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(cc Xach ) 2017-11-01T00:30:22Z stylewarning: my ASDF is getting confused by old software stored in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ 2017-11-01T00:30:22Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-01T00:30:57Z Xach: 2017-11-01T00:31:10Z Xach: stylewarning: don't put quicklisp in an asdf tree is one option. 2017-11-01T00:31:25Z Xach: stylewarning: but another option is (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")) 2017-11-01T00:31:33Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-01T00:32:06Z dsevilla quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T00:32:16Z stylewarning: Xach: I'm trying to not use Quicklisp in a build environment, and instead depend on Quicklisp already having downloaded things. 2017-11-01T00:32:29Z stylewarning: So it's true, I did put it in the tree. 2017-11-01T00:32:40Z Xach: stylewarning: making bundles is an option in that case 2017-11-01T00:33:05Z Xach zzz sorry 2017-11-01T00:40:08Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2017-11-01T00:41:26Z Ellenor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiX34L1MCAU 2017-11-01T00:41:29Z stylewarning: Xach: thanks 2017-11-01T00:48:44Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-01T00:55:27Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:00:45Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:03:05Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-01T01:03:18Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-01T01:06:00Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:06:22Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-01T01:06:49Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:08:58Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-01T01:27:52Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T01:28:18Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:34:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:35:41Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T01:41:15Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-01T01:42:57Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T01:43:47Z krator44 is now known as kreator420 2017-11-01T01:44:08Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:48:49Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:49:20Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T01:50:48Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:51:07Z aautcsh joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:51:43Z chens joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:53:54Z aautcsh quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-01T01:55:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-01T01:57:51Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T01:58:52Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:00:56Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:00:56Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-01T02:08:01Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T02:15:03Z aautcsh joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:15:23Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:16:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:31:42Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:34:13Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:36:03Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:40:47Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T02:43:57Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T02:45:39Z aautcsh quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I know I can do slime-interactive-eval but that doesn't happen in the evaluation window but in the minibuffer itself 2017-11-01T06:06:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T06:07:01Z krwq: s/evaluation window/slime window/ 2017-11-01T06:08:33Z glamas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T06:11:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-01T06:13:28Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-01T06:13:34Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T06:14:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T06:18:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-01T06:19:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T06:19:30Z megalography quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-01T06:22:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T06:27:52Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-01T06:28:07Z krwq: I guess: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (swank:create-server :port 9999 :style nil)) kinda works and then just connect :P 2017-11-01T06:32:29Z SuperJen quit (Remote 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2017-11-01T09:43:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T09:53:56Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-01T10:10:46Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-01T10:14:34Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T10:19:56Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T10:21:21Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T10:22:55Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-01T10:22:58Z jmercouris: how can one load an ASD system outside of slime? 2017-11-01T10:23:10Z jmercouris: Is it necessary to make a "load.lisp" file? 2017-11-01T10:24:56Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-11-01T10:25:53Z jackdaniel: (asdf:load-asd "/path/to/file.asd") 2017-11-01T10:26:00Z jackdaniel: (asdf:load-system :system-name) 2017-11-01T10:26:16Z jackdaniel: or if file.asd is already findable by asdf, just (asdf:load-system :system-name) 2017-11-01T10:26:21Z jmercouris: okay, so maybe having a load.lisp file is usually easier for the user 2017-11-01T10:26:41Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T10:26:42Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: assuming they've moved it to their ~/common-lisp directory, or however they've configured it 2017-11-01T10:28:15Z jackdaniel: then (asdf:load-system :foo) should be enough 2017-11-01T10:28:57Z jmercouris: yep, ok, cool, thank you 2017-11-01T10:29:11Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-01T10:29:28Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T10:31:04Z shka: jmercouris: does slime has some sort of feature just for system loading? 2017-11-01T10:31:11Z jmercouris: shka: correct 2017-11-01T10:31:21Z shka: oh 2017-11-01T10:31:31Z shka: how is it called? 2017-11-01T10:31:38Z jmercouris: shka: you have to enable it: https://github.com/jmercouris/configuration/blob/master/.emacs.d/develop/_lisp.el 2017-11-01T10:31:55Z jmercouris: and then you type in M-x slime-load-system 2017-11-01T10:34:00Z shka: cool 2017-11-01T10:39:27Z krator44 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T10:40:12Z 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Is there any conforming way to have 2 files, each with a DEFPACKAGE form using the same package name, with the only difference being symbols they export? 2017-11-01T13:08:01Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:08:01Z Cymew: Why would you want that? Am I lacking in imagination again? 2017-11-01T13:08:12Z beach: mfiano: That's not the typical scenario. The typical scenario is that you have loaded your code, then you decide to add or remove a symbol from a package, and load the file again. 2017-11-01T13:08:41Z mfiano: I understand that. The question was about conformity 2017-11-01T13:09:09Z beach: clhs make-package 2017-11-01T13:09:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm 2017-11-01T13:09:32Z Bike: you can have the files, of course, but if you execute two different defpackage forms for the same name (without deleting the package in the interim, etc) the consequences are undefined yeah. 2017-11-01T13:11:10Z mfiano: Bike: Thanks. 2017-11-01T13:13:10Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:13:41Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:20:01Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:24:40Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:28:30Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-01T13:29:29Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:31:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:33:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:34:23Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:34:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:36:11Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-01T13:36:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:38:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:39:25Z MrBismuth quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-11-01T13:40:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:40:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:44:53Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:47:40Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:51:43Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T13:52:09Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:54:41Z mercourisj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T13:56:25Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:58:40Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T13:58:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T14:00:02Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-01T14:02:16Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T14:04:24Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Of course, implementers will rather do what the users want. So usually, you get practical results, if different from one implementation to the other. If you definitely want to redefine packages with specific semantics, you can always use your own defpackage macro, instead of cl:defpackage. 2017-11-01T15:49:13Z pjb: cf. eg. https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/package-mac.lisp#L159 2017-11-01T15:49:19Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T15:52:52Z nopf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T15:54:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T15:55:54Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T15:57:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:01:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:06:05Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T16:07:34Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T16:07:59Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-01T16:08:34Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T16:10:19Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:11:32Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:11:42Z mrottenkolber quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-01T16:14:10Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:14:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:15:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T16:17:20Z jfrancis quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-01T16:19:38Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T16:20:15Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:21:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T16:22:31Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:23:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-01T16:27:17Z Guest82369 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I've seen Android Java libs and IOS libs 2017-11-01T18:26:17Z jmercouris: emaczen: I literally just told you run nmap in external process 2017-11-01T18:26:41Z jmercouris: emaczen: It will work, I don't know what advantage you'd get from doing it in pure lisp, these tools are complex to write 2017-11-01T18:27:08Z jdz: What does it even mean "a device on LAN"? 2017-11-01T18:27:09Z _death: could also fetch it from the router 2017-11-01T18:27:27Z jmercouris: jdz: Any device with an ip assigned to it by a router 2017-11-01T18:27:39Z jmercouris: Well, assigned or not assigned, but you know what I mean, handshake complete type deal 2017-11-01T18:27:49Z jdz: jmercouris: so DHCP? 2017-11-01T18:27:55Z jmercouris: jdz: Sure 2017-11-01T18:28:03Z jdz: What about static addresses? 2017-11-01T18:28:17Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T18:28:21Z jmercouris: jdz: I said assigned or NOT assigned, also you can have dhcp with self assigned ip, so that is a moot point 2017-11-01T18:28:50Z nzst joined #lisp 2017-11-01T18:28:51Z jdz: What I was trying to say is that this whole "device on LAN" is a moot point. 2017-11-01T18:29:46Z jdz: emaczen: I might suggest looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance 2017-11-01T18:30:35Z emaczen: jdz: Ok, I'll check it out 2017-11-01T18:31:26Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-11-01T18:31:51Z shrdlu68: emaczen: You could broadcast pings. 2017-11-01T18:32:52Z trn quit (Quit: quit) 2017-11-01T18:33:01Z shrdlu68: *But apparently that may not work. 2017-11-01T18:33:08Z emaczen: I think I used the wrong terminology 2017-11-01T18:33:52Z shrdlu68: Let me guess, you want to discover interfaces? 2017-11-01T18:34:56Z emaczen: How do I programatically find all devices connected to my router? If every router configuration page is different then I can't just get the HTML 2017-11-01T18:35:58Z shka: emaczen: how is it related to lisp? 2017-11-01T18:36:44Z emaczen: shka: it seems that a lot of languages have some particular library 2017-11-01T18:37:47Z emaczen: As lisp programmers we all probably prefer a more lisp way of doing things. Google provides the mainstream way of doing things 2017-11-01T18:38:07Z emaczen: I'm finding out there is no simple solution... 2017-11-01T18:38:15Z Bike: you're talking about network stuff. not likely to be anything specifically lispish about it 2017-11-01T18:38:57Z shrdlu68: emaczen: I'd look into how host discovery is done. You could resursively ping a subnet. 2017-11-01T18:39:52Z SaganMan quit (Quit: laters) 2017-11-01T18:40:32Z Guest11104 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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However, whenever I try to eval something in the slime repl which invokes the database through postmodern (which normally runs fine when executed other code), I get some error: either that I'm not connected to the database (somewhat undestandable), or, for some reason, now I'm getting an error 2017-11-01T19:26:24Z akr: basically saying that I'm not in the correct database schema) 2017-11-01T19:26:27Z akr: something that can be done about this? 2017-11-01T19:28:37Z jmercouris: akr: Maybe posting a full paste of your repl session, and your code could help 2017-11-01T19:29:14Z akr: hmm 2017-11-01T19:29:19Z akr: well I can't give you all of it 2017-11-01T19:30:02Z akr: and I'm not sure if I have enough time and/or care enough to make a system where you can reproduce this 2017-11-01T19:30:16Z akr: was just hoping that it's some common problem with an easy workaround :) 2017-11-01T19:30:28Z jmercouris: Perhaps there is, I was just trying to be helpful 2017-11-01T19:31:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-01T19:31:52Z dmiles: apply and funcall both evaluate the their arguments... is there a special operator (not macroexpand-1) that is supposed to do the right thing in the case of macros? 2017-11-01T19:32:30Z dlowe: dmiles: that's not possible conceptually. 2017-11-01T19:32:45Z dlowe: dmiles: actually, I take that back. EVAL works fine. 2017-11-01T19:33:05Z dmiles: yeah actually EVAL was the only thing that came to mind 2017-11-01T19:33:37Z dlowe: dmiles: typically, though, macros are just special compile-time functions that emit code and are not called again 2017-11-01T19:34:04Z akr: jmercouris: ok, I got it to work 2017-11-01T19:34:05Z dlowe: so calling one *during runtime* doesn't make much sense without invoking the whole of evaluation 2017-11-01T19:34:25Z akr: jmercouris: I just run the function that connects to the database in the repl 2017-11-01T19:34:40Z dlowe: Sometimes you can get the effect of a macro by wrapping it in a regular function. 2017-11-01T19:34:53Z akr: jmercouris: I still don't understand why I need to do this, though… 2017-11-01T19:35:30Z dmiles: dlowe: what i am doing is trying to do a "best effort" compile on code where the macro might get changed 2017-11-01T19:35:55Z dmiles: but alos i dont want to assume it is always a macro either 2017-11-01T19:36:08Z dlowe: dmiles: just put the macro(s) in its own file, then declare a dependency on the file 2017-11-01T19:36:24Z Bike: the compiler can assume macros won't change. rather, it makes no sense for them to be changed, compilation is partly defined as meaning all macros are expanded 2017-11-01T19:37:04Z dlowe: on some of my projects, I have a whole directory for compile-time effects, and my normal source directory depends on that 2017-11-01T19:37:22Z dlowe: so any time something changes in the compile-time dir, it recompiles the whole source dir 2017-11-01T19:37:37Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-01T19:37:52Z dmiles: smart dlowe 2017-11-01T19:39:03Z dmiles: well that is good that redefining macros isnt a user expectation 2017-11-01T19:39:50Z dmiles: i mean that a user doesnt expect to make their applications call defmaro and change everything 2017-11-01T19:40:34Z jmercouris: akr: You have to be connected to the database to execute an operation that touches the database 2017-11-01T19:41:16Z jmercouris: akr: Are you in the same package when executing functions that touch the database? 2017-11-01T19:41:30Z jmercouris: akr: Does your code perhaps rely on some variable that is not initialized? maybe something like *connection*? 2017-11-01T19:42:46Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-01T19:45:21Z aeth: Has quicklisp been fixed? Should I update yet? 2017-11-01T19:45:28Z jmercouris: aeth: when was it broken? 2017-11-01T19:45:56Z aeth: There was a release that broke one of the libraries due to some complex dependency chain, a couple of weeks ago or something? Maybe one week? 2017-11-01T19:47:19Z kuwze joined #lisp 2017-11-01T19:47:24Z aeth: oh, I think it was fixed a week ago 2017-11-01T19:47:28Z jmercouris: Xach: have you thought about perhaps turning quicklisp into an org so that others may more easily contribute? 2017-11-01T19:47:50Z aeth: Afaik, the broken release was unannounced and there's an announced 2017-10-23 release 2017-11-01T19:48:36Z kuwze: why can't I get my sorting function to work? https://gist.github.com/kuwze/45e1d446d5bf905223d2fa48e1164c7b 2017-11-01T19:48:52Z kuwze: does saving a list to a hashtable not preserve the order of the list 2017-11-01T19:50:56Z Bike: hashtables are unordered. 2017-11-01T19:50:59Z jmercouris: kuwze: A hashtable has no inherent order, there are some data structuers that do 2017-11-01T19:51:13Z jmercouris: kuwze: There is something called a linked hash table, or something like that, I can't remember the exact name 2017-11-01T19:51:29Z Bike: but maybe that's not what you're doing? 2017-11-01T19:51:32Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T19:51:48Z jmercouris: Bike: I don't know, I've looked at his code and I can't tell 2017-11-01T19:51:49Z dlowe: there are a lot of ways to construct a key-value mapping. 2017-11-01T19:52:05Z Bike: same 2017-11-01T19:52:29Z jack_rabbit: What's a simple way to convert a character to '(unsigned-byte 8) ? 2017-11-01T19:52:30Z shka: what exactly you are trying to do? 2017-11-01T19:52:45Z dlowe: kuwze: your predicate is not returning T or NIL, but only non-NIL 2017-11-01T19:52:46Z jack_rabbit: For some reason I can't remember and my google-fu is failing me. 2017-11-01T19:52:54Z kuwze: wait so if I save a list to a hashtable, it doesn't preserve the order of the list? 2017-11-01T19:52:57Z dlowe: kuwze: don't return the value 2017-11-01T19:52:57Z shka: kuwze: that is supposed to perform topological sort? 2017-11-01T19:53:09Z dlowe: kuwze: that's correct, the order is not preserved. 2017-11-01T19:53:25Z Bike: kuwze: depends on what you mean by "save to a hash table". if you're just putting the list into a hash table etrny, like (setf (gethash foo bar) the-list), the list is untouched 2017-11-01T19:53:39Z dlowe: kuwze: you can maintain an adjacent list of keys, or use an associative list instead of a hash table 2017-11-01T19:53:45Z Bike: jack_rabbit: there's char-code, but that depends on the local character encoding and other junk 2017-11-01T19:53:58Z kuwze: Bike: that is what I am trying to do 2017-11-01T19:54:02Z jmercouris: kuwze: Ordered dictionary is the term I was looking for, not sure an implementation of that type exists in lisp 2017-11-01T19:54:19Z kuwze: jmercouris: thanks, I'll look into that 2017-11-01T19:54:39Z Bike: kuwze: the list will still be ordered then. 2017-11-01T19:54:55Z Bike: hash tables being unordered means that the different keys in a hash table have no order with respect to each other. 2017-11-01T19:55:05Z Bike: just being used as a value /in/ a hash table doesn't do anythiing 2017-11-01T19:55:19Z kuwze: Bike: huh, it doesn't seem to be working. Is my sort function right? I am expanding on #'(lambda (x y) (> x y) x y) 2017-11-01T19:55:29Z dlowe: I JUST SAID IT WASN'T RIGHT. 2017-11-01T19:55:30Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-01T19:55:31Z fiveop quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-01T19:55:50Z dlowe flips his desk over. 2017-11-01T19:55:55Z kuwze: dlowe: sorry :( 2017-11-01T19:56:14Z karswell_ is now known as karswell 2017-11-01T19:56:20Z Bike: kuwze: dlowe is right. your predicate should return t or nil, not the value that's greater. 2017-11-01T19:56:21Z jmercouris soothes kuwze 2017-11-01T19:56:38Z Bike: this is why you can do (sort thing #'> ...) 2017-11-01T19:56:58Z Bike: in fact, your sort could be written as (sort buckets #'> :key #'long-count-percent) 2017-11-01T19:57:49Z dlowe: kuwze: it's okay. 2017-11-01T19:58:45Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-01T19:59:46Z akr: jmercouris: okay, I think when I get inside the package I get the second error 2017-11-01T19:59:54Z akr: about wrong schema 2017-11-01T20:00:22Z kuwze: dlowe, jmercouris, Bike: thank you for your help 2017-11-01T20:01:01Z akr: jmercouris: no, not at all 2017-11-01T20:03:21Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-01T20:14:30Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:15:29Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T20:15:55Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T20:23:17Z oleo is now known as oleo2 2017-11-01T20:24:36Z oleo2 is now known as oleo 2017-11-01T20:26:42Z kuwze: can I create empty classes? like (defclass order-book (book))? 2017-11-01T20:27:11Z kuwze: it seems like I can't 2017-11-01T20:28:02Z Bike: with no slots? sure. 2017-11-01T20:28:06Z Bike: (defclass order-book (book) ()) 2017-11-01T20:28:15Z Bike: no direct slots, rather 2017-11-01T20:32:25Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-11-01T20:37:11Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:38:12Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:41:41Z jmercouris: kuwze: You need to make sure you include all of the elements required, you might want to start slime- as you're typing, it'll show the full signature of whatever you're working on 2017-11-01T20:43:05Z jmercouris: kuwze: when I say it'll show the full signature, I mean in the echo status area 2017-11-01T20:43:16Z jmercouris: It'll even "bold" the current element you are at 2017-11-01T20:43:28Z Bike: yeah, should be something like "(defclass class-name (&rest superclasses) (&rest slot-definitions) &rest options)" 2017-11-01T20:43:56Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:44:36Z EvW1 quit (Quit: EvW1) 2017-11-01T20:44:55Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:45:27Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T20:50:48Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:55:03Z angular_mike___ quit 2017-11-01T20:55:22Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T20:56:29Z angular_mike___ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:57:21Z angular_mike___ quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-01T20:57:48Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:58:12Z Guest62760 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T20:58:39Z Guest62760 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:58:48Z angular_mike___ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T20:59:14Z angular_mike___ quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-01T21:00:30Z akr left #lisp 2017-11-01T21:01:18Z angular_mike joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:06:27Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:10:16Z jackdaniel: if anyone is interested whenever I have succeeded with ellipses algebra for McCLIM, here are some screenshots: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/925830846787063808 2017-11-01T21:18:42Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:19:39Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:19:43Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Congratulations! 2017-11-01T21:21:44Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:23:48Z Murii quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-01T21:24:12Z kuwze: wait so methods can only be declared after the class declaration? 2017-11-01T21:24:47Z jack_rabbit: why does flexi-streams use flexi-streams:octet instead of '(unsigned-byte 8) ? 2017-11-01T21:25:14Z shrdlu68: jack_rabbit: Probably deftyped. 2017-11-01T21:25:19Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:25:45Z jack_rabbit: I have another library that checks stream-element-type and doesn't like it. 2017-11-01T21:25:57Z jack_rabbit: It expects (unsigned-byte 8) 2017-11-01T21:27:40Z Guest15573 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-01T21:28:33Z Bike: checks stream-element-type directly? like the type specifier? those should be compared with a type= function, not just EQUAL 2017-11-01T21:29:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:29:08Z jack_rabbit: mmmmm. I should file a PR. 2017-11-01T21:30:12Z jack_rabbit: https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/blob/master/src/digests/digest.lisp#L18-L19 2017-11-01T21:30:18Z jack_rabbit: ^The issue 2017-11-01T21:30:30Z shrdlu68: I ran into something like this a while back, let me check the logs. 2017-11-01T21:32:06Z shrdlu68: jack_rabbit: And froydnj/ironclad is no longer maintained, the new repo is sharplispers/ironclad. 2017-11-01T21:33:05Z jack_rabbit: hmmm. is there a new website? The one I found still points at the old repo: http://method-combination.net/lisp/ironclad/ 2017-11-01T21:33:53Z shrdlu68: Old documentation. 2017-11-01T21:34:38Z shrdlu68: I can't find the issue in the logs, but I worked with octet vectors with ironclad in cl-tls without an issue. 2017-11-01T21:34:52Z jack_rabbit shrugs 2017-11-01T21:35:03Z jack_rabbit: The error is coming from the QL version 2017-11-01T21:35:34Z shrdlu68: It ought to be a simple-array. 2017-11-01T21:35:59Z jack_rabbit: but the sharplispers code is different than what I have locally: https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad/blob/master/src/digests/digest.lisp#L17 2017-11-01T21:36:28Z shrdlu68: It's several commits ahead. Clone that repo and use it instead. 2017-11-01T21:36:39Z shrdlu68: Last I checked it still wasn't in quicklisp. 2017-11-01T21:37:08Z shrdlu68: s/several/several dozen/ 2017-11-01T21:38:04Z jack_rabbit: Running a QL update. It looks like the code changed ~7 months ago. 2017-11-01T21:38:16Z jack_rabbit: in the repo. Hopefully that change made it in. 2017-11-01T21:38:34Z jack_rabbit: Aha! It did. 2017-11-01T21:40:57Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:41:24Z jack_rabbit: shrdlu68, thanks for the tips. 2017-11-01T21:42:06Z shrdlu68: You're welcome. 2017-11-01T21:44:09Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:44:50Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:45:09Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:48:58Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:49:27Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:49:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:50:16Z Ven is now known as Guest26819 2017-11-01T21:53:57Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:55:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:55:28Z cmatei joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:56:20Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-11-01T21:56:55Z kuwze quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:57:58Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-01T22:09:47Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:14:53Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:15:56Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:16:57Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-01T22:23:57Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:25:11Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T22:28:27Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:28:57Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T22:29:44Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:30:15Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:32:07Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-01T22:33:13Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:34:25Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:41:08Z _krator44 is now known as krator44 2017-11-01T22:41:38Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2017-11-01T22:41:38Z krator44 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:41:38Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2017-11-01T22:41:38Z krator44 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:47:14Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:48:27Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-01T22:53:17Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:54:00Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T22:56:49Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T22:57:29Z Guest26819 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-01T22:57:54Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-01T22:58:04Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T22:58:55Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-11-01T23:04:38Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T23:05:57Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:06:05Z oleo2 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-01T23:07:00Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-01T23:07:12Z jmercouris: How does the lisp community feel about the usage of the word "self": (defmethod some-method ((self some-class) arg1)? 2017-11-01T23:08:04Z pjb: I use it sometimes. But in general, it's prefered to use more meaningful names. Notably because they're multi-methods: dispatching is also performed on arg1! 2017-11-01T23:14:27Z vsync: "thing" seems a much better general-purpose arg than "self" 2017-11-01T23:14:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T23:14:52Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-01T23:15:21Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:15:47Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2017-11-01T23:16:00Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:18:31Z injunjoe joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:19:15Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T23:27:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T23:28:14Z pjb: vsync: well, self has the good advantage of being "standard" across several OOP languages, including Smalltalk. 2017-11-01T23:28:15Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:28:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T23:31:01Z aeth: Usually I do (defmethod some-method ((some-class some-class) arg1) ...) 2017-11-01T23:31:27Z aeth: And (defmethod some-method ((some-class-1 some-class) (some-class-2 some-class)) ...) if there are two 2017-11-01T23:32:01Z pjb: aeth: it's an easy solution, but I don't like it, unless some-class is some generic type such as string, integer, vector, etc, and the method implements some generic algorithm. 2017-11-01T23:32:41Z pjb: eg. I'd prefer (defmethod prefixp ((prefix string) (text string)) …) 2017-11-01T23:33:09Z pjb: and: (defmethod prefixp ((prefix list) (text vector)) …) 2017-11-01T23:33:25Z pjb: Perhaps a good way to find nice names, is to use defgeneric. 2017-11-01T23:34:02Z pjb: (defgeneric prefixp (prefix sequence)) ; then you would reuse those parameter names for consistency (or not). 2017-11-01T23:34:25Z aeth: I am not particularly polymorphic, especially on built-ins. One issue for array-heavy code is that subtypes of array are usually not their own class, e.g. you can't dispatch on an array of (unsigned-byte 8)s of length 4 or length '(4 4) or something. 2017-11-01T23:35:29Z aeth: It's not as convenient as if e.g. each subtype is also a subclass with typechecking for the element types even if storage is not optimized. 2017-11-01T23:35:42Z injunjoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-01T23:37:16Z aeth: and for custom CLOS classes, most code I write is very specific to a specific class, so I just write a function 2017-11-01T23:37:29Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:38:20Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:40:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-01T23:41:58Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:45:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:46:06Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:47:42Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T23:49:01Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T23:49:35Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:51:40Z aeth: pjb: what code have you written that heavily uses polymorphism? 2017-11-01T23:51:58Z pjb: For example, my lambda-list parser. 2017-11-01T23:52:01Z aeth: Almost every time I've written a method, I've later regretted it because it turns out to be pretty specific. 2017-11-01T23:52:50Z injunjoe joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:52:53Z aeth: The only time I did a lot of this was handling different kinds of trees and nodes. 2017-11-01T23:53:00Z pjb: But most of the CLOS code I work with has at least two layers of inheritance. 2017-11-01T23:53:15Z Bike: working with trees is a pretty broad space 2017-11-01T23:53:16Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-01T23:55:41Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-01T23:55:49Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-01T23:56:45Z aeth: Bike: right, but if you use CLOS classes for trees and nodes in that tree, then the simplest thing to do is to use defmethod to use the same name for the tree and the node, e.g. remove* or insert or find* or size or height. So e.g. height on the tree just calls height on the root node. etc. 2017-11-01T23:57:11Z Bike: you can have different kinds of nodes 2017-11-01T23:57:14Z aeth: Definitely not required. They could be implemented with anything, and you could have non-generic prefixed functions instead. It just... really explodes the namespace once you have more than one tree 2017-11-01T23:57:16Z Bike: (this is what i usually work with) 2017-11-01T23:57:54Z aeth: bar-insert, bar-node-insert, foo-insert, foo-node-insert, etc., vs insert for everything. 2017-11-01T23:58:35Z aeth: Bike: so what you're saying is that you only have one tree and what tree it is depends on the nodes it has, e.g. binary-node? 2017-11-01T23:58:57Z Bike: no, i'm saying there's a tree with various kinds of nodes in it 2017-11-01T23:59:27Z aeth: so e.g. binary-node could have an oct-node as a child? 2017-11-01T23:59:41Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-02T00:00:19Z Bike: binary-mode is already too general, but sure, why not 2017-11-02T00:01:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:04:12Z edgar-rft goes out to the garden to work with an apple tree 2017-11-02T00:17:11Z pillton: Wouldn't the lisp way be 'instance'? As in initialize-instance. 2017-11-02T00:18:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T00:19:27Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T00:19:42Z pillton: The problem I have with 'self' and instance is what it implies about the operator. 2017-11-02T00:22:35Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:22:53Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-11-02T00:22:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:25:25Z pjb: pillton: sometimes you want this implication. 2017-11-02T00:27:53Z _death: clos is hard, let's go smalltalk 2017-11-02T00:28:00Z pillton: pjb: Sure, but it should raise a flag about it being a generic function. 2017-11-02T00:28:53Z pillton: The dot notation of other languages and generic functions are very different things. 2017-11-02T00:33:12Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-02T00:34:28Z pjb: In all languages, the OOP notation is used for something else. Even in Smalltalk! o m:a is a synchronous function call which returns a result, while the intent was an asynchronous message send. So if I want to perform "asynchronous message sends" in CL by writing (m o a) and using self for the o argument, I don't see why not. 2017-11-02T00:35:09Z pjb: Good night. 2017-11-02T00:38:50Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T00:39:46Z _death: sure.. more often than not, however, years of using and reading about message passing give an easy path to a design, which may be different, perhaps suboptimal to one based on generic functions 2017-11-02T00:40:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:40:22Z _death: and in any case, there's no need to force CLOS-mindedness everywhere :) 2017-11-02T00:43:06Z pillton: pjb: Good night. 2017-11-02T00:43:28Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:46:37Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:49:50Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T00:57:50Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-11-02T00:57:52Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-11-02T00:59:27Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T00:59:44Z Guest62760 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T01:00:12Z Guest62760 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:00:59Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:01:47Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:04:34Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-02T01:05:14Z patche joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:07:15Z sabrac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T01:07:39Z sabrac joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:10:50Z patche quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-02T01:11:07Z patche joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:11:07Z patche is now known as scb 2017-11-02T01:15:17Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:22:35Z scb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T01:26:04Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T01:26:05Z dim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-02T01:29:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T01:30:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:31:35Z HazWard joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:32:09Z dim joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:34:12Z HazWard: When checking the equality of 2 lists are the values inside nested lists handled. i.e.: if I have a list like this '(23 (9 (5)) (18 9 (45 14 27))) will equality hold for the values inside the nested list or does Lisp just look at the top-level list? 2017-11-02T01:34:54Z Bike: depends on the equality predicate 2017-11-02T01:35:01Z Bike: it does for tree-equal, but basically not for the rest 2017-11-02T01:35:35Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T01:36:10Z scb joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:39:04Z HazWard: Bike: hmm I'll try that, and is there a place where we can see the actual implementation of the code? I'm use the Java and I often use grepcode to understand what the built-in libraries do and how they work behind the scenes 2017-11-02T01:39:20Z Bike: get the source for your implementation, i guess 2017-11-02T01:39:30Z Bike: if you use SLIME, you can use M-. to jump to the definition of any function 2017-11-02T01:40:05Z Bike: including in the standard library, though occasionally it won't work, for example it might be hard to understand the definition of eq 2017-11-02T01:40:15Z Bike: that said, the standard's definitions of eq, eql, equal, equalp are all very explicit 2017-11-02T01:40:38Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:42:39Z scb quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-02T01:44:40Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:45:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T01:47:15Z glamas quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T01:50:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T01:52:13Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T01:56:52Z Guest62760 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T02:08:55Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-02T02:10:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:14:26Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:15:46Z drmeister: Does SHARED-INITIALIZE get its name because it is shared by several other initialization methods? 2017-11-02T02:16:13Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:16:42Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:18:12Z drmeister: If I want to calculate a slot value after all the other slots are initialized by any way an instance is initialized I write an :after method on shared-initialize. (sorry to ask this one again). 2017-11-02T02:18:17Z Bike: yeah, it's used by initialize-instance, as well as reinitialize- 2017-11-02T02:18:53Z Bike: and also update-instance-for-redefind/different-class 2017-11-02T02:18:58Z drmeister: Got it - thank you. 2017-11-02T02:20:46Z Bike: one thing is that shared-initialize can be used to initialize only a subset of slots, as indicated by the second argument 2017-11-02T02:20:50Z Bike: so that should be paid attention to 2017-11-02T02:21:43Z iqubic_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:21:48Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:21:50Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:23:10Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:26:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T02:26:30Z drmeister: Hmmmm? 2017-11-02T02:26:42Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:26:51Z drmeister: Reading 2017-11-02T02:30:10Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:30:29Z drmeister: Is it something that I need to pay attention to? That if the second argument is a list of slot names and the slot that I want to initialize is not in that set - that I should not initialize it? 2017-11-02T02:31:02Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:31:04Z Bike: yeah 2017-11-02T02:31:34Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-02T02:35:00Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T02:35:47Z lrvy joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:36:54Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:37:41Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T02:37:51Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:39:57Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:43:11Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T02:46:18Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:48:09Z ym joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:52:35Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:52:59Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:53:04Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T02:54:37Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:58:54Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T02:59:12Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:00:40Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T03:01:02Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:04:41Z turkja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T03:10:03Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:10:59Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-02T03:11:22Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:11:40Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:13:14Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:15:30Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T03:15:55Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:17:47Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:17:53Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T03:20:27Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T03:20:39Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-02T03:24:50Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-02T03:26:12Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:46:48Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-02T03:50:48Z patche joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:52:13Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:57:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T03:59:41Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T04:00:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:01:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:02:04Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-02T04:03:11Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:04:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:07:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:08:27Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:10:10Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:10:47Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T04:14:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:15:14Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T04:18:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-02T04:19:35Z nonlinear left #lisp 2017-11-02T04:20:04Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:22:42Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:24:33Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:24:53Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T04:25:16Z patche joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:25:53Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:27:29Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:30:41Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:41:37Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T04:42:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:42:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:47:10Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T04:52:25Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-11-02T04:52:54Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:01:53Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:02:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:06:00Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:07:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:11:52Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T05:12:51Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:13:41Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-02T05:14:09Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:21:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:21:03Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:24:04Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:24:55Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:25:36Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T05:26:17Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:26:52Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:26:56Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:27:17Z knobo: How can I make a top level symbol alias? 2017-11-02T05:27:29Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:28:23Z pillton: I'm pretty sure it is implementation dependent. 2017-11-02T05:28:52Z knobo: I remember I have done it before. 2017-11-02T05:30:19Z beach: What is a "symbol alias". 2017-11-02T05:30:25Z beach: Do you mean a symbol macro? 2017-11-02T05:30:45Z beach: clhs define-symbol-macro 2017-11-02T05:30:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 2017-11-02T05:32:26Z knobo: yes, it is that simple... 2017-11-02T05:33:04Z beach: What do you mean? 2017-11-02T05:33:58Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:34:02Z knobo: I mean that it was define-symbol-macro I was looking for. 2017-11-02T05:34:25Z knobo: Is it ok if I blame it on not drinking my coffee yet? 2017-11-02T05:34:51Z pillton: Take care with the word alias. 2017-11-02T05:35:07Z knobo: ok. 2017-11-02T05:35:49Z zmt01 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:36:07Z zmt01 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T05:37:57Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:41:09Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:43:40Z earl-ducaine: Hi Lispiacs! Looking for advice about getting a project hosted on quicklisp, esp any prep work that should be done and how to make the request. 2017-11-02T05:44:38Z SaganMan: oh nice, I'm still new here. What's the project about earl-ducaine? 2017-11-02T05:47:17Z earl-ducaine: It's actually any ancient one, Garnet. 2017-11-02T05:47:48Z earl-ducaine: Converted it to asdf, and fixed some minor bugs for sbcl, 2017-11-02T05:48:33Z earl-ducaine: Even though it's quite old it's still the most complete (that I know of ) all CL gui toolkit. 2017-11-02T05:48:58Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:49:42Z earl-ducaine: I have some time in the comming weeks and I'm hoping I can generate some interest by other Lisp hackers. 2017-11-02T05:50:59Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:51:00Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T05:52:07Z earl-ducaine: SaganMan https://github.com/earl-ducaine/cl-garnet.git is the project that I'm maintaining (if my inept hacking can be called that) 2017-11-02T05:53:26Z earl-ducaine: https://sourceforge.net/p/garnetlisp/svn/HEAD/tree/ is the official (non asdf) that's still lightly maintained. 2017-11-02T05:54:08Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:54:16Z burtons joined #lisp 2017-11-02T05:55:17Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T05:55:22Z burtons: Does anyone know when it means when the error "Input sequence(s) for parallelization not found." when trying to run lparallel::pmap? 2017-11-02T05:55:44Z burtons: I'm pretty sure I have my kernel setup properly following the instructions. 2017-11-02T05:56:47Z burtons: n/m, I just missed the first argument. 2017-11-02T05:57:34Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T05:58:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:01:55Z XachX: earl-ducaine: see the faq 2017-11-02T06:02:29Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T06:02:41Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T06:03:41Z injunjoe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T06:04:38Z malcom2073 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-11-02T06:05:44Z malcom2073 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:06:11Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T06:11:04Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:12:02Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T06:13:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T06:17:25Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:18:11Z akkad left #lisp 2017-11-02T06:21:18Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T06:25:41Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T06:27:16Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:31:15Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:32:05Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:36:08Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T06:36:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:37:53Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:38:53Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-02T06:39:22Z pjb is now known as Guest87374 2017-11-02T06:39:23Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-02T06:39:56Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:41:15Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:41:16Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T06:41:33Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T06:41:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:42:08Z d4ryus2 is now known as d4ryus 2017-11-02T06:42:38Z Guest87374 is now known as pjb` 2017-11-02T06:42:51Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-02T06:43:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:44:13Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T06:45:34Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:49:04Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T06:49:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T06:51:15Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T06:55:23Z jackdaniel: earl-ducaine: congrats on ressureting it! I'll try it later today 2017-11-02T06:58:50Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:03:05Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:03:41Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:04:24Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:06:20Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:08:28Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:10:17Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:14:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T07:15:26Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:22:28Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-02T07:25:00Z SaganMan: earl-ducaine: nice 2017-11-02T07:25:30Z SaganMan: earl-ducaine: you did a good deed 2017-11-02T07:25:37Z SaganMan: here's some karma for you 2017-11-02T07:25:41Z SaganMan: earl-ducaine++ 2017-11-02T07:25:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:26:30Z klosnetllc1 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:30:35Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:30:36Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T07:36:24Z beach: earl-ducaine: I haven't looked at it yet, so I don't know whether you are right that it is the "most complete all CL gui toolkit". But I would like to point out that McCLIM is quite usable as well. 2017-11-02T07:36:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:37:35Z shka: beach: hey 2017-11-02T07:37:42Z shka: i have a question for you 2017-11-02T07:38:12Z shka: you mentioned that you were able to approximate performance of your GF dispatch algorithm using simulation 2017-11-02T07:39:02Z shka: do you have an article that explains whole process? 2017-11-02T07:39:18Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-02T07:40:37Z shka: the whole process even 2017-11-02T07:45:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:46:05Z yCrazyEdd joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:46:42Z beach: shka: Yes, it's the ELS paper. 2017-11-02T07:47:24Z beach: shka: But now we have hard evidence too, because scymtym implemented it for SBCL, and drmeister implemented it for Clasp. 2017-11-02T07:47:56Z beach: shka: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf 2017-11-02T07:48:07Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:49:11Z shka: beach: yeah, i know, i just want to learn how to make simulations like this 2017-11-02T07:49:21Z beach: Oh, I did nothing special. 2017-11-02T07:50:04Z shka: you did nothing special for you 2017-11-02T07:50:13Z beach: I just took a reasonable representation of an object, implemented a slot reader in SBCL according to this technique. Then I compared the execution time with that of SBCL. 2017-11-02T07:51:22Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:51:48Z shka: well, ok 2017-11-02T07:52:32Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T07:52:32Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:53:15Z klosnetllc1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T07:53:22Z beach: In fact, that part makes the paper somewhat weak in that there is no hard evidence that it is faster. But now, it has been shown independently. 2017-11-02T07:53:45Z shka: well, yes 2017-11-02T07:54:22Z shka: i was just under impression that you methodology was somewhat more clever, but i guess that works 2017-11-02T07:54:39Z beach: The referees thought so. :) 2017-11-02T07:54:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T07:58:05Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T08:02:36Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:03:21Z beach: On the positive side, that means another paper can be published by scymtym and yet another one by drmeister. 2017-11-02T08:05:21Z shka: yeah 2017-11-02T08:05:58Z shka: because more papers is exactly what we need 2017-11-02T08:06:12Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T08:06:33Z vic1 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:07:01Z vic1: Would sbcl be the fastest compile to use for building web frameworks? 2017-11-02T08:07:11Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:07:18Z shka: what? 2017-11-02T08:07:48Z shka: CCL seems to have fastest compiler 2017-11-02T08:08:13Z shka: got to go 2017-11-02T08:09:59Z beach: vic1: I don't think this kind of application influences the choice of a compiler. 2017-11-02T08:10:27Z beach: vic1: My guess is that the performance such an application depends more on the operating system and such. 2017-11-02T08:11:40Z beach: vic1: But, yeah, SBCL is know to be the one that generates the fastest code in most cases. The CCL compiler is known to be faster, but the code generated is not quite as good as that of SBCL. Or at least, that's what I often hear. 2017-11-02T08:15:13Z didi joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:15:39Z didi: Is there a difference between (lambda ...) and #'(lambda ...)? 2017-11-02T08:16:17Z beach: didi: LAMBDA is a macro so that (lambda ...) expands to #'(lambda ...) in a context of evaluation. 2017-11-02T08:17:19Z didi: beach: Hum. Thanks. 2017-11-02T08:17:50Z beach: You don't sound convinced. 2017-11-02T08:18:05Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T08:19:31Z didi: beach: I need to think about it. I just tested, and yes, (lambda nil nil) -> #'(lambda () nil), but I need to think about what it means practically. For example, I know (mapcar 'fn ...) and (mapcar #'fn ...) invoke different actions if FN is defined with FLET. 2017-11-02T08:20:04Z beach: Correct, but that is an orthogonal issue. 2017-11-02T08:20:10Z didi: Indeed. 2017-11-02T08:20:35Z beach: After all, you asked about (lambda ...) vs #'(lambda ...), not about '(lambda ...) vs #'(lambda ...). 2017-11-02T08:21:42Z didi: Sure. But I am trying to figure out if (lambda ...) and #'(lambda ...) will ever give me different behaviors. And I didn't think about '(lambda ...); I think I've never used it like that. 2017-11-02T08:22:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:22:22Z beach: In a context of evaluation, they mean the same thing, but there are other contexts where they don't. 2017-11-02T08:22:29Z didi: oic 2017-11-02T08:22:42Z beach: For instance, you can say ((lambda (x) (+ x 2)) 234) 2017-11-02T08:22:55Z beach: But not (#'(lambda (x) (+ x 2)) 234) 2017-11-02T08:23:03Z didi: Ah, interesting. Thank you. 2017-11-02T08:23:19Z beach: Here the lambda expression is not in a context of evaluation. 2017-11-02T08:24:12Z didi: Interesting. 2017-11-02T08:26:38Z beach: My guess is that, as a first-level approximation, you should always use (lambda ...) with no #'. 2017-11-02T08:26:49Z didi: Understood. 2017-11-02T08:27:41Z beach: first-order, rather. 2017-11-02T08:28:29Z didi: PCL uses #' for its lambdas in chapter 3, so I wondered. 2017-11-02T08:28:47Z aa_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:29:04Z beach: I think the macro was introduced late in the process, so older code uses #'. 2017-11-02T08:29:20Z didi: I see. 2017-11-02T08:29:21Z loke: didi: #' is short for (function ...), now, LAMBDA is actually a macro that expands to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) 2017-11-02T08:29:54Z didi: loke: Thanks. I understand it now. Tho SBCL expands it to #'(lambda ...), which might be the same thing. 2017-11-02T08:30:06Z loke: That is why you can write (lambda () 'foo). That just expands to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA () 'FOO)), which happes to be equivalent to #'(LAMBDA () 'FOO) 2017-11-02T08:30:12Z beach: didi: #' is a reader macro. 2017-11-02T08:30:26Z pjb: didi: the important point here is that macros are expanded only when they are in evaluation position! 2017-11-02T08:30:28Z beach: didi: The SBCL printer, when it sees (function ...) prints #'... instead. 2017-11-02T08:30:38Z didi: beach: oic 2017-11-02T08:30:43Z didi: pjb: Thank you. 2017-11-02T08:30:49Z pjb: In ((lambda (x) x) 42) the lambda expression is not in evaluation position, so no macro is expanded there. 2017-11-02T08:30:59Z pjb: It's the case "Symbol" in clhs lambda 2017-11-02T08:31:02Z didi: That's a good point. 2017-11-02T08:31:27Z vic1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T08:31:32Z pjb: and of course, quote prevents evaluation, so '(lambda (x) x) is just a list. 2017-11-02T08:31:43Z pjb: (returns just a list). 2017-11-02T08:32:09Z didi: Yeah, `mapcar' barfed at me when I tried feeding it '(lambda ...). 2017-11-02T08:36:21Z aa_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T08:37:09Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:38:21Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:38:28Z whathappened joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:38:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:39:01Z whathappened: Has clisp been abandoned ? 2017-11-02T08:41:52Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T08:42:02Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:43:08Z loke: whathappened: Pretty much. 2017-11-02T08:43:09Z jackdaniel: no, repository is active 2017-11-02T08:43:16Z jackdaniel: but they didn't make a release for years now 2017-11-02T08:43:26Z loke: There have been some stray committs, but siince the last 10 years or so there have been no work. 2017-11-02T08:43:28Z jackdaniel: from the mailing list they want to push something soon™ 2017-11-02T08:43:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-02T08:44:03Z jackdaniel: consistent information rocks ;) 2017-11-02T08:51:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T08:55:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T08:57:05Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T08:57:28Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T08:58:54Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:00:57Z beach: whathappened: What is the reason for your question? 2017-11-02T09:01:05Z nopf joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:02:06Z whathappened quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T09:04:27Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:06:57Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T09:10:43Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T09:16:41Z pjb: loke: filthy liar! 2017-11-02T09:20:06Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T09:24:42Z shka_: burn him! 2017-11-02T09:25:53Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:28:07Z pjb: It's too late, the newbie left with the wrong info. 2017-11-02T09:35:19Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:37:28Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:41:44Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T09:42:44Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:46:46Z QualityAddict quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T09:47:11Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T09:47:41Z loke: Sending a message to a mailing list that there will be something pushed "soon", is not incompatible with the sattement that no work has been done. 2017-11-02T09:48:27Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:52:25Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-02T09:53:40Z pjb: But the absence of commit doesn't mean that it has been abandonned! 2017-11-02T09:54:18Z pjb: Abandonnement requires a conscious and explicit action. 2017-11-02T09:55:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T09:59:39Z SaganMan is now known as e^pi 2017-11-02T09:59:41Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T09:59:44Z loke: I never used the word abandoned. I said "pretty much" as a response to the question, and that's not technically wrong in my opinion. 2017-11-02T09:59:52Z e^pi is now known as e^i 2017-11-02T10:02:10Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:02:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:03:01Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:04:28Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:05:18Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:06:43Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:07:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:08:35Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:09:44Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:11:32Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:12:14Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:13:43Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T10:15:01Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:15:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:16:01Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:16:45Z dim: I'm really not sure about abanddonnement of software needing to be explicit 2017-11-02T10:16:53Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:17:58Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T10:18:40Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:20:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:23:12Z loke: dim: If it's an open source project, is there even such a thing as abandonment? 2017-11-02T10:23:32Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:23:57Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:24:32Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:26:15Z phoe_: loke: yes, open source projects have maintainers, and the project is called abandoned when there is no active maintainer who maintains it. 2017-11-02T10:27:15Z phoe_: of course, if there are no issues to be resolved and no commits waiting to be merged, no one may notice the project is abandoned... but then it means the project isn't used at all, which is a stronger definition of abandonment. (: 2017-11-02T10:27:25Z loke: phoe_: if no progress is actually made in terms of implementing missing features, etc, then from the point of view of a casual user the project is "pretty much" (which was the term I used) abandoned 2017-11-02T10:27:27Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:28:38Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:29:09Z loke: But sure, there have been commits, but they are all bug fixes for build issues and such 2017-11-02T10:30:48Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-02T10:31:24Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:31:37Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-02T10:32:31Z mrottenkolber: if it gets bug fixes its very far from abandoned 2017-11-02T10:33:05Z phoe_: if it gets bug fixes only because it stops building and not because there's open issues then the issue starts becoming more complex 2017-11-02T10:33:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T10:33:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:34:08Z mrottenkolber: not really? 2017-11-02T10:34:23Z mrottenkolber: apparently the open issues aren’t that important to anyone then, so? 2017-11-02T10:34:46Z phoe_: perhaps you're right, yes 2017-11-02T10:34:48Z Shinmera: Similarly a project is abandoned if the issues it has aren't important to anyone, no? 2017-11-02T10:35:00Z loke: phoe_: isn't that the status of CLISP? I looked through the recent commits, and it's mostly such fixes. 2017-11-02T10:35:07Z phoe_: Shinmera: perhaps you're right as well 2017-11-02T10:35:18Z loke: ASDF3 doesn't work on CLISP, no? 2017-11-02T10:35:26Z mrottenkolber: otherwise someone would pay for them to be fixed, as long as there is someone that will take your money to work on the issue I’d say the project is in good health 2017-11-02T10:36:07Z mrottenkolber: and "pay" here is not necessarily money, it can also mean I invest my time becaue I care 2017-11-02T10:47:23Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:48:40Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-11-02T10:50:18Z nika quit 2017-11-02T10:52:54Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T10:56:45Z neoncontrails quit 2017-11-02T10:59:32Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:02:24Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:13:47Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:14:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:15:08Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:16:02Z e^i quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T11:18:39Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:20:04Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T11:23:02Z mishoo_ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2017-11-02T11:23:21Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:23:43Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T11:24:55Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:25:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:25:17Z internet_cafe: nov 4 lisp replaces c, python, c++, js 2017-11-02T11:25:21Z internet_cafe: spread the word 2017-11-02T11:25:41Z pjb: internet_cafe: there's #lispcafe for this. 2017-11-02T11:26:09Z internet_cafe: ok 2017-11-02T11:26:43Z pjb: all the sbcl maintainers are out for a picnic. sbcl is abandonned! 2017-11-02T11:28:14Z jackdaniel: it seems that everybody has different definition of abandonware :) 2017-11-02T11:28:19Z pjb: loke: you need to define a time frame. And if you say one week, then you have to justify why 604799 seconds without a maintanance activity is not abandonned, but one second later it is. 2017-11-02T11:29:10Z jackdaniel: pjb: fuzzy logic, it is not binary state, whenever something is abandonned or not 2017-11-02T11:29:40Z pjb: jackdaniel: even with fuzzy logic, I would expect it to be on the order of multiple lifetimes. 2017-11-02T11:29:54Z jackdaniel: such terms are not well-defined enough to say, that your definition is any better than his (and vice-versa) 2017-11-02T11:29:57Z jmercouris: A project can only be in one of two states, abandoned and not-abandoned 2017-11-02T11:30:09Z pjb: If nobody has made a commit on clisp in 300 years, then I'll agree that it's been abandonned, perhaps, if I don't use it anymore for my scripts. 2017-11-02T11:30:12Z jmercouris: As soon as work resumes, and ONLY WHILE WORK IS ACTIVE, the state is not-abandoned 2017-11-02T11:30:23Z jmercouris: immediately thereafter, it is abandoned again 2017-11-02T11:30:57Z jackdaniel: I have yet another criteria for abandonness (which I don't share, because it won't make much sense), comparing these definitions without some arbitrary rule we all agree on is meaningless 2017-11-02T11:31:26Z jackdaniel: same goes for a lot of natural language phrasing btw, everyone has slightly different representation of terms 2017-11-02T11:31:52Z jackdaniel: yet I agree, that calling clisp abandonned is a bit harsh 2017-11-02T11:32:05Z jackdaniel: especially that it is at least maintained, if not improved 2017-11-02T11:37:14Z Zhivago: You can address it in terms of predictive models. 2017-11-02T11:38:18Z Zhivago: When you predict that the probability of further development is below the threshold for the amount of effort you're willing to put into it, then you can consider it abandoned. 2017-11-02T11:43:00Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-11-02T11:47:55Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:53:17Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:55:31Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-11-02T11:58:27Z mrottenkolber: wtf you are talking about clisp? how is clisp abandoned? It currently runs on a gazillion platforms and OSes, is stable, richly-featured, and maintained. I’d say its the definition of healthy. 2017-11-02T11:59:42Z mrottenkolber: is this the "CL ecosystem is abandoned" meme? 2017-11-02T11:59:54Z dim: nope, I don't think so 2017-11-02T12:00:17Z dim: the thing in CL that is very different from the rest of the programming languages is that we can still run lisp sources from the 70s without editing them 2017-11-02T12:00:27Z dim: try compiling a C program from 10 years ago with current compilers 2017-11-02T12:00:31Z dim: it's mostly impossible 2017-11-02T12:01:03Z Zhivago: Hmm, can't say that I've had that problem. 2017-11-02T12:01:03Z dim: so the notion of a CL program being abandonned is more complex, if you can probably still use the code 2017-11-02T12:01:30Z Zhivago: It's not like implicit int was that big a deal 10 years ago -- what is breaking them in your experience? 2017-11-02T12:01:33Z dim: in most cases to run an 10 yo program you need a 10 yo environement 2017-11-02T12:01:54Z Shinmera: CL libraries have changed too. 2017-11-02T12:02:02Z Shinmera: As have implementations. 2017-11-02T12:02:22Z dim: for C program it's because gcc (and other compilers) are trying to make a case that every undefined behavior is an oppportunity for performance work, and so they changed a lot of details in how to code is compiled 2017-11-02T12:02:37Z Zhivago: Also, which lisp sources from the 70s are you thinking about running in CL without change? SHRDLU certainly doesn't. 2017-11-02T12:02:42Z jackdaniel: and asdf with its backward-probability, khrm, bckward-portability 2017-11-02T12:02:48Z dim: your code behavior isn't the same with gcc 3 compared to gcc 6 2017-11-02T12:02:56Z dim: with the same code 2017-11-02T12:03:20Z Zhivago: If your argument is that programs that only worked by accident sometimes stop working by accident, then fair enough. 2017-11-02T12:03:26Z mrottenkolber: C people would argue that the code was wrong in the past too I guess^^ 2017-11-02T12:03:43Z dim: I think ELIZA code from 72 was run as-is recently, with some macros on top of CL to re-install operators from back then 2017-11-02T12:04:25Z Zhivago: So, with a little re-creation of N year old environments, then? :) 2017-11-02T12:04:36Z dim: Zhivago: not by accident, no, but to argue more we need either specific details or to trust each other, and it seems we lack both, so I wont argue more 2017-11-02T12:04:52Z Zhivago: If they had UB, then they only worked by accident. 2017-11-02T12:05:06Z Zhivago: CL has UB as well, but fortunately a lot less of it. 2017-11-02T12:05:20Z dim: I've known proprietary project labelled strategic where they put 3 to 5 developpers laptop known to be able to compile the project in a safe for 10 to 30 years, yes 2017-11-02T12:05:43Z dim: in case a bug needs fixing, you still have the laptop certified to be able to compile the source code and produce a binary for the right architecture 2017-11-02T12:05:55Z Zhivago: Well, that's what you get for writing non-portable code. 2017-11-02T12:06:09Z dim: in CL we have a strong enough notion that we can say that 2017-11-02T12:06:17Z dim: in other environments, my understanding is that they do not 2017-11-02T12:06:45Z Zhivago: A single (setq x y) without a defvar is enough to get UB in CL. 2017-11-02T12:07:09Z dim: and as we use several compilers/envs (SBCL, CCL, etc) we're pretty careful 2017-11-02T12:07:14Z dim: I think 2017-11-02T12:07:27Z Zhivago: And all of that applies to C as well -- it's really not a language issue. 2017-11-02T12:07:28Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T12:07:44Z Zhivago: The big difference is that C is full of UB holes for weak developers to fall into. 2017-11-02T12:07:59Z Zhivago: So there is a lot of C code that works by accident. 2017-11-02T12:08:15Z mrottenkolber: http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~wiseman/humor/large-programs.html 2017-11-02T12:08:20Z dim: in the C world, UB means opportunity for performance work, winning benchmarks 2017-11-02T12:08:28Z Zhivago: a[i] == b[i++] // oops 2017-11-02T12:08:53Z Zhivago: Except that people run benchmarks on many implementations, so it really isn't. 2017-11-02T12:09:00Z mrottenkolber: re my link: ASSQ is not in the standard but your (common) lisp probably has it 2017-11-02T12:09:33Z dim: http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_14.html --- they mention what I'm trying to say 2017-11-02T12:10:30Z Zhivago: Sure, C programmers generally don't know C. My go-to question for a C programmer is this: "char c[3]; What is the type of c?" 2017-11-02T12:10:55Z Shinmera: It's a pointer, no? 2017-11-02T12:10:57Z dim: well I would guess char[3] ;-) 2017-11-02T12:11:07Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T12:11:16Z Zhivago: Shinmera: No. :) 2017-11-02T12:11:25Z pfdietz: Blog post from Cuoq and Regehr on UB in C/C++. It's a swamp. https://blog.regehr.org/archives/1520 2017-11-02T12:11:38Z dim: there's some heap vs stack in char[3] vs char* IIRC, right? 2017-11-02T12:11:54Z Zhivago: I think that about 3% of C programmers can answer that question correctly, which dim did. 2017-11-02T12:11:54Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T12:12:19Z Zhivago: It's not heap vs stack. c is a char[3], but c evaluates to a value that is a char *. 2017-11-02T12:12:48Z dim: I guess what I wanted to highlight is that with a C program, if you do nothing to it for some time (5 years, 10 years?) then it breaks and is not usable anymore, whereas most CL programs still are usable after 30 to 40 years, and certainly more to come 2017-11-02T12:12:51Z Zhivago: So, if your argument is going to be that C is crap language full of UB and that most C programmers are incompetent, then I'll certainly agree. 2017-11-02T12:13:05Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:13:34Z Shinmera screams "I am wholly incompetent" as he continues to write CFFI to interact with systems audio 2017-11-02T12:14:09Z Zhivago: But I really don't find a much difference in longevity -- I can compile a lot of old C code which works as expected, and I can have a lot of trouble trying to get classic lisp (or even 10 year old CL) to run in CL. 2017-11-02T12:14:16Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:14:25Z SaganMan is now known as e^i 2017-11-02T12:14:54Z Zhivago: In the CL case it's often because libraries have disappeared or people used local extensions or there's no documentation or tests or build system or ... 2017-11-02T12:15:17Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:15:24Z dim: I see what you mean, I'm just still in my “CL is magic” years ;-) 2017-11-02T12:15:37Z pfdietz: All of that is like a superlanguage built on top of the base language. 2017-11-02T12:16:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-02T12:16:30Z Zhivago: I guess my point is that these issues are a bit orthogonal to the language itself (except for the ease of UB). 2017-11-02T12:16:50Z pfdietz: I've become more convinced over the years of the importance of standardization beyond just the base language. Libraries, utilities. 2017-11-02T12:18:39Z dim: CL standard is a very good beginning, but noone seems to want to pay for another round of it that would inclure more facilities (network and threads being the main things, I guess) 2017-11-02T12:19:26Z Zhivago: I'd really like to see a much smaller base language -- I think the scheme people are on the right track in that regard. 2017-11-02T12:19:49Z dim: expect R6 is bigger than CL I've read? 2017-11-02T12:20:20Z Shinmera: dim: Paying is one thing. Getting everyone on board and agreeing that it's a good idea is another. 2017-11-02T12:20:43Z Shinmera: Currently people seem all too happy to just do their own thing, hence the (mostly) failure of ideas like CDR. 2017-11-02T12:21:13Z Zhivago: dim: R7RS is supposed to be small. :) 2017-11-02T12:21:16Z dim: also de-facto standards such as drakma and bordeaux-threads are a thing 2017-11-02T12:22:09Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-11-02T12:30:57Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:31:25Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T12:37:22Z guaqua quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2017-11-02T12:37:29Z guaqua joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:37:54Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T12:38:48Z didi left #lisp 2017-11-02T12:38:56Z lrvy quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-02T12:40:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:45:07Z emaczen`` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:47:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:47:52Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:48:26Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T12:49:05Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T12:51:22Z dlowe: would anyone be interested in a revival of the rucksack library? 2017-11-02T12:51:40Z dlowe: I have a project that depends on it and it looks abandoned. 2017-11-02T12:52:10Z Xach: dlowe: how does rucksack differ from cl-store? i use cl-store a lot and my vague recollection is that they do similar things. 2017-11-02T12:52:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T12:53:48Z dlowe: Xach: rucksack does more than just serialization. It supports complex queries, too. 2017-11-02T12:54:21Z dlowe: and it gracefully handles altered classes 2017-11-02T12:55:01Z dlowe: my other idea is to build something like rucksack, using a similar implementation strategy, but leave the serialization up to cl-store. 2017-11-02T12:55:53Z dlowe: I'm not sure if it would work out - rucksack has its own referencing scheme to point to different bits of possibly self-referential data. 2017-11-02T12:57:22Z Shinmera: I considered adding a db backend for Radiance based on Rucksack once, so I'd be interested in seeing it revived too. 2017-11-02T12:58:44Z dim: what's better in serialization that in using a relational dbms? 2017-11-02T12:59:06Z Shinmera: dim: .. What? 2017-11-02T13:01:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:01:23Z dlowe: so if I have (defclass a () (a b)) and I store an instantiated object, rucksack serializes the class definition and the object, writes to disk, updates indexes. If I then (defclass a () (a b c)) and store another object, it doesn't invalidate the first. 2017-11-02T13:02:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T13:02:28Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:02:51Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:03:08Z dlowe: upgrading a relational db schema is the worst, especially in prod 2017-11-02T13:03:34Z dim: Shinmera: dbms solve concurrency accesses, which you might need to roll-out yourself in serialization 2017-11-02T13:03:38Z _death: rucksack seemed cool, but I didn't really use it for anything 2017-11-02T13:03:47Z Shinmera: dim: I could not parse your previous sentence. 2017-11-02T13:04:02Z dim: I tried to include in it as little of my thinking as possible 2017-11-02T13:04:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:04:09Z dim: but then it's useless, sorry 2017-11-02T13:04:43Z dlowe: anyway, rucksack does *not* solve concurrent accesses, though you could do this by slapping an RPC/socket frontend on it. 2017-11-02T13:04:44Z _death: lately I've looked into graph databases.. vivace is (was?) an open source lisp-based one, but not documented 2017-11-02T13:05:29Z dim: it seems to me that the live in-memory data that you manipulate to complete a task or a user-workflow needs to have a data model that is different from the system view, and the system view with business constraints is easier to manage in an rdbms 2017-11-02T13:05:41Z dim: so I wonder what is the added value of any serialization lib 2017-11-02T13:06:27Z Shinmera: dim: Not everything needs to be scalable to a huge corporation. 2017-11-02T13:06:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:07:23Z dlowe: for certain values of huge, you're back to serialization because rdbmses are totally not capable of the data load 2017-11-02T13:08:38Z dim: Shinmera: it's not about scalability, it's about addressing more than one use case 2017-11-02T13:09:14Z dlowe: dim: that's what protobufs and thrift and the like solve 2017-11-02T13:09:35Z dlowe: you get your interoperability through a high-level description of what your bag of bytes means 2017-11-02T13:10:04Z xuxuru quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T13:10:15Z Shinmera: dim: For a lot of use-cases the mental and complexity overhead of involving an RDBMS is not worth it. 2017-11-02T13:10:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T13:10:45Z _death: in practice most of my personal databases are sqlite/redis 2017-11-02T13:10:58Z dlowe: rucksack is kind of like a lispy sqllite 2017-11-02T13:11:58Z dlowe: of course, you lose all that interoperability by using it 2017-11-02T13:12:39Z dlowe: but then you don't have to munge your data to a special format either 2017-11-02T13:12:53Z dim: Shinmera: I guess I'm just too used to have PostgreSQL handles complex things for me then 2017-11-02T13:13:54Z dim: dbms for me aren't about data format, they are all about transactions and concurrency, then constraints (guarantees) 2017-11-02T13:14:29Z Shinmera: And very often you don't need any of those because the problem is much simpler. Throwing an RDBMS at everything is the equivalent of being an architecture astronaut. 2017-11-02T13:15:38Z dim: that's true 2017-11-02T13:16:04Z dim: but using a serialization lib is a hint that maybe that's not what you need actually, in my head it's a warning sign 2017-11-02T13:17:35Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T13:17:36Z Shinmera: Writing any kind of file type is a form of serialisation. 2017-11-02T13:18:48Z dim: it is 2017-11-02T13:19:24Z dlowe: you even have to "serialize" your data in a form the RDBMS can understand 2017-11-02T13:19:27Z dim: you don't write to a file type when using PostgreSQL though, you run transactions that define, read and write a data set with a model 2017-11-02T13:19:40Z dlowe: which can be horrible with different data structures 2017-11-02T13:19:57Z dim: that's why you need to have a proper data model 2017-11-02T13:20:01Z dim: same as in-memory 2017-11-02T13:20:18Z dim: if your data model isnt' very good, your algorithm is going to be very hard / awkward to implement 2017-11-02T13:20:21Z dim: same trade-offs 2017-11-02T13:20:32Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:20:33Z Shinmera: Impedance mismatch is a real thing. 2017-11-02T13:20:55Z dim: anyway serialization to me reads “I'm lazy and I'll regret it later, til'then that's good” 2017-11-02T13:21:11Z Shinmera: I don't think I'll ever regret writing pngs and config files. 2017-11-02T13:21:36Z dlowe: dim: naturally hierarchical data is a known weakness 2017-11-02T13:21:51Z dim: with recursive helps to some degree 2017-11-02T13:22:33Z dim: if your problem doesn't require transactions, has no concurrency, and has a single use-case for your data structures, then you don't need an rdbms, I'm just curious why you need a serialization format, that's all 2017-11-02T13:22:55Z dlowe: because sometimes you still want fast lookups over a persistant datastore 2017-11-02T13:22:59Z dlowe: anyway, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. 2017-11-02T13:23:10Z pfdietz: There are non-relational databases that have that, just without the relational part. 2017-11-02T13:23:21Z dlowe: and that's what rucksack is 2017-11-02T13:23:26Z dlowe: which is how this conversation started 2017-11-02T13:23:26Z dim: same, not trying to convince, I know how I like to solve my problems after all ;-) 2017-11-02T13:24:11Z pfdietz: I mean: have concurrency, scalability. Redis, MongoDB. 2017-11-02T13:24:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-02T13:24:31Z dim: MongoDB has no transactions, thus no concurrency, IUC 2017-11-02T13:24:38Z dim: (IIUC) 2017-11-02T13:24:40Z pfdietz: Hmm, ok. 2017-11-02T13:24:59Z dim: of the 4 letters ACID, MongoDB implements none 2017-11-02T13:25:02Z dlowe: my suggestion is that if you can't see the utility of something that's popular, then perhaps there's some super interesting things to be learned. 2017-11-02T13:25:15Z dlowe: sometimes you learn that stupid things become popular 2017-11-02T13:25:22Z dim: dlowe: yes, I wouldn't be asking so many questions otherwise 2017-11-02T13:25:47Z dlowe: dim: fair enough :) 2017-11-02T13:25:58Z dim: I tried to not put my view into my questions at first but that failed, so now I'm pushing them in the clear to ease the conversation, but it's not helping a lot 2017-11-02T13:26:14Z dim: anyways, have fun with rucksack I guess 2017-11-02T13:26:14Z dlowe: IRC is the worst. 2017-11-02T13:26:31Z Shinmera: dlowe: At least it's not Twitter or Facebook 2017-11-02T13:26:35Z dim: communication is 90% non-verbal, something like that 2017-11-02T13:26:44Z dim: IRC is only the 10% verbal replacement, we miss a lot 2017-11-02T13:26:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T13:27:18Z Shinmera: Indeed. People miss my angry glares, scowls, and huffs. 2017-11-02T13:27:28Z dlowe: yeah, sometimes it's a blessing 2017-11-02T13:29:04Z dlowe: There's a few terrible pain points RDBMSes have. Schema upgrades are the worst and either cause costly downtime or highly stressful un-rollbackable in-place upgrades 2017-11-02T13:29:38Z dlowe: Another is data structures that don't naturally fit into tables, such as trees, graphs, and geospatial data. 2017-11-02T13:29:51Z dlowe: PG has some extensions for those, but it's not that natural 2017-11-02T13:30:13Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T13:30:24Z dlowe: Third is scaling. Replication across complex dbs is a hard problem and error prone (especially with upgrading schemas) 2017-11-02T13:30:41Z dlowe: it's very hard to avoid a single point of failure 2017-11-02T13:32:21Z dlowe: Fourth is sizing constraints. RDBMSes don't deal that well with terabytes of data. 2017-11-02T13:32:43Z Shinmera: What does, though? 2017-11-02T13:32:48Z dlowe: even Oracle gets upset with sufficiently large binary blobs 2017-11-02T13:32:50Z dim: in PostgreSQL DDL are transactional, btw, so BEGIN; ALTER TABLE ...; ; ROLLBACK; is all good 2017-11-02T13:33:07Z dim: GeoSpatial, have a look at PostGIS sometime 2017-11-02T13:33:58Z dim: sizing and scaling-out is still WIP yes 2017-11-02T13:34:00Z dlowe: dim: you'll find that in practice you can't actually rollback a real upgrade because the data is updated along with the schema, and there are data dependencies involved. 2017-11-02T13:34:12Z dlowe: and I already said PG has extensions 2017-11-02T13:34:23Z dim: dlowe: that's why you do your rollout all in the same transaction 2017-11-02T13:34:36Z dim: begin; create table; insert; update; alter table; etc; commit; 2017-11-02T13:34:57Z dim: and it might rollback the whole thing at any error, and then nothing happened at all, you're back to previous version, safely 2017-11-02T13:35:08Z dlowe: dim: that involves downtime. 2017-11-02T13:35:13Z dim: sometimes yes 2017-11-02T13:35:40Z dim: there are ways to mitigate this downtime when it happens, too, and I agree it's complex 2017-11-02T13:35:46Z dim: so if you don't need it, avoid it, by all means 2017-11-02T13:35:47Z dlowe: it's a pain point. 2017-11-02T13:36:00Z dim: if you do, implementing your own solution might not be better 2017-11-02T13:36:01Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T13:36:37Z dlowe: don't have to. Many non-relational dbs are already implemented. 2017-11-02T13:37:32Z dlowe: just because you have found ways to mitigate the pain doesn't mean it's not there 2017-11-02T13:37:36Z dlowe: people live with PHP too 2017-11-02T13:39:28Z _death feels the classic conclusion is approached 2017-11-02T13:39:57Z _death: "it depends" 2017-11-02T13:40:44Z Shinmera: "perhaps the answer is somewhere in the middle" 2017-11-02T13:42:02Z dlowe: I don't think there's a middle here :) but yeah, I'm listing a few conditions for which not choosing an RDBMS is rational 2017-11-02T13:42:14Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:43:12Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:45:02Z Zhivago: Just consider RDBMS to be a class of data type, and apply the usual criteria for selecting appropriate data types. 2017-11-02T13:47:35Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T13:49:03Z dim: I guess I'm just too used to rely on a working ACID system 2017-11-02T13:50:05Z _death: it's a bit different though, since the data may survive its current consumers, so you're working in a context where you have only partial knowledge 2017-11-02T13:51:43Z _death: this can also happen when choosing a data type in an application, but here it's amplified 2017-11-02T13:51:57Z beach: dim: I remember you were in favor of using a relational database for the object store that I am planning to use. I have a question relating to that. How do I store an arbitrary Common Lisp object in such a thing, say a function. And how does the database manager get informed when the GC moves the object in memory? 2017-11-02T13:54:12Z dim: beach: it's pretty low-level, we concluded you might need to implement a relationnal model to be flexible enough in your “APIs”, but not an external facility because of those problems 2017-11-02T13:54:33Z beach: Ah, OK. So use the model, but not an existing system? 2017-11-02T13:54:34Z dim: well that's what I remember about it 2017-11-02T13:54:38Z dim: yeah 2017-11-02T13:54:44Z beach: Makes sense. Sorry for my bad memory. 2017-11-02T13:55:08Z dim: the model allows users to then implement tags and several kind of representations to help find the objects 2017-11-02T13:55:19Z beach: Sure. 2017-11-02T13:56:06Z dim: you could even implement hierarchies (id, parent) in a relational model, it fits to some degree 2017-11-02T13:56:46Z beach: I am not that interested in hierarchies. :) 2017-11-02T13:57:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:57:56Z dim: you might have users wanting to re-enable them tho, but maybe even that's not a concern 2017-11-02T13:57:58Z shifty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T13:58:05Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T13:58:13Z beach: Maybe. I don't know yet. 2017-11-02T13:58:23Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:00:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:03:04Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:05:25Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T14:09:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:11:22Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:14:52Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:16:11Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T14:16:15Z doby162 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:16:25Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T14:19:11Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:22:06Z doby162: Does anyone know how to diagnose problems with a socket handshake? My server socket works great for sbcl-sbcl communication but when I try to connect to it from js websockets I get "Error during WebSocket handshake" from js and "illegal terminating character after a colon: #\" from sbcl 2017-11-02T14:22:13Z doby162: Any help appreciated :o) 2017-11-02T14:22:59Z phoe_: doby162: #\ is not a valid character 2017-11-02T14:23:11Z phoe_: are you able to post the full stacktrace, and/or your code? 2017-11-02T14:23:27Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T14:23:49Z phoe_: and the libraries you're using for websockets? 2017-11-02T14:23:49Z doby162: Yeah, I can post code 2017-11-02T14:24:03Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:24:12Z doby162: I am using usocket with sbcl and the standard web sockets with js 2017-11-02T14:24:31Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:25:07Z doby162: This is how I connect to the server with sbcl: ;(defvar *port* 8080) 2017-11-02T14:25:07Z doby162: ;(defvar *ip-address* "127.0.0.1") 2017-11-02T14:25:07Z doby162: ;(defun stream-read (stream) 2017-11-02T14:25:07Z doby162: ; "Reads from a usocket connected stream" 2017-11-02T14:25:07Z doby162: ; (read (usocket:socket-stream stream))) 2017-11-02T14:25:07Z doby162: ;(defparameter my-stream (usocket:socket-connect *ip-address* *port*)) 2017-11-02T14:25:09Z doby162: ;(stream-read my-stream) 2017-11-02T14:25:18Z phoe_: doby162: nononono 2017-11-02T14:25:21Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org 2017-11-02T14:25:22Z varjag: use pastebots 2017-11-02T14:26:52Z doby162: http://paste.lisp.org/display/360103 2017-11-02T14:27:14Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T14:27:30Z m00natic` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:28:23Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T14:28:47Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:28:58Z doby162: http://paste.lisp.org/display/360104 2017-11-02T14:30:11Z doby162: Should I post server code as well? It's lifted from another project of mine so it has a lot of extra functions that don't do anything yet 2017-11-02T14:30:12Z didi joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:30:30Z _death: despite the name, websockets aren't sockets 2017-11-02T14:30:51Z phoe_: websockets are not standard TCP sockets, that is 2017-11-02T14:31:15Z doby162: Oh. Well, it not working would make sense then 2017-11-02T14:31:39Z _death: may want to look at libraries like clws or hunchensocket 2017-11-02T14:32:00Z didi: How do I write a macro that indents like `destructuring-bind', i.e. the second argument slightly to the right of body. 2017-11-02T14:32:14Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T14:32:58Z doby162: Will do! Thanks a bunch. 2017-11-02T14:34:31Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:35:30Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-11-02T14:35:44Z _death: didi: look at slime-indentation contrib.. especially *application-hints-tables* in swank-indentation 2017-11-02T14:36:03Z Shinmera: didi: Check the trivial-indent library. 2017-11-02T14:36:39Z didi: _death, Shinmera: Thank you. 2017-11-02T14:36:42Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:38:02Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:40:22Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:40:56Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-02T14:41:05Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T14:44:35Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T14:44:58Z _death: Shinmera: cool 2017-11-02T14:45:36Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:45:45Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:46:15Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T14:46:40Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:47:50Z Shinmera: In other news, if someone wants to write a WASAPI example in Lisp that just continuously plays some PCM data, that'd be absolutely great. Looking at code for it in existing libraries like https://github.com/andrewrk/libsoundio/blob/master/src/wasapi.c makes me :scream: 2017-11-02T14:49:10Z xantoz joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:49:41Z beach: Beautiful! :) 2017-11-02T14:49:58Z Bike: WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN, that takes me back 2017-11-02T14:50:32Z bgardner joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:50:51Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-02T14:50:53Z Shinmera: Pulse and ALSA both were trivial to write backends for. WASAPI and Core Audio just make me want to hide in a corner. 2017-11-02T14:51:24Z _death: doesn't look so bad for typical COM-in-C code 2017-11-02T14:51:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:52:53Z Shinmera: Maybe not, but it's just a ton of it. 2017-11-02T14:55:02Z injunjoe joined #lisp 2017-11-02T14:56:46Z dieggsy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2017-11-02T14:59:19Z injunjoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:00:45Z shka_: hello folks 2017-11-02T15:01:07Z shka_: how bad is calling compile in normal function? 2017-11-02T15:01:37Z Shinmera: bad in what regard 2017-11-02T15:02:09Z Bike: Depends On What You Are Doing 2017-11-02T15:02:13Z jackdaniel: ™ 2017-11-02T15:02:17Z dlowe: how else are you going to compile? 2017-11-02T15:02:20Z dlowe: eval? 2017-11-02T15:02:31Z Bike: the implicit question is presumably "how bad is compiling things in a normal function" 2017-11-02T15:02:56Z shka_: yes 2017-11-02T15:02:59Z phoe_: depends on what you're doing, again 2017-11-02T15:03:07Z shka_: it is sort of dirty hack 2017-11-02T15:03:16Z Bike: okay, so that sounds bad. 2017-11-02T15:03:23Z phoe_: shka_: you just answered yourself 2017-11-02T15:03:23Z _death: usually you can avoid compiling 2017-11-02T15:03:35Z shka_: i had macro, but i needed to have arguments in the runtime 2017-11-02T15:03:47Z phoe_: shka_: arguments to what? 2017-11-02T15:03:55Z Bike: that sounds way more bad. 2017-11-02T15:03:56Z shka_: to macro, dude 2017-11-02T15:04:02Z shka_: yeah 2017-11-02T15:04:03Z Bike: perhaps you could share something. 2017-11-02T15:04:16Z shka_: it is very ugly, i would rather not 2017-11-02T15:04:25Z shka_: but this made me wonder 2017-11-02T15:04:28Z Bike: okay, then i'm just going to assume it sucks and you shouldn't do it. 2017-11-02T15:04:40Z Bike: i don't know what advice you expect when all you're willing to say is that it's bad. 2017-11-02T15:04:42Z shka_: why using compile is bad 2017-11-02T15:04:48Z pjb: shka_: to have the argument in the run time you just insert it in an evaluated position in the resulting form1 2017-11-02T15:04:49Z pjb: ! 2017-11-02T15:04:55Z Bike: Using the compiler isn't bad. A macro evaluating its arguments is bad. 2017-11-02T15:04:56Z _death: if the code you generate will be used many times, and avoiding compile will make it much harder to write efficiently, then it's ok 2017-11-02T15:05:04Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T15:05:24Z shka_: and by extension, when it is ok, to use compile 2017-11-02T15:05:32Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T15:05:50Z _death: shka: compile can be very slow.. and like I said, can usually be avoided 2017-11-02T15:05:53Z Bike: When there's advice like "don't use eval" or "don't use compile" what that means is mainly that the uses newbies tend to have are bad, and that there are few cases in which you can use them in a stylistically good way. 2017-11-02T15:05:55Z shka_: Bike: ok, just don't hate me please 2017-11-02T15:06:01Z shka_: i will share 2017-11-02T15:06:05Z Bike: hating people over irc is so nineties 2017-11-02T15:06:11Z dlowe: dude, you're free to ruin your own code as much as you want 2017-11-02T15:06:21Z phoe_: shka_: no hating you, you're just very vague about what you're trying to do and why you're trying to do it 2017-11-02T15:06:25Z dlowe: nobody here is going to stop you 2017-11-02T15:06:28Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:07:25Z _death: shka: in certain implementations, it may be much more heavyweight, say generating C code and calling a C compiler, so may require more dependencies 2017-11-02T15:07:28Z shka_: Bike: here is my code, i am going to rewrite it anyway… 2017-11-02T15:07:29Z shka_: (defmacro dispatch-to-separate-files-according-to-distance (sequences alphabet directory distances matrix) 2017-11-02T15:07:31Z shka_: (let ((files (iterate 2017-11-02T15:07:32Z shka_: (for (more less) in distances) 2017-11-02T15:07:34Z shka_: (collect (list (gensym) `(open ,(concat directory (format nil "~a-~a.txt" more less)) 2017-11-02T15:07:34Z Bike: pastebin! 2017-11-02T15:07:35Z shka_: :direction :output 2017-11-02T15:07:36Z pjb: lisppaste! 2017-11-02T15:07:36Z phoe_: shka_: noooooooooooooooo 2017-11-02T15:07:37Z shka_: :if-does-not-exist :create 2017-11-02T15:07:37Z Bike: paste biiiiin 2017-11-02T15:07:38Z shka_: :if-exists :supersede)))))) 2017-11-02T15:07:40Z shka_: (once-only (sequences matrix alphabet) 2017-11-02T15:07:41Z shka_: `(let ,files 2017-11-02T15:07:43Z shka_: (mojry.tools:dispatch-to-threads 2017-11-02T15:07:44Z shka_: send 2017-11-02T15:07:46Z shka_: nil 2017-11-02T15:07:46Z beach: shka_: STOP 2017-11-02T15:07:47Z shka_: (distance left right) 2017-11-02T15:07:49Z shka_: ,(mapcar (lambda (dist file) 2017-11-02T15:07:50Z shka_: (destructuring-bind (more less) dist 2017-11-02T15:07:52Z shka_: `((< ,more distance ,less) 2017-11-02T15:07:53Z Shinmera: beach: It's already in the buffer. 2017-11-02T15:07:53Z shka_: (mojry.output:compact-format-sparse-sequence left ,alphabet ,(first file)) 2017-11-02T15:07:55Z shka_: (format ,(first file) " -- ") 2017-11-02T15:07:56Z shka_: (mojry.output:compact-format-sparse-sequence right ,alphabet ,(first file)) 2017-11-02T15:07:58Z shka_: (format ,(first file) "~%")))) 2017-11-02T15:07:59Z shka_: distances 2017-11-02T15:08:01Z shka_: files) 2017-11-02T15:08:01Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe_ 2017-11-02T15:08:02Z shka_: (iterate 2017-11-02T15:08:03Z pankracy: wtf? 2017-11-02T15:08:04Z shka_: (for i below (array-dimension ,matrix 0)) 2017-11-02T15:08:05Z shka_: (iterate 2017-11-02T15:08:07Z shka_: (for j below (array-dimension ,matrix 1)) 2017-11-02T15:08:07Z shka_ quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-11-02T15:08:11Z _death: :D 2017-11-02T15:08:22Z Bike: why do irc clients even allow that 2017-11-02T15:08:22Z Shinmera: Oh hey freenode's spam protection finally kicked in 2017-11-02T15:08:32Z Shinmera: Bike: A lot of clients are really bad 2017-11-02T15:08:51Z Bike: i mean they have to specifically do it, right? there's a time gap between messages or else it would be rejected earlier 2017-11-02T15:09:07Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe_ 2017-11-02T15:09:07Z Shinmera: The time gap could be from the server too. 2017-11-02T15:09:14Z Bike: hm, maybe 2017-11-02T15:09:18Z Shinmera: IRC servers typically process things in timed queues to avoid floods. 2017-11-02T15:09:28Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T15:09:30Z Bike: i only know about writing clients, i guess 2017-11-02T15:09:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:09:43Z Shinmera: I unfortunately know about both :^) 2017-11-02T15:10:45Z Shinmera: Most clients won't even try to keep your messages from being cut off. And almost every client doesn't cut off properly even if it does try, because doing so is really hard 2017-11-02T15:10:46Z patche joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:10:46Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:10:48Z Shinmera: #justircthings 2017-11-02T15:11:12Z e^i: doesn't this channel has flood protection? 2017-11-02T15:11:21Z Shinmera: e^i: It does. That's why he got killed. 2017-11-02T15:11:25Z dlowe: Shinmera: what do you mean by properly? 2017-11-02T15:11:43Z Bike: coordinating with the server on allowed message length? 2017-11-02T15:11:53Z Bike: i can imagine a few ways in which it could be a pain in the ass 2017-11-02T15:11:59Z Shinmera: dlowe: IRC has a hard limit on the message length. However, because what the server sends back when you PRIVMSG is not the same as what you send out, it's hard to know how much text you can actually send. 2017-11-02T15:12:00Z e^i: why did he paste the code here like that? probably new to irc 2017-11-02T15:12:02Z dlowe: that's not too hard. It's an ISUPPORT message and there's a default 2017-11-02T15:12:07Z Shinmera: e^i: Mistake more likely 2017-11-02T15:12:23Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:12:24Z e^i: hmm, maybe yeah 2017-11-02T15:12:53Z _death: that's more reason for using erc.. where you have to RET after you yank :) 2017-11-02T15:13:56Z Shinmera: Weechat specifically asks you if you enter anything more than one line. 2017-11-02T15:14:20Z phoe_: so does irssi - it saved my butt a few times when I tried posting 43 lines or something. 2017-11-02T15:16:55Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:17:11Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:17:36Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:17:36Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T15:17:38Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:18:17Z e^i: phoe_: you're using irssi? 2017-11-02T15:18:25Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:18:41Z phoe_: e^i: t 2017-11-02T15:18:42Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:19:13Z e^i: phoe_: hehe 2017-11-02T15:19:24Z phoe_: e^i: why the "hehe"? 2017-11-02T15:19:31Z e^i: t 2017-11-02T15:19:49Z e^i: ^^ that made me giggle 2017-11-02T15:20:06Z e^i: I used to use irssi but now shifted to weechat 2017-11-02T15:20:20Z phoe_: one of the most funny things about Lisp that it allows things like this to be valid Lisp code: 2017-11-02T15:20:25Z phoe_: (foo 42) ;) 2017-11-02T15:21:56Z e^i: yeah 2017-11-02T15:23:18Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:24:22Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:27:48Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T15:30:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:30:41Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:32:46Z sjl_: yeah weechat forcing you to hit ctrl-y before you paste 47 lines has saved me a couple of times 2017-11-02T15:32:49Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:32:49Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-11-02T15:38:14Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T15:40:04Z phoe_: I have a system that consists of multiple packages. What is the easiest way to grab all symbols exported by packages FOO, BAR, BAZ, ..., and reexport them from package QUUX? 2017-11-02T15:40:08Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:40:15Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:40:46Z _death: uiop:define-package 2017-11-02T15:40:48Z beach: clhs do-external-symbols 2017-11-02T15:40:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 2017-11-02T15:41:09Z moei joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:41:46Z _death: it has a :use-reexport option 2017-11-02T15:41:59Z phoe_: UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE's :REEXPORT is just what I need, yes. Thanks! 2017-11-02T15:42:24Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:42:30Z _death: also, ugh... new syntax hilighting for uninterned symbols in bleeding edge emacs 2017-11-02T15:46:28Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:46:41Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T15:46:41Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:47:06Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T15:47:18Z mfiano: phoe_: Have a look at defpackage-plus. It has a facility explicitly for this 2017-11-02T15:47:58Z _death: there was also conduits 2017-11-02T15:48:04Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:53:16Z phoe_: mfiano: UIOP wins in my case, it's bundled with every sane CL nowadays and the :REEXPORT seems to work. 2017-11-02T15:54:04Z jackdaniel: until reexport option gets renamed in some future uiop version and other library you use depends on that new version 2017-11-02T15:54:56Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T15:55:00Z hlavaty left #lisp 2017-11-02T15:55:33Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T15:56:15Z sjl: phoe_: this is a jankyass thing I came up with a while ago: https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/package.lisp#L6-L17 2017-11-02T15:56:20Z sjl: it mostly works 2017-11-02T15:57:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-02T15:59:23Z doby162 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T16:05:50Z doby162 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:06:41Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:10:40Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T16:13:10Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:13:34Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:14:02Z doby162 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T16:14:33Z doby162 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:17:17Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:18:48Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:22:27Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:23:13Z doby162 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T16:24:52Z doby162 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:27:09Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:29:21Z dim: seems I have my own too at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/package.lisp#L5 and used at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/package.lisp#L311 2017-11-02T16:31:30Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:33:37Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:33:41Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:35:04Z e^i: nice sjl, I will give it a try 2017-11-02T16:38:20Z Josh_2: I had a dream about giving a talk at els, one day it might happen. 2017-11-02T16:38:25Z _death: sjl: funny that you started writing a clicker game.. I started writing one a week ago as well :).. 2017-11-02T16:38:42Z _death: sjl: although I apparently abandoned it after 3 days 2017-11-02T16:38:47Z sjl: _death: heh, I played paperclips recently so it was fresh in my mind 2017-11-02T16:39:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T16:39:37Z _death: sjl: for me it was just a nasty idea combined with testing the TIC-80 CL embedding I wrote 2017-11-02T16:40:07Z e^i: clicker game? 2017-11-02T16:40:44Z sjl: e^i: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incremental_game 2017-11-02T16:41:00Z sjl: e.g. candybox, paperclips, kittens, a dark room, etc etc 2017-11-02T16:41:13Z sjl: I started writing one in CL + ncurses on stream a couple days ago 2017-11-02T16:41:42Z e^i: sjl: you're writing clicker game in clisp? 2017-11-02T16:41:52Z sjl: cl as in "common lisp" 2017-11-02T16:41:57Z sjl: using sbcl 2017-11-02T16:42:17Z beach: e^i: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp, not an abbreviation for it. 2017-11-02T16:42:37Z e^i: oh 2017-11-02T16:42:49Z sjl: yeah typically I use CL to mean "Common Lisp" not CLISP the implementation 2017-11-02T16:43:05Z sjl: they don't get to steal that acronym :) 2017-11-02T16:43:27Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:43:51Z Jen is now known as Guest77001 2017-11-02T16:44:12Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:44:51Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-02T16:45:22Z larsen: _death, sjl: funny that you started writing a clicker game... :) 2017-11-02T16:45:38Z e^i: was reading wikipedia of clisp, last stable release was on 2010. From 1987 to 2010, that must be good implementation. 2017-11-02T16:46:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:46:27Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:47:25Z beach: e^i: I guess you missed the discussion between loke and pjb before, huh? 2017-11-02T16:47:35Z e^i: yeah 2017-11-02T16:47:55Z _death: e^i: I think it was the first CL implementation I used.. it served me well at work back then by having a nice Windows port.. its performance wasn't very important since I'd use foreign functions to do the heavy-lifting 2017-11-02T16:48:39Z beach: e^i: CLISP compiles to bytecodes, and the bytecodes are then interpreted by a C program. 2017-11-02T16:49:11Z beach: e^i: That makes it very portable (to platforms with a C compiler), but it means the execution speed is not the best. 2017-11-02T16:49:43Z jackdaniel: beach: that's not necessarily true. development clisp code uses gnu lightning 2017-11-02T16:49:45Z jackdaniel: which is JIT 2017-11-02T16:49:49Z e^i: _death: oh wow, that's long usage of a language. You must be pro at cl now. 2017-11-02T16:49:59Z jackdaniel: compiling to native code 2017-11-02T16:50:07Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh, interesting. Must be very recent. 2017-11-02T16:50:13Z e^i: beach: ah, I see. Like one of those oop languages. 2017-11-02T16:50:14Z jackdaniel: a few years I think 2017-11-02T16:50:25Z beach: e^i: What? 2017-11-02T16:50:30Z Bike: thinking of java? 2017-11-02T16:50:58Z doby162 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T16:51:00Z e^i: beach: object oriented languages. Doesn't most of them compile to byte code? 2017-11-02T16:51:03Z jackdaniel: think in java 2017-11-02T16:51:05Z jackdaniel: :) 2017-11-02T16:51:10Z beach: e^i: Whether a compiler or an interpreter is used for an implementation is an issue that is orthogonal to the language. 2017-11-02T16:51:18Z Bike: or smalltalk, i suppose 2017-11-02T16:51:34Z _death: e^i: think I started learning CL in 2006.. used it through all my jobs, usually for "internal tools", i.e. tools used by mostly me ;) 2017-11-02T16:51:38Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-02T16:52:09Z beach: e^i: I suspect you are confusing a language and a particular implementation. 2017-11-02T16:52:17Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T16:52:19Z e^i: _death: interesting, what's your job and what kind of tools you made in cl? 2017-11-02T16:52:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:53:17Z beach: e^i: Furthermore, whether the language is object-oriented or not does not influence the implementation strategy. 2017-11-02T16:53:54Z doby162 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:54:00Z e^i: beach: yeah 2017-11-02T16:54:58Z e^i: the implementation differs in sbcl 2017-11-02T16:55:31Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-02T16:56:33Z _death: e^i: jobs were mostly in computer vision and later on more run-of-the-mill "web development".. not the place to discuss tools I wrote for those, but I also write a lot of code on my free time ;).. a small percentage of it goes public on https://github.com/death .. 2017-11-02T16:56:54Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:00:04Z e^i: _death: nice and also the code is easy to read 2017-11-02T17:02:14Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:02:31Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:02:57Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T17:03:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:03:28Z m00natic` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T17:03:45Z m00natic` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:08:06Z doby162 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T17:08:16Z epony joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:08:33Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:09:12Z epony quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-02T17:10:11Z doby162 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:11:57Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:12:46Z Shinmera: sjl: Btw Harmony is now mostly reworked. Got some additional drains working, and a 16bit PVM wav source too now. 2017-11-02T17:12:52Z Shinmera: *PCM 2017-11-02T17:14:15Z sjl: oh nice 2017-11-02T17:14:20Z sjl: I'll take a look this weekend 2017-11-02T17:14:58Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:15:02Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:15:09Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:17:52Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:19:35Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:21:14Z e^i quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:22:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:24:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T17:26:13Z epony joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:27:53Z emaczen`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T17:28:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:31:17Z doby162 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T17:37:23Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-02T17:37:59Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:41:49Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:42:02Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:44:33Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:45:22Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:45:31Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T17:46:59Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-11-02T17:48:05Z emaczen`: I have (restart-case (handler-bind ... (bt:make-thread ...))) -- will a condition signalled inside the thread be handled? 2017-11-02T17:48:09Z emaczen`: It does not seem to... 2017-11-02T17:48:45Z Bike: i don't think so, no 2017-11-02T17:49:56Z Shinmera: threads have their own stack. handlers from the spawning thread's stack somehow being active still would be very weird. 2017-11-02T17:50:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T18:00:47Z m00natic` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T18:02:58Z ebrasca: sjl: hi 2017-11-02T18:04:43Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:05:23Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:06:42Z sjl: ebrasca: hey 2017-11-02T18:06:57Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:09:03Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:09:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:10:12Z Ven is now known as Guest34073 2017-11-02T18:10:40Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-02T18:11:40Z DeadTrickster__ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:11:47Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T18:13:55Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T18:14:18Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:14:27Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:15:18Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:15:52Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:20:01Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:20:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:22:41Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:22:44Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:24:28Z DeadTrickster__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:25:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:31:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:32:26Z jmercouris: sjl: hey 2017-11-02T18:33:40Z emaczen`: Shinmera: Ok I see. That makes sense. 2017-11-02T18:35:50Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:35:55Z shka: good evening 2017-11-02T18:36:06Z shka: i am very sorry for the flood earlier 2017-11-02T18:36:12Z shka: it was accident 2017-11-02T18:36:26Z emaczen`: I want to test how long a function takes to run, what are the easiest time functions to use? 2017-11-02T18:36:29Z Guest77001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T18:36:41Z dlowe: emaczen`: CL:TIME 2017-11-02T18:36:47Z shka: emaczen`: i think that TIME function is pretty easy to use 2017-11-02T18:36:50Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T18:39:01Z emaczen`: shka dlowe: cool, I like it too now 2017-11-02T18:39:19Z emaczen`: I have a style question too 2017-11-02T18:39:43Z shka: Bike: i want to apologize for flood earlier today 2017-11-02T18:39:50Z shka: it was accident 2017-11-02T18:40:04Z emaczen`: I'm using conditions for asynchronous control, and I "raise" the condition via (error 'condition-name) 2017-11-02T18:40:20Z emaczen`: I don't really like using error, becuase it is not an error... what should I use? 2017-11-02T18:40:32Z dlowe: signal 2017-11-02T18:40:47Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:40:49Z zmt01 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:40:53Z zmt01 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T18:41:14Z emaczen`: can #'time slow functions down? 2017-11-02T18:41:53Z dlowe: I guess you could find out with nested time invocations 2017-11-02T18:43:40Z Bike: it wouldn't be a very useful tool if it did so considerably 2017-11-02T18:44:30Z Bike: re error: error is signal followed by invoke-debugger. warning is signal followed by print to error output. if you don't need either of those additions signal's the way to go. 2017-11-02T18:44:43Z emaczen`: oooh #'time told me I have 4 available cores --- I thought I only had 2 2017-11-02T18:45:18Z Bike: of course, if the condition signaled by signal isn't handled, signal just returns nil, which may still be a problem depending on your design 2017-11-02T18:45:36Z emaczen`: I'm just started using bt:make-thread and the condition system together 2017-11-02T18:45:46Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:45:51Z emaczen`: I just started using bt:make-thread like yesterday 2017-11-02T18:46:02Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T18:46:03Z emaczen`: I'm relatively new to the condition system too 2017-11-02T18:46:07Z emaczen`: This is fun! 2017-11-02T18:46:12Z shka: uh 2017-11-02T18:46:29Z JenElizabeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T18:46:45Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:47:06Z shka: you do realize that function in new thread is at the bottom of separate stack? 