2017-10-01T00:02:20Z drmeister: We haven't profiled things in a while - Bike is working on type inference and inlining. I'm working on improving the generic function dispatch. The main problem we are dealing with is that the Cleavir compiler is slow, probably because it uses generic functions _a lot_ and Clasp's generic function dispatch and CLOS are slow. 2017-10-01T00:02:41Z drmeister: So development is slow because we end up waiting for the compiler a lot. 2017-10-01T00:02:51Z drmeister: I have funding - yes. 2017-10-01T00:03:10Z drmeister: So no clear answers - sorry - we are working towards them though. 2017-10-01T00:03:21Z drmeister: Implementing Common Lisp efficiently turns out to be hard. 2017-10-01T00:03:28Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T00:03:43Z drmeister: Especially when you constrain yourself to use llvm. 2017-10-01T00:07:20Z drmeister: Who knew? 2017-10-01T00:21:52Z zachk quit (Quit: zzzzZZZZzzzzz) 2017-10-01T00:22:06Z whoman` joined #lisp 2017-10-01T00:24:19Z Quasus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T00:26:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-01T00:26:41Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T00:34:37Z babalua quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T00:38:23Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T00:38:36Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-01T00:41:35Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T00:41:48Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-10-01T00:41:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T00:42:21Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-01T00:44:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-01T00:44:49Z whoman` is now known as whoman 2017-10-01T00:56:31Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T01:05:14Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-01T01:05:51Z WorldControl quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-01T01:08:51Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:14:12Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:17:36Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T01:22:33Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:24:53Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T01:25:27Z bigdaddytank quit (Quit: Peace out!) 2017-10-01T01:26:35Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T01:28:35Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:30:10Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:30:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:34:55Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T01:41:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:42:25Z drmeister: I fixed the problem that I was having compiling babel - it has a very long literal list of 22000 hexadecimal integers. The function that Clasp generates to build the list of literals was long in a way that llvm didn't like. It has some optimizations that don't scale well for long generated functions. 2017-10-01T01:42:55Z drmeister: Clasp chops the literal creation function up to work with llvm - but I wasn't chopping them up enough for lists like this. 2017-10-01T01:43:24Z drmeister: This is the fourth or fifth time I've run into this issue with llvm. 2017-10-01T01:43:54Z holycow: weird 2017-10-01T01:46:49Z drmeister: In hind sight it's perfectly reasonable. llvm is designed to compile C-style languages. C-style languages don't have initializers for heterogeneous data. 2017-10-01T01:47:13Z drmeister: If you have large constant arrays in C++ - they get put into an array of the appropriate type. 2017-10-01T01:47:40Z drmeister: In Common Lisp you can have very long lists of any kind of data '(:a 1.0 2 #\c ...) 2017-10-01T01:48:44Z drmeister: So for Common Lisp you have to generate very flexible code that can reconstruct this data at load time. If you naively put it in one function llvm will take forever to optimize it. 2017-10-01T01:50:21Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-10-01T01:55:31Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T01:59:08Z pjb: drmeister: implementations are allowed to store literals in bss instead of text. Can you do that with llvm? 2017-10-01T02:00:01Z pjb: ie. don't generate flexible code. Generate the data. 2017-10-01T02:01:54Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-01T02:04:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T02:06:42Z Bike: it's not possible in general, but it would probably be good for things like lists of fixnums 2017-10-01T02:06:53Z Bike: i don't know how it would work with the memory system though 2017-10-01T02:07:48Z pjb: Of course, it cannot be garbage collected. 2017-10-01T02:11:17Z pjb: the "in general" only comes from the fact that you can theorically insert non-fasl-serializable data into the literal : `(a #.(function foo) b) with foo being a closure. 2017-10-01T02:11:36Z pjb: But I would not call that in general. I would call that the special case. In general, it is possible. 2017-10-01T02:12:03Z Bike: well that's actually illegal, because functions can't be dumped, but that's the idea, yeah 2017-10-01T02:12:21Z pjb: it's not illegal. It's implementation dependent. 2017-10-01T02:12:30Z pjb: functions could be dumped. 2017-10-01T02:13:17Z Bike: it's not a conformant program, whatever 2017-10-01T02:17:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T02:17:22Z drmeister: pjb: It seemed easier to generate code to generate the objects at startup than to generate data and lay it out in memory in a way that would be identical to what the C++ constructors generate. 2017-10-01T02:18:31Z drmeister: In the future we are planning to use the MPS garbage collector to compact and park the objects in memory in a way that they can be written out and then loaded back into memory. 2017-10-01T02:20:19Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-01T02:30:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T02:30:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T02:31:26Z hel-io_ quit 2017-10-01T02:32:03Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T02:34:59Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T02:36:30Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T02:36:54Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T02:40:30Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T02:40:54Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-01T02:40:54Z Bicyclidine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T02:41:42Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-01T02:43:17Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T02:45:10Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-01T02:55:52Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-01T03:00:02Z theemacsshibe[m] left #lisp 2017-10-01T03:02:27Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-01T03:10:58Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T03:12:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-01T03:15:31Z Fare: good night beach! 2017-10-01T03:21:26Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:25:05Z z3t0 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T03:25:22Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:25:51Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-01T03:26:23Z DingoSaar quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T03:29:35Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T03:30:48Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:35:25Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T03:36:54Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:45:01Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T03:47:11Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:51:05Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:56:57Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:58:03Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-01T03:58:26Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:02:50Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T04:03:37Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:05:59Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-01T04:06:03Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T04:06:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:08:30Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T04:09:38Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:10:59Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:13:02Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:13:54Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:14:30Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T04:15:05Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:20:02Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:21:18Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:24:05Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:30:34Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:30:44Z jmercouris: is this guy: https://stackoverflow.com/users/69545/rainer-joswig on irc? 2017-10-01T04:30:49Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:34:00Z beach: Sometimes. 2017-10-01T04:34:05Z beach: His nick is lispm. 2017-10-01T04:34:21Z jmercouris: beach: I see, also seems to be his website 2017-10-01T04:35:11Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:35:12Z marvin2 quit 2017-10-01T04:35:35Z beach: He has got some interesting videos on YouTube about using Genera. 2017-10-01T04:46:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:47:35Z beach: This one for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiga_ltFi_k&t=370s 2017-10-01T04:48:52Z beach: We have come a long way in our attempt to reproduce this interface with McCLIM and the CLIM listener. And we are working to get even closer. 2017-10-01T04:50:22Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T04:54:57Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T04:55:43Z jmercouris: beach: very strange interface 2017-10-01T04:55:54Z jmercouris: i have no idea what keybinds he is pressing so it's hard for me to really understand what's going on 2017-10-01T04:56:45Z jmercouris: so this is a CL implementation of emacs? 2017-10-01T04:56:48Z beach: It looks old by today's standards, of course, because it is. But no OS has come close to the integration of the tools since Genera. 2017-10-01T04:56:58Z beach: It is an operating system. 2017-10-01T04:57:00Z beach: Genera. 2017-10-01T04:57:02Z jmercouris: aha I see 2017-10-01T04:57:15Z jmercouris: so you want to implement the GUI parts of it? 2017-10-01T04:57:38Z jmercouris: or what exactly? I don't see what is so novel about this interface 2017-10-01T04:58:00Z beach: Yeah, that movie is just the basic stuff. 2017-10-01T04:58:09Z beach: He has other movies, but they have no sound. 2017-10-01T04:58:35Z beach: What is good about it is the integration between different tools. 2017-10-01T04:59:17Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_(operating_system) 2017-10-01T04:59:24Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:01:02Z jmercouris: one thing that's always confused me is 2017-10-01T05:01:10Z jmercouris: a lisp machine, ultimately is running assembly right? 2017-10-01T05:01:23Z jmercouris: surely the lisp doesn't compile directly to binary right? 2017-10-01T05:01:36Z jmercouris: why don't we call other machines like "C" machines? or? 2017-10-01T05:01:37Z beach: Well, no. Hardware runs the machine language. Not assembly. 2017-10-01T05:01:53Z beach: The Lisp machine had an instruction set adapted to Lisp. 2017-10-01T05:02:12Z jmercouris: so the processors had a set of native support for functions that enabled lisp basically? 2017-10-01T05:02:16Z beach: Modern architectures are basically C machines. 2017-10-01T05:02:44Z jmercouris: so there's nothing computationally unique about a lisp machine, it could have run C as well, no problem right? i mean they are both turing complete 2017-10-01T05:02:49Z Fade: C is von neuman assembler. :) 2017-10-01T05:02:51Z beach: Yes, it had support for dynamic object typing and such. 2017-10-01T05:03:04Z beach: jmercouris: Correct. 2017-10-01T05:03:24Z beach: jmercouris: There was an implementation of C for Genera. 2017-10-01T05:04:44Z beach: jmercouris: At the time, processors were too slow and compilation techniques for Lisp not so well developed, so in order to get very good speed, they found it advantageous to create specific hardware. 2017-10-01T05:05:23Z beach: jmercouris: Nowadays, we have faster processors and better compiler techniques, so we can do a very good job of compiling Lisp to (say) x86-64. 2017-10-01T05:06:20Z beach: jmercouris: Furthermore, today it is totally impractical to design specific hardware. Existing processors are so much faster and so much less expensive than what specific hardware would be. 2017-10-01T05:09:06Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:11:42Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:16:15Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T05:17:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:17:39Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T05:17:51Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:18:11Z Xal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-01T05:18:48Z jmercouris: beach: makes sense, interesting 2017-10-01T05:18:55Z jmercouris: thank you for the explanation 2017-10-01T05:20:18Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:22:43Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T05:24:02Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-01T05:24:03Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T05:24:57Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:29:27Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T05:30:07Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T05:30:40Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-01T05:31:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:31:56Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:35:01Z hotbobby joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:36:05Z hotbobby: how would i express the statement if(test1 == 1 and test2 == 1){...}; 2017-10-01T05:36:12Z Fade: I wonder if anybody has generated a macivory cpu in an fpga. 2017-10-01T05:36:19Z hotbobby: like how do you have more than one condition inside a cond statement? 2017-10-01T05:37:23Z Fade: (if (and (= test 1) (= test2 1)) something something-else) 2017-10-01T05:37:42Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:38:43Z hotbobby: (and . . ) was the secret all along 2017-10-01T05:38:45Z hotbobby: thank you very much 2017-10-01T05:39:11Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T05:39:14Z Fade: practical common lisp is a good source for fundamental stuff. 2017-10-01T05:39:59Z beach: minion: Please tell hotbobby about PCL. 2017-10-01T05:39:59Z minion: hotbobby: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2017-10-01T05:40:48Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-01T05:41:41Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:43:35Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:46:02Z saki quit (Quit: saki) 2017-10-01T05:46:14Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T05:47:25Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:51:57Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T05:55:36Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-01T05:59:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T06:00:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:00:41Z turkja: Found this: https://loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html - have anyone tried it? 2017-10-01T06:01:05Z turkja: Looks like way-over-engineered emacs :D 2017-10-01T06:02:52Z beach: turkja: Like I said, it looks old by modern standards. But it is way more than Emacs. It is a complete operating system. 2017-10-01T06:04:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T06:04:27Z beach: turkja: People might be reluctant to admitting to having tried it, simply because Genera is proprietary software, so unless they have bought a license for it, it is illegal to install and run it. 2017-10-01T06:05:27Z Fade: there's at least one video on youtube of somebody bringing up genera on an amd64 host running linux. 2017-10-01T06:08:16Z turkja: yeah, i didn't want to try it out... but i bet you don't get viruses on that. ultimate security through obscurity :) 2017-10-01T06:09:08Z edgar-rft: lisp *is* like a virus :-) 2017-10-01T06:09:19Z turkja: in a way yes :D 2017-10-01T06:09:34Z beach: On the other hand, if people do want to give you a virus on Genera, it is easy, because the system had no protection. 2017-10-01T06:09:56Z beach: This is why we need a modern multi-user LispOS. 2017-10-01T06:10:02Z turkja: i 2017-10-01T06:10:08Z turkja: d love to use one 2017-10-01T06:10:21Z beach: First, it has to be written. 2017-10-01T06:13:54Z Fade: there's mezzano, which is pretty impressive for a one man project. 2017-10-01T06:14:29Z beach: Very impressive. 2017-10-01T06:19:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:19:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T06:20:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:20:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T06:20:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:21:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T06:21:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:22:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T06:22:16Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:22:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:22:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T06:27:39Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-01T06:29:13Z stylewarning: I would love to research designs for a multi-user Lisp OS 2017-10-01T06:29:56Z stylewarning: Or even single user but multi-process (in the modern sense) with facilities for data sharing. I just went through a huge exercise getting shared memory to work. 2017-10-01T06:30:00Z beach: Do you know about this document: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf ? 2017-10-01T06:30:39Z stylewarning: Nope. I’ll look now! 2017-10-01T06:30:58Z beach: It is no longer very short, I am afraid. 2017-10-01T06:31:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:33:28Z turkja quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T06:33:57Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:35:31Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T06:38:43Z Fade: well, that's me. have a good night, folks. 2017-10-01T06:38:53Z beach: Sleep well. 2017-10-01T06:38:59Z Fade: 2017-10-01T06:39:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-01T06:39:02Z stylewarning: beach, you’ve not convinced me that virtual address spaces wouldn’t be more useful than a global space with tagged pointers. 2017-10-01T06:39:16Z beach: Of course. 2017-10-01T06:39:49Z stylewarning: Just from a pure data perspective, managing permissions of pages or ranges of pages of data is a bit more manageable than pointers 2017-10-01T06:41:02Z beach: By "Of course", I meant "Of course I haven't convinced you. Not many people are convinced". 2017-10-01T06:41:11Z stylewarning: I know 2017-10-01T06:41:39Z beach: But that's research for you. Most people aren't convinced. 2017-10-01T06:42:03Z stylewarning: Private heaps by default with an API to publish objects to the kernel for perusal by other processes seems worthwhile to investigate 2017-10-01T06:42:31Z beach: Good luck with the investigation. 2017-10-01T06:42:46Z stylewarning: I’m forced to investigate it now :( 2017-10-01T06:42:56Z beach: Excellent! 2017-10-01T06:43:54Z stylewarning: Because I have to not move around >1 GB of data in my current applications which run in separate UNIX processes but nonetheless are bonafide Lisp objects 2017-10-01T06:44:10Z stylewarning: I just wish the kernel understood Lisp so it could garbage collect these shared resources :) 2017-10-01T06:46:42Z beach: I am sure that one day you will tell me the relation between your desire for separate virtual address spaces and the requirements for you current application. 2017-10-01T06:49:51Z stylewarning: I hope I get more clarity in whichever direction (virtual address spaces are great vs not great). I might be experiencing UNIX Stockholm syndrome. 2017-10-01T06:51:08Z stylewarning: beach does the state of the art in concurrent GC require any notion of separate heaps? 2017-10-01T06:51:08Z beach: That's entirely possible. 2017-10-01T06:51:29Z beach: I don't think so, no. 2017-10-01T06:52:05Z beach: This one might be of interest: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1134023 2017-10-01T06:53:14Z beach: But I look forward to reading your analysis and design. 2017-10-01T07:04:25Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:07:29Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:08:45Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T07:14:10Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:17:29Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-01T07:17:42Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:22:09Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T07:24:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:27:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:27:48Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:31:15Z Xal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-01T07:32:23Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:33:03Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:34:00Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:38:09Z saki quit (Quit: saki) 2017-10-01T07:38:16Z turkja left #lisp 2017-10-01T07:38:21Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T07:41:09Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T07:41:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:48:23Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:49:42Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T07:54:21Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T07:58:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T07:59:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:01:37Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:02:05Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:03:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T08:11:27Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:12:55Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:16:16Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T08:17:33Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T08:21:22Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T08:25:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:30:23Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:42:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-01T08:49:01Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T08:49:04Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:52:58Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T08:53:20Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-01T08:57:18Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-01T09:06:49Z zuo-ty-buo is now known as antoszka 2017-10-01T09:08:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:10:54Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T09:12:12Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:14:35Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T09:16:43Z phoe: and so CL-LZMA gains a linux32 .so file 2017-10-01T09:17:27Z phoe: in a moment it'll also have win32 and win64 .dll files and it will be suitable for Quicklisp upload. 2017-10-01T09:18:57Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:19:58Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T09:20:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:22:39Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T09:23:09Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T09:24:51Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:24:52Z tessier joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:24:52Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-10-01T09:24:52Z tessier joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:30:05Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:32:46Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T09:33:21Z p_l: beach: btw, have you looked at AS/400 memory model (in fact, did I talk about it with you?) I think it was based around "flat common memory space" ultimately, or at least to some extent (it has all storage - RAM and disks, mapped into memory as the method of access) 2017-10-01T09:34:55Z beach: p_l: Yes, I remember we talked about it. I think you pointed me to some documentation as well, but I have been too busy to read it. That's definitely something to look into. 2017-10-01T09:37:23Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:38:29Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-01T09:41:39Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T09:50:18Z kenanb joined #lisp 2017-10-01T09:50:56Z kenanb: I started blogging about lisp, and game development content. how can I apply for planet lisp? 2017-10-01T09:52:22Z kenanb: http://blog.6x13.com/ this is the address, and this is my first lisp post: http://blog.6x13.com/ 2017-10-01T09:53:17Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-01T09:54:42Z Shinmera: Ask Xach 2017-10-01T09:56:21Z beach: kenanb: Is it Common Lisp or Emacs Lisp? 2017-10-01T09:57:02Z Shinmera: kenanb: Make sure your blog has an RSS/Atom feed that filters to only Lisp entries. 2017-10-01T09:57:21Z Shinmera: A lot I see on there is not Lisp content. 2017-10-01T10:00:27Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:00:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:02:18Z kenanb: beach: common lisp 2017-10-01T10:02:38Z beach: OK. 2017-10-01T10:02:40Z kenanb: Shinmera: ah, I see, yeah 2017-10-01T10:04:46Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:13:06Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:13:26Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:15:58Z kenanb left #lisp 2017-10-01T10:17:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:20:04Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:22:18Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:22:55Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:26:06Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:39:34Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:40:08Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:40:25Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:40:30Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:41:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:43:11Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:44:31Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:46:15Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-01T10:47:49Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-10-01T10:49:34Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:54:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T10:54:53Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:07:39Z carleos joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:07:56Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-01T11:13:25Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:15:18Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:20:29Z les quit (Quit: "") 2017-10-01T11:20:45Z les joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:23:48Z phoe: Have I found some kind of bug in CFFI? http://paste.lisp.org/display/357384 2017-10-01T11:24:03Z phoe: This is on CCL, I try to load a foreign library. 2017-10-01T11:24:17Z phoe: And not only something goes wrong while loading it, but also something goes wrong while printing the error. 2017-10-01T11:24:58Z carleos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T11:28:01Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:33:31Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T11:38:23Z |3b|: phoe: can you figure out where that REPORT-SIMPLE-ERROR is defined? 2017-10-01T11:38:36Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-01T11:39:26Z phoe: yes, let me check it. 2017-10-01T11:39:44Z phoe: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/07d5940c869072f2e91444bacb9683bc300243e2/src/libraries.lisp#L304 2017-10-01T11:41:20Z phoe: but wait, this calls FL-ERROR which on L289 creates a condition LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR which is a subtype of SIMPLE-ERROR 2017-10-01T11:41:30Z phoe: therefore, wat 2017-10-01T11:42:15Z |3b|: does frame 2 (funcall ...) have a source location? 2017-10-01T11:42:34Z |3b|: also, can you inspect the type error in the backtrace? 2017-10-01T11:43:22Z phoe: Hold on, I've been doing this from console. 2017-10-01T11:43:27Z phoe: Let me fire up a proper slime. 2017-10-01T11:43:59Z |3b|: i think the error is when it is evaluating the arguments to fl-error, not after it is called 2017-10-01T11:44:56Z phoe: hahah! 2017-10-01T11:45:03Z phoe: the value #P"..." is not of type SEQUENCE 2017-10-01T11:45:10Z |3b|: yeah, looks like cffi bug, it catches ERROR but calls simple-condition-* on it 2017-10-01T11:45:31Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357384#2 2017-10-01T11:45:54Z |3b|: and error is a serious-condition not a simple-condition 2017-10-01T11:46:22Z phoe: the printing error is one thing 2017-10-01T11:46:32Z phoe: why CFFI only accepts SEQUENCE and not a pathname? 2017-10-01T11:46:55Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357384#2 2017-10-01T11:47:23Z |3b|: yeah, no idea about that part :) 2017-10-01T11:48:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:50:03Z phoe: well then, https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1720626 2017-10-01T11:50:52Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/blob/master/cl-lzma.lisp#L16 <- this is how I define the foreign library. 2017-10-01T11:51:04Z phoe: I will try doing namestrings there instead of pathnames just to be double sure. 2017-10-01T11:54:53Z phoe: haha, yes! 2017-10-01T11:54:59Z phoe: it works with namestrings on CCL and not with pathnames. 2017-10-01T11:55:45Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T11:56:44Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:03:23Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:04:56Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:05:52Z phoe: good. CL-LZMA works on SBCL and CCL on Windows and Linux on 32 and 64 bits. 2017-10-01T12:08:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:08:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:09:16Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:13:54Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T12:13:59Z phoe: Time to submit it to Quicklisp. 2017-10-01T12:21:12Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:21:41Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T12:22:40Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:23:42Z phoe: What should I use for parsing argc/argv? https://github.com/fare/command-line-arguments ? 2017-10-01T12:25:10Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:27:58Z jackdaniel: net.didierverna.clon 2017-10-01T12:28:04Z jackdaniel: for elaborate cli interface 2017-10-01T12:29:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:36:30Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T12:42:18Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:44:14Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:49:03Z phoe: (incf jackdaniel) 2017-10-01T12:52:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T12:58:00Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T12:58:07Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:58:18Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-01T12:59:12Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-01T12:59:44Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:01:54Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T13:02:43Z phoe: "Depending on the target audience, Clon stands for either “The Command-Line Options Nuker” or “The Common Lisp Options Nuker”. Clon also has a recursive acronym: “Clon Likes Options Nuking”, and a reverse one: “Never Omit to Link with Clon”. Other possible expansions of the acronym are still being investigated." 2017-10-01T13:02:52Z phoe: I already like this library. 2017-10-01T13:03:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:09:18Z pmetzger quit 2017-10-01T13:09:21Z karswell_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T13:09:59Z phoe: This library is both amazing and terrifying. 2017-10-01T13:10:12Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:15:05Z bigos_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:15:23Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:16:22Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:18:48Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:20:09Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:20:30Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T13:22:00Z phoe: I will need something that works in a Windows terminal though. 2017-10-01T13:22:04Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T13:22:21Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T13:22:29Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:23:34Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T13:24:18Z pjb: phoe: you mean, something that will read the arguments from *standard-input*? 2017-10-01T13:24:35Z phoe: pjb: nope. I want to be able to run an application by means of 2017-10-01T13:24:49Z pjb: And what relationship with CLON? 2017-10-01T13:24:54Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:24:58Z phoe: C:\> lisp-program.exe -foo bar -baz 1023 -quux "C:\fred.txt" 2017-10-01T13:25:04Z pjb: So? 2017-10-01T13:25:29Z phoe: My original problem is, I want a portable interface for argc/argv like above. 2017-10-01T13:25:45Z pjb: So you want a POSIX system? 2017-10-01T13:25:56Z pjb: Is MS-Windows a POSIX system? 2017-10-01T13:26:08Z phoe: No, Windows is not a POSIX system. 2017-10-01T13:26:47Z phoe: I want to be able to run lisp-program.exe and, inside my code, have a cross-implementation mechanism for retrieving the command line arguments. 2017-10-01T13:26:51Z pjb: I feel your problem is ill-posed. 2017-10-01T13:27:17Z pjb: What prevents you to run lisp-program.exe in a Windows terminal? 2017-10-01T13:27:29Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:27:29Z hel-io quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T13:28:02Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-01T13:28:14Z phoe: I don't think anything does, but CLON claims to only support Windows by means of cygwin and/or msys/mingw. 2017-10-01T13:28:26Z phoe: So I'm puzzled about Windows's cmd.exe. 2017-10-01T13:28:31Z pjb: Oh, it's a low level library? 2017-10-01T13:28:59Z pjb: I would have expected an command-line argument processing library to work on arbitrary lists of strings, independently of any implementation… 2017-10-01T13:29:05Z pjb: Sounds like a bad library… 2017-10-01T13:30:05Z phoe: Either that, or nobody cared to test it in a pure Microsoft ecosystem. 2017-10-01T13:30:17Z phoe: Well, sounds like I'll give it a try. 2017-10-01T13:31:54Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T13:34:13Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:37:02Z bigos_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T13:37:18Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:41:43Z phoe: Windows/CCL problems there. I'll go with Fare's command-line-arguments instead. 2017-10-01T13:48:00Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T13:53:00Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T13:53:13Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-01T13:55:10Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:01:27Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:04:21Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:04:37Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:06:22Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:08:47Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-01T14:12:51Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:13:14Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:15:09Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-01T14:15:47Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:19:03Z hel-io_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T14:19:39Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:23:41Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:24:10Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:27:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:27:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:28:54Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:29:12Z yaocl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T14:39:21Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:39:31Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:39:42Z midre joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:39:54Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:40:11Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:42:00Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:43:15Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T14:43:45Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:44:04Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T14:45:40Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:48:44Z phoe: XachX: your website is down, NXDOMAIN. 2017-10-01T14:52:48Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:54:28Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T14:54:37Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-01T14:58:09Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:58:23Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-01T14:59:10Z grumble quit (Quit: me) 2017-10-01T15:00:22Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T15:01:06Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:01:17Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-01T15:03:10Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T15:03:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:07:13Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:07:27Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:07:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:09:20Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:09:20Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T15:11:14Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:16:03Z Xach: phoe: tack 2017-10-01T15:17:46Z beach: Not to be confused with "tak". 2017-10-01T15:22:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:25:55Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:26:23Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-01T15:29:14Z phoe: Damn, I'm lost. Why do I get CFFI memory faults only after I dump an image? 2017-10-01T15:32:00Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:32:30Z phoe: I think I know why... Let me check. 2017-10-01T15:33:58Z |3b|: using pointers from previous image? 2017-10-01T15:34:07Z |3b|: or using a lib that needs initialized before use? 2017-10-01T15:34:39Z beach: ASLR? 2017-10-01T15:34:45Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:35:11Z |3b| thinks at least sbcl tries to turn off aslr 2017-10-01T15:35:25Z beach: Good for SBCL. 2017-10-01T15:35:37Z beach: But phoe may be using some other implementation. 2017-10-01T15:36:00Z |3b|: true, ccl was mentioned earlier 2017-10-01T15:36:47Z phoe: sounds like using pointers from previous image, but I'm puzzled - I close the foreign library before dumping the image, and reopen it as the first thing... 2017-10-01T15:36:50Z phoe: SBCL. 2017-10-01T15:37:16Z phoe: But maybe I am screwing something up in the UIOP's order. Let me investigate again. 2017-10-01T15:39:03Z phoe: I close the library in a function in *IMAGE-DUMP-HOOK*. I open the library again in a function in *IMAGE-PRELUDE*. 2017-10-01T15:39:12Z phoe: These symbols are from package UIOP/IMAGE. 2017-10-01T15:40:16Z |3b|: is this still cl-lzma? 2017-10-01T15:40:35Z |3b|: (or code otherwise visible anywhere?) 2017-10-01T15:41:00Z phoe: Let me quickly upload it somewhere. 2017-10-01T15:41:02Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:41:19Z phoe: CL-LZMA is working, it's in code that tries to use CL-LZMA and its foreign libraries. 2017-10-01T15:41:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:41:56Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357401 2017-10-01T15:41:58Z |3b|: do the callbacks in cl-lzma get reset on load? 2017-10-01T15:42:02Z phoe: This code is ugly like holy hell. 2017-10-01T15:42:09Z phoe: ...no, they are not. 2017-10-01T15:42:49Z phoe: I need to fix this. 2017-10-01T15:43:14Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:45:07Z |3b|: are those dll/so the actual lzma libs and not a wrapper? 2017-10-01T15:46:21Z phoe: |3b|: <3 2017-10-01T15:46:29Z phoe: This was the culprit, thank you. 2017-10-01T15:46:43Z phoe: Yes, LZMA libs are foreign. 2017-10-01T15:47:08Z |3b|: might be nice to try system libs first, if they don't break the API every version 2017-10-01T15:47:10Z phoe: They're built from the C source of the original LZMA SDK, modified a little bit - the original makefile produces an executable binary, where I wanted a shared object. 2017-10-01T15:47:38Z phoe: I actually wanted to do that, but the interface is completely different between the original LZMA SDK from Pavlov and the liblzma provided in linux systems. 2017-10-01T15:48:04Z |3b|: ah :( 2017-10-01T15:48:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:49:17Z phoe: And I don't feel competent enough in liblzma's C interface to navigate it and write a wrapper for that. 2017-10-01T15:49:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:49:49Z phoe: A friend of mine linked a C code example for using Pavlov's SDK - I translated that into CFFI, at the cost of needing to carry my own DLLs. 2017-10-01T15:50:29Z Shinmera: phoe: Also consider using https://shinmera.github.io/deploy/ 2017-10-01T15:51:14Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T15:51:31Z phoe: Shinmera: oh yes exactly that! 2017-10-01T15:51:50Z phoe: I used this in my other Qtools-based project, good to see it being an external library now. 2017-10-01T15:52:20Z Shinmera: It's also better than what Qtools had, fwiw 2017-10-01T15:57:22Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-01T15:59:55Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:01:36Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:03:04Z Xal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-01T16:05:17Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:05:20Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:08:43Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-01T16:11:55Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T16:23:00Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:28:48Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:36:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T16:36:14Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T16:41:54Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:42:42Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:44:00Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:45:33Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:47:14Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:48:21Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T16:51:25Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:52:12Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T16:53:06Z jack_rabbit quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-01T16:53:18Z z3t0 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T16:55:57Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:57:27Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T16:59:03Z hel-io_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:01:37Z kozy quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-01T17:03:18Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:12:13Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:14:21Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:20:39Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T17:21:37Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:22:37Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:23:17Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:24:01Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T17:25:11Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:26:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:27:29Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:27:58Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:28:19Z phf joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:29:37Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:30:07Z phf: hello, i remember on planet lisp (it probably was Xach's post, but i can't seem to find it) there was a link to someone's github dump of personal lisp code. it was essentially a folder of hacks, all of them targeting cmucl, of various quality. i remember there was plotting code, that, i think, spit out postscript, etc. does anybody remember the link? 2017-10-01T17:37:08Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:37:32Z _death: https://github.com/rtoy/cmucl/blob/f810fc97740f2bd1405247fcc2dc56a0b00be8d7/src/contrib/psgraph/psgraph.lisp ? 2017-10-01T17:38:28Z hel-io__ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:40:02Z phf: _death: well, that certainly covers a detail of the question :) no, it was folder of hacks, released by some oldtimer "i've been using these here lisp codes for the past 20 years". he also had a plot function 2017-10-01T17:40:03Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:40:40Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:41:11Z _death: ah.. maybe I know it, but it's not github 2017-10-01T17:41:23Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:42:27Z hel-io_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:43:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:44:21Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:44:54Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:47:36Z _death: nevermind, I was thinking of https://bitbucket.org/dfmorrison/roan (you said 20 years, I was thinking "old stuff".. I like that 1975-2017 copyright) but it's not it 2017-10-01T17:47:46Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:47:51Z hel-io__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:48:25Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:51:46Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:52:21Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:53:26Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:55:12Z turkja quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-01T17:56:21Z hel-io_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:56:46Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T17:57:40Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-01T17:58:32Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T17:59:58Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:00:06Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-01T18:00:37Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:00:44Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T18:01:21Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:01:48Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T18:02:15Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:03:14Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:08:03Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:08:20Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:11:53Z hel-io_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:12:40Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:14:23Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:14:47Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:15:35Z slyrus quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-01T18:16:18Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:16:38Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:18:38Z phf: _death: i found it, https://github.com/dbmcclain?tab=repositories but i guess i misremember it, it's not all cmucl. (but it's certainly code by someone who writes CMU CL) 2017-10-01T18:19:27Z phf: via https://xach.livejournal.com/315943.html 2017-10-01T18:20:15Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:23:27Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:24:13Z _death: nice 2017-10-01T18:24:30Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:27:37Z phf: ta 2017-10-01T18:27:37Z shrdlu68: Xach: Not sure if this matters: it appears there are no checks for the maximum content-length in quicklisp/http.lisp 2017-10-01T18:27:42Z phf left #lisp 2017-10-01T18:27:54Z hel-io_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:28:53Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:30:31Z XachX: shrdlu68: what should the max be? 2017-10-01T18:32:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:32:38Z shrdlu68: XachX: The spec does not say, but probably something that will prevent the process from taking up too much memory if someone sends a preposterous length. Again, I'm not sure it matters. 2017-10-01T18:32:38Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T18:33:02Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:33:09Z XachX: shrdlu68: oh, it does not save it in memory. 2017-10-01T18:33:17Z XachX: But it would be bad to fill the disk 2017-10-01T18:34:04Z shrdlu68: XachX: What about for the individual headers? Are those being checked to prevent them from growing unbounded? 2017-10-01T18:34:25Z XachX: shrdlu68: hmm, no 2017-10-01T18:34:30Z XachX: Good point 2017-10-01T18:35:31Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:39:10Z shka quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-01T18:39:31Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:40:59Z rjid joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:42:02Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T18:42:28Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:44:58Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-01T18:45:42Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-01T18:47:15Z Xal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-01T18:48:06Z shrdlu68: Same things appears in drakma, it uses chunga's #'read-line, which simply reads until eof or CRLF. 2017-10-01T18:49:32Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:49:39Z shka quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-01T18:50:02Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-01T18:51:54Z shrdlu68: s/#'read-line/#'read-line* 2017-10-01T18:52:24Z shrdlu68: Probably hunchtoot too, from skimming through the code. 2017-10-01T18:54:54Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T18:57:49Z shrdlu68: ...and dexador. 2017-10-01T19:00:09Z Shinmera: What would a server gain by sending you a huge header? 2017-10-01T19:00:22Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:00:26Z Shinmera: Like, even if we assume it's malicious 2017-10-01T19:02:51Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:03:01Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T19:04:10Z hel-io_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T19:04:29Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: DOS. But it's likely inconsequential in most cases. 2017-10-01T19:04:44Z Shinmera: Huh? 2017-10-01T19:04:53Z Shinmera: This is an HTTP client we're talking about here, yeah? 2017-10-01T19:04:56Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:05:40Z Shinmera: The client isn't magically going to open up new connections, so what would you DOS? 2017-10-01T19:06:22Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: In the case of hunchentoot, a server as well. 2017-10-01T19:06:32Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T19:06:53Z Shinmera: Hunchentoot has other problems already anyway (like using interning for headers/post/get vars) 2017-10-01T19:06:57Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:07:10Z shrdlu68: Oh dear. 2017-10-01T19:07:29Z shrdlu68: Meh! Doesn't matter, right? 2017-10-01T19:08:50Z Shinmera: Well, depends on how pragmatic and/or paranoid you are. 2017-10-01T19:08:52Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T19:09:10Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-01T19:12:36Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-01T19:12:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-01T19:12:47Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:13:19Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T19:13:30Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:14:07Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T19:14:17Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:14:48Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:14:55Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T19:15:06Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:15:43Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T19:15:54Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:16:31Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T19:19:38Z knobo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T19:19:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:19:43Z fluxit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T19:22:48Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T19:27:37Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T19:29:39Z toy_m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T19:30:27Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:30:44Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:32:30Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T19:32:31Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:32:46Z kjak quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-01T19:33:19Z kjak joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:35:29Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:35:29Z knobo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T19:35:54Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:35:56Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T19:36:11Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:36:58Z kjak quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-01T19:38:19Z kjak joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:42:09Z phoe: Can I call a hook when an ASDF system is successfully loaded? 2017-10-01T19:42:24Z phoe: Is there some kind of keyword argument to DEFSYSTEM that I can use for that? 2017-10-01T19:45:02Z Shinmera: Uuuh there's some stuff to sorta declaratively define a perform method 2017-10-01T19:45:19Z Shinmera: And I think you can do an after method on perform load-op of a particular system. 2017-10-01T19:45:33Z Shinmera: So yes, but I don't remember how exactly. 2017-10-01T19:46:09Z phoe: Will it be a hack to just call some code in the last file of that system? 2017-10-01T19:46:21Z phoe: Which, with :SERIAL T, will imply that all previous files compiled successfully? 2017-10-01T19:47:24Z Shinmera: If this is your own system, why not just add a new file or something that's loaded last 2017-10-01T19:47:36Z Shinmera: I mean, what exactly do you even think you need to do? 2017-10-01T19:48:27Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T19:51:57Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-01T19:54:45Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T20:01:39Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T20:05:23Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-01T20:08:24Z bigos_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:11:13Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:20:18Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T20:20:36Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T20:20:55Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:24:29Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:25:06Z solene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T20:27:11Z bigos_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-01T20:28:47Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:28:56Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T20:29:12Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:29:32Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T20:30:21Z stylewarning: Who has taken over maintenance of hunchentoot 2017-10-01T20:30:46Z Shinmera: Probably nobody so far 2017-10-01T20:31:01Z phoe: Shinmera: I actually want to do this. And, whenever a system is loaded, I want to push some stuff to lists, so the GUI/Qtools module knows which buttons to display and widgets to instantiate. 2017-10-01T20:31:28Z phoe: Basically, for each system A, B, C, the system FOO will need to display a button that triggers visibility of A's widget. 2017-10-01T20:32:12Z Shinmera: Uh, so you want to load systems during the runtime of your gui? 2017-10-01T20:32:21Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T20:34:47Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:35:56Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T20:36:03Z stylewarning: phoe can you define after methods on the symbolic name of the system 2017-10-01T20:36:36Z stylewarning: EQL-specialized :after method on the systems of interest 2017-10-01T20:36:53Z stylewarning: Or an AROUND method that intercepts all loaded systems 2017-10-01T20:37:38Z stylewarning: (Prog1 (call-next-method) (if system-of-interest do-thing)) 2017-10-01T20:37:45Z Shinmera: I don't think it's guaranteed that perform is called on the system's name, just its object. 2017-10-01T20:38:06Z Shinmera: Actually I'd be surprised if perform is called on the system's name at all, ever. 2017-10-01T20:38:50Z DingoSaar quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T20:46:07Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:47:21Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-10-01T20:47:34Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T20:50:03Z Josh_2` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T20:51:28Z whoman is now known as hooman 2017-10-01T21:02:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T21:06:18Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T21:09:55Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T21:18:16Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T21:18:54Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T21:19:16Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T21:23:29Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T21:26:27Z aeth: Is alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector the way to go for binary data? 2017-10-01T21:26:50Z aeth: Just something simple, encoding things as numbers, not a full serialization 2017-10-01T21:27:00Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-01T21:27:03Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T21:29:59Z stylewarning: aeth no 2017-10-01T21:30:14Z stylewarning: Well I guess it depends on what you’re asking 2017-10-01T21:30:23Z shrdlu68: aeth: It simply opens with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) and reads the whole file. 2017-10-01T21:30:46Z stylewarning: If you’re saying you have a file containing bytes and you want to make that into an array containing bytes, then it’s the way to go 2017-10-01T21:31:24Z aeth: I want a file that can essentially be expressed as #(0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 0-255 ...) 2017-10-01T21:32:10Z aeth: so I see no reason to not do this 2017-10-01T21:32:14Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T21:32:28Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T21:33:03Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T21:35:33Z stylewarning: Sounds fine then 2017-10-01T21:36:05Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T21:36:21Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T21:41:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T21:47:14Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-01T21:50:13Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T21:50:48Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T21:54:58Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T21:59:26Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-01T22:02:20Z shrdlu68: Is there a variable that holds the value of the last thing evaluated? Not the return value, but what was evaluated. 2017-10-01T22:04:06Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T22:05:16Z shrdlu68: Say I call a function, and then re-define it. How can I call it again as I had called it the last time without having to type it all? 2017-10-01T22:05:57Z shrdlu68: In the repl, that is. 2017-10-01T22:15:24Z phoe: Shinmera: yes 2017-10-01T22:15:26Z phoe: * 2017-10-01T22:15:33Z phoe: oh, wait 2017-10-01T22:15:35Z phoe: + 2017-10-01T22:15:58Z phoe: if you type "(+ 2 2)" in REPL, then * will be bound to 4 and + will be bound to (+ 2 2) 2017-10-01T22:16:02Z phoe: shrdlu68: ^ 2017-10-01T22:16:04Z phoe: Shinmera: sorry 2017-10-01T22:17:23Z shrdlu68: phoe: Thanks. 2017-10-01T22:18:37Z phoe: shrdlu68: - is the currently evaluated expression and / is the m-v-l of the last expression's values 2017-10-01T22:18:46Z phoe: + * / also come in ++ and +++ variants 2017-10-01T22:19:02Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-01T22:21:53Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T22:21:55Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-01T22:24:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-01T22:25:09Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-01T22:25:41Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-10-01T22:27:20Z _death: + can also be useful after evaluating a special variable.. if you want to change it you can do (set + ).. an old trick I found reading cl-su-ai 2017-10-01T22:37:48Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T22:41:21Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T22:43:59Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T22:44:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-01T22:44:31Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T22:44:50Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-01T22:49:02Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-01T22:51:48Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T23:05:22Z stylewarning: I’ve basically never used anything but * ** 2017-10-01T23:05:30Z stylewarning: The rest are gimmicks 2017-10-01T23:09:48Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-01T23:15:53Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-01T23:18:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-01T23:19:15Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-01T23:19:24Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-01T23:20:36Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-01T23:23:00Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-01T23:25:37Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-10-01T23:25:40Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-01T23:28:07Z Fare: Elias Pipping, who wrote the launch-program support for ASDF 3.2, just passed away. :-( 2017-10-01T23:31:32Z stylewarning: Fare: that is unfortunate news, especially collected with these other untimely deaths :( 2017-10-01T23:31:58Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-01T23:33:12Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-01T23:33:41Z Fare: other untimely deaths? 2017-10-01T23:33:50Z Fare: who are you thinking of? 2017-10-01T23:34:07Z stylewarning: Fare: Vladimir Voevodsky 2017-10-01T23:35:00Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-01T23:35:02Z Fare: yeah, not a lisper, but a great loss for computer science :-( 2017-10-01T23:36:05Z Fare: and, who knows, maybe a proper solution to higher-order equality paths is in a reflection principle that would take the world closer to Lisp 2017-10-01T23:37:28Z Fare: that said, to an extropian, all deaths are untimely 2017-10-01T23:39:52Z Fare: except maybe those of unredeemable criminals, that come all too late. 2017-10-01T23:43:57Z edgar-rft: let's make a list of people who died just-in-time 2017-10-02T00:02:56Z itruslove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T00:02:56Z Guest431 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T00:03:50Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:04:07Z stylewarning: edgar-rft: death is rarely a positive event, but there are folks who spent an average or above average lifetime doing productive things for humanity 2017-10-02T00:04:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:04:32Z stylewarning: and then there are some who have produced exceptional things for humanity but only lived half the time as any (average) other. To me, those are especially untimely. 2017-10-02T00:04:35Z rpg: If anyone around has operator privs, it might be nice to put a micro-obituary for Elias in the message for #lisp. 2017-10-02T00:05:37Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:06:50Z Fare: edgar-rft: that would be criminals stopped just before the act by the victim in self-defense. 2017-10-02T00:08:45Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:10:47Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T00:11:21Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:11:53Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T00:12:06Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:13:36Z z3t0: hi 2017-10-02T00:26:40Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-02T00:28:43Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T00:30:10Z shrdlu68: z3t0: Hello 2017-10-02T00:35:02Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-02T00:38:00Z marvin2 left #lisp 2017-10-02T00:48:22Z z3t0: hey shrdlu68 2017-10-02T00:48:24Z z3t0: whats up 2017-10-02T00:52:10Z nydel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T00:52:39Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T00:53:16Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:55:10Z z3t0_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T00:55:11Z z3t0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T00:55:43Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:04:12Z hel-io_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T01:04:20Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T01:04:31Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:04:58Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T01:05:25Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T01:05:59Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:12:21Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:15:27Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:15:27Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T01:15:56Z smokeink: how to macroexpand a reader macro ? 2017-10-02T01:18:20Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:21:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:22:37Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:23:10Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T01:25:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T01:28:05Z Fare: you read a string 2017-10-02T01:28:21Z Fare: you read *from* a string. 2017-10-02T01:28:46Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:28:55Z smokeink: (read-from-string "'q") ; how to make it return (quote q) ? 2017-10-02T01:29:02Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:34:19Z stylewarning: Any ABCL users? I'm curious about your experience. 2017-10-02T01:34:45Z stylewarning: smokeink: it does return (QUOTE Q) 2017-10-02T01:34:53Z stylewarning: that is printed by the printer as 'Q 2017-10-02T01:35:54Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:36:29Z stylewarning: Observe: 2017-10-02T01:36:35Z stylewarning: * (let ((*print-pretty* nil)) (prin1-to-string (read-from-string "'q"))) 2017-10-02T01:36:35Z stylewarning: "(QUOTE Q)" 2017-10-02T01:37:31Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:38:53Z smokeink: ok that worked. thanks 2017-10-02T01:40:23Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T01:41:26Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:41:42Z giraffe is now known as Guest21598 2017-10-02T01:48:20Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-02T01:50:53Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T01:55:19Z DingoSaar_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T01:55:24Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:02:05Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T02:02:58Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:04:03Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-02T02:04:59Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:05:26Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:06:59Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:11:13Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:12:11Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T02:12:57Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T02:15:10Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:18:39Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:21:38Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:21:39Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T02:21:58Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:22:36Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:23:16Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:24:52Z saki quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-02T02:29:22Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:30:16Z saki quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-02T02:30:36Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:30:57Z turkja left #lisp 2017-10-02T02:31:13Z basket joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:32:55Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:33:15Z saki quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-02T02:36:21Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:36:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:37:09Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-10-02T02:38:05Z z3t0_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:38:41Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:39:04Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:43:09Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T02:45:39Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:49:18Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:53:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T02:54:12Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:55:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T02:58:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T02:58:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:02:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:02:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:20:24Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T03:26:09Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:28:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:29:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:30:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:31:32Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:32:01Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T03:32:05Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:33:54Z Fade: Fare: hat's unfortunate. Is there an obituary? 2017-10-02T03:34:12Z Guest99802 is now known as kushal 2017-10-02T03:34:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:34:40Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-10-02T03:34:40Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:34:41Z Fade: s/hat/that 2017-10-02T03:34:56Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:35:16Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:35:44Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:36:07Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:36:27Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-02T03:36:32Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:36:54Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:37:20Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:37:38Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:38:08Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T03:44:37Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-02T03:46:35Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:48:14Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T03:50:29Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-02T03:51:16Z shrdlu68: Good morning, beach 2017-10-02T03:53:18Z stylewarning: good evening 2017-10-02T03:54:58Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-02T03:56:37Z smokeink: is there any way to eval regions that contain read-macros (such as cl-annot's @export ) in slime ? It always gives me "variable @export is unbound". c-K (compile the whole file) works but i'm wondering if there's a way to eval just a region 2017-10-02T04:01:51Z jmercouris: beach: good morning 2017-10-02T04:05:39Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T04:07:03Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T04:07:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-02T04:08:40Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-02T04:12:09Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T04:16:14Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T04:20:17Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T04:20:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-02T04:20:57Z stylewarning: smokeink: SLIME-EVAL-REGION? 2017-10-02T04:21:06Z stylewarning: select a region and callbg7vt 2017-10-02T04:21:14Z stylewarning: call that* 2017-10-02T04:21:35Z beach: I am not sure it installs the right readtable then. 2017-10-02T04:21:50Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T04:22:16Z stylewarning: The @export read macro isn't cool anyway :D 2017-10-02T04:22:25Z beach: True. 2017-10-02T04:22:28Z stylewarning: we have a perfectly good EXPORT function :) 2017-10-02T04:24:50Z |3b|: and perfectly good keybindings to add an export to the defpackage :) 2017-10-02T04:25:17Z stylewarning: What I do think I'd like is something like Haskell's DERIVING 2017-10-02T04:25:42Z stylewarning: @derive(equality print ...) (defstruct/defclass ...) 2017-10-02T04:27:56Z beach: I have a similar problem in that I have defined a reader macro for Cleavir ASTs. It looks like this [ : ... : ] 2017-10-02T04:28:32Z stylewarning: I actually have been wanting to see/write a tutorial about what's actually involved in defining a new object or new read macro. How do you _properly_ write a printer, a load-form, etc.? 2017-10-02T04:28:36Z beach: And I also can't evaluate a single definition using SLIME because of the wrong readtable being used. 2017-10-02T04:28:58Z smokeink: what does derive do in haskell ? Actually I am not using export, i'm using an ordinary custom function called cors that sets up some hunchentoot headers and cl annot allows one to use @ in front of any function so i have @cors (f) which translates to (cors (f)) 2017-10-02T04:30:08Z Fare: stylewarning, did you look at lisp-interface-library ? 2017-10-02T04:30:17Z stylewarning: Fare, yes of course! 2017-10-02T04:30:18Z beach: stylewarning: I have a save-info macro that, for a given class, associates a list of pairs (:initarg accessor). When the object is written, it is written in the form you saw above, but with *package* bound to the keyword package so that all package prefixes are present. 2017-10-02T04:30:29Z |3b|: does slime take advantage of named-readtables? 2017-10-02T04:30:48Z beach: I think named-readtables could be the solution. 2017-10-02T04:31:36Z Fare: stylewarning, no inference, but you can explicitly get your typeclass-like stuff with interface mixins 2017-10-02T04:31:38Z beach: stylewarning: When I read an object, I just read the class name and the list of initializations as a plist, then I do (apply #'make-instance class-name initargs) 2017-10-02T04:31:40Z |3b| sees a sly contrib for it, but not finding anything for slime 2017-10-02T04:32:28Z stylewarning: Fare: I meant something irrespective of the notion of a typeclass I guess. Just ways of automatically generating things, just as DEFSTRUCT does with a few things. 2017-10-02T04:32:54Z beach: stylewarning: That way, I only save enough of an object to reproduce its API. 2017-10-02T04:33:07Z stylewarning: beach: link to the code for this? 2017-10-02T04:33:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T04:33:45Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Code/Cleavir/Input-output 2017-10-02T04:33:54Z |3b|: looks like slime is expected to notice named-readtables, so might help 2017-10-02T04:35:06Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-02T04:35:21Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T04:35:30Z beach: stylewarning: I use it for ASTs in Cleavir, but I have also used it in the past for saving the entire object graph in Gsharp. Circularity is handled correctly, provided your Common Lisp implementation has a good reader. 2017-10-02T04:46:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-02T04:46:47Z neoncontrails quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-02T04:47:11Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Please fix it if I screw it up. 2017-10-02T07:31:23Z phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.4.0, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1 | Farewell and thank you, Elias Pipping. May you rest peacefully. 2017-10-02T07:31:30Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2017-10-02T07:31:58Z phoe: minion: memo for rpg: done. 2017-10-02T07:31:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-10-02T07:33:40Z hajovonta: hello 2017-10-02T07:33:45Z phoe: hey hajovonta 2017-10-02T07:34:00Z hajovonta: hi 2017-10-02T07:34:06Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T07:34:47Z hajovonta: I have a general problem which I already solved one way, but I'm interested if anyone else faced it before and what was the solution 2017-10-02T07:35:00Z phoe: hajovonta: describe this problem then! 2017-10-02T07:35:22Z hajovonta: it is that I have a dataset (say, a list of lists), and have to display and edit it somehow, as in Excel or other tabular editor 2017-10-02T07:35:39Z hajovonta: because it's inconvenient to enter and edit this kind of data in the REPL 2017-10-02T07:36:03Z phoe: a list of lists can be possibly interpreted as a 2D array. 2017-10-02T07:36:09Z hajovonta: yes 2017-10-02T07:36:11Z beach: hajovonta: Can't you just stick it in a file? 2017-10-02T07:36:21Z phoe: ^ 2017-10-02T07:36:27Z hajovonta: beach: sure I can 2017-10-02T07:36:41Z phoe: In the worst worst case, export your data into some kind of CSV file and load it up in any spreadsheet program. 2017-10-02T07:36:45Z hajovonta: my solution was that I print this as an org-table and edit it in Emacs as org 2017-10-02T07:36:54Z phoe: Exactly. 2017-10-02T07:37:13Z hajovonta: then, when loading back into CL, interpret it as pipe-separated CSV and then post-process 2017-10-02T07:38:06Z hajovonta: and it works, but, as you see, I'm now bound to Emacs. I don't know if Emacs has a good csv editor 2017-10-02T07:38:30Z hajovonta: I tried csv-mode, but I was not satisfied 2017-10-02T07:38:39Z phoe: orgmode tables are probably as good as you can get. 2017-10-02T07:38:53Z arduo joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:38:57Z hajovonta: that's good to hear :) 2017-10-02T07:39:05Z phoe: But then again, that's an #emacs question actually. 2017-10-02T07:39:11Z hajovonta: yes,... 2017-10-02T07:39:12Z phoe: You might get better answers there. 2017-10-02T07:39:36Z hajovonta: I'm a bit concerned with loading back and forth 2017-10-02T07:39:45Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T07:39:59Z hajovonta: from and to the CL image 2017-10-02T07:40:21Z phoe: CSV is a very troublesome format in the matter, because it is subject to a lot of interpretation. 2017-10-02T07:40:45Z phoe: If every *every* newline starts a new row, what are the delimiters, how do you escape strings, and so on, and so on. 2017-10-02T07:41:10Z phoe: As long as you have software that uses a common version of CSV file format, you should be good. 2017-10-02T07:41:33Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:41:47Z hajovonta: yes, I'm aware... I want to just stick with Excel-format, because the software I'm working on might be of use by Excel people. 2017-10-02T07:41:53Z beach: hajovonta: Is it not practical to just have a text file that can be processed with READ? 2017-10-02T07:42:01Z beach: Oh. 2017-10-02T07:42:07Z phoe: CSV is an excel enough format. 2017-10-02T07:42:13Z phoe: It is readable via Excel. 2017-10-02T07:42:25Z hajovonta: beach: there is the performance problem of having large quantities of data in list of lists 2017-10-02T07:42:34Z phoe: And you should be able to work out a compromise that is read well enough by Lisp, by Emacs, and Excel. 2017-10-02T07:42:37Z hajovonta: what is the general way to store this in CL? 2017-10-02T07:42:54Z phoe: hajovonta: you can store it in a vector of vectors if you are concerned about that. 2017-10-02T07:42:59Z beach: hajovonta: How large quantities are we talking about, and what are your performance requirements? 2017-10-02T07:43:25Z phoe: If your lists are of equal length and will not grow, you can use a 2D array. 2017-10-02T07:43:43Z hajovonta: I have problems when I have cells in the millions range 2017-10-02T07:44:00Z hajovonta: On my computer, I managed to load a 5-million cell array 2017-10-02T07:44:09Z beach: That should not be a problem at all. 2017-10-02T07:44:15Z hajovonta: like 50 columns x 100000 rows 2017-10-02T07:44:31Z hajovonta: phoe: it must be dynamic 2017-10-02T07:44:43Z hajovonta: to be able to add rows and remove and also columns 2017-10-02T07:44:45Z phoe: hajovonta: then adjustable vector of adjustable vectors. 2017-10-02T07:44:59Z hajovonta: can I filter and sort and search in them? 2017-10-02T07:45:04Z phoe: though in this case removing a row or a column will be O(n). 2017-10-02T07:45:07Z phoe: Yes, you can. 2017-10-02T07:45:16Z phoe: REMOVE, SORT, SEARCH all accept sequences. 2017-10-02T07:45:44Z hajovonta: right now I just have a hashtable with the key (column,row) and values as values 2017-10-02T07:46:05Z hajovonta: I don't know if it's better or worse 2017-10-02T07:46:27Z phoe: Depends. For 5e6 elements, this might be starting to get troublesome. 2017-10-02T07:47:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:47:23Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:48:45Z hajovonta: phoe: how does vector x vector compare to that? 2017-10-02T07:49:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:50:02Z phoe: hajovonta: frankly, I don't know. Vector² access is O(1), hash table access is amortized O(1). 2017-10-02T07:50:22Z phoe: You'd need to measure it yourself to see which one works better. 2017-10-02T07:50:28Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:51:38Z hajovonta: amortized? :D 2017-10-02T07:51:45Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:51:54Z phoe: hajovonta: in simpler words, most of the time. 2017-10-02T07:52:11Z phoe: hash table access is O(1) unless there are collisions, at which point it might take more than that. 2017-10-02T07:52:19Z JuanDaugherty: linpack or other purpose built stuff wouldn't be better? 2017-10-02T07:52:35Z phoe: The worst possible case ever for a hash table is O(n) but achieving this means that your hash table is broken. 2017-10-02T07:54:58Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-02T07:56:52Z hajovonta: is the key type a factor here? like, numbered, symbol, string, or other types? 2017-10-02T07:57:41Z phoe: Might be, but not really. You might want to read up on how hash tables are constructed. 2017-10-02T07:57:46Z chiyosaki quit (Quit: chiyosaki) 2017-10-02T07:58:44Z hajovonta: thanks! 2017-10-02T07:59:31Z hajovonta: another question. it might be SBCL-specific. say, I have large quantities of data in memory, how do I release the memory? 2017-10-02T07:59:44Z phoe: make sure the data is not accessible anymore. 2017-10-02T07:59:46Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:59:46Z some-user joined #lisp 2017-10-02T07:59:47Z JuanDaugherty left #lisp 2017-10-02T07:59:49Z some-user: hello 2017-10-02T07:59:58Z phoe: Lisp does not manage memory manually - it is a garbage collected language. 2017-10-02T08:00:03Z beach: Hello some-user. 2017-10-02T08:00:06Z phoe: hey some-user 2017-10-02T08:00:55Z Shinmera: phoe: It's perfectly valid for an implementation to just continue accumulating memory and never freeing it. 2017-10-02T08:01:05Z phoe: hajovonta: so if your huge array is only accessible via the *HUGE-ARRAY* special variable, do (setf *huge-array* nil) and the array will eventually be-- 2017-10-02T08:01:07Z some-user: how to reload defparameter/:allocation :class/etc when you restart your saved image as executable? 2017-10-02T08:01:21Z phoe: Shinmera: ...really? 2017-10-02T08:01:36Z Shinmera: phoe: Obviously, since the spec says absolutely nothing about memory. 2017-10-02T08:01:48Z phoe: ...well. Right. 2017-10-02T08:01:59Z beach: some-user: I think you need to explain your problem in a greater level of detail. 2017-10-02T08:02:07Z Shinmera: It is also conceivable that there could be an implementation with manual freeing. 2017-10-02T08:02:12Z beach: some-user: Otherwise, the answer is going to be: use the function LOAD. 2017-10-02T08:02:18Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:02:34Z phoe: some-user: these should be saved together with the image and accessible after you reload it. 2017-10-02T08:02:47Z some-user: currently when i restarting my image defparameters remain in the same state as of the time image was created 2017-10-02T08:03:00Z beach: Of course. 2017-10-02T08:03:00Z phoe: some-user: yes, and this is expected behaviour. 2017-10-02T08:03:30Z phoe: If you want to modify them when the image is reloaded, then you will want to call some hook functions on when the image is loaded again. 2017-10-02T08:03:51Z phoe: See UIOP/IMAGE package for tools that allow you to do this. 2017-10-02T08:04:06Z arduo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T08:04:25Z scymtym: phoe: hajovonta: for EQUAL hash-tables, the key type can be important. when computing the hash value for CONSes, some implementations stop at a certain depth. thus having lists as keys that are identical up to that point can cause degraded performance (see https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1712130 ) 2017-10-02T08:04:42Z some-user: phoe: got it, thanks! give me a sec and i'll provide complete example of what i'm trying to do, maybe there is a better way 2017-10-02T08:04:48Z some-user: beach: ^ 2017-10-02T08:05:19Z phoe: scymtym: thanks. 2017-10-02T08:08:19Z pjb: hajovonta: emacs has several good spreadsheets. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SpreadSheet 2017-10-02T08:09:44Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:10:38Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-02T08:10:43Z some-user: phoe: beach https://gist.github.com/anonymous/bca72012cd541d4aab458da716a82a1c 2017-10-02T08:12:29Z beach: some-user: You either need to save a new image after updating the variable, or you need to save/load a file with the new value of the parameter. I am sorry to say this, but it is a direct consequence of the stupidity of existing operating systems. 2017-10-02T08:12:53Z phoe: some-user: you need to reopen all files after dumping the image. 2017-10-02T08:13:08Z phoe: or rather, close the files before dumping the image, and open the files after restoring it. 2017-10-02T08:13:23Z beach: That too. 2017-10-02T08:13:54Z beach: But I don't think that's the issue here. 2017-10-02T08:14:08Z kami joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:14:12Z phoe: Oh, one more thing. 2017-10-02T08:14:14Z kami: Good morning 2017-10-02T08:14:19Z phoe: Do you rebind *STATE* as a dynamic variable? 2017-10-02T08:14:20Z beach: Hello kami. 2017-10-02T08:14:21Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:14:40Z phoe: AFAIK SBCL only saves the toplevel value, so in case of (let ((*state* ...)) ...) - this value is lost. 2017-10-02T08:14:45Z beach: phoe: It looks like it is SETF-ed 2017-10-02T08:14:52Z some-user: phoe: nope, i just use it for setf 2017-10-02T08:15:05Z phoe: beach: yes, but the toplevel binding there is SETFed, this should be preserved nonetheless. 2017-10-02T08:15:54Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:18:51Z some-user: phoe: could you please expand on your open/close files suggestion, i'm not sure i understand? 2017-10-02T08:19:17Z beach: some-user: phoe is thinking that you might be trying to keep files open in the saved image. 2017-10-02T08:19:25Z beach: some-user: It doesn't look like that to me. 2017-10-02T08:21:28Z some-user: beach: you're right, my idea was just to load state once on program startup and then update it with setf(also save updates to state file) 2017-10-02T08:21:54Z some-user: which is works normally but breaks if i'm trying to save image 2017-10-02T08:21:55Z beach: some-user: It doesn't work that way. 2017-10-02T08:22:29Z hajovonta: scymtym: thanks! 2017-10-02T08:22:35Z hajovonta: pjb: thanks 2017-10-02T08:22:35Z beach: some-user: The image that you saved on disk is not affected by any action after you load the image into memory. 2017-10-02T08:24:06Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T08:24:56Z some-user: beach: yeah but what to do in my scenario then, what approach i should take? i'd like to save my program image for startup speed reasons 2017-10-02T08:25:23Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:25:27Z beach: some-user: Keep a file with the current value of the variable. 2017-10-02T08:25:41Z hajovonta: scymtym: I have keys as two-element lists, so I guess I'm under that threshold? 2017-10-02T08:25:52Z hajovonta: is my understanding correct? 2017-10-02T08:25:58Z beach: some-user: Whenever you modify the value of the variable, OR, whenever you quit the program, write the current value of the variable to that file. 2017-10-02T08:26:09Z hajovonta: "This is caused by hash collisions because the keys are long-ish lists and EQUAL-HASH (via SXHASH) only traverses CONS trees up to depth 4. CCL seems to cut off at depth 6." 2017-10-02T08:26:21Z beach: some-user: Then, when you load the image, the first action to take is to also set the variable to the value stored in the file. 2017-10-02T08:27:52Z some-user: beach: got it, thank you! 2017-10-02T08:28:02Z beach: Sure. Good luck. 2017-10-02T08:33:29Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:34:25Z some-user: sigh, i'm not sure i understand everything completely but image approach seems needlesly complex for solving slow startup problem 2017-10-02T08:34:27Z beach: some-user: I find it interesting that you were surprised about this behavior. Most people are so brainwashed by the Unix-style distinction between primary and secondary memory that they would be very surprised if things worked the way you expected them to. 2017-10-02T08:34:31Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:34:53Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:35:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T08:35:42Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T08:35:42Z scymtym: hajovonta: yeah, that should not be an issue 2017-10-02T08:35:45Z beach: some-user: Things in Unix land (or other similar operating systems) are needlessly complex because of this distinction between primary and secondary memory. Sorry this is happening to you. 2017-10-02T08:36:05Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:36:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:36:38Z beach: some-user: Do you have a single variable that you need to save the value of? 2017-10-02T08:36:51Z beach: ... otherwise, things can become a bit messy. 2017-10-02T08:37:15Z some-user: beach: yeah, luckily it's just a single variable :) 2017-10-02T08:37:38Z beach: some-user: And what is the type of its value? Something simple like a number? 2017-10-02T08:38:00Z some-user: beach: nah, it's a hash-table 2017-10-02T08:38:16Z beach: That complicates things a lot :( 2017-10-02T08:38:52Z beach: ... because there is no pre-defined way of writing a hash table to a stream. 2017-10-02T08:39:14Z geertvl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:39:30Z some-user: beach: i'm using cl-store for this 2017-10-02T08:40:03Z beach: Er, then you should not have a problem. Just store the thing in the, well, store. 2017-10-02T08:40:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T08:42:28Z some-user: beach: the problem was in my defparameter from gist used for setfing and retrieving data, so now i understand better how to rewrite it, thank you 2017-10-02T08:42:39Z beach: Anytime. 2017-10-02T08:43:49Z phoe: beach: actually, it depends on what is stored inside that hash table. 2017-10-02T08:44:14Z beach: That too. 2017-10-02T08:44:27Z phoe: I have been using a trick in form of https://blog.teknik.io/phoe/p/390 to turn the hash table into an alist and print it, all while preserving identity. 2017-10-02T08:44:57Z phoe: Then all it takes to read the hashtable back is to call READ on its printed representation. 2017-10-02T08:45:08Z phoe: It's portable, since ALEXANDRIA is portable. 2017-10-02T08:45:32Z phoe: But it depends on all objects stored inside the hashtable being printable readably. 2017-10-02T08:46:32Z phoe: some-user: ^ 2017-10-02T08:47:13Z hajovonta: I think my program satisfies that requirement. 2017-10-02T08:47:44Z hajovonta: is there any good free persistence library around? 2017-10-02T08:48:02Z phoe: hajovonta: BKNR.DATASTORE 2017-10-02T08:48:08Z hajovonta: I used AllegroCache in the past, and it was very good, also Rucksack but it seems to be old. 2017-10-02T08:48:16Z phoe: but then, depends on your definition of persistence 2017-10-02T08:49:20Z hajovonta: hm 2017-10-02T08:49:22Z hajovonta: thanks 2017-10-02T08:50:44Z beach again observes the numerous attempts to compensate for Unix stupidity. This time in the form of various ways of handling the difference between primary and secondary memory. 2017-10-02T08:51:35Z phoe: beach: yep, it's a burden that we contemporary programmers need to carry for now. 2017-10-02T08:51:57Z beach: You should go on a global strike. 2017-10-02T08:52:26Z phoe: It's hard, the people I might be striking against would be all "but we're in the same hole as you". :( 2017-10-02T08:52:29Z dim: what's the alternative? the RAM being a transparent cache for the disk? 2017-10-02T08:52:41Z dim: much like the CPU cache levels are? 2017-10-02T08:52:55Z beach: dim: Yes. The solution has been known for half a century. 2017-10-02T08:52:58Z phoe: dim: basically, yes. 2017-10-02T08:53:08Z hajovonta: yes 2017-10-02T08:53:17Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T08:53:20Z dim: do you still have a local heap and stack in a process? 2017-10-02T08:53:41Z beach: dim: The concept of a process is another Unix stupidity. 2017-10-02T08:53:46Z dim: hehe 2017-10-02T08:53:49Z hajovonta: I think it's because of the C people we have to face this situation 2017-10-02T08:54:06Z dim: beach: in my mind it solves the problem of having multiple people program a single machine 2017-10-02T08:54:17Z beach: dim: See section 1.2 of this document: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2017-10-02T08:54:31Z dim: thanks 2017-10-02T08:54:40Z dim: beach: do you ever consider publishing? 2017-10-02T08:54:49Z beach: dim: It does solve that problem yes. But it is using heavy artillery to kill small insects. 2017-10-02T08:55:09Z beach: dim: I publish 2-3 papers per year. This particular one is not yet ready. 2017-10-02T08:56:14Z phoe: brb, time to do something productive 2017-10-02T08:56:52Z dim: beach: ah yeah academia... I guess 2017-10-02T08:57:04Z dim: I had already read that parts of your paper, it seems 2017-10-02T08:57:05Z beach: That's what I do, yes. 2017-10-02T08:59:18Z dim: yeah, I'm currently writing a book that I'm self-publishing 2017-10-02T08:59:19Z some-user: phoe: thanks for suggestion! 2017-10-02T08:59:26Z dim: hence a different mindset around the same activity 2017-10-02T08:59:37Z dim: didn't want to push it on you tho, sorry if it came out that way 2017-10-02T08:59:39Z beach: dim: That's an excellent idea. I do that too. 2017-10-02T09:00:19Z dim: seems that I can't find this Naggum article comparing Unix and Lisp in the same spirit as in your paper 2017-10-02T09:00:30Z dim: (of course with much more anger, Naggum's style) 2017-10-02T09:00:37Z beach: Heh, yes, of course. 2017-10-02T09:00:57Z beach does not recall having read such an article. 2017-10-02T09:01:04Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:01:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T09:01:40Z jackdaniel: wasn't it perl-lisp comparison? 2017-10-02T09:03:28Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T09:05:39Z dim: Eric was answering someone who wanted a Python like os package as a CL facility 2017-10-02T09:05:59Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T09:06:14Z beach: "Erik", not "Eric". 2017-10-02T09:07:25Z dim: found it! 2017-10-02T09:07:25Z dim: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3245983402026014@naggum.no.html 2017-10-02T09:07:35Z dim: ah yeah Erik, sorry (Norway and all that) 2017-10-02T09:08:10Z dim: « That would be good. An abstraction of the operating system services and objects into Common Lisp would be fantastically welcome, precisely because it is so goddamn hard to do. » 2017-10-02T09:08:33Z dim: and then he expands on the differences in spirit that makes it so hard, and your paper reminded me of that 2017-10-02T09:10:09Z beach: Thanks for the link. 2017-10-02T09:10:57Z beach: Yes, I don't have a solution for that problem. 2017-10-02T09:11:59Z pjb: Well, one could still make a POSIX package using CFFI… I don't think it would be as bad as he says that you'd have to maintain 12 implementations. 2017-10-02T09:12:35Z dim: beach: so you do also publish books outside of your accademic curriculum? 2017-10-02T09:12:37Z jackdaniel: osicat aims at that 2017-10-02T09:12:41Z pjb: Now, if vendors want to optimize the POSIX package for their own implementation, they're free. 2017-10-02T09:12:49Z beach: I have a better idea. Create a library with Common Lisp functions that correspond to POSIX system calls. 2017-10-02T09:12:51Z shka: hello all 2017-10-02T09:13:08Z shka: beach: osicat? 2017-10-02T09:13:09Z pjb: hello one 2017-10-02T09:13:19Z shka: yes 2017-10-02T09:13:23Z shka: i am one 2017-10-02T09:13:24Z dim: pjb: my understanding of what Erik says is more to do with the incompabilility of the level of abstractions of Unix and Lisp, not how to reconcile them in practical terms 2017-10-02T09:13:25Z beach: dim: Mostly books that I find I need to write when I take on a new course. 2017-10-02T09:13:26Z shka: ;] 2017-10-02T09:13:56Z pjb: dim: a POSIX package wouldn't have to reconcile them. Just provide the POSIX abstractions. Ie, no pathname, just paths that are strings. 2017-10-02T09:14:12Z beach: dim: But also when I think about the sad state of some topics such as algorithms and data structures, operating systems, programming languages, the software industry, etc. 2017-10-02T09:15:14Z pjb: beach: what do you mena the sad state of algorithms and data structures? (I've got Knuth at hand reach). 2017-10-02T09:15:34Z dim: pjb: Unix file names (paths) are **NOT** strings 2017-10-02T09:15:41Z dim: they are byte arrays 2017-10-02T09:15:50Z pjb: right, sorry for the lax terminology. 2017-10-02T09:15:50Z dim: on windows they are strings, encoded in UTF16 2017-10-02T09:16:04Z dim: on Unix there is no encoding, only bytes, so it's not even a string 2017-10-02T09:16:14Z pjb: windows is not POSIX, is it? 2017-10-02T09:16:18Z dim: it is 2017-10-02T09:16:39Z dim: well there are 3 or 4 levels of POSIX compat and windows reaches the first of them, IIRC 2017-10-02T09:18:08Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T09:18:34Z beach: pjb: They algorithmic languages used are basically Fortran. They don't take modern architectures into account, still assuming the RAM model is valid, and they still think that a factor 256 can be neglected because it is a constant after all. 2017-10-02T09:19:03Z dim: beach: do you sell on LeanPub, somewhere else? would you share your experience? (maybe in PM rather than on the channel, that said) 2017-10-02T09:19:10Z pjb: Some books use functional languages and data structures… 2017-10-02T09:19:24Z shka: beach: academia and industry are not exactly well connected 2017-10-02T09:19:25Z beach: dim: I use CreateSpace which is an Amazon affiliate. 2017-10-02T09:19:32Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:19:33Z shka: and this is not even the best example of that 2017-10-02T09:19:41Z dim: oh, so they take 70% of the profits, IIUC 2017-10-02T09:19:51Z beach: No, not at all. 2017-10-02T09:20:00Z some-user quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T09:20:13Z beach: They have a fixed cost for printing. The author can choose any price higher than the cost. 2017-10-02T09:20:19Z pjb: But in any case, it is assumed that your O(.) must be computed in function of the operations you deem important. Books only use memory accesses as examples, it's left as an exercise for the reader, to assertain whether memory accesses are O(1) and factor that in. 2017-10-02T09:20:57Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:21:03Z beach: pjb: Also, apparently almost all books get the elementary stuff wrong. For instance binary search. 2017-10-02T09:21:10Z pjb: The only way would be to make those books even more mathematical. 2017-10-02T09:21:43Z beach: pjb: Furthermore, current books assume that all containers contain integers. This gives a false impression that comparing keys has the same cost as (say) comparing indices. 2017-10-02T09:21:46Z pjb: Really, the binary search bug goes back to books? 2017-10-02T09:22:03Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-02T09:22:27Z pjb: Well, as I said, the only solution would be to have a more mathematical, formalized presentation. It wouldn't help students… 2017-10-02T09:23:06Z beach: pjb: Moreover, because they don't care about constant factors, they don't bother finding optimal representations. A stack can be a list, but you then assume that allocation is O(1) and you pay a factor 256 penalty for (say) a list of DNA letters. 2017-10-02T09:23:13Z geertvl left #lisp 2017-10-02T09:23:34Z pjb: Indeed when we talk about algorithm complexities, we consider in general only one operation class. It's rare to see an analysis that takes into account all the "elementary" operations. 2017-10-02T09:23:40Z beach: pjb: And if you use an array, you need to have an upper bound OR reallocate, and in the latter case, you can't guarantee an upper bound on the time of an operation. 2017-10-02T09:23:41Z shka: beach: just finish that book, alright? :P 2017-10-02T09:23:47Z shka: and another one as well 2017-10-02T09:24:15Z beach: pjb: And I think that is not good enough in the environment we have today. 2017-10-02T09:24:34Z beach: Hence the "sad state of algorithms and data structures". 2017-10-02T09:24:48Z beach: shka: Yeah, it might be faster than to argue about it each time. :) 2017-10-02T09:25:00Z shka: yes! 2017-10-02T09:25:07Z dim: also cache friendly algorithms, and also sorting a 10 elements list is easy whatever the algo 2017-10-02T09:25:09Z pjb: beach: anyways, I agree that a more formal mathematical treatment should even help find some nice details. I've spent a few months starting to mathematize scanners, and it looked interesting (if not really worth the investment from a practical point of view). 2017-10-02T09:25:40Z dim: pjb: it looks to me like more formal math-like approach would help you a lot, but not everyone thinks the same way 2017-10-02T09:25:49Z shka: i would even consider asking you to review documentation that i'm writting right now, but i won't because you have tone of stuff to finish already :P 2017-10-02T09:26:26Z beach: The stuff I write does not rely on more theory or mathematics. Just a better grasp of orders of magnitude than most of my colleagues seem to have. 2017-10-02T09:26:42Z pjb: I guess people are busy finding new algorithms, rather than refining the presentation and design of existing ones… 2017-10-02T09:26:43Z dim: beach: any book about all that should begin with Amdahl's law 2017-10-02T09:26:57Z beach: dim: Why? 2017-10-02T09:27:22Z dim: I do lots of [Postgre]SQL consulting, and lots of query optimization, and people usually forget about it 2017-10-02T09:27:49Z beach: dim: How is it relevant to algorithms and data structures? 2017-10-02T09:27:50Z dim: if your SQL query takes 0.1ms on the server and your function takes 1s, maybe what you need to optimize isn't the SQL query… 2017-10-02T09:28:15Z dim: beach: because the first thing to understand is when do you have to be really careful about them 2017-10-02T09:28:20Z beach: How is that related to Amdahl's law? 2017-10-02T09:28:22Z dim: in my opinion at least 2017-10-02T09:29:50Z beach: I think I see what you mean. 2017-10-02T09:29:56Z beach: Forget my stupid questions. 2017-10-02T09:30:20Z dim: practical example, pgloader: I don't care much about algos and data structures for internal catalog representations, because I know that's not where the thing must be really fast 2017-10-02T09:31:05Z dim: it's going to take 1% to 5% maybe of the whole runtime anyway, and if it reaches more than 10% it's because you have a very small database to migrate 2017-10-02T09:31:21Z beach: I think I see what you mean. 2017-10-02T09:31:28Z dim: okay 2017-10-02T09:31:41Z dim: (sorry had to answer other people and didn't backlog before sending) 2017-10-02T09:31:51Z dim: anyway 2017-10-02T09:31:53Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-02T09:33:08Z dim: the other classic example, that I really want to mention because you'd never believe it until you see it, is the “PostgreSQL is 100% cpu, that's our bottleneck, please have a look”, and when you do well, any web page runs 1 to 10 *thousands* of SQL queries 2017-10-02T09:33:29Z phoe: dim: the fuck 2017-10-02T09:33:33Z dim: so you have 11 pages per second being displayed, and pg doing like 18592 TPS 2017-10-02T09:33:48Z dim: and the guys are like “well please fix pg it's too slow” 2017-10-02T09:33:49Z phoe: 1000 of SQL queries per single webpage? 2017-10-02T09:33:58Z dim: and you're like “please only run the queries you need?” 2017-10-02T09:34:04Z dim: phoe: that's a classic really, yes 2017-10-02T09:34:15Z phoe: I have no words. 2017-10-02T09:34:24Z beach: pjb: The thing is that there is a representation of (say) a stack that does not have the overhead of a list, and that still has bounded execution time (provided allocation is O(n) where n is the size of the block being allocated), but none of my colleagues had thought about it (including Algorithms and Data Structures experts) and no book talks about it. 2017-10-02T09:34:26Z dim: ingredients: team work, ORM, middleware APIs 2017-10-02T09:34:58Z dim: and then some dev loop over an API that fetches exactly one piece of what he needs at a time, in a very nice O(n) loop 2017-10-02T09:35:09Z dim: very well managed, memory optimization, all the things 2017-10-02T09:35:22Z dim: only each N is a SQL query... with a full network round-trip, etc 2017-10-02T09:35:34Z beach: Amazing. 2017-10-02T09:35:39Z dim: yeah 2017-10-02T09:35:56Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T09:36:00Z phoe: PEBPSAC 2017-10-02T09:36:09Z dim: most devs don't want to think about what they're doing 2017-10-02T09:36:15Z phoe: problem exists between postgres and chair 2017-10-02T09:36:20Z dim: or they think too much about the wrong thing 2017-10-02T09:36:23Z dim: phoe: hehe 2017-10-02T09:36:46Z geertvl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:36:55Z geertvl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-02T09:37:13Z dim: so I would love for someone to write a book about where to look, rather than about how to make something in particular as nice as possible wrt memory/cpu/... complexity 2017-10-02T09:37:34Z phoe: dim: tl;dr look at the slowest part of your code 2017-10-02T09:37:35Z dim: the 3% in the famous Knuth's quote 2017-10-02T09:38:18Z dim: Programmers waste enormous amounts of time thinking about, or worrying about, the speed of noncritical parts of their programs, and these attempts at efficiency actually have a strong negative impact when debugging and maintenance are considered. We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil. Yet we should not pass up our opportunities in that cr 2017-10-02T09:38:18Z dim: itical 3%. 2017-10-02T09:38:46Z phoe: make it work, make it correct, make it fast 2017-10-02T09:39:19Z dim: beach: so any algo book should begin with a lecture about “are you working on the 97% or the 3%? this book is only about those 3%, or about things you have *measured* to be worth spending quality time with” 2017-10-02T09:39:34Z dim: well, it's ony my opinion, of course 2017-10-02T09:39:38Z dim: only 2017-10-02T09:40:04Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:40:09Z beach: dim: I get your point. 2017-10-02T09:40:13Z phoe: dim: these 3% are going to be found in different places in each codebase though. 2017-10-02T09:40:40Z dim: phoe: of course, that's why we write version 1 then version 2 2017-10-02T09:40:43Z phoe: And it's pretty hard to generalize, other than things like "don't be worried about psql speed until you really start doing hundreds of queries per second". 2017-10-02T09:40:58Z pjb: Well arithmetic books don't tell you that you should not apply multiplication when you need the total length… 2017-10-02T09:41:01Z dim: make it clean, make it obvious 2017-10-02T09:41:10Z dim: only then make it fast, and only in cases when you need to 2017-10-02T09:41:33Z phoe: dim: I'd actually suggest to spend some focus on heuristics of where and how one can find these 3% in their codebase. 2017-10-02T09:41:49Z pjb: because, in some case, you may use multiplication actually. It's up to the user of algorithm, to think and understand when and how to apply them. 2017-10-02T09:42:00Z dim: I'm not writing such a book, I don't think I could 2017-10-02T09:42:14Z phoe: it would take a lot of collective knowledge to write one 2017-10-02T09:43:32Z dim: the book I'm writing is http://masteringpostgresql.com, it's quite a different one, even if it talks about performances to some degree and has the Knuth's quote in the Data Modeling chapter, in the Anti Patterns section ;-) 2017-10-02T09:43:52Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:43:57Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-02T09:44:05Z dim should now breathe and stop writing, maybe… 2017-10-02T09:48:06Z loke: dim: How so? 2017-10-02T09:48:13Z loke: dim: Which quote? 2017-10-02T09:48:22Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-02T09:48:53Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T09:49:24Z dim: the Knuth one about premature optimization being the root of all evil 2017-10-02T09:50:49Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:54:22Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:55:05Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-02T09:55:55Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-02T09:56:07Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:56:07Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2017-10-02T09:56:07Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:57:06Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T09:57:16Z jackdaniel: I think that nowdays we see the other side of the coin - sloppy programming being the root of abstraction overflow (leading to having slightly better software on tremendously better hardware in comparison to '80) 2017-10-02T09:58:02Z nika_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-02T09:58:20Z shka: more like: "let's make it as convoluted and complicated as humanly possible" 2017-10-02T09:58:23Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:59:19Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T09:59:51Z shka: you will need http server for starting application, and we will block this thread and start another process that will be waiting in the event loop 2017-10-02T10:00:00Z dim: beach: resuming to read your paper (lispos), very nice read! thx 2017-10-02T10:03:25Z phoe: beach: I remember that I need to read Clordane. I will do it, eventually. 2017-10-02T10:05:07Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:05:33Z beach: dim: Thanks! 2017-10-02T10:07:29Z beach: phoe: No rush. I am not working on it right now. 2017-10-02T10:08:15Z beach: I have said this before, but I say it again: The way I am currently working with the CST-to-AST system is very reassuring. I use sb-cover to check what code has been executed and what part has not. Then, for some code that has not been executed, I write a unit test. If the test doesn't pass, I work on the code until it does. Then I run the coverage again, making sure that the previously untested code has now been executed. Then I 2017-10-02T10:08:15Z beach: repeat the procedure. 2017-10-02T10:09:14Z phoe: beach: that sounds like a very sane way of using coverage tools. 2017-10-02T10:09:20Z dim: I wonder if the LispOS object store could be a PostgreSQL instance 2017-10-02T10:09:21Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:09:59Z phoe: dim: could be anything that implements the object store protocol with all its implications. 2017-10-02T10:10:19Z phoe: the biggest trouble I see is references to other objects. 2017-10-02T10:10:32Z dim: well PostgreSQL allows for “background workers” and advanced hooks in many places in the system, not just SQL level triggers 2017-10-02T10:10:41Z phoe: since these sound very much like pointers, which aren't directly translatable into SQL. 2017-10-02T10:10:54Z dim: so we could easily enough have SBCL (or another one) run as a PostgreSQL background worker and implement whatever we need 2017-10-02T10:11:20Z dim: and SQL queries could then hook into the SBCL instance when needed 2017-10-02T10:11:36Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:11:40Z phoe: dim: biggest issue: this needs to be transparent to the user. 2017-10-02T10:11:48Z dim: define transparent? 2017-10-02T10:12:00Z phoe: so you'll literally need to store all of SBCL objects in PostgreSQL in the naïve case. 2017-10-02T10:12:25Z shka: dim: or foreign data wrapper 2017-10-02T10:12:41Z dim: the LispOS Object Store seems to be more about the meta-data, IIUC 2017-10-02T10:12:42Z phoe: like, we make a cons and reference it somewhere. This cons now needs to be stored in postgres, and the reference to this cons needs to be stored as well. 2017-10-02T10:12:52Z shka: phoe: no 2017-10-02T10:12:54Z phoe: actually let me have another look at the paper. 2017-10-02T10:13:02Z dim: the main storage could be separately handled 2017-10-02T10:13:08Z shka: phoe: it does not have to be stored in postgres 2017-10-02T10:13:11Z phoe: but then we go back to the idea of primary and secondary memory. 2017-10-02T10:13:13Z dim: having a transactionnal catalog is a nice property in general 2017-10-02T10:13:25Z dim: then you can have a signature based storage 2017-10-02T10:13:27Z shka: it is possible i think 2017-10-02T10:13:28Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T10:13:38Z dim: key/value lisp storage where the key is e.g. a sha1 of the object/value 2017-10-02T10:13:43Z shka: not exactly easy, but possible 2017-10-02T10:13:49Z dim: the data store registers the key only 2017-10-02T10:14:06Z dim: and it's then “easy” to implement undo 2017-10-02T10:14:18Z dim: as easy as in an immutable data store with a transactional catalog 2017-10-02T10:16:11Z shka: so not easy at all :D 2017-10-02T10:16:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:16:25Z dim: the filename is then only one of the attributes, an can change and have an history that is independant of the content of the file, so you can even have the same file with different names in different environments/applications/user processes, which is nice 2017-10-02T10:17:02Z dim: different names means also that the same file may exists in different “places” (directories?) at the same time, more relational than hierarchical 2017-10-02T10:17:13Z dim: which is a nice property of the LispOS proposal, again, IIUC 2017-10-02T10:19:01Z dim: beach: did you have a look at an immutable data store for LispOS in order to simplify “undo” implementations? 2017-10-02T10:19:44Z dim: related, https://joearms.github.io/published/2015-03-12-The_web_of_names.html 2017-10-02T10:20:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T10:25:53Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:28:49Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:29:23Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:33:01Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T10:33:48Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:34:06Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T10:34:15Z phoe: Can I define an ASDF system named FOO/BAR? 2017-10-02T10:35:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-02T10:35:44Z jackdaniel: yes, but it needs to be in file foo.asd 2017-10-02T10:36:05Z jackdaniel: it should work in asdf 3.1.x onwards I think 2017-10-02T10:36:30Z phoe: Troublesome for me. 2017-10-02T10:36:48Z phoe: I want to define a system SKIPPY/RENDERER - would this need to be in a file skippy.asd then? 2017-10-02T10:37:02Z phoe: Note that I want to do it outside of SKIPPY's own ASD file. 2017-10-02T10:37:13Z Shinmera: Just use dashes 2017-10-02T10:37:15Z jackdaniel: if you want to have a proper system definition, then yes 2017-10-02T10:37:29Z jackdaniel: skippy-renderer in skippy-renderer.asd should do the trick (as Shinmera pointed out) 2017-10-02T10:37:37Z phoe: Dashes it is then. 2017-10-02T10:40:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T10:43:43Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-02T10:47:32Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-02T11:00:19Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-02T11:01:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:08:20Z nika_ quit 2017-10-02T11:09:21Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T11:12:03Z scymtym: this can be useful for defining foo and foo/test in foo.asd, though 2017-10-02T11:12:38Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:13:35Z marvin3 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:14:43Z beach: dim: Sorry, I was away. Mondays are crazy around here. 2017-10-02T11:15:13Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:15:46Z beach: dim: I haven't thought too much about undo, but I know it is not enough to have it in the data store. Each application would have to implement undo as well. Not every object in an application would be in the data store. 2017-10-02T11:15:50Z dim: no pb, IRC is async anyway 2017-10-02T11:16:22Z dim: immutable objects in the store won't solve undo by itself, totally agreed 2017-10-02T11:16:29Z dim: it makes it simple to reason about, that said 2017-10-02T11:16:49Z dim: (I think) 2017-10-02T11:17:26Z beach: dim: I also don't know the implications of the object store that I am thinking of being based on an SQL database. 2017-10-02T11:20:05Z Ichimusai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:20:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:21:37Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:22:14Z beach: My thinking so far is like this: To collect all entries corresponding to some criteria, one would define a function (lambda (&key ... &allow-other-keys) ...) that would return a Boolean when applied to the keys in the object store. If the function returns true, then the entry is collected. 2017-10-02T11:23:13Z Ichimusai joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:23:38Z phoe: beach: so basically a remove-if-not predicate 2017-10-02T11:23:52Z beach: Pretty much. 2017-10-02T11:23:58Z beach: So for instance I could define (lambda (&key type date author) (and (eq type 'email) (< lower data upper) (eq author sven))) 2017-10-02T11:24:02Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:24:22Z dim: I was more thinking (out loud) in terms of the object store having ACID properties, and about the relational model for attributes being a goot fit, possibly 2017-10-02T11:24:34Z dim: but really I think I'm just too used to think in pgsql terms here 2017-10-02T11:25:06Z beach: Yeah, I don't know how to combine the two. I need to think about it some more. 2017-10-02T11:26:34Z beach: The object store I have been thinking of so far is more like a file system, but without the restrictions of a Unix-like file system, so not just byte-sequence files, not a hierarchy, etc. 2017-10-02T11:26:36Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:30:33Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:33:41Z phoe: Which ASD file should I look at for a good example of ASDF modules? 2017-10-02T11:33:58Z pjb: one which contains module definitions. 2017-10-02T11:34:34Z phoe: pjb: yes, I'm looking for a file which contains module definitions. 2017-10-02T11:34:39Z Shinmera: Modules are just subdirectories. What more do you need to know? 2017-10-02T11:34:54Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:35:08Z phoe: Can I declare system dependencies in modules, or only in the DEFSYSTEM toplevel? 2017-10-02T11:35:13Z pjb: find ~/quicklisp -name \*.asd -exec grep -nHi :module {} + 2017-10-02T11:35:30Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:35:35Z pjb: phoe: so you don't speak unix… 2017-10-02T11:36:12Z Shinmera: If you think you need to make the system dependencies part of the module, you probably should make multiple systems instead. 2017-10-02T11:36:25Z phoe: pjb: thanks. 2017-10-02T11:36:29Z shka: beach: why not just large prolog database? 2017-10-02T11:36:45Z phoe: Shinmera: hm. I see. 2017-10-02T11:37:06Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-02T11:37:22Z dim: beach: a good alternative to the 70s hierarchical organisation is the relational model, but it means changing the key/value attributes idea in your paper (or EAV design) into a proper relational model 2017-10-02T11:37:54Z dim: with a relational model it should be trivial to have a file appear in several “directories” (or listings) depending on criteria such as the attributes 2017-10-02T11:38:21Z dim: or flags / colors / keywords (manual or automatics with document scanners) 2017-10-02T11:38:40Z phoe: Should I define multiple systems in one ASD file? If not, how can I make sure that ASDF finds all the ASD files? 2017-10-02T11:39:01Z Shinmera: You should not 2017-10-02T11:39:08Z dim: but to have the proper model for that you need to think about the use cases, and it seems that your target audience isn't the end-user but rather app developers 2017-10-02T11:39:09Z Shinmera: And you do that by telling ASDF where they are, what else 2017-10-02T11:39:46Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:39:51Z dim: Shinmera: ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/*.conf ? 2017-10-02T11:40:08Z phoe: In layman's terms, should I create multiple .asd files in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo-project/ ? 2017-10-02T11:40:18Z pjb: yes, that's what I'd do. 2017-10-02T11:40:38Z phoe: Okay. 2017-10-02T11:40:40Z Shinmera: Well, since you were talking about modules, I'd put each asd file in the respective folder of its sources. 2017-10-02T11:41:03Z Shinmera: But other people do it differently than I, so whatever 2017-10-02T11:41:03Z phoe: Shinmera: does ASDF walk directories recursively in search for ASD files? 2017-10-02T11:41:11Z pjb: Modules don't necessarily correspond to the subdirectories. 2017-10-02T11:41:20Z phoe: In my case, they do, so I'd like that. 2017-10-02T11:41:27Z pjb: You can have modules for variants of your products. 2017-10-02T11:41:29Z Shinmera: It does if you configure it to. Quicklisp only does a recursive update of local-projects if you do an explicit update. 2017-10-02T11:41:56Z phoe: Hm. I see. 2017-10-02T11:42:37Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:42:49Z beach: shka: sure, why not. 2017-10-02T11:42:51Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:44:02Z beach: dim: I am worried what happens if I store a list in such a database, and the GC decides to move the CONS cells. Would it have to traverse the entire database and change the pointers? 2017-10-02T11:45:02Z phoe: beach: define "move" - you mean, compact in memory? 2017-10-02T11:45:08Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:45:16Z beach: Compact or copy or some other GC algorithm. 2017-10-02T11:45:23Z phoe: How would GC work in PostgreSQL's case, anyway? 2017-10-02T11:45:32Z beach: That is what I am asking. 2017-10-02T11:45:33Z phoe: We still have a linear mapping from memory addreses to objects, right? 2017-10-02T11:45:47Z phoe: Because that's the basic assumption under which modern GCs operate. 2017-10-02T11:46:18Z pjb: You'd need to save the root set in a table, and then you could implement the GC in a stored procedure. 2017-10-02T11:46:27Z jackdaniel: s/modern/some/ 2017-10-02T11:46:35Z phoe: (incf jackdaniel) 2017-10-02T11:47:03Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:47:47Z beach: phoe: That may not be true. There could be different memory pools, etc. But the important part here is what the GC needs to do if some of its objects are stored in a relational database. 2017-10-02T11:49:01Z nowolfer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:49:36Z phoe: beach: Sounds like issuing SQL updates and deletes. 2017-10-02T11:49:46Z phoe: That's the first thing that comes to my mind. 2017-10-02T11:50:07Z beach: phoe: How does the GC know that some object is stored in a relational database? 2017-10-02T11:50:35Z phoe: beach: that's the fundamental design question. 2017-10-02T11:51:20Z beach: dim: You see, what I know about relational databases dates from several decades ago, when you could only store simple data objects in a relational database, and when you had to invent manual pointers in the form of unique identifiers. I can imagine that things are very different nowadays. 2017-10-02T11:51:23Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:51:48Z dim: quite 2017-10-02T11:52:31Z dim: and I'm not sure pgsql makes any sense in the context of LispOS 2017-10-02T11:52:52Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:53:08Z beach: I have a visitor coming in less than 10 minutes, so I'll be off for a while, but if you could explain the basic thing about storing Common Lisp objects in a relational database to me sometime later, I would appreciate it. 2017-10-02T11:53:11Z dim: but the ACID properties for the Data Store, and the relational model / thinking for the attributes and for managing a collection of objects, yes 2017-10-02T11:53:26Z beach: OK. 2017-10-02T11:53:32Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:53:36Z phoe: Is there any way to point ASDF from "root" ASD file that it should also read the ASDF files in this or that subdirectory of the project directory tree? 2017-10-02T11:53:45Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-02T11:53:56Z beach: I guess I no longer know what "the relational model" implies because of my dated knowledge. 2017-10-02T11:53:57Z dim: I'll try to mature the gut feeling into something that we would be able to discus, later, if you will 2017-10-02T11:53:59Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T11:54:06Z beach: That would be great! 2017-10-02T11:54:34Z Shinmera: Since one of the core points of a LispOS is a unified address space and automated offloading of data as required, I don't see why you would need any extra stuff for the "file system" other than an index to reach certain objects with. 2017-10-02T11:54:35Z phoe: I'm still puzzled about how the sub-ASD files should be found by ASDF. I don't want to do some ASDF configuration magic either since my users likely won't want to do it. 2017-10-02T11:55:07Z Shinmera: If it's in local-projects, (ql:register-local-projects) 2017-10-02T11:55:13Z beach: Shinmera: It is about naming things so that you can share them, sort them, organize them, etc. 2017-10-02T11:55:14Z Shinmera: If it's from QL itself, nothing. 2017-10-02T11:55:28Z dim: Shinmera: the index might have several “dimensions” 2017-10-02T11:55:39Z shka: how to describe contract about class when multimethods are used 2017-10-02T11:55:54Z phoe: shka: what do you mean, contract about class? 2017-10-02T11:55:56Z shka: "implements method" is just wrong 2017-10-02T11:56:20Z beach: shka: The contract is related to the generic function, not the class. You are still in Java mode it seems. 2017-10-02T11:56:22Z nowolfer joined #lisp 2017-10-02T11:56:32Z shka: phoe: i mean that object that you are passing here will be called with generic function that is dispatched on two classes at once 2017-10-02T11:56:34Z dim: Shinmera: think user-defined tags with different users using different sets of tags ontop of the same collection of objects; and the best way to implement a generic system of indexing on-top oof that 2017-10-02T11:56:47Z dim: Shinmera: my gut feeling is that we're re-inventing a relational data model here 2017-10-02T11:57:18Z Shinmera: dim: I don't really get that feeling. All I see is a bunch of indexes. 2017-10-02T11:57:36Z dim: yeah. that's what a relational database is, a bunch of indexes ;-) 2017-10-02T11:57:51Z Shinmera: I'd say an RDBMS does a bit more than that. 2017-10-02T11:58:10Z phoe: what is a database? a miserable little pile of indices 2017-10-02T11:58:16Z dim: it is a very generic way to address many different sets of problems 2017-10-02T11:58:30Z hajovonta: what about no-sql databases? 2017-10-02T11:58:47Z Shinmera: What about them 2017-10-02T11:59:46Z hajovonta: the question was could postgresql be used with lispos, did anyone consider nosql for this purpose and is there any paper accessible on that? 2017-10-02T12:00:12Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-02T12:00:43Z Shinmera: You can't compare an implementation of an RDBMS to a db paradigm. 2017-10-02T12:01:19Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T12:01:21Z dim: it was my mistake to propose pgsql as part of the lispos implementation 2017-10-02T12:01:33Z hajovonta: I'm happy to admit I'm no expert in this field by any means, so my question may seem a bit... ignorant 2017-10-02T12:01:45Z dim: while it would help solving several problems, it might not be the best way to have at it 2017-10-02T12:01:58Z dim: hajovonta: and nosql is too vague to be useful to talk about 2017-10-02T12:02:58Z shka: beach: that does not help me actually 2017-10-02T12:03:31Z shka: i am mentally in the multiple dispatch land, i just don't have words :/ 2017-10-02T12:03:57Z lieven: some of the people who did Statice on Symbolics later worked on the Objectstore OODB. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-02T13:46:39Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-02T13:47:52Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T13:48:57Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-10-02T13:49:35Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T13:50:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T13:52:37Z saki quit (Quit: saki) 2017-10-02T13:53:49Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T13:54:13Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-02T13:57:18Z whyNOP joined #lisp 2017-10-02T13:58:09Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T13:59:29Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T14:00:42Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:01:11Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:05:33Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:06:05Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:07:07Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T14:09:25Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-02T14:10:08Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T14:13:32Z brit joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:14:12Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:14:18Z beach: dim: Again, I will be perfectly happy to consider a relational model as long as I am convinced that it will fit the purpose. But I don't know the current definition of "the relational model", so I need to consider some arguments on both sides. 2017-10-02T14:16:43Z beach goes to read up on "the relational model". 2017-10-02T14:19:59Z beach: I may have (incorrectly) assumed that "the relational model" implies SQL, which I now know (after reading a bit) is not so. 2017-10-02T14:21:00Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T14:21:35Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:22:59Z dim: read about normalization, if you're interested 2017-10-02T14:23:20Z dim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization 2017-10-02T14:23:27Z beach: OK, thanks. 2017-10-02T14:23:35Z dim: you don't need SQL or an SQL engine to think in the relational model 2017-10-02T14:23:48Z dim: also I think your current model is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity–attribute–value_model 2017-10-02T14:23:56Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:23:59Z dim: which in the relational world is known as the worst possible 2017-10-02T14:24:07Z dim: but the most versatile / generic 2017-10-02T14:24:22Z beach: Hmm. 2017-10-02T14:24:35Z beach: Why is it considered the worst possible? 2017-10-02T14:25:05Z beach feels this discussion is going to teach him a lot. 2017-10-02T14:25:19Z beach: ... or at least the reading that has to be done as a result of it. 2017-10-02T14:25:24Z dim: because it is too generic to then make sense of anything in there 2017-10-02T14:25:41Z dim: only the application storing things in the EAV knows what to do with it 2017-10-02T14:25:53Z dim: no other app has any idea of what the attribute name might need 2017-10-02T14:26:26Z dim: in the Object Store case, you might want to “normalize” some of the attributes at least, like the filename, the mime type, size, location or address, etc 2017-10-02T14:26:34Z beach: Definitely. 2017-10-02T14:26:40Z phoe: these are going to stay, yes 2017-10-02T14:26:45Z dim: maybe you want some application specific attributes also 2017-10-02T14:26:50Z beach: Others should be free form. 2017-10-02T14:26:53Z phoe: but I think that the user will have an ability to create their own tags. 2017-10-02T14:26:56Z dim: well not really free form 2017-10-02T14:27:08Z beach: OK, not form, but interpretation. 2017-10-02T14:27:22Z beach: :mood :terrible on a picture for instance. 2017-10-02T14:27:28Z dim: I think lispos should provide a “framework” so that application can enrich the meta-data model/store, but still cooperate easily 2017-10-02T14:27:32Z phoe: at which point some tags are fixed, as in, they will appear for sure, but some are arbitrarily set 2017-10-02T14:27:34Z beach: There should be nothing preventing the user from storing such a thing. 2017-10-02T14:27:39Z dim: if you want to enable cooperation, you need structure 2017-10-02T14:27:49Z dim: EAV is as far away from structure as you can imagine 2017-10-02T14:28:18Z beach: The object store as I have seen it is not meant for collaboration between applications, but I am willing to change my mind about that. 2017-10-02T14:28:24Z dim: beach: in the ideal case all apps on the lispos are able to interpret :mood in the same way 2017-10-02T14:28:36Z dim: and some of them even share the :terrible meaning 2017-10-02T14:29:02Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:29:05Z phoe: probably depends on the convention used or set by the system 2017-10-02T14:29:07Z beach: I see your point, and, as you pointed out, some of them need to be normalized. 2017-10-02T14:29:09Z dim: well for the filename, address, mime type, size, you want to enforce a single common meaning that every app needs to follow 2017-10-02T14:29:16Z beach: Absolutely. 2017-10-02T14:29:24Z dim: the relational model forces you to think about the whole attributes that way 2017-10-02T14:29:38Z beach: Except that there is not a concept of a "file name". 2017-10-02T14:29:39Z dim: if you can't solve that problem, fine, punt, but document it and why 2017-10-02T14:29:39Z phoe: for keyword keys, I can see this being required - but if someone wants to set an attribute for key foo-custom-package::%secret-symbol, I don't think it would be required 2017-10-02T14:29:47Z beach: Nor address by the way. 2017-10-02T14:29:55Z dim: “extension points” might be a term 2017-10-02T14:30:02Z f278f1b2 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:30:11Z phoe: basically a protocol for "file" metadata 2017-10-02T14:30:28Z phoe: whatever "file" might mean in such context. 2017-10-02T14:30:35Z phoe: or rather, for object metadata. 2017-10-02T14:30:38Z dim: yeah, and relational model then allows to have high quality data, well maintained, without duplicates and divergence 2017-10-02T14:30:46Z dim: first normal form is a must 2017-10-02T14:31:09Z beach: How is "mime type" useful in a LispOS? 2017-10-02T14:31:35Z dim: for users to choose a custom application to process a known content? 2017-10-02T14:31:47Z dim: in debian there's /etc/alternatives and things 2017-10-02T14:31:49Z phoe: you want to know if this stream of bytes is an AES256 encrypted archive or a music file or a photo or Lisp source code 2017-10-02T14:32:07Z beach: I would think the type would be determined by (class-of ). No? 2017-10-02T14:32:17Z phoe: hm. 2017-10-02T14:32:24Z phoe: that sounds somewhat sane. 2017-10-02T14:32:29Z beach: phoe: Stream of bytes? How Unix-y. 2017-10-02T14:32:34Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:32:40Z phoe: and then you could have a mapping between classes and mimetypes for applications that require it. 2017-10-02T14:32:44Z phoe: beach: :P 2017-10-02T14:32:45Z dim: beach: it seems to me that your target audience is a CL programmer, only, and we are still thinking in terms of end-users that only, you know, use an already written application 2017-10-02T14:33:08Z beach: phoe: The entire point of LispOS is to get away from untyped streams of bytes. 2017-10-02T14:33:30Z phoe: beach: I see. Then I'm wrong. 2017-10-02T14:33:43Z beach: dim: I don't see that, but I might be wrong. 2017-10-02T14:34:02Z phoe: CLASS-OF sounds like a decent solution. 2017-10-02T14:34:27Z beach: I just meant that the type of an object is determined by Lisp, because it is an instance of some class. There is no need to mark byte streams as containing some encoding of an object. At least not in the beginning. 2017-10-02T14:34:48Z beach: The objects in the object store will be first-class Common Lisp objects. 2017-10-02T14:35:23Z pjb: Object stores store objects, not bytes. 2017-10-02T14:36:03Z beach: Exactly. And in this case, "store" is not quite true, because nothing is moved. It is only marked with identifying metadata. 2017-10-02T14:36:22Z DingoSaar_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T14:36:45Z beach: Though, the object can be stored as it is, and one could search for all movies, for instance (no matter the author, length, language, etc.) 2017-10-02T14:36:59Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T14:38:14Z phoe: So... object index? 2017-10-02T14:38:24Z beach: Index? 2017-10-02T14:38:27Z beach: What is that? 2017-10-02T14:38:36Z phoe: I mean - you're not storing anything, so it's not a store. 2017-10-02T14:38:44Z phoe: You're gathering metadata. 2017-10-02T14:38:55Z beach: Yes, index in that sense. Yes. 2017-10-02T14:39:11Z phoe: So you're basically creating Yellow Pages, except with Lisp objects and not companies. 2017-10-02T14:39:36Z beach: Sure, that sounds right. 2017-10-02T14:40:11Z phoe: Store, in this context, got me fooled. 2017-10-02T14:40:27Z dim: which is why I think the relational model applies, btw 2017-10-02T14:40:31Z phoe: Since I actually thought that you'd be storing them, as in, placing them in their bytestream form somewhere. 2017-10-02T14:40:40Z dim: you're “organizing” existing objects 2017-10-02T14:41:03Z dim: and at the moment the whole organisation system is a set of key/values 2017-10-02T14:41:14Z phoe: you have MongoDB. 2017-10-02T14:41:15Z dim: maybe there's something smarter to do there 2017-10-02T14:41:17Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:41:17Z phoe ducks 2017-10-02T14:41:23Z beach: dim: I don't see many situations where an application would find its object through the object store. 2017-10-02T14:41:39Z dim: the “Finder” app maybe? 2017-10-02T14:41:46Z beach: Yes, exactly. 2017-10-02T14:42:01Z phoe: music player? video player? document writer? 2017-10-02T14:42:15Z beach: An editor would take a text string as an input. A score editor would take a score. A music player would take a music object, etc. 2017-10-02T14:42:19Z hooman: clim has presentations for that 2017-10-02T14:42:32Z phoe: These would have some music/video/media/document libraries though, I imagine. 2017-10-02T14:42:39Z dim: beach: those might want to open existing objects that are not yet “loaded”? 2017-10-02T14:42:41Z beach: hooman: I think how they are presented is somewhat orthogonal. 2017-10-02T14:42:57Z phoe: Like, you have a hundred music albums on your hard drive, and you want Rolling Stones. 2017-10-02T14:43:14Z phoe: I bet that you access that particular album through the object store, searching it for music from "Rolling Stones". 2017-10-02T14:43:16Z beach: dim: Possibly. But I tend to think that this functionality would be concentrated into a single application. 2017-10-02T14:43:17Z hooman: i wonder if we could just why not go full nix, and present objects with arbitrary processes, x11 style. 2017-10-02T14:43:56Z beach: hooman: Unix-style processes? 2017-10-02T14:43:57Z dim: finding objects in the store would be the responsibility of a single app, that others app might use and then work with the full CL object given to them? 2017-10-02T14:44:17Z beach: Yes, I think so. 2017-10-02T14:44:21Z dim: I like that it avoids re-inventing all the basics I/O every time ;-) 2017-10-02T14:44:47Z beach: A lot of factoring can be done when one abandons the Unix model. 2017-10-02T14:44:56Z dim: also it allows to have a very clean “internal” representation for objects in the store, and a full design other than EAV might be relevant 2017-10-02T14:45:05Z hooman: beach, yeah. arbitrary input/output, we can echo to the sound card device and such; now its up to the user and how the pieces are plugged together. (Pd/Max?) 2017-10-02T14:45:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-02T14:45:34Z beach: hooman: I think you might have missed the beginning of this discussion. :) 2017-10-02T14:46:18Z hooman: sorry =) now i am thinking that things were simpler when we just trusted each other, and all our programs lived happily together 2017-10-02T14:46:20Z beach: See section 1.2.1 in this document: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2017-10-02T14:46:36Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T14:46:39Z hooman: ohhhhh, ty! 2017-10-02T14:46:59Z beach: hooman: You are misunderstanding. Not using processes does not mean that one has to have full trust. 2017-10-02T14:47:30Z hooman: beach, i mean the days of no memory protection and such. when apps can really talk to each other whether they like it or not 2017-10-02T14:47:34Z beach: hooman: Processes represent one solution to the problem, but it has SOOO many disadvantages, and it is way overkill. 2017-10-02T14:47:54Z beach: hooman: And I am not advocating that. 2017-10-02T14:48:23Z hooman: i did not mean to advocate unix processes, but only when someone is mentioning mime types and object stores, it feels like a layer over too much already, whatever the discussion was 2017-10-02T14:49:03Z beach: hooman: It is not a layer over anything. It is a way to escape from all those Unix stupidities. 2017-10-02T14:49:09Z hooman: sidenote, erlang feels like a mini unix land, with all its processes and how they both succeed and fail regardless of their supervisions/init 2017-10-02T14:50:00Z hooman: mime types is not a layer ? i mean... i mentioned clim presentations because well. method dispatch would make stuff automatic and natural, without having to keep more databases in sync, which is the layers of potential trouble 2017-10-02T14:50:13Z beach: Interpret "object store" not as something that stores objects to disk, but as a "store", i.e. a "shop" where you can pick out the objects you want. 2017-10-02T14:50:30Z hooman: if the objects/closures come with their own way to edit/view themselves ? 2017-10-02T14:50:37Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-02T14:50:48Z hooman: yep, i am thinking, filesystem 2017-10-02T14:51:04Z beach: What do you mean by objects/closures? It sounds like you are confusing the two. 2017-10-02T14:51:22Z hooman: i am not sure that we really need or even *can* invent new solutions to old problems that have already been solved 2017-10-02T14:51:43Z beach: Oh, then I should definitely quit my job. 2017-10-02T14:51:44Z hooman: beach, sorry that was a reference to a joke in a sister channel. i mean Objects. like EO of nextstep kind 2017-10-02T14:52:19Z hooman: if we admit it to ourselves, we could solve our clients/bosses problems without any work and for free. but we need something to do anyways ! 2017-10-02T14:52:51Z hooman: i wonder how clim/genera does with its filesystem and object store? i read somewhere that Mac resource forks were inspired by there somewhere 2017-10-02T14:56:49Z beach: dim: Maybe one way forward is to come up with "scenarios", i.e. use case situations, and then see how they would be dealt with in a relational model. 2017-10-02T14:57:20Z phoe: beach: sounds pretty good. I'd brainstorm that. 2017-10-02T14:57:29Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T14:57:38Z beach: I'll try to work on some and submit them here. 2017-10-02T14:57:42Z dim: beach: yes, usually that's how a relational model is built, it needs use cases 2017-10-02T14:57:51Z beach: Good. 2017-10-02T14:57:57Z dim: it can't exists without a definite set of problems to solve 2017-10-02T14:58:10Z phoe: dim: as for custom tags, you can have a three-column table: object ID (key), key, value. 2017-10-02T14:58:34Z phoe: so you can have #(# :mood :terrible) 2017-10-02T14:58:37Z dim: and now it's even worse, phoe, because the key isn't unique anymore 2017-10-02T14:58:49Z phoe: wait. damn! 2017-10-02T14:59:02Z phoe: you're right, there's no key there. you'd need four columns. 2017-10-02T14:59:02Z dim: but have a look at RDF if you want that kind of flexibility 2017-10-02T14:59:28Z dim: RDF is a “triplet” based model for data, used mainly for making graphs IIUC 2017-10-02T14:59:39Z dim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Description_Framework 2017-10-02T14:59:55Z hooman: =/ 2017-10-02T15:00:08Z phoe: dim: I wonder about beach's idea of tags. 2017-10-02T15:00:16Z phoe: And if it actually fits the relational model. 2017-10-02T15:00:23Z dim: it is way too generic for my taste, but maybe what's needed here is that generic 2017-10-02T15:00:37Z dim: tags is an association table in the relational model 2017-10-02T15:01:06Z dim: object - association - tag, where you can add and remove tags as you will, either per application, per user or some other association keys 2017-10-02T15:01:12Z phoe: it's a many-to-many-to-many. 2017-10-02T15:01:22Z hooman: what are you doing 2017-10-02T15:01:26Z phoe: because for arbitrary objects you can have arbitrary keys with arbitrary values. 2017-10-02T15:01:28Z phoe: hooman: discussing 2017-10-02T15:02:04Z hooman: more so wondering what you are discussing and why 2017-10-02T15:02:48Z phoe: hooman: https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2017-10.txt is the backlog - you can read up on it 2017-10-02T15:02:50Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:03:13Z hooman: okay thank you . 2017-10-02T15:03:37Z phoe: in general, https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/ has logs from multiple channels. 2017-10-02T15:06:16Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:07:46Z fluxit joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:10:20Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:10:46Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:19:03Z zhormistr quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-02T15:25:02Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:27:44Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-02T15:29:07Z dim: Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS 2017-10-02T15:29:24Z dim: mmm, the SBCL package in alpine linux looks “interesting” 2017-10-02T15:29:24Z arduo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T15:29:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:31:05Z f278f1b2 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-02T15:40:51Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-02T15:41:13Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:43:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:46:38Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:50:21Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:50:46Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-02T15:51:32Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:52:40Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:53:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:53:56Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-02T15:55:16Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:58:12Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:58:17Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:59:32Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T15:59:39Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T15:59:41Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T16:00:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:04:50Z beach: dim: I am thinking of descriptions like this: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf document page 41, PDF page 45 (Appendix A). Would that be suitable? 2017-10-02T16:05:00Z beach: I have only just started of course. 2017-10-02T16:07:00Z pjb: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf?physical-page=45&logical-page=41§ion=Appendix%20A 2017-10-02T16:07:19Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:07:47Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T16:11:05Z beach: pjb: Thanks! 2017-10-02T16:13:46Z pjb: beach: not necessarily a good idea, if those url components are not taken into account. 2017-10-02T16:13:56Z pjb: It would depend on the "browser" or pdf viewer… 2017-10-02T16:14:05Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T16:14:46Z hsu joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:17:11Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:18:29Z beach: Yeah, the idea was good, but it didn't work here (Firefox). 2017-10-02T16:19:24Z pjb: # anchors may work, but the pdf document would have to be designed with such anchor, and again, the browser would have to interpret them for pdf documents. 2017-10-02T16:20:23Z beach: I see. I probably didn't put anchors in this particular document. :( 2017-10-02T16:21:30Z DingoSaar_ is now known as DingoSaar 2017-10-02T16:21:31Z pjb: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/13427302/linking-from-a-web-page-to-a-specific-section-anchor-in-pdf-document 2017-10-02T16:21:33Z beach: dim: GAH, I did almost no work on Cleavir today, and it's all your fault. :) 2017-10-02T16:21:49Z pjb: the 3rd option may work: http://www.scala-lang.org/docu/files/ScalaReference.pdf#page=23 2017-10-02T16:22:00Z pjb: I assume it's the physical page, ie. 45 in your case. 2017-10-02T16:22:12Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-02T16:22:37Z pjb: But browsers don't do it: Any OS, Firefox 15+ PDF.js internal PDF viewer - does not work 2017-10-02T16:22:41Z pjb: only Acrobat reader… 2017-10-02T16:22:47Z dim: beach: sorry! 2017-10-02T16:22:56Z beach: dim: Joking. 2017-10-02T16:22:57Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-02T16:23:17Z beach: dim: It was a very valuable discussion, and I am hoping for more to come. 2017-10-02T16:23:20Z pjb: I guess we can put it on the unix philosophy. If urls were objects on lispos, it'd probably work. 2017-10-02T16:23:53Z dim: beach: thanks! 2017-10-02T16:24:12Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T16:25:12Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:25:41Z sellout-1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T16:30:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-02T16:31:53Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:33:37Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T16:33:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:35:24Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:35:44Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T16:35:49Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:47:49Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:52:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:54:57Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-02T16:57:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T17:00:44Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:01:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T17:08:43Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:11:17Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:13:35Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T17:15:04Z turkja quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-02T17:15:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T17:16:10Z phoe: dim: interesting? 2017-10-02T17:16:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:19:47Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:20:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:23:44Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T17:25:19Z dim: phoe: compiled without sb-bsd-sockets apparently 2017-10-02T17:28:32Z phoe: dim: woah 2017-10-02T17:28:38Z phoe: did someone know how to compile SBCL there? 2017-10-02T17:28:41Z phoe: like, with --fancy? 2017-10-02T17:30:13Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:33:18Z koenig: phoe: There are instructions at the top level of the tarball that tell how to recompile. 2017-10-02T17:34:11Z koenig: The file is called INSTALL. There's "Quick start" for the binary distribution option and then instructions for building from source. 2017-10-02T17:36:32Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:39:38Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:40:34Z dim: https://git.alpinelinux.org/cgit/aports/tree/testing/sbcl/APKBUILD?id=ca92cb7079bf7b03137449e0104fc2591663dede 2017-10-02T17:41:52Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:45:21Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T17:46:36Z nika quit 2017-10-02T17:49:14Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:49:48Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T17:51:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T17:53:22Z brit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T17:54:36Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T18:10:25Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T18:12:18Z fe[nl]ix has set mode -t 2017-10-02T18:12:36Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-02T18:13:28Z jmercouris: hey, does anyone know how I can transform the following code using paredit: https://gist.github.com/679f59a02247c9e061d4e5f6f58c6e2c 2017-10-02T18:14:42Z scymtym: jmercouris: place point on second ( and press M-r (paredit-raise-sexp) 2017-10-02T18:15:10Z jmercouris: scymtym: thank you, I've been looking for that command forever 2017-10-02T18:15:13Z hooman: for me, its C-up 2017-10-02T18:15:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-02T18:15:27Z jmercouris: C-up is unfortunately bound to something on my OS, so I cant use that 2017-10-02T18:15:50Z hooman: ahh =) 2017-10-02T18:16:46Z hooman: sorry, it is M-up, paredit-splice-sexp-killing-backward 2017-10-02T18:21:01Z zachk joined #lisp 2017-10-02T18:21:52Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T18:24:35Z hsu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-02T18:26:36Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T18:27:20Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2017-10-02T18:30:28Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-02T18:32:04Z zhormistr joined #lisp 2017-10-02T18:32:37Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T18:49:56Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-02T18:53:28Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-02T19:12:01Z WorldControl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T19:12:57Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-02T19:25:17Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-02T19:26:04Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T19:26:53Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-02T19:27:34Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T19:29:37Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-02T19:31:34Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-02T19:36:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T19:37:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-02T19:37:46Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T19:41:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-02T19:42:31Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-02T19:43:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-02T19:44:07Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-02T19:48:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T19:49:23Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-02T19:54:14Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-02T19:54:47Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-02T19:56:15Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T19:57:13Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:00:35Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T20:01:40Z renard_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:04:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T20:04:18Z agaric joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:05:58Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-02T20:08:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T20:11:10Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:18:01Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-02T20:18:18Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:19:49Z brit joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:20:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-02T20:20:36Z ryanbw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T20:20:42Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2017-10-02T20:23:57Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:24:58Z zhormistr quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-02T20:35:24Z agaric quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-02T20:35:55Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T20:35:55Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I keep getting stuck and then I don't want to ask in this chat because I'm embarrassed. 2017-10-02T23:18:08Z epony quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-02T23:18:22Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:19:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:21:46Z Bike: it's ok, we don't care. 2017-10-02T23:22:02Z Bike: do you mean bitvectors, or treating integers (numbers) as sequences of bits? 2017-10-02T23:22:59Z dim: sometimes the best way to learn new trick involves looking stupid for a short while 2017-10-02T23:23:11Z dim: beats staying stupid for longer ;-) 2017-10-02T23:23:25Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:23:35Z Bike: in any case, for bit vectors you use the sequence functions plus bit-and and such, and for integers you have ldb, dpb, logbitp, and logxor et al 2017-10-02T23:24:17Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-02T23:25:38Z Josh_2: I should take that to heart dim. 2017-10-02T23:26:17Z Josh_2: Well I am trying to make my own dns packets, so I'm manipulating unsigned-byte 8's 2017-10-02T23:26:34Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:26:44Z Xach: I have a library for dns queries. 2017-10-02T23:26:53Z Xach wonders where he put it 2017-10-02T23:27:08Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:27:53Z Xach: heh, RCS Id header indicates it's 10 years old now, whee! 2017-10-02T23:28:04Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:28:08Z dim: happy birthday lib? 2017-10-02T23:28:34Z Josh_2: There are a few DNS libraries, but this is more of a learning exercise for me. 2017-10-02T23:28:39Z dim: I guess 10 years old and still loads and runs like a charm 2017-10-02T23:28:51Z dim: that's one beauty of CL that I wish other systems had 2017-10-02T23:29:31Z Xach: dim: it does rely on some ffi in sbcl, but it uses sb-alien, so it probably does still work. 2017-10-02T23:29:44Z Xach: dim: and of course the packet parsing and construction can be done in plain old lisp 2017-10-02T23:29:58Z Xach: https://www.xach.com/tmp/dns.lisp 2017-10-02T23:30:10Z nalik891 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T23:30:49Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:33:05Z dim: no ipv6? 2017-10-02T23:33:26Z Xach: that will be for when it turns 20 2017-10-02T23:33:37Z dim: that means something's left to hack for Josh_2, maybe ;-) 2017-10-02T23:33:51Z dim: ipv6 is more than 20 I believe 2017-10-02T23:34:05Z dim: (couldn't resist) 2017-10-02T23:34:16Z Bike: Josh_2: vectors of bytes? i mean, what operations are you doing on them? 2017-10-02T23:35:20Z dim: I have that usual joke on people using SQL'92 to this day (rather than SQL'2016, the current standard revision), where 92 saw inventions of Unicode and ipv6, that everybody's using right? so why sticking to SQL'92 after all... 2017-10-02T23:35:30Z jasom: clhs ldb 2017-10-02T23:35:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm 2017-10-02T23:35:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:35:51Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:35:54Z jasom: ^^^ Josh_2: That single accessor is sufficient for setting bitfields in arbitrary width integers, which will let you go pretty far. 2017-10-02T23:36:31Z jasom: clhs logior 2017-10-02T23:36:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm 2017-10-02T23:36:51Z jasom: ^^^ Josh_2 there are the basic bitwise logical operations as well 2017-10-02T23:39:03Z jasom: Josh_2: fast-io is for fast streaming of binary data, but it also happens to provide operations for reading 8/16/32/64/12 signed,unsigned,big,little endian values: https://github.com/rpav/fast-io 2017-10-02T23:39:56Z jasom: Josh_2: If you've at least *looked* at some of those pages, don't be embarassed to ask here, we all have holes in our knowledge. 2017-10-02T23:40:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-02T23:40:49Z Bike: if you hadn't looked at them because you didn't know where they were that's ok too 2017-10-02T23:41:11Z Josh_2: I have looked at logand, not ldb. I don't understand what ldb does. 2017-10-02T23:44:16Z Bike: know any assembly? 2017-10-02T23:44:22Z Josh_2: No 2017-10-02T23:44:28Z Bike: can you read hex? 2017-10-02T23:44:56Z Josh_2: I'll go on the safe side and say I can't anymore 2017-10-02T23:46:08Z Bike: well, whatever. it extracts bits. so for example you can do (ldb (byte 4 0) #xd3f) => #xf, (ldb (byte 4 4) #xd3f) => #x3, (ldb (byte 4 8) #xd3f) => #xd 2017-10-02T23:47:59Z aeth: It really helps imo to concretely know what bit magic you're trying to do, and then define trivial inline functions that basically rename the cryptic byte magic to something more familiar. 2017-10-02T23:48:35Z aeth: e.g. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/30173c4c164e4ab579cff414d398dd3613f70d1f/math/boolean-set.lisp 2017-10-02T23:48:43Z dim: also #x is a prefix that indicates following numbers are in base 16 2017-10-02T23:49:23Z dim: #xd3f = d3f in base 16 = 3391, try it at your lisp REPL 2017-10-02T23:50:20Z dim: (format t "~2r" (ldb (byte 4 0) #b11001010)) gives 1010 2017-10-02T23:50:42Z dim: (format t "~2x" (ldb (byte 4 0) #b11001010)) gives A 2017-10-02T23:50:45Z Josh_2: I normally just change *print-base* in repl 2017-10-02T23:51:07Z dim: #b, #x and #o are quite convenient 2017-10-02T23:53:28Z dim: (format t "~2,4,'0r" (ldb (byte 4 8) #b110010101001000)) is 0101 2017-10-02T23:56:29Z nalik891 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-02T23:57:22Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-02T23:57:23Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-10-02T23:58:51Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T00:00:34Z aeth: Is a constant available at read time? i.e. in #. 2017-10-03T00:00:37Z aeth: It appears like it is. 2017-10-03T00:02:23Z Bike: constants are bound at compile time, so they'll be available for forms read later 2017-10-03T00:02:38Z aeth: thanks, I couldn't find anything about constants in the HyperSpec for read 2017-10-03T00:02:45Z aeth: but that makes sense 2017-10-03T00:02:48Z Bike: wait, i take that back 2017-10-03T00:03:12Z Bike: the value /may/ be bound, but all that's actually required is that the compiler understands that it's constant 2017-10-03T00:03:23Z Bike: so an implementation could hypothetically not bind it, though i don't thiink any actually do. 2017-10-03T00:04:05Z aeth: I want to essentially do this to have a print-boolean-set: (format t #.(concatenate 'string "~" (write-to-string +boolean-set-max-size+) ",'0b") boolean-set) rather than hardcode the magic number like (format t "~60,'0b" boolean-set) 2017-10-03T00:04:30Z aeth: Then I can see what the number looks like as bits representing true/false. 2017-10-03T00:05:56Z aeth: e.g. for something that's 59 of the 60 things (print-boolean-set (1- (expt 2 59))) => 011111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 2017-10-03T00:06:32Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T00:09:36Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T00:10:10Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-03T00:10:47Z aeth: (It's just an integer, so I can't/shouldn't set an automatic print representation for it, but I can provide a function for more elaborate data structures that use it.) 2017-10-03T00:11:56Z Bike: (format t "~v,'0b" +boolean-set-max-size+ boolean-set) 2017-10-03T00:12:17Z basket quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T00:12:45Z aeth: that... disassembles to the same thing in SBCL 2017-10-03T00:12:48Z aeth: I was overthinking things 2017-10-03T00:12:56Z earl-ducaine: @Josh_2 re: byte some things that helped me: ldb stands for load byte and dpb deposit byte. #b101 is a byte string literal, format t "~b" 123 to print 2017-10-03T00:13:09Z Bike: disassembles? if you're worried about performance i don't recommend format, or, i/o 2017-10-03T00:13:37Z aeth: This is not going to be run at runtime unless there's something that needs to be debugged. 2017-10-03T00:13:58Z Bike: why are you disassembling anything 2017-10-03T00:14:27Z aeth: To see if logically equivalent things are equivalent to each other once compiled. 2017-10-03T00:14:37Z aeth: If the disassemblies match I don't even need to test it 2017-10-03T00:15:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T00:15:49Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-03T00:15:54Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-10-03T00:16:15Z aeth: Also, it's a habit to disassemble everything. 2017-10-03T00:18:39Z aeth: Most of what I've done in the past year needs to be fast because I've been doing the core of the game engine, hence lots of disassemble. I probably over-optimized it because I was trying to get 60 FPS on ECL when it turns out it was a CFFI issue, not an issue on my end. So I've almost finished removing all consing in the core of the game loop. 2017-10-03T00:19:45Z jmercouris: sqlite interface for CL? 2017-10-03T00:19:54Z jmercouris: suggestions? 2017-10-03T00:20:18Z dim: (ql:quickload "sqlite") 2017-10-03T00:20:29Z jmercouris: dim: documentation for it? 2017-10-03T00:20:45Z dim: or use pgloader, load the whole database into PostgreSQL in one command, then use postmodern instead 2017-10-03T00:21:03Z jmercouris: dim: Has to be 100% portable 2017-10-03T00:21:17Z dim: http://quickdocs.org/cl-sqlite/api#package-SQLITE I guess 2017-10-03T00:21:20Z dim: it's CFFI based 2017-10-03T00:22:26Z earl-ducaine: Also again re: byte arithmetic, negative numbers extend their left most '1' into infinity and positive number extend their 0 into infinity, e.g. 2017-10-03T00:22:32Z earl-ducaine: (ldb (byte 3 5) -1) 2017-10-03T00:22:36Z earl-ducaine: => 7 2017-10-03T00:22:56Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T00:23:31Z earl-ducaine: Took me an embarassingly long time to realize that. 2017-10-03T00:24:04Z Xach: Xof taught me about it. 2017-10-03T00:24:18Z Xach: or maybe it was the dpb into -1 2017-10-03T00:24:59Z aeth: is ldb the recommended way to handle storing information in byte-arrays? Or I guess retrieving information 2017-10-03T00:25:37Z hooman: aeth, is your code public ? 2017-10-03T00:25:50Z Bike: ldb doesn't do byte arrays. 2017-10-03T00:25:58Z aeth: hooman: right now, most of my code is public 2017-10-03T00:26:43Z aeth: Essentially, the game engine is public, the games themselves will be mixed. Probably wouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer them, though. 2017-10-03T00:26:58Z aeth: Bike: Bytes in byte arrays, though. 2017-10-03T00:27:13Z aeth: Not everything needs a whole byte. 2017-10-03T00:27:31Z aeth: Although some things might need two bytes, so merging them might be complicated? 2017-10-03T00:27:37Z Bike: ldb is a good way to get numbers out of bigger numbers. nothing to do with arrays 2017-10-03T00:29:11Z aeth: Bike: Yes, let me rephrase. #(0-255 0-255 0-255 ...) is going to be my basic map format for terrain (structures like buildings will need real geometry). I get reading/writing this from alexandria for free, afaik. 2017-10-03T00:29:23Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T00:29:36Z aeth: So everything will have to be encoded in numbers from 0-255, even if there aren't 255 possible states. 2017-10-03T00:29:42Z aeth: (Or if there are more.) 2017-10-03T00:29:58Z hooman: everything..? 2017-10-03T00:30:02Z jmercouris: Xach: is it true that there are no tests in quicklisp? 2017-10-03T00:30:31Z jmercouris: I saw this article on reddit and it blew my mind: https://markkarpov.com/post/lisp-and-haskell.html 2017-10-03T00:30:34Z Xach: jmercouris: it depends on what you mean by "quicklisp". do you mean the software? 2017-10-03T00:30:44Z Xach: or the librries? 2017-10-03T00:30:49Z Xach: lliibraries 2017-10-03T00:30:52Z Xach: errrgh keybaord lag 2017-10-03T00:31:07Z dim: your keyboard is brok 2017-10-03T00:31:10Z jmercouris: iiii dooonnnnttttt knnooowww 2017-10-03T00:31:14Z dim: (ahah, sorry, it's very late here) 2017-10-03T00:31:17Z jmercouris: I just meant the software 2017-10-03T00:31:25Z jmercouris: not like the actual sources 2017-10-03T00:31:33Z jmercouris: as far as I understand you test that all the sources together work 2017-10-03T00:31:50Z jmercouris: which is why releases are very stable, but do you actually test the system itself? 2017-10-03T00:32:05Z Xach: It is pretty dumb to describe me as an uber lisp hacker. 2017-10-03T00:32:14Z jmercouris: I didn't write the article :P 2017-10-03T00:32:25Z Xach: jmercouris: the quicklisp client does not have any tests, no. I would like to add some, though. 2017-10-03T00:32:46Z Xach: I am not opposed to tests, but I haven't made them a priority in the past but would like to in the future. 2017-10-03T00:32:54Z jmercouris: Xach: I hear ya 2017-10-03T00:33:02Z jmercouris: Really great piece of software btw, I'm a huge fan 2017-10-03T00:33:13Z Xach: glad to hear it, thanks. 2017-10-03T00:33:13Z jmercouris: Unless you're adding features though, I'm not sure why add tests 2017-10-03T00:33:29Z Xach: Well, I think of tests as adding confidence against unintended breakage. 2017-10-03T00:33:34Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-03T00:33:46Z jmercouris: are you actively updating it though? 2017-10-03T00:33:50Z jmercouris: does it really need any new features? 2017-10-03T00:34:08Z jmercouris: also pjb (I think) had posted about some very interesting koans the other day regarding tests 2017-10-03T00:34:43Z sjl_: the upcoming pgp key verification is a very-needed new feature 2017-10-03T00:34:51Z Xach: jmercouris: i am updating it 2017-10-03T00:35:02Z jmercouris: ah yeah, that'll be nice indeed 2017-10-03T00:35:03Z sjl_: very happy to see that in the works 2017-10-03T00:35:19Z jmercouris: what I really like about quicklisp is that it feels like we can avoid a sort of leftpad /npm type disaster 2017-10-03T00:35:56Z aeth: hooman: alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector returns an (unsigned-byte 8) vector so the most natural way to read/write map files is as bytes. Any sort of metadata that's more about strings/etc. could go into a separate file, or could even use babel:octets-to-string 2017-10-03T00:35:57Z jmercouris: and with this sort of additional security, hopefully we can be sure we're running safe code (at least from a malicious perspective) 2017-10-03T00:36:18Z Xach: Well, the pgp and related things are more of a "last mile" thing. 2017-10-03T00:36:34Z Xach: better than "no mile" but not end to end 2017-10-03T00:36:58Z Bike: leftpad was removed because the developer asked for it to be removed, yes? is there something about quicklisp's architecture that would... prevent that? or do you just mean an updated distro with unsatisfied dependencies wouldn't go up. 2017-10-03T00:37:07Z sjl_: I'm not sure that's completely true. If an attacker gets an innocuous-looking package into QL and then pushed an 'rm -rf' update, but makes sure it doesn't run on Xach's machines, we're likely still hosed 2017-10-03T00:37:28Z sjl_: assuming xach doesn't manually review every single diff for each ql release, which would be insane 2017-10-03T00:37:29Z hooman: aeth, ahh i see =) 2017-10-03T00:37:54Z Xach: full review of everything would be great but difficult 2017-10-03T00:38:08Z sjl_: yeah, it's not practical for a single person 2017-10-03T00:38:23Z jmercouris: I meant that basically a developer can't just randomly pull some stuff of ql afaik 2017-10-03T00:38:27Z sjl_: Bike: I think the leftpad thing wouldn't be nearly as bad. The author would have to contact Xach to get it removed 2017-10-03T00:38:50Z sjl_: and then if the removal broke things, the next QL dist could be delayed until the situation was untangled 2017-10-03T00:38:51Z jmercouris: also yeah, we can't really do a openbsd style audit of every package, that would be a monumental effort 2017-10-03T00:39:11Z Xach: well, maybe it can be done. 2017-10-03T00:39:25Z jmercouris: you know, maybe we can have a set of "trusted" packages 2017-10-03T00:39:26Z Xach: sometimes small is an advantage 2017-10-03T00:39:35Z jmercouris: and then like a set of "untrusted" packages, which you just install at your own risk 2017-10-03T00:39:55Z aeth: sjl_: But the Quicklisp model wouldn't scale up to the size of JavaScript 2017-10-03T00:40:10Z jmercouris: and if you want your package to go from untrusted --> trusted, you have to pay for a security audit or somethng 2017-10-03T00:40:17Z sjl_: aeth: nope 2017-10-03T00:40:20Z Xach: i was pretty bummed at the hacker news discussion that mixed accurate info with "asdf-install solved these issues", which i don't think is true. 2017-10-03T00:40:40Z jmercouris: Xach: which article are you talking about? 2017-10-03T00:40:59Z Xach: some hacker news discussion related to my pgp/sha testing blog post 2017-10-03T00:41:01Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-03T00:41:28Z Xach: i try not to read lisp discussion on hacker news because it rarely brings new ideas to bear on anything lisp-related 2017-10-03T00:41:46Z jmercouris: yeah, I feel like it's mostly just people who want to pretend they use lisp, and have lots to say about it 2017-10-03T00:41:54Z sjl_: s/lisp-related// 2017-10-03T00:42:05Z jmercouris: "lol parens anyone?" "wow paredit mode so good" 2017-10-03T00:42:44Z Xach: yes, i don't generally make a habit of reading any discussion there at all, but sometimes people point me at lisp stuff there and then i get sad for a bit if i can't resist reading it 2017-10-03T00:43:18Z jmercouris: sjl_: +1 2017-10-03T00:45:29Z Xach: anyway, when people make software to share, i generally think they're doing the best they can with the info they have. 2017-10-03T00:45:41Z Xach: and the time and other resources on hand 2017-10-03T00:46:22Z Xach: and the requirements, etc. 2017-10-03T00:46:26Z jmercouris: yeah, I don't imagine many open source stuff is malicious 2017-10-03T00:46:42Z Xach: oh, this is more about things working at various scales. 2017-10-03T00:46:49Z Zhivago: Malicious generally takes extra work. 2017-10-03T00:46:51Z Josh_2: I can't for the life of me work out what ldb does. I guess I'll try again tomorrow. Not really sure what the point of it is either. 2017-10-03T00:47:55Z Xach: like, even if a package system doesn't work the way i need or like, it's not because someone was trying to make me made. 2017-10-03T00:47:58Z Xach: mad, rather. 2017-10-03T00:48:11Z Xach: stuff is hard to make 2017-10-03T00:48:32Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T00:50:51Z jmercouris: yeah it is 2017-10-03T00:51:00Z jmercouris: I've been working over a week on compilation issues... 2017-10-03T00:51:21Z dim: Josh_2: load byte, the (byte x y) is a specification for which byte to load 2017-10-03T00:51:58Z dim: Josh_2: when that when invented, bytes weren't all 8 bits long, so you can choose your byte specification length, and position where to start reading, that's the (byte x y) parts 2017-10-03T00:52:37Z dim: ldb applies that specification to an input, a number taken as being an “encoded” byte value if you will 2017-10-03T00:52:45Z dim: Josh_2: does that make any sense? 2017-10-03T00:53:40Z sjl_: where "load" means "return" 2017-10-03T00:54:14Z sjl_: ldb extracts a hunk of bits from a number and returns them. it's kinda hard to understand at first because cl reads and prints in base 10 by default 2017-10-03T00:54:15Z dim: on that, gn! 2017-10-03T00:54:43Z sjl_: if you (setf *print-base* 2) to make it print numbers in binary it becomes a bit easeir to read 2017-10-03T00:55:06Z sjl_: (ldb (byte 3 5) #b1100010100011) => "give me the 3 bits starting at position 5" => 101 2017-10-03T00:55:53Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-10-03T00:57:32Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-03T00:59:58Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:00:05Z Josh_2: o 2017-10-03T01:00:56Z Josh_2: well yeah that makes sense. I'd already set *print-base* to two. You made it a lot easier to understand than the spec did... 2017-10-03T01:01:33Z sjl: the spec is great once you have the general idea, because it specifies all the edge cases I didn't mention 2017-10-03T01:01:47Z sjl: but trying to learn Lisp by reading the spec is like trying to learn French with a dictionary 2017-10-03T01:02:03Z sjl: like, I guess it could work, but there are easier roads 2017-10-03T01:02:42Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:03:37Z Xach: it can be fun to read the dictionary even if you don't retain it all, because you might remember useful bits and pieces down the road 2017-10-03T01:04:06Z Xach: but it is not a good way to get going 2017-10-03T01:04:23Z Josh_2: I've been learning CL since I was 19.. I'm 21 now. 2017-10-03T01:04:59Z Josh_2: Not constantly obviously. I used to be in clnoobs not here that's all. 2017-10-03T01:06:20Z nalik891 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T01:06:39Z vyzo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T01:06:54Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T01:07:05Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:07:05Z vyzo joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:07:09Z Josh_2: Also, I haven't just been reading the hyperspec :P I've got books like Land of Lisp, PCL and I started with "A Gentle Intro.." + "The Little Schemer" 2017-10-03T01:08:06Z Xach: cool 2017-10-03T01:12:01Z Josh_2: I've never made anything though. 2017-10-03T01:12:38Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:15:36Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T01:19:47Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T01:24:34Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-03T01:25:34Z Xach: if you stick with it, making something will eventually happen 2017-10-03T01:25:40Z Xach: it can be hard to avoid 2017-10-03T01:33:13Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T01:33:46Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:34:04Z jmercouris: Josh_2: i think the best way to learn is by doing a simple project 2017-10-03T01:34:41Z jmercouris: maybe make like a program that helps you read books or something 2017-10-03T01:34:46Z jmercouris: hey that's actually a really good idea 2017-10-03T01:34:58Z jmercouris: so basically our eyes have to scan across the page right? and that's pretty tiring 2017-10-03T01:35:11Z jmercouris: so what if instead of our eyes scanning across the page, the text scrolled across like a region 2017-10-03T01:35:23Z jmercouris: and we can customize the speed of it via the mouse so that we could read with less eye strain 2017-10-03T01:35:30Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T01:35:45Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:36:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:37:26Z Josh_2: That's a funny idea, the epitome of laziness. 2017-10-03T01:39:50Z z3t0 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T01:41:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T01:41:10Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:44:08Z Josh_2: I'll write something tomorrow that'll read through all my .lisp files and count up the total number of SLOC 2017-10-03T01:44:26Z Josh_2: Then Ima keep trying with my DNS program 2017-10-03T01:45:37Z gilberth: I could potentially speed up reading. I sometimes read every other line backwards. That is faster, as you skip the carriage^Weye return. 2017-10-03T01:45:43Z gilberth: It, even. 2017-10-03T01:49:58Z gilberth: Hmm, would flashing words be an alternative. I have a hard time reading scrolling text. 2017-10-03T01:53:35Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:55:22Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-03T01:55:35Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T01:58:36Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T01:59:22Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:00:29Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:02:35Z jmercouris: gilberth: yeah scrolling text is hard, maybe it just like jumps words like you said 2017-10-03T02:02:54Z jmercouris: so every like 1/4 second or something, the sentence shifts a little bit to the left and the leftmostword is consumed 2017-10-03T02:04:06Z gilberth: That sounds like a good idea. We could experiment with making the delay dependent on the word. 2017-10-03T02:05:03Z gilberth: [For German though, your really would like that, as words can get as long as you wish.] 2017-10-03T02:05:39Z gilberth: Do we have an eye tracker? 2017-10-03T02:08:27Z jmercouris: hmm nothing that can't be done with cffi 2017-10-03T02:08:39Z edgar-rft: I've heard OpenCV can do ball-tracking... 2017-10-03T02:08:45Z gilberth: Actually I find that quite an interessting problem. Imagine you could read a novel on your smart watch. 2017-10-03T02:08:47Z jmercouris: yeah was bout to suggest: http://opencv.org 2017-10-03T02:09:03Z jmercouris: gilberth: bist du deutsche oder? 2017-10-03T02:09:24Z gilberth: jmercouris: Ja, ich bin Deutscher. 2017-10-03T02:09:47Z jmercouris: makes sense based on your spelling of interesting and the comment about german words :P 2017-10-03T02:10:07Z gilberth: *sigh* 2017-10-03T02:10:25Z gilberth: My english spelling is rusty. 2017-10-03T02:10:32Z jmercouris: it's okay, you should see my german spelling :D 2017-10-03T02:10:43Z jmercouris: es ist eigentlich voll schlecht :D 2017-10-03T02:10:48Z gilberth: And your grammar! :-P 2017-10-03T02:10:59Z jmercouris: tja, my grammar is quite bad 2017-10-03T02:11:31Z gilberth: But then, it is a hard language, I imagine. 2017-10-03T02:11:42Z jmercouris: don't even get me started lol 2017-10-03T02:11:53Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:11:58Z jmercouris: I've been living in Germany for 4 years, and I still feel like I have no idea how to string together a sentence 2017-10-03T02:12:27Z gilberth: jmercouris: But then, most Germans don't even get ther German grammar right. 2017-10-03T02:12:41Z jmercouris: dude tell me about it, in Berlin everybody speaks super wrong German 2017-10-03T02:12:48Z jmercouris: it used to drive me crazy, but now I do it too lol 2017-10-03T02:12:51Z jmercouris: allet jut wahr? 2017-10-03T02:13:32Z gilberth: It is worse in Bavaria. I have trouble understanding those people. 2017-10-03T02:14:01Z gilberth: Or Saxiony. 2017-10-03T02:14:08Z gilberth: Saxony, even. 2017-10-03T02:14:09Z jmercouris: oh yeah, it get's even worse in switzerland 2017-10-03T02:14:20Z jmercouris: I was watching this one video and I could have sworn they were speaking a foreign language 2017-10-03T02:14:27Z gilberth: That is chinese to me. 2017-10-03T02:14:58Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-03T02:15:28Z gilberth: But then I have a hard time to understand British people, while I have absolutely not problem understanding US english. 2017-10-03T02:15:42Z gilberth: s/not/no/ 2017-10-03T02:15:45Z jmercouris: yeah, I even have trouble with some british accents though, and english is one of my first languages 2017-10-03T02:15:57Z jmercouris: so don't feel too bad about it 2017-10-03T02:16:27Z gilberth: What is your other first language? 2017-10-03T02:16:31Z jmercouris: Greek 2017-10-03T02:16:38Z jmercouris: and then Spanish, and then German 2017-10-03T02:16:42Z gilberth: Long words! 2017-10-03T02:16:53Z jmercouris: lol yeah, Greek is actually very similar to German in a grammatic sense 2017-10-03T02:17:05Z jmercouris: we have a similar idea of deklinationen and how we can combine words 2017-10-03T02:17:17Z jmercouris: it's actually an even more succinct language, what you say in like 4 words in german is one in greek 2017-10-03T02:17:49Z jmercouris: like for example: ich habe gegessen, would just be εφαγα 2017-10-03T02:17:57Z jmercouris: like literally one word for 3, and it has all the meaning 2017-10-03T02:23:51Z earl-ducaine: I won't chime in on the superiority of languages, but what I particularly like about Modern Greek is that it retains the original synthetic passive voice. So, you can say something like: 2017-10-03T02:23:51Z earl-ducaine: το φαγητό τρώγεται. The food was eaten. 2017-10-03T02:27:09Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:28:20Z earl-ducaine: 'original' being the synthetic passive inherited from Indo-European. 2017-10-03T02:29:06Z jmercouris: earl-ducaine: I speak Modern Greek and I have no idea what you mean :D 2017-10-03T02:32:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:33:45Z earl-ducaine: Passive voice is where the subject is acted upon by the object e.g. The boy was hit by the ball. 2017-10-03T02:33:56Z jmercouris: aha okay, then yes, I know what you mean 2017-10-03T02:34:32Z nalik891 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T02:34:33Z earl-ducaine: In English we have to use a periphrasic construction 'was hit' 2017-10-03T02:35:40Z earl-ducaine: but in greek you can use one word: χτυπήθηκε 2017-10-03T02:35:50Z jmercouris: yep 2017-10-03T02:35:59Z jmercouris: do you speak greek or something? 2017-10-03T02:36:20Z earl-ducaine: Just a bit. Mostly forgotten. 2017-10-03T02:36:56Z jmercouris: nice! 2017-10-03T02:37:22Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:40:33Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T02:44:13Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:46:51Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-03T02:47:10Z marcux quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-03T02:47:14Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T02:47:41Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:50:19Z Nostrovus joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:50:28Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T02:50:36Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T02:51:58Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-03T02:52:26Z Nostrovus quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T02:54:48Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T02:55:35Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T02:57:35Z hsu joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:08:49Z saki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T03:14:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:15:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T03:20:44Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-03T03:22:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:24:17Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T03:26:35Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T03:31:45Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T03:33:35Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:38:07Z stylewarning: Could someone give me the precise meaning of :read-only in DEFSTRUCT? The spec says "When x is true, this specifies that this slot cannot be altered; it will always contain the value supplied at construction time." Does this only mean the slot cannot point to a different object? Or that the object itself can't be modified? 2017-10-03T03:38:25Z jmercouris: I think both are true 2017-10-03T03:38:36Z jmercouris: the slot is part of the struct, it is an object only technically 2017-10-03T03:39:03Z jmercouris: so most definitely you cannot change the value the slot is pointing to, but you MAY perhaps change the value at that address 2017-10-03T03:39:42Z jmercouris: like let's say I make a slot pointing to some mutable object, and that slot is read only, of course I cannot reassign that slot, but I should be able to freely mutate that object, thereby changing the value of the slot 2017-10-03T03:39:54Z jmercouris: at least that's my interpretation 2017-10-03T03:40:19Z stylewarning: Yes but the struct doesn't know anything about the internals of the object. The object can maintain identity or even EQL-ness. The spec defines "same" as "2. (of objects if no predicate is implied by context) indistinguishable by eql." 2017-10-03T03:40:23Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:41:04Z jmercouris: stylewarning: when you say "the object" what are you talking about? 2017-10-03T03:41:05Z stylewarning: I know the meaning of DEFSTRUCT's :read-only doesn't contain the word "same", but I'd interpret it as "the same value" 2017-10-03T03:41:15Z stylewarning: The object to which the slot is set. 2017-10-03T03:41:53Z jmercouris: I still don't understand what you are trying to say here 2017-10-03T03:42:33Z stylewarning: You don't understand my question, or my follow-up statements? 2017-10-03T03:42:38Z jmercouris: the follow up 2017-10-03T03:43:17Z jmercouris: "the struct doesn't know anything about the internals of the object", why does it have to know? 2017-10-03T03:43:21Z jmercouris: this is what I am not getting 2017-10-03T03:43:36Z stylewarning: It *doesn't* have to know. But if it *doesn't* know, then it can't know that the object changed. 2017-10-03T03:43:50Z jmercouris: no where in the spec does it say it knows if the object changed or not though 2017-10-03T03:43:54Z jmercouris: that's what I'm not getting here 2017-10-03T03:44:04Z jmercouris: I am assuming only the REFERENCE cannot change, e.g. the address 2017-10-03T03:44:13Z jmercouris: at least that is what makes sense to me 2017-10-03T03:44:15Z stylewarning: I am assuming that too. 2017-10-03T03:44:19Z stylewarning: That is the minimum requirement seemingly. 2017-10-03T03:44:28Z stylewarning: But I am wondering if it can be read into any more. 2017-10-03T03:44:42Z jmercouris: maybe, I'd guess you're overreading into it though 2017-10-03T03:44:44Z jmercouris: but I'm no lisp expert 2017-10-03T03:45:12Z stylewarning: Well it would seem that "read-only" would mean "the object set here is not for any sort of writing" 2017-10-03T03:45:31Z jmercouris: yeah, i bet basically you can just not use the struct accessors with setf 2017-10-03T03:45:38Z jmercouris: that's my guess 2017-10-03T03:45:43Z stylewarning: I know that bit is definitely true. 2017-10-03T03:45:47Z jmercouris: if you have a different reference to the object, then it must stay mutable 2017-10-03T03:46:07Z jmercouris: I don't see how else they could enforce/implement that 2017-10-03T03:46:17Z jmercouris: unless it makes a copy of an object on setting of that slot 2017-10-03T03:47:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:47:22Z stylewarning: Well if the object is, say, a simple-array of floats, then maybe (??) an implementation could decide to embed those floats in the struct itself 2017-10-03T03:47:25Z tessier joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:47:25Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-10-03T03:47:25Z tessier joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:49:29Z jmercouris: stylewarning: but what if it is a complex object? what about references from those object? 2017-10-03T03:49:44Z jmercouris: I mean how far down the dependency tree do we have to main "read only"ness 2017-10-03T03:50:00Z jmercouris: is a slot of that object that is also an object now read only? 2017-10-03T03:50:25Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:50:34Z jmercouris: the only scenario that makes sense is one of 2 things probably: 1. deep copy of the original reference following all dependencies, or 2. they actually mean immutable reference 2017-10-03T03:51:21Z marvin3 quit 2017-10-03T03:54:49Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-03T03:57:56Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-03T04:02:21Z marcux quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-03T04:02:37Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-03T04:04:36Z marcux quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T04:04:57Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-03T04:06:04Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-03T04:09:02Z omilu joined #lisp 2017-10-03T04:10:24Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T04:15:05Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-03T04:22:32Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I should define a system called FOO ? If it is also foo.asd, then what about the rule of not defining multiple systems in one ASD file? 2017-10-03T11:38:41Z Shinmera: a foo/test system must be in the foo file 2017-10-03T11:38:55Z Shinmera: so you can't really avoid multiple systems in the same file. 2017-10-03T11:40:22Z dim: apparently (push "$(PWD)/" asdf:*central-registry*) isn't enough to add something to quickload... ideas? 2017-10-03T11:40:35Z dim: context: Makefile / build script for users who don't have QL locally 2017-10-03T11:40:40Z phoe: dim: (ql:register-local-projects) ? 2017-10-03T11:40:41Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-03T11:40:54Z dim: so we install QL in the Makefile at build time in ./build/quicklisp 2017-10-03T11:41:13Z dim: *local-project-directories* 2017-10-03T11:41:18Z dim: I might play with that, thanks 2017-10-03T11:42:12Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T11:44:31Z dim: (otherwise ql:quickload downloads the previous pgloader release, and the asd dependencies changed, and build fails) 2017-10-03T11:46:20Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T11:47:25Z dim: seems to work, thanks 2017-10-03T11:48:20Z phoe: <3 2017-10-03T11:48:29Z Shinmera: This is probably overkill for your case, but Radiance has an automated bootstrapper thing that deploys everything needed to a single directory from a single file. https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-bootstrap 2017-10-03T11:48:50Z Shinmera: It's tailored for Radiance, so it would need adapting. 2017-10-03T11:49:12Z Shinmera: It's also probably one of the most superfluous things I've ever done. 2017-10-03T11:49:39Z dim: pgloader also as a “bundle” facility for “lazy” packagers 2017-10-03T11:49:45Z dim: built on QL's facility 2017-10-03T11:50:25Z Shinmera: That's not what this is-- it's intended for use on a consumer's machine. 2017-10-03T11:51:03Z Shinmera: You download the bootstrap script, run it with sbcl, and get a wizard for a Radiance installation. 2017-10-03T11:51:38Z dim: oh nice 2017-10-03T11:51:53Z dim: well my intended audience doesn't care about Common Lisp and QL, in the best case 2017-10-03T11:52:13Z dim: in the usual scenario, they are afraid of it and any problem it might cause for not being streamlined enough 2017-10-03T11:52:28Z phoe: dim: why not build a binary for them? 2017-10-03T11:52:34Z Shinmera: phoe: He does. 2017-10-03T11:52:45Z phoe: then why download quicklisp on client machines? 2017-10-03T11:52:47Z dim: that's what I'm doing, and we're talking about the automatic Makefile that does that ;-) 2017-10-03T11:52:48Z Shinmera: The current issue is for when they want to build the binary themselves for debugging purposes. 2017-10-03T11:52:53Z phoe: ooh. 2017-10-03T11:52:56Z dim: phoe: not client machine, build machines 2017-10-03T11:53:17Z dim: it's all automated so that when I fix a bug it's easy to build for users, without me having to release again 2017-10-03T11:53:27Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T11:53:30Z phoe: I see. 2017-10-03T11:53:34Z dim: git clone; make; ./build/bin/pgloader --version; there you go 2017-10-03T11:54:07Z dim: I'd rather not admit how many hours went into this Makefile 2017-10-03T11:54:31Z Shinmera: Automation is hard it turns out :^) 2017-10-03T11:54:53Z dim: in exchange I have users on github issues customarily build from source, no glitch 2017-10-03T11:55:02Z dim: even had some easy bug fixes / contribs done that way 2017-10-03T11:55:13Z dim: (no SLIME, just edit a file, make, test, send a PR) 2017-10-03T11:55:50Z dim: ok the build just passed on the build machine (for another project that build-depends on pgloader), thx 2017-10-03T11:57:24Z Shinmera: The bootstrapper is primarily inspired and modelled after the Quicklisp bootstrapper, so kudos to Xach. 2017-10-03T11:58:24Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-03T11:58:57Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-03T11:59:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-03T11:59:39Z papachan` joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:00:19Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:04:03Z dim: the whole pgloader build process is made around QL, I agree to send kudos to Xach :-) 2017-10-03T12:06:55Z p_l: dim: how many people who aren't lispers in general notice lisp in pgloader? :) 2017-10-03T12:07:31Z dim: good question, no idea 2017-10-03T12:07:50Z dim: unfortunately it shows in quite obvious way in badly handled error scenarios 2017-10-03T12:07:53Z p_l: till today I never noticed Scheme in VMware 2017-10-03T12:08:09Z Shinmera: p_l: News to me! 2017-10-03T12:08:13Z dim: Scheme in VMware?! 2017-10-03T12:08:15Z Shinmera: What's it used for? 2017-10-03T12:08:16Z p_l: yep 2017-10-03T12:08:36Z p_l: Shinmera: scripting various internal actions 2017-10-03T12:08:43Z Shinmera: Interesting. 2017-10-03T12:08:56Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T12:09:01Z p_l: run `strings` on VMX executable (vmware-vmx, aka the actual hypervisor binary) 2017-10-03T12:10:33Z Shinmera: Hah! 2017-10-03T12:11:28Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T12:12:01Z Shinmera: I wonder what kind of scheme they use that makes it necessary to define: (define (length lst) (if (null? lst) 0 (+ 1 (length (cdr lst))))) 2017-10-03T12:13:06Z p_l: Shinmera: could be one where only the bare minimum is compiled in another language and we see bits of libs included 2017-10-03T12:13:33Z p_l: build Scheme from first principles, include libs in the program 2017-10-03T12:15:20Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:21:01Z p_l: wonder if the gui also has some 2017-10-03T12:21:43Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:21:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-03T12:28:21Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T12:29:53Z Shinmera: strings on the vmware workstation binary doesn't show anything. 2017-10-03T12:29:59Z Shinmera: anything of the sort, I mean. 2017-10-03T12:30:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:30:11Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T12:32:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:32:49Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T12:32:52Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:33:25Z phoe: time to write the first MAKE-LOAD-FORM methods in my life 2017-10-03T12:33:49Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:34:35Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T12:38:42Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:38:46Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-03T12:39:18Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T12:48:49Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:49:16Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:50:07Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-03T12:59:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:03:48Z joast joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:05:57Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:07:29Z p_l: Shinmera: find `vmware-vmx` 2017-10-03T13:07:39Z p_l: on linux it's in /usr/lib/vmware/bin/vmware-vmx 2017-10-03T13:08:13Z p_l: it's the actual hypervisor (`vmware` starts a GUI which manages it) 2017-10-03T13:08:28Z flip214: strange that this LENGTH uses recursion and not an auxilliary function with accumulator... 2017-10-03T13:09:29Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:09:56Z p_l: Shinmera: generally, "VMX" is the hypervisor and its code is shared between all VMware platforms (so yes, ESXi runs essentially the same thing, just on a system totally optimized for the job) 2017-10-03T13:10:46Z dlowe: flip214: it's possibly slighly more efficient as long as you have TCO 2017-10-03T13:11:17Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:11:21Z p_l: is that length implementation TCO? 2017-10-03T13:12:32Z dlowe: it's a scheme, right? 2017-10-03T13:12:51Z flip214: dlowe: it has "+ 1" on the outside of the recursive call, so the compiler would have to translate to aux vars by itself 2017-10-03T13:13:57Z p_l: most importantly, that code appears to verify and translate config files 2017-10-03T13:16:21Z p_l: for example, there's code near the end of VMware 14 which says what "virtual hw version" is lowest possible given the options set 2017-10-03T13:17:53Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:20:32Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:25:51Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:27:22Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T13:28:33Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:28:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:29:49Z Shinmera: p_l: I know. I already did that, which is where I got the other code from. 2017-10-03T13:30:02Z Shinmera: p_l: I just reported that the gui didn't have anything after your query. 2017-10-03T13:30:25Z p_l: aaahhh, sorry 2017-10-03T13:30:39Z p_l juggles a lot of things in the air being job-less and job-hunting 2017-10-03T13:31:39Z Shinmera: 𝓝𝓸 𝓹𝓻𝓸𝓫𝓵𝓮𝓶 2017-10-03T13:32:02Z hel-io quit 2017-10-03T13:34:35Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:34:35Z p_l: still was a fun find 2017-10-03T13:35:06Z Shinmera: It's interesting that it's in there in plain text, rather than being compiled. 2017-10-03T13:37:39Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:38:50Z ski: flip214,dlowe : would require a variation of TCMC, yes. perhaps ask LeoNerd, they implemented this, iirc 2017-10-03T13:39:07Z pjb: p_l: you get a preview of retirement: when you don't have a job, you do a lot more than when you have a 9-5 job… 2017-10-03T13:39:14Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T13:39:26Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-03T13:39:59Z p_l: pjb: My last dorm had, hidden in alcove, the place where I'll retire. 2017-10-03T13:40:01Z p_l: A cemetery 2017-10-03T13:42:40Z pjb: A cemetery, with wifi! http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-35062758 2017-10-03T13:43:16Z pjb: I would certainly request to be buried with my laptop… 2017-10-03T13:43:28Z p_l: (because retirement == death from hunger as pensions are destroyed in orgy of whatever the fuck is going on with the economy) 2017-10-03T13:43:38Z Shinmera: There's gravestones that connect to the net :/ 2017-10-03T13:44:00Z pjb: p_l: or the time you at least, archieve this diet and perfect weight! 2017-10-03T13:45:23Z pjb: Now, since I would hope to be found by some future archeologist, I should choose my cementery carefuly to increase those probabilities. Perhaps the Andean altiplateau… 2017-10-03T13:46:32Z p_l: I should add that said cemetery was forgotten and I don't think many students noticed it was there 2017-10-03T13:46:59Z _death: sensors in the casket 2017-10-03T13:46:59Z p_l: ~200yo gravestones that I could read the dates from, a lot that I couldn't 2017-10-03T13:47:35Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T13:47:50Z p_l: the kind of burial I'd like would involve me having the kind of money to actually think about retirement, which seems unlikely 2017-10-03T13:48:30Z pjb: Time to become a drug lord, then. 2017-10-03T13:48:33Z p_l: (it would involve a space rocket and maybe nuclear funeral pyre ;P) 2017-10-03T13:49:09Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:49:20Z pjb: 2022 BFR SpaceX to Mars! 2017-10-03T13:51:54Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:52:00Z TeMPOraL: so say we all! 2017-10-03T13:52:26Z p_l: (that said, I could probably arrange for someone to send snail-mail to some people on my death from "Furude Rika, Shirakawa-mura, Ono-gun, Gifu-ken, Japan" with appropriate letters...) 2017-10-03T13:53:13Z p_l: hopefully it wouldn't cause heart-attacks, but who knows ^^; 2017-10-03T13:53:46Z pjb: There are services to do that, indeed. 2017-10-03T13:53:48Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-03T13:54:35Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T13:58:51Z p_l: btw, does anyone knows a company in quantum computing that does *not* use lisp? 2017-10-03T14:01:29Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:03:55Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:03:57Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-03T14:04:48Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:06:53Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-03T14:08:15Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:10:31Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:10:50Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-10-03T14:11:38Z phoe: I both know and don't know 2017-10-03T14:11:56Z jdz: Shroedingers phoe. 2017-10-03T14:12:17Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T14:14:27Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T14:15:09Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-03T14:16:02Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T14:16:31Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T14:18:45Z Josh_2: Are there logs for this channel online? 2017-10-03T14:18:49Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:19:54Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:20:14Z dlowe: Yes. Just search for lisp irc freenode 2017-10-03T14:20:28Z babalua quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T14:20:36Z jdz: Or check the topic? 2017-10-03T14:20:47Z phoe: Josh_2: https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ 2017-10-03T14:21:35Z edgar-rft: Josh_2, see , , 2017-10-03T14:22:18Z Josh_2: Thanks :D 2017-10-03T14:22:28Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:25:48Z jdz: There's also http://ircbrowse.net/browse/lisp 2017-10-03T14:26:55Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:27:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:31:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:33:18Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T14:37:25Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:39:04Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:41:05Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T14:50:06Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T14:54:01Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T14:55:51Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:56:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-03T14:57:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T15:02:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T15:02:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T15:03:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:03:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:07:17Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:07:17Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T15:08:40Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:13:15Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:13:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:13:54Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T15:15:45Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T15:17:27Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:18:35Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T15:19:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-03T15:24:50Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-03T15:25:29Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:28:30Z panji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T15:30:59Z hsu joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:39:54Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T15:41:10Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:41:14Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-03T15:43:13Z Josh_2: Does the variable defined using :with in Loop change each iteration? 2017-10-03T15:43:24Z shrdlu68: Nope. 2017-10-03T15:43:28Z Josh_2: Thanks 2017-10-03T15:45:24Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:54:08Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:54:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:56:05Z dlowe: you want FOR X = FOO if you want it to change 2017-10-03T15:56:16Z dlowe: or FOR X = FOO THEN BAR 2017-10-03T15:57:44Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T15:58:08Z didi joined #lisp 2017-10-03T15:58:49Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T15:59:26Z didi: What's usually the name of functions that write a datum to disk in a specific format? `write-NAME_OF_FORMAT'? 2017-10-03T16:01:45Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:03:24Z cgay: clhs loop 2017-10-03T16:03:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2017-10-03T16:04:36Z cgay: Couldn't remember if there was a difference between "loop for" and "loop as". 2017-10-03T16:05:17Z Josh_2: dlowe: I want the value to stay the same 2017-10-03T16:08:37Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-03T16:09:42Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-03T16:11:33Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:17:03Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:21:02Z dlowe: cgay: there is not 2017-10-03T16:21:08Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:21:28Z dlowe: it's kind of a semantic difference, where "as" implies that there is a dependency on the "for" value 2017-10-03T16:22:04Z dlowe: didi: I might name it FORMATNAME-write-DATATYPE 2017-10-03T16:22:29Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:25:01Z didi: dlowe: Thanks. 2017-10-03T16:26:42Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:29:04Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:30:48Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:31:28Z Josh_2: Can I use loop in a macro so that the loop generates multiple function calls with the correct values in place? 2017-10-03T16:31:35Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:31:54Z didi: dlowe: Because I'm using CLOSS, I think I will use FORMATNAME-write and let the dispatch take care of the data type. 2017-10-03T16:32:34Z didi: (spot the extra S) 2017-10-03T16:32:41Z Josh_2: It would sorta look like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/357579 2017-10-03T16:32:54Z Josh_2: I've been trying for ages and can't get anything that remotely works 2017-10-03T16:34:34Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:35:01Z Josh_2: This is what I have http://paste.lisp.org/display/357579#1 2017-10-03T16:35:38Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:36:01Z hooman doing lisp-koans 2017-10-03T16:36:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:37:21Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:37:48Z marcux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T16:42:05Z searcher quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T16:42:48Z pjb: Is there a web service that would give me pointers to data matching some keyword? 2017-10-03T16:45:22Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:47:42Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T16:48:47Z jmercouris: pjb: what do you mean? 2017-10-03T16:48:52Z jmercouris: like a search engine? 2017-10-03T16:49:21Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:55:36Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-03T16:56:09Z ski annotated "asdf" with "perhaps this is closer to working ?" at 2017-10-03T16:56:17Z ski: Josh_2 ^ 2017-10-03T16:58:12Z pjb: jmercouris: I mean if people ask about irc logs here, perhaps there's no search engines on the web. 2017-10-03T16:58:38Z pjb: When you switch to an alternate universe, it's not always obvious. 2017-10-03T16:58:41Z Josh_2: ski: that doesn't work either, expands to "(OR (CHAR= #\# (CHAR QUOTE 0)) (CHAR= #\# (CHAR (";" "#") 0)))" 2017-10-03T16:58:56Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm still not understanding you, I don't see anyone talking about logs 2017-10-03T16:59:05Z pjb: Josh_2: of course, ";" is not the name of a function! 2017-10-03T16:59:34Z pjb: jmercouris: it was more than two hours ago… 2017-10-03T16:59:43Z pjb: I was AFK for that long! 2017-10-03T16:59:43Z jmercouris: pjb: ah well, you see, I didn't check the logs :P 2017-10-03T16:59:47Z Josh_2: Yeh it was me asking about logs when I should have googled it. 2017-10-03T16:59:47Z pjb: :-) 2017-10-03T17:00:08Z pjb: Josh_2: In general, in lisp programs ( = call 2017-10-03T17:00:18Z jmercouris: pjb: except for macros 2017-10-03T17:00:29Z pjb: You can also "call" macros. Except inside macros. 2017-10-03T17:00:33Z jmercouris: like (let ((bind1 val1))) 2017-10-03T17:00:49Z jmercouris: You would agree that the outer paren of a let statement is not a function call, right? 2017-10-03T17:00:52Z pjb: (char (";" "#") 0) means call the function char with as argument: call the function ";" with as argument "#"; and 0. 2017-10-03T17:01:00Z pjb: jmercouris: yes. 2017-10-03T17:01:09Z jmercouris: in this case yes, because char is not a macro afaik 2017-10-03T17:01:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:01:11Z pjb: It's the case that is not in the "in general". 2017-10-03T17:01:39Z jmercouris: I'm just putting a disclaimer becasue that confused me for a long time, I was trying to understand some functions of some macros 2017-10-03T17:01:46Z jmercouris: but they weren't actually functions :D 2017-10-03T17:01:58Z ski: Josh_2 : instead of (contains-comment-character-p "#..." '(";" "#")) perhaps try (contains-comment-character-p "#..." (";" "#")) ? 2017-10-03T17:02:14Z pjb: jmercouris: this is already level 2. level one is to understand that there is no parenthesis. 2017-10-03T17:02:21Z pjb: Josh_2: go to the Oracle! 2017-10-03T17:02:29Z Josh_2: lol 2017-10-03T17:02:53Z Josh_2: *face palm* 2017-10-03T17:03:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T17:03:05Z shrdlu68: "file-length returns the length of stream, or nil if the length cannot be determined." In what instances can it not be determined, if I opened the stream with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)? 2017-10-03T17:03:07Z jmercouris palms face 2017-10-03T17:03:18Z pjb: Josh_2: when you have a or char= char=, you can instead do find ch string 2017-10-03T17:03:33Z ski: Josh_2 : any closer, with that suggestion ? 2017-10-03T17:03:47Z Josh_2: pjb: I made a function version of this macro, just wanted to make a macro version for fun. 2017-10-03T17:03:52Z pjb: (or (char= c #\#) (char= #\;)) == (find c "#;") 2017-10-03T17:04:52Z pjb: Josh_2: in general, if you have a function: (defun f* (…) …) you make the macro simply: (defmacro f (…) `(f* ,…)) 2017-10-03T17:05:03Z Josh_2: ski: Yah, I've had the list wrong this whole time. 2017-10-03T17:05:19Z pjb: Josh_2: better a function than a macro anyways. 2017-10-03T17:05:45Z pjb: We use macros only because functions cannot do everything. 2017-10-03T17:06:05Z hooman: can't tell the difference 2017-10-03T17:06:19Z ski is waiting for Josh_2 to exclaim that they actually wanted a function instead 2017-10-03T17:07:10Z Josh_2: ski: It was a learning exercise for me where I learned I'm a doofus. Thanks for the help anyways. 2017-10-03T17:08:21Z ski: Josh_2 : do you want to be able to pass in a dynamically / run-time computed list as second argument ? or is it always statically / compile-time (or really macro-expand-time) known ? 2017-10-03T17:08:50Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T17:08:52Z Josh_2: It will always be known 2017-10-03T17:09:03Z ski: ok. then a macro is possible 2017-10-03T17:09:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:09:39Z shrdlu68: Can I change that color of output in slime? I'm not quite comfortable with red. 2017-10-03T17:09:59Z Josh_2: I was always quoting my list like '("#" ";") (like I would a function call) instead of just ("#" ";") 2017-10-03T17:10:15Z pjb: In general in emacs, move on the text and type M-x customize-face RET 2017-10-03T17:10:27Z jmercouris: Josh_2: you can also type in (list "#" ";") 2017-10-03T17:10:31Z jmercouris: if it clarifies the code 2017-10-03T17:10:31Z ski was reverse-engineering that fact, from the sample expansion Josh_2 provided 2017-10-03T17:10:47Z ski: jmercouris : not in this case, it's a static macro argument, not an expression 2017-10-03T17:11:18Z Josh_2: So if I wanted '() instead, I can't use a macro? 2017-10-03T17:11:35Z ski: you could, manually, strip off the wrapping `quote' .. 2017-10-03T17:11:47Z ski: (but what for ?) 2017-10-03T17:12:01Z sebboh left #lisp 2017-10-03T17:12:06Z Josh_2: Well I've got a function version that works fine. 2017-10-03T17:12:12Z Josh_2: Thanks again. 2017-10-03T17:12:26Z ski: if you wanted to compute the list, instead of writing it literally, then you probably can't use a macro 2017-10-03T17:13:06Z Josh_2: Well the list would be generated from shell arguments 2017-10-03T17:13:19Z ski: (the list might be computed at compile-time, hence the caveat) 2017-10-03T17:13:55Z ski: that sounds like it would be computed at run-time, so then you can't use a macro. use the `find' function as pjb suggested ? 2017-10-03T17:15:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T17:15:14Z Josh_2: I made this function http://paste.lisp.org/display/357583 2017-10-03T17:16:25Z pjb: Josh_2: loop has always never and thereis 2017-10-03T17:17:00Z didi likes thereis 2017-10-03T17:18:42Z Josh_2: Changed it to thereis. Thanks pjb. No need for the (every.. call now 2017-10-03T17:21:19Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:23:03Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T17:24:48Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:28:40Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:28:41Z marcux quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-03T17:37:32Z jmercouris: ski: aha okay I see 2017-10-03T17:39:17Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-03T17:40:11Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:40:11Z Josh_2: Is calling (length string) the same as (array-dimension string 0)? 2017-10-03T17:40:42Z hsu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-03T17:40:47Z frgo joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:41:48Z Bike: if it's a simple-string, yes. 2017-10-03T17:42:05Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:42:09Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:42:13Z Josh_2: Thanks 2017-10-03T17:42:43Z jbm joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:42:57Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:43:03Z pjb: Josh_2: do you know what a simple-string is? (or rather, is not)? 2017-10-03T17:43:17Z Josh_2: I don't know what it isn't 2017-10-03T17:43:38Z pjb: Josh_2: the important case is the string with a fill-pointer (in general, a vector with a fill-vector). 2017-10-03T17:43:55Z pjb: In that case, length and array-dimension 0 will be different. In general, you will want to use length. 2017-10-03T17:44:08Z pjb: Don't expect simple-vector or simple-string: this will break a lot of use cases. 2017-10-03T17:44:52Z Josh_2: Alright, thanks. 2017-10-03T17:45:48Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T17:48:26Z pjb: The other case is displaced arrays or displaced vectors. Displaced arrays imply an indirection, which changes the efficiency of the operations. In absence of fill-pointer (which a displaced vector can also have), a displaced vector length is its array-dimension 0. 2017-10-03T17:48:38Z didi: Hum. I am yet to mutate a string. 2017-10-03T17:48:57Z pjb: But specifying a simple-string, simple-vector or simple-array exclude displaced arrays, and therefore prevents their use in some optimizations. 2017-10-03T17:49:31Z didi: I tried using displaced arrays once. In my case, it performed worse. 2017-10-03T17:49:35Z Josh_2: Well I just realized that all this stuff I've been using Loop for I could have done with mapcar which is what I would prefer. 2017-10-03T17:49:52Z pjb: didi: displaced arrays let you avoid copying the original array (or parts of). 2017-10-03T17:49:53Z dlowe: I only use mapcar if I don't need to use an anonymous function 2017-10-03T17:50:08Z Josh_2: Why? 2017-10-03T17:50:10Z dlowe: otherwise it just makes it pointlessly harder to read 2017-10-03T17:50:14Z Josh_2: Ahh 2017-10-03T17:50:15Z didi: pjb: Indeed. 2017-10-03T17:50:34Z didi: pjb: But it made indexing slower. 2017-10-03T17:50:40Z didi: Again, in my particular use case. 2017-10-03T17:50:45Z dlowe: if I can map with a named function, it's often much more readable than the equivalent iterative construct 2017-10-03T17:51:05Z pjb: didi: Sure. But it's also nice as a specific abstraction. You can use them as segment pointers, and adjust them. 2017-10-03T17:51:41Z dlowe: actually, I take that back. If I'm using positional-lambda, a plambda works quite well 2017-10-03T17:51:50Z dlowe: (mapcar (plambda (+ :1)) '(1 2 3)) 2017-10-03T17:52:17Z didi: pjb: Cool. I've never done that. 2017-10-03T17:52:19Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T17:52:39Z pjb: cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:nudge-displaced-vector 2017-10-03T17:52:51Z didi: Thanks. 2017-10-03T17:54:15Z Josh_2: I personally find it easier to think of the iterative constructs rather than the mapped counterparts 2017-10-03T17:57:54Z Merv joined #lisp 2017-10-03T17:57:59Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/ccl-compat/blob/master/ccl-compat.asd#L12 <- how bad is this in an ASD file? 2017-10-03T17:58:49Z Bike: why even have it as a dependency if you're not on ccl 2017-10-03T17:59:40Z phoe: Bike: I want to prevent an accident where someone on CCL loads that system 2017-10-03T17:59:44Z pjb: I would still depend on the package. package.lisp could contain #+ccl to re-export the ccl symbols. 2017-10-03T17:59:45Z phoe: at which point, sure, it should load, but do nothing 2017-10-03T17:59:52Z pjb: Then ccldoc could just use ccl-compat in all cases. 2017-10-03T18:00:11Z pjb: (without any #+) 2017-10-03T18:00:15Z phoe: it's either we put #+ccl in ccl-compat or #+ccl in all clients of that library 2017-10-03T18:00:31Z phoe: and I prefer to put it in ccl-compat to idiot-proof and mistake-proof everyone 2017-10-03T18:01:05Z _death: ugh.. (swank::send-to-emacs `(:write-image ((:type swank-io-package::png :data ,*b64-png-data*)) "\n")) 2017-10-03T18:01:38Z phoe: _death: is this the famous swank image rendering? 2017-10-03T18:01:52Z _death: why doesn't slime-media munge the type so that one doesn't need to intern symbols in swank-io-package 2017-10-03T18:01:52Z ecraven: I've used it, and it's nice :P 2017-10-03T18:03:47Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-03T18:05:38Z _death: also slime-media.lisp has nothing but a strange comment :/ 2017-10-03T18:06:16Z phoe: _death: perhaps it was put there by the previous person who attempted to use that 2017-10-03T18:06:31Z _death: phoe: no, it was put there by the person who implemented slime-media.. 2017-10-03T18:10:12Z phoe: well 2017-10-03T18:10:15Z phoe: shit. 2017-10-03T18:12:31Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-03T18:12:45Z _death: otherwise the b64 idea is cute (in the same way that data uri is cute :/) 2017-10-03T18:13:36Z jbm left #lisp 2017-10-03T18:19:25Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-03T18:20:13Z Josh_2: Do the higher order functions use recursion or iterative constructs like dotimes/do? My guess is iterative. 2017-10-03T18:20:58Z phoe: Josh_2: huh? 2017-10-03T18:20:58Z beach: What "higher order functions"? 2017-10-03T18:21:05Z frgo joined #lisp 2017-10-03T18:21:15Z phoe: like mapcar or...? 2017-10-03T18:21:22Z Josh_2: mapcar 2017-10-03T18:21:23Z beach: Josh_2: The Common Lisp standard does not specify how things are implemented. 2017-10-03T18:21:32Z phoe: depends on the implementation, but I can bet 300 parens that most mapcar implementations are iterative 2017-10-03T18:21:39Z beach: Josh_2: It would be silly for an implementation to use recursion. 2017-10-03T18:21:51Z Josh_2: No tail call optimization or something like that 2017-10-03T18:21:58Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-03T18:22:00Z phoe: Common Lisp standard does not specify TCO. 2017-10-03T18:22:04Z dlowe: I bet that most mapcar implementations are just branches and jumps 2017-10-03T18:22:11Z Josh_2: Historically they would have used recursion? 2017-10-03T18:22:18Z phoe: define "historically" 2017-10-03T18:22:32Z Josh_2: Lisp 1 2017-10-03T18:22:40Z phoe: I don't think Lisp 1 had mapcar at all. 2017-10-03T18:22:56Z Josh_2: Lisp 2 then 2017-10-03T18:23:04Z phoe: there wasn't a Lisp 2 AFAIK 2017-10-03T18:23:05Z hooman: 1.5 ? 2017-10-03T18:23:10Z Josh_2: 1.5 xD 2017-10-03T18:23:11Z logicmoo is now known as dmiles 2017-10-03T18:23:26Z hooman: no currying =( 2017-10-03T18:23:45Z Josh_2: 1 became Scheme and 1.5 is CL right? 2017-10-03T18:23:46Z phoe: feel free to find it yourself, http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=CAD76904D24F22D38E7CA012984A92F1 2017-10-03T18:23:49Z phoe: no 2017-10-03T18:23:50Z phoe: very no 2017-10-03T18:23:56Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T18:24:02Z beach: Josh_2: I think you are confused. 2017-10-03T18:24:06Z Josh_2: I think I'm also confused 2017-10-03T18:24:13Z Josh_2: That site is blocked for me 2017-10-03T18:24:30Z phoe: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/Hopl2.pdf 2017-10-03T18:24:31Z zachk joined #lisp 2017-10-03T18:24:43Z phoe: Josh_2: look for "Lisp 1.5 programmer's manual" by McCarthy 2017-10-03T18:25:04Z Josh_2: I like the first sentence 2017-10-03T18:26:59Z groovy2shoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T18:29:02Z hooman: beach, he was asking for confirmation/clarification. 2017-10-03T18:29:20Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T18:29:25Z Josh_2: That I was 2017-10-03T18:29:32Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-03T18:29:37Z hooman: i do not see the point of that. "what color is the door?" "you obviously dont know the color of the door" .............. 2017-10-03T18:31:09Z Josh_2: Well In the Lisp 1.5 manual Maplist is recursive. 2017-10-03T18:31:19Z dlowe: Josh_2: Scheme was an independent experimental project. 2017-10-03T18:31:30Z pjb: If you implemented it in scheme, you'd use recursion… 2017-10-03T18:31:45Z pjb: If your implementation has TCO and optimizes it well, you may want to use recursion too. 2017-10-03T18:32:25Z hooman: was 2017-10-03T18:33:50Z Josh_2: phoe: There is a Lisp 2 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4578574/what-is-the-difference-between-lisp-1-and-lisp-2#4579608 2017-10-03T18:37:44Z Josh_2: pjb: Thanks for clarifying. 2017-10-03T18:40:35Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T18:42:28Z phoe: Josh_2: yes, but these are not related to versions 2017-10-03T18:42:37Z phoe: these are related to namespaces. 2017-10-03T18:43:08Z Josh_2: Well that's my fault for not being specific enough. 2017-10-03T18:52:42Z _death: phoe: anyway, slapped something in my fork, better than nothing 2017-10-03T18:52:53Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-03T18:53:01Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T18:58:05Z mnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T18:59:06Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:00:23Z TCZ joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:00:53Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T19:03:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T19:14:26Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T19:14:44Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:16:14Z phoe: _death: fork of what exactly? 2017-10-03T19:16:32Z phoe: oh, slime 2017-10-03T19:26:25Z phoe: ... 2017-10-03T19:26:29Z phoe: stassats is pretty amazing 2017-10-03T19:27:03Z phoe: I submitted an improvement request 10 hours ago based on https://markkarpov.com/post/lisp-and-haskell.html - and bam, https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1720962/ 2017-10-03T19:27:40Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T19:31:46Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:32:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T19:32:10Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T19:36:47Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:37:11Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T19:38:09Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T19:39:02Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:42:14Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:42:52Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:47:03Z jackdaniel: not so easy chrissy 2017-10-03T19:47:15Z jackdaniel: taka analiza niekoniecznie jest trywialna 2017-10-03T19:47:47Z jackdaniel: wyobraz sobie (lamba (x) (catch 'x (dotimes (i 3) (external-fun)))) 2017-10-03T19:48:14Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: tak 2017-10-03T19:48:28Z jackdaniel: oh, it isn't #lisp-pl 2017-10-03T19:48:32Z jackdaniel: hm 2017-10-03T19:48:34Z jmercouris: :D 2017-10-03T19:48:34Z jackdaniel: sorry 2017-10-03T19:48:51Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-03T19:49:12Z jackdaniel: it's apprently late for me, good night o/ 2017-10-03T19:49:33Z jmercouris: it's like 10:00? 2017-10-03T19:49:43Z jackdaniel: and I'm up since 5:30am 2017-10-03T19:49:49Z jmercouris: oh damn, well then, goodnight! 2017-10-03T19:49:59Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-03T19:52:54Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2017-10-03T19:53:31Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-03T19:56:37Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-03T19:57:57Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T19:58:39Z emaczen`: pjb: Exactly how should I place (declaim (optimize...)) in my generate-application.lisp file? 2017-10-03T20:00:00Z phoe: jackdaniel: no to jak jest catch, no to rzucone może być cokolwiek, więc nie ma szans zawarnować 2017-10-03T20:00:12Z phoe: ale jak jest widoczne, to czemu nie 2017-10-03T20:00:16Z phoe: ...oh 2017-10-03T20:00:26Z phoe: I should go to sleep as well, it seems 2017-10-03T20:01:12Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T20:01:38Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:04:29Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:04:42Z pjb: emaczen`: you can put it at the beginning of the file. 2017-10-03T20:05:15Z emaczen`: pjb: Ok, and that is all? 2017-10-03T20:05:20Z pjb: Yes. 2017-10-03T20:05:36Z pjb: As long as no library you quickload changes it… 2017-10-03T20:05:44Z emaczen`: pjb: Wow, I wonder where I got the idea of putting it in every file... 2017-10-03T20:06:14Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:06:43Z pjb: If you have a library that contains such a proclamation, you quickload it first, then do your own declaim and then quickload the rest. 2017-10-03T20:07:06Z pjb: There are implementation specific functions to get the current optimization levels to check. 2017-10-03T20:07:23Z dlowe: and then file a bug report :p because that's not something a library should be doing 2017-10-03T20:07:52Z pjb: yes 2017-10-03T20:09:05Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T20:10:16Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:11:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:17:05Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T20:18:16Z sellout joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:21:25Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:26:37Z cgay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T20:30:31Z cgay joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:33:06Z papachan` joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:36:10Z DingoSAL joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:38:28Z jmercouris: phoe: nice!! that's insane speed 2017-10-03T20:38:35Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T20:38:37Z DingoSAL quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T20:38:49Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:40:00Z DingoSaar_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T20:41:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:41:30Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:41:35Z AxelAlex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T20:41:47Z papachan` is now known as papachan 2017-10-03T20:41:49Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:41:51Z Shinmera: phoe: You were lucky since Stas was already working on things in that vein. 2017-10-03T20:44:12Z phoe: Shinmera: I know - that's actually why I filed that bug. 2017-10-03T20:44:27Z phoe: He's working on type inference for standard higher-order functions. 2017-10-03T20:44:53Z Shinmera: And error reporting improvements in general. 2017-10-03T20:45:48Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:49:42Z phoe: Yep. 2017-10-03T20:50:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: how does https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools compare to eql? 2017-10-03T20:51:18Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T20:51:24Z Shinmera: I've never used EQL, so I can't say. 2017-10-03T20:52:38Z jmercouris: Why did you make such a tool if you've never tried the existing ones? 2017-10-03T20:53:03Z Shinmera: I used CommonQt, which is what Qtools is based on. 2017-10-03T20:53:20Z Shinmera: Qtools grew out of the tools I wrote to help with CommonQt. 2017-10-03T20:53:38Z Shinmera: As it explains in the documentation there. 2017-10-03T20:54:14Z jmercouris: But how do you even really use it? 2017-10-03T20:54:17Z jmercouris: are you still using qt4? 2017-10-03T20:54:30Z Shinmera: It has a tutorial on there and everything, what more do you want 2017-10-03T20:54:43Z Shinmera: CommonQt is Qt4, so yes. 2017-10-03T20:54:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-03T20:54:58Z jmercouris: I'm not asking for more, I'm just wondering why you are working on it, when it only supports qt4 2017-10-03T20:55:04Z jmercouris: don't take it as an attack, I am just trying to understand 2017-10-03T20:55:24Z Shinmera: I don't need anything from Qt5, and I'll take the version downgrade over having to use ECL. 2017-10-03T20:55:39Z jmercouris: okay, that was basically what I wanted to know 2017-10-03T20:55:45Z jmercouris: can you expand on why you prefer sbcl to ecl? 2017-10-03T20:56:19Z Shinmera: It's what I'm used to and test with. It's nicely fast, and most of everything is either at least tested for it, or specifically tailored to work well with it. 2017-10-03T20:56:45Z Shinmera: I don't need the features ECL offers, so there's no reason for me to use it. 2017-10-03T20:57:31Z jmercouris: ok interesting I see, so it's just like a case of inertia? 2017-10-03T20:57:58Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-03T20:58:24Z Shinmera: You won't found deeply reasoned decisions behind any of my projects. Spending time evaluating libraries is about my least favourite thing to ever do, so usually I just pick one after a few minutes of consideration and roll with it, or make my own. 2017-10-03T20:58:29Z Shinmera: *You won't find 2017-10-03T20:59:51Z jmercouris: okay interesting, thank you for sharing your perspective 2017-10-03T21:00:12Z Shinmera: CommonQt was the only available choice for me since I didn't want to pick a thing that was tied to an implementation. That's about it. 2017-10-03T21:00:39Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T21:00:57Z Shinmera: I started a few years ago, and back then Qt4 wasn't quite yet as unappealing as it probably is now. 2017-10-03T21:01:44Z Shinmera: I'd like to get Qt5 support at some point, but I lack the expertise to do it myself (and the will to gain that expertise), and Stas doesn't really want to work on it either, so here we are. 2017-10-03T21:02:26Z Shinmera: FWIW Stas has made some attempts to start on a Qt5 rewrite of CommonQt, but I think he never got settled on how to generate the bindings from the C++ source. 2017-10-03T21:09:21Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T21:10:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T21:10:16Z phoe: jmercouris: Qt4 is enough for my use case, too - I'm a Qtools user 2017-10-03T21:10:38Z phoe: jmercouris: also, EQL is tied to ECL as far as I know 2017-10-03T21:10:57Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:15:51Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-03T21:16:32Z p_l: I think that surprisingly it might be doable to generate partial bindings using parts of ECL, then just do enough crazy meta or plain SWIG weirdness to get it working 2017-10-03T21:17:18Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-03T21:17:51Z Shinmera: p_l: Stas investigated a couple of angles-- Clasp being one (it has that kinda thing with the clang ast-matcher tools), and c2ffi which can also do the kind of extractions, probably. 2017-10-03T21:18:13Z Shinmera: He also tried doing a native C++ thingy with clang but gave up on that since it took way too long to get anywhere at all (surprise). 2017-10-03T21:19:04Z Shinmera: I don't remember if he came to any kind of verdict before he moved to other stuff again. 2017-10-03T21:19:06Z p_l: Shinmera: since EQL5 already has to dump Qt symbol tables to generate itself, I was thinking of hijacking that to drive SWIG which can build bindings for classes to C++ 2017-10-03T21:19:45Z jmercouris: phoe: I am an ECL user, so it is no problem for me 2017-10-03T21:20:14Z jmercouris: We're a QT 5.9 at this point, commonQT is just way way too behind, and i wouldn't want to use a system that is one major version behind 2017-10-03T21:20:32Z Shinmera: p_l: I don't think Stas would want to use SWIG. 2017-10-03T21:21:56Z p_l: jmercouris: did you patch EQL to go past Qt 5.4, or did you just rip the non-working parts? 2017-10-03T21:23:36Z p_l: Shinmera: well, tough - I'd take SWIG-bindings over no-bindings 2017-10-03T21:23:59Z Shinmera: p_l: Well, if you're going to go and implement it, surprise me! :) 2017-10-03T21:24:20Z p_l: GCC-generated C++ binaries are just too much of a PITA to interface without crazy extern C wrappers 2017-10-03T21:24:35Z Shinmera: I'm fine where things are now, Qt5 is just a "nice to have" and would actually give me a bunch of work again for a while. 2017-10-03T21:25:16Z Shinmera: I think Stas' idea was to generate the C wrappers himself. 2017-10-03T21:25:17Z p_l: the only sensible, cooperating C++ binaries I had heard of involved compiling to .NET or compiling using IBM XL with a certain special, rarely used mode which applied similar behaviour obj-c to C++ 2017-10-03T21:26:07Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:27:35Z phoe: jmercouris: I am not a ECL user, so it is a problem for me 2017-10-03T21:29:51Z sjl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T21:32:18Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T21:32:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:34:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:43:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:44:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T21:45:11Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:45:14Z Bicyclidine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T21:45:36Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:46:11Z malice quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T21:47:05Z Gorgias joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:47:07Z Gorgias quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T21:47:25Z Gorgias joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:47:45Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T21:48:35Z dieggsy` joined #lisp 2017-10-03T21:49:11Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T21:50:05Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T21:52:46Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-03T22:00:06Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-03T22:01:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-03T22:06:02Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:06:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T22:07:55Z gacepa joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:08:12Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:12:16Z dieggsy` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2017-10-03T22:12:27Z NingaLeaf quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-03T22:18:34Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:19:25Z jmercouris: p_l: 99% of plugins work 2017-10-03T22:19:35Z jmercouris: there's only some strange issues on my system with some header files 2017-10-03T22:20:25Z p_l: jmercouris: when I tried in august or so there was an issue with ecl expecting modules that changed or were removed altogether 2017-10-03T22:20:29Z jmercouris: basically everthing works except for quick I guess 2017-10-03T22:20:40Z jmercouris: that's very strange 2017-10-03T22:20:58Z jmercouris: how did your eql5.pro file look? 2017-10-03T22:21:46Z Gorgias quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-03T22:21:58Z jmercouris: also what OS are you on? how did you install QT? 2017-10-03T22:22:58Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:25:14Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-03T22:25:42Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-03T22:30:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:36:04Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:39:19Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-10-03T22:53:14Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-03T22:58:57Z stylewarning: Is this a bug in flexistreams? http://paste.lisp.org/display/357599 2017-10-03T23:00:01Z _ark_ joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:00:47Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:05:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:06:17Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:07:58Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:09:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-03T23:09:38Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-03T23:12:48Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:23:19Z _death: stylewarning: I don't get this warning when loading flexi-streams-1.0.15 2017-10-03T23:25:42Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:29:04Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:29:16Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:29:59Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-03T23:40:42Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-03T23:42:19Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:45:41Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:46:48Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-03T23:48:32Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:50:16Z Josh_2: I keep running into the error "the octet sequence #(226) cannot be decoded" I'm guessing I can use some sort of error handling to ignore that? 2017-10-03T23:50:32Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-03T23:51:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:52:20Z Bicyclidine: that sounds like you're trying to decode a non-ASCII file as if it was an ASCII file 2017-10-03T23:52:25Z Bicyclidine: which i would recommend not doing. 2017-10-03T23:52:42Z Josh_2: But it is an Ascii file, it's a .lisp file 2017-10-03T23:52:47Z Josh_2: written using Emacs 2017-10-03T23:53:22Z Josh_2: All but one other file isn't causing any issues 2017-10-03T23:53:24Z Bicyclidine: being a lisp file doesn't mean it's ascii 2017-10-03T23:53:40Z Bicyclidine: someone could have snuck in some accents 2017-10-03T23:54:18Z stylewarning: _death: you need to enable function type derivation 2017-10-03T23:54:34Z Josh_2: So I should open it as utf instead? 2017-10-03T23:54:39Z stylewarning: _death: (setq sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t) 2017-10-03T23:55:01Z Bicyclidine: if you know the encoding, you should just that encoding 2017-10-03T23:55:05Z Bicyclidine: i would guess utf8, sure 2017-10-03T23:55:30Z Josh_2: Well I'm processing lots of .lisp files, not sure why these are causing issue. 2017-10-03T23:55:36Z Josh_2: I'll try utf8 2017-10-03T23:56:43Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-03T23:57:12Z Josh_2: UTF-8 worked perfectly. I'm not sure where the unicode characters are in these files but whatever 2017-10-03T23:58:41Z Josh_2: I've written roughly 1809 lines of CL 2017-10-03T23:58:48Z stylewarning: lots of CL 2017-10-03T23:59:07Z Josh_2: Well that's in total 2017-10-04T00:02:21Z stylewarning: Josh_2: what does your Lisp code do 2017-10-04T00:02:59Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2017-10-04T00:03:32Z White_Flame: just look at your file in a simple text editor or hex editor. See what it looks like, especially if that character is multi-byte 2017-10-04T00:03:54Z Josh_2: 1994 lines in lots of various CL things stylewarning not one project 2017-10-04T00:03:56Z White_Flame: if it's multi-byte it's utf-8, else try latin-1 or something 2017-10-04T00:07:16Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-04T00:14:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T00:14:18Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T00:16:21Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-04T00:17:43Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-04T00:21:17Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-04T00:30:01Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-04T00:34:00Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T00:37:28Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T00:48:33Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-04T00:49:03Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-04T00:51:42Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T00:53:59Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-04T01:02:30Z Jonsky quit (Quit: time to fly a kite) 2017-10-04T01:03:33Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-04T01:16:09Z _death: stylewarning: yes, certainly looks like a bug.. https://github.com/edicl/flexi-streams/blob/master/decode.lisp#L216 the body is the char-decoder block, which may return with NIL.. and flexi-streams uses safety 0 :( 2017-10-04T01:17:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-04T01:17:45Z _death: the next step is to use safety 3 and get a test case working 2017-10-04T01:30:57Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-04T01:30:59Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-04T01:32:05Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-04T01:52:55Z Josh_2: huh ecl doesn't seem to be saving the .c file when I use -c 2017-10-04T01:54:44Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T01:59:29Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T02:00:29Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-04T02:07:07Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-04T02:09:02Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-04T02:11:46Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T02:15:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-04T02:16:21Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2017-10-04T02:18:17Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T02:18:30Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T02:21:49Z mr_yogurt joined #lisp 2017-10-04T02:22:08Z mr_yogurt: Are there any differences (to the user) between special forms and macros? 2017-10-04T02:25:26Z Bike: macro forms can be expanded 2017-10-04T02:26:49Z karswell_ is now known as karswell 2017-10-04T02:27:22Z aeth: http://l1sp.org/search?q=macroexpand 2017-10-04T02:28:49Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T02:30:22Z mr_yogurt: anything else? 2017-10-04T02:31:03Z Bike: that's, like, kind of important. 2017-10-04T02:31:16Z Bike: but i suppose everything else flows from that. 2017-10-04T02:32:22Z mr_yogurt: Bike: i'm not sure i understand the implications then. what does that change? 2017-10-04T02:33:33Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T02:35:35Z Bike: well... ok, so what kind of "user" is in play here? 2017-10-04T02:36:22Z mr_yogurt: Bike: well, obviously not me. you? (or a user like you) 2017-10-04T02:40:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-04T02:42:22Z Bike: i do weird things. 2017-10-04T02:42:40Z Bike: well, basically a macro form has a meaning in terms of other things. 2017-10-04T02:42:50Z vtomole: The way I understand, Most of Lisp is built basically from the special forms. More specifically, they define eval (correct me if i'm wrong) 2017-10-04T02:43:03Z vtomole: *used to define eval 2017-10-04T02:43:06Z Bike: loop is a macro; maybe (loop (do-stuff)) macroexpands into (tagbody #:loop (do-stuff) (go #:loop)) 2017-10-04T02:43:22Z Bike: tagbody and go are special operators, and do-stuff is a function. no macros. 2017-10-04T02:43:52Z Bike: then the evaluation semantics can be defined in terms of just a few special operators. 2017-10-04T02:46:10Z vtomole: Could loop also be defined by macroexpanding to recursive procedures? 2017-10-04T02:46:39Z Bike: sure. 2017-10-04T02:47:10Z Bike: (loop (do-stuff)) => (labels ((#:body () (do-stuff) (#:body))) (#:body)) 2017-10-04T03:03:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T03:08:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:11:35Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T03:18:03Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:19:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T03:19:49Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:22:08Z pillton: vtomole: You should also be aware that an implementation is allowed to implement a special operator using a macro function e.g. http://paste.lisp.org/display/357601 2017-10-04T03:25:42Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-04T03:26:20Z vtomole: haha so elegant! What is the MINIMUM number of special forms you can get away with? 5? Quote, Progn, Setq, If, and Lambda? 2017-10-04T03:29:40Z pillton: lambda and funcall 2017-10-04T03:30:03Z pillton: You might need quote. 2017-10-04T03:31:38Z vtomole: Yeah I was wondering if it would be possible to create quote out of lambda and or funcall.. 2017-10-04T03:32:25Z vtomole: clhs funcall 2017-10-04T03:32:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 2017-10-04T03:32:37Z vtomole: clhs apply 2017-10-04T03:32:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2017-10-04T03:33:09Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-04T03:33:35Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:38:34Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T03:39:05Z kjak joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:39:47Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:43:46Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T03:44:12Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:46:14Z stylewarning: I have a tricky piece of Lisp code that breaks SBCL but is ok in CCL. Who is ready for some CONFORMANCE CHECKING??? 2017-10-04T03:49:08Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T03:49:21Z stylewarning: The failing code is https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/d5205c097b73bb1e914f7b82d8f0e51456461461/jump.lisp?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default#jump.lisp-225 2017-10-04T03:50:57Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-04T03:53:09Z stylewarning: Here is the macroexpanded function so you don't have to pick apart everything yourself: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357602 2017-10-04T03:53:27Z stylewarning: I'm wondering if this code is valid 2017-10-04T03:55:00Z pillton: (test-small-hop 1) breaks for me . 2017-10-04T03:56:00Z stylewarning: pillton: it works for me on the first call (where it is constructing the vector for STATIC-STORE) 2017-10-04T03:56:12Z stylewarning: but the second call (when it uses the *same* lambda in STATIC-STORE) fails 2017-10-04T03:56:27Z stylewarning: (in SBCL 1.4.0) 2017-10-04T03:57:34Z pillton: It is something to do with the load-time-value. 2017-10-04T03:58:29Z stylewarning: What about it? It successfully stores into the LTV vector, and retrieves from the LTV vector. 2017-10-04T03:58:53Z pillton: If you replace it with identity, it works on SBCL 1.3.21. 2017-10-04T03:59:47Z stylewarning: yes 2017-10-04T04:01:37Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-04T04:02:17Z stylewarning: beach: check out my riddle above (the paste.lisp link) 2017-10-04T04:04:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T04:04:44Z mr_yogurt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-04T04:06:57Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T04:08:11Z beach: It is pretty long. Where does it fail? 2017-10-04T04:08:39Z _ark_ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-04T04:09:39Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-04T04:09:40Z stylewarning: when you call it twice 2017-10-04T04:09:56Z stylewarning: (fail 0) (fail 0) 2017-10-04T04:11:08Z stylewarning: I'm guessing whatever the reason is described here: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/05_b.htm 2017-10-04T04:12:28Z beach: Well, I haven't even had my morning coffee yet, so I am largely incapable of understanding the code this early. 2017-10-04T04:13:26Z beach: When you said (fail 0), did you mean (hop 0)? 2017-10-04T04:13:48Z beach: Oh, the second link. 2017-10-04T04:13:50Z beach: Sorry. 2017-10-04T04:16:24Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-04T04:16:32Z Ober quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T04:16:43Z beach: Can you explain what it is that you are trying to accomplish? 2017-10-04T04:17:16Z stylewarning: I was trying to accomplish a jump table, which I try every few years 2017-10-04T04:17:31Z stylewarning: (and fail every few years :) 2017-10-04T04:18:03Z beach: I see. 2017-10-04T04:18:46Z beach: A brief inspection suggests that your suspicion is correct, i.e. that the point of exit has been abandoned before you attempt to use it later. 2017-10-04T04:19:41Z beach: But I don't understand the code in detail yet. 2017-10-04T04:20:01Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2017-10-04T04:24:01Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T04:24:10Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T04:24:49Z aoh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-04T04:25:01Z stylewarning: Does a TAGBODY more-or-less generate a unique ID which the GO's also attach themselves to? 2017-10-04T04:25:21Z stylewarning: And that ID changes every time the TAGBODY is entered? 2017-10-04T04:28:26Z akkad joined #lisp 2017-10-04T04:29:03Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-04T04:29:31Z stylewarning: Maybe that's not what a real implementation does, but it seems to match what's going on. The stashed-away GO's in the lambdas match an old tagbody "id" which gets refreshed everytime we re-enter 2017-10-04T04:31:06Z aoh joined #lisp 2017-10-04T04:31:08Z beach: Is it possible that the same vector is re-used several times? 2017-10-04T04:31:48Z beach: If so, the test for NULL fails and the elements are not altered, so they contain old closures. 2017-10-04T04:31:49Z stylewarning: It is being re-used, yes 2017-10-04T04:31:56Z stylewarning: yes, they are old closures 2017-10-04T04:32:08Z beach: Isn't that the explanation then? 2017-10-04T04:32:30Z stylewarning: Probably yes, but I don't understand why a Lisp implementation couldn't (safely) support this 2017-10-04T04:33:31Z beach: It could, but it probably wouldn't be very efficient. I bet things would have to be moved from being stack allocated to being heap allocated. 2017-10-04T04:33:54Z beach: That is typically why the Common Lisp HyperSpec gives this freedom to the implementation. 2017-10-04T04:34:50Z beach: It would require full Scheme-like continuations. 2017-10-04T04:34:58Z stylewarning: Cant you always statically determine which TAGBODY a GO is associated with? 2017-10-04T04:35:30Z beach: Yes, you can. 2017-10-04T04:37:06Z stylewarning: So, why can't a lambda with a GO form capture, say, the address of the TAGBODY, and allow it to only be invoked when within that same TAGBODY, being essentially a jump? 2017-10-04T04:38:14Z stylewarning: I totally understand why this wouldn't work *outside* of lexical extent of the TAGBODY, and why you'd need something like Scheme continuations. 2017-10-04T04:38:50Z beach: I'll examine this thing when I am more awake than now and tell you. :) 2017-10-04T04:39:53Z beach: I don't think it is related to the GOs, but to the RETURN-FROMs. 2017-10-04T04:41:29Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-04T04:49:17Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T04:58:14Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:09:33Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:09:37Z beach: ... and once I figure out how to explain it, it will become an excellent chapter in the book I am working on, entitled "Common Lisp for language implementers". 2017-10-04T05:12:06Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:12:18Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:15:51Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T05:19:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:27:23Z akkad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T05:28:53Z akkad joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:29:00Z nekobasu4 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:29:53Z nekobasu4 left #lisp 2017-10-04T05:30:30Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-04T05:31:29Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T05:36:48Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T05:39:28Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T05:41:24Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:43:35Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:45:58Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:51:23Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:54:54Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:55:39Z Bock quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-10-04T05:56:06Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:56:57Z Bock quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-10-04T05:57:24Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:58:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T05:59:03Z Bock quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-10-04T05:59:31Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:01:00Z nocaberi joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:01:46Z phoe: If I write a function, (SETF FOO), and then do (setf (foo) newval), where does the standard specify that the return value of this function must be NEWVAL itself? 2017-10-04T06:01:56Z phoe: I can't find it right now but I'm sure it is in thereo somewhere. 