2017-11-02T18:47:23Z emaczen`: shka: huh? 2017-11-02T18:47:35Z didi: emaczen`: PCL has a nice chapter on conditions. 2017-11-02T18:50:24Z emaczen`: What I'm doing is working. I create a bunch of threads to ping a subnet to find my devices. It takes about 10 seconds 2017-11-02T18:50:35Z emaczen`: I just wanted to know if I am way off here or anything 2017-11-02T18:50:37Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T18:51:13Z Bike: that's faster? i'd expect that to be limited more by the network. 2017-11-02T18:51:58Z emaczen`: If you don't create threads, you have to wait for each address to timeout 2017-11-02T18:52:07Z emaczen`: I even tried setting the timeout to 1 second 2017-11-02T18:52:17Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:52:59Z _death: emaczen: threads are often too low-level.. check out lparallel.. for example in your case a simple lp:pmapcar may work 2017-11-02T18:53:06Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:53:16Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T18:53:32Z shka: or at the very least you can use lparallel queue 2017-11-02T18:54:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-02T18:55:18Z emaczen`: I'll keep lparallel in mind -- for simple tasks I think it is worth it to do it yourself 2017-11-02T18:55:44Z emaczen`: Bike: The network is 192.168.1.* -- it should be pretty fast right? 2017-11-02T18:57:00Z phoe_: emaczen`: fast? what do you mean? 2017-11-02T18:57:24Z _death: I guess it's also worth the bitter experience that pushes you to use higher-level abstractions ;) 2017-11-02T18:57:24Z phoe_: network speed does not depend on which network mask or address you use 2017-11-02T18:57:46Z emaczen`: phoe_: If one was to ping some random subnet on the internet who knows where around the world should be a bit slower right? 2017-11-02T18:59:00Z phoe_: emaczen`: yes, but 192.168.1.* *might* be fast not because if has these three octets, but because it's presumably a local area network, which might have low latencies and high throughput 2017-11-02T19:00:37Z Bike: it depends a little bit. but a ping is probably going to take at least a few dozen milliseconds. 2017-11-02T19:00:48Z muresanvlad_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:00:50Z Bike: which is like, billions of years practically 2017-11-02T19:00:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:03:27Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T19:08:17Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:08:30Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:11:42Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:11:58Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:14:01Z oleo2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T19:14:40Z phoe_: a few dozen milliseconds is, practically, billions of years 2017-11-02T19:14:42Z phoe_: hm 2017-11-02T19:15:22Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:15:37Z Guest34073 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-02T19:16:39Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T19:16:41Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:17:58Z Shinmera: If you connect through 0.0.0.0, you're probably gonna be a lot faster than that. 2017-11-02T19:18:21Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:19:12Z dyelar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T19:20:08Z emaczen`: Shinmera: Why? 2017-11-02T19:20:28Z Shinmera: Because your OS will realise it never has to actually reach the network card 2017-11-02T19:20:40Z Shinmera: So it can just do shared memory. 2017-11-02T19:21:05Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T19:21:14Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:24:45Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:26:26Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T19:27:36Z Bike: critical optimization 2017-11-02T19:28:29Z shka: :D 2017-11-02T19:29:26Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T19:29:43Z Shinmera: It kinda is because TCP gives you a solid, platform-independent way to do IPC even if you never go to the network. 2017-11-02T19:30:01Z Shinmera: So making the exchange fast on your local system can be very advantageous. 2017-11-02T19:30:34Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T19:32:33Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:32:56Z emaczen`: do other programming languages (mainstream or popular i.e. C++, Java, python etc...) allow non-error condition handling like lisp does? 2017-11-02T19:33:10Z shka: no 2017-11-02T19:33:14Z didi left #lisp 2017-11-02T19:33:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:33:47Z Ven is now known as Guest7149 2017-11-02T19:36:30Z _death: python still tried with StopIteration 2017-11-02T19:36:47Z shka: never heard of it 2017-11-02T19:38:13Z _death: https://docs.python.org/2/library/exceptions.html#exceptions.StopIteration 2017-11-02T19:38:43Z shka: uhm 2017-11-02T19:38:57Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:39:47Z shka: interesting 2017-11-02T19:39:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:40:47Z Bike: did not know re zero zero zero zero 2017-11-02T19:44:05Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T19:46:39Z earl-ducaine: beach re gui toolkits. McClim clx (the only pure cl backend, the last time I worked with it) isn't in my mind a very complete toolkit. But consider the claim retracted! 2017-11-02T19:51:48Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:52:18Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:53:22Z bgardner left #lisp 2017-11-02T19:53:41Z nonlinear joined #lisp 2017-11-02T19:55:55Z sjl: emaczen`: clojure's ribol library aims to replicate CL's condition system in clojure: http://docs.caudate.me/ribol/ 2017-11-02T19:56:01Z sjl: unsure how successful it is 2017-11-02T19:56:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T19:57:36Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-02T20:06:56Z dim: yet another Qmynd bug fixed! 2017-11-02T20:08:34Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Did we just seriously suggest TCP as a form of IPC? 2017-11-02T20:09:46Z Shinmera: Did we seriously just ask a dumb question instead of saying anything of consequence? 2017-11-02T20:09:47Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I mean, nothing wrong with TCP, as long as you mean via pipes 2017-11-02T20:12:47Z jmercouris: Shinmera: The issue I face is the suggestion of involving networking at all, way way way way too much overhead for IPC, too complex 2017-11-02T20:13:23Z Shinmera: I don't need to preface everything I say with "but it depends on the situation so choose wisely." 2017-11-02T20:13:33Z Shinmera: That should be fucking obvious 2017-11-02T20:13:47Z jmercouris: Shinmera: No, instead just avoid saying stupid things :) 2017-11-02T20:15:11Z _death: jmercouris: using TCP for IPC is very common 2017-11-02T20:15:14Z Shinmera: Look man what is your damage? 2017-11-02T20:15:43Z jmercouris: _death: In a relative sense, no, 99% of IPC will be via shared memory 2017-11-02T20:15:58Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Nothing, you just reacted so negatively, so I followed suite 2017-11-02T20:16:15Z Shinmera: jmercouris: The passive aggression started in your comment. HTH. 2017-11-02T20:16:59Z _death: jmercouris: just think interaction with databases, http requests, all kinds of message queues... 2017-11-02T20:17:01Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T20:17:22Z jmercouris: Shinmera: That is true, I'm sorry 2017-11-02T20:17:23Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T20:17:44Z jmercouris: I guess tone is hard to convey over the internet, I'll have to be more careful 2017-11-02T20:18:02Z Shinmera: 's all good 2017-11-02T20:18:09Z jmercouris: _death: All things considered, were still talking an extremely small percentage here, and nothing that requires significant bandwidth 2017-11-02T20:18:42Z _death: jmercouris: I don't have statistics, do you? 2017-11-02T20:19:39Z jmercouris: _death: I wish I did, I guess I could write a program that compares the speed of the two, that would be interesting 2017-11-02T20:20:18Z jtecca joined #lisp 2017-11-02T20:20:29Z _death: jmercouris: I am not talking about speed, but about the how common the use is, which you claim is an "extremely small percentage" 2017-11-02T20:20:40Z jmercouris: _death: Though there are lots of confounding variables that would be really hard to elimenate like OS scheduling, memory pressure etc 2017-11-02T20:20:58Z jmercouris: _death: "extremely small percentage" by volume, for sure 2017-11-02T20:21:04Z jmercouris: and by instances as well 2017-11-02T20:21:26Z jmercouris: for every web server that has a queue, with some db on it, interfacing with each other, there are magnitudes more users running processes with ipc on their systems 2017-11-02T20:21:35Z oleo2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T20:21:41Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T20:22:12Z jmercouris: I would imagine that there exist more systems, than websites, and on average windows system, the dominant model of communication is probably via shared memory or pipes or some other such mechanism, definitely not a network interface though 2017-11-02T20:23:47Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T20:23:51Z JenElizabeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-02T20:25:17Z _death: again, we're not on the same page then.. I'm not talking about the amount of calls to connect vs. mmap worldwide 2017-11-02T20:25:40Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-02T20:26:02Z _death: this is a programming channel, and we're talking about what mechanisms are chosen when considering IPC 2017-11-02T20:26:13Z jmercouris: _death: Okay, so, to be clear, you believe there is more volume, AND more instances of IPC via a network, than via pipes or shared memory? 2017-11-02T20:27:34Z jmercouris: Again, I don't have any real data on this, but my gut tells me that is false, because even your database example has somewhere a database machine, that most certainly involves more overhead in pipe/memory IPC for every request over the network 2017-11-02T20:27:42Z _death: no, I believe that the relative frequency of the choice of using TCP for IPC is higher than the one of shared memory for IPC 2017-11-02T20:28:04Z jmercouris: _death: Frequency in terms of number of applications that make that choice? 2017-11-02T20:28:05Z _death: but I didn't even claim that, I only claimed it was common 2017-11-02T20:28:23Z jmercouris: _death: also TCP can be used for IPC even if it is that we were using sockets 2017-11-02T20:28:56Z jmercouris: The reason why I made the statement at all was the suggestion to use the network interface to facilitate IPC, I don't care if it is TCP, as long as it is a fast channel 2017-11-02T20:29:20Z jmercouris: That is why I said, it makes way more sense to use pipes or shared memory, or sockets even 2017-11-02T20:29:21Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T20:30:09Z oleo2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T20:30:25Z _death: if it's on the same machine, the loopback interface can be used 2017-11-02T20:30:37Z jmercouris: _death: Perhaps it is common, and I am just living in a different bubble, but none of the applications I've worked on have every employed such a mechanism 2017-11-02T20:30:48Z jmercouris: _death: Yeah sure, it CAN be used, but I don't think it should be 2017-11-02T20:31:17Z jmercouris: _death: Maybe it is more common in the space that you work in, IDK 2017-11-02T20:34:19Z _death: well, maybe you are living in a different bubble.. for example, whenever I needed to use zeromq or somesuch, the default was tcp:// and there wasn't really a need to use anything else, although it's easy to change to ipc:// (or even inproc://) in some cases 2017-11-02T20:35:25Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T20:36:36Z _death: in cases like manipulating video frames on the fly, for example, you could certainly make the case that shared memory is the right approach.. but many cases have relatively small messages 2017-11-02T20:38:02Z _death: the advantage for tcp is that you can easily move on side to another machine 2017-11-02T20:38:11Z _death: *one side 2017-11-02T20:38:32Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-02T20:42:17Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-02T20:42:44Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-02T20:43:13Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T20:43:25Z jmercouris: _death: That is not the advantage of tcp, that is the advantage of communicating via a network interface 2017-11-02T20:43:57Z jmercouris: TCP != Network communication, even over a pseudo-interface 2017-11-02T20:44:21Z jmercouris: at any rate, you raise some valid points, portability across the network could be easier if you start with this "decoupled" idea in mind 2017-11-02T20:44:36Z _death: jmercouris: yeah, most programmers tend to use udp or tcp for their network-related work.. and use for the latter far outweights use for the former 2017-11-02T20:44:40Z jmercouris: though there are some OS that attempt to abstract this concept away from you for distributed computing in scientific clusters 2017-11-02T20:45:10Z caffe quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-02T20:47:44Z _death: jmercouris: I am familiar with such software.. both today and 15 years ago, when you'd use PVM/MPI, or worse, CORBA/DCOM, but usually your own ad-hoc sockets code to work on "beowulf clusters" or otherwise do stuff on COW ("cluster of workstations"..) 2017-11-02T20:49:20Z _death: in fact back then when I learned Lisp I used a nice pvm library.. http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/-ann-lpvm-0.0-common-lisp-bindings-for-pvm/696726 2017-11-02T20:50:06Z _death: that was 2007/2008 2017-11-02T20:50:19Z _death: no cloud 2017-11-02T20:50:21Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T20:52:37Z jtecca quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-11-02T20:55:02Z jmercouris: Interesting history, I didn't know that 2017-11-02T20:58:22Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-02T20:58:26Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-11-02T20:58:54Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T20:59:57Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T21:00:48Z _death: nowadays I'd likely use zeromq.. I tried it even for the video streaming case :), since I didn't have to do it quickly.. but it still very slow 2017-11-02T21:01:27Z _death: see https://github.com/death/FFmpeg/commit/91149048ecc8168475889a1a72f97febc13bc88a 2017-11-02T21:02:28Z aeth: But tcp isn't good for everything. If you need to be real time you have to reimplement half of tcp on top of udp. 2017-11-02T21:03:11Z _death: aeth: yeah, that's been known for many years ;) 2017-11-02T21:03:42Z _death: especially in game programming circles 2017-11-02T21:03:56Z aeth: too bad there's no game UDP library in CL yet afaik 2017-11-02T21:04:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T21:04:06Z aeth: So everyone is on their own when it comes to networking, at least for now. 2017-11-02T21:04:42Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T21:07:33Z earl-ducaine: XachX thanks for pointer to the quicklisp faq! Must have read it ages ago because I use some of the tricks mentioned on it, and just forgot the section on getting your project into quicklisp 2017-11-02T21:08:06Z XachX: earl-ducaine: that part is new ish 2017-11-02T21:09:21Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T21:14:03Z jmercouris: _death: Interesting 2017-11-02T21:14:50Z _death: jmercouris: for that case, shared memory would be much nicer 2017-11-02T21:18:08Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T21:18:11Z _death: jmercouris: but at the time I wanted to get on with my goal (something like "add black outline to hardcoded english subtitles in some black/white ingmar bergman movie") .. of course, after hours of ffmpeg hacking, I gave up and just watched it as-is 2017-11-02T21:19:56Z _death: (needed to work on a window of frames instead of one frame at a time..) 2017-11-02T21:22:21Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T21:23:39Z jmercouris: _death: I don't blame you ffmpeg is a beast 2017-11-02T21:24:15Z _death: jmercouris: well I worked with it a lot in my first job ;) 2017-11-02T21:31:43Z oleo2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T21:36:51Z rumbler31: shinmera: in your experience, does connecting a tcp socket through 0.0.0.0 do the same thing as connecting through 127.0.0.1? 2017-11-02T21:36:52Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T21:37:17Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T21:37:24Z rumbler31: iirc 0.0.0.0 tells the network stack to "listen on all interfaces" whereas 127.0.0.1 is a specific interface 2017-11-02T21:37:42Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T21:38:20Z Shinmera: rumbler31: Right, that part I misremembered. The point is that you connect to your own machine through the internal addresses. 2017-11-02T21:39:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T21:42:35Z Shinmera: Or, to be entirely precise, through a loopback interface. 2017-11-02T21:44:03Z oleo2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T21:45:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-02T21:46:40Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-02T21:48:35Z patche joined #lisp 2017-11-02T21:52:41Z muresanvlad_ quit (Quit: Byee.) 2017-11-02T21:59:58Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:02:19Z aeth: What's the standard convention for print-object? 2017-11-02T22:02:47Z Bike: what 2017-11-02T22:02:51Z aeth: e.g. should I use 'name instead of a hardcoded "NAME" or "name" so the print case rules are respected? 2017-11-02T22:03:12Z burton` joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:03:41Z pjb: aeth: you should respect the *print-…* variables indeed. 2017-11-02T22:03:41Z aeth: (format stream "#" ...) or (format stream "#<~A ~A ~A>" 'foo ...) or? 2017-11-02T22:03:57Z _death: the easy way is to use print-unreadable-object 2017-11-02T22:03:58Z pjb: aeth: use ~S so you get the package too! 2017-11-02T22:04:03Z Bike: could go either way 2017-11-02T22:04:17Z aeth: Should I include the memory address (how?) that is normally given but is basically useless? 2017-11-02T22:04:25Z pjb: :identity t 2017-11-02T22:04:28Z mfiano: Use PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT for identity 2017-11-02T22:04:29Z pjb: as you wish. 2017-11-02T22:04:41Z pjb: Also, the foo is printed automatically with :type t 2017-11-02T22:04:47Z Bike: if t hat's actually what you're printing you should use print unreadable object. 2017-11-02T22:04:55Z Shinmera: Whether to include the identity depends on whether the object has other identifying information you're going to print already or not. 2017-11-02T22:05:26Z Shinmera: Eg if you have a unique name, printing the identity too isn't going to be very helpful. 2017-11-02T22:10:10Z aeth: so e.g. for a shader I'd probably want something like this? (format stream "#<~S ~A ~A>" 'shader (name shader) (shader-type shader)) to produce "#" or "#" depending on the case rules 2017-11-02T22:10:17Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T22:10:28Z Shinmera: yes. 2017-11-02T22:10:34Z aeth: just the short, relevant, identifying parts and not e.g. the full source 2017-11-02T22:11:00Z Shinmera: Yes. 2017-11-02T22:11:15Z Shinmera: Otherwise a listing of your shaders is going to be unreadable 2017-11-02T22:11:31Z aeth: but anything without a name field should also do the address like the built-in prints? 2017-11-02T22:11:44Z Shinmera: If it's important that the objects can be distinguished. 2017-11-02T22:11:49Z Bike: the address is just a debugging aid. have whatever's convenient. 2017-11-02T22:11:55Z Shinmera: I mean, you should know yourself whether it's important. 2017-11-02T22:12:50Z asarch: Wow! Lisp so wonderful. It is the language that a novice from "Data Structures" from a C course should learn before learn to program in the C programming language 2017-11-02T22:13:09Z _death: I'd also use ~S for name/type 2017-11-02T22:13:35Z asarch: Can you actually develop an operating system entirely written in Lisp? 2017-11-02T22:13:37Z _death: ~A is for end-user, ~S is for programmer 2017-11-02T22:14:05Z aeth: asarch: Imo, C and C++ courses are as much about the quirks of C or C++ as the things they cover, which is a bad thing. 2017-11-02T22:14:22Z pjb: asarch: yes, it has been done several times. 2017-11-02T22:14:57Z pjb: asarch: eg. https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano 2017-11-02T22:16:08Z _death: aeth: also, if there are only two types of shader (say, fragment/vertex), I'd just write (F) or (V).. to make things less verbose 2017-11-02T22:16:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:16:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-02T22:16:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:17:28Z pjb: asarch: there has been operating systems written in almost every (old) programming languages. 2017-11-02T22:18:05Z asarch: Unix's Tao used to say: "A single line of the shell can save you from thousand lines from C" 2017-11-02T22:18:37Z asarch: I would like to add: "A single line from Lisp saves you from thousands lines of C" 2017-11-02T22:18:56Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:21:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:22:51Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-11-02T22:23:44Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:25:33Z mrottenkolber: From a network perspective, I think TCP stacks do IPC, but IPC don’t do TCP. When I think of IPC I think lock free shared memory ring buffers. YMMV. 2017-11-02T22:25:48Z aeth: _death: I am only using vertex/fragment atm but it wouldn't take much to also add geometry and the two levels of tessellation (compute would be trickier) 2017-11-02T22:28:03Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:28:38Z _death: aeth: ok, so maybe a shader-type-short could work.. but it's just my preference 2017-11-02T22:29:01Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:29:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:30:55Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:33:34Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T22:35:26Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:37:37Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:41:22Z jmercouris: mrottenkolber: You're absolutely correct, I was just pointing out that conceivably one could implement ipc on top of tcp via shared memory if they wanted to, for example, it would be awkward and weird, but possible 2017-11-02T22:45:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:48:41Z aeth: _death: I think it'd probably be better to use the semi-standard abbreviations instead of one char ones, which I think are probably vert frag tcs tes geo comp 2017-11-02T22:48:51Z aeth: At the very least, I know vert and frag are the right abbreviations 2017-11-02T22:49:12Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:49:59Z aeth: Hmm... The standard file extensions extensions (if not .glsl) are vert, tesc, tese, geom, frag, and comp 2017-11-02T22:50:09Z aeth: s/extensions extensions/extensions/ 2017-11-02T22:52:07Z aeth: source: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6432838/what-is-the-correct-file-extension-for-glsl-shaders/26531467#26531467 2017-11-02T22:52:22Z aeth: and that source is: https://www.khronos.org/opengles/sdk/tools/Reference-Compiler/ 2017-11-02T22:53:03Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-02T22:53:53Z basket joined #lisp 2017-11-02T23:03:46Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-02T23:04:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T23:06:07Z Guest7149 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'm trying to find the source directory (dangerous I know) of the system currently being loaded by ASDF and feeling very stupid encounting my usual asdf mental block. 2017-11-02T23:56:00Z earl-ducaine: Basically, execute (asdf:system-source-directory system) but instead of providing the system explicitly do something like: 2017-11-02T23:56:05Z earl-ducaine: (asdf:system-source-directory asdf:*current-system being loaded) 2017-11-02T23:56:14Z earl-ducaine: Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure that would even be a sensible thing to do... 2017-11-02T23:56:24Z earl-ducaine: So, maybe that feature is unavailable by design. 2017-11-02T23:57:28Z _death: asdf:system-relative-pathname 2017-11-02T23:57:55Z pillton: What do you need the directory for? 2017-11-02T23:57:59Z _death: you mean you don't know the current system's name? 2017-11-03T00:01:10Z earl-ducaine: _death thanks! But 'relative' part that I want is the for the system name not the base pathname. 2017-11-03T00:01:52Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:01:54Z pillton: Are you using the directory to locate "resources"? 2017-11-03T00:03:53Z earl-ducaine: _death that's an excellent question. :) I'd like to make it load time assignable because the system name might change (like it just did caused a slightly mysterious error) And the module it's in perhaps at some point might be taken out and made it's own system. 2017-11-03T00:04:00Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:05:56Z pillton: This might be of use then: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html 2017-11-03T00:06:05Z earl-ducaine: pillton It's legacy code that I don't want to totally rewrite at the moment just make a little more robust/flexible. The code does some load time magic that I don't completely understand. 2017-11-03T00:08:01Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:08:21Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:08:33Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:11:20Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T00:13:46Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:16:04Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:17:46Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:22:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:23:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T00:25:20Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-03T00:26:00Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:27:34Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T00:28:27Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:28:28Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T00:31:29Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:32:50Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:32:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:34:54Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:37:05Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T00:38:21Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:39:14Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:41:20Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:51:08Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:51:25Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-11-03T00:52:17Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:55:50Z earl-ducaine: Pillton Xach' blog post was exactly what I needed. Thanks! 2017-11-03T00:56:46Z Xach aims to please 2017-11-03T00:58:20Z isBEKaml quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T00:58:33Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T01:01:02Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-03T01:01:22Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T01:02:20Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-03T01:05:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T01:05:46Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-03T01:06:14Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-11-03T01:06:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T01:13:47Z Fare: In practice a line of lisp is worth only a few tens of lines of C, not a thousand. 2017-11-03T01:14:10Z Fare: Unless it's C code trying to metaprogram, in which case, yes, thousands. 2017-11-03T01:15:11Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T01:16:27Z patche joined #lisp 2017-11-03T01:17:53Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-11-03T01:23:04Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-03T01:24:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T01:27:00Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T01:28:11Z Zhivago: I was looking at some of beach's buffer code and thinking how much it looked like C/C++ at the level of lines. 2017-11-03T01:28:59Z Zhivago: But that's kind of to be expected as things converge toward expressions that better reflect intent rather than mechanism. 2017-11-03T01:29:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T01:29:27Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T01:36:31Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T01:47:22Z basket quit (Quit: bye) 2017-11-03T01:56:34Z lrvy joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:05:11Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:06:36Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:10:13Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:10:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-03T02:11:27Z krwq: how do I approach creating my own stream implementation? what do I have to implement? 2017-11-03T02:11:48Z krwq: I just want to wrap other stream 2017-11-03T02:15:42Z sjl: krwq: check out https://github.com/trivial-gray-streams/trivial-gray-streams (and the link in the README there) 2017-11-03T02:16:57Z krwq: sjl: thank you! will read this - before I reinvent the wheel - is there perhaps some kind of stream where i could create a view on the other stream (specifically limit its length) 2017-11-03T02:17:16Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:17:48Z sjl: krwq: I don't know of anything that does that off the top of my head, but you could certainly implement it with gray streams. 2017-11-03T02:17:57Z sjl: (of course it might exist and I just don't know about it) 2017-11-03T02:18:19Z krwq: sjl: sounds good - I'll try implementing for the exercise and if I find something in the future will replace 2017-11-03T02:19:09Z sjl: clhs trace 2017-11-03T02:19:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 2017-11-03T02:19:24Z sjl: is TRACE allowed to not work with built-in functions? 2017-11-03T02:19:57Z sjl: SBCL and CCL allow it, but ECL doesn't: 2017-11-03T02:20:02Z sjl: [ECL] USER> (trace car) 2017-11-03T02:20:04Z sjl: Debugger received error of type: SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR 2017-11-03T02:20:06Z sjl: Attempt to redefine function CAR in locked package. 2017-11-03T02:20:14Z sjl: wanted to make sure I'm not missing something in the spec 2017-11-03T02:21:44Z Bike: clhs 11.1.2.1.2 2017-11-03T02:21:45Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 2017-11-03T02:21:52Z Bike: "Tracing it (via trace)" 2017-11-03T02:22:02Z sjl: ahh 2017-11-03T02:22:19Z sjl: oh well 2017-11-03T02:22:21Z Bike: practically speaking, implementations probably try to avoid doing an actual function call for car 2017-11-03T02:22:27Z sjl: sure 2017-11-03T02:22:34Z sjl: car was just an example 2017-11-03T02:25:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:29:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T02:32:59Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:35:36Z Zisper quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-03T02:35:56Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:36:31Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T02:39:08Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T02:39:34Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-03T02:42:11Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:00:42Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:02:18Z dieggsy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2017-11-03T03:06:52Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:07:28Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-03T03:07:47Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:17:27Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:18:57Z Ziperino joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:19:34Z didi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:20:30Z AndChat-86400 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:20:35Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T03:21:20Z didi: How do you decide the parameter order between (fn collection element) and (fn element collection)? I've been using (fn element collection), like #'adjoin, but I feel like (fn collection element) is more common in CLOS. 2017-11-03T03:22:09Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:22:10Z Zhivago: I presume that you were inspired by (PUSH 10 X) ? 2017-11-03T03:22:28Z loke: didi: The difference is historical 2017-11-03T03:22:32Z didi: Zhivago: Maybe that too. 2017-11-03T03:22:37Z loke: Best example of confusion is NTH vs. AREF 2017-11-03T03:22:53Z didi: Zhivago: I usually try to get inspiration from the docs. 2017-11-03T03:23:09Z didi: loke: oic. Do you have some preference or guidance? 2017-11-03T03:23:27Z Ziperino quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:23:33Z Zhivago: aref needs the indices last to support things like (aref a 1 2 3) 2017-11-03T03:23:35Z loke: didi: Not really. But my feeling is that (op collection index) is much more common. 2017-11-03T03:23:56Z didi: Hum. 2017-11-03T03:24:06Z didi doesn't want to be a stranger 2017-11-03T03:24:12Z shrdlu68: Getf is another that's different than nth. 2017-11-03T03:24:12Z Zhivago: Yes, I'd generally expect it to be arranged like an accessor upon the container. 2017-11-03T03:24:18Z loke: didi: Right. But if NTH didn't have the historical baggage, there is no way they wouldn't have used the oppostie order. 2017-11-03T03:24:22Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:24:52Z didi: Zhivago: So (op collection element)? 2017-11-03T03:24:57Z Zhivago: Yeah. 2017-11-03T03:25:01Z didi: Oh well. 2017-11-03T03:25:11Z loke: Also SLOT-VALUE follows this system, so I think NTH is one of the rare ones that have the "opposite" order. 2017-11-03T03:25:12Z didi: Time to some query-replaces. 2017-11-03T03:25:25Z Zhivago: I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that parameters should always be named. 2017-11-03T03:25:45Z loke: Well, that, and PUSH 2017-11-03T03:25:47Z Zhivago: I think the verbosity would pay for itself overall. 2017-11-03T03:26:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:27:11Z loke: Zhivago: I see where you're coming from, but I still use positional parameters for “obvious” arguments. As long as it's a small number of them. I never use &REST by the way. Anything optional always gets a &KEY 2017-11-03T03:27:35Z loke: Sorry, I meant &OPTIONAL 2017-11-03T03:27:49Z aeth: didi: The older things like nth usually use (function index collection) and the newer things like aref have to use (function collection index) to be perfectly general because you could have multiple index arguments and using a literal list there is unnecessary if you put the indices last in things like aref 2017-11-03T03:28:06Z aeth: The only "new" seeming thing that goes (function index collection) is gethash 2017-11-03T03:28:18Z aeth: By new I mean probably introduced in 1975 instead of 1960 2017-11-03T03:28:31Z loke: :-) 2017-11-03T03:28:47Z didi: aeth: Thanks. 2017-11-03T03:28:51Z shrdlu68: Is #'assoc "new" or "old"? 2017-11-03T03:29:05Z aeth: alists are very old and predate plists, afaik. Some Lisps and Schemes only have alists. 2017-11-03T03:29:26Z aeth: Generally the forms with lots of parentheses like do seem to be older than the forms that prefer fewer parens like setf 2017-11-03T03:29:31Z Zhivago: The problem is that obviousness is like intuitiveness. 2017-11-03T03:29:57Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:31:52Z aeth: a minor advantage to putting the index last and the more general thing first is that it makes it more friendly to things like alexandria:curry, which is apparently more efficient than alexandria:rcurry. i.e. (curry elt foo-sequence) is apparently more efficient than (rcurry gethash foo-hash-table) 2017-11-03T03:32:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:32:23Z aeth: I'm not sure if this was fixed or determined to be unfixable when it was brought up before, about a year ago, about the difference between curry and rcurry 2017-11-03T03:32:26Z aeth: So this could be outdated 2017-11-03T03:32:27Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:34:31Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:38:25Z turkja: oh no.... i entered in total ASDF madness... accidentally updated ASDF and now lots of things are broken and cannot find a way to recover :( 2017-11-03T03:42:30Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-03T03:44:44Z didi: Hum, #'aref has &rest for the subscripts, but it could use a list, like #'make-array, couldn't it? 2017-11-03T03:45:17Z beach: It could have, but it's too late now. 2017-11-03T03:45:48Z didi: Sure. We were discussing parameter order: (op collection element) vs (op element collection) 2017-11-03T03:46:02Z beach: Sure. 2017-11-03T03:46:12Z aeth: didi: make-array has to have a list because it takes keyword arguments. aref probably looks cleaner without one. 2017-11-03T03:46:21Z aeth: although we'd have to interview the person who added aref to Lisp 2017-11-03T03:46:29Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-03T03:47:44Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:48:03Z pillton: You would end up doing this to avoid the consing: (let* ((subscripts (list 0 0))) (dotimes (i ...) (setf (elt subscripts 0) i) ...)) 2017-11-03T03:48:07Z didi: Hum, #'remove use (op element collection ...). 2017-11-03T03:48:22Z didi: pillton: Heh. 2017-11-03T03:48:57Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-03T03:50:07Z aeth: Personally I would do this. I would model indexable things like aref and make-array and vector (there is no #'array unfortunately, so it's not totally consistent). i.e. (foo 1 2 3) makes a simple foo with 1 2 3 (not always required to have this one), make-foo takes in keywords and is complicated, and (foo-ref foo index ...) would access if it's indexable 2017-11-03T03:50:16Z aeth: Although a lot of the time it's (named-thing foo) instead 2017-11-03T03:51:31Z Fare: looking for a name for the function that composes functions by flowing values left to right (reverse order from usual mathematical backwardness usually called compose). Here are my candidate names. Can you help me pick one of them and/or a better one? reverse-compose rcompose rcomp chaining chain sequentially seq 2017-11-03T03:51:58Z didi: rcompose 2017-11-03T03:52:31Z didi: aeth: Reminds me of Racket. 2017-11-03T03:52:47Z Zhivago: I'd prefer chain. 2017-11-03T03:54:48Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T03:54:54Z aeth: didi: Racket probably got the idea from CL 2017-11-03T03:55:29Z didi: aeth: Interesting. 2017-11-03T03:55:46Z aeth: Defining a make-foo gives a roughly consistent interface over structs (creates make-foo automatically), built-in things like sequences/hashes, objects (a thin wrapper over make-instance), and other things 2017-11-03T03:56:15Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T03:56:16Z aeth: It's a bit of a shame that make-foo isn't created automatically for CLOS objects like it is for structs, but CLOS makes you do more things manually, e.g. copying. 2017-11-03T03:56:27Z aeth: (at least afaik) 2017-11-03T03:56:47Z loke: aeth: Is it really? After all, (MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOO) is equivalent, and only marginally longer. 2017-11-03T03:57:19Z aeth: loke: but make-foo gives you a consistent interface to everything 2017-11-03T03:58:32Z loke: aeth: As does CLOSE. MAKE-INSTANCE is that consistent interface. 2017-11-03T03:58:35Z loke: CLOS 2017-11-03T03:59:59Z aeth: You can't (make-instance 'array) 2017-11-03T04:00:20Z loke: aeth: And you can't MAKE-INTEGER either :-) 2017-11-03T04:00:51Z aeth: You can. 2017-11-03T04:00:57Z Fare: I prefer chain, but I believe rcompose will be easier to understand :-/ 2017-11-03T04:01:07Z Fare: and less clashy 2017-11-03T04:01:23Z aeth: loke: I actually defined make-fixnum once because I made a macro that assumed that a type type has a make-type as well 2017-11-03T04:01:37Z aeth: obviously wouldn't scale to (unsigned-byte 8) or something 2017-11-03T04:01:51Z Fare: sequentially reminds me of constantly and isn't too bad a name, but not obvious enough, or symmetric with compose 2017-11-03T04:01:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T04:02:24Z loke: aeth: Right, but if you're allowed to create your own functions, then nothing stops you from hooking into MOP to add a MAKE-whatever function when a class is defined. 2017-11-03T04:02:25Z aeth: Actually, it could work. '|MAKE-(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)| 2017-11-03T04:02:29Z aeth: It'd be ugly but would work. 2017-11-03T04:02:36Z loke: Just add a method on INTIIALIZE-INSTANCE on the metaclass. 2017-11-03T04:03:38Z loke: (you probably need to add one for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE as well) 2017-11-03T04:03:44Z aeth: loke: I could and maybe I should. 2017-11-03T04:03:56Z aeth: I almost always create a make-foo for things as my consistent constructor for things. 2017-11-03T04:04:15Z loke: aeth: I prefer to use MAKE-INSTANCE when I create my instances. 2017-11-03T04:04:26Z aeth: yes, but now I have two ways to create things 2017-11-03T04:04:54Z aeth: I can't help the inconsistency in the spec (e.g. nth vs. elt) but I can in my own code 2017-11-03T04:05:19Z loke: If you put magic in your MAKE-xyz function, you end up with a problem where a user might not use the correct maker function and instead calls MAKE-INSTANCE directly. It's better to put the initialisation in the INITIALIZE-INSTANCE method. 2017-11-03T04:06:01Z aeth: That could be a feature, though. make-xyz sets it up for you, make-instance is if you know what you're doing. 2017-11-03T04:06:50Z aeth: Although it's probably better if initialize-instance does everything and make-instance is a thin inlined function that just does (make-instance 'foo) 2017-11-03T04:06:59Z aeth: s/and make-instance/and make-foo/ 2017-11-03T04:07:42Z loke: aeth: Nothing wrong with that, but the point is that using MAKE-INSTANCE should leave you will a fully functional, internally consistent object. 2017-11-03T04:08:04Z loke: If you need to do something outside of that, the name MAKE-whatever isn't usually the best choice. 2017-11-03T04:09:18Z aeth: I do like being able to assume that any foo has a make-foo, though. (And if one is missing, it's trivial to write one, which is what makes that assumption so good.) 2017-11-03T04:10:07Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T04:10:08Z loke: aeth: But you can't make that assumption unless you wrote all the code yourself. 2017-11-03T04:10:41Z Zhivago: The nice thing about make-foo is that it decouples the construction from any implementation decisions. 2017-11-03T04:10:46Z aeth: loke: I can't make that assumption if arbitrary foos that I have no control over are being used. But I don't need to write all the code myself. 2017-11-03T04:11:09Z aeth: e.g. I can write a make-fixnum if I need to use fixnums in something that assumes make-foos 2017-11-03T04:11:26Z Zhivago: The bad thing about make-foo is that it's decoupled from any implementation decisions, so you can't derive a make-foo from a class or type or anything. 2017-11-03T04:11:26Z aeth: And, even in a library, I could just make it clear that a make-foo is expected, although it would be trickier. 2017-11-03T04:19:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-11-03T04:20:55Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-03T04:28:05Z aeth: Zhivago: Yeah it might be a bit on the excessive abstraction side. It reminds me a bit of getters/setters and anything Java-ish could be seen as overly abstract 2017-11-03T04:28:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T04:31:17Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T04:33:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T04:33:50Z Zhivago: It might be useful to think of make-foo as essentially being an interface to a construction factory. 2017-11-03T04:34:48Z Zhivago: Then instead of saying, 'give me a red-black-dictionary' you're saying 'give me a dictionary suitable for this'. 2017-11-03T04:35:27Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T04:37:20Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T04:37:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T04:41:48Z didi: Hum. I haven't thought about the issue with make-foo vs initialize-instance. 2017-11-03T04:41:59Z beach: Good. 2017-11-03T04:42:13Z didi: It is? 2017-11-03T04:42:28Z beach: I think so. 2017-11-03T04:42:39Z didi: But I've been reckless! 2017-11-03T04:42:45Z beach: Your time is better spent thinking of other things. 2017-11-03T04:43:12Z didi: :-) 2017-11-03T04:52:11Z didi: I'm yet to explore CLOS' method combination. MOP is just at my far horizon. 2017-11-03T04:55:57Z loke: didi: I think I knoew method combinations at a reasonable level. However, I never had the need for them. 2017-11-03T04:56:26Z loke: I'm still waiting with anticipation for my first real use of them. :-) 2017-11-03T04:57:07Z drmeister: loke: Not to put you on the spot - but could you summarize what they are for? 2017-11-03T04:57:12Z didi: loke: I tried once, but it was clearly the wrong approach; just me trying to use it. 2017-11-03T04:57:54Z drmeister: It's one aspect of Common Lisp I am still pretty clueless about. 2017-11-03T04:58:23Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T04:58:47Z didi: I remember it exists when I write `initialize-instance' because of :after, and that's it. ;-) 2017-11-03T04:58:48Z beach: drmeister: Check the use of the APPEND method combination in Cleavir. 2017-11-03T04:58:48Z drmeister: They are a way of organizing methods that apply to a call - no? 2017-11-03T04:58:55Z loke: drmeister: I'm not entirely sure it's possible to explain “what they are for”. It's more of a question as to what they can do. 2017-11-03T05:00:19Z drmeister: Sure - that wasn't the best question. I was looking for anything to get a deeper understanding. 2017-11-03T05:00:21Z loke: drmeister: Simply put, in some cases, there may be more than one method that contributes to the result of a generic function invocation. Or, perhaps there is only one method that should be involved but that method should not be the "most specific" one. In such cases, method combinations can be useful. 2017-11-03T05:00:34Z beach: drmeister: I also use the + method combination in a MIDI library I wrote. The length of a message is the sum of the deltas of each subclass. 2017-11-03T05:00:49Z loke: drmeister: I think CLR (Common Lisp Recipies) have a pretty good explanation of them. 2017-11-03T05:02:14Z drmeister: Do method combinations allow one to specify how methods are selected that apply to a call? 2017-11-03T05:02:58Z didi: Oh, hey, new CL book. Cool. 2017-11-03T05:03:03Z didi: (CLR) 2017-11-03T05:03:50Z loke: drmeister: Yes. 2017-11-03T05:04:02Z loke: drmeister: If you implement your own method combination. 2017-11-03T05:04:39Z drmeister: Thank you 2017-11-03T05:05:30Z pfdietz_: CLR is from 2016, isn't it? New edition? 2017-11-03T05:07:54Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-11-03T05:09:19Z coffeemug joined #lisp 2017-11-03T05:09:21Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T05:09:34Z loke: pfdietz_: It's a fairly new book. 2017-11-03T05:10:01Z coffeemug: ahhh, it's been a *very* long time 2017-11-03T05:10:26Z drmeister: beach: Yes - you use the append method combination for saving slots of AST nodes. 2017-11-03T05:16:58Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-03T05:18:18Z coffeemug is now known as spakhm 2017-11-03T05:18:38Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-03T05:27:01Z spakhm left #lisp 2017-11-03T05:27:56Z didi left #lisp 2017-11-03T05:29:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T05:32:41Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-11-03T05:33:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T05:33:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T05:34:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T05:35:21Z beach: drmeister: Yes, and that is because each subclass contributes to a set of initarg/accessor pairs, and the generic function should return a list of all of them. If I hadn't done it this way, each class would have had to mention information about its superclasses explicitly, which is not very maintainable. 2017-11-03T05:36:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T05:39:30Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T05:42:05Z beach: Similarly, for the classes corresponding to MIDI messages, each subclass represents an addition of one or more bytes of transmitted data, and the LENGTH function must sum up the contributions of each class and all its superclasses, so the + method combination is ideal here. 2017-11-03T05:56:35Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T05:57:18Z heurist joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:02:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:09:37Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:14:25Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:14:57Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:18:50Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T06:22:12Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:22:19Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T06:22:59Z oleo2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:26:27Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:29:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:29:53Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T06:30:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:30:30Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T06:31:35Z mathrick_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:33:09Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T06:34:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:36:36Z shrdlu68 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T06:38:17Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:38:50Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:41:47Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:43:05Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:44:10Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:49:06Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-03T06:50:48Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T06:59:07Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T07:01:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:02:36Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:04:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:05:36Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:06:18Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:07:16Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:13:17Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:15:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:18:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T07:19:04Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:19:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:24:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:25:37Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:30:09Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:30:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:31:57Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:34:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:35:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:39:09Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:39:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:41:41Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:43:36Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:43:49Z Marumarsu joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:44:10Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:45:25Z takitus is now known as takitus|afk 2017-11-03T07:47:28Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-03T07:48:41Z spakhm joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:48:48Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-03T07:49:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:49:44Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T07:51:38Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T07:53:11Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:57:53Z Uneliasmarsu joined #lisp 2017-11-03T07:58:04Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T07:58:29Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T07:59:29Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:00:24Z thebardian quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-03T08:01:43Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:02:00Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:03:21Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:03:30Z dmiles: how do i tell if a symbol has been declared via DEFPARAMETER vs someone setq'd it ? 2017-11-03T08:03:47Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:05:19Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:06:01Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:06:43Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:07:25Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:08:24Z Marumarsu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T08:08:26Z Uneliasmarsu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T08:09:09Z Zhivago: The latter case has undefined behavior. Do you mean DEFPARAMETER vs DEFVAR? 2017-11-03T08:09:30Z solene joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:10:16Z dmiles: that would be nice DEFPARAMETER vs DEFVAR 2017-11-03T08:10:25Z Zhivago: Why do you care? 2017-11-03T08:10:40Z dmiles: (I assumed though that they are not distinquishable) 2017-11-03T08:11:05Z solene: hello, is it possible to evaluate a function when I get a variable value ? Like I want to store (print "test") in a variable and if I type *variable* in my REPL I get "hello" ? 2017-11-03T08:11:35Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:11:54Z Zhivago: Do you mean store (print test) and later get "hello" printed, assuming the value of test is then "hello"? 2017-11-03T08:12:09Z solene: yes I think 2017-11-03T08:12:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:12:30Z jackdaniel: you'd have to wrap your repl in symbol-macrolet I think 2017-11-03T08:12:31Z dmiles: Zhivago: i am trying to decide if i should pass values to subthreads and if a thread should shadow the bindings per thread 2017-11-03T08:12:34Z Zhivago: Have you considered symbol-macros? 2017-11-03T08:12:35Z jackdaniel: nothink you normally want to do 2017-11-03T08:12:46Z jackdaniel: nothing* 2017-11-03T08:13:02Z solene: Zhivago, no 2017-11-03T08:13:09Z Zhivago: There is also define-symbol-macro. 2017-11-03T08:13:23Z Zhivago: I do not recommend it, but if you really want to do this, I would start there. 2017-11-03T08:13:45Z Zhivago: dmiles: I would consider using a code-walker to extract this information. 2017-11-03T08:15:36Z solene: In fact, I'm writting an interactive software, currently you need to type something like (g 44) I would have like to type g44 instead, it's easier 2017-11-03T08:15:56Z solene: I wanted to store the function (g 44) inside g44 variable 2017-11-03T08:16:58Z dmiles: Zhivago: right on.. actually i am sorta gettign the information as the system is loaded.. i was tryinmg to start out wityh the symbols that were already external to common lisp 2017-11-03T08:17:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:17:44Z pjb: solene: (defparameter *my-fun* (lambda () (print "hello"))) (funcall *my-fun*) 2017-11-03T08:18:21Z dmiles: i can probably get away with treating non defconstants as dynamic (each thread keeps dynamic vars shadow bound) 2017-11-03T08:18:36Z pjb: solene: (let ((g44 (g 44))) (funcall g44)) 2017-11-03T08:20:29Z loke: There is always symbol macros. 2017-11-03T08:20:35Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-11-03T08:21:27Z solene: pbj: the idea was to type less, not more :) 2017-11-03T08:21:53Z Marumarsu joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:22:46Z pjb: solene: if you want something more sophisticated: http://paste.lisp.org/display/360149 2017-11-03T08:23:45Z solene: pjb, interesting 2017-11-03T08:23:51Z loke: (defun foo () ...) (define-symbol-macro foo '(foo)) 2017-11-03T08:25:16Z solene: loke, nice !! 2017-11-03T08:26:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:27:00Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:29:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:31:59Z spakhm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T08:31:59Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:35:20Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:40:18Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:46:03Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:51:13Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:51:17Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:54:35Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T08:59:08Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T08:59:23Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T08:59:41Z beach: solene: If your interactive software is going to have an evaluation rule that is that different from the one that Common Lisp proposes, it is probably easier to write your own REPL. 2017-11-03T09:00:13Z arduo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:00:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:01:33Z spakhm joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:02:44Z jackdaniel: having naked toplevel symbols running functions is similar to commands in clim-listener 2017-11-03T09:03:12Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:03:22Z beach: Indeed. So does that suggest a solution? 2017-11-03T09:04:26Z jackdaniel: in some sense yes – if we consider clim-listener REPL as acceptable Common Lisp repl, then what solene wants to do fits in the same jar 2017-11-03T09:04:28Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:04:54Z beach: Sure. 2017-11-03T09:05:36Z beach: Don't we use `,' to run those, just like in SLIME, though? 2017-11-03T09:05:54Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T09:06:24Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:06:35Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T09:09:21Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:09:25Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T09:09:49Z jackdaniel: yes, still it is different than CL evaluation rule (toplevel , isn't considered valid syntax) 2017-11-03T09:10:19Z beach: Right. 2017-11-03T09:10:19Z jackdaniel: also I think I've read somewhere that ',' was optional in some clim, but I may be wrong 2017-11-03T09:10:31Z jackdaniel: and there was a special variable deciding the interpretation 2017-11-03T09:10:42Z jackdaniel: whenever we interpret such symbols as commands or variables 2017-11-03T09:10:42Z beach: That is entirely possible. 2017-11-03T09:12:37Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:14:15Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T09:18:01Z scymtym: Xach: if nobody else is interested, i would like to (or kind of am forced to) take over maintenance of let-plus, nibbles and the cxml libraries, if possible under the sharplispers umbrella. would you support this? 2017-11-03T09:22:12Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:24:58Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:30:19Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T09:31:02Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:38:52Z Marumarsu quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T09:39:15Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:40:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:45:22Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-03T09:48:43Z spakhm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T09:50:38Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:51:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T09:53:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:53:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:53:58Z Ven is now known as Guest33365 2017-11-03T09:55:49Z chronull joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:55:50Z chronull quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-11-03T09:56:14Z chronull joined #lisp 2017-11-03T09:57:50Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T09:59:59Z XachX: scymtym: sure! 2017-11-03T10:06:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:07:01Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:07:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:07:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-03T10:07:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:11:35Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:14:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:14:42Z scymtym: XachX: great, thanks. afaict, let-plus and nibbles should not require any additional statements by the respective authors since both publicly declared their libraries as unmaintained. i'm not aware of an explicit statement like that for the cxml author, but he has not responded to patches sent by sbcl developers when cxml would have needed fixing 2017-11-03T10:15:17Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:18:25Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:18:44Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:18:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-03T10:19:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:19:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-03T10:19:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:19:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:20:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-03T10:24:41Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:27:27Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:27:58Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:32:18Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:39:01Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:39:18Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:39:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:43:40Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:44:27Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:46:42Z mfiano: scymtym: I tried using let-plus a few months ago and I reported a bug. However, the author closed the issue on GH due to him moving to Julia, instead of leaving it open for the next maintainer for some reason. I would consider using it again if that is resolved. 2017-11-03T10:47:10Z dim: can you solve the bug? 2017-11-03T10:48:08Z mfiano: I was not familiar enough with the macrology of that project to have any success, and its low priority for me. 2017-11-03T10:50:41Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T10:51:57Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T10:51:59Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T10:53:29Z Guest33365 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I strongly disagree with USE'ing packages most of the time. 2017-11-03T11:31:38Z fe[nl]ix: luis: ping 2017-11-03T11:32:09Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T11:32:37Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:33:15Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:33:38Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:34:22Z Zhivago: You can always import an explicit set of symbols. 2017-11-03T11:35:53Z mfiano: I find importing symbols into the current package makes the code harder to understand, especially to a non-developer or future maintainer. 2017-11-03T11:36:04Z mfiano: I think I share the same stance as beach here. 2017-11-03T11:36:15Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:36:40Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:36:50Z Zhivago: Do you write common-lisp:+ ? 2017-11-03T11:37:51Z Zhivago: I think there's some trade-off between surprise and convenience. 2017-11-03T11:38:02Z mfiano: No, I do USE CL. Importing other packages' symbols into the current package is indistinguishable from the CL package at a glance is what I mean. 2017-11-03T11:38:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T11:39:45Z Zhivago: Sure, and there's a cost associated with that -- just as there's a cost associated with having flooble-wooble: on the front of half of your symbols. 2017-11-03T11:40:00Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:40:25Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-03T11:40:49Z phoe_: flooble-wooble, hm 2017-11-03T11:41:36Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T11:43:53Z mfiano: That's why I stated 'most of the time'. For a utility library I could make an exception I suppose, if I really needed to make use of it. 2017-11-03T11:47:27Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:48:23Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:51:34Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:51:51Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:52:01Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:52:42Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T11:55:50Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-03T11:56:13Z Ven is now known as Guest43736 2017-11-03T11:58:30Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T12:01:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-03T12:01:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T12:04:16Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-03T12:07:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T12:08:25Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-11-03T12:10:45Z glamas quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-03T12:13:35Z nzst joined #lisp 2017-11-03T12:13:43Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-03T12:15:11Z Guest43736 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'll explain my question more next... 2017-11-03T13:10:54Z drmeister: If I install a system with quicklisp I see a directory like: ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/babel-20170630-git 2017-11-03T13:11:28Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T13:14:50Z drmeister: We have a (very temporary) hacked version of 'ironclad' that I want to install in quicklisp/local-projects that I'd like to call something like: quicklisp/local-projects/ironclad-xxx-gutted-and-hacked-do-not-use as a note to my future self to delete it at the first available opportunity. 2017-11-03T13:15:39Z Shinmera: drmeister: directories make no difference 2017-11-03T13:15:59Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T13:16:00Z Shinmera: drmeister: systems are identified by their asd file, which has to have the same name as the system itself. 2017-11-03T13:16:03Z phoe_: aren't the ASD systems the important thing here? 2017-11-03T13:16:10Z drmeister: Ah 2017-11-03T13:16:14Z drmeister: That's great 2017-11-03T13:16:17Z drmeister: Thanks 2017-11-03T13:16:37Z phoe_: so put your hacked ironclad into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ironclad and load it from there 2017-11-03T13:16:42Z phoe_: but I wonder what happens when there's a conflict 2017-11-03T13:16:49Z Shinmera: "conflict"? 2017-11-03T13:16:51Z phoe_: between ironclad and ironclad-xxx-gutted-and-hacked-do-not-use 2017-11-03T13:16:57Z phoe_: yes, if both have an ironclad.asd file inside 2017-11-03T13:17:03Z Shinmera: Quicklisp prefers local-projects systems 2017-11-03T13:17:06Z drmeister: I deleted the real ironclad for now. 2017-11-03T13:17:07Z phoe_: two directories in local-projects, each claiming they have ironclad.asd 2017-11-03T13:17:11Z Shinmera: and if there's multiple in there, if I remember correctly it picks the first it finds. 2017-11-03T13:17:17Z phoe_: I see. 2017-11-03T13:17:26Z phoe_: drmeister: you should be good to go then 2017-11-03T13:17:39Z Shinmera: you can check which one is used by looking in the system-index.txt 2017-11-03T13:17:51Z drmeister: Clasp can't compile ironclad at the moment because the enormous functions that are generated by ironclad macroexpansion give the Boehm GC fits. 2017-11-03T13:18:06Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T13:18:17Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-03T13:18:43Z drmeister: So Bike hacked it for us so that we can get cl-jupyter to work. 2017-11-03T13:21:42Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-03T13:23:06Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T13:25:17Z devon` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T13:26:57Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T13:29:02Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-03T13:33:08Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-03T13:33:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T13:34:54Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-11-03T13:37:27Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T13:37:51Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T13:38:14Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 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2017-11-03T15:06:29Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:06:45Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T15:10:37Z Xach: If there are multiple systems of the same name in local-projects, it picks the one with the shortest pathname namestring. 2017-11-03T15:10:53Z Xach: And if the length is the same, it prefers alphabetical order. 2017-11-03T15:11:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:11:15Z live__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:11:35Z dlowe: thanks for making it deterministic 2017-11-03T15:11:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:12:24Z doby162 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-03T15:13:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:13:20Z scymtym: Xach: how can i make/request new sharplispers repositories? 2017-11-03T15:13:55Z Bike: the do-symbols macros can hit a symbol more than once... is there a good way to avoid that or should i just maintain a seen list? 2017-11-03T15:14:13Z Xach: scymtym: I can add you as a member of the org 2017-11-03T15:14:26Z Xach: scymtym: are you scymtym on github? 2017-11-03T15:14:37Z scymtym: Xach: thank you and yes 2017-11-03T15:15:14Z Xach: scymtym: ok, invitation sent 2017-11-03T15:16:02Z caseyowo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-03T15:16:18Z scymtym: Xach: worked, thanks again 2017-11-03T15:18:18Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:19:59Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T15:21:02Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:21:21Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:22:46Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:23:01Z Xach: looking forward to the request to change the repos 2017-11-03T15:24:45Z scymtym: sure. nibbles is already there, though. missed that earlier 2017-11-03T15:25:44Z doby162 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:26:55Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:29:04Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:37:27Z Xach: beach, jackdaniel: clim now implicitly depends on sb-introspect. this should be made explicit in the system file. 2017-11-03T15:37:53Z beach: Ouch, I wonder whether that's normal. 2017-11-03T15:39:29Z scymtym: probably my fault 2017-11-03T15:39:32Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, that is last PR from scymtym 2017-11-03T15:39:35Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:39:36Z jackdaniel: I'll take care of it 2017-11-03T15:39:44Z jackdaniel: small fix and I have a buffer open 2017-11-03T15:39:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:42:21Z jackdaniel: Xach: thanks, fixed in develop 2017-11-03T15:42:32Z jackdaniel: hm, I'll fix it in master maybe 2017-11-03T15:43:04Z scymtym: jackdaniel: did you use :depends-on (… (:feature :sbcl #:sb-introspect) …)? 2017-11-03T15:43:06Z beach: Don't we have a trivial-introspection system somewhere? 2017-11-03T15:43:10Z jackdaniel: fixed in master 2017-11-03T15:43:21Z jackdaniel: I've used :depends-on (#:clim-basic #:clim-postscript #+sbcl (:require #:sb-introspect)) 2017-11-03T15:43:27Z jackdaniel: require 2017-11-03T15:44:07Z scymtym: i see. i wonder whether (:feature :sbcl (:require #:sb-introspect)) would work 2017-11-03T15:44:14Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:44:39Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T15:44:42Z jackdaniel: I don't use :feature nor :if-feature in ASDF, because they are broken for older versions 2017-11-03T15:44:59Z scymtym: fair enough 2017-11-03T15:45:00Z jackdaniel: that can break the dependency tree even on 3.2.x 2017-11-03T15:45:42Z jackdaniel: (I had to locally fix the problem in 3.1.7 which is bundled with ECL, some crude bug for program-op) 2017-11-03T15:45:54Z jackdaniel: s/for/in/ 2017-11-03T15:49:21Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:51:29Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:53:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T15:54:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:01:19Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T16:04:37Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:04:44Z zmt00 quit (Remote host closed 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2017-11-03T16:36:47Z beach: pankracy: Because it's an illegal expression. 2017-11-03T16:36:59Z pankracy: why is this illegal expression? 2017-11-03T16:37:08Z pankracy: can I make familiar closure in cl? 2017-11-03T16:37:08Z _death: the car should be an operator name or a lambda expression 2017-11-03T16:37:34Z sjl: stylewarning: my previous PR is here https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/pull/38 2017-11-03T16:37:57Z beach: pankracy: Perhaps you are thinking of Scheme or some other language that allows this. 2017-11-03T16:38:14Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T16:38:28Z pankracy: beach: so how should I write this in common lisp? 2017-11-03T16:38:38Z pankracy: I want to make a closure 2017-11-03T16:38:56Z beach: You can make a closure no problem, but you need to use funcall to call it. 2017-11-03T16:39:02Z pankracy: basically, I want a function which returns the function which is parametrized 2017-11-03T16:39:12Z sjl: stylewarning: my question/comment in there is still a question I have 2017-11-03T16:39:25Z stylewarning: Ok ill look sjl 2017-11-03T16:39:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:39:34Z sjl: stylewarning: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/issues/34 was the relevant issue 2017-11-03T16:39:45Z pankracy: beach: can you give me more tips here? 2017-11-03T16:39:49Z Zhivago: pankracy: (funcall ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 4) 3) 2017-11-03T16:39:53Z beach: pankracy: (funcall (funcall (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 4) 3) 2017-11-03T16:39:56Z beach: Something like that. 2017-11-03T16:40:18Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:40:32Z pankracy: Zhivago, beach: thx 2017-11-03T16:41:01Z pankracy: and why this funcall is necessary here? 2017-11-03T16:42:07Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T16:42:36Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:43:42Z stylewarning: sjl: looks like my opinions weren’t so unreasonable 2017-11-03T16:43:55Z beach: pankracy: Because Common Lisp does not evaluate the first element of a composite form. 2017-11-03T16:44:03Z sjl: stylewarning: the seem pretty reasonable 2017-11-03T16:44:22Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T16:44:50Z Zhivago: funcall is necessary to call a function by value rather than name. 2017-11-03T16:44:50Z sjl: I think I have addressed them as well (inlining the function) 2017-11-03T16:44:57Z sjl: unless I'm missing something 2017-11-03T16:45:09Z beach: pankracy: It is treated specially and can only be either the name of a function or a lambda expression, but not any expression that evaluates to a function. 2017-11-03T16:45:21Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:45:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:45:34Z Zhivago: As ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 4) is not a function name, it is evaluated to a value, which as a function can be called via funcall. 2017-11-03T16:47:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T16:47:49Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:47:50Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:50:41Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T16:51:43Z SAL9000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T16:51:57Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:54:56Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:55:03Z takitus|afk is now known as takitus 2017-11-03T16:55:43Z sjl: also if anyone feels like proofreading some docs I finished writing last night for a CL library, I'd appreciate it: https://sjl.bitbucket.io/chancery/ 2017-11-03T16:55:48Z sjl: (specifically the Usage doc) 2017-11-03T16:56:08Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T16:57:38Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-11-03T16:58:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T16:59:10Z mn3m quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-03T16:59:32Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:00:22Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:02:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:02:26Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:02:46Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:03:03Z jmercouris: sjl: Perhaps list the exceptions in some appendix for; Most kinds of objects (e.g. strings, keywords, numbers) evaluate to themselves, but there are a few exceptions 2017-11-03T17:03:07Z jmercouris: and provide a link to that 2017-11-03T17:03:33Z sjl: jmercouris: well, the exceptions are the things listed in the following paragraphs 2017-11-03T17:03:48Z sjl: but I thought about having a little table summarizing the evaluation rules 2017-11-03T17:03:59Z sjl: might be worth doing just as a reference 2017-11-03T17:04:00Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:04:02Z jmercouris: Yeah a little table view 2017-11-03T17:04:12Z jmercouris: and perhaps a cheat sheet to accompany the usage 2017-11-03T17:04:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:05:16Z pankracy: Zhivago: thx 2017-11-03T17:05:35Z gabc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:05:46Z sjl: yeah 2017-11-03T17:06:08Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:06:20Z gabc joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:06:24Z jmercouris: sjl: "The Zipf distribution can itself take an argument..." -> "The Zipf distribution can take an argument..." 2017-11-03T17:06:51Z sjl: jmercouris: remove "itself"? I guess that also works 2017-11-03T17:07:07Z jmercouris: Yeah, remove itself, it is redundant 2017-11-03T17:07:22Z jmercouris: "macro evaluates vanilla Chancery expressions", what is the purpose of the word vanilla? 2017-11-03T17:07:28Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:07:51Z jmercouris: "so Chancery includes some syntax and a few helper..." -> "so Chancery includes some syntax, and a few helper..." 2017-11-03T17:07:51Z sjl: to distinguish it from the "string expressions" mentioned later in the sentence 2017-11-03T17:08:16Z sjl: nah, that comma isn't necessary 2017-11-03T17:08:29Z sjl: I overuse commas as it is -- no need to add more :) 2017-11-03T17:09:28Z sjl: I see I missed a trailing paren in `cap-all capitalizes each word in its argument.)` 2017-11-03T17:09:57Z jmercouris: "If you want some less trivial examples than the ones seen here you might..." -> "If you want some less trivial examples than the ones seen here, you might..." 2017-11-03T17:10:15Z sjl: yeah that comma might be good 2017-11-03T17:10:53Z jmercouris: Looks good otherwise, it was an easy read, well done! 2017-11-03T17:11:07Z sjl: thanks 2017-11-03T17:11:10Z sjl: now to get it into QL 2017-11-03T17:11:39Z sjl: doesn't have too many deps and the tests pass in sbcl/abcl/ecl/ccl so hopefully it should be smooth 2017-11-03T17:11:39Z jmercouris: My only other suggestion is I feel as if the footer is too SF, and I don't think it has any value add for the end user 2017-11-03T17:11:49Z sjl: SF? 2017-11-03T17:12:01Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:12:02Z jmercouris: too "San Francisco", "Silicon Valley" 2017-11-03T17:12:15Z sjl has never been to San Francisco 2017-11-03T17:12:17Z jmercouris: they always have those "Made with love in X" at the bottom of every startup single page landing page 2017-11-03T17:12:30Z beach: Science Fiction, Svensk Filmindustri. 2017-11-03T17:12:41Z sjl: yeah Scifi is what jumped to my mind 2017-11-03T17:12:43Z jmercouris: Yeah, definitely I meant Svensk Filmindustri :D 2017-11-03T17:13:01Z beach: jmercouris: This is a very international crowd. 2017-11-03T17:13:13Z beach: Sometimes, US cultural references are totally lost on people here. 2017-11-03T17:13:21Z beach: Make that "often". 2017-11-03T17:13:36Z sjl: I mean, I live in the US now, but on the other coast. 2017-11-03T17:13:42Z sjl: the US is a large place 2017-11-03T17:14:09Z jmercouris: Yeah, I work with a lot of people from SF, so it is kind of always SF in my mind as the city 2017-11-03T17:14:14Z Bike: i used to live near the silicon forest, which i suppose would also be SF 2017-11-03T17:14:46Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:14:55Z Bike: at least that one has more actual hardware people versus silicon valley's startup uber for dogs state 2017-11-03T17:15:19Z jmercouris: beach: I often forget different contexts, even though I should know better, considering I am a double citizen myself 2017-11-03T17:15:39Z beach: Germany was it? 2017-11-03T17:15:42Z jmercouris: Bike: Uber for dogs sounds like a phenomenal idea 2017-11-03T17:15:54Z jmercouris: beach: I live in Germany, I'm from Greece, and grew up in the US 2017-11-03T17:15:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:16:02Z beach: I see. 2017-11-03T17:16:22Z jmercouris: Well, I live in Germany about half the time, I also most recently was living in NL 2017-11-03T17:16:30Z sjl: I mean, they do have a Dog Prison startup http://www.dogparker.com/ 2017-11-03T17:16:37Z sjl: Uber for dogs doesn't seem too farFETCHED 2017-11-03T17:16:47Z Bike: wow. 2017-11-03T17:16:52Z jmercouris: That is absolutely terrible 2017-11-03T17:17:26Z jmercouris: sjl: Ba dum tshhhh! :D 2017-11-03T17:24:02Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-03T17:31:18Z Josh_2` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T17:31:22Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T17:31:31Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:31:57Z Shinmera: Why am I doing this to myself https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRRME13PT0= 2017-11-03T17:32:13Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:32:44Z jackdaniel: so you say you write C in Lisp? that makes CL, so it works I suppose 2017-11-03T17:32:54Z jackdaniel: speaking of bad jokes 2017-11-03T17:34:06Z eudoxia: Shinmera: next up, declaim-ftype and declare-type declarations :D 2017-11-03T17:34:27Z shka: gosh, i freaking love lparallel 2017-11-03T17:34:33Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Whatever for? 2017-11-03T17:34:41Z eudoxia: Shinmera: gotta go fast 2017-11-03T17:35:10Z Shinmera: I'll trust CFFI and inlining to do the right thing for me already. 2017-11-03T17:35:47Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:36:12Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:36:23Z mathi_aihtam left #lisp 2017-11-03T17:36:40Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T17:38:37Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:44:08Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:47:53Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:49:21Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:50:24Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-03T17:55:45Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:58:48Z mathi_aihtam_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T17:59:01Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T17:59:01Z mathi_aihtam_ is now known as mathi_aihtam 2017-11-03T18:00:41Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T18:01:08Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:02:43Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-11-03T18:06:01Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T18:06:04Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:06:27Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T18:07:24Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:07:41Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T18:10:27Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T18:12:00Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:12:11Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T18:14:54Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T18:14:55Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T18:23:15Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-03T18:23:18Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T18:26:49Z doby162 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T18:26:53Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:28:12Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-03T18:29:24Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:29:51Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T18:30:31Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:31:58Z _main_0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T18:32:17Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-03T18:33:19Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:33:43Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-03T18:36:30Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2017-11-03T18:44:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T18:48:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:49:18Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T18:52:50Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T18:53:26Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:54:14Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-03T18:57:37Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T18:58:56Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:01:22Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:01:42Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T19:01:47Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:11:36Z stylewarning: sjl: Merged! 2017-11-03T19:12:21Z sjl: thanks. I have a few other commits in my repo, not sure if you're interested in them 2017-11-03T19:12:21Z Guest27335 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-03T19:13:12Z sjl: specifically https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/commit/de535e4321658e09b920452eab74d55934908441 and https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/commit/e0a1193dbbfd8b075d79a2bda4677bf8b00ca241 2017-11-03T19:13:38Z sjl: to make detecting special events (which don't directly translate to a character) a bit easier 2017-11-03T19:15:00Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-03T19:17:29Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2017-11-03T19:21:26Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-03T19:24:57Z antoszka: BTW, sbcl-1.4.1 has been released (ops, please update *topic*). 2017-11-03T19:26:07Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-11-03T19:26:08Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T19:26:25Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:26:34Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:27:07Z shka: cool! 2017-11-03T19:27:20Z shka: let's check what's new 2017-11-03T19:27:49Z shka: complex arrays can be stack allocated yay! 2017-11-03T19:28:15Z Rawriful quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-03T19:28:34Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:29:45Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:30:53Z nzst: what does that mean? 2017-11-03T19:32:29Z nzst: nevermind, I looked up complex array. 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Rather than just allowing for multi-disk storage, a complex array can really micro-manage the use of multiple disks to create optimal data transfer and storage solutions." ... according to 2017-11-03T19:38:08Z Bike: that must be it. 2017-11-03T19:38:27Z shka: heh 2017-11-03T19:39:14Z edgar-rft: then it's good that it can be stack-allocated 2017-11-03T19:40:40Z edgar-rft: looking-up things via Google definitely helps a lot 2017-11-03T19:43:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:43:54Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-03T19:47:04Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-03T19:48:32Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T19:50:05Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T20:00:18Z nzst left #lisp 2017-11-03T20:05:11Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-11-03T20:06:52Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-03T20:14:22Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-03T20:15:58Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T20:18:48Z EvW 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SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-04T05:08:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:09:48Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:10:27Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:11:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:13:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:13:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:14:45Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T05:21:39Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-11-04T05:23:13Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:23:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:25:14Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:27:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:27:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:28:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:30:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:30:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:30:57Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T05:31:23Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-04T05:32:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:33:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:33:58Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T05:35:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:35:44Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T05:36:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:36:32Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T05:37:19Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:37:21Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:38:00Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:38:37Z asarch: In the book "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" they refer to "PCL". What is that? "Practical Common Lisp"? 2017-11-04T05:38:55Z beach: Portable Common Loops. 2017-11-04T05:39:02Z asarch: Thank you! 2017-11-04T05:39:07Z beach: An implementation of CLOS. 2017-11-04T05:39:33Z beach: That implementation is meant to be used on a pre-ANSI Common Lisp implementation to add CLOS to it. 2017-11-04T05:40:19Z asarch: And what do the star and the broom icons next to the code mean? 2017-11-04T05:40:36Z beach: The broom means MOP. 2017-11-04T05:40:42Z beach: I forget what the star means. 2017-11-04T05:42:00Z asarch: Thank you very much beach 2017-11-04T05:42:03Z asarch: Thank you :-) 2017-11-04T05:42:11Z beach: Anytime. 2017-11-04T05:43:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:43:34Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:44:32Z asarch: Why books are expensive? 2017-11-04T05:44:49Z asarch: And why good books are very expensive? :'-( 2017-11-04T05:45:30Z beach: The star on the door means it's part of the Closette implementation. It says so at the top of page 19. 2017-11-04T05:45:40Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T05:45:43Z beach: "backstage", apparently. 2017-11-04T05:46:02Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:46:58Z beach: The mop icon is explained after it is first used on page 52. 2017-11-04T05:48:23Z asarch: Thank you very much once again 2017-11-04T05:48:36Z asarch: I owe you a couple of beers o/ 2017-11-04T05:48:40Z beach: Books are expensive because publishing companies are in charge. The author gets very little. That's why I use self publishing when I write books. That way, I get to set a reasonable price and I get to keep most of the profit. 2017-11-04T05:49:06Z beach: Sure, you can buy me some beers at ELS in Marbella next year. 2017-11-04T05:49:50Z asarch: ANSI Common Lisp costs $108.67 on Amazon even on black Friday :'-( 2017-11-04T05:49:59Z asarch: That really hurts 2017-11-04T05:50:04Z beach: Wow, that is a lot. 2017-11-04T05:51:04Z asarch: "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp" is $62.81 2017-11-04T05:51:21Z asarch: s/is/costs/ 2017-11-04T05:51:25Z beach: That's more reasonable. It's a thick book. 2017-11-04T05:51:33Z beach: ANSI Common Lisp is not that thick. 2017-11-04T05:51:53Z vsync: I certainly got more than $109 from "ANSI CL" 2017-11-04T05:52:04Z asarch: I never could get "The C++ Programming Language" special edition 2017-11-04T05:52:31Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T05:52:40Z asarch: Only the 3rd edition translated to Spanish in $10 2017-11-04T05:53:55Z asarch: The funny of this is, ANSI Common Lisp cost far far more that any kind of drug 2017-11-04T05:54:29Z asarch: Not even selling a kidney could get that book 2017-11-04T05:55:00Z beach: You don't need it. 2017-11-04T05:55:21Z beach: PCL is available as PDF and it will do fine. 2017-11-04T05:56:35Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-04T05:57:15Z asarch: Yeah, that's the way I got "COMMON LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" 2017-11-04T06:00:21Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T06:03:00Z aeth: Do some universities use these books as textbooks? 2017-11-04T06:03:20Z aeth: Textbooks seem to be double or triple the price of other books because students have no choice. 2017-11-04T06:05:22Z asarch: ANSI C is the cheapest one :-P 2017-11-04T06:06:33Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:08:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:09:14Z asarch: What books have you write beach? 2017-11-04T06:09:37Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:10:59Z beach: Introduction to Computer Science (in 3 languages), Computer architecture (in French), A Common Lisp introduction book (In French). 2017-11-04T06:12:02Z beach: Almost finished with a book on data types (in English). 2017-11-04T06:13:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:13:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:17:39Z takitus|afk is now known as takitus 2017-11-04T06:17:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:18:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:23:47Z asarch: Wow! That's great 2017-11-04T06:24:04Z asarch: I found this place: https://github.com/clojurians-org/lisp-ebook 2017-11-04T06:26:57Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-04T06:27:53Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:28:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:28:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:28:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:30:50Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T06:31:22Z epony joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:32:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:33:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:33:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:34:59Z pjb: Beware there's an intruse1 2017-11-04T06:35:00Z pjb: ! 2017-11-04T06:37:51Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:40:07Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:43:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:43:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T06:57:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-04T06:59:42Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:03:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:08:34Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-04T07:09:14Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:14:45Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:16:59Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T07:17:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:23:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:26:45Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T07:27:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:28:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:29:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:32:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:33:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:33:46Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T07:33:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:35:27Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:37:21Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:37:22Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:37:46Z kushal is now known as Guest39255 2017-11-04T07:38:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:38:19Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:38:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:44:05Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-11-04T07:48:17Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T07:48:55Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:01:14Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:03:11Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:03:38Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-11-04T08:03:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:08:08Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:08:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:12:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:13:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:15:06Z takitus is now known as takitus|afk 2017-11-04T08:17:42Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:18:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:18:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:20:28Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:23:08Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:23:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:28:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:28:15Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:28:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:30:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:33:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:33:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:34:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:38:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:38:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:40:45Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:43:00Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:43:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:48:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:48:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:49:26Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-04T08:53:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:53:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:57:49Z p_l: heh, book writing 2017-11-04T08:57:58Z p_l: I might end up writing one, unfortunately not about CL :< 2017-11-04T08:58:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T08:58:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T08:59:02Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T08:59:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:00:40Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:01:05Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:01:09Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:02:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:02:56Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-04T09:03:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:03:09Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-04T09:03:39Z panji joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:03:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:04:54Z beach: p_l: What will it be about? 2017-11-04T09:06:51Z akr joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:06:57Z akr: hello 2017-11-04T09:07:07Z beach: Hello akr. 2017-11-04T09:07:10Z shka: life, universe and everything? 2017-11-04T09:07:14Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:07:15Z shka: akr: hi! 2017-11-04T09:07:24Z SaganMan: hello peeps 2017-11-04T09:07:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:07:40Z shka: hello sagan 2017-11-04T09:07:57Z akr: is there a way to see something like a trace of a running system? I'd like to see what is currently being executed. I guess I could re-define defun to log each funcall somewhere, but is there a better way? 2017-11-04T09:08:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:08:18Z beach: clhs trace 2017-11-04T09:08:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 2017-11-04T09:08:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:08:54Z p_l: beach: Modern Software Delivery Pipeline, with Continuous Integration, Continuous Deployment, and the infrastructure supporting all that 2017-11-04T09:09:06Z beach: akr: See that link. 2017-11-04T09:09:27Z beach: p_l: Sounds great. If it is in English, I'll probably buy it. 2017-11-04T09:09:46Z p_l: It will be in english, we'll see if the deal comes through 2017-11-04T09:09:52Z p_l: first time I do that kind of thing 2017-11-04T09:10:04Z akr: beach: oh, cool. Is there any way to trace every function, or would that be stupidly large amount of information? 2017-11-04T09:10:43Z shka: that would be large ammount of information for sure 2017-11-04T09:10:46Z beach: akr: Well, you can't trace most standard functions. 2017-11-04T09:11:00Z akr: I just want to trace user-defined functions 2017-11-04T09:11:08Z beach: That should be fine. 2017-11-04T09:11:59Z beach: akr: Your Common Lisp implementation might have an extension that allows you to trace every function with a name in a particular package. 2017-11-04T09:12:18Z akr: I'm running on SBCL, if that helps 2017-11-04T09:12:50Z beach: akr: Otherwise, you have to write a small program to loop over all the symbols in your own package and call trace if the symbols has an associated function definition. 2017-11-04T09:13:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:13:37Z shka: mind, that it is not complicated at all 2017-11-04T09:13:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:15:05Z shka: btw, about calling compile again… 2017-11-04T09:15:19Z shka: i hate to touch this subject, trust me 2017-11-04T09:15:50Z beach: akr: I think you have to write it. 2017-11-04T09:16:07Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T09:16:13Z shka: iterate can loop over symbols in package 2017-11-04T09:16:24Z shka: so this program will be just single line 2017-11-04T09:16:26Z akr: beach: yeah, I don't see anything better than `trace` documented in the SBCL user manual 2017-11-04T09:17:03Z shka: regarding compile 2017-11-04T09:17:20Z shka: let's say i have data structure that works as so called "data frame" 2017-11-04T09:17:23Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:17:33Z shka: essentially set of typed vectors 2017-11-04T09:18:37Z shka: i want to use optimized compiled functions to perform operations on this data structure 2017-11-04T09:19:28Z shka: i can use macros, but they are not equally easy to use as functions 2017-11-04T09:20:11Z shka: so i would rather pass body of function as list, build lambda form and call compile then 2017-11-04T09:20:47Z shka: does that sound reasonable? 2017-11-04T09:21:03Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:21:31Z p_l: it can be done 2017-11-04T09:21:40Z shka: sure, it can 2017-11-04T09:21:49Z p_l: sometimes the only part that was "macro" was the wrapper to avoid evaluation to make nicer interface for dev 2017-11-04T09:21:51Z shka: but is that a good idea… 2017-11-04T09:22:07Z shka: yeah, that's what i am looking for 2017-11-04T09:22:10Z p_l: shka: are you trying to optimize at runtime from known "shape" of the data frame? 2017-11-04T09:22:36Z shka: both shape, names of columns and types of columns 2017-11-04T09:23:13Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:23:39Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:23:40Z p_l: ELS 2015 proceedings, page 71, Quantum Physics Simulations in Common Lisp by Miroslav Urbanek. I haven't re-read the paper to check how much was described, but you could try reaching out to the author for more details 2017-11-04T09:26:28Z shka: p_l: noted 2017-11-04T09:26:36Z shka: thanks 2017-11-04T09:26:39Z p_l: ELS 2016, page 39, "A High-Performance Image Processing DSL for Heterogeneous Architectures" might be of interest for inspiration , but it's a bit further out 2017-11-04T09:27:16Z p_l: shka: the quantum simulation paper is interesting because, IIRC from the talk, after each iteration the program compiled new, more optimized functions for processing the next iteration 2017-11-04T09:28:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:28:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:29:30Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:29:32Z shka: oh, that sound quite awesome 2017-11-04T09:29:45Z shka: amazing hack :-) 2017-11-04T09:30:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:31:20Z p_l: shka: this was with SBCL running on ~1000 cores or so, on supercomputer 2017-11-04T09:32:02Z Shinmera: By the by, in case some people like watching streams, I'm now doing a weekly lisp stream on Sundays: https://events.tymoon.eu/1/ 2017-11-04T09:32:48Z shka: Shinmera: what are you working on? 2017-11-04T09:32:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:33:05Z Shinmera: Currently, geometry clipmaps. A technique for terrain streaming. 2017-11-04T09:33:21Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:34:00Z Shinmera: If things go well I'll be done with that this Sunday or the one after. 2017-11-04T09:34:54Z asarch: If you would have to choose one of them: "ANSI Common Lisp", "Practical Common Lisp", "Common Lisp The Language" and "On Lis", what would you do and why? 2017-11-04T09:35:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:35:29Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T09:36:22Z p_l: asarch: Practical Common Lisp. Least amount of crackers, solid foundational book, covers ANSI 2017-11-04T09:37:02Z asarch: Thank you 2017-11-04T09:37:08Z asarch: Thank you very much p_l :-) 2017-11-04T09:37:22Z GreaseMonkey: i started picking up CL a few days ago looking through that book 2017-11-04T09:37:58Z GreaseMonkey: i actually like CL macros, scheme macros on the other hand i really can't be bothered with 2017-11-04T09:38:12Z shka: also PCL is free online 2017-11-04T09:38:43Z GreaseMonkey: i'm also using the common lisp hyperspec as a general reference 2017-11-04T09:40:17Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:43:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:48:19Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-11-04T09:48:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:48:56Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T09:49:14Z panji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-04T09:50:53Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-04T09:52:53Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-04T09:56:37Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T09:57:51Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-04T09:58:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:02:19Z Zhivago: Why don't you like scheme macros? 2017-11-04T10:04:18Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T10:04:18Z GreaseMonkey: i just prefer the directness of CL's macros. yes, they're a little bit dangerous, but i come from a C background. 2017-11-04T10:05:18Z GreaseMonkey: and at least in lisp, when you put a value in, you don't have to freak out over how brackets can interfere with things. 2017-11-04T10:06:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:07:23Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:10:43Z Ziperino joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:13:12Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T10:15:01Z Ziperino quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T10:17:29Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:17:29Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-11-04T10:17:29Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:18:43Z beach quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-11-04T10:25:55Z beach joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:31:31Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:31:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:33:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T10:36:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T10:47:01Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T10:47:25Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:48:07Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:49:54Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-04T10:50:38Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-04T10:51:17Z guicho: huh hello 2017-11-04T10:51:29Z beach: Hello guicho. 2017-11-04T10:51:59Z guicho: hello beach 2017-11-04T10:52:09Z rocx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T11:00:47Z guicho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T11:01:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T11:03:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T11:17:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:20:01Z alexmlw quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T11:22:38Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-04T11:22:52Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:24:28Z SaganMan: CL macros are not the same as other macros 2017-11-04T11:25:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:32:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:32:41Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:32:47Z SaganMan: clhs contran 2017-11-04T11:32:47Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for contran. 2017-11-04T11:32:58Z SaganMan: clhs comtran 2017-11-04T11:32:58Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for comtran. 2017-11-04T11:33:40Z Josh_2: Maybe you are looking for Choochootrain? 2017-11-04T11:33:48Z SaganMan: lol 2017-11-04T11:34:14Z SaganMan: it's a used defined macro, my bad 2017-11-04T11:34:19Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-04T11:34:21Z Josh_2: (format t "choo choo~%") 2017-11-04T11:34:51Z SaganMan: reminds me of "I choo choo choose you" from simpsons 2017-11-04T11:35:36Z Josh_2: I'm sure that has worked somewhere irl 2017-11-04T11:36:26Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:36:44Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T11:37:44Z SaganMan: only Pablo Neruda works on me :p 2017-11-04T11:42:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:43:12Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-04T11:43:55Z SaganMan: GreaseMonkey: if you're new to cl, check this out https://github.com/google/lisp-koans 2017-11-04T11:53:58Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T11:54:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:04:15Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T12:06:16Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:08:44Z akr: anyone who knows a thing or two about postmodern? I have an issue where my system keeps opening new connections to the postgres database, but I don't know from where 2017-11-04T12:09:06Z akr: I'm tracing pomo:connect and pomo:connect-topleve, but it's not coming from there apparently 2017-11-04T12:09:52Z Shinmera: You sure the trace output isn't just not being shown because standard-output is different in other threads? 2017-11-04T12:10:18Z Shinmera: err, *trace-output* 2017-11-04T12:10:27Z akr: I defined a user function, traced it, an called it — it showed up 2017-11-04T12:10:40Z akr: so, unless different thread can have different trace-output or something, it should be fine 2017-11-04T12:10:48Z Shinmera: That's what I'm literally saying though 2017-11-04T12:10:58Z akr: oh, right — sorry 2017-11-04T12:11:03Z Shinmera: By default the bindings are not the same as in your local slime repl. 2017-11-04T12:11:23Z Shinmera: Check inferior-lisp. 2017-11-04T12:11:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T12:12:46Z akr: hmm, how does that help me? 2017-11-04T12:12:47Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T12:13:23Z Shinmera: stdout is usually what the output streams are bound to in a fresh environment. 2017-11-04T12:13:29Z _death: maybe bordeaux-threads should have code to resolve this issue once and for all? 2017-11-04T12:13:33Z Shinmera: If you're using SBCL you can try (trace pomo:connect :break T) 2017-11-04T12:13:50Z Shinmera: That'll invoke the debugger when the function is hit, which will show up regardless of thread. 2017-11-04T12:14:50Z akr: nice, thanks 2017-11-04T12:14:52Z akr: I'll try that 2017-11-04T12:14:57Z akr: _death: what do you mean? 2017-11-04T12:15:08Z Shinmera: _death: BT has bt:*default-special-bindings*, but it's NIL by default, if I remember correctly. 2017-11-04T12:16:09Z _death: Shinmera: maybe add some slime-specific bindings by default in case slime is used 2017-11-04T12:16:48Z Shinmera: _death: In my own stuff I usually create my own make-thread that supplies `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*) ..) for the bindings. 2017-11-04T12:17:43Z _death: Shinmera: sure.. I know how to deal with it as well :).. but why have everyone deal with it on their own 2017-11-04T12:18:06Z Shinmera: Well, the slime problem is a bit more tricky if you consider multiple connections that may close and open at any time. 2017-11-04T12:18:58Z Shinmera: But yeah, I agree that using the default behaviour of inheriting the stream special variables is probably closer to what one expects to happen than the current behaviour. 2017-11-04T12:20:27Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:21:07Z _death: if it's tricky then that's more reason to do it once, and if it's too tricky, well it doesn't have to be perfect ;) 2017-11-04T12:22:04Z Shinmera: I can think of two solutions but I don't like either of them. 2017-11-04T12:23:43Z _death: do they involve hooks 2017-11-04T12:24:18Z Shinmera: One of them is interrupting all threads and walking the stack to find the lowest bindings. The other is to use gray streams to multiplex / redirect dynamically. 2017-11-04T12:24:57Z Shinmera: Kinda like https://github.com/Shinmera/redirect-stream 2017-11-04T12:25:47Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:26:17Z _death: it looks good.. I doubt performance would be a problem since slime's stream already has terrible performance 2017-11-04T12:26:43Z Shinmera: I wish that wasn't the case so I don't feel particularly enthused about making it even slower. 2017-11-04T12:27:09Z Shinmera: I also don't know what the semantics of this redirection should be. Distribute to all slime connections? Only new ones? When do you change the stream? 2017-11-04T12:28:43Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:28:57Z _death: good questions 2017-11-04T12:29:59Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:32:28Z akr: ugh, why is it that `jump-to-definition` in Emacs does something strange when Slime's connected 2017-11-04T12:32:39Z akr: it tried too look up the definition on the remote host or something 2017-11-04T12:32:57Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T12:32:57Z sabrac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T12:33:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:33:07Z sabrac joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:33:24Z _death: if you're connected to a remote host, the source information comes from that image 2017-11-04T12:33:53Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:34:11Z _death: maybe you could hack something to convert it to tramp syntax :) 2017-11-04T12:34:59Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly slime has a translation thingy for when you're connected remotely 2017-11-04T12:35:06Z Shinmera: Never took the time to figure it out though 2017-11-04T12:35:23Z akr: I wonder why it doesn't manage to load the file into a buffer, then 2017-11-04T12:35:41Z akr: (the file where the symbol is defined) 2017-11-04T12:36:02Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:37:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T12:37:22Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-04T12:43:50Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-04T12:46:42Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:49:28Z Shinmera: It's a thing you need to set up yourself 2017-11-04T12:49:38Z Shinmera: Slime can't possibly know how to translate paths from another system to valid ones on yours 2017-11-04T12:49:48Z _death: activity heatmap for slime https://i.imgur.com/fDQkDxE.png 2017-11-04T12:50:15Z _death: (each column is 4 weeks) 2017-11-04T12:51:39Z _death: waiting for Xach's sly post 2017-11-04T12:53:41Z Autumn joined #lisp 2017-11-04T12:55:03Z _death: Shinmera: tramp syntax would do the right thing, no? 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2017-11-04T13:59:08Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T13:59:18Z Josh_2: Q_Q what is the meaning of life without paste.lisp 2017-11-04T14:04:12Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:06:35Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T14:06:49Z oleo: oO 2017-11-04T14:07:25Z phoe_: the hell 2017-11-04T14:07:42Z phoe_: lisppaste needs a better self-hosted captcha 2017-11-04T14:07:45Z phoe_: and should be good to go then 2017-11-04T14:11:19Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/ 2017-11-04T14:11:25Z oleo: https://gist.github.com/ 2017-11-04T14:12:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:12:51Z _death: instead of a captcha it could have a per-channel key, which is given in the channel's topic and may change from time to time 2017-11-04T14:13:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:14:48Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-04T14:15:40Z oleo2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-04T14:20:09Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:20:11Z Shinmera: http://plaster.tymoon.eu Open source lisp: https://github.com/Shirakumo/plaster 2017-11-04T14:22:53Z Josh_2: Not enough Lambda 2017-11-04T14:24:47Z Shinmera: ? 2017-11-04T14:25:01Z Josh_2: There is a lack of visual lamdas 2017-11-04T14:25:15Z Shinmera: I don't get it. 2017-11-04T14:25:24Z Josh_2: dw 2017-11-04T14:32:45Z cess11: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/662 2017-11-04T14:33:50Z _death: not a very good spammer if there's no way to contact 2017-11-04T14:34:19Z Shinmera: ICQ, ahaha 2017-11-04T14:35:08Z _death: oh, there's a scrollbar.. hmmm 2017-11-04T14:35:54Z _death: Shinmera: you're assuming everyone has javascript enabled :) 2017-11-04T14:36:10Z Shinmera: Plaster could do with a simple captcha (the previous version used to have one) but so far the spam hasn't been bad enough for me to bother. 2017-11-04T14:36:14Z Shinmera: _death: I'm not, though 2017-11-04T14:36:31Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-04T14:37:06Z _death: Shinmera: I mean you use javascript to resize the view 2017-11-04T14:37:57Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T14:38:43Z Shinmera: IIRC CSS makes it hard to fit a textarea to its contents. 2017-11-04T14:38:59Z Shinmera: hence why it's not expanded nicely unless JS is active. 2017-11-04T14:39:04Z _death: I like lisppaste because it renders on the server 2017-11-04T14:39:30Z Shinmera: Well, this gives you a full editor on the client when you type in your paste. 2017-11-04T14:39:50Z Shinmera: Tradeoffs :shrug: 2017-11-04T14:39:50Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾ 2017-11-04T14:40:05Z _death: is there a point to a full-fledged editor though? when I want to paste something I already have it in my editor 2017-11-04T14:40:38Z Shinmera: Sometimes I type things into the paste directly. 2017-11-04T14:40:53Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:42:05Z Shinmera: Having a rendered fallback for people without JS would be nice to have. 2017-11-04T14:42:20Z _death: https too :) 2017-11-04T14:42:37Z Shinmera: It has https though? 2017-11-04T14:43:27Z _death: right, I noticed that.. but for some reason I reverted to my initial impression with the first link you gave :( 2017-11-04T14:43:46Z Shinmera: Arguably I should redirect to https, but eh. 2017-11-04T14:44:01Z _death: I just have STS 2017-11-04T14:44:38Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T14:44:38Z _death: https://www.nginx.com/blog/http-strict-transport-security-hsts-and-nginx/ 2017-11-04T14:44:54Z Shinmera: I'll have a look, thanks 2017-11-04T14:46:47Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T14:48:01Z wiselord joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:48:05Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-04T14:48:06Z LiamH1 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:49:51Z edgar-rft: Info from Erik Huelsmann on #common-lisp.net - what happened with lisppaste can be found under "RFC Future of Lisppaste" here: 2017-11-04T14:50:05Z M-ehuelsmann joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:50:38Z LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 2017-11-04T14:51:27Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-04T14:52:15Z M-ehuelsmann: Josh_2: hi. regarding your question "Can't they make it so that we have to log in?" 2017-11-04T14:52:28Z M-ehuelsmann: josh_2: please be my guest and submit the code to do so. 2017-11-04T14:53:33Z M-ehuelsmann: Josh_2: help was requested almost 2 months ago, with no reactions so far. 2017-11-04T14:53:34Z M-ehuelsmann: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/clo-devel/2017-September/001171.html 2017-11-04T14:54:18Z Shinmera: _death: if I could log into cloudflare to flush the cache, you would now find that it automatically expands the paste view to fit on non-JS too. 2017-11-04T14:54:27Z M-ehuelsmann: only people concluding that read-only mode would be the only solution. 2017-11-04T14:54:28Z Shinmera: the log in page won't fukken load 2017-11-04T14:54:34Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-04T14:55:11Z Shinmera: oh right I got JS disabled still 2017-11-04T14:55:23Z Shinmera: how silly of me to think anything works still without it 2017-11-04T14:56:31Z Shinmera: Alright, works fine now. 2017-11-04T14:58:02Z M-ehuelsmann: anybody who wants to talk about lisppaste future, I'll be in #common-lisp.net or reachable through clo-devel@common-lisp.net 2017-11-04T14:58:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:07:47Z frgo joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:09:25Z _death: Shinmera: looks fine now, thanks 2017-11-04T15:10:04Z Shinmera: Thanks for the feedback! 2017-11-04T15:11:46Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T15:11:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:15:17Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:15:30Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:16:32Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T15:20:52Z pragmata joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:22:04Z pragmata quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-04T15:23:57Z toy joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:24:04Z _death: M-ehuelsmann: "What is the first word in the channel's topic?" 2017-11-04T15:24:49Z M-ehuelsmann: _death: I'm not here to debate. 2017-11-04T15:25:16Z _death: ok 2017-11-04T15:26:53Z M-ehuelsmann: but a quick explanation: #common-lisp.net is about common-lisp.net (the website) 2017-11-04T15:27:08Z M-ehuelsmann: and the maintenance of the community tools. 2017-11-04T15:28:50Z _death: M-ehuelsmann: in case it wasn't clear, it was meant as a (default?) captcha question.. anyway, bbl 2017-11-04T15:29:34Z M-ehuelsmann: ok. I'm sorry, no that wasn't clear. I thought you were going to debate #lisp vs #common-lisp.net or something. 2017-11-04T15:30:33Z M-ehuelsmann: death, Josh_2: actually gitlab.common-lisp.net can be set up as an OAuth2 provider.__death ,, 2017-11-04T15:31:29Z M-ehuelsmann: so, yes, we can make it so that paste.lisp.org authenticates against that. 2017-11-04T15:31:35Z M-ehuelsmann: but we would need contributors to implement it. 2017-11-04T15:31:44Z _death: a login system wouldn't make for a very good solution, as many newcomers come up with drive-by questions here 2017-11-04T15:34:01Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-04T15:37:27Z M-ehuelsmann: _death: agreed. 2017-11-04T15:37:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:38:38Z pragmata joined #lisp 2017-11-04T15:38:55Z _death: since lisppaste is an irc bot, it could use this fact to its favor.. a simple channel->key mapping could work, as spammers are unlikely to go through the effort to obtain the keys.. bbl now for real :) 2017-11-04T15:39:05Z shifty quit 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joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:03:41Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T17:04:17Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:06:44Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:07:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T17:12:04Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-04T17:13:07Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:13:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:14:35Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T17:16:39Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:29:40Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:29:59Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:42:09Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:44:47Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:46:51Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T17:49:51Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-04T17:54:37Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T17:58:20Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-04T17:59:12Z dmiles: So in my param list parser I have: (item list &optional opt1 &rest rst &key (test (function eql) testp) (test-not () notp)) 2017-11-04T17:59:32Z dmiles: I am parsing my keys and what is left over gets sent to rst but what i am wondering is if i should also delay parsing of opt1 as well 2017-11-04T18:00:01Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T18:00:45Z Bike: optional and rest together is kind of confusing. 2017-11-04T18:01:36Z dmiles: yeah 2017-11-04T18:02:18Z dmiles: though delete my &rest and then i suppose the question makes sense 2017-11-04T18:03:09Z dmiles: i just not thought of delaying &optional before 2017-11-04T18:04:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:04:43Z dmiles: i worked on a lisp impl for work we didnt have &key so everyone emulated them using &rest when they needed it 2017-11-04T18:05:16Z dmiles: and i always grabed &optionals first 2017-11-04T18:06:12Z dmiles: (users/programmers knew to plug up their optional holes first) 2017-11-04T18:08:13Z dmiles: (so that is why i think of people using &optional and &rest together) 2017-11-04T18:09:27Z dmiles: but now i am implementing a common lisp .. oops i actually planned on compiling work code to .. but firstly i should obey common lisp (and have that code get fixed if it needs to be used) 2017-11-04T18:10:16Z dmiles: but at least that code wont ever use &key if it is doing that confussing weirdness 2017-11-04T18:10:52Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:11:51Z pjb: dmiles: not left over! Everything! &rest and &key take the same arguments. 2017-11-04T18:11:53Z dmiles: so should i do requireds, keys, optionals, rest or requireds, optionals, keys, rest 2017-11-04T18:12:02Z pjb: &key is a subparse of &rest if you will. 2017-11-04T18:12:36Z pjb: mandatory, optional, rest 2017-11-04T18:12:42Z dmiles: oh! still give them to &rest? 2017-11-04T18:12:48Z pjb: then if you have key you take them from rest. 2017-11-04T18:13:21Z dmiles: ok so i do hide them from rest 2017-11-04T18:13:37Z pjb: (defun foo (m &optional o &rest r &key k) (list m o r k)) #| --> foo |# (foo 1 2 :k 3 :allow-other-keys t :foo 42) #| --> (1 2 (:k 3 :allow-other-keys t :foo 42) 3) |# 2017-11-04T18:14:10Z pjb: Note in particular, that once you have &key, this implies that (evenp (length rest)) 2017-11-04T18:14:27Z pjb: and that every even numbered rest argument is a symbol. 2017-11-04T18:17:07Z dmiles: so ... (foo 1 2 :k 3 :allow-other-keys t :foo 42) my rest would bge.. ? 2017-11-04T18:17:23Z dmiles: () ? 2017-11-04T18:17:34Z SaganMan quit (Quit: laters) 2017-11-04T18:17:49Z pjb: it is (:k 3 :allow-other-keys t :foo 42) as show above. 2017-11-04T18:18:17Z dmiles: ok.. same with &body ? 2017-11-04T18:18:22Z pjb: same. 2017-11-04T18:18:58Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-04T18:20:18Z dmiles: i belive what your saing is correct but doesnt that make stuff like (defmacro foo (&body b &key use-gentemp) ... ) harder? 2017-11-04T18:20:23Z Trystam joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:22:10Z dmiles: i guess actually that would be done like (defmacro foo (&body b &key use-gentemp) ... ) 2017-11-04T18:22:12Z dmiles: oops 2017-11-04T18:22:22Z dmiles: i guess actually that would be done like (defmacro foo ( bodus &key use-gentemp) ... ) 2017-11-04T18:22:25Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T18:22:47Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2017-11-04T18:23:02Z pjb: In the case of macros, you can use multiple level lambda lists. (defmacro moo ((&body body) &key use-gentemp) …) (moo ((print 1) (print 2)) :use-gemtemp t) 2017-11-04T18:23:22Z pjb: of course, in general we keep &body at the end of the toplevel, and wrap the options in parentheses. 2017-11-04T18:23:33Z pjb: (defmacro moo ((&key use-gentemp) &body body) …) 2017-11-04T18:23:45Z pjb: (moo (:use-gentemp t) (print 1) (print 2)) 2017-11-04T18:24:07Z pjb: But you could use (&body body1) (&body body2) if you have several bodies. 2017-11-04T18:24:07Z dmiles has a ahah moment or two 2017-11-04T18:24:16Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:25:11Z sjl: dmiles: also remember you can give keyargs multiple times, and the leftmost one wins, but they're all included in the rest list http://paste.stevelosh.com/59fe04ce08977900084430d3 2017-11-04T18:25:27Z dmiles need sa list of hairy arglists :P 2017-11-04T18:25:53Z sjl: and don't forget &aux :) 2017-11-04T18:26:04Z pjb: https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-sexp/lambda-list-syntax.txt 2017-11-04T18:26:05Z dmiles: aux i got covered i think 2017-11-04T18:26:32Z pjb: lambda-list parser: https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-sexp/source-form.lisp#L816 2017-11-04T18:28:57Z sjl: non-GPL lambda-list parser: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/master/macros.lisp#L90 2017-11-04T18:28:59Z pjb: you can use the syntax to generate random lambda lists. 2017-11-04T18:29:38Z pjb: But you also want invalid lambda-lists and check your error detection. 2017-11-04T18:30:21Z dmiles: aux is allowed anwaywhere i was thinking 2017-11-04T18:31:12Z sjl: I'm not sure that's correct 2017-11-04T18:31:14Z dmiles: but not allowed anywhere? 2017-11-04T18:31:20Z sjl: clhs 3.4.1.5 2017-11-04T18:31:21Z specbot: Specifiers for &aux variables: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dae.htm 2017-11-04T18:31:29Z sjl: If the lambda list keyword &aux is present, all specifiers after it are auxiliary variable specifiers. 2017-11-04T18:31:35Z sjl: "all specifiers after it" 2017-11-04T18:32:01Z sjl: sbcl definitely complains: (defun foo (&aux a &optional r)) 2017-11-04T18:32:04Z dmiles: oh right.. the usecase i was thinking they might have preceded soemthing to get some variable ready 2017-11-04T18:32:29Z sjl: like to make an optional's default value depend on an aux's value? yeah I don't think you can do that 2017-11-04T18:32:49Z dmiles: right .. thnks for guessing what i meant :P 2017-11-04T18:33:12Z dmiles: (so it might be used in more than one &optional ) 2017-11-04T18:33:37Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:33:44Z sjl: &aux ... is basically just "im too lazy to type (let* ((...)))" 2017-11-04T18:34:01Z dmiles: i have used otional that way many times :O 2017-11-04T18:34:33Z dmiles: "im too lazy to type (let ((...)))" 2017-11-04T18:34:38Z sjl: well optional actually affects the public API of the function 2017-11-04T18:34:43Z sjl: so it's probably bad to use it for that 2017-11-04T18:34:49Z jackdaniel: it saves also nesting 2017-11-04T18:34:52Z sjl: &aux is designed for that 2017-11-04T18:35:22Z sjl: yeah it saves 1 level of nesting 2017-11-04T18:35:55Z Shinmera: The only time I've used aux was within a macro I designed where &aux means more than just a backwards-compatibility. 2017-11-04T18:36:03Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:37:22Z sjl: yeah I almost never use it in practice 2017-11-04T18:37:25Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/for/blob/master/documentation.lisp#L52 2017-11-04T18:37:42Z Shinmera: You may or may not deem this totally awful, and I'll agree with you no matter which way you think. 2017-11-04T18:38:05Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-04T18:39:23Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:39:36Z dmiles: i dont think i have ever been able to critique a style (kettle black) 2017-11-04T18:42:05Z sjl: Shinmera: you're doing that so you can reuse an existing lambda-list parser to parse something that isn't quite a normal lambda list? 2017-11-04T18:42:18Z dmiles: pjb's https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-sexp/lambda-list-syntax.txt whoed me a couple other errors 2017-11-04T18:42:29Z sjl: instead of e.g. using &gen ... to denote gensymed vars 2017-11-04T18:42:37Z Shinmera: sjl: Yes. The macro needs to know about the aux variables to do the proper rewriting of the rest of the arguments, which is why it can't by an inner macro. 2017-11-04T18:43:14Z Shinmera: *can't be 2017-11-04T18:45:05Z sjl: I'll go with "awful, but understandable to avoid writing another Yet Another Parser" 2017-11-04T18:46:12Z Shinmera: Well, I already wrote a lambda-list parser. I just didn't make it extensible. 2017-11-04T18:46:28Z sjl: right 2017-11-04T18:46:37Z sjl: and you're using it to parse something that isn't an actual lambda list 2017-11-04T18:46:54Z Shinmera: Well it is. It just has different semantics than usual :) 2017-11-04T18:47:02Z sjl: or rather, you've defined the thing such that it IS a lambda list 2017-11-04T18:47:04Z sjl: yeah 2017-11-04T18:48:08Z Shinmera: At the time I came up with it I was quite happy since the meaning of "auxiliary" fits well enough in the context, and makes them actually useful beyond being an old-fashioned let. 2017-11-04T18:48:46Z Shinmera: So far I don't think anyone's written their own operators for FOR, so I don't know if anyone else thinks its a good idea in practise. 2017-11-04T18:50:07Z stylewarning: Instead of solving wacky &aux semantics how about me make Lisp more usable by writing something like a gRPC library 2017-11-04T18:50:30Z stylewarning: Interacting With The Real World (TM) 2017-11-04T18:50:34Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:50:58Z dmiles: naw everyone needs to team up and help me write my lisp impl i9stead 2017-11-04T18:51:12Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T18:51:42Z dmiles: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/arglists.pl#L90-L188 2017-11-04T18:51:50Z dmiles: (that one) 2017-11-04T18:52:37Z drmeister: How does one load quicklisp quickly after installation? I've been using (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") - as described on the quicklisp web page. Is there a FASL? Or should I just compile my own? 2017-11-04T18:52:41Z Shinmera: stylewarning: If you want interacting with the real world, please write my WASAPI backend, tia 2017-11-04T18:52:48Z Shinmera: drmeister: That's it. 2017-11-04T18:53:09Z Shinmera: Quicklisp doesn't produce a fasl for its setup 2017-11-04T18:54:20Z visof quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-04T18:54:29Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:54:29Z visof quit (Changing host) 2017-11-04T18:54:29Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:55:23Z visof quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-04T18:55:39Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:55:39Z visof quit (Changing host) 2017-11-04T18:55:39Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:56:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-04T18:57:12Z sjl: stylewarning: which of the three protocol buffer libraries should it build on? :\ 2017-11-04T18:58:53Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-04T18:59:55Z sjl: > although it can be used with other data formats such as JSON 2017-11-04T19:00:03Z sjl: ah good we get to pick a json parser too 2017-11-04T19:02:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-04T19:04:44Z dmiles: though i've spent so far a week, i am guessing i'll have a full impl by the end of the year 2017-11-04T19:05:25Z dmiles: working 16 hours a day 6 days a week 2017-11-04T19:07:12Z pyx joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:07:39Z takitus|afk is now known as takitus 2017-11-04T19:08:07Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:08:10Z dmiles: is &body the only lambda list argumetn that uses parens to describe the matching process? 2017-11-04T19:08:40Z dmiles: &bold 2017-11-04T19:09:01Z dmiles dont know what happened to colorize that irc message 2017-11-04T19:10:19Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:10:53Z dmiles: well i must be refering toa destructuring-lambda-list 2017-11-04T19:11:44Z dmiles: macro-lambda-lists are destructuring-lambda-list though right? 2017-11-04T19:13:50Z dmiles: i was sorta hoping to do is make call trampolines for macros (that is what was done in CYC) where the whole argumehnt list is passed into the site and the site does what it will ... i guess I'll use that same approach 2017-11-04T19:14:15Z dmiles: but for function calls I still have to make call sites with arity 2017-11-04T19:14:16Z sjl: clhs 3.4.4 2017-11-04T19:14:17Z specbot: Macro Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm 2017-11-04T19:15:01Z manamex joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:15:39Z dmiles: somehow i suckered myself to only consulkting the clhs for ordionary lamda lists 2017-11-04T19:15:54Z dmiles: i had* 2017-11-04T19:21:14Z M-ehuelsmann left #lisp 2017-11-04T19:23:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:23:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-04T19:23:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:24:50Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T19:26:17Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:26:48Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:27:29Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-11-04T19:32:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-04T19:32:36Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T19:33:48Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T19:34:15Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:35:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-04T19:38:05Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Like (execute machine ‘((op1) (op2))) 2017-11-04T20:42:07Z stylewarning: Walk through the instruction list and execute one by one? 2017-11-04T20:42:47Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-11-04T20:43:11Z rocx: that was also a thing: a singular function (execute-op my-machine '(op arg)), which (execute-ops), plural, would be a loop around that. 2017-11-04T20:43:18Z rocx: might give that a try first then get back about it. 2017-11-04T20:43:56Z rocx: thanks. 2017-11-04T20:44:12Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-04T20:44:37Z adrien91 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T20:45:01Z adrien91 left #lisp 2017-11-04T20:54:59Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-04T20:58:14Z stylewarning: rocx: I’ll be happy to help then :) 2017-11-04T21:02:11Z devon joined #lisp 2017-11-04T21:03:35Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T21:05:36Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T21:10:39Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-04T21:11:15Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T21:13:30Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-04T21:15:34Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-04T21:17:27Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T21:23:27Z k-stz` joined #lisp 2017-11-04T21:25:52Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-04T21:26:46Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-04T21:27:12Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-04T21:30:46Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-11-04T21:31:16Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-04T21:31:43Z sjl: rocx: I did literally the thing you are asking about 2017-11-04T21:31:44Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-04T21:31:52Z sjl: writing a VM, wanting a macro to access the slots 2017-11-04T21:31:54Z sjl: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/12/chip8-cpu/#removing-tedium 2017-11-04T21:32:29Z stylewarning: He wants a macro not to access slots, but to specify instructions inline 2017-11-04T21:33:38Z sjl: now that I'm rereading it, i'm not sure exactly which they want 2017-11-04T21:35:35Z stylewarning: Can we ever know anything~ 2017-11-04T21:36:01Z whoman: knowledge of something and that something are by definition out of sync 2017-11-04T21:36:22Z whoman: or unable to meet. like fire and gas 2017-11-04T21:36:25Z sjl: what about the primality of 2? 2017-11-04T21:36:41Z stylewarning: Only in time-varying dynamical systems without instantaneity~ 2017-11-04T21:37:22Z stylewarning: sjl what have you been working on as of late 2017-11-04T21:37:56Z sjl: at the moment, trying to log into my bank's website and realizing they have apparently hellbanned my VPN 2017-11-04T21:37:58Z ryan_vw_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-04T21:38:23Z sjl: lisp wise, I did a small clicker game on stream the other day https://github.com/sjl/necro 2017-11-04T21:38:48Z sjl: yesterday I submitted https://sjl.bitbucket.io/chancery/ to quicklisp, finally, after setting down and forcing myself to write docs for it 2017-11-04T21:39:45Z sjl: I'll probably write some twitter bots in CL for procjam, now that I've fixed the bitrot in my bot repo 2017-11-04T21:41:13Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2017-11-04T21:48:47Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T21:49:05Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T21:51:24Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:04:37Z pyx quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-04T22:06:01Z dotcra quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-11-04T22:06:42Z Murii quit (Quit: Byee.) 2017-11-04T22:06:58Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:07:24Z stnutt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T22:08:39Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:12:39Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T22:24:27Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T22:28:04Z tomaw_ joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:29:18Z tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 2017-11-04T22:32:47Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:35:49Z whoman: sjl, lisp for steam ? 2017-11-04T22:36:01Z sjl: whoman: stream 2017-11-04T22:36:05Z sjl: as in twitch streaming 2017-11-04T22:36:12Z sjl: I stream coding or gameplay every tuesday 2017-11-04T22:36:17Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-04T22:36:38Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:36:48Z emaczen: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (loop do ...))) -- the only way the loop exits is via conditions. Do I need to do any thread cleanup? 2017-11-04T22:37:16Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:40:14Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:41:51Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:42:03Z whoman: sjl, oops! my brain totally thought that was Steam the whole time. 2017-11-04T22:42:22Z whoman: oh, i've even typed it as such. i could probably use a couple minutes of meditation =) 2017-11-04T22:42:31Z whoman: mind running off without me 2017-11-04T22:42:45Z whoman: sjl, like Baggers does ? 2017-11-04T22:42:57Z sjl: yeah, same idea 2017-11-04T22:43:20Z whoman: i was thinking of getting into the modern times myself. pondered being a rap star but i am too shy 2017-11-04T22:44:52Z emaczen: is there a difference in performance/memory of passing an argument via keyword parameter? 2017-11-04T22:45:40Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-11-04T22:48:21Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-04T22:48:46Z whoman: no 2017-11-04T22:49:02Z whoman: especially not after compile 2017-11-04T22:51:02Z _death: emaczen: versus optional/required? definitely 2017-11-04T22:51:08Z shrdlu68: Possibly, but a negligible one for only a few keywords. 2017-11-04T22:52:18Z emaczen: I have an array and I only want to send part of it to the function, and am doing it via (make-array length :displaced-to arr :displaced-index-offset idx) 2017-11-04T22:52:48Z emaczen: the value of (make-array ...) is being passed as a keyword argument to the function 2017-11-04T22:53:16Z shrdlu68 just realized he could use backquote as a shorthand to #'list 2017-11-04T22:53:18Z Bike: access to a displaced array may be slower 2017-11-04T22:53:19Z whoman: i think you may want to look into order of evaluation, not keyword args 2017-11-04T22:53:34Z emaczen: this is the only area if my program that seems problematic to me, I'm getting lag after about 10 to 20 minutes of it running? 2017-11-04T22:53:46Z whoman: o_o .... 2017-11-04T22:53:50Z whoman: paste code ? 2017-11-04T22:53:57Z Bike: well, make-array does allocate, even if it's a displaced array 2017-11-04T22:54:00Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T22:54:16Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T22:54:17Z emaczen: Bike: the solution is to use offsets then? 2017-11-04T22:54:27Z Bike: i don't know what your particular problem is 2017-11-04T22:54:44Z emaczen: Bike: probably garbage collection 2017-11-04T22:54:57Z shrdlu68: emaczen: :start and :end args are common. 2017-11-04T22:55:59Z emaczen: I'll try offsets, and post back later I have to go... 2017-11-04T22:56:24Z Bike: offsets is basically :start :end, so 2017-11-04T22:56:54Z emaczen: I think Shinmera pointed out to me a few days ago that it was garbage collection and my program was only running for like a minute or two 2017-11-04T22:57:05Z emaczen: now it is good for like 20 minutes -- hard to debug and find that out 2017-11-04T22:57:13Z emaczen: I'll bbl 2017-11-04T22:58:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-04T23:02:06Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T23:02:19Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-04T23:02:20Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T23:05:03Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-04T23:06:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-04T23:06:08Z fikka: hi 2017-11-04T23:07:01Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-04T23:07:14Z mfiano: How can I write a predicate to test if a variable is special or not? 2017-11-04T23:07:20Z whoman: i think maybe i can take an assumption. perhaps what you expect to get released or thrown out, is actually not considered garbage. 2017-11-04T23:07:26Z Bike: unfortunately, you cannot mfiano 2017-11-04T23:07:33Z Bike: not standardly anyway 2017-11-04T23:07:48Z whoman: just check if the symbol starts with ... 2017-11-04T23:07:48Z k-stz` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T23:07:50Z Bike: what are you trying to do? 2017-11-04T23:07:53Z mfiano: Bike: I see...yeah this did not work: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/28328187/in-common-lisp-how-to-test-if-variable-is-special 2017-11-04T23:08:13Z Shinmera: mfiano: https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/symbols.lisp#L198 2017-11-04T23:08:27Z mfiano: Bike: I have a variable I am declaring special in a few places of my codebase and I want to ensure that is indeed the case, to prove to another developer that is skeptical 2017-11-04T23:08:37Z Bike: ...what? 2017-11-04T23:08:38Z Shinmera: Hunh, just noticed I never added ecl or abcl. 2017-11-04T23:09:17Z Bike: your other developer doesn't know the language definition? 2017-11-04T23:09:21Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-04T23:09:37Z Bike: the thing in this answer won't work if the variable is only locally special 2017-11-04T23:09:48Z Bike: kind of clever, though 2017-11-04T23:10:01Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-04T23:10:06Z mfiano: Bike: He does, but the only thing he can quote is from cltl2 2017-11-04T23:10:14Z Bike: cltl2 is not normative 2017-11-04T23:10:21Z Bike: what exactly is he skeptical of 2017-11-04T23:10:23Z mfiano: indeed, and that it is...locally 2017-11-04T23:10:33Z Bike: if you declare a variable special it's special 2017-11-04T23:10:42Z Bike: in that scope 2017-11-04T23:10:42Z mfiano: But his argument is: 2017-11-04T23:10:55Z mfiano: "A special, as I found out, cannot be "non-inifinite extent"." 2017-11-04T23:11:00Z _death: (defun specialp (var) (zerop (eval `(let ((,var 1)) (flet ((blah () ,var)) (let ((,var 0)) (declare (ignorable ,var)) (blah))))))) ;) 2017-11-04T23:11:06Z Bike: what 2017-11-04T23:11:13Z mfiano: "meaning, as soon as your proclaim it, it becomes available everywhere." 2017-11-04T23:11:25Z Bike: i thought you were locally declaring, not proclaiming 2017-11-04T23:11:35Z mfiano: That's what I told him 2017-11-04T23:12:28Z _death: hmm, now I see that SO page 2017-11-04T23:12:36Z pierpa: If he doesn't know how to recognize a special variable, why he wants to know if the var is special? 2017-11-04T23:13:04Z Bike: declaring special is just a lexical property 2017-11-04T23:13:08Z pierpa: what difference could make to him this knowledge? 2017-11-04T23:13:39Z Bike: (let ((x 4)) (declare (special x)) (let ((x 7)) (values x (symbol-value 'x)))) => 7, 4 as it has different values lexically and in its symbol binding 2017-11-04T23:13:56Z Bike: or (let ((x 4)) (declare (special x)) (let ((x 7)) (values x (locally (declare (special x)) x)))) if you want 2017-11-04T23:15:05Z mfiano: Ok thanks for the clarification 2017-11-04T23:17:22Z mfiano: Bike: Why does this print out that it is not special? https://gist.github.com/mfiano/bd1c41a93acf0548b0439b8297647bc9 2017-11-04T23:18:01Z Bike: because you pass variable-information no environment 2017-11-04T23:18:09Z Bike: so it uses the global environment, in which it is not special 2017-11-04T23:18:12Z mfiano: aha 2017-11-04T23:18:41Z mfiano: I'm not too familiar with environments. I got some reading to do to fix that 2017-11-04T23:19:42Z Bike: you could do (macrolet ((f (var &environment env) `',(eq (sb-cltl2:variable-information var env) :special))) (f ',var)) or something 2017-11-04T23:19:45Z Bike: only mostly insane 2017-11-04T23:20:34Z whoman: =/ 2017-11-04T23:21:09Z Bike: sorry, i meant (f ,var) 2017-11-04T23:21:59Z Bike: point is, it's definitely not something you can figure out at runtime, because "is a variable special" is a question that only makes sense to the compiler 2017-11-04T23:22:14Z Bike: or evaluator, or whatever 2017-11-04T23:22:31Z mfiano: Right, okay thanks. 2017-11-04T23:25:19Z earl-ducaine: Hey Lispites! Does anyone have knowlege about blackboard systems? Espectially: http://gbbopen.org/index.html 2017-11-04T23:25:33Z earl-ducaine: The projects looks increadibly powerful mature, and in many ways ahead of its time (talking Lisp so we can't be suprised about that.) 2017-11-04T23:26:04Z earl-ducaine: But, I have no idea.... what it does. Or how it's used (some type of AI?) or any way that it could be adapted to modern CL projects. 2017-11-04T23:26:19Z earl-ducaine: I've read up about blackboard systems and the examples of real world applications that GBBOpen runs. 2017-11-04T23:26:21Z earl-ducaine: But nothing seems to click with admittatled dim brain. 2017-11-04T23:34:56Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-04T23:42:30Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-04T23:44:27Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-11-04T23:44:43Z shrdlu68: earl-ducaine: Interesting, never heard of them. 2017-11-04T23:47:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-04T23:48:59Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-04T23:49:03Z shrdlu68: It essentially seems to be a model for solving complex problems in a probabilistic, divide-and-conquer manner. 2017-11-04T23:49:23Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-11-04T23:53:06Z neoncontrails quit 2017-11-04T23:54:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:00:01Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T00:04:00Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:05:53Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T00:06:55Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T00:07:52Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:11:12Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:11:30Z lemoinem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T00:12:24Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:15:58Z earl-ducaine: More than I managed to glean. Another thing that I found interesting was that it uses MOP extensively (apperently) http://gbbopen.org/hypertutorial/ 2017-11-05T00:16:42Z earl-ducaine: There seem to be a dearth of large production open source projects that extensively make use of MOP. 2017-11-05T00:16:53Z earl-ducaine: (At least I haven't seen them) 2017-11-05T00:18:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T00:20:06Z earl-ducaine: shrdlu68: My initial thought was that this looks like something you could install in an AWS vpc and connect it to 1000s of Raspberry PIs out in the field to it and done something amazing! What that 'thing' would be I have no idea! 2017-11-05T00:21:27Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:22:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T00:23:38Z shrdlu68: earl-ducaine: Me neither. A system that would learn the fundamental rules of Conway's game of life, perhaps? 2017-11-05T00:24:23Z shrdlu68: But 1000s of PIs sounds like too much power for such a problem. 2017-11-05T00:27:05Z shrdlu68: s/learn/derive 2017-11-05T00:28:02Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:32:17Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T00:32:40Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:32:53Z shrdlu68: I'm thinking of a macro chars such that (chars A B C D) => (#\A #\B #\C #\D) 2017-11-05T00:33:18Z shrdlu68: How do I do this? Never mind whether it's useful or not, now I'm just curious. 2017-11-05T00:33:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T00:36:45Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-05T00:38:07Z earl-ducaine: The core would be: (mapcar (lambda (c) (elt (symbol-name c) 0)) '(A B C)) 2017-11-05T00:40:59Z earl-ducaine: shrdlu68: but you'll have to do something like '(|a| B C) to get lowercase 2017-11-05T00:41:49Z shrdlu68: earl-ducaine: Is there a way to do it without resorting to that, for lower-case? 2017-11-05T00:41:56Z shrdlu68: And would it work for all characters? 2017-11-05T00:43:00Z earl-ducaine: shrdlu68: Not under ordinary lisp. (eq 'a 'A) 2017-11-05T00:45:22Z earl-ducaine: shrdlu68: Allegro CL *does* have a non-ansi complient 'modern mode' https://franz.com/support/documentation/8.2/doc/case.htm 2017-11-05T00:47:08Z pierpa: clhs character 2017-11-05T00:47:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_ch.htm 2017-11-05T00:47:11Z lemoinem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T00:47:40Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:48:13Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T00:48:39Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:49:46Z earl-ducaine: ^ is definetely superior to: symbol --> string --> char ,i.e. symbol-name elt] 2017-11-05T00:49:53Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:50:15Z shrdlu68: But still has the case limitation. 2017-11-05T00:50:21Z earl-ducaine: correct 2017-11-05T00:51:09Z Zhivago: You could always write a reader macro. :) 2017-11-05T00:51:18Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-11-05T00:51:49Z shrdlu68: Zhivago: Yes, but I don't see how it could be invokes like (chars A B C D) 2017-11-05T00:52:18Z earl-ducaine: Actually, that's what I was wondering.... But, I couldn't figure out whether that was within the capability of the read-table 2017-11-05T00:52:45Z earl-ducaine: i.e. does allegro do its magic using read-teable or special reader code? 2017-11-05T00:53:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T00:54:29Z earl-ducaine: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/23_aba.htm seems to mean: yes, you can! 2017-11-05T00:56:04Z earl-ducaine: shrdlu68: (/= readtable-macro ordinary-lisp-macro) 2017-11-05T00:57:15Z shrdlu68: I'm after something that can make '(#\A #\B #\C #\D) more concise 2017-11-05T00:57:31Z Xach: (coerce "ABCD" 'list) is one way. 2017-11-05T00:57:42Z shrdlu68: (coerce "ABCD" 'list) is...messy. 2017-11-05T00:58:26Z Xach: (x "ABCD") with (defun x (s) (coerce s 'list)) 2017-11-05T00:58:30Z Xach: so many options 2017-11-05T00:58:42Z sabrac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T00:59:20Z shrdlu68: (x ABCD) would be even better... 2017-11-05T01:00:06Z Xach: there is, as they say, no accounting for taste 2017-11-05T01:01:32Z earl-ducaine: haha 2017-11-05T01:01:55Z earl-ducaine: Actually I find: there must be a way to do x 2017-11-05T01:02:07Z earl-ducaine: is the best way to learn a language (for me) 2017-11-05T01:06:36Z shrdlu68: I'm being dense, a reader macro would the perfect solution. 2017-11-05T01:08:15Z shrdlu68: I don't know why I automatically thought about the other macros. 2017-11-05T01:08:38Z Zhivago: Probably russian propaganda. 2017-11-05T01:10:36Z shrdlu68: haha, with that kind of power they're probably influencing me in far more insidious ways. 2017-11-05T01:14:05Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T01:14:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T01:14:38Z pierpa: coerce is the perfect answer to the question. Why is it messy? 2017-11-05T01:15:03Z shrdlu68: The goal is conciseness. 2017-11-05T01:15:45Z ryanwatk` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T01:15:46Z pierpa: then put it in a function, as Xach already showed 2017-11-05T01:17:03Z shrdlu68: With a reader macro I could do something like #ZABCD, which is more concise than (x "ABCD") 2017-11-05T01:17:15Z pierpa: :) 2017-11-05T01:17:51Z Zhivago: Until you include the cost of the reader macro. :) 2017-11-05T01:18:50Z pierpa: and the hours of debugging when another module use the same character macro for another purpose and he forgets to switch properly the read'tables :) 2017-11-05T01:19:25Z cgay: Death to reader macros. 2017-11-05T01:22:02Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-05T01:30:21Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T01:30:25Z ClintMoore[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T01:31:13Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T01:33:28Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-05T01:34:17Z lagagain joined #lisp 2017-11-05T01:38:43Z Xach: dylan is a reader macro 2017-11-05T01:39:14Z _akem is now known as akem 2017-11-05T01:44:54Z ClintMoore[m] is now known as clintm 2017-11-05T01:45:16Z clintm quit (Changing host) 2017-11-05T01:45:16Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-11-05T01:45:16Z clintm quit (Changing host) 2017-11-05T01:45:16Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-11-05T01:45:26Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T01:54:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T01:55:28Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-05T02:02:54Z msingle joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:04:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T02:05:25Z cgay: ouch 2017-11-05T02:07:18Z AndroUser2 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:07:27Z msingle quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T02:08:01Z Guest22796 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:09:00Z cgay: So at $work we have someone replacing the "compose" function with the ∘ character. 2017-11-05T02:12:29Z pierpa: This will make all the programs run at least twice as fast! 2017-11-05T02:13:39Z cgay: But it will increase typing by quite a lot. 2017-11-05T02:13:40Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T02:14:13Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:14:17Z lrvy joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:14:33Z pierpa: Oh. You don't have ∘ on yout keyboards? :) 2017-11-05T02:14:43Z pierpa: *your 2017-11-05T02:15:00Z cgay: No, do you? "European" keyboards? 2017-11-05T02:15:15Z pierpa: I don't have it eithrt. Just kidding. 2017-11-05T02:15:38Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T02:15:57Z cgay: k. wasn't sure. I don't know why they don't want to use ASCII, like God intended. 2017-11-05T02:15:59Z pierpa: And even if I had it I would still prefer to use "compose" 2017-11-05T02:16:10Z pierpa: yeah 2017-11-05T02:16:12Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:16:29Z cgay: 7-bit FOREVAH!!!11! 2017-11-05T02:17:31Z cgay: It's funny, when people want to get me they attack Dylan. I guess it basically works. 2017-11-05T02:17:39Z blasut quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T02:18:20Z cgay: \o/ 2017-11-05T02:19:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:19:15Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:20:01Z Guest22796 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T02:20:39Z cgay: Xach, my impression, as a CL alum and bystander, is that quicklisp has done a lot for CL. Kudos for that. 2017-11-05T02:23:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T02:24:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:25:01Z XachX: It is all in good fun 2017-11-05T02:33:28Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-05T02:34:52Z eudoxia quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T02:35:46Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T02:36:28Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:39:37Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T02:39:51Z msingle joined #lisp 2017-11-05T02:45:32Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T02:48:32Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-05T03:06:09Z msingle quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T03:07:19Z msingle joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:11:32Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T03:13:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:13:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:17:35Z toy joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:19:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T03:21:40Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:24:30Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-05T03:26:25Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-05T03:28:19Z emaczen: morning beach 2017-11-05T03:28:53Z clintm: good morning, beach! 2017-11-05T03:29:51Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-05T03:33:03Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:33:45Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:33:51Z msingle quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T03:36:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:41:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T03:42:08Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T03:43:54Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:45:38Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-05T03:46:05Z dddddd quit (Quit: Hasta otra..) 2017-11-05T03:48:42Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:49:32Z Autolycus joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:51:04Z akem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T03:51:31Z msingle_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T03:53:08Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T03:56:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:01:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T04:11:00Z earl-ducaine: Against my better judgement (judgement would dictate absolutely no programming. ever!) I decided to try and wade into ASDF. I'm trying to get a hook that would allow me to execute an action when the whole system has compiled successfully 2017-11-05T04:11:24Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:11:42Z earl-ducaine: the asdf :around-compile form looked promising: https://gist.github.com/earl-ducaine/a007da006b8d6db8b80223401b22f97f 2017-11-05T04:12:13Z earl-ducaine: Miraculously, that works. 2017-11-05T04:12:51Z earl-ducaine: But, I can't use it (easily) to tell when everything has compiled. 2017-11-05T04:14:01Z earl-ducaine: I *could* check for the file being compiled and when it's file2 then perform my action. But I don't want to hardcode a file name. I want over all compilation success. 2017-11-05T04:14:47Z earl-ducaine: I suspect :around-compile isn't what I want afterall, but I'm not seeing any correct altenative in the ASDF manual 2017-11-05T04:17:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:17:34Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:21:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T04:21:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:22:36Z stylewarning: around-compile is a great feature 2017-11-05T04:23:43Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:27:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T04:27:13Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:28:19Z Autolycus quit 2017-11-05T04:37:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:37:51Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T04:41:49Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T04:42:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T04:42:55Z earl-ducaine: stylewarning: I agree. Just, sadly, not the one I wanted. 2017-11-05T04:43:57Z thebardian quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T04:53:53Z msingle_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T04:55:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:56:16Z k-stz joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:56:40Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:57:08Z emaczen: what is the easiest way to get started with android on ECL? 2017-11-05T04:58:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T04:59:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T05:00:02Z pjb: emaczen: perhaps: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ar.com.playnu.clrepl&hl=en 2017-11-05T05:00:27Z pjb: https://github.com/josrr/crepl 2017-11-05T05:00:54Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T05:01:44Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T05:02:22Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-05T05:02:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T05:03:55Z emaczen: pjb: I actually am trying to port a program I wrote with CCL and cocoa over 2017-11-05T05:06:04Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-05T05:08:27Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery) 2017-11-05T05:09:20Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2017-11-05T05:15:07Z lrvy quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-11-05T05:18:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T05:20:16Z jackdaniel: emaczen: check out EQL5 project 2017-11-05T05:20:29Z jackdaniel: its author played the most with ECL on Android lately 2017-11-05T05:20:59Z jackdaniel: + it will be easier to port a program, because EQL5 gives you GUI primitives right away (Qt5) 2017-11-05T05:21:41Z jackdaniel: emaczen: https://www.lights-of-holiness.eu/android/ 2017-11-05T05:23:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T05:24:28Z jackdaniel: earl-ducaine: you could define your method around asdf:operate specialized on asdf:compile-op and your system 2017-11-05T05:24:38Z jackdaniel: (as in eql specializer) 2017-11-05T05:24:51Z jackdaniel: - or :after 2017-11-05T05:25:52Z jackdaniel: (defmethod asdf:operate :after ((o asdf:compile-op) (c (eql #.(asdf:find-component …)))) (princ "foo the holy grail")) 2017-11-05T05:28:48Z nsrahmad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T05:29:01Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-05T05:35:00Z drmeister: XachX: Are you still up? 2017-11-05T05:36:15Z drmeister: I'd like to embed quicklisp into a version of Clasp - I'm looking for advice on how to go about it. 2017-11-05T05:37:39Z jackdaniel: drmeister: since ql has its directory structure etc you can't avoid step of installation 2017-11-05T05:38:45Z jackdaniel: ECL has ecl-quicklisp module, which does exactly that: downloads quicklisp.lisp installer and calls it, what results in ql installation of a new host (it depends on curl module for http download) 2017-11-05T05:38:46Z drmeister: It's the startup time that I'm trying to shorten. 2017-11-05T05:39:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T05:39:38Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T05:40:56Z drmeister: I see it - thank you. 2017-11-05T05:41:07Z drmeister: The ecl-quicklisp module - I mean. 2017-11-05T05:41:27Z jackdaniel: pretty handy on headless boxes 2017-11-05T05:43:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T05:45:13Z earl-ducaine: jackdaniel: That looks promising! using some sort of method specialization looked like it might have the answer. But I couldn't quite wrap my head around it. 2017-11-05T05:49:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T05:53:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T05:59:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:04:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T06:04:56Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-05T06:07:03Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:07:20Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:07:43Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:08:49Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T06:10:39Z GreaseMonkey: SaganMan: missed you this morning, thanks for linking me to the lisp koans... i knew quite a few things already but it's pretty good at filling in the gaps 2017-11-05T06:11:38Z GreaseMonkey: i'm up to hash tables, i get the feeling i'll probably want to actually use these instead of assoc for anything above a handful of elements 2017-11-05T06:11:46Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T06:19:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:21:13Z beach: GreaseMonkey: Hash tables have some significant overhead. I wouldn't change unless you have several dozens of elements. 2017-11-05T06:22:45Z GreaseMonkey: even then there's definitely places where a vector would be a better choice 2017-11-05T06:23:22Z beach: Right, I was just remarking on the choice between an association list and a hash table. 2017-11-05T06:24:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T06:25:34Z GreaseMonkey: when you say overhead... suppose you had a chat room, i take it it'd still be fine to have a single hash to map usernames to user objects even if that hash doesn't have many elements in it early on? 2017-11-05T06:26:01Z beach: Sure. 2017-11-05T06:26:14Z GreaseMonkey: but OTOH it would be more of an issue to have a hash inside a user object mapping the friend relationships together? 2017-11-05T06:26:25Z GreaseMonkey: because then you'd no longer have 1 hash, you'd have N 2017-11-05T06:26:34Z beach: When performance is unimportant, it doesn't matter what choice you make. 2017-11-05T06:26:51Z GreaseMonkey: here i'm mostly thinking about memory overhead 2017-11-05T06:27:17Z beach: You can essentially forget about memory overhead, unless you have millions of users. 2017-11-05T06:27:39Z beach: I suggest you do a back-of-envelope calculation. 2017-11-05T06:27:43Z beach: It is very educational. 2017-11-05T06:27:53Z beach: If you need help with the details, let me know. 2017-11-05T06:30:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:31:19Z GreaseMonkey: i'd've thought that the performance issues would mostly arise from memory allocation costs 2017-11-05T06:31:48Z beach: As in the time to allocate memory, or as in the amount of space that is being allocated? 2017-11-05T06:31:55Z GreaseMonkey: time to allocate 2017-11-05T06:32:58Z beach: And what made you think that? What numbers did you put into your calculation to make that conclusion? 2017-11-05T06:34:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T06:35:12Z GreaseMonkey: i don't have concrete numbers here. what i do know is that a hash table typically starts out with an initial number of slots for elements, whereas a linked list really only needs to be the length of a pointer plus the length of the data itself. 2017-11-05T06:36:03Z GreaseMonkey: if that initial number of slots isn't reasonably large then the table is going to be reallocated several times as it resizes 2017-11-05T06:36:06Z beach: I am asking because there are many wrong decisions made in software development because of the failure to do a very simple back-of-envelope calculation. And these wrong decisions end up costing a lot in terms of development time and maintenance time. 2017-11-05T06:36:16Z GreaseMonkey: fair enough 2017-11-05T06:37:45Z pjb: And allocation is time critical? 2017-11-05T06:38:06Z GreaseMonkey: if you're doing it in the middle of a tight loop then allocating and deallocating is going to slow things down 2017-11-05T06:38:07Z pjb: If that's the case, then your program is not doing anything. You can avoid programming it. 2017-11-05T06:38:29Z beach: pjb: It probably isn't, but we have to see the number to be sure. Like the number of allocations per time unit, the typical size of the memory being allocated, etc. 2017-11-05T06:39:00Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:39:04Z pjb: a quick benchmark demonstrates that indeed, make-hash-table is two order of magnitude slower than cons. 2017-11-05T06:39:06Z beach: GreaseMonkey: Most Common Lisp systems have a copying GC. First of all, with such a GC, you never deallocate. 2017-11-05T06:39:22Z beach: GreaseMonkey: Second, allocation in such a system is a matter of bumping a pointer. 2017-11-05T06:41:59Z beach: GreaseMonkey: In fact, that's a general thing I observe, even in professional development projects. Assumptions are made based on incorrect information, simply because the developers are ignorant of things like automatic memory management, compiler optimization, data structures, etc. 2017-11-05T06:43:13Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T06:45:21Z GreaseMonkey: yep... i'm coming from a C background and i have a fairly decent grasp of how the optimisations work there, but that's mostly because i've had to learn certain things because i've had to hack together toolchains for hobby stuff 2017-11-05T06:45:30Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:45:34Z GreaseMonkey: and lisp is definitely a different beast to optimise 2017-11-05T06:45:43Z beach: My favorite wrong decision (which is also relevant to this channel) is when the choice of a programming language is made from insufficient knowledge. I often hear decisions such as "We need all the speed we can get, so let's choose C++, because it is known that the C++ compiler generates fast code". 2017-11-05T06:45:44Z beach: But "we need all the speed we can get" is better put like this: "no matter how much additional cost, development time, maintenance cost, even for a very small amount of additional performance, it is worth it". 2017-11-05T06:46:52Z pjb: People don't realize that the parts written in C or C++ are the slowest part of any program. Write everything in lisp! 2017-11-05T06:47:23Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T06:48:04Z beach: pjb: For one thing, people still think that access to a global variable in C is just a memory access, but with dynamic libraries and such there is a lot of overhead for that. 2017-11-05T06:48:18Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T06:49:09Z GreaseMonkey: i guess a good trick question for anyone doing C is "what's faster: i += i, i *= 2, or i <<= 1?" 2017-11-05T06:49:20Z GreaseMonkey: probably applies to a lot of langs 2017-11-05T06:50:10Z beach: And the very likely answer is that the generated code is the same in all cases. 2017-11-05T06:50:19Z GreaseMonkey: yep 2017-11-05T06:50:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T06:51:30Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-05T06:52:27Z beach: Though, details are mostly beside the point. The lack of back-of-envelope calculations, usually because of ignorance, or because of people's intuitions are off by orders of magnitude, is a big problem. 2017-11-05T06:53:26Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T06:53:45Z beach: And it happens to very smart people too. I guess this phenomenon is about the fast-but-wrong vs the slow-but-lazy brain modules described by Kahneman. 2017-11-05T06:54:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T07:02:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T07:10:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:15:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T07:16:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-05T07:17:44Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-05T07:25:24Z arborist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-05T07:26:35Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:29:25Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:31:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:31:02Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:35:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T07:35:54Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:36:31Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T07:38:35Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-05T07:43:04Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:43:50Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-05T07:51:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T07:56:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T07:58:30Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:00:16Z takitus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T08:01:05Z p_l: beach: I found that having CL:DISASSEMBLE with comments from compiler helps a lot in understanding just how what one wrote turns into code 2017-11-05T08:06:28Z beach: p_l: I totally agree. When I learned Pascal in 1975, one of the first things I did was to look at the generated code (which turned out not to be very helpful). But most developers probably wouldn't know what they are looking at. 2017-11-05T08:07:54Z p_l: I'm reminded of an embedded developer talking about "listing" once and everyone thinking it was something simple - then it turned out that he was accustomed to tools that gave detailed information about final output in symbolic form, with addresses etc. 2017-11-05T08:08:01Z p_l: it's something that isn't seen often these days 2017-11-05T08:08:33Z beach: I see, yes. 2017-11-05T08:10:48Z p_l had seen some interesting Lisp (and not only) articles from game developers, the kind that work on custom engines and truly have to squeeze every last cycle out 2017-11-05T08:12:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:16:28Z cess11 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T08:16:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T08:16:44Z cess11 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:19:34Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:22:24Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:23:23Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T08:24:44Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T08:25:13Z p_l: but that's the kind of devs who know how the system works backwards and forwards, even if they still use C++ ;) 2017-11-05T08:25:21Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:25:58Z Shinmera: I'm glad I live in a time when you can make games without having to be a performance nut. 2017-11-05T08:27:05Z whoman: whoa, i'm 1.3.x still.. sbcl 1.4.0 ? btw 1.4.1 now. (see topic) 2017-11-05T08:27:45Z p_l: Shinmera: the funny thing for me is that "performance nuts" tend to be mostly the cargo culters, while the ones actually pulling crazy perf tricks do all kinds of interesting things instead of just parroting things like "you must write in C++ because it's close to metal" or "GC is always bad" 2017-11-05T08:28:16Z p_l: ... then, reading what people had to do to write engines for consoles you can't get without actually grokking memory management 2017-11-05T08:29:21Z Shinmera: Sure. But then you read about stuff like squeezing two integers into a float to save a texture and I just cringe a lot. 2017-11-05T08:29:43Z shka_: p_l: i don't think that this is current main stream you are talking about 2017-11-05T08:30:44Z shka_: it is way easier to use unity or unreal engine, and that's what most of games do nowadays 2017-11-05T08:30:47Z p_l: shka_: from my occassional looking into gamedev world (it's horrible place) there's big divide between places that build engines and places that just use without great modification 2017-11-05T08:30:53Z p_l: but there are still places like that 2017-11-05T08:31:14Z p_l: Though it might be related at least slightly to how PS3 required a lot of custom approaches 2017-11-05T08:31:47Z p_l: Shinmera: I've seen linked lists done as arrays, too 2017-11-05T08:31:51Z whoman: consumers vs. producers. (female v. male) is always a thing, in every area of living n dying 2017-11-05T08:31:57Z Shinmera: It apparently took around half a year to get to the point where you can draw a triangle onto the screen with the PS3 2017-11-05T08:32:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:33:04Z whoman: i like the middle where the engine and game are the same; if need your old code/assets, then copy code into a new project 2017-11-05T08:33:26Z p_l: Shinmera: I heard that a) the official drivers were crap b) devs ended up replicating Naughty Dog's trick from PS1, i.e. thrown out SDK graphic code and wrote their own drivers. Not sure how much of that ended up in nouveau 2017-11-05T08:33:41Z whoman: we dont put diesel engines on bikes, but we dont use batteries for freight liners 2017-11-05T08:33:49Z Shinmera: p_l: Heh. Ho boy. 2017-11-05T08:34:26Z p_l: Shinmera: something something code shared between studios behind the scenes, at least that's what I understood 2017-11-05T08:34:45Z p_l: I didn't have time to delve too deep, and well, consoles aren't of interest to me 2017-11-05T08:35:09Z whoman: today consoles are mostly OpenGL and they run webkit and stuff. 2017-11-05T08:35:11Z p_l: (though Naughty Dog's tech articles/presentations are interesting, including things like their small RTOS for SPUs) 2017-11-05T08:35:19Z Shinmera: Being able to develop games for the Switch would be cool. 2017-11-05T08:35:31Z p_l: whoman: only PS4 is OpenGL/Vulkan 2017-11-05T08:35:44Z p_l: Before PS4, the only exception was XBox line for having somewhat sensible APIs 2017-11-05T08:35:49Z whoman: nintendo has a webkit development thing, the wii and switch do html5/css3 app downloads 2017-11-05T08:36:03Z stapler joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:36:14Z aeth: p_l: The DirectXbox 2017-11-05T08:36:17Z whoman: p_l, gamecube, wii, switch - they are GL ES are they not ? 2017-11-05T08:36:17Z p_l: yeah, but that's because webkit is easy to get integrated, not because it's main dev platform for the system 2017-11-05T08:36:38Z shka_: whoman: they are not really opengl 2017-11-05T08:36:44Z p_l: whoman: switch might have GL, gamecube is older than GLES, wii... not sure but don't think so 2017-11-05T08:36:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T08:36:52Z whoman: OpenGL ES - like 2017-11-05T08:37:02Z Shinmera: p_l: Switch has GL 4.5 and Vulkan. Devkits aren't available openly yet though. 2017-11-05T08:37:06Z p_l: also, GLES1 vs. GLES2 is two completely different things 2017-11-05T08:37:38Z whoman: anyway. point is its not complicated API at all. very simple. 2017-11-05T08:37:49Z p_l: original PSP was essentially PS2-style programming (i.e. crazy MIPS with part of the graphic pipeline as coprocessor instructions) 2017-11-05T08:37:49Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:37:50Z whoman: dont mean to have to provide citations 2017-11-05T08:37:53Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:39:08Z p_l: whoman: API vs. actual use is two different things. You need to have apropriate memory layouts, because for example not all memory regions have same DMA access for different devices, you might have to manipulate command pipeline directly, etc. 2017-11-05T08:42:51Z whoman: um ok 2017-11-05T08:44:02Z p_l: one of the big problems with GL is how the classic pipeline essentially expected SGI hardware underneath, complicating things when it stopped being the case 2017-11-05T08:45:04Z whoman: i bet n64 had some "GL" stuff surely 2017-11-05T08:45:14Z whoman: irisGL inspiredness 2017-11-05T08:47:55Z p_l: possible 2017-11-05T08:48:17Z p_l: though, it wouldn't be the first time the API used on two platforms differed 2017-11-05T08:48:53Z p_l: Naughty Dog's first game ran both on Iris GL and directly on PSX graphic hardware 2017-11-05T08:49:06Z p_l: (much slower on IrisGL) 2017-11-05T08:49:32Z p_l: and there would be various differences, for example lack of Xsgi 2017-11-05T08:52:18Z whoman: ahh good old days of using mesa for 2d rendering .. 2017-11-05T08:52:57Z whoman: interesting, i didnt know their games ran on Iris GL also. i have always been inspired by id Soft's use of the NeXT platform during doom-quake years 2017-11-05T08:52:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:54:49Z p_l: whoman: the devs wrote about how they invested lots of money into SGI workstations for both graphics and developement, and that in order to make it quicker to develop and playtest they made the game run on Irix 2017-11-05T08:55:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T08:57:08Z whoman: i think mario64 was done that way. lots of polish on that game, they worked on the gameplay and movement of mario mostly code-wise, aside from optimizations 2017-11-05T08:57:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T09:00:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T09:05:23Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T09:05:28Z p_l: as for why it's sometimes necessary to be performance nut... it's what makes game more available at times, because not everyone has newest computer :| 2017-11-05T09:07:45Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T09:08:16Z Shinmera: Sure. I'm just saying I'm glad I can use CL and CLOS and work on my game efficiently without having to worry about performance for the most part. 2017-11-05T09:11:51Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:11:52Z visof quit (Changing host) 2017-11-05T09:11:52Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:13:16Z Guest22796 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:13:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:16:31Z Shinmera: Plus what bites you more easily than performance constraints is platform differences, as I've found. 2017-11-05T09:16:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:17:41Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T09:18:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T09:21:10Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:21:37Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:23:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:28:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T09:31:27Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T09:34:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T09:38:30Z vydd joined #lisp 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I don't even remember how I came across that. 2017-11-05T15:01:55Z Cthulhux: ^^ 2017-11-05T15:02:09Z Cthulhux: hey, it works! 2017-11-05T15:02:27Z loke: Hey, I have a similar thing. Shinmera, you'll love this one, and it's MY code. :-) 2017-11-05T15:02:45Z Shinmera: I've been dealing with Windows COM APIs all day. Nothing can shock me now 2017-11-05T15:03:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:03:23Z loke: Shinmera: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/rabbitmq-notifications.lisp#L297 2017-11-05T15:04:02Z Shinmera: 150 lines for a single function. Yeesh. 2017-11-05T15:04:30Z loke: Shinmera: Yeah, I'm not proud of it. 2017-11-05T15:04:34Z Cthulhux: loke: you should totally encapsulate this into an object! 2017-11-05T15:05:07Z loke: Cthulhux: Totally. 2017-11-05T15:07:11Z Shinmera: Oh hey I remembered right. How about this: https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-http/blob/master/src/multipart-parser.lisp#L62 2017-11-05T15:07:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:07:59Z shka_ hides his code full of such functions 2017-11-05T15:08:00Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:08:02Z loke: To be fair, half of the code in my example was functions in a LABELS form. 2017-11-05T15:09:05Z loke: The funny thing is, that even these bad functions are, in my opinion, much easier to quickly grok compared to an average function in Java or C. And I've actually been programming those languages longer than CL. 2017-11-05T15:09:34Z shka_: yeah, funny 2017-11-05T15:09:58Z shka_: i have the same 2017-11-05T15:10:37Z loke: I have noticed that when contributing to opensource projects. Fixing issues or adding features to a random CL project whose code I've seen for the first time usually takes 30 minutes or so. In Java or C I'm looking at multiple hours if not days. 2017-11-05T15:13:32Z Cthulhux: because java is verbose. 2017-11-05T15:13:34Z shka_: i wish somebody could perform proper scientific research on this subject 2017-11-05T15:13:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:13:45Z Cthulhux: you CAN write obfuscated code in CL. 2017-11-05T15:16:17Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:17:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:18:21Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:19:42Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:20:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:22:33Z pjb: shka_: http://cliki.net/Performance 2017-11-05T15:23:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:23:39Z shka_: oh 2017-11-05T15:23:47Z shka_: neat 2017-11-05T15:29:56Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:33:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:37:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:38:06Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:38:57Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:43:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:47:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T15:52:02Z tegiticr joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:52:09Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T15:52:35Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:54:07Z toy joined #lisp 2017-11-05T15:56:08Z tegiticr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T15:58:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:01:32Z pfdietz: I would like to see CLOS-style CL code be made faster. Looking up a slot value in a standard-object is quite a bit more work than looking up a value in a structure object. 2017-11-05T16:02:04Z pfdietz: Being able to dynamically redefine classes makes this difficult. 2017-11-05T16:02:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:02:49Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T16:03:24Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: check out inlined-generic-functions which provide MOP for that 2017-11-05T16:03:29Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:03:44Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/ 2017-11-05T16:03:55Z Bike: i think with beach's thing a slot access is a pointer read+compare to make sure the object isn't obsolete, and then a vector access 2017-11-05T16:03:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:04:06Z Bike: on the fast path, i mean 2017-11-05T16:04:15Z loke: pfdietz: Have you actually measured performance problems with classes comapred to structs? 2017-11-05T16:04:32Z loke: Not just hypothetical or microbenchmarks, but real-life performance problems? 2017-11-05T16:04:38Z visof quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-11-05T16:04:52Z pfdietz: No, this is not based on direct experience like that. TY for link, jackdaniel. 2017-11-05T16:05:16Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:05:41Z Bike: an unsafe struct read can skip to the vector part, so it'll probably always be faster, but not necessarily by much 2017-11-05T16:07:24Z okflo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:07:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:07:56Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:08:21Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:08:27Z pfdietz: The ordering of slots can vary depending the class of the object, so there's an extra level of indirection vs. structures, where single inheritance means the offsets are fixed. 2017-11-05T16:08:44Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:08:45Z Jen is now known as Guest7057 2017-11-05T16:09:38Z Bike: beach's thing compiles an effective method function for each actual set of specializers, so it can use the location for the particular class anyway 2017-11-05T16:10:56Z pfdietz: Assuming that no one later defines a subclass where the slots are laid out differently? Or does that mean extra method functions get compiled when that class is defined (or the old ones invalidated). 2017-11-05T16:11:29Z Bike: right, the subclass gets its own functions. 2017-11-05T16:11:43Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:12:11Z Bike: you do also have to find the right function with some type branches first, and those can be integer compares 2017-11-05T16:13:26Z pfdietz: Does it buy you anything if you can specify a class is a final class? 2017-11-05T16:13:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:13:48Z Bike: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf the paper 2017-11-05T16:14:29Z Bike: I suppose if it's final, and the accessor method is defined on that class (rather than a superclass), you could have the method use the location directly even with another dispatch technique 2017-11-05T16:14:49Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T16:16:35Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:16:42Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:17:12Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:17:31Z pfdietz: Not too hard to specify that by having the CL implementation provide a FINAL-STANDARD-CLASS metaclass, and specify that in the DEFCLASS. 2017-11-05T16:18:23Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:18:40Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:20:15Z Guest7057 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:21:14Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:22:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:22:30Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:22:57Z whyNOP joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:23:24Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:24:09Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:25:04Z deba5e12_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:25:08Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:25:34Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:27:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:29:03Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-05T16:29:35Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:30:08Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:31:44Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:32:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:32:49Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:33:25Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:34:22Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:34:48Z blasut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:34:59Z void__ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:35:10Z void__ is now known as user24 2017-11-05T16:36:30Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:37:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:38:57Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:39:22Z scymtym: pfdietz: would that prevent redefinition or subclassing or something else? 2017-11-05T16:42:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:45:54Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:47:32Z toy quit (Quit: toy) 2017-11-05T16:47:35Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:48:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:49:34Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T16:49:46Z hydan joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:50:57Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:53:01Z _akem: if I want to duplicate all elements of a list lst in CL, is it considered "bad style" to use append? my solution (the recursive step) is basically: (append (list (car lst) (car lst)) (duplicate (cdr lst))) 2017-11-05T16:53:14Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-05T16:53:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T16:54:08Z shka_: uhm 2017-11-05T16:54:30Z shka_: why do you even need to do that? 2017-11-05T16:55:08Z _akem: it's just for practice 2017-11-05T16:55:13Z shka_: right 2017-11-05T16:55:48Z shka_: well, i would probably use reduce instead 2017-11-05T16:55:50Z jackdaniel: _akem: sounds fine. note that most people will recommend using iteration for that 2017-11-05T16:56:05Z shka_: there is other problem, though 2017-11-05T16:56:15Z _akem: I see.. 2017-11-05T16:56:20Z shka_: this may exhaust stack on very long lists 2017-11-05T16:56:49Z shka_: you could rewrite this in tail recursive style, but this is just not worth it, imho 2017-11-05T16:57:01Z pjb: _akem: for practice, using append in a recursion is bad, because it will lead to O(n^2) or worse complexity. 2017-11-05T16:57:12Z shka_: yes, that as well 2017-11-05T16:57:24Z pjb: _akem: for practice, you should learn that append copies all its arguments but the last one. 2017-11-05T16:57:47Z pjb: _akem: you could obtain a list with all the elements duplicated using append this way: (append list list). 2017-11-05T16:58:02Z pjb: (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4))) (append list list)) #| --> (1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4) |# 2017-11-05T16:58:33Z _akem: ah no I want to have 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 2017-11-05T16:58:47Z pjb: If you need to have them in the order you wrote above, you can use mapcan: (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4))) (mapcan (function list) list list)) #| --> (1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4) |# 2017-11-05T16:58:48Z jackdaniel: (loop for x in '(1 2 3 4 5) collect x collect x) ; is one way to do that with iteration 2017-11-05T16:58:53Z _akem: but yes I read that about append, the copying part, it made me suspicious 2017-11-05T16:59:05Z pjb: But the loop is probably more efficient. 2017-11-05T16:59:22Z _akem: jackdaniel: thanks I'll try it, haven't read about loop yet 2017-11-05T16:59:45Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:00:12Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:00:51Z _akem: pjb: nice thanks 2017-11-05T17:01:17Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:02:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:03:03Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:03:36Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:04:00Z Jen is now known as Guest77540 2017-11-05T17:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:04:53Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:07:05Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:08:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:08:17Z beach: pfdietz: For a fair comparison, you should definitely check out my generic dispatch technique, not what is implemented in current implementations. 2017-11-05T17:09:36Z beach: pfdietz: I am not sure that making a class final would help the least, so that might be wasted work then. 2017-11-05T17:12:17Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:12:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:19:08Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:22:27Z Guest77540 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:25:29Z caseyowo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-05T17:27:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:27:51Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:29:41Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:30:44Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:31:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:32:56Z Fare is trying to write a proposal for OBT at POPL 2018 -- two pages out of one idea in my thesis. Does the runtime protocol make sense publishing this way? the category theory stuff? 2017-11-05T17:37:21Z drmeister: pfdietz: Can I say anything about beach's fast generic dispatch technique that hasn't been said? I've implemented it in Clasp and it's as faithful to beach's paper as I think it can be. Detecting if an object is obsolete is essentially free - it gets done as the tail end of a missed dispatch. Slot accessors are inlined in the dispatch function. Dispatch involves two memory reads per specialized argument and a 2017-11-05T17:37:21Z drmeister: bunch of integer comparisons. 2017-11-05T17:37:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:40:45Z frgo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:42:02Z drmeister goes back to waiting for Clasp to compile and playing the new Zelda: "Fart in the Wind" 2017-11-05T17:42:10Z drmeister: Oh - sorry - "Breath of the Wild" 2017-11-05T17:42:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:45:47Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:45:49Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:45:59Z drmeister just realizes he's in #lisp and not #clasp 2017-11-05T17:47:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:52:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:53:15Z shka_: drmeister: it happens 2017-11-05T17:56:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T17:57:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T17:57:24Z shka_: does anybody know about compatibility layer source code introspection? 2017-11-05T18:01:41Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:02:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:02:25Z Shinmera: What kind of introspection 2017-11-05T18:02:39Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:03:29Z shka_: source location for function, form definition if possible 2017-11-05T18:04:00Z Shinmera: Dissect has some internals for that, but nothing public. 2017-11-05T18:04:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:04:49Z Shinmera: Otherwise, just rip what you need out of the slime/swank source. 2017-11-05T18:05:09Z shka_: oh, well, i can live without it 2017-11-05T18:05:19Z moei joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:09:54Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:10:39Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-05T18:13:02Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T18:14:03Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T18:14:12Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:14:33Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:15:01Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:16:44Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:18:08Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:20:51Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:20:53Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:20:57Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:21:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:23:12Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:26:02Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:32:52Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:35:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:36:19Z elazul joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:37:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:37:34Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:40:47Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T18:41:47Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:42:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:42:14Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:44:27Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:47:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:50:05Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:50:41Z elazul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:52:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T18:53:07Z drmeister: Does anyone recognize this asdf/quicklisp error? Is my quicklisp or asdf (or both) out of date? 2017-11-05T18:53:23Z drmeister: Warning really. 2017-11-05T18:53:24Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2DWtyk3h/ 2017-11-05T18:53:34Z drmeister: ;;; Warning: DEPRECATED-FUNCTION-STYLE-WARNING: Using deprecated function ASDF/BACKWARD-INTERFACE:COMPONENT-LOAD-DEPENDENCIES -- please update your code to use a newer API. 2017-11-05T18:53:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:53:59Z Shinmera: Just means some system somewhere is using ASDF features that were deprecated. 2017-11-05T18:54:02Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T18:55:23Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:56:50Z JenElizabeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T18:56:59Z drmeister: Oh - some system - ok. 2017-11-05T18:57:16Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-05T18:59:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:03:46Z Shinmera: Streaming some lisp gamedev now, for those that want to relax on a sunday evening: http://stream.shinmera.com 2017-11-05T19:04:43Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:04:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:08:06Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:09:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:14:25Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:15:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:15:47Z jackivan88 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T19:16:59Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:17:00Z jackivan88 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:19:04Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:24:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:25:49Z _akem: is there a reason to use zerop over = when checking if a value I know is integer is zero? 2017-11-05T19:26:58Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T19:27:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:28:02Z shrdlu68: _akem: I think it's a matter of aesthetics. 2017-11-05T19:28:17Z _akem: alright 2017-11-05T19:29:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:29:38Z shrdlu68: For me, #'zerop is more concise in this case. 2017-11-05T19:31:13Z edgar-rft: zerop needs one argument les to type-check, so it's probably faster 2017-11-05T19:31:24Z edgar-rft: * less 2017-11-05T19:31:54Z shka_: heh 2017-11-05T19:31:57Z shka_: unlikely 2017-11-05T19:32:30Z shrdlu68: Even if that were the case, it would be unlikely to matter. 2017-11-05T19:32:32Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:33:58Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:34:30Z edgar-rft: in every CPU there's a comman to check the zero-flag, so zerop can be implemented in one CPU cycle 2017-11-05T19:34:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:36:09Z shrdlu68: What if the argument is a bignum? 2017-11-05T19:36:26Z aeth: What I tend to do is (zerop foo) and (= 1 foo) and (= 2 foo) etc., for consistency. zerop might look more out of place if the alternative is (= foo 0) and foo might be a big expression that takes up tons of lines, so putting the number at the end just obfuscates it. 2017-11-05T19:36:40Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T19:37:51Z aeth: I do this all the time if I use (zerop foo) and (= 1 foo) in the same place, e.g. in a cond. 2017-11-05T19:38:07Z edgar-rft: I agree that human-readability of Lisp code is often more important than speed 2017-11-05T19:38:45Z aeth: well, ideally, a compiler should be able to make this all just a matter of readability 2017-11-05T19:38:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:39:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:39:29Z edgar-rft: how realistic is an ideal compiler :-) 2017-11-05T19:40:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T19:40:10Z aeth: We're probably closer to an ideal compiler when the data is restricted to integers (or especially fixnums) than programming in general :-p 2017-11-05T19:42:55Z aeth: e.g. in theory (loop for i from 0 to n sum i) could be rewritten to (/ (* n (1+ n)) 2) by the compiler 2017-11-05T19:43:20Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:44:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:44:54Z aeth: some optimizing compilers (probably not CL ones, though) probably know all the summation identities for integers (but they can't apply them to floats, apparently) 2017-11-05T19:45:11Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:45:13Z shrdlu68: If it could generalize that and generate such code consistently, gentlement, I think our work here would be finished. 2017-11-05T19:45:30Z shrdlu68: Dust off and go home. 2017-11-05T19:47:37Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:49:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:50:25Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T19:53:00Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:57:05Z ninegrid_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:57:14Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T19:57:34Z aoh__ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:58:13Z deba5e121 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T19:58:25Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T19:59:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T20:00:20Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:00:35Z MerinoBailon joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:00:36Z gabiruh_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:00:37Z pmden_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:00:37Z dim` joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:01:38Z catern_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:02:43Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:02:57Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T20:03:23Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:03:42Z akash47_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:03:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:04:50Z amer joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:05:41Z reu_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:06:35Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T20:06:43Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T20:06:57Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:08:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T20:11:41Z takitus quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:41Z wheelsucker quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:41Z raynold quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:41Z deba5e12_ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:41Z neoncontrails quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:41Z vydd quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:42Z ninegrid quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:42Z Kevslinger quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:42Z dim quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:42Z angular_mike quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:42Z happy_gnu[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:42Z dirb quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:43Z antoszka quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:43Z dahs81[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z bailon quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z aoh quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z banjiewen quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z reu quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z catern quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z pmden quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z dxtr quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z akash47 quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z gbyers quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z amerlyq quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z dmh quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:44Z Meow-J quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:45Z jurov quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:45Z gabiruh quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-05T20:11:45Z catern_ is now known as catern 2017-11-05T20:11:45Z dim` is now known as dim 2017-11-05T20:16:20Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-05T20:16:55Z jurov_ is now known as jurov 2017-11-05T20:17:52Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T20:19:32Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T20:20:01Z earl-ducaine: Hey lispologists! Question about conventions: asterisks should be used to denote special variables, i.e. global with dynamic scope, e.g. *a-special-variable-*. I'm pretty sure about that. But what's the convention for global-ish variables with lexical scope,e.g. 2017-11-05T20:20:40Z Guest22796 is now known as lisp_guest 2017-11-05T20:21:09Z earl-ducaine: (let ( (first-allocatable-colormap-index 1)) (defun using-colormap () first-allocatable-colormap-index ))) 2017-11-05T20:21:18Z earl-ducaine: at the top level 2017-11-05T20:21:36Z earl-ducaine: should that be +first-allocatable-colormap-index+ 2017-11-05T20:21:49Z lisp_guest: afaik, + is used for constants 2017-11-05T20:22:45Z earl-ducaine: Ah, ah. Which is a globalish variable I suppose. 2017-11-05T20:22:49Z lisp_guest: yeah 2017-11-05T20:22:51Z lisp_guest: a lexical variable can't really be global, because they're introduced in lexical environments which correspond to source code sections 2017-11-05T20:22:53Z dxtr joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:23:20Z lisp_guest: i mean, if you have a top-level let or something, i guess you could look at it as "global" if all of your code is inside that one let 2017-11-05T20:23:56Z lisp_guest: but i don't think there's a special convention for that, you'll see that the code is indented anyway 2017-11-05T20:23:57Z earl-ducaine: Right. what's really being created is a global closure that's accessed by a function. 2017-11-05T20:25:06Z earl-ducaine: Yep, leaving the variable undecorated, and just adding a comment seems the the least confusing. Thanks! 2017-11-05T20:25:44Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:25:50Z lisp_guest: earl-ducaine, :-) 2017-11-05T20:26:01Z user24 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T20:26:17Z aeth: the reason why a real global is like *foo* or (if constant) +foo+ is because it can cause unexpected surprises if you redefine them (well, you can't redefine +foo+, which is a surprise) 2017-11-05T20:27:00Z aeth: e.g. there are some global constants that don't have +s around them because they're old and CL is backwards compatible, but look what happens when you try to do this: (let ((most-positive-fixnum 42)) (+ most-positive-fixnum 42)) 2017-11-05T20:27:11Z aeth: Special variables also have issues, but with constants the issues are more obvious 2017-11-05T20:28:55Z aeth: You can still get unexpected behavior with special variables, e.g. imagine if this didn't have *s (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (format t "~S~%" *print-case*)) 2017-11-05T20:30:28Z aeth: If you have a lexical global, lets won't temporarily redefine it, only something that setfs can change it, and if you locally use the same name, there's no issue 2017-11-05T20:30:57Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-05T20:31:49Z aeth: i.e. it's *foo* not because it's global but so you don't accidentally use *foo* as a variable name somewhere else and get unexpected behavior. 2017-11-05T20:33:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:36:53Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:38:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-05T20:43:08Z user24 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:45:18Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:50:30Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T20:50:56Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:53:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:53:50Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-11-05T20:57:48Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:01:35Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:03:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:07:31Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-11-05T21:08:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:08:19Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:10:48Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:12:21Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T21:13:11Z user24 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 56.0/20171003101344]) 2017-11-05T21:14:14Z trebor_dki joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:14:28Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T21:15:01Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T21:17:01Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T21:22:50Z earl-ducaine: Any thoughts on what the likelihood is that a: (declaim (inline my-function)) might (sbcl) 1. inline a function that wouldn't be inlined anyway , 2. might actually result in a performanc improvement. 3. wouldn't have current or future unintended consequences? 2017-11-05T21:23:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:23:51Z earl-ducaine: rule of thumb, generally speaking, on code that someone at some point thought needed to run fast. 2017-11-05T21:24:24Z Josh_2: SBCL automatically inlines functions? 2017-11-05T21:24:45Z shka_: sometimes! 2017-11-05T21:25:16Z shka_: but it has tone of requirements in order to do so 2017-11-05T21:25:25Z Josh_2: I'll add that to my On_lisp notes :P 2017-11-05T21:26:07Z shka_: honestly, tricking SBCL to do stuff my way on the lowest level is beyond me 2017-11-05T21:26:10Z Josh_2: You are only meant to Inline on small functions no? Like the examples in On lisp 2017-11-05T21:26:25Z shka_: sort of 2017-11-05T21:26:43Z whoman: disassemble 2017-11-05T21:27:12Z shka_: Josh_2: usually, yes 2017-11-05T21:27:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:27:36Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:27:36Z shka_: SBCL can act rather weird if you are trying to inline very large blocks of code 2017-11-05T21:27:36Z Josh_2: What are the other reasons? 2017-11-05T21:28:18Z shka_: other reasons to inline? 2017-11-05T21:28:37Z Josh_2: I mean, it's about speed right? 2017-11-05T21:28:43Z Josh_2: Are there other reasons? 2017-11-05T21:28:51Z shka_: i don't think so 2017-11-05T21:28:57Z Josh_2: "If we have a particularly small function, we may want to request that it be 2017-11-05T21:28:57Z Josh_2: compiled inline. Otherwise, the machinery of calling it could entail more effort 2017-11-05T21:28:57Z Josh_2: than the function itself." 2017-11-05T21:29:01Z Josh_2: fack sorry 2017-11-05T21:29:20Z Josh_2: Didn't want all those returns 2017-11-05T21:29:27Z shka_: inline is inferior in everything but execution speed 2017-11-05T21:29:38Z shka_: as far as i can tell 2017-11-05T21:30:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:30:20Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:31:28Z aeth: inline is good for e.g. a function like 2+, so e.g. (declaim (inline 2+)) (defun 2+ (number) (+ 2 number)) 2017-11-05T21:31:49Z Josh_2: Why declaim not proclaim? 2017-11-05T21:31:49Z MochaLoca joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:31:54Z aeth: it's trivial, it's well defined (so you're never going to redefine it and have stale users), and inlining it will make it much more efficient because now it might know the type of number instead of using a generic + 2017-11-05T21:32:06Z aeth: declaim is just what you do for functions afaik 2017-11-05T21:32:14Z Josh_2: It's proclaim in On Lisp and I've never really used either 2017-11-05T21:33:02Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:33:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:33:51Z jsnell: declaim is a macro, proclaim is a function. they have the same effect 2017-11-05T21:34:38Z aeth: I have always seen inlining as declaim immediately above the function, whether at the top level or in a top level progn generated by a macro 2017-11-05T21:35:19Z jsnell: you'd use declaim in most cases, proclaim if the declaration needs to be evaluated (i.e. is not a constant) 2017-11-05T21:35:28Z aeth: ah 2017-11-05T21:36:04Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:36:13Z Josh_2: Thanks 2017-11-05T21:36:48Z jsnell: also, if using proclaim in a file you intend to compile, you need to make sure you have the appropriate eval-when wrappers around it 2017-11-05T21:37:10Z fikka quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-05T21:38:04Z aeth: Be careful, though! A small function isn't necessarily actually small, because it could have inline functions and macros and generate something very elaborate. You could try disassembling something to see how small it really is (although if it's inlined it's often smaller, e.g. arithmetic stuff will often no longer be generic) 2017-11-05T21:39:07Z aeth: (Of course, disassemble will only give you one compiler's version, so it's not ideal.) 2017-11-05T21:39:20Z Josh_2: Pretty much low level raw lisp 2017-11-05T21:39:27Z Josh_2: and a small amoont 2017-11-05T21:42:43Z aeth: This is pretty cool: (declaim (inline 2+)) (defun 2+ (number) (+ 2 number)) (defun foo () (2+ 3)) 2017-11-05T21:43:20Z aeth: Now (disassemble #'2+) and (disassemble #'foo) and you'll see that #'foo is much smaller and simpler than #'2+ at least in SBCL 2017-11-05T21:43:44Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-11-05T21:43:53Z aeth: Clever usage of macros and inlining can assist the compiler greatly, and make high level code work very efficiently. It can be fun. 2017-11-05T21:44:54Z aeth: Even in this function with arbitrary single-float input, it's probably going to be more efficient: (defun bar (x) (declare (single-float x)) (2+ x)) 2017-11-05T21:48:05Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:50:04Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T21:50:28Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:50:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:50:54Z gbyers joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:51:01Z antoszka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:51:28Z dmh joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:51:32Z visof quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:51:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:51:44Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:51:53Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:52:03Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:52:36Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:53:03Z angular_mike joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:53:12Z trigt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:53:12Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:53:14Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:53:27Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:53:28Z jself quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:53:41Z akr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:53:42Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:53:46Z equalunique[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:09Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:09Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:09Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:17Z CharlieBrown quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:22Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:22Z clintm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:22Z Guest7245 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:22Z astronavt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:22Z l04m33[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:54:37Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:55:12Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-05T21:56:03Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:58:18Z jself joined #lisp 2017-11-05T21:58:37Z emaczen: Ok, so my program did run out of memory again! 2017-11-05T21:59:03Z emaczen: I'll make a paste... 2017-11-05T22:00:20Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-05T22:07:39Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:15:59Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-05T22:18:22Z cess11 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T22:20:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:20:54Z okflo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T22:21:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:21:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-05T22:21:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:24:01Z stnutt quit 2017-11-05T22:26:29Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:31:29Z stux|RC quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T22:31:39Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-05T22:38:52Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-05T22:40:25Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T22:40:37Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:40:39Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:41:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:13Z akr joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:13Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:13Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z Guest67606 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z happy_gnu[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z astronavt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z Guest16039 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z dahs81[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:14Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:15Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:15Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:21Z trigt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:22Z dirb joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:42:22Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:46:01Z cess11 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:49:01Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2017-11-05T22:51:52Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T22:54:06Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-05T22:54:39Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T22:56:14Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:00:39Z wxie quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-05T23:01:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T23:01:33Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:05:20Z drmeister: Does anyone recall someone writing a scheme interpreter for DWARF metadata? 2017-11-05T23:05:51Z sarkic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-05T23:05:53Z drmeister: Someone on #lisp told me about it a loooong time ago and it had a web page that I was digging through. I've never been able to find it again. 2017-11-05T23:06:02Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:07:31Z sarkic joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:07:42Z slyrus_: any of the common-lisp.net maintainers around? 2017-11-05T23:08:12Z sarkic quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-05T23:08:46Z sarkic joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:08:57Z Shinmera: drmeister: Is it this? http://wingolog.org/archives/2012/06/19/dltool-mines-dwarf 2017-11-05T23:09:44Z Shinmera: drmeister: Alternatively, https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?from=2000-11-05T18%3A06%3A47&to=2017-11-06T06%3A06%3A47&search=DWARF&by# 2017-11-05T23:16:30Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:21:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T23:21:41Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:22:13Z MochaLoca quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-11-05T23:22:48Z drmeister: I think the top one was it - how did you find that? 2017-11-05T23:22:58Z Shinmera: with the bottom link 2017-11-05T23:23:07Z MochaLoca joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:23:09Z MochaLoca quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-11-05T23:24:07Z drmeister: Nov 2000???? I'm sure I haven't been at this that long. 2017-11-05T23:24:18Z drmeister: If I have - then I seriously need to re-evaluate my life choices. 2017-11-05T23:24:33Z Shinmera: That's just the start date for the search. 2017-11-05T23:24:43Z Shinmera: hover over the timestamps to get the full date. 2017-11-05T23:24:55Z drmeister: Oh thank god 2017-11-05T23:26:01Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:26:41Z drmeister: I've been generating DWARF info for three years and still can't read it. Sad. 2017-11-05T23:28:22Z blasut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T23:30:22Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-05T23:31:27Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T23:32:04Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T23:33:51Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-05T23:34:49Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:36:21Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T23:37:22Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:38:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:39:56Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:45:08Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-05T23:49:21Z luminous_arbour quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-05T23:50:10Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-05T23:51:42Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:52:57Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-05T23:54:35Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-11-05T23:54:58Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:02:23Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:02:52Z drmeister: I found this: https://github.com/samth/dltool 2017-11-06T00:06:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-06T00:10:31Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:10:58Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:14:10Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:14:53Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:17:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-06T00:27:26Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:28:54Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:32:14Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-06T00:32:36Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:36:00Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T00:39:49Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T00:43:39Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:51:34Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T00:52:01Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-06T00:58:23Z rumbler31 quit 2017-11-06T00:58:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-06T01:01:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:03:25Z stapler quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-11-06T01:03:28Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T01:04:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:05:15Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:05:26Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T01:09:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T01:09:45Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-06T01:13:31Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:15:29Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:16:03Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:18:30Z kruhft joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:24:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:29:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T01:33:18Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-06T01:33:53Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T01:35:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:35:52Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:37:38Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:38:41Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T01:39:57Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:44:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:44:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T01:45:07Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-11-06T01:52:10Z ebrasca` is now known as ebrasca 2017-11-06T01:58:07Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-06T02:00:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T02:01:57Z xfwduke quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-06T02:06:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T02:13:35Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-11-06T02:13:53Z trebor_dki quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-06T02:18:27Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T02:21:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T02:22:05Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-11-06T02:23:24Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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By doing it that way, the maintainer has more information about the code faster, because the operator is more specific. 2017-11-06T03:43:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T03:45:50Z emaczen: morning beach 2017-11-06T03:47:26Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T03:48:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T03:52:22Z SaganMan: beach: is using loop inside loop a bad practice? 2017-11-06T03:52:27Z kruhft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T03:52:31Z beach: No. 2017-11-06T03:53:18Z SaganMan: I've been using loops/iterations a lot lately instead of using functional programming 2017-11-06T03:53:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T03:53:26Z beach: Good. 2017-11-06T03:53:33Z SaganMan: really? 2017-11-06T03:53:41Z beach: Yes. 2017-11-06T03:53:58Z beach: Every paradigm has its applications, of course. 2017-11-06T03:54:13Z beach: In Common Lisp, I find that I mostly use functional programming in macro expanders. 2017-11-06T03:54:32Z SaganMan: I see 2017-11-06T03:55:06Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-11-06T03:55:07Z SaganMan: I should see more lisp code in github to see how people usually write the code 2017-11-06T03:56:09Z beach: I am fairly proud of this one: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer 2017-11-06T03:56:33Z beach: It uses CLOS a lot. It comes with tests. And it has documentation. 2017-11-06T03:56:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T03:57:34Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-06T03:58:01Z SaganMan: ohhh 2017-11-06T04:01:25Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:01:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:01:42Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:02:19Z SaganMan: nice 2017-11-06T04:04:18Z beach: SaganMan: Modern Common Lisp code uses CLOS a lot because if the flexibility that it buys you. Perhaps people who want to use functional programming as the main paradigm for their application prefer to use a purely functional language. Just guessing of course. 2017-11-06T04:07:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:12:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:15:26Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:16:40Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:17:03Z Jen is now known as Guest97891 2017-11-06T04:17:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:20:17Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:22:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:22:29Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-06T04:27:48Z luminous_arbour quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T04:29:27Z LiamH1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-06T04:30:26Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-06T04:31:00Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:34:47Z Guest97891 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:37:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:42:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:50:03Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:51:45Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:52:16Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:53:32Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:57:29Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:58:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T04:58:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T04:58:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:02:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T05:04:59Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:05:30Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T05:08:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:12:35Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:12:59Z emaczen: what happened to paste.lisp.org 2017-11-06T05:13:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T05:14:18Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T05:14:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:15:49Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T05:16:12Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:18:16Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T05:18:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:21:31Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T05:22:31Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-06T05:22:50Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:23:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T05:24:45Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:24:47Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T05:26:16Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T05:32:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:34:05Z SaganMan: I see 2017-11-06T05:34:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:35:33Z SaganMan: I'm quite new to object oriented programming. The last time I did programming was during my engineering years and it was embedded programming. Mostly atmega and at91sam. 2017-11-06T05:35:42Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T05:36:32Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:36:36Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:37:04Z beach: You are lucky. Then you don't have the habit of class-based single-dispatch object-oriented programming as most languages provide. You can now start afresh with generic-function-based multiple-dispatch object-oriented programming like CLOS supports. 2017-11-06T05:37:40Z emaczen: what happened to paste.lisp.org? 2017-11-06T05:37:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T05:38:02Z pjb: emaczen: use http://springe.us 2017-11-06T05:38:11Z pjb: s/i/u/ 2017-11-06T05:38:13Z beach: emaczen: You already asked that. If nobody answered, that means nobody knows. 2017-11-06T05:39:00Z SaganMan: beach: haha, I see. Btw have you done any project euler problems? 2017-11-06T05:39:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:39:12Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-06T05:39:29Z beach: SaganMan: Not that I can remember. I am too busy working on real applications. 2017-11-06T05:40:01Z SaganMan: ah, ok. check them out when you've time. They're good puzzles. 2017-11-06T05:40:11Z beach: I won't have time. 2017-11-06T05:40:41Z SaganMan: oh 2017-11-06T05:40:48Z emaczen: pjb: that link for springe.us doesn't work? 2017-11-06T05:41:13Z pjb: it's sprunge.us, sorry. 2017-11-06T05:41:41Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T05:43:02Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:43:52Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T05:43:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T05:44:19Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:45:31Z emaczen: pjb: Where does sprunge paste too? 2017-11-06T05:46:00Z pjb: it gives you an url and you copy-and-paste it yourself to the channel, like with lisppaste of late. 2017-11-06T05:48:36Z emaczen: http://sprunge.us/WVMH -- the problem is some memory leak 2017-11-06T05:49:03Z emaczen: I actually got an error from OSX saying "out of application memory" 2017-11-06T05:49:19Z emaczen: this program will run fine for like 20 minutes before it starts lagging 2017-11-06T05:50:17Z emaczen: I think I have removed all obvious memory allocations and am very unsure why this program is using up so much memory 2017-11-06T05:51:16Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:52:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T05:52:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:58:30Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T05:58:55Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-06T05:59:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:04:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:05:59Z bw1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:06:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:07:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:08:38Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:09:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:11:47Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T06:13:29Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:14:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:14:37Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T06:14:37Z drot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T06:14:37Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:14:38Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2017-11-06T06:14:46Z drot_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:14:57Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:16:56Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:18:02Z stux|RC quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:18:02Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:19:26Z jurov joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:19:46Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:20:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:24:18Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:24:45Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:24:54Z asarch: One stupid question: how can I create the single cons cell with the symbol LIPS?: LISP<---[car|cdr]--->NIL 2017-11-06T06:25:02Z aoh__ is now known as aoh 2017-11-06T06:25:03Z asarch: *the symbol LISP 2017-11-06T06:25:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:25:11Z asarch: (LISP)? 2017-11-06T06:25:14Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2017-11-06T06:25:14Z aoh joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:26:13Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:26:33Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:29:51Z whoman: well 2017-11-06T06:29:57Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:30:11Z asarch: You can't have an isolated cons cell with a symbol in its car pointer, right? 2017-11-06T06:30:12Z whoman: pretty much 2017-11-06T06:30:28Z asarch: You need to store that cons cell in a variable 2017-11-06T06:30:30Z whoman: it ends up quoted as (lisp . nil) i suppose 2017-11-06T06:30:39Z whoman: (cdr '(lisp)) = nil , car = lisp 2017-11-06T06:31:11Z whoman: try (eq (cons 'lisp nil) '(lisp)) 2017-11-06T06:31:23Z whoman: or eql, not sure 2017-11-06T06:31:35Z asarch: Are symbols strings in Lisp? 2017-11-06T06:31:43Z whoman: no 2017-11-06T06:31:46Z Lord_Nightmare quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:46Z schoppenhauer quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:46Z SuperJen quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:46Z nowhereman quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:46Z ninegrid_ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:46Z vydd_ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:46Z scymtym quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z dvdmuckle quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z ryan_vw quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z froggey quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z epony quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z pfdietz quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z __main__ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z antismap quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:47Z bkst quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:48Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:48Z zymurgy quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:48Z fouric quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:48Z DGASAU quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:48Z lnostdal_ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:48Z uint quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:49Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:49Z vsync quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:49Z internet_cafe quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-06T06:31:49Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2017-11-06T06:32:11Z whoman: (not (eql (type-of 'test) (type-of "test"))) => t 2017-11-06T06:32:20Z whoman: smth like that 2017-11-06T06:32:47Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:32:50Z whoman: one would use gensym/intern/unintern and others to go symbol<->string 2017-11-06T06:33:46Z AntiSpamMeta2 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:33:46Z AntiSpamMeta is now known as Guest82165 2017-11-06T06:33:46Z Guest82165 quit (Killed (rajaniemi.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2017-11-06T06:33:46Z AntiSpamMeta2 is now known as AntiSpamMeta 2017-11-06T06:33:49Z asarch: So far I understand that, there are symbols, variables and strings 2017-11-06T06:33:50Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:34:19Z asarch: Each one of them has a different purpose, right? 2017-11-06T06:34:30Z whoman: well. symbols associated with a value can be called a 'variable' 2017-11-06T06:34:49Z whoman: strings and symbols and numbers and lists are types of values 2017-11-06T06:35:16Z asarch takes notes... 