2017-10-04T06:04:16Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T06:04:27Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T06:04:54Z nocaberi is now known as Bock 2017-10-04T06:05:26Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:05:26Z pillton: clhs 5.1.1.2 2017-10-04T06:05:26Z specbot: Setf Expansions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm 2017-10-04T06:05:31Z pillton: Storing form 2017-10-04T06:06:57Z pillton: clhs tagbody 2017-10-04T06:06:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_tagbod.htm 2017-10-04T06:07:18Z pillton: stylewarning: Is this the bit then: "A tag established by tagbody has lexical scope and has dynamic extent." 2017-10-04T06:09:53Z phoe: pillton: thanks. 2017-10-04T06:11:59Z pillton: stylewarning beach: I think it is if you look at the definition of dynamic extent and extent. 2017-10-04T06:19:38Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T06:28:45Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:30:04Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T06:31:07Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:33:04Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-04T06:33:33Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:43:14Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T06:45:00Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T06:45:15Z beach: pillton: Yes, though, I may have to come up with some more sophisticated explanation. For example, if I can show that, if what stylewarning wants, then some cleanup form established by unwind-protect could be executed twice. 2017-10-04T06:48:47Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:54:49Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-04T06:55:00Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T06:59:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:01:45Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:02:55Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:03:45Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:06:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T07:07:34Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-04T07:07:35Z pjb: phoe: notice that "the correct value for setf to return" is said to be the "storing form" in 5.1.1.2, (also in clhs setf), NOT the newval! 2017-10-04T07:10:00Z shka_: pjb: what does it mean in layman terms? 2017-10-04T07:10:38Z shka_: oh, nevermind 2017-10-04T07:10:41Z shka_: i got to go 2017-10-04T07:10:45Z shka_: see you later 2017-10-04T07:10:58Z hajovonta: hi! 2017-10-04T07:14:16Z pjb: shka: it means you have to return what you actually store, not the argument. 2017-10-04T07:15:11Z pjb: (setf (* 2 x) 4) would store 2 in x… (setf (foo) "foo") may store "FOO" or in any case, a copy of "foo". 2017-10-04T07:15:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T07:16:12Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:16:48Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T07:18:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:18:02Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:21:54Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:22:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:24:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T07:27:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:28:08Z loke: pjb: what would (setf (+ x y) 10) store? :-) 2017-10-04T07:28:34Z pjb: You have to define it. 2017-10-04T07:29:16Z loke: Actually, algebra systems can handle such things. You can say x+y=10 in Maxima, for exmaple... I think? 2017-10-04T07:30:27Z pjb: we may assume that both x and y are pre-defined, so it would be harder to give a good definition. But I guess with stuff like Cells, you could put something in x and y that would ensure the equation x+y=10. 2017-10-04T07:31:16Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:31:52Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T07:32:03Z White_Flame: (setf (/ x y) pi) 2017-10-04T07:32:38Z White_Flame: (yeah, I know, x=pi, y=1) 2017-10-04T07:32:49Z phoe: pjb: tell me more, what does it mean, to return the storing form? 2017-10-04T07:32:54Z phoe: clhs 5.1.1.2 2017-10-04T07:32:55Z specbot: Setf Expansions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm 2017-10-04T07:33:10Z White_Flame: the values in the "store variables" 2017-10-04T07:33:29Z White_Flame: which, as I read it, are the temporary places where the setf values are held for parallel bindng 2017-10-04T07:33:33Z phoe: and store variables are, " 2017-10-04T07:33:36Z phoe: "a list of symbols naming temporary store variables which are to hold the new values that will be assigned to the place. " 2017-10-04T07:33:38Z White_Flame: erm, parallel setting 2017-10-04T07:33:41Z pjb: phoe: the storing form computes the values to be stored by the writer. This is what should be returned, not the newval. 2017-10-04T07:33:49Z pjb: clhs define-setf-expansio 2017-10-04T07:33:49Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for define-setf-expansio. 2017-10-04T07:33:50Z pjb: clhs define-setf-expansion 2017-10-04T07:33:51Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for define-setf-expansion. 2017-10-04T07:33:55Z pjb: clhs define-setf-expander 2017-10-04T07:33:55Z pjb quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-10-04T07:33:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm 2017-10-04T07:35:09Z phoe: minion: memo for pjb: understood. I understand it as, SETF can return multiple values in such case, if there is more than one variable. 2017-10-04T07:35:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-10-04T07:44:00Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T07:46:59Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-04T07:47:35Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T07:50:31Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-04T07:52:51Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-04T07:53:00Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:57:15Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-04T07:59:13Z jameser quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-04T08:00:30Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:04:00Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:05:52Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:07:53Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T08:09:04Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:10:14Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T08:10:43Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:12:45Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-04T08:14:24Z ski: fyi 2017-10-04T08:14:32Z ski: <@netoper:#freenode> channel's opped user where sigyn is present can request /msg Sigyn unkline $nick when the user was recently klined by Sigyn from their channel 2017-10-04T08:14:39Z ski: netoper, how many times can we do this? 2017-10-04T08:14:44Z ski: <@netoper:#freenode> someone: you have around 15 minutes to do that 2017-10-04T08:14:57Z ski: (issue already sorted out, in this case) 2017-10-04T08:18:22Z phoe: ski: huh? what is the context? 2017-10-04T08:18:32Z phoe: another kline storm? 2017-10-04T08:19:17Z ski: pjb above ? 2017-10-04T08:21:32Z phoe: oh, wait, I have joins/parts/quits turned off - I did not notice 2017-10-04T08:21:55Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2017-10-04T08:21:58Z ski: (otherwise, iiuc, the protocol is to request via email that one's kline should be removed, which will typically take at least several hours i imagine) 2017-10-04T08:22:22Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2017-10-04T08:22:32Z phoe: I'm too late then. 2017-10-04T08:22:43Z ski: (in any case, i already talked to an op in #freenode about it, and they said they lifted it) 2017-10-04T08:23:26Z phoe: ski: can you send me the bit of log where pjb was klined? 2017-10-04T08:23:59Z ski: i'm just mentioning this, for possible future use. i've noticed a handful of such misfirings in the past (including having experienced it myself) 2017-10-04T08:24:02Z ski: sure 2017-10-04T08:30:40Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:32:11Z pchrist quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-04T08:32:56Z pchrist joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:34:13Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:36:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T08:37:57Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:39:05Z pjb: phoe: hi! ;-) 2017-10-04T08:39:06Z minion: pjb, memo from phoe: understood. I understand it as, SETF can return multiple values in such case, if there is more than one variable. 2017-10-04T08:40:42Z pjb: phoe: definitely, if the define-setf-expander lists x and y (places in general) in the variable list. cf. get-setf-expansion too 2017-10-04T08:41:23Z phoe: pjb: welcome back! 2017-10-04T08:42:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:42:12Z pjb: The only defect of this system, is that it cannot handle a variable number of multiple values, since define-setf-expansion cannot determine the number of values returned by the getter (it's used by setf itself). 2017-10-04T08:42:56Z pjb: I guess you could instead use multiple-value-list… 2017-10-04T08:44:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T08:46:00Z ski: pjb : wb ! :) 2017-10-04T08:46:40Z beach: Some people here should really work on their mode-specific abbrevs. 2017-10-04T08:47:01Z edgar-rft: pjb, I misread: values returned from the gutter 2017-10-04T08:48:43Z pjb: Some values should better be quite grateful, for we extracted them from the gutter. 2017-10-04T08:49:52Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:53:30Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T08:57:58Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-04T08:58:05Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T08:59:50Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T09:02:16Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-04T09:04:14Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T09:08:26Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T09:11:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T09:22:30Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-04T09:27:08Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T09:39:13Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T09:40:09Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-04T09:41:04Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-04T09:54:18Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T09:54:31Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:06:46Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:06:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-04T10:06:46Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:07:18Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2017-10-04T10:07:19Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:09:10Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:14:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:17:48Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T10:23:28Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T10:26:35Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:34:11Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-04T10:35:07Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:37:20Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:41:35Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T10:47:10Z phoe: Is there some portable utility function to reverse-search a hash-table in O(n)? 2017-10-04T10:47:35Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T10:47:40Z phoe: I want to find any value that satisfies a predicate. 2017-10-04T10:48:07Z loke: phoe: reverse-search a hashtable? Hashtables are not ordered. 2017-10-04T10:48:43Z loke: You mean match by value? 2017-10-04T10:49:14Z loke: (look for v being each hash-value in the-hash when (matches v) return v) 2017-10-04T10:49:30Z loke: Something like that. 2017-10-04T10:52:06Z phoe: loke: yes, thank you. 2017-10-04T10:52:20Z phoe: I know they're not ordered - I want any value that satisfies a predicate. 2017-10-04T10:58:48Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:01:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:02:40Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T11:05:51Z phoe: Is there any relationship between *PRINT-READABLY* and MAKE-LOAD-FORM? 2017-10-04T11:06:49Z Shinmera: No. 2017-10-04T11:06:59Z Shinmera: One is about printing, the other about FASLs. 2017-10-04T11:07:19Z Shinmera: There may be a relationship if you think the load form is appropriate for readable printing. 2017-10-04T11:07:33Z Shinmera: But, not everything that should be FASL dumpable should be readable. 2017-10-04T11:07:51Z Shinmera: And not everything that might be useful to be readable might need to be dumpable. 2017-10-04T11:07:54Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:08:25Z phoe: My issue is: I want one object to print unreadably if *print-readably* is false, but to print something like (MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOO ...) when *print-readably* is true. 2017-10-04T11:08:44Z Shinmera: Then just do that logic in print-object 2017-10-04T11:08:45Z phoe: Can/should I achieve that by writing a PRINT-OBJECT method that checks the value of that variable? 2017-10-04T11:08:55Z phoe: Oh, so this is the way. I see. 2017-10-04T11:09:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T11:14:05Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T11:14:07Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:15:03Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:15:45Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T11:16:04Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T11:17:39Z pjb: phoe: you need to prefix it with #. #.(make-instance …) 2017-10-04T11:18:04Z phoe: pjb: yes, correct. Thanks. 2017-10-04T11:18:14Z pjb: phoe: now consider that the various *print- variables and readtable may be changed. To ensure to be able to read it again in more cases, I would advise to print the symbols fully qualified and escaped. 2017-10-04T11:18:26Z pjb: #.(|CL|:|MAKE-INSTANCE| …) 2017-10-04T11:18:59Z pjb: Similarly, integers should be printed with decimal dot, or with an explicit radix #x #r etc. 2017-10-04T11:19:01Z |3b|: and to somehow enable *read-eval*? 2017-10-04T11:19:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T11:19:04Z phoe: pjb: I know the state of all *print-foo* variables and the package that these are going to be read from. 2017-10-04T11:19:19Z phoe: And all *read-foo* variables. 2017-10-04T11:19:30Z pjb: you want to reduce dependencies. 2017-10-04T11:19:56Z pjb: and |3b| is correct, so a different solution would be to go ahead printing your data in a specific syntax, and to provide a reader macro. 2017-10-04T11:20:02Z pjb: for an example, see gsharp. 2017-10-04T11:20:15Z Shinmera: That just forces the user to a specific readtable 2017-10-04T11:20:15Z |3b|: or just expect the user to READ it in a sane state :) 2017-10-04T11:20:17Z Shinmera: Same problem 2017-10-04T11:20:43Z |3b|: particularly if you are the user 2017-10-04T11:20:45Z pjb: Well, I deem all the settings of the *print- variables sane: it's the user choices. 2017-10-04T11:20:56Z |3b|: sane for reading the data i mean 2017-10-04T11:21:19Z |3b|: with-standard-io-syntax or whatever if needed 2017-10-04T11:21:30Z pjb: perhaps, perhaps not. 2017-10-04T11:21:51Z |3b|: if the user is completely uncooperative, they might not even have a readtable that can parse sexps 2017-10-04T11:22:26Z pjb: If you consider "sane for reading the data", perhaps you want to be able to do something like: (read-from-string (prin1-to-string object)) so using with-standard-io-syntax in there may break it. And not considering the *print- and *read- variable will break too. 2017-10-04T11:22:26Z phoe: pjb: well, I'm the user here. 2017-10-04T11:22:40Z phoe: the files are being written and read only by my private functions. 2017-10-04T11:22:43Z Shinmera: Clearly it should write out to a rootkit that ensures your data can always be read back. 2017-10-04T11:22:51Z |3b|: so rather than trying to cover lots of random settings and then describing all the edge cases to the user, just pick something simple for both, like standard-io-syntax 2017-10-04T11:23:04Z pjb: phoe: so be careful. Perhaps what you want is just a serialization and deserialization function, and you want to take your distances from the lisp reader and printer. 2017-10-04T11:23:35Z pjb: I consider lisp print/read more as a debugging tool than something you can rely for production. 2017-10-04T11:23:46Z phoe: pjb: Lisp reader and writer is a good enough (de)serializer for me in this case. 2017-10-04T11:24:09Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T11:24:17Z hooman: =) 2017-10-04T11:25:46Z hooman: oh, we can produce lisp with just print and read 2017-10-04T11:26:16Z Shinmera: Maybe your printer should infest the intel management engine so even if the user erases everything you can still eventually read back your data. 2017-10-04T11:28:04Z |3b|: just send the data to a cloud-hosted web service for READing :) 2017-10-04T11:29:14Z Shinmera: but what if the user disconnects the network 2017-10-04T11:30:02Z |3b|: and to avoid having to serialize/deserialize it to the web service, we can just send the whole image and restart using the modified image it returns 2017-10-04T11:30:17Z phoe: there should be a quantum chip in there to make sure there are no disconnections 2017-10-04T11:30:27Z pjb: Hook a 3D printer to your computer, and let the program 3D print a mechanical pidgeon to transport the packets with IPoAC. 2017-10-04T11:30:55Z pjb: Even updated for IPv6: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6214 2017-10-04T11:36:54Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T11:36:57Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:44:58Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:46:27Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:50:17Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T11:50:34Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T11:55:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:02:54Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:07:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-04T12:10:11Z mrpat joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:11:46Z mrpat: why does run-program insist on simple-string arguments and how can I coerce simple-base-strings to simple strings? 2017-10-04T12:16:25Z |3b|: (coerce simple-base-string simple-string) ? 2017-10-04T12:17:01Z |3b|: though simple-base-string is a subtype of simple-string 2017-10-04T12:18:34Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T12:18:52Z |3b|: also, which run-program? 2017-10-04T12:19:22Z mrpat: I'm using CCL and when I type-of the coerce statement it gives simple-base-string 2017-10-04T12:20:34Z pjb: mrpat: exactly! Never insist on simple-string, simple-vector, simple-array: it's not the job of library API to tell the user how to store his data! 2017-10-04T12:20:47Z |3b|: yeah, i think it doesn't do anything if it is already a subtype 2017-10-04T12:20:53Z pjb: if the library needs a simple array to optimize out access, it can always make a copy itself! 2017-10-04T12:20:53Z |3b|: what is the error you get? 2017-10-04T12:21:27Z xenon- joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:21:30Z pjb: Coerce is a function you must quote the type descriptor: (coerce simple-base-string 'simple-string) 2017-10-04T12:22:15Z mrpat: yes -still bounces into simple-base-string 2017-10-04T12:22:15Z xenon-: hi. is there a map/remove-if equivalent that takes any sequence, and returns transformed sequence of the same type? in other words string in, string out. list in, list out 2017-10-04T12:22:17Z |3b|: yeah, missed a character there 2017-10-04T12:22:50Z |3b|: xenon-: doesn't remove-if already do that? 2017-10-04T12:23:05Z |3b|: "If sequence is a vector, the result is a vector that has the same actual array element type as sequence. If sequence is a list, the result is a list. " 2017-10-04T12:23:22Z |3b|: and element type is what makes a particular vector a string 2017-10-04T12:23:34Z mrpat: I think it's a process-run-function problem, but it should not be this difficult to create simple-string 2017-10-04T12:23:36Z xenon-: |3b| you seem to be right 2017-10-04T12:23:46Z pjb: copy-seq should make a simple-vector 2017-10-04T12:23:50Z xenon-: |3b| is there a map-likey function that does the same? 2017-10-04T12:23:53Z xenon-: like* 2017-10-04T12:25:04Z |3b| doesn't think so, but you can try (map (type-of a) fun a ...) 2017-10-04T12:25:17Z |3b|: actually, not sure that would work for lists 2017-10-04T12:25:25Z Bicyclidine: or map-into copy-seq 2017-10-04T12:26:47Z |3b|: ah, cons and null are subtypes of list, so should be OK 2017-10-04T12:28:54Z |3b|: mrpat: that is the "Program args must all be simple strings:" error? 2017-10-04T12:29:14Z mrpat: yes 2017-10-04T12:29:51Z jackdaniel: coerce is one way to do that 2017-10-04T12:30:11Z jackdaniel: (mapcar (lambda (s) (coerce 'base-string s)) args) 2017-10-04T12:30:53Z |3b|: simple-base-string should already be a simple-string, try running type-of on all the arguments and see if any are unexpected types 2017-10-04T12:32:39Z |3b|: or just coerce them all to 'simple-string before calling run-program if they are coming from code you don't control 2017-10-04T12:32:59Z |3b|: (or if controlling them elsewhere is too much effort) 2017-10-04T12:33:26Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-04T12:35:02Z mrpat: the first suggestion is what led me to ask, I will work on the second. Thanks for the help, 3b and jd 2017-10-04T12:42:09Z phoe: mrpat: (subtypep 'simple-base-string 'simple-string) ;=> T 2017-10-04T12:42:21Z phoe: your simple-base-string is already a simple-string 2017-10-04T12:42:52Z phoe: you can't tell an egg to be more of an egg than it already is 2017-10-04T12:55:51Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:55:54Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T12:58:23Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:58:48Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T12:59:05Z cgay_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:59:36Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-04T12:59:42Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:00:19Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-04T13:01:08Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T13:01:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:01:35Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T13:02:11Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:02:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T13:09:41Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:12:24Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:14:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:18:07Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T13:28:59Z Shinmera: Some eggs are more egg-like than others. 2017-10-04T13:29:57Z phoe: All eggs are EQL, but some are more EQL than others? 2017-10-04T13:31:11Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:33:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T13:33:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T13:34:56Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:35:27Z Shinmera: I'm sure someone made a language somewhere wherein truth is linear rather than boolean. 2017-10-04T13:35:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:36:31Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-04T13:37:12Z dlowe: Sussman was working on it, last I heard 2017-10-04T13:37:33Z dlowe: He wanted to make programming have tolerances like mechanical engineering 2017-10-04T13:38:21Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T13:42:00Z hajovonta: cool idea 2017-10-04T13:42:45Z hajovonta: maybe facts could have probability ratios and confidence intervals and then we could compute with them 2017-10-04T13:42:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:42:54Z Shinmera: I'm also reminded of the language that had a non-linear concept of execution time. 2017-10-04T13:42:57Z phoe: and suddenly we have analog computing again! 2017-10-04T13:43:48Z hajovonta: (= x 10) ;; with probability=0.1 2017-10-04T13:44:36Z phoe: (= pi 3) ;; for large enough values of 3 2017-10-04T13:45:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T13:45:14Z Bike: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJD5-saXkAE9b0_.jpg analog never left anyway, baby 2017-10-04T13:45:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:45:43Z hajovonta: or something like 'x is between 4.5 and 6.7 with 95% probability' 2017-10-04T13:46:19Z phoe: hajovonta: take a look at screamer 2017-10-04T13:48:34Z scymtym_: screamer is more like prolog with constraints. but i think there is this "church" language that treats program execution as a markov chain monte carlo simulation and thereby approximates the probability distribution over possible program executions 2017-10-04T13:48:40Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:52:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-04T13:53:09Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T13:55:41Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:55:55Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:56:15Z Shinmera: Nice 2017-10-04T13:56:17Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T13:56:35Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:57:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T13:59:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T14:00:34Z xenon- quit (Quit: http://www.okay.uz/ (Ping timeout)) 2017-10-04T14:08:23Z phoe: I just got news that Franz is looking for a Lisp programmer. (No details yet, but I've asked them, and I'll share them as soon as I know anything.) 2017-10-04T14:09:01Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:10:04Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T14:10:36Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:12:47Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T14:13:00Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T14:14:24Z hajovonta: Allegro CL was the first CL that I came into contact with. It's an awesome product. 2017-10-04T14:15:22Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:15:24Z hajovonta: In fact I learned CL with Allegro. I did the first 100 projecteuler problems. Then I ran into the limited heap size constraint, and had to learn Emacs and switched to SBCL. 2017-10-04T14:20:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T14:20:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:22:26Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:29:39Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:31:07Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:33:51Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:39:57Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:41:38Z malice: Hi all! 2017-10-04T14:41:55Z beach: Hello malice. 2017-10-04T14:41:57Z malice: Xach: is there a list of projects' downloads per month, other than the top 100? 2017-10-04T14:42:05Z malice: (from the Quicklisp) 2017-10-04T14:42:19Z jackdaniel:  2017-10-04T14:42:56Z malice: jackdaniel: is this emoji? It seems I don't have that font 2017-10-04T14:43:27Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:44:56Z phoe: malice: AFAIK there is not. Maybe Xach will share more than the top 100 if you ask him nicely. 2017-10-04T14:44:58Z jackdaniel: no, I have accidently pressed enter 2017-10-04T14:45:06Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-04T14:45:11Z jackdaniel: (apparently there was a space in the buffer as well) 2017-10-04T14:45:41Z Xach: malice: i can prepare a list 2017-10-04T14:46:02Z malice: Xach I am just curious. If that is not a problem, I would be glad if you could share that with me. 2017-10-04T14:46:10Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:46:26Z malice: Should I provide you with an email, or something else? 2017-10-04T14:46:50Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:49:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T14:49:50Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T14:49:54Z Xach: malice: https://www.quicklisp.org/tmp/dls.html 2017-10-04T14:52:06Z malice: Thank you very much. 2017-10-04T14:53:36Z tokenrove quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T14:54:23Z phoe: Xach: there should be more frequent stats like that 2017-10-04T14:54:42Z phoe: I often wondered about e.g. download stats of my projects, none of which are in top 100. 2017-10-04T14:55:18Z mrpat quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-04T14:56:07Z malice: That was my motivation too 2017-10-04T14:56:21Z shka: somebody want's to check out documentation for my project? 2017-10-04T14:56:22Z shka: https://sirherrbatka.github.io/cl-data-structures/main.html#4313452350706669631 2017-10-04T14:56:24Z shka: :-) 2017-10-04T14:56:25Z malice: phoe: guess you have to try harder to get to top 100 then! 2017-10-04T14:56:26Z malice: :) 2017-10-04T14:56:30Z phoe: malice: ;_; 2017-10-04T14:56:52Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:58:01Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T14:58:04Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T14:58:48Z tokenrove joined #lisp 2017-10-04T14:59:45Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-10-04T15:03:06Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:05:32Z XachX: phoe: I think so too 2017-10-04T15:06:31Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:07:21Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:07:35Z phoe: XachX: then we are of similar minds. this makes me very content. 2017-10-04T15:09:55Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:11:26Z malice: Is there some pattern for CL for creating so called "abstract classes", i.e. classes which can't have any instance? 2017-10-04T15:11:32Z malice: (used for inheritance) 2017-10-04T15:11:33Z phoe: malice: yes, protocol classes. 2017-10-04T15:11:37Z phoe: let me google a bit 2017-10-04T15:12:05Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T15:12:26Z phoe: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/blob/3dc3876dd1bc7e9a802c49968426ea691a5df5cb/Core/clim-basic/protocol-classes.lisp#L24 2017-10-04T15:12:47Z phoe: malice: warning, GNU LGPL. 2017-10-04T15:14:15Z malice: Thanks. 2017-10-04T15:14:17Z phoe: I really wish this single macro was licensed differently. 2017-10-04T15:14:27Z malice: I was thinking of similar "hack" for initialize-instance 2017-10-04T15:14:29Z dlowe: write your own clean room implementation :) 2017-10-04T15:14:43Z malice: But I thought that maybe there's another canonical way 2017-10-04T15:14:45Z malice: Thanks for help! 2017-10-04T15:15:38Z phoe: dlowe: I might, perhaps. 2017-10-04T15:15:42Z Bike: there's no specific provision in clos for enforcing that a class shouldn't be instantiated, if that's what you mean. 2017-10-04T15:19:33Z dlowe: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357643 2017-10-04T15:19:58Z dlowe: licensed as WTFPL :p 2017-10-04T15:20:22Z dlowe: also untested :D 2017-10-04T15:22:12Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-04T15:23:09Z phoe: dlowe: I figure it's nicer to ask the original author first. 2017-10-04T15:24:23Z dlowe: phoe: hm? I never looked at the code. I'm the original author of that paste. 2017-10-04T15:25:46Z beach: Bike: That macro checks and errors if the class is instantiated. 2017-10-04T15:26:05Z phoe: dlowe: I mean the original macro from the McCLIM code. 2017-10-04T15:28:40Z phoe: Mail sent, we'll see if I get a response. 2017-10-04T15:28:54Z dlowe: phoe: I think you're being overly thoughtful about a triviality. 2017-10-04T15:29:41Z phoe: dlowe: I am fully aware of this. 2017-10-04T15:34:20Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-04T15:35:10Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-04T15:35:53Z shka: well, you can signal error in initialize-instance 2017-10-04T15:36:09Z beach: phoe: Tell moore33 hello from me. :) 2017-10-04T15:37:29Z shka: beach: good evening 2017-10-04T15:37:35Z beach: Hey shka. 2017-10-04T15:38:46Z phoe: beach: will do if I get a response. :) 2017-10-04T15:39:43Z beach: If you don't within a few days, let me know. 2017-10-04T15:39:49Z beach: ... and I'll remind him. 2017-10-04T15:43:07Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-04T15:43:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T15:46:30Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:47:01Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:49:48Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:51:58Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-04T15:52:06Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T15:53:53Z phoe: beach: T 2017-10-04T15:59:23Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:01:39Z malice: Is there some existing macro that adds CONTINUE as one of the restarts? 2017-10-04T16:01:49Z malice: I think there is one, but I can't remember the name 2017-10-04T16:01:52Z phoe: malice: CONTINUE what? 2017-10-04T16:02:07Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-04T16:02:12Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T16:02:16Z beach: clhs continue 2017-10-04T16:02:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_contin.htm 2017-10-04T16:02:21Z phoe: every CONTINUE restart needs to do something when invoked. 2017-10-04T16:03:10Z phoe: as in, every CONTINUE restart needs to have some logic that is run when that restart is invoked. 2017-10-04T16:03:58Z malice: I was looking for CERROR. Thanks. 2017-10-04T16:04:01Z phoe: and that logic depends on what you want to do in the context: ignore an error and continue loading a system, continue running something despite stumbling upon an error... 2017-10-04T16:04:05Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:04:25Z malice: Yes, by continue I meant ignoring the error. Looks like cerror does just that. 2017-10-04T16:04:28Z phoe: Oh, that. Right, it allows you to continue executing your code that is past the CERROR call. 2017-10-04T16:04:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:04:56Z phoe: Google's Lisp style guidelines have a huge rule saying "never use CERROR", but oh well, it does have its uses. 2017-10-04T16:05:45Z malice: Why would you not use it? 2017-10-04T16:08:38Z phoe: ...wait, I am wrong. 2017-10-04T16:08:48Z phoe: I read it somewhere, and it's not Google's style guide. 2017-10-04T16:09:26Z phoe: Disregard me then. 2017-10-04T16:10:01Z malice: I think that's perfectly valid form to use. 2017-10-04T16:14:57Z hooman: lines of guidance for lisp from google ? 2017-10-04T16:15:10Z phoe: hooman: yes, google "lisp style guide". 2017-10-04T16:15:19Z beach: I think Fare wrote them when he worked for Google. 2017-10-04T16:15:47Z hooman: ok 2017-10-04T16:16:19Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T16:16:48Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T16:17:12Z hooman: oh https://github.com/bbatsov/emacs-lisp-style-guide must be something else 2017-10-04T16:17:27Z phoe: hooman: that's emacs lisp 2017-10-04T16:19:21Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:20:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:21:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:24:29Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:24:35Z Harag: is anybody seriously(for commercial) using clack? Is it worth it? I have been using hunchentoot for 10 years and never had any performance issues... 2017-10-04T16:24:52Z phoe: Harag: clack uses hunchentoot as a default backend 2017-10-04T16:25:21Z Harag: phoe: yeas saw that was just curious to try woo 2017-10-04T16:26:43Z Harag: phoe: I have my own web framework was wondering if I should seperate it from hunchentoot 2017-10-04T16:27:06Z phoe: Harag: I see. I don't complain about hunchentoot myself. 2017-10-04T16:27:43Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:28:28Z Harag: phoe: I was just trawling the web and their is a lot of "mouthing" off about clack and a whole lot of frameworks (not one of which i really liked) so was wondering if I am missing some wow factor 2017-10-04T16:28:48Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T16:28:48Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-10-04T16:28:49Z phoe: Harag: I don't know about "wow factor". 2017-10-04T16:29:17Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T16:29:19Z malice: I've tried lucerne and I liked it. 2017-10-04T16:29:50Z malice: It's much simpler than clack. Probably misses some functionality, but writing missing things is trivial due to the simplicity. Imho that's a nice thing. 2017-10-04T16:32:30Z Shinmera: Isn't lucerne built on clack 2017-10-04T16:32:33Z Harag: malice: yeah the ...stuff like this .. @route app "/"... just is not lispy to me I spent the first 10 years of my life learning new syntax , I have been very happy just dealing with () for the past 10 ;) 2017-10-04T16:33:21Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:33:31Z Shinmera: Harag: What do you mean by "mouthing off"? 2017-10-04T16:34:39Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T16:34:56Z lnostdal quit (Quit: lnostdal) 2017-10-04T16:35:05Z Harag: Shinmera: that state of lisp article ... stop using hunchentoot use clack... I say back it up with some decent docs 2017-10-04T16:35:19Z malice: Shinmera: I'm not sure, I thought it wasn't. 2017-10-04T16:35:22Z Shinmera: Ah. Well. A lot of people disagree with a lot of what that article says. 2017-10-04T16:35:30Z Shinmera: malice: I'm quite sure. It's right there in the .asd 2017-10-04T16:35:38Z malice: Shinmera: Then it does :) 2017-10-04T16:36:00Z Shinmera: malice: Anyway, clack is intended to be used to build a framework, not really to be used directly, for what that's worth. 2017-10-04T16:36:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T16:36:24Z malice: Harag: You don't have to use the @ syntax, although I can't see why that would be a bad thing. 2017-10-04T16:38:45Z malice: Shinmera: (possible vague question incoming) what's the (main) difference between Clack and Radiance? 2017-10-04T16:39:17Z Harag: malice: cant see why it is a good thing either... its just personal preference... I also dont like regex expressions because I think it takes to much brain power to diciper 6 weeks after you wrote it ... hey its purely preference ;) 2017-10-04T16:39:21Z Shinmera: Radiance is a web application environment, and Clack is a http server abstraction, is what I would say. 2017-10-04T16:39:24Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:39:30Z malice: I see. 2017-10-04T16:39:37Z malice: Why didn't you use clack though? 2017-10-04T16:39:47Z malice: You could have, right? 2017-10-04T16:39:50Z Shinmera: Because I do the http server abstraction better, in my opinion. 2017-10-04T16:39:59Z malice: Fair enough :) 2017-10-04T16:40:15Z Shinmera: Radiance is more fundamental in how it abstracts things. Using clack for just the server component would not have meshed well. 2017-10-04T16:42:24Z Shinmera: Though you probably could write an implementation for the server interface that just uses clack. 2017-10-04T16:42:51Z Shinmera: Actually I'm certain you could. 2017-10-04T16:43:00Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:43:13Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T16:46:20Z Harag: Shinmera: I need to dig into how radiance does modules... 2017-10-04T16:47:55Z Shinmera: Harag: do you mean how it implements what it considers "modules", or how it conceptually does the division into components? 2017-10-04T16:48:09Z Shinmera: "module" is a bit of a loaded term, unfortunately. 2017-10-04T16:50:39Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T16:51:43Z Harag: how it implements what it consider modules 2017-10-04T16:51:55Z phoe: Shinmera: überloaded term, you say 2017-10-04T16:52:19Z Shinmera: Harag: That's done through the modularize library. http://shinmera.github.io/modularize/ 2017-10-04T16:52:31Z Harag: would plugin be a better term? 2017-10-04T16:53:10Z Shinmera: Not for my case 2017-10-04T16:53:45Z Shinmera: Plugin sounds more like something that extends the core functionality of the system, rather than just being a component of some form. 2017-10-04T16:54:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:54:44Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:55:51Z Harag: ok... i need to do plugins... I have everything and the synq in my webframework licenses,modules,users menu's database intergration but I want to split modules into plugins ... plugin for crm system, plugin that does hr, plugin that does procurement etc. 2017-10-04T16:56:50Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-04T16:59:06Z Harag: I currently have a couple of business systems that use the framework but I need to get them to play nice together.... 2017-10-04T17:00:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T17:07:16Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T17:12:16Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-04T17:14:33Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T17:17:10Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-04T17:17:56Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-04T17:20:28Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-04T17:23:09Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-04T17:23:47Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-04T17:29:28Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 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#lisp 2017-10-04T18:07:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T18:07:26Z Harag: good night 2017-10-04T18:07:43Z dto: hi xach 2017-10-04T18:12:00Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:13:32Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T18:14:32Z dto: hey everyone. wasn't sure where else to ask, all avenues have failed. i'm looking in earnest for a copy of "Instructor's Manual for Critical Thinking" by Francis Watanabe Dauer, Oxford University Press 1989. it's the companion volume to "Critical Thinking: An Introduction to Reasoning" by same author. over time i've come to learn that many lispers have extensive bookshelves and/or some were/are instructors, so i thought i would take a 2017-10-04T18:14:32Z dto: chance and see if someone here could suggest where to find one, or has one and would like to part with their copy. 2017-10-04T18:14:55Z dto: 2017-10-04T18:15:46Z dcluna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T18:16:27Z dto: in case i get disconnected, my email is dto@xelf.me thanks in advance to anyone who can help. 2017-10-04T18:20:20Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:20:58Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:23:43Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:29:50Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T18:29:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:30:20Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T18:32:43Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T18:36:23Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T18:36:54Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T18:37:45Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:38:00Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:38:23Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T18:38:38Z alexmlw left #lisp 2017-10-04T18:38:42Z nika quit 2017-10-04T18:38:56Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-04T18:46:39Z sellout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T18:48:00Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T18:50:15Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-04T18:52:29Z 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seconds) 2017-10-04T19:37:12Z weltung joined #lisp 2017-10-04T19:38:35Z weltung_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T19:43:48Z Lord_of_Life quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-10-04T19:46:39Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T19:46:57Z weltung_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T19:48:17Z weltung quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T19:50:04Z tavurth joined #lisp 2017-10-04T19:50:11Z tavurth: Hi 2017-10-04T19:50:33Z tavurth: If I have a assoc: '(:a 1 :b 2) 2017-10-04T19:50:54Z tavurth: How can I mutate that so that '(:a 2 :b 2) without side effects? 2017-10-04T19:51:05Z tavurth: Is map really the most efficient way to do so? 2017-10-04T19:51:14Z tavurth: (Shallow map only) 2017-10-04T19:51:58Z tavurth: I want to write a stateful tree 2017-10-04T19:52:02Z dlowe: No, because the tail of your alist could share structure with the original 2017-10-04T19:52:30Z dlowe: I don't think there's a built-in function that changes a value without mutating. Seems simple enough to create one, though. 2017-10-04T19:53:07Z tavurth: @dlowe, I've come back to lisp after some time away, that may be beyond me at this point) 2017-10-04T19:53:29Z dlowe: on the other hand, unless you have an alist with billions of entries, I really just wouldn't worry about it 2017-10-04T19:53:53Z tavurth: The problem is, I hope to be collecting new states once every few milliseconds 2017-10-04T19:53:59Z tavurth: I was wondering about the GC 2017-10-04T19:54:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-04T19:55:11Z dlowe: I still wouldn't worry about it until it became a measurable problem. 2017-10-04T19:55:23Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T19:55:30Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-10-04T19:55:44Z tavurth: Ok, good point. I'll run with an abstracted map keys for now, and refactor later if I start to see slowdown 2017-10-04T19:56:03Z tavurth: Thank you :) 2017-10-04T19:57:32Z dlowe: no problem. 2017-10-04T19:59:04Z bigdaddytank quit (Quit: Peace out!) 2017-10-04T20:00:07Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-04T20:03:44Z juki: @tavurth I was just writing about places in CL, and used immutable plists as an example. Not an especially well tested / optimized solution (since it was just a quick example), but see the UPDATE-PROPERTY function here http://juki.gitlab.io/cl/setf.html (the article is still WIP) 2017-10-04T20:05:50Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-04T20:06:49Z tavurth: @juki, thanks! I'll take a look 2017-10-04T20:09:18Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:09:29Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-04T20:13:15Z tavurth: (append (remove 'b '((a 1) (a 2) (b 1)) :test #'eql :key #'first) '((b 3))) 2017-10-04T20:13:21Z tavurth: Perhaps something like this 2017-10-04T20:14:01Z tavurth: Although I see that (copy-alist) exists 2017-10-04T20:14:04Z tavurth: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Association-Lists.html 2017-10-04T20:14:19Z tavurth: I'll do some quick perf testing 2017-10-04T20:17:54Z zachk joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:18:44Z hooman: what do you want to do ? add (:a 1) to (:a 1 :b 2) ? 2017-10-04T20:19:32Z tavurth: @hooman, I want to change :a => 2 without changing the initial state 2017-10-04T20:19:45Z dlowe: actuall 2017-10-04T20:19:55Z dlowe: you know you can just cons (:a 2) to the front of the alist 2017-10-04T20:20:01Z dlowe: and assoc will pick it up first 2017-10-04T20:21:52Z hooman: what is the initial state ? 2017-10-04T20:22:44Z tavurth: @dlowe, won't that mean I've got an ever expanding stack? 2017-10-04T20:22:48Z tavurth: Here's an example 2017-10-04T20:23:00Z tavurth: https://paste.ofcode.org/FsdjMnt8KdVA6z2KKRbZHh 2017-10-04T20:23:19Z tavurth: (copy-alist) is 40% faster 2017-10-04T20:24:38Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:26:03Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T20:26:42Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:27:04Z dlowe: dont append to the back, cons to the front 2017-10-04T20:27:55Z dlowe: but remove is doing to create a completely new list here. 2017-10-04T20:29:50Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:31:59Z dlowe: tavurth: https://paste.ofcode.org/hkRaS6AfwxuQkdARatHpuW 2017-10-04T20:32:06Z dlowe: I haven't tested it, but that should be faster 2017-10-04T20:34:14Z tavurth: Yeah, it comes out at 3.353 vs 3.478 for the copy-list 2017-10-04T20:37:07Z sukaeto: Harag: I use Clack at work. Performance is good for what we do. We use Hunchentoot in development and FastCGI in prod - it's really trivial to do that with Clack. 2017-10-04T20:37:38Z sukaeto: Harag: that being said, if you're happy with your current setup, I wouldn't be one to advocate switching. 2017-10-04T20:37:48Z tavurth: Although the new state becomes: ((B 3) (A . 1) (B . 2) (C . 1)) 2017-10-04T20:37:59Z tavurth: B . 3 2017-10-04T20:42:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:52:28Z weltung joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:54:24Z weltung_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T20:58:38Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T20:59:43Z tavurth: Oh I found a really fast solution using (rplacd) 2017-10-04T21:00:33Z tavurth: It's 50% the speed of (remove), and doesn't lead to large cons groups after many reductions 2017-10-04T21:00:34Z tavurth: https://paste.ofcode.org/JAyqz6HbYmKuaVvuhy8A9p 2017-10-04T21:00:51Z tavurth: Sorry, takes 50% the time, 2x the speed 2017-10-04T21:01:02Z juki` joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:03:01Z phoe: tavurth: rplacd is destructive, just keep that in mind. 2017-10-04T21:03:18Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:04:10Z Shinmera: Why one would use rplaca/d instead of just setf car/cdr is beyond me. 2017-10-04T21:04:37Z juki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-04T21:05:19Z White_Flame defines an expander for (setf (rplacd x) val) 2017-10-04T21:07:08Z tavurth: @Shinmera, I'm looking to generate states based on an assoc array 2017-10-04T21:07:26Z tavurth: As far as I can remember, setf doesn't work well 2017-10-04T21:07:32Z tavurth: Maybe I'm wrong 2017-10-04T21:07:52Z tavurth: @phoe, yes, I'll copy the state first, then mutate 2017-10-04T21:08:45Z tavurth: @dlowe, the version you suggest works well until I make a self reduction many many times, then it seems to fail, I don't know why :( 2017-10-04T21:08:57Z tavurth: I get a long string of cons cells in slime 2017-10-04T21:10:05Z tavurth: Ok, thanks guys I've got some options to play around with at least :) 2017-10-04T21:13:48Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T21:14:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T21:16:03Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T21:16:41Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:16:41Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T21:18:11Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-04T21:18:15Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:20:44Z Josh_2: How do I compile my program using ECL when I'm pulling in a library with Quicklisp? 2017-10-04T21:21:16Z Josh_2: I just get an error saying there is no package with name ql although I load the setup.lisp file at the start of my program 2017-10-04T21:27:28Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T21:29:02Z phoe: Josh_2: how are you compiling your program? 2017-10-04T21:29:20Z tavurth quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-04T21:29:27Z Josh_2: Using ecl -compile 2017-10-04T21:29:34Z Josh_2: From Bash 2017-10-04T21:29:46Z phoe: Don't, there 2017-10-04T21:29:51Z phoe: there's no need to. 2017-10-04T21:29:54Z phoe: What do you want to achieve? 2017-10-04T21:31:42Z White_Flame: are you loading setup.lisp from a separate toplevel form? 2017-10-04T21:31:54Z White_Flame: (progn (load "setup.lisp) (ql: ...)) would fail at the reader level 2017-10-04T21:32:04Z White_Flame: (even with correct quote balancing :-P) 2017-10-04T21:32:33Z Josh_2: No progn 2017-10-04T21:32:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T21:33:14Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:33:40Z Josh_2: I'm trying to get a nice and small binary I believe 2017-10-04T21:33:42Z Josh_2: something like that 2017-10-04T21:35:55Z phoe: Josh_2: ask on #ecl how to get it to build binaries 2017-10-04T21:36:03Z phoe: ...or I believe there are some cross-implementation solutions for that 2017-10-04T21:36:20Z phoe: most likely package UIOP/IMAGE has ECL-compatible solutions 2017-10-04T21:38:24Z Josh_2: I got it 2017-10-04T21:39:00Z Josh_2: I wanted a standalone. My bad 2017-10-04T21:40:47Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-04T21:42:08Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:42:27Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-10-04T21:43:27Z phoe: ECL can compile binaries that are good to go 2017-10-04T21:43:33Z phoe: it's just that you don't do it by -compile 2017-10-04T21:43:42Z Josh_2: Yeh I got it, I did it in Slime 2017-10-04T21:43:45Z phoe: which most likely compiles a .lisp file into a .fasl file for fast loading 2017-10-04T21:43:58Z Josh_2: You compile a .o file then use that to make a standalone program 2017-10-04T21:46:32Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:47:29Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-04T21:47:33Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:48:10Z phoe: oh! 2017-10-04T21:48:20Z phoe: in this case, I don't know too much about ECL. 2017-10-04T21:48:36Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T21:48:55Z Josh_2: I normally use SBCL but I wanted to make a small executable, so I thought I'd compile in ECL 2017-10-04T21:51:45Z weltung_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:52:03Z Xof joined #lisp 2017-10-04T21:53:35Z weltung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T21:58:43Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-04T22:06:13Z EvW2 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T22:07:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-04T22:08:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T22:08:10Z EvW2 is now known as EvW 2017-10-04T22:10:41Z juki` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-10-04T22:12:11Z pmetzger_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T22:12:12Z pmetzger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T22:14:23Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T22:15:01Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-04T22:15:01Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T22:19:45Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T22:22:53Z Josh_2: *smashes head on keyboard* Says CL-FAD works on ECL, however it doesn't seem to be doing what the documentation says it should. 2017-10-04T22:23:35Z phoe: Josh_2: CL-FAD is deprecated, use UIOP instead. 2017-10-04T22:23:42Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-04T22:23:55Z Josh_2: O 2017-10-04T22:24:00Z Josh_2: Will do! 2017-10-04T22:32:55Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-04T22:34:14Z dim: Josh_2: why is the size of the binary a concern? 2017-10-04T22:34:25Z dim: also, did you try with an --compress-core on SBCL? 2017-10-04T22:35:04Z Josh_2: I've not actually tried a SBCL version. I will try that after I get something that works how I want. 2017-10-04T22:35:18Z dim: as a data point, my pgloader binary weights around 21MB 2017-10-04T22:35:32Z dim: that's with --compress-core, otherwise it's 100MB 2017-10-04T22:35:54Z Josh_2: my first version is currently 37kb 2017-10-04T22:37:01Z dim: oh wow 2017-10-04T22:37:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T22:37:15Z dim: it depends in libc at runtime tho, right? 2017-10-04T22:37:34Z dim: but why is the size of the binary important? 2017-10-04T22:37:42Z Josh_2: I'd assume so. It compiles to a C file, then uses GCC to compile that C file. 2017-10-04T22:37:44Z anunnaki_ joined #lisp 2017-10-04T22:39:20Z anunnaki_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-04T22:41:05Z aindilis` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-04T22:48:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-04T22:52:29Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-10-04T22:56:42Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:02:00Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-04T23:02:06Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:07:24Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-04T23:10:04Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:10:32Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:15:46Z WorldControl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T23:17:26Z anunnaki quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-04T23:17:59Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:18:42Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:19:02Z Josh_2: So I'm not sure if this is a bug or not.. http://i.imgur.com/F1n9Uie.png (directory* ..) doesn't print the contents of the directory when given a directory pathspec, neither does (directory-files ..) 2017-10-04T23:24:48Z pillton: It needs to match against pathspec. Try (directory* "/home/josh/Documents/Lisp/programs/**.*"). 2017-10-04T23:25:04Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T23:25:32Z pillton: Oh sorry. 2017-10-04T23:25:43Z pillton: Try (directory* "/home/josh/Documents/Lisp/programs/**/*.*"). 2017-10-04T23:26:04Z Josh_2: Nope 2017-10-04T23:26:24Z Josh_2: AAaaand ECL crashed. 2017-10-04T23:27:42Z hooman: what to do! 2017-10-04T23:27:42Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:29:35Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-04T23:36:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:38:54Z fe[nl]ix: Josh_2: try to recover the black box 2017-10-04T23:39:04Z Josh_2: Killed it already 2017-10-04T23:40:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-04T23:40:56Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:41:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:41:38Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-10-04T23:43:25Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-04T23:48:43Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-04T23:52:03Z hooman: last LispWorks release, 2015? okay.. 2017-10-04T23:55:18Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-04T23:58:10Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T00:01:21Z marvin2 quit 2017-10-05T00:04:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T00:09:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T00:09:35Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-05T00:11:54Z _ark_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T00:17:12Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T00:18:19Z yaocl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T00:21:56Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-05T00:26:39Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T00:26:58Z cgay_: Would y'll say that http://www.cliki.net/Common+Lisp+implementation is still more or less up-to-date? 2017-10-05T00:27:25Z cgay_: yuh all...y'all 2017-10-05T00:28:44Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-05T00:30:45Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T00:33:42Z aeth: CLISP, while technically actively developed, hasn't released a new version in a long time. 2017-10-05T00:34:50Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-05T00:35:54Z aeth: I'm not sure about the order of the first list. It's not alphabetical. And it's not in recommended order, or at least not an order I'd recommend. I'd recommend to try SBCL, then CCL, then ECL. 2017-10-05T00:36:16Z aeth: And SBCL works fine on Windows afaik. 2017-10-05T00:48:46Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-05T00:52:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T00:55:01Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T00:55:54Z dto: last i heard SBCL support on winows is no longer "experimental" and the kitten of death is gone 2017-10-05T00:56:27Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-05T00:57:12Z mrpat joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:01:19Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T01:02:27Z marcux quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-05T01:02:45Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:04:01Z marcux quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T01:04:56Z cgay_: OMG please 'splain me the kitten 'o death! 2017-10-05T01:05:24Z Bike: when you started sbcl on windows there was a message like "This is experimental. Your kitten of death awaits!" or suchlike 2017-10-05T01:06:01Z cgay_: oh. That's not nearly as exciting as I'd hoped. :) 2017-10-05T01:06:05Z weltung joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:06:17Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:07:05Z weltung_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T01:09:28Z marcux quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T01:11:30Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T01:13:21Z weltung_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:14:08Z weltung quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T01:21:17Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:27:22Z drwooly joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:29:05Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T01:31:23Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:34:14Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:35:48Z yottabyte: the little schemer's 6th commandment is "Simplify only after the function is correct." Can there be a corollary to optimize only after the function is correct? I find so many of my coworkers trying to optimize things from the get go, and often times it's unnecessary and only slows them down 2017-10-05T01:36:15Z yottabyte: I mean in an ideal world we'd have infinite time to spend as long as we want optimizing things, even the most trivial things which would never need such effort, but alas 2017-10-05T01:36:28Z mrpat quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-05T01:38:46Z AlexOn365 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:50:55Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2017-10-05T01:52:24Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T01:57:53Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z names: ccl-logbot Guest48568 milanj H4ns` aphprentice yottabyte yaocl drwooly weltung_ wheelsucker _ark_ Harag cromachina anunnaki aindilis thinkpad pillton Lord_of_Life pmetzger_ epony Xof Bike sjl jdz scymtym safe edgar-rft rswords schoppenhauer dcluna eschatologist dto zooey raynold emaczen arbv tokenrove al-damiri saki hexfive yeticry dddddd cgay_ knicklux SAL9000 DeadTrickster froggey shka pchrist nowhereman akkad aoh cpt_nemo GGMethos kjak MrBismuth 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z names: Oladon AxelAlex groovy2shoes cgay nydel mnoonan wooden Merv moei babalua joast araujo pmden Sigyn ym xantoz salva omilu tessier ryanbw vyzo Posterdati daemoz renard_ davsebamse slyrus fluxit whyNOP Kevslinger foom2 nowolfer Ichimusai drcode vaporatorius Guest43159 Khisanth Guest21598 itruslove megalography mrcom Xal hooman kozy kslt1 grumble midre Tristam les dmiles troydm hotbobby mathrick Zhivago White_Flame msb zaquest sword Mandus QualityAddict 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z names: gilberth otwieracz galdor Patzy gigetoo loke heurist` azrazalea kini vibs29 joga vsync Guest55162 beaky rotty danieli ninegrid myrkraverk runejuhl tonton beach cess11 lxpz easye Colleen equalunique[m] @fe[nl]ix specbot minion Blkt jsnell Shinmera isoraqathedh Intensity shenghi nopf c0dehero abbe sepi ski kushal arrsim AntiSpamMeta flazh whartung hjudt dim mingus clog cyberlard fluter cibs holly2 zacts ineiros ikopico malm guna sveit ggherdov catern 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z names: Tordek __main__ Fade krator44 dotcra Poeticode neuri8 gabot spacepluk cods djh_ koisoke_ TeMPOraL eagleflo sbryant koenig mulk butterthebuddha kolko drot stee_3 karstensrage SlashLife tfb antoszka jibanes creat himmAllRight sebastien_ flip214 hvxgr hiq[m] nicdev eMBee benny reu dxtr argoneus djinni` vhost- rjeli chocolait tokik Cthulhux snits sigjuice p_l terrorjack jyc jasom akash47 swflint jself gbyers askatasuna ck_ ecraven tmc spudinski amerlyq 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z names: fiddlerwoaroof Lord_Nightmare devlaf luis phoe astronavt[m] trigt[m] ArthurAGleckler[ thorondor[m] hdurer[m] l04m33[m] CharlieBrown Jach[m] dahs81[m] Sovereign_Bleak happy_gnu[m] RichardPaulBck[m ketralnis lonjil DGASAU ``Erik dmh convexferret XachX kilimanjaro stylewarning Meow-J splittist lispyone gko odin copec zotan nhandler alphor funnel alandipert Oddity razzy eli ssake shaftoe michalisko aeth jrm wladz theBlackDragon Ziemas libre-man sarkic 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z names: Ellenor SiCC nikivi emma ntinos a7f4 gingerale |3b| cyraxjoe angular_mike___ zkat billstclair rvirding tobel pankracy dan64 justinmcp zymurgy mfiano brandonz nimiux larme payphone drdo pacon stux|RC-only fouric bitch malcom2073 jurov raydeejay mrSpec MetaYan ircbrowse AeroNotix xristos arrdem misv phadthai cmatei eschulte danlentz cross ft add^_ micro_ j0ni e brucem gz_ drmeister lieven voidlily chu z0d Walex pok Xach jackdaniel uint Nikotiini borodust 2017-10-05T02:02:13Z names: banjiewen Aritheanie ramus intrigue gabiruh larsen TMA sukaeto Firedancer tkd _death dlowe mood rann CEnnis91 tomaw d4gg4d_ aaronjensen alms_clozure felideon l1x mjl joeygibson jerme_ trig-ger adulteratedjedi bailon gendl mbrock asedeno 2017-10-05T02:02:21Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T02:03:24Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:05:32Z Guest48568 is now known as caffe 2017-10-05T02:05:41Z caffe quit (Changing host) 2017-10-05T02:05:41Z caffe joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:06:34Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:07:11Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T02:08:47Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:09:49Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-10-05T02:16:56Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T02:19:03Z pmetzger_ quit 2017-10-05T02:20:25Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-05T02:20:35Z saki quit (Quit: saki) 2017-10-05T02:20:50Z trn joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:21:28Z stylewarning: yottabyte: that’s pretty commonly understood 2017-10-05T02:21:58Z yottabyte: stylewarning! 2017-10-05T02:22:15Z yottabyte: what are you doing here my long lost friend 2017-10-05T02:22:32Z stylewarning: write Lisp all day erry day 2017-10-05T02:22:37Z yottabyte: im scheming 2017-10-05T02:22:39Z yottabyte: are you proud of me 2017-10-05T02:23:00Z stylewarning: Yes 2017-10-05T02:23:53Z yottabyte: :> 2017-10-05T02:29:40Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:32:43Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:35:39Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T02:35:58Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:36:22Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:38:01Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T02:40:18Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:44:00Z yottabyte quit (Quit: gn) 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z names: ccl-logbot eminhi quazimodo daemoz vancan1ty flazh trn impulse caffe milanj H4ns` aphprentice yaocl drwooly weltung_ wheelsucker _ark_ Harag cromachina anunnaki aindilis thinkpad pillton Lord_of_Life epony Xof sjl jdz scymtym safe edgar-rft rswords schoppenhauer dcluna eschatologist dto zooey raynold emaczen arbv tokenrove al-damiri yeticry dddddd cgay_ knicklux SAL9000 DeadTrickster froggey shka pchrist nowhereman akkad aoh cpt_nemo GGMethos kjak MrBismuth 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z names: Oladon groovy2shoes cgay nydel mnoonan wooden Merv moei babalua joast araujo pmden Sigyn ym xantoz salva omilu tessier ryanbw vyzo Posterdati renard_ davsebamse slyrus fluxit whyNOP Kevslinger foom2 nowolfer Ichimusai drcode vaporatorius Guest43159 Khisanth Guest21598 itruslove megalography mrcom Xal hooman kozy kslt1 grumble midre Tristam les dmiles troydm hotbobby mathrick Zhivago White_Flame msb zaquest sword Mandus QualityAddict gilberth otwieracz galdor 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z names: Patzy gigetoo loke heurist` azrazalea kini vibs29 joga vsync Guest55162 beaky rotty danieli ninegrid myrkraverk runejuhl tonton beach cess11 lxpz easye Colleen equalunique[m] @fe[nl]ix specbot minion Blkt jsnell Shinmera isoraqathedh Intensity shenghi nopf c0dehero abbe sepi ski kushal arrsim AntiSpamMeta whartung hjudt dim mingus clog cyberlard fluter cibs holly2 zacts ineiros ikopico malm guna sveit ggherdov catern Tordek __main__ Fade krator44 dotcra 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z names: Poeticode neuri8 gabot spacepluk cods djh_ koisoke_ TeMPOraL eagleflo sbryant koenig mulk butterthebuddha kolko drot stee_3 karstensrage SlashLife tfb antoszka jibanes creat himmAllRight sebastien_ flip214 hvxgr hiq[m] nicdev eMBee benny reu dxtr argoneus djinni` vhost- rjeli chocolait tokik Cthulhux snits sigjuice p_l terrorjack jyc jasom akash47 swflint jself gbyers askatasuna ck_ ecraven tmc spudinski amerlyq fiddlerwoaroof Lord_Nightmare devlaf luis phoe 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z names: astronavt[m] trigt[m] ArthurAGleckler[ thorondor[m] l04m33[m] dahs81[m] CharlieBrown Jach[m] hdurer[m] Sovereign_Bleak happy_gnu[m] RichardPaulBck[m ketralnis lonjil DGASAU ``Erik dmh convexferret XachX kilimanjaro stylewarning Meow-J splittist lispyone gko odin copec zotan nhandler alphor funnel alandipert Oddity razzy eli ssake shaftoe michalisko aeth jrm wladz theBlackDragon Ziemas libre-man sarkic Ellenor SiCC nikivi emma ntinos a7f4 gingerale |3b| 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z names: cyraxjoe angular_mike___ zkat billstclair rvirding tobel pankracy dan64 justinmcp zymurgy mfiano brandonz nimiux larme payphone drdo pacon stux|RC-only fouric bitch malcom2073 jurov raydeejay mrSpec MetaYan ircbrowse AeroNotix xristos arrdem misv phadthai cmatei eschulte danlentz cross ft add^_ micro_ j0ni e brucem gz_ drmeister lieven voidlily chu z0d Walex pok Xach jackdaniel uint Nikotiini borodust banjiewen Aritheanie ramus intrigue gabiruh larsen TMA 2017-10-05T02:44:45Z names: sukaeto Firedancer tkd _death dlowe mood rann CEnnis91 tomaw d4gg4d_ aaronjensen alms_clozure felideon l1x mjl joeygibson jerme_ trig-ger adulteratedjedi bailon gendl mbrock asedeno 2017-10-05T02:45:45Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T02:48:26Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:49:36Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:52:15Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:53:03Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-05T02:53:58Z jmercouris: Hey everyone, got a strange file system error today: https://imgur.com/a/iJcaZ 2017-10-05T02:54:01Z jmercouris: any idea what it means? 2017-10-05T02:56:11Z loke: jmercouris: which CL implementation is that? 2017-10-05T02:56:17Z jmercouris: ecl 2017-10-05T02:56:30Z jmercouris: loke: ecl 2017-10-05T02:56:33Z loke: I guess the file help.doc doesn't exist? 2017-10-05T02:56:46Z jmercouris: Well, it's a little more complex than just saying ecl 2017-10-05T02:56:55Z jmercouris: but what I am wondering is how to parse that that file path means 2017-10-05T02:57:00Z jmercouris: like what does it mean in terms of an actual unix file path 2017-10-05T02:58:24Z loke: jmercouris: It's a Lisp path. It's mapped using a logical pathname 2017-10-05T02:58:48Z jmercouris: yeah I've read about lisp pathnames, but can't remember anything 2017-10-05T02:58:54Z jmercouris: ultimately though it must be resolved to a physical path on the disk 2017-10-05T02:59:00Z jmercouris: how can I found out what it is resolved to? 2017-10-05T02:59:25Z loke: type: (logical-pathname-translations "SYS") 2017-10-05T02:59:37Z jmercouris: this piece of software I've written runs on my machine, but not on another persons Mac, so the question I'm trying to answer is, where is this file trying to be loaded from, and how can I either include it in the app bundle, or remove it 2017-10-05T02:59:43Z loke: that will tell you where it will be looking for the file. 2017-10-05T02:59:57Z jmercouris: ah, that's actually a very appropriately named function 2017-10-05T03:00:39Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-05T03:02:22Z jmercouris: loke: thank you for the information 2017-10-05T03:02:34Z jmercouris: I wonder why it is doing this now, but was not doing it before :\ 2017-10-05T03:03:34Z loke: You've moved files around? 2017-10-05T03:03:58Z jmercouris: Not exactly, but kind of in a way 2017-10-05T03:04:03Z jmercouris: basically I'm trying to produce a standalone binary 2017-10-05T03:04:14Z jmercouris: and so other users will have different files 2017-10-05T03:04:24Z jmercouris: but in a previous version of my program, it did not have this complaint on other people's computers 2017-10-05T03:11:50Z loke: jmercouris: you should be able to adjust the pathname translations to match the location where the user installed his files. 2017-10-05T03:13:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:14:51Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:15:13Z eminhi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:16:47Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:17:02Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:17:41Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2017-10-05T03:17:51Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:19:17Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:22:26Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-05T03:23:33Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T03:23:58Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:24:12Z jmercouris: loke: that's an interesting idea, but ideally I'd like to simply not load this file, as this is part of a distributable binary 2017-10-05T03:24:26Z jmercouris: I was thinking about how to modify the ecl sources to avoid loading this file, or maybe looking for a compiler flag 2017-10-05T03:24:46Z jmercouris: maybe the way in which I am compiling is actually wrong, and it would normally not be including these sources 2017-10-05T03:27:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:28:10Z stylewarning: What's the right way to execute things around the compilation of a system? 2017-10-05T03:28:17Z stylewarning: Usually there's some asdf magic you can play 2017-10-05T03:29:40Z jmercouris: stylewarning: what do you mean? 2017-10-05T03:30:01Z jmercouris: Basically here's what I am doing with asdf, I am turning the whole sort of system into a lib, which I am then offloading in C 2017-10-05T03:30:11Z jmercouris: not sure if "offloading" is the right word, but I mean loading 2017-10-05T03:30:38Z jmercouris: stylewarning: here's my asd file: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/next.asd 2017-10-05T03:30:46Z jmercouris: stylewarning: here's my make file: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/make.lisp 2017-10-05T03:30:48Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-05T03:31:12Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:35:35Z stylewarning: jmercouris: here's a cool trick, you can use :pathname "lisp/" 2017-10-05T03:35:44Z stylewarning: instead of typing "lisp/" everywhere 2017-10-05T03:37:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:38:46Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:39:47Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:40:14Z jmercouris: stylewarning: I didn't know that, thanks! 2017-10-05T03:40:43Z stylewarning: jmercouris: Also use MERGE-PATHNAMES instead of this (format nil "~Afoo.ext") business 2017-10-05T03:40:44Z stylewarning: :) 2017-10-05T03:41:00Z stylewarning: (merge-pathnames "file.ext" "/path-to-file/") 2017-10-05T03:41:05Z _ark_` joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:41:09Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:41:10Z jmercouris: stylewarning: in which file do you see me doing that? in the makefile? 2017-10-05T03:41:15Z stylewarning: yes 2017-10-05T03:41:45Z jmercouris: ah yeah, definitely need to fix that 2017-10-05T03:42:09Z jmercouris: the make file is pretty sloppy as it is a WIP, getting a standalone binary to compile has been nightmare fuel 2017-10-05T03:42:29Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:42:48Z _ark_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:43:03Z stylewarning: im happy to send a patch for little things like that 2017-10-05T03:43:12Z stylewarning: but i probs don't have the requirements to load/test the system 2017-10-05T03:43:26Z jmercouris: stylewarning: I can test on my system no problem 2017-10-05T03:43:46Z jmercouris: stylewarning: all prs happily reviewed :P 2017-10-05T03:45:05Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:45:42Z pillton: stylewarning: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Controlling-file-compilation.html 2017-10-05T03:45:45Z drwooly quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-05T03:46:03Z pillton: You can specify an :around-compile option. 2017-10-05T03:46:35Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T03:48:22Z stylewarning: If there's anything the Lisp world needs, it's better ASDF documentation. :S 2017-10-05T03:48:26Z drwooly joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:48:38Z jmercouris: asdf is an enigma to me 2017-10-05T03:49:07Z jmercouris: there's just too little I know, but I suspect that's true for 99% of programmers in 99% of build environments 2017-10-05T03:49:15Z jmercouris: like how many people truly understand makefiles 2017-10-05T03:49:49Z pillton: How many people truly understand autoconf? 2017-10-05T03:49:49Z stylewarning: The thing is, I think ASDF is actually understandable. 2017-10-05T03:50:07Z stylewarning: pillton: ASDF has less of an excuse, because it's integrated with the Lisp environment 2017-10-05T03:50:11Z jmercouris: yeah I don't think anybody actually understands autoconf, probably not even the authors :D 2017-10-05T03:50:15Z stylewarning: but autoconf is its own crazy thing 2017-10-05T03:50:34Z jmercouris: ASDF could definitely be understood though, I think if there was just like a really simple tutorial that just gradually got more complex and then a good reference, yeah it'd be good 2017-10-05T03:50:48Z pillton: I like ASDF. What are you trying to do? 2017-10-05T03:50:51Z jmercouris: I never did quite find that good tutorial for ASDF though 2017-10-05T03:50:57Z _ark_` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:50:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:51:15Z jmercouris: more or less I have some behavior that ECL tries to load a help.doc in /usr/local/lib/ecl 2017-10-05T03:51:31Z jmercouris: I am thinking that perhaps I am compiling my binary wrong, and a monlothic library should not be trying to load this file 2017-10-05T03:51:38Z pillton: What loads the file? 2017-10-05T03:51:47Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:52:01Z jmercouris: pillton: it's built into ecl, I'm not sure where in the source, I did a rgrep for the filename and came up with ~10 results 2017-10-05T03:52:23Z pillton: Why does it load it? When does it happen? 2017-10-05T03:52:41Z jmercouris: It loads it as soon as I am starting ECL, I'm not sure what the purpose of the file is, the name seems to imply some sort of documentation 2017-10-05T03:53:09Z jmercouris: I can show you the candidates, or you can rgrep them yourself, not sure which is easier 2017-10-05T03:53:11Z stylewarning: pillton: example, that page doesn't seem to actually describe *what* the function can be/do 2017-10-05T03:53:44Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-05T03:53:45Z stylewarning: what's the signature of the function? (function ( (function ()) )) ? 2017-10-05T03:54:03Z jmercouris: pillton: I'm using ecl 16.1.3 from here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/release/ 2017-10-05T03:54:10Z jmercouris: the file is simply named help.doc 2017-10-05T03:55:19Z jmercouris: here's the results of the grep: https://gist.github.com/480a543b8fd178a259c70cd423520684 2017-10-05T03:55:25Z stylewarning: I guess this is the relevant line: "A non-nil value designates a function of one argument that will be called with a function that will invoke compile-file* with various arguments; the around-compile hook may supply additional keyword arguments to pass to that call to compile-file*." 2017-10-05T03:55:33Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T03:59:48Z pillton: Perhaps try messing around with si::*keep-documentation* and ext:*documentation-pool*. 2017-10-05T04:00:09Z pillton: Or wait until jackdaniel arives here and ask him. 2017-10-05T04:00:35Z jmercouris: pillton: Is 6am in Poland, I don't know if I want to wait that long :\ sent an email to ecl-devel, so we'll see 2017-10-05T04:01:20Z pillton: Email it is then. 2017-10-05T04:01:34Z jmercouris: thank you for your help any way, I appreciate it! 2017-10-05T04:01:56Z pillton: Sorry I couldn't help. 2017-10-05T04:02:11Z jmercouris: no problem at all! I mean this is an edge of an edge case, I don't expect many people are running my stack lol 2017-10-05T04:04:01Z dto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T04:04:23Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-05T04:07:00Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:11:09Z nika_ quit 2017-10-05T04:11:44Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T04:12:41Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T04:15:54Z EvilAngel joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:19:21Z EvilAngel quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T04:20:37Z EvilAngel joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:22:56Z EvilAngel quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T04:23:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:24:43Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T04:25:15Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:29:59Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:38:23Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:38:32Z jackdaniel: fyi I've sned answer to the mailing list 2017-10-05T04:42:10Z EvilAngel joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:43:14Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:43:21Z EvilAngel quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T04:48:28Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T04:48:41Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:53:26Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:55:40Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-05T04:59:54Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T05:02:49Z drwooly quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I still push on to asdf:*central-registry*. 2017-10-05T06:00:21Z earl-ducaine: i.e. writing extentions that that have dependancies that need to be loaded. 2017-10-05T06:01:19Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:01:40Z pillton: It is pretty straightforward if you use :serial t. 2017-10-05T06:02:39Z jackdaniel: I think earl-ducaine asks about extensions to ASDF itself 2017-10-05T06:02:55Z jackdaniel: earl-ducaine: just add your "extension"-system as dependency in :defsystem-depends-on 2017-10-05T06:04:05Z earl-ducaine: Correct. I had this great (slightly hairbrained) idea that I would going to create a wrapper around cmake that would alow you to bundle c/c++ code with you're lisp and compile it all together. 2017-10-05T06:04:42Z earl-ducaine: Basically one section of your ASDF file would be a Makefile. 2017-10-05T06:05:07Z pillton: Well, defsystem-depends-on doesn't solve the need to do weird stuff like https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/grovel/asdf.lisp#L150 2017-10-05T06:05:25Z pillton: Extensions are hard. I agree with that. 2017-10-05T06:06:06Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2017-10-05T06:06:06Z aoh joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:06:55Z earl-ducaine: jackdaniel: it looked like that should work to me too. But for some reason the systems I was expecting to be available weren't. 2017-10-05T06:07:10Z pillton: I refuse to do what is done in CFFI so I keep using eval-when like the old days. 2017-10-05T06:07:28Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T06:07:34Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:07:58Z jackdaniel: pillton: file you have linked is implementaion of said extension 2017-10-05T06:08:18Z jackdaniel: s/said/such/ 2017-10-05T06:08:47Z jackdaniel: to use groveller (and it's file types) you do :defsystem-depends-on ("cffi-groveller") 2017-10-05T06:08:49Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:09:12Z earl-ducaine: In any case what I was trying was probably not practicle.... But the biggest impediment was that I couldn't picture in my head what ASDF was doing and therefor I didn't even know where to start troubleshooting. 2017-10-05T06:10:18Z jackdaniel: earl-ducaine: defsystem-depends-on systems (and their dependencies) are loaded, before further defsystem processing is happening 2017-10-05T06:10:24Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:10:45Z jackdaniel: so basically you implement ASDF extension in "ordinary" system, and you put this new system as dependency in :defsystem-depends-on 2017-10-05T06:11:27Z jackdaniel: not that I like ASDF architecture, just saying that his scenario is covered 2017-10-05T06:11:33Z jackdaniel: s/his/this/ 2017-10-05T06:11:38Z pillton: jackdaniel: Without those setf forms you would have to use cffi-grovel:grovel-file in your system definition. This would signal an error upon reading the system definition because the package cffi-grovel would not exist. 2017-10-05T06:12:39Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:12:39Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2017-10-05T06:12:39Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:12:49Z jackdaniel: pillton: ah, that's what you mean, right. fact, that asd files are "ordinary" lisp files is the biggest flaws of asdf imho 2017-10-05T06:13:32Z pillton: That or the design of packages. 2017-10-05T06:14:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T06:15:01Z jackdaniel: I like packaging system in CL, things would be much worse without it. To "solve" this setf "issue" one could do (in-package #:asdf) instead of (in-package #:cffi-grovel) 2017-10-05T06:15:23Z jackdaniel: and that would be approximation of not having packages (at least locally for asdf extensions) 2017-10-05T06:17:19Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:19:05Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:19:34Z pillton: I am certainly not advocating a single namespace. I just think the package system in its current form does not scale. 2017-10-05T06:19:52Z earl-ducaine: jackdaniel: Rereading the asdf dockment I think that might have been my problem, i.e. I hadn't noticed that there was both depnds-on and defsystem-depends-on. 2017-10-05T06:22:05Z earl-ducaine: Your suggested approach of writting everything as an ordinary asdf system and then including it using defsystem-depends-on didn't even occure to me. That would have saved me a ton difficults with respect to trying to debug and figure out why things weren't working. 2017-10-05T06:24:33Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T06:29:06Z emaczen: Can you use https with hunchentoot:define-easy-handler? 2017-10-05T06:32:25Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-05T06:34:28Z jackdaniel: emaczen: I think that depends on the acceptor 2017-10-05T06:34:38Z jackdaniel: if it is ssl acceptor, then easy handler will go with https 2017-10-05T06:34:47Z jackdaniel: if not, then it will go with http 2017-10-05T06:35:05Z emaczen: yes that's right now that I recall some details. 2017-10-05T06:35:09Z jackdaniel: earl-ducaine: glad I could put you on a good track 2017-10-05T06:35:23Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-05T06:35:35Z emaczen: I usually have an easy-acceptor that haven't dealt explicitly with in a bit. 2017-10-05T06:37:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-05T06:45:03Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T06:45:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:47:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-05T06:59:30Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T06:59:34Z earl-ducaine: Anyone familiar with cl-fad? I'm getting an odd result for cl-fad:pathname-equal: 2017-10-05T06:59:35Z earl-ducaine: https://gist.github.com/2aa8cc1f0cbcfa7ccd9256f63380e723 2017-10-05T07:00:20Z earl-ducaine: ^ returns nil (sbcl) when I would expect t 2017-10-05T07:01:26Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T07:01:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:05:09Z Shinmera: earl-ducaine: (pathname-version #p"/") vs. (pathname-version #p"/foo") 2017-10-05T07:05:40Z Shinmera: since p-d-p does not eliminate the version you get the mismatch. 2017-10-05T07:05:58Z loke: Are you sure? 2017-10-05T07:06:02Z Shinmera: I am. 2017-10-05T07:06:06Z Shinmera: I just tested it. 2017-10-05T07:06:09Z loke: The mismatch happens at the call to PATHNAME-NAME-EQUAL 2017-10-05T07:06:52Z loke: (cl-fad::pathname-name-equal *a* *b*) ⇒ NIL 2017-10-05T07:07:07Z Shinmera: https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRReU9BPT0= 2017-10-05T07:07:45Z loke: Shinmera: Right. But if you look at the implementation of PATHNAME-EQUAL it checks several things, and theit won 2017-10-05T07:07:49Z loke: t evet get to the version check 2017-10-05T07:07:57Z loke: it already fails on PATHNAME-NAME-EQUAL 2017-10-05T07:08:31Z Shinmera: That's odd, then. 2017-10-05T07:08:38Z loke: Right. That's what I'm saying 2017-10-05T07:09:00Z loke: Unless I made a mistake... hang on... 2017-10-05T07:09:04Z earl-ducaine: oh... probably because it things any name with a period in it is a file. 2017-10-05T07:09:24Z earl-ducaine: s/things/thinks/ 2017-10-05T07:09:31Z loke: You're right 2017-10-05T07:09:37Z loke: it was a typo on my part 2017-10-05T07:09:57Z loke: It' 2017-10-05T07:10:07Z loke: It's definitely the version, just like Shinmera said. 2017-10-05T07:10:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:10:47Z Shinmera wonders whether he should include a way to ignore components in pathname-utils' pathname= 2017-10-05T07:11:40Z loke: The defauly should probably to ignore :VERSION :-) 2017-10-05T07:11:54Z loke: After all, EQUAL on pathnames (on SBCL) doeems to do so) 2017-10-05T07:12:15Z Shinmera: Well, I have a PATHNAME=, and a PATHNAME-EQUAL. 2017-10-05T07:12:32Z Shinmera: The latter does a truename comparison, though. 2017-10-05T07:13:01Z saki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T07:13:08Z Shinmera: I guess I'll add a :ignore-version argument. 2017-10-05T07:13:51Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:14:52Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:18:15Z Shinmera: Woop. http://shinmera.github.io/pathname-utils/?refresh#PATHNAME-UTILS:PATHNAME= 2017-10-05T07:18:19Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-05T07:18:26Z saki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T07:26:05Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:26:05Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:27:26Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T07:36:25Z nicklaf joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:48:19Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:50:53Z panji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T07:53:12Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T07:54:35Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T07:54:39Z daemoz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T08:00:29Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:04:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T08:05:42Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:15:10Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T08:19:46Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-05T08:20:22Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-05T08:22:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:22:33Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T08:23:31Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:28:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:33:15Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:33:32Z loke: Shinmera: that was quick 2017-10-05T08:40:42Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:43:35Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T08:44:34Z Shinmera: It was also a trivial change :) 2017-10-05T08:45:36Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:45:45Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:48:24Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T08:48:41Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T08:48:52Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:50:56Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-05T08:53:21Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T08:57:34Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-05T08:57:54Z flip214: I still don't "get" CFFI with respect to its pointer handling. 2017-10-05T08:58:14Z flip214: I've got a library with some initialize(void **foo) function... 2017-10-05T08:59:08Z flip214: and it initializes the destination stored in the pointer 2017-10-05T08:59:27Z flip214: and later on I need to pass the pointer _data_ on, how would I do that in CFFI? 2017-10-05T08:59:51Z flip214: (let ((foo (make-pointer 0))) (initialize foo)) 2017-10-05T09:00:13Z flip214: passes the _content_ (in this case the 0) to the function, right? 2017-10-05T09:00:49Z flip214: so how would I tell CFFI to pass the address of the pointer to that function? 2017-10-05T09:09:47Z easye: flip214: Not actually sure, but I think you want to get a "shared memory reference" from CFFI to pass. 2017-10-05T09:09:52Z beach: Pointers are values. They don't have addresses. Only l-values have addresses, like variables, struct fields, etc. 2017-10-05T09:10:44Z flip214: beach: thanks... 2017-10-05T09:11:30Z flip214: I found a stackoverflow that says to use mem-ref: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35841771/common-lisp-cffi-pointer-to-the-pointer 2017-10-05T09:11:33Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T09:11:43Z flip214: playing around with that right now 2017-10-05T09:11:48Z flip214: easye: also, thanks ;) 2017-10-05T09:16:17Z loke: flip214: In 99% of cases where void ** is used, it's being used incorrectly (i.e. not following the spec) 2017-10-05T09:17:12Z loke: flip214: If you want to pass a pointer to a pointer (which I presume you want the function to fill in, do this: 2017-10-05T09:17:20Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T09:18:07Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:18:40Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:19:12Z loke: (with-foreign-object (p '(:pointer :void)) (some-function p)) 2017-10-05T09:19:58Z flip214: loke: hmmm, thanks.... 2017-10-05T09:20:27Z flip214: but if I read the CFFI manual correctly the (:pointer :void) etc. things are just _documentation_? 2017-10-05T09:20:47Z flip214: so I'd have understood that CFFI would pass the pointer _value_ in, not the _address_ 2017-10-05T09:21:03Z papachan quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T09:24:55Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:27:36Z manny8888 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-05T09:27:45Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:29:02Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:29:33Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T09:33:31Z heurist` is now known as heurist 2017-10-05T09:34:11Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:34:46Z jibanes joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:36:32Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:38:35Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T09:40:12Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2017-10-05T09:44:05Z loke: flip214: The '(:pointer :void) allocates enough space for a pointer. The :void part would only be useful on paltforms where pointers to different things have difference sizes, but I don't believe CFFI supports any such platforms 2017-10-05T09:44:58Z loke: the key is WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT, which will returns a pointer to some memory. That memory is big enough to hold a pointer. The thing you pass to the function is therefore a pointer to a pointer. 2017-10-05T09:49:02Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:50:56Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T09:55:06Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-05T09:55:44Z flip214: loke: thanks, trying 2017-10-05T09:58:25Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T10:02:41Z nicklaf quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T10:03:30Z nicklaf joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:03:32Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:09:32Z gorgor joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:15:19Z merv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:16:15Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-05T10:17:29Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:21:04Z merv_ quit 2017-10-05T10:21:20Z merv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:22:23Z merv_ is now known as Merv_ 2017-10-05T10:27:45Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:27:46Z Merv is now known as Guest85274 2017-10-05T10:28:41Z Merv_ is now known as pootler 2017-10-05T10:30:43Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-05T10:37:38Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:37:53Z Guest85274 is now known as morthwyl 2017-10-05T10:40:51Z pootler quit 2017-10-05T10:42:56Z morthwyl quit 2017-10-05T10:43:08Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T10:44:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:47:07Z nicklaf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-05T10:47:09Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:47:09Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T10:47:56Z nicklaf joined #lisp 2017-10-05T10:57:42Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-10-05T11:01:04Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T11:01:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T11:01:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T11:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T11:06:36Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T11:11:42Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T11:19:27Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T11:21:18Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-05T11:29:19Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T11:37:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-05T11:40:21Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T11:44:41Z nicklaf quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-05T11:48:32Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-05T11:49:59Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:02:09Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T12:04:15Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:08:21Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:09:10Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-10-05T12:09:23Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-10-05T12:10:58Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:17:16Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-05T12:19:56Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:30:44Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T12:32:50Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:38:20Z abrcdbr joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:39:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T12:39:35Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T12:42:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:42:56Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:43:33Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T12:45:35Z kslt1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-05T12:46:39Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:47:16Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T12:47:24Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:48:28Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:51:03Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T12:51:18Z himmAllRight quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-05T12:52:34Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:53:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:54:50Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:56:54Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:58:02Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-05T12:58:39Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T12:58:46Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:01:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:03:36Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T13:03:44Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:04:40Z malice: How can I set the slot of the class to the name of the class? 2017-10-05T13:04:43Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-05T13:04:48Z malice: I've tried this, but it looks like it's not working: http://paste.lisp.org/+7O09 2017-10-05T13:04:51Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:05:12Z malice: basically I've got clox-error base class that is a subclass of error, and then other error classes that derive from clox-error. 2017-10-05T13:05:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T13:05:34Z malice: I thought that putting this code in there would set the slot to the proper value 2017-10-05T13:06:13Z malice: Instead I get SIMPLE-ERROR telling me that slot error-name is unbound 2017-10-05T13:06:57Z |3b|: are you allowed to make-instance ERRORs? 2017-10-05T13:06:59Z _death: error is not a class, it is a condition type 2017-10-05T13:07:40Z malice: I thought it was both. 2017-10-05T13:07:43Z |3b|: well, it is a class too, just not a standard-class 2017-10-05T13:07:57Z malice: I am not making-instance ERRORS. I create them with ERROR/CERROR. 2017-10-05T13:08:20Z |3b|: " make-condition, not make-instance, must be used to create condition objects explicitly. " 2017-10-05T13:08:22Z malice: I just thought it would create a condition object, and so I wanted to make fill the error's error-name slot with the class name 2017-10-05T13:08:38Z |3b|: clhs condition 2017-10-05T13:08:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_cnd.htm 2017-10-05T13:08:42Z _death: 3b: despite it having a "Class Precedence List" entry, I've not seen evidence for this 2017-10-05T13:09:47Z |3b|: clhs 9.1.1 2017-10-05T13:09:47Z specbot: Condition Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aa.htm 2017-10-05T13:09:53Z |3b|: "The metaclass of the class condition is not specified. " 2017-10-05T13:10:08Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:10:47Z _death: 3b: the committee wanted to make it possible for CLOS-less implementations to support conditions 2017-10-05T13:10:47Z malice: So is there some (preferably portable!) way to set condition's slot to the condition's name? So clox-error's error-name would be "Clox-error", and the another-error that derives from clox-error would have a error-name slot filled with "Another-error"? 2017-10-05T13:11:56Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-10-05T13:12:11Z |3b|: _death: right, being a class isn't a particularly useful property of condition, since you can't do much with it :) 2017-10-05T13:12:13Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:12:22Z _death: 3b: doesn't seem like much of a class if you can't subclass it.. and note it uses the term "supertype".. I think the use of "class" and "class precedence list" is just simple confusion 2017-10-05T13:12:52Z jackdaniel: malice: (define-condition clox-error (error) ((name :initarg :name :initform "Clox-error"))) 2017-10-05T13:13:07Z malice: jackdaniel: yes, but then I would have to do the same for each of the subclasses. 2017-10-05T13:13:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:13:20Z malice: And the goal was to provide an easy way of setting it automatically. 2017-10-05T13:13:21Z jackdaniel: yes, that's basically how inheritance works 2017-10-05T13:13:34Z _death: 3b: since they can't portably be used as classes, I think it's best to just consider them nonclasses, even if they may be represented as classes in certain implementations 2017-10-05T13:13:38Z malice: I could do that with macro, but that seems like an overkill. 2017-10-05T13:14:03Z jackdaniel: syntactic sugar causes cancer of the parenthesis 2017-10-05T13:15:41Z |3b|: _death: i think you can still define methods on them 2017-10-05T13:17:10Z scymtym_: malice: your slot will have a reader, right? just replace that with (defmethod clox-error-name ((condition clox-error)) (string-capitalize (type-of condition))) 2017-10-05T13:18:47Z malice: scymtym_: Now that's a simple idea that has never crossed my mind. 2017-10-05T13:19:48Z |3b| quit (Quit: b) 2017-10-05T13:20:30Z malice: scymtym_: Perfect. I have overcomplicated this. Thank you for help! 2017-10-05T13:20:53Z |3b| joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:21:07Z saki joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:22:17Z _death: 3b: it seems there are classes that correspond to condition types.. so you can count on the class precedence list and can specialize on them 2017-10-05T13:22:29Z _death: clhs 4.3.7 2017-10-05T13:22:29Z specbot: Integrating Types and Classes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm 2017-10-05T13:27:01Z phoe: clhs 9.1 2017-10-05T13:27:01Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm 2017-10-05T13:27:03Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T13:27:06Z phoe: "A hierarchy of condition classes is defined in Common Lisp." 2017-10-05T13:27:24Z phoe: so you can specialize on condition classes 2017-10-05T13:29:25Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:34:41Z _death: yes.. so there are condition types and corresponding classes, which are not standard classes 2017-10-05T13:35:44Z _death: good, the issue is now settled in my mind ;) 2017-10-05T13:36:37Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-05T13:37:37Z Josh_2: tutorialspoint.com gets closing parentheses wrong... putting them on the next line. 2017-10-05T13:42:55Z phoe: Josh_2: where? 2017-10-05T13:42:57Z phoe: give me links 2017-10-05T13:45:44Z phoe: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/ could use an update in general 2017-10-05T13:47:06Z Josh_2: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/lisp_error_handling.htm 2017-10-05T13:50:33Z phoe: this page is shit 2017-10-05T13:51:11Z phoe: very bad indentation, dangling parens, single quotes interpreted as strings 2017-10-05T13:51:12Z phoe: guhhh 2017-10-05T13:51:19Z dlowe: and they're calling it LISP :) 2017-10-05T13:51:22Z Josh_2: It's pretty ugly 2017-10-05T13:51:23Z phoe: Josh_2: do yourself a favor and stop using it, there are better resources. 2017-10-05T13:51:26Z phoe: dlowe: GRRRRRR 2017-10-05T13:51:32Z Josh_2: I don't use it 2017-10-05T13:51:33Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-05T13:51:34Z _death: "error format-string &rest args It signals a fatal error. It is impossible to continue from this kind of error; thus error will never return to its caller." 2017-10-05T13:51:35Z Josh_2: I mean normally anyways 2017-10-05T13:51:40Z phoe: Josh_2: good. 2017-10-05T13:51:42Z dlowe: yeah, this is pretty terrible 2017-10-05T13:51:44Z _death: didn't they just show how to continue in the previous section 2017-10-05T13:52:00Z dlowe: I wonder who wrote it 2017-10-05T13:52:10Z Josh_2: But I don't understand the error handling chapter in PCL 2017-10-05T13:52:17Z phoe: Josh_2: then ask questions 2017-10-05T13:52:34Z phoe: go work on PCL's error handling, and ask here or on #clnoobs any questions you might have 2017-10-05T13:52:55Z Josh_2: waits for pjb to make a joke about googling stuff 2017-10-05T13:53:22Z _death: Josh_2: I recommend Kent Pitman's articles.. http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Exceptional-Situations-1990.html http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 2017-10-05T13:53:41Z phoe: Josh_2: nothing to google in this case. Tell us what you don't understand in PCL's error handling page, or the articles from kmp that _death just posted. 2017-10-05T13:53:59Z dlowe: huh. you can execute common lisp right in the site. 2017-10-05T13:54:53Z phoe: dlowe: it's been possible for a long time, ever since people started hooking compilers to webpages 2017-10-05T13:55:26Z Josh_2: I've never done error handling past try: and except in Python, so it is actually a new concept. I'll ask questions when I get stuck. I'll also read those articles _death thanks. 2017-10-05T13:56:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T13:57:38Z pjb: or just check the logs ;-) 2017-10-05T13:59:46Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:02:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:04:48Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-05T14:10:33Z lnostdal quit (Quit: lnostdal) 2017-10-05T14:12:15Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T14:14:54Z abrcdbr quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-05T14:19:47Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:26:15Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T14:27:44Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:28:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:34:36Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T14:41:09Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:44:56Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-05T14:47:08Z dim: hi 2017-10-05T14:47:27Z dim: beach: may I ask how you typically deal with books proof-reading? 2017-10-05T14:51:17Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:53:48Z _ark_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:54:45Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:55:41Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T14:56:00Z beach: dim: Sure. 2017-10-05T14:56:09Z beach: dim: I do a lot myself. 2017-10-05T14:56:44Z beach: dim: Then I have my wife who has a PhD in English and who, at some point in her life, worked as a copy editor. So that helps. But she is often busy. 2017-10-05T14:57:06Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:57:14Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-05T14:57:19Z beach: dim: Then I have my favorite co-author who is French, but her English is quite good, and she catches many mistakes. 2017-10-05T14:57:47Z Achylles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T14:57:54Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-05T14:58:55Z beach: dim: flip214 is also a good proofreader. He has done several of my articles, for which he is included in the acknowledgments. But for an entire book, you probably need to pay him. 2017-10-05T15:01:46Z dim: thanks 2017-10-05T15:01:55Z beach: Not sure that was very helpful. 2017-10-05T15:02:03Z dim: so that's comparable to my current set-up, even tho I'm not as lucky as you are with people around me 2017-10-05T15:02:05Z beach: You do need someone who is not you. 2017-10-05T15:02:16Z dim: I'm doing the basics with Grammarly 2017-10-05T15:02:25Z beach: I see. 2017-10-05T15:02:47Z dim: then I have a good friend who's American so learnts proper grammar English at school there, and he's kind of annal about that, so that makes him a good reviewer ;-) 2017-10-05T15:02:54Z beach: I don't usually have problems with the grammar, but I sometimes make stupid mistakes of course. 2017-10-05T15:03:04Z dim: we all do, of course 2017-10-05T15:03:08Z beach: Yes, that's good. 2017-10-05T15:03:14Z dim: I'm discovering the punctuation rules, myself 2017-10-05T15:03:21Z dim: they are quite different in English 2017-10-05T15:03:26Z dim: Of course, you get used to them. 2017-10-05T15:03:30Z beach: They are, yes. 2017-10-05T15:03:32Z dim: (see that comma afeter of course?) 2017-10-05T15:03:58Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-05T15:04:03Z dim: Grammarly helps, even the free version of it 2017-10-05T15:04:20Z beach: Oh, I didn't realize there was a free version. 2017-10-05T15:04:28Z beach: Does it run on Linux? 2017-10-05T15:04:34Z dim: in a browser... 2017-10-05T15:04:40Z beach: Oh, I see. 2017-10-05T15:04:47Z dim: lots of copy/paste, I'm getting mad today 2017-10-05T15:05:23Z dim: e.g. “It appears that you have extra spaces surrounding the slash between the words key and value. Consider removing the extra spaces.” 2017-10-05T15:05:35Z Josh_2: I only found out yesterday that Grammarly uses CL. 2017-10-05T15:06:05Z heurist` joined #lisp 2017-10-05T15:06:06Z dim: do they? 2017-10-05T15:06:21Z beach: It is written in Common Lisp, or at least that is what I have heard. 2017-10-05T15:06:34Z Josh_2: https://tech.grammarly.com/blog/posts/Running-Lisp-in-Production.html 2017-10-05T15:06:45Z Josh_2: That was 2015, they could have changed ofcourse. 2017-10-05T15:06:48Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T15:07:52Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-05T15:08:47Z Josh_2: Clojure and CL which is nice 2017-10-05T15:08:47Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T15:16:40Z drwooly joined #lisp 2017-10-05T15:22:49Z drwooly quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-05T15:27:57Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-05T15:50:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-05T15:55:23Z emaczen: is there a library for streaming video? 2017-10-05T15:58:30Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:01:47Z pjb: emaczen: not in Common Lisp, not to do the streaming of the bits. 2017-10-05T16:03:09Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-05T16:03:11Z pjb: emaczen: however, RTSP is an ASCII based protocol similar to HTTP, so you could easily drive a video streamer using Common Lisp. 2017-10-05T16:03:39Z emaczen: pjb: I'll look into that. Would I then control it via Drakma? 2017-10-05T16:04:38Z pjb: For the most basic requests, IIRC, it should be possible. But if you want finer control, you will probably want to implement it yourself. 2017-10-05T16:05:23Z pjb: Also, that would depend on drakma, if it would accept the RTSP answers: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/images/chap3_0131014684/elementLinks/03fig08.gif 2017-10-05T16:06:34Z pjb: Yeah, probably forget drakma, it'll be simplier to implement RTSP directly. You could always use drakma as a model I guess. 2017-10-05T16:06:49Z emaczen: pjb: This is just the client-side right? 2017-10-05T16:07:30Z pjb: Yes. 2017-10-05T16:08:03Z pjb: The thing is that for the streaming part, you would rather want to implement that in C or C++; there are some real-time constraints, and you want to be efficient. 2017-10-05T16:08:13Z emaczen: I also need something to just start the stream 2017-10-05T16:08:25Z pjb: On the other hand, you may also stream directly from disk, where the file contains the pre-formated streams, so it may be feasible in CL. 2017-10-05T16:08:52Z emaczen: I'm just trying to capture a webcam feed 2017-10-05T16:08:54Z pjb: RTSP is the command language for a streamer. It's the <> buttons 2017-10-05T16:09:39Z pjb: Now, webcam are a different beast. If they're on the web, they often use page refresh. Not streaming, but posting jpeg static images. 2017-10-05T16:10:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:10:47Z emaczen: pjb: Can you point me somewhere for how I can get the the feed of a webcam on my local network? 2017-10-05T16:11:19Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:12:12Z emaczen: and then just display it via the HTML video tag? 2017-10-05T16:13:21Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T16:15:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:16:33Z pjb: emaczen: it really depends on your camera. Also you have to distinguish webcams from IP cams. webcams put on the network mere web pages, thru the http protocol: https://www.earthcam.com 2017-10-05T16:17:22Z pjb: webcams that want to do streaming to avoid the multiple http page reload, usually use a javascript applet to send the stream. I don't know what protocol they use, probably some custom protocol, I'd guess. 2017-10-05T16:17:47Z pjb: IP cams on the other hand would stream with standard IPTV formats, and have a RTSP server to get the commands. 2017-10-05T16:18:21Z pjb: So you should check the documentation of your webcam, and see what protocols it implements. 2017-10-05T16:18:21Z emaczen: usb webcam 2017-10-05T16:18:32Z emaczen: Ok I'll look into it 2017-10-05T16:18:47Z emaczen: I'm just having a hard time finding a starting point 2017-10-05T16:19:02Z |3b|: for usb you probably want to look into some video capture libs 2017-10-05T16:19:03Z pjb: Oh, if you mean you have a usb camera hooked on your computer and you want to send the images to the network, then you have to implement your own server. 2017-10-05T16:19:19Z pjb: Do you want to implement a webcam, or a video stream/ 2017-10-05T16:19:20Z pjb: ? 2017-10-05T16:20:20Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T16:20:38Z |3b|: yeah, better specification of what you want might get better advice :) 2017-10-05T16:21:43Z pjb: To capture the usb image, there are libraries on Linux. 2017-10-05T16:21:53Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:22:42Z pjb: v42l, libfg2, coriander, etc. 2017-10-05T16:23:00Z pjb: The question is to find the library that has the driver that works with your webcam… 2017-10-05T16:23:17Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video4Linux 2017-10-05T16:24:22Z pjb: Then you need to encode the pictures or video from the camera, and "forward it to the network". If you implement a web cam, you just need to take a snapshot at a low frequency (say 1 or 2 Hz), and to put a website (can be Hunchentoot), to publish a web page with a refresh at the same frequency. 2017-10-05T16:24:40Z emaczen: pjb: Thanks this seems to be what I want 2017-10-05T16:25:22Z pjb: And if you want to send a "real-time" video stream, then you need to encode the video (mpeg, h.262, etc) and stream it (better rely on C/C++ libraries), upon RTSP request you'd receive in your RTSP server (which can be implemented in CL without difficulties). 2017-10-05T16:26:02Z pjb: I assume you're on Linux, right? 2017-10-05T16:26:03Z pjb: https://linuxtv.org/downloads/v4l-dvb-apis/ 2017-10-05T16:28:29Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:31:27Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:34:07Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T16:38:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T16:39:04Z serviteu` joined #lisp 2017-10-05T16:40:56Z serviteur quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T16:45:21Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T16:50:54Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T16:55:52Z nika quit 2017-10-05T17:00:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T17:06:35Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:06:39Z SaganMan quit (Quit: laters) 2017-10-05T17:08:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T17:11:18Z serviteu` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T17:11:31Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:15:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:28:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:36:01Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:41:58Z sebastien_ quit (Quit: Reboot) 2017-10-05T17:42:10Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:43:20Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:43:41Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T17:44:00Z rumbler31: emaczen: for the web part, look into MJPEGStreamer, the html side can be as simple as an tag with a multipart response on the server side 2017-10-05T17:44:40Z rumbler31: how you access the feeds from the webcam itself depend on the webcam so you'll have to dig there 2017-10-05T17:45:08Z emaczen: I'm using a raspberrypi -- maybe I should just use picamer 2017-10-05T17:45:10Z emaczen: picamera 2017-10-05T17:45:24Z rumbler31: picam on python 2017-10-05T17:45:25Z rumbler31: er 2017-10-05T17:45:27Z rumbler31: ... 2017-10-05T17:45:30Z emaczen: I was going to use a webcam, but mabye it isn't even worth it 2017-10-05T17:45:41Z emaczen: I don't presently have a picam though... 2017-10-05T17:45:56Z rumbler31: well what was the... camera you were hoping to capture from 2017-10-05T17:46:01Z rumbler31: connected via usb to the pi? 2017-10-05T17:46:03Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T17:46:08Z emaczen: rumbler31: yes 2017-10-05T17:47:27Z rumbler31: raspicam is a package that should get you access to at least a picam, opencv may have built in support for enumerating usb cameras for capture 2017-10-05T17:47:56Z rumbler31: likely there is going to be some cffi work to get access to camera data into lisp, just like I'm pretty sure the python libraries do it 2017-10-05T17:48:36Z rumbler31: what is the ultimate goal? 2017-10-05T17:49:59Z emaczen: rumbler31: Right now, I have some code that will display the video feed from your webcam on your machine in the browser 2017-10-05T17:50:33Z emaczen: rumbler31: Shouldn't there, or is there some kind of way to just redirect this video on my local network? 2017-10-05T17:50:59Z rumbler31: the answer depends on how you expect your end users to consume it 2017-10-05T17:51:27Z rumbler31: if you want them to consume it in their browser, then it sounds like you don't need to do any more work if you're serving the camera data to the browser already 2017-10-05T17:51:45Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:52:14Z rumbler31: can you describe your existing implementation? 2017-10-05T17:52:51Z emaczen: rumbler31: I'm not actually serving any video (which is what I want to do). 2017-10-05T17:52:53Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-05T17:53:26Z emaczen: I pretty much just have a video tag with some record and save file controls 2017-10-05T17:53:48Z emaczen: I want to be able to serve the video feed though. 2017-10-05T17:53:58Z emaczen: If I start my program on localhost, then I can see the feed from my webcam 2017-10-05T17:54:02Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-05T17:54:33Z emaczen: If I grab my laptop and access the program running on my desktop, then it will just start a feed from the laptop (which makes sense) 2017-10-05T17:54:43Z emaczen: That's all I have at the moment 2017-10-05T17:57:07Z rumbler31: if you start your program and have it listen on an ip address that isn't localhost, say 0.0.0.0 (for all interfaces on your port of choice), then you should be able to point your browser on your laptop to your desktop IP and be served the same content, right? 2017-10-05T18:03:45Z dlowe: depends on the rest of your network, but normally yes. 2017-10-05T18:04:33Z dlowe: it's not unheard of to isolate clients 2017-10-05T18:04:47Z emaczen: rumbler31: I'm not actually serving the video, I just have a video tag, so it serves HTML which will call getUserMedia() or something like that and display a feed if you have a webcam plugged in. 2017-10-05T18:04:58Z rumbler31: without much else to go on, this topic breaks down to, "How do I access frames of data from the webcam" which depends on the camera, or your os's support for capturing images from it. after that, re-broadcasting is simply a matter of deciding how you want everyone else to consume the content. Chrome has native support for whats called the "never ending push" style http request, where a request for the content 2017-10-05T18:04:58Z rumbler31: s of an tag is fed a never ending multipart response consisting of each jpeg frame 2017-10-05T18:05:47Z rumbler31: emaczen: are you pointing your browser at the webcam? or at a program you wrote, or is the video tag served by the program you wrote directing the browser to the webcam? 2017-10-05T18:05:55Z nydel: i'm trying to get the results of (time (foo)) where the function (foo) plugs the buffer up really quickly... how do i do this, what am i missing? i try (setq x (time (foo))) but x becomes the results of foo.. the idea is that i can't see the time before the buffer is full of thousands of lines 2017-10-05T18:06:12Z nydel: any guidance appreciated, i think i'm missing a core concept 2017-10-05T18:06:31Z emaczen: rumbler31: Just a served HTML file that will get a video stream from your machine and display it in the browser 2017-10-05T18:06:54Z emaczen: I need to serve the encoded video 2017-10-05T18:06:55Z rumbler31: nydel: are you getting any output at all? time probably side-effects by writing to stdio while returning the result of the inner form 2017-10-05T18:08:11Z rumbler31: so you're saying that you don't have code or process that is currently consuming the webcam, you just built a web page with video controls? 2017-10-05T18:08:14Z nydel: rumbler31: the time output does happen but the function is reading from a type of file. i'm trying to see how quickly, and the side-effects are so quickly to-screen that i can't see the time output by the time the buffer is full of the reading data 2017-10-05T18:08:48Z nydel: e.g. (time (print 'foo)) does just the same but i can see the time because it doesn't exceed the length of my terminal (by thousands of lines) 2017-10-05T18:09:03Z rumbler31: nydel: I think time might write to trace-output, you can temporarily, or permanently redirect that output to a file 2017-10-05T18:09:15Z rumbler31: iirc 2017-10-05T18:09:51Z nydel: thanks rumbler31 i'll try just that 2017-10-05T18:09:53Z rumbler31: you will probably be able to google how to redirect trace-output faster than I can paste a code example but that should do it 2017-10-05T18:10:14Z nydel: yeah i already found a page with instructions, just didn't know what i was looking for. this will do it, thank you! 2017-10-05T18:10:22Z |3b|: clhs time 2017-10-05T18:10:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm 2017-10-05T18:10:34Z rumbler31: nydel: yw. iirc I just added code to do that so if you get stuck let me know and I'll fish out an example 2017-10-05T18:11:54Z |3b|: (with-output-to-string (*trace-output*) (time ...)) will return a string of whatever time printed 2017-10-05T18:12:12Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T18:12:58Z |3b|: (and anything else that was printed to *trace-output* by ..., if that is a problem, maybe add a (let ((*trace-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) ) around ...) 2017-10-05T18:16:14Z nydel: just that exactly works |3b| -- i am needing to understand how exactly *trace-output* works. i understand it's a dynamic variable -- looks weird to me in that form -- into the textbooks i go! 2017-10-05T18:16:26Z nydel: thanks everyone i appreciate it 2017-10-05T18:18:42Z |3b|: with-output-to-string (x) probably expands to something like (let ((x (make-string-output-stream))) ...) if that helps make the binding clearer 2017-10-05T18:20:22Z pjb: (macroexpand-1 '(with-output-to-string (x) (foo x))) #| --> (let* ((x (make-string-output-stream))) (unwind-protect (progn (foo x) (get-output-stream-string x)) (close x))) ; t |# 2017-10-05T18:20:46Z pjb: #+ccl, of course, macro expansions are implementation dependent. 2017-10-05T18:22:02Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T18:25:09Z |3b|: sbcl puts the g-o-s-s form at the end but is otherwise similar 2017-10-05T18:25:18Z |3b|: clhs with-output-to-string 2017-10-05T18:25:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 2017-10-05T18:27:14Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-05T18:27:21Z |3b| can't decide if that is a user-visible difference or not, probably not 2017-10-05T18:29:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T18:33:37Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T18:40:43Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T18:42:53Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-05T18:43:46Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T18:44:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-05T18:45:37Z fraya joined #lisp 2017-10-05T18:46:00Z pjb: clhs get-output-stream-string 2017-10-05T18:46:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_ou.htm 2017-10-05T18:46:30Z pjb: portably, "The consequences are undefined if stream-output-string is closed." 2017-10-05T18:47:15Z pjb: but the sbcl implementation may define that you can get the output stream string after a close, and therefore call it after. It only means that the macro expansion in sbcl of with-output-to-string is sbcl specific. 2017-10-05T18:48:07Z pjb: Of course, most CL macros if not all, can have a conforming implementation. When you implement a code walker, it may even be a good idea to provide a conforming implementatin of all the CL macros, instead of relying on the implementation… 2017-10-05T18:48:37Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T18:48:43Z pjb: well, I say code walker, I mean, some tool that needs to analyse CL sources… 2017-10-05T18:52:48Z dyelar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T18:53:23Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-05T18:54:49Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T18:56:56Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-05T18:58:07Z |3b|: pjb: i meant whether returning the string inside the uwp body our outside the uwp mattered (aside from the macroexpansion) 2017-10-05T18:58:12Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T18:58:22Z |3b|: it still closes in the uwp cleanup as specified by spec 2017-10-05T18:58:37Z |3b|: ah, nevermind, misread 2017-10-05T18:58:49Z pjb: Yes, there are not 36 ways to do it. 2017-10-05T18:59:59Z pjb: Well, in general, CL macros can be implemented as special operators, or may expand to expressions resolving eventually to special operators and/or function calls. 2017-10-05T19:00:18Z pjb: Function calls pose no problem. If the special operators are the standard special operators, then no problem. 2017-10-05T19:00:45Z pjb: The problem occurs when the implementation has implementation specific special operators and uses them in the standard macro expansions. 2017-10-05T19:01:04Z pjb: In that case, it's not possible to write a portable code walker. 2017-10-05T19:02:34Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:03:24Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:03:32Z pjb: But AFAIK, you can provide a "compilation-time" expansion for all the standard macro; that is, to perform compilation time processing of the sources, what you need to know is what is data (variables, bindings) and what is code. So all macros can expand basically to something like (let (x y z …) (f% x y z … (lambda () …) …)) 2017-10-05T19:03:58Z pjb: you don't need to know the f%; the variables and the lambdas are specified by clhs. 2017-10-05T19:05:06Z pjb: and of course, (when I looked about it), the only implementation with an implementation specific special operator was sbcl… 2017-10-05T19:07:31Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-05T19:07:35Z fraya left #lisp 2017-10-05T19:08:04Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:11:39Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-10-05T19:15:47Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-05T19:18:04Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T19:23:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T19:23:11Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:34:01Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:35:24Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T19:36:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:38:50Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:43:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-05T19:52:15Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T20:00:44Z shenghi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-05T20:02:03Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T20:07:44Z shenghi joined #lisp 2017-10-05T20:09:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-05T20:12:49Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T20:13:32Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-05T20:16:58Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-10-05T20:17:08Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-05T20:22:05Z zachk joined #lisp 2017-10-05T20:22:41Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-05T20:27:06Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2017-10-05T20:27:13Z Bike: hello, slime question i may have to take to a mailing list: swank:autodoc says it returns a two-element list, but sets up a handler that returns only a string if there's an error. slime-autodoc--async doesn't seem to like that. is there some way errors could be dealt with better? 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2017-10-05T22:04:53Z fortitude: I have a curious case where a server accepts a connection, sends data, and reads data; and a test client that connects, sends, and closes immediately 2017-10-05T22:04:53Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T22:04:55Z fe[nl]ix: no, you have to close the socket 2017-10-05T22:05:08Z fortitude: READ-SEQUENCE is returning EOF without reading any data in the server 2017-10-05T22:05:32Z fortitude: even though if I do a READ-BYTE directly, it will return the client's data 2017-10-05T22:05:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:06:29Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:07:27Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T22:09:01Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:09:21Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:10:09Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T22:14:38Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:18:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T22:25:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T22:29:03Z nicklaf joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:29:38Z fortitude: turns out the trick is doing a write beforehand; looks like this is either a usocket bug, or an I/O bug in both sbcl and ccl 2017-10-05T22:30:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:34:00Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:35:48Z phoe: fortitude: can you prepare a small test case? 2017-10-05T22:36:09Z phoe: once we have something that we can copypaste into REPL to trigger that behaviour, we can try tracking it down and fixing 2017-10-05T22:37:53Z fortitude: phoe: I created an issue on usocket's github repo with test code 2017-10-05T22:38:18Z fortitude: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/issues/31 2017-10-05T22:39:05Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T22:39:14Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:40:09Z fortitude: ...except that apparently I used the wrong arg for MAKE-SEQUENCE 2017-10-05T22:40:25Z phoe: fortitude: I need to sleep now; I will perhaps verify this tomorrow on linux 2017-10-05T22:40:36Z phoe: or maybe someone else from #lisp can do it 2017-10-05T22:40:44Z phoe: for now, good night #parens 2017-10-05T22:42:19Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:42:56Z phoe_ joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:44:00Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-05T22:49:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-05T22:49:32Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T22:52:43Z pmetzger quit 2017-10-05T22:56:22Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-05T22:56:33Z nicklaf quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T22:57:14Z nicklaf joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:57:49Z stapler joined #lisp 2017-10-05T22:58:09Z stapler: hi all, what's the preferred way of doing non-portable/os specific functions? 2017-10-05T23:05:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-05T23:05:58Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:07:02Z edgar-rft: stapler, see 2017-10-05T23:08:03Z edgar-rft: either use quicklisp, or if not the code is here: 2017-10-05T23:08:13Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-05T23:08:41Z stapler: i see. is there any good quick reference of best practices? i just want to jump into writing something 2017-10-05T23:09:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:09:46Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:13:06Z pillton: stapler: This might help. http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/features.pdf 2017-10-05T23:14:01Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-05T23:15:08Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T23:20:31Z iqubic quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-05T23:26:03Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:26:51Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-05T23:26:57Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-05T23:27:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-05T23:28:09Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-05T23:28:30Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:28:44Z earl-ducaine: stapler: To some extend it depends on what you want to do. cffi allows you interact with many c/c++ libraries and write you're own wrappers of OS specific Features in C. 2017-10-05T23:29:53Z stapler: earl-ducaine, indeed the ffi is quite nice 2017-10-05T23:29:56Z stapler: (alien-funcall (extern-alien "SetCursorPos" (function boolean int int)) 10 10) 2017-10-05T23:30:05Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-05T23:30:26Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:31:15Z earl-ducaine: CFFI does have some limitation in terms of capabilities, those can often be overcome by using ECL (rather than SBCL, CCL, etc) 2017-10-05T23:31:50Z earl-ducaine: ECL is a full ansi complient embeddable CL. 2017-10-05T23:32:37Z stapler: any examples of these limitations? 2017-10-05T23:32:51Z earl-ducaine: One way of thinking about it is that CFFI allows you call 'out' of Lisp. ECL allows you to call 'into' a CL 2017-10-05T23:33:51Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:34:03Z earl-ducaine: So, if your application needs to start up in a certain way and especially if it generates and handles signals SBCL can be difficult to accomodate. 2017-10-05T23:34:34Z earl-ducaine: ECL allows you to specific what symbols it uses for its own management. 2017-10-05T23:35:43Z stapler: earl-ducaine, oh so you just mean that I can't really embed sbcl/ccl/etc 2017-10-05T23:35:45Z stapler: that's fine i guess 2017-10-05T23:35:48Z stapler: i'm mostly calling out 2017-10-05T23:36:37Z earl-ducaine: Correct, you need to start up 'into Lisp' first and then you can make CFFI calls. 2017-10-05T23:37:45Z stapler: is a & before &key in arguments for example just a convention? 2017-10-05T23:37:47Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:38:03Z stapler: i should probably take this to #clnoob, heh 2017-10-05T23:39:25Z earl-ducaine: Lots of C/C++ libraries are written with the express intension of being used in a dynamic context and therefor have fascilities to configure it to 'play nice' with languages like Python, Lisp, Node, etc. 2017-10-05T23:40:03Z earl-ducaine: So, you'll find you can go a long way with CFFI before you need to use an embeddable Lisp. 2017-10-05T23:40:10Z zachk quit (Quit: night) 2017-10-05T23:40:18Z anunnaki quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-05T23:40:39Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:40:43Z nicklaf quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-05T23:42:39Z nicklaf joined #lisp 2017-10-05T23:46:30Z earl-ducaine: :zlib is a quickloadable library that is an example of how to write CFFI code. And CFFI itself has some example code in its repo. 2017-10-05T23:47:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-05T23:49:27Z stapler: and how will i know when i need to write a macro? will i just feel it? 2017-10-05T23:49:38Z stapler: sorry, again, very noobish with lisp but i can see its power 2017-10-05T23:49:41Z stapler: just not how to interact with it, heh 2017-10-05T23:50:36Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-05T23:53:22Z earl-ducaine: stapler: there's a wide spectum of opinions on that. Some people would say practically never (or in fact never) others would say that you can't understand and use lisp properly without writting them. 2017-10-05T23:54:24Z earl-ducaine: a middle ground *might* be that you should think of macros as writing your own mini language. So, when ever you need that much power. 2017-10-05T23:54:47Z earl-ducaine: Though I'm not 100% sure that actually says anything useful. 2017-10-05T23:56:00Z earl-ducaine: For myself I fell in love with CL once I understood how macros work. But, I seldom use them myself. 2017-10-05T23:58:43Z aeth: Imo, macros should mostly be used when they fit clear patterns. Usually that's do-foo, with-foo, define-foo. 2017-10-05T23:59:19Z aeth: They also have a use when you really need to set something, like incf. But, fortunately, in that special case there is iirc a define-modify-macro, which makes such macros trivial to write. 2017-10-06T00:00:28Z aeth: But for the most part, unless you're really doing fancy things, you don't need to make your own macros. 2017-10-06T00:00:53Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:01:01Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:01:34Z aeth: Fancy things can include a macro that e.g. generates shaders. Several people generate GLSL shaders using different approaches. I'm sure SQL is the same way. Or HTML. Or any other time you're forced to use a language and you'd rather use s-expressions instead. Usually the libraries are already written, though. 2017-10-06T00:01:54Z fortitude joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:01:54Z stapler: i see 2017-10-06T00:02:17Z stapler: lets say im going to write a bunch of functions that will have a case to switch on operating systems 2017-10-06T00:02:22Z stapler: is this worthy of being promoted into a macro? 2017-10-06T00:03:30Z daemoz quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-06T00:06:48Z Kristof_HT joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:09:11Z aeth: I've been tempted to write my own case macros before, but I'm not sure I'd do that when there are essentially just three options (if I'm understanding your question correctly). 2017-10-06T00:10:21Z clintm: Are the -async features of slime something I need to turn on, or does it detect a threading lisp and just do the right thing? 2017-10-06T00:10:41Z clintm: Looking through the docs, but I'm not seeing much. 2017-10-06T00:13:19Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-06T00:15:17Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:15:38Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T00:15:38Z Bike: clintm: there's a variable you can set to change it. default should be multithreaded async stuff on most lisps, though 2017-10-06T00:15:54Z clintm: ok, thanks! 2017-10-06T00:16:26Z Bike: clintm: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Communication-style.html#Communication-style 2017-10-06T00:17:16Z earl-ducaine: stapler: Typically that wouldn't be something you'd use macros for. The feature variable tends to be the conventional appoarch 2017-10-06T00:17:17Z earl-ducaine: https://gist.github.com/4dbf9383ed485d44893dd5b43cef1b6d 2017-10-06T00:18:34Z earl-ducaine: Trivial Features provides a somewhat standardized and consistent framework for detecting commonly used configurations: https://github.com/trivial-features/trivial-features/blob/master/SPEC.md 2017-10-06T00:19:02Z earl-ducaine: ^ code snippet was from ccl. 2017-10-06T00:22:38Z babalua quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T00:23:21Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:24:01Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-06T00:25:05Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:25:58Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:26:29Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:28:55Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:30:55Z grublet quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T00:31:13Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:31:32Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T00:32:26Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:33:50Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:36:08Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T00:37:58Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2017-10-06T00:55:29Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T00:55:30Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T00:55:42Z lambdice: this is a macro cause i am still trying to understand how macro works.. just testing things 2017-10-06T00:56:05Z lambdice: so i should use ,@,address? 2017-10-06T00:56:20Z lambdice: ,@,lst i mean 2017-10-06T00:56:48Z lambdice: nope that doesnt works ofc 2017-10-06T00:57:21Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T00:57:41Z fortitude: lambdice: you probably want to figure out what the macro should expand into first, and then write the macro to actually do the expansion 2017-10-06T00:57:59Z Bicyclidine: lambdice: if you want to evaluate the symbol, and get the actual value, you'd have to do that explicitly, with eval. 2017-10-06T00:58:06Z Bicyclidine: this is almost always a bad idea 2017-10-06T00:58:23Z Bicyclidine: now, what you can do is skip the macro, and just write `(,name ,@address) 2017-10-06T00:58:30Z lambdice: so i dont undestand how ,@ works then 2017-10-06T00:58:36Z Bicyclidine: it splices 2017-10-06T00:58:52Z Bicyclidine: `(list ,name ,@address) is shorthand for (append '(list) (list name) address) 2017-10-06T00:59:10Z Bicyclidine: (more or less) 2017-10-06T01:00:24Z lambdice: ok i got and understand if i type it directly in the repl 2017-10-06T01:00:49Z lambdice: but inside a macro how ,@lst expand? 2017-10-06T01:00:57Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:01:03Z lambdice: the expandmacro-l is pretty strange for me lol 2017-10-06T01:01:14Z Bicyclidine: macros are unrelated 2017-10-06T01:01:39Z Bicyclidine: backquoting is just a thing that's used commonly in macros. it's not tied to macros in any way 2017-10-06T01:01:57Z lambdice: ok 2017-10-06T01:03:24Z Bicyclidine: what you might not expand is what a macro function receives as arguments 2017-10-06T01:03:55Z Bicyclidine: when you have (defmacro test (one two) ...), when you write (test foo bar), the macro function receives teh /symbols/ FOO and BAR as arguments 2017-10-06T01:03:59Z Bicyclidine: not their values or anything 2017-10-06T01:04:07Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T01:05:50Z lambdice: ok i understand so far 2017-10-06T01:06:16Z Bicyclidine: i mean, that's basically it. 2017-10-06T01:06:30Z Bicyclidine: for your test macro, you seemed to assume that the /values/ of name and address would be involved somehow. 2017-10-06T01:06:31Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-06T01:06:48Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T01:07:04Z lambdice: Bicyclidine: indeed and it is wrong 2017-10-06T01:07:11Z marvin2 quit 2017-10-06T01:10:49Z lambdice: but i am curious to know how i could get the result (sherlock 221B baker street) if i want to use a macro 2017-10-06T01:11:29Z Bicyclidine: you'd have to use symbol-value or eval. 2017-10-06T01:12:00Z Bicyclidine: like (defmacro test (n lst) `(list ,(symbol-value n) ,@(symbol-value lst))) which is not really how macros ought to work. 2017-10-06T01:12:28Z Bicyclidine: because at that point you're no longer operating on the actual source text, which is the entire raison d'etre of macros. 2017-10-06T01:12:53Z lambdice: "raison d'etre" :) 2017-10-06T01:12:55Z lambdice: indeed 2017-10-06T01:13:12Z Bicyclidine: my keyboard doesn't have diacritics, and i don't have spelling 2017-10-06T01:13:21Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T01:13:22Z Bicyclidine: you could more easily write (defun test (n lst) `(,n ,@lst)) and then (test name address) => (SHERLOCK |221B| BAKER STREET) indeed 2017-10-06T01:15:07Z lambdice: Bicyclidine: so it is non sense to use ",@" on macro parameters? 2017-10-06T01:15:25Z lambdice: cause as you said macros receive symbols 2017-10-06T01:15:51Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:16:04Z fortitude: lambdice: sometimes macros receive lists, too (&rest and &body parameters are the most common ones) 2017-10-06T01:16:07Z lambdice: well unless the macro parameter is litteraly a list maybe 2017-10-06T01:16:18Z fortitude: lambdice: and even for regular parameters, the macro might test whether it's a list or not 2017-10-06T01:16:18Z lambdice: fortitude: indeed! 2017-10-06T01:16:23Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:18:45Z lambdice: so if i am right, everything after a ,@ is 1) evaluated and the result has to be a lise and 2) spliced into the bacquoted expression 2017-10-06T01:19:03Z Bicyclidine: well "evaluated" is tricky here 2017-10-06T01:19:16Z Bicyclidine: this is why i explained it in terms of append 2017-10-06T01:19:27Z Bicyclidine: `(,@foo ,@bar) is just (append foo bar) 2017-10-06T01:19:44Z Bicyclidine: foo and bar are "evaluated" in the sense of a normal evaluation, but not "evaluated" in that you're going to get a symbol-value or nothin 2017-10-06T01:20:40Z fortitude: it's technically accurate to say that's it's evaluated; the tricky bit is what gets passed to the macro in the first place 2017-10-06T01:20:47Z lambdice: Bicyclidine: so tricky indeed 2017-10-06T01:20:59Z fortitude: (namely the results of READ, not (EVAL (READ)) like with regular functions) 2017-10-06T01:22:29Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:22:39Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:22:41Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:23:27Z lambdice: thx a lot for all this explanation 2017-10-06T01:23:43Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-06T01:24:17Z fortitude: I don't want to make things worse by explaining too much, but I find it helps to remember how the REP part of a REPL works 2017-10-06T01:24:34Z nydel: |3b|: i did a lot of reading an experimenting around that *trace-output* and make-string-output-stream & a bunch of things that enhanced my understanding of lisp buffers, thanks for always sharing good info to dig into & with kindnes to people who aren't all-knowins lispers yet - appreciated much 2017-10-06T01:27:01Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T01:27:17Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:28:50Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:28:58Z yottabyte quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-06T01:30:22Z pmetzger quit 2017-10-06T01:36:59Z clintm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T01:37:26Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:37:49Z clintm is now known as Guest96442 2017-10-06T01:38:27Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:48:22Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-06T01:49:10Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T01:57:09Z pyx joined #lisp 2017-10-06T01:58:32Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T01:58:46Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T03:01:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-06T03:01:34Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T03:06:13Z nydel: morning beach 2017-10-06T03:12:46Z manny8888 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T03:12:59Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T03:14:05Z deba5e12_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T03:15:23Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-06T03:15:29Z stapler: q: everything in a lisp file is executed when loaded (with asdf in particular but i think its like that in particular?) 2017-10-06T03:16:52Z beach: stapler: That's not quite true. 2017-10-06T03:17:35Z beach: stapler: Most of the time top-level forms are evaluated at load-time, if that is what you mean. 2017-10-06T03:17:46Z beach: stapler: I suggest you ask a more precise question. 2017-10-06T03:19:35Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-06T03:19:43Z stapler: ex i want to evaluate some expressions when someone loads the system 2017-10-06T03:20:36Z beach: Making it a top-level form should work. 2017-10-06T03:21:15Z stapler: alright, thanks 2017-10-06T03:23:13Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-06T03:25:14Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-06T03:26:29Z manny8888 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T03:26:33Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T03:27:16Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-06T03:28:53Z beach: stapler: Also, ASDF does things that are more complicated than loading the files. It checks dependencies and compiles and loads files in a particular order, or not at all if it turns out not to be necessary. 2017-10-06T03:29:15Z beach: In other words, you can't count on ASDF to always load your files. 2017-10-06T03:34:24Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-06T03:34:52Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T03:44:36Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-06T03:51:08Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T03:53:26Z pillton: You can do (asdf:load-system "blah" :force t). 2017-10-06T03:53:43Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-06T03:54:10Z beach: Yes, of course. 2017-10-06T03:56:28Z pillton: Or (asdf:load-system "blah" :force :all) to (re)load everything. 2017-10-06T03:59:49Z beach: We have been given too little information about the use case to know what is really practical in this situation. 2017-10-06T04:01:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T04:05:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T04:06:17Z p_l joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:06:29Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:07:26Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:07:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:09:24Z clog joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:09:43Z pillton: Sure. I was just showing how you tell ASDF to always load your files. 2017-10-06T04:09:52Z beach: Right. 2017-10-06T04:10:25Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:12:07Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-06T04:12:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:13:28Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:14:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T04:15:51Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:16:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:17:38Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:17:55Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T04:19:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T04:23:26Z stapler: is using progn bad/unlisplike? 2017-10-06T04:23:37Z jmercouris: stapler: not necessarily, it can be very useful 2017-10-06T04:23:54Z jmercouris: in places where there is only one form, but if you abuse it for example, in place of a "when" inside of an if body, then yes 2017-10-06T04:24:39Z stapler: what do you mean by "one form?" 2017-10-06T04:24:50Z jmercouris: hey everyone, I'm trying to remove an element from my list: https://gist.github.com/89d8bdf87b833a6d4e79a14f3d3f5e54 unfortunately, it is not removed even though the remove command should remove it, any ideas why that is? 2017-10-06T04:25:29Z beach: stapler: For example, the IF special operator takes a single form for the THEN branch and a single form for the ELSE branch. 2017-10-06T04:25:41Z beach: stapler: So if you need more than one form there, you use a PROGN. 2017-10-06T04:25:42Z jmercouris: stapler: I mean for example if you look at the clhs for "if" http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/s_if.htm 2017-10-06T04:26:13Z jmercouris: I know in other languages, it is bad to remove an element from a list during iteration, is the same true in lisp? 2017-10-06T04:26:15Z beach: stapler: Why did you think PROGN might be bad? 2017-10-06T04:26:25Z stapler: beach, it seems very unfunctional 2017-10-06T04:26:38Z jmercouris: it's a common fallacy that lisp is a functional language 2017-10-06T04:27:02Z beach: stapler: Yes, but Common Lisp is not a particularly functional language in that sense. 2017-10-06T04:27:12Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:27:14Z beach: jmercouris: You are not allowed to modify the list you are iterating over. 2017-10-06T04:27:34Z jmercouris: beach: so how do I get around this limitation in this case? 2017-10-06T04:27:37Z jmercouris: stapler: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html 2017-10-06T04:27:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:27:40Z beach: clhs 3.6 2017-10-06T04:27:40Z specbot: Traversal Rules and Side Effects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm 2017-10-06T04:28:02Z beach: jmercouris: Now you are asking me to understand what you want to do. That's a lot more work. 2017-10-06T04:28:11Z jmercouris: beach: right, that makes sense, it's true in other langsa as well 2017-10-06T04:28:16Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T04:28:24Z jmercouris: beach: I explain it very briefly, and if you don't feel like thinking about it, is okay :D 2017-10-06T04:28:48Z jmercouris: beach: I am simply trying to iterate through a list of buffers, find one with a matching name, and then remove it from the list of buffers 2017-10-06T04:28:50Z beach: jmercouris: You might use for x = then (cdr x) instead. 2017-10-06T04:29:12Z beach: jmercouris: You can use remove-if instead. 2017-10-06T04:29:34Z beach: Or just REMOVE. 2017-10-06T04:30:11Z beach: You can give a KEY and a TEST to REMOVE. 2017-10-06T04:30:42Z jmercouris: within the test, how do I refer to the element I'm testing? 2017-10-06T04:30:43Z beach: (remove input *buffers* :key #'name :test #'equalp) 2017-10-06T04:31:26Z beach: clhs remove 2017-10-06T04:31:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 2017-10-06T04:31:35Z jmercouris: I'm already looking at that :\ 2017-10-06T04:33:10Z beach: Notice that REMOVE doesn't alter the list. 2017-10-06T04:33:25Z beach: So you have to set the special variable to the result of the call. 2017-10-06T04:33:42Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:33:56Z beach: You can use DELETE instead, but you still have to set the variable to the result of the call. 2017-10-06T04:33:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:34:04Z jmercouris: I think i'm better off doing a find, and then a delete on a separate line 2017-10-06T04:34:08Z jmercouris: because I need to do some other operations as well 2017-10-06T04:34:24Z jmercouris: thank you for your help 2017-10-06T04:34:27Z stapler: https://hastebin.com/jubaqoguko.lisp is this alright? 2017-10-06T04:34:33Z beach: jmercouris: Sure. 2017-10-06T04:34:59Z stapler: not sure why its indented so far in in the paste 2017-10-06T04:35:00Z beach: stapler: When you present code for others to read, make sure it is indented correctly. 2017-10-06T04:35:10Z jmercouris: stapler: you can use paste.lisp.org 2017-10-06T04:35:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T04:35:50Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:36:12Z beach: stapler: Also, COND has an implicit PROGN in each clause, so you don't need an explicit one right there. 2017-10-06T04:36:22Z stapler: beach, ah, today I learned 2017-10-06T04:36:26Z stapler: I should probably RTFM 2017-10-06T04:36:32Z beach: stapler: What is left-down, left-up, right-down, and right-up? 2017-10-06T04:36:41Z stapler: win32 api constants 2017-10-06T04:36:52Z beach: Oh dear. 2017-10-06T04:37:04Z stapler: heh 2017-10-06T04:37:44Z stapler: perhaps should wrap them in * and do defparameter? 2017-10-06T04:38:50Z beach: I am afraid I have no advice to give in this situation. 2017-10-06T04:39:18Z stapler_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:39:20Z stapler quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-10-06T04:39:21Z stapler_ is now known as stapler 2017-10-06T04:39:24Z stapler quit (Changing host) 2017-10-06T04:39:24Z stapler joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:42:23Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-06T04:42:44Z stapler: yikes just realized i forgot to wrap one of the conditions 2017-10-06T04:42:47Z stapler: im a mess 2017-10-06T04:42:58Z stapler: either way I'm enjoying toying around with this 2017-10-06T04:44:25Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:44:48Z jmercouris: stapler: that's good! 2017-10-06T04:50:18Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:50:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:52:57Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-06T04:53:28Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:53:46Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T04:55:49Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T04:56:43Z beach: stapler: It is easy to detect problems like that (forgetting a pair of parentheses) if the code is correctly indented. 2017-10-06T05:00:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T05:10:07Z jasom: stapler: which editor are you using? I can help you get it setup to indent lisp properly perhaps? 2017-10-06T05:10:30Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-06T05:10:36Z stapler: aha, i really should be at least using atom with atom-slime 2017-10-06T05:10:47Z stapler: but vs code with parinfer 2017-10-06T05:11:25Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-06T05:11:36Z stapler: should probably use spaces over tabs 2017-10-06T05:12:00Z jasom: hmm, I'm not seeing any way to do pluggable indenting with vs code... if you know of one, there is a javascript program for indenting lisp code... 2017-10-06T05:12:06Z beach: stapler: The point is that you should not indent your code manually. 2017-10-06T05:12:23Z beach: stapler: You should use an editor that indents correctly for you. 2017-10-06T05:12:27Z Guest8081 quit (Changing host) 2017-10-06T05:12:27Z Guest8081 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:12:38Z stapler: parinfer does that 2017-10-06T05:12:40Z Guest8081 is now known as mrSpec 2017-10-06T05:12:43Z stapler: i've to learn to use it correctly however 2017-10-06T05:12:53Z stapler: https://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/ 2017-10-06T05:12:57Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-06T05:14:26Z beach: stapler: The recommended way is to use SLIME with the slime-indentation contribution. There are many other reasons to use SLIME as well, of course. 2017-10-06T05:15:20Z jasom: stapler: parinfer is the opposite; it adjusts your parens to match your indentation 2017-10-06T05:16:19Z jasom: https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_14#_auto-indent-on-type-move-lines-and-paste <-- here's the customization of VS code indentation; it looks insufficient for properly indenting lisp (even with a static list of special forms and macros) 2017-10-06T05:17:20Z stapler: i will take a look later 2017-10-06T05:17:23Z jmercouris: stapler: I might suggest you give emacs a try :P 2017-10-06T05:17:23Z stapler: for now i am going to sleep 2017-10-06T05:17:38Z stapler: jmercouris, ..not my cup of tea but i may have to learn to love it i suppose 2017-10-06T05:17:51Z jasom: stapler: if you do try emacs, I strongly recommend going with portacle; it's already setup with sbcl and quicklisp 2017-10-06T05:17:59Z jasom: minion: tell stapler about portacle 2017-10-06T05:17:59Z minion: stapler: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ 2017-10-06T05:18:07Z jmercouris quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T05:20:06Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-06T05:22:11Z stapler: perhaps i should try to learn it again 2017-10-06T05:23:08Z Kristof_HT quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-06T05:23:40Z beach: stapler: I personally think you should. You see, the problem is that Emacs with SLIME and slime-indentation is pretty much the only setup that allows you to indent almost all Common Lisp programs correctly... 2017-10-06T05:24:23Z beach: stapler: ... and if you use something else, you will then almost certainly submit code for others to read that is incorrectly indented, and that is not very polite. 2017-10-06T05:25:31Z beach: stapler: Not to mention the time you waste, both for those other people and for yourself by trying to find defects in your code that could have been easily spotted with correct indentation. 2017-10-06T05:27:23Z beach: stapler: Plus, SLIME allows you to save a lot of time in other ways, by letting you examine backtraces, inspect objects, find source locations of errors, etc. 2017-10-06T05:28:05Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-06T05:28:05Z stapler: lesson learned 2017-10-06T05:31:54Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:33:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:36:16Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:41:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:43:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T05:45:36Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T05:45:49Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T05:45:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:46:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:46:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:48:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T05:49:21Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:52:43Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:53:18Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:57:02Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T05:58:32Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:58:57Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T05:59:20Z phoe_ left #lisp 2017-10-06T06:01:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:01:22Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:01:32Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:02:34Z phoe_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:02:35Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T06:02:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:03:54Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:05:01Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:05:51Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:11:10Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:12:20Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T06:16:35Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T06:16:35Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:17:09Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T06:17:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:18:02Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:18:50Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:19:49Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:27:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T06:30:30Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:30:31Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T06:35:58Z phoe quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-06T06:38:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:38:14Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:38:25Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:44:05Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T06:44:12Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T06:45:22Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:48:35Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T06:48:52Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-06T06:50:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T06:55:18Z Guest21598 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-06T06:56:19Z beach: In Cleavir, when I convert a form (in fact it is not a form, but a concrete syntax tree representing a form), if it is a special form and perhaps even if it is a macro call to a standard macro, I would like to check the syntax first. Also, I would like to have a general restart RECOVER that tries to patch incorrect forms so that conversion can continue as much as possible. 2017-10-06T06:56:20Z beach: What would be a good way to organize this recovery so as to avoid code duplication? Perhaps I should have an :AROUND method on the conversion function that checks the syntax. The syntax checker can then return a patched form so that the :AROUND method calls the converter with the patched form if necessary. Does that sound reasonable? 2017-10-06T06:57:52Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T06:58:25Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:00:06Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:00:29Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:02:14Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:03:36Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:03:51Z giraffe is now known as Guest43993 2017-10-06T07:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T07:05:00Z Shinmera: That minion message about Portacle has an outdated link. It's now https://portacle.github.io 2017-10-06T07:06:29Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:07:32Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:11:08Z sarkic quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-06T07:12:03Z sarkic joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:12:18Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:13:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T07:18:00Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-06T07:20:03Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T07:20:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:20:20Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:21:18Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T07:21:35Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:23:34Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:27:16Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:28:14Z hooman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T07:29:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T07:34:35Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:34:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:38:40Z hajovonta: good morning! 2017-10-06T07:39:58Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:43:29Z pjb: beach: :around may be a problem in your case, if you want to change what is compiled, since clhs call-next-method says you cannot change the applicable methods. 2017-10-06T07:43:32Z pjb: "When providing arguments to call-next-method, the following rule must be satisfied or an error of type error should be signaled: the ordered set of applicable methods for a changed set of arguments for call-next-method must be the same as the ordered set of applicable methods for the original arguments to the generic function. Optimizations of the error checking are possible, but they must not change the semantics of call-next-me 2017-10-06T07:44:01Z pjb: So depending on what you want to do to correct the errors, it may be better to find a different mechanism (or use optional parameters). 2017-10-06T07:45:31Z juki joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:47:18Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T07:47:52Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T07:47:53Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:49:02Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T07:49:29Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-06T07:56:45Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-06T07:57:28Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T07:57:48Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:02:13Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:04:50Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:05:11Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:15:18Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T08:18:41Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-06T08:19:47Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:32:48Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:33:40Z beach: pjb: That might indeed be a consideration. Thanks. 2017-10-06T08:34:35Z beach: I'll just make it two functions. 2017-10-06T08:34:51Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T08:43:11Z beach: Either way, I will need a function that takes a CST representing a formm, that checks its syntax, signals an error if it is wrong, proposes a restart to fix it, and finally returns either the original CST or a fixed one. 2017-10-06T08:52:43Z Guest96442 is now known as clintm 2017-10-06T08:52:52Z clintm quit (Changing host) 2017-10-06T08:52:52Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:56:00Z emaczen`` joined #lisp 2017-10-06T08:58:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-06T08:59:38Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-06T09:01:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:02:02Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T09:02:07Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:05:16Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T09:10:05Z beach: Or how about this: I have an :AROUND method on the conversion function. It calls the syntax checker. If the syntax checker returns something EQ to its argument, the :AROUND method does (CALL-NEXT-METHOD). If not, it calls the conversion function recursively and never calls the next method. 2017-10-06T09:10:15Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:11:08Z beach: With this organization I won't alter the argument, so there is no issue with applicable methods. But the primary methods of the conversion function can still assume that the syntax is correct. 2017-10-06T09:11:15Z phoe_: Returns something EQ? So it returns the argument itself? 2017-10-06T09:11:23Z beach: Exactly. 2017-10-06T09:11:31Z phoe_: Is the argument to the syntax checker immutable? 2017-10-06T09:11:52Z beach: I think that would be best to respect, yes. 2017-10-06T09:11:52Z phoe_: Oh right, it is, "you won't alter the argument". 2017-10-06T09:12:26Z beach: Even so, if it were modified, there would be some mysterious error messages and backtraces. 2017-10-06T09:12:32Z beach: I try to avoid that if possible. 2017-10-06T09:12:43Z phoe_: That sounds okay. The primary methods assume that their arguments are correct, and :AROUND methods are there to catch any mistakes. 2017-10-06T09:12:56Z beach: Like: "WHAT, I never call this function with that argument!!!" 2017-10-06T09:13:11Z beach: Yes, that's my thinking. 2017-10-06T09:13:44Z phoe_: Sounds pretty right. 2017-10-06T09:13:52Z beach: Good. Thanks. 2017-10-06T09:13:57Z phoe_: Just one more question. 2017-10-06T09:14:17Z jackdaniel: that is one of premises of aspect programming 2017-10-06T09:14:24Z jackdaniel: you may validate input 2017-10-06T09:14:37Z phoe_: I don't understand calling the conversion function recursively. 2017-10-06T09:15:05Z phoe_: So there are three possible outputs from the syntax checker function: something EQ to the argument itself, something NOT EQ to the argument itself, and an error? 2017-10-06T09:15:14Z jackdaniel: phoe_: so :around method foo does call `foo' but not as (call-next-method), but rather a new function call (foo arg) 2017-10-06T09:15:39Z beach: (defmethod convert :AROUND (cst) (let ((fixed-cst (check-syntax cst))) (if (eq cst fixed-cst) (call-next-method) (convert fixed-cst)))) 2017-10-06T09:15:54Z phoe_: beach: ooh, I see. 2017-10-06T09:16:03Z phoe_: So basically you fix it until it's fixed enough. 2017-10-06T09:16:24Z beach: phoe_: No, if the syntax checker returns, it returns something that is correct. 2017-10-06T09:16:41Z beach: phoe_: But it may not return. 2017-10-06T09:16:41Z phoe_: Why can't you (call-next-method fixed-cst) then? 2017-10-06T09:16:50Z beach: Because of what pjb said. 2017-10-06T09:17:01Z beach: It is possible that fixed-cst would give different applicable methods. 2017-10-06T09:17:04Z beach: And that is not allowed. 2017-10-06T09:17:14Z phoe_: Oh! It would be an instance of a different class? 2017-10-06T09:17:21Z phoe_: s/would/could/ 2017-10-06T09:17:24Z beach: Or a different EQL specializer. 2017-10-06T09:17:32Z phoe_: I see. I understand now. 2017-10-06T09:18:10Z phoe_: So, basically, you need to make a full recursive call to make the whole CLOS magic happen again on the new syntax. 2017-10-06T09:18:20Z beach: Exactly. 2017-10-06T09:18:36Z phoe_: And, because the syntax checker will return something that is correct, there will be at most one such recursive call. 2017-10-06T09:18:42Z phoe_: So you don't risk blowing up the stack. 2017-10-06T09:18:47Z beach: Right. 2017-10-06T09:19:19Z beach: It will at most double the recursion depth for a nested form. 2017-10-06T09:19:30Z beach: But that case will be very infrequent. 2017-10-06T09:19:38Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:20:29Z beach: The recursion depth will be proportional to the nesting depth of the form to be compiled, so it should be well below 100. 2017-10-06T09:20:42Z phoe_: I guess that if you want to very, very much avoid that, you can always THROW the fixed CST up the stack. But that would be a hack, and one hundred stack frames perhaps aren't that much nowadays. 2017-10-06T09:20:56Z beach: It is not much. 2017-10-06T09:20:58Z phoe_: Especially when compiling. 2017-10-06T09:21:20Z beach: Yeah, you will usually start with an empty stack. 2017-10-06T09:25:04Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:25:48Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:35:32Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T09:46:01Z bwv quit (Quit: bwv) 2017-10-06T09:50:56Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:52:59Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:54:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:55:40Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-06T09:56:04Z juki quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-06T10:05:46Z bwv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-06T10:07:22Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:13:06Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T10:14:01Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-06T10:19:47Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:24:31Z bwv quit (Quit: bwv) 2017-10-06T10:25:18Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:25:48Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:30:12Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T10:32:21Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:35:31Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:43:13Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:45:05Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T10:47:41Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T10:50:10Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:59:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T10:59:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-06T10:59:48Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-06T11:01:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:03:20Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-06T11:03:42Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-06T11:05:27Z ym joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:10:38Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T11:11:46Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:13:01Z deba5e12 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T11:13:21Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:13:40Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T11:14:19Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:14:24Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:16:52Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T11:17:29Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T11:18:54Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:19:02Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T11:20:16Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:22:09Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:22:15Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T11:22:22Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T11:22:40Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:22:57Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:24:01Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T11:24:59Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:30:19Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:31:11Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-06T11:33:36Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T11:34:55Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-06T11:35:41Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:36:27Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:37:10Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:40:23Z koisoke_ is now known as koisoke 2017-10-06T11:40:33Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:49:51Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-06T11:51:44Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-06T11:55:00Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:01:39Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T12:01:49Z Josh_2: So apparently I don't have to use C++ for my algorithms coursework, but it has to have "good low level access" not sure what they qualify as good though. 2017-10-06T12:04:05Z Josh_2 wants to use CL ofcourse 2017-10-06T12:05:01Z xantoz: try Rust or Nim? They should have no problem qualifying for "good low level access", and at least they have macros (AFAIK Nim has lispier Macros, though). 2017-10-06T12:05:09Z bdTaylor quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-06T12:05:51Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-06T12:06:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:08:30Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:09:53Z dim: low-level access in an algo course might prevent using Garbage Collected language implementations, if I'd have to guess 2017-10-06T12:11:54Z pjb: Josh_2: Common Lisp is actually lower level than C or C++. 2017-10-06T12:12:15Z pjb: Josh_2: for example, Common Lisp let you access bits in integers. You don't have such primitives in C. 2017-10-06T12:12:31Z pjb: (ldb (byte 4 3) #xa5) #| --> 4 |# 2017-10-06T12:12:34Z dim: for some values of “low-level” which might not be the same as the teacher's definition 2017-10-06T12:12:49Z Josh_2: I will ask my lecturer to clarify what he means 2017-10-06T12:13:14Z saki quit (Quit: saki) 2017-10-06T12:13:20Z pjb: You can as easily implement a garbage collector in CL as in C. cf. https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/common-lisp/heap 2017-10-06T12:13:57Z dim: I'd advice against trying to game him or working around the rules, Josh_2, just say him you want to try in CL, and maybe attach an exercise or two made in CL for the lecturer to make his own opinion? 2017-10-06T12:15:14Z Josh_2: pjb: that does not seem simple to me 2017-10-06T12:16:15Z pjb: I didn't that garbage collecting was simple, I said that it was as easy in CL as in C (if not easier actually). 2017-10-06T12:16:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:16:33Z Josh_2: O my mistake 2017-10-06T12:17:03Z dim: Josh_2: how many assignements did you complete in CL and in something else? 2017-10-06T12:18:00Z Josh_2: I haven't had any assignments yet, it is a single project and a presentation at the end of the semester. We have to use 2 algorithms to solve a particular problem, I will assume we will be given a list of the algorithms we can pick from, although I am not certain. 2017-10-06T12:18:02Z dim: really, complete 2 to 6 of them in both C and CL, send that to the lecturer, and ask if continuing in CL is ok for him, you'll have full answer and no second guessing 2017-10-06T12:18:16Z dim: oh 2017-10-06T12:18:26Z Josh_2: We are given "labs" but they are not assessed 2017-10-06T12:19:52Z dim: well then show him a “lab” done in C and in CL and say him you'd rather implement the project in CL, unless he says otherwise 2017-10-06T12:20:22Z dim: don't ask if it's ok do use CL, say you will unless he says not to; that way you can work in CL if he doesn't answer your e-mail 2017-10-06T12:20:51Z dim: not sure about doing that in education context, but in pro context you mostly have to 2017-10-06T12:23:03Z Josh_2: If only it was just C. I'd be happy with C. Not C++ though. I'm no windoge user. 2017-10-06T12:24:06Z xantoz: Then just use C? C surely qualifies 2017-10-06T12:25:20Z pjb: CL still better :-) 2017-10-06T12:26:09Z Josh_2: ^^ 2017-10-06T12:28:18Z Josh_2: If I want to be a half decent programmer I'd have to learn C anyway. So I think I will learn C on the side. I didn't mind C++ until we started using classes, then it just became a pita. 2017-10-06T12:28:29Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T12:28:52Z xantoz: wait until you see template metaprogramming 2017-10-06T12:29:05Z dim: how many programming languages are you comfortable with? “fluent”? 2017-10-06T12:29:51Z Josh_2: xantoz: A butchered attempt at macros? 2017-10-06T12:30:01Z Josh_2: dim: I would say none, but can anyone say they are fluent at cl? 2017-10-06T12:30:15Z xantoz: Josh_2: sort-of, but worse 2017-10-06T12:30:19Z xantoz: turns out it is it's own programming language 2017-10-06T12:31:05Z xantoz: but it was not meant to be one 2017-10-06T12:31:18Z Josh_2: xantoz: I can't imagine my Uni would ever teach that. 2017-10-06T12:31:21Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:31:21Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-06T12:31:31Z xantoz: my uni C++ course touched way too little on macros... 2017-10-06T12:31:32Z pjb: You can also do the kind of low level programming you do in C, using Pascal or better, Modula-2. You can replace C++ with Modula-3 or Oberon. But of course, Common Lisp can do everything better, so… 2017-10-06T12:31:36Z xantoz: s/macros/templates 2017-10-06T12:31:47Z Josh_2: pjb: I like your way of thinking. 2017-10-06T12:32:04Z Josh_2: You are a CL elitist like me pjb you are most likely a reason for that. 2017-10-06T12:32:06Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:32:34Z xantoz: I wonder if anybody has tried implementing CL in C++ macros yet 2017-10-06T12:32:47Z xantoz: s/macros/templates 2017-10-06T12:32:50Z pjb: Yes, more or less. 2017-10-06T12:33:05Z pjb: See: http://informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 2017-10-06T12:33:41Z pjb: in particular InteLib :-) 2017-10-06T12:33:50Z Josh_2: dim: I would say I'm comfortable with Python although not fluent. CL was my first and is my favourite language. 2017-10-06T12:34:16Z pjb: Now, in practice, it's useless, because if you start using that kind of thing in an enterprise, all the teams will complain about you not writing C++ code… 2017-10-06T12:34:47Z pjb: bbl 2017-10-06T12:35:46Z xantoz: cute :) 2017-10-06T12:36:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-06T12:38:55Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:39:50Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T12:39:50Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:39:57Z dim: Josh_2: if you're fluent in none, just learn C++, then half-a-dozen other languages, and then allow yourself you have an educated opinion on C++, maybe? 2017-10-06T12:40:33Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T12:43:28Z Josh_2: Rather learn VB than learn C++ just so I can tell you in a year how much I dislike it. I don't need to have an "educated" opinion to tell you I simply do not enjoy writing programs in it. I had to do all my coursework in C++ last year. 2017-10-06T12:43:58Z Josh_2: Probably scratched the surface of what you can do with C++. Still don't like it. 2017-10-06T12:44:35Z yottabyte: ecraven: are those all R7RS languages in your benchmark? Chez scheme says it's R6RS, for example 2017-10-06T12:44:41Z varjag: if you don't like c++ at the start, it doesn't get better with time 2017-10-06T12:44:47Z yottabyte: I actually haven't found a good summary of what features R7RS adds 2017-10-06T12:45:08Z dim: Josh_2: is your course “how to like a programming language”? ;-) 2017-10-06T12:45:41Z yottabyte: also, did Cisco buy the rights/license to Chez scheme or something? they employ dybvig just so he can work on chez? or do they use chez internally too? 2017-10-06T12:45:44Z ecraven: yottabyte: no, they are not, but the benchmark code is 2017-10-06T12:45:46Z dim: what I mean is that there's value in learning C++ even if you're not going to ever choose to program in C++ for the rest of your life 2017-10-06T12:45:50Z ecraven: there's a bit of shim code to make it run on all of them 2017-10-06T12:46:03Z yottabyte: ah, nice 2017-10-06T12:46:57Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-06T12:47:28Z varjag: dim: the return on investment on learning c++ has diminished greatly 2017-10-06T12:47:36Z varjag: all the low level bits are in c really 2017-10-06T12:47:37Z phoe_: SELL! 2017-10-06T12:47:38Z phoe_ ducks 2017-10-06T12:47:49Z Josh_2: varjag: I was just about to ask that question. 2017-10-06T12:48:00Z varjag: c++ was hot in the 1990s 2017-10-06T12:48:05Z varjag: then java killed it 2017-10-06T12:48:10Z dim: varjag: you still learn how to think in a certain way and learn lots of history 2017-10-06T12:48:11Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:48:15Z yottabyte: C++ is still hot, isn't it 2017-10-06T12:48:23Z varjag: not very 2017-10-06T12:48:26Z Josh_2: Probably more history in learning Fortran 2017-10-06T12:48:28Z yottabyte: browsers such like Firefox, Chrome, etc, use C++ in droves 2017-10-06T12:48:30Z varjag: i think c# is "hotter" 2017-10-06T12:48:35Z dim: also you develop your taste I guess 2017-10-06T12:48:59Z Josh_2: By learning lots of languages you learn what you like/dislike. 2017-10-06T12:49:00Z dim: anyway it doesn't strike me as worthwile for a student to try to escape a C++ curriculum, it's not that bad 2017-10-06T12:49:08Z yottabyte: C# is getting hotter in web development maybe, but from what I see, anything systems or os related, and most major desktop apps (like the web browsers) use C++ 2017-10-06T12:49:24Z varjag: i would say you need to learn c 2017-10-06T12:49:24Z dim: as a student you probably want to learn as much as possible 2017-10-06T12:49:31Z varjag: c++ is highly optional 2017-10-06T12:49:37Z Josh_2: varjag: I agree with you. 2017-10-06T12:49:43Z varjag: nothing useful there that isn't found in other languages 2017-10-06T12:50:02Z dim: well the only important opinion on which language to learn as a student, as far as Josh_2 is concerned, seems to be his lecturer's opinion, right? 2017-10-06T12:50:28Z Josh_2: dim: I agree with that, but I would have to choose whether to become okay at a wide variety of languages or better with a select few. Broad or focussed learning. 2017-10-06T12:50:29Z dim: let's be clear, I dispised C++ when I was taught it, and never used it again 2017-10-06T12:51:05Z dim: Josh_2: how many hours are you going to spend doing C++ this year? total in your studies? what scale is your reasoning? 2017-10-06T12:51:37Z dim: it's like avoiding an O(N) or worse algo on a 10 items list 2017-10-06T12:51:44Z Josh_2: dim: The only reason we are using C++ is because my course is throw in with the game dev students who have to use C++ in industry. Otherwise I'd bed that we would be using Python. 2017-10-06T12:51:47Z dim: you just don't care if the list only has 10 elements ;-) 2017-10-06T12:52:14Z dim: it's a 10 hours course? 100 hours? 2017-10-06T12:52:33Z hajovonta: I have two objects, and I want to define an operation where I add certain slot of the objects and want to use the + operator for that. But then I get an error that the function already exists and then I can replace the existing binding or abort. 2017-10-06T12:52:45Z hajovonta: how do I properly do this? 2017-10-06T12:53:00Z dim: hajovonta: we need the code to help you 2017-10-06T12:53:15Z dim: hajovonta: it sounds like you're trying to implement a method on a function that is not a generic function, tho 2017-10-06T12:53:35Z hajovonta: i typed (defgeneric + (var1 var2)) 2017-10-06T12:53:49Z dim: in which package? 2017-10-06T12:54:00Z hajovonta: in my-package 2017-10-06T12:54:09Z varjag: dim: sure, if it's in the curriculum i guess you have to get through it 2017-10-06T12:54:31Z hajovonta: but it uses :cl 2017-10-06T12:54:38Z varjag: i similarly suffered through pascal, can't say it made me a better dev 2017-10-06T12:54:46Z dim: varjag: exactly, my argument is that I don't think it's worthwile to whine and try to do CL instead... 2017-10-06T12:54:58Z hajovonta: i can do something like (defgeneric add (var1 var2)) 2017-10-06T12:55:09Z hajovonta: then write the defmethod and it's working fine 2017-10-06T12:55:14Z beach: hajovonta: You need to shadow + in that package if you want to be able to use +. 2017-10-06T12:55:50Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T12:55:57Z hajovonta: beach: but will I lose the functionality altogether or will I shadow it just for the operation defined in the defmethod? I mean, between two objects 2017-10-06T12:56:20Z hajovonta: because I will need the standard + when adding two numbers 2017-10-06T12:56:24Z dim: you still can use cl:+ 2017-10-06T12:56:25Z beach: hajovonta: You are not allowed to modify the Common Lisp + function. 2017-10-06T12:56:27Z hajovonta: I just want to extend it to my objects 2017-10-06T12:56:31Z Josh_2: dim: I wasn't whining... expressing a dislike for something is not whining. I'm going to use C. 2017-10-06T12:56:41Z beach: hajovonta: You can't extend the Common Lisp + function. 2017-10-06T12:56:47Z beach: hajovonta: It is not a generic function. 2017-10-06T12:56:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T12:57:08Z dim: Josh_2: sorry, I'm not an English native speaker, might have used the wrong word here 2017-10-06T12:57:23Z beach: hajovonta: But you can add a method to your + like this: (defmethod + ((x number) (y number)) (cl:+ x y)) 2017-10-06T12:57:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-06T12:57:50Z Josh_2: dim: Don't worry about it. Thank you for your input, I appreciate it. You also varjag. 2017-10-06T12:58:46Z Josh_2: Now I just have to get some time management skills so I can learn more CL at the same time. 2017-10-06T12:58:56Z hajovonta: beach: thanks. 2017-10-06T12:59:03Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-06T12:59:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:00:43Z varjag: yottabyte: most systems related stuff is c by huge margin 2017-10-06T13:00:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:01:10Z Josh_2: Isn't C# just M$ version of Java? 2017-10-06T13:01:39Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:02:04Z varjag: it was certainly their answer to java 2017-10-06T13:02:24Z varjag: it's not bad, from the little i know 2017-10-06T13:02:44Z dim: Josh_2: implement your assignements in both C++ and CL 2017-10-06T13:03:15Z Josh_2: I already repeat all my work in CL. 2017-10-06T13:03:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T13:07:09Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-06T13:09:18Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:16:07Z |3b|`` is now known as |3b| 2017-10-06T13:19:28Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T13:20:04Z Josh_2: Just got this from my lecturer http://i.imgur.com/WVmS9Ng.png 2017-10-06T13:21:41Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:22:08Z clintm: All I can think about is that they used winky-face. Not sure what that says about me. 2017-10-06T13:22:55Z Josh_2: Well I asked last week if we have to use C++ and he said yes. But this week he has changed it so we don't have to use C++. Which is nice. 2017-10-06T13:23:12Z clintm: That is definitely a plus! 2017-10-06T13:23:30Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T13:23:32Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:24:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:24:27Z Josh_2: He's actually changed the written specification. 2017-10-06T13:24:44Z dlowe: that sounds hard as an instructor 2017-10-06T13:24:59Z Josh_2: He wrote the spec, so I'm sure he can change it 2017-10-06T13:25:06Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T13:27:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:27:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T13:29:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:32:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T13:32:38Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:33:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-06T13:33:53Z dlowe: I mean to verify correctness in N languages 2017-10-06T13:34:41Z Josh_2: Well we are technically assessed on our presentation. So I think he will care more that we understand the algorithms than the actually code we write. 2017-10-06T13:34:53Z dlowe: yes, but *he* has to understand the code you write 2017-10-06T13:35:30Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:35:53Z Josh_2: Well I asked him if he has used any Lisp before, he has written Scheme and has a complicated .emacs file so I think he'll be fine 2017-10-06T13:36:32Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:38:35Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:40:16Z xristos_ is now known as xristos 2017-10-06T13:40:45Z xristos is now known as Guest43259 2017-10-06T13:40:53Z Guest43259 is now known as xristos` 2017-10-06T13:41:02Z xristos` is now known as xristos 2017-10-06T13:41:06Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2017-10-06T13:41:06Z xristos joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:43:53Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-06T13:46:38Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-06T13:46:40Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:50:48Z quazimodo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-06T13:55:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:56:07Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-06T13:56:15Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-06T13:57:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-06T13:58:53Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-06T14:06:36Z Josh_2: Gonna talk to one of my lecturers about swapping courses 2017-10-06T14:06:49Z thblt joined #lisp 2017-10-06T14:07:43Z rumbler31: accidentally posted this to lispgames, would like your opinions http://paste.lisp.org/display/357790 2017-10-06T14:09:27Z Josh_2: Couldn't you just wrap (if "0.0063451775%" but in sbcl "0.63451775%" 2017-10-07T07:10:23Z clintm: I guess I should probably ask in #ccl. 2017-10-07T07:13:01Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T07:13:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T07:13:04Z clintm: beach: I think that's a pretty sound hypothesis. 2017-10-07T07:13:28Z beach: What is ~,,2f supposed to do? 2017-10-07T07:14:03Z Shinmera: beach: I mean, your hypothesis is at least true for me. 2017-10-07T07:14:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-07T07:14:49Z clintm: beach: I'm going to admit, I'm not completely sure. I'm dusting off an old project. 2017-10-07T07:15:12Z beach: The SBCL output looks wrong. 2017-10-07T07:15:43Z beach: Oh, scale factor. 2017-10-07T07:15:45Z beach: I see. 2017-10-07T07:16:05Z beach: So CCL is wrong then. 2017-10-07T07:18:13Z jackdaniel: ECL is right \o/ 2017-10-07T07:18:21Z clintm: haha 2017-10-07T07:23:01Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T07:26:38Z itself_famishing quit (Quit: peace out) 2017-10-07T07:31:40Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-07T07:36:17Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T07:37:36Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-07T07:38:20Z pjb: clintm: a nice bug in ccl, indeed. 2017-10-07T07:39:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T07:42:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T07:54:32Z clintm: Thanks! I guess I should add an issue if it's not there already. Got sidetracked about something else and forgot for a bit. 2017-10-07T07:59:35Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:04:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:04:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:05:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T08:09:54Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:10:03Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:11:15Z MrBusiness3 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:13:48Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T08:15:12Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-07T08:16:19Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T08:17:46Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-07T08:18:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:19:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T08:21:33Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:22:18Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:28:06Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:33:01Z yaocl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T08:33:25Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:50:20Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T08:50:54Z rixard joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:52:37Z rixard quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T08:56:23Z rixard joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:57:25Z drot quit (Quit: Quit.) 2017-10-07T08:58:54Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T08:58:59Z drot joined #lisp 2017-10-07T08:59:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:09:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:12:37Z rixard quit (Quit: (exit)) 2017-10-07T09:13:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T09:13:45Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:22:37Z rixard joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:26:27Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:26:32Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T09:29:49Z rixard quit (Quit: (exit)) 2017-10-07T09:30:55Z reu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T09:34:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:41:35Z beach: Time to get a new computer. This one has unpredictable random memory errors it seems. 2017-10-07T09:51:12Z phoe_: beach: Won't it be enough to find and replace the faulty RAM chip? 2017-10-07T09:51:26Z phoe_: You can use a boot-time utility called memtest to verify RAM dice. 2017-10-07T09:55:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:55:51Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-07T09:57:14Z clintm: beach: there used to be a usb, cd, and floppy image that the memtest project produced that booted just enough of something to run memtest. It's been years since I've needed it though. 2017-10-07T09:57:48Z clintm: yea, they still do it. cd and usb images on the memtest86 download page. 2017-10-07T10:05:46Z beach: phoe_: My experience is that, whenever I replace my computer, the kind of chips they use has changed. 2017-10-07T10:06:47Z beach: clintm: I think the BIOS has a memory test as well, but I hate to take my computer down. It takes forever to re-create my 36 workspaces. 2017-10-07T10:06:53Z phoe_: beach: That's right, but you still can get unused older chips unless your computer is so old that it needs to be replaced anyway. 2017-10-07T10:07:10Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:07:44Z beach: I think it is time for a new one anyway. 2017-10-07T10:08:32Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T10:09:39Z phoe_: In this case, it's shopping time for you. 2017-10-07T10:13:06Z beach: I usually contact one of those companies that build computers. That way, I don't have to pay for a commercial operating system. And I get the configuration that I want. Plus, I keep local companies in business. 2017-10-07T10:13:31Z phoe_: Yay! 2017-10-07T10:13:53Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T10:18:01Z Arun__ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:19:09Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-07T10:19:54Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:20:15Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:22:25Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T10:23:18Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-07T10:23:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:24:16Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:26:35Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:29:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T10:32:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-07T10:33:12Z MoritaShinobu joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:34:23Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:36:33Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:39:28Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T10:39:52Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:43:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T10:44:24Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:45:19Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T10:46:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2017-10-07T10:47:11Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:49:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T10:49:55Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:49:55Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:50:00Z clintm: beach: oh man, I know the feeling. re. workspaces... 2017-10-07T10:53:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T10:54:25Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:54:37Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T10:54:46Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-10-07T10:57:26Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-07T10:57:41Z beach: Yeah. And because of Unix stupidity, whenever I update the operating system, I need to restart my computer, thereby losing all my workspaces as well. 2017-10-07T11:02:05Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:03:47Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-07T11:04:01Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T11:04:25Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:08:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:10:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:14:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T11:15:16Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:15:37Z beach: Anyway, I won't elaborate, because last time I did, tetero felt insulted, left #lisp, and apparently never came back. 2017-10-07T11:15:42Z marvin3 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:16:38Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:18:23Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T11:21:54Z clintm: I think that says more about them than you, but no one asked me. 2017-10-07T11:23:48Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-07T11:24:06Z beach: I think you are right. 2017-10-07T11:27:57Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-07T11:29:16Z beach: As part of the SICL boot procedure, I create several first-class global environments. I create them in a sequence without any intervening code (other than a message printed with FORMAT), and always in the same way: (MAKE-INSTANCE 'SICL-EXTRINSIC-ENVIRONMENT:ENVIRONMENT). 2017-10-07T11:29:21Z beach: The fifth time, it fails with an error that too many arguments were supplied to a macro function. The macro function in question has a lambda list with a single parameter (which is wrong). 2017-10-07T11:29:22Z beach: But I can't see how that is possible, given that I have created many macros before, and in fact, it worked four times before. But I worry, because it happened twice in the same way. Can a memory problem really be the cause of that? 2017-10-07T11:29:35Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T11:30:28Z beach: I know. I should ask someone else to run it. 2017-10-07T11:30:45Z beach: But that someone needs a pretty good computer and a 10GB SBCL image. 2017-10-07T11:31:03Z beach: ... and some patience. 2017-10-07T11:31:11Z clintm: heh. 2017-10-07T11:31:20Z clintm: I'll try... I'm between distractions. 2017-10-07T11:31:40Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:31:57Z beach: OK, thanks. You need to clone SICL and make sure that ASDF finds the system files in the repository. 2017-10-07T11:32:47Z beach: Oh, and you will need some prerequisites as well. Acclimation (in Quicklisp) and Concrete Syntax Tree. 2017-10-07T11:33:40Z beach: Then you should just have to do (asdf:load-system :sicl-boot), (in-package #:sicl-boot), (make-instance 'boot) 2017-10-07T11:33:59Z beach: There might be other dependencies as well that I forgot about. 2017-10-07T11:34:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T11:34:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:34:53Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:35:29Z clintm: (make-instance-ing now... 2017-10-07T11:36:17Z beach: Great! Do you see a message that an environment is being created? 2017-10-07T11:36:54Z clintm: It's loading a bunch of files at the moment. standard-environment-functions.lisp 2017-10-07T11:37:03Z beach: Right. 2017-10-07T11:37:06Z beach: That's normal 2017-10-07T11:37:07Z clintm: is/was the current one. 2017-10-07T11:37:26Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-07T11:37:34Z clintm: It's freebsd, btw. Hopefully that doesn't matter. 2017-10-07T11:37:52Z beach: It shouldn't. I am not using any OS functions. 2017-10-07T11:38:09Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T11:38:14Z clintm: Getting a drink... back in a sec. 2017-10-07T11:38:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T11:39:25Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:43:28Z clintm: These must be some rugged files. 2017-10-07T11:43:51Z beach: No, they are not loaded by SBCL load. 2017-10-07T11:44:16Z beach: They are compiled to AST then HIR then translated to a huge Common Lisp program, then compiled by the SBCL compiler. :) 2017-10-07T11:44:22Z beach: That's what makes it slow. 2017-10-07T11:44:31Z MoritaShinobu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T11:44:31Z clintm: Environment/standard-environment-functions.lisp / cleavir-environment:no-function-info / undefined function named common-lisp:setf 2017-10-07T11:44:52Z beach: Wow. 2017-10-07T11:44:54Z beach: Thanks 2017-10-07T11:45:04Z beach: I got that error too, but only when using the cache. 2017-10-07T11:45:13Z beach: Did you set *cache-p* to T? 2017-10-07T11:45:47Z clintm: oooh, I copy/pasted from the project readme. 2017-10-07T11:46:00Z clintm: That was dumb. You didn't say to do that. 2017-10-07T11:46:07Z beach: I didn't :) 2017-10-07T11:46:29Z beach: Before starting over, you may want to restart your SBCL. 2017-10-07T11:46:35Z beach: It is easy to run out of heap. 2017-10-07T11:47:18Z clintm: Restarted, and now loading again. 2017-10-07T11:52:51Z beach: If it gets to "Finished creating run-time environment R4", I have my answer. 2017-10-07T11:54:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T11:54:42Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T11:55:18Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:57:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:57:49Z clintm: Well past the point where it died last time... 2017-10-07T11:58:12Z beach: Whew! Is it still working on creating environment C1? 2017-10-07T11:58:22Z MoritaShinobu joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:58:22Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-07T11:58:34Z clintm: Nope, on C2 - shiftf-defmacro.lisp 2017-10-07T11:58:39Z beach: Great! 2017-10-07T11:58:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T11:59:25Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:00:20Z Arun__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T12:00:37Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:04:48Z clintm: Oh, about 10 files into R1... I was reading in the other monitor. 2017-10-07T12:05:08Z beach: Great. I think it failed for me during the creation of R2. 2017-10-07T12:06:46Z joaj joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:08:24Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-07T12:08:36Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:11:29Z Nickname123 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:11:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:12:21Z clintm: R2... 2017-10-07T12:15:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T12:17:31Z kilfer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T12:27:48Z beach: Any progress? 2017-10-07T12:31:11Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T12:31:21Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:32:24Z Nickname123 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-07T12:35:04Z clintm: R3 / remf-defmacro.lisp 2017-10-07T12:35:10Z clintm: and counting... 2017-10-07T12:35:24Z beach: Excellent! 2017-10-07T12:37:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T12:39:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T12:39:52Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:41:33Z kilfer joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:42:07Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:42:34Z clintm: End of phase 3 / # 2017-10-07T12:43:08Z beach: Excellent!!!!! 2017-10-07T12:43:22Z beach: Thank you so much. You saved me at least a day of mystery debugging. 2017-10-07T12:43:39Z clintm: hehe any time. 2017-10-07T12:44:32Z beach: I might take you up on that. :) 2017-10-07T12:48:59Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T12:49:23Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:50:55Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:54:01Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T12:56:05Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T12:59:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T12:59:53Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:00:35Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:01:35Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:03:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T13:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T13:04:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:04:29Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:08:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T13:16:39Z reu joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:20:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:24:17Z neoncont_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T13:29:35Z Posterdati: hi 2017-10-07T13:29:53Z beach: Hello Posterdati. 2017-10-07T13:29:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:39:11Z Josh_2: Afternoon Posterdati 2017-10-07T13:39:32Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:40:24Z neoncont_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T13:41:41Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T13:43:31Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T13:44:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T13:44:47Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:44:50Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:45:03Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:46:11Z panji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T13:48:14Z xxoxx joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:49:16Z Posterdati: what's up folks? 2017-10-07T13:49:24Z SaganMan: yo 2017-10-07T13:50:05Z beach: Posterdati: I have what seems to be a working version of the CST-to-AST system in Cleavir. 2017-10-07T13:50:09Z xxoxx: hi 2017-10-07T13:51:01Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T13:51:52Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T13:52:25Z whoman: Concrete? 2017-10-07T13:52:51Z beach: whoman: Yes, just a Common Lisp form wrapped in standard objects to keep track of source information. 2017-10-07T13:53:04Z whoman: ah ok cool=) 2017-10-07T13:55:58Z Shinmera: Working on an article that quickly describes all of my projects. I hope that helps some people find some libraries they could use but weren't aware of. 2017-10-07T13:56:11Z phoe_: Shinmera: yes! I'd love that. 2017-10-07T13:56:29Z phoe_: There is also https://www.quicklisp.org/tmp/dls.html but much more general. 2017-10-07T13:56:44Z phoe_: beach: Congrats! 2017-10-07T13:56:50Z beach: Thanks. 2017-10-07T13:57:25Z whoman: i started a new project to organize my projects. i have to accept that it will never be "finished" but hopefully always complete. 2017-10-07T13:57:51Z phoe_: >i started a new project to organize my projects 2017-10-07T13:57:55Z phoe_: obligatory https://xkcd.com/927/ 2017-10-07T13:57:58Z phoe_: but I know the pain. 2017-10-07T13:58:03Z rjid joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:58:51Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:58:59Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T13:59:21Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T13:59:30Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-07T14:00:31Z whoman: =) hopefully org mode will keep my head by excersizing digital containment 2017-10-07T14:01:48Z whoman: as a human, i find it is also healthy to maintain human language connection, rather than my wierd idea to use raw elisp for documenting. 2017-10-07T14:02:05Z phoe_: s/as a human/as a whoman/ 2017-10-07T14:02:11Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:02:30Z phoe_ ducks 2017-10-07T14:03:52Z whoman: a human duck?? =) my only ideas of human[ity] are formed by following the conventions of others =) 2017-10-07T14:03:55Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:04:11Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:04:26Z whoman: (others rated by how much like myself they are, whatever they are) 2017-10-07T14:05:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:07:21Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:09:20Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T14:09:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:09:52Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T14:09:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:10:25Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:10:28Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:19:17Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:21:26Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:21:36Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:27:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:28:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:29:19Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:29:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T14:29:50Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:36:09Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-07T14:38:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T14:38:59Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T14:39:25Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:39:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:40:11Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-07T14:40:23Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:44:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:48:38Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:48:43Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:49:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T14:49:52Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T14:51:13Z Jalapen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:53:37Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T14:57:42Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-07T14:57:58Z joaj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-07T14:58:09Z Shinmera: Here we are. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/357 2017-10-07T14:58:41Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T14:58:59Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T14:59:25Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:00:12Z Josh_2: Shinmera: You get a lot done. 2017-10-07T15:00:28Z Shinmera: It appears so. 2017-10-07T15:01:57Z Josh_2: Is that your art? 2017-10-07T15:02:00Z Shinmera: No 2017-10-07T15:02:18Z Shinmera: My art is here: http://tumblr.shinmera.com/ 2017-10-07T15:02:51Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:03:09Z Josh_2: You can draw me a poisoned lion if you want :D 2017-10-07T15:03:43Z Shinmera: Is that a euphemism for something? 2017-10-07T15:04:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T15:04:37Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:04:51Z Josh_2: No 2017-10-07T15:04:53Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:05:19Z Shinmera: Not sure how poisoning is something that would be particularly well depictable graphically, then. 2017-10-07T15:06:02Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T15:08:46Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T15:09:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:13:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:13:59Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T15:14:13Z Bike: green, lil purple gas skulls 2017-10-07T15:14:23Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:16:16Z Josh_2: It could be bitten by a snake 2017-10-07T15:16:40Z Shinmera: Well, either way, Requests only by email. 2017-10-07T15:19:08Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T15:19:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T15:19:44Z grumble2 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:19:51Z grumble quit (Quit: the) 2017-10-07T15:19:55Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:22:19Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-07T15:22:55Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:23:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T15:24:23Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:26:52Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:27:11Z phoe_: >qtools 2017-10-07T15:27:13Z phoe_: >minor 2017-10-07T15:27:21Z phoe_: Shinmera: I don't think that's correct 2017-10-07T15:27:31Z flip214: Can I tell ASDF to use some specific *PACKAGE* during reading of one file? 2017-10-07T15:28:32Z phoe_: flip214: why doesn't that file have an IN-PACKAGE call on top of it? 2017-10-07T15:28:44Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:29:00Z flip214: phoe_: because it gets auto-generated by swig, and so it would be easier to tell ASDF which package should be active 2017-10-07T15:29:37Z phoe_: flip214: swig autogenerates that file? Is it in Lisp syntax? 2017-10-07T15:30:06Z flip214: I guess I could use :around-compile 2017-10-07T15:30:17Z flip214: phoe_: yes, swig gives me CFFI output 2017-10-07T15:30:28Z phoe_: I see. 2017-10-07T15:30:29Z sjl: phoe_: yes, swig will generate lisp 2017-10-07T15:30:41Z sjl: e.g. https://github.com/sjl/cl-blt/blob/master/src/low-level/bearlibterminal.swig generates https://github.com/sjl/cl-blt/blob/master/src/low-level/bearlibterminal.lisp 2017-10-07T15:31:08Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T15:31:17Z grumble2 left #lisp 2017-10-07T15:31:49Z Josh_2: Shinmera: I like the way you write. 2017-10-07T15:32:24Z flip214: looks like :around-compile does what I need.... thanks anyway! 2017-10-07T15:35:07Z sebastien_ quit (Quit: Reboot) 2017-10-07T15:36:21Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T15:40:18Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:45:32Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:45:57Z Shinmera: phoe_: Well, I consider it minor rather than major. 2017-10-07T15:46:12Z Shinmera: Josh_2: Glad to hear. 2017-10-07T15:48:14Z Shinmera: Josh_2: There's plenty of other articles on the site for you to read, then :) 2017-10-07T15:48:20Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-07T15:54:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T15:54:53Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T15:56:59Z phoe_: Shinmera: understood. From my point of view, it's a rather big improvement over CommonQt though. 2017-10-07T15:57:15Z Shinmera: Well, I didn't categorise them by impact :) 2017-10-07T15:58:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T15:59:23Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:04:26Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:04:51Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:05:21Z kilfer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:05:34Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:07:26Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:07:57Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:09:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:10:29Z kilfer joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:12:35Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:14:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T16:14:50Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:18:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T16:19:16Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:19:23Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:20:47Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:23:09Z phoe_: You should. (: 2017-10-07T16:24:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T16:25:23Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:26:01Z Shinmera: I'll leave that to someone who cares more about it than I do 2017-10-07T16:26:21Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:27:00Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:27:09Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:27:55Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:28:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T16:29:21Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:29:23Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:30:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T16:33:23Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:34:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T16:34:52Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:36:21Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:36:50Z sjl: is there something built-in or in a utils library somewhere that will mapcar, but only stop at the end of the longest list, filling in values for shorter lists with a default value? 2017-10-07T16:37:21Z sjl: e.g. I want (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '(10 20)) 2017-10-07T16:37:26Z sjl: but instead 2017-10-07T16:37:41Z sjl: (mapcar-longest #'+ 0 '(1 2 3) '(10 20)) 2017-10-07T16:37:52Z sjl: to return (11 22 3) 2017-10-07T16:38:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T16:39:28Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:41:43Z phoe_: sjl: I think not 2017-10-07T16:41:54Z sjl: quickutil has a zip-long 2017-10-07T16:41:58Z sjl: but that's all I've found 2017-10-07T16:42:05Z sjl: alexandria and serapeum don't seem to have it 2017-10-07T16:42:13Z yottabyte quit 2017-10-07T16:42:57Z phoe_: sjl: time to write it and submit to some sorta library then 2017-10-07T16:43:03Z phoe_: I don't recall seeing such an util anywhere. 2017-10-07T16:44:47Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-07T16:46:50Z sjl: probably a better way to do it, but http://paste.stevelosh.com/59d904eca46df70008775a50 2017-10-07T16:54:47Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2017-10-07T16:54:57Z phoe_: >#'head 2017-10-07T16:55:12Z phoe_: hey, but we already have #'car and #'first! 2017-10-07T16:55:38Z sjl: I needed a name for a nil-patched car 2017-10-07T16:56:43Z sjl: and im bad at naming 2017-10-07T17:01:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:01:03Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-07T17:01:46Z Shinmera: maybe-car 2017-10-07T17:02:08Z Shinmera: Oh wait, that would be if it returns NIL, not "error on nil" 2017-10-07T17:02:23Z Shinmera: Then something like ensure-car 2017-10-07T17:02:26Z sjl: ah, alexandria's ensure-car 2017-10-07T17:02:28Z sjl: yeah 2017-10-07T17:03:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:03:07Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:03:11Z Shinmera: Generally I name things ensure- if it should error on unfound, and maybe- if it should NIL on unfound or error. 2017-10-07T17:03:26Z sjl: wait 2017-10-07T17:03:33Z sjl: "If `thing` is a `cons`, its `car` is returned. Otherwise `thing` is returned." 2017-10-07T17:03:36Z sjl: that's not what I want 2017-10-07T17:04:00Z sjl: I want "if thing is a cons, its car is returned, otherwise some default value is returned" 2017-10-07T17:04:26Z Shinmera: Not what I would expect ensure-car to do, tbqh 2017-10-07T17:04:54Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:05:09Z Bike quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-10-07T17:05:14Z sjl: right, so I don't want that for this case 2017-10-07T17:05:17Z phoe_: sjl: uh, "some default value" 2017-10-07T17:05:21Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2017-10-07T17:05:25Z sjl: phoe_: the one I pass in 2017-10-07T17:05:26Z phoe_: (ensure-car thing default) 2017-10-07T17:05:41Z phoe_: if thing is a cons, its car is returned, otherwise, default is returned 2017-10-07T17:05:46Z phoe_: so you can do (nth n list) 2017-10-07T17:05:51Z phoe_: and either you get a valid cons and return its car 2017-10-07T17:05:58Z phoe_: or you get a NIL when you run out of conses and you return default 2017-10-07T17:06:17Z phoe_: (ensure-car (nth n list) default) 2017-10-07T17:06:26Z sjl: phoe_: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/master/lists.lisp#L246-250 2017-10-07T17:06:31Z sjl: that's not how ensure-car works 2017-10-07T17:06:41Z phoe_: oh wait 2017-10-07T17:06:49Z phoe_: damn it. correct. 2017-10-07T17:06:57Z phoe_: (or (ensure-car (nth n list)) default) 2017-10-07T17:07:14Z phoe_: it'll return NIL in case of proper lists, at which point you can default. 2017-10-07T17:07:15Z sjl: phoe_: what if the car of the list is nil? 2017-10-07T17:07:28Z phoe_: huh, correct 2017-10-07T17:07:41Z phoe_: it stops being trivial now. 2017-10-07T17:07:47Z sjl: I mean, it's still trivial 2017-10-07T17:07:54Z sjl: it just doesn't already exist 2017-10-07T17:08:40Z phoe_: (if (nthcdr n list) (nth n list) default) 2017-10-07T17:08:58Z phoe_: double traversal, yuck 2017-10-07T17:09:20Z phoe_: (let ((cons (nthcdr n list))) (if cons (car cons) default)) 2017-10-07T17:09:21Z stux|RC-only quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2017-10-07T17:09:45Z phoe_: still, it's linear, so if you iterate, it'll be quadratic 2017-10-07T17:11:02Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:11:18Z sjl: the version I pasted should be O(number of lists * length of longest list), right? 2017-10-07T17:11:24Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:11:35Z phoe_: one second 2017-10-07T17:11:39Z Posterdati: beach: the what? 2017-10-07T17:11:44Z phoe_: http://paste.stevelosh.com/59d904eca46df70008775a50 this, right? 2017-10-07T17:11:49Z Posterdati: beach: what is CST-to-AST? 2017-10-07T17:11:49Z sjl: yes 2017-10-07T17:12:18Z sjl: it iterates until all the lists are finish, which takes length-of-longest-list times 2017-10-07T17:12:41Z phoe_: yes, for N lists with max length of M you iterate M*N times 2017-10-07T17:12:48Z sjl: and at each step, it iterates over the collection of lists 3 times (every, advance, mapcar) 2017-10-07T17:12:49Z phoe_: so basically once for each list element 2017-10-07T17:13:16Z sjl: I could potentially combine the advance/finish check to get it down to 2N 2017-10-07T17:13:20Z sjl: but I don't care enough right now 2017-10-07T17:13:28Z phoe_: so it's O(n) where n is number of conses 2017-10-07T17:13:40Z phoe_: like, total of all lists 2017-10-07T17:13:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:14:25Z sjl: M*N does not equal the number of conses... 2017-10-07T17:14:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T17:14:37Z phoe_: M lists, each with N conses 2017-10-07T17:14:46Z sjl: sure, if they all have the same number 2017-10-07T17:14:53Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:14:58Z phoe_: yes - less, if there's less 2017-10-07T17:15:03Z sjl: but if I do (mapcar-long ... (1 2 3 ... 1000)) 2017-10-07T17:15:07Z sjl: and then add another list into it 2017-10-07T17:15:13Z sjl: (mapcar-long ... (1 2 3 ... 1000) ()) 2017-10-07T17:15:25Z sjl: it doubles the number of operations, right? 2017-10-07T17:15:35Z sjl: but only adds a single cons to the total 2017-10-07T17:15:37Z phoe_: you are right - I was giving an upper bound there, not trying to be precise and correct :) 2017-10-07T17:15:46Z phoe_: 2000 operations, correct. 2017-10-07T17:16:20Z sjl: yeah, so I could potentially improve it, but this is clear and works well enough for what I need right now 2017-10-07T17:16:26Z zachk joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:20:15Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:21:17Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:22:32Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:23:59Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T17:24:08Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:24:22Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:25:01Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:25:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T17:26:00Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:26:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:26:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:27:55Z flip214: the list of lists could be trimmed, and then the end-check becomes (null list-of-lists) 2017-10-07T17:28:09Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T17:28:13Z sjl: flip214: but then how do you know where the placeholders go in the arglist to apply? 2017-10-07T17:28:26Z flip214: oh, so much flexibility is wanted? 2017-10-07T17:28:45Z flip214: I thought that some function should just get "a list of arguments", never mind which original list they're from 2017-10-07T17:28:52Z sjl: I mean, (mapcar-long ... '(1 2 3) () '(10 20)) should work properly 2017-10-07T17:29:01Z sjl: yes, I want the order of args preserved... 2017-10-07T17:29:04Z sjl: just like mapcar 2017-10-07T17:29:12Z flip214: the order, yes. 2017-10-07T17:30:08Z flip214: but if the arguments don't have any special role within the called function (so NILs can be removed), you could reduce the number of lists during traversal. 2017-10-07T17:30:47Z sjl: for a case like + that would work, but other cases it might not 2017-10-07T17:30:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:33:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:34:42Z bdTaylor joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:36:47Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:39:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T17:39:50Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:40:26Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:41:47Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:43:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T17:44:30Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:44:51Z stux|RC-only quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2017-10-07T17:46:27Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:48:53Z babalua_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:49:09Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:49:20Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:49:24Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T17:50:08Z babalua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-07T17:53:15Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:53:21Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T17:54:20Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-07T17:55:27Z sjl: also if anyone knows of a way to iterate over a list L plus one extra value that's cleaner than https://github.com/sjl/euler/blob/master/src/problems.lisp#L1896-L1898 please let me know 2017-10-07T17:57:24Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-07T17:57:31Z pjb: sjl: (loop for e in (cons 'one-more list) do (something e)) 2017-10-07T17:58:28Z pjb: sjl: (loop for previous in (cons nil list) for current in list do (something-with previous current)) 2017-10-07T18:05:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T18:07:21Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T18:07:56Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:08:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:21:17Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T18:23:04Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:24:28Z babalua_ quit (Quit: babalua_) 2017-10-07T18:24:56Z babalua_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:32:06Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:33:58Z sjl: pjb: that adds 'one-more to the beginning of the iteration, I want it at the end 2017-10-07T18:34:40Z sjl: e.g. (loop :for x :in '(1 2 3) ...plus 4 somehow... (collect x)) => (1 2 3 4) 2017-10-07T18:34:54Z sjl: without reversing the list or appending or something equally wasteful 2017-10-07T18:38:59Z babalua_ quit (Quit: babalua_) 2017-10-07T18:39:25Z babalua_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:41:33Z pjb: sjl: (loop for e in list do (something e) finally (something 'one-more)) 2017-10-07T18:43:07Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:44:28Z babalua_ quit (Quit: babalua_) 2017-10-07T18:44:55Z babalua_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:47:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:50:43Z sjl: that works for side effects, but doesn't work for collecting/etc. I'll probably just write an iterate driver for it 2017-10-07T18:51:20Z whoman: two fors.. 2017-10-07T18:51:36Z sjl: that steps them in parallel? 2017-10-07T18:53:59Z babalua_ quit (Quit: babalua_) 2017-10-07T18:54:23Z babalua_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T18:54:38Z arrdem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-07T18:54:42Z |3b|: (loop for (x . m) on '(1 2 3) collect x unless m collect 4) is a slightly ugly way 2017-10-07T18:55:05Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-07T18:55:06Z sjl: yeah 2017-10-07T18:58:07Z bwv quit (Quit: bwv) 2017-10-07T18:59:28Z babalua_ quit (Quit: babalua_) 2017-10-07T18:59:54Z babalua_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:02:20Z jackdaniel: sjl: (alexandria:mappend 'fun (list 1 2 3) (list 4)) 2017-10-07T19:03:06Z sjl: jackdaniel: which of my questions is that for? 2017-10-07T19:03:40Z jackdaniel: about iterating over a list plus one extra value 2017-10-07T19:03:59Z babalua_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T19:04:04Z sjl: I'm ... not sure how that does that? 2017-10-07T19:04:26Z babalua_ joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:04:33Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-07T19:05:09Z sjl: that requires the function to return a list, which gets appended 2017-10-07T19:05:47Z jackdaniel: hm, nvm me 2017-10-07T19:06:07Z sjl: http://paste.stevelosh.com/59d925984221e30008a616c9 2017-10-07T19:06:16Z sjl: there's an iterate driver that does what I was looking for 2017-10-07T19:06:23Z sjl: (iterate (for x :in-list '(1 2 3) :initially 0 :finally 4) (collect (cons x (square x)))) 2017-10-07T19:06:28Z sjl: ((0 . 0) (1 . 1) (2 . 4) (3 . 9) (4 . 16)) 2017-10-07T19:06:47Z jackdaniel: yes, I have confused things, mb 2017-10-07T19:06:48Z sjl: just need to make it not *require* both args now... 2017-10-07T19:09:46Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:10:06Z sjl: gross http://paste.stevelosh.com/59d926824221e30008a616ca 2017-10-07T19:10:11Z sjl: but it works 2017-10-07T19:11:35Z sjl: http://paste.stevelosh.com/59d926c94221e30008a616cb?lisp macroexpansions 2017-10-07T19:14:50Z bdTaylor quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-07T19:19:28Z babalua_ quit (Quit: babalua_) 2017-10-07T19:23:11Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:23:29Z phoe_: sjl: what's WITH? 2017-10-07T19:23:47Z phoe_: oh wait, this isn't your average macroexpand 2017-10-07T19:24:01Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T19:24:22Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:26:27Z sjl: yeah this is an iterate driver's macroexpansion 2017-10-07T19:26:39Z sjl: so it gets spliced into an (iterate ...) form 2017-10-07T19:27:39Z abrcdbr joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:29:22Z sjl: also there's a bug 2017-10-07T19:29:28Z sjl: if final-value should be if final-value? 2017-10-07T19:29:37Z sjl: otherwise a final-value of nil breaks things 2017-10-07T19:32:14Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-07T19:46:14Z hel-io quit 2017-10-07T19:47:32Z sjl: fixed version https://github.com/sjl/euler/blob/3eec0faddae1871bcda358828b463a14178a4dbd/src/utils.lisp#L70-L120 2017-10-07T19:50:57Z MoritaShinobu quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-07T19:54:28Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-07T19:55:10Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:55:16Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-07T19:55:28Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:56:51Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-07T19:58:59Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-07T19:59:24Z babalua joined #lisp 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Guest59280 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T04:43:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-08T04:43:08Z Bike: i think that's some emacs decision 2017-10-08T04:43:12Z Bike: maybe it's configurable? 2017-10-08T04:43:35Z Guest59280 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T04:44:02Z Guest59280 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T04:46:35Z Guest59280 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T04:47:00Z Guest59280 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T04:47:20Z Guest59280 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T04:48:08Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T04:49:10Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-08T04:54:04Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T04:55:13Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:06:08Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-08T05:07:34Z arrdem joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:09:23Z _krator44 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T05:10:24Z manny8888 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-08T05:11:50Z manny8888 joined #lisp 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I want to install it on my local Emacs. 2017-10-08T05:28:04Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:30:45Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:32:17Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-08T05:33:12Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T05:36:07Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T05:37:18Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:41:21Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T05:42:35Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T05:45:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:48:31Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T05:49:23Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:52:03Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:52:12Z manny8888_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-08T05:53:54Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T05:55:19Z krasnal quit (Quit: Wychodzi) 2017-10-08T05:56:02Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:01:03Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:05:30Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T06:13:30Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T06:13:39Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T06:14:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T06:14:57Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:15:06Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:15:28Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T06:18:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T06:19:27Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:27:28Z kev1n joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:33:47Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T06:34:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T06:34:52Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:36:29Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:37:06Z Shinmera: vtomole: https://github.com/portacle/emacsd/blob/master/portacle-window.el#L16 2017-10-08T06:38:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T06:39:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:42:08Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-08T06:43:47Z vtomole: Shinmera: Thanks! 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https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl/tree/pack-iterative-hopefully-final and report whether/how much times improve? thanks in advance 2017-10-08T15:35:33Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-08T15:36:46Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:39:55Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:40:46Z trafaret1 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:40:53Z trafaret1: hello there 2017-10-08T15:41:53Z trafaret1: I just newbie in programming and I have question. I find emacs very suitable for programming and I see how powerfull it might be. But need I learn elisp to handle with it properly? 2017-10-08T15:43:58Z jackdaniel: trafaret1: you don't need to learn elisp 2017-10-08T15:44:04Z jackdaniel: for more information join #emacs 2017-10-08T15:44:08Z jackdaniel: this channel is about Common Lisp 2017-10-08T15:44:23Z jackdaniel: I use emacs for years and I know elisp only briefly (and didn't know it at all at first) 2017-10-08T15:44:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T15:44:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:44:57Z pmetzger: there is an #emacs channel. 2017-10-08T15:45:18Z jackdaniel: I'm sure I've mentioned it at some point of time :) 2017-10-08T15:45:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-08T15:47:37Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:48:39Z trafaret1: what is the diffrence between lisp and mathematica languages. I just know it is functional programming languages. Are they interchangable? 2017-10-08T15:48:44Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T15:48:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T15:49:17Z trafaret1: and that would be perspective to learn? 2017-10-08T15:49:23Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:50:24Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:50:35Z Fare: trafaret1, many differences, and some similarities 2017-10-08T15:50:36Z jackdaniel: mathematics are more declarative than functional. Common Lisp is multi-paradigm programming language and the most dominant approach atm is OOP 2017-10-08T15:50:53Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T15:51:01Z jackdaniel: minion: tell trafaret1 about gentle 2017-10-08T15:51:01Z minion: trafaret1: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2017-10-08T15:51:20Z Fare: mathematica is based on some generalized rewrite logic, whereas Common Lisp is based on the more narrowly defined rewrites of the lambda calculus 2017-10-08T15:52:19Z Fare: Common Lisp also has older roots with lots of low-level side-effects and quirks, and a low-level namespacing mechanism. 2017-10-08T15:52:28Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:52:43Z Fare: mathematica usually works without namespacing; they do have some namespacing mechanism, but I've never seen or used it. 2017-10-08T15:53:30Z Fare: has the mathematica core language been open sourced yet? wolfram said he was working on it and it should be complete this year 2017-10-08T15:53:57Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-08T15:54:44Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-08T16:01:17Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T16:01:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:06:14Z Annatar joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:06:46Z Annatar: Greetings, anyone currently active? 2017-10-08T16:07:25Z jackdaniel: of course 2017-10-08T16:07:30Z jackdaniel: what's up? 2017-10-08T16:08:21Z Annatar: I have a question regarding the getopt lisp module... I am just at the beginning of learning LISP, and could not find any documentation or examples on how to use it. I use Clozure LISP (CCL). 2017-10-08T16:08:50Z Fare: I recommend didier verna's clon instead, for full feature, or my command-line-arguments for a simple solution 2017-10-08T16:08:57Z Annatar: Tried understanding the code, but as I do not know enough LISP yet, reverse-engineering has proven... challenging. 2017-10-08T16:09:10Z Fare: didier has a LOT of documentation. 2017-10-08T16:09:14Z Annatar: clon was even more confusing. 2017-10-08T16:09:30Z jackdaniel: it is not LISP, but Common Lisp 2017-10-08T16:09:50Z Annatar: Some context would probably help here... I am well versed with getopts(3C) in C and getopts in shell. 2017-10-08T16:10:32Z jackdaniel: clon is a very good tool to process cli arguments 2017-10-08T16:10:59Z jackdaniel: here you can find documentation and reference manual: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php 2017-10-08T16:11:01Z SaganMan: is there any website which is like clisp reference? 2017-10-08T16:11:35Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:13:02Z Annatar: So the consensus then is clon for command line options parsing? 2017-10-08T16:13:38Z jackdaniel: there will never be consensus, but it is a good library 2017-10-08T16:15:18Z Annatar: Thank you for the clues and the link, I will give clon another look. You ladies and gentlemen don't mind if I pop in from time to time to ask what could probably be described trivial questions under the best of circumstances? 2017-10-08T16:16:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:17:03Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:17:05Z kilimanjaro: love pop ins 2017-10-08T16:17:58Z Annatar: Much obliged, and off I go to read the documentation. 2017-10-08T16:18:13Z kilimanjaro: I've heard clojure described as "not feeling lispy" (rough paraphrase). For any of you who share (or disagree) with this sentiment, would you care to comment? 2017-10-08T16:18:42Z Annatar mumbles a spell and vanishes in a puff of smoke. 2017-10-08T16:18:45Z Annatar quit 2017-10-08T16:19:16Z sjl: Clojure doesn't feel like Common Lisp. As to whether it feels "Lispy", that depends on what the person means by Lispy I guess. 2017-10-08T16:19:32Z kilimanjaro: sure 2017-10-08T16:19:43Z kilimanjaro: sjl: have you worked with it? 2017-10-08T16:19:43Z sjl: To me "Lispy" has become a word like "roguelike". Is Nethack a roguelike? Yes. Is FtL a roguelike? eh... maybe? 2017-10-08T16:19:56Z sjl: kilimanjaro: yes, I did a bunch of stuff in Clojure before moving to Common Lisp 2017-10-08T16:20:02Z kilimanjaro: Ah 2017-10-08T16:20:05Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:20:38Z sjl: ##lisp is probably a better topic if you're just interested in how Clojure compares to other lisps in general, as opposed to specifically Common Lisp 2017-10-08T16:20:41Z sjl: er 2017-10-08T16:20:46Z sjl: a better channel for the topic 2017-10-08T16:20:46Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T16:21:43Z kilimanjaro: I guess I imagine common lisp as being sort of the "cream of the crop" of dynamic languages, between clos, the condition system, SLIME, etc, and have the impression that for many people who worked with CL a lot and moved to clojure that there was something lost in that transition 2017-10-08T16:22:30Z kilimanjaro: But I'm not that experienced with either and I can't tell if it would be more of an issue of the JVM being a frustrating place to live, or other aspects of the language design, etc 2017-10-08T16:22:40Z sjl: They're different languages. You lose some things and gain others no matter which direction you go. Asking in here you'll probably find people predisposed to liking CL more. 2017-10-08T16:22:53Z kilimanjaro: Yes, that was my intent :p 2017-10-08T16:23:35Z kilimanjaro: I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just curious about what CL-lovers think, if they have experience with both 2017-10-08T16:23:45Z sjl: Coming to CL from Clojure, it was refreshing to have mutability embraced when I want to use it, and it is a bit frustrating that the immutable side of things is fragmented into various libraries with different interfaces/documentation/etc. 2017-10-08T16:24:42Z trafaret1 left #lisp 2017-10-08T16:24:44Z sjl: like, if I want immutable persistent data structures, do I use cl-hamt? fset? sycamore? 2017-10-08T16:25:05Z sjl: some cocktail of all of them? no matter what I pick, it's not gonna fit in with the core language super well. 2017-10-08T16:26:19Z kilimanjaro: i see 2017-10-08T16:29:41Z Fare: there were things I loved about Clojure, and things I hated 2017-10-08T16:30:14Z sjl: ^^ that 2017-10-08T16:30:17Z Fare: loved: pure data structures by default, cheap maps and sets, invisible meta field 2017-10-08T16:31:18Z Fare: loved: concurrency story, some good ideas about protocols 2017-10-08T16:32:48Z Fare: hated: overall poor object oriented features / integration, very poor backtraces, slow startup and slow compile, quirks with AOT compilation and discrepancies vs interpreted code 2017-10-08T16:33:50Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T16:34:00Z Fare: with Clojure I felt both like there was something liberating at a concrete level (especially compared to other JVM languages) and yet a relatively low abstraction ceiling (compared to CL, not to talk about Haskell & al.) 2017-10-08T16:34:35Z Fare: sjl: I use lisp-interface-library for immutable persistent data structures 2017-10-08T16:34:50Z Fare: of course, it could use some love and more data structures. 2017-10-08T16:35:21Z sjl: Fare: and as the readme says, a manual 2017-10-08T16:35:24Z sjl: :) 2017-10-08T16:35:33Z kilimanjaro: I use a combo of python & scala for work, so once I got a whiff of clojure I started drooling 2017-10-08T16:35:48Z Fare: yeah well, I did announce that I'm moving my Lisp activity to Gerbil, did I not? 2017-10-08T16:36:06Z sjl: yeah 2017-10-08T16:36:11Z Fare: expect a port of lil to gerbil rather than more development on the CL side on my part --- but I will take patches and help new maintainers 2017-10-08T16:36:12Z sjl: so probably no manual forthcoming 2017-10-08T16:36:27Z Fare: not one that *I* will write 2017-10-08T16:36:43Z sjl: I feel like I've looked at LIL before and tried to understand it, but was too dumb to do so 2017-10-08T16:37:11Z Fare: if I were to work in that space, I'd probably develop the linear lisp that lil suggests will make mutable and immutable styles isomorphic. 2017-10-08T16:38:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:38:26Z Fare: sjl: I admit I never spent enough time to make it usable to newbies. It was a 20% project, the 80% project ended up being cancelled before lil proved useful, etc. 2017-10-08T16:38:45Z Fare: sjl: but lil isn't THAT hard either. 2017-10-08T16:38:50Z sjl: maybe I'll print out the PDF linked there and read it while I update this laptop, which is now two OS versions behind 2017-10-08T16:39:31Z sjl: Fare: it just seems like there's a layer of abstraction on top of it that goes beyond what most other libraries provide, and without understanding that it's hard to grok the entire system 2017-10-08T16:39:34Z Fare: once you get the idea of interface-passing style, it's quite easy; then there's how the library is organized, that is a bit under-documented. 2017-10-08T16:39:53Z Fare: sjl: you definitely need to read the accompanying paper. 2017-10-08T16:39:56Z sjl: yeah, that's the thing I'm talking about 2017-10-08T16:40:14Z sjl: "What is interface-passing style" is probably something I need to learn before understanding LIL. 2017-10-08T16:40:27Z Fare: definitely 2017-10-08T16:40:36Z Fare: I think the paper is entertaining, but then again I wrote it. 2017-10-08T16:40:44Z sjl: is https://common-lisp.net/~frideau/lil-ilc2012/lil-ilc2012.html the place to learn that? 2017-10-08T16:40:49Z sjl: wait, that's just the paper in html form 2017-10-08T16:42:39Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:44:52Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-08T16:47:16Z kilimanjaro: Fare: can you elaborate just a bit re: your comment on clojure having a low abstraction ceiling? 2017-10-08T16:52:49Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2017-10-08T16:56:27Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-08T16:58:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:01:21Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T17:01:51Z Fare: kilimanjaro, between complexity of protocols or user-defined types, limitations of the macro system, the fiasco of not offering the proper hooks for typed clojure, etc., I feel like Clojure is not offering a good environment for the kind of higher abstractions you can do with e.g. haskell typeclasses. 2017-10-08T17:02:22Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:02:26Z Fare: at least in CL, cheap ad hoc polymorphism makes lil quite pleasant. 2017-10-08T17:02:50Z Fare: and debugging with SLIME makes type errors more bearable. 2017-10-08T17:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T17:04:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T17:04:52Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:08:17Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T17:08:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:08:40Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:08:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T17:09:23Z Fare: kilimanjaro, what do you think? 2017-10-08T17:09:26Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:10:06Z Fare: also, things like multiple arities with very different types make for a very nice "practical" feeling, but a very hard to abstract away interface. 2017-10-08T17:10:34Z kilimanjaro: well, like I said, I don't have much experience with either, but the most resonating thing for me is your comment about SLIME making type errors more bearable 2017-10-08T17:11:28Z kilimanjaro: the penalty for some dumb mistake in code running on the jvm seems much higher, both in terms of the time needed to figure out what is going on (e.g. the enormous stack trace) as well as making corrections and reloading code 2017-10-08T17:11:42Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T17:14:13Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:14:28Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:14:31Z miatomi: lsblk 2017-10-08T17:16:53Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T17:17:08Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-08T17:19:25Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:19:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T17:20:35Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T17:21:01Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:24:02Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T17:24:28Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:26:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:28:17Z kilimanjaro: Fare: i don't know if you caught the last few messages i sent 2017-10-08T17:29:19Z kilimanjaro: anyways, the gist of it is that from my experience the penalty for dumb mistakes in a dynamic language is proportional to both how easy it is to diagnose them and how easy it is to correct them without disrupting the rest of the session or computation 2017-10-08T17:29:22Z kilimanjaro: CL is very good about both 2017-10-08T17:30:02Z kilimanjaro: working with jvm stack traces (as you mentioned) is pretty unpleasant and already starts to penalize dynamic languages in that sense 2017-10-08T17:30:42Z kilimanjaro: at my work we end up doing a lot with spark and this adds an extra level of unpleasantness, to the point where I think something like scala (which we use), despite being very heavy, is probably the right choice 2017-10-08T17:36:03Z bigdaddytank quit (Quit: Peace out!) 2017-10-08T17:38:24Z shka: Fare: what are typed closures? 