2017-11-06T06:35:17Z whoman: using symbols to reference them. (some call it, symbolic programming - symbols being the main/atomic/primitive/central type) 2017-11-06T06:35:55Z whoman: literally just lists (or tree) of symbols; it is almost too simple 2017-11-06T06:36:19Z luminous_arbour quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T06:36:42Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:37:09Z funnel joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:38:05Z asarch: I was rethinking my notes from the "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" book and then I wondered myself how could I create a single cons cell with the LISP symbol in its car pointer 2017-11-06T06:39:14Z whoman: yep, you've got it right 2017-11-06T06:39:36Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T06:39:36Z pjb: asarch: strings name symbols. symbols name variables. 2017-11-06T06:39:59Z pjb: But variables are not first class objects. 2017-11-06T06:40:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:40:30Z whoman: well, we type in "strings" to reference the symbols. 2017-11-06T06:40:37Z pjb: asarch: (cons symbol nil) is the way to do it. 2017-11-06T06:41:13Z pjb: asarch: for example: (let ((symbol 'foo)) (cons symbol nil)) #| --> (foo) |# 2017-11-06T06:41:52Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T06:41:54Z whoman: yeah there was a split. try (eq (cons 'lisp nil) '(lisp))) 2017-11-06T06:42:03Z pjb: whoman: nope. 2017-11-06T06:42:05Z pjb: use equal! 2017-11-06T06:42:15Z pjb: (equal (cons 'lisp nil) '(lisp)) #| --> t |# 2017-11-06T06:42:18Z whoman: sorry, just under that, there was: or eql, not sure 2017-11-06T06:42:28Z pjb: Neither eql, use equal! 2017-11-06T06:42:31Z whoman: ty i get them all dyslexic still 2017-11-06T06:42:38Z pjb: clhs equal 2017-11-06T06:42:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 2017-11-06T06:42:38Z whoman: yep. one of them. 2017-11-06T06:42:41Z pjb: learn something. 2017-11-06T06:42:53Z whoman: .... 2017-11-06T06:43:00Z whoman: ty i get them all dyslexic still 2017-11-06T06:43:04Z whoman: make fun of my glasses too ? 2017-11-06T06:43:11Z nika_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:43:37Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:43:40Z pjb: it's quite fundamental, if you don't get that, all your lisp programs will be wrong. 2017-11-06T06:43:49Z whoman: good thing to say to someone with learning disabled lmao. didnt think this would turn into some kind of lisp expert fight. back to work 2017-11-06T06:44:33Z whoman: well obviously one would have the sense to check what is the right eql. im just making us aware that i dont know which one is which off by heart. i am also quite dislexic and it is not easy. why do i have to elaborate on this if we are claiming to be so smart? ..... 2017-11-06T06:45:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T06:45:40Z asarch writes EVERYTHING (just in case)... 2017-11-06T06:45:43Z whoman: also, same reason i check my shoes before i put them on to make sure they are the right feet. but here i am saying its one of the shoes - have been quite a few lisps in my head the last month , apologies. lets move on 2017-11-06T06:46:03Z pjb: whoman: this is not #dislexic, this is #lisp. You may try #dislexic-lisper and see how it works confusing everything in that channel. But not here. 2017-11-06T06:46:43Z pjb: Each channel assumes some expectations. 2017-11-06T06:46:46Z whoman: haha. well it is also not #pedantic-lisper also. let's keep going. 2017-11-06T06:46:55Z whoman: no, each person 2017-11-06T06:47:13Z whoman: meanwhile, asarch is trying to learn as well. and he taught me something - i would like to continue there 2017-11-06T06:47:33Z asarch: ? 2017-11-06T06:49:50Z whoman: nothing here says which #lisp and what set of eq/eql/equal/eekwall goes on with which lisp. each to our own, i dont even know what lisp he is using nor would i assume it 2017-11-06T06:50:22Z whoman: also, already answered; good to see how some of us treat each other , especially the less privelaged 2017-11-06T06:50:28Z pjb: whoman: the /topic clearly indicate Common Lisp. There's only one Common Lisp to bind all! 2017-11-06T06:50:38Z whoman: ohh, fair enough 2017-11-06T06:50:40Z pjb: whoman: if you want random lisps, you go to ##lisp 2017-11-06T06:51:00Z whoman: also fair enough, didnt know about that channel 2017-11-06T06:51:15Z pjb: http://cliki.net/IRC 2017-11-06T06:51:41Z whoman: like double hashes help dyslexic lisping when we got ;; , ;;;, ;, ;;;;, etc ? 2017-11-06T06:51:43Z whoman: ~___~ 2017-11-06T06:52:08Z whoman: have some compassion! =) 2017-11-06T06:52:14Z pjb: I assume you could use emacs to help you out with those problems. 2017-11-06T06:52:38Z whoman: idk. i havent tried to run emacs in my irc. 2017-11-06T06:52:50Z pjb: eg. emacs can display sequences of characters in different ways automatically. 2017-11-06T06:53:01Z pjb: There are several irc client in emacs. 2017-11-06T06:53:12Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-06T06:54:33Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T06:54:39Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 246 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Is NEST still available via QL somewhere? 2017-11-06T08:01:30Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:01:33Z shka_: serapeum has nest 2017-11-06T08:02:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:02:56Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:03:00Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T08:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:06:51Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:08:46Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:10:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:13:21Z flip214: thanks 2017-11-06T08:16:34Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:18:58Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:20:10Z asarch: Is this normal?: https://pastebin.com/icCjD11B 2017-11-06T08:20:14Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T08:20:44Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:20:55Z Shinmera: yes 2017-11-06T08:21:15Z asarch: :-( 2017-11-06T08:21:18Z beach: asarch: A variable must be defined before it can be used. 2017-11-06T08:21:44Z beach: asarch: Either use LET or similar for lexical variables, or DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER for special ones. 2017-11-06T08:22:49Z asarch: I don't know if I broke something: 2017-11-06T08:22:51Z asarch: https://pastebin.com/NAwErBm3 2017-11-06T08:22:57Z beach: asarch: Furthermore, defining a variable with any of those, does not make it possible to call it as a function. For that, you need FLET or similar for local functions or DEFUN for global ones. 2017-11-06T08:23:24Z beach: asarch: You need to read a textbook on Common Lisp or look at the Common Lisp HyperSpec page for LET. 2017-11-06T08:23:26Z asarch: Oh... then the book is wrong :-) 2017-11-06T08:23:39Z asarch: I mean :-( 2017-11-06T08:23:39Z beach: What book is that? 2017-11-06T08:24:02Z asarch: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" 2017-11-06T08:24:23Z asarch: From David S. Touretzky 2017-11-06T08:24:34Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T08:24:36Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T08:24:39Z beach: I do not believe that that book has an example such as (let x 10). 2017-11-06T08:25:22Z beach: asarch: Can you show us the example from the book, please? 2017-11-06T08:25:45Z asarch: Sure 2017-11-06T08:26:03Z beach: The page number would be fine. 2017-11-06T08:26:33Z asarch: The printed page number: 139 2017-11-06T08:26:56Z asarch: Chapter 5 Variables and Side Effects 2017-11-06T08:27:19Z beach: I don't see a LET on that page. 2017-11-06T08:27:37Z asarch: That was SETF 2017-11-06T08:27:44Z beach: But you used LET. 2017-11-06T08:27:59Z beach: Nobody ever said that LET and SETF have the same syntax. 2017-11-06T08:28:05Z beach: You need to look at the syntax for LET. 2017-11-06T08:28:21Z beach: clhs let 2017-11-06T08:28:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 2017-11-06T08:29:07Z beach: asarch: In this case, you probably need DEFPARAMETER. 2017-11-06T08:29:22Z beach: Just write (defparameter x 10) and you will be fine. 2017-11-06T08:29:25Z beach: Then continue reading. 2017-11-06T08:29:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:30:20Z asarch: Actually, I'm having a mess with my notes, the example was: https://pastebin.com/1evbPwLv 2017-11-06T08:30:22Z asarch: Sorry 2017-11-06T08:30:35Z beach: The book *is* wrong though. There was a time when it was OK to use SETF or SETQ without first defining the variable. Nowadays, we are more strict about it. 2017-11-06T08:30:38Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T08:30:59Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T08:31:11Z asarch: There was only two functions: SETF and LET (with his "sister" LET*) 2017-11-06T08:31:25Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:31:43Z beach: asarch: LET is not a function. It is a special operator. And that example is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. 2017-11-06T08:31:59Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:32:07Z beach: asarch: In fact, SBCL is very friendly here, because it warns you that you never use the variable introduced by the LET. 2017-11-06T08:32:42Z asarch: Oh :-( 2017-11-06T08:32:47Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:33:03Z beach: Do you know any other programming languages? 2017-11-06T08:33:50Z asarch: C, C++, Pascal, Java and recently JavaScript (the reason of Lisp in my life) 2017-11-06T08:34:07Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:34:08Z beach: OK, then what you just did is (in C) sort of {int x = 10;} 2017-11-06T08:34:14Z beach: Then you never used X. 2017-11-06T08:34:14Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T08:34:34Z asarch: I see 2017-11-06T08:34:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:34:40Z beach: asarch: But, as I told you. Just replace SETF by DEFPARAMETER, then continue the exercise and continue reading. 2017-11-06T08:34:46Z asarch: Ok 2017-11-06T08:34:47Z asarch: I will 2017-11-06T08:34:53Z beach: Because you probably need a "global" variable here. 2017-11-06T08:35:23Z beach: And as I said, LET introduces lexical variables, just like {int x = 10; ...} in C. 2017-11-06T08:36:05Z asarch: And why SETF is wrong? 2017-11-06T08:36:16Z asarch: Is it the same case? 2017-11-06T08:36:58Z asarch: https://pastebin.com/icCjD11B 2017-11-06T08:37:35Z beach: asarch: Because it ASSIGNS TO a variable. But that variable must first be CREATED. That's the job of DEFPARAMETER. 2017-11-06T08:38:16Z beach: Imagine in C: int f () {x = 10;} Same problem. 2017-11-06T08:38:53Z asarch: Ok. In C jargon: how can I DECLARE a variable? 2017-11-06T08:39:05Z beach: I told you. Use DEFPARAMETER. 2017-11-06T08:39:07Z loke: asarch: Locally in a function? 2017-11-06T08:39:13Z beach: No, globally. 2017-11-06T08:39:30Z beach: loke: Read the logs, please. Otherwise, we'll spend the rest of our lives on this. 2017-11-06T08:39:32Z asarch: Both cases 2017-11-06T08:39:34Z loke: You declare local variables in C as well. 2017-11-06T08:39:48Z loke: beach: I did. 2017-11-06T08:41:16Z beach: asarch: You also need to read up on your C. There is a distinction between declaring and defining. What you want here is the equivalent of defining and that is done with DEFPARAMETER. 2017-11-06T08:41:25Z asarch: The boook says that every variable has a scope (as in C), but it doesn't say anything about to create the variable 2017-11-06T08:41:29Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:41:29Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T08:41:42Z beach: asarch: Again, I told you, the book is wrong. 2017-11-06T08:41:52Z asarch: :'-( 2017-11-06T08:42:08Z dmiles: teh book used to be right beach has said.. but nowadays things have changed 2017-11-06T08:42:08Z beach: asarch: Again, there was a time when SETF or SETQ would implicitly create the variable if it did not already exist. 2017-11-06T08:42:14Z asarch: What books should I use then? 2017-11-06T08:42:18Z asarch: *book 2017-11-06T08:42:20Z loke: asarch: PCL 2017-11-06T08:42:23Z loke: ,pcl 2017-11-06T08:42:25Z mfiano: page 418 2017-11-06T08:42:36Z beach: asarch: That book is fine. Just use DEFPARAMETER for top-level variables instead. 2017-11-06T08:42:42Z beach: asarch: It is not a big deal. 2017-11-06T08:43:29Z mfiano: "First, if your program uses any global variables, the compiler may issue a warning message saying that the variable was assumed to be SPECIAL. Special variables are explained in the Advanced Topics section. You can get rid of these warnings by declaring the variables with DEFVAR, 2017-11-06T08:43:31Z mfiano: DEFPARAMETER, or DEFCONSTANT. The declaration should occur early in the file, prior to any function that references those variables. You can also 2017-11-06T08:43:33Z mfiano: ignore the warnings if you choose." 2017-11-06T08:43:40Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:44:00Z beach: asarch: The Common Lisp HyperSpec says that using SETF on a variable that is not already created is undefined behavior. It used to be the case that almost all Common Lisp implementations defined the behavior to be that the variable was implicitly created. 2017-11-06T08:44:04Z mfiano: I dislike the way that book is written :/ 2017-11-06T08:44:35Z beach: asarch: But that's a bad idea for reasons of software engineering. A simple typo can go undetected, and waste lots of time for the developer. 2017-11-06T08:44:44Z asarch: Well, in your first day of C you learn to declare AND assign a value to a variable in just one line 2017-11-06T08:45:02Z beach: asarch: Therefore, nowadays Common Lisp implementations are stricter. 2017-11-06T08:45:21Z beach: asarch: That is exactly what DEFPARAMETER does. 2017-11-06T08:45:31Z beach: asarch: JUST USE IT INSTEAD, OK> 2017-11-06T08:45:34Z beach: OK? 2017-11-06T08:45:37Z asarch: Ok 2017-11-06T08:45:39Z asarch: I will 2017-11-06T08:45:49Z asarch: As a matter of fact, this is great 2017-11-06T08:45:54Z dmiles: DEFPARAMETER instead of setq ? 2017-11-06T08:46:01Z dmiles: (asking beach) 2017-11-06T08:46:06Z mfiano: asarch: I would urge you to read PCL before Gentle 2017-11-06T08:46:21Z beach: dmiles: For this particular case, yes. For page 139 of the book he is reading. 2017-11-06T08:46:22Z dmiles: (or instead of setf) 2017-11-06T08:46:53Z asarch: It is like when you know a new girl... (Lisp in this case) 2017-11-06T08:46:56Z mfiano: beach: The problem is that book is written in a way that doesn't explain special variable declarations until 300 pages later. 2017-11-06T08:47:11Z beach thinks it looks like we *are* going to spend the rest of our lives on this. 2017-11-06T08:47:36Z dmiles: beach: right on, for that example make sense 2017-11-06T08:47:54Z dmiles: makes* 2017-11-06T08:48:05Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:48:06Z asarch: Practical Common Lisp, I'll get you tomorrow morning! 2017-11-06T08:48:17Z beach: dmiles: I didn't feel like taking the entire discussion about lexical vs special variables at this point in the "course". 2017-11-06T08:48:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:48:49Z beach: No doubt we will anyway. So I'll stop now and let other continue the advice. 2017-11-06T08:49:31Z loke: asarch: If you hgave prior programming experience, PCL is defeinitely the better choice. 2017-11-06T08:49:37Z loke: It's also free online. 2017-11-06T08:49:58Z asarch: Yeah, I found this place: https://github.com/clojurians-org/lisp-ebook 2017-11-06T08:50:10Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T08:50:27Z asarch: Thank you guys 2017-11-06T08:50:31Z loke: asarch: No. Use this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2017-11-06T08:50:31Z mfiano: Gentle is not a very linear read, and makes simple topics quite obtuse due to the fact. 2017-11-06T08:50:34Z asarch: THANK YOU VERY MUCH :-) 2017-11-06T08:50:52Z dmiles understands :) 2017-11-06T08:51:13Z loke: Gentle is way too gentle. It's just frustrating to read. 2017-11-06T08:51:16Z beach: Wow that clojurians site contains protected material. Not good. 2017-11-06T08:51:44Z asarch: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ <- It is not complete. Its source code starts from chapter 3 2017-11-06T08:51:52Z mfiano: There are a plethora of repositories like that, and little is done about them. 2017-11-06T08:52:26Z loke: asarch: what do you mean? 2017-11-06T08:52:29Z dmiles: speaking of protected matrials, i jsut dumped all the doc strings out of sbcl and clisp to use in my freeware lisp.. i wonder if that is a no no 2017-11-06T08:52:51Z loke: dmiles: Probably OK for SBCL. Not so much for CLISP unless your code is GPL 2017-11-06T08:52:51Z asarch: I would like to have the PDF version to get the hard copy of the book 2017-11-06T08:53:02Z asarch: You know, to make your annotations on the pages 2017-11-06T08:53:25Z beach: dmiles: And you have to give credit, of course. Otherwise, you would be guilty of plagiarism. 2017-11-06T08:53:52Z dmiles: my goal was/is to stay lgpl .. so i probably have to review what i use from clips 2017-11-06T08:53:58Z dmiles: clisp* 2017-11-06T08:54:01Z loke: beach: Isn't large parts of SBCL in the public domain? (one may argue about which parts though :-) ) 2017-11-06T08:54:18Z beach: loke: You still can't pretend you are the author of something that you aren't. 2017-11-06T08:54:18Z loke: dmiles: Yeah. CLISP is GPL which can't be downgraded to LGPL. 2017-11-06T08:54:35Z loke: beach: I'd have to defer to a legal expert on that. 2017-11-06T08:54:47Z beach: loke: I can't publish a Shakespeare play in my name. 2017-11-06T08:55:13Z beach: dmiles: But it might be a bad idea anyway. The docstrings are (or should be) implementation specific. 2017-11-06T08:55:31Z loke: beach: I can't? 2017-11-06T08:55:42Z beach: dmiles: They should explain what the implementation does in cases where the Common Lisp HyperSpec mentions undefined behavior. 2017-11-06T08:55:48Z dmiles: oh iot wasnt CLISP it was ECL i grabbed 2017-11-06T08:55:59Z loke: I was pretty sure you can. Although again, I'd have to ask someone who actually knows copyright law about that. 2017-11-06T08:56:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-06T08:56:26Z solene: to concatenate strings, it is better to use (format nil "~a/~a" arg1 arg2) or (concatenate 'string arg1 "/" arg2") ? 2017-11-06T08:56:38Z dmiles: beach: yeah a few do explain that.. and i sorta using them as guidance as to my behaviour at least at this point 2017-11-06T08:56:54Z loke: solene: With a good compiler (like SBCL) they are equivalkent. 2017-11-06T08:56:59Z beach: dmiles: Can you say more about your implementation. 2017-11-06T08:57:06Z loke: solene: The compiler will convert the latter to the former. 2017-11-06T08:58:06Z loke: solene: But, there are other definitions of "better". IMHO, you should use whatever you feel makes for the clearest code. Even if there is a performance difference with your implementation, it's likely so small that no one will notice, and clearer code is always better. 2017-11-06T08:58:11Z asarch: The source code is for the examples and not for the source code of the book. D'oh! 2017-11-06T08:58:30Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T08:58:46Z solene: loke, thank for your answer 2017-11-06T08:58:51Z dmiles is back in 5 mintes.. dmiles loves getting chance to to talk about it :P fyi: sourcecode is here: well the sourcecode is here: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/tree/master/prolog/wam_cl 2017-11-06T09:01:33Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:01:36Z vydd_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T09:01:38Z takitus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T09:02:19Z elfmacs quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-06T09:02:42Z asarch: Anyway. Thank you guys 2017-11-06T09:02:50Z asarch: See you later. I'll get the book 2017-11-06T09:02:53Z asarch: Have a nice day :-) 2017-11-06T09:03:04Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T09:04:54Z dmiles: so what this lisp does is tranlates the code to prolog sourcecode and executes it at the repl 2017-11-06T09:05:46Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:06:03Z dmiles: and translates entire files .. this picks up freebies like memoization and GC etc whatever the host prolog system offers 2017-11-06T09:08:03Z dmiles: such as threading and things .. i implemented sort ofa defstruct system for prolog to do some OOish things and this is a good testing ground for that 2017-11-06T09:09:35Z beach: Thanks. 2017-11-06T09:09:50Z dmiles: if one scrolls 1/2 ways down (into the README file of that URL i gave one can see what the translation looks like 2017-11-06T09:09:56Z beach: I vaguely remember your talking about it in the past, but I had forgotten the details. 2017-11-06T09:11:18Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:12:00Z dmiles: also it is to show that anything (all the paradyms we teach in school that prolog is incapapble of) are readilly available 2017-11-06T09:12:08Z brendyn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-06T09:13:42Z dmiles: though to see how prolog can do something it is probably easier to prototype that something from lisp and then translate 2017-11-06T09:14:23Z akr joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:15:33Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:16:15Z dmiles: for example for 20 years we taught that lambda functions were not possible in prolog, now in the last 10 every prolog system has them (and it was at not cost to impl) it jsut took a while to propagte the methodology 2017-11-06T09:17:01Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T09:17:28Z dmiles: i *think* the compiled outputs of this impl will run somewhere between the speed of CLISP and SBCL 2017-11-06T09:17:54Z beach: Keep us informed. 2017-11-06T09:19:39Z dmiles: rough part is i have spent way more time (over the years) impling lisp than ever using them so will seem very bazzar some of my questions.. will probly use #clnoobs for those :P 2017-11-06T09:24:48Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T09:27:19Z dmiles: also i hope to recruite people that seem to know both languages 2017-11-06T09:27:44Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T09:30:06Z dmiles: i mostly need to use this system myself for some work related projects (to avoid porting things.. or to make porting easier) my goal is to not stop at "good enough for me" so why i hope others will want to help by contributing ideas and methodologies 2017-11-06T09:30:50Z dmiles: (not that i would stop there.. as it is only good enough when there isnt any genericly written common lisp apps that it cant run) 2017-11-06T09:33:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:34:26Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:34:26Z Guest67775 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:34:26Z happy_gnu[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:34:26Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:34:27Z astronavt[m] 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dirb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T09:38:26Z dmiles: ideas and methodologies = for example right now, i hope to build all control structures from COND,TAGBODY,BLOCK,LET (for example, LET* is done by making nesting LETs) .. i hope this is sane 2017-11-06T09:39:06Z beach: That's what I do in Cleavir. But it is non-trivial because declarations must be attributed to the right variable. 2017-11-06T09:39:45Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:40:29Z dmiles: can you give an exmaple when that become less trivial? 2017-11-06T09:40:46Z beach: Hold on... 2017-11-06T09:40:53Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:41:06Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T09:41:55Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T09:42:05Z beach: Maybe I am exaggerating the problem. 2017-11-06T09:42:31Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:42:44Z akr joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:42:46Z beach: You do have to do some kind of alpha renaming. 2017-11-06T09:43:14Z dmiles: that you wouldnot have to have done otherwise with LET? 2017-11-06T09:43:36Z beach: No, I don't think so. 2017-11-06T09:45:03Z beach: I can't think of good examples right now. I need to get back to you. 2017-11-06T09:45:30Z dmiles: no problem .. will be good to see 2017-11-06T09:47:10Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:47:58Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-06T09:48:07Z Cymew quit 2017-11-06T09:48:30Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:50:04Z dmiles: i sorta have a couple three impls of LET that i am experimenting with .. one uses a prolog array structure that names become indexes in that array.. but i feel like i over engineered it 2017-11-06T09:50:54Z dmiles: oh since most of the time i only writ ethe variables value once so i should just use a plain prolog variable 2017-11-06T09:51:26Z dmiles: ( i mean the lisp code only writes to the varaible once) 2017-11-06T09:52:52Z dmiles: (also, i cant say "most of the time" either.. it just often (when i am only doing one write to the variable .. i am unhappy i used it in the array) 2017-11-06T09:54:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:55:00Z nhandler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T09:56:31Z nhandler joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:57:06Z dmiles: ) then with all of that thought, why didnt i just use the prolog gvar system (trailed global namespaces) and just use renaming in the cases i use the trailed array 2017-11-06T09:58:47Z happy_gnu[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:47Z enick_9 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:48Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:48Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:48Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:48Z astronavt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:48Z enick_813 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:48Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:48Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:49Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:49Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:49Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:49Z dahs81[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:49Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:49Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:55Z dirb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T09:58:55Z trigt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:02:07Z dmiles: (meaning i will probably switch out how this is done ( more than once ) and the renaming will become important more than once.. i can see macro expansion (and other source transforms) is such a situation) 2017-11-06T10:04:30Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-11-06T10:06:42Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:08:11Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-06T10:10:04Z beach: GOT IT! :) 2017-11-06T10:10:19Z phoe_: beach: Got what? 2017-11-06T10:10:27Z beach: dmiles: (let* ((x "hello") (y (prog1 x (setq x 10)))) (declare (type integer x)) (list x y)) 2017-11-06T10:10:48Z beach: This example shows a type conflict for X. 2017-11-06T10:10:54Z beach: Right? 2017-11-06T10:11:32Z beach: dmiles: Rewrite it as nested LETs in a naive way: (let ((x "hello")) (let ((y (prog1 x (setq x 10)))) (declare (type integer x)) (list x y))) 2017-11-06T10:11:39Z beach: No type conflict anymore. 2017-11-06T10:12:23Z beach: So it is important to move the declaration to the LET in which X is bound. 2017-11-06T10:12:28Z dmiles: i see, right it doesnt solve a problem it hides a problem 2017-11-06T10:12:40Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T10:13:03Z salva joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:15:09Z dmiles: yes.. hrrm that is interesting/good example.. i see that should be an important testcase 2017-11-06T10:15:30Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T10:15:55Z beach: Yes, and it can become arbitrarily complicated with several DECLARE expressions, a subset of which mention X. 2017-11-06T10:16:47Z beach: So you have to take apart each DECLARE expression, then figure out which declaration goes with which variable, or with no variable (like OPTIMIZE), and rewrite accordingly. 2017-11-06T10:17:55Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:18:06Z dmiles: yeah like each DECLARE might be made a single declare 2017-11-06T10:18:21Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:18:22Z dmiles: (broken down into several) 2017-11-06T10:19:15Z phoe_: dmiles: I read (broken down into several) as a piece of Lisp code (: 2017-11-06T10:19:19Z beach: Exactly! 2017-11-06T10:20:00Z beach: That's why I use square brackets [like this] here instead for parenthetical remarks. 2017-11-06T10:23:05Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:25:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:25:04Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-06T10:25:17Z dmiles: the worse part of the impl is going to be user error catching 2017-11-06T10:25:19Z lrvy joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:25:47Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:26:52Z jackdaniel: I have a good solution for that. I try to make nobody use my software, then there is no user error between the keyboard and the chair ;) 2017-11-06T10:28:00Z beach: Clever! 2017-11-06T10:28:52Z dmiles: [in my case declares of type doesnt improve performance it might, at best, make some expectation of runtime type checking one day] 2017-11-06T10:30:02Z loke: dmiles: That must be a Clojue vector of words you just typed, yes? 2017-11-06T10:30:12Z dmiles: loke.. hehe 2017-11-06T10:30:21Z mfiano: I parsed that as 1 sentence 2017-11-06T10:31:00Z dmiles: oh its commas that are whitespace, not periods 2017-11-06T10:31:21Z loke: the commas are part of the symbols, aren't they? 2017-11-06T10:31:34Z loke: Clojure doesn't have CL-style backquoting AFAIK. 2017-11-06T10:31:44Z dmiles: commasm they are deleted as whitespace 2017-11-06T10:32:10Z dmiles: s/sm/s,/g 2017-11-06T10:34:38Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T10:36:27Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:38:42Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:40:46Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T10:41:08Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:48:19Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:48:23Z SaganMan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T10:48:43Z Ven is now known as Guest53102 2017-11-06T10:50:39Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:51:10Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-11-06T10:51:35Z loke: dmiles: That's just ridiculous 2017-11-06T10:51:43Z loke: (one of many ridiculous things about Clojure) 2017-11-06T10:52:55Z dmiles: i remember when Clojure was less than a couple months old.. i thought to myself.. jeeze this has the worse chances of ever being used 2017-11-06T10:54:14Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-06T11:02:38Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:03:58Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-11-06T11:04:58Z fikka: loke I'm hanging around in both #clojrue and #list because I want to lear neither Clojure or CL, and I havent decided yet. From clojurists I hear that its better than CL, form lispers it's the way around. Is this really a mtter of taste or what? 2017-11-06T11:05:18Z fikka: s/#list/#lisp/ 2017-11-06T11:06:09Z beach: fikka: There is no one-dimensional order from worst to best when it comes to programming languages. 2017-11-06T11:06:51Z beach: fikka: It depends personal preference, sure, but also on application domain, interoperability requirements, performance, etc. 2017-11-06T11:07:22Z fikka: beach: yeah ok, so that's why I cant really figure out which is the 'best' (in terms of being a lisp) 2017-11-06T11:07:56Z beach: fikka: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of what it means for a language to be "a Lisp". 2017-11-06T11:08:03Z fikka: yeah true 2017-11-06T11:08:26Z beach: fikka: If you tell us what your requirements are, we might be able to tell you whether Common Lisp is a good fit, and if so, which implementation to choose. 2017-11-06T11:08:53Z fikka: I think most of the newcomers are just searching for the lispy-feeling that PG and others guys are advocating 2017-11-06T11:09:00Z fikka: including me 2017-11-06T11:09:58Z fikka: beach: it really comes down to getting to know a lisp just for kicks for now. To see what's all of the fuss about 2017-11-06T11:12:30Z jackdaniel: people here are biased towards CL, so that's what they'll recommend 2017-11-06T11:13:16Z jackdaniel: one of the arguments is that Common Lisp is a descendant of LISP, while other dialects used today are more-or-less redone from scratch 2017-11-06T11:13:21Z jackdaniel: what is arguably a good thing 2017-11-06T11:13:56Z jackdaniel: but having all this history under your fingertips gives you this retro-chill ;-) 2017-11-06T11:14:01Z jackdaniel: s/this/that/ 2017-11-06T11:14:59Z Shinmera: fikka: If you don't really know what you need, just toss a coin. 2017-11-06T11:15:13Z dmiles: i didnt know clojure had macros [i googled to find out and found this URL ] https://clojure.org/reference/macros .. after seeing that now i think that if clojure lives long enough, it will do everyhting it can to become common lisp again 2017-11-06T11:15:25Z Shinmera: Nah 2017-11-06T11:15:48Z dmiles: [strike out "again"] 2017-11-06T11:16:18Z AndroUser2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T11:16:29Z lagagain joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:17:50Z fikka: jackdaniel: yeah I probably leaning towards CL for that romantic retro feeling, but at the same time clojure has all the java libs etc 2017-11-06T11:18:22Z dim launched his book ;-) --- but that's not about CL 2017-11-06T11:18:25Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:18:42Z fikka: actually my inital plan was to rush through some CL book, spend some time to grasp the basics then move over to clojure and try to secure a gig or something, try clojurescript as well etc 2017-11-06T11:18:45Z jackdaniel: fikka: for Java ecosystem you may try ABCL, which is Common Lisp compiling to JVM 2017-11-06T11:18:50Z dim: although I used CL to some degree in the writing, and there's even some CL code in the pages of the book ;-) 2017-11-06T11:18:52Z jackdaniel: dirb: congrats! 2017-11-06T11:19:04Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T11:19:11Z jackdaniel: minion: tell fikka about pcl 2017-11-06T11:19:16Z minion: fikka: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2017-11-06T11:19:18Z jackdaniel: dim: congrats! * 2017-11-06T11:19:22Z dmiles: with common lisp using jss, i dont think one has to go very far to exceed clojure 2017-11-06T11:19:23Z dim: thanks! 2017-11-06T11:19:24Z jackdaniel: dirb: sorry, wrong completion 2017-11-06T11:19:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:19:44Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-11-06T11:19:46Z fikka: jackdaniel: yeah thats the one I picked after lots of research :D thanks! 2017-11-06T11:20:02Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:20:19Z jackdaniel: heh 2017-11-06T11:21:59Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T11:22:01Z Guest53102 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-06T11:22:22Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:22:48Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:23:10Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:24:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:24:43Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:25:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:25:31Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:29:12Z mfiano: beach: I just spoke to Github support about those protected materials. I am shocked at their response. 2017-11-06T11:30:01Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:32:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:33:43Z borodust: hello 2017-11-06T11:34:47Z thebardian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:34:50Z asedeno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T11:35:50Z borodust: are there any way to make bounded input stream in CL over the other stream? maybe there's a library to make those? flexi-streams, unfortunately, ignores a bound for octet streams 2017-11-06T11:35:56Z asedeno joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:36:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:36:55Z jackdaniel: something like echo-stream? 2017-11-06T11:37:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:40:25Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:40:36Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:41:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:44:10Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:44:27Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:45:04Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-11-06T11:45:38Z borodust: mhm 2017-11-06T11:45:46Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-06T11:45:50Z pjb: borodust: what is an bounded input stream? 2017-11-06T11:46:07Z pjb: With gray streams, you can implement anything you want. 2017-11-06T11:46:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:46:50Z borodust: pjb: yeah, i can do almost anything i want, basically, not that i want to do something of that though ;p 2017-11-06T11:47:25Z pjb: So what's a bounded input stream? 2017-11-06T11:47:34Z borodust: pjb: like, i want to wrap another input stream, but allow for wrapper stream to read only able to read certain number of items 2017-11-06T11:48:06Z mfiano: I would use fast-io. It does just this 2017-11-06T11:48:12Z pjb: Yes, you will have to use gray streams to implement that. You could use my filter-stream though. 2017-11-06T11:48:25Z borodust: pjb: smth like :bound argument to flexi-stream https://github.com/edicl/flexi-streams/blob/master/stream.lisp#L204 2017-11-06T11:48:43Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/clext/filter-stream.lisp 2017-11-06T11:48:45Z borodust: mfiano: does it? its streams are pretty trivial 2017-11-06T11:49:10Z borodust: mfiano: also, does it allow to wrap another stream? 2017-11-06T11:49:12Z pjb: Or yes, flexi-stream :bound seem to already implement it. 2017-11-06T11:49:29Z borodust: pjb: yeah, but it doesn't work for octet streams as i mentioned above 2017-11-06T11:49:51Z mfiano: You would wrap the stream as a fast-io buffer, and use fast-io:fast-read-sequence on that bounded vector-backed buffer 2017-11-06T11:50:14Z borodust: mfiano: i need to wrap stream with other stream, there's no buffer between 2017-11-06T11:50:44Z mfiano: a fast-io buffer contains a stream and/or vector 2017-11-06T11:51:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T11:52:06Z borodust: mfiano: so i can wrap a stream with another stream and let the latter to throw/return eof after a certain bound? 2017-11-06T11:53:08Z mfiano: Let me code a bit to try something before I recommend further 2017-11-06T11:53:53Z borodust: i'm aware of fast-io capabilities but i was pretty sure it doesn't have those capabilities out of the box 2017-11-06T11:55:06Z pjb: seems to work perfectly on octet streams: (with-open-file (os "/dev/random" :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) (let ((fls (flexi-streams:make-flexi-stream os :bound 3)) (v (make-array 10 :initial-element nil))) (read-sequence v fls) v)) --> #(#\g #\j #\Latin_Small_Letter_A_With_Acute nil nil nil nil nil nil nil) 2017-11-06T11:55:22Z borodust: hmm 2017-11-06T11:55:31Z pjb: in ccl. 2017-11-06T11:55:39Z borodust: hmmmmmm 2017-11-06T11:56:30Z borodust: true, this case works for me too 2017-11-06T11:56:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T11:56:50Z borodust: maybe it is several layers of flexi streams that break things, lemme check 2017-11-06T11:57:59Z borodust: aha, i see 2017-11-06T11:58:20Z borodust: pjb: https://gist.github.com/borodust/553b379b4146be2b944eb3db1378dc7f 2017-11-06T11:58:35Z borodust: this breaks 2017-11-06T11:58:59Z borodust: while shouldn't, i expect 2017-11-06T11:59:26Z pjb: wfm: --> #(#\U+0095 #\Latin_Small_Letter_A_With_Grave #\U+0080 #\ACK #\Latin_Small_Letter_A_With_Diaeresis #\U+0085 #\2 #\Latin_Small_Letter_O_With_Diaeresis #\U+0093 #\u) 2017-11-06T11:59:39Z pjb: well, it read 10 bytes… 2017-11-06T11:59:40Z borodust: yeah, so it reads more than 3 2017-11-06T11:59:47Z borodust: unfortunately 2017-11-06T11:59:59Z pjb: yep, it's unfortunate. 2017-11-06T12:01:42Z pjb: stream-read-sequence flexi-input-stream is not limited by bound… 2017-11-06T12:01:42Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T12:01:56Z borodust: that's what i've read from source :) 2017-11-06T12:02:03Z borodust: and that's why i'm here with question 2017-11-06T12:03:06Z pjb: I would suggest a patch and a pull-request. 2017-11-06T12:03:27Z borodust: that would totally take a month to go thru :/ 2017-11-06T12:03:50Z borodust: incl. quicklisp release 2017-11-06T12:04:05Z pjb: Or you could write your own stream filter to do this kind of filtering. You could want to implement prefix, suffix, mid-substreams. 2017-11-06T12:04:19Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:04:32Z borodust: yeah, that's what i'm going to do, most likely, if no more options is available 2017-11-06T12:04:52Z pjb: dotted streams, where you extract non-green data, etc. 2017-11-06T12:05:07Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T12:05:43Z borodust: ah, you've meant filter-stream 2017-11-06T12:05:50Z borodust: i'll check it out 2017-11-06T12:06:06Z mfiano: Hmm, nevermind. I am being called away. I think pjb's idea is better anyway 2017-11-06T12:06:25Z borodust: mfiano: no probs 2017-11-06T12:06:47Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:06:52Z borodust: thanks for suggestion anyway 2017-11-06T12:06:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:07:29Z agspathis joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:12:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:12:29Z borodust: pjb: yeah, feels like i can reuse filter-stream, thanks! 2017-11-06T12:14:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:16:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T12:17:02Z borodust: pjb: are .clext is in the quicklisp main repo? 2017-11-06T12:17:07Z borodust: s/are/is/ 2017-11-06T12:17:13Z pjb: Not currently. 2017-11-06T12:17:20Z borodust: i see 2017-11-06T12:17:25Z borodust: mhm 2017-11-06T12:17:55Z pjb: I spent some time correcting the compilation for sbcl, but there are a lot of strange warnings, I hadn't time to complete it. 2017-11-06T12:24:56Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T12:25:16Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:26:48Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:27:30Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-06T12:27:49Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:30:00Z blasut_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-06T12:32:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:34:09Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T12:37:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T12:37:35Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T12:39:30Z creat joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:42:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:42:58Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:43:49Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:45:45Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:46:41Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-06T12:46:54Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T12:47:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T12:52:35Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T12:53:03Z lrvy quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-06T12:59:44Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:00:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:05:38Z ult joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:09:05Z Xach: who wants some quicklisp download stats!! 2017-11-06T13:09:10Z Xach: they are embloggened now. 2017-11-06T13:10:25Z dim: (parse error. embloggened? inside the blog?) 2017-11-06T13:11:19Z dim: ok not sure if it's cool to do that, but as I am super happy about releasing my book today (and there's actually some CL in there), I'll share the links: http://masteringpostgresql.com and http://tapoueh.org/blog/2017/11/mastering-postgresql-in-application-development-launches/ 2017-11-06T13:13:06Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:21:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T13:23:01Z dmh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T13:23:23Z zkat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T13:23:29Z mbrock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T13:23:39Z adulteratedjedi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T13:23:41Z aaronjensen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T13:23:43Z Meow-J quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T13:23:50Z zkat joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:24:08Z aaronjensen joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:24:09Z adulteratedjedi joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:24:09Z mbrock joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:24:27Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:24:48Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:26:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:27:37Z MatthewKrauss joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:28:00Z jackivan88 left #lisp 2017-11-06T13:28:59Z shifty779 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:29:16Z shifty779 quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-06T13:29:16Z shifty quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T13:29:16Z jdz: dim: Congratulations on job well done! 2017-11-06T13:29:22Z dim: thanks! 2017-11-06T13:29:35Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:30:05Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T13:30:17Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T13:32:37Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:37:06Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:39:20Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:41:26Z whyNOP joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:43:03Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:45:34Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-06T13:48:07Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:58:13Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-11-06T13:59:43Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T14:14:24Z lrvy joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:16:36Z Guest39255 is now known as kushal 2017-11-06T14:16:47Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-11-06T14:16:47Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:17:51Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:20:56Z lrvy quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-11-06T14:24:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T14:27:10Z phoe_: dim: congratulations! I will try to pick this up next month. 2017-11-06T14:27:12Z phoe_: Xach: give me! 2017-11-06T14:27:24Z Xach: blog.quicklisp.org has it 2017-11-06T14:27:41Z phoe_: yes, I am reading them now. 2017-11-06T14:28:06Z dim: phoe_: thanks 2017-11-06T14:31:59Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T14:33:11Z salva joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:33:52Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:34:22Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:34:31Z _akem is now known as akem 2017-11-06T14:35:21Z loke: Neat... 2017-11-06T14:35:33Z loke 's network connection was too fast for the Speedtest server. 2017-11-06T14:36:18Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:36:27Z jdz: loke: how fast is that? 2017-11-06T14:37:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T14:37:18Z jdz: Handles 1Gbit/s fine. 2017-11-06T14:38:11Z jdz: (I just tested, http://beta.speedtest.net/result/6769826411) 2017-11-06T14:38:27Z loke: jdz: Well, I ran a speedtest just now, and was surprised that it showed about half the expected speed (about 550 Mb/s)... Then, while downloading a game from Steam (Rocket League for Linux) that download was going a bit faster than that, so I ran a speedtest at the same time... The router told me the total speed was over 800 (which is closer to what I expect), and adding up the speedtest results with the speed from Steam also makes 2017-11-06T14:38:27Z loke: sense. 2017-11-06T14:38:42Z loke: The only interpretation of that is that the speedtest server was overloaded (I was using my own ISP's server) 2017-11-06T14:38:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T14:39:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:40:55Z loke: hmm... a bit weird though. EVen when testing against a different ISP I get the slow result. 2017-11-06T14:41:04Z loke: http://beta.speedtest.net/result/6769835085 2017-11-06T14:41:22Z jdz: ISP throttling connections? 2017-11-06T14:41:33Z jdz: But weird, yes. 2017-11-06T14:41:54Z loke: jdz: Hmm... you throttling single connections? 2017-11-06T14:42:05Z loke: If so, I should be able to open two speedtests at the same time... Let's see. 2017-11-06T14:43:59Z cromachina_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T14:44:00Z loke: Interesting... Must be an issue at my ISP... I ran two speedtests at the same time, both to my ISP and the total speed was around 500 (300+180, I think). 2017-11-06T14:44:17Z loke: Then I ran one against my ISP and one against another, and then I got 384+443 2017-11-06T14:44:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:44:33Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-06T14:44:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:45:07Z loke: Let's try two connections to singtel 2017-11-06T14:45:08Z jdz: loke: what about a single test against non-yourISP? 2017-11-06T14:45:47Z loke: Nope... 274+126 2017-11-06T14:46:13Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T14:46:15Z loke: 470 2017-11-06T14:46:45Z loke: I just tried again... 266... Man, it's all over the place. 2017-11-06T14:46:52Z loke: I don't think I can draw any conclusions at all. 2017-11-06T14:48:33Z oleo: speeds are specified for downloads, upload speeds are different, and besides they are all throttled mostly 2017-11-06T14:48:53Z loke: oleo: I've never had any issues before, and I've always consistently gotten 900+ 2017-11-06T14:48:55Z oleo: unless you pay enough 2017-11-06T14:49:04Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T14:49:07Z oleo: then someone is stealing yours 2017-11-06T14:49:22Z loke: this started today, after doing moving my switches around. Some cables have been replaced... Hmm... 2017-11-06T14:49:26Z visof quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T14:49:28Z loke: Could a bad cable cause this? 2017-11-06T14:49:44Z oleo: and the throttling could be initiated by load-balancer software from your ISP 2017-11-06T14:50:03Z oleo: which maybe tests for a while what you need on average.... 2017-11-06T14:50:11Z oleo: and then sets that as initial speed 2017-11-06T14:50:37Z oleo: and it can change during day too 2017-11-06T14:50:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:51:00Z jdz: loke: pretty sure it can be a cable problem. 2017-11-06T14:51:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:51:04Z oleo: depending on how much it can really provide to each, and if it is too busy or not 2017-11-06T14:52:32Z loke: jdz: Yeah, I'll try to replace some cables, and, as oleo hinted at, try again tomorrow. 2017-11-06T14:52:50Z loke: If it still doesn't work, it's time to call support. 2017-11-06T14:53:13Z jdz: loke: does your gateway box have speed testing function? 2017-11-06T14:54:35Z loke: well, it's an Ubquity edgerouter 2017-11-06T14:55:08Z loke: so I can run whatever I want on it, but the only commandline based speedtest implementation is one that is written in python. It isn't reliable at speeds higher than 100 Mb/s or so 2017-11-06T14:58:16Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-11-06T14:59:35Z jdz: And this is where I bring this discussion on-topic by suggesting writing said speedtest in Lisp. 2017-11-06T15:01:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:02:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-06T15:02:56Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:03:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T15:03:39Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:04:57Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-06T15:07:01Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T15:08:13Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T15:08:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:08:37Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:09:53Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:12:45Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:13:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T15:13:28Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-06T15:15:11Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:15:11Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-11-06T15:15:11Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:16:01Z beach: mfiano: What did they say at GitHub? 2017-11-06T15:16:38Z mfiano: beach: The gist of it is they do not care that the entire repository consists of nothing except non-free protected works, and that the repository was forked 41 times, not to mention however many forks the children down the hierarchy all have. The only thing they will do is respond to DMCA takedown requests submitted by all of the infringed upon copyright holders, and with 1 repository in question per request. 2017-11-06T15:18:55Z beach: dim: Congratulations! Very impressive! 2017-11-06T15:19:48Z beach: mfiano: Wow, that does sound unacceptable. 2017-11-06T15:20:54Z mfiano: Basically they are perfectly aware they are serving illegal content, but will do nothing unless a copyright holder challenges them. 2017-11-06T15:21:03Z eminhi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T15:21:06Z mfiano: Indeed. 2017-11-06T15:21:07Z Shinmera: It's the cheap option. 2017-11-06T15:22:26Z dmh joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:22:41Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:23:02Z dropshot joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:23:52Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:28:59Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:28:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:29:39Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:30:11Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T15:30:42Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T15:31:55Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:35:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T15:36:53Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:37:43Z dim: beach: thanks! 2017-11-06T15:38:15Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T15:38:29Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T15:41:34Z miatomi_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:44:27Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T15:50:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:57:10Z ym joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:57:56Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:58:02Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T15:59:44Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T15:59:47Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:00:41Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T16:01:45Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:02:20Z phoe_: mfiano: beach: what's the context? 2017-11-06T16:04:14Z phoe_: Oh, I see. 2017-11-06T16:04:48Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:05:05Z eudoxia: dim: congratulations on launching your book! 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Getting a copy asap. 2017-11-06T16:39:47Z luminous_arbour quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T16:41:37Z p_l: mfiano: from my limited understanding, if they do otherwise it might open them to legal troubles. For all the idiocy of DMCA, it provides a framework for action that helps shield the internet from too crazy attempts, like recent proposal put in front of EU/EC 2017-11-06T16:43:25Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:43:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T16:44:56Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:49:08Z manamex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T16:49:22Z manamex joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:49:25Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:52:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T16:54:37Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-06T16:56:41Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T16:57:29Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:00:56Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-06T17:01:01Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:01:10Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-06T17:01:54Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:02:13Z jmercouris: so let's say you guys have an Object, Car, that has a slot meant to be populated by Object Steering wheel 2017-11-06T17:02:18Z jmercouris: How do you normally name that slot? 2017-11-06T17:02:52Z jmercouris: so just to reiterate, Class Car, Class Steering Wheel, a Car instance has a slot for a steering wheel, what do you name that slot accessor? 2017-11-06T17:03:15Z jmercouris: I"m just looking for a good paradigm to follow 2017-11-06T17:03:24Z mfiano: I would name the slot %CAR, and the exported API accessor differently 2017-11-06T17:03:51Z beach: I use (%steering-wheel :initarg :steering-wheel :accessor steering-wheel) 2017-11-06T17:04:20Z jmercouris: beach: Okay that sounds like a good model, thank you 2017-11-06T17:04:33Z jmercouris: my only question then, is how do you differentiate between the accessor steering-wheel, and the actual class definition? 2017-11-06T17:04:42Z Shinmera: Huh? 2017-11-06T17:05:00Z Shinmera: classes are not functions. 2017-11-06T17:05:03Z jmercouris: Like obviously (Steering-Wheel x) will not work, but there is some lack of clarity 2017-11-06T17:05:13Z beach: That way, client code that has the bad taste of accessing the slot directly would have to type package-name::%steering-wheel, and there are two danger indicators here, namely :: and %. 2017-11-06T17:05:16Z jmercouris: I guess you just rely on the context of that code even thoug the name is the same/ 2017-11-06T17:05:18Z jmercouris: ?* 2017-11-06T17:05:22Z mfiano: a symbol is a symbol. context determines that difference 2017-11-06T17:05:29Z Shinmera: The places where class names are expected are limited and very clear. 2017-11-06T17:05:39Z Shinmera: Functions are easy to determine as well. 2017-11-06T17:05:43Z jmercouris: Yeah, sure they are, but it still creates some sort of mental burden on whoever is reading the code 2017-11-06T17:05:48Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, you use the same name for the class and the slot. 2017-11-06T17:05:52Z Shinmera: Only if you don't know CLOS 2017-11-06T17:06:03Z mfiano: s/CLOS/evaluation rules/ 2017-11-06T17:06:13Z jmercouris: Ok, K just wanted to confirm I fully understood 2017-11-06T17:06:22Z jmercouris: Thanks for the help everyone 2017-11-06T17:06:23Z Shinmera: Some people add brackets to class names, and I violently object to that. I actually outright refuse to ever work on a code base with that convention. 2017-11-06T17:06:39Z mfiano: agreed 2017-11-06T17:07:07Z beach: jmercouris: Punning is common. My favorite is from McCLIM: (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft) 2017-11-06T17:07:24Z jmercouris: Yeah, I don't really enjoy those kinds of situations lol :D 2017-11-06T17:07:37Z beach: Sorry to hear that. 2017-11-06T17:07:56Z jmercouris: I've found that I may not be the most skilled coder, but through just determination to right really simple code, I can manage big projects 2017-11-06T17:08:07Z jmercouris: write* lol, sorry 2017-11-06T17:08:20Z jmercouris: Ah, something something, sharpest tool in the toolshed 2017-11-06T17:09:27Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:09:28Z beach: jmercouris: It seems to me that you ought to have the ambition to become a skilled coder, in case you don't consider yourself one at the moment. No? 2017-11-06T17:09:53Z jmercouris: I am not a magical wizard of programming, my skill comes in the form of abstraction, and the ability to write extremely clear code 2017-11-06T17:09:54Z beach: jmercouris: Isn't that why you are asking about good practice? 2017-11-06T17:10:30Z beach: jmercouris: Whether code is clear or not depends on the experience of the person reading the code. 2017-11-06T17:10:32Z jmercouris: Yeah, that is indeed why I am asking, I am always trying to get better, but I also understand my strengths as a developer 2017-11-06T17:11:23Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, for sure, I'm not tailoring all of my code to the lowest common denominator, but I do make a great effort to avoid writing "clever" code, when I can instead write "clear" code 2017-11-06T17:11:39Z beach: jmercouris: If we were to write code for inexperienced people reading the code, at while level do we consider having simplified our code so much that everyone can understand it? And when we reach that level, the code will be truly unmaintainable. 2017-11-06T17:12:13Z jmercouris: beach: As with everything in life, it is important to strike a balance 2017-11-06T17:12:24Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:12:28Z beach: jmercouris: None of the examples you have been given here are obscure in any way. 2017-11-06T17:12:36Z mfiano: If you want to become better writing in a language, the best way is to write idiomatic code in that given language, perhaps by contributing to another project that is considered quality code. 2017-11-06T17:12:36Z Josh_2: Write it in Python if you want it to be readable by newbs 2017-11-06T17:12:48Z jmercouris: Josh_2: Yeah, nah 2017-11-06T17:12:55Z jmercouris: I am a python programmer, and not all of them are noobs 2017-11-06T17:13:11Z jmercouris: But one thing you'll learn if you write a lot of python code is how to write maintainable, quality code 2017-11-06T17:13:15Z Josh_2: It's pretty darn easy to read, let me see if I can find the meme 2017-11-06T17:13:33Z jmercouris: beach: I would argue that (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft) lacks some level of immediately clarity 2017-11-06T17:13:45Z jmercouris: It is not incomprehensible, but it requires more thinking than nomrla 2017-11-06T17:13:56Z jmercouris: s/nomrla/normal, sorry my hands are cold 2017-11-06T17:14:01Z beach: jmercouris: You would argue that? I am sorry to hear that. 2017-11-06T17:14:04Z mfiano: I don't think that to be true. 2017-11-06T17:14:09Z Josh_2: Is true, idk what that does jmercouris 2017-11-06T17:14:28Z jmercouris: I'm guessing the method grafts something onto a graft 2017-11-06T17:14:39Z jmercouris: but that's not the point here, it's still a little obtuse for a method name 2017-11-06T17:14:48Z beach: jmercouris: The example above would have been a lot worse if it were written (defmethod the-function-graft ((the-parameter-graft the-class-graft)) the-parameter-graft) 2017-11-06T17:15:06Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T17:15:22Z beach: jmercouris: The name is that of the generic function. It comes with a documentation. 2017-11-06T17:15:28Z Shinmera: The function returns the graft of an object. The graft of a graft is itself, hence this method. 2017-11-06T17:15:36Z beach: Exactly. 2017-11-06T17:15:41Z Shinmera: I don't even know MCCLIM 2017-11-06T17:15:56Z beach: And it is still crystal clear. 2017-11-06T17:15:56Z Josh_2: jmercouris: http://i.imgur.com/qMAzzUI.png 2017-11-06T17:16:00Z jmercouris: Alright, well, congratulations to all of you :D 2017-11-06T17:16:17Z jmercouris: Josh_2: lol yeah, I've seen that 2017-11-06T17:16:30Z sukaeto: don't really want to get involved, but since I'm reading the buffer: what that function did was clear to me after applying minimal effort to read it 2017-11-06T17:16:39Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:16:40Z beach: jmercouris: Seriously. All you are observing here is lack of experience with generic functions and classes on your part. You will get there. 2017-11-06T17:16:48Z Josh_2: I would ignore my input on CLOS related stuff. 2017-11-06T17:16:54Z Josh_2: I've not learned me CLOS yet 2017-11-06T17:17:26Z mfiano: The effort is so minimal, that it's intuitive without any real thought to anyone who has worked with CLOS before. 2017-11-06T17:17:29Z jmercouris: beach: Thanks, I'll give it time 2017-11-06T17:17:39Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-11-06T17:17:59Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:18:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T17:19:57Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T17:21:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:25:39Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:25:54Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-06T17:26:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:27:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T17:28:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T17:29:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:30:07Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:32:46Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T17:37:22Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:41:39Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T17:44:34Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T17:45:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T17:47:44Z akr left #lisp 2017-11-06T17:48:42Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T17:48:51Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-06T17:50:00Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-06T17:50:28Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-06T17:50:54Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:52:49Z malice` joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:53:03Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:53:18Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T17:54:08Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:54:51Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:55:53Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T17:58:34Z pjb: jmercouris: there's not a lot of thinking needed to graft a graft into a graft. 2017-11-06T17:59:23Z jmercouris: pjb: What about grafting a graft into a graft into a graft? 2017-11-06T17:59:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-06T17:59:59Z _death: (defmethod graft ((object graft)) object) may be more acceptable to you 2017-11-06T17:59:59Z Guest53864 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T18:00:13Z Ven is now known as Guest72122 2017-11-06T18:00:27Z pjb: not really, object is to generic a term. 2017-11-06T18:00:40Z jmercouris: _death: It is more clear to me actually 2017-11-06T18:01:02Z jmercouris: We just need a placehloder within the defmethod to refer to that instance 2017-11-06T18:01:04Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:01:05Z _death: pjb: the purpose of graft is to turn some object into a graft.. in the case of a graft object, it is the identity function 2017-11-06T18:01:32Z jmercouris: I am starting to think you guys enjoy these kinds of discussions :D 2017-11-06T18:01:36Z _death: s/turn some/map/ if you wish 2017-11-06T18:01:49Z pjb: then it's a grafter! 2017-11-06T18:02:09Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Try this for size: (labels(({(] &rest [)(apply([ ])[))([(])(elt(]())]))(](<)(do-external-symbols(]`:cl)(push`,]`,<))(sort <`string<`:key`string))(}(} {)({`688({`875({`398()"~{~A ~}~%"(]()))}(+`,{(*)})))({`381)({`816`2/9)))({`561()#'}`(874,948 7,6009 4862,370 10,12249)`(3,2 4,4 2,1 1,0))) 2017-11-06T18:02:20Z Shinmera: (credit goes to Fare) 2017-11-06T18:02:22Z _death: pjb: this is why I added the map remark.. to avoid this silly pedantry 2017-11-06T18:02:28Z Josh_2: What on earth.. 2017-11-06T18:02:42Z jmercouris: Shinmera: See, that's what I'm talking about 2017-11-06T18:02:50Z jmercouris: I'd like to see more of this kind of code in the lisp community 2017-11-06T18:02:52Z jmercouris: :P 2017-11-06T18:02:57Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T18:03:05Z Shinmera: If you don't want to figure it out on your own: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/188 2017-11-06T18:03:06Z Bicyclidine: if i run that are bad things going to happen to my hard drive 2017-11-06T18:03:12Z Shinmera: no 2017-11-06T18:03:18Z Shinmera: That'd be lame 2017-11-06T18:03:28Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:03:29Z Josh_2: On an unrelated note, where I am in Scotland, "graft" means to be chatting up someone 2017-11-06T18:03:37Z Josh_2: Actually that's a related note. 2017-11-06T18:04:35Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: You might wish to look at zones/jails 2017-11-06T18:04:56Z Bicyclidine: i was imagining trying to graft skin over an existing skin graft, which sounds pretty sad 2017-11-06T18:05:25Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: That is an unpleasant thought 2017-11-06T18:06:47Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:07:01Z _death: from not so long ago: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/678#678 2017-11-06T18:07:46Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-06T18:09:56Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:10:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T18:12:49Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T18:12:51Z jmercouris: Who owns the tymoon domain (Shinmera?), and what does tymoon mean? 2017-11-06T18:13:26Z Shinmera: I do. https://keybase.io/shinmera/sigchain#bc83204b965c13d01ca43c3bebfb48a94f704bbd9cac48eb542a6414d7f936b50f 2017-11-06T18:13:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:13:57Z Shinmera: It stands for the name of a comic I made when I was a bab. The comic is long gone (thank god) and the hosting remains. 2017-11-06T18:14:10Z thebardian quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T18:14:54Z jmercouris: But what does tymoon mean? 2017-11-06T18:15:04Z Shinmera: nothing, it's a name. 2017-11-06T18:15:15Z Shinmera: shinmera also means nothing, in case you're wondering. 2017-11-06T18:15:29Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Buttcode.com, lol!!! :D 2017-11-06T18:15:30Z Bicyclidine: typhoon but lunar 2017-11-06T18:19:43Z malice` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T18:20:13Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:21:12Z shka_: asarch: variables in lisp have scope 2017-11-06T18:21:16Z shka_: aaar ok 2017-11-06T18:27:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:27:28Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T18:28:29Z JordiGH joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:28:36Z JordiGH: Any of you know why paste.lisp.org died? 2017-11-06T18:28:43Z Shinmera: Spammers 2017-11-06T18:29:10Z eudoxia: _death: heh that's pretty cool, I totally forgot `+` had a special case for zero arguments 2017-11-06T18:29:22Z JordiGH: Just that? No links to kiddie porn or anything? 2017-11-06T18:29:32Z jmercouris: JordiGH: ??? 2017-11-06T18:29:36Z Shinmera: There may have been, I don't know 2017-11-06T18:29:47Z Shinmera: The reason I've heard in recent days is that it was just way overflooded with spam 2017-11-06T18:30:03Z Shinmera: So until they have a better lisppaste that has better spam protection, they don't want to put it back up. 2017-11-06T18:30:20Z JordiGH: I've wondered about that tactic. What's the point of spamming a pastebin if the pastebin doesn't publicly list pastes? 2017-11-06T18:30:23Z jmercouris: Why would someone spam a paste forum? 2017-11-06T18:30:28Z eudoxia: does plaster have a captcha or something? 2017-11-06T18:30:29Z JordiGH: Do the spammers then link to their spam from outside? 2017-11-06T18:30:35Z jmercouris: Maybe the idea is to host data? 2017-11-06T18:30:40Z Shinmera: eudoxia: V1 used to, V2 does not. yet. 2017-11-06T18:30:49Z eudoxia: I see 2017-11-06T18:31:05Z Shinmera: Anyway, you need a good captcha. 2017-11-06T18:31:08Z JordiGH: But the owner of paste.lisp.org doesn't hang out here, does she? 2017-11-06T18:31:11Z Shinmera: Lisppasted had one after all 2017-11-06T18:31:17Z Shinmera: JordiGH: Try #common-lisp.net 2017-11-06T18:31:33Z eudoxia: JordiGH: I bet spammers use paste services as globally-available service discovery for botnets 2017-11-06T18:31:57Z eudoxia: like the bots that communicate by leaving numbers-station-like comments in certain instagram pages' comment threads 2017-11-06T18:31:58Z JordiGH: eudoxia: From managing snippet service, they really do just spam viagra and the like. 2017-11-06T18:32:24Z JordiGH: Unless there's some kind of steganography going on. All I saw was dumb run-of-the-mill spam. 2017-11-06T18:33:17Z Shinmera: My plaster has some stray spams from people wanting you to contact them over ICQ apparently 2017-11-06T18:34:31Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:36:39Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T18:38:44Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:40:00Z __main__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T18:40:55Z rumbler31: It appears that paste.lisp.org still renders pastes if you have the original url, albeit real slowly right now 2017-11-06T18:41:19Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:44:05Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2017-11-06T18:47:44Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:51:13Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-11-06T18:53:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T18:58:14Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-06T18:58:50Z deba5e121 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:02:00Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T19:04:05Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:05:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:05:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:08:46Z ioops joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:10:24Z Posterdati: hi 2017-11-06T19:10:42Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:10:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:11:16Z Posterdati: please is there any css-lite user here? I need help creating css entry like aaa { bbb { ... } } using css-lite, thanks 2017-11-06T19:12:23Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:12:29Z Shinmera: If you're not already committed, consider LASS instead. https://github.com/Shinmera/LASS 2017-11-06T19:12:43Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T19:12:54Z eudoxia: lol I was about to link to lass too 2017-11-06T19:13:01Z Posterdati: Shinmera: :( I am 2017-11-06T19:13:09Z Shinmera: Can't help you, then 2017-11-06T19:13:19Z Posterdati: ok 2017-11-06T19:13:25Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:13:26Z Posterdati: is it quickloadable? 2017-11-06T19:13:33Z eudoxia: Lass is really nice and extensible, for example I wrote this extension for it: https://github.com/eudoxia0/lass-flexbox 2017-11-06T19:14:01Z Devon: Given a random N-dimensional array, how would you walk it? 2017-11-06T19:14:13Z Shinmera: Devon: row-major-aref, array-total-size 2017-11-06T19:14:33Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T19:14:39Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:14:42Z Devon: Lol, D-uh. 2017-11-06T19:14:53Z Devon: Thanks! 2017-11-06T19:15:31Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:16:59Z Posterdati: Shinmera: ok, I will use lass 2017-11-06T19:17:57Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:18:52Z manualcrank quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-06T19:19:59Z didi joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:20:14Z didi: So... Why can I use either () or '()? 2017-11-06T19:20:33Z didi left #lisp 2017-11-06T19:20:45Z didi joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:21:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:21:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:22:24Z ioops quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-06T19:22:25Z JordiGH: ,(eq () '()) 2017-11-06T19:22:28Z oleo: code or data 2017-11-06T19:22:37Z JordiGH: Damn, no bot. 2017-11-06T19:26:18Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:27:06Z Posterdati: Shinmera, ok I switched to lass 2017-11-06T19:27:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:27:16Z Posterdati: Shinmera, now? 2017-11-06T19:27:24Z Shinmera: What? 2017-11-06T19:28:31Z Posterdati: Shinmera, please help, I need to write a css rule like aaa { bbb { ... } } 2017-11-06T19:28:34Z Posterdati: :) 2017-11-06T19:29:08Z Shinmera: The docs include plenty of examples, including what you want to do. 2017-11-06T19:29:34Z Posterdati: ok, reading... 2017-11-06T19:30:23Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:31:01Z Bicyclidine: didi: because nil is self-evaluating, like 4 or "heck" 2017-11-06T19:31:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:32:00Z didi: Bicyclidine: Hum. So () evals to nil? 2017-11-06T19:32:43Z jmercouris: There is some mechanism for "aliasing", what is that called again? 2017-11-06T19:33:01Z didi: Coerce? 2017-11-06T19:33:02Z jmercouris: Or am I thinking of some coercion conversation we had? 2017-11-06T19:33:21Z eudoxia: didi: CL has four representations of the value `nil` 2017-11-06T19:33:23Z jmercouris: Right so is () coerced to nil? 2017-11-06T19:33:30Z Shinmera: () and NIL are the same thing 2017-11-06T19:33:36Z Shinmera: just different ways of writing it 2017-11-06T19:33:43Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:33:44Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2017-11-06T19:34:05Z oleo: and which are the others ? 2017-11-06T19:34:07Z didi: So writing '() is like writing 'nil? 2017-11-06T19:34:13Z Shinmera: Yes 2017-11-06T19:34:25Z didi: Hum. I've been writing '() this whole time... 2017-11-06T19:34:41Z eudoxia: (), nil, '(), 'nil 2017-11-06T19:34:47Z eudoxia: all eq to each other 2017-11-06T19:34:51Z oleo: ok 2017-11-06T19:35:26Z eudoxia: then there's `(values)`, but we can leave The Talk for another day... 2017-11-06T19:35:47Z didi: Writing (let ((empty-list ())) ...) feels weird. 2017-11-06T19:36:04Z Shinmera: eudoxia: There's an infinite amount of forms that evaluate to NIL 2017-11-06T19:36:08Z jmercouris: What is the mechanism that makes () and nil the same value? 2017-11-06T19:36:32Z Shinmera: The reader? 2017-11-06T19:36:36Z eudoxia: Shinmera: well, sure, but I meant like immediate syntactic representations. though I guess there's isn't a principled distinction because of #. 2017-11-06T19:36:41Z oleo: (symbolp nil) -> t, (atom nil) -> t, (listp nil) -> t 2017-11-06T19:36:50Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Ok, got it, thx 2017-11-06T19:37:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:37:55Z eudoxia: it's definitely at read time, because 'nil doesn't behave like any other symbol. e.g, you can't setf the symbol-value of nil 2017-11-06T19:38:07Z eudoxia: (setf (symbol-value 'nil) 1) => funny error 2017-11-06T19:38:58Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Note that () and NIL /are/ the same value. It'd be more accurate to say that the reader parses the strings "NIL" and "()" to the symbol NIL 2017-11-06T19:40:05Z jmercouris: So it's ultimately some sort of alias, or conditional assignment in the reader? 2017-11-06T19:40:07Z JordiGH left #lisp 2017-11-06T19:40:30Z Shinmera: It's CL's convention that the empty list and NIL are the same thing. 2017-11-06T19:40:31Z eudoxia: yes 2017-11-06T19:40:35Z Shinmera: So () has to read to NIL. 2017-11-06T19:41:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:42:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:44:31Z Bicyclidine: eudoxia: it's just a constant. 2017-11-06T19:45:21Z eudoxia: but it's a special-case constant 2017-11-06T19:45:46Z aeth: New slime message? "Connected. Are we consing yet?" 2017-11-06T19:46:00Z antoszka: I think it's old. 2017-11-06T19:46:06Z aeth: Hmm, for some definition of "new". https://github.com/slime/slime/commit/87778b3314d97a6c608178b13bc63e4e2a1fdb79 2017-11-06T19:46:23Z aeth: Just took me this long to (1) get the update and (2) notice it 2017-11-06T19:46:32Z Bicyclidine: nothing about the binding is inherently special, though the system might put it in primitively for its own convenience 2017-11-06T19:46:55Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:47:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:49:08Z d4ryus3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-06T19:51:39Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:52:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T19:52:52Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T19:54:05Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T19:54:59Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:56:12Z dropshot left #lisp 2017-11-06T19:56:54Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:57:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T19:58:46Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:01:12Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T20:01:47Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:02:32Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:02:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:03:11Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:03:22Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:06:08Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:06:10Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:09:43Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:10:12Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:10:12Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:10:12Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:12:06Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:12:47Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:13:04Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:13:06Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-06T20:14:45Z l04m33[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:14:45Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:06Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:06Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:07Z CharlieBrown quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:07Z happy_gnu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:09Z equalunique[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:14Z enick_813 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:22Z enick_9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:28Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:31Z trigt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:31Z dahs81[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:35Z dirb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:47Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:15:58Z astronavt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:18:19Z Younder joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:18:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:18:27Z Guest72122 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:20:36Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:20:38Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T20:20:56Z misv joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:21:00Z Ven is now known as Guest66292 2017-11-06T20:22:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:23:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:25:40Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:27:52Z emaczen: http://sprunge.us/WVMH -- I keep getting an out of application memory notification from OSX 2017-11-06T20:28:15Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T20:28:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:28:55Z emaczen: All I am doing is calling the function #'display-raw-pixels indefinitely in a loop and I can't see where a possible memory-leak or excessive memory allocation is happening... 2017-11-06T20:31:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:31:20Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-06T20:31:40Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:32:17Z Baggers left #lisp 2017-11-06T20:33:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:35:01Z mfiano: Sounds like you are working with foreign libraries and not cleaning up properly. 2017-11-06T20:38:43Z emaczen: mfiano: the only foreign piece I am using here is CCL's cocoa integration... 2017-11-06T20:38:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:39:15Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:39:25Z emaczen: mfiano: does anything jump out at you that I should look at more carefully? 2017-11-06T20:40:51Z JenElizabeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T20:41:31Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:42:24Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:44:52Z manamex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T20:45:17Z shka_: emaczen: what does #/alloc do? 2017-11-06T20:45:53Z emaczen: shka_: It allocates memory for an objective-c object 2017-11-06T20:45:59Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:46:08Z shka_: and it gets cleaned up automagicly? 2017-11-06T20:46:51Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T20:47:02Z emaczen: shka_: I'm not reallocating 2017-11-06T20:47:28Z shka_: right 2017-11-06T20:47:37Z emaczen: shka_: the call to #/alloc only occurs once in the initialize-instance :after method right? 2017-11-06T20:47:45Z shka_: yes 2017-11-06T20:48:15Z Shinmera: Still need to make sure the data gets cleaned when your object is GCd 2017-11-06T20:48:27Z shka_: yeah, that's true 2017-11-06T20:48:38Z shka_: i don't know if CCL handles this on it's own 2017-11-06T20:48:40Z shka_: it may 2017-11-06T20:48:42Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:50:07Z shka_: emaczen: does CCL has some extension to track memory allocations? 2017-11-06T20:50:45Z emaczen: shka_: Not that I know of. 2017-11-06T20:50:53Z aeth: I couldn't find any last time this conversation came up 2017-11-06T20:50:55Z shka_: hmm, let me just check manual 2017-11-06T20:51:03Z emaczen: shka_: the manual is outdated 2017-11-06T20:51:11Z shka_: better then nothing 2017-11-06T20:51:28Z emaczen: shka_: They don't ship the program anymore with OSX 2017-11-06T20:51:49Z emaczen: Or they merged it into this program called "Instruments" and there is no way to preseve lisp symbols 2017-11-06T20:52:24Z emaczen: I'll ask in CCL about the garbage collection 2017-11-06T20:52:44Z shka_: perhaps this is the way to go 2017-11-06T20:52:47Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:52:54Z shka_: sorry, i don't think i can help you 2017-11-06T20:53:03Z shka_: i don't see anything obviously wrong in the code 2017-11-06T20:54:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:54:12Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-06T20:56:21Z deba5e121 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:56:44Z emaczen: shka_: Yeah it is tough and I don't see anything wrong in my realm of code... 2017-11-06T20:58:50Z eminhi quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-06T20:59:32Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:09:25Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T21:16:07Z Murii quit (Quit: Byee.) 2017-11-06T21:18:47Z p_l: If OSX dtrace support wasn't gimped, it would be possible to add CCL support directly... :/ 2017-11-06T21:19:11Z shka_: p_l: gimped? 2017-11-06T21:19:20Z shka_: what does that mean 2017-11-06T21:19:20Z emaczen: p_l: yeah gimped? 2017-11-06T21:19:35Z p_l: intentionally broken/limited 2017-11-06T21:19:50Z shka_: new word 2017-11-06T21:20:02Z shka_: is that neologism based on gimp? 2017-11-06T21:20:04Z emaczen: p_l: how do you know it was intentionally broken? 2017-11-06T21:20:39Z p_l: emaczen: because the codebase they used has the features but they are intentionally disabled in OSX? (and, iirc, worked in some early betas) 2017-11-06T21:20:56Z p_l: (and the codebase was opensource) 2017-11-06T21:21:14Z emaczen: p_l: do you know why they disabled them? 2017-11-06T21:21:53Z p_l: No and we will probably never know 2017-11-06T21:22:31Z p_l: it's not security because the parts involved run in user context and aren't security problem on Solaris/Illumos or FreeBSD 2017-11-06T21:23:14Z Bicyclidine: you can use dtrace, but you have to disable the annoying thing 2017-11-06T21:23:24Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:24:03Z p_l: You can't use ustack helpers or similar parts of dtrace, though 2017-11-06T21:24:43Z p_l: Which is why node.js on OSX uses linux perf interface for reporting symbols instead of its native dtrace support, at least in work performed at my current $DAYJOB 2017-11-06T21:25:30Z p_l: with ustack helper you can make dtrace use CCL's internals to query the environment state when needed 2017-11-06T21:25:54Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T21:26:03Z emaczen: so what is the overall synopsis on what I can do here? 2017-11-06T21:26:43Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:27:01Z Shinmera: Install finalizers on your objects to make sure the foreign data gets freed. 2017-11-06T21:27:16Z Shinmera: Or alternatively devise your own memory freeing system that ensures no leaks are present. 2017-11-06T21:27:29Z emaczen: Shinmera: What are finalizers? 2017-11-06T21:27:40Z Shinmera: Functions that run when an object is GCd. 2017-11-06T21:27:43Z Guest66292 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-06T21:31:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T21:32:00Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T21:32:06Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:32:11Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-06T21:32:33Z Bicyclidine: it's a ccl class, so maybe it already handles that. or maybe not. that's something to check 2017-11-06T21:32:53Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: I'm reading something about threads and autorelease pools 2017-11-06T21:32:58Z Younder: Do any of you ever actually use finalizes? 2017-11-06T21:33:24Z emaczen: I kick off the indefinitely loop via #'bt:make-thread 2017-11-06T21:35:02Z emaczen: People were saying you will leak memory if you autorelease on a thread without a pool 2017-11-06T21:36:10Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T21:36:11Z Younder: If you use round robin scheduling.. 2017-11-06T21:36:27Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T21:37:06Z Shinmera: Younder: I do 2017-11-06T21:39:05Z Shinmera: A proper high-level wrapper around a foreign library will use finalizers to avoid burdening the user with manual memory management. 2017-11-06T21:41:12Z Younder: Well you can use lexical scope as in with-open-file or with-GC. That is usually what I want. 2017-11-06T21:41:56Z emaczen: anyone know about CCLs with-autorelease-pool 2017-11-06T21:44:28Z Shinmera: Younder: Burdening the user to be constrained to lexical scoping isn't exactly great. 2017-11-06T21:46:13Z Bicyclidine: that means not even having malloc/free 2017-11-06T21:47:09Z Shinmera: What do you mean? 2017-11-06T21:47:50Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:47:59Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:48:22Z Younder: Like in C++ you could have a new which is reclaimed when the variable goes out of scope and with special variables you can take the value with you up the call tree. 2017-11-06T21:49:39Z Shinmera: You're still burdening the user to think about memory and extent at all. 2017-11-06T21:52:14Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:58:04Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:58:48Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-11-06T21:59:05Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T21:59:15Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T21:59:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:00:46Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-06T22:05:17Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:06:12Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-11-06T22:07:31Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-11-06T22:07:34Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T22:07:54Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:12:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:12:51Z king_idiot left #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:18Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:18Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:18Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:18Z happy_gnu[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:18Z Guest19123 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z dahs81[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z astronavt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z Guest98041 joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:19Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:20Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:26Z trigt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:15:26Z dirb joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:17:58Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:18:14Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:22:30Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:22:55Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-06T22:24:08Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2017-11-06T22:26:49Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T22:27:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T22:29:42Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T22:35:01Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T22:35:54Z nonlinear quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T22:38:25Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-06T22:38:28Z emaczen: I finally figured it out 2017-11-06T22:38:51Z emaczen: It was some weird objective-c thing with autorelease-pools 2017-11-06T22:43:09Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-06T22:45:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T22:50:25Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:51:44Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:52:14Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:59:31Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-06T22:59:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-06T23:00:02Z thorondor[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:02Z l04m33[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:03Z CharlieBrown quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:03Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:03Z dirb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:03Z Guest19123 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:03Z happy_gnu[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z astronavt[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z hdurer[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z Guest98041 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z Jach[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z equalunique[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z hiq[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z dahs81[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:05Z trigt[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:00:16Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - 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I know structs generate copy-foo (and in general, copy-foo exists). For CLOS classes, I'm guessing there should just be methods copy and copy-into? (i.e. one conses, the other has a destination that it replaces, like map-into) 2017-11-07T01:55:57Z Bike: sounds fine to me 2017-11-07T01:56:12Z Bike: copying objects isn't something i do a lot 2017-11-07T01:56:40Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T01:59:31Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T02:02:15Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:12:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:16:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:18:39Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:22:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:25:44Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:27:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:32:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:33:41Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:37:22Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:37:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:42:21Z slyrus_: Bike: I like your compiler-macro stuff 2017-11-07T02:42:48Z Bike: cool 2017-11-07T02:42:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:43:44Z Bike: i haven't touched it in a while, but if people find it useful i can try to make improvements etc 2017-11-07T02:45:30Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:45:34Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-07T02:47:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:50:41Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:52:05Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T02:53:53Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:55:32Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:55:39Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-11-07T02:58:41Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T03:02:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:02:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:05:27Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T03:08:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T03:15:31Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:18:11Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:23:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:26:29Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T03:26:53Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:27:13Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:28:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T03:29:39Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:32:13Z turkja: struggling with cffi.... how do i read a regular Lisp vector from a memory location pointed by cffi mem-ref? 2017-11-07T03:33:07Z turkja: foreign-string-to-lisp wants to do some encoding, but this is just a binary blob i want to get 2017-11-07T03:33:12Z pillton: You use cffi:mem-aref to read it. 2017-11-07T03:33:27Z turkja: ah ok, put that in a loop/map? 2017-11-07T03:33:57Z Bike: but you'll still need encoding 2017-11-07T03:34:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:34:13Z Bike: strings are made of characters, after all, not integers mod 2^8 2017-11-07T03:34:15Z pillton: "This is just a binary blob". 2017-11-07T03:34:22Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T03:34:33Z Bike: i mean, if it's actually a string, which it sounded like to me 2017-11-07T03:34:50Z turkja: no, it's not a string as a lisp string 2017-11-07T03:35:07Z Bike: oh, nevermind me then. 2017-11-07T03:35:17Z turkja: i'll take a look at mem-aref, thanks pilton! 2017-11-07T03:35:29Z pillton: turkja: No problem. 2017-11-07T03:36:29Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:38:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T03:44:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:48:55Z SaganMan: Good Morning! 2017-11-07T03:48:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T03:50:00Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T03:50:19Z lemoinem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T03:50:45Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:51:04Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:54:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:57:36Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-07T03:59:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:04:11Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:06:02Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T04:06:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:08:31Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:11:38Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T04:14:15Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:14:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:17:23Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:19:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:21:58Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:22:23Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:24:09Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T04:25:15Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:26:05Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-07T04:26:29Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:29:03Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-11-07T04:29:46Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:34:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:35:51Z neoncontrails quit 2017-11-07T04:37:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:39:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:45:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:49:05Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:50:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T04:51:01Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:51:45Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:55:45Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:57:49Z neoncontrails quit 2017-11-07T04:59:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-07T04:59:13Z asarch: I decided to get the book of PCL, however, in Amazon I found several release dates (with different prices. The most up to date, the most expensive): 30/Abr/2005, 2014 1st ed, 6/Jun/2012, 2/Dic/2014, 2005-04-11 2017-11-07T04:59:33Z asarch: Which one of these should I get? 2017-11-07T05:01:08Z jackdaniel: I've read only a dead tree, so don't know how other editions are different 2017-11-07T05:02:26Z asarch: :-( 2017-11-07T05:02:30Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T05:03:32Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T05:05:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:06:48Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:07:25Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T05:09:12Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:09:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:16:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:20:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:22:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:22:41Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:22:52Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:23:32Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T05:26:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:30:32Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T05:31:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:35:27Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-07T05:36:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:37:59Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:40:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:43:58Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T05:44:04Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-07T05:44:22Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:46:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:48:08Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:48:25Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T05:48:58Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:50:03Z luminous_arbour quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T05:51:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T05:52:22Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:56:15Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T05:58:07Z dtornabene_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T05:58:28Z dtornabene_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T05:59:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T06:01:47Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-07T06:02:37Z dtornabene_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T06:03:10Z dtornabene_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T06:11:12Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T06:17:28Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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I don't know how this is named 2017-11-07T08:20:08Z solene: I would add a key / value when a feature is present 2017-11-07T08:23:46Z lieven: solene: clhs 2.4.8.17 2017-11-07T08:24:02Z Shinmera: clhs #+ 2017-11-07T08:24:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 2017-11-07T08:24:23Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-07T08:24:58Z lieven: and there's not a key/value pair, it's just the presence of a symbol in the list *FEATURES* 2017-11-07T08:25:09Z jackdaniel: searching stuff like that on l1sp.org is an option too: http://l1sp.org/search?q=%23%2B 2017-11-07T08:25:32Z solene: thx you ! 2017-11-07T08:26:11Z solene: lieven, no, I want to add a key/value pair if a value is present in *features*. I need :compression 5 when sb-core-compression is here 2017-11-07T08:27:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T08:29:23Z solene: I always forget about values function, that what I needed 2017-11-07T08:40:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T08:43:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T08:44:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T08:55:25Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-07T08:58:35Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T08:58:53Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T08:58:55Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:02:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:02:47Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T09:03:06Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T09:07:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:09:03Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:09:21Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T09:11:01Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T09:14:22Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T09:15:36Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:15:49Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:23:20Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:27:43Z SuperJen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T09:28:00Z Posterdati: Shinmera: used your lass :) seems to work ok :) thanks! 2017-11-07T09:28:28Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T09:30:34Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:33:35Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:33:37Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T09:33:51Z Shinmera: Glad to hear you got it working! 2017-11-07T09:35:09Z Shinmera: Is there a way to get slime to macroexpand macros defined through macrolet? 2017-11-07T09:35:55Z blasut quit 2017-11-07T09:37:01Z pjb: Select the macrolet form and M-x slime-macroexpand-all 2017-11-07T09:39:08Z Shinmera: That works, but makes the output rather hard to read since all other macros are expanded as well. 2017-11-07T09:39:27Z Shinmera: recursively, too 2017-11-07T09:41:26Z scymtym: Shinmera: i can recommend macrostep. i does interactive stepwise expansion and works for different kind of macros like global, local compiler macros 2017-11-07T09:43:48Z Shinmera: scymtym: Slime already has interactive stepwise expansion with C-c RET, which is what I use currently. I'll have a look at the macrostep contrib, though. 2017-11-07T09:46:25Z scymtym: Shinmera: right. macrostep is different though: it uses overlays to show the expansion in-place. macro forms in the expansion are highlighted and can be further expanded (or collapsed). and it handles macrolet 2017-11-07T09:46:38Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:47:20Z Shinmera: Ah, nice. 2017-11-07T09:49:52Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-07T09:51:45Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T09:54:27Z guicho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:00:02Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:02:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:03:40Z Posterdati: Shinmera, how can I compile this? @-webkit-keyframes slide { 0% { opacity: 0; -webkit-transform: translateY(70%); } 100% { opacity: 1; -webkit-transform: translateY(0%); } } 2017-11-07T10:04:41Z Posterdati: I did (lass:compile-and-write '(:-webkit-keyframes "slide" ...)) but it is wrong! 2017-11-07T10:04:49Z Posterdati: thanks for help 2017-11-07T10:05:26Z Shinmera: Well, it doesn't have support for that particular extension. 2017-11-07T10:05:38Z Shinmera: It does have a generic :transform though that expands to the browser extensions. 2017-11-07T10:06:03Z Shinmera: Oh wait 2017-11-07T10:06:22Z Shinmera: It does, nevermind 2017-11-07T10:06:37Z Posterdati: then how? :) 2017-11-07T10:07:05Z Posterdati: fix it! fix it! fix it! :) 2017-11-07T10:07:22Z Shinmera: Doing (:keyframes ((slide 0%) :opacity 0 :transform translateY 70%) ..) 2017-11-07T10:07:31Z Posterdati: ah nice 2017-11-07T10:07:32Z Shinmera: I think that should work. Can't try it myself right now. 2017-11-07T10:07:48Z Posterdati: thanks! Let's try it! 2017-11-07T10:08:59Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:09:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:11:01Z Posterdati: Shinmera: not a string designator (slide 0%) 2017-11-07T10:11:03Z guicho quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-11-07T10:11:20Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:13:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:14:05Z Shinmera: Oh, wait, should be: (:keyframes slide (0% ...)) 2017-11-07T10:14:11Z Shinmera: I misread things 2017-11-07T10:15:28Z spacepluk joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:15:56Z wiselord_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:19:12Z wiselord quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:20:13Z Posterdati: nice 2017-11-07T10:22:16Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-07T10:22:56Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:24:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:28:54Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T10:29:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:35:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:40:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:41:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:45:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:46:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:51:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:54:23Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:54:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-07T10:55:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T10:56:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:00:06Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:02:02Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:03:32Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T11:04:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T11:04:54Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T11:13:11Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:14:25Z guicho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-07T11:19:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:22:51Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:25:41Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:27:36Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:29:42Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T11:31:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:31:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-07T11:31:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:32:56Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-07T11:33:52Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T11:34:34Z manamex joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:36:24Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:36:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T11:40:17Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-07T11:43:40Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:44:54Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:46:32Z blasut quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T11:46:54Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-11-07T11:50:05Z thinkpad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T11:53:39Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T11:53:52Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T11:57:16Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T11:58:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T12:00:29Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-07T12:01:49Z thinkpad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T12:05:26Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - 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Now I want to switch it to SSL and when making the first request it shows an error asking for libeay32.dll. This sounds like a library from openssl but 32bit. Any idea what I can do? 2017-11-07T14:44:36Z phoe_: je4i: LispWorks support forum will help you the best with LW, I think.. 2017-11-07T14:44:56Z Shinmera: Huzzahh! https://github.com/Shirakumo/harmony/commit/3da8bb456197a7277366309a618c7b79d8310f91 2017-11-07T14:45:22Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T14:45:28Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:45:33Z phoe_: >oooooooooohhhhhhmygooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPAWdkapdkaOWd 2017-11-07T14:45:40Z phoe_: descriptive commit messages FTW 2017-11-07T14:45:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:45:55Z Shinmera: There's quite a few of those recently. https://github.com/Shirakumo/harmony/commits/master 2017-11-07T14:47:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:47:57Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:47:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:48:45Z loke: je4i: I solved the SSL problems by using HAproxy in front of my Hunchentoot. 2017-11-07T14:49:05Z loke: With haproxy one can also serve HTTP2, which Hunchentoot doesn't support. 2017-11-07T14:49:13Z Shinmera: je4i: I also recommend using a proxy in front to handle SSL connections instead. 2017-11-07T14:49:28Z solene: and to serves static files 2017-11-07T14:50:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T14:51:47Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:51:58Z je4i: There is already some service in front of my hunchentoot server, but they need some https answer from my webserver with an internal certificate which this company then exchanges against the real certificate. 2017-11-07T14:52:59Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T14:55:19Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-11-07T14:55:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:56:24Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:57:40Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-07T14:57:51Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T14:58:36Z loke: je4i: you can always use a haproxy anyway 2017-11-07T14:59:33Z phoe_: je4i: libeay32 can come in 64-bit variant. 2017-11-07T14:59:42Z phoe_: and yes, the naming of the library is wonderful. 2017-11-07T14:59:50Z phoe_: What exactly is the issue that you are getting? File not found? 2017-11-07T15:00:01Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:00:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:01:24Z phoe_: You can download the DLLs alone from https://slproweb.com/products/Win32OpenSSL.html or https://indy.fulgan.com/SSL/ and dynalink against those. 2017-11-07T15:01:51Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:02:48Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T15:04:00Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:05:03Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:06:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:07:27Z pfdietz quit 2017-11-07T15:10:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:12:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:14:45Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T15:16:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:18:26Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:18:32Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-07T15:18:39Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:19:20Z joast joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:21:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:24:44Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T15:25:06Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:25:55Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:26:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:31:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:33:04Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:33:43Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:36:53Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:37:08Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:41:57Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:42:20Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:43:33Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:44:49Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:46:51Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:46:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T15:50:44Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T15:52:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T15:52:26Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-11-07T15:56:02Z je4i quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:01:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:03:31Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:03:43Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:06:14Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T16:07:59Z akem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:11:13Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:12:05Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:13:54Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T16:14:16Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:14:59Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:21:29Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:24:28Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:24:46Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:25:48Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:32:43Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-07T16:32:57Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:41:35Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:43:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:44:52Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:47:53Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-07T16:48:05Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T16:50:11Z akovalen` joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:52:53Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:53:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:54:06Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-07T16:54:23Z akovalenko quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T16:55:52Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-07T16:57:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T17:01:42Z Devon: What's your favorite web scraper? 2017-11-07T17:02:52Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:04:47Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:05:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:06:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:08:43Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:09:36Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:09:58Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:10:16Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:11:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:11:53Z jmercouris: I know that using require is considered bad practice, but why? 2017-11-07T17:11:58Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:12:51Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:12:51Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T17:12:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:13:10Z Bike: cos what it does is pretty specific (in the one argument case, or however it works) 2017-11-07T17:14:16Z jmercouris: Bike: I'm not sure what you mean, could you rephrase that please? 2017-11-07T17:14:35Z Bike: er 2017-11-07T17:14:39Z Bike: implementation-specific, sorry 2017-11-07T17:15:04Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T17:15:06Z jmercouris: Ah, okay I see 2017-11-07T17:15:28Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:16:24Z beach: It is also deprecated. Not that we always care about that, though. 2017-11-07T17:17:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:17:39Z pjb: jmercouris: if you pass only one argument then the results will be implementation dependent. 2017-11-07T17:17:53Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T17:18:17Z pjb: jmercouris: however, if you pass 2 arguments, it will be good and conforming, doing the same thing everywhere. (assuming the pathname you pass works on all implementations, of course). 2017-11-07T17:19:22Z pjb: jmercouris: then require is a conditional load: it won't load the same module twice. For this, you have to add a (provide module) in the required file. 2017-11-07T17:20:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:21:48Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T17:22:11Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:22:49Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:29:09Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T17:31:04Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:31:45Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:32:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:33:28Z jmercouris: I see, I will then focus on converting this code, thank you everyone for the feedback 2017-11-07T17:34:52Z pjb: Basically, just define an asd system for it. Remove the require and provide forms. 2017-11-07T17:35:35Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:36:02Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:37:15Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:37:57Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:38:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:39:33Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:42:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:45:55Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-07T17:48:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:52:18Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T17:52:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T17:52:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:54:28Z jmercouris: pjb: Will do, thanks 2017-11-07T17:54:56Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:55:08Z Devon: Is there a library that makes REQUIRE use QUICKLOAD? 2017-11-07T17:55:57Z pjb: There are implementation specific hooks or extensions that do that. 2017-11-07T17:56:20Z pjb: But since it's implementation specific, I don't know what implementation does that. 2017-11-07T17:57:03Z Devon: That's why we have LIBRARIES. 2017-11-07T17:57:11Z pjb: Such as quicklisp :-) 2017-11-07T17:57:55Z Devon: Which is conditionalized per-implementation. 2017-11-07T17:58:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:59:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-07T17:59:37Z Devon: PJB: Sounds like you're saying libraries like CL-FAD should not exist? 2017-11-07T18:00:15Z pjb: require -> quicklisp -> require -> quicklisp ? 2017-11-07T18:01:10Z Bike: a lot of implementations ship asdf and have require use asdf 2017-11-07T18:01:15Z Bike: without a library or anything 2017-11-07T18:01:25Z Devon: require -> quicklisp:quickload -> happy users 2017-11-07T18:01:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T18:01:45Z Bike: of course, if you know you have quicklisp, you can just do (ql:quickload :thing) 2017-11-07T18:01:49Z Bike: just as easy as require 2017-11-07T18:02:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T18:05:21Z thebardian quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T18:05:47Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T18:06:04Z akem joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:06:13Z Devon: No reply to my earlier question about web scrapers. 2017-11-07T18:06:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:06:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:06:59Z jmercouris: Devon: Generally you'll have better luck getting a response if you just repost the question 2017-11-07T18:09:04Z akem: I'm trying to write a powerset function using reduce: https://pastebin.com/v0PN8wYP 2017-11-07T18:09:16Z akem: but I keep getting a type-error regarding the first element of the list 2017-11-07T18:09:50Z akem: I have done it using regular recursion, works fine, but this reduce version refuses to work 2017-11-07T18:10:29Z Devon: Any web scraper opinions? 2017-11-07T18:10:48Z Bike: akem: throw in :from-end t 2017-11-07T18:10:52Z takitus: I'd prefer web scrappers, personally. 2017-11-07T18:11:14Z akem: ahh thanks! 2017-11-07T18:11:41Z pjb: or swap x and acc in the parameters! 2017-11-07T18:12:08Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T18:15:30Z akem: right right 2017-11-07T18:17:26Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:19:12Z Josh_2: http://readevalprint.tumblr.com/post/80764585017/web-scraping-with-common-lisp-introduction idk what you want Devon 2017-11-07T18:21:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T18:23:24Z moei joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:24:32Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T18:25:28Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:28:51Z sjl: I've used Drakma and Plump for some really basic scraping before. It worked okay. 2017-11-07T18:29:55Z jmercouris: What is a good method for distributing a dependency not available via quicklisp? Do you normally just put it in your repository? 2017-11-07T18:30:31Z rumbler31: jmercouris: i've seen that in several places, yes 2017-11-07T18:30:59Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:31:01Z rumbler31: er nm, i mean, add it to github and in the docs of the parent project mention that dep A needs to be fetched from github as it's not in quicklisp 2017-11-07T18:31:13Z rumbler31: isn't that how you'd use it yourself? 2017-11-07T18:31:17Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Right, so you don't use submodules or anything like that 2017-11-07T18:31:27Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Yeah, I just want to lower the friction for my users to set up a dev system 2017-11-07T18:31:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T18:32:40Z rumbler31: I haven't used submodules. Although I think that also assumes that you'd have the user do *some work* to make asdf load the system from wherever in your source tree you put your dependency, right? 2017-11-07T18:32:51Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T18:32:56Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:33:16Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Possibly, but if they clone the whole repository somewhere within their "search path" for asdf systems, then it should be just immediately loadable 2017-11-07T18:33:59Z rumbler31: someone was testing a set of packages by making them their own quicklisp dist. I don't exactly know the effects of having two dists installed at once, I assume that somehow the right thing is done 2017-11-07T18:34:12Z Devon: Josh_2, sjl: thanks, I'll try CXML-Dom & Plump 2017-11-07T18:34:31Z rumbler31: does the search path include recursively descending through directories? 2017-11-07T18:34:42Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Yes 2017-11-07T18:34:48Z rumbler31: oh. 2017-11-07T18:34:57Z sjl: Devon: see also https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery for traversing what you get 2017-11-07T18:35:16Z sjl: or just CLSS (linked there) if that's all you need 2017-11-07T18:36:23Z rumbler31: yup, can't speak anymore about the tradeoffs, thats all I got hehe 2017-11-07T18:36:59Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T18:37:32Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:38:09Z jmercouris: rumbler31: No worries, thank you for the feedback 2017-11-07T18:38:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:38:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T18:43:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T18:50:18Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-07T18:51:18Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-07T18:52:14Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:55:00Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T18:55:43Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:57:51Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T18:59:36Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T19:03:42Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-07T19:04:42Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T19:07:26Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T19:08:25Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-11-07T19:09:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:13:42Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:13:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T19:16:25Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T19:16:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:16:48Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:18:05Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:19:06Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:19:24Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:19:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:23:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:23:57Z akem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T19:24:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T19:24:21Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T19:24:58Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:29:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:32:11Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:32:55Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:33:47Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-07T19:33:57Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T19:34:15Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:43:27Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T19:45:06Z akem joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:51:34Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:51:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-07T19:52:58Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:55:56Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:56:10Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-07T19:56:27Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:56:51Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T19:57:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T19:58:40Z a7f4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T20:02:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T20:07:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:10:11Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:10:17Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-07T20:11:23Z Josh_2: sjl: Where do you stream? 2017-11-07T20:11:37Z sjl: Josh_2: http://twitch.tv/stevelosh 2017-11-07T20:11:59Z Josh_2: Thanks! 2017-11-07T20:12:05Z sjl: Tuesdays 18:30 US Eastern time (which is 23:30 UTC right now) 2017-11-07T20:12:17Z Josh_2: Well that's just before I go to bed 2017-11-07T20:12:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T20:12:43Z Josh_2: Maybe I can just have less sleep tonight haha 2017-11-07T20:13:16Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T20:13:30Z SaganMan quit (Quit: cya) 2017-11-07T20:13:49Z sjl: Yeah, it's tough for european folks. But I need time to decompress my brain after work. 2017-11-07T20:13:54Z Josh_2: I always miss Baggers streaming because chicken wings so would be nice to catch some 2017-11-07T20:14:11Z Josh_2: Can learn a lot from interactive streams 2017-11-07T20:14:22Z sjl: The streams are available on the Videos page for a while after, and I've been trying to remember to download them with the intent of uploading them to Youtube for archival. 2017-11-07T20:17:27Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T20:17:29Z Josh_2: Probably a good idea to upload to YouTube, means that there is more CL content on Youtube 2017-11-07T20:17:36Z Shinmera: Josh_2: I stream Sundays: http://events.tymoon.eu/1 2017-11-07T20:17:38Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:17:56Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-11-07T20:17:56Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:17:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:18:03Z Josh_2: Why not Twitch? 2017-11-07T20:18:28Z Shinmera: Hm? 2017-11-07T20:18:28Z blasut quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T20:18:39Z Josh_2: Why not stream using Twitch? 2017-11-07T20:20:03Z Shinmera: "It is streamed to Twitch and YouTube simultaneously, " 2017-11-07T20:20:43Z shka_: neat! 2017-11-07T20:20:52Z Josh_2: I'm good at reading, can't you tell 2017-11-07T20:21:32Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T20:21:34Z Shinmera: The reason I stream to both is because one or the other doesn't work well for some people. The reason I have an extra page to watch on is so that chat is unified. 2017-11-07T20:21:37Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:21:55Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-11-07T20:22:51Z Shinmera: And also because I hate both youtube's and twitch's chat, so I wrote my own lisp-based chat. 2017-11-07T20:22:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:22:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-07T20:22:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:22:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T20:24:25Z sjl: I just use my IRC client and Twitch's IRC gateway 2017-11-07T20:24:37Z Shinmera: Which is severely broken 2017-11-07T20:24:58Z Josh_2: You use Clementine, Clementine is nice 2017-11-07T20:25:10Z sjl: Shinmera: how is it broken? 2017-11-07T20:25:21Z sjl: (assuming "it" == Twitch's IRC gateway) 2017-11-07T20:25:33Z Shinmera: sjl: No user listing, no joins/parts, pretty much nothing at all available aside from just privmsg. 2017-11-07T20:26:04Z sjl: I have joins/parts turned (almost entirely)off in my IRC client as is 2017-11-07T20:26:17Z Shinmera: Same, but the point is that tab completion stops working. 2017-11-07T20:26:34Z Shinmera: So I can't just tab a name to see if they're around, or when I want to tell them something. 2017-11-07T20:26:40Z sjl: ... you type to them instead of just... talking? 2017-11-07T20:26:50Z Shinmera: When I'm a chat user. 2017-11-07T20:27:16Z sjl: Oh, you're talking about using it for viewing? I rarely do that, yeah. 2017-11-07T20:27:38Z eudoxia: any excuse is a good excuse to roll your own X in Lisp 2017-11-07T20:27:55Z sjl: the NIH is strong with Lisp, yep 2017-11-07T20:28:01Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-07T20:28:03Z Shinmera: Also I loathe Twitch emotes with the power of nuclear fission, so that alone would have been enough reason for me to use anything but that. 2017-11-07T20:28:25Z Josh_2: Twitch emotes are nice 2017-11-07T20:28:27Z sjl: No emotes in my IRC client 2017-11-07T20:28:33Z jmercouris: pjb: are you there? 2017-11-07T20:28:34Z Shinmera: sjl: People will still use them 2017-11-07T20:28:43Z sjl: Shinmera: sure, they'll type the words 2017-11-07T20:28:47Z sjl: words don't hurt me 2017-11-07T20:28:54Z sjl: as long as I don't have to look at the heiroglyphs 2017-11-07T20:28:59Z Shinmera: Neither do images, but it's still annoying to just have emotes. 2017-11-07T20:29:25Z Shinmera: I don't much care for the twitch culture of just spamming emotes. 2017-11-07T20:29:25Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T20:29:45Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:30:30Z Josh_2: EleGiggle 2017-11-07T20:30:46Z jmercouris: So I am working on migrating the following code: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/CocoaInterface to use a system instead of require-from/eval, and I've removed all require, and provide, but it still doesn't want to work :\ 2017-11-07T20:31:01Z sjl: Sure, I guess the people that tend to stick around for more than two minutes to watch me write Lisp aren't usually emote spammers. 2017-11-07T20:31:23Z Josh_2: Maybe I'll watch the whole time and post emotes 2017-11-07T20:32:23Z jmercouris: Does anyone know of a good way to automatically sort dependencies? I have a bunch of files that depend on others etc 2017-11-07T20:32:38Z jmercouris: It's not my code, and its many thousands of lines, so I would rather not go down through the dependency rabbit hole 2017-11-07T20:32:43Z jmercouris: is there another way of ordering the loading? 2017-11-07T20:33:41Z sjl: jmercouris: many people tend to use `:serial t` in their ASDF component lists, even if it's not strictly necessary to load everything serially 2017-11-07T20:34:02Z sjl: it can be a lot less typing than specifying each individual dependency 2017-11-07T20:34:13Z jmercouris: sjl: It still requires knowledge of what must come before what 2017-11-07T20:34:20Z sjl: well, yes 2017-11-07T20:34:21Z jmercouris: I don't know what the "main" entry point into the system would be considered 2017-11-07T20:34:36Z sjl: are you hoping to find something that will look at the files and guess what depends on what? 2017-11-07T20:34:39Z jmercouris: Yes 2017-11-07T20:35:24Z sjl: I don't know of anything like that, because it would probably be really hard to do in the general case. 2017-11-07T20:35:35Z jmercouris: Yeah, I imagine :\ 2017-11-07T20:35:51Z sjl: If you revert your removal of all the `require`s you could probably script up something that would read in each file and produce a list of what it `require`s 2017-11-07T20:36:13Z jmercouris: Yes, that would work, the question thereafter is how to organize the serial list given those requires 2017-11-07T20:36:31Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:36:43Z sjl: create a digraph of the dependencies and topologically sort it 2017-11-07T20:37:15Z jmercouris: I know that sounds easy enough 2017-11-07T20:37:16Z sjl: e.g. https://sjl.bitbucket.io/cl-digraph/usage/#topological-sorting 2017-11-07T20:37:33Z jmercouris: But sometimes it requires packages, and sometimes files 2017-11-07T20:37:42Z jmercouris: I'm literally at the point of :'( 2017-11-07T20:37:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:38:47Z sjl: what do you mean requires packages? 2017-11-07T20:38:50Z jmercouris: sjl: that is a very interesting library you got there 2017-11-07T20:38:51Z _death: moving to package-inferred-systems style will force you to analyse dependencies as well, but the process is helped by compile errors and the chance for silent breakage is reduced 2017-11-07T20:38:54Z sjl: are we talking about clhs require 2017-11-07T20:38:59Z sjl: clhs require 2017-11-07T20:38:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm 2017-11-07T20:39:01Z sjl: please bot 2017-11-07T20:39:24Z jmercouris: _death: Can you please say that in another way so I can understand 2017-11-07T20:39:30Z jmercouris: What is a package-inferred system? 2017-11-07T20:39:43Z sjl: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html 2017-11-07T20:40:11Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:40:24Z jmercouris: sjl: That is a very interesting lib you've got there, maybe I'll make a dependency graph 2017-11-07T20:40:40Z jmercouris: Ok, let me start with a more general question 2017-11-07T20:40:53Z jmercouris: I feel I am very much x-y problem right now 2017-11-07T20:41:09Z sjl: it's an option. probably not fun, but might be more fun than manually going through by hand 2017-11-07T20:41:32Z jmercouris: How might one suggest converting the following code: https://github.com/plkrueger/CocoaInterface to using asdf 2017-11-07T20:41:40Z _death: that way each file lists its dependencies, and each file exports symbols for use in other files 2017-11-07T20:41:48Z jmercouris: this is my attempt thusfar: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/CocoaInterface 2017-11-07T20:42:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T20:42:50Z sjl: depends on your patience for tedium 2017-11-07T20:43:01Z jmercouris: I have infinity patience for tedium 2017-11-07T20:43:08Z jmercouris: I just wish there was an incremental approach I could follow 2017-11-07T20:43:09Z sjl: 1. There's only like 60 files, just go through and figure out ther dependency order and use :serial t 2017-11-07T20:43:11Z jmercouris: so I can convert it piecmeal 2017-11-07T20:43:22Z jmercouris: "only" 60 files :'( 2017-11-07T20:43:38Z sjl: 2. Oh god there's 60 files, let's write a script that tries to parse require/provide forms and toposort them. 2017-11-07T20:43:40Z jmercouris: I think I'll use your directed graph and make something 2017-11-07T20:44:03Z sjl: I'd probably choose 2, and it would probably end up taking longer than 1 by the time I debugged all the edge cases. 2017-11-07T20:44:08Z jmercouris: If 60 files is considered not too tedious, then I'll revise my answer, apparently my patience for tediousness is almost zero :D 2017-11-07T20:44:48Z jmercouris: Let me see how I can leverage emacs to write the code for me 2017-11-07T20:44:51Z sjl: At least these seem pretty straightforward in their use of require/provide, from the 2 or 3 I've looked at. 2017-11-07T20:44:53Z jmercouris: sjl: Do you have digraph installed on your computer? 2017-11-07T20:45:04Z sjl: yes, I think it's in Quicklisp too 2017-11-07T20:45:06Z jmercouris: If so, can I just give you the snippet to run? 2017-11-07T20:45:08Z jmercouris: Ok 2017-11-07T20:45:17Z jmercouris: Let me try to produce something meaningful now via emacs 2017-11-07T20:45:55Z Quasus joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:47:14Z sjl erases 0 under "Dependencies you could have figured out by hand by now" on chalk board, writes a 1 2017-11-07T20:47:26Z jmercouris: sjl: Lol this will be "quicker" at least mentally 2017-11-07T20:48:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:51:09Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-07T20:52:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T20:56:13Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T20:58:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T20:58:58Z jmercouris: sjl: "An error will be signaled if the digraph contains a cycle" 2017-11-07T20:59:04Z jmercouris: So what if there is a cyclic dependency? 2017-11-07T20:59:39Z sjl: jmercouris: how would you order the dependencies in that case? 2017-11-07T20:59:48Z sjl: if file A requires file B, and file B requires file A 2017-11-07T20:59:52Z sjl: what could you do? 2017-11-07T21:00:17Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's what I am asking :\ 2017-11-07T21:00:21Z jmercouris: I guess lets see if that happens first 2017-11-07T21:00:31Z sjl: jmercouris: is there an example of this in the repo you're trying to port? 2017-11-07T21:01:04Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T21:01:20Z jmercouris: Not sure yet, I'm writing the code to make the graph 2017-11-07T21:02:20Z sjl: I don't know how that would work with require/provide 2017-11-07T21:02:31Z sjl: I'd be surprised if they had anything like that 2017-11-07T21:02:38Z sjl: (any circular deps) 2017-11-07T21:02:47Z sjl erases 1 under "Dependencies you could have figured out by hand by now" on chalk board, writes a 4 2017-11-07T21:03:17Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:03:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:03:35Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:04:13Z sjl: I'd just try it, and if you encounter the circular deps problem, massage the data by hand as needed 2017-11-07T21:04:37Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:08:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:10:50Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:13:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:14:52Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:15:14Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:18:14Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:19:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:21:03Z xaotuk1 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:21:58Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:21:58Z xaotuk1 is now known as xaotuk 2017-11-07T21:22:31Z jmercouris: sjl: DONE! 2017-11-07T21:22:32Z jmercouris: sjl: https://gist.github.com/274a785717e253cf259d19339ea788a8 2017-11-07T21:22:35Z jmercouris: Can you please run it? 2017-11-07T21:23:03Z jmercouris: sjl: Sorry had to delete one line: https://gist.github.com/0c144be8d951f55acfe0d4553b80e1cf 2017-11-07T21:23:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:25:17Z lnostdal_ quit (Quit: lnostdal_) 2017-11-07T21:26:23Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:27:48Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-11-07T21:28:17Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:29:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:29:54Z sjl: jmercouris: there's a bunch of errors 2017-11-07T21:30:15Z sjl: e.g. mangled calls https://gist.github.com/jmercouris/0c144be8d951f55acfe0d4553b80e1cf#file-dependency-txt-L77 2017-11-07T21:30:27Z sjl: just (ql:quickload :cl-digraph) and try running it yourself 2017-11-07T21:30:31Z ExcelTronic joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:31:25Z jmercouris: I don't have graphviz 2017-11-07T21:31:32Z sjl: you don't need it 2017-11-07T21:31:45Z sjl: unless you try to quickload the cl-digraph.dot package 2017-11-07T21:31:48Z jmercouris: I do to make the graphic 2017-11-07T21:31:49Z sjl: or at least you shouldn't 2017-11-07T21:31:52Z sjl: well sure 2017-11-07T21:31:54Z jmercouris: Ok, let me get it to compile first, then I'll ping you again 2017-11-07T21:32:04Z jmercouris: sorry about the mistakes 2017-11-07T21:32:05Z sjl: but you don't need the graphic, you just need the serial order to shove in the .asd 2017-11-07T21:33:00Z jmercouris: I'm interested in looking at the graphic 2017-11-07T21:34:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:35:10Z sjl: ah, then yeah you need graphviz. it should be available in most package managers 2017-11-07T21:36:27Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:36:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:37:26Z jmercouris: yeah, it's on macports, I just don't really enjoy installing many dependencies on my system 2017-11-07T21:37:35Z jmercouris: Cleaning them up is always a mess 2017-11-07T21:37:57Z jmercouris: So I've got a cyclic dependency error, how can I find where it is? 2017-11-07T21:38:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:40:03Z jmercouris: I should be able to draw even if it is cyclic right? that makes sense 2017-11-07T21:40:14Z jmercouris: I guess sudo port install graphviz it is 2017-11-07T21:42:29Z fikka quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-07T21:44:59Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:45:27Z jmercouris: here's the graph in case anyone is wondering: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1691662/32519504-4917df0a-c40d-11e7-8888-17b98546c2c6.png 2017-11-07T21:45:34Z jmercouris: I can't even begin with untangling this, any ideas? 2017-11-07T21:46:20Z sjl: the error you get with the cyclic dep should tell you at least one of the nodes involved in the cycle 2017-11-07T21:46:32Z sjl: ideally it would give you the entire cycle, but I was too lazy to add that 2017-11-07T21:46:38Z Fare: Hi. Does anyone here use protobuf? Which library do you use? Do you have examples to share? 2017-11-07T21:47:22Z sjl: jmercouris: ^^^ 2017-11-07T21:47:50Z sjl: I see at least one problem in the graph. Look for the error and find the node it tells you to look at. 2017-11-07T21:48:21Z Shinmera: Fare: I worked on scymtym's job project at one point, which uses protobufs. He probably has some advice to give on that. 2017-11-07T21:49:37Z jmercouris: sjl: It tells me only one of the nodes, unfortunately that node appears in so many places 2017-11-07T21:49:45Z jmercouris: I guess it is less work than manually going through 60 files, still 2017-11-07T21:49:45Z sjl: jmercouris: which node? 2017-11-07T21:50:01Z jmercouris: interface-packages 2017-11-07T21:50:03Z sjl: right 2017-11-07T21:50:07Z sjl: now look at that node in the graph 2017-11-07T21:50:09Z sjl: carefully. 2017-11-07T21:50:11Z jmercouris: btw, I've used many directed graph packages in different languages, this is really well done sjl 2017-11-07T21:50:15Z jmercouris: Good job, seriously 2017-11-07T21:50:33Z sjl: thanks. cl-dot does the heavy lifting for graphviz, but it helps untangling stuff a lot 2017-11-07T21:50:48Z jmercouris: sjl: Yes, I see that it has a dependency to itself 2017-11-07T21:50:52Z sjl: right 2017-11-07T21:50:56Z jmercouris: Why should that matter though 2017-11-07T21:50:57Z sjl: that's the circular dependency 2017-11-07T21:51:00Z jmercouris: is your system not capable of resolving it? 2017-11-07T21:51:06Z jmercouris: I mean that is not exactly a circular dependency 2017-11-07T21:51:16Z jmercouris: I would say A->B B->A is a circular dependency 2017-11-07T21:51:37Z jmercouris: at any rate, let me try removing that edge and see what happens 2017-11-07T21:51:54Z sjl: so, you can't topologically sort something with a cycle. this is a cycle of length 1 2017-11-07T21:52:06Z sjl: we can argue whether toposort shoudl ignore cycles of length 1, I suppose 2017-11-07T21:52:19Z sjl: but like, what does it mean that INTERFACE-PACKAGES depends on itself? 2017-11-07T21:52:54Z jmercouris: sjl: It means that within the interface-packages file, there was a eval-when to interface-packages 2017-11-07T21:52:58Z jmercouris: at least that is what I guess 2017-11-07T21:53:01Z jmercouris: s/eval-when/require 2017-11-07T21:53:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:53:19Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:53:20Z jmercouris: Actually looking at the file now, that makes no sense 2017-11-07T21:53:24Z jmercouris: It is a definition of packages 2017-11-07T21:53:34Z sjl: yeah 2017-11-07T21:54:04Z sjl: this thing is depended on by lots of stuff cause it just defines lots of packages 2017-11-07T21:54:17Z jmercouris: sjl: heres the repository in case you didn't have the link: https://github.com/plkrueger/CocoaInterface 2017-11-07T21:54:25Z sjl: yeah I saw it before 2017-11-07T21:54:30Z jmercouris: K, just makin sure 2017-11-07T21:54:35Z sjl: only tangentially following along 2017-11-07T21:54:42Z sjl: while I wait for queries to finish 2017-11-07T21:54:50Z jmercouris: ns-object-utils is the next issue 2017-11-07T21:55:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T21:55:30Z sjl: note to self: it's probably worth adding a function to digraph.dot to just print the .dot output instead of trying to shell out to graphviz 2017-11-07T21:55:31Z sjl: ala http://foldr.org/~michaelw/projects/cl-dot/#Generating-Output 2017-11-07T21:55:39Z jmercouris: sjl: Yes, please 2017-11-07T21:55:42Z sjl: that way people could just dump the dot and paste it into a web graphviz 2017-11-07T21:55:45Z sjl: without installing 2017-11-07T21:56:02Z jmercouris: Additionally really useful would be actaully writing the full circular dependency listing both nodes 2017-11-07T21:56:05Z jmercouris: not just one of them 2017-11-07T21:56:16Z jmercouris: Parsing this graph with my eyes makes me feel like a caveman :D 2017-11-07T21:56:27Z Josh_2: That's a lot of depending, they gotta get a job 2017-11-07T21:57:23Z sjl: I thought I wrote something to find the full cycles at some point 2017-11-07T21:57:24Z jmercouris: Josh_2: Who is "they" and what do you mean? 2017-11-07T21:57:27Z sjl: but don't see it int he docs 2017-11-07T21:57:49Z Josh_2: It was a bad joke about them being dependent on others so they should get a job 2017-11-07T21:58:11Z Josh_2: *waves stick* "Darn moochers" 2017-11-07T21:58:13Z jmercouris: Josh_2: Ah, I see 2017-11-07T21:58:25Z sjl: ah yeah, it was buried deep in the guts of my thesis project https://github.com/sjl/scully/blob/master/src/terms.lisp#L237 2017-11-07T21:58:27Z jmercouris: sjl: Looking at NS-OBJECT-UTILS, I don't see any obvious cycle 2017-11-07T21:58:28Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-07T21:58:38Z sjl: you could probably write something that removes anything not in a cycle though 2017-11-07T21:59:07Z jmercouris: sjl: What? 2017-11-07T21:59:32Z pseudonymous: I'm wondering, are many people still swearing to the IDE's of Lispworks / ACL ? Specifically, what do I get that Emacs+Slime doesn't give ? (Usability is a great point too) 2017-11-07T22:00:18Z sjl: jmercouris: something janky like (loop :for l = (digraph:leafs *d*) :until (null l) :do (dolist (leaf l) (digraph:remove-vertex *d* leaf))) 2017-11-07T22:00:31Z sjl: to find all leaf nodes (which are by definition not part of a cycle) 2017-11-07T22:00:34Z sjl: and strip them out 2017-11-07T22:00:39Z sjl: until there are no leaves left 2017-11-07T22:00:46Z sjl: which means you're only left with cycles 2017-11-07T22:00:54Z jmercouris: sjl: A very clever/backwards approach 2017-11-07T22:01:01Z jmercouris: I think there is an edge case here though 2017-11-07T22:01:13Z jmercouris: I can't put my finger on it, but I have a strong suspicion 2017-11-07T22:01:33Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:01:45Z sjl: jmercouris: binding-utils and kvo-slot 2017-11-07T22:01:51Z sjl: depend on each other 2017-11-07T22:02:06Z jmercouris: sjl: How did you find that out? 2017-11-07T22:02:12Z jmercouris: Just by looking? 2017-11-07T22:02:28Z sjl: jmercouris: I ran the code I pasted and redrew the graph 2017-11-07T22:02:34Z sjl: which resulted in a lot smaller of a graph to check 2017-11-07T22:02:42Z sjl: and noticed the two arrows pointing at each other 2017-11-07T22:03:34Z jmercouris: so you have a graph composed solely of cycles? 2017-11-07T22:03:45Z sjl: well, one bigass cycle, yes 2017-11-07T22:03:47Z jmercouris: it actually worked? 2017-11-07T22:03:58Z jmercouris: can you please upload the image 2017-11-07T22:04:02Z sjl: I mean, yeah 2017-11-07T22:04:03Z jmercouris: you can upload it as a comment on my gist 2017-11-07T22:04:08Z sjl: just copy and paste the `loop` 2017-11-07T22:04:14Z sjl: and then redraw the graph 2017-11-07T22:04:28Z jmercouris: ok 2017-11-07T22:04:29Z sjl teaches to fish 2017-11-07T22:05:18Z jmercouris throws rock at fish 2017-11-07T22:05:31Z jmercouris recites incantations for summoning fish 2017-11-07T22:07:08Z sjl: there's probably other cyclic things in there too, that was just the one that jumped out 2017-11-07T22:07:24Z sjl: like I said, there's gonna be edge cases to debug when you try to do something like this programatically 2017-11-07T22:07:43Z sjl erases 4 under "Dependencies you could have figured out by hand by now" on chalk board, writes a 30 2017-11-07T22:07:54Z jmercouris: Lol, there's no way I could have done 30 2017-11-07T22:08:00Z jmercouris: Trust me, I would have made a mistake 2017-11-07T22:09:04Z jmercouris: Alright, so here's the big question though, will it detect A->B->C->A ? 2017-11-07T22:09:18Z jmercouris: I can't even imagine how I'd write a simple algorithm to detect that 2017-11-07T22:10:08Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T22:10:30Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:10:31Z Murii quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T22:13:58Z pjb: jmercouris: check out com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:topological-sort 2017-11-07T22:14:17Z sjl: yes, it will detect it 2017-11-07T22:14:44Z pjb: and of course, com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:find-cycles just after it. 2017-11-07T22:15:34Z jmercouris: pjb: While you are here, do you agree with my approach, or no? 2017-11-07T22:16:54Z pjb: Sorry, I didn't check your code. 2017-11-07T22:17:39Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T22:17:44Z jmercouris: pjb: I can briefly summarize, I am following your advice from earlier, removed require, and provide from all lisp files 2017-11-07T22:17:49Z jmercouris: added them to an asd file 2017-11-07T22:18:03Z jmercouris: I am now trying to determine the load order by creating a dependency graph 2017-11-07T22:18:06Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:18:24Z jmercouris: Is there an easier, piecemeal way to do things perhaps that isn't "all or nothing" in terms of success in loading? 2017-11-07T22:18:35Z pjb: When you have circularity, you can often identify a subset of toplevel definition that are needed in the dependencies, and thus split the file in two parts. 2017-11-07T22:19:22Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:19:27Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T22:19:50Z pjb: I wouldn't use :serial t at all, once you have a DAG, you can just translate it into asdf :depends-on. 2017-11-07T22:21:33Z jmercouris: pjb: What do you mean by just using :depends-on? 2017-11-07T22:22:02Z pjb: The ASD is a DAG itself. 2017-11-07T22:22:09Z pjb: You don't need to flatten it. 2017-11-07T22:22:22Z jmercouris: pjb: What is DAG? directed graph? 2017-11-07T22:23:47Z fouric: directed acyclic graph, yes 2017-11-07T22:24:06Z jmercouris: So I need to first make the graph acyclic 2017-11-07T22:24:11Z pjb: Yes. 2017-11-07T22:24:20Z jmercouris: If the graph is acyclic, then it can be flattened 2017-11-07T22:24:47Z pjb: For example, by spliting one file of the cycle. A1->B->C->A2 (or B1->C->A->B2 etc) 2017-11-07T22:25:23Z pjb: Often you can separate macros from other functions. Or defclass from the methods, etc. 2017-11-07T22:26:24Z sjl: jmercouris: instead of doing :serial t and flattening the list, you can specifically tell ASDF which files depend on exactly which other files 2017-11-07T22:26:49Z jmercouris: sjl: ASDF will still complain of circular dependency no? 2017-11-07T22:26:55Z sjl: :components ((:file "foo") ... (:file "bar" :depends-on ("foo")) 2017-11-07T22:27:05Z sjl: jmercouris: yes, you need to resolve the circularity either way 2017-11-07T22:27:42Z sjl: potentially ASDF could do something smart like loading things in parallel if you specify all the dependencies instead of just flattening them and doing them in serial one-by-one 2017-11-07T22:28:10Z sjl: lots of people don't bother with that these days, because we're lazy and loading systems is often fast enough as-is 2017-11-07T22:28:29Z sjl: but it's an option, and since you're building a DAG anyway most of the work is already done 2017-11-07T22:28:44Z sjl: but yeah, either way you have to figure out and resolve the circularity 2017-11-07T22:31:23Z jmercouris: There must be a way to automate this... 2017-11-07T22:31:49Z jmercouris: I don't want to go and slowly disentagle the common parts :| 2017-11-07T22:32:55Z jmercouris: You know what might be an interesting exercise would be taking the defuns I'm interested in and just tracking down the dependencies that I'd need just for those 2017-11-07T22:32:59Z jmercouris: and then pull those out into a flat file of some sort 2017-11-07T22:33:06Z jmercouris: that way I don't need to figure out the whole distribution 2017-11-07T22:33:45Z sjl: down that path lies full code walking 2017-11-07T22:34:43Z jmercouris: Hmm, yeah 2017-11-07T22:35:00Z jmercouris: is there a way to generate an AST as a data structure? 2017-11-07T22:35:04Z jmercouris: Like a way for me to peek at it 2017-11-07T22:35:32Z sjl: I mean, READ 2017-11-07T22:35:36Z sjl: that's the beauty of lisp 2017-11-07T22:35:52Z sjl: (defun foo () 1) is just a list with four elements 2017-11-07T22:36:12Z jmercouris: How can I manually invoke READ? is there some function or something I can call? 2017-11-07T22:36:16Z sjl: but doing full code walking is a lot more involved, and probably more complicated than you really want to get into 2017-11-07T22:36:27Z sjl: read 2017-11-07T22:36:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T22:36:29Z sjl: read is the function 2017-11-07T22:36:31Z sjl: lol 2017-11-07T22:36:36Z jmercouris: Lol, nice 2017-11-07T22:36:36Z mfiano: haha 2017-11-07T22:37:19Z sjl: (with-open-file (s "foo.lisp") (read s)) 2017-11-07T22:37:39Z sjl: but yeah, actually resolving everything a given function uses is not trivial 2017-11-07T22:37:48Z jmercouris: That would be useful though wouldn't it? 2017-11-07T22:37:51Z jmercouris: as like a utility 2017-11-07T22:38:00Z sjl: I'd recommend you just try to untangle the few remaining circular deps 2017-11-07T22:38:01Z jmercouris: let's say you want to pull something in from some codebase but don't want to QL everything 2017-11-07T22:38:25Z jmercouris: sjl: Ok, thank you for your help/advice 2017-11-07T22:38:42Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:38:49Z sjl: that's the problem tree shakers are designed to solve 2017-11-07T22:39:01Z sjl: albeit from the other side of the problem 2017-11-07T22:39:24Z sjl: as far as I know there's no actively maintained tree shakers for any of the major Lisp implementations these days 2017-11-07T22:39:27Z sjl: at least not the free ones 2017-11-07T22:40:27Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T22:41:12Z pseudonymous quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-07T22:43:23Z pjb: jmercouris: well, the algorithm to untangle it, is to split all the file to get one toplevel expression per file, and to determine the dependencies based on the symbol references (in the various namespaces: variables, functions, type/classes, etc). 2017-11-07T22:43:50Z jmercouris: pjb: Could I not just copy all of the files contents into a single massive file? 2017-11-07T22:43:52Z jmercouris: would that work? 2017-11-07T22:44:02Z jmercouris: assuming there are no name conflicts? 2017-11-07T22:44:46Z pjb: Nope. Because you still need to put macros first, and to have in the compilation environment the functions and constants used by the macros etc. 2017-11-07T22:44:56Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:45:00Z pjb: Actually, concatenating all the files, would make it even more complicated! 2017-11-07T22:45:25Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T22:45:34Z jmercouris: Here's another question, why could the system load no problem with circular dependencies by using the eval-when require method? 2017-11-07T22:45:46Z pjb: You would have to wrap a lot of expression into eval-when forms. 2017-11-07T22:46:20Z pjb: because require doesn't load the file a second time. SO A->B->C->A is actually loaded as A->B->C 2017-11-07T22:46:27Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T22:46:29Z pjb: (if you require C) 2017-11-07T22:46:50Z mfiano: Bike: The readme file for compile-macro has been linking to a non-existent html documentation file for a couple years since it started generating one. 2017-11-07T22:47:05Z jmercouris: Is there not a way to recreate this behavior in asdf without me having to untangle everything? 2017-11-07T22:47:29Z ExcelTronic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T22:47:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-07T22:48:02Z Bike: mfiano: i'll check it 2017-11-07T22:48:56Z pjb: jmercouris: you can break the circular dependencies. 2017-11-07T22:49:11Z pjb: If you analyse the require graph, you can reproduce it in ASD. 2017-11-07T22:49:25Z Trystam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:50:19Z pjb: A brutal alternative would be to (trace require) on an implementation that allows it, and to load your system. Then you can just list all the required files in reverse order of require calls. 2017-11-07T22:50:38Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T22:50:46Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-11-07T22:51:35Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T22:51:38Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-07T22:51:50Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2017-11-07T22:55:49Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-07T22:56:55Z luminous_arbour quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T22:59:14Z jmercouris: pjb: How does one trace a function? 2017-11-07T22:59:27Z pjb: with the trace function. 2017-11-07T22:59:51Z pjb: But for function in the CL package, it's not guaranteed to work as you expect. 2017-11-07T23:00:03Z pjb: It depends on the implementation. 2017-11-07T23:00:09Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T23:00:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T23:03:35Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T23:04:03Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T23:04:28Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:04:54Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T23:05:26Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:06:06Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:11:51Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:11:51Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T23:14:55Z Josh_2` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T23:15:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:19:45Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:21:07Z eudoxia quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T23:21:23Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T23:21:26Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:24:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:25:40Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:27:54Z edgar-rft: pjb: what please is guaranteed to work as expected in life, the universe, and everything? 2017-11-07T23:28:32Z pjb: A lot in clhs is guarantee. But there's also a sizeable proportion of not guaranteed. 2017-11-07T23:30:40Z edgar-rft: Is it guaranteed to work when my computer explodes? 2017-11-07T23:30:52Z rocx: the standard hasn't specified. 2017-11-07T23:31:37Z pjb: Nope, but it's guaranteed to work when you computer doesn't explode, contrarily to trace cl:… which is not. 2017-11-07T23:33:05Z edgar-rft: AFAIK it's nowhere specified that my computer is required to work correctly. 2017-11-07T23:33:17Z pjb: It's implicit. 2017-11-07T23:33:59Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-07T23:35:04Z edgar-rft: When the universe was created it was implied that all computers work correctly at all time? 2017-11-07T23:35:17Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:36:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-07T23:36:20Z edgar-rft: ...or does it depend on the implementation of the respective universe? 2017-11-07T23:36:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:39:35Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:39:55Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-07T23:40:35Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T23:41:14Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-07T23:43:24Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-07T23:43:54Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:45:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-07T23:48:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-07T23:59:46Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:05:15Z Fare: Hi. What json library do you recommend for CL ? 2017-11-08T00:05:27Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-08T00:05:39Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:06:26Z pjb: The one that's most adapted to your use case. 2017-11-08T00:06:51Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:07:30Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:09:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T00:10:08Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:10:30Z Tex_Nick left #lisp 2017-11-08T00:19:19Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T00:19:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:28:04Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-08T00:28:09Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:28:15Z Quasus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T00:34:07Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T00:40:44Z luminous_arbour quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T00:43:48Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T00:51:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T00:54:08Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T00:54:15Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:54:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T00:59:20Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T00:59:50Z aeth: oh, cool, trace is cool 2017-11-08T01:00:17Z aeth: pjb: Doesn't matter what the computer does, everything ultimately interfaces with C, which is defined as undefined behavior. 2017-11-08T01:00:35Z aeth: Leaves more room for the optimizer when nothing's defined, so that's the design principle of C. 2017-11-08T01:03:29Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:08:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:13:36Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:14:44Z Guest20101 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T01:14:44Z itruslove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T01:17:40Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:17:41Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T01:17:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:20:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:21:37Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:24:46Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:25:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:25:08Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:25:10Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:25:55Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:26:53Z sjl_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-08T01:27:05Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:27:35Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:29:00Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:29:56Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:30:02Z giraffe is now known as Guest32325 2017-11-08T01:31:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:31:23Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:32:41Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:33:58Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:34:56Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-08T01:35:27Z luminous_arbour joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:36:57Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:41:45Z milanj_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-08T01:42:28Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:42:56Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-08T01:43:20Z Jesin quit (Quit: brb) 2017-11-08T01:46:40Z milanj_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-08T01:49:35Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T01:49:44Z phadthai joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:52:21Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-08T01:58:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:00:34Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:02:05Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-08T02:02:51Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:06:05Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T02:18:00Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:18:40Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T02:19:02Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:30:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-08T02:31:59Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-08T02:35:12Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:38:40Z panji joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:40:39Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:42:32Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:45:14Z asarch: How do you write your books beach, with LaTeX or with DocBook? 2017-11-08T02:45:37Z asarch: Or with SGML? 2017-11-08T02:47:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:50:00Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-08T02:51:34Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-08T02:52:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T02:53:26Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-08T02:57:05Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:00:01Z d4ryus3 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:01:57Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T03:02:31Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:03:07Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T03:03:25Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:05:19Z earl-ducaine: asearch: that's a great question! I'd like to know too. 2017-11-08T03:08:43Z dotcra joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:10:01Z asarch: When you are writing a book and you cite something, like "...there are several programming languages like Perl[1], Lisp, C, C++..." and then at the end of the chapter you put those cites: "[1] - The glue programming language for the web". What is the name of this kind of cites? 2017-11-08T03:10:19Z Bike: er, endnotes? 2017-11-08T03:10:20Z asarch: They are like footnotes but only at the end of the chapter 2017-11-08T03:10:36Z Bike: yeah, that's endnotes. 2017-11-08T03:11:06Z asarch: Thank you Bike 2017-11-08T03:11:11Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-11-08T03:14:05Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T03:16:01Z rocx: asarch: or "footnotes"? 2017-11-08T03:16:06Z ft joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:16:33Z pillton: footnotes are printed at the bottom of the page. 2017-11-08T03:17:14Z rocx: ah. 2017-11-08T03:17:45Z White_Flame: headnotes are placed at the beginning, before they're referenced 2017-11-08T03:20:23Z asarch: Well, DocBook XSL sheets, transform the footnotes at the end of the page ONLY in HTML documents 2017-11-08T03:20:35Z asarch: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Footnotes.html 2017-11-08T03:22:55Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T03:26:12Z dotcra quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-11-08T03:26:52Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-08T03:28:55Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:29:13Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-08T03:29:27Z beach: asarch: I use LaTeX. 2017-11-08T03:33:56Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T03:38:28Z dotcra joined #lisp 2017-11-08T03:53:08Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T03:55:00Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-08T03:56:19Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T03:56:42Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:06:58Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-08T04:11:20Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-11-08T04:14:46Z panji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T04:17:08Z asarch: Thank you beach 2017-11-08T04:17:36Z asarch: Bonjour mon ami! 2017-11-08T04:19:48Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T04:20:14Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:29:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:31:32Z panji joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:34:53Z takitus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T04:35:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:36:31Z panji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-08T04:38:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:40:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T04:48:31Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T04:50:19Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:50:26Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-11-08T04:52:00Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-11-08T05:00:27Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T05:02:57Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T05:10:48Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T05:19:10Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T05:20:23Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-08T05:30:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T05:34:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-08T05:35:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T05:36:29Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T05:37:04Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-08T05:38:09Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-08T05:41:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T05:46:11Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T05:46:13Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-08T05:49:44Z brendyn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-08T05:50:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T05:52:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T05:55:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:00:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:01:31Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-08T06:03:36Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-08T06:04:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:05:52Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:07:29Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:07:34Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:08:02Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:10:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:15:11Z vsync joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:15:26Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-08T06:15:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:16:36Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:20:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:22:53Z nika quit 2017-11-08T06:25:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:25:58Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:30:58Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:31:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:35:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:40:31Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:40:57Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:41:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:41:47Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T06:41:55Z luminous_arbour quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T06:42:05Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:42:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:44:03Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T06:44:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:46:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:46:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:48:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:49:27Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:51:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:53:12Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:56:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T06:57:15Z wiselord_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T06:59:00Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-08T07:00:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T07:02:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T07:04:32Z wiselord joined #lisp 2017-11-08T07:04:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T07:06:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T07:07:16Z d4ryus3 is now known as d4ryus 2017-11-08T07:10:35Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T07:10:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T07:11:34Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2017-11-08T11:13:51Z pjb: The syntax for that is: (defclass test () ((a :initarg :a) (b :initarg :b))) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((foo test) &key &allow-other-keys) (setf (slot-value foo 'b) (slot-value foo 'a))) 2017-11-08T11:13:52Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:13:54Z akr: just thought it would make my life a tiny bit easier… I thought about using `let`, but this would be simpler :) 2017-11-08T11:14:20Z phoe: pjb: he does not want to do this automatically for each single class from what I understood 2017-11-08T11:14:57Z phoe: but yes, one can define a constructor to always bind the slots during instance initialization 2017-11-08T11:15:07Z akr: oh, that's cool 2017-11-08T11:15:51Z akr: thanks a lot for the help, I think I'll just go with the `let` :) 2017-11-08T11:16:13Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T11:16:28Z phoe: that's the simplest way I think, and also the most most readable 2017-11-08T11:16:34Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:17:44Z pjb: (defun dup (x) (list x x)) (defun interspece (a b) (mapcan (function list) a b)) (apply (function make-instance) 'test (interspece '(:a :b) (dup 5))) 2017-11-08T11:18:25Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:18:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-08T11:21:10Z pjb: You can even write interspece like this for more generality: (defun interspece (&rest lists) (apply (function mapcar) (function list) lists)) 2017-11-08T11:21:13Z pjb: (defun triple (x) (list x x x)) (interspece '(a b c) '(1 2 3) (triple 'x)) #| --> ((a 1 x) (b 2 x) (c 3 x)) |# 2017-11-08T11:22:08Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-08T11:27:55Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-11-08T11:28:48Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:30:39Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:30:39Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T11:30:41Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-11-08T11:31:18Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-08T11:31:57Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:32:14Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:32:47Z cods quit (Changing host) 2017-11-08T11:32:47Z cods joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:33:49Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-08T11:36:57Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-08T11:37:55Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:40:57Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:44:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:46:50Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:48:04Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-08T11:49:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:49:29Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T11:53:45Z Younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T11:53:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T11:58:58Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T12:00:58Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T12:01:54Z mishoo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T12:04:08Z sarkic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T12:04:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-08T12:05:22Z sarkic joined #lisp 2017-11-08T12:12:27Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-08T12:12:39Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-08T12:13:11Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T12:26:38Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:11:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:14:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T14:16:17Z wiselord quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:17:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:23:42Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T14:24:24Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:24:54Z murii: does lisp have something like a constant variable ? 2017-11-08T14:25:18Z Bicyclidine: clhs defconstant 2017-11-08T14:25:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcon.htm 2017-11-08T14:25:30Z jackdaniel: murii: isn't that a paradox? constant which is variable? 2017-11-08T14:25:43Z jackdaniel: CL has constants 2017-11-08T14:25:52Z murii: why would it be? 2017-11-08T14:26:30Z bjorkintosh: murii, do you need a constant or a variable? 2017-11-08T14:26:38Z bjorkintosh: (or both) 2017-11-08T14:27:08Z jackdaniel: murii: because constant means, that something doesn't change. something to vary, or being variable means, that it changes. what is constant variable in that case? 2017-11-08T14:28:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:31:55Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-08T14:33:50Z wiselord joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:34:00Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T14:35:24Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:35:27Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:39:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:41:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:43:09Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:43:35Z Guest5192 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:43:43Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:44:10Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-08T14:47:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:47:11Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:49:07Z Devon: wget --no-parent fails to reject parent URLs nor other undesirables, e.g., huge files, query variants, fragments, etc. — is there one that just works, preferably in Lisp? 2017-11-08T14:51:27Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:51:50Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:52:23Z Guest5192 quit (K-Lined) 2017-11-08T14:52:35Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:53:36Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:56:26Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:56:35Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:57:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-08T14:58:52Z murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T14:59:52Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:00:01Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:01:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:01:47Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:02:02Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T15:03:10Z splittist: jackdaniel: CL uses the constant variable terminology http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#constant_variable 2017-11-08T15:04:12Z Quasus joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:04:49Z jackdaniel: I know, it always sounded like a paradox to me disregarding the language 2017-11-08T15:04:57Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:06:13Z mishoo__ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2017-11-08T15:06:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:07:55Z splittist: I guess it's because 'variable' is used to mean something other than, well, something that is 'variable' (: 2017-11-08T15:12:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:12:43Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:18:01Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T15:19:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:26:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:26:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:27:18Z zooey quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-08T15:28:11Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:31:11Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:31:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:31:24Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T15:31:33Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:33:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:34:15Z pjb: jackdaniel: the thing is that there's this saying in CS: constants won't, variables aren't. 2017-11-08T15:34:16Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:34:50Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:34:51Z pjb: jackdaniel: constants are made to be changed (and the program recompiled), while you should initialize variables, and never re-assign them (so they won't vary during execution). 2017-11-08T15:35:01Z pjb: functional programming style. 2017-11-08T15:36:07Z pjb: Furthermore, in the case of CL, defconstant sets the variable slot of the variable: (defconstant +foo+ 'bar) (symbol-value '+foo+) --> bar 2017-11-08T15:36:40Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T15:36:46Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:36:49Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:36:56Z pjb: The side effects specified for defconstant and defparameter are identical! 2017-11-08T15:37:00Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T15:37:13Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:37:33Z pjb: The only difference is that you cannot re-bind a constant variable, which you can add dynamic bindings for true variables. 2017-11-08T15:37:35Z Bicyclidine: no they aren't, defconstant can evaluate the value at compile time and defparameter is forbidden from doing so. 2017-11-08T15:38:08Z pjb: Right there's also this difference of time of evaluation of the initial value. 2017-11-08T15:39:21Z pjb: The side effects are the same, but they don't occur at the same time ;-) 2017-11-08T15:40:10Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:40:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:41:42Z Bicyclidine: that's fair. 2017-11-08T15:41:54Z Bicyclidine: pretty sure jackie d already knows most of this, though 2017-11-08T15:42:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:46:16Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:47:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:47:13Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:48:34Z pjb: We're also talking for the luckers ;-) 2017-11-08T15:49:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:50:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-08T15:52:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:53:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T15:56:37Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-08T16:02:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:03:27Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T16:04:02Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:13:14Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T16:14:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:15:48Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T16:16:30Z pmden_ is now known as pmden 2017-11-08T16:16:31Z pmden quit (Changing host) 2017-11-08T16:16:31Z pmden joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:19:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:19:30Z rocx quit (Quit: classes to go to) 2017-11-08T16:19:53Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-11-08T16:20:02Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 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White_Flame: does it stay updated as you add/remove new functions? 2017-11-08T16:33:01Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T16:33:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T16:33:27Z _death: why not (occur "^(def") 2017-11-08T16:33:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T16:36:05Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-08T16:37:26Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T16:38:25Z truename: White_Flame: Type "g" in occur to refresh 2017-11-08T16:40:24Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:40:25Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T16:41:22Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:41:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:43:53Z rumbler31: jmercouris: +1 2017-11-08T16:44:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:45:33Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-08T16:46:59Z rumbler31: man, never heard of occur mode until now 2017-11-08T16:47:50Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-08T16:50:01Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T16:50:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T16:50:03Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T16:50:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:50:59Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:51:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:54:17Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:55:00Z Devon: Emacs can show a tiny (one pixel per character) copy of your buffer off to the side which self-updates. How might you lay out your display to get non-intrusive live (occur "^(") output? Perhaps a fish-eye view with shrunken fonts above and below? 2017-11-08T16:55:42Z rumbler31: Devon: how do you make that first sentence a reality? 2017-11-08T16:55:51Z payphone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T16:56:28Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-11-08T16:56:42Z Devon: I haven't used it in ages. Horizontal split to get the sidebar, then shrink that window's font. 2017-11-08T16:56:59Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:01:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:07:16Z Devon left #lisp 2017-11-08T17:08:56Z nika quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T17:09:01Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:09:27Z nika_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-08T17:09:49Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:11:28Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:11:33Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:11:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:11:50Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:12:34Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T17:13:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:13:04Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T17:14:38Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:14:43Z Devon: rumbler31: (with-current-buffer (clone-indirect-buffer "*Tiny Sidebar*" t t) (text-scale-set -999)) ; 1 pixel/char sidebar mirrors current buffer 2017-11-08T17:15:29Z rumbler31: I had been trying to figure out how to set the font size of another window of a buffer, and I couldn't find that 2017-11-08T17:16:08Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:16:21Z rumbler31: ty 2017-11-08T17:17:03Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:17:37Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:17:42Z Quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:18:37Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:19:18Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:19:36Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:19:57Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:20:07Z jmercouris: asdf 2017-11-08T17:20:13Z jmercouris left #lisp 2017-11-08T17:20:22Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:20:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:20:31Z jmercouris: Devon: that is an interesting idea, not sure how to do that 2017-11-08T17:21:16Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T17:21:20Z pjb: Segwit2x is cancelled. 2017-11-08T17:21:44Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:24:13Z easye: pjb: Just like Liberal Democracy has been put on hold? 2017-11-08T17:25:47Z Devon left #lisp 2017-11-08T17:26:02Z pjb: for lack of concensus. So yes, just like. 2017-11-08T17:26:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:26:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:27:05Z Guest11164 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T17:27:31Z Guest11164 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:29:12Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:29:15Z Devon: jmercouris: ¿shouldn't this be on #Emacs instead? Try an indirect buffer in outline mode to show only definition lines and have mouse clicks Meta-. the definition. 2017-11-08T17:31:47Z Devon left #lisp 2017-11-08T17:31:54Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:32:29Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:32:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:32:48Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T17:35:07Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:36:31Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery) 2017-11-08T17:36:57Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:37:22Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:37:57Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:41:41Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T17:43:22Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:44:53Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:47:20Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T17:47:55Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:50:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:54:27Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:54:53Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:54:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T17:55:17Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T17:56:50Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-08T17:57:08Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? 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It also has a format you can use to specify the JSON representation of Lisp data where it would otherwise be ambiguous (I think it's called jsown?). My only 2017-11-08T18:43:06Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-11-08T18:43:08Z sukaeto: complaint is that sometimes when it encounters errors, it signals conditions with useless messages, making debugging somewhat more difficult. 2017-11-08T18:43:09Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-08T18:43:47Z Quasus joined #lisp 2017-11-08T18:43:54Z sukaeto: whoops, that got cut into two lines. Hopefully it remembers all of it. 2017-11-08T18:46:11Z Shinmera: It won't 2017-11-08T18:46:32Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-08T18:46:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-08T18:46:50Z jmercouris: 512 char limit afaik for irc 2017-11-08T18:47:10Z Shinmera: The actual char limit needs to be determined through experiment. 2017-11-08T18:47:25Z Shinmera: For the textual content of the message, that is. 2017-11-08T18:47:55Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T18:48:12Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T18:53:43Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-11-08T18:58:11Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:00:22Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:00:56Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:01:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:06:06Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-08T19:06:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:06:57Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:07:17Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-08T19:08:59Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:12:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:15:12Z nixfreak joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:15:25Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:15:37Z nixfreak: is learnlispthehardway.org down? 2017-11-08T19:17:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:17:09Z pjb: nixfreak: http://www.isitdownrightnow.com 2017-11-08T19:18:24Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:22:05Z shka_: good evening! 2017-11-08T19:23:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:23:22Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:23:26Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T19:23:45Z Ven is now known as Guest86124 2017-11-08T19:24:31Z Guest86124 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T19:25:00Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:27:57Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-08T19:28:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:29:32Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:30:36Z nixfreak: Does anyone know why its down ? 2017-11-08T19:31:28Z Shinmera: sjl: WASAPI native support is working now. CoreAudio next. 2017-11-08T19:31:43Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:36:34Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-11-08T19:42:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:44:21Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:44:41Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:46:52Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:47:04Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:47:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:49:47Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-08T19:51:01Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T19:52:38Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:54:25Z p_l: ehh, I love the faces of recruiters when they ask you "so, languages, I see Java and Python, which would you feel best at?" "Common Lisp, then maybe ...(not java/python)" 2017-11-08T19:54:59Z solene: p_l, do they know what common lisp is ? 2017-11-08T19:55:51Z p_l: possibly a bit, given that they had been involved at least tangentially in tech for a long time 2017-11-08T19:58:37Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:58:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T19:59:39Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-08T19:59:42Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:03:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:03:44Z manamex left #lisp 2017-11-08T20:05:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:07:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:08:22Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:09:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T20:12:15Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T20:13:55Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:25:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:28:55Z sjl: Shinmera: nice. I don't use Windows, but probably good to support it :) 2017-11-08T20:29:18Z Shinmera: If you want to make games it's kinda a requirement, yanno 2017-11-08T20:30:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-08T20:30:44Z sjl: I can make games just fine on not-windows. It's only if I want other people to *play* them that I need to worry about Windows :) 2017-11-08T20:30:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:31:14Z Shinmera: Exactly. 2017-11-08T20:33:35Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T20:36:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:36:45Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-08T20:37:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:37:36Z Ven is now known as Guest53140 2017-11-08T20:39:07Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-08T20:41:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T20:44:19Z jmercouris: Is there a nicer way to view information about the macro one is writing in the echo area/slime? E.g. as I am typing "(let ((xsdf)" It would be nice to say something like "(let (*binding1*" in the echo area 2017-11-08T20:45:21Z Bicyclidine: instead of just 'bindings'? 2017-11-08T20:45:37Z jmercouris: sjl Shinmera, I disagree, I think there's enough people on OSX and Linux to justify development costs 2017-11-08T20:45:41Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: Yeah, basically 2017-11-08T20:46:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T20:46:53Z Bicyclidine: what does that have to do with macros? 2017-11-08T20:47:34Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: Well, it appears perfectly fine for any non-expandable forms 2017-11-08T20:47:44Z Bicyclidine: ...what? 2017-11-08T20:47:50Z jmercouris: Let me rephrase it 2017-11-08T20:47:55Z Bicyclidine: but, i don't know how that would be accomplished. slime is smart enough to be more informative a little way into defmethod, but i don't know if that's generalizable 2017-11-08T20:48:24Z jmercouris: I can't move the cursor in a cond and have it tell me (*cond1*) (*body_cond1*) or anything like that 2017-11-08T20:48:48Z jmercouris: I'm not making a statement about the feasibility, I am only asking if it is possible 2017-11-08T20:49:19Z Bicyclidine: i dunno, probably. i'm still not sure i understand, though, since i don't see how macros are related at all. let (probably) isn't a macro. 2017-11-08T20:49:24Z Guest53140 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T20:51:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-08T20:53:39Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-08T20:56:45Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:03:21Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T21:03:38Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:04:30Z pseudonymous: possibly stupid question: roswell, Am I right in (roughly) equating it to a rvm (ruby), nvm (node), jabba (jdk) tool for managing CL implementations ? Are the other features used much ? Is it something I'd be wise to invest time in understanding ? 2017-11-08T21:06:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:06:36Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T21:07:34Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-11-08T21:07:49Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:08:18Z phoe: autoinstalling CL systems from Github 2017-11-08T21:08:27Z phoe: it is capable of automatically pulling projects via git from GitHub 2017-11-08T21:08:42Z phoe: afaik the syntax is like $ ros install phoe/phoe-toolbox or something 2017-11-08T21:09:36Z pseudonymous: So.... it's going to use quicklisp where it can and I have the ability to pull systems from GH if I want to ? (not entirely unlike golang's package manager?) 2017-11-08T21:10:27Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T21:10:31Z phoe: no no, it puts systems into quicklisp's local-projects directory 2017-11-08T21:10:35Z phoe: so QL is able to load them from there 2017-11-08T21:10:42Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:10:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-08T21:11:15Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:13:33Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:13:35Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T21:14:10Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:16:09Z pseudonymous: phoe: ah, I think I see, thanks :) 2017-11-08T21:16:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:17:20Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T21:17:42Z whoman: topic, SBCL 1.4.1 was some days ago 2017-11-08T21:19:13Z Jesin quit (Quit: rebooting) 2017-11-08T21:20:22Z Josh_2: sjl: Did you manage to implement the algorithm? 2017-11-08T21:21:20Z phoe: whoman: gasp, I posted about this on Reddit just now, thanks for the heads up 2017-11-08T21:22:31Z sjl: Josh_2: nah, I stopped after the stream. I'll poke around at it later -- got non-computer stuff to do tonight. 2017-11-08T21:22:34Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-11-08T21:24:59Z Josh_2: Well next time then 2017-11-08T21:29:42Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T21:30:55Z Josh_2: I've got to implement two algorithms for my Data Structures and Algorithms module, and I'm allowed to use CL. Anyone got any suggestions? 2017-11-08T21:32:15Z Bicyclidine: for... algorithms. 2017-11-08T21:32:27Z Bicyclidine: like they just said "hey, implement something"? 2017-11-08T21:32:29Z Josh_2: Yes. That was my mistake 2017-11-08T21:32:42Z Josh_2: Pretty much I'm allowed to implement whatever algorithms I want 2017-11-08T21:33:11Z Bicyclidine: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs.html pick two 2017-11-08T21:33:19Z pseudonymous: Josh_2: how far into your education are you ? (Probably ahead of class, due to dabbling with Lisp, but still) 2017-11-08T21:33:22Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T21:33:34Z Bicyclidine: addition chains are good 2017-11-08T21:33:50Z Bicyclidine: as is dancing links 2017-11-08T21:34:11Z Josh_2: In Scotland we study for four years, so 2nd year is like 1st year on a 3 year course 2017-11-08T21:34:52Z pseudonymous: Josh_2: four years for an undergraduate's/bachelor degree ? 2017-11-08T21:34:59Z Josh_2: undergrad 2017-11-08T21:35:21Z Josh_2: 1st year is about getting everyone to the same level I didn't have to do that 2017-11-08T21:36:22Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:36:47Z Ven is now known as Guest76170 2017-11-08T21:37:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:38:55Z pseudonymous: Josh_2: well, still think you might want to consult your teacher and such. The algorithms you pick should probably depend on the ILO's (intended learning outcomes) of the course and time given for the project (& the ECTS). That said, I implemented Dijkstra and A* pathfinding algorithms back when I had a course like that, so those might be do-able ? 2017-11-08T21:39:48Z Josh_2: A* is a suggested algorithm 2017-11-08T21:40:12Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T21:41:09Z Josh_2: ahh says "implement two different standard algorithms" I guess I could pick from "Introduction To Algorithms" 2017-11-08T21:41:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T21:42:39Z pseudonymous: Other shorter things might be various sorting algorithms (quick-sort, heap-sort, merge-sort) and such. But definitely talk to a teacher, you don't want something they consider too easy for you, but you also don't want to break your neck :P 2017-11-08T21:43:54Z Josh_2: Well I implemented merge-sort last year as one of the default labs. My grade from this module comes from implementing these 2 algorithms and giving a presentation about the algorithm and the data structures used. 2017-11-08T21:44:44Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:46:10Z Bicyclidine: imo neck breaking. 2017-11-08T21:46:21Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:46:57Z Josh_2: I'll learn the most if I break my neck 2017-11-08T21:47:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:48:29Z Shinmera: I implemented a bunch of algorithms for my class as practise. All I remember is that I hated implementing fibonacci heaps. 2017-11-08T21:49:37Z Shinmera: Oh hey I even put it online. https://github.com/Shinmera/complex 2017-11-08T21:49:56Z pseudonymous: Josh_2: again, comes down to the amount of time you're expected to spend. Is it an end of year project ? Do you have a week? two? Conceivably you could also try implenting a B+ tree, would be a datastructure and some assorted algorithms (delete, lookup, split). But really, you need to look at the time you'll have :) 2017-11-08T21:50:17Z Bicyclidine: just do something out of left field. spike sorting 2017-11-08T21:50:28Z pseudonymous: Shinmera: hey, come across your stuff sometimes. Do you mind telling me what you paid to attend the EU lisp symposium ? 2017-11-08T21:50:41Z Bicyclidine: "that's basically just PCA" whatever man 2017-11-08T21:51:04Z Guest76170 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T21:51:06Z Shinmera: pseudonymous: Typically it's 50.- for students. This year was more because of the colocation making everything suck more. Hopefully it'll be back to 50.- next year. 2017-11-08T21:51:38Z pseudonymous: Shinmera: you don't know how much it would be for a non-student ? Just a ballpark number 2017-11-08T21:51:46Z Shinmera: pseudonymous: I think it was 150.- 2017-11-08T21:51:51Z pseudonymous: EU? 2017-11-08T21:52:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T21:52:01Z pseudonymous: eur* 2017-11-08T21:52:50Z Shinmera: https://web.archive.org/web/20160204150440/http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/content-registration-full.html 2017-11-08T21:53:05Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T21:53:18Z pseudonymous: Shinmera: should've thought of that, thanks though :) 2017-11-08T21:53:20Z Shinmera: Learning to use archive.org is a pro tip 2017-11-08T21:53:39Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:54:04Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-08T21:54:54Z Shinmera: Also reminds me I need to implement the registration page for the new website. 2017-11-08T21:54:58Z Shinmera: Sigh, so much to do 2017-11-08T21:55:06Z blasut quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T21:56:43Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:57:53Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T21:58:04Z Josh_2: I've got till the 4th of December to have the algorithms and a presentation ready. 2017-11-08T21:58:39Z Josh_2: I like the idea of implementing a B+ Tree 2017-11-08T21:58:43Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:58:50Z Bicyclidine: you could do bitap, that's fun 2017-11-08T21:59:15Z jmercouris: Josh_2: Do some graph manipulation algorithms, maybe some centrality calculations 2017-11-08T21:59:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T21:59:39Z jmercouris: Josh_2: Or do something with lists, lisp is good at lists :D 2017-11-08T21:59:47Z Josh_2: Lisp is good at Lists :D 2017-11-08T22:01:16Z Josh_2: I have to explain why I use certain data structures. In my presentation I can put "Lisp is good at lists" 2017-11-08T22:01:40Z pseudonymous: I'd say "OK'ish" on those slides 2017-11-08T22:01:49Z pseudonymous: see what happens ? :) 2017-11-08T22:02:00Z Josh_2: Well it's faster than C++ at lists 2017-11-08T22:02:16Z ketralni` quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2017-11-08T22:02:29Z Josh_2: I see mathematical formulas like this https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/1861d26bc8ede4dc3ef1b9d1e9cd1eb5c2bcad73 and my brain says no. 2017-11-08T22:03:48Z Bicyclidine: it's just a sum, dog. 2017-11-08T22:03:50Z Shinmera: That's pretty simple stuff though. 2017-11-08T22:04:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:04:19Z Josh_2: For you it is pretty simple. 2017-11-08T22:05:00Z Bicyclidine: (loop for k from 1 summing (loop for j from 1 upto n summing (* (expt alpha k) (aref (matrix-expt A k) j i)))) 2017-11-08T22:06:23Z Bicyclidine: matrix exponentiation is fun to implement itself 2017-11-08T22:06:49Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T22:07:07Z Bicyclidine: you know it's good, cos the canonical paper is Nineteen Dubious Ways to Calculate etc 2017-11-08T22:07:51Z Shinmera: What O(x) are they down to now? 2017-11-08T22:08:34Z Bicyclidine: i'm not sure there are good general algorithms 2017-11-08T22:09:12Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly it was something like n^(2.4) 2017-11-08T22:09:12Z Bicyclidine: good as in, that don't fuck off to floating point error world on some pathogen 2017-11-08T22:09:42Z Bicyclidine: are you thinking of matrix multiplication? 2017-11-08T22:09:46Z Shinmera: Yes 2017-11-08T22:09:59Z jmercouris: Something something use the GPU instead 2017-11-08T22:10:07Z Bicyclidine: apparently it's ~2.372 2017-11-08T22:10:46Z Bicyclidine: "They show that if families of wreath products of Abelian groups with symmetric groups realise families of subset triples with a simultaneous version of the TPP, then there are matrix multiplication algorithms with essentially quadratic complexity." ah, well that makes perfect sense, 2017-11-08T22:11:23Z Shinmera: Oh yeah, I just thought of that over coffee 2017-11-08T22:11:34Z jmercouris: Really basic stuff here, what's next? 1+1? 2017-11-08T22:12:05Z Bicyclidine: a fast matrix multiplication might be interesting too 2017-11-08T22:12:12Z Bicyclidine: or fast integer multiplication, relatedly 2017-11-08T22:12:13Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Russell says hello 2017-11-08T22:12:29Z Josh_2: 1+1 is about my level of math 2017-11-08T22:12:58Z Shinmera: Josh_2: You sure about that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica 2017-11-08T22:13:25Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Who's Russel? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DGGcdZ4KYbA/T5FeDLPuJJI/AAAAAAAACKo/2ofTef2oC0w/s640/good-good-let-the-jimmies-rustle-through-you.png 2017-11-08T22:13:53Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Bertrand Russell. Also see what I just linked. 2017-11-08T22:14:22Z Bicyclidine: you could implement a decision procedure for Presburger arithmetic 2017-11-08T22:14:31Z Bicyclidine: doubly exponential, apparently 2017-11-08T22:14:53Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Ah yes, the classic, the original Rustler of Jimmies if you will 2017-11-08T22:14:56Z Josh_2: Yeah I'm not sure about that. 2017-11-08T22:15:38Z Shinmera: You could implement spaghetti sort with a physics simulation :^) 2017-11-08T22:15:56Z jmercouris: That's actually a really phenomenal idea 2017-11-08T22:16:07Z jmercouris: Implement a physics engine, and then create a turing machine using the physics engine 2017-11-08T22:16:23Z Josh_2: That sounds like my kind of project /s 2017-11-08T22:16:25Z jmercouris: an all mechanical turing machine, that would be fascinating 2017-11-08T22:16:30Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:16:43Z Bicyclidine: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity do an interpreter 2017-11-08T22:17:49Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T22:20:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:22:59Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:23:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:24:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:26:56Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:26:57Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:29:02Z Josh_2: B+ trees look like they could be implemented nicely with lists 2017-11-08T22:30:19Z jmercouris: All types of trees can be easily implemented via lists 2017-11-08T22:30:36Z Josh_2: Well that settles the lists in lisp thing then jmercouris 2017-11-08T22:30:57Z Josh_2: I'll ask if I can make a b+ trees and all the functions that go with it tomorrow 2017-11-08T22:31:01Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:31:32Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-08T22:31:49Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:32:00Z Josh_2: I've got to get better at math. Got to dedicate some time to Khan academy again 2017-11-08T22:32:07Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:32:48Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:35:20Z pfdietz_: Bicyclidine: I think hopes for a quadratic algorithm for matrix multiplication by that approach were dashed recently by the positive solution if the Erdos - szemeredi sunflower conjecture. 2017-11-08T22:35:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T22:36:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:36:52Z Ven is now known as Guest54836 2017-11-08T22:38:29Z pfdietz_ quit (Quit: Bye) 2017-11-08T22:38:42Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:39:07Z jmercouris: Why is "lemonodor fame" something to be sought? 2017-11-08T22:40:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:41:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:41:39Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-08T22:42:06Z Fade: well, once upon a time, there was this guy named lemonodor 2017-11-08T22:42:53Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-11-08T22:44:44Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-11-08T22:45:17Z Josh_2: Looking at Khan academy, in the summer I was working through 8th grade. 2017-11-08T22:45:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:45:35Z Josh_2: 58%, guess I got to pick up from where I left off. 2017-11-08T22:45:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-08T22:46:14Z jmercouris: Fade: But why should anyone care about this guy? 2017-11-08T22:46:31Z jmercouris: Fade: I've looked at the blog, I don't see what makes it that interesting 2017-11-08T22:46:41Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:47:35Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:47:35Z p_l: jmercouris: look at *old* entries? 2017-11-08T22:47:39Z Fade: he was before my time; I think it's a bit of tongue in cheek joking by the original authors of slime. 2017-11-08T22:48:03Z p_l: a bit of that was with how some Lisp projects would get shown on lemonodor's blog, iirc 2017-11-08T22:48:05Z jmercouris: Fade: So you are saying the blog was in fact nothing spectacular? It was being used ironically? 2017-11-08T22:48:23Z p_l: jmercouris: or was one of the few where your project might show up as "news" 2017-11-08T22:48:47Z Fade: I didn't say any of that. I'm saying everything I know is that lemonodor is a guy. I took the slime banner to be a joke. 2017-11-08T22:48:50Z jmercouris: p_l: did forums not exist at that time? 2017-11-08T22:49:13Z Fade: if he was at any point famous, he is not any more in the circles I travel 2017-11-08T22:49:37Z Fade: p_l sems to have the correct explanation 2017-11-08T22:50:19Z p_l: jmercouris: the only forums I could think of that would fit the timeframe (mind you, this is before *my* time as well), would be comp.lang.lisp and here 2017-11-08T22:51:07Z p_l: the various vendor-specific mailing lists are quite probably either less trafficked or trafficked by different bunch 2017-11-08T22:51:29Z jmercouris: Is comp.lang.lisp still active? 2017-11-08T22:51:29Z pfdietz_: Link for my previous comment: https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2016/05/17/polymath-10-emergency-post-5-the-erdos-szemeredi-sunflower-conjecture-is-now-proven/ 2017-11-08T22:51:30Z Guest54836 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:52:20Z pfdietz_: I gave up one Usenet ten years ago. 2017-11-08T22:52:34Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-08T22:53:12Z pfdietz_: Wiseman (lemonodor) seems to be into drones these days. 2017-11-08T22:53:32Z Shinmera: When I read cll about two years ago it was still somewhat active, but had its fair share of spam. 2017-11-08T22:53:50Z Shinmera: I stopped reading because the discussions didn't really engage me. 2017-11-08T22:56:27Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:56:29Z jmercouris: I take it the best forums these days are on reddit or in this channel? 2017-11-08T22:56:46Z Shinmera: I don't know about best, but that's where I am at least. 2017-11-08T22:57:15Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T22:57:24Z p_l: jmercouris: there's also at least one "normal" web forum 2017-11-08T22:58:18Z pillton: p_l: Where is that? 2017-11-08T22:59:07Z Xach: jmercouris: http://xach.livejournal.com/325276.html has some links 2017-11-08T22:59:14Z Xach: jmercouris: i think it is still reasonable 2017-11-08T22:59:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:59:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-08T22:59:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-08T22:59:48Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-11-08T23:00:30Z nixfreak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T23:01:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-08T23:01:06Z jmercouris: Xach: What is still reasonable? I don't understand 2017-11-08T23:01:19Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T23:01:46Z Xach: jmercouris: the information in that link is reasonably accurate even though it is a few years old. 2017-11-08T23:02:00Z p_l: pillton: lispforum.com 2017-11-08T23:02:05Z jmercouris: Ah yes, okay, I didn't know about that mailing list 2017-11-08T23:02:13Z jmercouris: also lispforum.com is hardly what I'd describe as active 2017-11-08T23:04:20Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-08T23:04:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-08T23:05:03Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-08T23:05:25Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-08T23:05:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-08T23:06:15Z pillton: p_l: Thanks. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-09T08:22:55Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:23:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:25:47Z josemanu1l joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:27:23Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-11-09T08:27:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T08:27:39Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:27:47Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:29:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T08:31:42Z myrkraverk: For postgres, I just use postmodern, but for mysql, is there a _the_ client library? I seem to find several alternatives online (or maybe the same in different disguises). 2017-11-09T08:32:32Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-09T08:32:46Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-09T08:33:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:34:44Z josemanu1l is now known as josemanuel 2017-11-09T08:35:23Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:37:48Z myrkraverk: Hmm, more importantly, how do I tell quicklisp where my mysql libraries/includes are? 2017-11-09T08:38:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T08:38:17Z loke`: myrkraverk: You can use CLSQL 2017-11-09T08:38:50Z myrkraverk: I know where my includes and libs are, but I don't know how to convey that info to quicklisp. 2017-11-09T08:39:30Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T08:39:52Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:44:31Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-11-09T08:44:37Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-09T08:44:56Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:45:53Z myrkraverk: And putting mysql_config in my path doesn't help either. 2017-11-09T08:46:10Z lrvy quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-11-09T08:47:30Z murii joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:49:46Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:51:08Z Shinmera: includes do not matter, and foreign libraries are not Ql's concern. 2017-11-09T08:52:20Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:53:27Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:53:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:54:50Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:55:45Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-09T08:56:49Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T08:57:13Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-09T08:59:29Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:01:35Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:04:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:05:11Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:05:13Z myrkraverk: Wel, then maybe my assumption that # has to do with foreign libraries is wrong. 2017-11-09T09:05:22Z myrkraverk: [Condition of type ASDF/BACKWARD-INTERFACE:OPERATION-ERROR] 2017-11-09T09:05:45Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T09:06:14Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:06:29Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:08:50Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:10:08Z myrkraverk: In any case, cl-mysql seems to have loaded. 2017-11-09T09:10:14Z myrkraverk: I can continue to experiment. 2017-11-09T09:12:08Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:14:50Z blasut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T09:15:16Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:15:49Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:15:58Z Trasformatore quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:20:56Z heisig joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:21:53Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:23:07Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:28:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:29:15Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:29:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:29:30Z Cymew_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:29:38Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T09:29:53Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:30:41Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-09T09:30:57Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:31:03Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-09T09:31:18Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:31:36Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:31:36Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:32:25Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:32:35Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T09:32:39Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:32:41Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T09:32:41Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-11-09T09:32:56Z Ziemas joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:34:14Z lieven joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:34:58Z galdor joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:37:43Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:37:48Z _death joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:37:48Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:38:02Z jackdaniel quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-09T09:38:10Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:40:06Z uint joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:41:29Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-09T09:42:52Z takitus is now known as takitus|afk 2017-11-09T09:45:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:46:40Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2017-11-09T09:46:40Z lieven joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:47:29Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T09:50:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-09T09:53:16Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T09:53:59Z DeadTrickster_: loke`, Hi, you are right 2017-11-09T09:54:20Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: What have you been up to? 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I've been thinking to writing it myself. always side-tracked :-( 2017-11-09T10:38:29Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-09T10:38:51Z vsync_ is now known as vsync 2017-11-09T10:39:14Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: Which code? 2017-11-09T10:39:21Z loke`: The elixir code? 2017-11-09T10:39:25Z DeadTrickster_: yep 2017-11-09T10:39:36Z angelo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T10:39:43Z loke`: https://github.com/lokedhs/potato_irc_server 2017-11-09T10:40:52Z DeadTrickster_: ah so it's a gateway for potato. I was more about bouncer. you know irccloud for the poor =)) 2017-11-09T10:42:48Z loke`: What is irccloud 2017-11-09T10:43:09Z DeadTrickster_: you know, the service kinda proxy 2017-11-09T10:43:12Z angelo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T10:43:21Z loke`: I don't know :-) 2017-11-09T10:43:23Z DeadTrickster_: you always stay connected and it saves your history 2017-11-09T10:43:27Z angelo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T10:43:35Z DeadTrickster_: and you can sync I believe, upload files 2017-11-09T10:44:06Z DeadTrickster_: irc bouncer as a service, obviously more but since I don't use it can't tell 2017-11-09T10:44:49Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T10:47:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-09T10:47:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-09T10:47:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-09T10:47:27Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T10:49:21Z angelo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T10:49:43Z Shinmera: It's just an IRC client over a web platform. 2017-11-09T10:50:08Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T10:51:55Z angelo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T10:52:05Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-09T10:55:35Z DeadTrickster_: not really, you can use any client AFAIK 2017-11-09T10:56:52Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T10:58:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-09T10:59:58Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:01:10Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:02:52Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T11:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T11:05:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:06:39Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-09T11:10:02Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:13:32Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T11:17:06Z Cymew_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T11:17:22Z mfiano: Within an asdf definition, how different is it to user (:file "some/dir/file") instead of (:module "some/dir" :components ((:file "file"))) ? 2017-11-09T11:17:28Z mfiano: use* 2017-11-09T11:17:28Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T11:17:38Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:17:38Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T11:17:48Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:17:54Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:17:59Z jackdaniel: mfiano: module creates a separate component 2017-11-09T11:18:04Z jackdaniel: each asd system is a tree of components 2017-11-09T11:18:15Z jackdaniel: so you put another tree node between the root and the leaf 2017-11-09T11:18:33Z mfiano: Does that grant me any privileges for a simple project? 2017-11-09T11:19:26Z jackdaniel: I don't think modules are very useful for simple projects, but I'm sure many people have different point of view on that 2017-11-09T11:20:04Z mfiano: Ok thanks 2017-11-09T11:20:48Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:22:00Z emacsoma` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T11:22:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:22:32Z dec0n__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T11:22:52Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:22:58Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:23:17Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T11:24:48Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:32:08Z Shinmera: One problem with modules is that, by default, you can't depend-on components that aren't in its own sub-tree. 2017-11-09T11:33:50Z Shinmera: But that only really hits you when you start to have complex dependencies. 2017-11-09T11:33:55Z Shinmera: Like here: https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/trial.asd 2017-11-09T11:34:46Z jackdaniel: to me limiting depends-on to sibling nodes is more of a feature 2017-11-09T11:35:56Z Shinmera: To me it is not because how I lay out my code in a way that is sensible to my brain is not necessarily the same way in which the dependencies between components flow. 2017-11-09T11:36:56Z Shinmera: For example in the above, it seems sensible to have a module for the separate asset types. Some of the features the assets need are more general though, and thus should be in the root directory. 2017-11-09T11:37:18Z Shinmera: So, I already have an upwards dependency. 2017-11-09T11:38:10Z Shinmera: Similarly some features of the engine need some assets to work, but are logically not a sub-part of the assets, so they should not be part of the assets folder, but do have to depend on components within it. 2017-11-09T11:38:25Z Shinmera: So you have downward dependencies. 2017-11-09T11:41:43Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T11:43:36Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:49:21Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T11:51:11Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-09T11:53:10Z angelo_: hi 2017-11-09T11:53:17Z angelo_ is now known as Trasformatore 2017-11-09T11:53:19Z Trasformatore: hi 2017-11-09T11:53:40Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-09T11:53:45Z Trasformatore: is anyone experiencing problem quickloading iterate with sbcl 1.4.1? 2017-11-09T11:53:59Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:01:32Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T12:05:08Z Trasformatore: :( 2017-11-09T12:08:09Z jackdaniel: patience is a virtue 2017-11-09T12:08:14Z jackdaniel: I don't have 1.4.1 2017-11-09T12:08:17Z jackdaniel: (yet) 2017-11-09T12:08:37Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:08:43Z Trasformatore: lol 2017-11-09T12:08:48Z Trasformatore: on ecl it works :) 2017-11-09T12:09:08Z Josh_2: Gentoo stable is still 1.3.11 2017-11-09T12:09:14Z jackdaniel: ecl has slower release cycle 2017-11-09T12:09:24Z Trasformatore: but it works :) 2017-11-09T12:09:39Z jackdaniel: no wonder it works *right now*, but I'm glad to hear that 2017-11-09T12:09:46Z Trasformatore: me too 2017-11-09T12:17:51Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:20:47Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:22:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T12:23:42Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T12:26:42Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:28:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:31:12Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:32:49Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T12:36:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-09T12:36:31Z scymtym: Trasformatore: what happens when you try to quickload iterate? 2017-11-09T12:39:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-09T12:39:53Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It doesn't load into CLISP now. 2017-11-09T13:43:33Z Trasformatore: :( 2017-11-09T13:44:00Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-09T13:44:05Z Trasformatore: Shinmera, mezzanooo! 2017-11-09T13:45:12Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: that would be me. I plan to revert this change (given spare time, probably before next ecl release) 2017-11-09T13:45:16Z jackdaniel: sorry about that 2017-11-09T13:45:22Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-09T13:45:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T13:46:36Z jackdaniel: that was in a fire of arranging test files in directories (instead of a flat structure) 2017-11-09T13:49:35Z Shinmera: logical pathnames considered harmful? 2017-11-09T13:49:48Z pjb: pfdietz: then there's a bug in clisp! Please report it. 2017-11-09T13:49:57Z pjb: Shinmera: nope logical pathnames are good. 2017-11-09T13:50:06Z pjb: physical pathnames on the other hand… 2017-11-09T13:50:30Z jackdaniel: logica pathnames are underspecified 2017-11-09T13:50:34Z jackdaniel: logical pathnames are underspecified 2017-11-09T13:51:00Z jackdaniel: that's why they should not be used on such code as ansi-tests – less risky features to load and run tests means better 2017-11-09T13:51:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T13:51:14Z jackdaniel: for one, you want to be able to test how conformant are incomplete implementations 2017-11-09T13:51:42Z jmercouris: I've already posted on CCL, but can anyone help me decipher this error? https://gist.github.com/31151d58e724ecea7e1f12421c405863 2017-11-09T13:51:43Z jackdaniel: so in this particular case they are harmful indeed 2017-11-09T13:56:22Z pjb: logical pathnames are not undefspecified. 2017-11-09T13:56:37Z pjb: all the logical pathname operations are clearly specified. 2017-11-09T13:56:54Z jackdaniel: but the fact whenever they are available at compilation time when assigned toplevel is not 2017-11-09T13:57:00Z jackdaniel: for instance 2017-11-09T13:57:02Z pjb: What's not specified are the extensions (eg. using lowercase logical hostnames), or the physical pathnames. 2017-11-09T13:57:33Z pjb: jackdaniel: I think it is, considering the compilation environment vs. the execution environment. 2017-11-09T13:58:05Z pjb: ie. you have to defined your logical host at compilation/read time too! 2017-11-09T13:58:45Z jackdaniel: either way they are not a good fit for software, which is meant to verify how incomplete implementation is 2017-11-09T13:59:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T13:59:46Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-09T14:05:33Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:06:30Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:06:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:08:02Z Tazy joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:12:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T14:15:31Z nixfreak joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:15:32Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:17:23Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:27:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:30:55Z nixfreak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T14:32:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-09T14:34:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:34:58Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-09T14:35:51Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Back then it did find some things. https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/bugs/search/?q=pfdietz 2017-11-09T14:54:48Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T14:54:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T14:57:31Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:00:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:02:18Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:02:36Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:04:50Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:04:59Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T15:05:03Z nika_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:05:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:05:16Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-09T15:05:37Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:05:58Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:07:18Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:09:27Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:10:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:11:51Z nzambe joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:14:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:15:13Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:15:22Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:15:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:19:09Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T15:21:32Z murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:24:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:26:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:28:41Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:31:41Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:32:27Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:33:06Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T15:35:44Z jmercouris: What's a good way to load assets (js), that I wish to distribute with my lisp code? 2017-11-09T15:35:59Z jmercouris: I would like it to be portable across my code loading via the repl, or as a standalone binary on OSX or Linux 2017-11-09T15:36:05Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:37:35Z Shinmera: (defvar *here* #.(make-pathname :name NIL :type NIL :defaults (or *compile-file-pathname* *load-pathname* (error "Whoops")))) (defun source-path (path) (merge-pathnames path *here*)) 2017-11-09T15:38:22Z Shinmera: That's for when it's distributed as a library. When you want to do binary deployment you need to make up your own scheme, or use the facilities provided by something like Deploy. 2017-11-09T15:38:46Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Is there a way to have a load fallback type scenario where it tries to load from several paths? 2017-11-09T15:39:04Z Shinmera: I mean you're asking software questions. The answer is yes. 2017-11-09T15:39:20Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Is there a built in function to attempt to load an asset with several fallbacks? 2017-11-09T15:39:26Z Shinmera: No 2017-11-09T15:39:41Z Shinmera: There's a function to test whether a file is around. 2017-11-09T15:39:44Z Shinmera: clhs PROBE-FILE 2017-11-09T15:39:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_probe_.htm 2017-11-09T15:39:44Z jmercouris: Ok, thanks for the information, I know how I'll do it now 2017-11-09T15:39:46Z jmercouris: you probe-file 2017-11-09T15:39:53Z jmercouris: s/you/yeah 2017-11-09T15:42:55Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:43:27Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:44:31Z malice joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:46:43Z malice: Why is paste.lisp.org disabled? 2017-11-09T15:47:01Z jmercouris: malice: spammers, apparently 2017-11-09T15:47:42Z malice: That's too bad. 2017-11-09T15:48:17Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:48:38Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:51:51Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-09T15:54:32Z malice: I'm having trouble with my macro; I'm trying to define a macro that will define another macro(since all the macros I want to write are similar). The code is here: http://ix.io/C7o 2017-11-09T15:55:20Z malice: Now the problem is that during an invocation of the defrest/get macro, the output of create-rest-function-name-from-path is treated as a variable(it returns symbol) and attempted to be evaluated, which obviously fails 2017-11-09T15:55:32Z malice: but with the "original macro" in the comment, there's no such problem 2017-11-09T15:55:42Z malice: I'm not sure why it's not working. 2017-11-09T15:56:01Z Bike: so the commented version is a hand written correct version? 2017-11-09T15:56:15Z malice: yes 2017-11-09T15:56:18Z malice: The previous one that works. 2017-11-09T15:56:26Z malice: And I tried to write a macro basing on the hand written one 2017-11-09T15:56:42Z Bike: okay, so compare it to (macroexpand-1 '(define-rest-macro :get)) and see what the problem is 2017-11-09T15:57:11Z jackdaniel: C-c M-e for slime inline macroexpansion 2017-11-09T15:57:39Z jackdaniel: luis: awesome feature I have to say (macrostepper) 2017-11-09T15:59:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2017-11-09T16:01:24Z malice: Well, I guess I don't need the defview at all. Thanks. 2017-11-09T16:01:45Z malice: By the way, the macroexpansion of this shows ,:get at the place of ,,method 2017-11-09T16:01:57Z malice: but if I remove one , then I get ,method which is wrong 2017-11-09T16:02:06Z malice: why is there another , left? 2017-11-09T16:02:26Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:03:04Z Devon: When is a sequence neither list nor vector? 2017-11-09T16:03:12Z Bike: ,:get should be harmless 2017-11-09T16:03:16Z Bike: Devon: implementation extension 2017-11-09T16:03:55Z malice: Bike: I know, but I'm just curious why it isn't a simple :get 2017-11-09T16:04:17Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:04:41Z Devon: Bike: Which? 2017-11-09T16:05:18Z Bike: you wrote ,,method, so there are two commas, naturally. when you get your form back it still has a backquote in it, and the comma for it hasn't been resolved 2017-11-09T16:05:21Z Bike: Devon: which what? 2017-11-09T16:05:37Z beach: Devon: You might want to read this one: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ilc2007/sequences-20070301.pdf 2017-11-09T16:06:45Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:10:40Z nixfreak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:11:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:12:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:14:09Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:14:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:15:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:17:35Z rocx quit (Quit: classes) 2017-11-09T16:20:37Z fikka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:21:09Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-09T16:21:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:24:06Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:24:28Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T16:24:52Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:25:12Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:28:12Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:30:37Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T16:30:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:33:00Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:33:54Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:34:01Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:35:39Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T16:41:32Z aeth: Idea for paste.lisp.org, if whoever runs it is here. Why not give temporary authorization to post there via a cookie via a URL sent by an IRC bot that lives on all of the Lisp and Scheme IRC channels? 