2017-10-08T17:38:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T17:39:24Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:39:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T17:39:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:40:52Z shka: http://typedclojure.org/ 2017-10-08T17:40:53Z shka: that? 2017-10-08T17:41:14Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:43:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T17:44:24Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T17:46:32Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-08T17:46:43Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T17:58:30Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T17:59:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T17:59:53Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:03:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T18:05:21Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-08T18:06:34Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:07:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:10:25Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:10:59Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T18:13:06Z jibanes joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:14:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T18:14:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:15:24Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:15:36Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T18:22:44Z MrBusiness3 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:23:59Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T18:24:23Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:26:03Z Fare: shka: yes 2017-10-08T18:26:25Z Fare: kilimanjaro, I have ideas on how to make debugging uniformly more bearable including on the JVM 2017-10-08T18:26:36Z Fare: see my thesis https://j.mp/FarePhD 2017-10-08T18:29:17Z jackdaniel: \o/ ECL has implemented virtual streams handled by ext:run-program (that means, that gray stream may be used as :output argument) – cleaning up code now 2017-10-08T18:30:07Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:30:56Z Shinmera didn't even know that that wasn't possible on some implementations 2017-10-08T18:31:58Z jackdaniel: for instance sbcl ignores gray streams when :wait is nil 2017-10-08T18:32:28Z jackdaniel: either way, it is not a trivial problem because gray streams doesn't have file descriptors which could be attached to process 2017-10-08T18:32:40Z jackdaniel: so there must be implemented a piping of some kind 2017-10-08T18:32:47Z Shinmera: Wait, actually, I did know. That's why I wrote a library that does copying in the background to allow using other kinds of streams. 2017-10-08T18:33:03Z Shinmera: I wish I actually knew all that I know. 2017-10-08T18:33:06Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-08T18:34:49Z whoman: =) 2017-10-08T18:36:49Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T18:39:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T18:39:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:47:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-08T18:47:56Z kilimanjaro: Fare: cool, I'll take a look 2017-10-08T18:51:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T18:51:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T18:52:33Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:53:51Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-10-08T18:55:45Z rumbler31: Ok what? 2017-10-08T18:58:25Z rumbler31: jackdaniel: help me understand the significance of what you're talking about 2017-10-08T19:01:10Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:02:10Z jackdaniel: rumbler31: you may for instance do (with-output-to-string (s) (ext:run-program "ls" nil :output s)) what wasn't possible before 2017-10-08T19:02:37Z jackdaniel: some badly written libraries depend on that, so they can gather system information etc 2017-10-08T19:03:08Z jackdaniel: (badly written in this regard, because this assumption doesn't always hold) 2017-10-08T19:03:38Z shka: Fare: what is even the point of this? 2017-10-08T19:03:59Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T19:04:04Z shka: or how does that compares to CL type declarations 2017-10-08T19:04:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:04:39Z shka: because you can set ftype and also type of passed callback 2017-10-08T19:07:41Z bwv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T19:09:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T19:09:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:10:15Z rumbler31: jackdaniel: so what made the stream activity in ext:run-program special in that it *wouldn't* work with the stream created by w-o-t-s, that is now different and made to work the way you expect? 2017-10-08T19:10:36Z rumbler31: or rather, why didn't that work, and now, why does it 2017-10-08T19:11:12Z jackdaniel: I have mentioned that: virtual streams doesn't have a descriptor 2017-10-08T19:11:26Z jackdaniel: so you have nothing to attach to a newly created process and magic doesn't happen 2017-10-08T19:11:53Z jackdaniel: I had to write an in-memory piping 2017-10-08T19:13:21Z rumbler31: I know you said that virtual streams don't have a descriptor above, but if using a stream created by w-o-t-s wouldn't work with the run-program call, what kinds of streams were expected to work? 2017-10-08T19:13:46Z rumbler31: oh, I guess, a stream backed by a file? 2017-10-08T19:14:00Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T19:14:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:14:47Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-08T19:15:41Z jackdaniel: stream with a descriptor. For instance console i/o 2017-10-08T19:16:23Z Guest43159 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-08T19:16:24Z jackdaniel: or freshly created streams for process invocation purposes (default) 2017-10-08T19:16:36Z rumbler31: oh hmm 2017-10-08T19:16:41Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:17:19Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:20:08Z rumbler31: thanks for the explanation, I don't usually find myself working in those layers and I'd like to learn more. I'd be interested in reading your commit 2017-10-08T19:21:03Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:21:26Z PuercoPop is now known as Guest18570 2017-10-08T19:27:31Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:28:33Z kilfer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T19:29:52Z basket joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:32:33Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T19:33:48Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:33:49Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T19:33:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-08T19:34:02Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:38:10Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:44:26Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2017-10-08T19:44:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T19:44:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:47:30Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:48:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T19:49:27Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T19:50:09Z pmetzger quit 2017-10-08T20:02:17Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T20:02:30Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:07:00Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:07:45Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-08T20:07:45Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-10-08T20:14:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T20:14:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:19:50Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T20:21:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:23:01Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-08T20:23:02Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-08T20:23:42Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:25:04Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:27:51Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T20:28:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:28:59Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T20:29:15Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T20:29:26Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:30:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:30:28Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T20:31:51Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-08T20:31:54Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-08T20:32:36Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T20:32:50Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:32:57Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:35:46Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T20:36:49Z jmercouris: why is documentation in the common lisp community so bad? 2017-10-08T20:36:50Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe_: https://github.com/brown/swank-client https://github.com/eudoxia0/swank-protocol 2017-10-08T20:38:06Z jmercouris: phoe_: aha, very interesting, swank-protocl is exactly what I needed!!! thanks! 2017-10-08T20:41:11Z sjl: jmercouris: I don't know. My only solution so far has been to try to document the stuff I release as well as possible, to be the change I want to see in the world. 2017-10-08T20:42:58Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Because you aren't writing the docs. 2017-10-08T20:44:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T20:44:52Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:46:23Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-08T20:46:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:48:23Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:48:52Z aijony joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:48:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T20:49:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:53:15Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:54:19Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-08T20:59:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T20:59:52Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:00:01Z pjb: jmercouris: it's so bad because it's so good: it's docstrings! 2017-10-08T21:02:08Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T21:06:53Z jmercouris: sjl: Yeah, that's a good strategy, I try to do the same 2017-10-08T21:07:08Z jmercouris: Shinmera: what do you mean? 2017-10-08T21:07:22Z jmercouris: pjb: But many of them don't even have documentation in the code 2017-10-08T21:08:28Z Shinmera: jmercouris: The line of questioning that goes along the lines of "Why is the lisp community not doing X" always irks me because it implies you'd like to force other people to do what you want. This never works. All you can bet on is what you do on your own. Thus, if you don't like the current situation, /you/ do something about it. If you don't like the (lack of) documentation on a project, go fix it. 2017-10-08T21:08:57Z |3b|: and then watch as the next bunch of people comes in and complains it doesn't look modern enough :p 2017-10-08T21:08:59Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T21:09:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:10:57Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T21:12:08Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:14:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T21:14:46Z margeas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T21:16:49Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:17:05Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:17:28Z Shinmera: Anyway, I think the perception of the state of documentation is biased against Lisp. For one, there's so few libraries that the chance of there being multiple libraries for a task is relatively slim. This in turn means the chance for a documented and tested library for a topic to exist is slim as well. Then there's the argument that writing a library in any other language incurs so much effort that 2017-10-08T21:17:31Z Shinmera: documentation at the end of it seems trivial or almost required because you already spent so much time writing the rest. 2017-10-08T21:18:14Z Shinmera: Given that, I doubt that, if we compare the state of documentation against other ecosystems and account for the numerical differences, Lisp would stand out as particularly bad. 2017-10-08T21:19:11Z Shinmera: Either way, complaining about it helps absolutely nobody, so you'd be doing everyone else a favour by doing literally anything else. 2017-10-08T21:19:22Z |3b|: well, there is probably some difference due to domain of experience, like JS or PHP dev being more likely to be (or at least know) web devs 2017-10-08T21:19:47Z aeth: Most Lisp libraries are done by one person as a hobby. The well-documented projects are usually either done by more than one person, or done by one person who uses it in their job. 2017-10-08T21:19:48Z |3b|: so for example you see more pretty documentation with a lack of project there :) 2017-10-08T21:20:41Z aeth: and, yeah, web dev stuff tends to be well documented because you just put the documentation on the web 2017-10-08T21:21:22Z aeth: Look at languages that aren't very web-focused. e.g. C and C++ projects often have terrible documentation. 2017-10-08T21:21:50Z aeth: Probably written once in 2003 on Sourceforge in plain HTML. 2017-10-08T21:22:22Z Shinmera: doxygen.html 2017-10-08T21:23:59Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T21:24:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:24:52Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:26:18Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I've never told anyone what to do with their project. I understand your sentiment though. 2017-10-08T21:26:44Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Your question hints at the desire to do so. 2017-10-08T21:27:02Z jmercouris: I think something that's important in life is giving people the benefit of the doubt, and taking things at face value 2017-10-08T21:27:19Z jmercouris: I only asked the question "why is the documentation so bad" 2017-10-08T21:27:54Z jmercouris: At any rate, asking the question is not complaining, it is a sincere question that has a very real value 2017-10-08T21:28:21Z jmercouris: If somebody responded with information such as "because x, y, z" they could either justify it, or explain its cause, and then it might possibly be remedied 2017-10-08T21:28:26Z Shinmera: The answer to that question is easy: because people don't want to do it. It takes time and effort. 2017-10-08T21:28:38Z jmercouris: Shinmera: that is NOT the answer to that question 2017-10-08T21:28:43Z jmercouris: that is a very simplistic view of things 2017-10-08T21:28:45Z p_l: and bad documentation can be worse than none 2017-10-08T21:28:50Z jmercouris: you might wonder why in other communities the situation is different 2017-10-08T21:28:54Z Shinmera: jmercouris: It is the answer, though. 2017-10-08T21:29:03Z jmercouris: and yet, the laziness of people is probably relatively consistent across languages 2017-10-08T21:29:20Z jmercouris: That's a literal answer, but not THE answer, you have to abstract one more layer up 2017-10-08T21:29:20Z p_l: jmercouris: popular libraries in most other communities benefit from economies of scale 2017-10-08T21:30:07Z jmercouris: p_l: this is true, definitely more people power = more likely to have documentation 2017-10-08T21:30:23Z p_l: most libs with good documentation have often an order of magnitude larger dev team 2017-10-08T21:30:48Z p_l: whereas with CL, modt libs appear to be one man shows 2017-10-08T21:31:08Z p_l: single people who still need to eat 2017-10-08T21:31:28Z jmercouris: That makes sense 2017-10-08T21:31:34Z Shinmera: And who have shifting interests. Documenting is boring and menial. 2017-10-08T21:31:45Z jmercouris: Documenting is not boring nor menial, perhaps to yourself 2017-10-08T21:32:02Z jmercouris: Documentation is one of THE most important things in a codebase, and it's probably a cylic thing 2017-10-08T21:32:13Z jmercouris: You find a library online, has poor documentation, hard to get started with, so you write your own 2017-10-08T21:32:18Z Shinmera: Have you considered the possibility that your opinion is in the minority? 2017-10-08T21:32:27Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-08T21:32:29Z jmercouris: Shinmera: likewise 2017-10-08T21:32:44Z p_l: jmercouris: and yet documentation is routinely shit on whenever money is on the table, especially by managers telling to write it 2017-10-08T21:33:00Z p_l: Developers DO NOT write GOOD documentation 2017-10-08T21:33:16Z jmercouris: p_l: Yeah, that is true, but it is very short sighted to not write good documentation 2017-10-08T21:33:27Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Do a survey on it and get back to me. 2017-10-08T21:33:37Z p_l: it's very, very rare that someone has the right inclinations to make good documentation 2017-10-08T21:33:46Z p_l: I know I don't 2017-10-08T21:33:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:34:07Z jmercouris brb making survey :P 2017-10-08T21:34:25Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T21:34:25Z scymtym: i think a good basis for this discussion would have been stating what "good" and "bad" entails w.r.t. documentation 2017-10-08T21:34:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T21:34:45Z jmercouris: yeah, that's also true, without some basic axioms, we can't really discuss 2017-10-08T21:34:55Z p_l: in my professional work, the reality was that documentation was a task in which managers would figuratively shit on devs with "you have 3 days, and I still expect the tasks we planned for those 3 days to be done" 2017-10-08T21:35:00Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:35:13Z jmercouris: p_l: 100% I know what you mean 2017-10-08T21:36:21Z p_l: so... if you want good documentation, either somehow find a way to involve people (opensource programming projects usually don't have lot of success there) or fund it 2017-10-08T21:38:03Z aeth: jmercouris: If you want people to use Lisp, make something people want to use. Documentation is not the key issue here. 2017-10-08T21:38:37Z p_l: I can't recall any case that wasn't crazy outlier where good docs happened without money. Getting people is outlier, too 2017-10-08T21:38:47Z marcux quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-08T21:39:03Z Shinmera: I don't know if my docs qualify as good. I just write them because I fear the wrath of other people. 2017-10-08T21:39:20Z aeth: What gets people to use a language is that that language solves a problem hat they need solved. People do not use Ruby because of its documentation, they use Ruby because of Rails. etc. 2017-10-08T21:39:44Z aeth: Sure, Ruby probably has better documentation on average than Common Lisp, but Rails probably came first, and it probably wasn't that well-documented at first. 2017-10-08T21:39:45Z Shinmera: aeth: You can't solve a problem if you don't know how => documentation 2017-10-08T21:39:55Z p_l: aeth: except Python, people use Python because of docs ;-) 2017-10-08T21:40:21Z aeth: p_l: People use Python because it's either the easiest language in the world or the hardest, depending on if you mind the indentation rules or not. 2017-10-08T21:41:13Z p_l: aeth: I, and many other people I know, started Python because the bundled docs contained full language tutorial AND docs for all the batteries included 2017-10-08T21:41:50Z Shinmera: Part of what I really liked about Java, too, was that the javadocs are really extensive. 2017-10-08T21:41:52Z p_l: the language itself was ultimately irrelevant, and tbh later on with less need for crutches I dropped it 2017-10-08T21:42:25Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:43:59Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T21:44:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:47:21Z alexmlw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T21:48:11Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-08T21:49:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T21:49:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T21:49:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T21:51:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I find javadocs to be nearly unusable 2017-10-08T21:51:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I agree in general: the reason why I got into Python in the first place was that it had excellent documentation for its standard library 2017-10-08T21:53:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, is there any way to signal a style-warning at compile time in a conforming program? Do I just check for the condition I want to enforce and then throw a signal in my macro? 2017-10-08T21:54:36Z phoe_: fiddlerwoaroof: sounds like it, yes. 2017-10-08T21:54:39Z Shinmera: You'll probably want to sub-condition style-warning, since the type does not carry a message, otherwise. 2017-10-08T21:54:48Z phoe_: clhs style-warning 2017-10-08T21:54:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_style_.htm 2017-10-08T21:54:54Z Shinmera: But essentially, yes. 2017-10-08T21:55:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks 2017-10-08T21:55:31Z Shinmera: Also, you don't throw a signal. You throw to a tag, and you signal a condition. 2017-10-08T21:56:18Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-08T21:58:59Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T21:59:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T21:59:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:00:31Z micro_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T22:02:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've been writing too much Java recently 2017-10-08T22:02:25Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-08T22:06:05Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T22:08:01Z karswell_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-08T22:08:37Z p_l: a lot of javadoc is generated from docstrings, and the quality of those...differs 2017-10-08T22:09:14Z jmercouris: Shinmera: your docs are pretty good IMO, I wish all projects looked like yours 2017-10-08T22:09:23Z jmercouris: I frequently come across repositories that don't even have a readme :D 2017-10-08T22:10:47Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-08T22:14:19Z rumbler31: The documentation in most code I've ever run into has been wrong, or misleading, or doesn't cover the topics I know it handles but need to use it for. In lisp, I load the library and play with the functions till I get a live understanding of what's going on and then move forward. At least for CL though, most libraries that are more complicated that might warrant some documentation seem to have it already, even as doc 2017-10-08T22:14:19Z rumbler31: strings in the function which seems to be enough for me. I've often heard people say "the documentation in this community is bad" and from a sample size of one (myself) I haven't seen it 2017-10-08T22:15:11Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:15:43Z rumbler31: in the c++ community its almost mandatory that documentation exists, because people think there is one version of c++, when there are really easily 5 or more. You need to know how the library is implemented and what platforms or toolchains support the features it relies on. Less so here 2017-10-08T22:17:03Z rumbler31: and live exploring some code is what they call prototyping, and they need it because there doesn't exist a live image workflow. So they end up wiring up all the common parts of any program just to exercise the functionality of a library, the burden of which is experienced less so by the cl community (imho, sample size one) 2017-10-08T22:17:44Z rumbler31: so jmercouris: in good faith, what task do you which to undertake for which you've found documentation lacking? 2017-10-08T22:18:39Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T22:18:57Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Well, I didn't think of a particular instance that brought it up, I was just thinking about lisp in general 2017-10-08T22:20:09Z rumbler31: so you're asking because you've heard it said? or you've experienced it lately but don't necessarily have a specific example? Or a different question, do you think that there is an issue with poor/no documentation? 2017-10-08T22:21:04Z jmercouris: rumbler31: I've experienced it recently 2017-10-08T22:21:35Z jmercouris: I think there is definitely an issue, lisp does that have discoverability, but a brief code example would save a lot of time when evaluating libraries 2017-10-08T22:22:58Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:23:14Z jmercouris: anyways, it was nice talking gotta go for now! 2017-10-08T22:23:27Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T22:25:25Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T22:28:17Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:29:11Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-08T22:34:16Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T22:39:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T22:39:56Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:40:09Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:41:04Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T22:42:59Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-08T22:43:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T22:44:26Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:46:57Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-08T22:47:32Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-08T22:47:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:49:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T22:49:54Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:52:56Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T22:53:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T22:54:24Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T22:54:42Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-08T22:56:05Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:06:30Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:09:00Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:09:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T23:09:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:11:03Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T23:11:10Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:13:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T23:14:28Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:14:29Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T23:16:32Z panji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-08T23:17:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T23:19:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T23:19:54Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:21:31Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:22:47Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:23:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T23:24:27Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:25:02Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-08T23:29:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-08T23:29:54Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:32:25Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-08T23:33:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-08T23:34:25Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-08T23:35:28Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-08T23:49:01Z linoge quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-09T00:13:26Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-09T00:14:02Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:14:36Z stylewarning: Hello folks 2017-10-09T00:19:34Z pillton: G'day. 2017-10-09T00:20:08Z stylewarning: What are you hacking on 2017-10-09T00:20:49Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:21:31Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:22:09Z pillton: I have been mostly doing documentation for template-function and specialization-store. 2017-10-09T00:26:12Z stylewarning: Great!! 2017-10-09T00:26:13Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T00:26:46Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:26:59Z pillton: And trying to decide what to do next. 2017-10-09T00:27:26Z stylewarning: Make some lisp applications:) 2017-10-09T00:27:58Z stylewarning: I think many Lisp programmers are too keen to write libraries. 2017-10-09T00:29:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-09T00:31:02Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:31:16Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:31:24Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:32:10Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:33:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T00:36:12Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:36:35Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:39:28Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T00:39:32Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:39:55Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:40:14Z p_l: I wonder if better availability of tooling to deliver applications, and maybe user interface, would help there 2017-10-09T00:40:47Z p_l: I mean, we have buildapp and the like, but make it into somewhat more coherent thing? 2017-10-09T00:41:06Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:42:20Z stylewarning: p_l I think that’s right 2017-10-09T00:42:50Z p_l: also not everyone wants to make a web app 2017-10-09T00:42:57Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:43:11Z stylewarning: Also just having more examples of how to make and button up a Lisp app would be good 2017-10-09T00:43:20Z stylewarning: LispWorks is good about this 2017-10-09T00:43:59Z Guest45419 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T00:44:05Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:44:06Z stylewarning: It would be nice if Buildapp’s essential functionality was rolled into ASDF 2017-10-09T00:44:10Z _death: "Foreign Type: :long-double This type is only supported on SCL." ugh 2017-10-09T00:44:26Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:44:41Z stylewarning: Where’s that from? _death 2017-10-09T00:44:45Z p_l: _death: is that the 80bit double? 2017-10-09T00:44:47Z _death: cffi manual 2017-10-09T00:45:02Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:45:07Z _death: p_l: yeah (on ordinary systems) 2017-10-09T00:45:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:46:32Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:47:39Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:47:53Z stylewarning: _death: where do you need long-double? 2017-10-09T00:49:10Z _death: just tried autowrapping Torch 2017-10-09T00:49:35Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:51:28Z pillton: LispWorks has Hobbyists licenses now. 2017-10-09T00:51:40Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-09T00:53:09Z _death: (don't really need torch, just wanted a quick look at what kind of issues could a torch bindings writer expect) 2017-10-09T00:55:05Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T00:59:00Z sjl: does Lispworks cross compile, or do you need to buy N licenses, one per platform you want to deliver an executable for (even if you only develop on one)? 2017-10-09T01:00:43Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:03:11Z p_l: sjl: still a license for every platform 2017-10-09T01:04:22Z stnutt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T01:09:14Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-09T01:14:11Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:16:19Z newcoder joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:16:24Z newcoder: (make-string 5 ?x) what is ? here? 2017-10-09T01:17:51Z Bike: uh, what context 2017-10-09T01:17:59Z Bike: make-string with two arguments won't work 2017-10-09T01:20:25Z newcoder: What is '?' there? 2017-10-09T01:20:33Z _death: newcoder: it's elisp syntax for character 2017-10-09T01:22:53Z newcoder: How can we make string in common lisp? 2017-10-09T01:23:11Z Bike: clhs make-string 2017-10-09T01:23:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_stg.htm 2017-10-09T01:23:18Z Bike: character syntax is instead #\Name 2017-10-09T01:25:35Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T01:26:46Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:28:16Z newcoder left #lisp 2017-10-09T01:29:28Z Guest45419 quit (Quit: Guest45419) 2017-10-09T01:29:52Z Guest45419 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:30:23Z Guest45419 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T01:31:53Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:32:21Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:34:01Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T01:36:16Z p_l: stylewarning: I've been toying for some time with idea for "application framework" that would abstract done of important parts which aren't "functional requirements" - like paths to app-specific directories, way to distribute easily native libs with your application, etc 2017-10-09T01:38:38Z p_l: curiously enough, it makes me think of using logical pathnames, at least as argument to merge-pathname 2017-10-09T01:42:41Z searcher joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:45:49Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T01:47:30Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-09T01:52:01Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-09T01:56:45Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T01:59:59Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T02:09:01Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:09:42Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:10:07Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T02:13:25Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T02:16:43Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-09T02:20:17Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:25:03Z slyrus quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-09T02:26:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T02:27:05Z marcux quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-09T02:27:44Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:35:47Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:41:23Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:41:23Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:42:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T02:46:54Z stylewarning: p_l what about illogical-pathnames ? 2017-10-09T02:46:55Z stylewarning: (: 2017-10-09T02:47:38Z stylewarning: p_l http://quickdocs.org/illogical-pathnames/ 2017-10-09T02:47:43Z p_l: don't recall them :-P 2017-10-09T02:48:46Z p_l: hmm 2017-10-09T02:49:09Z p_l: ok, they sound like an option, but I'll probably start with logical ones 2017-10-09T02:53:17Z stylewarning: I recommend against them 2017-10-09T02:53:31Z stylewarning: All-caps names, weird translation rules, wildly non-portable 2017-10-09T02:54:04Z p_l: ultimately, they only need to specify directories for merge-pathnames 2017-10-09T02:54:32Z p_l: the all-caps part might actually help with systems that ignore case 2017-10-09T02:55:01Z stylewarning: If it’s a tool to help apps developers make apps, they might feel like this is more wacky lisp stuff 2017-10-09T02:57:00Z p_l: stylewarning: well, quite possibly the end result will be a set of constants to refer to in code 2017-10-09T02:57:17Z p_l: with helper functions to check out multiple directories 2017-10-09T02:57:43Z stylewarning: I’m interested in what progress you make 2017-10-09T02:59:10Z p_l: we'll see. Recently I had very little time to myself 2017-10-09T02:59:59Z stylewarning: ): 2017-10-09T03:05:32Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-10-09T03:09:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T03:10:06Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-09T03:10:51Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-09T03:12:26Z basket: Hello beach 2017-10-09T03:12:55Z p_l: beach: morning! 2017-10-09T03:28:27Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T03:33:26Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T03:49:24Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-09T03:49:45Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-09T03:51:35Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-09T03:54:44Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T03:55:22Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-09T03:55:28Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:01:21Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T04:01:47Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T04:01:59Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T04:08:05Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-09T04:08:19Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T04:08:57Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:12:44Z xayto quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-09T04:13:03Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:14:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T04:14:03Z iqubic quit 2017-10-09T04:22:23Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T04:31:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:34:52Z vsync: is there a quick and easy way to see where quicklisp/asdf thinks a system definition lives? 2017-10-09T04:36:08Z beach: vsync: On your local system? 2017-10-09T04:37:17Z vsync: yes 2017-10-09T04:37:19Z vtomole: asdf:*central-registry* variable 2017-10-09T04:37:25Z beach: (asdf:find-system ) and you can inspect the result 2017-10-09T04:37:33Z vsync: ah thanks beach 2017-10-09T04:37:44Z vsync had gotten a little stale 2017-10-09T04:39:34Z vtomole: beach: How is second climacs going? 2017-10-09T04:40:06Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:40:38Z beach: vtomole: I am still working on the CST-to-AST system as part of Cleavir. That one is going to be used in Second Climacs so that I can compile top-level forms at typing speed and report problems by highlighting text in the buffer. 2017-10-09T04:41:23Z beach: But I am making great progress. It basically seems to work for correct input. Now I need to put in more error checking and a better way of signaling problems. 2017-10-09T04:48:44Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:49:14Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:56:38Z bigdaddytank quit (Quit: Peace out!) 2017-10-09T04:59:44Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-09T04:59:55Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T05:01:06Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T05:01:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T05:02:07Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T05:10:46Z shka: yo 2017-10-09T05:12:40Z beach: Hello shka. 2017-10-09T05:13:38Z shka: regarding docs 2017-10-09T05:13:48Z shka: writing documentation is HARD 2017-10-09T05:14:01Z shka: especially if you are not so good with english 2017-10-09T05:14:06Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:14:22Z shka: in fact, recently i spend more time working on docs then actually write code 2017-10-09T05:14:55Z shka: and sure, it is a learning process, yet, it is very difficult without guidance 2017-10-09T05:19:17Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:19:30Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T05:26:11Z beach: shka: You should definitely ask for guidance. 2017-10-09T05:26:25Z beach: shka: Several people here are good with proofreading. 2017-10-09T05:26:59Z shka: well, last time i did that i was just slapped with grammar book 2017-10-09T05:27:06Z shka: it was not very encouraging 2017-10-09T05:27:42Z beach: I would be perfectly willing to proofread for you. 2017-10-09T05:28:20Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T05:28:43Z shka: well, i will ask about this once i will iron out text that does not seems to have sense 2017-10-09T05:29:59Z beach: shka: Ask anyway. Some members of a particular language group make systematic mistakes that can be corrected. 2017-10-09T05:30:55Z shka: well, ok 2017-10-09T05:31:00Z shka: here it is: https://sirherrbatka.github.io/cl-data-structures/main.html#2071197507043032227 2017-10-09T05:31:21Z shka: i got to go 2017-10-09T05:32:02Z shka: beach: ideally, i would prefer email with comments over irc messages 2017-10-09T05:33:31Z beach: Fine. 2017-10-09T05:34:34Z shka: i will correct spelling, and eventually get grammar strait so if you can just tell me if you actually understand this text... that would be great 2017-10-09T05:34:51Z beach: Will do. 2017-10-09T05:35:04Z beach: It won't be in the next few minutes. But I will do it. 2017-10-09T05:35:04Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-09T05:35:12Z beach: I may need to be reminded. 2017-10-09T05:35:25Z shka: i am really glad that you want to do it 2017-10-09T05:35:34Z shka: it means a lot to me 2017-10-09T05:35:36Z shka: :-) 2017-10-09T05:35:39Z beach: Pleasure! 2017-10-09T05:36:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:39:09Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:42:02Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:45:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T05:46:53Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:46:53Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2017-10-09T05:46:53Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:47:28Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:51:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T05:55:42Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-09T05:58:07Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:58:37Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-09T05:59:06Z phoe_: beach: I hereby remind you that moore33 has not replied to my mail. 2017-10-09T05:59:25Z phoe_: The one about DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS. 2017-10-09T06:05:31Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-09T06:07:47Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-09T06:07:52Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T06:08:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T06:08:53Z beach: OK, I'll write to him. 2017-10-09T06:09:29Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-09T06:14:35Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-09T06:17:35Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T06:23:52Z SaganMan: hey beach 2017-10-09T06:24:31Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T06:30:20Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T06:37:18Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-09T06:48:21Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T06:49:51Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T06:52:28Z Shinmera: p_l: Regarding deployment: https://shinmera.github.io/deploy/ 2017-10-09T07:00:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:01:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T07:03:46Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T07:03:59Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T07:09:13Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-09T07:16:15Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:17:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:18:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-09T07:18:35Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T07:19:50Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:23:12Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:34:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:38:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T07:45:29Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T07:47:31Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-09T07:48:45Z p_l: Shinmera: ... I'm impressed and envious of your skills right now :) 2017-10-09T07:51:41Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-09T07:51:53Z Shinmera: p_l: How come? 2017-10-09T07:53:55Z jackdaniel: rumbler31: if you are still interested: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/commit/3043dac56b097d95b7a66fea7f71d40de8101453 (and commits around that) 2017-10-09T07:54:52Z p_l: Shinmera: combination of a) finding a solution to significant part of what you wanted to fix b) general awe in amount of projects, finished or not, you make 2017-10-09T07:55:06Z dim: Shinmera: how easy is it with deploy to support “--self-upgrade” option, by which I mean give the program a path to fresh sources (with a bug fix) and have it load the new sources at startup (monkey patching itself)? 2017-10-09T07:55:49Z Shinmera: dim: It doesn't do that at all, so you'd do that in your own application code. 2017-10-09T07:56:47Z Shinmera: dim: I've been thinking about a library to handle upgrades, but I can't say when I'll get to it. Might be years. 2017-10-09T07:57:06Z dim: the difficulty that I had with that is ASDF wanting to reload all dependencies from sources, where the ones in the binary are actually fine 2017-10-09T07:57:12Z Shinmera: p_l: I see. All I can say is that I have a lot of free time to use and nothing better to do. 2017-10-09T07:57:28Z dim: I didn't find a way for ASDF to use the already loaded dependencies 2017-10-09T07:57:46Z Shinmera: dim: Ah, so you want ASDF integration too, ok. 2017-10-09T07:58:32Z Shinmera: dim: What you can do in the interim is compute the action plan to load your system ahead of time, which will give you the order in which to load FASLs. That way you don't need to use ASDF at all. 2017-10-09T07:58:49Z Shinmera: dim: It won't work if you add new files, but other than that... 2017-10-09T07:59:36Z dim: I don't explicitely use fasl 2017-10-09T07:59:44Z dim: currently it's all Quickload and buildapp magic 2017-10-09T08:00:18Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T08:00:18Z Shinmera: What I'm saying is: if you know the order in which to load FASLs, all your --self-upgrade option needs to do is, well, load the fasls from a directory in that order. 2017-10-09T08:00:19Z dim: it took me so much efforts to get to a point where my users can `git clone` and `make` and just use pgloader that I'm very worried about changing the build process 2017-10-09T08:00:39Z dim: Shinmera: my users only have the /usr/local/bin/pgloader 2017-10-09T08:00:49Z Shinmera: Yes, so? 2017-10-09T08:00:57Z dim: they know nothing about CL, don't have a nother SBCL/CCL installation, don't have any fasl file, nothing 2017-10-09T08:01:34Z dim: so either they install SBCL, some other bits and then can `git clone` and `make`, or I would like that the integrated compiler within pgloader could be used to monkey patch the binary at startup 2017-10-09T08:01:44Z Shinmera: But you just said that with --self-upgrade you'd give a path to sources to use for patching 2017-10-09T08:02:12Z Shinmera: That's literally the problem you posed to me. 2017-10-09T08:02:21Z dim: yes 2017-10-09T08:02:25Z dim: sources have no fasl 2017-10-09T08:02:39Z dim: you're saying to git commit/push the fasl with the sources? 2017-10-09T08:02:43Z Shinmera: Whether you load a source file or a fasl file doesn't really matter 2017-10-09T08:03:01Z Shinmera: Distributing the fasls for upgrading would just make the bootup a bit faster. 2017-10-09T08:03:32Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T08:03:35Z dim: I see, just for upgrading... but what's the binary compat' of FASL from a platform to another? 2017-10-09T08:03:36Z michalisko quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-09T08:03:36Z Shinmera: Either way, the point is: you can compute the load order ahead of time, and then use that to load your sources without ASDF. 2017-10-09T08:03:51Z Shinmera: Depends on your implementation. Usually the compatibility is: none. 2017-10-09T08:04:01Z dim: yeah 2017-10-09T08:04:04Z Shinmera: SBCL doesn't even like loading FASLs between different SBCL versions. 2017-10-09T08:04:11Z dim: so not the road I'd want to follow ;-) 2017-10-09T08:04:50Z Shinmera: Adding a step to check for fasls and otherwise use compile-file first wouldn't be that big of a deal either. 2017-10-09T08:06:01Z dim: I think I understand what you're saying 2017-10-09T08:06:27Z dim: you can see my earlier failed attempts at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp 2017-10-09T08:06:47Z dim: also a part with cffi libs that I think `deploy` could take care of 2017-10-09T08:11:21Z Shinmera: Here's a quick idea of what I'm talking about: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/672#672 2017-10-09T08:11:50Z Shinmera: If you wrangle the pathnames a bit you can get a nice and clean list of source files that are necessary to load to get your system going. 2017-10-09T08:12:05Z Shinmera: You can then save this list in your binary, and use it to load from a directory at startup. 2017-10-09T08:14:17Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:15:29Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T08:17:28Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:17:58Z mc40 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:18:37Z dim: looks useful thanks! 2017-10-09T08:20:00Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:20:30Z mc40 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T08:21:07Z dim: for pgloader, it gives 715 files ;-) 2017-10-09T08:21:14Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-09T08:22:24Z dim: but it looks easy enough to use that and load only the files I want 2017-10-09T08:22:37Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:22:40Z dim: do you know how to “read” an .asd file with asdf? 2017-10-09T08:22:57Z Shinmera: you LOAD the file. 2017-10-09T08:23:04Z dim: the .asd? 2017-10-09T08:23:07Z Shinmera: yes. 2017-10-09T08:23:33Z Shinmera: asd files are just lisp source files that are loaded in a particular package. 2017-10-09T08:23:57Z dim: nice, I didn't realise that 2017-10-09T08:24:17Z Shinmera: It's a frequent source of frustration, since it makes it hard to analyse the files without executing code. 2017-10-09T08:24:17Z dim: so (load "pgloader.asd") then your loop works 2017-10-09T08:24:19Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:24:40Z dim: I mean from a clean start of the image, but there Quicklisp is loaded... 2017-10-09T08:26:21Z dim: thanks, given that I might be able to fix pgloader --self-upgrade for next release ;-) 2017-10-09T08:26:50Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:26:58Z dim: maybe it should be named --load-from-source "path/to/git/clone" 2017-10-09T08:27:11Z dim: or --monkey-patch-from 2017-10-09T08:30:34Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-09T08:36:43Z DeadTrickster_ is now known as DeadTrickster 2017-10-09T08:38:42Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:39:09Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:44:18Z hajovonta: hi 2017-10-09T08:45:28Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:51:24Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-09T08:52:54Z beach: Hello hajovonta. 2017-10-09T09:06:35Z searcher quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T09:10:27Z forb291 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:11:27Z forb291: hello, has anyone got experience with using pgloader? 2017-10-09T09:12:35Z Shinmera: dim wrote it, so 2017-10-09T09:12:39Z dim: yeah 2017-10-09T09:12:47Z dim: some experience, yeah 2017-10-09T09:12:57Z dim: forb291: how can I help you? 2017-10-09T09:13:52Z forb291: :) ok :) I am trying to use it directly from an sbcl repl without going through the install. Is it possible? Currently, just doing (ql:quickload :pgloader) stops in trying to find the mysql libraries. But I only want it to load some csv into postgres 2017-10-09T09:13:57Z forb291: so tldr is: 2017-10-09T09:14:17Z forb291: caN I use it from repl witout installing other db libs etc? 2017-10-09T09:14:31Z dim: I didn't work on alternative dependencies yes, so you need the full set of supported drivers at the moment 2017-10-09T09:14:46Z dim: the MySQL libs used in pgloader is Qmynd, which is pure-CL, tho 2017-10-09T09:14:54Z dim: so Quicklisp should take care of that 2017-10-09T09:15:06Z dim: MSSQL and SQLite are CFFI based 2017-10-09T09:15:54Z forb291: hmm it doesnt. maybe I will cpy it to local-projects and install the libs myself. I wonder is it easy to map the lisp api from the command line documentation? 2017-10-09T09:16:29Z dim: (ql:quickload "pgloader") should load all the CL dependencies for you 2017-10-09T09:16:34Z dim: what are you doing exactly? 2017-10-09T09:17:08Z dim: the lisp API isn't a straight map, but https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/api.lisp should get you started 2017-10-09T09:17:22Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:17:23Z dim: not very well documented now, as I'm the only CL user of the thing 2017-10-09T09:18:40Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T09:18:57Z forb291: now we are 2 :) 2017-10-09T09:19:21Z searcher joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:19:26Z dim: welcome to the party! ;-) 2017-10-09T09:19:56Z dim: see pgloader:load-data as the main entry point from lisp 2017-10-09T09:20:09Z forb291: ok, I ll get to it. Thanks a lot for the project. Btw, I tried to find a donation link, but I couldn't. Is there any? 2017-10-09T09:20:12Z dim: and use a fresh git clone from github in local-projects 2017-10-09T09:20:17Z dim: not the QL stable distribution 2017-10-09T09:20:33Z dim: I've been working some on the API for lisp users 2017-10-09T09:20:41Z dim: and I don't release often enough 2017-10-09T09:22:43Z forb291: thanks for the tips. Is there any way I can donate? I will be using it heavily. 2017-10-09T09:23:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T09:24:11Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:25:52Z dim: sure, you can buy a Moral Licence at http://pgloader.io/pgloader-moral-license.html 2017-10-09T09:26:15Z schweers: does anyone know if using return-from to escape deep recursion (a few hundred calls deep) is particularly bad for performance? 2017-10-09T09:26:23Z schweers: in sbcl, that is 2017-10-09T09:26:44Z dim: (or https://gumroad.com/l/Octgs as the form doesn't seem to load :/) 2017-10-09T09:28:10Z forb291: thanks a lot :) 2017-10-09T09:29:05Z beach: schweers: I doubt it. It probably removes all stack frames with no unwind-protect by just adjusting the stack and frame pointers. That's how I would implement it anyway. 2017-10-09T09:29:44Z schweers: by “no unwind-protect” you mean frames in which unwind-protect is not used? 2017-10-09T09:29:53Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-09T09:30:30Z schweers: I was wondering if the presence of return-from might make function calls particularly expensive 2017-10-09T09:30:51Z beach: I don't think so. 2017-10-09T09:31:11Z beach: I don't think a return-from alters the call protocol at all. 2017-10-09T09:31:14Z schweers: thanks. Well, then I‘ll have to further investigate what causes bad performance 2017-10-09T09:31:22Z beach: Or, rather, I would be very surprised if it did. 2017-10-09T09:32:22Z beach: Having said that, I don't actually know what SBCL does; only how I would do it myself. I also know that the SBCL maintainers are smart people, so I am guessing that they would have come up with solutions at least as good as mine. 2017-10-09T09:33:17Z schweers: :) 2017-10-09T09:33:58Z beach: Is it a big program? Too big to paste? 2017-10-09T09:34:53Z schweers: hm 2017-10-09T09:35:11Z schweers: whats the preferred paste service around here? 2017-10-09T09:35:13Z schweers: pastebin? 2017-10-09T09:35:20Z beach: minion: lisppaste 2017-10-09T09:35:20Z minion: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 2017-10-09T09:35:27Z schweers: thanks 2017-10-09T09:35:39Z beach: The bot is no longer present, so you have to post the link yourself. 2017-10-09T09:36:31Z schweers: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358103 2017-10-09T09:36:57Z schweers: the code is not very pretty and you can ignore time-into *augmenting-path-time*, its for debugging 2017-10-09T09:37:09Z schweers: its part of an implementation on dinic algorithm 2017-10-09T09:37:55Z schweers: out-edges is pretty much constant-time (well, it depends on how many edges a node has, which is typically only a few) 2017-10-09T09:38:06Z schweers: has-flow-p also has almost constant time 2017-10-09T09:38:13Z schweers: for similar reasons 2017-10-09T09:39:51Z beach: That doesn't leave much, does it? 2017-10-09T09:39:54Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-09T09:40:05Z beach: What is the observed performance problem? 2017-10-09T09:40:28Z schweers: that this function takes ages to run on a large graph 2017-10-09T09:40:50Z beach: Hmm. Did you try the statistical profiler? 2017-10-09T09:41:09Z schweers: if the input is large (I‘m testing it on ~68k vertices) a call to AUGMENTING-PATH usually takes minutes 2017-10-09T09:41:46Z schweers: for some reason directly profiling did not occur to me, no. Don‘t know what made me not do that. 2017-10-09T09:44:01Z beach: I suggest you try that first. It might be something obvious. 2017-10-09T09:45:28Z schweers: I‘m running it now, I can check what the profiler says while its running, right? 2017-10-09T09:45:42Z beach: I don't think so. 2017-10-09T09:45:48Z schweers: hm 2017-10-09T09:45:51Z beach: Did you use the statistical profiler? 2017-10-09T09:45:53Z schweers: yes 2017-10-09T09:46:02Z schweers: (sb-sprof:with-profiling () (time (write-graph))) 2017-10-09T09:46:03Z beach: Then maybe you can. I don't know. 2017-10-09T09:46:07Z schweers: that‘s what I said 2017-10-09T09:47:05Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T09:47:27Z scymtym: not very important, but (time (with-profiling () …)) can eliminate a few things from the profile 2017-10-09T09:47:33Z scymtym: unless the type of the LEVELS array is known somehow, accessing its elements and then doing arithmetic with them is expensive 2017-10-09T09:48:29Z beach: It could be. Do you know the type of the array? 2017-10-09T09:48:52Z schweers: scymtym: expensive enough to explain why it takes more than a weekend to run on 68k vertices? 2017-10-09T09:49:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:49:14Z schweers: I think I did not exactly annotate it anywhere 2017-10-09T09:49:29Z schweers: even if I did, I‘d have to do so in the pasted function, right? 2017-10-09T09:49:55Z beach: schweers: That kind of execution time means some super-linear behavior. It could be intrinsic in your algorithm. I don't fully understand it. 2017-10-09T09:50:05Z scymtym: i can't say anything in terms of your code, but the difference can certainly be an order of magnitude 2017-10-09T09:50:10Z schweers: thats my thought to 2017-10-09T09:51:10Z beach: Can the graph have cycles? 2017-10-09T09:51:20Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:51:22Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:51:24Z schweers: I’ll try to isolate a call to augmenting-path so it will be called once instead of really often in order to do some statistics on it after lunch 2017-10-09T09:51:46Z schweers: beach: yes, but the algorithm only follows edges which descend costs to a set of destination edges 2017-10-09T09:52:00Z schweers: so it /should/ terminate quickly 2017-10-09T09:52:06Z schweers: for small inputs its also really fast 2017-10-09T09:52:06Z beach: I see. 2017-10-09T09:52:17Z schweers: as in: can‘t be meaningfully measured 2017-10-09T09:52:25Z beach: That, too, indicates some super-linear behavior. 2017-10-09T09:52:52Z beach: Probably at least quadratic. 2017-10-09T09:53:31Z schweers: it shouldn‘t though. if it does its a bug in my code 2017-10-09T09:54:02Z schweers: normally the algorithm is quadratic to nodes, but I use a variant which should be faster 2017-10-09T09:54:23Z schweers: I‘ll do some more digging, maybe I‘ll find something 2017-10-09T09:55:49Z scymtym: the way PATH is updated with the return value of the recursive call makes the code hard to understand 2017-10-09T09:55:50Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-09T09:57:20Z schweers: scymtym: I know, its not exactly the most beautiful code I‘ve ever written. Its a port from C++ code 2017-10-09T09:57:38Z schweers: anyway, thanks for the help so far, I‘ll have lunch and then do some more digging 2017-10-09T09:58:23Z schweers: and I guess I should re-write the code to be more understandable 2017-10-09T10:00:33Z forb291: dim it works perfectly, after installing the freetds file. Since the options I need to feed to pgloader are scattered in different places, I used cl-emb to make a command text with my source, target, options, etc, and then feed it to run-commands api. I dont know if I need a true api, since this is very flexible. anyway thanks again for the info 2017-10-09T10:00:54Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T10:02:49Z forb291: the only thing I will try is modularize the loading of dependencies, so they are not all needed to load pgloader 2017-10-09T10:13:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T10:14:47Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T10:19:32Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T10:40:35Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T10:44:20Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T10:45:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-09T10:50:50Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T10:54:53Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:01:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:02:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T11:03:41Z Josh_2: When talking about condition handling, non-local transfer of control means control being moved outside of the current function? 2017-10-09T11:12:13Z jdz: Josh_2: file:///home/jdz/usr/share/doc/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#non-local_exit 2017-10-09T11:12:26Z jdz: Umm, that did not turn out as I wanted. 2017-10-09T11:13:11Z jdz: http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/non-local_exit 2017-10-09T11:13:48Z Josh_2: So leaving the function without a normal return 2017-10-09T11:13:51Z Josh_2: Thanks 2017-10-09T11:14:21Z jdz: Josh_2: just make sure you understand what "normal return" means. 2017-10-09T11:14:30Z jdz: http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/normal_return 2017-10-09T11:15:03Z jdz: The important part is that it does not involve RETURN. 2017-10-09T11:15:12Z jdz: clhs return 2017-10-09T11:15:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_return.htm 2017-10-09T11:16:39Z Josh_2: ty 2017-10-09T11:16:46Z jdz: You're welcome. 2017-10-09T11:18:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:20:00Z jdz: Josh_2: in case of condition handling non-local transfer of control is when the control is explicitly transferred out of the handling construct. 2017-10-09T11:20:12Z jdz: (Trying to use my own words here.) 2017-10-09T11:21:34Z Josh_2: I understand thanks. 2017-10-09T11:25:57Z foom2 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:28:26Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T11:34:29Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T11:36:59Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:37:43Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:48:33Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:48:47Z nowolfer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T11:49:27Z schweers: does sbcl use :type specifiers in DEFCLASS in its type inferencer? or do I have to manually specify the types of slots again in code that uses them? 2017-10-09T11:50:54Z nowolfer joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:52:54Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-09T11:56:26Z phoe_: schweers: #sbcl might be able to answer you better but AFAIK it does not. 2017-10-09T11:57:32Z jdz: schweers: why don't you write some code to see if it does? 2017-10-09T11:57:55Z schweers: I just did, it seems sbcl does not use this information 2017-10-09T11:58:02Z schweers: at least not on accessors 2017-10-09T11:58:17Z jdz: Accessors are generic functions. 2017-10-09T11:59:28Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T11:59:34Z jdz: schweers: what exactly are you trying to accomplish, considering that classes can be redefined at any time? 2017-10-09T11:59:38Z schweers: I know, and now that I think of it, it‘s somewhat obvious to me that this would at least be difficult 2017-10-09T12:00:54Z schweers: I have a class which contains --- among other things --- a simple-array of fixnums. I was naively hoping that using an accessor on an object of this class would let the compiler know what kind of value to expect. But now that I think of it, it might not be possible. 2017-10-09T12:01:07Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-09T12:01:23Z schweers: anyway, as soon as I add (the (simple-array fixnum) (accessor-use obj)) the compiler is happy 2017-10-09T12:04:17Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T12:07:09Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:13:08Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:14:04Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:18:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:18:52Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T12:20:33Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:21:07Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:21:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T12:23:02Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:24:38Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T12:24:42Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:32:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T12:37:02Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T12:52:52Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T12:57:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-09T12:59:13Z rumbler31: jackdaniel: ty 2017-10-09T13:00:17Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T13:01:19Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:14:30Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:14:51Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:15:01Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:16:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:20:44Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-09T13:27:52Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:29:07Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:29:09Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:33:46Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:40:39Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:41:34Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:42:39Z postit quit (Quit: quiting) 2017-10-09T13:44:59Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T13:46:37Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T13:49:12Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T13:58:33Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-09T14:00:13Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:01:42Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:09:28Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:12:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:12:17Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:14:10Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T14:14:10Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-09T14:20:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:20:51Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:21:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T14:25:02Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T14:25:17Z panji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T14:33:23Z cioran89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T14:33:36Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:33:59Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:35:23Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T14:35:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:35:52Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:35:57Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:40:35Z marvin2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T14:40:35Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T14:42:34Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:43:01Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:45:11Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:47:05Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:47:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:48:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T14:50:35Z cioran89_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:51:11Z cioran89_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T14:56:20Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:57:28Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T14:58:24Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:58:25Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-10-09T14:58:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T14:59:17Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T14:59:58Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:00:24Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T15:00:40Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:01:16Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:03:35Z beach: schweers: SBCL uses the type information if you have the right OPTIMIZE settings, or at least it did that in the past. 2017-10-09T15:03:50Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T15:04:34Z beach: Again, the default settings are unfortunate, in my opinion, because most people just leave them that way, and then they are missing out on beter debugging behavior. 2017-10-09T15:04:42Z schweers: beach: for some reason it didn‘t for me, on the contrary: it warned me that it didn‘t have enough type information. But now that I’ve added some hints the warnings disappeared :) 2017-10-09T15:09:03Z beach: Oh, I think I misunderstood, or read too fast. 2017-10-09T15:09:23Z beach: Yes, the type inferencer might not use it. It is checked at runtime though. 2017-10-09T15:10:25Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:12:23Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:12:36Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:13:58Z anonchik joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:14:05Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:14:50Z anonchik quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T15:14:54Z cioran89 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T15:15:02Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:20:19Z forb291 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:21:44Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:23:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:27:58Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:28:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:30:53Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:31:03Z panji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T15:31:21Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:31:46Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T15:32:19Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:32:32Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T15:32:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:42:12Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-09T15:42:18Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:42:34Z abrcdbr joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:42:50Z abrcdbr quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T15:44:03Z Denommus quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T15:44:26Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:45:37Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:47:56Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T15:50:04Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-09T15:51:41Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-09T15:53:48Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-09T16:00:01Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:02:05Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-10-09T16:05:04Z Josh_2: How do I define a condition that needs no slots for an argument passed to a function? 2017-10-09T16:10:35Z beach: I don't even know what that means. 2017-10-09T16:10:51Z Josh_2: Well I'm confused 2017-10-09T16:11:10Z beach: But I am notorious for having a hard time understanding problem descriptions. 2017-10-09T16:11:52Z _rumbler31: beach: can you go into a little more detail on that? I.e. what are the default settings (or what don't they provide), and what do the settings need to be, and how should they be applied? 2017-10-09T16:12:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-09T16:12:48Z beach: _rumbler31: I don't know that much. I just know that I have (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) in my .sbclrc. 2017-10-09T16:13:27Z beach: _rumbler31: And that means I catch things that people using the default settings can't, and I get more information in my backtraces. 2017-10-09T16:14:34Z beach: _rumbler31: But mainly, I am surprised that people don't do this, and instead spend a lot of time trying to find difficult bugs with the default settings. And that has made want the default setting to be different. 2017-10-09T16:14:49Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:15:15Z _rumbler31: So does it just end up, showing more details in backtraces? 2017-10-09T16:15:21Z _rumbler31: and some other things like that I can't think of? 2017-10-09T16:15:37Z beach: It checks types of slots in standard instances. 2017-10-09T16:16:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:16:56Z beach: But showing more detail in backtraces is very valuable. As I recall, there is also more detail about the precise location (in source code) of an error. 2017-10-09T16:18:31Z Josh_2: Well you convinced me already 2017-10-09T16:18:40Z Josh_2: Also I figured out my problem 2017-10-09T16:19:16Z beach: Good. 2017-10-09T16:19:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:22:35Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-09T16:23:46Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:25:18Z Josh_2: I read the papers _death suggested to me on the condition system in CL, and I understand how it works, but not how to actually use it... 2017-10-09T16:25:33Z beach: What seems to be the problem? 2017-10-09T16:26:53Z beach: I mean, a simple use is just to signal an error when your program detects a situation it can not handle. 2017-10-09T16:27:27Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T16:30:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:30:11Z Josh_2: I'm going to go to the gym and then try again. This is getting very frustrating. 2017-10-09T16:30:11Z phoe_: Josh_2: PCL has an example use case for errors while parsing things. 2017-10-09T16:30:32Z Josh_2: phoe_: I've got it open in front of me 2017-10-09T16:30:49Z Josh_2: I'll read it again later 2017-10-09T16:30:56Z phoe_: Good. Tell us which part of that chapter is confusing. 2017-10-09T16:33:17Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:33:27Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:35:15Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:37:39Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T16:38:25Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:38:37Z adamada joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:40:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:40:05Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:40:08Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:40:23Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T16:40:28Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:42:40Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:46:35Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:48:16Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:49:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:53:14Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:54:58Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T16:56:53Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-09T16:57:03Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T17:02:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:02:57Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:04:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:04:21Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T17:04:33Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:04:35Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:05:36Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:14:52Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:15:03Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:16:08Z adamada quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:16:37Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:19:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:20:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:20:38Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-09T17:20:41Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:21:35Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:22:53Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:24:22Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:26:42Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:26:50Z z3t0 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T17:28:09Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:29:27Z adamada joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:30:05Z turkja left #lisp 2017-10-09T17:39:25Z zotan_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:39:25Z zotan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T17:39:41Z zotan_ is now known as zotan 2017-10-09T17:42:13Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:42:42Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:43:18Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T17:44:33Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:46:01Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T17:46:20Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T18:01:21Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-09T18:02:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:03:15Z sjl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T18:03:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:04:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T18:08:43Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T18:09:04Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-09T18:12:22Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T18:13:25Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:22:07Z zachk joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:24:32Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T18:25:31Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:26:00Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:26:57Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T18:28:43Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:29:13Z nchambers joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:29:53Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T18:30:55Z Posterdati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T18:32:10Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T18:32:26Z searcher2 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:33:25Z searcher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T18:33:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:34:01Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T18:36:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:36:12Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T18:41:46Z vsync: what does this mean? "| foo-bar | type-slot, converting FOO to BAR |" on http://www.cliki.net/naming+conventions 2017-10-09T18:43:05Z shka_: vsync: either type-slot (list-stuff) or converting types (like list-to-vector) 2017-10-09T18:43:45Z vsync: yes, i'm not sure what "type-slot" refers to... may not have seen the term before 2017-10-09T18:43:57Z shka_: no 2017-10-09T18:44:03Z shka_: it is 'type'-'slot' 2017-10-09T18:44:05Z Ichimusai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T18:44:16Z shka_: so instead of thing like list-of-stuff you have list-stuff 2017-10-09T18:44:29Z shka_: where list is a type and stuff is actual name 2017-10-09T18:44:43Z phoe_: vsync: example, symbol-package 2017-10-09T18:44:57Z phoe_: this function, when given a symbol, extracts a package that this symbol belongs to, and returns that package 2017-10-09T18:45:23Z phoe_: package-name - accepts a package, returns its name 2017-10-09T18:45:39Z phoe_: generic-function-methods - accepts a generic function, returns all of its method objects 2017-10-09T18:45:44Z phoe_: et cetera, et cetera. 2017-10-09T18:45:52Z vsync: gotcha 2017-10-09T18:47:28Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:50:16Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T18:51:11Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-09T18:56:23Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T19:01:29Z copec: Were there ever any lisp based BBSs back in the day? 2017-10-09T19:01:53Z shka_: define bbs 2017-10-09T19:02:25Z copec: The dial up bulletin board system with various features 2017-10-09T19:02:31Z shka_: ok 2017-10-09T19:02:36Z shka_: i don't know 2017-10-09T19:04:34Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T19:06:26Z emaczen`: do enums in C usually have names? 2017-10-09T19:07:13Z copec: Isn't that the point of enums? 2017-10-09T19:07:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:08:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:08:39Z emaczen`: I'm looking at a C library to use CFFI, and there is no name after the closing } 2017-10-09T19:09:24Z phoe_: actually, emaczen` - C enums don't need to have names 2017-10-09T19:09:39Z phoe_: enum {FOO, BAR, BAZ}; int main () { return 0; } 2017-10-09T19:09:45Z phoe_: this is a valid C program from what it seems. 2017-10-09T19:09:52Z phoe_: but it's also a valid #lispcafe discussion. 2017-10-09T19:09:58Z emaczen`: How do you refer to FOO then? 2017-10-09T19:10:12Z emaczen`: phoe_: I'm doing this because of CFFI 2017-10-09T19:10:50Z Bike: i think the constants get identities of their own 2017-10-09T19:11:00Z Bike: like, you do enum {FOO}; now FOO is defined 2017-10-09T19:11:05Z Ichimusai joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:11:26Z phoe_: enum {FOO = 0, BAR, BAZ}; int main () { return FOO; } 2017-10-09T19:11:34Z phoe_: this is also a valid C constant now. 2017-10-09T19:11:45Z phoe_: but it's a compile-time constant AFAIK. 2017-10-09T19:11:57Z shka_: yes 2017-10-09T19:12:05Z Bike: it's constant either way i think 2017-10-09T19:12:26Z shka_: it makes difference in C++ 2017-10-09T19:12:36Z Bike: jeez 2017-10-09T19:13:46Z shka_: sorry! 2017-10-09T19:13:53Z shka_: i just had to 2017-10-09T19:13:55Z shka_: … 2017-10-09T19:24:04Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-10-09T19:24:08Z adamada quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T19:25:32Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:30:35Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:31:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T19:31:13Z javmx joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:31:31Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T19:31:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:32:35Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:33:39Z vedm_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:34:17Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T19:35:44Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:36:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T19:37:07Z adamada joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:37:17Z JSA_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:38:39Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T19:39:47Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:42:15Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T19:45:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T19:46:00Z vedm_ quit (Quit: vedm_) 2017-10-09T19:47:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:50:16Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:52:00Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:52:46Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-10-09T19:54:31Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T19:54:31Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2017-10-09T20:04:34Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-09T20:05:43Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:15:40Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:16:45Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-09T20:17:25Z dliot joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:18:39Z dliot quit (Quit: dliot) 2017-10-09T20:19:26Z dliot joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:19:42Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T20:19:56Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 2017-10-09T20:20:52Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:21:26Z bwv quit (Quit: bwv) 2017-10-09T20:23:20Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:27:57Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T20:28:08Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:30:21Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-09T20:31:32Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:40:16Z dliot quit (Quit: dliot) 2017-10-09T20:40:41Z dliot joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:41:01Z dliot left #lisp 2017-10-09T20:41:45Z dliot joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:41:54Z dliot quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-09T20:46:43Z emaczen`: I'm using CFFI with opencv and I've defined (defcfun "cvNamedWindow" :int (name :string) (flags :int)), and it will open a window with CCL but not SBCL 2017-10-09T20:46:54Z emaczen`: How can I get it to work with SBCL too 2017-10-09T20:47:06Z emaczen`: I am running OSX 2017-10-09T20:50:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:54:25Z jackdaniel: emaczen`: one thing is that you must call this function from your main thread (starting one) 2017-10-09T20:54:36Z jackdaniel: this is one of nuisances of OSX 2017-10-09T20:54:57Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T20:55:55Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-09T20:57:17Z emaczen`: actually I can't even get it to work with CCL anymore 2017-10-09T20:57:27Z emaczen`: and I do have a macro with-main-thread for CCL 2017-10-09T20:57:50Z emaczen`: what would that look like in SBCL? 2017-10-09T20:58:08Z sjl: https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-main-thread 2017-10-09T20:58:48Z jmercouris: any more recent performance benchmarks than these: http://www.cliki.net/Performance%20Benchmarks? 2017-10-09T20:59:53Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T21:00:12Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: certainly 2017-10-09T21:00:13Z jackdaniel: sec 2017-10-09T21:00:41Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/misc/benchmarks/2016-05-bench-all.html 2017-10-09T21:00:46Z jackdaniel: 2016-05 2017-10-09T21:02:30Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: thank you! 2017-10-09T21:02:48Z jmercouris: I'm not sure what I am reading here 2017-10-09T21:02:57Z jmercouris: is the number a load time? 2017-10-09T21:03:15Z jackdaniel: which number? 2017-10-09T21:03:33Z jmercouris: all of the numbers 2017-10-09T21:03:44Z jmercouris: I understand left = operation, top = implementation 2017-10-09T21:03:54Z jmercouris: is the number therefore like a score where lower = better? 2017-10-09T21:04:20Z jackdaniel: it is execution time of prepared benchmark cases (scaled down) 2017-10-09T21:04:23Z jackdaniel: yes, lower is better 2017-10-09T21:05:06Z jackdaniel: I'm out to sleep, check out cl-bench for details 2017-10-09T21:05:12Z jmercouris: ok, goodnight! 2017-10-09T21:05:12Z jackdaniel: it's on gitlab.common-lisp.net 2017-10-09T21:05:17Z jmercouris: thanks! 2017-10-09T21:05:22Z jackdaniel: sure, good night 2017-10-09T21:05:59Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:08:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:09:14Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T21:10:04Z Tordek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T21:10:13Z Tordek joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:10:30Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:10:32Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T21:12:35Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T21:13:17Z JSA_: hi all, anyone here work on codebases with >10 MLOC? 2017-10-09T21:13:36Z nchambers: yes, but nothing that uses lisp D: 2017-10-09T21:14:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T21:14:23Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:14:32Z JSA_: ah, bummer, this is regarding a common lisp codebase 2017-10-09T21:15:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:17:53Z owstoni joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:18:41Z jmercouris: Is there something similar to the c preprocessor #if for lisp? 2017-10-09T21:20:39Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T21:28:17Z Josh_2: So I have this code http://paste.lisp.org/display/358158 and It currently enters the debugger and lets me choose my restart (division-by-zero-1 ..) however it is written like the example at the top of PCL page 240. I'm a lot confused about this. 2017-10-09T21:28:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T21:29:46Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-09T21:29:56Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-09T21:30:42Z basket: jmercouris: What do you want it for? 2017-10-09T21:32:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:32:34Z jmercouris: basket: to make OS specific directives 2017-10-09T21:32:41Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T21:32:57Z jmercouris: like for example a defmacro that expands to a particular code on OSX and a different one on Linux 2017-10-09T21:33:19Z Josh_2: What do I need to change to make it automatically invoke the restart? 2017-10-09T21:33:42Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:34:46Z gacepa joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:36:36Z basket: jmercouris: You want the #+ read macro, you would use it like #+linux (foo) and foo would be evaluated iff :linux is in *features*, otherwise it's as if it were commented out 2017-10-09T21:39:03Z _death: Josh_2: there are several issues.. you define a DIVISION-BY-ZERO-1 condition, but never signal it.. when the division by zero will occur, a DIVISION-BY-ZERO error will be signaled by lisp.. you use the same name for a restart, which is just confusing; a better name would be, say, RETURN-NIL.. in N-RANDOM, you set up a handler in each iteration, which is unnecessary, you can have it once outside the loop.. you handle DIVISION-BY-ZERO-1 2017-10-09T21:39:03Z _death: conditions, which are, again, not signaled anywhere.. your handler function takes no arguments, but it should take one - the condition object 2017-10-09T21:39:03Z Bike: Josh_2: what is the example? online copy doesn't have page numbering. 2017-10-09T21:42:02Z Josh_2: How do I pass the condition object? 2017-10-09T21:42:21Z Bike: the condition system does that for you 2017-10-09T21:42:30Z Bike: the problem is just that your function doesn't receive it 2017-10-09T21:42:45Z Josh_2: Like I said 2017-10-09T21:42:48Z Bike: the part about the condition not being signaled is really the core problem, though. 2017-10-09T21:43:09Z Josh_2: I'm very confused and there is so much information in this chapter that I'm finding it hard to ask a specific question 2017-10-09T21:43:22Z Bike: what specific example were you trying to copy? 2017-10-09T21:45:52Z Josh_2: If you search for "(invoke-restart " it is the first example with the lambda 2017-10-09T21:46:20Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-09T21:47:06Z Bike: defun log-analyzer? 2017-10-09T21:47:35Z Josh_2: There's a lot of defun log-analyzer, it is the one with the lambda 2017-10-09T21:48:03Z Bike: okay, so it does restart-case around a loop of analyze-log, right? 2017-10-09T21:48:06Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T21:48:26Z Josh_2: Yes 2017-10-09T21:48:46Z _death: uh, no.. 2017-10-09T21:49:01Z Bike: handler-bind around a loop of analyze-log, my mistake 2017-10-09T21:49:05Z Josh_2: No it doesn't it does (handler-bind 2017-10-09T21:49:34Z Bike: analyze-log calls prase-log-file, which calls parse-log-entry 2017-10-09T21:49:40Z Josh_2: _death: at least you are awake. 2017-10-09T21:49:45Z Bike: which, in an error condition, signals MALFORMED-LOG-ENTRY-ERROR 2017-10-09T21:50:05Z Bike: which is the condition handled way up in log-analyzer 2017-10-09T21:50:11Z _death: Josh_2: you see that the lambda function takes one parameter.. 2017-10-09T21:50:14Z Bike: in your code, you signal no conditions 2017-10-09T21:50:24Z Bike: this is the fundamental issue (not that there aren't others) 2017-10-09T21:51:00Z Josh_2: I know there are others problems, I've fixed those on my side. 2017-10-09T21:51:24Z Bike: well this is the main one. if you want to handle a condition, it has to be signaled somewhere 2017-10-09T21:51:38Z jmercouris: basket: got it, thank ou! 2017-10-09T21:52:07Z Bike: you don't signal a condition, you call mod, which can, sometimes, signal a condition 2017-10-09T21:52:21Z Bike: but it's a condition of type DIVISION-BY-ZERO, which you don't refer to 2017-10-09T21:52:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:53:11Z ninegrid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-09T21:53:30Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T21:54:26Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-09T21:55:17Z Josh_2: So I have to manually trigger an error of type division-by-zero-1 2017-10-09T21:56:00Z Bike: uh, i guess 2017-10-09T21:56:09Z Bike: but the easier thing would be to have a handler on DIVISION-BY-ZERO 2017-10-09T21:56:13Z Bike: which is the one mod signals 2017-10-09T21:56:31Z _death: Xach: methinks ql:quickload should accept ql-dist:system objects 2017-10-09T21:57:16Z Josh_2: I'm confused. 2017-10-09T21:57:31Z Bike: about what? 2017-10-09T22:00:25Z Josh_2: Well I don't have to manually trigger an error of type "division-by-zero" because (mod.. will do that on it's own, so how do I catch that with a (handler-bind instead of a handler-case 2017-10-09T22:01:17Z Josh_2: Or do I not want to do that? Idk 2017-10-09T22:01:24Z Bike: you have the handler specialize on DIVISION-BY-ZERO, instead of DIVISION-BY-ZERO-1 like you have now. 2017-10-09T22:02:07Z Josh_2: For the latter to work I have to manually check if I am about to divide by 0? 2017-10-09T22:02:42Z Bike: yes, you'd have to define a condition class called DIVISION-BY-ZERO-1 and signal it yourself, as by ERROR. 2017-10-09T22:02:48Z Josh_2: That way I can use (error 'division-by-zero-1 ..) 2017-10-09T22:03:02Z Josh_2: What if I just want to use the built in error that mod will throw? 2017-10-09T22:03:14Z Bike: that's fine too. 2017-10-09T22:03:32Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-10-09T22:03:33Z Josh_2: That way it calls (error 'division-by-zero .. on it's own? 2017-10-09T22:03:43Z Bike: mod does, yes, or something equivalent. 2017-10-09T22:04:29Z Josh_2: Okay, so now now it'll look back on the stack for a handler that can deal a division-by-zero error? 2017-10-09T22:04:35Z Josh_2: deal with* 2017-10-09T22:04:42Z Bike: yes. 2017-10-09T22:05:20Z Bike: you can try in your repl (handler-case (mod 7 0) (division-by-zero (c) (declare (ignore c)) (print 'in-handler))) 2017-10-09T22:05:34Z Josh_2: I don't want to use handler-case 2017-10-09T22:05:39Z Josh_2: handler-case unwinds the stack 2017-10-09T22:06:09Z Bike: i know. i'm just trying to get across how the types in handler-bind and handler-case work. that part is identical between them. 2017-10-09T22:07:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T22:07:56Z Josh_2: Is it? Because in PCL it says that handler-bind must take a function-object unlike handler-case 2017-10-09T22:08:21Z Bike: in both forms you specify the type of conditions you want to handler 2017-10-09T22:08:23Z Bike: to handle* 2017-10-09T22:11:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T22:15:31Z Josh_2: Idk 2017-10-09T22:15:53Z Bike: what don't you know 2017-10-09T22:16:49Z Josh_2: I know how to get handler-case to work. I don't know how to put the handler for division-by-zero on the stack. 2017-10-09T22:16:58Z Josh_2: using handler-bind that is 2017-10-09T22:17:08Z Bike: did you try my short example? 2017-10-09T22:17:13Z Josh_2: Yes 2017-10-09T22:17:20Z Bike: and it printed in-handler? 2017-10-09T22:17:23Z Josh_2: Yes 2017-10-09T22:17:35Z Bike: okay, so now you just need to do handler-bind instead of handler-case. 2017-10-09T22:18:18Z Bike: you want to handle conditions of type DIVISION-BY-ZERO, so you'll write like (handler-bind ((division-by-zero ...)) ...) 2017-10-09T22:19:04Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-09T22:19:13Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:21:14Z dirb joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:21:23Z Josh_2: Nope 2017-10-09T22:21:35Z Bike: what do you mean nope 2017-10-09T22:22:10Z Josh_2: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358158#1 that 2017-10-09T22:22:31Z Bike: for handler-bind, the handler is a function of one argument 2017-10-09T22:22:34Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T22:22:54Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-09T22:23:19Z Bike: you had the syntax right before, (handler-bind ((division-by-zero #'(lambda ...))) ...) 2017-10-09T22:23:38Z basket: josh_2: That paste is expired 2017-10-09T22:24:09Z Josh_2: O yeah 2017-10-09T22:24:25Z Josh_2: 1 minute ago. 2017-10-09T22:26:59Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:27:24Z Josh_2: Still stuck. 2017-10-09T22:27:35Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T22:27:47Z Bike: on what 2017-10-09T22:28:04Z Bike: i cannot assist if i don't know what problem you are having 2017-10-09T22:28:19Z Josh_2: Idk how to put my handler on the stack. 2017-10-09T22:28:29Z Bike: use handler bind 2017-10-09T22:28:31Z Bike: that is what it does 2017-10-09T22:28:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-09T22:30:00Z Bike: if you are having a specific problem, please elaborate on it, i am not looking over your shoulder 2017-10-09T22:30:33Z Josh_2: I don't understand the syntax of (handler-bind ..) 2017-10-09T22:31:22Z Bike: (handler-bind ({binding}*) form*), where binding = (type handler) 2017-10-09T22:31:36Z Bike: so if you have one handler, (handler-bind ((type handler)) form*) 2017-10-09T22:32:00Z Bike: type is division-by-zero, handler is a function of one argument that invokes your restart, form* is going to call your function that calls mod 2017-10-09T22:32:04Z Bike: clhs handler-bind 2017-10-09T22:32:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm 2017-10-09T22:32:08Z Bike: has more examples 2017-10-09T22:34:37Z rjid joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:39:26Z postit quit (Quit: quiting) 2017-10-09T22:39:51Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-09T22:41:01Z Josh_2: I don't know what I'm doing. 2017-10-09T22:41:29Z Josh_2: Thanks for your help. I'm going to try again tomorrow. 2017-10-09T22:43:40Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-09T22:47:19Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:47:41Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T22:48:42Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:49:04Z javmx quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T22:52:10Z marcux quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-09T22:52:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:53:08Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:55:47Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-09T22:57:50Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-09T22:58:27Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-09T23:01:57Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-09T23:04:07Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T23:05:27Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:09:04Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:09:24Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-09T23:09:35Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:09:55Z Bike: okay, good luck then. 2017-10-09T23:11:11Z Josh_2: I'm sure I'll get it tomorrow. Got lots of time 2017-10-09T23:18:54Z marcux_ joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:21:01Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:21:54Z xayto left #lisp 2017-10-09T23:26:09Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:31:28Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T23:33:31Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:44:20Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-09T23:44:31Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:46:04Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:46:38Z Coming joined #lisp 2017-10-09T23:49:16Z pmetzger quit 2017-10-09T23:49:30Z marcux_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-09T23:50:28Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T23:51:15Z Xach: hmm, hu.dwim.perec has started to take an absurd amount of time to build. 2017-10-09T23:52:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-09T23:53:04Z bailon quit (Quit: fnord fnord fnord) 2017-10-09T23:55:06Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-09T23:56:27Z MetaYan: scymtym: timed ironclad : http://paste.lisp.org/+7OD1 2017-10-10T00:04:39Z Xach: oh, cool, some problem with uiop 3.3.0 2017-10-10T00:06:25Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T00:07:40Z MetaYan: scymtym: ironclad timing - full logs: https://pastebin.com/P62a5WR1 (scymtym) and https://pastebin.com/0ErHUQiy (sbcl 1.4.0) 2017-10-10T00:09:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:13:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:15:38Z Xach: or maybe some bad interaction with hu.dwim.asdf? 2017-10-10T00:15:39Z Xach: hmm 2017-10-10T00:17:09Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T00:18:30Z MetaYan: Xach: Are you talking to me? 2017-10-10T00:18:55Z MetaYan: Sorry, didn't get it. 2017-10-10T00:21:17Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T00:21:37Z Xach: MetaYan: to myself. i am having some Trouble with quicklisp building stuff. 2017-10-10T00:21:50Z Xach: and attila_lendvai is not present to discuss in real time 2017-10-10T00:21:51Z MetaYan: Those pastes are benchmarks for scymtym - some optimizations in SBCL. ironclad compiles in 25s instead of 66s. 2017-10-10T00:22:18Z MetaYan: Ah, alright. Didn't see anyone responding, so got me wondering... 2017-10-10T00:24:23Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:25:37Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T00:34:04Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:37:19Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T00:43:19Z Xach: i like faster 2017-10-10T00:44:17Z stnutt quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T00:46:00Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:47:54Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:52:12Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T00:54:03Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:54:11Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-10T00:56:53Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:02:30Z Coming quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T01:07:15Z takitus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T01:08:35Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T01:10:16Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:12:24Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:16:14Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T01:19:55Z owstoni quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-10T01:27:00Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T01:29:19Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T01:30:44Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:32:34Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:34:09Z gilberth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T01:34:15Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T01:35:58Z stux|RC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T01:39:02Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:49:52Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T01:55:56Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:58:37Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T01:59:05Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T01:59:37Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-10T01:59:51Z marvin2 quit 2017-10-10T02:02:12Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:07:34Z sebastien_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:08:02Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:09:05Z marcux quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-10T02:09:24Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:12:29Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:12:44Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T02:13:05Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:14:24Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:16:45Z Guest18570 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T02:17:18Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:18:13Z jmercouris: what's the best way to make a blank file if it does not exist? 2017-10-10T02:18:19Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T02:18:32Z jmercouris: I don't want to use lisp to write to it or anything, I just have to make sure it exists 2017-10-10T02:19:12Z jmercouris: I guess I can probe-file to see if it exists, but is there a way to just do like "touch"? 2017-10-10T02:19:20Z jmercouris quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T02:19:38Z White_Flame: open & close it, with :if-does-not-exist :create 2017-10-10T02:19:47Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:19:52Z White_Flame: open & close it, with :if-does-not-exist :create 2017-10-10T02:20:12Z jmercouris: White_Flame: an interesting idea, I think that could work 2017-10-10T02:20:20Z jmercouris: I mean, I know it would work, I'm just not sure I should that way 2017-10-10T02:20:30Z White_Flame: I had to do similar in python recently, same dealio 2017-10-10T02:20:40Z jmercouris: yeah, it's always such a pain this type of operation 2017-10-10T02:21:16Z White_Flame: with with-open-file, it should just be a single clause, probably shorter than most languages 2017-10-10T02:21:36Z White_Flame: (conceptually shorter; it's pretty verbose letter-count-wise) 2017-10-10T02:22:06Z jmercouris: the only thing is, does with-open-file return if the file exists? 2017-10-10T02:22:34Z White_Flame: well, that wasn't part of the original question ;) 2017-10-10T02:22:48Z jmercouris: Right sorry yeah, I also want to do some operations 2017-10-10T02:23:02Z jmercouris: maybe I should probe, and then do with-open-file anyway 2017-10-10T02:23:11Z White_Flame: yep 2017-10-10T02:23:36Z jmercouris: anyways, thanks for your input! 2017-10-10T02:23:40Z White_Flame: np 2017-10-10T02:26:34Z jmercouris: hey everyone, sometimes slime doesn't show the function I'm working on in the message buffer, like it won't show me the current parameter I am on, any reason why that could be? 2017-10-10T02:26:46Z jmercouris: parameter = argument in this case 2017-10-10T02:27:25Z White_Flame: maybe if it's nested in a macro outer form, it doesn't know what it should be 2017-10-10T02:27:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:27:49Z jmercouris: Well that's definitely a possibility yeah 2017-10-10T02:27:56Z jmercouris: but I meant sometimes I start emacs and it won't work at all, and others it will 2017-10-10T02:29:50Z adamada quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T02:29:54Z jmercouris: It keeps putting strange stuff in my messages buffer: error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: nil, 137 2017-10-10T02:30:21Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:32:08Z jmercouris: I'm going to restart emacs, it's being really slow, brb 2017-10-10T02:32:11Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T02:32:24Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:33:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:34:06Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:35:40Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:38:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:41:19Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:41:21Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:43:28Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:46:12Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:47:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:47:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:49:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:49:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:49:41Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:50:55Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:52:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T02:54:57Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T02:55:41Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:05:38Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:05:50Z jmercouris: for anyone curious what the issue is, I forgotten I had patched the lisp I compiled on my system to remove the help doc... 2017-10-10T03:07:57Z miatomi quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-10T03:14:34Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:15:42Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T03:16:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:18:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:23:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:24:46Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T03:25:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:25:41Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:28:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:28:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:29:58Z gilberth joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:30:21Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:31:15Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:32:01Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T03:32:16Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T03:33:38Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:41:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:43:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:46:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:46:01Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:48:23Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:48:43Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:50:41Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:50:45Z PuercoPope joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:52:12Z didi joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:52:19Z didi: How do I delete a directory? 2017-10-10T03:53:23Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-10T03:53:39Z PuercoPope quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T03:54:42Z jmercouris: didi: I think it should be like deleting a file, right? I mean at least on unix, a directory is just a file 2017-10-10T03:55:12Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:55:25Z didi: jmercouris: SBCL doesn't let me. It says my directory is a directory, not a file. 2017-10-10T03:55:59Z jmercouris: didi: uiop:delete-directory-tree 2017-10-10T03:56:00Z didi: It is not wrong. ;-) 2017-10-10T03:56:20Z jmercouris: and then it just takes a pathname 2017-10-10T03:56:49Z didi: jmercouris: Thanks. No plain standard way tho? 2017-10-10T03:57:14Z jmercouris: didi: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/filesystem.lisp#L628 2017-10-10T03:57:23Z jmercouris: not that I know of, but uiop seems pretty standard to me 2017-10-10T03:57:38Z didi: jmercouris: Thanks. 2017-10-10T03:58:10Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T03:58:15Z jmercouris: didi: no problem! 2017-10-10T03:59:08Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2017-10-10T03:59:10Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-10T03:59:41Z scb joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:01:22Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:03:07Z didi: Hihi: "If you're suicidal or extremely confident, just use :VALIDATE T." 2017-10-10T04:03:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:04:06Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:05:07Z jmercouris: yeah, that was an interesting comment 2017-10-10T04:06:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:06:19Z iqubic: How is the next browser coming along? 2017-10-10T04:07:09Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:07:26Z didi left #lisp 2017-10-10T04:09:58Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:10:38Z jmercouris: iqubic: pretty okay, have you checked it out recently? 2017-10-10T04:10:54Z jmercouris: iqubic: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT 2017-10-10T04:10:59Z iqubic: No. 2017-10-10T04:11:02Z jmercouris: I'm working on the bookmarking system right now actually 2017-10-10T04:11:07Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:11:25Z iqubic: I haven't ever tried running the browser yet. 2017-10-10T04:11:26Z jmercouris: I'm also thinking about how to improve the rendering performance of the actual webview 2017-10-10T04:11:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:11:45Z jmercouris: What OS are you on? 2017-10-10T04:12:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:14:36Z iqubic: NixOS. It's a linux distro 2017-10-10T04:14:55Z iqubic: Just think of it as Linux. 2017-10-10T04:14:55Z jmercouris: yeah, I know it, should be relatively easy for you to run it if you want 2017-10-10T04:15:14Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T04:15:17Z jmercouris: it's nothing terribly interesting at the moment, but yeah 2017-10-10T04:15:24Z iqubic: I'm busy now, but I'll look at it later, if that's okay. 2017-10-10T04:15:31Z jmercouris: yeah, no rush at all, :) 2017-10-10T04:21:22Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:21:23Z yaocl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-10T04:27:28Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2017-10-10T04:28:11Z basket quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:32:07Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-10T04:32:25Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:32:50Z emaczen`: How would I stream video with hunchentoot? 2017-10-10T04:33:32Z emaczen`: I've only ever served data that isn't constantly being updated? I'm confused in terms of that constant change 2017-10-10T04:35:10Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T04:37:57Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:43:15Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:45:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:49:48Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:50:35Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:51:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:51:43Z scb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:52:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:52:06Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:52:43Z nika quit 2017-10-10T04:58:37Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-10T04:58:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T04:59:17Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T05:01:10Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:02:21Z stnutt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:03:32Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T05:03:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:03:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:15:15Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:15:51Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-10T05:15:59Z jmercouris: Good morning beach 2017-10-10T05:17:21Z iqubic: Morning beach. 2017-10-10T05:20:37Z scb joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:23:42Z emaczen`: morning beach 2017-10-10T05:23:45Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:28:30Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:29:15Z emaczen`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358171 2017-10-10T05:30:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:32:12Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:37:50Z flip214: eMBee: (hunchentoot:define-easy-handler (video-stream :uri "/stream") () 2017-10-10T05:38:06Z flip214: sorry, the tabs in the source line changed the nickname. 2017-10-10T05:38:08Z flip214: emaczen`: no. 2017-10-10T05:38:21Z flip214: (hunchentoot:define-easy-handler (video-stream :uri "/stream") 2017-10-10T05:38:38Z flip214: should be at top-level. 2017-10-10T05:39:09Z flip214: and I guess that you'll need to use one thread for capturing 2017-10-10T05:39:23Z flip214: and one (started implicitly by hunchentoot) to return the results to the browser 2017-10-10T05:39:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:39:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:40:13Z flip214: just store the bytes in some special variable (eg. "*current-frame*") 2017-10-10T05:40:21Z flip214: and return that data from the /stream handler. 2017-10-10T05:40:44Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T05:41:20Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:41:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:41:27Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:44:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:44:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:45:40Z jmercouris: what's the best way to transform from the 1st list, to the 2nd list: https://gist.github.com/237e37287765c1682e889aa39e25236d 2017-10-10T05:46:01Z emaczen`: flip214: Does define-easy-handler have to be at the toplevel? 2017-10-10T05:46:37Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T05:46:39Z flip214: emaczen`: well, you'll have to look at the macro expansion to know that. 2017-10-10T05:46:58Z flip214: but generally the (define-) things should or must be. 2017-10-10T05:47:09Z beach: jmercouris: (reduce #'append first-list :from-end t) 2017-10-10T05:47:15Z flip214: but you can just change the "bytes" to a special (defvar *bytes* "") 2017-10-10T05:47:23Z flip214: and move the handler outside. 2017-10-10T05:47:41Z jmercouris: beach: thank you for the response, can you please explain how it works? 2017-10-10T05:48:29Z beach: jmercouris: There might be simpler solutions, but you have only given one example. Do all the sub-lists in the initial case have a single element? Does the first list always have two sub-lists? etc, etc. 2017-10-10T05:48:41Z flip214: (mapcar #'car first-list) 2017-10-10T05:49:09Z jmercouris: beach: the list will always be in that format 2017-10-10T05:49:21Z jmercouris: your solution works fine, I just don't understand how it works 2017-10-10T05:49:43Z beach: jmercouris: Then (list (caar first-list) (cadar first-list)) 2017-10-10T05:50:00Z jmercouris: that is an even more cryptic solution to me :D 2017-10-10T05:50:26Z jmercouris: what is caar and cadar? 2017-10-10T05:50:29Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:50:31Z beach: jmercouris: Or just '("http://google.com" "http://reddit.com") 2017-10-10T05:50:41Z beach: clhs caar 2017-10-10T05:50:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 2017-10-10T05:50:50Z jmercouris: yeah I saw that 2017-10-10T05:50:58Z jmercouris: doesn't really clarify anything 2017-10-10T05:51:22Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-10T05:51:36Z beach: I think it is time for you to draw some box diagrams with CONS cells. 2017-10-10T05:51:50Z jmercouris: maybe it is... maybe it is, so much to learn still :D 2017-10-10T05:52:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:54:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:56:03Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:56:47Z scb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:57:14Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T05:57:56Z beach: jmercouris: If you draw the box diagram of you first list, you will immediately see the solution. 2017-10-10T05:58:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T05:59:01Z beach: jmercouris: And if you don't know the structure of that list in the form of box diagrams, you need to learn it. Otherwise, there are some very fundamental things about Common Lisp that you won't understand. 2017-10-10T05:59:06Z jmercouris: beach: is this a good place to start? http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 2017-10-10T05:59:06Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-10T05:59:08Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T05:59:16Z flip214: jmercouris: yes. 2017-10-10T05:59:34Z jmercouris: I feel like a user of the language that doesn't understand it 2017-10-10T05:59:37Z beach: That looks good, yes. 2017-10-10T05:59:48Z jmercouris: I don't know, everytime I look at my code it looks just like I've written python with lisp syntax 2017-10-10T06:00:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:02:09Z phoe_: jmercouris: it's possible - it takes some time and a lot of code writing/reading/posting it up for others to review to get used to writing somewhat idiomatic Lisp. 2017-10-10T06:03:08Z jmercouris: phoe_: how long would you say it takes on average? 2017-10-10T06:04:20Z scymtym: MetaYan: thank you, that is about the expected speedup. a bit more than in my experiments even 2017-10-10T06:04:26Z phoe_: jmercouris: "it takes a day to learn Lisp, unless you know C, at which point it's three days" 2017-10-10T06:04:55Z phoe_: I have no idea about averages. Just keep on writing Lisp, reading it, and posting it up for review. 2017-10-10T06:05:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:05:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:05:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T06:05:12Z phoe_: And you'll get there at some point in time. 2017-10-10T06:05:17Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:05:22Z jmercouris: hmm yeah, someday... 2017-10-10T06:05:24Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:06:29Z whoman: and reading about it; getting into the zone, the mind set of other lisp coders and it rubs off. 2017-10-10T06:06:31Z beach: To become an expert in just about anything takes around 10000 hours of practice, according to many sources. 2017-10-10T06:07:09Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:07:33Z jmercouris: 10,000 hours, that's a long time 2017-10-10T06:07:37Z beach: That's a necessary, but not sufficient, condition. If you do it wrong, you will still be a beginner after 10k hours, like most professional software developers. 2017-10-10T06:08:10Z jmercouris: Well, I think I've been definitely programming for over 10,000 hours 2017-10-10T06:08:23Z beach: "In software development, people don't have 10 years of experience. They have 1 year of experience 10 times." 2017-10-10T06:08:30Z jmercouris: I'm not sure if I fall under the "beginner" tag, the imposter syndrome is real 2017-10-10T06:08:31Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:09:01Z beach: Like I said, it's a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition. 2017-10-10T06:09:43Z jmercouris: beach: what would you say separates a beginner programmer from an advanced one? 2017-10-10T06:10:16Z beach: The amount of practice, of course? 2017-10-10T06:10:22Z whoman: dexterity 2017-10-10T06:10:41Z beach: But if you mean two such programmers with the same amount of practice, then "intellectual curiosity". 2017-10-10T06:10:52Z jmercouris: No, that's not what I'm asking 2017-10-10T06:11:00Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:11:22Z jmercouris: I'm saying something like, what is the difference between an expert and a beginner 2017-10-10T06:11:32Z whoman: when you know the difference, you might not be beginner 2017-10-10T06:11:34Z jmercouris: what kinds of things would a 1 year experience 10 times developer have 2017-10-10T06:11:53Z jmercouris: vs one that had been constantly progressing 2017-10-10T06:12:08Z beach: jmercouris: The one making progress has intellectual curiosity. 2017-10-10T06:12:15Z jmercouris: that is a tautology 2017-10-10T06:12:20Z jmercouris: I'm not asking what defines it 2017-10-10T06:12:28Z jmercouris: I'm asking what are the differences in their outcomes 2017-10-10T06:12:35Z jmercouris: what can the advanced developer do that the beginner cannot 2017-10-10T06:12:37Z shka_: hello 2017-10-10T06:12:43Z beach: jmercouris: So he or she will read code, articles, books, etc. And he or she will try new things, fail, fix it, try again, etc. 2017-10-10T06:13:00Z beach: Hello shka_. 2017-10-10T06:13:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:13:01Z jmercouris: that's what they'll do sure, but what CAN they do that the other CANNOT 2017-10-10T06:13:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:13:18Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:13:24Z zRecursive left #lisp 2017-10-10T06:13:47Z beach: jmercouris: They can write high-quality maintainable code. And they can do it faster. 2017-10-10T06:14:00Z whoman: solve problems [efficiently, tactfully, openly, ..] think of construction work on houses. what would be the difference between an expert builder and a beginner. let's imagine the houses they would each build 2017-10-10T06:14:20Z shka_: "In software development, people don't have 10 years of experience. They have 1 year of experience 10 times." 2017-10-10T06:14:24Z shka_: i like this one :D 2017-10-10T06:14:26Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:14:31Z shka_: it is so true it hurts 2017-10-10T06:14:38Z jmercouris: Is it though? 2017-10-10T06:14:48Z beach: shka_: Yes, I have seen it over and over again. 2017-10-10T06:15:18Z shka_: jmercouris: yes 2017-10-10T06:15:21Z jmercouris: I've worked with a lot of developers, and they seem to really know their domain, so idk, maybe it is the kinds of people I work with, or perhaps I am one of them and don't know it 2017-10-10T06:16:17Z shka_: well, yes, if you are staying in your domain 2017-10-10T06:16:38Z jmercouris: But what does it mean to be a good engineer then? 2017-10-10T06:16:46Z beach: jmercouris: Congratulations, you are very lucky. For example, I myself consider it an absolute necessity for a developer who is supposed to write efficient code, to know all about what the compiler is capable of, so he or she needs to know everything about compiler design. 2017-10-10T06:16:48Z jmercouris: should you just know a little of everything? or be an absolute expert in a domain 2017-10-10T06:16:50Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:16:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:17:18Z jmercouris: I think I will disagree with that sentiment 2017-10-10T06:17:25Z beach: Of course we do. 2017-10-10T06:17:27Z jmercouris: I think it can be advantageous to know the compiler, but also DETRIMENTAL to know the compiler 2017-10-10T06:17:33Z shka_: jmercouris: i think that not many people can truly stick into one domain 2017-10-10T06:17:40Z waveprop joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:17:41Z jmercouris: the whole purpose of the compiler is to serve as an abstraction between lower level bytecode and what we're writing 2017-10-10T06:17:56Z jmercouris: as soon as we break that abstraction, we start writing code outside of the spirit of whatever language it is 2017-10-10T06:17:56Z beach: jmercouris: But I know very few developers who even care about what the compiler does. Of course, there are jobs where it doesn't matter if you write efficient code or not. 2017-10-10T06:18:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:18:06Z jmercouris: It's not about writing efficient code 2017-10-10T06:18:10Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T06:18:22Z jmercouris: If we wanted the efficiency of things below the compiler, we'd write in assembler 2017-10-10T06:18:26Z shka_: jmercouris: i would rather say that the purpose of the language is to act as mere interface to compiler :] 2017-10-10T06:18:37Z jmercouris: No, the purpose of the language is an abstraction 2017-10-10T06:18:40Z jrm joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:18:41Z jmercouris: it is not an interface to the compiler 2017-10-10T06:18:52Z jmercouris: It is a made up paradigm, and we should respect the authors intent 2017-10-10T06:18:57Z jmercouris: otherwise we'll work against the language 2017-10-10T06:19:05Z shka_: perhaps we should? 2017-10-10T06:19:09Z shka_: sometimes 2017-10-10T06:19:15Z beach: jmercouris: I think you misunderstand my point. What I see over and over again are developers who don't know what the compiler is capable of, so they write "optimized" code that is not necessary, and can even be worse than the "unoptimized" version. 2017-10-10T06:19:15Z shka_: just to see what happens 2017-10-10T06:19:15Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T06:19:38Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:20:06Z jmercouris: beach: yes, I had unerstood something different 2017-10-10T06:20:23Z beach: jmercouris: And, because they have no idea what the compiler is capable of, they either just guess, or they go by rumors that are sometimes several decades old. 2017-10-10T06:20:41Z jmercouris: Yes, I've seen that many times in the python community 2017-10-10T06:21:01Z jmercouris: where bad habits carry over from python 2 to python 3 and the performance of things is vastly different 2017-10-10T06:21:13Z shka_: anyway, I, personally, CONSTANTLY switch domain which comes with a price of being in "I have no idea what i am doing" state most of the time 2017-10-10T06:21:52Z beach: shka_: That's the essence of learning, feeling like a child, basically. 2017-10-10T06:22:06Z jmercouris: In that case, I'm learning all the time :D 2017-10-10T06:22:29Z shka_: but i'm getting professional in "i have no idea what i am doing" handling 2017-10-10T06:22:37Z flip214: jmercouris: I believe the advantage of "advanced programmers" is just that they've seen much more kinds of problems already, 2017-10-10T06:22:44Z flip214: and so have a better idea of what to expect. 2017-10-10T06:22:51Z beach: jmercouris: And I am betting that there are still people who replace functions by macros in C for reasons of efficiency, not knowing that 1. The VAX is no longer a relevant platform, and 2. The compiler can inline functions these days. 2017-10-10T06:23:13Z jmercouris: Probably so 2017-10-10T06:23:22Z jmercouris: beach: what does "MC" in McClim stand for? 2017-10-10T06:23:28Z flip214: what kind of performance different approaches give, what happens when something doesn't work (everything stops, or only some part stops), etc 2017-10-10T06:23:39Z beach: jmercouris: The project was started by Mike McDonald. 2017-10-10T06:23:46Z jmercouris: Ah, I see 2017-10-10T06:23:47Z beach: It's in honor of him. 2017-10-10T06:24:49Z beach: I also think it is a good fit, because to me McNuggets, McGazpacho, etc, suggest "not quite real nuggets", "not quite real gazpacho", so this is "not quite real CLIM". 2017-10-10T06:25:01Z jmercouris: Hmm yeah, nah 2017-10-10T06:25:03Z shka_: excessive inlining is a problem on it's own 2017-10-10T06:25:18Z shka_: you never, ever, want to inline every function call 2017-10-10T06:25:34Z beach: shka_: In fact you can't. 2017-10-10T06:25:42Z jmercouris: I want to make a goto converter that just takes all of your control structures in java and transforms them into gotos 2017-10-10T06:25:47Z jmercouris: inlines functions with gotos etc 2017-10-10T06:25:50Z beach: shka_: Consider a (mutually) recursive function. 2017-10-10T06:26:00Z shka_: beach: good, because if you could, some people would do that 2017-10-10T06:26:33Z jmercouris: beach: how long have you been programming, how long have you been programming in lisp? 2017-10-10T06:26:40Z shka_: jmercouris: but why? 2017-10-10T06:27:03Z beach: jmercouris: 1. Since 1975. 2. Since 1977. 2017-10-10T06:27:04Z shka_: java has JIT compiler that can perform partial inlining and stuff 2017-10-10T06:27:22Z jmercouris: shka_: it was a joke 2017-10-10T06:27:30Z shka_: oh, ok 2017-10-10T06:28:06Z jmercouris: Okay so you have a good 39 year head start on me 2017-10-10T06:29:12Z jmercouris: at least for lisp, I've been doing other programming for 12 years 2017-10-10T06:29:16Z flip214: jmercouris: don't worry about that. 2017-10-10T06:29:28Z flip214: just get started with a good book, everything else will work out fine. 2017-10-10T06:29:37Z jmercouris: flip214: thanks :) 2017-10-10T06:30:03Z jmercouris: beach: Also I keep thinking about what you said about mixing foreign code with the actual data structures in my program 2017-10-10T06:30:26Z jmercouris: It was something about having the actual GUI toolkit in a separate thread communicating over some channel so that the state can never be broken 2017-10-10T06:30:27Z beach: I don't remember what I said. Age, you know. 2017-10-10T06:30:35Z beach: Ah, OK. 2017-10-10T06:30:56Z jmercouris: Maybe I'll do that, it carries an extra degree of complexity to it 2017-10-10T06:31:07Z jmercouris: but it could be worth it, I don't know 2017-10-10T06:31:24Z beach: It depends on your definition of "worth". 2017-10-10T06:31:26Z jmercouris: Especially for performance benefits 2017-10-10T06:31:36Z jmercouris: Well, stability of the program would be nice 2017-10-10T06:31:50Z jmercouris: It would be cool if the GUI could entirely crash, and the program would still function, or if it could be daemonized 2017-10-10T06:32:37Z groovy2shoes quit (Excess Flood) 2017-10-10T06:33:00Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:33:27Z beach: jmercouris: OK, here is another bit of my experience: Over and over, I find that industry projects decide to use C++ "because we need all the performance we can get". What they don't realize is that that statement is equivalent to this one: "No matter how minuscule a performance advantage we get, we are willing to spend any amount of time, energy, and money, to get it". When they realize that this is what they have actually said, 2017-10-10T06:33:27Z beach: they typically reconsider. 2017-10-10T06:34:15Z jmercouris: Ah yeah, but I'm not discussing a C++ rewrite here 2017-10-10T06:34:31Z shka_: jmercouris: well, you mentioned crashing :D 2017-10-10T06:34:33Z jmercouris: I'll just run webkit in a separate thread and communicate with it over some IPC 2017-10-10T06:34:46Z flip214: jmercouris: to have the GUI and the backend work independently, they'd need to be separate processes. 2017-10-10T06:34:48Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:34:54Z flip214: like a HTTP browser, yeah. 2017-10-10T06:35:01Z beach: jmercouris: And here is another one for you: Most professional software developers know nothing about the factors that determine performance. So again, they guess, or they go by rumors, with huge amounts of wasted time and energy. 2017-10-10T06:35:05Z jmercouris: Well yeah, that's what I'm saying, separate processes with a socket or something between them 2017-10-10T06:35:07Z flip214: but then you're back at web development and won't be using McClim ;) 2017-10-10T06:35:26Z flip214: beach: these are the bad "professionals", though. 2017-10-10T06:35:40Z jmercouris: flip214: I'm not making an electron app don't worry :D 2017-10-10T06:35:44Z jmercouris: flip214: I'm working on a browser 2017-10-10T06:35:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:35:46Z flip214: the ones doing it for the money, so to say ;) 2017-10-10T06:36:08Z flip214: jmercouris: so your browser backend would communicate with the frontend via HTTP? ;) 2017-10-10T06:36:11Z beach: flip214: Yes, and most professionals are bad. A "professional" is someone who does something for money, and an "amateur" is someone who does something out of love. By definition. 2017-10-10T06:36:23Z jmercouris: flip214: well, maybe idk, just a thought 2017-10-10T06:36:51Z flip214: beach: well, I'm doing IT "professionally" because I have to support me and my family. 2017-10-10T06:36:54Z groovy2shoes quit (Excess Flood) 2017-10-10T06:37:00Z jmercouris: flip214: Currently my implementation has them both tightly integrated together, I don't understand enough about the libraries I'm using to know if they are on the same thread or not 2017-10-10T06:37:08Z flip214: but with no such constraints I'd still be doing IT, perhaps different parts of it. 2017-10-10T06:37:16Z beach: flip214: It is very unfortunate that "professional" is misunderstood as "good", simply because that is definitely not the case for most people. 2017-10-10T06:37:25Z flip214: beach: right, sadly. 2017-10-10T06:37:28Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:37:38Z jmercouris: flip214: At any rate, my program can crash (in the lisp sense) and stay running, but if the QT part crashes, it's not nearly as nice of a result :D 2017-10-10T06:37:45Z flip214: I've seen a MSc that didn't know the difference between array, list, set, and hash-tables... 2017-10-10T06:38:04Z beach: flip214: I am not the least bit surprised. 2017-10-10T06:38:04Z flip214: MSc of IT, that is 2017-10-10T06:38:06Z jmercouris: flip214: there is no difference, flip a coin, and then decide to use skip lists 2017-10-10T06:38:26Z jmercouris: MSc of IT is not really a software engineer though, they are just system administrators, no? 2017-10-10T06:38:48Z flip214: jmercouris: no, he sold himself as a developer. 2017-10-10T06:39:04Z jmercouris: I feel like software engineer needs to become a protected term 2017-10-10T06:39:05Z beach: flip214: Worse, I bet people were willing to hire him as such. 2017-10-10T06:39:08Z flip214: because he's done Java for 5 years! 2017-10-10T06:39:13Z jmercouris: we have way way too many coding bootcamp developers... 2017-10-10T06:39:18Z shka_: well, skip lists are kinda cool… 2017-10-10T06:39:23Z shka_: ;-) 2017-10-10T06:39:40Z flip214: beach: well, my previous employer god rid of him again. perhaps a bit because I insisted, too. 2017-10-10T06:39:48Z jmercouris: 5 years of java sounds like some really harsh punishment, what did he do? 2017-10-10T06:39:50Z beach: flip214: Good. 2017-10-10T06:40:12Z flip214: jmercouris: learning it in school. and he was proud of it, so he doesn't deserve any better. 2017-10-10T06:40:26Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:40:30Z jmercouris: flip214: It was a joke about java being a crime :P 2017-10-10T06:40:31Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:40:42Z flip214: joking aside, this is a case of people knowing so _little_ about IT that they're not able to make informed comparisons. 2017-10-10T06:40:51Z flip214: not even _see_ that they can't. 2017-10-10T06:40:57Z jmercouris: Probably a little bit of dunning kruger here 2017-10-10T06:40:59Z flip214: Dunning-Kruger at its best. 2017-10-10T06:41:02Z flip214: ;) 2017-10-10T06:41:24Z flip214: jmercouris: the problem is that the joke is on the whole industry. 2017-10-10T06:41:28Z jmercouris: I sometimes wonder if the same is not true of myself 2017-10-10T06:41:43Z flip214: jmercouris: if you wonder about that, you're not in the lowest quartile anymore. 2017-10-10T06:41:49Z jmercouris: maybe the people I imagine I am better than are actually better than me, but I have this illusion that I am better than them because I don't know 2017-10-10T06:42:06Z beach: jmercouris: Here is another one for you: I think that every professional software developer should know Common Lisp. Not in order to use it in their job, which is unlikely anyway, but in order to know more techniques for structuring code, and in order to know what they are missing when they use whatever they have to. 2017-10-10T06:42:26Z jmercouris: beach: It's like tasting the nectar of the gods 2017-10-10T06:42:40Z jmercouris: I mean, is it a good thing if you know what you are missing out on? Maybe ignorance is bliss 2017-10-10T06:42:54Z beach: So, in summary, a professional software developer who doesn't know about compiler design, and who doesn't know Common Lisp, is not a great professional software developer. 2017-10-10T06:42:55Z jmercouris: I have been recently annoyed when programming python 2017-10-10T06:43:16Z jmercouris: Well by that definition, I must be a good professional developer :D 2017-10-10T06:43:35Z jmercouris: I "know" common lisp, rather "know of" common lisp lol 2017-10-10T06:43:38Z beach: Not to mention data structures, algorithms, complexity theory, etc. 2017-10-10T06:43:55Z jmercouris: Ah yes, I was always very good at data structures, but never good at time complexity 2017-10-10T06:44:03Z jmercouris: I also had a terrible time with discrete math 2017-10-10T06:44:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:44:32Z beach: And I bet the same people who "need all the performance they can get" are typically ignorant about those things. 2017-10-10T06:45:00Z jmercouris: I don't know, I find it easy to forget these things 2017-10-10T06:45:07Z jmercouris: Without a daily application, I tend to forget them 2017-10-10T06:45:27Z jmercouris: Like, I had to implement a tree, and I couldn't remember how to do rotation transformation to keep it balanced 2017-10-10T06:45:50Z flip214: jmercouris: IMO that's not worthwhile to know. get a library to do that for you. 2017-10-10T06:46:33Z flip214: you'll need to know about various data _structures_ - linked lists, double-linked lists, arrays, hash-tables, binary trees, tries, skip-lists, bloom filters, etc. 2017-10-10T06:46:37Z jmercouris: flip214: Oh yeah, normally you are 100% right, this was a very particular use case 2017-10-10T06:46:42Z beach: Most professional software developers don't need to implement balanced trees. But they need to be "good consumers", i.e. knowing the performance characteristics so that they can choose the right data structure. But they typically don't, as flip214 pointed out. 2017-10-10T06:46:46Z flip214: and a bit of their performance expectations. 2017-10-10T06:47:00Z flip214: then you can use the one matching the problem. 2017-10-10T06:47:25Z jmercouris: I think my favorite thing to do is to invent data structures 2017-10-10T06:47:44Z shka_: beach: well, some WANT to 2017-10-10T06:47:46Z jmercouris: Especially by composting them 2017-10-10T06:47:57Z shka_: data structures are just damn interesting 2017-10-10T06:48:07Z jmercouris: It's very fun when you can get some clever tradeoff by combining several strategies together 2017-10-10T06:48:28Z jmercouris: or even by having the same data reprsented by several structures for performance gains in indexing, search, deletion etc 2017-10-10T06:48:40Z jmercouris: usually the memory of the data structure itself is so light weight that you can do so much 2017-10-10T06:48:43Z flip214: AFAICT, the big problem is not "choosing a red-black tree vs. an AVL tree", but "is it < 10 elements? use a list or simple array. is access needed in O(1)? use a hash-table. etc." (simplified.) 2017-10-10T06:48:49Z beach: shka_: Sure. I am one of them. My Cluffer library is an example of a data structure that I have been working on for a few decades. 2017-10-10T06:48:50Z shka_: personally i don't understand guys that have no clue about that structures because common, this stuff is awesome 2017-10-10T06:49:16Z jmercouris: beach: I thought cluffer was just a buffer library? 2017-10-10T06:49:38Z beach: jmercouris: ILTWYSJ 2017-10-10T06:49:39Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:49:56Z flip214: "I love the way you say J"? 2017-10-10T06:50:06Z beach: "just" 2017-10-10T06:50:08Z shka_: it is getting weird :D 2017-10-10T06:50:09Z flip214: yeah ;) 2017-10-10T06:50:25Z flip214: beach: Linux is "just" a kernel, too ;) 2017-10-10T06:50:45Z jmercouris: Well, sure, but I imagine a buffer as just a contiguous memory space 2017-10-10T06:50:53Z shka_: ok, folks, i need to shave, wash myself and by a decent IT professional 2017-10-10T06:50:57Z shka_: see you later! 2017-10-10T06:50:58Z jmercouris: I guess it must grow and shrink to accomodate that, but what else is it? 2017-10-10T06:50:59Z beach: jmercouris: Yeah, think again. 2017-10-10T06:51:09Z jmercouris: shka_: cya 2017-10-10T06:51:23Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-10T06:51:42Z jmercouris: beach: ah it's not actually a buffer 2017-10-10T06:51:48Z jmercouris: It's a "buffer" in the emacs sense, I see 2017-10-10T06:52:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:52:04Z flip214: jmercouris: see eg. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15199642 for some discussions, also the article 2017-10-10T06:52:10Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:52:17Z beach: It is an "editable sequence" with a very particular use case, namely a text editor. 2017-10-10T06:52:40Z jmercouris: Right yeah, but that's not REALLY a buffer 2017-10-10T06:52:47Z jmercouris: It's a buffer and more 2017-10-10T06:53:27Z beach: I don't think there is a widely agreed-upon definition of "buffer" as an abstract data type. 2017-10-10T06:54:04Z flip214: beach: quick, get a trademark on "Cluffer" for that! 2017-10-10T06:54:24Z flip214: then we only need to create lots of references, and you're good to go! 2017-10-10T06:54:35Z jmercouris: beach: In computer science, a data buffer (or just buffer) is a region of a physical memory storage used to temporarily store data while it is being moved from one place to another 2017-10-10T06:54:40Z jmercouris: beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_buffer 2017-10-10T06:54:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T06:57:12Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-10-10T06:57:58Z jmercouris: beach: Anyways, I did not mean to demean your work if it came across that way 2017-10-10T06:58:21Z jmercouris: by saying "just" this library or so 2017-10-10T06:58:30Z jmercouris: so, sorry if I caused offense 2017-10-10T06:58:50Z waveprop left #lisp 2017-10-10T06:59:09Z jmercouris: anyways, goodnight everyone 2017-10-10T06:59:43Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-10T07:00:33Z beach: Like water off a duck's back. 2017-10-10T07:02:26Z Zhivago: A buffer 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2017-10-10T09:22:24Z phoe_: but that's basically read + unread. 2017-10-10T09:22:25Z shka: "might" 2017-10-10T09:23:23Z phoe_: in other words, you don't. READ is able to return a special EOF value if it encounters an end of file. 2017-10-10T09:25:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-10T09:26:12Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T09:28:21Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T09:29:07Z p_l: Zhivago: a buffer might not even be inside the computer :^) 2017-10-10T09:29:36Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-10T09:30:06Z vhost- joined #lisp 2017-10-10T09:44:01Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T09:57:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T09:57:40Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T10:00:59Z fourier: phoe_: i've created some pull request for your ccl-compat 2017-10-10T10:03:35Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:04:15Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T10:04:56Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:09:17Z nika_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:20:01Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:23:07Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:23:56Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:26:03Z phoe_: fourier: let me take a lok 2017-10-10T10:26:05Z phoe_: look 2017-10-10T10:26:24Z fourier: (im furych from reddit as well) 2017-10-10T10:26:43Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:26:57Z phoe_: fourier: I have no means to test it on my own machine. Can you load CCLDOC with your version of CCL-COMPAT on LispWorks? 2017-10-10T10:27:20Z fourier: the ccl doc will work with these changes and https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc/pull/9 2017-10-10T10:27:32Z phoe_: Oh, so there's a PR on CCLDOC as well. 2017-10-10T10:27:34Z fourier: i tested sbcl, ccl and lispworks 2017-10-10T10:28:11Z fourier: they produce almost identical results with 2 exceptions: the class block in documentation is ccldoc:block now and

is on a newline in sbcl documentation 2017-10-10T10:28:38Z phoe_: fourier: yes, I see - I ran into the BLOCK issue myself. 2017-10-10T10:28:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:29:24Z phoe_: I am worried about NEQ removal - CCLDOC uses it, from what I remember. 2017-10-10T10:29:25Z fourier: I decided just to shadow it 2017-10-10T10:29:32Z fourier: no, you have it twice 2017-10-10T10:29:34Z phoe_: fourier: yes, I see, it's a sane decision. 2017-10-10T10:29:37Z phoe_: Oooh. I see. 2017-10-10T10:30:37Z phoe_: Merged. Thanks! 2017-10-10T10:30:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:31:01Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:31:09Z fourier: no problem! would be happy to use ccldoc with my code. guess "choice of documentation system" problem is solved for me now :) 2017-10-10T10:31:29Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:31:30Z phoe_: fourier: exactly our thoughts. our, as in, the group of people that are hacking away at CLUS. 2017-10-10T10:32:28Z phoe_: just one question remains: if ccldoc runs not only on ccl now, does it become just "doc"? 2017-10-10T10:32:32Z phoe_ mic drops, walks out 2017-10-10T10:33:03Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:33:11Z fourier: its their development after all, hope they will continue to support it and we will just occasionally provide patches :) 2017-10-10T10:33:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:33:43Z phoe_: I know, I know. CCLDOC is still integrated tightly with CCL, and I had to explicitly stub out some functionalities such as source tracking. 2017-10-10T10:34:22Z flip214: phoe_: can't the source tracking stuff be portably solved via swank functionality? 2017-10-10T10:34:59Z phoe_: flip214: it does not work this way. CCLDOC does not use source tracking itself. It only provides input to CCL's source tracking functionalities. 2017-10-10T10:35:32Z phoe_: So it's CCLDOC -> CCL, and not the other way around. 2017-10-10T10:36:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:36:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:37:52Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:39:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:39:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:42:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:43:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:43:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:44:23Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:45:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T10:49:50Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-10T10:59:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:00:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:02:30Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:02:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:03:28Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:05:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:05:44Z kushal is now known as Guest55037 2017-10-10T11:11:09Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:13:00Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T11:13:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:18:07Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:18:19Z flip214 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:21:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:22:33Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:23:09Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:27:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:28:27Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:38:20Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:39:45Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:40:35Z elts joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:45:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:46:42Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T11:51:49Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:52:09Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-10T11:53:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:55:04Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T11:55:37Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T11:57:03Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:58:06Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-10T11:58:14Z tbarabosch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T11:59:15Z TCZ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:03:50Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T12:04:44Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:05:10Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T12:05:18Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:05:52Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:11:58Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:12:02Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:12:21Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-10T12:12:39Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:14:03Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-10T12:14:19Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:14:37Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T12:25:43Z Guest55037 is now known as kushal 2017-10-10T12:25:49Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-10-10T12:25:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:30:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T12:33:05Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T12:43:34Z akovalenko joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:45:49Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:47:10Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T12:50:48Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T12:56:06Z user|2 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:00:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:03:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:05:24Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T13:05:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T13:06:22Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:06:37Z akovalenko quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T13:07:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:09:00Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:09:25Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:11:05Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:12:01Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T13:12:12Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T13:13:01Z user|2: i was thinking about learning lisp but dont you need a mega memory to remember all those parentheses and is prolog better or another language for AI these days? 2017-10-10T13:13:43Z beach: user|2: Common Lisp is not particularly for AI. It is a general-purpose programming language supporting multiple paradigms. 2017-10-10T13:13:53Z Josh_2: The parentheses are easy, a decent editor will help you get them correct. 2017-10-10T13:15:17Z varjag: and AI problems aren't programming language problems 2017-10-10T13:15:39Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:16:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:17:42Z beach: user|2: Experienced Common Lisp programmers don't count parentheses. They go by indentation. The editor computes the indentation based on the nested parenthesis. You see a mistake almost immediately. 2017-10-10T13:17:49Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:18:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T13:18:47Z Josh_2: They float away. I'll see if I can find the xkcd. https://xkcd.com/297/ 2017-10-10T13:18:51Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:19:22Z Josh_2: Or this https://www.xkcd.com/224/ 2017-10-10T13:21:01Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T13:21:36Z micro_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:21:44Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T13:23:47Z phoe_: user|2: lispers never count parens or indent their code. It's their editor's job to do that. 2017-10-10T13:23:54Z pjb: pearl is dead. 2017-10-10T13:24:04Z phoe_: pjb: so is Lisp. 2017-10-10T13:24:16Z jdz: Yes, people have even forgot how it's spelled. 2017-10-10T13:24:18Z pjb: Nope. We still program in lisp. 2017-10-10T13:24:27Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-10T13:24:37Z user|2: thanks for that now i'm not so scared of trying to learn it. and those scary register names... 2017-10-10T13:24:37Z phoe_: pjb: and people still program in Perl. 2017-10-10T13:24:42Z shrdlu68: It's amazing how esoteric Lisp looks from some outsiders' perspective. 2017-10-10T13:24:44Z phoe_: user|2: register names? 2017-10-10T13:24:59Z xantoz: car cdr, probably 2017-10-10T13:25:01Z jdz: Address register, Decrement register. 2017-10-10T13:25:02Z phoe_: car and cdr, you mean? Feel free to use FIRST and REST instead. 2017-10-10T13:25:04Z Josh_2: user|2: If you already know how to program in other languages I don't think you'll have any problems. 2017-10-10T13:25:05Z pjb: phoe_: nope, they've switched to python. 2017-10-10T13:25:11Z user|2: yeah something like %r 2017-10-10T13:25:16Z phoe_: wait, %r? 2017-10-10T13:25:18Z user|2: ok that's good news 2017-10-10T13:25:27Z phoe_: Where did you get %r from? 2017-10-10T13:25:32Z shrdlu68: That sounds like asm. 2017-10-10T13:25:40Z jdz: clhs disassemble 2017-10-10T13:25:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm 2017-10-10T13:25:46Z user|2: because i am desparate to make something intelligent that can learn 2017-10-10T13:26:03Z phoe_: user|2: I still don't know where you can find a %r in Lisp though. 2017-10-10T13:26:05Z user|2: and this may even in 2017 be the right language 2017-10-10T13:26:36Z Josh_2: CL is the right language for hard things (and all things) 2017-10-10T13:26:42Z user|2: maybe prolog or i have named it wrong what i'm talking about but it seemed really arcane and non descriptive 2017-10-10T13:27:43Z phoe_: Prolog is pretty peculiar and has a very hard-defined programming paradigm. Common Lisp is much more freeform when it comes to programming paradigms. 2017-10-10T13:27:47Z shrdlu68: user|2: Prolog is quite different from most languages, even more so than Common Lisp. 2017-10-10T13:28:10Z user|2: ok 2017-10-10T13:28:13Z phoe_: shrdlu68: true. 2017-10-10T13:28:14Z phoe_: :) 2017-10-10T13:29:14Z phoe_: like that old joke, a Prolog programmer and his wife had a baby, and they asked him, "is it a boy or a girl?", and he answered, "true" 2017-10-10T13:29:45Z phoe_: and once you understand that joke, then you have understood the basics of prolog 2017-10-10T13:30:48Z shrdlu68: user|2: If you're interested in it (python), learn it by all means. But Common Lisp is mostly just like any other language. Build webapps in it, write boring systems code in it, write skynet, write boring sysadmin scripts in it, write other languages in it...it's no more esoteric or domain-specific than, say, Python. 2017-10-10T13:31:00Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T13:31:07Z Josh_2: "write skynet" 2017-10-10T13:31:16Z jdz: Among other things. 2017-10-10T13:31:44Z user|2: i heard yahoo used lisp 2017-10-10T13:32:07Z jdz: Nah. 2017-10-10T13:32:10Z Josh_2: Not publicly. 2017-10-10T13:32:16Z Josh_2: They rewrote viaweb 2017-10-10T13:32:23Z Josh_2: I think that's the name :O 2017-10-10T13:32:26Z jdz: In C++. 2017-10-10T13:32:36Z shrdlu68: user|2: I meant if you're interested in prolog above, don't know how python managed to sneak in there. 2017-10-10T13:32:36Z jdz: Took them some effort, though. 2017-10-10T13:32:39Z pjb: google bought ita software and uses sbcl to run it's travel stuff. 2017-10-10T13:32:55Z Josh_2: jdz: that's pretty much blasphemy... 2017-10-10T13:35:02Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:41:44Z user|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.9.2 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-10-10T13:43:31Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:50:55Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T13:51:22Z shka: what a shame that ccldoc was ported just now 2017-10-10T13:51:32Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T13:51:52Z shka: otherwise, i may not spend my time to develop my own custom documentation generator system 2017-10-10T13:58:17Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-10-10T13:58:48Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-10T13:58:52Z Sigyn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T13:59:02Z phoe_: shka: :) 2017-10-10T13:59:46Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:00:53Z Sigyn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T14:01:21Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:01:22Z phoe_: you could have ported it yourself, was two evenings of work 2017-10-10T14:01:31Z Sigyn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T14:01:43Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T14:02:22Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:02:23Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-10T14:02:27Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:03:17Z phoe_: Now that it's portable, I'll want to use CCLDOC in my PROTEST project. 2017-10-10T14:03:31Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-10-10T14:03:47Z shka: phoe_: or i could spend two weeks writing cl-lore 2017-10-10T14:04:13Z phoe_: shka: I don't even know what it is, there's no README 2017-10-10T14:04:26Z shka: ofc not! 2017-10-10T14:04:38Z phoe_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-lore/blob/master/cl-lore.asd#L8 there's no email, yuck 2017-10-10T14:04:41Z shka: i don't have time to document it because i have to document cl-data-structures! 2017-10-10T14:05:53Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T14:05:58Z shka: phoe_: don't judge me :P 2017-10-10T14:10:35Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T14:14:01Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:14:06Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-10-10T14:15:02Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:16:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:17:02Z phoe_: shka: I have readme on PROTEST :) 2017-10-10T14:17:38Z shka: i have docs for cl-ds :P 2017-10-10T14:17:38Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:18:13Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T14:26:52Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:28:15Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T14:29:27Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T14:29:39Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:35:22Z Josh_2: beach: how do I add (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)) to .sbclrc I get an error when I place it as is into the file 2017-10-10T14:35:40Z beach: clhs proclaim 2017-10-10T14:35:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_procla.htm 2017-10-10T14:35:58Z beach: clhs declaim 2017-10-10T14:35:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm 2017-10-10T14:36:03Z beach: I have (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) 2017-10-10T14:36:59Z Josh_2: ahh see I tried (declare ) but that is for local declarations. Thanks! 2017-10-10T14:37:06Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-10T14:39:14Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:39:44Z stnutt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T14:41:34Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:41:51Z panji quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-10T14:44:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T14:46:59Z hjudt left #lisp 2017-10-10T14:48:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:48:58Z jdz: Josh_2: SBCL also has sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy which overrides usual declarations. 2017-10-10T14:49:19Z jdz: I find it very useful to deal with code that loves to declare SAFETY 0. 2017-10-10T14:53:13Z hjudt joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:54:23Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T14:54:29Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:57:05Z Josh_2: Thanks 2017-10-10T14:57:28Z Josh_2: I haven't done a lot of work with other libraries yet, but I'll add it to my .sbclrc and comment it out for later 2017-10-10T14:57:41Z Josh_2: That way I know 2017-10-10T14:57:44Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-10T14:58:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:00:26Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:00:29Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:02:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:04:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:04:29Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-10T15:06:12Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:07:08Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T15:07:09Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:07:19Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:10:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:11:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:12:17Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:12:51Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:16:18Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-10T15:17:42Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T15:19:06Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:19:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:19:47Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:20:57Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:21:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:23:30Z cioran89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T15:23:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:23:48Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:23:50Z Josh_2: Okay, so I'm back to trying to figure out the condition system. I have this here code http://paste.lisp.org/display/358222 and it lets me invoke restarts from the debugger, how do I change it so it is automatic? 2017-10-10T15:24:01Z phoe_: clhs invoke-restart 2017-10-10T15:24:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invo_1.htm 2017-10-10T15:24:03Z Josh_2: It looks like I'm doing it the same as in PCL but it isn't automatic 2017-10-10T15:24:11Z Josh_2: I've got invoke-restart. 2017-10-10T15:24:20Z Bike: josh, we tried to explain in detail why you're not doing it the same as in PCL 2017-10-10T15:24:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:24:41Z rogersm joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:24:46Z Bike: i see you've changed it since then 2017-10-10T15:24:55Z Bike: you seem to be confusing errors and restarts 2017-10-10T15:25:04Z Bike: you have (error 'nil-value) and (invoke-restart 'nil-value) 2017-10-10T15:25:10Z Josh_2: hmm 2017-10-10T15:25:20Z Bike: your error condition is called num-is-nil-error, not nil-value 2017-10-10T15:25:35Z Bike: so you should have (error 'num-is-nil-error) 2017-10-10T15:25:40Z Josh_2: ahh that was a mistake 2017-10-10T15:26:12Z Bike: you have restart-bind case with a restart called return-nil, but refer to return-nil nowhere else 2017-10-10T15:26:21Z Bike: probably (invoke-restart 'nil-value) should be (invoke-restart 'return-nil) 2017-10-10T15:26:37Z Bike: when you run this, did you not get an error like "No condition class nil-value"? 2017-10-10T15:26:49Z Josh_2: No 2017-10-10T15:26:53Z Josh_2: I'll double check 2017-10-10T15:27:01Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:27:06Z Bike: well anyway that's the main stuff. brb 2017-10-10T15:27:12Z Josh_2: I get "Condition COMMON-LISP-USER::NUM-IS-NIL-ERROR was signalled." 2017-10-10T15:27:25Z Josh_2: Then I can manually invoke the restart 2017-10-10T15:29:34Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:30:28Z bigdaddytank quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T15:31:18Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:33:04Z bigdaddytank quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-10T15:34:04Z lounge-user22 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:34:09Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:35:21Z beach: Josh_2: The docstring on RANDOM-NUM seems wrong. 2017-10-10T15:35:27Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:35:28Z beach: Josh_2: Or the implementation. 2017-10-10T15:36:07Z Josh_2: It's a little off 2017-10-10T15:37:39Z Josh_2: Changed it my end 2017-10-10T15:37:55Z Josh_2: "returns a random number between 0 and 100. I the number is a multiple of 5 this will raise an error and return the value of nil" 2017-10-10T15:38:04Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:38:21Z beach: Josh_2: You don't "raise" errors in Common Lisp. You "signal" them. 2017-10-10T15:38:37Z Josh_2: true 2017-10-10T15:38:39Z beach: Josh_2: I think you have your abstractions wrong. 2017-10-10T15:39:04Z beach: RANDOM-NUM does not return if the number generated is a multiple of 5. 2017-10-10T15:39:54Z Josh_2: Hmm 2017-10-10T15:40:28Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:40:30Z Josh_2: It's handled higher up so the value returned is just ignored and a nil is put in it's place? 2017-10-10T15:40:36Z Josh_2: something like that 2017-10-10T15:40:52Z Josh_2: Because there is actually an error, not a returned value. 2017-10-10T15:40:54Z beach: Maybe so, but then you are definitely breaking the abstraction barriers. 2017-10-10T15:41:05Z Josh_2: I don't know what that means. 2017-10-10T15:41:15Z beach: And you are definitely giving the wrong documentation in the docstring. 2017-10-10T15:41:57Z beach: It means that a function should have a well-defined specification that depends on other functions as little as possible. 2017-10-10T15:42:00Z Josh_2: How about this one "returns a random number between 0 and 100, or signals an error if generated number is a multiple of 5" 2017-10-10T15:42:26Z beach: Sort of.... 2017-10-10T15:42:34Z shka: uhm 2017-10-10T15:42:36Z shka: but why? 2017-10-10T15:42:55Z Josh_2: why what? 2017-10-10T15:43:07Z shka: "returns a random number between 0 and 100, or signals an error if generated number is a multiple of 5" 2017-10-10T15:43:19Z beach: "Returns a random number between 0 and 100 that is never a multiple of 5. Around 20% of the time, it signals an error of type NIL-VALUE." 2017-10-10T15:43:20Z shka: randomly signaled error? 2017-10-10T15:43:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:43:23Z shka: why? 2017-10-10T15:43:32Z beach: What "generated number"? 2017-10-10T15:43:33Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T15:43:38Z beach: That's part of the implementation. 2017-10-10T15:43:53Z shka: riiiiiight 2017-10-10T15:44:09Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:44:13Z shka: no idea why anybody would need that 2017-10-10T15:44:18Z Josh_2: No one does need that 2017-10-10T15:44:36Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T15:44:36Z Josh_2: I'm trying to learn to use the condition system, so I'm creating an unexpected situation 2017-10-10T15:44:42Z shka: aaah, ok 2017-10-10T15:45:18Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:45:42Z Josh_2: Changed to "an error of type 'num-is-nil-error" still stuck though. 2017-10-10T15:45:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:46:31Z beach: Josh_2: Here is how to think about signals and restarts. Some low-level code detects a situation it can't handle, but it does not know what to do with it, so it signals an error. But it has several possibilities of continuing, except that it is unable to choose which one is appropriate. 2017-10-10T15:46:32Z beach: Higher level code invokes the lower-level code, knowing how to continue in case of a problematic situation. So higher-level code does a handler-bind in which it invokes the appropriate restart. 2017-10-10T15:46:57Z Josh_2: Haven't I done that? 2017-10-10T15:47:10Z beach: Josh_2: So in your code, what is the lower-level processing and what is the higher level code that invokes it? 2017-10-10T15:47:51Z shka: Josh_2: https://pastebin.com/sR4xhpDr real word example 2017-10-10T15:47:54Z beach: Josh_2: LIST-NUMBER says it creates a list of length len from numbers generated by func. 2017-10-10T15:48:01Z shka: throw away code, so not exactly pretty 2017-10-10T15:48:14Z beach: Josh_2: Why on earth would LIST-NUMBER have a restart-case then? 2017-10-10T15:48:31Z beach: Josh_2: What situation is it that list-number detects that it can not handle? 2017-10-10T15:49:16Z beach: Josh_2: From the example I gave you, LIST-NUMBER must be the lower-level code, but I don't see it detecting any situations it can not handle. 2017-10-10T15:49:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-10T15:51:33Z Josh_2: Right 2017-10-10T15:51:39Z Josh_2: One minute 2017-10-10T15:52:10Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T15:52:16Z minion joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:53:27Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:53:35Z Josh_2: return-type-of-predicate will have a problem when it tries to evaluate (evenp nil) 2017-10-10T15:54:09Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:55:16Z beach: The name and the docstring of return-type-of-predicate do not agree. Is it supposed to filter the elements of the LIST argument and return only those for which the predicate returns true? 2017-10-10T15:55:50Z Josh_2: yes 2017-10-10T15:56:03Z beach: So you need to say that, and you need to rename it. 2017-10-10T15:56:03Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-10T15:56:19Z beach: But, it is none of the business of that function to check whether predicate has a problem. 2017-10-10T15:56:28Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T15:56:44Z beach: If you do that, you need to check that predicate is a function, that it is a function that accepts exactly one argument, etc, etc. 2017-10-10T15:56:54Z beach: That's what I mean by getting the abstractions wrong. 2017-10-10T15:56:55Z Josh_2: Well the predicate returns an error if you give it a nil 2017-10-10T15:57:08Z Josh_2: or it signals a condition of type integer 2017-10-10T15:57:10Z beach: But things will break if the predicate is not a function as well. 2017-10-10T15:57:21Z beach: Why don't you test for that as well? 2017-10-10T15:57:37Z beach: I know why. Because it should not be done in this function. 2017-10-10T15:57:54Z Josh_2: O geez 2017-10-10T15:58:01Z beach: It is the predicate that has a problem. Not the function calling it. 2017-10-10T15:58:28Z Josh_2: Yah so don't I wrap the predicate in a (restart-case ..? 2017-10-10T15:58:57Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T15:58:58Z beach: But you do that in return-type-of-predicate which is wrong. You should do it in the code for the predicate. 2017-10-10T15:59:14Z Josh_2: But It is the built in predicate I'm using 2017-10-10T15:59:20Z beach: You need to wrap evenp in a function that handles the error and proposes a restart. 2017-10-10T15:59:33Z Josh_2: O 2017-10-10T15:59:36Z Josh_2: hmm 2017-10-10T15:59:37Z beach: (defun my-evenp (thing) (restart-case ....)) 2017-10-10T15:59:51Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:00:04Z beach: That's what I mean by your getting the abstractions wrong. 2017-10-10T16:00:29Z beach: In your code, the code that has a problem is not the one that proposes the restart. 2017-10-10T16:00:54Z beach: Add to this fact that your functions names are strange and your docstrings are wrong, and you have a mess. 2017-10-10T16:01:42Z Josh_2: Yes I get it 2017-10-10T16:01:47Z Josh_2: it sucks. 2017-10-10T16:03:08Z beach: I suggest you try to think in the terms I explained. Low-level code that detects a problem AND proposes restarts to fix it. High-level code that invokes the low-level code in a handler-bind and invokes the restart if the error happens. 2017-10-10T16:03:14Z ghull joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:04:39Z beach: I also suggest that you look at the examples in PCL and try to identify the parts that I explained. 2017-10-10T16:05:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:06:37Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:06:52Z shrdlu68: beach: You sound like a lecturer :-) 2017-10-10T16:07:17Z beach: And, when I look at the name LIST-OF-EVENS and its associated docstring, I think "That is a very complicated implementation of that specification. Why not just do (loop repeat (random m) collect (* 2 (random n)))? 2017-10-10T16:07:26Z Shinmera: shrdlu68: Well, he is a professor. 2017-10-10T16:07:59Z beach: shrdlu68: Occupational disease. 2017-10-10T16:08:55Z shrdlu68: Hehe, your exposition betrays it. 2017-10-10T16:11:31Z beach: Thanks [I guess]. 2017-10-10T16:16:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:16:07Z beach: Josh_2: I suggest you start by writing MY-EVEN-P which is like EVENP, except that it proposes one or more restarts if the argument is not an integer. So if it gets a value that is not an integer, it calls ERROR, signaling an appropriate condition, and it has one or more restarts like returning FALSE. 2017-10-10T16:16:43Z ghull quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:17:34Z beach: MY-EVEN-P is an appropriate abstraction, and it corresponds to the use case I explained before (i.e. low-level code that detects a problem...). 2017-10-10T16:18:27Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:19:53Z sebastien_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:20:01Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:20:21Z nika quit 2017-10-10T16:21:45Z lounge-user22 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-10T16:24:19Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T16:26:28Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:30:19Z MrBusiness3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T16:30:20Z Josh_2: FINALLY 2017-10-10T16:31:42Z MrBusiness3 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:31:50Z Josh_2: I finally did ittttttttttttt 2017-10-10T16:32:21Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:33:27Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:35:19Z Josh_2: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358222#1 Now I'm more than happy to talk about everything else that sucks. 2017-10-10T16:36:05Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:36:05Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T16:36:52Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:36:57Z Josh_2: Ahh drats. 2017-10-10T16:37:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:37:57Z Josh_2: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358222#2 2017-10-10T16:39:16Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:42:05Z _death: now you can rename your RETURN-8008 restart to USE-VALUE, have it take one parameter and set I to it.. then you can (use-value 8008 condition) in your HANDLER-BIND 2017-10-10T16:43:09Z _death: and then you should have another loop, calling the predicate with the new I until a valid value is used 2017-10-10T16:43:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:45:43Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:46:06Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:46:10Z paule32: hello 2017-10-10T16:46:20Z paule32: i using sbcl at the moment 2017-10-10T16:46:30Z paule32: and get this: 2017-10-10T16:46:34Z paule32: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien:STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: 2017-10-10T16:47:29Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T16:47:55Z phoe_: paule32: what are you doing in SBCL? 2017-10-10T16:48:11Z phoe_: This looks like CFFI problems. 2017-10-10T16:55:42Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:55:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:55:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-10T16:55:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-10T16:55:53Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T16:58:12Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:00:26Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T17:00:37Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-10T17:00:39Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:01:30Z Josh_2: _death: I did a thing 2017-10-10T17:02:22Z emaczen`: I'm trying to inspect a foreign array by using #'cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp but I have no idea what to do with the array-type argument 2017-10-10T17:02:30Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:02:38Z Josh_2: _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358222#3 2017-10-10T17:03:21Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:03:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-10T17:03:47Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-10T17:09:10Z _death: Josh_2: cool.. usually you define a function that invokes the restart, for example (defun use-value (new-value &optional condition) (let ((restart (find-restart 'use-value condition))) (when restart (invoke-restart restart new-value)))) .. in the case of use-value, CL already defines such a function 2017-10-10T17:10:17Z emaczen`: has anyone used CFFI with opencv before? It is a bit difficult because the C API is deprecated in favor of the C++ API 2017-10-10T17:10:39Z paule32: phoe_: cffi 2017-10-10T17:10:49Z _death: emaczen: I wrote some opencv bindings years ago, when the C API was not yet deprecated.. 2017-10-10T17:11:44Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:12:30Z paule32: Hello World! 2017-10-10T17:12:30Z paule32: 0 2017-10-10T17:12:30Z paule32: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "kallup_init_app" 2017-10-10T17:12:30Z paule32: 2 2017-10-10T17:12:42Z emaczen`: _death: I don't know who would remember particulars about cvEncodeImage... Only in the C API the documenatation says that it returns a single-row matrix that contains the encoded image as an array of bytes 2017-10-10T17:12:54Z paule32: (load-foreign-library 'libkallup) 2017-10-10T17:12:54Z paule32: (defcfun ("kallup_init_app" kallup-init-app) :int) 2017-10-10T17:13:12Z paule32: (print (kallup-init-app)) 2017-10-10T17:13:58Z Josh_2: hmm well I can't actually define a function called (use-value). I'm going out now so I'll fiddle when I get back. Thanks for all the help everyone. 2017-10-10T17:14:16Z emaczen`: In the newer APIs it looks like you pass a vector and it gets filled with your bytes... 2017-10-10T17:14:17Z _death: Josh_2: like I said, CL already defines it 2017-10-10T17:14:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:14:25Z Josh_2: Yeah 2017-10-10T17:14:29Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:14:37Z Josh_2: I'll do something like it when I get home 2017-10-10T17:14:49Z Josh_2: Something like what is written in PCL page 241 2017-10-10T17:16:06Z shka_: i'm back 2017-10-10T17:16:17Z shka_: *yawn* 2017-10-10T17:16:47Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:19:02Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:20:41Z rixard joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:23:01Z rixard quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-10T17:23:17Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:24:15Z paule32: Hello World! 2017-10-10T17:24:15Z paule32: 0 2017-10-10T17:24:15Z paule32: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "kallup_init_app" 2017-10-10T17:24:49Z paule32: the Hello World message is in a C module via printf("Hello World!\n"); 2017-10-10T17:24:56Z paule32: the 0 ? 2017-10-10T17:25:03Z paule32: the warning ? 2017-10-10T17:25:50Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T17:28:32Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:29:33Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:34:57Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:35:50Z emaczen`` joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:37:38Z paule32: ah 2017-10-10T17:37:43Z paule32: i found 2017-10-10T17:37:47Z paule32: (close-foreign-library 'libkallup) 2017-10-10T17:38:03Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:39:20Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:42:54Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:43:16Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:43:29Z compro quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:43:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:43:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-10T17:43:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:43:47Z micro_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-10T17:46:44Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:48:23Z fourier joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:48:29Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:54:18Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-10T17:55:04Z ketralnis quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2017-10-10T17:55:22Z compro quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T17:56:20Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-10T17:58:39Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:07:41Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:07:54Z motersen joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:14:11Z attila_lendvai: emaczen``: pass it something like '(:pointer (:structure my-foo-that-has-been-cffi-defstruct-ed) 2017-10-10T18:18:57Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T18:21:40Z emaczen``: attila_lendvai: I'll try it in a second, I thought I was getting a byte array from C but I'm actually getting a CvMat* which has a single row, so I have to defcstruct CvMat* and get that single row byte array first... 2017-10-10T18:21:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:22:13Z emaczen``: too bad I can't use Clasp and access the C++ API 2017-10-10T18:22:17Z Ven is now known as Guest70887 2017-10-10T18:23:01Z emaczen``: this C++ API just returns a byte array lol 2017-10-10T18:25:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:31:49Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:32:33Z micro joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:37:53Z compro quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-10T18:38:58Z Guest70887 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-10T18:40:03Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T18:40:17Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:40:49Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T18:41:05Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:41:35Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T18:42:04Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:42:13Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:42:22Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T18:42:39Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:43:08Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T18:43:29Z Tristam quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-10T18:43:54Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:44:21Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:44:42Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T18:45:24Z rogersm joined #lisp 2017-10-10T18:45:42Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-10T18:47:29Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T18:48:49Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T18:49:40Z emaczen``: is there anyway to inspect foreign pointers? 2017-10-10T18:52:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T18:56:41Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T18:59:01Z pjb: emaczen``: yes, with gdb. or lldb. 2017-10-10T18:59:44Z emaczen``: pjb: I should have specified "from lisp" 2017-10-10T19:00:11Z kilfer joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:00:29Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:00:38Z pjb: emaczen``: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358240 2017-10-10T19:01:59Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-10T19:02:04Z larme quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-10T19:03:58Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:05:47Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:06:33Z emaczen``: pjb: I'm going to make a paste... this is killing me. 2017-10-10T19:07:13Z dlowe: this is why we generally prefer all-lisp libraries 2017-10-10T19:07:25Z dlowe: it's just soooo much easier when there's a problem 2017-10-10T19:07:33Z dlowe: and there's always a problem eventually 2017-10-10T19:08:27Z emaczen``: dlowe: yep, unless someone else has already tied into C and wrote a wrapping API, then you have to 2017-10-10T19:09:07Z emaczen``: The C API I am trying to use is deprecated too... 2017-10-10T19:09:15Z emaczen``: in favor of the C++ one 2017-10-10T19:11:17Z kilfer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T19:11:23Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-10T19:12:40Z fourier: emaczen``: in difficult cases I typically write the short C/C++ program which does exactly what I expect from Lisp program to do towards the library I'm dealing with and literally translate all back to lisp 2017-10-10T19:12:50Z Posterdati|2 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:13:08Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T19:13:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-10T19:13:35Z kilfer joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:13:55Z kilfer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T19:14:11Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:15:59Z kilfer joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:19:08Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T19:19:59Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T19:20:00Z emaczen``: fourier: I'm dealing with images and I think I'm going to have a hard time determining if I'm even getting what I expect 2017-10-10T19:20:06Z emaczen``: fourier: I just haven't done enough C programming 2017-10-10T19:20:29Z emaczen``: I'll try to finish my post later if I fail with ABCL... which I probably will 2017-10-10T19:20:37Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-10T19:21:22Z paule32: i search for quantum computer programming by doing lisp - have anyone links, infos ? 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2017-10-10T21:16:46Z MrBusiness3 quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-10-10T21:17:34Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-10T21:19:04Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-10T21:19:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-10T21:21:57Z p_l: N6 2017-10-10T21:22:04Z p_l: oops, wrong window 2017-10-10T21:27:40Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-10-10T21:36:09Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-10T21:36:36Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-10T21:38:57Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T21:41:26Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T21:44:54Z stnutt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T21:50:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-10T21:51:51Z White_Flame: JSA_: yeah 2017-10-10T21:52:09Z White_Flame: although it's a very broad field & varying skill sets 2017-10-10T21:52:57Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T21:53:47Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T21:55:55Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-10T21:58:27Z drmeister: I'm trying to rethink how clasp bootstraps itself. 2017-10-10T21:58:44Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-10T21:58:46Z drmeister: Let's say I compile a minimal version of Clasp that has a compiler compiled into it. 2017-10-10T21:59:34Z drmeister: Can I expect to be able to compile-file all of the Common Lisp source code (including CLOS) and then link and load that together. 2017-10-10T21:59:45Z drmeister: Or do I need to compile-file each source file separately and then load it? 2017-10-10T21:59:56Z dim: reminds me of the “Trusting trust” talk from Thompson 2017-10-10T22:00:09Z dim: https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf --- you might already be familiar with it 2017-10-10T22:00:11Z Bike: if the files are written for it they can all be compiled before being loaded 2017-10-10T22:00:25Z drmeister: I realize this is not a well formed question and there are implementation dependent stuff here. 2017-10-10T22:00:40Z drmeister: Right - so they have to be written for it. 2017-10-10T22:00:42Z Bike: the trick is to make sure that anything the compiler uses is properly defind in the compiler context 2017-10-10T22:00:46Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:00:47Z drmeister: How would I know if they are written for it. 2017-10-10T22:00:53Z Shinmera: drmeister: In general you cannot compile-file and load in separate stages. 2017-10-10T22:01:08Z Bike: how would you know? if it works, i guess 2017-10-10T22:01:25Z Shinmera: drmeister: You'd need something like SBCL's cfasls. 2017-10-10T22:01:50Z drmeister: What are cfasls? 2017-10-10T22:02:05Z Bike: they're fasls that record the compile-time side effects 2017-10-10T22:02:12Z Shinmera: fasls that only contain compile-time side-effects, such that you can load this minimal part to compile-file the rest without having to do a full load. 2017-10-10T22:02:49Z Bike: (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...this goes in the fasl...) (eval-when (:execute) ...this is only executed when loading as source...) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...in the cfasl...) 2017-10-10T22:02:50Z Shinmera: It was used to do build parallelisation, I believe. 2017-10-10T22:04:02Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:04:05Z Shinmera: Actually now I'm not so sure if what I'm talking about is even relevant 2017-10-10T22:04:11Z Shinmera: it's too late for me to give advice. 2017-10-10T22:04:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T22:04:32Z drmeister: Thank you 2017-10-10T22:05:09Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-10T22:05:27Z joga joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:05:37Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-10T22:05:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T22:06:27Z Tordek joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:07:17Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:07:40Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T22:08:15Z drmeister: The slow part of building clasp has been bclasp LOADing and JITting all of Cleavir and clasp's extensions to Cleavir, (~10 min) and then running that code to build all of cclasp (~50 min). 2017-10-10T22:09:17Z drmeister: Compiling all of the cclasp source code with cclasp takes about 15 min. 2017-10-10T22:09:45Z Josh_2: You should try Gentoo 2017-10-10T22:09:52Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:10:26Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:11:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-10T22:11:35Z drmeister has enough slow in his life 2017-10-10T22:11:45Z joaj joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:11:55Z drmeister: Computers suck 2017-10-10T22:13:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:13:59Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:15:55Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-10T22:16:07Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:19:05Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:20:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-10T22:21:34Z DingoSaar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T22:22:26Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:23:17Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:24:49Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-10T22:29:14Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-10T22:32:10Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-10T22:33:30Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:33:48Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:34:46Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:36:19Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-10T22:37:11Z emaczen``: Can anyone tell me how to reference a java static variable in ABCL? 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2017-10-10T23:34:36Z jasom: anticrisis: check-type always returns nil 2017-10-10T23:34:41Z jasom: clhs check-type 2017-10-10T23:34:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 2017-10-10T23:34:46Z anticrisis: oh 2017-10-10T23:34:55Z jasom: it's a type assertion 2017-10-10T23:35:10Z anticrisis: right, it's supposed throw a signal if it fails 2017-10-10T23:35:34Z anticrisis: ok, my brain obviously stopped a little bit earlier, sorry. 2017-10-10T23:37:13Z anticrisis: i don't suppose we can erase the last few lines of the irc log, can we? 2017-10-10T23:38:36Z jmercouris: Does anyone know how to call rust functions from within lisp? 2017-10-10T23:38:57Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-10T23:39:20Z javmx joined #lisp 2017-10-10T23:42:49Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-10T23:48:15Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-10T23:52:40Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-10T23:55:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-10T23:57:21Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:00:25Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:01:32Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:02:14Z sukaeto quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:02:33Z sukaeto joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:03:41Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:06:15Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:07:03Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T00:08:17Z antoszka: jmercouris: did you try compiling rust to object code/libraries and calling that the same way you'd call C (via cffi)? 2017-10-11T00:08:41Z antoszka: jmercouris: that's how I'd approach the problem, though I've honestly have zero experience with rust ;) 2017-10-11T00:08:57Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:12:20Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:17:11Z jmercouris: antoszka: I didn't try that, at any rate, I found out the project I want to use is too immature any way, so I'll just use C++ and I'll be fine :D 2017-10-11T00:18:18Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-11T00:19:51Z joaj quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-11T00:23:25Z antoszka: jmercouris: cool 2017-10-11T00:23:28Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T00:23:43Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:23:59Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:25:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:25:57Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:29:35Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:31:00Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:37:35Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T00:54:03Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T00:57:17Z javmx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T00:58:56Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-11T01:00:42Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T01:16:11Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-11T01:17:19Z libre-man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T01:23:13Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-10-11T01:23:36Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T01:25:32Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T01:32:28Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T01:39:18Z emaczen: as predicted I failed to get ABCL to do what I want... 2017-10-11T01:39:25Z emaczen: here is my paste: 2017-10-11T01:39:31Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/submit 2017-10-11T01:39:37Z emaczen: wait 2017-10-11T01:39:48Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358268 2017-10-11T01:40:37Z emaczen: all help is much appreciated 2017-10-11T01:42:06Z Zhivago: What is the first surprising thing about your code? 2017-10-11T01:43:03Z emaczen: Zhivago: I don't know 2017-10-11T01:43:09Z QualityAddict quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T01:43:22Z emaczen: Zhivago: I know that capturing works, I'm just having trouble getting a byte array 2017-10-11T01:44:55Z Zhivago: If there is no first surprising thing, the code works as expected. 2017-10-11T01:46:16Z emaczen: What do you think *bytes* is? 2017-10-11T01:46:42Z emaczen: I'm just stuck. All I can see is # 2017-10-11T01:48:47Z emaczen: did I even do the defcstruct form right? 2017-10-11T01:50:57Z emaczen: I also can't figure anything out with #'cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp to try to see what's going on 2017-10-11T01:51:16Z Zhivago: *bytes* looks like a special that you haven't defined in that code. 2017-10-11T01:51:42Z emaczen: Yeah it is (defparameter *bytes* nil) in another file 2017-10-11T01:52:51Z Zhivago: Does cvencodeimage produce a surprising result? 2017-10-11T01:53:16Z emaczen: It just produces a foreign pointer 2017-10-11T01:53:28Z emaczen: It is supposed to be of type CvMat* 2017-10-11T01:53:54Z emaczen: So I included the C source definition of CvMat and then my defcstruct form 2017-10-11T01:54:07Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T01:56:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-11T01:57:19Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T01:57:54Z karswell_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T01:58:20Z Zhivago: And can you access the fields of what cvencodeimage provides a pointer to, and find expected values? 2017-10-11T01:59:07Z emaczen: that's my problem, when I evaluate that cffi:foreign-slot-value form, I just get another foreign pointer 2017-10-11T01:59:32Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T01:59:43Z emaczen: I'm obviously new to cffi as well... 2017-10-11T02:00:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:06:02Z emaczen: Zhivago: Can you give me any debugging suggestions? 2017-10-11T02:07:41Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:09:26Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:11:17Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T02:17:08Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:17:35Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:18:55Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:19:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:19:56Z text1 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:20:21Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:20:35Z BlueRavenGT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T02:22:35Z safe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:23:54Z hifitim joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:24:40Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:25:30Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-11T02:26:47Z hifitim quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-11T02:27:51Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:30:09Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:32:31Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:38:03Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:40:48Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T02:41:02Z SpikeMaster left #lisp 2017-10-11T02:43:05Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:43:05Z marvin2 quit (Quit: quit) 2017-10-11T02:43:20Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:43:35Z |3b| quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:44:26Z heurist joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:45:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:45:24Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T02:45:42Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:46:11Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T02:46:28Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:46:32Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:46:57Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T02:47:50Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:47:59Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:48:29Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T02:49:39Z Oladon1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T02:49:59Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:50:49Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:51:08Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:53:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:54:49Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:55:23Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-11T02:56:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:58:05Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T02:59:08Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T03:02:41Z trn joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:03:13Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:04:22Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-11T03:05:34Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-11T03:05:42Z anticris` joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:08:32Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:08:57Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T03:12:01Z anticris` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T03:12:01Z larme joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:13:46Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T03:14:00Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:16:41Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T03:18:16Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:18:44Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:18:46Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T03:20:20Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:23:51Z compro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T03:23:58Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:24:30Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:24:58Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T03:27:30Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-11T03:27:39Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-11T03:28:14Z iqubic: Morning Beach 2017-10-11T03:32:22Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:37:32Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T03:41:13Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:41:33Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:42:10Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T03:46:14Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-11T03:47:07Z emaczen: morning beach 2017-10-11T03:47:40Z emaczen: what is the status of Clasp and how is the C++ interface going to turn out? 2017-10-11T03:47:50Z emaczen: or what is the C++ interface going to be like. 2017-10-11T03:48:21Z emaczen: I can relate to the CCL cocoa-bridge and I have only just toyed with ABCL's java integration 2017-10-11T03:48:24Z beach: I think you are better off asking that in #clasp. 2017-10-11T03:48:41Z emaczen: beach: Do you work on Clasp? 2017-10-11T03:48:46Z beach: drmeister seems to come here to #lisp only when he has a general Common Lisp question to ask. 2017-10-11T03:49:18Z beach: emaczen: No I don't. But Clasp uses the Cleavir compiler framework for its main compiler. And I am working on Cleavir. 2017-10-11T03:49:33Z drmeister: Actually, I'm here all the time. 2017-10-11T03:49:48Z drmeister: Not omnipresent... just highly mobile. 2017-10-11T03:49:55Z beach: Physically, yes. But are you listening? :) 2017-10-11T03:49:56Z emaczen: drmeister: I just asked on #clasp 2017-10-11T03:49:59Z jmercouris: beach: I'm not understanding the connection, why did you bring up drmeister? 2017-10-11T03:50:17Z beach: jmercouris: He is the author of Clasp. 2017-10-11T03:50:27Z jmercouris: Ah, ok 2017-10-11T03:50:47Z jmercouris: emaczen: how's the CCL cocoa bridge, easy to use? any issues you encountered? 2017-10-11T03:51:16Z jmercouris: emaczen: any good resources you can reccomend? 2017-10-11T03:51:23Z emaczen: jmercouris: I wish they had it integrated with OpenStep so I could use it elsewhere and not just on OSX 2017-10-11T03:51:40Z jmercouris: Yeah, oh well :\ 2017-10-11T03:52:08Z jmercouris: I guess you can make different bindings for different platforms that are abstracted somehow 2017-10-11T03:52:27Z jmercouris: emaczen: what's your end goal in using the cocoa bridge, what are you building? 2017-10-11T03:52:29Z emaczen: jmercouris: I think it was done pretty well since they used the MOP 2017-10-11T03:52:59Z emaczen: I really want OpenStep so I don't have to buy another Mac in a few years... 2017-10-11T03:53:22Z jmercouris: Just get a mac mini, relatively cheap 2017-10-11T03:53:52Z emaczen: That's what I have now haha, but I need something fast. I keep freezing my mini becuase I use so much memory. 2017-10-11T03:54:30Z emaczen: I stopped starting SBCL with --dyanamic-space-size 4096 because I learned my lesson eventually... ha 2017-10-11T03:55:26Z jmercouris: emaczen: just run everything from emacs, saves a ton of ram 2017-10-11T03:55:38Z emaczen: Right now, I want the bridge for capturing video. I'm working with the CFFI and I just don't know that much about C and there isn't much to inspect either... 2017-10-11T03:55:45Z emaczen: jmercouris: I do run it from emacs 2017-10-11T03:56:18Z jmercouris: emaczen: I'm saying run EVERYTHING from emacs 2017-10-11T03:56:33Z emaczen: jmercouris: Do you run Arch with just emacs? 2017-10-11T03:56:50Z jmercouris: No, I don't like arch, I run OSX and FreeBSD 2017-10-11T03:57:10Z emaczen: Do you use w3m for web browsing? 2017-10-11T03:57:25Z jmercouris: I know you are totally joking, but I used to use elinks as my main browser 2017-10-11T04:01:08Z emaczen: Did they ever start using Guile yet? 2017-10-11T04:01:17Z jmercouris: Who is "they"? 2017-10-11T04:01:25Z emaczen: the emacs development team 2017-10-11T04:01:48Z jmercouris: Not as far as I know, though every so often someone makes a controversial blog post about why we should start using it 2017-10-11T04:02:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:02:08Z emaczen: they should have done commonlisp decades ago! 2017-10-11T04:02:08Z jmercouris: When I say "we" I mean the emacs community, I'm not a developer of emacs 2017-10-11T04:02:29Z jmercouris: You know about climacs right? 2017-10-11T04:02:39Z emaczen: I think I tried it once 2017-10-11T04:03:11Z jmercouris: beach: do you think that climacs will ever overtake emacs? 2017-10-11T04:03:32Z beach: No. 2017-10-11T04:03:52Z jmercouris: beach: do you use climacs or emacs? or something else? 2017-10-11T04:04:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T04:04:23Z beach: I use Emacs right now. I am working on Second Climacs, which I hope will be much better than Emacs for Common Lisp development. 2017-10-11T04:04:55Z jmercouris: What are some of the things you'd like to improve about Emacs in Climacs? 2017-10-11T04:05:58Z beach: I am working on an incremental parser for Common Lisp code. It will be able to do things that can not be done with Emacs or SLIME. 2017-10-11T04:06:29Z jmercouris: beach: Like what? what do you mean? 2017-10-11T04:06:47Z jmercouris: Like pausing on an error during compilation and allowing you to change the offending line and then continuing compiling? 2017-10-11T04:07:24Z beach: I am planning to compile at typing speed so that errors can be visible without hitting C-c C-c or equivalent. 2017-10-11T04:07:35Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T04:07:40Z jmercouris: Oh wow, that would be amazing 2017-10-11T04:07:44Z dieggsy quit (Quit: peace) 2017-10-11T04:07:47Z jmercouris: So something like flycheck for lisp, but faster? 2017-10-11T04:07:59Z beach: I don't know about flycheck. 2017-10-11T04:08:18Z jmercouris: "On the fly syntax checking for GNU Emacs" https://github.com/flycheck/flycheck 2017-10-11T04:09:00Z beach: It can already indicate names of packages that don't exist, names of symbols that are not exported from a particular package, names of symbols that do not exist in a particular package. 2017-10-11T04:10:04Z beach: Yes, something like flycheck it seems. 2017-10-11T04:10:45Z jmercouris: So your parser will only be able to check like "compile" time issues right? 2017-10-11T04:10:47Z beach: jmercouris: I am also planning things like the ability to hover the mouse over a variable and see the places where it is defined or assigned to. 2017-10-11T04:10:47Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:11:11Z jmercouris: Ah yes, that is a feature that I am sorely missing from other languages in lisp, it only works some small percentage of the time in emacs 2017-10-11T04:11:23Z beach: jmercouris: What other issues are you thinking of? 2017-10-11T04:11:40Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T04:12:10Z jmercouris: beach: for example, you might be able to see that there's a divide by 0 situation based on some assignment, stuff like that, things you'd have to run the program to get an error for 2017-10-11T04:12:53Z yxabc joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:13:02Z beach: I am not planning anything like that. But, I am planning a tight integration with SICL, so that run-time errors can be indicated by highlighting the offending place in the source code. 2017-10-11T04:13:26Z jmercouris: beach: Do you expect that SICL will ever be as performant as other lisp implementations? 2017-10-11T04:13:49Z jmercouris: If not, what would you suggest to developers? Use SICL/Climacs for dev, and then deploy your apps with SBCL for example? 2017-10-11T04:14:56Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T04:15:07Z beach: I hope so. But, the goal is very different. I see Common Lisp as a safe language, so safety is my first goal. Other people work hard (using FFI) to turn Common Lisp into a clone of any old unsafe language out there. So there might be performance issues like that, that I am not willing to cater to in SICL. 2017-10-11T04:15:30Z beach: Otherwise, I am planning to use the latest research in compiler technology to make things as fast as I possibly can. 2017-10-11T04:17:06Z jmercouris: Are you saying that anytime FFI is used, there is some degree of uncertainty due to the inability to properly test a C program for all unexpected behavior? 2017-10-11T04:17:27Z jmercouris: That is, because of the nature of the lisp interpreter, you can recover from any error, but the moment you introduce FFI, this net is lost? 2017-10-11T04:17:37Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:17:37Z beach: Not quite. 2017-10-11T04:19:03Z beach: First of all, many implementations, including SBCL, can be unsafe as it is. If you declare (safety 0), or just declare something to be dynamic extent that really isn't , then SBCL is unsafe. Also, any library installed with (say) Quicklisp can alter the compiler and install a virus. 2017-10-11T04:19:36Z jmercouris: Ah okay, I get your meaning now 2017-10-11T04:20:01Z jmercouris: Are you planning on usage in embedded systems or something? Why is safety so important? 2017-10-11T04:20:03Z beach: But yes, most C compilers rely on undefined behavior in the C standard in order to favor fast but unsafe code. So using FFI makes Common Lisp just as unsafe as the C compiler that is used that way. 2017-10-11T04:20:39Z emaczen: we value our privacy! 2017-10-11T04:20:58Z jmercouris: emaczen: What do you mean? 2017-10-11T04:21:45Z emaczen: If someone can install a virus on your computer because you are using unsafe code, that sounds like a pretty big intrusion if you ask me! 2017-10-11T04:21:58Z beach: jmercouris: I think computing is in a rut. We are using operating systems and programming languages that are by nature unsafe, which dire consequences. Then we try to patch things up with stuff like ASLR, making life harder for the developers. I would like to try something else. 2017-10-11T04:22:10Z jmercouris: emaczen: There are many many vectors, quicklisp is probably one of the least likely 2017-10-11T04:22:37Z beach: s/which dire/with dire/ 2017-10-11T04:22:47Z vtomole: Speaking about unsafe, today i learned that garbage collectors can have memory leaks. 2017-10-11T04:23:18Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, I hear you, ASLR blows my mind that it even works, let alone that it doesn't have massive consequences on perofrmance 2017-10-11T04:23:31Z beach: vtomole: Not typically. But code that relies on GC can, if you don't make big data structures inaccessible. 2017-10-11T04:23:47Z beach: jmercouris: Apparently, it doesn't even work very well. 2017-10-11T04:23:52Z toy joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:23:53Z jmercouris: I think one of the big issues here is legacy systems, and the inertia from that, nobody wants to pay for the retooling of all systems, despite all of the knowledge we've gained about best practices 2017-10-11T04:24:11Z iqubic_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:24:13Z jmercouris: beach: no definitely not, there are quite a few good strategies that work on probability models to defeat them 2017-10-11T04:24:37Z emaczen: beach: the computing world is pathetic, case in point: HTML, CSS, Javascript, server-language, database-language -- a typical dev environment, and it can be worse. 2017-10-11T04:24:43Z beach: jmercouris: I am a researcher, so I don't care about legacy. I don't care if I am the only person using Second Climacs, SICL, or whatever. I am satisfied showing that it can work. 2017-10-11T04:25:11Z beach: emaczen: I know all too well. :( 2017-10-11T04:25:17Z shenghi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T04:25:25Z jmercouris: Don't even get me started on the state of web development 2017-10-11T04:25:47Z shenghi joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:25:51Z emaczen: beach: If you don't use a honoiconic language you can't unify your tools into one 2017-10-11T04:25:55Z jmercouris: It feels like javascript has become this terrible monstrosity, why would you ever run applications in the browser??? That is NOT the purpose of HTML or the web... 2017-10-11T04:26:01Z emaczen: homoiconic* 2017-10-11T04:26:06Z beach: emaczen: I hear you. 2017-10-11T04:26:19Z vtomole: What about forking emacs and rewriting small parts of it in cl, work inside out. Instead of starting afresh. 2017-10-11T04:26:27Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T04:26:36Z jmercouris: vtomole: that's what they talk about with guile all the time 2017-10-11T04:26:36Z vtomole: Something like remacs https://github.com/Wilfred/remacs 2017-10-11T04:26:42Z paule32: good morning 2017-10-11T04:26:46Z jmercouris: and how it would be backwards compatible, and you could mix elisp etc... 2017-10-11T04:26:59Z jmercouris: paule32: good morning 2017-10-11T04:27:28Z paule32: i have the unbound-variable msg/err 2017-10-11T04:27:29Z vtomole: Why guile and not cl though. It seems like they are doing it intentionally just to spite cl haha 2017-10-11T04:27:33Z paule32: (in-package :cffi) 2017-10-11T04:27:33Z paule32: (define-foreign-library libkallup 2017-10-11T04:27:33Z paule32: (:unix "/home/jens/Projekte/ai/test/kallup/libkallup.so") 2017-10-11T04:27:33Z paule32: (t (:default "/home/jens/Projekte/ai/test/kallup/libkallup.so"))) 2017-10-11T04:27:57Z emaczen: paule32: how do you deal with all the foreign pointers? 2017-10-11T04:28:22Z paule32: what do you mean? 2017-10-11T04:28:30Z beach: vtomole: RMS doesn't like Common Lisp. 2017-10-11T04:28:51Z jmercouris: paule32: paste.lisp.org 2017-10-11T04:28:56Z paule32: ah ok 2017-10-11T04:28:58Z SaganMan: he doesn't like some things in common lisp 2017-10-11T04:29:06Z emaczen: I'm working with my first CFFI project and I'm trying to get a byte array from a CvMat* 2017-10-11T04:29:53Z emaczen: I don't think I have any way of really knowing if I get the right pointer 2017-10-11T04:30:05Z jmercouris: vtomole: oh, it's most definitely intentional, common lisp makes way more sense than some arbitrary gnu definition of lisp 2017-10-11T04:30:26Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:30:32Z emaczen: guile is scheme 2017-10-11T04:31:57Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358274 2017-10-11T04:32:04Z beach: jmercouris: So, in summary, the plan is to work on Cleavir and SICL to create a safe Common Lisp system, to work on Second Climacs to get an order-of-magnitude improvement in development tools, ... 2017-10-11T04:32:05Z beach: to work on Clordane (http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf) which will probably require SICL, to get an order-of-magnitude better debugger,, and to then work on LispOS (http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf) using SICL as a basis. 2017-10-11T04:32:14Z vtomole: beach: But he's currently not working on emacs. So that shouldn't matter, right? So emacs devs also hate CL 2017-10-11T04:32:27Z beach: vtomole: I don't know. 2017-10-11T04:33:25Z emaczen: beach is making a second generation of lisp machines 2017-10-11T04:33:40Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:34:43Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T04:35:06Z vtomole: beah: I didnt know about this clordane paper. Looks like ive got some reading to do. 2017-10-11T04:35:49Z beach: vtomole: None of that stuff exists yet, but it will be easier to create when SICL and Second Climacs exist. 2017-10-11T04:36:22Z beach: vtomole: It should also be seen as a statement of how I think existing Common Lisp systems should evolve (i.e., to be able to support such a thing). 2017-10-11T04:38:22Z beach: But I have no great hopes for that to happen, of course. 2017-10-11T04:38:47Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T04:39:22Z Guest6344 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T04:39:31Z vtomole: beach: About Second Climacs, if the editor is compiling the expressions while you are entering them. Is there a way to make it also check for type errors? 2017-10-11T04:40:06Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-11T04:40:41Z beach: vtomole: Yes, that might be possible to a certain extent. As you probably know, whether a Common Lisp program is correctly typed is undecidable. But there is a subset of common situations that we can check. 2017-10-11T04:40:59Z vtomole: Awesome! 2017-10-11T04:41:00Z beach: vtomole: The type inferencer catches some type errors. 2017-10-11T04:41:26Z vtomole: So the editor has a type inferencer. Cool! 2017-10-11T04:41:53Z paule32: emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358274 2017-10-11T04:41:54Z beach: Well, it will run the first few passes of the Cleavir compiler, and Cleavir has a type inferencer. 2017-10-11T04:41:59Z paule32: can you help? 2017-10-11T04:42:26Z emaczen: I'll take a look or try 2017-10-11T04:43:26Z emaczen: does require intern all symbols like use? 2017-10-11T04:43:41Z paule32: i don't know 2017-10-11T04:44:31Z pillton: You are better off using (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (asdf:load-system "cffi")). 2017-10-11T04:44:40Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:45:05Z emaczen: paule32: I did (cffi:define-foreign-library ...) 2017-10-11T04:45:10Z pillton: The require operator isn't required to be associated with ASDF. 2017-10-11T04:45:29Z emaczen: but I actually don't need to since in my package.lisp file I have :cffi in the use-list 2017-10-11T04:45:40Z jmercouris: beach: what is LispOS? https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS 2017-10-11T04:45:59Z jmercouris: Just an OS entirely written in Lisp? Like graphics and everything? 2017-10-11T04:47:09Z emaczen: paule32: try putting :cffi in the use-list of your defpackage 2017-10-11T04:47:38Z emaczen: paule32: Also my defcfuns look different 2017-10-11T04:47:51Z emaczen: (defcfun "cvNamedWindow" :int (name :string) (flags :int)) 2017-10-11T04:48:19Z paule32: emaczen: i don't work 2017-10-11T04:48:32Z emaczen: is an example, where "cvNamedWindow is the name of the foreign function with return type int, and two function parameters 2017-10-11T04:48:33Z paule32: i quickload :cffi 2017-10-11T04:48:34Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, that's the one. It is not as hard as most people think. SICL has first-class global environments which is the bases of it. McCLIM already exists for the graphics stuff. 2017-10-11T04:48:57Z paule32: https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2016/09/16/interop-mini-series-calling-c-and-c-code-from-common-lisp-using-cffi-part-1/ 2017-10-11T04:49:13Z beach: jmercouris: Making such a thing run on "bare metal" is the easy part. 2017-10-11T04:49:56Z beach: s/bases/basis/ 2017-10-11T04:51:47Z emaczen: paule32: I'm just reading the manual and the examples there 2017-10-11T04:51:55Z emaczen: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Built_002dIn-Types 2017-10-11T04:52:48Z paule32: what is a unbound variable? 2017-10-11T04:53:32Z emaczen: paule32: there is a function #'boundp which checks if a symbol is bound 2017-10-11T04:53:45Z emaczen: it is bound if it has a symbol-value 2017-10-11T04:54:13Z paule32: how can i bound libkallup 2017-10-11T04:54:14Z paule32: ? 2017-10-11T04:55:15Z emaczen: do the C functions kallup_init_app and kallup_exec_app not have any parameters? 2017-10-11T04:55:36Z beach: emaczen: You may be wasting your time. My experience is that paule32 asks a lot of basic questions, but then doesn't follow the advice that is being offered. 2017-10-11T04:56:01Z paule32: no 2017-10-11T04:56:21Z pillton: paule32: (load-foreign-library 'libkallup) 2017-10-11T04:56:37Z emaczen: paule32: I actually have no (load-foreign-library ...) form 2017-10-11T04:56:55Z emaczen: I have (use-foreign-library ...) 2017-10-11T04:57:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-11T04:57:42Z paule32: yes, no it works, thank you @pillton 2017-10-11T04:57:56Z paule32: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR 2017-10-11T04:58:01Z paule32: is that external? 2017-10-11T04:58:02Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-11T04:58:43Z paule32: ah i read: 2017-10-11T04:58:57Z paule32: invalid number of arguments: 1 2017-10-11T04:59:10Z paule32: halejulia 2017-10-11T04:59:31Z emaczen: beach: can you look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/358268 and let me know what you think *bytes* is and how I can get a common-lisp array? 2017-10-11T05:00:00Z jmercouris: beach: I don't want to know what the hard part is 2017-10-11T05:00:05Z jmercouris: beach: are you compiling to x86? 2017-10-11T05:00:11Z paule32: emaczen: think in "assembler" 2017-10-11T05:00:27Z paule32: there structs are chunk of types 2017-10-11T05:00:36Z paule32: with it's range 2017-10-11T05:00:48Z paule32: or sizeof(int) e.g. 2017-10-11T05:01:21Z beach: jmercouris: I can't do much with that code. Sorry. 2017-10-11T05:01:38Z jmercouris: beach: so what are you compiling to? How are you running on bare metal? 2017-10-11T05:01:46Z beach: jmercouris: x86-64 is the initial main target, yes. 2017-10-11T05:02:15Z jmercouris: beach: Maybe the messages are abit out of order here, what code are you talking about? 2017-10-11T05:02:34Z paule32: can sbcl create native machine code - or is it converted byte code? 2017-10-11T05:02:36Z beach: jmercouris: Oh, sorry, wrong person. It was for emaczen. 2017-10-11T05:02:51Z beach: emaczen: I can't do much with that code. Sorry. 2017-10-11T05:03:23Z beach: jmercouris: I am just saying that if you have a Common Lisp system that compiles to native code, like most high-performance Common Lisp systems do, then turning that into something bootable is not very hard. 2017-10-11T05:03:27Z jmercouris: beach: speaking of following advice offered, I made 99% of the changes to my code base from your suggestion 2017-10-11T05:03:27Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:03:36Z beach: Good. 2017-10-11T05:03:36Z emaczen: can anyone with CFFI experience tell me how to get a common-lisp array from *bytes* all I can get is different foreign pointers 2017-10-11T05:04:18Z jmercouris: beach: I still left some things global though, like the minibuffer access vars (for simplicity sake) and I didn't change my object accessors, they are verbose, but I think I prefer it that way 2017-10-11T05:04:57Z paule32: emaczen: pointers are "points" to address in memory 2017-10-11T05:05:08Z jmercouris: It's all kind of irrelevant though, I have to do some major rewrites soon, after the next minor version 2017-10-11T05:05:26Z paule32: then, if you allocate the right bytes, you can do anything pointers 2017-10-11T05:05:28Z beach: jmercouris: Contrary to common belief, most modern high-performance Common Lisp systems are not based on an interpreter, but on a compiler that generates native binary code. The common belief is based on the (wrong) idea that something interactive must be interpreted, and something compiled must generate a binary file. 2017-10-11T05:05:48Z jmercouris: beach: I thought only SBCL and ECL were compiled? 2017-10-11T05:06:02Z jmercouris: The other ones make like a "bytecode" which is sort of pseudo compiled no? 2017-10-11T05:06:10Z beach: jmercouris: CCL, LispWorks, Allegro, Clasp. 2017-10-11T05:06:28Z emaczen: paule32: then how can I use CFFI to convert the pointer into an array? 2017-10-11T05:06:32Z emaczen: common-lisp aray 2017-10-11T05:06:34Z emaczen: array* 2017-10-11T05:06:54Z emaczen: there is a function #'cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp 2017-10-11T05:07:00Z jmercouris: beach: You know that is interesting, I bet this belief stems from other languages that are interpreted but don't offer a compiler 2017-10-11T05:07:15Z jmercouris: If I had to guess, I would say most interpreted langauges do NOT offer a compiler 2017-10-11T05:07:25Z paule32: emaczen: as example: the string: "Hello" has 5 chars - with a postleading 0 so you can define a string of chars like in C "char buffer[100];" and you have a "static" string buffer 2017-10-11T05:07:31Z beach: jmercouris: There is no such thing as an "interpreted language". 2017-10-11T05:07:40Z jmercouris: beach: Yes there is :D 2017-10-11T05:07:43Z beach: jmercouris: No. 2017-10-11T05:07:44Z paule32: emaczen: in C/C++ strings ends with \0 2017-10-11T05:08:07Z beach: jmercouris: A language is a specification of what is acceptable. Whether things are compiled or interpreted is up to the implementation. 2017-10-11T05:08:26Z jmercouris: Ah yeah, that's what I meant 2017-10-11T05:08:36Z jmercouris: I was actually about to type 2017-10-11T05:08:44Z beach: jmercouris: C can be interpreted, for example. 2017-10-11T05:08:47Z jmercouris: "whether there exists a compiler depends on who is deciding to do the implementation" 2017-10-11T05:08:56Z emaczen: paule32: I know, my question is about using the CFFI to convert from the foreign pointer to a common-lisp array 2017-10-11T05:09:06Z jmercouris: that would be interesting, an interpreted version of C 2017-10-11T05:09:15Z jmercouris: I wonder what it would be like to have a C REPL 2017-10-11T05:09:30Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:09:38Z emaczen: it is also confusing because the data pointer is a union of different pointers 2017-10-11T05:09:47Z beach: jmercouris: Interpretation/compilation is a concept that is orthogonal to batch/interactive. 2017-10-11T05:09:48Z emaczen: jmercouris: download cling it is a c++ repl 2017-10-11T05:10:17Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah sure, I guess you COULD compile every time the user inputs something 2017-10-11T05:10:42Z beach: jmercouris: The (wrong) belief is based on the fact that most languages that are typically implemented with a compiler (like C) are also batch languages, and most languages that are interactive (like Python) are implemented with an interpreter. 2017-10-11T05:10:55Z beach: jmercouris: That is exactly what modern Common Lisp systems do. 2017-10-11T05:11:00Z jmercouris: emaczen: wow that is crazy 2017-10-11T05:11:13Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T05:11:28Z jmercouris: beach: I guess that is how I have always thought of it, thank you for clearing up that misconception in my head 2017-10-11T05:11:40Z beach: Sure. It's my job. 2017-10-11T05:11:49Z jmercouris: beach: are you a professor? 2017-10-11T05:11:51Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-11T05:11:57Z jmercouris: Ah okay, that makes sense then 2017-10-11T05:13:06Z Zhivago: Looking at a C interpreter can be educational. 2017-10-11T05:14:09Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:14:20Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:14:29Z paule32: emaczen: sort-some-numbers 2017-10-11T05:14:34Z clintm is now known as Guest55853 2017-10-11T05:14:41Z paule32: at my posted link 2017-10-11T05:15:02Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:15:02Z paule32: https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2016/09/16/interop-mini-series-calling-c-and-c-code-from-common-lisp-using-cffi-part-1/ 2017-10-11T05:15:05Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:15:28Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:15:40Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:15:40Z Guest55853 quit (Changing host) 2017-10-11T05:15:40Z Guest55853 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:16:31Z Guest55853 is now known as clintm 2017-10-11T05:19:30Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T05:20:17Z paule32: i have to, till later 2017-10-11T05:21:30Z ecraven quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T05:22:01Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:23:14Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:27:00Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:27:45Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T05:28:21Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:28:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:30:03Z javmx joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:32:27Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:32:35Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-11T05:38:07Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T05:40:23Z emaczen: can someone provide an example of cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp? 2017-10-11T05:41:49Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:42:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T05:45:24Z text1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T05:47:02Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:47:08Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T05:47:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:49:32Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T05:50:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:51:57Z emma quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T05:52:31Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:53:27Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:54:35Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:54:54Z Oddity quit 2017-10-11T05:56:49Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T05:57:11Z yxabc quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2017-10-11T05:58:14Z clintm: Do any of you do regular work in windows in one of the free compilers, and if so which one? I've tried sbcl, ccl, ecl, and mkcl, and they all have issues. 2017-10-11T06:00:00Z Zhivago: All things have issues, for a suitable definition of issue. 2017-10-11T06:00:16Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:00:40Z beach: clintm: Buy a commercial Common Lisp system, like LispWorks or Allegro. 2017-10-11T06:01:03Z clintm: beach: I'm typing the email to request an eval license of LW right now. 2017-10-11T06:02:09Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:06:12Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-11T06:08:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T06:08:55Z javmx: https://portacle.github.io/ 2017-10-11T06:09:34Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:11:00Z beach: javmx: What about it? 2017-10-11T06:11:03Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T06:11:49Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:12:03Z javmx: clintm didn't mention these 2017-10-11T06:12:14Z Shinmera: He did, since Portacle uses SBCL. 2017-10-11T06:12:32Z javmx: mmm... right 2017-10-11T06:13:40Z clintm: Maybe I'm doing things wrong. I'm totally open to that. I hit some sort of deadlock in sbcl (i got the latest dist., but didn't rebuild it), and I can't get ccl to (quit) after loading a system. 2017-10-11T06:14:02Z Shinmera: Can't say I've encountered that before. 2017-10-11T06:14:57Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:22:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:22:39Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T06:32:36Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T06:32:46Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:33:02Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:33:02Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:33:24Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:33:51Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:34:17Z hajovonta: hello 2017-10-11T06:34:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:35:13Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:35:32Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:36:08Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:37:05Z ecraven joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:37:21Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:37:32Z beach: Hello hajovonta. 2017-10-11T06:38:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:39:57Z shka_: hey, hey, hey 2017-10-11T06:41:15Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:41:24Z beach: shka_: Non-proper nouns in singular form must usually take an article in English. You have tons of such instances in your documentation. Do you want to fix them first, or do you want me to find all of them for you. 2017-10-11T06:41:25Z beach: ? 2017-10-11T06:42:14Z shka_: so you did read my docs :D 2017-10-11T06:42:27Z shka_: it is so kind of you 2017-10-11T06:42:39Z beach: I started, but I found myself writing an item for each instance mentioned above, and it got boring. 2017-10-11T06:43:02Z beach: ... hence my question. 2017-10-11T06:43:17Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:43:17Z shka_: do you happen to have your list? 2017-10-11T06:43:44Z beach: I have a list of all the occurrences in the first section. Do you want me to email it to you? 2017-10-11T06:44:06Z shka_: yes, it would be helpful 2017-10-11T06:44:17Z beach: I need your email address for that. 2017-10-11T06:44:31Z shka_: sirherrbatka at gmail dot com 2017-10-11T06:45:16Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T06:45:18Z shka_: as for your question, obviously, you are wasting your time and in order to improve my skills i have to do it myself 2017-10-11T06:45:57Z shka_: so i would rather fix this whole class of issues first 2017-10-11T06:46:06Z beach: Well, it would be easier on me (and other readers), if you made a pass over the entire thing and fixed those occurrences. 2017-10-11T06:46:21Z beach: ... 'cause there are lots of them. 2017-10-11T06:47:04Z shka_: well, english is not my strong point, obviously 2017-10-11T06:47:05Z beach: Polish is your native language, right? It seems like other speakers of Polish have the same problem. 2017-10-11T06:47:18Z shka_: yes 2017-10-11T06:47:34Z beach: I understand there is a free version of Grammarly. 2017-10-11T06:47:35Z shka_: and you wanna know the funny part? 2017-10-11T06:47:41Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-11T06:47:44Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:47:57Z shka_: i would have not known this without you 2017-10-11T06:49:16Z beach: Interesting. I am saying that because "knowing" is one thing, and being able to actually use it is another. I "know" the difference between infinitive and participle in French, but I often make the mistake anyway. 2017-10-11T06:49:27Z shka_: malice already pointed toward grammarly 2017-10-11T06:49:44Z shka_: i did not test it (yet) 2017-10-11T06:49:51Z shka_: hopefully it is actually good 2017-10-11T06:49:53Z beach: ... so I have to read what I wrote very carefully, without trying to understand it. Just to check the grammar. 2017-10-11T06:50:07Z beach: The product is great apparently. I don't know about the free version. 2017-10-11T06:50:22Z beach: It is written in Common Lisp, I hear. 2017-10-11T06:50:30Z shka_: oh 2017-10-11T06:50:31Z shka_: neat! 2017-10-11T06:51:07Z shka_: perhaps i can consider buying commercial if it is great 2017-10-11T06:51:15Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:51:20Z beach: Maybe. I don't know how much it costs. 2017-10-11T06:51:20Z shka_: because my english is not any good 2017-10-11T06:51:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:51:44Z beach: We need a free grammar checker written in Common Lisp, but that would be another biggish project. 2017-10-11T06:52:21Z javmx quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T06:52:28Z shka_: it sounds more prologish to be honest 2017-10-11T06:52:53Z shka_: anyway, thank you once again for taking your time 2017-10-11T06:52:56Z beach: Not necessarily. There is some interesting parsing technology that can be used. 2017-10-11T06:53:17Z beach: shka_: Sure. I'll continue if you like, but it is going to take some time. 2017-10-11T06:53:19Z shka_: i assure you that this will not be in vein :-) 2017-10-11T06:53:22Z beach: Did you receive my email? 2017-10-11T06:53:34Z beach: Yes, I consider it an investment. :) 2017-10-11T06:54:02Z shka_: checking 2017-10-11T06:54:08Z shka_: yup 2017-10-11T06:54:32Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:54:35Z shka_: splendid 2017-10-11T06:55:11Z beach: It's a bit long. Sorry about that. 2017-10-11T06:55:21Z beach: ... and it's just for one section. 2017-10-11T06:55:24Z shka_: beach: actually, i would rather fix this thing to not make you cringe all the time 2017-10-11T06:55:52Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T06:55:53Z beach: That would be great. Then I can spend more time on the real issues in a fixed-up version. 2017-10-11T06:56:03Z shka_: agreed 2017-10-11T06:56:31Z shka_: well, then i will work on that 2017-10-11T06:56:38Z shka_: not today, perhaps tomorrow 2017-10-11T06:56:42Z beach: Great! 2017-10-11T06:57:24Z clintm: :( I thought grammarly was at least partially implemented in CL. From the looks of the open positions, it's java these days. 2017-10-11T06:57:33Z shka_: and i have to pretend to be professional data scientist, so i have to go ;-) 2017-10-11T06:57:37Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T06:58:30Z beach: clintm: That could be. It wouldn't be the first time ignorant programmers decide to rewrite software, rather than fixing their ignorance by learning the language. 2017-10-11T06:58:49Z Zhivago: Google docs are reasonably good at grammar checking, also. 2017-10-11T06:59:02Z beach: Oh? Interesting. 2017-10-11T07:02:25Z samebchase joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:02:57Z hajovonta: well, CL is good for quick prototyping of data structures and ideas. But when the product grows, the development gets more serious. I mean, the company hires more people to work on the software, development loops are established and so on. I guess there are areas where CL is not suitable for the current trendy workflows and practices. 2017-10-11T07:03:04Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:03:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T07:04:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T07:04:36Z hajovonta: don't get me wrong, I always start my projects in CL. But now I'm a situation where my project is really usable and my manager wants me to figure it out how can other people use it. 2017-10-11T07:05:44Z samebchase left #lisp 2017-10-11T07:06:18Z hajovonta: And the simple answer is: learn Emacs and CL, then several libraries like Hunchentoot or Smackjack, then have it configured like this, and you are good to go. 2017-10-11T07:06:24Z loke: hajovonta: Those "trendy" workflows are less efficient though. 2017-10-11T07:06:25Z hajovonta: Maybe I need to change it 2017-10-11T07:06:43Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:07:09Z hajovonta: loke: yes, when several people are working on the project, the workflow needs to be such that the stupider people can use it 2017-10-11T07:07:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T07:08:07Z samebchase joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:08:57Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T07:09:14Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:09:41Z hajovonta: but this "simple" approach might be very hard for others, so I think great CL projects are rewritten in another language after a while, because there are not so many CL programmers out there 2017-10-11T07:10:52Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:10:53Z hajovonta: also, where CL really shines, is the quick prototyping and incremental compiling just to name a few, and after the idea is polished and implemented, it's not that hard to rewrite it 2017-10-11T07:11:09Z hajovonta: but after the rewrite, it becomes harder to maintain it and develop it further 2017-10-11T07:11:21Z hajovonta: I'm not certain that this fact is taken into account 2017-10-11T07:11:41Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T07:11:52Z Shinmera: "It's not that hard to rewrite" is a wrong assessment in my opinion 2017-10-11T07:12:11Z hajovonta: Shinmera: can't apply to all projects 2017-10-11T07:12:36Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T07:12:43Z hajovonta: Shinmera: I mean when the best approach is already worked out in CL, then that approach can be relatively easily implemented in other languages 2017-10-11T07:13:02Z Shinmera: "relatively easy" 2017-10-11T07:13:32Z hajovonta: more easily than having to work the approach out in that other language from the beginning 2017-10-11T07:13:36Z hajovonta: :) 2017-10-11T07:13:48Z Shinmera: That still does not warrant rewriting it rather than training people. 2017-10-11T07:14:23Z hajovonta: I agree. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-11T11:21:57Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T11:22:47Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T11:23:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:26:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:33:13Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:35:30Z salva0 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:36:51Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:43:56Z paule32: hello re 2017-10-11T11:43:59Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358310 2017-10-11T11:44:06Z paule32: is that correct? 2017-10-11T11:44:17Z paule32: i would like have a class + members 2017-10-11T11:48:14Z salva0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T11:48:27Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T11:48:28Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:56:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T11:57:24Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:58:41Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:59:29Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-11T11:59:57Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T12:01:50Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:02:45Z panji quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-11T12:03:13Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T12:08:12Z zhormistr joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:10:14Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T12:14:34Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:15:20Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-11T12:15:36Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:23:24Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:29:07Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:32:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T12:33:28Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:35:05Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:35:41Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T12:35:51Z SAL9000_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:40:53Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-10-11T12:41:08Z alexmlw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T12:43:12Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:43:35Z SAL9000_ is now known as SAL9000 2017-10-11T12:44:07Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T12:46:11Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:49:05Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T12:49:18Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:53:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T12:56:08Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:56:17Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-11T12:57:56Z SAL9000_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T12:59:58Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-11T13:01:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:01:37Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:03:35Z pmetzger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:03:58Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:04:29Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:05:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:06:19Z dlowe: paule32: that looks correct. you might want to just specify &key if you aren't going to use NAME 2017-10-11T13:06:40Z SAL9000_ is now known as SAL9000 2017-10-11T13:09:16Z beach: dlowe: It looks like shit. Wrong spacing, dangling parentheses, wrong number of semicolons, form without side effects in a context of no value, invalid form. All in 10 lines of code or so. But like I said, paule32 is not known to follow advice. 2017-10-11T13:09:39Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:10:02Z clintm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T13:11:14Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:11:27Z paule32: dlowe: i get error 2017-10-11T13:11:29Z paule32: ; caught STYLE-WARNING: 2017-10-11T13:11:29Z paule32: ; Undefined alien: "kallup_exec_app" 2017-10-11T13:11:51Z dlowe: that's not an error. 2017-10-11T13:11:57Z dlowe: it's a style warning 2017-10-11T13:12:06Z paule32: ok 2017-10-11T13:12:06Z dlowe: beach: I didn't say it looked good :p 2017-10-11T13:12:24Z paule32: how can i fix that dlowe 2017-10-11T13:13:23Z Josh_2: beach: to the point as always! 2017-10-11T13:13:40Z dlowe: paule32: define the alien function kallup_exec_app somehow 2017-10-11T13:14:18Z dlowe: actually, there is one error in there. the ' should be on the parenthesis, not on 'kallup-exec-app 2017-10-11T13:14:20Z paule32: dlowe: it is dummy ? 2017-10-11T13:14:49Z dlowe: paule32: well, it's an undefined dummy function, so you're going to get an error. 2017-10-11T13:15:24Z paule32: but, i did: (defcfun ("kallup_exec_app" kallup-exec-app) :int) 2017-10-11T13:15:33Z paule32: cffi 2017-10-11T13:15:50Z dlowe: that's a declaration, not a definition (despite the DEF*) 2017-10-11T13:16:13Z dlowe: you still need to load the necessary C library 2017-10-11T13:16:59Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:17:06Z pmetzger quit 2017-10-11T13:17:41Z Nomikos left #lisp 2017-10-11T13:20:27Z paule32: dlowe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358310#1 2017-10-11T13:21:18Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-10-11T13:21:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:21:41Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:27:19Z Josh_2: paule32: You don't need to drop parens onto the next line 2017-10-11T13:27:59Z beach: Josh_2: He shouldn't. But he has been told this many many times. 2017-10-11T13:28:37Z Josh_2: Look weird 2017-10-11T13:28:39Z Josh_2: looks* 2017-10-11T13:29:14Z Josh_2: what is the print-info) at the end :O 2017-10-11T13:29:51Z dlowe: paule32: beats me. You might have to stare at it and think hard. 2017-10-11T13:30:05Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:30:16Z Josh_2: and random ;; on newlines. Makes the crap I write look nice 2017-10-11T13:30:41Z dlowe doesn't judge. 2017-10-11T13:31:02Z dlowe: code is all awful. It's just a matter of degree. 2017-10-11T13:31:07Z Bike: does libkallup actually declare and export the symbol, and have a function for it? 2017-10-11T13:31:29Z Josh_2: Personally as much as beach tearing into everything I do, it's actually very beneficial to have someone crap on your code. As long as they show you how to do it properly 2017-10-11T13:31:29Z paule32: symbols in .so are ok 2017-10-11T13:31:55Z dlowe: code is especially awful when you're trying to figure something out and are just trying to get the one thing working 2017-10-11T13:31:58Z nachoba joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:32:04Z Josh_2: Story of my life dlowe 2017-10-11T13:32:16Z Bike: I kind of don't believe you. 2017-10-11T13:33:31Z paule32: Josh_2: (defun print-info() (print (kallup-init-app))) ; work 2017-10-11T13:34:25Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:34:38Z paule32: void kallup_init_app(void) { printf("Hello World!\n"); } 2017-10-11T13:35:41Z Bike: okay, but you were complaining about kallup-exec-app, no? 2017-10-11T13:35:49Z paule32: i forget to pre paren the last line in paste 2017-10-11T13:36:00Z paule32: yes Bike 2017-10-11T13:36:23Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:37:35Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T13:38:11Z Bike: so... do you have kallup_exec_app? 2017-10-11T13:38:28Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358310#2 2017-10-11T13:39:33Z Bike: does libkallup define kallup_exec_app. 2017-10-11T13:39:37Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358310#3 2017-10-11T13:40:08Z Bike: so no, it has KALLUP_exec_app. try lowercasing it? 2017-10-11T13:40:23Z paule32: ok 2017-10-11T13:40:32Z paule32: arg 2017-10-11T13:40:33Z paule32: damm 2017-10-11T13:41:34Z Bike: What? 2017-10-11T13:42:00Z paule32: it work, thank you Bike 2017-10-11T13:42:03Z paule32: Hello World! 2017-10-11T13:42:03Z paule32: 0 2017-10-11T13:42:03Z paule32: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0072E550) 2017-10-11T13:42:28Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T13:43:37Z Bike: next time please work out something like that on your own. it should have been kind of obvious, and with the information you chose to share with us, due to your belief that it was some kind of lisp problem, we couldn't have noticed it. 2017-10-11T13:43:49Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T13:44:06Z paule32: sorry 2017-10-11T13:44:59Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:47:25Z Xach: Anyone have time & inclination to help me troubleshoot a weird problem I'm having with (I think) UIOP 3.3.0? 2017-10-11T13:47:36Z Xach: requirements: recent sbcl, quicklisp 2017-10-11T13:49:03Z Xach: Basically trying to see if a weird looping problem I'm seeing is a local issue or can be reproduced easily. 2017-10-11T13:49:24Z shka: Xach: i am at work, but i have fresh sbcl 2017-10-11T13:49:42Z shka: if this just involves running test, it shouldn't take much time 2017-10-11T13:49:55Z Xach: shka: can you fetch lhttps://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/archives/uiop.tar.gz and put it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ ? 2017-10-11T13:49:59Z Xach: sorry, no L 2017-10-11T13:50:03Z Xach: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/archives/uiop.tar.gz is the URL 2017-10-11T13:50:03Z shka: sure 2017-10-11T13:50:08Z shka: should i load it? 2017-10-11T13:50:29Z Xach: Not yet - now clear your cache with rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ and (ql:quickload "hu.dwim.presentation" :verbose t) 2017-10-11T13:50:36Z shka: ok 2017-10-11T13:50:40Z shka: give me a minute 2017-10-11T13:50:58Z Xach: What I observe is certain (maybe all?) files in uiop being recompiled over and over and over again. 2017-10-11T13:51:26Z dlowe: doesn't the hu.dwim stuff have its own hu.dwim.asdf? 2017-10-11T13:51:27Z jackdaniel: ah, I can provide some insight into that 2017-10-11T13:51:48Z jackdaniel: ASDF has UIOP registered as preregistered-system 2017-10-11T13:52:02Z jackdaniel: if any other system has dependency on UIOP 2017-10-11T13:52:21Z jackdaniel: UIOP will be loaded as a system (because ASDF doesn't treat preloaded-systems as loaded) 2017-10-11T13:52:33Z Xach: Ok... 2017-10-11T13:52:42Z jackdaniel: thanks to that it is possible to update UIOP version even on older ASDFs 2017-10-11T13:52:45Z Xach: Does that mean it must load over and over and over? 2017-10-11T13:52:49Z jackdaniel: one of bad side-effects of having UIOP bundled with ASDF 2017-10-11T13:53:23Z jackdaniel: I think that it will load over again on each new session, because UIOP is preloaded, so found system definition is found somewhere-else (hence redefinition warnings) 2017-10-11T13:53:31Z jackdaniel: but I think it doesn't recompile UIOP on each reload 2017-10-11T13:53:43Z shka: Xach: i assume that you no longer require any assistance? 2017-10-11T13:54:13Z shka: btw, yes it recompiles 2017-10-11T13:54:20Z Xach: shka: recompiles uiop stuff over and over and over? 2017-10-11T13:54:33Z jackdaniel: correct solution to that problem would be naming UIOP system and package (when bundled with asdf) something like ASDF/UIOP, so it is treated differently than UIOP library 2017-10-11T13:54:41Z Xach: jackdaniel: this seems to be a new behavior, because prior to 3.3.0 it did not work this way 2017-10-11T13:54:56Z shka: Xach: it eventually finished 2017-10-11T13:55:08Z jackdaniel: hm, my insight comes from development on 3.1.7, maybe it is not related 2017-10-11T13:55:12Z jackdaniel: to your problem 2017-10-11T13:55:12Z shka: or rather "finished" 2017-10-11T13:55:18Z jackdaniel: or maybe a regression 2017-10-11T13:55:22Z Xach: shka: really? for me it took almost 40 minutes 2017-10-11T13:55:24Z shka: there is any error at the end 2017-10-11T13:55:43Z shka: oh, sorry, it continues 2017-10-11T13:56:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:57:51Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-11T13:59:39Z shka: Xach: it compiles uiop multiple times 2017-10-11T13:59:56Z Xach: Ok, thanks for the confirmation. 2017-10-11T14:00:14Z shka: before each dependency for this dwim project as it seems? 2017-10-11T14:01:43Z shka: anyway, i can't finish compiliation because some C header is missing 2017-10-11T14:02:04Z shka: but it repeats compilation of uiop 2017-10-11T14:02:09Z Xach: ok, thanks 2017-10-11T14:02:48Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T14:04:06Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:05:07Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:05:10Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T14:05:46Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:09:41Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:09:52Z paule32: that is my smallest program ever coded in Lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358310#4 2017-10-11T14:10:18Z paule32: Lisp rocks :-) 2017-10-11T14:11:28Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T14:15:48Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:15:55Z paule32: afk, because food buying ... 2017-10-11T14:17:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:19:09Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-11T14:19:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:20:53Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:21:50Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:22:48Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-11T14:23:10Z nachoba_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:24:08Z nachoba quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:24:57Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:25:22Z manny8888 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T14:27:32Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T14:28:36Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:29:42Z nachoba_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:29:45Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:29:59Z manny8888_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T14:30:22Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:31:51Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:32:13Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:34:06Z hajovonta: how can I open a second SBCL repl ? 2017-10-11T14:34:14Z hajovonta: in emacs 2017-10-11T14:34:53Z Bike: I think "M-x slime" and then answering yes you want to create a second *inferior-lisp* does it. 2017-10-11T14:35:19Z jackdaniel: that will create second inferior lisp (it doesn't ask) 2017-10-11T14:35:23Z hajovonta: but does that start another sbcl instance? 2017-10-11T14:35:23Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:35:38Z Bike: a second inferior lisp means another instance. 2017-10-11T14:35:40Z hajovonta: i want to use the existing lisp image but need a second repl 2017-10-11T14:35:49Z antoszka: yes, an "inferior lisp" is an instance, that emacs has control of 2017-10-11T14:35:50Z Bike: oh! oh, i see 2017-10-11T14:36:27Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:36:36Z jackdaniel: hajovonta: I think that there was slime-mrepl contrib 2017-10-11T14:36:37Z Bike: i think the mrepl contrib does that, but it might not work. 2017-10-11T14:36:39Z antoszka: hajovonta: so that's *not* another instance, but you'd like to reuse the same instance/image with another swank listener? 2017-10-11T14:36:59Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:37:08Z hajovonta: yes 2017-10-11T14:37:19Z hajovonta: i somehow managed to do it but can't reproduce :) 2017-10-11T14:37:43Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:38:00Z antoszka: TBH, I've never tried. What's your use-case? 2017-10-11T14:40:19Z jackdaniel: hajovonta: one way to do that is 2017-10-11T14:40:26Z jackdaniel: (swank::create-server ) 2017-10-11T14:40:30Z jackdaniel: and M-x slime-connect 2017-10-11T14:40:37Z jackdaniel: and don't close existing connection 2017-10-11T14:40:56Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:40:58Z jackdaniel: then you should have two repls 2017-10-11T14:41:01Z nowolfer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:41:20Z jackdaniel: C-c C-x n in repl window will change the connection 2017-10-11T14:41:40Z hajovonta: sounds good 2017-10-11T14:41:46Z hajovonta: i actually have this 2017-10-11T14:41:59Z hajovonta: maybe i accidentally hit the shortcut that opens the connection 2017-10-11T14:42:10Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:42:11Z hajovonta: thanks 2017-10-11T14:42:19Z nowolfer joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:42:24Z jackdaniel: btw, you want to secure that port to not be accessible from outside 2017-10-11T14:42:29Z jackdaniel: sure 2017-10-11T14:42:46Z hajovonta: it's on a secure intranet, but yes, certainly 2017-10-11T14:44:13Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:46:11Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:51:31Z nachoba joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:53:01Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T14:53:34Z zhormistr quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-11T14:57:01Z ghull joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:57:30Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:57:50Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-11T14:58:22Z paule32: given a string "1234" 2017-10-11T14:58:37Z paule32: given a math operator "+" 2017-10-11T14:59:02Z paule32: given a second string "2223834" 2017-10-11T14:59:29Z paule32: how can i calculate these two strings to one string as math result 2017-10-11T15:00:18Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-11T15:00:37Z jackdaniel: (try (do "1234") (it "+") (yourself "2223834")) ; ← one of many possible solutions (arguably the best one) 2017-10-11T15:01:10Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-11T15:01:44Z ghull quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T15:01:47Z Bike: you can get symbols from strings with find-symbol, and integers from strings with parse-integer. 2017-10-11T15:01:53Z paule32: first, i would count the numbers from right to left 2017-10-11T15:02:13Z dlowe: paule32: there's an entire field of programming called parsing that you should read up on 2017-10-11T15:03:01Z jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.4.0, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 2017-10-11T15:04:45Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-11T15:05:42Z jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | SBCL 1.4.0, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 2017-10-11T15:08:15Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:11:10Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:11:32Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:11:46Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-11T15:17:06Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T15:17:19Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T15:18:21Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T15:18:34Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:19:24Z PPop joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:21:05Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T15:22:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T15:25:12Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T15:25:32Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:26:24Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:26:52Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T15:27:59Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T15:28:14Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:29:27Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:33:24Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-11T15:36:12Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T15:37:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:41:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:46:24Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:47:01Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T15:48:05Z emaczen`: with CFFI since pointers=arrays shouldn't I be able to call #'cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp on every pointer? 2017-10-11T15:48:06Z minion: emaczen`, memo from ferada: static variables via jss are like #"ClassName.fieldName" 2017-10-11T15:48:06Z minion: emaczen`, memo from ferada: jstatic is for static methods; if it doesn't find the method then the signature didn't match; re the jna warnings, you do have jna loaded? after (require 'jna) the call (jclass "com.sun.jna.Native") should give you something 2017-10-11T15:48:27Z manny8888_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-11T15:48:40Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:48:56Z |3b| joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:49:11Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:49:18Z onehrxn_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:52:13Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T15:52:22Z onehrxn_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-11T15:53:29Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:54:01Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-10-11T15:58:15Z ioa quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-11T16:00:41Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:04:13Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:04:17Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:05:48Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:09:22Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:10:33Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:13:09Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:18:32Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-10-11T16:19:30Z nika quit 2017-10-11T16:21:52Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T16:22:13Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:27:25Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T16:28:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:28:49Z thblt joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:29:52Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T16:29:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:31:58Z thblt left #lisp 2017-10-11T16:32:31Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:36:01Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:37:27Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:37:28Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T16:37:39Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:39:47Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:42:43Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-11T16:43:10Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:43:16Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:43:44Z nachoba_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:44:53Z xunplini joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:45:07Z xunplini left #lisp 2017-10-11T16:45:32Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:46:44Z nachoba quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:47:26Z Denommus quit (Quit: rebooting) 2017-10-11T16:48:00Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:48:25Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:52:09Z phf joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:53:29Z phf: hello, does anybody know if you can make capi's browser-pane (lispworks) display html explicitly, without doing (..-navigate url)? 2017-10-11T16:54:13Z phoe_: phf: best ask on LispWorks's forums - they'll be able to answer CAPI questions much quicker 2017-10-11T16:54:22Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-11T16:54:47Z phoe_: they have a community forum specialized for LW, where Freenode's much more specialized in general standard CL questions and those related to free/open implementations 2017-10-11T16:55:08Z tax joined #lisp 2017-10-11T16:55:57Z phf: phoe_: i like to test the limit of #lisp's question answering abilities. fwiw i get roughly the same quality of answers for free/open implementations as i do for commercial ones, that is to say "low" 2017-10-11T16:56:23Z beach: phf: I think that is very unfair. 2017-10-11T16:56:44Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-11T16:56:52Z beach: phf: Most questions about free implementations are answered to the best ability of the participants. 2017-10-11T16:56:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-11T16:57:17Z beach: phf: But phoe is right, freenode is about FLOSS software. 2017-10-11T16:58:26Z beach: phf: Contrary to common belief, #lisp is not a "Lisp support channel". It is a forum for people who use and develop Common Lisp software, so its main purpose is not to answer questions about implementations. 2017-10-11T16:58:56Z beach: phf: For example #sbcl can be used for questions related to SBCL. 2017-10-11T17:00:08Z beach: phf: What you said is quite insulting to many people who spend a lot of time trying to help out whenever someone needs it. 2017-10-11T17:02:22Z nachoba_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T17:03:09Z phf: beach: well, i used to spend time on #lisp answering questions, and being a professional lisp developer i would suspect that my answers were worthwhile. i find that the s/n has dropped significantly, but that's ~my~ impressions, and that's why i don't lurk here. i periodically drop by to ask questions though, which is selfish of me, but i also want to see if there's perhaps some change in the landscape 2017-10-11T17:03:33Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:04:25Z Bike: i don't think you're going to determine that very well from brief "tests" 2017-10-11T17:04:30Z phf: beach: i appreciate all the work ~you~ and others that i can name specifically did for #lisp and lisp community though. i also apologize for baiting. an answer "go elsewhere" is mildly annoying though, because i know for a fact there are people who do professional lispworks dev lurking here 2017-10-11T17:06:38Z phf: Bike: i agree, i usually wait though until i find the answer to then also answer my own question in case anyone was curious, and/or reading the logs 2017-10-11T17:06:40Z jackdaniel: being "tested" is mildly annoying as well 2017-10-11T17:07:10Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:07:21Z jackdaniel: paid software comes with paid support, free software has to depend on people donating their free time 2017-10-11T17:08:17Z aindilis` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T17:08:20Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T17:09:15Z Bike: yeah, i figure if you /have/ lispworks you have more dedicated resources 2017-10-11T17:12:08Z phf: Bike: well, i'm not talking about ~quality of support~ here, but rather the s/n. it would be entirely silly of me to come to #lisp and expect correct answer! 2017-10-11T17:12:21Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-11T17:13:00Z jackdaniel: hard to put *this* discussion in signal basket either ,) 2017-10-11T17:14:45Z phf: well, in that case i will then just add that if the only thing you have in your browser widget is a url browsing function, then adding a local webserver and hosting ad hoc pages is one solution, but i'd like it to be that of last resort.. 2017-10-11T17:18:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:18:41Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-11T17:22:32Z drmeister: I was looking at the Google paper on energy efficiency of different languages paper again. 2017-10-11T17:23:03Z drmeister: The guy who wrote the Lisp (using SBCL) examples took a lot of pains to improve performance. 2017-10-11T17:23:05Z drmeister: https://github.com/greensoftwarelab/Energy-Languages/blob/master/Lisp/mandelbrot/mandelbrot.lisp 2017-10-11T17:23:14Z drmeister: That's the mandelbrot code 2017-10-11T17:23:42Z drmeister: There's a lot of #+x86 feature specific code 2017-10-11T17:24:02Z drmeister: And things like: #+x86-64(declaim (inline vops::complex-double-float/sse-*)) 2017-10-11T17:24:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T17:26:11Z phoe_: He did. Wow. 2017-10-11T17:27:11Z drmeister: Kudos to the programmer and... is this what needs to be done to get the 'ultimate' in performance? 2017-10-11T17:28:11Z drmeister: I like this paper because it justifies my entire world view. 2017-10-11T17:28:37Z drmeister: Lisp is the fastest, most efficient dynamic language - much, much better than Python. 2017-10-11T17:31:01Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:32:48Z phoe_: drmeister: the "ultimate" in performance is basically either writing as close to compiler-optimized routines as you can or writing as close to assembly as you can 2017-10-11T17:32:59Z phoe_: and all of that comes with a lot of thought required. 2017-10-11T17:33:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:33:29Z phoe_: and effort, and lack of introspection and debuggability. 2017-10-11T17:38:29Z Harag: I have never really used trace but tonight I need to get to grips with it, I started (tried in repl and slime emacs menus) a trace on a function called by an a hunchentoot page but I am not seeing any output of the trace anywhere. What would "block" trace output to repl or slime trace buffer? 2017-10-11T17:38:42Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T17:39:13Z phoe_: Harag: the function not being called 2017-10-11T17:39:22Z phoe_: is trace working for anything else? 2017-10-11T17:39:27Z phoe_: (trace +) (+ 2 2) 2017-10-11T17:39:29Z Harag: phoe: I have a break in the function and its is being called 2017-10-11T17:39:33Z phoe_: hm 2017-10-11T17:39:48Z phoe_: clhs *trace-output* 2017-10-11T17:39:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm 2017-10-11T17:39:53Z Harag: 0: (+ 3 4) 2017-10-11T17:39:53Z Harag: 0: + returned 7 2017-10-11T17:40:53Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T17:40:59Z phoe_: perhaps the function call was inlined and is therefore untraceable. 2017-10-11T17:41:27Z phoe_: wnat are the optimization settings that you compiled your code with? 2017-10-11T17:41:48Z Harag: (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) 2017-10-11T17:42:04Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:42:46Z phoe_: drmeister: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/program.php?test=mandelbrot&lang=sbcl&id=3 is (almost) completely portable though and it's twice as slow as the version you linked. 2017-10-11T17:42:52Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:43:24Z phoe_: Harag: can you DECLAIM NOTINLINE the function that you are trying to trace and recompile the callers of that function? 2017-10-11T17:43:52Z phf: Harag: you want to look into *inferior-lisp* buffer, that's where the trace is most likely being output 2017-10-11T17:44:49Z phoe_: actually, no - I have all of my trace-output in the slime repl. 2017-10-11T17:45:13Z phoe_ bbl 2017-10-11T17:46:39Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T17:48:02Z phf: Harag: your hunchentoot handlers are running in own threads, where various output streams are ~not~ bound to the swank ones, so you want to look at the buffer where the actual sbcl process output goes 2017-10-11T17:48:03Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:48:10Z Harag: phf: aaah you are right that is where it is ending up 2017-10-11T17:48:35Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:51:22Z _death: may consider logging (say using log4cl) rather than tracing in this scenario 2017-10-11T17:54:04Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:54:15Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-10-11T17:56:43Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-11T17:56:43Z Harag: that trace out put is a real let down two lines and the out put of the function if I want to see whats going on inside do I have to trace every one of the functions used inside it? 2017-10-11T17:59:55Z Harag: _death: yeah that would be a longer term solution I suppose, thanx will book mark and investigate 2017-10-11T18:00:12Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:00:19Z Harag: a well I suppose its back to old break for tonight 2017-10-11T18:03:59Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T18:04:00Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T18:04:02Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-11T18:04:14Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:10:19Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:12:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T18:15:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:20:07Z tmc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T18:22:26Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:25:36Z shwouchk joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:29:41Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T18:37:04Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:37:04Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:37:28Z Ven is now known as Guest75286 2017-10-11T18:38:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T18:38:57Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T18:41:32Z Guest75286 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T18:42:49Z DingoSaar quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T18:43:48Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:45:30Z phoe_: Harag: yes - trace only shows function calls with arguments and their return values 2017-10-11T18:45:34Z phoe_: you might prefer STEP instead 2017-10-11T18:45:41Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T18:46:30Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:54:26Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-10-11T18:58:07Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T19:00:24Z akovalenko joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:02:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:06:35Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:06:54Z nowhere_man quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-11T19:09:49Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:10:31Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:11:20Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:11:21Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T19:15:32Z cyberlard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T19:16:26Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:18:35Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T19:18:53Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:19:37Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T19:19:51Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T19:22:01Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:30:47Z rocx quit (Quit: class) 2017-10-11T19:35:29Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T19:36:38Z phf: found a mac specific way to throw a webkit window up with lispworks and render an arbitrary string http://paste.lisp.org/+7OHR i distilled it from examples/objc/web-kit.lisp. good enough for me 2017-10-11T19:39:17Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:40:01Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:41:20Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:43:20Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:43:49Z didi joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:44:01Z didi: Is there a function to convert an integer to an array of bits? 2017-10-11T19:45:09Z Bike: an actual array? No. 2017-10-11T19:45:24Z didi: A list maybe? 2017-10-11T19:45:27Z Bike: but you can treat integers as vectors of bits in a few ways. 2017-10-11T19:46:00Z didi: Bike: I've been using LOOP and LOGBITP. Maybe there is a better way? 2017-10-11T19:46:19Z Bike: logbitp is basically it 2017-10-11T19:46:20Z les quit (Quit: "") 2017-10-11T19:46:23Z Bike: what are you trying to do particularly 2017-10-11T19:46:25Z dlowe: (read-from-string (format nil "#*~b" num)) ;) 2017-10-11T19:46:49Z didi: Bike: I am using an integer to represent my data and I want to get to specific bits. 2017-10-11T19:47:06Z _death: ldb is useful for that 2017-10-11T19:47:09Z didi: dlowe: Uh, cool. 2017-10-11T19:47:11Z dlowe: why not just keep it as an integer? 2017-10-11T19:47:13Z Bike: that's what logbitp does. 2017-10-11T19:47:21Z didi: dlowe: Indeed. Just to print it. 2017-10-11T19:47:34Z PPop: didi: what problems do you have with just treating integers as a sequence of bits? 2017-10-11T19:47:43Z dlowe: if you just want to print it, use format and ~b 2017-10-11T19:47:49Z didi: So I can do (format t "~{~A ... ~}" ...) 2017-10-11T19:48:13Z didi: PPop: A sequence of true and false values. 2017-10-11T19:49:09Z didi: Thank you, everyone. 2017-10-11T19:49:53Z _death: may be cute, but converting to a string in order to convert it to a bit vector is not what I'd consider good code.. note dlowe's smily 2017-10-11T19:50:09Z didi: Ah... I didn't notice it. 2017-10-11T19:50:31Z Bike: so you want to have 7 and get T T T printed? 2017-10-11T19:51:07Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T19:52:34Z didi: Bike: I actually have something like (format t "~{ ... ~}" (loop for i below 7 collect (if (logbitp i datum) 'true 'false))) 2017-10-11T19:54:47Z phoe_: >'true 'false 2017-10-11T19:54:53Z phoe_: ouch - why not T and NIL? 2017-10-11T19:55:02Z phf left #lisp 2017-10-11T19:55:07Z didi: *shrug* 2017-10-11T19:55:07Z _death: or T and F 2017-10-11T19:55:12Z phoe_: the atom FALSE is true in Lisp, and so is F 2017-10-11T19:55:20Z phoe_: (if 'false 1 2) ;=> 1 2017-10-11T19:55:52Z _death: (defconstant false nil) 2017-10-11T19:56:56Z les joined #lisp 2017-10-11T19:58:19Z _death: (defmacro my-quote (object) (list 'quote (if (eq object 'false) nil object))) 2017-10-11T20:00:20Z phoe_: _death: :( 2017-10-11T20:01:12Z _death: phoe: you should've responded with (if (car '(false)) 1 2) ;) 2017-10-11T20:01:29Z nast quit (Quit: nast) 2017-10-11T20:03:01Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:05:03Z Bike: didi: i mean, you could avoid some consing, but probably the i/o will dominate the time 2017-10-11T20:05:33Z didi: Bike: oic. Thanks. 2017-10-11T20:05:56Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:07:33Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:13:04Z Qtest joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:13:22Z akovalenko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T20:13:23Z Qtest left #lisp 2017-10-11T20:13:45Z akovalenko joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:13:52Z serviteur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T20:16:15Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:18:00Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-11T20:18:01Z h3r3tek quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T20:18:10Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:18:29Z handicraftsman joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:18:40Z handicraftsman: ?OTRv23? 2017-10-11T20:18:42Z handicraftsman left #lisp 2017-10-11T20:20:27Z PPop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:22:11Z handicraftsman joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:22:13Z handicraftsman left #lisp 2017-10-11T20:26:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T20:26:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:28:54Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2017-10-11T20:31:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:32:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T20:33:48Z Baggers left #lisp 2017-10-11T20:36:30Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:38:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:39:58Z DingoSaar quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:42:07Z akovalenko quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:42:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:42:36Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:42:53Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T20:44:19Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:46:00Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:47:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T20:47:12Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:47:54Z vtomole: How do you return a lists of lists all at once? (return-at-once '((1 apple) (2 orange) (3 pear))) => (1 apple) (2 orange) (3 pear) 2017-10-11T20:48:08Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:48:08Z vtomole: I basically want to remove the outermost parentheses. 2017-10-11T20:48:14Z Josh_2: values 2017-10-11T20:48:26Z Josh_2: clhs values 2017-10-11T20:48:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 2017-10-11T20:48:30Z Josh_2: I believe that's it 2017-10-11T20:49:08Z vtomole: Heh perfect. Thanks 2017-10-11T20:50:45Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:52:00Z vtomole: What if they are in a list? (values '((1 apple) (2 orange) (3 pear))) != (1 apple) (2 orange) (3 pear) Do I need to write a function that recusively returns values? 2017-10-11T20:52:17Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:52:33Z motersen joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:53:22Z didi: vtomole: values-list 2017-10-11T20:54:00Z Bike: do you know how to deal with multiple values, though? 2017-10-11T20:54:23Z vtomole: didi: Heh wow. I basically spent the last 30-mins reinventing values-list. 2017-10-11T20:54:33Z didi: vtomole: (apply 'values list) ;-) 2017-10-11T20:55:13Z didi: Hum. Interesting that `values-list' exist. 2017-10-11T20:55:41Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:55:50Z didi: Maybe something about the limit of the number of arguments to functions? 2017-10-11T20:57:54Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T20:58:14Z vtomole: Bike: I don't. I'm learning how to do that now. 2017-10-11T20:58:24Z Bike: for what purpose are you doing this? 2017-10-11T20:58:37Z Bike: i'm a bit worried about the concept confusion behind "remove the outermost parentheses" is all. 2017-10-11T20:58:47Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T20:59:04Z Bike: didi: don't think there's any huge reason, it's just sometimes convenient. 2017-10-11T20:59:11Z didi: Bike: ic 2017-10-11T20:59:39Z Bike: there is a limit on the number of arguments to functions, but there's also a limit on the number of values you can return, and it's probably not any higher. 2017-10-11T20:59:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:00:38Z akovalenko joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:01:07Z vtomole: There is a library that takes s-expr in order ( run (1 apple) (2 pear) (3 orange)) But I want to able to do (return-at-once '((1 apple) (2 orange) (3 pear))) to converit it what the run function wants 2017-10-11T21:01:18Z vtomole: *convert 2017-10-11T21:01:34Z Bike: You mean, the "run" function takes three arguments? 2017-10-11T21:01:56Z vtomole: It takes &optional 2017-10-11T21:01:57Z White_Flame: that looks like a macro. if it was a function it would be (run '(1 apple) '(2 pear) '(3 orange)) 2017-10-11T21:02:32Z Bike: if it is a function, you can use the elements of a list as arguments to a function more easily 2017-10-11T21:04:02Z vtomole: Sorry, yes. I just checked and run is a macro 2017-10-11T21:04:29Z White_Flame: then if you want to generate parameters to call it, that generator needs to be a macro as well 2017-10-11T21:04:40Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:04:45Z White_Flame: so it can all collapse down into real code at compile-time 2017-10-11T21:05:49Z vtomole: Sure 2017-10-11T21:06:15Z Bike: and it doesn't have to do with values in either case. 2017-10-11T21:13:12Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-11T21:13:51Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T21:14:57Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-11T21:17:21Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-11T21:30:58Z Xof joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:36:28Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:36:40Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T21:37:05Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:48:06Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.3.1) 2017-10-11T21:48:20Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:48:49Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T21:53:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T21:53:11Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-11T21:54:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-11T21:56:12Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-11T21:56:47Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-11T21:58:09Z foom joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:01:24Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:02:35Z iqubic: How does CLOS deal with the diamond problem that arises from multiple inheritence? 2017-10-11T22:03:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:03:32Z iqubic: I know I should't be trying to compare CLOS to Java or C++, but this has been nagging me for a bit now. 2017-10-11T22:03:33Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T22:04:07Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:04:43Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:05:13Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T22:05:35Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:07:35Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T22:08:01Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T22:08:46Z _death: iqubic: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html see footnote 12 2017-10-11T22:10:01Z iqubic: _death: Where in the actual chapter does that footnote lie? 2017-10-11T22:10:36Z _death: iqubic: you can search for "12" 2017-10-11T22:12:21Z iqubic: _death: What happens if a class inherits two, or more, different slot specifiers with the same name (One from each superclass)? 2017-10-11T22:12:34Z _death: they get merged 2017-10-11T22:12:40Z Bike: they get merged. which isn't in the actual footnote, just the text referring to it 2017-10-11T22:12:45Z iqubic: I see. 2017-10-11T22:12:56Z iqubic: That solves the diamond problem indeed. 2017-10-11T22:13:03Z iqubic: I like CLOS a bit. 2017-10-11T22:13:17Z iqubic: Now, how the heck does this differ from structs? 2017-10-11T22:13:22Z _death: it's also less likely to accidentally happen, since the names are symbols 2017-10-11T22:13:27Z Xof: structs only support single-inheritance 2017-10-11T22:13:34Z iqubic: Xof: Is that all? 2017-10-11T22:13:37Z didi left #lisp 2017-10-11T22:13:37Z Xof: hard to get a diamond that way 2017-10-11T22:14:03Z Xof: no, that's not all. Structs don't support run-time redefinition 2017-10-11T22:14:19Z mfiano: structs do a couple things classes cannot, but moreso the other way around. Generally, stay away from structs unless you need arrays with named accessor functions for example 2017-10-11T22:14:53Z iqubic: How do you redefine a class at run-time? 2017-10-11T22:15:12Z iqubic: Is there a way to have a function that returns a new class? 2017-10-11T22:15:17Z Xof: iqubic: don't worry about it for now 2017-10-11T22:15:33Z Xof: learn about standard classes and standard objects 2017-10-11T22:15:36Z Xof: program something 2017-10-11T22:15:48Z iqubic: I should, shouldn't I? 2017-10-11T22:15:53Z Xof: then come back for the mind-exploding stuff like run-time redefinition of classes 2017-10-11T22:16:05Z Xof: did I say "exploding"? I meant "expanding" 2017-10-11T22:16:38Z iqubic: LOL 2017-10-11T22:16:44Z pjb: iqubic: the only standard way is to use (eval `(defclass ,new-name (,@new-superclasses) ,@new-slots)) 2017-10-11T22:17:01Z shrdlu68: Xof: Well, explosion is simply rapid expansion... 2017-10-11T22:17:55Z iqubic: pjb: I'm not ready to try that. 2017-10-11T22:18:20Z pjb: iqubic: it's very rare to need to create new classes at run-time. 2017-10-11T22:22:21Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T22:30:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:30:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-11T22:30:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:31:29Z DingoSaar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T22:31:46Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:32:09Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:32:55Z DingoSaar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T22:39:41Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:40:29Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358268 -- can anyone show me how to get a commonlisp array from *bytes* 2017-10-11T22:40:51Z emaczen: I've been trying #'cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp but I can never get it to work 2017-10-11T22:41:34Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T22:42:51Z pillton: Use cffi:mem-ref / cffi:mem-aref. 2017-10-11T22:43:26Z emaczen: pillton: I've tried different combinations of forms before evaluating (cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp ...) 2017-10-11T22:43:44Z emaczen: including cffi:mem-ref -- might you provide some detail? 2017-10-11T22:48:00Z pillton: emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358347 2017-10-11T22:48:07Z TCZ joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:48:09Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:48:24Z tmc joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:49:02Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T22:50:38Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:51:25Z sizur joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:51:55Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-11T22:51:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-11T22:51:59Z sizur: What cli tool can prettyprint sexprs? 2017-10-11T22:52:11Z emaczen: pillton: I understand your code, but I'm also unsure of *bytes* from my paste 2017-10-11T22:53:13Z pillton: It will be a pointer. 2017-10-11T22:53:49Z pillton: Just evaluate the (cffi:foreign-slot-value ...) form at the REPL. 2017-10-11T22:54:22Z emaczen: Okay, now I need to figure out how to get the length from the defcstruct 2017-10-11T22:55:15Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-11T22:55:21Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-11T22:56:21Z emaczen: Is there an easy way to get the length that I don't know about? 2017-10-11T22:57:19Z pillton: In all honesty, you are doing it the wrong way. Use IPC or implement some higher level C functions that save you from all of the defcstruct madness. You will go insane if you keep following this path. 2017-10-11T22:57:50Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T22:57:50Z emaczen: what is IPC? 2017-10-11T22:57:58Z pillton: Inter process communication. 2017-10-11T22:58:37Z pillton: We have files, sockets, pipes and shared memory for a reason. 2017-10-11T23:00:19Z emaczen: What do you think I should send through IPC then? 2017-10-11T23:01:13Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T23:01:21Z pillton: Video frames in RGB format? 2017-10-11T23:03:59Z emaczen: Are you saying scratch opencv altogether? 2017-10-11T23:04:17Z emaczen: Or are you saying there is another conversion function to use 2017-10-11T23:05:59Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-11T23:06:13Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-11T23:06:17Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-11T23:07:05Z pillton: I'm saying that your current approach is very brittle because it relies on the layout of C structures which you are not in control of. 2017-10-11T23:07:10Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-11T23:08:48Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-11T23:09:29Z emaczen: pillton: what else am I suppposed to do? 2017-10-11T23:10:06Z emaczen: I was actually trying to use ABCL, java opencv bindings but I could never get it configured 2017-10-11T23:13:17Z sizur quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-10-11T23:16:40Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-11T23:22:09Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-11T23:29:08Z emaczen: can CFFI use C++ functions? 2017-10-11T23:30:30Z Bike: there's extern "C" 2017-10-11T23:34:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T23:37:14Z marvin2 quit (Quit: quit) 2017-10-11T23:39:31Z emaczen: Bike: I've never programmed enough in C 2017-10-11T23:39:46Z emaczen: Bike: I'm already having a terrible amount of trouble as it is 2017-10-11T23:42:39Z emaczen: Bike: Why does Clasp have such intense requirements to build? 2017-10-11T23:43:15Z Bike: because we use a lot of newish llvm features. 2017-10-11T23:43:24Z Bike: though currently i think you can use a stock llvm as long as it's 5.0 2017-10-11T23:43:53Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-11T23:44:38Z sizur joined #lisp 2017-10-11T23:45:22Z sizur: Is there any command line tool to pretty-print sexpr files that is width aware? 2017-10-11T23:45:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-11T23:45:40Z sizur: either terminal width or width as a parameter 2017-10-11T23:45:56Z Bike: the lisp printer has print-right-margin 2017-10-11T23:46:22Z sizur: Bike: thanks. how do i invoke the lisp printer? 2017-10-11T23:46:33Z Bike: clhs print 2017-10-11T23:46:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 2017-10-11T23:46:54Z Bike: clhs pprint 2017-10-11T23:46:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 2017-10-11T23:46:58Z Bike: ok yeah same page. 2017-10-11T23:48:03Z sizur: ok, looks like i need to learn lisp for that :P 2017-10-11T23:49:47Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-11T23:49:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-11T23:50:00Z Bike: we are in #lisp 2017-10-11T23:53:53Z sizur: yep, alien wizards 2017-10-11T23:54:16Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-11T23:54:22Z jmercouris: sizur: ? 2017-10-11T23:55:32Z sizur: jmercouris: i hold very high opinion of lispers 2017-10-11T23:56:06Z jmercouris: sizur: ah, I see :) 2017-10-11T23:56:30Z sizur: you guys can do everything easy, so i assumed there would be a simple cli command for that already :) 2017-10-11T23:56:59Z sizur: but i understand since it's probably easy to invode adhoc command for that, the cli tool was never needed 2017-10-11T23:57:19Z sizur: invoke* 2017-10-11T23:57:47Z sizur: elisp's pp is not width aware :( 2017-10-11T23:59:30Z jmercouris: sizur: elisp is missing a lot of things, you'll have better luck in #emacs for elisp specific questions 2017-10-12T00:00:22Z sizur: i asked there too. but i thought sexp-related matches lisp more 2017-10-12T00:04:41Z edgar-rft: 2017-10-12T00:06:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-12T00:07:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:08:01Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T00:17:18Z tmc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-12T00:19:52Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-10-12T00:20:19Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-12T00:28:50Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:31:13Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-12T00:31:41Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:32:02Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:33:42Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-12T00:33:46Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T00:35:35Z Xal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T00:39:05Z Xal joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:42:12Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:42:55Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:45:29Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:47:21Z sizur quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-10-12T00:48:42Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:54:07Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-12T00:54:16Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T00:54:31Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:54:38Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:55:05Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T00:55:26Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T00:56:17Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T00:57:53Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-12T00:58:33Z bwv quit (Quit: bwv) 2017-10-12T00:58:39Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T01:00:15Z jmercouris: I'm trying to run the example here: https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/CocoaBridge and instead of drawing a red window, I just get the following: https://imgur.com/a/64OxP 2017-10-12T01:07:27Z jmercouris: It's interesting because it updates the "Window" section of the menubar, but the window is NOT visible, even when using "Bring all to front" 2017-10-12T01:15:16Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T01:16:48Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:20:23Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:23:37Z jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T01:25:40Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:27:03Z nikivi quit (K-Lined) 2017-10-12T01:29:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T01:32:03Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:33:42Z nikivi joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:38:39Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:41:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:44:37Z vtomole_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:44:42Z vtomole_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-12T01:48:35Z jmercouris: I'm assuming this is due to changes in Cocoa 2017-10-12T01:48:47Z jmercouris: I guess I'll have to rewrite the example, and re-learn a lot of Cocoa 2017-10-12T01:53:17Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:55:01Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-12T01:56:19Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T02:14:00Z jmercouris: can anyone reccomend a good cffi tutorial? 2017-10-12T02:14:11Z _death: the manual? 2017-10-12T02:16:08Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T02:16:14Z jmercouris: I'm looking at it now, seems pretty good, but just wondering if there was something else, I like reading from multiple resources usually 2017-10-12T02:16:36Z _death: the source code is also very nice 2017-10-12T02:16:59Z jmercouris: interesting, I'll take a look thanks 2017-10-12T02:19:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:21:56Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:25:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:25:47Z shrdlu68: The documentation for the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch is the best ever. 2017-10-12T02:26:54Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:29:02Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: what? 2017-10-12T02:29:28Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:29:39Z fouric: (non-code documentation i'm assuming) 2017-10-12T02:29:53Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Sorry, unrelated. 2017-10-12T02:30:23Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T02:39:23Z emaczen: jmercouris: On OSX GUIs can only be drawn from the main thread 2017-10-12T02:40:29Z emaczen: There is some ccl function #'gui:execute-in-gui that should be called first 2017-10-12T02:41:25Z emaczen: Or sorry, you should pass the code you want called in the function argument to #'gui:execute-in-gui 2017-10-12T02:42:33Z emaczen: jmercouris: if you are looking at GUI work with commonlisp, ABCL is really easy to use Java's swing libraries 2017-10-12T02:43:18Z MrBismuth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T02:43:18Z emaczen: I've just tinkered around with ABCL for other reasons but it is as easy as (setf frame (new 'Jframe)) 2017-10-12T02:43:33Z emaczen: and then (#"setVisible" frame t) 2017-10-12T02:46:01Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T02:46:22Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:47:21Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T02:48:08Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:48:53Z jmercouris: emaczen: Thank you for the advice, but I already use EQL for gui, just toying around with cffi for some other ideas 2017-10-12T02:49:25Z emaczen: what is EQL? 2017-10-12T02:49:41Z _krator44 quit (Changing host) 2017-10-12T02:49:41Z _krator44 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:49:41Z _krator44 quit (Changing host) 2017-10-12T02:49:41Z _krator44 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T02:51:47Z jmercouris: EQL is a library for interfacing with QT it's really good 2017-10-12T02:52:02Z jmercouris: you can install it and check out the examples section: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5 2017-10-12T02:52:32Z iqubic: I thought it was a function to check if two symbols pointed to the same memory location. 2017-10-12T02:52:46Z jmercouris: it is that as well :P 2017-10-12T02:56:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-12T03:01:56Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T03:04:38Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-12T03:06:40Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-12T03:09:21Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-12T03:14:34Z nowolfer quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-12T03:14:34Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-10-12T03:20:58Z manny8888 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T03:24:10Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-12T03:24:50Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-10-12T03:24:55Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T03:29:03Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T03:40:38Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T03:40:48Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T03:41:37Z loke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T03:42:21Z turkja: Does anyone know any good examples of GUI apps written for ABCL? I mean some serious app, not just "hello java". 2017-10-12T03:48:52Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-12T03:51:59Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T03:52:12Z paule32: hello, and good morning 2017-10-12T03:52:16Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358353 2017-10-12T03:52:49Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-12T03:52:50Z paule32: how can i create a list if numbers, by given string "12345", and print the list? 2017-10-12T03:53:43Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-12T03:54:08Z logicmoo is now known as dmiles 2017-10-12T03:54:10Z loke: paule32: a string is already a sequence of characters 2017-10-12T03:54:37Z paule32: yes, but i would like have a list of this char 2017-10-12T03:54:41Z paule32: (1 2 3 4 5) 2017-10-12T03:55:10Z loke: List of characters, or list of numbers? 2017-10-12T03:55:19Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-12T03:55:24Z paule32: numbers 2017-10-12T03:57:39Z loke: (map 'list #'sb-unicode:digit-value "3848374") 2017-10-12T03:57:57Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T04:00:38Z paule32: Package SB-UNICODE does not exist. 2017-10-12T04:00:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:00:42Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T04:01:29Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:03:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:05:54Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:06:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T04:06:33Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:06:49Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T04:07:53Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T04:11:09Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:13:35Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T04:18:21Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:21:16Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T04:21:53Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T04:22:08Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T04:25:30Z paule32: (setq listeA (loop for x from 1 to (- (length stringA) 1) 2017-10-12T04:25:30Z paule32: collect x into ns 2017-10-12T04:25:30Z paule32: finally (return ns))) 2017-10-12T04:25:34Z paule32: this will work 2017-10-12T04:25:49Z paule32: now, i have 2 lists 2017-10-12T04:25:53Z paule32: (1 2 3 4 5) 2017-10-12T04:26:07Z paule32: (3 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3) 2017-10-12T04:26:28Z midre quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-12T04:26:58Z midre joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:27:11Z paule32: how can i fill the first list with zeros: 0 , when list 2 is bigger than first 2017-10-12T04:32:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T04:33:28Z shrdlu68: I'm not sure I understand what you want, why not use #'fill? 2017-10-12T04:33:33Z shrdlu68: clhs fill 2017-10-12T04:33:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fill.htm 2017-10-12T04:33:57Z paule32: hi shrdlu68 2017-10-12T04:34:01Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T04:34:23Z paule32: i have 2 strings "12345" and "3568943423" 2017-10-12T04:34:37Z shrdlu68: paule32: Okay... 2017-10-12T04:34:39Z koenig quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T04:37:27Z koenig joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:38:39Z shrdlu68: In the loop above it looks you don't need the into and return keywords. i.e. (loop for x from 1 to (1- (length stringA)) collecting x) would suffice. 2017-10-12T04:38:39Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:43:43Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T04:43:50Z beach joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:46:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:48:20Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:48:21Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T04:48:36Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T04:50:00Z paule32: yes 2017-10-12T04:50:11Z paule32: indeed, it is not neccessary 2017-10-12T04:55:42Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:00:17Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:03:04Z nchambers quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T05:03:22Z paule32: (fill (list listeA) '0 :start 4 :end 10) 2017-10-12T05:03:33Z paule32: give me error 2017-10-12T05:03:46Z paule32: (SB-INT:SEQUENCE-BOUNDING-INDICES-BAD-ERROR ((1 2 3 4 5)) 4 10) 2017-10-12T05:04:13Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:05:19Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T05:05:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:09:13Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:11:22Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:15:11Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:15:24Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:15:36Z compro` joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:17:01Z compro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T05:18:52Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T05:20:41Z shrdlu68: paule32: That's a very specific error, the same error you get when you try to read the 6th element from a vector of 2 elements. 2017-10-12T05:23:44Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-12T05:24:34Z shrdlu68: Hello beach. 2017-10-12T05:29:28Z compro`: good morning beach. What is your timezone? 2017-10-12T05:30:23Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T05:30:27Z beach: UTC+2 2017-10-12T05:30:59Z beach: compro`: See this one, though: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html 2017-10-12T05:33:36Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:34:57Z compro` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T05:37:04Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:37:25Z cross quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-12T05:38:44Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:42:24Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:43:27Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T05:43:47Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:46:27Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T05:47:49Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-12T05:55:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:56:55Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-12T05:58:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T05:58:30Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-12T06:00:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:00:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T06:01:14Z shka_: hello 2017-10-12T06:01:48Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:04:20Z beach: Hello shka_. 2017-10-12T06:04:26Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T06:05:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:06:18Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T06:06:34Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:07:06Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:08:35Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T06:13:19Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T06:14:25Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T06:15:41Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:17:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T06:19:30Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T06:22:05Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-12T06:31:48Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T06:33:43Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2017-10-12T06:35:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:36:16Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T06:37:04Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:39:12Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-12T06:42:47Z akkad quit (Quit: Emacs must have died) 2017-10-12T06:47:12Z hearthemusic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:48:38Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:50:38Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-12T06:50:41Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T06:52:02Z hearthemusic left #lisp 2017-10-12T06:53:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:53:41Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:54:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-12T06:56:21Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:01:10Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:02:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T07:11:52Z domovod joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:16:35Z h3r3tek quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T07:17:35Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-12T07:18:01Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:25:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-12T07:27:31Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:34:51Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:36:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T07:38:31Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:38:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:39:27Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T07:40:32Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:41:28Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T07:42:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:44:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T07:46:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:48:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T07:51:50Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-12T07:52:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T07:54:55Z domovod quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-12T07:55:03Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T07:56:30Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T08:00:01Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T08:01:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T08:13:45Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-12T08:16:57Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T08:18:09Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-12T08:26:43Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T08:43:35Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T08:45:41Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T08:50:11Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T08:53:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T08:53:56Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-12T08:54:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T09:01:30Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-10-12T09:02:28Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-12T09:08:13Z ssake quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-12T09:16:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-12T09:18:04Z jasom joined #lisp 2017-10-12T09:22:49Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-12T09:27:21Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-12T09:27:33Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T09:29:45Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-12T09:35:36Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T09:37:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T09:41:01Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T09:42:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T09:53:27Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T10:01:27Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T10:06:06Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-10-12T10:31:10Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-12T10:35:19Z flip214: hmmm, CFFI::FOREIGN-STRING-LENGTH is using 40% of the CPU time... ouch. 2017-10-12T10:43:27Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T10:55:26Z beach: Is there an appropriate existing error condition that could be signaled if an attempt is made to execute a form that had compilation errors. 2017-10-12T10:55:29Z beach: ? 2017-10-12T10:55:40Z phoe_: clhs program-error 2017-10-12T10:55:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_progra.htm 2017-10-12T10:56:00Z phoe_: that's my first guess, but let's see if we can go more specific... 2017-10-12T10:56:14Z beach: Yeah, OK. That could work. 2017-10-12T10:56:31Z beach: I think of PROGRAM-ERROR as a compile-time type of condition. 2017-10-12T10:56:38Z beach: But, why not. 2017-10-12T10:56:41Z phoe_: I think this is as good as you can get with the standard. 2017-10-12T10:57:14Z phoe_: beach: hey, compile-type type of condition, you say. 2017-10-12T10:57:43Z phoe_: "if an attempt is made toexecute a form that had compilation errors" - that's a compile-time of condition. 2017-10-12T10:57:44Z beach: compile-TIME 2017-10-12T10:57:50Z phoe_: Yes, sorry, my typo. 2017-10-12T10:58:02Z beach: OK, fair enough. Thanks. 2017-10-12T10:58:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T10:59:38Z phoe_: and yes, (defun foo () (go 3)) gives me a condition which is a subtype of PROGRAM-ERROR on SBCL 2017-10-12T11:00:41Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:01:30Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T11:04:10Z beach: OK, good to know. Thanks. 2017-10-12T11:04:30Z beach: That should have been a control-error though. 2017-10-12T11:04:33Z beach: clhs control-error 2017-10-12T11:04:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_contro.htm 2017-10-12T11:05:34Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:05:41Z phoe_: "The errors that result from naming a go tag or a block tag that is not lexically apparent are of type program-error. " 2017-10-12T11:05:50Z phoe_: actually it's a bit more complicated 2017-10-12T11:06:00Z shka: beach: i think that signalling same error in exec time as in compilation time is reasonable 2017-10-12T11:06:04Z phoe_: lexical scope vs dynamic scope. 2017-10-12T11:06:14Z phoe_: lexixal is PROGRAM-ERROR, dynamic is CONTROL-ERROR. 2017-10-12T11:06:21Z phoe_: "The errors that result from giving throw a tag that is not active or from giving go or return-from a tag that is no longer dynamically available are of type control-error." 2017-10-12T11:06:30Z beach: sb-int:compiled-program-error it is for SBCL 2017-10-12T11:06:45Z beach: (defun f (x) (let 234 x)) and then (f 234) 2017-10-12T11:07:08Z phoe_: Class precedence-list: SB-INT:COMPILED-PROGRAM-ERROR, PROGRAM-ERROR, ERROR, SERIOUS-CONDITION, CONDITION, SB-PCL::SLOT-OBJECT, T 2017-10-12T11:07:37Z beach: Right. 2017-10-12T11:07:53Z phoe_: So it's an indirect instance of PROGRAM-ERROR. 2017-10-12T11:08:02Z beach: Indeed. 2017-10-12T11:08:15Z beach: Or, rather a "sub-type". 2017-10-12T11:08:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:08:27Z phoe_: Oh, um, yes, correct. 2017-10-12T11:08:40Z phoe_: I meant the actual signaled condition instance, you mean the condition class. 2017-10-12T11:09:06Z beach: shka: What SBCL does is that it includes the compile-time error in the run-time error. Nice. 2017-10-12T11:09:29Z shka: best approach ever 2017-10-12T11:09:29Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T11:09:36Z phoe_: I think that when it encounters compile-time erroring code, it actually bakes the found condition in the compiled code and then signals it. 2017-10-12T11:09:53Z phoe_: I'd need to look at the decompiled code of (lambda () (go 3)) for example. 2017-10-12T11:09:54Z _death: told-you-error 2017-10-12T11:10:03Z phoe_: _death: xD 2017-10-12T11:10:19Z beach: phoe_: I thin it compiles a call to error instead of the incorrect form. 2017-10-12T11:10:21Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-12T11:10:46Z phoe_: Yes, that's what I've been trying to convey. It compiles a call to error that calls the condition that was signaled at compile-time. 2017-10-12T11:10:51Z phoe_: s/calls/signals/ 2017-10-12T11:10:58Z phoe_: I can't into English today. 2017-10-12T11:11:04Z beach: Conditions aren't called. 2017-10-12T11:11:15Z phoe_: Yes, I know. 2017-10-12T11:11:22Z shka: _death: nice 2017-10-12T11:11:23Z phoe_: My words aren't cooperating today. 2017-10-12T11:11:27Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T11:11:46Z beach: It compiles a call to ERROR that signals a condition of type sb-int:compiled-program-error, and that condition contains the instance of the error signaled at compile time. 2017-10-12T11:13:12Z phoe_: beach: yes, thank you. That's the correct order. 2017-10-12T11:13:22Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:13:23Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:14:23Z phoe_: minion: memo for Xach: your domain lisptips.com expired. 2017-10-12T11:14:23Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-10-12T11:14:29Z phoe_: XachX: Xach: ^ 2017-10-12T11:15:23Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T11:19:04Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:23:03Z beach: clhs restart-case 2017-10-12T11:23:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm 2017-10-12T11:24:36Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:26:58Z beach: So the restartable-form I have may signal a compile-time error and I want to store that error condition in the run-time error condition. I came up with this solution: (let (cc) (restart-case (handler-case (form-that-may-signal-an-error) (error (c) (setf cc c) (error c))) (my-restart () (make-condition 'run-time-error :compile-time-error cc)))) 2017-10-12T11:27:08Z beach: Is there a better one? 2017-10-12T11:27:27Z beach: I.e. I handle the compile time error by storing it in CC and then signaling it again. 2017-10-12T11:28:28Z beach: Actually the make-condition won't work. 2017-10-12T11:28:56Z beach: Never mind. I'll figure it out later. 2017-10-12T11:31:06Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T11:31:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:31:36Z shka: beach: more-conditions system contains so called chainable-conditions 2017-10-12T11:31:45Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T11:31:51Z shka: this is essentially what you are doing here as far i can tell 2017-10-12T11:32:41Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:33:56Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-12T11:38:47Z beach: Maybe so. 2017-10-12T11:39:28Z beach: But it is more complicated. I need to create a FORM that, when executed, makes a condition that includes a condition that existed at compile time. 2017-10-12T11:39:47Z phoe_: sounds like a use case for MAKE-LOAD-FORM 2017-10-12T11:40:24Z beach: Maybe so. 2017-10-12T11:40:32Z Bike: yeah, that's make-load-form exactly. 2017-10-12T11:41:00Z Bike: inconveniently, i don't think make-load-form-saving-slots works for conditions 2017-10-12T11:41:25Z phoe_: Bike: of course it doesn't, conditions aren't standard-objects or structure-objects 2017-10-12T11:41:44Z phoe_: it will work for most open/free CL implementations except SBCL 2017-10-12T11:41:44Z beach: I think I can do something simpler. If this is the file compiler, I just won't attempt to create a FASL, so the compile-time condition does not have to be there. 2017-10-12T11:42:04Z beach: If it is not the file compiler, I can just include the condition itself in the source code. 2017-10-12T11:42:17Z Bike: if that works, then sure 2017-10-12T11:42:18Z phoe_: because SBCL has its own thing called a slot-object, and conditions are slot-objects. 2017-10-12T11:58:33Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-12T11:59:30Z koenig: j/clear 2017-10-12T12:01:14Z paule32: hello 2017-10-12T12:01:22Z paule32: i have two lists: 2017-10-12T12:01:23Z paule32: (1 2 3 4 5) 2017-10-12T12:01:23Z paule32: (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) 2017-10-12T12:02:06Z paule32: i tried "fill", but lost by compare, and add zeros to the first list depend on list2 2017-10-12T12:02:54Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:03:52Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:04:20Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:04:25Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:07:01Z paule32: i would like append pretrailing 0 2017-10-12T12:07:07Z paule32: in form of: 2017-10-12T12:07:32Z paule32: (0 0 1 2 3 4 5) ; 2017-10-12T12:07:39Z paule32: (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) 2017-10-12T12:09:02Z shka: well, first of, list is a bad fit 2017-10-12T12:09:35Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T12:10:19Z jdz: paule32: if you insist, the functions you need are: APPEND, MAKE-LIST and SUBSEQ. 2017-10-12T12:10:53Z shka: just length will do 2017-10-12T12:10:59Z shka: instead of subseq 2017-10-12T12:11:42Z Shinmera: (loop repeat (- (length b) (length a)) do (push 0 a)) 2017-10-12T12:14:11Z jdz: I have no idea how I've survived this long with my reading comprehension. 2017-10-12T12:14:35Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-12T12:14:46Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-12T12:16:03Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:16:53Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T12:19:18Z paule32: (defvar a 0) 2017-10-12T12:19:18Z paule32: (setq a (loop repeat 2 do (push 0 listeA))) 2017-10-12T12:19:18Z paule32: (print a) 2017-10-12T12:19:23Z paule32: give me nil 2017-10-12T12:21:46Z Bike: why do you go from "a" to "listeA" 2017-10-12T12:22:10Z Bike: "do" is for effect, so the loop always returns nil 2017-10-12T12:22:12Z Bike: you seem to have some extremely basic confusion about how programming works 2017-10-12T12:28:57Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:29:55Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T12:30:01Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T12:30:57Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T12:31:49Z paule32: (setq listeA (loop for x from 1 to (length stringA) 2017-10-12T12:31:49Z paule32: collect x )) 2017-10-12T12:32:04Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:32:07Z paule32: this will create the list (1 2 3 4 5) 2017-10-12T12:32:34Z jdz: paule32: you could work as a magician: you keep pulling out variables like rabbits out of a hat. 2017-10-12T12:32:56Z paule32: (setq stringA "12345") 2017-10-12T12:33:06Z paule32: (defvar listeA ()) 2017-10-12T12:33:33Z jdz: paule32: have you tried reading a book or a tutorial? 2017-10-12T12:33:49Z paule32: yes 2017-10-12T12:33:55Z paule32: there many functions 2017-10-12T12:33:59Z paule32: append, fill 2017-10-12T12:34:18Z jdz: Yes, one, two, many. 2017-10-12T12:35:49Z Shinmera: Sometimes the things that are going on in this channel fill me with such inexplicable, explosive rage and fury that I wonder why I even bother coming here at all. 2017-10-12T12:36:58Z jdz: Sorry, I'll just shut up. 2017-10-12T12:37:04Z Shinmera: That wasn't directed at you. 2017-10-12T12:37:23Z jdz: I'm not helping, anyway. 2017-10-12T12:37:36Z jdz: I just don't see anybody else succeeding, either. 2017-10-12T12:38:25Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T12:48:43Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:51:00Z beach: Shinmera: What were you referring to? 2017-10-12T12:51:19Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:52:07Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:53:07Z Shinmera: beach: Sometimes when I see people that give me the impression they're not learning, or not doing their own work, I just get really mad. It's stupid of me, but I can't help it, it seems. 2017-10-12T12:53:31Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:53:47Z beach: I see. Whatever you do, don't become a professor then. You'll have a heart attack. 2017-10-12T12:53:58Z Shinmera: Heh. 2017-10-12T12:54:07Z Josh_2: I wouldn't say it is stupid of you to get mad, more a waste of your own energy. It is understandable that you would get frustrated, especially if you are self taught. 2017-10-12T12:54:07Z jackdaniel: answering such people questions doesn't help, just encourages such behavior ,) 2017-10-12T12:54:08Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T12:54:30Z Shinmera: Josh_2: The waste of my own energy is why I think it's stupid. 2017-10-12T12:54:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T12:54:38Z beach: jackdaniel: That's exactly why I quit helping paule32. 2017-10-12T12:54:44Z anthracite joined #lisp 2017-10-12T12:54:49Z jackdaniel: beach: same here 2017-10-12T12:56:36Z Josh_2: Shinmera: I would argue that it isn't stupid to feel that way, because saying it is stupid may lead you to more negative emotion. I say accept and move on without judgement. 2017-10-12T12:57:08Z JuanDaugherty left #lisp 2017-10-12T13:01:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:03:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:05:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:07:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:08:37Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:11:55Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:12:43Z Bike: beach: for what it's worth, it looks like sbcl writes the compile-time error to a string, and then signals a generic runtime condition that has that string in a slot, along with a string of the form. 2017-10-12T13:12:57Z beach: Clever! 2017-10-12T13:13:21Z beach: Thanks. 2017-10-12T13:13:42Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:13:53Z Bike: it feels like there should be an actual condition, but i'm not sure what would really be handling this kind of condition anyway. 2017-10-12T13:14:30Z beach: Well, it is not signaled, only reported, at run time. 2017-10-12T13:14:50Z Bike: right... 2017-10-12T13:16:53Z paule32: (setq listeA (loop for x from 1 to 3 do 2017-10-12T13:16:53Z paule32: (append '(0) (list listeA)))) 2017-10-12T13:16:53Z paule32: (print (list listeA)) 2017-10-12T13:17:04Z paule32: result: (nil) 2017-10-12T13:17:51Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T13:18:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:18:58Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:19:01Z paule32: (print (append '(0) (list listeA))) 2017-10-12T13:19:03Z jackdaniel: paule32: please put your pastes on pastebin-like service 2017-10-12T13:19:11Z jackdaniel: also your questions match better #clnoobs channel 2017-10-12T13:19:40Z jackdaniel: s/match/fit/ 2017-10-12T13:20:33Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:21:09Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:23:34Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-12T13:23:58Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:24:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:24:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-12T13:29:03Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:32:31Z Xach: phoe_: how did you notice? 2017-10-12T13:32:31Z minion: Xach, memo from phoe_: your domain lisptips.com expired. 2017-10-12T13:33:00Z dlowe: oh noes 2017-10-12T13:36:43Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:45:58Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:46:07Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:48:35Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:51:27Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:51:44Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:51:50Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T13:53:35Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T13:57:17Z h3r3tek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T13:57:59Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-12T13:59:26Z foom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T14:02:48Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:06:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:06:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-12T14:06:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:07:20Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:07:23Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-12T14:08:14Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:10:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:10:24Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:11:24Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-12T14:12:22Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:13:21Z stnutt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T14:14:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:14:23Z margeas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T14:15:20Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T14:16:52Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:22:01Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-12T14:22:40Z foom joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:22:53Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T14:24:57Z shwouchk quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-12T14:26:27Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:27:30Z kenanb joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:31:15Z kenanb: I have a program that needs to be controlled via various interfaces, most probably through plugins inside other software, I decided it is better to have it be a server and design the interfaces as clients, now my problem is what kind of stack to use for communication 2017-10-12T14:31:25Z kuwze joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:31:45Z kenanb: I really don't know much networking, my research points me to json-rpc so far 2017-10-12T14:32:28Z dlowe: it's kind of an endless argument :) 2017-10-12T14:32:40Z kenanb: what is? 2017-10-12T14:33:11Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T14:33:12Z dlowe: what RPC format we should all be using 2017-10-12T14:34:00Z kenanb: I thought protobuf+grpc / flatbuffers+grpc / trift etc but none seems easily applicable to lisp side 2017-10-12T14:34:16Z Shinmera: If you're on Unix and on the same machine: probably something pipe-based. Otherwise: TCP. If you're on a wide network with unpredictable firewalls, probably HTTP-based. 2017-10-12T14:34:25Z dlowe: There is a protobuf library for CL, but I don't know about grpc support. 2017-10-12T14:34:31Z kenanb: dlowe: I see. so that is discussed a lot? I wonder how I missed that :D 2017-10-12T14:35:25Z kenanb: Shinmera: it needs to be cross-platform, but both server and client will always be on same machine so the network is simple 2017-10-12T14:36:02Z dlowe: The easiest way to make something cross-platform is to slap a web interface on it. 2017-10-12T14:36:15Z Shinmera: Well, you could do shared memory, though I don't advise it. I'd rather say TCP-based. 2017-10-12T14:36:16Z dlowe: but then you'll have a web interface 2017-10-12T14:36:18Z bwv quit (Quit: bwv) 2017-10-12T14:36:55Z dlowe: you'll have the most flexibility with json over http 2017-10-12T14:37:01Z kenanb: is there any reason json-rpc would be a bad idea? the data that is transmitted will be really small 2017-10-12T14:37:10Z Shinmera: Slapping together a simple server/client scheme with a protocol to call stuff doesn't take that much time. 2017-10-12T14:37:30Z Shinmera: Could even just PRINT/READ or use CL-STORE as the wire format. 2017-10-12T14:37:56Z dlowe: I'm assuming clients will be in potentially many different languages 2017-10-12T14:38:04Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:38:12Z Shinmera: Ah. 2017-10-12T14:38:19Z kenanb: dlowe: yes, your assumption is very true. 2017-10-12T14:38:19Z Shinmera: Right, JSON, then. (sigh) 2017-10-12T14:38:52Z Shinmera: Unless of course you implement a parser library for the other languages like I'm doing for Lichat. 2017-10-12T14:39:25Z kenanb: you know, I would really prefer not to do that :D 2017-10-12T14:39:51Z Shinmera: As mentioned, JSON is going to be the easiest/sanest choice, then. 2017-10-12T14:40:07Z kenanb: I would actually love to work on it normally, but this is a program that I need to make useful by now or it will never finish :) 2017-10-12T14:40:44Z fe[nl]ix: kenanb: I'd use protobuf+grpc because it's widely supported, though not as widely as JSON, and has built-in support for schemas 2017-10-12T14:41:10Z kenanb: cool, I initially found xml-rpc, regardless of general xml hate, I was ok with it as long as it worked, but then even wikipedia says xml-rpc is criticized to be mostly stupid :D 2017-10-12T14:41:58Z Shinmera: Why not just do SOAP (lol) 2017-10-12T14:42:15Z dlowe: Even without grpc, protobufs are relatively sane, binary, and have wide language support 2017-10-12T14:43:04Z jackdaniel: kenanb: CL port for Thrift is underway 2017-10-12T14:43:13Z kenanb: Shinmera: :) I guess SOAP is also among the pile of deprecated-bad-xml-ideas of the early 2k era? 2017-10-12T14:43:17Z jackdaniel: should be finished by the end of this month 2017-10-12T14:43:50Z dlowe: SOAP has the distinction of being obviously bad even at the time 2017-10-12T14:43:54Z Shinmera: SOAP is an exercise in insanity 2017-10-12T14:44:09Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T14:44:12Z Shinmera: that somehow got industry adaptation 2017-10-12T14:44:31Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:44:36Z kenanb: dlowe, fe[nl]ix: I actually have some experience with protobuf, but I don't think there is a readily available grpc binding for lisp? 2017-10-12T14:44:54Z dlowe: kenanb: there isn't, but that doesn't stop you from just pushing the bytes through a pipe 2017-10-12T14:45:05Z kenanb: well, at least they named it in a way to hint that 2017-10-12T14:45:12Z bwv left #lisp 2017-10-12T14:45:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:45:57Z kenanb: jackdaniel: CL port for Thrift is underway? you working on it? would you recommend adapting it immediately? 2017-10-12T14:46:00Z tmc joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:46:19Z dlowe: You want grpc if you have many services that all coordinate with each other, plus services that can operate on generic RPC streams 2017-10-12T14:47:10Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:47:47Z jackdaniel: kenanb: only brief documentation is provided and cleanup is pending, also it is not merged to main branch yet. so if you are fine with wip which may have some slight changes in the future, you may use it 2017-10-12T14:49:08Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/TurtleWarePL/thrift here it is, based on James Anderson work from https://github.com/lisp/de.setf.thrift 2017-10-12T14:50:00Z kenanb: seriously, what I need is a single CL process communicating with another single process that maybe, C/C++, Python, C#, or CL. One is going to send commands, and act upon the response, either by updating the UI, or printing a fresh cli prompt etc. that is mostly it. I don't even expect two clients connect it at the same time. 2017-10-12T14:50:39Z Shinmera: I say still just use a simple TCP server and JSON for the wire format. 2017-10-12T14:51:16Z kenanb: so I guess any networking method will do in my case, the only major need is easy communication and calling commands on the server 2017-10-12T14:51:21Z dlowe: what Shinmera says 2017-10-12T14:51:52Z Shinmera: With usocket you'll have a server running in no time. 2017-10-12T14:52:28Z kenanb: I see, so my initial idea of choosing json-rpc was ok, right? 2017-10-12T14:52:32Z jackdaniel: comming up with REST api on top of ningle isn't the worst thing you can do either – if you plan to plug some UI to it frontend guys will know what to do right away 2017-10-12T14:52:49Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-12T14:52:53Z kenanb: Fukamachi has a jsonrpc lib that seems cool 2017-10-12T14:54:00Z Shinmera: kenanb: I don't know what that library does, so I can't comment on it. 2017-10-12T14:54:09Z kenanb: jackdaniel: I will definitely check Thrift out as well, since it also seemed like a bundled solution, and as long as it works on CL part, I think the officially supported languages will do for the client side. 2017-10-12T14:55:38Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-12T14:57:31Z kenanb: Shinmera: the API seems really simple, you just make-server, map some string commands to lambdas, and that's it for the client side, but I haven't tested it much yet, so I don't know how it handles error conditions etc. 2017-10-12T14:57:46Z kenanb: that's it for the server side* 2017-10-12T15:00:15Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T15:01:15Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-12T15:02:20Z kenanb: thank you very much for the information and the discussion, folks! 2017-10-12T15:02:35Z whyNOP quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T15:07:53Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-12T15:11:34Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-12T15:12:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-12T15:17:38Z yrk 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inactivity) 2017-10-12T16:00:46Z phoe_: Xach: mfiano attempted to access it. 2017-10-12T16:01:11Z XachX: I have submitted renewal with my registrar. 2017-10-12T16:04:59Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T16:06:50Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T16:09:27Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T16:10:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-12T16:10:47Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T16:12:24Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-12T16:13:54Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-12T16:14:37Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T16:15:39Z mfiano: yeah, i had thought it is where i found a particular article, but it turned out to be one of the other domains. 2017-10-12T16:17:27Z mfiano: XachX: also, i request that sly follow up article, or at an idea of where you are now :) 2017-10-12T16:21:08Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T16:22:49Z lonjil quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-12T16:23:07Z lonjil joined #lisp 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Bourne joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:25:34Z emaczen: shka_: it's just that the C API I am trying to use has been deprecated 2017-10-12T17:25:59Z emaczen: I'm pretty sure I have a starting point now 2017-10-12T17:26:22Z emaczen: I'm just going to start parsing a JFIF file 2017-10-12T17:26:31Z emaczen: I'm sure I'll learn enough about it to get what I want 2017-10-12T17:27:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:28:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:36:57Z easieste joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:39:50Z abrcdbr_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:40:20Z easieste quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-12T17:40:42Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-12T17:40:53Z abrcdbr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-12T17:42:35Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-12T17:43:02Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:43:15Z easieste joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:44:57Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:46:27Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T17:47:21Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:47:58Z abrcdbr_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-10-12T17:48:35Z easieste quit (Quit: easieste) 2017-10-12T17:52:33Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T17:53:59Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T17:54:07Z anthracite quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-12T17:55:44Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:56:44Z abrcdbr joined #lisp 2017-10-12T17:57:54Z elazul joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:03:15Z emaczen: what happends if you don't defcstruct correctly? 2017-10-12T18:03:45Z emaczen: I think i'm getting a bunch of junk back from #'cffi:foreign-slot-value 2017-10-12T18:09:30Z Bike: you mean if your provided definition is inconsistent with the actual C one? 2017-10-12T18:11:28Z fe[nl]ix: emaczen: it happens that the code will dereference incorrect parts of the struct 2017-10-12T18:11:33Z fe[nl]ix: same as in C 2017-10-12T18:14:22Z abrcdbr_ joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:14:25Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:14:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T18:14:52Z emaczen: fe[nl]ix: I was getting strange integers and am pretty sure I didn't do it correctly then 2017-10-12T18:15:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:15:18Z emaczen: I'm going to instead try writing it to a file and then reading it from lisp 2017-10-12T18:16:07Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:16:56Z abrcdbr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:17:08Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:18:51Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:19:02Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T18:19:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:20:19Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:24:10Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:26:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-12T18:27:29Z phoe_: emaczen: or try fixing up your defstruct 2017-10-12T18:28:28Z emaczen: phoe_: I don't like the idea of writing to a file and then reading from it, but maybe it is fast enough 2017-10-12T18:28:52Z emaczen: phoe_: Maybe I can just get it to work for now you know? 2017-10-12T18:28:59Z Bock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T18:29:06Z emaczen: this type of work isn't usually what I do... 2017-10-12T18:31:00Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-12T18:32:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:34:09Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:34:27Z _death: could use shared memory, or zeromq 2017-10-12T18:34:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:38:06Z emaczen: _death: can you elaborate on how to use shared memory here? 2017-10-12T18:39:05Z _death: if you're using linux, mmap/shmem 2017-10-12T18:39:16Z _death: erm, shmget 2017-10-12T18:42:09Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:42:46Z emaczen: _death: is the idea that I can still write code in terms of files but it will still use RAM? 2017-10-12T18:44:55Z _death: that's not shared memory, but you can also do that using a tmpfs mount (e.g., /tmp or /var/tmp on some distributions) 2017-10-12T18:45:20Z _death: it will still require copying data 2017-10-12T18:47:17Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:47:23Z iqubic: How do one make a function that does different things when given a int vs a double? 2017-10-12T18:47:45Z emaczen: defmethod specialized on which type you want 2017-10-12T18:47:46Z iqubic: Do I have to use generic methods and specializations? 2017-10-12T18:47:55Z Bike: generic functions, yes 2017-10-12T18:47:58Z _death: iqubic: you can use typecase 2017-10-12T18:48:05Z Bike: assuming you mean integer and double-float 2017-10-12T18:48:17Z emaczen: (defmethod function-name ((param double)) function-body) 2017-10-12T18:48:18Z _death: iqubic: or typep, integerp, etc. 2017-10-12T18:49:14Z iqubic: I see. 2017-10-12T18:53:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:54:28Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T18:54:41Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-12T18:55:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:00:14Z 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2017-10-12T19:12:14Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T19:12:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:15:59Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358425 -- that is my understanding 2017-10-12T19:16:33Z AX31_A13X joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:17:01Z _death: never tried streaming it.. best to look at ffmpeg or something 2017-10-12T19:18:17Z emaczen: _death: do you have any hunchentoot examples? 2017-10-12T19:18:41Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T19:20:04Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:21:24Z _death: of what? 2017-10-12T19:21:44Z emaczen: ffmpeg? 2017-10-12T19:22:14Z _death: no.. I mean ffmpeg has a server (ffserver) that can stream mjpeg.. 2017-10-12T19:26:13Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:26:42Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T19:28:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:36:42Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:36:45Z akkad joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:40:48Z dbh joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:44:10Z dbh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-12T19:48:16Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T19:50:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T19:53:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-12T19:55:14Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T19:56:20Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-12T19:59:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:17:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T20:18:49Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:20:11Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:20:23Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:39:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:39:36Z rgrau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T20:41:01Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:42:37Z elazul quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-12T20:43:10Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:48:30Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-12T20:56:06Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-10-12T20:57:32Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T20:57:32Z jmercouris: can someone explain to me the message in the topic: the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language 2017-10-12T20:57:39Z jmercouris: what does #1= mean? 2017-10-12T20:57:46Z shka_: :-) 2017-10-12T20:58:06Z _death: clhs #= 2017-10-12T20:58:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 2017-10-12T20:58:35Z alexmlw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T20:58:54Z jmercouris: so that's like reader assignment? 2017-10-12T20:59:20Z phoe_: yes, that's instructing the reader that it should preserve identity. 2017-10-12T20:59:39Z _death: it's reader syntax for "labeling" an object, which you can then refer to using #n# 2017-10-12T20:59:40Z pjb: #1=(programmable . #1#) === #1=(programmable . (programmable . #1#)) === (programmable programmable . #1#) === (programmable programmable programmable . #1#)… 2017-10-12T20:59:51Z phoe_: in (#1=(a . b) (a . b) #1#), the result is an alist that looks like ((a . b) (a . b) (a . b)) 2017-10-12T20:59:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-12T20:59:56Z phoe_: but the first and the third cons are EQ 2017-10-12T20:59:57Z abrcdbr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T21:00:04Z phoe_: where the first and second most likely are not 2017-10-12T21:00:42Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:01:10Z jmercouris: I see, I think I got it 2017-10-12T21:01:22Z jmercouris: the thing I'm missing is you saying "first and third cons are EQ" 2017-10-12T21:01:35Z jmercouris: what do you mean? they are the same address in memory? 2017-10-12T21:01:40Z phoe_: yes, they're one and the same object 2017-10-12T21:01:54Z phoe_: they're the same object referenced from two different places in the list 2017-10-12T21:02:00Z jmercouris: yes, I gotcha 2017-10-12T21:02:30Z jmercouris: So the joke is that lisp is the #1 programmable language because it can be programmed? 2017-10-12T21:02:37Z phoe_: equivalent to (let ((x (cons 'a 'b)) (y (cons 'a 'b))) (list x y x)) 2017-10-12T21:02:41Z jmercouris: and its using lisp syntax to say that? 2017-10-12T21:02:51Z phoe_: jmercouris: it's not a joke, it's reality (: 2017-10-12T21:03:09Z jmercouris: phoe_: sure, GNUS is also not a joke, but it's kinda a joke, you know what I mean? 2017-10-12T21:03:13Z phoe_: and it's circularly programmable 2017-10-12T21:03:27Z phoe_: you can program the language and then you can program the programming of the language 2017-10-12T21:03:33Z _death: try (progn (setf *print-length* 10) '#1=(programmable . #1#)) 2017-10-12T21:03:35Z phoe_: until you reach turtles 2017-10-12T21:03:44Z jmercouris: phoe_: all the way down 2017-10-12T21:03:57Z Shinmera: I feel like explaining the topic is kind of ruining the beauty of it. It was a genuinely nice surprise when I realised what it meant on my own as I learned lisp. 2017-10-12T21:04:05Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-12T21:04:26Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I still think it's pretty cool, I just didn't know that syntax, didn't really ruin anything for me 2017-10-12T21:05:05Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:05:10Z pjb: Rather, try: (loop with *print-circle* = nil for *print-length* from 1 to 10 do (print '#1=(programmable . #1#))) 2017-10-12T21:05:20Z Bike: "wow, spoilers" 2017-10-12T21:05:43Z pjb: _death: *print-length* is useless in your case if you have *print-circle* true! (which you should have in your rc file by default). 2017-10-12T21:06:01Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-12T21:06:26Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:06:28Z _death: pjb: no, I keep it at nil, because I don't usually want #n# shown for simple shared structure 2017-10-12T21:07:25Z _death: on the other hand, a moderate bound on print-length may be a good idea (I thought about it before, but didn't get a chance to try) 2017-10-12T21:09:19Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:09:59Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-12T21:10:10Z jmercouris: Shinmera: with so many projects, how do you keep them clear in your head? how do you remember what you were working on last in a given project? 2017-10-12T21:10:11Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:10:58Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Usually I don't, because I finish them so I don't have to work on them any more aside from bug fixes. 2017-10-12T21:15:11Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:20:23Z Shinmera: For those that are too large to finish quickly I just organise code very clearly and keep ideas recorded in issues or on my trello. 2017-10-12T21:20:45Z jmercouris: Trello? Interesting, do you use emacs? 2017-10-12T21:21:01Z Shinmera: I do use Emacs, but not for Trello, if that's what you're asking. 2017-10-12T21:21:22Z jmercouris: I'm just thinking that org might be a better alternative 2017-10-12T21:21:34Z Shinmera: I've tried to get into Org and just couldn't. 2017-10-12T21:21:44Z jmercouris: hmm yeah, well it is not for everyone 2017-10-12T21:21:56Z jmercouris: I think a lot of people their first experience is a bit overwhelming with org 2017-10-12T21:22:10Z Shinmera: I've given it multiple shots but it just doesn't please me I guess. 2017-10-12T21:22:22Z jmercouris: There's so many configuration possibilities, and you can infinitely tweak your config, but actually is not a good way to start imo 2017-10-12T21:22:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:22:43Z KongWubba: whats org? 2017-10-12T21:22:59Z jmercouris: KongWubba: http://orgmode.org 2017-10-12T21:23:19Z KongWubba: thx! 2017-10-12T21:23:37Z _death: I use org-capture a lot 2017-10-12T21:24:30Z jasom: someone tell me what I'm doing wrong: (extern-alien "write" (function long (* void) long)) 2017-10-12T21:24:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:25:09Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-12T21:25:44Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:25:56Z _death: long? 2017-10-12T21:27:02Z KongWubba quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-12T21:27:05Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:27:22Z jasom: google tells me it should be (* t) rather than (* void) 2017-10-12T21:27:48Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:28:51Z KongWubba quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-12T21:29:00Z _death: yeah 2017-10-12T21:30:07Z _death: think (extern-alien "write" (function int (* t) long)) 2017-10-12T21:30:46Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-12T21:32:19Z Cthulhux: is cl-notify superseded by anything or is it just "dead"? 2017-10-12T21:33:38Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-12T21:34:06Z jasom: _death: yeah 2017-10-12T21:34:13Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-12T21:34:55Z _death: Cthulhux: maybe my dbus lib can help 2017-10-12T21:35:33Z Cthulhux would prefer a low-dependency thing, but dbus seems to be unavoidable 2017-10-12T21:36:05Z Shinmera: libnotify doesn't exactly have few dependencies. 2017-10-12T21:36:53Z Cthulhux: libnotify seems to be the consensus about how to display notification toasts on linux 2017-10-12T21:36:58Z Cthulhux: :( 2017-10-12T21:37:22Z Cthulhux: or is there a non-libnotify library for that? 2017-10-12T21:37:53Z Shinmera: You could use a tray icon, I guess. 2017-10-12T21:38:13Z Cthulhux: not on WMs without a tray. 2017-10-12T21:38:30Z Shinmera: Sure, and you can't display toasts on a WM without a notification handler (even more common) 2017-10-12T21:38:37Z Cthulhux: good point 2017-10-12T21:38:52Z _death: one reason I no longer using my dbus lib ;) 2017-10-12T21:39:24Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:39:37Z Shinmera: You could do your own thingy to display notifications with simple frameless windows. 2017-10-12T21:39:45Z Shinmera: Only way to "be sure". 2017-10-12T21:40:23Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:40:25Z Shinmera: If you're using Qtools, QUI has that ready for you :) https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools-ui/blob/master/notification.lisp 2017-10-12T21:41:26Z Cthulhux: ah, qtools. i was considering.. :) (so much about "low dependencies") 2017-10-12T21:41:28Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:41:50Z Shinmera: Haha, yeah. Won't get low deps with Qt. At least deployment is handled for you and mostly "just works" from my own tests. 2017-10-12T21:42:22Z Cthulhux: really? is qt5 ported yet? 2017-10-12T21:42:29Z Shinmera: No 2017-10-12T21:42:31Z jmercouris: Cthulhux: no, and don't count on it 2017-10-12T21:42:35Z Cthulhux: :( 2017-10-12T21:42:38Z jmercouris: If you want to use QT5, use EQL5 2017-10-12T21:43:23Z Cthulhux: qt4 is dying a slow death 2017-10-12T21:43:27Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:43:34Z jmercouris: Cthulhux: I wouldn't call it slow :D 2017-10-12T21:43:34Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-12T21:43:40Z jmercouris: We're already on qt 5.11 2017-10-12T21:43:44Z Shinmera: Won't be dead for me for as long as Qt5 isn't ported. 2017-10-12T21:43:44Z Cthulhux: in computing terms.. 2017-10-12T21:43:54Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:44:33Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-12T21:47:13Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:47:30Z postit quit (Quit: quiting) 2017-10-12T21:48:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:48:34Z jmercouris: Cthulhux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWX53DCt47o 2017-10-12T21:48:46Z Cthulhux: LOL 2017-10-12T21:49:05Z Cthulhux: that whois magic though 2017-10-12T21:49:17Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:49:21Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:49:28Z jmercouris: Yeah 2017-10-12T21:55:42Z postit quit (Quit: quiting) 2017-10-12T21:58:07Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-12T21:58:27Z postit quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-12T21:59:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:00:05Z AX31_A13X quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:00:53Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:07:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:11:36Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:16:08Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:17:27Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:19:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:23:16Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-12T22:23:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:27:59Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:29:11Z jmercouris: if anyone needs help with CCL cocoa, I was able to get it working 2017-10-12T22:29:35Z jmercouris: I'm not like an expert or anything, but I can help with configuration 2017-10-12T22:32:36Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T22:33:44Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:35:48Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-12T22:36:17Z joast joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:36:43Z joast quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-12T22:37:01Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:38:43Z marvin2 quit 2017-10-12T22:38:45Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:39:17Z joast joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:42:49Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:43:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-12T22:45:12Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T22:45:44Z emaczen: how do we access errno with CFFI? 2017-10-12T22:46:55Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:48:01Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T22:49:33Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T22:53:11Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:01:05Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:03:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:05:59Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:07:13Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T23:07:16Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:07:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-12T23:07:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-12T23:09:38Z pjb: emaczen: write a function in C to return it, and call it from CFFI. 2017-10-12T23:10:14Z pjb: emaczen: errno is not a variable. It may be a macro expanding to some complex expression, like, accessing some thread specific attribute. 2017-10-12T23:13:27Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:18:17Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:23:59Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:27:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-12T23:31:48Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:34:47Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:36:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-12T23:38:32Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:39:52Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:40:16Z postit quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-12T23:41:11Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:41:31Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:43:29Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T23:46:49Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-12T23:48:47Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:51:03Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-12T23:51:05Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-12T23:56:05Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T00:04:22Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:04:52Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-13T00:06:27Z Rawriful quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T00:17:07Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:20:32Z jasom thinks CFFI should provide that personally 2017-10-13T00:25:17Z astronavt[m]: jmercouris me me me 2017-10-13T00:26:31Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-13T00:26:34Z astronavt[m]: i could never get it working. nothing ever was displayed 2017-10-13T00:32:33Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T00:33:07Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:35:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T00:41:25Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:42:19Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:42:26Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T00:42:53Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T00:45:10Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:45:15Z leourbina joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:45:24Z leourbina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T00:47:29Z panji quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T00:47:48Z leourbina joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:47:58Z leourbina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T00:48:09Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-13T00:51:59Z jasom: ultra fast "yes" implementation in under 140 characters: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/75wla9/writing_a_fast_yes_program_that_can_fit_in_a_tweet/doa6gut/ 2017-10-13T00:52:19Z jasom: the 200 character full featured can e trimmed by 2 characters 2017-10-13T01:03:34Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:03:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:08:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T01:11:07Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:11:12Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:14:00Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:14:01Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:26:32Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:28:28Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T01:31:03Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T01:39:43Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T01:44:25Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:45:32Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T01:45:43Z yaocl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-13T01:49:58Z ult_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:50:08Z ult_ is now known as ult 2017-10-13T01:50:37Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T01:51:33Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:52:27Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:52:39Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:54:59Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-13T01:55:04Z jmercouris: astronavt[m]: ok sure 2017-10-13T01:55:09Z jmercouris: astronavt[m]: are you still ther? 2017-10-13T01:55:23Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T01:55:32Z jmercouris: astronavt[m]: message me your email if you want and I can send you the steps 2017-10-13T01:55:57Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T01:59:36Z jmercouris: How can I create a logical pathname from ~/Folder/Subfolder 2017-10-13T01:59:48Z jmercouris: I know how to do "home:Folder", but "home:Folder:Subfolder" doesn't work 2017-10-13T02:01:45Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-13T02:03:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:07:50Z jmercouris: nvm, figured out translate logical pathname is implementation dependent 2017-10-13T02:07:54Z jmercouris: interesting 2017-10-13T02:10:41Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T02:11:01Z jmercouris: any reason why I have such difficulty deleting "|" (pipe) characters in paredit 2017-10-13T02:11:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:18:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T02:19:13Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:24:40Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T02:25:14Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-13T02:28:08Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2017-10-13T02:32:28Z jmercouris left #lisp 2017-10-13T02:33:09Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:35:19Z iqubic: What issues are you running into jmercouris? 2017-10-13T02:36:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:37:15Z pillton: jmercouris: Be aware that the standard requires logical pathnames to be all uppercase. 2017-10-13T02:37:22Z pillton: clhs 19.3.1 2017-10-13T02:37:23Z specbot: Syntax of Logical Pathname Namestrings: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_ca.htm 2017-10-13T02:39:09Z pillton: You are better off using functions to generate pathnames. 2017-10-13T02:45:48Z afact joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:45:53Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T02:45:57Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:47:08Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T02:48:30Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T02:51:42Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T02:52:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T02:57:53Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:57:58Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:58:14Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-13T02:59:49Z jmercouris: pillton: I found it such an obtuse syntax, but I didn't want to change the code that was using it 2017-10-13T02:59:58Z jmercouris: so I ended up making a new path 2017-10-13T03:04:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:04:52Z pillton: It is my understanding that it was defined at a time when there where no clear "winners" in terms of pathname syntax or file system functionality. 2017-10-13T03:06:29Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:08:32Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T03:09:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:11:20Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:11:28Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-13T03:11:32Z pillton: G'day beach. 2017-10-13T03:11:33Z loke: Hello beach! 2017-10-13T03:12:08Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:13:15Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:14:35Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-13T03:15:45Z yaocl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-13T03:17:09Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:17:42Z emaczen: morning beach 2017-10-13T03:20:19Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:20:26Z emaczen: pjb: how do we get errno? 2017-10-13T03:20:54Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:20:57Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T03:21:18Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:21:45Z jmercouris: pillton: yeah that's what I've read as well 2017-10-13T03:21:52Z jmercouris: at least it is OS agnostic 2017-10-13T03:21:57Z emaczen: pjb: Ok, I understand what you said now 2017-10-13T03:22:05Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:22:09Z emaczen: I'm talking to myself practically ha 2017-10-13T03:22:51Z jmercouris: iqubic: I was having trouble just extending the path, the syntax totally threw me off, that's all 2017-10-13T03:23:34Z iqubic: But you were having trouble deleting "|" in emacs too, right? 2017-10-13T03:24:37Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:24:46Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:24:55Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:27:21Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T03:27:54Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:29:57Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:30:01Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:30:26Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T03:31:11Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:31:30Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:35:14Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:36:40Z h3r3tek quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:37:53Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:37:55Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:38:25Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-13T03:39:13Z sjl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T03:41:30Z jmercouris: iqubic: yeah, that as well 2017-10-13T03:41:38Z jmercouris: with paredit mode enabled I can't ever delete pipes 2017-10-13T03:43:11Z pillton: You can do multiline comments with #| ... |# . 2017-10-13T03:43:20Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:44:33Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:44:51Z iqubic: Is that why paredit doesn't like removing "|"? 2017-10-13T03:45:19Z pillton: I presume so. It is probably trying to match with another pipe. 2017-10-13T03:46:03Z White_Flame: |foo| is what paredit is looking for, not #| foo |# 2017-10-13T03:46:31Z pillton: That too. 2017-10-13T03:47:01Z White_Flame: I end up using cut & paste when paredit doesn't want to do what I want 2017-10-13T03:47:06Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-13T03:49:18Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-13T03:50:55Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T03:59:29Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2017-10-13T04:03:05Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-13T04:03:05Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:03:59Z jmercouris: I'll try C-w next time, thanks for the tip! 2017-10-13T04:07:36Z h3r3tek joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:09:01Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-13T04:09:32Z aeth: I use C-w all the time now 2017-10-13T04:11:18Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:14:39Z astronavt[m]: jmercouris i messaged you 2017-10-13T04:17:14Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-13T04:19:29Z aeth: There is one disadvantage to C-w. Now that emacs is integrated with the system clipboard, using C-w as delete will pollute the clipboard 2017-10-13T04:20:44Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:27:53Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:37:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:42:32Z safe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-13T04:43:13Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T04:45:06Z jmercouris: astronavt[m]: emailed 2017-10-13T04:46:00Z jmercouris: aeth: Is it now? I still have a sort of "manual" integration with OSX: https://github.com/jmercouris/configuration/blob/master/.emacs.d/osx.el 2017-10-13T04:48:35Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:50:07Z astronavt[m]: ah jmercouris i thought you were talking about the cocoa bridge -_- 2017-10-13T04:53:46Z jmercouris: astronavt[m]: that's exactly what I"m talking about 2017-10-13T04:53:52Z jmercouris: read the whole email 2017-10-13T04:53:59Z jmercouris: it details getting the cocoa bridge to work 2017-10-13T04:54:08Z astronavt[m]: oh ok! 2017-10-13T04:54:23Z emaczen: jmercouris: Are you going to make the cocoa bridge work on Linux? 2017-10-13T04:54:35Z jmercouris: emaczen: I have no desire to, sorry! 2017-10-13T04:54:42Z astronavt[m]: definitely misunderstood. it's almost 1 AM here 2017-10-13T04:54:45Z jmercouris: I think for Unix, I'd just stick to GTK 2017-10-13T04:55:05Z astronavt[m]: does anyone use cocoa for non-mac apps? 2017-10-13T04:55:07Z jmercouris: astronavt[m]: yeah, I just detailed the basics in the beginning in case you would like to customize the location of the cocoa files 2017-10-13T04:55:22Z emaczen: astronavt[m]: OpenStep is the open source version of Cocoa 2017-10-13T04:55:36Z jmercouris: Yeah, I've never heard of anyone actually using it 2017-10-13T04:55:56Z emaczen: it is still in development so someone is using it 2017-10-13T04:56:03Z jmercouris: astronavt[m]: I will publish the directions online in a more consumable format than the repository I linked you to, but Paul Krueger has done a really good job 2017-10-13T04:56:23Z jmercouris: I can't imagine a lot of people are using it 2017-10-13T04:56:38Z jmercouris: I remember many times where I was the only person in the room who actually likes objective-c 2017-10-13T04:57:03Z emaczen: jmercouris: Isn't the cocoa-bridge really nice? 2017-10-13T04:57:47Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-13T04:57:55Z h3r3tek left #lisp 2017-10-13T04:58:28Z jmercouris: emaczen: I'm honestly not experienced enough to say 2017-10-13T04:58:44Z jmercouris: If all of the things I've read about it are true, then yeah, it seems like a very nice integration 2017-10-13T04:58:57Z jmercouris: I guess it's because the objective-c runtime has a lot of paralells to lisp 2017-10-13T04:59:54Z emaczen: jmercouris: it uses the MOP, so you can use a slight variant to CLOS (which is the point of the MOP) 2017-10-13T05:00:34Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T05:01:41Z jmercouris: What is the MOP? I've never heard this term 2017-10-13T05:01:55Z emaczen: Metaobject protocol 2017-10-13T05:02:03Z Guest43993 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-13T05:02:03Z itruslove quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-13T05:02:08Z emaczen: remember the (:metaclass ...) form? 2017-10-13T05:02:18Z beach: jmercouris: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ 2017-10-13T05:02:26Z jmercouris: Ah, the message passing 2017-10-13T05:02:32Z beach: No 2017-10-13T05:02:33Z emaczen: no 2017-10-13T05:02:49Z emaczen: CLOS is defined as an OOP 2017-10-13T05:02:52Z jmercouris: no no 2017-10-13T05:02:53Z jmercouris: sorry too quick 2017-10-13T05:02:58Z jmercouris: I didn't click beach link yet 2017-10-13T05:03:00Z emaczen: So you can override the defined methods 2017-10-13T05:03:13Z emaczen: and get new object systems 2017-10-13T05:04:34Z jmercouris: SO a meta object is an object that contains information about an object class? 2017-10-13T05:04:51Z emaczen: yep 2017-10-13T05:04:59Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/metaobjects.html 2017-10-13T05:05:40Z emaczen: by default in commonlisp class objects defined by you are instances of standard-object 2017-10-13T05:05:42Z jmercouris: Okay, so not exactly 2017-10-13T05:05:53Z jmercouris: So even the slots have an object describing them 2017-10-13T05:06:02Z jmercouris: This feels like a turtles all the way down implementation 2017-10-13T05:06:22Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T05:06:47Z jmercouris: thanks for the links & explanations! 2017-10-13T05:06:55Z jmercouris quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T05:07:12Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:07:13Z jmercouris: thanks for the links & explanations! 2017-10-13T05:07:15Z jmercouris: not sure why Circe keeps randomly dropping me as of late 2017-10-13T05:07:34Z beach: What is Circe? 2017-10-13T05:07:55Z loke: IRC client for Emacs. 2017-10-13T05:07:58Z jmercouris: beach: https://github.com/jorgenschaefer/circe 2017-10-13T05:08:11Z jmercouris: It's a really good one, great author 2017-10-13T05:08:23Z sjl: jmercouris: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/art-metaobject-protocol is a really good book to work through if you want to wrap your brain around the metaobject stuff 2017-10-13T05:08:27Z sjl: not free, but worth the price 2017-10-13T05:08:31Z beach: jmercouris: Thanks. 2017-10-13T05:09:27Z emaczen: I'm having trouble finding out how to create an object defined with defcstruct? 2017-10-13T05:09:36Z jmercouris: sjl: Maybe when I have more money, 61 seems a lot for a book :\ 2017-10-13T05:09:50Z emaczen: jmercouris: Chapters 5 and 6 are free online 2017-10-13T05:10:24Z sjl: jmercouris: you can get it for around $25 if you don't mind buying used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0262610744/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr= 2017-10-13T05:10:58Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:11:23Z jmercouris: sjl: Interesting, thanks, I think I'll wait till I'm back in Germany to order 2017-10-13T05:11:54Z sjl: it's a good, mind-bendy book. I don't touch the metaobject stuff almost ever, but it was good to read anyway 2017-10-13T05:12:00Z jmercouris: or maybe I'll order it here, and read it when I get back from Germany... 2017-10-13T05:12:30Z jmercouris: Yeah, it is certainly nice to understand kind of what is going on behind the scenes 2017-10-13T05:13:37Z beach: jmercouris: Warning, though: Even as an experienced Lisper, I had to start reading it three times. The first two times, I was completely lost, so I had to put it down. 2017-10-13T05:14:05Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:14:08Z sjl: I'd agree with that 2017-10-13T05:14:13Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:14:21Z beach: jmercouris: So, what I am saying is that, even if you are lost, don't give up. You might have to try again. 2017-10-13T05:15:05Z beach: And people here in #lisp would probably be very happy to give some explanations. For you and for others who might be interested. 2017-10-13T05:15:45Z jmercouris: That's good to know, I appreciate the support :) 2017-10-13T05:16:01Z jmercouris: One thing that I've really liked about the lisp community is that it seems much smaller and friendlier than the others 2017-10-13T05:16:16Z jmercouris: as long as we exclude #emacs 2017-10-13T05:16:21Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T05:17:08Z beach: Sure, but we draw the line when we have to correct indentation and spacing for the umpteenth time, as would be required for some people who come here. 2017-10-13T05:17:35Z aeth: jmercouris: Most Lisp programmers use Emacs, but (afaik) most Emacs users don't program in Lisp, beyond perhaps some basic configuration elisp stuff. 2017-10-13T05:18:27Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:18:31Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T05:18:44Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T05:19:58Z jmercouris: I think that makes sense, part of being respectful of the time of other people is making sure that you have the basics down, and that you aren't wasting their time 2017-10-13T05:20:37Z jmercouris: Especially if you are asking on a public forum, whether it be stack overflow or otherwise, you should really focus on reducing the mental burden of the other person to understand your problem and help 2017-10-13T05:20:42Z jmercouris quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T05:20:59Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:21:06Z beach: Right. Especially since #lisp is not, as some people think, a "Lisp support channel". Newbie questions are tolerated as long as there is some indication that progress is being made. 2017-10-13T05:28:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:28:28Z takitus left #lisp 2017-10-13T05:28:58Z emaczen: How do you create a struct object with cffi? 2017-10-13T05:29:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T05:29:27Z emaczen: All I can seem to get is pointers or Bogus Objects -- whatever that is 2017-10-13T05:31:24Z loke: emaczen: What are you trying to achieve? 2017-10-13T05:33:10Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:33:37Z emaczen: I just want to create a C struct and set its fields 2017-10-13T05:33:56Z emaczen: loke: do you have to use a pointer? 2017-10-13T05:34:03Z loke: emaczen: Dynamic scope or malloced? 2017-10-13T05:34:28Z loke: It all comes down to how you are going to use the struct later. 2017-10-13T05:34:40Z loke: Do you need to pass an actual struct to a CFFI function, of a pointer to it? 2017-10-13T05:34:57Z emaczen: let me check 2017-10-13T05:35:14Z emaczen: I need a pointer 2017-10-13T05:36:02Z loke: Right. So what you need is some memory for the structure allocated. There are two ways of doing so: Either on the heap using basically malloc, or on the stack which has dynamic scope. 2017-10-13T05:36:34Z loke: For dynamic scope (the most common), just do this: 2017-10-13T05:36:40Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:36:56Z giraffe is now known as Guest30004 2017-10-13T05:37:03Z loke: (cffi:with-foreign-objects ((FOO '(:struct NAME-OF-STRUCT))) ...use FOO here...) 2017-10-13T05:37:44Z emaczen: loke: Ok, that is why I got "bogus objects" 2017-10-13T05:38:05Z emaczen: I tried to use it like a let form and return one of the objects 2017-10-13T05:38:22Z emaczen: the equivalent of malloc is #'cffi:foreign-alloc right? 2017-10-13T05:38:40Z loke: Then, you can simply set fields in the stuct using (setf (cffi:foreign-slot-value FOO '(:struct NAME-OF-STRUCT) 'FIELD-NAME) THE-NEW-VALUE) 2017-10-13T05:38:56Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:39:45Z loke: emaczen: yes. But then you have to make sure you free the memory properly later. Sometimes you can use TRIVIAL-GARBAGE to create a weak pointer so that you can free as paert of garbage collection. It depends a bit on circumstances. 2017-10-13T05:40:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:40:38Z loke: I do that here: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gss/blob/master/src/cl-gss.lisp#L46 2017-10-13T05:41:22Z emaczen: loke: so there is no way to just do struct name; name.field = value; ? 2017-10-13T05:41:39Z loke: emaczen: That was what I was showing you 2017-10-13T05:42:12Z loke: You nee dto put it in foriegn memory somehow. 2017-10-13T05:42:13Z emaczen: loke: Oh, that is the foreign-object way 2017-10-13T05:42:23Z neoncont_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T05:42:56Z loke: There is a plist representation of a struct value, but that's only used when you pass around literal structures. It's actually quite rare, and most C API's work with pointers to structs. 2017-10-13T05:43:00Z emaczen: loke: I forget that things inside main are just like any other function and would be dynamic 2017-10-13T05:43:57Z loke: If you want to see an example of a lot of complex struct processing which also includes heavy use of literal structs, you can take a look at my cl-rabbit project. 2017-10-13T05:44:36Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit/blob/master/src/amqp.lisp#L61 2017-10-13T05:45:58Z loke: In that function, RESULT is a literal struct (plist representation) as returned by a CFFI function that returns a literal struct. 2017-10-13T05:46:14Z loke: But the content of the struct of course contains pointers. 2017-10-13T05:46:47Z loke: You really need to understand what is going on on a low level, or you'll get mighty confused. 2017-10-13T05:47:24Z emaczen: I don't think I've ever seen literal structs in C before 2017-10-13T05:47:52Z loke: The rabbitmq-c library makes heavy use of them. 2017-10-13T05:48:01Z loke: Basically this: 2017-10-13T05:48:34Z loke: struct foo { ... }; Foo someFunc(Foo x); ← Takes a literal struct as argument and returns another literal struct 2017-10-13T05:48:56Z loke: More commonly, you'd see something like Foo *someFunc(Foo *x); 2017-10-13T05:49:24Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:51:34Z loke: I need to have some lunch 2017-10-13T05:52:29Z emaczen: loke: Thanks for explaining those parts of the API to me... 2017-10-13T05:52:43Z emaczen: C will probably always be a headache for me 2017-10-13T05:53:43Z shka_: c is headache for almost everyone 2017-10-13T05:53:59Z shka_: but it is still useful 2017-10-13T05:55:08Z elazul joined #lisp 2017-10-13T05:58:52Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T06:04:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T06:04:47Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:05:36Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-13T06:06:38Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:08:36Z Zhivago: I think you mean struct values rather than literal structs. 2017-10-13T06:09:03Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T06:11:05Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T06:14:00Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:14:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:25:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T06:27:03Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T06:31:24Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T06:31:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T06:33:26Z scottj left #lisp 2017-10-13T06:34:46Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:36:01Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T06:44:28Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:47:52Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:49:05Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:50:24Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-13T06:52:56Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T06:53:20Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:58:28Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-13T06:58:51Z Ven is now known as Guest43745 2017-10-13T06:59:12Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:06:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:10:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T07:16:30Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:19:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T07:32:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:33:25Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:34:36Z hajovonta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T07:35:00Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:36:44Z hajovonta: hi 2017-10-13T07:37:55Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:38:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:43:54Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T07:53:33Z beach: hello hajovonta. 2017-10-13T07:54:25Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T07:55:55Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:10:18Z phoe_: Hey hi hello 2017-10-13T08:10:31Z beach: phoe_: What's up? 2017-10-13T08:11:09Z phoe_: beach: Me, at work, doing Scrum technical management. 2017-10-13T08:11:17Z phoe_: At least they pay decently for that. 2017-10-13T08:11:26Z beach: Oh, you're a manager now? Nice! 2017-10-13T08:11:58Z phoe_: Nope, a product owner. 2017-10-13T08:12:07Z phoe_: Which is de facto a part of technical management. 2017-10-13T08:12:19Z beach: I see. 2017-10-13T08:16:23Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T08:17:14Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:18:13Z beach: I think I have a working CST-to-AST system, modulo silly mistakes of course. Now I am thinking of a system for computing indentation from a CST. Such a system would be structured in much the same way as a CST-to-AST system, i.e., it would determine whether a CST represents an atom, a function call, a special form, or a macro call. Function calls are simple. 2017-10-13T08:18:15Z beach: Special forms are fairly simple, because they have fixed indentation rules. For a macro call, the macro lambda list determines the indentation of the argument expressions, but then, whether an argument expression is a form or something else, can only be determined by expanding the macro. 2017-10-13T08:19:09Z phoe_: Are you going to expand the macros each single time then? What if they have side effects? 2017-10-13T08:19:32Z beach: Well, I can't handle every case. Macro expanders should not have side effects. 2017-10-13T08:19:33Z Shinmera: It's also often desirable to be able to give further hints as to how a macro should be indented as the lambda-list by its own does not provide sufficient information about that. 2017-10-13T08:19:37Z phoe_: (defmacro plus (&rest args) (print "hello") `(+ ,@args)) 2017-10-13T08:19:48Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T08:19:49Z phoe_: I see. Sounds plausible. 2017-10-13T08:19:51Z Shinmera: (also see: https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-indent ) 2017-10-13T08:19:53Z otwieracz: beach: Actually we use macro expanders with side effects „on production”. 2017-10-13T08:20:04Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T08:20:11Z phoe_: But then again, some macros like OPTIMA's and CL-PPCRE's expanders can be really freaky. 2017-10-13T08:20:18Z beach: otwieracz: Then I recommend you don't use the editor I am working on. 2017-10-13T08:20:21Z phoe_: Since they are there for compile-time computation. 2017-10-13T08:20:30Z otwieracz: beach: note to self: don't use beach editor 2017-10-13T08:20:30Z beach: I think the Common Lisp HyperSpec has some paragraph about how it is not known how many times a macro can be expanded. 2017-10-13T08:21:09Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:21:56Z otwieracz: beach: To be honets, my feeeling is that the editor will be broken if it wont work with something allowed in the language. 2017-10-13T08:22:02Z pjb: As long as you expect your macro side effects to be obtained at "random" times and multiple times… 2017-10-13T08:22:20Z beach: otwieracz: Then I am working on a very useful, but broken, editor. 2017-10-13T08:22:21Z pjb: It is expected that random lisp tools will macroexpand. 2017-10-13T08:22:23Z otwieracz: However, nevermind. 2017-10-13T08:22:35Z pjb: If something breaks, it's the macro fault. 2017-10-13T08:22:48Z beach: pjb: Yes, I am trying to find the relevant paragraph. 2017-10-13T08:23:21Z beach: otwieracz: There is a difference between what the language "allows" and what it defines the effect of. 2017-10-13T08:24:47Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:25:05Z pjb: one guarantee by 3.2.2.2 is All macro and symbol macro calls appearing in the source code being compiled are expanded at compile time in such a way that they will not be expanded again at run time. It doesn't mention edit-time… 2017-10-13T08:26:49Z pjb: I can't search more right now. 2017-10-13T08:27:14Z beach: Yeah, the Common Lisp HyperSpec is not very good with such searches, so it's painful. 2017-10-13T08:28:44Z [jlk] joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:34:23Z beach: Shinmera: Definitely very useful. If I use a structure similar to that of CST-to-AST, it will be trivially possible to customize the indentation of macro forms. 2017-10-13T08:35:33Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:37:55Z shka: there is no edit time in common lisp standard 2017-10-13T08:38:55Z beach: shka: In "the" Common Lisp standard. Article required. 2017-10-13T08:39:14Z shka: beach: … yes 2017-10-13T08:39:21Z antoszka: beach: is that editor of yours already available for checkout/building/testing anywhere? 2017-10-13T08:39:30Z shka: and yes, i do work on that manual 2017-10-13T08:39:43Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:39:54Z shka: just give me a moment, i need to sleep as well 2017-10-13T08:42:18Z beach: antoszka: No, it is not ready. 2017-10-13T08:42:38Z antoszka: OK, wasn't following the discussion too much. 2017-10-13T08:43:04Z beach: I'll keep you informed about my progress. :) 2017-10-13T08:43:05Z antoszka: beach: Are you planning to use (whatever)CLIM as the toolkit? 2017-10-13T08:43:41Z beach: Yes, but I have separated the GUI from the rest as much as possible, so it ought to be possible to use something else. 2017-10-13T08:44:52Z antoszka: Yeah, was just going to ask that as well, cool. 2017-10-13T08:45:21Z Shinmera: I know that the expansion of macros can happen multiple times, and I distinctly remember reading that in the CLHS, but I can't find it for the life of me 2017-10-13T08:45:23Z beach: CLIM/McCLIM makes so many things much simpler, though. I can't see myself re-implementing things like presentations for a different toolkit. 2017-10-13T08:45:53Z beach: Shinmera: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It is always very hard to find such things. 2017-10-13T08:48:04Z shka: Shinmera: every decent lisp book mentions this 2017-10-13T08:48:33Z Shinmera: Lisp books are not standards, though. 2017-10-13T08:48:37Z jackdaniel: "every" is an overstatement 2017-10-13T08:49:11Z beach: jackdaniel: To be fair, shka added "decent" to restrict the set. :) 2017-10-13T08:49:37Z shka: exactly ;-) 2017-10-13T08:49:56Z jackdaniel: yes, but I don't think that it is a must for a decent book to mention this particular thing 2017-10-13T08:50:23Z jackdaniel: for instance I don't think I've encountered such statement in CL Recipes, yet I think it is a very decent book 2017-10-13T08:52:21Z bwv joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:53:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-13T08:53:38Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T08:54:40Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-13T08:54:45Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T08:54:58Z phoe_: Shinmera: https://github.com/xach/dpans/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%22multiple+times%22&type= 2017-10-13T08:55:14Z phoe_: I've been grepping the dpans3 sources for "multiple times" and were unsuccessful so far. 2017-10-13T08:55:34Z Shinmera: I grepped for "expan" but there's way too much to trawl through 2017-10-13T08:55:44Z bwv left #lisp 2017-10-13T08:56:11Z phoe_: Shinmera: too much? about a hundred results 2017-10-13T08:56:33Z Shinmera: I grepped the hyperspec, fwiw 2017-10-13T09:02:52Z phoe_: "Macros intended for use in top level forms should be written so that side-effects are done by the forms in the macro expansion. The macro-expander itself should not do the side-effects. " 2017-10-13T09:02:56Z phoe_: via 2017-10-13T09:02:59Z phoe_: clhs eval-when 2017-10-13T09:02:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 2017-10-13T09:03:42Z phoe_: that's not a direct hit though. 2017-10-13T09:04:16Z Shinmera: I found that before but it's not what we're looking for. 2017-10-13T09:10:13Z phoe_: I cannot find such a thing. 2017-10-13T09:10:43Z Shinmera: I mean, it's implicit in the sense that the spec never says that it is only expanded once either. 2017-10-13T09:10:55Z Shinmera: It just says that all macros are expanded once you hit runtime. 2017-10-13T09:11:10Z phoe_: By the time you hit runtime, all macros are expanded. 2017-10-13T09:11:13Z phoe_: Correct? 2017-10-13T09:11:17Z Shinmera: Yes. 2017-10-13T09:11:45Z phoe_: So any side effects they might have had have fired. 2017-10-13T09:12:25Z Shinmera: clhs 3.2.2.2 2017-10-13T09:12:25Z specbot: Minimal Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm 2017-10-13T09:13:44Z Shinmera: And then there's 3.1.2.1.2.2 2017-10-13T09:13:50Z Shinmera: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.2 2017-10-13T09:13:50Z specbot: Macro Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababb.htm 2017-10-13T09:14:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-13T09:15:30Z phoe_: Basically, edit-time will be equivalent to compile-time then, since macros will need to be expanded, so their macro functions will need to be called. 2017-10-13T09:16:28Z phoe_: Gah, this problem is an issue of type "can God create a stone too heavy for him to lift". 2017-10-13T09:17:01Z phoe_: We got a language powerful enough to turn its source code into Brainfuck and we're looking for an even more powerful tool to handle its power. 2017-10-13T09:18:38Z phoe_: What would be a technical issue in another language is a social issue in Lisp. (: 2017-10-13T09:21:23Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T09:25:30Z kuwze quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T09:27:18Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T09:27:57Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-10-13T09:30:27Z Guest43745 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-13T10:42:21Z [jlk] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T10:42:53Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T10:43:34Z Bourne joined #lisp 2017-10-13T10:45:25Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T10:45:32Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T10:47:55Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T10:48:00Z yaocl quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-13T10:49:26Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T10:52:37Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T10:53:11Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-13T10:53:36Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-13T11:00:04Z joast quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T11:00:07Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T11:01:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:04:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T11:04:54Z dim: is it safe to conclude they already had copy/paste at the time when writing the spec? ;-) 2017-10-13T11:05:27Z Shinmera: It was 1990, not 1970 2017-10-13T11:12:30Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:12:39Z dim: (hence the smile, etc) 2017-10-13T11:16:40Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T11:21:46Z timack joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:22:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:23:32Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T11:23:57Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T11:28:39Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:30:04Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T11:30:30Z myrkraverk: Copy/paste or its predecessor kill/yank have been here since the 70s. 2017-10-13T11:31:34Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:34:34Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-13T11:40:50Z joast joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:43:22Z eminhi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T11:44:48Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:46:10Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:46:18Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:46:33Z Ven is now known as Guest45011 2017-10-13T11:51:32Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T11:52:07Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-13T11:52:26Z pjb: dim: it exists in ed(1)! 2017-10-13T11:52:43Z pjb: dim: cf. the t command (transfer). 2017-10-13T11:53:14Z pjb: So it probably pre-existed unix ed, after all, unix is but a simplified clone of older systems and software… 2017-10-13T11:54:16Z Shinmera: I mean, surely you also had machines to copy punch cards, yeah? 2017-10-13T11:54:16Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T11:54:40Z eminhi quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-13T11:54:58Z pjb: Indeed, there was a copy function in the 029… 2017-10-13T11:55:08Z pjb: And you could copy only between given columns! 2017-10-13T11:55:36Z pjb: And I'm sure some assistant spent time copying patch boards… 2017-10-13T11:57:00Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:08:28Z shka never, ever, seen machine with punch card input, even in museum 2017-10-13T12:10:08Z timack quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-13T12:10:57Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:11:05Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:14:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:24:22Z iqubic_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:24:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-13T12:24:46Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:26:45Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-13T12:30:58Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-13T12:33:26Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:36:50Z lieven has booted printers into the RSCS network with a stack of punch cards 2017-10-13T12:42:07Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T12:43:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T12:51:05Z pjb: shka: you have to look at early computers. Later, punched cards were copied first on an input spool tape (using a secondary computer), before being fed to the mainframe. 2017-10-13T12:51:28Z shka: aha! 2017-10-13T12:51:51Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0hDuCa_KlY 2017-10-13T12:53:09Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:54:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-13T12:55:28Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T13:00:27Z edgar-rft: email in the 1960's was sending punch-cards in envelopes with stamps on it 2017-10-13T13:00:40Z phoe_: oh you old boys 2017-10-13T13:01:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:01:47Z shka: phoe_: *men 2017-10-13T13:02:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T13:03:32Z Josh_2: pjb: what a racket that thing makes 2017-10-13T13:08:41Z shka: pjb: those machines look so well preservede 2017-10-13T13:08:47Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:09:13Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:09:34Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-13T13:12:59Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:16:06Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:27:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:27:48Z Ven is now known as Guest83577 2017-10-13T13:28:20Z Guest45011 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-13T13:28:39Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:28:41Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T13:30:47Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:31:43Z Guest83577 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T13:32:49Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T13:34:56Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:35:38Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T13:37:03Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T13:37:51Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:38:14Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T13:38:28Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:39:31Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T13:40:34Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:42:42Z yaocl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T13:43:14Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-13T13:48:22Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-10-13T13:53:00Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:53:38Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T13:56:41Z pjb: shka: the thing is that they were built with strong material. Like 5 mm steel. Just like a tank! 2017-10-13T13:57:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-13T13:57:16Z pjb: I had a sweedish terminal once like that. Indestructible. 2017-10-13T13:57:22Z eminhi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-13T13:57:31Z Ven is now known as Guest22988 2017-10-13T13:58:34Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-13T13:59:17Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T14:03:38Z neoncont_ is now known as neoncontrails 2017-10-13T14:03:53Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T14:06:30Z Josh_2: In On Lisp there are two examples as shown in this paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/358509 where one function takes a variable x as an argument to a function and that variable is considered bound, and then another example which takes the variable n as an argument to a function but that variable is considered free. This seems contradictory, is it? 2017-10-13T14:07:01Z mxb joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:07:27Z beach: Josh_2: It is free in the inner lambda. 2017-10-13T14:07:42Z phoe_: yes, depends on what you mean by "free" 2017-10-13T14:07:45Z beach: Josh_2: Read up on the lambda calculus for such terminology. 2017-10-13T14:07:46Z phoe_: and free where exactly 2017-10-13T14:07:59Z beach: phoe_: No, those definitions are well established. 2017-10-13T14:08:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:08:46Z mxb: Hi all. Anyone have experience with binary-types package? I'm struggling to try to define a binary-struct which references an earlier field and I'm not sure if it's possible to do so. (Basically parsing {type,length,data[length]} blobs 2017-10-13T14:08:46Z Josh_2: So because the variable n is used in a lambda it is considered free? 2017-10-13T14:08:48Z Josh_2: Ahh 2017-10-13T14:08:59Z phoe_: beach: yes, got it. 2017-10-13T14:09:07Z shka: pjb: 5mm? wow, i would never guessed 2017-10-13T14:09:11Z beach: Josh_2: Because it is used in a function, but it is not a parameter of that function. 2017-10-13T14:09:20Z Josh_2: I think I get it, the surrounding environment (defun ..) supplies the value 2017-10-13T14:09:27Z Josh_2: Okay thanks beach 2017-10-13T14:09:31Z phoe_: mxb: do you have any code of your own so far? 2017-10-13T14:09:36Z beach: sure. 2017-10-13T14:10:06Z mxb: phoe_: yeah, is there a #lisp paste place? 2017-10-13T14:10:21Z random-nick: paste.lisp.org 2017-10-13T14:10:23Z phoe_: mxb: http://paste.lisp.org 2017-10-13T14:10:36Z phoe_: with fancy CL syntax highlighting 2017-10-13T14:10:54Z beach: Josh_2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_variables_and_bound_variables 2017-10-13T14:11:44Z mxb: phoe_: I'm learning binary-types with PNG file format - my code is here http://paste.lisp.org/display/358510 2017-10-13T14:12:08Z mxb: PNG spec is here if it helps: https://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-PNG-20031110/#5Chunk-layout 2017-10-13T14:12:08Z beach: Josh_2: More relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#Free_variables 2017-10-13T14:12:12Z phoe_: mxb: somewhat unrelated, there already exist PNG readers written in portable CL 2017-10-13T14:12:34Z mxb: phoe_: yeah I know, this is just to learn the library :) 2017-10-13T14:12:40Z phoe_: :) 2017-10-13T14:12:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:13:42Z phoe_: I never used binary-types myself, but hopefully someone up there can take a peek at your code. 2017-10-13T14:13:45Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:13:51Z phoe_: Got any errors with this code so far? 2017-10-13T14:14:45Z mxb: phoe_: yes, during macro expansion of define-binary-string size is LENGTH, which is not of type (INTEGER 1 *) 2017-10-13T14:15:00Z mxb: which implies I cannot reference an earlier field in the struct 2017-10-13T14:15:02Z beach: phoe_: You might want to look at the last link as well. 2017-10-13T14:16:27Z phoe_: beach: got it. 2017-10-13T14:17:33Z phoe_: mxb: hah, this library is hardly documented at all. 2017-10-13T14:17:39Z mxb: yeah, :| 2017-10-13T14:20:06Z phoe_: Actually. 2017-10-13T14:20:16Z phoe_: I don't think you should have a DEFINE-BINARY-STRING up there, for some reason. 2017-10-13T14:21:02Z phoe_: https://github.com/frodef/binary-types/blob/master/binary-types.lisp#L375 2017-10-13T14:21:14Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:21:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-13T14:21:32Z phoe_: Since this a macro, then SIZE must be an integer before its evaluated - so it cannot be a variable. 2017-10-13T14:22:00Z Bike: oh, so this isn't gigamonkeys's? i'm pretty sure his could do that, since it's so common for binary formats 2017-10-13T14:22:23Z phoe_: Bike: https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-binary-data this you mean? 2017-10-13T14:23:07Z Bike: yeah, the one in pcl 2017-10-13T14:23:16Z phoe_: I see. 2017-10-13T14:23:39Z phoe_: frodef's binary-types might just need a huge revamp documentation-wise. 2017-10-13T14:23:47Z mxb: phoe_: Yes, it seemed like there are signed/unsigned binary integer types, and 'strings', which I took to be arbitary lengths of data 2017-10-13T14:23:50Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:23:55Z phoe_: mxb: not arbitrary. 2017-10-13T14:24:04Z phoe_: DEFINE-BINARY-STRING seems to create fixed-length strings. 2017-10-13T14:24:04Z tax joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:24:09Z phoe_: So it's most likely not what you are looking for. 2017-10-13T14:24:18Z phoe_: s/string/string types/ 2017-10-13T14:24:29Z mxb: Yes, I think that's the problem, as the length isn't known at compile time. 2017-10-13T14:24:38Z mxb: Is my understanding 2017-10-13T14:26:09Z Josh_2: I don't particularly understand lambda calc just like I don't understand normal calculus. However I found this sentence "The abstraction operator, λ, is said to bind its variable wherever it occurs in the body of the abstraction." 2017-10-13T14:26:15Z Josh_2: So that helps 2017-10-13T14:26:30Z Bike: lambda calculus doesn't share much with "calculus" 2017-10-13T14:26:39Z Bike: the only similarity is that you calculate things 2017-10-13T14:27:06Z Josh_2: I'm sure if I put some serious effort in I could learn some Lambda calc just like I could with normal calculus 2017-10-13T14:27:12Z Bike: well, and i suppose integration and differentiation can involve binding variables and so on 2017-10-13T14:27:28Z beach: Josh_2: The concept of free variables is very important to the compiler writer, because, in general, they can't be treated as simply as bound variables can. 2017-10-13T14:27:59Z phoe_: mxb: Yes, I think so. 2017-10-13T14:28:04Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:28:04Z beach: Josh_2: We work hard to preserve the illusion that things are simple. :) 2017-10-13T14:28:13Z phoe_: And I'm sorry that I can't help in this case. Maybe the library Bike suggested can deal with that. 2017-10-13T14:28:34Z xzd joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:28:36Z Bike: so, so hard 2017-10-13T14:28:49Z beach: Heh! 2017-10-13T14:29:24Z xzd: hi 2017-10-13T14:29:35Z beach: Hello xzd. 2017-10-13T14:30:58Z beach: xzd: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2017-10-13T14:31:05Z xzd: yes 2017-10-13T14:31:10Z Josh_2: noot noot welcome 2017-10-13T14:31:31Z beach: xzd: What brings you to #lisp? 2017-10-13T14:31:50Z antoszka: xzd: hello! 2017-10-13T14:31:53Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:32:03Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-13T14:33:32Z phoe_: I wish I had a #lisp full time job so I could spend all of my time and all of my attention on refining CL documentation and libraries. There's so much to be done in Common Lisp world and I am doing corporate dung instead. 2017-10-13T14:33:42Z phoe_: I need to figure out how to make it work. 2017-10-13T14:33:55Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:34:52Z Josh_2: Save some money, buy a van, live in the van using mobile internet and a laptop for 6 months of the year. 2017-10-13T14:35:22Z shka: like a lisp hippy! 2017-10-13T14:35:24Z Josh_2: Become a student again 2017-10-13T14:35:46Z Guest22988 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-13T14:35:47Z phoe_: University is a time-stealer. 2017-10-13T14:36:08Z Josh_2: I agree, my 11 hours of classes a week steal tons of time. 2017-10-13T14:36:10Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:36:36Z Ven_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-13T14:36:41Z phoe_: Add time spent preparing for these classes and transit between uni and non-uni. 2017-10-13T14:37:38Z Josh_2: Well I have a motorcycle so takes me 10 min to get to Uni. I guess you went to a much better Uni than mine if you need to prep for a class 2017-10-13T14:38:17Z phoe_: Just doing homework takes time, and sometimes there's a lot of homework needed before I get some programming or math concept. 2017-10-13T14:39:21Z Josh_2: Yeh you definitely went to a better Uni than me. 2017-10-13T14:39:29Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:39:33Z phoe_: "went" 2017-10-13T14:39:36Z phoe_: I'm still a student. 2017-10-13T14:39:40Z Josh_2: O 2017-10-13T14:39:45Z Josh_2: go* 2017-10-13T14:39:54Z phoe_: Been for about six years now, and I'm still on my second year out of five total. 2017-10-13T14:40:00Z Josh_2: I assumed you had graduated, my bad. 2017-10-13T14:40:05Z Josh_2: What are you doing? 2017-10-13T14:40:16Z phoe_: Being sick, being busy, being employed. 2017-10-13T14:40:30Z phoe_: Some people call it "real life". P: 2017-10-13T14:40:30Z Josh_2: I mean as a course 2017-10-13T14:40:39Z phoe_: Computer science. 2017-10-13T14:41:03Z Josh_2: 5 years is a long course 2017-10-13T14:41:20Z phoe_: It's from zero to master's degree. 2017-10-13T14:41:31Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:41:34Z Josh_2: Makes sense 2017-10-13T14:41:36Z phoe_: Which in Poland is five years. Three to bachelor, two more to master. 2017-10-13T14:41:53Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:42:06Z Bike: gee, i spent five years on the bachelor's 2017-10-13T14:42:10Z beach: phoe_: That would be the Bologna system, common to EU and many other countries. 2017-10-13T14:42:25Z phoe_: beach: yes. 2017-10-13T14:42:39Z Josh_2: Masters is 1 year if you have a honours degree in the UK 2017-10-13T14:42:49Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process 2017-10-13T14:45:30Z eminhi joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:51:08Z yaocl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T14:52:34Z shka: heh 2017-10-13T14:58:43Z yaocl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T14:59:51Z Shinmera: phoe_: My university requires you to complete the Bsc within five course years. 2017-10-13T15:00:22Z Shinmera: If you don't, you gotta start another major and try again from scratch, woo! 2017-10-13T15:00:33Z phoe_: Shinmera: so does mine. 2017-10-13T15:00:52Z phoe_: Let's say that I'm pushing the university laws to the maximum here. 2017-10-13T15:01:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:02:53Z cross joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:03:01Z Posterdati: hi 2017-10-13T15:03:08Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:03:12Z beach: Hello Posterdati. 2017-10-13T15:03:12Z Posterdati: fe[nl]ix: hi 2017-10-13T15:03:20Z Posterdati: beach: hello 2017-10-13T15:03:51Z Posterdati: please help, is it safe to use close on a iolib socket? 2017-10-13T15:04:00Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:04:06Z Posterdati: or hat to be used disconnect? 2017-10-13T15:08:23Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:08:27Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T15:10:28Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:11:16Z yaocl quit (Quit: yaocl) 2017-10-13T15:12:47Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T15:17:53Z nika quit 2017-10-13T15:21:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:22:07Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T15:22:34Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:22:41Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T15:23:32Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T15:24:32Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T15:24:38Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:28:05Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:28:05Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-10-13T15:28:05Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:28:18Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:33:05Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-10-13T15:34:30Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T15:36:55Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T15:38:56Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:42:38Z kuwze joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:43:15Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:43:31Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:43:47Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-13T15:46:31Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:47:27Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T15:47:40Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:48:14Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:48:40Z xzd quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-13T15:50:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T15:51:45Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:52:17Z elazul quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-13T15:53:35Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-13T15:54:09Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T15:54:50Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T15:59:15Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:02:13Z sjl_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-13T16:03:35Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:04:05Z Ichimusai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T16:04:12Z emaczen: how do you resolve symbol conflicts with cffi:defcfun? 2017-10-13T16:04:35Z emaczen: I'm trying to (cffi:defcfun "close" :int (file-descriptor :int)) 2017-10-13T16:04:48Z emaczen: maybe I should just foreign-funcall it? 2017-10-13T16:05:32Z Bike: you can provide your own lisp name 2017-10-13T16:05:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:06:07Z Bike: (defcfun ("close" c-close) ...) 2017-10-13T16:07:13Z emaczen: Bike: Ok, I see 2017-10-13T16:07:32Z emaczen: I like defcfun better than foreign-funcall 2017-10-13T16:07:45Z phoe_: because it's much more lispy 2017-10-13T16:08:32Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:10:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T16:10:51Z Bike: you could also define a package that shadows cl:close; might or might not make sense for you 2017-10-13T16:12:56Z phoe_: or make your defcfuns inside a different package that either does not :use CL or shadows it CLOSE symbol 2017-10-13T16:13:11Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-10-13T16:13:29Z emaczen: I really like what Bike suggested 2017-10-13T16:13:42Z phoe_: right, so then you can call MY-C-INTERFACE:CLOSE outside that package 2017-10-13T16:13:51Z Bike: (defcfun ("close" whatever:close) ...) then 2017-10-13T16:13:52Z phoe_: though if you USE that package anywhere else, you'll get another name conflict. 2017-10-13T16:14:15Z emaczen: No I mean I'm happy with (defcfun ("close" c-close) ...) 2017-10-13T16:14:42Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T16:14:45Z dlowe: one of my few complaints about cl is that it uses too many good genericish names 2017-10-13T16:14:50Z Bike: oh. well ok. 2017-10-13T16:15:06Z phoe_: dlowe: like T? (: 2017-10-13T16:15:10Z dlowe: phoe_: YES 2017-10-13T16:15:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:16:02Z Ichimusai joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:18:14Z sjl: t is the one that always bites me 2017-10-13T16:19:07Z phoe_: (let (p q r s t u v w x y z) ...) 2017-10-13T16:19:08Z phoe_: d'oh 2017-10-13T16:19:17Z SaganMan: haha, I just used t as variable and had some trouble 2017-10-13T16:19:32Z phoe_: SaganMan: I bet it was a compile-time error 2017-10-13T16:20:00Z SaganMan: yeah 2017-10-13T16:20:29Z SaganMan: btw the output of (if 4 5 6) is 5 2017-10-13T16:20:34Z SaganMan: what is that? 2017-10-13T16:20:42Z phoe_: (if test true false) 2017-10-13T16:20:43Z SaganMan: what hapened to 6? 2017-10-13T16:20:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:20:50Z SaganMan: ohhh 2017-10-13T16:20:58Z phoe_: if TEST is true, then TRUE is returned, otherwise FALSE is returned 2017-10-13T16:21:14Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T16:21:24Z phoe_: (if nil 5 6) ;=> 6 2017-10-13T16:21:33Z phoe_: and everything that isn't NIL is true in Lisp 2017-10-13T16:21:34Z jackdaniel: if test *evaluates* to true, true is evaluated and result of this evaluation is returned 2017-10-13T16:21:43Z jackdaniel: otherwise false is evaluated and result is returned 2017-10-13T16:21:51Z pjb: A true lisper would write: (let (p q r s tee u v w x y z) …) 2017-10-13T16:21:55Z phoe_: well yes, what jackdaniel said is more correct. (: 2017-10-13T16:21:55Z SaganMan: anything other than nil is true? 2017-10-13T16:21:58Z SaganMan: maan 2017-10-13T16:22:17Z phoe_: yes 2017-10-13T16:22:20Z pjb: a CLisper would write: (shadow 't) (let (p q r s t u v w x y z) …) 2017-10-13T16:22:26Z phoe_: so-called generalized booleans 2017-10-13T16:23:03Z phoe_ bbl 2017-10-13T16:24:09Z dlowe: A nice easter egg in sbcl is triggered by (set t nil) 2017-10-13T16:24:12Z dlowe: and its converse 2017-10-13T16:24:37Z SaganMan: I'm getting some sense of doing things in lisp 2017-10-13T16:24:44Z SaganMan: common lisp* 2017-10-13T16:25:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-13T16:25:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T16:25:46Z sjl: (let ((𐊗 1)) nil) 2017-10-13T16:25:53Z sjl: aw, it killed my unicode character 2017-10-13T16:26:37Z ecraven: I see top 2017-10-13T16:26:48Z ecraven: or rather, lycian letter t :P 2017-10-13T16:26:51Z sjl: ah, maybe it's my chat 2017-10-13T16:26:53Z sjl: #\LYCIAN_LETTER_T 2017-10-13T16:26:55Z sjl: heh 2017-10-13T16:27:54Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-13T16:28:30Z jackdaniel: (set nil t) is nice too 2017-10-13T16:29:58Z Josh_2: dlowe: I gave (set t nil) a shot and got Simple Error Veritas Aeterna or Eternal Truth 2017-10-13T16:30:20Z Josh_2: Maybe that is the easter egg :O 2017-10-13T16:30:39Z sjl: it is 2017-10-13T16:30:42Z Josh_2: Did I just spoil the easter egg... 2017-10-13T16:30:46Z dlowe: yes you did. 2017-10-13T16:30:55Z Josh_2: My bad 2017-10-13T16:31:03Z easye: It's a nice egg. 2017-10-13T16:31:06Z dlowe: literally ruined 2017-10-13T16:31:23Z Josh_2: Yep sorry about that. 2017-10-13T16:31:30Z easye: Probably Easter according to some religion in the universe. 2017-10-13T16:31:35Z dlowe: I'm going to have to switch lisp implementations now. 2017-10-13T16:34:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:35:38Z Bike: huh, define-symbol-macro isn't defined to have any compile time effects. weird oversight 2017-10-13T16:35:53Z osune joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:39:45Z Xal left #lisp 2017-10-13T16:41:02Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T16:42:08Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:43:06Z pjb: Т т <- is nice 2017-10-13T16:50:28Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T16:54:56Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-13T16:57:47Z emaczen: is there a cffi way to use sizeof? 2017-10-13T16:58:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T16:59:00Z eminhi quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-13T16:59:51Z jackdaniel: emaczen: cffi:foreign-type-size 2017-10-13T16:59:54Z Bike: no, sizeof is not an operator available at runtime. you can use something like grovel to keep that information 2017-10-13T16:59:59Z flip214: emaczen: foreign-type-size 2017-10-13T17:00:01Z Bike: oh, my mistake then... 2017-10-13T17:00:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-13T17:00:45Z flip214: Bike: in CFFI the structures still have some meta information left for use... 2017-10-13T17:00:57Z flip214: in a compiled C program you've only got some integers in the code, right. 2017-10-13T17:01:13Z Bike: suppose that makes sense. i see there's an alignof as well 2017-10-13T17:02:07Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:13:26Z emaczen: the last thing I don't see is how to typecast 2017-10-13T17:13:57Z emaczen: Like (struct name*)argument in a function call 2017-10-13T17:15:16Z phoe_: typecast? why? 2017-10-13T17:15:21Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:15:25Z phoe_: you have pointers 2017-10-13T17:15:47Z detectiveaoi joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:15:51Z emaczen: I'm looking at C code that typecasts to the more general pointer 2017-10-13T17:15:52Z phoe_: when you dereference a pointer, you tell CFFI what you expect to have underneath that pointer - if it's an int, a float or a structure of type X 2017-10-13T17:16:05Z phoe_: in CFFI, pointers don't have types. 2017-10-13T17:16:16Z detectiveaoi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T17:16:23Z emaczen: phoe_: Ok, I think I see my mistake in reading the C code then -- that makes sense too 2017-10-13T17:16:31Z phoe_: you don't declare the type when you grab a pointer, you declare the type when you dereference it. 2017-10-13T17:16:36Z osune: phoe_: so all is a void* ? 2017-10-13T17:16:46Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:16:55Z phoe_: osune: there's no void* in CFFI either (: 2017-10-13T17:17:03Z osune: phoe_: i see :) 2017-10-13T17:17:14Z Bike: cffi is like the c virtual machine minus the c. it takes a little time to get used to 2017-10-13T17:17:16Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T17:17:54Z phoe_: pointers are simply numbers after all, uint32 or uint64 depending on architecture. CFFI uses exactly this philosophy. 2017-10-13T17:17:58Z Bike: you can specify the type of pointers, but i think cffi ignores it 2017-10-13T17:18:34Z osune: while we are at CFFI, somebody knows a library for libevdev? I still have quite a hard time to wrap my head around cffi to do it myself but if there is nothing I'll have no other option then to do it myself 2017-10-13T17:18:38Z Bike: i'm not sure if a c implementation is allowed to use different representations for different pointer types 2017-10-13T17:20:02Z jackdaniel: phoe_: that is so untrue (re pointers = numbers) 2017-10-13T17:20:37Z jackdaniel: cffi store more exact information about pointer type, but what implementation gets is indeed just :pointer 2017-10-13T17:20:45Z jackdaniel: before collapse it is for instance (:pointer :string) 2017-10-13T17:21:29Z phoe_: jackdaniel: a pointer is a value, a memory offset, which is a number - am I wrong here? 2017-10-13T17:21:50Z Bike: yeah, you can have segmented memory and stuff. 2017-10-13T17:22:07Z Bike: C is actually pretty vague about how memory works 2017-10-13T17:22:09Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T17:22:44Z Bike: you can allocate a block and use arithmetic on pointers in that block, but as soon as you go outside it's UB land, iirc 2017-10-13T17:23:10Z phoe_: that's what the C standard says AFAIR, yes 2017-10-13T17:23:35Z jackdaniel: you can use pointer arigthmetic on pointers 2017-10-13T17:25:06Z jackdaniel: but if it were just a number, than uint foo = my_ptr; foo++; my_ptr=foo; should yield in the same thing as my_ptr++ 2017-10-13T17:25:18Z jackdaniel: from what I know, conforming c compiler should reject such assignment 2017-10-13T17:25:59Z jackdaniel: but if it doesn't, you come into bigger trouble. so there is a good reason for error ;) 2017-10-13T17:26:01Z Bike: i think that needs a cast, yeah 2017-10-13T17:26:20Z dlowe: jack_rabbit: uh, not true. The amount my_ptr is incremented depends on the size/align of the underlying type. 2017-10-13T17:26:41Z jackdaniel: dlowe: exactly, that's why you can't treat pointers as numbers 2017-10-13T17:26:43Z Bike: that's why the "uint foo = my_ptr" is problematic, yes? 2017-10-13T17:27:01Z dlowe: but if you knwo the size/align of the underlying type, you *can* do it 2017-10-13T17:27:22Z dlowe: you probably want to use intptr_t though to make sure the pointer fits 2017-10-13T17:27:30Z jackdaniel: dlowe: actually you can't, unless you want to come to undefined behavior land 2017-10-13T17:28:02Z Bike: try the kombucha 2017-10-13T17:30:18Z jackdaniel: also I'm not sure, but I have a suspiction that there is no mention in C standard, that pointers are numbers at all 2017-10-13T17:31:06Z dlowe: nor that chars are numbers, but you can still cast them :) 2017-10-13T17:31:25Z jackdaniel: such assumptions lead to very bad software 2017-10-13T17:31:39Z jackdaniel: either way, time for me, hf o/ 2017-10-13T17:31:41Z dlowe: but yeah, the only guarantee is that you can cast a pointer to a number and back and get the same pointer 2017-10-13T17:34:56Z jackdaniel: well, you can't (portably), because you don't know if pointer will fit in any integer you have 2017-10-13T17:35:02Z jackdaniel: that's why uintptr_t was invented 2017-10-13T17:35:07Z jackdaniel: which provides such guarantees 2017-10-13T17:35:24Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:35:28Z dlowe: sure. That number. 2017-10-13T17:36:32Z _death: such assumptions are made by practically every lisp implementation :) 2017-10-13T17:40:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:40:37Z tax: does having multiple namespaces in common lisp yield a major benefit over lisp-1 languages? why do even popular industry languages like clojure use/choose a lisp-1? seems like namespaces would be useful. what am i missing or not understanding? 2017-10-13T17:41:20Z _death: pointers are numbers in the same sense that "everything is a number".. what is usually meant is that they can be represented as numbers.. there are some gotchas for the unwary, though.. for example the null pointer (0) may not be represented as all-bits-off numeric zero 2017-10-13T17:41:41Z phoe_: tax: lisp-1 languages are usually pretty heavy on functional programming, and Clojure is not an exception here 2017-10-13T17:42:13Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T17:42:39Z phoe_: CL has multiple namespaces actually - variables/symbol macros, functions/macros, classes/conditions/types, restarts... and the user can create and define their own ones 2017-10-13T17:43:24Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:44:12Z phoe_: when you're heavy on functional programming, you might want to use a shortcut where e.g. FOO always means a function 2017-10-13T17:44:15Z Ichimusai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T17:44:40Z phoe_: so (frobnicate foo bar baz) <- here FOO refers to a function if we're in a Lisp-1 2017-10-13T17:44:52Z phoe_: which is troublesome with the most obvious example being LIST 2017-10-13T17:44:57Z phoe_: which in Scheme is a function 2017-10-13T17:45:14Z phoe_: and in CL is a function, a type, and also is commonly used as a variable name 2017-10-13T17:46:04Z phoe_: (defun ensure-list (list) (if (typep list 'list) list (list list))) <- hey, that's five LIST symbols next to each other, not counting parens and quotes 2017-10-13T17:46:20Z phoe_: (and also not good CL code) 2017-10-13T17:46:41Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T17:47:21Z phoe_: but then again, I'm not a Schemer - I'm used to CL so I can mostly tell you the CL viewpoint. 2017-10-13T17:48:07Z _death: sounds like you need to (deftype buffalo () 'list) (defalias buffalo list) 2017-10-13T17:48:16Z dlowe: phoe_: scheme has multiple namespaces too. This lisp-n idea needs to die. 2017-10-13T17:48:38Z phoe_: dlowe: write a blog post about it and post it on /r/lisp so we can reference it for the future. 2017-10-13T17:48:49Z dlowe: phoe_: hm. I might. 2017-10-13T17:48:59Z emaczen: in cffi:defcstruct will cffi automatically convert - to _ for field names? 2017-10-13T17:49:18Z Bike: does it even need C field names? 2017-10-13T17:49:44Z phoe_: dlowe: pretty please - I'd really read about that. 2017-10-13T17:50:01Z emaczen: from the manual: (defcstruct point (x :int) (y :int)) 2017-10-13T17:50:45Z Ichimusai joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:50:50Z Bike: that doesn't mean the field names need to match the C ones, i mean 2017-10-13T17:53:28Z SaganMan: are there other languages which have cl's defun &optional? 2017-10-13T17:53:55Z Bike: optional parameters? sure. the -p option is proably rarer, though. 2017-10-13T17:54:37Z SaganMan: does C has optional parameters Bike? 2017-10-13T17:54:43Z Bike: not really. 2017-10-13T17:55:13Z SaganMan: what about python? 2017-10-13T17:55:41Z Bike: check it, i googled "python optional" and this appeared http://www.diveintopython.net/power_of_introspection/optional_arguments.html 2017-10-13T17:57:12Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T17:57:43Z _death: the subtle details make CL the only language to have CL-like &optional/&key, afaik 2017-10-13T17:57:55Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-13T17:57:55Z Bike: yeah that's what i meant ot get at with the -p 2017-10-13T18:00:44Z SaganMan: But CL has it better than python 2017-10-13T18:01:20Z SaganMan: _death: yeah 2017-10-13T18:02:36Z sjl: I do miss Python's "all arguments can be keyword args if you want" sometimes 2017-10-13T18:02:47Z sjl: def foo(a, b): return a+b 2017-10-13T18:02:52Z sjl: foo(b=1, a=2) 2017-10-13T18:03:13Z sjl: in CL you can't use kwargs if the function wasn't defined to explicitly take them 2017-10-13T18:03:14Z _death: you mean that they can be used positionally as well? 2017-10-13T18:03:20Z sjl: yes 2017-10-13T18:03:31Z sjl: foo(1, 2) will work, but you *can* use the kwargs if you want 2017-10-13T18:03:33Z _death: &rest :) 2017-10-13T18:04:07Z sjl: I... don't think that works? 2017-10-13T18:04:16Z _death: why not? you can process the list as you wish 2017-10-13T18:04:37Z emaczen: I keep getting this error: The value (S-ADDR 31235) is not of the expected type CCL:MACPTR. -- http://paste.lisp.org/display/358528 2017-10-13T18:04:48Z sjl: (defun foo (&rest args &key a b) ...) 2017-10-13T18:04:55Z sjl: you cannot call this like (foo 1 2) 2017-10-13T18:04:58Z emaczen: I have no idea why, the slot wants a :uint32 and that is exactly what inet-addr returns 2017-10-13T18:05:10Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-13T18:05:23Z sjl: or are you just saying use &rest and manually process the arglist in the function body myself? 2017-10-13T18:06:03Z _death: sjl: yeah.. (defun foo (&rest args) (python-destructuring-bind (a b) args ...)) 2017-10-13T18:06:24Z sjl: that works, but you lose the nice arglist in slime/etc 2017-10-13T18:06:26Z Bike: it seems foreign-slot-value expects a pointer, not a (:struct in-addr) 2017-10-13T18:06:42Z _death: sjl: you can wrap it in a macro and extend slime-autodoc :) 2017-10-13T18:07:08Z sjl: I'm content to just suffer 2017-10-13T18:07:22Z Bike: so you could use foreign-slot-pointer to get a (:pointer (:struct in-addr)) instead, and then get the s-addr from there 2017-10-13T18:07:24Z _death: sjl: anyway, python also has thing sillyness of evaluating the default forms once at definition time, no? 2017-10-13T18:07:29Z _death: *this 2017-10-13T18:07:29Z Bike: @emaczen 2017-10-13T18:07:46Z sjl: _death: yeah, I don't miss that 2017-10-13T18:07:48Z emaczen: Bike: I just changed the inner cffi:foreign-slot-value to cffi:foreign-slot-pointer 2017-10-13T18:07:52Z pjb: SaganMan: of course, C has ... 2017-10-13T18:08:17Z emaczen: Bike: That seems to work, but now I have a new errno setting... haha 2017-10-13T18:08:18Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T18:08:21Z pjb: So it really has optional parameters, and keyword parameters, etc, just like CL. You just need to implement a library using stdarg.h 2017-10-13T18:09:32Z SaganMan: ohh, just googled https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19212040/how-can-i-make-a-function-with-optional-arguments-in-c 2017-10-13T18:09:40Z SaganMan: yeah pjb, you're right 2017-10-13T18:10:25Z _death: pjb: unlike CL, you lose compiler checks :) 2017-10-13T18:11:07Z SaganMan: but pjb, can all arguements in a fuction of C be optional? don't you get "too few arguements" 2017-10-13T18:12:05Z pjb: SaganMan: of course, you need to have a way to indicate the actual number of arguments. 2017-10-13T18:12:45Z _death: the types as well.. all functions could look like printf 2017-10-13T18:13:45Z _death: add("%d%d%pd", 1, 2, &result); 2017-10-13T18:13:45Z SaganMan: ah, pain in ass 2017-10-13T18:13:46Z pjb: For the types, you can always use lisp objects. 2017-10-13T18:14:23Z pjb: add(3,number(3),number(2),number(1),&results) 2017-10-13T18:14:39Z pjb: SaganMan: basically, just use libecl! 2017-10-13T18:14:42Z _death: true :) 2017-10-13T18:15:27Z _death: result = add(list(number(3),number(2),number(1))); 2017-10-13T18:15:40Z SaganMan: yeah 2017-10-13T18:16:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-13T18:16:49Z pjb: _death: nope. (+ 1 2 3) vs. (+ (list 1 2 3)) 2017-10-13T18:17:06Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T18:17:18Z pjb: _death: CL functions can return multiple values, so you cannot use result=f(), but you have to use f(…,&results) 2017-10-13T18:17:33Z _death: pjb: the caller builds up the &rest list.. you could then define one function to call them all, apply(symbol("add"),list(...)) 2017-10-13T18:18:09Z pjb: So you have to write: list(3,number(3),number(2),number(1),&results); apply(2,add,results[0],&results); 2017-10-13T18:18:21Z _death: pjb: the result is assumed to always be a list 2017-10-13T18:18:27Z pjb: No. 2017-10-13T18:18:31Z _death: pjb: poor man's multiple values 2017-10-13T18:18:41Z pjb: The point of multiple values is that they are not allocated into a lisp object. 2017-10-13T18:19:00Z pjb: This channel is about CL, let's be serious. 2017-10-13T18:19:10Z _death: so let's no write C :) 2017-10-13T18:21:02Z Xach: phoe_: do you understand the problem in http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-10-12/failure-report/asd-generator.html#asd-generator? 2017-10-13T18:21:33Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-13T18:21:47Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T18:26:55Z haom joined #lisp 2017-10-13T18:30:35Z Bock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T18:30:46Z haom: hello, what is the way to format variables into strings by their names, like "My name is $name." => "My name is Mike." 2017-10-13T18:31:23Z haom: instead of using format nil "My name is ~A." name 2017-10-13T18:31:23Z _death: cl-interpol? 2017-10-13T18:32:16Z Xach: cl-interpol is one easy way 2017-10-13T18:32:31Z _death: personally I use (out "My name is " name ".") 2017-10-13T18:32:34Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T18:33:18Z Xach: is that drew mcdermott's thing? 2017-10-13T18:33:25Z haom: nice, thanks, cl-interpol is exactly what i looked for. 2017-10-13T18:33:57Z _death: Xach: my adaptation of it, yeah 2017-10-13T18:34:28Z _death: Xach: https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp 2017-10-13T18:34:35Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T18:35:06Z Xach: ah 2017-10-13T18:40:41Z ym joined #lisp 2017-10-13T18:41:15Z aeth: _death: Is out modelled on C++'s way of doing things? 2017-10-13T18:41:19Z aeth: That looks very C++ 2017-10-13T18:41:21Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T18:42:02Z ym: What classic book describes building of simple lisp compiler/interpreter? 2017-10-13T18:42:30Z ym: I remember I read one, but can't remind it's name. 2017-10-13T18:42:31Z emaczen: ym: look on cliki.net 2017-10-13T18:42:34Z pjb: LISP 2017-10-13T18:42:53Z pjb: Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 2017-10-13T18:42:57Z emaczen: You can find several and I think pjb is referencing John Mccarthy's original paper, which is on that site too 2017-10-13T18:42:58Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T18:43:15Z sjl: SICP does, I think PAIP probably does. Lisp in Small Pieces goes into much more depth. 2017-10-13T18:43:19Z _death: aeth: no, it is modelled on principle of Lisp - use Lisp conses and atoms for structured information 2017-10-13T18:43:20Z pjb: context 2017-10-13T18:43:42Z emaczen: there is a free online books sections at cliki.net 2017-10-13T18:43:51Z _death: aeth: see http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html 2017-10-13T18:44:01Z ym: Thanks. I love lisp community and particularly this channel. 2017-10-13T18:44:02Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358528 -- see anything wrong with my defcstructs? I'm getting ERRNO=47, EAFNOSUPPORT 2017-10-13T18:44:09Z aeth: _death: Your out example looks like `cout << "My name is " << name << ".";' except more concise because you don't need to use < " v)))) ==> "two => 2, forty-two => 42" 2017-10-13T19:06:10Z Bike: emaczen: what address family did you use? AF_INET? 2017-10-13T19:07:27Z Bike: emaczen: i mean, that doesn't sound like a problem with your data layout 2017-10-13T19:07:46Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:09:00Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T19:09:29Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:09:49Z Bike: emaczen: though i guess this might not be the right sockaddr_in definition for your system 2017-10-13T19:10:47Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T19:12:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:15:09Z emaczen: Bike: One second, I just googled a bunch of types, made some changes and am testing 2017-10-13T19:15:35Z emaczen: Bike: Nope same error 2017-10-13T19:15:42Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-13T19:15:52Z emaczen: I'm making a paste 2017-10-13T19:15:53Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:16:35Z aeth: _death: thanks for the examples 2017-10-13T19:19:16Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:20:56Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358528#1 2017-10-13T19:21:14Z emaczen: Bike: Is there a convenient way to get the typedefs/#defines? 2017-10-13T19:21:46Z phoe_: emaczen: cl-autowrap is what I use 2017-10-13T19:21:47Z pjb: emaczen: no. 2017-10-13T19:21:57Z phoe_: it's an overkill tool 2017-10-13T19:21:58Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-13T19:21:59Z phoe_: but works. 2017-10-13T19:22:03Z pjb: emaczen: it's partly why I started writing a C compiler in CL. 2017-10-13T19:22:18Z pjb: emaczen: for now, the pre-processor is implemented, it should be usable to get the #defines. 2017-10-13T19:22:33Z davazp joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:22:34Z pjb: (including processing the #if etc) 2017-10-13T19:22:36Z emaczen: pjb: even C macro expansions? 2017-10-13T19:22:41Z pjb: Yes. 2017-10-13T19:23:06Z pjb: It produces the stream of C token (as a list). 2017-10-13T19:23:46Z pjb: for typedefs, you'll have to wait implementation of the compiler. Or use something like swig/cffi, but it is very deficient. 2017-10-13T19:24:06Z emaczen: I'll just keep doing it manually for the time being... 2017-10-13T19:24:25Z davazp left #lisp 2017-10-13T19:24:38Z emaczen: This is really helping me with CFFI, once I get this to work I may give objc OpenStep a crack 2017-10-13T19:26:06Z emaczen: At least I can deal with C this way... recompiling just to see a different errno and writing so much code just to do that! 2017-10-13T19:28:10Z davazp joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:28:43Z pjb: emaczen: you may want to have a look at https://matthias.benkard.de/objective-cl/ 2017-10-13T19:29:56Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T19:31:03Z emaczen: pjb: I'll bookmark it, I still got a ways to go for CFFI I think... 2017-10-13T19:31:03Z davazp joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:32:08Z emaczen: what about an emacs mode to M-. typedefs and so forth? 2017-10-13T19:32:16Z emaczen: I asked in #emacs but got no reply 2017-10-13T19:32:19Z davazp left #lisp 2017-10-13T19:32:58Z Bike: emaczen: maybe it's in man 7 ip 2017-10-13T19:33:24Z pjb: emaczen: CFFI is ok, it's the various ways to parse C headers and generate CFFI code that are wrong. 2017-10-13T19:34:12Z pjb: Mostly, because they can't deal with all the specificities of C headers. Eg. #pragma pack are ignored. 2017-10-13T19:34:36Z emaczen: what is 7? 2017-10-13T19:34:49Z Bike: the section of the manual 2017-10-13T19:35:01Z Bike: "man 7 ip" in your terminal, or maybe you're on windows 2017-10-13T19:35:40Z emaczen: M-x man 2017-10-13T19:35:52Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T19:36:11Z emaczen: I see ip(4) 2017-10-13T19:36:28Z emaczen: I'm on OSX 2017-10-13T19:36:33Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:37:19Z Bike: what functions are you using? 2017-10-13T19:37:32Z emaczen: with? 2017-10-13T19:37:38Z Bike: ah, it's man 4 inet 2017-10-13T19:38:00Z Bike: struct sockaddr_in { short; u_short; struct in_addr; char[8]; } 2017-10-13T19:39:06Z emaczen: struct sockaddr_in { __uint8_t sin_len; sa_family_t sin_family; in_port_t sin_port; struct in_addr sin_addr; char sin_zero[8];}; 2017-10-13T19:39:26Z emaczen: that's what mine looks like in netinet/in.h 2017-10-13T19:40:54Z _death: emaczen: do you know about cffi-grovel 2017-10-13T19:41:13Z emaczen: not really, I see it as a section in the manual 2017-10-13T19:41:29Z _death: emaczen: so check it out 2017-10-13T19:41:39Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:42:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T19:42:53Z emaczen: is the synopsis of my paste that I might have the incorrect types? 2017-10-13T19:43:01Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T19:44:55Z _death: your paste contains a reference to a lookup operator that's not given 2017-10-13T19:45:22Z emaczen: _death: yes, I know that works it returns 2 which is what AF_INET is #defined to be 2017-10-13T19:48:44Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-13T19:48:45Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:51:48Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-13T19:52:19Z _death: it's possible that the layout you describe doesn't match your system's layout.. grovel may be useful here. some quick checks you may try: comparing the struct sizes, offsets for each slot, or simply printing out filled instances that are supposed to be equivalent in both languages 2017-10-13T19:52:57Z _death: (byte representation of filled instances) 2017-10-13T19:53:39Z emaczen: _death: good idea. 2017-10-13T19:53:43Z emaczen: I'll be doing that for awhile now... 2017-10-13T19:53:56Z emaczen: _death: thanks though, I really need help when it comes to C 2017-10-13T19:54:01Z _death: to be portable you'd still need to grovel 2017-10-13T19:54:26Z emaczen: _death: Once I get this to work, I'll try it because I do want this to work on different Linux machines too 2017-10-13T19:54:31Z emaczen: I'm on OSX right now 2017-10-13T19:54:47Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T19:55:32Z _death: or come up with a simpler interface and implement it in C.. unless you're actually going for sockets, and then - why not use the one defined by your implementation? 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2017-10-13T21:14:26Z Xach: phoe_: i suspect you need :verbose t to see the warning. it is clear that the code is wrong just by looking at it. 2017-10-13T21:15:40Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:15:51Z Xach: https://github.com/phoe/asd-generator/blob/master/asd-generator.lisp defines all-pathnames with one arg and then immediately calls it with two. 2017-10-13T21:15:59Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:17:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-13T21:18:37Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-13T21:20:20Z phoe_: Xach: one second 2017-10-13T21:21:11Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:23:14Z phoe_: yes, this is a valid issue. I raised https://github.com/phoe/asd-generator/issues/7 on the person who wrote this code, I hope he responds tomorrow or the day after. 2017-10-13T21:23:30Z phoe_: How burning is this regarding the new Quicklisp dist? 2017-10-13T21:23:51Z Xach: medium heat 2017-10-13T21:24:01Z Xach: the uiop 3.3.0 thing is a bigger deal by far 2017-10-13T21:24:02Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-13T21:24:33Z phoe_: Okay - I'll try to fix it on my own if the person doesn't respond tomorrow or on Sunday. Deal? 2017-10-13T21:24:43Z Xach: sure 2017-10-13T21:25:37Z phoe_: Okay. 2017-10-13T21:28:57Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-13T21:40:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:40:42Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:42:05Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T21:44:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:45:13Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T21:50:41Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:51:08Z libre-man quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-10-13T21:51:10Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:51:33Z libre-man joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:51:40Z libre-man quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-13T21:51:45Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-13T21:53:11Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:53:11Z libre-man joined #lisp 2017-10-13T21:53:46Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T21:59:08Z foom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T21:59:28Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:03:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:03:12Z bigos: Besides LTK,do you know of any gui library that works on both Linux and Windows? 2017-10-13T22:03:37Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T22:07:11Z alexmlw quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:08:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:10:26Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:10:31Z Shinmera: Qtools. 2017-10-13T22:10:32Z p_l: bigos: CommonQT does, as does EQL (ECL-specific). Some of the GTK interfaces, if you get them to run, should work cross-platform 2017-10-13T22:10:44Z p_l: and yes, Qtools, which uses CommonQT 2017-10-13T22:10:48Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2017-10-13T22:11:31Z bigos: i Looked at it on Linux and was impressed, the problem is I can't install QT on windows 2017-10-13T22:11:41Z bigos: qt website has changed 2017-10-13T22:11:50Z Shinmera: If you use Qtools you don't need to install anything anywhere. 2017-10-13T22:12:02Z bigos: ??? 2017-10-13T22:12:10Z Shinmera: ? ? 2017-10-13T22:12:21Z bigos: i thought i needed qt dlls somewhere 2017-10-13T22:12:30Z Shinmera: It downloads them for you. 2017-10-13T22:12:37Z bigos: ahh 2017-10-13T22:12:42Z Shinmera: Because you need more than just the Qt dlls 2017-10-13T22:12:46Z bigos: i will try in few minutes 2017-10-13T22:12:48Z Shinmera: And the way to get them is incredibly painful. 2017-10-13T22:12:54Z bigos: agreed 2017-10-13T22:12:57Z bigos: brb 2017-10-13T22:13:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:14:54Z bigos: I'll start Windows on the laptop and will try it 2017-10-13T22:16:21Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:18:17Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T22:19:47Z bigos: p_l: none of the GTK interfaces worked, I had most success with cl-cffi-gtk, but its github page admits it crashes when you try to move the window 2017-10-13T22:19:58Z Shinmera: Oh dear 2017-10-13T22:20:09Z bigos: yes 2017-10-13T22:20:33Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:20:47Z bigos: other interfaces i tried failed to install properly for one reason or another 2017-10-13T22:20:55Z p_l: bigos: I think all are pretty much abandoned by now except for GTK backend of Common Graphics, and that's proprietary to ACL 2017-10-13T22:21:34Z p_l would honestly expect franz's clim to build better than any of the GTK interfaces 2017-10-13T22:21:58Z bigos: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#gui i have tried this list 2017-10-13T22:22:44Z bigos: ceramic failed to install, at some point i got message that something failed to compile on Linux, I did not try it on windows 2017-10-13T22:23:16Z shrdlu68: I've never bothered to check this, how much is the cheapest of the commercial implementations? 2017-10-13T22:24:30Z Shinmera: Probably MOCL (200$) 2017-10-13T22:24:32Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:25:21Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:28:52Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:29:35Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:30:12Z bigos: qtools failed on ccl and sbcl on windows, i was trying to follow example from https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/examples/helloworld/helloworld.lisp 2017-10-13T22:30:13Z pjb: bigos: cf. http://www.cliki.net/pgl http://www.cliki.net/GUI 2017-10-13T22:30:42Z bigos: alien function sw_find_class is undefined 2017-10-13T22:31:19Z bigos: i'mnot sure if i ran the example correctly 2017-10-13T22:31:32Z Shinmera: That fucking error again 2017-10-13T22:31:33Z bigos: i was copuyng sexps and pasting them in the repl 2017-10-13T22:32:20Z bigos: do you have windows testers? 2017-10-13T22:32:26Z Shinmera: Can you restart the REPL and then just do (ql:quickload :qtools-helloworld) followed by (qtools-helloworld:main) 2017-10-13T22:32:31Z Shinmera: Yes, myself. 2017-10-13T22:32:52Z Shinmera: Simply copypasting things in that file isn't going to cut it because of the dependencies. 2017-10-13T22:32:53Z widp quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-13T22:34:24Z Shinmera: If you want to follow an example and not just run one, follow the documentation. https://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2017-10-13T22:35:21Z bigos: hurray? it works 2017-10-13T22:35:26Z Shinmera: Good. 2017-10-13T22:36:04Z Shinmera: The sw_find_class error is due to it not having loaded the libraries properly. 2017-10-13T22:36:04Z bigos: fine under ccl 2017-10-13T22:37:30Z Shinmera: Anyway, it's like past midnight here and my eyes feel like they have thicker crust than bread that's been baked for ten years. 2017-10-13T22:37:51Z Shinmera: If you encounter any other problems, write an issue ticket on github, or hope people here will be able to help you. 2017-10-13T22:38:01Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:38:03Z Shinmera: Good night! 2017-10-13T22:38:43Z bigos: good night 2017-10-13T22:38:58Z bigos: thank you 2017-10-13T22:40:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:40:09Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:44:01Z marcux_ joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:44:21Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:46:14Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-13T22:47:08Z marcux_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-13T22:49:53Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:50:08Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-13T22:57:05Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-13T22:58:20Z osune quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T22:58:48Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T22:58:53Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T22:59:16Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:03:18Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T23:03:44Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:10:45Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:12:32Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:12:52Z wxie quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-13T23:15:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T23:17:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-13T23:17:49Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:20:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:25:30Z kuwze quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T23:26:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-13T23:28:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:28:47Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: Verhatenad!) 2017-10-13T23:29:05Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:32:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-13T23:33:17Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-13T23:35:38Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-13T23:36:46Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-13T23:46:49Z sjl: anyone successfully used Shinmera's deploy library to deploy an OS X app? 2017-10-13T23:50:55Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:00:58Z LAG_ quit 2017-10-14T00:01:13Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:01:57Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:04:01Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-10-14T00:05:20Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:06:08Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:07:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:08:07Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:11:43Z cgay quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:12:57Z cgay_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:16:24Z marvin2 quit (Quit: quit) 2017-10-14T00:21:15Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:21:53Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-14T00:22:03Z sjl: also, when ASDF encounters an error, is there a way to get a traceback? 2017-10-14T00:22:20Z sjl: none of these restarts look like they'll give me a stack trace so I can try to figure out what actually went wrong http://paste.stevelosh.com/59e158a6ee0a0000081b25a1 2017-10-14T00:24:57Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:25:37Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:26:44Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:30:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:32:44Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:36:10Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T00:39:44Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-14T00:40:42Z psilord joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:42:16Z psilord: Hello there, I have a small question: Common Lisp Recipies basically says not to use type-of since it is inconsistent between implementations. But, if I use it like this (typep instance-of-thing (type-of instance-of-thing)) will I always get the expected T from that test? 2017-10-14T00:42:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:43:51Z psilord: and, if I do (typep instance-1 (type-of instance-2)) I should get T or NILL that is correct on all implementations? 2017-10-14T00:44:05Z psilord: NIL, sorry for the typo. 2017-10-14T00:44:27Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:45:03Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-14T00:45:06Z psilord: The domain of the types themselves will be CLOS object type names defined with defclass. 2017-10-14T00:47:43Z Bike: if you're doing that just use class-of 2017-10-14T00:48:27Z psilord: Hrm, I believe that'll satisfy my needs. THank you! 2017-10-14T00:48:46Z Bike: no problem 2017-10-14T00:53:47Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-14T00:58:35Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T01:05:55Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T01:06:17Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-14T01:06:40Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T01:08:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-14T01:12:02Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-14T01:22:30Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-14T01:34:07Z ult: ~.knjdsoijf~. 2017-10-14T01:36:58Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-14T01:50:39Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-10-14T01:53:41Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T01:55:05Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-14T01:58:57Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T02:03:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T02:03:29Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:03:33Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:07:11Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:11:07Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:11:10Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-14T02:26:48Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T02:34:42Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-14T02:43:11Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T02:46:04Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:46:08Z onager joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:46:29Z psilord left #lisp 2017-10-14T02:48:30Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T02:51:01Z muhui joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:51:18Z muhui left #lisp 2017-10-14T02:51:22Z onager left #lisp 2017-10-14T02:51:41Z jealousmonk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T02:51:43Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:54:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-14T02:54:23Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-14T03:05:31Z kmem joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:08:39Z kmem quit (Quit: kmem) 2017-10-14T03:11:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:15:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:18:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:20:24Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:21:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T03:23:42Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-14T03:24:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T03:25:26Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:26:14Z crashtestdummy joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:30:20Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-14T03:46:37Z emaczen: sjl: what does it deploy for? 2017-10-14T03:47:02Z emaczen: err what is it deploying? SBCL or CCL? 2017-10-14T03:48:15Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T04:00:46Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-14T04:01:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:10:35Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T04:11:43Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T04:13:48Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:15:05Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-14T04:15:37Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-14T04:21:18Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:21:23Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-10-14T04:25:51Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-14T04:26:01Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T04:27:30Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-14T04:27:58Z exit70 joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:28:21Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:37:49Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:38:54Z iqubic: Let's say I have a function that takes an &rest parameter 2017-10-14T04:39:26Z iqubic: How do I tell the difference between no &rest being supplied and nil being supplied? 2017-10-14T04:39:43Z iqubic: Also, is it possible to do the same check with &optional params? 2017-10-14T04:41:05Z Bike: if you have (defun test (&rest r) r) then (test) => NIL, (test nil) => (NIL) 2017-10-14T04:41:28Z Bike: optional has a special syntax for giving you another variable with the information 2017-10-14T04:41:41Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T04:41:46Z emaczen: iqubic: for &optional and key you can supply a third argument like (param default supplied-p) and check supplied-p if it was supplied or not 2017-10-14T04:41:59Z Bike: (defun test2 (&optional (o nil o-p)) (values o o-p)), then (test2) => NIL, NIL while (test2 nil) => NIL, T 2017-10-14T04:42:56Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:43:02Z emaczen: can anyone point me to an example cffi grovel specification file? 2017-10-14T04:43:07Z SaganMan: bike, I have a doubt 2017-10-14T04:44:22Z SaganMan: when I do (setq f '+) what is f? is it function? 2017-10-14T04:45:01Z SaganMan: It works with apply like (apply f '(1 2)) but it doesn't work with (f 1 2) 2017-10-14T04:45:33Z Bike: lisp has multiple namespaces, and two of the more important ones are for variables versus for functions 2017-10-14T04:45:42Z emaczen: SaganMan: it is a symbol 2017-10-14T04:45:53Z Bike: when you write (setq f ...) or (apply f ...) f is set and looked up as a variable 2017-10-14T04:45:55Z SaganMan: ohhh 2017-10-14T04:46:06Z emaczen: SaganMan: You can get the function with (symbol-function f) 2017-10-14T04:46:08Z Bike: in (f 1 2) it's looked up as a function, which is a separate space, so i tdoesn't care about the setq 2017-10-14T04:46:33Z SaganMan: aha 2017-10-14T04:47:36Z SaganMan: thanks emaczen Bike 2017-10-14T04:49:56Z snits joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:51:54Z SaganMan: and also maan, there's so much to format than I thought 2017-10-14T04:53:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-14T04:59:29Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-14T05:10:30Z 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2017-10-14T06:09:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-14T06:11:13Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T06:12:09Z SaganMan: Morning beach 2017-10-14T06:12:54Z iqubic: Morning beach. 2017-10-14T06:13:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-14T06:19:31Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T06:22:36Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-14T06:24:53Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T06:26:15Z hearthemusic joined #lisp 2017-10-14T06:26:41Z hearthemusic left #lisp 2017-10-14T06:42:00Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-14T06:45:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-14T06:51:32Z brendyn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-14T06:56:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T06:57:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-14T06:57:42Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:03:19Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:05:53Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:22:18Z phoe_: Xach: should be fixed by now. 2017-10-14T07:32:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:34:07Z impaktor joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:36:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:37:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T07:38:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T07:40:45Z d4ryus2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-14T07:41:15Z phoe_: SaganMan: format is a whole God damn sublanguage in Common Lisp. 2017-10-14T07:41:23Z phoe_: Not Turing complete, but nonetheless complicated. 2017-10-14T07:42:22Z SaganMan: I'm still new to format, haven't exploited it to the fullest. 2017-10-14T07:42:44Z Shinmera: It is turing complete if you cound ~/ 2017-10-14T07:42:46Z Shinmera: *count 2017-10-14T07:43:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:43:51Z SaganMan: yeah, I already read that 2017-10-14T07:46:43Z phoe_: Shinmera: well, yes, ~/ can run arbitrary Lisp code. 2017-10-14T07:50:26Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-10-14T07:51:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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covered in clx afaik. should I revert that? 2017-10-14T15:25:38Z jackdaniel: or we could make xinerama and randr files loaded depending on a specific feature 2017-10-14T15:26:41Z jackdaniel: #-clx-randr(:file "xinerama") etc 2017-10-14T15:27:01Z jackdaniel: ill check backlog when fully online 2017-10-14T15:27:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T15:28:46Z jackdaniel: (I did minimal checs if it doesnt break clx, didnt investigate all clx clients, probably I should test more) 2017-10-14T15:29:55Z Xach: jackdaniel: the log above shows that it seems to be looking for a xinerama.asd 2017-10-14T15:30:51Z jackdaniel: according to https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/wiki/FAQ stump supports randr too 2017-10-14T15:31:18Z jackdaniel: Ill investigate when I have access to physical computer 2017-10-14T15:39:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-14T15:45:05Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T15:46:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-14T15:47:20Z SpikeMaster 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I can't seem to get the OS X app building working. 2017-10-14T16:47:51Z sjl: Shinmera: I can build a normal executable with :build-operation "deploy-op", and that runs as I expect 2017-10-14T16:48:27Z sjl: Shinmera: when I use "osx-app-deploy-op" and run the resulting binary from the command line, e.g. `./build/foo.app/Contents/MacOS/foo` this also runs as I expect 2017-10-14T16:48:53Z sjl: Shinmera: but when I actually try to open the .app, via double clicking or `open foo.app` from the command line, it silently hangs at 100% CPU until I force kill it 2017-10-14T16:54:07Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-14T16:56:16Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-14T16:56:37Z sjl: ugh, nevermind 2017-10-14T16:56:48Z sjl: thanks for the rubber ducking, #lisp 2017-10-14T16:59:26Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:01:08Z panji joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:02:40Z stnutt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T17:03:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:05:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T17:08:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:09:20Z Josh_2: What is rubber ducking? 2017-10-14T17:11:33Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-14T17:13:32Z d4ryus: Josh_2: i think sjl was refering to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging 2017-10-14T17:13:39Z scymtym: Josh_2: explaining a problem to somebody or to nobody at all (or to a rubber duck, hence the name) and gaining some insight just from stating the problem from the beginning 2017-10-14T17:13:46Z scymtym: oh well 2017-10-14T17:13:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-14T17:13:58Z sjl: yes 2017-10-14T17:15:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:18:25Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:21:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-14T17:21:48Z Josh_2: Well I'm glad to have been of assistance 2017-10-14T17:22:10Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-14T17:29:09Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-14T17:31:06Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:38:02Z S1ohy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T17:46:01Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2017-10-14T17:49:32Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-14T17:56:27Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-14T18:00:41Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-14T18:03:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T18:03:32Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-14T18:04:43Z Shinmera: sjl: I did test it and got it to work. What was the problem? 2017-10-14T18:04:48Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-14T18:04:57Z Shinmera: sjl: I generally don't release things that aren't tested for the features I advertise ;) 2017-10-14T18:07:56Z iqubic: slowlisp should be a thing 2017-10-14T18:08:55Z shka_: slow software 2017-10-14T18:09:00Z shka_: sloware! 2017-10-14T18:09:22Z jackdaniel: like slowfood? 2017-10-14T18:10:44Z shka_: yes 2017-10-14T18:12:00Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-14T18:12:08Z turkja quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-14T18:15:01Z jackdaniel: wolne oprogramowanie, wolne jak w slowfood, nie jak ślimak ;] 2017-10-14T18:20:56Z nast quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-14T18:21:18Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2017-10-14T18:22:21Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-14T18:23:17Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-14T18:23:27Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-14T18:28:56Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-10-14T18:29:18Z shka_: :-) 2017-10-14T18:29:28Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-14T18:30:15Z dim: hi 2017-10-14T18:30:33Z dim: did anyone setup something like https://www.appveyor.com/ for automatic build/test of CL apps on windows? 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2017-10-14T21:08:57Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-14T21:09:02Z Shinmera: sbcl doesn't bundle quicklisp 2017-10-14T21:09:03Z Bike: put it in .sbclrc? 2017-10-14T21:09:03Z drmeister: I've added a dependency of 'esrap+sbcl' to building clasp - now I have the headache of figuring out how to ensure that it is available. 2017-10-14T21:09:50Z Shinmera: download the quicklisp.lisp file, run quicklisp-quickstart:install with the directory set to something local to the build 2017-10-14T21:09:50Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:10:00Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:10:23Z jackdaniel: drmeister: if you depend on some particular libraries, just use (ql:bundle-systems '(esrap) :to "clasp/sbcl-build/libraries") 2017-10-14T21:10:26Z jackdaniel: and work with it 2017-10-14T21:10:48Z jackdaniel: and given sbcl is available load this bundle 2017-10-14T21:11:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-14T21:14:11Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-14T21:15:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-14T21:17:56Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Thank you - I'll try that. How do you load that system then? 2017-10-14T21:21:23Z drmeister: I guess load the "bundle.lisp" 2017-10-14T21:22:06Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:23:37Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:23:42Z drmeister: No - that doesn't appear to do it 2017-10-14T21:24:27Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-14T21:24:35Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T21:25:30Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:25:47Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-14T21:26:05Z drmeister: I see: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html 2017-10-14T21:27:24Z peterhil joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:28:11Z sellout joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:28:12Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:29:09Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-14T21:29:21Z peterhil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-14T21:30:44Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:31:08Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-14T21:32:07Z peterhil joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:32:49Z drewc joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:33:41Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-14T21:34:49Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-14T21:35:33Z drmeister: I added alexandria to the bundle as well - but I'm getting this when I try to use them. 2017-10-14T21:35:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/iEo1ywc7/ 2017-10-14T21:36:00Z drmeister: Has anyone seen this before? Unhandled SB-FASL::FASL-HEADER-MISSING in thread #MEH" out of (plump:parse "MEH") 2017-10-15T13:35:33Z shrdlu68: text gives me "MEH" while serializing gives me the whole input. 2017-10-15T13:36:34Z Shinmera: Then serialize the child array of the element you want to get the contents of, as I just said. 2017-10-15T13:36:43Z shrdlu68: I could simply concatenate the serialized children, though. 2017-10-15T13:36:45Z Shinmera: (plump:serialize (plump:children (plump:first-child (plump:parse "")))) 2017-10-15T13:37:21Z shrdlu68: Okay, thanks. 2017-10-15T13:37:48Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-10-15T13:39:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T13:44:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-15T13:47:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T13:48:29Z edu_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-15T13:49:33Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-15T13:54:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T13:56:35Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T14:01:53Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:04:04Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:04:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-15T14:04:51Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:05:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T14:05:50Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-15T14:11:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:14:24Z shka_: beach: not sure, i will try to setup it later, meanwhile i updated docs with a version of the overview that hopefully does not provoke heart attacks :-) 2017-10-15T14:19:42Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-15T14:21:20Z shka_: Grammarly is seriously nice. 2017-10-15T14:21:32Z shka_: I should have tried it earlier 2017-10-15T14:28:56Z beach: Good to know. 2017-10-15T14:29:56Z beach: So how do you use Grammarly? Do you just load your document into the browser? 2017-10-15T14:30:36Z dim: yeah 2017-10-15T14:30:40Z dim: unfortunately 2017-10-15T14:30:59Z dim: there's also an app, at least for macosx, but it has the same workflow 2017-10-15T14:31:22Z dim: they provide browser plugins that's useful when you input your text in textareas in browsers 2017-10-15T14:31:40Z dim: as it was a one-off process for me I didn't look into them providing an API of sorts 2017-10-15T14:32:42Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-15T14:35:31Z beach: shka_: So did it find all the singular nouns without articls? 2017-10-15T14:35:37Z beach: articles, even. 2017-10-15T14:37:57Z widp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T14:41:51Z shka_: beach: i hope so! 2017-10-15T14:42:01Z shka_: at the very least, it found some of it 2017-10-15T14:42:12Z beach: Great! 2017-10-15T14:43:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:46:41Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T14:49:16Z wigust quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-15T14:50:05Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2017-10-15T14:50:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:51:54Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:54:54Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-15T14:59:13Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-15T15:04:49Z tlaxkit quit (Quit: Me voy...) 2017-10-15T15:07:44Z paule32 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-15T15:08:03Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T15:13:48Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-15T15:15:45Z governor quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-15T15:16:33Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-15T15:17:19Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-15T15:18:12Z edu_ joined #lisp 2017-10-15T15:26:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-15T15:29:29Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-15T15:40:15Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-15T15:43:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-15T15:47:53Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-15T15:48:17Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-15T15:59:05Z shrdlu68: I have a function that, when called in the REPL, enters into a loop. Is it possible to redefine the function without interrupting it, in SLIME? 2017-10-15T15:59:27Z shrdlu68: I mean redefine it and then have the new definition take effect. 2017-10-15T16:00:04Z shrdlu68: I'm guessing I have to interrupt it and call it again. 2017-10-15T16:01:47Z marvin2: if you are looping by recursion, which isn't that common in CL, then I guess just redefining it would work, without interrupting it first. not sure if you'd gain much by that though 2017-10-15T16:02:58Z sondr3 quit (Quit: Quit) 2017-10-15T16:03:30Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-15T16:03:51Z shrdlu68: I guess what I'm looking for is some way to change the internal state of a running function, which I don't think is possible. 2017-10-15T16:05:02Z shrdlu68: If only I'd put the loop in a separate function. 2017-10-15T16:06:05Z azunyan joined #lisp 2017-10-15T16:08:07Z azunyan left #lisp 2017-10-15T16:12:18Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T16:19:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-15T16:30:06Z pjb: shrdlu68: you have to write the function specifically for it to be upgradable. First declare it notinline. The new version of the function is taken into account only when you call it again, and when you evaluate (function foo) again. So if your function is in a loop (or just running), it has to exit, and to be called again. It may also call itself recursively, if TCO has not been activated. (notinline should disable it). 2017-10-15T16:34:01Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T16:38:04Z pjb: shrdlu68: note: the recursive call can also be done in the debugger, to "manually" remplace the old function call with a new one. But for this you would also want to plan a catch to exit from the inner function call without returning to the debugger or outer function call. 2017-10-15T16:38:23Z pjb: Having such catches is routine in server code, but it may be less common in the REPL… 2017-10-15T16:39:01Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T16:40:33Z pjb: cf. petites-gazongues 2017-10-15T16:40:54Z pjb: http://gizmonaut.net/blog/software/multics_source_reveals_le_jetteur_des_gazongues.html 2017-10-15T16:40:57Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T16:49:03Z shrdlu68: pjb: I see, thanks 2017-10-15T16:49:05Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T16:51:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-15T16:56:52Z travv0 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T16:57:46Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:00:30Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:02:48Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T17:05:59Z travv0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-15T17:08:57Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T17:12:59Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-15T17:13:03Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:17:37Z bigdaddytank quit (Quit: Peace out!) 2017-10-15T17:21:12Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-15T17:21:26Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:24:39Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:29:00Z widp joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:29:37Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-15T17:31:27Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:42:14Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:43:17Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:45:26Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-15T17:46:53Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-15T17:52:34Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-15T17:53:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-15T17:57:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T18:00:52Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-15T18:00:57Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-15T18:01:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:01:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-15T18:01:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:02:41Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T18:05:12Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:05:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-15T18:05:52Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:06:19Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-15T18:07:18Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:07:43Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-15T18:08:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:08:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-15T18:08:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:10:52Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:11:51Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:11:57Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-15T18:12:27Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T18:14:07Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-15T18:14:10Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:14:26Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-15T18:15:33Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:16:06Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:16:55Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-15T18:17:43Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:17:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:20:50Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:21:50Z dim: is it possible to “shorten” an array, disposing of extra bytes? 2017-10-15T18:21:52Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:25:05Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T18:29:11Z shrdlu68: dim: #'adjust-array ? 2017-10-15T18:30:19Z shrdlu68: Or just #'subseq 2017-10-15T18:30:37Z phoe_: dim: not in place 2017-10-15T18:30:42Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:32:45Z shrdlu68: Displaced array could do it too, if a simple array is not a strict requirement. 2017-10-15T18:34:05Z jeremyheiler joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:36:08Z phoe_: depends on what "shortening" means 2017-10-15T18:36:22Z phoe_: a displaced array still points to the main array, and therefore the main one can't be GCed 2017-10-15T18:37:00Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-15T18:37:52Z shrdlu68: True. 2017-10-15T18:40:17Z _death: fill pointer another alternative 2017-10-15T18:49:43Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:51:01Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:55:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-15T18:55:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-15T18:55:55Z pjb: phoe_: adjustable arrays can be shortened in place! 2017-10-15T18:59:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-15T18:59:09Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:03:01Z impaktor joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:05:00Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-15T19:11:15Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:14:33Z ym joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:15:21Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-15T19:15:59Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-15T19:16:23Z Fade joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:16:44Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:17:20Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-15T19:18:23Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-15T19:20:19Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:20:39Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-15T19:23:03Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-15T19:25:59Z burtons is now known as kruhft 2017-10-15T19:32:17Z dim: actually I found a way to not have to do that 2017-10-15T19:32:44Z dim: I don't suppose using array of simple-arrays is more costly than directly simple-arrays 2017-10-15T19:33:19Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-15T19:34:36Z dim: I mean I'm not avoiding to flatten the array of arrays 2017-10-15T19:34:42Z dim: s/not/now/ 2017-10-15T19:39:02Z dim: the optimisations I'm trying are not that convincing yet :/ 2017-10-15T19:39:24Z dim: the consing looks like it's now properly contained 2017-10-15T19:39:29Z dim: the timing it's conclusive tho 2017-10-15T19:40:22Z dim: now using (write-sequence col cl-postgres::socket) rather than (loop :for byte :across col :do (write-byte byte cl-postgres::socket)) seems to make things worse? 2017-10-15T19:40:52Z widp quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-15T19:45:24Z dim: or maybe the metering reports are not that trustworthy 2017-10-15T19:48:18Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:48:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:53:11Z shka_: yo 2017-10-15T19:53:36Z shka_: so, this grammarly app is quite cool 2017-10-15T19:54:02Z shka_: and team has some rather nice creative ideas 2017-10-15T19:55:51Z ketralnis joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:56:20Z iqubic: grammarly is awesome. 2017-10-15T19:56:28Z iqubic: I have been using for about a year. 2017-10-15T19:56:43Z shka_: neat 2017-10-15T19:58:18Z iqubic: What I like is the ability to add words to my personal dictionary. 2017-10-15T19:58:51Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-15T19:59:12Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-15T19:59:39Z dim: an elisp client would be nice to have 2017-10-15T20:00:07Z iqubic: elisp client for what? 2017-10-15T20:00:24Z iqubic: also, just use emacs. 2017-10-15T20:01:23Z shka_: for grammarly 2017-10-15T20:01:24Z dim: I just use Emacs of course, and I'd like to be able to use Grammarly from my Markdown buffers 2017-10-15T20:01:30Z shka_: yes 2017-10-15T20:02:38Z iqubic: I don't think that's going to happen. 2017-10-15T20:02:51Z iqubic: Grammarly is a closed source program. 2017-10-15T20:03:01Z shka_: API 2017-10-15T20:03:14Z shka_: heard about that? :-) 2017-10-15T20:03:20Z iqubic: Yes. 2017-10-15T20:03:34Z iqubic: Is there a Grammarly API that we can call from lisp? 2017-10-15T20:04:08Z iqubic: Either via CFFI or purely in Lisp? 2017-10-15T20:04:59Z shka_: no idea at this point 2017-10-15T20:05:07Z shka_: but i would expect some HTTP 2017-10-15T20:05:17Z shka_: so it won't matter what we are going to use 2017-10-15T20:05:56Z iqubic: https://twitter.com/grammarly/status/388621218586578944?lang=en 2017-10-15T20:06:16Z iqubic: Wait, that's 4 years old 2017-10-15T20:07:28Z iqubic: Try this perhaps: https://github.com/grammarly 2017-10-15T20:13:05Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-15T20:21:11Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-15T20:21:41Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-15T20:26:53Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-15T20:29:41Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-15T20:43:43Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-15T20:45:07Z dieggsy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-15T20:45:39Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-15T20:45:42Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-15T20:55:59Z inaimathi joined #lisp 2017-10-15T20:56:10Z inaimathi: Psst, Xach 2017-10-15T20:56:16Z inaimathi: You around? 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I am on a linux box, the sbcl interpreter is pretty rough, is there any interpreter that is more user friendly, where i dont have to learn emacs? 2017-10-16T03:08:47Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T03:09:54Z io_elephant: clisp seems a little more user friendly 2017-10-16T03:22:05Z pillton: io_elephant: Have you tried this? http://www.cliki.net/rlwrap 2017-10-16T03:22:16Z pillton: Most people here use SLIME. 2017-10-16T03:23:04Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-16T03:23:11Z pillton: G'day beach. 2017-10-16T03:24:26Z Denommus quit (Quit: going to sleep) 2017-10-16T03:26:03Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-16T03:26:23Z beach: io_elephant: I agree with pillton, but I just would like to point out another important thing: SBCL usually compiles the code after each interaction, so it is not an interpreter. 2017-10-16T03:26:56Z beach: io_elephant: The distinction is important because when people hear "interpreter", they immediately think "slow", and that is definitely not the case with SBCL. 2017-10-16T03:27:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T03:31:04Z io_elephant: pillton: yes, but i have never used emacs before so i dont want to try to learn 2 things at once 2017-10-16T03:32:35Z beach: io_elephant: So what would you do if the only thing available were some IDE? You would have to learn both the language and the IDE, no? Emacs+SLIME make up the most commonly used IDE for Common Lisp. You have good documentation available, so that is not a problem. 2017-10-16T03:32:53Z beach: io_elephant: What is your reason for learning Common Lisp in the first place? 2017-10-16T03:33:21Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-16T03:34:17Z turkja quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-16T03:34:46Z pillton: io_elephant: It only takes an hour or so to go through the Emacs tutorial. Pressing C-h t (which is Control + h then t) will start the tutorial. 2017-10-16T03:37:07Z beach: io_elephant: See it as an investment. I have benefited for 35 years from Emacs. Given the total time I have spent on learning it, that's a very good investment. 2017-10-16T03:38:16Z pillton: io_elephant: Most people use SLIME because it makes them more productive. Common lisp does not require a write, compile, link and run workflow. This provides opportunities for tools which can interact with your program as you write it. 2017-10-16T03:40:46Z io_elephant: beach: as an introduction to funcational projgramming 2017-10-16T03:41:06Z beach: io_elephant: Then you are in the wrong channel. Common Lisp is not considered a functional programming language. 2017-10-16T03:41:29Z io_elephant: really? 2017-10-16T03:41:41Z beach: io_elephant: Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm programming language. In particular, modern Common Lisp code uses object-oriented programming a lot. 2017-10-16T03:42:10Z io_elephant: Is that true for all variations of the lisp family? 2017-10-16T03:42:25Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T03:42:44Z beach: io_elephant: One of the supported paradigms is functional programming, but the language is not particularly outstanding for that. At least not more than other, more specialized, functional languages. 2017-10-16T03:43:32Z travv0 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T03:43:36Z beach: io_elephant: This channel is about Common Lisp. The "Lisp family" or "Lisp" are not terms that have widely agreed-upon definitions. Common Lisp, on the other hand, has a standard, so it is precisely defined. 2017-10-16T03:43:47Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-16T03:45:13Z beach: io_elephant: In other words, some people (especially those that have created a new language) might consider it a member of the family, or to be "a Lisp", but others might disagree. 2017-10-16T03:47:02Z io_elephant: beach: thanks for your help. Can i ask, what is the biggest reason why Common Lisp is not particularly outstanding for functional programming? Just curious 2017-10-16T03:48:23Z beach: io_elephant: People who are into functional programming as a paradigm, usually favor languages that do not allow side effects, because side effects are not allowed in that style of programming. Common Lisp has plenty of operators with side effects in them. 2017-10-16T03:52:44Z io_elephant: beach: ah ok :) actually the book i am reading about started talking about how some lisp "functions" get passed in pointers to the items in a collection. Thinking that common lisp was functional i kind of started scratching my head 2017-10-16T03:53:10Z pillton: What book are you reading? 2017-10-16T03:53:41Z beach: io_elephant: The fact that a language has pointers to functions does not make it a "functional language". 2017-10-16T03:53:52Z io_elephant: COMMON LISP: 2017-10-16T03:53:52Z io_elephant: A Gentle Introduction 2017-10-16T03:53:56Z io_elephant: to Symbolic Computation 2017-10-16T03:57:52Z io_elephant: beach: yeah i know that, thats why i got confused a little when that book started talking about passing pointers to functions. 2017-10-16T03:58:34Z beach: io_elephant: Why did that make you confused? 2017-10-16T03:58:50Z beach: I mean, C has pointers to functions as well. And C is definitely not considered a functional language. 2017-10-16T03:59:38Z Fade joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:00:27Z beach: io_elephant: I don't want to discourage you from learning Common Lisp of course. Quite the contrary. I just want you to know that modern Common Lisp code is not often written in the functional style. 2017-10-16T04:00:39Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-16T04:00:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:01:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:01:48Z io_elephant: beach: It made me confused because that means the function could modify data that is outside its scope (in other words, it could have side-effects as you mentioned) 2017-10-16T04:03:13Z beach: io_elephant: Whether you have a pointer to a function or not is orthogonal to whether the function has side effects or not. 2017-10-16T04:06:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T04:06:57Z beach: io_elephant: Don't be confused about the "pointer to" thing. Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics", i.e. the semantics of the language are defined in such a way as to give the illusion that every object is accessed through a reference to it (i.e. a pointer). 2017-10-16T04:07:01Z beach: ... including functions. 2017-10-16T04:10:00Z beach: io_elephant: In other words, no object is every implicitly copied in Common Lisp. When you access an object in a list, array, or in some other class instance, you only get a copy of the reference (pointer) to it. 2017-10-16T04:10:26Z shdeng quit (Excess Flood) 2017-10-16T04:10:53Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:11:34Z io_elephant: beach: but when adding another item to a list, is the output different list object then the input source list? 2017-10-16T04:12:36Z loke: io_elephant: There isn't a "list object" per se. 2017-10-16T04:12:41Z beach: io_elephant: In Common Lisp, it depends on the way you do it, but you can never rely on it being the same object, so the safest thing is to assume that it is a new object, but account for the possibility that it isn't. 2017-10-16T04:13:36Z beach: io_elephant: Also, what loke says. The basic abstraction in Common Lisp is not "list" but "CONS cell". A list is just a sequence of CONS cells. 2017-10-16T04:14:18Z beach: io_elephant: In a (purely) functional language, it would always be a new list, since no side effects are allowed. Things are more complicated in Common Lisp since they are allowed. 2017-10-16T04:14:22Z io_elephant: beach: yeah i was reading about that, its just a pointer to value and pointer to next cell. by "list" i think i mean the collection of the CONS cells 2017-10-16T04:14:54Z beach: A "sequence", not a "collection" (which implies that order is not important). 2017-10-16T04:15:17Z loke: io_elephant: right. So your "list" is simply a cons cell that happens to be interpreted as the first cell in a chain of cons cells. 2017-10-16T04:16:02Z beach: A "chain" is fine, too. 2017-10-16T04:16:52Z io_elephant: ok thanks for your help guys 2017-10-16T04:17:07Z beach: Anytime. 2017-10-16T04:17:18Z loke implemented a set of functions for processing inverted lists (chained by the CAR instead of CDR) once. That was fun, and useless. 2017-10-16T04:17:39Z io_elephant left #lisp 2017-10-16T04:18:36Z beach: It does sound like fun. 2017-10-16T04:19:03Z loke: beach: I had nth, rlength, rdolist, etc... 2017-10-16T04:19:16Z loke: Very pointless. :-) 2017-10-16T04:19:22Z loke: rnth 2017-10-16T04:19:29Z beach: But fun, as you said. 2017-10-16T04:20:08Z loke: It could have been fun, if I had bothered to implement a pretty-printer for it. As it turned out, anything over 4 elements or so turned out to be wholly unreadable. 2017-10-16T04:20:14Z loke: Then I decided to stop :-) 2017-10-16T04:20:41Z beach: Heh, I can see why. 2017-10-16T04:21:07Z loke: That said, it's a good exercise to learn what coses are, and to emphasise the fact that lists are nothing but convention. 2017-10-16T04:21:49Z beach: Maybe. But I think that in order to do that in Common Lisp, you would already have to know a lot about CONS cells. 2017-10-16T04:22:00Z beach: I mean, I implemented it in Pascal the first time around. 2017-10-16T04:22:11Z loke: beach: hmm... you have a point 2017-10-16T04:23:04Z loke: I implemented a lisp-thing in Java back in... hmm... it was when I just joined Sun, so it must have been 1997. 2017-10-16T04:23:38Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-16T04:23:47Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-16T04:23:49Z loke: You know, classes for Cons, etc... I guess that's how ABCL started 2017-10-16T04:24:17Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:24:35Z loke: There was a scheme implementation in Java back then that did something similar. It was called Kawa. I wonder if it's still around. 2017-10-16T04:24:52Z loke: Oh, it is! 2017-10-16T04:24:53Z loke: https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/ 2017-10-16T04:24:57Z beach: I remember that one. 2017-10-16T04:25:42Z loke: I wasnted to do a CL, but of cource my project never went anywwhere. I'm glad ABCL exists now. 2017-10-16T04:39:29Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T04:41:35Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-16T04:43:23Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T04:44:17Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T04:48:29Z aeth: If I want to have a cffi foreign "array of arrays", do I just do this? (cffi:foreign-alloc :float :count (* inner-array-size number-of-items)) and then (cffi:make-pointer (+ (* inner-array-size (cffi:foreign-type-size :float) index) (cffi:pointer-address start-of-array-of-arrays))) 2017-10-16T04:49:12Z aeth: i.e. storing a bunch of foreign arrays in one block of memory 2017-10-16T04:50:57Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:56:43Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:58:07Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-16T04:58:35Z thebardian left #lisp 2017-10-16T05:10:27Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:23:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:29:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:34:06Z anop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T05:34:25Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T05:34:50Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:36:17Z pona1235 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:41:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:43:32Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:44:58Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-16T05:47:27Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T05:47:57Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-16T05:48:33Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:49:53Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T05:49:53Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-16T05:52:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:02:04Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:04:48Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:06:07Z impaktor: https://tpapp.github.io/post/common-lisp-to-julia/ 2017-10-16T06:06:27Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T06:08:52Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:11:25Z pillton: I have been implementing https://github.com/markcox80/template-function and https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store to help with this problem. 2017-10-16T06:12:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T06:19:21Z impaktor: pillton: you mean dispatch on function parameter type? 2017-10-16T06:20:24Z pillton: Yes. 2017-10-16T06:20:33Z shka_: how? 2017-10-16T06:21:13Z pillton: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-1:-An-Introduction 2017-10-16T06:21:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:16Z shka_: hmmm 2017-10-16T06:24:17Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:17Z mbrock quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:18Z shka_: ok 2017-10-16T06:24:20Z shka_: still 2017-10-16T06:24:27Z adulteratedjedi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:27Z trig-ger quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:27Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:27Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:27Z aaronjensen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:27Z d4gg4d_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:27Z devlaf quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:38Z angular_mike___ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:41Z shka_: it should have been integrated into GFs from the start 2017-10-16T06:24:47Z pillton: Not it shouldn't have. 2017-10-16T06:24:58Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:24:59Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:25:08Z pillton: The example at the end highlights the issues you face when using types rather than classes. 2017-10-16T06:25:20Z rann quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:25:21Z joeygibson quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:25:34Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:25:41Z asedeno quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:25:44Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-16T06:26:24Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:27Z d4gg4d_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:34Z devlaf joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:35Z danlentz joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:39Z adulteratedjedi joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:39Z asedeno joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:40Z joeygibson joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:42Z aaronjensen joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:47Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:26:50Z rann joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:50Z pillton: It is possible I need to read a bit more on the subject though. 2017-10-16T06:26:50Z Ellenor: Did irc cloud just die 2017-10-16T06:26:52Z l1x joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:56Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:26:57Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 269 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:26:57Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 269 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:26:58Z nikivi quit (Ping timeout: 269 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:26:59Z mbrock joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:27:11Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:27:21Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:27:28Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:27:57Z malm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T06:28:06Z angular_mike___ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T06:28:27Z shka_: pillton: well, if i want to dispatch on both type and class, i guess i can first dispatch on type, then on class… 2017-10-16T06:28:32Z sigjuice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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2017-10-16T07:06:04Z widp joined #lisp 2017-10-16T07:16:49Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-16T07:20:41Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T07:21:37Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-16T07:28:23Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T07:32:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-16T07:39:37Z dim: hi 2017-10-16T07:39:50Z beach: Hello dim. 2017-10-16T07:40:11Z dim: the morning-tz crew ;-) 2017-10-16T07:40:25Z dim: (soon to be the noon-tz, etc, anyway) 2017-10-16T07:44:51Z dim: optimizing is hard. 2017-10-16T07:44:58Z beach: Indeed. 2017-10-16T07:46:36Z dim: I had something interesting but not there yet yesterday, didn't commit, continued pushing instead, and then everything broke 2017-10-16T07:46:47Z dim: I have no clue as to why and how to get back to the interesting state 2017-10-16T07:47:03Z dim: too bad, I think I just wasted the whole effort 2017-10-16T07:47:13Z beach: Ouch! 2017-10-16T07:50:05Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T07:50:52Z dim: removing some aggressive optimize declarations seems to get things back to working 2017-10-16T07:51:09Z dim: I'm not sure to trust anything now tho 2017-10-16T07:51:47Z dim: ok, without profiling it works, with profiling, The value -44576016 is not of type UNSIGNED-BYTE 2017-10-16T07:52:15Z beach: What is the value of your SAFETY quality? 2017-10-16T07:52:23Z dim: didn't change that 2017-10-16T07:52:34Z dim: I tried 0 at some points, but got back to default 2017-10-16T07:52:51Z dim: (restarted the lisp image in between) 2017-10-16T07:53:01Z beach: I would set it to 3 explicitly if I were you. 2017-10-16T07:53:10Z beach: At least until you know that the code works. 2017-10-16T07:53:20Z hajovonta: hello everybody 2017-10-16T07:53:30Z beach: Hello hajovonta. 2017-10-16T07:55:04Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T07:55:11Z dim: same error with explicit safety 2017-10-16T07:55:16Z dim: (declare (optimize speed safety)) 2017-10-16T07:55:50Z dim: well anyway, it was supposed to be a week-end's past time 2017-10-16T07:56:00Z dim: I need to switch to other things… 2017-10-16T07:56:38Z beach: "pastime"? 2017-10-16T07:57:15Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T07:57:43Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T07:57:50Z dim: yes, thanks 2017-10-16T08:00:14Z brucem quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2017-10-16T08:02:48Z iarenaza joined #lisp 2017-10-16T08:03:40Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-16T08:08:38Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-16T08:11:21Z iarenaza quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-10-16T08:13:42Z jdz: dim: if you're using SBCL I'd suggest using sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy instead of PROCLAIM/DECLAIM/DECLARE (if you're using libraries, that is). 2017-10-16T08:14:18Z jdz: Some libraries are broken, and still declare (SAFETY 0) (for instance cl-base64). 2017-10-16T08:16:57Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-16T08:17:27Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-16T08:19:17Z widp quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-16T08:21:14Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host 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Unless you have been using a different nick, I haven't seen you for the past 3.5 years. 2017-10-16T09:18:52Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-16T09:21:05Z mayuresh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T09:23:38Z beach hopes he didn't scare away mayuresh. 2017-10-16T09:24:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-16T09:29:35Z shka: beach: you remember EVERYTHING/ 2017-10-16T09:30:03Z beach: shka: No. I know how to use `grep'. 2017-10-16T09:30:22Z jdz: Oh noes, beach has been replaced by a Perl script! 2017-10-16T09:30:35Z beach: Large parts, yes. 2017-10-16T09:30:41Z beach: Sorry to disappoint you. 2017-10-16T09:30:53Z phoe_: xD 2017-10-16T09:31:14Z phoe_: jdz: I am laughing, you can be proud of yourself 2017-10-16T09:31:17Z dim: what about using cl-ppcre rather than grep? ;-) 2017-10-16T09:31:23Z shka: haha 2017-10-16T09:31:35Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T09:31:38Z jdz: I recently read http://www.skyhunter.com/marcs/GentleSeduction.html. 2017-10-16T09:32:07Z shka: He was human once, but now he is so much more; yet less. 2017-10-16T09:32:18Z jdz: Even if this is not the case, some people get scared with "perfect memory". 2017-10-16T09:32:26Z jdz: Google glass and such. 2017-10-16T09:32:35Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T09:33:30Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-16T09:34:11Z edu_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T09:35:42Z jdz: What I'm trying to say is that I think everybody would want better memory, but given the technology to augment them (read "cyborgs") everybody would freak out. 2017-10-16T09:35:46Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T09:37:03Z shka: jdz: not me! 2017-10-16T09:37:32Z Shinmera: transplant my brain into an android body any day of the week in my opinion 2017-10-16T09:37:34Z shka: being superhuman is just tempting 2017-10-16T09:37:36Z jdz: It's a very hard line to draw between "natural" and "artificial", and I myself am convinced that there is no such line, of if it is then it is very wide and fuzzy. 2017-10-16T09:37:47Z jdz: I also would welcome our robot overlords. 2017-10-16T09:38:07Z shka: ^5 Shinmera 2017-10-16T09:39:50Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-16T09:39:54Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2017-10-16T09:39:54Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-16T09:40:18Z shka: also, i don't think anybody would reject actual immortality 2017-10-16T09:40:39Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-16T09:41:03Z jdz: I also don't think it is a good idea to have actual immortality at the current human evolution level. 2017-10-16T09:41:12Z Shinmera: If I had to choose between being instantly killed painlessly and living forever I'd easily without question choose the former. 2017-10-16T09:41:51Z jdz: Shinmera: why instantly? Can't it be a drug that puts you into sleep and you never wake up? 2017-10-16T09:42:21Z Shinmera: jdz: Because the brain does funny things when it realises it's about to die. 2017-10-16T09:42:29Z jdz: I bet it's possible to numb one's senses down so much that "painlessly" would hold no matter the way one dies. 2017-10-16T09:42:51Z jdz: Oh yes, human brain. 2017-10-16T09:43:26Z jdz: Is it our friend, or our enemy? 2017-10-16T09:43:33Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T09:43:36Z jdz: (A rhetorical question.) 2017-10-16T09:47:03Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T09:51:23Z travv0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T09:54:30Z p_l: Shinmera: close to ground zero of a nuke? vaporization is pretty much instant, iirc 2017-10-16T09:57:07Z lieven: kind of a wasteful way to kill one individual 2017-10-16T09:57:59Z hajovonta: jdz: probably it is what it is 2017-10-16T09:58:10Z hajovonta: a tool can be a friend and an enemy in certain circumstances 2017-10-16T10:07:06Z shka: well, at the very least you are going out on blaze of glory 2017-10-16T10:17:03Z osune joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:17:25Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:22:20Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:24:56Z kirito` joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:25:14Z kirito` left #lisp 2017-10-16T10:25:21Z kirito` joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:25:39Z kirito` left #lisp 2017-10-16T10:42:27Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:44:47Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:46:01Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T10:49:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:52:52Z kirito` joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:53:04Z kirito` left #lisp 2017-10-16T10:55:40Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T10:55:40Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T10:56:21Z kirito` joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:00:49Z kirito` left #lisp 2017-10-16T11:00:53Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T11:01:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T11:04:16Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:06:09Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T11:10:05Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T11:18:52Z pona1235 left #lisp 2017-10-16T11:22:25Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:25:44Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:28:48Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:45:51Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:50:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:55:10Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T11:59:04Z d4ryus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-16T12:03:13Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T12:04:49Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T12:05:33Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:09:21Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T12:09:41Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T12:12:01Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:12:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:13:03Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:14:29Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:19:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:19:55Z Ven is now known as Guest23284 2017-10-16T12:20:58Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:21:15Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:21:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:22:28Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:24:10Z edu_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-16T12:26:07Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:28:09Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:28:45Z cioran89 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-16T12:30:13Z TDT joined #lisp 2017-10-16T12:32:04Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-16T13:07:48Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:08:23Z midre joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:25:14Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:29:50Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:31:33Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T13:32:23Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:35:19Z wxie quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-16T13:36:15Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:38:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:39:03Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-16T13:40:16Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:44:44Z Josh_2: Why does (apply #'mapcar ..) only worked with a nested list like '((1 2 3))? 