2017-11-09T16:41:56Z aeth: That would be much harder to abuse with spambots than the current numeric code system 2017-11-09T16:42:37Z aeth: i.e. get a session by PMing the bot (or just messaging the bot, but the bot would respond with PM) and a URL the bot gives out gives you permission to post. 2017-11-09T16:43:03Z aeth: And there would now be a link between poster and Freenode IRC name. 2017-11-09T16:43:13Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:44:09Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:45:20Z aeth: e.g. https://example.com/foo/11BB5C22AE9EF6 2017-11-09T16:46:17Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:47:56Z fikka_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-09T16:50:01Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:50:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T16:50:38Z Bike: i think you're supposed to say such things on the common lisp dot net irc channel 2017-11-09T16:51:07Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-09T16:52:08Z Lord_Nightmare: so, the idea is you try to paste something on paste.lisp.org and the paste site says "please pm this verification code to one of the irc channel bots: " and you paste it to the bot, which sends a link back to you? 2017-11-09T16:52:15Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T16:54:48Z _rumbler31: ok I'm sure that this has been asked before and I apologize, but I want to guarantee that all my asd systems get recompiled 2017-11-09T16:55:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T16:56:35Z _rumbler31: iow I'm testing with a new version of a lisp image and I want to make sure that everything is fresh in order to hunt down a bug 2017-11-09T16:57:38Z Bike: :force :all i think 2017-11-09T16:59:38Z Shinmera: Lord_Nightmare: More like you ask the bot to paste and it gives you an url with a one-use token that's valid to paste with for a while. 2017-11-09T17:00:06Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:01:00Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-09T17:02:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:03:22Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:05:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:05:10Z blasut_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:08:49Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:14:51Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:15:11Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:16:24Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:24:27Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:28:34Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T17:28:48Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:29:53Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T17:30:35Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:30:56Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:32:09Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T17:32:29Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T17:32:49Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:34:48Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:35:13Z cioran89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T17:35:26Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:35:27Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:38:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:40:06Z _rumbler31: read "configuring where asdf stores compiled files" and I can't make heads or tails of it. Even the api description doesn't suggest what to do to answer the question, "where are you putting the fasl files for this specific lisp image right now" 2017-11-09T17:40:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:41:33Z _rumbler31: apropos output-translations seems to have pointed me in a direction 2017-11-09T17:41:46Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:45:33Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:46:16Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:52:07Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day :D 2017-11-09T17:54:16Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-09T17:54:53Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T17:55:05Z edgar-rft: The future regulates universal life. 2017-11-09T17:57:47Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:58:14Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T17:58:21Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-11-09T17:58:44Z sukaeto: raynold: you're the best . . . I want to say "troll", but I'm not sure that's even the right word. Please keep up the good work, sir. 2017-11-09T17:59:36Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:04:50Z sebastien_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-09T18:05:32Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:05:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:11:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:11:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:17:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:20:00Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T18:20:38Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:21:18Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T18:21:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:28:47Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:34:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:37:23Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:38:19Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T18:39:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:47:27Z Autolycus joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:48:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:49:04Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:49:10Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:52:09Z Josh_2: What is a pretty simple graphing library? I want to see a nested list as a tree. 2017-11-09T18:52:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:53:07Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:53:51Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-09T18:54:14Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:56:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:58:41Z edgar-rft: Josh_2, probably graphviz is what you want. There are several CL interfaces: 2017-11-09T18:58:59Z Shinmera: If it's just a tree and lists, you could use your editor and newlines :) 2017-11-09T18:59:11Z Josh_2: Yeah I could do that Shinmera 2017-11-09T18:59:22Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T18:59:42Z Bike: there's https://github.com/cbaggers/draw-cons-tree if you mean small stuff and don't need an image file 2017-11-09T19:04:03Z Josh_2: That'll do for now Bike thanks. I've saved that link for later thanks edgar-rft 2017-11-09T19:04:28Z [k00l]px joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:04:29Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:04:51Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:05:51Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T19:11:56Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-09T19:12:12Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:15:51Z nixfreak joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:16:56Z nixfreak: Does anyone know of or have updated tutorials for Machine learning ? what libraries should be used? 2017-11-09T19:20:16Z shrdlu68: nixfreak: Probably MGL 2017-11-09T19:20:24Z tomlukeywood1 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:22:46Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-09T19:26:15Z Josh_2: So I managed to make Emacs repl read only.. This has not happened before. I can delete previous input but I cannot input anything new. 2017-11-09T19:30:27Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb) 2017-11-09T19:30:38Z eudoxia: the lower-left corner of the buffer should have a line that looks something like -:--- 2017-11-09T19:30:46Z eudoxia: the second dash there is the writeable toggle 2017-11-09T19:31:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:32:07Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:33:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:34:40Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | SBCL 1.4.0, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 2017-11-09T19:35:36Z pmden quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:36:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:37:35Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:38:55Z tomlukeywood1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-09T19:39:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T19:40:01Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:41:49Z pmden joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:41:49Z pmden quit (Changing host) 2017-11-09T19:41:49Z pmden joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:43:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:44:35Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:45:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:46:42Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T19:46:54Z fouric: =b 1 2017-11-09T19:47:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:47:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:49:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:53:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:54:36Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-09T19:55:52Z tomlukeywood quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T19:56:55Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:01:07Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:05:38Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:06:56Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:08:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:09:06Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:09:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:11:08Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T20:11:12Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:12:39Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:13:10Z kmb quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-09T20:13:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:14:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:17:58Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:18:40Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T20:22:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:22:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:23:10Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:27:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:28:25Z tomlukeywood left #lisp 2017-11-09T20:29:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:31:27Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:32:07Z kmb quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-09T20:34:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:37:32Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:37:34Z fiveop quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-09T20:37:45Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-09T20:38:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:40:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:40:33Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:42:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:43:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:45:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:45:26Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T20:45:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:47:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:47:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:47:48Z z0d joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:48:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:50:39Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-09T20:50:40Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T20:51:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:53:35Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:53:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-09T20:54:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T20:57:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:00:10Z Murii quit (Quit: Byee.) 2017-11-09T21:01:37Z python476 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:01:42Z python476: 'hello 2017-11-09T21:01:58Z python476: I'm looking for nice examples of reader macros 2017-11-09T21:02:15Z python476: (I read the json one on github so far) 2017-11-09T21:02:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:06:12Z _rumbler31: I'm playing around with dynamic-extend declarations in some code. I'm having a hard time measuring if they're taking effect 2017-11-09T21:06:17Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T21:06:21Z _rumbler31: it seems like the code takes the same amount of time and space to execute when I add in the declarations and recompile, as when I remove them and recompile 2017-11-09T21:06:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:07:05Z _rumbler31: I assume that the case I'm testing is so trivial that it is simply being optimized away for me 2017-11-09T21:07:36Z [k00l]px quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T21:08:29Z Bike: what are you testing? and what implementation? 2017-11-09T21:08:33Z Bike: python476: cl-interpol? 2017-11-09T21:09:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:12:31Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:14:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:14:22Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:15:49Z _rumbler31: Bike: I'm on ccl at the moment, following http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm 2017-11-09T21:16:04Z _rumbler31: implementing zap and using time on it while watching system monitor for memory usage 2017-11-09T21:16:16Z _rumbler31: removing the declarations, recompiliing, rerunning 2017-11-09T21:19:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:20:08Z Bike: hm, unfortunately i don't know what ccl does 2017-11-09T21:20:27Z Bike: but dynamic extent doesn't reduce memory usage unless it can move things to a register. it's just that the memory is on the stack instaed of the heap. 2017-11-09T21:22:43Z _rumbler31: well i'll take suggestions for other implementations. I would also expect to see very little GC activity if dynamic-extent were in place 2017-11-09T21:22:58Z _rumbler31: right, watching external system monitor wouldn't show me a difference in memory usage 2017-11-09T21:23:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:24:04Z Bike: i only asked because sbcl is very explicit about what it does 2017-11-09T21:24:11Z _rumbler31: which is what 2017-11-09T21:24:19Z Bike: http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Dynamic_002dextent-allocation 2017-11-09T21:24:42Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:28:53Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:29:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:32:49Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:33:51Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:33:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:37:29Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:45:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:49:01Z _rumbler31: so whats special about this dynamic-extent distinction. If I initialize and use a variable wholly inside some function and don't return any of them at the end of the call, with the exception of potentially allowing large vectors and such to blow the stack, wouldn't dynamic-extent behavior be preferablly desired? 2017-11-09T21:49:29Z _rumbler31: is the declaration just notional, s.t. if you later decide to modify the function in a way that violates the constraints, then you'll be notified? 2017-11-09T21:50:10Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T21:50:23Z _rumbler31: or is there definitely a use case for having a variable be heap allocated even if there is no apparent accessibility to it outside of the function? 2017-11-09T21:50:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T21:50:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:52:58Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-09T21:54:06Z Bike: the compiler might not be able to tell that the value is dynamic extent. the declaration is a hint to the compiler. 2017-11-09T21:54:15Z Bike: it's about values, not variables, which is why it's nontrivial to determine. 2017-11-09T21:54:26Z aeth: _rumbler31: when it works, it's good. 2017-11-09T21:54:36Z aeth: There are lots of ways for it to not work 2017-11-09T21:54:47Z _rumbler31: what are some ways it doesn't work? 2017-11-09T21:55:23Z aeth: Accidentally use its value somewhere else is one. You can pass it from foo into some function bar, which can then have some global side effect that's not desirable. 2017-11-09T21:55:32Z _rumbler31: and Bike what do you mean "its about values" 2017-11-09T21:55:34Z aeth: But most of the time, SBCL will just warn that it can't declare it dynamic extent 2017-11-09T21:56:12Z Bike: _rumbler31: dynamic-extent declarations pertain to the values bound to a variable, rather than the variables themselves 2017-11-09T21:56:30Z _rumbler31: oh, like, foo makes A and a gets passed to bar which adds it to some heap object, so it could live beyond the execution of foo 2017-11-09T21:56:32Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:57:04Z Bike: yeah. 2017-11-09T21:57:41Z aeth: (defun foo () (let ((l (list 1 2 3 4 5))) (declare (dynamic-extent l)) (car l))) ; legal and works in SBCL 2017-11-09T21:57:49Z aeth: (defun my-car (list) (let ((x (car list))) x)) ; replace car with my-car and it still works 2017-11-09T21:57:51Z dmiles: small related question if a function is passed a cons.. and that cons is modified.. that moidification is expected outside the function? 2017-11-09T21:57:57Z _rumbler31: so if foo and bar both declare dynamic extent for A as it gets passed along, then sbcl should be able to trust that A can be stack allocated? 2017-11-09T21:58:08Z Bike: actually i think that's illegal, aeth. 2017-11-09T21:58:39Z Bike: dmiles: sure. (note that PUSHing to a variable does not modify a cons) 2017-11-09T21:58:49Z Bike: _rumbler31: i don't know if it's that smart, but yes. 2017-11-09T21:59:01Z aeth: now here comes the tricky part: (defun my-car (list) (let ((x (car list))) (defparameter *foo* (cdr list)) x)) 2017-11-09T21:59:11Z aeth: (defun foo () (let ((l (list 1 2 3 4 5))) (declare (dynamic-extent l)) (my-car l))) ; uh oh 2017-11-09T21:59:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T21:59:33Z _rumbler31: yea I see 2017-11-09T21:59:42Z aeth: I lucked out and my *foo* is NIL, but who knows what it could be? If it's valid at all 2017-11-09T22:00:20Z aeth: I should expect *foo* to be (2 3 4 5) though, so even that's not desirable 2017-11-09T22:00:26Z dmiles: Bike: actually that was going to be one of my next questions.. :) 2017-11-09T22:01:24Z dmiles: about PUSH/PUSHNEW 2017-11-09T22:01:43Z aeth: oh, oops, I forgot to update my my-car 2017-11-09T22:02:03Z aeth: This is the fun that I get in *foo* instead of (2 3 4 5) because of dynamic extent: (70368560901760 . #) 2017-11-09T22:02:24Z Bike: dmiles: (push x y) macroexpands into something like (setq y (cons x y)), so no cons is modified, just the variable binding. 2017-11-09T22:03:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:03:48Z _rumbler31: I mean, so even aeth's first example is illegal 2017-11-09T22:03:52Z aeth: _rumbler31: basically, SBCL trusts it completely so you can only declare something dynamic extent if you have full control over everything you call from that point on 2017-11-09T22:03:56Z _rumbler31: returing the car of a list declared dynamic-extent 2017-11-09T22:04:05Z aeth: No, becuase the car is an atom 2017-11-09T22:04:05Z Bike: i think it is illegal, yes. 2017-11-09T22:04:08Z aeth: Is it? 2017-11-09T22:04:08Z lnostdal quit (Quit: https://www.QuantAtaraxia.pw/) 2017-11-09T22:04:13Z Bike: there's no rule about atoms versus non atoms 2017-11-09T22:04:20Z Bike: i mean, practically speaking it will work since it's just a fixnum. 2017-11-09T22:04:23Z aeth: But there's no way to copy-fixnum 2017-11-09T22:04:34Z Bike: irrelevant 2017-11-09T22:04:37Z dmiles: Bike: ah, i hading thought about it but variables are places? 2017-11-09T22:04:41Z jstoddard joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:04:46Z dmiles: hadnt* 2017-11-09T22:04:47Z Bike: variables are a kind of place, yes. 2017-11-09T22:04:56Z _rumbler31: I mean thats the whole point right? if you don't put the list elements on the stack you still have to clean them up before you leave the scope 2017-11-09T22:05:11Z _rumbler31: if you do, then you can simply jump somewhere and you don't need to clean up anything 2017-11-09T22:05:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:06:58Z _rumbler31: well, or what? 2017-11-09T22:06:58Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:07:06Z Bike: if there was no dynamic-extent declaration the list would just go on the heap and the garbage collector would take care of it whenever. 2017-11-09T22:07:46Z Bike: fixnums probably don't exist as objects with a memory identity so their storage isn't important. 2017-11-09T22:08:24Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-09T22:08:36Z aeth: Is dynamic extent recursive? I don't think it is. So e.g. a list of double-floats probably would heap-allocate double float objects (but a specialized array of double-floats wouldn't?) 2017-11-09T22:09:13Z Bike: it is recursive, for values that are otherwise inaccessible 2017-11-09T22:10:00Z _rumbler31: so for the sake of argument, if they were structures or a class object or a bignum, a list of them declared dynamic extent means that the memory used for them is on the stack, and that no cleanup needs done. 2017-11-09T22:10:03Z Bike: as in, if you have (let ((x (list (cons ...) y))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) ...), the list can be stack allocated and the cons can be but y is whatever. 2017-11-09T22:10:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:10:31Z Bike: _rumbler31: means that the compiler could do that if it chose to. 2017-11-09T22:10:31Z aeth: _rumbler31: Probably implementation-specific. Test with SBCL and see? 2017-11-09T22:11:13Z _rumbler31: aeth: coming full circle, how do I test such a thing, when I dissassemble, what would I see 2017-11-09T22:12:35Z aeth: _rumbler31: With SBCL, allocations are (afaik) always commented 2017-11-09T22:12:39Z aeth: in the disassembly 2017-11-09T22:12:56Z Bike: if you try (lambda (x y) (let ((l (cons x y))) (+ (car l) (cdr l)))) you'll see different disassemblies on sbcl, for l dynamic extent versus not 2017-11-09T22:13:28Z salv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T22:13:35Z aeth: sorry, not all allocations, heap allocations 2017-11-09T22:14:00Z Bike: it might just not allocate at all with dynamic-extent, not sure. 2017-11-09T22:14:22Z Bike: nope, it's different from (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) anyway... 2017-11-09T22:16:01Z _rumbler31: well... I see alloc comments with non-declared version 2017-11-09T22:16:10Z _rumbler31: and none such with the declaration added 2017-11-09T22:16:34Z _rumbler31: so it doesn't even know what types x and y could be 2017-11-09T22:16:52Z Bike: what do types have to do with it 2017-11-09T22:16:57Z _rumbler31: exactly 2017-11-09T22:17:48Z _rumbler31: er wait 2017-11-09T22:17:55Z _rumbler31: i'm just making a list of the arguments 2017-11-09T22:18:37Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:19:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:19:41Z _rumbler31: i think the consensus is that if sbcl can determine that a value has dynamic-extent, then it can safely use stack memory to allocate it, whether its an object, a fixnum, a double-float, whatever 2017-11-09T22:20:16Z aeth: safely as long as any function that you call with that uses it safely, too 2017-11-09T22:21:17Z Bike: uh, sure, if it can rightly determine an object will have dynamic extent it can do whatever, no problem. 2017-11-09T22:23:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:23:35Z _rumbler31: thanks all 2017-11-09T22:32:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:37:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:37:49Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-11-09T22:38:38Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-09T22:39:28Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:39:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:41:34Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-11-09T22:42:57Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:43:12Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:43:22Z dxtr: What'd be the most idiomatic way to work with 2d and 3d vector? For example I want to implement a vector normalization function but I'd like it to only work with 2d and 3d vectors 2017-11-09T22:46:57Z Autolycus quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-09T22:47:27Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:47:39Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:49:56Z lisp_guest: dxtr, in the context of vectors, "dimension" is usually represented as a 1d array or a tuple of numbers 2017-11-09T22:50:16Z lisp_guest: so just a basic 1d array or a list of the vector's components i guess? 2017-11-09T22:50:42Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T22:52:32Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:53:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:54:18Z Shinmera: or a struct 2017-11-09T22:54:55Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-11-09T22:55:01Z Shinmera: Anyway, there's already like 10 vector math libraries out there. 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2017-11-10T04:34:20Z dmiles: wasnt sure how good your prolog chops are 2017-11-10T04:35:42Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-10T04:36:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T04:38:06Z dmiles: most of it is translated automatically from lisp files.. but there are basics and prims Prolog like.. https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/pnames.pl#L161-L198 2017-11-10T04:38:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T04:41:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T04:42:19Z dmiles: heh looking at it over the web i can see a few bugs .. spot any? 2017-11-10T04:43:15Z dmiles: like line 151 should not call string upper 2017-11-10T04:45:52Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T04:46:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T04:46:56Z oleo: nope dmiles, i can't contribute to that, i'm not that advanced neither in prolog nor in common-lisp yet.... 2017-11-10T04:47:53Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-11-10T04:51:31Z dmiles: right on, oleo. 2017-11-10T04:51:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T04:51:44Z dmiles: Also I extend this offer to anyone whom knows Prolog. 2017-11-10T04:52:05Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-10T04:54:32Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-10T04:55:26Z quazimodo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-11-10T04:55:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-10T04:57:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T04:57:41Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T05:01:53Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:02:44Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:07:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:08:05Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:11:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:12:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:15:47Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:16:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:17:10Z shenghi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T05:17:25Z shenghi joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:23:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:25:29Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T05:26:02Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:27:32Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:27:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:28:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:29:34Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T05:32:52Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:32:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:32:58Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T05:33:42Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:44:13Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-10T05:47:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:48:26Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:49:51Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:51:52Z asarch: Does Lisp support concurrence? 2017-11-10T05:52:22Z beach: asarch: It's not in the standard, but most implementations have threads. 2017-11-10T05:52:29Z asarch: I mean, does X3J13 support it? 2017-11-10T05:52:36Z asarch: Thank you beach 2017-11-10T05:52:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T05:54:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:57:11Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:58:14Z beach: asarch: No, it's not in the standard. 2017-11-10T05:58:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T05:58:34Z asarch: I see 2017-11-10T06:01:05Z beach: What typically happens in situations like this is that someone writes a "compatibility system" that hides all implementation-specific details behind some common interface. In this case the system is called Bordeaux treads. 2017-11-10T06:01:09Z beach: threads, even. 2017-11-10T06:03:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:03:46Z asarch: Ok 2017-11-10T06:04:48Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T06:06:07Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T06:06:13Z asarch: Since you speak the language of love, French, may I ask you an off-topic question? It's about a girl 2017-11-10T06:06:34Z beach: Do it by PM then. 2017-11-10T06:06:42Z asarch: Thank you 2017-11-10T06:08:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:10:18Z borodust: hello! 2017-11-10T06:10:32Z beach: Hello borodust. 2017-11-10T06:10:32Z borodust: are there roswell enthusiasts here? 2017-11-10T06:11:19Z borodust: is there a way to disable roswell's github search for install command? 2017-11-10T06:12:38Z borodust: it confuses slash in asdf system names for name/repo divider in github link :/ 2017-11-10T06:13:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:14:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:17:12Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:19:43Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:20:16Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:27:09Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:27:09Z nika_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-10T06:27:33Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:28:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:29:31Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:29:37Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:30:28Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T06:33:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:34:32Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:34:44Z borodust: oh, i see how it can be fixed 2017-11-10T06:35:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:35:09Z borodust: just put system name into quotes, thanks! 2017-11-10T06:35:57Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:38:03Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T06:39:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:40:59Z dmiles: #'array-rank requires an array as an argument is there a list some place that tells me what every function requires for arguments? 2017-11-10T06:41:56Z dmiles: (perhaps some cl-whatnot that contains this info) 2017-11-10T06:43:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:43:52Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-11-10T06:47:34Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:49:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T06:50:45Z dmiles: like if i wanted to add CHECK-TYPEs 2017-11-10T06:54:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:58:09Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:58:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:01:11Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:04:57Z loke`: dmiles: Programmatically? 2017-11-10T07:05:36Z dmiles: yes.. i'd add the check-types programmitically 2017-11-10T07:06:08Z dmiles: so for exmaple.. '(array-rank (arrayp) (not minusp)) 2017-11-10T07:06:18Z dmiles: would be the type of data i am looking for 2017-11-10T07:08:57Z dmiles: i have a at least 3-4 other places i'd use this information for (but a typical use would be to add check-types) 2017-11-10T07:09:56Z dmiles: i thought maybe even seen this somewhere in the emacs sources 2017-11-10T07:09:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:10:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T07:11:32Z nika_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:13:19Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:13:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:16:03Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:16:03Z nika_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-10T07:16:22Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:16:26Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:18:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:19:33Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:21:03Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:21:46Z dmiles: thoats right define-caller-pattern 2017-11-10T07:22:11Z dmiles: but didnt include types 2017-11-10T07:23:25Z internet1cafe is now known as internet_cafe 2017-11-10T07:23:34Z internet_cafe quit (Changing host) 2017-11-10T07:23:34Z internet_cafe joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:25:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:26:00Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-10T07:31:50Z myrkraverk: Ok, I may be trying to do something perverted, but I have run myself into chicken and egg problem. 2017-11-10T07:32:27Z myrkraverk: Depending on a value in a config file, I want to dynamically (ql:quickload :foo) -- so far so good. The problem is when I want to use sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die. 2017-11-10T07:32:59Z myrkraverk: Because if the package isn't loaded at compile time, it doesn't compile. 2017-11-10T07:33:08Z myrkraverk: And the idea was to "dynamically load it". 2017-11-10T07:35:54Z myrkraverk: The reason I wanted to dynamically load it, is because it's a user of CFFI. And I wanted the user to be able to put the name of the foreign library in a config file (in case it doesn't find the system supplied one). 2017-11-10T07:36:36Z myrkraverk: That part actually works, with (handler-bind ... (use-value ...)) 2017-11-10T07:37:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:37:33Z myrkraverk: So, any other options I have, to use save-lisp-and-die, along with a config-file supplied value for the CFFI library? 2017-11-10T07:41:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:44:07Z fikka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:44:56Z dmiles: ok good.. at least this is a start https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/xref.lisp 2017-11-10T07:45:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:45:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:45:31Z dmiles: so something like (define-caller-pattern signum (form) :lisp) but (define-caller-pattern-types signum (:number) :boolean) 2017-11-10T07:45:51Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:45:58Z dmiles: oops :symbol for return 2017-11-10T07:48:00Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T07:48:48Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:50:29Z fikka_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-10T07:52:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:57:19Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-10T07:58:52Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:00:06Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:04:27Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:06:18Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:06:43Z Ven is now known as Guest25031 2017-11-10T08:07:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:07:38Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-11-10T08:10:57Z Guest25031 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:12:13Z heisig joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:14:15Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T08:14:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:19:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:20:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:20:27Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-10T08:22:40Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:22:43Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:24:55Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:26:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:30:18Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-10T08:30:43Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T08:30:53Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-10T08:31:05Z chronull quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:34:05Z rocx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:34:48Z murii joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:39:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:43:32Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T08:43:48Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:43:48Z blasut quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T08:44:46Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:46:21Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:48:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:55:57Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-10T08:58:09Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T08:58:50Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T09:03:34Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-10T09:04:34Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-11-10T09:05:34Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:07:11Z bkst_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T09:08:41Z bkst joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:16:29Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:17:22Z bkst_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:18:25Z bkst quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T09:18:54Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T09:19:00Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:19:05Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T09:19:31Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:20:59Z myrkraverk: How do I have both @ and 2 in ~@2d in a format string. SBCL is warning be about a parameter after the @. 2017-11-10T09:22:23Z myrkraverk: Ah, I got it right with ~2,'0@d 2017-11-10T09:23:24Z myrkraverk: But then, that turns out to be not what I want. 2017-11-10T09:23:30Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:24:49Z myrkraverk: With 3 instead of 2 I get (for example) 0-8 in the output. 2017-11-10T09:24:54Z myrkraverk: How do I put the sign before the padding? 2017-11-10T09:29:29Z scymtym: myrkraverk: i don't know how to make ~D do that. maybe do something like this instead: (dolist (x '(-1 0 1)) (format t "~:[+~;-~]~3,'0d~%" (minusp x) (abs x))) 2017-11-10T09:31:10Z myrkraverk: Hmm, that's a method of last resort; thank you. 2017-11-10T09:31:38Z scymtym: i agree, it's not pretty 2017-11-10T09:34:01Z scymtym: you could turn that into ~/my-print-padded-integer/ to get rid of the "argument preprocessing" 2017-11-10T09:36:11Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-10T09:36:42Z myrkraverk: Yeah, but so far I'm only using it in one place. 2017-11-10T09:38:02Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:42:00Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T09:42:45Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:45:38Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:49:17Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-10T09:50:41Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T09:50:46Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:50:57Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T09:52:22Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-11-10T09:58:06Z karswell joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:01:16Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:01:41Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T10:02:02Z murii quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T10:02:27Z murii joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:02:58Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:09:16Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-10T10:11:05Z pjb: myrkraverk: now, format specifiers where invented and specified at a time where accounting was big. (cf. COBOL!) In accounting you never write -00008 ever. 2017-11-10T10:11:59Z myrkraverk: No, but when dealing with arbitrary numbers, it does happen. 2017-11-10T10:12:18Z myrkraverk: Such as (in my case) when padding time zones. 2017-11-10T10:12:39Z pjb: You can use (format nil "~0,3@$" 2) #| --> "+002." |# but then you get the dot. 2017-11-10T10:12:51Z myrkraverk: And then, CL doesn't seem to deal with time zone granularity of minutes (which do exists). 2017-11-10T10:13:03Z pjb: This ~$ contradict my above explaination… 2017-11-10T10:13:23Z myrkraverk: *nod* I wast wanted to pad my time zone. 2017-11-10T10:13:23Z pjb: myrkraverk: it does, but with ratio. 2017-11-10T10:13:36Z myrkraverk: "oh great" 2017-11-10T10:13:39Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-10T10:14:39Z myrkraverk: Fortunately, I don't have to deal with such time zones; mostly I have utc or +-n where n is a number of hours; but it's good to know that CL handles them. 2017-11-10T10:14:41Z pjb: (mapcar (lambda (tz) (multiple-value-list (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time) tz))) '(0/3600 1200/3600)) #| --> ((41 14 10 10 11 2017 4 nil 0) (41 54 9 10 11 2017 4 nil 1/3)) |# 2017-11-10T10:14:52Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:15:29Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-10T10:16:44Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-10T10:22:45Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T10:22:48Z murii quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T10:22:59Z murii joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:23:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:23:33Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T10:24:07Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:24:33Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:25:26Z blasut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T10:26:03Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:26:57Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:28:27Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T10:31:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T10:33:48Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:38:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T10:39:08Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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For example, (latinp (character-by-name "Ponce Pilate")) -> T 2017-11-10T11:03:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:04:54Z akr: something like "characters contained in alphabets stemming from the ancient roman alphabet" 2017-11-10T11:05:03Z Guest32862 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:05:17Z akr: pjb: where do those functions come from? 2017-11-10T11:05:24Z pjb: ok, so quite a large definition. Perhaps there's a unicode attribute for this. 2017-11-10T11:06:02Z beach: akr: Maybe you are looking for something related to the latin-1 character encoding? That is quite different from what you asked for. 2017-11-10T11:06:03Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_character_property#Script may help. 2017-11-10T11:06:30Z akr: beach: I just have an input that I need to check that doesn't contain anything too fancy 2017-11-10T11:06:46Z beach: akr: It can't if the encoding is latin-1. 2017-11-10T11:06:58Z akr: well, it's not 2017-11-10T11:07:08Z beach: akr: What is the encoding? 2017-11-10T11:07:22Z akr: unicode, I'd imagine 2017-11-10T11:07:30Z pjb: babel doesn't seem to have a script accessor. 2017-11-10T11:07:47Z pjb: You will probably have to find a unicode database providing the information. 2017-11-10T11:07:53Z akr: or perhaps I should've said UTF-8 2017-11-10T11:09:01Z pjb: There are non latin characters in iso-8859-1. 2017-11-10T11:09:54Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T11:10:01Z scymtym: akr: on SBCL, you could try something like (map 'list #'sb-unicode:script "aäЈﬡ") => (:LATIN :LATIN :CYRILLIC :HEBREW) 2017-11-10T11:10:33Z zaoqi joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:10:36Z akr: there is this thing in regexes that allows you to match predefined character classes, but I forgot what it's called and can't find it 2017-11-10T11:10:53Z akr: the syntax is something like \p{IsLatin} or something 2017-11-10T11:12:04Z pjb: There are 3 kinds of unicode latin 217 Latin Fraktur, 216 Latin Gaelic, and 215 Latin. 2017-11-10T11:12:18Z pjb: How does sb-unicode translate them? 2017-11-10T11:12:23Z akr: scymtym: hmm, I don't have that package 2017-11-10T11:12:34Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:12:37Z zaoqi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T11:12:49Z akr: although that might be because I'm on SBCL 1.1.14 2017-11-10T11:13:45Z scymtym: akr: check whether *FEATURES* contains :SB-UNICODE 2017-11-10T11:14:24Z akr: hmm, it does 2017-11-10T11:15:32Z scymtym: akr: i think you are right, your SBCL version is too old. the extended unicode functions were added in 1.2.5 2017-11-10T11:15:34Z akr: (find-package "sb-unicode") => NIL 2017-11-10T11:15:42Z akr: oh, too bad :( 2017-11-10T11:16:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:16:27Z blasut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:18:20Z scymtym: akr: cl-ppcre seems to support the "named properties" extension you mentioned above: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#*property-resolver* http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#unicode 2017-11-10T11:18:57Z akr: oh, cool 2017-11-10T11:19:14Z akr: I was just looking at a different regex documentation and there wasn't a class for latin 2017-11-10T11:20:20Z akr: scymtym: thanks a lot, looks like I should be able to use that. Unfortunately I have to run now. See ya! :) 2017-11-10T11:20:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:20:40Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:21:41Z zaoqi joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:24:38Z zaoqi left #lisp 2017-11-10T11:25:14Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:25:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:30:46Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:32:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:32:22Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:33:09Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T11:38:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:38:51Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T11:39:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:41:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:41:37Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:42:09Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:42:18Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T11:42:51Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:43:03Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T11:44:03Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:44:19Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:44:40Z mrcom quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T11:45:34Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T11:46:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:46:35Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:48:53Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:52:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T11:54:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:54:15Z Shinmera: Colleen: notify on join sjl I reworked the docs for Harmony and included some actual examples. Hope that helps! https://shirakumo.github.io/harmony/ Still haven't completed the CoreAudio backend or made buffer-sources convenient, though. 2017-11-10T11:54:16Z Colleen: Shinmera: Got it. I'll let sjl know as soon as possible. 2017-11-10T11:57:40Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T11:59:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:07:29Z nowhere_man quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-11-10T12:07:39Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:07:47Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-10T12:08:25Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T12:09:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:13:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:17:08Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-10T12:18:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T12:20:52Z sebastien_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T12:24:18Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:31:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:33:22Z blasut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T12:33:39Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:33:56Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:37:26Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:37:44Z blasut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T12:38:18Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:39:33Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-10T12:40:31Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T12:42:05Z rtmpdavid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T12:42:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T12:46:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:50:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-10T12:50:27Z Ven is now known as Guest3192 2017-11-10T12:51:42Z DingoSaar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T12:54:25Z Guest3192 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T12:57:51Z phoe: akr: 1.1.14 is pretty ancient 2017-11-10T12:58:50Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:00:54Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:02:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:04:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T13:05:14Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-10T13:07:53Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:13:42Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:17:41Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:22:57Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:25:14Z engblom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T13:26:51Z engblom joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:28:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:29:15Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T13:29:33Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:30:03Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:32:43Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:39:35Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-10T13:42:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T13:44:57Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:46:49Z murii quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T13:49:47Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:52:31Z foom2 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T13:55:27Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T13:55:50Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-10T13:59:46Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T14:00:27Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:05:01Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:06:33Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:06:34Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T14:08:13Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:08:58Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:09:07Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T14:12:52Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:14:18Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:16:54Z nixfreak joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:17:30Z jstoddard joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:17:46Z dddddd_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:18:23Z nixfreak: has anyone tried this yet ? - https://gorkovchanin.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/introduction-to-ml-with-common-lisp/#comments 2017-11-10T14:18:34Z nixfreak: for ML / AI tutorials ? 2017-11-10T14:19:45Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T14:21:40Z dddddd_ is now known as dddddd 2017-11-10T14:25:26Z jstoddard2 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:25:27Z jstoddard2 quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-10T14:25:45Z nixfreak quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-10T14:29:59Z jstoddard quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T14:31:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T14:37:21Z butterthebuddha quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-11-10T14:37:38Z butterthebuddha joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:39:57Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T14:43:13Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T14:47:11Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:47:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:51:07Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-10T14:52:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:04:51Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T15:06:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:07:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:10:38Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:10:50Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:11:43Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:12:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:15:00Z blasut_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:15:15Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T15:15:31Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:15:36Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:16:17Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:17:40Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:19:52Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:21:51Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:22:24Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:27:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:29:21Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-10T15:31:58Z jstoddard joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:32:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:33:49Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-10T15:34:57Z moei joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:40:09Z nixfreak joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:43:42Z blasut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T15:44:04Z ninegrid quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-10T15:44:19Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:47:02Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-10T15:47:59Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:48:05Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:48:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:53:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:54:06Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-10T15:56:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:00:23Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T16:01:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:01:52Z dotcra is now known as dotc 2017-11-10T16:02:16Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T16:05:21Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:07:19Z sebastien_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:08:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:13:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:13:52Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:18:41Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:21:10Z rocx quit (Quit: classes) 2017-11-10T16:22:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:22:41Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:23:36Z Devon: jmercouris: Yesterday you asked about running code full of require/provide in CCL, which can configure REQUIRE to just work. I suspect other Lisps can support this too. 2017-11-10T16:25:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:26:36Z solene: what is the use of single ";" comments ? emacs put them on the right when I indent them 2017-11-10T16:27:24Z Bike: usually you put them at the end of a line 2017-11-10T16:27:31Z Bike: (+ n n) ; add n to itself 2017-11-10T16:27:40Z Bike: clhs 2.4.4.2 2017-11-10T16:27:41Z specbot: Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm 2017-11-10T16:27:45Z Bike: is weirdly exhaustive on this subject 2017-11-10T16:28:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:29:09Z solene: thx ! 2017-11-10T16:29:24Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:32:13Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-11-10T16:33:19Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:33:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:33:56Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:34:54Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:35:01Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:35:26Z Shinmera: I mean, the CLHS includes pronunciation guides for some operators, so why not this 2017-11-10T16:35:45Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:36:34Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T16:36:47Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T16:36:47Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:37:12Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:38:32Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:38:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:39:00Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:40:06Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:41:23Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:43:26Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:43:43Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-10T16:44:12Z blasut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T16:44:21Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:44:38Z phoe: solene: for comments inside blocks, use ;; 2017-11-10T16:44:44Z phoe: (defun foo () 2017-11-10T16:44:49Z phoe: ;; return true 2017-11-10T16:44:51Z phoe: 42) 2017-11-10T16:45:04Z phoe: ;;; is for toplevel comments, ;;;; is for file headers 2017-11-10T16:45:09Z phoe: that's the tl;dr version of the above 2017-11-10T16:46:06Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T16:46:50Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:48:43Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:49:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:49:51Z DGASAU` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:51:21Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:52:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:53:03Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:53:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:53:53Z sebastien_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:55:24Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:57:23Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T16:57:25Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:00:37Z blasut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:02:02Z papachan` joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:02:46Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:03:54Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:05:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:05:46Z blasut_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:06:02Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:07:28Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:09:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:15:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:16:16Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:16:24Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:16:37Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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There is so much content for python and ML but not a lot for common lisp which is sad ): 2017-11-10T17:39:44Z Xach: a great opportunity to be a pioneer! 2017-11-10T17:39:45Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:40:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:40:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:42:27Z sukaeto: or you could just take the pseudo code out of Russell and Norvig and implement it in Lisp instead of in Python . . . 2017-11-10T17:44:32Z turkja: there is somewhere Russel and Norvig examples in CL 2017-11-10T17:44:43Z turkja: let me try to find it.. 2017-11-10T17:44:49Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:45:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:46:02Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T17:46:54Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-10T17:47:07Z turkja: it's actually everywhere in github.. just search "paip lisp" 2017-11-10T17:49:17Z shrdlu68: nixfreak: MGL has some example uses in code. 2017-11-10T17:50:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:50:45Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-11-10T17:50:56Z shrdlu68: You need a Nvidia GPU to run it though. 2017-11-10T17:51:37Z Murii quit (Quit: Byee.) 2017-11-10T17:52:33Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:55:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:56:34Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:58:28Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-11-10T17:58:40Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:02:20Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T18:04:19Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:07:04Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T18:10:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:12:47Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T18:13:22Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:15:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:15:56Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:19:19Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:20:28Z mnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:21:06Z ebrasca` is now known as ebrasca 2017-11-10T18:21:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:22:06Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:23:35Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:25:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:26:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:30:57Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:31:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:33:00Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:33:37Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:35:13Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:36:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:39:52Z drot_ is now known as drot 2017-11-10T18:41:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:43:05Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:46:04Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:46:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:46:36Z goreye joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:51:13Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:53:27Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T18:53:43Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:54:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T18:58:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T19:01:37Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:01:56Z covi_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:02:11Z covi_: How do I subtract a list from another list? These are list of file paths containing wildcards, e.g. ("~/org/myfile.org") . cl-set-difference doesn't work for strings :( 2017-11-10T19:02:45Z Bike: :test #'string= 2017-11-10T19:03:39Z covi_: NVM (set-difference '("1" "2" "3") '("3" "1") :test 'string=) 2017-11-10T19:03:40Z covi_: works! 2017-11-10T19:06:52Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T19:06:58Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-10T19:07:06Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T19:08:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:10:58Z covi_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-10T19:15:27Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T19:16:20Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T19:17:43Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:18:32Z pjb: (let ((list '(1 2 3 4 5))) (ldiff list (nthcdr 3 list))) #| --> (1 2 3) |# 2017-11-10T19:19:09Z Bike: they referred to set-difference 2017-11-10T19:19:39Z pjb: ok 2017-11-10T19:20:04Z Bike: i mean i think it's pretty clear ldiff was not meant 2017-11-10T19:27:25Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:27:38Z pjb: Obviously I stopped at the question mark… 2017-11-10T19:27:48Z mn3m quit (Quit: mn3m) 2017-11-10T19:29:20Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-10T19:30:12Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T19:34:17Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:36:27Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:39:02Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T19:46:52Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:52:55Z eli joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:52:55Z eli quit (Changing host) 2017-11-10T19:52:55Z eli joined #lisp 2017-11-10T19:54:22Z theBlackDragon quit (Quit: Boom.) 2017-11-10T19:56:21Z mfiano: nixfreak: https://leanpub.com/lovinglisp/ 2017-11-10T19:57:18Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-10T19:57:53Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T19:59:21Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:09:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:09:46Z goreye quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T20:09:47Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-10T20:14:48Z siriusirc joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:16:29Z siriusirc: [Question] Where can I find beginner programming challenges with user submissions in lisp? I've been using https://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/ but the lisp solutions are rare. 2017-11-10T20:16:49Z dim: rosetacode 2017-11-10T20:17:01Z dim: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code 2017-11-10T20:17:05Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T20:17:33Z siriusirc: dim: Nice, thanks a lot! 2017-11-10T20:19:59Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:24:01Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T20:24:31Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T20:27:59Z jstoddard quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2017-11-10T20:31:45Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:32:22Z p_l: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2017/11/burn-the-programmer.html 2017-11-10T20:38:08Z shrdlu68: I for one consider neurosurgeons magicians. 2017-11-10T20:39:59Z Bike: yeah, thinking it's just programmers is silly. 2017-11-10T20:40:20Z Josh_2: Burn anyone who does anything I don't understand!!! 2017-11-10T20:40:28Z Josh_2: starting with pjb 2017-11-10T20:40:41Z Bike: neurosurgery seems a lot less magical when you learn the history. 2017-11-10T20:40:53Z shrdlu68: So does computing. 2017-11-10T20:40:55Z Bike: much like programming starts seeming like a buncha crap the more you know 2017-11-10T20:41:17Z Josh_2: Idk, the more I learn the more confused I get 2017-11-10T20:41:22Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:41:27Z Bike: that passes. 2017-11-10T20:43:08Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:43:15Z Josh_2: Lifes easier when you only know OO 2017-11-10T20:43:26Z shka_: "I've occasionally wondered if inscribing a pentagram and blood sacrifice would be more effective in ranking a site on Google than the traditional approaches." 2017-11-10T20:43:41Z shka_: I think that this would be fun to try 2017-11-10T20:44:11Z shrdlu68: In Neal Spephenson's Anathem programmers and other computing experts are "Ita". 2017-11-10T20:45:16Z Bike: yeah, in "in the beginning was the command line" he talks about dividing society into eloi and morlocks, as if "eloi" are all the same, and he'd have any idea how disneyland rides work or how to market the place effectively 2017-11-10T20:46:43Z shka_: http://marcoil.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/format-fear-231x300.jpg 2017-11-10T20:48:43Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:49:28Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T20:50:31Z Josh_2: Am trying to implement B+ Trees in CL, what's a good paradigm to use? I'm assuming basic OO. 2017-11-10T20:50:53Z pjb: siriusirc: sproj and euler's project take lisp code. 2017-11-10T20:50:55Z shka_: Josh_2: literally every approach works 2017-11-10T20:51:27Z shka_: if you just want B+ trees, that is 2017-11-10T20:51:41Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-10T20:51:42Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-11-10T20:52:02Z pjb: siriusirc: https://projecteuler.net http://www.spoj.com 2017-11-10T20:52:12Z Josh_2: Well I wanted to use lists and avoid using objects, but I'm not sure how to store information like whether something is full or if it is a leaf 2017-11-10T20:52:47Z shka_: using objects does not make your program object oriented! 2017-11-10T20:52:50Z Bike: have the car of the list be a tag. 2017-11-10T20:52:55Z Bike: there are options 2017-11-10T20:53:15Z Josh_2: Bike: well I did that at first, I guess I can do that again. 2017-11-10T20:53:47Z Josh_2: So I could put a dotted pair at the start with the type and a bool whether it is full or not 2017-11-10T20:53:51Z shka_: p_l: http://i.imgur.com/5gbFE.png 2017-11-10T20:53:51Z pjb: Josh_2: lists or CLOS objects are just implementation details. In both cases, you should define and use the same functional abstractions! 2017-11-10T20:54:11Z Bike: though i'd rather use structs or objects. 2017-11-10T20:54:13Z shka_: pjb: 1+ so much 2017-11-10T20:54:22Z pjb: Josh_2: the only advantage of CLOS, is that it generates most of the functional abstrations automatically for you, when you use the :accessor clauses. 2017-11-10T20:54:23Z siriusirc: pjb: Thanks 2017-11-10T20:54:43Z pjb: Josh_2: but you can also get some of it generated automatically with defstruct :type list. 2017-11-10T20:55:03Z shka_: well, not "the only" 2017-11-10T20:55:11Z pjb: Notice how defstruct let you choose between lists, vectors and structures are implementation detail. 2017-11-10T20:55:24Z p_l: shka_: I sometimes do weird shit like try to figure a way to remotely blow up computers using only code. Sometimes i get plausible attack spells out 2017-11-10T20:55:26Z pjb: So indeed, it's easier to use CLOS. 2017-11-10T20:55:36Z pjb: because it generates generic functions and methods. 2017-11-10T20:55:57Z Josh_2: I would have used structs because I only need some basic info stored. 2017-11-10T20:56:35Z pjb: Josh_2: again, it's an implementation detail, choosing between defstruct or defclass. I have a defstruct-like macro that generates the equivalent defclass. 2017-11-10T20:56:57Z Josh_2: shka_: very good image :D 2017-11-10T20:57:11Z p_l: Josh_2: ancient lisp OOP code used symbols and symbol plists for objects... 2017-11-10T20:57:17Z pjb: What is not an implementation detail, is that defclass generate generic functions and methods for the accessors, while defstruct generates normal functions and implementation specific mechanisms (for the writers). 2017-11-10T20:57:53Z Josh_2: alrighty. Well I think I'm just going to try what Bike said and I have tried before, just using the start of the lists to store extra information. Thanks for the information. 2017-11-10T20:58:01Z pjb: Good Ancient lisp code used functional abstraction over symbols and symbol plists, so you wouldn't have to care. 2017-11-10T20:58:16Z Josh_2: Also I've stilled not dug deep into CLOS so I don't really know what is going on with all that 2017-11-10T21:01:15Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:02:49Z Josh_2: I need to read what I send before I send it. 2017-11-10T21:03:04Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:03:56Z jasom: Josh_2: note also that when you define a structure, it creates a class that you can dispatch on, just like defclass. defclass creates something that is more dynamic than structures, has more features, but fewer defaults. (e.g. no make-foo defined for you by defualt with defclass) 2017-11-10T21:04:27Z Josh_2: What do you mean by "can dispatch on?" 2017-11-10T21:04:38Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:04:42Z jasom: Josh_2: with generic functions (i.e. you can define methods on structs) 2017-11-10T21:04:43Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T21:04:48Z Josh_2: Ahh, okay 2017-11-10T21:06:10Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:06:21Z jasom: methods can dispatch on the class of any of their parameters or the value of their parameter (under eql), but nothing else. 2017-11-10T21:06:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T21:06:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:07:28Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T21:07:29Z jasom: this is why you can specialize a function on cl:string but not cl:base-string 2017-11-10T21:07:36Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T21:07:45Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T21:12:35Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T21:12:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:12:58Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T21:13:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:13:35Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T21:17:39Z phoe: clhs base-string 2017-11-10T21:17:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_base_s.htm 2017-11-10T21:17:50Z phoe: base-string is a type, string is a class 2017-11-10T21:18:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T21:19:32Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:19:33Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-10T21:21:44Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:23:23Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:23:43Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-11-10T21:23:55Z siriusirc left #lisp 2017-11-10T21:23:57Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-11-10T21:24:06Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Slime should take care to load its own swank sources. 2017-11-10T22:16:13Z jasom: jmercouris: yes, and configure your emacs to use the swank that comes with slime helper 2017-11-10T22:16:31Z jasom: jmercouris: quicklisp-slime-helper rather 2017-11-10T22:16:37Z Shinmera: So I'm not sure how the version discrepancy could even happen. 2017-11-10T22:17:03Z Bike: cached fasls, natch 2017-11-10T22:17:03Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Well, it did happen, let me try making a new frame and see if the problem persists before i manually update 2017-11-10T22:17:58Z jmercouris: That's so weird, it says I'm using slime 2.20 in my instance that i did a package update on 2017-11-10T22:18:03Z jmercouris: but in a new frame, it loaded 2.19 2017-11-10T22:19:58Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:20:43Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:21:07Z jmercouris: I literally can't even, I'll just restart emacs, so strange sometimes 2017-11-10T22:21:22Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T22:21:22Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:21:26Z Xof joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:21:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:21:48Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:24:31Z jmercouris: What version of slime are you all running? 2017-11-10T22:24:35Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:24:37Z jmercouris: Mine is now stuck at 2.19 2017-11-10T22:24:41Z jmercouris: and says no longer upgradable 2017-11-10T22:24:49Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:24:51Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:24:57Z jasom: jmercouris: how did you install slime originally? 2017-11-10T22:25:16Z jmercouris: M-x package-install 2017-11-10T22:25:31Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:26:00Z nixfreak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:28:11Z jmercouris: I mean it's okay, everything is working now, and it had already been like 2 weeks since I restarted emacs, but still 2017-11-10T22:28:15Z jmercouris: very strange 2017-11-10T22:29:38Z Shinmera: It seems like I'm one of the few people that restart emacs at least once a day. 2017-11-10T22:30:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:30:30Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I sometimes restart it once a day, I've got a hydra for desktop, but I had many many buffers, and I didn't want to lose some IRC chat history (which would not be restored), and I didn't want to open the logs 2017-11-10T22:31:14Z jmercouris: I wish there were a way to extend circe to automatically load the log if you scroll up above when you connected 2017-11-10T22:31:35Z jmercouris: It would have to be configured per IRC channel, but it could be done I think 2017-11-10T22:35:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:35:35Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:36:33Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:36:35Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:37:31Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:40:49Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:40:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:45:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:48:21Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:49:50Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:49:50Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-11-10T22:53:42Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:54:10Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:54:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-10T22:59:06Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-10T23:03:59Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-10T23:05:56Z jstoddard joined #lisp 2017-11-10T23:06:07Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T23:08:28Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T23:18:23Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-10T23:18:36Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-10T23:21:21Z stee_3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T23:24:16Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-10T23:28:11Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T23:29:46Z stee_3 joined #lisp 2017-11-10T23:30:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T23:34:24Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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closed the connection) 2017-11-11T06:07:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:16:13Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:23:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:23:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:27:12Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:27:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:28:54Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:31:43Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-11T06:33:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:36:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:38:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:42:53Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-11T06:44:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:48:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:54:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:58:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:59:01Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-11T06:59:20Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-11T07:01:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 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To cut down on typing, is there any nice emacs functionalities I should enable ? 2017-11-11T11:06:09Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:07:18Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:07:19Z beach: You can type things like (m-v-b and then C-c C-i and it will expand. Or you can use dynamic abbrevs by typing a prefix. 2017-11-11T11:07:47Z beach: Or just typing a prefix and C-c C-i will often work too. 2017-11-11T11:07:49Z jackdaniel: some people prefer macros like abbrv to save some typing and cognitive effort to read long names. as of emacs mode, this looks promising: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AbbrevMode 2017-11-11T11:07:51Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:08:22Z beach: Yes, abbrev mode is good as well. 2017-11-11T11:08:24Z pseudonymous: beach: did not know, thanks :) 2017-11-11T11:08:36Z pseudonymous: jackdaniel: very cool, I will look into that :) 2017-11-11T11:09:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:10:28Z blasut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:13:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:14:00Z juanrgar joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:14:55Z juanrgar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T11:16:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:16:52Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:18:23Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:19:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:20:01Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:20:48Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:22:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:22:50Z hiroaki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-11T11:23:07Z emacsoma` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-11T11:23:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:23:57Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:24:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:29:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:31:53Z ck_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:32:42Z ck_ joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:33:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:41:21Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:41:29Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:41:52Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:42:14Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-11T11:49:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:50:13Z rocx quit (Quit: classes) 2017-11-11T11:52:39Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:53:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T11:56:02Z blasut joined #lisp 2017-11-11T11:56:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:00:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:00:32Z fikka quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-11T12:02:31Z blasut quit 2017-11-11T12:03:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:07:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:08:33Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:10:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:12:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:13:45Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T12:13:57Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T12:14:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:16:33Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:22:41Z palmtree joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:23:52Z palmtree: Hi, I'd like to run bash commands inside a lisp program.. how can I do it? which libraries are still used today? thanks :) 2017-11-11T12:25:35Z palmtree: I see there are inferior-shell and trivial libraries.. 2017-11-11T12:26:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:28:03Z kozy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-11T12:29:13Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:30:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:30:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:34:15Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:34:55Z scymtym: palmtree: inferior-shell works reasonably well but has a learning curve for non-trivial things 2017-11-11T12:35:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:35:27Z palmtree: scymtym: I just need to try it for basic things, nothing fancy 2017-11-11T12:36:08Z jackdaniel: palmtree: try (uiop:run-program "ls -l" :output *standard-output*) ; as starter 2017-11-11T12:36:15Z jackdaniel: you should have it already in your implementation 2017-11-11T12:36:42Z jackdaniel: external-program is something what I use personally, but you may need to take it from quicklisp for instance to use 2017-11-11T12:37:24Z jackdaniel: there was also a library shelisp which provided reader macros to mix cl and shell 2017-11-11T12:37:28Z palmtree: jackdaniel: *** there is no package with name "UIOP" *** 2017-11-11T12:37:49Z nullniverse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T12:37:54Z jackdaniel: ah, try (require 'asdf) first maybe 2017-11-11T12:37:54Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: external-program is broken on some platform/implementation combinations 2017-11-11T12:38:01Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:38:20Z Shinmera: It also appears to be abandonware, so :/ 2017-11-11T12:38:25Z palmtree: jackdaniel: *** - LOAD: A file with name ASDF does not exist 2017-11-11T12:38:29Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: but it supports async programs well 2017-11-11T12:38:35Z jackdaniel: palmtree: what implementation do you use? 2017-11-11T12:38:48Z palmtree: btw I'm using clisp on sbcl... 2017-11-11T12:38:55Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Recent UIOP does that better too. 2017-11-11T12:39:17Z jackdaniel: recent ASDF breaks for many cases. I get reports against ECL from time to time from people who insist on using upstream 2017-11-11T12:39:34Z jackdaniel: but maybe I shouldn't count UIOP as ASDF 2017-11-11T12:39:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:39:47Z jackdaniel: palmtree: sbcl is one implementation, clisp is another one 2017-11-11T12:39:53Z jackdaniel: Common Lisp is a language 2017-11-11T12:40:07Z jackdaniel: where did you take from your SBCL? 2017-11-11T12:40:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:41:06Z palmtree: I mean, I've read that there's alrady a library for shell scripting already implemented in sbcl.. but I'm already using clisp and trying to figure out from it 2017-11-11T12:41:22Z jackdaniel: ah, that's what you mean 2017-11-11T12:41:31Z palmtree: yep 2017-11-11T12:41:45Z jackdaniel: I'd recommend building ASDF (you may take it from common-lisp.net/projects/asdf 2017-11-11T12:41:46Z jackdaniel: ) 2017-11-11T12:41:56Z jackdaniel: because you will be hardly able to load any library without it 2017-11-11T12:42:02Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:42:31Z jackdaniel: on top of that I'd suggest installing quicklisp to have easy access to libraries 2017-11-11T12:43:00Z palmtree: jackdaniel: yeah I'm already installing quicklisp, I know that, I didn't know about asdf, thanks :) 2017-11-11T12:43:01Z jackdaniel: palmtree: or even better download and start portacle: https://portacle.github.io/ it should have everything bundled in one package 2017-11-11T12:43:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:43:24Z palmtree: jackdaniel: oh, that's interesting 2017-11-11T12:43:39Z pseudonymous: anyone using http://quickdocs.org/clack-static-asset-middleware/ ? Especially that and ningle ? I can't seem to find a way to use it without breaking either my custom routes or access to static assets 2017-11-11T12:43:42Z jackdaniel: if you have any troubles it has a carying maintainer to support you ;) I'm digging back into my code, good luck :) 2017-11-11T12:43:59Z palmtree: jackdaniel: thanks! 2017-11-11T12:44:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:45:46Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:45:51Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:46:07Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-11T12:49:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T12:49:50Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-11T12:53:27Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-11T12:54:37Z tlaxkit joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:00:12Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:00:14Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:00:19Z phadthai joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:00:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:00:46Z fikka quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-11T13:01:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:02:13Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:05:26Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:05:54Z Devon: (loop with a = (list 0 1 2 3) for x in a when (zerop x) do (setq a (nconc a '(4))) collect x) => (0 1 2 3 4) or (0 1 2 3)? 2017-11-11T13:07:22Z holycow: god i love lisp. you couldn't write that as a single liner in python that was readable. 2017-11-11T13:08:30Z Devon: lol 2017-11-11T13:08:33Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T13:08:41Z pjb: (loop with a = (list 0 1 2 3) for x in a when (zerop x) do (setq a (nconc a '(4))) collect x) #| --> (0 1 2 3 4) |# 2017-11-11T13:10:01Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-11-11T13:10:58Z pjb: Devon: but this is a special case, you should avoid mutating the list referenced by A. cf. 3.6 List traversal http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm 2017-11-11T13:11:05Z Devon: (let ((a (list 0 1 2 3)) (b '())) (dolist (x a) (when (zerop x) (setq a (nconc a '(4)))) (push x b)) (nreverse b)) ; I guess both are explicitly undefined according to 3.6 Traversal Rules and Side Effects 2017-11-11T13:13:29Z pjb: you can write it as: (loop with a = (list 0 1 2 3) for xs = a then (cdr xs) for x = (car xs) while xs when (zerop x) do (setq xs (nconc xs '(4))) collect x) #| --> (0 1 2 3 4) |# 2017-11-11T13:14:21Z pjb: The problem with for x in a, is that loop could optimize the generated code, pre-loading a lot of elements of the list (assume some parallelism in the processor). 2017-11-11T13:14:44Z Devon: I'll use a DOLIST* macro to explicitly allow mutating the traversed list. 2017-11-11T13:16:56Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T13:17:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:18:04Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:19:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:19:56Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:19:58Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:20:13Z palmtree quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:24:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:25:51Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:26:24Z Devon: `(loop with ,head = ,list while ,head do (let ((,var (pop ,head))) .,body)) 2017-11-11T13:29:28Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:29:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:31:02Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:38:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:39:30Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:42:31Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:42:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:44:46Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-11T13:45:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T13:47:23Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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But the expression is not evaluated then, but instead will be evaluated at load-time, in the run environment. 2017-11-11T15:53:14Z Shinmera: Why do you create the list there anyway? Just '("foo" "bar" "baz") 2017-11-11T15:53:33Z Bike: if they're constants in the sense that they're the same at compile time and run time, #. is fine 2017-11-11T15:53:44Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-11T15:53:50Z pjb: drmeister: the difference between the results is that #.'… will return a literal object (since it's quoted), so the compiler may save it in read only memory. 2017-11-11T15:53:53Z Shinmera: drmeister: In the example you posted I don't see a reason to use either #. or l-t-v. 2017-11-11T15:53:58Z pjb: while your load time expression will return a mutable object. 2017-11-11T15:54:09Z pjb: So again, semantics differences will make you choose one or the other. 2017-11-11T15:54:28Z drmeister: Shinmera: Ah - your point is well taken. 2017-11-11T15:54:30Z pjb: Indeed, in your case, #. doesn't compute anything, so you can just write '(…). 2017-11-11T15:54:46Z Shinmera: drmeister: Also that #.'(list ..) is equivalent to (list ..), not '(list ..) 2017-11-11T15:54:47Z pjb: You could have '#.(generate-some-list) 2017-11-11T15:55:06Z pjb: '#.(list 1 2 3) == '(1 2 3) 2017-11-11T15:55:21Z drmeister: I spend a lot of time jumping between C++ and Common Lisp - I keep forgetting simple things - ugh. 2017-11-11T15:55:29Z pjb: But you may want to write '#.(loop for i below 1000000 collect i) instead of writing '(0 1 2 … 999999) 2017-11-11T15:56:05Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T15:56:20Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-11T15:56:35Z pjb: drmeister: also, in terms of computing stuff, this takes time, so you may prefer if possible, to compute at compilation time and save the result, rather than computing at load-time (which may occur at run-time). 2017-11-11T15:56:55Z pjb: On the other hand, if you save executable images, load-time occurs before run-time, so it won't make a difference. 2017-11-11T15:57:42Z pjb: In the case of ecl it doesn't save executable images, but object and executable files, and load time occurs at run-time, when you run the executable. 2017-11-11T15:58:17Z pjb: So it also depend on the implementation, how the environment are related, and when the various times may occur. 2017-11-11T15:58:33Z pjb: drmeister: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm 2017-11-11T15:59:45Z pjb: err, actually #. expression must be evaluated in the evaluation environment, to be precise (not necessarily the same as the compilation or the run-time environment of course). 2017-11-11T16:02:33Z drmeister: Thank you. 2017-11-11T16:05:32Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:07:39Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:07:41Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:08:15Z shka_: beach: good evening! 2017-11-11T16:08:27Z beach: shka_: Hey! What's up? 2017-11-11T16:09:10Z shka_: I've been working on documentation (the one with deeply flawed grammar) 2017-11-11T16:09:21Z beach: Good! 2017-11-11T16:09:23Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:09:33Z whartung joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:09:41Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:09:41Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:11:21Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:12:17Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:13:53Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:15:20Z fikka quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-11T16:15:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:15:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:16:55Z shka_: beach: in fact i just published new version 2017-11-11T16:17:24Z shka_: will be glad for an constructive opinion https://sirherrbatka.github.io/cl-data-structures/main.html 2017-11-11T16:18:45Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:20:02Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-11T16:20:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:21:50Z Josh_2: Can't speak for the code, but as for the aesthetics, I think the h* need to be slightly taller, they are all cramped on my 1080p monitor. And maybe make the vertical menu so that the items are hidden until you click a drop down button or something 2017-11-11T16:21:52Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:22:23Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:22:24Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-11T16:23:09Z shka_: i'm not that good with HTML to be honest 2017-11-11T16:23:39Z shka_: I will try to do something about when i will have a little bit more time 2017-11-11T16:24:56Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:26:16Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T16:26:18Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:26:43Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:27:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:29:21Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:29:51Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:31:27Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:33:38Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:33:52Z guicho: huuuu 2017-11-11T16:34:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:35:35Z sellout joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:35:57Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:37:04Z guicho: for gods sake, if anyone feel you cannot maintain a repo then give a push access to someone... 2017-11-11T16:40:03Z loke`: guicho: who are you talking about? 2017-11-11T16:40:19Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:40:19Z guicho: sorry, sort of rant 2017-11-11T16:40:59Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:45:21Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:45:24Z guicho: I might want to say this: We as lispers may go inactive at any time due to various reasons, and we are not many. So if you have any repo that has some users then you should surely give the push access to someone you trust as a means of risk hedgeing. Even before you feel inactive. 2017-11-11T16:45:24Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:46:59Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-11T16:48:16Z guicho: I recently feel this is getting more serious. Fukamachi is not always healthy and was inactive for like 4 months. (He's ok now though.) 2017-11-11T16:50:03Z guicho: In most cases people go inactive without notice. tpapp recently retired from CL but it was a rare case. 2017-11-11T16:50:31Z shka_: you can fork a repo 2017-11-11T16:51:40Z guicho: shka_: still, if it is a quicklisp repo you have to ask zach. 2017-11-11T16:51:58Z guicho: and things diverge 2017-11-11T16:52:05Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:52:19Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:52:44Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:53:25Z guicho: maybe just my feeling, but taking over someone's project (assume he doesnt respond to the email) feel uneasy. 2017-11-11T16:53:37Z guicho: he = original author 2017-11-11T16:53:53Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T16:54:43Z beach: shka_: I currently have visitors, and will have very little time until the end of next week. 2017-11-11T16:54:51Z shka_: no rush! 2017-11-11T16:55:10Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:55:28Z shka_: I will have bunch of other stuff to take care of before i can even release first version 2017-11-11T16:55:43Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-11T16:55:45Z shka_: so, it's fine, really 2017-11-11T16:55:52Z shka_: also, have a good weekend 2017-11-11T16:56:16Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T16:56:42Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:00:03Z scymtym: guicho: at least tpapp's let-plus should be resolved via sharplispers soon 2017-11-11T17:01:00Z guicho: scymtym: that's good. 2017-11-11T17:01:20Z guicho: cont. We know that we lispers are generally good coders. so giving access to more than oneself should not be a big deal. 2017-11-11T17:01:48Z rocx: would you say the same about amateur lispists? 2017-11-11T17:02:16Z guicho: rocx: no. 2017-11-11T17:02:41Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-11T17:03:10Z guicho: rocx: but we know plenty of good lispers. 2017-11-11T17:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:04:50Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:05:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:05:24Z Josh_2: am ametueeer 2017-11-11T17:05:27Z sellout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T17:05:40Z sellout joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:05:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:06:16Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T17:06:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:06:43Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:08:25Z guicho: Josh_2: well, as a prequisite, you should be an author of a library which has some users. If this is satisfied the person should be good enough. 2017-11-11T17:08:46Z Shinmera: I'd gladly let anyone else do my job of maintaining stuff, but I don't think anyone's gonna sign up for that :^) 2017-11-11T17:08:49Z guicho: Josh_2: sorry my logic is messed up. 2017-11-11T17:09:13Z guicho: Josh_2: so nevermind 2017-11-11T17:09:42Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:10:07Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:10:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:11:45Z Shinmera: I can't even get anyone else to just be interested in adding features or testing things, so 2017-11-11T17:11:58Z guicho: Shinmera: Well I sometimes use your css selector lib for web scraping, I never encountered a bug but if I had one and when you became inactive, then having the push access rather than waiting for the PR to be approved is a lot better. 2017-11-11T17:12:48Z Shinmera: guicho: Sure. The point is that doing this practically means signing up for maintainership. Given that most people already have their hands full with stuff of their own, that's hard to agree to for many, I expect. 2017-11-11T17:14:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:14:06Z tlaxkit quit (Quit: ¡Adiós!) 2017-11-11T17:15:47Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:17:07Z guicho: Shinmera: True. Everyone is busy. I might want to point that there are ups and downs in busy-ness. 2017-11-11T17:17:52Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:18:25Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:19:28Z Shinmera: Well, it's not like I particularly choose to be busy 2017-11-11T17:19:54Z narendraj9 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2017-11-11T17:20:44Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:20:46Z jackdaniel: I think it is more like a means to have a backdoor to the canonical repository 2017-11-11T17:21:06Z jackdaniel: does github allow giving particular *group* master access to the repository not owned by this group? 2017-11-11T17:21:28Z guicho: In my case, I spend most of my time doing expreiments, collecting results, writing papers. This year I was mostly writing python, bash, latex. but I have free time recently so Im creating lots of lisp repos this months. maybe just me, but in this period I can resolve issues in other people's repos. 2017-11-11T17:21:48Z jackdaniel: that could solve the problem, such group could grant privigile to the person who signs up to maitain repository (if the original maintainer disappears) 2017-11-11T17:23:16Z guicho: and I expect this kind of busy-free pattern is common to some extent 2017-11-11T17:24:33Z Shinmera shrugs 2017-11-11T17:24:46Z Shinmera: If anyone wants to sign up to maintain some of my stuff I'd be all ears is all I'm gonna say. 2017-11-11T17:24:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:24:58Z Shinmera goes back to losing Splatoon matches 2017-11-11T17:26:23Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:31:11Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:34:17Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:35:13Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:36:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:37:30Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:38:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:39:03Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:41:29Z mrottenkolber_ joined #lisp 2017-11-11T17:41:54Z mrottenkolber_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - 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2017-11-11T21:08:51Z Shinmera: (loop with l = '(1 2 3 4 5 6) while l collect (loop repeat 2 collect (pop l))) 2017-11-11T21:08:55Z Shinmera: Also: is this a homework assignment 2017-11-11T21:09:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:10:06Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:13:03Z pjb: BigSafari: depends if n is 2 or variable! 2017-11-11T21:13:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:13:33Z pjb: (let ((list '(1 2 3 4 5 6))) (loop for (a b) on list by (function cddr) collect (list a b))) #| --> ((1 2) (3 4) (5 6)) |# 2017-11-11T21:13:40Z BigSafari: nice, thanks. 2017-11-11T21:13:44Z Bike: shinmera's generalizes p easily 2017-11-11T21:13:49Z pjb: yes. 2017-11-11T21:14:07Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:14:08Z Shinmera: I still want to know if this is a homework assignment or not 2017-11-11T21:14:09Z pjb: I also like to use nthcdr and ldiff :-) 2017-11-11T21:14:16Z BigSafari: :-) not homework. 2017-11-11T21:15:31Z BigSafari: any library one should use with such functions? 2017-11-11T21:16:05Z Bike: might be in alexandria 2017-11-11T21:16:09Z Bike: but, it's a oneliner, so no gi 2017-11-11T21:16:12Z pjb: (let ((list '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7)) (n 3)) (loop for start = list then rest for rest = (nthcdr n start) then (nthcdr n rest) while start collect (ldiff start rest))) #| --> ((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7)) |# 2017-11-11T21:16:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:18:16Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T21:18:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:18:42Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:19:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:19:36Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-11T21:20:09Z mrottenkolber_ is now known as mrottenkolber 2017-11-11T21:20:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:23:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:23:40Z BigSafari quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-11-11T21:24:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:25:08Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:26:46Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:28:24Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:28:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-11T21:30:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:31:15Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:31:51Z mrottenkolber left #lisp 2017-11-11T21:33:07Z dxtr: (defun test-mul (x y &rest z) (* x y z)) <- How would I do something like that? 2017-11-11T21:33:30Z dlowe: (apply '* x y z) 2017-11-11T21:34:01Z dxtr: aaah 2017-11-11T21:34:34Z dxtr: thanks! 2017-11-11T21:35:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:36:38Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:38:07Z pseudonymous quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:38:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:38:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:40:41Z tazjin joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:40:52Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:42:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:43:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:46:15Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T21:48:58Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:49:42Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T21:51:16Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-11T21:52:13Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:52:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:52:28Z _akem joined #lisp 2017-11-11T21:53:12Z akem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:53:43Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:55:59Z bard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T21:56:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T21:59:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-11T22:00:17Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-11T22:00:42Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-11-11T22:00:43Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-11T22:01:39Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-11T23:52:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-11T23:52:31Z pseudonymous quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T23:52:37Z phoe: Is there any TRIVIAL-TEMP-FILES? I need to save data to temporary files. 2017-11-11T23:52:43Z phoe: And load them from there. 2017-11-11T23:52:56Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-11T23:54:07Z phoe: UIOP has it. 2017-11-11T23:54:36Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-11T23:55:13Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-11T23:56:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T00:00:02Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T00:00:12Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-12T00:00:30Z jmercouris: how can I view notes generated during compilation in non-open buffers? 2017-11-12T00:00:32Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-11-12T00:04:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T00:06:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T00:08:26Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-12T00:09:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T00:10:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T00:13:19Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T00:14:59Z Bike: non open? 2017-11-12T00:15:37Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T00:17:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T00:18:55Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Could you take a look and tell me if the attached GIF file loads for you? 2017-11-12T01:59:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:01:09Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T02:01:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:02:52Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:04:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:05:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:09:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:10:43Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:13:52Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:13:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:15:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:16:05Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:18:01Z ExcelTronic quit (Quit: I'm going to go hit the sack, then go to bed.) 2017-11-12T02:18:17Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:19:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:19:41Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T02:19:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:19:47Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:21:29Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-12T02:24:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:27:12Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:29:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:29:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:30:29Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:30:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T02:30:51Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-12T02:31:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:32:00Z pankracy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T02:33:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:34:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:38:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:39:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:39:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:42:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:44:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T02:45:57Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:47:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-12T02:51:23Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-12T02:56:01Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:56:57Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:58:13Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-12T02:59:13Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:00:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:05:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:05:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:09:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:10:16Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:10:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:10:39Z Jen is now known as Guest73866 2017-11-12T03:12:17Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T03:12:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:14:02Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:14:52Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:15:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:16:47Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:17:11Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:17:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T03:18:12Z Guest73866 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:19:08Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:20:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:21:35Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:25:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:26:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:27:08Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:30:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:30:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:31:47Z Sigyn quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-12T03:34:11Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:35:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:36:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:38:07Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:40:28Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T03:41:43Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:42:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:45:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:48:39Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:50:27Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:50:56Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T03:51:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:51:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:52:53Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:53:01Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:55:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T03:56:55Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:57:44Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-12T03:58:05Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-11-12T03:58:21Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-11-12T03:59:43Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-12T04:17:56Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:21:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:21:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:22:13Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-12T04:23:37Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:23:58Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T04:26:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:27:30Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:28:19Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:30:57Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:31:39Z whyNOP quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:31:56Z whyNOP joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:34:20Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:35:44Z whoman: hi ! 2017-11-12T04:38:50Z beach: Hello whoman. 2017-11-12T04:42:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:42:48Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:43:59Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:44:14Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T04:44:41Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:45:37Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:46:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:47:29Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:48:39Z Arcaelyx_ is now known as Arcaelyx 2017-11-12T04:48:51Z wxie quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-12T04:49:43Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:49:44Z Arcaelyx: Hey if anyone uses Discord, there's an FP server here: https://discord.gg/8w9tRKa 2017-11-12T04:50:44Z beach: How is that related to Common Lisp? 2017-11-12T04:52:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:57:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T04:57:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T04:57:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T04:58:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:02:36Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:02:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:07:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:07:54Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:08:19Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-12T05:09:32Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:09:35Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:10:06Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:10:46Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:11:09Z Jen is now known as Guest61884 2017-11-12T05:14:12Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:15:12Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:17:41Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:18:52Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:19:51Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:21:36Z Guest61884 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:22:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:23:32Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:27:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:40:12Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:40:37Z Jen is now known as Guest45081 2017-11-12T05:41:25Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-12T05:41:34Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:42:34Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:43:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:43:27Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:43:45Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:46:39Z Guest45081 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:46:46Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:48:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T05:48:52Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-12T05:52:49Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:00:47Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:03:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:03:57Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-12T06:04:00Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:04:50Z Trystam joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:06:57Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:07:15Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2017-11-12T06:08:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:10:00Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-12T06:11:54Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:12:39Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:14:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:18:11Z nisar_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:18:22Z nisar_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-12T06:18:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:27:13Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:28:55Z Arcaelyx: How is it not 2017-11-12T06:32:27Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-12T06:34:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:38:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:43:55Z beach: I did not imply that it is not related. It was an honest question. 2017-11-12T06:44:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:45:18Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T06:47:02Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T06:50:31Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T06:51:49Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-12T06:52:15Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-12T06:55:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:56:12Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T06:56:41Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T06:59:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T07:02:11Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:02:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:02:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:02:56Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:03:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:03:43Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:04:02Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:04:28Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:04:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T07:04:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:05:15Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:05:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:06:01Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:06:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:06:47Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:07:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:07:33Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:07:41Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:07:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:10:18Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:10:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:11:04Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:11:10Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:12:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:12:37Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:12:57Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:13:24Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:13:40Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:14:09Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:14:27Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:14:56Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:15:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:19:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T07:21:32Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:23:06Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:24:03Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:24:12Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T07:25:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:26:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:30:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T07:33:09Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T07:40:00Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T07:40:41Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:42:00Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:42:19Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:45:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T07:48:00Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-11-12T07:50:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T07:58:05Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T07:58:10Z Shinmera: CL isn't particularly about FP. There is a Lisp server too somewhere though. 