2017-10-16T13:45:31Z Josh_2: work* 2017-10-16T13:45:31Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T13:45:47Z pjb: Josh_2: wrong guestion. 2017-10-16T13:45:50Z Josh_2: O 2017-10-16T13:46:05Z Josh_2: I think I get it, apply is pulling out the first value from the nested list and then passing it mapcar? 2017-10-16T13:46:19Z Josh_2: <- doesn't know how to English today. 2017-10-16T13:46:23Z pjb: No, it doesn't pull anything. 2017-10-16T13:46:35Z pjb: Now for the specifics, you should expand .. 2017-10-16T13:47:21Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-16T13:48:15Z marvin2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-16T13:48:15Z kruhft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-16T13:48:26Z pjb: (apply (function mapcar) '(+ (1 2 3) (300 200 100))) #| --> (301 202 103) |# 2017-10-16T13:48:39Z pjb: (apply (function mapcar) '(1+ (1 2 3))) #| --> (2 3 4) |# 2017-10-16T13:48:40Z searcher2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T13:48:50Z pjb: so you see, it works also on nested lists with different shapes. 2017-10-16T13:50:02Z Josh_2: Well now I don't understand 2017-10-16T13:50:18Z Josh_2: Has someone got a version of (apply..) that I can read? 2017-10-16T13:50:42Z spacepluk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-16T13:51:44Z d4ryus: (apply '+ '(1 2 3 4 5)) ~> (+ 1 2 3 4 5) 2017-10-16T13:52:09Z d4ryus: s/'+/#'+/ 2017-10-16T13:52:40Z antoszka: '+ should work as a function designator, too. 2017-10-16T13:53:11Z spacepluk joined #lisp 2017-10-16T13:53:28Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-16T13:53:33Z phoe_: ^ 2017-10-16T13:54:01Z phoe_: apply works a little bit differently 2017-10-16T13:54:03Z pjb: Josh_2: type M-. on apply 2017-10-16T13:54:09Z pjb: this should show you the source of apply. 2017-10-16T13:54:16Z phoe_: (apply #'+ 1 2 3 '(4 5)) 2017-10-16T13:54:19Z pjb: But since apply is a primitive, it may look strange. 2017-10-16T13:54:24Z phoe_: this is equivalent to (+ 1 2 3 4 5) 2017-10-16T13:54:36Z pjb: Josh_2: why don't you just read the clhs apply? 2017-10-16T13:54:56Z phoe_: and actually, (apply #'+ 1 2 3 4 5 '()) == (funcall #'+ 1 2 3 4 5) 2017-10-16T13:55:31Z Josh_2: I did read the clhs 2017-10-16T13:56:19Z pjb: So what didn't you understand? 2017-10-16T13:56:48Z pjb: Notice that you can implement funcall with apply, but you cannot implement apply with funcall (in CL). 2017-10-16T13:57:02Z pjb: (defun funcall (f &rest args) (apply f args)) 2017-10-16T13:59:22Z phoe_: pjb: d'oh 2017-10-16T13:59:23Z phoe_: (defun apply (function &rest args) (eval `(funcall function ,@args))) 2017-10-16T13:59:30Z rumbler31: xach: you lurking? 2017-10-16T13:59:56Z pjb: phoe_: there are a lot of problems here with eval… 2017-10-16T14:00:23Z phoe_: pjb: I know that anyone writing this code in real application should burn in hell. 2017-10-16T14:00:25Z pjb: phoe_: first, you'd have to quote the arguments. 2017-10-16T14:00:40Z pjb: (defun apply (function &rest args) (eval `(funcall ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) `(quote ,x)) (cons function args))))) 2017-10-16T14:00:51Z XachX: rumbler31: yes 2017-10-16T14:01:07Z phoe_: XachX: has ASD-GENERATOR started building correctly? 2017-10-16T14:01:12Z pjb: phoe_: but then, funcall being implemented by calling apply, you've got a recursive call to apply. 2017-10-16T14:01:22Z XachX: phoe_: yes 2017-10-16T14:01:46Z pjb: phoe_: and eval itself is implemented using apply (eg. to call funcall). 2017-10-16T14:01:57Z Xof joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:03:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:03:27Z rumbler31: XachX: I started an update-dist, and got past the point where ql had selected all of the updated packages to start installing, in the middle of installing new packages my machine blue screened. I'm pretty sure that now when ql says that everything is up to date that its wrong. Is there 1) an easy way to see if its really up to date or 2) rollback and redo an update that stopped part way through? 2017-10-16T14:03:47Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:04:04Z Shinmera: rumbler31: It'll download packages as needed if they're not up to date yet. 2017-10-16T14:04:26Z XachX: rumbler31: only the metadata must be updated. The rest is fetched on demand. Previously installed stuff is updated as a convenience. 2017-10-16T14:04:43Z searcher2 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:05:08Z rumbler31: oh I see 2017-10-16T14:06:07Z rumbler31: thank you 2017-10-16T14:06:40Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:08:36Z Shinmera: XachX: related to that, though: what does Quicklisp do to ensure consistency if something happens during the extraction of a system? 2017-10-16T14:09:50Z Shinmera: Does it keep a journal of sorts to deal with that? 2017-10-16T14:11:37Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:15:55Z Xach: Shinmera: for extraction, no. an interrupted extraction would require some manual intervention, I think. 2017-10-16T14:16:41Z Shinmera: Using an atomic journal to keep track of which systems were actually completely installed would help with that, then. 2017-10-16T14:18:53Z rumbler31: so its possible I have a half extracted package on disk, with an up to date name? 2017-10-16T14:19:12Z hajovonta: I had a strange experience yesterday. After getting used to use Quicklisp for years, I had to use python pip. 2017-10-16T14:19:18Z hajovonta: on Windows. :-) 2017-10-16T14:19:38Z Xach: rumbler31: yes, it is possible. 2017-10-16T14:19:50Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:19:54Z Xach: rumbler31: well, let me double-check. i do a lot of things with temp files and rename, so maybe i do that too. 2017-10-16T14:21:35Z Xach: No, quicklisp simply extracts to the target immediately in that case. 2017-10-16T14:21:40Z beach: Josh_2: Did you figure out how APPLY works? 2017-10-16T14:22:09Z rumbler31: Xach: thanks for checking 2017-10-16T14:22:22Z Shinmera: Xach: I don't think renaming is guaranteed atomic on all platforms in any case. At least, I'm pretty sure it isn't on Windows. 2017-10-16T14:22:55Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:23:51Z Xach: Update downloads are interrupted frequently enough that I need to make it a FAQ. I don't think anyone has asked about an interrupted unpack yet. 2017-10-16T14:24:36Z Shinmera: Well, maybe they didn't notice or just reinstalled completely. 2017-10-16T14:25:17Z Shinmera: Unfortunately most things go by unreported. 2017-10-16T14:25:19Z Xach: Yes, there are many possibilities. But people have noticed (and asked about) one case often and the other never. 2017-10-16T14:25:43Z rumbler31: tbh I don't remember what state it was in when it crashed 2017-10-16T14:26:35Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:26:38Z rumbler31: it had passed the state where it had updated the meta info and begun downloading packages. I just assumed they were downloaded and unpacked individually instead of all at once 2017-10-16T14:27:04Z Xach: Maybe they've asked about the symptoms, which would be missing source files. (There's a check for missing .asd files) 2017-10-16T14:27:19Z Shinmera: since network IO is the bottleneck it's most likely that it crashed during a download, rather than an unpack. 2017-10-16T14:27:50Z Xach: the window is much smaller 2017-10-16T14:27:56Z Josh_2: beach: Sure did 2017-10-16T14:28:10Z beach: Great! Just checking. 2017-10-16T14:28:16Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:28:31Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:29:10Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T14:30:40Z impaktor left #lisp 2017-10-16T14:31:01Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:31:43Z Josh_2: Thanks, I appreciate that. 2017-10-16T14:32:26Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:33:08Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:36:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:36:50Z osune quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:37:43Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:38:26Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:39:04Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:39:57Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:43:07Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:45:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:45:48Z Ven is now known as Guest84089 2017-10-16T14:48:23Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:49:05Z Trasformatore joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:49:08Z Trasformatore: hi 2017-10-16T14:49:17Z beach: Hello Trasformatore. 2017-10-16T14:49:26Z Trasformatore: please I have a problem with gsll on sbcl on freebsd 11 2017-10-16T14:49:36Z Trasformatore: beach, Hi I'm Posterdati 2017-10-16T14:49:40Z Trasformatore: beach :) 2017-10-16T14:49:47Z beach: Got it. 2017-10-16T14:49:57Z Trasformatore: sbcl cannot compile gsll on freebsd 2017-10-16T14:50:19Z Trasformatore: missing -I/usr/local/include 2017-10-16T14:50:22Z foom joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:50:47Z papachan: Trasformatore and from pkg there is no sbcl? 2017-10-16T14:50:49Z Trasformatore: I'm trying to figure out on gsll source code, but no indication about -I 2017-10-16T14:51:04Z Trasformatore: papachan, I compiled from git version 2017-10-16T14:51:13Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-16T14:51:20Z Trasformatore: fatal error: 2017-10-16T14:51:20Z Trasformatore: 'gsl/gsl_integration.h' file not found 2017-10-16T14:51:20Z Trasformatore: #include 2017-10-16T14:51:30Z jdz: I'd say you're missing the header files. Have you checked they're there? 2017-10-16T14:51:31Z LiamH: Do you have the GSL library installed? 2017-10-16T14:51:38Z Trasformatore: jdz, they are 2017-10-16T14:51:44Z Trasformatore: LiamH, yes 2017-10-16T14:51:57Z jdz: Trasformatore: in /usr/include or /usr/local/include? 2017-10-16T14:51:58Z LiamH: Sounds like a path problem then. 2017-10-16T14:52:14Z Trasformatore: /usr/local/include/gsl/gsl_xxxxx.h 2017-10-16T14:52:48Z Trasformatore: I found in gsll this: default-toolchain-parameters () 2017-10-16T14:52:52Z jdz: So gsll is trying to find the headers in /usr/local/include? 2017-10-16T14:52:53Z LiamH: There are ways to specify to CFFI where to search, but I'm not sure what the current best practice is. 2017-10-16T14:53:00Z Trasformatore: #+freebsd (list "-I" "/usr/local/include/") 2017-10-16T14:53:17Z LiamH: Just to be clear, this is not in the realm of GSLL, it is CFFI that is looking for those files. 2017-10-16T14:53:57Z jdz: Trasformatore: is :freebsd on *features*? 2017-10-16T14:56:19Z dec0n_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-16T14:57:26Z Trasformatore: LiamH, sure, but gsll is setting *cc* correctly specifing (list "-I" "/usr/local/include/") 2017-10-16T14:57:32Z Trasformatore: jdz, let me check 2017-10-16T14:58:07Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:58:38Z Trasformatore: jdz, (find :freebsd *features*) 2017-10-16T14:58:38Z jdz: Trasformatore: when you say "gsll is setting *cc* correctly", have you checked the variable at runtime or just what you see in the source? 2017-10-16T14:58:38Z Trasformatore: :FREEBSD 2017-10-16T14:58:55Z LiamH: Transformatore: Yes, that flag should be passed to the cc (which you should be able to see when you try to compile). 2017-10-16T14:58:56Z Trasformatore: jdz, source only 2017-10-16T14:58:57Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-16T14:59:12Z jdz: You should use the debugger to investigate the problem. 2017-10-16T14:59:20Z Trasformatore: LiamH, seems that cffi ignore -I/usr/local/include/ 2017-10-16T14:59:42Z LiamH: Transformatore: is it showing up in the cc line? 2017-10-16T15:00:17Z Trasformatore: LiamH, no 2017-10-16T15:00:32Z Trasformatore: (ql:quickload :gsll) 2017-10-16T15:00:40Z Trasformatore: [Condition of type CFFI-GROVEL:GROVEL-ERROR] 2017-10-16T15:01:06Z Trasformatore: I've got only this --> "-I/usr/local/share/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cffi_0.19.0/" 2017-10-16T15:01:15Z Trasformatore: missing -I/usr/local/include 2017-10-16T15:02:07Z LiamH: Transformatore: Compiling from quicklisp or git?? (10:51:04 AM) Trasformatore: papachan, I compiled from git version 2017-10-16T15:03:03Z Trasformatore: LiamH, quicklisp 2017-10-16T15:03:14Z Trasformatore: LiamH, quicklisp + slime + sbcl (latest git) 2017-10-16T15:03:22Z LiamH: OK 2017-10-16T15:03:40Z Trasformatore: LiamH, on linux all ok 2017-10-16T15:04:30Z LiamH: Transformatore: Sounds like a CFFI - FreeBSD problem, maybe post on the CFFI list? 2017-10-16T15:04:31Z Trasformatore: so is something related to cff and freebsd 2017-10-16T15:04:34Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:05:14Z LiamH: Yes. 2017-10-16T15:06:09Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T15:06:15Z Trasformatore: :( 2017-10-16T15:06:40Z Josh_2: Am I right in saying these two functions do the same thing? http://paste.lisp.org/display/358830 The first one is from On Lisp chapter 4 figure 4.7 and I just changed it in the second to remove the (apply ..) I'm not sure why (apply.. ) is being used so liberally when it doesn't appear (to me) to be adding any extra functionality 2017-10-16T15:07:44Z pjb: Josh_2: no they don't. 2017-10-16T15:07:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-16T15:08:14Z pjb: Josh_2: compare: (let ((args '(1 2 3))) (values (apply #'list args) (list args))) #| --> (1 2 3) ; ((1 2 3)) |# 2017-10-16T15:09:07Z pjb: Josh_2: to do the same, you'd have to use funcall or add an empty list of final arguments to apply: (let ((args '(1 2 3))) (values (apply #'list args '()) (list args))) #| --> (#1=(1 2 3)) ; (#1#) |# 2017-10-16T15:09:15Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:09:16Z beach: Josh_2: If the first APPLY had been FUNCALL instead, you would have been right. 2017-10-16T15:09:31Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:11:11Z pjb: Josh_2: but the most frightnening in your question is that you're totally oblivious to the types! 2017-10-16T15:12:08Z pjb: Josh_2: &REST ARGS implies that ARGS is a LIST. READ-LINE takes as optional arguments a STREAM, and 3 BOOLEANS. When you write (readline args), you're passing a LIST as first argument instead of a STREAM. 2017-10-16T15:13:08Z pjb: Josh_2: the inconsistency is appalling! 2017-10-16T15:13:24Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-16T15:13:48Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:14:09Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T15:14:39Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-16T15:15:38Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:17:39Z Harag: when they say about sort "the list is destructively reordered" do they mean the list fed into it is trashed beyond use or that it is just reordered in place? Because I have a situation where sort is removing one of the elements of the source list but it is in the list that sort returns...? 2017-10-16T15:18:11Z WorldControl: they mean the original order is lost 2017-10-16T15:18:22Z beach: Josh_2: Here is another way of seeing it. In its simplest form, APPLY takes two arguments. The first argument is a function (call it F). The second argument is a LIST OF ARGUMENTS to F. So, in (apply #'+ '(1 2 3 4)) , The second argument is a list of the four arguments to be supplied to +. In other words, it's the same as (+ 1 2 3 4), NOT as (+ '(1 2 3 4)). 2017-10-16T15:18:51Z Shinmera: Harag: you must always use the returned value. The variable you passed in may no longer hold a useful reference. 2017-10-16T15:19:45Z Josh_2: beach: Yes I understand that 2017-10-16T15:20:04Z beach: Josh_2: But that example was exactly your question... 2017-10-16T15:20:35Z beach: Josh_2: Is (apply #'real-line args) the same as (read-line args)? For the same reason as above, it is not the case. 2017-10-16T15:20:36Z Harag: Shinmera: so I need to do a copy-list to retain the source list? 2017-10-16T15:20:46Z Shinmera: Harag: yes. 2017-10-16T15:21:05Z Harag: thats ouch for performance 2017-10-16T15:21:44Z beach: Harag: Nah, if it weren't like that, SORT would have to copy first, so it would be the same, except that you would not have a choice. 2017-10-16T15:21:50Z pjb: Harag: anything can happen: CARs may be modified, or CDRs may be modified, or both. 2017-10-16T15:21:53Z Bike: if you need both the source list and the sorted list, could you even do that more cheaply in another way? 2017-10-16T15:22:16Z pjb: Harag: most notably: the first cell of the returned list may be a different cell than the first cell of the argument. 2017-10-16T15:22:21Z Bike: i guess if the tail was already sorted it could hypothetically be shared 2017-10-16T15:22:45Z beach: Josh_2: In the first case, ARGS contains a list of arguments to be passed to read-line. If ARGS is a list of 3 objects, then 3 arguments will be passed to read-line. In the second case, a single argument, namely the value of ARGS (in this case a list) will be passed to read-line. 2017-10-16T15:23:00Z pjb: Harag: some implementations try to be nice with you, keeping the first and last cons cell in place. But you should not rely on it, since it wouldn't be conforming. 2017-10-16T15:23:04Z Josh_2: Okay I get it 2017-10-16T15:23:11Z beach: Josh_2: And, as pjb pointed out, read-line, does not accept a list. 2017-10-16T15:24:29Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:25:02Z Harag: pjb: i think what you describe is what is happening the last thing in the source list disappears, which happens to be the first thing in the sorted list 2017-10-16T15:25:27Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T15:25:44Z Josh_2: &rest args is a list, which I had worked out from previous examples, I just didn't put two and two together. I don't think I've ever personally used &rest args. 2017-10-16T15:26:05Z Josh_2: Thanks for the help beach and pjb next time hopefully I won't give pjb a fright 2017-10-16T15:26:18Z beach: Sure. Good luck. 2017-10-16T15:26:57Z Harag: thanx guys 2017-10-16T15:27:03Z pjb: Harag: IIRC, the only case where the length of the result is less than the length of the argument, is if the comparison is not a total order. 2017-10-16T15:27:14Z pjb: Harag: in that case, you want a topological-sort instead. 2017-10-16T15:27:27Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:27:44Z beach: Harag: Typically, the association between each CONS cells and the corresponding CAR slot is not altered. In other words, the initial list will be the same CONS cell as initially, with the same CAR in it. The rest will be reorganized as required so that the list is sorted. 2017-10-16T15:27:59Z beach: each CONS cell 2017-10-16T15:29:46Z pjb: But I recall incorrectly: If the key and predicate always return, then the sorting operation will always terminate, producing a sequence containing the same elements as sequence (that is, the result is a permutation of sequence). This is guaranteed even if the predicate does not really consistently represent a total order (in which case the elements will be scrambled in some unpredictable way, but no element will be lost) 2017-10-16T15:29:51Z beach: Harag: So if your initial list is (5 6 1 2 3), the sorted list will be (1 2 3 5 6), and the initial list still refers to the CONS cell with the 5 in it. So your destroyed list now looks like (5 6). 2017-10-16T15:30:06Z pjb: Harag: so you should always have (= (length input) (length (sort input compare))) 2017-10-16T15:31:24Z pjb: Note: the order of each subexpression matters a lot! 2017-10-16T15:31:50Z pjb: (= (length (sort input compare)) (length input)) is obviously not guaranteed as beach explains. 2017-10-16T15:34:57Z Harag: ok now I am confused, are you saying the lengths of the source and output should always be the same or not? 2017-10-16T15:35:52Z beach: The length of the source, as it was before you passed it to the destructive SORT function should be same as the length of the output. 2017-10-16T15:36:36Z beach: But after it has been processed by the destructive SORT function, the length is probably not the same. In my example it goes from 5 to 2. 2017-10-16T15:37:01Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-16T15:38:13Z beach: (let ((input-length (length input))) (= input-length (length (sort input compare)))) => true. 2017-10-16T15:38:51Z beach: (let ((output (sort input compare))) (= (length input) (length output))) => probably false. 2017-10-16T15:39:13Z Harag: ok so no 2017-10-16T15:39:16Z Harag: got it 2017-10-16T15:40:17Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:41:44Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T15:42:46Z beach: Harag: pjb's example relies on the order of evaluation of the arguments of the function =. In the first example, the length of the input is computed before SORT is called. In the second example, it's the other way around. 2017-10-16T15:43:23Z beach: Not only of the function =, of course. Of every Common Lisp function. 2017-10-16T15:43:31Z Harag: beach: thanx yes I got that its the words that cot me confused 2017-10-16T15:43:42Z Harag: cot=got 2017-10-16T15:43:44Z beach: OK. 2017-10-16T15:46:49Z Harag: wont forget this in a hurry it took me a couple of hours to find the source of the problem because once the list is sorted the output list is use later on in sort again and then no "loss" is experienced in the source list 2017-10-16T15:47:40Z Harag: I thought i was bungling the reference some where on my own never suspected sort 2017-10-16T15:50:20Z malice left #lisp 2017-10-16T15:50:27Z beach: Now you know. 2017-10-16T15:51:04Z Shinmera: Now we know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKEUujz12S4 2017-10-16T15:51:35Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2017-10-16T15:52:27Z Josh_2: 240p life. 2017-10-16T15:52:40Z Shinmera: Probably to avoid getting copyright blasted 2017-10-16T15:54:23Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T15:56:40Z travv0 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:58:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:58:37Z Xach: qlot problems!!! arrrrr 2017-10-16T15:59:05Z zackjc joined #lisp 2017-10-16T15:59:14Z zackjc left #lisp 2017-10-16T16:00:23Z Trasformatore: LiamH, solved 2017-10-16T16:00:35Z Trasformatore: LiamH, cffi missing freebsd include path 2017-10-16T16:01:09Z LiamH: If you have a patch, you should send to the cffi-devel list. 2017-10-16T16:01:22Z Trasformatore: LiamH, libffi-types.h --> #+freebsd (cc-flags ... ) 2017-10-16T16:01:40Z cgay joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:03:25Z LiamH: OK, I can add it. 2017-10-16T16:03:31Z LiamH: That's the only change? 2017-10-16T16:04:42Z Trasformatore: yes 2017-10-16T16:05:06Z papachan: Trasformatore nice 2017-10-16T16:05:24Z Trasformatore: #+freebsd (cc-flags "-I/usr/local/include") 2017-10-16T16:05:37Z Trasformatore: papachan, :) thanks 2017-10-16T16:05:38Z LiamH: It's interesting that there's already a #+freebsd conditional in there. 2017-10-16T16:05:47Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T16:06:42Z Trasformatore: yes maybe a misstyped source 2017-10-16T16:06:51Z LiamH: This is specifying the path for the location of the libffi library, not the GSL library. 2017-10-16T16:07:10Z LiamH: Your problem before was missing a GSL header. 2017-10-16T16:07:14Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:07:21Z Trasformatore: LiamH, yes but it seems to work 2017-10-16T16:07:53Z LiamH: Empirical debugging aka "it works for me" only takes you so far. 2017-10-16T16:08:49Z _bob_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:09:07Z _bob_: anyone up ? 2017-10-16T16:09:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T16:09:21Z beach: _bob_: Lots of people. 2017-10-16T16:09:24Z _bob_: im trying to learn lisp and i have a question 2017-10-16T16:09:33Z _bob_: i was trying to go through SICP 2017-10-16T16:09:47Z _bob_: but mit-scheme seems so outdated 2017-10-16T16:09:52Z beach: _bob_: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. 2017-10-16T16:09:56Z _bob_: oh 2017-10-16T16:10:05Z shka: _bob_: racket is cool, though 2017-10-16T16:10:07Z Bike: there's #scheme. and i think you can get Racket with a SICP mode. 2017-10-16T16:10:09Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:10:27Z _bob_: whats like the most popular lisp out there 2017-10-16T16:10:35Z beach: _bob_: We strongly suggest you learn Common Lisp instead. 2017-10-16T16:10:52Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:10:58Z shka: s/instead/as well 2017-10-16T16:11:01Z shka: ;-) 2017-10-16T16:11:03Z beach: _bob_: Are you asking "which dialect of Lisp" or "which implementation of Common Lisp"? 2017-10-16T16:11:11Z _bob_: is there any lisp/scheme variant that works with sicp 2017-10-16T16:11:20Z _bob_: which is also mainstream 2017-10-16T16:11:32Z shka: as established, racket is way to go nowdays 2017-10-16T16:11:32Z _bob_: beach i dont know the difference :) 2017-10-16T16:11:33Z beach: _bob_: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of what "Lisp" means, so the first question is impossible to answer. 2017-10-16T16:11:41Z dim: you could read PAIP instead of SICP, _bob_ 2017-10-16T16:11:52Z _bob_: paip works with ? 2017-10-16T16:11:58Z shka: common lisp 2017-10-16T16:11:58Z dim: Common Lisp 2017-10-16T16:12:06Z shka: but PAIP is a different kind of book 2017-10-16T16:12:06Z _bob_: okay 2017-10-16T16:12:21Z shka: if you want to just do SCIP, i suggest to try Racket 2017-10-16T16:12:27Z shka: oh, wait a second 2017-10-16T16:12:37Z dim: when you show up on #lisp, you find a strong consensus towards using Common Lisp, so if you chat with us, be prepared to be driven to CL. if you're still making your mind, chat with other people maybe? ;-) 2017-10-16T16:12:57Z _bob_: what would be the difference between paip and sicp ? 2017-10-16T16:12:58Z shka: jackdaniel: SCIP+racket is good combination? 2017-10-16T16:13:19Z shka: what you guys are using in your run? 2017-10-16T16:13:24Z beach: _bob_: PAIP is using Common Lisp and SICP is using Scheme. 2017-10-16T16:14:01Z shrdlu68: _bob_: PAIP is an introduction to CL and then an analysis of several historically significant AI programs. 2017-10-16T16:14:18Z shka: TeMPOraL: you there? 2017-10-16T16:14:27Z shka: racket is good scheme for SCIP? 2017-10-16T16:14:34Z shka: i THINK it is 2017-10-16T16:14:46Z shka: oh well, this is offtopic anyway 2017-10-16T16:14:51Z beach: Indeed. 2017-10-16T16:15:22Z shka: _bob_: try racket, i am pretty sure it will work just fine, SCIP is good book, worth reading, good luck! 2017-10-16T16:15:29Z _bob_: okay 2017-10-16T16:15:29Z _bob_: thanks 2017-10-16T16:15:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:16:01Z Guest84089 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:16:05Z beach: _bob_: On the other hand, if you need help, I hear that #scheme is mostly empty, whereas there are always lots of people here to help. But for that, you need to choose Common Lisp. :) 2017-10-16T16:16:09Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:16:33Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:17:09Z _bob_: hmm 2017-10-16T16:17:29Z shka: somebody should make CL translation of SCIP :P 2017-10-16T16:17:34Z shka: it is doable 2017-10-16T16:17:59Z shka: ok guys, take care 2017-10-16T16:18:01Z shka: i got to go 2017-10-16T16:18:02Z _bob_: i wanted to learn lisp but i also wanted a dialect that wouldnt be sort of modern and usable if i wanted to make something with it 2017-10-16T16:18:09Z _death: shka: SCIP->SICP 2017-10-16T16:18:13Z pjb: shka: already done! 3 times! 2017-10-16T16:18:27Z pjb: There's even one C++ translation! 2017-10-16T16:18:35Z shka: pjb: aha!, that would be time to drop some links! 2017-10-16T16:18:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:18:42Z nydel: i do love checking in to see beach selling someone on cl over another lisp 2017-10-16T16:18:45Z pjb: use google (and archive.org) 2017-10-16T16:18:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:18:54Z shka: right 2017-10-16T16:19:00Z shka: _death: pardon me 2017-10-16T16:19:04Z Ven is now known as Guest49263 2017-10-16T16:19:14Z beach: _bob_: Common Lisp is very modern and contains some excellent unique features. Furthermore, there are now lots of libraries, and excellent implementations that generate fast code. 2017-10-16T16:19:32Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 56.0/20171003100843]) 2017-10-16T16:19:38Z _bob_: are you saying that because this is the clisp channel ? :) 2017-10-16T16:19:46Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-16T16:19:55Z beach: _bob_: "clisp" is not an abbreviation for Common Lisp. 2017-10-16T16:19:58Z shrdlu68: s/clisp/CL 2017-10-16T16:20:07Z beach: _bob_: CLISP is and implementation of Common Lisp. 2017-10-16T16:20:19Z pjb: _bob_: there's no clisp channel. for clisp help, there is a maillist. 2017-10-16T16:20:27Z _bob_: doesnt matter what you call it 2017-10-16T16:20:34Z pjb: On the other hand, there are channels for ccl, ecl, sbcl… 2017-10-16T16:20:35Z nydel: no, beach is right. once you go commonlisp every other implementation and language becomes mostly unjustifyable, i have found. 2017-10-16T16:20:51Z pjb: _bob_: Smurf smurf smurf. And smurf smurf too. 2017-10-16T16:20:59Z nydel: i'll say that in any other language's channel. but i'm not in any. 2017-10-16T16:21:06Z _bob_: clisp seems old, racket seems like it has batteries included 2017-10-16T16:21:10Z beach: _bob_: And, yes, I am saying that because that's kind of the purpose of this channel. On the other hand, the reason I am here is that Common Lisp is a modern language with unique features and excellent implementations. 2017-10-16T16:21:26Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-10-16T16:21:42Z beach: ... as nydel pointed out. 2017-10-16T16:22:14Z pjb: _bob_: clisp smurf smurf not smurf, and we don't smurf smurf racket, smurf smurf. 2017-10-16T16:22:32Z _bob_: im going to use racket and clisp if i decide to do paip 2017-10-16T16:22:39Z _bob_: thanks anyways 2017-10-16T16:22:56Z beach: *sigh* 2017-10-16T16:23:56Z shrdlu68: Lisp's reputation precedes it. 2017-10-16T16:24:35Z nektoplasma joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:24:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T16:26:53Z dim: well it looks like racket is a solid choice too 2017-10-16T16:26:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:27:10Z S1ohy is now known as Guest2633 2017-10-16T16:27:10Z Guest2633 quit (Killed (hobana.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2017-10-16T16:27:15Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:27:19Z dim: I like their tutorial with images, and I've been using that with my daughter 2017-10-16T16:27:52Z dim: I'd like to have CLIM working on the laptop so that we may switch to CL before she knows enough for the transition to mean anything, now it would still be very easy 2017-10-16T16:28:23Z dim: https://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/ --- can we port that to CLIM? 2017-10-16T16:28:26Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:29:44Z beach: Those images would not be hard to reproduce in the CLIM listener. 2017-10-16T16:29:47Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:30:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:30:04Z beach: That would be a cute little project, in fact. 2017-10-16T16:30:29Z dim: well I have motivation to help, and a Fedora laptop now 2017-10-16T16:30:49Z beach: Great! You know about the #clim channel, right? 2017-10-16T16:31:02Z dim: now I do ;-) 2017-10-16T16:31:10Z beach: Oh! :) 2017-10-16T16:31:29Z dim: tonight is beers apparently, I'll check it out and will try to have McClim running on the Fedora laptop first 2017-10-16T16:31:51Z dim: if I manage to have that, then the next step is reproducing the racket tutorial, then a logo I guess 2017-10-16T16:31:55Z beach: OK. The listener is still a great way to play with McCLIM. 2017-10-16T16:32:03Z dim: all with a translation framework for kids not speaking english 2017-10-16T16:32:15Z Guest49263 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:32:20Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:32:36Z beach: Sounds very good to me. 2017-10-16T16:32:58Z dim: then I want to code a mine sweeper and a snake game, things like that 2017-10-16T16:33:30Z dim: maybe a very stupid othello board and AI too, with an exercise to make is smart enough for the kid to stop being able to win any game 2017-10-16T16:33:44Z dim: fun things to do with kids interested into programming ;-) 2017-10-16T16:33:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:34:21Z nektoplasma: just Pong or Space Invaders might be fun too :) 2017-10-16T16:34:29Z dim: anyway, too many ideas 2017-10-16T16:34:44Z _bob_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-16T16:35:03Z dim: nektoplasma: yeah, Space Invaders was a hit with my younger, in Scratch, he wanted to add features then slow down invaders and speed up is missiles, things like that 2017-10-16T16:35:17Z dim: hacking a game to make it easier to win is a good introduction to programming too ;-) 2017-10-16T16:35:25Z dim: (that's what the kid said, anyway) 2017-10-16T16:35:28Z nektoplasma: it's a great for hacking in those kinds of things 2017-10-16T16:35:54Z dim hopes he will be able to start a CLIM listener on the other laptop when he tries, later 2017-10-16T16:35:56Z dim: gn! 2017-10-16T16:37:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:38:09Z Ven is now known as Guest48109 2017-10-16T16:39:18Z puercopop joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:39:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:41:37Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:42:48Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:44:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:45:09Z paule32 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T16:46:29Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:49:01Z scymtym_: Xach: XachX: you mentioned an ASDF 3.3.0 problem a few days ago. how did that turn out? i'm asking because we are considering updating SBCL's bundled ASDF to 3.3.0 for the release after the next one 2017-10-16T16:50:41Z XachX: I passed it along to rpgoldman but don’t think there’s any progress on repair. 2017-10-16T16:51:19Z scymtym_: is it grave enough to make upgrading a bad idea? 2017-10-16T16:52:01Z XachX: I think so. I am not upgrading to uiop in Quicklisp until it is resolved. 2017-10-16T16:52:22Z XachX: It makes the build very very slow and breaks some things. 2017-10-16T16:52:36Z XachX: 3x or 4x build time. 2017-10-16T16:52:59Z scymtym_: that would be quote fitting after cut ironclad build time in half :) 2017-10-16T16:53:03Z scymtym_: *quite 2017-10-16T16:53:49Z scymtym_: we may have to wait with upgrading then. thank you for the information 2017-10-16T16:53:57Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-16T16:54:28Z XachX: I don’t know if the slowdown is distributed evenly or on a few very bad cases. I guess I can provide some data! 2017-10-16T16:55:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-16T16:56:32Z scymtym_: it doesn't matter. we could barely convince stassats when there were no known issues 2017-10-16T16:56:42Z nektoplasma quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-16T16:56:53Z scymtym_: sorry, it doesn't matter for SBCL 2017-10-16T17:00:23Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-16T17:00:33Z nektoplasma joined #lisp 2017-10-16T17:01:14Z nektoplasma_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T17:01:24Z nektoplasma_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-16T17:01:34Z Guest48109 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-16T17:05:38Z whartung joined #lisp 2017-10-16T17:07:09Z scymtym_: XachX: reading this again, i'm not sure it came out right. i meant "sorry that i said it doesn't matter". i very much appreciate the work you do to ensure that Quicklisp, ASDF, SBCL and the other pieces function together 2017-10-16T17:10:33Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-16T17:13:02Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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nice. 2017-10-17T02:03:11Z drmeister: I had a little trouble destructuring some of the results of rules. 2017-10-17T02:03:37Z drmeister: I don't have any specific questions - but was curious if you had some pointers. 2017-10-17T02:07:03Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:09:05Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T02:11:07Z vjuice joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:12:32Z vjuice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T02:13:00Z vjuice joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:13:51Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T02:14:37Z vjuice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T02:17:11Z vjuice joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:22:09Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:23:25Z vjuice- joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:23:29Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T02:25:32Z deikiyoch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T02:26:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-17T02:30:22Z compro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T02:30:38Z vjuice- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T02:33:27Z vjuice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T02:36:57Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T02:37:08Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:37:12Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T02:37:45Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:38:30Z copec joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:41:56Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-17T02:42:10Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:43:07Z borei: beach: missed your question, no, no French at all, Russian my native one. 2017-10-17T02:43:57Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-17T02:44:29Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T02:44:29Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-17T02:55:22Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-17T03:17:52Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T03:22:38Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T03:26:17Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T03:31:55Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-10-17T03:33:57Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2017-10-17T03:36:00Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-17T03:40:02Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T03:40:41Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T03:41:20Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T03:41:48Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-17T03:45:50Z JSA_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T03:49:06Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-10-17T03:52:48Z Bike_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-17T03:56:46Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T03:58:31Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T03:58:50Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-17T03:59:59Z aoh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T04:06:11Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:07:50Z aoh joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:13:18Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-17T04:17:45Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:17:48Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:18:07Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T04:20:04Z mikecheck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T04:20:43Z soyeomul joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:21:04Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-17T04:21:17Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T04:22:31Z soyeomul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-10-17T04:27:17Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:28:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:33:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:36:57Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:39:01Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T04:40:50Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:41:24Z emaczen`` joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:41:27Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T04:41:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:42:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:42:25Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T04:44:26Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-17T04:47:08Z cheerster joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:50:58Z emaczen`` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T04:54:13Z whoman: la plaige 2017-10-17T04:55:06Z selfishman joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:57:30Z iqubic_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:58:59Z selfishman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T04:59:46Z selfishman_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T04:59:47Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T05:01:57Z selfishman_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T05:03:58Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-17T05:05:13Z cheerster quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-17T05:06:13Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T05:12:18Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T05:13:48Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-17T05:14:20Z _death: minion: memo for dim: maybe you'll find what I hacked this past few hours a useful start - https://github.com/death/TIC-80 2017-10-17T05:14:23Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-10-17T05:21:21Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:24:56Z _death: jackdaniel: may be of interest to you as well ;) 2017-10-17T05:25:06Z _death: but now it's time to sleep 2017-10-17T05:25:32Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:28:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T05:33:50Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:36:33Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T05:36:53Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T05:37:30Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:37:37Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T05:39:51Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:40:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:49:47Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-17T05:50:28Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T05:50:41Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:51:33Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-17T05:54:31Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-17T05:58:38Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:00:21Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-17T06:01:37Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:07:03Z shka_: beach: hello 2017-10-17T06:12:07Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T06:12:23Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:16:05Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T06:18:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T06:25:42Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:29:38Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:30:49Z dmiles quit (Excess Flood) 2017-10-17T06:32:07Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:33:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T06:37:42Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:45:12Z osune joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:51:41Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-17T06:54:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:57:21Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:58:28Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T06:58:51Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-17T07:02:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-17T07:04:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T07:05:57Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T07:12:13Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T07:13:49Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-17T07:18:55Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T07:20:09Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T07:20:52Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T07:24:47Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T07:31:28Z ski joined #lisp 2017-10-17T07:31:58Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-17T07:34:15Z scymtym: drmeister: i'm impressed. c++ function pointers doesn't sound like the easiest grammar. did you translate an existing grammar or develop a new one? 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264 seconds) 2017-10-17T15:36:01Z care quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T15:36:09Z akem is now known as hontsie 2017-10-17T15:37:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-17T15:38:52Z searcher2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T15:38:58Z care joined #lisp 2017-10-17T15:41:21Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T15:43:30Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-17T15:46:02Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T15:46:10Z clintm: If you inspect the value of a long string in the slime debugger, you get a list of the individual characters. Do any of you know if there's a way to further inspect the string as a readable string instead of a vertical list of characters? 2017-10-17T15:58:52Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T16:00:48Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:01:41Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:06:07Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:07:16Z pjb: clintm: e (print string) RET 2017-10-17T16:07:22Z pjb: or just e string RET 2017-10-17T16:08:20Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:08:53Z edu_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:10:12Z clintm: pjb: thanks! 2017-10-17T16:15:40Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T16:16:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T16:16:05Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:16:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:18:20Z edu_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:20:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:20:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:21:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:27:20Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-17T16:31:20Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:31:31Z sjl_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-17T16:31:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:32:48Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:33:03Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:33:17Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:33:23Z vsync joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:35:17Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:35:18Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T16:36:22Z nikivi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:38:50Z sjl: Shinmera: hey, is there any way to make playing sound effects in harmony faster than a bare (harmony-simple:play #p"foo.mp3" :sfx)? 2017-10-17T16:39:04Z Shinmera: "faster" ? 2017-10-17T16:39:12Z sjl: I'm trying to play a sound effect in a game, but there's a noticeable latency between when I make that call and when the sound actually starts 2017-10-17T16:39:20Z sjl: like somewhere on the order of 1/3 of a seconds 2017-10-17T16:39:39Z sjl: which doesn't matter for music, but for the "you got a powerup" sound is a bit too much latency 2017-10-17T16:39:56Z Shinmera: There's a class that loads the file into a buffer first before playing it. 2017-10-17T16:40:44Z sjl: yeah, I assume the issue is that it's loading it from scratch from the filesystem every time 2017-10-17T16:40:49Z Shinmera: Yes 2017-10-17T16:40:55Z Shinmera: That's only one part of the issue though 2017-10-17T16:40:59Z sjl: I tried adding it paused and unpausing it, but when the sound finishes it gets removed from the source 2017-10-17T16:41:04Z sjl: er, segment 2017-10-17T16:41:30Z sjl: what is the buffer class you mentioned? I grepped https://shirakumo.github.io/harmony/ for buffer but none of the results look promising 2017-10-17T16:41:54Z Shinmera: So there's an mp3-buffer-source, and I started working on a way to create a source from a buffer without copying stuff around but stopped working on harmony before that got completed. 2017-10-17T16:42:05Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/harmony/blob/master/sources/mp3.lisp#L70 2017-10-17T16:42:22Z sjl: ah 2017-10-17T16:42:23Z Shinmera: So the work to get this going as one desires is only half-done, unfortunately. 2017-10-17T16:42:36Z Shinmera: However, aside from file I/O there's other issues causing latency 2017-10-17T16:42:52Z sjl: aside from the actual sound sample buffer itself? 2017-10-17T16:42:54Z Shinmera: namely the current audio buffer needs to be played to finish before any segment additions or things like that can be processed. 2017-10-17T16:43:16Z sjl: sure, but that's set to 441/44100 by default I think, right? 2017-10-17T16:43:26Z sjl: so about .1s latency in the worst case 2017-10-17T16:43:31Z Shinmera: Yes 2017-10-17T16:43:40Z Shinmera: Then there's thread synchronisation constructs that might take time 2017-10-17T16:44:04Z Shinmera: Which is currently actually disabled on windows since it was taking up to a second to synchronise with a monitor on SBCL (!!) 2017-10-17T16:44:12Z sjl: good lord 2017-10-17T16:44:37Z Shinmera: There's other stuff that's not as efficient as can be, but.. yeah. 2017-10-17T16:44:43Z sjl: the audio buffer size is a fact of life, I can live with it 2017-10-17T16:44:55Z sjl: or possibly reduce the buffer size to trade cpu for latency if really necessary 2017-10-17T16:45:09Z Shinmera: I wish I had time to work on everything I have, heh. If you do have the time to help improve Harmony, I'd love to do what I can to take you through the source and stuff. 2017-10-17T16:46:08Z sjl: what still needs to be done for that mp3-buffer playing? 2017-10-17T16:46:18Z sjl: it sounds like that could be a good, standalone thing that would reduce latency 2017-10-17T16:47:08Z sjl: I'd ideally like to use it for this Lisp Game Jam game I'm working on this week 2017-10-17T16:47:12Z Shinmera: Well it already works, but it's not really useful if you need to load a new buffer every time you want to play back, you know 2017-10-17T16:47:24Z sjl: yeah 2017-10-17T16:47:26Z Shinmera: So what needs to be done is to be able to "clone" additional sources from the same buffer 2017-10-17T16:47:36Z Shinmera: Which doesn't sound hard, but last I tried it I ran into odd issues. 2017-10-17T16:47:44Z Shinmera: Been a while though so I don't recall what was going on 2017-10-17T16:48:08Z care quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T16:48:37Z Shinmera: So either there needs to be a clone thingy, or you need to make the buffered-source work and give a convenient function to decode an mp3 in full to a buffer, or something. 2017-10-17T16:49:08Z sjl: it seems like decoding the entire mp3 into a buffer ahead of time is the best option 2017-10-17T16:49:27Z Shinmera: Yes, it makes complete sense for sfx 2017-10-17T16:49:30Z sjl: since the entire point of doing this is to do as much ahead of time 2017-10-17T16:49:34Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:49:37Z sjl: to reduce latency at playtime 2017-10-17T16:49:59Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:50:05Z Shinmera: be right back, eating dinner. I'll read and respond once I'm done with pizza 2017-10-17T16:50:26Z sjl: okay. this could be tricky because I'm on the US west coast for work, so it's 09:50 here, lol 2017-10-17T16:51:02Z Shinmera: Usually I'm available from 9-24 CEST 2017-10-17T16:51:47Z sjl: okay. I'll probably just ask you questions and then do the actual work... after my real job 2017-10-17T16:52:03Z Shinmera: Alright. Sorry that the docs are a bit spread around and sparse in places. 2017-10-17T16:52:53Z sjl: It's okay. They "exist" which is already head and shoulders above most other Lisp libraries. 2017-10-17T16:53:21Z sjl: I need to find a JS bookmarklet that will generate a table of contents from an html page's headers... 2017-10-17T16:53:35Z Shinmera: I usually don't subscribe to the argument of "everything else is worse so this being bad is fine" ;) 2017-10-17T16:54:25Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T16:54:47Z sjl: In a perfect world, yeah. But in practice, I'll take what I can get. 2017-10-17T16:54:49Z |3b|: clintm: you can also hit p in slime inspector to pretty print an object, including the #<...> at top of inspector when you inspect a string 2017-10-17T16:55:18Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:57:04Z nikivi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:57:17Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:57:38Z Shinmera: sjl: Anyway, starting from the bottom with https://github.com/Shirakumo/libmixed/blob/master/src/mixed.h and then moving on to https://shirakumo.github.io/cl-mixed/ would probably be the best way to start. 2017-10-17T16:57:44Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T16:58:18Z compro joined #lisp 2017-10-17T16:58:46Z Shinmera: Just to get a feeling for the overall architecture. 2017-10-17T16:58:55Z sjl: my audio-processing-in-lisp experience has so far been limited to dumping square/sine/sawtooth waves into a portaudio buffer, so it might take me a while to get my head around allt he parts here 2017-10-17T16:59:21Z Shinmera: Mh, it doesn't really talk about dsp details so you should be fine. 2017-10-17T16:59:54Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:00:34Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T17:01:34Z sjl: Shinmera: I see the word "segment" a lot in the docs, but it's not defined first. what is a segment? 2017-10-17T17:01:56Z Shinmera: The basic idea is that there's a DAG of segments which do some computation on audio buffers. There's sources, which translate raw data from some format to the internal, "decompressed" buffers. Then there's drains which do the opposite. Everything else does buffer->buffer transformations. 2017-10-17T17:02:13Z Shinmera: A segment as in, a segment of a pipeline 2017-10-17T17:02:48Z edu_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:03:13Z travv0 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T17:03:50Z Shinmera: Each segment has a number of options, and a number of input and output ports, each of which carry a buffer and potential, other options. 2017-10-17T17:04:18Z compro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T17:07:58Z sjl: Shinmera: okay I gotta go, I'll ping you later after I read cl-mixed's docs on my lunch break 2017-10-17T17:08:04Z Shinmera: Alright 2017-10-17T17:08:14Z Shinmera: Thanks again for looking into this :) 2017-10-17T17:08:26Z sjl: yep. thanks for making it in the first place 2017-10-17T17:09:34Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-17T17:10:16Z Shinmera: I like to say that I was left with no choice 2017-10-17T17:15:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:27:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T17:29:53Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:31:38Z dieggsy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2017-10-17T17:33:48Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T17:41:24Z sjl: Shinmera: another unrelated question: I have a bunch of music files I'd like to play as background music for my game, and when one finishes I'd like to start another one 2017-10-17T17:41:55Z sjl: is the right way to do this to save the source I get back from (play ...)and check (ended-p ...) on each tick? 2017-10-17T17:42:11Z sjl: and then (play (random-song) :music) when that returns true? 2017-10-17T17:42:21Z sjl: or is there another strategy 2017-10-17T17:43:33Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:45:08Z care joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:46:27Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T17:47:21Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:47:43Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T17:48:07Z Shinmera: Better would probably be to subclass the source and add an :after method to (setf ended-p) that starts the next track. 2017-10-17T17:48:21Z Shinmera: Well, if ended-p is being set to T of course 2017-10-17T17:49:47Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:50:41Z care quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T17:51:23Z sjl: That's another thing I wasn't clear on -- if I subclass the source, will that new subclass be used for ALL mp3 files? 2017-10-17T17:51:47Z Shinmera: No, how would it know about it? 2017-10-17T17:51:48Z sjl: ah, no I can probably pass the type to #'play 2017-10-17T17:51:56Z Shinmera: Yes 2017-10-17T17:52:13Z Shinmera: PLAY doesn't do too much so you can also replicate what it does easily enough if you already have an instance. 2017-10-17T17:53:10Z sjl: So it would be something like (defclass music-source (mp3-source) ...) ..after method on setf ended-p... (play "foo.mp3" :music :source-type 'music-source) ? 2017-10-17T17:53:32Z Shinmera: Well, I'd probably make what you want to play next a slot on the class so you can chain things and parametrise it, yeah? 2017-10-17T17:55:07Z Shinmera: Actually you'd probably want to do it on a :before method and instead do something like (add (make-instance 'bla ...) (mixer source)) 2017-10-17T17:55:13Z sjl: if this weren't game-jam-quality code, sure 2017-10-17T17:55:34Z Shinmera: I might add a mixin for that kinda deal since it seems generally useful. 2017-10-17T17:55:56Z sjl: (mixer source) is to automatically add it to the same mixer as the thing that's ending? 2017-10-17T17:56:04Z Shinmera: Yes 2017-10-17T17:56:10Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T17:56:27Z Shinmera: If you just want to hack it together quick your idea works too of course 2017-10-17T17:56:39Z sjl: sure, for the jam I can just hardcode things 2017-10-17T17:56:49Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-17T17:56:58Z paule32: some noobs there? 2017-10-17T17:57:04Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-10-17T18:04:21Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T18:07:30Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T18:08:18Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T18:10:09Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T18:10:09Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T18:12:16Z jmercouris: paule32: where? 2017-10-17T18:13:10Z paule32 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T18:13:20Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T18:15:20Z care joined #lisp 2017-10-17T18:18:50Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-17T18:20:26Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-17T18:21:35Z banjiewen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T18:21:56Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2017-10-17T18:23:12Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-17T18:24:19Z edu_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T18:29:35Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T18:42:37Z Xach: Hmm, what's a good example of a project named "cl-foo" that defines a system named "foo"? 2017-10-17T18:42:46Z Xach: Or does that only happen on the system-name -> package-name level? 2017-10-17T18:42:56Z Xach writes some code to find out 2017-10-17T18:45:57Z _death: cl-autowrap 2017-10-17T18:46:32Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-17T18:46:32Z _death: oh, system 2017-10-17T18:46:48Z edu_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T18:49:55Z Xach: js defines cl-js, cl-yacc defines yacc 2017-10-17T18:50:01Z Xach: many more examples found by Coding 2017-10-17T18:54:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-17T18:55:34Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T19:00:15Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T19:07:31Z dim: lots and lots, I've had to struggle with that in ql-to-deb 2017-10-17T19:07:32Z minion: dim, memo from _death: maybe you'll find what I hacked this past few hours a useful start - https://github.com/death/TIC-80 2017-10-17T19:07:39Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:07:43Z dim: _death: that looks very interesting thanks! 2017-10-17T19:07:49Z dim: (I had a look earlier) 2017-10-17T19:07:56Z _death: cool :) 2017-10-17T19:08:58Z _death: wonder if ecl has anything like sb-ext:defglobal 2017-10-17T19:09:25Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T19:09:51Z zulu_inuoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T19:11:55Z _death: guess just setfing also works 2017-10-17T19:12:31Z travv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T19:14:43Z osune joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:15:15Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:15:21Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-17T19:16:09Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T19:19:49Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:26:55Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-17T19:29:05Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:31:54Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:35:05Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:37:32Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T19:38:48Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T19:40:05Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T19:40:08Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:40:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:40:18Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T19:40:52Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T19:42:55Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T19:46:21Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:47:47Z care quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-17T19:51:15Z care joined #lisp 2017-10-17T19:52:30Z pjb: _death: given that you can define defglobal in two lines, why should it have it? Just do it! 2017-10-17T19:53:32Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:00:37Z scymtym: pjb: which aspects would that replicate? performance characteristics or behavior or both? 2017-10-17T20:01:48Z pjb: all. 2017-10-17T20:03:36Z scymtym: how would you define it? not asking sarcastically - i really can't think of a way 2017-10-17T20:05:45Z pjb: using define-symbol-macro. 2017-10-17T20:05:59Z pjb: It's found in libraries, either as defglobal or as deflex. 2017-10-17T20:07:12Z scymtym: symbol macros can be shadowed by LET bindings. i think DEFGLOBAL prevents that 2017-10-17T20:08:44Z pjb: If it's lexical, then it should be shadowable lexically. 2017-10-17T20:09:26Z scymtym: maybe, but that's not what SB-EXT:DEFGLOBAL does 2017-10-17T20:10:12Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-17T20:10:22Z scymtym: then again, _death said "like sb-ext:defglobal", so he could have referred to a subset of its behavior 2017-10-17T20:12:01Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-17T20:15:37Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:17:03Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:18:08Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T20:20:03Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:21:34Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:24:42Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T20:25:54Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:27:37Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:27:37Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:28:35Z edu_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-17T20:31:59Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T20:34:27Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T20:36:47Z osune quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T20:43:03Z azahi quit (Quit: ded) 2017-10-17T20:43:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:48:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T20:49:54Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T20:51:58Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:54:27Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-17T20:55:39Z thebardian left #lisp 2017-10-17T20:58:10Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:00:38Z miatomi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T21:00:55Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:04:15Z care quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-10-17T21:05:32Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T21:10:38Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:10:42Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T21:11:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T21:12:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:14:41Z aeth: (defparameter *foo* (list 1 2 3)) (define-symbol-macro foobar (elt *foo* 2)) (macroexpand-1 'foobar) => (ELT *FOO* 2) 2017-10-17T21:14:43Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:14:52Z aeth: I think that would be the problem with defining a global via define-symbol-macro 2017-10-17T21:15:23Z aeth: people might want a copy instead of a reference 2017-10-17T21:15:58Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:15:59Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T21:16:28Z aeth: in fact, referencing things that aren't global won't work, e.g. (let ((temp (elt *foo* 2))) (define-symbol-macro barfoo temp)) ; barfoo will only work in places where there's a defined temp, like e.g. (let ((temp (elt *foo* 2))) barfoo) 2017-10-17T21:17:00Z aeth: It's fine for things like (define-symbol-macro foo 42) 2017-10-17T21:19:57Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T21:27:52Z aeth: I suppose the way to handle it properly would be to have a mutable global *foo* (probably an array or hash table, though) because otherwise setf won't work as expected. 2017-10-17T21:27:54Z _death: pjb: yes, for my purposes defvar+define-symbol-macro could work.. I just wanted to know whether ecl already has such a thing 2017-10-17T21:28:26Z pjb: and ccl and clisp and cmucl and abcl and and and 2017-10-17T21:31:09Z aeth: Where's ecl's defglobal located? 2017-10-17T21:33:44Z _death: pjb: I embedded ecl, not the other ones 2017-10-17T21:34:18Z aeth: It doesn't look like ECL has a defglobal. SBCL and CCL do. 2017-10-17T21:34:57Z aeth: At the very least, there's no mention of it here. https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/ecldoc/Extensions.html 2017-10-17T21:35:55Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:36:35Z _death: guess that for a nicer CL experience w/ tic-80 there'd have to be a specific module.. but that is a job for another time 2017-10-17T21:36:58Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T21:43:57Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T21:44:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:48:01Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T21:48:03Z marvin2 quit 2017-10-17T21:48:17Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:48:23Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T21:48:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T21:48:49Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:50:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T21:50:22Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-17T21:50:51Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:51:54Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-17T21:52:57Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T21:56:15Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-17T21:56:49Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-17T21:59:35Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:02:47Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T22:03:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-17T22:03:45Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-17T22:04:11Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:05:14Z rackj joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:09:42Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-17T22:09:42Z rackj left #lisp 2017-10-17T22:14:02Z S1ohy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T22:19:14Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:20:21Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T22:20:30Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-17T22:21:44Z hyuman joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:22:38Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:23:08Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-17T22:30:47Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:36:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:37:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:39:49Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:41:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T22:45:04Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T22:45:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:46:06Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:47:19Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:47:23Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T22:50:37Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:50:47Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:53:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-17T22:57:33Z S1ohy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-17T22:58:18Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:01:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:02:55Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-17T23:05:31Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:14:15Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-17T23:16:05Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:16:21Z pierpa: CCL's DEFGLOBAL doesn't do what I understand you are talking about here. It's only vaguely related to global variables. 2017-10-17T23:16:57Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:17:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-17T23:18:35Z pierpa: well, ok it's related, but it doesn't do what it's name suggests. 2017-10-17T23:22:26Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:26:02Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-17T23:28:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-17T23:37:43Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-17T23:38:43Z aeth: I guess I should've written a full test then 2017-10-17T23:40:16Z aeth: my bad 2017-10-17T23:40:49Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-17T23:42:24Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:48:35Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-17T23:50:14Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-18T00:04:53Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-18T00:05:01Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T00:06:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T00:12:15Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T00:19:49Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-18T00:20:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T00:26:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-18T00:31:49Z QualityAddict is now known as Guest68997 2017-10-18T00:31:51Z qualityaddict joined #lisp 2017-10-18T00:40:34Z Bike quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-10-18T00:40:36Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2017-10-18T00:40:54Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-18T00:41:22Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-18T00:48:32Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-10-18T00:49:10Z yCrazyEdd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T00:50:47Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:04:29Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T01:07:15Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T01:09:17Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T01:14:04Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:16:31Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:17:56Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:20:46Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T01:23:12Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T01:23:48Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:24:01Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-18T01:25:42Z qualityaddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T01:25:58Z Guest68997 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T01:26:12Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:26:28Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:37:14Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-18T01:45:29Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:46:05Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:46:14Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T01:49:23Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T01:59:33Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T02:01:29Z takitus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T02:02:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:13:25Z miatomi_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T02:15:54Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:19:18Z CrazyEddy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T02:21:14Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:25:37Z turkja1 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:25:51Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:28:17Z turkja quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T02:30:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T02:31:31Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:31:49Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-18T02:40:11Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:41:02Z S1ohy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-18T02:41:56Z turkja1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T02:43:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:44:05Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T02:46:35Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-18T02:47:11Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T02:47:51Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T02:49:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T02:50:50Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:07:22Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-18T03:09:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:12:33Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T03:15:47Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-18T03:20:26Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:22:20Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T03:22:42Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:25:52Z gorgor quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T03:30:40Z Josh_2: Morning beach I've not been to bed yet 2017-10-18T03:33:27Z gorgor joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:33:53Z beach: Josh_2: Whether that is good or bad depends on the time zone you are in. 2017-10-18T03:34:04Z Josh_2: Well I'm in Scotland 2017-10-18T03:34:10Z beach: So that's bad then. 2017-10-18T03:34:20Z beach: Or, rather, it would have been if it were me. 2017-10-18T03:34:23Z Josh_2: Well I went out to a nightclub with some friends 2017-10-18T03:35:39Z beach: And you come to IRC afterwards? Hmm. 2017-10-18T03:35:48Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:35:51Z Bike: life of the party 2017-10-18T03:36:24Z Josh_2: I left my laptop on, I was attacked by someone I know so that sobered me up pretty fast 2017-10-18T03:37:44Z iqubic: Wow... 2017-10-18T03:38:41Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T03:40:25Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:42:05Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2017-10-18T03:46:40Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-18T03:47:05Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T03:49:36Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-18T03:55:48Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T03:57:50Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-18T04:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:04:35Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:06:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:13:41Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:21:08Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T04:22:21Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:26:31Z lockdown joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:33:05Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:34:23Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:35:49Z lockdown quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-18T04:38:03Z eMBee joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:44:37Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:45:08Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:47:35Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:48:24Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T04:48:41Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:50:37Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:51:59Z wallyduchamp joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:52:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:53:24Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T04:53:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T04:54:19Z wallyduchamp quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-18T04:54:41Z wallyduchamp joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:55:04Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T04:59:11Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-18T05:03:38Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-10-18T05:26:47Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T05:40:26Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-18T05:42:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-18T05:43:46Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T05:52:06Z osune joined #lisp 2017-10-18T05:54:24Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-18T05:54:47Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T05:58:38Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T06:00:50Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-18T06:01:17Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T06:01:24Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:11:30Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:13:59Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T06:14:52Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:20:05Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T06:25:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T06:25:10Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T06:29:18Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:29:55Z osune quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T06:31:59Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:35:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T06:39:41Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:40:10Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:42:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:43:01Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T06:43:44Z krwq: hello, I wonder, does every lisp implementation use cons or is there any where (equal () t)? ( () would be an empty list but nil is not a list ) 2017-10-18T06:45:38Z SaganMan: I think every implementation use cons but lisp intepretor doesn't bother to print nil 2017-10-18T06:46:26Z krwq: wouldn't making nil != () make optimizations easier? 2017-10-18T06:46:28Z SaganMan: krwq: what lisp implementation are you using? sbcl? 2017-10-18T06:47:12Z krwq: sbcl but currently writing my tiny interpreter which I'd like to eventually expand to compiler 2017-10-18T06:47:31Z SaganMan: I put (type-off ()) and it says it's nul 2017-10-18T06:47:31Z osune joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:47:42Z basket quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T06:47:52Z krwq: I meant lisp as general lisp not common lisp 2017-10-18T06:48:22Z SaganMan: general lisp? you mean in all lisp types? 2017-10-18T06:48:43Z krwq: like any lisp - scheme or other 2017-10-18T06:49:00Z SaganMan: hmm, don't know mate. I'm quite new to lisp. 2017-10-18T06:49:12Z jdz: An empty list is not a cons [cell]. 2017-10-18T06:49:52Z jdz: In Common Lisp an empty list is NIL, and () is read by _the reader_ as NIL. 2017-10-18T06:50:14Z krwq: if every lisp implementation chose cons I'll go with implementing list with conses if there is a precedence for choosing more memory friendly list representation I'll go with that 2017-10-18T06:50:52Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:50:52Z krwq: I know how common lisp does it but I'm questioning if that is good 2017-10-18T06:51:30Z jdz: krwq: you mean you want to implement list using vectors instead of cons cells? 2017-10-18T06:51:37Z krwq: yes 2017-10-18T06:52:28Z jdz: Why? 2017-10-18T06:52:51Z krwq: I noticed when I write in common lisp i rarely play such low level as list manipulation so there is not much gain in doing linked list 2017-10-18T06:52:53Z jdz: Use coll vectors "vectors", and single-linked lists "lists". 2017-10-18T06:53:22Z jdz: My fingers are failing me. 2017-10-18T06:53:38Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:54:11Z krwq: I wouldn't mind reversing it so that regular list would be implemented with vector but linked list implementation could be there too 2017-10-18T06:54:17Z jdz: krwq: if you've looked at basic data structures you'd know that these are different data structures, and have different properties and tradeoffs. 2017-10-18T06:54:33Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:54:46Z jdz: So "play such low level as list manipulation" sounds weird to me. 2017-10-18T06:54:53Z krwq: jdz: i did a lot of algorithms and from my experience linked list is almost always slower than vector 2017-10-18T06:55:08Z jdz: krwq: at implementing a stack? 2017-10-18T06:55:28Z krwq: jdz: what do you mean 2017-10-18T06:55:44Z jdz: krwq: compare implementing a stack using lists or vectors. 2017-10-18T06:56:11Z krwq: jdz: stack is also better with vector - you could argue with queue probably 2017-10-18T06:56:34Z krwq: thread-safe queue i would probably go with linked list 2017-10-18T06:56:38Z jdz: krwq: you have to implement resizing. 2017-10-18T06:57:06Z krwq: jdz: that's like 10 lines of code 2017-10-18T06:57:25Z jdz: Yes, but in list case it's 1 function. 2017-10-18T06:57:31Z jdz: Called CONS. 2017-10-18T06:58:09Z basket joined #lisp 2017-10-18T06:58:14Z shka_: beach: bring it on! 2017-10-18T06:58:20Z shka_: people need educationg 2017-10-18T06:58:20Z krwq: but when you compile to machine code you could easily put non-mutable vector on the stack while mutable conses will be a PITA 2017-10-18T06:58:29Z jdz: Also, sharing tails. 2017-10-18T06:58:52Z jdz: krwq: can't you put non-mutable cons cells on the stack? 2017-10-18T06:59:23Z shka_: jdz: CAAAAAAAAAAACHE! 2017-10-18T06:59:26Z krwq: how often do you actually use inserting in the middle of the list 2017-10-18T06:59:39Z jdz: krwq: exactly. 2017-10-18T06:59:59Z krwq: i almost never do - almost always appending which gives vector and advantage 2017-10-18T07:00:07Z krwq: an* 2017-10-18T07:00:25Z jdz: Well, I might be weird, but I almost never use appending. 2017-10-18T07:01:03Z jdz: I assume you mean pushing to the tail. 2017-10-18T07:01:22Z krwq: if you define it in cons terms then yes 2017-10-18T07:01:43Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:02:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:02:07Z jdz: krwq: I think you might have done too much Python recently. 2017-10-18T07:02:26Z krwq: jdz: no python 2017-10-18T07:02:47Z krwq: so tell me some examples where cons gives you advantage 2017-10-18T07:02:59Z SaganMan: haha, I was thinking that too 2017-10-18T07:03:12Z SaganMan: array.append() 2017-10-18T07:03:41Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:03:49Z krwq: i was thinking (append '(1 2 3) '(4 5)) 2017-10-18T07:03:58Z krwq: or .push_back 2017-10-18T07:04:45Z jdz: Consing is non-destructive. 2017-10-18T07:04:48Z SaganMan: ah, I haven't done append in lisp 2017-10-18T07:05:11Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T07:05:34Z SaganMan: krwq: Where cons give advantage is when you want to match things 2017-10-18T07:05:53Z Zhivago: Where cons gives an advantage is with recursive (de)composition. 2017-10-18T07:05:58Z jdz: krwq: have you looked at what Clojure does? 2017-10-18T07:06:05Z Zhivago: And shared suffixes. 2017-10-18T07:06:31Z SaganMan: Zhivago: what's recursive decomposition? 2017-10-18T07:06:47Z krwq: i think he means calling destructuring-bind recursively 2017-10-18T07:06:48Z jdz: krwq: it basically defines the "seq" protocol, and one can use it on all kinds of things, including lists and vectors and strings. 2017-10-18T07:06:52Z Zhivago: Given (a b c) produce (b c), etc. 2017-10-18T07:07:01Z SaganMan: ohh 2017-10-18T07:07:26Z SaganMan: oh yeah, that's the main feature of cons 2017-10-18T07:07:31Z SaganMan: car and cadr 2017-10-18T07:07:47Z SaganMan: I mean cdr 2017-10-18T07:07:50Z krwq: Zhivago: but you could easily define a sub-vector type which could be used the same way - besides that is mostly used with tail-recursion which is easily optimized 2017-10-18T07:08:52Z Zhivago: Sure, you could support recursively decomposable vectors. 2017-10-18T07:08:56Z krwq: I'm thinking of a list as a plain block of memory and two pointers marking beginning and the end 2017-10-18T07:09:02Z Zhivago: And you can use displayed arrays in CL to do that if you wish. 2017-10-18T07:09:09Z Zhivago: But that brings its own costs. 2017-10-18T07:09:22Z krwq: displayed arrays? 2017-10-18T07:09:23Z Zhivago: er, displaced arrays. 2017-10-18T07:09:25Z krwq: ohh 2017-10-18T07:09:46Z basket: jdz: Well Common Lisp has the SEQUENCE class with all kinds of subclasses, including lists and vectors and strings 2017-10-18T07:09:53Z arquebus quit (Quit: Konversation disconnected) 2017-10-18T07:11:11Z jdz: basket: you cannot use FIRST and REST on strings. 2017-10-18T07:11:33Z krwq: jdz: but that could be implemented technically 2017-10-18T07:11:41Z jdz: Of course it could. 2017-10-18T07:11:48Z jdz: That's what I'm saying. 2017-10-18T07:12:00Z krwq: i think I'll try implementing list with vector and move back to cons-es if it will become annoying 2017-10-18T07:12:53Z jdz: The representation is just implementation details, it's about the Abstract Data Type. 2017-10-18T07:13:03Z jdz: I.e., what functions you use. 2017-10-18T07:13:14Z krwq: that will be quite weird that nil != () but that's just a convention anyway 2017-10-18T07:13:48Z jdz: krwq: how does implementing lists with vectors imly nil != ()? 2017-10-18T07:14:41Z krwq: that will make it much easier - i will have to quirk code all over the place if I implement list with vector and have to assume that empty vector is NIL 2017-10-18T07:15:01Z krwq: same way as #() is not nil 2017-10-18T07:15:06Z beach: krwq: For a compact representation of lists, see the Lisp-machine feature called "CDR coding". 2017-10-18T07:15:08Z jdz: I bet you must have learned about ADTs in your algorithms class? 2017-10-18T07:15:26Z krwq: i didn't study computer science 2017-10-18T07:16:01Z beach: krwq: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDR_coding 2017-10-18T07:16:03Z jdz: Well, when you were doing "a lot of algorithms". 2017-10-18T07:16:20Z krwq: competition 2017-10-18T07:16:50Z krwq: different kinds of tasks (i.e. http://www.spoj.com/) 2017-10-18T07:16:58Z beach: krwq: Lists are much faster for things like adding or removing a single element from the front. 2017-10-18T07:17:30Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:17:50Z krwq: beach: that's true I admit but if a compiler detects that you only do that then it can switch direction of vector 2017-10-18T07:17:55Z chens is now known as Guest51159 2017-10-18T07:18:06Z krwq: besides i can implement other data structures for that like linked list 2017-10-18T07:18:15Z Guest51159 is now known as chens` 2017-10-18T07:18:31Z beach: krwq: A vector won't solve the problem. It would need to be re-allocated from time to time. 2017-10-18T07:18:35Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:18:40Z jdz: Funny how the Wikipedia page on CRD coding links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrolled_linked_list. 2017-10-18T07:18:41Z krwq: queue is the only example where I add in front 2017-10-18T07:19:28Z krwq: but still queue you will do better with unrolled linked list or deque with C++ terms 2017-10-18T07:20:25Z beach: krwq: Different data structures have different performance characteristics. The creators of Common Lisp were very concerned about performance. That is why Common Lisp gives the programmer a choice, as opposed to (say) implementing lists as balanced trees which would be slower for the operations for which lists are particularly fast. 2017-10-18T07:20:35Z krwq: thread safe queue might be the only example where linked list might actually win - or if you do a lot of manipulation in the middle which is quite rare IMO 2017-10-18T07:21:35Z beach: krwq: If you add or remove elements in the middle, you should use neither a list nor a vector. 2017-10-18T07:21:35Z shka_: gosh 2017-10-18T07:21:35Z krwq: beach: memory used to be more expensive when lisp was invented so it made sense back then - right now almost always it is better to have one chunk of memory 2017-10-18T07:22:06Z shka_: i HATE when structure called "LIST" is implemented in complex way 2017-10-18T07:22:07Z chens` is now known as chens 2017-10-18T07:22:16Z beach: shka_: I totally agree. 2017-10-18T07:22:38Z beach: krwq: So you choose the data structure that is adapted to your task. 2017-10-18T07:22:39Z krwq: shka_: vector is a simple way - linked list is weird 2017-10-18T07:22:49Z beach: krwq: Use vectors, if you like. Don't impose that choice on others. 2017-10-18T07:23:06Z shka_: "so, this vector thingy, aren't you sure that in fact it is some radix tree based functional data structure?" 2017-10-18T07:23:23Z shka_: *checking documentation* 2017-10-18T07:23:34Z beach: shka_: Exactly, so we can't predict the performance of individual operations. 2017-10-18T07:23:49Z beach: shka_: Just like we can't predict the performance of adding a single element to a vector. 2017-10-18T07:24:08Z shka_: well, yes, but it is amortized 2017-10-18T07:24:34Z beach: No comfort to the game developer needing real-time performance. 2017-10-18T07:24:47Z krwq: beach: I asked for opinion not trying to impose anything 2017-10-18T07:25:11Z shka_: beach: i assume that game developers know they stuff 2017-10-18T07:25:14Z beach: krwq: You are wrong that vectors are always better than lists. Period. 2017-10-18T07:25:46Z mingus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T07:26:27Z shka_: anyway, anybody want to newbie friendly 2017-10-18T07:26:39Z krwq: beach: I never said they are always better - they are almost always better than linked lists 2017-10-18T07:27:21Z beach: krwq: "almost always" makes no sense. It depends on the use case. You must state it relative to the use case. Besides, what if you are right? Does it mean we should eliminate lists? 2017-10-18T07:27:38Z shka_: got to go 2017-10-18T07:27:46Z shka_: see you all later 2017-10-18T07:27:53Z beach: So long shka_. 2017-10-18T07:28:27Z krwq: see you shka_! beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQs6IC-vgmo 2017-10-18T07:28:50Z jdz: The discussion was actually about empty list being NIL. 2017-10-18T07:29:22Z beach: krwq: Anybody can say anything on YouTube. That video does not in any way show that "vectors are almost always better than linked lists". 2017-10-18T07:29:57Z shka_: krwq: forward lists can be efficient enough immutable short stacks and sequences 2017-10-18T07:30:09Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:30:14Z shka_: this really all boils down to use case 2017-10-18T07:30:32Z jdz: shka_: https://www.xkcd.com/386/ much? 2017-10-18T07:30:36Z beach: krwq: To make such a statement, you would have to look at all programs that use lists, then re-implement them using vectors, count the number of programs that have their performance improved, and if it is greater than half, then you are right. 2017-10-18T07:30:37Z shka_: not everybody operate on huge sequences 2017-10-18T07:30:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:30:51Z shka_: jdz: yes, this 2017-10-18T07:30:59Z shka_: thank you xD 2017-10-18T07:31:47Z shka_: anyway, not everybody operate on sequences with length in thousands 2017-10-18T07:32:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:32:29Z shka_: and some people know what they are doing, so forcing vectors in each throat is quite pointless 2017-10-18T07:33:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-18T07:35:53Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:36:41Z krwq: https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/340797/Number-crunching-Why-you-should-never-ever-EVER-us - the only case where linked list is better is when you have fragmented memory 2017-10-18T07:38:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:38:54Z hajovonta: hi 2017-10-18T07:39:03Z jdz: krwq: the title is wrong. 2017-10-18T07:39:29Z jdz: It should have been "Why you should never, ever, EVER use linked-list in your code again if you program in C++". 2017-10-18T07:40:12Z mxb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:40:12Z postit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:40:12Z arrdem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:40:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:40:29Z hajovonta: the article actually states: "The number crunching prefix is key to this whole article. If the "Number crunching:" part of the title is ignored it might be understood as a general advice to always stay away from linked-list, that is not the purpose of this article. " 2017-10-18T07:40:49Z mxb joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:40:54Z arrdem joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:41:29Z jdz: The choice of programming language and libraries constrains (or at least heavily influences) the data structure, algorithm and general problem solving choice. 2017-10-18T07:42:24Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:43:38Z jdz: krwq: For instance the section(s) about locality of reference completely disregard garbage collection and GC'd language implementations. 2017-10-18T07:44:15Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:47:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:47:54Z krwq: jdz: considering that in almost every benchmark linked list loses I'd rather have linked list as a separate data structure - it's true that we can't tell for sure which one is better without implementing reasonable size lisp program and checking how it performs on both implementations 2017-10-18T07:48:22Z jdz: krwq: that's what everybody has been trying to tell you. 2017-10-18T07:48:33Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:48:38Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:49:42Z beach: krwq: Linked list IS a separate data structure, as jdz points out. 2017-10-18T07:50:22Z hajovonta: but then there is versatility and maintainability and linked list may be advantageous when these are more important than number crunching performance 2017-10-18T07:50:57Z hajovonta: also, stay away from articles where the string "never ever EVER" appears :) 2017-10-18T07:51:04Z hajovonta: in the title 2017-10-18T07:51:23Z jdz: hajovonta: if linked list is not the right data structure, use the one that _is_ right. Where's the problem? 2017-10-18T07:51:42Z hajovonta: I see no problem here 2017-10-18T07:51:48Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T07:52:11Z hajovonta: I often use a linked list when first attacking the problem and then later switch if it becomes a performance problem 2017-10-18T07:54:05Z jdz: Again, I think the original question was about implementing single-linked lists with vectors, and people in this channel argue that that is the wrong thing to do. 2017-10-18T07:54:43Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-18T07:54:57Z osune quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T07:56:01Z hajovonta: okay, I may have missed the beginning of the conversation 2017-10-18T07:56:04Z hajovonta: sorry 2017-10-18T07:59:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:00:08Z EvilAngel joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:04:58Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:05:45Z knobo: Does anyone have any syntax highlighting for *company-documentation* buffer? 2017-10-18T08:06:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:09:35Z osune joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:13:27Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:14:02Z turkja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:14:09Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:14:46Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:18:28Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:22:08Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:25:06Z zotan_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:25:23Z himmAllRight17 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:25:26Z loke` joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:25:42Z aoh__ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:25:49Z davsebam1e joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:26:50Z neuri8- joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:28:10Z mingus joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:28:36Z himmAllRight quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-18T08:28:36Z zotan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:28:36Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:28:37Z aoh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:28:37Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:28:37Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:28:37Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:28:37Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T08:28:38Z zotan_ is now known as zotan 2017-10-18T08:29:02Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:29:50Z xantoz joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:30:03Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:30:58Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:30:58Z bitch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:32:24Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:32:38Z bitch joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:34:59Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:37:11Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:37:51Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:38:59Z nikivi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:42:00Z nikivi joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:45:49Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T08:46:00Z miatomi_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:48:26Z raydeejay quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T08:48:47Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:49:35Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:51:50Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:56:42Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-18T08:57:16Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-18T08:57:47Z osune quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T08:59:46Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-10-18T09:00:26Z ramus joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:00:29Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-18T09:00:57Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:02:17Z miatomi_: anyone know if there's a "newbie friendly" distribution of common lisp? the thing I'm looking at is this: between learning asdf, learning about quickproject, quicklisp, slime, etc. on top of just learning common lisp, there was a lot of friction that I had to go through that might throw some other newbies off. if there was a distribution of sbcl, lets say, that came bundled with quicklisp and automatically installed quickproject with 2017-10-18T09:02:17Z miatomi_: a short tutorial, that would probably take down the TTL (time to learn) for new people a ton, and give them an almost clojure/leiningen like experience 2017-10-18T09:02:44Z Shinmera: https://portacle.github.io 2017-10-18T09:03:28Z pjb: clisp 2017-10-18T09:04:39Z pjb: clisp has a number of features that are newbie friendly: it includes readline, and has a usable debugger, so you can use it in the terminal without slime. 2017-10-18T09:05:27Z pjb: Some care is given to return unsurprising results for newbies. Eg. sort will keep the first and last cons cells in place. 2017-10-18T09:05:55Z pjb: Of course, it is not a good idea to rely on it, but while learning how to program, it is a question that may stay delayed. 2017-10-18T09:06:57Z pjb: clisp also has a number of modules included, so that you can write interesting programs without having to load any quicklisp libraries. 2017-10-18T09:07:34Z pjb: So you can spend a couple of years in clisp, without having to learn slime, asdf, quicklisp, quicklproject, etc. Just pure Common Lisp. 2017-10-18T09:08:00Z pjb: Once you know Common Lisp you can learn emacs and then include slime. And later you can include libraries with asdf and quicklisp. 2017-10-18T09:11:08Z EvilAngel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T09:11:26Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:12:05Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:16:39Z jdz: I dropped clisp back when I found the debugger was actually useless for me, and never looked back. I don't even remember what my problem with clisp was. 2017-10-18T09:17:55Z jdz: Also using lisp without proper environment will only waste time that could be used learning the environment from the start. 2017-10-18T09:18:21Z jdz: Unless the use case is writing (print "Hello, world!") programs. 2017-10-18T09:19:55Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:25:18Z shka: miatomi_: portacle is easy to setup (not sure if "set up" term does apply here), i think CCL is quite good and explains things that happen better then SBCL, i did not use clisp so i don't have opinion on it 2017-10-18T09:28:35Z miatomi_: portacle looks interesting! thanks all for that. I wonder if "learn emacs" might even be too high of an entry, but this looks like it abstracts away the emacs part of it which is nice. 2017-10-18T09:29:27Z Shinmera: it doesn't remove emacs as a learning component, but it at least includes a reference guide that teaches the concepts and important bindings. 2017-10-18T09:29:46Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:32:42Z pjb: jdz: the clisp debugger works only on interpreted code. 2017-10-18T09:33:34Z pjb: miatomi_: emacs has a 1/2 hour tutorial. If that's too high of an entry, what are you doing here? 2017-10-18T09:34:57Z bailon joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:37:35Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:37:44Z miatomi_: pjb: to be clear, I've passed all of these barriers already. but asking a newbie to learn a bespoke text editor to get up and running in their new language is a lot. other lisps have recognized this, take racket for example 2017-10-18T09:38:52Z beach: miatomi_: What are we supposed to do with that information? 2017-10-18T09:39:49Z miatomi_: beach: what do you mean? originally I was asking in order to learn if this is a worthwhile project to take on myself. just wanted to get a sense if there was anything newbie friendly out there. I think portacle qualifies 2017-10-18T09:40:13Z beach: OK. 2017-10-18T09:44:04Z beach: What does the situation look like in industry? Suppose for instance that someone wants to learn C# for Windows. Can they get away with using the editor they are already familiar with? It is not a rhetorical question and it is not meant for miatomi_. I am asking in general because I just don't know. If the answer is "yes", do they then miss out on some features that they could have had if they converted to whatever Microsoft 2017-10-18T09:44:04Z beach: recommends? 2017-10-18T09:44:22Z Shinmera: Most people on Windows use Visual Studio, so yes 2017-10-18T09:44:52Z Shinmera: VS is free nowadays, and it uses the same kinds of keybindings people already know from other software. 2017-10-18T09:45:58Z Shinmera: I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if IntelliJ and Eclipse also support C#. Those are, I believe, the other two "top" IDEs. 2017-10-18T09:46:52Z jackdaniel: monodevelop is another one for C# 2017-10-18T09:47:11Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:47:13Z beach: OK. Thanks. So when people complain about having to learn Emacs, they basically already know one of those, and they all have the same key bindings? 2017-10-18T09:47:18Z Shinmera: Generally if the language in question has enough industry pull most major IDEs are going to include support for it. 2017-10-18T09:47:56Z Shinmera: beach: They diverge in details, but most people complain about copy, cut, paste, undo, redo, open file, save. 2017-10-18T09:48:11Z Shinmera: And those are the same everywhere except Emacs. 2017-10-18T09:48:36Z Shinmera: And you can't really change them in Emacs because the defaults would clash with too many other keybindings. (C-c prefix, for instance) 2017-10-18T09:48:44Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-18T09:49:31Z Shinmera: I've considered the idea of including more standard keybindings in Portacle, but rejected it because it would make getting help harder since I'd have to change too much. 2017-10-18T09:49:52Z beach: That really sucks. I mean, Emacs predates all those, and I think the Emacs bindings are quite well thought out. Frequent operations are short, infrequent ones are long. And it is rare that two key sequences are similar if one is "dangerous". 2017-10-18T09:50:03Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:50:13Z basket: Shinmera: Emacs ships with cua-mode that does that; it's not too much of an issue for clashes because C-x and C-c are only cut and copy when the region is active 2017-10-18T09:50:46Z Shinmera: basket: I'm aware of cua mode, I still don't consider it a good idea, especially because C-c etc are still useful when regions are active. 2017-10-18T09:51:10Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:51:14Z Shinmera: beach: I agree, but there's not really anything we can do at this point. 2017-10-18T09:51:27Z beach: You are absolutely right. 2017-10-18T09:52:58Z scymtym: people's wish to keep working within their respective environments has been recognized in a certain way, though. many IDEs are now basing their support for programming environments on the "language server protocol" which is like a JSON-based, language-agnostic, specified version of the swank protocol 2017-10-18T09:53:41Z basket: Shinmera: Yes, but it does make it much more viable for newbies who just want a Lisp editor with familiar keybindings and see learning Emacs as a hurdle, I think 2017-10-18T09:53:52Z beach: scymtym: That's interesting. Thanks for the information. 2017-10-18T09:54:11Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T09:54:19Z Shinmera: basket: I consider the potential for confusion in the bindings clash too high a risk 2017-10-18T09:54:37Z beach: I agree completely with Shinmera. 2017-10-18T09:55:36Z beach: We have had system administrators who found it a good idea to provide a "standard" startup file for (say) students. The result was that nobody knew exactly what key sequences to use, or what happened when the wrong one was accidentally issued. 2017-10-18T09:58:18Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:58:28Z pjb: miatomi_: I cannot use racket: it is not emacs! :-) 2017-10-18T09:59:12Z pjb: At least Xcode implements the basic emacs control keys, and integrates good enough with an emacs editing workflow… 2017-10-18T09:59:29Z miatomi_: pjb: haha, fair. I love emacs too, I had the advantage of learning it before taking on clisp weirdly. 2017-10-18T09:59:33Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-18T09:59:54Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-10-18T09:59:59Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-10-18T10:03:07Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T10:03:17Z jdz: pjb: not sure it's Xcode specifically, because emacs keybindings work in all text fields on OSX. 2017-10-18T10:03:36Z jdz: I guess it works for macs is because the control key is otherwise unused. 2017-10-18T10:05:09Z jdz: GTK+ also has this option, but it usually conflicts with other keybindings. 2017-10-18T10:07:00Z pjb: jdz: indeed, it's simplemented in NSText. 2017-10-18T10:07:39Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-18T10:10:32Z d4ryus: readline, which is pretty wide spread among shell utilities, also uses Emacs Keybindings (as default, at least) 2017-10-18T10:11:09Z jdz: Yes, and Emacs users usually use them, other people even don't know their command line has undo. 2017-10-18T10:11:38Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-18T10:14:54Z d4ryus: just using the basics since i discovered c-x c-e 2017-10-18T10:16:11Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-18T10:20:14Z miatomi_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T10:25:44Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-10-18T10:31:07Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T10:31:48Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T10:38:21Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T10:38:41Z mingus` joined #lisp 2017-10-18T10:39:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-18T10:41:41Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T10:51:37Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2017-10-18T11:01:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T11:02:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T11:10:02Z _akem joined #lisp 2017-10-18T11:11:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T11:12:04Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T11:12:21Z hontsie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T11:17:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T11:21:59Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T11:27:19Z marvin2 left #lisp 2017-10-18T11:34:54Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-18T11:35:47Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T11:36:04Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-18T11:36:21Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T11:37:27Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T11:46:09Z _akem is now known as akem 2017-10-18T11:47:10Z hajovonta: when my program starts to grow, how do I keep the functions in order so that when loading the file, I don't get warnings like "undefined function" when the function definition comes later in the file? 2017-10-18T11:47:43Z hajovonta: or, maybe a better question can be that how can I easily reorder or at least analyze my file ? 2017-10-18T11:49:29Z Shinmera: You don't need to reorder if you compile-file. 2017-10-18T11:50:01Z Shinmera: So: use ASDF, or slime-compile-and-load-file 2017-10-18T11:50:38Z hajovonta: currently I load the file with a shell command together with sbcl start 2017-10-18T11:50:46Z hajovonta: like sbcl --load whatever.lisp 2017-10-18T11:51:20Z hajovonta: this is because I need it to run in a screen, and then I connect to it via swank server 2017-10-18T11:51:38Z Shinmera: Running in screen and using swank does not necessitate --load 2017-10-18T11:51:46Z hajovonta: so things are further complicated by running screen -S 'sbcl --load whatever' ... 2017-10-18T11:52:29Z hajovonta: I want to load it automatically when sbcl starts 2017-10-18T11:52:56Z hajovonta: if I compile it to fasl, and load that, will I still get warnings? 2017-10-18T11:53:01Z Shinmera: No. 2017-10-18T11:53:24Z Shinmera: Unless of course you do stuff at load time that causes warnings. Function order won't matter, though. 2017-10-18T11:53:45Z hajovonta: I get it 2017-10-18T11:53:59Z hajovonta: thanks! 2017-10-18T12:15:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T12:16:37Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T12:19:13Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T12:21:24Z hajovonta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T12:24:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T12:32:13Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-18T12:43:49Z pillton quit (*.net *.split) 2017-10-18T12:43:49Z hiq[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2017-10-18T12:43:50Z thorondor[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2017-10-18T12:49:16Z Xach: OK!! 2017-10-18T12:49:29Z Xach: I think I have a simpler case that shows the problems I have with uiop-3.3.0 2017-10-18T12:49:55Z Xach: If you put uiop-3.3.0 in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and (ql:quickload "circular-streams"), you can see it loads cffi and babel twice. 2017-10-18T12:50:19Z Xach: (at least, i can see that) 2017-10-18T12:54:39Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-18T12:54:40Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-18T12:55:18Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T12:56:52Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-18T12:57:38Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T12:59:11Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-18T12:59:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:00:59Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:03:22Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:04:12Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:04:34Z bailon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:07:54Z creat joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:08:25Z bailon joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:09:11Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:09:38Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:10:27Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:13:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:15:21Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:17:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:22:37Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:23:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:24:31Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:27:18Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T13:29:00Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:31:11Z Xach waits for the interwebs to solve it 2017-10-18T13:32:02Z Shinmera: Xach: The next step would be to bisect, I suppose. 2017-10-18T13:33:52Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:35:55Z lerax joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:36:28Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T13:37:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:39:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:41:04Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-18T13:41:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:51:21Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:58:31Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T13:59:43Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-18T14:00:17Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:03:06Z TDT joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:04:37Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T14:05:53Z Mandus joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:07:37Z _rumbler31: xach: what do you want solved? 2017-10-18T14:08:08Z Xach: _rumbler31: with uiop 3.3.0 present, things get compiled more than they should 2017-10-18T14:08:16Z _rumbler31: mmm 2017-10-18T14:08:21Z Xach: _rumbler31: once would be good, twice is not good. more than twice is even less good. 2017-10-18T14:08:56Z _rumbler31: :/ 2017-10-18T14:18:29Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:24:45Z Xach: commit 4ed76c32050753c8a4450c342a1592881e11d63d seems to reference constant recompilation 2017-10-18T14:26:05Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T14:26:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:26:34Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:27:41Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T14:32:59Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:34:34Z Fade wonders how Xach's "Month of Sly" went 2017-10-18T14:36:10Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting) 2017-10-18T14:37:29Z tomaw_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:38:32Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T14:39:07Z Xach: Fade: good! though I did not spend as much time writing code with it as i wanted, so i'm going to stick with it more. 2017-10-18T14:40:41Z Fade: Hopefully you get the chance to blog about the experience. :) 2017-10-18T14:42:18Z tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 2017-10-18T14:45:14Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-10-18T14:46:12Z karswell joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:47:26Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:52:42Z S1ohy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-18T14:53:05Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:55:36Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-18T14:57:16Z Xach: yes! 2017-10-18T14:58:41Z borei quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-18T14:59:23Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T15:00:33Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:05:14Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T15:05:48Z SaganMan: hello peeps 2017-10-18T15:06:52Z otwieracz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T15:06:53Z beach is not sure that he is a member of this set. 2017-10-18T15:07:59Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T15:08:41Z Shinmera: Is there a "probabilistic set theory" in math? 2017-10-18T15:08:48Z shka: yes 2017-10-18T15:08:50Z shka: there is 2017-10-18T15:09:43Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:14:31Z lerax left #lisp 2017-10-18T15:15:27Z Kyo91 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:17:50Z S1ohy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-18T15:18:10Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:20:11Z pjb: Shinmera: also, check fuzzy sets. 2017-10-18T15:20:20Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:20:35Z Kyo91 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T15:22:30Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:25:53Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T15:26:41Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T15:28:36Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-18T15:30:21Z hyuman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T15:30:41Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T15:30:53Z S1ohy left #lisp 2017-10-18T15:31:25Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:32:52Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:36:07Z shka: Shinmera: what exactly do you want to do? 2017-10-18T15:36:22Z Shinmera: Make a joke about what beach said but I guess it went over people's heads. 2017-10-18T15:36:48Z azahi joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:36:58Z Bike: my probabilistic joke theory still gets a lot of false negatives 2017-10-18T15:37:19Z shka: Bike 1, Shinmera 0 2017-10-18T15:38:20Z Shinmera: I hope I die before I keep tabs on who "wins" at making jokes 2017-10-18T15:39:07Z Bike: Let me help you out then, it's Bike 4283, Shinmeta 59821. Soon I will overtake you to take my rightful place 2017-10-18T15:39:27Z beach: "Shinmeta" I like that. 2017-10-18T15:39:48Z shka: hahaha 2017-10-18T15:40:24Z Bike: dammit, i think i've made that same typo before 2017-10-18T15:40:40Z Bike: and it sounds like shimoneta, which shinmera doesn't deserve 2017-10-18T15:40:59Z Shinmera: And the lord said: you shalt no longer mistype other's names, for I give you the power of tab completion 2017-10-18T15:41:13Z SaganMan is now known as blackadder 2017-10-18T15:41:54Z lerax joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:42:29Z Shinmera: Bike: Googling that makes me raise at least a couple of eyebrows. 2017-10-18T15:44:09Z azahi quit (Quit: ded) 2017-10-18T15:44:38Z azahi joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:47:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:49:30Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:49:47Z miatomi_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:49:51Z aoh__ is now known as aoh 2017-10-18T15:50:00Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2017-10-18T15:50:00Z aoh joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:50:29Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T15:51:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T15:54:48Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:55:46Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T15:56:00Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:57:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T15:58:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:02:09Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:02:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:02:18Z jmercouris: rm -rf / 2017-10-18T16:02:20Z jmercouris: ah sorry, wrong window 2017-10-18T16:02:35Z beach: Very funny. 2017-10-18T16:02:37Z Josh_2: That's a good idea jmercouris 2017-10-18T16:03:19Z jmercouris: Josh_2: what does the command do? 2017-10-18T16:03:33Z jmercouris: I was told it would make my computer run faster 2017-10-18T16:03:37Z Josh_2: Sure does 2017-10-18T16:04:10Z miatomi__ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:04:38Z papachan: jmercouris try it with sudo 2017-10-18T16:05:18Z jmercouris: you won't believe it, but someone actually got really upset on #python like a year ago when I randomly brought it up 2017-10-18T16:05:33Z jmercouris: they went on a huge rant about how noobies will randomly type it into the terminal and see what happenes 2017-10-18T16:05:45Z Shinmera: I'll believe that someone got upset on the internet in a heartbeat. 2017-10-18T16:05:56Z Josh_2: ^^ 2017-10-18T16:06:12Z jmercouris: When I first installed linux in seventh grade I did something similar, I actually deleted my mounting point 2017-10-18T16:06:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:07:19Z miatomi_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:08:27Z Xach: Don't do things like that in #lisp. 2017-10-18T16:09:17Z jmercouris: Xach: I never suggested anyone try the command, I don't ever give wrong advice (to the best of my knowledge) 2017-10-18T16:09:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:09:44Z Xach: jmercouris: Don't do things like what you just did in #lisp. 2017-10-18T16:10:12Z jmercouris: Xach: Fair enough :) I was just trying to inject a little humor into the day 2017-10-18T16:11:39Z shka: it is very nice of you, but it has some potential to destroy 2017-10-18T16:11:43Z miatomi_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:11:48Z shka: so better not 2017-10-18T16:12:00Z jmercouris: shka: I think we'll be okay, pretty sure most people aren't running root nonstop 2017-10-18T16:12:19Z jmercouris: nor are people mindlessly exec'ing everything post on #lisp 2017-10-18T16:13:51Z shka: this is probabbly true, but still 2017-10-18T16:14:23Z miatomi__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:14:55Z beach: I suspect Xach was pointing out that the subject is off topic. 2017-10-18T16:15:22Z shka: this can be the case 2017-10-18T16:16:49Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:19:07Z Bike: Shinmera: if you remember the mirai worm, the dev named themselves after that show. that's the Real World Connection 2017-10-18T16:22:32Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:23:44Z aeth: It is no longer a functional command because it was a meme so it should warn, at least with the GNU version. There are more dangerous variants, though. 2017-10-18T16:25:01Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:26:21Z S1ohy: Anyone falling for such a silly thing deserves. A learning experience. 2017-10-18T16:26:27Z S1ohy: deserves it* 2017-10-18T16:26:54Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:27:51Z aeth: Someone would probably fall for the equivalent command in CL 2017-10-18T16:28:14Z Xach: It is unacceptable behavior in #lisp. 2017-10-18T16:28:27Z jmercouris: Xach: You haven't really qualified WHY though 2017-10-18T16:28:37Z Shinmera: Hmm yes, punishing curiosity is definitely a good thing and posting something malicious to trick people makes me a good, likeable person. 2017-10-18T16:28:38Z _death: will someone fall for (format t "~{,2F~^ ~}" (loop repeat 5 collect (random 1.0))) ? 2017-10-18T16:29:02Z aeth: It's trolling 2017-10-18T16:29:31Z jmercouris: It's definitely not trolling, I didn't have the intent to rile anybody up or trick anyone, I was just making a joke 2017-10-18T16:30:03Z jmercouris: The joke was that I was running the command somewhere on my system, or on one of my machines 2017-10-18T16:31:03Z jmercouris: I think we can let this one go now, I apologize, for anyone reading this conversation in the future, please do not run the command as it will recursively delete all of your directories given enough permissions to do so 2017-10-18T16:32:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T16:33:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:33:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:33:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T16:34:01Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:34:27Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:34:51Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:36:04Z S1ohy: lol 2017-10-18T16:36:05Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T16:47:42Z pjb: jmercouris: don't worry, it's just that young people are dumb. 2017-10-18T16:49:03Z pjb: When I was young, FORMAT C: was the current joke, nobody never took offense of it. 2017-10-18T16:49:37Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:49:38Z jmercouris: pjb: Thanks :) 2017-10-18T16:50:00Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:51:01Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T16:51:02Z pjb: jmercouris: can you imagine that some people actually drilled into their iPhone 7 to add an audio plug! 2017-10-18T16:53:14Z beach: pjb: Are we ever going to see you at ELS again? 2017-10-18T16:53:19Z jmercouris: Yeah, that one absolutely blew my mind 2017-10-18T16:54:09Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T16:54:10Z pjb: beach: For now, I have no idea. I'm looking for a new job (to pay taxes). I probably will be busy for the next one… 2017-10-18T16:54:21Z beach: :( 2017-10-18T16:54:34Z beach: It would be closer to your home. :) 2017-10-18T16:54:40Z beach: For some value of "home". 2017-10-18T16:54:43Z miatomi_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T16:55:07Z miatomi_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T16:55:16Z pjb: Where will it be? 2017-10-18T16:55:21Z beach: Marbella. 2017-10-18T16:55:26Z beach: You could work for Ravenpack. 2017-10-18T16:55:50Z pjb: I've already worked for Ravenpack. 1.5 months :-) 2017-10-18T16:56:14Z beach: Oh, didn't know. 2017-10-18T16:57:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T16:58:15Z beach: You used to live in Spain, right? Where was that again? 2017-10-18T16:58:38Z pjb: It was in La Manga del Mar Menor, near Cartagena, and then in Valencia. 2017-10-18T16:58:47Z pjb: plus six months in Marbella… 2017-10-18T16:58:47Z beach: Ah, OK. 2017-10-18T16:58:56Z beach: Heh, so you know it. 2017-10-18T16:59:01Z pjb: t 2017-10-18T16:59:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:00:25Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:01:56Z beach: Though, I understand that they are still looking for a program chair. If anyone knows anybody that might accept this important task, please contact a member of the steering committee. 2017-10-18T17:06:05Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T17:11:03Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T17:15:07Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2017-10-18T17:15:17Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:20:21Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:20:30Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T17:21:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:22:16Z shka_: good evening 2017-10-18T17:23:56Z margeas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T17:24:28Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:35:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:41:53Z blackadder quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T17:41:57Z sjl: Shinmera: I didn't have time to do much of anything last night, but maybe I can ask you some stuff today to clarify things in my brain 2017-10-18T17:42:01Z weltung joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:42:23Z sjl: Shinmera: so, the general idea of Harmony is that you have a Mixer that plugs together a bunch of segments 2017-10-18T17:42:42Z sjl: Are Sources and Drains also Segments? 2017-10-18T17:43:05Z Shinmera: Okey 2017-10-18T17:43:24Z Shinmera: A "mixer" is basically just a collection of segments that are run in order when the mixer is run. 2017-10-18T17:43:29Z sjl: right 2017-10-18T17:43:40Z Shinmera: Sources and drains are segments that have no inputs or outputs respectively 2017-10-18T17:43:52Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:45:44Z sjl: one thing I wasn't clear on: are there actual separate buffers between each, or is it just a single buffer that gets operated on by each one in turn? 2017-10-18T17:46:13Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T17:46:38Z Shinmera: buffers are basically just float arrays. you can re-use them or not, but obviously if you have two channels you can't use the same buffer for both. 2017-10-18T17:46:59Z Shinmera: Harmony obscures that detail because it includes a system to automatically handle buffer allocation for you. 2017-10-18T17:47:43Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T17:47:54Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:48:03Z Shinmera: That stuff happens in pipeline.lisp. The actual allocation algorithm is in the Flow library, though. 2017-10-18T17:48:12Z sjl: ok 2017-10-18T17:48:32Z sjl: so, if I were going to make a preloaded-mp3 source 2017-10-18T17:48:35Z Shinmera: I don't think you need to understand it, though. 2017-10-18T17:49:19Z sjl: what I'd probably want to do is use the vanilla mp3 source's (decode ...) to fill a buffer in memory in the initialize-instance :after method on my preloaded source 2017-10-18T17:49:40Z sjl: and then the preloaded source's decode would just memcpy that into the buffer 2017-10-18T17:49:46Z Shinmera: What I think you should do is look at https://github.com/Shirakumo/harmony/blob/master/sources/buffer.lisp and try to make it work with a data array that's initialised with a complete buffer read by cl-mpg123. 2017-10-18T17:50:15Z Shinmera: Then you can share that data array between multiple buffer-sources. 2017-10-18T17:51:37Z sjl: so instead of (play "foo.mp3" :sfx :type 'mp3-source), it would end up being (defparameter *foo* (read-mp3-file-into-buffer "foo.mp3")) ... (play *foo* :sfx :type 'buffer-source) 2017-10-18T17:51:44Z sjl: not with that syntax, but conceptually 2017-10-18T17:52:35Z sjl: probably wouldn't be able to use harmony:play 2017-10-18T17:53:02Z sjl: because that looks like it wants files, and I want to make a buffer-source 2017-10-18T17:54:05Z Shinmera: Yes. 2017-10-18T17:54:09Z Shinmera: That's just a first step 2017-10-18T17:54:18Z Shinmera: once that works we can start thinking about the logistics to make it convenient. 2017-10-18T17:54:42Z Shinmera: Maybe something like making play accept a CFFI pointer or some struct that encapsulates a raw audio array 2017-10-18T17:54:58Z Shinmera: And then change the source interface to include generic versions to decode stuff into such arrays. 2017-10-18T17:55:10Z sjl: What's the deal with https://github.com/Shirakumo/harmony/blob/master/sources/mp3.lisp#L70-L96 then? 2017-10-18T17:55:41Z sjl: is that not what you just described? 2017-10-18T17:55:51Z Shinmera: That was a hasty attempt at making things work as I was pressed for time before a jam. 2017-10-18T17:56:10Z Shinmera: It's not because it ties logic that's part of the decoding and logic that's just part of the buffer together. 2017-10-18T17:56:23Z Shinmera: *that's just part of the source 2017-10-18T17:57:11Z Shinmera: We'll probably want some class that contains a data array, size, encoding, channels, structure, and sample rate, from which actual sources can then be spawned. 2017-10-18T17:57:45Z ryanbw quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-10-18T17:57:52Z sjl: but it not itself a source 2017-10-18T17:57:55Z sjl: like buffer-source 2017-10-18T17:58:06Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-10-18T17:58:28Z Shinmera: Yes. 2017-10-18T17:58:51Z Shinmera: The idea would be that you'd keep this structure around and allocate it ahead of time, whereas sources are used to actually play it back at run time. 2017-10-18T17:59:15Z sjl: are sources not intended to be reused? 2017-10-18T17:59:39Z sjl: well, I guess if you wanted multiple concurrent copies of some audio effect, you'd need to have multiple sources 2017-10-18T17:59:46Z Shinmera: You can, but especially with sfx where you might need to play multiple instances of the same thing simultaneously, that doesn't really work. 2017-10-18T18:00:09Z Shinmera: And just logic-wise it's easier to simply say "hey, play this back" and not have to worry about reusing it if you don't have to. 2017-10-18T18:00:21Z sjl: yeah 2017-10-18T18:00:25Z sjl: brb, meeting 2017-10-18T18:00:36Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T18:00:51Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T18:03:15Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T18:03:39Z weltung_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:04:27Z weltung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T18:04:47Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:19:11Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-18T18:25:25Z hyuman joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:26:37Z hyuman is now known as whoman 2017-10-18T18:27:01Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T18:30:35Z weltung joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:30:46Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:31:12Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T18:31:31Z blackadder joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:31:57Z weltung_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T18:38:18Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:43:21Z sjl: Shinmera: I guess the thing that still feels weird would be the filling of that preloaded buffer, because it would use an mp3-source to fill a buffer which would then be used by sources 2017-10-18T18:43:36Z sjl: or are you thinking there would be some really basic (read-mp3-file-into-buffer ) function 2017-10-18T18:46:46Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:46:55Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T18:47:01Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:47:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:48:01Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T18:48:19Z Shinmera: sjl: The latter is what I suggested 2017-10-18T18:48:25Z sjl: ok 2017-10-18T18:49:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:50:44Z Shinmera: The high-level interface would probably then also get a LOAD function analogous to PLAY that loads to this buffer struct thingy based on the source implementation. 2017-10-18T18:52:12Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:52:47Z Shinmera: While I'm on that, more source types is another obvious improvement area. Especially supporting WAV, OGG, and FLAC would be good. 2017-10-18T18:53:41Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T18:54:08Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:54:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-18T18:56:55Z Shinmera: More filter segments on libmixed would also be nice, particularly high/low-pass filtering, reverb, and distorion. 2017-10-18T19:04:33Z weltung quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T19:05:49Z jmercouris: beach: seems like people are always conflating language with implementation, now that you've made me aware of the difference, I see it everywhere: https://getstream.io/blog/switched-python-go/?a=b 2017-10-18T19:17:47Z bigos: hi, does anyone know how to get a list of children widgets in qtools? 2017-10-18T19:21:06Z Shinmera: bigos: How are the children declared? define-subwidget? 2017-10-18T19:21:43Z bigos: i'll push the code to github and send you the link 2017-10-18T19:21:53Z Shinmera: I don't really have time right now to look at stuff 2017-10-18T19:22:07Z Shinmera: Just googling around for "Qt get children" might help you along 2017-10-18T19:22:14Z Shinmera: Since it's not really a Qtools thing. 2017-10-18T19:22:48Z bigos: https://github.com/bigos/qtools-testdrive/blob/hello-notepad/src/qtools-testdrive.lisp 2017-10-18T19:23:08Z bigos: i'm working on my-open 2017-10-18T19:28:35Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T19:29:03Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-18T19:31:40Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-18T19:32:09Z bigos: i guess i will try another time, i found few c++ examples but i have no clue how to translate them to qtools, i guess it's time to have a break 2017-10-18T19:38:48Z phoe_: "qt get children" sounds like a *really* bad pick-up line when said aloud 2017-10-18T19:39:25Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T19:39:27Z phoe_: bigos: I have some qtools experience that includes translating C++ Qt to CL Qtools, I might be able to help you later on here or #lisp-pl 2017-10-18T19:39:29Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-18T19:40:49Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T19:41:45Z bigos: lisp-pl in 15 minutes, ok? 2017-10-18T19:43:20Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T19:43:29Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-18T19:52:44Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T19:55:55Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-18T19:56:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T19:58:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T19:59:31Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:00:47Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T20:08:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T20:09:01Z jmercouris: What's a good way of declaring an interface in CL? Let's say I have like a superclass "Potato" and then I want child classes to implement "grow" methods, how could I force them to do that? 2017-10-18T20:09:17Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:10:25Z Bicyclidine: defgeneric, don't define a method on potato 2017-10-18T20:10:38Z pjb: jmercouris: check the definterface and defimplementation macros in swank. 2017-10-18T20:11:14Z pjb: (defgeneric foo (x) (:method (x) (error 'subclass-responsibility))) 2017-10-18T20:11:50Z phoe_: jmercouris: DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS from McCLIM 2017-10-18T20:11:58Z phoe_: beach: Have you written that mail to the McCLIM person? 2017-10-18T20:11:58Z jmercouris: I'd rather not pull in McClim 2017-10-18T20:12:10Z phoe_: jmercouris: it's a single macro 2017-10-18T20:12:11Z pjb: just copy-and-paste the macros you need! 2017-10-18T20:12:16Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Generally you don't force people to do things in CL. Just document it. 2017-10-18T20:12:31Z jmercouris: Well, I'm not forcing others, it is my own code 2017-10-18T20:12:37Z jmercouris: I guess I don't really need to force an interface 2017-10-18T20:12:40Z Shinmera: Same dealio 2017-10-18T20:12:40Z phoe_: it's GPL though, I haven't been able to contact the maintainer to relicense it elsewhere 2017-10-18T20:12:47Z phoe_: s/elsewhere/elsehow/ 2017-10-18T20:13:27Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: pjb: thank you guys for your help, I'll either copy the macro into my code or just not use interfaces 2017-10-18T20:13:31Z jmercouris: I guess they aren't really necessary 2017-10-18T20:13:50Z Shinmera: If you want to check whether you didn't forget to implement methods, you could build a little tool that traverses the class hierarchy and checks whether your applicable generic functions do have a method that specialises on each class. 2017-10-18T20:13:53Z jmercouris: maybe this is an X-Y problem, let me describe what I'm actually trying to do, and you can tell me whether you think my approach is sound 2017-10-18T20:13:59Z phoe_: Shinmera: I'd like that actually 2017-10-18T20:14:13Z phoe_: That sounds like a tool that contract programming could benefit from 2017-10-18T20:14:53Z Shinmera: Well it's not hard to write, so go nuts I guess? 2017-10-18T20:14:57Z jmercouris: Alright, so I have some graphical view, and I want to implement two different backends, because I want 99% of my code to be agnostic to the different graphical backends, I want to create an interface with some expected behavior, that way I can make a change to the "core" of the program, and know that it will work with both interfaces 2017-10-18T20:15:07Z phoe_: Shinmera: gaaaah, I am already backlogged to hell 2017-10-18T20:15:15Z Shinmera: Well, same. 2017-10-18T20:15:17Z phoe_: jmercouris: this sounds exactly like the use case for DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS 2017-10-18T20:15:53Z jmercouris: Hmm, all I'm getting is swift code, do you have a link I can see? 2017-10-18T20:16:26Z pjb: add mcclim in your search. 2017-10-18T20:17:06Z phoe_: jmercouris: one second 2017-10-18T20:17:34Z phoe_: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/blob/b3546424f68ccc72c762ccb8be16400768ad2479/Core/clim-basic/protocol-classes.lisp#L24 2017-10-18T20:17:53Z phoe_: as again, warning because it's GPLv2 2017-10-18T20:18:24Z jmercouris: Hmm yeah, that seems to be a problem for me 2017-10-18T20:18:27Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T20:18:29Z jmercouris: I have a BSD License project 2017-10-18T20:18:34Z phoe_: beach: ^ 2017-10-18T20:18:48Z phoe_: jmercouris: I've mailed the author if he can relicense that code, maybe we'll get him to respond. 2017-10-18T20:20:06Z jmercouris: phoe_: http://gplv3.fsf.org/wiki/index.php/Compatible_licenses#GPLv2-compatible_licenses 2017-10-18T20:20:12Z jmercouris: phoe_: hopefully yeah 2017-10-18T20:20:23Z jmercouris: Until then I guess I'll just have no interface, I'll have to trust myself :P 2017-10-18T20:22:17Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:22:38Z phoe_: no interface? what do you mean? 2017-10-18T20:22:52Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:23:08Z phoe_: pulling GPLv2 code into your repo means that your code is now GPLv2-licensed 2017-10-18T20:23:17Z phoe_: it's not LGPL where you can use LLGPL as a clarification 2017-10-18T20:23:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:23:42Z phoe_: it's full GPLv2, so even using this code as a library in your code counts as being infected with stallmanovirus 2017-10-18T20:24:01Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T20:24:58Z jmercouris: phoe_: that's what I'm saying, I can't pull it into my code, I refuse that license 2017-10-18T20:26:12Z mingus`` joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:27:31Z phoe_: jmercouris: which is why I mailed the author to relicense it 2017-10-18T20:27:51Z phoe_: in the worst case, I'll just clean-room reimplement that macro based on its specification 2017-10-18T20:28:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-18T20:28:49Z mingus` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T20:29:09Z jmercouris: phoe_: Right yeah, we're not in disagreement here, just a misunderstanding 2017-10-18T20:29:15Z phoe_: yep 2017-10-18T20:32:37Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-18T20:33:03Z lerax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T20:36:57Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T20:39:21Z guna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T20:39:41Z pjb: Not necessarily. AFAIK, You could include GPL2 code in a LGPL library, and use this library in a BSD project, as long as the library doesn't contain core functinality of your project, and it may easily be replaced by a BSD library. 2017-10-18T20:40:10Z pjb: GPL3 and AGPL would be more restrictive there… 2017-10-18T20:41:31Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:42:55Z clog joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:43:49Z phoe_: >You could include GPL2 code in a LGPL library 2017-10-18T20:43:52Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:43:53Z phoe_: The LGPL library is now GPLv2. 2017-10-18T20:44:43Z phoe_: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/342156/can-i-use-some-gpl-code-in-lgpl-project 2017-10-18T20:46:36Z jackdaniel: can't you cleanly implement this thing if this license obthers you? 2017-10-18T20:46:45Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:47:01Z jackdaniel: it is lgpl2, not gpl2 2017-10-18T20:48:13Z jackdaniel: also saying, that pulling gplv2 to repository makes your code have same license is bs, it just means, that derived work is gplv2 - you still may copy your bsd code from the core library to other bsd project without any implications 2017-10-18T20:49:30Z phoe_: lgpl2? 2017-10-18T20:49:40Z jackdaniel: library general public license version 2 2017-10-18T20:49:47Z guna joined #lisp 2017-10-18T20:49:58Z jackdaniel: (or any later version – to be more specific) 2017-10-18T20:49:58Z phoe_: gah, correct 2017-10-18T20:50:02Z phoe_: LGPL2+ 2017-10-18T20:50:13Z phoe_: which is less viral, but still not BSD 2017-10-18T20:52:19Z jackdaniel: I would appreciate (if you really dislike LGPL2+) not linking McCLIM project with a disclaimer, that it is a virus or as being infected by something, it is rude and belittles work of many people 2017-10-18T20:52:49Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T20:54:18Z S1ohy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T20:55:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T20:59:15Z phoe_: I really like and enjoy (L)GPL 2/3 and use it in my own projects 2017-10-18T20:59:53Z phoe_: but it is a viral license, as https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/vaccination.en.html itself states 2017-10-18T21:02:10Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-18T21:05:54Z azahi quit (Quit: ded) 2017-10-18T21:06:52Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-10-18T21:08:19Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-18T21:08:45Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-18T21:10:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-18T21:13:28Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T21:19:14Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-18T21:19:27Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T21:19:46Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T21:20:01Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-18T21:24:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T21:29:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T21:52:43Z TDT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-18T21:57:08Z hrehf joined #lisp 2017-10-18T21:59:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T22:05:59Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:09:01Z hrehf: I'm trying to implement read, as elegantly as possible. So far my only axiom/invariant/hard-coded rule is that everything that is not matched is returned as a symbol when (actually before) the next match is returned. This allows to implement everything else as a reader macro, however it does NOT easily cover rules like "whitespace before numbers" 2017-10-18T22:09:15Z hrehf: what are the minimal hard-coded rules for the reader? 2017-10-18T22:18:09Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:19:27Z pjb: hrehf: this channel is concerned by Common Lisp only. The specification of Common Lisp contains ONLY ONE algorithm. This is the reader algorithm. 2017-10-18T22:19:41Z pjb: hrehf: so go read Chapter 2 of CLHS… 2017-10-18T22:21:23Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:22:29Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:22:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-18T22:24:33Z karswell_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:24:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T22:24:56Z hrehf: :/ ;-) 2017-10-18T22:25:20Z Xach: hrehf: the real CL reader? 2017-10-18T22:27:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:27:37Z Xach: hrehf: the algorithm is specified in http://l1sp.org/cl/2.2 2017-10-18T22:34:21Z hrehf: Xach: thanks, gonna check it out 2017-10-18T22:38:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:43:37Z _akem joined #lisp 2017-10-18T22:45:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-18T22:45:57Z akem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:48:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T22:51:57Z miatomi_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:52:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T22:55:17Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:00:46Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/358990 -- requires ABCL knowledge 2017-10-18T23:00:51Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:01:27Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:04:56Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:05:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:05:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:06:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:06:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:06:39Z hrehf quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:09:06Z sveit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:10:57Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:12:23Z sveit joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:15:55Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:18:51Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T23:19:16Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:20:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:22:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:24:18Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:25:39Z fnord_ joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:28:40Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:35:35Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:37:07Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:39:17Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-18T23:44:10Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:46:18Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-18T23:52:14Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-18T23:52:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:54:33Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-18T23:54:53Z fnord_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:56:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:56:17Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-18T23:59:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:03:27Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-19T00:08:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:12:35Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:13:02Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:14:11Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:15:01Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:16:34Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-19T00:17:00Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:20:41Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:24:49Z dvu__ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:24:50Z MightyJoe is now known as cyraxjoe 2017-10-19T00:24:59Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:27:20Z wallyduchamp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:30:34Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-19T00:34:41Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:37:25Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-19T00:37:44Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:41:50Z akem__ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T00:44:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:45:51Z _akem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T00:47:30Z MrBusiness quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - 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We've figured out how to use profiling and flame graphs to identify what is taking time. 2017-10-19T04:27:44Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/5cXnXrP.png 2017-10-19T04:28:00Z drmeister: This is what you get from allocating CLOS objects in a loop. 2017-10-19T04:28:58Z drmeister: For instance - from this it's easy to see that initialization is taking more time than allocation. 2017-10-19T04:30:04Z drmeister: Common Lisp code and C++ code are all compiled to the same llvm bitcode and on to native code - that lets us profile them together. 2017-10-19T04:33:26Z Zhivago: Very nice. :) 2017-10-19T04:36:59Z azahi joined #lisp 2017-10-19T04:44:21Z iqubic: Tomorrow I turn 17. 2017-10-19T04:44:51Z Zhivago: I congratulate your failure to die so far. 2017-10-19T04:45:57Z iqubic: I am still alive, yes. 2017-10-19T04:46:06Z iqubic: I have thought about death though. 2017-10-19T04:46:10Z iqubic: But I am still alive. 2017-10-19T04:51:50Z Zhivago: Well done. 2017-10-19T04:54:01Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T04:56:38Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-19T04:57:32Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-19T04:57:54Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T04:59:38Z brucem joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:02:11Z azahi left #lisp 2017-10-19T05:04:04Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:11:55Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T05:12:27Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T05:13:25Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:13:56Z CrazyEddy quit (Excess Flood) 2017-10-19T05:15:09Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:15:35Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T05:16:00Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2017-10-19T05:16:00Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:19:06Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:20:09Z emaczen: where are the ABCL logs located? 2017-10-19T05:31:06Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:31:15Z borei: hi all 2017-10-19T05:31:22Z borei: very quicl question 2017-10-19T05:31:27Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:31:34Z borei: how to add to empty list 2017-10-19T05:31:48Z borei: (setf *a* '()) 2017-10-19T05:31:57Z borei: (nconc *a* (list 1 2 3)) 2017-10-19T05:32:02Z emaczen: use push 2017-10-19T05:32:06Z borei: (1 2 3) 2017-10-19T05:32:09Z borei: *a* 2017-10-19T05:32:13Z borei: getting nil 2017-10-19T05:32:34Z emaczen: (setf *a* (nconc *a* (list 1 2 3))) 2017-10-19T05:32:49Z emaczen: push will only add one element to the front of the list 2017-10-19T05:33:10Z paule32: cons 2017-10-19T05:33:11Z borei: wait a sec, nconc modifies list 2017-10-19T05:33:16Z emaczen: for conc nonc reverse nreverse etc... you have to do setf 2017-10-19T05:33:34Z Zhivago: nconc _may_ modify the list. 2017-10-19T05:33:40Z borei: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 2017-10-19T05:33:47Z borei: (defparameter *x* (list 1 2 3)) 2017-10-19T05:33:47Z borei: (nconc *x* (list 4 5 6)) ==> (1 2 3 4 5 6) 2017-10-19T05:33:47Z borei: *x* ==> (1 2 3 4 5 6) 2017-10-19T05:33:59Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:34:23Z Zhivago: But you may note that '() is nil, and nil can't be modified. 2017-10-19T05:34:54Z Zhivago: So you need to write (setf *a* (nonc ...)) 2017-10-19T05:35:07Z borei: Zhivago: yes '() is nil 2017-10-19T05:35:44Z Zhivago: And as nil cannot be modified, (nconc *a* ...) cannot modify the value of *a*, since that value is nil. 2017-10-19T05:36:01Z Zhivago: Thus *a* has the value nil after that call. 2017-10-19T05:37:10Z borei: interesting 2017-10-19T05:37:11Z borei: ok 2017-10-19T05:37:32Z borei: one more general question then 2017-10-19T05:37:38Z Zhivago: PUSH, on the other hand, modifies the variable, not its value. 2017-10-19T05:38:22Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T05:38:24Z borei: what would be best option for collection to accumulate pretty big number of items ? 2017-10-19T05:38:37Z borei: items are single-float and int 2017-10-19T05:38:38Z Zhivago: It depends on what you want to do with it afterward. 2017-10-19T05:40:01Z borei: after that just linear access to dump to another memory 2017-10-19T05:40:27Z borei: to another collection 2017-10-19T05:40:29Z Zhivago: Do you know how many of these you expect to collect in advance? 2017-10-19T05:40:45Z borei: technically yes, i can calcualte 2017-10-19T05:40:50Z Zhivago: And that sounds pretty pointless -- why don't you just put it in the other collection to start with? 2017-10-19T05:42:13Z borei: another collection is gl:array, and the first place where im generating first collection has no idea about gl: at all 2017-10-19T05:43:04Z Zhivago: Why not bridge the gap with some kind of emitter that understand both ends? 2017-10-19T05:43:27Z borei: don't know yet 2017-10-19T05:43:37Z Zhivago: Instead of building a collection, pass a function which can be called with each value. 2017-10-19T05:43:48Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:43:59Z Zhivago: Then have the receiver construct a suitable function to put the value where it needs to go. 2017-10-19T05:44:21Z Zhivago: Now the producer and consumer are decoupled by the function. 2017-10-19T05:45:09Z borei: not sure yet 2017-10-19T05:45:26Z blackadder is now known as SaganMan 2017-10-19T05:45:34Z Zhivago: (iterate-wombles (lambda (womble) (put-in-cement-mixer womble)) 2017-10-19T05:45:37Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T05:45:47Z borei: :-) 2017-10-19T05:45:54Z Zhivago: Well, it's probably time to think about it since it would make your current problem evaporate. 2017-10-19T05:46:17Z borei: very possible 2017-10-19T05:46:36Z borei: im just trying to construct data pipeline at first approach 2017-10-19T05:48:15Z borei: but the problem with "empty list" initialization is much more fundamental 2017-10-19T05:48:40Z borei: thanks for headsup ! 2017-10-19T05:49:20Z Zhivago: Then I suggest using pipes rather than collections. 2017-10-19T05:52:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:55:05Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T05:55:12Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:58:23Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-19T05:59:30Z borei: Zhivago: i'll try to catch you tomorrow, wanted to chat a bit about pipes, about to run now 2017-10-19T05:59:41Z basket quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:03:16Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-19T06:06:03Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:10:15Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-19T06:13:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T06:16:55Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-19T06:21:06Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T06:21:51Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:22:35Z akem__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:25:09Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-19T06:29:20Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-19T06:32:41Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T06:32:47Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-19T06:34:32Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:35:40Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-19T06:36:01Z jameser_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:36:43Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:43:12Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-19T06:43:29Z Bock is now known as LocaMocha 2017-10-19T06:47:13Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-19T06:53:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T06:54:32Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T06:54:36Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:01:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:02:23Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T07:04:35Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T07:12:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:15:59Z chens quit (Quit: leave) 2017-10-19T07:17:23Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:19:44Z beach: phoe_: I completely forgot. I'll try to do it today. 2017-10-19T07:24:55Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:34:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T07:37:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:52:04Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-19T07:55:05Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:57:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-19T07:58:53Z jameser quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-19T07:59:38Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-19T08:00:56Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:01:00Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-19T08:04:54Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:06:21Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:18:52Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:21:05Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:23:36Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-19T08:24:29Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:32:20Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:38:03Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:39:57Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-19T08:42:08Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T08:43:24Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T08:44:48Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T08:49:18Z beach: phoe_: Mail sent. 2017-10-19T08:55:32Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T09:01:51Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:03:14Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T09:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T09:06:10Z anticrisis quit (Quit: sleep is overrated) 2017-10-19T09:16:23Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:28:57Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:30:13Z akem joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:36:11Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-19T09:37:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T09:39:34Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:40:13Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:41:03Z hrehf joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:46:07Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:48:07Z hlavaty: hi, ist there a way to make file-length work on custom gray stream? 2017-10-19T09:48:42Z hlavaty: could be limited to sbcl and ccl 2017-10-19T09:50:56Z k_89 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:51:23Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-19T09:57:46Z lieven: setf stream-file-position to :end and see if file-position returns a number instead of :end 2017-10-19T09:59:27Z hlavaty: lieven: yeah, but then i need to implement seeking 2017-10-19T09:59:53Z manny8888_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T10:00:14Z hlavaty: i am adding streaming version to zip inflate and it would be very handy, if file-length worked out of the box 2017-10-19T10:02:34Z lieven: file-length isn't part of the gray stream protocol IIRC 2017-10-19T10:03:25Z hlavaty: i know, normally i avoid the whole common lisp idea of streams 2017-10-19T10:03:48Z lieven: anyhow, with text files you get into the octets versus characters encoding problems anyway 2017-10-19T10:04:07Z hlavaty: i am after octet files 2017-10-19T10:04:19Z lieven: let alone the non posix filesystems that were around when the spec was finalized 2017-10-19T10:05:04Z lieven: on some systems even determining octet size was a O(n) operation 2017-10-19T10:05:16Z hlavaty: i don't care about that 2017-10-19T10:05:23Z nast quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T10:05:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-19T10:05:42Z lieven: add a mystream-file-length to your API and call it quits :) 2017-10-19T10:16:47Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-19T10:16:53Z clog joined #lisp 2017-10-19T10:19:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T10:37:43Z beach: phoe_: Got an answer from moore33. 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2017-10-19T17:14:53Z jmercouris: any difference between (require "something") and (require :something) ? Why is it done sometimes one way and sometimes another? 2017-10-19T17:15:00Z jmercouris: is :something a macro? 2017-10-19T17:15:14Z shka_: good evening everyone! 2017-10-19T17:15:22Z jmercouris: shka_: good evening 2017-10-19T17:15:38Z phoe_: jmercouris: yes 2017-10-19T17:15:40Z phoe_: it's LLGPL now 2017-10-19T17:16:48Z jmercouris: Nice! 2017-10-19T17:17:02Z Josh_2: Chapter 6 of On Lisp is pretty awesome imo, do people use this sort of programming style often in CL? 2017-10-19T17:17:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:18:32Z basket: Josh_2: What's chapter 6 about? 2017-10-19T17:18:34Z mfiano: Can you be more specific? 2017-10-19T17:19:11Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T17:19:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-19T17:20:09Z Josh_2: It's "Functions as Representation" using Closures as data structures 2017-10-19T17:20:28Z Josh_2: The 20 questions example 2017-10-19T17:20:37Z mfiano: Closures are a good way to queue function evaluation, so make good hybrid data structures for sure. 2017-10-19T17:20:40Z mfiano: I use this often anyway 2017-10-19T17:21:02Z Bike: if i want actual accessors i use classes. 2017-10-19T17:21:16Z Josh_2: It says at the end that it "requires some unconventional thinking" that's for sure. 2017-10-19T17:22:23Z Josh_2: I think that style or programming is awesome, kinda strange to get my head around though. 2017-10-19T17:28:41Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-19T17:30:12Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-19T17:40:15Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:34Z happy_gnu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:52Z trigt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:53Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:53Z dahs81[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:53Z l04m33[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:57Z CharlieBrown quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:57Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:57Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:58Z equalunique[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:43:58Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:44:03Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:44:05Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:44:05Z astronavt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:44:10Z emaczen: How would I add a keyboard interrupt to stop program execution? Some kind of handle/condition code I assume? 2017-10-19T17:44:24Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:44:26Z dirb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:44:38Z phoe_: emaczen: implementation-dependent 2017-10-19T17:44:57Z phoe_: https://github.com/guicho271828/trivial-signal 2017-10-19T17:46:27Z guna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:47:21Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T17:48:50Z guna joined #lisp 2017-10-19T17:49:14Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-19T17:50:13Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-19T17:54:14Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-19T17:59:41Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-10-19T18:03:20Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-19T18:05:18Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-19T18:14:36Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T18:26:38Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T18:30:45Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T18:31:23Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T18:42:15Z S1ohy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T18:45:52Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T18:54:13Z rumbler31: emaczen: I call (listen on standard-input 2017-10-19T18:56:36Z phoe_: rumbler31: that does not work in case of buffered IO 2017-10-19T18:58:23Z rumbler31: in my case I don't particularly care when the input character arrives. I suppose that means that I might need to hit enter in my terminal 2017-10-19T18:58:37Z rumbler31: but yes, buffered io may foil you here 2017-10-19T18:58:48Z oleo: evening 2017-10-19T19:05:41Z shrdlu68: |3b|: Are the author of clws? 2017-10-19T19:12:32Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-19T19:17:52Z k_89 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-19T19:19:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T19:24:51Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T19:29:08Z EvW2 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T19:31:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T19:31:30Z EvW2 is now known as EvW 2017-10-19T19:35:33Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-19T19:42:46Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-19T19:44:48Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T19:46:42Z S1ohy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T19:59:36Z Timzi quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-10-19T20:01:26Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T20:01:53Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:02:59Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:03:33Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:03:58Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:04:20Z hrehf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T20:05:57Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-19T20:06:32Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T20:10:35Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T20:11:27Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:18:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:19:52Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-19T20:20:05Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:22:27Z Rawriful quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-19T20:22:45Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:23:39Z Xach: OK! 2017-10-19T20:23:49Z Xach: I have the start of some runtime testing in Quicklisp dist construction. 2017-10-19T20:25:23Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T20:28:44Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-19T20:34:33Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-19T20:41:23Z dim: I think I just optimized the qmynd driver *a lot* (looks like twice as fast with my current test case) 2017-10-19T20:41:39Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:44:26Z Xach: nice 2017-10-19T20:45:29Z dim: well... 2017-10-19T20:45:53Z dim: that's also because qmynd is so bad that I can pull off such an optimisation 2017-10-19T20:46:32Z dim: I'm too worried about protocol support and edge cases to switch to another MySQL driver tho :( 2017-10-19T20:48:26Z Xach: heh 2017-10-19T20:48:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:48:34Z Xach: there's nowhere to go but up! 2017-10-19T20:48:37Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-19T20:49:33Z dim: hehe 2017-10-19T20:49:34Z dim: (declare (type (simple-array (or nil simple-string) *) row)) 2017-10-19T20:49:40Z dim: is such a declare useful? 2017-10-19T20:50:21Z Xach: That seems like it may be too complex to help, but I don't know. 2017-10-19T20:50:36Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T20:50:59Z Bike: if the compiler's smart enough, it can understand that the result of (aref row ...) will be of type (or nil simple-string), which could help 2017-10-19T20:51:10Z Bike: i think sbcl can do that? not sure 2017-10-19T20:51:40Z dim: sbcl sure doesn't like being fed a nil when expecting a simple-string, anyways 2017-10-19T20:56:59Z Bike: naturally 2017-10-19T20:58:06Z dim: ccl doesn't care, and I develop using ccl, not that helpful just now 2017-10-19T20:59:35Z Shinmera: dim: I'd expect most implementations to give up when encountering compound types for arrays. 2017-10-19T21:00:02Z dim: I'm down (declare (type simple-array row)) 2017-10-19T21:00:03Z Shinmera: You might have more luck declaring the type on access. 2017-10-19T21:00:12Z dim: but I don't think it's useful, and I'm using svref anyway 2017-10-19T21:05:18Z dim: ok the error was not where I was looking (classic) 2017-10-19T21:05:32Z dim: not as big an improvement when I actually return the dataset :/ 2017-10-19T21:06:51Z k_89 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:06:55Z scymtym: dim: not that nil is the empty type. (or nil simple-string) is just simple-string. did you mean null instead of nil? 2017-10-19T21:07:17Z dim: yeah, that might well be (removed that non-optimisation anyway) 2017-10-19T21:07:37Z emaczen: How do you turn 4 bytes into an integer? 2017-10-19T21:08:27Z Bike: shifts and adds 2017-10-19T21:09:05Z scymtym: dim: also, what sometimes helps is (and (not (array nil 1))) since otherwise the compiler has to entertain the possibility of your "string" being an (array nil 1) 2017-10-19T21:09:40Z emaczen: Bike: (0 14 16 0) --> 4 byte integer? 2017-10-19T21:10:19Z Bike: (+ (* 0 256 256 256) (* 14 256 256) (* 16 256) (* 0)) 2017-10-19T21:10:30Z dim: (logior (ash octet-4 24) (ash octet-3 16) (ash octet-2 8) octet-1) 2017-10-19T21:11:12Z dim: when unsigned, when signed, apply some more magic 2017-10-19T21:11:17Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:11:17Z scymtym: emaczen: if the octets are in an (array (unsigned-byte 8) 1), the nibbles library has all the integer conversions, otherwise what bike says 2017-10-19T21:13:09Z emaczen: Bike: Ok, I remember now -- how did you know it was in hex? 2017-10-19T21:13:31Z Bike: how did i know what was in hex 2017-10-19T21:14:34Z basket: emaczen: (loop with n = 0 for i from 0 for byte across bytes do (setf (ldb byte 8 (* i 8)) byte) finally (return n)) 2017-10-19T21:14:50Z basket: er, (ldb (byte 8 (* i 8)) n) 2017-10-19T21:16:16Z emaczen: Bike: nvm the hex, it looks like your arithmetic is a base 256 number? 2017-10-19T21:16:41Z grumble quit (Quit: grumble) 2017-10-19T21:16:52Z Bike: you said you had four bytes 2017-10-19T21:17:09Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:18:05Z Bike: if you had two bytes, and wanted to make a two byte number out of them, you would take 256 times the high byte, plus the low byte 2017-10-19T21:18:31Z Bike: on a computer you might do the "256 times" with a shift or unaligned load, but it's all the same principle 2017-10-19T21:19:19Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:21:47Z akem: why does emacs have such weird defaults? like paren matching delay, who the hell wants a delay for that?? 2017-10-19T21:22:05Z Josh_2: I don't get a delay for paren matching 2017-10-19T21:22:09Z Shinmera: It might slow the editor down is why 2017-10-19T21:22:12Z basket: akem: What delay do you mean? 2017-10-19T21:23:04Z akem: when I move the cursor over a ), the corresponding ( lights up, but only after a few annoying miliseconds. I've tried to turn it off but no luck so far 2017-10-19T21:23:26Z Shinmera: With stuff like company the delay is actually necessary because it really slows your editor down to a crawl otherwise. 2017-10-19T21:24:01Z akem: company? I'm totally new to emacs 2017-10-19T21:24:11Z Shinmera: It's an auto-completion and help kinda thingy. 2017-10-19T21:24:15Z akem: I tried (setq show-paren-delay 0) 2017-10-19T21:24:17Z akem: ah ok 2017-10-19T21:24:47Z Shinmera: Can pop you up a small buffer with suggestions. Slow as balls though with a lot of symbols. 2017-10-19T21:25:00Z Shinmera: Which is a real shame because the delay makes it really annoying too, and other IDEs don't have that much of an issue with that kind of thing. 2017-10-19T21:25:10Z akem: think I'm gonna try that, I miss tab completion 2017-10-19T21:25:21Z Shinmera: You can get tab completion with just slime 2017-10-19T21:25:45Z Shinmera: Typically bound to M-TAB, I believe. 2017-10-19T21:25:51Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:26:19Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2017-10-19T21:26:34Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:26:44Z basket: You can also run it as C-M-i in case your wm eats M-TAB 2017-10-19T21:27:21Z akem: ah yes, I get a buffer of suggestions. is it possible to have it replace the word at the cursor, cycling through the suggestions directly? 2017-10-19T21:28:12Z emaczen: how can I read bits? Or is that inefficient? 2017-10-19T21:28:14Z Shinmera: Not with what slime offers, as far as I'm aware. 2017-10-19T21:28:38Z akem: alright 2017-10-19T21:29:05Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:29:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:29:17Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:29:44Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-19T21:30:45Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:32:21Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:32:24Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-19T21:35:29Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:35:29Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:35:54Z msb joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:36:29Z emaczen: Bike: Thanks, I understand it now 2017-10-19T21:37:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:42:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:42:47Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:47:52Z k_89 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-19T21:50:25Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T21:50:58Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:52:32Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-19T21:53:39Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:53:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:54:03Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T21:58:47Z karswell_ is now known as karswell 2017-10-19T21:59:36Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:00:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:03:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T22:06:35Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:09:57Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:10:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:12:50Z S1ohy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-19T22:14:00Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z dirb joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z happy_gnu[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z dahs81[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z astronavt[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:25Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:26Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:32Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:33Z trigt[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:14:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T22:15:58Z emaczen: what is the fastest way to read 921600 bytes and store them into an array? 2017-10-19T22:16:20Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-19T22:16:24Z jmercouris: each element of the array is a byte? 2017-10-19T22:16:43Z emaczen: yes, I just did loop and collect with a list and nothing ever returned 2017-10-19T22:17:17Z jmercouris: Where are the bytes originating? 2017-10-19T22:17:41Z emaczen: A socket stream, but it shouldn't be any different than any old stream 2017-10-19T22:20:46Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T22:21:30Z _death: a few minutes ago I had some db row ID 754 and I thought that I must be such a nerd for thinking "ieee floats".. and now it's again confirmed when I'm seeing 921600 and I'm thinking 640x480 24-bit image 2017-10-19T22:21:36Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:21:45Z shrdlu68: I'd use #'read-sequence for conciseness. 2017-10-19T22:22:05Z _death: (24-bpp) 2017-10-19T22:22:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:25:27Z pjb: (let ((a (make-array 9216000 :element-type 'byte))) (read-sequence a input-stream) a) 2017-10-19T22:25:46Z pjb: s/000/00/ 2017-10-19T22:26:19Z pjb: Note: you have to deftype byte first. 2017-10-19T22:26:30Z kolko_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-19T22:27:14Z pjb: With socket streams, you have to ask yourself the question of what happens when the stream stays open and the bytes never arrive. 2017-10-19T22:28:50Z emaczen: pjb: I don't think I'm at that point yet 2017-10-19T22:29:32Z pjb: yes, with network sockets, a lot of things can go wrong… 2017-10-19T22:33:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:33:31Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:34:36Z edgar-rft: hmm, how can one know if one is at the point when the bytes never arrive? 2017-10-19T22:34:54Z emaczen: pjb: for a basic-tcp-stream, can I get its element type? 2017-10-19T22:35:31Z shrdlu68: edgar-rft: Timeout? 2017-10-19T22:35:57Z emaczen: #'stream-element-type says character 2017-10-19T22:37:10Z emaczen: Is this a default or what? 2017-10-19T22:37:33Z shrdlu68: emaczen: Are you using usockets? 2017-10-19T22:37:44Z emaczen: I'm using ccl:make-socket 2017-10-19T22:37:53Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-19T22:40:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:41:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T22:41:51Z pjb: emaczen: character is bad for a network protocol! 2017-10-19T22:42:32Z pjb: All the network protocols are binary protocols, even when their records are separated with CR-LF and their fields are filed with ASCII codes. 2017-10-19T22:43:02Z pjb: So, instead, try to open that socket with :element-type 'octet with (deftype octet () `(unsigned-byte 8)) 2017-10-19T22:43:24Z emaczen: pjb: so it is a default... 2017-10-19T22:43:52Z emaczen: this is a client socket 2017-10-19T22:44:45Z pjb: You have to deal with encodings! 2017-10-19T22:45:21Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:45:33Z emaczen: pjb: how do you know to use an unsigned byte 8? 2017-10-19T22:45:37Z emaczen: why not 4? 2017-10-19T22:45:43Z shrdlu68: emaczen: Stream sockets support both character and binary I/O, according to the ccl docs. 2017-10-19T22:46:11Z pjb: emaczen: because IP works with 8-bit bytes. 2017-10-19T22:46:47Z pjb: emaczen: with IP, you don't get to choose the order of the bits in 8-bit bytes, but you get to choose the order of the octets in the packets. 2017-10-19T22:48:46Z emaczen: Alright, I'll give it a shot 2017-10-19T22:48:58Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-19T22:49:04Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-19T22:58:41Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-19T23:01:08Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:01:39Z aeth: alexandria has a read-stream-content-into-byte-vector (and read-file-into-byte-vector, which uses this) 2017-10-19T23:02:03Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:04:53Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T23:05:12Z aeth: I use it (through read-file-into-byte-vector) to read 81204 bytes with no problem, but that's 10x less so if it's O(n!) or something for some reason it won't work for you. 2017-10-19T23:05:42Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T23:05:52Z aeth: s/reason it/reason, then/ 2017-10-19T23:05:56Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:06:00Z aeth: s/reason, then/reason, then it/ 2017-10-19T23:07:59Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:15:22Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:16:39Z megalography left #lisp 2017-10-19T23:23:41Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-19T23:25:22Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-19T23:26:14Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:32:26Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-19T23:32:39Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:47:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-19T23:49:07Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:51:36Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:53:00Z asarch: I am very noob and I was wondering about a good book to learn to program in object-oriented with Lisp 2017-10-19T23:56:50Z pjb: http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20books http://www.cliki.net/Online%20tutorial 2017-10-19T23:56:51Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-19T23:57:07Z pjb: Perhaps http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jeff/clos-guide.html will do? 2017-10-19T23:57:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-19T23:58:10Z asarch: Currently, I am using "COMMON LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" from David S. Touretzky to learn Lisp 2017-10-19T23:58:14Z pjb: or http://web.archive.org/web/20040604041639/pages.stern.nyu.edu/~sslade/lisp/ 2017-10-19T23:58:25Z asarch: Thank you pjb 2017-10-19T23:58:29Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-10-19T23:59:25Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T00:00:41Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:03:10Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T00:05:31Z jfrancis joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:05:31Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:05:46Z king_idiot quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-20T00:05:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T00:11:33Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-20T00:14:59Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-20T00:17:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:21:21Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T00:21:51Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T00:31:01Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T00:31:37Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:32:31Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T00:32:59Z crashtestdummy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T00:33:07Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T00:35:55Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:36:17Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T00:40:20Z himmAllRight17 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T00:41:18Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:44:35Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T00:45:02Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T00:47:19Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:48:05Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T00:48:06Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-20T00:50:18Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:50:51Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:51:36Z manny8888_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:52:10Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T00:54:21Z jack_rabbit quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-10-20T00:58:29Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-20T00:58:37Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-20T01:05:19Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-20T01:07:09Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:11:48Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:17:03Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:20:14Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T01:20:56Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:23:01Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:26:53Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:36:37Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-20T01:36:40Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:37:02Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T01:37:11Z snits quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-20T01:37:32Z snits joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:44:18Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:44:36Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:47:43Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T01:49:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:51:48Z live__ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:52:02Z live__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T01:52:10Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T01:52:55Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:54:14Z chu quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-20T01:55:38Z chu joined #lisp 2017-10-20T01:56:39Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-20T01:57:05Z dieggsy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T02:16:47Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T02:29:38Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-20T02:34:44Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 56.0/20171003100843]) 2017-10-20T02:35:05Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T02:40:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T02:51:22Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-10-20T02:51:23Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T02:51:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T02:54:05Z trn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T02:54:45Z jealousmonk quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-20T02:56:17Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:02:50Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:03:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-20T03:06:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:12:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:14:14Z trn joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:19:00Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:26:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:27:38Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:27:44Z jmercouris: Good morning! 2017-10-20T03:28:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:31:25Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-20T03:32:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:32:50Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T03:34:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:36:17Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:38:17Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:38:27Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-20T03:42:53Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:47:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T03:51:02Z vutral joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:51:21Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-10-20T03:51:47Z Fare: Xach: still here? I saw your blog post about issues with uiop 3.3.0 2017-10-20T03:52:03Z Fare: what is weird is that uiop.asd hasn't changed since uiop 3.2.0 2017-10-20T03:52:15Z Fare: what version of asdf are you using? 2017-10-20T03:52:44Z Fare: how come you did not experience the same issues with earlier versions of uiop? 2017-10-20T03:53:03Z Fare: or did you then have an asdf more recent than those earlier versions of uiop, say asdf 3.2.1? 2017-10-20T03:53:19Z Fare: and does the problem still happen with asdf 3.3.0 ? 2017-10-20T03:55:05Z vutral: is there a simple way to expose a lisp interpreter by tcp ? 2017-10-20T03:56:28Z Zhivago: You could have an account which ran the interpreter as its shell. This would allow access via telnet or ssp. It would be simple, but perhaps unwise. 2017-10-20T03:56:46Z vutral: i just thought about the same thing ^^ 2017-10-20T03:57:07Z vutral: but it doesnt allow multiple connections to the same interpreter 2017-10-20T03:57:23Z vutral: so its not exactly what i want 2017-10-20T03:57:28Z turkja: or maybe play with things like socat? but i don't know how well these things work readline etc. 2017-10-20T03:58:02Z vutral: i could imagine socat can do it 2017-10-20T03:58:20Z beach: vutral: Why does it have to be an interpreter. Are you particularly attached to bad performance? Also, insisting that it is an interpreter will limit the number of Common Lisp implementations available to you. 2017-10-20T03:59:15Z Zhivago: vutral: Why do you want the interpreter to be shared between connections? 2017-10-20T03:59:57Z vutral: Zhivago, to access it from other programming languages 2017-10-20T04:00:54Z vutral: i guess i should write some kind of tcp server in lisp which evaluates input and returns the result 2017-10-20T04:01:02Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:01:08Z vutral: then i am not limited in lisp implementation 2017-10-20T04:01:40Z Zhivago: Are you perhaps looking for some kind of RPC inteface? 2017-10-20T04:02:03Z vutral: that would work too 2017-10-20T04:02:30Z Zhivago: In that case, I would start by looking at those. 2017-10-20T04:02:45Z Fare: vutral: you can make SLIME servers available on a port available through ssh redirection 2017-10-20T04:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T04:03:10Z vutral: Fare, slime ? 2017-10-20T04:03:28Z Fare: I knew someone who did that in a distributed system --- plenty of slaves listening to orders via SWANK 2017-10-20T04:03:54Z Fare: so you could attach to any individual slave and pass it commands 2017-10-20T04:03:59Z Fare: and/or debug it 2017-10-20T04:04:22Z Fare: of course, don't expose that directly on the internet 2017-10-20T04:04:49Z AndroUser joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:05:12Z jmercouris: Anything connected to the internet is inherently exposing all of its resources, but I agree, take precautions 2017-10-20T04:05:24Z Fare: https://github.com/brown 2017-10-20T04:06:25Z Zhivago: You can always use a vpn without external routing. 2017-10-20T04:13:46Z dvu__ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:15:30Z wallyduchamp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T04:17:46Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-20T04:18:06Z wallyduchamp joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:18:26Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:19:57Z dvu__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T04:22:11Z nixfreak joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:23:09Z nixfreak: Hello I am looking for away to create "hot folders" like a workflow, where I can drop files in a folder and it goes through a workflow 2017-10-20T04:23:27Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T04:23:37Z nixfreak: I haven't found much online so wondering if anyone has any ideas how to do this ? 2017-10-20T04:23:48Z beach: nixfreak: How is that question related to Common Lisp? 2017-10-20T04:24:20Z nixfreak: I would like to use common lisp to create it then plug it in org mode 2017-10-20T04:25:25Z beach: "org mode" as in Emacs? 2017-10-20T04:25:49Z nixfreak: yes 2017-10-20T04:26:00Z nixfreak: if it works 2017-10-20T04:26:08Z beach: How do you plan to plug a Common Lisp program into Emacs Lisp? 2017-10-20T04:26:17Z nixfreak: if not then just a program to create 2017-10-20T04:28:50Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T04:29:26Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-20T04:32:08Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:36:25Z crashtestdummy joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:41:16Z beach: nixfreak: If you are going to make something like that compatible with the underlying operating system, i.e., use OS directories for the folders and OS files for the files, then I suspect you won't get much help from Common Lisp compared to other languages. 2017-10-20T04:42:25Z loke: nixfreak: There are libraries that hook into the file notification infrastructure of your operating system 2017-10-20T04:42:49Z loke: There are a few CL libraries for that, like cl-fsnotify, cl-inotify and inotify 2017-10-20T04:43:05Z loke: Since this meahcnism is different in all different operating systems, I don't knwo which one is the best one. 2017-10-20T04:43:07Z nixfreak: ok thanks for the information 2017-10-20T04:43:23Z loke: I also thing IOLIB has something that can do it. 2017-10-20T04:44:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:45:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-20T04:47:29Z marvin2 left #lisp 2017-10-20T04:54:12Z turkja: hey still about SLIME... i wonder if there are good libraries for python or other language to connect to slime server? 2017-10-20T04:54:30Z turkja: then just send s-expressions over the connection 2017-10-20T04:56:00Z turkja: well i don't know about SLIME protocol, maybe it's simple enough to connect with raw tcp and start throwing expressions? 2017-10-20T04:58:03Z thebardian: any good mailing lists for beginning/intermediate lispers? 2017-10-20T05:00:51Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:01:38Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:01:40Z Zhivago: Are you sure that s-expressions are the right medium for this? 2017-10-20T05:02:13Z Zhivago: Having unrestricted communication is probably not a good idea for purposes of security. 2017-10-20T05:02:20Z turkja: i mean SWANK of course (i should go back to sleep) 2017-10-20T05:03:18Z Zhivago: They also require the caller to be able to print things as expected for that lisp implementation. 2017-10-20T05:03:41Z turkja: i don't know, i didn't see what exactly vutral is trying to do... but to his initial question, i think "socat" can do the job in a dirty way 2017-10-20T05:04:48Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:06:53Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:07:38Z Fare: oh, I misread Xach's blog as meaning there was brokenness and e.g. an infinite loop. But reproducing the bug, I see that's it's the known behavior of asdf < 3.3.0 and has nothing to do with uiop. 2017-10-20T05:09:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-20T05:09:22Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-20T05:09:57Z beach: thebardian: Here is fine, unless your questions become repetitive and trivial. 2017-10-20T05:10:50Z beach: turkja: Xof wrote such a thing for R. 2017-10-20T05:12:04Z thebardian: Got it. Thanks 2017-10-20T05:12:31Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:16:21Z mfiano: Hello all. I found a nasty bug in the fast-io library. I wrote a little test case to reproduce it, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why it occurs. 2017-10-20T05:18:17Z mfiano: This is supposed to behave similarly to cl:read-sequence, except when I read a single byte from a stream, it reports that it read the entire stream's contents. this does not occur when reading from a vector. https://github.com/rpav/fast-io/blob/master/src/io.lisp#L142-L163 2017-10-20T05:19:40Z mfiano: test case: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/c07b07069908ea80a6816fb6862ceffe 2017-10-20T05:19:48Z mfiano: any ideas? 2017-10-20T05:21:21Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-20T05:24:37Z Zhivago: Well, 162 seems pretty damning at a glance. 2017-10-20T05:25:31Z Zhivago: But there's no documentation, so it's not clear what it ought to be doing in the first place. 2017-10-20T05:26:08Z mfiano: indeed. there lies my problem. sad part is this is being used by quite a few projects so i'm surprised it hasn't been detected 2017-10-20T05:26:33Z Fare: maybe use iolib instead? 2017-10-20T05:29:16Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:29:17Z mfiano: I'm using a third party library that uses fast-io, and it doesn't depend on a C library 2017-10-20T05:29:57Z Zhivago: Well, why not fix it to do what you expect, and then submit a patch? 2017-10-20T05:30:20Z mfiano: I have been trying to. I just don't see how to fix it 2017-10-20T05:30:50Z mfiano: Also the author moved away from lisp, so I'd have to become familiar enough with it to fork and maintain it 2017-10-20T05:31:17Z Zhivago: Isn't it just a matter of giving read-sequence in 162 the right end point? 2017-10-20T05:32:14Z mfiano: maybe? 2017-10-20T05:32:29Z Zhivago: Should be an easy theory to test. 2017-10-20T05:32:45Z mfiano: heh, (length (ql:who-depends-on "fast-io")) => 24 2017-10-20T05:34:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T05:34:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:35:40Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:35:44Z Fare: mfiano, you might be the new maintainer.. 2017-10-20T05:37:56Z Zhivago: The position comes with a fancy hat. 2017-10-20T05:41:07Z mfiano: I maintain enough libraries, and if I were to maintain this, I'd rewrite it from scratch. The code is a bit...obtuse 2017-10-20T05:46:52Z megha213 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:51:25Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T05:51:51Z basket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T05:52:12Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-20T05:52:31Z beach: thebardian: Are you just planning to learn Common Lisp for kicks, or do you have any particular projects in mind? 2017-10-20T05:55:14Z megha213_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:00:21Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:00:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:02:26Z megha213_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T06:02:26Z megha213 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T06:02:31Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:03:11Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T06:05:46Z megha213 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:06:12Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-20T06:08:58Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:09:05Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T06:10:31Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:11:49Z Fare: mfiano: this is how maintainers are made: someone who cares enough to complain about some software... https://fare.livejournal.com/149264.html 2017-10-20T06:13:02Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-20T06:14:33Z phoe_: hah, good read 2017-10-20T06:17:21Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T06:17:47Z nika_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-20T06:17:50Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-20T06:18:01Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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However, you probably don't want to be using REQUIRE anyway 2017-10-20T12:52:35Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: there is a difference, because as spec says, they are compared with string= 2017-10-20T12:52:56Z jackdaniel: and :some-package designator is "SOME-PACKAGE", and it is not the same as "some-package" 2017-10-20T12:53:08Z mfiano: this is true 2017-10-20T12:53:14Z jackdaniel: so portable code usually does its best by doing provide on both variants 2017-10-20T12:53:18Z jackdaniel: upcase and downcase 2017-10-20T12:53:21Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T12:53:28Z jackdaniel: but in principle they are not the same 2017-10-20T12:54:53Z dim: or using find-package 2017-10-20T12:55:20Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-20T12:55:32Z dim: mmm, with all uppercase. so what jackdaniel said I guess. 2017-10-20T12:57:59Z jackdaniel: fwiw asdf plugs into implementation machinery when it can, so (require "foo") should be equivalent to (asdf:load-system "foo") - if implementation provides require hooks 2017-10-20T12:58:00Z beach: REQUIRE is not concerned with packages at all, but with "modules". 2017-10-20T12:58:24Z jackdaniel: not sure how much of it is officially supported 2017-10-20T12:58:28Z jackdaniel: by ASDF 2017-10-20T12:58:32Z beach: jmercouris: So using a name like "some-package" is misleading. 2017-10-20T12:58:33Z jackdaniel: Fare: care to comment ↑ 2017-10-20T12:58:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-20T12:58:50Z jackdaniel: ? 2017-10-20T12:58:50Z beach: dim: And find-package is a completely distinct feature. 2017-10-20T13:00:03Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:00:12Z Fare: I suppose jackdaniel meant system, not package 2017-10-20T13:00:30Z beach: I am sure he did. But it was jmercouris who asked the question. 2017-10-20T13:00:44Z jackdaniel: yes, that's what I meant 2017-10-20T13:00:54Z beach: And I am not quite as certain that jmercouris knows the difference. 2017-10-20T13:00:58Z jackdaniel: but used string provided by jmercouris, didn't think about the string content tbh 2017-10-20T13:01:25Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:01:45Z jackdaniel: and I meant module in explanation, because that's what require/provide are about 2017-10-20T13:01:46Z Fare: he's on timeout. 2017-10-20T13:01:58Z beach: Oh well. 2017-10-20T13:02:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:02:47Z Fare: yeah, and CL modules seem to standardize on symbol names, that are upcased, where asdf standardizes on canonical system names, that are downcased. Hence suffering at the interface between the two. 2017-10-20T13:03:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:03:21Z Fare: are there any implementations with case-sensitive modules? 2017-10-20T13:03:24Z jackdaniel: Fare: is ASDF plugging into require machinery officially supported? or it just happens to be implemented? 2017-10-20T13:03:37Z Fare: should asdf support user-defined "modules" with mixed cases? 2017-10-20T13:03:50Z Fare: jackdaniel, that's a great question. 2017-10-20T13:04:23Z Fare: jackdaniel, currently, it seems to be defined for all sizable free software implementations, and only them. 2017-10-20T13:04:24Z jackdaniel: all implementations must support case-sensitive modules, otherwise that would be non-conformant 2017-10-20T13:04:45Z Fare: but I personally think it's a bad idea and a relic of the past, that I would gladly do away with. 2017-10-20T13:04:47Z beach: I agree with jackdaniel. 2017-10-20T13:05:07Z Fare: jackdaniel, they "support" it, but do they actually use it for the modules they provide? 2017-10-20T13:06:06Z Fare: anyway, the issue of asdf (:require blah) dependencies is a big can of worms. 2017-10-20T13:06:45Z jackdaniel: one of the modules ECL provide has: (provide "uiop") (provide "UIOP") 2017-10-20T13:06:49Z jackdaniel: so I'd say yes 2017-10-20T13:06:52Z jackdaniel: ;) 2017-10-20T13:07:08Z Fare: jackdaniel, I should know, I wrote it 2017-10-20T13:08:02Z Fare: in any way, I'd like to discourage use of :require for anything than implementation-provided modules. 2017-10-20T13:08:28Z Fare: and to deprecate use of cl:require for asdf-defined systems. 2017-10-20T13:08:33Z Xach: scymtym: it looks like the UIOP problem does not occur for asdf 3.3.0 and uiop 3.3.0 together, but it does occur for asdf 3.1.5 (sbcl's provided version) and uiop 3.3.0. 2017-10-20T13:08:45Z Xach: scymtym: no problem with asdf 3.1.5 and uiop 3.2.1 2017-10-20T13:11:05Z basket joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:11:42Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:12:35Z megha213 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:12:44Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-20T13:16:41Z manny8888 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:18:21Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:19:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:20:10Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:24:45Z megha213 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:25:51Z scymtym: Fare: Xach: thanks. so upgrading SBCL's bundled ASDF and UIOP to 3.3.0 (as planned) seems like the way to go 2017-10-20T13:26:43Z Fare: Xach: doesn't it occur for asdf 3.1.5 and uiop 3.2.1 ??? 2017-10-20T13:27:08Z Xach: scymtym: It avoids this specific issue. I would be interested in more testing for other issues. 2017-10-20T13:27:11Z Xach: Fare: no. 2017-10-20T13:27:22Z Fare: I don't see anything special about uiop 3.3.0 that make it differ from 3.2.1 buildwise 2017-10-20T13:28:06Z Fare: the uiop.asd file is the exact same. 2017-10-20T13:28:15Z Guest72916 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-20T13:28:20Z Fare: (as well for 3.2.0) 2017-10-20T13:29:02Z scymtym: Xach: the plan is to apply an already-prepared and looked-at-by-fare patch directly after the upcoming release. that way, we have about a month for testing with 3.3.0 before the next release 2017-10-20T13:29:34Z Fare: also, the behavior of sometimes loading defsystem-depends-on dependencies too many times is expected from asdf 3.2.1 and earlier (or not enough times, in an incremental build). 2017-10-20T13:30:27Z Fare: scymtym, I don't know if/when rpgoldman will have time to release 3.3.1, but I recommend 3.3.0.1 over 3.3.0 because of a bug fix. 2017-10-20T13:31:24Z scymtym: Fare: sure 2017-10-20T13:33:27Z Fare: I admit I'm baffled why and how uiop 3.3.0 would cause issues that 3.2.1 doesn't. 2017-10-20T13:38:31Z Xach: With stock SBCL, UIOP 3.3.0 increases my build time by a factor of 6 and breaks things previously unbroken, due to package variance warnings. 2017-10-20T13:40:27Z scymtym: Xach: Fare: https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl/tree/asdf-3.3.0.1 (changes: https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl/compare/asdf-3.3.0.1~5...asdf-3.3.0.1 ) 2017-10-20T13:42:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:42:52Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:43:15Z Ven is now known as Guest33067 2017-10-20T13:43:24Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T13:44:05Z AndroUser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:47:53Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:52:01Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T13:59:05Z Fare: Xach: I still don't see what the code differences in UIOP can possibly bring that make a difference when the uiop.asd hasn't changed. 2017-10-20T13:59:12Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T13:59:18Z Fare: Xach: what if you put UIOP 3.2.1 in local-projects ? 2017-10-20T13:59:42Z Xach: Fare: then everything works fine. 2017-10-20T13:59:49Z Xach: no repeated compilation 2017-10-20T14:06:54Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T14:07:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T14:07:09Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:07:35Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T14:07:40Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T14:07:48Z Guest33067 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-20T14:08:05Z Fare: oh shit, I think I understand what's going on :-( :-( 2017-10-20T14:09:06Z Fare: I made a backward incompatible change in representation in stamp< thinking that "nobody uses it except ASDF". I failed to take into account using a newer UIOP with an older ASDF. 2017-10-20T14:09:23Z Fare bangs head... STOOPID. 2017-10-20T14:09:56Z Fare: this is the only relevant change I see when I diff uiop, but it's very relevant. 2017-10-20T14:10:20Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:10:49Z Fare: I should have renamed the function so it doesn't clash. 2017-10-20T14:11:10Z Fare: Xach: my apologies, again :-( 2017-10-20T14:11:14Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:11:22Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:12:25Z jdz: Don't trust people who say programming is easy, because it is not. 2017-10-20T14:12:57Z XachX: Thanks for investigating 2017-10-20T14:13:55Z mfiano: I would argue that programming is quite easy. Software engineering is another story. 2017-10-20T14:14:01Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:14:12Z Shinmera: That's just semantics. 2017-10-20T14:15:18Z beach: Is it a specialty of #lisp to argue about concepts that are undefined or ill defined, or does that occur in other channels as well? 2017-10-20T14:15:42Z Shinmera: Nah that's the internet everywhere. 2017-10-20T14:15:47Z Shinmera: You don't want to know about twitter. 2017-10-20T14:15:48Z beach: OK, thanks. 2017-10-20T14:16:06Z beach: Yes, I believe you are right. I don't. 2017-10-20T14:16:28Z Shinmera: It is a speciality of lisp that people hardly don't often get steamed, though. Or at least that's my perception. 2017-10-20T14:16:37Z Shinmera: *hardly get steamed 2017-10-20T14:17:50Z beach: Like that: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=getting%20steamed ? 2017-10-20T14:18:12Z Shinmera: I was using it in the sense of getting angry. 2017-10-20T14:18:18Z beach: Ah, OK. 2017-10-20T14:19:29Z beach: I can get very angry, but I think it is counterproductive to let it show in utterings. 2017-10-20T14:20:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:20:24Z beach: er, utterance, I mean 2017-10-20T14:20:40Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T14:20:43Z mfiano: Xach, Fare: What is :NET.DIDIERVERNA.ASDF-FLV? Apparently fiveam doesn't load because of some asdf-flv error 2017-10-20T14:20:58Z mfiano: before latest dist also 2017-10-20T14:21:07Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-20T14:23:25Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:24:10Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:24:53Z megha213 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-20T14:25:15Z Fare: I sent an update to asdf-devel 2017-10-20T14:26:39Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T14:27:31Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-20T14:28:05Z beach: mfiano: This: https://github.com/didierverna/asdf-flv ? 2017-10-20T14:28:38Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:29:12Z Fare: any suggestions for a better name than stamp< or timestamp< ? what the function does is comparing two real numbers where t means -infinity and nil means +infinity (previously, the opposite) 2017-10-20T14:30:14Z asarch: One stupid question: is Emacs Lisp object-oriented? 2017-10-20T14:30:26Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-20T14:30:36Z random-nick: asarch: no, it's oriented towards editing text buffers 2017-10-20T14:30:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:30:56Z asarch: Thank you 2017-10-20T14:30:56Z beach: asarch: That depends on your definition of "object oriented". But this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so people here might not know. 2017-10-20T14:31:09Z Shinmera: Fare: stamp-before/-after? 2017-10-20T14:31:21Z Shinmera: or stamp-before-p if you will 2017-10-20T14:31:30Z beach: asarch: Common Lisp on the other hand, has one of the most sophisticated object systems around. 2017-10-20T14:31:35Z asarch: "Object-Oriented" in the sense like CLOS 2017-10-20T14:31:53Z beach: Yeah, sorry. Don't know. 2017-10-20T14:32:08Z Fare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_real_line 2017-10-20T14:32:17Z Fare: extended-real< ? 2017-10-20T14:32:18Z Shinmera: asarch: Elisp does have EIEIO, but it's not commonly used from what I understand. 2017-10-20T14:32:26Z shka: Fare: beforep ? 2017-10-20T14:32:30Z shka: afterp ? 2017-10-20T14:32:37Z random-nick: asarch: you might also want to ask in #emacs 2017-10-20T14:32:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:32:55Z Fare: well, there are all the stamp<= stamp> stamp>= etc. functions that come with it 2017-10-20T14:33:10Z asarch: "Enhanced Implementation of Emacs Interpreted Objects" 2017-10-20T14:34:07Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T14:34:23Z Fare: asarch, "OO" is a bad, badly defined, package deal. Unbundle the package, and you'll see which parts Emacs has or doesn't have. 2017-10-20T14:34:47Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:34:50Z Fare: Shinmera, isn't EIEIO a PPC assembly instruction? 2017-10-20T14:35:23Z Shinmera: Apparently, yes. https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_72/com.ibm.aix.alangref/idalangref_eieio_instrs.htm 2017-10-20T14:37:34Z megha213 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:42:05Z jackdaniel: mfiano: flv is file-local-variables 2017-10-20T14:42:20Z jackdaniel: so user may provide his own variable which behaves like, say, *readtable* 2017-10-20T14:42:36Z mfiano: i see thanks 2017-10-20T14:42:36Z jackdaniel: which is bound anew for each file 2017-10-20T14:43:42Z jackdaniel: hm, am I wrong here or file-local-variables name is a bit confusing, because it's about bindings not the variables? 2017-10-20T14:45:56Z jackdaniel: imo UIOP shouldn't be bundled with ASDF (regarding the issue) – it is unreasonable to expect everybody to ship build system at some specific version if library is used. at price of slight increase of memory footprint bundled UIOP could reside in some internal package, like ASDF.INTERNAL.UIOP 2017-10-20T14:46:12Z jdz: Fare: whatever name you choose I'd vote for the name to include the direction character (i.e., < or >), otherwise it will be unclear which direction the comparison is being made. 2017-10-20T14:46:20Z jackdaniel: while the "library" one would be in package UIOP 2017-10-20T14:46:25Z jdz: I also personally only use < and <=. 2017-10-20T14:46:40Z Xach: jdz: that has become my habit as well. i'm not sure why. 2017-10-20T14:46:44Z Xach: regarding < and <= 2017-10-20T14:47:02Z jdz: Xach: because it is easy to mentally validate the order for left-to-right readers. 2017-10-20T14:47:23Z Xach: That is a thing *I* am! 2017-10-20T14:47:28Z jdz: Also in math classes left is always negative, and goes towards right. 2017-10-20T14:48:14Z Shinmera: I'm used to />= in algorithms or papers I get confused for a bit. 2017-10-20T14:49:01Z jdz: I usually get very confused when I see UNLESS, it also does not have to come with the use of AND or OR. 2017-10-20T14:49:06Z Shinmera: It's like how WHEN is easier to read than UNLESS, yeah 2017-10-20T14:49:10Z pjb: Furthermore, > and >= are obviously slower, since they're defined as (defun > (&rest args) (not (apply (function <=) args))) and (defun >= (&rest args) (not (apply (function <) args))) 2017-10-20T14:49:12Z jdz: But that could be because english is not my native language. 2017-10-20T14:49:23Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T14:49:25Z jackdaniel: unless you are used to unless ^_^ 2017-10-20T14:49:30Z pjb: (well, actually, it's a little more complicated, so even slower). 2017-10-20T14:49:37Z jackdaniel: bad joke, I know 2017-10-20T14:49:50Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:49:51Z Shinmera: Nah, I think unless is harder to parse because it is an inversion and people think better in terms of affirmatives than negatives. 2017-10-20T14:49:59Z Shinmera: Don't have anything to cite for my claim there though, heh 2017-10-20T14:53:21Z Fare: no, the situation with UIOP is fine, as long as I don't fuckup and introduce a backward incompatibility 2017-10-20T14:53:29Z Fare: like I just did :-( :-( 2017-10-20T14:54:22Z Shinmera: Can't blame you for not having thought of the possibility of ASDF and UIOP being of different versions, since they're treated as one project. 2017-10-20T14:54:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:54:40Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:54:57Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T14:55:07Z Fare: no, no, I should have known. UIOP was detached specifically so it could be used without ASDF. 2017-10-20T14:55:12Z Fare: or with an earlier ASDF. 2017-10-20T14:55:14Z Xach: >> uiop is useful on its own and can also be compiled and distributed separately. 2017-10-20T14:55:15Z asarch: Ok 2017-10-20T14:55:17Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-20T14:55:30Z Shinmera: Fare: Xach: I'm aware that that's the intention. 2017-10-20T14:55:42Z Fare: I just forgot about how strict the "no backward incompatibility" requirement was when I made that change. 2017-10-20T14:56:10Z Fare: "who cares about a slight change in representation when literally no one uses this function except me?" 2017-10-20T14:56:43Z Fare: (no one in QL was using it, and before 3.2.0 there was only one comment for the entire set of functions) 2017-10-20T14:57:44Z Fare: but, old ASDF's still use it, and I must be backward-compatible. 2017-10-20T14:58:25Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T14:59:18Z Fare: OK, renaming stampFOO to timestampFOO in uiop/utility.lisp (mutatis mutandis in asdf) seems to do the trick, including with QL (I reproduced Xach's test case). 2017-10-20T15:02:57Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T15:03:58Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:05:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T15:05:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:07:29Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-20T15:08:06Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-20T15:09:47Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-10-20T15:09:52Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-20T15:11:48Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-20T15:11:57Z d4ryus: yeah there should be a rule that everyone has to use 'affirmative' names instead of 'negatives'. especially on c DEFINEs. reading stuff like '#ifndef NOT_FOR_X' makes me stop for several seconds... 2017-10-20T15:12:18Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:14:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:18:22Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-20T15:20:15Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:21:29Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-20T15:26:01Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:32:15Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T15:34:19Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:38:04Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:40:47Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T15:47:38Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:47:38Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-10-20T15:47:38Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:52:57Z paule32 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T15:53:15Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:54:23Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:54:33Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: firstly, thank you for the brief explanation 2017-10-20T15:54:36Z jmercouris: I just want to clarify something though 2017-10-20T15:54:57Z jmercouris: what is a designator? 2017-10-20T15:55:04Z jmercouris: like a substitution macro or? 2017-10-20T15:55:20Z beach: No. 2017-10-20T15:55:34Z beach: It is an object that may stand for another object. 2017-10-20T15:56:09Z beach: See the glossary entry. 2017-10-20T15:56:50Z beach: clhs 1.4.1.5 2017-10-20T15:56:50Z specbot: Designators: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dae.htm 2017-10-20T15:57:08Z Josh_2: beach: did you know that off the top of your head? 2017-10-20T15:57:32Z pjb: Josh_2: beach is an implementor! 2017-10-20T15:57:35Z beach: Not the exact section, no. 2017-10-20T15:57:46Z beach: Josh_2: But I know how to find it quickly. 2017-10-20T15:58:03Z pjb: When you're an implementor, you get to know the whole clhs by heart (almost). :-) 2017-10-20T15:58:06Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:58:29Z Josh_2: I'm not surprised. 2017-10-20T15:58:45Z nika quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T15:58:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-20T15:59:45Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:00:36Z jackdaniel: l1sp.org is a perfect place to look for such things 2017-10-20T16:00:50Z jackdaniel: (note digit "one" – the second character) 2017-10-20T16:02:39Z jmercouris: but what is the a designator but a simple pre-processor macro? 2017-10-20T16:02:59Z jmercouris: it must be simply some alias no? 2017-10-20T16:03:10Z beach: jmercouris: Common Lisp doesn't have a preprocessor, and as the page explains, it is undefined when the object is coerced. 2017-10-20T16:03:29Z beach: jmercouris: It is up to each function to do the coercion. 2017-10-20T16:03:38Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:04:02Z jmercouris: beach: What does it mean to coerce an object? 2017-10-20T16:04:11Z beach: jmercouris: See the paragraph that starts with For example, mapcar... 2017-10-20T16:04:16Z jmercouris: ok one second 2017-10-20T16:04:18Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: try (coerce 'list #(1 2 3 4 5)) 2017-10-20T16:04:18Z beach: clhs coerce 2017-10-20T16:04:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 2017-10-20T16:04:33Z jackdaniel: wrong, the other way around 2017-10-20T16:04:46Z beach: jmercouris: It means converting an object to another object. 2017-10-20T16:04:46Z jackdaniel: (coerce #(1 2 3 4 5) 'list) 2017-10-20T16:05:02Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I got invalid type specifier 2017-10-20T16:05:05Z jmercouris: let me try with the new one 2017-10-20T16:05:33Z jmercouris: so coerce is like some sort of forced casting? 2017-10-20T16:06:14Z jmercouris: beach: ah okay, I just saw the thing you posted, so it is casting essentially 2017-10-20T16:06:18Z jackdaniel: no, casting is change of interpretation, while coerce may create brand new object 2017-10-20T16:06:24Z jmercouris: okay I was literally about to type that :D 2017-10-20T16:06:25Z basket: jmercouris: It doesn't cast the object, it creates a new one 2017-10-20T16:06:35Z basket: Or returns the original 2017-10-20T16:06:35Z jmercouris: so it's like some sort of "object type transform" function 2017-10-20T16:06:41Z jackdaniel: yes 2017-10-20T16:06:48Z jmercouris: and will convert one object type to an equivalent representation of another if necessary or possible 2017-10-20T16:07:15Z jackdaniel: well, not really "yes", but you may look at it that way I suppose 2017-10-20T16:07:45Z jmercouris: I just want to get a sort of high level of understanding at this point 2017-10-20T16:07:49Z Bike: it's kind of hard to define what coerce does quickly and completely. it does a couple different things. 2017-10-20T16:07:57Z jmercouris: I'm not even close to the level where these details will make a huge difference to how I think 2017-10-20T16:08:06Z shka: coerce is really complex beast 2017-10-20T16:08:18Z jackdaniel: it is not that complex 2017-10-20T16:08:46Z shka: usually it is possible to avoid using it 2017-10-20T16:09:08Z beach: In addition, it is not required that COERCE be called to coerce a designator to the designated object. 2017-10-20T16:09:30Z jmercouris: Right yeah I just read that section 2017-10-20T16:09:32Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: coerce is basically a converter – if implementation knows how to convert your object to the desired type, it will. 2017-10-20T16:09:34Z _death: cast is type coercion, coerce performs value coercion 2017-10-20T16:09:35Z jmercouris: apparently it can be left as the designator 2017-10-20T16:09:44Z yaewa joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:09:48Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T16:09:58Z jmercouris: okay, so finally the question that I really don't get is, why have both forms? 2017-10-20T16:10:03Z jackdaniel: _death: I like your definition 2017-10-20T16:10:11Z jmercouris: why allow (require :one-way) and (require "one-way") what's the advantage of having a coercible form? 2017-10-20T16:10:18Z beach: jmercouris: If the designator is already the right type for the designated object, the original object can be used. 2017-10-20T16:10:23Z _death: sometimes a cast may need to create values too, so it's not a very good distinction 2017-10-20T16:11:01Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: convenience. also require and provide are both deprecated in the standard afaik 2017-10-20T16:11:15Z jmercouris: I see, and what has replaced require? 2017-10-20T16:11:27Z Shinmera: Any build system 2017-10-20T16:11:28Z jmercouris: use? or just full package namespaces? 2017-10-20T16:11:38Z jackdaniel: well, nothing, it's just deprecated :) 2017-10-20T16:11:51Z _death: in C++ the possible coercions are given different operators.. static_cast/reinterpret_cast/const_cast/dynamic_cast 2017-10-20T16:12:33Z jmercouris: So basically in place of require, we should use asdf for example? 2017-10-20T16:13:04Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:13:11Z pjb: jmercouris: yes. Or just quicklisp. 2017-10-20T16:13:29Z jmercouris: Ok, and what mechanisms do they use to load in symbols from different files if not require? 2017-10-20T16:13:51Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:13:57Z beach: clhs compile-file 2017-10-20T16:13:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 2017-10-20T16:14:00Z beach: clhs load 2017-10-20T16:14:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 2017-10-20T16:14:05Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: down there? (load (compile-file "something.lisp")) 2017-10-20T16:14:06Z beach: Those two. 2017-10-20T16:14:19Z yaewa quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-20T16:14:27Z jmercouris: Ah okay, I've used those functions before 2017-10-20T16:14:38Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:14:38Z jmercouris: It's just that I've come across a lot of CCL code with "require" in it lately 2017-10-20T16:14:53Z jmercouris: Thank you everyone for the explanations! 2017-10-20T16:15:04Z jackdaniel: well, some modules may be available only through require 2017-10-20T16:15:23Z jmercouris: what would make them not loadable? 2017-10-20T16:15:26Z jackdaniel: but that's implementation-specific modules we are talking about 2017-10-20T16:15:27Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:15:41Z jmercouris: Ah okay, so it has to do with some sort of low-level modules not written in lisp? 2017-10-20T16:15:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-20T16:15:50Z jackdaniel: for instance, yes 2017-10-20T16:18:27Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: does there exist something like the objective-c bridge in CCL for ECL? 2017-10-20T16:18:39Z _death: jmercouris: say the lisp implementation doesn't build with asdf.. then it may use the mechanism provided by the standard 2017-10-20T16:18:41Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T16:18:54Z pjb: jmercouris: there's an old Objective-C bridge, but it has essentially bitrotted. 2017-10-20T16:18:59Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: not that I'm aware of 2017-10-20T16:19:31Z jmercouris: pjb: jackdaniel: thx for the info 2017-10-20T16:19:36Z pjb: jmercouris: also you would have to distinguish Apple Objective-C version 2 run-time from GNUstep and gcc Objective-C version 1 (or 2) run-time. 2017-10-20T16:19:48Z asarch_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:19:49Z pjb: (plus some run-times on MS-Windows, etc). 2017-10-20T16:19:50Z jmercouris: I'm only really concerned with the apple runtime 2017-10-20T16:19:59Z jmercouris: I don't think raelly anyone else uses gnustep afaik 2017-10-20T16:20:10Z pjb: jmercouris: then you could try to take the bridge from ccl and de-ccl-ize it. 2017-10-20T16:20:13Z jmercouris: I could be wrong though, maybe there's some huge objective-c enthusiasts 2017-10-20T16:20:16Z megha213 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T16:20:30Z jmercouris: pjb: that would be a nice task, but my skills in C are not so great 2017-10-20T16:20:34Z pjb: There's a new release of GNUstep last week or forthnight. 2017-10-20T16:20:39Z jmercouris: I know way too little 2017-10-20T16:21:00Z jmercouris: I feel like I could make a python bridge or something, but something like the objective-c runtime is a complete blackbox to me 2017-10-20T16:21:22Z beach: jmercouris: I strongly suggest you program in Common Lisp instead. 2017-10-20T16:21:22Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-20T16:21:32Z pjb: jmercouris: actually, it is probably easier to make an objective-C runtime bridge. 2017-10-20T16:21:50Z pjb: The objective-C runtime is smaller and simplier (no GC). 2017-10-20T16:21:59Z jmercouris: beach: that's the plan, I want to touch this kind of code as little as possible, but I must interface directly with some libraries on OSX 2017-10-20T16:22:14Z jmercouris: The libraries are basically the ones that deal with webkit 2017-10-20T16:22:19Z pjb: otherwise, just use ccl… 2017-10-20T16:22:21Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:22:50Z jmercouris: I'll use CCL for now, but I'd like to make my code as portable and as isolated as possible as we were discussing about McClim earlier 2017-10-20T16:23:00Z jmercouris: It's too bad because I've already invested so much into ECL 2017-10-20T16:23:12Z jmercouris: and now I will have to fork and support two backends... 2017-10-20T16:24:44Z pjb: Easy: don't spread you objective-c bridge code all over the place: put it all in a single file or package, inside normal lisp functions, and call them from the other modules. 2017-10-20T16:25:05Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T16:25:08Z pjb: Then you can change the implementation, possibly even using another framework than cocoa on a different platform. 2017-10-20T16:25:30Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:25:47Z jmercouris: pjb: yeah, I will like to isolate to one file, I've been thinking about it for the past two days how to do it 2017-10-20T16:26:19Z jmercouris: pjb: here's the bridge code: doesn't look like it'd be an insurmountable task: https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/trunk/source/objc-bridge 2017-10-20T16:27:45Z jmercouris: I will have to come up with my own API/interfaces, hence why I was talking about that McClim stuff earlier 2017-10-20T16:29:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T16:29:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:30:23Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:34:07Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T16:37:38Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T16:37:48Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-20T16:38:01Z marusich joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:38:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T16:39:08Z marusich quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-20T16:39:19Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-20T16:40:39Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-20T16:48:01Z emaczen: jmercouris: Are you going to make an objc-bridge to work with GNUStep or OpenStep? 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2017-10-20T19:11:29Z lambdice: apprently this is not a builtin function in sbcl 2017-10-20T19:13:19Z emaczen: closer-mop:class-precedence-list 2017-10-20T19:13:32Z emaczen: (ql:quickload "closer-mop") 2017-10-20T19:13:46Z lambdice: oh thx :) 2017-10-20T19:13:52Z lambdice: so this is a third party package? 2017-10-20T19:14:03Z Xach: lambdice: it is a portability package. it makes the interface the same on all lisps. 2017-10-20T19:14:12Z Xach: lambdice: you can use sbcl-specific code if you care only about sbcl. 2017-10-20T19:14:21Z emaczen: It might be something like sb-mop: -- I don't have SBCL on right now 2017-10-20T19:14:25Z Xach: It is in sb-mop. 2017-10-20T19:14:36Z Xach: lambdice: the "apropos" function can help you find functions by name substrings. 2017-10-20T19:15:01Z Xach: (apropos "class-precedence-list") shows some promise, and look for things with ":" rather than "::" usually. (even a ":" is no guarantee of supportedness though.) 2017-10-20T19:15:11Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T19:15:44Z lambdice: thx a lot 2017-10-20T19:16:29Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T19:17:01Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T19:17:33Z patche joined #lisp 2017-10-20T19:18:57Z lambdice: ok little question about quicklisp.. 2017-10-20T19:19:00Z Xach: spill it 2017-10-20T19:19:22Z pjb: No, don't spill it. Do a 48-hour countdown! 2017-10-20T19:19:30Z lambdice: lol 2017-10-20T19:19:42Z pjb: (and be sure to insert pauses in the countdown for technical problems). 2017-10-20T19:19:44Z lambdice: ok on my session i have sbcl and i use quicklisp to get a lot of package needed 2017-10-20T19:19:53Z lambdice: what is the plan if i want to share this software to someone else? 2017-10-20T19:20:07Z jmercouris: lambdice: use ASDF 2017-10-20T19:20:35Z lambdice: humm i read a bit about asdf.. i have to read it more carefully then 2017-10-20T19:20:57Z jmercouris: lambdice: here's an example of my project which has a few dependencies: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/next.asd and then here is how someone runs it, pullin in those dependencies as necessary: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/run.lisp 2017-10-20T19:21:24Z pjb: lambdice: what I do: - add a generate.lisp script that will quickload my asdf system; - add a Makefile to invoke the generate.lisp correct; - add a README telling to do make application to build the application. - push everything on some git repository. 2017-10-20T19:21:45Z Xach: lambdice: there are many options 2017-10-20T19:21:53Z Xach: lambdice: do you want to share the source code, or a binary program? 2017-10-20T19:21:59Z pjb: lambdice: your asdf system and its quicklisp dependencies will ben dealt with automatically in generate.lisp by a ql:quickload of your system. 2017-10-20T19:22:02Z jmercouris: Xach: The only limit is yourself 2017-10-20T19:22:13Z lambdice: Xach: this is more the binary program 2017-10-20T19:22:15Z pjb: lambdice: if you have other kinds of dependencies, you can add what is needed in it to fetch them. 2017-10-20T19:22:23Z Xach: jmercouris: sorry, i don't mean to be a bottleneck :~( 2017-10-20T19:22:23Z jmercouris: lambdice: Good luck with the binary :) 2017-10-20T19:22:30Z pjb: downloading tarballs, svn or git checkouts etc. 2017-10-20T19:22:31Z Xach: lambdice: i use a program called buildapp for that. 2017-10-20T19:22:32Z lambdice: well i mean this is the application 2017-10-20T19:22:33Z jmercouris: Xach: It's a zombocom reference 2017-10-20T19:22:36Z lambdice: it can be lisp script 2017-10-20T19:22:45Z Xach: lambdice: but there are many other options too 2017-10-20T19:23:06Z lambdice: yeah i want to share the give the application to someone, and i know the guy just have sbcl installed 2017-10-20T19:23:12Z jmercouris: lambdice: if you are using ECL, I can help you produce standalone binaries 2017-10-20T19:23:17Z lambdice: so i will follow all your option 2017-10-20T19:23:43Z lambdice: so the user of the application must have quicklisp too ? 2017-10-20T19:24:03Z Xach: lambdice: another option is quicklisp "bundles", where you can put a set of libraries into a self-contained directory tree 2017-10-20T19:24:17Z Xach: lambdice: the user has to have the code you're using, how they get it can vary 2017-10-20T19:24:50Z lambdice: Xach: looks like more windows or mac os x version for giving application to user 2017-10-20T19:24:58Z lambdice: i mean the bundle version 2017-10-20T19:25:00Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-20T19:25:05Z pjb: lambdice: see for examples: https://framagit.org/patchwork/patchwork (it's a complex case, with a separate repo to get dependencies: https://framagit.org/patchwork/scripts ), or https://framagit.org/nasium-lse/nasium-lse/tree/master/src with https://framagit.org/nasium-lse/nasium-lse/tree/master/dependencies (several different executables built (server/client)). 2017-10-20T19:25:14Z Xach: lambdice: I don't understand, sorry. quicklisp bundles are not os-specific. 2017-10-20T19:25:33Z Xach: they include libraries and code to load the libraries. 2017-10-20T19:25:39Z pjb: Well, unless you add #+ os specific dependencies in your asd file… 2017-10-20T19:25:48Z pjb: (so try to avoid that). 2017-10-20T19:25:58Z lambdice: Xach: well i mean, lets say.. i wrote a game in common lisp, using cl-sdl2 and other stuff 2017-10-20T19:26:10Z Xach: ok 2017-10-20T19:26:13Z lambdice: i just want my user to click on an icon and launch the game 2017-10-20T19:26:27Z lambdice: ofc i provide the sbcl binary and some install script 2017-10-20T19:26:42Z S1ohy` joined #lisp 2017-10-20T19:26:43Z pjb: and resources. 2017-10-20T19:26:45Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T19:26:52Z Xach: Ok. I don't know how best to do that. but people do use lisp to make games, so maybe there is some insight from those people. 2017-10-20T19:26:55Z lambdice: yeah 2017-10-20T19:27:23Z lambdice: but thx for all your link i will try some of your strategy 2017-10-20T19:27:41Z Xach: lambdice: it is usually far more challenging to make something someone else wants to run, than to actually make it available for them to run. 2017-10-20T19:27:52Z Xach: i try to tackle the former problem first 2017-10-20T19:27:59Z lambdice: ::) 2017-10-20T19:28:00Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, say, mop, time, tell, roll, help, deny, clhs, login, 2017-10-20T19:28:57Z pjb: lambdice: you may get more specific answer in #lispgames even for packaging your game releases. 2017-10-20T19:29:02Z S1ohy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-20T19:29:14Z jmercouris: lambdice: I don't know if you have to install SBCL on the users computer 2017-10-20T19:30:07Z lambdice: well lets say fo cl-sdl2 my first try was like, create an install.lisp, that will run quicklisp to install cl-sdl2 2017-10-20T19:30:40Z Xach: lambdice: A bundle would be a better option in that situation. 2017-10-20T19:30:46Z lambdice: indeed 2017-10-20T19:30:52Z Xach: I have to pay every time someone installs software from quicklisp. 2017-10-20T19:30:57Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T19:31:11Z lambdice: ahaha 2017-10-20T19:31:13Z Xach: bundles are free, baby! 2017-10-20T19:31:25Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-20T19:31:42Z lambdice: i gave me a lot of links and information thx all 2017-10-20T19:31:50Z lambdice: i will dig on bundle made from quicklisp 2017-10-20T19:32:00Z Xach so many picodollars 2017-10-20T19:33:04Z lambdice: guys, sorry to ask this again, i think a lot of newbee ask this a lot.. but 2017-10-20T19:33:09Z lambdice: what do you use if you want to create a gui for your app ? 2017-10-20T19:33:26Z jmercouris: lambdice: this is complicated question 2017-10-20T19:33:27Z lambdice: qt looks like the legit and easy thing today 2017-10-20T19:33:28Z jmercouris: what are your requirements? 2017-10-20T19:33:35Z jmercouris: lambdice: If you wish to use QT, use EQL and ECL 2017-10-20T19:33:51Z lambdice: a basic desktop windows to manage some backend script 2017-10-20T19:34:02Z jmercouris: If graphical performance is not an issue, QT is fine 2017-10-20T19:34:17Z jmercouris: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5 2017-10-20T19:34:19Z lambdice: jmercouris: yeah i know a lot of ask this question even in other language 2017-10-20T19:34:24Z jmercouris: I can help you produce standalone binaries 2017-10-20T19:34:25Z pjb: McCLIM even more so. 2017-10-20T19:34:42Z pjb: And it's more portable than eql which restricts you to ecl. 2017-10-20T19:34:46Z jmercouris: pjb: What platforms does McClim run on? 2017-10-20T19:34:51Z jmercouris: I mean like OS's 2017-10-20T19:34:59Z pjb: There are backends for all. 2017-10-20T19:35:19Z lambdice: i read a bit about mcClim and it seems a bit hard to use 2017-10-20T19:35:27Z lambdice: but if i can bypass QT i would be happy 2017-10-20T19:35:36Z jmercouris: The people working on McClim are really good developers 2017-10-20T19:35:52Z patche joined #lisp 2017-10-20T19:35:54Z lambdice: jmercouris: your qt binding from EQ is for ECL only ? 2017-10-20T19:36:03Z jmercouris: lambdice: It's not my binding :D 2017-10-20T19:36:10Z jmercouris: Yeah it is restricted to ECL 2017-10-20T19:36:10Z lambdice: yeah :) i mean your link! 2017-10-20T19:36:21Z jmercouris: but it produces nice little standalone binaries, and it is easy to get started with 2017-10-20T19:36:23Z sjl: lambdice: another option is qtools https://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2017-10-20T19:36:40Z S1ohy` is now known as S1ohy 2017-10-20T19:36:40Z jmercouris: sjl: Qtools uses Qt4 2017-10-20T19:36:42Z sjl: I've used it. It mostly works, aside from a few OpenGL quirks on OS X 2017-10-20T19:36:47Z sjl: jmercouris: yep, it sure does 2017-10-20T19:36:53Z jackdaniel: lambdice: EQL may be used from any implementation via swank protocol. I've encountered such mention in its documentation 2017-10-20T19:37:05Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I can confirm this 2017-10-20T19:37:06Z jackdaniel: (and EQL5) 2017-10-20T19:37:18Z jmercouris: Finally a topic I have some expertise on :D 2017-10-20T19:37:34Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: so you managed to connect and program EQL5 from, say, sbcl? 2017-10-20T19:37:37Z lambdice: cause i saw some GUI from lispworks... and it wrosk so well 2017-10-20T19:37:48Z lambdice: so sad i dont have the money for it now 2017-10-20T19:37:50Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I haven't tried it, but it should very much be possible 2017-10-20T19:37:57Z jackdaniel: cool 2017-10-20T19:38:01Z lambdice: do you know what use lispworks under the hood? 2017-10-20T19:38:07Z jackdaniel: CAPI 2017-10-20T19:38:32Z oleo: yeh 2017-10-20T19:39:09Z jackdaniel: lambdice: here you have a sub-paragraph giving overview on CL GUI solutions: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/involve 2017-10-20T19:39:20Z jackdaniel: section "Is McCLIM the only graphical toolkit for Common Lisp?" 2017-10-20T19:39:52Z oleo: no not really 2017-10-20T19:39:56Z oleo: there are many others 2017-10-20T19:40:05Z oleo: however they use additional libs like tcl/tk 2017-10-20T19:40:07Z lambdice: nice link thx 2017-10-20T19:40:13Z oleo: and or some scheme libs even 2017-10-20T19:40:32Z jmercouris: I guess literally any GUI toolkit in existence should be possible 2017-10-20T19:41:03Z jmercouris: It becomes a question of a Theseus type ship though, if we modify a GUI toolkit enough to interface it with lisp, is it still the same toolkit? 2017-10-20T19:41:04Z lambdice: well mcClim seems the "big mama" in the opensource software for gui programming 2017-10-20T19:41:06Z oleo: mcclim is the only one written in common-lisp and using only standard backends like clx 2017-10-20T19:41:35Z jmercouris: Again though, I guess it depends on what views you are trying to support, does McClim have a web-view for instance? 2017-10-20T19:41:45Z oleo: no 2017-10-20T19:42:02Z oleo: that web-view you speak of is done in another app 2017-10-20T19:42:21Z oleo: named closure 2017-10-20T19:42:23Z jmercouris: I knew the answer the question, I was just trying to prove a point ;) 2017-10-20T19:42:33Z jmercouris: Closure doesn't have a web-view either :D 2017-10-20T19:42:41Z lambdice: well for a newbee like me, mcclim seem really hard to use vs all these qt-binding 2017-10-20T19:43:00Z lambdice: maybe i need to be more comfortable with lisp first 2017-10-20T19:43:10Z oleo: welp, mcclim is stable for me 2017-10-20T19:43:21Z oleo: in the past i tried to use eql etc 2017-10-20T19:43:30Z oleo: i depended on some other qt-libs 2017-10-20T19:43:37Z oleo: like smoke or so 2017-10-20T19:43:39Z jackdaniel: I'm glad to hear it is stable 2017-10-20T19:43:45Z jackdaniel: I have some unpushed changes 2017-10-20T19:44:05Z jmercouris: lol the way you phrased that it sounds like you are waiting to push changes that add instability :D 2017-10-20T19:44:12Z oleo: and i couldn't always install it either/or eql would be somehow unstable 2017-10-20T19:44:29Z oleo: never doing what you expected etc.... 2017-10-20T19:44:35Z oleo: not sure how it is now 2017-10-20T19:44:40Z jmercouris: oleo: What OS? Also depending on how you install QT, it can really vary the stability 2017-10-20T19:44:50Z lambdice: as usual this chan is fantastic, thx for your information all, dinner time! 2017-10-20T19:44:53Z jmercouris: it also depends on how you are treating and handling the objects, some behaviors are allowed, but dangerous 2017-10-20T19:45:13Z oleo: linux, mostly slackware and or some debian alternatives or even gentoo 2017-10-20T19:45:55Z jackdaniel: sorry, my net had a hiccup 2017-10-20T19:45:57Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: is there any plans to maybe just use open gl for mcclim? 2017-10-20T19:46:03Z jackdaniel: I did want to add, that they are not cleaned yet 2017-10-20T19:46:04Z oleo: in the case of eql i used standard code snippets 2017-10-20T19:46:05Z jackdaniel: that's why I didn't push 2017-10-20T19:46:13Z oleo: and i got garbled output for example 2017-10-20T19:46:29Z oleo: and or mixed order output say 2017-10-20T19:46:34Z jmercouris: oleo: strange, I've never had it crash on me 2017-10-20T19:46:39Z jackdaniel: eql is pretty cool imo, especiall qt5 part with webkit on android and stuff 2017-10-20T19:46:42Z jmercouris: Well, I have had it crash, but due to defects 2017-10-20T19:46:52Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T19:46:55Z jmercouris: in the way I was doing things with QT 2017-10-20T19:47:04Z oleo: like i said, that was a few years ago, maybe things changed 2017-10-20T19:47:42Z oleo: anyway, mcclim works for me and does the things i expect of it albeit some features not working or not being implemented 2017-10-20T19:47:48Z oleo: but that's only a small part 2017-10-20T19:48:23Z jackdaniel: so much cool free software to hack on, so little time 2017-10-20T19:48:47Z oleo: one has to be already fluent in oop in order to understand all the hooks and judge if something is wrong (logic or otherwise) 2017-10-20T19:48:50Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-20T19:50:01Z jackdaniel: hacking on mcclim has improved my clos understanding a lot 2017-10-20T19:50:14Z oleo: for example there is a Drei/lisp-syntax.lisp in which there is a func named perenthesis-highlighter or so 2017-10-20T19:50:41Z oleo: and it tries to work with +bold-face-drawing-options+ 2017-10-20T19:51:02Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2017-10-20T19:51:06Z oleo: but i couldn't get it to work with bold-face stuff 2017-10-20T19:52:00Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T19:52:13Z oleo: i only replaced it with an ink, such that it draws stuff with some ink (which is the lighter version of my foreground ink, and my background ink is black) 2017-10-20T19:52:17Z oleo: and that way it works 2017-10-20T19:53:51Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-20T19:53:59Z oleo: i first replaced it with a text-style but that didn't have any effects 2017-10-20T19:54:04Z oleo: weather bold or not 2017-10-20T19:54:37Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-20T19:54:47Z oleo: so some stuff is conflated logic wise 2017-10-20T19:55:42Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-20T20:02:07Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T20:06:27Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:06:55Z nirved quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-20T20:09:57Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-20T20:10:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:13:59Z emaczen: how would I create an initialized C array, i.e. type name[size] = {v1, v2, ... vsize} 2017-10-20T20:14:15Z emaczen: I'm using CCL I'm not sure if this is compiler specific or not 2017-10-20T20:14:26Z emaczen: in CCL would you use CFFI? 2017-10-20T20:14:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:16:28Z oleo: probably 2017-10-20T20:16:39Z oleo: types are very different across C and common-lisp 2017-10-20T20:16:44Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T20:17:09Z emaczen: I'm working with a cocoa library in CCL and I need a plain old C array... 2017-10-20T20:18:14Z oleo: they have very different ideas and expectations about types, sometimes you have to even intervene manually in cffi 2017-10-20T20:21:05Z emaczen: (cffi:foreign-array-alloc #(1 2 3) :int) ? 2017-10-20T20:21:21Z emaczen: I can't get the right array-type argument 2017-10-20T20:21:46Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:22:10Z emaczen: I don't see how :int is not valid, it is listed as a built-in type in the manual 2017-10-20T20:22:36Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:22:37Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:22:53Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:29:01Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-20T20:30:06Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-20T20:30:43Z chream joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:31:04Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:34:05Z oleo: (foreign-alloc :int :initial-contents #(1 2 3)) 2017-10-20T20:34:27Z oleo: (loop for i from 0 below 3 2017-10-20T20:34:27Z oleo: collect (mem-aref * :int i)) 2017-10-20T20:34:54Z oleo: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Other-Types 2017-10-20T20:36:40Z chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:38:05Z chream quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-20T20:39:48Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-20T20:39:49Z oleo: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#with_002dforeign_002dobject 2017-10-20T20:43:23Z oleo: emaczen: you are reading the wrong doc i think 2017-10-20T20:43:33Z oleo: emaczen: that one is for python or some such probably 2017-10-20T20:43:49Z oleo: emaczen: afaik the api for cl is a little different 2017-10-20T20:44:23Z oleo: emaczen: there's no foreign-array-alloc it seems 2017-10-20T20:45:07Z oleo: emaczen: and even if it's probably not an exported symbol, so not exposed and as such not an api function 2017-10-20T20:48:35Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-20T20:49:53Z shwouchk joined #lisp 2017-10-20T20:51:11Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T20:59:06Z nast quit (Quit: nast) 2017-10-20T21:00:47Z chream_: Hi, I am having some troubles with emacs and ecl. When trying to load some systems it unexpectedly disconnects me from ecl and the server stops. The only info I get is from the swank server: Illegal instruction: 4. I seem to have traced the problem to cffi. Has anyone had this before? Also, one clue might be that I recently installed many native GNU command line tools on my mac. Has anyone had any troubles with this before? 2017-10-20T21:01:32Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-20T21:02:00Z chream_: Lastly, the systems apparently install fine when I tried outside emacs and slime. Might be a emacs problem then? 2017-10-20T21:02:59Z chream_: Also, everything works on other implementations. (works on sbcl, got an unrelated heap error for allegro) 2017-10-20T21:09:54Z Shinmera: Well if you use CFFI or other stuff that directly manipulates memory, you might corrupt the implementation badly, leading to a crash. 2017-10-20T21:10:36Z Shinmera: Might also be a bug in ECL, or the library not being adapted to certain ECL specific things. 2017-10-20T21:10:41Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-20T21:11:23Z jackdaniel: chream_: this is a known bug fixed in develop branch 2017-10-20T21:12:07Z jackdaniel: recent changes to slime (didn't find time to narrow them yet) shown some ECL problems. probably my last pull request to slime repository 2017-10-20T21:12:30Z jackdaniel: (bug with illegal instruction is fixed in ECL repository) 2017-10-20T21:13:35Z lambdice quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-20T21:19:22Z zulu_inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-20T21:23:55Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-20T21:25:36Z asarch: Scheme is not object-oriented, is it? 2017-10-20T21:25:52Z _death: asarch: what difference does it make 2017-10-20T21:26:16Z asarch: I mean, just for my notes 2017-10-20T21:26:45Z _death: asarch: http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html 2017-10-20T21:27:13Z asarch: Common Lisp has CLOS, Emacs has "Enhanced Implementation of Emacs Interpreted Objects" 2017-10-20T21:27:43Z _death: scheme has object systems, some clos-like.. but not part of the standard 2017-10-20T21:27:53Z asarch: Thank you _death 2017-10-20T21:27:59Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-10-20T21:28:47Z asarch: BTW, it's awesome your nick! 2017-10-20T21:29:13Z _death: came up with it when I was 14 :) 2017-10-20T21:29:50Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-20T21:30:33Z asarch: It's great 2017-10-20T21:31:01Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-20T21:32:17Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T21:32:41Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2017-10-20T21:33:20Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-20T21:33:45Z anticrisis quit 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in :type so I can't e.g. `(,+foo+) or (list +foo+) 2017-10-20T21:50:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T21:52:13Z _death: so you need deftype 2017-10-20T22:00:08Z aeth: not necessarily 2017-10-20T22:00:22Z aeth: I'm using defstruct through a macro 2017-10-20T22:00:48Z _death: sure, you could also eval.. or hack defstruct to evaluate the typespec, or.. 2017-10-20T22:00:50Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-20T22:02:55Z Shinmera: You could #. 2017-10-20T22:05:01Z aeth: yes, but afaik that requires the user to #.+constant+ which isn't a good interface 2017-10-20T22:05:02Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-20T22:05:36Z _death: you'd also need to make sure the constant's value is available 2017-10-20T22:06:59Z aeth: I suppose #. will work for now 2017-10-20T22:07:44Z aeth: It's clearer than a dozen type definitions 2017-10-20T22:08:33Z akem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-20T22:09:27Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-20T22:11:10Z aeth: The best alternative if 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Parens? yes, that's embodiment of Python as a snake. No, it is natural that binary is named sbcl – python is its internal compiler :-) 2017-10-21T10:17:26Z phoe_: parenthesessssssss 2017-10-21T10:19:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T10:19:40Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T10:20:05Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T10:21:06Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-21T10:26:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-21T10:28:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T10:28:37Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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2017-10-21T12:01:28Z oleo: cltl1->cltl2->ansi 2017-10-21T12:02:00Z dmiles: ok good 2017-10-21T12:02:38Z Shinmera: dmiles: Why do you need to know? 2017-10-21T12:03:18Z dmiles: i am implementing a "new" common lisp :) 2017-10-21T12:03:37Z Shinmera: Good luck with that. 2017-10-21T12:03:54Z Shinmera: I wouldn't assume any general "compatibility" between the different CL editions, though. 2017-10-21T12:03:59Z dmiles: and wanting to stage how much i get done (in what order) 2017-10-21T12:04:25Z Shinmera: Ansi is the standard, so I don't see why you would want to look at the drafts leading up to it at all. 2017-10-21T12:05:39Z dmiles: well its good i can start by passing https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/lang/lisp/doc/standard/tests/0.html (CLtL1) 2017-10-21T12:05:57Z dmiles: its more what order of passing tests 2017-10-21T12:06:23Z oleo: start with ansi then if you want to further it 2017-10-21T12:06:26Z Bike: that doesn't make sense to me. it's likely that tests for cltl1 are not valid for a cltl2 or CL implementation. 2017-10-21T12:06:33Z oleo: yo 2017-10-21T12:07:05Z dmiles: that should been my real questiion about tests for cltl1 are valid or not 2017-10-21T12:07:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-21T12:07:17Z Shinmera: As I said 2017-10-21T12:07:25Z Shinmera: You should not assume any general compatibility. 2017-10-21T12:07:32Z Shinmera: Doing such an evaluation would be a lot of involved work. 2017-10-21T12:07:42Z Shinmera: Besides, there's https://github.com/robert-strandh/ansi-cl-tests 2017-10-21T12:07:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:08:48Z dmiles: well yeah i could just work on the ansi tests .. that works out 2017-10-21T12:08:49Z yaocl_ quit (Quit: yaocl_) 2017-10-21T12:09:00Z Shinmera: It's not like CLtL1 would be much less work to implement than ansi either. 2017-10-21T12:09:05Z jackdaniel: here is canonical repository: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test 2017-10-21T12:09:23Z Shinmera: If anything you'd start working on CLtL1 only to realise a lot of it is not ANSI, and have to rewrite a bunch. 2017-10-21T12:09:58Z Shinmera: The drafts weren't incremental things where they just kept on adding stuff after each. 2017-10-21T12:10:40Z jackdaniel: question is: why start a new implementation? wouldn't be easier to contribute to something else? or if you feel you must be at lead – fork other imlementation and name it something different, like mkcl 2017-10-21T12:10:56Z jackdaniel: ? 2017-10-21T12:11:50Z dmiles: i am making a CL that compiles to Prolog 2017-10-21T12:12:13Z dmiles: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/tree/master/prolog/wam-cl 2017-10-21T12:12:47Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:12:47Z dmiles: its so i dont have to port a very large program CYC to prolog 2017-10-21T12:13:15Z jackdaniel: uhm 2017-10-21T12:13:20Z Shinmera: Creating a lisp implementation so you don't have to port is like saying "ok I'd rather write my own OS than port my video game from windows to linux" 2017-10-21T12:14:10Z Shinmera: Implementing CL is a gargantuan task. 2017-10-21T12:15:20Z dmiles: many things make it easier like XCL and ABCL 2017-10-21T12:15:38Z dmiles: \that onyl a small subset is needed to start and most is written in common lisp 2017-10-21T12:16:13Z Shinmera: Well that's the pipe dream 2017-10-21T12:16:57Z Shinmera: Clasp, despite copying pretty much all the lisp code from ECL, took many years of focused work to get running at all, and it's still not acceptable performance-wise. 2017-10-21T12:17:31Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:17:56Z dmiles: when XCL (C++) it was a port of Java version that took the few weeks since it didnt port any of the lisp code 2017-10-21T12:18:11Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:18:27Z jackdaniel: that's not entirely true, clasp written its own compiler, which makes a huge chunk of ECL codebase 2017-10-21T12:18:49Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:19:08Z jackdaniel: but I believe that best shot for having CL->prolog bridge would be doing something similar 2017-10-21T12:19:20Z jackdaniel: s/bridge/transpiler/ 2017-10-21T12:19:32Z jackdaniel: or even better, adding new backend to some existing compiler infrastructure 2017-10-21T12:26:38Z dmiles: i could revamp https://pastebin.com/zu3iDR9V 2017-10-21T12:28:16Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:28:45Z dmiles: much bitrott obviouly 2017-10-21T12:32:40Z dmiles: what started my current project (not that one) is I have to implement parts of lisp anyways and have to make sure prolog attributed varaibles could implment foreighn objects in a natural manner to prolog coders 2017-10-21T12:34:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T12:34:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:34:45Z dmiles: so yes a fair choice is to link in part of ECL again or try to embed sbcl 2017-10-21T12:35:19Z dmiles: embedding scl (joking) 2017-10-21T12:35:28Z dmiles: embedding sbcl* (joking) 2017-10-21T12:36:39Z dmiles: i suppose the port if try for a whole CL is to not have document what parts of lisp i am missing 2017-10-21T12:38:13Z dmiles: but everything you guys have said make perfect sense 2017-10-21T12:38:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T12:39:00Z sabrac joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:39:09Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:39:15Z dmiles: hrrm there is 180mb of source code to CYC 2017-10-21T12:39:28Z dmiles: thats a big port 2017-10-21T12:40:16Z edgar-rft: Chicago Yacht Club? 2017-10-21T12:40:19Z oleo: are there lisp variants with calling conventions of pascal ? 2017-10-21T12:40:22Z dmiles: there is a translator to C and Java 2017-10-21T12:40:49Z Shinmera: It also seems to me going the other way, Prolog -> Lisp, would be much easier. 2017-10-21T12:40:56Z Shinmera: There's already prolog compilers for CL out there, if I remember correctly. 2017-10-21T12:41:22Z dmiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyc 2017-10-21T12:41:27Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:42:07Z dmiles: so far i cant get the speed out of prolog-in-lisp that i get with prolog-in-C 2017-10-21T12:42:51Z dmiles: also i havent encountered a prolgo-in-lisp that implements the entire prolgo language 2017-10-21T12:42:59Z dmiles: prolog* 2017-10-21T12:43:25Z dmiles: if i could match the speed.. i'd happily implment the rest of prolog 2017-10-21T12:44:15Z dmiles: (in common-lisp) 2017-10-21T12:44:40Z knobo: Which variables do I manipulate to ensure that slime-edit-definition uses a file on remote server? 2017-10-21T12:45:04Z Bike: i think just check the slime manual for the part about tramp. 2017-10-21T12:45:54Z dmiles: Shinmera: oh embeding a prolgo-in-c in lisp yes is a good idea 2017-10-21T12:46:18Z dmiles: Shinmera: there are some FFIs for that already 2017-10-21T12:47:37Z dmiles: none of them have been set up to make prolgo-call-lisp but yes that makes sense i could at least contribute a callback API 2017-10-21T12:48:32Z dmiles: (example of what is there https://github.com/keithj/cl-prolog/blob/master/src/swi/swi-prolog-ffi.lisp ) 2017-10-21T12:48:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T12:49:05Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T12:51:54Z Shinmera: If your prolog can do C calls, ECL would probably be the way to go. 2017-10-21T12:53:15Z dmiles: yeah 2017-10-21T12:53:46Z jackdaniel: ECL has some bit-rotten support for locatives in its CLR 2017-10-21T12:53:57Z jackdaniel: I plan to review that at some point of time 2017-10-21T12:54:03Z dmiles: locatives was why i choose ECL intially 2017-10-21T12:54:17Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:55:12Z dmiles: even though technically if cl_object* (as long as they dont shift in memory) lets me do many of my hacks 2017-10-21T12:55:16Z goreye joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:55:43Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T12:55:58Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-21T12:56:29Z jackdaniel: locatives were first-class citizens in lisp world as well afaik 2017-10-21T12:57:41Z dmiles: for instnace if i get a 2 pointers (cl_object*) to a vector and I want to replace all occurances of the vecotr1 with vector2 i think i can get away with that? 2017-10-21T12:58:02Z dmiles: oops i mean 2 pointers to two vectors 2017-10-21T12:58:34Z jackdaniel: don't know - I'd have to understand better this use case (I dont have energy to think about it now :) 2017-10-21T12:58:38Z dmiles: (I mean i could do this from C) 2017-10-21T12:58:46Z dmiles: *nod* 2017-10-21T12:59:30Z dmiles: effectively i think the answer is yes.. which means i can probably survive if lisp cant understand this hack.. i can make lisp call C to do it 2017-10-21T12:59:53Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:00:19Z sabrac: is there any way to remove an entire package from a running lisp instance? 2017-10-21T13:00:27Z dmiles: the old first class locative system I belive was special in that when memory shifted the tracking is updated 2017-10-21T13:01:03Z dmiles: a locative is like a low level pointer to a place 2017-10-21T13:01:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:01:52Z dmiles: locatives allowed you to put 1 place in several places at once 2017-10-21T13:02:19Z dmiles: you could then update all values later but updating only the root place 2017-10-21T13:02:35Z dmiles: you could then update all values later *by* updating only the root place 2017-10-21T13:02:57Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T13:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T13:03:23Z dmiles: this saves magnitudes of time .. this is the secret to prolog's speed 2017-10-21T13:04:19Z pjb: dmiles: perhaps this could be done with Cells too? 2017-10-21T13:04:54Z dmiles: perhaps.. that would take care of shifting memory 2017-10-21T13:05:23Z dmiles: by Cells i was thinking you meant saving them in Conses 2017-10-21T13:05:40Z dmiles googles to see if Cells are special objects 2017-10-21T13:05:46Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-21T13:06:28Z pjb: https://github.com/kennytilton/cells 2017-10-21T13:07:15Z pjb: http://stefano.dissegna.me/cells-tutorial.html 2017-10-21T13:07:25Z Shinmera: sabrac: there's DELETE-PACKAGE 2017-10-21T13:07:49Z dmiles: interesting .. yes Cells seems created to work arround the missing locative 2017-10-21T13:08:05Z Shinmera: sabrac: Note that this may or may not GC associated bindings with the symbols of said package. 2017-10-21T13:09:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T13:09:28Z dmiles: well adds a buch of logic to when cells get changed 2017-10-21T13:09:38Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:09:40Z dmiles: read/written to 2017-10-21T13:13:18Z dmiles: and cells indeed allow lazy side (locatives (even defined in lisp) never got arround to lazyness) 2017-10-21T13:13:37Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-21T13:13:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T13:14:09Z knobo: based on "7.1.3 Setting up pathname translations", I can not make it work. 2017-10-21T13:14:12Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:18:04Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:18:42Z knobo: Emacs is not using my slime-filename-translations hook. 2017-10-21T13:19:40Z dmiles: Cells at least emulates greater that 50% of the desired chicanery .. though I think it made the hardest stuff easy so once would forgive that the simple stuff isnt as supported 2017-10-21T13:19:53Z sabrac: Shinmera: Ok I feel stupid now. Thank you. Just tested on sbcl. It does not look like it automatically does gc when calling delete-package. 2017-10-21T13:20:26Z Shinmera: sabrac: I forget if the symbols simply lose their package (become gensyms) or what exactly happens to them. 2017-10-21T13:21:09Z sabrac: Shinmera: Easy enough to write a function to call delete-package and then call gc 2017-10-21T13:25:06Z yaocl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:26:33Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T13:26:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:26:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T13:27:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:31:55Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:35:25Z knobo: Why isn't my slime using slime-filename-transkations? 2017-10-21T13:35:40Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-21T13:36:03Z knobo: slime-contribs is (slime-tramp slime-company slime-fancy) 2017-10-21T13:36:47Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-21T13:38:41Z sabrac: Shinmera: after running GC, tried quickloading the package back into the running instance. Quicklisp thinks it succeeded, but LIST-ALL-PACKAGES disagrees. Memory usage jumped, so it is there, just not accessible. The joys of unintern. 2017-10-21T13:39:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T13:39:22Z Shinmera: sabrac: Undoing in general is a difficult operation. 2017-10-21T13:39:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:43:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T13:43:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:44:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:44:47Z phoe_: sabrac: use ASDF for that, (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :asdf-system-name :force t) 2017-10-21T13:45:05Z goreye quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-21T13:45:58Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-21T13:46:24Z yaocl_ quit (Quit: yaocl_) 2017-10-21T13:47:59Z yaocl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:48:05Z joaj joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:54:57Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-21T13:56:48Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T14:01:58Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T14:02:41Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T14:05:27Z joaj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T14:05:30Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:06:20Z random-nick quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T14:06:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:07:05Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:07:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-21T14:09:12Z sabrac: phoe_: Thank you. 2017-10-21T14:09:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T14:09:40Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:11:06Z yaocl_ quit (Quit: yaocl_) 2017-10-21T14:13:54Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T14:14:16Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:25:23Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:32:15Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:34:24Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T14:34:52Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:42:30Z joaj joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:42:53Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T14:43:07Z zooey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T14:44:23Z richardjdare joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:44:36Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-21T14:59:47Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:02:35Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:03:08Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:06:55Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T15:13:02Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-21T15:17:11Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-21T15:19:47Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T15:20:10Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:21:56Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T15:25:09Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:29:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T15:29:40Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:32:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:37:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-21T15:38:03Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:38:47Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T15:39:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:49:48Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-21T15:56:49Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-21T15:57:08Z joaj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-21T16:02:21Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T16:03:09Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:04:15Z nhandler quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-21T16:04:28Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:05:46Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-21T16:06:59Z nhandler joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:07:49Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:09:41Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T16:12:11Z cpape joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:12:17Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T16:18:36Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-21T16:21:22Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:23:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:23:58Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-21T16:26:24Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-21T16:27:05Z nast quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-21T16:29:02Z emaczen: I want to use cffi:defcstruct to just get 4 fields out of a struct with many fields and nested structs. 2017-10-21T16:29:12Z emaczen: I see that I can do this with the :offset keyword 2017-10-21T16:29:17Z emaczen: in a slot defintion 2017-10-21T16:29:39Z emaczen: How would you recommend I determine these offsets? 2017-10-21T16:33:05Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T16:33:21Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-10-21T16:35:41Z nhandler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T16:36:49Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:36:57Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:37:22Z SaganMan: is there anyone here? 2017-10-21T16:37:56Z SaganMan: what's the function in cl that evaluates all the statements below? 2017-10-21T16:38:26Z mfiano: Heh, which one? 2017-10-21T16:38:56Z beach: SaganMan: That does not make any sense. 2017-10-21T16:39:01Z Josh_2: progn? 2017-10-21T16:39:05Z SaganMan: yeah 2017-10-21T16:39:14Z beach: SaganMan: PROGN is not a function. 2017-10-21T16:39:15Z SaganMan: thanks Josh_2 2017-10-21T16:39:22Z SaganMan: beach: what's it called? 2017-10-21T16:39:24Z mfiano: That's not a function and not the only one of its type 2017-10-21T16:39:30Z beach: clhs progn 2017-10-21T16:39:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm 2017-10-21T16:39:39Z beach: It's a special operator. 2017-10-21T16:39:54Z SaganMan: ah operator 2017-10-21T16:40:11Z SaganMan: I forgot the name of that operator. 2017-10-21T16:40:43Z nhandler joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:41:11Z SaganMan: thanks peeps 2017-10-21T16:47:04Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T16:49:54Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:52:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-21T16:59:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T16:59:40Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:01:03Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:01:25Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T17:03:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T17:04:12Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:05:16Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:09:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T17:09:43Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:13:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T17:14:09Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:25:30Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:29:26Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:30:08Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-21T17:31:21Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-21T17:33:45Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:34:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T17:34:41Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:38:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T17:39:15Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:44:03Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:48:12Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-21T17:48:26Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-21T17:49:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T17:49:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:50:14Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-21T17:50:42Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:53:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T17:54:10Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:57:27Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-21T17:57:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-21T17:59:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T17:59:55Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:01:00Z makkron joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:01:05Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T18:03:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T18:04:11Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:04:13Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:16:52Z toy joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:17:34Z gacepa joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:21:11Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:21:50Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-21T18:21:54Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T18:22:50Z u0_a118_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:25:27Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T18:25:57Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:27:59Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:28:22Z toy joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:30:38Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T18:36:18Z _death: hmm.. (defmacro frogn (&body forms) (cond ((null forms) nil) ((null (cdr forms)) (car forms)) (t (let ((whatever (gensym))) `((lambda (,whatever) (declare (ignore ,whatever)) (frogn ,@(cdr forms))) ,(car forms)))))) 2017-10-21T18:36:40Z _death: I thought http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html might show something similar, but apparently not 2017-10-21T18:36:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T18:39:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T18:39:41Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:41:11Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:42:51Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:43:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T18:43:56Z Bike: (defmacro progn (&body forms) `(tagbody ,@(loop for form in forms when (symbolp form) collect `(identity ,form) else collect form))) "makes you think" 2017-10-21T18:44:11Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:44:12Z Bike: oh guess you have to return the last form too 2017-10-21T18:44:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T18:44:41Z Shinmera: :thunk: 2017-10-21T18:44:41Z Colleen: http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/thinkface.png 2017-10-21T18:44:52Z Bike: (defmacro progn (&body forms) `(catch ,(gensym) ,@forms)) 2017-10-21T18:45:03Z Bike: ',(gensym), wow i keep fuckin up 2017-10-21T18:46:34Z _death: implicit progn is cheating :) 2017-10-21T18:47:11Z Shinmera: I mean if we're doing implicit progns: (defmacro progn (&body forms) `((lambda()NIL,@forms))) 2017-10-21T18:48:49Z Shinmera: Bonus points if you know why the NIL there is necessary 2017-10-21T18:48:55Z _death: docstrings 2017-10-21T18:48:58Z Shinmera: Nope 2017-10-21T18:49:13Z Bike: putting in something allcaps so you k now it's lisp and not scheme or whatever 2017-10-21T18:49:27Z Shinmera: ((lambda()"a")) => "a" 2017-10-21T18:49:51Z Shinmera: The reason is declarations of course. 2017-10-21T18:50:36Z Bike: (demfacro locally (&body forms) `((lambda () ,@forms))), very convenient 2017-10-21T18:51:31Z _death: (progn "a" "b") would create a docstring 2017-10-21T18:51:43Z Bike: but ti wouldn't matter, would it? 2017-10-21T18:51:54Z bkst joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:52:49Z Shinmera: The string might stick around longer as the docstring instead of being eliminated. Terrifying. 2017-10-21T18:52:58Z Bike: D: 2017-10-21T18:53:24Z _death: yes Shinmera.. that's why I mentioned.. but I also seem to recall some issue besides that.. lemme check 2017-10-21T18:53:45Z Shinmera: It's specified that if the only form in the body of a lambda is a string, it is not treated as the docstring. 2017-10-21T18:54:06Z Shinmera: So the thing that would cause people to trip up in terms of semantics is not the issue. 2017-10-21T18:56:41Z postit quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-21T18:57:49Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T18:57:56Z postit joined #lisp 2017-10-21T18:58:22Z _death: Shinmera: yes, I knew about that, but I'm still looking for why I feel there was another issue 2017-10-21T18:59:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T18:59:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:04:19Z yaocl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:08:02Z _death: meanwhile found an interesting KMP message.. apparently the syntax for bit vectors was once #"..." 2017-10-21T19:10:03Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:10:47Z _death: anyway, the issue was http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dk.htm .. but this is about interaction with declarations 2017-10-21T19:13:28Z _death: also, I have "fallen off the end" of the CLHS 2017-10-21T19:13:47Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T19:14:00Z _death: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Front/NoNext.htm 2017-10-21T19:14:14Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:14:30Z Shinmera: Graphics design is not the CLHS' strength, I gotta say. 2017-10-21T19:15:28Z u0_a118_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T19:15:33Z yaocl_ quit (Quit: yaocl_) 2017-10-21T19:16:18Z _death: looks good enough in eww (or w3m-emacs, which I used before eww existed) 2017-10-21T19:16:37Z void_gazer joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:17:12Z richardjdare quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T19:17:46Z void_gazer quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T19:20:23Z richardjdare joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:24:47Z Digit quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-21T19:33:33Z kjak joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:33:39Z kjak quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T19:34:10Z kjak joined #lisp 2017-10-21T19:42:10Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T19:53:31Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T19:59:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T19:59:38Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:00:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:01:07Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:03:56Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:08:26Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:08:47Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T20:09:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:15:26Z jmercouris: Shinmera: CLHS is an absolute work of art- how dare you 2017-10-21T20:15:59Z jmercouris: I honestly think just a re-theme of the CLHS would do wonders for making it feel modern 2017-10-21T20:16:20Z Shinmera: Yeah, well, the best shot at that is CLUS. The HTML is so unstructured you'd have to style every page manually. 2017-10-21T20:16:21Z jmercouris: Is the data for the CLHS available in plain-text? 2017-10-21T20:16:26Z Shinmera: *The HTML of the CLHS 2017-10-21T20:17:37Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-21T20:17:46Z jmercouris patiently waits for ultraspec 2017-10-21T20:18:06Z whoman: i would have imagined that CLHS could be dumped from any CL-comforming code base. would be nice 2017-10-21T20:19:26Z jmercouris: whoman: I think if the task was trivial, it would have been done 2017-10-21T20:19:27Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T20:19:51Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: see http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html 2017-10-21T20:20:48Z whoman: like if we just move the doc strings from the html into the code, with implementation specific notes kept in tact, or... at least to seperate the core guts of CLHS from html if it is not already. isnt it generated from a less noisy format ? 2017-10-21T20:20:58Z jmercouris: Ah wow, it's available in tex nice 2017-10-21T20:24:54Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T20:34:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:34:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T20:34:41Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:36:26Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:40:15Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T20:42:22Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:43:47Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T20:44:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:46:15Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:47:52Z jmercouris: Alright, so I have an interesting problem, let's say I have two lisp files, they provide the exact same functions, but sometimes I want to compile with file A, and sometimes with file B. I don't want to have to change any of the other code in my codebase as the functions will have the same name. How should I do this? 2017-10-21T20:48:34Z jmercouris: For example, can I have an ASD file that accepts flags? 2017-10-21T20:49:20Z oleo: (compile-file (load "blah.lisp")) 2017-10-21T20:49:25Z pjb: jmercouris: the simpliest is to have two different asd files! 2017-10-21T20:49:49Z jmercouris: hmmm two different asd files is a very simple solution indeed 2017-10-21T20:49:57Z pjb: jmercouris: then the second simpliest way is to push a specific feature in *features* and test for it to select one file or the other with #+/#- in a single asd file. 2017-10-21T20:49:58Z jmercouris: the only issue then is whenever I add a single dependnecy, I must add it to both files 2017-10-21T20:50:03Z pjb: jmercouris: but this has a number of problems. 2017-10-21T20:50:18Z pjb: jmercouris: it's better to have features in one of your own package to avoid collision. 2017-10-21T20:50:28Z pjb: jmercouris: therefore now you need to define a package before loading your system! 2017-10-21T20:50:47Z jmercouris: hmmm, yeah, I'm not sure that's a good idea 2017-10-21T20:50:51Z jmercouris: it feels like going down a rabbit hole 2017-10-21T20:51:17Z pjb: Or you could use :jmercouris-file-selector as feature, it should be unique enough I'd guess. 2017-10-21T20:51:23Z oleo: you could have some :random in the :components spec 2017-10-21T20:51:28Z oleo: say for two files 2017-10-21T20:51:41Z jmercouris: what does :random do? 2017-10-21T20:51:48Z oleo: or :one-of 2017-10-21T20:51:58Z jmercouris: what does :one-of do? 2017-10-21T20:52:04Z jmercouris: I've never heard of these constructs 2017-10-21T20:52:09Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-21T20:52:17Z jmercouris: I could also manually edit the asd file when compiling for one system or the other 2017-10-21T20:52:22Z jmercouris: maybe I'm making a problem where there doesn't need to be 2017-10-21T20:52:22Z oleo: choose one or the other file from the :components 2017-10-21T20:52:31Z jmercouris: How is the choice made? 2017-10-21T20:52:58Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: you want flags in *features* 2017-10-21T20:53:04Z pjb: also, having multiform asd definitions may be a problem in itself, since reading the asd file, and processing the definition is independent. 2017-10-21T20:53:13Z jackdaniel: such component needs to be either included as #+feature (:file "foo") 2017-10-21T20:53:16Z pjb: So it may much better to avoid #+/#- in asd files. 2017-10-21T20:53:18Z oleo: maybe with :preference "filea, fileb" or so 2017-10-21T20:53:31Z oleo: to give some order on the calls 2017-10-21T20:53:32Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T20:53:33Z jackdaniel: or as (:file "foo" :if-feature :feature) 2017-10-21T20:53:44Z pjb: jmercouris: you may have two asd files to select your files, and both can depend on a common system (defined in a third asd file) that wouldn't depend on them. 2017-10-21T20:53:59Z oleo: i mean it could be implemented for sure 2017-10-21T20:54:09Z oleo: but that would be the asdf implementors 2017-10-21T20:54:13Z pjb: But of course, all the files that depend on those alternative files will have to be in the duplicate systems. 2017-10-21T20:54:52Z oleo: or even a statistical frequency 2017-10-21T20:54:53Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T20:55:04Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:55:09Z jmercouris: pjb: that is sound like a good idea 2017-10-21T20:55:18Z oleo: like in 30,70, or 40,60 etc 2017-10-21T20:55:36Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-21T20:55:48Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: flags in features? is that some global var? 2017-10-21T20:56:01Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-21T20:56:02Z jackdaniel: *features* is a global variable, yes 2017-10-21T20:56:09Z pjb: yes. 2017-10-21T20:56:26Z jackdaniel: and reader peeks there if it encounters #+ / #- syntax 2017-10-21T20:56:44Z emaczen: so I'm able to cffi:define-foreign-library and cffi:use-foreign-library and my defcfun evaluates without a problem, but when I go to call the defcfun I get a "Can't resolve foreign symbol" condition 2017-10-21T20:56:48Z jmercouris: so something like (setf *features* #+"something?")? 2017-10-21T20:56:55Z pjb: (pushnew :foo *features*) (quote (#+foo a #-foo b)) #| --> (a) |# 2017-10-21T20:57:00Z jmercouris: Ah it is a list 2017-10-21T20:57:02Z jmercouris: ok that makes way more sense 2017-10-21T20:57:04Z emaczen: Everything worked on OSX, I'm trying to my code to work on linux now 2017-10-21T20:57:39Z pjb: (defpackage "JMERCOURIS-FEATURES" (:use) (:export "FOO")) (pushnew 'jmercouris-features:foo *features*) (quote (#+jmercouris-features:foo a #-jmercouris-features:foo b)) #| --> (a) |# 2017-10-21T20:57:40Z emaczen: what would be the common error here? 2017-10-21T20:57:44Z jmercouris: and so one last question, do global vars have package namespaces? 2017-10-21T20:57:59Z jmercouris: or are they truly global? 2017-10-21T20:58:05Z pjb: global. 2017-10-21T20:58:33Z jmercouris: okay, thank you for the help! 2017-10-21T20:58:34Z pjb: jmercouris: your question is meaningless: variables don't have package. Only symbols have packages. And symbols may or may not name a variable. 2017-10-21T20:58:40Z motersen joined #lisp 2017-10-21T20:58:44Z jmercouris: wait vars dont have package? 2017-10-21T20:58:48Z jmercouris: but vars are a symbol no? 2017-10-21T20:58:55Z pjb: Eg. global variables are named by a symbol, but lexical variables have no name (once compiled). 2017-10-21T20:59:05Z pjb: No variables are variables. 2017-10-21T20:59:09Z pjb: They're not symbols. 2017-10-21T20:59:25Z jmercouris: I thought symbol was anything that the compiler must keep a hash to 2017-10-21T20:59:35Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-21T20:59:36Z oleo: no 2017-10-21T20:59:39Z pjb: Symbols are only used to name global variables, and to refer to lexical variables in the source. 2017-10-21T20:59:44Z oleo: symbol is a DS itself 2017-10-21T21:00:17Z pjb: Once compiled, there's only the lexical variable, no symbol anymore. This is why you cannot use EVAL with a form refering a lexical variable! 2017-10-21T21:00:28Z pjb: (let ((foo 42)) (eval 'foo)) #| ERROR: Unbound variable: foo |# 2017-10-21T21:00:34Z jmercouris: Ok I've read about lexical variable many times already 2017-10-21T21:00:39Z jmercouris: and the concept is still not clear to me 2017-10-21T21:00:46Z jmercouris: It is just a binding to variable that is temporary? 2017-10-21T21:00:48Z jmercouris: is this the meaning? 2017-10-21T21:00:51Z pjb: Because the foo naming the lexical variable doesn't exist anymore once the compiler did its work. 2017-10-21T21:01:28Z pjb: Actually "binding" and "variable" are basically exchangeable terms. 2017-10-21T21:02:00Z jmercouris: They are both simply references to a location in memory 2017-10-21T21:02:01Z oleo: so a binding is a binding of a symbol to a value 2017-10-21T21:02:09Z pjb: Nope. 2017-10-21T21:02:15Z jmercouris: Now you are starting to confuse me 2017-10-21T21:02:20Z oleo: hmmm 2017-10-21T21:02:23Z jmercouris: if a binding is a variable, and a variable is a pointer to an address 2017-10-21T21:02:29Z jmercouris: how can it be then that a binding is not a pointer to an address? 2017-10-21T21:03:04Z oleo: well he said it already 2017-10-21T21:03:12Z oleo: they are references to memory 2017-10-21T21:03:15Z pjb: Who said variables where pointer to an address? 2017-10-21T21:03:34Z pjb: You have strange notions in your brains. Perhaps you've learned some other language before lisp? You'd better forget them first! 2017-10-21T21:03:48Z pjb: jmercouris: use the CLHS glossary… 2017-10-21T21:03:59Z jmercouris: The glossary is so terse I cannot understand it 2017-10-21T21:04:12Z jmercouris: The only definitions that I can maybe sometimes perhaps understand, underneath full moons are those from practical common lisp 2017-10-21T21:04:53Z pjb: binding is the superclass of variable, function, etc. 2017-10-21T21:05:00Z pjb: a variable is a binding. 2017-10-21T21:05:14Z oleo: and a function is a binding 2017-10-21T21:05:17Z pjb: yes. 2017-10-21T21:05:21Z pjb: a named function at least… 2017-10-21T21:05:29Z oleo: ya 2017-10-21T21:05:35Z oleo: unnamed ones are dynamic 2017-10-21T21:05:44Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-21T21:06:23Z jmercouris: I'm reareading: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html maybe it will make sense this time around 2017-10-21T21:06:26Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-21T21:07:51Z emaczen: my question definitely got lost... What do I do with CFFI when I can define and use a foreign library but my defcstruct when evaluated says "Can't resolve foreign symbol"? 2017-10-21T21:08:05Z emaczen: I meant defcfun 2017-10-21T21:08:15Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-21T21:08:17Z pjb: load the foreign library first! 2017-10-21T21:08:41Z oleo: yo 2017-10-21T21:08:43Z pjb: emaczen: notice that you need to load it when defining the function, AND when calling the function. 2017-10-21T21:08:57Z pjb: ie. both at compilation time, and at run-time. 2017-10-21T21:09:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-21T21:09:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T21:10:02Z emaczen: pjb: I have this working on OSX, and I don't know what you mean by load? I just have two toplevel forms: cffi:define-foreign-library and cffi:use-foreign-library 2017-10-21T21:10:13Z emaczen: I'm having troubles with getting it work on linux 2017-10-21T21:11:23Z oleo: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dLoading.html#Tutorial_002dLoading 2017-10-21T21:12:10Z emaczen: oleo: Yeah, that's what I did on OSX but it won't work on Linux 2017-10-21T21:12:33Z emaczen: I used a symlink, maybe I'll try the :or with the version instead 2017-10-21T21:13:34Z oleo: how did you specify your arch ? 2017-10-21T21:13:35Z pjb: toplevel forms are executed at :load-toplevel and at :execute time; :load-toplevel is when you load the .fasl file (or in the case of ecl, when you load the executable). :execute time is when you load the source file, so usually not that time, if you compile. 2017-10-21T21:13:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T21:14:09Z pjb: If you don't use ecl, but an image saving implementation, then the load-toplevel time is when you load your system before saving the image. So it's too early. 2017-10-21T21:14:32Z pjb: You have to have a initialize function that you call at run-time, after booting the lisp image! where you can load the shared libraries. 2017-10-21T21:15:32Z emaczen: I'm using CCL on both 2017-10-21T21:15:38Z pjb: Even with ecl, it's better to put all that kind of toplevel code in an initialize function, and call it explicitely when it's needed. 2017-10-21T21:15:58Z pjb: emaczen: then you are in the saved image case. 2017-10-21T21:15:59Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T21:16:28Z pjb: Don't do toplevel forms, put everything in a initialize function and call it before (or at the begining of) your main function. 2017-10-21T21:16:58Z emaczen: pjb: got it, I wonder if I did this early on on OSX and something is cached and that is why it still works, and I just don't remember 2017-10-21T21:17:17Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-21T21:17:18Z pjb: You can't see the problem until you save the image and boot it. 2017-10-21T21:17:33Z pjb: So while developping, you're oblivious to the problem. 2017-10-21T21:18:16Z emaczen: I didn't try saving anything, I just started up a REPL like I do on OSX 2017-10-21T21:19:21Z pjb: Now, there may also be differences in the set of functions available in libraries on linux and on osx. 2017-10-21T21:19:45Z pjb: Check the presence of the symbol in the library with nm(1). 2017-10-21T21:19:59Z pjb: nm -m # IIRC. 2017-10-21T21:20:50Z pjb: or: nm -g # on linux. 2017-10-21T21:22:52Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-21T21:23:26Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-21T21:24:57Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-21T21:26:09Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T21:31:32Z emaczen: pjb: this should work for .so files too? nm -g libopencv_core.so.3.1.0 when evaluted just tells me "no symbols" 2017-10-21T21:31:56Z oleo: err 2017-10-21T21:32:04Z oleo: did you strip symbols ? 2017-10-21T21:32:10Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-21T21:32:23Z emaczen: I just dnf installed it 2017-10-21T21:33:05Z oleo: what is your symbol called ? 2017-10-21T21:33:22Z jmercouris: emaczen: just of curiosity, what is it you are working on, do you have a link? 2017-10-21T21:34:46Z emaczen: No link, I'm just trying to capture video frames. There are mostly C libraries to do this, so I've been fooling around with CFFI 2017-10-21T21:35:13Z emaczen: I also got ABCL to do what I want, but there was a significant lag, so I'm trying to do it in CCL 2017-10-21T21:37:27Z pjb: on linux so files may be indirect: they contain text telling where to find the actual so file. 2017-10-21T21:37:28Z emaczen: oleo: cvCreateCameraCapture 2017-10-21T21:37:31Z milanj_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-21T21:37:47Z emaczen: pjb: a symlink? 2017-10-21T21:37:52Z pjb: A text file. 2017-10-21T21:38:10Z pjb: cffi used to be unable to load them, I provided a patch a few years ago, I hope it's included now. Check that you're actually able to load them. 2017-10-21T21:38:16Z pjb: But for nm, you have to find the actual library file. 2017-10-21T21:38:41Z pjb: cat libopencv_core.so.3.1.0 to see what library is loaded. 2017-10-21T21:40:23Z oleo: ya 2017-10-21T21:40:27Z oleo: on which linux are you ? 2017-10-21T21:41:02Z emaczen: pjb: using cat just displays a bunch of junk bytes 2017-10-21T21:41:07Z emaczen: oleo: Fedora 2017-10-21T21:41:52Z oleo: do you have your package manager open and can check the packages associated with that name ? 2017-10-21T21:42:13Z oleo: do you have any other packages with names like packge-dbg or package-dev ? 2017-10-21T21:42:27Z oleo: anyway those are debug symbols 2017-10-21T21:42:28Z emaczen: I downloaded the devel files 2017-10-21T21:42:41Z oleo: and normally the debug symbols are hid anyway unless you use nm -a 2017-10-21T21:43:01Z oleo: the exported ones maybe stripped tho 2017-10-21T21:43:09Z oleo: and the dynamics ones you get with -D 2017-10-21T21:49:04Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-21T21:53:56Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-21T21:54:37Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:00:38Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T22:00:56Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:04:25Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T22:05:53Z pjb: well, if it's binary, then it's the library. if nm doesn't show any external symbol, perhaps it has none… 2017-10-21T22:06:32Z oleo: right 2017-10-21T22:06:54Z oleo: and in case of shared object files most don't 2017-10-21T22:07:03Z oleo: readelf -Ws blah.so 2017-10-21T22:07:08Z oleo: or nm -D blah.so 2017-10-21T22:07:20Z oleo: those contain mostly dynamic symbols 2017-10-21T22:08:01Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:12:02Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.3.1) 2017-10-21T22:13:52Z Guest51277 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:21:17Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T22:23:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-21T22:33:27Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-21T22:33:51Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:39:16Z Guest51277 quit (Quit: Guest51277) 2017-10-21T22:39:43Z Guest51277 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:43:47Z Guest51277 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T22:44:11Z Guest51277 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:48:35Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-21T22:51:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-21T22:54:36Z richardjdare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-21T22:56:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T22:58:57Z emaczen: oleo: most don't what? 2017-10-21T23:00:36Z emaczen: oleo: with nm -D I found a bunch of symbols of the form cvCreate but not the one I am looking for 2017-10-21T23:01:07Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:03:06Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:03:21Z emaczen: the C opencv API has been deprecated? Maybe it is totally unsupported on Linux? 2017-10-21T23:04:13Z dmiles: does someone have the latest benches of lisp impls? 2017-10-21T23:04:27Z dmiles: CL-BENCH i assume is quite old 2017-10-21T23:06:16Z pjb: emaczen: often, libraries define API in terms of C macros… 2017-10-21T23:06:29Z pjb: of course, from lisp you cannot use C macros, you have to call the actual function. 2017-10-21T23:06:29Z paul0 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:06:43Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:06:43Z emaczen: pjb: I have this working on OSX 2017-10-21T23:07:03Z pjb: #ifdef LINUX/#ifdef Darwin are often used too… 2017-10-21T23:07:04Z emaczen: Or are you saying the libraries are that different across machines? 2017-10-21T23:07:26Z emaczen: pjb: maybe I'll try v4l2... 2017-10-21T23:07:29Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:07:42Z pjb: emaczen: look, what I'm trying to say, is do not use the fucking C libraries! Write the library in Lisp and use a lisp library! 2017-10-21T23:09:18Z pjb: FFI is only problems over problems… 2017-10-21T23:10:32Z emaczen: pjb: where would you even begin with capturing images? 2017-10-21T23:10:40Z aeth: pjb: Except at some point libraries are necessary, such as OpenGL+SDL if you're doing (OS-portable) 3D. 2017-10-21T23:10:44Z aeth: (Or something like SDL) 2017-10-21T23:10:54Z pjb: Use the USB API to get the data directly from the camera :-) 2017-10-21T23:11:34Z pjb: Well, what you need on unix, is open/ioctl/read/write/close 2017-10-21T23:13:25Z emaczen: this should all be streams, so we already have open read write and close. 2017-10-21T23:13:41Z emaczen: So don't I have to use CFFI to get to ioctl? 2017-10-21T23:13:57Z pjb: Yes, but that's the only one :-) 2017-10-21T23:14:16Z Guest51277 quit (Quit: Guest51277) 2017-10-21T23:14:38Z emaczen: doesn't ccl use FFI for the cocoa-bridge? 2017-10-21T23:14:43Z Guest51277 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:15:00Z pjb: yes. 2017-10-21T23:16:07Z emaczen: Once I figure this out, I'm heading for that 2017-10-21T23:16:28Z emaczen: Well, it is pretty much always conditional 2017-10-21T23:17:22Z emaczen: I tried ABCL with all of this and got it to work but I have a 5 second lag, I'm not sure whose fault that lag is, but I'm blaming ABCL right now which is why I am trying this 2017-10-21T23:17:27Z emaczen: I have a lot of fun cut out for myself 2017-10-21T23:17:30Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-21T23:18:48Z Guest51277 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T23:19:15Z Guest51277 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:24:16Z Guest51277 quit (Quit: Guest51277) 2017-10-21T23:24:43Z Guest51277 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:28:47Z Guest51277 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-21T23:29:48Z Guest51277 joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:30:49Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:31:23Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-21T23:32:02Z makkron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-21T23:32:21Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:32:58Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:36:38Z Guest51277 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-21T23:41:14Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-21T23:42:44Z dmiles: well good news performance wise at lest for FIB https://pastebin.com/e3icB3Mh 2017-10-21T23:43:09Z dmiles: Are the times consisten between SBCL,ECL and CLISP ? 2017-10-21T23:45:06Z dmiles: I know this is a pretty lame benchmark 2017-10-21T23:46:35Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:47:40Z VzlaAngel joined #lisp 2017-10-21T23:49:34Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-21T23:52:12Z pierpa: the CLs times look plausible. I'm surprised only at swi being twice as fast as clisp :) 2017-10-21T23:54:00Z dmiles: these are all uncompiled as well 2017-10-21T23:57:41Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-21T23:58:48Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:00:01Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T00:00:20Z yaocl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:02:17Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T00:03:54Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:04:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-22T00:04:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:05:06Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-22T00:08:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T00:09:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:12:05Z brucem joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:14:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-22T00:14:19Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T00:15:13Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:16:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T00:16:35Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T00:17:38Z pierpa: aha! 2017-10-22T00:18:05Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:18:14Z hel-io quit 2017-10-22T00:18:49Z babalua quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T00:19:03Z brucem joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:19:05Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:19:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:25:12Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-22T00:29:14Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T00:30:16Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:30:20Z VzlaAngel left #lisp 2017-10-22T00:30:52Z dmiles: ABCL came out ot 49.587secs 2017-10-22T00:32:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:39:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-22T00:39:43Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:43:13Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-22T00:43:41Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:43:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T00:44:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:44:35Z brucem joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:44:41Z emaczen: dmiles: what is the test? 2017-10-22T00:46:33Z Rawriful quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T00:46:41Z dmiles: (defun fib (n)(if (> n 1)(+ (fib (- n 1))(fib (- n 2)))1)) (time (fib 38)) 2017-10-22T00:48:05Z emaczen: 63245986 --- CCL did it in a half a second 2017-10-22T00:49:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-22T00:49:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:50:57Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T00:53:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T00:54:10Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:54:30Z pierpa: but not on the same machine dmiles is using. 2017-10-22T00:54:45Z dmiles will try in a sec 2017-10-22T00:55:45Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T00:56:11Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-22T00:56:27Z emaczen: I'm running it on ABCL too right now 2017-10-22T00:56:42Z emaczen: 53.145 seconds real time 2017-10-22T00:56:42Z emaczen: 2088 cons cells 2017-10-22T00:57:49Z pierpa: dmiles: do you know about optimization declarations in CL? you are using each implementation default I guess? 2017-10-22T00:58:27Z dmiles: oh true yes .. i really should make it fair 2017-10-22T00:58:40Z dmiles: does CL-BENCH tend to make everyone fair this way? 2017-10-22T00:58:48Z pierpa: no idea 2017-10-22T00:59:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-22T00:59:32Z dmiles: i recall it seting optikiaion flags.. but i dont know if they are what every impl listens to 2017-10-22T00:59:42Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:02:41Z dmiles: yeah CCL terned out 0.428224 seconds SBCL 1.132000 2017-10-22T01:03:20Z dmiles: but i am not settign the optimizations and i am sure if i was making a lisp when the user enters the repl i'd make safety first 2017-10-22T01:03:27Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T01:03:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T01:04:03Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:04:14Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:04:27Z dmiles: the differnce between safety speed and not in 4x-8x diference for wam-cl (comparity when i add typechecking) 2017-10-22T01:07:02Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-22T01:09:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-22T01:09:39Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:11:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:11:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T01:12:42Z pierpa: you could try adding at top level (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety X)) ;; for X in 0..3 2017-10-22T01:13:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:13:47Z babalua quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T01:13:53Z dmiles: ok for each witll do (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety 1))) 2017-10-22T01:14:06Z dmiles: and test with (defun fib (n)(declare (optimize speed (safety 0) (debug 0)) (fixnum n)) (if (<= (1- n) 0) n (the fixnum (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2)))))) (fib 38) 2017-10-22T01:14:13Z babalua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:15:08Z pierpa: it makes more sense to test with safety 0 or 3 though 2017-10-22T01:15:21Z Josh_2: you could compile 2017-10-22T01:15:30Z Josh_2: That might make some just a lot faster 2017-10-22T01:15:34Z pierpa: because what safety 1 means varies with the implementation 2017-10-22T01:15:42Z dmiles: ah 2017-10-22T01:17:06Z Bike: safety 0 and 3 vary too. certain things have to happen in safe code, but it's hardly a complete specification 2017-10-22T01:17:15Z manny8888 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:17:42Z pierpa: safety 3 means safe as mandated by the spec, safety 0 means as unsafe as the implementation allow 2017-10-22T01:17:44Z dmiles: sbcl went from 1.3 seconds to 0.34 2017-10-22T01:18:06Z dmiles: (safety 0 in that case) 2017-10-22T01:18:14Z manny8888 quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T01:19:18Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:19:20Z pierpa: (don't bother testing clisp with optimization declaration, they're ignored in clisp) 2017-10-22T01:19:24Z basket joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:19:41Z dmiles: hehe it got worse so i am reruning :P 2017-10-22T01:19:48Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-22T01:19:53Z dmiles thiugh i messed it up 2017-10-22T01:19:54Z pierpa: it should make no difference, actually 2017-10-22T01:20:06Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-22T01:20:26Z dmiles: well i was many levels in and not sure how many times i redified it in that isntance 2017-10-22T01:21:28Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T01:23:06Z dmiles: ok it stayed the same with and without (as at least my cpu is not fluxuating as much as my last irc message might have made us htink) 2017-10-22T01:23:16Z babalua quit (Quit: babalua) 2017-10-22T01:25:10Z pierpa: good :) 2017-10-22T01:31:58Z dmiles: SBCL varries quite a bit and so do ccl.. i know ABCL really pays attention to these directivers but its not paying off 2017-10-22T01:34:03Z dmiles: though i know AQBCL compiled code is many magnitudes faster at time 2017-10-22T01:34:52Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:35:14Z JuanDaugherty: it seemed instantaneous in sbcl here 2017-10-22T01:35:35Z dmiles: for SBCL vs CCL i had to get up to 41 2017-10-22T01:35:42Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:35:45Z JuanDaugherty: "This is SBCL 1.3.3.debian" 2017-10-22T01:36:01Z dmiles: same here 2017-10-22T01:36:35Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T01:37:34Z dmiles: so my two tests are.. 2017-10-22T01:37:49Z dmiles: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety 0)))(defun fib (n)(declare (optimize speed (safety 0) (debug 0)) (fixnum n)) (if (<= (1- n) 0) n (the fixnum (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2)))))) (time (fib 41)) 2017-10-22T01:37:53Z dmiles: vs 2017-10-22T01:37:58Z yaocl_ quit (Quit: yaocl_) 2017-10-22T01:38:06Z dmiles: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))(defun fib (n)(declare (optimize (safety 3) (debug 0)) (fixnum n)) (if (<= (1- n) 0) n (the fixnum (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2)))))) (time (fib 41)) 2017-10-22T01:38:37Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:39:04Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T01:39:16Z JuanDaugherty: took noticeably longer and repoted 1.02 s 2017-10-22T01:39:45Z JuanDaugherty: *reported, and didn change to 38 2017-10-22T01:39:52Z Josh_2: You are missing using (the ..) 2017-10-22T01:39:52Z pierpa: for maximum speed you may also try to declare the type of the function 2017-10-22T01:40:00Z Josh_2: O wait 2017-10-22T01:40:02Z Josh_2: I can't read 2017-10-22T01:40:06Z dmiles: my range was 0.344 to 1.6 2017-10-22T01:41:37Z pierpa: (declaim (ftype (function (fixnum) fixnum) fib) 2017-10-22T01:41:51Z dmiles: thx 2017-10-22T01:42:14Z pierpa: probably sbcl will benefit, the other impementations, I don't know 2017-10-22T01:42:25Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-22T01:43:34Z Josh_2: Takes 4.8 seconds on mine 2017-10-22T01:44:42Z Josh_2: maybe am doing something wrong :O 2017-10-22T01:45:42Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T01:49:05Z dmiles: its hard to know the differnce between the meaning of balls to the wall with type information vs what the anyhting else would mean 2017-10-22T01:50:41Z dmiles: is kinda what pierpa was saying 2017-10-22T01:55:09Z dmiles: i mean we know what (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety 0) 2017-10-22T01:56:16Z dmiles: and (ftype (function (fixnum) fixnum) fib) means.. but the lack of ftype and different numbers than the above.. also this sometimes only is meaningfull for compilation 2017-10-22T01:56:34Z Josh_2: dmiles: that actually made mine slower on SBCL 2017-10-22T01:56:39Z Josh_2: again, could be doing something wrong haha 2017-10-22T01:56:47Z pierpa: hmmm 2017-10-22T02:01:28Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-22T02:21:38Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-10-22T02:32:03Z zmt00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T02:43:46Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T02:44:34Z zmt00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T02:45:06Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T02:45:22Z zmt00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T02:47:30Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T02:51:33Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-22T03:03:26Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T03:03:27Z stylewarning: Hello folks 2017-10-22T03:11:35Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T03:12:32Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-22T03:12:35Z beach: Hello stylewarning. 2017-10-22T03:13:28Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-22T03:14:29Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-22T03:16:48Z stylewarning: I have some exciting news. We have some scientific simulation code in Lisp that beats C++, where the C++ code has non-standard Intel ISA SIMD intrinsics. 2017-10-22T03:17:12Z beach: Great! 2017-10-22T03:18:21Z fouric: :D 2017-10-22T03:18:28Z fouric: stylewarning: are you able to share with us? 2017-10-22T03:18:35Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-22T03:18:39Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-22T03:18:57Z ryan_vw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T03:19:03Z asarch: From https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/static/documents/mcclim.pdf 2017-10-22T03:19:36Z stylewarning: fouric I think I’ll write up a note about it, because there are some lessons to be learned 2017-10-22T03:19:45Z asarch: It says I need to load the library (asdf:load-system ’clim-examples) (clim-demo:demodemo) in order to run the examples 2017-10-22T03:20:03Z asarch: Question: what interpreter? SBCL, CLIPS? 2017-10-22T03:20:22Z asarch: *CLISP? 2017-10-22T03:20:40Z stylewarning: To cut to the chase: if you’re just going to write loops, you’re not going to beat C, but what you might be able to do is take advantage of the fact that many C codes are more dynamic than many think 2017-10-22T03:20:47Z beach: asarch: It probably doesn't matter much what implementation you use. SBCL generates better code though. 2017-10-22T03:21:28Z beach: asarch: But SBCL is not an "interpreter". We call it an "implementation". SBCL compiles each interaction form to native code before executing it. 2017-10-22T03:22:00Z fouric: stylewarning: i have a school-friend who is performance-obsessed and insists that efficiency is the most important thing in any programming language or system 2017-10-22T03:22:04Z fouric: any chance i could see the code 2017-10-22T03:22:17Z fouric: so that i can throw it at him? 2017-10-22T03:22:35Z stylewarning: fouric, unfortunately it’s closed source, but in any event, it’s also full of complex quantum mechanical calculations 2017-10-22T03:22:38Z asarch: This is what I get from CLISP: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/565434 2017-10-22T03:22:45Z fouric: that's unfortunate 2017-10-22T03:22:49Z asarch: Yeah, my mistake beach 2017-10-22T03:22:51Z asarch: Sorry 2017-10-22T03:22:55Z fouric: still, :D on results!!! 2017-10-22T03:23:04Z fouric: and ty for that optimization idea 2017-10-22T03:23:06Z beach: asarch: We don't use CLISP for developing McCLIM. 2017-10-22T03:23:48Z beach: asarch: It looks like ASDF is not bundled with CLISP. It is with almost every other implementation. 2017-10-22T03:24:14Z asarch takes notes... 2017-10-22T03:24:29Z beach: asarch: McCLIM uses a lot of generic functions. I am not so sure about the performance of CLISP on a program that heavy on generic dispatch. 2017-10-22T03:24:48Z asarch: This is from sbcl: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/565435 2017-10-22T03:25:40Z asarch: So, SBCL over CLISP? 2017-10-22T03:25:47Z beach: You probably need to put (require :asdf) in your .sbclrc 2017-10-22T03:25:54Z beach: Everybody does. 2017-10-22T03:26:02Z asarch: Thank you beach 2017-10-22T03:26:08Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-10-22T03:26:18Z stylewarning: fouric, your friend seems like he or she needs to be convinced that almost never to-the-metal performance matters 2017-10-22T03:26:29Z beach: asarch: There are not McCLIM-related problems. You would have the same problem compiling just about any software. 2017-10-22T03:27:43Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-22T03:27:47Z asarch: Ok 2017-10-22T03:27:53Z beach: asarch: You should also install Quicklisp. And it is highly recommended that you then follow the Quicklisp instructions for installing SLIME. 2017-10-22T03:28:38Z asarch: Ok 2017-10-22T03:29:15Z asarch: SLIME for Emacs, right? 2017-10-22T03:29:21Z beach: Right. 2017-10-22T03:29:31Z asarch: Ok 2017-10-22T03:29:35Z asarch takes notes... 2017-10-22T03:29:46Z beach: The Quicklisp documentation mentions a system called slime-helper that you can use. 2017-10-22T03:30:11Z astronavt joined #lisp 2017-10-22T03:30:49Z astronavt: what's the idiomatic lisp way to say "if x is not nil, return x, else return "? 2017-10-22T03:31:13Z asarch: Thank you beach 2017-10-22T03:31:22Z asarch: Thank you very much once again :-) 2017-10-22T03:31:31Z stylewarning: astronavt: (or x other) 2017-10-22T03:31:31Z beach: astronavt (if (null x) x) 2017-10-22T03:31:39Z beach: stylewarning: I strongly disagree. 2017-10-22T03:31:48Z stylewarning: Because of types? 2017-10-22T03:31:54Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-22T03:32:00Z astronavt: they're the same type don't worry (strings) 2017-10-22T03:32:06Z stylewarning: NIL vs false and the expectation for it to be Boolean? 2017-10-22T03:32:08Z astronavt: that's just like "||" in C right? 2017-10-22T03:32:10Z beach: Yes, X is not a Boolean, and OR expects a Boolean. 2017-10-22T03:32:47Z beach: Here X is something else with a default value of NIL. NULL is used to test whether it has the default value. 2017-10-22T03:33:19Z stylewarning: I used to think what you thought, then came to the conclusion that idioms can be a little bit informal, and as long as idioms are understood, they don’t cause much harm 2017-10-22T03:33:58Z astronavt: beach: https://pastebin.com/6eX10YX5 2017-10-22T03:34:22Z astronavt: that's almost exactly what i wrote, modulo (null _) instead of just checking for nil directly 2017-10-22T03:34:27Z astronavt: seems... cumbersome 2017-10-22T03:35:06Z beach: astronavt: I have already stated my opinion, which is based on the Common Lisp style guide by Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig. 2017-10-22T03:35:18Z astronavt: ok, i trust you :D 2017-10-22T03:35:25Z astronavt: (defmacro getenv-with-default ...) ? 2017-10-22T03:35:47Z stylewarning: astronavt: you could use a macro like WHEN-LET from Alexandria, or you could do the crazy thing I suggested and write (or (getenv) “default”), which goes against the above advice (but I personally find perfectly clear) 2017-10-22T03:36:13Z astronavt: stylewarning Guido van Rossum would be proud 2017-10-22T03:38:31Z beach: astronavt: By the way, it is a good rule to always test for the special case in code. That way the maintainer can remove those cases from his or her mental set of issues while reading the rest of the code. That is another reason to start testing for X being NIL. 2017-10-22T03:40:30Z Josh_2: When beach is awake it's normally a good time for me to go to bed... 2017-10-22T03:40:32Z astronavt: beach true. in some sense, the "special case" is having X be set (i'm testing for an environment variable) 2017-10-22T03:40:58Z stylewarning: beach: do you also always say “he or she” instead of “they” :D 2017-10-22T03:41:17Z beach: By "the special case", I mean some values of variables that are "unusual". 2017-10-22T03:41:33Z astronavt: yeah. i see why you'd think of it that way here 2017-10-22T03:41:57Z beach: stylewarning: I guess I do. Never considered using singular they. But I haven't lived in an English-speaking country for 30 years. 2017-10-22T03:45:55Z beach: Hmm. Not quite true. I spent a year in Austin and a year in Auckland during those 30 years. Still, that was 15 years ago or so. 2017-10-22T03:47:38Z astronavt: i always wonder how english sounds to non-native speakers... 2017-10-22T03:51:05Z astronavt: where can i read up on how lisp handles paths? im surprised to see that "home:filename" gives me "$HOME/filename" 2017-10-22T03:52:10Z beach: clhs 19 2017-10-22T03:52:10Z specbot: Filenames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_.htm 2017-10-22T03:52:33Z Josh_2: In PCL there is a large amount dedicated to pathnames 2017-10-22T03:53:30Z astronavt: thanks... and what's the right way to search through the CLHS? download it and use Grep? 2017-10-22T03:54:07Z beach: astronavt: The way it is formated makes that nearly impossible. 2017-10-22T03:57:52Z astronavt: so there has to be a search tool *somewhere* right? or at least download the source? i mean i could use an excuse to get my hands dirty with PageRank and web scraping... 2017-10-22T03:58:05Z Josh_2: I use DuckDuckGo that normally works 2017-10-22T03:59:01Z astronavt: oh cool theres a !clhs bang 2017-10-22T03:59:22Z astronavt: ah and lispworks does have a search ui 2017-10-22T04:01:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:03:19Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T04:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T04:08:33Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T04:09:12Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:11:44Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:19:45Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T04:21:13Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T04:21:32Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:23:12Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:28:02Z hali joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:28:51Z hali left #lisp 2017-10-22T04:38:41Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-22T04:39:25Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:43:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T04:44:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:46:45Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:47:33Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:47:55Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T04:48:07Z guicho_ left #lisp 2017-10-22T04:55:53Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-22T05:08:08Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-22T05:13:03Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T05:14:40Z aeth: I find !l1sp to be a better search of the hyperspec than !clhs imo 2017-10-22T05:18:34Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-22T05:18:45Z borei: hi all 2017-10-22T05:18:53Z emacsoma` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T05:18:58Z basket: borei: Hello 2017-10-22T05:19:21Z borei: quick question "lprogramming in lisp - best practice" 2017-10-22T05:19:52Z borei: i have function that can return list of 2 lists, or i can make it returning 2 values - list1 and list2 2017-10-22T05:20:26Z pjb: yes 2017-10-22T05:20:30Z borei: what would be "first choice approach" and which one "second" 2017-10-22T05:20:39Z pjb: later, former. 2017-10-22T05:21:40Z borei: is multiple-value-setq a bit exautic ? 2017-10-22T05:21:50Z borei: or it just ... not good ? 2017-10-22T05:22:02Z pjb: What's your problem? 2017-10-22T05:22:50Z borei: there is no real problem with either or implementation - trying to find best way 2017-10-22T05:23:18Z pjb: Is the groove-joint pliers a bit exotic, or is it just not good? 2017-10-22T05:23:41Z borei: good one 2017-10-22T05:24:12Z borei: you need to provide alternative, so there will be option 2017-10-22T05:24:56Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T05:27:37Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-22T05:28:06Z pjb: The indication of each operator depends on what you need to do. 2017-10-22T05:28:29Z pjb: Just learn about them and how to use them, and then use them when you need to. 2017-10-22T05:28:59Z pjb: There are several operators to collect multiple values. 2017-10-22T05:29:17Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T05:29:46Z pjb: multiple-value-bind multiple-value-setq multiple-value-list multiple-value-call (setf values), etc. 2017-10-22T05:31:11Z aeth: multiple-value-bind and setf (values foo bar baz) seem more idiomatic to me. 2017-10-22T05:31:48Z aeth: It's an oversight in the never-changing-again spec to not have let assign multiple values like setf. multiple-value-bind can nest deep 2017-10-22T05:33:10Z pjb: In loops, multiple-value-setq may be useful too. 2017-10-22T05:34:11Z aeth: And as for returning, if it's fewer than 5 items, and it makes sense to do it, multiple values can work. Especially 2. decode-universal-time returns 9, but that's the only one I've encountered that returns that many values 2017-10-22T05:34:57Z pjb: It's more a question of semantics than anything else. 2017-10-22T05:36:37Z aeth: Yeah, imo multiple return values makes the most sense when there are two values returned and the second is optional, e.g. the second value in hash table retrieval or the remainder in rounding operations like floor... but it definitely makes sense in other contexts, too. 2017-10-22T05:41:27Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T05:41:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-22T05:43:10Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-22T05:46:47Z borei: my particular case - vertices and indices as input for opengl shader 2017-10-22T05:47:29Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-22T05:54:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T05:55:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T05:57:39Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T05:58:38Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:01:00Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:04:58Z nydel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T06:10:36Z skm_baig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T06:11:30Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:12:44Z skm_baig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T06:13:10Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:15:27Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T06:17:15Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:19:49Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T06:25:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:26:43Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:28:20Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-22T06:29:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T06:33:05Z skm_baig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T06:33:47Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:34:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:39:18Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-22T06:40:03Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:40:31Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T06:48:39Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:49:42Z Digit joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:50:06Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:51:29Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T06:51:29Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T06:51:59Z MrBusiness3 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:55:30Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-22T06:57:33Z astronavt quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-22T07:01:40Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T07:09:41Z thinkpad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T07:10:25Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T07:10:30Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:19:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:22:34Z stee_3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T07:24:25Z stee_3 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:26:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T07:28:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:30:17Z Beetny quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T07:37:30Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T07:38:12Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:43:34Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:46:39Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2017-10-22T07:48:19Z stee_3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T07:49:06Z SaganMan: does the loop macro needs to have either do, collect or anything other? 2017-10-22T07:49:35Z stee_3 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:49:43Z SaganMan: why doesn't just (loop for x in '(a b c) (print x)) doesn't work? 2017-10-22T07:50:05Z beach: Yes, it needs a DO. 2017-10-22T07:50:09Z beach: clhs loop 2017-10-22T07:50:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2017-10-22T07:50:11Z SaganMan: but with do it works and I've seen some examples where there is neither do or collect 2017-10-22T07:50:26Z SaganMan: beach: what about that^^^ 2017-10-22T07:50:36Z beach: Each clause starts with some loop keyword. 2017-10-22T07:51:34Z beach: Can you give a link to an example of what you are referring to? 2017-10-22T07:51:58Z phoe_: SaganMan: you need a loop keyword to establish a context for LOOP - it's just how it works. you have FOR to create a variable, IN to tell loop what to iterate over, and you need DO to tell LOOP that now it should be executing code. 2017-10-22T07:52:08Z beach: SaganMan: That link describes the syntax of the LOOP macro. 2017-10-22T07:52:11Z SaganMan: beach: yeah, search for alpha45 in this http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/loop.html 2017-10-22T07:52:44Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T07:52:48Z phoe_: SaganMan: yes, FOR FROM BELOW FOR WHEN RETURN are all loop keywords here. 2017-10-22T07:52:49Z flip214: SaganMan: you might want to look at the ITERATE macro instead. That one has a more consistent syntax. 2017-10-22T07:52:55Z beach: SaganMan: There is a loop keyword in each clause there. 2017-10-22T07:53:01Z beach: for, when, return 2017-10-22T07:53:23Z flip214: SaganMan: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/index.html 2017-10-22T07:53:31Z SaganMan: ohh, I don't know what the loop keywords are. So if the loop has just one of loop keywords, it's ok? 2017-10-22T07:53:48Z beach: SaganMan: Read the link I showed you. 2017-10-22T07:53:51Z beach: It explains it. 2017-10-22T07:53:53Z SaganMan: ok 2017-10-22T07:53:59Z beach: That's why I showed it to you. 2017-10-22T07:54:40Z SaganMan: ah, I see 2017-10-22T07:54:52Z SaganMan: thanks beach flip214 phoe_ 2017-10-22T07:54:58Z beach: Anytime. 2017-10-22T07:55:41Z SaganMan: another question, did the later languages adopted the loop like feature of lisp or did this came from something else? 2017-10-22T07:56:12Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-22T07:56:24Z SaganMan: I mean this is something similar to what we find in C, python and such 2017-10-22T07:56:35Z SaganMan: did they got it from lisp? 2017-10-22T07:56:55Z beach: Loop constructs are very old. 2017-10-22T07:57:10Z beach: Other languages have built-in loop constructs, because they don't have Lisp macros. 2017-10-22T07:58:00Z SaganMan: yeah, lisp macros are special 2017-10-22T07:58:01Z beach: And most languages don't have built-in lists, so they don't have loop constructs like collect, for/in, for/on. 2017-10-22T07:59:21Z SaganMan: and also until 2017-10-22T08:00:15Z beach: Many other languages have that. Including C, Pascal, etc. 2017-10-22T08:00:47Z SaganMan: you mean like while (!true) ? 2017-10-22T08:00:49Z phoe_: while is just until not 2017-10-22T08:01:00Z phoe_: or rather, until is while not 2017-10-22T08:01:06Z beach: SaganMan: like repeat-until 2017-10-22T08:01:16Z phoe_: just like unless is when not 2017-10-22T08:02:04Z SaganMan: yah, more like repeat until..simple language 2017-10-22T08:02:24Z beach: phoe_: Well, in most languages, there is a pre-tested and a post-tested loop. The latter makes at least one execution of the body. 2017-10-22T08:03:00Z beach: In Common Lisp, the UNTIL LOOP keyword just means "stop if". 2017-10-22T08:03:17Z SaganMan: now I kind of understand why there are so many variables not declared warnings in emacs packages 2017-10-22T08:03:57Z beach: What? How is that related to Common Lisp LOOP? 2017-10-22T08:04:13Z phoe_: beach: yep. 2017-10-22T08:04:41Z SaganMan: no related to loop, just my thoughts 2017-10-22T08:05:41Z jackdaniel: you won't get penny for them ;-) 2017-10-22T08:05:54Z SaganMan: until is just like the english word until 2017-10-22T08:06:10Z jackdaniel: we had recently a discussion about negations - they are hard to process by human brain 2017-10-22T08:06:33Z jackdaniel: maybe (loop while (not foo) …) is better than (loop until foo …) 2017-10-22T08:06:55Z SaganMan: maybe more for non native english language speakers jackdaniel? 2017-10-22T08:07:09Z beach: I think that's true. 2017-10-22T08:07:20Z jackdaniel: I think that this topic was talked about as well, and some native speaker said, that it's a problem for him too 2017-10-22T08:07:32Z beach: I think native English speakers are used to processing UNTIL, UNLESS, etc. 2017-10-22T08:08:19Z jackdaniel: this may be relevant: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/true-or-false-how-our-brain-processes-negative-statements.html 2017-10-22T08:15:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-22T08:21:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-22T08:21:39Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T08:21:51Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T08:23:01Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-22T08:25:03Z dorothyw joined #lisp 2017-10-22T08:25:24Z dorothyw: How to I convert a character into a string containing only that character in lisp? 2017-10-22T08:26:13Z beach: clhs string 2017-10-22T08:26:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm 2017-10-22T08:26:39Z beach: The function STRING. 2017-10-22T08:29:32Z beach: dorothyw: Did you faint? 2017-10-22T08:29:36Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T08:30:05Z beach: dorothyw: That ↑ link was for you. 2017-10-22T08:31:56Z dorothyw: Thanks the function string worked. 2017-10-22T08:32:01Z dorothyw: How do I sum a list of ints? 2017-10-22T08:32:27Z beach: clhs loop 2017-10-22T08:32:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2017-10-22T08:32:44Z beach: (loop for int in list sum int) 2017-10-22T08:33:06Z beach: ... or (reduce #'+ list) 2017-10-22T08:33:19Z dorothyw: Ah that is what I was looking for thanks. 2017-10-22T08:33:39Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-22T08:34:10Z dorothyw: Ok two more questions 2017-10-22T08:34:26Z phoe_: (apply #'+ list) 2017-10-22T08:34:26Z dorothyw: I have two lists of equal length and I need to merge them into a list of tuples. 2017-10-22T08:34:37Z beach: phoe_: Wrong answer. 2017-10-22T08:34:41Z phoe_: (loop for x in list1 for y in list2 collect (cons x y)) 2017-10-22T08:34:44Z phoe_: beach: is it wrong? 2017-10-22T08:34:54Z beach: Don't use apply in this case. 2017-10-22T08:35:17Z phoe_: Because the list might hit apply's argument limit? 2017-10-22T08:35:21Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-22T08:35:29Z phoe_: Right. 2017-10-22T08:35:37Z phoe_: dorothyw: ^ 2017-10-22T08:35:45Z basket: (mapcar #'cons list-1 list-2) 2017-10-22T08:35:54Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T08:36:54Z dorothyw: basket: I need something more along the lines of (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)) 2017-10-22T08:37:11Z beach: Then use LIST instead of CONS. 2017-10-22T08:37:47Z beach: But you did say tuples, and not lists. 2017-10-22T08:38:04Z phoe_: (mapcar #'list list-1 list-2) then 2017-10-22T08:38:12Z phoe_: or (loop ... collect (list x y)) 2017-10-22T08:38:49Z dorothyw: Ok so here is the final thing 2017-10-22T08:39:00Z phoe_: dorothyw: paste.lisp.org 2017-10-22T08:39:07Z phoe_: For bigger chunks of code, that is. 2017-10-22T08:39:28Z dorothyw: I've got a list of (mapcar #'list list-a list-b) 2017-10-22T08:39:44Z beach: You mean the result of executing that form? 2017-10-22T08:39:59Z beach: Or a list containing the symbol mapcar followed by....? 2017-10-22T08:40:06Z dorothyw: the result of executing that in my code results in a list of tuples of ints 2017-10-22T08:40:13Z beach: OK. 2017-10-22T08:40:23Z dorothyw: I need to sort by list-a 2017-10-22T08:40:33Z dorothyw: then discard the list-a tuples and get my sorted list-b 2017-10-22T08:40:46Z phoe_: if list-1 is (3 2 1) and list-2 is (4 5 6), then (mapcar #'list list-a list-b) will evaluate to ((3 4) (2 5) (1 6)) 2017-10-22T08:40:57Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T08:41:01Z beach: (mapcar #'cadr (sort resulting-list #< :key #'car)) 2017-10-22T08:41:16Z phoe_: beach: you're much quicker than me. 2017-10-22T08:41:24Z beach: Thanks! :) 2017-10-22T08:41:35Z phoe_: except 2017-10-22T08:41:40Z phoe_: s/# 2017-10-22T08:48:49Z dmiles: what might i do? 2017-10-22T08:48:59Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T08:49:24Z Shinmera: Not dig around in implementation internals? 2017-10-22T08:49:45Z dorothyw: https://hastebin.com/ihuxirenep.lisp 2017-10-22T08:49:56Z dmiles: so something like this i just need to catch? 2017-10-22T08:50:18Z Shinmera: Well given that we don't actually know what you're trying to do: maybe 2017-10-22T08:50:44Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-22T08:51:54Z basket: dorothyw: digitRootSort should be called digit-root-sort, and instead of mapping a lambda like (lambda (x) (write-to-string x)) you can just use #'write-to-string 2017-10-22T08:51:59Z dmiles: what i am doing is interating thru the Mop to ensure genrate a type/slot heirary in which i am writting out prolgo declarations 2017-10-22T08:52:39Z basket: dorothyw: You also don't need to wrap single forms in PROGN 2017-10-22T08:53:02Z Shinmera: mop compute-class-precedence-list 2017-10-22T08:53:02Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-class-precedence-list.html 2017-10-22T08:53:06Z basket: dorothyw: And the body of a lambda gets an implicit PROGN anyway 2017-10-22T08:53:08Z Shinmera: ^this is what you should use instead 2017-10-22T08:53:20Z dmiles: ahh .. thianks :) 2017-10-22T08:53:34Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-22T08:54:15Z beach: dorothyw: Please don't use CamelCase in Common Lisp programs. 2017-10-22T08:54:38Z dorothyw: somebody else named it not me 2017-10-22T08:54:51Z dorothyw: I've just got to get it working 2017-10-22T08:55:11Z beach: dorothyw: Tell that person not to use CamelCase in Common Lisp programs. 2017-10-22T08:55:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T08:55:44Z dorothyw: They were probably not a common lisp programmer. 2017-10-22T08:56:03Z basket: dorothyw: Does it work? 2017-10-22T08:56:12Z dorothyw: Does what work? 2017-10-22T08:56:20Z basket: Your function 2017-10-22T08:56:26Z dorothyw: No it does not 2017-10-22T08:56:51Z basket: What does it do? 2017-10-22T08:57:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T08:57:53Z dorothyw: It takes a list of ints and turns those into strings then breaks them into lists of characters then turns those lists of characters to lists of strings, then turns those to ints, then adds the ints, then sorts the list 2017-10-22T08:58:37Z basket: I mean that it shouldn't 2017-10-22T08:59:14Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T09:00:37Z dorothyw: How can I convert an array into a list? 2017-10-22T09:01:10Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T09:04:17Z basket: dorothyw: A string is already a sequence, you can use MAP on it directly 2017-10-22T09:05:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T09:06:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T09:07:45Z beach: dorothyw: You need to format your program according to agreed-upon rules. You have way too many newlines, after LAMBDA, after LET* etc. 2017-10-22T09:07:59Z cyraxjoe quit (K-Lined) 2017-10-22T09:08:07Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-22T09:09:14Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2017-10-22T09:09:30Z beach: dorothyw: There is a lot of unnecessary code in there too, like (map 'list (lambda (char) (string char)) list-of-chars) 2017-10-22T09:12:17Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T09:16:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-22T09:21:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-22T09:31:44Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T09:31:50Z zooey_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T09:37:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T09:43:48Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T09:50:41Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-22T09:54:41Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T10:00:53Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-22T10:02:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-22T10:03:14Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-22T10:06:22Z cpape quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T10:07:16Z Trystam joined #lisp 2017-10-22T10:09:08Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T10:09:10Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2017-10-22T10:21:31Z dorothyw quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-22T10:21:53Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-22T10:23:35Z guicho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T10:26:58Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-22T10:30:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T10:38:35Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-22T10:44:14Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T10:48:45Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-22T10:57:02Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T10:57:21Z knobo: Do we have a html parser that spits out somthing similar to cl-who? 2017-10-22T10:57:51Z knobo thinking about converting some templates to cl-who. 2017-10-22T10:58:48Z Shinmera: plump can chug X/HTML and with plump-sexp you can output an s-expr like syntax of a plump DOM. 2017-10-22T10:59:12Z Shinmera: I doubt it's very compatible with cl-who, but even then if you look at the plump-sexp source you should be able to write a serialiser easily enough 2017-10-22T10:59:46Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump-sexp/blob/master/plump-sexp.lisp#L63 2017-10-22T11:00:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:01:18Z postit left #lisp 2017-10-22T11:02:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T11:06:50Z pyx joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:07:01Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T11:10:35Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T11:11:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:12:16Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:12:32Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:19:49Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:22:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:23:08Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:26:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T11:27:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:44:15Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T11:46:02Z SaganMan: why isn't check-type not working for me? 2017-10-22T11:46:32Z phoe_: SaganMan: what do you mean, not working? 2017-10-22T11:47:17Z SaganMan: I have a function which takes two numbers and I use (check-type a number) and when I give (function p 0), it just gives unbound variable error 2017-10-22T11:47:36Z phoe_: (let ((a "asd")) (check-type a string)) ;=> NIL 2017-10-22T11:47:53Z phoe_: (let ((a "asd")) (check-type a number)) ;=> debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR 2017-10-22T11:48:08Z SaganMan: phoe_: souldn't check-type like give option to correct myself like it said in clhs 2017-10-22T11:48:20Z phoe_: SaganMan: yes, it should give you such an option. 2017-10-22T11:48:21Z phoe_: show me your code. 2017-10-22T11:48:27Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org 2017-10-22T11:50:41Z SaganMan: phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/+7P61 2017-10-22T11:51:39Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-22T11:51:58Z phoe_: SaganMan: and? it works for me. 2017-10-22T11:52:20Z phoe_: (grade2 100 300) prints FAIL, (grade2 900 300) prints PASS, (grade2 300 'a) signals an error. 2017-10-22T11:52:47Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T11:52:47Z phoe_: And I can use the STORE-VALUE restart to put a 300 in there, at which point I get PASS. 2017-10-22T11:53:25Z SaganMan: yeah, it works. I'm trying out check-type and it's not working like it supposed to. I mean like this http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_check_.htm 2017-10-22T11:54:49Z phoe_: Supposed to? 2017-10-22T11:55:02Z phoe_: What exactly do you mean, supposed to? 2017-10-22T11:55:30Z SaganMan: I mean like "To continue..". See the example. 2017-10-22T11:55:32Z phoe_: The examples are going to look differently on your implementation - and different on slime, if you use it, since you get a slime debugger. 2017-10-22T11:55:42Z phoe_: This *will* look different. 2017-10-22T11:55:51Z SaganMan: ah 2017-10-22T11:56:06Z phoe_: How exactly the debugger looks is implementation-defined. 2017-10-22T11:56:19Z SaganMan: I forgot that. 2017-10-22T11:56:21Z phoe_: And also modified by SLIME, since it presents its own, mostly-unified debugger. 2017-10-22T11:57:33Z phoe_: Unified, as in, it look more or less the same across all supported implementations. 2017-10-22T11:57:45Z SaganMan: this check-type is only useful in debigging right? otherwise it serves no purpose I guess 2017-10-22T11:57:55Z phoe_: Not really. It's an assertion. 2017-10-22T11:58:20Z phoe_: And it may instruct the compiler that your function accepts something of type X or Y, which helps with optimizing things. 2017-10-22T11:58:41Z SaganMan: really? even if it's a assertation, I still get the same error and nothing changes 2017-10-22T11:59:02Z phoe_: The same error? What do you mean? 2017-10-22T11:59:41Z SaganMan: I get "unbound variable" error with check-type and without check-type 2017-10-22T12:00:07Z SaganMan: maybe the compiler is assuming the alphabet as variable 2017-10-22T12:01:01Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:02:33Z phoe_: One second. 2017-10-22T12:02:40Z phoe_: Show me the code. 2017-10-22T12:02:43Z SaganMan: ok 2017-10-22T12:02:57Z SaganMan: phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/359209 2017-10-22T12:03:09Z phoe_: This is the same thing as before. 2017-10-22T12:03:18Z phoe_: It contains no variable named ALPHABET. 2017-10-22T12:03:42Z phoe_: And it compiles without warnings for me. 2017-10-22T12:04:14Z phoe_: What exactly is the error that you get? 2017-10-22T12:04:23Z phoe_: I mean, *exactly*? Which variable is unbound? 2017-10-22T12:04:25Z SaganMan: phoe_: what did you pass? 2017-10-22T12:04:57Z phoe_: SaganMan: (grade2 900 300) 2017-10-22T12:05:17Z phoe_: What exactly is the error you're getting? 2017-10-22T12:06:06Z SaganMan: ah, you've miunderstood. Np 2017-10-22T12:06:31Z phoe_: I'm confused now. (: 2017-10-22T12:06:35Z phoe_: What is the error that you're getting? 2017-10-22T12:07:49Z SaganMan: I'm passing (grade2 a 20) with check-type in function and I get "The variable A is unbound" and after I remove the chek-type statements I do the same thing and get the same error. 2017-10-22T12:08:03Z SaganMan: That's what I've been talking about 2017-10-22T12:08:50Z SaganMan: this is in slime 2017-10-22T12:09:25Z SaganMan: maybe it does somewhat different in sbcl 2017-10-22T12:09:30Z SaganMan: moment 2017-10-22T12:09:45Z Bike: What the heck is a? 2017-10-22T12:10:00Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T12:10:10Z Bike: like, you're writing (grade2 a 20) in the repl? what is a supposed to be? 2017-10-22T12:10:27Z oleo: try (grade2 'a 20) 2017-10-22T12:10:34Z Bike: no, don't try that 2017-10-22T12:10:46Z SaganMan: it supposed to be number, it's an arguement of function 2017-10-22T12:10:57Z Bike: what number is it? 2017-10-22T12:11:11Z Bike: you can't just put 'a' there, lisp doesn't know what 'a' is 2017-10-22T12:11:13Z oleo: where is a bound ? 2017-10-22T12:11:19Z Bike: 'a' has a meaning INSIDE THE BODY OF grade2, but not outside 2017-10-22T12:11:22Z SaganMan: oleo: oh yeah 2017-10-22T12:11:53Z Bike: I mean, think about it. When you say (grade2 a 20) what do you expect to happen? 2017-10-22T12:12:05Z Bike: It divides a by 100? without you specifying what number a is? 2017-10-22T12:12:30Z oleo: a and b are supposed to be numbers 2017-10-22T12:12:38Z oleo: check-type makes sure of that 2017-10-22T12:12:51Z oleo: and when you pass only a symbol which is not a number you get an error 2017-10-22T12:13:04Z Bike: no shit, the problem is that 'a' isn't anything, though 2017-10-22T12:13:44Z Bike: i would like to understand what SaganMan expected (grade2 a 20) to do 2017-10-22T12:13:44Z oleo: (defparameter a 200) then (grade2 a 20) 2017-10-22T12:14:42Z oleo: at the time of the call a will be bound and you won't get an error 2017-10-22T12:15:10Z oleo: and you bound it to a number, so check-type won't complain either 2017-10-22T12:15:38Z Bike: that's how to fix the immediate problem, but saganman has some problem of understanding that he should be helped with 2017-10-22T12:15:46Z oleo: ah ok 2017-10-22T12:15:51Z oleo: that's another issue 2017-10-22T12:17:10Z Bike: it is the important issue 2017-10-22T12:17:16Z oleo: is it bad-style to use (defvar a 200) (gradea2 a 20) (setf a 10) (gradea2 a 20) ? 2017-10-22T12:17:20Z SaganMan: Bike: What I'm trying to say is even without check-type, (grade2 a 20) is getting same type of error unbound variable. As you've said the lisp compiler does assume that a is an variable. 2017-10-22T12:17:33Z Bike: It is a variable. What else would it be? 2017-10-22T12:17:49Z Bike: And yes, it has nothing to do with check-type. In fact, it has nothing to do with grade2 at all, beyond the fact that it's a function. 2017-10-22T12:18:43Z oleo: SaganMan, no your function expects two args, and it gets passed two args 2017-10-22T12:18:52Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:19:01Z Bike: if you booted up lisp and typed 'johnson' in the repl, you'd get an unbound variable error. if you typed (+ johnson 4) you'd get an unbound variable error. because johnson is unbound. 2017-10-22T12:19:27Z oleo: just that it turns out that one of the passed on args happens to be unbound and the body of the function works assuming a is a number 2017-10-22T12:19:28Z Bike: What other behavior do you expect? 2017-10-22T12:20:35Z SaganMan: haha, yeah Bike. Like you said there's no other thing to imagine other than being variable. 2017-10-22T12:20:53Z Bike: but you expected something else, or you wouldn't be confused, would you? 2017-10-22T12:21:08Z oleo: Bike: when you pass an unbound arg is it as if you invoked the function as (grade2 nil 20) ? 2017-10-22T12:21:17Z Bike: no, it's not. 2017-10-22T12:21:19Z oleo: ok 2017-10-22T12:21:25Z Bike: the function doesn't get called at all. 2017-10-22T12:21:34Z oleo: hmm 2017-10-22T12:21:44Z oleo: ok 2017-10-22T12:22:03Z oleo: right the handlers of the repl are on top of it 2017-10-22T12:22:17Z oleo: it doesn't get to even being invoked 2017-10-22T12:22:20Z SaganMan: Bike: well before coming here, I expected clhs style debugging with check-type in program but phoe_ told it's not the same as slime 2017-10-22T12:22:54Z Bike: you'd get the same behavior in whether or not you're in slime. 2017-10-22T12:23:40Z SaganMan: yeah 2017-10-22T12:23:42Z Bike: Here's what the evaluator does. It receives (grade2 a 20). It looks at grade2, sees that it's a function, so it resolves to evaluate the arguments and then pass those arguments to the function. It tries to evaluate the arguments. It tries to evaluate a. But it can't, because a is unbound, so it signals an error. grade2 is never even called. 2017-10-22T12:23:59Z oleo: exactly 2017-10-22T12:24:31Z SaganMan: ohh 2017-10-22T12:24:57Z SaganMan: I didn't know that 2017-10-22T12:25:25Z fiveop quit 2017-10-22T12:25:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:26:26Z Bike: that's why i said the definition of grade2 doesn't actually factor in. The error isn't in the definition of grade2 (which looks fine), but just in the code you tried to call it with. 2017-10-22T12:27:59Z SaganMan: yup 2017-10-22T12:28:06Z SaganMan: thanks all 2017-10-22T12:28:09Z oleo: right and unbound is not empty 2017-10-22T12:28:20Z oleo: empty maybe nil 0 or something else depending on context 2017-10-22T12:28:26Z oleo: unbound is just "non-existent" 2017-10-22T12:28:32Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:28:54Z SaganMan: yes 2017-10-22T12:29:04Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T12:29:26Z norfumpit quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T12:31:00Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:32:12Z oleo: the function call protocol is in effect, and first all the parameters are evaled (or tried to) so when an error occurs there there is no invoking 2017-10-22T12:32:32Z oleo: of the function 2017-10-22T12:33:58Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:36:05Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T12:37:26Z oleo: unlike a macro where the first args is not evaled but all the rest is 2017-10-22T12:37:29Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T12:37:47Z Bike: no, what? 2017-10-22T12:38:36Z dim: each macro decides for itself how and when to evaluate its arguments 2017-10-22T12:38:53Z phoe_: oleo: wat, macro arguments are not evaluated unless the macro evaluates them itself 2017-10-22T12:38:57Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T12:39:27Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:47:43Z shenghi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T12:47:56Z shenghi joined #lisp 2017-10-22T12:51:18Z jmercouris: dim: How does the macro decide the when? 2017-10-22T12:51:56Z Bike: it expands into something that does or doesn't evaluate. 2017-10-22T12:52:05Z jmercouris: Yeah, but he said "when", not "if" 2017-10-22T12:52:21Z Bike: ok, into something that evaluates at various times. 2017-10-22T12:52:36Z Bike: for example, (defmacro bind (variable value &body body) `(let ((,variable ,value)) ,@body)) 2017-10-22T12:52:43Z jmercouris: Bike: various cases :P 2017-10-22T12:53:00Z Bike: (bind a x (print a)). a is not evaluated, and x is evaluated before the print call. 2017-10-22T12:53:18Z Shinmera: It could expand into load-time-value or eval-when. 2017-10-22T12:53:22Z jmercouris: It's still nothing temporal in nature, that's my only point 2017-10-22T12:53:28Z Shinmera: Or it could use EVAL in the macro. 2017-10-22T12:53:36Z jmercouris: It is not TRULY deciding when, only IF 2017-10-22T12:53:36Z Bike: it's temporal. x is evaluated before the print call 2017-10-22T12:53:48Z jmercouris: No it isn't that is not temporal, that is procedural in nature 2017-10-22T12:53:51Z dim: jmercouris: a macro can choose to evaluate its argument while expanding or only refer to the argument in its expansion, so that the args are evaluated at run-time, later, as Bike is showing 2017-10-22T12:54:04Z Bike: are you using some other meaning of "temporal" i'm not familiar with? 2017-10-22T12:54:07Z jmercouris: you are confusing a case, with time 2017-10-22T12:54:08Z dim: it's temporal in the sense of eval-when 2017-10-22T12:54:21Z dim: the macro is expanded at compile time 2017-10-22T12:54:31Z jmercouris: If the function was capable of discerning the time, and executing based on the time, I would agree with "when" 2017-10-22T12:54:31Z dim: some of the arguments may be expanded at compile time 2017-10-22T12:54:37Z jmercouris: but since it is not, it is a case based on some condition 2017-10-22T12:54:38Z dim: some others at runtime 2017-10-22T12:54:46Z dim: (or execution-time in the standard IIRC) 2017-10-22T12:54:49Z Bike: so yes, you're using some restrictive meaning of temporal. 2017-10-22T12:54:55Z Bike: based on.. involving clocks? 2017-10-22T12:54:58Z jmercouris: No, I am using the actual definition of temporal 2017-10-22T12:55:12Z dim: jmercouris: whatever, you said it's all about temporal, we didn't 2017-10-22T12:55:18Z Shinmera: jmercouris: The fuck are you on about. A macro can cause something to be evaluated at compile-time, load-time, or run-time. Those are different times, both in idea and actual real-world clock. 2017-10-22T12:55:23Z jmercouris: dim: No, you literally said "when" 2017-10-22T12:55:26Z dim: yes 2017-10-22T12:55:31Z jmercouris: "when" relates to time 2017-10-22T12:55:33Z dim: as in eval-when 2017-10-22T12:55:45Z jmercouris: Shinmera: No, those are DIFFERENT CASES 2017-10-22T12:55:50Z Shinmera: No, they're different times. 2017-10-22T12:55:57Z dim: read the spec before defining your own glossary and pretending we're not helpful in direspecting your choices of terms 2017-10-22T12:55:57Z jmercouris: No, they are different CASES 2017-10-22T12:56:02Z dim: clhs when 2017-10-22T12:56:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm 2017-10-22T12:56:21Z jmercouris: I know what the "when" keyword does 2017-10-22T12:56:22Z dim: clhs eval-when 2017-10-22T12:56:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 2017-10-22T12:56:28Z jmercouris: I also know what that does as well 2017-10-22T12:57:15Z jmercouris: For something to know "when" something happens, in the sense that you were using it, you were definitely not referring to the spec 2017-10-22T12:57:27Z jmercouris: You were saying "if" and "when" in the sense of a branch, and time 2017-10-22T12:57:31Z TeMPOraL: what's all about me? 2017-10-22T12:57:32Z minion: TeMPOraL, memo from phoe_: przypominam się 2017-10-22T12:57:34Z TeMPOraL: :P 2017-10-22T12:57:42Z dim: ok, but somehow you can't see that there's a link between the choice of the word “when”, the eval-when operator, and the evaluation of macro arguments? 2017-10-22T12:58:00Z jmercouris: Oh, I can see the link, I'm just pointing out that you are explicitly wrong in your statement 2017-10-22T12:58:13Z dim: either I'm all wrong or I'm done chatting with you jmercouris, you seem to want to be right rather than learn from our imperfect answers to your questions 2017-10-22T12:58:23Z jmercouris: I didn't ask a question 2017-10-22T12:58:35Z dim: 14:51 dim: How does the macro decide the when? 2017-10-22T12:58:39Z jmercouris: You aren't "all" wrong, but you can't seem to be a little bit wrong about anything 2017-10-22T12:58:39Z dim: that reads like a question to me 2017-10-22T12:58:52Z jmercouris: It was a socratic question, so that maybe you'd take the opportunity to say "oh, you're right, I actually meant x" 2017-10-22T12:58:55Z dim: have a good day jmercouris, I know better use of my time 2017-10-22T12:59:03Z jmercouris: you've never been a friendly person 2017-10-22T12:59:07Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Pot, kettle. 2017-10-22T12:59:17Z jmercouris: Shinmera: When have I been mean to you exactly? 2017-10-22T12:59:39Z Shinmera: I was referring to the being wrong thing. 2017-10-22T12:59:49Z jmercouris: I readily admit to being wrong all the time, please refer to my history in this channel 2017-10-22T13:00:11Z jmercouris: dim afaik, is incapable of admitting mistake, I've never seen him do it once 2017-10-22T13:00:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:01:02Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:01:10Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:01:33Z Shinmera: Referring to compile/load/run-times as when things are evaluated is completely common parlance. 2017-10-22T13:02:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T13:04:41Z scymtym: and then there is evaluation order of macro arguments which describes the order in which argument forms are evaluated within a given time (such as compile/load/run-time) 2017-10-22T13:05:00Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:07:16Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:10:42Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I'll say one last thing on the matter, when is a condition, just because it has the name "when" does not making relate to time, it is just a different way of writing IF, in computer science this is an extremely important distinction 2017-10-22T13:11:49Z Shinmera: "When are you going to the movies?" "Oh at load-time." 2017-10-22T13:12:40Z jmercouris: He used the phrase "if and when" which commonly refers to a possibilty, and time, he wasn't using it in the sense of "when" as a lisp branch, that's just him backpedaling so he doesn't have to admit mistake 2017-10-22T13:13:12Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:13:19Z Shinmera: Or it's a conjunction of literally whether you want to evaluate at all, and specifically at which point in time you want to evaluate. 2017-10-22T13:13:33Z Shinmera: Which is how I, and seemingly everyone else read what he said. 2017-10-22T13:17:23Z jmercouris: You don't choose at which point in time you evaluate, you choose during which process you evaluate, in other words, during which branch 2017-10-22T13:17:30Z jmercouris: The point in time was never your choice 2017-10-22T13:18:11Z Shinmera: You're making semantic arguments about something which nobody misunderstood. 2017-10-22T13:18:52Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-22T13:19:11Z jmercouris: I think the difference is significant, maybe it isn't important to you 2017-10-22T13:19:55Z Shinmera: If I were to further engage your line of thinking, I would also say there's different measures of time that can be established, one of which is the segregation of a timeline into four distinct phases of read, compile, load, evaluate. Using this notion of time, the application of "when" is completely accurate. 2017-10-22T13:20:45Z jmercouris: Actually no, it would be at "which" time, aka which time line, one wouldn't say "at when timeline" 2017-10-22T13:20:52Z Shinmera: Nah, my dude. 2017-10-22T13:22:04Z jmercouris: Let's agree to disagree, I respect your position, and I understand it 2017-10-22T13:41:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T13:41:02Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T13:41:17Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-22T13:41:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:43:23Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:44:25Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-22T13:49:22Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-22T13:54:44Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:01:49Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:06:32Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-22T14:09:03Z mxb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T14:09:22Z whoman: heh 2017-10-22T14:19:27Z jmercouris left #lisp 2017-10-22T14:22:57Z okflo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:23:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T14:30:23Z okflo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T14:30:56Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:34:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:40:41Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T14:44:26Z rgrau joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:48:42Z turkja left #lisp 2017-10-22T14:53:33Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:53:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:57:08Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-10-22T14:57:13Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T14:58:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-22T15:06:08Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:06:25Z trebor_dki joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:08:57Z turkja quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-22T15:09:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:12:22Z richardjdare joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:12:49Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:14:49Z flip214: can TYPECASE check for a NIL value, or do I need to use COND clauses for that? 2017-10-22T15:15:25Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:15:45Z scymtym: flip214: use one of the type specifiers null or (eql nil) 2017-10-22T15:17:29Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:25:21Z pjb: (typecase (zerop (random 2)) (null 'was-nil) (t 'was-something-else)) 2017-10-22T15:25:41Z pjb: or (member nil) 2017-10-22T15:25:48Z pjb: or (and list (not cons)) 2017-10-22T15:25:52Z pjb: etc… 2017-10-22T15:29:36Z flip214: scymtym: pjb: thanks! 2017-10-22T15:29:53Z flip214: scymtym: I tried NULL, but got "NULL is not a type" or similar 2017-10-22T15:33:21Z pjb: NULL is a type. 2017-10-22T15:33:28Z pjb: it's the type (member nil). 2017-10-22T15:33:40Z pjb: well, |CL|:|NULL| is a type. 2017-10-22T15:33:47Z pjb: I don't know your readtable… 2017-10-22T15:34:02Z oleo: it works here 2017-10-22T15:34:09Z oleo: i got twice was-nil 2017-10-22T15:34:35Z pjb: oleo: swank resets *random-state*, since it forks a new thread for each evaluation. Try it in the REPL. 2017-10-22T15:36:37Z basket quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-22T15:37:41Z oleo: i'm in clim-listener, not swank 2017-10-22T15:37:49Z Bike: flip214: what was the actual error and for what code? 2017-10-22T15:37:50Z oleo: not sure it uses swank at that point 2017-10-22T15:42:36Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T15:42:45Z flip214: Hrmpf. wrote (DEFUN ... (... &KEYS foo)) once again, and it actually worked with :foo :bar ... 2017-10-22T15:43:04Z flip214: but of course wasn't as thought. 2017-10-22T15:44:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:46:19Z pjb: oleo: the question is whether threads are forked for each evaluation. 2017-10-22T15:46:38Z pjb: By default each new thread gets a new copy of the same *random-state*… 2017-10-22T15:46:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-22T15:46:57Z pjb: &key not &keys. 2017-10-22T15:51:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-22T16:01:40Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:02:39Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:10:58Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-10-22T16:17:05Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:19:16Z mfiano: What is the correct way to read a file of multiple top-level s-expression forms (a dsl I want to parse)? Normally I only have to read a single form, and READ works, but with multiple top-level forms, it only returns the first one. 2017-10-22T16:19:36Z drdo: well, do more READs 2017-10-22T16:20:27Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:20:29Z mfiano: How would I loop over arbitrary number of them? I'm moreso looking for the idiomatic way to handle all this. I'm sure I could hack something up less than ideal, but this is new territory for me so thought I'd ask for pointers. 2017-10-22T16:22:23Z drdo: What's wrong with looping READ and stopping when there's an error? 2017-10-22T16:23:23Z dim: when using read you need to trust the input, too, IIUC 2017-10-22T16:23:44Z pjb: mfiano: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-list-file-contents "file.sexps") 2017-10-22T16:23:45Z mfiano: Yes, the input is trusted, although i set eval to nil 2017-10-22T16:25:03Z pjb: Note: it's an accessor, so you can update the file with: (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-list-file-contents "file.sexps") '((define-thing x) (define-stuff z))) 2017-10-22T16:25:42Z mfiano: Thanks 2017-10-22T16:25:45Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T16:26:11Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:26:51Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-22T16:28:23Z gacepa joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:29:49Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:32:43Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/+7P6Z 2017-10-22T16:32:47Z oleo: mfiano! 2017-10-22T16:33:11Z oleo: mfiano: apart from the safe version from other libs, you can do it that way 2017-10-22T16:34:15Z mfiano: Thanks for the help everyone 2017-10-22T16:35:37Z forcefaction joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:38:38Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T16:39:57Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T16:41:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T16:48:18Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-22T16:52:29Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-22T16:54:54Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:01:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:01:50Z pjb: oleo: wrong. 2017-10-22T17:02:06Z pjb: oleo: your code will fail lamentably on CRLF and any other unicode character. 2017-10-22T17:03:30Z pjb: Well, no, I'm wrong. It's ok, it just allocates a little more, hidden by the fill pointer. I need a rest. 2017-10-22T17:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T17:04:33Z mfiano: Is there a way to write a lambda list with destructuring-bind that binds all the BUTLAST forms to a variable, and the LAST form to another variable? 2017-10-22T17:08:13Z dmiles: gads, since sbcl was 9x faster at fibonacci than YAP-Prolog .. i figured i'd have a go at trying out some prolog-in-lisps ... if figured i'd see if sbcl running one the the prologs would be faster than YAP, however the bad news is all of the prolog-in-lisp run out of memory at fib(18,_) and above :( 2017-10-22T17:08:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:08:31Z Bike: mfiano: nope. 2017-10-22T17:09:32Z dmiles: as it seems all the prolog-in-lisp allocate either environent or some growing array 2017-10-22T17:09:40Z mfiano: ok 2017-10-22T17:12:41Z dmiles: sjl: is your verson of prolog testable yet? 2017-10-22T17:14:26Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T17:18:14Z oleo: pjb: right, some unicode won't get rendered at least in the listener, not in the repl tho 2017-10-22T17:19:10Z pjb: It's a different question, a problem with the renderer or fonts. 2017-10-22T17:19:23Z dmiles: onme would think i am doing something wrong ifg it wasnt for the fact that fib(17,_) returned the correct answers :P 2017-10-22T17:20:05Z dmiles: i notice AllegroProlog is just as bad 2017-10-22T17:20:26Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:21:55Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:22:22Z dmiles: not sure why AllgroCL doesnt spend a month making a 3 stack version of prolog so it doesnt do that 2017-10-22T17:24:56Z dmiles: even a transpiler into lisp would solve the problem 2017-10-22T17:29:12Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:30:28Z shrdlu68: Good evening, gentlemen and ladies. 2017-10-22T17:30:58Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:39:04Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T17:40:34Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:41:43Z rjid joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:44:08Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:44:28Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:46:59Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:47:51Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T17:48:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:51:11Z mrottenkolber: I have trouble loading CLX on CCL, I get: Unbound variable: XLIB::+RR-CONFIG-STATUS+ 2017-10-22T17:51:13Z mrottenkolber: any ideas? 2017-10-22T17:53:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-22T17:54:09Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T17:54:51Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-22T17:55:17Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T17:55:35Z fantazo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:56:34Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:57:50Z fantazo quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T17:58:06Z jackdaniel: mrottenkolber: I'm working on it now 2017-10-22T17:58:12Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-22T17:58:20Z jackdaniel: you may wrap defconstant in extensions/randr.lisp in eval-when 2017-10-22T17:58:38Z jackdaniel: or comment out randr extension 2017-10-22T17:58:45Z jackdaniel: from asd 2017-10-22T17:59:07Z jackdaniel: I was too haste to accept the pull request 2017-10-22T17:59:28Z mrottenkolber: jackdaniel: as a side note, the work you are doing on McCLIM looks really promising!! 2017-10-22T17:59:52Z mrottenkolber: <3 2017-10-22T18:00:33Z jackdaniel: thanks :) we are slowly moving forward 2017-10-22T18:00:34Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:00:36Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-22T18:00:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:05:14Z jackdaniel: check out clx repository for a fix. If you want to run McCLIM with CCL I would wait a few days – something is not right and it may not work for you 2017-10-22T18:11:22Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T18:11:56Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:12:25Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-22T18:14:22Z patche joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:15:47Z patche quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T18:16:34Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:19:10Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:23:15Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:23:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:24:58Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:28:25Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:28:29Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T18:28:58Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:29:52Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:33:00Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T18:33:16Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-22T18:36:49Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:37:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:38:10Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-22T18:44:54Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T18:46:57Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:47:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:47:12Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:47:22Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:47:23Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:47:42Z l04m33[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:48:47Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:49:47Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:50:52Z trigt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:50:52Z CharlieBrown quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:51:02Z ajarmst quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-22T18:51:12Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:51:14Z lambdice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:51:20Z sjl_: dmiles: I mean, it has a few tests. it's not really done, and I burned out on it before I finished. I should get back to it some time 2017-10-22T18:51:28Z dahs81[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:51:48Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:51:56Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:51:58Z astronavt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:51:59Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:52:20Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:52:26Z equalunique[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:52:34Z happy_gnu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:52:51Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:52:52Z dirb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:53:05Z sjl_: It worked to demo my general game playing stuff at ELS, lol 2017-10-22T18:56:12Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-22T18:57:17Z ryan_vw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:57:57Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:58:24Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-22T18:58:33Z sjl_: dmiles: I pushed up the half-sketched out docs https://sjl.bitbucket.io/temperance/ 2017-10-22T18:58:39Z nikivi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T18:58:40Z sjl_: still need to finish those 2017-10-22T19:02:45Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-22T19:03:45Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:10:51Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T19:11:01Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T19:12:36Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T19:13:35Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T19:14:01Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:14:39Z void_gazer joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:14:42Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:16:04Z void_gazer quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T19:17:49Z guaqua joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:17:53Z richardjdare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T19:22:30Z brandonz quit (Quit: bbl) 2017-10-22T19:23:01Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T19:24:42Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-22T19:25:40Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-22T19:25:54Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-22T19:26:37Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:31:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:33:00Z brandonz joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:34:28Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:34:51Z Ven is now known as Guest28087 2017-10-22T19:35:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-22T19:37:17Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-10-22T19:37:38Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-22T19:39:35Z trebor_dki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T19:39:40Z happy_gnu[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:44:14Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:51:39Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:52:50Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-22T19:53:51Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:51Z dirb joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z astronavt[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z dahs81[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:52Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:53:59Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:54:00Z trigt[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-22T19:54:37Z dmiles: sjl: do you think your Prolog would global overflow on fibonacci ? 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-22T21:58:25Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T22:04:24Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-22T22:09:55Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T22:14:38Z borodust: Xach, any ETAs on loadable main dist? 2017-10-22T22:16:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-22T22:18:22Z Xach: borodust: what is a loadable main dist? 2017-10-22T22:20:06Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-22T22:21:05Z borodust: Xach: latest quicklisp dist doesnt seem to load a couple of libs after #'ql:update-all-dists 2017-10-22T22:21:10Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-22T22:21:27Z Xach: borodust: what libraries? 2017-10-22T22:22:42Z asarch quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-22T22:22:59Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T22:23:16Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-22T22:23:30Z borodust: Xach: top frame http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1508709709.png 2017-10-22T22:24:24Z Xach: borodust: hmm, does it work if you load static-vectors first? 2017-10-22T22:25:03Z borodust: nope 2017-10-22T22:26:02Z Xach: what happens? 2017-10-22T22:27:21Z borodust: this error in the top frame 2017-10-22T22:27:31Z borodust: this was reported to me by user, cant investigate it further atm (afk). Ill recheck tomorrow 2017-10-22T22:27:40Z Xach: ok 2017-10-22T22:27:47Z borodust: typing from phone :/ 2017-10-22T22:27:59Z Xach: borodust: i hope to have another release tomorrow, at any rate, but i don't know if it will fix that issue. 2017-10-22T22:28:35Z borodust: tnx 2017-10-22T22:29:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-22T22:30:28Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T22:34:29Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-22T22:36:28Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T22:37:00Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-22T22:41:49Z j0ni joined #lisp 2017-10-22T22:44:05Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-22T22:50:52Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-22T22:51:51Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-22T23:03:05Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-22T23:04:12Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-10-22T23:12:10Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-22T23:12:31Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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terpri quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T06:40:05Z chens quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T06:40:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-23T06:44:15Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T06:45:05Z Zhivago: Why are you checking for the equality of files? 2017-10-23T06:45:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T06:46:22Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-23T06:47:17Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T06:47:28Z phoe_: krwq: streams? take into account that a stream (a Gray stream, for example) can do arbitrary computation on read, so this becomes an instance of a halting problem 2017-10-23T06:47:34Z phoe_: sequences are finite, streams aren't 2017-10-23T06:48:13Z Zhivago: There are a number of efficient methods for determining file equality but they have overhead. 2017-10-23T06:50:15Z Shinmera: I mean, it's just a short loop: (loop for i from 0 always (eql (read-* s1) (read-* s2)) finally (return i)) 2017-10-23T06:50:26Z Shinmera: Though I fail to see the utility in this 2017-10-23T06:50:36Z Shinmera: After all, once you've done this the data in the streams is gone. 2017-10-23T06:50:43Z phoe_: Shinmera: file-position 2017-10-23T06:51:11Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T06:51:40Z Shinmera: phoe_: Sure, but that only applies to some streams, and even then what's the point of determining this position? 2017-10-23T06:51:52Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-23T06:51:55Z bkst quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-23T06:52:36Z phoe_: SETFing it to 0, you're on the beginning of the stream again. 2017-10-23T06:52:45Z phoe_: And Zhivago is talking about files here, so this could work. 2017-10-23T06:52:55Z Shinmera: Yes but what's the point 2017-10-23T06:53:08Z Zhivago: That is the question. :) 2017-10-23T06:53:16Z phoe_: I don't know! 2017-10-23T06:53:31Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T06:58:32Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:01:30Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:01:39Z 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name conflit! 2017-10-23T07:29:02Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:29:32Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-10-23T07:30:09Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:31:37Z tapioco71: "BT" is already a nickname for "BORDEAUX-THREADS". 2017-10-23T07:31:37Z tapioco71: [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR] 2017-10-23T07:32:44Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:33:10Z beach: tapioco71: You are probably out of luck. It seems both those systems use BT as the nickname of a package. 2017-10-23T07:34:07Z shrdlu68: Perhaps there's some way to recover? "A correctable error is signaled if the package-name or any of the nicknames is already the name or nickname of an existing package." 2017-10-23T07:34:24Z beach: That's entirely possible, sure. 2017-10-23T07:35:09Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:35:59Z Zhivago: Standard nicknames sounds like a terrible idea. 2017-10-23T07:36:44Z arduo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:37:36Z beach: When package-local nicknames become sufficiently widespread, we don't need global package nicknames anymore. 2017-10-23T07:40:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:40:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T07:40:28Z shrdlu68: tapioco71: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Resolution-of-Name-Conflicts 2017-10-23T07:40:55Z shrdlu68: "the sb-ext:resolve-conflict restart should be invoked with one argument, which should be a member of the list returned by the condition accessor sb-ext:name-conflict-symbols" 2017-10-23T07:41:37Z beach: Does CCL have package-local nicknames? I am pretty sure I saw that jackdaniel recently added that feature to ECL. 2017-10-23T07:45:19Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:46:52Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-23T07:50:20Z lispyone left #lisp 2017-10-23T07:52:13Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T07:58:13Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly currently only ABCL, SBCL, and ECL have local nicknames. 2017-10-23T07:58:41Z beach: I see. Thanks. 2017-10-23T07:59:33Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:01:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:02:40Z beach: Does the feature work the same way in all those implementations? 2017-10-23T08:02:52Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:03:28Z beach: If so, that's a strong case for other implementations to follow suit. 2017-10-23T08:04:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:05:04Z dim: hi guys! 2017-10-23T08:05:36Z beach: Hello dim. 2017-10-23T08:05:50Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T08:07:13Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:09:30Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:10:38Z dim: I'll present pgloader at PostgreSQL Conference Europe later this week (in Warsaw), will try to get contributors... putting CL to the “popularity test” again 2017-10-23T08:10:45Z beach: There, SICL now also has package-local nicknames. :) Now I just need to modify the reader to take them into account. 2017-10-23T08:10:56Z phoe_: beach: congrats! 2017-10-23T08:11:06Z dim: I want to use the arguement “programming in Common Lisp actually is easy”, would you agree with that? 2017-10-23T08:11:08Z beach: phoe_: It was a one-line change. 2017-10-23T08:11:14Z beach: dim: Excellent! 2017-10-23T08:11:25Z Shinmera: dim: Depends on what you want to do 2017-10-23T08:11:35Z Shinmera: But that's the answer for every language. 2017-10-23T08:11:38Z phoe_: beach: woah, congrats²! 2017-10-23T08:11:42Z dim: Shinmera: exactly 2017-10-23T08:12:16Z Shinmera: dim: My argument for CL is that it makes me angry much less often than when I work in other languages. 2017-10-23T08:12:26Z dim: Shinmera: I'd like to send a message that hacking an existing CL program to add a new feature or fix a bug isn't harder than doing the same thing with a Python program, say, or even easier 2017-10-23T08:12:29Z Shinmera: But that's not really something that's going to convince a lot of people 2017-10-23T08:12:34Z dim: hehe 2017-10-23T08:12:47Z dim: you know the WTF quality measure? ;-) 2017-10-23T08:13:03Z dim: http://commadot.com/wtf-per-minute/ 2017-10-23T08:13:10Z phoe_: obligatory xkcd incoming 2017-10-23T08:13:14Z Shinmera: Could rename that to "JS proximity" 2017-10-23T08:13:28Z dim: ahah 2017-10-23T08:13:51Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:14:02Z dim: but some people like JS, and some of them might be in the room, I don't want to start another flame war, I'd like people to consider contributing to pgloader 2017-10-23T08:14:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:14:10Z Shinmera: Anyway, what usually impresses people is the live redefinition stuff. A lot of programmers "grow up" thinking that that's not even possible. 2017-10-23T08:14:32Z Shinmera: Mostly because they're used to the write a file, recompile, run cycle. 2017-10-23T08:14:35Z phoe_: ^ 2017-10-23T08:14:57Z phoe_: try finding a thing that you can tweak inside a living pgloader, then redefine it 2017-10-23T08:15:13Z Zhivago: These days live redefinition impresses me very little since machines are fast enough that it generally doesn't matter any more and invites incremental error. 2017-10-23T08:15:49Z Shinmera: Zhivago: It matters a lot in some scenarios where running the program to get back to the state you want to investigate is difficult or takes a lot of time. 2017-10-23T08:17:19Z dim: Shinmera: in that case it means most contributors will want to hack on pgloader using the Makefile rather than setting up a CL environement 2017-10-23T08:17:29Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:17:30Z dim: (environment, sorry, fat fingers etc) 2017-10-23T08:18:11Z Zhivago: shinmera: Something that I avoid at the design level, but certainly. 2017-10-23T08:18:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:18:25Z beach: dim: Another important obstacle that I often encounter is that many programmers (especially those with insufficient knowledge and experience) confuse "interactive" and "interpreted". So their reasoning goes "interactive" => "interpreted" => "slow" => "can't use". If I were you, I would make it clear that modern Common Lisp implementations are fast. 2017-10-23T08:18:38Z dim: for me the best thing in CL/SLIME is the interactive debugger that I get for free in case something unexpected happens, with all the debug info 2017-10-23T08:18:45Z Shinmera: Well, getting a CL environment is easy now thanks to Portacle. 2017-10-23T08:18:53Z dim: (well I have (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) in ~/.sbclrc) 2017-10-23T08:19:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:19:35Z dim: beach: hehe, the reason why pgloader is now CL rather than Python like it used to be is a 20x to 30x improvement ;-) 2017-10-23T08:20:10Z beach: dim: Yes, that's good. But you may have people in the audience who think that C++ would give another 30x improvement. 2017-10-23T08:20:25Z shka: lol 2017-10-23T08:20:29Z shka: yeah 2017-10-23T08:20:33Z dim: that's true 2017-10-23T08:20:37Z beach: shka: Not funny, unfortunately. 2017-10-23T08:20:38Z shka: thanks to C++ you can send data faster! 2017-10-23T08:20:40Z dim: well then they should try 2017-10-23T08:20:48Z dim: pgloader could be way faster than it currently is 2017-10-23T08:21:08Z shka: i bet pgloader is just throttled by IO at this point 2017-10-23T08:21:21Z dim: I need to find how to optimize it further, it's only chopping about 6MBps of data trafic (with transformations), saturating CPUs doing so 2017-10-23T08:21:25Z phoe_: beach: "interpreted" can be easily fought off with #'DISASSEMBLE, luckily 2017-10-23T08:21:27Z beach: I recently gave a talk to a major consulting company in Sweden, and most of the people in the audience were confused about this issue. They were certain that compilation required batch processing and generation of object files. 2017-10-23T08:21:35Z dim: shka: far from it at the moment, because the code isn't good enough 2017-10-23T08:21:48Z phoe_: People tend to react differently when they unexpectedly see something that looks like assembly. 2017-10-23T08:21:52Z shka: oh, cool 2017-10-23T08:21:58Z shka: then to work! 2017-10-23T08:22:20Z dim: beach: I would like to understand this “linker” stage better, I failed again and again to explain why Lisp doesn't need it 2017-10-23T08:22:30Z dim: (or how it does it differently) 2017-10-23T08:22:30Z Zhivago: Just wait until they start talking about transpiling. 2017-10-23T08:22:49Z dim: shka: contributions welcome! 2017-10-23T08:23:05Z shka: i have way to much to do already 2017-10-23T08:23:10Z shka: but thanks :-) 2017-10-23T08:23:23Z dim: the current hot spot to fix is https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pgsql/copy-format.lisp 2017-10-23T08:23:27Z Shinmera: Has someone written a paper yet titled: "A Transpiler is Just a Compiler, A Transpiler is Just a Compiler, A Transpiler is Just a Compiler!" 2017-10-23T08:23:38Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:23:44Z dim: it's easy enough to rewrite, and I'm sitting on a patch 2017-10-23T08:23:48Z beach: dim: Basically, Common Lisp implementations have an indirection between a name and what it stands for, and the indirection is managed within the implementation, as opposed to by an external linker. 2017-10-23T08:23:50Z dim: but the improvements aren't worth it 2017-10-23T08:24:19Z dim: Shinmera: as one who began writing an Oracle PL/SQL to PostgreSQL PLpgSQL “compiler”, I'd like to read it ;-) 2017-10-23T08:25:05Z dim: beach: that I think I understand (function cell, extra pointer, allows replacement at recompile, ok) ; but what the linker does in the C/libc setup I don't understand 2017-10-23T08:25:21Z Shinmera: It resolves symbols. 2017-10-23T08:25:28Z dim: it takes .a, .o, and .so files and turn them into a single binary, I think 2017-10-23T08:25:55Z dim: is there something to do with “Compilation Unit”? 2017-10-23T08:25:59Z phoe_: the compiler creates object files, the linker links symbols from the object files together so object A knows where symbol FOO is if object A is linked with object B that has a symbol FOO. 2017-10-23T08:26:12Z Zhivago: A .o files is a realization of a compilation unit. 2017-10-23T08:26:31Z beach: dim: Other languages typically use 1960s linker technology, though all that stuff is blurred these days with shared libraries. Traditionally, a function in one file calls a function in a different file DIRECTLY using its address. To make that work, the compiler generates files where some addresses are marked as RELOCATABLE. The linker fills in the final address when the executable is created. 2017-10-23T08:26:36Z dim: does CL have compilation units? depends on the implementation? 2017-10-23T08:26:37Z beach: dim: That's the essence of it. 2017-10-23T08:26:49Z beach: clhs with-compilation-unit 2017-10-23T08:26:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm 2017-10-23T08:27:12Z dim: beach: thanks, that was crystal clear! 2017-10-23T08:27:37Z beach: Wow, thanks! :) 2017-10-23T08:28:02Z Shinmera: People are doing crazy stuff with linkers nowadays where they do inlining during the linking process. 2017-10-23T08:28:26Z phoe_: during the linking? how? 2017-10-23T08:28:27Z beach: Indeed. Things are slowly changing. The linker becomes a compiler. 2017-10-23T08:28:43Z beach: phoe_: They just expand what it means to be a linker. 2017-10-23T08:28:46Z phoe_: To me, this means that you're modifying the assembly that was already generated by the compiler. 2017-10-23T08:29:07Z Shinmera: Well yes. 2017-10-23T08:29:19Z Shinmera: Anyway, Clasp already heavily relies on this technique, for instance. 2017-10-23T08:29:27Z phoe_: I see. 2017-10-23T08:29:27Z dim: would a lisp OS need a linker? I guess it would maintain a global function addresses table for the whole OS? 2017-10-23T08:29:49Z phoe_: dim: does a CL implementation need a linker? 2017-10-23T08:29:50Z beach: dim: It would not need a traditional linker for the reason you pointed out. 2017-10-23T08:30:14Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:30:44Z dim: and an “environment” could then be a dynamic version of that global table, with overloading entries, maybe? 2017-10-23T08:30:49Z beach: dim: The indirection used by Common Lisp has many advantages. Without it, you need to restart Firefox whenever you get a new version, and you need to restart your entire computer when the kernel is updated. None of these problems exist when you have this one indirectly. 2017-10-23T08:31:00Z phoe_: dim: that's what beach is calling a first-class global environment 2017-10-23T08:31:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:31:15Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T08:31:20Z dim: yeah, I'm slowly getting to realize that, I think ;-) 2017-10-23T08:32:31Z beach: s/indirectly/indirection/ 2017-10-23T08:32:38Z shka: when one would want to use with-compilation-unit? 2017-10-23T08:32:43Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:33:05Z Shinmera: When you're writing a build system, probably. 2017-10-23T08:33:56Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:34:16Z uint joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:34:29Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:34:42Z shka: hmmm 2017-10-23T08:34:53Z shka: and outside of that? 2017-10-23T08:35:25Z beach: Normal users rarely need it. 2017-10-23T08:35:45Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:35:59Z beach: jackdaniel: Do ECL package-local nicknames work the same way as in SBCL? 2017-10-23T08:36:47Z jackdaniel: hey o/ 2017-10-23T08:36:53Z jackdaniel: my servers gone done apparently 2017-10-23T08:37:01Z jackdaniel: yes they do 2017-10-23T08:37:13Z beach: shka: As I recall, the implementation is allowed to skimp on the indirection that I mentioned within a compilation unit. It can then generate faster code, but the disadvantage is that you can then not use C-c C-c to redefine individual functions, etc. 2017-10-23T08:37:14Z jackdaniel: protocol described in documentation is implemented 2017-10-23T08:37:16Z jackdaniel: beach: ↑ 2017-10-23T08:37:20Z beach: Thanks! 2017-10-23T08:37:39Z jackdaniel: but they are in repository only, they were implemented after the last release afair 2017-10-23T08:37:39Z beach: If Clasp does the same, then I think I'll start using them in SICL code. 2017-10-23T08:37:50Z jackdaniel: so if you use 16.1.3 then they are not there 2017-10-23T08:38:20Z beach: jackdaniel: It is not that I plan to use ECL soon. But the more implementations that have it, the more it becomes practical to use them. 2017-10-23T08:38:30Z jackdaniel: indeed 2017-10-23T08:38:53Z beach: ... and the more the pressure is on the other implementations to do the same. 2017-10-23T08:40:08Z beach: I just added them to SICL, but since the definition of the package class in SICL is just a DEFCLASS form, it was easy. I just have to modify the reader to take advantage of this feature. 2017-10-23T08:40:20Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:43:01Z EvilAngel quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:44:49Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:47:06Z beach: jackdaniel: Do you also define the same feature as SBCL for package-local nicknames? 2017-10-23T08:47:32Z Shinmera: If CCL had local nicknames I think it'd be feasible to use it in libraries. 2017-10-23T08:47:46Z Shinmera: Sadly I don't think there's many (if any?) CCL maintainers left. 2017-10-23T08:47:54Z beach: Oh! :( 2017-10-23T08:48:32Z beach: I agree, though. This might be the critical mass required. 2017-10-23T08:48:33Z jackdaniel: beach: yes 2017-10-23T08:48:42Z beach: Excellent! 2017-10-23T08:48:42Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: rme maintains CCL quite well 2017-10-23T08:49:03Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:49:08Z jackdaniel: I think he doesn't have time to implement it himself, but last time I've talked with him about that, he was rather positive on merging such thing 2017-10-23T08:49:39Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:50:40Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T08:54:55Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T08:59:28Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T09:00:50Z phoe_: ^ 2017-10-23T09:00:55Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:00:58Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T09:01:15Z phoe_: rme is pretty happy to maintain CCL but he does not have the time to implement big changes AFAIK 2017-10-23T09:01:39Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:02:06Z jackdaniel: this is not that big change anyway - adding a few slots to package structure and making find-package to perform lookup there first. and a few adjustments to defpackage macro 2017-10-23T09:02:18Z jackdaniel: (+ protocol functions) 2017-10-23T09:02:28Z beach: OK, we need a TRIVIAL-LOCAL-PACKAGE-NICKNAMES system available in Quicklisp. :) 2017-10-23T09:03:38Z jackdaniel quit (Quit: reboot) 2017-10-23T09:04:44Z beach: It is slightly more complicated in SICL, because other implementation may want to use first-class global environments, so I can't just directly call (sicl-package:local-nicknames *package*). That's why we need TRIVIAL-LOCAL-PACKAGE-NICKNAMES. 2017-10-23T09:05:03Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T09:05:11Z uint quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T09:07:24Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:08:26Z beach: Any takers for implementing TRIVIAL-LOCAL-PACKAGE-NICKNAMES? It should not be too hard. 2017-10-23T09:10:55Z Guest97351 is now known as kushal 2017-10-23T09:11:04Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-10-23T09:11:04Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:12:44Z beach: The silence is deafening. 2017-10-23T09:13:07Z phoe_: beach: take your time, this is IRC. (: 2017-10-23T09:16:29Z beach: It would have to contain functions (I suggest generic functions) for obtaining a list of (nickname . name) pairs for a given package, for adding and removing a (nickname . name) pair from a package, and maybe some error conditions to signal. That ought to be it. 2017-10-23T09:16:29Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:17:23Z beach: And it would have reader conditionals for the implementations that currently have this feature. 2017-10-23T09:20:29Z EvilAngel joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:25:31Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:25:34Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:43:20Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T09:46:17Z jackdaniel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T09:49:15Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:49:26Z antoszka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-23T09:49:26Z mrSpec quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-23T09:53:48Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:56:35Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T09:58:00Z scymtym: beach: what about an extended DEFPACKAGE? or would you rely on implementations supporting the feature all having compatible CL:DEFPACKAGEs? 2017-10-23T09:58:25Z beach: Yes. That seems to be the way already. 2017-10-23T09:58:32Z jackdaniel: defpackage extension is described in extension proposal 2017-10-23T09:58:45Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T09:58:48Z scymtym: as in CDR? 2017-10-23T09:58:54Z jackdaniel: so I think that implementation supporting local-package-nickname must support this in defpackage 2017-10-23T09:59:26Z jackdaniel: well, it wasn't put as CDR, see my question in here: https://github.com/nikodemus/SBCL/commit/3c11847d1e12db89b24a7887b18a137c45ed4661 2017-10-23T09:59:43Z jackdaniel: there were plans to do that for sure (to make it a CDR) 2017-10-23T09:59:51Z uint joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:00:13Z jackdaniel: this commit has SBCL documentation describing also defpackage extension 2017-10-23T10:00:51Z scymtym: that is one of the best commit messages i have seen so far 2017-10-23T10:01:44Z jackdaniel: ah, right, one of the differences between ECL and SBCL implementation is that package locks aren't protecting package local nicknames I think (don't remember for sure) 2017-10-23T10:03:22Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T10:06:11Z beach: Anyway, what is needed in the compatibility system is the functionality of adding/removing/retrieving package local nicknames. 2017-10-23T10:07:20Z jackdaniel: extension has these functions already 2017-10-23T10:07:31Z beach: Yes, but in which package? 2017-10-23T10:07:42Z beach: Does ECL define an SB-EXT package? 2017-10-23T10:07:43Z jackdaniel: right, I was about to say that 2017-10-23T10:07:58Z beach: That is why we need the compatibility system. 2017-10-23T10:08:07Z antoszka joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:08:29Z jackdaniel: my point is that trivial-… would be actually (defpackage trivial- (:import-from #+ecl #:ext #+sbcl #:sb-ext ,@our-symbols) (:export ,@our-symbols)) 2017-10-23T10:08:49Z jackdaniel: so pretty trivial indeed :) 2017-10-23T10:08:57Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:09:02Z beach: Unless you want to make those functions generic. 2017-10-23T10:09:10Z beach: But yeah, that would be the simplest solution. 2017-10-23T10:09:52Z Shinmera: A trivial package would still be useful in case another implementation comes along that changes things slightly, or we discover incompatibilities of some kind. 2017-10-23T10:10:46Z Shinmera: Speaking of package things, how many implementations have package locks? I don't think we have a trivial system for that yet 2017-10-23T10:11:00Z jackdaniel: there is trivial-package-locks 2017-10-23T10:11:14Z jackdaniel: well, it's named simply package-locks afair 2017-10-23T10:11:32Z Shinmera: Oh 2017-10-23T10:11:33Z jackdaniel: cl-package-locks * : https://github.com/elliottjohnson/cl-package-locks 2017-10-23T10:11:36Z Shinmera: Must have missed that somehow 2017-10-23T10:12:41Z Shinmera: Seems it only supports allegro, clisp, cmucl, and sbcl. I thought there were more nowadays? 2017-10-23T10:13:01Z jackdaniel: ECL has package locks too 2017-10-23T10:13:07Z jackdaniel: this library is from 2011 2017-10-23T10:13:08Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T10:15:57Z tapioco71 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-23T10:20:45Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:21:44Z rtmpdavid joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:25:18Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:28:28Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:30:39Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T10:32:41Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T10:33:00Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-23T10:39:14Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:40:21Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-23T10:48:17Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:51:30Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:52:43Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T10:57:13Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-23T10:58:32Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:00:14Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:00:25Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2017-10-23T11:00:25Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:01:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:02:48Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:08:29Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:13:05Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:13:12Z jozi9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:13:12Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:23:59Z jozi9 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:27:01Z MrBusiness3 is now known as MrBusiness 2017-10-23T11:27:11Z arduo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T11:27:26Z arduo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:28:16Z EvilAngel quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2017-10-23T11:33:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:34:40Z dieggsy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2017-10-23T11:35:41Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:37:53Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:41:10Z dotcra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:43:50Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:51:07Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:51:59Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T11:52:17Z jozi9 left #lisp 2017-10-23T11:53:19Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:53:34Z KZiemian joined #lisp 2017-10-23T11:53:51Z KZiemian: hello world! 2017-10-23T11:54:48Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T11:55:00Z KZiemian: phoe_: are you here? 2017-10-23T11:55:10Z phoe_: KZiemian: I am 2017-10-23T11:55:14Z phoe_: and thank you for the diffs! 2017-10-23T11:55:31Z phoe_: I will try to create a roadmap for CLUS today. 2017-10-23T11:55:40Z KZiemian: phoe_: I glad that I can do something good :) 2017-10-23T11:56:30Z mingus``` is now known as mingus 2017-10-23T11:56:32Z KZiemian: phoe_: but quiet a sarrow come to me from thinking that is a lot work to do and I can't do anything with that 2017-10-23T11:57:05Z KZiemian: phoe_: I think 800-850 of this diffs can go one 2017-10-23T11:57:25Z KZiemian: phoe_: go to latter work 2017-10-23T11:57:49Z KZiemian: phoe_: but this is some many problem left 2017-10-23T11:57:58Z KZiemian: phoe_: like "::= 2017-10-23T11:58:11Z KZiemian: phoe_: like "::=" in macros files. What to do with that? 2017-10-23T11:58:45Z phoe_: KZiemian: macros files, what do you mean? 2017-10-23T11:58:55Z phoe_: Can you paste an example on paste.lisp.org? 2017-10-23T11:59:10Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T11:59:11Z KZiemian: phoe_: in diff macro_something often is such situation 2017-10-23T11:59:21Z phoe_: KZiemian: give me an example. 2017-10-23T12:00:19Z KZiemian: phoe_: ok I will try to use paste 2017-10-23T12:00:26Z otwieracz quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-23T12:00:39Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:00:42Z Shinmera: ::= is part of the BNF notation, which is sometimes used to more closely describe macros. 2017-10-23T12:00:43Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, clhs, say, mop, time, tell, roll, help, deny, have a, 2017-10-23T12:01:04Z phoe_: Colleen: have a BNF notation 2017-10-23T12:01:04Z Shinmera: See for example defstruct 2017-10-23T12:01:04Z Colleen: Thanks for the BNF notation! 2017-10-23T12:01:13Z otwieracz quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-23T12:01:31Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:01:44Z Shinmera: Colleen: make me a better bot 2017-10-23T12:01:44Z Colleen: Enjoy your better bot! It will approximately be ready in 4 centuries 2017-10-23T12:01:52Z Shinmera: Ain't nobody got time fo dat 2017-10-23T12:04:23Z KZiemian: I paste it on Paste number 359327: cl:macros:defstruct 2017-10-23T12:04:48Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:04:52Z KZiemian: I missed a point in Thanks for the BNF notation! 2017-10-23T12:05:03Z phoe_: KZiemian: don't worry about Colleen, it's a bot. 2017-10-23T12:06:03Z KZiemian: I also guesse that ::= is part of BNF but I don't know what to do with problem that apper in diffs 2017-10-23T12:06:06Z phoe_: CLUS has a ::= notation from what I see, at least in DEFSTRUCT http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:macros:defstruct 2017-10-23T12:07:01Z phoe_: Are there CLUS entries where there is = used instead of ::= ? 2017-10-23T12:07:02Z KZiemian: from what I see diff removed colon from most places 2017-10-23T12:07:28Z phoe_: ::= is the correct version AFAIK. 2017-10-23T12:07:29Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, clhs, say, mop, time, tell, roll, help, deny, logout, 2017-10-23T12:07:45Z KZiemian: is you see pasta 2017-10-23T12:07:53Z phoe_: huh? 2017-10-23T12:08:20Z KZiemian: if you can see snipset of code that I try send to pasta 2017-10-23T12:08:32Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/359327 2017-10-23T12:08:45Z KZiemian: you will recognized that : is removed from = sign 2017-10-23T12:08:58Z phoe_: Yes, this should not happen. There should be ::= instead of = 2017-10-23T12:08:59Z KZiemian: and from begining of all keywords 2017-10-23T12:09:15Z phoe_: ...this is very bad. Did the diff tools screw something up? 2017-10-23T12:09:28Z KZiemian: I don't know 2017-10-23T12:09:37Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:09:58Z KZiemian: I just recognized that colons are removed 2017-10-23T12:10:12Z phoe_: KZiemian: please ask this on Discord, so mazoe can respond - maybe he'll be able to help here. 2017-10-23T12:10:23Z KZiemian: okey 2017-10-23T12:10:51Z KZiemian: I do this in the evening 2017-10-23T12:11:15Z phoe_: Okay. 2017-10-23T12:12:02Z KZiemian: is there any chance that we can move CLUS further now? 2017-10-23T12:12:21Z KZiemian: even if further mean 2017-10-23T12:12:27Z phoe_: Yes 2017-10-23T12:12:33Z KZiemian: again checking some diffs? 2017-10-23T12:12:38Z phoe_: What do you mean? 2017-10-23T12:14:10Z KZiemian: If these problem with colons is serious 2017-10-23T12:14:22Z KZiemian: we need again look at least at macros diffs 2017-10-23T12:14:55Z KZiemian: okey I loged on discord 2017-10-23T12:15:08Z KZiemian: I think I can't do this from this computer 2017-10-23T12:15:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:16:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:19:09Z SaganMan: what am I doing wrong here http://paste.lisp.org/display/359328 2017-10-23T12:21:12Z basket: SaganMan: In what way does that not do what you want it to? 2017-10-23T12:21:30Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:21:34Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:23:09Z SaganMan: first, how does when work? If the test followed by when is true, the forms are evaluated from left to right, am I correct? 2017-10-23T12:23:21Z beach: Correct. 2017-10-23T12:23:22Z basket: Yes 2017-10-23T12:25:11Z SaganMan: alright atleast I got that right 2017-10-23T12:25:53Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:26:42Z SaganMan: I want the code to evaluate the three forms when I gave after when. It's saying Dave is unbound variable 2017-10-23T12:27:15Z beach: There is no Dave in your code. 2017-10-23T12:28:14Z SaganMan: beach: dave is the string I give during evaluation. It's c 2017-10-23T12:28:35Z beach: Then you must tell us what you write during evaluation. 2017-10-23T12:28:46Z SaganMan: like 'Dave 2017-10-23T12:28:48Z phoe_: SaganMan: how do you call this function? 2017-10-23T12:29:09Z SaganMan: phoe_: (test-when 1 2 Dave) 2017-10-23T12:29:19Z phoe_: SaganMan: no. 2017-10-23T12:29:28Z SaganMan: phoe_: (test-when 1 2 'Dave) ? 2017-10-23T12:29:31Z jackdaniel: (test-when 1 2 "Dave") 2017-10-23T12:29:32Z phoe_: SaganMan: yes. 2017-10-23T12:29:37Z jackdaniel: if you consider dave being a string 2017-10-23T12:29:39Z SaganMan: ohh 2017-10-23T12:29:50Z basket: SaganMan: You need to write 'dave, or Lisp tries to look up the variable binding. But that isn't a string, it's a symbol 2017-10-23T12:29:57Z jackdaniel: if you want pass symbol, then you do (test-when 1 2 (quote Dave)), or for simplicity (test-when 1 2 'dave) 2017-10-23T12:30:05Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:30:49Z jackdaniel: alternatively, symbols from keyword package evaluate to themself, so there is no need for quotation, you can write (test-when 1 2 :dave) 2017-10-23T12:31:03Z jackdaniel: but it's hardly an improvement over quoting it 2017-10-23T12:31:31Z SaganMan: then how come sometimes it works without double quotes? 2017-10-23T12:31:43Z phoe_: SaganMan: like when? what do you mean? 2017-10-23T12:31:52Z SaganMan: moment 2017-10-23T12:31:58Z beach: SaganMan: String literals are self-evaluating objects. 2017-10-23T12:32:03Z beach: SaganMan: Symbols are not. 2017-10-23T12:32:23Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1 2017-10-23T12:32:23Z specbot: Form Evaluation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_aba.htm 2017-10-23T12:32:28Z jackdaniel: SaganMan: if symbol has associated value, then it will evaluate to this value 2017-10-23T12:32:28Z basket: SaganMan: If dave is a bound variable, then it will look up whatever value it has. (let ((dave "bob")) (print dave)) prints "bob" 2017-10-23T12:32:40Z jackdaniel: for instance (let ((dave "Dave")) (test-when 1 2 dave)) 2017-10-23T12:32:51Z jackdaniel: basket: heh :) 2017-10-23T12:33:45Z KZiemian: I must go 2017-10-23T12:33:49Z KZiemian: see you latter 2017-10-23T12:33:51Z phoe_: See you, thanks 2017-10-23T12:33:55Z KZiemian quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-23T12:34:52Z SaganMan: ohh 2017-10-23T12:35:02Z SaganMan: thanks again folks 2017-10-23T12:37:12Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T12:38:23Z SaganMan: I found it 2017-10-23T12:40:21Z SaganMan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/359329 <<< here I pass (get-grades '((Dave 30)(Harry 40)) 100) I'm doing it without double quotes, I guess that's because it's a list? 2017-10-23T12:40:56Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T12:41:46Z basket: SaganMan: The ' before the list applies to everything inside the list 2017-10-23T12:42:15Z jackdaniel: SaganMan: strings are enclosed in " like "this", and string is a simple expression which evaluates to itself (like numbers) 2017-10-23T12:42:18Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:42:52Z jackdaniel: some expressions are complex and when evaluator encounters them they got evaluated 2017-10-23T12:43:17Z jackdaniel: quotation, abberviated as ' is an operator which prevents evaluation 2017-10-23T12:43:29Z nikivi joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:43:45Z SaganMan: alright, got it 2017-10-23T12:43:54Z jackdaniel: so writing '((dave 30) (harry 40)) is the same as (quote (dave 30) (harry 40)) what means: don't evaluate list ((dave 30) (harry 40)) 2017-10-23T12:44:15Z SaganMan: jackdaniel: if there isn't quote, would it assume the string as variable? 2017-10-23T12:44:56Z beach: SaganMan: A thing like Dave is not a string. 2017-10-23T12:45:03Z beach: SaganMan: It is a symbol. 2017-10-23T12:45:29Z jackdaniel: SaganMan: strings are always enclosed in "" 2017-10-23T12:45:35Z beach: SaganMan: See the section from the Common Lisp HyperSpec that I showed you a link to. 2017-10-23T12:45:59Z jackdaniel: if you don't have "" around your text, it is a symbol, which gets evaluated to the value bound to it 2017-10-23T12:46:15Z jackdaniel: unless you (quote symbol), then you have literal symbol (abberviated as 'symbol) 2017-10-23T12:46:53Z SaganMan: I'm saying string for dave as it's kind of string of characters..sorry. I will use proper words 2017-10-23T12:47:04Z beach: It is not a string. 2017-10-23T12:47:07Z beach: It is a symbol. 2017-10-23T12:47:13Z SaganMan: yes 2017-10-23T12:47:19Z SaganMan: it's a symbol 2017-10-23T12:47:46Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-23T12:47:51Z SaganMan: alright, I got it. Thanks again beach, jackdaniel 2017-10-23T12:47:58Z SaganMan: laters 2017-10-23T12:47:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:51:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-23T12:58:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T12:58:47Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-23T13:00:15Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T13:01:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:03:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T13:03:49Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:11:02Z shka: beach: btw, do you remember about your novel GF dispatch? 2017-10-23T13:11:14Z shka: do you happen to have benchmarks of it? 2017-10-23T13:11:15Z phoe_: shka: I don't think he forgot about it. (: 2017-10-23T13:11:42Z phoe_: shka: someone - likely scymtym - was experimenting with adding this dispatch to SBCL, you could possibly ask him for the results. 2017-10-23T13:11:56Z beach: shka: There are benchmarks in the paper, in Clasp, and scymtym has a benchmark for his implementation in SBCL. 2017-10-23T13:12:27Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:12:31Z shka: do you happen to know how well it works in SBCL/Clasp (real implementations) 2017-10-23T13:14:13Z shka: scymtym: perhaps you can help, please? 2017-10-23T13:16:51Z scymtym: shka: it could probably work efficiently in SBCL, but integrating it would be a huge tasks 2017-10-23T13:17:33Z cods_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:17:33Z scymtym: shka: a somewhat fair benchmark against PCL: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/benchmark-1.png 2017-10-23T13:17:35Z shka: it is undertandable, but i'm interested if you happen to have some comparsion 2017-10-23T13:17:42Z shka: oh, thank you! 2017-10-23T13:17:44Z shka: :-) 2017-10-23T13:17:48Z scymtym: shka: a somewhat unfair benchmark: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/benchmark-4.png 2017-10-23T13:18:01Z Bike: in clasp it dropped our build time by a couple minutes, but i don't have good numbers. 2017-10-23T13:18:26Z shka: scymtym: how is it unfair? 2017-10-23T13:19:33Z cods_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-23T13:19:54Z cods joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:19:57Z scymtym: i suspect that PCL is doing more work in the effective method function in the second benchmark while my prototypical implementation is basically doing nothing. also the method specializers are chosen in way that somewhat favors the decision tree-based approach 2017-10-23T13:20:05Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T13:20:30Z shka: i see 2017-10-23T13:20:39Z shka: thanks for those links 2017-10-23T13:20:45Z scymtym: oh, and the approach relies on SBCL's "layouts in immobile space" feature that isn't available on all platforms 2017-10-23T13:21:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:21:36Z shka: well, distance is non-trivial 2017-10-23T13:21:53Z shka: hopefully, at some point this approach can be implemented 2017-10-23T13:26:06Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:26:48Z k-os joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:28:04Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-10-23T13:28:52Z k-os: is there a way to only load a module of a system, specifically loading only ironclad/kdf without the ciphers 2017-10-23T13:29:03Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:30:53Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:34:13Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T13:34:50Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:37:08Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:38:55Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T13:40:25Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:41:37Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:46:17Z Shinmera: Maybe (asdf/plan:perform-plan (asdf/plan:make-plan 'asdf/plan:sequential-plan 'asdf:load-op (asdf/find-component:find-component (asdf/find-component:find-component (asdf:find-system "ironclad") "src") "kdf-common"))) 2017-10-23T13:49:09Z k-os: Shinmera: I hoped asdf would do it for me ^^ 2017-10-23T13:50:05Z Shinmera: Well it does. What more do you want? 2017-10-23T13:50:25Z Shinmera: I mean you could compute the dependencies by hand and compile-file load, if you prefer. 2017-10-23T13:51:32Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-23T13:51:44Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:52:01Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T13:54:45Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T13:55:23Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-23T13:56:03Z k-os: Shinmera: asdf system dependency description on submodules, but ironclad/kdf also depends on ironclad/ciphers so it's a dead end for me 2017-10-23T13:56:27Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:00:52Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T14:02:04Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:04:48Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:06:53Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T14:10:01Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:12:54Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:14:00Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:14:57Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:16:02Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:17:01Z arduo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T14:23:15Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T14:24:01Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:28:30Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T14:28:31Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:30:58Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:37:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:38:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:39:26Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:40:38Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T14:40:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:46:53Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:47:29Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:48:59Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:51:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:52:05Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:55:50Z Chream quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-23T14:56:31Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T14:57:14Z izzy joined #lisp 2017-10-23T14:58:10Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T15:00:19Z izzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-23T15:00:35Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:02:17Z antoszka: Guys, is there a reader macro for cl-ppcre a la Perl's /regex/ to allow non-escaped direct regex syntax? 2017-10-23T15:02:35Z antoszka: My brain's melting down with the number of backslashes. 2017-10-23T15:02:40Z antoszka: And my code doesn't work ;) 2017-10-23T15:02:48Z Bike: i think cl-interpol has one 2017-10-23T15:02:53Z dlowe: yeah, cl-interpol 2017-10-23T15:02:58Z antoszka: cool, let's see 2017-10-23T15:03:19Z dlowe: I also have a scrap of code that does it, but cl-interpol is probably better :D 2017-10-23T15:03:40Z antoszka: ;) 2017-10-23T15:04:01Z antoszka: enable-interpol-syntax 2017-10-23T15:04:03Z antoszka: what now? :) 2017-10-23T15:04:11Z dlowe: #?/regex/ 2017-10-23T15:04:14Z dlowe: iirc 2017-10-23T15:04:32Z dlowe: it does have excellent edi docs you know 2017-10-23T15:04:41Z Bike: http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/#regular 2017-10-23T15:04:43Z antoszka: cool, yeah, just found them, thanks! 2017-10-23T15:05:33Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T15:05:57Z Chream quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.0.50) 2017-10-23T15:06:14Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:06:19Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:06:31Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:08:32Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-23T15:09:05Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:10:30Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:11:53Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-23T15:16:00Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:16:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-23T15:19:56Z shka: cool indeed 2017-10-23T15:20:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:21:23Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:22:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:22:28Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:24:45Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T15:24:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T15:25:10Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:28:02Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-23T15:32:26Z edgar-rft: let's write interpol arrest warrants via regular expressions 2017-10-23T15:36:47Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:41:45Z pjb: edgar-rft: looped sed is turing complete, so why not? 2017-10-23T15:43:11Z Bike: is that an important quality for arrest warrants 2017-10-23T15:43:25Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T15:45:03Z skm_baig joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:46:07Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:49:27Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T15:50:06Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-23T15:51:25Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-23T15:52:46Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:54:33Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T15:54:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:55:24Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:55:56Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T15:56:26Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-23T15:58:00Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T15:59:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T15:59:57Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:01:35Z crashtestdummy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:02:20Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:03:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:04:21Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:06:42Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:07:28Z sebastien_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:09:18Z sebastien_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:09:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:11:17Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:12:17Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:12:41Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:14:27Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:14:54Z mfiano: I'm receiving lots of bug reports in private and other channels regarding the latest unofficial (un-announced, broken) Quicklisp dist. The problem is pngload (which opticl uses) introduced a pretty major bug in a third-party library, fast-io. While Xach is working on an official dist, the proper fix is to place the current commits of all of the following libraries in your local-projects directory: fast-io, 2017-10-23T16:14:55Z mfiano: bitio, parsley, pngload. Thanks and sorry. 2017-10-23T16:17:35Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:20:53Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:21:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:21:28Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:22:51Z beach: mfiano: Can you explain why Quicklisp is responsible for this, and how pngload can introduce a bug in a different library? 2017-10-23T16:23:41Z mfiano: Quicklisp is not responsible. and pngload did not. a third party library which pngload uses (bitio), introduced a bug in a third party library of pngload (fast-io). 2017-10-23T16:24:55Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:25:05Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:25:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: does bitio poke at fast-io's internals? 2017-10-23T16:25:15Z mfiano: Quicklisp is on hold for announcement because of this and the more major UIOP bug Xach has been working on solving, so it has not been officially released. I can't blame Quicklisp if people have upgraded without an official release of it. 2017-10-23T16:25:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:26:54Z mfiano: fiddlerwoaroof: No, bitio lets the user of it choose a sequence reading function to use with it, whether cl:read-sequence, fast-io:read-sequence, or other. pngload uses it with fast-io. However, bitio uses fast-io with a backed stream, and all current fast-io dependencies use a vector backed fast-io buffer for reading a sequence of bytes, so out of 24 reverse dependencies of fast-io, pngload is the first to 2017-10-23T16:26:56Z mfiano: trigger this bug. 2017-10-23T16:27:35Z mfiano: I have since submitted a patch to fast-io that has been merged. 2017-10-23T16:28:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T16:28:22Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:30:03Z Bike: so it didn't introduce a bug, it just uncovered a previously unknown one, i see 2017-10-23T16:30:17Z mfiano: Yes, sorry for the confusion. 2017-10-23T16:30:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suppose you could introduce a bug in a library by specializing a generic function in a way that breaks things... 2017-10-23T16:31:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, whether that's the library's fault or yours would be debatable 2017-10-23T16:31:46Z dlowe: unless the library doesn't set up its own package, it's probably yours. 2017-10-23T16:32:21Z dlowe: because the generic function's name would still would be a packaged symbol 2017-10-23T16:32:26Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-23T16:34:07Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: The general rule is that client code can only specialize on subclasses that it itself defines, so it would not be the fault of the library then. 2017-10-23T16:34:54Z beach: [it's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the general idea] 2017-10-23T16:34:55Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T16:38:22Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:39:16Z mfiano: the graph looks like: opticl (lots of users) -> pngload -> parsley -> bitio AND fast-io. the problem occured from a recent commit of bitio that affected fast-io, even though neither depends on the other. this same change, was api in-compatible, so parsley and pngload had to also change (in addition to patching fast-io). It was a bit of a tangled mess. :/ 2017-10-23T16:39:41Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:39:44Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T16:41:48Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T16:42:23Z mfiano: and i was only in control of the 2 middle nodes, so lots of coordination between bitio author, fast-io author, and quicklisp maintainer took place. I am sad this happened. 2017-10-23T16:43:43Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:50:11Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:51:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T16:52:08Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:53:03Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T16:53:41Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:54:24Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:54:47Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-10-23T16:54:55Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T16:59:38Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T17:01:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T17:03:49Z richardjdare joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:04:18Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:06:50Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-23T17:07:56Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-23T17:16:07Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:19:05Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-23T17:20:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:20:47Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T17:21:04Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T17:25:06Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:25:23Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-23T17:34:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T17:40:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:46:32Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:48:08Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T17:48:55Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-23T17:49:47Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-23T17:54:22Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-23T17:59:54Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:04:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T18:07:22Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T18:07:32Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:08:09Z asarch: One stupid question: just like JavaScript does, can you redefine a built-in function in Lisp? 2017-10-23T18:08:46Z Xach: asarch: it depends on the implementation. 2017-10-23T18:09:02Z Xach: asarch: it is not a standard thing to be able to do unconditionally. 2017-10-23T18:09:57Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T18:10:06Z Xach: You can pretty easily set up an environment where symbols that look like built-in functions actually refer to something else. 2017-10-23T18:10:47Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:11:04Z asarch: Sorry, connection failures 2017-10-23T18:11:41Z Xach: in other words, you can arrange things such that (defun plus (a b) (+ a b)) isn't using CL:DEFUN or CL:+, but something else. 2017-10-23T18:11:56Z Xach: that's more about the reader and symbol/package management than "overriding" though. 2017-10-23T18:12:16Z asarch: Thank you Xach 2017-10-23T18:12:17Z Xach: overriding would mean that someone else's code would see the overridden things instead of the standard thing. 2017-10-23T18:12:22Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-10-23T18:12:25Z Xach: no problem 2017-10-23T18:12:58Z asarch: Is there operator/function overload in Lisp? 2017-10-23T18:13:38Z stee_3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:13:58Z Bike: you can have functions that dispatch based on the classes of their arguments, but most of the standard fnctions don't. 2017-10-23T18:14:28Z asarch: Ok 2017-10-23T18:16:24Z asarch: Wow! It is very exciting the world of Lisp 2017-10-23T18:16:40Z Xach: yes 2017-10-23T18:16:42Z Xach: so exciting 2017-10-23T18:17:30Z asarch: I'll drop C, C++, Perl, Python from now on and I will only use Lisp for everything 2017-10-23T18:17:35Z stee_3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T18:19:06Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T18:19:31Z Xach: Sounds sensible. 2017-10-23T18:20:33Z aeth: Libraries. 2017-10-23T18:20:40Z aeth: The flaw with "Lisp for everything" is always libraries. 2017-10-23T18:21:06Z Shinmera: Nah. It's that lisp isn't the best tool for everything. 2017-10-23T18:23:02Z aeth: Libraries, types, interfacing with the OS, and (way rarer than C++ and Rust proponents claim) garbage collection. 2017-10-23T18:23:24Z shrdlu68: cffi to the rescue? 2017-10-23T18:24:30Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2017-10-23T18:24:30Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:24:33Z aeth: Except people are using C++, not C, these days for quite a few key libraries and apparently C++ is a lot harder to FFI with. 2017-10-23T18:24:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: The library issues I have are usually because I work in a shop that primarily uses JVM languages 2017-10-23T18:25:05Z Shinmera: The actual FFI to C++ is the same. Finding the functions and methods is the issue. 2017-10-23T18:25:07Z dlowe: fiddlerwoaroof: abcl to the rescue? 2017-10-23T18:25:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: sort of 2017-10-23T18:25:35Z pjb: Shinmera: foremost when they don't exist until you instanciate the templates :-) 2017-10-23T18:25:36Z dlowe: Shinmera: and vtables. And exceptions. 2017-10-23T18:26:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: abcl is great, but I generally just use clojure when necessary, since it is already an accepted language where I work 2017-10-23T18:26:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: LispWork's java interop is also really nice 2017-10-23T18:26:41Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T18:26:45Z shrdlu68: Well, it's a sparser community, so libraries may not be CL's strong point. 2017-10-23T18:28:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:29:10Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T18:29:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: On the topic of libraries, has anyone tried to import a caffe neural net into common lisp and run it? 2017-10-23T18:30:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I don't necessarily need to train it, just to run values through it and get results) 2017-10-23T18:36:11Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:37:08Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:38:20Z KongWubba quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-23T18:38:25Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T18:38:48Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:40:52Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:41:12Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-10-23T18:47:06Z akovalenko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T18:47:30Z akovalenko joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:48:19Z fouric joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:55:36Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-10-23T18:59:31Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T18:59:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:02:18Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:05:03Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:08:30Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:10:47Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:11:55Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:12:13Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:14:27Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:15:32Z KongWubba quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T19:15:32Z patche joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:15:32Z patche is now known as scb 2017-10-23T19:16:33Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:23:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:27:21Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-23T19:28:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:28:20Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T19:30:21Z borodust: Fare: where can i read up about extending defsystem syntax (like adding a property)? or "define defsystem extensions" as mentioned in the guide 2017-10-23T19:30:49Z borodust: Shinmera: also, i remember you did similar thing with qtools 2017-10-23T19:30:50Z jackdaniel: I think it's more about adding methods for asdf operations 2017-10-23T19:30:54Z borodust: oh 2017-10-23T19:30:56Z jackdaniel: and including your system in defsystem-depends-on 2017-10-23T19:31:13Z borodust: ah, i see, lemme check that out 2017-10-23T19:31:17Z jackdaniel: check out asdf-flv for example, how to extend asdf 2017-10-23T19:31:22Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:31:27Z Fare: borodust: not sure what exactly you want 2017-10-23T19:31:28Z jackdaniel: it is a very clear example which is worth reading 2017-10-23T19:31:59Z borodust: Fare: add a "keyword" to the defsystem grammar 2017-10-23T19:32:04Z borodust: jackdaniel: tnx! 2017-10-23T19:32:19Z jackdaniel: sure. I don't think you can add new options to defsystem macro 2017-10-23T19:32:24Z jackdaniel: without modifying asdf itself 2017-10-23T19:32:27Z Fare: most compatible way is "just" to create a subclass of system, with additional slots, and use :class ... 2017-10-23T19:32:28Z borodust: oh 2017-10-23T19:32:51Z borodust: hmh 2017-10-23T19:33:31Z Fare: if you want to add the slot to *all* systems, then patch the defclass system in asdf/system.lisp 2017-10-23T19:34:01Z borodust: i just want to let users of my lib to have hassle free life :) 2017-10-23T19:34:27Z jackdaniel: then don't extend asdf, make your system as simple as possible 2017-10-23T19:34:30Z Fare: borodust: what are you actually trying to achieve (xyproblem.info)? 2017-10-23T19:35:31Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T19:35:39Z borodust: Fare: i want users to be able to set relative path to their assets through asdf facility 2017-10-23T19:36:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:36:08Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:36:15Z jackdaniel: component-pathname is for that I think 2017-10-23T19:36:19Z borodust: Fare: so, instead covering up or asking them to do (asdf:system-relative-pathname :user-system "assets/") do smth like :resource-path "assets/" in their defsystem 2017-10-23T19:36:23Z jackdaniel: or something named similar 2017-10-23T19:36:44Z borodust: which is logical 2017-10-23T19:36:46Z Fare: then how do they access it? 2017-10-23T19:37:05Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:37:09Z Fare: asdf doesn't have a notion of installation path, but maybe it should 2017-10-23T19:37:09Z borodust: Fare: they don't, my library then access them 2017-10-23T19:37:15Z borodust: including packing into binary distrib 2017-10-23T19:37:27Z Fare: well, why do you need the facility to go through asdf at all, then? 2017-10-23T19:37:40Z borodust: Fare: to know full path to resources 2017-10-23T19:37:44Z Fare: or, you can hide the access to asdf for them 2017-10-23T19:38:04Z jackdaniel: logical pathnames fit the bill (and logical-pathname-translations) 2017-10-23T19:38:17Z Fare: do NOT use logical pathnames if you can avoid them. 2017-10-23T19:38:17Z borodust: Fare: i still need to know their asdf system name, which blurries the purpose of hiding it from them :) 2017-10-23T19:39:08Z Fare: what's wrong with system-relative-pathname, then? 2017-10-23T19:39:54Z borodust: Fare: every user would need to use it like a magic and also will break if they will decide to rename their system 2017-10-23T19:40:02Z borodust: in other words, less robust 2017-10-23T19:40:34Z borodust: i remember it was never a good idea to use asdf:smth in actual .lisp files 2017-10-23T19:41:07Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T19:41:19Z danieli quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:41:38Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:41:45Z jackdaniel: borodust: what about simple (register-asset "my-pathname") available for your library users? 2017-10-23T19:42:13Z danieli joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:42:14Z danieli quit (Changing host) 2017-10-23T19:42:14Z danieli joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:42:30Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T19:42:45Z scb quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-23T19:42:46Z jackdaniel: if you want to shoehorn it as asdf file type, you can do that of course, and keep asset files in your own hashtable or something similar of course 2017-10-23T19:42:59Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T19:43:09Z borodust: jackdaniel: how do i know full path then? (or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) is not very robust either 2017-10-23T19:43:19Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:43:23Z Fare: quux had some mechanism for finding installed files 2017-10-23T19:43:40Z Fare: see the quux tarball 2017-10-23T19:43:58Z Fare: a file called path.lisp in qres-build I believe 2017-10-23T19:44:18Z Fare: borodust, (current-lisp-file-pathname) ? 2017-10-23T19:44:22Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:44:54Z borodust: Fare: hmm? what is this method 2017-10-23T19:44:58Z borodust: *function 2017-10-23T19:47:07Z borodust: mhm, can't find this quux thingie 2017-10-23T19:48:46Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:49:03Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T19:49:26Z jackdaniel: that sounds like a case for logical pathnames. otherwise: (defun find-asset (&rest args) (asdf:component-pathname (reduce #'asdf:find-component args))) 2017-10-23T19:49:41Z borodust: :( 2017-10-23T19:49:43Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:49:45Z jackdaniel: and then: (find-asset :library :module :submodule :logo.png) 2017-10-23T19:49:48Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:49:55Z jackdaniel: and voila, you have a full pathname 2017-10-23T19:50:14Z Fare: borodust, the quux tarball is on the qitab page 2017-10-23T19:50:16Z borodust: that's what i do, basically, but system name shouldn't be hardwired into lisp code :( 2017-10-23T19:50:33Z Fare: considering qres was cancelled, there will probably never be a proper release. 2017-10-23T19:51:16Z borodust: i was looking into smth similar to https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/a3c514a88e78376d9031c01249678a4dff1ee6b8/examples/helloworld/qtools-helloworld.asd#L19 2017-10-23T19:52:15Z Shinmera: build-operation is a part of ASDF. 2017-10-23T19:52:25Z borodust: :entry-point too? 2017-10-23T19:52:28Z Shinmera: Yes. 2017-10-23T19:52:35Z borodust: hmm, i see how that was done 2017-10-23T19:52:53Z Shinmera: Can't have non-standard options if you don't also specify a different system class 2017-10-23T19:53:10Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T19:53:49Z borodust: alright, thanks much Shinmera Fare jackdaniel 2017-10-23T19:54:11Z Shinmera: Now, modularize, one of my other libraries, does define a custom system class that extends the options: https://github.com/Shinmera/modularize/blob/master/asdf.lisp#L24 2017-10-23T19:56:12Z borodust: asking for adding :class is less evil here i guess 2017-10-23T19:56:28Z borodust: :class _and_ :defsystem-depends-on 2017-10-23T19:57:47Z Fare: asdf 3.3.0 supports defsystem-depends-on better, but adds a few restrictions 2017-10-23T19:58:17Z Fare: for instance, the ddo target must be in a different file with no ddo dependency cycles 2017-10-23T19:59:00Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-10-23T19:59:22Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-23T20:00:56Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:03:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:04:07Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:04:27Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T20:06:31Z borodust: too bad if user will have several libraries that requires this options though :sigh 2017-10-23T20:06:40Z borodust: *require 2017-10-23T20:09:05Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T20:11:04Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:11:15Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T20:11:39Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:13:10Z ult joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:13:58Z Fare: what option? 2017-10-23T20:14:51Z dlowe: I wonder if it would be practical to form a lisp project specifically to take python's standard library (which is held in high esteem) and duplicate its functionality. 2017-10-23T20:15:26Z dlowe: and by practical, I mean inspiring enough for people to actually join in 2017-10-23T20:15:27Z pjb: Sure. Make a lists. 2017-10-23T20:15:37Z dlowe: There's already a list. 2017-10-23T20:15:38Z Fare: I don't hold said standard library in high esteem -- but I take in high esteem that there is one at all. 2017-10-23T20:16:17Z dlowe: There's something to be said for having a large, accessible base to build off of 2017-10-23T20:16:26Z Fare: that said, these days, I'd rather invest in Gerbil than in CL, but I understand the value offered is very different. 2017-10-23T20:17:02Z Fare: poiu was an attempt at standardizing the very basics -- so basic even asdf needed it. 2017-10-23T20:17:34Z borodust: Fare: :class option 2017-10-23T20:17:51Z Fare: borodust, happily CLOS has multiple inheritance 2017-10-23T20:17:55Z borodust: hmm, actually, following asdf-flv example, i just can propagate system name binding it dynamically, then use this name for finding out absolute path.. 2017-10-23T20:18:06Z borodust: Fare: yeah, but then user would need to do that.. 2017-10-23T20:18:13Z Fare: and/or you can use secondary systems with different classes 2017-10-23T20:18:13Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:18:42Z Fare: that said, beyond a certain point, you'll find that asdf isn't the correct tool. 2017-10-23T20:19:14Z borodust: Fare: look a proper place for what i think i want to do though 2017-10-23T20:19:21Z borodust: *looks like 2017-10-23T20:20:04Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:20:11Z borodust: system's resources, but rather than module-defined (would be a hassle to list all) it is root-path-defined 2017-10-23T20:21:24Z dlowe: one of the problems of such a mega-library, though, is that you get into the hu.dwim problem where you just splinter off from the main CL community entirely. 2017-10-23T20:21:44Z Edwrd joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:22:48Z dlowe is just thinking aloud. 2017-10-23T20:24:09Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T20:24:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:24:45Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:24:48Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T20:27:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T20:28:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T20:30:40Z alexmlw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-23T20:34:00Z Shinmera: Given the number of libraries I've written I have felt that I might be diverging into my own ecosystem too much. I usually try to combat that by splitting things up fine enough that they each manage to stand on their own more or less. 2017-10-23T20:38:14Z Edwrd quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-23T20:38:47Z Shinmera: Whether that's working or not, I don't have much of an idea. I don't know how much of my stuff gets used at all, let alone how often or extensively. 2017-10-23T20:40:05Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T20:41:33Z phoe_: time for telemetry~ 2017-10-23T20:44:07Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:44:59Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-10-23T20:49:06Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-23T20:52:35Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T20:52:47Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T20:52:56Z k-os quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T20:58:34Z richardjdare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-23T20:59:33Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-23T20:59:53Z Fare: lack of a *reference*, *curated* repository for shared libraries is a downer in CL indeed. 2017-10-23T21:00:29Z Fare: ideally, you'd like the really good libraries, whatever they are, to become blessed, ubiquitous, and continually improved. 2017-10-23T21:01:55Z Shinmera: How does one determine whether a library is really good? What happens if someone comes up with a better overall design later? Wouldn't a "this is the best there is" kind of designation discourage rediscovery? 2017-10-23T21:04:12Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:04:47Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:04:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:06:29Z Fare: Shinmera, there are many solutions possible. But thinking in terms of ecosystems rather than just libraries is a big plus. 2017-10-23T21:06:54Z scymtym: maybe people would only roll their own if they had a specific plan for doing better than the blessed library instead of rolling their own more or less by default 2017-10-23T21:07:01Z Fare: i.e. there can be several "reference" ecosystems (compare the OCaml situation, where Jane St offers a complete replacement for the standard library) 2017-10-23T21:07:19Z Fare: (or Haskell, with Hackage vs Stackage as rival ecosystems) 2017-10-23T21:07:24Z Fare: better than none 2017-10-23T21:07:50Z Shinmera: scymtym: Well yes, my point is more that people might be lead to the idea that this is the best thing possible, and thus, even if there was a better way out there, the likelihood of it being discovered was much smaller. 2017-10-23T21:07:58Z Shinmera: *led 2017-10-23T21:07:59Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-23T21:08:20Z Shinmera: *would be, agh. 2017-10-23T21:08:31Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:08:36Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:08:44Z Fare: Shinmera, depends on how rigid an ecosystem is in embracing alternatives and deprecating older designs. 2017-10-23T21:09:33Z Fare: "yes, your library is promising, keep making it better and we'll embrace it and deprecate the current library for the same thing (unless it steps up its game in the meantime)" 2017-10-23T21:10:13Z Fare: e.g. Java has a lot of inertia, yet even its standard library keeps improving. 2017-10-23T21:11:55Z xantoz: python has several libraries that do the same thing, in the standard library, iirc (i.e. one old version, and one new version that is the recommended for new code) 2017-10-23T21:12:05Z Shinmera: Just to note, I'm not against a curated source of libraries, these are just questions that immediately spring to mind that one would have to consider when attempting such a thing for real. 2017-10-23T21:12:44Z scymtym: Shinmera: in my experience, people are likely to write replacements/competitor libraries, no matter how the ecosystem works 2017-10-23T21:12:57Z danieli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:15:42Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-23T21:17:20Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:19:54Z k-os joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:22:22Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:23:08Z marvin2 quit 2017-10-23T21:24:17Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:24:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:27:58Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T21:29:23Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:29:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:31:46Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:32:33Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:33:12Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:35:25Z Fare: also, CL is so much on the "too many half-assed libraries" side of the equation that even if there could be an abuse of curated ecosystems, that's not a present problem for CL at this time. 2017-10-23T21:35:46Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:36:17Z msb joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:36:25Z Fare: Actually, I should try to build a layer of gerbil libraries above gerbil and see how easy that is... 2017-10-23T21:37:47Z xayto quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:39:58Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:42:23Z myrkraverk_ joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:42:26Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:42:55Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:44:13Z myrkraverk_ is now known as myrkraverk 2017-10-23T21:45:03Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:45:58Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:46:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:52:29Z k-os quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T21:53:37Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T21:56:42Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-23T21:57:15Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by 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lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-23T22:45:57Z lambdice: hi all 2017-10-23T22:47:06Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-23T22:47:38Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-23T22:48:15Z lambdice: generaly, when i write a kind of library foo, in foo.lisp i defpackage foo, then the first line after this definition should be (in-package :foo) ? 2017-10-23T22:48:51Z lambdice: before the definition of all the function i export i mean 2017-10-23T22:51:27Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-23T22:57:41Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-23T22:58:19Z lambdice: humm apparently yes, the first form after the definition of my package foo should be an (in-package :foo) 2017-10-23T22:59:44Z lambdice: But i am thinking, in my defpackage from if i need to import some name/symbol from another package, can i just use :shadowing-import-from instead of the basic import-from ? 2017-10-23T23:01:47Z _death: yes, it depends on what you want to say 2017-10-23T23:02:35Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:04:31Z lambdice: yeah i was doing some test with a foo.lisp and bar.lisp defining exactly the same function, so in my main.lisp i choose which on i need with some :shadowing-import-from 2017-10-23T23:05:10Z lambdice: but as :shadowing-import-from works even when there is no conflict why use import-from ? 2017-10-23T23:07:26Z _death: because "works" depends on the circumstances.. if you have your or someone else's symbol and you :import-from a different symbol with the same name, you will get a nice conflict error instead of silently shadowing it 2017-10-23T23:07:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:08:08Z lambdice: _death: indeed!! 2017-10-23T23:08:36Z lambdice: _death: i got it then 2017-10-23T23:09:06Z _death: so by default, to pervent issues like this, you should use :import-from.. only when you really mean to shadow a symbol you should use :shadowing-import-from 2017-10-23T23:09:27Z lambdice: _death: if i get a "nice conflict error" then i can choose if i need to shadow something or not 2017-10-23T23:09:58Z lambdice: there is a builtin way to something like, "import as" 2017-10-23T23:10:17Z lambdice: ? 2017-10-23T23:10:23Z _death: no 2017-10-23T23:10:36Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-23T23:11:16Z _death: if you want to use two different symbols with the same name, you should qualify at least one 2017-10-23T23:11:35Z lambdice: _death: what does mean "qualify" in this context? 2017-10-23T23:11:44Z _death: foo:bar 2017-10-23T23:11:49Z lambdice: i see this word a lots, and i am not sure i understand what it means 2017-10-23T23:11:52Z lambdice: ok! 2017-10-23T23:11:53Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:12:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T23:12:17Z lambdice: let's say, i read that puting all the defpackage in 1 file, like package.lisp 2017-10-23T23:12:34Z lambdice: in package.lisp i defpackage foo and bar 2017-10-23T23:12:56Z lambdice: so in my main.lisp i will have to load first package.lisp, then foo and bar right? 2017-10-23T23:13:47Z _death: you shouldn't do the loading yourself, but write an asdf system definition 2017-10-23T23:14:09Z lambdice: ok, yeah asdf is the next time of my learning 2017-10-23T23:14:23Z lambdice: but i had some trouble to understand defpackage :) 2017-10-23T23:14:25Z _death: but the order is correct, first the package.lisp then the files that in-package 2017-10-23T23:15:05Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T23:15:09Z lambdice: and in foo.lisp first form should be (in-package :foo) and in bar.lisp first form should be (in-package :bar) 2017-10-23T23:15:27Z _death: right 2017-10-23T23:15:35Z lambdice: well finaly defpackage is not so hard!! 2017-10-23T23:15:57Z _death: if you do it this way, it's simple for many cases, yes 2017-10-23T23:16:39Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-23T23:18:27Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-23T23:19:04Z lambdice: i will use quickproject anyway, but before i want to understand a bit how it works 2017-10-23T23:19:16Z lambdice: _death: thx for your help 2017-10-23T23:19:43Z _death: another style that works well for many cases is the one described in http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html 2017-10-23T23:22:51Z lambdice: thx! 2017-10-23T23:24:05Z _death: it has its own gotchas.. for example the association of file path and package name could make it difficult to rename later on, if you're not careful.. but it also has some good qualities 2017-10-23T23:26:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:26:37Z lambdice: yeah i had this question 2017-10-23T23:26:54Z lambdice: about the mix of filepath and package name 2017-10-23T23:27:02Z lambdice: they looks the same with this method 2017-10-23T23:27:20Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T23:28:47Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:29:07Z _death: one cool thing is that you can load just the one module you need (w/ all its dependencies).. so if you have large-project and a module large-project/standalone-utility, and want to load just that, you simply (ql:quickload "large-project/standalone-utility") and it works 2017-10-23T23:30:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-23T23:31:26Z lambdice: indeed 2017-10-23T23:31:40Z lambdice: arf a last question about defpackage 2017-10-23T23:32:05Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:32:23Z lambdice: apprently if i want to import symbol from :foo and :bar i dont need to add them in the :use form instead defpackage 2017-10-23T23:32:33Z lambdice: apprently just importing from them works 2017-10-23T23:33:19Z lambdice: when i wrote i package i used (:use :cl :foo :bar) but apprently it works too with just (:use :cl) 2017-10-23T23:33:28Z lambdice: *my package* 2017-10-23T23:34:26Z lambdice: damn grammar is not with me today 2017-10-23T23:34:50Z _death: :use is different from :import.. my general rule is to :use :cl and possibly other packages I control.. the rest I just :import-from 2017-10-23T23:35:29Z _death: often I :import-from packages I control as well 2017-10-23T23:35:41Z lambdice: _death: so what about :use ? 2017-10-23T23:37:46Z _death: lambdice: :use affects symbol lookup, but does not import symbols.. the set of names it "brings over" is not fixed, and this may create difficult trouble now or in the future 2017-10-23T23:42:22Z lambdice: humm ok 2017-10-23T23:42:23Z emaczen`` joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:43:57Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-23T23:44:03Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-23T23:45:38Z _death: for example, imagine your package uses :quux, a third party package.. you (defun my-function () ...) .. a day later, a new :quux version is out, and it now exports a my-function symbol of its own.. now, your defun will redefine quux:my-function! 2017-10-23T23:46:19Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:46:49Z _death: this has happened to me personally multiple times in the past, and the effect is often very puzzling until you figure it out 2017-10-23T23:47:33Z _death: this is why I adopted :import-from for the last several years 2017-10-23T23:48:48Z _death: less puzzling effects include conflict errors when two packages at some point decide to export same-named symbols.. this has a good chance to happen if you :use utility libraries 2017-10-23T23:50:37Z _death: by the way, the redefinition was even more puzzling because it wasn't me who defined my-function, but another library that used :use 2017-10-23T23:52:15Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-23T23:53:08Z lambdice: _death: indeed :) 2017-10-23T23:53:35Z lambdice: _death: i got it! thx 2017-10-23T23:54:39Z madddj joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:56:52Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-23T23:58:20Z _death: generally the package-inferred-system style helps w/ accidental reuse of symbols, since it encourages small packages (one per file) that export a small portion of their symbols 2017-10-23T23:59:16Z _death: with one-big-project-package you may forget that you used this symbol in another file 2017-10-24T00:00:01Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T00:00:55Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2017-10-24T00:01:55Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-24T00:02:16Z lambdice: _death: indeed i am reading it 2017-10-24T00:03:02Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-24T00:03:29Z z3t0: hi 2017-10-24T00:05:35Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T00:13:11Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T00:13:43Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T00:18:58Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T00:20:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-24T00:25:41Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-24T00:25:52Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-24T00:25:57Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-24T00:35:25Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-10-24T00:35:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T00:37:59Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-24T00:42:52Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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Can someone help me out with a function to generate the following? http://paste.lisp.org/display/359377 2017-10-24T06:37:01Z phoe_: mfiano: would, but I'm running to work - how quick do you need it? 2017-10-24T06:37:39Z shka_: mfiano: check how flatten is implemented in alexandria 2017-10-24T06:37:40Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T06:38:02Z shka_: once you will understand flatten, you will write your function in no time! 2017-10-24T06:38:07Z mfiano: A couple of us have been trying for 2 hours in another channel. Using shared structure is not working 2017-10-24T06:38:16Z mfiano: We tried implementing it like flatten :) 2017-10-24T06:38:26Z mfiano: No rush really, but only here for another hour or 2 2017-10-24T06:38:34Z shka_: give me 10 minutes 2017-10-24T06:38:35Z phoe_: mfiano: I will be unable to help then. 2017-10-24T06:38:37Z phoe_: shka_: xD 2017-10-24T06:38:43Z phoe_: good luck 2017-10-24T06:38:54Z mfiano: Thanks anyway phoe_ :) 2017-10-24T06:40:12Z quazimodo: hi hi 2017-10-24T06:41:09Z quazimodo: is there a _very_ cheap hash function that can take a deeply nested object and return a hash with a reasonable uniqueness, but not something like md5 2017-10-24T06:41:27Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T06:41:39Z quazimodo: basically, a very fast way to say "I'm pretty sure this hash's obejct is different to that has 2017-10-24T06:42:07Z quazimodo: .... basically a relatively low confidence but extremely fast hash 2017-10-24T06:42:20Z mfiano: What is the use-case? 2017-10-24T06:42:40Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-24T06:43:43Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T06:44:17Z Shinmera: "deeply nested" and "very fast" don't usually coincide. 2017-10-24T06:45:18Z quazimodo: stream based view rendering off a single atomic state object is using functional lensing. Because of this, subcomponents on the page can't isolate vdom updates to their own 'setStates' and have to update each time _anyone_ does a setstate, because we can't be sure if they're lensed on other component's data 2017-10-24T06:45:46Z quazimodo: essentially child 1 changes title to 'Hi' and child 3 _must_ update because it's using a lens that _may_ be using child 1's title 2017-10-24T06:46:07Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-24T06:46:37Z quazimodo: perhaps' I'm a silly boy 2017-10-24T06:46:52Z Shinmera: Why can't you be sure what you're viewing through a "lens"? 2017-10-24T06:46:54Z quazimodo: probabyl it's cheaper to just user _.isEqual for the things 2017-10-24T06:48:18Z quazimodo: because the lens literally takes the entire atomic state object as an argument, then picks and chooses what the child component sees as it's own private state 2017-10-24T06:48:36Z quazimodo: the child _thinks_ it has a wholey private state, but in fact that representation may bo comprised of many other components states 2017-10-24T06:48:39Z quazimodo: so 2017-10-24T06:49:04Z quazimodo: we either register what it listens to and do checks if those changed, or compare child's previous state to current and if no changes, don't bother emitting a view update event 2017-10-24T06:49:16Z Shinmera: Then give the lens a capability to tell you whether it cares about another object that you just updated or not. 2017-10-24T06:52:18Z shka_: mfiano: https://pastebin.com/wtQdgQhP 2017-10-24T06:52:51Z shka_: done, more or less 2017-10-24T06:53:04Z shka_: you may want to fix order 2017-10-24T06:53:23Z shka_: that would be swapping args in the append at 26 2017-10-24T06:53:37Z shka_: but as you can see, it is a simple function 2017-10-24T06:54:06Z pvaneynd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T06:54:09Z shka_: got to go boys and girls 2017-10-24T06:54:11Z shka_: have a nice day 2017-10-24T06:54:30Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2017-10-24T06:55:02Z mfiano: shka_: nice, what is 'ac'? 2017-10-24T06:55:06Z shka_: you may also swap mapcar in the 27 line with reduce 2017-10-24T06:55:17Z shka_: that would be more efficient i guess 2017-10-24T06:55:19Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T06:56:16Z shka_: mfiano: acumulate variable, not really needed in how this code works, would be more sensible with reduce instead of append/mapcar combo 2017-10-24T06:56:28Z shka_: but you can fix it 2017-10-24T06:56:34Z shka_: ok, seriously, i need to go 2017-10-24T06:56:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T06:56:52Z mfiano: thanks! 2017-10-24T06:59:43Z k-os joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:01:51Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:02:10Z dotcra joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:02:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:07:29Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:13:20Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-24T07:15:49Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:21:41Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:22:39Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:25:45Z dotcra quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-24T07:26:18Z dotcra joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:26:20Z MrBusiness quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-10-24T07:27:22Z dtornabene: any postmodern users hanging out? 2017-10-24T07:27:33Z loke: dtornabene: Well, I've used it, and contributed to it. 2017-10-24T07:27:39Z loke: Not using it right now though. 2017-10-24T07:27:39Z dtornabene: sweet! 2017-10-24T07:27:55Z dtornabene: no worries, definitely a brick stupid question 2017-10-24T07:28:01Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:28:18Z dtornabene: i'm loading it via quicklisp, and trying to get it to connect to a testdb 2017-10-24T07:29:03Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:29:10Z dtornabene: in sbcl, and i'm getting an "undefined function" via the command line, in sbcl, after having loaded it via quicklisp 2017-10-24T07:29:25Z loke: dtornabene: Paste the error message+stacktrace 2017-10-24T07:30:01Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:31:04Z dtornabene: loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/359384 2017-10-24T07:31:25Z dtornabene: dollars to donuts its some dead simple env step I've missed 2017-10-24T07:31:47Z dotcra left #lisp 2017-10-24T07:31:56Z loke: dtornabene: Yes. You forgot the package name 2017-10-24T07:32:22Z dtornabene: as in :use 'postmodern ? 2017-10-24T07:32:23Z loke: (postmodern:connect-toplevel ...) 2017-10-24T07:32:32Z dtornabene: i am a fool 2017-10-24T07:32:40Z dtornabene: many thanks for your patience 2017-10-24T07:32:42Z loke: USE is always a bad idea. Much better to always prefix your package names. 2017-10-24T07:32:58Z dtornabene: interesting, mind if I ask why? 2017-10-24T07:33:12Z dtornabene: on use being always a bad idea? 2017-10-24T07:33:23Z loke: dtornabene: Because it's very easy to end up with symbol name conflicts if you do. 2017-10-24T07:33:32Z dtornabene: ahh, makes sense 2017-10-24T07:33:36Z dtornabene: thanks again 2017-10-24T07:33:37Z loke: secondary benefit is that it's easy to see which package a certain function belongs to. 2017-10-24T07:33:56Z dtornabene: hadn't thought about that 2017-10-24T07:34:32Z loke: Most people don't, until they write their first large program and want to change the name of a package (for example), or want to identify all places where a certain package is used, etc... 2017-10-24T07:39:11Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:44:41Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:46:13Z phoe_: dtornabene: bordeaux-threads and binary-types both use BT nickname, which has last been a problem... one, or two days ago? 2017-10-24T07:47:24Z dtornabene: interestingly enough i got a problem with an auth failure so I ducked over and tried to connect to a sqlite3 db via datafly....which rec'd use-package 2017-10-24T07:48:28Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:49:57Z dtornabene: this is the error if anyone has any thoughts on *that* error http://paste.lisp.org/display/359385 2017-10-24T07:50:30Z dtornabene: I've got postgres set to allow all all trust via pg_hba.conf 2017-10-24T07:50:33Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:50:58Z dtornabene: sorry, thats "local all all trust" 2017-10-24T07:53:05Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:53:32Z loke: dtornabene: That doesn't work. "local" doesn't mean localhost. 2017-10-24T07:53:44Z dtornabene: oh! 2017-10-24T07:53:52Z loke: local means literally local, connection via a pipe or unix-domain socket (I think) 2017-10-24T07:55:10Z dtornabene: so, I'm assuming I should put the ip addr in there then? as in, via the error 127.0.0.1:something? 2017-10-24T07:55:26Z loke: dtornabene: No. You need to create a user :-) 2017-10-24T07:55:33Z loke: In postgres 2017-10-24T07:55:41Z loke: and assigna password 2017-10-24T07:56:00Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:56:12Z loke uses Kerberos autoentication so I don' thave to deal with passwords, but that takes a bit more effort (the Kerberos support was what I contributed) 2017-10-24T07:56:39Z dtornabene: ha 2017-10-24T07:56:42Z dtornabene: nice 2017-10-24T07:57:06Z dtornabene: i've got the user created via postgres, but I must have bungled the password somehow 2017-10-24T07:57:19Z dtornabene: i can get in via psql 2017-10-24T07:57:49Z loke: dtornabene: plain psql uses local connection, not over the network. There is a config file soemwhere you have to edit to enable network logins. 2017-10-24T07:58:05Z MetaYan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T07:58:42Z dtornabene: loke: but this is on my laptop 2017-10-24T07:58:51Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:59:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T07:59:14Z loke: localhost is still a network connection 2017-10-24T07:59:22Z dtornabene: !! 2017-10-24T07:59:41Z MrBismuth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T08:00:12Z dtornabene: thank you 2017-10-24T08:02:36Z dtornabene: interesting, on a whim I cut "localhost" down to "local" and now it just hangs 2017-10-24T08:03:06Z loke: dtornabene: It tries to do a DNS lookup of the name "local" 2017-10-24T08:03:20Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-24T08:03:24Z loke: Probably found something and now tries to connect to it. 2017-10-24T08:03:37Z loke: type "host local" in a shell window 2017-10-24T08:05:27Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:05:49Z dtornabene: "host local not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)" after printing "local has address 198.105.254.24" "local has address 198.105.244.24" 2017-10-24T08:06:04Z loke: yeah, your network configuration is messed up 2017-10-24T08:06:22Z loke: anyway, that explains why it hung when trying to connecto "local" 2017-10-24T08:06:41Z loke: you should be using localhost, but you need to make sure the user exists and has a password assigned 2017-10-24T08:06:49Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:06:53Z dtornabene: fair enough 2017-10-24T08:07:05Z MetaYan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T08:07:12Z dtornabene: thanks for all the help 2017-10-24T08:07:20Z SaganMan: how can I have two nested if loops in lopp? 2017-10-24T08:07:24Z SaganMan: loop* 2017-10-24T08:08:11Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:08:50Z skm_baig: ,help 2017-10-24T08:08:50Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-24T08:09:05Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T08:10:11Z yCrazyEdd joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:10:47Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:10:49Z loke: SaganMan: (loop ... do (loop ...)) 2017-10-24T08:11:28Z SaganMan: I mean nested if in loop loke 2017-10-24T08:12:05Z jackdaniel: (loop ... do (if foo (loop ...) (loop ...))) 2017-10-24T08:13:46Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T08:15:06Z SaganMan: ohh, I think I once got error for doing do (if..) in loop 2017-10-24T08:15:18Z jackdaniel: or, even better: #1=(loop ... do (if foo #1# #1#)) ;-) 2017-10-24T08:15:35Z jackdaniel: you'll have a lot of nested ifs and loops 2017-10-24T08:16:46Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:18:35Z MetaYan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T08:18:36Z SaganMan: yeah, that's bad 2017-10-24T08:18:43Z SaganMan: nested if are bad 2017-10-24T08:19:33Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:23:31Z dtornabene: loke: fwiw you were dead right, and I really appreciate it, somehow the pswd had gotten messed up. thanks again 2017-10-24T08:24:27Z phoe_: SaganMan: how do you want to iterate? What do you mean, "if loops"? 2017-10-24T08:25:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T08:25:35Z phoe_: (loop with x = ... if (foo x) then (if (bar x) (return 1) (return 2)) else (if (baz x) (return 3) (return 4))) 2017-10-24T08:25:58Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T08:26:48Z SaganMan: ah, then 2017-10-24T08:27:14Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:28:27Z loke: dtornabene: Glad to help 2017-10-24T08:29:59Z SaganMan: thanks loke phoe_ 2017-10-24T08:31:30Z skm_baig quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T08:31:32Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-24T08:37:55Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T08:38:17Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:44:20Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:45:43Z dotcra joined #lisp 2017-10-24T08:54:50Z bw1 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:01:30Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-24T09:01:59Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:02:25Z damke quit (Quit: quit) 2017-10-24T09:02:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:03:15Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:04:38Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T09:06:07Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T09:07:59Z creat joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:08:46Z Shinmera: Is it a new ASDF "feature" to complain with an unrecoverable error when a system tries to modify the standard readtable? 2017-10-24T09:09:04Z Shinmera: This only seems to happen if the readtable modification happens as part of a system loaded through defsystem-depends-on 2017-10-24T09:09:22Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:09:36Z Shinmera: Seems to happen with ASDF 3.3.0, but not with 3.1.5 2017-10-24T09:15:40Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:16:27Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:20:25Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:26:41Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T09:30:21Z scymtym: Shinmera: i think the error is signaled by SBCL. try (with-standard-io-syntax (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\z (lambda (&rest args) nil))) in the repl. maybe ASDF now restores *READTABLE* to the standard readtable before loading a system or something like that? 2017-10-24T09:30:49Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:31:03Z jackdaniel: I'd look on asdf-devel mailing list 2017-10-24T09:31:22Z jackdaniel: I remember I saw something readtable-related recently (after ASDF 3.3.0) there 2017-10-24T09:32:26Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-24T09:32:38Z scymtym: afaik, there is this "syntax control" branch in the ASDF repository which controls the readtable more strictly. i didn't think that made it into master, though 2017-10-24T09:32:42Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/syntax-control/doc/syntax-control.md 2017-10-24T09:32:46Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-24T09:32:52Z jackdaniel: this has some information, not merged to master yet 2017-10-24T09:32:59Z jackdaniel: right, what scymtym said 2017-10-24T09:33:18Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:34:52Z jdtcookie joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:35:14Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:35:52Z beach: Was there a release of SBCL that sometimes signaled an unhandled memory error? 2017-10-24T09:35:54Z jdtcookie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T09:36:21Z beach: A not-too-old release. 2017-10-24T09:36:25Z Shinmera: scymtym: It seems it is signalled by SBCL, but I don't understand why it only happens with ASDF 3.3 2017-10-24T09:37:15Z Shinmera: Furthermore it only happens for defsystem-depends-on. If I first load the dependency manually it works fine. 2017-10-24T09:37:33Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:38:06Z scymtym: Shinmera: no idea, sorry. maybe ask fare directly or ask on asdf-devel as jackdaniel suggested 2017-10-24T09:38:25Z Shinmera: Yeah, I'll do that later. 2017-10-24T09:38:54Z scymtym: beach: are funcallable instances involved? it may be the "slyrus bug" unless you already upgraded after that 2017-10-24T09:39:31Z beach: Right, it comes back. There are definitely those involved, yes. 2017-10-24T09:39:54Z beach: So all this time I thought my computer had a memory problem, but it's SBCL. 2017-10-24T09:40:00Z beach: When was that fixed? 2017-10-24T09:40:06Z scymtym: let me check 2017-10-24T09:40:34Z beach: I have 1.3.18 2017-10-24T09:42:04Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T09:44:52Z beach: I guess it doesn't matter. I'll just download the newest version and see whether I still get those errors. If I do, it's my computer. But it occurred to me that, since no other software on my computer seems to have any problems, it might be SBCL. 2017-10-24T09:45:13Z scymtym: probably 9a20c2c0b04a4b73fd34ac81358082c796a66f68 on Sep 20 which was first included in 1.4.0 2017-10-24T09:45:41Z beach: OK, thanks. 2017-10-24T09:45:59Z beach: So it is likely that the bug is in 1.3.18 then? 2017-10-24T09:47:23Z scymtym: yes 2017-10-24T09:47:53Z beach: Thank you so much! You just saved me the trouble of buying a new computer, installing all the software, etc, et. 2017-10-24T09:47:55Z beach: c 2017-10-24T09:48:09Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:48:54Z jackdaniel: oh, so it was a bug in software after all? 2017-10-24T09:49:04Z beach: It appears that way. 2017-10-24T09:49:05Z jackdaniel: these RAM faults you have talked about 2017-10-24T09:49:44Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-24T09:51:43Z scymtym: beach: your welcome. please note though, that i made sure to always say "may" or "probably" :P 2017-10-24T09:52:23Z scymtym: *you're 2017-10-24T09:52:32Z beach: Sure. Nothing bad is going to happen to me anyway. I just installed the newest version of SBCL. I'll let you know if the problem happens again. 2017-10-24T09:55:13Z moviepiss joined #lisp 2017-10-24T09:55:42Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T09:59:41Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-10-24T09:59:59Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T10:00:21Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-24T10:00:57Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-24T10:05:15Z MrBusiness quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-10-24T10:06:17Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-24T10:16:30Z Guest82_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T10:17:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T10:18:26Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T10:22:47Z Guest82_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-24T10:26:20Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-24T10:28:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-24T10:32:27Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T10:36:03Z beach: scymtym: Works like a charm so far. I'll buy you a beer at ELS. 2017-10-24T10:37:01Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-24T10:44:57Z cods joined #lisp 2017-10-24T10:50:10Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:00:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:00:58Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:03:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T11:06:35Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:06:52Z nika quit 2017-10-24T11:08:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T11:12:29Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:19:04Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-24T11:19:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T11:24:43Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:29:13Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:31:05Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T11:31:10Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:32:07Z pvaneynd quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-24T11:32:44Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:34:02Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T11:36:05Z scymtym: beach: dougk and stassats fixed it 2017-10-24T11:36:48Z jackdaniel: messenger often gets killed, why wouldn't he get a beer for once? ;) 2017-10-24T11:42:38Z beach: scymtym: stassats doesn't attend ELS, though. Does dougk? 2017-10-24T11:44:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:49:20Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:49:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:50:06Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-10-24T11:50:52Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-10-24T11:50:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T11:51:08Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T11:54:55Z scymtym: beach: i don't think so. but i'm also not sure i will 2017-10-24T11:55:20Z beach: Oh! :( 2017-10-24T11:55:54Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:00:08Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T12:05:16Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-24T12:08:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:24:41Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:25:00Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:33:11Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:33:11Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-24T12:33:11Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:35:23Z knobo: the trouble I had some days ago with slime-tramp, was because roswell uses roswell-slime-contribs, not slime-contribs.. 2017-10-24T12:35:50Z paule32 left #lisp 2017-10-24T12:43:13Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:44:18Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-24T12:44:34Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:50:37Z k-os quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T12:51:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:51:40Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:53:14Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:54:41Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T12:55:42Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:55:42Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-24T12:55:42Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:56:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T12:56:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:56:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-24T12:56:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-24T12:57:05Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T12:57:37Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T12:58:58Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:02:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:04:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:05:15Z lambdice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:08:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:10:01Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:12:47Z danieli joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:12:47Z danieli quit (Changing host) 2017-10-24T13:12:47Z danieli joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:13:22Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:14:39Z jmercouris: In case anyone is wondering what the issue is, I have no idea, but using the kivy available via pip 1.91 did not work, I had to install from source 2017-10-24T13:18:04Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T13:18:19Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:18:46Z jmercouris: Ah sorry, wrong channel 2017-10-24T13:19:02Z miatomi_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:19:14Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:19:21Z klosNet_inc joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:19:35Z dlowe: burn the heretic! 2017-10-24T13:19:39Z dlowe: ;) 2017-10-24T13:20:59Z jmercouris: dlowe: don't worry, I'll get to lisp later today, using CFFI, :D also kind of blasphemous 2017-10-24T13:22:00Z moviepiss quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:22:03Z Chream quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T13:22:16Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:23:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:23:27Z miatomi_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:24:47Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:25:11Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:25:38Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:27:27Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-24T13:27:56Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T13:32:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:34:09Z akem joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:37:32Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:41:55Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T13:50:48Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T13:54:16Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T13:56:40Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-24T13:58:57Z klosNet_inc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T14:00:13Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:01:25Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:02:32Z asarch: Good morning :-) 2017-10-24T14:03:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:06:21Z Xach: What's a system that supports asdf:test-system? 2017-10-24T14:06:24Z Xach: A good example 2017-10-24T14:08:12Z Shinmera: 3d-vectors 2017-10-24T14:08:12Z jackdaniel: I think cffi is one 2017-10-24T14:08:32Z jackdaniel: (asdf:test-system :cffi) triggers cffi-tests system 2017-10-24T14:08:46Z Xach: I tried postmodern in the interim and it prompted me for database connection info 2017-10-24T14:08:50Z Xach wonders if the pump can be primed 2017-10-24T14:08:56Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-vectors/blob/master/3d-vectors.asd#L23 https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-vectors/blob/master/3d-vectors-test.asd#L17 2017-10-24T14:09:54Z Shinmera: Xach: Are you working on running tests automatically as part of the Quicklisp dist or something? 2017-10-24T14:10:39Z Xach: Shinmera: yes. the model I'm trying now is "run some code, and if there is an error, save and report the transcript" 2017-10-24T14:10:50Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T14:11:01Z Xach: So I'm wondering how easy it is for failing tests to signal errors, and if that results in a meaningful transcript 2017-10-24T14:11:29Z Shinmera: Depends on the testing framework, I suppose. Some of them capture all errors, others don't. 2017-10-24T14:11:32Z Xach: But the underlying mechanism is purely arbitrary code, so tests can be pretty small and arbitrary and cross-system. 2017-10-24T14:11:33Z guest__ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:12:17Z Xach: Prompted by some recent trouble with a couple systems that compiled independently fine, but had fatal runtime problems working together. 2017-10-24T14:12:42Z Shinmera: I see. Well, having CI with Quicklisp would be very appreciated from my end. 2017-10-24T14:13:44Z Xach: This would be run as part of the dist construction process, is that what you mean? 2017-10-24T14:13:55Z Xach doesn't want to raise hopes mistakenly 2017-10-24T14:14:51Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T14:14:59Z Shinmera: Yes, unless I misunderstood 2017-10-24T14:15:29Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:15:38Z Xach: The idea being that in addition to "does it compile" there would be "do all test 'scripts' run without signaling an error" 2017-10-24T14:16:08Z Shinmera: Okey, and these scripts would be written by you, or? 2017-10-24T14:16:17Z Xach: Shinmera: public git repo, PRs welcome 2017-10-24T14:16:23Z Shinmera: I see. 2017-10-24T14:16:36Z Xach: And with the intent to make it easy to run by anyone else, too -- not tightly integrated into the quicklisp build stuff 2017-10-24T14:16:42Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T14:16:53Z Xach: so I can meaningfully say "check out the latest X and Y and run test script Z to see the problem" 2017-10-24T14:17:22Z Shinmera: An integration test suite would definitely be a good thing to have, since that's often missing. 2017-10-24T14:17:57Z Xach: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#test_002dop is a little discouraging 2017-10-24T14:18:05Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T14:18:07Z Xach: For 3d-vectors specifically, if a test fails, what happens? Is it purely visual? 2017-10-24T14:18:36Z Shinmera: If run through ASDF, yes. 2017-10-24T14:18:55Z Shinmera: 3d-vectors uses Parachute, which offers multiple "report types". Another one would signal errors. 2017-10-24T14:19:24Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T14:19:30Z Shinmera: Most other frameworks offer only one or the other way, with the usual tendency being towards capturing all errors and just reporting, from what I've seen. 2017-10-24T14:20:08Z Xach: Can you suggest a way to get an error if there's a test failure? It doesn't have to be pretty 2017-10-24T14:20:43Z Shinmera: (ql:quickload :3d-vectors-test) (parachute:test :3d-vectors :report 'parachute:interactive) 2017-10-24T14:20:49Z asarch: gcl == clisp? 2017-10-24T14:20:54Z Xach: asarch: no. very different. 2017-10-24T14:21:18Z jackdaniel: asarch: no, clisp is ANSI Common Lisp, GNU Common Lisp is Common Lisp the Language 2 2017-10-24T14:21:36Z asarch: Thank you 2017-10-24T14:21:37Z jackdaniel: CLtL2 is pre-ansi standarization 2017-10-24T14:21:45Z asarch: Thank you very much guys :-) 2017-10-24T14:21:55Z beach: asarch: What is the reason for your question? 2017-10-24T14:22:05Z jackdaniel: asarch: most people recommend using sbcl and ccl for learning 2017-10-24T14:22:19Z jackdaniel: s/and/or/ 2017-10-24T14:22:25Z asarch: In the Ubuntu 16.04 LTS I can find clips, however, in the Debian 9 there is no one 2017-10-24T14:22:49Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-24T14:22:57Z jackdaniel: clips and clisp are two different languages 2017-10-24T14:22:58Z Xach: there is also something called clips that differs from clisp 2017-10-24T14:23:02Z asarch: And I though (equal clisp gcl) => t 2017-10-24T14:23:08Z jackdaniel: clips is an pxpert system 2017-10-24T14:23:18Z jackdaniel: s/pxpert/expert/ 2017-10-24T14:23:26Z asarch: My dyslexic fingers :-P 2017-10-24T14:24:05Z beach: asarch: Neither CLISP nor GCL are very popular choices here, so if you want help to be readily available, it is better to choose something more people use. 2017-10-24T14:24:07Z Shinmera: Xach: I really wish ASDF offered some kind of way to add options to asdf:test-system so that things like that could be configured from there. 2017-10-24T14:24:55Z asarch: Ok, I'll stick to SBCL 2017-10-24T14:24:56Z jackdaniel: herding cats dillema 2017-10-24T14:25:23Z Xach: Shinmera: I wonder about signaling a condition, which would have no effect by default, but for which I could add a handler. but then the question is "which condition?" 2017-10-24T14:26:32Z Shinmera: Xach: A type of warning? 2017-10-24T14:27:08Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:27:22Z Xach: Shinmera: It could be an error type too, as long as it was raised with SIGNAl... 2017-10-24T14:28:17Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T14:28:17Z Xach: Heh, you could use a simple-condition and stuff arbitrary data into the format-arguments. 2017-10-24T14:28:56Z Xach: like a plist with agreed-upon keys 2017-10-24T14:29:21Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-24T14:30:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T14:32:09Z shka: asarch: sbcl is a solid choice, just like ccl 2017-10-24T14:33:09Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T14:33:22Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T14:34:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:34:37Z asarch: Thank you guys 2017-10-24T14:34:42Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-10-24T14:35:49Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T14:36:12Z neirac joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:36:38Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T14:38:16Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:38:34Z whyNOP joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:40:31Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T14:42:39Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:46:13Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:52:03Z Chream quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T14:52:25Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:53:02Z Chream2 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T14:53:02Z Chream quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T14:54:49Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-24T15:00:40Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-24T15:01:35Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-10-24T15:06:50Z Chream2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-24T15:09:09Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T15:10:29Z phoe_: Xach: thanks for adding my stuff into QL! 2017-10-24T15:11:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T15:11:44Z phoe_: Xach: I have one question. CL-LZMA has a very small test suite that verifies that the foreign library was imported successfully and works. 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I was just confused about a couple of things. 2017-10-24T16:18:44Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T16:18:44Z klosNet_inc joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:19:08Z Chream quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-24T16:20:09Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:21:27Z klosNet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T16:22:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:28:55Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:34:30Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T16:37:10Z klosNet_inc quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-24T16:38:22Z Kyo91 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:38:48Z klosNet joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:40:37Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-24T16:40:47Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:43:01Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-24T16:44:08Z klosNet_inc joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:44:49Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:45:21Z Xach: phoe_: Nothing yet - writing up a readme 2017-10-24T16:46:23Z klosNet quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-24T16:46:31Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:47:04Z emaczen left #lisp 2017-10-24T16:47:11Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-24T16:47:15Z neirac left #lisp 2017-10-24T16:47:41Z zmt00 left #lisp 2017-10-24T16:50:59Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:51:17Z emaczen`` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-24T16:51:31Z fantazo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:51:44Z klosNet_inc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T16:51:57Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T16:51:58Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-24T16:53:36Z Shinmera: sjl_: What doesn't work, then? (Can't try it out myself right now) 2017-10-24T16:54:58Z sjl_: Shinmera: well, adding something else to the same mixer seems to stop the sine source 2017-10-24T16:55:20Z sjl_: Shinmera: I was also confused about a couple of things. Like the CHANNELS argument to MAKE-CHANNEL. 2017-10-24T16:55:29Z sjl_: Like, I'm making a channel so I want... 1 channel? 2017-10-24T16:55:43Z sjl_: or can a channel contain multiple channels? 2017-10-24T16:55:52Z sjl_: that sounds weird. 2017-10-24T16:55:55Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-10-24T17:00:07Z Shinmera: sjl: Okey, so, for your example you probably don't want to use a source as the superclass, since sources run a source->buffer translation step after the raw data is decoded. 2017-10-24T17:00:39Z Shinmera: sjl: The reason why sources have a channels argument is because they handle the translation from a single sound sample array to one buffer per channel. 2017-10-24T17:01:25Z Shinmera: sjl: But since you only have one channel and your data is already floats, the decoding step is unnecessary and you could instead directly write into a buffer. 2017-10-24T17:01:28Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T17:01:47Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:02:01Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T17:02:03Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:02:23Z sjl: the channels argument is to cl-mixed:make-channel 2017-10-24T17:02:25Z sjl: not to the source 2017-10-24T17:02:39Z Shinmera: sjl: I guess the confusing part is the name "source". A source, in libmixed terms, is a segment that decodes a single array of encoded audio data into one or more buffers of floats. 2017-10-24T17:02:53Z sjl: hm 2017-10-24T17:02:58Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:03:00Z sjl: so the sine wave generator isn't a "source"? 2017-10-24T17:03:26Z Shinmera: It can be, if you provide the single array of encoded audio. 2017-10-24T17:03:26Z sjl: what would I subclass here? Just a segment then? 2017-10-24T17:03:31Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T17:03:33Z myrkraverk_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:03:37Z Shinmera: But in this case it doesn't make much sense to do so, since a segment works just as well. 2017-10-24T17:03:39Z Shinmera: Yes. 2017-10-24T17:03:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T17:03:52Z Shinmera: Hold on a sec. 2017-10-24T17:04:21Z sjl: Maybe a better name for me to think of "source" as would be "decoder"? 2017-10-24T17:05:14Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T17:05:35Z sjl: I guess that answers my other question: what to do with the buffer make-channel created, which I don't think I need 2017-10-24T17:05:46Z Shinmera: Well, it doesn't really decode either, it's more of a "destructuring" or "normalising" 2017-10-24T17:06:07Z myrkraverk_ is now known as myrkraverk 2017-10-24T17:06:08Z Shinmera: But yeah, changing the names would be a good idea. 2017-10-24T17:06:23Z Shinmera: I don't think anyone really uses this yet, and if so at the point where the name change would screw things up. 2017-10-24T17:06:31Z Shinmera: So I'd be open to deeper refactorings like that. 2017-10-24T17:06:56Z SaganMan quit (Quit: laters) 2017-10-24T17:07:05Z Shinmera: cl-mixed has an example for a custom segment with the logic implemented in lisp: https://github.com/Shirakumo/cl-mixed/blob/master/test.lisp#L127 2017-10-24T17:07:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-24T17:07:46Z sjl: oh, I was also confused on seek-to-sample 2017-10-24T17:07:52Z sjl: what is the position argument there? 2017-10-24T17:07:57Z sjl: a time? a sample number? 2017-10-24T17:08:21Z Shinmera: To the sample number. 2017-10-24T17:08:27Z Shinmera: Would be named seek-to-time, otherwise. 2017-10-24T17:09:03Z sjl: so in my case, it would be implemented something like (setf (pos source) (* time-per-sample position)) 2017-10-24T17:09:03Z Shinmera: The SEEK function handles the logic for translating seconds to sample index though, so all you need to implement is seek-to-sample that resets the input to a specified sample index (if applicable) 2017-10-24T17:09:24Z Shinmera: Well in your case, since a sine wave is inaudibly contiguous, you could just not do anything. 2017-10-24T17:09:35Z sjl: well, sure 2017-10-24T17:09:38Z sjl: but in principle 2017-10-24T17:09:54Z sjl: I should compute the proper x-value to send to SIN next and store that 2017-10-24T17:09:57Z Shinmera: If your POS is in seconds or whatever, sure. 2017-10-24T17:10:14Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:10:36Z Shinmera: Anyway, I feel really horrid at explaining this all in roundabout ways and feel like if I implemented a simple 'source' to demonstrate how things should work would make things much clearer. 2017-10-24T17:10:46Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:10:51Z sjl: yes, a simple example would be helpful 2017-10-24T17:10:54Z Shinmera: Don't have time tonight, but I could give that a shot tomorrow. 2017-10-24T17:11:00Z sjl: there's mp3-source but that conflates a lot of things 2017-10-24T17:11:06Z Shinmera: Yes. 2017-10-24T17:11:13Z Shinmera: I'll also think about renaming stuff. 2017-10-24T17:11:13Z sjl: yeah, now that the jam is done I don't have any rush 2017-10-24T17:11:25Z sjl: cool 2017-10-24T17:11:27Z sjl: thanks 2017-10-24T17:11:34Z sjl: there's just a lot of layers and moving parts 2017-10-24T17:11:52Z Shinmera: Yeah. I tried to segregate things and be modular, but it turned messy instead. 2017-10-24T17:11:57Z sjl: and even if I primarily want to use the top layer (harmony)I need to understand the next one at least 2017-10-24T17:12:04Z sjl: (cl-mixed) 2017-10-24T17:12:49Z Shinmera: FWIW here's how libmixed implements the sine source: https://github.com/Shirakumo/libmixed/blob/master/src/segments/generator.c 2017-10-24T17:13:06Z Shinmera: The code is so long because of lots and lots of boilerplate :^) 2017-10-24T17:13:31Z Shinmera: the essence is just this https://github.com/Shirakumo/libmixed/blob/master/src/segments/generator.c#L56 2017-10-24T17:14:08Z Shinmera: But yeah. I'll throw together some examples tomorrow to hopefully clear things up. 2017-10-24T17:14:15Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:14:18Z sjl: yeah, I've done something like that with portaudio https://github.com/sjl/cl-chip8/blob/master/src/emulator.lisp#L331-L430 2017-10-24T17:14:28Z sjl: just writing directly into the buffer 2017-10-24T17:15:13Z sjl: ah, "angle", that's what I should have called "pos" 2017-10-24T17:15:28Z sjl: I was trying to remember the word I used, but was on a plane without that repo 2017-10-24T17:15:44Z Shinmera: Heh 2017-10-24T17:16:05Z Shinmera: Or just phase 2017-10-24T17:16:37Z eli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T17:18:57Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T17:22:51Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T17:28:45Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T17:30:05Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:30:09Z badkins joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:35:27Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:35:36Z Chream quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T17:35:51Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:44:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T17:52:37Z iarenaza joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:53:34Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T17:56:10Z sjl_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-24T17:57:39Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:01:33Z Xach: phoe_: https://github.com/quicklisp/qlt 2017-10-24T18:03:08Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:03:15Z phoe_: Xach: <3 2017-10-24T18:03:20Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:03:23Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:03:39Z Xach: hmm 2017-10-24T18:03:52Z Xach: I guess I need to make it really easty to run outside of quicklisp dist construction like, right away. 2017-10-24T18:04:09Z Xach: Otherwise it would be pretty hard to know if your thing will do what you want. 2017-10-24T18:08:41Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:10:46Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:12:03Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-10-24T18:13:38Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T18:15:14Z akem: what slime contribs do ppl usually include? I have the slime-fancy one by default, but I noticed that this doens't include slime-cl-indent 2017-10-24T18:15:31Z beach: slime-indentation 2017-10-24T18:16:27Z akem: ah right 2017-10-24T18:18:24Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-24T18:19:53Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-24T18:21:59Z asarch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T18:23:05Z Shinmera: Idk what fancy includes, but slime-sprof is also useful. 