2017-11-12T07:58:32Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:00:31Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:06:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:08:31Z __akem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:11:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:12:31Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:14:02Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:14:26Z Jen is now known as Guest13950 2017-11-12T08:16:12Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:16:16Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:16:25Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:17:35Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:17:41Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:18:34Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:19:11Z Guest13950 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:20:35Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:21:40Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:22:37Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:22:50Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:23:38Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:24:27Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:26:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:31:26Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-12T08:31:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T08:32:03Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'd be happy to do it though if you can't find anyone else to do it. 2017-11-12T13:39:23Z Josh_2: How'd you make it look like that? 2017-11-12T13:39:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T13:39:55Z Shinmera: With elisp, of course. https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs 2017-11-12T13:40:19Z Josh_2: O damn 2017-11-12T13:40:48Z loke`: Where can I find Shinmera videos? 2017-11-12T13:40:49Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-12T13:40:58Z Shinmera: http://youtube.shinmera.com 2017-11-12T13:41:21Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T13:41:33Z loke`: Thanks 2017-11-12T13:41:55Z anonus: question about hunchentoot, if i may 2017-11-12T13:41:59Z anonus: is it possible to defer a request processing, not returning a response from a handler function but doing it somewhere else? Or do I need wookie for that? 2017-11-12T13:42:06Z Shinmera: In general the question of "where can I find x of mine" can be answered by this page: https://everything.shinmera.com/ 2017-11-12T13:42:06Z akem joined #lisp 2017-11-12T13:42:28Z Shinmera: anonus: "Doing it somewhere else" meaning what? 2017-11-12T13:42:34Z scymtym: loke`: i was willing to do it by myself but if you are also interested, all the better. the practical question is whether to ask david to make more bluelisp repositories or fork under the sharplispers organization 2017-11-12T13:42:45Z loke`: Sems interesting. A pity the background is dark. 2017-11-12T13:42:58Z loke`: (my eye can't watch dark background text) 2017-11-12T13:43:09Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-12T13:43:22Z anonus: Shinmera: for example i want to implement some kind of long polling, waiting for data to arrive asynchronously and then returning it to requester (or returning empty response after timeout) 2017-11-12T13:43:24Z Shinmera: And white screens hurt mine 2017-11-12T13:44:21Z loke`: anonus: You can do it in Hunchentoot 2017-11-12T13:44:38Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-12T13:44:56Z Shinmera: anonus: With SEND-HEADERS you can get the output stream and write/flush to it as you please. 2017-11-12T13:45:03Z loke`: Shinmera: probably not as bad as for me. I literally become half-blind and the room start spinning after about 3 minutes of dark background. It's annoying as hell. 2017-11-12T13:45:14Z Shinmera: loke`: Wow, ok. 2017-11-12T13:45:37Z anonus: Shinmera: so then i need to do detach-socket and store stream somewhere to use it later? 2017-11-12T13:45:42Z loke`: (then, there are scientific reasons for light backgrounds being better for the eyes... less eyestrain, but that's a separate thing :-) ) 2017-11-12T13:45:57Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-12T13:46:09Z Shinmera: anonus: No, you just block until you've written what you need to the stream. 2017-11-12T13:46:35Z Shinmera: loke`: I prefer dark backgrounds on almost everything, so your science can shove it. 2017-11-12T13:46:42Z anonus: but then it will consume thread from thredpool? 2017-11-12T13:46:48Z anonus: *threadpool 2017-11-12T13:46:55Z loke`: I might just watch your video in small window in the corner of the screen. That'll be fine. 2017-11-12T13:47:41Z Shinmera: anonus: An open connection will consume resources no matter what. 2017-11-12T13:48:28Z anonus: sure, but thread seems much more wasting that just an open socket 2017-11-12T13:48:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T13:49:40Z anonus: i mean i will probably start with just blocking a thread as you said, but i just want to know potentially can I do this detach-socket thing and free a thread for hunchentoot 2017-11-12T13:49:47Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-12T13:50:51Z anonus: also is this the only way, i mean maybe someone did more "high-level" implementation, like some kind of deferring dispatcher 2017-11-12T13:50:58Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T13:53:26Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-12T13:54:12Z Shinmera: I mean, the answer to almost every software question is "yes, but..." with the but here being that I don't think HT is intended for that, and I personally don't know how you would have to go about it. Read the docs and source, experiment. 2017-11-12T13:54:33Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T13:55:18Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T13:56:53Z anonus: well, yes, i know this "yes, but ...", i mean hunchentoot generally fits perfectly with 99% of use i intended, but this one callback with long polling - i just want to make sure that effort required by implementing this single callback will not overpower advantages i get from every other use 2017-11-12T13:59:11Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T14:01:26Z Shinmera: You might want to consider websockets instead of long polling, though if I remember correctly the hunchentoot extension for WS uses a thread per connection anyway, so 2017-11-12T14:02:06Z anonus: unfortunately no, this is part of a spec 2017-11-12T14:02:16Z Shinmera: Ah. 2017-11-12T14:03:31Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T14:06:47Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T14:06:57Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T14:12:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T14:16:57Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T14:26:04Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-12T14:26:20Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-12T14:26:54Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T14:28:23Z mhi^ left #lisp 2017-11-12T14:28:55Z fnord_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T14:31:23Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-12T14:31:54Z jstoddard joined #lisp 2017-11-12T14:33:35Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T14:36:23Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-12T15:41:18Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T15:43:20Z ebrasca: Is there some library for checking for strong passwords? 2017-11-12T15:43:30Z shka: Josh_2: don't bullshit me and just do it 2017-11-12T15:51:55Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-12T15:54:42Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T15:55:12Z cmatei joined #lisp 2017-11-12T15:57:44Z ebrasca: phoe: hi 2017-11-12T15:57:53Z phoe: ebrasca: hey 2017-11-12T15:58:27Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-12T15:58:30Z ebrasca: phoe: how is your UltraSpec going? 2017-11-12T15:59:10Z phoe: ebrasca: paused for now, I am tending to other parts of my life. 2017-11-12T16:00:14Z ebrasca: phoe: Do you make some metings? 2017-11-12T16:01:44Z Shinmera: ebrasca: Easy trick: calculate the standard deviation over characters in the password string. Then just normalise that over some region of un/acceptability. 2017-11-12T16:02:40Z Shinmera: bonus points for reducing the score with a dictionary lookup. 2017-11-12T16:02:41Z ebrasca: Shinmera: What do you mean? 2017-11-12T16:02:57Z Shinmera: ebrasca: I mean what I said. You'll have to be more specific about what you don't understand. 2017-11-12T16:03:06Z ebrasca only undestand deviation with numbers. 2017-11-12T16:03:14Z Shinmera: characters can be mapped to numbers 2017-11-12T16:03:32Z Shinmera: clhs char-code 2017-11-12T16:03:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_c.htm 2017-11-12T16:04:26Z ebrasca: clhs sbcl 2017-11-12T16:04:27Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for sbcl. 2017-11-12T16:04:38Z ebrasca: clhs + 2017-11-12T16:04:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 2017-11-12T16:08:12Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Thanks you, I think I can add it to my webpage passwords checking. 2017-11-12T16:08:48Z phoe: ebrasca: nope. 2017-11-12T16:13:52Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:14:47Z wiselord quit (Quit: Changing server) 2017-11-12T16:14:53Z ebrasca: phoe: ok 2017-11-12T16:14:58Z ebrasca: phoe: how are you? 2017-11-12T16:15:16Z visof quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T16:16:18Z phoe: ebrasca: busy 2017-11-12T16:22:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T16:24:32Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:25:57Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T16:29:42Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T16:30:27Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T16:31:41Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:33:46Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T16:33:49Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:39:19Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T16:43:57Z payphone joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:52:41Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:54:16Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:54:25Z ajpocus joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:56:04Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:57:11Z jfo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T16:57:31Z jfo left #lisp 2017-11-12T16:57:38Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:00:15Z k-stz joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:01:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T17:03:40Z k-stz: hey, when I launch sbcl i get a fatal error: "can't find core file at /usr/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core". If I unset the $SBCL_HOME variable, it works. It also works when I run it as root. We're talking a clean installation of sbcl. I'm having trouble setting the variable in the environment, and perhaps I can avoid this hacky solution. 2017-11-12T17:04:00Z k-stz: lastly $SBCL_HOME does point to a non-existent file 2017-11-12T17:07:45Z hydan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-12T17:14:42Z Shinmera: just don't set the variable to anything? 2017-11-12T17:15:59Z Shinmera: Like, if it works without it set, why do you think you need to do anything beyond just having it unset? 2017-11-12T17:17:54Z oleo: $SBCL_HOME should be a directory 2017-11-12T17:18:05Z oleo: either /usr/lib/sbcl or /usr/local/lib/sbcl 2017-11-12T17:18:32Z oleo: if it's in a /usr/lib64/sbcl location change it accordingly 2017-11-12T17:18:56Z Shinmera: Just. Don't. Have. It. Set. To. Anything. 2017-11-12T17:19:57Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:21:13Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T17:21:33Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:34:47Z k-stz: Shinmera: I can't do this, I try to unset it anywhere google told me too, but it still gets into the environemnt. I can't find the place where it is set to begin with. I thought the ultimate place is /etc/profile, but the /usr/bin/sh still sets it. 2017-11-12T17:34:55Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T17:35:36Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-12T17:35:52Z Shinmera: Well SBCL isn't magic. It's being set somewhere. 2017-11-12T17:36:10Z p_l: k-stz: worst case make a wrapper script that calls unset before exec sbcl 2017-11-12T17:38:23Z k-stz: p_l: yeah, that'll do 2017-11-12T17:38:37Z Shinmera: There's /etc/profile, /etc/bashrc, /etc/profile.d, ~/.bash_profile, ~/.bash_login, ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc 2017-11-12T17:38:49Z Shinmera: Check all of those, since sh probably aliases to bash anyway. 2017-11-12T17:40:05Z k-stz: got it 2017-11-12T17:40:28Z Shinmera: Alternatively, grep -r SBCL_HOME / 2017-11-12T17:41:43Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:43:16Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-12T17:45:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T17:46:07Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T17:49:02Z cpape` joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:49:30Z cpape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T17:50:49Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T17:50:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:51:12Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T17:51:27Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:51:32Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-12T17:52:17Z Josh_2` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T17:53:52Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-12T17:55:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T17:57:35Z fnord_ is now known as CrazEd 2017-11-12T17:58:04Z CrazEd is now known as Guest11245 2017-11-12T18:01:22Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:04:42Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:06:57Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:06:57Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2017-11-12T18:06:57Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:08:28Z malice joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:09:52Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T18:11:06Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:14:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:14:59Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:18:32Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T18:20:25Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:21:28Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:21:45Z k-stz joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:23:23Z k-stz: ok fixed it, set the environment in my window manager. for some reason it is unaffected by any environement variable changing done prior to its invocation 2017-11-12T18:23:40Z k-stz: (stumpwm) 2017-11-12T18:26:21Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:27:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-12T18:27:49Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:29:27Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T18:30:30Z k-stz: Shinmera: I tried all the paths you suggested first, it did work for the login shell but not after the window manager was invoked :/ (startx called from the login shell) 2017-11-12T18:30:58Z Shinmera: Well if you launch it directly from the window manager it's going to inherit the variables the window manager has set 2017-11-12T18:31:02Z Shinmera: That's standard behaviour 2017-11-12T18:31:23Z Shinmera: Unless other rules are invoked, subprocessed always inherit a copy of the environment 2017-11-12T18:31:29Z Shinmera: *subprocesses 2017-11-12T18:33:48Z Guest11245 is now known as CrazEd 2017-11-12T18:34:13Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:34:44Z CrazEd is now known as Guest15132 2017-11-12T18:35:35Z dra joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:38:41Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:39:52Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:41:49Z BigSafari joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:42:01Z didi joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:42:08Z k-stz: that's what I gathered as well, thinking the window manger being a subprocess of the login shell would do also inherit the environement variable from it. But couldn't imagine why the wm should set that variable. though it does run sbcl itself.. 2017-11-12T18:44:27Z didi: So I have a little grammar to describe a datum. I've been using keywords inside it, so it is independent of package, but is there a way to use plain symbols instead? 2017-11-12T18:46:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:47:27Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T18:50:40Z BigSafari: coming from clojure, why no sethash? (setf (gethash 'somekey ht) 'somevalue) seems verbose. easy to define you own sethash, but is there a rationale? 2017-11-12T18:50:43Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-11-12T18:51:01Z Shinmera: Because typically you use setf for everything. 2017-11-12T18:51:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T18:51:41Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T18:53:16Z Shinmera: If anyone's looking for something relaxing to do on this Sunday evening, the Lisp Treehouse is starting in ~7 minutes. http://stream.shinmera.com 2017-11-12T18:56:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:01:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:01:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:03:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:06:21Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:07:39Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T19:09:10Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:10:05Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T19:12:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:12:44Z phoe: I have a quest for someone willing with an Android NDK installed. 2017-11-12T19:13:16Z phoe: Could someone follow https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/INSTALL#L25 and send me the resulting ecl-android package? I'm trying to boot up ECL on Android 6 and need to make sure that it isn't my environment that is screwed up. 2017-11-12T19:14:09Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:15:01Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2017-11-12T19:16:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:17:20Z jlarocco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T19:17:38Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:19:08Z pfdietz: BigSafari: you can do more things with setf-able forms. For example, (incf (gethash 0)). 2017-11-12T19:21:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:22:48Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:25:16Z pfdietz: push, pushnew, pop, shiftf, rotatef, psetf, decf, remf, ccase, ctypecase, assert all can access/modify generalized references. More can be defined. 2017-11-12T19:27:18Z BigSafari: ok, nice extendable, didnt get it before now :-) 2017-11-12T19:28:54Z visof quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:29:16Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-12T19:30:18Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:30:24Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T19:32:59Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:32:59Z visof quit (Changing host) 2017-11-12T19:32:59Z visof joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:34:56Z Guest15132 is now known as CrazEd 2017-11-12T19:35:25Z CrazEd is now known as Guest48580 2017-11-12T19:37:09Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T19:37:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:37:32Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-12T19:37:57Z visof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T19:38:03Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I know that roswell apparently can install packages on GH, but I'd like to keep doing it in the repl if I can 2017-11-12T20:22:16Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T20:22:39Z BigSafari: https://www.darkchestnut.com/2016/quicklisp-load-personal-projects-from-arbitrary-locations/ 2017-11-12T20:23:46Z BigSafari quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-11-12T20:25:40Z pseudonymous: BigSafari: *very* cool :) I would've preferred a one-stop solution, but this is very do-able, thanks :) 2017-11-12T20:25:54Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T20:26:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-12T20:26:39Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T20:26:45Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-12T20:26:46Z elimik31 joined #lisp 2017-11-12T20:30:53Z jmercouris: Can you setf within a with-slots? 2017-11-12T20:34:09Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T20:34:36Z Bike: you can setf a with-slots variable, if that's what you mean 2017-11-12T20:34:46Z jmercouris: Bike: That's exactly what I meant, thank you 2017-11-12T20:35:56Z Guest48580 is now known as CrazEd 2017-11-12T20:36:25Z CrazEd is now known as Guest31855 2017-11-12T20:37:12Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T20:37:38Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-12T20:45:22Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-12T20:46:21Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-11-12T20:52:39Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-11-12T20:54:24Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-11-12T20:56:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:00:58Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-12T21:02:57Z HazWard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:03:27Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:03:50Z neoncont_ quit 2017-11-12T21:05:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:06:47Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:09:18Z vzerda joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:09:22Z jmercouris: If I have something like (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((self some-obj))) in a super-class, will classes that extend it also call the initialize-instance? 2017-11-12T21:09:55Z neoncontrails quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-12T21:09:56Z Bike: sure. 2017-11-12T21:10:09Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:10:22Z jmercouris: Interesting, what if it is also defined in the child class? 2017-11-12T21:10:29Z jmercouris: Will the child class call both methods or just one of them? 2017-11-12T21:10:40Z jmercouris: I assume that it will just call the child method 2017-11-12T21:10:56Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm no need to assume 2017-11-12T21:11:11Z ajpocus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-12T21:11:20Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T21:11:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:11:46Z Bike: which is to say, no, you're incorrect 2017-11-12T21:12:30Z vzerda quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-12T21:12:34Z jmercouris: It'll call all of them? 2017-11-12T21:12:46Z jmercouris: It seems that it'd have to invoke call-next-method? 2017-11-12T21:13:16Z vzerda joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:13:22Z jmercouris: No wait, I'm totally wrong, let me re-read this document 2017-11-12T21:13:23Z Bike: "All the after methods are called in most-specific-last order. Their values are ignored. An error is signaled if call-next-method is used in an after method. " 2017-11-12T21:13:47Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:13:56Z jmercouris: So it will call first the parent, and then the child 2017-11-12T21:13:56Z HazWard joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:14:04Z jmercouris: I assume this is because of multiple inheritance? 2017-11-12T21:14:12Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T21:14:24Z Bike: multiple inheritance doesn't seem related to me 2017-11-12T21:14:29Z jmercouris: It seems related to me 2017-11-12T21:14:41Z jmercouris: One can't invoke something like [super parent] when there are multiple parents 2017-11-12T21:14:52Z jmercouris: Therefore, the system has to call all of the parent constructors by default 2017-11-12T21:14:56Z Bike: oh, well, yes, super wouldn't make sense 2017-11-12T21:15:38Z jmercouris: Just a theory, I obviously have no idea why the language designers designed it this way 2017-11-12T21:15:39Z jmercouris: but a thought 2017-11-12T21:16:04Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:17:05Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:17:45Z Bike: constructors (that is to say, object initialization) isn't usually as major a thing in lisp than in C++ or whatever, in my experience 2017-11-12T21:24:17Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:27:20Z Josh_2: Does the loop keyword :with var := change each iteration? 2017-11-12T21:28:45Z Josh_2: Nope it does not 2017-11-12T21:32:43Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:32:53Z vzerda quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:33:41Z tumdum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:35:33Z karswell_ is now known as karswell 2017-11-12T21:36:56Z Guest31855 is now known as CrazEd 2017-11-12T21:37:26Z CrazEd is now known as Guest64418 2017-11-12T21:37:29Z sondr3 quit (Quit: Quit) 2017-11-12T21:37:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:40:19Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-11-12T21:40:32Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:46:32Z Shinmera: for var = x does 2017-11-12T21:46:40Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-12T21:48:05Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:51:10Z Josh_2: That's what I ended up with ty Shinmera 2017-11-12T21:52:13Z Josh_2: Shinmera: I got to your stream just as you finished, the only thing I heard "goodnight everybody" 2017-11-12T21:53:49Z vzerda joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:56:43Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-12T21:58:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T21:59:07Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:03:22Z Guest64418 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T22:05:13Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:08:45Z mr_yogurt joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:09:35Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-12T22:09:39Z mr_yogurt: What are common uses of dynamic scoping? 2017-11-12T22:18:19Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:20:59Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T22:23:14Z pjb: mr_yogurt: *print-…* variables. 2017-11-12T22:23:53Z AX31_A13X joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:24:09Z mr_yogurt: pjb: is that it? i already knew about that use case 2017-11-12T22:25:54Z pjb: To evaluate the commonality of the use of dynamic scoping, use: find ~/quicklisp -name \*.lisp -exec grep -nHi 'declare.*special' {} + 2017-11-12T22:26:11Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T22:28:17Z pjb: you will see that it's actually very rarely used, and where it's used it's rather quaint and it should probably be refactored out. 2017-11-12T22:29:36Z pjb: eg. in cl-ppcre convert, using defmacro to define list accessors is lame. The CL way to do that would be (defstruct (flags (:type list) (:conc-name ||)) case-insensitive-mode-p multi-line-mode-p single-line-mode-p). 2017-11-12T22:30:19Z pjb: but it's another problem. 2017-11-12T22:31:09Z pjb: mr_yogurt: so one valid use is to easily mask off the current binding temporarily. 2017-11-12T22:31:53Z pjb: But often it would be more efficient to refactor it in a more functional way, using only lexical bindings. 2017-11-12T22:34:05Z Shinmera: Josh_2: It'll be up on youtube soon. 2017-11-12T22:34:34Z phoe: dynamic vars come you need to have some kind of semi-global state in your code 2017-11-12T22:34:55Z phoe: come where you need* 2017-11-12T22:35:17Z phoe: that's where DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER shine pretty well 2017-11-12T22:35:26Z pjb: Well, it is unfortunate that CL provides for global variables only dynamic bindings (defvar, defparameter, and even defconstant even if you cannot rebind constant variables). 2017-11-12T22:35:50Z phoe: how can you imagine a lexical binding for global variables? 2017-11-12T22:35:51Z pjb: Because most global variables don't need to be special. 2017-11-12T22:36:04Z phoe: oh, that, correct 2017-11-12T22:36:14Z pjb: phoe: define-symbol-macro is global lexical binding. 2017-11-12T22:36:27Z Shinmera: mr_yogurt: In my parsers I usually use dynamic scoping for the current parsing context. That avoids having to pass the context around all the time, and lets me have it only be valid during parsing, making any of the parsing functions error outside of the proper context. 2017-11-12T22:36:51Z Shinmera: mr_yogurt: Furthermore, being able to bind the current context dynamically can be advantageous for sub-region parsing, or other things like that. 2017-11-12T22:36:58Z libre-man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-12T22:37:03Z pjb: Shinmera: have you measured it. I'm not sure that it's faster at all. Accessing dynamic variables may be rather costly, notably in presence of threads! 2017-11-12T22:37:21Z Shinmera: pjb: I don't think I said anything about fast. 2017-11-12T22:37:36Z mr_yogurt: how does CL implement dynamic vars? 2017-11-12T22:37:42Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:38:14Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T22:38:18Z pjb: mr_yogurt: CL doesn't implement anything. It specifies. 2017-11-12T22:38:31Z mr_yogurt: pjb: sbcl then 2017-11-12T22:38:33Z pjb: Implementations usually implement a superset of a subset of CL. 2017-11-12T22:38:36Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:38:37Z pjb: Ask in #sbcl. 2017-11-12T22:38:53Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:40:46Z Bike: memory or TLS slot with a stack in it 2017-11-12T22:44:23Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T22:45:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T22:46:11Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:47:12Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:49:50Z libre-man joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:50:24Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-11-12T22:54:38Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-12T22:55:23Z Shinmera: Josh_2: Here you go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7DoAb03NKM 2017-11-12T22:58:09Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:00:26Z Josh_2: Neat 2017-11-12T23:00:53Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:01:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:06:01Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:07:01Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:09:04Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T23:09:19Z pseudonymous quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T23:09:32Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:15:22Z scottj left #lisp 2017-11-12T23:18:04Z jamtho quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-12T23:22:07Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T23:23:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:25:39Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T23:30:40Z mr_yogurt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-12T23:31:52Z frostwind joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:33:54Z frostwind left #lisp 2017-11-12T23:35:05Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-12T23:42:37Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T23:45:07Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-12T23:48:15Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T23:51:00Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-12T23:53:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:03:45Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:09:44Z ym: How do I convert PDF to cons tree? I found only cl-pdf, but seems like it can only generate and parse. 2017-11-13T00:11:20Z pierpa: (cons 'pdf 42) 2017-11-13T00:12:49Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:13:48Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:17:30Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T00:17:46Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-11-13T00:19:11Z dra quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:19:17Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:21:36Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T00:35:45Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:37:19Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:37:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:38:00Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-11-13T00:39:10Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-13T00:40:19Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T00:42:50Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-13T00:43:34Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-13T00:43:46Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-13T00:44:22Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:45:35Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T00:46:12Z keep_learning joined #lisp 2017-11-13T00:46:18Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-11-13T00:46:25Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:54:28Z ym: Seems like prescript is what I need. 2017-11-13T00:54:45Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-13T00:55:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:02:23Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:04:13Z asarch: You are in your new job, sitting in front of a brand new All-In-One HP PC desktop, you cannot change nor install anything in that system, your only Lisp environment to improve your work is a copy of the last release of Emacs. 2017-11-13T01:04:30Z asarch: Is Emacs a "decent" Lisp environment? 2017-11-13T01:05:31Z asarch: You know, the best is SBCL but in life... 2017-11-13T01:05:46Z Bike: it's not common lisp. it's a different language 2017-11-13T01:06:21Z aeth: Emacs superficially looks like Common Lisp, and even borrows most of Common Lisp in the form of cl-foo macros/functions, but it is not Common Lisp under the hood and the intuition built for one doesn't apply to the other. 2017-11-13T01:06:43Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:06:58Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is slow and interpreted, so you mostly want to rely on built-ins. Writing fast Emacs Lisp is a totally different experience than writing fast Common Lisp. 2017-11-13T01:06:58Z asarch: I know, I know, but actually, it is somehow Lisp 2017-11-13T01:07:32Z aeth: Common Lisp is full of rich types, many libraries, and is usually quite optimized. 2017-11-13T01:08:40Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:09:09Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is basically 1983ish Lisp programming because that's what RMS was used to when writing GNU Emacs. 2017-11-13T01:09:26Z aeth: Sure, Common Lisp itself is kind of stuck in the 90s in many ways, but that's a whole extra decade of convenience 2017-11-13T01:10:31Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:10:35Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:10:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:10:55Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:11:38Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:13:14Z aeth: One huge issue with historic Lisps (and even many Schemes) compared to Common Lisp is that you rely on lists far too often to do things that you'd use a different (and probably more efficient and faster) thing for in CL. 2017-11-13T01:13:35Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:14:13Z aeth: It might be more elegant, but you could easily get an accidental 10x slowdown, which is a noticably worse experience. 2017-11-13T01:16:03Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:16:53Z aeth: Unless you have immutable lists and are willing to do a lot of magic behind the scenes in the compiler, you're going to have to use something other than lists for most things. The historic approach of using lists for everything, which many historic Lisps encourage, doesn't work more efficiently than alternatives when those lists are mutable cons cells. 2017-11-13T01:17:46Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:21:05Z aeth: e.g. For representing matrices, you probably want a 1D array with a special matref function, or a 2D array (which ideally would be just as efficient when compiled as the former), or even use foreign C memory like the static-vectors library does. Not lists. 2017-11-13T01:21:34Z aeth: And mathematical vectors are small enough that you could even consider just having multiple return values as an efficient representation! 2017-11-13T01:21:35Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:22:40Z aeth: That's the flexibility that CL gives you. 2017-11-13T01:24:43Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:27:27Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:27:28Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T01:27:36Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:27:45Z dotc quit (Quit: restart, brb) 2017-11-13T01:28:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-13T01:29:42Z dotc joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:29:52Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:30:24Z borei joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:30:34Z borei: hi all ! 2017-11-13T01:31:31Z borei: quick question - i need to generate key for hash table, the approach that i found is the following: 2017-11-13T01:32:19Z borei: (symbol-name (gensym (symbol-name(type-of *atom1*)))), where *atom1* is gonna be value for that key 2017-11-13T01:32:27Z borei: does it make sense ? 2017-11-13T01:32:41Z pjb: nope. 2017-11-13T01:32:48Z pjb: type-of can return non-symbol. 2017-11-13T01:32:53Z pjb: You can use the type directly as a key. 2017-11-13T01:33:58Z pjb: (let ((h (make-hash-table :test (function equal))) (v (make-array 3 :element-type 'character))) (setf (gethash (type-of 42) h) 42 (gethash (type-of v) h) v) (gethash (type-of 42) h)) #| --> 42 ; t |# 2017-11-13T01:35:31Z Guest44476: nice 2017-11-13T01:35:39Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:35:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T01:35:59Z borei: ok 2017-11-13T01:36:05Z Guest44476: that was slick actually 2017-11-13T01:36:07Z pjb: (let ((h (make-hash-table :test (function equal))) (v (make-array 3 :element-type 'character))) (setf (gethash (type-of 42) h) 42 (gethash (type-of v) h) v) (let (ks) (maphash (lambda (k v) (push k ks)) h) ks)) #| --> ((integer 0 1152921504606846975) (simple-base-string 3)) |# 2017-11-13T01:36:08Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:36:20Z pjb: the actual keys depend on the implementation. 2017-11-13T01:36:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:36:41Z pjb: If you want something more conforming, you would have to map the types explicitely. Perhaps using typecase. 2017-11-13T01:37:03Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:38:46Z borei: ic 2017-11-13T01:40:02Z borei: hmm, can i add something to the key, which is type-of of my object, i mean i need to add some index to it 2017-11-13T01:40:08Z jameser quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-11-13T01:40:16Z borei: so key will be unique 2017-11-13T01:40:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:40:58Z Bike: can you not just use the object as a key? 2017-11-13T01:41:15Z borei: because in my case (type-of ) will be returning moslty one value 2017-11-13T01:41:40Z paul0 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:41:50Z borei: bike: im just looking for the options that i have 2017-11-13T01:41:51Z Bike: but why can't you use the object itself? 2017-11-13T01:42:17Z borei: you mean key is a obj and value as a obj ? 2017-11-13T01:42:38Z Bike: i don't know, what's the hash table for? how is it used? 2017-11-13T01:43:59Z borei: set of the objects which will be rendered 2017-11-13T01:44:18Z Bike: you're using the hash table ase a set? 2017-11-13T01:44:57Z pjb: Why don't you use a list? 2017-11-13T01:45:07Z borei: why not ? i just don't know why it is wrong approach. 2017-11-13T01:45:19Z borei: list can work for sure 2017-11-13T01:45:43Z pjb: Because gethash is O(64000), while push is O(1). 2017-11-13T01:45:46Z Bike: using the hash table as a set is a fine thing to do 2017-11-13T01:46:29Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:46:42Z pjb: Not when you just fill the table once, and then process the values once, as in a render list! 2017-11-13T01:47:00Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-13T01:47:15Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:49:49Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-13T01:51:52Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:52:05Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2017-11-13T01:55:32Z AX31_A13X quit (Quit: AX31_A13X) 2017-11-13T01:55:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:55:55Z elimik31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:58:01Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:59:29Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-13T01:59:50Z borei: pjb: can you please explain "type-of can return non-symbol." ??? 2017-11-13T02:00:02Z pjb: See example above. 2017-11-13T02:00:25Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:01:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T02:03:51Z wheelsucker quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T02:06:27Z asarch: So, definitely, I would stay away from Emacs 2017-11-13T02:06:32Z asarch: Thank you guys 2017-11-13T02:06:37Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-11-13T02:06:54Z borei: pjb: (type-of (type-of (make-array 3 :element-type 'character))) 2017-11-13T02:06:54Z borei: CONS 2017-11-13T02:06:55Z borei: ? 2017-11-13T02:07:27Z borei: in my approach - i'd exepect symbol 2017-11-13T02:08:52Z aeth: asarch: well, usually people use Emacs as the Common Lisp development environment, with slime and paredit (or something similar for parentheses management) 2017-11-13T02:09:35Z aeth: There is real no FOSS competition for Lisp (slime) and Scheme (geiser) development. 2017-11-13T02:10:35Z asarch: Thank you 2017-11-13T02:13:57Z asarch: There is a programming language called Elm (it transpiles into JavaScript). A guy wrote Ellie, the Elm on-line development environment written entirely in JavaScript. You can use as many cores as your system have to compile the code and even use it off-line: 2017-11-13T02:14:05Z asarch: https://ellie-app.com/new 2017-11-13T02:14:16Z asarch: Is there something similar for SBCL? 2017-11-13T02:15:56Z borei: i started to dive into lisp and emacs 5-6 months ago - from real scratch, i had 0 experience with both of them. Initially i was f...g out, but now once i started to gain some momentum it's getting better. It's just inconvinient some time, not as usual as it was befor. Im trying to follow drmeister approach ".... those languages are just the languages that people started using and so they keep using them.  It is not a choice most people 2017-11-13T02:15:56Z borei: make – it is inertia." I was fighting my inertia, still fighting, but i see results. 2017-11-13T02:16:58Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:17:13Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:19:25Z drmeister: Yes, yes! Let the s-expressions flow through you...! 2017-11-13T02:19:52Z borei: too early :-) 2017-11-13T02:21:19Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T02:21:51Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T02:26:06Z turkja: borei: it for sure is syntactically totally alien in the beginning... i'm also still getting into it.. i've been programming in lisp for about 1,5 years. it's just that i can't go back anymore because of the way lisp code is developed. I mean, lisp/emacs/slime, and the whole thing concept of iterative/interactive/live programming, and the integration of everything, having the live compiler in the image... heck you could even patch the comp 2017-11-13T02:26:07Z turkja: iler live etc. This i cannot get anywhere else, so no turning back. 2017-11-13T02:27:26Z Xal: turkja: ever tried haskell? 2017-11-13T02:28:30Z turkja: Xal: no, i started with CL and have checked other lisp dialects every now and then, but i feel i have still like 10 years of fun with CL :) 2017-11-13T02:28:31Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T02:28:40Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:28:47Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:30:24Z turkja: Xal: with "anywhere else" i mean mostly the usual suspects, like C++, java, python.. 2017-11-13T02:30:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T02:31:42Z pjb`: borei: so first you see it's not a quick question. second, you would be better served if you explained what you want to do, since it looks like your proposed form is inadequate for anything. 2017-11-13T02:33:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:34:18Z aeth: turkja: Smalltalk would probably be the closest language to what you're talking about. 2017-11-13T02:34:29Z aeth: Afaik, CL got this from Smalltalk 2017-11-13T02:35:13Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:35:36Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persistence 2017-11-13T02:35:44Z jlarocco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T02:35:51Z borei: pjb: im absolutely good with your answer, i see where im wrong, and i got some food to digest. 2017-11-13T02:35:52Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T02:36:07Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_image#Programming_language_support 2017-11-13T02:36:21Z aeth: At least according to Wikipedia, this is basically just Smalltalk and Lisp. 2017-11-13T02:36:30Z borei: to "have fish" against "to know hot to fish" :-) 2017-11-13T02:36:43Z borei: "how to fish" ^^ 2017-11-13T02:37:02Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:37:52Z vzerda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T02:38:50Z turkja: aeth: Smalltalk is cool... i mean i never programmed it but still :D 2017-11-13T02:42:33Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:42:56Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-11-13T02:45:25Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:47:28Z loke`: turkja: It's kind of neat, but I have issues with it. 2017-11-13T02:47:34Z borei: when i've created object of certain type and i request value of that object, im getting (#) that numbers what is it ? 2017-11-13T02:48:24Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:48:34Z borei: address ? 2017-11-13T02:48:37Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:48:57Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-13T02:50:03Z loke`: borei: It could be. It has no meaning other than to help you distinguish multilpe instanes of the same class. 2017-11-13T02:50:28Z loke`: It can't really be the address, since a relocating collector may move an object around. 2017-11-13T02:51:16Z borei: tks ! 2017-11-13T02:53:07Z loke`: borei: If you7 want to implement your own textual representation of the object, just implementt he PRINT-OBJECT method 2017-11-13T02:53:32Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-13T02:54:14Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T02:56:57Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T03:01:54Z pjb`: borei: beware that type and class are two different concepts in Common Lisp. 2017-11-13T03:02:02Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-13T03:02:51Z pjb: When objects are printed with #< it's the class name that is used, not the type of the object. The type can be different, notably for instances of system classes. 2017-11-13T03:07:19Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-11-13T03:10:00Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-13T03:10:18Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T03:11:04Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-13T03:19:12Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-13T03:24:29Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-11-13T03:29:52Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T03:41:12Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T03:41:43Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-13T03:43:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T03:46:20Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T03:48:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T03:59:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-13T04:02:15Z drmeister: In Clasp (and I'm told in sbcl) they allocate simple-base-string's with one extra byte for null terminated strings for C interoperation. Is there ever a reason to allocate more space like that for anything else? 2017-11-13T04:03:36Z hellcode joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:03:43Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-13T04:04:37Z drmeister: In order to support the Memory Pool System GC I need to be able to calculate the size of objects from their contents and I just realized that I need to special case simple-base-string for the reason above. I can add a more general mechanism - but I don't see a compelling reason to do so. 2017-11-13T04:04:54Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:05:32Z Bike: other than alignment and padding stuff nothing comes to mind. 2017-11-13T04:08:27Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-13T04:12:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T04:14:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:14:30Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T04:15:25Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:19:53Z drmeister: Ok - thanks. 2017-11-13T04:20:12Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T04:21:01Z pjb: drmeister: more vectors are null terminated in usual C programming. 2017-11-13T04:21:06Z pjb: drmeister: for example, envv and argv. 2017-11-13T04:21:32Z pjb: drmeister: ie. "lists" implemented as vectors of variable length are often terminated with a null pointer. 2017-11-13T04:22:36Z drmeister: Hmmm, those are good examples - but the terminating null would be counted in their length. 2017-11-13T04:22:42Z drmeister: Not so with null terminated strings. 2017-11-13T04:25:51Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:25:51Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T04:26:11Z Gordo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:26:43Z pfdietz: TYPE-OF returns a type specifier, which can be a symbol, a list, or a class object. Is there a clhs bot? 2017-11-13T04:26:54Z pfdietz: clhs: type-of 2017-11-13T04:26:59Z pfdietz: Hmm. 2017-11-13T04:27:03Z Bike: clhs type-of 2017-11-13T04:27:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm 2017-11-13T04:27:09Z pfdietz: :) 2017-11-13T04:27:54Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-13T04:31:21Z jstoddard quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-13T04:38:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:40:54Z hellcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T04:43:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T04:46:19Z pjb: drmeister: perhaps you want to be able to do (execv (vector "ls" "-l")) without copying the vector and adding null? 2017-11-13T04:57:56Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2017-11-13T04:57:57Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-13T04:59:13Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:02:33Z drmeister: How would I do that? 2017-11-13T05:05:11Z pjb: Well, it depends on the representation of data, but the idea would be to add a 0-element to all the vectors, so the case for strings wouldn't be an exception. But of course, it would means that any pointer to a cl:string would have to be a pointer to the cstring (C array of char), and the lisp attributes would have to be stored at other (probably negative) offsets. 2017-11-13T05:05:46Z pjb: This could be an implementation strategy for a CL implementation that would aim for data types compatible with C. 2017-11-13T05:10:02Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T05:10:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:13:59Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-13T05:18:13Z beach: Sounds bad. 2017-11-13T05:19:30Z pjb: yes 2017-11-13T05:23:12Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T05:28:21Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:31:29Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:34:26Z dmiles: I got TAGBODY/GO working nice! https://pastebin.com/j3ry0Cy9 2017-11-13T05:34:55Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T05:36:34Z dmiles: for return-from i'll still have to use catch/throw though 2017-11-13T05:38:30Z beach: Congratulations. 2017-11-13T05:39:27Z moei joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:42:47Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:43:02Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:43:27Z asarch: I was compiling SBCL 1.4.0 for Slackware 64 and it failed: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/565732 2017-11-13T05:43:32Z asarch: Why? 2017-11-13T05:44:04Z asarch: What went wrong? 2017-11-13T05:46:48Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:46:52Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2017-11-13T05:46:52Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:47:02Z frgo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T05:47:41Z frgo quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-13T05:47:54Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T05:50:17Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-13T05:51:11Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T05:52:09Z Gordo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T05:56:30Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T05:57:27Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T06:01:57Z pillton: This is a good idea: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/DV/html/delivery-20.htm#pgfId-865189 2017-11-13T06:02:39Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T06:03:47Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-13T06:06:26Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-13T06:07:28Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-13T06:09:59Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2017-11-13T09:57:42Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:00:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:02:45Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:04:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:06:27Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T10:09:10Z dim: hi 2017-11-13T10:09:35Z dim: is there any known traps when moving handler-bind forms into a macro? 2017-11-13T10:09:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:10:20Z Shinmera: Traps like what 2017-11-13T10:10:42Z dim: like it used to work and now doesn't anymore, as in the condition is not “caught” by my handler 2017-11-13T10:10:59Z Shinmera: Macros just expand to code, so 2017-11-13T10:11:15Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/mysql/mysql.lisp#L87 2017-11-13T10:11:18Z dim: for specifics 2017-11-13T10:11:32Z dim: Shinmera: yeah, I'm trying to get ideas to debug, I feel stuck 2017-11-13T10:11:36Z jackdaniel: there are traps with moving handler-case into handler-bind, because despite superficial similarity they work different 2017-11-13T10:11:43Z Shinmera: dim: Try using call-with-style 2017-11-13T10:11:45Z dim: line 137 of the same file uses the macro 2017-11-13T10:12:09Z dim: jackdaniel: it was an handler-bind already before, because I need to catch a lower level signal (babel decoding) 2017-11-13T10:12:30Z dim: pgloader calls into qmynd that calls into babel, and the error handling is done in pgloader 2017-11-13T10:12:41Z dim: Shinmera: mmm, okay, trying 2017-11-13T10:12:57Z Shinmera: Anyway, there are no "gotchas" specifically related to what you're asking. 2017-11-13T10:13:16Z dim: I didn't think there would be, but I've been surprised before 2017-11-13T10:13:21Z Shinmera: Try *break-on-signals* to see if it is even happening 2017-11-13T10:13:24Z dim: (surprised as in wrong) 2017-11-13T10:13:41Z jackdaniel: macro looks just fine at first glance 2017-11-13T10:13:45Z Shinmera: *if the condition is even happening 2017-11-13T10:13:48Z jackdaniel: (as in - should work) 2017-11-13T10:13:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:13:52Z dim: oh I have a backtrace with 0: ((:INTERNAL (PGLOADER.SOURCES:MAP-ROWS (PGLOADER.MYSQL:COPY-MYSQL))) #) Locals: PGLOADER.MYSQL::C = # 2017-11-13T10:14:30Z jackdaniel: you don't catch invalid-gbk-byte 2017-11-13T10:14:30Z dim: invalid-gbk-byte has Super classes: # 2017-11-13T10:14:34Z jackdaniel: aha 2017-11-13T10:14:43Z dim: sorry didn't type and copy/paste fast enough 2017-11-13T10:15:01Z dim: Precedence List: INVALID-GBK-BYTE, CHARACTER-DECODING-ERROR, CHARACTER-CODING-ERROR, ERROR, SERIOUS-CONDITION, CONDITION, STANDARD-OBJECT, T 2017-11-13T10:15:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:15:06Z dim: that's maybe even more interesting here 2017-11-13T10:15:35Z dim: oh 2017-11-13T10:15:44Z dim: sorry I just came to understand what's happening now 2017-11-13T10:15:48Z dim: reading the backtrace for real 2017-11-13T10:15:59Z dim: the error I have happens *within* my signal handler! 2017-11-13T10:16:04Z dim: Array index 2 out of bounds for #(163 128) . 2017-11-13T10:16:09Z dim: that's from within my handler 2017-11-13T10:16:16Z Shinmera: That's something call-with-style would've showed you much quicker. 2017-11-13T10:16:58Z elimik31 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:17:09Z Shinmera: Unless you have performance constraints, using call-with-style for with-* macros is a really good practise. 2017-11-13T10:17:30Z dim: in that case, error handling is in the inner-inner loop for pgloader 2017-11-13T10:17:43Z dim: errors shouldn't happen often, but still 2017-11-13T10:18:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:22:40Z dotc joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:22:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:23:24Z dim: 2017-11-13T11:23:10.358374+01:00 ERROR funny_string: Illegal GBK character starting at position 2. 2017-11-13T10:23:33Z dim: ok now it's handled, and using the call-with style 2017-11-13T10:25:27Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:26:24Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:26:42Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T10:27:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:29:16Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/1d7706c04585b0d647f8551b23ebc172c9398ec4 for details, in case you're interested 2017-11-13T10:29:19Z dim: thanks! 2017-11-13T10:32:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:33:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:36:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:41:04Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:41:52Z loke`: dim: Mysql? 2017-11-13T10:41:58Z loke`: Pgloader supprots mysql? 2017-11-13T10:43:11Z dim: as a data source, yes, sure 2017-11-13T10:43:40Z dim: pgloader is now able to do fully automated database migrations from X to PostgreSQL, for X being MS SQL, SQLite and MySQL 2017-11-13T10:43:51Z dim: customers are asking about Oracle and Sybase, so I guess that's next 2017-11-13T10:44:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:46:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:47:35Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:47:53Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:48:10Z drcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T10:50:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:50:49Z loke`: dim: We could definitely use Oracle and Sybase. 2017-11-13T10:51:00Z loke`: Those are the database our customers use, and we'll support mssql soon. 2017-11-13T10:51:11Z loke`: We have a similar internal conversion tool, but it's slow as fuck./ 2017-11-13T10:51:19Z loke`: pgloader would be very useful here. 2017-11-13T10:52:08Z loke`: Although the Postgres support isn't implemented yet. :-) 2017-11-13T10:53:54Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T10:54:42Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T10:55:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:55:47Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:56:25Z anonus left #lisp 2017-11-13T10:56:40Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-11-13T10:59:28Z nika quit 2017-11-13T10:59:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:00:28Z dim: as a source you mean? 2017-11-13T11:00:45Z dim: loke`: I will be very happy to have a contributor to pgloader if you're interested in joining the fun! 2017-11-13T11:00:59Z dim: otherwise your company can sponsor my work to add Oracle/Sybase! 2017-11-13T11:01:20Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:01:40Z loke`: dim: Right now we don't need to copy to postgres yet, because the application hasn't been ported to Postgres. They will (hopefully) do that once the mssql port is finished. 2017-11-13T11:01:59Z loke`: If you have mssql as a destimation, we could use it right now. 2017-11-13T11:02:01Z loke`: :-) 2017-11-13T11:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:03:09Z dim: Xach: when you have time, could you have a look at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/667 ; it might be a QL/buildapp bug there 2017-11-13T11:04:02Z dim: the only destination for pgloader is currently PostgreSQL of course 2017-11-13T11:04:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:04:23Z dim: I'm not sure I want to change that... but you could use the code as a framework/lib to add any features you need/want of course 2017-11-13T11:04:23Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:05:13Z loke`: It's OK. I'll be looing closer at pgloader once we have pg support :-) 2017-11-13T11:05:42Z dim: nice! 2017-11-13T11:05:48Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T11:05:56Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:09:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:10:24Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:12:09Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:13:01Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:13:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:15:39Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:17:42Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:17:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:19:10Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T11:19:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:20:43Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:21:20Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:22:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:23:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:23:41Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:24:17Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:24:42Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:26:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:30:18Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:31:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:32:38Z norserob joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:34:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:34:27Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:34:51Z panji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T11:35:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:40:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:44:15Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-11-13T11:45:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:46:37Z murii is now known as Murii 2017-11-13T11:47:25Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:49:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:49:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:49:52Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-11-13T11:50:21Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:02:05Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:03:08Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-11-13T12:06:27Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:08:08Z Posterdati: hi 2017-11-13T12:09:12Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:10:44Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:12:50Z phoe: hey 2017-11-13T12:13:25Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:13:35Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:14:50Z Posterdati: how can I query a dns server using drakma? 2017-11-13T12:15:02Z Shinmera: DNS is not an HTTP protocol. 2017-11-13T12:15:09Z Shinmera: So: you cannot. 2017-11-13T12:15:35Z Posterdati: Shinmera: ok, because it is binary 2017-11-13T12:15:46Z Posterdati: only socket then... 2017-11-13T12:16:05Z Shinmera: Binary or not has nothing to do with it. HTTP and DNS are separate protocols. They need different clients. 2017-11-13T12:16:25Z phoe: https://github.com/fjames86/dragons 2017-11-13T12:16:29Z phoe: that's what google tells me 2017-11-13T12:16:47Z pjb: HTTP is a binary protocol. 2017-11-13T12:17:11Z phoe: all protocols are binary protocols when we look from a far away enough perspective 2017-11-13T12:17:36Z phoe: via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_protocol 2017-11-13T12:17:42Z phoe: "A binary protocol is a protocol which is intended to be read by a machine rather than a human being, as opposed to a plain text protocol such as IRC, SMTP, or HTTP. " 2017-11-13T12:17:45Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:17:46Z phoe: pjb: ^ 2017-11-13T12:17:50Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2017-11-13T12:18:34Z Posterdati: (uiop:run-program "dig TXT @ns1.google.com +short o-o.myaddr.1.google.com") 2017-11-13T12:18:41Z Posterdati: NIL 2017-11-13T12:18:43Z Posterdati: NIL 2017-11-13T12:18:43Z Posterdati: 0 2017-11-13T12:19:00Z Posterdati: $ dig TXT @ns1.google.com +short o-o.myaddr.1.google.com "80.183.64.145" 2017-11-13T12:19:09Z phoe: Posterdati: pastebin pls 2017-11-13T12:19:17Z Shinmera: UIOP does not capture stdout by default 2017-11-13T12:19:28Z Shinmera: or rather run-program doesn't 2017-11-13T12:19:44Z pjb: what's wrong with dragon? 2017-11-13T12:20:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:20:52Z phoe: also https://rosettacode.org/wiki/DNS_query#Common_Lisp mentions iolib 2017-11-13T12:21:12Z phoe: and also mentions usocket that has a GET-HOSTS-BY-NAME function 2017-11-13T12:22:19Z Posterdati: phoe: I need to get the adsl ip connection value 2017-11-13T12:22:50Z phoe: Posterdati: what do you mean by adsl ip connection value? 2017-11-13T12:23:11Z Posterdati: the ip which is assigned by ISP to my modem 2017-11-13T12:23:14Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-11-13T12:23:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:23:27Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:23:41Z Shinmera: What does DNS have to do with that 2017-11-13T12:23:46Z phoe: it doesn't 2017-11-13T12:23:56Z phoe: use any kind of external API like https://www.ipify.org/ 2017-11-13T12:24:02Z Shinmera: Or just ask your OS 2017-11-13T12:24:12Z phoe: ^ 2017-11-13T12:24:29Z phoe: if you're using ADSL, then your OS should have the proper external IP already assigned to it. 2017-11-13T12:24:30Z Posterdati: dig TXT @ns1.google.com +short o-o.myaddr.1.google.com 2017-11-13T12:24:38Z Posterdati: it has, by using dig 2017-11-13T12:24:41Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:24:45Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:25:49Z Posterdati: phoe: no, the OS hasn't got the proper external IP... The router has it 2017-11-13T12:25:58Z phoe: Posterdati: where is the router? 2017-11-13T12:26:07Z Posterdati: router/modem 2017-11-13T12:26:11Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:26:23Z phoe: how is the router/modem connected to your computer? USB? WiFi? LAN? 2017-11-13T12:26:31Z Posterdati: phoe: LAN 2017-11-13T12:26:38Z phoe: in this case use ipify. 2017-11-13T12:26:55Z phoe: will be much simpler than querying your router and independent of hardware changes. 2017-11-13T12:27:19Z phoe: DNS cannot tell you anything about your external IP address, it's the wrong protocol for this thing. 2017-11-13T12:27:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:27:56Z Posterdati: phoe: what about this then --> dig TXT @ns1.google.com +short o-o.myaddr.1.google.com 2017-11-13T12:28:39Z phoe: Posterdati: if it works, then sure - your CL basically tells Linux to ask Google for your IP this way 2017-11-13T12:29:01Z Posterdati: phoe: exactly! 2017-11-13T12:29:22Z phoe: good then 2017-11-13T12:29:36Z Posterdati: phoe: but this ipify you mention would be better 2017-11-13T12:29:48Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:29:51Z phoe: because you can use drakma :) 2017-11-13T12:29:57Z Posterdati: phoe: yes 2017-11-13T12:30:00Z phoe: and make a simple REST query. 2017-11-13T12:30:14Z phoe: so you become independent of dig and dependent on drakma. 2017-11-13T12:30:43Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:31:32Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:32:17Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-11-13T12:32:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:33:04Z Posterdati: phoe: dependency is a must have today... :) 2017-11-13T12:35:09Z Posterdati: phoe: (drakma:http-request "https://api.ipify.org" :method :get) 2017-11-13T12:35:15Z Posterdati: phoe: sounds great to me 2017-11-13T12:36:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:36:45Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:37:48Z Posterdati: phoe: thanks! 2017-11-13T12:38:05Z phoe: Posterdati: no problem 2017-11-13T12:39:38Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:41:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:41:52Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:45:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:50:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:53:07Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T12:54:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:55:35Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:56:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:57:51Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T12:59:25Z phadthai joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:59:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T12:59:32Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-11-13T13:00:18Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-11-13T13:00:35Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T13:01:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T13:03:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T13:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T13:07:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T13:08:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T13:09:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-13T13:12:20Z shifty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T13:13:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T13:14:30Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-13T13:15:59Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T14:02:33Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:02:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:08:56Z okflo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:14:48Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:18:06Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T14:24:45Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-13T14:25:04Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:25:43Z Achylles: is there a range function for lisp? Like (1..10) 2017-11-13T14:25:57Z Achylles: How do I print this range? 2017-11-13T14:26:25Z lieven: Achylles: such a function is not included in the standard 2017-11-13T14:26:59Z Achylles: :( 2017-11-13T14:27:01Z lieven: (loop for i from 1 to 10 do (format t "~A~%" i)) or variations thereof 2017-11-13T14:27:34Z beach: Achylles: What is it that you would like to do with such a range? 2017-11-13T14:28:10Z marvin2: as far as range alone the closet there is in standard library is: (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i) 2017-11-13T14:28:28Z beach: Exactly. 2017-11-13T14:28:51Z Achylles: I am studying maths and I'd like to represent the natural numbers set with in maths is: N {1,2,3,4,5,...} 2017-11-13T14:29:11Z jackdaniel: you may be interested in library series 2017-11-13T14:29:12Z jollygood2 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:29:23Z Achylles: and N* {0,1,2,3,4,5,...} 2017-11-13T14:29:29Z beach: That's different. The natural numbers is an infinite set, not a range. 2017-11-13T14:29:54Z Shinmera: You'll want lazy sequences or generators for that kind of thing. 2017-11-13T14:30:33Z Achylles: Shinmera, give me an example... 2017-11-13T14:31:01Z beach: Achylles: It would be much better if you gave examples of what you want to do with the infinite sets and with ranges. 2017-11-13T14:31:45Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-11-13T14:31:59Z jackdaniel: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node1.html has appendixes describing series and generators 2017-11-13T14:32:06Z jackdaniel: they are both not part of the standard 2017-11-13T14:32:12Z jackdaniel: but series are implemented as a library for sure 2017-11-13T14:32:16Z jackdaniel: not sure about the generators 2017-11-13T14:32:32Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:33:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T14:33:32Z Achylles: I would like to define, say a N function, just for me to remember the natural set numbers using lisp instead of writing down everything on a paper with a pen... 2017-11-13T14:33:59Z Achylles: I do not know if it is possible to study maths with lisp... 2017-11-13T14:34:01Z beach: Achylles: What would that function do? 2017-11-13T14:34:21Z jdz: Wouldn't one of the symbolic maths programs more suited for this? 2017-11-13T14:34:29Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:34:33Z jackdaniel: you may represent it as a symbol, but I think that you confuse a little computing with math 2017-11-13T14:35:14Z jackdaniel: like in: say how vs say what 2017-11-13T14:35:19Z Achylles: the thing is that, I want to learn lisp while studying maths... 2017-11-13T14:35:32Z Achylles: or the other way round... 2017-11-13T14:35:47Z jmercouris: Achylles: I don't think that's a good idea, Lisp is distinctly different from Math 2017-11-13T14:35:52Z pjb: Achylles: do you mean ℕ ? 2017-11-13T14:36:03Z Achylles: yes. 2017-11-13T14:36:16Z pjb: ℕ is a set. If you want to consider it as a function, then it is characterised by its indicator function. 2017-11-13T14:36:35Z pjb: (defun ℕ (x) (and (integerp x) (not (minusp x)))) 2017-11-13T14:36:36Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-13T14:36:51Z beach: Achylles: It is not very clear what it is that you want to do with those sets, so it is hard to give you any precise help. 2017-11-13T14:36:54Z pjb: (ℕ 42) #| --> t |# (ℕ 'foo) #| --> nil |# 2017-11-13T14:38:13Z pjb: (defun ℕ∩ (set) (remove-if-not #'ℕ set)) (ℕ∩ '(42 -2 foo 2.0)) #| --> (42) |# 2017-11-13T14:38:27Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T14:38:30Z beach: Achylles: What pjb is showing you is a representation of such a set as a characteristic function. 2017-11-13T14:39:08Z Achylles: beach, I have tried studying gcd, lcm and factorizing a number using lisp and it worked. 2017-11-13T14:39:33Z beach: Definitely. 2017-11-13T14:39:47Z Achylles: I think, at least some maths themes can be studied with lisp... 2017-11-13T14:39:57Z pjb: Of course. 2017-11-13T14:40:00Z beach: Right again. 2017-11-13T14:41:26Z Achylles: jdz, which programs, for example... 2017-11-13T14:42:07Z jdz: I've heard names mathematica, maxima, macsyma, also probably wolfram alpha. 2017-11-13T14:42:12Z pjb: Achylles: you may also try ACL2. 2017-11-13T14:42:14Z Achylles: Should I give up using lisp for studying maths? What do you think... 2017-11-13T14:42:24Z jackdaniel: maxima is written in lisp 2017-11-13T14:42:29Z jackdaniel: and you still can drop down to repl if you want 2017-11-13T14:42:32Z pjb: ACL2 is a theorem prover based on a subset of CL (and implemented in CL). 2017-11-13T14:42:42Z Achylles: jdz, some of them uses python 2017-11-13T14:42:46Z Achylles: like sage... 2017-11-13T14:42:57Z Achylles: but, I am interested more in lisp 2017-11-13T14:42:57Z pjb: Achylles: definitely use lisp to study maths (and anything else). 2017-11-13T14:43:16Z jdz: Learning everything at once is a sure way to get confused. 2017-11-13T14:43:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:43:29Z Colleen: sjl: Shinmera said at 2017.11.10 11:54:16: I reworked the docs for Harmony and included some actual examples. Hope that helps! https://shirakumo.github.io/harmony/ Still haven't completed the CoreAudio backend or made buffer-sources convenient, though. 2017-11-13T14:43:47Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T14:44:09Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:44:30Z pjb: Achylles: cf. eg. Reasoning about qualitative temporal information with S-words and S-languages -- Irène Durand, Sylviane Schwer in https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/static/proceedings/2008.pdf 2017-11-13T14:45:12Z Achylles: Ok I will have a look at maxima and acl2 2017-11-13T14:45:13Z jdz: I'm pretty sure PAIP also has a chapter on doing symbolic maths. 2017-11-13T14:45:43Z Achylles: is paip a lisp program? 2017-11-13T14:45:59Z pjb: book 2017-11-13T14:46:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T14:46:08Z beach: minion: Please tell Achylles about PAIP. 2017-11-13T14:46:09Z minion: Achylles: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 2017-11-13T14:46:10Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Lisp%20books 2017-11-13T14:46:50Z pjb: https://books.google.fr/books?isbn=0915692414 2017-11-13T14:46:56Z jdz: http://www.norvig.com/paip.html 2017-11-13T14:47:12Z pjb: See also sicp and sicm! 2017-11-13T14:50:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T14:55:01Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T15:12:45Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:13:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:13:38Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:14:12Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:14:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:15:25Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:16:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:16:33Z didi joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:17:19Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:17:33Z didi: When you define a macro, and use it inside your package, do you define it in a separate file, loaded first? 2017-11-13T15:18:51Z jmercouris: didi: Yes, many do 2017-11-13T15:18:55Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:19:06Z jmercouris: didi: I have a file called macro.lisp which gets loaded before all of my other files 2017-11-13T15:20:10Z didi: jmercouris: Thanks. 2017-11-13T15:20:27Z jmercouris: didi: No problem! 2017-11-13T15:20:56Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:21:26Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:21:55Z Shinmera: I don't 2017-11-13T15:22:20Z Shinmera: I define the macro where it is appropriate contextually. Singling macros out as some kind of special thing seems odd. 2017-11-13T15:23:24Z didi: Shinmera: But how do you compile them? If I use a macro before defining it, the compiler barfs. 2017-11-13T15:23:55Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T15:25:25Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:25:36Z jmercouris: Shinmera: You know, I thought so as well at first, but whenever I had a macro that combined two or more functions from discrete files it was hard to think about the placement of said macro 2017-11-13T15:26:08Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Obviously that is to say you are far more experienced than me, but I prefer just loading them before everything else to avoid any ambiguity 2017-11-13T15:26:28Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-13T15:27:12Z Shinmera: didi: You just put it in the file before you use it? 2017-11-13T15:27:15Z Bike: "combined"? 2017-11-13T15:27:17Z pjb: The thing is that the functions used by the macro must be available in the evaluation environment used by the compilation environment to expand the macros. 2017-11-13T15:28:06Z didi: Shinmera: Indeed. But then I start a dance of killing and yanking macros. 2017-11-13T15:28:14Z Bike: didi: the compiler goes through files top to bottom compiling. if it sees a defmacro it will install the macro right then. if it sees a macro form but the macro hasn't been installed, it will probably think it's a function call and problems will happen. so, macros first 2017-11-13T15:28:25Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:28:27Z pjb: The file macros.lisp should contain those functions (and not necessarily the macros), so that you may easily load this file in the startup environment, (from which the evaluation environment is initialized). 2017-11-13T15:28:34Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm 2017-11-13T15:28:36Z didi: Bike: Thanks. 2017-11-13T15:28:48Z norserob joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:28:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:29:01Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:29:01Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2017-11-13T15:29:01Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:29:43Z Shinmera: jmercouris: I've literally never seen people place macros into a separate file called "macros.lisp" 2017-11-13T15:30:53Z pjb: find ~/quicklisp -name macro\*.lisp 2017-11-13T15:31:21Z Shinmera: pjb: I don't doubt the existence. I just haven't come across it in my own viewings. 2017-11-13T15:32:38Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T15:34:11Z scymtym: Shinmera: i do that frequently but with the opposite rationale: the file is almost always the final file of the (ASDF) module and provides a layer of syntatic sugar that is independent of the function-based interface of the module 2017-11-13T15:35:20Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:35:54Z pjb: The thing is that if you have function used by macros that also use some of your macros (which further use other functions you define), and furthermore, you define constants that you want to use at read time eg. for case labels, etc, you quickly end up having to put the whole file in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) …). 2017-11-13T15:35:57Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:36:13Z pjb: In this situation, it's simplier to put them in separate files, and loading them in the required order. 2017-11-13T15:38:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:40:02Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:40:20Z Achylles: thx to all for the help and orientation... 2017-11-13T15:40:41Z Achylles: Probably, maxima is what I as looking for... 2017-11-13T15:40:44Z Bike: having separate files for compile time stuff would make sense if we commonly used actual phasing 2017-11-13T15:42:31Z pjb: Achylles: depends on the kind of maths you want to do. Maxima is not symbolic enough for me… 2017-11-13T15:42:44Z jmercouris: Shinmera: When I first asked about this question several weeks ago, perhaps months now, the response I got was, "sure, I put them in separate file" from a few people 2017-11-13T15:43:30Z jmercouris: Bike: I had reversed the order in my head, I meant to say that two or more discrete forms within two different files depend on the same macro 2017-11-13T15:43:32Z Achylles: pjb, ok. Any advice about a symbolic enough for you? 2017-11-13T15:43:35Z Shinmera: jmercouris: :shrug: I can only report on what I know. 2017-11-13T15:44:32Z pjb: Achylles: I'd have more fun with ACL2 I guess. (if only I had the time to do so). 2017-11-13T15:44:52Z pjb: Or I'd make my own euclidian geometry mathematician in lisp… 2017-11-13T15:45:38Z Achylles: pjb, apt install acl2? 2017-11-13T15:46:06Z jmercouris: didi pjb: Here's what exists on my computer for people using macros https://gist.github.com/9e92ddaf1777ac00cc9af7af02fbbc92 2017-11-13T15:46:07Z pjb: I guess so. 2017-11-13T15:47:02Z didi: jmercouris: Thanks. 2017-11-13T15:47:07Z pjb: didi: jmercouris: not much indeed. In the usual case it's not needed. 2017-11-13T15:47:57Z jmercouris: pjb: I also have very few things installed 2017-11-13T15:48:54Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-13T15:49:26Z jmercouris: pjb: .quicklisp/quicklisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software: contains 14 lines 2017-11-13T15:49:51Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:49:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:50:12Z Achylles: pjb, installing acl2 here to have a try... 2017-11-13T15:50:14Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:50:16Z Achylles: :) 2017-11-13T15:51:09Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:53:05Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:53:18Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:54:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:55:11Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:56:30Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-13T15:59:31Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:01:05Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T16:05:30Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T16:05:45Z hyp3rbor3a joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:06:16Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:07:00Z _rumbler31: so when a defun form is read, any macros that it uses must be already defined? 2017-11-13T16:07:21Z _rumbler31: and is the same true of functions? 2017-11-13T16:07:38Z hyp3rbor3a quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-13T16:07:49Z Shinmera: No 2017-11-13T16:08:04Z Shinmera: To both 2017-11-13T16:08:26Z _rumbler31: this might sound stupid, but I know what happens in c, but I've heard a lot about *correct* build order in lisp and haven't yet encountered situations where I had to be specific 2017-11-13T16:08:33Z Shinmera: When a form is /compiled/ that contains macro forms, then those macros must already be defined. Naturally. 2017-11-13T16:08:54Z Shinmera: When a form is /evaluated/ that contains function calls, then those functions must already be defined. Naturally. 2017-11-13T16:08:57Z _rumbler31: I see what you mean 2017-11-13T16:09:35Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:09:46Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:10:08Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:10:22Z _rumbler31: although I still don't think I understand *what* happens *when*, for example. I have a file with a function that uses a macro. When I (load the file, does it matter which is placed first in the file? Same question for different files 2017-11-13T16:11:05Z Shinmera: When a file is loaded, each form in the file is compiled and loaded one by one. 2017-11-13T16:11:16Z Shinmera: So yes, the macro must be defined before the function. 2017-11-13T16:11:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:12:13Z Shinmera: Or rather, the macro must be defined before its usages, or the compiler will compile the forms with standard evaluation rules in place, meaning it will probably be interpreted as a function call. 2017-11-13T16:13:59Z sjl: Has anyone written a beginners guide to the various "times" in CL? e.g. read vs compile vs load vs execute 2017-11-13T16:14:21Z sjl: It would be helpful to point folks to. 2017-11-13T16:14:33Z Shinmera: I plan to write about that in my book, but that doesn't exist yet. 2017-11-13T16:14:36Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:15:10Z sjl: "Why do I need an eval-when around this function?" -> "Because macro X later in the file needs it during macroexpansion, but normally it wouldn't be evaluated til later" 2017-11-13T16:16:30Z Shinmera: I feel like a lot of people get confused because they have preconceptions about how things work in other languages, even though the process isn't very complicated in CL. 2017-11-13T16:16:36Z sjl: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html is the only writing I can recall reading about recently 2017-11-13T16:16:48Z Xach: That's the peril of differential learning of new stuff 2017-11-13T16:17:02Z Shinmera: Indeed. 2017-11-13T16:17:49Z sjl: If the process isn't very complicated, it should be easy to clearly document then :) 2017-11-13T16:18:05Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-13T16:18:32Z Shinmera: Simply documenting it, and fighting people's ideas of what's going on to actually help them grasp it, are two different things. 2017-11-13T16:19:26Z sjl: "Hey, this works differently than languages you're used to. Here's a guide that explains how all the pieces work." 2017-11-13T16:19:36Z Shinmera: It ain't that easy 2017-11-13T16:19:46Z sjl: Correct, because we don't have the guide. 2017-11-13T16:19:53Z Shinmera sighs 2017-11-13T16:19:58Z sjl: "the guide" is random fragments of IRC 2017-11-13T16:20:09Z sjl: people explaining bits and pieces of the process 2017-11-13T16:20:57Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:21:42Z sjl: we tell people "no, macros don't need to be available at read time" and then a week later they wonder why their reader macros aren't working 2017-11-13T16:22:00Z rocx quit (Quit: classes) 2017-11-13T16:22:41Z Bike: fare's is the only one i remember, not counting the clhs 2017-11-13T16:22:59Z Bike: normally i'd say the clhs is fine, except that the compile file handling has that ridiculous table 2017-11-13T16:23:26Z Shinmera: fare's more for people that are curious about details than for people that just need to grok the fundamentals. 2017-11-13T16:26:02Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-11-13T16:27:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:27:56Z Xach: sjl: in K&R's C book, they say "this works differently from pascal and fortran like so" 2017-11-13T16:28:09Z Xach: sjl: amusing to read even in the 90s and not getting any more timely 2017-11-13T16:28:16Z sjl: heh 2017-11-13T16:30:19Z Xach: but, into voids like these can spring terrible "tutorials", like erann gat's package guide 2017-11-13T16:30:26Z Xach: so a good guide would be good, i think 2017-11-13T16:31:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T16:32:12Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:32:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:34:44Z dim: Xach: when you have time, could you have a look at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/667 ; it might be a QL/buildapp bug there (sorry for reposting, didn't use a memo, and not sure you've seen it) 2017-11-13T16:37:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:37:08Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T16:38:13Z XachX: Ok 2017-11-13T16:38:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:38:34Z didi` joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:38:58Z didi quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-11-13T16:39:01Z didi` is now known as didi 2017-11-13T16:39:21Z _rumbler31 quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-13T16:42:44Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:44:14Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:45:33Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:48:52Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:48:53Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:49:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-13T16:50:20Z jollygood2 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:51:32Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:54:55Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:55:56Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T16:58:59Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T17:02:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:03:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T17:04:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:04:29Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-11-13T17:10:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:10:45Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:12:01Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T17:12:31Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:14:05Z didi: To change/add alist key/values I use (union (list cons) alist :key 'car :test my-key-test). Is there a common name for this form or a form that doesn't use (list cons)? 2017-11-13T17:15:00Z Bike: you should just put new conses in front, probably. assoc has to go left to right. 2017-11-13T17:15:34Z Bike: do you have to do it non destructively? 2017-11-13T17:16:19Z didi: Bike: Hum. I think "yes", but what if I didn't? alexandria's (setf (assoc ...))? 2017-11-13T17:16:19Z Josh_2: should I still use the naming convention of adding a p to the end of my fun name if it returns a list or nil? 2017-11-13T17:16:31Z Josh_2: It will be used like a predicate 2017-11-13T17:17:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:19:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T17:21:45Z Bike: didi: setf assoc-value in alexandria is what i was thinking of, yeah. 2017-11-13T17:22:03Z Bike: Josh_2: seems fine. the standard has digit-char-p which returns a useful value and not just a boolean 2017-11-13T17:22:18Z didi: Bike: Thank you. 2017-11-13T17:22:40Z sjl: digit-char-p is the function I always forget exists, specifically because its name ends in -p 2017-11-13T17:22:48Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:23:03Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:23:25Z epony joined #lisp 2017-11-13T17:24:32Z Bike: if it returns a list but you don't use that fact it's certainly fine 2017-11-13T17:25:26Z Josh_2: Thanks Bike 2017-11-13T17:26:06Z sjl: make sure the list that it returns is never nil 2017-11-13T17:26:57Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T17:28:49Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(happy to if you prefer) 2017-11-13T18:00:34Z didi: pjb: Thanks. I don't think comfortable mutating this particular data structure tho. Also, it will later be used to write a particular format to disc and the function don't keep track of already written key to disc, so there will be duplicates. 2017-11-13T18:00:39Z Xach: dim: proxy svp 2017-11-13T18:00:47Z didi: s/think/feel 2017-11-13T18:01:01Z dra joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:01:19Z pjb: didi: acons and push doesn't mutate anything! 2017-11-13T18:01:22Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2017-11-13T18:01:25Z scymtym: Xach: i think that is likely, looking at the rest of the output. for example, the initial git clone operations seem interleaved as well. maybe the reporter has something in their environment that enables make parallelization by default 2017-11-13T18:01:40Z didi: pjb: True. 2017-11-13T18:03:55Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T18:05:13Z Xach: dim: scymtym is more observant than i! 2017-11-13T18:05:17Z flak joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:06:23Z dra quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-13T18:06:27Z dim: thanks scymtym and Xach, answering to that effect then 2017-11-13T18:06:53Z dim: I totally missed that :/ 2017-11-13T18:07:23Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:08:01Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:10:47Z shka: good evening 2017-11-13T18:12:18Z Josh_2: hey slime just had a heart attack 2017-11-13T18:17:51Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:19:57Z Josh_2: I kept getting an error about a thread lockout 2017-11-13T18:20:08Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:20:37Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:22:50Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:22:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:24:36Z asarch quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-13T18:27:27Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:27:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:33:37Z Shinmera: sjl: CoreAudio drain now finally works. 2017-11-13T18:33:45Z sjl: nice 2017-11-13T18:33:56Z Shinmera: Harmony now has native backends for all three major OSs 2017-11-13T18:34:09Z Shinmera: Unsurprisingly, OS X and Windows were the worst to work with. 2017-11-13T18:34:50Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:35:14Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:36:55Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T18:37:00Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-11-13T18:38:26Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:38:47Z pjb: Impedence mismatches… 2017-11-13T18:39:48Z Shinmera: More like undocumented mess for one, and overly involved and complicated for the other. 2017-11-13T18:39:51Z gendl quit 2017-11-13T18:40:01Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:40:29Z gendl joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:41:41Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:42:15Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:44:57Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:45:05Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:45:06Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-13T18:45:48Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:46:26Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:47:41Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:48:32Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T18:48:32Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:49:40Z georgiy joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:49:50Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:50:03Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:50:16Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2017-11-13T18:53:58Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:53:59Z Fare: Hi 2017-11-13T18:54:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:54:19Z Fare: What's the best library to read and write binary data off/on a byte stream? 2017-11-13T18:54:32Z Shinmera: fast-io is pretty nice. 2017-11-13T18:55:35Z Shinmera: It doesn't do stuff like letting you declare container layouts, but it gives you a fast, low-level mechanism to read binary data. 2017-11-13T18:55:43Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T18:55:57Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T18:56:34Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:56:46Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:56:56Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T18:58:00Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T18:58:36Z Shinmera: Speaking of that, do we have a byte-wise UTF8 decoder? Babel requires you to read the entire string into a byte buffer first. 2017-11-13T18:59:00Z Shinmera: Being able to decode directly to a string would be nice. 2017-11-13T19:01:21Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T19:01:59Z Bike: how would you do that efficiently? read into a shorter byte buffer, and if you end halfway through a codepoint get the next buffer a bit earlier? 2017-11-13T19:02:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T19:02:46Z Shinmera: It would have to track bytes until it has a complete codepoint, yeah. 2017-11-13T19:03:13Z easye: Sound like a job for continuations... 2017-11-13T19:03:28Z eudoxia: mite b cool to try and port this to fast CL: http://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/10/06/ 2017-11-13T19:03:38Z Shinmera: Sounds like a job you can do perfectly fine without continuations to me 2017-11-13T19:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T19:04:44Z easye: The branchless decoder is neat, I must admint. 2017-11-13T19:04:49Z easye: s/admint/admit/ 2017-11-13T19:05:11Z Fare: yeah, I remember that very utf8 issue. Ugh. 2017-11-13T19:05:44Z Fare: I'm happy to be using Gerbil now, with both continuations and lightweight threads. 2017-11-13T19:05:51Z vutral: p 2017-11-13T19:07:47Z Fare: I was trying to do incremental parsing of data from hundreds / thousands of clients using utf8 character strings in CL... not as nice as I wanted. 2017-11-13T19:10:14Z Fare: I had retrofitted lightweight threads on top of CL using arnesi's call/cc implementation... but if the I/O primitives of the platform are supposed to block a heavy-weight thread, you lose. 2017-11-13T19:11:02Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-11-13T19:13:10Z Fare: and doing utf8 input could block waiting for the next packet, so had to be specifically avoided. 2017-11-13T19:13:59Z didi: What is a lightweight thread? 2017-11-13T19:14:12Z Fare: a thread implemented on top of call/cc 2017-11-13T19:14:26Z Fare: so it carries very little extra state. 2017-11-13T19:14:34Z didi: Is it preemptive? Is there a timer? 2017-11-13T19:14:40Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T19:15:47Z Fare: they can be preemptive, but only with compiler support 2017-11-13T19:16:07Z didi: The running thread has to explicitly release control? 2017-11-13T19:16:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T19:17:13Z phoe: I guess so, they need to return their continuation after all if they're call/cc-based 2017-11-13T19:17:30Z didi: I see. 2017-11-13T19:18:19Z shka: is there anything like cl-cuda but for opencl instead? 2017-11-13T19:18:53Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T19:21:11Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly no, but you can use OpenGL's compute shaders if what you really want is a portable GPU compute engine. 2017-11-13T19:21:25Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-11-13T19:21:37Z shka: i see, thank you 2017-11-13T19:24:26Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-11-13T19:26:55Z Ober joined #lisp 2017-11-13T19:27:59Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 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How should I proceed? 2017-11-13T22:07:49Z Shinmera: When you try to indent, does the minibuffer tell you anything? 2017-11-13T22:08:04Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:08:50Z phoe: (define-package package &rest clauses) 2017-11-13T22:08:54Z Shinmera: Also, check that you have slime-indentation in your setup. 2017-11-13T22:09:06Z Guest65632 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:09:14Z phoe: one second 2017-11-13T22:09:38Z phoe: I use spacemacs. Hm. 2017-11-13T22:09:43Z phoe: There's no explicit slime-indentation anywhere. 2017-11-13T22:09:47Z phoe: Let me look in spacemacs. 2017-11-13T22:09:50Z Shinmera: In your slime-setup 2017-11-13T22:09:57Z Shinmera: It's a slime contrib 2017-11-13T22:10:45Z phoe: ELISP> slime-contribs 2017-11-13T22:10:45Z phoe: (slime-company slime-fancy slime-indentation slime-sbcl-exts slime-scratch) 2017-11-13T22:11:09Z phoe: I think I have it then 2017-11-13T22:11:45Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:11:54Z phoe: ooh 2017-11-13T22:12:00Z phoe: a manual slime-update-indentation fixed this 2017-11-13T22:12:03Z Shinmera: The indentation works as expected for me 2017-11-13T22:12:28Z Shinmera: Without having to update anything 2017-11-13T22:13:47Z phoe: weird 2017-11-13T22:13:56Z phoe: slime does not autoupdate indentation then 2017-11-13T22:14:16Z Shinmera: Well it sure does for me 2017-11-13T22:16:31Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:19:22Z georgiy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:20:13Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:22:27Z pseudonymous: Have anyone used ningle and had issues reloading (slime-compile-and-load-file) where requirements functions don't seem to ever get redefined ? 2017-11-13T22:23:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z happy_gnu[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z akr joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z dahs81[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z astronavt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z Guest34211 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z dirb joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:33Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:34Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:34Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:40Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:40Z trigt[m] joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:23:41Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:26:12Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:30:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:30:30Z Ven is now known as Guest78171 2017-11-13T22:31:55Z WorldControl quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-11-13T22:32:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:35:14Z bkst_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-13T22:35:32Z bkst joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:35:56Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-11-13T22:38:36Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-13T22:39:22Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:40:31Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:41:52Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:42:13Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-13T22:44:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:44:52Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:46:06Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:47:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:50:09Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:52:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:54:52Z georgiy joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:56:41Z Guest78171 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T22:56:41Z moei joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:56:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T22:57:48Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2017-11-13T22:58:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T22:58:30Z Shinmera: Good night! 2017-11-13T22:59:35Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T23:19:24Z phoe: but local-time has microsecond precision under sbcl 2017-11-13T23:20:12Z georgiy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:20:24Z phoe: and ccl, it seems 2017-11-13T23:21:24Z vzerda joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:21:39Z pseudonymous quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:21:40Z pjb: (list (get-universal-time) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time:GET-REAL-TIME)) #| --> (3719604099 3.719604098932612D+9) |# 2017-11-13T23:23:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:26:18Z sjl: Shinmera: nice! 2017-11-13T23:26:30Z sjl: Shinmera: I'll poke at it soon. Got a party tonight and stream tomorrow. 2017-11-13T23:28:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:29:08Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:29:56Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:30:11Z BigSafari joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:31:02Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:31:40Z BigSafari: Looking for a way to compare items of two lists with each other and do a AND on all the comparison results. 2017-11-13T23:33:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:34:37Z jmercouris: BigSafari: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/loop.html one of the first examples shows going through two lists 2017-11-13T23:34:57Z jmercouris: BigSafari: Starts with the line: "Iterate through two lists in parallel" 2017-11-13T23:35:45Z BigSafari: ah, thx 2017-11-13T23:37:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:38:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:38:24Z BigSafari: and if i collect a boolean value, how should i apply "and" to reduct it to one value? 2017-11-13T23:40:53Z pjb: BigSafari: (every (function equal) list-1 list-2) 2017-11-13T23:41:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:41:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:42:26Z BigSafari quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-13T23:43:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:44:00Z johs joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:45:07Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:46:59Z jmercouris: minion: memo for BigSafari: Not sure what you mean about applying "and" to reduce it to one value, if you mean one boolean value, you can use the (and) function (and value1 value2) 2017-11-13T23:46:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell BigSafari when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-11-13T23:47:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-13T23:47:39Z jmercouris: Who programmed the minion? 2017-11-13T23:47:55Z pjb: minion: who programmed you? 2017-11-13T23:47:56Z minion: superman 2017-11-13T23:48:05Z pjb: minion: where are your sources? 2017-11-13T23:48:06Z minion: behind you! 2017-11-13T23:48:08Z jmercouris: Is it possible to change he/she/it to just say "they" speak, it feels like it would be far simpler 2017-11-13T23:48:31Z jmercouris: Lol, very helpful responses from the minion 2017-11-13T23:48:51Z jmercouris: Goodnight everyone 2017-11-13T23:50:12Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb) 2017-11-13T23:51:48Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-11-13T23:52:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:53:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:59:22Z georgiy joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:00:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:03:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:04:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T00:05:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:11:31Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:11:56Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T00:12:17Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T00:15:16Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:15:23Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:19:20Z emacsoma` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T00:21:14Z dra joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:29:27Z georgiy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-14T00:32:19Z dra: Hi. With slime-cl-indent in contribs the exports in defpackage (:export :foo :bar :baz) aren't indented correctly for me, "correctly" meaning exported symbols are aligned. Is this a known problem? 2017-11-14T00:32:27Z lisp_guest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T00:36:12Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:36:31Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-14T00:44:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:46:41Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T00:55:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:59:21Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-14T00:59:29Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T00:59:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:01:10Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-14T01:01:43Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:06:19Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-14T01:07:57Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:11:41Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:15:52Z dra_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T01:17:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:19:27Z dra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:22:05Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:23:28Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2017-11-14T01:25:06Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T01:27:39Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-14T01:36:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-14T01:46:56Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T01:48:04Z bmansurov joined #lisp 2017-11-14T01:48:16Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-11-14T01:48:39Z bmansurov left #lisp 2017-11-14T01:49:16Z yakuza joined #lisp 2017-11-14T01:52:32Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:53:03Z yakuza: hi 2017-11-14T01:57:52Z vzerda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T01:58:26Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T02:02:43Z pjb: hi 2017-11-14T02:22:04Z python476 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:22:07Z python476: hello 2017-11-14T02:22:42Z python476: i'm reading art of the mop, it's pretty nice to peel off CLOS metalevel, Im curious if you knew similar books (lisp or not) 2017-11-14T02:25:42Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T02:26:14Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:26:44Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:26:46Z yakuza: I'd venture say Lisp in Small Pieces, Let Over Lambda, SICP, Anatomy of Lisp, depending on what sort of metalevel you are interested in (then there's lambda calc and such mathematical theories) 2017-11-14T02:27:19Z Bike: none of those are so much about designing a modifiable system in quite the same way, i don't think 2017-11-14T02:27:20Z python476: I've some of them, they don't have the same metameta feel (if that makes sense) 2017-11-14T02:27:38Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:27:41Z yakuza: Oh I get it 2017-11-14T02:28:22Z python476: I'm curious about reading Cantwell 3lisp (have been for years) for the reflection focus 2017-11-14T02:28:36Z Bike: that thing is.... extremely thick 2017-11-14T02:28:42Z Bike: i couldn't stand it. best of luck 2017-11-14T02:28:54Z python476: in its wording or just the pagecount ? 2017-11-14T02:29:30Z python476: i skimmed through the first pages long ago, I didnt drown but I remember thinking that this is not the typical computing book 2017-11-14T02:30:27Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T02:30:57Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T02:31:04Z Bike: mostly the wording 2017-11-14T02:31:13Z Bike: it's definitely non typical. it seemed almost wholly semantic 2017-11-14T02:31:22Z Bike: like i'm readin whitehead or some shit 2017-11-14T02:31:23Z python476: yeah, well summarized 2017-11-14T02:31:48Z python476: an exercise in pure thinking in a way 2017-11-14T02:32:20Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:32:34Z python476: the more I read the more I get away from the machine, so now Im tempted by very abstract, even things that I would consider pure snob fluff years ago 2017-11-14T02:32:48Z Bike: humility is a virtue. 2017-11-14T02:33:05Z z3t0 quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-14T02:33:08Z python476: what do you mean 2017-11-14T02:33:16Z python476: it's not good to abstract too much ? 2017-11-14T02:33:34Z Bike: no, just saying it's good you gave up on writing things off as snobbery. 2017-11-14T02:33:54Z space_otter joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:34:05Z python476: I guess age shifts your perspective 2017-11-14T02:34:25Z python476: one of the reason I don't like ageism, time teaches 2017-11-14T02:34:39Z python476: or "youngism" I should say 2017-11-14T02:39:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T02:41:26Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:42:20Z ramus_ is now known as ramus 2017-11-14T02:42:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:45:21Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T02:47:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:47:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T02:48:32Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:49:21Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:49:29Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:50:16Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T02:50:49Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:51:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T02:52:14Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T02:52:26Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:52:36Z z3t0 quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-14T02:53:25Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T02:56:28Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:00:48Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:01:57Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-11-14T03:02:35Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:07:01Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:09:27Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:11:56Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-14T03:12:35Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:26:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:27:57Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:28:45Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:29:24Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-11-14T03:30:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:31:25Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-14T03:32:25Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:32:27Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:33:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-14T03:35:11Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:35:41Z yakuza quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:36:13Z vutral: good morning beach 2017-11-14T03:40:14Z shenghi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T03:40:37Z shenghi joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:43:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T03:45:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:50:17Z truename quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:53:43Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T03:56:06Z HazWard left #lisp 2017-11-14T04:06:22Z gabiruh_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:06:30Z truename joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:08:04Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:08:06Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:08:12Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2017-11-14T04:08:12Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:11:43Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-14T04:12:30Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T04:16:52Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T04:17:37Z christoph_debian quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:20:50Z christoph_debian joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:27:03Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:28:41Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T04:30:48Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:30:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:30:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:33:54Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:35:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:41:49Z dmiles: what is the fastest planner that is written in comonlisp ? 2017-11-14T04:43:27Z pillton: planner? 2017-11-14T04:46:32Z dmiles: planner = fastdownward 2017-11-14T04:46:39Z dmiles: or shop2 2017-11-14T04:47:48Z dmiles: that run on PDDL files 2017-11-14T04:48:01Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:48:49Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:49:01Z beach: Amazing how the three answers to a question immediately suggest three more questions. "fastdownward"? "shop2"? "PDDL"? 2017-11-14T04:49:30Z dmiles: hehe 2017-11-14T04:50:17Z dmiles: i could have started with: is there a faster planner in lisp than https://github.com/calyau/shop2 ? 2017-11-14T04:50:41Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:52:34Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:53:52Z dmiles: actually since its still maintained it might be taking on all the discoveries made each year 2017-11-14T04:54:42Z dmiles: when one planner author finds out the secret of ohters in yearly compititions everyone else i think incorperates it 2017-11-14T04:56:15Z edgar-rft: fourth question: what is meant with "fast"? I assume tat a slow planner can be faster on a simple plan than a fast planner on a complex plan? 2017-11-14T04:56:46Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:57:47Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-14T04:58:59Z dmiles: fast means = consumes complex plans (tetris domains) like sugar water 2017-11-14T04:59:34Z dmiles: super fast would mean able ot be used to play chess :P 2017-11-14T05:00:46Z edgar-rft: even the slowest planner is capable to play chess if there's enough time 2017-11-14T05:01:57Z dmiles: ah so i think i want the least slowest planner for chess in common lisp 2017-11-14T05:02:07Z dmiles: (that is not chess specific of course) 2017-11-14T05:03:14Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:03:55Z aeth: I was considering making a chess game as a Lisp game but I think that that is the road of spending the next 10 years on chess AI instead of a game. 2017-11-14T05:05:56Z Zhivago: Just have the AI be a player. 