2017-10-24T18:23:55Z Xach: ok, this should do it. https://github.com/quicklisp/qlt/blob/master/run-test.sh 2017-10-24T18:24:44Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T18:25:01Z Xach: Ah yes, there are problems with bare $0 and the path, now I remember. But it should work for the documented case anyway. 2017-10-24T18:27:39Z klosNet joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:28:17Z karswell_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T18:28:20Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-24T18:29:53Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T18:31:43Z klosNet_inc joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:34:27Z klosNet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T18:35:33Z okflo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:36:20Z richardjdare joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:39:51Z z3t0: hi! 2017-10-24T18:41:10Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:43:32Z cgay: hi! 2017-10-24T18:44:18Z z3t0: how are things? 2017-10-24T18:46:07Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T18:46:25Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:46:52Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:47:41Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T18:49:42Z void_gazer joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:51:02Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T18:53:19Z richardjdare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T18:56:05Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:57:36Z void_gazer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T18:57:46Z void_gazer joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:57:55Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T18:58:50Z cgay: Functional. 2017-10-24T18:59:11Z klosNet_inc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:02:59Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:03:58Z Shinmera: Not in this channel 2017-10-24T19:05:32Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:06:15Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-24T19:12:05Z okflo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:13:53Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:15:09Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-24T19:16:19Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:16:32Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T19:18:12Z cgay: ob lisp: I was surprised today to rediscover that z must be positive (loop from x downto y by z ...) since it seems natural to say "by -1" there. 2017-10-24T19:18:26Z cgay: positive in 2017-10-24T19:18:55Z Bike: because you indicate the sign with downto or upto 2017-10-24T19:19:10Z z3t0: Can someone help me with some graphics stuff on lisp :) 2017-10-24T19:19:20Z z3t0: I am trying out https://github.com/AlexCharlton/cl-glfw3 2017-10-24T19:19:45Z cgay: Sure. I can see that once you have decided to have "downto" in the language you could arrive at that decision legitimately. :) 2017-10-24T19:19:50Z z3t0: I can get the basic-window example to run as per the instructions, but cannot get it to run if I try copy pasting the example code into my own 2017-10-24T19:19:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:23:11Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:24:05Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:29:41Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:29:55Z lambdice: hi folks 2017-10-24T19:30:18Z lambdice: do you know if the result of type-of is consistent over all the implementation of common lisp ? 2017-10-24T19:30:40Z lambdice: i mean there is a standard about the result of type-of ? 2017-10-24T19:30:53Z Shinmera: In general, the answer is no 2017-10-24T19:31:02Z iarenaza quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:31:15Z lambdice: Shinmera: ok 2017-10-24T19:31:19Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T19:32:01Z lambdice: Shinmera: in fact i am having fun with a little tool for serializing different object, vector, hash-table etc 2017-10-24T19:32:24Z lambdice: and one of the step would be to get the type of the object you want to serialize 2017-10-24T19:32:42Z Shinmera: There's a lot of libraries already available that do serialisation 2017-10-24T19:32:58Z Shinmera: Might want to look at how they do it. 2017-10-24T19:33:09Z lambdice: thx 2017-10-24T19:33:10Z Shinmera: cl-store, ubiquitous come to mind. 2017-10-24T19:33:13Z lambdice: sure 2017-10-24T19:33:25Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T19:33:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:33:52Z lambdice: little noob question >.>, when i download lib with quickload 2017-10-24T19:33:56Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:33:57Z lambdice: where are they stored? 2017-10-24T19:34:05Z Shinmera: (ql:where-is-system :foo) 2017-10-24T19:34:08Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:34:16Z lambdice: i get cl-sdl2 i can load it but cant find the source 2017-10-24T19:34:50Z lambdice: Shinmera: thx a lot! 2017-10-24T19:35:18Z _death: do you know about M-. ? 2017-10-24T19:35:30Z pjb: lambdice: there are constraints on the types and their subtype relationships, but some subtypes may be equal to their supertype, or the implementation may have additionnal types in the middle. Testing (subtypep (type-of x) some-type) or (typep x some-type) will give more consistent results. 2017-10-24T19:35:36Z lambdice: _death: negative prefix? 2017-10-24T19:36:25Z _death: lambdice: no, go to a a cl-sdl2 symbol and type M-. ("alt dot") 2017-10-24T19:36:41Z lambdice: oh 2017-10-24T19:36:54Z lambdice: _death: thx! 2017-10-24T19:37:18Z lambdice: pjb: thx! i have to understand what you wrote now! 2017-10-24T19:37:54Z lambdice: i mean the type "hash-table" is the same on clisp, sbcl ccl ? 2017-10-24T19:38:17Z lambdice: i should try anyway 2017-10-24T19:39:22Z pjb: Yes, but float has 4 subtypes: short-float single-float double-float and long-float. Some implementations have the four subtypes distinct. In some other implementations, short-float = single-float and double-float=long-float. There are constraints on what subtype may be equal to what other. 2017-10-24T19:39:23Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:40:06Z lambdice: pjb: indeed 2017-10-24T19:40:09Z pjb: Another example, the type character has two distinct subtypes base-char and extended-char. But in some implementation base-char = character, and extended-char = nil. 2017-10-24T19:40:37Z Shinmera: I think it's even allowed for type-of to return something other than symbols and conses as long as you can do typep and subtypep with the returned type. 2017-10-24T19:42:08Z pjb: Also, when you consider type-of, implementations may be moreor less specific. eg. (type-of 1) returns BIT or (INTEGER 1 1)… 2017-10-24T19:42:37Z lambdice: indeed this is not so easy to make something consistent then 2017-10-24T19:43:04Z _death: (defun my-type-of (thing) `(eql ,thing)) ;) 2017-10-24T19:43:42Z _death: well, clhs rules that out 2017-10-24T19:44:05Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:44:24Z Shinmera: lambdice: My point is also that the type returned might not even be readably printable. 2017-10-24T19:44:37Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-24T19:45:21Z pjb: clhs 4.2.3 says Type specifiers can be symbols, classes, or lists. so I guess Shinmera is right, # could be the result of (type-of (make-instance 'foo)) Perhaps it may occur when the class is anonymous. 2017-10-24T19:45:51Z lambdice: Shinmera: indeed, pjb point on testing the type with subtypep on something more general 2017-10-24T19:45:53Z pjb: clhs 4.2.3 says also: A class object can be used as a type specifier. When used this way, it denotes the set of all members of that class. 2017-10-24T19:46:26Z lambdice: or the basic "typep" is probably better than type-of 2017-10-24T19:48:17Z lambdice: do you know where i can find a nice tree about type and subtype hierarchy :) 2017-10-24T19:48:19Z lambdice: ? 2017-10-24T19:48:29Z Shinmera: http://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png 2017-10-24T19:48:34Z WorldControl quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-24T19:48:44Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:48:51Z lambdice: Shinmera: thx! i am printing it 2017-10-24T19:49:13Z pjb: But you need to add the variants, such when base-char = character, or short-float=single-float, etc. 2017-10-24T19:49:46Z lambdice: pjb: in fact, i can add these variants.. only and only if i know about them 2017-10-24T19:49:59Z pjb: For this you have to read clhs closely :-) 2017-10-24T19:50:16Z lambdice: pjb: no PLZ! 2017-10-24T19:50:57Z lambdice: pjb: yeah now i can understand clhs a bit more than before 2017-10-24T19:51:27Z lambdice: it is why some people prefer scheme ? 2017-10-24T19:51:39Z lambdice: i heard it is more consistent and easy 2017-10-24T19:51:54Z lambdice: less "dark corner" than common lisp 2017-10-24T19:53:10Z pjb: lambdice: the type lattice in scheme is even worse. 2017-10-24T19:53:25Z pjb: With exact and inexact numbers! (and integers may be inexact!) 2017-10-24T19:54:02Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T19:54:35Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T19:57:06Z shwouchk quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-24T19:58:18Z nast quit (Quit: nast) 2017-10-24T20:01:48Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:02:34Z Chream quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-24T20:02:53Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:04:06Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-24T20:08:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:08:52Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:09:24Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:10:39Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:11:14Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:13:36Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:14:16Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-24T20:15:10Z rumbler31: so i've wondered, while the graph of types is nice, what do people really use it for? 2017-10-24T20:16:12Z Xach: it is a lattice 2017-10-24T20:16:31Z rumbler31: well, like a what? 2017-10-24T20:16:34Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:17:24Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:19:07Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T20:19:35Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:19:36Z Shinmera: They use it to determine type relationships, duh 2017-10-24T20:20:49Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T20:22:41Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T20:23:12Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:25:07Z pjb: rumbler31: to know that you can call the function (defun f (x y) (+ x y)) with as arguments any pair of numbers, including fixnums. Or complexes. 2017-10-24T20:25:08Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:25:17Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-24T20:26:18Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:26:38Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:32:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T20:33:49Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:34:46Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:35:22Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:36:26Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-24T20:37:34Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:41:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:41:21Z cpape joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:44:20Z jasom: Xach: I seem to recall someone saying that it wasn't quite a lattice due to certain array type rules? 2017-10-24T20:46:54Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:47:05Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T20:47:27Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:47:27Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:48:32Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:49:07Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:52:41Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:54:34Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T20:55:10Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:55:35Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-24T20:56:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T21:03:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:04:20Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T21:05:57Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T21:06:31Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:07:54Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T21:08:05Z void_gazer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T21:08:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T21:13:04Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T21:14:10Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-24T21:15:03Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:15:14Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:15:27Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:17:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:19:10Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:22:00Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-24T21:22:31Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:23:22Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-24T21:23:31Z alexmlw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T21:24:45Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:26:31Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T21:27:31Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:30:58Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-24T21:32:59Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-24T21:35:08Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:37:07Z badkins left #lisp 2017-10-24T21:38:32Z margeas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T21:40:30Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:43:20Z Chream_: hi, is there anything like (type-expand ...) for ecl? 2017-10-24T21:43:27Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:44:41Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-24T21:45:17Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:45:49Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:47:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:51:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:51:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-24T21:51:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:52:57Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T21:54:41Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T21:55:40Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:56:04Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-24T21:56:07Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-10-24T21:57:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T21:59:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T22:00:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T22:06:13Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:06:43Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-24T22:07:00Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:08:21Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:08:22Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T22:08:53Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:08:58Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:10:04Z vsync: this may already be documented but why does ASDF have (ASDF:LOAD-OP op ...) rather than (op ...)? 2017-10-24T22:10:13Z vsync: working on a vaguely analogous system design 2017-10-24T22:10:28Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T22:11:50Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-24T22:12:24Z Shinmera: ASDF:LOAD-OP is not a function. What are you going on about? 2017-10-24T22:13:35Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-24T22:15:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-24T22:15:15Z vsync: er haha 2017-10-24T22:15:16Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-10-24T22:15:25Z vsync: (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP ...) rather 2017-10-24T22:15:56Z Shinmera: load-op is the name for a class that is used to perform an action. 2017-10-24T22:16:20Z Shinmera: oos stands for "operate on system" and will construct the operation object for you, then compute a plan for said operation on the given component, and finally execute it. 2017-10-24T22:16:21Z vsync: yes, but why not a LOAD-OP generic function? 2017-10-24T22:16:32Z vsync: oh hmm 2017-10-24T22:16:36Z Bike: because there are other kinds of operations from loading 2017-10-24T22:16:53Z vsync: I understand there are different kinds of operations 2017-10-24T22:16:59Z Shinmera: Because PERFORM is a method that uses multiple-dispatch so you can specify on component, operation, or both. 2017-10-24T22:17:25Z Shinmera: So making a method for each operation instead, aside from not allowing you to associate data with the operation, would be less flexible. 2017-10-24T22:17:49Z vsync: although you could have a funcallable-standard-object 2017-10-24T22:17:52Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-24T22:17:54Z vsync: though constructing it would be different 2017-10-24T22:18:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:18:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-24T22:18:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:18:15Z Shinmera: Invoking the MOP and other such things is not exactly a great idea for something that should work on every implementation seamlessly. 2017-10-24T22:18:18Z vsync: cool, I'll look at PERFORM and as a starting point of the docs 2017-10-24T22:18:23Z vsync: MOP! MOP everywhere! 2017-10-24T22:18:55Z vsync: or, "you have a problem and decided to use metaprogramming... now you have a problem-factory-factory" take your pick :) 2017-10-24T22:19:25Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:20:31Z vsync: and yes, I think I've just bought in to redoing my design to eschew gratuitous metaclasses 2017-10-24T22:21:12Z TCZ joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:21:16Z vsync: though I still feel like slots on the metaobject class are conceptually cleaner than :allocation class on the instance class 2017-10-24T22:21:39Z Shinmera: Sure. 2017-10-24T22:21:47Z vsync: but the key seems to be taking a step back and figuring out my protocol before the modeling... it feels like the answers will naturally come forth 2017-10-24T22:22:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-24T22:22:17Z Shinmera: Protocol and interface-first design is something I can only advocate. 2017-10-24T22:23:12Z vsync: I always go for interface-first... protocol classes with more detailed subclasses seems to be the same at a very slightly higher level of abstraction 2017-10-24T22:23:52Z Shinmera: The interface is about how you use something, and the protocol is more about how things interact. There's an overlap, but not necessarily so. 2017-10-24T22:24:43Z vsync: huh 2017-10-24T22:24:52Z vsync: I want to explore that more but have to go for a bit 2017-10-24T22:24:57Z vsync: interesting distinction 2017-10-24T22:25:02Z Shinmera: I should be in bed anyway. 2017-10-24T22:25:06Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T22:25:09Z vsync: heh 2017-10-24T22:25:12Z vsync: night, thanks all 2017-10-24T22:26:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-24T22:27:07Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-24T22:32:34Z Xach: Whee 2017-10-24T22:32:47Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-10-24T22:33:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:34:26Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:35:18Z Chream quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T22:36:48Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T22:38:04Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:39:30Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-24T22:40:24Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-24T22:42:35Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-24T22:43:57Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-24T22:44:53Z Shinmera: Xach: Having a good time? 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2017-10-25T00:19:22Z Bike: it's like, if you had (defun foo (x) (setf x (+ 5 x))) (let ((n 3)) (foo n) n) you'd get 3, not 8. 2017-10-25T00:19:26Z Bike: Something like that, yes. 2017-10-25T00:20:10Z z3t0: Thanks, that did the trick. 2017-10-25T00:22:13Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:33:05Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T00:36:00Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:38:23Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T00:43:30Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:45:42Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:49:22Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:51:34Z thebardian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T00:52:49Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T00:55:51Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:56:29Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-25T00:56:57Z turkja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T00:57:34Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:58:18Z stee_3_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-25T00:58:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T00:59:14Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-25T00:59:41Z stee_3 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:01:20Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T01:03:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:05:09Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:07:23Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T01:07:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T01:12:33Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T01:18:27Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:18:51Z BlueRavenGT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T01:19:12Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:20:14Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T01:21:49Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:22:41Z creat joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:25:19Z snits joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:33:16Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:36:27Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T01:41:12Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T01:45:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:49:49Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T01:53:57Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T01:54:25Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:57:19Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:57:52Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T01:59:01Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T02:01:27Z vsync: jasom: ah good to know... my question was more about the underlying architecture though 2017-10-25T02:03:28Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T02:04:03Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:07:18Z z3t0 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-25T02:07:58Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:10:27Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:12:00Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T02:14:07Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:15:07Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T02:15:41Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:19:57Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T02:20:10Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:20:33Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T02:20:56Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:33:14Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T02:34:26Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T02:40:06Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:40:20Z thebardian left #lisp 2017-10-25T02:40:32Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T02:41:33Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:41:58Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T02:42:51Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:43:02Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:45:45Z whoman: Bike, hm, is that because setf returns the previous value.. ? 2017-10-25T02:45:59Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:46:08Z iqubic: How do you define a new "setf-able" place? 2017-10-25T02:46:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T02:46:13Z Bike: whoman: what? 2017-10-25T02:46:26Z Bike: iqubic: define-setf-expander, defsetf, define-modify-macro, (defun (setf ...) ...) 2017-10-25T02:46:34Z iqubic: Cool. 2017-10-25T02:49:24Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T02:50:01Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T02:50:17Z loke joined #lisp 2017-10-25T02:56:57Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T02:57:32Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:01:25Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-10-25T03:01:47Z pjb: (defgeneric (setf …)…) and (defmethod (setf …)…) too. 2017-10-25T03:01:51Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:02:21Z pjb: as well as flet or labels! :-) 2017-10-25T03:03:52Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:07:02Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T03:07:35Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:09:59Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-25T03:11:58Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:13:20Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:15:02Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:15:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:17:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:24:27Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T03:24:34Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:27:08Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:27:24Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:28:03Z sjl quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-10-25T03:28:18Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-10-25T03:30:21Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:33:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:33:51Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:34:27Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:35:42Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:35:54Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:38:10Z loke: Hello lisp 2017-10-25T03:38:30Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T03:38:50Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:39:14Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:40:42Z iqubic: Hey loke. 2017-10-25T03:41:38Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:43:19Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:43:38Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:45:05Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T03:46:09Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:50:10Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:50:36Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T03:51:04Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T04:01:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T04:02:14Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-25T04:02:53Z iqubic: Morning beach. 2017-10-25T04:02:57Z shka_: hello there 2017-10-25T04:03:34Z flavio81: good morning R. 2017-10-25T04:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T04:04:33Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T04:05:46Z Kyo91 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T04:06:01Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T04:08:24Z shka_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T04:13:19Z Kyo91 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T04:14:59Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T04:17:57Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-25T04:24:52Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-25T04:25:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T04:29:29Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-25T04:29:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T04:34:02Z lambdice: morning folks 2017-10-25T04:34:17Z beach: Hello lambdice. 2017-10-25T04:34:42Z lambdice: beach: so you are in the same side of the earth as me :) 2017-10-25T04:34:52Z lambdice: not all lisper are americans then ! 2017-10-25T04:35:44Z beach: Er, the European Lisp Symposium is the most active Lisp gathering. 2017-10-25T04:36:21Z beach: I am willing to bet that there are more European Lispers here than North American Lispers. 2017-10-25T04:36:24Z flavio81: it's 2017 and so far on the 'net i've seen lispers around the world 2017-10-25T04:36:51Z flavio81: beach-> france; eitaro->japan, eudoxia->uruguay, rainer joswig->germany etc etc 2017-10-25T04:36:59Z beach: Indeed. 2017-10-25T04:37:09Z flavio81: i guess in the past it was more centered to USA and/or EU 2017-10-25T04:37:12Z beach: Australia, Singapore. 2017-10-25T04:37:25Z iqubic is from Seattle, Wa, USA 2017-10-25T04:37:28Z lambdice: beach: we are from same country then! 2017-10-25T04:37:58Z beach: Maybe so. I live in a place called the European Union. 2017-10-25T04:38:42Z lambdice: i think i read that lisp was promoted by ppl from MIT, while ppl on the EU choose prolog 2017-10-25T04:38:44Z lambdice: chose* 2017-10-25T04:39:06Z lambdice: but it was about the AI field 2017-10-25T04:40:17Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T04:40:36Z flavio81: there was also the EuLisp standard 2017-10-25T04:41:09Z lambdice: any chance to see a knight of the lambda calculus on this chan ? 2017-10-25T04:41:11Z lambdice: :) 2017-10-25T04:41:24Z flavio81: if i have read correctly, on a paper by Richard P. Gabriel on the history of Lisp, part of the reason the USA pushed for standarizing Common Lisp was that they were afraid the EU could do it before them 2017-10-25T04:42:44Z beach: Things have changed. The US industry and academia abandoned Common Lisp. Nobody in Europe ever used EuLisp it seems. Now, Common Lisp seems to be used more outside the US than inside. 2017-10-25T04:43:03Z shka_: ironic 2017-10-25T04:43:16Z beach: Doesn't matter anymore. 2017-10-25T04:43:29Z flavio81: what about ISLISP? so far it is the only ISO lisp; did it get any usage? 2017-10-25T04:43:34Z beach: Now, Poland seems to be the center of activity in the Common Lisp world. I think that is great. 2017-10-25T04:43:43Z shka_: haha 2017-10-25T04:43:44Z shka_: no way 2017-10-25T04:44:12Z shka_: but truth be told i stumble on lispers without trying 2017-10-25T04:44:13Z lambdice: ahah indeed, i was curious and checked some the trend on lisp job 2017-10-25T04:44:20Z flavio81: Poland? amazing, i had a visit from two high level polish guys from my company, they command a team of data analysts (among other people) and they thought Lisp was a 1950s language (implying no further evolution) 2017-10-25T04:44:29Z lambdice: and a lot were in eastern europe 2017-10-25T04:44:53Z flavio81: well, better for me, perhaps one day they'll get me a job there, once I finally grok CL 2017-10-25T04:45:15Z lambdice: well ofc i saw a lot about clojure few years ago 2017-10-25T04:45:25Z flavio81: i just learnt clojure yesterday (!) 2017-10-25T04:45:25Z beach: shka_: Look at it this way. Currently Poland has the advantage of a high level of skill in its programmers, yet salaries are low. Soon, salaries will rise to the level of the rest of the EU. Then what will you do? One way to stay ahead would be to use better programming tools, so that you can be more productive than others. 2017-10-25T04:45:33Z lambdice: as a lisper would you like to works on clojure? 2017-10-25T04:45:56Z flavio81: hahaha ... great question lambdice ! 2017-10-25T04:46:05Z shka_: lambdice: sure, clojure is quite cool 2017-10-25T04:46:22Z lambdice: beach: man when salary grow java is just arround the corner as usual 2017-10-25T04:46:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T04:46:43Z shka_: beach: that's not how it works and you know it 2017-10-25T04:47:08Z beach: shka_: Bah, you assume that you have no power to fix things. I don't buy that. 2017-10-25T04:47:12Z flavio81: i just surveyed superficially the language (clojure) and most of its core and constructs. I guess that if they make me choose between java and clojure, i'll gladly take clojure; however if i had to choose between CL and clojure i'd take CL. Nevertheless, i think getting paid for writing in any lisp would be great. 2017-10-25T04:47:39Z borei: hi all ! 2017-10-25T04:47:46Z beach: Hello borei. 2017-10-25T04:47:57Z borei: hi beach ! 2017-10-25T04:48:17Z borei: is there snybody who is playing with cl-opengl 2017-10-25T04:48:50Z flavio81: i simply don't like how clojure is deeply interwined with java. Even the nomenclature. For example in Lisp, you know what it's an "atom". But in clojure, an "atom" has a different meaning, lifted from java.util.concurrent.atomic.AtomicReference, which is what an atom instances, in Clojure. 2017-10-25T04:48:51Z borei: i got a code, seems like it work properly but slow 2017-10-25T04:49:16Z shka_: beach: well, i don't think that i have, that's true. Everything i do comes from my inner needs, not hope to actually change anything. 2017-10-25T04:49:34Z borei: i localized that slow part when i load my data to gl-array 2017-10-25T04:49:39Z flavio81: so clojure is tarnished with Java down to the nomenclature; there are even things that should be in a Clojure "Standard Library", to put it in some way, but they aren't: you need to invoke a java method. 2017-10-25T04:49:40Z lambdice: flavio81: yeah indeed this is why i never jumped into clojure, the java things 2017-10-25T04:49:50Z borei: (setf (gl:glaref coord-array i) (aref (vertices object-actor) i))) 2017-10-25T04:50:07Z borei: there is loop ~30000 iteration 2017-10-25T04:50:29Z borei: time shows that it takes ~0.7 secods 2017-10-25T04:51:37Z flavio81: lambdice: i have programmed in java in the past, professionally for about 3 years; for me, java is repression and Lisp is the opposite extreme; to program in Lisp but still have to submit to calling java functions for TRIVIAL things, is a bit like having to deal with the mafia. It feels dirty. I think it's great that one can call java from Clojure 2017-10-25T04:51:37Z flavio81: easily. However, i don't like when this is used to do things that should be built into the language stdlib in the first place. 2017-10-25T04:51:43Z borei: not sure if im on right direction 2017-10-25T04:52:14Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-25T04:52:35Z shka_: "dealing with mafia" 2017-10-25T04:52:45Z shka_: second best quote this week 2017-10-25T04:53:25Z lambdice: borei: humm not sure if it could help if it is a little snipet you can try to run directly with from C and see if the can find the same bug 2017-10-25T04:53:29Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T04:54:38Z flavio81: shka_: LOL, thanks for the compliment 2017-10-25T04:54:54Z lambdice: indeed it is a good quote :) 2017-10-25T04:55:47Z flavio81: lambdice: i can bet i'm not the first to say something similar. I've not met any experienced developer that liked Java. 2017-10-25T04:55:56Z borei: lambdice: i know that it is loaded much faster in C (well C++ to be honest) 2017-10-25T04:57:23Z lambdice: flavio81: i have found for me that learning the theory of lisp, core of the language, is so easy, but the practice is so hard like packaging, tools, library 2017-10-25T04:57:29Z flavio81: lambdice: i mean, i respect the JVM and it's speed, and the huge amount of libs. But compared to Lisps (plural), it's a low level language where macros are implemented by humans sitting at the desk like monkeys and spitting out tons of boilerplate code (usually to apply some "design patterns" to supply things that the language doesn't allow) 2017-10-25T04:57:40Z lambdice: and for the other language it is the opossite, like python or javascript 2017-10-25T04:57:46Z flavio81: lambdice: packaging in the sense of using packages ? (defpackage ... ) 2017-10-25T04:58:23Z lambdice: flavio81: well yeah defpackage, asdf and also creating application bundle for end user for example 2017-10-25T04:58:37Z flavio81: lambdice: in my workplace we had several Java Macro Processors, they were named Javier, Giancarlo, Flavio, etc... and paid monthly 2017-10-25T04:58:40Z lambdice: flavio81: i never did it yet i am just a lisp hobbyst actually 2017-10-25T04:58:57Z flavio81: lambdice: from which languages do you come from ? 2017-10-25T04:59:20Z lambdice: flavio81: C like language only, and python 2017-10-25T04:59:43Z flavio81: lambdice: ok, "packages" in Common Lisp are basically namespaces. 2017-10-25T04:59:45Z lambdice: flavio81: c at the begining, and python for the most part 2017-10-25T05:00:14Z flavio81: lambdice: which are named "namespaces" in C# and Clojure. Namespaces make your symbol names don't collide as long they are... in separate namespaces ! 2017-10-25T05:00:51Z aeth: I think a lot of the problems with Java aren't Java the language but Java the idioms and culture. 2017-10-25T05:01:07Z lambdice: flavio81: yeah! i learnt it the past week and i discovered asdf these week 2017-10-25T05:01:20Z flavio81: lambdice: ASDF allows you to define "systems", a system is a collection of files where you specify which file depends on which, etc. So the system can be compiled as a whole. Of course, those files will probably do stuff inside their own namespaces (one per file) so symbols don't collide. It's up to the programmer. 2017-10-25T05:01:24Z aeth: There's not much stopping you from writing decent code in Java, it's just not the culture of Java 2017-10-25T05:02:14Z lambdice: flavio81: yeah i learn what is the inferred way to use asdf 2017-10-25T05:02:17Z flavio81: lambdice: then you have quicklisp which is a tool that allows you to easily fetch "Systems" from The Internets, compile them, and have them ready to eat at your machine 2017-10-25T05:02:25Z flavio81: lambdice: it's simple, really 2017-10-25T05:02:27Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T05:02:28Z lambdice: apprently it is good to go this way 2017-10-25T05:03:44Z flavio81: aeth: me and my friends wrote decent java code for years, and when you look at it from a Lisp perspective, that decent code was too long, too repetitive, and could have been implemented in far less time with a more powerful language. In other words, yes, nothing stops you from writing decent code in java. Also, nothing stops you from writing decent 2017-10-25T05:03:44Z flavio81: code in Assembler (really). But it is seldom a good idea. 2017-10-25T05:03:51Z borei: honestly saying, i found that quicklisp is a bit dangerous tool for beginer lisper - too many thinks are happening under the hood 2017-10-25T05:04:02Z borei: things ^^ 2017-10-25T05:04:16Z flavio81: borei: black magic ! 2017-10-25T05:04:24Z borei: yeah sort of 2017-10-25T05:04:34Z aeth: flavio81: give me assembler with s-expressions and a powerful enough macro system and I'd prefer it to half of the programming languages, probably. 2017-10-25T05:04:53Z borei: when i just started i poisoned my system 2017-10-25T05:04:56Z flavio81: lambdice: it's simple, just learn how to defpackage first, then how to define your system (and then compile it using the suitable asdf function) 2017-10-25T05:05:40Z borei: still no OpenGLers here ? :-( 2017-10-25T05:05:47Z lambdice: flavio81: and if i want to share this with a friend :) ? 2017-10-25T05:05:59Z flavio81: aeth: Yes, agree. And assembler has that rare quality (think Lisp) where the code is data -- at the end, machine language is computer words. You can do self-modifying code, etc. 2017-10-25T05:06:22Z lambdice: flavio81: i defpackage, i made nice system, i downloaded sdl2 from quicklisp, i have the best game of the world!! how can i share it with my friend ? 2017-10-25T05:06:56Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-25T05:07:03Z lambdice: dudes.. when you start self-modifying code you never go back! 2017-10-25T05:07:10Z flavio81: lambdice: you upload your project into Github (or in a ZIP file or in a .tar file, etc); and make sure to include the system definition file (.asdf) 2017-10-25T05:07:31Z lambdice: flavio81: why friend will need quicklisp ? 2017-10-25T05:07:34Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T05:07:47Z lambdice: or should i add in the zip the cl-sdl2 lib ? 2017-10-25T05:08:07Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:08:17Z flavio81: lambdice: no no, in the ASDF, using :depends, you specify the libs that your "system" depends on 2017-10-25T05:08:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:08:53Z flavio81: then your friend can download the zip file you're giving him/her; and then he/she uses quicklisp to give quicklisp the task of locating those dependencies, downloading them, and then compiling your system 2017-10-25T05:09:14Z lambdice: flavio81: so end user need quicklisp! 2017-10-25T05:09:47Z flavio81: lambdice: well... if you want to make things happy for him/her, yes. He/she still can just download the dependencies by hand and forget about quicklisp !! 2017-10-25T05:10:20Z flavio81: borei: in which sense did you poison your system ? 2017-10-25T05:11:11Z borei: it (quicklisp) installed all dependecies, so i completely lost what i have and what versions 2017-10-25T05:11:21Z borei: again - im beginner 2017-10-25T05:11:32Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:12:08Z borei: once you are experienced lisp programmer familiar with eco-system - then quicklisp is very powerfull tool 2017-10-25T05:12:26Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:13:06Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:13:12Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:13:24Z borei: inetersting with opengl - my first test was for mesh 100x100, it took .64 secodns to load all vertices approx 30k floats 2017-10-25T05:13:53Z borei: i reduced mesh to 50x50, so it will x4 times smaller, 7.5k floats 2017-10-25T05:14:01Z borei: load time dropped 16 times 2017-10-25T05:14:34Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:14:39Z borei: is it possible that im pushing memory consumption/usage ?? 2017-10-25T05:17:28Z basket: It's a pretty minor complaint but the terminology in Clojure is the worst UX part of it for me. There's atoms, but they're not what Lisp calls atoms, there's an operator/type called cons, but it's not what Lisp calls cons, there's an operator called do but it's not a looping construct, and so on. It just makes for so much friction trying to use it 2017-10-25T05:17:55Z whoman: all things are perfect in their own world, tho 2017-10-25T05:18:44Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:19:15Z flavio81: basket: exactly; even more, exactly what i posted some minutes ago. I really got a bit angry with Clojure use of the "atom" word 2017-10-25T05:19:34Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:19:40Z flavio81: basket: also "ref" ... a bit silly, a bit silly terminology overall, to do things like transactions using STM 2017-10-25T05:19:57Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:20:12Z basket: I'm pretty sure about the second thing I ever typed into a Clojure REPL was (cons 1 2), what a terrible first impression 2017-10-25T05:20:42Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:20:45Z flavio81: basket: i felt like... how about calling things like "perform-transaction" or "do-atomically" ? 2017-10-25T05:21:40Z lambdice: what is your stategy when you are coding you own project, you put a symlink of your asd file into the default directory asdf:*central-registry* or you add your project directory in asdf:*central-registry* and let your asd in your project directory 2017-10-25T05:21:44Z lambdice: ? 2017-10-25T05:21:50Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:22:57Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:23:30Z aeth: Common Lisp, Scheme, and Emacs Lisp are the only Lisps that feel like they actually do things the Lisp way. 2017-10-25T05:23:51Z aeth: So many newer Lisps go out of their way to either be different or to miss the point completely. 2017-10-25T05:24:01Z aeth: (In fact, Emacs Lisp kind of missed the point.) 2017-10-25T05:24:07Z flavio81: lambdice: i'm a lazy guy, i put my projects on what the default central registry dir was... and stopped worrying. But you can define where do you want your central registry. 2017-10-25T05:25:01Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:25:02Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:25:41Z lambdice: flavio81: indeed laziness :) 2017-10-25T05:27:08Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:27:08Z flavio81: lambdice: i don't think a symlink of the .asd file would work. I think you'll have to symlink the whole directory containing the asd file (and the rest of your files) 2017-10-25T05:28:45Z whoman: i would say that about scheme, but not emacs lisp 2017-10-25T05:29:48Z pjb: flavio81: once upon a time symlinks to the .asd worked, I see no reason why it should not still work. 2017-10-25T05:30:07Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:31:13Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:32:12Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-25T05:33:55Z whoman: i have project dir links in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and asdf and ql finds it all 2017-10-25T05:34:01Z flavio81: pjb: Thanks Pascal. I stand corrected. 2017-10-25T05:35:10Z ahungry: if you have a custom project directory, adding something like (pushnew #P"/your/path/here" ql:*local-project-directories*) is useful to include in ~/.sbclrc (assuming you're an SBCL user) 2017-10-25T05:37:38Z whoman: i find it simpler to symlink into ~/ql/l-p 2017-10-25T05:38:10Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T05:38:44Z pjb: flavio81: that said, since quicklisp is able to scan directories automatically, it's better nowadays to symlink directories in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 2017-10-25T05:39:32Z pjb: symlinking asd files was good when we used asdf directly, simplier than pushing lots of directories on asdf:*central-registry*… 2017-10-25T05:39:47Z lambdice: humm 2017-10-25T05:40:01Z lambdice: so i should not usde asdf directly anymore ? 2017-10-25T05:40:25Z flavio81: lambdice: no, that's not what they say 2017-10-25T05:41:04Z flavio81: lambdice: you can use asdf to compile systems... you can also use quicklisp to load and compile systems; because quicklisp uses asdf too 2017-10-25T05:41:11Z whoman: fwiw, something that tricked me up a little, was putting defpackage in package.lisp, which the .asd components includes. it may sound abstract but it solved my initial anxiety with asdf 2017-10-25T05:41:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:42:23Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:42:55Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T05:43:22Z lambdice: whoman: someone on this chan linked me this http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html 2017-10-25T05:43:57Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:44:33Z whoman: hmm. try this https://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ 2017-10-25T05:45:48Z lambdice: yeah i read about just a bit about this, but i would like to understand first how all these things works 2017-10-25T05:46:04Z lambdice: i will probably end up using quickproject i think 2017-10-25T05:46:36Z whoman: okay well may as well go back to the 60s and get into lisp machines 2017-10-25T05:46:44Z flavio81: lambdice: the link looks as an interesting way to define your system, but too much black magic for me 2017-10-25T05:46:54Z whoman: get really into the mindset of hippy age symbolic computation 2017-10-25T05:47:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:47:25Z flavio81: whoman: you will not find any lisp machine in the 60s 2017-10-25T05:48:50Z flavio81: lambdice: just start with putting each of your files in its own package (i'd guess this is just a Good Practice), and then creating your .asd; it's basically as simple as that 2017-10-25T05:48:59Z whoman: lisp machine history** sorry 2017-10-25T05:49:20Z whoman: mit and symbolics and xeroc parc and all that 2017-10-25T05:49:44Z lambdice: flavio81: sure thx for the advice 2017-10-25T05:50:40Z flavio81: whoman: yes, everybody gets nostalgic about them, however remember that in 2017 we don't need any special expensive hardware nor paying expensive licenses to have Lisp running at blazing speed in our machines. So 2017 is better than the 80s or 70s, i'd say, even if Genera is more powerful than Emacs with SLIME. 2017-10-25T05:50:50Z whoman: most projects dont need to be systems aside from makefile collections of packages, i believe, where packages are normal human-sized nuggets 2017-10-25T05:50:56Z pjb: whoman: here are your 1968 hippies: https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/file/view/JohnMcCarthy.jpg/398712454/JohnMcCarthy.jpg https://www.princeton.edu/~blogs/archive/aspire/computingFOU17.jpg 2017-10-25T05:51:16Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:51:16Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T05:51:16Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:51:28Z flavio81: whoman: things like SBCL are a godsend; i mean, a CL compiler with (optional) static type checks, that generates very fast code, for FREE you say? I'll take two ! 2017-10-25T05:51:36Z whoman: systems more so in the times of changesets inside the lisp images like how smalltalk does versioning and patches. cant be sure aside from knowing the history would help to understand more of everything too beyond asdf lambdice 2017-10-25T05:51:59Z shka_: pjb: McCarthy looks majestic 2017-10-25T05:52:08Z flavio81: pjb: McCarthy looks scary ! 2017-10-25T05:52:26Z whoman: it took a long time to set up those selfies. sometimes weeks in advance. photos were quite a big deal back then, remember. 2017-10-25T05:52:30Z whoman: everyone dressed up for pictures 2017-10-25T05:52:49Z whoman: where is the pic of RMS in his tie die and wizard hair 2017-10-25T05:52:51Z lambdice: MacCArthy is playing chess against himself ? 2017-10-25T05:53:09Z whoman: haha yep. like a king posing for a portrait. no one would know 2017-10-25T05:53:12Z iqubic: whoman: I want to see that RMS pic 2017-10-25T05:53:17Z whoman: coming up 2017-10-25T05:53:39Z pjb: lambdice: against a symbolic lisp program! 2017-10-25T05:54:05Z shka_: so many tapes in the background to 2017-10-25T05:54:20Z pjb: Stallman: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTrxALmCcAAfdP_.jpg 2017-10-25T05:54:31Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T05:54:32Z whoman: https://d28dwf34zswvrl.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Richard_Stallman-CC.jpg oh well i guess now 2017-10-25T05:54:33Z whoman: not* 2017-10-25T05:54:33Z lambdice: shka_: it reminds me that i have to return some video tapes. 2017-10-25T05:54:36Z flavio81: pjb : LOL ! 2017-10-25T05:54:45Z shka_: nice photo! 2017-10-25T05:54:46Z flavio81: pjb: that can't be RMS ? is he? hahaha 2017-10-25T05:55:04Z shka_: well, i never seen his chin 2017-10-25T05:55:13Z shka_: because of his glorious beard 2017-10-25T05:55:21Z pjb: flavio81: he is. When we was still working on lisp machines… 2017-10-25T05:55:22Z shka_: so who knows! 2017-10-25T05:55:45Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:55:46Z flavio81: shka_ i wouldn't glorify stallman so much. After all, he made UNIX popular... 2017-10-25T05:55:50Z whoman: girls have boobies. i also missed out in school 2017-10-25T05:56:05Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T05:56:06Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-25T05:56:09Z flavio81: shka_: so the world ended up using operating systems that follow the UNIX paradigm rather than the Lisp Machine paradigm 2017-10-25T05:56:22Z shka_: flavio81: not stallman, just his beard 2017-10-25T05:56:33Z flavio81: shka_ lol 2017-10-25T05:56:55Z lambdice: well i saved the pics and called it stallman-aladin.png 2017-10-25T05:57:22Z pjb: flavio81: unfortunately… 2017-10-25T05:58:01Z Zhivago: flavio: What do you think is the fundamental difference there? 2017-10-25T05:58:03Z pjb: If it had been Strandh instead of Stallman… 2017-10-25T05:58:45Z flavio81: pjb: TOTALLY 2017-10-25T05:58:46Z shka_: beach: do you have glorious beard? 2017-10-25T05:58:52Z beach: Nope. 2017-10-25T05:58:57Z flavio81: Zhivago... you'll be enlightened by this paper by a certain Robert Strandh 2017-10-25T05:59:06Z shka_: so it is because of this! 2017-10-25T05:59:19Z flavio81: Zhivago: metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2017-10-25T05:59:22Z shka_: gosh, i hate code in R libraries 2017-10-25T05:59:27Z lambdice: well this is a bit cryptic for me.. do we need a special kind of hardware for running an operating system using the lisp machine paradigm? 2017-10-25T05:59:29Z Zhivago: Ah, so, processes, then. 2017-10-25T05:59:42Z whoman: lambdice, emacs is good. 2017-10-25T05:59:52Z beach: flavio81: That is one of the most gutsy decisions I have ever seen. If it had been me, I would have chosen the Lisp route, and then failed miserably because people would not go for it. By choosing a mediocre but popular design, RMS changed the world of computing. 2017-10-25T05:59:52Z flavio81: Zhivago: the PDF i linked is a must read. The difference goes beyond processes. 2017-10-25T06:00:14Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:00:18Z Zhivago: I've read it -- it pretty much comes down to processes and implicit persistence. 2017-10-25T06:00:23Z flavio81: beach: Agree 100%. Do you think this has been caused by his in-fighting between the two major Lisp Machine companies? 2017-10-25T06:00:41Z shka_: https://pastebin.com/v7m07NZk 2017-10-25T06:00:44Z Zhivago: But the latter isn't something that makes sense to compare against posix. 2017-10-25T06:00:47Z shka_: seriously people? 2017-10-25T06:00:55Z beach: flavio81: No, I just think he is way smarter than most of us. Certainly way smarter than I am. 2017-10-25T06:00:57Z shka_: that's how you write your code? 2017-10-25T06:00:58Z pjb: Well, in a way he still did it right, with emacs, being a lisp machine in disguise. 2017-10-25T06:01:09Z pjb: Just too bad he didn't make it better a lisp machine. 2017-10-25T06:01:21Z flavio81: Zhivago: not only processes, also the way the information is shared between application. Unix is mostly sharing text-file or binary (multiple formats) info between processes through pipes or files. This information would better be shared in the form of s-expressions. 2017-10-25T06:01:47Z beach: pjb: Yeah, but we are working on it. :) 2017-10-25T06:01:55Z Zhivago: flavio: s-expressions not represented as text or binary data? :) 2017-10-25T06:02:07Z flavio81: beach: Smarter as in "steve jobs is smart"? (that is, smart at marketing shit as chocolate, smart regarding distorting the reality for your own purposes) ? 2017-10-25T06:02:12Z Zhivago: (Apart from that, we can reduce it down to 'processes') 2017-10-25T06:02:53Z pjb: flavio81: smarter in implementing a practical plan. 2017-10-25T06:03:08Z flavio81: Zhivago: they can be represented internally as you want, but the applications should share (and see) s-expressions. We're partly there, curiously, with JSON and APIs; at the end all these mostly interchange information through JSON structures. 2017-10-25T06:03:09Z beach: flavio81: I think that is grossly unfair. 2017-10-25T06:03:11Z pjb: The choice of unix being purely pragmatic. 2017-10-25T06:03:29Z flavio81: beach: ok 2017-10-25T06:03:39Z Zhivago: flavio: So, what's the issue with sharing text or binary data between processes, then? 2017-10-25T06:04:09Z pjb: Next time you see RMS in a conference, ask him why he choose to re-implement unix instead of lisp machines. We'd have GNLM instead of GNU :-) 2017-10-25T06:04:23Z Zhivago: flavio: Or is the issue about not enforcing schema on these protocols? 2017-10-25T06:04:30Z beach: flavio81: Have you even met RMS? 2017-10-25T06:05:12Z pjb: Zhivago: you have to deserialize them. For an example of shared memory S-exp communication, see com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.heap 2017-10-25T06:05:18Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:05:34Z flavio81: beach: Nope. He has been in my city, though. 2017-10-25T06:05:40Z pjb: Zhivago: but then, with com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.heap we also copy the S-exp between the shared heap, and the native lisp objects… 2017-10-25T06:05:47Z beach: Yeah, didn't think so. 2017-10-25T06:06:10Z pjb: Zhivago: for same-implementation communication, one could make a patch to an implementation to be able to move lisp object to a shared area. 2017-10-25T06:06:11Z Zhivago: pbj: That seems like an entirely transparent optimization. 2017-10-25T06:06:13Z flavio81: beach: be gentle with this poor soul, it's 1am here 2017-10-25T06:06:23Z beach: OK, I'll drop it. 2017-10-25T06:06:37Z pjb: Zhivago: well, like a OODBMS is a transparent optimization over other solutions… 2017-10-25T06:07:37Z Zhivago: Sure, but it still comes down to either message passing or object sharing. 2017-10-25T06:07:54Z pjb: With the number of conference and his celebrity, I wouldn't be surprised if RMS has been in the same room as a majority of programmers having written or contributed to at least one free software. 2017-10-25T06:07:59Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:08:02Z flavio81: Zhivago: so if information is exchanged between applications as s-expressions, they are uniform; they can be leveraged by any application (potentially); they will be understood by the OS as well, and they can be even shared by more than one application without requiring it to be copied from process to process 2017-10-25T06:08:04Z pjb: (aka the real programmers). 2017-10-25T06:08:24Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:08:29Z pjb: .Net programmers working only professionally are not real programmers. 2017-10-25T06:08:46Z aeth: flavio81: There are different definitions for s-expressions 2017-10-25T06:09:11Z aeth: Each Lisp language (and some things that aren't Lisps) has its own definition, sometimes very different. 2017-10-25T06:09:17Z flavio81: pjb: what about software under GNU license model but running on .NET CLI/CLR runtime ? 2017-10-25T06:09:49Z Zhivago: flavio: Sure, but there's no obstacle to sharing information structured as s-expressions in the form of text or binary data between processes. 2017-10-25T06:09:52Z pjb: Yes, programmers of such a GNU are real programmers :-) 2017-10-25T06:11:22Z flavio81: Zhivago: yes, there's no obstacle. However, the OS ought to handle serialization to binary data; why should applications do it? 2017-10-25T06:11:27Z pjb: flavio81: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_IkJnTus6Q 2017-10-25T06:11:49Z flavio81: pjb: i saw that movie, it's great 2017-10-25T06:11:58Z flavio81: pjb: please send your money to Blacks Without Soul 2017-10-25T06:12:07Z pjb: Or .Net programmers… 2017-10-25T06:12:48Z flavio81: pjb: whenever you mention "Real Programmers", i'm tempted to reply: "Real Programmers write FORTRAN in any language". "Real Programmers don't use Pascal" and "Real programmers don't write comments: The code is obvious" 2017-10-25T06:13:06Z lambdice: pjb: they are not programmers anymore... they are developpers 2017-10-25T06:13:14Z lambdice: not the same :) 2017-10-25T06:13:32Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:13:33Z Zhivago: flavio: Presumably what you mean is that the message sending interface should do it. Why does it matter where that's implemented? 2017-10-25T06:14:17Z Zhivago: Real programmers don't need pants. 2017-10-25T06:15:01Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:15:08Z flavio81: Zhivago: http://web.mit.edu/humor/Computers/real.programmers 2017-10-25T06:15:10Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T06:15:24Z flavio81: Zhivago: that's what i read whenever i need motivation... 2017-10-25T06:15:32Z flavio81: Zhivago: it's full of gems 2017-10-25T06:15:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T06:16:32Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:16:57Z Zhivago: flavio: I still think that the only fundamental difference between the models is that posix provides multiple virtual machines, and the LMs didn't. 2017-10-25T06:17:39Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:18:59Z flavio81: Zhivago: i'll leave beach to reply, he's far far far far more qualified on these topics 2017-10-25T06:19:16Z pjb: hence emacs. 2017-10-25T06:20:36Z flavio81: pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVVkwtj6Rls 2017-10-25T06:21:07Z flavio81: pjb: look what you've done... now i'm thinking about watching the whole movie again 2017-10-25T06:22:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:23:48Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:24:12Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:24:50Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:24:50Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T06:24:50Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:26:51Z lambdice: flavio81: did you try gui programming with common lisp ? 2017-10-25T06:29:21Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:29:49Z flavio81: lambdice: nope. But there's McCLIM for these purposes 2017-10-25T06:30:25Z flavio81: lambdice: also other (very different) alternatives like EQL which is the ECL lisp implementation talking to the QT toolkit 2017-10-25T06:32:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:34:10Z nick123 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:34:37Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:43:18Z SC2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:46:12Z p_l: flavio81: if you want a mutually-understandable data model between OS components, then S-Expressions aren't the choice (as they are to-disk serialization format), but something akin to VMS ABI with its declared common data type library, or CLR/JVM//Lisp-Machine kind where you have high-level constructs embedded in the "VM" the processes run 2017-10-25T06:46:35Z guest__ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-25T06:47:04Z SC2 quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2017-10-25T06:47:55Z jack_rabbit: although, some operating systems have been very successful with a to-disk-able data-passing model. 2017-10-25T06:48:15Z Zhivago: The tricky part with s-expressions would also be ensuring common symbol identity. 2017-10-25T06:52:50Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:55:02Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T06:55:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:55:30Z jack_rabbit: Zhivago, why is that? 2017-10-25T06:55:49Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:55:49Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T06:55:50Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T06:56:41Z lambdice quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-25T06:57:21Z Zhivago: Well, foo:bar means something other than zoo:bar. 2017-10-25T06:57:40Z jack_rabbit: Ah, nevermind. I see discussion of non-text S-expression representation. 2017-10-25T06:58:26Z Zhivago: Unless you want to be comparing strings you probably want to reduce that down to a nice integerish form. 2017-10-25T06:59:11Z jack_rabbit: String S-expressions would be really easy to parse. 2017-10-25T06:59:28Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:00:47Z Zhivago: Always an option. 2017-10-25T07:00:53Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:01:01Z jack_rabbit: They also have the advantage of looking exactly like what they mean. 2017-10-25T07:01:30Z jack_rabbit: Alternatively, you could try and synchronize symbol representation. 2017-10-25T07:01:44Z Zhivago: On the other hand, they're also very big and it might be expensive to try to share a jpg that way. 2017-10-25T07:01:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:02:50Z jack_rabbit: That's true. But I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive. 2017-10-25T07:03:20Z jack_rabbit: Can't I send a byte-stream? 2017-10-25T07:03:33Z jack_rabbit: or a stream of bytes, rather? 2017-10-25T07:03:46Z Zhivago: Well, the argument was that using byte-streams was what was wrong with posix. :) 2017-10-25T07:03:54Z jack_rabbit: ahh. 2017-10-25T07:04:09Z jack_rabbit: That's silly. 2017-10-25T07:04:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:06:19Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:07:43Z flavio81: jack_rabbit: what's silly is having an OS that only understand and deals with byte-streams at the core level, unlike Lisp Machines 2017-10-25T07:09:03Z jack_rabbit: What operating system understands only byte-streams at the core level? 2017-10-25T07:10:08Z Zhivago: Perhaps it might be useful to clarify what 'core level' means. In posix systems, I would say that only the periphery deals with byte-streams. 2017-10-25T07:11:26Z jack_rabbit: I don't know of a single POSIX interface where the client communicates with the OS using a byte-stream. 2017-10-25T07:11:30Z jack_rabbit: The OS manipulates byte-streams for the client sometimes... 2017-10-25T07:12:29Z xayto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T07:12:56Z Zhivago: Would you consider writing to a socket to be communicating with the OS using a byte-stream? 2017-10-25T07:13:32Z jack_rabbit: no. The OS is not "consuming" the data that I am sending through the socket. 2017-10-25T07:14:23Z flavio81: Zhivago: what I mean is, the OS does not implement facilities for dealing with structured data; thus the applications need to implement them in diverse, differing ways. What i claim is that the OS should also provide services for structured data and interchange such structured data between applications, as part of the services provided by the OS. 2017-10-25T07:15:02Z jack_rabbit: That would be "manipulating a byte-stream" as far as I am concerned. 2017-10-25T07:15:43Z jack_rabbit: flavio81, That would really be excellent, if that could be done. 2017-10-25T07:16:21Z Zhivago: flavio: I would consider writev to deal with structured data -- would you disagree? 2017-10-25T07:17:13Z Zhivago: But it sounds like what you really want is for the OS to prevent communication except via your preferred schema? 2017-10-25T07:17:46Z Zhivago: (Since it's always possible for applications to communicate structured data over byte sequences) 2017-10-25T07:18:18Z jack_rabbit: (Which is in fact what all applications currently do) 2017-10-25T07:19:06Z flavio81: jack_rabbit: That is "manipulating a byte-stream" if you consider that writing Lisp is "manipulating machine language" 2017-10-25T07:19:32Z flavio81: Zhivago: replace "prevent" with "support at a base level" 2017-10-25T07:20:24Z jack_rabbit: flavio81, No, that's right. It's the same thing. 2017-10-25T07:20:40Z flavio81: jack_rabbit, Zhivago: My point is clear: the OS should support a common *structured data*, *standarized* format, giving functions for doing diverse operations with this format, *at a core level* (that is, operations supplied by the OS). This is the only thing I suggest. 2017-10-25T07:21:07Z jack_rabbit: I think that you might really like powershell. 2017-10-25T07:21:08Z Zhivago: If you don't want the OS to enforce it, then this is purely an issue of a consensus between applications. 2017-10-25T07:21:44Z Zhivago: In which case, you should think carefully about why you think this is an OS level issue rather than a library-and-education issue. 2017-10-25T07:22:46Z flavio81: Zhivago: i think it's simply that you prefer your OS to stay as low-level as possible, and i don't. It's a philosophical issue, i think. 2017-10-25T07:23:05Z jack_rabbit: Zhivago, They've tried educating. It doesn't work. People still do different things than what they think they should do. 2017-10-25T07:24:09Z Zhivago: flavio: I think it's more that you haven't understood what I've said. 2017-10-25T07:24:33Z Zhivago: flavio: Either the OS enforces the schema, or it is a matter of consensus between applications. 2017-10-25T07:24:40Z Zhivago: High or low level has nothing to do with it. 2017-10-25T07:31:40Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:31:40Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T07:31:40Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:31:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:32:28Z flavio81: i'm off to sleep Doctor 2017-10-25T07:32:32Z flavio81: (Zhivago) 2017-10-25T07:32:35Z flavio81: good nite ! 2017-10-25T07:32:50Z flavio81 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-10-25T07:35:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:36:28Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:38:14Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:43:01Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:44:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:44:35Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:47:07Z carenz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:49:20Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:50:30Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-10-25T07:55:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T07:59:51Z lambdice quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-25T08:01:28Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:01:43Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T08:03:34Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:10:56Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:10:56Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T08:10:56Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:15:47Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T08:17:33Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:39:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:43:04Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:44:10Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:44:53Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-25T08:45:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T08:45:54Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:45:54Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-25T08:46:52Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:48:14Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:48:55Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T08:50:15Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:50:15Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-25T08:51:22Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T08:52:34Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T08:54:23Z zhormistr joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:56:38Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:57:40Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T08:57:41Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T08:57:41Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:00:07Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:00:21Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:00:22Z carenz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:01:45Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:02:23Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:03:26Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:05:47Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:06:57Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:06:57Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:07:31Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:08:56Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:11:49Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-25T09:12:47Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:14:07Z yCrazyEdd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:14:48Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T09:16:08Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:16:08Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T09:16:08Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:16:24Z Guest74772 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:19:09Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-10-25T09:21:07Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:25:51Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-25T09:29:42Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:29:42Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T09:29:42Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:33:34Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:34:31Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:35:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-25T09:36:51Z dmiles: does sbcl sometimes memoize .. like recursive math that has no side effect? 2017-10-25T09:37:21Z dmiles: (defun fib (n) "Naive-recursive Fibonacci number function" (if (or (= n 0) (= n 1)) n (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2))))) ;; example 2017-10-25T09:39:04Z dmiles: (expecting that users might not memoize themselves) 2017-10-25T09:39:28Z beach: I seriously doubt that it would do that automatically. 2017-10-25T09:41:29Z dmiles: yeah, it would seem sketchy, yet no one would really be annoyed if it did? 2017-10-25T09:42:36Z beach: In general, I would be annoyed if it attempted things I didn't tell it to. 2017-10-25T09:43:20Z rtmpdavid: Sounds like something that would cause a lot of that late-night debugging, honestly. 2017-10-25T09:43:35Z Guest74772 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:43:54Z pax_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:43:58Z dmiles: well sure, it be more pita when things went wrong 2017-10-25T09:44:31Z beach: It would be contrary to the model of calculation that Common Lisp gives the programmer. 2017-10-25T09:45:41Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T09:45:55Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T09:45:58Z dmiles: in the case of if was to write : (defun fib (n) (setq foo 'bar) (if (or (= n 0) (= n 1)) n (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2))))) ;; memoization would defiantely be wrong 2017-10-25T09:46:41Z rtmpdavid: With setq that's not a pure function, though 2017-10-25T09:47:03Z scymtym: i can imagine the #sbcl questions "why is fib(1) 10 times slower while fib(30) is 10 times faster compared to ccl?" 2017-10-25T09:47:14Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:47:20Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:47:22Z dmiles: hehe true scymtym 2017-10-25T09:48:27Z dmiles: rtmpdavid: *nod* right that is what i meant.. it might not be considered sneaky in the case of the non setq version 2017-10-25T09:48:27Z beach: I think 10 times is VERY conservative. 2017-10-25T09:50:59Z ebzzry quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-25T09:51:28Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T09:52:03Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:52:03Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T09:52:03Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T09:55:10Z scymtym: beach: for fib(1) or fib(30)? 2017-10-25T09:56:57Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T10:01:47Z shka: why stop here? 2017-10-25T10:01:56Z shka: use compiler macro for even MORE confusion 2017-10-25T10:05:37Z beach: scymtym: 30, but I may be wrong. 2017-10-25T10:09:07Z pax_ is now known as pax 2017-10-25T10:09:36Z pax is now known as Guest52550 2017-10-25T10:10:38Z scymtym: beach: i was thinking the memo-cache would have been switched to a hash-table at 30 distinct calls, but you are probably right in that 10 times is way off. i guess it also depends on whether we are looking at a cold cache. i'll drop the topic now 2017-10-25T10:13:45Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:13:51Z Trasformatore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T10:14:06Z Trasformatore joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:22:00Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T10:22:45Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:24:28Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T10:25:40Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:25:52Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:25:52Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T10:25:52Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:26:06Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:27:00Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:30:40Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T10:32:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:33:20Z thebardian joined #lisp 2017-10-25T10:33:34Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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You can "unlink" it, though. 2017-10-25T11:53:49Z knobo: ah.. too easy 2017-10-25T11:54:04Z Shinmera: (setf (find-class 'foo) NIL) 2017-10-25T11:54:07Z knobo: (setf (find-class 'classname) nil) 2017-10-25T11:54:12Z knobo: yes. 2017-10-25T11:57:29Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T11:57:32Z Bike: then the garbage collector can hopefully destroy it 2017-10-25T12:00:48Z Shinmera pictures a dystopian future where the "Garbage Collector" is some kinda Terminator-like thing. 2017-10-25T12:01:49Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T12:05:07Z knobo: Would be nice if the gc could go back in time and remove the class before I was able to create instances of it. 2017-10-25T12:06:19Z Shinmera: I, for one, am glad that we don't have time-travelling bugs. 2017-10-25T12:06:34Z Shinmera: Software is bad enough as it is 2017-10-25T12:06:34Z knobo: :) 2017-10-25T12:07:50Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T12:08:02Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:08:41Z _death: you know mark and sweep was jointly invented by god & moses in egypt, right? 2017-10-25T12:09:09Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-25T12:09:13Z Shinmera: Some argue the method used back then was a bit too aggressive, though. 2017-10-25T12:09:31Z Shinmera: It did a very impressive job at compacting, though. 2017-10-25T12:09:54Z _death: it was also evidence for the generational thesis 2017-10-25T12:09:57Z shka: oh god 2017-10-25T12:09:58Z Shinmera: The Noah revision of the algorithm, I mean. 2017-10-25T12:10:10Z shka: it all makes sense now! 2017-10-25T12:11:11Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-25T12:13:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:15:40Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T12:16:24Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:19:37Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:19:41Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T12:19:41Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:21:21Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T12:22:25Z Shinmera: You can still find evidence of all this in SBCL's build process. 2017-10-25T12:23:39Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:24:12Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:24:58Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-25T12:26:38Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T12:28:56Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T12:29:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:33:05Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T12:34:44Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T12:35:23Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:35:35Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:35:56Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T12:46:49Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:47:37Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T12:49:30Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-25T12:49:48Z Shinmera: In other news, I wrote another small webapp over the weekend. Allows you to schedule events and deals with TZ / date repeats and that kinda guff. Here's an example for my Treehouse Sunday event: https://events.tymoon.eu/1 2017-10-25T12:53:00Z easye: Hmm. Trying to chase down non-Quicklisp resources for Clath , but seem to not be finding through the usual search engines a source repository for the 'ps-gadgets' system. Was this part of Garnet? 2017-10-25T12:55:24Z Xach: easye: i suspect it's parenscript-related 2017-10-25T12:55:37Z Xach: https://github.com/BnMcGn/ps-gadgets 2017-10-25T12:56:03Z Xach: easye: one trick i've learned is that if i can't load github.com/user/foo due to missing bar, check for github.com/user/bar 2017-10-25T12:56:24Z Xach: Tricks of the Quicklisp Dist Makers 2017-10-25T12:56:56Z shka: someone should make lisp game engines comparsion 2017-10-25T12:57:07Z Shinmera: Programmers hate him! Local hacker discovers how to find missing dependencies easily. How? Click here! 2017-10-25T12:58:02Z Shinmera: shka: I thought most of the engines aren't even ready for public consumption. 2017-10-25T12:59:01Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T12:59:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:59:40Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T12:59:40Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T12:59:40Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:01:30Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T13:01:51Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:03:07Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T13:04:36Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T13:05:43Z shka: Shinmera: that makes this comparsion even more desirable 2017-10-25T13:15:19Z easye: Xach: thanks 2017-10-25T13:17:50Z Xach: easye: no problem 2017-10-25T13:24:15Z Shinmera: shka: How? If it's not ready it's prone to change heavily, and break your stuff. 2017-10-25T13:24:52Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T13:24:59Z shka: but how can I know which one I can actually use, which one have reasonable UI support and so one? 2017-10-25T13:25:24Z k-os quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T13:25:29Z shka: half baked stuff is just another column in comparsion 2017-10-25T13:25:40Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:25:46Z himmAllRight quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T13:26:47Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:27:51Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T13:28:38Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:28:55Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T13:29:55Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:30:22Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:30:33Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T13:32:06Z kuwze joined #lisp 2017-10-25T13:33:08Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T13:33:10Z grumble quit (Quit: We don’t want to hate and despise one another. 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Some people call the sequence of characters in source code S-expressions. I personally don't. 2017-10-25T14:19:05Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T14:19:35Z tushar joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:19:38Z Bike: as beach said, it's not a term defined by the language itself. we just kind of inherited it in a vaguer way 2017-10-25T14:20:11Z beach: Bike: "form" is in the glossary. 2017-10-25T14:20:17Z Bike: i meant 's expression' 2017-10-25T14:20:22Z beach: Yes, that. 2017-10-25T14:20:30Z tushar left #lisp 2017-10-25T14:20:32Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:20:32Z Bike: common lisp text is more complicated than the SEXP := '(' SEXP* ')' | SYMBOL kind of picture 2017-10-25T14:20:34Z beach: Not defined by the standard as far as I can tell. 2017-10-25T14:20:35Z SaganMan: the other lisp like languages make it even more weird by using the same terms of cl to completely different meanings 2017-10-25T14:20:45Z Bike: such is language. 2017-10-25T14:20:47Z jmercouris: Is there a way to do (:use) in a package after defining it? 2017-10-25T14:20:51Z Bike: clhs use-package 2017-10-25T14:20:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm 2017-10-25T14:21:00Z goteye joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:21:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T14:21:27Z jmercouris: Bike: that's exactly what I was looking for, thank you 2017-10-25T14:22:16Z goteye left #lisp 2017-10-25T14:22:20Z beach: SaganMan: I advice you to use "expression" and "form" to mean the objects created as a result of READing some source code, and avoid using "expression" for a sequence of characters in a stream or a file. 2017-10-25T14:22:40Z goreye joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:23:29Z goreye left #lisp 2017-10-25T14:23:31Z goreye joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:23:31Z beach: SaganMan: Though it is common to hear such things as "That's a LET form" by someone pointing to the source code. But that is an abbreviation for, "when that sequence of characters is processed by READ, an LET expression is created". 2017-10-25T14:23:41Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T14:23:56Z beach: "a" LET expression, even. 2017-10-25T14:24:26Z beach: jmercouris: That may have been what you were looking for, but using it is often a bad idea. 2017-10-25T14:25:06Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:25:37Z jmercouris: beach: This is for explicitly loading a set of symbols when using a foreign package, it's the only place in the codebase I do it 2017-10-25T14:25:56Z jmercouris: I thought about prefixing literally every function call, and I had a commit like that, but it was just too messy in the code 2017-10-25T14:26:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:26:20Z jmercouris: beach: This is actually part of some advice you gave me a long time ago about separating the GUI from the actual core of the program, which I've now done 2017-10-25T14:26:46Z beach: Why not just use :USE in your package definition then? Though that's usually a bad idea for the same reason. 2017-10-25T14:27:02Z jmercouris: because the package definition supports multiple backends 2017-10-25T14:27:16Z jmercouris: when you load a specific file, aka a specific backend, only then should you load those symbols 2017-10-25T14:28:56Z jmercouris: hmm now you are making me second guess myself, maybe I should just include all of the items in the prefix.. 2017-10-25T14:29:04Z beach: Then you can't refer to those symbols in your own package either. It sounds like a terrible way of organizing the software. But maybe I am just not understanding it. 2017-10-25T14:29:11Z jmercouris: I mean, include the package identifier as a prefix for all of the function calls 2017-10-25T14:29:25Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:29:47Z jmercouris: beach: I'll write a short document explaining it, give me a few minutes, I'm sure there's a better way to do what I'm doing 2017-10-25T14:30:08Z SaganMan: I was re-reading what you all said and also read the definations in clhs glossary 2017-10-25T14:30:54Z SaganMan: Form: any object meant to be evaluated 2017-10-25T14:31:24Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-25T14:31:45Z pjb: In either case, you need an indirection. If you can have only one backend loaded at a time, you can have each backend export the same package and the same symbol, and use that in your clients. If you want to be able to load multiple backends at the same time, they need to have different packages, and then you need a registration mechanism, with a backend object to be passed to or found by the client. 2017-10-25T14:32:36Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:32:52Z jmercouris: pjb: I don't need multiple at the same time, I only need one, and they should probably export the same symbols 2017-10-25T14:32:56Z beach: I am wondering whether two backends may define a different set of functions and types. If so, they should not all define a package with one and the same name. 2017-10-25T14:33:17Z jmercouris: I am trying to abstract the two backends as much as possible so that my core code doesn't have to change 2017-10-25T14:33:19Z beach: If they export the same symbols, then the package definition should exist before the code is loaded. 2017-10-25T14:33:37Z beach: Otherwise, you can't refer to symbols in that package. 2017-10-25T14:33:40Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T14:33:50Z beach: And then, you can use :USE if that is what you want. 2017-10-25T14:34:13Z jmercouris: Okay, scratch that, I will not write the document because I think the understanding here is pretty clear 2017-10-25T14:34:20Z SaganMan: Thanks beach, Bike 2017-10-25T14:34:30Z beach: SaganMan: Anytime. 2017-10-25T14:34:49Z SaganMan: this channel is more active than #clnoobs btw 2017-10-25T14:35:08Z Bike: naturally, we're all wizened experts 2017-10-25T14:35:31Z jmercouris: Alright, so, to make sure I understand, I will do something like (defpackage :backend (:export #:functiona #:functionb)) 2017-10-25T14:35:44Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-25T14:35:45Z jmercouris: then within each backend file, I'll do something like (in-package :backend) 2017-10-25T14:35:49Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-25T14:36:06Z jmercouris: and then within any other packages I want to invoke that code, I'll do something like (backend:quit) 2017-10-25T14:36:20Z beach: That's what I recommend. 2017-10-25T14:36:33Z jmercouris: Okay, now what about the other situation, in which the backend code needs to call the other code 2017-10-25T14:36:36Z beach: But if you don't want to type the prefix, you can do (:USE :BACKEND) 2017-10-25T14:36:46Z jmercouris: for example, on key press events, I need to call the core code 2017-10-25T14:36:48Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T14:37:06Z jmercouris: should I export the items from my core to make them visible to the backend? 2017-10-25T14:37:29Z jmercouris: like let's say I have (core:process-keypress), does that merit that? 2017-10-25T14:37:35Z beach: Yes, a package is a unit of abstraction, so you export the symbols that are part of the interface of that abstraction. 2017-10-25T14:37:51Z pjb: That said, using the same package for all backends, while quite easy, is a severe case of Singleton pattern. It's probably to be avoided. Reifying the backend into a CLOS object let you specify attributes and provides a more definite interface. 2017-10-25T14:37:56Z jmercouris: Tangibly though, what are the benefits of packages other than avoiding namespace collisions? 2017-10-25T14:38:04Z pjb: It's more work, but a better solution. 2017-10-25T14:38:17Z beach: jmercouris: They are units of abstraction. 2017-10-25T14:38:40Z pjb: jmercouris: the question is whether you can resolve the names at compilation time (read time actually), or if more indirection is needed or wanted. 2017-10-25T14:38:42Z jmercouris: Right, so like any other language got it 2017-10-25T14:38:47Z beach: The functionality defined by the exported symbols of a package should form a unit that can be understood by itself. 2017-10-25T14:39:00Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:39:38Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm not sure I get it, if I took the backend and turned it into a CLOS object, is that not also a singleton? 2017-10-25T14:40:00Z jmercouris: beach: I'll try to keep this in mind, right now the interface is still evolving 2017-10-25T14:41:16Z beach: jmercouris: I am with pjb. I always think in terms of a possible LispOS, so that several backends are present in memory simultaneously. Then each one is represented by some object, and the processing function become generic functions that dispatch on that object. Each file would then contain methods on those generic function with one particular backend being specialized on. 2017-10-25T14:42:09Z jmercouris: Alright, I finally understand what you mean, there would be a superclass called "interface" or something, and all backends would inherit from it 2017-10-25T14:42:15Z beach: jmercouris: For example, the Cleavir compiler framework takes a "system" or "client" parameter that my code specializes on, but that can also be overridden by client code. 2017-10-25T14:42:47Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, and the functions in each file should become methods that specialize on the subclasses. 2017-10-25T14:43:13Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T14:43:17Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:44:22Z beach: jmercouris: This organization also allow more factoring. Code that is the same in two or more backends, can be factored to specialize on a common superclass. 2017-10-25T14:44:45Z jmercouris: That is something I will have to think about, I think it could be a better way 2017-10-25T14:45:05Z jmercouris: Having said that, I don't think that these foreign systems could be run simultaneously 2017-10-25T14:45:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:45:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:46:05Z beach: Also, someone who wants to define a backend that is only marginally different from an existing one only has to redefine the methods that differ. 2017-10-25T14:46:24Z jmercouris: I guess both of the different backends could run on different threads 2017-10-25T14:46:40Z pjb: jmercouris: once you have a CLOS object, you can have multiple instances at the same time. For example, you can have a X11-backend (on my-screen.jmercouris.com:3.0) and two TTY-backend instances (on /dev/ttyp1 and /dev/ttyp4). 2017-10-25T14:46:40Z jmercouris: beach: Unfortunately there will be basically no code reuse beteween different backends as they are graphical libraries 2017-10-25T14:46:57Z beach: Since you haven't told us what those backends represent, it is hard to know. 2017-10-25T14:47:00Z pjb: jmercouris: even if 99.99999% of the time you only have one. 2017-10-25T14:47:10Z jmercouris: pjb: that could be a very very interesting way of interacting with the code 2017-10-25T14:47:18Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:47:18Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T14:47:18Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:47:26Z jmercouris: Thanks pjb, beach, a lot to think about here as I work on the second backend 2017-10-25T14:47:46Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T14:48:03Z beach: jmercouris: More generally, you should think about the ways in which CLOS allows you to improve the structure of your code. 2017-10-25T14:48:22Z jmercouris: beach: yeah, I need to take more advantage of CLOS for sure 2017-10-25T14:48:59Z jmercouris: I was thinking about interfaces before as well, (which is why we had that conversation about McClim), but I think CLOS is a cleaner way of doing this 2017-10-25T14:52:05Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T14:52:35Z goreye quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T14:55:33Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-25T14:56:32Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-25T14:57:33Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T15:01:51Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T15:05:36Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:10:58Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-25T15:11:01Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T15:11:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:13:08Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T15:13:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:18:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-25T15:19:42Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T15:19:46Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:19:46Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T15:19:46Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:20:31Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T15:22:02Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T15:23:35Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T15:24:10Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:24:49Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T15:26:30Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:26:31Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-25T15:26:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:27:40Z rpg: Is there anything I could/should be doing to reset SLIME over time, so it doesn't misplace it's warning tool tips? These seem to start wandering around my buffers, away from their original target, over time. 2017-10-25T15:27:40Z minion: rpg, memo from phoe: done. 2017-10-25T15:28:31Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-25T15:28:38Z rpg: phoe_: Sorry: I have completely forgotten what that was about. I've been traveling and off IRC for weeks now. 2017-10-25T15:28:49Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:30:18Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:31:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:32:36Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:33:10Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:35:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:36:14Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T15:36:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-25T15:37:30Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:37:45Z beach: Whoa, ELS 2018 has been announced! 2017-10-25T15:40:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:40:18Z shka: where this time? 2017-10-25T15:41:04Z beach: Marbella. 2017-10-25T15:41:09Z beach: Should be fantastic. 2017-10-25T15:41:21Z beach: Good food, good weather. 2017-10-25T15:41:40Z Shinmera: I'd like to write another paper for ELS, but I don't know if I'll have time this time. 2017-10-25T15:41:41Z Josh_2: Sounds like it'll be a mini vacation for those who attend 2017-10-25T15:41:58Z jmercouris: What's the cost to attend? 2017-10-25T15:42:00Z Xach: It is good to meet with friends who work on lisp stuff 2017-10-25T15:42:02Z jmercouris: All in? 2017-10-25T15:42:09Z beach: I always try to take a few days off around it. 2017-10-25T15:42:14Z Shinmera: jmercouris: To be announced. 2017-10-25T15:42:49Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Right yeah, but generally, what does it cost? 2017-10-25T15:42:51Z beach: jmercouris: The cost will be dwarfed by travel and room. 2017-10-25T15:43:02Z Josh_2: Airbnb for cheap 2017-10-25T15:43:16Z jmercouris: Yeah, stuff like QT conference was 1500 for admission only, that's why I'm asking 2017-10-25T15:43:18Z Shinmera: Previous years were 50.- for students and 100.- for regulars, I believe. 2017-10-25T15:43:23Z jmercouris: if the primary cost is travel and room, then no problem 2017-10-25T15:43:29Z Shinmera: or 150.- for regulars 2017-10-25T15:43:32Z Josh_2: That's not a lot of moneys 2017-10-25T15:43:33Z Shinmera: Can't quite recall. 2017-10-25T15:43:57Z Shinmera: Last year cost more due to the co-location, despite the co-location making everything worse than other years. 2017-10-25T15:44:01Z beach: jmercouris: 150€ regular, early bird. 2017-10-25T15:44:14Z jmercouris: seems very reasonable to me, hopefully I can make it 2017-10-25T15:44:46Z beach: jmercouris: 120€ the years before last. 2017-10-25T15:44:54Z Shinmera: Should probably work on some of these too, sigh. https://github.com/european-lisp-symposium/els-web/issues 2017-10-25T15:45:51Z beach: Josh_2: It was decided from the beginning to try to keep it inexpensive. And students are subsidized by the regulars. 2017-10-25T15:47:08Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:48:36Z Josh_2: That's a good idea 2017-10-25T15:50:45Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:52:08Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:52:08Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T15:52:08Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:53:53Z beach: Yes, and the attendance confirms it. Lately, there has been close to 100 participants. 2017-10-25T15:54:42Z jbf[m] joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:56:35Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T15:56:41Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T15:56:43Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T15:57:33Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-25T15:59:41Z larsen: I'd like to consider attending ELS 2018, but I'm not sure I would fit. Is it a grassroot conference in spirit (like YAPCs, if you know them) or more formal/academic ? 2017-10-25T16:00:36Z Xach: larsen: I found it to be a bit academic the last time I went, but it didn't matter much due to the value of the discussion and face-time with people I would otherwise never see 2017-10-25T16:01:17Z Shinmera: larsen: There's both kinds of papers being presented. Academic things and demonstrations. 2017-10-25T16:01:36Z Xach: the ECLM was more to my taste, but i enjoyed ELS very much 2017-10-25T16:01:38Z Shinmera: The actual talks can be hit and miss, like with any conference, but getting time to talk to the other people in the breaks is usually what it's all about. 2017-10-25T16:01:48Z Xach: long live eclm 2017-10-25T16:02:20Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:03:25Z larsen: thank you. I'm not against the academic slant, of course, just afraid that *everything* is above my head. good thing you mentioned the "hallway track" (which is a thing I appreciate a lot in YAPCs) 2017-10-25T16:04:18Z beach: larsen: Xach and Shinmera are right. It is more about meeting the people and talking to them. You can be selective with the talks. 2017-10-25T16:05:06Z jbf[m] left #lisp 2017-10-25T16:08:24Z Kyo91 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:08:32Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:14:30Z phoe_: rpg: no problem. 2017-10-25T16:14:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:15:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T16:18:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:18:20Z rtmpdavid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T16:20:35Z ck_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:21:30Z ck_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:22:32Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:22:32Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T16:22:32Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:24:34Z rpg: phoe_: do you remember what it's about? 2017-10-25T16:25:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:26:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:27:05Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:27:49Z k-os joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:29:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T16:33:57Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:34:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T16:35:05Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:36:12Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:39:49Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:42:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:43:35Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:43:35Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T16:43:35Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:48:33Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:51:45Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:52:01Z phoe_: rpg: yes, obituary for Elias. I put it there and it lasted for a few days. 2017-10-25T16:52:16Z rpg: phoe_: Oh. Thank you very much 2017-10-25T16:52:28Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:53:02Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T16:53:12Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-25T16:54:39Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:55:47Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:55:47Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T16:55:47Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T16:59:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:00:02Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:00:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:00:58Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:01:09Z lerax joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:02:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:03:21Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:04:18Z phoe_: rpg: no problem. 2017-10-25T17:04:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:08:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:11:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:12:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:14:19Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:16:06Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:16:06Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-10-25T17:16:06Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:19:21Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T17:20:02Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:23:01Z SaganMan: is there a way to check nil in cond? 2017-10-25T17:23:21Z SaganMan: I mean like (= x 'nil) ? 2017-10-25T17:23:32Z SaganMan: does that work? 2017-10-25T17:23:50Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:24:05Z Bike: (not x) or (null x) depending on whether you mean it as a boolean or as a list. 2017-10-25T17:24:21Z Bike: or (eq x nil) 2017-10-25T17:25:22Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:26:26Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:26:36Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:27:00Z SaganMan: alright 2017-10-25T17:27:21Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:28:32Z nick123 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:29:05Z Kyo91 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:30:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T17:31:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:32:42Z bgardner joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:33:55Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:35:22Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:36:46Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T17:36:52Z basket: Bike: Or (endp x) 2017-10-25T17:38:06Z Bike: in an iteration context, i guess 2017-10-25T17:41:08Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T17:41:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T17:42:27Z SaganMan: I can't use endp, I'm doing this lisp assignments of some uni which told what to use. 2017-10-25T17:42:55Z Bike: those assignments suck, my condolences 2017-10-25T17:42:58Z SaganMan: it's pure functional programming 2017-10-25T17:43:23Z Bike: endp is funtional 2017-10-25T17:43:35Z SaganMan: atleast I'm getting rid of my C style programming. 2017-10-25T17:44:29Z SaganMan: they said that you can only use fanctions, macros in first four chapters of winston and horn book 2017-10-25T17:44:36Z SaganMan: it's a good book btw 2017-10-25T17:45:00Z SaganMan: even though the functions might be a bit outdated 2017-10-25T17:45:11Z Xach: Winston & Horn 3rd edition is decent. 2017-10-25T17:45:26Z Xach: Older editions not as decent 2017-10-25T17:45:29Z SaganMan: I wonder what edition I have 2017-10-25T17:45:59Z Xach: SaganMan: is the cover glossy, brown, and white? 2017-10-25T17:46:38Z Xach: with the words "3rd edition" under the title...another giveaway 2017-10-25T17:46:56Z vsync: maybe the /topic should have dates and cities of upcoming conferences, along with implementation versions 2017-10-25T17:47:23Z Xach: vsync: it is only ELS these days 2017-10-25T17:47:28Z SaganMan: Xach: nah, it doesn't have :/ 2017-10-25T17:47:36Z Xach: SaganMan: not a good sign!! 2017-10-25T17:47:54Z SaganMan: Xach: I wonder If I can download the third edition 2017-10-25T17:48:20Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:48:21Z Xach: SaganMan: I don't think so. Practical Common Lisp is better and can be downloaded. 2017-10-25T17:48:50Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:49:16Z vsync: huh, is there an ILC coming up? 2017-10-25T17:49:28Z Xach: No ILC coming up 2017-10-25T17:49:32Z vsync: Xach: oh wow :( 2017-10-25T17:49:37Z SaganMan: the peter siebel one? I don't like his style of teaching 2017-10-25T17:50:06Z Xach: SaganMan: that's the one 2017-10-25T17:50:07Z vsync does not say there should be one, lest he get volunteered..... but, there could be one and it would be nice 2017-10-25T17:50:20Z vsync: but, an excuse to go to spain maybe, hmm 2017-10-25T17:50:33Z Xach: SaganMan: well, winston & horn 3rd edition is on ebay for various prices. sometimes it comes up for under US$20. 2017-10-25T17:51:24Z Xach: many lisp books are very expensive on used book sites but occasionally cheap on ebay 2017-10-25T17:54:43Z jasom: Rummage sales in university towns are good too... retiring professors selling off old books. 2017-10-25T17:54:46Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-25T17:55:40Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T17:57:02Z SaganMan: damn, they're very expensive 2017-10-25T17:57:25Z SaganMan: there are used books for 5$ but shipping cost of 25$ 2017-10-25T17:57:54Z SaganMan quit (Quit: later) 2017-10-25T17:58:44Z Xach: one 4'x8' sheet of 2" insulation board is $33 2017-10-25T17:58:59Z Xach: i need many for my ice shack! a lisp book is a great value 2017-10-25T17:59:16Z Xach: not a great insulation value, but good for the lisp skills. 2017-10-25T18:00:14Z takitus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T18:05:02Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:05:54Z wigust quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T18:08:08Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:08:19Z stnutt left #lisp 2017-10-25T18:12:58Z kuwze quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-25T18:15:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:17:16Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-25T18:18:38Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T18:18:54Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:20:34Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T18:23:11Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:26:10Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T18:27:05Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T18:28:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:29:49Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:30:06Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:30:46Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:34:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:35:41Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:36:49Z rpg: Xach: ice shack? Do you go icefishing? 2017-10-25T18:37:36Z Xach: rpg: yep. 2017-10-25T18:37:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T18:38:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:38:57Z _death: pilkki 2017-10-25T18:42:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T18:44:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T18:45:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-25T18:45:25Z rpg: It's, of course, a big thing out here (MN), too. Someday I'll be old enough to be in Grumpy Old Men, the remake 2017-10-25T18:50:30Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T18:56:06Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-25T18:57:00Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:01:01Z emaczen`: is there an end of stream character? 2017-10-25T19:01:36Z shka_: emaczen`: you can specify what is supposed to be returned on EOF 2017-10-25T19:01:48Z shka_: can be nil, for instance 2017-10-25T19:02:28Z aeth: I usually use :eof 2017-10-25T19:02:31Z emaczen`: I'm calling read-sequence and it doesn't stop 2017-10-25T19:02:41Z emaczen`: lisp won't get to the next form 2017-10-25T19:04:02Z shka_: interesting, to say the least 2017-10-25T19:04:10Z shka_: care to show your code? 2017-10-25T19:04:23Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T19:04:35Z lerax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T19:04:35Z shka_: also, good night everyone 2017-10-25T19:04:44Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:05:01Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T19:05:16Z emaczen`: even if I use a loop instead of read-sequence it doesn't get to the next form after the loop 2017-10-25T19:05:30Z shka_: i get that 2017-10-25T19:05:52Z emaczen`: I'm in control of the stream 2017-10-25T19:06:18Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:06:29Z emaczen`: however, I want to keep reading from the stream 2017-10-25T19:06:39Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T19:07:00Z emaczen`: After X bytes are read from the stream, then X bytes are written to the stream from the server 2017-10-25T19:07:35Z shka_: … no code? 2017-10-25T19:07:50Z shka_: also, what the heck are you using? 2017-10-25T19:07:54Z emaczen`: CCL 2017-10-25T19:08:02Z shka_: usocket? 2017-10-25T19:08:13Z emaczen`: ccl:make-socket 2017-10-25T19:08:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:08:20Z shka_: aaah, can't help 2017-10-25T19:08:32Z shka_: i don't use CCL nearly as often as i should 2017-10-25T19:09:29Z emaczen`: well my CCL client does work with an ABCL java server I setup 2017-10-25T19:09:44Z shka_: so lisp on both sites! 2017-10-25T19:10:00Z shka_: cool, but still, i need to go 2017-10-25T19:10:01Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T19:10:04Z emaczen`: I'm trying to replace the ABCL server with CCL 2017-10-25T19:10:15Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:10:49Z basket: emaczen`: So the problem isn't with your READ-SEQUENCE call then? 2017-10-25T19:12:25Z emaczen`: basket: Yeah, if it works with a java server that would make sense. 2017-10-25T19:12:36Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:13:00Z emaczen`: I thought I might be able to hack on the client to get it to work though 2017-10-25T19:13:04Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T19:13:04Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T19:13:16Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:14:21Z emaczen`: on my CCL server, I just loop over the number of bytes I have and do (format connection "~A" (ccl:paref ...)) 2017-10-25T19:14:22Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T19:14:24Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:14:58Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-25T19:15:14Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T19:15:47Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:16:05Z Josh_2: Anyone seen this https://assets.toggl.com/images/toggl-how-to-save-the-princess-in-8-programming-languages.jpg my friend showed me today 2017-10-25T19:16:44Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T19:17:27Z Josh_2: It's quite amusing, at least we get the princess hahahaha 2017-10-25T19:19:11Z shka_: and we still have our horse! 2017-10-25T19:19:18Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:19:27Z Josh_2: Exactly! 2017-10-25T19:19:51Z shka_: and it looks like princess started to like lisp 2017-10-25T19:20:55Z shka_: i call it 100% success 2017-10-25T19:22:03Z shka_: also, it looks like princess integrates well into our layered architecture 2017-10-25T19:22:21Z emaczen`: how do you write integers as bytes? 2017-10-25T19:22:23Z emaczen`: to a stream 2017-10-25T19:22:32Z Josh_2: (write-byte ..)? 2017-10-25T19:22:39Z emaczen`: I've tried (write-byte int stream) 2017-10-25T19:22:57Z shka_: yes, you can try to use write byte, but why even bother? 2017-10-25T19:23:09Z Bike: write-byte writes one byte. 2017-10-25T19:23:16Z Josh_2: use format? 2017-10-25T19:23:21Z shka_: perhaps you can use this awesome serialization library 2017-10-25T19:23:46Z shka_: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/ 2017-10-25T19:23:48Z emaczen`: shka_: Why when it should ammount to something simple? 2017-10-25T19:24:11Z shka_: well, this depends on what you are doing 2017-10-25T19:24:27Z shka_: i rarely have to send single integer 2017-10-25T19:24:38Z shka_: but objects, vectors, lists? 2017-10-25T19:24:41Z shka_: sure, that is usefull 2017-10-25T19:25:07Z shka_: so i tend to gravitate over to cl-store 2017-10-25T19:25:19Z emaczen`: I'm sending 3 integers and then a sequence of bytes 2017-10-25T19:25:54Z shka_: oh well, in that case you can use ldb to extract parts of integers byte by byte 2017-10-25T19:27:00Z shka_: not sure if this is the optimal way to do it, but that's what i would do 2017-10-25T19:27:36Z mfiano: emaczen`: fast-io for buffered reads/writes. cl-conspack (which uses fast-io) for a superior serialization library 2017-10-25T19:27:39Z shka_: well, i would probably use cl-store because i am lazy bastard 2017-10-25T19:28:14Z shka_: what is so superior about cl-conspack? 2017-10-25T19:29:18Z mfiano: backrefs for starters 2017-10-25T19:29:56Z mfiano: but moreso speed, due to fast-io 2017-10-25T19:30:10Z shka_: right 2017-10-25T19:30:23Z shka_: i guess that can come in handy 2017-10-25T19:30:36Z mfiano: I've had some nasty bugs with cl-store in the past, but that was like 10 years ago. 2017-10-25T19:30:43Z mfiano: I can't say how great it is these days 2017-10-25T19:31:26Z shka_: well, i never had problems with it and it can handle everything i throw at it 2017-10-25T19:31:32Z shka_: so i naturally like it 2017-10-25T19:31:42Z shka_: because i am lazy bastard as already established 2017-10-25T19:33:28Z mfiano: wonder if any of these can serialize closures 2017-10-25T19:33:51Z shka_: not cl-store 2017-10-25T19:34:04Z shka_: this honestly sounds rather complicated to do 2017-10-25T19:34:16Z mfiano: indeed 2017-10-25T19:35:25Z shka_: grrr 2017-10-25T19:35:36Z shka_: ok, seriously guys, good night! 2017-10-25T19:35:38Z mfiano: anyway conspack allows storing circular sequences etc and a lot of cool features like indexing for reduced size 2017-10-25T19:35:53Z mfiano: worth a try for almost any use-case :) 2017-10-25T19:35:54Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:36:06Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:37:31Z itruslove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T19:37:31Z Guest30004 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T19:40:33Z Shinmera: My only experience with conspack has been that I tried to make it work for Plump and couldn't for whatever reason. Just kept on blowing up in my face about the back references I had in the DOM. 2017-10-25T19:41:32Z Shinmera: So I just wrote my own binary format and never really ended up using that either. 2017-10-25T19:41:36Z Shinmera: :shrug: 2017-10-25T19:41:36Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾ 2017-10-25T19:41:41Z emaczen`: I don't really understand #'byte 2017-10-25T19:41:57Z emaczen`: will someone clarify it for me? 2017-10-25T19:42:40Z mfiano: Shinmera: spoken like a true lisper :) 2017-10-25T19:43:15Z rpg: Does anyone know about the status of the 'FOO-PACKAGE::(...bar...) syntax? It seems to work happily in all the lisps I have available, but not in Clozure CL. Is that an experience anyone else has had? 2017-10-25T19:43:48Z Bike: it's nonstandard. if you asked the ccl people they might implement it. 2017-10-25T19:43:50Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:44:14Z k-os quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T19:44:52Z rpg: Bike: thanks. OK, I can probably make it go away for greater portability. I didn't realize it wasn't standard, because it works on SBCL and ACL, which I use most often. 2017-10-25T19:45:28Z Bike: sbcl implemented it like... last year? two years ago? 2017-10-25T19:45:56Z Bike: from 1.0.55 2017-10-25T19:47:32Z phoe_: clhs byte 2017-10-25T19:47:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_by_by.htm 2017-10-25T19:47:52Z phoe_: emaczen`: BYTE returns something that can be then used in LDB and DPB. 2017-10-25T19:48:25Z phoe_: it makes no meaning on its own. 2017-10-25T19:48:38Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T19:48:47Z nick123 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T19:49:21Z Shinmera: I never quite understood the rationale for having the BYTE thingy instead of just having another argument more on ldb/dpb 2017-10-25T19:50:19Z emaczen`: can someone provide some examples? I think the docs say it is for legacy 2017-10-25T19:50:22Z Bike: so you can hypothetically pass byte specifiers around, i guess. 2017-10-25T19:50:40Z Shinmera: Bike: You could also just pass two numbers around, or a cons if you want. 2017-10-25T19:51:02Z emaczen`: (ldb (byte 1 2) 8) -- what does that mean? 2017-10-25T19:51:13Z emaczen`: I don't know what it means by size or position 2017-10-25T19:51:58Z emaczen`: why isn't byte just a 1 parameter function? 2017-10-25T19:52:21Z Bike: the position within the word, and the size of the byte in bits 2017-10-25T19:52:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:52:29Z bgardner quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-25T19:52:44Z emaczen`: isnt every byte 8 bits? 2017-10-25T19:52:47Z Bike: no 2017-10-25T19:52:56Z Bike: lisp predates that convention 2017-10-25T19:52:58Z emaczen`: I thought the definition of a byte was 8 bits 2017-10-25T19:53:08Z Bike: not in this context 2017-10-25T19:53:12Z emaczen`: wow that is pretty interesting 2017-10-25T19:53:22Z emaczen`: So what could "byte" have meant before then? 2017-10-25T19:53:31Z bgardner joined #lisp 2017-10-25T19:53:40Z Bike: buncha bits 2017-10-25T19:55:34Z mfiano: an octet is 8 bits. a byte is the smallest amount of addressable memory for an architecture, which is usually 8 bits. 2017-10-25T19:55:47Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T19:57:43Z emaczen`: Okay so the integer 4 is all 0 for the first 3 bytes and the last byte is 00000100 as bits 2017-10-25T19:58:05Z emaczen`: So why does (ldb (byte 8 1) 4) evaluate to 2? 2017-10-25T19:58:35Z emaczen`: I am taking 1 here to mean the second byte 2017-10-25T19:58:38Z emaczen`: which would be zero 2017-10-25T19:58:45Z mfiano: 10 is 2 2017-10-25T19:58:53Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-25T19:59:27Z emaczen`: i know that 10 is 2 in binary what does that have to do with (ldb (byte 8 1) 4) ? 2017-10-25T19:59:36Z mfiano: the 1 means the second position from LSB, which is 0. 8 means 8 bits in size to the left from that point, which equals 00000010 2017-10-25T20:01:50Z nick123 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:03:33Z emaczen`: (ldb (byte 8 2) 4) -- I'm taking the 2 to mean the third position, which is 0. 8 means 8 bits in size to the left which is 00000100 = 4 2017-10-25T20:03:44Z emaczen`: but (ldb (byte 8 2) 4) = 1 2017-10-25T20:03:50Z emaczen`: err evaluates to 1 2017-10-25T20:05:08Z mfiano: no the third position is 1 2017-10-25T20:05:17Z mfiano: 4 is 100 2017-10-25T20:05:25Z mfiano: and all preceding positions are 0 2017-10-25T20:05:36Z mfiano: so loading bits from that position onward will always be 1 2017-10-25T20:06:46Z emaczen`: LSB is least significant byte which is the byte furthest to the right 2017-10-25T20:06:57Z Shinmera: (ldb (byte a b) c) <=> (ldb (byte a 0) (ash c (- b))) 2017-10-25T20:06:57Z mfiano: Correct 2017-10-25T20:07:04Z emaczen`: which would be 00000100 in bits 2017-10-25T20:07:48Z mfiano: Yes. a bytespec of 8,2 means, starting at the third position from the right, which is 1, read 8 more bits. 2017-10-25T20:07:57Z mfiano: 00000001 2017-10-25T20:08:23Z emaczen`: Okay, I think I understand better now. I'll make up another example 2017-10-25T20:08:32Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-25T20:08:43Z bgardner left #lisp 2017-10-25T20:09:36Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T20:09:48Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T20:09:50Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:10:51Z mfiano: emaczen`: LSB/MSB can mean either most/least significant _bit_ or _byte_. there is a notion of bit and byte endianess, so be careful how you word that next time. 2017-10-25T20:10:53Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:11:48Z SomeoneCool joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:12:57Z marcux joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:13:32Z emaczen`: Okay, so the position paramter is always the number of bits from the right? 2017-10-25T20:15:12Z SomeoneCool: Hi to all! Can anyone give my an advice, how to get better syntax highlighting while usesing emacs + slime? Looks like this two can not recognize and hightlight my fucntions :( 2017-10-25T20:15:28Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T20:15:48Z Shinmera: Define "better"? 2017-10-25T20:16:31Z Shinmera: If you don't get any highlighting at all, make sure your buffer is in common-lisp-mode. 2017-10-25T20:18:01Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-10-25T20:18:53Z SomeoneCool: I have some highlighting but not enought for me :) It does not know that char= is a function, for example. But some keywords like defun is hightlighted 2017-10-25T20:19:21Z Shinmera: It's a function because it's at the first position in a list. 2017-10-25T20:19:41Z Shinmera: defun is highlighted because it's a special kind of macro that is known. 2017-10-25T20:19:46Z emaczen`: is (ldb (byte x y) i) considered strange? 2017-10-25T20:20:02Z Bike: no, it's like the most common way to use ldb 2017-10-25T20:20:39Z emaczen`: I would have never figured that out with the docs... 2017-10-25T20:21:06Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T20:21:24Z emaczen`: why wouldn't we just use bit strings though? 2017-10-25T20:21:31Z SomeoneCool: also slime does not highlight my functions after definition. When I use them it display like simple text 2017-10-25T20:21:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:21:48Z Shinmera: No function is higlighted. 2017-10-25T20:22:21Z SomeoneCool: :( 2017-10-25T20:22:36Z Shinmera: Only macros are highlighted, because those are important as they influence semantics. 2017-10-25T20:22:47Z Shinmera: Detecting functions is usually trivial, as you can just look for ( 2017-10-25T20:22:58Z Shinmera: So I never felt the need for more highlighting than there is. 2017-10-25T20:23:06Z peterhil joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:23:07Z emaczen`: SomeoneCool: just about everything would be highlighted 2017-10-25T20:24:50Z SomeoneCool: got it. thanks for answers 2017-10-25T20:29:30Z lnostdal quit (Quit: lnostdal) 2017-10-25T20:33:52Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T20:36:19Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:39:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:45:49Z fouric quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T20:51:56Z fouric joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:54:07Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-10-25T20:58:02Z emaczen`: What about writing bit-vectors to a stream istead of bytes? 2017-10-25T20:59:25Z mfiano: What about it? 2017-10-25T20:59:25Z shpx joined #lisp 2017-10-25T20:59:48Z emaczen`: I really don't like (ldb (byte ..)..) I think it is very cryptic 2017-10-25T21:00:17Z emaczen`: I would rather write individual bits and convert integers to simple-bit-vectors 2017-10-25T21:00:30Z mfiano: Well that's the standard way to load bytes. It can also be setf'd. Then there's depositing bytes with DPB, extracting, masking, etc. 2017-10-25T21:00:41Z mfiano: I would recommend checking out the library, bitio. 2017-10-25T21:00:49Z mfiano: It's a new library as of this most recent Quicklisp dist. 2017-10-25T21:00:53Z mfiano: A friend and I wrote 2017-10-25T21:01:35Z mfiano: If you're noty writing octet aligned bytes to a stream, perfromance is going to be slow. 2017-10-25T21:03:40Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-25T21:08:01Z emaczen`: is there a format specifier for bytes? 2017-10-25T21:11:56Z mfiano: That depends how you want to represent bytes. Implementations are also free of this choice. 2017-10-25T21:12:09Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-25T21:12:30Z mfiano: err can make this choice 2017-10-25T21:13:03Z Shinmera: There's ~x and ~b at least. 2017-10-25T21:14:04Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:15:56Z emaczen`: what is ~b? 2017-10-25T21:16:05Z emaczen`: I know ~x is hex 2017-10-25T21:16:15Z marcux quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T21:16:21Z mfiano: emaczen`: (format nil "~b" #(#x3a #xf1 #x82)) => "#(111010 11110001 10000010)" 2017-10-25T21:16:21Z emaczen`: Oh I see. Binary 2017-10-25T21:16:39Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:16:49Z emaczen`: What is the easiest way to write bytes to a stream just using standard commonlisp? 2017-10-25T21:17:04Z mfiano: write-sequence 2017-10-25T21:17:51Z emaczen`: so (write-sequence '(1 2 3) stream) would write 1, 2 and 3 as bytes? 2017-10-25T21:20:35Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T21:20:43Z emaczen`: I should just ask my full question 2017-10-25T21:21:22Z mfiano: sure, assuming 1 2 and 3 are of the correct element-type for bytes of the stream 2017-10-25T21:21:28Z emaczen`: I want to write, a length, width, and height, and then from a sequence of bytes from a C array all to a stream 2017-10-25T21:21:57Z emaczen`: (type-of 1) => integer 2017-10-25T21:22:04Z emaczen`: err bit 2017-10-25T21:22:12Z mfiano: type-of is implementation-dependent in what it returns 2017-10-25T21:22:34Z emaczen`: how do you ensure the correct element-type? 2017-10-25T21:22:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:23:00Z mfiano: know what you are writing and what type of stream it is? 2017-10-25T21:23:39Z emaczen`: It is a character/byte stream 2017-10-25T21:23:50Z mfiano: 'byte' can mean many things 2017-10-25T21:23:59Z emaczen`: 8 bit byte stream 2017-10-25T21:24:04Z mfiano: unsigned or signed? 2017-10-25T21:24:46Z emaczen`: whatever type of stream ccl:accept-connection returns 2017-10-25T21:25:03Z mfiano: Looks like you have a bit of research to do 2017-10-25T21:25:35Z emaczen`: ughh your right, I thought these streams were very basic 2017-10-25T21:25:37Z emaczen`: ... 2017-10-25T21:27:02Z Bike: the manual says accept-connection inherits properties of the socket you give it, os there's that 2017-10-25T21:27:30Z Bike: however... 2017-10-25T21:27:33Z Bike: clhs stream-element-type 2017-10-25T21:27:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stm_el.htm 2017-10-25T21:28:51Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-25T21:31:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-25T21:35:02Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:35:31Z Xach: encoding 2017-10-25T21:36:26Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T21:36:32Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:37:03Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T21:37:07Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:37:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-25T21:39:46Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T21:39:52Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:40:24Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:40:25Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T21:43:35Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T21:44:14Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:44:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:46:06Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T21:48:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-25T21:48:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T21:50:48Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-25T21:52:03Z fe[nl]ix: Bike: can you please add a licence file to compiler-macro ? 2017-10-25T21:52:18Z Bike: sure 2017-10-25T21:55:34Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:57:01Z lambdice quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-25T21:58:29Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T21:58:43Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-25T21:59:22Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:00:20Z Bike: fe[nl]ix: how's that? 2017-10-25T22:01:02Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:02:14Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T22:03:53Z fe[nl]ix: Bike: see https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/CC0_FAQ#May_I_apply_CC0_to_computer_software.3F_If_so.2C_is_there_a_recommended_implementation.3F 2017-10-25T22:04:21Z Bike: yeah, that's what i did. 2017-10-25T22:05:07Z Bike: or do you want me to put a name in every file and so on 2017-10-25T22:05:51Z fe[nl]ix: I don't think that will be necessary 2017-10-25T22:05:53Z fe[nl]ix: thank you 2017-10-25T22:05:55Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-25T22:06:02Z Bike: no problem 2017-10-25T22:06:07Z Bike: are you using it? i haven't touched it in a while 2017-10-25T22:06:29Z fe[nl]ix: I'm thinking of using it 2017-10-25T22:06:41Z fe[nl]ix: I'm curious, it seems pretty complex 2017-10-25T22:06:58Z fe[nl]ix: have you found every functionality necessary ? 2017-10-25T22:08:11Z Bike: what happened is that i found the basic approach inadequate. it can't fully leverage type inference and other information because that just doesn't exist at source level, and there aren't any portable hooks into intermediate representations 2017-10-25T22:09:05Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:09:20Z Bike: which doesn't directly answer your question. but working on a compiler like i do now, i do think having a bunch of different optimizations you can try is important 2017-10-25T22:09:30Z Bike: the whole thing is based on what sbcl does internally, after all 2017-10-25T22:09:49Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:11:27Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:14:45Z fe[nl]ix: two more things: you should reformat the code to replace tabs with spaces 2017-10-25T22:15:10Z fe[nl]ix: and wrap the docstrings to something shorter 2017-10-25T22:15:15Z fe[nl]ix: like 80 lines 2017-10-25T22:15:25Z Bike: yeah, i just noticed that 2017-10-25T22:15:43Z fe[nl]ix: and some comments are very long as well 2017-10-25T22:17:36Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:18:14Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-25T22:18:50Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:20:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:25:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:28:06Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:29:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:30:11Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2017-10-25T22:32:11Z flavio81 left #lisp 2017-10-25T22:32:27Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-25T22:32:27Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:34:47Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:35:23Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T22:36:43Z jmercouris: Hey everyone, I'm having a weird issue with my quicklisp loading of a system I've defined, it worked when I started lisp last, but doesn't work this time: https://gist.github.com/15a2777be6681df08f2d5a345314764d 2017-10-25T22:37:14Z jmercouris: I get: System "next" not found [Condition of type QUICKLISP-CLIENT:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND] 2017-10-25T22:37:27Z jmercouris: but I've executed (asdf:load-system "next"), so it should be there 2017-10-25T22:37:58Z Bike: the error is in the course of quickloading 2017-10-25T22:38:17Z Bike: it can't find your system so it can't load it 2017-10-25T22:38:20Z Xach: jmercouris: (ql:quickload ) necessarily involves a call to (asdf:load-system ) 2017-10-25T22:38:44Z jmercouris: Xach: I should therefore remove the load system right? 2017-10-25T22:39:18Z jmercouris: Bike: I've pushed the system the line before though, can the slime repl maybe have the wrong directory? within the "push" function? 2017-10-25T22:39:50Z Bike: maybe. you could try it with an absolute path. 2017-10-25T22:40:06Z Bike: i've never been quite sure what the "current directory" is to lisp. default pathname defaults, i guess 2017-10-25T22:41:11Z rpg: agree with Bike -- you should always avoid using relative paths in your asdf configuration. CL does not have a notion of "current directory" -- the relationship between the OS notion of CWD and the CL notion of default-pathname-defaults is implementation-dependent and fraught with unpredictability 2017-10-25T22:41:55Z jmercouris: rpg: Different people will then have to configure the run script for their machines 2017-10-25T22:42:05Z Bike: if this is a script file, maybe you could get the directory from *load-pathname* 2017-10-25T22:42:09Z rpg: Between LOAD-TRUENAME, COMPILE-FILENAME and ASDF:SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME, you should be able to avoid both relative pathnames and special configurations. 2017-10-25T22:42:12Z emaczen`: Bike: I'm looking at the CCL doc, and it says that sock-streams always are bivalent 2017-10-25T22:42:14Z Bike: i don't do that kind of thing very much, so i'm rather ignorant. 2017-10-25T22:42:40Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:42:42Z emaczen`: would that mkae my stream signed or unsigned? 2017-10-25T22:42:44Z rpg: Or you can stuff the next system inside your quicklisp/local-projects, and then I think you can quickload everything 2017-10-25T22:42:57Z Bike: emaczen`: bivalent means it can be read from or written to, it's unrelated to signedness. 2017-10-25T22:43:02Z Bike: emaczen`: did you try stream-element-type? 2017-10-25T22:44:14Z emaczen`: Bike: It just told me that it is not a stream 2017-10-25T22:44:21Z emaczen`: the type is a ccl::listener-socket 2017-10-25T22:44:33Z Bike: oh. 2017-10-25T22:46:31Z rpg: jmercouris: You can also have the script load an ASDF configuration form, that is relative (uses :HERE) 2017-10-25T22:46:33Z jmercouris: Bike: hmm, changing to an absolute path fixed it, now time to do some of the magic with those paths 2017-10-25T22:46:42Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:46:50Z rpg: jmercouris: Have a look at the ASDF manual for how to do this. 2017-10-25T22:46:51Z jmercouris: rpg: What is an ASDF configuration form? 2017-10-25T22:46:53Z jmercouris: Ok 2017-10-25T22:47:21Z rpg can't look up the manual right now--frantically trying to finish a paper by the deadline this evening... 2017-10-25T22:48:58Z jmercouris: rpg: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#The-here-directive I found it 2017-10-25T22:49:09Z jmercouris: while useful, I don't think I will pursue that avenue, I'll do things the Bike way 2017-10-25T22:49:32Z rpg: yup. That DSL description can be used together with (asdf:configure-source-repository ...) [might have the precise name wrong] 2017-10-25T22:50:13Z jmercouris: At any rate, thank you both for your help 2017-10-25T22:50:43Z emaczen`: wait so how do you specify the stream type for a CCL socket? 2017-10-25T22:52:38Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:53:10Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:54:07Z zaquest joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:54:09Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:55:07Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:55:44Z jmercouris: Bike: Do you know of a way to get the *load-pathname* without the merged filename at the end? 2017-10-25T22:56:08Z Bike: i'm not good with pathnames. 2017-10-25T22:58:09Z pjb: (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :version nil :default *load-pathname*) 2017-10-25T22:58:17Z pjb: (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :version nil :defaults *load-pathname*) 2017-10-25T22:58:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T22:58:54Z pjb: You may also prefer to use *load-truename* (or not, depends). 2017-10-25T22:59:13Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T22:59:56Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:00:05Z rpg: jmercouris: pathnames in CL are a nightmare -- there's no consistency in how different implementations deal with the notion of a pathname that points to a directory, because the spec doesn't have that notion (it was designed to cover also filesystems where directories weren't files...) 2017-10-25T23:00:21Z jmercouris: rpg: yeah, my code broke when changing implementations actually ... 2017-10-25T23:00:23Z rpg: I would avoid using pathnames if at all possible. 2017-10-25T23:00:27Z nick123 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T23:00:35Z rpg: Fare wrote a lot of utilities in UIOP that let you mostly avoid them. 2017-10-25T23:00:36Z jmercouris: pjb: what about this:(print (directory-namestring *load-pathname*)) 2017-10-25T23:00:54Z sebboh joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:00:57Z Josh_2: There is UIOP (I believe) however it's directory function doesn't work properly on ECL 2017-10-25T23:01:03Z pjb: jmercouris: very bad: you lose the host and the device! 2017-10-25T23:01:20Z nick123 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:01:23Z rpg: Josh_2: What's wrong with UIOP on ECL? 2017-10-25T23:01:47Z phoe_: Josh_2: are you sure? It's a bug in this case. 2017-10-25T23:01:51Z jmercouris: pjb: Host and device? 2017-10-25T23:01:54Z sebboh: hi all. What is a common way to get the fractional or decimal part of a number? For example, 12.8 ==> 0.8 ? 2017-10-25T23:02:16Z jmercouris: pjb: ah okay, like "drive" on windows 2017-10-25T23:02:19Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T23:02:26Z pjb: Of course, for pathnames designating POSIX files on a system lacking support for anything else, it may not make a difference, but 1- if your *load-pathname* is a logical pathname you're hosed, 2- if your implementation runs on java where they shoehorn urls into physical pathnames you're hosed. 2017-10-25T23:02:27Z Josh_2: Well all the code worked on SBCL, then when I tried ECL as I wanted a small binary it failed because the function directory wouldn't work with the directory pathnames it was being given.. 2017-10-25T23:02:29Z jmercouris: sebboh: modulus 2017-10-25T23:02:36Z pjb: and of course, ms-windows, of which I know little. 2017-10-25T23:02:40Z Josh_2: I had a discussion in this chat room about it when it happened 2017-10-25T23:02:48Z sebboh: I guess I only need it for positive numbers, but I'm curious about how to get -0.8 out of -12.8, too... 2017-10-25T23:02:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:03:10Z jmercouris: sebboh: Still, Modulus 2017-10-25T23:03:29Z sebboh: jmercouris: hm, maybe I only know bitwise modulous. I'll search about it. 2017-10-25T23:03:39Z sebboh: s/ou/u/ 2017-10-25T23:03:50Z jmercouris: sebboh: 7.3 % 1 will yield .3, etc 2017-10-25T23:04:01Z pjb: Mostly, people have problems with pathnames in CL, because they don't understand it, and try to take shortcuts like directory-namestring, just because they can't imagine a file system different from what they use everyday. 2017-10-25T23:04:20Z jmercouris: pjb: I actually literally cannot imagine how else to structure a file system than a unix tree 2017-10-25T23:04:24Z sebboh: ... jmercouris the remainder of division by 1. of course! Der, thanks! :) 2017-10-25T23:04:48Z sebboh: jmercouris: tags or labels come to mind. 2017-10-25T23:04:56Z Josh_2: I spent a lot of time on pathnames not long ago, so I have a better understanding than I did 2017-10-25T23:05:09Z Josh_2: They certainly are confusing at first 2017-10-25T23:05:34Z rpg: jmercouris: Yes, there was more diversity in operating systems when the ANSI CL spec was written. But it doesn't constrain implementations enough to make things consistent. TBH, you are better off mostly using Fare's code. 2017-10-25T23:05:44Z pjb: jmercouris: https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-addresses/ http://www.creativedeletion.com/2015/01/28/falsehoods-programmers-date-time-zones.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Antarctica http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ etc https://github.com/kdeldycke/awesome-falsehood 2017-10-25T23:06:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:06:43Z jmercouris: pjb: Great links, I've seen some of those, and I weep for people who have to implement datetime classes 2017-10-25T23:06:48Z pjb: The problem of course, is when programmers listen to users… 2017-10-25T23:06:58Z jmercouris: pjb: yeah, basically all edge cases are made by users 2017-10-25T23:06:59Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:07:20Z jmercouris: pjb: Users are a necessary evil :D 2017-10-25T23:07:41Z pjb: Users will tell you a French SS number starts with 1 or 2 indicating Male or Female. Wrong. French SSN can start with other digits indicating other Sex statuses (like unknown, temporary SS number, etc). 2017-10-25T23:07:53Z pjb: And the same for everything. 2017-10-25T23:08:26Z pjb: As programmers you have to generalize, taking into account all the "exceptions", which are just cases like the normal cases. 2017-10-25T23:08:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:08:54Z jmercouris: All we can do is comiserate 2017-10-25T23:08:59Z pjb: Notice that in Common Lisp, we don't "TRY" or handle exceptions. We HANDLE-CASES! 2017-10-25T23:09:29Z Josh_2: Now I thought we signalled conditions :P 2017-10-25T23:09:39Z pjb: and the :no-error case is just like the other case conditions. 2017-10-25T23:09:48Z QualityAddict quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:09:48Z pjb: Josh_2: yep. 2017-10-25T23:12:14Z pjb: (loop for (n d) in '((10 3) (1 0)) collect (handler-case (truncate n d) (:no-error (q r) (list :quotient q :remainder r)) (error (err) (princ err) '()))) #| division-by-zero detected, performing / on (1 0) --> ((:quotient 3 :remainder 1) nil) |# 2017-10-25T23:12:55Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:13:01Z giraffe is now known as Guest20101 2017-10-25T23:13:07Z pjb: Josh_2: notice that not all conditions are errors. There are non-error conditions. 2017-10-25T23:13:30Z pjb: Josh_2: this is used eg. by quicklisp to print the progress dots :-) 2017-10-25T23:14:11Z Josh_2: I knew not all conditions are errors, and that's a neat way to use that functionality 2017-10-25T23:14:42Z emaczen`: pjb: non-error conditions subclass condition instead of error right? 2017-10-25T23:14:52Z pjb: right. 2017-10-25T23:16:55Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:17:40Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:17:40Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T23:18:47Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:20:05Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:22:41Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:25:14Z shpx quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-25T23:27:27Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:28:41Z emaczen`: How do I write integers into a CCL socket and read the same integer on the other side? 2017-10-25T23:29:10Z epony quit (Quit: reinstalling OS) 2017-10-25T23:29:12Z emaczen`: I don't see anything in the CCL documentation where you specify the "stream-type" like you do with regular io 2017-10-25T23:29:26Z Josh_2: You write to the stream then read on the other side 2017-10-25T23:29:31Z nick123 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-25T23:29:42Z emaczen`: Josh_2: I'm not reading what I wrote is the problem... 2017-10-25T23:29:47Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:30:10Z emaczen`: I think writing and reading a few integers should be trivial... 2017-10-25T23:30:15Z Josh_2: Are you sure you sent it because I believe you have to use something like (terpri ) to make sure it is sent 2017-10-25T23:30:30Z theta2 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:30:37Z sebboh: (* 60 (mod foo 1)) happens to give something like 20.000038. It's a number of minutes, so "20" would be fine. I tried a format string like ~2D but still got 20.000038 ... then I tried ~2F and got "20." ... which I didn't expect. lil help? :) 2017-10-25T23:30:40Z emaczen`: Josh_2: I'm talking about ccl sockets 2017-10-25T23:30:55Z Josh_2: Allroghty 2017-10-25T23:31:10Z Josh_2: Should probably use Usocket 2017-10-25T23:31:27Z nick123 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:34:20Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-25T23:38:52Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-25T23:39:46Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-25T23:40:25Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:42:25Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:43:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:45:17Z emaczen`: nobody has a simple answer for writing integers to a CCL socket? 2017-10-25T23:45:27Z emaczen`: or through a CCL socket might be better wording 2017-10-25T23:48:00Z pjb: (prin1 integer socket) 2017-10-25T23:48:20Z pjb: (read socket) ; on the other side. 2017-10-25T23:48:33Z emaczen`: pjb: I'll give that a try 2017-10-25T23:48:50Z pjb: You may want to set *print-base* and *read-base* to the same value on both sides. 2017-10-25T23:48:52Z emaczen`: pjb: Well I want to print 3 integers and then a sequence of bytes 2017-10-25T23:49:28Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:50:01Z pjb: emaczen`: this is assuming a character stream. If you have a binary stream, you can either transmit the string, or if you want to transmit the bits, youc an use integer-length and ldb and dpb on the receiving side. You will have to encode integer-length the same too (it could be bigger than 256…) 2017-10-25T23:50:04Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-25T23:53:38Z emaczen`: pjb: Well the read side should be fine since I am really just trying to replace my server side ABCL code with CCL 2017-10-25T23:53:52Z emaczen`: for reading integers, I just called read-byte four times 2017-10-25T23:54:15Z pjb: What about 3433683820292512484657849089281 ? 2017-10-25T23:54:45Z emaczen`: I won't have anything larger than 4 bytes 2017-10-25T23:55:05Z pjb: So you're a filthy liar, you didn't want to transmit integer, but (signed-byte 32) ! 2017-10-25T23:55:54Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:55:58Z pjb: Anyways, ldb and dbp will help. 2017-10-25T23:57:35Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:57:38Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-10-25T23:58:09Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-25T23:58:34Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-25T23:59:05Z emaczen`: (write-sequence (make-array 3 :element-type '(signed-byte 32) :initial-contents (list length width height)) connection) 2017-10-25T23:59:09Z emaczen`: ^^ could that work? 2017-10-25T23:59:42Z emaczen`: I keep thinking integers are just 4 bytes 2017-10-26T00:00:04Z emaczen`: because they were with the Java side of ABCL... 2017-10-26T00:00:08Z pjb: You would have to use a :element-type '(signed-byte 32) so it would work only if the same implementation is at both end, same version, on same platform. Perhaps. 2017-10-26T00:00:21Z pjb: Most probably it will break. 2017-10-26T00:00:32Z pjb: You can count only on octets! 2017-10-26T00:01:34Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-26T00:02:13Z akem left #lisp 2017-10-26T00:04:03Z emaczen`: pjb: Can you give me a short example with ldb, with just writing the 4 byte integer 480 to a stream? 2017-10-26T00:04:31Z dieggsy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2017-10-26T00:04:54Z emaczen`: I'm beyond confused at this point 2017-10-26T00:05:01Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-26T00:05:02Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T00:05:17Z pjb: (write-sequence (vector (ldb (byte 8 24) n) (ldb (byte 8 16) n) (ldb (byte 8 8) n) (ldb (byte 8 0) n)) socket) 2017-10-26T00:06:23Z pjb: and (progn (assert (= 4 (read-sequence v)) (dpb (aref v 0) (byte 8 24) (dpb (aref v 1) (byte 8 16) (dpb (aref v 2) (byte 8 8) (aref v 3)))))) 2017-10-26T00:08:32Z emaczen`: what is n? 2017-10-26T00:08:45Z pjb: your Number! 2017-10-26T00:09:32Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-26T00:10:27Z emaczen`: pjb: Cool! I can write and read integers now 2017-10-26T00:10:34Z emaczen`: I just have no idea about dlb 2017-10-26T00:10:36Z emaczen`: ldb* 2017-10-26T00:11:26Z pjb: (ldb (byte s p) n) == (mod (truncate n (expt 2 p)) (1- (expt 2 s))) 2017-10-26T00:12:17Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T00:12:22Z emaczen`: pjb: Why can't I just use bit-vectors? 2017-10-26T00:12:43Z emaczen`: O 2017-10-26T00:12:46Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T00:12:47Z stux|RC quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T00:13:21Z pjb: Sure you can; first convert your integers to bit vectors: (write-sequence (make-array (integer-length n) :element 'bit :initial-contents (loop for i below (integer-length n) collect (if (logbitp i n) 1 0)))) 2017-10-26T00:13:23Z emaczen`: Ill have to read about ldb again -- mfiano took me through it a litle, but I didn't even know that bytes weren't constrained to 8 bits 2017-10-26T00:14:10Z pjb: but for that you need to use :external-type 'bit and it is implementation, platform and target dependent how bits are transmitted and received. No guarantee! Or if you still use :external-type '(unsigned-byte 8) then you transmit one octet for each bit! 8 time the transfer size! 2017-10-26T00:14:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T00:15:06Z pjb: You would also have to pad to 32-bit or transmit the lenght first. 2017-10-26T00:16:52Z emaczen`: I think bit-vectors are more expressive than ldb -- but if there are lots of issues I guess I'm back to reading ldb... 2017-10-26T00:17:03Z emaczen`: programmtically more expressive, easier to understand 2017-10-26T00:21:48Z lambdice: hi all 2017-10-26T00:23:19Z pjb: lo one 2017-10-26T00:24:58Z lambdice: :) 2017-10-26T00:25:20Z lambdice: what do you think about this book ? https://www.amazon.com/Common-Lisp-Recipes-Problem-Solution-Approach-ebook/dp/B01JFTONBS/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me= 2017-10-26T00:26:00Z lambdice: i read some snippets and really, the book looks amazing 2017-10-26T00:26:07Z pjb: Great. 2017-10-26T00:33:06Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-26T00:37:41Z quazimodo 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The book cost is 2$ but shipping to my country is 3$. 2017-10-26T04:23:43Z minion: SaganMan, memo from pjb: Books are heavy, that's why we invented electronic books. Have it scanned! 2017-10-26T04:34:30Z akem joined #lisp 2017-10-26T04:34:47Z stevie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T04:34:57Z stevie: did lisp pre-date C? 2017-10-26T04:38:40Z pjb: Of course. 2017-10-26T04:39:05Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T04:39:09Z pjb: lisp was discovered in 1958, first implemented in 1959. C was designed in 1969, evolved from B and BPCL. 2017-10-26T04:40:09Z aeth: Languages are living. Early lisp is ALL-CAPS and full of goto. Early C looks totally different, too. 2017-10-26T04:40:45Z aeth: Lisp predates C but the Lisp you'd read in any random program has a very late-1980s feel to it, if not later. 2017-10-26T04:41:27Z pjb: aeth: early lisp wasn't full of goto. 2017-10-26T04:42:07Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-26T04:42:32Z stevie: thats pretty cool 2017-10-26T04:42:47Z aeth: pjb: Well, not the earliest 2017-10-26T04:42:55Z pjb: There was GO (used in PROG) in LISP 1.5, but most functions were written in quite a functional style. 2017-10-26T04:43:35Z aeth: But I guess my point is that modern Lisp is heavily influenced by Scheme (1970) and Smalltalk (1972) 2017-10-26T04:44:24Z pjb: For example, there's no GO in the Wang program. 2017-10-26T04:44:27Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T04:45:10Z aeth: pjb: What's the one that's full of GO? I remember reading one, and you seem to know all the popular really ancient Lisp programs 2017-10-26T04:45:18Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-26T04:46:30Z pjb: I don't know. I was about to say that it would be interesting to collect old programs, and do some statistics… 2017-10-26T04:48:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T04:48:38Z aeth: I think it used prog. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm 2017-10-26T04:49:23Z aeth: There is http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ 2017-10-26T04:50:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-26T04:51:15Z aeth: So the programs might be there 2017-10-26T04:51:25Z stevie: lisp is an ugly bast**d of a language. rip john mccarthy 2017-10-26T04:52:27Z aeth: another site that has lots of old Lisp stuff: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ 2017-10-26T04:53:19Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T04:53:50Z stevie: thats pretty neat, im going through this 2017-10-26T04:54:55Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T04:55:09Z SaganMan: pjb: I prefer having physical books. It's better for eyes. 2017-10-26T04:55:32Z SaganMan: is go still used a lot in cl? 2017-10-26T04:57:05Z stevie: I know that tar has a basis on tape, but is tap the same as tar? 2017-10-26T04:58:54Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T05:02:16Z pjb: SaganMan: yes and no. It's not written directly by human programmers, but it's expanded by macros. 2017-10-26T05:02:25Z iqubic_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:02:38Z pjb: stevie: type /topic 2017-10-26T05:02:49Z iqubic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T05:02:50Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T05:03:39Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:04:01Z stevie: pjb: I understand, was just curious 2017-10-26T05:04:33Z stnutt quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T05:07:16Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T05:09:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:13:47Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T05:15:22Z grumble quit (Quit: world) 2017-10-26T05:15:51Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:16:01Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:17:40Z ssake joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:26:28Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:28:01Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-26T05:28:22Z aeth: I prefer physical books because it's easier to focus reading a physical book than a book on a distraction device. 2017-10-26T05:28:44Z aeth: (Programming itself is different because programming is very interactive.) 2017-10-26T05:32:07Z whoman: some screens are nicer than others 2017-10-26T05:32:42Z whoman: kindle apparently has nice screens for reading. i turn brightness down on mobiles which probably helps in one way but hurts in another 2017-10-26T05:35:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-26T05:37:43Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T05:38:26Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-26T05:41:16Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-26T05:42:39Z shka_: beach: hello 2017-10-26T05:46:50Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-26T06:00:08Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-26T06:05:47Z Shinmera: sjl_: Fuck, I forgot to write the Harmony examples yesterday. 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Everything else might be upgraded to T or something else. 2017-10-26T09:51:11Z SaganMan: he linked the standard to clhs 2017-10-26T09:51:21Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T09:52:23Z Shinmera: Right. The linked page says that the only types that need to be explicitly supported as element-types are bit, base-char, and character. 2017-10-26T09:52:34Z Shinmera: Everything else could be upgraded to a T element-type. 2017-10-26T09:53:38Z Shinmera: Which is bad for performance, since it means you need to either manually annotate every value you retrieve from the array, or suffer the consequences of run time type dispatch. 2017-10-26T09:54:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T09:54:24Z Shinmera: It also means the implementation is not going to pack the value into the array and instead store a pointer to a box, meaning additional unpacking cost on dereference. 2017-10-26T09:55:02Z Shinmera: Anyway 2017-10-26T09:55:25Z Shinmera: the point he makes with it is kind of moot because if you really want performance, choosing an implementation that isn't going to be performant is bogus. 2017-10-26T09:56:02Z Shinmera: there's not multiple Julia implementations either, so the comparison falls flat. 2017-10-26T09:56:18Z Shinmera: It would be much fairer to compare Julia against SBCL. 2017-10-26T09:57:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-26T09:58:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T09:58:59Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:00:28Z SaganMan: hmm, I thought it's an old post as he's not using sbcl 2017-10-26T10:01:51Z SaganMan: it would be waste of effort for him to switch to another language now after he's done so much with cl 2017-10-26T10:02:36Z Shinmera: :shrug: it's his decision to make and his time to spend. 2017-10-26T10:02:36Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾ 2017-10-26T10:02:43Z SaganMan: and with so many years of using cl, that would also hinder one's style of programming, isn't it? 2017-10-26T10:02:56Z Shinmera: Huh? 2017-10-26T10:04:48Z SaganMan: I mean when you write code in new languages, it follows the style of your old language. In lisp, we use extensive macros and functions 2017-10-26T10:04:48Z vydd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T10:05:04Z Shinmera: Why would it 2017-10-26T10:05:24Z Shinmera: I never wrote lisp the way I write Java 2017-10-26T10:06:17Z varjag: i think they just wanted to play around in julia and found some lame excuse to switch :) 2017-10-26T10:06:29Z SaganMan: really? my python code is like my C code. Though there a significant changes but I feel like I'm not using language libraries to it's fullest. I mean like that. 2017-10-26T10:06:34Z Shinmera: varjag: Some of the points he makes are legitimate. 2017-10-26T10:07:10Z Shinmera: Different languages have different strengths. Lisp is not a golden bullet. 2017-10-26T10:08:08Z varjag: the point about array specialization was contrived and lame 2017-10-26T10:09:56Z Shinmera: It's a fair point to make if you want to write portable code that's fast. But I don't think it's a fair comparison to strike between a group of implementations and a single implementation. 2017-10-26T10:10:10Z varjag: yes 2017-10-26T10:11:01Z Shinmera: Anyway, Julia can do some neat things with packing memory and compile-time optimisation because it is much more rigid than CL in that approach. (static, inferred types is the new trend it seems) 2017-10-26T10:13:12Z Shinmera: I don't think Julia is going to convince the Lisp crowd, but I would welcome it instead of Matlab, which I hate with the power of a thousand exploding suns. 2017-10-26T10:14:18Z Shinmera: Unfortunately I also doubt its ecosystem and maturity are going to rival or excel Matlab any time soon. 2017-10-26T10:17:32Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:17:54Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T10:20:27Z Guest12879 is now known as pax 2017-10-26T10:20:58Z pax is now known as Guest19037 2017-10-26T10:21:53Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T10:22:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-26T10:24:57Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T10:26:14Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-26T10:26:29Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:29:52Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:41:18Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:42:22Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:45:59Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:46:52Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:46:55Z Younder joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:47:04Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T10:49:34Z nika quit 2017-10-26T10:54:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:55:00Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T10:55:37Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T10:57:58Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-26T10:59:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T11:00:52Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:00:52Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:01:22Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:03:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T11:06:15Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:06:55Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T11:07:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:08:55Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:12:38Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T11:16:30Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:16:42Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T11:16:42Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-10-26T11:16:42Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T11:17:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T11:21:20Z Guest19037 is now known as pax 2017-10-26T11:21:50Z pax is now known as Guest97043 2017-10-26T11:23:11Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:23:32Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T11:24:00Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:27:17Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T11:27:17Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-10-26T11:31:40Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T11:33:02Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:34:22Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:34:25Z gtuser joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:36:11Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:38:35Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T11:40:13Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T11:45:44Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T11:54:31Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:55:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T11:55:25Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T11:58:19Z u0_a118 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T12:00:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T12:00:17Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:01:22Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:02:18Z mathi_aihtam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T12:02:44Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:05:08Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:05:09Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:05:42Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:06:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:06:39Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:08:59Z Shinmera: sjl_: Please join me in #shirakumo for future libmixed/harmony discussions. https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23shirakumo?from=1509019350#1509019350 2017-10-26T12:11:35Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:11:56Z _death: Shinmera: a few weeks ago I wrote lisp like the way someone wrote java :).. some time before that, I wrote lisp like the way someone C :).. direct ports are ugly 2017-10-26T12:13:01Z Shinmera: _death: Well, sure. Ports are something else, though. 2017-10-26T12:13:11Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:13:33Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-26T12:13:33Z Shinmera grinds his teeth about some of the C-isms that unfortunately slip through between the cracks in some of his bindings libraries. 2017-10-26T12:13:42Z _death: Shinmera: yes, it was just a btw remark 2017-10-26T12:14:28Z Xach: Montezuma is very ruby-ish. 2017-10-26T12:14:37Z Xach: Quite a direct port in most places. 2017-10-26T12:14:39Z gtuser: if i could write lisp the way someone wrote perl, i'd encompass the gamut 2017-10-26T12:14:47Z _death: it was surprising that in both cases code pretty much worked w/o more fumbling 2017-10-26T12:15:07Z Shinmera: _death: The trendy thing is to just write a compiler and run code verbatim 2017-10-26T12:15:36Z _death: Shinmera: yes, I also went with this approach for some atari BASIC programs.. but it's incomplete 2017-10-26T12:16:24Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:16:54Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:17:00Z _death: may have deleted that project, hmm 2017-10-26T12:17:03Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:17:21Z akem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T12:17:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:18:59Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:20:53Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:22:02Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T12:22:10Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:22:15Z Guest97043 is now known as pax 2017-10-26T12:22:35Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-26T12:22:44Z pax is now known as Guest13916 2017-10-26T12:30:31Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:35:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:35:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:35:13Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-26T12:39:43Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:42:27Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:43:38Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T12:44:31Z stevie_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:44:45Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:45:57Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:47:29Z stevie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T12:53:27Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T12:54:14Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T12:55:05Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:55:10Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:55:35Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:58:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T12:58:58Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T12:59:23Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T12:59:38Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:00:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:02:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T13:07:02Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:07:44Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T13:09:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:12:00Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:16:59Z stevie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:18:27Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:19:47Z stevie_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T13:21:12Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:21:16Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T13:23:13Z Guest13916 is now known as pax 2017-10-26T13:23:42Z pax is now known as Guest97503 2017-10-26T13:24:36Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T13:25:10Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:28:17Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:33:38Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T13:36:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:40:41Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:43:58Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:48:51Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:54:34Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-26T13:57:51Z stevie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:00:20Z stevie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:01:35Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:02:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:02:07Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:02:39Z jmercouris: Hi everyone, can someone explain the issue with loading a framwork in my code: https://gist.github.com/2a155918ca0e1507e5dc0d87b803c39d 2017-10-26T14:02:58Z jmercouris: How could the (in-package "CCL") make it resolve in the first case, but not in the second 2017-10-26T14:03:10Z Shinmera: eval-when only works at top levels 2017-10-26T14:03:13Z Shinmera: clhs eval-when 2017-10-26T14:03:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 2017-10-26T14:03:27Z Shinmera: If it's not at the top-level it turns into PROGN 2017-10-26T14:03:38Z jmercouris: Ah okay, my stupidity 2017-10-26T14:03:41Z jmercouris: Thank you 2017-10-26T14:04:22Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T14:04:59Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T14:05:02Z jmercouris: At any rate, I still can't access that symbol for some reason 2017-10-26T14:05:33Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:05:51Z beach: What symbol? 2017-10-26T14:06:15Z jmercouris: (objc:load-framework) 2017-10-26T14:07:13Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:09:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:14:02Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:15:01Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T14:18:45Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:18:53Z jmercouris: beach: Seems I can only do (objc:load-framework) at the top level, what could be the reasons for that? 2017-10-26T14:19:28Z beach: Sorry, I am busy right now (in #clim). I'll get back to you later. 2017-10-26T14:19:36Z jmercouris: beach: No problem! 2017-10-26T14:19:51Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:22:46Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T14:22:52Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:24:19Z Guest97503 is now known as pax 2017-10-26T14:24:44Z fe[nl]ix: Bike: thanks for the fixes 2017-10-26T14:24:48Z pax is now known as Guest46818 2017-10-26T14:25:11Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T14:28:44Z Bike: uhhuh, tell me if you need anything else 2017-10-26T14:29:01Z Bike: i'm glad emacs makes untabify so easy 2017-10-26T14:31:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:32:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:40:57Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:41:20Z fe[nl]ix: I'll try to use it in static-vectors, iolib and maybe cffi 2017-10-26T14:41:23Z fe[nl]ix: we'll see 2017-10-26T14:42:21Z fe[nl]ix: I probably don't need most of its features 2017-10-26T14:42:49Z beach: jmercouris: What do you mean by "access that symbol"? 2017-10-26T14:43:24Z beach: jmercouris: It doesn't make sense that the symbol exists at the top level and does not when inside some form. 2017-10-26T14:44:05Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T14:45:08Z beach: jmercouris: Can you give use the version that does not work, and tell us what happens when you try? 2017-10-26T14:47:10Z beach: jmercouris: Perhaps you are saying that, when you do the require and the load-framework ONLY inside a function (like INITIALIZE), then you get an error from the compiler (or from LOADing the file) that the symbol load-framework does not exist? 2017-10-26T14:47:23Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:48:24Z beach: jmercouris: If so, that is entirely normal. Symbols are resolved by READ, i.e., when the code is read in order to be compiled. But the REQUIRE has not been executed then, so the package in which the symbol exists has not been created yet. 2017-10-26T14:49:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:54:27Z jmercouris: beach: I think I understood thta 2017-10-26T14:55:03Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:55:03Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:55:03Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2017-10-26T14:55:03Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:55:05Z jmercouris: beach: I'll clarify my situation:(objc:load-framework "WebKit" :webkit) works within eval-when, but not when within a defun 2017-10-26T14:55:24Z jmercouris: I simply C-l - file.lisp, and it works in one case, but not in the other 2017-10-26T14:56:07Z jmercouris: beach: and yes, that makes no sense to me either, how it may work when at top-level, but not within defun 2017-10-26T14:56:43Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:56:58Z SaganMan: beach: I'm reading a book which suggests to use setq and setf outside the defun. Why is that? 2017-10-26T14:57:17Z Bike: in old lisp code they sometimes used setq to define variables 2017-10-26T14:57:22Z Bike: we don't do that any more 2017-10-26T14:57:47Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-26T14:57:56Z SaganMan: what do they use now Bike? 2017-10-26T14:57:59Z beach: jmercouris: Can youi tell me what "does not work" means? In what way? 2017-10-26T14:58:01Z Bike: jmercouris: do you mean C-c C-l 2017-10-26T14:58:01Z SaganMan: defpar? 2017-10-26T14:58:10Z Bike: SaganMan: defvar and defparameter define special variables, yes 2017-10-26T14:58:19Z jmercouris: Bike: Yeah, that's what I meant, sorry, I press the keybinding so I fast I forget about the first part 2017-10-26T14:58:24Z SaganMan: why not setq Bike? 2017-10-26T14:58:28Z jmercouris: beach: Does not work means the following: https://gist.github.com/jmercouris/2a155918ca0e1507e5dc0d87b803c39d 2017-10-26T14:58:34Z Bike: because setq sets, it doesn't define 2017-10-26T14:58:50Z jmercouris: beach: The response is at the bottom-most part of the gist 2017-10-26T14:58:53Z stevie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T14:58:56Z Bike: jmercouris: are these two separate files? or what? 2017-10-26T14:59:13Z jmercouris: Bike: Yes 2017-10-26T14:59:19Z beach: You should have said that. 2017-10-26T14:59:30Z beach: No wonder nothing you said made any sense. 2017-10-26T14:59:32Z jmercouris: I'm sorry, I thought it was clear 2017-10-26T14:59:33Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T14:59:42Z Bike: so how does the sequence go, you load the first file and then the second one? 2017-10-26T14:59:45Z beach: jmercouris: Then look at my last analysis. 2017-10-26T14:59:50Z SaganMan: so for all variables you use defparameter and all constants defvar 2017-10-26T14:59:53Z SaganMan: I see 2017-10-26T15:00:05Z Bike: er, no 2017-10-26T15:00:10Z beach: jmercouris: Symbols are resolved by the reader. 2017-10-26T15:00:12Z Bike: defvar defines a variable, naturally 2017-10-26T15:00:25Z Bike: defparameter and defvar only differ in how they initialize the value of the variable 2017-10-26T15:00:35Z Plazma joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:00:46Z jmercouris: beach: And the reader at that time has no idea that that exists? 2017-10-26T15:00:52Z beach: jmercouris: The package must exist when the reader processes the code. 2017-10-26T15:00:58Z stevie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:01:08Z beach: You don't create that package until you do require. 2017-10-26T15:01:08Z jmercouris: beach: Which package? interface, or ccl? 2017-10-26T15:01:15Z beach: objc 2017-10-26T15:01:38Z beach: You also haven't told us the relationship between cocoa and objc. 2017-10-26T15:01:40Z jmercouris: beach: So, I could add this to my defpackage as a use, and it would be available to me? 2017-10-26T15:02:02Z beach: But I assume that requiring cocoa creates the package. 2017-10-26T15:02:29Z jmercouris: beach: I'm not really sure the relationships between everything honestly, the CCL documentation is pretty lacking 2017-10-26T15:02:29Z beach: I don't see a defpackage, so I have no idea. 2017-10-26T15:03:02Z jmercouris: beach: here's my defpackage: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/cocoa-backend/next/lisp/package.lisp 2017-10-26T15:03:23Z Bike: those are your packages, not the objc package 2017-10-26T15:03:24Z jmercouris: beach: I haven't yet converted everything to clos, for now I just did the interface separation 2017-10-26T15:03:29Z beach: My guess is that REQUIRE loads the code for the interface, and when that happens, the package objc gets created. Since you don't call require until in a function, then the package does not exist when the code is read. 2017-10-26T15:04:01Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T15:04:09Z SaganMan: There was lisp even before the old lisp, where there was just set, no setq and all 2017-10-26T15:04:11Z beach: jmercouris: I don't get what you are doing. None of those defpackage forms define a package called objc, so they are unrelated. 2017-10-26T15:04:24Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah okay, I thought you were asking about my defpackage 2017-10-26T15:04:34Z jmercouris: Okay, so is it bad practice to have a require form at the top? 2017-10-26T15:04:41Z Bike: It's okay for a script 2017-10-26T15:04:42Z jmercouris: There will be sideffects when I load my code then 2017-10-26T15:04:45Z beach: Because you wondered whether adding something to them would fix your problem. 2017-10-26T15:04:46Z jmercouris: It is not a script though 2017-10-26T15:04:51Z Bike: but for a system like this, you would have it as a system dependency 2017-10-26T15:04:55Z Bike: do you have an asdf system? 2017-10-26T15:04:58Z jmercouris: Yes, I do 2017-10-26T15:05:30Z Bike: okay, there's probably a way to include cocoa as a dependency, like putting it in the :Depends-on 2017-10-26T15:05:38Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:05:39Z beach: jmercouris: Why on earth do you not want to do the require before loading your code? 2017-10-26T15:05:40Z Bike: but i don't know ccl in enough detail to say this confidently 2017-10-26T15:06:04Z jmercouris: beach: Because I want to able to load my entire system side-effect free 2017-10-26T15:06:06Z Bike: beach: because this is a file in the middle of their system. 2017-10-26T15:06:07Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:06:27Z Bike: loading is pretty inherently side effectual, though 2017-10-26T15:06:46Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-26T15:07:05Z beach: I should go do something else. I am not understanding very well at this point. 2017-10-26T15:07:23Z Bike: but it's obviously a cleaner system design if all the dependencies of the system are specified at the same point, in the defsystem. 2017-10-26T15:07:25Z jmercouris: It's alright, I think I got it from here, I get it 2017-10-26T15:07:48Z jmercouris: Bike: Yeah, definitely, the problem is, my two backends have different requirements :\ 2017-10-26T15:07:56Z jmercouris: and I didn't want to make multiple system definitions 2017-10-26T15:09:19Z Bike: asdf has conditional dependencies and stuff, but another thing i don't know much about 2017-10-26T15:09:43Z Bike: if the backends require separate code it m ight make sense to have a system for each backend, and then have the main system depend on whatever configurably 2017-10-26T15:09:59Z jmercouris: Yeah, pjb was telling me about that earlier 2017-10-26T15:10:15Z jmercouris: I thought it added some complexity I could somehow avoid, but I don't know, that may be the right path 2017-10-26T15:11:08Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T15:12:57Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:17:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:21:37Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:24:14Z jmercouris: Bike: The feature you're thinking about is here: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-grammar.html - 6.3.4 2017-10-26T15:24:47Z jmercouris: I'm really quite close to just doing it that way... 2017-10-26T15:24:49Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:25:53Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T15:26:58Z Bike: more feature dependencies than defsystem depends on 2017-10-26T15:27:09Z Bike: defsystem depends on is for when you're customizing asdf, i think 2017-10-26T15:27:14Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:28:12Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:30:38Z jmercouris: Bike: Hmm, I think you're right, though I guess you could use it in a "wrong" way 2017-10-26T15:31:17Z jmercouris: Bike: It only says "typically this is used for extensions" :P 2017-10-26T15:33:27Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:34:02Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:35:53Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:37:31Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:39:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T15:44:09Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:45:29Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:47:24Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:48:26Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T15:48:44Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:56:05Z u0_a118 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T15:56:27Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T15:57:31Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-26T15:57:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:00:02Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T16:01:35Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T16:03:33Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-26T16:08:22Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:09:01Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:09:02Z drcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T16:09:53Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:10:12Z rpg: jmercouris: I think there might be a way to stick a REQUIRE into an ASDF system definition, but I need to look -- there's unfortunately a REQUIRE-SYSTEM that is not that.... 2017-10-26T16:11:30Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:14:27Z jmercouris: rpg: Interesting, please let me know if you remember anything! 2017-10-26T16:20:38Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T16:22:26Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:23:45Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-26T16:24:30Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:26:33Z jmercouris: Are there any ELS papers online looking for contributors? 2017-10-26T16:26:56Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:26:58Z jmercouris: E.g. does anyone want a contributor? I can try to do basic stuff at the very least, like maybe some proofreading, or citations 2017-10-26T16:27:09Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: as of requier in defsystem 2017-10-26T16:27:21Z stevie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:27:23Z jackdaniel: :depends-on ((:require "foo")) should work 2017-10-26T16:27:52Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Awesome, thank you! 2017-10-26T16:28:22Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:29:05Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:29:12Z Bike: oh shit, i didn't know there were require dependencies 2017-10-26T16:29:18Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:29:18Z jackdaniel: for instance: (defsystem foo :depends-on (#+sbcl(:require "sb-sprof"))) 2017-10-26T16:29:55Z beach: jmercouris: It's a bit early for ELS papers. The conference dates have only just been announced. The deadline is likely to be announced soon and is probably going to be January or February. So people probably haven't started working yet. 2017-10-26T16:30:15Z stevie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:30:23Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: the #+sbcl directive you've written there, does something exist like that for all implmentations? 2017-10-26T16:30:43Z jackdaniel: yes, if you target ccl, do #+ccl 2017-10-26T16:30:49Z jmercouris: beach: Ok, I'll just have to wait patiently :D 2017-10-26T16:30:59Z beach: clhs #+ 2017-10-26T16:30:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 2017-10-26T16:31:59Z Bike: asdf also has feature dependencies, can you do, like, both? 2017-10-26T16:32:00Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:32:47Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: but if it is true that it is not documented in asdf manual, I'd press asdf team to add it there or I wouldn't depend on :require working 2017-10-26T16:33:06Z jackdaniel: because otherwise it is not considered being a subject of backward compatibility 2017-10-26T16:33:22Z jmercouris: Right for sure, I don't know whether it does or does not exist in the manual, I didn't read it very well honestly 2017-10-26T16:33:45Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-26T16:34:21Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:35:17Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:36:31Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:38:43Z rpg: jmercouris: See https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#The-defsystem-grammar for :REQUIRE dependencies 2017-10-26T16:41:42Z Bike: and it says to use iffeature, uhhuh 2017-10-26T16:41:54Z jmercouris: I thought iffeature was deprecated? 2017-10-26T16:42:06Z stevie_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:42:28Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:43:13Z Bike: why would it be deprecated? 2017-10-26T16:43:20Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#if_002dfeature-option doesn't look deprecated 2017-10-26T16:44:12Z jmercouris: Bike: maybe not the word deprecated, but it said usage was discouraged, I remember reading it just 30 minutes ago 2017-10-26T16:44:24Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:44:49Z stevie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:45:14Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T16:46:39Z Bike: i don't see anything saying it's dicouraged 2017-10-26T16:47:50Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:49:18Z rpg: I think only its predecessor, :if-does-not-mumble-mumble that is deprecated 2017-10-26T16:49:32Z jmercouris: Bike: I was thinking of 6.3.6, my apologies 2017-10-26T16:49:54Z dlowe: at this point, mentions of deprecation in the standard can be seen as some light humor 2017-10-26T16:50:09Z jmercouris: I've opened the manual so many times today I've lost track 2017-10-26T16:50:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:52:35Z stevie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:52:43Z mwsb joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:52:57Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T16:55:04Z u0_a118 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:55:29Z stevie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:55:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-26T16:56:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-26T16:56:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T17:02:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:02:24Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T17:02:25Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T17:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T17:04:43Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T17:04:52Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:05:49Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:06:04Z turkja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T17:06:09Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:06:11Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T17:12:12Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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The IDE bus can transfer 40 MB/s at least, so it should not take much more than 1/4 sec. 2017-10-26T17:23:07Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:23:26Z Josh_2: pjb: you are a fountain of knowledge 2017-10-26T17:23:28Z pjb: From the network, it depends on the available bandwidth. 2017-10-26T17:23:47Z pjb: Josh_2: https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832 2017-10-26T17:24:00Z emaczen: Alright, here is the question: 2017-10-26T17:24:25Z emaczen: On both the server and client I put print forms before and after the write and read forms respectively, on each there is a 3 second time elapse between the print forms 2017-10-26T17:24:35Z emaczen: whose fault is it? I think it is the server 2017-10-26T17:24:52Z emaczen: because the client is probably just waiting to read? 2017-10-26T17:25:02Z pjb: Josh_2: and then of course, just read the spec sheets of your hardware ;-) 2017-10-26T17:25:38Z pjb: emaczen: buffering, flushing, etc. Your measuring time is probably deficient. 2017-10-26T17:25:57Z Josh_2: Well I know the speed about something like my SSD 2017-10-26T17:26:09Z emaczen: I have force-output on the server 2017-10-26T17:26:12Z pjb: Josh_2: I still have HDDs :-) 2017-10-26T17:26:19Z pjb: emaczen: that's good. 2017-10-26T17:27:21Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:27:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:27:54Z pjb: What kind of network do you have? Usually, you can count on at most half the max speed. ie. Gb/s Ethernet won't give you much more than 500 Mb/s; that's only 50 MB/s, so about the IDE speed. 2017-10-26T17:27:58Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-26T17:28:21Z pjb: If you have 100 Mb/s network, then 5 MB/s at most. 3 MB/s would be a perfectly good transfer time on such a network. 2017-10-26T17:28:32Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:28:54Z emaczen: pjb: I'm just working with ethernet, and I'm assuming 100 Mb/s, you mean 50 right? 2017-10-26T17:29:01Z Josh_2: pjb: isn't it 100/8 the max? 2017-10-26T17:29:06Z Josh_2: I swear I can't English. 2017-10-26T17:29:23Z pjb: You can round 100/2/10 as max, because of overhead, etc. 2017-10-26T17:29:23Z emaczen: Oh, I missed the byte / bit 2017-10-26T17:29:47Z Josh_2: Why 10 and not 8? 2017-10-26T17:30:07Z pjb: 100/2 because it's CSMA/CD. 2017-10-26T17:30:18Z pjb: and 10 instead of 8 because of the overhead in packets. 2017-10-26T17:30:24Z Josh_2: ahh okay 2017-10-26T17:30:42Z pjb: rule of thumb, of course you could make more precise calculations. 2017-10-26T17:30:42Z Josh_2: I'm guessing you avoid most of that when you are using localhost? Except the /10 bit 2017-10-26T17:30:54Z pjb: /2 is for CSMA/CD and overhead in the kernels, routers, etc. 2017-10-26T17:31:05Z pjb: Josh_2: yes. 2017-10-26T17:31:07Z emaczen: pjb: This actually makes sense now... I thought I had 100 MB/s not 100 Mb/s 2017-10-26T17:31:25Z pjb: Yes, communication engineers work in bit/second. 2017-10-26T17:31:32Z emaczen: So the 3 second delay makes a lot of sense... 2017-10-26T17:31:38Z pjb: I would says so. 2017-10-26T17:31:49Z Josh_2: emaczen: It's the same as when your ISP says you get "100mb/s" then you are downloading things at 8 mega bytes a second 2017-10-26T17:32:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T17:33:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:33:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-26T17:33:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:37:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:38:30Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:38:54Z emaczen: Josh_2: Hah, wow now that I am paying attention to the byte/bit this is depressing... 2017-10-26T17:41:49Z pjb: emaczen: and about packet overhead, check your MTU. 2017-10-26T17:43:46Z rpg: OT: does anyone know if there's a CL interface to the ICE RPC system? 2017-10-26T17:44:07Z shka_: good evening everyone 2017-10-26T17:44:30Z pjb: ethernet + IP + TCP headers take about 62 bytes. If your MTU is 1500 (typical on local ethernet), then that's 4% overhead. 2017-10-26T17:44:59Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:45:02Z pjb: For a more typical MTU of 520 bytes, that's about 12% overhead! 2017-10-26T17:45:22Z Ven is now known as Guest6907 2017-10-26T17:45:35Z jackdaniel: if element-type is byte, it may get a bit faster (in comparison to character) 2017-10-26T17:45:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:45:42Z pjb: Locally, you could have fun configuring bigger MTU (if your ethernet cards allow it). 2017-10-26T17:45:44Z jackdaniel: because you don't have overhead caused by encoding 2017-10-26T17:46:29Z pjb: Transmission time is overwhelming. Encoding/decoding won't matter, as the multiple buffer copying occuring… 2017-10-26T17:49:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T17:54:56Z noobly joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:55:58Z mn3m quit (Changing host) 2017-10-26T17:55:58Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T17:56:56Z asarch: "Be happy." —ANSI X3J13 2017-10-26T17:57:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-26T17:57:23Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T18:03:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:05:59Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:06:51Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-26T18:09:06Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T18:09:48Z stevie quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-26T18:10:01Z Guest6907 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T18:10:07Z noobly left #lisp 2017-10-26T18:11:05Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-10-26T18:12:36Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T18:14:55Z cyberlard is now known as mantecaciberneti 2017-10-26T18:14:59Z u0_a118 quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-26T18:16:58Z mantecaciberneti is now known as cibermanteca 2017-10-26T18:16:58Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T18:19:14Z mn3m quit (Quit: mn3m) 2017-10-26T18:19:35Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:19:41Z mn3m quit (Changing host) 2017-10-26T18:19:41Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:22:55Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T18:26:18Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-26T18:28:27Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:29:58Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-26T18:31:43Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T18:31:51Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:32:56Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:35:17Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:36:42Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:37:41Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T18:40:46Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:41:47Z emaczen`: I'm getting: The value 320.0 is not of the expected type DOUBLE-FLOAT 2017-10-26T18:41:54Z emaczen`: the context here is a CFFI defcfun call 2017-10-26T18:42:23Z mn3m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T18:42:42Z emaczen`: I don't see anything with CFFI to conver to a foreign float 2017-10-26T18:43:02Z nzambe joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:44:25Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T18:44:40Z jackdaniel: emaczen`: try for instance: (defcfun ("sqrt" c-sqrt) :double (n :double)) 2017-10-26T18:44:53Z jackdaniel: it's cffi responsibility to convert n to double 2017-10-26T18:45:19Z emaczen`: well then what is my error? 2017-10-26T18:45:35Z emaczen`: jackdaniel: Yeah, I've never had to convert basic types before 2017-10-26T18:45:55Z jackdaniel: hm, or maybe I'm wrong? 2017-10-26T18:46:05Z jackdaniel: I've tried my example and I had to call coerce manually 2017-10-26T18:46:11Z jackdaniel: like (c-sqrt (coerce 3.0 'double-float)) 2017-10-26T18:46:46Z jackdaniel: or 3.0d0 2017-10-26T18:47:01Z emaczen`: coercing seems to work 2017-10-26T18:47:11Z emaczen`: but good to know the literal syntax 2017-10-26T18:47:46Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-10-26T18:47:54Z jackdaniel: I think it is as follows: cffi doesn't record function argument types, but it has mapping between lisp<->foreign types (at least for built-in types) 2017-10-26T18:48:30Z jackdaniel: but that's a guess, I'd consult cffi types 2017-10-26T18:57:21Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:02:47Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:05:21Z emaczen`: pjb and Josh_2 thanks for the MB/s Mb/s clarification... I finally got something acceptable 2017-10-26T19:05:21Z mingus` joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:08:21Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:09:19Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:09:35Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:15:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:15:47Z Ven is now known as Guest20545 2017-10-26T19:22:41Z Guest20545 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:26:02Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:30:04Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:31:12Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:32:06Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:35:20Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:35:25Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T19:35:46Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:37:10Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:37:26Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:43:17Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:45:57Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:52:21Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T19:54:22Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T19:55:06Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:58:55Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:58:58Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-26T19:59:18Z Ven is now known as Guest34872 2017-10-26T20:02:10Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:03:06Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-26T20:10:25Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-26T20:10:53Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:12:14Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T20:12:28Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:12:35Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T20:14:05Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:15:55Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T20:17:21Z pfdietz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T20:18:03Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T20:19:02Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:19:48Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:25:43Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:26:55Z carleos joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:28:48Z Guest34872 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T20:30:53Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T20:31:05Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:32:31Z gtuser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T20:33:20Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T20:35:56Z carleos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T20:35:57Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T20:39:47Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:44:26Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:49:45Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T20:56:25Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:00:47Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:01:00Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:02:10Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:02:41Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:04:08Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:05:39Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:06:29Z aeth: Is it always valid to have a struct refer to its own type in :type? e.g. (defstruct (kons (:conc-name nil)) (kar 0 :type fixnum) (kdr nil :type (or null kons))) 2017-10-26T21:06:48Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:07:46Z aeth: Hmm... It looks like sbcl, ccl, and ecl will all accept that, and sbcl and ecl will handle that as expected, but ccl will not typecheck kdr in the constructor (but will typecheck when setf'ing the kdr) 2017-10-26T21:08:41Z aeth: hah, and ECL has the opposite problem of CCL. Checks the constructor but not the setf. 2017-10-26T21:08:53Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen) 2017-10-26T21:09:35Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:10:11Z Colleen quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-26T21:10:20Z aeth: So it looks like one cannot portably write typed lists through structs. 2017-10-26T21:10:40Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:14:44Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:16:37Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:19:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:20:07Z Aaryn joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:20:30Z margeas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T21:21:12Z pfdietz_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:22:03Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:27:08Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:27:09Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-26T21:30:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:32:47Z edgar-rft: aeth: AFAIK lists are *always* of type list, so IMO there are no untyped lists. 2017-10-26T21:33:11Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:33:26Z pjb: aeth: notice that (defstruct s (f nil :type s)) doesn't let you (make-s). You need to use the type s in a (or null s)! 2017-10-26T21:33:45Z pjb: (defstruct s (f nil :type (or null s))) Then you can (make-s :f (make-s)) 2017-10-26T21:34:55Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:37:22Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-26T21:41:36Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:42:58Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:43:33Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:45:44Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-26T21:47:55Z mercourisj joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:48:14Z Aritheanie quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-26T21:48:54Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:49:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:49:23Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:49:48Z Aritheanie joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:50:35Z motersen joined #lisp 2017-10-26T21:54:45Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-26T21:55:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T21:56:12Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:56:50Z Rawriful quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-26T21:59:25Z isBEKaml left #lisp 2017-10-26T22:01:00Z emaczen: what is the recommended png library for commonlisp? 2017-10-26T22:01:09Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-26T22:01:24Z whartung joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:03:36Z whoman: there is a new one 2017-10-26T22:04:32Z Xach: emaczen: i made a png writing library in pure common lisp. it is not as fast as an ffi library. (i can't remember the name of an ffi one, sorry) 2017-10-26T22:04:39Z Xach: emaczen: it is called zpng 2017-10-26T22:04:40Z whoman: https://github.com/Ramarren/png-read ? 2017-10-26T22:04:56Z Xach: mfiano made one, i think, that is better than png-read 2017-10-26T22:05:13Z Shinmera: Yes, https://github.com/mfiano/pngload 2017-10-26T22:05:29Z whoman: sorry, it is this one \ 2017-10-26T22:05:32Z whoman: https://github.com/mfiano/pngload 2017-10-26T22:05:44Z whoman: oops yes =) 2017-10-26T22:06:01Z ak51 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:06:01Z Xach: i like zpng because it can run on any lisp without a C library but I can appreciate the need for more speed. 2017-10-26T22:06:32Z Shinmera: pngload is pure-lisp too, afaiu 2017-10-26T22:06:42Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:06:43Z whoman: dont think .. yeah 2017-10-26T22:06:45Z Xach: yes, that is my understanding also 2017-10-26T22:07:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:08:08Z emaczen: what is the fastest one? 2017-10-26T22:08:17Z mfiano: Yes, it is pure lisp, and the fastest pure lisp png reader 2017-10-26T22:08:21Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:10:00Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T22:10:12Z aeth: edgar-rft: I mean, a list-like data structure of typed contents, which in true Lisp style would be a cons where the first element is typed 2017-10-26T22:10:26Z aeth: (As opposed to other ways to create a linked list) 2017-10-26T22:10:29Z mfiano: IT could be made faster, but I think I was aiming for a nice balance between readability/hackability and performance. Also the biggest bottleneck is the chipz delfate decoding library, which calculates the adler32 more than once iirc. Most of the time is spent in chipz, and I don't really have time to write a deflate parser at the moment 2017-10-26T22:11:27Z ak52 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:11:38Z Xach: mfiano: for what it's worth, i used pierre mai's Deflate for quicklisp because the code is simpler and it is a little faster. 2017-10-26T22:11:42Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:12:03Z mfiano: Xach: I looked into it. I can't remember why I dismissed it at this time. 2017-10-26T22:12:20Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:12:29Z bentaisan joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:13:19Z aeth: pjb: yes, but the type-checking is inconsistent, so it doesn't really create any type-checking shortcut 2017-10-26T22:13:21Z ak51 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:14:54Z emaczen: do we have a consensus as to which png library is faster for encoding/decoding? 2017-10-26T22:16:24Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:16:45Z mfiano: emaczen: That depends. Are we talking about lisp libraries, or C? 2017-10-26T22:17:08Z emaczen: mfiano: whatever is available on quicklisp that I can just quickload 2017-10-26T22:17:40Z mfiano: emaczen: "png" may be what you want then, but bear in mind that it depends on an ancient libpng1.2. 2017-10-26T22:17:58Z mfiano: So your operating system will need that installed. 2017-10-26T22:18:24Z emaczen: mfiano: Yeah... what about the fastest one that doesn't have any old dependencies? 2017-10-26T22:19:36Z mfiano: I would say either sdl2_image or cl-soil 2017-10-26T22:20:00Z mfiano: Both not lisp, but meet your requirements. 2017-10-26T22:20:35Z mfiano: As for encoders, I have no idea. zpng is limited but works great. 2017-10-26T22:20:50Z emaczen: sdl2_image will only decode? 2017-10-26T22:20:52Z pjb: aeth: depends on the implementation. Some implementation typecheck and reject invalid values. 2017-10-26T22:20:57Z mfiano: emaczen: That is correct 2017-10-26T22:24:57Z aeth: pjb: it seems like CCL and ECL don't mind fixnum, but do mind (or null kons), with ccl not checking the constructor (but checking the setf) and ecl checing the constructor (but not checking the setf). 2017-10-26T22:25:11Z emaczen: I'll give zpng a shot 2017-10-26T22:25:32Z aeth: pjb: I might be able to find a hack that will at least work on SBCL, CCL, and ECL. That is my goal. That way typechecking is done once, on creation of the pseudo-list. 2017-10-26T22:25:37Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:26:13Z aeth: I *could* even just write new functions and have #+foo-implementation check-types 2017-10-26T22:29:01Z karswell_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:30:55Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:32:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:33:04Z nonlinear joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:33:45Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T22:33:58Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:34:13Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:35:18Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.3.1) 2017-10-26T22:42:28Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:42:34Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-10-26T22:44:09Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:45:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:45:52Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:46:27Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:46:37Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:46:37Z jrm2 is now known as jrm 2017-10-26T22:46:54Z pjb: aeth: you can define your own "constructor": (defstruct (s (:constructor %make-s)) f) (defun make-s (&key f) (check-type f (or null s)) (%make-s :f f)) 2017-10-26T22:47:24Z aeth: pjb: I've done that before for copy-foo, to make a deep copy; makes sense that it also works for constructors 2017-10-26T22:47:27Z pjb: and similarly for setters. 2017-10-26T22:47:35Z pjb: using (:conc-name %s-) 2017-10-26T22:48:01Z pjb: Then you realize that you're writing all the methods around your object yourself, you could as well use defclass rather than defstruct… 2017-10-26T22:48:11Z aeth: Essentially, I'm not trusting user input and doing lots of type checking on the things passed in, after which I don't care as much. 2017-10-26T22:48:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:48:51Z aeth: pjb: My personal rule of thumb is structs for simple + typed, classes for the rest 2017-10-26T22:48:55Z aeth: well, CLOSS classes 2017-10-26T22:48:59Z aeth: s/CLOSS/CLOS/ 2017-10-26T22:49:27Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:49:36Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:50:00Z aeth: So e.g. window should be a class, settings passed into the window a struct since they're simple+typed (and not simple enough to be an array). 2017-10-26T22:51:16Z iqubic: What are we taling about here? 2017-10-26T22:51:30Z emaczen: does zpng decode? 2017-10-26T22:51:56Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-26T22:52:23Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:52:27Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-26T22:53:14Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-26T22:53:44Z aeth: iqubic: I'm just trying to be creative with checking user input so the user doesn't get runtime errors at some random point in the execution of the program. 2017-10-26T22:54:50Z iqubic: Ah, I see. 2017-10-26T22:55:02Z iqubic: Just validate the user's input when you recieve it. 2017-10-26T22:55:28Z pjb: aeth: well defstruct is not the tool to check user input. For that, you can use check-type, which is interactive with the restarts… 2017-10-26T22:55:35Z aeth: iqubic: I do. Twice, actually. Once when creating the data structure to pass in, once when starting since I can't trust the user to have not modified it since then. 2017-10-26T22:56:03Z aeth: If I replace a built-in list with a list that can only hold items of one type, though, I reduce the number of iterations over that list. 2017-10-26T22:56:23Z pjb: try: (defun get-user-age () (let (age) (check-type age fixnum) age)) (get-user-age) 2017-10-26T22:56:33Z iqubic: aeth: What kind of input are we taking? 2017-10-26T22:56:50Z iqubic: aeth: Do homogeneous list exist in lisp? 2017-10-26T22:57:13Z pjb: nope. 2017-10-26T22:57:54Z aeth: iqubic: At the moment I do checks with this: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/c1f6119e269b1bbba5b5cf1d18baf4fc63402a35/data/shader.lisp#L105-195 2017-10-26T22:58:26Z pjb: iqubic: alternative answer: yes, only homogeneous list exist in lisp, but only of type T. 2017-10-26T22:58:38Z aeth: iqubic: Technically, you can just define your own typed cons cells. Overkill for this particular use case, but a thought experiment and something that might be useful for some other data passed in 2017-10-26T22:58:58Z aeth: You wouldn't be able to use built-in sequence functions on them, though, at least not portably. 2017-10-26T22:59:33Z pjb: iqubic: homogeneous lists are idiotic, it's a notion only for statically typed languages, because they're idiotic. 2017-10-26T23:00:01Z aeth: Lists are just conses, so you could easily make conses where the car must hold items and the cdr must hold that cons or null (or some list terminator). Or if you wanted trees, you could make both the car and cdr able to hold the item or the cons or null, etc. 2017-10-26T23:00:53Z aeth: pjb: On the other hand, Lisp does have a built-in similar notion for arrays, although it's not fully developed and not required. Most Lisps will support specialized arrays for single-float, double-float, and reasonable integer sizes, though. 2017-10-26T23:01:06Z pjb: iqubic: that said, in lisp arrays can be specialized, as a storage optimization. 2017-10-26T23:01:28Z pjb: cf upgraded-array-element-type 2017-10-26T23:02:11Z aeth: iqubic: The more important omision is hash tables that can only hold one type and/or can only have a key of one type. Lists and trees are trivial (and cons cells are insufficient for things like doubly linked lists or tree nodes that reference their parent anyway) 2017-10-26T23:02:23Z pjb: wrong. 2017-10-26T23:02:35Z pjb: all hash-table take T as keys and values. 2017-10-26T23:02:42Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-26T23:03:25Z aeth: pjb: And this is a flaw for data that is written rarely and read frequently. The lack of the ability to mark things as immutable is another flaw, for things written once and read frequently. Types shine here because you type-check once. 2017-10-26T23:03:27Z pjb: (let ((h (make-hash-table :test 'eql)) (s "foo")) (setf (gethash s h) 'foo (gethash 42 h) 33) (list (gethash s h) (gethash 42 h))) #| --> (foo 33) |# 2017-10-26T23:03:37Z iqubic: pjb: Did you just call haskell idiotic? 2017-10-26T23:03:54Z pjb: iqubic: yes, basically. 2017-10-26T23:05:08Z aeth: pjb: If there was a new standard to CL, there would almost certainly be more optional typing imo. Dynamic languages are moving in this direction. It's incredible that the CL specification had the foresight that optional types is already mostly in the language. 2017-10-26T23:05:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-26T23:05:50Z aeth: e.g. it could speed up anything generic if it already knew that something is of some specific type (and SBCL does this for e.g. arithmetic at the very least) 2017-10-26T23:05:53Z pjb: There are people designing typed lambda-calculus and typed lisps or schemes. Most of them fail lamentably, and the others are not useful. 2017-10-26T23:06:03Z _death: luckily, current fashion doesn't affect CL 2017-10-26T23:06:23Z aeth: pjb: The CL way is the right way, to embrace every paradigm. The typed Lisps and Schemes are purist languages, like Haskell. 2017-10-26T23:06:41Z aeth: Every paradigm exists for a reason, some problems are easy to express one way and hard to express another way. 2017-10-26T23:06:51Z aeth: Doing it all in one langauge has many advantages. 2017-10-26T23:07:06Z aeth: at least, that's my opinion 2017-10-26T23:07:37Z emaczen: I didn't really like clojure because it is very inflexible imo. 2017-10-26T23:07:46Z aeth: You can't have a full CL on the GPU, though, so I suppose there needs to be two languages, a shader language and a CPU language. But that's really it. 2017-10-26T23:08:24Z aeth: (Unless new hardware niches arise) 2017-10-26T23:08:57Z pjb: notice that you send source code ot the nvidia GPU, and the GPU compiles it itself… 2017-10-26T23:09:28Z aeth: Not anymore. Vulkan requires and OpenGL 4.6 permits you to use your own shader compiler to the intermediate SPIR-V form. 2017-10-26T23:09:34Z pjb: CL doesn't prevent global analysis and statically typed-like optimizations, as sbcl performances demonstrate. This could be done as well on the GPU. 2017-10-26T23:09:57Z pjb: The GPU can define GPU specific native data types as extensions to CL (such extensions are allowed by the CL standard). 2017-10-26T23:10:59Z aeth: pjb: What you'd probably wind up with is an extended subset of CL on the GPU, subset because some things don't really work on the GPU and extended because the GPU requires some extensions. 2017-10-26T23:12:53Z pjb: But one important point here is more like this: the cost of developping static tools for CL is of the order of a CL compiler. But the paying customers would be much less than the paying customers for a CL compiler. So take for example, the development cost of Allegro CL (hundreds of man.year), and perhaps $4000/copy; you'd have to sell the tool $40000/copy. And the only thing it does, is to find bugs that are not bugs, ie. bugs 2017-10-26T23:12:53Z pjb: occurs once every 100 years. When such a bug occur, you can easily pay a developer with the $40000 spared to debug it! And this is the economic optimization that iscurrently made, this is teh reason why there are no global analysis tools for lisp, be it type analysis, tree shakers, etc. 2017-10-26T23:13:31Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-26T23:13:40Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-26T23:14:17Z pjb: The GPU case is a special case, where the founder of the GPU is incentivized to develop the compiler. The choice of a simple C-like language is an obvious economic optimization on the part of the founder: less cost for the founder, more cost for the customers who don't realize it when the choose to buy the GPU. 2017-10-26T23:15:14Z aeth: I think it's a C-like language because at the time it was invented, game engines were transitioning from C to C++ (and they're still almost entirely in C++, with some scripting language bolted on) 2017-10-26T23:18:41Z cibermanteca is now known as cyberlard 2017-10-26T23:22:01Z borei1 joined #lisp 2017-10-26T23:22:09Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T23:22:24Z borei1: hi all 2017-10-26T23:22:50Z borei1: seems like im hitting the wall, need some advise 2017-10-26T23:23:21Z borei1: i was troubleshooting performance issue passing data from lisp to C 2017-10-26T23:23:51Z borei1: data is vertices attributes passed to GL 2017-10-26T23:24:08Z borei1: i noticed that that operation is extreamly slow 2017-10-26T23:25:04Z aeth: borei1: ECL? 2017-10-26T23:25:11Z borei1: SBCL 2017-10-26T23:25:51Z aeth: oh, in ECL the issue performance issue is fixed with (setf cffi::*cffi-ecl-method* :c/c++) 2017-10-26T23:25:57Z aeth: I don't get any performance issues in SBCL or CCL 2017-10-26T23:26:16Z borei1: initially i thought that array initialization is slow (there is loop on all items) 2017-10-26T23:27:12Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-10-26T23:27:16Z borei1: then i narrowed down that (foreign-alloc type :count count :initial-contents initial-contents) call is very slow 2017-10-26T23:27:33Z aeth: Are you allocating every frame? 2017-10-26T23:27:39Z borei1: no no 2017-10-26T23:27:58Z borei1: im allocating vertex data for shader 2017-10-26T23:28:01Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T23:28:26Z borei1: there are 10000 3D vertex, so 30k float numbers 2017-10-26T23:28:43Z borei1: (foreign-alloc type :count count :initial-contents initial-contents) takes approx 0.6 second 2017-10-26T23:29:59Z borei1: i just don't know where i can improve performance 2017-10-26T23:30:31Z borei1: 10k vertices - it's just one object im my rendering scene 2017-10-26T23:30:59Z borei1: i can ~100 of them, so it will be ~1 minute to load all data to shader(s) 2017-10-26T23:31:12Z borei1: rendering it self after that is normal 2017-10-26T23:31:31Z borei1: there is no lisp<-->C data exchange 2017-10-26T23:31:34Z _death: use static-vectors? 2017-10-26T23:31:35Z stnutt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T23:31:56Z pjb: this will involve accessing and copying 30k float numbers. 2017-10-26T23:32:09Z pjb: Don't use foreign stuff. It'll be faster to do it in lisp! 2017-10-26T23:32:19Z borei1: _death: no i don't use static-vectors 2017-10-26T23:32:25Z pjb: converting and copying buffers between lisp and C is killing you. 2017-10-26T23:32:33Z borei1: pjb: yes 2017-10-26T23:32:48Z borei1: but how i can pass data from lisp to openGL ???? 2017-10-26T23:33:29Z _death: borei1: with it you can work with a specialized array and pass a pointer to it to the C function 2017-10-26T23:33:31Z borei1: opengl finctions are expecting gl-array(s) which actually foreign pointers 2017-10-26T23:34:25Z borei1: _death: problem is i need to "load data" to C pointer 2017-10-26T23:34:44Z borei1: but it's very VERY slow 2017-10-26T23:36:27Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-26T23:36:37Z borei1: is it dead end and i need to re-arch my program or there is some feature that i don't know ? 2017-10-26T23:37:33Z borei1: everything was so good because all top level logic, user interruction and computational part are done in lisp 2017-10-26T23:38:08Z borei1: some overhead talking to opengl was ok 2017-10-26T23:38:19Z borei1: but passing data to it - killing 2017-10-26T23:40:03Z mfiano: Use indexed buffers. You don't need 30k numbers for 10k triangles. 2017-10-26T23:40:31Z borei1: it's already indexed 2017-10-26T23:40:35Z mfiano: Also, #lispgames has solved lots of these problems. Perhaps idle in there. 2017-10-26T23:40:44Z borei1: i have mesh 100x100 3d vectors 2017-10-26T23:41:00Z mfiano: Then you don't have 30k floats 2017-10-26T23:41:17Z borei1: ???? 2017-10-26T23:41:46Z borei1: mesh is giving me exactly 30k floats 2017-10-26T23:41:57Z mfiano: It would help to know exactly what you are doing, what GL API's you are using, and how often you are doing it. 2017-10-26T23:42:55Z borei1: ok, i'll give you example 2017-10-26T23:43:06Z borei1: im rendering sphere 2017-10-26T23:43:33Z borei1: 100 points in phi direction, 100 points in theta direction 2017-10-26T23:44:02Z borei1: transformation is giving me 100x100 vectors or 30k floats 2017-10-26T23:44:12Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-26T23:44:34Z mfiano: If it's just a sphere, why do you need to update 30k floats constantly? Why can't the geometry shader stage generate this from a position in space and a radius? 2017-10-26T23:44:38Z borei1: that is a bit less then 60k triangles 2017-10-26T23:44:54Z borei1: of cause i indexed all floats 2017-10-26T23:44:54Z aeth: that is a large sphere 2017-10-26T23:45:03Z borei1: yes it's big one 2017-10-26T23:45:26Z mfiano: Then have the shader generate it. Spheres compress to very little information required 2017-10-26T23:45:26Z aeth: I think generally you want to not have that much in the geometry and fake a lot of it with textures 2017-10-26T23:46:14Z borei1: yes, but i'll hit the same problem later 2017-10-26T23:46:40Z QualityAddict quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-26T23:46:43Z borei1: when it will not be sphere which is pretty much simpliest parametric surface 2017-10-26T23:47:31Z borei1: in that case i'll not be able to do any type of "compression" it will just huge set of float data 2017-10-26T23:47:56Z mfiano: and why are you changing all 30k floats? 2017-10-26T23:48:04Z _death: borei1: I don't understand your reply. if you foreign-alloc, then static-vectors should do.. if you don't, I think it may possible to create an array header for it 2017-10-26T23:48:13Z borei1: example - equi-potential surface in molecules 2017-10-26T23:49:04Z borei1: _death: i didn't get your idea how static-vector can be applicable 2017-10-26T23:49:36Z borei1: foreign-alloc is taking type, size and initial values (which is lisp list) 2017-10-26T23:50:16Z borei1: and it loads initial values to freshly allocated memory 2017-10-26T23:50:41Z mfiano: A buffer exists so you don't have to create it on the cpu and resend it! 2017-10-26T23:50:55Z mfiano: Just use glBufferData or glBufferSubData 2017-10-26T23:51:23Z borei1: data need to be passed to glBufferData 2017-10-26T23:51:46Z borei1: it's (lisp list) ----> (C array) operation 2017-10-26T23:52:00Z _death: borei1: the idea is that you don't work with lists anymore, but with the specialized static vector you create.. then you can use static-vector-pointer to get a pointer to the data that you can pass on 2017-10-26T23:52:05Z mfiano: Are you doing soft body physics or something? You may need to reconsider your hardware if that's the case 2017-10-26T23:53:08Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-26T23:54:15Z borei1: mfiano: no, not softbody, quantum mech 2017-10-26T23:54:40Z aeth: definitely don't use lists for that 2017-10-26T23:54:42Z mfiano: I think you'll want to use something like 3bgl-shader then, and do you calculations ON the gpu 2017-10-26T23:55:01Z borei1: https://pastebin.com/zUVCSqt0 - example 2017-10-26T23:55:25Z borei1: i did modify gl:alloc-gl-array a bit to pass :initial-contents vertices 2017-10-26T23:56:13Z aeth: Even if OpenGL was native CL for a native CL OS, you shouldn't use lists for something like... Specialized arrays would be the way to go. 2017-10-26T23:56:53Z borei1: hmmm, that is dark area for me for now 2017-10-26T23:57:03Z borei1: can you drop simple example 2017-10-26T23:57:21Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-26T23:57:22Z Bike: you know what :initial-contents is but not how to use lisp vectors? 2017-10-26T23:57:35Z Bike: to specialize it all you do is pass :element-type whatever to make-array 2017-10-26T23:57:52Z borei1: i didn't use arrays yet :-( 2017-10-26T23:57:59Z aeth: 2.2.4. https://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html 2017-10-26T23:58:13Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-26T23:58:17Z borei1: i found that lists are very convinient 2017-10-26T23:58:20Z Bike: (make-array 7 :element-type 'double-float) makes a blank array of seven elements of double floats 2017-10-26T23:58:23Z Bike: access it with aref 2017-10-26T23:58:27Z aeth: (Last time I linked to that, someone literally was doing matrices, so it was literally the example from Worse is Better.) 2017-10-26T23:59:16Z aeth: borei1: Lists are convenient, but unlike Scheme, in CL you have almost everything available to arrays that you do for lists so it's almost as convenient. (And for everything else, there's trivial macros.) 2017-10-26T23:59:33Z aeth: Lists + arrays as sequences is a really great thing CL does. 2017-10-27T00:00:09Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:00:29Z mfiano: Using lists for this is a huge mistake. 2017-10-27T00:01:09Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:01:34Z borei1: having specialized array (single-float) in my case will not improve performance in terms of loading data to C array, but it will imporve performance to access data - is it correct statement ? 2017-10-27T00:01:49Z aeth: It actually might improve your performance in the copy 2017-10-27T00:01:53Z Bike: to load data into the C array it has to be read out of your sequence 2017-10-27T00:02:05Z Bike: so, no, it should help there too 2017-10-27T00:02:18Z borei1: aha 2017-10-27T00:02:19Z borei1: ok 2017-10-27T00:02:24Z borei1: i have direction now 2017-10-27T00:02:43Z borei1: seems like changes are simple 2017-10-27T00:03:28Z mercourisj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T00:03:58Z borei1: erherheh, need to run - pyhton is calling (hate it).Thanks a lot for discussion ! 2017-10-27T00:07:57Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T00:13:05Z emaczen: how long should I sleep for in a (loop while t ...)? 2017-10-27T00:13:24Z Bike: uh, context? 2017-10-27T00:13:37Z Bike: also, you don't need the while 2017-10-27T00:13:37Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:14:05Z pjb: (loop) ; why do you want to sleep? 2017-10-27T00:14:07Z emaczen: I have two of these forms one in the server and one in the client. The context is sending images through a socket. 2017-10-27T00:14:28Z pjb: Then you should use write-sequence and read-sequence, not sleep. 2017-10-27T00:14:48Z emaczen: I did I'll remove sleep then 2017-10-27T00:15:08Z emaczen: my client computer is lagging a little bit... 2017-10-27T00:15:30Z pjb: On the other hand, you may want to use timeouts and non-blocking I/O if there are chances for intempestive disconnections and other network problems. 2017-10-27T00:16:20Z emaczen: intempestive? 2017-10-27T00:16:43Z pjb: untimely 2017-10-27T00:18:14Z _death: or use something more high-level than sockets 2017-10-27T00:19:22Z emaczen: pjb: what exactly are timeouts? 2017-10-27T00:19:40Z pjb: Things that didn't occur after a given time. 2017-10-27T00:20:28Z emaczen: Yeah, I need to do something else. My image stream seems to start out pretty close to real time, then it starts lagging... 2017-10-27T00:21:22Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-27T00:23:18Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:23:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T00:23:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:24:46Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:30:11Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:31:21Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-27T00:32:28Z mwsb is now known as chu 2017-10-27T00:32:43Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T00:35:41Z hifitim joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:37:35Z hifitim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T00:37:58Z hifitim joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:38:36Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-27T00:40:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:41:10Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-27T00:43:06Z mfiano: Where in the HyperSpec does it mention the default test function for FIND, ASSOC, etc? 2017-10-27T00:43:52Z emaczen: pjb: Is that because data will still be buffered and hence the lag? 2017-10-27T00:44:22Z emaczen: mfiano: isn't it #'eq? 2017-10-27T00:44:25Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:44:43Z Bike: it is eql 2017-10-27T00:44:43Z _death: clhs 17.2 2017-10-27T00:44:44Z specbot: Rules about Test Functions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_b.htm 2017-10-27T00:45:10Z mfiano: Yeah, it's EQL, but I wanted the relevant passage. Thanks! 2017-10-27T00:46:27Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T00:55:50Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-27T00:58:21Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:04:54Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-27T01:10:32Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T01:11:44Z pjb: emaczen: no, because we're using a messy physical universe, instead of maths. 2017-10-27T01:12:05Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-27T01:12:13Z pjb: emaczen: what happens if the cat trips on the power wire of the sender in the middle of sending your sequence? 2017-10-27T01:15:48Z hifitim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T01:18:32Z pjb: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gChnKcARrIY/hqdefault.jpg 2017-10-27T01:22:41Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T01:25:00Z hifitim joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:27:03Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T01:28:06Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:29:36Z borei1: here we go !!! 2017-10-27T01:29:50Z borei1: Evaluation took: 2017-10-27T01:29:50Z borei1: 0.129 seconds of real time 2017-10-27T01:29:50Z borei1: 0.108701 seconds of total run time (0.101734 user, 0.006967 system) 2017-10-27T01:29:50Z borei1: 84.50% CPU 2017-10-27T01:29:50Z borei1: 484 lambdas converted 2017-10-27T01:29:50Z borei1: 372,718,901 processor cycles 2017-10-27T01:29:51Z borei1: 18,660,096 bytes consed 2017-10-27T01:29:54Z borei1: sorry for spam 2017-10-27T01:30:32Z borei1: :-) ;-) 2017-10-27T01:30:39Z borei1: thanks a lot again !! 2017-10-27T01:30:40Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:33:47Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T01:34:56Z aeth: If I had to write a new Lisp in 2017 it would go something like: specialized/unspecialized, mutable/immutable alternatives for each sequence (and hash table, and multi-dimensional array, etc., so really "indexible thing", rather than "sequence") 2017-10-27T01:36:38Z Zhivago: Well, they should probably be sequenceable, which is doesn't require indexability. 2017-10-27T01:36:41Z aeth: With the further qualification of singly/doubly linked nodes for lists/trees (car, cdr, cir or something, since 'd' stands for 'decrement' and 'i' would stand for 'increment'.) 2017-10-27T01:37:01Z Zhivago: I'd also recommend making array a sub-type of vector. 2017-10-27T01:37:40Z Zhivago: Do you really have sufficient use for doubly-linked lists? 2017-10-27T01:38:05Z aeth: Zhivago: doubly-linked lists, not particularly useful. doubly-linked cons cells in trees, very useful for many tree algorithms 2017-10-27T01:38:07Z Zhivago: And would turning a cons from a pair into a triple help? 2017-10-27T01:38:30Z Zhivago: Sure, but at that point you'd not be using pairs, so car/cdr should probably not apply. 2017-10-27T01:38:50Z aeth: doubly-linked lists do have some uses, though 2017-10-27T01:38:58Z aeth: e.g. queues 2017-10-27T01:39:04Z Zhivago: I think that I'd personally probably get rid of car and cdr and their compositions altogether. 2017-10-27T01:40:06Z Zhivago: Back in the dark ages having caddadr was probably significantly faster, but I wouldn't expect it to be so today. 2017-10-27T01:40:41Z Zhivago: I'd keep head and tail for recursive decomposition. 2017-10-27T01:43:01Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-27T01:43:30Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:45:53Z Zhivago: I think I'd also invest in transparent proxies to support things like immutable or mutable views on things. 2017-10-27T01:46:39Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:47:55Z aeth: If I was going the Lisp route (rather than the Scheme route), I would essentially just make a superset of CL. Or, at the very least, still permit essentially importing cl as (:use #:cl) 2017-10-27T01:48:55Z aeth: It would essentially just be a series of performance improvements on top of CL, mainly by defining more built-ins and giving the compiler and macros more information. 2017-10-27T01:49:31Z aeth: But not incompatible because then it's just yet another language with 0 libraries. 2017-10-27T01:50:00Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:50:27Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-27T01:52:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T01:53:15Z aeth: If you're making a Lisp-like language you'd either need compatibility with Common Lisp libraries or portable r5rs/r7rs Scheme libraries, at least one-way compatibility. (Alternatively, compatibility with another language.) The library-maximizing way to make a Lisp would probably be to make a CL-compatible Lisp with extensions. 2017-10-27T01:54:41Z Zhivago: Or avoid limiting yourself to CL/Schema libraries. 2017-10-27T01:54:43Z aeth: The ideal way to work would be if it could work on all Common Lisp implementations, just not as efficiently. Ignorable types like in specialized arrays and function type declarations work this way. It probably can't be done with everything, though. 2017-10-27T01:56:18Z aeth: Things like pure functions could be implemented through macros on top of declare, which other implementations could ignore, though. 2017-10-27T01:57:27Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T01:58:48Z hifitim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T01:59:53Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:00:49Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:07:37Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:13:34Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-27T02:14:57Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T02:16:38Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:23:39Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:31:23Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T02:36:33Z toy joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:37:31Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T02:38:27Z ahungry joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:38:57Z basket quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T02:39:12Z Trystam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:39:29Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T02:41:37Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T02:42:06Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2017-10-27T02:43:39Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T02:46:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:51:44Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:53:42Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:57:08Z iqubic_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T02:57:15Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T02:57:18Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-27T02:59:18Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-27T03:00:42Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-27T03:03:10Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-27T03:06:45Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-27T03:07:28Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T03:12:22Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T03:20:41Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-27T03:26:56Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-27T03:27:12Z nonlinear left #lisp 2017-10-27T03:27:23Z lambdice: hi folks 2017-10-27T03:27:34Z beach: Hello lambdice. 2017-10-27T03:28:06Z lambdice: beach: hey! 2017-10-27T03:28:35Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T03:28:50Z lambdice: do you know why there is not good "newbee" tutorial about ecl on internet? 2017-10-27T03:29:05Z lambdice: i found the user manual.. but it is so cryptic for me 2017-10-27T03:29:35Z beach: My guess is that nobody wrote it. 2017-10-27T03:30:08Z lambdice: i just want to use ecl as i would use lua in my C code, but seems really hard to find a good way to start it 2017-10-27T03:30:12Z lambdice: beach: indeed 2017-10-27T03:31:41Z whoman: ah, well 2017-10-27T03:32:36Z whoman: like this? https://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/advanced-c-lisp/embedding-lisp-in-cplusplus-a-recipe/ 2017-10-27T03:32:36Z whoman: 2017-10-27T03:33:00Z whoman: i dont think it should be any more complex than lua from C 2017-10-27T03:33:06Z lambdice: whoman: yeah!! love this one 2017-10-27T03:34:03Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-27T03:41:29Z beach: lambdice: Here is what I suggest. You spend the extra time, perhaps with help from jackdaniel, to decipher the manual so that you can understand it. Then you write down your experience in a "newbee" tutorial about ECL and put it on the internet. That way other people in your situation will benefit. I could help you with the proofreading, for instance. 2017-10-27T03:42:38Z lambdice: beach: indeed!! who is jackdaniel? and why him ? 2017-10-27T03:42:44Z lambdice: he is working with ecl too ? 2017-10-27T03:42:48Z beach: He is the ECL maintainer. 2017-10-27T03:42:52Z lambdice: oh! 2017-10-27T03:43:30Z beach: He would have unique knowledge about ECL, and he would be interested in seeing such a document. But he is way too busy to take that on as well. 2017-10-27T03:46:14Z lambdice: beach: this is a great idea, well my objective is scripting a C app with ecl. i will start smoothly 2017-10-27T03:47:19Z beach: Yes, I see. I personally prefer programming my entire applications in Common Lisp, but you are not the only one who seem to want to do it that way. Hence my suggestion. 2017-10-27T03:47:48Z lambdice: beach: i will dig on it and share you the finds and i will talk with jackdaniel also 2017-10-27T03:47:57Z beach: Great! 2017-10-27T03:48:24Z lambdice: beach: yeah particulary for game developpement we are stuck with lua actually, which is great, but well really want to use common lisp for it 2017-10-27T03:48:34Z beach: He is in UTC+2 (UTC+1, from next week), so it may be a bit early for him at this time. 2017-10-27T03:49:35Z beach: lambdice: I understand that there is a very active IRC channel named #lispgames. Are you aware of it? 2017-10-27T03:49:50Z lambdice: i am UTC+2 too but i dring coffee 2017-10-27T03:49:59Z QualityAddict quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T03:49:59Z beach: I am pretty sure there would be many people with good advice for you. 2017-10-27T03:50:31Z lambdice: thx i am on it now 2017-10-27T03:50:57Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T03:51:05Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T03:53:05Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T03:58:57Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:00:01Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-27T04:01:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:03:08Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-10-27T04:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:06:41Z fouric joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:07:44Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T04:08:57Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:12:27Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:18:12Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:18:36Z asarch: What does "FASL" mean? 2017-10-27T04:18:44Z beach: Fast Load 2017-10-27T04:18:54Z asarch: From SBCL? 2017-10-27T04:19:08Z beach: No, it goes way back. 2017-10-27T04:19:32Z asarch takes notes... 2017-10-27T04:19:33Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-27T04:19:52Z asarch: Thank you beach 2017-10-27T04:19:57Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2017-10-27T04:20:00Z beach: Anytime. 2017-10-27T04:20:26Z asarch: :-) 2017-10-27T04:21:41Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:22:00Z asarch quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T04:22:32Z beach: It is mentioned in this article: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/MIT/White-Program_Is_Data-1977-From_MACSYMA77.pdf 2017-10-27T04:22:56Z beach: Seems to be from 1977. 2017-10-27T04:25:48Z beach: FASL is from 1972 -- 1973 according to the article. 2017-10-27T04:26:52Z goreye joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:27:04Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:29:04Z Zhivago: I think that 'program is data' is probably more correctly 'source code is data'. 2017-10-27T04:29:55Z Zhivago: But that sounds much less controvertial. 2017-10-27T04:30:03Z whoman: what is a program ? 2017-10-27T04:30:47Z whoman: the source code back in the day were called programs. windows started calling binaries, programs, so,.... 2017-10-27T04:31:15Z trn joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:31:35Z Zhivago: Well, once you introduce compilation into the mix, the program you write is no-longer than program that you run. 2017-10-27T04:31:37Z whoman: (back in that day, also, was that the programs were interpreted as code (as data (as code ( .. 2017-10-27T04:31:44Z whoman: yeah 2017-10-27T04:31:51Z whoman: but, conventions, traditions perhaps .. 2017-10-27T04:32:51Z whoman: programming, idk, i dont use the term much myself; coding or data-entry =) 2017-10-27T04:33:22Z White_Flame: but with "programming" you get those nice brainwashing undertones 2017-10-27T04:33:47Z whoman: yeh; especially when it comes to making entertainment =) 2017-10-27T04:34:10Z whoman: entrainment 2017-10-27T04:34:31Z whoman: day-programs, television programs, uh meal programs 2017-10-27T04:35:07Z whoman: you are right White_Flame we have a lot of responsibility here eh 2017-10-27T04:35:27Z whoman: 'what is my function' just comes up in the current audio stream. great coincidences today ~ 2017-10-27T04:37:25Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:38:35Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:39:04Z pjb: Zhivago: when you have an interpreter, source code is program. 2017-10-27T04:39:20Z Zhivago: Certainly, but that's rarely the case today. 2017-10-27T04:39:39Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:39:39Z pjb: It doesn't really make a difference. 2017-10-27T04:44:17Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:44:18Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T04:45:01Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:46:20Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-27T04:50:32Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:50:36Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T04:51:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:51:43Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:51:44Z |3b|`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T04:58:40Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:00:21Z goreye quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T05:01:58Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-27T05:03:38Z brucem joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:06:04Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:08:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T05:11:36Z trn joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:11:52Z aeth: "...nice brainwashing undertones" <- my computer starts out free and idle and happy and then I program it to do what I want it to do? 2017-10-27T05:13:50Z takitus: That's taking the anthropomorphic metaphor to a whole new level. 2017-10-27T05:14:38Z aeth: well, (memory) free and (cpu) idle are just by definition, I just assume it's happy. 2017-10-27T05:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T05:21:33Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:21:33Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:24:39Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:29:17Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T05:33:35Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T05:34:10Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:42:31Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:45:32Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T05:47:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:48:04Z mikecheck joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:49:52Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:50:18Z mfiano: If I wanted to make a function alias or an otherwise very thin wrapper, would it be best to write a simple compiler macro, inline a wrapper function, or use symbol-function? I'm wondering which is better and has the least overhead. 2017-10-27T05:50:30Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-27T05:52:31Z Zhivago: It depends on how you wish to use it. 2017-10-27T05:52:40Z Zhivago: Do you wish #'my-alias to work naturally? 2017-10-27T05:52:48Z mfiano: Define naturally 2017-10-27T05:53:06Z Zhivago: As for functions defined via defun. 2017-10-27T05:53:14Z mfiano: Yes 2017-10-27T05:54:01Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T05:54:11Z Zhivago: Then macros will do not the job. 2017-10-27T05:54:33Z Zhivago: You could use symbol-function and declare, perhaps. 2017-10-27T05:54:45Z mfiano: I never messed with compiler macros, but a simple test had unexpected results. 2017-10-27T05:54:53Z Zhivago: But is just having this alias call the original normally really too expensive? 2017-10-27T05:55:05Z mfiano: As a side topic, can you tell me why this occurs: 2017-10-27T05:56:15Z mfiano: (define-compiler-macro test (i) `(alexandria:iota ,i)) ; Calling test with an argument works as expected, but the moment I call (test) with no arguments, it says the function is not defined, and I can not redefine the macro unless I restart my image. 2017-10-27T05:56:42Z Zhivago: Well, you didn't define a macro that fits that. 2017-10-27T05:57:31Z Zhivago: Try making the argument optional. 2017-10-27T05:58:53Z mfiano: My goal is to just rename a few functions in other packages, without the overhead of changing their signature...or any overhead if I can help it, for a time-sensitive application. 2017-10-27T05:59:10Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-27T05:59:13Z Zhivago: Why do you want to rename those functions? 2017-10-27T05:59:49Z mfiano: No real reason other than style convention for this project, and I also do not want to USE-PACKAGE, but want the new symbols local to my package. 2017-10-27T06:01:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T06:01:22Z Zhivago: Have you benchmarked the overhead of doing the obvious thing of having a local function which calls the original? 2017-10-27T06:02:53Z mfiano: Yes, and it was noticably slower 2017-10-27T06:03:11Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T06:03:33Z Zhivago: Is a normal macro insufficient for your use-cases? 2017-10-27T06:03:37Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T06:04:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:05:26Z pillton: mfiano: Even if marked inline? 2017-10-27T06:05:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:07:35Z mfiano: Hmm, a macro or inlining may be good enough. 2017-10-27T06:08:24Z mfiano: Thanks. I just don't have much of any experience doing any of these 3 methods and was curious. 2017-10-27T06:09:43Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T06:11:13Z borei1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T06:12:58Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:12:59Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T06:14:28Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:14:31Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:16:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T06:17:59Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:19:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T06:33:20Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:33:21Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T06:41:15Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T06:44:45Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:47:35Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T06:49:38Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T06:51:57Z angelo_ is now known as Trasformatore 2017-10-27T07:03:58Z SaganMan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T07:09:18Z viuuulentemente joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:13:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:19:53Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T07:21:21Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:25:35Z rann quit 2017-10-27T07:25:42Z viuuulentemente quit (Quit: viuuulentemente) 2017-10-27T07:25:53Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T07:26:01Z rann joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:26:07Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T07:29:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:29:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:29:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-27T07:29:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:32:29Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:33:00Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:35:28Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:37:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T07:54:27Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-10-27T07:56:50Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T07:58:39Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2017-10-27T08:02:15Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:03:06Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T08:03:29Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:09:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:09:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-27T08:09:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:15:42Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:19:39Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T08:20:22Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T08:20:32Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:30:25Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T08:35:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:36:03Z Ven is now known as Guest275 2017-10-27T08:38:10Z ak52 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-27T08:41:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:41:57Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-27T08:42:08Z Guest275 is now known as Ven`` 2017-10-27T08:43:15Z |3b|`` joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:43:39Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-10-27T08:43:46Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T08:56:05Z Ven`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T08:58:27Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T09:00:48Z uint: any idea what this sort of thing is supposed to do? 2017-10-27T09:00:51Z uint: (deftype struct-type () '(cons (eql struct))) 2017-10-27T09:01:05Z uint: the cons confuses me 2017-10-27T09:01:43Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:03:30Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T09:06:35Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:08:18Z ak52 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:09:04Z beach: clhs cons 2017-10-27T09:09:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm 2017-10-27T09:09:30Z beach: uint: Check the "system class" entry. 2017-10-27T09:10:59Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:11:00Z uint: hmm. thanks. 2017-10-27T09:11:14Z beach: The type describes all CONS cells with the symbol STRUCT in the CAR slot. 2017-10-27T09:11:20Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-27T09:11:57Z beach: (typep '(struct . 234) '(cons (eql struct))) => T 2017-10-27T09:12:16Z uint: Yeah, this is definitely starting to come together. 2017-10-27T09:13:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:13:58Z uint: Thank you! 2017-10-27T09:14:12Z Ven is now known as Guest35603 2017-10-27T09:14:40Z beach: Anytime. 2017-10-27T09:15:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T09:16:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:16:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-27T09:16:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:17:04Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:17:28Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:19:57Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T09:21:59Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:27:36Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:35:59Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:36:17Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T09:36:35Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T09:40:08Z cmatei joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:40:11Z Guest35603 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T09:40:51Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:45:09Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:46:20Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:49:05Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:51:24Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:51:50Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-10-27T09:51:55Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I don't recognize your nick. 2017-10-27T10:52:59Z antoszka: freenote: Hi! 2017-10-27T10:53:11Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-10-27T10:53:21Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T10:54:19Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T10:54:23Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-27T10:54:41Z ak52 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T10:54:54Z freenote: I am not a new 2017-10-27T10:55:11Z freenote: But i don't want to anyone know me 2017-10-27T10:55:29Z freenote: so i changed my nick whenever i loggin 2017-10-27T10:55:32Z Shinmera: Sounds suspicious 2017-10-27T10:55:34Z antoszka: OK, we do not know you. 2017-10-27T10:56:04Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T10:57:06Z antoszka: But we know you're in Hanoi. 2017-10-27T11:00:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:02:36Z beach: freenote: Em là ngôi Việt Nam khong? 2017-10-27T11:03:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T11:04:02Z beach: Oops, my Vietnamese is a bit rusty. 2017-10-27T11:04:57Z beach: Oh, well. 2017-10-27T11:06:17Z shka: i'm looking for APL-like language embedded in common lisp 2017-10-27T11:06:22Z shka: hello, btw 2017-10-27T11:12:28Z nika_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T11:13:12Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:17:19Z nika_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T11:21:56Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:25:18Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-27T11:27:07Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:28:11Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T11:28:12Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-10-27T11:37:57Z mingus` is now known as mingus 2017-10-27T11:38:26Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T11:41:19Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T11:42:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:43:44Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:47:42Z freenote: oh shit! 2017-10-27T11:47:50Z freenote: your vietnamese is bull shit! 2017-10-27T11:47:57Z freenote: tôi là người việt nam 2017-10-27T11:48:03Z easye: nam 2017-10-27T11:50:05Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:50:12Z freenote: who is know how to get money with common lisp? 2017-10-27T11:50:23Z freenote: it's mean programming with common lisp 2017-10-27T11:50:33Z jmercouris: freenote: what? what is your question? 2017-10-27T11:50:50Z easye makes coin with Common Lisp. 2017-10-27T11:51:07Z freenote: make money 2017-10-27T11:51:15Z freenote: money to live 2017-10-27T11:51:20Z freenote: ok? 2017-10-27T11:51:50Z Shinmera: Same as with anything else. You sell stuff to people who want stuff. 2017-10-27T11:51:51Z easye: I sell the coin for fiat when I need to. 2017-10-27T11:51:55Z freenote: i wanna a job to make money to live 2017-10-27T11:51:57Z Shinmera: Money can be exchanged for goods and services 2017-10-27T11:52:51Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:52:56Z freenote: ok how i get money by programming with common lisp 2017-10-27T11:52:57Z freenote: ? 2017-10-27T11:53:11Z antoszka: freenote: https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ <- it's not exactly up-to-date, but it's a good start. 2017-10-27T11:53:12Z easye: freenote: check out the Lisp Guild 2017-10-27T11:53:16Z Shinmera: You make a thing with lisp that someone wants and then you sell it to them for money 2017-10-27T11:53:25Z antoszka: freenote: there's also the "pro" mailing list. 2017-10-27T11:54:10Z freenote: we have a guild? 2017-10-27T11:54:31Z easye: And until you make money, you share the things that you've built with others, hopefully getting them into Quicklisp. 2017-10-27T11:55:01Z mercourisj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:55:05Z easye: minion: lisp guild ? 2017-10-27T11:55:05Z minion: i like lisp... i'm written in it 2017-10-27T11:55:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T11:55:35Z freenote: what lisp guild buddy? 2017-10-27T11:55:37Z mercourisj left #lisp 2017-10-27T11:55:42Z easye: minion: lisp guild is https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1 2017-10-27T11:55:42Z minion: i like lisp... i'm written in it 2017-10-27T11:55:57Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-27T11:56:07Z jmercouris: is this a serious conversation? 2017-10-27T11:56:18Z easye is being bated. 2017-10-27T11:56:29Z jmercouris: baited* 2017-10-27T11:56:36Z jmercouris: beach: How did you know he was Vietnamese? 2017-10-27T11:56:41Z easye: abated 2017-10-27T11:56:58Z freenote: yes, how did you know i am in vietnamese? 2017-10-27T11:57:26Z freenote: but your vietnamese is shit! 2017-10-27T11:57:28Z freenote: :))) 2017-10-27T11:59:26Z easye: Maybe more like being bot-ted. 2017-10-27T12:01:00Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T12:01:00Z edwrd joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:01:55Z jackdaniel: I'm a bit sceptical about assertion, that freenote is not new here 2017-10-27T12:02:49Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: who is he that everyone seems to know him? 2017-10-27T12:03:08Z whoman: paranoia ? 2017-10-27T12:03:31Z jmercouris: I also remember about three weeks ago someone coming into the channel and praising VI on end, is it the same guy? 2017-10-27T12:03:33Z jackdaniel: I doubt anyone knows him. location is rather easy to acquire given his whois entry 2017-10-27T12:04:07Z jackdaniel: s/acquire/guess/ 2017-10-27T12:04:27Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Then again if you look at my whois, you'd think i'm in NL 2017-10-27T12:04:33Z jmercouris: is it because he is using the webchat or something? 2017-10-27T12:05:00Z jackdaniel: I don't know and I'm not particularily interested in investigating :) 2017-10-27T12:05:14Z jmercouris: Yeah, it's a waste of time you're right 2017-10-27T12:07:53Z jmercouris: Shinmera: are you there? 2017-10-27T12:08:44Z Shinmera: I wrote something like ten minutes ago. Yes. 2017-10-27T12:08:46Z Shinmera: What's up? 2017-10-27T12:09:15Z jmercouris: I'm just wondering what your deployment pipeline looks like for radiance 2017-10-27T12:09:25Z Shinmera: What do you mean? 2017-10-27T12:09:28Z jmercouris: do you have some sort of automatic provisioning system? 2017-10-27T12:09:41Z jmercouris: e.g. how do you deploy instances of your radiance webservers 2017-10-27T12:09:52Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T12:09:56Z jmercouris: are you manually SSH'ing into machines and spinning them up? 2017-10-27T12:10:13Z Shinmera: How else would you do it? 2017-10-27T12:10:23Z Shinmera: I mean, the setup is trivial due to https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-bootstrap 2017-10-27T12:10:23Z jmercouris: Well, there's many other ways 2017-10-27T12:10:37Z Shinmera: Oh? 2017-10-27T12:10:55Z jmercouris: I'm assuming you've heard of salt, ansible, puppet, chef? 2017-10-27T12:10:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T12:11:05Z Shinmera: Heard the names of, but never used. 2017-10-27T12:11:13Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:11:28Z jmercouris: Yeah, well they are pretty convenient, you can think of them as system definition files for complete operating systems 2017-10-27T12:11:56Z jmercouris: So you can make a definition of how you want a provisioned machine to look (e.g. a set -up machine), and it'll do whatever steps necessary to get the machine to that state 2017-10-27T12:12:24Z jmercouris: So you can have a profile that installs lisp, quicklisp, radiance, pulls your code from the repository, and starts the webserver, so that you can deploy as many instances as youw ant 2017-10-27T12:13:03Z jmercouris: The bootstrap is actually a really good first step towards that, you could use that in conjunction with one of these systems to deploy your software across many vms 2017-10-27T12:13:08Z Shinmera: Alright, well, typically the idea of Radiance is that you have only one instance for all of your applications. 2017-10-27T12:13:32Z jmercouris: What if you need multiple machines due to high load? 2017-10-27T12:13:59Z jmercouris: You'd have some sort of topology with all of the machines behind a load balancer 2017-10-27T12:14:00Z Shinmera: I've not thought about load balancing and distribution in any way, so I can't answer that to any capacity. 2017-10-27T12:15:49Z Shinmera: You'd probably have to implement your own versions of some interfaces (like user, session, and auth) if you need to distribute. 2017-10-27T12:17:02Z jmercouris: Oh definitely, for sure, I'm just thinking about how someone might use it in a real production environment 2017-10-27T12:17:20Z Shinmera: Well, I use it in production. I don't use it for high load, that's all. 2017-10-27T12:17:56Z jmercouris: I meant for commercial purposes 2017-10-27T12:18:02Z Shinmera: Sure. 2017-10-27T12:18:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-27T12:18:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:19:00Z Shinmera: Anyway, my own setup was: run the bootstrapper, clone the apps I want into the modules folder, and install a systemd service to manage the application. 2017-10-27T12:19:09Z Shinmera: *manage the radiance instance 2017-10-27T12:21:51Z jmercouris: hmm, sounds pretty straightforward, thanks 2017-10-27T12:22:48Z Shinmera: The service file is just this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/674#674 2017-10-27T12:24:10Z Shinmera: Oh, right, one step I forgot was to load the apps I want in the setup.lisp file that the bootstrapper creates. 2017-10-27T12:24:17Z jmercouris: Right, and you just have that directly accepting all requests right? You don't run nginx in front of it or anything? 2017-10-27T12:24:20Z ak52 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:24:46Z Shinmera: I run nginx in front because I have other apps that run on the same instance. 2017-10-27T12:24:53Z Shinmera: so I can proxy certain domains. 2017-10-27T12:25:03Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T12:28:48Z Shinmera: nginx in front is probably also a better idea to handle SSL 2017-10-27T12:29:02Z Shinmera: and to do caching 2017-10-27T12:29:13Z GreaseMonkey quit (K-Lined) 2017-10-27T12:29:13Z brandonz quit (K-Lined) 2017-10-27T12:30:13Z brandonz joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:30:36Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:35:10Z jmercouris: Yeah, nginx will always cache faster 2017-10-27T12:36:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-27T12:39:03Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:41:04Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-27T12:42:42Z freenote left #lisp 2017-10-27T12:43:26Z stno joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:44:40Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:44:52Z stno: have anyone passed to all euler's problems? 2017-10-27T12:46:46Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:46:48Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:47:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T12:48:51Z dec0n_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:51:13Z karswell_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T12:51:43Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T12:52:09Z karswell_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:53:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T12:54:51Z stno: anyone are there? 2017-10-27T12:54:57Z beach: Plenty. 2017-10-27T12:55:14Z stno: have anyone passed to all euler's problems? 2017-10-27T12:55:24Z beach: You already asked that. 2017-10-27T12:55:39Z beach: If someone did, I am sure they would answer you. 2017-10-27T12:58:03Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:58:45Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-27T12:59:30Z stno quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-27T13:00:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T13:01:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:04:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:05:06Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:06:18Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-27T13:06:36Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:08:32Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:09:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T13:09:01Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T13:14:36Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:17:45Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:21:16Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:23:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:27:56Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T13:29:30Z mikecheck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T13:29:40Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:32:29Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T13:32:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:33:08Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:33:15Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-27T13:33:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:35:27Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T13:36:41Z jmercouris: beach: What's your secret to having such a high level of patience? 2017-10-27T13:37:40Z beach: I didn't realize I had that. 2017-10-27T13:38:10Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-27T13:38:36Z jmercouris: I've never seen you blown up at an inane question, though maybe I just can't recognize when you're angry or not 2017-10-27T13:39:10Z beach: I do get angry, but I realized a long time ago that there was no point in showing it. 2017-10-27T13:39:25Z jmercouris: If there's no point in showing your anger, what's the point in having it? 2017-10-27T13:39:36Z beach: That is much harder to control. 2017-10-27T13:39:58Z jmercouris: Interesting, I'm the other way around 2017-10-27T13:41:30Z beach: Human psychology is both interesting and weird. See this one for instance: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html 2017-10-27T13:43:17Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:45:37Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-27T13:49:39Z phoe_: beach: I'm 100% sure that I won't make it on Lambda Days' deadline with my paper. 2017-10-27T13:49:48Z beach: :( 2017-10-27T13:50:01Z phoe_: But this means that I already know what I want to speak about on ELS 2018! 2017-10-27T13:50:12Z beach: Good, good! 2017-10-27T13:50:39Z phoe_: It would be pretty funny if you responded with ":)" instead. (: 2017-10-27T13:51:16Z beach: It would especially have been impolite. 2017-10-27T13:51:21Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-27T13:52:53Z shka: always look at the bright side of life 2017-10-27T13:53:45Z phoe_: beach: I know, but I imagined the symmetry and giggled. 2017-10-27T14:00:19Z larsen: beach: weird. I'm sure I read that article in the past, but I now realize I remembered a *"specul[i]ar"* version of it: performance-oriented people can appreciate the process of constant improvement trough progressingly better performances; perfection-oriented people, aiming at perfection, are paralysed because they can't be perfect at first try. luckily I re-read it 2017-10-27T14:00:59Z larsen: *through, even 2017-10-27T14:01:27Z Shinmera: Joke's on you, I'm both paralysed and still do a lot. 2017-10-27T14:01:35Z jmercouris: beach: An interesting article 2017-10-27T14:01:55Z jmercouris: beach: What path would you reccomend for a perfection-oriented student learning lisp? 2017-10-27T14:02:32Z jmercouris: like if you had to design a "self-study" plan, what would it look like? 2017-10-27T14:02:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:04:10Z shka: jmercouris: how about doing stuff? 2017-10-27T14:04:33Z shka: no painter become good painter by just studying 2017-10-27T14:04:39Z shka: programming is a craft 2017-10-27T14:04:51Z jmercouris: While true, doing the right stuff is important 2017-10-27T14:05:08Z jmercouris: I could sit all day and make new CRUD applications using some web-framework, but I hardly feel like that constitutes progress 2017-10-27T14:05:15Z jmercouris: many programmers program for many years and retain mediocrity 2017-10-27T14:05:27Z jmercouris: despite thousands of hours programming 2017-10-27T14:05:45Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:06:15Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T14:06:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T14:06:58Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:06:58Z beach: jmercouris: Hard to say. Read PCL, then PAIP, then Object-Oriented programming in Common Lisp. 2017-10-27T14:07:44Z jmercouris: beach: What does PAIP stand for? 2017-10-27T14:07:56Z beach: minion: Please tell jmercouris about PAIP. 2017-10-27T14:07:56Z minion: jmercouris: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 2017-10-27T14:08:29Z foom2 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:10:08Z beach: jmercouris: Study some modern Common Lisp code making heavy use of CLOS. 2017-10-27T14:10:24Z Aritheanie quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-27T14:10:25Z jmercouris: What's a good codebase to look at 2017-10-27T14:10:35Z jmercouris: like what's the model codebase that you see and think "wow, I wish all code were this good"? 2017-10-27T14:10:49Z jmercouris: Also, this Peter Norvig guy seems to really know his stuff 2017-10-27T14:11:32Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T14:11:44Z beach: I am biased, but I recommend Cluffer: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer 2017-10-27T14:12:02Z Aritheanie joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:13:28Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:13:37Z jmercouris: wow, you've been working on that a long time 2017-10-27T14:14:05Z beach: Yes, since 1983 or so. Not in Common Lisp at that time though. 2017-10-27T14:14:26Z jmercouris: What language did you used to use? 2017-10-27T14:16:03Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:17:11Z beach: C I think. But the problem was not nearly as complex as it is now. 2017-10-27T14:20:06Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:25:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:26:55Z Aritheanie quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-27T14:28:08Z Aritheanie joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:30:42Z beach: jmercouris: It is a good example because it uses CLOS a lot. It has some interesting algorithmic aspects to it including the self-adjusting splay tree storing the lines. It also uses my absolute latest conventions for writing Common Lisp code. And, it has documentation. 2017-10-27T14:31:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:32:17Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, I've been perusing the code, very well documented, I'll try to understand it 2017-10-27T14:32:44Z beach: Oh, and it has been tested. :) 2017-10-27T14:32:49Z goreye joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:32:58Z jmercouris: Which testing framework are you using? 2017-10-27T14:33:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T14:33:38Z beach: None. Just asserts. I am into random testing and that technique is not very well supported by any testing framework. 2017-10-27T14:34:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T14:34:05Z Aritheanie quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-27T14:34:08Z beach: I write two separate implementations, one simple and one efficient, then I generate random operations and compare the results. 2017-10-27T14:35:20Z Aritheanie joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:36:25Z beach: You might want to start with the documentation, or even the paper. 2017-10-27T14:36:40Z beach: The paper is a good summary of the purpose of the entire thing. 2017-10-27T14:37:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T14:37:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:38:03Z jmercouris: beach: this? https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer/tree/master/Papers/To-submit-1 2017-10-27T14:38:10Z beach: Yes. 2017-10-27T14:38:19Z phoe_: beach: so basically one implementation (the simple one) is assumed to have correct results all the time, and then the other one (the efficient one) is compared to the simple one, correct? 2017-10-27T14:38:19Z beach: Also here: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf 2017-10-27T14:38:47Z jmercouris: That's very interesting way of doing testing, can't say I am a fan of it, but it's not my project 2017-10-27T14:39:03Z beach: phoe_: Sort of. More precisely, it is highly unlikely that the two implementations behave in the same incorrect way for any particular sequence of operations. 2017-10-27T14:39:40Z beach: phoe_: But yeah, the simple implementation is chosen to be so simple that it can be proven correct mainly by inspection. 2017-10-27T14:39:51Z phoe_: Understood. 2017-10-27T14:40:24Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T14:41:00Z beach: jmercouris: It is the only way if the way the data structure behaves is highly context dependent. You can't possibly enumerate all possible cases then, because you would have to write hundreds of thousands of lines of code, and you would have to make sure all cases are tested. Random testing mostly fixes that problem. 2017-10-27T14:41:10Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:41:39Z edwrd quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-27T14:42:21Z jmercouris: beach: I don't understand your project, but I think you have functions that cannot be tested, at least by unit tests, then they probably need decomposition 2017-10-27T14:42:30Z jmercouris: s/i/if 2017-10-27T14:43:09Z jmercouris: Then again like I said, I have no idea what the constraints or complexities involved are 2017-10-27T14:43:19Z Zhivago: Consider a unit test to be a fragmented and incomplete reference implementation coupled with particular inputs. 2017-10-27T14:43:58Z Zhivago: Given a complete reference implementation and a suitably comprehensive set of reference inputs you should be good. 2017-10-27T14:44:10Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:44:14Z beach: jmercouris: If the interface is very simple, but (for reasons of optimization) the internal structure can take on very different shapes for the same externally-visible states, because of the exact order of the operations applied, then it is very hard to manually enumerate test cases. 2017-10-27T14:44:30Z Zhivago: The trick is ensuring that the reference inputs exercise all of the bits you need exercised, since it's no-longer oriented around those bits. 2017-10-27T14:44:41Z jmercouris: Zhivago: what does that even mean 2017-10-27T14:45:01Z jmercouris: Zhivago: ah okay, I misunderstood nvm, I thought you meant bits as in computer bits 2017-10-27T14:45:29Z Zhivago: That would be confusing. ;) 2017-10-27T14:46:07Z Zhivago: Personally I kind of like reference implementations, but find them harder to maintain. 2017-10-27T14:48:27Z beach: jmercouris: Take a simple example: implementing a stack as an adjustable vector hidden behind some class. When the vector is full, you want to (say) double its size. When it is less than 25% full, you want to divide its size by 2. Now if you do 2 pushes and one pop you have a single element. 2017-10-27T14:48:29Z beach: If you do the same 2 pushes, then 1000 more followed by 1000 pops, you still have a single element, but the vector has doubled in size several times, and then it has been shrunk several times. Your tests need to make sure the growing/shrinking code has be adequately tested, even though it is not part of the externally visible interface. 2017-10-27T14:50:15Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:50:22Z beach: Now imagine a more complicated data structure such as a self-adjusting splay tree of lines. It can take on a very large number of shapes for a single externally visible sequence of lines, depending on the order of the operations. There is no way you can manually enumerate all those cases. 2017-10-27T14:51:05Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-27T14:51:13Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T14:51:14Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-10-27T14:51:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:51:30Z jmercouris: beach: Right yeah, that's why you have to use some sort of introspection classes 2017-10-27T14:51:50Z jmercouris: Not introspection classes, but mock components in the interface to see if certain functions are invoked etc 2017-10-27T14:51:51Z nika_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:52:09Z jmercouris: It's most definitely testable, but it at that point would not be a functional test from the standpoint of the interface 2017-10-27T14:52:16Z beach: Oh, that part is easy. You just use the coverage. 2017-10-27T14:52:19Z jmercouris: And of course the test would thereafter be implementation dependent 2017-10-27T14:52:41Z beach: Yes, that's part of the problem. 2017-10-27T14:52:47Z jmercouris: I'd have written several tests that see if the stack shrinks, or grows, and whathave you 2017-10-27T14:52:59Z jmercouris: but then I'd have to have a very concrete internal api to justify that effort, as it may change at any time 2017-10-27T14:53:42Z jmercouris: I see your dilemma 2017-10-27T14:53:42Z beach: The stack example is still somewhat doable. It was just to illustrate that there are many more internal states than external ones. 2017-10-27T14:53:57Z beach: The splay-tree example simply isn't doable. 2017-10-27T14:54:10Z jmercouris: Yeah, I guess you may go down and down the abstraction rabbit hole defining more and more interfaces and components 2017-10-27T14:54:14Z jmercouris: but then, what have you gained? 2017-10-27T14:55:04Z beach: Random testing avoids all that in a simple way. It just exercises the interface, but it does so millions of times in different, randomly chosen combinations. 2017-10-27T14:56:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T14:57:24Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:58:17Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T14:59:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T14:59:28Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:00:42Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:00:59Z dec0n_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T15:01:32Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:01:49Z asarch: How can I use SDRAW in SBCL? 2017-10-27T15:02:07Z Xach: asarch: what is sdraw? 2017-10-27T15:03:29Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:04:06Z asarch: According with the "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" book from David S. Touretzky, is a Lisp Toolkit 2017-10-27T15:04:31Z asarch: "SDRAW is a tool for drawing cons cell representations of lists". 2017-10-27T15:05:09Z Xach: asarch: how does that book recommend using it? 2017-10-27T15:05:34Z beach: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Lisp/sdraw/sdraw.generic 2017-10-27T15:06:05Z beach: I am guessing, load the file and follow the instructions in the book. 2017-10-27T15:06:09Z beach: asarch: Did you try that? 2017-10-27T15:06:45Z asarch: Oh, gotcha! 2017-10-27T15:06:52Z asarch: No, I didn't. Sorry 2017-10-27T15:07:05Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:07:41Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:08:47Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:10:44Z asarch: Well, it was for clarify a question from chapter 6: if I evaluate: (cons 'w '(x y z)), the book says the CDR of the new cons cell points to the symbol W and the CAR points to the list (X Y Z), right? 2017-10-27T15:11:32Z Bike: no, you or the book mixed up CDR and CAR 2017-10-27T15:12:02Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:12:13Z Zhivago: (car (cons 'a 'd)) and (cdr (cons 'a 'd)) may be illuminating. 2017-10-27T15:12:36Z asarch: However, if I evaluate: (cons '(x y z) 'w), the book says that the CAD of the new cons cell points to the list (X Y Z) and the CDR points to the symbol W? 2017-10-27T15:13:13Z asarch: Yeah, I was wrong in the first sentence 2017-10-27T15:13:31Z asarch: CAR points to the symbol W and CDR points to the list (X Y Z) 2017-10-27T15:13:47Z asarch: In the first case 2017-10-27T15:13:57Z Chream quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T15:14:02Z asarch: Right' 2017-10-27T15:14:03Z asarch: ? 2017-10-27T15:14:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:15:53Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:16:11Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:16:45Z Bike: the first argument to cons is the new CAR. the second argument to cons is the new CDR. 2017-10-27T15:16:49Z SaganMan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T15:16:55Z _death: exit 2017-10-27T15:17:22Z jmercouris: _death: /part 2017-10-27T15:18:15Z beach: Maybe I'll recommend sdraw to people here who have trouble understanding that aspect of Common Lisp. 2017-10-27T15:18:30Z _death: sorry, dosbox went a bit crazy ;) 2017-10-27T15:18:51Z cgay: hunter2 2017-10-27T15:19:06Z asarch: Ok, let's see: 565595 2017-10-27T15:19:07Z _death: cuckoo's egg was good 2017-10-27T15:19:17Z asarch: I mean, http://paste.scsys.co.uk/565595 2017-10-27T15:19:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:20:07Z Bike: looks right to me. 2017-10-27T15:20:15Z asarch: My question was: why in the second case, CDR actually points to the symbol W and not the CAR of the new cons cell? 2017-10-27T15:20:24Z Bike: why would it do that? 2017-10-27T15:20:35Z Bike: you did (cons '(x y z) 'w). w is the second argument, so it's the cdr. 2017-10-27T15:20:51Z asarch: I thought CDR was only for pointing to other cons cells 2017-10-27T15:20:57Z Bike: naw. 2017-10-27T15:21:03Z asarch: WOW!!! 2017-10-27T15:21:04Z Bike: conses are stupid. a cons is two things. that's it. 2017-10-27T15:21:08Z sjl: asarch: no, conses in list are just arbitrary pairs 2017-10-27T15:21:13Z Bike: we use them as lists, but fundamentally it's just a pair of things. 2017-10-27T15:21:24Z sjl: we just happen to use the cdr's to point to other conses really often 2017-10-27T15:21:37Z sjl: but (cons 1 2) -> (1 . 2) 2017-10-27T15:22:34Z asarch: I see 2017-10-27T15:22:39Z asarch: Thank you guys 2017-10-27T15:22:45Z asarch: THANK YOU VERY MUCH :-) 2017-10-27T15:22:53Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:24:53Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:25:00Z Xach: no problemo 2017-10-27T15:25:25Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:25:29Z beach: Oh, it even handles circular lists. Nice! I fully expected a crash. 2017-10-27T15:27:20Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-27T15:27:35Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:28:08Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:29:19Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-27T15:32:25Z sjl: aww, I expected a fancy arrow going all the way back to the beginning 2017-10-27T15:32:33Z sjl: #1# notation is cheating :) 2017-10-27T15:32:47Z beach: Better than crashing, though. 2017-10-27T15:32:53Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:32:53Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:33:04Z sjl: definitely 2017-10-27T15:34:02Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:36:01Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T15:36:31Z gabc joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:42:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:45:21Z kuwze joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:46:50Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T15:50:21Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:55:28Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:57:52Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-27T15:58:20Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:59:25Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-27T15:59:30Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-27T16:04:12Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:06:47Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T16:08:21Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:10:45Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:12:49Z nick123 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:17:13Z kuwze: hey when I Control-c Control-k it opens up in the minibuffer instead of a new full sized buffer. How do I fix that? 2017-10-27T16:19:50Z jmercouris: kuwze: what do you mean? 2017-10-27T16:20:04Z jmercouris: for me that is: slime-compile-and-load-file 2017-10-27T16:20:21Z jmercouris: It should just compile the buffer of the file you are currently visiting 2017-10-27T16:20:43Z jmercouris: or rather the buffer of the file 2017-10-27T16:21:06Z kuwze: https://i.imgur.com/R4W0uFm.png 2017-10-27T16:21:18Z kuwze: the errors I mean; they pop up in the minibuffer instead of a side buffer 2017-10-27T16:21:55Z beach: Are you sure that's the minibuffer? 2017-10-27T16:21:58Z jmercouris: that doesn't look like a minibuffer to me 2017-10-27T16:22:02Z jmercouris: there's a modeline below it 2017-10-27T16:22:30Z beach: It looks like a new buffer named *slime-compilation* to me. 2017-10-27T16:22:49Z goreye: They are coming up in the side buffer as well (the repl) 2017-10-27T16:23:39Z kuwze: err, I guess it may not be the minibuffer. But is there a way to make it open in a side buffer instead? 2017-10-27T16:24:19Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:24:28Z goreye: If I'm correct then this goes away if you press any key (move up or down e.g) 2017-10-27T16:24:48Z jmercouris: I think you can advise windows to open in specific locations 2017-10-27T16:25:37Z beach: For me, it opens next to the source, in place of the REPL window. 2017-10-27T16:26:15Z kuwze: beach: yes, that is what it used to do for me. 2017-10-27T16:26:23Z goreye: What I meant was that the errors/warning that's coming in the buffer below are coming up in the right side buffer as well 2017-10-27T16:26:53Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T16:26:54Z beach: kuwze: You must have changed somethign. 2017-10-27T16:26:59Z beach: something. 2017-10-27T16:27:16Z goreye: For me it's not coming up at all :P 2017-10-27T16:28:51Z nick123 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:33:17Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:34:02Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:34:31Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T16:34:50Z kuwze: so it was caused by popwin. my mistake. sorry for bothering you guys. 2017-10-27T16:35:11Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:36:38Z kuwze_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:38:25Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:38:31Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T16:39:00Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:39:30Z kuwze quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:42:01Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:42:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:42:28Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T16:43:45Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:44:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:45:13Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:45:27Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-27T16:50:29Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-27T16:54:13Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T16:56:47Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:00:09Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:02:59Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T17:04:33Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-27T17:04:57Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:06:41Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:09:21Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T17:11:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T17:12:12Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:12:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:16:34Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T17:17:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:22:41Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T17:22:56Z turkja quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-27T17:23:57Z asarch: What is the default GUI library for SBCL? 2017-10-27T17:24:42Z jackdaniel: there is none, sbcl is a compiler 2017-10-27T17:24:59Z asarch: D'oh! 2017-10-27T17:25:05Z asarch: I mean, for Common Lisp 2017-10-27T17:25:21Z jackdaniel: there is plenty of choices, most based on ffi (but not all) 2017-10-27T17:25:27Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:25:54Z asarch: FFI? 2017-10-27T17:25:56Z jackdaniel: see FAQ here for quick overview: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/involve 2017-10-27T17:26:10Z jackdaniel: FFI is a foreign function interface, which allows calling C functions 2017-10-27T17:26:11Z asarch: Thank you 2017-10-27T17:26:22Z jackdaniel: so you can use for instance Qt which has exported C bindings 2017-10-27T17:26:47Z jackdaniel: sure 2017-10-27T17:27:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T17:27:04Z Mat4 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:27:15Z Mat4 left #lisp 2017-10-27T17:27:27Z Mat4 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:27:38Z asarch: I need a dictionary for Common Lisp term ;-P 2017-10-27T17:29:20Z Xach: asarch: it is in the spec! the glossary 2017-10-27T17:29:57Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:30:23Z asarch: ANSI X3J13? 2017-10-27T17:30:25Z kuwze_: is there an easy way to get unix time? local-time seems to only output iso-8601 instead of rfc 3339 2017-10-27T17:31:18Z jackdaniel: kuwze_: try local-time:format-rfc3339-timestring 2017-10-27T17:32:27Z jackdaniel: you have some formats defined as constants to be used with local-time:format-timestring , but the abovementioend should give you what you need 2017-10-27T17:34:39Z kuwze_: jackdaniel: that outputs "2017-10-27T13:34:17.628935-04:00" 2017-10-27T17:35:07Z kuwze_: not unix time, right? 2017-10-27T17:35:28Z _death: local-time:format-rfc1123-timestring 2017-10-27T17:35:45Z jackdaniel: you have asked about rfc3339, haven't you? 2017-10-27T17:35:59Z kuwze_: err I just want unix time 2017-10-27T17:36:03Z kuwze_: wait I figured it out 2017-10-27T17:36:09Z sjl: http://lisptips.com/post/11649360174/the-common-lisp-and-unix-epochs 2017-10-27T17:36:28Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T17:36:49Z jackdaniel: (local-time:timestamp-to-unix (local-time:now)) 2017-10-27T17:37:21Z kuwze_: jackdaniel: that's it! thank you 2017-10-27T17:37:33Z Xach: so many tips 2017-10-27T17:41:30Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:42:01Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T17:45:18Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:45:58Z Xach: /win 3 2017-10-27T17:48:25Z cioran89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T17:48:39Z cioran89 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:53:02Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:54:31Z DingoSaar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T17:54:56Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-10-27T17:55:16Z Mat4 left #lisp 2017-10-27T17:58:57Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T17:59:14Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:01:33Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T18:01:54Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:02:32Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T18:03:47Z cioran89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T18:03:51Z cioran89_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:05:42Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:07:06Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:07:17Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:10:01Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T18:11:39Z SaganMan quit (Quit: laters) 2017-10-27T18:11:53Z jack_rabbit quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T18:12:23Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T18:13:32Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:13:41Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:14:03Z nick123 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T18:15:35Z cioran89_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T18:17:46Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:18:21Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:19:36Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T18:20:55Z motersen joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:22:47Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-27T18:27:58Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-27T18:28:27Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T18:30:34Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-27T18:31:50Z nick123 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:32:00Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:32:18Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T18:32:46Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:33:20Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T18:33:26Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:34:36Z kuwze_: I am trying to get this to work but I am stuck: https://gist.github.com/kuwze/654ca988c9955f7d4aafd744c487043e 2017-10-27T18:35:09Z kuwze_: I am particularly confused because I thought I was using keyword arguments with defaults, but it turns out the defaults are not overridable 2017-10-27T18:35:25Z kuwze_: overrideable* 2017-10-27T18:36:57Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T18:40:19Z Bike: ((:instrument instrument)) is unnecessary, you can just put instrument 2017-10-27T18:40:26Z Bike: ame for the rest 2017-10-27T18:40:30Z argoneus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T18:42:04Z Bike: i don't think i understand your problem however 2017-10-27T18:42:42Z argoneus joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:42:57Z kuwze_: Bike: I am trying to make it so that I can run (cl-oanda::instrument-candles :instrument "CAD_CHF" :granularity "M5") but granularity in this example is not overriding the default "S5" 2017-10-27T18:43:01Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T18:44:52Z Bike: well... it ought to. 2017-10-27T18:44:59Z Bike: but, you don't seem to actually use that parameter? 2017-10-27T18:48:40Z kuwze joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:49:15Z kuwze: I'm sorry my irc client hanged, did someone suggest something for my issue? 2017-10-27T18:50:06Z Bike: i said that it ought to override the default, but also that you don't actually use tehe granularity parameter. 2017-10-27T18:50:40Z kuwze: Bike: ha you're right! I'm an idiot like usual. Thank you! 2017-10-27T18:51:31Z Bike: the other thing is that &key ((:instrument instrument)) and so on is unnecessary, that's totally equivalent to &key instrument 2017-10-27T18:51:54Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:52:30Z kuwze_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T18:55:17Z didi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T18:56:31Z didi: How would you name a function that returns the quantity of odd numbers in a list? `odds-count' or `count-odds'? 2017-10-27T18:56:56Z Bike: the latter, i guess. 2017-10-27T18:57:05Z didi: Bike: Thanks. 2017-10-27T18:57:09Z Bike: i'd just do count :test #'oddp most likely 2017-10-27T18:57:22Z didi: Indeed. 2017-10-27T18:57:35Z Bike: er, count-if #'oddp 2017-10-27T18:59:53Z didi: Another: how would you name a function that adds an odd to a list? `odd-add' or `add-odd'? 2017-10-27T19:01:23Z didi: I guess there is a theme here: noun-verb or verb-noun? 2017-10-27T19:01:44Z didi: Tho `odds-count' is not noun-verb. 2017-10-27T19:01:54Z sjl: didi: in english we generally use Subject-Verb-Object to speak, so verb-object (add-odd) seems to fit better 2017-10-27T19:02:05Z sjl: since the subject (the caller) is implied 2017-10-27T19:02:11Z sjl: but it's really just a matter of taste 2017-10-27T19:02:13Z didi: sjl: Cool. Thank you. 2017-10-27T19:02:24Z didi: sjl: I guess. Still, good to know. 2017-10-27T19:05:24Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T19:05:39Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:05:43Z aeth: didi: Lisp is a verb language 2017-10-27T19:06:11Z aeth: This is probalby in part because Lisp's methods don't belong to classes. 2017-10-27T19:06:26Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:06:27Z didi: aeth: Thanks. 2017-10-27T19:07:03Z aeth: *probably 2017-10-27T19:07:23Z didi: This helps shape my future naming of things. 2017-10-27T19:09:53Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T19:10:39Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-27T19:11:46Z Younder: remove-if-not is a clumsy name. I prefer (setf (symbol-function 'filter) #'remove-if-not) so I can write (filter #'oddp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) 2017-10-27T19:12:56Z didi: I don't mind `remove-if-not'. Actually, I sometimes can't remember if `filter' removes or leaves the stuff that matches. 2017-10-27T19:13:08Z karswell_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T19:14:17Z aeth: Younder: I prefer (setf (symbol-function 'remove-from-a-copy-of-the-list-if-there-is-no-match-with-the-function) #'remove-if-not) 2017-10-27T19:14:55Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T19:15:20Z Younder: Then you will love ADA ;) 2017-10-27T19:18:40Z aeth: I think that that was what mfiano was looking for earlier today to rename iota. 2017-10-27T19:18:43Z aeth: mfiano: poke ^ 2017-10-27T19:19:24Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:19:36Z aeth: e.g., this seems to work: (setf (symbol-function 'return-a-list-of-the-numbers-from-0-to) #'iota) 2017-10-27T19:19:43Z aeth: (return-a-list-of-the-numbers-from-0-to 10) 2017-10-27T19:19:45Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T19:20:29Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:21:41Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T19:22:12Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T19:22:25Z _main_0 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:23:21Z aeth: I think this will beat inlining because inlining has a limit (which I frequently bump into) 2017-10-27T19:24:49Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T19:25:17Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:30:37Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-10-27T19:32:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T19:32:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:33:29Z mfiano: Thanks. Turns out in some cases I _would_ like to alter the signature, so an inlined wrapper function works decent enough. Thanks. 2017-10-27T19:34:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-27T19:35:23Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:36:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T19:39:58Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:40:30Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-27T19:44:00Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T19:45:27Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-27T19:46:51Z nonlinear joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:48:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T19:48:35Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:50:09Z Kyo91_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:50:27Z goreye quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T19:52:14Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:52:51Z skali quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-27T19:53:14Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:53:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:55:29Z sjl: shouldn't that be return-a-list-of-the-numbers-from-0-BELOW? 2017-10-27T19:55:49Z sjl: (iota 10) gives [0, 9] 2017-10-27T19:56:14Z sjl: to fit with the difference between to/below in LOOP and ITERATE 2017-10-27T19:56:59Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T19:57:33Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T19:59:23Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-27T19:59:57Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T20:01:36Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:02:18Z skali quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-27T20:03:09Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:04:47Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-27T20:05:49Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:06:35Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T20:07:12Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:07:31Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:09:42Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-27T20:11:21Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T20:15:47Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:18:48Z johs joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:18:49Z aeth: I guess. loop is the only language I know of that makes that distinction. Usually 0-based languages just automatically understand "to" as "below" so you can say loop to size(foo) or whatever 2017-10-27T20:19:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:22:27Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:27:18Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T20:27:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:27:55Z jfrancis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-27T20:31:25Z fiveop quit 2017-10-27T20:32:28Z jfrancis joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:32:47Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.3.1) 2017-10-27T20:33:08Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:35:27Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T20:38:08Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T20:44:07Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T20:44:14Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-27T20:45:45Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:45:50Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T20:47:32Z oleo: to is including 2017-10-27T20:47:35Z oleo: below is excluding 2017-10-27T20:47:50Z oleo: to 15, 15 included 2017-10-27T20:47:58Z oleo: below 15, 15 excluded 2017-10-27T20:48:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:48:38Z mfiano: That depends English is pretty ambiguous. 2017-10-27T20:49:14Z aeth: 'to' is ambiguous, below is '<' which is true 2017-10-27T20:50:07Z aeth: The ambiguity of 'to' is '<=' or '<', and a lot of 0-indexed languages interpret it as '<=' if they either have a 'to' or read the written source code as 'to' when spoken 2017-10-27T20:50:16Z oleo: nah 2017-10-27T20:50:19Z aeth: oh sorry, '<' not '<=' 2017-10-27T20:50:21Z aeth: got it backwards 2017-10-27T20:50:30Z oleo: when you go to part the part is not exlusive either or ? 2017-10-27T20:50:35Z oleo: party* 2017-10-27T20:50:45Z mfiano: When you drive to someplace, you don't normally stop between your destination and the next place. 2017-10-27T20:50:54Z oleo: heh 2017-10-27T20:51:41Z aeth: mfiano: actually, when you go to some place, you never actually reach it 2017-10-27T20:52:17Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-27T20:52:41Z oleo: well if you abstract it all away "go to" is just an action 2017-10-27T20:53:05Z aeth: anyway, actually, Lisp's loop is probably more mathematically correct, it's just a minority afaik 2017-10-27T20:53:09Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-27T20:53:12Z oleo: and syntactically since it stays between start and destination you could say it is exclusive of either 2017-10-27T20:53:27Z oleo: semantically it includes and extends over both 2017-10-27T20:53:28Z aeth: A lot of the Lisp spec shows that the authors knew math 2017-10-27T20:54:06Z mfiano: Everyone know's Julia with its 1-indexing and * for string interpolation is more correct! ;) 2017-10-27T20:54:29Z aeth: but, anyway, a lot of languages treat integer ranges as [m, n) if 0 based and [m, n] if 1 based. Lisp's a weird 0-based language that treats it as [m, n] 2017-10-27T20:55:26Z aeth: because in 0-based languages, you're kind of working with the border rather than the thing, like, you're indexing the lines, not the cells... | | | | | | | | ... 2017-10-27T20:55:45Z aeth: or at least, that's how I learned it 2017-10-27T20:55:53Z drdo: You are indexing the cells, you just don't descriminate against 0 2017-10-27T20:55:59Z aeth: eh 2017-10-27T20:56:11Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T20:56:12Z aeth: sometimes it's more natural to start with 1 2017-10-27T20:56:21Z drdo: Such as? 2017-10-27T20:56:27Z aeth: I index my matrices starting with 1 and I'm probably not the only one. Just too easy to make off-by-one errors translating all of the algorithms 2017-10-27T20:56:45Z drdo: That's only because the usual literature does it 2017-10-27T20:56:52Z drdo: There's nothing inherently natural about starting at 1 2017-10-27T20:57:04Z aeth: natural numbers literally start at 1 (a lot of the time) 2017-10-27T20:57:08Z drdo: It's really strange in fact, considering the definition of the naturals 2017-10-27T20:57:11Z aeth: 0 and 1 is... very debatable 2017-10-27T20:57:38Z aeth: I think the real solution is to go with the broader convention. Which e.g. means on computers almost everything is 0-indexed, except matrices make more sense 1-indexed. Etc. 2017-10-27T20:57:41Z epony quit (Quit: reinstalling OS) 2017-10-27T20:57:49Z aeth: Whenever you break the convention you're going to cause confusion 2017-10-27T20:57:55Z didi: This conversation reminds me of Dijkstra. 2017-10-27T20:58:01Z drdo: aeth: Why do matrices make more sense 1-indexed? 2017-10-27T20:58:36Z drdo: It's easy to argue that it's pretty silly indexing matrices starting at 1 2017-10-27T20:58:38Z aeth: drdo: matrices in general are just odd. they're 1-index and they go the opposite row/column order of a Cartesian plane 2017-10-27T20:59:02Z aeth: but break either convention and now you have to translate almost all literature out there when you implement matrices, and you are going to make mistakes 2017-10-27T20:59:14Z drdo: Consider a column matrix, index 1 will correspond to the zero degree coefficient 2017-10-27T20:59:23Z drdo: Hardly what one would call natural 2017-10-27T20:59:43Z drdo: It's just a bad convention picked by the mathematicians of the time 2017-10-27T20:59:45Z didi: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html 2017-10-27T20:59:46Z pjb: I don't understand why you have to hold those futile discussions. 2017-10-27T20:59:47Z drdo: And now we're stuck with it 2017-10-27T20:59:53Z pjb: Lisp is a metaprogramming programming language. 2017-10-27T21:00:06Z pjb: If you need 1-based arrays, or any range, you can have them! 2017-10-27T21:00:15Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T21:00:27Z aeth: yes, (matref foo 1 1) seems natural. foo[1][1] would just seem strange. 2017-10-27T21:00:27Z drdo: pjb: Yes, but now we're discussing the merits of each style! 2017-10-27T21:01:01Z pjb: (aref (make-array '((1 - 10) (4 - 6 16 - 18))) 1 4) 2017-10-27T21:02:40Z aeth: hmm 2017-10-27T21:03:05Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:03:06Z aeth: I *could* probably just use 2D arrays for my CL-native matrices, since I abstract it away with matref anyway 2017-10-27T21:03:33Z aeth: (I have both CL-native matrices and C matrices, calling them matref and c-matref iirc.) 2017-10-27T21:04:32Z aeth: Sometimes the most natural way to handle matrices is to start with CL matrices and then do (matrix*-into-c-matrix preallocated-c-matrix cl-matrix-1 cl-matrix-2) 2017-10-27T21:04:41Z aeth: CFFI just expontentially complicates things 2017-10-27T21:04:58Z Shinmera: Or just use vectors for matrices and use static-vectors underneath if you happen to require C interop. 2017-10-27T21:04:59Z pjb: You can use any set for indexes… 2017-10-27T21:05:10Z Shinmera: No need to duplicate anything 2017-10-27T21:05:21Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:05:34Z aeth: Shinmera: I don't duplicate, I convert at the last arithmetic step, so e.g. matrix multiplication with a preallocated C matrix as the target 2017-10-27T21:06:01Z Shinmera: having a "matref" and "c-matref" sure sounds like duplication to me. 2017-10-27T21:06:27Z LiamH: Antik has grid:foreign-array which has a CL view (through static-vectors). 2017-10-27T21:06:28Z jmercouris: I'm sure this is a discussion that will involve resolution and everyone will go home and say "wow, you know what, the other side was definitely right" 2017-10-27T21:07:12Z didi: jmercouris: Did you ever see this happen? 2017-10-27T21:07:12Z Shinmera: It's the internet. There are no fruitful debates. 2017-10-27T21:07:15Z aeth: Shinmera: because when I can get away with working with native CL vectors, it makes things easier and probably (based on the disassembly of e.g. matrix*) faster. But when I can't, I can't 2017-10-27T21:07:41Z aeth: Duplication that fits a pattern can be removed with a macro later if it gets too tedious. 2017-10-27T21:07:42Z jmercouris: didi: I've heard a shaman tell me it happened once 2017-10-27T21:07:57Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:07:59Z didi: jmercouris: Hypnosis, probably. 2017-10-27T21:09:05Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:09:23Z jmercouris: didi: possibly, he was also saying that somebody settled the spaces vs tabs debate, and they were able to believe that IT IS butter 2017-10-27T21:09:26Z aeth: matrix* is 1253 bytes and c-matrix* is 1955 bytes in SBCL. I haven't written benchmarks yet, but I suspect that if I found myself having to write a lot of multiplications, matrix* would win out. 2017-10-27T21:09:33Z aeth: That's quite a byte difference. 2017-10-27T21:09:51Z kuwze: is there an example of having a :use for a specific file? 2017-10-27T21:09:53Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T21:09:54Z jmercouris: s/IT IS/IT IS NOT 2017-10-27T21:11:36Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:12:22Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:12:31Z snits quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-27T21:12:33Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T21:12:51Z snits joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:14:06Z aeth: jmercouris: the spaces vs tabs debate is settled, use Lisp and thus use spaces 2017-10-27T21:14:29Z aeth: jmercouris: similarly, the { on its own line or not debate is settled. Use Lisp, and use ()s, and don't put (s or )s on their own line. 2017-10-27T21:15:19Z aeth: Lisp does not have style holy wars, and has a more uniform formatting style than even Python has 2017-10-27T21:15:41Z snits quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T21:15:41Z aeth: Thus, if everyone used Lisp, all style holy wars would end. 2017-10-27T21:15:43Z didi left #lisp 2017-10-27T21:15:56Z snits joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:17:53Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T21:20:50Z kuwze: how do I return nothing instead of nil? 2017-10-27T21:21:02Z pjb: (values) 2017-10-27T21:21:02Z aeth: (values) 2017-10-27T21:21:04Z jackivan88 joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:21:20Z pjb: (values-list '()) ; also. 2017-10-27T21:21:27Z snits quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-27T21:21:48Z pjb: (defun viota (n) (values-list (iota n))) (viota 6) #| --> 0 ; 1 ; 2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 5 |# 2017-10-27T21:22:18Z snits joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:23:02Z kuwze: hmm... it seems that (values) is still creating a nil 2017-10-27T21:23:05Z kuwze: here is what I have: https://gist.github.com/kuwze/2dc2fb20cbf2f9ab8ea544e21a58b8ce 2017-10-27T21:23:47Z aeth: I think everything but the REPL still treats nothing as NIL 2017-10-27T21:24:50Z aeth: If you want to make nothing in a macro use ,@ 2017-10-27T21:25:08Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-27T21:25:10Z aeth: `(foo ,@nil bar) => (FOO BAR) 2017-10-27T21:25:21Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T21:25:28Z aeth: `(foo ,@(list 'baz) bar) => (FOO BAZ BAR) 2017-10-27T21:25:49Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:26:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:26:19Z aeth: This is what I do when I want an optional part inserted into a quaziquoted list: (let ((foobar t)) `(foo ,@(if foobar '(baz) nil) bar)) 2017-10-27T21:26:54Z aeth: foobar t will make it (FOO BAZ BAR) and foobar nil will make it (FOO BAR) 2017-10-27T21:28:19Z aeth: The other case where you might want nothing, to indicate when nothing is stored rather than the value NIL (e.g. in gethash) is probably best handled the same way gethash handles it, returning two values, where not being present is (values nil nil) 2017-10-27T21:29:07Z shrdlu68: How would one know nothing was returned rather than NIL? 2017-10-27T21:29:24Z pjb: kuwze: (multiple-value-list (values)) #| --> nil |# Nope, no nil there. 2017-10-27T21:29:32Z pjb: kuwze: compare with: (multiple-value-list (values '())) #| --> (nil) |# 2017-10-27T21:29:32Z aeth: shrdlu68: (multiple-value-bind (value value-exists) (gethash :foo hash-table) ...) 2017-10-27T21:29:36Z Shinmera: shrdlu68: Typically you instead designate that something was returned in another value. 2017-10-27T21:30:07Z pjb: kuwze: (length (multiple-value-list (values))) #| --> 0 |# see, 0 values. 2017-10-27T21:30:09Z aeth: shrdlu68: and if you mean functions, pjb has the answer 2017-10-27T21:30:16Z pjb: kuwze: (length (multiple-value-list (values 'a 'b 'c))) #| --> 3 |# 2017-10-27T21:30:31Z shrdlu68: So there really is no value in just returning (values), is there? 2017-10-27T21:30:35Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-27T21:30:49Z aeth: multiple-value-list and the REPL seem to be the only ways to detect if no value is returned rather than NIL 2017-10-27T21:30:49Z pjb: t 2017-10-27T21:31:36Z Shinmera: shrdlu68: Some people think it's more illustrative. 2017-10-27T21:31:52Z Shinmera: I don't. I try to make every function return something useful. 2017-10-27T21:32:04Z pjb: (defun has-values-p (&rest values) (plusp (length values))) (multiple-value-call #'has-values-p (values)) #| --> nil |# (multiple-value-call #'has-values-p (values 1 2 3)) #| --> t |# 2017-10-27T21:32:11Z Shinmera: Even if the function is primarily called for effect. 2017-10-27T21:32:47Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T21:33:19Z pjb: (defun has-values-p (&optional (first-value nil has-values-p) &rest other-values) (declare (ignore first-value other-values)) has-values-p) (multiple-value-call #'has-values-p (values)) #| --> nil |# (multiple-value-call #'has-values-p (values 1 2 3)) #| --> t |# 2017-10-27T21:33:19Z aeth: Shinmera: I agree, and that's one thing I have against Scheme. Scheme implementations basically all take 'return unspecified' literally and return something like e.g. # or or whatever on things like display. 2017-10-27T21:33:29Z pjb: This has-values-p is longer, but more efficient. 2017-10-27T21:33:33Z aeth: Meanwhile, CL returns the string itself in print. 2017-10-27T21:34:35Z aeth: The advantage of expressions is imo everything possibly returning something useful, even if it's not always needed. And it could be useful for e.g. logging 2017-10-27T21:34:41Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:38:04Z sjl: Shinmera: the downside of making every function return something, even if it's not its primary purpose, is that if you do it then someone somewhere is gonna write code that relies on the return value 2017-10-27T21:38:15Z Shinmera: sjl: So? 2017-10-27T21:38:19Z sjl: and now you can't change it without breaking their code later 2017-10-27T21:38:32Z Shinmera: If the primary intent is side effect, why would you want to change it? 2017-10-27T21:38:50Z Shinmera: How would changing the return value differ from any other function? 2017-10-27T21:38:54Z jmercouris: aeth: very profound 2017-10-27T21:39:04Z sjl: maybe something about the project changes and now there's a more natural thing for it to return 2017-10-27T21:39:21Z Shinmera: Then you do the exact same thing you do any time the API has to change. 2017-10-27T21:39:47Z Shinmera: I really don't see how this case would warrant it being dubbed a bad idea 2017-10-27T21:39:48Z sjl: well, sure. either break their code or contort your own thing for backwards compatibility 2017-10-27T21:40:24Z sjl: if there's something obviously useful to return, sure. I'm just thinking of the case where "I'm returning this because it happens to be the last form in the function" 2017-10-27T21:40:25Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:40:48Z sjl: I'd rather hide that kind of implementation detail from the users 2017-10-27T21:41:51Z Shinmera: Sure, but then you can just return NIL. 2017-10-27T21:42:13Z aeth: or t 2017-10-27T21:42:21Z sjl: nil also works fine 2017-10-27T21:42:38Z sjl: get annoying to look at in the REPL 2017-10-27T21:42:40Z sjl: *gets 2017-10-27T21:42:46Z sjl: but accomplishes basically the same thing 2017-10-27T21:42:51Z aeth: When I have functions that verify things, and their purpose is basically to fail with errors (entirely side effects), I try to remember to return t, not nil. 2017-10-27T21:43:13Z sjl: (return 'its-fine) 2017-10-27T21:43:17Z kuwze: pjb: thank you! 2017-10-27T21:45:21Z kuwze: I am still sort of stuck because ,(if (not (null count)) `("count" . ,count) (values)) is returning nil 2017-10-27T21:46:51Z sjl: aeth: you can also use multiple-value-call in a roundabout way :) 2017-10-27T21:46:53Z sjl: (defmacro returned-values-p (form) `(multiple-value-call (lambda (&rest vs) (not (null vs))) ,form)) 2017-10-27T21:47:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:47:54Z aeth: sjl: thanks, putting that everywhere in my code now 2017-10-27T21:48:00Z sjl: lol 2017-10-27T21:48:05Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:48:05Z sjl: I take no responsibility for this 2017-10-27T21:48:11Z sjl: I said "can", not "should" ;) 2017-10-27T21:48:31Z Bike quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-27T21:48:51Z mfiano: If I have (defmethod foo (x) ..) and (defmethod foo ((x bar)) ..), is there anything in the MOP that can tell me that a specialized method exists for foo with a bar object? 2017-10-27T21:48:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:50:06Z aeth: sjl: but I guess that's another use for an empty values. (multiple-value-call #'some-function-with-no-arguments (values)) 2017-10-27T21:50:18Z aeth: Now you can multiple-value-call all those functions that won't accept anything! 2017-10-27T21:50:25Z sjl: can't you just omit (values) entirely there? 2017-10-27T21:50:36Z sjl: (mvc #'nullary-function) 2017-10-27T21:51:02Z sjl: yeah 2017-10-27T21:51:04Z aeth: sjl: Yeah, but you're probably not going to use m-v-c directly like that. You'd probably be using it in a macro 2017-10-27T21:51:04Z sjl: (multiple-value-call (lambda () 1)) 2017-10-27T21:51:09Z sjl: sure 2017-10-27T21:51:35Z sjl: we passed "probably going to use ... like this" a long ways back here 2017-10-27T21:51:38Z kuwze: would someone mind critiquing my code? https://gist.github.com/kuwze/10fe070df2e653f83edec6f850ef1878 2017-10-27T21:51:54Z kuwze: I figured out how to solve the issue... but I feel like I am doing it wrong 2017-10-27T21:52:12Z kuwze: I have stuff like ,@(if (not (null count)) `(("count" . ,count)) (values)) 2017-10-27T21:52:47Z Bike: you can just do ,@(unless (null count) `(("count" . ,count))) 2017-10-27T21:52:56Z sjl: you don't need the values in there at all, yeah 2017-10-27T21:53:05Z sjl: the ,@ will splice in a NIL as nothing 2017-10-27T21:53:17Z sjl: it's a common, if ugly, quasiquote trick 2017-10-27T21:53:26Z Bike: and (values) in that context ends up as nil anyway 2017-10-27T21:53:41Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-27T21:53:42Z sjl: right 2017-10-27T21:54:08Z Bike: other than that, as i said a few times, the ((:instrument instrument)) thing is unnecessary 2017-10-27T21:54:28Z Bike: (&key instrument (price "M") (granularity "S5") (count 500) ...) is the same 2017-10-27T21:55:02Z Bike: you have format t instead of actual errors 2017-10-27T21:55:35Z aeth: fortunately, error behaves almost exactly like format 2017-10-27T21:55:40Z sjl: kuwze: I'd do the splicing in a single step: https://gist.github.com/sjl/4078ac46b050c32311c7cb816f830195#file-test-lisp-L28-L30 2017-10-27T21:55:41Z kuwze: Bike: sorry, you keep making that suggestion about instrument and I keep forgetting 2017-10-27T21:55:45Z aeth: (error "Hello, ~A!" "World") 2017-10-27T21:56:02Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-27T21:56:29Z sjl: instead of checking for the nullness of count three times, just do it once and splice in the appropriate stuff 2017-10-27T21:56:48Z Bike: ah, yeah 2017-10-27T21:57:11Z sjl: you do still need the ,@ because one of the cases has two items you want to splice in 2017-10-27T21:57:16Z sjl: but yeah, you can do it all in one go 2017-10-27T21:57:17Z Bike: ,@(if (null count) `(("from" . ,from) ("to" . ,to)) `(("count" . ,count))) 2017-10-27T21:57:29Z sjl: yeah, you can remove the not if you swap the cases 2017-10-27T21:58:08Z Bike: you could collapse the (progn (setf ...) (setf ...)) into one setf 2017-10-27T22:01:20Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-10-27T22:02:36Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:05:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:06:18Z lambdice quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-27T22:06:27Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:07:29Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:08:05Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:08:43Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:08:58Z kuwze: Bike: what do you mean about collapsing it into one setf? I am setting two variables, doesn't that require two setfs? 2017-10-27T22:09:04Z Bike: nope 2017-10-27T22:09:11Z Bike: you can do (setf variable1 value1 variable2 value2) 2017-10-27T22:12:56Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-10-27T22:12:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:13:21Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:13:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:13:41Z margeas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T22:13:49Z aeth: You can also use psetf. iirc, setf is like let*, psetf is like let 2017-10-27T22:14:18Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-27T22:14:18Z sjl: I'm never sure which is better to use when the ordering doesn't actually matter 2017-10-27T22:14:30Z Bike: in this case it does matter, so the question is moot 2017-10-27T22:14:42Z sjl: setf because it's more common? psetf because maybe it can generate faster code? idk 2017-10-27T22:14:44Z sjl: yeah 2017-10-27T22:17:28Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T22:18:22Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:18:45Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:22:08Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:22:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T22:23:24Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:27:40Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-27T22:29:27Z Shinmera: why would psetf generate faster code? 2017-10-27T22:29:35Z Shinmera: It has to save the values so it can be parallel. 2017-10-27T22:30:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:30:43Z jmercouris: It is irrelevant, faster code on what? on which platform? 2017-10-27T22:30:56Z aeth: It would probably optimize to no difference in most uses of psetf. 2017-10-27T22:31:02Z jmercouris: There are a million and one variables, one can't just say "this code is faster than this code" unless we do big o comparison 2017-10-27T22:31:24Z aeth: In places where setf and psetf are exactly equivalent, why would it produce different code? 2017-10-27T22:31:26Z jmercouris: and even then, some code may be faster on some systems when it should theoretically be slower than another algorithm 2017-10-27T22:31:48Z jmercouris: aeth: This is not for us to decide, the arbiter is the implementation implementor, it may or may not be the same speed 2017-10-27T22:34:53Z jmercouris: How can I easily do a bitwise AND in cl? 2017-10-27T22:35:18Z Shinmera: logand 2017-10-27T22:36:28Z jmercouris: Shinmera: thanks 2017-10-27T22:39:12Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:41:33Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:43:32Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T22:45:20Z mikecheck joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:49:05Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:52:18Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-27T22:52:31Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:52:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-27T22:58:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-27T22:58:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-27T23:01:23Z margeas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-27T23:02:00Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-27T23:02:16Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-27T23:05:31Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-27T23:09:02Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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This seems I common practice and I'm trying to understand the reasons behind that. Commonly I just define the packages on the same file where has the functions definitions and stuff. 2017-10-28T04:56:22Z didi: Is it possible to SETF an ALIST item? 2017-10-28T04:56:43Z Bike: lerax: if you have one package per file, defining the package in the file makes sense. 2017-10-28T04:56:50Z mr_yogurt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-28T04:56:57Z Bike: didi: alexandria has assoc-value for that. 2017-10-28T04:57:04Z didi: Bike: Thank you. 2017-10-28T04:57:11Z Bike: it handles both the existing-cell case and the push-to-the-front case, which you'd have to do manually otherwise. 2017-10-28T04:59:22Z lerax: Bike: so this technique defining a separated file for packages definition is only useful when you have a unique package with multiple files defining it? 2017-10-28T04:59:45Z lerax: (sorry if this a dumb question, I'm just thinking about it) 2017-10-28T04:59:58Z Bike: it's just a form of organization, i don't know if i would call either way "useful" 2017-10-28T05:00:26Z lerax: I tried earlier submit a project on Quicklisp but seems I have bad practices on my code about handling the dependencies. 2017-10-28T05:00:37Z lerax: Bike: ah, ok. I understand now. Thanks. 2017-10-28T05:03:51Z lerax: Bike: which I'm trying to say is that I do a some type of evil stuff on https://github.com/ryukinix/lisp-chat/blob/master/client.lisp#L4 loading internally with 'ql:quickload the dependencies used on each file. I did that because initially I didn't understand very well how ASDF systems works, but since I learned some things, I'm think this is pretty stupid. :( . So I was thinking on just removing that, but I remember that I was having 2017-10-28T05:03:51Z lerax: problems with emacs + slime with quicklisp too... anyway, just thinking about it. 2017-10-28T05:04:17Z Bike: yeah, tha'ts probably not going to fly in a repository. 2017-10-28T05:07:42Z lerax: Usually, there is some type of setup to load dependencies of package on slime? Because I usually just want to open a REPL, eval the buffer and test. But since if my file don't setup correctly the dependencies, it will not run. So I were thinking that I'm something pretty fundamental about ASDF systems on Slime + EMACS. 2017-10-28T05:09:34Z lerax: I'm missing* 2017-10-28T05:14:46Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-28T05:20:24Z Bike: usually you just load the asdf system and asdf takes care of the dpeendencies 2017-10-28T05:20:28Z Bike: nothing to do with slime particularly 2017-10-28T05:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T05:28:30Z lerax: Bike: Thanks. I tried here and works so fine that I'm almost angry about doing so much painful thing for nothing. I'm just need to attach slime-asdf symbol to slime-contribs and got it. 2017-10-28T05:32:02Z Bike: um, ok. 2017-10-28T05:33:20Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-28T05:35:20Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-28T05:37:25Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2017-10-28T05:39:20Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2017-10-28T05:42:01Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-28T05:42:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-28T05:45:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-28T05:49:06Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-10-28T05:52:19Z neoncontrails quit 2017-10-28T05:53:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-28T05:55:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T06:04:50Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-10-28T06:06:19Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-28T06:07:55Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-28T06:08:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-28T06:09:22Z tty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-28T06:11:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-28T06:20:47Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-28T06:21:50Z sabrac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T06:22:12Z sabrac joined #lisp 2017-10-28T06:34:59Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-28T06:35:05Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-10-28T06:41:05Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-28T06:55:54Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-28T06:57:24Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-10-28T06:57:36Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-10-28T06:57:46Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:02:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:05:17Z didi` joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:08:42Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T07:09:05Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T07:13:46Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:14:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:16:04Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T07:22:31Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:22:38Z JenElizabeth: Hi all 2017-10-28T07:24:01Z beach: Hello JenElizabeth. 2017-10-28T07:25:11Z JenElizabeth: Is lisp built on C? 2017-10-28T07:25:17Z beach: No. 2017-10-28T07:25:54Z beach: Common Lisp is a programming language, so it is not built on anything. Some Common Lisp implementation might be written in C, but mostly they are written in Common Lisp. 2017-10-28T07:26:38Z JenElizabeth: How is the common lisp found? 2017-10-28T07:26:50Z JenElizabeth: I mean, how was it built? 2017-10-28T07:27:04Z beach: The language or some implementation of it? 2017-10-28T07:27:16Z beach: The language was created by an ANSI committee. 2017-10-28T07:28:06Z beach: Some implementation, like SBCL is built (bootstrapped) using an existing Common Lisp implementation. Either SBCL itself or some other implementation such as CLISP. 2017-10-28T07:28:33Z beach: Not very different from the way GCC is built using GCC. 2017-10-28T07:28:54Z beach: More complicated of course, since Common Lisp is a richer language than C. 2017-10-28T07:29:37Z beach: But I don't know whether that is really what you are asking. 2017-10-28T07:31:35Z JenElizabeth: Ah, sorta... well, I was wondering of which language(s) underpin its foundations 2017-10-28T07:31:41Z JenElizabeth: I'm assuming assembly? 2017-10-28T07:31:58Z beach: Not really no. 2017-10-28T07:32:04Z pjb: Given that LISP was invented in 1958, when there was very few programming languages invented, none. 2017-10-28T07:32:27Z beach: JenElizabeth: You may be confusing the language and an implementation of the language. 2017-10-28T07:32:40Z pjb: JenElizabeth: some of the inspirations of LISP were NSS, FLPL, and lambda calculus. 2017-10-28T07:33:08Z jackdaniel: you may write lisp interpreter in javascript if you really must, and it still may be able to compile to the machine code 2017-10-28T07:33:29Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html https://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/ 2017-10-28T07:33:40Z pjb: But fundamentally, lisp is defined in terms of lisp. 2017-10-28T07:34:01Z beach: JenElizabeth: A typical Common Lisp implementation such as SBCL is written mostly in Common Lisp. An existing Common Lisp implementation is used to compile the code of SBCL to native machine code. 2017-10-28T07:34:08Z pjb: This is why Dijkstra had so much difficulty grasping it. 2017-10-28T07:34:08Z JenElizabeth: Okay... I just generally thought that languages were built upon other languages until you reach the lowest level which generally comprises machine code 2017-10-28T07:34:32Z beach: That is not necessarily the case. 2017-10-28T07:34:34Z JenElizabeth: But lisp needs to be compiled by something right? Something must interpret its language 2017-10-28T07:34:48Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:34:49Z beach: It is compiled by an existing Common Lisp implementation like I said. 2017-10-28T07:34:55Z pjb: You can implement this something lisp! 2017-10-28T07:35:13Z pjb: JenElizabeth: you may want to ask about bootstrapping, but this is a different question. 2017-10-28T07:35:14Z JenElizabeth: Okay, so assuming that Common Lisp must then be like C 2017-10-28T07:35:26Z JenElizabeth: okay, something to learn... 2017-10-28T07:35:26Z pjb: It's Turing Complete, yes. 2017-10-28T07:35:34Z pjb: (C is not, so…) 2017-10-28T07:35:43Z JenElizabeth: How do you mean? 2017-10-28T07:35:51Z cess11: Since it is defined in terms of itself it can be interpreted as well as compiled but still be the same language. 2017-10-28T07:37:04Z pjb: JenElizabeth: the C standard don't guarantee that a C function can be called. This renders the C language non-Turing Complete. 2017-10-28T07:37:42Z pjb: There are also other difficulties in the C standard that makes it an unusable programming language. 2017-10-28T07:38:11Z JenElizabeth: What makes a language turing-complete? 2017-10-28T07:38:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T07:38:35Z pjb: The equivalence with a universal Turing Machine, which has an infinite memory. 2017-10-28T07:38:47Z beach: JenElizabeth: That it is equivalent in power to a Turing machine, or equivalently, to the lambda calculus. 2017-10-28T07:38:50Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:38:50Z beach: JenElizabeth: What is the reason for your question about Lisp? 2017-10-28T07:39:33Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:39:50Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-28T07:40:29Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:40:56Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-10-28T07:41:44Z JenElizabeth: I'm just curious of how these languages are founded 2017-10-28T07:42:46Z JenElizabeth: beach I think I may understand you regarding lambda calculus... so, essentially a self-defined function which can define other functions by this means, which may be unique variations of such... ? 2017-10-28T07:42:52Z beach: Then, again, you have to distinguish between the language (as defined by some specification) and the implementations (compiler, interpreter) of it. 2017-10-28T07:43:22Z JenElizabeth: Okay, was mostly curious of its compiler/interpreter 2017-10-28T07:43:24Z aeth: JenElizabeth: Are you talking about principles of the language itself or principles of compiling/interpreting Lisp? 2017-10-28T07:44:19Z aeth: Generally Common Lisp is compiled, but it's sometimes interpreted, and the approaches can vary significantly 2017-10-28T07:44:20Z beach: JenElizabeth: Some language implementations are written in some other language. I am guessing for instance that the standard implementations of Python and Perl are written in something else like C. 2017-10-28T07:44:20Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-28T07:44:52Z pjb: AFAIK, Pypy is becoming the standard implementation of Python is written in Python. 2017-10-28T07:44:59Z beach: Oh, OK. 2017-10-28T07:45:54Z pjb: or "standard". 2017-10-28T07:45:59Z beach: JenElizabeth: When a language is compiled, it is translated from source code to native machine code. This translation can be done by a compiler written in any language. For Common Lisp, typically the compiler is written in Common Lisp. 2017-10-28T07:46:17Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:49:38Z aeth: pjb: On the subject of being infinite, Lisp does have some issues, e.g. lambda-parameters-limit, call-arguments-limit, array-total-size-limit, etc. Minimums are defined and they can be much higher, but they have to be a constant integer value. 2017-10-28T07:49:52Z aeth: pjb: I wonder if any of the many limits gets in the way with being truly Turing complete 2017-10-28T07:50:05Z pjb: integers are not limited. 2017-10-28T07:50:21Z aeth: Yes, but they have to be some integer, and they cannot change because they're constants. 2017-10-28T07:50:38Z aeth: So anything that's defined by a foo-limit constant is necessarily finite during the execution of a program 2017-10-28T07:50:51Z beach: *sigh* 2017-10-28T07:52:26Z aeth: pjb: I don't think there's any limit on the restriction of tagbody and go (e.g. symbol limits or something), so I think that's where the Turing completeness would have to come from, since tail recursion is not guaranteed. 2017-10-28T07:52:55Z pjb: cons 2017-10-28T07:53:04Z jackdaniel: aeth: that doesn't make a slightiest sense to me what you're saying 2017-10-28T07:53:19Z aeth: jackdaniel: guess I should go to sleep then, sorry 2017-10-28T07:53:33Z jackdaniel: good night o/ 2017-10-28T07:54:17Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-28T07:55:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:55:20Z lambdice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-28T07:55:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-28T07:58:48Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:02:19Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-28T08:12:22Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:13:40Z mn3m quit (Quit: mn3m) 2017-10-28T08:15:42Z lambdice joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:17:07Z KZiemian joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:23:46Z KZiemian: phoe_: hey 2017-10-28T08:24:03Z KZiemian: phoe_: I have one question 2017-10-28T08:24:10Z Zhivago: aeth: Note that minimums are not maximums. 2017-10-28T08:24:31Z KZiemian: phoe_: do I need write more on diffs on GitHub or note? 2017-10-28T08:25:21Z KZiemian: phoe_: *or not? 2017-10-28T08:25:38Z KZiemian: phoe_: better to do it when I reameber about it 2017-10-28T08:25:54Z KZiemian: phoe_: *about what is inside? 2017-10-28T08:29:17Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:29:25Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU quit (Excess Flood) 2017-10-28T08:30:09Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:31:40Z edgar-rft: I think the minimum *is* aeth's maximum :-) 2017-10-28T08:32:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-28T08:34:59Z KZiemian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-28T08:35:08Z d4ryus2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-28T08:37:31Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:43:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:44:20Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:46:40Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-28T08:47:06Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-28T08:49:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-28T08:56:27Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-28T08:56:43Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T09:03:47Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-28T09:04:13Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:04:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:06:10Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-28T09:10:17Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:11:27Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:20:06Z vtcoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-28T09:20:49Z nonlinear quit (Excess Flood) 2017-10-28T09:21:44Z nonlinear joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:23:39Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-10-28T09:32:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:33:10Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-28T09:36:44Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:37:02Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-28T09:37:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-28T09:40:57Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T09:42:13Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-28T09:45:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T09:51:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-28T09:54:35Z ak52 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-28T09:59:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-28T10:00:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-28T10:01:00Z ak52 joined #lisp 2017-10-28T10:07:25Z tteguniticr joined #lisp 2017-10-28T10:07:26Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-28T10:12:49Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T10:13:41Z pegu joined #lisp 2017-10-28T10:18:01Z tteguniticr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T10:21:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-28T10:25:13Z lambdice: beach: little update, i made ecl running and it is well interfaced with my c program 2017-10-28T10:27:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T10:27:50Z lambdice: beach: Jackdaniel helped digging in the doc and learnt me some basic stuff about the way to embedd it, as promise i will write a consistent example and tuts for ppl who want to gamedev in C++ with the scripting part handled by ecl 2017-10-28T10:30:02Z jackdaniel: fame and glory awaits :) 2017-10-28T10:31:43Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-28T10:32:26Z jackdaniel: if I want to normalize radians to [0,2pi], is it enough to say: (nth-value 1 (ffloor a (* 2 pi))) ;? 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I don't recognize your nick. 2017-10-28T16:13:54Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:14:48Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:14:54Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:15:27Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T16:20:09Z bkst joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:24:29Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:26:30Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:28:10Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:29:03Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:29:14Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:29:21Z jfrancis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:29:24Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-28T16:29:27Z Jen is now known as Guest27633 2017-10-28T16:29:30Z emaczen: is there a standard error/condition for no applicable method? 2017-10-28T16:30:23Z beach: No, but there is a generic function that is called. 2017-10-28T16:30:44Z beach: clhs no-applicable-method 2017-10-28T16:30:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_app.htm 2017-10-28T16:31:07Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:31:07Z jfrancis joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:32:17Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:32:28Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:32:47Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:33:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T16:34:39Z Guest27633 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:35:43Z jfrancis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:36:02Z jfrancis joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:37:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:38:08Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:38:14Z milanj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T16:41:35Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:43:13Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:47:32Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:48:57Z beach: emaczen: Did you not like that answer? 2017-10-28T16:50:01Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:50:01Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2017-10-28T16:51:17Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-28T16:52:57Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:55:09Z didi`` joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:55:10Z didi` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-28T16:55:45Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-10-28T16:57:30Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:03:48Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:04:47Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:05:06Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T17:07:41Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:09:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:11:55Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:12:47Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T17:14:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T17:14:23Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:17:30Z toy joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:18:01Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T17:20:10Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-28T17:21:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-28T17:22:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-28T17:22:04Z pjb: emaczen: the answer is yes, it's CL:ERROR. 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2017-10-28T21:25:53Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T21:27:46Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-10-28T21:29:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-28T21:31:18Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-28T21:33:19Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T21:36:56Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-28T21:41:23Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-28T21:44:38Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-28T21:48:31Z richardjdare joined #lisp 2017-10-28T21:51:09Z gigetoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-28T21:51:32Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-10-28T21:54:22Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:00:01Z turkja joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:01:19Z aeth: is there any way to know about function types? 2017-10-28T22:01:52Z Shinmera: What? 2017-10-28T22:02:03Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:02:16Z aeth: From within the language, I mean. 2017-10-28T22:04:29Z aeth: e.g. typep doesn't work on them 2017-10-28T22:04:45Z Shinmera: cltl2's function-information. 2017-10-28T22:05:08Z Shinmera: I mean, that could tell you the ftype of a function. 2017-10-28T22:05:12Z Shinmera: If that's what you want? 2017-10-28T22:05:21Z mercourisj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-28T22:05:37Z Winter_ left #lisp 2017-10-28T22:05:38Z antoszka: With CL it'd only make sense when there are a lot of compiler hints with regards to type. 2017-10-28T22:06:07Z antoszka: And getting that information would be very much implementation-dependent (if possible at all). 2017-10-28T22:06:25Z antoszka: (not sure if that's what you're asking about) 2017-10-28T22:06:50Z Bike: function types don't describe function objects, they describe calls to functions. 2017-10-28T22:06:54Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:07:16Z Bike: so functions don't really "have types" in the same way other objects do, beyond just being of type function or whatever. 2017-10-28T22:08:02Z Bike: or in short, no. if you don't mean introspection to get at declaration information, which is what the cltl2 stuff does. 2017-10-28T22:10:24Z aeth: well, I mean, e.g. in SBCL, SLIME shows things like this: (FUNCTION ((SIMPLE-ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT (3)) (SIMPLE-ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT (3))) (VALUES (SIMPLE-ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT (3)) &OPTIONAL)) 2017-10-28T22:10:33Z aeth: which I guess is declaration information? 2017-10-28T22:11:08Z Bike: might be inferred, but yeah 2017-10-28T22:11:08Z aeth: Well, the variable types appear to come from declare (but could also be achieved with declaim ftype) and the return type appears to be deduced. 2017-10-28T22:11:23Z Bike: cltl2 accessors will get that. i have a little library that does it more portably 2017-10-28T22:12:42Z Bike: what do you want to do with it? 2017-10-28T22:14:40Z aeth: well, I'm just doing checks to make my program more robust (I probably could even do some at macro expansion time rather than right at startup) 2017-10-28T22:14:51Z Bike: checks? 2017-10-28T22:15:13Z aeth: It's a pain having to deal with bugs that pop up in runtime because cl-sdl2 makes it a pain with its threads and foreign code. 2017-10-28T22:15:32Z aeth: So if I could e.g. determine that the function passed in is not going to make it anyway, I can fail the program before I initialize GL and SDL 2017-10-28T22:15:54Z aeth: e.g. some functions are passed in and if it doesn't have enough arguments, it will fail, but it will fail when called 2017-10-28T22:16:02Z aeth: Some introspection makes it fail earlier 2017-10-28T22:16:55Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T22:17:10Z aeth: Type checks on non-functions are easy. And I do make mistakes without them. 2017-10-28T22:18:13Z Bike: iif you're talking about a function argument to a function, you can't really check that 2017-10-28T22:18:31Z Bike: because the object itself lacks the information 2017-10-28T22:18:37Z pjb: You can check it's a function or a symbol that is fbound to a function. 2017-10-28T22:19:12Z aeth: e.g. Consider the function foo, which is passed into the program at the start. It takes in the keys :bar :baz and :foobar, or it should because it will be called with those keys. If I can fail it on initialization of the game rather than when it tries to call the invalid function, that saves a minor headache. 2017-10-28T22:19:30Z pjb: Well, already a function doesn't take keys. 2017-10-28T22:19:31Z aeth: If it's not sophisticated enough to handle keys, fine, I can get rid of keys and just make it check the argument count, which will catch a lot 2017-10-28T22:19:45Z pjb: A function can take mandatory parameters, optional parameters, and remaining parameters. 2017-10-28T22:19:52Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T22:19:54Z pjb: &key is a subset of &rest. 2017-10-28T22:20:10Z Bike: function objects do not have this information associated with them, sorry 2017-10-28T22:20:16Z pjb: When you have a function with &key, you can call it with :allow-other-keys t and any number of random key pairs. 2017-10-28T22:20:26Z Bike: not in any well-accessible way, at least 2017-10-28T22:21:22Z pjb: That said, you could define your own defun defmethod defgeneric and lambda macros, to bookkeep the function signatures and do whatever you want with them. 2017-10-28T22:21:30Z aeth: yes 2017-10-28T22:21:34Z pjb: (but notice that you don't get the result type easily). 2017-10-28T22:22:23Z Bike: i think there was a presentation on this at els 2017-10-28T22:22:37Z aeth: I already define a lot of things through define-foo (e.g. define-key-bindings or define-shader) rather than directly, so I could just make the user use define-script-function instead of defun for the script function that's passed in 2017-10-28T22:22:52Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand the design, though 2017-10-28T22:23:01Z pjb: if that's meaningful, or you can just shadow defun etc. and define your own. 2017-10-28T22:23:10Z Bike: of this, i mean. 2017-10-28T22:23:44Z pjb: see ibcl http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html or cl-stepper for examples. 2017-10-28T22:25:25Z aeth: My design? It's fairly simple. It's a simple game engine where things are passed into the game engine, which then does things with those things (SDL input & window, OpenGL rendering, everything else in native CL) 2017-10-28T22:25:39Z aeth: so e.g. passing in the key bindings, and the shaders, and the textures, and the models, etc. 2017-10-28T22:26:40Z aeth: These could be procedurally generated or read in or hardcoded in Lisp. It doesn't care. It verifies as much as it can at the start to avoid as many run time errors (mostly type errors) as it can. 2017-10-28T22:27:39Z aeth: i.e. this: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/98e0e203e9ed39352be8e4ca84a4d6c022910dbe/core/window.lisp#L175-197 2017-10-28T22:28:08Z Bike: to be extrmely pedantic, you probably mean e.g., but yeah i see 2017-10-28T22:28:32Z aeth: The most elaborate is check-shader-types because that's the most recent, and it checks pretty much everything that can be checked without at least some basic semantic knowledge of shaders. 2017-10-28T22:28:36Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/master/data/shader.lisp#L172-195 2017-10-28T22:28:51Z aeth: oh, sorry, permalink that won't go stale: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/98e0e203e9ed39352be8e4ca84a4d6c022910dbe/data/shader.lisp#L172-195 2017-10-28T22:29:47Z aeth: Actually, a lot of the shader stuff gets checked twice, once when the shader data is made via make-shader-data and once in make-window, since I can't really assume that the shader data is made with make-shader-data, but make-shader-data will catch mistakes sooner if used. 2017-10-28T22:29:52Z Bike: okay, i see. so yeah that kind of thing isn't really checkable. you can maybe get at the lambda list with function-lambda-expression but honestly, probably not 2017-10-28T22:30:15Z Bike: e.g. on sbcl at high optimization that information isn't even attached to functions any more 2017-10-28T22:30:24Z aeth: Well, I could probably check a lot of it in the latter type of check, on creation before it's passed in, with define-script-function or something 2017-10-28T22:30:45Z aeth: Wouldn't have the robust double-check that shaders have, but would catch bugs that I make, at least. 2017-10-28T22:32:40Z aeth: By the way, I'm doing all this checking even though I'm the only user because I'm a bad user, and I've often gotten cryptic runtime errors like random NILs popping up when I passed in invalid data. And that's much more annoying than being told exactly where I failed. 2017-10-28T22:34:01Z aeth: I've gotten bitten by just about every invalid data bug at least once, including with the functions passed in. It's easy if I refactor something but forget to update a user, e.g. adding a new keyword that must be accepted but not updating that function in one of the examples. 2017-10-28T22:35:46Z aeth: (And if any typed language proponents are reading this, using a typed language fixes the most basic of these bugs, but not e.g. using an invalid shader name in a shader program, which I can catch.) 2017-10-28T22:38:10Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:39:57Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T22:45:13Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:45:54Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-28T22:47:01Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:48:15Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-28T22:49:36Z pmetzger_ joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:49:36Z pmetzger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-28T22:50:30Z borei joined #lisp 2017-10-28T22:52:52Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-28T23:01:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T23:02:21Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:02:47Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:03:49Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:04:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:05:30Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:05:57Z pmetzger_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T23:06:18Z pmetzger quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-28T23:12:13Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-28T23:15:33Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:15:51Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T23:16:49Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-28T23:16:58Z o1e9 quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2017-10-28T23:17:20Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:21:38Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-28T23:23:37Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:29:20Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:31:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-28T23:31:50Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-28T23:35:01Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-28T23:36:28Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-28T23:37:54Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:44:39Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-28T23:49:27Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-29T00:00:01Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T00:03:18Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T00:03:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-29T00:04:06Z richardjdare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-29T00:04:10Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-29T00:06:24Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T00:07:49Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-10-29T00:10:21Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-29T00:10:35Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-29T00:17:27Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T00:26:08Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T00:29:21Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T00:34:20Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T00:34:45Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-29T00:37:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T00:41:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-29T00:56:29Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-29T00:56:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T00:58:16Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T01:07:35Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-29T01:09:55Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-29T01:16:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T01:20:00Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-29T01:21:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T01:23:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T01:29:57Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-29T01:36:01Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T01:55:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-29T01:56:54Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-29T01:58:25Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-29T01:59:18Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-29T02:04:20Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T02:10:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T02:25:55Z sanou572 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T02:39:07Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-10-29T02:39:56Z sword joined #lisp 2017-10-29T02:41:31Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-10-29T02:44:29Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T02:47:46Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-29T02:53:51Z Ellenor is now known as Reinhilde 2017-10-29T02:54:50Z broccolistem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T03:00:23Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:06:46Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-10-29T03:07:00Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:08:50Z toy joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:09:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:10:23Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:10:57Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T03:11:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:15:01Z sanou572 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:15:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:16:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:18:51Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:30:34Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:31:42Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:33:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:39:25Z kozy joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:40:25Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:40:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:48:20Z toy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T03:50:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:52:21Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:54:13Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-29T03:54:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T03:56:09Z drmeister: Is it ok if the supplied-p variable for &optional is 1 (not NIL)? 2017-10-29T03:56:21Z drmeister: clhs 3.4.1.2 2017-10-29T03:56:21Z specbot: Specifiers for optional parameters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dab.htm 2017-10-29T03:57:10Z drmeister: It says bound to true and the glossary says that true is any object that is not false. 2017-10-29T03:57:48Z beach: It looks like 1 is acceptable. 2017-10-29T04:00:44Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:00:47Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-29T04:01:34Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:05:33Z pjb: drmeister: if it says true instead of T, then any non-nil is good. 2017-10-29T04:06:11Z drmeister: Thank you both. 2017-10-29T04:06:14Z pjb: drmeister: instead if 1, you could put there the index of the argument. 2017-10-29T04:06:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:06:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:09:53Z broccolistem quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-29T04:10:51Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-29T04:10:59Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-29T04:12:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:12:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:14:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:16:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:17:37Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:17:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:18:54Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:19:14Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:22:37Z krwq: hey, I'm trying to optimize this code: https://ideone.com/FYgQBS (http://www.spoj.com/submit/TOUR/) - I've send identical solution in C++ and getting accepted while in common lisp I get TLE (time limit exceeded) 2017-10-29T04:22:47Z krwq: do you have any advices? 2017-10-29T04:23:44Z krwq: I'm suspecting changing the way I read integers from the input should give it a major boost but not sure if there is a better way than simply (read) 2017-10-29T04:25:16Z pjb: krwq: don't allocate 0-sized array. compute its size and allocate it in full once for all. 2017-10-29T04:25:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:26:15Z krwq: pjb: I can only estimate its size since the task says 1k is max but in C++ I also don't preallocate and it manages to pass with all reallocs 2017-10-29T04:26:50Z krwq: so you say to simply use 1k? I can't read the input twice to know exact sizes 2017-10-29T04:27:36Z pjb: Yes. If you have such a maximum size, use it to pre-allocate. 2017-10-29T04:27:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:28:00Z pjb: Then you can use a 2D array instead of a vector of vectors. It'll be much faster to allocate. But you will need to manage your own fill pointers. 2017-10-29T04:30:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:30:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:30:36Z krwq: managing my own fill pointers? isn't there better way than hacking this around so much? I could technically put a fill pointer as a first element but that sounds awful 2017-10-29T04:30:48Z krwq: I've previously used regular list but that was also too slow 2017-10-29T04:30:54Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:31:05Z pjb: No, it is ok. 2017-10-29T04:31:31Z pjb: On the other hand, you can stay with vector of vector, since the allocation is only done once outside of the main loops. 2017-10-29T04:32:17Z aeth: If you want to use a 1D array to store 2D data and you cannot use 2D arrays, you can either write your own aref or write your own way to calculate the proper index and feed that into aref. Both can be inlined functions. I've had to do both before. 2017-10-29T04:33:29Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T04:33:42Z krwq: is it possible to set fill pointer by hand? i can try putting both allocations outside the loop 2017-10-29T04:33:53Z pjb: Yes. 2017-10-29T04:34:08Z krwq: is it setf-able? 2017-10-29T04:34:11Z pjb: Yes. 2017-10-29T04:35:10Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:36:07Z beach: krwq: If the bottleneck is in the vector extension, you can try something simple like giving an optional extension value that is high-ish, like 100 or 1000. 2017-10-29T04:36:42Z pjb: Well, since the max is 1000, better to just allocate that from the start. 2017-10-29T04:36:49Z beach: krwq: You could also try to speed things up by declaring the type of the visited vector in count-visited. 2017-10-29T04:36:58Z beach: Oh, sure, yes. 2017-10-29T04:37:05Z beach: Missed that. Sorry. 2017-10-29T04:38:00Z krwq: beach: I'll start with putting allocations before everything and try that next if it doesn't pass - thanks 2017-10-29T04:38:14Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:38:55Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:41:09Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:43:04Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T04:49:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:49:23Z krwq: still not passing with outer-loop allocation, I'll try with declaring types but I might need some help here 2017-10-29T04:49:38Z krwq: i.e. how do i declare that the type read from (read) is fixnum? 2017-10-29T04:50:11Z pjb: (the fixnum (read)) 2017-10-29T04:50:38Z pjb: If it is not fixnum you will probably get a crash just like in C… 2017-10-29T04:50:52Z turkja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T04:51:07Z krwq: does it make sense to declare fixnums in dotimes loop? 2017-10-29T04:51:27Z krwq: i.e. (dotimes (i n) (declare (type fixnum i)) ...) 2017-10-29T04:51:54Z pjb: It cannot hurt much anyways. 2017-10-29T04:54:16Z krwq: how do i declare fixnums for var used like: (loop for var ....) 2017-10-29T04:55:04Z pjb: Perhaps you could try to read the clhs? 2017-10-29T04:56:06Z pjb: The nice thing when reading references, is that in addition to learn about your specific question, you may read something more and learn more ;-) 2017-10-29T04:56:06Z anunnaki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T04:59:28Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:03:16Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:07:47Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-29T05:08:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:10:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:13:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:15:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:15:29Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:17:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:18:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:20:21Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:35:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:36:41Z jasom: on sbcl, at least, do not use fill pointers or extensible vectors if performane is a concern; that makes them non simple-array and non-simple arrays are considerably slower. 2017-10-29T05:37:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:38:09Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:40:56Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T05:42:00Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T05:43:45Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T05:44:39Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:47:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:48:05Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:51:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:53:03Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:53:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:54:51Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:56:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T05:58:32Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2017-10-29T05:58:59Z krwq: here is my last version which is still exceeding time limit: https://ideone.com/Mgf7s8 - i have converted all vectors to simple-arrays and store sizes - i get once compiler warning about inline fixnum arithmetic but not a clue how to fix that 2017-10-29T05:59:08Z krwq: one* 2017-10-29T05:59:53Z krwq: code looks horrible with all of these declares 2017-10-29T06:01:15Z krwq: any more advices? It's bummer my first version in C++ fits in time without trying to optimize it and here even with all of these weird declares still time limit exceeded 2017-10-29T06:02:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:06:52Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-29T06:08:33Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:09:31Z krwq: maybe it's input reading 2017-10-29T06:11:37Z krwq: if you (let ((n (read))) (declare (type fixnum n)) ...) will it be equivalent to scanf("%d", &n) speed or rather try to read any lisp object and then throw if it is not convertible to fixnum? 2017-10-29T06:12:11Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:13:00Z ineku joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:14:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:18:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:18:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:18:58Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-29T06:21:38Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:22:27Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:22:44Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:22:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:25:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:26:57Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:27:26Z pjb: krwq: now, often the difference in performace between C and lisp is actually in the I/O. Does it read a lot of data? 2017-10-29T06:27:48Z pjb: The thing is that in lisp, we have characters, while C programs usually only work with octets. 2017-10-29T06:28:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:28:34Z pjb: So when you read, in lisp, it has to convert UTF-8 octets into characters (32-bit values), and then the string processing is done on vectors that are at least 4 times bigger than with octet vectors in C. 2017-10-29T06:29:13Z pjb: krwq: so one suggestion would be to do the same as they do in C: read buffers of octets, and implement a parse-integer function working on those octet vectors, instead of converting them to strings of characters. 2017-10-29T06:32:41Z brendyn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-29T06:36:15Z lambdice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:37:37Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:41:36Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T06:42:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:44:32Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:50:16Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:50:57Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:51:00Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-29T06:51:48Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:52:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:52:41Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:54:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:54:41Z mnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:54:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:56:25Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2017-10-29T06:57:21Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T06:59:27Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:00:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:01:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:03:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:04:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:06:11Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:07:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:09:17Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T07:09:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:10:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:11:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:12:31Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:13:47Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:14:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:16:15Z ineku quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:17:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T07:21:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:21:53Z takitus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T07:24:53Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-29T07:27:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:28:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:31:51Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:31:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:34:54Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:35:00Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-29T07:35:57Z KongWubba quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T07:36:59Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:43:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:44:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T07:45:45Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:46:56Z pedh quit (Quit: pedh) 2017-10-29T07:47:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:47:39Z pedh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:48:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-29T07:50:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:52:24Z pedh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T07:54:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T07:56:01Z KongWubba quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T08:00:06Z guicho joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:00:37Z guicho: good morning 2017-10-29T08:00:45Z beach: Hello guicho. 2017-10-29T08:01:56Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:02:02Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-10-29T08:05:33Z guicho: when I launch many tiny processes from uiop:run-program it randomly takes 1 sec while usually it takes only a few msec. I know process creation is costly, but this nondeterminism does not make sense. any idea why it is? do you think uiop:run-program has some predefined length of waits e.g. waiting for the process to die? I know GC is not the issue here. 2017-10-29T08:06:13Z guicho: hello beach 2017-10-29T08:09:21Z Shinmera: guicho: I don't remember seeing anything like that in the code and it doesn't make sense either. Have you compared implementation behaviour? 2017-10-29T08:10:18Z jackdaniel: guicho: maybe you exceed number of file descriptors available, so processes wait until there is some available? 2017-10-29T08:10:27Z guicho: Shinmera: Thanks, I should test CCL. 2017-10-29T08:10:29Z jackdaniel: that would be operating system limitation, not lisp implementation one 2017-10-29T08:10:59Z guicho: jackdaniel: I guess in that case the process dies of some signal 2017-10-29T08:12:15Z guicho: or maybe uiop has a clever process pool to circumvent that situation, but I guess it is unlikely 2017-10-29T08:12:54Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly SBCL's run-program can be really slow anyway. fe[nl]ix had a patch to fix that on Linux, but I don't think it ever got merged. 2017-10-29T08:14:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:16:05Z guicho: ccl was much faster and didnt have the problematic behavior. Somehow testing the other impl completely dropped of my mind. Thanks Shinmera! 2017-10-29T08:16:42Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:17:05Z guicho: my dirtylogman will be using ccl by default 2017-10-29T08:17:08Z Shinmera: Oh, hey, here's the patch: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/675#675 2017-10-29T08:17:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:18:36Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:19:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-29T08:20:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:21:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T08:24:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:25:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:25:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:27:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T08:35:01Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T08:35:59Z Murii|osx joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:38:05Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T08:38:24Z beach joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:42:08Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:51:08Z arquebus quit (Quit: Konversation disconnected) 2017-10-29T08:52:42Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T08:53:18Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T08:55:31Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:04:24Z zaoqi joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:05:56Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T09:06:21Z zaoqi implemented a Pure Value Pure Functional Sized Lazy Language 2017-10-29T09:07:26Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:07:44Z rippa quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T09:08:01Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:08:35Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T09:08:43Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:08:55Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:12:15Z akersof joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:14:15Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:15:27Z Guest46818 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T09:15:45Z Shinmera: #haskell is over that way 2017-10-29T09:16:32Z beach: Oh, but Haskell is a dialect of Lisp, right? And the name of this channel is #lisp, right again? 2017-10-29T09:17:00Z Shinmera: Totally 2017-10-29T09:19:31Z jackdaniel: why haskell is an acceptable lisp - the blog-blurp 2017-10-29T09:19:41Z Shinmera: Haskell is the best Lisp nobody ever made 2017-10-29T09:20:21Z jackdaniel: why ellipse transformations must be that confusing - day 3 (: 2017-10-29T09:20:39Z Reinhilde is now known as Ellenor 2017-10-29T09:22:52Z easye: Haskell makes my head hurt. But it is tres cool. 2017-10-29T09:27:25Z pjb: beach: ##lisp ∋ haskell 2017-10-29T09:27:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T09:33:56Z beach: pjb: I try to stay out of pointless debates involving the meaning of undefined terms. 2017-10-29T09:38:36Z easye: Ouch. 2017-10-29T09:41:03Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-29T09:41:29Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:41:31Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T09:41:54Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-29T09:47:44Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:01:26Z Zisper quit (Quit: Bye) 2017-10-29T10:03:30Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:06:32Z zaoqi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T10:19:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-29T10:19:37Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T10:24:03Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:25:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:28:10Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-29T10:31:22Z Edwrd joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:38:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T10:41:51Z shka_: gosh 2017-10-29T10:42:16Z shka_: sb-profile contrib to slime is so nice! 2017-10-29T10:43:20Z Shinmera: The slime-sprof contrib makes the sprof output actually readable 2017-10-29T10:43:31Z Shinmera: I can't figure out sbcl's standard report that it generates. 2017-10-29T10:44:11Z Shinmera: Of course, something like flame graphs would be even nicer. 2017-10-29T10:45:47Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:46:55Z easieste joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:46:57Z shka_: yes, that would be great 2017-10-29T10:47:08Z shka_: it can be done, i think 2017-10-29T10:50:42Z easieste quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T10:52:48Z shka_: it should be be done 2017-10-29T10:55:20Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:57:02Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T10:58:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T10:59:20Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T11:01:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:02:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:03:26Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:09:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:10:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:13:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:14:04Z scymtym: Shinmera: like this? https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/clamegraph3.png 2017-10-29T11:14:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T11:14:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:17:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:17:55Z Shinmera: oh, very nice 2017-10-29T11:18:49Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T11:19:11Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:19:13Z Edwrd quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-29T11:19:18Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T11:20:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:23:01Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T11:25:49Z scymtym: i also had this lying around for a flamegraph report: http://paste.lisp.org/display/359742 . it may be of more immediate use 2017-10-29T11:26:48Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:26:58Z EvilAngel joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:28:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:28:49Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:30:54Z margeas joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:32:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T11:33:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:33:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:34:29Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:38:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:39:11Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:41:32Z shka_: scymtym: this looks sweet man! 2017-10-29T11:42:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:42:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:43:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:43:56Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T11:45:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:48:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:48:49Z scymtym: shka_: thanks, but it's only a weekend hack for now. i have to make (and then wait for the release of) some changes in sb-sprof before anyone else can actually use it. mcclim may also need changes, but that's beach's and jackdaniel's turf 2017-10-29T11:49:12Z shka_: is that climacs, btw? 2017-10-29T11:51:16Z jackdaniel: mcclim 2017-10-29T11:51:51Z jackdaniel: curious thing is that I don't know how I did end up with solving differential equasion starting with minor clipping region fixes 2017-10-29T11:52:18Z jackdaniel: s/starting with/starting from/ 2017-10-29T11:52:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T11:52:56Z jmercouris: I'm afraid even with that correction, I still have no idea what the sentence is trying to say 2017-10-29T11:53:31Z jackdaniel: hm, at the beginning I was working on minor fixes of clipping region in McCLIM 2017-10-29T11:53:51Z jackdaniel: going down the rabbit hole I'm now solving a differential equasion for ellipses 2017-10-29T11:55:16Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-10-29T11:55:53Z Shinmera: Finally a use for all that university math. 2017-10-29T11:56:48Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-29T11:58:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:00:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:01:02Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-29T12:02:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:05:51Z Bike: why do you need a DE for an ellipse? 2017-10-29T12:07:47Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:09:14Z jackdaniel: to find its bounding box if it is rotated (not xy-aligned) 2017-10-29T12:10:57Z Bike: huh, i'm not sure how to go about that. do you need to like, solve a DE at runtime, or are you just doing it to find the algebra 2017-10-29T12:12:02Z jackdaniel: just algebra, I even have some basic blocks already implemented in the codebase 2017-10-29T12:12:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:13:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:14:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:16:57Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:18:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:18:10Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-29T12:18:54Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:19:03Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Isn't there an easier way to do it without differential equations? 2017-10-29T12:19:37Z KZiemian joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:19:47Z KZiemian quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T12:19:50Z jmercouris: For example, couldn't you start with the ellipse bounding box when not rotated, and instead rotate the box? 2017-10-29T12:20:07Z jmercouris: Then you could just use some simple matrix transformations 2017-10-29T12:20:53Z Shinmera: Rotating the box will make the corners stick out and give you an inaccurate bounding box. 2017-10-29T12:21:09Z jackdaniel: by bounding rectangle I mean a rectangle aligned to xy-axis. If you rotate rotated ellipse bounding rectangle, you'll have something different 2017-10-29T12:21:18Z jmercouris: Ah okay, I misunderstood that bit 2017-10-29T12:22:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:22:31Z jackdaniel: I've found excellent article which summarizes how to achieve all that, so it's not very problematic, I'm just too dumb to grok it all at once :) 2017-10-29T12:26:58Z shka_: jackdaniel: 99.99% of general population is 2017-10-29T12:32:00Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:32:27Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-10-29T12:33:48Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T12:34:11Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:37:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:41:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:44:20Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T12:44:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:48:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:49:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:51:26Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:52:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:54:20Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T12:55:51Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:56:25Z jmercouris: shka_: you didnt define "general population", what if the "general population" you are referring to is composed entirely of people who have completed PHDs in theoretical mathematics fields 2017-10-29T12:56:50Z shka_: on what earth general population is composed of PHDs? 2017-10-29T12:57:46Z jmercouris: shka_: somewhere out there in another multiverse 2017-10-29T12:58:11Z shka_: and how can you verify your hypothesis? 2017-10-29T12:58:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T12:58:26Z jmercouris: shka_: I can't, I'm just being pedantic :P 2017-10-29T12:59:15Z jackdaniel: 99.99% looks like a pretty random number too, if we are at it 2017-10-29T13:00:02Z shka_: *sigh* 2017-10-29T13:00:09Z jmercouris: Yeah true that, how did you arrive at that estimation shka_? 2017-10-29T13:01:01Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-29T13:01:34Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T13:02:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T13:02:45Z shka_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe921xOB-Xk 2017-10-29T13:03:18Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T13:04:36Z Bike: you know, you don't /have/ to think of some "pedantic" objection to any possible use of language. 2017-10-29T13:05:52Z stnutt joined #lisp 2017-10-29T13:07:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T13:09:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T13:11:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T13:11:48Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T13:15:54Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T13:22:18Z jmercouris: Bike: It was a joke, unless of course you are referring to the other interaction with dim, in which case I strongly objected to that 2017-10-29T13:22:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T13:22:46Z 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seconds) 2017-10-29T15:19:32Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T15:21:11Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:22:35Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:23:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:28:20Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T15:28:30Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T15:28:57Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:31:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T15:33:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T15:34:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:35:09Z fikka quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-29T15:35:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:36:33Z danielglh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:37:07Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:37:49Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:38:37Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:40:11Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T15:40:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:40:58Z fikka: hi 2017-10-29T15:44:46Z iqubic: Hello fikka. 2017-10-29T15:46:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:46:07Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T15:47:24Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T15:48:28Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:49:40Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:50:01Z zmt00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T15:50:25Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:50:28Z malice: How do we usually write class names in Common Lisp? 2017-10-29T15:50:41Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T15:50:43Z beach: class-name 2017-10-29T15:50:57Z malice: looks like it's convention for everything then 2017-10-29T15:50:59Z malice: thanks! 2017-10-29T15:51:06Z beach: Sure. 2017-10-29T15:51:18Z beach: Just like most other names that aren't special variables or constants. 2017-10-29T15:51:51Z Guest61180 is now known as pax 2017-10-29T15:52:21Z pax is now known as Guest14745 2017-10-29T15:54:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:57:45Z xayto joined #lisp 2017-10-29T15:57:48Z sanou572_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T15:57:55Z jackdaniel: another convetion (which could be met in the existing codebases) is naming classes 2017-10-29T15:58:06Z jackdaniel: s/the ex/ex/ 2017-10-29T15:59:39Z beach: I believe that convention was invented by Dylan. I will use it for Common Lisp when it become way more widespread than it currently is. 2017-10-29T15:59:41Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:00:42Z iqubic: CL is not widespread? 2017-10-29T16:01:16Z beach: I was referring to the convention. Sorry for the ambiguous phrase. 2017-10-29T16:01:25Z iqubic: Ah I see. 2017-10-29T16:02:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:02:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:02:57Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:03:12Z xayto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T16:03:15Z fikka quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-29T16:07:01Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:07:02Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:07:11Z jmercouris: I see this here: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/ASDF.html but slime-asdf is nowhere to be found on elpa or melpa 2017-10-29T16:07:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:07:55Z Shinmera: It's part of the included contribs. 2017-10-29T16:07:57Z beach: Is it present if you install slime using the slime-helper library of Quicklisp? 2017-10-29T16:08:01Z Shinmera: So just add slime-asdf to your slime-setup 2017-10-29T16:08:34Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T16:08:50Z jmercouris: beach: I've installed the helper and still not present 2017-10-29T16:08:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:08:54Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:08:58Z jmercouris: Shinmera: How do I do that exactly? 2017-10-29T16:09:17Z jmercouris: (slime-setup '(slime-asdf))? 2017-10-29T16:09:31Z beach: Well, you will need the other stuff as well. 2017-10-29T16:09:36Z Shinmera: There should already be a slime-setup line in your .emacs 2017-10-29T16:09:57Z jmercouris: Yeah, it is, I'm saying, do I just append it to that list and it works? 2017-10-29T16:10:01Z Shinmera: yes? 2017-10-29T16:10:08Z jmercouris: Seems a little too magical 2017-10-29T16:10:11Z Shinmera: Why 2017-10-29T16:10:49Z jmercouris: idk, it feels like it should be some sort of setq instead or something, I've never "extended" a package in that same way 2017-10-29T16:11:01Z jmercouris: at any rate, thank you for your help 2017-10-29T16:12:14Z beach: So it was present all along, even with the elpa or melpa installation? 2017-10-29T16:12:28Z Shinmera: It's part of slime 2017-10-29T16:12:36Z Shinmera: Just not loaded by default. 2017-10-29T16:12:38Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah correct 2017-10-29T16:12:41Z beach: OK. 2017-10-29T16:12:55Z beach: Shinmera: I know, but I don't know what elpa or melpa might do to it. 2017-10-29T16:13:02Z danielglh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-10-29T16:13:09Z Shinmera: beach: They just package source from a repository, just like QL 2017-10-29T16:13:17Z beach: Got it. 2017-10-29T16:13:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:14:41Z danielglh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:16:11Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:18:25Z danielglh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T16:18:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:19:01Z danielglh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:22:01Z danielglh quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T16:22:27Z rsiwerz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:22:59Z danielglh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:23:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:23:23Z danielglh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T16:23:46Z danielglh joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:24:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:25:59Z sanou572 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:29:11Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:31:40Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:31:48Z sanou572 left #lisp 2017-10-29T16:36:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:36:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-10-29T16:36:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:38:27Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:38:59Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:39:52Z shka_: heh 2017-10-29T16:40:18Z shka_: i wrote that LOVELY subsequence metric algorithm in lisp 2017-10-29T16:40:37Z shka_: now i can actually understand what it does 2017-10-29T16:40:42Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:41:22Z shka_: people that use variables with descriptive names like "t" in scientific papers deserve to be killed 2017-10-29T16:41:48Z shka_: beach: you are not doing it, riiiiiiiight? :] 2017-10-29T16:42:05Z beach fears he does not have much longer to live. 2017-10-29T16:42:25Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:43:11Z alexmlw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T16:43:39Z shka_: well, not if you put such bullshit code in your book 2017-10-29T16:44:35Z krwq: how do you do something like (setf x (* x 10)) where x is a fixnum without promoting x to bigger type and allowing overflows? 2017-10-29T16:45:06Z beach: krwq: Are you saying you want modulo arithmetic? 2017-10-29T16:45:30Z krwq: beach: i do not want promotion, if module makes it faster that sounds good 2017-10-29T16:45:56Z beach: If it doesn't get bigger than a fixnum, you will be fine. 2017-10-29T16:46:06Z sjl: it won't promote unless it ACTUALLY overflows 2017-10-29T16:46:37Z shka_: krwq: you can just put ldb around * form if you want modulo 2017-10-29T16:47:02Z shka_: sbcl is smart enough to inherit types and stuff 2017-10-29T16:47:07Z krwq: I'm getting a warning: unable to do inline fixnum arithmetic (cost 3) because a result is and not a (values fixnum &rest t) 2017-10-29T16:47:16Z shka_: rithg 2017-10-29T16:47:36Z shka_: (the fixnum (* x 10)) is way to go here imho 2017-10-29T16:47:47Z sjl: krwq: the right way to do this is to declare x to be the numbers you actually know it's gonna be 2017-10-29T16:47:50Z krwq: that's exactly what I have currently 2017-10-29T16:48:01Z shka_: also, think twice before setting optimize to 3 and safety to 0 2017-10-29T16:48:06Z krwq: let me show you the code 2017-10-29T16:48:07Z sjl: i.e. if you know (* 10 x) will always be a fixnum because x will always be under 1234 2017-10-29T16:48:16Z sjl: then declare x as (integer 0 1234) 2017-10-29T16:48:29Z sjl: and sbcl will be smart enough to realize the result can't possibly overflow fixnums 2017-10-29T16:48:32Z krwq: https://ideone.com/fEoeN7 2017-10-29T16:48:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:48:44Z krwq: it complaints in read-fixnum: (+ (the fixnum (* ret 10)) 2017-10-29T16:49:26Z shka_: wow, that is a lot of the ;] 2017-10-29T16:49:47Z krwq: :P I'm new into optimizing :D 2017-10-29T16:50:06Z sjl: krwq: I mean, that function could potentially read something larger than a fixnum 2017-10-29T16:50:22Z krwq: just trying to get http://www.spoj.com/problems/TOUR/ pass - I got code in C++ and common lisp and C++ is passing and it's bugging me that CL gets time limit exceeded 2017-10-29T16:50:48Z krwq: sjl: it won't, I know the input restrictions 2017-10-29T16:50:56Z krwq: potentially yes 2017-10-29T16:51:32Z sjl: ... is reading numbers from a character stream really the bottleneck here? 2017-10-29T16:51:43Z krwq: I believe so sjl 2017-10-29T16:51:43Z shka_: i think you should exercise more practical case 2017-10-29T16:52:19Z krwq: shka_: could you be more specific? 2017-10-29T16:52:40Z Guest14745 is now known as pax 2017-10-29T16:52:47Z krwq: i can share both passing C++ and full common lisp so you can tell if you got any advices 2017-10-29T16:53:05Z shka_: generic integer operations won't dominate reading and parsing 2017-10-29T16:53:09Z pax is now known as Guest23747 2017-10-29T16:53:14Z shka_: so why do you even bother 2017-10-29T16:53:30Z sjl: share your profiling result so we can see that reading numbers is actually the bottleneck 2017-10-29T16:53:35Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T16:53:57Z shka_: if you really want to optimize something, try some sequence operations (for instance) 2017-10-29T16:54:51Z krwq: Passing C++: https://ideone.com/kT7Rqh CL: https://ideone.com/4fUw8M - I do not know what inputs is spoj using to get profiling and I do not think I can generate random tricky data that quickly 2017-10-29T16:56:00Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T16:56:01Z krwq: I've commented out safety and call to (tour) since this is destroying my instance of sbcl 2017-10-29T16:57:33Z krwq: CL should be even faster in theory since I've put allocations outside of the loop so it reuses buffers for other testcases 2017-10-29T16:57:51Z shka_: rarely useful honestly… 2017-10-29T16:58:19Z shka_: got to go, by 2017-10-29T16:58:31Z krwq: bye bye 2017-10-29T16:59:21Z krwq: any advices on this? 2017-10-29T16:59:35Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:00:12Z shka_: other than do something useful? ;-) 2017-10-29T17:00:38Z cromachina_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:00:44Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:00:47Z Chream quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T17:01:02Z krwq: learning to write fast code is useful 2017-10-29T17:01:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:01:38Z iqubic: I don't know how to do that. 2017-10-29T17:02:56Z cromachina quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:03:39Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:03:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:03:49Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:03:51Z SaganMan: hello peeps 2017-10-29T17:03:57Z krwq: hello 2017-10-29T17:04:23Z sjl: krwq: even with a 100% naive implementation I can read over two million numbers in a second on SBCL: http://paste.stevelosh.com/59f609b3c152b2000800b120 2017-10-29T17:04:25Z sjl: that would be a big "tournament" 2017-10-29T17:05:04Z krwq: sjl: on spoj 1 mil / s is likely time limit exceeded 2017-10-29T17:05:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:05:30Z sjl: it's giving you more than millions of numbers in a single test? 2017-10-29T17:05:37Z iqubic_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:05:42Z krwq: this one should be around 1 milion 2017-10-29T17:05:50Z krwq: and time limit is likely 1s 2017-10-29T17:06:20Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:06:50Z krwq: I've seen many tasks where they give you 20M numbers on input 2017-10-29T17:07:28Z sjl: generate some test data, run your solution, profile to see what's actually slow 2017-10-29T17:07:40Z SaganMan: some time back someone gave me a link to iterations in cl 2017-10-29T17:07:47Z SaganMan: does anyone remember? 2017-10-29T17:07:53Z sjl: trying to optimize when you haven't profiled is madness 2017-10-29T17:07:59Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:07:59Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:09:22Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:09:56Z sjl: SaganMan: "iterations in cl" not sure what this means? 2017-10-29T17:10:07Z sjl: you mean the iterate library itself? https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/index.html 2017-10-29T17:11:03Z SaganMan: yeah, thanks sjl 2017-10-29T17:11:37Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:12:10Z SaganMan: btw, why does lisp have so many functions/macros like apply, funcall, mapcar, map.. 2017-10-29T17:12:59Z krwq: some are essential, some are convenience 2017-10-29T17:13:23Z SaganMan: I like them, they're handy 2017-10-29T17:13:33Z SaganMan: better than writing loops 2017-10-29T17:16:55Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T17:17:16Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:18:06Z krwq: sjl: ok, got some dummy input with many numbers 2017-10-29T17:18:17Z krwq: how do i profile that in CL 2017-10-29T17:18:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:20:07Z sjl: krwq: which implementation? 2017-10-29T17:20:20Z sjl: also here's a thing to randomly generate a test http://paste.stevelosh.com/59f60dbec152b2000800b122 2017-10-29T17:20:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:20:32Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:20:38Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:21:56Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:22:01Z alexmlw quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T17:22:28Z sjl: if it's SBCL, you use sb-sprof. the interface is a bit unwieldy -- I have a few macros I use to make it less annoying to use: https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/losh.lisp#L2342-L2386 2017-10-29T17:22:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:22:54Z sjl: then I just do (profile (thing-that-takes-a-longass-time)) and when it finished, open lisp.prof 2017-10-29T17:23:10Z iqubic: I use SBCL. 2017-10-29T17:26:35Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:31:32Z KongWubba quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:32:21Z krwq: sjl: thanks, the input has always 1 solution but should be fine for now - I do not have function/macro profile 2017-10-29T17:33:21Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:35:11Z sjl: krwq: right, I pasted the code where I define `profile` 2017-10-29T17:35:27Z sjl: you could copy/paste that, or look at it to see how to use SBCL's internal bits to do what it's doing 2017-10-29T17:36:00Z krwq: sjl: ok I did slime-toggle-profile-fdefinition 2017-10-29T17:36:14Z sjl: though that code might require nonstandard stuff that's elsewhere in my utils, I dunno 2017-10-29T17:36:23Z sjl: yeah I think slime has some kind of built-in profiler thing 2017-10-29T17:36:27Z sjl: that would probably work too 2017-10-29T17:36:47Z krwq: but this is not helping much, it only shows which function took how much 2017-10-29T17:37:01Z krwq: which shows me that tour took most of the time 2017-10-29T17:37:05Z krwq: which is not helping 2017-10-29T17:37:26Z krwq: at least I can see it's likely not input 2017-10-29T17:37:33Z krwq: hopefullyt= 2017-10-29T17:37:49Z sjl: yeah, it rules out read-fixnum 2017-10-29T17:38:24Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:38:26Z sjl: profiling like this generally works better when you've split the problem into small(ish) functions 2017-10-29T17:38:35Z sjl: a 40-line monster like that is tougher to profile 2017-10-29T17:38:51Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:39:15Z krwq: it was 10 before i added all declares... 2017-10-29T17:40:04Z krwq: besides I'm not sure how to split it? read-input, get result? there is not much happening there 2017-10-29T17:40:05Z sjl: I count 11 declares... 40-11 = 10? 2017-10-29T17:40:06Z sjl: :) 2017-10-29T17:40:39Z krwq: yeh, but I've split some let because I wasn't sure if I can use declare with let* 2017-10-29T17:40:53Z krwq: and then added some boilerplate to not allocate 2017-10-29T17:41:39Z krwq: lol, ive turned on profiling for whole cl-user package but now it is extremely slow 2017-10-29T17:42:27Z sjl: you can use declare with let* 2017-10-29T17:42:46Z krwq: do you have some package where i can simply tell (profile expr) 2017-10-29T17:43:13Z sjl: are you using sbcl? 2017-10-29T17:43:18Z krwq: yes 2017-10-29T17:43:19Z sjl: if so, yes: the link I pasted 2017-10-29T17:43:23Z sjl: is the code for my profile macro 2017-10-29T17:43:34Z krwq: missed it - thanks! 2017-10-29T17:43:48Z sjl: which also uses this function https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/vendor/quickutils.lisp#L226-L231 2017-10-29T17:45:07Z sjl: but yeah, let* works just fine with declare. e.g. this turns into fixnum addition http://paste.stevelosh.com/59f6130dc152b2000800b123 2017-10-29T17:45:25Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-29T17:47:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:49:48Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:51:33Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-29T17:52:04Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T17:53:35Z Guest23747 is now known as pax 2017-10-29T17:54:05Z pax is now known as Guest9139 2017-10-29T17:57:03Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:03:15Z krwq: sjl: I do not have sb-sprof - I can see sb-profile but it requires names for the profile function 2017-10-29T18:04:05Z SaganMan quit (Quit: laters) 2017-10-29T18:06:31Z krwq: ok, trying again with slime but have reduced timing so it doesn't take forever - will play around with your thing later 2017-10-29T18:06:50Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T18:07:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T18:08:08Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:08:10Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T18:08:15Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:08:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T18:14:38Z krwq: ok, it shows me that reading takes most of the time, I'll try changing that back to (read) and see if this improves 2017-10-29T18:19:14Z krwq: ok, my version of reading numbers is almost twice slower than (read) but still that's a bottleneck - everything else is 0 comparing to that 2017-10-29T18:20:47Z asarch joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:27:38Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:28:18Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-29T18:32:28Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:34:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:40:13Z safe joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:41:26Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:42:59Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:43:31Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:47:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-29T18:49:12Z jmercouris: so mcclim doesn't actually use native widgets right, it just draws to some sort of "canvas" that depends on the OS it is ported to yeah? 2017-10-29T18:49:37Z jmercouris: so every port requires just writing some sort of compaitiblity layer written, and all the widgets will look the same across different OS? 2017-10-29T18:54:31Z Guest9139 is now known as pax 2017-10-29T18:55:01Z pax is now known as Guest62331 2017-10-29T18:58:32Z KongWubba2 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:02:29Z KongWubba quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T19:05:49Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T19:10:39Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T19:12:54Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T19:14:47Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:19:04Z Chream joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:23:15Z takitus joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:37:57Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:38:02Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:38:05Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T19:40:43Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:43:43Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:47:06Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:53:40Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T19:53:52Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T19:54:45Z joga quit (Changing host) 2017-10-29T19:54:45Z joga joined #lisp 2017-10-29T19:55:09Z Guest62331 is now known as pax 2017-10-29T19:55:39Z pax is now known as Guest65324 2017-10-29T19:55:53Z aeth: What's the best way to split a list into two lists? e.g. (loop for item in '(1 2 3 4 5) if (< item 3) collect item into foo else collect item into bar finally (return (values foo bar))) 2017-10-29T19:56:22Z aeth: Splitting by conditionals, not by position, it's just a coincidence that this toy example is ordered. 2017-10-29T19:57:53Z aeth: better example: (loop for item in '(1 2 3 4 5) if (evenp item) collect item into evens else collect item into odds finally (return (values evens odds))) 2017-10-29T19:58:54Z aeth: Essentially a double filter, with remove-if and remove-if-not combined into one iteration because both results are needed and this halves the iteration 2017-10-29T19:59:45Z shka_: aeth: your way works, right? 2017-10-29T20:00:03Z shka_: you can also use juxt of serapeum (works like juxt from clojure) 2017-10-29T20:00:17Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T20:00:46Z aeth: shka_: Yeah, I'm just wondering if I am using the wrong way. Last time I crafted a clever loop it turns out there was a built-in function that did the same thing, faster. 2017-10-29T20:01:02Z shka_: nah 2017-10-29T20:01:05Z shka_: not this time 2017-10-29T20:01:08Z aeth: loop is kind of the last resort when there's no built-in 2017-10-29T20:01:12Z shka_: but i like juxt 2017-10-29T20:02:03Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:02:25Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T20:04:45Z malice: aeth: I think there should be some function that does that, probably called "partition" or something similar, but I don't think it's built-in 2017-10-29T20:06:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:07:24Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T20:08:43Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:09:22Z malice: I'm wrong. 2017-10-29T20:10:05Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T20:10:08Z krwq: which package contains mop? I'm seeing sb-mop but that's only sbcl, right? is there something in the CL itself or is it only through external package? 2017-10-29T20:11:49Z krwq: is this: https://github.com/pcostanza/closer-mop a good option? 2017-10-29T20:15:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:15:24Z malice: krwq: define "contains mop" 2017-10-29T20:15:57Z krwq: malice: I mean functions like (class-slots) 2017-10-29T20:17:50Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-29T20:17:52Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:18:27Z malice: krwq: then closer-mop is probably what you're looking for 2017-10-29T20:19:09Z malice: with fare-mop containing some utility functions built on mop 2017-10-29T20:19:29Z malice: Both are available in Quicklisp. 2017-10-29T20:20:19Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T20:21:11Z krwq: malice: thanks, I'll take a look at fare-mop 2017-10-29T20:21:12Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:21:58Z malice: krwq: be aware that fare-mop has only utilities(or so I've seen) 2017-10-29T20:22:13Z malice: things like #'class-slots etc. are available via MOP 2017-10-29T20:22:25Z malice: and each compiler introduces its own version of MOP. 2017-10-29T20:22:36Z malice: the closer-mop is a bridge between these implementations. 2017-10-29T20:22:46Z krwq: malice: I just noticed, I think I won't need that for now, I'll stick with closer-mop until I need those utils 2017-10-29T20:25:16Z krwq: malice: closer-mop seems to have some name clashes with common lisp - is that expected? 2017-10-29T20:26:22Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:29:20Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:29:24Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-29T20:29:30Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:32:31Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T20:34:05Z Chream quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T20:35:26Z shrdlu68: (values-list nil) 2017-10-29T20:35:39Z shrdlu68: oops 2017-10-29T20:39:05Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-29T20:41:34Z slacko_27448 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:41:52Z pjb: (multiple-value-call #'list (values-list nil) (values)) #| --> nil |# 2017-10-29T20:42:50Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:45:07Z _akem joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:45:40Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T20:45:55Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-29T20:46:35Z pmetzger quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T20:47:58Z slacko_27448 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-29T20:51:56Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-29T20:58:17Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-29T21:00:11Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T21:02:32Z pragmata joined #lisp 2017-10-29T21:03:55Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-10-29T21:03:55Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T21:04:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-29T21:11:01Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-29T21:15:46Z solene____ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T21:16:57Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T21:18:38Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-29T21:20:25Z skinkitten joined #lisp 2017-10-29T21:44:29Z solene____ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T21:50:03Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:03:45Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T22:09:32Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T22:10:21Z nast quit (Quit: nast) 2017-10-29T22:12:12Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-29T22:12:12Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T22:12:44Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-29T22:14:52Z KongWubba2 quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-29T22:15:51Z MrBusiness3 quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-10-29T22:17:31Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:29:01Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T22:30:13Z alexmlw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T22:35:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T22:38:41Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:39:04Z Devon: Any Polish lispers looking for work? 2017-10-29T22:39:37Z caffe: sorry, i'm only reverse polish, I'm afraid. 2017-10-29T22:39:37Z Shinmera: maybe try #lisp-pl 2017-10-29T22:39:49Z pjb: Devon: I'm half polish, does that count? 2017-10-29T22:40:24Z Devon: pjb: Sure, if you'll accept a Polish salary! 2017-10-29T22:42:35Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:43:26Z iqubic: Devon: Are you looking for employees? 2017-10-29T22:43:44Z Devon: Just one employee at the moment. 2017-10-29T22:44:03Z iqubic: Why? What do you need? 2017-10-29T22:44:09Z pjb: Well, I'm free lance, and for the moment it would have to be remote work… 2017-10-29T22:44:38Z Devon: pjb: We're all remote already. 2017-10-29T22:45:44Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:47:42Z Devon: Send your résumé to CV@beeches.org. 2017-10-29T22:48:17Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-29T22:48:29Z caffe: no u 2017-10-29T22:49:17Z ak52 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-29T22:49:20Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:51:42Z zagura joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:52:32Z phoe_: Devon: why Polish lispers? 2017-10-29T22:52:57Z caffe: because there's no such thing 2017-10-29T22:53:06Z caffe: there are only reverse polish lispers 2017-10-29T22:53:32Z p_l: caffe: there's quite many of us 2017-10-29T22:53:42Z p_l: ... still, we can fit in one minivan, I guess 2017-10-29T22:54:23Z iqubic: caffe: Except that lisp uses prefix notation, which is Polish Notation iirc. 2017-10-29T22:54:53Z Devon: One minivan? In that case every Lisper in Poland probably already knows about this job. 2017-10-29T22:55:10Z iqubic: Are we clowns or what? 2017-10-29T22:55:10Z p_l: :D 2017-10-29T22:55:12Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:55:14Z caffe: you're not even in poland, yourself 2017-10-29T22:55:21Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T22:55:32Z p_l: Devon: I guess it's a case of differing circles people run around in 2017-10-29T22:55:50Z caffe: i've seen polish coders do great things 2017-10-29T22:55:53Z caffe: with the atari 800xl 2017-10-29T22:56:06Z p_l: caffe: we had awesome books about atari 65XE :) 2017-10-29T22:56:16Z p_l: (the european version of 800xl) 2017-10-29T22:56:25Z caffe: nah.. just later version 2017-10-29T22:56:32Z caffe: we got 65xe too 2017-10-29T22:56:47Z caffe: same machine, just retyled to match the st 2017-10-29T22:56:49Z p_l: caffe: well, given the documentation I had, it was all 65XE and 130XE 2017-10-29T22:56:58Z p_l: caffe: there were some minor differences 2017-10-29T22:57:06Z p_l: and different ROM versions 2017-10-29T22:57:15Z p_l: the extension port was slightly different, too 2017-10-29T22:57:25Z caffe: ah 2017-10-29T22:57:40Z caffe: the 65xe didn't sell well here, which might be why so many of them ended up in poland 2017-10-29T22:58:14Z p_l: but the books from 1980s I found at my grandma's (previously belonging to my father) had complete, in-depth description of pretty much every bit and byte of 65xe 2017-10-29T22:58:18Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T22:58:26Z p_l: including OS source code 2017-10-29T22:58:35Z caffe: i've never seen an xe in the flesh, other than XEGS 2017-10-29T22:58:46Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-29T22:59:02Z p_l: I played once or twice on one 2017-10-29T22:59:03Z caffe: nice.. 2017-10-29T22:59:16Z p_l: the same book series also covered FORTH 2017-10-29T22:59:34Z p_l: as well as various DOS-es for Atari and other programming topics 2017-10-29T22:59:48Z Guest65324 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T22:59:56Z caffe: most all of the impressive xl/xw demos come from poland still 2017-10-29T23:00:01Z caffe: xl/xe* 2017-10-29T23:00:31Z p_l: I was born after PCs started to push out 8bit computers 2017-10-29T23:00:48Z p_l: though still encountering a computer at home was rare 2017-10-29T23:00:53Z caffe: ah.. i grew up with the apple II 2017-10-29T23:01:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T23:01:33Z mson joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:01:48Z caffe: PCs were emerging, but in the schools here, everything was apple II 2017-10-29T23:01:51Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T23:01:57Z p_l: Apple products were this weird niche that nobody cared about, depending on the year on the same level or lower than Amiga/AtariST, with AppleII pretty much unknown - at least from perspective of someone growing up in 90s 2017-10-29T23:02:00Z caffe: then macintosh 2017-10-29T23:02:31Z caffe: apple machines were the standard among schools here through the 80's and 90's 2017-10-29T23:02:42Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:02:48Z p_l: I heard Apple did a lot of push into education 2017-10-29T23:03:08Z caffe: yeah, they gave pretty big discounts to educational customers 2017-10-29T23:03:39Z capitaomorte1 joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:04:50Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-29T23:04:53Z caffe: PCs didn't really make it into homes here en masse until the mid-late 90's price wars between HP and compaq 2017-10-29T23:05:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:05:40Z caffe: before that, it was either people bringing their work machines home, or enthusiasts 2017-10-29T23:05:41Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-29T23:07:54Z tamburlaine joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:08:19Z nast_ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:08:34Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-29T23:08:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:08:55Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-29T23:09:09Z _akem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T23:10:03Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-29T23:11:43Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:12:36Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:13:11Z mrottenkolber quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T23:15:56Z ajp joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:17:37Z capitaomorte1 left #lisp 2017-10-29T23:18:08Z ajp quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T23:18:11Z ajp__ joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:18:14Z ajp__ left #lisp 2017-10-29T23:18:20Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:18:50Z ajp joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:19:50Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: Laters) 2017-10-29T23:20:27Z xeelad joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:20:57Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:21:38Z xeelad left #lisp 2017-10-29T23:22:35Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-10-29T23:23:38Z tamburlaine left #lisp 2017-10-29T23:29:25Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:30:59Z brendyn joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:34:57Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T23:35:21Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T23:37:44Z shrdlu68: Anyone have anything public they've done with MGL? 2017-10-29T23:37:46Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:39:15Z p_l: caffe: well, some of that here as well - my father got PC back during studies (a 286), which later got upgraded over time. Reason was running his own calculation programs, using AutoCAD, MATLAB, Mathcad etc. 2017-10-29T23:40:51Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68: what is MGL, a Multiple Grenade Launcher ? 2017-10-29T23:41:03Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T23:41:59Z shrdlu68: edgar-rft: Nope, just one of the machine learning libraries. 2017-10-29T23:43:27Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68: ah, this one? 2017-10-29T23:43:51Z shrdlu68: edgar-rft: Yes. 2017-10-29T23:48:05Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T23:50:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-29T23:51:27Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:51:50Z Jen is now known as Guest69558 2017-10-29T23:52:42Z tamburlaine joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:54:34Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:54:41Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-29T23:56:36Z tamburla` joined #lisp 2017-10-29T23:56:52Z tamburlaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-29T23:57:29Z tamburla` quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-29T23:58:44Z tamburlaine joined #lisp 2017-10-30T00:02:45Z tamburlaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T00:02:47Z tamburla` joined #lisp 2017-10-30T00:02:58Z pragmata quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I use that thousands of times per day :) 2017-10-30T00:48:59Z nast quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T00:49:40Z Xach: mfiano: probably!! 2017-10-30T00:50:02Z mfiano: :) 2017-10-30T00:50:12Z nast_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-30T00:50:41Z Guest69558 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T00:53:16Z shenghi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T00:53:29Z shenghi joined #lisp 2017-10-30T00:54:02Z nast_ joined #lisp 2017-10-30T00:54:28Z nast joined #lisp 2017-10-30T00:57:03Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-10-30T00:57:23Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-30T00:57:37Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T00:58:09Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:00:55Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-10-30T01:02:31Z {Leo} quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-30T01:03:37Z igemnace joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:04:01Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T01:08:41Z nast__ joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:12:29Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T01:15:10Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T01:15:42Z tamburlaine joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:16:21Z borei quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-10-30T01:16:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:17:42Z tamburlaine left #lisp 2017-10-30T01:18:06Z nast__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T01:18:06Z nast_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T01:18:26Z nast_ joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:28:56Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:29:16Z nast quit (Quit: nast) 2017-10-30T01:32:13Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:33:00Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:36:11Z toy1 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:36:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:38:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-30T01:44:54Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2017-10-30T01:45:28Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T01:56:47Z nast_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T02:02:33Z Jen joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:02:56Z Jen is now known as Guest18827 2017-10-30T02:06:13Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T02:06:14Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T02:11:01Z ajp quit (Quit: ajp) 2017-10-30T02:13:04Z {Leo} joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:18:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:21:52Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:24:52Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:31:07Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:32:41Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:33:33Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T02:34:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T02:34:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:34:56Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:36:02Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:37:51Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T02:38:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:39:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T02:40:10Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-30T02:40:38Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:42:42Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:44:05Z Guest18827 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T02:45:53Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T02:45:54Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T02:46:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:51:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:51:38Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T02:52:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-30T02:56:23Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T02:58:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T02:59:05Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T02:59:43Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T03:06:57Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T03:13:17Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-30T03:22:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-30T03:23:08Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T03:26:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-30T03:35:02Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-30T03:37:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T03:37:14Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T03:43:40Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-30T03:45:56Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-10-30T03:48:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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I hardly ever have to manually reindent. 2017-10-30T06:56:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T06:57:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:00:48Z loke: drmeister: I don't think there is a way to do that. 2017-10-30T07:00:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T07:01:37Z Shinmera: drmeister: If you ask for it to be inlined, it usually will be, unless you reach the inline expansion limit. If you do hit that limit you get a warning. 2017-10-30T07:01:39Z loke: drmeister: For a lot of built-in functions in SBCL, they aren't even inlines. They're actually defined as transforms 2017-10-30T07:01:55Z loke: Shinmera: That depends on optimisation level. 2017-10-30T07:01:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:02:23Z loke: Shinmera: I think with disabled optimisation (speed 0?) it won't inline. 2017-10-30T07:03:34Z Shinmera: It also won't inline in certain cases when debug is 3, as I've discovered for cl-opengl. 2017-10-30T07:03:40Z takitus|afk is now known as takitus 2017-10-30T07:04:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T07:04:04Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:14:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T07:16:01Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:21:06Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:27:53Z Guest89509 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T07:28:17Z Guest89509 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:28:38Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-30T07:29:46Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-30T07:34:54Z aeth: A fun little coding exercise. This approximates e from random numbers! http://paste.lisp.org/+7PN4 2017-10-30T07:35:49Z aeth: It usually gives me something around 2.71828, which is pretty good. 2017-10-30T07:37:50Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:39:50Z Zhivago: Circle in square? 2017-10-30T07:41:20Z Zhivago: Never mind -- that's for pi. 2017-10-30T07:44:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:44:38Z Shinmera: Here's a shorter version: (/ (loop repeat it sum (loop sum (random 1.0) into r do (when (< 1 r) (return r)))) it) 2017-10-30T07:45:18Z Shinmera: Unfortunately (loop sum .. until ..) doesn't seem to return the sum, otherwise it could be even shorter. 2017-10-30T07:47:54Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T07:49:12Z Shinmera: Using FOR it gets a slight bit shorter: (/ (for ((r repeat it) (s sum (for ((r sum (random 1.0))) (until (< 1 r)))))) it) 2017-10-30T07:50:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T07:50:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:55:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T07:57:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:57:30Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-30T07:59:19Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-10-30T08:00:47Z Zhivago: Loop is such a mess. :) 2017-10-30T08:00:57Z aeth: I can't get the loop version to run 1000000000 times, and it gives me 1.3264432 2017-10-30T08:01:29Z aeth: Off by one error, probably. And sum must cons or something. 2017-10-30T08:01:32Z mood quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-30T08:01:35Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T08:01:51Z krasnal_ quit (Quit: Wychodzi) 2017-10-30T08:02:04Z sword quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T08:02:24Z mood joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:03:39Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:06:38Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2017-10-30T08:07:31Z shka joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:09:46Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:10:07Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:11:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T08:12:14Z LocaMocha is now known as Sauvin 2017-10-30T08:13:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:14:33Z salva quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T08:19:20Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:21:08Z salva joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:21:53Z aeth: The true do version: (do ((sum 0 (+ (do* ((count 1 (1+ count)) (number (random 1f0) (random 1f0)) (sum number (+ sum number))) ((> sum 1) count)) sum)) (i 0 (1+ i))) ((> i iterations) (float (/ sum iterations) 1d0))) 2017-10-30T08:24:06Z aeth: Yes, that's a zero-body do* inside of a zero-body do. 2017-10-30T08:26:21Z aeth: Indented version at http://paste.lisp.org/display/359824#1 2017-10-30T08:36:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:37:09Z Ven is now known as Guest36397 2017-10-30T08:40:14Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T08:41:21Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-30T08:59:32Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T09:04:07Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-30T09:07:38Z alexmlw quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-30T09:11:29Z alexmlw joined #lisp 2017-10-30T09:12:49Z Guest36397 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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By that I mean that the trace is only taken into account in a particular chosen thread, but not in others. 2017-10-30T10:15:51Z Shinmera: sb-sprof can profile select threads, though that's not quite the same as tracing of course. 2017-10-30T10:16:03Z beach: Right. 2017-10-30T10:16:43Z Shinmera: sbcl's trace has a :condition argument you can supply, which allows you to specify an arbitrary form. So you could select the thread with that. 2017-10-30T10:16:48Z lieven: beach: lispworks' TRACE takes a :PROCESS argument. default is T for all threads. 2017-10-30T10:17:15Z beach: lieven: Oh, nice. I should read their documentation. 2017-10-30T10:17:53Z beach: Shinmera: That would be a possibility. 2017-10-30T10:20:58Z beach: The two mechanisms might work in similar ways. 2017-10-30T10:21:40Z pjb: beach: in ccl, you can use the extension :if something like: (trace foo :if (eq (bt:current-thread) *some-thread*)) 2017-10-30T10:22:07Z beach: pjb: Yeah, that would be similar to what Shinmera suggested about SBCL. 2017-10-30T10:22:12Z pjb: You can also write :condition instead of :if. 2017-10-30T10:22:39Z Shinmera: beach: Are you looking to make a library for portable tracing, or where is this question coming from? 2017-10-30T10:23:28Z beach: Shinmera: I am thinking about how commonly used Common Lisp implementation may or may not have to be modified to accomodate the facilities I list in the Clordane document. 2017-10-30T10:23:36Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-30T10:23:49Z Shinmera: Ah. 2017-10-30T10:24:58Z beach: Essentially, I think one thread (running the debugger) should be used to debug another thread (running the application) without interference such as traces or breakpoints that are always active. 2017-10-30T10:25:28Z beach: Otherwise, you would not be able to set breakpoints in system functions, or use the debugger to debug the debugger. 2017-10-30T10:25:56Z pjb: beach: there's also the question of *trace-output*, which may also depend on the thread (or be the global one in the given thread). 2017-10-30T10:26:10Z pjb: But perhaps you also want to debug the system? 2017-10-30T10:26:18Z pjb: or at least, trace it. 2017-10-30T10:26:21Z beach: Yeah, I haven't given much thought to the streams. 2017-10-30T10:27:05Z beach: pjb: The debugger functionality I have been thinking about is definitely tuned to debugging applications. 2017-10-30T10:27:29Z beach: A system debugger may require very different functionality. They might share some of course. 2017-10-30T10:27:53Z Guest89509 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T10:27:58Z pjb: also, the distinction between the system and the application code, doesn't correspond to threads. 2017-10-30T10:28:16Z beach: That's probably true too. 2017-10-30T10:28:16Z Guest89509 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:28:22Z pjb: If the thread calls a CL function, and that CL function calls the traced function, do we want to trace it or not? 2017-10-30T10:29:11Z beach: That's a good question. The answer is not obvious. 2017-10-30T10:29:41Z beach: Clearly, if the Common Lisp HyperSpec says that this or that Common Lisp function is called, then I think it should be traced. 2017-10-30T10:29:43Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:29:44Z pjb: ccl trace also has a :inside option for this I guess. 2017-10-30T10:29:56Z beach: But if it is a choice of the implementer of that Common Lisp function, then maybe not. 2017-10-30T10:30:12Z lieven: 11.1.2.1.2 forbids any tracing of a CL symbol 2017-10-30T10:30:18Z pjb: In general, for CL functions, indirect calls are not specified and not assumed. 2017-10-30T10:31:02Z beach: lieven: It does no such thing. 2017-10-30T10:31:22Z beach: It says "the consequences are undefined". 2017-10-30T10:31:27Z pjb: lieven: not exactly. It just say that it's not defined. The implementation may allow it. 2017-10-30T10:31:33Z beach: An implementation is free to define those consequences. 2017-10-30T10:31:36Z Guest89509 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T10:31:46Z lieven: indeed 2017-10-30T10:32:01Z Guest89509 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:32:08Z beach: pjb: Right, usually, it is not specified how a particular standard function is implemented. 2017-10-30T10:32:14Z pjb: beach: well, the thing is that if the CL function in question is mapcar or similar, and the traced function is the parameter, then we do want to trace it. 2017-10-30T10:32:29Z beach: Absolutely. 2017-10-30T10:32:32Z malice: Is making different SETFs specialize on new-value a good idea? 2017-10-30T10:32:39Z Zhivago: If you can trace by instrumentation the semantics may be much simpler. 2017-10-30T10:32:40Z pjb: I mean, it must not be considered a system function just because it's called from inside the system. 2017-10-30T10:32:47Z malice: Or are there some arguments against it? 2017-10-30T10:32:59Z beach: pjb: I agree again. 2017-10-30T10:33:18Z pjb: malice: It is possible. You can do it. 2017-10-30T10:33:53Z Zhivago: malice: Generally I would say that you should consider the semantics at the generic-function level and add methods which conform to those. 2017-10-30T10:34:29Z pjb: beach: in the case of cl-stepper, I added a (declare (stepper disable)) so that some functions may be ignored by the stepper (either because we're not interested, or because those functions may be called recursively by the stepper itself (like print-object methods)). 2017-10-30T10:34:45Z Zhivago: malice: That is, adding a method should generally not change the meaning of things -- just the implementation. 2017-10-30T10:35:06Z beach: pjb: Yes, I see. 2017-10-30T10:35:10Z Guest89509 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T10:35:36Z Guest89509 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:35:42Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-30T10:35:42Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:36:01Z pjb: So I would say that the problem is not tracing system functions in general, but tracing the functions used while tracing. 2017-10-30T10:36:16Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:37:05Z pjb: print-object is used by tracing, to print the parameters and results… 2017-10-30T10:37:17Z beach: There would not be any great harm in tracing even if inside a system function. It would just reveal how the implementation handles that system function. 2017-10-30T10:37:31Z malice: Thanks for your input, guys. 2017-10-30T10:38:13Z beach: pjb: Though in my scenario, a different thread would do the printing, namely the thread that the debugger runs in. 2017-10-30T10:38:41Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:38:45Z pjb: In that case, it's ok, and a good way to resolve the problem in general, it seems. 2017-10-30T10:38:45Z Guest89509 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T10:39:10Z Guest89509 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T10:39:22Z beach: Yes, or at least it makes it harmless to trace functions called by system functions. 2017-10-30T10:40:02Z beach: Though, now that I think about it, that is probably one aspect that would have to be modified in existing systems. 2017-10-30T10:40:27Z beach: I would suspect (without checking) that it is still the application thread that does the printing. 2017-10-30T10:41:08Z pjb: In existing systems, tracing is generally 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-30T16:49:48Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T16:50:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T16:53:13Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-30T16:54:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-30T16:54:21Z nika quit 2017-10-30T16:54:31Z Ven is now known as Guest45092 2017-10-30T16:55:20Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T16:56:12Z Guest45092 is now known as Ven`` 2017-10-30T17:01:13Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:02:28Z LocaMocha joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:03:30Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:06:39Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T17:08:43Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T17:09:08Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:11:45Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:13:52Z internet_cafe joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:18:09Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:22:38Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T17:22:53Z jmercouris: how do I export something from a package when the package definition has already been read? 2017-10-30T17:23:14Z beach: clhs export 2017-10-30T17:23:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm 2017-10-30T17:23:34Z jmercouris: aha, okay, thank you 2017-10-30T17:23:38Z _death: better to avoid that 2017-10-30T17:23:49Z beach: Yes, you typically don't want to do taht. 2017-10-30T17:23:51Z beach: that. 2017-10-30T17:24:01Z jmercouris: I'm just doing some testing right now, no worries :) 2017-10-30T17:24:19Z beach: The person who wrote the package definition probably had in mind what he or she wanted client code to be able to do. 2017-10-30T17:24:28Z jmercouris: It is my own package definition :D 2017-10-30T17:24:45Z jackdaniel: one of the possibilities is (export 'cl-user::foo (find-package '#:cl-user)) 2017-10-30T17:24:53Z jackdaniel: note, that this trick already interns foo in the package 2017-10-30T17:25:09Z beach: Then you should put it in the :EXPORT section of MAKE-PACKAGE. 2017-10-30T17:25:12Z jackdaniel: because you can't export symbol which is not there 2017-10-30T17:25:46Z shka_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T17:26:13Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:26:52Z jackdaniel: exporting symbols with funcions makes your code less readable for the programmer 2017-10-30T17:27:06Z jackdaniel: s/functions/export/ 2017-10-30T17:28:41Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-30T17:30:15Z beach: jmercouris: Your approach to building modular and maintainable software worries me. 2017-10-30T17:30:38Z jmercouris: Don't be worried, I'm testing an internal api :D 2017-10-30T17:31:25Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:31:55Z jackdaniel: beach: I think that such experimentations may end up with some evolution which could benefit the language (as something used by a community). Unlikely, but possibly 2017-10-30T17:32:41Z beach: I look forward to the report then. 2017-10-30T17:33:17Z jackdaniel: one example of such experiments is cl-annot (which I don't like it btw) 2017-10-30T17:33:33Z jackdaniel: s/it btw/btw/ 2017-10-30T17:34:17Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:34:33Z k-stz joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:36:23Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T17:36:24Z beach: Yes, for one thing it pretty much requires the API package to contain more than the exported symbols, whereas a very good way to structure Common Lisp code is to have a package with only the exported symbols in it, and then to use implementation packages that define functions, classes etc, using those symbols. 2017-10-30T17:39:13Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T17:41:12Z pjb: The main difficulty with export/import is that they allow for package and file circular dependencies. This is quite incompatible with asdf. When porting Patchwork, it took me a long time to remove all those export/import and remove all the knots in the dependencies between the files, to make the asd. 2017-10-30T17:42:19Z beach: That's an interesting data point. 2017-10-30T17:50:27Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T17:54:19Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:55:38Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:56:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:57:07Z vtcoo quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-30T17:57:19Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:57:56Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T17:58:19Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-30T17:58:31Z vtcoo quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-30T17:59:01Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:00:48Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:02:00Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:02:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:04:54Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:05:05Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T18:05:27Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:06:57Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:12:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T18:13:29Z Murii|osx quit (Quit: Leaving ya!) 2017-10-30T18:14:21Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:20:09Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T18:21:27Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T18:22:15Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:22:28Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-30T18:22:49Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:25:59Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:27:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:31:35Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:35:45Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:37:53Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:45:14Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:47:15Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-30T18:48:44Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:50:32Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:51:08Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-10-30T18:56:05Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:02:58Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:03:10Z jmercouris: What's the equivalent of C-r in a normal terminal, in slime? 2017-10-30T19:03:26Z jmercouris: When I say normal terminal, I mean something like uxvrt running bash 2017-10-30T19:05:08Z dlowe: type a bit and then M-p 2017-10-30T19:05:19Z dlowe: only does prefix matching, though 2017-10-30T19:05:42Z jmercouris: dlowe: It does the job well enough, thank you for the tip 2017-10-30T19:05:44Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:06:09Z Ven`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T19:09:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:11:51Z vtcoo_ joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:13:52Z vtcoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-30T19:15:33Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-30T19:15:45Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T19:19:55Z dtornabene_ joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:22:07Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T19:26:58Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:35:50Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:39:37Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:39:47Z pmetzger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T19:40:06Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:46:44Z jmarcian` joined #lisp 2017-10-30T19:46:53Z pmetzger quit 2017-10-30T19:47:07Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T19:47:19Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T19:49:48Z jmarciano quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T19:55:41Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T19:57:53Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-30T19:58:58Z vtcoo_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Is he here? 2017-10-30T21:20:04Z didi: Xof: I am enjoying your "User-extensible sequences in Common Lisp". Very nice. Thank you for writing it. 2017-10-30T21:20:28Z jmercouris: didi: You can use a minion to alert them as soon as they type something in the channel 2017-10-30T21:20:58Z didi: jmercouris: Thanks. I will query it so I can learn the commands. 2017-10-30T21:21:44Z bgardner left #lisp 2017-10-30T21:22:00Z didi: minion: memo for Xof: I am enjoying your "User-extensible sequences in Common Lisp". Very nice. Thank you for writing it. 2017-10-30T21:22:00Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xof when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-10-30T21:22:14Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Okay, it seems I'm missing something. 2017-10-30T21:22:43Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: Yes 2017-10-30T21:22:56Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: Which implementation are you using? 2017-10-30T21:23:06Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: sbcl 2017-10-30T21:23:20Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: are you able to load anything else via quicklisp? 2017-10-30T21:23:32Z shrdlu68: Yes, usually. 2017-10-30T21:24:24Z jmercouris: Hmm, can you post your full error in a gist or pastebin? I probably can't help you, but likely someone here can 2017-10-30T21:24:32Z Bicyclidine: i ihad no idea he was xof... 2017-10-30T21:27:43Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/epaar0mqAaDXHwYydZLc/ 2017-10-30T21:28:01Z shrdlu68: It seems to be a cl-cuda->cuda problem. 2017-10-30T21:28:23Z shrdlu68: Is cuda a hard dependency? 2017-10-30T21:31:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T21:32:46Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:34:38Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T21:35:12Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:36:07Z shrdlu68: It says it supports cuda, but not that it requires it, but it seems that it does require it to load. 2017-10-30T21:37:54Z Shinmera: ASDF doesn't do optional dependencies. 2017-10-30T21:38:36Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-10-30T21:38:55Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T21:39:01Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:39:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:41:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-30T21:42:21Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:43:21Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T21:46:29Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T21:46:32Z grumble quit (Quit: And it can't be outfought, it can't be outdone, it can't be outmatched, it can't be outrun.) 2017-10-30T21:46:40Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:47:54Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:47:55Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T21:48:23Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: I'm sorry, I have no idea, did you actually name your user foo? 2017-10-30T21:48:39Z jmercouris: or did you just substitute it for posting online? 2017-10-30T21:49:06Z sharkteeth joined #lisp 2017-10-30T21:51:22Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T21:52:13Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-30T21:53:11Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Substituted. 2017-10-30T21:56:47Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:02:12Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T22:02:28Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T22:03:03Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:04:28Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-10-30T22:05:23Z Guest9063 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-30T22:07:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:07:30Z iqubic joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:10:00Z sharkteeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T22:12:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:14:53Z emaczen: how much will blocking IO slow down the CPU? 2017-10-30T22:16:52Z edgar-rft: the CPU speed is completely unrelated to any IO activities 2017-10-30T22:17:11Z emaczen: I pretty much just have (loop do (some-function ...)) 2017-10-30T22:17:24Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:17:31Z emaczen: edgar-rft: What is the correct terminology? hogging the CPU time? 2017-10-30T22:17:45Z emaczen: I start getting lag in all other programs running 2017-10-30T22:19:04Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:19:18Z edgar-rft: this mainly depends on how the task scheduler of the operating system is implemented and how the Lisp implementation interacts with it 2017-10-30T22:19:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:20:45Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:21:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:22:43Z Xof: minion: forget my memos 2017-10-30T22:22:43Z minion: OK, I threw it out. 2017-10-30T22:22:49Z Xof: didi: thank you! 2017-10-30T22:24:04Z alexmlw quit (Quit: alexmlw) 2017-10-30T22:24:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:24:59Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:25:00Z Ven is now known as Guest73995 2017-10-30T22:26:17Z emaczen: Any common suggestions? 2017-10-30T22:26:41Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:27:29Z emaczen: I wish I could profile, but I'm using CCL and I don't really see anything like sb-profile 2017-10-30T22:28:56Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:29:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:30:00Z Bicyclidine: it seems to say to use external tools https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter12.2.html 2017-10-30T22:30:47Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: Yeah, that isn't what you want to see right? 2017-10-30T22:31:16Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:31:34Z didi: emaczen: I prefer statistical profilers. SBCL has one too. 2017-10-30T22:31:50Z Bicyclidine: it might be a bit less immediately convenient, but if an external tool can do the same work no need to reimplement it. 2017-10-30T22:34:44Z emaczen: I'm not sure I need to profile, but I want to know how much time is spent reading the socket vs being in that infinite (loop do ...) 2017-10-30T22:36:32Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:37:27Z didi: Integrated with SLIME, I might add. /me uses M-x slime-sprof-* frequently 2017-10-30T22:39:57Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:43:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:43:39Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-30T22:44:08Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:44:27Z jmarcian` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:46:17Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:47:42Z patche joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:48:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:48:15Z wxie joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:50:10Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:51:36Z White_Flame quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-30T22:53:50Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2017-10-30T22:55:56Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-30T22:56:08Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-10-30T23:00:47Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-30T23:02:32Z patche quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-30T23:03:29Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-10-30T23:03:39Z patche joined #lisp 2017-10-30T23:05:23Z Guest73995 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I wonder how such protocol would deal with retrieving elements from a collection, as `elt' receives an index but collections supposedly don't order their elements. 2017-10-31T00:24:38Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-31T00:25:01Z Bike: you have a "pick one" function, right? 2017-10-31T00:25:06Z Bike: you can just do that with the iterators 2017-10-31T00:27:49Z didi: Bike: Hum, interesting. I don't, but I should. 2017-10-31T00:28:06Z Bike: "you" as in the user of a collection 2017-10-31T00:29:09Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-31T00:29:24Z didi: So say my collection is a hash-table. I should have a function, (pick-one hash-table), that returns an element from hash-table? 2017-10-31T00:32:11Z Bike: something like that. you can use it to implement a map, or vice versa. 2017-10-31T00:32:59Z didi: oic 2017-10-31T00:33:40Z iqubic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T00:36:21Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T00:37:49Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-31T00:41:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T00:41:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-10-31T00:46:13Z toy1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T00:46:22Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-10-31T00:46:25Z vtcoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T00:47:59Z paul0 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T00:48:43Z emaczen: What is the most recommended way to profile with CCL on OSX? 2017-10-31T00:54:41Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T00:55:14Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-10-31T00:55:52Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T01:01:21Z Zisper joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:05:21Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-31T01:09:00Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:11:25Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:15:15Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:17:18Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:19:58Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-31T01:29:18Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T01:34:19Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:40:41Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T01:40:55Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:40:57Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:41:17Z pillton: What is wrong with the profiling information in the CCL manual? 2017-10-31T01:44:27Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-31T01:47:02Z sjl: pillton: from the docs: Apple's CHUD tools have been distributed with the last several XCode releases. 2017-10-31T01:47:11Z sjl: pillton: from https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Performance/Profiling_with_Shark 2017-10-31T01:47:13Z sjl: > Xcode ceased to ship Shark in Xcode 4 (released March 14, 2011), 2017-10-31T01:47:26Z sjl: "last several" may be slightly out of date 2017-10-31T01:48:24Z xfwduke quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-31T01:49:45Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:50:08Z davsebam1e quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-31T01:52:31Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:57:55Z sharkteeth joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:58:01Z xfwduke quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-31T01:58:05Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2017-10-31T01:59:01Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-31T01:59:40Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T02:03:45Z toy joined #lisp 2017-10-31T02:04:32Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2017-10-31T02:48:55Z emaczen`: if so I will try it 2017-10-31T02:49:46Z dvdmuckle: possibly stupid question, with clisp, is there a way to "import" a file of lisp code, and be dropped in at the REPL? 2017-10-31T02:49:57Z Bike: dvdmuckle: load 2017-10-31T02:50:13Z Bike: os x still has developer tools /like/ that. but for clasp we use a somewhat complex setup with dtrace 2017-10-31T02:50:14Z Guest79949 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T02:53:32Z emaczen`: Bike: let me know when clasp supports ARM 32-bit 2017-10-31T02:53:44Z pillton: sjl: Didn't Shark get bundled with Instruments? 2017-10-31T02:53:48Z Bike: not what i meant 2017-10-31T02:54:23Z dvdmuckle: Bike: gracias :) 2017-10-31T02:54:50Z pjb: dvdmuckle: note that LOAD is a standard CL function, it will work in other implementations too. 2017-10-31T02:55:14Z dvdmuckle: got it, thanks 2017-10-31T02:55:41Z dvdmuckle: there's no way to load a file at execution of clisp with a command line flag? 2017-10-31T02:55:54Z dvdmuckle: i looked through the man page, didn't find anything like that 2017-10-31T02:56:30Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2017-10-31T02:56:41Z Zhivago: See where it says lisp-file at the top? 2017-10-31T02:57:12Z pjb: There are 4 different ways to load a file on the clisp command line! 2017-10-31T02:57:28Z pjb: 5 even if you count shebang. 2017-10-31T02:57:57Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-10-31T02:59:00Z kmb quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-31T03:02:26Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-10-31T03:03:54Z dvdmuckle: sorry for my insolence, i'll consult the man page again 2017-10-31T03:05:11Z Bike: -i sounds like what you specifically asked for. 2017-10-31T03:06:35Z injunjoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T03:06:47Z dvdmuckle: mm, -i does it, so does clisp lispfile.lsp -repl 2017-10-31T03:07:12Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T03:07:18Z dvdmuckle: -i is less to type though, so that works for me :) 2017-10-31T03:08:35Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-31T03:08:48Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T03:09:04Z whoman: Roswell 2017-10-31T03:14:40Z chens joined #lisp 2017-10-31T03:15:03Z chens is now known as Guest68417 2017-10-31T03:16:10Z Guest68417 is now known as chens` 2017-10-31T03:16:28Z chens` is now known as chens 2017-10-31T03:19:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-31T03:24:21Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T03:24:43Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-10-31T03:24:53Z sharkteeth quit (Quit: sharkteeth) 2017-10-31T03:25:39Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T03:26:13Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-31T03:26:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-31T03:30:35Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-31T03:34:19Z Zisper: alias startupblah="clisp -i ..." 2017-10-31T03:35:28Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-31T03:39:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-31T03:41:27Z emaczen`: anyone know how to profile with iprofiler? 2017-10-31T03:41:59Z emaczen`: I created a file and opened it in instruments, but I don't lisp symbols... 2017-10-31T03:46:41Z king_idiot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-31T03:50:32Z jack_rabbit quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-31T03:51:00Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It must be a problem with what you do in each iteration. 2017-10-31T04:34:27Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T04:34:33Z emaczen`: that is the context and more specifically, the program seems to run fine for like a minute or two before it really starts to lag all programs on my computer... 2017-10-31T04:34:41Z scb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T04:35:03Z emaczen`: How much faster is loop than #'map? 2017-10-31T04:35:11Z emaczen`: map/mapcar ? 2017-10-31T04:35:29Z beach: It depends a lot, but it is at least as fast. 2017-10-31T04:36:06Z jack_rabbit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T04:36:38Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-31T04:37:00Z emaczen`: beach: Why would a tagbody not waste CPU time ? 2017-10-31T04:38:00Z beach: Because it typically turns into straightforward machine code. 2017-10-31T04:38:01Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-31T04:38:41Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-10-31T04:39:41Z mfiano: maphash is faster than loop's equivalent method, on at least the last 3 SBCL releases 2017-10-31T04:40:19Z beach: That's probably true only for traversing hash tables. 2017-10-31T04:40:29Z aeth: emaczen`: you can see what happens with macroexpand-1 on do and its variants (e.g. dotimes) in most implementations (loop's too usually implemented in too complicated of a way) 2017-10-31T04:41:04Z beach: I am guessing the LOOP version of traversing hash tables turns into with-hash-table-iterator. 2017-10-31T04:41:07Z aeth: the core iteration for CL is very simple, let over a tagbody with go (i.e. gotos) and an optional return 2017-10-31T04:42:36Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-31T04:43:02Z aeth: and you can program with the classic BASIC style in Lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/355473 2017-10-31T04:45:34Z emaczen`: anyway, I'm really stuck on figuring out why my program runs pretty well for a 2 minutes and then starts lagging my entire computer? 2017-10-31T04:46:01Z Zhivago: I would suspect something to do with garbage production. 2017-10-31T04:46:06Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T04:46:21Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-31T04:46:27Z jrm joined #lisp 2017-10-31T04:46:27Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T04:47:47Z aeth: emaczen`: try (macroexpand-1 '(loop ...)) 2017-10-31T04:47:56Z aeth: e.g. (macroexpand-1 '(loop for i from 0 below 10 do (format t "~A~%" i))) 2017-10-31T04:48:00Z emaczen`: Zhivago: I'm not allocating anything big that I can tell... 2017-10-31T04:48:25Z aeth: in SBCL, you then have to macroexpand sb-loop::loop-body (just copy and paste it from the result from the previous macroexpand-1) 2017-10-31T04:48:25Z emaczen`: Zhivago: I already have tried to reuse some arrays etc... 2017-10-31T04:49:57Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-10-31T04:50:34Z aeth: emaczen`: Several ways to tell consing. Are you using SBCL? SBCL seems to have more ways to profile. 2017-10-31T04:50:45Z emaczen`: aeth: No CCL 2017-10-31T04:50:57Z emaczen`: It has to be CCL too, I'm using Cocoa 2017-10-31T04:51:06Z emaczen`: I am seeing one more thing to look at... 2017-10-31T04:51:18Z aeth: I'm not aware of the CCL profiler, but there probably is one. SBCL has several different ways to detect how much you're consing. 2017-10-31T04:51:27Z aeth: ECL's the one that's a pain to inspect the internals of. 2017-10-31T04:51:30Z Zhivago: emaczen: There's usually an easy way to measure garbage production -- you may be able to eliminate that problem easily. 2017-10-31T04:52:02Z Zhivago: If you can't measure garbage production, you might be able to change the arena size and see if it affects the time-to-slow. 2017-10-31T04:52:09Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-10-31T04:52:10Z jack_rabbit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T04:52:26Z emaczen`: aeth: people used to use something called Shark which has been replaced by Instruments 2017-10-31T04:52:33Z emaczen`: Zhivago: arena size? 2017-10-31T04:52:58Z emaczen`: aeth: I got instruments running, but it won't keep any lisp symbols so It is just a bunch of memory addresses.. 2017-10-31T04:55:02Z aeth: https://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#using-apple-s-chud-metering-tools 2017-10-31T04:55:15Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-10-31T04:55:59Z aeth: Are you doing it that way? 2017-10-31T04:56:43Z sjl: aeth: apple stopped shipping Shark six years ago 2017-10-31T04:56:49Z sjl: the docs aren't exactly up to date 2017-10-31T04:57:21Z aeth: ah 2017-10-31T04:58:34Z emaczen`: aeth: I was using iprofiler if you were interested 2017-10-31T04:58:45Z emaczen`: you can then open the file that iprofiler produces with Instruments 2017-10-31T04:59:27Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-31T05:01:17Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:01:18Z emaczen`: Zhivago: It might be running better already! 2017-10-31T05:01:35Z emaczen`: I wasn't thinking about garbage, and probably would not have thought about it... 2017-10-31T05:01:45Z aeth: If profilers fail, there's always disassemble. Unfortunately, CCL doesn't comment the allocations like SBCL does. You should be able to pick out a lot of them, though. If your problem can be broken up into many small functions, you'd be able to detect unexpected consing and might be able to rewrite that. 2017-10-31T05:02:11Z aeth: some key words to look for would be cons and alloc 2017-10-31T05:03:05Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-31T05:03:06Z zmt01 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-31T05:04:30Z xfwduke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T05:04:37Z beach: emaczen`: I am with Zhivago. If it slows down over time for the same type of processing, it is not the code itself. It could be garbage collection. It could be paging if you don't have enough RAM. Or it could be some quadratic algorithm you are using. 2017-10-31T05:05:18Z emaczen`: beach: I think Zhivago was right, I've running it right now and it is a lot better. I'll give it a few more minutes though 2017-10-31T05:07:36Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:07:50Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:09:59Z emaczen`: Zhivago: Thanks! It was garbage collection! It still hasn't slowed down yet :) 2017-10-31T05:10:16Z Zhivago: emaczen: Lovely. I missed your question about arena size -- did you get an answer? 2017-10-31T05:11:13Z emaczen`: No, what did you mean? 2017-10-31T05:11:13Z hsu joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:11:27Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-10-31T05:11:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-31T05:12:20Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-31T05:12:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:15:39Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:17:01Z beach: emaczen`: Most GC algorithms need a significant amount of additional memory (in addition to the memory used for live objects) or else they will run very frequently. Giving them more memory to work with fixes the problem. 2017-10-31T05:17:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T05:20:03Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:24:22Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-10-31T05:27:20Z xfwduke joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:27:45Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:29:39Z turkja: emaczen: what did you do to fix it? 2017-10-31T05:33:05Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:41:22Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-10-31T05:48:47Z caseyowo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T05:53:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T05:54:50Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:55:13Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-10-31T05:58:05Z scb joined #lisp 2017-10-31T06:00:35Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-31T06:03:42Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-31T07:39:17Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-31T07:39:54Z takitus is now known as takitus|afk 2017-10-31T07:43:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-10-31T07:46:34Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T07:47:52Z quazimodo quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2017-10-31T07:48:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T07:50:45Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:02:47Z dmiles: is there a way to get a list of compiler macros defined with (DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO ...) is clisp, ecl or sbcl ? 2017-10-31T08:04:10Z jackdaniel: dmiles: try compiler-macro-function for probing, if function has such macro associated 2017-10-31T08:04:12Z dmiles: is suppose do-all-symbols mixed with a call from #'compiler-macro-function 2017-10-31T08:04:30Z jackdaniel: that 2017-10-31T08:04:42Z dmiles: yeah i dunno why i didnt think of that before i asked :P 2017-10-31T08:06:13Z dmiles: what i am really trying to figure out is if thinkgs like unless/when/do very common things are written with define-compiler-macro 2017-10-31T08:07:00Z mn3m joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:07:07Z dmiles: if ever 2017-10-31T08:07:24Z loke: dmiles: what is it you want to do with that information? 2017-10-31T08:08:27Z loke: dmiles: I'm asking since SBCL specifically implements a lot of functions using source transformations, which beahves a bit like compiler macros but are more flexible and doesn't show up as macro functions. 2017-10-31T08:08:33Z dmiles: trying to decide if some of my bootstrap defmacros should become define-compiler-macro in my impl 2017-10-31T08:09:22Z dmiles: yeah i am doing very source-to-sourcy translations and not using my defmacro base 2017-10-31T08:09:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T08:10:08Z dmiles: and was trying to figure out if i should hide them as define-compiler-macro or hide them even deepr as you descibed loke 2017-10-31T08:11:07Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:11:17Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:11:31Z loke: You can use SBCL's DEFINE-SOURCE-TRANSFORM 2017-10-31T08:13:35Z loke: Or use DEFTRANSFORM or DEFOPTIMIZER. Plenty of options. 2017-10-31T08:13:55Z dmiles: i see i think i might copy DEFINE-SOURCE-TRANSFORM as it might be a better fit semantically ... https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/lisp_compiler.pl#L309-L320 2017-10-31T08:14:11Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T08:15:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:15:30Z dmiles: " a better fit semantically " as such types of transforms stays out of the way of common lisp 2017-10-31T08:16:25Z loke: dmiles: I see. You're implementing your own Lisp. Then yes. Take a page from SBCL's book. They do it quite well. 2017-10-31T08:16:28Z loke: IMHO 2017-10-31T08:16:44Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T08:17:57Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:19:01Z dmiles: ok neat .. its used a lot especially from contrib and such https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=DEFINE-SOURCE-TRANSFORM+&type= 2017-10-31T08:19:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T08:20:49Z loke: dmiles: It's used everywhere. Even basic functions such as CAR and CDR are implemented in terms of it. 2017-10-31T08:21:06Z loke: Check srctran.lisp in the SBCL sourcec code. 2017-10-31T08:21:15Z jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T08:22:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:23:25Z dmiles: very very very usefull 2017-10-31T08:24:40Z nick123 quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-10-31T08:25:27Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T08:31:41Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T08:34:12Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T08:51:20Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:53:32Z edwrd joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:56:57Z Younder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-31T08:57:48Z edwrd quit (Client Quit) 2017-10-31T08:58:00Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2017-10-31T08:58:07Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T09:00:55Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-31T09:02:27Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T09:03:47Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-31T09:04:45Z 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edgar-rft: I think for bitcoin you need bitcode... 2017-10-31T10:12:43Z pjb: well, for clasp, I mean, a llvm backend. 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now known as sjl 2017-10-31T13:49:10Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-10-31T13:55:39Z christoph_debian joined #lisp 2017-10-31T13:56:20Z christoph_debian: Xach: hi! is buildapp incompatibel with new asdf? 2017-10-31T13:56:32Z christoph_debian: "Package ASDF/SYSTEM-REGISTRY does not exist" 2017-10-31T13:56:51Z christoph_debian: .. or did I mess that up somehow 2017-10-31T13:56:54Z XachX: christoph_debian: I don’t know! I can investigate 2017-10-31T13:57:35Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T13:58:04Z Shinmera: christoph_debian: You could switch to using ASDF straight up for binary deployment. 2017-10-31T13:58:45Z jackdaniel: for binary building I recommend clon (net.diderverna.clon in QL) 2017-10-31T13:59:12Z Shinmera: Isn't clon for argv processing? 2017-10-31T13:59:52Z jackdaniel: it is all-in-one solution for building binaries (allowing creation of application synopsis and parsing) 2017-10-31T14:00:17Z sjl: Shinmera: it does both 2017-10-31T14:00:23Z Shinmera: I see. 2017-10-31T14:00:32Z christoph_debian: I use if for pgloader mostly at the moment 2017-10-31T14:05:21Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:06:10Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:08:32Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:09:20Z d4ryus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-31T14:19:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:20:33Z honix quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-31T14:22:12Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:23:16Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T14:23:44Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:24:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:24:20Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:24:39Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-10-31T14:25:30Z pfdietz left #lisp 2017-10-31T14:25:37Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:26:12Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:27:47Z WorldControl quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2017-10-31T14:28:57Z joga quit (Changing host) 2017-10-31T14:28:58Z joga joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:29:51Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:33:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:33:26Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:33:41Z danielgl_ quit (Quit: Bye folks. ZZZzzz...) 2017-10-31T14:35:33Z malice joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:37:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:37:02Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T14:40:07Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:41:08Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:43:04Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:45:06Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:45:06Z aijony quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:45:06Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T14:47:18Z swflint joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:47:22Z aijony joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:47:32Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:51:45Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T14:57:04Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T15:00:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:04:28Z juki joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:12:05Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:12:44Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:13:25Z dim: hi 2017-10-31T15:14:21Z dim: Shinmera: might be a good idea, will look into it 2017-10-31T15:14:37Z dim: I've used (uiop:dump-image *appdev-bin* :executable t #+sbcl :compression #+sbcl t) in another project 2017-10-31T15:14:51Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:15:23Z dim: I don't like uiop:dump-image interface much. Contrary to what UIOP does in other areas, here it doesn't abstract away the implementation 2017-10-31T15:15:36Z dim: in other cases like uiop:run-program it does it badly 2017-10-31T15:15:37Z Shinmera: dim: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/5jbsle/how_to_build_an_executable_with_sbcl/dbf74vt/ 2017-10-31T15:15:40Z dim: here it's like terrible 2017-10-31T15:16:04Z Shinmera: Terrible how? I haven't had any issues with it 2017-10-31T15:16:39Z dim: do you have project that you want to compile for both SBCL and CCL? 2017-10-31T15:16:55Z Shinmera: I've done it before 2017-10-31T15:17:43Z dim: took me more time than I care to admit before that would work 2017-10-31T15:17:50Z Shinmera: Worked out of the box for me 2017-10-31T15:18:08Z dim: the #+sbcl :compression #+sbcl t part wasn't straightforward 2017-10-31T15:18:35Z dim: and I really didn't want to have #+sbcl (uiop:dump-image ...) #+ccl(uiop:dump-image ...) etc 2017-10-31T15:18:47Z dim: maybe I should have done that, I now realize 2017-10-31T15:19:08Z dim: not a very good abstraction of the environment if I need to do that, tho, which is what I mean by terrible here 2017-10-31T15:19:18Z Shinmera: Doing #+sbcl for compression is wrong. SBCL might be built without it. 2017-10-31T15:19:45Z dim: not the case by default in both Macosx and Debian nowadays... you're still right 2017-10-31T15:19:56Z dim: what's the feature then? 2017-10-31T15:20:10Z Shinmera: I illustrate how to do it in the response I linked above. 2017-10-31T15:20:37Z dim: thanks, I see that now 2017-10-31T15:21:14Z dim: well I will have to test that then, but I've invested so much into a pgloader Makefile that would “just work” for non-CL users that I fear touching it at all 2017-10-31T15:21:26Z dim: it's not good, but that's what it is currently 2017-10-31T15:22:01Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:22:02Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:22:42Z Shinmera: I've been using ASDF's functionality to dump executables for years now. 2017-10-31T15:23:11Z KongWubba quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:23:53Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:24:06Z dim: so I should have a look at it now, and also look into listing asdf files to load so that I fix my --self-upgrade CLI option, while at it 2017-10-31T15:24:15Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:24:16Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T15:24:38Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T15:24:55Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:24:57Z Shinmera: You might also want to look at https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy for some added convenience. 2017-10-31T15:25:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:25:20Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:25:28Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:25:32Z dim: I think I had a look and still have that into open tabs ;-) 2017-10-31T15:28:34Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:29:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:29:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:29:57Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:32:26Z sjl: Shinmera: re: deploy, there seems to be some kind of chicken/egg problem with quicklisp 2017-10-31T15:32:35Z sjl: if I have a system FOO that :depends-on deploy 2017-10-31T15:32:58Z sjl: and I try to just (ql:quickload :foo)on a fresh machine, I get 2017-10-31T15:33:00Z sjl: Error while trying to load definition for system batty from pathname /Users/sjl/src/batty/batty.asd: Component :DEPLOY not found, required by NIL 2017-10-31T15:33:01Z nzambe joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:33:21Z sjl: if I manually quickload deploy once to get it on my machine, quickloading FOO works ever after 2017-10-31T15:33:42Z sjl: (I'm just using the config from the docs, nothing special) 2017-10-31T15:34:00Z Shinmera: sjl: you mean defsystem-depends-on? 2017-10-31T15:34:59Z sjl: Shinmera: I have both :depends-on and :defsystem-depends-on 2017-10-31T15:35:00Z sjl: https://github.com/sjl/batty/blob/master/batty.asd#L20-L23 2017-10-31T15:35:09Z Shinmera: You might be encountering this: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/108#issuecomment-110823939 2017-10-31T15:35:38Z sjl: ah, so defsystem-depends-on happens before quickload loads the vanilla :depends-on, which makes sense I guess 2017-10-31T15:35:54Z sjl: but is unfortunate 2017-10-31T15:36:54Z Shinmera: I've been able to circumvent the problem by making a proxy system that just depends-on the defsystem-depends-on and your "proper" system. 2017-10-31T15:36:54Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T15:37:21Z Shinmera: But uh, if your system is completely distributed through QL there won't be an issue. 2017-10-31T15:37:33Z Shinmera: It really only exists if you have the defsystem-depends-on thing locally, but not its dependencies. 2017-10-31T15:38:19Z sjl: if I distribute the thing I linked, ql would know to load deploy first? 2017-10-31T15:38:27Z sjl: (distribute via quicklisp) 2017-10-31T15:38:43Z sjl: cause if I just clone the project (batty/FOO) to local-projects, that breaks 2017-10-31T15:39:17Z Shinmera: Afaiu QL builds its own list of things it needs to satisfy to load a system, which is distributed with the dist metadata 2017-10-31T15:39:28Z Shinmera: So yes. 2017-10-31T15:39:49Z sjl: hmm 2017-10-31T15:39:55Z sjl: well that's better, but still not idea 2017-10-31T15:39:56Z sjl: l 2017-10-31T15:40:24Z sjl: can you expand on the proxy system idea you mentioned 2017-10-31T15:40:40Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T15:40:44Z sjl: are you saying I should make :foo-wrapper that :depends-on (:deploy :foo) ? 2017-10-31T15:40:45Z Shinmera: (asdf:defsystem my-system :depends-on (:deploy :my-system-really)) 2017-10-31T15:41:19Z Shinmera: While ASDF does not guarantee the order of dependencies will be preserved, it seems to work fine for me in the case where I need it (Radiance) 2017-10-31T15:41:34Z sjl: yeah I was going to ask, is :depends-on at the top level serial? 2017-10-31T15:41:40Z sjl: or is it just luck that the ordering works? 2017-10-31T15:41:45Z Shinmera: It might be reordered due to dependency tree resolution 2017-10-31T15:42:06Z Shinmera: But I think ASDF is deterministic nowadays, so if it works once and nothing changes it'll continue to work. 2017-10-31T15:42:23Z Shinmera: As in, if you have :depends-on (a b c) and b depends on c, c will be loaded before b of course. 2017-10-31T15:42:40Z sjl: well, sure 2017-10-31T15:42:42Z Shinmera: But if there's no dependencies between there's no reason to reorder. 2017-10-31T15:43:09Z sjl: but ASDF can't even process foo's defsystem until deploy is loaded 2017-10-31T15:43:21Z sjl: though maybe it can look for the deps 2017-10-31T15:43:51Z sjl: the root problem here is quicklisp not automatically quickloading things that :defsystem-depends-on, right? 2017-10-31T15:43:56Z Shinmera: What happens is that it looks for the ASD file for deploy first, which I think triggers Quicklisp. 2017-10-31T15:44:44Z Shinmera: I'm not entirely sure myself. I just know that it works like this for Radiance :^) 2017-10-31T15:44:53Z sjl: hah 2017-10-31T15:45:05Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:46:07Z xfwduke quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:46:38Z emaczen`: turkja: I'm not completely done, but I have a start and a pretty good one 2017-10-31T15:49:10Z random123 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T15:49:52Z zooey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T15:50:38Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:56:28Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T15:56:58Z nika joined #lisp 2017-10-31T15:59:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:08:48Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T16:09:07Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:13:41Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:16:00Z wigust joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:16:12Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:18:58Z Zisper quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:22:08Z shka_: hey guys 2017-10-31T16:22:14Z shka_: fare-csv vs cl-csv 2017-10-31T16:22:21Z shka_: which one is better? 2017-10-31T16:22:29Z Shinmera: vs split-sequence 2017-10-31T16:23:13Z shka_: riiiiiiiiiight, so i have csv file, i want to deal with it 2017-10-31T16:23:43Z shka_: i need something that will be reasonably fast, correct, and won't eat all my memory like fresh oyesters 2017-10-31T16:24:22Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T16:24:41Z shka_: eh, ok, i guess i will go with fare 2017-10-31T16:24:47Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:24:55Z shka_: at the very least i know that he knows what he is doing 2017-10-31T16:25:11Z Shinmera: might not be the same thing as what you want to be doing though 2017-10-31T16:25:53Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:25:59Z shka_: yeah, that's why i am asking 2017-10-31T16:27:48Z shka_: well, forst a start i see that it is using lists extensivly 2017-10-31T16:28:00Z shka_: but that's what cl-csv is doing as well 2017-10-31T16:28:56Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-31T16:32:32Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:32:56Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:37:07Z juki quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2017-10-31T16:37:24Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:39:57Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:41:15Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:45:41Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:53:47Z dim: shka_: pgloader uses cl-csv which is quite fine really 2017-10-31T16:53:52Z dim: pretty good I should say 2017-10-31T16:53:53Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T16:54:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-10-31T16:54:31Z dim: you can easily map rows to your own processing function, which avoids loading the whole CSV file into memory 2017-10-31T16:55:14Z dim: (cl-csv:read-csv stream :row-fn #'your-row-function-here) 2017-10-31T16:56:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T16:59:43Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:02:52Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:03:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T17:03:39Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:05:32Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2017-10-31T17:08:06Z sword joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:09:57Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-10-31T17:12:43Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:13:27Z mn3m quit (Quit: mn3m) 2017-10-31T17:20:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:21:06Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:21:21Z Ven is now known as Guest12701 2017-10-31T17:24:27Z whartung: split-sequence is not a substitute for CSV. 2017-10-31T17:24:34Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:26:49Z moei joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:27:02Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T17:27:28Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:27:29Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T17:29:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T17:32:18Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T17:32:55Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:33:49Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T17:33:55Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:35:32Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T17:38:09Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T17:38:20Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-31T17:39:21Z nika quit 2017-10-31T17:46:10Z dlowe: I've used cl-csv and been pretty happy with it. 2017-10-31T17:47:09Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-10-31T17:51:18Z vtcoo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-31T18:08:17Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:08:19Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:08:46Z shrdlu68: In cl-cuda, there are these two lines: 2017-10-31T18:08:47Z shrdlu68: #+darwin (include "cuda/cuda.h") 2017-10-31T18:08:49Z shrdlu68: #-darwin (include "cuda.h") 2017-10-31T18:09:40Z shrdlu68: When trying to quickload, it fails trying to compile because it can't find "cuda.h", which on my system is at /opt/cuda/include/cuda.h 2017-10-31T18:10:43Z shrdlu68: Why is this failing? I can work around it by simply changing the line, but I wonder if there's a proper solution. 2017-10-31T18:12:02Z nimiux_ is now known as nimiux 2017-10-31T18:13:44Z vtcoo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:13:53Z shrdlu68: The offending file is /src/driver-api/type-grovel.lisp 2017-10-31T18:20:29Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:21:49Z dim: is /opt/cuda/include in your standard include path for your C compiler? I'm not sure how to do that other than with -I on the command line, but it sounds like a PATH issue of sorts to me 2017-10-31T18:24:55Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T18:25:26Z skali joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:27:07Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T18:27:13Z LocaMocha quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T18:27:49Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:29:18Z shrdlu68: It's not. I've not worked with ffi before, is there a way to check the existence of a header file? That way a list of candidate paths can be checked in turn. 2017-10-31T18:30:23Z shrdlu68: Meanwhile I've gotten the thing loading by replacing "cuda.h" with the explicit path of the header file. 2017-10-31T18:30:43Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:32:28Z dtornabene_ joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:32:48Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T18:42:33Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-31T18:47:14Z cgay quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T18:47:29Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T18:47:55Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:48:21Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T18:48:42Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-31T18:49:16Z Guest12701 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-31T18:51:47Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-10-31T18:51:47Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T18:52:26Z epony joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:01:47Z adamvh joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:02:18Z adamvh: Anyone know of a library that does prime factorization? Trying not to re-invent the wheel here. 2017-10-31T19:04:22Z dlowe: (loop for i from 3 upto num by 2 when (zerop (mod num i)) collect i) ; done! ;) 2017-10-31T19:04:26Z skali quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-31T19:04:39Z shka: dlowe: name of the library sucks, though 2017-10-31T19:05:14Z sjl: adamvh: I didn't know of one when I started doing project euler problems a while back, so I ended up writing some prime-related stuff myself 2017-10-31T19:05:16Z sjl: https://github.com/sjl/euler/blob/master/src/primes.lisp 2017-10-31T19:05:45Z sjl: probably not the best possible implementation of various parts, but it gets the job done 2017-10-31T19:06:09Z adamvh: thanks, all! 2017-10-31T19:06:12Z sjl: it precomputes the primality of the first 100000000 numbers and stores it in a bit vector, for larger ones it does miller rabin 2017-10-31T19:06:41Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T19:07:27Z sjl: the fact that it gives the correct answer for so many PE problems gives me confidence that I haven't gotten it completely wrong, at least :) 2017-10-31T19:08:04Z adamvh: i only need to factorize small numbers actually, specifically numbers of MPI ranks 2017-10-31T19:09:40Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-10-31T19:09:43Z kuwze joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:09:48Z sjl: I'd probably just brute force it then, memoizing if necessary/desired 2017-10-31T19:10:01Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T19:10:02Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:10:42Z cgay joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:11:14Z sjl: dlowe: I dunno what that loop returns, but it ain't a prime factorization, heh 2017-10-31T19:11:38Z sjl: "All the odd divisors of num" I guess 2017-10-31T19:12:25Z sjl: "All the odd divisors of num except 1" 2017-10-31T19:12:26Z sjl: heh 2017-10-31T19:12:34Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:13:13Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T19:13:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:13:43Z kuwze: hey, if I created an accessor for a CLOS class, does that accessor pollute the namespace? as in I can't have a variable named the same thing as the accessor? 2017-10-31T19:13:49Z kuwze: I mean it seems that way for me at the moment 2017-10-31T19:13:54Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:14:10Z Bike: functions and variables aren't in the same namespace, but defining an accessor does define a function. 2017-10-31T19:14:21Z dlowe: sjl: the factors are guaranteed to be in there 2017-10-31T19:14:22Z sjl: kuwze: you can have a variable named the same thing, because the accessor is a function and so lives in the function namespace 2017-10-31T19:15:07Z sjl: dlowe: it doesn't return a factorization (e.g. plug in 8 for num, you get nil), and the numbers it returns aren't all prime (e.g. plug in 100, you get (5 25)) 2017-10-31T19:16:04Z sjl: generally when people say prime factorization, they also want the exponents (or repeat the primes the appropriate number of times) 2017-10-31T19:16:40Z kuwze: sjl: well it seems that my accessor can't access the variable (I get an error) when I do: (candles candles) where the first is the accessor and the second is the variable 2017-10-31T19:16:56Z sjl: kuwze: can you paste the actual code? 2017-10-31T19:18:26Z kuwze: sjl: sure, here it is: https://gist.github.com/kuwze/53887955cd17376f7971cb24597996c3 2017-10-31T19:19:02Z kuwze: yeah I thought there wouldn't be any confusion because it's type-2 2017-10-31T19:19:09Z sjl: kuwze: where define the clos class and accessor 2017-10-31T19:19:13Z sjl: *where do you 2017-10-31T19:19:27Z sjl: oh nevermind 2017-10-31T19:19:34Z sjl: the error says what's wrong 2017-10-31T19:19:57Z kuwze: sjl: it does? 2017-10-31T19:19:58Z sjl: "There is no applicable method... when called with arguments: (NIL)" 2017-10-31T19:20:10Z sjl: your candles variable is nil 2017-10-31T19:20:10Z Bike: you bound candles to nil above 2017-10-31T19:20:13Z Bike: and then left it there 2017-10-31T19:20:14Z Bike: so, it's nil 2017-10-31T19:20:16Z sjl: so it's trying to call your accessor on nil 2017-10-31T19:20:21Z kuwze: yes but it works if I renamed the candles variable candles-var 2017-10-31T19:20:29Z sjl: and nil is probably not an instance of whatever class you defined 2017-10-31T19:20:30Z kuwze: also I updated the gist 2017-10-31T19:21:38Z sjl: you're setf'ing something called "candles-created" 2017-10-31T19:21:40Z sjl: candles-created (make-candle-holder result-parsed) 2017-10-31T19:21:42Z Bike: you have, in instrument-candles, (let* (...(candles nil)...) ...nothing involving candles... (loop for candle in (candles candles) ...)) 2017-10-31T19:21:48Z Bike: so candles is nil. 2017-10-31T19:21:52Z sjl: but the variable you're trying to read is candles 2017-10-31T19:22:01Z sjl: which is never set by anything, as bike says 2017-10-31T19:22:03Z kuwze: but this version works: https://gist.github.com/kuwze/191b02982704f71842e1e35593548970 2017-10-31T19:22:26Z sjl: kuwze: yes, because now you're setf'ing candles-created 2017-10-31T19:22:29Z sjl: on line 53 2017-10-31T19:22:45Z kuwze: sjl: oooh that makes sense. I am an idiot. Thank you guys! 2017-10-31T19:22:47Z sjl: if you change it all back to candles, INCLUDING on line 53, it will work like you expected it to 2017-10-31T19:23:01Z sjl: it should probably have been giving you a warning when you compiled 2017-10-31T19:23:23Z sjl: the version here I mean https://gist.github.com/kuwze/53887955cd17376f7971cb24597996c3 2017-10-31T19:23:33Z sjl: where you setf "candles-created" which isn't defined anywhere 2017-10-31T19:23:42Z kuwze: sjl: thank you 2017-10-31T19:24:29Z sjl: sbcl gives me a warning when I try to do that. it's worth looking at every warning the compiler gives you 2017-10-31T19:24:35Z sjl: it really is trying to help 2017-10-31T19:25:26Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T19:25:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:25:49Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-31T19:26:05Z Ven is now known as Guest53736 2017-10-31T19:27:06Z kuwze: sjl: by compile to mean C-c C-k? 2017-10-31T19:27:11Z kuwze: you* 2017-10-31T19:30:39Z gigetoo quit (Ping 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joined #lisp 2017-10-31T20:03:06Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-10-31T20:04:27Z rgrau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T20:06:53Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-10-31T20:08:00Z fiveop quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-10-31T20:18:21Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T20:18:38Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2017-10-31T20:19:03Z king_idiot joined #lisp 2017-10-31T20:22:29Z jasom: kuwze: yes, C-c C-k will compile and load the entire file, plus highlight any notes/style-warnings/warnings 2017-10-31T20:23:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-10-31T20:23:11Z jasom: kuwze: also "warning" in sbcl means "This code is definitely wrong" "style warning" is "This code is written in such a way that makes it hard for me to tell if it's right or wrong" 2017-10-31T20:25:35Z Bike: that's basically what they're specified to mean in clhs 2017-10-31T20:25:51Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-10-31T20:28:25Z Guest53736 is now known as Ven`` 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2017-10-31T21:11:30Z Lord_of_Life quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T21:12:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T21:15:47Z kuwze: sjl, jasom: thank you 2017-10-31T21:18:19Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-10-31T21:18:46Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-10-31T21:18:58Z jasom: Bike: I thought it was fairly silent on what "warning" means 2017-10-31T21:19:42Z jasom: Bike: nevermind I found it in 3.2.5 2017-10-31T21:19:47Z jasom: clhs 3.2.5 2017-10-31T21:19:47Z specbot: Exceptional Situations in the Compiler: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_be.htm 2017-10-31T21:19:55Z caseyowo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-10-31T21:20:53Z jasom: the page for warning itself is not at all useful 2017-10-31T21:20:56Z jasom: clhs warning 2017-10-31T21:20:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_warnin.htm 2017-10-31T21:21:00Z Murii quit (Quit: Byee.) 2017-10-31T21:21:14Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2017-10-31T21:21:33Z Bike: yeah, because that's only what warning means in a compiler context, of course 2017-10-31T21:23:59Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-10-31T21:24:38Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-10-31T21:29:35Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T21:29:36Z sjl___ is now known as sjl 2017-10-31T21:31:24Z emaczen: Can you have a toplevel (restart-case (handler-bind ... )) form? 2017-10-31T21:32:51Z bitch joined #lisp 2017-10-31T21:34:41Z Bike: toplevel in a file? yes. but you can't put in a global handler binding, if that's what you're getting at. 2017-10-31T21:39:00Z adamvh: There's a library function that finds the position of the max in a list, right? 2017-10-31T21:39:13Z emaczen: (max your-list) 2017-10-31T21:39:25Z emaczen: (apply #'max your-list) -- sorry 2017-10-31T21:40:32Z emaczen: Bike: Yes, I wanted to put a global handler binding -- mayble I'll put the restart and handler in an around method and then call the function I wanted 2017-10-31T21:40:39Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2017-10-31T21:41:29Z adamvh: that doesn't give me the index of the element, though 2017-10-31T21:41:41Z Bike: adamvh: unfortunately there is not. 2017-10-31T21:41:56Z Bike: there's one in alexandria, i think. 2017-10-31T21:43:48Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-10-31T21:44:11Z Ven is now known as Guest77569 2017-10-31T21:52:10Z okflo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T21:52:22Z jasom: also, iterate lets you get the maximum position reasonably concisely IRC 2017-10-31T21:52:27Z jasom: s/IRC/IIRC 2017-10-31T21:53:25Z oleo: position-if 2017-10-31T21:55:42Z Bike: position-if can't do it. 2017-10-31T21:57:48Z sjl: iterate can do it -- whether it can do it "concisely" depends on your taste I guess 2017-10-31T21:57:50Z sjl: (iterate (for x :in '(3 0 9 2 3)) (for i :from 0) (finding i :maximizing x)) 2017-10-31T21:57:58Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-10-31T21:58:06Z _death: just write a function 2017-10-31T21:58:28Z jasom: If constant factors don't matter: (position (max list) list) 2017-10-31T21:59:49Z sjl: unfortunately alexandria:extremum can't give you the position, just the element itself 2017-10-31T22:03:11Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T22:03:12Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-31T22:03:31Z caseyowo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:04:01Z jasom: (loop with best = (car list) with result = 0 for item in list for index from 0 when (> item best) do (setf best item result index) finally (return index)) 2017-10-31T22:04:47Z ym joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:06:25Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:09:35Z jasom: (values-list (reduce (let ((index 0)) (lambda (x y) (if (> (car x) y) x (list y (1- (incf index)))))) input :initial-value (list (car input) 0))) 2017-10-31T22:13:12Z miatomi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T22:13:38Z miatomi joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:18:09Z miatomi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T22:19:15Z Sigyn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-10-31T22:19:55Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:20:02Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:20:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-10-31T22:23:06Z oleo: (defun accumulate (op seq &optional (init 0)) (if (null seq) init (funcall op (car seq) (accumulate op (cdr seq) init))) 2017-10-31T22:23:27Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-10-31T22:23:36Z oleo: (accumulate #'max '(1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1)) -> 5 2017-10-31T22:24:50Z cozachk joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:25:27Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T22:26:38Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-10-31T22:27:01Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2017-10-31T22:27:27Z zachk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-10-31T22:28:47Z Guest77569 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I am goign to be simulation TCO becuase prolgo treats all prodicate calls like gotos 2017-10-31T23:30:45Z dmiles: simulate TCO because prolog treats all predicate calls (for deterministic predicates) as jmp/gotos 2017-10-31T23:31:16Z cozachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-31T23:31:48Z dmiles: so even though it will look like i am calling a predicate from a predicate from apredicate.. it may as will been a tagbody goto 2017-10-31T23:32:29Z dsevilla joined #lisp 2017-10-31T23:34:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-10-31T23:37:26Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-10-31T23:38:10Z adamvh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-10-31T23:38:47Z dmiles: oh i guess do leave a long trail of any local variables until exiting 2017-10-31T23:40:11Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-10-31T23:40:29Z pjb: dmiles: http://paste.lisp.org/display/359974 2017-10-31T23:40:50Z pjb: Not with TCO. 2017-10-31T23:41:58Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-10-31T23:42:31Z dmiles: pjb: thank you! 2017-10-31T23:42:53Z joast joined #lisp 2017-10-31T23:49:30Z dmiles: pjb: the leftoever go's are just dressing right? 2017-10-31T23:50:51Z dmiles: (they would be ignored) 2017-10-31T23:53:54Z pjb: dmiles: you could test if the last form is a non-local exit and avoid it. But it's needed when you fall thru. 2017-10-31T23:54:50Z pjb: eg. (tagbody (print 'begin) loop (print 'hi) (unless (zerop (decf foo)) (go loop))) 2017-10-31T23:54:54Z dmiles: oops yeah i see now 2017-10-31T23:57:11Z dtornabene_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-10-31T23:57:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-10-31T23:58:24Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)