2017-11-14T05:06:12Z aeth: Well, maybe the game can be to provide an API for people to write their own AIs. 2017-11-14T05:06:20Z aeth: "Here's a CL chess engine, now bring your own chess AI." 2017-11-14T05:06:32Z aeth: I doubt there's a shortage of people interested in AI 2017-11-14T05:09:29Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:09:41Z dmiles: well it might be better if you made an API to more than just Chess.. perhaps any game such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratego 2017-11-14T05:10:40Z dmiles: oops not stratego! i meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudal_(game) 2017-11-14T05:11:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T05:11:10Z dmiles: feudal was like 3d chess when i was a kid 2017-11-14T05:12:56Z aeth: Well, there was at least one game that was a bunch of board games. I remember playing one of these a long time ago. I didn't realize they made so many of them, though, so I don't know which one. (link to gamefaqs because they have so many games in their database) https://www.gamefaqs.com/search?game=hoyle+board+games 2017-11-14T05:13:22Z aeth: probably the one from 2001 or 2002 2017-11-14T05:14:32Z aeth: (Hoyle Board Games looks like one of those games that was/is rereleased almost every year.) 2017-11-14T05:26:53Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:28:33Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-14T05:28:59Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:29:20Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:29:29Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:31:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T05:31:32Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T05:40:15Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T05:43:49Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T05:47:00Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:48:12Z Vagabond joined #lisp 2017-11-14T05:54:39Z yangby joined #lisp 2017-11-14T06:01:05Z Vagabond quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-14T06:04:56Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-11-14T06:09:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T06:09:05Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Turns out there's a well-defined difference between chess engine and chess GUI through the two protocols (XBoard/WinBoard and UCI) so it actually isn't a monumental undertaking to make a chess GUI. 2017-11-14T07:09:19Z aeth: of course, like KDE/Qt vs. GNOME/Gtk or RSS vs Atom or Emacs vs vim etc, there are two warring standards, because why not? 2017-11-14T07:11:11Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T07:12:23Z aeth: Or, alternatively "maybe the game can provide an API" was something people thought of in 2000 (UCI) and 1994 (xboard) 2017-11-14T07:13:03Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-14T07:14:08Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-14T07:18:35Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T07:19:03Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-14T07:22:52Z kjak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T07:23:00Z kjak joined #lisp 2017-11-14T07:23:13Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T07:28:45Z BigSafari quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I can take a UCI chess engine, e.g. stockfish (no idea if it's good, it's just UCI and in Fedora's repos), like this: (with-output-to-string (out) (with-input-from-string (in "uci") (uiop/run-program:run-program "stockfish" :output out :input in) out)) 2017-11-14T08:00:58Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:01:07Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T08:01:09Z aeth: That will give it the command uci (which starts the program) and it'll speak a bunch of things to the string out 2017-11-14T08:02:23Z aeth: but it looks like it's a line oriented-protocol, i.e. I should be parsing each line into its own string, to then handle 2017-11-14T08:03:41Z dec0n_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:04:43Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:04:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:05:38Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:05:53Z aeth: What it looks like I should be doing instead with uiop's run-program is having a loop where I send the program one or more lines of input through in and then read one line of output at a time through out. 2017-11-14T08:06:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T08:06:41Z aeth: (Actually, sending it things will be based on clicks and not automatic, but that's a long way away.) 2017-11-14T08:07:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:07:27Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T08:07:34Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-14T08:09:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T08:09:30Z aeth: If it was a file with one-line commands instead of output from an external program it would be something like this: (with-open-file (foo #P"~/foo.foobar") (some-loop-thing (do-something-with-each-line (read-line foo)))) 2017-11-14T08:10:07Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T08:10:09Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T08:11:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:11:48Z klltkr joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:12:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-14T08:13:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-14T08:19:14Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Just read them. 2017-11-14T12:20:07Z malice: Well, I guess I'll use declaim. Thank you. 2017-11-14T12:22:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:23:52Z _cosmonaut_1 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:25:03Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T12:25:08Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:25:12Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T12:26:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T12:26:47Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:26:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:27:52Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:28:47Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-14T12:33:01Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T12:33:22Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:33:52Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:36:35Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:39:54Z lisp_guest joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:40:19Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-14T12:42:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:42:36Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:43:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:43:22Z __Lorn__ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T12:46:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T12:50:28Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T12:51:53Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Well, in order to be able to differentiate what are subdomains and what aren't, Radiance needs to know about potential "top level domains". So you need to add all the domains to the configuration. 2017-11-14T13:29:59Z Shinmera: I thought I wrote about how to do that somewhere, hold on 2017-11-14T13:30:03Z hjudt: how can i change the configuration? is it possible on the fly? 2017-11-14T13:30:20Z Shinmera: It is. 2017-11-14T13:30:36Z Shinmera: ::look up radiance add-domain 2017-11-14T13:30:37Z Colleen: Function radiance-core:add-domain https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance#FUNCTION%20RADIANCE-CORE%3AADD-DOMAIN 2017-11-14T13:30:49Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-14T13:30:57Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-11-14T13:31:20Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-14T13:32:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-14T13:33:48Z hjudt: i have added "my-machine" with radiance-core:add-domain, but that didn't help. the links generated are still "localhost:8080/project/some-other-page". 2017-11-14T13:34:07Z Shinmera: What is the link you're using in the browser? 2017-11-14T13:34:24Z hjudt: http://my-machine:8080/project/page 2017-11-14T13:34:47Z Shinmera: Hrm, okey, hold on. 2017-11-14T13:34:48Z hjudt: i am not using uri-to-url by the way 2017-11-14T13:35:00Z Shinmera: ... then what are you using? 2017-11-14T13:35:16Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-14T13:35:39Z hjudt: only what i wrote above. ... 2017-11-14T13:35:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T13:36:06Z Shinmera: @href uses uri-to-url 2017-11-14T13:36:13Z hjudt: ok, i thought so 2017-11-14T13:36:27Z hjudt: iirc r-clip docs say so 2017-11-14T13:36:53Z Shinmera: It's possible :) 2017-11-14T13:37:29Z hjudt: the result of add-domain was ("my-machine" "radiance" "localhost" "127.0.0.1" "::1") 2017-11-14T13:38:40Z Shinmera: Yeah, just give me a while, I'm testing stuff. 2017-11-14T13:38:41Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T13:38:57Z hjudt: i will also see if i didn't miss saving the template... 2017-11-14T13:39:08Z hjudt: but it shouldn't matter 2017-11-14T13:39:35Z hjudt: i have removed "localhost" and "radiance" using radiance-core:remove-domain, but it didn't help. 2017-11-14T13:39:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T13:40:07Z Shinmera: Ooohh. It's a bug. 2017-11-14T13:40:09Z Shinmera: I'm a dumbass. 2017-11-14T13:40:12Z Shinmera: Sec 2017-11-14T13:42:25Z Shinmera: Try (setf radiance::*domain-internalizers* (radiance::compile-domain-internalizers)) 2017-11-14T13:42:54Z Shinmera: Fix is out now, so if you (ql:update-dist "shirakumo") you should have the fix to make add/remove-domain work. 2017-11-14T13:43:04Z hjudt: yes, this fixed it 2017-11-14T13:43:08Z Shinmera: Great! 2017-11-14T13:43:24Z hjudt: now what would be a good place to configure this? 2017-11-14T13:43:36Z Shinmera: Add-domain already updates the configuration for you 2017-11-14T13:44:10Z hjudt: ok. would there be any reason to remove e.g. "radiance" which is added by default? 2017-11-14T13:44:24Z hjudt: s/added/set 2017-11-14T13:44:47Z Shinmera: Tiny performance gains in some cases? Keeping things clean? Idk. 2017-11-14T13:45:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T13:45:16Z Shinmera: I can't think of a case where it would actively hurt. 2017-11-14T13:46:39Z hjudt: ok, other question related to this. i could e.g. change the database implementation as described here: https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-tutorial/blob/master/Part%207.md 2017-11-14T13:47:16Z hjudt: where would i do this? in another programming language or setup i could simply edit a configuration file. how would i do this with radiance? 2017-11-14T13:47:41Z Shinmera: It's in the same configuration file as the domains. (uiop:native-namestring (mconfig-pathname :radiance)) 2017-11-14T13:48:18Z Shinmera: You can change the mapping either in there manually or with (mconfig :radiance :interfaces :database) 2017-11-14T13:48:45Z hjudt: ok. and then i would have to restart radiance, as told by the tutorial, right? 2017-11-14T13:48:59Z Shinmera: Yes. Implementations of interfaces generally can't be switched out on the fly. 2017-11-14T13:50:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-14T13:50:08Z hjudt: that's ok. as a newbie, this is not trivial. it is also not written in the documentation as far as i could see, especially the stuff with the mconfig pathname. thanks for your help 2017-11-14T13:50:54Z Shinmera: ::look up radiance 1.11 2017-11-14T13:50:54Z Colleen: 1.11 environment https://github.com/shirakumo/radiance#111-environment 2017-11-14T13:51:06Z hjudt: you did write something about it in the deployment part of your tutorial though... 2017-11-14T13:51:19Z Shinmera: Yes, though it's not very elaborate. 2017-11-14T13:55:14Z Shinmera: I should probably write about it in a bit more length somewhere, but I'm not sure where to stuff it. 2017-11-14T13:55:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T13:56:13Z hjudt: Colleen: thanks. that at least lists some stuff. it is just so weird and strange from anything one can find out there (speaking of non-lispy stuff) that i probably am not used to deal with it this way. to be more explanatory, i have glanced over this stuff (1.11 environment), but at the time i read it i did not know what to do with this kind of information. 2017-11-14T13:56:14Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, grant, time, tell, say, mop, block, award, roll, help, 2017-11-14T13:56:22Z hjudt: ok, colleen is the bot 2017-11-14T13:57:37Z Shinmera: Yeah, it's a reference document, so it's not really great for telling you what to do with it. 2017-11-14T13:57:59Z hjudt: Shinmera: just a suggestion: imho, there is no need to explain every function, but what is missing is "here is the default config. if you want to change anything, you have to..." 2017-11-14T13:58:01Z Shinmera: Should probably talk about it in the tutorial somewhere. 2017-11-14T13:58:06Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:00:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:02:42Z hjudt: maybe at the start of the tutorial mention "This gets you quickly started with radiance on your local machine. If you want to set it up to be accessible from other machines or change the default configuration, follow the instructions at the end of the tutorial...", referencing Page 7 and adding a "Changing configuration" section there? 2017-11-14T14:03:06Z nzambe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T14:03:11Z Shinmera: Maybe even a Pt. 8 with other assorted "need to know" things. 2017-11-14T14:03:27Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:03:49Z hjudt: probably. part 7 has grown very long already. 2017-11-14T14:04:14Z Shinmera: The domains thing in particular is obscured because the bootstrapper already configures that for you 2017-11-14T14:04:31Z Shinmera: So it is, technically, covered in 7, just not in a way you would be able to realise. 2017-11-14T14:04:57Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:05:21Z hjudt: when i started with radiance, i didn't even use r-clip, but used uri-to-url directly and wondered why it didn't work. 2017-11-14T14:05:40Z Shinmera: Sorry! 2017-11-14T14:05:50Z hjudt: so it is important enough to mention it somewhere separately i think 2017-11-14T14:05:56Z Shinmera: Yes, definitely. 2017-11-14T14:06:21Z hjudt: no need to be sorry. i am a tester now ;-) 2017-11-14T14:07:29Z Shinmera: There's a few people using radiance now, from what I've heard, but I haven't gotten much feedback yet, so it is possible there's other corners that aren't working quite right. 2017-11-14T14:08:15Z hjudt: Part 0 would be a good place to mention where to look further for configuration: https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-tutorial/blob/master/Part%200.md 2017-11-14T14:09:09Z hjudt: it is also still rather short, so it won't look too confusing 2017-11-14T14:09:57Z Shinmera: I'll file it on my todo 2017-11-14T14:09:57Z __Lorn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:10:10Z Shinmera: Need to do read some papers now 2017-11-14T14:10:21Z hjudt: sure, thanks 2017-11-14T14:10:40Z test1600_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T14:10:45Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:11:26Z paule32: hello 2017-11-14T14:12:10Z paule32: i have following code: 2017-11-14T14:12:11Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/bVvCEmY0 2017-11-14T14:12:33Z paule32: like you can see, the topic is electronics 2017-11-14T14:13:00Z paule32: is line 46 and forward right? 2017-11-14T14:13:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:13:52Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:13:54Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:14:31Z Josh_2: Idk but instead of (if .. (if .. you could just do (if (zerop (and inp inm)) 2017-11-14T14:14:41Z Josh_2: and you don't drop the ) onto new lines 2017-11-14T14:15:22Z Josh_2: also (if 2017-11-14T14:15:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:16:26Z Josh_2: oops (if ) so I'm not sure if on line 9 you meant to (setq out-state 0) regardless of whether the condition is true or false 2017-11-14T14:16:36Z paule32: hi Josh_2 2017-11-14T14:17:10Z Josh_2: If you want to do multiple things if it is true/false then you need to wrap them in a (progn ..) 2017-11-14T14:18:03Z paule32: can you provide a small example, of a power circle? 2017-11-14T14:18:17Z paule32: with a and-circuit 2017-11-14T14:20:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:22:59Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-14T14:24:35Z Josh_2: https://pastebin.com/frG4arNf 2017-11-14T14:26:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:26:29Z pjb: Josh_2: (defun and-circuit (a b) (logand 1 (logand a b))) 2017-11-14T14:26:39Z Josh_2: That's an even better way 2017-11-14T14:26:51Z pjb: Of course. Just fucking use booleans! (and a b) 2017-11-14T14:26:52Z beach: Josh_2: Your code is badly indented. 2017-11-14T14:27:11Z Josh_2: How so? 2017-11-14T14:27:25Z beach: Josh_2: Indent it with SLIME and you will see. 2017-11-14T14:27:33Z Josh_2: I did indent it with slime 2017-11-14T14:27:51Z beach: Then your pastebin must have screwed up the indentation. 2017-11-14T14:27:53Z Josh_2: I wrote the function straight into repl 2017-11-14T14:28:07Z beach: And then you removed the prompt? 2017-11-14T14:28:12Z beach: ... before pasting? 2017-11-14T14:28:29Z Josh_2: Nope 2017-11-14T14:28:34Z Josh_2: I see the problem 2017-11-14T14:28:55Z Guest84675 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T14:29:27Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-14T14:30:38Z beach: Josh_2: Also, you need to know that many attempts have been made to help paule32, and he hasn't followed a single piece of advice he has been given. For example, the thing about not preceding closing parentheses with whitespace has been given a very large number of times. I am telling you this, because you are very likely wasting your time trying to be helpful in this case. 2017-11-14T14:31:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:31:38Z paule32: and how can i code a power circle with 2 and's ? 2017-11-14T14:32:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-14T14:32:04Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:32:40Z beach: It has been explained to him over and over that it is highly impolite to submit code for others to read if it does not follow widely agreed-upon conventions, and these conventions have been explained many many times. Despite this fact, paule32 continues this very impolite behavior, while still demanding help. 2017-11-14T14:33:45Z Josh_2: I feel just a little sick reading the code 2017-11-14T14:34:14Z beach: Yes, and getting such feelings across seems impossible. 2017-11-14T14:34:53Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:34:57Z Josh_2: beach: I'll just shh myself 2017-11-14T14:35:35Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T14:35:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:36:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:40:26Z okflo joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:40:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:41:10Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:41:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:42:30Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:42:32Z pjb: Josh_2: power circles are CIRCLES! They cannot be represented by a single integer, and they cannot be coded with two AND or any number of IF! 2017-11-14T14:43:04Z pjb: Josh_2: you need a more complex representation. For a power cicle you'd need at least a point (two coordinates) and a radius (one coordinate). So you need a structure or a vector with 3 slots. 2017-11-14T14:43:45Z pjb: Furthermore your circuit will be in a given state, so you will need an angle at a given time. 2017-11-14T14:44:13Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-14T14:45:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:45:31Z pjb: And even more to represent the phasors. 2017-11-14T14:45:42Z Josh_2: Well that causes a few problems then 2017-11-14T14:45:44Z pjb: Sorry, s/Josh_2/paule32/ 2017-11-14T14:45:49Z pjb: paule32: ^ 2017-11-14T14:45:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:48:10Z paule32: how can i code such slots? for the simple power source + and - , and electrical metal leader 2017-11-14T14:48:58Z pjb: Well, you would have to learn lisp. Lisp provides various data types that you can use to code such slots. 2017-11-14T14:51:51Z Bike: what is a power circle? 2017-11-14T14:52:12Z paule32: i mean a simple power source 2017-11-14T14:52:23Z paule32: with the two poles + and - 2017-11-14T14:53:10Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-14T14:53:54Z pjb: Bike: a device to help computing stuff about power lines. 2017-11-14T14:54:25Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:54:52Z pjb: paule32: a power source doesn't simply have two poles. It provides tension intensity, it has an electro-motrice force, etc. 2017-11-14T14:56:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T14:57:04Z beach: Bike: And "tension" is the correct term for what Americans incorrectly call "voltage", in case you wonder. 2017-11-14T14:57:05Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T14:57:15Z Bike: no, i know that one 2017-11-14T14:57:19Z beach: Good. 2017-11-14T14:58:00Z beach: "amperage" should be "current", "mileage" should be "distance", "wattage" should be "power", etc. 2017-11-14T14:58:21Z Bike: voltage is the only one i actually got in my EE classes 2017-11-14T14:58:54Z beach: "mileage" is of course sometimes "fuel efficiency". 2017-11-14T14:59:00Z Bike: yeah i was going to say. 2017-11-14T14:59:19Z Bike: anyway, so this power circle thing is like, phasors? i'm just asking out of curiosity, all teh stuff i learned was microelectronics 2017-11-14T14:59:44Z Bike: i only know a bit of transmission line stuff from biology 2017-11-14T14:59:44Z beach: But Americans usually say "how tall are your?" rather than "what is your footage and inchage?". 2017-11-14T14:59:58Z Bike: in europe, they say "metrage" 2017-11-14T15:00:02Z pjb: Bike: well, I don't reallay know anything about it, I just googled power circle five minutes ago… 2017-11-14T15:00:04Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T15:00:19Z Bike: i see. i found some ieee papers from the 50s but none of them were introductory. 2017-11-14T15:00:22Z beach: Bike: Unfortunately, in France they use "metrage" for movie films. 2017-11-14T15:00:30Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:00:41Z pjb: yes, because movie films are measured by length. 2017-11-14T15:01:09Z beach: pjb: Doesn't give then an excuse to use a particular unit, rather than just "film length". 2017-11-14T15:01:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:01:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T15:01:47Z pjb: "métrage" is the generic term for any kind length, not only firms. 2017-11-14T15:02:00Z beach: *sigh* 2017-11-14T15:02:01Z pjb: It's also the action to measure. 2017-11-14T15:02:10Z beach: That's true. 2017-11-14T15:02:15Z Bike: as far as measurements go i'm just glad they're redefining amps to be physically measurable and kilograms to be something other than "the mass of this one lump of platinum alloy in france" 2017-11-14T15:02:17Z pjb: And short movies are called "Court-métrage". 2017-11-14T15:02:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:03:31Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:04:34Z tumdum_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:05:17Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:06:33Z __Lorn__ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:07:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:11:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T15:12:12Z __Lorn__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-14T15:15:51Z python476 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:17:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:17:05Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:17:35Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T15:17:35Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection 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2017-11-14T16:21:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:22:14Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:22:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:24:08Z rocx quit (Quit: classes) 2017-11-14T16:26:23Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T16:28:05Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:28:23Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:30:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:31:05Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:31:46Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T16:32:31Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:35:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:35:42Z strelox` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T16:38:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:39:00Z Devon: Any idea what GLS is talking about at https://lists.csail.mit.edu/pipermail/seminars/2017-November/012574.html? 2017-11-14T16:42:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:44:17Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:44:50Z yangby quit (Quit: Go out for a walk and buy a drink.) 2017-11-14T16:47:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:47:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-11-14T16:47:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:49:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:50:12Z juki joined #lisp 2017-11-14T16:54:52Z mvorg is now known as margeas 2017-11-14T16:57:51Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-14T16:58:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:00:03Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-14T17:01:12Z juki` joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:01:28Z juki` left #lisp 2017-11-14T17:01:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:02:14Z Josh_2: is there a loop keyword to skip an iteration of a loop? 2017-11-14T17:02:20Z Josh_2: based on a condition 2017-11-14T17:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:03:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:03:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:04:21Z Bike: you can put code in a conditional block 2017-11-14T17:04:29Z Bike: like "unless (test) collect thing" 2017-11-14T17:05:12Z juki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:06:26Z rpg: I think ITERATE has (next) or something like that 2017-11-14T17:06:31Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-11-14T17:06:42Z Josh_2: Can I use :unless condition :unless? 2017-11-14T17:07:31Z rpg: Josh_2: Yes, but be careful! The nesting of conditionals in LOOP is nasty (one of the big reasons for my preference for ITERATE) 2017-11-14T17:09:03Z nika joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:09:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:09:21Z sjl: with iterate you could do (unless foo ...rest of the body here...), or use (when foo (next-iteration)) 2017-11-14T17:09:50Z sjl: (the first one is just the vanilla cl UNLESS) 2017-11-14T17:10:24Z Josh_2: hmm, maybe I should look into iterate then 2017-11-14T17:10:47Z Josh_2: To break out of a loop early I use return right? 2017-11-14T17:12:16Z Fade: you definitely can. 2017-11-14T17:12:47Z Josh_2: if I use the function (return) inside of a :do does that cause the function to return? 2017-11-14T17:12:58Z Josh_2: or the call to (loop.. 2017-11-14T17:13:04Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-14T17:13:17Z Fade: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 2017-11-14T17:13:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:13:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:13:59Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:14:22Z Fade: in fact, Practical Common Lisp is a good source for any fundamental questions. 2017-11-14T17:15:43Z __Lorn__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:15:45Z sysx1000 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:15:57Z Fade: minion, tell Josh_2 about PCL 2017-11-14T17:15:57Z minion: Josh_2: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2017-11-14T17:16:08Z sjl: see also http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aad.htm 2017-11-14T17:16:20Z sjl: > Expansion of the loop macro produces an implicit block named nil unless named is supplied. Thus, return-from (and sometimes return) can be used to return values from loop or to exit loop. 2017-11-14T17:16:36Z sjl: note that there's also a loop clause named return 2017-11-14T17:18:51Z sjl: the "Setting up and Tearing Down" section of PCL that Fade linked covers your options 2017-11-14T17:19:00Z dfhakh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:21:08Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:21:36Z Josh_2: Yes I found my answer thanks 2017-11-14T17:21:39Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:21:44Z Josh_2: Am gonna use (loop-finish) :D 2017-11-14T17:22:38Z jibanes joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:23:10Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-14T17:23:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:25:05Z solene: hello, I don't know much about GUI toolkits. What lib would you recommend me for writing a GUI app in common lisp ? 2017-11-14T17:25:56Z sjl: Josh_2: if it's just a simple test you can do it with LOOP's until 2017-11-14T17:27:36Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:27:58Z mrottenkolber: solene: on what operating system shall the program run? 2017-11-14T17:28:16Z solene: mrottenkolber, linux/freebsd/openbsd mainly 2017-11-14T17:28:44Z solene: I don't need complex widgets too 2017-11-14T17:29:23Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:29:34Z mrottenkolber: solene: does it have to look modern? 2017-11-14T17:29:39Z solene: no 2017-11-14T17:30:16Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:30:22Z mrottenkolber: solene: maybe give mcclim a try https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/ 2017-11-14T17:31:35Z turkja: Damn it sucks that firefox quantum drops the legacy API... i had to write this: https://bitbucket.org/turkja/mitmcheck/src/ 2017-11-14T17:31:37Z solene: mrottenkolber, that seem to fit my need :) 2017-11-14T17:31:46Z turkja: (but otoh it was a pleasure :D ) 2017-11-14T17:32:23Z mrottenkolber: solene: alternatively there are some good Qt bindings for CL, but I don’t know which project specifically I should point to. McCLIM experts hang out in #clim 2017-11-14T17:32:50Z solene: I'm afraid that Qt would be too complicated isn't it ? 2017-11-14T17:33:07Z mrottenkolber: solene: I share that fear of Qt 2017-11-14T17:33:30Z mrottenkolber: but I haven’t done any GUI programming in CL so \o/ 2017-11-14T17:34:55Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:35:31Z emaczen: solene: If you have a Mac I would recommend using CCL's builtin cocoa-bridge 2017-11-14T17:35:55Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:38:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:38:37Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:40:04Z SaganMan: Hello peeps 2017-11-14T17:40:33Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T17:43:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:48:26Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:50:02Z sjl: qtools makes using Qt from Lisp less painful, but unfortunately it's built on an older version of Qt that's beginning to bitrot 2017-11-14T17:51:16Z k-stz joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:51:25Z sjl: There's also Lispworks' thing if you've got cash to burn for a license. 2017-11-14T17:53:16Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:53:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T17:54:28Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-14T17:58:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:59:11Z Josh_2: sjl: it is a simple test, but I have to do something and then break out of the loop so I have used (progn some-stuff (loop-finish)) 2017-11-14T18:00:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:01:13Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:01:38Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T18:02:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T18:03:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:04:00Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:04:56Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:05:12Z Josh_2: So i've ported two algorithms from C like languages and they don't look particularly nice, they are just the same procedural code but in CL, am I going to be murdered for doing that? I'm not really sure how to do it any other way 2017-11-14T18:05:43Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-14T18:07:42Z Bike: why would anyone murder you for that? that would be a pretty pathetic reason to break the law 2017-11-14T18:08:11Z Bike: anyway, you can do a straight port like that but it's possible there's a "lispier" way to do it 2017-11-14T18:08:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:08:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T18:09:25Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-14T18:09:55Z Josh_2: I think I may spend tomorrow trying to make my ports lispier, I'm sure with lots of study I'll be able to understand the algorithms enough to make them look nicer 2017-11-14T18:10:06Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T18:10:28Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:10:35Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T18:12:37Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:14:41Z pjb: Josh_2: lispier doesn't necessarily make the algorithm better or the implementation faster. 2017-11-14T18:15:02Z pjb: Josh_2: you can keep the ugly algorithm, if it's working good or fast, and just wrap it in a lispy API. 2017-11-14T18:15:14Z Josh_2: Alright :) 2017-11-14T18:16:26Z pjb: Josh_2: eg. if you have a graph algorithm using vectors of small and compact ints as nodes, you may keep the uglyness, but wrap it in a function that would map a list of symbols or other lisp objects to the fixnums. 2017-11-14T18:18:49Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:22:02Z Josh_2: Well both the algorithms are fuzzy string matchers 2017-11-14T18:22:14Z shka: good evening! 2017-11-14T18:22:43Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:22:46Z pjb: Josh_2: so as long as your API takes lisp strings, you can do anything inside. Like converting strings to trees of fixnums (using code-char), etc. 2017-11-14T18:23:15Z pjb: Josh_2: functional abstractions; we don't care what's inside as long as it's bug-free, and does the job. 2017-11-14T18:23:51Z Josh_2: Alright thanks for the heads up! 2017-11-14T18:24:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:25:01Z turkja: but there's nothing wrong in writing lisp like C, it's still better than writing C like C 2017-11-14T18:25:11Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:25:22Z pjb: indeed 2017-11-14T18:25:55Z shka: Josh_2: i fully agree with pjb, as a example, this is clustering algorithm i implemented recently, notice how ugly it is underneath 2017-11-14T18:25:56Z shka: https://pastebin.com/pUk6aPLm 2017-11-14T18:27:03Z shka: i think i could make it slightly prettier, but frankly, API is reasonable 2017-11-14T18:27:08Z shka: so why should i care? 2017-11-14T18:28:29Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T18:28:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T18:29:14Z shka: well, i still want to clean it 2017-11-14T18:29:34Z mrottenkolber: shka: yeah too be honest that looks kinda brutal 2017-11-14T18:30:01Z shka: was in the hurry 2017-11-14T18:30:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-14T18:30:56Z jmercouris: shka: Yeah, I don't know I agree with that, as the underlying maintainer, you should care, as you will have to expand and fix the code when it breaks 2017-11-14T18:31:11Z jmercouris: Users of your API should not concern themselves, but you yourself should 2017-11-14T18:31:22Z shka: but the point is, some things are just slightly more complicated 2017-11-14T18:31:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T18:31:35Z pjb: I would dare to say that absolutely ALL the algorithms in TAOCP look ugly in lisp. 2017-11-14T18:32:29Z takitus: pjb: But there are plenty of algorithms with an elegant functional expression that look horrible in imperative form, as well. 2017-11-14T18:32:56Z pjb: sure 2017-11-14T18:33:01Z jmercouris: takitus: Far fewer though 2017-11-14T18:33:23Z jmercouris: Basically 99% of algorithms look much better procedural style 2017-11-14T18:33:41Z jmercouris: *disclaimer* I made up that number 2017-11-14T18:34:04Z takitus: jmercouris: I suppose it's a matter of taste, but just clearing out the forest of assignments seems to improve clarity. Quicksort comes to mind. 2017-11-14T18:34:49Z shka: there is no, by definition, fully functional implementation of quicksort 2017-11-14T18:35:52Z takitus: shka: I meant improvements in clarity, not that it's a good algorithm :) 2017-11-14T18:36:07Z shka: well, yes 2017-11-14T18:36:29Z shka: but i guess it is very subjective area 2017-11-14T18:36:39Z takitus: Computational aesthetics? 2017-11-14T18:36:54Z jmercouris: I should think though that it really doesn't matter, as 99% of the job of programmers is not algorithm implementation, but glue code and object relationship structuring, and edge cases 2017-11-14T18:37:09Z shka: for instance, I am fine as long as main loop is tidy 2017-11-14T18:37:30Z shka: so i can follow basic steps 2017-11-14T18:37:40Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:37:42Z jmercouris: (defun main () (call-function-i-copied-all-code-to (arg1 ... arg99)) 2017-11-14T18:37:45Z shka: but other than that, i don't care that much 2017-11-14T18:38:02Z shka: for instance, in this paste 2017-11-14T18:38:47Z shka: choose medoids, assign data, choose efective medoids, check if we are done, post processing 2017-11-14T18:38:55Z pjb: jmercouris: what is the function arg1? 2017-11-14T18:39:31Z sjl quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-11-14T18:39:31Z takitus: jmercouris: Since the job of a programmer is to describe a computation, I should think that knowing how to express computations elegantly would be very important. 2017-11-14T18:39:36Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-11-14T18:39:54Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm joking that the user is passing several hundred args from their main function 2017-11-14T18:41:07Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-11-14T18:44:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:45:31Z paule32: hello 2017-11-14T18:45:41Z paule32: i have a problem with a class 2017-11-14T18:45:43Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/RmAB0ywD 2017-11-14T18:46:00Z paule32: the pid shall stand for programm id 2017-11-14T18:46:11Z paule32: or process id 2017-11-14T18:46:24Z Josh_2: paule32: You haven't dropped the parens to new lines *thumbs up* 2017-11-14T18:46:46Z shka: jmercouris: sounds like everything ever in R 2017-11-14T18:47:00Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T18:48:06Z pjb: jmercouris: function arguments are passed directly, you don't put them in parentheses! This is lisp! 2017-11-14T18:48:13Z pjb: (call-function-i-copied-all-code-to arg1 ... arg99) 2017-11-14T18:48:55Z jmercouris: pjb: You can pretend it's a macro :D, sorry I was thinking in python mode for a second there 2017-11-14T18:49:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T18:51:57Z pjb: paule32: you can use the backtrace debugger command to see the stack of called functions, so you may get an idea of where you've done the mistake. 2017-11-14T18:52:57Z pjb: paule32: it seems you've pasted incomplete code, since there's no make-instance 'application-gui in it. 2017-11-14T18:53:20Z paule32: oh, sorry 2017-11-14T18:53:31Z paule32: i think, we think the same 2017-11-14T18:55:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T18:58:58Z paule32: pjn: i use sbcl and run program, then type in "start" 2017-11-14T18:59:00Z paule32: (SB-C:COMPILER-ERROR SB-C::INPUT-ERROR-IN-COMPILE-FILE :CONDITION # :STREAM #) 2017-11-14T18:59:36Z paule32: is a little bit magic, to find the parens 2017-11-14T18:59:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T19:00:24Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:01:01Z SaganMan: I just realized let* is nested let 2017-11-14T19:01:47Z skali joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:01:47Z skali quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-14T19:05:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:05:35Z paule32: ah o got it 2017-11-14T19:06:17Z paule32: i find the feature of intelsense - where parentens checked which is open or closed 2017-11-14T19:07:10Z paule32: seems no write rights here, because i have to enable this by each start of the editor 2017-11-14T19:09:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T19:13:40Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T19:17:02Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-14T19:18:36Z pjb: paule32: you're programming lisp with Visual Studio? 2017-11-14T19:18:50Z paule32: haha, no 2017-11-14T19:18:56Z okflo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T19:19:44Z pjb: There's no intelsense in emacs. 2017-11-14T19:20:07Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T19:20:23Z paule32: but highlightnig 2017-11-14T19:20:59Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T19:21:11Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:22:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:24:11Z jmercouris: paule32: What are you using to program? 2017-11-14T19:24:27Z paule32: gnome gedit 2017-11-14T19:24:35Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T19:24:41Z jmercouris: paule32: Use a proper editor, and you'll have far fewer problems 2017-11-14T19:26:47Z pjb: yeah, use emacs. 2017-11-14T19:27:10Z pjb: Currently, you're programming blindfolded and both hands tied in the back… 2017-11-14T19:27:34Z paule32: hui 2017-11-14T19:27:46Z paule32: >.> 2017-11-14T19:28:10Z jmercouris: You might as well be programming only using terminal redirection 2017-11-14T19:28:25Z paule32: i have a problem with progn : https://pastebin.com/S43veXbG 2017-11-14T19:28:55Z paule32: i do this, both 2017-11-14T19:29:08Z Zhivago: Asking a question about it might be useful. 2017-11-14T19:29:08Z paule32: i am currently under gui 2017-11-14T19:29:17Z paule32: plus tui console 2017-11-14T19:29:20Z paule32: with nano 2017-11-14T19:29:31Z Zhivago: Are you wearing pants? 2017-11-14T19:29:32Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-14T19:29:35Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T19:29:52Z paule32: haha, no 2017-11-14T19:30:14Z jmercouris: Wait, are you actually programming with nano? 2017-11-14T19:30:26Z paule32: yes 2017-11-14T19:30:29Z Zhivago: Ok. Feel free to give us more irrelevant background information while you work on forming a question. 2017-11-14T19:30:32Z jmercouris: beach: I think you were right about paule32 2017-11-14T19:31:48Z Bike: this is why the goddess in her wisdom gave us the metnal capacity required to ignore things. 2017-11-14T19:31:54Z paule32: whats up? pants != shoes ? 2017-11-14T19:32:30Z Bike: the mental capacity and irc client options 2017-11-14T19:32:51Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:34:11Z paule32: s 2017-11-14T19:34:14Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:34:31Z Josh_2: paule32: you gotta use Emacs and slime 2017-11-14T19:34:54Z paule32: no, i lost at install slime 2017-11-14T19:35:24Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:35:34Z paule32: but the gurus here have no time for greenhorns 2017-11-14T19:35:44Z paule32: to help 2017-11-14T19:35:52Z Zhivago: paule32: Complain after you learn how to ask questions. 2017-11-14T19:37:03Z jmercouris: paule32: Wenn du problemen hast, du kannst mal auch in deutsch fragen, vielleicht es gibt jemanden dass ihnen hilfen kann 2017-11-14T19:37:15Z jmercouris: Just message them in private chat to avoid polluting this main channel 2017-11-14T19:37:37Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:37:38Z sukaeto: "the gurus" here have no time for someone who is going to talk at them and then ignore any advice they give 2017-11-14T19:38:25Z paule32: that is assumptation 2017-11-14T19:38:40Z paule32: not real 2017-11-14T19:38:53Z sukaeto: it is an observation of what has actually happened 2017-11-14T19:39:02Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-14T19:39:08Z paule32: i have to translate all messages, and follow the red line 2017-11-14T19:39:11Z Josh_2: paule32: Get emacs and slime http://lisp-lang.org/learn/getting-started/ 2017-11-14T19:39:26Z jmercouris: I believe shinmera has an all in one client, I can't remember what it's called 2017-11-14T19:39:31Z jmercouris: It is a one click "install" 2017-11-14T19:39:33Z Zhivago notes the continuing lack of a question. 2017-11-14T19:39:54Z cvoxel joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:41:23Z Josh_2: https://github.com/portacle that is it 2017-11-14T19:41:45Z jmercouris: paule32: https://portacle.github.io 2017-11-14T19:41:48Z pjb: Bike: and the /ignore irc command 2017-11-14T19:42:31Z jmercouris shakes first at Josh_2 for being slightly faster 2017-11-14T19:42:37Z jmercouris: s/first/fist 2017-11-14T19:42:38Z pjb: paule32: again, it would be trivial in emacs, to have a whole channel be translated automatically thru google translate. 2017-11-14T19:43:04Z pjb: Even a newbie should be able to do that in emacs lisp during an afternoon. 2017-11-14T19:43:16Z jmercouris: pjb: I also told him that he can just ask in German, and likely someone can also help him in German 2017-11-14T19:43:35Z jmercouris: pjb: There is no german speaking lisp channel unfortunately 2017-11-14T19:43:53Z pjb: jmercouris: you can create one, just type /join #lisp-de 2017-11-14T19:44:14Z takitus left #lisp 2017-11-14T19:44:22Z pjb: and you may add it to http://cliki.net/IRC if you intend to stay on it. 2017-11-14T19:45:19Z pjb: paule32: you don't have a problem with progn. In your pasted code, progn is about the only thing that works correctly. Even if you could remove it and it wouldn't make a difference. 2017-11-14T19:45:39Z paule32: Josh_2: https://pastebin.com/nBE7FAQP 2017-11-14T19:46:14Z pjb: paule32: You're writing expressions that have no side effect and of which you don't use the result. 2017-11-14T19:46:30Z Josh_2: pjb: there is a spelling error on that site #lispweb "developped" 2017-11-14T19:46:44Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:47:19Z pjb: paule32: you're referencing to variables that are undefined. 2017-11-14T19:47:31Z pjb: Josh_2: it's a wiki, correct it! 2017-11-14T19:47:55Z Josh_2: I will do that 2017-11-14T19:48:04Z pjb: paule32: you still don't get it that to call a function you have to use the Call operator: ( 2017-11-14T19:48:24Z Josh_2: The site isn't HTTPS and it wants me to put in an email and pass... 2017-11-14T19:48:26Z pjb: paule32: as in ( kallup-init-app ) = Call the function kallup-init-app and no more argument. 2017-11-14T19:49:01Z pjb: paule32: in lisp we need a closing parenthesis for all expressions, because they can take a variable number of argument, and we want to be able to process them with macros that don't know the operators! 2017-11-14T19:49:04Z paule32: thank you pjb 2017-11-14T19:49:19Z pjb: paule32: hence (kallup-init-app) ; we don't write useless spaces. 2017-11-14T19:49:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:49:51Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-11-14T19:50:15Z paule32: ok 2017-11-14T19:51:41Z Josh_2: Okay I fixed it 2017-11-14T19:52:04Z cvoxel left #lisp 2017-11-14T19:52:12Z pjb: Josh_2: thanks. 2017-11-14T19:52:55Z tumdum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T19:53:39Z WorldControl quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-11-14T19:55:18Z Josh_2: There is a dead link in the getting started, shall I remove the whole entry? I am going to put that new link that I posted just a minute a go in its place? Sorry for the question I've never done this before 2017-11-14T19:57:03Z Josh_2: I just left it and left a comment in the HTML 2017-11-14T19:58:09Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-11-14T20:00:39Z pjb: Depends what link? 2017-11-14T20:01:52Z pjb: Usually it's good to keep the dead link around. Perhaps it'll resurrect. Or we may find it in archive.org 2017-11-14T20:01:55Z Josh_2: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started "Getting started in Common Lisp on ubuntu" Doesn't work for me. I added the link underneath. 2017-11-14T20:02:49Z jstoddard joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:03:38Z pjb: this link? http://www.osix.net/modules/article/?id=912 2017-11-14T20:05:15Z Josh_2: yes 2017-11-14T20:05:35Z Josh_2: That's the one that isn't working for me 2017-11-14T20:05:44Z pjb: There's an old version at https://web.archive.org/web/20120505215422/http://osix.net/modules/article/?id=912 2017-11-14T20:06:06Z pjb: So you mean indicate it on the page, and link to the archive instead. 2017-11-14T20:10:17Z Josh_2: I guess so 2017-11-14T20:16:21Z pjb: /mean/may/ 2017-11-14T20:18:28Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T20:19:44Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-11-14T20:20:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-14T20:23:14Z rpg: Xach, XachX: about to release ASDF 3.3.1 I can no longer replicate your issue with loading the new UIOP. 2017-11-14T20:23:27Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T20:24:39Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:25:08Z dmiles: can (defun (setf foo) ..) be easily transformed to s (defsetf foo ..) ? 2017-11-14T20:25:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:25:16Z Ober: failing on lw7.1 also? 2017-11-14T20:25:43Z Bike: easily? well, it's not that hard 2017-11-14T20:25:49Z Josh_2: dmiles: with a macro 2017-11-14T20:26:02Z Bike: they mean different things, though 2017-11-14T20:27:21Z Josh_2: I did not realize that (defsetf is already a function 2017-11-14T20:28:04Z dmiles: i am failing at googling to find an exact tranformation.. lets say i wanted to transtate my defsetf (long and short forms ti defun (setfs ..) 2017-11-14T20:28:35Z Bike: well, that might not always be possible. defsetf makes something like a macro, so it can use compile time things. 2017-11-14T20:28:38Z Bike: though it probably won't. 2017-11-14T20:28:51Z dmiles: ok but the other direction would work? 2017-11-14T20:28:59Z Bike: yeah, it's like janky inlining. 2017-11-14T20:29:10Z Bike: why do you want to? 2017-11-14T20:29:55Z dmiles: its for my compiler and i want a single represenation.. or two .. but not three 2017-11-14T20:29:55Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-11-14T20:30:21Z Bike: i don't follow. defsetf and (defun (setf ...) ...) do different things. 2017-11-14T20:30:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T20:30:35Z Bike: the former tells setf how to macroexpand. the latter just defines the function called by the default macroexpansion. 2017-11-14T20:30:40Z dmiles: jsut as defsetf shortform and long form do differnt things right? 2017-11-14T20:31:16Z Bike: no, in that case the short form is kind of a shorthand for a stereotyped long form. 2017-11-14T20:31:47Z dmiles: ok good.. so at least i only need two representation 2017-11-14T20:31:58Z dmiles: (i cna convert the short form to long form) 2017-11-14T20:32:06Z dmiles: cna/can 2017-11-14T20:32:39Z Bike: I don't understand what you mean by "representation". 2017-11-14T20:33:21Z dmiles: a "representation" would be a single evaluatable form (one API) 2017-11-14T20:34:02Z dmiles: that each setf expander would macroexpand into 2017-11-14T20:34:22Z vzerda joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:34:24Z Bike: setf expanders are functions. 2017-11-14T20:35:20Z Bike: you can have defsetf and define-modify-macro expand into define-setf-expander, which hangs a function somewhere where get-setf-expansion can use it. 2017-11-14T20:35:40Z Bike: er, not define-modify-macro. 2017-11-14T20:36:03Z dmiles: ok yes it looks like all the forms can be converted to a DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER 2017-11-14T20:37:04Z Josh_2: pjb: on the home page "exercises" is spelt wrong but I can't change because it is a link to a new page which is named incorrectly 2017-11-14T20:37:32Z Josh_2: It's spelt "excercices" 2017-11-14T20:37:58Z vsync: what's the advantage of funcallable-standard-object over an object with a slot holding the function? 2017-11-14T20:38:35Z shka: vsync: they are for different things 2017-11-14T20:38:37Z vsync: it saves an extra lookup I guess if there's only 1 function associated but it certainly avoids the "linking them in separate hashtable" mentioned in spec 2017-11-14T20:39:03Z vsync: shka: oh? 2017-11-14T20:39:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:39:30Z shka: funcallable-standard-object can be a generic function 2017-11-14T20:39:43Z shka: and this comes with method combinations and all that jazz 2017-11-14T20:40:34Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-14T20:40:34Z vsync: yeah but couldn't you put a generic function in the slot too? 2017-11-14T20:40:37Z dmiles: Bike.. ok a "represention is what is stored in *setf-expanders* .. i see that emacs-cl has definations that populate that variable https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/emacs-cl/cl-flow.el#L640-L722 2017-11-14T20:40:50Z shka: you can, but now you are doing this for a different reason 2017-11-14T20:41:01Z vsync: how so? 2017-11-14T20:41:10Z paule32: Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading `/home/jens/.emacs': 2017-11-14T20:41:10Z paule32: File error: Cannot open load file, /home/jens/.quicklisp/slime-helper.el 2017-11-14T20:41:18Z dra_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-14T20:41:23Z paule32: i have tried chown 2017-11-14T20:41:23Z shka: so, you have custom funcallable-standard-object subclass 2017-11-14T20:41:35Z shka: why did you made this subclass? 2017-11-14T20:41:35Z jstoddard quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-14T20:41:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:41:53Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:41:56Z vsync: hmm...brb 2017-11-14T20:42:14Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-14T20:43:05Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T20:45:50Z vsync: shka: that's partly what I'm trying to grok :-) 2017-11-14T20:46:16Z vsync: but presumably to have some state and also close over it 2017-11-14T20:46:17Z shka: well, subclass of funcallable-standard-object is not a common sight 2017-11-14T20:46:33Z shka: i have this in my lib 2017-11-14T20:46:40Z shka: but i have my reasons 2017-11-14T20:46:45Z vsync: and not sure why it can't just be a function that gets the state it needs from the object 2017-11-14T20:46:47Z shka: could you show your code? 2017-11-14T20:47:20Z vsync: I guess for some reason of having code that doesn't know what name your function is, or something 2017-11-14T20:47:27Z vsync: brain's kinda not on all cylinders today 2017-11-14T20:47:31Z vsync: oh I don't have any code 2017-11-14T20:47:51Z vsync: I'm trying to learn what it's about so I know the point when I might have code that could benefit from it 2017-11-14T20:48:02Z shka: uh, so should i show my? 2017-11-14T20:48:04Z shka: well, ok 2017-11-14T20:48:09Z vsync: that would be awesome 2017-11-14T20:48:13Z shka: second 2017-11-14T20:48:19Z vsync: the constructor example didn't quite make me understand the point 2017-11-14T20:48:57Z shka: take a look at that 2017-11-14T20:48:58Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/master/src/api/meta.lisp 2017-11-14T20:49:06Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/master/src/api/generics.lisp 2017-11-14T20:49:46Z shka: so what i am doing here is that i constructed protocol describing generic functions 2017-11-14T20:50:17Z paule32: so, my first windows with lisp is gone 2017-11-14T20:50:22Z shka: so now i know at the runtime that generic function will try to enlarge my container 2017-11-14T20:50:32Z paule32: thank you for helping - gn8 2017-11-14T20:50:37Z shka: for instance 2017-11-14T20:51:31Z shka: i can also dispatch methods on my api functions 2017-11-14T20:52:07Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/b5c28fed6429117a1edc73ff75abdc55ddb07200/src/dicts/common.lisp#L204 2017-11-14T20:52:13Z shka: like this for instance 2017-11-14T20:53:06Z shka: this way algorithm does not care what SPECIFIC function it is working with because all it really needs to know that it can use this function as argument to make-bucket 2017-11-14T20:54:16Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T20:55:02Z shka: all of this allows me to share code between multiple implementations of functions that modify container 2017-11-14T20:55:10Z Bike: dmiles: this is wrong, short form defsetf can have documentation. i don't know what emacs-cl is though. 2017-11-14T20:55:30Z shka: which is nice, because it reduces number of code lines i have to maintain 2017-11-14T20:56:18Z shka: vsync: does that looks better? 2017-11-14T20:56:44Z vsync: 1sec, got pulled, sorry 2017-11-14T20:57:07Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2017-11-14T21:19:19Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:20:05Z shka: well, as for position-modification: it is generic function that is supposed to perform modification of container 2017-11-14T21:20:07Z vsync: for example defmethod cl-ds:add on (functional-dictionary t t), first one 2017-11-14T21:20:29Z shka: because not all api functions should be applicable to everything 2017-11-14T21:20:54Z shka: this way, user will get typical exception about lack of method 2017-11-14T21:21:29Z vsync: yeah but wouldn't you get the same from just making a method of cl-ds:add on the type of container that it is 2017-11-14T21:21:47Z shka: that's what i am doing here to be honest 2017-11-14T21:21:54Z vsync: rather than a method of position-modification 2017-11-14T21:22:03Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:22:09Z shka: position-modification is for something else 2017-11-14T21:22:22Z shka: you see, i have few ways to insert element into dictionary 2017-11-14T21:22:36Z shka: add, insert, update (could add update-if as well) 2017-11-14T21:22:56Z vsync: yeah 2017-11-14T21:22:59Z shka: all have the same position-modification implementation for data structure 2017-11-14T21:23:48Z shka: which i like, because i don't have to maintain separate copies of the same code 2017-11-14T21:23:55Z vsync: how so? 2017-11-14T21:24:05Z vsync: they're named different because they have different semantics right? 2017-11-14T21:24:55Z shka: yes, but they have something in common 2017-11-14T21:25:12Z vsync: or is it on a different type of container, like a set, that it would do different things? 2017-11-14T21:25:14Z shka: namely, all will attempt to insert another value into container 2017-11-14T21:25:19Z vsync: ok 2017-11-14T21:25:43Z shka: which i call grow 2017-11-14T21:25:44Z vsync: ohhhhhhh 2017-11-14T21:26:04Z vsync: so if you have a container type that 2 operations do the same thing 2017-11-14T21:26:16Z shka: yes 2017-11-14T21:26:17Z vsync: you can specialize on the type of it? 2017-11-14T21:26:21Z shka: sure 2017-11-14T21:26:29Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/b5c28fed6429117a1edc73ff75abdc55ddb07200/src/dicts/hamt/api.lisp#L105 2017-11-14T21:26:32Z shka: take a look at this 2017-11-14T21:26:52Z vsync: ok but for a dict won't you clobber a value already there? so not necessarily growing 2017-11-14T21:26:59Z shka: depends! 2017-11-14T21:27:19Z shka: insert will clobber, update will only clobber, add will never clobber 2017-11-14T21:27:28Z vsync: nice 2017-11-14T21:27:41Z shka: but that's just another value for me to return 2017-11-14T21:28:23Z shka: on the lower level i have set of functions, they will return status of operation which includes information like: did anything actually changed? 2017-11-14T21:28:43Z shka: or: what was old value 2017-11-14T21:28:56Z shka: look at line 153 2017-11-14T21:29:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T21:29:04Z shka: actually 152 2017-11-14T21:29:27Z vsync: k 2017-11-14T21:30:05Z vsync: ohhhhh 2017-11-14T21:30:14Z vsync: because for the functional variants you need to do common rebuilding stuff 2017-11-14T21:30:17Z vsync: ok 2017-11-14T21:30:21Z shka: yes 2017-11-14T21:30:48Z vsync: so where do methods of grow-bucket live? for dicts 2017-11-14T21:30:49Z shka: and having this indirection layer makes things way simpler 2017-11-14T21:30:54Z vsync: or types of dicts 2017-11-14T21:31:13Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-14T21:31:18Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/b5c28fed6429117a1edc73ff75abdc55ddb07200/src/dicts/common.lisp#L131 here it is 2017-11-14T21:31:23Z vsync: yeah I guess I would have done with a function that takes a function, or an :around method, or a macro 2017-11-14T21:31:31Z vsync: but naively and I haven't gotten into it like you have 2017-11-14T21:32:18Z vsync: so does update signal an error if the key doesn't exist already? 2017-11-14T21:32:39Z shka: nah, it just returns second value 2017-11-14T21:33:06Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:33:26Z shka: i have docs describing library itself 2017-11-14T21:33:27Z shka: https://sirherrbatka.github.io/cl-data-structures/main.html 2017-11-14T21:34:41Z shka: anyway, thanks to this object oriented description of functions, i can easily do higher order stuff without code duplication 2017-11-14T21:35:05Z shka: like for instance this https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/b5c28fed6429117a1edc73ff75abdc55ddb07200/src/common/lazy-box.lisp#L72 2017-11-14T21:35:17Z shka: i have lazy evaluation in place 2017-11-14T21:36:09Z shka: and when I add another api function that calls position-modification, i don't have to touch this file at all 2017-11-14T21:36:10Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-11-14T21:36:24Z shka: all thanks to this one trick 2017-11-14T21:36:57Z vsync: colo 2017-11-14T21:37:00Z vsync: cool 2017-11-14T21:37:07Z shka: yeah 2017-11-14T21:37:08Z vsync: docs look nice... generated? or hand-coded? 2017-11-14T21:37:09Z shka: :-) 2017-11-14T21:37:15Z shka: generated 2017-11-14T21:37:33Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:37:43Z vsync: what do you use to make them? 2017-11-14T21:37:59Z shka: i wrote my own generator 2017-11-14T21:38:02Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-lore 2017-11-14T21:38:05Z vsync: looks like it calculates rectangle sizes just a little too small though 2017-11-14T21:38:23Z shka: it is rough around the edges to say the least 2017-11-14T21:38:42Z safe joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:39:11Z shka: it also enforces usage of another of my libs, which is suboptimal for anyone but me 2017-11-14T21:39:12Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-14T21:39:39Z shka: but it works for me, and honestly i care almost only about cl-data-structures nowdays 2017-11-14T21:39:43Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T21:40:27Z vsync: so back to the funcallable stuff 2017-11-14T21:40:48Z shka: yeah? 2017-11-14T21:41:32Z vsync: I notice in the example https://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs164/fa05/doc/mop/concepts.html#funcallable-instances 2017-11-14T21:41:49Z vsync: they're not hanging fancy methods off it 2017-11-14T21:42:03Z vsync: it seems to be for a different purpose 2017-11-14T21:42:15Z shka: not huge fan of this example myself 2017-11-14T21:42:37Z shka: but that works, as well, i guess 2017-11-14T21:42:47Z vsync: i guess it's most handy for reentrant sort of stuff 2017-11-14T21:42:55Z vsync: where you're dealing with things that only deal with functions 2017-11-14T21:43:01Z vsync: and you may get your own function back later 2017-11-14T21:43:04Z vsync: and want to introspect on it 2017-11-14T21:43:17Z vsync: aside from the stuff you showed 2017-11-14T21:45:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:45:02Z shka: well, honestly i would just curry a function instead of doing that construct stuff 2017-11-14T21:45:18Z vsync: well yeah for that example 2017-11-14T21:46:10Z shka: anyway, for me, it is awesome feature 2017-11-14T21:47:16Z shka: but i never felt like i need to tinker around set-funcallable-instance-function 2017-11-14T21:48:08Z shka: which is ironic, because example tries to show that this is why this thing exists 2017-11-14T21:48:48Z shka: it actually is the case, if you want to implement OO from scratch, but i never felt like doing that 2017-11-14T21:49:36Z shka: vsync: good night 2017-11-14T21:49:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-14T21:49:42Z vsync: night, thanks 2017-11-14T21:49:45Z shka: i'm glad that i could be of any assistance 2017-11-14T21:49:46Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-14T21:49:55Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:49:56Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2017-11-14T21:50:39Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-14T21:52:36Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:54:12Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T21:55:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:56:40Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:57:22Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-14T21:59:14Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-14T21:59:41Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T21:59:56Z klltkr_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I have to use trivial-gray-streams to define my own stream(s). 2017-11-14T22:04:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T22:05:01Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:06:39Z k-stz joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:08:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:10:18Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:10:22Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:11:16Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-11-14T22:11:24Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:14:59Z aeth: And... it looks like charcter streams are backed by a (circular?) buffer string of size (expt 2 13) 2017-11-14T22:15:42Z aeth: So if that's true I can just dust off my queue as circular buffer macro and stick the resulting struct in the new stream class under a buffer slot. 2017-11-14T22:16:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:16:33Z aeth: (Technically, I could just make the stream class a circular buffer directly, but I already have one as a macro.) 2017-11-14T22:18:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:19:41Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T22:21:53Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:23:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:24:35Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:29:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:34:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:37:47Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:44:47Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-14T22:49:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:52:27Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:52:52Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:53:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-14T22:54:16Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-11-14T22:58:31Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-11-14T22:58:45Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T22:59:50Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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We got it to work with the Memory Pool System garbage collector. 2017-11-15T04:01:34Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:01:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:01:47Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:02:29Z aeth: drmeister: Does clasp have a way to profile allocations? 2017-11-15T04:02:54Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T04:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:03:36Z drmeister: aeth: I'm not sure what that is - do you mean what functions are doing lots of allocations? 2017-11-15T04:04:25Z aeth: yeah 2017-11-15T04:04:42Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:04:53Z aeth: SBCL seems to be the best at the moment at profiling allocations. With some implementations, it's hard to see where the heavy allocations are going on. 2017-11-15T04:04:59Z aeth: Useful e.g. in a gigantic loop 2017-11-15T04:05:57Z drmeister: I haven't really thought about it - how would you do something like that? I can get backtraces at any point. 2017-11-15T04:06:03Z drmeister: How does SBCL profile allocations? 2017-11-15T04:06:31Z Bike: backtrace sampling might not be reliable if allocations are fast enough to slip through 2017-11-15T04:06:35Z drmeister: I ask because we've recently made a lot of progress profiling Clasp. The neatest thing we've discovered is flame graphs. 2017-11-15T04:06:58Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/tHIPCi0.png 2017-11-15T04:07:33Z aeth: There's two profiles in SBCL afaik. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Statistical-Profiler http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Deterministic-Profiler 2017-11-15T04:07:38Z drmeister: Well, I can get a backtrace with every allocation - or every Nth allocation. But is there a better way? 2017-11-15T04:07:54Z Bike: actually, doesn't mps have instrumentation? 2017-11-15T04:08:11Z aeth: Bike: One thing related to allocations that SBCL does that's nice is it comments the allocations in the disassembly, helps double check the profiling. 2017-11-15T04:08:20Z drmeister: Because flame graphs that profile allocations would be insanely useful. 2017-11-15T04:08:25Z aeth: Bike: i.e. if the profiler says 0 and the disassembly doesn't have commented allocations I feel more confident 2017-11-15T04:09:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:09:57Z drmeister: Bike: It has some - I'll have to learn more about it now that it's working for us. 2017-11-15T04:10:13Z Bike: aeth: we don't inline many allocations at this point, so 2017-11-15T04:11:25Z Bike: ah, here we go, telemetry 2017-11-15T04:11:40Z Bike: "mpseventsql takes the output of mpseventcnv and loads it into a SQLite database for further analysis." how involved 2017-11-15T04:11:52Z drmeister: Bike: Actually - I discovered that we do inline a lot of allocations. When I put breakpoints in the allocation function in the last week - thousands of breakpoints get installed. That suggests inlining - doesn't it? 2017-11-15T04:12:08Z Bike: it would have to be llvm level then 2017-11-15T04:12:21Z drmeister: Yes 2017-11-15T04:12:24Z Bike: which is plausible i suppose 2017-11-15T04:13:47Z aeth: Bike: ah, true, not inlined allocations do not show up that way, e.g. a call to a not-inlined make-foo (which apparently includes make-string in SBCL). But I guess those are obvious in other ways, and technically not in that function. 2017-11-15T04:14:17Z aeth: actually, wait, make-string gets inlined, but only when it's not going to give a runtime error 2017-11-15T04:14:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:14:24Z aeth: fun, I typoed it 2017-11-15T04:14:44Z drmeister: Bike: And the allocations are "mostly lockless". Only when it hits the end of a page does MPS have to lock things. 2017-11-15T04:14:54Z Bike: what's actually in mps telemetry streams doesn't seem to be explained, but they go through a lot of effort to allow shitloads of output so i'm guessing a lot 2017-11-15T04:15:23Z drmeister: I only tried to gather telemetry once - it was a bit involved. 2017-11-15T04:16:15Z moei joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:16:26Z Bike: it seems like the obvious way to do allocation profiling, is all 2017-11-15T04:16:47Z Bike: though it might not record callers 2017-11-15T04:17:16Z drmeister: Well, we can - I just need to know how often and where to store the info. 2017-11-15T04:17:49Z drmeister: Because we can profile allocations from C++ and CL together (once we inline allocators in CL code). 2017-11-15T04:18:00Z Bike: the very-detailed room is nice in the meantime though (maybe we should put some arguments in it to allow shorter output, though) 2017-11-15T04:18:15Z drmeister: Sure. 2017-11-15T04:18:23Z Bike: though, does it only distinguish C++ classes? like, does it list conses and vectors separately? 2017-11-15T04:19:44Z drmeister: I don't think it lists conses at all - but I should add that. It distinguishes things by header stamps. I don't think it distinguishes CLOS classes. They are all Instance_O. We can add that though. 2017-11-15T04:20:03Z Bike: yeah, that would be good. 2017-11-15T04:20:12Z drmeister: Cons cells are stored in a separate pool from objects that derive from General_O 2017-11-15T04:20:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:20:32Z Bike: huh... 2017-11-15T04:20:40Z drmeister: Cons_O objects don't have a header. They are two words each. 2017-11-15T04:20:51Z Bike: does having a pool with uniform object size help? i suppose it would. 2017-11-15T04:21:34Z drmeister: Maybe - I was looking for that today but didn't find it. I think the biggest benefit is no header and the pointer fixing is simpler. 2017-11-15T04:23:26Z drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/dev/src/gctools/mpsGarbageCollection.cc#L282 2017-11-15T04:24:29Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:24:47Z Bike: still have variable size pads, right. 2017-11-15T04:24:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:25:57Z pfdietz: "when Souper is used as a fully automated optimization pass it compiles a Clang compiler binary that is about 3 MB (4.4%) smaller than the one compiled by LLVM." https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.04422 2017-11-15T04:27:52Z drmeister: Bike: Yeah - that's up to MPS to decide how large the block of memory is that contains the Cons objects. It may choose a multiple of 16 bytes - or not. 2017-11-15T04:28:53Z Bike: inconvenient. oh well. 2017-11-15T04:29:21Z drmeister: I don't know - we could ask the Ravenbrook folks. 2017-11-15T04:29:40Z Bike: probably there are other fish to fry first 2017-11-15T04:30:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:31:01Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-11-15T04:31:10Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-15T04:33:31Z drmeister: I'm really feeling good about things. With the optimizations you've made and that I've made... call me crazy... but I might even let someone use it again. 2017-11-15T04:34:35Z midre quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-11-15T04:35:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:35:42Z drmeister: I know, I know - you think I'm huffing screen cleaning fluid again. 2017-11-15T04:37:23Z drmeister is just kidding - he is fully aware that the only thing you should clean a screen with is water and a soft, lint-free towel. 2017-11-15T04:37:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:39:00Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:39:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:39:41Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:40:12Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:40:19Z Lord_Nightmare: drmeister: dropping the screen in a bucket of water and drying it with a lint free towel doesn't work well, especially if it is still plugged in 2017-11-15T04:40:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:43:13Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T04:43:18Z Oladon: Lord_Nightmare: What do you mean by "doesn't work well"? I'll bet your screen ends up pretty clean. 2017-11-15T04:45:26Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:47:42Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:49:01Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:50:48Z krwq: does anyone know if closure-html converts tags local-name? I have a website which contains
tag but when I list all nodes with plexippus xpath and list unique local-name it does not show "article" 2017-11-15T04:50:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T04:54:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-11-15T04:54:44Z beach: pjb: Yes, I like that idea. 2017-11-15T04:55:01Z krwq: Good morning beach 2017-11-15T04:55:20Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T04:55:29Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T04:56:51Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:00:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:01:04Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T05:04:32Z arrdem left #lisp 2017-11-15T05:05:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:08:49Z manualcrank quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:11:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:14:07Z jstoddard quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:14:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:15:48Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:16:51Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:18:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:24:23Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: nsrahmad) 2017-11-15T05:31:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:35:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:36:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:36:58Z engblom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:38:48Z engblom joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:40:49Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:48:19Z drmeister: aeth: It appears that for the deterministic sbcl profiler it takes a sample roughly every N bytes allocated. We can do that. 2017-11-15T05:51:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T05:56:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-15T05:56:33Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-11-15T06:11:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:11:48Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-15T06:12:58Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:14:29Z aeth: drmeister: great 2017-11-15T06:15:48Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:16:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T06:17:45Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:20:13Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:25:48Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:32:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:36:34Z shka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:36:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T06:37:39Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-15T06:43:05Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:43:33Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:44:23Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-15T06:44:28Z alpert joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:50:10Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:50:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:50:58Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:51:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:51:21Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:51:45Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:52:03Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:52:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:52:32Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:52:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:53:19Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:53:32Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:53:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:53:43Z krwq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-15T06:54:06Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:54:24Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:54:53Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:55:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:55:41Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:55:54Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-15T06:55:58Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:56:06Z flip214: Can a nested ITERATE form collect data into a result of the outer ITERATE? I mean directly via (COLLECT), not via returning a result and APPENDING that on the outside. 2017-11-15T06:56:21Z shka: flip214: no 2017-11-15T06:56:28Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:56:41Z shka: with result = nil in the outer and push into it 2017-11-15T06:56:46Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:56:57Z shka: well, this may be not true actually 2017-11-15T06:57:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T06:57:10Z shka: check if collect into works 2017-11-15T06:57:15Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:57:21Z shka: it may (but i don't think it will) 2017-11-15T06:57:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:58:03Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:58:20Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:58:50Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T06:59:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T06:59:20Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 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2017-11-15T10:12:29Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-15T10:13:33Z Trasformatore: please how can I dispatch javascript code with hunchentoot? I'm using define-easy-handlers but I've got error 404 2017-11-15T10:19:32Z nika quit 2017-11-15T10:20:13Z loke`: Trasformatore: Create a minimal test case and paste it somewhere fopr us to see. 2017-11-15T10:21:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T10:26:34Z Trasformatore: loke`, solved! Thanks! 2017-11-15T10:28:50Z loke`: I didn't do anything, but sure. 2017-11-15T10:29:04Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-15T10:29:52Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-15T10:38:21Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-15T10:41:26Z MrBismuth quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-11-15T10:41:26Z MrBusiness quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-11-15T10:44:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-15T10:45:37Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-11-15T10:46:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T10:51:27Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-15T10:54:12Z norserob joined #lisp 2017-11-15T10:55:30Z heisig joined #lisp 2017-11-15T10:57:47Z norserob quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-15T10:58:12Z norserob joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:01:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:01:54Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-15T11:04:09Z heisig: Hello everyone 2017-11-15T11:04:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T11:04:32Z jackdaniel: hey heisig 2017-11-15T11:04:58Z heisig: Good news: I just startet teaching Lisp at my University! 2017-11-15T11:05:04Z jackdaniel: loke`: mere fact of your attention influences software ;) 2017-11-15T11:05:21Z jackdaniel: heisig: congrats! do you teach Common Lisp? 2017-11-15T11:05:29Z heisig: Of course! 2017-11-15T11:05:41Z jackdaniel: cool. Is your name Marco by chance? 2017-11-15T11:05:51Z heisig: yes 2017-11-15T11:06:07Z jackdaniel: oh, then we know each other from ELS :) 2017-11-15T11:09:45Z heisig: Does anyone happen to have lecture slides on Lisp macros? Preferably in English, German or French. 2017-11-15T11:11:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:11:32Z cess11_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T11:19:25Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T11:21:03Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T11:28:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:36:14Z beach: heisig: Turns out I do. Hold on... 2017-11-15T11:37:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:39:14Z beach: http://metamodular.com/pfs.pdf starting on slide 85 2017-11-15T11:39:47Z beach: heisig: The examples are mainly from OnLisp it seems. 2017-11-15T11:39:51Z cess11 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:41:53Z beach: Those slides date from 2004. I am pretty sure I would do it a bit differently now. But you can use them as a starting point. 2017-11-15T11:42:35Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:43:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T11:43:57Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:44:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:45:41Z Tobbi joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:51:08Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T11:52:55Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:54:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:54:24Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-11-15T11:59:04Z heisig: beach: Thank you! I was counting on you in this respect :) 2017-11-15T11:59:27Z beach: Heh, yes, I see. 2017-11-15T12:00:12Z heisig: I think I can even do some more advanced macro features, too. 2017-11-15T12:00:23Z beach: Great! 2017-11-15T12:00:31Z heisig: Our lecture is a master course on metaprogramming and code generation. 2017-11-15T12:00:41Z beach: Oh, yes, definitely. 2017-11-15T12:00:52Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T12:01:06Z beach: Hold on then. I also gave a class called "embedded languages". Let's see if I can find the slides. 2017-11-15T12:04:23Z beach: http://metamodular.com/le.pdf 2017-11-15T12:04:46Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-11-15T12:05:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T12:05:59Z beach: Among other things, it contains an implementation of "prescript" which is a prefix version of PostScript. 2017-11-15T12:07:28Z beach: It is first implemented as an interpreter and then as a compiler. 2017-11-15T12:09:46Z Shinmera: PAIP also has a chapter on implementing prolog, no? 2017-11-15T12:10:00Z Shinmera: Or two, actually. Interpreter and compiler, if I remember correctly. 2017-11-15T12:10:22Z beach: Sounds right. 2017-11-15T12:10:37Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-15T12:11:52Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:12:50Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:12:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:16:03Z hajovonta: hi 2017-11-15T12:17:33Z hajovonta: is there a solution for pretty printing code that has no formatting, e.g. is a one-liner and I want to make it look like it was formatted according to conventions ? 2017-11-15T12:18:23Z hajovonta: like when it's in the form (defun blah (a b) (+ a b)) and it would output (defun blah (a b)\n(+ a b)) 2017-11-15T12:18:26Z Shinmera: The solution is to write a pretty printer that follows Slime's indentation rules. 2017-11-15T12:19:02Z hajovonta: yes, that was the thought of mine, too. But maybe you know of one that is readily available 2017-11-15T12:19:10Z Shinmera: I do not. 2017-11-15T12:19:58Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:20:47Z drmeister thinks Programs are so sexy when written in French. 2017-11-15T12:21:13Z Shinmera: Even if you do follow Slime's rules, pretty printing code is a hard problem, as strict rules aren't always a good idea (eg, knowing when to wrap arguments to their own lines) 2017-11-15T12:22:13Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T12:23:35Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T12:23:51Z otwieracz: Hi. 2017-11-15T12:24:11Z Bicyclidine is now known as Bike 2017-11-15T12:24:22Z otwieracz: Reported heap usage by my SBCL image is 240MB - however, RES reported by htop is 2072MB and slowly growing. 2017-11-15T12:24:55Z otwieracz: Do you have any ideas how to debug what is consuming memory here? 2017-11-15T12:26:20Z Shinmera: I'm guessing foreign memory is not reported by ROOM 2017-11-15T12:27:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:27:46Z otwieracz: Full GC run reduced usage to 1500MB 2017-11-15T12:27:51Z otwieracz: And it's quickly gowring now 2017-11-15T12:27:56Z otwieracz: Already 1.7GB 2017-11-15T12:28:46Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-15T12:29:21Z hajovonta: Shinmera: thanks 2017-11-15T12:29:40Z hajovonta: I guess I'll just implement 1-2 simple rule to make it look somewhat good 2017-11-15T12:31:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:33:53Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:39:20Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-15T12:41:32Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:49:18Z scymtym: otwieracz: is your program using foreign code? in that case, could the foreign code be leaking memory? 2017-11-15T12:49:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T12:49:36Z otwieracz: hmm 2017-11-15T12:49:37Z otwieracz: yes 2017-11-15T12:49:46Z otwieracz: it's actually calling libcurl; 2017-11-15T12:50:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T12:52:30Z heisig: beach: Thank you for the embedded language slides! 2017-11-15T12:53:09Z heisig: You know stuff is getting serious when you implement a COMPOSE function in your compiler :) 2017-11-15T12:57:24Z Tobbi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-15T13:45:53Z paule32: hello 2017-11-15T13:45:55Z paule32: (defun setup-controls() 2017-11-15T13:45:55Z paule32: (print "121212")) 2017-11-15T13:45:55Z paule32: (defvar *application-id-controls* (setup-controls)) 2017-11-15T13:46:04Z paule32: i need a callback like function 2017-11-15T13:46:11Z paule32: why? 2017-11-15T13:46:25Z paule32: i have a function, that init the application 2017-11-15T13:46:38Z paule32: an other function runs the application 2017-11-15T13:47:13Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-15T13:47:19Z paule32: and between this steps, i need a user defined function, which holds informations like pushbuttons ... 2017-11-15T13:52:11Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-15T13:52:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-11-15T13:58:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T13:58:59Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-11-15T13:59:23Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:02:36Z klltkr joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:06:06Z mson joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:07:52Z hajovonta: paule32: something like (setf *var* #'setup-controls) ? 2017-11-15T14:07:58Z hajovonta: it's funcall-able 2017-11-15T14:08:50Z beach: hajovonta: You are encouraging the anti-social behavior of paule32. 2017-11-15T14:12:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:12:47Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:13:56Z hajovonta: beach: sorry, I don't know him 2017-11-15T14:14:21Z hajovonta: didn't know he's a troll 2017-11-15T14:14:41Z nullman joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:15:43Z beach: I don't think he is a troll, but paule32 has a long history of asking questions and then not following the advice given. Instead, he posts code that does not respect widely agreed-upon conventions, making it very hard to read it. So it is very likely a waste of time to try to help. 2017-11-15T14:16:48Z hajovonta: I see 2017-11-15T14:16:55Z hajovonta: thanks for the explanation 2017-11-15T14:17:00Z beach: Sure. 2017-11-15T14:17:36Z hajovonta: maybe he doesn't understand English well in the first place 2017-11-15T14:17:52Z beach: That might be true. 2017-11-15T14:18:48Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:20:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:31:12Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:31:51Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-11-15T14:36:04Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-15T14:36:09Z mikecheck joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:36:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:36:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:37:35Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:40:27Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:40:44Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T14:40:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:41:16Z alpert joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:44:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:45:25Z himmAllRight quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T14:46:27Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:46:31Z python476 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:46:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:46:55Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:47:23Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-15T14:47:33Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:48:30Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-15T14:49:37Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:51:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:55:37Z cess11_ joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:56:35Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-11-15T14:57:56Z cess11 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:58:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-15T14:58:38Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:00:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:00:51Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T15:04:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:04:57Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-15T15:05:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T15:06:47Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-15T15:09:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-15T15:09:51Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T15:10:53Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:13:05Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T15:14:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:15:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:16:03Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:16:30Z fikka quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-15T15:16:50Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:17:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:17:06Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:17:22Z serviteur: Hie, I'm searching for a lib which generate html, what should I chose? PCL mention FOO, but I don't find it. I'm trying CL-WHO, but I have trouble making it works with allegro. Thanks! 2017-11-15T15:18:48Z pjb: serviteur: have a look at https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/quicklisp/common-lisp/html-generator 2017-11-15T15:19:12Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:19:20Z pjb: html-generators-in-lisp.txt lists a few other generators. 2017-11-15T15:19:38Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:19:59Z serviteur: there is a lot of them, I don't know what is recent or outdated 2017-11-15T15:19:59Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T15:21:15Z paule32: hi hajovonta 2017-11-15T15:21:16Z Shinmera: serviteur: How do you want to generate HTML? 2017-11-15T15:21:28Z pjb: I use https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/quicklisp/common-lisp/html-generator since it's the one I wrote, but anything in quicklisp would at least be compilable in sbcl. 2017-11-15T15:21:33Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-15T15:21:45Z paule32: hajovonta: thank you for the tip 2017-11-15T15:21:47Z pjb: There are reasons to write html as html! 2017-11-15T15:24:10Z hajovonta: Allegro has its own webserver, I guess they have some html generator built-in 2017-11-15T15:24:27Z hajovonta: but I'm unsure, it has been several years I last wrote anything with Allegro 2017-11-15T15:24:53Z serviteur: thanks 2017-11-15T15:25:12Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:26:29Z paule32: hajovonta: (defvar *application-id-controls* #'setup-controls) 2017-11-15T15:26:38Z paule32: this stands in the package 2017-11-15T15:27:10Z paule32: but when i try (*application-id-controls*) as function call 2017-11-15T15:27:26Z paule32: i ger: The function KALLUP::SETUP-CONTROLS is undefined. 2017-11-15T15:27:51Z hajovonta: paule32: try (funcall *application-id-controls*) 2017-11-15T15:27:57Z pjb: paule32: what tutorial do you read? 2017-11-15T15:27:57Z paule32: but in the main.lisp is the function setup-controls as defun 2017-11-15T15:28:21Z paule32: pjb: monkey 2017-11-15T15:28:25Z pjb: url? 2017-11-15T15:29:01Z paule32: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html 2017-11-15T15:29:02Z pjb: PCL is not really a tutorial, it's a book for programmers. 2017-11-15T15:29:36Z pjb: There's no funcall on that page. Why are you trying to store functions in variable and using funcall? 2017-11-15T15:29:57Z paule32: because the calling is: 2017-11-15T15:30:08Z paule32: 1. create Applicatioń object 2017-11-15T15:30:15Z paule32: 2. show mainwindow 2017-11-15T15:30:20Z paule32: 3. run application 2017-11-15T15:30:38Z pjb: I would advise either one of those short tutorials: https://franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/default/tree/doc/LISP-tutorial.txt 2017-11-15T15:30:40Z paule32: at 2. the user can add controls like pushbuttons ... 2017-11-15T15:31:09Z hajovonta: paule32: you can call the symbol's function slot as follows: (funcall *var*) 2017-11-15T15:31:26Z hajovonta: and you can store any function in the symbol *var* even at runtime 2017-11-15T15:31:26Z paule32: thank you 2017-11-15T15:31:49Z pjb: Then you want something like: http://sprunge.us/hIWB 2017-11-15T15:32:00Z Bike: paule32 has been doing this same shit for like a year. they either don't understand english well enough to get help from us or are communicating via some kind of malicious familiar spirit 2017-11-15T15:32:12Z pjb: Not any bullshit like (setf *var* #'setup-controls) (funcall *var*) ; this doesn't mean anything! 2017-11-15T15:32:21Z hajovonta: Bike :) 2017-11-15T15:32:30Z python476: who here works in lisp (CL or else) 2017-11-15T15:32:31Z pjb: I'm optimistic. 2017-11-15T15:32:36Z pjb: everybody! 2017-11-15T15:32:48Z paule32: pjb: yes, where show-main-window can be filled with instructions by user 2017-11-15T15:32:51Z pjb: and here in CL. If you want random lisps, try ##lisp 2017-11-15T15:32:52Z Shinmera: python476: You mean like professionally or what 2017-11-15T15:33:01Z hajovonta: my job doesn't require working in CL, but it's my personal choice, and I'm happy with it 2017-11-15T15:33:12Z pjb: paule32: indeed you would have to write the methods show-main-window and run yourself. 2017-11-15T15:33:15Z python476: Shinmera: yes, your paycheck depends on you typing CL code 2017-11-15T15:33:17Z beach: python476: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so pretty much everybody. 2017-11-15T15:33:42Z python476: could have been side projects or hobbies too 2017-11-15T15:33:45Z python476: but thanks 2017-11-15T15:33:54Z hajovonta: all of my side projects are CL 2017-11-15T15:34:00Z python476: I'm having my little old lisp moment, reading AMOP and CLHS 2017-11-15T15:34:01Z sjl: beach: I'd be surprised if everybody in here did CL for paying work. I, for example, unfortunately don't. 2017-11-15T15:34:08Z paule32: pjb: right, and the package should call the user function 2017-11-15T15:34:17Z hajovonta: CL keeps the spirit in me nowadays 2017-11-15T15:34:17Z python476: so unsurprisingly I wonder about CL jobs 2017-11-15T15:34:19Z beach: sjl: Yes, the "paid work" came too late for me to react. 2017-11-15T15:34:48Z sjl: maybe some day 2017-11-15T15:34:50Z sjl dreams 2017-11-15T15:34:54Z pjb: python476: try: https://www.ravenpack.com/careers/#positions 2017-11-15T15:35:00Z Shinmera: I've done some lisp work for money, but not currently. 2017-11-15T15:35:22Z python476: pjb: Im not pressed, just curious about people working in it so far (but thanks of course) 2017-11-15T15:35:34Z hajovonta: I feel CL will have a comeback, but not sure when 2017-11-15T15:35:39Z varjag: i have an ongoing project 100% in lisp 2017-11-15T15:36:08Z python476: hajovonta: wouldn't bet on this, too many languages have lisp bits in them nowadays, the difference would be insignificant for the market 2017-11-15T15:36:51Z hajovonta: oh, I don't mean the majority of programmers will be doing work in CL 2017-11-15T15:37:01Z python476: ok then 2017-11-15T15:37:06Z hajovonta: CL is too hard for the majority of programmers to learn 2017-11-15T15:37:20Z python476: it requires special desires 2017-11-15T15:37:34Z python476: but surely having sbcl performance and environment would please some 2017-11-15T15:37:58Z eudoxia: I wouldn't say CL is too hard for the average programmer to learn 2017-11-15T15:38:01Z varjag: doesn't have much to do with being hard to learn imo 2017-11-15T15:38:03Z python476: also, I realized recently that python can have some of CL metaprogramming abilities, so the people ready to go meta have something else to play 2017-11-15T15:38:11Z varjag: certainly not harder than rust or c++ or swit 2017-11-15T15:38:15Z varjag: swift 2017-11-15T15:38:30Z hajovonta: varjag: good point 2017-11-15T15:38:32Z eudoxia: certainly easier to learn than Rust 2017-11-15T15:38:55Z pjb: python is very bad, it distinguishes statements from expressions, and bends strongly toward statements. 2017-11-15T15:38:58Z python476: yeah rust is as peculiar if not more to the average programmer 2017-11-15T15:39:29Z python476: pjb: yes, but there are a lot of talks about using metaclasses to make programming sane 2017-11-15T15:39:32Z python476: this is rare enough to mention 2017-11-15T15:40:13Z mrottenkolber: you can get CL jobs! I don’t think many people choose jobs for the programming language though 2017-11-15T15:40:15Z python476: note that my nick is unrelated to my programming language preferences, it's an historical accident :D 2017-11-15T15:40:30Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:40:40Z jackdaniel: I thought it is after CMUCL compiler ,p 2017-11-15T15:40:46Z python476: mrottenkolber: I assumed that shops using CL had a different view on things too 2017-11-15T15:41:21Z hajovonta: if given enough time, every programming language's community start to feel the need to incorporate metaprogramming, and start to incorporate features into the language that makes it look more like lisp 2017-11-15T15:41:24Z python476: I just tried to do some Java and I immediately went back to lisp / clojure 2017-11-15T15:41:32Z beach: python476: I suggest you come to ELS2018. It will be in a place that has a company that uses Common Lisp, and there will be other companies there as well that hire Common Lisp programmers. 2017-11-15T15:41:52Z python476: where is it ? spain ? canada ? I forgot 2017-11-15T15:42:00Z python476: berlin 2017-11-15T15:42:03Z beach: Marbella, Spain. 2017-11-15T15:42:06Z mrottenkolber: python476: not even that, I only meant that for instance I like to work with networking / distributed / p2p so I work at the company that does an interesting project in these fields, not necessarily a lisp company. 2017-11-15T15:42:13Z python476: ha, first time the charm 2017-11-15T15:42:24Z python476: mrottenkolber: good point 2017-11-15T15:42:51Z python476: it's possible I'd come to els2018 2017-11-15T15:43:01Z mrottenkolber: els is always fun! 2017-11-15T15:43:10Z python476: mrottenkolber: is the coding environment fun ? 2017-11-15T15:43:23Z python476: or is the problem so interesting to you that it becomes a sidenote 2017-11-15T15:43:31Z mrottenkolber: coding environment? I never wrote a line of code at els^^ 2017-11-15T15:43:39Z python476: I meant at your job 2017-11-15T15:43:45Z python476: crossed-messages 2017-11-15T15:44:41Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T15:45:55Z mrottenkolber: python476: oh right, I think there are lots of fun languages out there (and I am currently not employed :D), you can make any environment heaven or hell, mostly depends on how much is invested into tooling. I strongly prefer good investments in tooling.^^ 2017-11-15T15:46:20Z mrottenkolber: but i.e. I currently code mostly with LuaJIT and its really fun! 2017-11-15T15:46:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:46:48Z mrottenkolber: I even went as far as implementing s-expressions and macros on top of Lua but I didn’t end up using it 2017-11-15T15:46:53Z python476: lol 2017-11-15T15:47:05Z mrottenkolber: because Lua is really a fine language, in itself 2017-11-15T15:47:15Z python476: when i did VBA/Excel, I started writing so sexp vba translation 2017-11-15T15:47:25Z python476: we just can't help it .. 2017-11-15T15:48:01Z python476: I have to say, only sml made me forget about sexps, syntax's so short 2017-11-15T15:48:12Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:49:57Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/vuzY5wGP 2017-11-15T15:50:06Z paule32: The function KALLUP::SETUP-CONTROLS is undefined 2017-11-15T15:53:12Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-15T15:54:09Z hajovonta: paule32: move the funcall line down under the function definition. 2017-11-15T15:54:20Z lrvy joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:54:27Z hajovonta: you are trying to call the function before it's defined. 2017-11-15T15:54:43Z pjb: paule32: your paste is incomplete. We cannot debug ... !!!! 2017-11-15T15:54:45Z lrvy quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-15T15:56:15Z _rumbler31: my side projects are in cl, and small utilities at work are in cl. I have a body of code I wrote to work on work specific data files, but I don't think that counts towards the spirit of "getting paid to write cl" 2017-11-15T15:56:41Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:57:21Z python476: _rumbler31: the core of your work is in what language ? 2017-11-15T15:57:47Z _rumbler31: c++ 2017-11-15T15:57:57Z _rumbler31: which becomes more obnoxious to write the more lisp I use 2017-11-15T15:58:22Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:59:17Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-11-15T15:59:21Z python476: c++ surely gets the title of the most dreaded language by far 2017-11-15T16:00:36Z rafadc joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:01:14Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:01:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:03:08Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-15T16:03:23Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:04:43Z paule32: pjb: https://github.com/paule32/LispAppQt 2017-11-15T16:04:49Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-15T16:05:20Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:05:51Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:06:28Z pjb: can't load, it's missing a asd file. 2017-11-15T16:07:06Z paule32: these are files, that install quicklisp? 2017-11-15T16:08:25Z pjb: (funcall #'setup-controls) is wrong it should be written (setup-controls) 2017-11-15T16:08:58Z _cosmonaut_1 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:09:05Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:09:17Z pjb: paule32: it's ok, there's a start.lisp file but it doesn't compile the library, and the makefile is wrong, it uses absolute paths to qt4. If I had it installed it would be in /opt/local on this MacOSX system… 2017-11-15T16:09:58Z mikecheck left #lisp 2017-11-15T16:10:02Z paule32: i know, the makefile is created by qmake - a tool from the Qt5 framework 2017-11-15T16:10:07Z pjb: paule32: type: grep -niHR -e setup * # in your LispAppQt directory. 2017-11-15T16:11:47Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:11:55Z hajovonta: pjb: (funcall #'setup-controls) works, but you have to define your function first 2017-11-15T16:12:11Z jstoddard joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:12:18Z pjb: (setup-controls) works even better, and you still have to define your function! 2017-11-15T16:12:49Z paule32: kallup/mymainwindow.cpp:7: ui->setupUi(this); 2017-11-15T16:12:49Z paule32: kallup.lisp:32:(funcall #'setup-controls) 2017-11-15T16:12:49Z paule32: kallup.lisp:47: (setq *application-id-window* (kallup-init-window)) (setup-controls) 2017-11-15T16:12:49Z paule32: start.lisp:4:(defun kallup::setup-controls() 2017-11-15T16:12:53Z hajovonta: he's trying to stuff a function into a variable and then change the function that is being called 2017-11-15T16:12:57Z hajovonta: but maybe not 2017-11-15T16:13:07Z pjb: paule32: but most importantly, when you write an application in lisp, you have to be careful not to things that are application related while loading or compiling your sources! 2017-11-15T16:13:26Z pjb: paule32: you want to create your window, or initialize your application when you LAUNCH the application, not when you compile or load your sources! 2017-11-15T16:13:50Z pjb: paule32: so read those grep lines, and tell me where is the definition of the function setup-controls! 2017-11-15T16:14:05Z pjb: We've told you already half a dozen time, that you need to define the functions you call! 2017-11-15T16:14:26Z hajovonta: in other words, the order of the lines you type into a program is important 2017-11-15T16:14:30Z hajovonta: :) 2017-11-15T16:15:12Z python476: paule32: are you a prolog developper by any chance ? :D 2017-11-15T16:15:36Z paule32: pjb: kallup.lisp is the package, i this is the code for a template application, or the core functions that could be call 2017-11-15T16:16:02Z pjb: hajovonta: the PRESENCE of the lines even more important! 2017-11-15T16:16:16Z paule32: pjb: setup-controls is in start.lisp 2017-11-15T16:16:27Z pjb: paule32: Nope. see grep output! 2017-11-15T16:16:52Z rocx quit (Quit: classes) 2017-11-15T16:16:58Z pjb: Ha, yes, sorry, you got it. 2017-11-15T16:17:13Z python476: funny I just saw a video about visual studio code collaborative debugging sessions 2017-11-15T16:17:14Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T16:17:29Z python476: irc debugging sessions will be a thing of teh past 2017-11-15T16:17:43Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:17:44Z hajovonta: will it? :) 2017-11-15T16:17:46Z pjb: paule32: so just don't call it when you load the file kallup.lisp! 2017-11-15T16:18:08Z python476: hajovonta: ;) 2017-11-15T16:18:20Z pjb: paule32: do you understand those two sentences: 2017-11-15T16:18:22Z pjb: paule32: but most importantly, when you write an application in lisp, you have to be careful not to things that are application related while loading or compiling your sources! 2017-11-15T16:18:23Z pjb: paule32: you want to create your window, or initialize your application when you LAUNCH the application, not when you compile or load your sources! 2017-11-15T16:18:23Z pjb: 2017-11-15T16:18:42Z paule32: python476: prolog? no, i know this fuzzi logic lang, but for me prolog is not a lang, more markup 2017-11-15T16:19:13Z paule32: pjb: 2017-11-15T16:19:32Z paule32: because setup-controls is a user funcall 2017-11-15T16:19:36Z paule32: yeah 2017-11-15T16:19:42Z paule32: you right 2017-11-15T16:20:09Z python476: paule32: I was joking because prolog is much less dependent on line order 2017-11-15T16:20:14Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:20:19Z python476: hajovonta: in case you're curious https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/11/15/live-share 2017-11-15T16:20:31Z paule32: but i think make-instance is the thing that brings the rock to roll 2017-11-15T16:21:09Z pjb: paule32: even (print (exec *myapp*)) (main) (sb-ext:quit) should not be in start.lisp, but in a function! (print (exec *myapp*)) should be in the function main. and quit should not be in files you load! 2017-11-15T16:21:11Z paule32: because make-instance calls the class and create an object 2017-11-15T16:21:26Z paule32: ah 2017-11-15T16:21:30Z paule32: sorry, yes 2017-11-15T16:21:46Z pjb: It would be better to rename start.lisp to loader.lisp 2017-11-15T16:22:12Z pjb: So you can (load "loader.lisp") and then debug (unit debugging), or call (main) to run the program. 2017-11-15T16:22:25Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:22:52Z hajovonta: python476: the problem is, this is a synchronous communication. They communicate it as an advantage, but it's only advantageous for those who are receiving support 2017-11-15T16:22:53Z paule32: start is a keyword? 2017-11-15T16:23:00Z pjb: Then you may have a script named generate.lisp that would be able to load the sources, and save an executable image, in which you would set up main as toplevel function. 2017-11-15T16:23:16Z python476: hajovonta: the guy said he was needing something synchronous 2017-11-15T16:23:18Z pjb: paule32: no, start is a verb that means that something is beginning. 2017-11-15T16:23:29Z pjb: But when you load lisp sources, you don't want to start anything! 2017-11-15T16:23:31Z python476: for async you can always file a bug, issue, question somewhere 2017-11-15T16:23:41Z paule32: ok 2017-11-15T16:23:44Z pjb: So don't name it start, name it loader since it's the script that will load your program. 2017-11-15T16:24:06Z paule32: i have to go for raport, came back in few minutes 2017-11-15T16:24:08Z paule32: sorry 2017-11-15T16:24:13Z paule32: i hold the line 2017-11-15T16:24:13Z pjb: bbl too 2017-11-15T16:24:23Z hajovonta: python476: not everybody likes synchronous communication. I personally don't like it 2017-11-15T16:24:39Z pjb: hajovonta: then use news:comp.lang.lisp 2017-11-15T16:25:15Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:25:23Z python476: hajovonta: ok 2017-11-15T16:25:40Z hajovonta: IRC is a medium where I can answer a few minutes later or even a few hours later 2017-11-15T16:25:41Z python476: hajovonta: for a company it seems like a pretty big time saver though 2017-11-15T16:25:54Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:26:15Z hajovonta: python476: for those who are giving support, it is also a big stress. 2017-11-15T16:26:28Z hajovonta: but I'm not saying it's useless. 2017-11-15T16:28:44Z th3m1s joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:30:09Z rafadc quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-11-15T16:30:11Z th3m1s quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-15T16:30:21Z python476: hajovonta: oh I see, in case of support, you prefer having your time to think to find the issue rather than having someone waiting in "front" of you ? 2017-11-15T16:31:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:32:19Z hajovonta: python476: or maybe I'm in something else, maybe I have 3 issues simultaneously, maybe I'm heading for lunch etc. 2017-11-15T16:32:29Z sysx1000 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:32:47Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:32:49Z python476: ok 2017-11-15T16:33:17Z hajovonta: also, I have to create a "context" in my head, and it needs time. (maybe I'm just too slow.) :) 2017-11-15T16:33:53Z hajovonta: but let's see how will people work with it 2017-11-15T16:35:15Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T16:35:26Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:35:48Z hajovonta: the other problem is, it ties people to a particular IDE. 2017-11-15T16:35:57Z python476: no kidding 2017-11-15T16:36:07Z python476: feature not a bug there 2017-11-15T16:36:16Z hajovonta: I would hesitate to give up my Emacs for some Visual Studio thing. :) 2017-11-15T16:36:57Z hajovonta: I would just respond to the request with something like "sorry I don't know what to do with your link" :) 2017-11-15T16:37:31Z python476: hajovonta: "install gnu emacs, thanks" 2017-11-15T16:38:08Z hajovonta: maybe somebody will do this very same thing for Emacs 2017-11-15T16:38:18Z hajovonta: now THAT would be something. 2017-11-15T16:39:08Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:39:28Z python476: usually emacs can absorb it, but this would require a large amount of design to make something versatile 2017-11-15T16:43:32Z hydan joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:44:54Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-15T16:45:16Z scymtym: i did a vaguely similar, very limited thing for emacs a few years ago: https://github.com/scymtym/rudel http://rudel.sourceforge.net/ . my frustration with emacs lisp (as it was at the time) and the lack of interest in such a thing lead me to abandon it 2017-11-15T16:46:12Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:46:23Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:50:06Z vzerda joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:52:14Z hajovonta: interesting 2017-11-15T16:52:29Z hajovonta: did it ever work? 2017-11-15T16:55:20Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-15T16:56:32Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T16:56:49Z rafadc joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:56:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:57:05Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T16:57:07Z rafadc quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-15T17:00:21Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:01:28Z scymtym: yes 2017-11-15T17:02:21Z scymtym: but, as always, some emacs modes were not compatible 2017-11-15T17:02:28Z python476: scymtym: I think I saw people using it for ICFP 2017-11-15T17:02:52Z turkja: Can someone verify this thing: if you load a regular linedit package with SBCL, then try to move around with C-left-arrow and C-right-arrow. In emacs this moves back and forth full words, it's in my spine, but for some reason linedit locks up keyboard input.. very easy to test if someone has a second or two 2017-11-15T17:02:55Z scymtym: python476: interesting 2017-11-15T17:02:55Z python476: i watched them work a problem in emacs/slime on a youtube feed 2017-11-15T17:03:22Z python476: if that wasnt rudel then it was something similar with a similar name .. which would be strange :D 2017-11-15T17:03:24Z turkja: this is a linux box, i tested with gnome-terminal + xterm, same thing 2017-11-15T17:03:32Z scymtym: we should drop the topic nevertheless since it is only tangentially common lisp related if at all 2017-11-15T17:03:37Z python476: ok 2017-11-15T17:08:01Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:15:50Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:16:04Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:16:30Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:17:53Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:18:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:19:08Z ksool joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:21:37Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:27:14Z aoeu256 joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:29:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:36:23Z aoeu256: does any body have any ideas what programming languages will look like 40 or 80 years from now? Like anybody have a system of Macros that simulates how LISP will look like when we have quantum computers to automatically code things for us, productivity beyond clojure. I remember there was a book OnLisp by Paul Graham where it was discussed. 2017-11-15T17:37:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:37:52Z Shinmera: I hope I'll be dead in 80 years so I don't have to worry about this kind of future prediction nonsense. 2017-11-15T17:42:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:42:13Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:43:13Z alpert joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:44:30Z hajovonta: hehehe lol 2017-11-15T17:44:50Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-11-15T17:46:17Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:47:45Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:47:49Z larsen: aoeu256: you probably mean http://www.paulgraham.com/hundred.html. I'd rather not dwelve in such a broad topic, but maybe you're interested in knowing that Larry Wall spoke in a similar way about Perl 6: "Don’t design everything you will need in the next 100 years, but design the ability to create things we will need in 20 or 100 years." Which in turns reminds me of "Growing a language", and so on and so forth 2017-11-15T17:48:05Z python476: aoeu256: cyborg slack filled with rant about neural network being too verbose 2017-11-15T17:48:29Z python476: this or humanity back to celtic lifestyle with druids and banquets 2017-11-15T17:48:46Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-11-15T17:49:54Z Shinmera: Can't wait to get my guts blown out by one of Mark Zuckerberg's super solidier androids. 2017-11-15T17:50:21Z python476: I never understand the idea of violent robots or aliens 2017-11-15T17:50:26Z Shinmera: Anyway, semi-serious answer: I don't even know what I'll be doing an hour from now. How people can hope to predict what the entire collective world will go through in 40 years is beyond me. 2017-11-15T17:50:32Z python476: why anything "superior" would pick violence 2017-11-15T17:50:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:51:12Z python476: Shinmera: also, every attempt at predicting above a decade ended up quite far from the truth 2017-11-15T17:51:50Z orivej_ quit (Quit: orivej_) 2017-11-15T17:51:54Z python476: rare exception: some documentary about first portable TV long ago said one day we may have pocket tvs and real time information flow so we never need to worry 2017-11-15T17:51:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T17:52:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:52:12Z python476: which is quite right on, except we never worried more than now 2017-11-15T17:53:13Z dim: http://mentalfloss.com/article/54343/12-predictions-isaac-asimov-made-about-2014-1964 is a classic counter-example of failures to predict the future 2017-11-15T17:54:25Z Shinmera: Hindsight is 20/20 2017-11-15T17:54:39Z jaccarmac joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:54:47Z eudoxia: nearly every item in that list has not come to pass 2017-11-15T17:55:03Z Shinmera: Also, if you make enough predictions, some of them are bound to be almost right 2017-11-15T17:55:55Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:56:28Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:56:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T17:57:17Z pjb: Shinmera: beware in 80 years you may be re-incarnated into a lowly programmer; you'd be rather happy if you had to program in lisp or better rather than java or worse. 2017-11-15T17:57:52Z Shinmera: Fortunately I don't believe in reincarnation, so I don't need to worry about that either. 2017-11-15T17:57:53Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T17:58:49Z pjb: Depends. There's one theory that says that you get what you believe in, and another that says you get reincarnation, or Jesus' paradise (or Satan's inferno). 2017-11-15T17:59:16Z pjb: Shinmera: think about the children! 2017-11-15T17:59:24Z Shinmera: The children can snuff it 2017-11-15T18:00:13Z Shinmera: Going back to Lisp, I wrote an article about Harmony today. If you're interested in sound processing in Lisp, it might be worth a look. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/358 2017-11-15T18:00:40Z pjb: Thanks. 2017-11-15T18:01:02Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T18:01:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T18:03:19Z alpert joined #lisp 2017-11-15T18:05:23Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-11-15T18:07:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T18:11:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-15T18:16:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T18:17:16Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T18:19:05Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-11-15T18:21:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-15T18:22:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-15T18:27:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-11-15T18:27:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-15T18:27:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-15T18:31:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T18:34:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-11-15T18:37:53Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T18:38:28Z _rumbler31: scymtym: my ICFP team used rudel once 2017-11-15T18:38:53Z _rumbler31: python476: that was probably my group 2017-11-15T18:39:27Z python476: _rumbler31: I remember a team of .. two 2017-11-15T18:39:32Z python476: it was something like a maze solver 2017-11-15T18:39:38Z aoeu256: hmm 2017-11-15T18:39:40Z python476: but my memories are very blurry 2017-11-15T18:39:56Z python476: as was the video 2017-11-15T18:40:30Z _rumbler31: we used it for the one where you were reverse engineering a small language and function set 2017-11-15T18:40:50Z _rumbler31: and i think we used it for one where the problem was "play hex tetris" with some extra gimmic 2017-11-15T18:41:22Z python476: oh ! 2017-11-15T18:41:29Z python476: oh that may be it 2017-11-15T18:41:41Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:41:41Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:41:41Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:41:43Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:41:46Z easye: Verified Custodianship of Minebox Intellectual Property 2017-11-15T18:41:49Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:41:52Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:41:54Z python476: I said maze but I was thinking of game + map 2017-11-15T18:41:55Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:41:58Z easye: 2017-11-15T18:42:01Z easye: