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2017-09-01T02:07:34Z malice: How are these things called? #+sbcl #+nil etc.
2017-09-01T02:08:37Z PuercoPop: feature expressions
2017-09-01T02:11:34Z malice: Thanks!
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2017-09-01T03:09:58Z jasom: clhs #+
2017-09-01T03:09:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2017-09-01T03:10:06Z jasom: malice: see above ^^^
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2017-09-01T03:59:06Z whoman: ":allocation :class"! this is exactly what i was looking for the other day. i dont think i worded my question properly at the time
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2017-09-01T04:23:02Z vtomole: clhs macro-character
2017-09-01T04:23:02Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for macro-character.
2017-09-01T04:23:40Z vtomole: clhs read
2017-09-01T04:23:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
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2017-09-01T05:13:44Z JohnTalent: phoe: maybe I'm from an alternate timeline.
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2017-09-01T05:53:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-01T05:53:13Z shka_: beach: good morning!
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2017-09-01T06:08:47Z clintm: Good morning, beach!
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2017-09-01T06:46:05Z jasom: beacn saying "good morning" usually means I should be in bed
2017-09-01T06:47:14Z jackdaniel: heh
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2017-09-01T06:52:11Z beach: It is good that I serve some purpose.  I also serve the purpose of reminding loke to go to lunch when I say "Good morning everyone!"
2017-09-01T06:54:06Z Zhivago: A life well lived.
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2017-09-01T07:19:35Z shka: "what's my purpose? You tell people go to bed."
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2017-09-01T07:38:58Z beach: And to have lunch.
2017-09-01T07:39:24Z grublet: i think soneone must have told me to go to bed
2017-09-01T07:39:29Z grublet: cause i slept for a long time, which is unusual
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2017-09-01T12:17:18Z hjudt: anyone here who has experience with radiance and clip?
2017-09-01T12:17:37Z Shinmera: I might.
2017-09-01T12:18:24Z hjudt: i'd need help with a clip template. i want to print a table (from db query). i specify :headers and :rows. i can loop over headers, and the headers line is printed fine. but how can i loop over the columns in the rows?
2017-09-01T12:18:42Z hjudt: i have not found an example in the tutorial here: https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-tutorial/blob/master/Part%202.md
2017-09-01T12:18:47Z hjudt: nor on the clip manual page
2017-09-01T12:19:32Z Shinmera: How are you retrieving the data? Using the data-model, or?
2017-09-01T12:20:37Z hjudt: no, i have not managed to go so far: https://pastebin.com/DfRc1FvF
2017-09-01T12:21:19Z hjudt: data-model would be the next step then
2017-09-01T12:21:28Z Shinmera: What are "rows" and "cols"? Lists of strings?
2017-09-01T12:21:57Z hjudt: 1 sec...
2017-09-01T12:22:56Z hjudt: cols is a list of strings (cols is the headers), rows is data; each row is a list of values and the rows is a list of these lists.
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2017-09-01T12:24:07Z hjudt: e.g. eval of query-database is (("val1" "val2" "val3") ("val4" "val5" "val6")) ("header1" "header2" "header3")
2017-09-01T12:24:30Z Shinmera: Okey, so you just nest two iterate attributes. Like so: <ul iterate="rows"><li iterate="*"><span lquery="(text *)"/></li></ul>
2017-09-01T12:24:34Z hjudt: so i need to iterate over rows, but then over "val1" "val2" "val3"
2017-09-01T12:24:57Z hjudt: ok, thanks, i will try this...
2017-09-01T12:26:01Z Shinmera: Or, since you seem to want to output a table: <tbody iterate="rows"><tr iterate="*"><td lquery="(text *)"/></tr></tbody>
2017-09-01T12:26:30Z Shinmera: And a <thead> for the header line, of course.
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2017-09-01T12:27:56Z hjudt: thanks, using iterate="*" makes this work now. i guess i need some more practice getting acquainted to that clipboard reference * stuff.
2017-09-01T12:28:10Z Shinmera: * just means "the current clipboard"
2017-09-01T12:28:25Z Shinmera: and iterate binds the current clipboard to the value it's currently iterating over in its body.
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2017-09-01T12:29:26Z hjudt: yes, thanks, i believe i finally understand that now. it feels a bit awkward using this at first.
2017-09-01T12:29:52Z Shinmera: Yeah. Clip has a few warts.
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2017-09-01T12:32:03Z Shinmera: It shouldn't be difficult to use other templating systems with Radiance if you end up not liking Clip.
2017-09-01T12:32:55Z dim: if using PostgreSQL, you can have HTML output from psql with \pset format html
2017-09-01T12:34:04Z hjudt: in fact, i like it a bit better than using a s-exp generator like cl-who or spinneret. it's not so much the ability to view the template directly in the browser, but having to recompile all the time is more tedious than simply saving the template and hitting reload in the browser.
2017-09-01T12:34:43Z Shinmera: I see.
2017-09-01T12:34:52Z hjudt: so as long as it does what i need it to i have no problems with it.
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2017-09-01T12:35:29Z Shinmera: Well, if you see ways to improve it, don't hesitate to file an issue.
2017-09-01T12:36:09Z hjudt: another question: if i would like to print the number of rows, would it be better to provide this value with clip:process or can it be done in the template?
2017-09-01T12:36:41Z Shinmera: You can do it in the template: <span lquery="(text (length rows))"/>
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2017-09-01T12:37:32Z hjudt: ok fine. i guess it is rather a design decision then where to put this?
2017-09-01T12:37:36Z Shinmera: The template vs. parameter thing is mostly a tradeoff in readability. If you do too much processing in the template, it quickly becomes hard to read.
2017-09-01T12:37:47Z hjudt: i see
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2017-09-01T12:57:11Z hjudt: another, none-web related issue: the db query returns 10157.0d0 as integer. how can i convert this into a nice-looking integer (10157)?
2017-09-01T12:57:31Z Shinmera: one of round, floor, ceiling, truncate
2017-09-01T12:59:28Z hjudt: ok, so i need to find out if it is a double float (type reported) and then if it is 0d0 transform it into integer to get rid of the .0d0?
2017-09-01T12:59:57Z hjudt: any easy way to achieve that?
2017-09-01T13:00:33Z hjudt: because double floats should stay double floats (or floats) if needed.
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2017-09-01T13:01:35Z hjudt: so need to check if round returns second return value not equal to 0
2017-09-01T13:02:06Z Bike: floats aren't always that nice
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2017-09-01T13:24:48Z hjudt: i came up with this https://pastebin.com/kPpL33CP, using it in the clip template
2017-09-01T13:25:39Z beach: EQUAL is not great.  Use = instead.
2017-09-01T13:26:13Z beach: hjudt: The rule is "use the most specific construct that will work".
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2017-09-01T13:27:04Z beach: hjudt: Also, there is no particular reason to have a NOT in the test in the IF.  You could reverse the THEN and the ELSE forms instead.
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2017-09-01T13:28:51Z beach: hjudt: What if the float is a short-float or a long-float?
2017-09-01T13:29:00Z hjudt: = does not work, equal does. i've simplified the rest: https://pastebin.com/FCcfdP5X
2017-09-01T13:29:11Z Bike: doesn't work on what?
2017-09-01T13:29:26Z beach: hjudt: Wouldn't it be better to say (typep number 'float)?
2017-09-01T13:30:29Z beach: hjudt: In fact, in this case, you should use ZEROP instead of comparing to 0
2017-09-01T13:30:34Z Bike: equal on numbers should do eql, and floats and integers are never eql, so it's pretty likely to never be true
2017-09-01T13:30:36Z beach: It is even more specific.
2017-09-01T13:31:37Z beach: Er, did you reverse the THEN and the ELSE?
2017-09-01T13:32:04Z beach: hjudt: I would have thought this: (if (zerop r) i number)
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2017-09-01T13:33:43Z Bike: i'm also not sure what is being done with the number that you want to have it be an integer but only somtimes
2017-09-01T13:33:54Z jdz: There's also TYPECASE.
2017-09-01T13:33:58Z Bike: for example, if you're just displaying it to the user, you can control digits getting printed and all
2017-09-01T13:34:12Z hjudt: now i have: https://pastebin.com/3SWQGVGg
2017-09-01T13:34:38Z beach: That's much better.
2017-09-01T13:35:23Z hjudt: yes. @Bike: it is only for display, but i need to handle cases when there are strings, and i don't know what type the values will be.
2017-09-01T13:36:00Z Bike: "when there are strings"
2017-09-01T13:36:01Z Bike: ?
2017-09-01T13:36:02Z hjudt: so the function does exactly what it needs to do now, but maybe the name doesn't tell the whole story.
2017-09-01T13:36:06Z Bike: like, if the "number" is actually a string?
2017-09-01T13:36:14Z beach: If the argument can be a string, you shouldn't call the parameter NUMBER.
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2017-09-01T13:38:35Z beach: Bike: For a reference to a special variable, we generate a symbol-value-ast inside which there is a load-time-value-ast.  To which should I assign the source location of the variable?  Both?
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2017-09-01T13:39:38Z jdz: hjudt: have you tried using TRUNCATE?
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2017-09-01T13:41:41Z Bike: beach: Both, I think
2017-09-01T13:41:51Z beach: Yeah, that's what I think.
2017-09-01T13:41:53Z beach: Thanks.
2017-09-01T13:42:06Z hjudt: jdz: what improvement would truncate yield?
2017-09-01T13:42:40Z jdz: hjudt: It does what your function does, only better.
2017-09-01T13:42:47Z hjudt: how?
2017-09-01T13:43:26Z jdz: Buy being implemented.
2017-09-01T13:43:29Z hjudt: it always truncates. i only want it to truncate .0d0 or .0 values.
2017-09-01T13:43:30Z beach: jdz: What makes you think TRUNCATE returns the original number if it is not an integer.
2017-09-01T13:44:08Z jdz: Oh, I misread the docstring :/
2017-09-01T13:44:29Z jdz: And also the implementation.
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2017-09-01T13:44:34Z hjudt: can anyone recommend a better name than simplify-number? i've change the parameter name "number" to item.
2017-09-01T13:44:38Z jdz: Should be a hint not to write any code today.
2017-09-01T13:45:39Z marvin2: can someone remind me when is 'fun different than #'fun (while passing both to higher order function)
2017-09-01T13:45:47Z hjudt: the most exact probably would be: possibly-simplify-float
2017-09-01T13:46:26Z jdz: hjudt: I still think TRUNCATE should be used instead of ROUND.
2017-09-01T13:46:38Z hjudt: reason?
2017-09-01T13:46:54Z jdz: You do not care which the nearest integer is.
2017-09-01T13:47:09Z Bike: marvin2: if you use 'fun it forces a runtime lookup of the global function, which means (a) it will be sensitive to redefinitions (b) it will not get any local function by that name
2017-09-01T13:49:01Z jdz: I imagine the implementation of ROUND is more complicated than that of TRUNCATE, but I might be completely wrong on this.
2017-09-01T13:49:15Z pjb: yes, it is. It needs tests…
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2017-09-01T13:49:51Z hjudt: jdz: ok. changed that. also renamed the function to "simplify-data".
2017-09-01T13:50:15Z hjudt: https://pastebin.com/KbDKqctQ
2017-09-01T13:51:16Z pjb: Why stop at integers? (if (= f (rationalize f)) (rationalize f) f)
2017-09-01T13:51:38Z pjb: So that (simplify-data 0.33333334) --> 1/3
2017-09-01T13:53:00Z pjb: Actually:  (defun simplify-data (f) (if (= f (float (rationalize f) f)) (rationalize f) f)) (simplify-data 0.33333333333) #| --> 1/3 |#
2017-09-01T13:53:21Z hjudt: pjb: because i do not have to deal with other data than floats
2017-09-01T13:53:39Z hjudt: and even floats is already overkill, the only data type i need to care about are double floats
2017-09-01T13:53:56Z pjb: think more.
2017-09-01T13:54:30Z hjudt: ?
2017-09-01T13:54:43Z pjb: I'm talking about output, not input.
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2017-09-01T13:56:15Z hjudt: no, output is fine now. it is mostly about data ids printed as e.g. 10.0d0 which should be 10. nothing more.
2017-09-01T13:56:33Z pjb: and why shouldn't 0.33333333333333333333d0 be printed as 1/3?
2017-09-01T13:57:14Z hjudt: because that is not part of my use case
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2017-09-01T13:57:35Z hjudt: any additional code for stuff which doesn't fix anything for my use case is unnecessary
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2017-09-01T14:02:21Z hjudt: pjb: but maybe in the future i will have to deal with more presentation issues, so i might come back to your idea...
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2017-09-01T14:06:47Z Zhivago: Perhaps an explicit epsilon would make it more robust?
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2017-09-01T14:12:07Z gendl: Hi, the :depends-on in a .asd file don't necessarily get compiled/loaded or monolithic-compile-bundled in deterministic sequential order, do they?
2017-09-01T14:12:43Z gendl: i.e. the latter ones can't depend on the former ones, right?
2017-09-01T14:13:00Z djh: Using format, I know if I want a number to have leading zeros, I can do it by padding  e.g. (format t "~5,'0d" 1) - but is there any way I can specify the padding as a parameter, rather than it being in the control string?
2017-09-01T14:14:01Z Bike: use v instead of a number
2017-09-01T14:14:22Z Bike: "In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used. In this case, format takes an argument from args as a parameter to the directive. The argument should be an integer or character."
2017-09-01T14:14:27Z djh: brilliant! Ty
2017-09-01T14:16:48Z beach: gendl: I think that's true.  But if you have that situation, normally one of the systems in the list should have an explicit dependency on the other.
2017-09-01T14:17:38Z beach: gendl: So if you have a system A that depends on C and D and you need for C to be compiled first, then I would think D would have a dependency on C as well, and your problem is solved.
2017-09-01T14:19:05Z pjb: Zhivago: not really. (rationalize 3.1415927 #|this pi in single-float|#) #| --> 93343/29712 |#  (rationalize 3.1415929) #| --> 355/113 |#  the question is rather the maximum size you want to accept for the denominator.  But you definitely want an exact float = there!
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2017-09-01T14:31:00Z loke: Good evening everybody!
2017-09-01T14:31:15Z gendl: beach: maybe i'm letting myself get confused, but I what I have is a low-level library which depends on cl+ssl and doesn't depend on anything I have control over, and what I need is for cffi:*foreign-library-directories* to get set to a certain value before cl+ssl itself actually gets loaded...
2017-09-01T14:31:17Z beach: Hello loke.
2017-09-01T14:32:40Z gendl: so i've made a system called :cffi-setup,  which :depends-on :cffi, then does this variable setting itself,
2017-09-01T14:32:48Z beach: I see.
2017-09-01T14:33:06Z gendl: so now i need to make something depend on :cffi-setup such that it gets compiled/loaded before the other low-level library which depends on :cl+ssl
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2017-09-01T14:33:40Z beach: I don't know of a solution for that.  That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course.  I am definitely not an ASDF expert.
2017-09-01T14:33:43Z gendl: adding :cffi-setup to the start of the :depends-on of the low-level library doesn't work reliably, because those :depends-on don't get loaded in deterministic order
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2017-09-01T14:33:57Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2017-09-01T14:34:38Z gendl: adding to :defsystem-depends-on does superficially appear to work, and indeed it does work for normal ql:quickload or asdf:load-system of the system,
2017-09-01T14:35:08Z gendl: but it falls apart when trying to load prebuilt monolithic-compile-bundles, since the :defsystem-depends-on stuff doesn't end up in the monolithic-compile-bundle fasl.
2017-09-01T14:35:16Z Shinmera: gendl: The gross hack solution is to explicitly load cffi in a toplevel form in you asd, then add the directory there as well.
2017-09-01T14:35:21Z Shinmera: *your
2017-09-01T14:35:58Z gendl: shinmera: will that solve the monolithic-compile-bundle problem?
2017-09-01T14:36:32Z Shinmera: I've never used it, so I have no idea.
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2017-09-01T14:40:38Z gendl: in theory, (asdf:operate 'asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle-op <system>) should spit out a fasl which, when loaded, gives the identical effect as (asdf:load-system <system>)  [but without asdf itself ending up in the image].
2017-09-01T14:41:08Z Shinmera: Ah. In that case, no.
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2017-09-01T14:41:45Z gendl: I think that's right - because the monolithic-compile-bundle operation isn't going to respect random side-effecting forms which have been placed in .asd files.
2017-09-01T14:41:58Z gendl: it only will look through the official dependency graph and build the fasl accordingly.
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2017-09-01T14:43:35Z Shinmera: You'd also have to hook into the m-c-b-op to inject the setup code into the resulting lisp/fasl file.
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2017-09-01T14:49:59Z Xach: those random side-effecting forms are bad and i do not like them
2017-09-01T14:50:41Z Shinmera: Well, I called them a "gross hack" for a reason
2017-09-01T14:51:22Z Xach: i would call them worse but this is a family channel
2017-09-01T14:51:29Z Shinmera: Heh!
2017-09-01T14:52:34Z Shinmera is reminded of https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs/blob/master/qt-libs.asd#L20 and fears Xach's wrath
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2017-09-01T14:55:54Z Xach: i think readtables are a bit in the same boat
2017-09-01T14:56:19Z Xach: 98% of the time you can ignore them, but sometimes you are stuck with the fact that any old code can be read as a result of any old character
2017-09-01T14:56:54Z Xach: that's with respect to analyzing code as text somehow
2017-09-01T14:57:02Z gendl: Xach: this has to do with zacl -- trying to get the build to work on Windows, where the ssl DLLs have to be put in a known location and specified somehow with cffi:*foreign-library-directories*. I'm starting to think i'll just have to hack the generate.lisp to load the cffi setup explicitly before loading the main monofasl.
2017-09-01T14:57:31Z Xach: gendl: do you need ssl support? there are ways to avoid loading the ssl libraries, i think.
2017-09-01T14:57:45Z Shinmera fears Xach's wrath once again https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/dynamic.lisp
2017-09-01T14:58:45Z Xach: I think it may be a matter of hacking up the tools that process systems (and source forms) to emit enough info to get the kind of data you want on the other side. but it's sometimes annoying to have to do a thing to know what it takes to get it done.
2017-09-01T14:59:20Z Shinmera: gendl: If you deploy a binary instead you could just deploy the ssl libraries in the same folder as the binary.
2017-09-01T15:00:22Z gendl: shinmera: 1) I'm not confident that Windows will always automatically search the binary directory for DLLs (i've seen mixed results especially with Windows Server versions), and
2017-09-01T15:00:47Z gendl: 2) with CCL, the default deployment is to have 64-bit and 32-bit executables in the same directory, and each of these need different DLL versions.
2017-09-01T15:00:55Z Shinmera: I see.
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2017-09-01T15:02:06Z Shinmera: I think in this case doing something that emits additional code when ASDF writes out the monolithic source file for CL+SSL would be "ok".
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2017-09-01T15:03:08Z Shinmera: I forgot how that part of ASDF works though, so I can't give explicit examples on how to do it.
2017-09-01T15:05:10Z gendl: part of me is still thinking there should be a way to wrap with my own system such that the dependencies are set up using normal :depends-on, to ensure things happen in the right order. But maybe not, in which case I'll need to take the dive and understand more about monofasl mechanism.
2017-09-01T15:05:20Z gendl: Thanks for everyone's feedback, will think about this offline for a while and report back.
2017-09-01T15:06:56Z Shinmera: That the load order in depends-on is not ensure has bothered me a lot too.
2017-09-01T15:07:01Z Shinmera: *ensured
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2017-09-01T15:13:23Z slyrus: Shinmera: halftone looks very nice
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2017-09-01T15:15:11Z Shinmera: Glad you like it
2017-09-01T15:16:41Z slyrus: nice to see that qtools apps "just work" from quicklisp
2017-09-01T15:16:53Z Shinmera: Apparently not for entirely everyone :(
2017-09-01T15:17:23Z slyrus: gotta start somewhere...
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2017-09-01T15:31:22Z beach: Bike: I noticed that we store the INFO instance (created by querying the environment) in the FDEFINITION-AST.  That seems kind of strange to me.  I mean, I probably thought it was a good idea at the time, but I no longer do.
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2017-09-01T15:32:28Z Bike: doesn't it work the same way for lexical variables?
2017-09-01T15:32:42Z Bike: well, ther'es no instruction for it, but the INFO is used as an identity.
2017-09-01T15:32:54Z beach: I see.
2017-09-01T15:33:03Z beach: Let me dig deeper.
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2017-09-01T15:58:53Z beach: I see no call to cleavir-ast:info.
2017-09-01T15:59:10Z beach: Which leads me to think that it is not used.
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2017-09-01T16:00:37Z beach: Bike: Do you see any?
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2017-09-01T16:10:36Z Bike: don't think i see any.
2017-09-01T16:10:50Z Bike: also, apparently what i meant was that the identity of the info is used
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2017-09-01T16:12:00Z beach: Yes, I see.  But that can't be the case if the slot reader is never called, can it?
2017-09-01T16:12:45Z Bike: I mean, cleavir-env:identity is called in convert-form for lexical-variable-info
2017-09-01T16:14:36Z beach: Sure, I can see that.
2017-09-01T16:15:13Z Bike: I'm probably confused. I don't remember what the info slot of ASTs is even for.
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2017-09-01T16:15:57Z beach: It is only in one ast, the fdefinition-ast.
2017-09-01T16:16:08Z Bike: ....oooookay, yeah, i see.
2017-09-01T16:16:21Z beach: And I don't see it ever accessed, so it can't be used as far as I can tell.
2017-09-01T16:16:38Z Bike: yeah, ast-to-hir just uses the name-ast.
2017-09-01T16:16:51Z beach: I mean, we use explicit package prefixes and never slot-value, so if it is ever used, there must be cleavir-ast:info somewhere in the source.
2017-09-01T16:16:56Z beach: And I don't see an instance of that.
2017-09-01T16:17:26Z beach: ... or possibly an "(info" in the cleavir-ast files.
2017-09-01T16:17:33Z beach: But neither of those is present.
2017-09-01T16:17:52Z Bike: Yeah.
2017-09-01T16:18:19Z Bike: maybe slime-who-calls or slime-list-callers could be precise.
2017-09-01T16:18:39Z beach: Tell you what.  Since Clasp uses this stuff more than I do, could you try to remove the slot, and the parameter from make-fdefinition-ast and see whether things still work?
2017-09-01T16:19:15Z Bike: Sure.
2017-09-01T16:19:20Z beach: Thanks.
2017-09-01T16:19:49Z beach: I need to do some stuff away from the keyboard.
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2017-09-01T17:43:22Z Xach: Aha! A bug fix on one end results in a bug find on the other
2017-09-01T17:44:11Z phoe: 99 little bugs in the code~
2017-09-01T17:44:16Z Xach: one of clsql's system definitions seems to use "bad" asdf syntax, specifically: :depends-on (... (:feature sbcl sb-bsd-sockets))
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2017-09-01T17:45:01Z Xach: I suppose that would work if clsql-postgresql-socket-system::sbcl is in cl:*features* but I doubt that's the intent
2017-09-01T17:46:54Z Xach: ah yes, even alluded to in asdf::featurep
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2017-09-01T17:48:45Z dim: when something is too complex to be properly documented... anyway
2017-09-01T17:49:25Z dim: I guess I have quite some work to do on pgloader before allowing myself such comments ;-)
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2017-09-01T17:52:13Z rpg: Xach: do you refer to the docstring for FEATUREP?
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2017-09-01T17:55:03Z Xach: rpg: yes
2017-09-01T17:55:40Z rpg: As an aside, kind of want to change that to "ANSI spec" from "CLHS"....
2017-09-01T17:55:42Z Xach: rpg: I wrote my own featurep and signaled an error on non-keywords because of the grammar in the manual.
2017-09-01T17:55:53Z Xach: rpg: but asdf::featurep is more lenient
2017-09-01T17:56:11Z Xach: rpg: as a result mine caught clsql-postgresql-socket3's use of a bare "sbcl" feature expression.
2017-09-01T17:56:58Z rpg: I'll see about doing the same: seems reasonable.
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2017-09-01T17:58:04Z Xach: wellllll. people *do* use non-keywords in cl:*features*. or at least i think i've seen it a time or two.
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2017-09-01T17:59:03Z Xach: it's just that in this case, the combination of my misexpectations (due to manual) and the real behavior of asdf (due to code) clashed
2017-09-01T17:59:47Z Xach: oh also clsql-postgresql-socket3 has a bug
2017-09-01T17:59:50Z Xach: the definition, anyway
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2017-09-01T18:01:46Z dim: CL-USER> (every #'keywordp *features*) => NIL
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2017-09-01T18:02:17Z dim: (loop for f in *features* unless (keywordp f) collect f) => (CFFI-FEATURES:FLAT-NAMESPACE CFFI-FEATURES:X86-64 CFFI-FEATURES:UNIX CFFI-FEATURES:DARWIN CFFI-SYS::FLAT-NAMESPACE CHIPZ-SYSTEM:GRAY-STREAMS)
2017-09-01T18:02:33Z dim: I guess there's a better way write that loop, but it was so easy to type it in...
2017-09-01T18:03:04Z oleo: why can't classnames be keywords ?
2017-09-01T18:03:37Z oleo: (make-instance 'blah) does work but (make-instance :bla) does not
2017-09-01T18:05:07Z dim: make-instance must be given the symbol of the class, do you have a :bla class defined?
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2017-09-01T18:05:48Z Bicyclidine: i have no problem defining a :bla class on sbcl, and making an instance thereof
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2017-09-01T18:07:28Z oleo: aah
2017-09-01T18:07:36Z oleo: no the class is define only via bla
2017-09-01T18:07:42Z oleo: that's why
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2017-09-01T18:13:29Z Xach: dim: (remove-if 'keywordp *features*) springs to mind
2017-09-01T18:13:34Z rpg: Oh, yes, ok.
2017-09-01T18:14:38Z rpg: dim, Xach : Yes, Norvig defines FIND-ALL-IF as an alias for REMOVE-IF-NOT...
2017-09-01T18:14:54Z rpg: I mean REMOVE-IF, sorry
2017-09-01T18:15:44Z Bicyclidine: minion: memo for beach: removing the info slot has no apparent effect, i.e. clasp works the same.
2017-09-01T18:15:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-09-01T18:15:56Z rpg: BTW, anyone use org-babel with CL? I find that if I execute code snippets that contain IN-PACKAGE, they don't work properly. It looks like org may be squirting individual lines into SLIME?
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2017-09-01T18:16:06Z rpg: s/lines/s-xpressions/
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2017-09-01T18:16:43Z dim: remove-if-not. some day it'll stick to mind...
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2017-09-01T18:18:51Z phoe: remove-when, remove-unless, remove-whilst, remove-following, remove-notwithstanding
2017-09-01T18:19:49Z dim: well I like loop, so I'm not in a dire need to remember names of every Higher Order Function in the standard
2017-09-01T18:19:53Z dlowe: remove-unless-not
2017-09-01T18:20:18Z Xach: dont-remove-unless-aint
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2017-09-01T18:20:49Z dim: maybe-remove-unless-when
2017-09-01T18:23:28Z rpg: Do I need :var *package* (find-package 'my-package) ?
2017-09-01T18:24:07Z rpg: hm. Seems like the value assigned to package is interpreted in elisp!
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2017-09-01T18:28:01Z Bicyclidine: minion: memo for beach: sorry, i built it wrong and don't actually know yet, fixing
2017-09-01T18:28:02Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-09-01T19:53:09Z shrdlu68: New machine, would there be a clash if I installed distro-provided sbcl and then built sbcl from git mirror?
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2017-09-01T19:54:06Z whoman: nah, i did it for this setup
2017-09-01T19:54:26Z whoman: uninstall distro-sbcl before make install git-sbcl
2017-09-01T19:54:46Z whoman: not that it would clash. but just in case we dont run the wrong one afterward
2017-09-01T19:55:02Z shrdlu68: But then I won't have a lisp to buid with.
2017-09-01T19:55:08Z shrdlu68: Do you mean after?
2017-09-01T19:55:22Z jasom: shrdlu68: with gentoo there is a minor clash because it's install is stupid
2017-09-01T19:55:41Z whoman: 'make install' is one of the commands to install sbcl, which we do after compiling with distro-sbcl
2017-09-01T19:55:47Z shrdlu68: I've previously had a situation where the distro-provided version shipped with some outdated dependencies (I think it was asdf), and the files persisted even after uninstalling the distro version.
2017-09-01T19:55:51Z whoman: obv wtf.
2017-09-01T19:56:13Z jasom: shrdlu68: gentoo sets SBCL_HOME in /etc/profile rather than correctly configuring sbcl to find the image; major WTF
2017-09-01T19:56:16Z whoman: its what i did, just saying
2017-09-01T19:56:23Z shrdlu68: whoman: Oh, didn't think there.
2017-09-01T19:56:46Z whoman: also, you can rm -rf ~/{*sbcl*,*quicklisp*}
2017-09-01T19:57:18Z shrdlu68: ...which is why I'm hesistant to taint the system with the distro version.
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2017-09-01T20:22:36Z whoman: thats why i uninstalled it after
2017-09-01T20:22:47Z stylewarning: Hello lisp friends
2017-09-01T20:22:49Z whoman: now i am using git-sbcl for git-sbcl, and etc
2017-09-01T20:22:50Z whoman: hello
2017-09-01T20:23:31Z shrdlu68: whoman: Think I'll do the same.
2017-09-01T20:23:46Z whoman: (make-instance 'standard-method :function (lambda ()))
2017-09-01T20:23:50Z whoman: ok
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2017-09-01T20:24:51Z Th30n: What's the recommended way to get the directory of the lisp source code file?
2017-09-01T20:25:08Z Th30n: I currently have this: #.(uiop:pathname-directory-pathname (or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*))
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2017-09-01T20:26:12Z stylewarning: What are some cool Lisp snippets people have run across
2017-09-01T20:31:58Z Xach: Th30n: you don't need the uiop bit.
2017-09-01T20:32:12Z Xach: Th30n: oh, sorry. the directory. that's a fine way to do it.
2017-09-01T20:32:21Z whoman: shrdlu68, btw, i am just updating now from 1.3.20 -> 1.3.21
2017-09-01T20:33:04Z Bicyclidine: minion: memo for beach: got it right this time. removing the slot is indeed ineffective. it's possible i'm missing some obscure use but it doesn't seem likely.
2017-09-01T20:33:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-01T20:34:28Z Th30n: Xach: Ok, thanks for confirmation!
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2017-09-01T20:36:55Z whoman: Unexpected HTTP status for #<URL "http://bodge.borodust.org/dist/org.borodust.bodge.txt">: 404
2017-09-01T20:37:31Z Xach: nooooo
2017-09-01T20:38:17Z stylewarning: With a name like bodge.borodust what do you expect
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2017-09-01T20:39:15Z whoman: well, cl-bodge =)
2017-09-01T20:39:24Z whoman isnt british/english 
2017-09-01T20:39:31Z whoman: is it like 'pants' ?
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2017-09-02T03:08:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-02T03:08:21Z minion: beach, memo from Bicyclidine: removing the info slot has no apparent effect, i.e. clasp works the same.
2017-09-02T03:08:21Z minion: beach, memo from Bicyclidine: sorry, i built it wrong and don't actually know yet, fixing
2017-09-02T03:08:21Z minion: beach, memo from Bicyclidine: got it right this time. removing the slot is indeed ineffective. it's possible i'm missing some obscure use but it doesn't seem likely.
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2017-09-02T03:24:14Z beach: Bike: Thanks.  Can you push that change, please?
2017-09-02T03:24:45Z Bike: sure
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2017-09-02T06:15:40Z beach: I am getting more and more convinced that it is healthy to rewrite software from scratch from time to time.
2017-09-02T06:15:51Z beach: Unfortunately, it also takes a lot of time and effort.
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2017-09-02T06:25:57Z shka_: i don't think there is anything to add
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2017-09-02T06:39:52Z beach: Right.
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2017-09-02T07:27:00Z whoman: hmm
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2017-09-02T07:35:36Z beach: whoman: "hmm" what?
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2017-09-02T07:44:02Z whoman: i notice also that whole rewrites or throwaway / live code seems to be becoming a thing \
2017-09-02T07:46:17Z beach: I see.
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2017-09-02T08:02:17Z beach: Where did you notice it?
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2017-09-02T08:04:24Z beach: My observation was just based on my own experience.  In particular how the design is often substantially improved by a rewrite.
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2017-09-02T08:30:01Z whoman: i see that as well in my own rewrites, even with english =) well, there are a lot of 'livecoding' environments appearing, and lots more code generating; but i am mostly noticing the various levels of benefit to starting many things over , in living as well. each day new, each moment new, each session new
2017-09-02T08:34:42Z SaganMan: can you recommend me a good one for lisp and python?
2017-09-02T08:37:29Z Shinmera: tu
2017-09-02T08:37:37Z beach: SaganMan: What do you want a recommendation for?  A book?
2017-09-02T08:37:40Z Shinmera: Wrong window, nevermind
2017-09-02T08:38:09Z SaganMan: livecoding environment beach
2017-09-02T08:38:20Z beach: Ah, OK.  Sorry.
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2017-09-02T08:40:43Z beach: There was a YouTube video of a guy doing music in real time with Common Lisp.  I think he was just using SLIME, though.  Does anyone remember the video?
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2017-09-02T08:42:49Z shka_: beach: yes
2017-09-02T08:43:04Z beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI is one
2017-09-02T08:44:51Z shka_: beach: baggers has some live 3D code demos on youtube
2017-09-02T08:45:43Z shka_: like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82o5NeyZtvw
2017-09-02T08:46:08Z shka_: it is actually fairly impressive
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2017-09-02T08:52:11Z beach: Let's hope SaganMan gets some inspiration from those videos.
2017-09-02T08:53:47Z beach: SaganMan: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so for other languages, you probably need to ask elsewhere.
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2017-09-02T09:02:53Z shka_: SaganMan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82o5NeyZtvw
2017-09-02T09:02:58Z shka_: btw
2017-09-02T09:04:32Z Shinmera: I have some live coding stuff too: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9OdVIjVFdNZYCQ5OFTjYlAU https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9Poirb63aATXXWHCVCHwlQA https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9Mh3BWdBmt4JtIrwYgihTWp
2017-09-02T09:05:09Z SaganMan: that's awesome videos
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2017-09-02T10:07:01Z stylewarning: beach, around a year ago I did some stuff somewhat regularly
2017-09-02T10:09:10Z stylewarning: beach e.g., https://youtu.be/v6iOtLinE2c
2017-09-02T10:14:39Z stylewarning: Shoddy computer science computing numerical bounds on discrete-Fourier-like transform lengths https://youtu.be/idvZv4baCao
2017-09-02T10:15:00Z stylewarning: I suppose I should note all videos are done on-the-fly w/o editing or planning. Mostly weekend hacking.
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2017-09-02T10:47:50Z shrdlu68: Xach: Hi, I'm having trouble quickloading fast-io: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/137vGLrmMBtyE2DKUfqn/
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2017-09-02T10:53:00Z stylewarning: shrdlu68: try quickloading trivial-features
2017-09-02T10:53:13Z stylewarning: Then try fast-Io right after
2017-09-02T10:54:15Z shrdlu68: Already did, no luck. Let me paste the result after doing that.
2017-09-02T10:56:24Z shrdlu68: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/HezPqbYrRAcZSOJausE9/
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2017-09-02T11:00:38Z shrdlu68: glv2/ironclad is many commits (97) ahead of froydnj/ironclad
2017-09-02T11:01:11Z shrdlu68: Shouldn't we be using the former rather than the latter in quicklisp?
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2017-09-02T11:01:40Z phoe: shrdlu68: there's a lot of story behind this.
2017-09-02T11:01:49Z phoe: Xach: what is the current state of ironclad in Quicklisp?
2017-09-02T11:02:27Z shrdlu68: phoe: What's the story?
2017-09-02T11:03:06Z XachX: I need to switch over to sharplispers
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2017-09-02T11:06:12Z phoe: shrdlu68: in other words, https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad is the maintained version, as agreed with froydnj
2017-09-02T11:06:30Z phoe: and glv2 who is its current active maintainer AFAIK
2017-09-02T11:06:44Z shrdlu68: I see.
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2017-09-02T11:18:51Z mfiano: If you think that is bad, look at cl-png...it's 8 years ahead of quicklisp
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2017-09-02T11:37:39Z beach: stylewarning: I wasn't the one asking.  It was SaganMan.
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2017-09-02T11:39:25Z phoe: mfiano: wat
2017-09-02T11:39:26Z phoe: really?
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2017-09-02T11:39:50Z mfiano: Yes, it's pointing at a release rather than master.
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2017-09-02T11:43:48Z phoe: well someone needs to make a new release at github
2017-09-02T11:43:57Z phoe: Xach: ^ ?
2017-09-02T11:44:36Z mfiano: That system is pretty much garbage anyway.
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2017-09-02T11:45:53Z mfiano: It uses the antiquated libpng 1.2 which your distribution may not even carry anymore, and it writes to memory locations out of what is allocated etc
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2017-09-02T12:00:30Z phoe: ...ouch
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2017-09-02T13:06:01Z stylewarning: beach, you're a generic function which dispatches to other people ;D
2017-09-02T13:06:14Z beach: Heh, thanks (I guess).
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2017-09-02T13:07:17Z stylewarning: beach, there's been material on typed subsets of Common Lisp that allow full compile time type inference and checking. I think there was even material on doing parametric polymorphism.
2017-09-02T13:07:50Z stylewarning: Have you thought about this at all, either academically, or from a pragmatic setting of allowing some practical subset that could help programmers write better programs?
2017-09-02T13:08:03Z beach: Not really, no.
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2017-09-02T14:07:24Z solyd: stupid question, but I can't find anything on google - how can i get an outline of a lisp file?
2017-09-02T14:07:31Z solyd: to see functions/macros/class definitions
2017-09-02T14:07:39Z solyd: and easily navigate / search by name
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2017-09-02T14:08:39Z stylewarning: You usually can't of a lisp file
2017-09-02T14:08:54Z stylewarning: You can use APROPOS, a built in Lisp function
2017-09-02T14:11:23Z Bike: there is a system called manifest that gives an interactive map of packages in a web browser.
2017-09-02T14:12:07Z Shinmera: staple-server will do the same.
2017-09-02T14:12:18Z _death: hide-show works ok
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2017-09-02T14:31:44Z pjb: solyd: you can use emacs outline-mode.
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2017-09-02T14:32:19Z pjb: err, nope, doesn't seem to work.
2017-09-02T14:34:53Z pjb: Well, outline-minor-mode.  But you would have to work on the bindings, and to follow the conventions for outline mode…
2017-09-02T14:36:32Z pjb: solyd: otherwise you can write it yourself. That's the point of lisp being homoiconic: so you can easily write tools working on lisp sources: (with-open-file (in "source.lisp") (loop for sexp = (read in nil nil) while sexp when (string= "DEF" (and (listp sexp) (first sexp)) :end2 (max (length (string (first sexp)) 3))) do (print (second sexp))))
2017-09-02T14:36:34Z pjb: basically.
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2017-09-02T15:25:24Z whoman: solyd, speedbar, or projectile, or imenu
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2017-09-02T15:25:42Z whoman: lol
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2017-09-02T16:32:08Z oleo: oO
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2017-09-02T18:40:08Z kuwze: hey I am trying to use slime and I am getting this error:
2017-09-02T18:40:14Z kuwze: Versions differ: 2.20 (slime) vs 2.19 (swank). Continue? (y or n)
2017-09-02T18:40:22Z kuwze: also I am using SBCL 1.3.3.debian
2017-09-02T18:41:03Z kuwze: and I installed slime via quicklisp: <SYSTEM quicklisp-slime-helper / quicklisp-slime-helper-20150709-git / quicklisp 2017-07-25>
2017-09-02T18:41:05Z pjb: Yep. Did you use quicklisp to install slilme?
2017-09-02T18:41:09Z pjb: Oh, you did.
2017-09-02T18:41:22Z pjb: Perhaps emacs is finding a different slime?
2017-09-02T18:42:42Z kuwze: pjb: I have (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) in my init.el
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2017-09-02T18:43:21Z pjb: kuwze: you could search for all instances of slime.el and swank.lisp and remove the bad ones…
2017-09-02T18:43:37Z pjb: find / \( -name swank.lisp -o -name slime.el \) -print
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2017-09-02T18:56:06Z drmeister: How does one determine if something is a class?  I'm writing the CLOS::CLASSP predicate.
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2017-09-02T18:57:01Z pjb: (defun classp (x) (typep x 'class))
2017-09-02T18:57:02Z kuwze: pjb: thank you, it turns out that emacs somehow installed slime without me knowing... I guess that's because I was loading ac-slime and slime-company above (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))?
2017-09-02T18:57:12Z drmeister: I see ECL uses this:
2017-09-02T18:57:12Z drmeister: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/src/clos/kernel.lsp#L53
2017-09-02T18:57:17Z kuwze: I mean it installed slime via elpa
2017-09-02T18:58:47Z drmeister: pjb: Thank you
2017-09-02T18:59:17Z drmeister: I need a definition that avoids metacircularity issues.
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2017-09-02T18:59:46Z drmeister: I didn't mention that.
2017-09-02T19:00:10Z pjb: drmeister: the thing is that you can have implementation specific types of classes beyond standard-class and structure-class. (don't you have a c++-class type ?)
2017-09-02T19:00:33Z pjb: drmeister: so only the implementation can implement classp by expanding the class type:
2017-09-02T19:00:56Z pjb: (defun classp (x) (typep x '(or standard-class structure-class foo-class implementation-class whatever-class)))
2017-09-02T19:00:57Z drmeister: Right
2017-09-02T19:01:16Z pjb: or you can resolve the circularity with (deftype class () '(or standard-class structure-class foo-class implementation-class whatever-class))
2017-09-02T19:02:23Z pjb: Since you would need to have such a definition eventually anyways…
2017-09-02T19:03:10Z pjb: drmeister: notice that there are two parallel structures here: types and class hierarchy.
2017-09-02T19:03:24Z pjb: So you can define the class type before you define the class class and its subclasses.
2017-09-02T19:04:33Z Bike: instancep and subclassp seem like primitive enough operations... the latter just searches the CPL as by FIND
2017-09-02T19:08:30Z pjb: drmeister: so actually, classp could be different from typep.  It would depend on how you implement types or classes. Which one is lower level in your implementation?
2017-09-02T19:08:59Z drmeister: classes are lower than types
2017-09-02T19:09:28Z drmeister: If I understand what you are saying.
2017-09-02T19:13:58Z drmeister: Integrating what you said - I'm using this:
2017-09-02T19:13:59Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zSAUV9kt/
2017-09-02T19:14:21Z drmeister: The _lisp->_Roots._XXXX are classes defined at startup.
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2017-09-02T19:14:43Z Bike: would subclassp not catch those...?
2017-09-02T19:16:05Z drmeister: It would once the class-precedence-list is setup.
2017-09-02T19:16:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GY0xoAd3/
2017-09-02T19:17:25Z Bike: i see.
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2017-09-02T19:29:45Z shrdlu68: I've had this same problems quickloading fast-io in the past, could someone try to quickload it so I can know whether it's something unique to my set-up?
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2017-09-02T19:33:41Z whoman: loads successfully here
2017-09-02T19:34:26Z shrdlu68: whoman: Good. What lisp? What version?
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2017-09-02T19:35:22Z shrdlu68: This is a brand new set-up, so I'm really scratching my head trying to figure out what's up.
2017-09-02T19:36:53Z whoman: shrdlu68, sbcl 1.3.21
2017-09-02T19:37:29Z kuwze: what is the purpose of common-lisp-hyperspec-symbol-table?
2017-09-02T19:37:29Z shrdlu68: me too.
2017-09-02T19:37:54Z peterpp__ is now known as peterppp
2017-09-02T19:43:40Z kuwze: also, how do you remove a package from quicklisp to reinstall it again?
2017-09-02T19:44:00Z phoe: kuwze: reinstall it again? what do you mean?
2017-09-02T19:44:20Z phoe: if there is a new version, you can update-all-dists and it will update it
2017-09-02T19:44:32Z kuwze: I installed clhs and I followed the instructions, but I want to install it again to go through the instructions again
2017-09-02T19:44:53Z whoman: check ~/quicklisp/dist[s]/quicklisp/software/ ..
2017-09-02T19:44:57Z phoe: ^
2017-09-02T19:45:23Z kuwze: thank you!
2017-09-02T19:48:22Z kuwze: wait clhs installs the HyperSpec locally, but when I use hyperspec-lookup it points me to a website instead of the locally installed file
2017-09-02T19:59:51Z shrdlu68: I deleted ~/quicklisp and reinstalled quicklisp using ccl.
2017-09-02T20:00:06Z shrdlu68: quickloading fast-io worked after that.
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2017-09-02T20:00:36Z shrdlu68: I'd tried the same thing with sbcl and failed. But now that it's installed sbcl loads it just fine.
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2017-09-02T20:04:04Z phoe: kuwze: are you using hyperspec-lookup from inside CL or inside slime?
2017-09-02T20:04:52Z kuwze: phoe: inside slime
2017-09-02T20:05:12Z kuwze: I mean I am running hyperspec-lookup with M-x
2017-09-02T20:05:20Z kuwze: so not inside slime I guess
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2017-09-02T22:46:54Z slyrus: how can I allow for an :after method on initialize-instance to take kw args that don't have corresponding slots?
2017-09-02T22:47:27Z slyrus: e.g. (make-instance 'foo :awesomeness 5) where my i-i method will do something (awesome) with that value, even though there's not awesomeness slot in 'foo?
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2017-09-02T23:01:20Z phoe: slyrus: sounds like a case for &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS
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2017-09-02T23:39:09Z Bicyclidine: slyrus: if you just put the &key on the initialize-instance method that's enough.
2017-09-02T23:42:10Z Bicyclidine: that will make it a valid argument to make-instance and so on, and being a slot initarg is irrelevant.
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2017-09-03T00:23:55Z slyrus: Bicyclidine: that's what I thought, but I must have been doing something wrong...
2017-09-03T00:24:22Z Bicyclidine: how did it go?
2017-09-03T00:24:32Z slyrus: trying again now
2017-09-03T00:24:51Z slyrus: it's so hot here my computer overheated, had to reboot
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2017-09-03T00:29:11Z whoman: ah - print-unreadable-object cannot be read back - how to serialise CLOS instances properly ?
2017-09-03T00:30:28Z Bicyclidine: make up a format.
2017-09-03T00:30:33Z Bicyclidine: or just use #. if you're feeling lazy.
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2017-09-03T00:39:28Z slyrus: ah... the problem is mito's dao won't let me have initargs that don't correspond to slots
2017-09-03T00:41:22Z slyrus: never mind. operator error.
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2017-09-03T04:00:31Z JohnTalent: </quit
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2017-09-03T04:04:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-03T04:06:44Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
2017-09-03T04:10:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
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2017-09-03T04:35:55Z iqubic: What's the best way to learn the lisp progamming language?
2017-09-03T04:39:11Z beach: Read a book.
2017-09-03T04:39:20Z beach: minion: Please tell iqubic about PCL.
2017-09-03T04:39:20Z minion: iqubic: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-09-03T04:40:13Z iqubic: It seems that all the reputable irc channels have bots.
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2017-09-03T04:41:00Z beach: iqubic: Then, when you have questions, come here and ask.  You can also expose your code on paste.lisp.org and get remarks on it here.
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2017-09-03T04:41:22Z beach: minion: Are you a bot?
2017-09-03T04:41:23Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2017-09-03T04:42:15Z iqubic: beach: I'll do that.
2017-09-03T04:42:41Z iqubic: I take it this isn't the right channel to ask for help with emacs configuration issues?
2017-09-03T04:42:58Z iqubic: I should take that kind of stuff to #emacs.
2017-09-03T04:43:02Z beach: Correct.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-09-03T04:43:13Z beach: You can ask about SLIME here.
2017-09-03T04:43:46Z iqubic: beach: What's the name of the lisp compiler?
2017-09-03T04:44:17Z beach: We call them "Common Lisp implementations", and there are several.
2017-09-03T04:44:39Z beach: The most popular free ones are SBCL and CCL.
2017-09-03T04:44:45Z iqubic: I see.
2017-09-03T04:45:28Z iqubic: I usually just run my code in emacs' REPL, so I have no idea how to compile CL
2017-09-03T04:45:45Z iqubic: Do those CL compilers come with REPLs?
2017-09-03T04:45:53Z White_Flame: CL doesn't have the typical edit->compile executable-> invoke model of other languages
2017-09-03T04:46:12Z iqubic: White_Flame: Oh? What does CL have?
2017-09-03T04:46:25Z White_Flame: if you want a binary executable, you wrap up a current snapshot of the running Lisp image into an executable
2017-09-03T04:46:36Z iqubic: Huh?
2017-09-03T04:46:37Z White_Flame: but pretty much everything is done "live" in the system
2017-09-03T04:46:38Z beach: iqubic: Yes, they all have REPLs.  Most people interact with their favorite Common Lisp implementation using Emacs + SLIME
2017-09-03T04:47:08Z iqubic: beach: How does SLIME work?
2017-09-03T04:47:10Z White_Flame: iqubic: I haven't used emacs lisp much at all, but I suspect the idea behind how you run programs is similar, repl-driven
2017-09-03T04:47:20Z iqubic: White_Flame: it is.
2017-09-03T04:47:38Z beach: iqubic: Common Lisp is a "dynamic language" which means that there is no strict separation between compile time and run time.  The semantics of the language are defined in terms of a sequence of interactions.
2017-09-03T04:47:45Z White_Flame: a CL executable is a snapshot image of a running system, plus a declaration of which toplevel function to call as the "main()" equivalent when executed
2017-09-03T04:48:00Z iqubic: Emacs even let's you eval s-exps arbitrarily.
2017-09-03T04:48:12Z iqubic: s/let's/lets/
2017-09-03T04:48:31Z iqubic: So how does SLIME work?
2017-09-03T04:48:48Z White_Flame: yes, that's basically what slime allows you to do as well.  It connects via socket into a running Lisp, and runs the REPL commands through that socket
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2017-09-03T04:49:13Z iqubic: What do you mean by running lisp?
2017-09-03T04:49:29Z White_Flame: the SLIME client runs in emacs & runs the display and input, while the Swank server (part of the SLIME package) is a daemon in the Lisp which accepts those remote commands and runs themn
2017-09-03T04:49:40Z iqubic: It seems that lisp has a lot of terminology that I'm not used to.
2017-09-03T04:49:50Z White_Flame: which languages are you used to?
2017-09-03T04:50:13Z iqubic: Haskell, and Java are the only other languages I've studied in depth.
2017-09-03T04:50:35Z White_Flame: ok, so a "running Lisp" is sort of like a "running JVM"
2017-09-03T04:50:46Z iqubic: Oh, that makes sense.
2017-09-03T04:50:55Z White_Flame: it's the environment with the compiler, GC, etc, as an OS Process
2017-09-03T04:51:14Z iqubic: Alright, that makes perfect sense,
2017-09-03T04:51:49Z White_Flame: and that environment can run a repl, threading, listen to socket connections including for SLIME, etc
2017-09-03T04:52:22Z iqubic: I see. So what benifits does SLIME have?
2017-09-03T04:52:24Z White_Flame: and that entire environment can get snapshotted into an executable
2017-09-03T04:52:50Z iqubic: I see. But I take it Lisp executables are not that common.
2017-09-03T04:52:51Z White_Flame: SLIME is basically the IDE.  It lets you interactively evaluate stuff, [re]compile source code files into the running system, run the debugger, etc
2017-09-03T04:53:01Z iqubic: Ah, I see.
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2017-09-03T04:53:26Z beach: White_Flame: Impressive explanation!
2017-09-03T04:53:33Z White_Flame: you can just run sbcl from the commandline, and manually do (load "whatever.lisp") etc as a simple REPL, but SLIME is much richer.
2017-09-03T04:53:59Z iqubic: I think I want to use SLIME to automate the boring stuff.
2017-09-03T04:54:16Z beach: Most people use Common Lisp through SLIME.
2017-09-03T04:54:18Z White_Flame: SLIME is the expected development environment for common lisp
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2017-09-03T05:44:21Z beach: iqubic: Once you have a Common Lisp implementation installed, it is recommended that you use Quicklisp to install SLIME and other libraries you might need.
2017-09-03T05:45:18Z iqubic: what is QuickLisp?
2017-09-03T05:45:33Z iqubic: What CL implementation do you recommend beach?
2017-09-03T05:45:48Z iqubic: and how can I get QuickLisp to work?
2017-09-03T05:46:04Z beach: iqubic: Quicklisp is THE library manager for Common Lisp libraries.
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2017-09-03T05:46:26Z beach: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2017-09-03T05:46:54Z iqubic: Oh, so it's like Haskell's Cabal, just for Lisp.
2017-09-03T05:47:08Z beach: I use SBCL myself.  It all depends on the features you want.  The SBCL compiler generates very fast code, but CCL compiles faster.
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2017-09-03T05:52:29Z iqubic: I'm installing sbcl now.
2017-09-03T05:52:48Z iqubic: After that I'll need help installing SLIME.
2017-09-03T05:52:51Z JuanDaugherty: ql is like cabal install
2017-09-03T05:53:09Z iqubic: JuanDaugherty: I get that.
2017-09-03T05:53:21Z JuanDaugherty: not cabal
2017-09-03T05:54:04Z beach: iqubic: Read the Quicklisp page and follow the instructions.  Towards the end of that page, there are instructions to install SLIME.
2017-09-03T05:54:47Z iqubic: Can I do that in the morning?
2017-09-03T05:55:13Z beach: You can do it any time of day.  And in any time zone.
2017-09-03T05:55:14Z iqubic: It's just about 23:00 here.
2017-09-03T05:55:29Z beach: US west coast, I take it?
2017-09-03T05:55:33Z iqubic: Yes.
2017-09-03T05:56:16Z beach: There are almost always several people here in #lisp.  From all around the world.
2017-09-03T05:56:35Z iqubic: Cool. Thanks for all the help
2017-09-03T05:56:42Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-03T10:02:29Z kora9: I just figured out the best ever protection against attacks in applications. Don't allow the user to ever enter any input anywhere :P
2017-09-03T10:03:18Z phoe: kora9: it becomes even better
2017-09-03T10:03:18Z oleo: lol
2017-09-03T10:03:27Z phoe: the most secure code is the one that does not exist
2017-09-03T10:03:35Z kora9: phoe, That's true!
2017-09-03T10:03:49Z kora9: phoe, It's like how the best standards are the ones that are unspecified
2017-09-03T10:03:53Z phoe: can't attack what is already void of attack vector
2017-09-03T10:04:06Z phoe: kora9: ...actually, that's how Python came to be
2017-09-03T10:04:12Z kora9: phoe, hahaha
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2017-09-03T10:04:30Z kora9: phoe, Sometimes it's surprising what a lot of effort and no direction can produce in terms of result
2017-09-03T10:06:36Z phoe: kora9: isn't that how all cancers start?
2017-09-03T10:06:42Z phoe ducks
2017-09-03T10:07:00Z kora9: phoe, Cancer is very successful, it just doesn't share our goals
2017-09-03T10:07:06Z kora9 ducks and covers
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2017-09-03T11:38:53Z zaoqi created zKanren: cKanren without halting
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2017-09-03T12:02:42Z phoe: zaoqi: without halting problem?
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2017-09-03T12:11:04Z beach: phoe: I can't remember.  Did I ever ask you to read the Clordane specification? http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf
2017-09-03T12:11:40Z beach: phoe: If not, I would appreciate your remarks on it.  Not in detail, but the overall idea.
2017-09-03T12:11:41Z phoe: beach: not yet.
2017-09-03T12:11:49Z phoe: I will.
2017-09-03T12:12:15Z beach: Thanks.
2017-09-03T12:12:23Z beach: There are actually only a few pages of text.
2017-09-03T12:13:15Z beach: Around 9 in fact.
2017-09-03T12:15:22Z phoe: It's not much, yes.
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2017-09-03T12:15:32Z phoe: I will read it today, digest it and give you my feedback.
2017-09-03T12:15:39Z beach: No rush.
2017-09-03T12:15:55Z beach: As you can see, it has been lying around for a few years.
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2017-09-03T12:17:03Z phoe: Things in Lisp often tend to lie around for a few years.
2017-09-03T12:17:17Z beach: It is good that we don't have to rush.
2017-09-03T12:17:29Z phoe: T
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2017-09-03T12:37:35Z kuwze: I don't know if this is the right place to ask... but does anyone know how I could fix this bit of elisp/slime code? https://gist.github.com/kuwze/df06ddaea1e14568f4b2246843d3bcea
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2017-09-03T12:49:14Z phoe: perhaps #emacs might help better
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2017-09-03T12:53:31Z beach: kuwze: What is wrong with it?
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2017-09-03T13:09:36Z pjb: Yes, "What is wrong with it?" is the right answer.
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2017-09-03T13:47:21Z kuwze: er I figured it out... I was supposed to use slime-repl-mode-map instead of slime-mode-map
2017-09-03T13:47:48Z kuwze: thank you though... sorry about the confusion, I'll ask my emacs questions over in #emacs instead
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2017-09-03T13:52:39Z phoe: kuwze: actually, if they are slime-specific, #lisp might be better
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2017-09-03T14:03:44Z pjb: and if they are emacs lisp specific (and not specifically emacs specific) ##lisp might be better than #emacs.  Last time I was on #emacs, it was more like #lispcafe than ##lisp…
2017-09-03T14:04:00Z pjb: s/#emacs/#emacscafe/
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2017-09-03T16:55:26Z iqubic: How does one install quicklisp?
2017-09-03T16:56:16Z Shinmera: By following the instructions. https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2017-09-03T16:56:42Z iqubic: Shinmera: I'm new to lisp.
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2017-09-03T16:57:51Z Bike: the instructions give an explanation to the level of showing terminal input (for just sbcl though)
2017-09-03T16:57:51Z iqubic: Shinmera: I'm not sure I want to run this: 'curl -O https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp'
2017-09-03T16:58:03Z iqubic: Bike: I'm using sbcl
2017-09-03T16:58:05Z Bike: uh, why not
2017-09-03T16:58:33Z iqubic: Bike: Is that fine to run?
2017-09-03T16:58:40Z Bike: it just downloads the file
2017-09-03T16:58:45Z iqubic: AH, I see.
2017-09-03T16:58:56Z Bike: you don't need to use curl to do that if you're not comfortable with curl
2017-09-03T16:59:06Z iqubic: I am fine using curl
2017-09-03T16:59:17Z JuanDaugherty just installed it from ubuntu, first time not using the file
2017-09-03T16:59:39Z iqubic: should I verify the checksum?
2017-09-03T16:59:53Z iqubic: using gpg?
2017-09-03T17:00:08Z Bike: if you want
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2017-09-03T17:01:08Z iqubic: Apparently I don't have a public key, so gpg won't work for me.
2017-09-03T17:01:20Z iqubic: Should I trust quicklisp?
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2017-09-03T17:03:31Z Bike: don't have a public key...?
2017-09-03T17:03:35Z Bike: well, it's probably fine, though
2017-09-03T17:05:30Z iqubic: Why the heck does the quicklisp installer return nil when the installation is successful?
2017-09-03T17:05:42Z iqubic: That threw me for a loop
2017-09-03T17:06:29Z iqubic: Now, do I want to install vecto, like the quicklisp page tells me to?
2017-09-03T17:07:22Z Bike: that's just an example
2017-09-03T17:07:28Z Bike: you can install whatever you please
2017-09-03T17:07:45Z iqubic: What does vecto do?
2017-09-03T17:08:11Z Bike: dunno
2017-09-03T17:08:17Z Bike: https://www.xach.com/lisp/vecto/ this, apparently
2017-09-03T17:08:55Z iqubic: What I really want is SLIME.
2017-09-03T17:09:30Z Bike: install quicklisp-slime-helper, then
2017-09-03T17:09:33Z Bike: you'll need emacs of course
2017-09-03T17:09:38Z iqubic: I have emacs
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2017-09-03T17:10:00Z Bike: go for broke then
2017-09-03T17:10:03Z iqubic: SLIME is why I'm getting quicklisp set up.
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2017-09-03T17:10:21Z iqubic: What the heck is swank?
2017-09-03T17:11:47Z Bike: the lisp system that bridges the lisp implementation to SLIME
2017-09-03T17:12:07Z iqubic: So it's like a backend?
2017-09-03T17:12:24Z Bike: yeah
2017-09-03T17:12:57Z antoszka: iqubic: after you've installed the quicklisp-slime-helper from quicklisp, it will display code you need to manually insert into your emacs config. It's an important step, unless you're using a common-lisp-aware preconfigured distribution of emacs (like portacle or spacemacs).
2017-09-03T17:14:09Z antoszka: iqubic: it's a backend, and a protocol of the same name that's used for talking to a live Lisp image (think of the lisp image roughly of as an "interpreter" that you can send code into and see results of evaluation).
2017-09-03T17:14:49Z antoszka: Though the lisp will in most cases compile the code to native binaries for your platform.
2017-09-03T17:15:59Z iqubic: so a lisp image is a runnning repl?
2017-09-03T17:16:16Z phoe: iqubic: not really
2017-09-03T17:16:23Z phoe: a REPL is simply some code running in a Lisp image
2017-09-03T17:16:36Z phoe: it's more or less (loop (print (eval (read)))) plus some fancy features
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2017-09-03T17:19:17Z antoszka: iqubic: but, yeah, roughly speaking the lisp image is evaluating the code that you write in the REPL
2017-09-03T17:19:41Z antoszka: iqubic: more or less like the interactive python prompt, or irb from ruby, or tclsh in tcl.
2017-09-03T17:20:23Z antoszka: iqubic: including keeping some state around for whatever you happen to be fiddling around with.
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2017-09-03T17:21:50Z antoszka: iqubic: the repl can be either local (like when you start SBCL in the shell), or communicating via the swank protocol from a local or remote host.
2017-09-03T17:22:24Z antoszka: iqubic: you can start a swank listener on a server and connect over TCP from a swank client (like Emacs with SLIME) on your local machine.
2017-09-03T17:22:53Z antoszka: Though the protocol is not protected in any way, so it's more secure to set up an SSH tunnel but that's not related to the idea.
2017-09-03T17:24:18Z antoszka: Just a security consideration.
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2017-09-03T17:45:00Z sindan: I don't see a slime channel, so maybe someone can help here? It's slightly annoying that the lines in the REPL buffer in slime get soft-wrapped. My buffer is maybe 180 chars long but lines get broken up at about 80 columns. Is there a quick setting to let lines extend to the right without being wrapped?
2017-09-03T17:46:28Z pjb: sindan: (setf *print-right-margin* nil)
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2017-09-03T17:46:42Z pjb: sindan: or (setf *print-right-margin* 180)
2017-09-03T17:48:34Z sindan: pjb: it was set to nil. Setting it to a number solved the problem.
2017-09-03T17:48:53Z sindan: thanks!
2017-09-03T17:50:59Z iqubic: Is lisp a functional pogramming language?
2017-09-03T17:51:25Z random-nick: well, lisp has functions
2017-09-03T17:51:46Z pjb: and it functions. So it's functional.
2017-09-03T17:51:49Z iqubic: Yes, but is it functional like Haskell or Erlang?
2017-09-03T17:52:07Z pjb: It's more functional that Haskell: it functions more.  Haskell is lazy.
2017-09-03T17:52:08Z random-nick: no, you can do other paradigms in lisp
2017-09-03T17:52:20Z iqubic: random-nick: I see.
2017-09-03T17:52:27Z iqubic: Does Lisp support recursion?
2017-09-03T17:52:33Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-03T17:52:44Z pjb: But CL doesn't impose TCO.
2017-09-03T17:52:55Z pjb: So you will have to manage the depth of your recursions.
2017-09-03T17:53:53Z iqubic: (defun fact (n) (if (= 0 n) (1) (* n (fact (- n 1)))))
2017-09-03T17:54:03Z iqubic: Will that work correctly?
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2017-09-03T17:54:36Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-03T17:55:04Z iqubic: And does that properly compute the factorial of n?
2017-09-03T17:55:55Z kenanb: hi folks! hell, i miss this channel
2017-09-03T17:56:16Z pjb: iqubic: no, there's a bug in it.  But I'm not your implementation to signal you the bugs.
2017-09-03T17:56:27Z iqubic: pjb: What's the bug?
2017-09-03T17:56:51Z pjb: Use a CL implementation.
2017-09-03T17:57:09Z pjb: iqubic: cf. http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
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2017-09-03T17:58:09Z iqubic: I found the bug.
2017-09-03T17:58:20Z iqubic: remove the brackets from around the 1.
2017-09-03T17:58:28Z pjb: ok
2017-09-03T17:58:41Z pjb: "Call 1" is meaningless.
2017-09-03T17:58:49Z iqubic: because lisp was trying to call the function 1 with no args
2017-09-03T17:59:12Z kora9: Hey everyone =) I am mid-way through Land of Lisp now and I've gotten to the part where you make your own web server, I'm not getting any errors, but the web browser when trying to access the generated page gives ERR_INVALID_HTTP_RESPONSE and I can't figure out what the issue is. (This uses clisp sockets, by the way)
2017-09-03T17:59:18Z kora9: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355000
2017-09-03T18:00:38Z pjb: kora9: I can load this code without any error.
2017-09-03T18:00:58Z kora9: pjb, me too, but can you load the page after running (serve '#hello-request-handler) ?
2017-09-03T18:01:24Z pjb: #H is an invalid reader macro.
2017-09-03T18:01:52Z kora9: ohh
2017-09-03T18:01:58Z kora9: pjb, Maybe I wrote '# instead of #'!
2017-09-03T18:02:21Z pjb: Try: telnet localhost 8080 RET GET / RET RET
2017-09-03T18:03:03Z pjb: check your clisp window for errors.
2017-09-03T18:04:02Z pjb: While developping web applications or web servers, it's nice to catch all errors, and to send backtraces and error messages to the browser so you see it more conspicuously than in the REPL ;-)
2017-09-03T18:04:30Z kora9: pjb, hm. "READ-LINE: Invalid byte #xFF in CHARSET:UTF-8 conversion, not a Unicode-16"
2017-09-03T18:04:43Z pjb: Yes, you also have to manage encodings.
2017-09-03T18:04:57Z kora9: pjb, That's great advice. I would implement that if I knew how, but I'm still in the early stages of learning to code :-)
2017-09-03T18:05:15Z kora9: Hmm.
2017-09-03T18:05:17Z pjb: you can start with clisp -E utf-8, and later specifically set the encoding for the sockets.
2017-09-03T18:05:30Z pjb: But notice that 1- http is a binary protocol, so you should open a binary socket.
2017-09-03T18:05:46Z pjb: 2- the encoding can change depending on the parts of the HTTP messages.
2017-09-03T18:06:16Z pjb: so you could use babel to decode/encode each part using the right encoding (negociated between the client and the server).
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2017-09-03T18:08:05Z antoszka: iqubic: Some implementations do TCO behind the scenes, some don't, the standard does not mandate it (like it does for Scheme, which is only superficially similar).
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2017-09-03T18:10:44Z kora9: pjb, When doing GET /greeting HTTP/1.1 it works though
2017-09-03T18:11:10Z pjb: http 1.0 clients still exist.
2017-09-03T18:11:29Z kora9: I tried with lynx but it wouldn't load the page. Let me retry
2017-09-03T18:12:01Z TMA: pjb: that's HTTP 0.9 (without the version indicator)
2017-09-03T18:12:14Z pjb: kora9: furthermore you will have to test your server with a fuzzer: any random input should be handled gracefully (ie. it's a legal HTTP command, then it should be processed, or it's not and an error message should be issued). Crashes and hang-ups ar enot acceptable.
2017-09-03T18:12:28Z pjb: TMA: Right.
2017-09-03T18:14:34Z kora9: pjb, Yeah but this is just a webserver for learning purposes, it's not a hunchentoot competitor i'm making =)
2017-09-03T18:14:43Z kora9: pjb, It's from a book called Land of Lisp
2017-09-03T18:15:20Z pjb: kora9: this only means that you will issue error messages in more cases, but you should still reject any bug, ie. any crash or DOSing.
2017-09-03T18:16:44Z TMA: kora9: in a sense, handling exceptional situations is a thing you need to learn too
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2017-09-03T18:18:35Z TMA: kora9: I find that I spend more than a half of the time programming thinking about "how should I handle when this fails?"
2017-09-03T18:20:09Z edgar-rft: The art of getting paranoid by computer programming.
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2017-09-03T18:21:46Z kora9: pjb, TMA: Oh yes, definitely, but that comes later in the book. Implementing all this now is far above what my knowledge
2017-09-03T18:21:56Z kora9: is
2017-09-03T18:21:57Z iqubic: antoszka: does elisp have TCO?
2017-09-03T18:23:29Z kora9: pjb, Oh! It seems to be working in Firefox!
2017-09-03T18:23:42Z edgar-rft: iqubic, some implementation may have, but the CL standard doesn't enforce it
2017-09-03T18:25:30Z iqubic: edgar-rft: Aren't you also in #emacs?
2017-09-03T18:25:38Z edgar-rft: iqubic, sorry didn't read carefully enough, *elisp* doesn't
2017-09-03T18:25:48Z edgar-rft: yes, I'm everywhere
2017-09-03T18:26:12Z iqubic: I'm no longer in #emacs. Got banned.
2017-09-03T18:26:55Z edgar-rft: congrats, not many people managed to get banned on #emacs :-)
2017-09-03T18:27:04Z ainttimmy: xD
2017-09-03T18:29:31Z kora9: iqubic, What happened?
2017-09-03T18:30:17Z iqubic: I was banned for being a lying plagarist.
2017-09-03T18:30:34Z kora9: What did you lie and plagiarize? :P
2017-09-03T18:30:44Z iqubic: I found a elisp functon online and claimed that I wrote it.
2017-09-03T18:30:57Z kora9: Haha. Why?
2017-09-03T18:31:01Z iqubic: It was a thing for toggling comments.
2017-09-03T18:31:13Z iqubic: kora9: I wanted the people of #emacs t ike me more.
2017-09-03T18:31:26Z iqubic: I know that sounds petty.
2017-09-03T18:31:34Z kora9: Well, for being a liar and a plagiarizer, you're certainly very honest
2017-09-03T18:31:45Z iqubic: LOL
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2017-09-03T18:34:17Z Bike: don't do that, though. both those qualities are far more unlikeale than being able to write code is likeable
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2017-09-03T18:37:46Z JohnTalent: Any of you use Common Lisp with SDL2?
2017-09-03T18:38:58Z kora9: JohnTalent, I think one of the guys I talked to in #lispgames was writing a game engine using SDL, or had done so
2017-09-03T18:39:47Z JohnTalent: kora9: ah okay. great thank you!
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2017-09-03T18:50:33Z jsjolen: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/f_boundp.htm huh I think I just found a typo in the CLHS. Look at notes, it says "bound" instead of "boundp"
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2017-09-03T18:51:36Z Bike: already listed on the cliki page
2017-09-03T18:51:50Z jsjolen: Bike:There's an errata on cliki :)?
2017-09-03T18:52:27Z Bike: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications
2017-09-03T18:52:39Z jsjolen: Cool!
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2017-09-03T20:19:07Z shrdlu68: I want to use sharplispers/ironclad, at least before ironclad is updated in quicklisp. Will cloning it into ~/common-lisp give it precedence over the one in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ ?
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2017-09-03T20:22:35Z whoman: check ql:*local-project-directories*
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2017-09-03T20:32:03Z shrdlu68: Ah, found the answer in quicklisp faq.
2017-09-03T20:32:48Z iqubic: What's the difference between defvar and defparameter?
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2017-09-03T20:34:52Z Bike: defparameter sets the value every time, defvar only does if it hasn't been set already
2017-09-03T20:35:44Z iqubic: Can I use them in fucntions?
2017-09-03T20:37:42Z jfrancis: yes, but depending on what you're trying to do (create/set local vars vs. create/set global vars), you might be better off with let or let*.
2017-09-03T20:38:30Z iqubic: Yeah, I know.
2017-09-03T20:39:05Z Bike: in a function body they won't have their compile time side effect, so they're equivalent to nothing and setf respectively.
2017-09-03T20:39:21Z Bike: well usually nothing. a conditional nothing.
2017-09-03T20:40:50Z iqubic: What is a conditional nothing
2017-09-03T20:40:52Z iqubic: ??
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2017-09-03T20:42:20Z Bike: like i said, defvar only sets the value of its variable if it hasn't been set already
2017-09-03T20:42:29Z Bike: so most of the time, depending on whether it's been set, it does nothing
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2017-09-03T21:12:01Z iqubic:  How does setf differ from setq?
2017-09-03T21:12:21Z iqubic: And how are they different from defvar and defparameter.
2017-09-03T21:12:36Z iqubic: Why does lisp have a million ways to create variables?
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2017-09-03T21:13:42Z whoman: setq takes unquoted symbol , setf does some reverse lookup magic
2017-09-03T21:13:54Z whoman: lisp actually has no variables
2017-09-03T21:14:43Z whoman: (setq unknown-symbol 5) ;; warning if 'unknown-symbol is not already known.
2017-09-03T21:15:12Z iqubic: and how do those differ from defvar and defparameter?
2017-09-03T21:15:37Z _death: clhs defvar
2017-09-03T21:15:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2017-09-03T21:15:55Z _death: from this link you can get to the rest of the operators and see for yourself
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2017-09-03T21:16:35Z whoman: defvar doesnt set value again if symbol already has associated value
2017-09-03T21:16:38Z Bike: setf and setq do not "create" variables
2017-09-03T21:16:45Z Bike: and you can ignore setq
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2017-09-03T21:17:03Z iqubic: Ah. I see. They only reassign the variables.
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2017-09-03T21:17:24Z iqubic: (1+ x) only works if x exists and has a value.
2017-09-03T21:17:43Z Bike: usually you'd say "if x is bound", but yes
2017-09-03T21:17:45Z iqubic: the 1+ macro uses setf under the hood.
2017-09-03T21:17:53Z Bike: 1+ isn't a macro
2017-09-03T21:17:59Z Bike: are you thinking of incf?
2017-09-03T21:18:18Z iqubic: Yes.
2017-09-03T21:18:26Z iqubic: I'm new to lisp. Forgive me.
2017-09-03T21:19:38Z whoman: reassign the *symbols*
2017-09-03T21:19:41Z _death: it uses the setf machinery, but not the setf operator
2017-09-03T21:19:42Z Bike: lucky for you i don't judge people by knowledge of programming languages
2017-09-03T21:20:43Z _death: whoman: lisp does have variables, and setf assigns to places.. variables are places
2017-09-03T21:21:38Z whoman: _death, sure, i try to just call them symbols though. names, difficult to associate with places. C has memory addresses but 'place' in lisp seems arbitrary or vaguely virtual
2017-09-03T21:22:15Z Bike: they're not symbols. if you do a lexical variable binding, and compile it, if the symbol is around there at runtime it's only for debugging.
2017-09-03T21:22:17Z whoman: in C i can visualize easily the memory/location/geometry of my code. in lisp, i dont know yet because i am still new.
2017-09-03T21:23:17Z Bike: in lisp it's not specified. it's also often not specified in C, for that matter
2017-09-03T21:23:18Z whoman: Bike, oh that is true.. i think i cant see that deeply into code quite yet.
2017-09-03T21:25:40Z _death: (defun black-hole (&rest whatever) (declare (ignore whatever))) (defun (setf black-hole) (new-thing &rest whatever) (declare (ignore whatever)) new-thing) (define-symbol-macro black-hole (black-hole))
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2017-09-03T21:27:05Z jmercouris: hello everyone, i'm trying to use uiop:delete-directory-tree and it is telling me that my directory is a wildcard path, but the output shows it is not
2017-09-03T21:27:13Z jmercouris: here's my code/response: https://pastebin.com/QXV7FXx8
2017-09-03T21:28:22Z _death: it's not telling you tht it's "a wildcard path"
2017-09-03T21:28:53Z jmercouris: what does it mean then? what is a physical dir?
2017-09-03T21:28:54Z _death: it's not not telling you that it's not not not a physical non-wildcard directory pathname
2017-09-03T21:29:03Z jmercouris: wait, i'm not understanding you now
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2017-09-03T21:29:26Z whoman: _death, ehe... didnt know (defun (setf ..) ..)
2017-09-03T21:29:30Z _death: it wants a directory pathname, so I guess you'll want to add a slash to your string
2017-09-03T21:29:43Z jmercouris: you mean at the end?
2017-09-03T21:29:49Z _death: yes
2017-09-03T21:29:55Z jmercouris: that's very strange, because it's definitely pointing to the inode...
2017-09-03T21:30:03Z jmercouris: or whatever the dir files are called
2017-09-03T21:30:39Z jmercouris: i'm afraid that did not fix it
2017-09-03T21:30:44Z jmercouris: same exact complaint
2017-09-03T21:31:21Z jmercouris: it's a real dir too: "pwd" >> /Users/jmercouris/Projects/Next/next/tmp
2017-09-03T21:33:07Z _death: the docstring also says "not namestring", so I'm guessing you'll want to turn it into a pathname.. better yet, you may want to not deal with strings at all.. (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "tmp")) (asdf:system-source-directory :next))
2017-09-03T21:33:32Z jmercouris: what is a pathname? a type of object?
2017-09-03T21:33:35Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-09-03T21:33:50Z jmercouris: i mean in this context of course, not in general
2017-09-03T21:33:56Z _death: clhs pathname
2017-09-03T21:33:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pn.htm
2017-09-03T21:34:39Z _death: maybe a better introduction is in Practical Common Lisp
2017-09-03T21:34:59Z _death: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-portable-pathname-library.html
2017-09-03T21:35:20Z jmercouris: ok thanks, i'll give it a read
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2017-09-03T22:20:56Z whoman: https://github.com/hcs64/tiramisu
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2017-09-03T23:07:04Z trocado: hi! is there any kind of map function that operates on sublists? like (map* #'round '((2.5 0.1) (0.9 1.1))) -> ((3 0) (1 1))
2017-09-03T23:07:29Z trocado: or do I go and make my own?
2017-09-03T23:08:56Z JohnTalent: trocado: flatten them first?
2017-09-03T23:09:25Z trocado: but then I get (3 0 1 1)...
2017-09-03T23:11:30Z JohnTalent: trocado: what is it you want?
2017-09-03T23:12:33Z whoman: zip?
2017-09-03T23:12:41Z trocado: JohnTalent: I want to preserve the list structure: ((3 0) (1 1))
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2017-09-03T23:13:49Z JohnTalent: trocado: build it up again then.
2017-09-03T23:14:15Z JohnTalent: of perhaps just use setf on each evaluation.
2017-09-03T23:16:36Z JohnTalent: trocado: how about: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36927219/reversing-list-with-sublists-and-atoms-in-lisp
2017-09-03T23:16:50Z JohnTalent: So instead of reverse you use #'round.
2017-09-03T23:18:34Z JohnTalent: and if you need to have sub sub lists, you just recurse into the utility function.
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2017-09-03T23:20:57Z trocado: JohnTalent: yes, I'll try that, thanks!
2017-09-03T23:21:09Z Bicyclidine: (defun mapcar* (function list-of-lists) (mapcar (lambda (list) (mapcar function list)) list-of-lists))?
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2017-09-03T23:22:54Z trocado: Bicyclidine: I was nesting mapcars, but was curious if there was a better way...
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2017-09-03T23:23:15Z whoman: there must be ..
2017-09-03T23:23:21Z whoman: recursion ?
2017-09-03T23:23:26Z Bicyclidine: well that's what any definition would do
2017-09-03T23:23:47Z Bicyclidine: this goes over each element once, and doesn't do any extraneous consing
2017-09-03T23:23:50Z Bicyclidine: dunno what else you want.
2017-09-03T23:23:52Z JohnTalent: trocado: yw. :)
2017-09-03T23:24:13Z aeth: There is probably loop magic that's more efficient, but why? It won't be clearer.
2017-09-03T23:24:16Z whoman: (for-each-leaf ..)
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2017-09-03T23:24:49Z whoman: isnt there a helpful macro or pattern for the common use-case ?
2017-09-03T23:25:06Z _death: there, after you write it
2017-09-03T23:25:09Z _death: *there is
2017-09-03T23:25:15Z aeth: Something like this? http://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl
2017-09-03T23:25:23Z whoman: yeah yeah. i just figured it would be more common than that.
2017-09-03T23:26:18Z aeth: CL is a large language, but it's a large language that hasn't been added to in two decades.
2017-09-03T23:26:20Z whoman: aeth, excellent, that will probably do it
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2017-09-03T23:27:20Z whoman: what i will need soon as well
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2017-09-03T23:31:24Z pjb: aeth: what are you talking about? I added a new macro to it half an hour ago!
2017-09-03T23:31:46Z aeth: pjb: sorry, I haven't been following CL 18
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2017-09-03T23:32:07Z pjb: You've not been following CLaeth!
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2017-09-03T23:41:33Z shrdlu68: Expect some breakage with the new ironclad, once it's updated.
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2017-09-04T00:18:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu68: ironclad has a new maintainer?
2017-09-04T00:18:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: great
2017-09-04T00:20:42Z shrdlu68: Yep, https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad
2017-09-04T00:22:10Z drmeister: sbcl is 423'rd most installed package using Homebrew last year.
2017-09-04T00:22:53Z drmeister: https://brew.sh/analytics/install-on-request/
2017-09-04T00:23:11Z JuanDaugherty: do more people use that than macports or the tarball?
2017-09-04T00:24:08Z JuanDaugherty: drmeister, as an implementor, do you know of any gc that isn't stop the world?
2017-09-04T00:25:09Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: I have knowlege of only two GC's,  Boehm and the Memory Pool System.
2017-09-04T00:25:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.
2017-09-04T00:25:37Z JuanDaugherty: well cheney is the main alternative i think
2017-09-04T00:25:44Z drmeister: MPS can be set up to guarantee no more than certain length pauses.
2017-09-04T00:25:57Z drmeister: Cheney?
2017-09-04T00:26:37Z JohnTalent: What is the secret to getting slime to work in emacs? i get [no match]
2017-09-04T00:26:45Z JohnTalent: despite following the directions to a t.
2017-09-04T00:26:51Z JohnTalent: (not a NIL) :)
2017-09-04T00:26:56Z JuanDaugherty: yeah, I'm looking for something that is either continuous or only stops a subspace/thread
2017-09-04T00:27:46Z JuanDaugherty: i think best I would be able to do short term is force it on regular thread terminations
2017-09-04T00:28:00Z Bicyclidine: cheney is a type of gc. i think mps implements it.
2017-09-04T00:28:02Z drmeister: JohnTalent: I use the github version of slime and you have to set up the path to your lisp.
2017-09-04T00:28:15Z drmeister: Mileage may vary.
2017-09-04T00:28:23Z JuanDaugherty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheney%27s_algorithm
2017-09-04T00:28:25Z drmeister: Yes - I see
2017-09-04T00:28:35Z JuanDaugherty: sbcl has an implementation
2017-09-04T00:28:49Z JohnTalent: drmeister: yes. like: (setq inferior-lisp-program (executable-find "sbcl"))
2017-09-04T00:29:08Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: I don't know the answer to your question - sorry.
2017-09-04T00:29:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think ACL has a more modern GC, iirc
2017-09-04T00:29:27Z JuanDaugherty: np
2017-09-04T00:29:29Z Bicyclidine: the garbage collection handbook had tons of shit in it for this
2017-09-04T00:29:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does ABCL have its own GC or does it just use the JVM gc
2017-09-04T00:29:43Z Bicyclidine: i didn't get a ton out of it just because i wasn't working on that, but it's there
2017-09-04T00:30:20Z Bicyclidine: i think ABCL just uses the JVM's
2017-09-04T00:30:31Z JuanDaugherty: ty, didn't know of title
2017-09-04T00:31:08Z drmeister: I changed Clasp's pointer tagging scheme.   Now general pointers end in 0xf
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2017-09-04T00:31:36Z JuanDaugherty: too damn expensive though
2017-09-04T00:31:50Z Bicyclidine: welcome to academia!
2017-09-04T00:32:07Z drmeister buys used technical books
2017-09-04T00:32:18Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: woah, four bits now?
2017-09-04T00:32:47Z drmeister: No, I think I may have 16 byte alignment setup - or Boehm does that.
2017-09-04T00:34:11Z drmeister: Yeah - I don't recall telling Boehm what the alignment is - it may default to 16 bytes
2017-09-04T00:34:29Z drmeister: So - still 3 bits for tags
2017-09-04T00:38:05Z JuanDaugherty: well the TOC and bibliography are free, which makes it somewhat freely available
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2017-09-04T00:38:19Z JuanDaugherty: since it's just a survey
2017-09-04T00:38:51Z JuanDaugherty: rich in the thing i was interested in though parallel and partitioned gc
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2017-09-04T00:39:10Z JuanDaugherty: in last chapters
2017-09-04T00:40:55Z JohnTalent: I feel like I should be trolling slime.
2017-09-04T00:41:03Z JuanDaugherty: in another channel was pointed to free download for it
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2017-09-04T00:43:32Z JuanDaugherty was surprised to see the ubuntu install of slime actually worked when emacs was opened on a lisp file
2017-09-04T00:45:58Z JuanDaugherty: (a lil)
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2017-09-04T00:49:09Z JohnTalent: I am content to use vim. Keeps me on my toes.
2017-09-04T00:50:33Z pjb: Try ed, it'll keep you on your toe-nails!
2017-09-04T00:51:33Z JohnTalent: Overall I get the feeling that most errors are integration in lisp. The source code isn't the problem it's all the bits in between. A reason why many go back into the type-shelters native FFI of C/C++.
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2017-09-04T00:52:37Z JohnTalent: pjb: Would you believe 'echo "(exit)" > leave_slime.el'.
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2017-09-04T01:51:55Z JohnTalent: finally. my system only recognizes slime-lisp-implementations.
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2017-09-04T02:15:15Z shrdlu68: Xach: Hi, can I get your opinion and feedback on cl-tls, and whether it would be suitable, now or later, to be adopted in quicklisp?
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2017-09-04T03:06:10Z iqubic: Do you guys like the extended loop syntax?
2017-09-04T03:06:30Z Bike: qsure
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2017-09-04T03:07:47Z iqubic: (loop for i from 1 to 10 collecting i)
2017-09-04T03:07:54Z iqubic: I mean something like that.
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2017-09-04T03:09:03Z Bike: yep
2017-09-04T03:09:43Z iqubic: I have no idea what the above statement returns though.
2017-09-04T03:10:11Z iqubic: does it return the list (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)?
2017-09-04T03:11:14Z Bike: probably
2017-09-04T03:11:34Z Bike: yes
2017-09-04T03:14:22Z loke: LOOP is one of the best parts of CL.
2017-09-04T03:14:55Z iqubic: loke: You're here and in #emacs?
2017-09-04T03:15:18Z loke: Of course.
2017-09-04T03:15:32Z iqubic: I hate being banned from #emacs.
2017-09-04T03:15:52Z loke: You probably did somethingt hat was not accepted there.
2017-09-04T03:16:39Z iqubic: I know exactly what I did.
2017-09-04T03:17:18Z iqubic: It's just that the rules on #emacs are so much stricter and so much more heavily enforced than any other channel I regularly visit.
2017-09-04T03:17:36Z loke: To be honest, the #emacs rules are very loose. Certainly looser than here.
2017-09-04T03:18:06Z CharlieBrown: What could have been violated in #emacs? Recommending proprietary software?
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2017-09-04T03:19:03Z iqubic: No, actually I was banned for being a "Lying plagrist"
2017-09-04T03:19:52Z iqubic: I found an elisp function online, and claimed that I wrote it.
2017-09-04T03:19:53Z loke: iqubic: Oh, relaly? That's,... interesting. I'd have expected it to be the endless barrage of questions that were being answered by teh first hit on google, combined with the expectation that other people do your work for you?
2017-09-04T03:20:27Z loke: I wasn't there, but I'm guessing it wasn't just that event.
2017-09-04T03:20:36Z iqubic: Well, that was also getting on their nerves.
2017-09-04T03:20:53Z loke: iqubic: Yeah... I can vouch for that :-)
2017-09-04T03:20:55Z iqubic: I'l be better when my ban is lifted in a few hours.
2017-09-04T03:21:06Z loke: iqubic: Try not to do the same here. :-)
2017-09-04T03:21:11Z iqubic: it was a 24 hour ban.
2017-09-04T03:21:19Z iqubic: loke: I won't
2017-09-04T03:21:21Z loke: That was remarkably nice of them.
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2017-09-04T03:21:32Z iqubic: loke: I suppose it was.
2017-09-04T03:22:16Z jmercouris: I didn't think it was even possible to get banned from #emacs :D
2017-09-04T03:22:29Z jmercouris: except for maybe xah
2017-09-04T03:22:32Z loke: jmercouris: Haha, yeah. I thought the same.
2017-09-04T03:22:38Z loke: At least he's taking it with good grace.
2017-09-04T03:22:45Z iqubic: why do you say that jmercouris?
2017-09-04T03:22:52Z loke: jmercouris: xah is really an exraordinary case.
2017-09-04T03:23:08Z iqubic: what's up with xah?
2017-09-04T03:23:10Z jmercouris: I've literally never heard of anybody getting banned from it, that's all, and I've seen some pretty "interesting" messages on there
2017-09-04T03:23:27Z jmercouris: iqubic: that's offtopic, don't want to derail this channel, just google him
2017-09-04T03:23:41Z iqubic: I will.
2017-09-04T03:23:48Z loke: I have installed the google result blocker for one reason only: to stop me from accidentally finding one of his pages when I do a searhc on emac.
2017-09-04T03:23:50Z loke: emacs
2017-09-04T03:24:22Z jmercouris: his tutorials are pretty good for beginners imo
2017-09-04T03:25:34Z loke: jmercouris: The problem with them is that even when they do contain useful information, it's interleaved with really terrible advice, and the beginner won't know what to filter out.
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2017-09-04T03:26:44Z jmercouris: yeah, that's always tough as a beginner though
2017-09-04T03:27:26Z loke: jmercouris: it's worse with a not-insignificant portion of the inromation is garbage. It's better to avoid his pages altogether.
2017-09-04T03:28:23Z iqubic: Alright, I see why xah got banned.
2017-09-04T03:28:39Z iqubic: I fear that I was banned because I was going down that same path.
2017-09-04T03:28:57Z loke: iqubic: Take solace in the fact that what you did was nowhere near as bad as him :-)
2017-09-04T03:29:11Z jmercouris: Self awareness is the first step towards improvement
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2017-09-04T03:33:27Z iqubic: loke: It still got me banned.
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2017-09-04T03:55:57Z defaultxr: anyone know why Sly's REPL becomes unresponsive after a condition occurs and/or the debugger pops up? using emacs -Q and latest sly in MELPA. run M-x sly, evaluate (/ 1 0) in the REPL, press q in the debugger window, and then try evaluating another form in the REPL. for me it just says "[sly] REPL is busy" and the REPL never returns.
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2017-09-04T04:19:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-04T04:20:21Z iqubic: Morning beach.
2017-09-04T04:20:59Z iqubic: It's 21:20 here. I should be asleep.
2017-09-04T04:21:31Z beach: iqubic: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2017-09-04T04:21:41Z iqubic: My school starts in three days, and I can't afford to keep staying up until 2 each night.
2017-09-04T04:22:24Z iqubic: Oh.
2017-09-04T04:22:33Z iqubic: Good morning beach.
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2017-09-04T05:24:23Z vtomole: clhs cons
2017-09-04T05:24:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm
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2017-09-04T07:57:15Z hajovonta: hello
2017-09-04T07:57:27Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2017-09-04T09:32:30Z mazoe: hello #lisp. Does anyone know of an input library that handles Mac multitouch trackpads nicely?
2017-09-04T09:33:21Z pjb: mazoe: none. But you could use Garnet and hook multitouch events to its gesture system.
2017-09-04T09:34:10Z pjb: On the other hand, you will probably don't want to.  Just write the code to handle your events yourself!
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2017-09-04T09:36:58Z mazoe: pjb: ok, yeah, thanks!
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2017-09-04T09:59:42Z brucem: pjb: do the APIs that Garnet uses still work?
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2017-09-04T10:11:20Z pjb: I don't know.  IIRC, it has multiple backends.
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2017-09-04T16:05:44Z vtomole: clhs macroexpand
2017-09-04T16:05:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
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2017-09-04T16:55:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: garnet does work on Linux still
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2017-09-04T18:19:38Z emaczen: How could I use hunchentoot to monitor traffic?
2017-09-04T18:23:05Z marvin3: ..
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2017-09-04T18:31:06Z vtomole: I use google analytics
2017-09-04T18:32:22Z emaczen: vtomole: I don't care too much about lots of details and would be happy just logging visits
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2017-09-04T18:35:27Z vtomole: You want to count how many requests are made to your server, or how many times different pages are accessed?
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2017-09-04T18:38:06Z emaczen: vtomole: I think the first step would be to track how many page visits I get, then I would like to get unique page visits
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2017-09-04T18:41:37Z shrdlu68: emaczen: I think you can specialize logging methods.
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2017-09-04T18:43:03Z shrdlu68: That way you get IPs, referrals, etc. with every hit.
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2017-09-04T18:43:47Z emaczen: shrdlu68: I think what I am going to do inside my handlers, is write the *request* object or pieces of it to a file
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2017-09-04T18:49:38Z Guest42768: hi there
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2017-09-04T20:04:35Z Ven``: Hi! I'd like to try a quickfix on some lib that's a dependency on another lib I'm using. Not sure what's the correct way to go. Using the package and redefining the symbol? Editing the source code quicklisp downloaded? Thanks
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2017-09-04T20:06:09Z jackdaniel: Ven``: clone the library to ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and modify sources there
2017-09-04T20:06:31Z jackdaniel: quicklisp will pick your version library first
2017-09-04T20:07:12Z jackdaniel: s/version/version of/
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2017-09-04T20:07:36Z Ven``: jackdaniel: nice, thanks! will try. Fukamachi has a lot of nice-looking CL libs, but sometimes the answers to issues&PRs take a long time
2017-09-04T20:08:19Z jackdaniel: it's hard to blame people for not giving top priority to strangers requests ;) I'm off to sleep, good luck :)
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2017-09-04T20:09:10Z Ven``: jackdaniel: Definitely not blaming anyone! That's why I was looking into someway to fix it myself locally :).
2017-09-04T20:10:53Z mfiano: Ven``: Where 'a long time' = never more than not.
2017-09-04T20:11:19Z Ven``: mfiano: sorry? :)
2017-09-04T20:11:37Z mfiano: I am waiting for answers from over a year....like multiple.
2017-09-04T20:11:41Z mfiano: I try to stay away from his race to emit shoddy libraries
2017-09-04T20:11:59Z iqubic: Who are we talking about?
2017-09-04T20:12:01Z Ven``: I don't have the tuits or the knowledge to write better libs, though.
2017-09-04T20:12:07Z mfiano: He is pretty much a lone wolf that doesn't care about community use I gathered
2017-09-04T20:12:09Z Ven``: iqubic: fukamachi
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2017-09-04T20:14:10Z Ven``: Is there a way to check that a special variable is bound? I know it's kinda a hack, but it's just to Make It Work™ on my local-projects fork
2017-09-04T20:14:51Z Shinmera: boundp
2017-09-04T20:15:59Z iqubic: Are there any good Lisp test frameworks?
2017-09-04T20:16:10Z Shinmera: There's at least three brazillion.
2017-09-04T20:16:35Z Shinmera: It is estimated that at least one test framework spontaneously springs into existence every hour.
2017-09-04T20:16:51Z Ven``: Shinmera: btw, thank you so much for all the work you do on CL libs and ecosystem! It's really great.
2017-09-04T20:17:06Z Shinmera: My own test framework would be this: https://shinmera.github.io/parachute/
2017-09-04T20:17:31Z Shinmera: Ven``: Thank you for the commendation.
2017-09-04T20:18:00Z iqubic: I might write my own test framework in lisp to get a feel for how how Lisp works.
2017-09-04T20:19:31Z whoman: fun and interest is good for learning =) what are ya testing ?
2017-09-04T20:19:48Z iqubic: Nothing at the moment
2017-09-04T20:19:53Z ralt: hello
2017-09-04T20:20:21Z iqubic: whoman: Why is it that many people in #emacs are also here in #lisp?
2017-09-04T20:20:38Z Shinmera: most use emacs to write lisp
2017-09-04T20:21:09Z iqubic: whoman: I hate being banned from #emacs.
2017-09-04T20:21:24Z iqubic: But I'll not complain about that here.
2017-09-04T20:21:32Z Shinmera: Already too late
2017-09-04T20:21:40Z ralt: I'm playing with logical pathnames right now, and I'm getting unexpected results. At least, not what I expected. I was expecting #P"/var/lib/foo/" back, not this. http://paste.lisp.org/display/355069
2017-09-04T20:21:50Z ralt: may anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong?
2017-09-04T20:22:01Z dim: iqubic: there are several good test frameworks already yes, http://www.cliki.net/test%20framework
2017-09-04T20:22:31Z ralt: I've seen some code able to do (translate-logical-pathname #P"FOO:") and get a folder back, and that'd be nice, but I don't understand the magic they've used to do it.
2017-09-04T20:22:31Z dim: iqubic: consider contributing to an existing piece of software / project in an area you like instead?
2017-09-04T20:22:53Z whoman: i can see too many answers for that. digital cloning, office water coolers, emacs is lisp, and shared interests
2017-09-04T20:23:00Z dim: iqubic: if you're into build tools, asdf and Quicklisp and buildapp and other projects certain would appreciate a nice Pull Request from you fixing their bugs...
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2017-09-04T20:23:46Z whoman: ralt, they might have to be set up (assigned?) elsewhere
2017-09-04T20:24:06Z ralt: whoman: see the paste, it sets up the translation, supposedly
2017-09-04T20:24:06Z iqubic: dim: I'm only just now learning lisp. I don't want to contribute to such a project yet.
2017-09-04T20:24:37Z iqubic: And I'm really new to lisp.
2017-09-04T20:24:48Z whoman: hmm
2017-09-04T20:25:04Z mfiano: Perhaps you should be reading instead of typing then
2017-09-04T20:25:38Z iqubic: mfiano: me, or someone else?
2017-09-04T20:25:53Z Ven``: uhm, (if (boundp '*x*) *x* 0) gives me a style warning :(
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2017-09-04T20:26:13Z ralt: iqubic: enjoy writing a test framework! I'm sure you'll grow to like Lisp with time :)
2017-09-04T20:26:46Z whoman: Ven``, doesnt here
2017-09-04T20:27:24Z iqubic: when backquoting something with ` like for writting a macro, what the difference between , and ,@   ?
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2017-09-04T20:27:28Z Ven``: (if (boundp '*b*) *b* 1) caught WARNING: Undefined variable: ;     *B*
2017-09-04T20:27:45Z mfiano: (defvar *x* 0) ;; now it's zero outside of your environment
2017-09-04T20:27:47Z Ven``: iqubic: ,@ splices a list
2017-09-04T20:27:56Z Ven``: mfiano: sorry?
2017-09-04T20:28:05Z iqubic: What does that mean Ven``?
2017-09-04T20:28:05Z ralt: iqubic: I suggest running `(,(list 1 2 3)) and `(,@(list 1 2 3)) in the REPL :)
2017-09-04T20:28:09Z mfiano: initialize it as zero.
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2017-09-04T20:28:31Z Ven``: mfiano: I don't want to, I want it to be runnable outside of this little hack snippet
2017-09-04T20:28:46Z whoman: how is it possible? ->  (length a) => 4,  (car a) => nil ??
2017-09-04T20:28:57Z mfiano: That will do that. Though you haven't shown us code either
2017-09-04T20:29:00Z Ven``: whoman: (cons nil nil)
2017-09-04T20:29:06Z iqubic: I'm not sure I see the difference ralt.
2017-09-04T20:29:11Z whoman: Ven``, aha, ty
2017-09-04T20:29:20Z iqubic: , gives me ((1 2 3))
2017-09-04T20:29:27Z iqubic: ,@ gives me (1 2 3)
2017-09-04T20:29:44Z ralt: iqubic: in the second case, the list has been "spliced"
2017-09-04T20:29:55Z Ven``: iqubic: check the depth difference
2017-09-04T20:30:04Z ralt: iqubic: as in, the list itself has been removed, and only the elements are left
2017-09-04T20:30:09Z ralt: (somehow)
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2017-09-04T20:30:32Z Ven``: mfiano: yeah sorry, I'm trying to hack a lib together that isn't passing a special variable to a thread when it should :\ but it's between 2 libs
2017-09-04T20:30:56Z |3b|: Ven``: if you want to check a special variable but don't want to globally define it as special, declare it special locally
2017-09-04T20:31:03Z mfiano: special variables lose their environment across threads
2017-09-04T20:31:03Z iqubic: ralt: Do you use list splicing in macros?
2017-09-04T20:31:23Z ralt: iqubic: in macros or in normal code too
2017-09-04T20:31:41Z |3b|: (locally (declare (special *b*)) (if (boundp '*b*) *b* 1))
2017-09-04T20:32:02Z Ven``: mfiano: how bad it is if they lose their env?
2017-09-04T20:32:43Z |3b|: implementations disagree on how non-global special variable bindings interact with thread creation
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2017-09-04T20:33:11Z |3b|: so if you want multiple threads to see same binding, you should probably use the global binding
2017-09-04T20:34:23Z Ven``: |3b|: the dynamic variable is created by cl-async ( https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async/blob/master/src/event-loop.lisp#L93-L96 ) but I want wesocket-driver to pass it to the thread it's creating, if it's defined ( https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver/blob/b9205073469faa2d2bf21aa05d033618deb79990/src/ws/client.lisp#L189 ), so that my new thread can use the event loop.
2017-09-04T20:34:26Z Ven``: I'm trying to do that here
2017-09-04T20:34:58Z Ven``: apparently I need to prefix it with the package though, whoops.
2017-09-04T20:35:16Z |3b|: yeah, using the right symbol helps too :)
2017-09-04T20:35:51Z ralt: why does emacs add a space after #P when I type a "?
2017-09-04T20:36:08Z mfiano: That is paredit
2017-09-04T20:36:14Z mfiano: Not emacs
2017-09-04T20:36:26Z mfiano: Use something else for paren handling, or patch it not to
2017-09-04T20:36:38Z ralt: is that a common convention?
2017-09-04T20:37:00Z mfiano: No
2017-09-04T20:37:00Z ralt: I don't really care, I just use whatever convention is defined, but that's weird, because most of the code I've read doesn't have this space afaik
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2017-09-04T20:37:19Z Ven``: Let's try with (*event-base* . ,cl-async-base:*event-base*) :-)
2017-09-04T20:37:28Z mfiano: Right, it's an issue with paredit that many people do not like, but paredit is not the most maintained of software
2017-09-04T20:37:39Z Shinmera: You can circumvent it like so: https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-lisp.el#L111
2017-09-04T20:37:41Z mfiano: Luckily there are multiple alternatives these days
2017-09-04T20:38:18Z ralt: Shinmera: thanks
2017-09-04T20:39:41Z ralt: mfiano: I'll look around. But change.. ugh :P
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2017-09-04T21:04:42Z Ven``: when I'm in a (break), am I supposed to be able to access any surrounding variables? maybe I should declare (debug 3) huh
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2017-09-04T21:07:10Z malice: Ven`` it depends on implementation, declaring higher debug levels helps
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2017-09-05T00:12:16Z nivpgir: hi, anyone here?
2017-09-05T00:13:31Z pillton: nivpgir: It is better to ask the question.
2017-09-05T00:15:06Z nivpgir: yeah, of course... I just didnt have much luck on other channel so I wanted to make sure
2017-09-05T00:15:12Z nivpgir: anyways...
2017-09-05T00:17:21Z nivpgir: im using ecl for a pretty simple script, but the ext:process-command-args doesnt seem to work. I cant even make it run the example they have on: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/rn01re61.html
2017-09-05T00:18:20Z nivpgir: its supposed to parse the args and run the appropriate forms, but it always jumps to the *default* rule...
2017-09-05T00:19:42Z pillton: I would use a portable argument parser.
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2017-09-05T00:21:44Z nivpgir: ok, I can of course try that, I just thought it would be easier to just use something thats standard to the compiler...
2017-09-05T00:21:48Z pillton: There is lisp-executable, command-line-arguments, CLON and a few others I think.
2017-09-05T00:22:40Z nivpgir: anyways, I mostly want to see if someone has some experience and knows what might be the problem before I file a bug
2017-09-05T00:23:33Z mfiano: I know uiop has at least some command line argument parsing, though may not be as exhaustive as the ones mentioned above. The benefit is it's included with asdf3
2017-09-05T00:24:00Z mfiano: I would definitely try to write portable code, too, though.
2017-09-05T00:26:24Z nivpgir: Its not for a project, its basically a small script to control the screen brightness for my personal use only, and so I can compile for wach system Im using (which is only 1 atm)
2017-09-05T00:27:11Z nivpgir: anyways I feel like Im wasting your time by now
2017-09-05T00:27:37Z mfiano: So why would you rewrite that script should ECL stop functioning/being maintained in the future?
2017-09-05T00:27:56Z mfiano: Portable code saves time
2017-09-05T00:30:37Z nivpgir: yes, well, I wasnt trying to say that its not really a good idea to write protable code, just that my considerations were writing this script faster, and more conveniently, and I thought that function would be easier to implement for my case, obviously I was wrong...
2017-09-05T00:31:12Z nivpgir: If no one on #ecl will answer me soon Ill just file a bug and use some other library
2017-09-05T00:31:16Z mfiano: Well, as long as you are sure that the ECL API you are using is frozen, like the ANSI standard, then the only argument I have is the above.
2017-09-05T00:31:34Z mfiano: The ECL maintainer went to bed not very long ago. You will have better luck tomorrow
2017-09-05T00:32:09Z nivpgir: wow, seriously? you guys know that? cool...
2017-09-05T00:32:17Z nivpgir: well, Ill go to bed too...
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2017-09-05T00:32:38Z nivpgir: Thanks anyway
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2017-09-05T00:36:42Z pillton: nivpgir: The args argument in ext:process-command-args defaults to (ext:command-args).
2017-09-05T00:37:21Z pillton: nivpgir: I don't know how you are invoking your script, but I would assume that the list returned by (ext:command-args) contains values you are not expecting.
2017-09-05T00:37:58Z nivpgir: im executing it with 'ecl --shell'
2017-09-05T00:38:15Z pillton: Insert (print (ext:command-args)) before the (setq ...) form and you will see what it contains.
2017-09-05T00:39:57Z pillton: So you need to use (ext:process-command-args :rules +ls-rules+ :args (subseq (ext:command-args) 3)).
2017-09-05T00:40:40Z pillton: Personally, I would recommend you stop using this API.
2017-09-05T00:41:03Z pillton: It relies on eval.
2017-09-05T00:42:15Z nivpgir: ive done that... this is what I get: "/usr/bin/ecl --shell ./cl-brightness-control.lisp"
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2017-09-05T00:44:29Z nivpgir: from my understanding it skips the first arg, and the "--shell" should just be skipped since its not matched
2017-09-05T00:44:50Z nivpgir: and maybe in the end cause default to run
2017-09-05T00:50:21Z pillton: My tests suggest it doesn't do any of that which is why I suggested you use subseq.
2017-09-05T00:51:04Z nivpgir: guess youre right, I just got the same
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2017-09-05T00:52:13Z nivpgir: well ill just go now and rewrite it to use something different for arg parsing
2017-09-05T00:52:17Z nivpgir: good night
2017-09-05T00:52:26Z pillton: Good night.
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2017-09-05T01:18:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyone here involved in the maintenance of parse-js?
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2017-09-05T01:52:40Z EvilAngel: is there any reason why common lisp cannot be used for the same things Python and Ruby are?
2017-09-05T01:54:46Z loke: EvilAngel: No.
2017-09-05T01:55:07Z EvilAngel: certainly is not just a robust regex engine or the fact that they are designed for sysadmin and hackers. all this time and I'm still wondering why common lisp didn't gain more traction
2017-09-05T01:55:34Z EvilAngel: the one thing common-lisp did for me was make me hate programming in other languages
2017-09-05T01:56:06Z loke: EvilAngel: Well, the reason is more because it's not the competent people who chooses a "winning" technology, but rather the "lazy masses"
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2017-09-05T01:56:22Z loke: That, and luck, I guess.
2017-09-05T01:56:30Z EvilAngel: ahh yes, so good marketing
2017-09-05T01:56:35Z EvilAngel: lol
2017-09-05T01:58:35Z loke: It's very rarely the best technology that "wins". Fortunately, it's also rarely the worst one. It's just that while better technology will still live on (like Lisp), truly worse technology is quickly forgotten (such as ST BASIC, do you remember that one? Didn't think so). Thus, you end up with a range where you have less-used great technology at the top, and the commonly used stuff at the bottom.
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2017-09-05T02:41:22Z vtomole: loke: Does that mean that C is pretty great since it hasn't died yet?
2017-09-05T02:42:37Z loke: vtomole: Well, C was muich better than the rest at the time it came out, for the purpose for which it was designed.
2017-09-05T02:43:12Z loke: Note, however, that one of those purposes was the ability to run on woefully underpowered hardware.
2017-09-05T02:43:39Z loke: Now, it's just intertia, which means that it occupies the other extreeme on the scape.
2017-09-05T02:43:45Z loke: scale
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2017-09-05T02:45:07Z vtomole: A gc-less lisp sounds ridculous, but it would be good for low-level programming I bet.
2017-09-05T02:47:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: vtomole: there are some gc-less lisps around
2017-09-05T02:48:16Z loke: vtomole: There were plenty of systems programming lagnauges around the time C came out. Mutlics were programmed in PLI for example.
2017-09-05T02:48:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Things like this: https://github.com/wolfgangj/bone-lisp
2017-09-05T02:50:44Z vtomole: People being afraid of parentheses is very unfortunate.
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2017-09-05T02:55:02Z fiddlerwoaroof every once in a while I try erc again and I always endup back in weechat
2017-09-05T02:55:06Z loke: vtomole: They sure don't seem to be scared of }
2017-09-05T02:55:17Z vtomole: My brother doesn't know how to program. So Lisp is the first language i'm teaching him. I wonder how he will feel towards other languages since he is very comfotable with s-expressions.
2017-09-05T02:55:47Z loke: Most C code I've seen has 10 lines of nothing but }. However, putting them each on their own line is apparently scarier than putting them all tat the end? )))))
2017-09-05T02:57:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess we could lure C programmers in with this: http://paste.lisp.org/+7K7C
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2017-09-05T02:59:04Z vtomole: fiddlerwoaroof: LMAO
2017-09-05T03:00:11Z vtomole: Write a lot of read macros so C programmers have no idea they are hacking on a Lisp.
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2017-09-05T03:02:08Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: OK, that was... weird :-)
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2017-09-05T03:20:24Z whoman: hmm so read macros are powerful stuff eh
2017-09-05T03:20:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, although you shouldn't usually use them
2017-09-05T03:20:43Z iqubic: all macrows are powerful
2017-09-05T03:21:01Z whoman: for DSLs mostly , or very specific patterns
2017-09-05T03:21:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: The main issue with read macros is that they confuse your tooling
2017-09-05T03:21:23Z iqubic: God, I really want to ask for help with emacs stuff, but I'm still banned from #emacs.
2017-09-05T03:21:46Z loke: read macros are incredibly powerful yes.
2017-09-05T03:21:51Z loke: But not all-powerful.
2017-09-05T03:21:56Z whoman: iqubic, whats up ?
2017-09-05T03:21:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if do too much in readmacros, all of a sudden your text editor's ability to help you is quite diminished
2017-09-05T03:22:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: iqubic: you might ask in #lispcafe
2017-09-05T03:22:10Z whoman: hm good point
2017-09-05T03:23:00Z whoman: some things help a little. say, math or prolog style stuff. and dsl or special stuff like json .
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2017-09-05T03:23:13Z whoman: json_macro
2017-09-05T03:23:39Z iqubic: whoman: I was banned from #emacs a few days ago, and the ban hasn't been lifted yet
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2017-09-05T03:29:36Z vtomole: iqubic: What did you do?
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2017-09-05T03:33:52Z edgar-rft: here's how a macrow looks like -> (defmacro crow () (list 'cra 'cra 'cra))
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2017-09-05T03:42:12Z pillton: What is the cra operator?
2017-09-05T03:43:09Z iqubic: pillton: It's actually a symbol
2017-09-05T03:43:41Z whoman: iqubic, i was more curious about the emacs questions
2017-09-05T03:44:16Z iqubic: vtomole: I found a lisp function online, and tried to pass it off as my own. On top of that I kept asking very simple questions that could be answered with a simple google search.
2017-09-05T03:45:02Z iqubic: whoman: All of my questions currently fall into the "simple and easily answered with google" catagory at the moment.
2017-09-05T03:45:19Z iqubic: I'll work on solving my issues on my own right now.
2017-09-05T03:45:41Z whoman: okay. looks like you were praying for asking about emacs help is all
2017-09-05T03:45:59Z iqubic: Er.. I was?
2017-09-05T03:46:38Z whoman: <iqubic> God, I really want to ask for help with emacs stuff, but I'm still banned from #emacs.   <--- no? i just like talking about emacs and lisp thats all.
2017-09-05T03:46:54Z iqubic: Oh, I see.
2017-09-05T03:47:10Z iqubic: I suppose you can read it as wanting help.
2017-09-05T03:47:19Z iqubic: But no, I don't need help right now.
2017-09-05T03:47:52Z whoman: i know. all i assumed is that you wanted to ask for help with emacs, nothign beyond that. let me know
2017-09-05T03:49:32Z iqubic: All I'm doing now is picking an emacs colorscheme. I don't really need help with that.
2017-09-05T03:49:54Z iqubic: I'm also setting up fonts and other such config stuff.
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2017-09-05T03:50:08Z iqubic: It's so simple I can just google it
2017-09-05T03:50:54Z whoman: yes. but awesome =) setting up things just right is very important, like an office or work space
2017-09-05T03:54:10Z iqubic: Yeah, I understand.
2017-09-05T03:54:38Z iqubic: I'm going to be using org-mode for all my note taking in school, so I need to get this looking good as soon as possible
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2017-09-05T04:31:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-05T04:32:14Z iqubic: Morning Beach
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2017-09-05T04:50:26Z BW^-: a bit OT but #algorithms is asleep:
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2017-09-05T04:50:41Z BW^-: for dynamic digraph reachabiity (single/few-source), what libraries/implementations  exist out there?
2017-09-05T04:51:48Z loke: BW^-: For Lisp? Are there any graph libraries?
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2017-09-05T04:55:35Z BW^-: loke: for any language indeed. lisp would be great of course.
2017-09-05T04:55:46Z BW^-: loke: i don't find any interesting dynamic digraph reachability impl in *any* language
2017-09-05T04:55:47Z BW^-: lol
2017-09-05T04:56:03Z BW^-: it's like the graph scientists are living on their own planet where there are no programming languages and no implementors haha
2017-09-05T04:56:43Z BW^-: http://code-o-matic.blogspot.hk/2010/07/graph-reachability-transitive-closures.html
2017-09-05T04:57:04Z vtomole: Do you ever feel like programming language design has been "solved"? What other new things are there to be discovered? It feels like everything has been done..
2017-09-05T04:58:04Z iqubic: Yes. Macros are the pinnical of language design.
2017-09-05T04:58:27Z vtomole: How so?
2017-09-05T04:58:59Z iqubic: Lisp Macros are the greatest thing ever. Full Stop.
2017-09-05T04:59:47Z beach: vtomole: It is hard to know what is left to be discovered before someone actually discovers it.
2017-09-05T05:01:15Z edgar-rft: Everything would be much easier if everyhing would be already discovered. Then we would know how much will still need to discover.
2017-09-05T05:04:19Z BW^-: loke: maaaybe this is something https://github.com/DimitrisAndreou/flexigraph/tree/master/src/gr/forth/ics/graph/algo/transitivity
2017-09-05T05:05:22Z vtomole: I don't know. It feels like all the "low-hanging" stuff has been done. Like Physics. Now there is a certain formula to language development.
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2017-09-05T05:07:20Z vtomole: Is there a pressing problem in PL theory right now?
2017-09-05T05:09:34Z loke: vtomole: For CS guys, there always is
2017-09-05T05:09:37Z loke: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5466
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2017-09-05T05:11:31Z loke: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5436
2017-09-05T05:11:40Z loke: “Program slicing provides explanations that illustrate how program outputs were produced from inputs. We build on an approach introduced in prior work by Perera et al., where dynamic slicing was defined for pure higher-order functional programs as a Galois connection between lattices of partial inputs and partial outputs. We extend this approach to imperative functional programs that combine higher-order programming with references and
2017-09-05T05:11:41Z loke: exceptions. We present proofs of correctness and optimality of our approach and a proof-of-concept implementation and experimental evaluation.”
2017-09-05T05:12:18Z vtomole: loke: Nice: http://graydon2.dreamwidth.org/253769.html
2017-09-05T05:12:34Z vtomole: That's what i needed, i was getting bummed out.
2017-09-05T05:12:59Z vtomole: Looks like the trend is towards more strict type systems though.
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2017-09-05T05:13:14Z vtomole: *static*
2017-09-05T05:13:46Z loke: vtomole: Of course. That's because you can wrote proofs for them, which means more papers and more funding.
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2017-09-05T05:15:00Z vtomole: I've heard of languages that are strictly proofs haha.
2017-09-05T05:15:09Z vtomole: Coq if i recall
2017-09-05T05:15:09Z beach: loke: Very good point.
2017-09-05T05:15:28Z iqubic: loke: How are things on #emacs?
2017-09-05T05:16:06Z vtomole: Proof of correctness. You mean implementations that have no undefined behaviours?
2017-09-05T05:16:09Z loke: Very quiet.
2017-09-05T05:16:36Z iqubic: loke: I wouldn't know. I'm still banned.
2017-09-05T05:18:49Z iqubic: Still Banned from #emacs that is.
2017-09-05T05:19:32Z loke: vtomole: You might be intersted in this then?
2017-09-05T05:19:32Z loke: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5276
2017-09-05T05:21:39Z vtomole: loke: Awesome! Seems like the cutting edge stuff comes out of the Haskell people cause they love abstract mathematics more than any other group of hackers I know.
2017-09-05T05:22:13Z vtomole: But their implementations won't be popular cause "math phobia"
2017-09-05T05:25:09Z vtomole: How do you prove a lisp implementation to be correct?
2017-09-05T05:25:40Z edgar-rft: we assume them to be all wrong
2017-09-05T05:26:47Z vtomole: Oh so it's not with proofs that I learn in my Comp sci classes ;)
2017-09-05T05:27:43Z edgar-rft: vtomole: there are some ansi-test suits somewhere...
2017-09-05T05:30:04Z jackdaniel: yeah, ansi-test is on gitlab.common-lisp.net
2017-09-05T05:30:33Z jackdaniel: it covers big parts of the spec, we are adding things from time to time
2017-09-05T05:30:49Z jackdaniel: when we find bug in implementation which isn't tested there
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2017-09-05T05:50:03Z iqubic: Night all.
2017-09-05T05:50:20Z iqubic: I need to sleep,
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2017-09-05T08:10:19Z hjudt: Shinmera: how can i concat string in clips lquery? ex: <span lquery="(attr :id id)">... and i need to use something like (attr :id (format nil "r-~a" id)) but that doesn't work in the template. i need to create ids that can be referenced by javascript code for performing ajax requests.
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2017-09-05T08:15:32Z Shinmera: hjudt: It does work if you either escape the " to be part of the attribute, or use ' to delimit the attribute string.
2017-09-05T08:15:54Z Shinmera: as in lquery='(attr :id (format nil "foo" ..))' or lquery="(attr :id (format nil \"foo\" ..))"
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2017-09-05T09:00:00Z hjudt: using single quotes this works, but double quotes cause string-input-strem end-of-file?
2017-09-05T09:01:53Z hjudt: i can live with using single quotes though, the html code looks fine
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2017-09-05T12:05:34Z Shinmera: Are you sure you properly escaped both?
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2017-09-05T12:19:51Z hjudt: <span class="test" lquery="(attr :id (format nil \"rc-~a\" (string-downcase *)))"
2017-09-05T12:20:14Z hjudt: i am quite sure
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2017-09-05T12:27:46Z Shinmera: hrm
2017-09-05T12:28:16Z Shinmera: I'll have a look later. Might be a bug in Plump.
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2017-09-05T13:48:46Z SaganMan: why is lisp called inefficient?
2017-09-05T13:51:14Z Xach: SaganMan: by whom?
2017-09-05T13:51:56Z White_Flame: it was inefficient in the 1960s I guess.  But because it let you do what other languages couldn't, that's a valid tradeoff
2017-09-05T13:52:13Z White_Flame: no need for that tradeoff today, though
2017-09-05T13:53:17Z shka: SaganMan: inefficient compared to what?
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2017-09-05T13:56:05Z SaganMan: I've read that in sicp book
2017-09-05T13:56:10Z varjag: things change… nowadays it's more efficient than majority of popular languages
2017-09-05T13:56:42Z SaganMan: I think I've read something like, even though it's inefficcient..
2017-09-05T13:56:51Z SaganMan: and I googled that
2017-09-05T13:57:00Z varjag: it's a 1980s book
2017-09-05T13:57:11Z SaganMan: and saw some people say lisp is slow? is that true?
2017-09-05T13:57:17Z lieven: besides, implementations can be inefficient. a Sufficiently Smart Compiler(TM) can do wonders.
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2017-09-05T13:57:30Z varjag: it's true that some people say that
2017-09-05T13:58:17Z varjag: it was apropriate to talk about lisp inefficiency in 1984 when you used assembly or c
2017-09-05T13:58:20Z SaganMan: and then it came to mind that emacs was written on lisp and how can it be slow..
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2017-09-05T13:58:38Z varjag: but from javascript or python user pov..
2017-09-05T13:58:50Z lieven: not that being written in C is a guarantee of efficiency
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2017-09-05T13:59:07Z varjag: lieven: assuming operator skill
2017-09-05T13:59:27Z varjag: SaganMan: emacs is written in c
2017-09-05T13:59:35Z lieven: some C programs sped up when linked with the Boehm conservative GC replacing native malloc/free :)
2017-09-05T13:59:42Z varjag: emacs is also pretty fast
2017-09-05T14:00:03Z dlowe: I've encountered a lot of people whose only contact with lisp is in a single college class where they learn about recursion. They are only allowed to use lists as data structures.
2017-09-05T14:00:26Z dlowe: I think a lot of erroneous preconceptions come from this experience.
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2017-09-05T14:03:16Z beach: SaganMan: Programming languages are neither fast nor slow.  It is a quality of the implementation.
2017-09-05T14:03:27Z SaganMan: well these days most people study software engineering, I wonder if they learn lisp or not
2017-09-05T14:03:41Z beach: They don't, unfortunately.
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2017-09-05T14:04:06Z beach: SaganMan: Emacs Lisp (which is an implementation and kind of a language) is not very efficient because it is implemented in the form of a bytecode interpreter.
2017-09-05T14:04:13Z marvin2: but how fast an implementations can optimize is constrained by language semantics
2017-09-05T14:04:25Z varjag: these days people learn to troll on irc
2017-09-05T14:04:39Z beach: SaganMan: SBCL, which is an implementation of the Common Lisp language, generates very fast code when the proper declarations are given.
2017-09-05T14:04:44Z dlowe: beach: some programming languages are defined by the implementation, so maybe sometimes it's appropriate
2017-09-05T14:04:56Z SaganMan: yeah, I've recently known that when someone in #emacs channel said it's bytecode not compiling
2017-09-05T14:05:23Z Xach: a language with "slow" semantics, but with billions of users, will see a lot of investment and innovation in making it run faster.
2017-09-05T14:05:24Z beach: SaganMan: It compiles to bytecodes, and the bytecodes are then interpreted by a C program.
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2017-09-05T14:05:44Z lieven: most of these classes also fail to teach people truly the new language because that's hard. It just encourages them to write fortran^java (these days) in a different syntax
2017-09-05T14:06:01Z beach: dlowe: I am inclined to avoid calling such a thing a "language".
2017-09-05T14:06:04Z lieven: truly learning how to write code in an idiomatic way in a new language takes time and effort
2017-09-05T14:06:59Z SaganMan: I think that sicp book is good in explaining what to look for in a new programming language
2017-09-05T14:07:18Z SaganMan: expressions >> blocks >> abstractions
2017-09-05T14:07:30Z SaganMan: as simple as that
2017-09-05T14:08:01Z beach: SaganMan: marvin2 is right, some languages are defined in such a way that it is very hard to create an implementation that generates fast code.  The creators of Common Lisp very carefully avoided constructs that would make it hard to create a good compiler for the resulting language.
2017-09-05T14:08:19Z SaganMan: I'm surprised it's not in our curriculum of our students
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2017-09-05T14:09:19Z SaganMan: beach: what about variants of lisp? scheme, clojure and any other?
2017-09-05T14:09:25Z beach: SaganMan: Here is a paper that you might be interested in: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01544135/document
2017-09-05T14:09:45Z shka: SaganMan: universities are gradual become less appealing to smart people
2017-09-05T14:09:51Z shka: *becoming
2017-09-05T14:10:02Z shka: *graudaly
2017-09-05T14:10:12Z shka: *for
2017-09-05T14:10:16Z shka: i hate english
2017-09-05T14:10:45Z copec: In my experience SBCL is among the fastest of dynamic language runtimes even without declarations
2017-09-05T14:10:48Z SaganMan: shka: don't hate english, hate your keyboard :p
2017-09-05T14:10:53Z beach: SaganMan: There is no agreed-upon definition of what a "variant of Lisp" might be.  I for one do not consider those languages to be "variants of Lisp".  But #lisp is dedicated to Common Lisp, which is very clearly defined.
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2017-09-05T14:11:27Z dlowe: Feel free to argue about it on ##lisp, though :)
2017-09-05T14:11:36Z SaganMan: I heard common lisp is oldest language next to fortran.
2017-09-05T14:12:00Z beach: That is false.
2017-09-05T14:12:09Z beach: Common Lisp dates from 1994.
2017-09-05T14:12:13Z SaganMan: beach: what's your defination of variant of lisp?
2017-09-05T14:12:27Z beach: SaganMan: I don't have one, and it is off topic.
2017-09-05T14:12:37Z varjag: 2nd version (and so far final) endition of common lisp anyway
2017-09-05T14:12:42Z SaganMan: ohh,ok beach
2017-09-05T14:12:57Z varjag: the original mccarthy lisp was 2nd to the original fortran
2017-09-05T14:13:04Z varjag: lisp changed since
2017-09-05T14:13:09Z wxie: beach：Then the Common Lisp spec is the most stable one.
2017-09-05T14:13:11Z varjag: so did fortran however
2017-09-05T14:13:12Z beach: SaganMan: Any attempt at such a definition would be disputed by most #lisp participants.
2017-09-05T14:13:42Z SaganMan: ah well, it's good people have their opinions (sarcasm)
2017-09-05T14:14:03Z lieven: varjag: that's of the languages surviving and still in somewhat regular use. there were a lot of earlier languages
2017-09-05T14:14:16Z varjag: fair enough
2017-09-05T14:14:23Z copec: CL is my favorite language, but Julia might interest you SaganMan
2017-09-05T14:14:27Z beach: SaganMan: Anyway, anyone who tries to convince you that "Lisp is inefficient" should be recommended the article in the link that I showed you.
2017-09-05T14:14:47Z SaganMan: but still, I don't know any other language which is as simple as lisp
2017-09-05T14:15:18Z SaganMan: simple not necessarily mean easy to master but the rules are easy, I think even a 10 year old can do lisp
2017-09-05T14:15:23Z Shinmera: I wouldn't call Lisp "simple"
2017-09-05T14:15:39Z Shinmera: Especially not after following implementation authors for years
2017-09-05T14:15:42Z beach: SaganMan: Common Lisp is definitely not a "simple" language.  Take it from someone who is working on an implementation of it.
2017-09-05T14:16:04Z SaganMan: I mean the rules beach
2017-09-05T14:16:14Z _death: it can be simple to use for simple things
2017-09-05T14:17:01Z Bike: the evaluation rules are not simple.
2017-09-05T14:17:40Z SaganMan: hmm
2017-09-05T14:18:07Z shka: SaganMan: you are refering to scheme?
2017-09-05T14:18:39Z SaganMan: sicp does talk about scheme but I've seen a bit of lisp too
2017-09-05T14:19:43Z shka: right
2017-09-05T14:20:02Z shka: anyway, i think that every statement should be put in some concept
2017-09-05T14:20:06Z shka: for instance
2017-09-05T14:20:21Z shka: if lisp is simple, is it simple compared to what?
2017-09-05T14:20:31Z _death: in many languages for example, getting the successor of an integer is quite complicated
2017-09-05T14:20:34Z shka: i don't think it is simple when put next to scheme
2017-09-05T14:20:48Z shka: or fortran
2017-09-05T14:20:56Z shka: or forth
2017-09-05T14:21:06Z shka: fortran is actually not that simple :P
2017-09-05T14:21:07Z Shinmera: depends on which fortran :)
2017-09-05T14:21:10Z Bike: scheme is pretty complicated too. maybe not as complicated, but there are continuations, and stuff like local (define ...) syntax.
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2017-09-05T14:21:37Z SaganMan: context, yeah
2017-09-05T14:21:44Z shka: but i think that at least for me, lisp is quite easy to use
2017-09-05T14:22:03Z SaganMan: I came from embedded C mainly
2017-09-05T14:22:05Z shka: hovewer, it is thanks to existing stuff built by community
2017-09-05T14:22:12Z SaganMan: at91SAM and atmega
2017-09-05T14:22:26Z lieven: scheme is so simple it took them decades to correctly define their most important feature, tail call optimization :)
2017-09-05T14:22:41Z copec: The syntax is simple, but there is a very sophisticated environment backing that up with decades of thought put into it
2017-09-05T14:22:52Z copec: For Common Lisp.
2017-09-05T14:23:41Z shka: yup
2017-09-05T14:23:49Z pjb: SaganMan: emacs WAS written in C in the 80s.  If it was written today, it could most certainly be written in lisp (probably in scheme).  cf. edwin in MIT scheme.
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2017-09-05T14:24:38Z shka: anyway, common lisp is mostly the right thing™ so i am using it if i can
2017-09-05T14:26:06Z SaganMan: hmm, I still have long way to go and so much time to kill.
2017-09-05T14:26:14Z SaganMan: I think I'll have fun
2017-09-05T14:26:39Z pjb: In the 80s there was no Lisp implementation running on all the systems targetted by emacs.  This is the reason why it was written in C.
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2017-09-05T14:27:17Z pjb: Today, thanks to the Internet and freedom software, most programming languages are available on most platforms (and there are a lot fewer platforms in use too).
2017-09-05T14:27:18Z SaganMan: ohh, is that so
2017-09-05T14:27:43Z shka: it is true
2017-09-05T14:27:48Z pjb: The first releases of GNU and emacs were done on 1/2" tapes!
2017-09-05T14:27:55Z SaganMan: lmao
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2017-09-05T14:44:09Z karstensrage: why is lisp so freaking fast wrt to things like recursive factorial functions in tutorials?
2017-09-05T14:44:42Z jackdaniel: because we specially tweak compilers to win in factorial benchmarks, that's the sole reasonn ;)
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2017-09-05T14:45:17Z Bike: factorials are really easy. if you're just doing (factorial 7) or something obviously it's going to be quick. you can do that on paper.
2017-09-05T14:45:18Z jackdaniel: I'm joking of course. There are some very good CL compilers
2017-09-05T14:45:32Z jackdaniel: for which optimizing factorial isn't very hard
2017-09-05T14:45:36Z karstensrage: well (fact 9999) returns instantly
2017-09-05T14:45:59Z Bike: computers are good at arithmetic.
2017-09-05T14:46:16Z karstensrage: ill write a java one and see if its that fast
2017-09-05T14:47:11Z Bike: on my sbcl, 9999! takes around 50 ms
2017-09-05T14:47:11Z xantoz: java doesn't have TCO, so you would probably have to write it iteratively
2017-09-05T14:47:31Z Bike: and 99999! smashes my stack
2017-09-05T14:47:41Z Bike: this is the very dumb version without TCO
2017-09-05T14:47:49Z jackdaniel: CL standard doesn't have TCO either, and most implementation which support it turn it off by default
2017-09-05T14:47:54Z jackdaniel: for sake of debugging
2017-09-05T14:48:11Z xantoz: right. I was assuming he was using some CL implementation with TCO and it turned on
2017-09-05T14:48:16Z Bike: still, 9999! means ten thousand stack frames, could be worse
2017-09-05T14:48:27Z Bike: most of the time is probably bignum arithmetic or consing
2017-09-05T14:48:53Z pjb: karstensrage: the point is not that lisp is fast, it's that lisp is correct!
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2017-09-05T14:51:11Z karstensrage: TCO is tail call optimization?
2017-09-05T14:51:27Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-09-05T14:51:35Z karstensrage: ok thanks
2017-09-05T14:51:42Z karstensrage: so far pretty impressed
2017-09-05T14:51:53Z pjb: see for example: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/comp.lang.lisp$20pjb$20informatimago.com$20%22defun$20fact$20%22/comp.lang.lisp/m-XsCgI_jD4/M66oAe14zwYJ
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2017-09-05T14:54:28Z Shinmera: Also see Section 5 http://www.cliki.net/Infrequently%20Asked%20Questions
2017-09-05T14:54:30Z xantoz: speaking of Java, I found it incredibly annoying that they have specified their integers to overflow, without even an exception or reasonable way of detecting it, when I was implementing a toy lisp interpreter (with full bignum stack) on top of Java
2017-09-05T14:55:18Z xantoz: TCO was possible by wrapping eval in while (true) { }, however ;)
2017-09-05T14:55:23Z Shinmera: Well you can't detect overflow in C either
2017-09-05T14:55:52Z Shinmera: Or most languages that take after it, as far as I know
2017-09-05T14:56:14Z xantoz: Shinmera: you can at least drop down to assembly with C, and detect it in an architecture specific way
2017-09-05T14:56:28Z White_Flame: nor does C expose the carry flag, which always irkedme
2017-09-05T14:56:40Z TMA: Shinmera: an implementation is permitted to raise an integer overflow exception when signed arithmetic overflows
2017-09-05T14:56:45Z Shinmera: ASM isn't standard though, yeah?
2017-09-05T14:56:45Z xantoz: not all architectures have a carry flag/there might be other ways
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2017-09-05T14:57:00Z xantoz: the asm keyword is standard
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2017-09-05T14:57:26Z xantoz: what goes into it is obviously not standardised
2017-09-05T14:57:55Z Shinmera: Right. So arguably it's not part of C, but instead of your compiler :)
2017-09-05T14:57:58Z Bike: huh, the java standard really does just say do modular arithmetic silently
2017-09-05T14:58:40Z White_Flame: yeah, if you look at the JVM instructions, it's very low level when it comes to math, with which primitive type to use as part of the instruction
2017-09-05T14:58:42Z Bike: and specifically says it cannot throw an exception
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2017-09-05T14:59:19Z xantoz: IIRC some processor architectures can actually cause an interrupt on overflow
2017-09-05T14:59:21Z TMA: it is still a bit better than saying "check your JVM documentation which arithmetic operations throw exception and when"
2017-09-05T14:59:27Z Bike: granted
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2017-09-05T15:00:23Z Xach: oho!
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2017-09-05T15:00:47Z TMA: xantoz: yes. MIPS has signed arithmetic, that interrupts on overflow and unsigned, that does not; X86 has INTO (interupt if overflow) instruction
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2017-09-05T15:01:18Z Xach: sbcl is a bit lax. i just did (defackage foo (:documentation "bar" (:use cl) (:export ...))) and was baffled by the bugs for a few minutes.
2017-09-05T15:01:58Z Xach: :documentation must be a single string and no more!
2017-09-05T15:02:04Z _death: Xach: you just need your code to follow the documentation :)
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2017-09-05T15:04:58Z stylewarning: I've wanted to make a library to parse S-expression lists better
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2017-09-05T15:06:56Z beach: stylewarning: What would the library do?  And what would it improve upon?
2017-09-05T15:07:38Z stylewarning: I guess I've been a little tired writing repetitive code to check the validity of some S-expression with some syntax.
2017-09-05T15:08:22Z stylewarning: Which I usually do extremely rigorously for good error messages.
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2017-09-05T15:10:14Z pjb: Shinmera: this is incorrect.  The C standard allows implementations to detect overflow and to signal conditions.  Only it doesn't imposes it, and almost all implementations don't try to detect it.  But nothing in the C standard prevents an implementation to do the same as Lisp implementations.
2017-09-05T15:11:14Z _death: also there are well-known ways to detect integer overflows
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2017-09-05T15:16:09Z _death: still software commonly doesn't bother, and the CVEs pile up when they affect security, little drops in the ocean
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2017-09-05T15:16:28Z Shinmera: like tears in the rain
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2017-09-05T15:28:09Z beach: stylewarning: You may look at some patter-matching code.  I think OnLisp has some, as does PAIP.
2017-09-05T15:28:43Z stylewarning: I have of course. But I want something specifically designed, actually, for writing complex macros
2017-09-05T15:29:01Z stylewarning: Maybe pattern matching like that in PAIP or even Optima are part of the answer, but I want more
2017-09-05T15:29:13Z beach: OK.
2017-09-05T15:29:58Z stylewarning: Like using a stock pattern library won't tell you what subpattern fails with nice names and stuff
2017-09-05T15:30:37Z stylewarning: I also started but never completed a project to turn Lisp into data structures
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2017-09-05T15:31:11Z stylewarning: Specifically, parse and unparse, say, a LET form as it would appear in an AST node, or so
2017-09-05T15:31:54Z stylewarning: So I could write macros which build these data structures instead of splicing lists. I'm not sure really what that experiment would show
2017-09-05T15:32:49Z beach: I have a reader that can create what I call "concrete syntax trees", or CSTs.  They are basically S-expressions wrapped in standard instances so that source information can be preserved.
2017-09-05T15:33:28Z beach: And I am currently working on a compiler front-end to convert CSTs to "abstract syntax trees" or ASTs as defined in the Cleavir compiler framework.
2017-09-05T15:34:04Z stylewarning: CSTs are good (:
2017-09-05T15:34:27Z stylewarning: I think that's the term of art, no?
2017-09-05T15:34:37Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Concrete-Syntax-Tree
2017-09-05T15:34:50Z beach: I wouldn't know.
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2017-09-05T15:35:56Z stylewarning: I have heard the term before for exactly the purpose you're describing (tracking position information)
2017-09-05T15:36:28Z beach: Are you sure it wasn't me who used it here? :)
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2017-09-05T15:40:06Z TMA: beach: I have heard in the early 2000's in a compiler construction course; I am quite certain it was not you, unless you have changed your name, nationality and university affiliation since then
2017-09-05T15:40:48Z beach: TMA: I did not.  I'll look for other uses of it at some point.
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2017-09-05T15:51:17Z beach: TMA: Found some definitions.  Thanks.
2017-09-05T15:52:20Z Shinmera: Well, that was easier than expected. Hoorah for further Portacle stability! https://github.com/Shinmera/portacle/issues/38#issuecomment-327216699
2017-09-05T15:52:48Z Shinmera hopes that was the actual fix. A clean build is still compiling.
2017-09-05T15:52:50Z phoe: Yay!
2017-09-05T15:53:03Z beach: Shinmera: Congratulations!
2017-09-05T15:53:43Z Shinmera: Now I just need to figure out why it refuses to build on OS X 10.11, fix that ASDF issue, and then it should be ready for 1.0, I think.
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2017-09-05T16:00:09Z Shinmera: If anyone knows a better way to do https://github.com/Shinmera/portacle/issues/37 than https://github.com/Shinmera/portacle/blob/master/config/sbcl-init.lisp#L46 I'd be all ears
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2017-09-05T16:43:04Z vtomole: clhs loop
2017-09-05T16:43:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2017-09-05T16:49:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: does second-climacs use presentation for "syntax classes" e.g. (string, number, symbol, keyword, etc..)?
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2017-09-05T17:25:29Z xantoz: meta-2 /buffer *2
2017-09-05T17:25:33Z xantoz: oops
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2017-09-05T17:37:29Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: It doesn't do anything at the moment, but that's what is planned.
2017-09-05T17:38:40Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: The plan is even to distinguish between different "roles" of symbols, such as lexical variables, global functions, etc.
2017-09-05T17:43:07Z beach: I am even thinking of a way to show so-called UD and DU chains.  Imagine hovering the pointer over the use of a lexical variable and get all the places where it might get its value highlighted.  Or the other way around, hovering the pointer over a binding or assignment to a variable and get all the possible corresponding uses highlighted.
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2017-09-05T19:18:11Z stylewarning: beach: I'm pretty sure!
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2017-09-05T19:39:42Z fe[nl]ix: uint: very nice blog post :)
2017-09-05T19:39:53Z fe[nl]ix: I'll read it more thoroughly later
2017-09-05T19:40:55Z uint: thank you ;)
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2017-09-05T20:02:14Z jollygood2: what construct would one usually use to do the job of list comprehensions? loop?
2017-09-05T20:02:25Z mfiano: map
2017-09-05T20:02:33Z mfiano: or one of its variants, loop also works
2017-09-05T20:02:55Z jollygood2: i can't see how i could easily express them with map, particularly when iterating over multiple lists
2017-09-05T20:03:02Z mfiano: map is nice in that it is a higher order function, so it fits this task well
2017-09-05T20:05:08Z jollygood2: for example, given list that is '(0 1 2) and "abc" string, I want lisp equivalent of this: [(0,'a'),(0,'b'),(0,'c'),(1,'a'),(1,'b'),(1,'c'),(2,'a'),(2,'b'),(2,'c')]
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2017-09-05T20:07:53Z mfiano: look at alexandria map-combinations
2017-09-05T20:09:10Z mfiano: i think what you want is similar to cartesian product?
2017-09-05T20:09:22Z mfiano: if not the same.
2017-09-05T20:10:07Z mfiano: I guess you would need to (mapcar #'string (coerce "abc" 'list)) on the string first or similar, if you char acter characters vs strings as letters
2017-09-05T20:10:13Z jollygood2: yes kind of, except that what you do with each combination is arbitrary, consing them  was just an example
2017-09-05T20:11:04Z mfiano: well then map-combinations
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2017-09-05T20:22:16Z mfiano: It would be pretty trivial to write a higher order function with a key argument defaulting to #'identity which uses map-combinations to do what you want I am pretty sure
2017-09-05T20:22:28Z pjb: jollygood2: (map 'list 'list '(0 1 2) "abc") #| --> ((0 #\a) (1 #\b) (2 #\c)) |#
2017-09-05T20:22:32Z mfiano: Unless I am just misunderstanding you
2017-09-05T20:23:09Z mfiano: pjb: he wants every combination. where is (0 #\b) etc?
2017-09-05T20:23:35Z mfiano: I offered a solution. Not sure if it is exactly what he wants
2017-09-05T20:25:39Z jollygood2: map-combination may be what i want, i'm installing alexandria now (new pc)
2017-09-05T20:25:41Z mfiano: Something like https://gist.github.com/mfiano/ae612803401e85894c4987d000f32f25
2017-09-05T20:25:48Z mfiano: Not sure if that is correct. quick sketch
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2017-09-05T20:26:40Z pjb: Oh, ok.
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2017-09-05T20:30:28Z drmeister: What is the freenode channel for learning Common Lisp? Lispcafe?
2017-09-05T20:30:53Z antoszka: drmeister: #clnoobs, #lisp
2017-09-05T20:31:15Z drmeister: Thank you
2017-09-05T20:31:39Z antoszka: drmeister: #lispcafe is mostly a lisper off-topic hangout :)
2017-09-05T20:31:48Z mfiano: jollygood2: Looking at my results, it maps sequences with themselves too, which is not part of the output you gave. for example (0 1), (1 2)
2017-09-05T20:31:54Z mfiano: So I'm not sure if that is ok
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2017-09-05T20:32:39Z jollygood2: yeah that is different than what i want
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2017-09-05T20:36:41Z mfiano: Somehow I think the answer uses mapcar and apply, but I can't dedicate brainpower to this problem right now
2017-09-05T20:36:47Z mfiano: Sorry!
2017-09-05T20:37:03Z jollygood2: nested maps would work. or nested loops
2017-09-05T20:38:58Z jollygood2: (let ((xs '(0 1 2)) (ys '(10 20 30))) (mapcar (lambda (x) (mapcar (lambda (y) (list x y)) ys)) xs))
2017-09-05T20:39:00Z jollygood2: (((0 10) (0 20) (0 30)) ((1 10) (1 20) (1 30)) ((2 10) (2 20) (2 30)))
2017-09-05T20:39:04Z jollygood2: just have to flatten it
2017-09-05T20:39:37Z jackdaniel: (alexandria:flatten *)
2017-09-05T20:40:59Z mfiano: wrong kind of flatten
2017-09-05T20:41:23Z jollygood2: with my original input: (let ((xs '(0 1 2)) (ys "abc")) (mapcar (lambda (x) (map 'list (lambda (y) (list x y)) ys)) xs))
2017-09-05T20:42:21Z jollygood2: is there a right kind in alexandria or standard lib?
2017-09-05T20:42:34Z pjb: drmeister: if you ask about car in #lispcafe, you'll get http://www.car.fr ; if you ask about it in #lisp you'll get clhs car, and if you ask showing some consideration in #clnoobs you may get a personalized explaination.
2017-09-05T20:44:02Z mfiano: jollygood2: (apply #'append ...)
2017-09-05T20:44:08Z pjb: jollygood2: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:combine '(0 1 2) (coerce "abc" 'list))
2017-09-05T20:44:30Z jollygood2: isn't apply problematic if I have too many elements?
2017-09-05T20:45:02Z mfiano: Only if you are using ABCL really
2017-09-05T20:45:16Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/850b9f808b54cabeb4c6af23621051b2
2017-09-05T20:45:47Z Shinmera: Depends on how many arguments you have.
2017-09-05T20:46:12Z Shinmera: Clisp f.e. has call-arguments-limit at 4096.
2017-09-05T20:46:12Z mfiano: on SBCL and CCL that is nearly a 64bit number repesenting max arguments
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2017-09-05T20:50:12Z _death: if you want the cartesian product, there's alexandria:map-product
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2017-09-05T20:50:46Z mfiano: yes thts exactly what he wants heh
2017-09-05T20:50:52Z drmeister: pjb: thank you
2017-09-05T20:51:02Z mfiano: use that instead. it is surely more efficient than your version
2017-09-05T20:51:12Z jollygood2: nice
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2017-09-05T20:54:36Z mfiano: I think anyway. I've never used that function. Still no time for brainpower.
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2017-09-05T20:55:25Z jollygood2: it does exactly what i want
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2017-09-05T21:12:10Z pjb: jollygood2: if you have too many elements, you may use instead: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355137
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2017-09-05T21:19:17Z jollygood2: thanks pjb, _death, mfiano and others. i'll bbl
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2017-09-05T23:55:30Z bou: hi
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2017-09-06T00:51:24Z ricabrera is now known as babalua
2017-09-06T00:51:28Z pillton: bou: It is better to just ask your question in order to start a discussion.
2017-09-06T00:51:38Z dmitryl: Hi! Please, can anyone explain me why incf function is missing in sbcl and what to use instead? Thx.
2017-09-06T00:51:50Z pillton: It isn't missing.
2017-09-06T00:52:34Z pillton: dmitryl: You can use paste.lisp.org to share your code.
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2017-09-06T00:57:15Z dmitryl: I found my mistake while trying to explain it. Thank you anyway :)
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2017-09-06T01:05:16Z anticrisis: Hi folks, does anyone know where to find the CDR (Common Lisp Document Repository) mailing list archives? This page only links to email addresses: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/#mailing
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2017-09-06T01:18:43Z anticrisis: Ok, how about an easier question? Should I use EQ or EQL to compare the integer results of two functions?
2017-09-06T01:19:05Z Bike: eql
2017-09-06T01:19:13Z Bike: eq is undefined on integers
2017-09-06T01:19:51Z anticrisis: woah, didn't know that. SBCL (eq 5 5) returns T
2017-09-06T01:20:24Z Bike: try (eq (1+ most-positive-fixnum) (1+ most-positive-fixnum))
2017-09-06T01:21:24Z anticrisis: how dare you add 1 to something which is called "most positive"
2017-09-06T01:21:58Z anticrisis: maybe SBCL should issue a warning, or something?
2017-09-06T01:22:25Z anticrisis: I mean, to the use of EQ on integers
2017-09-06T01:27:20Z mfiano: What's wrong with #'=?
2017-09-06T01:27:58Z anticrisis: umm
2017-09-06T01:29:27Z anticrisis: i suppose that would be the more obvious choice
2017-09-06T01:29:53Z Bike: i think someone was actually working on that warning
2017-09-06T01:30:00Z mfiano: I enjoyed your blog post. Nice to see you learning lisp by the way
2017-09-06T01:30:09Z anticrisis: oh thank you :)
2017-09-06T01:31:28Z Bike: but there's not much reason to use eq on sbcl anyway, it can reduce eql when it's possible
2017-09-06T01:32:38Z anticrisis: i was looking at CDR-8, generic equality and comparison... so i'm thinking about equality, a laudable goal
2017-09-06T01:34:19Z anticrisis: i think the spec for EQUALS is inconsistent with respect to hash tables, but wanted to review mailing list discussions about it... but can't find them
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2017-09-06T01:52:22Z edgar-rft: Two integers *can* be EQ when it's two time the same integer stored at the same memory location. But that's usually *not* what you want to know.
2017-09-06T01:52:56Z JohnTalent: Shame the loop constructs are so taught and mishapen. dolist, recursion but *not* loop.
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2017-09-06T02:02:10Z edgar-rft: In case anticrisis returns or anybody else wants to know, the currently valid email adresses fo all common-lisp.net mailinglists can be found here: <https://mailman.common-lisp.net/listinfo/>
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2017-09-06T02:59:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-06T03:21:39Z loke: edgar-rft: Your comment about integers and EQ is not really correct
2017-09-06T03:21:48Z anticrisis: edgar-rft: thank you! was offline but checked the irc logs just in case, appreciate the pointer
2017-09-06T03:22:01Z loke: if the integers are within FIXNUM range, they will be EQ in all Lisp implementations that I know of.
2017-09-06T03:23:57Z aeth: The implementation would have to work to make them *not* eq
2017-09-06T03:24:29Z loke: aeth: Exactly. :-)
2017-09-06T03:24:58Z loke: Well, arguably, I think ABCL can make it happen. It can box integers.
2017-09-06T03:26:01Z loke: I'm trying to force that right now, but I can't seem to be able to.
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2017-09-06T03:28:15Z loke: Yay. I did it.
2017-09-06T03:28:32Z aeth: Well, I guess with ABCL, the JVM does all the hard work
2017-09-06T03:28:47Z aeth: How did you do it?
2017-09-06T03:28:55Z loke: On ABCL, the following yields T: (eq most-positive-fixnum most-positive-fixnum)
2017-09-06T03:29:11Z loke: however, the value of most-positive-fixnum is 2147483647, so
2017-09-06T03:29:20Z loke: this yields NIL: (eq 2147483647 2147483647)
2017-09-06T03:29:56Z aeth: 32 bit?
2017-09-06T03:30:07Z loke: I believe this is because ABCL creates a boxed integer using Integer.valueOf(). The JVM uses preallocated instances of boxed integers up to a limit (256, I think?)
2017-09-06T03:30:50Z loke: And I confirm that (eq 255 255) is T, while (eq 256 256) is NIL.
2017-09-06T03:31:05Z loke: So it clearly does exactly that.
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2017-09-06T03:43:09Z aeth: so ABCL's real fixnum is 255 :-P
2017-09-06T03:47:39Z edgar-rft: loke: (was away, sorry for the delay) If I understand that right is that "all objects that can be confused with a memory pointer" can also be EQ? I'm asking because a memory pointer at the machine level *is* a fixnum.
2017-09-06T03:49:23Z loke: edgar-rft: The formally correct answer is: There is no way of knowing, since different CL implementations do different things and the standard has nothing to say on the subject other than that the result is unpredictable.
2017-09-06T03:49:45Z loke: The CL spec has no conect of a "memory pointer".
2017-09-06T03:49:55Z beach: concept
2017-09-06T03:49:59Z loke: ABCL doesn't have that concept at all.
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2017-09-06T03:51:08Z loke: Now, you can of course investigate specific CL implementations to determine how something is implemented, as I just did with ABCL. It's an interesting intellectual excersise, and quite fun to do, but the results only apply to that particular implementation, and can change at any time.
2017-09-06T03:53:45Z beach: edgar-rft: Regarding your comment about the same integer being stored in some memory location, can I assume that you know that some (most?) implementations store fixnums directly in the "pointer" without allocating any memory?
2017-09-06T03:54:26Z edgar-rft: loke: I just have read the "Notes" section of CLHS EQ, and in deed it looks very messy. Thank you for pointing things out. One can learn every day something new on #lisp :-)
2017-09-06T03:54:28Z beach: edgar-rft: And that this is the reason why some implementations return true when EQ is applied to similar fixnums.
2017-09-06T03:55:41Z beach: edgar-rft: The situation you mention can happen of course, but only for bignums in a typical implementation.  But I suppose you know this, right?
2017-09-06T03:55:50Z phoe: loke: actually
2017-09-06T03:55:54Z edgar-rft: beach: yes, I know, that's what I meant with "can be confused with a memory pointer", but "integer" can also be a bignum
2017-09-06T03:56:26Z phoe: in Java, small Integers (0-255) are cached, that's why ABCL is saying they are EQ.
2017-09-06T03:56:59Z phoe: Larger Integers are always created anew, so you are accessing two different Java instances of Integer class, which cannot be EQ.
2017-09-06T03:57:01Z edgar-rft: beach: the case I constructed was a situation that probably nobody really needs in practice. I was aware of that.
2017-09-06T03:57:15Z beach: OK.
2017-09-06T03:57:17Z phoe: Which actually outlines the idea of why EQ can fail for numbers pretty well.
2017-09-06T03:57:19Z loke: phoe: Correct. Which is exactly what I said, was it not?
2017-09-06T03:57:37Z phoe: loke: Woah, you did!
2017-09-06T03:57:40Z loke: phoe: I also believe it's -256 to 255 :-)
2017-09-06T03:57:53Z phoe: Negatives too? Oh.
2017-09-06T03:57:59Z loke: I think so.
2017-09-06T03:57:59Z phoe: I need to read up more.
2017-09-06T03:58:15Z phoe: And I need to read more closely.
2017-09-06T03:59:22Z edgar-rft: loke, beach: But I wasn't really aware that *most* implemetations think of fixnums as EQable. So... thank you!
2017-09-06T04:00:10Z edgar-rft will nontheless will continue to compare integers with EQL or =
2017-09-06T04:00:26Z phoe: very good instinct
2017-09-06T04:02:57Z anticrisis: hi again, I think what sparked this discussion was my investigation into CDR 8, generic equality... and I think there's a problem with one part of it... should I email cdr-discuss? The last message on that list was in 2014.
2017-09-06T04:03:55Z anticrisis: or should i email the author directly? or is there a better route to provide feedback?
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2017-09-06T04:04:36Z anticrisis: or, frankly, does anyone actually care so many years later? :-)
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2017-09-06T04:08:25Z beach: anticrisis: There is a fundamental flaw with the idea of a generic equality function.
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2017-09-06T04:08:46Z beach: anticrisis: To work, it needs a third parameter, namely a "situation".
2017-09-06T04:09:11Z beach: The thing is that, whether two objects are equal or not, does not depend only on the objects, but also on the situation.
2017-09-06T04:09:35Z beach: For example, the phone company considers me and my wife to be the same person, because we have the same phone number.
2017-09-06T04:12:13Z anticrisis: beach: yes, that is true
2017-09-06T04:12:45Z beach: anticrisis: Kent Pitman wrote about this.  Did you read that page?
2017-09-06T04:12:45Z anticrisis: but i also find the idea of a total ordering across types to be quite useful, for example when dealing with hash table keys
2017-09-06T04:13:08Z anticrisis: uh nope
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2017-09-06T04:13:22Z anticrisis: i just went through the cdr-discuss archives
2017-09-06T04:13:23Z beach: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2017-09-06T04:13:44Z anticrisis: thanks, let me look at that
2017-09-06T04:14:15Z anticrisis: meantime, total ordering, which for e.g. Erlang uses, is useful, no?
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2017-09-06T04:26:04Z anticrisis: if i want to make a hash table implementation that accepts arbitrary user-defined structures as keys, i have to define equality and comparison generically -- usually with a hash code function like SXHASH
2017-09-06T04:30:51Z phoe: not really
2017-09-06T04:31:06Z phoe: "arbitrary user-defined structures" actually follow patterns
2017-09-06T04:31:39Z phoe: all standard user-defined classes will be of types STRUCTURE-CLASS or STANDARD-CLASS for example
2017-09-06T04:32:05Z phoe: and all implementation-specific objects are enumerable and can, in the worst case, have different clauses for SXHASH.
2017-09-06T04:32:27Z phoe: I mean, types of all implementation-specific objects.
2017-09-06T04:32:38Z edgar-rft: not neccessarily. Spaghetti can have "arbitrary user-defined structures" that won't be accepted by any computer
2017-09-06T04:33:04Z Zhivago: Start by considering the equality operator you've configured the hash-table to use.
2017-09-06T04:33:24Z phoe: so I think that your implication has a false premise
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2017-09-06T04:34:10Z edgar-rft: what I wanted to point out is that the whole program depends on a possibly exact definition of  "arbitrary user-defined structures", because computers can't handle real arbitrariness.
2017-09-06T04:34:55Z Zhivago: It doesn't really -- it depends on which equality operator he's using -- that will provide the semantics.
2017-09-06T04:35:51Z edgar-rft: right, on the definition of "equality", too
2017-09-06T04:36:36Z Zhivago: If he's using EQ or EQL, then structure doesn't come into it.
2017-09-06T04:37:12Z edgar-rft: "structure" can be anything, not only defstruct
2017-09-06T04:38:33Z Zhivago: Sure, but EQ and EQL are identity operators.
2017-09-06T04:38:47Z phoe: all structures, end in end, are just words of computer memory
2017-09-06T04:39:11Z phoe: in the end*
2017-09-06T04:39:18Z phoe: it's too early for me to use English
2017-09-06T04:39:36Z edgar-rft: not with my spaghetti example above
2017-09-06T04:40:31Z edgar-rft: phoe: write in polish and use Google translator, we wanna have something to laugh about
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2017-09-06T04:42:01Z anticrisis: i have a simple example, let me make a paste...
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2017-09-06T04:43:21Z anticrisis: http://paste.lisp.org/+7M19
2017-09-06T04:43:54Z anticrisis: ok, so we know why it behaves this way, but what if I want to make a hash table where those 'foo instances all refer to the same slot?
2017-09-06T04:45:23Z edgar-rft: does that mean if you store a new instance into the hash-table, you want an old instance to be overwritten?
2017-09-06T04:45:28Z anticrisis: yes
2017-09-06T04:46:29Z anticrisis: because, let's say, 'foo is some complex structure that indicates an address, and two instances of 'foo with the same slot values should be understood to refer to the same place
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2017-09-06T04:47:53Z anticrisis: (equalp (make-instance 'foo) (make-instance 'foo)) is NIL, but I want an equality function that returns T
2017-09-06T04:48:08Z edgar-rft: the equality depends on the direct superclass or *any* superclass in the class hierarchy?
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2017-09-06T04:49:20Z anticrisis: i'd say all superclasses, at least those that have slots
2017-09-06T04:49:30Z anticrisis: does that matter?
2017-09-06T04:49:39Z edgar-rft: yes, very much
2017-09-06T04:50:01Z anticrisis: I'd settle for the simpler case
2017-09-06T04:52:00Z anticrisis: this is what got me on the hunt for a generic equality function, and how i ran across CDR 8...
2017-09-06T04:53:37Z anticrisis: in a variety of other languages, hash table keys can use hash functions that would make those three 'foo instances equivalent
2017-09-06T04:53:58Z phoe: there are hash tables in portable CL that accept any predicate
2017-09-06T04:54:17Z edgar-rft: And there is no simple case. A CLOS class can have e.g. several direct superclasses. Which one is more important needs *your* decision.
2017-09-06T04:54:27Z cromachina_: works for structs
2017-09-06T04:55:19Z anticrisis: phoe: any recommendations? eg fset, sycamore
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2017-09-06T04:57:42Z anticrisis: if i were to implement a new hash table library, i might use a generic function that returned a hash code, so users could provide their own specialized methods to hash their classes/structures however they wanted
2017-09-06T04:58:33Z anticrisis: rather than an arbitrary predicate function, which could wind up being slower than computing (and presumably caching) a hash
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2017-09-06T04:59:36Z loke: anticrisis: You'd need an equals function as well
2017-09-06T05:00:16Z loke: anticrisis: There are existing hash table implementations (on, the in the case of SBCL, buuilt-in) that allows you to pass arbitrary hash-code and equals-functions when creating the hashtable.
2017-09-06T05:00:19Z loke: That's more flexible.
2017-09-06T05:00:47Z loke: If you want to use a generic function, just pass that generic function to make-hash-table.
2017-09-06T05:00:59Z anticrisis: yes definitely, SBCL already solves this
2017-09-06T05:01:20Z loke: There are third-party hash table libraries that does the same, with pretty much the same API as the SBCL one.
2017-09-06T05:02:02Z anticrisis: so with that, do you think there's no point to CDR 8 anymore?
2017-09-06T05:02:39Z anticrisis: i guess i'm wondering if it's worth the effort to help fix it, and its implementation :generic-comparability, in Quicklisp
2017-09-06T05:03:25Z anticrisis: never mind, i'm guessing the answer is "it's up to you" :-)
2017-09-06T05:03:49Z loke: The concept of "equality" is very loose, and without the ability to, say, implement your own number classes by subclassing NUMBER, there is very little point to having it.
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2017-09-06T05:03:59Z cromachina_: you could also redefine sxhash and equalp if you are feeling dangerous
2017-09-06T05:04:24Z anticrisis: hah nice - that makes me nervous though :)
2017-09-06T05:04:31Z loke: If you could implement your own string class, you'd need to be able to to overload EQUALS so that it would work as expected for your new string class. But since CL doesn't provide this, what's the point?
2017-09-06T05:05:08Z loke: cromachina_: I wonder if there are any CL implementations that allows you to do tht. After all, EQUAL is typically inlined.
2017-09-06T05:05:30Z anticrisis: you could box up all the native types, of course
2017-09-06T05:06:22Z anticrisis: by "native" i mean the CL-defined types
2017-09-06T05:06:36Z Zhivago: Why would that help?
2017-09-06T05:07:56Z anticrisis: i was thinking in the context of defining your own NUMBER or STRING types, for whatever reasons
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2017-09-06T05:11:21Z cromachina_: loke, true
2017-09-06T05:11:42Z anticrisis: so, basically nobody online right now wants to defend CDR 8? :)
2017-09-06T05:11:56Z cromachina_: never used it..
2017-09-06T05:13:14Z anticrisis: i'm too influenced by erlang's total ordering approach... it's comforting to know you can compare a symbol to a list and always get the same answer, even if it's not immediately obvious why that's useful :)
2017-09-06T05:13:19Z loke: anticrisis: I think it's one of those things that newcomers to Lisp feels would be a neat way to "fix" Lisp... Kinda like the afforts to create a "readable" syntax phase that all beginners go through.
2017-09-06T05:13:55Z anticrisis: like i said in our messages that crossed, you're right about that -- bringing familiar and comfortable concepts from other languages
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2017-09-06T05:14:27Z anticrisis: I happen to like {:a 1 :b 2}, don't you? :)
2017-09-06T05:14:59Z loke: anticrisis: and that is different from a Lisp plist, how? (:a 1 :b 2)
2017-09-06T05:16:07Z anticrisis: actually i like plists too -- just more used to hash tables, which i also know are less efficient until they get a bit bigger
2017-09-06T05:16:19Z loke: I generally use alists
2017-09-06T05:16:25Z loke: But, to each their own
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2017-09-06T05:16:47Z anticrisis: i think erlang used plists primarily, and didn't add hash tables until just a few years ago
2017-09-06T05:16:53Z phoe: anticrisis: https://github.com/pnathan/genhash I think
2017-09-06T05:17:24Z anticrisis: phoe: ah yes, i was just looking at that, thank you!
2017-09-06T05:21:32Z anticrisis: thanks all for the discussion, it's always helpful
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2017-09-06T05:40:02Z anticrisis: phoe: interestingly, pnathan is also the author of :generic-comparability, an implementation of CDR 8, which has some problems on hash tables...
2017-09-06T05:46:35Z Zhivago: Well, generic equality is pretty well self contradictory.
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2017-09-06T05:49:32Z Zhivago: Does 8.0 equal 8? For some purposes yes, others no.
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2017-09-06T05:51:05Z edgar-rft: 8.0 is more equal than 8
2017-09-06T05:51:50Z loke: Also, there is a reasonable argument that floating point numbers aren't equal to anything.
2017-09-06T05:52:06Z loke: The poin tis that an FP number isn't just a value. It's an estimation.
2017-09-06T05:52:38Z loke: So you have "approximately 8.1" = "apprixomately 8.1". Is that true or not?
2017-09-06T05:53:03Z Zhivago: I'd say interval, but in any case, by some metrics some estimations may be considered equal.
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2017-09-06T05:53:30Z loke: Zhivago: You'd need a comparison tolerance in order to make that assertion
2017-09-06T05:53:39Z Zhivago: The key is that the equality isn't a property of the 8.0 -- it's a property of the equality operator.
2017-09-06T05:53:45Z Zhivago: And why is that a problem?
2017-09-06T05:53:47Z loke: APL is the only language I've used that has an explicit comparison tolerance value.
2017-09-06T05:53:58Z loke: Zhivago: Right.
2017-09-06T05:54:07Z Zhivago: (float= a b e) :)
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2017-09-06T05:54:22Z loke: Zhivago: No language other than APL (that I know of) does that.
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2017-09-06T06:27:14Z mrcom: anticrisis: I think you're looking for "deep equality" - the examination of two structures to see if their elements are themselves deeply equal.
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2017-09-06T06:37:53Z mrcom: I'm not aware of any languages that do that out of the box (not familiar with Erlang), but there's often some library available.
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2017-09-06T06:39:53Z anticrisis: mrcom: yes, that's part of it: CDR 8 specifies recursive tests to get you "deep equality."
2017-09-06T06:40:40Z Zhivago: It's not really very meaningful without considering what kind of deep equality that is -- does it mean interchangeability? Does it mean interchangeability under mutation? Does it mean some other form of equivalence?
2017-09-06T06:40:43Z anticrisis: phoe: I think this library is better, because it's more of a compatibility layer over implementations that provide hash tables that accept custom hash functions and predicates: https://github.com/metawilm/cl-custom-hash-table
2017-09-06T06:41:27Z mrcom: However, such libraries make assumptions about what "equals" means. They usually only consider two objects to be equal if they are of the same type.
2017-09-06T06:41:44Z mrcom: So floating-point 8.0 would not be equal to integer 8.
2017-09-06T06:41:51Z anticrisis: Zhivago: yes, but normally the context is well understood at the time. For instance, if I'm using deep equality to test hash table keys, it's because I want them to point to the same slot.
2017-09-06T06:42:09Z anticrisis: (like my example with class 'foo from before)
2017-09-06T06:42:10Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: afair it defines generic functions equals, compare and such
2017-09-06T06:42:25Z jackdaniel: so programmer is free to extend them to match their own problem domain definition of equality
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2017-09-06T06:44:15Z Zhivago: Extending a generic equality operator with equalities with different semantics just leads to incoherence.
2017-09-06T06:44:25Z anticrisis: jackdaniel: the implementation of CDR 8 in quicklisp is unfortunately slightly broken, and the spec itself is problematic with respect to hash tables
2017-09-06T06:44:46Z jackdaniel: I haven't seen this implementation, just read the CDR
2017-09-06T06:45:45Z jackdaniel: I like the idea
2017-09-06T06:46:51Z anticrisis: I do too, but an earlier discussion here seemed to indicate not much enthusiasm for it
2017-09-06T06:47:36Z jackdaniel: I don't have much entusiasm for big chunkns of CL standard, that doesn't mean these parts are not useful for others, everyone picks what suits him best
2017-09-06T06:47:50Z jackdaniel: or her
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2017-09-06T06:51:12Z anticrisis: do you happen to know if CDRs are still discussed somewhere?
2017-09-06T06:52:01Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/#mailing has mailing lists
2017-09-06T06:52:14Z anticrisis: unfortunately those are dormant since 2014
2017-09-06T06:52:41Z jackdaniel: until someone asks a question or proposes something and has a reply I'd say
2017-09-06T06:53:05Z jackdaniel: what I can say is that I try to implement some CDR's in ECL between releases
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2017-09-06T06:54:19Z anticrisis: ok, then i may write up my concerns with CDR 8's treatment of hash tables and email them into the hopefully-not void
2017-09-06T06:54:34Z jackdaniel: CDR1, CDR5, CDR7, CDR14 looking at *featuers* are there right now
2017-09-06T06:54:49Z jackdaniel: cool
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2017-09-06T07:07:50Z mrcom: Pardon my ignorance, but where are the semantics of HT-KEYS and HT-VALUES, referenced in CDR 8, defined?
2017-09-06T07:08:07Z anticrisis: that's actually part of what I'm writing about now...
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2017-09-06T07:08:40Z anticrisis: they're mean to reference the loop keywords hash-keys and hash-values
2017-09-06T07:08:43Z anticrisis: *meant
2017-09-06T07:09:01Z anticrisis: it's an example implementation, not code
2017-09-06T07:09:25Z anticrisis: and, the example is incomplete and flawed
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2017-09-06T07:10:05Z jackdaniel: you could write to the author, and you may write improved CDR (replacing this one)
2017-09-06T07:10:29Z anticrisis: you can loop through a hash table like this (loop for k being the hash-keys in ht using (hash-value v) do...)
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2017-09-06T07:12:14Z anticrisis: jackdaniel: i think i'll cc the author too, thanks
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2017-09-06T07:16:32Z malice: Can I use alexandria's once-only with macro which uses user-provided name?
2017-09-06T07:17:12Z malice: I'm thinking of macro like (defmacro with-user-name (name) (alexandria:once-only (name) `(let ((,name something)) (do-something))))
2017-09-06T07:17:21Z malice: The problem is, the name given by once-only is different from the name
2017-09-06T07:18:35Z malice: Is it "good style" just evaluating the provided name multiple times?
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2017-09-06T07:22:28Z Zhivago: Generally implicit multiple evaluation should be avoided.
2017-09-06T07:22:31Z jackdaniel: you could assert it is a symbol if you want to bind it, that would be better
2017-09-06T07:22:35Z jackdaniel: (defmacro with-user-name* (name) (check-type name symbol) `(let ((,name something)) (do-something)))
2017-09-06T07:23:07Z jackdaniel: if it  is a different kind of construct, then I'm not sure what you want to achieve by avoiding once-only for value
2017-09-06T07:23:29Z anticrisis: for anyone interested, here's a draft of my message on CDR 8 (set to expire in one day): http://paste.lisp.org/+7M1L
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2017-09-06T07:25:50Z Zhivago: What does equality between two hash tables mean? Does it mean that they can be used interchangeably (until mutated)?
2017-09-06T07:26:19Z anticrisis: Zhivago: yes, i believe that's what it means
2017-09-06T07:26:36Z Zhivago: Then you can't ignore the test they're configured to use.
2017-09-06T07:26:53Z anticrisis: for example, let's say you use a hash table for a certain collection of configuration params, and you want to test against another set...
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2017-09-06T07:27:14Z anticrisis: yes, that's correct
2017-09-06T07:27:41Z anticrisis: which is the problem with CDR-8 I'm pointing out
2017-09-06T07:28:05Z anticrisis: without concluding that the whole thing is invalid -- it's just an incomplete specification
2017-09-06T07:30:53Z mrcom: anticrisis: The whole equality definition for hash tables is broken. What would normally be wanted is what you did: (loop for k being the hash-keys in a
2017-09-06T07:30:54Z mrcom:             always (EQUALS (gethash k a) (gethash k b)))
2017-09-06T07:31:42Z anticrisis: right, i should probably use EQUALS there instead of EQL
2017-09-06T07:32:02Z anticrisis: but that's secondary to the main point that there's something wrong with CDR-8
2017-09-06T07:32:47Z mrcom: Special-case might be keys-only search, and very rarely values-only. Never, ever want "same set of keys" and "same set of values" disjointly, which is what CDR 8 specifies.
2017-09-06T07:33:02Z anticrisis: yeah, i think that whole thing is weird
2017-09-06T07:33:17Z anticrisis: the fact that keys and values are disjoint
2017-09-06T07:33:53Z anticrisis: (equals (:a 1 :b 2) (:a 2 :b 1))
2017-09-06T07:33:55Z Zhivago: What might make sense is to distinguish between the equality of the hash-tables and the hash-tables contents.
2017-09-06T07:33:58Z anticrisis: bizzare
2017-09-06T07:35:18Z anticrisis: Zhivago: I'd call the former "identity", like EQ, and the latter a "deep equality," in the way EQUALP works
2017-09-06T07:36:05Z anticrisis: but CDR-8 is trying to provide something that is like EQUALP, if I'm following it correctly
2017-09-06T07:36:23Z mrcom: Just a think-o by CDR-8's author. I'd suggest you just rewrite the whole thing - "case 1: compare keys and values, case 2: compare keys only, case 3: compare values only.", and drop the "in parallel".
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2017-09-06T07:40:19Z mrcom: BTW, what's quicklisp doing wrong?
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2017-09-06T07:42:35Z anticrisis: what's quicklisp doing wrong? what do you mean?
2017-09-06T07:43:36Z jackdaniel: I think he referes to the implementation available in QL
2017-09-06T07:44:29Z anticrisis: oh, maybe i should just remove that from my note, it's ancillary.
2017-09-06T07:45:36Z mrcom: No, that was my question - what's the QL implementation of CDR-8 doing wrong?
2017-09-06T07:45:48Z anticrisis: oh - hold on...
2017-09-06T07:46:04Z mrcom: Sorry, the lib avail via QL.
2017-09-06T07:46:13Z anticrisis: firstly, this issue: https://github.com/pnathan/generic-comparability/issues/5
2017-09-06T07:47:22Z mrcom: OK, get it. He implemented his spec, which is broken.
2017-09-06T07:47:30Z anticrisis: yep
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2017-09-06T07:53:10Z anticrisis: does anyone know why sometimes emacs/SLIME repl decides to put backslashes in front of my " marks? have no idea why it does this sometimes and not other times.
2017-09-06T07:55:05Z anticrisis: I'm guessing it has something to do with some output in the buffer throwing off its parser -- clearing the buffer fixes the problem
2017-09-06T07:55:45Z jackdaniel: anticrisis: do you use paredit in your REPL?
2017-09-06T07:55:58Z jackdaniel: I had such problems, so I've left it enabled only for source code buffers
2017-09-06T08:00:55Z anticrisis: jackdaniel: yes, actually smartparens -- normally trouble-free
2017-09-06T08:05:50Z anticrisis: mrcom: fyi i think :generic-compatibility is completely broken with hash-tables, i'm about to file another issue.
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2017-09-06T08:14:42Z anticrisis: :generic-comparability I mean
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2017-09-06T10:11:12Z ralt: hello
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2017-09-06T10:24:56Z flip214: is "wc -l ~/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/systems.txt" the right way to count the number of systems in QL?
2017-09-06T10:25:52Z XachX: flip214: not the best.
2017-09-06T10:26:08Z flip214: or should I only count the number of distinct first words? Still 1547.
2017-09-06T10:26:50Z flip214: is there some official "number of libraries in QL" that's updated for each release?
2017-09-06T10:27:27Z jackdaniel: libraries aren't the same as systems
2017-09-06T10:27:42Z jackdaniel: one library may have dozen of them, often it has two: foo and foo-test
2017-09-06T10:27:46Z Xach: flip214: (length (ql-dist:provided-releases (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")))
2017-09-06T10:28:12Z Xach: quicklisp tracks the releases of libraries, so counting releases is the thing to try
2017-09-06T10:30:13Z flip214: so, the 1546 number seems legit.
2017-09-06T10:30:43Z flip214: thank you!
2017-09-06T10:31:48Z Xach: no
2017-09-06T10:32:26Z flip214: no thanks?
2017-09-06T10:32:45Z Xach: yes
2017-09-06T10:32:52Z Xach: maybe
2017-09-06T10:33:23Z flip214: reminds me of Louis de Funès
2017-09-06T10:34:19Z Xof: now there's a cultural reference
2017-09-06T10:35:16Z Xof: probably lost on (most of) the anglosphere
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2017-09-06T10:36:13Z flip214: nudge nudge wink wink.
2017-09-06T10:36:48Z flip214: Xof: I guess this reference only works for people > 35 years or so.
2017-09-06T10:40:00Z ralt: flip214: I'm not >35 y.o.
2017-09-06T10:41:59Z flip214: ralt: and you get the LdF reference? Well done.
2017-09-06T10:42:32Z ralt: flip214: I'm French, I think most people do
2017-09-06T10:42:41Z ralt: most French people do*
2017-09-06T10:44:21Z flip214: ralt: ah, okay. that's a good reason.
2017-09-06T10:44:56Z flip214: He was quite famous in the German-speaking world -- 30 years ago or so...
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2017-09-06T10:45:37Z jollygood2: hello. why doesn't this work?
2017-09-06T10:45:45Z jollygood2: (reduce 'funcall '(length (1+)) :initial-value "foo" :from-end t))
2017-09-06T10:45:58Z jollygood2: The value (1+) is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)
2017-09-06T10:47:20Z ralt: jollygood2: '(length . (1+)) would work "better"
2017-09-06T10:47:52Z jollygood2: (reduce 'funcall '(1+ length) :initial-value "foo" :from-end t))
2017-09-06T10:48:11Z phoe: jollygood2: you seem to want ALEXANDRIA:CURRY
2017-09-06T10:48:13Z jollygood2: this worked, but I am getting this odd warning. 0[8] Help! ERROR-ERROR is 3 levels deep. Will try to THROW this thread to the toplevel.
2017-09-06T10:48:33Z phoe: This isn't a warning. This is SBCL crying for help for some reason.
2017-09-06T10:48:54Z jollygood2: phoe judging by the name I don't think that is what I want
2017-09-06T10:49:12Z phoe: oh wait a second
2017-09-06T10:49:32Z phoe: oooh, I just got it
2017-09-06T10:49:46Z phoe: I never used reduce with funcall before.
2017-09-06T10:49:54Z phoe: clever
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2017-09-06T10:50:36Z jollygood2: yeah, it works fine, returns 4. still don't get that notice though. I can safely ignore it?
2017-09-06T10:50:44Z phoe: don't get that notice?
2017-09-06T10:50:46Z phoe: what do you mean?
2017-09-06T10:51:11Z jollygood2: Help! ... notification I pasted above
2017-09-06T10:51:14Z phoe: can you copypaste your whole Lisp session from terminal to me?
2017-09-06T10:51:37Z jollygood2: moment
2017-09-06T10:51:43Z phoe: This error is going to happen when you never leave the SBCL debugger when an error happens.
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2017-09-06T10:53:47Z phoe: When an error happens, you enter the Lisp debugger. And you, the user, are meant to explicitly exit it in such case instead of evaluating more stuff.
2017-09-06T10:54:35Z jollygood2: it seems that I didn't exit lisp debugger. I restarted sbcl and now it works fine
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2017-09-06T11:06:18Z phoe: Yep.
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2017-09-06T11:42:59Z _death: what you actually seem to want is alexandria:compose
2017-09-06T11:43:45Z phoe: oh right, that
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2017-09-06T12:08:32Z ralt: Excuse me #lisp, do you have a moment to talk about... logical pathnames?
2017-09-06T12:08:45Z ralt: I would like to make sure I'm getting something right.
2017-09-06T12:09:28Z ralt: first, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhn.htm says this:
2017-09-06T12:09:46Z ralt: > #P<<expression>> is equivalent to #.(parse-namestring '<<expression>>),
2017-09-06T12:10:05Z ralt: so, #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ" is equivalent to #.(parse-namestring "FOO:BAR;BAZ")
2017-09-06T12:10:18Z ralt: secondly, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pars_1.htm says the following:
2017-09-06T12:10:31Z ralt: > * If host is nil and thing is a syntactically valid logical pathname namestring containing an explicit host, then it is parsed as a logical pathname namestring.
2017-09-06T12:10:31Z ralt:  
2017-09-06T12:11:04Z ralt: so, as I understand it, #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ" is supposedly returning a LOGICAL-PATHNAME
2017-09-06T12:11:43Z ralt: lastly, when looking at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_tr_log.htm (TRANSLATE-LOGICAL-PATHNAME), it says:
2017-09-06T12:11:46Z ralt: > Pathname is first coerced to a pathname. If the coerced pathname is a physical pathname, it is returned. If the coerced pathname is a logical pathname, the first matching translation (according to pathname-match-p) of the logical pathname host is applied, as if by calling translate-pathname. If the result is a logical pathname, this process is repeated. When the result is finally a physical pathname, it is returned. If no translation
2017-09-06T12:11:47Z ralt:   matches, an error is signaled.
2017-09-06T12:12:21Z ralt: so, if no translation is set for "FOO", supposedly, (translate-logical-pathname #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ") should signal an error, right?
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2017-09-06T12:13:30Z ralt: right now, SBCL returns #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ", ECL returns #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ" in interpreted mode, NIL in compiled mode (I'm currently working on fixing ECL, and want to make sure the behavior is correct.)
2017-09-06T12:13:35Z ralt: CCL signals an error.
2017-09-06T12:13:46Z ralt: as I understand the spec, CCL is correct, right?
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2017-09-06T12:16:41Z phoe: I am completely no specialist but your train of thought seems correct.
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2017-09-06T12:16:59Z phoe: Logical pathnames are probably the most obscure and least understood part of the standard.
2017-09-06T12:17:40Z ralt: such a great feature, though
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2017-09-06T12:18:12Z Shinmera: debatable
2017-09-06T12:19:30Z ralt: pjb: given that we previously talked about that, could you confirm my train of thought above?
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2017-09-06T12:23:18Z pjb: ralt: yes, I think you found a bug in ecl and sbcl.
2017-09-06T12:23:30Z ralt: thank you
2017-09-06T12:23:44Z pjb: and in clisp too.
2017-09-06T12:23:48Z ralt: ECL already has an MR up for this, I'll report a bug to sbcl.
2017-09-06T12:23:56Z ralt: heh
2017-09-06T12:24:47Z ralt: should I give a heads-up in #sbcl before reporting the bug?
2017-09-06T12:25:22Z pjb: ralt: the error comes from make-pathname specification: "The resulting pathname is a logical pathname if and only its host component is a logical host or a string that names a defined logical host."
2017-09-06T12:25:36Z pjb: The host must be defined.
2017-09-06T12:25:42Z pjb: (if and only if).
2017-09-06T12:25:51Z drmeister: mop generic-function-argument-precedence-order
2017-09-06T12:25:51Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-argument-precedence-order.html
2017-09-06T12:25:57Z drmeister: What is this for?
2017-09-06T12:25:58Z pjb: parse-namestring has to call make-pathname.
2017-09-06T12:26:22Z ralt: pjb: but given that #.(parse-namestring) is called at read-time, no translation can be defined at this point?
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2017-09-06T12:26:54Z drmeister: Does it change what order arguments should be dispatched on when a generic function is called?
2017-09-06T12:26:57Z jackdaniel: you may read file after compiling the previous one, in that case it could be valid
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2017-09-06T12:27:11Z jackdaniel: if the earlier one had definition
2017-09-06T12:27:19Z pjb: drmeister: I think you should consider compute-applicable-methods to understand this generic function.  It's my guess it's used around it.
2017-09-06T12:27:54Z pjb: drmeister: perhaps it's used to implement the order in compute-application-methods?
2017-09-06T12:28:03Z ralt: jackdaniel: this makes it un-appliable in ECL's compiled mode though, given that the compilation step is entirely separate from the read-time step of runtime.
2017-09-06T12:28:20Z drmeister: Ok, that would be less horrifying than what I was contemplating.
2017-09-06T12:29:56Z ralt: jackdaniel: or is the bug in ECL that #P"" should already be resolved to something else? Or, generally speaking, that no read macro should be executed at runtime? (i.e. when running a compiled program)
2017-09-06T12:30:27Z jackdaniel: ralt: I think that eval-when should help for that even in ECL
2017-09-06T12:30:29Z pjb: read macros should be executed when the source is read.
2017-09-06T12:30:39Z pjb: ie. at :compilation-time or at :execute time.
2017-09-06T12:30:40Z jackdaniel: regarding setting translation
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2017-09-06T12:31:34Z pjb: But not at :load-toplevel time.  This is for load-forms and load-time-value expressions…
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2017-09-06T12:32:05Z ralt: jackdaniel: sorry, just lost my connection, did I miss something?
2017-09-06T12:32:15Z ralt: (I should setup a bnc..)
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2017-09-06T12:33:28Z pjb: ralt: nothing.
2017-09-06T12:33:38Z ralt: thanks
2017-09-06T12:33:50Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/files/bd892470
2017-09-06T12:33:53Z pjb: ralt: you can check at: https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/
2017-09-06T12:33:55Z jackdaniel: rault ↑
2017-09-06T12:33:59Z jackdaniel: ralt: *
2017-09-06T12:34:35Z ralt: thank you both
2017-09-06T12:35:41Z ralt: jackdaniel: eval-when didn't help, no, because as I understand it, there's no (eval-when (:read-toplevel))
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2017-09-06T12:37:56Z pjb: ralt: this is because of the bug.
2017-09-06T12:38:19Z ralt: pjb: clhs' parse-namestring doesn't mention make-pathname at all, or were you just saying the bug is because the implementations use it?
2017-09-06T12:38:59Z pjb: ralt: it has to use make-pathname. It could indeed use a lower-level implementation specific primitive, but the same semantics would have to be kept, I'd say.
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2017-09-06T12:40:42Z ralt: pjb: so, as I understand it, you're saying that you can't use custom logical pathnames if the translations hasn't been compiled in another file previously?
2017-09-06T12:40:55Z ralt: s/compiled/defined/
2017-09-06T12:42:07Z jackdaniel: I can imagine writing reader macro, which defines translation
2017-09-06T12:42:25Z jackdaniel: or even doing #.(setf …)
2017-09-06T12:42:45Z pjb: ralt: no. I'm saying there's a bug in ecl that makes it evaluate the reader macro too late.
2017-09-06T12:43:17Z pjb: Perhaps the reader macro returns (…) instead of calling eval on it?
2017-09-06T12:43:55Z pjb: ralt: you can test it:  #.(parse-pathname "FOO:BAR.BAZ")  vs. #P"FOO:BAR.BAZ"  ; the former should work, assuming #. works.
2017-09-06T12:44:22Z pjb: also, check *read-suppress* and notice that the reader macro is "like" #. : it should not be subject to *read-suppress* (AFAIK).
2017-09-06T12:44:29Z ralt: also, clhs' parse-namestring says "if ... thing is a syntactically valid logical pathname namestring.... then it is parsed as a logical pathname namestring", which seems to conflict with "it has to use make-pathname rules", no?
2017-09-06T12:44:57Z ralt: pjb: in ECL, #P currently respects *read-suppress* (yet another bug, I guess)
2017-09-06T12:45:00Z pjb: make-pathname is used to build pathnames whatever they are. make-pathname has no parsing rules. only argument consistency rules.
2017-09-06T12:45:39Z ralt: but parse-namestring does have parsing rules
2017-09-06T12:45:46Z ralt: hence my confusion, I guess
2017-09-06T12:45:54Z pjb:  (let ((*read-suppress* nil)) (read-from-string "#P\"foo\"")) #| --> #P"foo" ; 7 |#
2017-09-06T12:46:01Z jollygood2: is there a function that composes two functions?
2017-09-06T12:46:37Z jollygood2: (lambda (f g) (lambda (x) (funcall f (funcall g x)))
2017-09-06T12:46:37Z Shinmera: Compose them how
2017-09-06T12:46:40Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:compose swank::compose  alexandria:compose
2017-09-06T12:46:55Z pjb: and indeed, you named it, this anonymous function.
2017-09-06T12:47:35Z pjb: (note: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:compose is actually a macro, so it compose them at compilation-time providing a more efficient composed function).
2017-09-06T12:48:24Z pjb: (macroexpand '(com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:compose f g h)) #| --> #'(lambda (&rest com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility::args) (f (g (apply #'h com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility::args)))) ; t |#
2017-09-06T12:49:13Z jollygood2: pjb is efficiency a worthy trade off of not being able to pass it to a higher order function without wrapping it in a lambda first?
2017-09-06T12:49:28Z pjb: for this there are the others!
2017-09-06T12:49:54Z phoe: jollygood2: alexandria:compose is very popular
2017-09-06T12:50:24Z pjb: (mapcar (compose 1+ second list) '(1 2 3 4 5) '(10 20 30 40) '(100 200 300 400)) #| --> (11 21 31 41) |#
2017-09-06T12:50:44Z pjb: it's rare to have HOHOF.
2017-09-06T12:50:47Z ralt: pjb: #.(parse-namestring "FOO:BAR;BAZ") has exactly the same behavior in ECL
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2017-09-06T12:52:55Z ralt: (also, (let ((*read-suppress* t)) (read-from-string "#P\"foo\"")) returns NIL in ECL.)
2017-09-06T12:53:30Z pjb: (load (compile-file "/tmp/f.lisp")) (f) --> The function F is undefined. in ecl (not the other implementations).
2017-09-06T12:54:43Z ralt: (and #P is not mentioned in *read-suppress*'s page)
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2017-09-06T12:54:47Z pjb: ralt: this is correct.  But this checks only read-time.  We have a problem with having the read-time expressions being evaluated at compilation-time, and their result to be compiled in.
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2017-09-06T12:56:56Z ralt: ah, and read-time expressions should also be evaluated at execute time?
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2017-09-06T12:57:34Z pjb: In the situation :execute too, of course, since in that situation the source is read.
2017-09-06T12:57:57Z pjb: The source is read at :compile-toplevel and at :execute.  The fasl is read at :load-toplevele.
2017-09-06T12:58:22Z ralt: ok, so #P"" should be evaluated twice
2017-09-06T12:58:30Z pjb: No, only once.
2017-09-06T12:58:44Z pjb: Because either you do (load "source.lisp") or (load (compile-file "source.lisp"))
2017-09-06T12:58:51Z pjb: so there's only one read.
2017-09-06T12:59:11Z ralt: err, (load (compile-file "source.lisp")) does 2 reads, no?
2017-09-06T12:59:20Z pjb: No. Sexps are read only once.
2017-09-06T12:59:35Z pjb: In that case, load will load a fasl file. No read-time there. Only load-time.
2017-09-06T12:59:50Z ralt: but then, (load (compile-file "source.lisp")) should execute the reader macro at compilation time, no?
2017-09-06T12:59:54Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-06T13:00:13Z ralt: and in this case, (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)) should fix it
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2017-09-06T13:01:28Z pjb: probabaly not.
2017-09-06T13:02:21Z _death: the times they are a nesting
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2017-09-06T13:03:08Z ralt: ah, no, #P is still read-time before compile-time, so it should be #.(setf ...)
2017-09-06T13:04:51Z ralt: well, #.(progn (setf ...) 1), so that the list isn't evaluated
2017-09-06T13:06:25Z ralt: it's kind of awkward that the standard was designed this way, no? that the translations have to be defined at read-time to be usable with #P""
2017-09-06T13:06:27Z pjb: ralt: how the source of the #P reader macro in ecl?  It should be something like:  (defun reader-dispatch-macro-pathname (stream arg sub-char) "Standard #P dispatch macro reader." (declare (ignore sub-char arg)) (parse-namestring (read stream t nil t)))
2017-09-06T13:06:27Z pjb:  
2017-09-06T13:06:53Z ralt: pjb: that's basically it, yes
2017-09-06T13:07:06Z ralt: (accounting for *read-suppress*, and in C)
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2017-09-06T13:07:29Z pjb: There should be no test for read-suppress  in #P.
2017-09-06T13:07:49Z pjb: Ah, perhaps yes.
2017-09-06T13:09:30Z ralt: and the problem is essentially that (parse-namestring) is defining a pathname as a logical one only if the translation exists
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2017-09-06T13:10:23Z pjb: Yes.  so sothing like: (defun reader-dispatch-macro-pathname (stream arg sub-char) "Standard #P dispatch macro reader." (declare (ignore sub-char arg)) (let ((namestring (read stream t nil t))) (if *read-suppress* nil (parse-namestring namestring))))
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2017-09-06T13:10:44Z pjb: ralt: this is not a problem, this is what should be done AFAIK.
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2017-09-06T13:11:53Z ralt: pjb: sorry, but I don't understand what the supposed usage of translations + #P"" is then
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2017-09-06T13:12:35Z ralt: if I understand correctly, you're essentially saying that one needs to define the translations at read-time for #P"" logical pathnames to work
2017-09-06T13:12:51Z pjb: not necessarily the translations, but you have to define the logical host.
2017-09-06T13:13:46Z pjb: Which is done with eg.:  (progn (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (logical-pathname-translations host) nil)) (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute) (load-logical-pathname-translations host)))
2017-09-06T13:14:30Z pjb: But you're right, this may explain why most implementation accept to read a logical pathname even if the host is not defined yet.
2017-09-06T13:14:37Z pjb: For convenience.
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2017-09-06T13:15:24Z ralt: it sucks that the spec can't answer whether parse-namestring is supposed to obey make-pathname's rules or not.
2017-09-06T13:15:29Z pjb: Notice that when you define the translations, if you use #P as in: (setf (logical-pathname-translations "H") '((#P"H:**;*.*" #P"/tmp/**/*.*")))
2017-09-06T13:15:35Z pjb: you will get an error since H is not defined yet.
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2017-09-06T13:16:41Z pjb: Hence my use of (and (ignore-errors (setf (logical-pathname-translations host) nil) t)  (setf (logical-pathname-translations host)  …))
2017-09-06T13:17:47Z pjb: it does: "If host is nil and thing is a syntactically valid logical pathname namestring containing an explicit host, then it is parsed as a logical pathname namestring."
2017-09-06T13:18:05Z pjb: it must be a valid logical pathname namestring with a host.
2017-09-06T13:18:49Z pjb: But: "* Otherwise, the parsing of thing is implementation-defined." so implementations are free to do what they do.  But because of that, it's not conforming to write code that falls in that case.
2017-09-06T13:19:18Z pjb: Therefore you have to define the host, because some implementations will signal an error, some will define a logical pathname with a host that doesn't exist, some may do something else!
2017-09-06T13:20:05Z pjb: From the little test I made, it looks like ecl reads, compiles, loads and executes correctly #P.  But don't write non-conforming code.
2017-09-06T13:21:04Z ralt: I don't understand how the eval-when (:compile-toplevel) can work
2017-09-06T13:21:29Z pjb: which one?
2017-09-06T13:21:48Z ralt: if you have e.g. (progn (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (logical-pathname-translations "FOO") nil)) #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ"), then the #P is read-first, then the eval-when is executed, no?
2017-09-06T13:22:21Z ralt: (at compile-time, that is)
2017-09-06T13:23:14Z Bike: yeah, you'd have to do it in different forms
2017-09-06T13:23:47Z ralt: the standard requires implementations to read+compile form by form?
2017-09-06T13:25:47Z ralt: I thought it was file by file
2017-09-06T13:26:26Z Bike: form by form, yes
2017-09-06T13:26:47Z jackdaniel: that's why there is notion of a toplevel-from in the spec
2017-09-06T13:27:15Z jackdaniel: but I can't find it with l1sp.org
2017-09-06T13:27:24Z ralt: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm ?
2017-09-06T13:27:58Z jackdaniel: yes, and this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_t.htm#top_level_form
2017-09-06T13:28:12Z pjb: ralt: of course, you have to separate the definition of the host from its use in reader macros!  You cannot put them in the same progn.
2017-09-06T13:28:46Z jackdaniel: hum,:  If the form is a progn form, each of its body forms is sequentially processed as a top level form in the same processing mode.
2017-09-06T13:29:12Z Bike: sure, but obviously it has to be read first
2017-09-06T13:29:21Z pjb: And this is why, when you need to put them in a single form such as in asdf, you have to use tricks using read-from-string or intern and funcall, etc.
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2017-09-06T13:33:04Z ralt: so, in ECL, apparently, the order is correct during the compilation. (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)) is evaluated first, then the #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ" is (parse-namestring)'d. At execute time, the (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)) is ignored, but the #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ" is (parse-namestring)'d again.
2017-09-06T13:33:15Z ralt: which is the bug. Read-time is occuring twice.
2017-09-06T13:33:44Z Bike: What? You mean, you compile-filed the lisp file, and then loaded the lisp file?
2017-09-06T13:34:22Z ralt: then I loaded the compiled file, yes
2017-09-06T13:34:51Z Bike: loading the compiled fasl is not the same as loading the lisp source file. the latter is :execute, the former is :load-toplevel
2017-09-06T13:35:06Z Bike: how can you tell that the pathname is read again?
2017-09-06T13:35:28Z ralt: I added a printf() in ECL source code where it runs (parse-namestring) when occuring a #P""
2017-09-06T13:35:52Z ralt: s/occuring/meeting/
2017-09-06T13:37:00Z ralt: hm. (eval-when (:execute)) isn't executed at all when executing the compiled file.
2017-09-06T13:37:10Z ralt: looks like another bug
2017-09-06T13:37:33Z Bike: i told you, :execute doesn't occur when you load a fasl
2017-09-06T13:37:35Z _death: what is "executing the compiled file"
2017-09-06T13:37:41Z Bike: :execute is when you load a source file
2017-09-06T13:37:59Z ralt: ecl --eval '(compile-file "foo.lisp" :system-p t)' --eval "(c:build-program \"foo\" :lisp-files '(\"foo.o\"))"
2017-09-06T13:38:02Z ralt: _death: ^
2017-09-06T13:38:09Z ralt: Bike: ah, sorry
2017-09-06T13:38:23Z ralt: _death: sorry, the "executing" part is just running "./foo"
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2017-09-06T13:42:35Z _death: I don't think this sense of the term correspond to eval-when's
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2017-09-06T14:12:08Z shrdlu68: It seems I was incredibly naive in writing cl-tls.
2017-09-06T14:12:24Z jackdaniel: how so?
2017-09-06T14:12:46Z shrdlu68: It does not seem to be needed.
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2017-09-06T14:14:21Z shrdlu68: And people have (perhaps well-placed) skepticism in adopting crypto libraries that are not widely used.
2017-09-06T14:15:13Z Shinmera: Wrapping bearssl in a CL lib would be very welcome in my opinion since cl+ssl and openssl are pretty terrible.
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2017-09-06T14:15:54Z Akash9: hello need a little help please
2017-09-06T14:16:19Z pjb gives a little help to Akash9, but no more.
2017-09-06T14:16:55Z shrdlu68: I should pick out what projects I work on in future more carefully.
2017-09-06T14:17:09Z pjb: Akash9: Good Morning Mumbai!
2017-09-06T14:17:22Z pjb: shrdlu68: you mean that nobody has used cl-tls yet?
2017-09-06T14:17:29Z pjb: shrdlu68: what about yourself?
2017-09-06T14:17:45Z Akash9: Define a Recursive LISP function which takes two arguments first, an atom, second, a list, returns a  list after removing first occurrence of that atom within the list.
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2017-09-06T14:18:08Z Akash9: i have tried hard but cannot make the program
2017-09-06T14:18:14Z Akash9: any suggestions please
2017-09-06T14:18:20Z pjb: Akash9: what's your base case?
2017-09-06T14:18:22Z shrdlu68: pjb: None, and I haven't used it yet.
2017-09-06T14:18:33Z pjb: shrdlu68: don't lose hope: use it!
2017-09-06T14:19:06Z jackdaniel: Akash9: please consider joining #clnoobs  for help
2017-09-06T14:19:23Z pjb: yes.
2017-09-06T14:19:26Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: if you think people are having difficulty loading openssl on the many operating systems out there, wait until they hear that they must compile bearssl themselves
2017-09-06T14:19:34Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: pure lisp tls implementation could benefit for instance mezzano
2017-09-06T14:19:46Z pjb: good example.
2017-09-06T14:20:06Z pjb: You could had https to mezzano browser.
2017-09-06T14:20:08Z Akash9: jackdaniel : Thanks​
2017-09-06T14:20:11Z jackdaniel: sure
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2017-09-06T14:21:00Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Well, since bearssl has practically no dependencies, it should be easy to deploy a precompiled version alongside.
2017-09-06T14:21:40Z jackdaniel: bear it with the application (snh snh)
2017-09-06T14:21:49Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: But why when there exist a native implementation?
2017-09-06T14:22:30Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: another scenario: ECL could use pure lisp tls on Android  by default
2017-09-06T14:22:44Z Shinmera: shrdlu68: because it is backed by experts and other industry teams that know what they're doing
2017-09-06T14:22:45Z jackdaniel: I think it is a worthy project
2017-09-06T14:23:43Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: the author of ironclad has acknowledged that it has not verified it for side-channel attacks
2017-09-06T14:24:04Z fe[nl]ix: I wouldn't trust it at all in any security context
2017-09-06T14:24:18Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: I am aware of that, but that can be fixed.
2017-09-06T14:24:19Z _death: would you trust openssl? :)
2017-09-06T14:24:36Z shrdlu68: But where does the motivation to fix it come from if no one will ever use it?
2017-09-06T14:24:42Z fe[nl]ix: _death: a lot more
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2017-09-06T14:25:10Z dlowe: It's an interesting ecological question.  A self-made implementation is actually safer from most automated attacks, which attack vulnerabilities in common libraries
2017-09-06T14:25:15Z shrdlu68: Someone will just write a NaCl binding and that would be used instead.
2017-09-06T14:25:22Z dlowe: but significantly less safe from a targeted attack
2017-09-06T14:25:58Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: many side-channel attacks are very near to being universal
2017-09-06T14:26:51Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: I think it would be used, like ironclad is widely used despite not beeing proven to be secure (and written by one person)
2017-09-06T14:26:58Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: there's at least one person who will use it if you make it
2017-09-06T14:27:02Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai :D
2017-09-06T14:27:41Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: I've already made it.
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2017-09-06T14:30:41Z _death: fe[nl]ix: I think there are multiple facets to be considered.. yes, I'm pretty sure there are crypto issues in cl-tls and its dependents.. on the other hand, it's written in a memory-safe language
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2017-09-06T14:31:58Z Shinmera: JavaScript is "memory safe" and yet people break out all the time.
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2017-09-06T14:32:03Z _death: still more, it covers much less surface for attack
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2017-09-06T14:32:52Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: have you verified Ironclad ? openssl's equivalent, libcrypto, is actually much higher quality than libssl
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2017-09-06T14:34:03Z _death: Shinmera: the JS implementations they break that way are usually written in C++, if I'm not mistaken.. also, I'm not sure it makes sense to compare a JavaScript interpreter to a TLS implementation
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2017-09-06T14:35:12Z Shinmera: It makes sense insofar that it means even in a memory safe language there's ways to break the sandbox.
2017-09-06T14:35:46Z Shinmera: Unless of course you have a bug-free implementation :)
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2017-09-06T14:37:13Z _death: Shinmera: I'm not claiming it solves all problems.. just that it's one more point to consider when thinking about trusting software
2017-09-06T14:37:24Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: I haven't (personally) verified ironclad.
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2017-09-06T14:40:17Z _death: one thing that could make sense in this context, btw, is to make sure everything is compiled with safety 3.. even if it means slower code
2017-09-06T14:40:26Z jackdaniel: I think "experts" argument is faulty - how to become an expert if not by writing things like this and improving them? by reading books and waiting for enlightenment? if that what makes an expert, no wonder security is in such sore state
2017-09-06T14:41:17Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: The experts argument isn't against writing it, but a reason why to prefer other solutions.
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2017-09-06T14:41:41Z _death: jackdaniel: I think it's not just that it's written by experts, but also audited by other experts.. and has suffered years in the battlefield.. although there may be a point, that when this kind of piece of software is used so extensively, experts may insert backdoors :)
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2017-09-06T14:42:59Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: given how many complaints I receive about libfixposix I don't think that most users would be able to compile bearssl
2017-09-06T14:43:03Z fe[nl]ix: not nowadays
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2017-09-06T14:44:09Z pjb: You mean that ruby python java and javascript have achieved the dumbing down of the programming population?
2017-09-06T14:44:33Z _death: pjb: I don't think it's faults of the languages, but of the good salaries :)
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2017-09-06T15:50:35Z dim: shrdlu68: cl-tls? can I use that to connect to MySQL and PostgreSQL servers? I would love to stop having to depend on openssl on the system in pgloader...
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2017-09-06T16:15:22Z shrdlu68: dim: You could be among the first to test it. It's not production-ready, but the biggest challenges is actually having people test it, report bugs, errors, bottlenecks, etc.
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2017-09-06T16:16:58Z Shinmera: A good test base should be querying a large variety of webservers, yeah?
2017-09-06T16:17:11Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: True.
2017-09-06T16:17:13Z _death: btw another alternative is to link bearssl into sbcl
2017-09-06T16:17:23Z Fade: shrdlu68: what is the project URL?
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2017-09-06T16:17:43Z shrdlu68: Fade: https://github.com/shrdlu68/cl-tls/
2017-09-06T16:17:51Z Fade: thx!
2017-09-06T16:18:48Z Fade: I also think this is a worthwhile project
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2017-09-06T16:19:13Z Fade: although this discussion makes me think that since we have quicklisp, we need something like freshmeat for lisp ecology.
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2017-09-06T16:19:35Z XachX: Yes
2017-09-06T16:21:14Z Shinmera: I'm excited to announce that Portacle 1.0 will probably be released within the week.
2017-09-06T16:21:46Z Fade: Shinmera: I was looking through the quicklisp dist update notes, and I have to say, you're a one man wrecking crew!
2017-09-06T16:22:00Z phoe: Shinmera: <3 !
2017-09-06T16:22:07Z Shinmera: Feels somewhat strange to finally have it be "release ready". I keep worrying there's something major I've overlooked somehow.
2017-09-06T16:22:28Z phoe: Shinmera: you can worry about that for 1.1.
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2017-09-06T16:22:53Z Shinmera: Fade: Oh, that's just from https://github.com/Shinmera?tab=overview&from=2017-08-16 when I removed the (in-package #:cl-user) from all my ASDs.
2017-09-06T16:23:07Z Fade chuckles
2017-09-06T16:23:18Z Fade: well, you also have a *lot* of systems. :)
2017-09-06T16:23:36Z Shinmera: I do, but I don't know if anyone actually uses them, heh.
2017-09-06T16:23:49Z Shinmera: phoe: Well, the problem with 1.0 is that it is somewhat of a promise that it should work well.
2017-09-06T16:25:20Z Shinmera: Having something advertised as "working well" only to find that it breaks badly is the kind of publicity I don't want to attract, haha
2017-09-06T16:25:22Z _death: Shinmera: you could always do what the big guys do and add a "b" suffix
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2017-09-06T16:27:27Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: fingers crossed, hope you'll write an announcement to show on planet.lisp.org
2017-09-06T16:27:39Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Will do.
2017-09-06T16:28:35Z Shinmera remembers when he put his first Lisp project, lQuery, on Quicklisp, and worried for weeks before and after about it not working for other people, or people getting mad at him for the shit software he wrote.
2017-09-06T16:30:44Z Fade: I think it's unreasonable for people to get 'mad' about you doing a bunch of work for them for free.
2017-09-06T16:31:07Z Shinmera: I never said that my fears were reasonable in any way, haha
2017-09-06T16:31:11Z Fade: if it's really bad work, there is the question of 'why publish this?' but also, patches are always welcome!
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2017-09-06T16:32:27Z Shinmera: Well, the most convincing argument is just that most people simply won't care either way, so it's unlikely you'll get to hear of it whether they like it or not.
2017-09-06T16:32:40Z Fade: in my experience, your systems are usually quite nicely arranged, though I admit that this is just a subjective metric.
2017-09-06T16:33:11Z Shinmera: Glad to hear.
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2017-09-06T16:38:14Z dlowe: If people are angry enough to care, you've managed to succeed in a way
2017-09-06T16:38:21Z dlowe: er, care enough to be angry
2017-09-06T16:38:43Z mfiano: Shinmera has a plethora of nice systems -- much like fukamachi, except the latter barely maintains existing software nor respond to issues. Also Shinmer's code quality is much better in my opinion. Thanks Shinmera! :)
2017-09-06T16:38:43Z dlowe: most things I write just go plunk into the Internet and I never hear about them again.
2017-09-06T16:38:59Z Shinmera: dlowe: That's the view of an advertiser, I guess.
2017-09-06T16:39:20Z dlowe: Shinmera: something that people care about can be improved.
2017-09-06T16:39:31Z dlowe: but not much will save a software project that no one wants
2017-09-06T16:39:55Z Fade: typically every software project has at least one user
2017-09-06T16:40:07Z Shinmera: The scenario I imagine is that someone tries it out, it doesn't work, and they get mad or disappointed that they wasted their time with it, then just give up and do something else.
2017-09-06T16:40:16Z Fade: software with zero users is just wasted time.
2017-09-06T16:40:28Z Shinmera: Fade: Eh. There's the learning aspect.
2017-09-06T16:40:39Z shrdlu68: Not necessarily ^
2017-09-06T16:40:52Z Fade: typically i'm the first client of whatever software occurs in my emacs buffers.
2017-09-06T16:41:22Z Fade: also, typically, this is more than enough reason for the software to exist.
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2017-09-06T16:42:59Z _death: Shinmera: that can happen to the best of software
2017-09-06T16:43:50Z Shinmera: _death: Well, yes. I've experienced it a lot myself, which is why I'm worried about it :)
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2017-09-06T16:47:42Z _death: maybe one day anger-oriented development will take off.. pissed off people sending no nonsense patches
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2017-09-06T16:52:23Z _death: I know I submitted a patch or two like that ;)
2017-09-06T16:52:29Z Shinmera: That sounds like what I do with my own projects half of the time. https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRReE5nPT0=
2017-09-06T16:52:47Z Shinmera: I'm sure the thing doesn't track a lot of the other swears I've used.
2017-09-06T16:53:46Z Shinmera: Hire me today!
2017-09-06T16:58:37Z _death: anyway, I tried running portacle yesterday and didn't have any obvious issues (archlinux)
2017-09-06T16:58:59Z Shinmera: Great!
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2017-09-06T16:59:26Z Shinmera: Though quite a bit has changed since the last release. Hopefully in the direction of more stability rather than less.
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2017-09-06T17:56:30Z phoe: does portacle finally include a sane editor like vim?
2017-09-06T17:56:36Z phoe ducks
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2017-09-06T17:59:00Z flip214: phoe: why are you ducking? that's an entirely good question, from my POV.     ;)
2017-09-06T17:59:12Z flip214: evil mode isn't included, sadly....
2017-09-06T17:59:26Z flip214: and following the instructions didn't work for me, the last 3 tries or so.
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2017-09-06T18:03:32Z Shinmera: "didn't work" in what way?
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2017-09-06T18:06:07Z flip214: can't remember right now. But I can re-try tomorrow, and tell you details, okay?
2017-09-06T18:06:34Z akkad: is clml still considered the best option in CL for stats ml?
2017-09-06T18:07:53Z Shinmera: flip214: Wait for the release first
2017-09-06T18:08:17Z flip214: Shinmera: Well, I'd have tested on emacs25 from Debian amd64
2017-09-06T18:08:39Z Shinmera: I don't really care about that :)
2017-09-06T18:09:25Z flip214: oh, okay.
2017-09-06T18:09:38Z flip214: how long until the release?
2017-09-06T18:09:53Z flip214: do you have some kind of beta, so that we might make it work for the release already?
2017-09-06T18:10:24Z Shinmera: Within the week.
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2017-09-06T18:12:16Z Shinmera: I don't have betas, but if the build wasn't broken right now you could make your own package
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2017-09-06T18:13:46Z Shinmera: I wanted to set up Travis at some point but the builds kept on breaking for unrelated reasons so I stop it
2017-09-06T18:13:50Z Shinmera: *stopped
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2017-09-06T18:41:06Z rpg: [Unimportant question:] Anyone know how to make SLIME not highlight all strings starting with check- ? I mean, I'm happy to have check-type highlighted, but I have humdrum functions with check- prefixed names and having them all in SCREAMING-BRIGHT-RED is a nuisance...
2017-09-06T18:42:20Z _death: looks like slime-additional-font-lock-keywords
2017-09-06T18:45:31Z rpg: _death: Thanks, looks right to me.
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2017-09-06T18:49:27Z rpg: _death: I see why it's happening for me -- it's happening inside case labels, which look like function calls to the regexp...
2017-09-06T18:56:54Z _death: yeah you get used to the false-lock.. first instance that comes to my mind is when I have a function taking a parameter called 'block'
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2017-09-06T19:06:18Z rpg: One more emacs question: if you have a close parenthesis stranded on a line by itself, does paredit (or something else) have a command to pull it up to the previous close-paren?
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2017-09-06T19:13:45Z _death: I don't use paredit.. if it's at the end of the form and point is at the right place I just C-c C-].. otherwise I use M-j which in my case is bound to a small delete-indentation-forward function that evaluates (delete-indentation t), but that leaves a space so I delete it.. don't care much for golf
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2017-09-06T19:15:08Z pjb: minion: memo for rpg: Just type ) on the previous parentheses, to have slime re-align and move parentheses.
2017-09-06T19:15:08Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-09-06T19:17:19Z _death: heh, guess you can tell I set up erc to hide joins/parts/quits.. overall a good thing still
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2017-09-06T19:28:32Z whoman: rpg, yes, emacs itself has:
2017-09-06T19:28:39Z whoman: M-^
2017-09-06T19:28:43Z whoman: one of my favorite commands
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2017-09-06T19:32:44Z rpg: Thanks! I see.  You put it on the line with the orphaned ) and that does the trick.
2017-09-06T19:32:44Z minion: rpg, memo from pjb: Just type ) on the previous parentheses, to have slime re-align and move parentheses.
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2017-09-06T19:33:16Z rpg: pjb's solution works, too.
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2017-09-06T19:40:17Z Prokopp: Hello everyone
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2017-09-06T19:49:35Z phoe: Hey Prok-- oh
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2017-09-06T22:14:44Z MetaYan: Shinmera: I've been using Portacle for quite some time now with CEPL on OS X 10.11.6, but I've had to build it on my own to get it to run.
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2017-09-06T22:18:12Z Shinmera: MetaYan: OS X 10.11 builds should be back with 1.0
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2017-09-06T22:18:41Z Shinmera: Can't do 10.10 unfortunately. Things start breaking in more recent versions if I build on that.
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2017-09-06T22:21:14Z MetaYan: Shinmera: The thing is, it's been running fine with CEPL for days now, and suddenly SBCL got stuck in an infinite loop by just entering an unmatched parenthesis in the REPL. Trying to debug and see where it's stuck. Any ideas how to go about it (that might be useful to you, before I restart it)?
2017-09-06T22:21:47Z Shinmera: Never seen that before, sorry.
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2017-09-06T22:23:38Z MetaYan: SBCL is stuck at 100% CPU usage and Emacs is showing "Missing closing delimiter: )".
2017-09-06T22:24:24Z lmohseni: that's a happy error message :)
2017-09-06T22:24:33Z MetaYan: Exactly.
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2017-09-06T22:24:52Z MetaYan: It sure made my eyes rise.
2017-09-06T22:25:05Z lmohseni: sorry if u mentioned this, but what version of sbcl are you running?
2017-09-06T22:25:15Z MetaYan: SBCL 1.3.21
2017-09-06T22:25:48Z MetaYan: SLIME 2.20
2017-09-06T22:26:28Z lmohseni: this might be totally unrelated, but i kept running into an infinite loop when tring to load quicklisp after pulling sbcl master a few days ago
2017-09-06T22:26:33Z MetaYan: I had a different keyboard layout, and accidentally entered a closing paren instead of opening. Bam.
2017-09-06T22:26:44Z lmohseni: i fixed it by nucking ~/.cache/common-lisp
2017-09-06T22:26:51Z lmohseni: or equiv.
2017-09-06T22:27:19Z MetaYan: Yes, I clear the cache every time I update quicklisp.
2017-09-06T22:27:50Z lmohseni: as of SBCL 1.3.21.65-7bf6995ed, seems fixed
2017-09-06T22:28:33Z lmohseni: also, i built my sbcl without --fancy
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2017-09-06T22:29:55Z MetaYan: What do you mean was fixed in 1.3.21.65?
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2017-09-06T22:30:36Z lmohseni: the infinite loop when trying to load ql went away
2017-09-06T22:30:55Z _krator44: what's --fancy?
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2017-09-06T22:31:29Z MetaYan: The thing is, I have it in the infinite loop right now, so if someone has an idea what could be useful to get some info from it, please holler.
2017-09-06T22:31:31Z lmohseni: ah, if you've ever cloned and built sbcl from scratch, you can enable/disable various features
2017-09-06T22:31:56Z lmohseni: most<lmohseni> that's a happy error message :)
2017-09-06T22:31:57Z lmohseni: <MetaYan> Exactly.						        [16:25]
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2017-09-06T22:31:57Z lmohseni: <MetaYan> It sure made my eyes rise.
2017-09-06T22:32:00Z lmohseni: <lmohseni> sorry if u mentioned this, but what version of sbcl are you
2017-09-06T22:32:03Z lmohseni: 	   running?
2017-09-06T22:32:06Z lmohseni: <MetaYan> SBCL 1.3.21
2017-09-06T22:32:10Z lmohseni: <MetaYan> SLIME 2.20						        [16:26]
2017-09-06T22:32:13Z lmohseni: <lmohseni> this might be totally unrelated, but i kept running into an
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2017-09-06T23:26:38Z MetaYan: Shinmera: I just noticed that it's actually portacle that's stuck in an infinite loop. Is it of any use to you?
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2017-09-07T01:45:04Z minion: MORE RECENT
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2017-09-07T03:35:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-07T04:17:16Z shrdlu68: Morning beach.
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2017-09-07T04:29:09Z akkad: getting error trying to load osicat on lispworks. this was working. The files are all present, so unable to determine cause of error https://gist.github.com/de4d73bade2062bade3cb565422def05
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2017-09-07T04:45:58Z bigdaddytank: Hello other Lispers. I was wondering if anyone has used/uses Gauche Scheme
2017-09-07T04:46:09Z akkad: yes.
2017-09-07T04:46:16Z akkad: see #scheme and we can chat there
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2017-09-07T05:13:32Z beach: bigdaddytank: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-09-07T05:14:11Z akkad: ®
2017-09-07T05:14:22Z shka_: ™
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2017-09-07T05:24:29Z shka_: *sigh* i really wish there was a good way to sandbox lisp code
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2017-09-07T05:26:04Z beach: There is.
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2017-09-07T05:26:09Z beach: Use first-class global environments.
2017-09-07T05:26:56Z shka_: beach: i know that SICL is awesome, but my software is supposed to be portable
2017-09-07T05:27:44Z shka_: so i am just sacrificing security for now
2017-09-07T05:28:07Z beach: Clasp is in the process of acquiring first-class global environments.  Maybe we should convince the maintainers of other Common Lisp implementations to do the same.
2017-09-07T05:28:21Z shka_: your manual can format your hard drive during compilation (yay!)
2017-09-07T05:30:02Z shka_: beach: amazingly i seem to stumble for use cases for global environments quite often
2017-09-07T05:30:58Z beach: I am not amazed.  I found several needs that would be met by first-class global environments, which is why I invented them.
2017-09-07T05:32:15Z shka_: I am. Because if idiot like me writes software that could use first class environments it is surprising that they are not common already
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2017-09-07T05:33:24Z beach: It's a common mistake to think that way.  Someone has to think of something first.  And before that happen, by definition, nobody has thought about it before.
2017-09-07T05:33:59Z shka_: right
2017-09-07T05:34:18Z beach: That mistake of yours is also why many people don't think they can come up with original ideas, because "obviously, if I can think of it, then someone must have done it before".  If you can avoid such thinking, you can actually come up with a lot of new stuff.
2017-09-07T05:35:02Z loke: There is also a large barrier between "thinking about it" and "doing soemthing about it". For all intents and purposes in this case, unless you did something about ti, it never happened. :-)
2017-09-07T05:35:10Z loke: Beach did something about it.
2017-09-07T05:35:19Z shka_: just do it
2017-09-07T05:35:26Z beach: loke: Indeed.
2017-09-07T05:35:41Z shka_: make first class global envs come true!
2017-09-07T05:36:25Z beach: Also, I am simplifying things a bit.  A person can be trained to "do something about it".  That's what training to be a researcher is about.
2017-09-07T05:37:37Z beach: Contrary to common belief, doing research is not about "talent" (there is strong evidence that there is no such thing as intrinsic "talent") but about hard work.
2017-09-07T05:38:25Z shka_: heh
2017-09-07T05:38:31Z shka_: reminds me of Bach
2017-09-07T05:39:17Z beach: So, many people avoid doing things because they think they are not "talented".  But, most people are capable of basically anything, given that the right amount of work is put into the effort.
2017-09-07T05:39:42Z beach: shka_: How so?
2017-09-07T05:39:46Z White_Flame: and the right amount of electrical shock incentive
2017-09-07T05:39:50Z shka_: beach: once asked what is the secret of his talent he modestly explained that he just works really hard
2017-09-07T05:40:34Z beach: shka_: I had not heard that before.  But I totally believe it.
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2017-09-07T05:40:49Z shka_: http://bookhaven.stanford.edu/2013/03/my-music-is-better-because-i-work-harder-bachs-st-matthew-passion/
2017-09-07T05:41:11Z wheelsucker: genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration - Edison.
2017-09-07T05:41:23Z beach: I recommend a book: "PEAK, Secrets from the New Science of Expertise" by Anders Ericsson.
2017-09-07T05:42:48Z beach: wheelsucker: Yes, the book I recommended is just more accumulated evidence.
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2017-09-07T05:49:05Z shka_: beach: btw, since you are around: did you benchmarked that new generic function dispatch algorithm implementation you invented?
2017-09-07T05:49:26Z beach: Only as a simulation.  It is in the paper.
2017-09-07T05:49:34Z shka_: right
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2017-09-07T05:56:20Z beach: So, for example, with SICL, I noticed that I was largely incapable of writing system code using only a subset of the language.  It was just too painful.  So I had to come up with a way to make the full language work from the start, so that I could write things like (defclass standard-class (class) ...).
2017-09-07T05:56:27Z beach: I also wanted to avoid having several code instances for the same purpose, to avoid maintenance problems.  These two requirements made it impossible to write a subset of an implementation in some other language and then gradually bootstrap.
2017-09-07T05:56:28Z beach: So I had to figure out how to write Common Lisp in Common Lisp, using a host implementation.  But then I ran into the problem of distinguishing between host code and target code.  To fix that problem, I needed first-class global environments.
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2017-09-07T06:01:30Z loke: beach: But if the host doesn't support FCGE's, is that a problem?
2017-09-07T06:01:38Z beach: No.
2017-09-07T06:02:10Z shka_: eh
2017-09-07T06:02:11Z beach: First-class global environments are defined by a protocol consisting of generic functions and classes that are supported by every conforming Common Lisp implementation.
2017-09-07T06:02:26Z shka_: if only sicl was actually something that you can run :/
2017-09-07T06:02:46Z beach: shka_: I am working on it.
2017-09-07T06:02:58Z shka_: yes, but you work on many things
2017-09-07T06:03:04Z shka_: at once
2017-09-07T06:03:12Z beach: shka_: Yes, I am sorry about that.
2017-09-07T06:03:37Z shka_: it is ok, i will just figure out how to clone you
2017-09-07T06:03:39Z pillton: There is no need to apologise.
2017-09-07T06:04:04Z beach: pillton: I wasn't quite serious about that apology.
2017-09-07T06:04:40Z shka_: i guess 20×20 cluster of beaches will be able to finish all your projects
2017-09-07T06:05:11Z beach: shka_: Like I said, there is nothing special about me, other than the work I put in.  Anyone can do it.
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2017-09-07T06:06:40Z beach: shka_: So what I mean to say is that, rather than wishing for clones of me, just roll up your sleeves and get to work.
2017-09-07T06:06:59Z shka_: yeah, yeah
2017-09-07T06:07:03Z shka_: i'm working
2017-09-07T06:07:12Z beach: Good.
2017-09-07T06:07:48Z pillton: shka_: It is better to encourage more people to work in common lisp. This would increase the probability of someone having the same problems as beach and is willing to commit to the problem.
2017-09-07T06:08:00Z shka_: but i just realized that my approach "write documents by writing lisp code" means "documents can also format your hard drive"
2017-09-07T06:08:19Z shka_: which SUCKS
2017-09-07T06:08:43Z loke: shka_: You need a security model that allows you to compartmentalise execution contexts.
2017-09-07T06:09:00Z beach: loke: Yes, that's how this discussion started.
2017-09-07T06:09:08Z beach: <shka_> *sigh* i really wish there was a good way to sandbox lisp code
2017-09-07T06:09:10Z loke: Oops. Sorry :-)
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2017-09-07T06:09:41Z loke: I started reading just below that :-)
2017-09-07T06:09:44Z shka_: but having full language that can be used to write is just so useful that I just don't want to let it go
2017-09-07T06:09:48Z beach: loke: Heh.
2017-09-07T06:10:57Z shka_: so for now it will end with software for those with brave hearts
2017-09-07T06:11:08Z shka_: or tiny brains
2017-09-07T06:11:13Z shka_: or both
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2017-09-07T06:14:27Z beach: shka_: There is nothing in the full Common Lisp language that allows a user to format the hard drive.
2017-09-07T06:14:27Z beach: shka_: The Common Lisp language definition doesn't even have a glossary entry for "hard drive".
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2017-09-07T06:14:44Z shka_: beach: that was a joke
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2017-09-07T06:15:56Z shka_: by format hard drive i meant any disastrous action that can be performed as accident or malicious act
2017-09-07T06:16:54Z jackdaniel: (labels ((foo () (1+ (foo))) (foo))
2017-09-07T06:17:32Z shka_: jackdaniel: that was random
2017-09-07T06:17:46Z jackdaniel: that was the most evil disastrous thing I could think of
2017-09-07T06:18:09Z jackdaniel: I'm a very gentle person as you see ;)
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2017-09-07T06:19:10Z shka_: you don't belong to this cruel and painful world my angel
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2017-09-07T06:20:48Z Zhivago: shka_: (%%maybe-evil-do%%)
2017-09-07T06:21:15Z shka_: "i am not a virus i am a dolphin"
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2017-09-07T06:26:41Z akkad: delphis, or womb fish?
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2017-09-07T06:30:20Z shka_: not sure where this is going
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2017-09-07T06:39:41Z beach: shka_: So, the idea with first-class global environments is that, while you can use any functions to implement some software, you can restrict the USERS of that software so that they can't do such disastrous things.
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2017-09-07T06:40:21Z shka_: beach: exactly what i need
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2017-09-07T07:02:38Z jackdaniel: I wonder if having first-class global environments could serve a purpose packages do
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2017-09-07T07:03:01Z ralt: what's "environment" in this context?
2017-09-07T07:03:38Z loke: ralt: All the information that normally would be "global" in CL.
2017-09-07T07:03:56Z loke: Like all the global variables, class definitions, etc.
2017-09-07T07:04:34Z loke: That said. They are usually bound to symbols, so just making the packages  belong to an environment goes a long way.
2017-09-07T07:04:47Z loke: I don't know exactly how beach did it.
2017-09-07T07:05:42Z loke: Note that a package can be looked up by name, which is bad, because you want to have two different piceses pieces of code to be able to do (FIND-PACKAGE "FOO") and get different results.
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2017-09-07T07:06:27Z Zhivago: Probably you don't want to operate at the package level, but at the symbol level.
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2017-09-07T07:06:49Z loke: Zhivago: Like I said, I haven't given it as much thought as Beach
2017-09-07T07:07:01Z Shinmera: Just read the paper :shrug: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
2017-09-07T07:07:01Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2017-09-07T07:07:38Z Zhivago: Or rather, at the binding level.
2017-09-07T07:08:13Z loke: Shinmera: that paper only addresses features of base CL though
2017-09-07T07:08:27Z loke: For example, does threads belong to an environment?
2017-09-07T07:09:55Z loke: Also, beach does talk specifically about the need to link a package to an environment.
2017-09-07T07:10:39Z loke: (or rather, replacing them with something that is. but semantics)
2017-09-07T07:10:46Z beach: loke: In SICL, symbols don't have slots for functions, values, etc.  They are part of the environment instead.
2017-09-07T07:10:59Z loke: beach: I see
2017-09-07T07:11:32Z loke: beach: So (symbol-function 'foo) would look up foo's function definition in the active environment? Rather than looking at the symbol itself.
2017-09-07T07:11:32Z loke: ?
2017-09-07T07:11:37Z beach: I have (defclass symbol (t) ((%name ...) (%package ...)) (:metaclass built-in-class))
2017-09-07T07:11:52Z beach: loke: Correct.
2017-09-07T07:12:03Z loke: I see. That's actually a much clearer way to handle things.
2017-09-07T07:12:17Z beach: I agree (of course) :)
2017-09-07T07:12:17Z loke: Thant would imply that :FOO is _always_ going to be the same iobject, regardless of environment?
2017-09-07T07:12:27Z beach: Correct.
2017-09-07T07:12:50Z loke: Now that I think about it... if it wasn't, things could be awefully painful :-)
2017-09-07T07:13:01Z beach: Yep. :)
2017-09-07T07:13:25Z loke: OK, I need to play with sicl
2017-09-07T07:13:37Z beach: That would not be easy.
2017-09-07T07:13:55Z loke: It's not compilable?
2017-09-07T07:14:07Z beach: Correct.  It is not.
2017-09-07T07:14:27Z beach: There are instructions to get a REPL, but it runs inside the host and it borrows a lot from that host.
2017-09-07T07:14:55Z loke: beach: Fair enough. But does it contain enough to be able to actually instantiate more than one environment?
2017-09-07T07:15:16Z beach: Yes, I do that in the bootstrapping procedure.
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2017-09-07T07:15:41Z loke: OK, I'll take a look later. :-)
2017-09-07T07:15:48Z beach: But nothing is laid out or documented for general consumption.
2017-09-07T07:16:15Z beach: So you will need some hand holding to make it work.
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2017-09-07T07:16:29Z loke: I'm not going to ask that of you. :-)
2017-09-07T07:16:37Z loke: Instead, I'll be happy waiting until it's easier.
2017-09-07T07:16:44Z beach: That's better.
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2017-09-07T07:19:16Z loke: qua
2017-09-07T07:19:18Z loke: Oops
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2017-09-07T07:20:51Z flip214: Shinmera: would you mind changing the first screenshot in "Using it" on https://portacle.github.io/?
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2017-09-07T07:21:12Z flip214: The font should be much bigger, ie. the window size should be reduced.
2017-09-07T07:21:34Z flip214: about a third of the left side window is empty anyway.
2017-09-07T07:21:45Z flip214: sorry, left side *buffer*
2017-09-07T07:21:56Z Shinmera: I don't feel it's very important that you can read what's actually in the frame, given that it's just for reference.
2017-09-07T07:22:34Z jackdaniel: It doesn't look good though (given it goes beyond margins and is unreadable) - imo
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2017-09-07T07:23:02Z Shinmera: The going beyond margins is intentional and looks good in my opinion.
2017-09-07T07:23:13Z jackdaniel: mhm
2017-09-07T07:23:27Z flip214: Shinmera: you can keep the image width bigger than the text column, that's fine - but the text _should_ be readable, IMO.
2017-09-07T07:23:33Z ralt: I like this effect too, but the font is definitely too small
2017-09-07T07:24:34Z flip214: same for the screenshot after "hit the ↵ key"
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2017-09-07T07:25:25Z Shinmera: That screenshot is at native resolution, so it should be exactly as big as it is when you actually use portacle.
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2017-09-07T07:25:48Z flip214: and if you could include the evil plugin, it would be great! (not enabled, just available, so that there's no download needed)
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2017-09-07T07:26:17Z flip214: Shinmera: yeah, and with modern hi-dpi displays it's actually too small ;/
2017-09-07T07:26:29Z Shinmera: you kids and your toys
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2017-09-07T07:27:00Z flip214: if only
2017-09-07T07:27:06Z jdz: Are you guys talking about the screenshot that is mostly blank space?
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2017-09-07T07:27:15Z flip214: jdz: that one, too.
2017-09-07T07:28:06Z ralt: Shinmera:  ah, I had a question about portacle. Do you think it would be feasible to have it load e.g. a ~/.portacle file at startup? The use case I had in mind was shipping portacle along with an application of mine, with some custom changes.
2017-09-07T07:28:15Z Shinmera: Anyway, the reason why the screenshot is the way it is, is because at one point Portacle automatically maximised itself. I felt it would be right to represent that.
2017-09-07T07:28:29Z ralt: just having it as a dependency rather than forking it would be nicer
2017-09-07T07:28:37Z ralt: s/forking/embedding/
2017-09-07T07:28:41Z Shinmera: ralt: What would load that? Emacs? SBCL?
2017-09-07T07:28:53Z ralt: Shinmera: emacs
2017-09-07T07:29:01Z Shinmera: ralt: Just use the user.el then
2017-09-07T07:29:03Z ralt: or, well, one file for each
2017-09-07T07:29:19Z ralt: ah, the normal emacs files are loaded as usual?
2017-09-07T07:29:22Z jdz: The one with PROGN looks readable for me on my 270 DPI 13.6" screen, but that's probably because the browser has doubled its size?
2017-09-07T07:29:23Z Shinmera: No
2017-09-07T07:30:01Z Shinmera: ralt: https://github.com/portacle/config/blob/master/help.txt#L337
2017-09-07T07:30:29Z ralt: ha
2017-09-07T07:30:31Z ralt: thanks
2017-09-07T07:30:40Z ralt: hadn't noticed this existed, sorry
2017-09-07T07:32:11Z Shinmera: I don't suppose emacs has hooks for hi-dpi monitors?
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2017-09-07T07:33:56Z jdz: I'm running emacs, which uses GTK 3, and I've had to add GDK_SCALE=0.5 to make menus appear where they're supposed to appear.
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2017-09-07T07:35:28Z Shinmera: Portacle is built with GTK2
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2017-09-07T07:37:05Z jdz: Nice resolution support on Linux still sucks.
2017-09-07T07:39:28Z Shinmera: It sucks in general cause a lot of applications and websites aren't optimised for it anyway.
2017-09-07T07:40:20Z jdz: I can deal with crappy looking websites (I've been exposed to GeoCities).
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2017-09-07T07:41:00Z Shinmera: If my browser wouldn't cache things I don't want it to even when I hard-refresh I could confirm that the screenshots on the website are now a bit more suitable
2017-09-07T07:41:20Z jdz: I've wanted >200dpi displays for like 20 years now.
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2017-09-07T07:41:54Z Shinmera: I've wanted a larger colour space than 32 bits for 10 years and I don't think it'll come within my lifetime.
2017-09-07T07:42:09Z ralt: jdz: for your pleasure http://code.divshot.com/geo-bootstrap/
2017-09-07T07:42:43Z jdz: ralt: oh yes, there's no place like home!
2017-09-07T07:43:01Z jdz: Although it's missing the "under construction" icon :/
2017-09-07T07:44:29Z jdz: Oh wait, it's there!
2017-09-07T07:44:43Z jackdaniel: ralt: fantastic
2017-09-07T07:46:10Z ralt: heh
2017-09-07T07:46:14Z jdz: Shinmera: the new "full-screen" screenshot is a lot better now (IMO).
2017-09-07T07:47:20Z ralt: it's a shame that <blink> isn't supported by browsers anymore
2017-09-07T07:47:56Z jdz: ralt: easily mitigated with DHTML!
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2017-09-07T07:50:30Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks a lot, that's better!
2017-09-07T07:51:02Z Shinmera: Also noticed that I forgot to undo the margin thingy on small widths.
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2017-09-07T08:45:08Z fourier: after latest update of quicklisp my test asdf based on prove failed to compil:  Component :PROVE-ASDF not found, required by NIL
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2017-09-07T08:50:10Z fourier: how to fix it? anyone else experienced this problem? compilers ccl and lispworks on windows
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2017-09-07T09:05:19Z fourier: ok it seems to be this issue: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/108
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2017-09-07T09:31:28Z hjudt: Shinmera: when using Clips, how is one expected to add data to javascript code. e.g. my ajax code needs the database name, and there is more than one database. currently i use <span id="dbname" lquery="...">dbname</span> and in the javascript code i read $(#dbname).text to generate the proper data payload for jquery.getJSON(). In other template languages i could probably reference this with {{dbname}}
2017-09-07T09:31:34Z hjudt: directly in the template.
2017-09-07T09:32:11Z Shinmera: Modern HTML says you should use data-foo attributes for that kind of stuff
2017-09-07T09:32:43Z hjudt: ok, that's probably better and I've already read up on it.
2017-09-07T09:33:04Z Shinmera: lquery has a shorthand data function for it, too
2017-09-07T09:33:31Z hjudt: second question: which default database does r-database draw in, as mentioned in the tutorial? i believe the docs should be a bit more specific about it?
2017-09-07T09:33:34Z Shinmera: as in, (data :foo "bla") => data-foo="bla"
2017-09-07T09:34:15Z hjudt: ah fine, that's great then. will it also properly escape the string if necessary (not necessary in my case though)?
2017-09-07T09:34:15Z Shinmera: What's r-database? Do you mean the database interface, or r-data-model?
2017-09-07T09:34:24Z Shinmera: hjudt: Of course
2017-09-07T09:34:34Z hjudt: sorry, yes, r-data-model. i will look up the page...
2017-09-07T09:35:16Z Shinmera: r-data-model depends on the database interface. When an interface is loaded, an implementation for it is loaded according to your configuration.
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2017-09-07T09:35:25Z hjudt: oh, it's on page 1 actually. i haven't used r-data-model yet, not sure i will need it... https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-tutorial/blob/master/Part%201.md
2017-09-07T09:35:47Z Shinmera: The default configuration that's set up contains the following: https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance/blob/master/default-config.lisp
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2017-09-07T09:37:27Z hjudt: i see. maybe if you could mention this on the tutorial page (or at the start of the tutorial) that would be helpful. i have not yet read about this default-config.lisp.
2017-09-07T09:38:49Z Shinmera: The configuration happens last.
2017-09-07T09:39:08Z Shinmera: Because it's not really part of the development of an application. You shouldn't have to care about what the implementation is.
2017-09-07T09:40:04Z hjudt: where can i find info about r-simple-model? there is nothing in github radiance or radiance-contrib?
2017-09-07T09:40:04Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-contribs/tree/master/r-data-model
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2017-09-07T09:40:26Z hjudt: is that a in-memory db?
2017-09-07T09:40:37Z Shinmera: I haven't gotten around to writing docs for all the contribs.
2017-09-07T09:40:44Z Shinmera: r-data-model is not a database at all.
2017-09-07T09:40:54Z Shinmera: It's just a wrapper around the database interface.
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2017-09-07T09:42:56Z hjudt: ah ok, i've got confused about r-simple-model and i-lambdalite... so LambdaLite is the backend.
2017-09-07T09:43:03Z Shinmera: The default implementation is i-lambdalite, which is in-memory but does persist, as is required by the interface specification.
2017-09-07T09:43:31Z Shinmera: ::look up radiance database
2017-09-07T09:43:31Z Colleen: 2.5 database https://github.com/shirakumo/radiance#25-database
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2017-09-07T09:47:27Z Shinmera: Hrm
2017-09-07T09:47:38Z Shinmera: actually, I don't think I mention the configuration of interface implementations in Part 7.
2017-09-07T09:47:48Z Shinmera: I'll fix that once I'm done with Portacle.
2017-09-07T09:48:27Z flip214: Shinmera: "done"? whenever is software "done"?
2017-09-07T09:48:47Z flip214: if you said "once I've done this release", then yeah.... but "done" sounds very optimistic ;)
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2017-09-07T09:49:30Z Shinmera: I said "once I'm done"
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2017-09-07T10:18:30Z shka: lambdalite is cute
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2017-09-07T10:19:18Z loke: shka: What's that?
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2017-09-07T10:19:40Z shka: loke: https://github.com/Wukix/LambdaLite
2017-09-07T10:20:37Z shka: quite a hack :-)
2017-09-07T10:23:38Z shka: i don't know why, but I really enjoy hacks like this
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2017-09-07T10:27:15Z loke: It's pretty cool
2017-09-07T10:27:26Z loke: Some support for indexes would be useful though :-)
2017-09-07T10:28:05Z Shinmera: I don't think indexes would be very useful for the tiny amounts of data that they want to support.
2017-09-07T10:29:26Z shka: it is good enough for multitude of use cases anyway
2017-09-07T10:30:06Z Shinmera: Having support for more serious cl-native data stores in Radiance would be nice, but I don't have the time... well, I don't have the will to do it. Let's put it that way.
2017-09-07T10:30:56Z shka: if person needs it, he can cook some postmodern support i guess
2017-09-07T10:31:08Z Shinmera: Radiance already has an implementation for that
2017-09-07T10:31:23Z Shinmera: I meant something that doesn't require an external DB
2017-09-07T10:31:29Z shka: ah, i see
2017-09-07T10:31:49Z shka: at this point it is whatever i guess
2017-09-07T10:32:14Z shka: once you have postmodern, you can do all kinds of usefull stuff with it
2017-09-07T10:32:37Z shka: (i may be biased, i like PG)
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2017-09-07T10:38:15Z jackdaniel: paul graham?
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2017-09-07T10:39:05Z antoszka: postgresql :)
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2017-09-07T10:59:11Z hjudt: Shinmera: it might be nice to be more explicit about these technologies in the tutorial part where you start using them. e.g., as a new user i'd like to know what will be done by that database implementation. i read the tutorial because usually you use the manual only to look up things (changes to defaults). so the tutorial could just mention that the default setting is to use an in-memory database and where
2017-09-07T10:59:17Z hjudt: to read up how to change that, and it would be fine.
2017-09-07T10:59:33Z hjudt: just my 2¢
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2017-09-07T11:00:57Z hjudt: apart from that, i like the tutorial so far and find it quite helpful. i'm not through with it though.
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2017-09-07T11:48:13Z Shinmera: hjudt: My rationale for not talking about it in the tutorial was that I didn't want to go on a lengthy tangent to explain how things worked that might potentially confuse people, when it's not really necessary to know about all of this straight ahead.
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2017-09-07T11:50:09Z Shinmera: I'll read the part again and see what I can do to address your concerns, though
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2017-09-07T12:58:48Z Shinmera: Any OS X users here? Do you use the standard Paredit keybindings to slurp/barf etc (As in, C-{, C-}, C-(, C-) ) or do you use something else that you find to be more convenient or sensible?
2017-09-07T12:59:29Z Shinmera: Cause I don't really like the idea of those bindings myself, since on a lot of keyboards {}() require shift or altgr in addition.
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2017-09-07T12:59:42Z Shinmera: *key layouts
2017-09-07T13:00:25Z Shinmera: Well, on OS X it requires alt and shift respectively, but anyway.
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2017-09-07T13:02:18Z Shinmera: Typically I use C-left, C-right, etc but those are (by default) used by OS X itself, I believe.
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2017-09-07T13:26:34Z pjb: Shinmera: you should just bind those commands to the key chords YOU find convenient!
2017-09-07T13:27:34Z Shinmera: pjb: Portacle is intended to come with convenient default sets. This is why I'm asking for other opinions.
2017-09-07T13:27:52Z Shinmera: What I think about it, given that I don't use OS X, is of little relevance to that.
2017-09-07T13:28:41Z pjb: Well, I wouldn't know, I've always used a us-QWERTY keyboard layout.
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2017-09-07T13:29:01Z Shinmera: And for that the defaults are fine?
2017-09-07T13:29:10Z pjb: And since 1981, that means iop[]\  and IOP{}|
2017-09-07T13:29:15Z pjb: yes.
2017-09-07T13:29:19Z Shinmera: Ok, good.
2017-09-07T13:30:05Z pjb: You may want to add bindings for other variants, such as es-QWERTY, AZERTY, QWERTZ, etc.
2017-09-07T13:31:18Z pjb: Shinmera: you may also consider people using lispy keyboard layout, where () is exchanged with [].
2017-09-07T13:31:25Z pjb: Easier for them. :-0
2017-09-07T13:31:27Z pjb: :-)
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2017-09-07T13:34:04Z Shinmera: I think I'll just make a note of the C-{ etc bindings in the help file, for those of which the C-<arrows> don't work.
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2017-09-07T13:42:44Z pjb: Furthermore, these bindings depend on the terminal you're using.  You need different bindings in an iso terminal than in a X window or a ns window…
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2017-09-07T14:15:17Z ralt: pjb: hello, could you double-check what I said in there? https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/404#note_39516135
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2017-09-07T14:33:07Z pjb: ralt: note: since you have only literals in the logical pathname translations, you could use '(("BAR;*.*" #P"/foo/*.*"))
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2017-09-07T14:33:47Z ralt: true
2017-09-07T14:34:07Z ralt: just used (list) out of habit given that I wrote many examples the past few days
2017-09-07T14:35:06Z pjb: The first file should work in all cases!
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2017-09-07T14:36:32Z ralt: So (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (print "foo")) should be executed by the compiled file, you mean?
2017-09-07T14:36:34Z pjb: well, no.
2017-09-07T14:37:04Z pjb: Yes, but you added a translate-logical-pathname at run-time.
2017-09-07T14:37:14Z pjb: (it would be implicit in any file operation anyways).
2017-09-07T14:37:37Z pjb: At run-time, you need to redefine the logical host, as such at run-time.
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2017-09-07T14:38:32Z ralt: oh
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2017-09-07T14:38:48Z pjb: If you don't need the path at compilation time (ie. if you're not including files, or writing a build system), then you only need to define the logical host; it can  have no translations.
2017-09-07T14:39:09Z pjb: But at load-time/run-time  (:load-toplevel :execute), you need to define the translations.
2017-09-07T14:39:50Z pjb: It's simplier to think about these questions if you assume that you are compiling on one machine, and loading/running on the customer's machine, 10,000 km away.
2017-09-07T14:39:52Z ralt: you mean (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (logical-pathname-translation "FOO") nil)) (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute) (setf (logical-pathname-translations "FOO") '((...)))) (format t "~A~%" (translate-logical-pathname #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ"))
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2017-09-07T14:40:00Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-07T14:40:01Z ralt: let me try that
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2017-09-07T14:40:37Z pjb: And with a good alternative, for the user (or at least the installer script), to use (load-logical-pathname-translations "FOO")
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2017-09-07T14:41:42Z pjb: Remember that in the example I shown you (builder, loghost, generate-application), it's a build system.  So here we define and use the path in the same :execute situation. (those files are not explicitely compiled, they're loaded).
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2017-09-07T14:42:21Z pjb: Furthermore, you have to consider that you may have a :load-toplevel environment different from the :execute environment, when  you have a save-image in the middle,
2017-09-07T14:42:59Z ralt: only :execute is run when restoring a dumped image, right?
2017-09-07T14:43:10Z pjb: This means that the translations you define at :load-toplevel (which may be done on a different computer than the compilation, therefore that may have to be different), will also be different from the translations at :execute which are defined and used by each different user.
2017-09-07T14:43:24Z pjb: ralt: no, :execute is only done when loading the source file with load.
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2017-09-07T14:43:34Z ralt: oh
2017-09-07T14:43:37Z pjb: when the image is restored, it's implementation specific how it's done.
2017-09-07T14:44:00Z pjb: usually there's a "toplevel" or "main" function specified to the save image function, that is called, and you have to do your initializations there.
2017-09-07T14:44:49Z pjb: A lot of initializations are done invisibly by the implementation, restoring the image.  But the point here is that you don't want to inherit the developer's environment, you want to initialize a user environment!
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2017-09-07T14:45:42Z pjb: ralt: but basically, what you would do at :execute, you would do also when restoring the image (application initialization).
2017-09-07T14:45:53Z pjb: bbl (1 hour)
2017-09-07T14:46:04Z oleo: saving an image that requires a compile not ?
2017-09-07T14:46:21Z pjb: not necessarily: you can load sources and save the image.
2017-09-07T14:46:31Z pjb: You may have an interpreter or an implicit compiler…
2017-09-07T14:46:38Z oleo: ya sbcl has one
2017-09-07T14:46:50Z oleo: unless you set interpret-mode as default.....
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2017-09-07T14:47:52Z oleo: what i found is no matter what i did, either with compile-toplevel, load-toplevel or :execute, my muffle-warnings declaration took only effect after when i saved an image with it....
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2017-09-07T14:48:58Z oleo: otherwise on toplevel it was like the first start would be always always still contain warnings....only when i loaded a file twice the effect was ok
2017-09-07T14:49:23Z oleo: i thought eval was evaluating twice!
2017-09-07T14:49:51Z oleo: so eval-when does not eval twice ?
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2017-09-07T14:53:52Z ralt: pjb: so, that doesn't work... at compile time, the pathname is fine, but when running the executable, read-time for #P"" triggers before even (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute)), so it's created as a non-logical pathname
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2017-09-07T14:55:09Z ralt: (load time only, actually)
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2017-09-07T14:58:55Z ralt: ... which is the original issue.
2017-09-07T14:59:22Z ralt: in a compiled file, read-time is supposed to happen before (eval-when (:load-toplevel)), right?
2017-09-07T15:00:44Z _death: in a compiled file forms don't need to be read
2017-09-07T15:01:31Z ralt: yeah, the issue is that read-time occurs twice in ECL model
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2017-09-07T15:03:36Z Bike: i'm kind of confused about that. are you sure that it's actually being READ twice? or does it just look up logical pathnames twice or something.
2017-09-07T15:03:58Z Bike: i mean i thought you compiled this all the way down to an object file.
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2017-09-07T15:12:26Z ralt: Bike: I added a printf() there: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/src/c/read.d#L1364 (ctrl+f "sharp_P_reader"), so yes, I'm pretty sure it's read twice.
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2017-09-07T15:16:53Z Bike: that's freakin bizarre, then
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2017-09-07T15:18:04Z Bike: and to answer your question, yes, the compiler is run before the file is loaded, and the compiler does all the reading. except this time apparently.
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2017-09-07T15:20:10Z ralt: Bike:  it's more like restoring an image, it's booting up from scratch, except it skips the compilation part
2017-09-07T15:20:12Z ralt: somehow
2017-09-07T15:20:19Z ralt: my understanding of this bootstrap process is fuzzy
2017-09-07T15:21:27Z _death: it may be ok for it to do that, under the "as-if" rule
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2017-09-07T15:26:45Z _death: I think it's just wrongheaded to try to work around your problem using eval-when.. the solution is to use two files
2017-09-07T15:27:32Z _death: either that or set up the translations at read-time as well
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2017-09-07T15:35:59Z Bike: restoring an image still doesn't seem like something that would read
2017-09-07T15:37:21Z _death: well, one lazy way of externalizing objects is to print them as #.(foo)
2017-09-07T15:37:43Z _death: so #P... may also make sense
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2017-09-07T15:41:16Z ralt: _death: using 2 files doesn't change anything
2017-09-07T15:41:40Z ralt: _death: using #.() works, but it means you can't use it with runtime values
2017-09-07T15:41:44Z ralt: which sucks
2017-09-07T15:41:58Z ralt: (right now, I'm just using plain strings instead of #P"")
2017-09-07T15:42:50Z pjb: #P"FOO:BAR;BAZ" is a logical pathname. This is a literal.  It can be (and should be!) compiled in.  There's absolutely no reason why it should be read again (ie. why parse-namestring has to be evaluated again) at load time.
2017-09-07T15:43:35Z pjb: Also, the only condition for the _creation_ of a logical pathname is that the logical host exists.  There is no need for an actual logical pathname translation matching the logical path.
2017-09-07T15:44:12Z pjb: The translation is only needed when you use file operations (or explicitely call translate-logical-pathname or translate-pathname).
2017-09-07T15:44:19Z pjb: (or truename).
2017-09-07T15:44:46Z pjb: that #.() works and #P"" doesn't demonstrates the bug.
2017-09-07T15:45:18Z pjb: ralt: the patch is to use your own reader macro (I provided the source yesterday).
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2017-09-07T15:46:54Z ralt: pjb: sorry, which patch?
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2017-09-07T15:50:36Z pjb: ralt: (defun reader-dispatch-macro-pathname (stream arg sub-char) "Standard #P dispatch macro reader." (declare (ignore sub-char arg)) (let ((namestring (read stream t nil t))) (if *read-suppress* nil (parse-namestring namestring))))
2017-09-07T15:50:52Z ralt: pjb: ah, sorry
2017-09-07T15:50:56Z ralt: pjb: ECL already does that
2017-09-07T15:51:05Z pjb: and  of course: (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\P 'reader-dispatch-macro-pathname)
2017-09-07T15:51:35Z pjb: Try it.
2017-09-07T15:51:52Z pjb: If it doesn't work, then you may try to add a make-load-form method to pathname.
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2017-09-07T16:00:25Z _death: ralt: why do you say that two files don't work?
2017-09-07T16:00:53Z pjb: because of the bug.
2017-09-07T16:01:06Z _death: seems to work here
2017-09-07T16:01:10Z _death: ecl 16.1.3
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2017-09-07T16:03:08Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-09-07T16:05:22Z whoman: yes
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2017-09-07T16:05:50Z _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355257
2017-09-07T16:07:35Z whoman: its working?
2017-09-07T16:08:49Z Shinmera: Hoorah, hoorah! Portacle 1.0 is here! https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/356
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2017-09-07T16:10:13Z _death: Shinmera: congratulations
2017-09-07T16:11:14Z whoman: sick with it!
2017-09-07T16:12:26Z Shinmera: _death: Thank you
2017-09-07T16:12:50Z Shinmera goes to play some Splatoon 2 to celebrate
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2017-09-07T16:25:57Z ralt: _death: ... uh. Happy to be proved wrong. I'll have to figure out why asdf:make-build doesn't have the same behavior then...
2017-09-07T16:26:17Z jasom: Shinmera: huzzah! I've seen lots of "I don't want to use portacle because of the scary warning" from newbies on reddit and irc.
2017-09-07T16:26:19Z MetaYan: Shinmera: Thank you! A very good way of spreading Lisp into the world.
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2017-09-07T16:27:09Z Shinmera: jasom: Well, the warning was there for a reason. I didn't want to unnecessarily disappoint people. A negative first impression is pretty bad.
2017-09-07T16:27:10Z jasom: Shinmera: how did you end up handling shared libraries on linux; I was building some portable stuff myself and I discovered that RPATH can be made relative to the path of the executable which makes some things much easier
2017-09-07T16:27:35Z Shinmera: jasom: I wrote about that in depth here https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/350
2017-09-07T16:27:42Z jasom: Shinmera: not saying the warning was bad, but saying that removing it was a necessary step to helping people onboard with it
2017-09-07T16:27:49Z Shinmera: jasom: Of course.
2017-09-07T16:28:51Z Shinmera: Someone else on twitter suggested RPATH to me as well some time back. Making this work however would require binary rewriting with patchelf, and I don't currently have the desire to investigate that angle.
2017-09-07T16:29:11Z jasom: Shinmera: it might have been me actually since it's how I do it
2017-09-07T16:29:16Z Shinmera: My approach is horrible and convoluted, but it seems to work.
2017-09-07T16:29:33Z Shinmera: Ah. I don't have a good memory for names, sorry.
2017-09-07T16:29:39Z jasom: so you're using ld-wrap.so
2017-09-07T16:29:55Z jasom: Shinmera: no my twitter handle is something different; probably Aidenn0 (I don't use twitter much)
2017-09-07T16:29:57Z pjb: ralt: well, it looks like in ecl build-program working on .o files produces an executable that is not a saved image, but instead a fasl file.  Ie. with ecl, load-time occurs when you execute the binary!
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2017-09-07T16:30:06Z Shinmera: jasom: Yes. https://github.com/portacle/launcher/blob/master/src/ld-wrap.c
2017-09-07T16:31:02Z beach: Shinmera: Congratulations to 1.0!
2017-09-07T16:31:12Z Shinmera: beach: Thank you!
2017-09-07T16:31:13Z jasom: Shinmera: I remember reading that article but didn't realize that the last paragraph was your final linux solution
2017-09-07T16:31:33Z jasom: I suppose I can stop updating lispsticks now :)
2017-09-07T16:32:08Z Shinmera: I suppose so, yes.
2017-09-07T16:32:55Z Shinmera: I wish I could stop maintaining some things (glaring at qt-libs).
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2017-09-07T16:33:01Z jasom: lol
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2017-09-07T16:35:45Z Shinmera: Some of the stuff in the article is actually out of date now. Just yesterday I discovered that git has an environment variable for the CURL cainfo that isn't documented. This allows me to get rid of the weird windows config file kludge.
2017-09-07T16:36:10Z Shinmera: Thankfully too, cause I need to do the same thing on Linux, where the path trickery doesn't work.
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2017-09-07T16:36:11Z pjb: ralt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355259
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2017-09-07T17:06:56Z shka_: beach: regarding global envs
2017-09-07T17:07:40Z shka_: so essentially what you did is: turn package-symbol into package contains symbols, env maps symbols to other objects
2017-09-07T17:08:05Z shka_: from two part system into three part system
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2017-09-07T17:34:19Z ralt: pjb: yes, we figured that out, the problem is that read time occurs twice
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2017-09-07T17:53:43Z beach: shka_: Almost right.
2017-09-07T17:54:20Z beach: shka_: A package still contains symbols, and a symbol still have an optional package.
2017-09-07T17:55:03Z beach: But the mapping from symbols to other objects such as functions, as you point out, is no longer direct, but indirect through the environment.
2017-09-07T17:55:30Z jasom: beach: and the mapping from strings to packages is also through the environment?
2017-09-07T17:55:47Z beach: Yes, I think it will be.
2017-09-07T17:56:09Z beach: So it will be analogous to FIND-CLASS where there are two independent mappings.
2017-09-07T17:56:25Z beach: FIND-CLASS and CLASS-NAME may use different names.
2017-09-07T17:56:31Z beach: I am thinking packages will be the same.
2017-09-07T17:56:35Z jasom is trying to think of what things in lisp are named solely by strings; packages are, and symbols within a package are.  ASDF systems are too, but that's not part of the standard.
2017-09-07T17:57:15Z jasom won't go on his "why aren't packages named by symbols" rant
2017-09-07T17:57:49Z phoe: if symbols name packages, what package are these symbols in?
2017-09-07T17:58:27Z Bike: another package. hierarchy, see
2017-09-07T17:58:36Z jasom: phoe: no time to talk now, but they are resolved in *package* just like any other symbol when read
2017-09-07T17:58:41Z Bike: and at some point you have a nameless package which is like keyword.
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2017-09-07T17:58:53Z dlowe: there are uninterned symbols
2017-09-07T17:59:01Z dlowe: you just use one of those for the top-level package names
2017-09-07T17:59:06Z jasom: phoe: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader/blob/master/spm-example.lisp
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2017-09-07T17:59:26Z jasom: dlowe: thats right, uninterned symbols would let you have anonymous packages which you can't have right now.  every package must have a name in the global nmespace
2017-09-07T17:59:53Z jasom: phoe: if you want to talk more, I'm back in 90 minutes
2017-09-07T18:00:50Z dlowe: jasom: packages named by uninterned symbols would *be* the global namespace.
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2017-09-07T18:03:01Z White_Flame: yeah, I think that's along the ideas I had as well, of a graph of packages instead of just a flat global package list
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2017-09-07T18:07:38Z phoe: jasom: I see. Interesting.
2017-09-07T18:08:53Z MetaYan: phoe: I noticed in irc-log that you were offering me a tour just after my irc client had completely flipped out some days ago. I was not trying to be rude.
2017-09-07T18:08:59Z _death: doesn't really make sense to me..
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2017-09-07T18:25:45Z _death: dlowe: symbols only exist in a process, an if they're uninterned you can't designate them directly in source
2017-09-07T18:26:15Z dlowe: #:foo
2017-09-07T18:26:32Z _death: so, which package does this designate?
2017-09-07T18:26:36Z antoszka: none
2017-09-07T18:26:46Z antoszka: #:foo is uninterned
2017-09-07T18:27:31Z dlowe: or rather, #:foo creates an uninterned symbol by the reader
2017-09-07T18:27:33Z _death: dlowe: if I have two packages named by different uninterned symbols with the name "FOO"..
2017-09-07T18:28:10Z dlowe: actually.. actually if you made KEYWORD the root package, all sorts of nice things come out
2017-09-07T18:28:27Z dlowe: because then you could make uninterned symbols "mean" an anonymous package
2017-09-07T18:28:27Z _death: dlowe: this is what spm-reader does, if I understand it correctly..
2017-09-07T18:28:38Z dlowe didn't actually look at spm-reader
2017-09-07T18:31:58Z _death: also I'm not sure symbols-as-package-names would be an improvement.. for example they'd make package designators more difficult
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2017-09-07T18:34:04Z Bike: i don't think so. it would eliminate strings as package designators, but that's not that common. you'd still have symbols as package designators, they just wouldn't be keywords so often.
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2017-09-07T18:36:07Z _death: Bike: as I typed RET I realized that I meant something a bit different..
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2017-09-07T18:37:35Z dlowe: I disagree.  Strings are package designators are quite common for use when the package is not loaded at read-time
2017-09-07T18:37:43Z dlowe: which is kind of a problem with the whole setup
2017-09-07T18:38:52Z dlowe: what happens when you need to reference :foo:bar:baz before :foo:bar is loaded?  I guess you can put the resolution rules in the package designator space.
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2017-09-07T18:40:14Z Bike: you could write find-package explicitly, or yeah extend it so that strings are read
2017-09-07T18:41:22Z _death: so you resort to global names
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2017-09-07T18:50:54Z _death: currently packages are named by strings and the identity of these strings doesn't matter, so the reader can do with operating at the level of characters, which is what appears in the source file, and so does the user who writes the source file.. once you expect package names to be identity-based, it looks like it'd mean trouble
2017-09-07T18:52:53Z _death: referring to symbols already demands context, unless they're fully qualified with the package name.. but if the name is a symbol as well, what then?
2017-09-07T18:54:34Z _death: so you resort a special way to designate this root package, which makes it easy to refer to the packages in it
2017-09-07T18:54:46Z _death: (the packages named by symbols in it)
2017-09-07T18:55:35Z Bike: i mean you just restated the goal. package names dependent on context
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2017-09-07T18:55:54Z _death: so packages not named by symbols in it are second-class (or rather, third-class :).. they are more difficult to refer to.. this indeed creates a hierarchy of packages, but maybe not in the way intended
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2017-09-07T18:59:07Z _death: Bike: yes, from the spm-reader's example, that's what I think the goal is.. but the goal does not necessitate symbols as package names, so are there any other goals making this worthwhile
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2017-09-07T19:11:29Z _death: we already have package-local nicknames.. there are existing hierarchical package solutions that still use strings.. I suppose it makes anonymous packages natural, but it still seems an overkill for that
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2017-09-07T19:29:05Z White_Flame: actually, I think you could reuse uninterned symbols via #=
2017-09-07T19:29:10Z White_Flame: in source code
2017-09-07T19:29:16Z _death: (also, they're not really anonymous packages... but they achieve what we usually want when we think "anonymous packages")
2017-09-07T19:29:31Z _death: White_Flame: only within the same form
2017-09-07T19:29:34Z White_Flame: however, if you were to reload the source, it'd all be different :)
2017-09-07T19:30:06Z White_Flame: _death: sure, just use a toplevel progn or whatever
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2017-09-07T19:30:44Z _death: and what about other files
2017-09-07T19:32:23Z White_Flame: (setf *nobody-else-use-this* #1#) , other file #.*nobody-else-use-this*  ;)
2017-09-07T19:32:46Z White_Flame: (setf cl-user::*nobody-else-use-this* #1#) , other file #.cl-user::*nobody-else-use-this* ;)
2017-09-07T19:33:07Z White_Flame: obviously, I do not condone any of this :)
2017-09-07T19:33:10Z _death: by the way, old lisps didn't have strings
2017-09-07T19:33:24Z dlowe: or integers
2017-09-07T19:33:44Z _death: maybe they had obarray hacks that used symbols as names
2017-09-07T19:33:55Z dlowe: we should be grateful we do not hack in such benighted times.
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2017-09-07T19:34:25Z White_Flame: there was some split function for 'ABC -> (A B C) that was quite old
2017-09-07T19:34:43Z White_Flame: as well as the inverse
2017-09-07T19:34:44Z _death: dlowe: do you mean integers, or just the octal-by-default?
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2017-09-07T19:35:15Z _death: White_Flame: exploden
2017-09-07T19:36:58Z dlowe: I mean integers.
2017-09-07T19:37:47Z _death: dlowe: so they used peano style tricks? :)
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2017-09-07T19:38:17Z dlowe: they used number-shaped symbols
2017-09-07T19:38:34Z dlowe: trying to find the article that I ran across this
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2017-09-07T19:39:03Z _death: ----- ;; horizontal one
2017-09-07T19:39:24Z dlowe: https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2017-09-04-lisp-numbers/
2017-09-07T19:39:51Z dlowe: it's a fun read
2017-09-07T19:39:58Z _death: eh, it's from 3 days ago
2017-09-07T19:40:35Z _death: I thought "Snellman's blog? I don't remember that entry"
2017-09-07T19:42:08Z shrdlu68: "As far as I know, the source code hasn't been preserved"--very unfortunate.
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2017-09-07T19:53:14Z jasom: dlowe: why would you refer to :foo:bar:baz before :foo:bar is loaded?  In the rare event that you have to do that, then you use INTERN just like you do right now when the package you need doesn't exist at read time
2017-09-07T19:54:39Z dlowe: jasom: I've done it in asd files and also where lisp implementations will error on a non-existent package even when using #+/-
2017-09-07T19:54:42Z jasom: dlowe: most externally referenced packages would still have a global name, because that's useful.  However you can now do something like import :my-super-awseome-library as msal and refer to its symbols as msal:foo and another package can import :my-string-arithmetic-library as msal and do msal:bar with no issue
2017-09-07T19:55:19Z dlowe: jasom: yes, package local nicknames are quite cool, and that's wasn't the context of the discussion at the time
2017-09-07T19:55:20Z jasom: dlowe: lisp implementations aren't supposed to intern anything in a #- I thought
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2017-09-07T19:56:02Z jasom: dlowe: and then internal only packages it should be a non-issue for; just have foo depend on foo/bar but now you call it :foo:bar
2017-09-07T19:58:50Z jasom: _death: spm-reader was just a demonstration that at least two useful non-standard things are solved merely by having package names as keywords.
2017-09-07T19:59:18Z jasom: _death: It's elegant at the implementation level, but is not necessarily superior from an ergonomics standpoint from impelementing those features in other ways
2017-09-07T20:00:35Z jasom: _death: also package name collisions are an issue with nicknames as-in-the-standard, and lisp's historic way of resolving name collisions is to use symbols as names for things.
2017-09-07T20:02:20Z jasom: (intern "BAZ" (intern "BAR" :foo))  <-- :foo:bar:baz before :foo:bar is loaded.  This is not worse than calling the function foo:bar before foo is loaded, and I still maintain should be a rarity.
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2017-09-07T20:13:46Z _death: so intern creates packages?
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2017-09-07T20:20:08Z _death: jasom: I think the idea is interesting, but there's not enough experience with it to determine whether it's a step forward
2017-09-07T20:21:38Z akkad looks for fare
2017-09-07T20:23:05Z _death: jasom: also, maybe you're aware, but it seems to have been discussed in the cl-su-ai
2017-09-07T20:37:53Z _death: this led me to arrive at a Fahlman's post where he says: I propose that henceforth all silly lisp code be interned in a package
2017-09-07T20:37:53Z _death: named "(-".  Symbols in this package would print as \(-:foo.
2017-09-07T20:38:17Z _death: I then recalled that Fahlman is the guy who invented the smiley
2017-09-07T20:42:25Z fe[nl]ix: (\(-:make-\:\) '\(-:ny)
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2017-09-07T20:52:53Z _death: imagine if Kernighan invented the smiley.. it'd be :-}
2017-09-07T20:53:50Z knusbaum: ha!
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2017-09-07T21:03:14Z jasom: _death: intern doesn't create packages, but it won't be evaluated until run-time, at which (hopefully) the package exists
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2017-09-07T21:07:22Z jasom: cl-su-ai?
2017-09-07T21:07:31Z _death: jasom: http://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/
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2017-09-07T21:08:15Z _death: I munged it to a single file you can read using gnus @ https://adeht.org/dump/cl-su-ai.7z
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2017-09-07T21:12:00Z jasom: _death: neat to see others thought of it; it's not surprising (it was the obvious way of adding package-local nicknames to me)
2017-09-07T21:13:08Z jasom: "Also, I have come around to the view that a package name should be a string, not a symbol.  This eliminates the issue of where the package name is interned."
2017-09-07T21:13:14Z _death: jasom: there are also comments re hierarchical packages there btw
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2017-09-07T21:15:30Z _death: jasom: too bad there are many discussions that, it seems, were lost.. there's also https://www.saildart.org which I have yet to thoroughly investigate
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2017-09-07T21:16:25Z ralt: _death: I couldn't make sense of this ML archive until I read the date... eh
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2017-09-07T21:17:52Z _death: ralt: hehe I spent some months reading it.. of course not remembering all the details, but got the spirit of things
2017-09-07T21:18:59Z jasom: _death: was there any discussion about having a hook for converting a token to a symbol?  That would allow much user customization.  I saw one for a per-package hook for interning, which is close but not identical
2017-09-07T21:20:03Z _death: like "soft interning"?
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2017-09-07T21:20:48Z jasom: _death: right, when you determine that a token is not a number, then the reader right now calls intern, I'm suggesting having it call a hook in the readtable
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2017-09-07T21:21:26Z jasom: so then the package system becomes decoupled from the reader
2017-09-07T21:22:18Z _death: I don't know whether it was mentioned or not.. but my guess is "likely" because it's obviously useful
2017-09-07T21:22:56Z Shinmera: Hookable interning would allow for package local nicknames as a library and all sorts of stuff.
2017-09-07T21:27:39Z jasom: _death: this is archive is great; here's the birth of :allow-other-keys: http://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg05534.html
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2017-09-07T21:31:39Z jasom: Shinmera: yup; if you extended it to numbers and pseudo-numbers it would allow portable novel numeric literais that don't start with a macro character.
2017-09-07T21:33:47Z _death: also easier handling of unit-typed numerals.. like 42kg
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2017-09-07T21:36:19Z _death: with macroexpansion-hook and evalhook (see mailing list), it's very likely that all times were considered wrt to hooks and implementations had them
2017-09-07T21:38:09Z jasom: _death: interestingly 42g could be a potential number, but 42kg cannot
2017-09-07T21:38:55Z _death: what do you mean?
2017-09-07T21:39:02Z jasom: clhs 2.3.1.1
2017-09-07T21:39:02Z specbot: Potential Numbers as Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_caa.htm
2017-09-07T21:39:20Z jasom: "no letter that is adjacent to another letter may ever be treated as a number marker"
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2017-09-07T21:39:25Z White_Flame: basically the same as how floating point numbers are tagged
2017-09-07T21:39:55Z White_Flame: ah, no, not quite
2017-09-07T21:40:40Z _death: still, (let ((*read-base* 36)) (read-from-string "42kg")) ;)
2017-09-07T21:40:41Z jasom: all potential numbers that are not actually numbers are reserved for the implementation's use
2017-09-07T21:43:10Z _death: the old UNITS system uses symbols
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2017-09-07T21:44:17Z _death: so if lisp at some time had no integers, 20 years from now I can imagine someone on irc (!) saying, at some point lisp had no units
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2017-09-07T21:49:03Z _death: hmm, maybe the name was MEASURES.. https://github.com/lispm/measures
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2017-09-07T23:48:16Z pjb: White_Flame: (explode 'abc) #| --> (#\A #\B #\C) |#  (implode '(a b c)) #| --> abc ; :internal |#  (symbol-package 'explode) #| --> #<Package "COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.STRING"> |#  not so old ;-)
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2017-09-08T00:05:41Z emaczen: I'm interested in making lisp databases, what is the common interface for writing to disk? Is there some kind of malloc for the disk that will implicitly get called?
2017-09-08T00:05:59Z emaczen: called through this common interface I'm assuming exists
2017-09-08T00:06:16Z emaczen: Would this be at the OS level?
2017-09-08T00:06:40Z edgar-rft: CLHS with-open-file
2017-09-08T00:06:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2017-09-08T00:07:00Z edgar-rft: emaczen ^^
2017-09-08T00:08:13Z emaczen: edgar-rft: How would you return results from a query of a huge file without potentially reading the entire stream?
2017-09-08T00:09:28Z emaczen: My understanding is that DB systems are often implemented as BTrees, how is that BTree mapped to the disk?
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2017-09-08T00:11:41Z jasom: emaczen: see manardb for a memory mapped database; note that you are limited in size if you mmap
2017-09-08T00:11:55Z jasom: emaczen: you seek
2017-09-08T00:12:30Z emaczen: jasom: Ok, so #'file-position? I think I'll go re-read BTrees for a little then
2017-09-08T00:12:37Z jasom: emaczen: yes, file-position if you don't mmap
2017-09-08T00:12:55Z jasom: if you mmap, then you are limited to OSes that support mmap and will need to write some c-ish code for mapping it
2017-09-08T00:13:31Z emaczen: The file-system is an abstraction right? Are the bytes I see in a file really laid out contiguously on disk?
2017-09-08T00:13:34Z malice: jasom: wouldn't cffi work too?
2017-09-08T00:13:41Z jasom: emaczen: a btree is mapped to disk usually by using a file offset as a pointer.
2017-09-08T00:14:05Z jasom: malice: yes you write c-ish code in cffi
2017-09-08T00:14:10Z malice: got it :)
2017-09-08T00:14:30Z malice: emaczen: why do you want to make database in lisp?
2017-09-08T00:15:08Z jasom: emaczen: they may or may not be laid out continguously on disk; you can use raw partitions to ensure that they are contiguous at the LBA level, but with SSDs and block remapping rotating disks it still mgiht not be contiguous
2017-09-08T00:15:29Z emaczen: jasom: So it is an abstraction
2017-09-08T00:15:59Z jasom: emaczen: yes, but even if you directly call to the disk it might not be contiguous because there is an abstraction in the firmware
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2017-09-08T00:17:44Z jasom: 30+ years ago disks were addressed with the actual coordinates, but even before they switched to linear addressing the coordinates became a lie because the cylinder and sector density increased but the head-count staid fairly fixed
2017-09-08T00:19:14Z jasom: emaczen: but if you basically think of a BTree as like an in-memory tree, but with file-offsets instead of memory pointers, you are set for a basic implementation.
2017-09-08T00:20:10Z jasom: If you have fixed size internal nodes and store data only in the leaves then you could, in theory, use offsets in terms of the node count but I don't know if anyone has done it that way.
2017-09-08T00:21:35Z aeth: how do you actually use this in Lisp, though?
2017-09-08T00:21:57Z jasom: aeth: If you need to read a node, you (setf (file-position stream) offset)
2017-09-08T00:22:09Z jasom: then read it in however.
2017-09-08T00:23:09Z jasom: a first implementation might store items with any of these: http://cliki.net/serialization
2017-09-08T00:23:51Z jasom: cl-conspack is probably the best item listed there for a database, as it does prioritize a compact representation
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2017-09-08T00:24:11Z rosa: can lisp automatically regenerating there own code without needing to write it to a seperate file then execute that file
2017-09-08T00:24:16Z rosa: its*
2017-09-08T00:24:29Z jasom: rosa: what do you mkean "regenerating"
2017-09-08T00:24:50Z jasom: rosa: it can compile functions (including function redefinitions) without any file access, if that's a question
2017-09-08T00:25:00Z rosa: like re-write itself acording to specific conditions
2017-09-08T00:25:16Z jasom: rosa: "re-write itself" is still unclear to me.
2017-09-08T00:25:24Z jasom: what is "itself"? a lisp program?
2017-09-08T00:25:28Z rosa: yes
2017-09-08T00:25:31Z phoe: minion: memo for mrottenkolber: thanks - I got your message, I will think of it.
2017-09-08T00:25:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mrottenkolber when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-08T00:25:33Z jasom: If so, then yes, as ASDF can upgrade itself live
2017-09-08T00:26:33Z aeth: There are only three places where you'll have issues with "rewriting itself" afaik. Package definitions and (in some implementations) struct definitions. Also potentially inline functions and macros (a function could have access to a stale version of an inline function or macro unless that is also recompiled).
2017-09-08T00:26:36Z rosa: like say u autogenerate a lisp program according to certain conditions and various factors, can u do that to itself without needing to execute a seperate process everytime its code is regenorated?
2017-09-08T00:26:37Z jasom: rosa: the only gotcha is that functions defined within the same file can't be portably redefined independently unless you declare them "notinline" since functions in the same file are allowed to be mutually inlined
2017-09-08T00:26:42Z aeth: I think ASDF and UIOP handle packages specially
2017-09-08T00:26:46Z jasom: rosa: yes
2017-09-08T00:26:58Z jasom: rosa: lisp can incrementally compile and load programs at runtime
2017-09-08T00:27:19Z jasom: rosa: though see aeth's comments about structures and package definitions
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2017-09-08T00:27:39Z jasom: packages *can* be redefined at runtime just fine, but you have to do it right.  structs are more problematic
2017-09-08T00:27:44Z aeth: Adding to package definitions is no problem. Removing is the issue, iirc.
2017-09-08T00:27:55Z aeth: You can do that manually, of course. Tricky, though
2017-09-08T00:27:56Z jasom: aeth: yeah, you have to delete the package and recreate
2017-09-08T00:28:24Z jasom: rosa: every time you type in DEFUN at the repl, you're modifying a live running program.
2017-09-08T00:28:38Z rosa: kinda like regenorating external modules that it uses then reloading them except that the modules are inside the program itself
2017-09-08T00:29:48Z pillton: jasom: Does "mutually inlined" mean a user can request specific functions to be inlined?
2017-09-08T00:30:09Z rosa: or probably not like that as it ay not have full access to the code's variables and stuff
2017-09-08T00:30:13Z rosa: have*
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2017-09-08T00:30:21Z rosa: as it may not have*
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2017-09-08T00:52:50Z rosa: is it possible to impliment a self modifying program by having a "mother" program monitor a certain file that it uses as its main program for any changes and upon detecting a change it shall recompile that file if it is a compilable language then (if compilable based on wether the file compiles succesfully or not) execute that file from the point where the previous file was at before it detected the code change including all current
2017-09-08T00:52:51Z rosa: variable, arrays and other stuf that will allow it to continue from where it was paused during the code change
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2017-09-08T00:56:18Z Bike: seems complicated.
2017-09-08T00:56:19Z rosa: for example it might auto append and prepend code to a certain segment of code that is based on how many lines the code segment is
2017-09-08T00:56:51Z Bike: but yes, you can do whatever you please
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2017-09-08T03:49:34Z jasom: pillton: I meant that any function defined within the same LOAD command can assume that the definitions of all other such functions will not change, which allows for (among other things) inlining
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2017-09-08T04:23:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-08T04:25:03Z phoe: oho
2017-09-08T04:25:05Z phoe: it's time to sleep
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2017-09-08T06:04:34Z jasom: that joke will get old eventually
2017-09-08T06:05:01Z beach: What joke?
2017-09-08T06:05:36Z jasom: 21:24:25        beach | Good morning everyone!  21:25:41         phoe | it's time to sleep
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2017-09-08T06:28:11Z shka_: hello
2017-09-08T06:28:25Z beach: Hello shka_.
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2017-09-08T06:49:32Z pillton: jasom: I don't think that is right.
2017-09-08T06:49:48Z pillton: jasom: I'll have to look that up later tonight.
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2017-09-08T06:51:17Z phoe: jasom: not a joke
2017-09-08T06:51:22Z phoe: I need to go to sleep
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2017-09-08T07:15:54Z Shinmera: Xach: Are you responsible for https://twitter.com/planet_lisp? Any idea why it hasn't been updating?
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2017-09-08T07:32:19Z jasom: clhs 3.2.2.3
2017-09-08T07:32:19Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
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2017-09-08T07:32:34Z jasom: pillton: see above: "A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file. "
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2017-09-08T08:16:56Z hajovonta: hello
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2017-09-08T09:02:34Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2017-09-08T09:21:28Z hjudt: Shinmera: now i stumbled over a severe problem: https://pastebin.com/ASPEKZ5D
2017-09-08T09:22:18Z hjudt: paste this into a .ctml template and view it in the browser. then paste it into a html file and view it in the browser. notice what it does to the <b> in the javascript code?
2017-09-08T09:22:53Z hjudt: i mean view the ctml in the browser after it has been processed by radiance...
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2017-09-08T09:23:40Z hjudt: in a nutshell: r-clip somehow interferes with the jquery .html() so that it is no longer possible to add tags via javascript.
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2017-09-08T09:24:33Z hjudt: actually i believe it not to be a problem with jquery but any strings that contain html tags in javascript...
2017-09-08T09:26:24Z hjudt: another minor problem: if i omit the xmlns as i am allowed to in html5, then firefox will show me the dom structure instead of rendering the page.
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2017-09-08T09:30:55Z hjudt: actually this may not be a problem with clip, because manually processing it (clip:process-to-string...) doesn't cause this
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2017-09-08T09:32:31Z Shinmera: hjudt: Plump by default serialises everything as XHTML. You need to emit the proper content-type header.
2017-09-08T09:32:47Z Shinmera: Or rather, it serialises as XML, so in effect XHTML
2017-09-08T09:34:01Z hjudt: if i download the file via wget, then all seems correct. if i load it in the browser, it doesn't work.
2017-09-08T09:34:10Z hjudt: (for the first problem)
2017-09-08T09:34:38Z hjudt: where can i set a default content type header?
2017-09-08T09:35:20Z Shinmera: If you're using r-clip, it should set that header for you.
2017-09-08T09:35:51Z hjudt: i do
2017-09-08T09:37:26Z Shinmera: If I (plump:serialize (r-clip:process #p"test.ctml")) The file looks just fine.
2017-09-08T09:37:46Z hjudt: yet omitting xmlns in the template makes the browser show the dom tree instead of the rendered page
2017-09-08T09:38:17Z Shinmera: Well yes. Without an xml namespace, the xml document can't be rendered.
2017-09-08T09:39:40Z hjudt: ok. is there a way to not render it as an xml document, that is as html5?
2017-09-08T09:40:32Z Shinmera: No. <https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/issues/7>
2017-09-08T09:40:34Z Shinmera: Besides, why?
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2017-09-08T09:44:31Z Shinmera: I don't know what you mean by "notice what it does to the <b>?" It doesn't seem to do anything at all with it from what I can see.
2017-09-08T09:45:44Z hjudt: mistake on my behalf. clip works correctly, but when i view the page served by radiance in the browser, then the <b>...</b> does not get printed.
2017-09-08T09:46:09Z hjudt: that is, only XXX is printed, everything enclosed by the tags is not.
2017-09-08T09:46:38Z hjudt: but saving the file to disk, then opening it in the browser makes it render fine.
2017-09-08T09:46:42Z hjudt: radiance problem?
2017-09-08T09:47:45Z hjudt: however, if i use html entities &lt;b&gt;...&lt;/b&gt; it works fine when served by radiance too.
2017-09-08T09:47:58Z hjudt: can you reproduce this?
2017-09-08T09:48:39Z Shinmera: It's not a fault of Radiance. The emitted page source is not transformed in anyway.
2017-09-08T09:48:57Z hjudt: server setup problem?
2017-09-08T09:49:05Z Shinmera: No, a browser problem.
2017-09-08T09:49:17Z hjudt: both opera and firefox have this problem.
2017-09-08T09:49:29Z Shinmera: It seems that it does not consider sub-elements in script tags as part of the script.
2017-09-08T09:49:44Z Shinmera: As in, script tags are not treated as fulltext nodes.
2017-09-08T09:50:09Z hjudt: but why does it work when opening the file from disk?
2017-09-08T09:50:42Z Shinmera: Because it probably doesn't treat it like real XML.
2017-09-08T09:50:54Z Shinmera: Since there's no content-type header to go by for a file.
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2017-09-08T09:51:34Z Shinmera: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Archive/Web/Writing_JavaScript_for_HTML
2017-09-08T09:52:16Z Shinmera: Generally: 1. don't write inline JS 2. if you do, either escape special characters or use CDATA
2017-09-08T09:52:30Z Shinmera: But still you'll probably want to do 1.
2017-09-08T09:53:40Z hjudt: i've placed this file (see pastebin) on an apache web server and there it works fine.
2017-09-08T09:53:53Z Shinmera: Because the webserver doesn't emit the content-type tag.
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2017-09-08T09:54:09Z Shinmera: If you output XHTML with the text/html standard content-type you'll run into other problems before long.
2017-09-08T09:55:22Z Shinmera: You either have to stick with XHTML all the way, or HTML all the way. Unfortunately, only XHTML is really supported by Clip/Plump right now.
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2017-09-08T09:55:58Z hjudt: 2 works, so i could probably do 1 too.
2017-09-08T09:56:40Z Shinmera: The reason why you don't want to write inline JS is because it doesn't cache well. You'll also want to place your scripts before the closing <body>.
2017-09-08T09:56:54Z Shinmera: So that the DOM can start rendering and doesn't have to wait for your scripts to load.
2017-09-08T09:57:48Z hjudt: i've only started with it, so i haven't decided on the file/directory layout anyway
2017-09-08T09:58:30Z hjudt: i am not sure if it is better to use html5 than xhtml. probably only if using some of that media stuff.
2017-09-08T09:58:52Z Shinmera: You can use XHTML5.
2017-09-08T10:00:27Z Shinmera: Anyway, if you want to use JS files with Clip, just place the file in the static/ folder and use <script type="text/javascript" src="../static/foo.js" @src="/static/my-app/foo.js" />
2017-09-08T10:00:58Z Shinmera: Meanwhile I'll think some more about serialisation modes in Plump.
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2017-09-08T10:02:56Z hjudt: ok thanks
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2017-09-08T10:11:42Z hjudt: maybe clarify this in the tutorial? when i started using your tutorial, i did not go with your plaster example but with my own project. i only used the tutorial as guidance. perhaps other people have a similar work flow, then it would help them to know about these things. your mileage may vary...
2017-09-08T10:11:57Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2017-09-08T10:26:21Z pillton: jasom: Weird.
2017-09-08T10:26:59Z pillton: jasom: I wonder how that "minimizes the difference between compiled and interpreted programs"?
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2017-09-08T12:57:12Z tfb: pillton: because both compiled and interpreted code must make the same assumption (ie it's not the case that this restriction is true just if you have compiled a file)
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2017-09-08T13:00:12Z Bike: and it's in there in the first place so that compilation can do, like, anything. if you can't assume definitions are stable you can't really do any analysis except on CL: functions.
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2017-09-08T13:01:21Z tfb: Bike: yes.  I was going to say that it would be possible to make the opposite assumption (you can never assume a function is what it looks like it is) but that would make it stupidly hard to have a good compiler
2017-09-08T13:01:52Z tfb: Bike: youi'd end up with Python (not the CL compiler, the language)...
2017-09-08T13:02:07Z Bike: something like that.
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2017-09-08T13:17:42Z whoman: https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/title.xml
2017-09-08T13:17:54Z whoman: (lisp machine manual, june 1984 )
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2017-09-08T13:19:53Z knobo: If I have a usocket stream, does alexandria:read-stream-content-into-string read everything until socket close, or do I have to run it in loop?
2017-09-08T13:23:48Z Shinmera: It reads until end-of-file. How else would it know when to stop?
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2017-09-08T13:29:55Z knobo: until buffer is full
2017-09-08T13:31:07Z Shinmera: It's a buffer, not the string you read into.
2017-09-08T13:31:28Z Shinmera: Besides, you could've answered your own question in two seconds by just using M-.
2017-09-08T13:34:47Z knobo: read-sequence blocks until connection closes then.
2017-09-08T13:35:17Z Shinmera: clhs read-sequence
2017-09-08T13:35:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm
2017-09-08T13:35:32Z Shinmera: "Sequence is destructively modified by copying successive elements into it from stream. If the end of file for stream is reached before copying all elements of the subsequence, then the extra elements near the end of sequence are not updated."
2017-09-08T13:36:23Z whoman: as for alexandria: buffer size is 4096 by default
2017-09-08T13:37:01Z whoman: like Shinmera put your mark over alexandria:read-stream-content-into string then press M-.
2017-09-08T13:37:06Z whoman: said+*
2017-09-08T13:38:17Z knobo: So, eof is sent when client closes the connection.
2017-09-08T13:39:39Z knobo: ok.. I'll stop now..
2017-09-08T13:39:45Z knobo: But thank you
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2017-09-08T13:46:10Z Xach: Shinmera: it is H4ns who runs @planet_lisp
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2017-09-08T14:00:01Z Xach: it is he who can fix it!!
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2017-09-08T14:01:39Z Shinmera: Didn't he say a while ago that he would like to stop maintaining his CL projects?
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2017-09-08T14:05:12Z whoman: is anyone working with opengenera/virtual lisp machine ?
2017-09-08T14:05:19Z whoman: or is it all proprietary unusable code
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2017-09-08T14:05:47Z beach: It is proprietary, but there are people working on it anyway.
2017-09-08T14:06:10Z whoman: hm
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2017-09-08T14:13:23Z beach: whoman: Why are you asking?
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2017-09-08T14:20:13Z whoman: ah, just doing research right now. [eg, just looking at http://pixielang.org/ ]
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2017-09-08T14:23:26Z whoman: got some inspiration from another channel to look at experimenting with languages, parsing and evaluation. a cs field i never got completely into directly myself, is compiler technologies
2017-09-08T14:26:28Z beach: Let me know if you want me to give you some projects. :)
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2017-09-08T14:27:35Z whoman: is it mcclim backend stuff ? if i had any self-management at all, i would have a project to organize all my project ideas so im not frozen and suffocating with inspiration =P
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2017-09-08T14:28:30Z beach: Not this time.  Because you mentioned compiler technology, I was thinking more about SICL and Cleavir, but I really don't have any project already thought out.
2017-09-08T14:28:33Z whoman: curious though! ive got many ideas but not enough brain memory or consistency with current personal life to commit to one or two
2017-09-08T14:28:35Z beach: ... for you, I mean.
2017-09-08T14:28:46Z whoman: oh, cleavir? refreshing memory ..
2017-09-08T14:29:00Z beach: minion: Please tell whoman about Cleavir.
2017-09-08T14:29:00Z minion: whoman: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2017-09-08T14:29:37Z whoman: oh! well that sounds great =) would clasp use it along with sbcl etc for eg.?
2017-09-08T14:30:09Z beach: Clasp is already using it for its main compiler.
2017-09-08T14:30:32Z mazoe: beach: whoa. That's awesome. Ambitious
2017-09-08T14:30:51Z whoman: beautiful
2017-09-08T14:31:16Z whoman: i today began investigation of SICP myself, so we are having nice coincidences
2017-09-08T14:31:30Z beach: mazoe: Thanks!
2017-09-08T14:31:42Z whoman: i will read some of cleavir now on github
2017-09-08T14:31:58Z beach: There is actually some documentation, too.
2017-09-08T14:32:16Z beach: In SICL/Code/Cleavir/Documentation, as I recall.
2017-09-08T14:32:28Z mazoe: how is clasp coming along? I haven't checked up on it for a while
2017-09-08T14:32:33Z whoman: ou=)
2017-09-08T14:33:01Z whoman: the channel has much activity
2017-09-08T14:33:07Z whoman: working hard they are
2017-09-08T14:34:09Z beach: mazoe: That is where we discuss a lot of the SICL and Cleavir stuff, since Clasp is slowly turning into a SICL system (SICL generic function dispatch, Cleavir compiler, SICL first-class global environments, etc.).
2017-09-08T14:35:52Z whoman: oops i was mistaking SICL acro for SICP ~_~
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2017-09-08T14:36:23Z beach: minion: Please tell whoman about SICL.
2017-09-08T14:36:24Z minion: whoman: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2017-09-08T14:36:28Z whoman: hmm so, this is common lisp written in common lisp? that would make a bit of sense.
2017-09-08T14:36:44Z whoman: yes, i am all over github right now =)
2017-09-08T14:37:17Z mazoe: beach: sounds good
2017-09-08T14:37:32Z beach: Thanks.
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2017-09-08T15:08:39Z beach: whoman: If you want to learn about compiler technology, I recommend the book by Muchnick: Advanced Compiler Design and Implementation
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2017-09-08T15:09:49Z beach: whoman: The book is good in that it summarizes research into each domain.  However, the algorithmic language in the book is really bad.  So I typically go to the source (usually a published paper) for the details of some technique.
2017-09-08T15:10:17Z shka: this book is not introduction, though
2017-09-08T15:10:32Z beach: What would you consider an introduction?
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2017-09-08T15:10:51Z shka: no example to offer if you ask about that
2017-09-08T15:11:11Z shka: anyway, book focuses on advanced topics like optimalization
2017-09-08T15:11:24Z shka: oh well, perhaps dragon book
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2017-09-08T15:13:05Z beach: The problem with most books that pretend to be about compilers is that they handle most of the uninteresting topics in depth (like parsing) and then they become very skimpy on the important part (like code optimization).
2017-09-08T15:13:31Z beach: So they give an incorrect impression of what the domain is about.
2017-09-08T15:14:05Z beach: Now, granted, I haven't read the latest editions of the dragon book, so perhaps it is better than the one I read.
2017-09-08T15:14:13Z White_Flame: if you don't know how compilers work at all, it's good to know how the heck this "magic" actually does its thing
2017-09-08T15:14:26Z White_Flame: and I'd consider that to be introductory
2017-09-08T15:14:32Z White_Flame: even without optimization and such
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2017-09-08T15:15:28Z beach: Yeah, you are probably right.  I wrote my first compiler in 1976, so I have probably forgotten the difficulties by now.
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2017-09-08T15:16:14Z White_Flame: yep, like experts saying that a wikipedia page covers everything, yet is totally opaque to learners
2017-09-08T15:16:49Z shka: beach: that makes you die hard veteran of compilers
2017-09-08T15:17:08Z shka: you perspective is very unique
2017-09-08T15:17:56Z beach: Not that unique I am afraid.
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2017-09-08T15:45:23Z phoe: I just saw gabriel_laddel's video
2017-09-08T15:45:35Z phoe: It's crazy
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2017-09-08T15:45:52Z beach: Hmm, I was told not to show it to anyone.  Where did you find it?
2017-09-08T15:45:57Z beach: Did he make it public?
2017-09-08T15:46:47Z shka: phoe: you are such a tease
2017-09-08T15:51:32Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6yuajg/lisp_machine_rides_again/
2017-09-08T15:51:45Z phoe: beach: looks like he publicized it
2017-09-08T15:52:11Z beach: Excellent!
2017-09-08T15:52:36Z beach: I have not dared to say anything so as not to "tease".
2017-09-08T15:54:09Z beach: The people in #clim need to see it.
2017-09-08T15:54:31Z phoe: beach: will you post it there?
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2017-09-08T15:54:36Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-08T15:57:11Z shka: how those it work?
2017-09-08T15:57:21Z shka: it is all software rendering?
2017-09-08T15:57:28Z shka: some things look like opengl
2017-09-08T15:57:37Z beach: I think it's a mix.
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2017-09-08T15:59:58Z shka: i need to check how climacs works
2017-09-08T16:00:02Z beach: phoe: Do you think people will be less likely to disregard McCLIM now?
2017-09-08T16:00:14Z beach: shka: Use the version in Quicklisp.
2017-09-08T16:00:23Z shka: i will, thanks
2017-09-08T16:00:50Z shka: i think hat this looks like a very solid demo
2017-09-08T16:01:55Z shka: it is very interactive to say the least
2017-09-08T16:02:08Z beach: shka: It is all McCLIM stuff.
2017-09-08T16:02:49Z beach: He adapted a few things, but it is basically just McCLIM, the listener, the inspector, Climacs, the "debugger", etc.
2017-09-08T16:03:13Z shka: also stumpwm
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2017-09-08T16:03:21Z beach: Ah, yes, maybe so.
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2017-09-08T16:03:53Z shka: and those fancy animated plots?
2017-09-08T16:03:58Z shka: those are from climacs?
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2017-09-08T16:06:42Z beach: I doubt it.  Climacs is just the editor.
2017-09-08T16:06:52Z beach: It is probably shown in the CLIM Listener.
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2017-09-08T16:08:26Z shka: hm
2017-09-08T16:08:50Z shka: well, this looks good
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2017-09-08T16:08:58Z beach: Yes, it does.
2017-09-08T16:09:02Z whoman: beach, hmm, i am alright jumping into advanced topics, learning is no-issue for me, but i learn best by doing and experimenting, getting my hands dirty
2017-09-08T16:09:14Z shka: could use modern polish (smooth animations etc.)
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2017-09-08T16:09:46Z beach: whoman: Great.  Don't hesitate to ask for help if you feel you need it.
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2017-09-08T16:11:00Z phoe: beach: yes.
2017-09-08T16:11:06Z phoe: shrdlu68: that's gnuplot
2017-09-08T16:11:16Z phoe: but he says it will be replaced by McCLIM some time.
2017-09-08T16:12:13Z whoman: beach, thank you brother =)
2017-09-08T16:12:22Z beach: Anytime!
2017-09-08T16:12:27Z whoman: the video is great, above, watching it now
2017-09-08T16:12:35Z whoman: x cursor ~_~
2017-09-08T16:12:38Z beach: phoe: Did you mean shka rather than shrdlu68.
2017-09-08T16:13:30Z phoe: beach: yes.
2017-09-08T16:13:38Z phoe: ...but he disappeared.
2017-09-08T16:13:56Z beach: Yes, I see that now.  How impolite.
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2017-09-08T16:16:19Z phoe: minion: memo for shka: the plots are gnuplot, but he says it will be replaced by McCLIM some time.
2017-09-08T16:16:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-08T16:16:43Z phoe: and I really love his arrogance here, where he seems to separate everything into Lisp, UNIX and ALGOL
2017-09-08T16:16:59Z whoman: ...and he just changed the cursor with lisp
2017-09-08T16:17:34Z whoman: *with code
2017-09-08T16:20:50Z vtomole: Is there a way I could download clhs so I could open it up in emacs when I need to lookup something?
2017-09-08T16:21:13Z beach: Yes, it is available on the LispWorks site.
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2017-09-08T16:23:44Z beach: ftp://ftp.lispworks.com/pub/software_tools/reference/HyperSpec-7-0.tar.gz
2017-09-08T16:24:19Z vtomole: Thanks
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2017-09-08T16:24:31Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-08T16:28:06Z whoman: vtomole, slime integrates it a little, if you use that
2017-09-08T16:28:19Z emaczen: Is there a function similar to size-of in C?
2017-09-08T16:28:42Z Bike: No. Why do you want it?
2017-09-08T16:28:50Z phoe: emaczen: size-of what?
2017-09-08T16:28:52Z whoman: #'length ?
2017-09-08T16:29:04Z Bike: length is not like sizeof very meaningfully.
2017-09-08T16:29:12Z emaczen: phoe: size-of a class object
2017-09-08T16:29:19Z mfiano: integer-length is the closest thing but pretty different heh
2017-09-08T16:29:38Z emaczen: I want ot find the total size of a class object, so I would need to find the size-of each slot
2017-09-08T16:29:42Z whoman: yeah not at all like it.. unless its a struct ?
2017-09-08T16:29:46Z Bike: Why do you want to do that?
2017-09-08T16:29:58Z Bike: C sizeof doesn't make so much sense in a lisp context.
2017-09-08T16:29:59Z vtomole: Bike: To know how many bytes an object is taking?
2017-09-08T16:30:03Z beach: emaczen: What are you planning to do with this information?
2017-09-08T16:30:16Z whoman: just call out to C
2017-09-08T16:30:25Z Bike: that doesn't make any sense, whoman.
2017-09-08T16:30:35Z vtomole: CFFI
2017-09-08T16:30:41Z Bike: sizeof in C is an operator. it doesn't work on runtime information. and obviously it doesn't know dick about lisp classes.
2017-09-08T16:30:43Z whoman: im following the line of questioning. wondering what he is doing with it - may as well do that in C
2017-09-08T16:30:50Z emaczen: I'm going to write a tree structure to a file and I would need to know the number of bytes to be able to write a search method that seeks through the file
2017-09-08T16:31:10Z Bike: Okay, so what you're concerned with is the length of the SERIALIZATION of an object.
2017-09-08T16:31:28Z emaczen: Bike: I guess I can figure that out then...
2017-09-08T16:31:32Z Bike: which depends on your serialization format. what is your serialization format?
2017-09-08T16:31:32Z emaczen: haha thanks
2017-09-08T16:32:09Z phoe: define some way of serializing stuff, then define some way of finding out what is the required size for the serialized objects
2017-09-08T16:32:23Z phoe: preferably by serializing them and finding the length of the serialized representation
2017-09-08T16:33:09Z emaczen: Yep, I got it. I wasn't thinking it through...
2017-09-08T16:33:22Z Bike: well, gluck
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2017-09-08T16:35:26Z phoe: you really don't want to serialize Lisp objects as they appear in memory because you'll run into issues with everything, including restoring them to memory in the first place and dependencies on other objects in the second place
2017-09-08T16:36:05Z phoe: better to dump their contents and later recreate new objects from them
2017-09-08T16:36:39Z mfiano: If you're serializing arbitrary lisp objects, I would take a look at cl-conspack.
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2017-09-08T16:39:32Z phoe: or that, already use a working solution
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2017-09-08T16:54:51Z jasom: Anyone have a link to a blog article about memory usage on sbcl when running a service?  Their solution was to manually invoke the GC periodically, and this caused the memory usage to stabilize sooner and at a much lower value
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2017-09-08T16:55:42Z phoe: jasom: https://tech.grammarly.com/blog/running-lisp-in-production
2017-09-08T16:55:43Z phoe: this?
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2017-09-08T16:56:41Z jasom: phoe: that's the one
2017-09-08T16:57:46Z phoe: <3
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2017-09-08T17:05:04Z jasom: minion: memo for emaczen: you don't need to know the size of anything for searching a B-Tree; you only need to know the position of the child nodes.
2017-09-08T17:05:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-09-08T17:10:35Z gendl: Hi, using net.html.parser:parse-html on some utf-16 input - external-formats seem to differ in each Lisp I am trying to use:
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2017-09-08T17:10:43Z gendl: Allegro - :external-format :unicode
2017-09-08T17:10:50Z gendl: CCL - :external-format :utf-16
2017-09-08T17:11:00Z gendl: SBCL - :external-format :utf-16le
2017-09-08T17:11:18Z gendl: and with SBCL, it is retaining the BOM from the beginning of the file (not so on the others).
2017-09-08T17:12:11Z gendl: Should I expect to have to conditionalize for SBCL to throw away that first character? Or is there a way to have it auto-detect the BOM and throw it away as the other Lisps apparently are doing? or should I ask this in #sbcl?
2017-09-08T17:12:44Z phoe: gendl: as for BOM, sounds like #sbcl
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2017-09-08T17:18:30Z jasom: gendl: use something like babel if you want portable character encodings
2017-09-08T17:19:04Z jasom: gendl: though if net.html.parser isn't set up to use babel than you may need to modify it or use something else
2017-09-08T17:20:56Z gendl: jasom: yeah, without overhauling what I'm doing, I think all I need is a portable mapping for :utf-16 external-format - i.e. a parameter *utf-16-ef* which maps to the correct keyword depending on the host Lisp -
2017-09-08T17:21:24Z gendl: my understanding is that Babel is both overkill and not applicable for that simple purpose... is that right?
2017-09-08T17:21:36Z jasom: gendl: if you're fine with some lisps preserving BOM and some discarding, sure
2017-09-08T17:21:52Z gendl: so babel will take care of stuff like that?
2017-09-08T17:22:27Z gendl: ... but i would have to retro-fit net.html.parser to call through babel rather than directly reading stuff, right?
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2017-09-08T17:22:58Z gendl: or, as you say, use something different for the html parsing
2017-09-08T17:23:00Z jasom: gendl: correct, and it's been a while, but babel does have some code for handling BOM
2017-09-08T17:26:18Z jasom: gendl: I just checked and babel will decode any string specified as :utf-16 and starting with a BOM correctly
2017-09-08T17:26:55Z jasom: gendl: it ignores it in UTF-8 as well, which is non-standard but common behavior
2017-09-08T17:27:22Z jasom: and it will ignore it if you specify the correct endianness for utf-16
2017-09-08T17:27:37Z jasom: (and produce garbage for it if you specify the incorrect endiannes)
2017-09-08T17:28:25Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355345 <-- sample
2017-09-08T17:28:33Z gendl: well then... looking at my code, maybe I can use babel in conjunction with net.html.parser...
2017-09-08T17:28:59Z gendl: the external-format is specified on the (with-open-file  (in file-name) :external-format ... )   ... )
2017-09-08T17:29:12Z gendl: and the parse-html is done on the stream within the with-open-file.
2017-09-08T17:30:12Z gendl: so i'm not sure if babel can be used in lieu of the standard with-open-file, or somehow in between the with-open-file and the parsing...?
2017-09-08T17:30:14Z jasom: gendl: so you can use babel-streams then, assuming your HTML fits reasonably within memory
2017-09-08T17:30:37Z gendl: I expect everything I'm doing to fit within memory.
2017-09-08T17:30:56Z gendl starts diving into babel docs
2017-09-08T17:31:49Z jasom: gendl: so yeah, if you slurp the file into an octet vector, you can use babel's with-input-from-sequence
2017-09-08T17:32:35Z gendl: I see. Will give it a go, thanks.
2017-09-08T17:33:49Z gendl: it looks like with-input-from-sequence is a flexi-streams thing rather than a babel thing.
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2017-09-08T17:35:22Z jasom: gendl: babel-streams:with-input-from-sequence
2017-09-08T17:35:31Z gendl: Ok.
2017-09-08T17:35:55Z gendl: sorry for the noise, I'll read some docs before posting here any more...
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2017-09-08T17:37:07Z jasom needs to finish up his portable unicode stream reading library.  UTF-8 is within 20% of the speed of a bare stream on sbcl (sbcl wins only because it generates a conditional move where I generate a branch; I haven't figured out how to massage the compiler there).
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2017-09-08T18:11:28Z ecraven: does slime have a command to copy the output of the last command? I can clear it, but there seems to be nothing to copy it to the kill ring?
2017-09-08T18:12:06Z Xach: ecraven: i haven't noticed one! i have been doing it manually
2017-09-08T18:12:28Z ecraven: Xach: might one add such a command? ;) where would slime PRs be sent?
2017-09-08T18:12:39Z Xach: ecraven: not sure. the mailing list, maybe.
2017-09-08T18:12:47Z ecraven: I want to kill to killring more often than just remove it
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2017-09-08T18:13:49Z jackdaniel: ecraven: here https://github.com/slime/slime/pulls
2017-09-08T18:14:09Z pjb: ecraven: you can use the pop-up menu on the presentation to copy it to the kill ring.
2017-09-08T18:15:17Z pjb: ecraven: you could write a command that would move the point to the previous presentation and use slime-copy-presentation-at-point-to-kill-ring.
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2017-09-08T18:16:07Z ecraven: jackdaniel: thanks!
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2017-09-08T18:17:26Z ecraven: pjb: I'll look into that
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2017-09-08T18:17:39Z ecraven: I've been thinking about nested presentations since playing around with genera
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2017-09-08T18:24:34Z rpg: ecraven, Xach: I wrote a version of what you want for SLIME.
2017-09-08T18:24:47Z rpg: Copied it from Franz's ELI emacs lisp mode.
2017-09-08T18:25:06Z rpg: Oh, wait no -- sorry -- misread the question.
2017-09-08T18:25:09Z rpg: Nevermind
2017-09-08T18:25:49Z rpg: When I copy stuff into the REPL in SLIME sometimes I get errors where a list is mistakenly treated as a funcall...
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2017-09-08T19:05:27Z Xach: Hmm, is there a sly repl command to search for previous input in history? I use M-r for that a lot in slime.
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2017-09-08T19:11:41Z mfiano:  yes
2017-09-08T19:12:28Z Xach: What is the key binding?
2017-09-08T19:12:41Z mfiano: C-r
2017-09-08T19:12:48Z Xach: Thanks.
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2017-09-08T19:28:49Z didi: In SLIME, can I limit the number of elements of a sequence it will print? If my sequence has many elements (> 1 M) my slime lose the connection to the inferior process. Emacs also consumes lots of RAM in the process.
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2017-09-08T19:32:13Z pjb: didi: yes, you can.
2017-09-08T19:32:35Z didi: pjb: How do I do it?
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2017-09-08T19:33:32Z pjb: You set *print-length* etc in the right context. http://paste.lisp.org/display/355351
2017-09-08T19:33:42Z didi: pjb: Thank you.
2017-09-08T19:34:20Z Bike: i set print-length in my rc files just for that reason
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2017-09-08T19:35:03Z didi: Bike: Ah, cool.
2017-09-08T19:35:41Z Bike: which may or may not be what that paste is
2017-09-08T19:36:15Z didi: I look for dropping (progn big-list t) from my REPL.
2017-09-08T19:36:47Z Bike: i usually just set it to 20 or 50 or something. not like i'm gonna get much out of longer lists or strings
2017-09-08T19:36:59Z Bike: there's nothing like that for big numbers, which is a little unfortunate
2017-09-08T19:37:01Z pjb: The thing is that you may want a different *print-length* in the normal REPL, the slime REPL or C-u C-x C-e in buffers.
2017-09-08T19:37:23Z pjb: Also, slime use different bindings for the inspector, etc.
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2017-09-08T19:40:53Z mtl_: anyone here remember how to define progn as a macro? Just trying to explain it to a friend, but I'm too rusty(haven't touched any code in months) and tipsy to remember
2017-09-08T19:41:34Z pjb: (defmacro progn (&body body) (first (last (list ,@body))))
2017-09-08T19:41:44Z pjb: (defmacro progn (&body body) ((lambda () ,@body)))
2017-09-08T19:41:52Z pjb: Oops, add the missing `
2017-09-08T19:42:12Z Xach: mtl_: there are many ways, but (defmacro .progn (&rest forms) `((lambda () ,@forms))) is one option
2017-09-08T19:42:18Z Xach: it is not really the same
2017-09-08T19:42:27Z Xach: toplevelness and such
2017-09-08T19:42:36Z mtl_: well that just defers to the implicit progn in LAMBDA, no?
2017-09-08T19:42:39Z pjb: Well, in a way lambda is cheating since lambda is defined as having an implicit progn.
2017-09-08T19:42:57Z Bike: if you want really explicit sequencing all the ways are kind of dumb.
2017-09-08T19:43:12Z mtl_: I was looking for the one where you assume lambda has no progn in it
2017-09-08T19:43:28Z mtl_: again not for serious programming just to illustrate a point to a friend who's learning lisp
2017-09-08T19:43:31Z pjb: If you take lambda as primitive, then go ahead.
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2017-09-08T19:43:50Z Bike: you can do pjb's, or you can do like (defmacro progn (&body body) (cond ((null body) nil) ((null (rest body)) (first body)) (t `((lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) (progn ,@(rest body))) (first body)))))
2017-09-08T19:44:07Z Bike: this isn't going to be terribly educational. progn's a special operator for a reason
2017-09-08T19:44:27Z Bike: oh, and that's wrong since you need a gensym. so it goes.
2017-09-08T19:44:31Z didi: Xach: How is the sly experiment going?
2017-09-08T19:44:32Z pjb: So defining progn in terms of progn…
2017-09-08T19:44:40Z Xach: didi: fewer speed bumps today
2017-09-08T19:44:46Z pjb: Bike: better use a recursive macro embedding lambda calls.
2017-09-08T19:44:46Z didi: Nice.
2017-09-08T19:45:01Z Bike: any way of writing this will be stupid.
2017-09-08T19:45:12Z mtl_: pjb: yeah the recursive thing with a chain of lambdas is what I remember
2017-09-08T19:45:19Z mtl_: I just can't for the life of me reproduce it
2017-09-08T19:45:22Z mtl_: or find it online
2017-09-08T19:45:39Z Bike: just wrote it mate
2017-09-08T19:45:56Z mtl_: let me just indent it properly in emacs and have a look at it
2017-09-08T19:46:01Z pjb: (defmacro progn (&body body) (cond ((null body) 'nil) ((null (rest body)) `((lambda () ,(first body)))) (t ((lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) (progn ,@(rest body))) ,(first body)))))
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2017-09-08T19:46:56Z pjb: Here we have a recursive call to the macro body, so the total macro expand is like (lambda (x) (lambda (x) … (lambda (x) last-body-form) …) first-body-form).
2017-09-08T19:48:19Z Bike: what this relies on is that lisp is call by value, which is kind of interesting, but kind of far away from progn
2017-09-08T19:48:25Z pjb: Bike: Sorry, I'm sleepy. I thought you were defining .progn, not progn, and your recursive call was cl:progn instead.
2017-09-08T19:48:45Z Bike: nope.
2017-09-08T19:49:04Z pjb: Well, it explicits the fact that the expressions in the body are evaluated in order.
2017-09-08T19:52:30Z mtl_: Bike: yes, your definition makes sense except for the gensym part
2017-09-08T19:53:09Z mtl_: and it's ,(first body)
2017-09-08T19:53:12Z pjb: mtl_: you don't want x to shadow a variable.
2017-09-08T19:53:25Z pjb: So you need to use a gensym instead.
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2017-09-08T19:54:11Z mtl_: yeah I know about gensyms
2017-09-08T19:54:44Z mtl_: was just a bit rough to jump straight into recursive macros after not touching lisp for months(or any programming in general)
2017-09-08T19:59:46Z pjb: You can also make it with a loop.
2017-09-08T20:01:20Z Bike: (defmacro progn (&rest forms) (let ((s (loop for f in forms collect (gensym)))) `((lambda (,@s) (declare (ignore ,@(butlast s))) ,(first (last s))) ,@forms)))
2017-09-08T20:01:37Z Bike: saying that progn can be a macro basically amounts to saying other parts of the language have sequencing
2017-09-08T20:02:37Z pjb: You have to be careful with the last form for multiple-values.
2017-09-08T20:02:57Z pjb: progn is actually multiple-value-progn.
2017-09-08T20:03:27Z Bike: yes, i suppose
2017-09-08T20:03:33Z Bike: there's no compile time side effects either
2017-09-08T20:03:34Z Bike: bit pointless
2017-09-08T20:04:23Z pjb: for example the implementation with list doesn't work.
2017-09-08T20:04:39Z mtl_: well I'm not getting into the gritty details, just trying to illustrate the power of macros to my friend
2017-09-08T20:05:13Z Bike: progn probably isn't a good example. how about a good old with- macro.
2017-09-08T20:06:06Z pjb: (defmacro progn (&body body) `(locally nil ,@body)) ; if you're lazy.
2017-09-08T20:07:11Z pjb: You probably need to insert this nil in your lambdas too to disable declarations in  the body.
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2017-09-08T20:08:35Z phoe: uh
2017-09-08T20:08:45Z phoe: why are we defining explicit progns with implicit progns again?
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2017-09-08T20:09:08Z mtl_: he already knowns some with- macros
2017-09-08T20:09:41Z mtl_: he's reading practical common lisp
2017-09-08T20:10:52Z phoe: you could dig ppcre and trivia. they both generate complicated code at macroexpansion time to save up on cycles during runtime
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2017-09-08T20:11:26Z mtl_: I was just explaining how even some of the special forms(like LET) could be macros
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2017-09-08T20:11:58Z phoe: LET, a macro?
2017-09-08T20:12:21Z phoe: hm
2017-09-08T20:12:49Z pjb: Sure. You can implement everything in lambda calculus, so you can expand everything to lambdas.
2017-09-08T20:12:58Z Bike: in scheme let is a macro in terms of lambda. it's more difficult in lisp due to declarations and speciald and stuff.
2017-09-08T20:13:05Z Bike: well, let* is rather.
2017-09-08T20:13:07Z Bike: been a while
2017-09-08T20:13:11Z pjb: See also: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2017-09-08T20:13:40Z mtl_: yeah you can turn it into  a lambda function call with all the names being arguments to the lambda
2017-09-08T20:13:55Z mtl_: that one is rather simply, ignoring various common lisp quirks
2017-09-08T20:14:09Z mtl_: simple*
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2017-09-08T20:31:16Z emaczen: I am actually curious about finding out how much memory an object is using
2017-09-08T20:31:17Z minion: emaczen, memo from jasom: you don't need to know the size of anything for searching a B-Tree; you only need to know the position of the child nodes.
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2017-09-08T20:32:22Z phoe: emaczen: ask on implementation-specific channels.
2017-09-08T20:32:45Z emaczen: phoe: this wouldn't be the place to ask for SBL?
2017-09-08T20:32:46Z emaczen: SBCL?
2017-09-08T20:32:55Z Bike: well, no, there is #sbcl for a reason.
2017-09-08T20:33:00Z Bike: anyway. it might not be a conherent quantity.
2017-09-08T20:33:22Z emaczen: ahh
2017-09-08T20:34:47Z phoe: emaczen: for very implementation-specific stuff, implementations have their own channels.
2017-09-08T20:35:31Z emaczen: I just never thought of it being implementation specific
2017-09-08T20:35:46Z emaczen: phoe: I'll just experiment
2017-09-08T20:37:06Z Bike: how would it not be implementation specific?
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2017-09-08T20:38:08Z Bike: sizeof is implementation specific in C (which is why it exists), and C has a lot more restrictions on memory than lisp does
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2017-09-08T20:39:54Z emaczen: Bike: Is it completely unreasonable for language designers to enforce memory restrictions in their standards?
2017-09-08T20:40:24Z Shinmera: CL has no notion of memory, as far as I know.
2017-09-08T20:42:21Z Bike: it's not completely unreasonable, but imposing perfect restrictions of "this object takes up N bytes" wouldn't be very reasonable either, for almost all applications.
2017-09-08T20:43:52Z Bike: first off it's usually pointless, and secondly the language would be obsolete as soon as a new system with differently aligned loads or something appears.
2017-09-08T20:44:01Z Bike: and no, CL doesn't have memory.
2017-09-08T20:44:31Z Shinmera: Plus forcing memory constraints eliminates a good class of potential optimisations an implementation could do.
2017-09-08T20:44:42Z emaczen: Bike: It could be a parameterized description
2017-09-08T20:45:00Z emaczen: Shinmera: You are a SBCL dev right?
2017-09-08T20:45:03Z Shinmera: No
2017-09-08T20:45:12Z Bike: parametrized?
2017-09-08T20:45:27Z Bike: like what, "a word is some implementation defined number of bytes, and a cons is two words"?
2017-09-08T20:46:18Z emaczen: Bike: nvm, I'm just going to experiment, call (room) use :space 3 and see how much memory I am using up
2017-09-08T20:47:24Z Bike: reasons to need an exact memory layout include understanding resource usage of a program and communicating with systems that are that exact, and... that's all i got off the top of my head
2017-09-08T20:47:35Z Bike: i don't think either of those justify anything very strict
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2017-09-08T20:48:33Z emaczen: Bike: gotchya
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2017-09-08T21:06:41Z jasom: emaczen: also for a database like b-tree usually you store your index separately from your data, so your values are just offsets into the data file.  In any event, you should create your own fixed-sized layout for your tree nodes, since the whole point of a B-Tree is to use disk-friendly node sizes
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2017-09-08T21:07:42Z jasom: emaczen: if the underlying file system uses fixed logical block sizes, that makes sense, since logical blocks will be contiguous in LBA space (which usually means fast reads)
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2017-09-08T21:16:07Z pjb: emaczen: In general the O(.) in space of each object is not implementation specific, but the constant factors are.
2017-09-08T21:16:44Z pjb: emaczen: eg. a (vector t n) takes O(n) memory slots.
2017-09-08T21:17:09Z pjb: Now, it may be 8*n+4 bytes, or 4*n+8 bytes, or 4*n+2 bytes or whatever…
2017-09-08T21:17:30Z pjb: The very important question, is why would you care about the constant factors?
2017-09-08T21:17:51Z pjb: Shinmera: there's still (ROOM) and (ROOM t).
2017-09-08T21:18:42Z Shinmera: pjb: Well, room just prints stuff about "internal storage and management".
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2017-09-08T21:32:52Z pjb: storage = memory.
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2017-09-08T22:21:27Z pillton: tjb Bike: I'm not sure I follow. Jasom's interpretation of that part the CLHS makes it possible for a compiler to inline a function or use a different entry point to the function.
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2017-09-08T22:24:35Z pillton: I'm fine with performing optimizations on one function given an analysis of the operators it calls.
2017-09-08T22:25:54Z jasom: pillton: it's a compromise betweeb efficiency and dynamicsm; by default require people to recompile a single file (i.e. C-c C-k in slime), which is pretty quick when making changes while developing, but give people a way to make functions freely redfinable (via the declare)
2017-09-08T22:27:30Z jasom: recompiling a single file has been a typical way of making changes going back to the 70s at least, so they don't want to break that, but they do want to leave room for the compiler to optimize.
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2017-09-08T22:28:58Z Bike: pillton: you can't do any analysis of the operators it calls if they can be redefined arbitrarily
2017-09-08T22:30:42Z pillton: That is what that part of the CLHS is referring to.
2017-09-08T22:31:01Z pillton: My question concerns the silent inlining.
2017-09-08T22:32:22Z Bike: "silent inlining"? but yes, it makes inlining and such possible
2017-09-08T22:32:30Z pillton: ...or the invocation of a function which is "local" to the compiled file.
2017-09-08T22:33:36Z pillton: Inlining without being requested to inline.
2017-09-08T22:35:01Z Bike: that's allowed, sure. is that a problem?
2017-09-08T22:35:44Z jasom: pillton: the compiler will also do dead code elimination without being requested to... in general most optimizations are not explicitly requested by the user
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2017-09-08T22:38:56Z pjb: jasom: I think it's more linked to the way separate compilation generates independently linkable modules.  So internal references are resolved by the compiler (by direct jumps or inlining), while external references go thru the linker symbolic tables, the equivalent of lisp symbols.
2017-09-08T22:39:39Z jasom: pjb: I don't think so since traditional lisp systems didn't work that way, and function definitions can be moved around in memory
2017-09-08T22:39:45Z pjb: Bike: in any case, analysis requires global knowledge of the program: it could as well redefine all the functions in a file!
2017-09-08T22:39:52Z pjb: … at runtime.
2017-09-08T22:40:35Z pjb: jasom: were there files on lisp machines? just kidding, but I mean unix may have strongly influenced this part of the design of the language.
2017-09-08T22:40:57Z pjb: unix and other systems such as multics, etc.
2017-09-08T22:41:28Z pjb: As soon as you have a linker, you have this distinction between internal references compiled in directly, and the references across modules, resolved by the linker.
2017-09-08T22:42:10Z Bike: if it redefines all the functions in the compilation unit, any optimizations in the previous versions are gone with the functions, so no big
2017-09-08T22:42:14Z jasom: pjb: I maintain that it is unrelated to unix style linking, but am willing to be proven wrong.  There should be notes somwhere on why this was decided upon.
2017-09-08T22:42:25Z pillton: jasom: The dead code elimination is interesting i.e. (ecase (my-func ...) ...)
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2017-09-08T22:45:00Z pillton: I assumed you could only eliminate code in that example according to an ftype declaration present in the environment.
2017-09-08T22:46:40Z Bike: you can do (funcall 'my-func ...) and that will pretty much kill any analysis
2017-09-08T22:46:58Z Bike: i guess an explicit "this form is wild" annotation could be nice, but in practice it seems okay
2017-09-08T22:50:22Z pillton: You can declare it notline.
2017-09-08T22:50:34Z pillton: notinline*.
2017-09-08T22:50:43Z pillton has only started his second coffee.
2017-09-08T22:51:07Z Bike: i think that might technically allow dead code elimination of the kind you imply. dunno
2017-09-08T22:52:24Z pillton: I will have to ponder this again the next time I use trace.
2017-09-08T22:53:29Z Bike: maybe not
2017-09-08T22:53:44Z Bike: it could be kind of a hostile thing for the implementation to do, maybe
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2017-09-08T22:57:21Z pillton: I like the interactivity we have. I am far more productive because of it.
2017-09-08T22:57:44Z jasom: yes it allows DCE of the kind implied.
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2017-09-08T22:58:38Z pillton: Anyhow, I should work. Great discussion. Thank you all.
2017-09-08T22:58:49Z jasom: I just always use C-c C-k, but you can use notinline as well.  Also no sane implementation would do these optimizations when you set (debug 3) (speed 0), so that's another option
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2017-09-08T23:12:36Z dim: Travis Builds Are Green, red roses too, ... what a wonderful world ;-)
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2017-09-09T03:00:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-09T03:03:08Z akkad is now known as Ober
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2017-09-09T03:05:45Z didi: You know... I miss having a COND clause that I could use the result of `test-form', e.g. (cond ((test-form) => (use test-form-result)))
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2017-09-09T03:06:49Z beach: didi: You could use anaphoric COND from On Lisp.
2017-09-09T03:07:00Z didi should read On Lisp
2017-09-09T03:07:04Z didi: beach: Thank you.
2017-09-09T03:08:10Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-09T03:18:14Z stylewarning: I did a lisp optimization tutorial at work today
2017-09-09T03:18:53Z beach: Oh?  What kind of tutorial?
2017-09-09T03:18:57Z stylewarning: At which people were amazed that a few carefully chosen optimizations made code 50x faster without sacrificing code quality.
2017-09-09T03:19:13Z beach: Oh, you held one, to others?
2017-09-09T03:19:57Z stylewarning: Mostly techniques in Common Lisp for identifying areas ripe for optimization, and how to do that
2017-09-09T03:20:00Z stylewarning: Yes me
2017-09-09T03:20:29Z beach: So you work with Common Lisp and with other people who use Common Lisp?
2017-09-09T03:20:36Z stylewarning: Yes of course!
2017-09-09T03:20:59Z beach: I guess I missed that information.
2017-09-09T03:21:29Z stylewarning: I thought it might have been implicit in me hiring folks for CL work
2017-09-09T03:21:55Z beach: Yes, it is just too early in the morning for me to think clearly.  Sorry.
2017-09-09T03:22:01Z JuanDaugherty eagerly looks at log
2017-09-09T03:22:35Z stylewarning: I'll be happy to advertise a couple full-time positions soon.
2017-09-09T03:22:55Z beach: stylewarning: For a moment, I couldn't remember who you are.  Sorry again.
2017-09-09T03:23:10Z beach should not utter anything before his first coffee intake.
2017-09-09T03:23:33Z stylewarning: beach, your compsci book is on my desk. Someone asked why it's so thin.
2017-09-09T03:23:43Z beach: Heh!
2017-09-09T03:23:54Z stylewarning: And folks are confusing your name for mine
2017-09-09T03:24:07Z beach: Yes, I can see that.
2017-09-09T03:27:16Z beach: stylewarning: Did you and jackdaniel find any grounds for collaboration?
2017-09-09T03:27:55Z stylewarning: The answer is "probably yes". Working out some details now since I came back from vacation
2017-09-09T03:28:20Z beach: Good.
2017-09-09T03:32:30Z beach: stylewarning: I suppose you read the paper by Didier Verna about beating C?
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2017-09-09T03:33:53Z stylewarning: Yes of course. I'd argue things are a little more nuanced than what he presented (in my opinion, IIRC)
2017-09-09T03:34:50Z beach: That's possible.  But I like his work.
2017-09-09T03:36:19Z stylewarning: It's good but any C coder reading the paper would find it unconvincing.
2017-09-09T03:37:05Z beach: Interesting.  I should read it from the point of view of a C coder.
2017-09-09T03:38:21Z stylewarning: For instance, consider extending his pixel problem to be an array of structs of RGB values
2017-09-09T03:38:43Z beach: I see what you mean.
2017-09-09T03:40:02Z stylewarning: Idiomatic Lisp would be a simple array of structs. You could write special accessors into a specialized array of floats that emulates a flat array of structs. You could even construct a struct when you pull the array out.
2017-09-09T03:40:39Z stylewarning: You could even remember a pointer to the array the struct came out of so you could setf the struct to transparently setf the array
2017-09-09T03:41:20Z beach: A bit involved, but probably a must if you need that level of optimization.
2017-09-09T03:41:57Z stylewarning: I would guess that even with all of that involvement, none of it will likely beat some SIMD craziness if a flat array of structs in C.
2017-09-09T03:42:24Z beach: Yes, I can see that.
2017-09-09T03:42:49Z stylewarning: (One of my long term goals is to think about CL extensions to give you some of that additional power.)
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2017-09-09T03:44:56Z stylewarning: (Franz did some stuff like this and has a YouTube presentation about it. https://youtu.be/S7nEZ3TuFpA Not quite what I want. I want primitives for pinning objects and getting pointers basically.)
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2017-09-09T03:47:00Z BW^-: Is there any implementation of the Ramalingam 1996 shortest path graph algorithm?
2017-09-09T03:47:38Z BW^-: https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-graph hm
2017-09-09T03:48:17Z aeth: stylewarning: Sounds like you have a lot of similar goals as the Lisp games community.
2017-09-09T03:48:19Z BW^-: not good
2017-09-09T03:48:53Z stylewarning: aeth: Probably true. I could see why this stuff is relevant for games.
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2017-09-09T03:59:14Z mfiano: I would not say that aeth. We've told you time and again, most of a game is not even on the CPU. SIMD is nice, but unless you are doing some crazy physics simulations, a typical game will be using a very small percentage of your processing power.
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2017-09-09T04:02:33Z Bike: oh, hey, array of structs in lisp?
2017-09-09T04:02:51Z stylewarning: I'll complain about it at least once a month!
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2017-09-09T04:04:05Z aeth: mfiano: And I've said repeatedly that that common wisdom only applies to graphics-heavy, AAA games that no one here is making and that simulation-heavy CPU games (not even necessarily physics simulations) can still definitely live on the CPU.
2017-09-09T04:04:43Z Bike: like what?
2017-09-09T04:05:14Z mfiano: Which puts you in the domain of your statement, not the lispgames community. You are the only one I know of that spends years optimizing low level game math rather than making anything remotely like a game.
2017-09-09T04:05:36Z aeth: RTSes and building games (especially the subgenre of building games with stockpiles) can still fill the CPU.
2017-09-09T04:06:18Z Bike: really? at human speed i'd expect the AI and stuff to be fairly slow
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2017-09-09T04:06:46Z stylewarning: I don't know about this game stuff I just want math to be fast
2017-09-09T04:07:25Z Bike: reasonable
2017-09-09T04:07:36Z aeth: Bike: the problem with building games is you can have hundreds or thousands of units doing things at once, on the CPU
2017-09-09T04:08:03Z mfiano: This is atypical
2017-09-09T04:08:30Z aeth: typical for any game that has the concept of a stockpile ime
2017-09-09T04:09:18Z Bike: i don't even know what a "stockpile" is
2017-09-09T04:09:26Z mfiano: None of us do
2017-09-09T04:09:27Z Bike: like your vespene gas level?
2017-09-09T04:09:31Z aeth: resource stockpile that many, many workers bring resources to
2017-09-09T04:09:35Z mfiano: He's in his own world and speaks for everyone, sigh
2017-09-09T04:09:38Z stylewarning: Bike: :)
2017-09-09T04:10:11Z Bike: stylewarning: anyway, i'm probably going to try to add arrays of structs to clasp at some point. we need it for chemistry stuff.
2017-09-09T04:10:22Z Bike: and i... don't THINK it's much of an extension to the standard, at least
2017-09-09T04:10:39Z stylewarning: I think the hard part is AREFing
2017-09-09T04:10:50Z stylewarning: And what to do with that reference
2017-09-09T04:11:08Z Bike: it's "unboxed", in my view
2017-09-09T04:11:20Z stylewarning: The semantics of that reference, it's out-of-line modification, storage, identification on the heap
2017-09-09T04:11:20Z Bike: which is whatever, but means the only thing you can do with it are slot accesses
2017-09-09T04:11:28Z Bike: anything else boxes it, which means allocating a heap object
2017-09-09T04:11:30Z Bike: and copying
2017-09-09T04:11:57Z stylewarning: Can you add it to SBCL too? (:
2017-09-09T04:12:20Z Bike: if they haven't by now maybe they have a reason.
2017-09-09T04:13:01Z aeth: stylewarning: What I've been doing is retrieving and setting multiple values in 2D arrays, and covering up that messiness with macros.
2017-09-09T04:13:32Z Bike: doesn't work if it's heterogenuous, does it?
2017-09-09T04:13:37Z aeth: No.
2017-09-09T04:14:38Z aeth: So it's not optimal if there are multiple types
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2017-09-09T04:15:41Z aeth: I mostly deal with single-floats and fixnums, though.
2017-09-09T04:15:46Z stylewarning: Aeth, the most reasonable way I've found to hack it is to just internally allocate as a struct of arrays
2017-09-09T04:16:04Z stylewarning: And cover that with functions/macros
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2017-09-09T04:18:58Z stylewarning: (To allow for heterogeneity)
2017-09-09T04:19:59Z aeth: stylewarning: example?
2017-09-09T04:23:02Z stylewarning: Just a macro DEFSTRUCT-ARRAY that's like DEFSTRUCT but the accessor takes an integer N
2017-09-09T04:23:16Z stylewarning: and constructor
2017-09-09T04:25:28Z Bike: yeah, maybe something i should prioritize... dealing with gc might be annoying, but so it goes
2017-09-09T04:30:48Z aeth: stylewarning: so a struct with multiple arrays of size N, right?
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2017-09-09T04:32:09Z vtomole: Whats the difference between a symbol and a variable?
2017-09-09T04:32:30Z Bike: symbols name variables
2017-09-09T04:34:09Z vtomole: So anytime a variable is created, that symbol is stored in the environment along with it's value? Are function names also "variables"?
2017-09-09T04:37:10Z Bike: what do you mean by "creating" a variable
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2017-09-09T04:46:29Z vtomole: When you do (defparameter a 2)
2017-09-09T04:46:41Z vtomole: Does defparameter create a symbol a?
2017-09-09T04:46:58Z Bike: the symbol is created by the reader
2017-09-09T04:47:21Z Bike: if you do (second (read-from-string "(defparameter a 2)")), you'll get A, even though the defparameter is not actually executed
2017-09-09T04:52:59Z vtomole: So read creates the symbols. If I do (Defun square (x) (* x x)). Is square a variable or a symbol? What is the difference?
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2017-09-09T04:54:01Z vtomole: I know its a lambda expression with a name, but how is that name set?
2017-09-09T04:54:20Z Bike: something like (setf (fdefinition 'square) (lambda (x) (* x x)))
2017-09-09T04:54:37Z Bike: and (defparameter a 2) is similarly similar to (setf (symbol-value 'a) 2)
2017-09-09T04:54:56Z Bike: toplevel bindings work like that, but not lexical ones, note.
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2017-09-09T04:55:17Z vtomole: whoa. cool.
2017-09-09T04:56:43Z vtomole: But "square" and "a" are both symbols, it's just that one points to a variable and another points to a lambda expression. Is that the correct type of thinking?
2017-09-09T04:57:04Z Bike: points to a function, but yeah.
2017-09-09T04:57:47Z vtomole: functions and lambda expressions are different?
2017-09-09T04:58:11Z beach: vtomole: Technically, a lambda expression is data.
2017-09-09T04:58:14Z beach: Just code.
2017-09-09T04:58:22Z beach: It has to be evaluated to become a function.
2017-09-09T04:58:28Z White_Flame: a "function" generally implies a named function, vernacularly
2017-09-09T04:58:42Z White_Flame: ie, a symbol which is associated to a code body
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2017-09-09T04:59:45Z beach: vtomole: Check the glossary entry for "lambda expression" in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2017-09-09T05:00:07Z vtomole: "A function is a symbol that points to a lambda expression" how about that?
2017-09-09T05:00:25Z White_Flame: the function isn't the symbol, though
2017-09-09T05:00:30Z Bike: no
2017-09-09T05:00:35Z beach: vtomole: No, a function is a first-class Common Lisp object that can be called.
2017-09-09T05:00:49Z White_Flame: it's the pairing of a symbol and a function object, in the case of a named function
2017-09-09T05:01:01Z beach: A function has nothing to do with a symbol.
2017-09-09T05:01:08Z beach: Some functions are anonymous.
2017-09-09T05:01:11Z White_Flame: and that pairing might be fdefinition, or it might be lexical with flet/labels
2017-09-09T05:01:16Z vtomole: Oh.
2017-09-09T05:01:23Z beach: A function is just a first-class Common Lisp object.
2017-09-09T05:01:54Z beach: Again, check the glossary.
2017-09-09T05:02:01Z White_Flame: macros, closures, etc are also implemented with function objects
2017-09-09T05:02:04Z beach: function n. 1. an object representing code, which can be called with zero or more arguments, and which produces zero or more values. 2. an object of type function.
2017-09-09T05:02:24Z vtomole: Ah thats why (symbolp #'square) gives me NIL and (functionp #'square) => T
2017-09-09T05:02:33Z beach: vtomole: Right.
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2017-09-09T05:03:10Z vtomole: Thanks everyone.
2017-09-09T05:03:14Z White_Flame: (symbolp (function square)) and (functionp (function square)) to be explicit
2017-09-09T05:03:30Z White_Flame: since that's what #' expands to
2017-09-09T05:04:24Z vtomole: Yeah cause read macro
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2017-09-09T05:04:45Z White_Flame: and it's technically not "the function SQUARE", but "the function named by SQUARE"
2017-09-09T05:05:55Z vtomole: hmm (read) (functionp #'square) gives me (FUNCTIONP #'SQUARE)
2017-09-09T05:06:21Z Bike: read just reads, it doesn't do anything
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2017-09-09T05:06:36Z Bike: (read-from-string "(1 2 3)") => (1 2 3)
2017-09-09T05:07:03Z vtomole: Where are the read macros expanded? Not in read?
2017-09-09T05:07:09Z Bike: in read
2017-09-09T05:07:17Z Bike: the #' you get back is just pretty printing
2017-09-09T05:07:24Z vtomole: Ah
2017-09-09T05:07:42Z Bike: (first (second (read-from-string "(functionp #'square)"))) => FUNCTION
2017-09-09T05:08:01Z White_Flame: (car '#'square) => FUNCTION
2017-09-09T05:08:14Z White_Flame: that extra ' quotes the entire (function square)
2017-09-09T05:08:29Z vtomole: heh. Awesome!
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2017-09-09T05:09:36Z White_Flame: you can also (setf *print-pretty* nil) and see everything raw
2017-09-09T05:09:59Z White_Flame: then the (read) would return (FUNCTIONP (FUNCTION SQUARE))
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2017-09-09T05:33:19Z jmercouris: hello everyone, let's say given the string "hcpr", and the other string "helicopter" what kind of mechanism could I use in lisp to identify that the sequence of characters "hcpr" appear in order in the string "helicopter"?
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2017-09-09T05:33:48Z jmercouris: i was thinking about using regex something like h*c*p*r where * represents one or more arbitrary chars
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2017-09-09T05:34:14Z beach: Sounds good.
2017-09-09T05:34:28Z beach: h.*c.*p.*r
2017-09-09T05:34:51Z Bike: is helicccccopter okay?
2017-09-09T05:35:21Z jmercouris: Bike: yes
2017-09-09T05:35:41Z Bike: yeah, regex is fine then
2017-09-09T05:35:55Z jmercouris: in that case, suggestions on regex library?
2017-09-09T05:35:57Z Bike: how about helircopter?
2017-09-09T05:36:00Z Bike: ppcre
2017-09-09T05:36:09Z jmercouris: what about this one? https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match
2017-09-09T05:36:41Z jmercouris: ppcre seems really good for regex, but this cl-string-match also has some cool features i could just drop in for more sophisticated matching
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2017-09-09T06:07:50Z jmercouris: when you print a cl char representation what is the #\ for?
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2017-09-09T06:09:23Z beach: clhs #\
2017-09-09T06:09:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dha.htm
2017-09-09T06:09:54Z beach: jmercouris: So that the reader can recognize it as a character object.
2017-09-09T06:10:03Z jmercouris: interesting, thank you for the info
2017-09-09T06:10:09Z beach: ... as the external representation of a character object, I should have said.
2017-09-09T06:10:15Z jmercouris: oh koay
2017-09-09T06:10:17Z beach: Anytime.
2017-09-09T06:10:18Z jmercouris: i was just about to ask that
2017-09-09T06:10:31Z jmercouris: so basically what i wanted to do was iterate char by char and make a string appending the regex to do matching
2017-09-09T06:10:38Z jmercouris: and i was wondering if the #\ would cause me problems
2017-09-09T06:10:56Z beach: It doesn't exist internally.
2017-09-09T06:11:17Z beach: Internally, you have character objects.
2017-09-09T06:11:27Z jmercouris: I see
2017-09-09T06:11:43Z beach: When the reader sees #\ it creates such an object, and when the printer sees such an object, it prints #\.
2017-09-09T06:12:05Z jmercouris: okay I see
2017-09-09T06:12:13Z jmercouris: and how would you suggest then I go about adding this regex
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2017-09-09T06:12:41Z jmercouris: I'm thinking of what the best way to build up the string is without doing a ton of concactenation
2017-09-09T06:13:01Z jmercouris: my first instinct is a dolist, but there must be a way to do it with map
2017-09-09T06:13:24Z beach: You can build a string either by using an adjustable string and adding characters to the end, or you can use a string stream.
2017-09-09T06:13:29Z beach: clhs make-array
2017-09-09T06:13:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2017-09-09T06:13:53Z beach: If you use make-array with a fill pointer and with element-type 'character, you get such a string.
2017-09-09T06:14:03Z beach: clhs with-output-to-string
2017-09-09T06:14:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
2017-09-09T06:14:20Z jmercouris: so you're telling me, lisp is like c?
2017-09-09T06:14:29Z jmercouris: i can just make a char array?
2017-09-09T06:14:49Z beach: A string is a vector which is an array.
2017-09-09T06:14:53Z beach: clhs string
2017-09-09T06:14:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm
2017-09-09T06:15:05Z beach: check the system-class entry
2017-09-09T06:15:16Z beach: string, vector, array, sequence, t is the precedence list.
2017-09-09T06:15:46Z jmercouris: man, I always feel so ignorant after asking a question on this channel :D
2017-09-09T06:16:14Z jmercouris: anyways, thank you for the help!
2017-09-09T06:16:16Z beach: Don't worry, that changes over time.  You become more knowledgeable after each anwer.
2017-09-09T06:16:19Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-09T06:46:58Z jmercouris: so I have written the following code to try to do re matching: https://pastebin.com/0xFRmcRP
2017-09-09T06:47:11Z jmercouris: unfortunately, I am getting "#<string-output stream 00000001091361e0> is not of type SEQUENCE."
2017-09-09T06:47:28Z jmercouris: so how do i convert my string-output stream to an actual string?
2017-09-09T06:48:15Z beach: First of all, you probably want your PRINCs to go to the stream, right?
2017-09-09T06:48:26Z jmercouris: yes
2017-09-09T06:48:31Z beach: clhs princ
2017-09-09T06:48:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2017-09-09T06:48:56Z beach: Do you see the &optional output-stream parameter?
2017-09-09T06:49:05Z jmercouris: yes I see that
2017-09-09T06:49:11Z jmercouris: it seems to default to standard output
2017-09-09T06:49:15Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-09T06:49:16Z jmercouris: so I should put stream there, right
2017-09-09T06:49:19Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-09T06:49:34Z beach: clhs with-output-to-string
2017-09-09T06:49:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
2017-09-09T06:49:50Z jmercouris: i've already read it a few times, i can't seem to understand the documentation style yet
2017-09-09T06:50:24Z beach: with-output-to-string returns the resulting string.  That's what you need to use for the match.
2017-09-09T06:50:36Z jmercouris: so i should put it in like a let body or something?
2017-09-09T06:50:40Z beach: (let ((result (with-output....)))
2017-09-09T06:50:44Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-09T06:50:48Z jmercouris: okay that's what i was trying to do
2017-09-09T06:51:06Z jmercouris: well, not in my pastebin, but as we were talking
2017-09-09T06:51:30Z beach: Then (match-re result string-list)
2017-09-09T06:51:36Z beach: .. inside the LET body.
2017-09-09T06:51:43Z jmercouris: right indeed
2017-09-09T06:51:47Z jmercouris: let me give it a try, once again thank you
2017-09-09T06:52:18Z beach: And I would not use DOLIST to iterate over the characters in a string.
2017-09-09T06:52:47Z jmercouris: how would you do it?
2017-09-09T06:52:48Z beach: (loop for char across string do ...)
2017-09-09T06:53:03Z jmercouris: is there a difference in performance or just aesthetic?
2017-09-09T06:53:11Z beach: Huge performance difference.
2017-09-09T06:53:24Z beach: With DOLIST, you first have to convert the string to a list of characters, which involves consiing.
2017-09-09T06:53:27Z beach: consing, even
2017-09-09T06:53:45Z jmercouris: ok, thanks again for your help
2017-09-09T06:53:46Z beach: With LOOP ... ACROSS, you just pick each character out of the string.
2017-09-09T06:54:01Z jmercouris: okay interesting
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2017-09-09T06:54:55Z beach: It may not matter in your case, of course.  But it is also more idiomatic to do it that way.
2017-09-09T06:55:35Z jmercouris: yeah, i'm still trying to learn the "standard" way to do things in lisp
2017-09-09T06:55:49Z beach: It takes some time.
2017-09-09T06:55:54Z jmercouris: i come from a python background where there are very clear "pythonic" guidelines, and since there is nothing like pep8 for lisp, it has left me a bit lacking
2017-09-09T06:56:22Z beach: There are very clear guidelines for Common Lisp.
2017-09-09T06:57:10Z beach: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf is one such document.
2017-09-09T06:57:20Z beach: There are also detailed style guides.
2017-09-09T06:57:23Z pjb: It's not as formally documented as in the PEP.  In lisp, a lot is encoded into the editors and IDEs.
2017-09-09T06:57:42Z pjb: Most of the rules are enforced automatically by paredit and slime in emacs.
2017-09-09T06:57:44Z jmercouris: that's what I was saying, like that's just one guys opinion, i mean a very respected guy, but it's not like an "official" organization
2017-09-09T06:57:51Z beach: But in this particular case, it is just a standard performance question.
2017-09-09T06:58:12Z beach: jmercouris: There is no official organization for Common Lisp.
2017-09-09T06:58:14Z jmercouris: yeah, indeed, i'm just saying in general
2017-09-09T06:58:20Z pjb: jmercouris: there's no official organization, until you create a startup named "Official", and then you will only be able to impose your rules to your employees.
2017-09-09T06:58:44Z jmercouris: well, even if it was something like ansi publishing a list of guidelines, i'd consider that more official
2017-09-09T06:59:03Z beach: ANSI creates standards.  Not guidelines.
2017-09-09T06:59:20Z pjb: jmercouris: the assumption with lisp is that lisp programmers are intelligent.  They're able to not shoot themselves in their foot, and they're free to use their own rules.
2017-09-09T06:59:30Z jmercouris: i'm failing to see the difference between a standard and guideline
2017-09-09T07:00:18Z jack_rabbit: standards are generally concerned with syntax and semantics rather than style.
2017-09-09T07:00:26Z jmercouris: all valid points, I'm just saying it would be nice if there was a "standard set of guidelines" or however the semantically correct way of saying that is, to guide lisp programmers to create code that is consistent
2017-09-09T07:00:33Z beach: jmercouris: A standard for a programming language is an official document that determines exactly what an implementation must or is allowed to do in order to call it an implementation of that language.
2017-09-09T07:00:56Z jmercouris: in this sense, there exists a standard for lisp, but i'm looking for something like pep8, whatever you'd call that
2017-09-09T07:01:34Z jmercouris: apparently it's called a "style guide"
2017-09-09T07:01:39Z beach: jmercouris: No guideline would tell you not to convert a vector to a list before iterating of the elements.  That's just standard programmer knowledge.
2017-09-09T07:02:31Z pjb: jmercouris: there's the CDR as document repostory. https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/  You can write PEP-like documents and publish them there.
2017-09-09T07:03:06Z jmercouris: pjb: interesting l ink
2017-09-09T07:03:16Z beach: jmercouris: The LUV slides that I gave you a URL to is as close to an ANSI guide you can get, given that Kent Pitman is one of the main authors of the standard.
2017-09-09T07:03:18Z jmercouris: beach: I know, I'm just saying in general
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2017-09-09T07:05:23Z beach: jmercouris: Well, you are out of luck, because Common Lisp is a language with an independent published standard, and there is no official organization deciding what you should or should not do with it.  The advantage of that is, of course, that there is no organization that can arbitrarily decide to change what it means for a program to be valid Common Lisp by arbitrarily changing the language definition.
2017-09-09T07:07:01Z beach: jmercouris: And, as I often say in my talks to industry people, a project leader to decides to use a programming language without an independent standard, i.e. a language that can evolve arbitrarily at the whim of some official organization, should be fired.
2017-09-09T07:07:12Z jmercouris: beach: I'm not trying to start a war :D I'm just saying a little more guidance would be nice, most likely my opinion will change as I become more experienced with common lisp, I've only been seriously working with it for about a month
2017-09-09T07:08:10Z jmercouris: beach: I can definitely see the advantages of a completely free language, it's like an "open source" language in a way
2017-09-09T07:08:22Z beach: jmercouris: You are getting hints here.  But the one about converting a vector to a list before iterating over the elements is not a guideline item.  It is common sense, and will be obvious to you when you know more about how the language works.
2017-09-09T07:08:28Z jmercouris: not in a literal open-source sense, but in the fact that it gives you some power as the user
2017-09-09T07:09:20Z beach: jmercouris: I don't even know what an "open-source language" could possibly mean.  One where each person is free to change its definition at any point in time?
2017-09-09T07:09:44Z jmercouris: beach: yeah, that's what i meant
2017-09-09T07:09:57Z beach: "We are using Bob's definition of L.  Are you using Bill's?"
2017-09-09T07:10:11Z beach: Not a good plan for a programming project in my opinion.
2017-09-09T07:10:26Z jmercouris: Probably :D
2017-09-09T07:10:55Z beach: Not to talk about the proliferation of IRC channels #lisp-according-to-bob, #lisp-according-to-bill.  There would be a single person in each channel.
2017-09-09T07:11:00Z beach: Collaboration would be dead.
2017-09-09T07:11:34Z beach: jmercouris: We are very lucky here in #lisp in that there is a well-defined basis for what we are discussing.
2017-09-09T07:12:51Z jmercouris: beach: I can't tell if your humor is very dry, or you are being serious
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2017-09-09T07:13:00Z beach: I am being dead serious.
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2017-09-09T07:13:19Z jmercouris: Alright, got it :D
2017-09-09T07:14:34Z jack_rabbit: Common lisp, in some ways, was constructed in order to solve the problems caused by exactly what you describe: many different and incompatible lisps.
2017-09-09T07:14:38Z beach: jmercouris: The current trend is to confuse "programming language" and "programming system".  If you add to that a single organization (or worse, a single person) with the power of changing the language/system at a whim, you get what ought to be a no-no for any serious programming project.
2017-09-09T07:16:07Z jmercouris: beach: I'm saying that if the language definition is not controlled by anybody, you are free therefore to adopt it or not adopt it, and you won't have to bend to the will of some random corporation
2017-09-09T07:16:14Z beach: jmercouris: So, unless you are just doing hobby programming that you don't mind throwing away at regular intervals as a result of the decisions of some "official organization", I strongly suggest you stay away from such languages/systems, and go for a language with an independent standard, and multiple suppliers of implementations.
2017-09-09T07:16:34Z jmercouris: it's true that there are many possible derivatives that will emerge, but at least a couple of them are bound to be popular enough to have a community to support them
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2017-09-09T07:17:21Z beach: jmercouris: You are contradicting yourself.  On the one hand, you want everyone to be able to change the language definition.  On the other hand, you want the "official guidelines".
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2017-09-09T07:17:44Z jmercouris: beach: I would agree with that for extremely long term projects, or mission critical things, I think it is okay sometimes to use controlled languages when you are locked in. Let's say you are on windows, it would be very advantageous to use C# despite all of the problems you described
2017-09-09T07:18:23Z jmercouris: beach: i'm not contradicting myself, in the python organization, it is an official org, but anyone can join and change the definition through the submission of pep guidelines
2017-09-09T07:18:25Z beach: jmercouris: Plus, it is not forbidden to change the Common Lisp language, even though it has an independent standard.  You just can't claim that the result is a conforming implementation.  I see no restrictions here.
2017-09-09T07:19:07Z jack_rabbit: You just have to call it jmercouris-lisp instead of common-lisp.
2017-09-09T07:19:36Z jmercouris: lol, I'm sure my version would be way worse :P
2017-09-09T07:19:43Z phoe: Lisp is a very different language compared to Python because a) you don't need to submit any pep guidelines to *drastically* change how the language works, b) there is a standard from 1994 that describes what an unmodified language should look like - and that has given Lisp an insane lot of stability since then.
2017-09-09T07:20:14Z jmercouris: I didn't mean to start a religious war guys, sorry if I offended anyone
2017-09-09T07:20:33Z phoe: nah, no religious wars here
2017-09-09T07:20:56Z jack_rabbit: It is amazing to find libraries from decades ago that still load fine today. I don't see that in any other language I've used. Even ones with solid standards.
2017-09-09T07:21:01Z phoe: it's just that, compared to Python, Lisp is apparently self-contradicting
2017-09-09T07:21:02Z beach: jmercouris: The existence of an independent standard is not a constraint.  It is the other way around.  I mean, if you don't like it, just pretend it doesn't exist and do whatever the Python people do.  But if you want to have a precise definition of the language that you can be sure will not be altered, then accept the independent standard.
2017-09-09T07:21:28Z phoe: on one hand you have a standard from 1994 that is 23 freaking years old
2017-09-09T07:21:53Z phoe: on the other hand that standard from 1994 gives you enough power to completely change how the language reads, expands, compiles, runs
2017-09-09T07:22:33Z jmercouris: beach: what is the definition of an independent standard?
2017-09-09T07:22:39Z phoe: so you don't change Lisp by writing submissions of pep guidelines
2017-09-09T07:22:44Z phoe: you change Lisp by writing Lisp
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2017-09-09T07:23:39Z beach: jmercouris: One that is published by an organization that is not the supplier of an implementation, or at least not of the only permitted implementation.  It is also required that this standard be given a unique document number, so that it can be referred to uniquely.
2017-09-09T07:23:59Z jmercouris: beach: but ultimately SOMEBODY somewhere decides what that standard is right?
2017-09-09T07:24:15Z phoe: yep
2017-09-09T07:24:15Z Shinmera: phoe: Considering CLtL1 was published in 1984 and a good bunch of programs were written against that and still work, it's actually even longer.
2017-09-09T07:24:18Z jmercouris: I don't see what the issue therefore is with this SOMEBODY being an organization that publishes guidelines
2017-09-09T07:24:20Z beach: jmercouris: Anybody can publish a standard.
2017-09-09T07:24:43Z jmercouris: right, but why isn't there an organization publishing common lisp standards?
2017-09-09T07:24:54Z phoe: jmercouris: multiple reasons
2017-09-09T07:25:03Z beach: jmercouris: There is one Common Lisp standard.  It was published by ANSI.
2017-09-09T07:25:06Z phoe: 1) ANSI CL has been good enough since then
2017-09-09T07:25:06Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Because a standard without implementations following them is pointless. See CDR.
2017-09-09T07:25:26Z phoe: 2) nobody has done it yet
2017-09-09T07:25:58Z phoe: 3) some people have thrown ideas of how Lisp *could* look like, but these have not been widely adopted
2017-09-09T07:26:06Z phoe: s/how/what/
2017-09-09T07:26:13Z jmercouris: phoe: are you referring to those like "modification" packages?
2017-09-09T07:26:25Z jmercouris: phoe: that supposedely "modernize" common lisp
2017-09-09T07:26:59Z phoe: jmercouris: cl21, cltl3
2017-09-09T07:27:29Z beach: jmercouris: The ANSI standard is an excellent basis.  Any additional functionality can be (and is) handled by additional libraries.
2017-09-09T07:27:57Z beach: jmercouris: Because Common Lisp has Common Lisp macros, libraries can also supply new syntax, which is impossible in most other languages.
2017-09-09T07:28:36Z jmercouris: I see why on a very technical level it is not "necessary"
2017-09-09T07:29:06Z phoe: but what beach said, you don't need to change the standard to modify the language - you don't publish new standards, you publish new libs, which is a drastic difference compared elsewhere. Lisp isn't changed, Lisp is grown.
2017-09-09T07:29:08Z jmercouris: I mean, I get that, I just don't see what the issue would be there was a comittee responsible for evolving the language over time
2017-09-09T07:29:21Z Shinmera: Again, people need to implement it
2017-09-09T07:29:26Z Shinmera: If nobody cares to, it's pointless.
2017-09-09T07:29:27Z jmercouris: so is the idea for backwards compatibility?
2017-09-09T07:29:34Z Shinmera: CL exists because a lot of companies wanted to be on board.
2017-09-09T07:29:34Z jmercouris: so one doesn't have to make new implementations?
2017-09-09T07:29:47Z Shinmera: They paid a lot of money to get the standard made, in hopes that it'll save them from future monetary losses.
2017-09-09T07:30:03Z jmercouris: Shinmera: did it work?
2017-09-09T07:30:17Z phoe: I guess, Lisp is still alive and kicking, both in the commercial and non-commercial world
2017-09-09T07:30:22Z Shinmera: Well, some of them are still around.
2017-09-09T07:30:30Z beach: jmercouris: You should ask Franz and LispWorks.
2017-09-09T07:30:41Z phoe: old libs and programs are used and maintained, new libs and programs are grown
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2017-09-09T07:31:19Z beach: jmercouris: Many people here are very happy that there is not an arbitrary committee, company, or organization deciding to make their programs non-conforming at a whim.
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2017-09-09T07:32:04Z jmercouris: I think I am starting to understand
2017-09-09T07:32:33Z jmercouris: basically the secret sauce is the defmacro, because no need to invent new forms or syntax that are adopted by an implementation, you can just make a lib that supports it
2017-09-09T07:32:47Z phoe: one of the secret sauces, yes
2017-09-09T07:32:48Z jmercouris: this also allows you to change how you use the language, and allow you to use code from as far back into the past as you like
2017-09-09T07:32:56Z beach: jmercouris: Exactly.
2017-09-09T07:33:05Z phoe: you can go even more saucy with reader macros
2017-09-09T07:33:13Z beach: jmercouris: Also, the excellent customization that can be done with CLOS.
2017-09-09T07:33:21Z phoe: which change not the way your Lisp syntax works
2017-09-09T07:33:27Z Shinmera: There are some things that genuinely need implementation changes to do in a way that's not horrendous, and you'll find people lamenting those things in here if you stick around long enough.
2017-09-09T07:33:30Z phoe: but change the way your *general* syntax works
2017-09-09T07:33:59Z jmercouris: phoe: interesting, i'll have to read about those, for now, i'm just struggling to learn the basics
2017-09-09T07:34:09Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, like package aliases.
2017-09-09T07:34:11Z phoe: so you can do crazy stuff like (with-c-syntax:with-c-syntax () #{ format (t, "Hello World!"); }#)
2017-09-09T07:34:19Z phoe: or (with-c-syntax:with-c-syntax () #{ int i, sum = 0; for (i = 0; i <= 100; ++ i ) sum += i; return sum; }#)
2017-09-09T07:34:37Z beach: phoe: My implementation of MetaFont is an example.
2017-09-09T07:34:42Z phoe: and sure, this is conforming Common Lisp + libraries
2017-09-09T07:34:57Z phoe: beach: show me that one
2017-09-09T07:34:59Z beach: ... part of MetaFont, rather.
2017-09-09T07:35:08Z beach: Let me whip up an example...
2017-09-09T07:35:15Z jmercouris: link?
2017-09-09T07:35:18Z phoe: by the way, I'm still before reading your debugger paper - I'll do it soon
2017-09-09T07:36:02Z beach: No rush.
2017-09-09T07:37:28Z beach: http://metamodular.com/tie.lisp
2017-09-09T07:37:46Z beach: Notice the ++, --, cycle
2017-09-09T07:38:04Z beach: Those are MetaFont constructs.
2017-09-09T07:39:17Z jmercouris: beach: are you robert strandh?
2017-09-09T07:39:29Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-09T07:39:35Z beach: Better example: http://metamodular.com/path.lisp
2017-09-09T07:39:52Z beach: Notice the up, right, tension, etc.
2017-09-09T07:40:05Z jmercouris: beach: thats crazy, i was on your website earlier today
2017-09-09T07:40:33Z phoe: it's pretty possible :P
2017-09-09T07:40:49Z beach: jmercouris: "beach" is just a literal translation into English of "Strand" (the `h' is added for kicks).
2017-09-09T07:40:57Z jmercouris: ja ich weiss
2017-09-09T07:40:59Z phoe: beach uploads a lot of good Lisp stuff.
2017-09-09T07:41:06Z phoe: I need to run - back soon.
2017-09-09T07:41:10Z beach: Take care.
2017-09-09T07:41:21Z phoe: You too.
2017-09-09T07:41:37Z phoe: jmercouris: good luck and have fun
2017-09-09T07:41:54Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks!
2017-09-09T07:42:03Z jmercouris: beach: this is where I found your site: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM
2017-09-09T07:42:16Z beach: Oh, that one.  Sure.
2017-09-09T07:43:35Z beach: Speaking of McCLIM, the video of Masamune has been published.
2017-09-09T07:43:52Z beach: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6yuajg/lisp_machine_rides_again/
2017-09-09T07:43:59Z phoe: ^
2017-09-09T07:44:11Z beach: It gives a good idea of what can be done with McCLIM.
2017-09-09T07:44:19Z phoe: this is McCLIM that's been used to recreate environment like the ones of ye olde Lisp Machines
2017-09-09T07:44:31Z phoe: except on modern x86_64 Linux
2017-09-09T07:44:41Z jmercouris: beach: yeah, i saw that link on reddit, you'll see i also commented with my project i'm working on
2017-09-09T07:44:55Z beach: OK.
2017-09-09T07:45:59Z jmercouris: you'd probably laugh at my code :D
2017-09-09T07:47:07Z phoe: he'd rather give you a code review
2017-09-09T07:47:47Z jmercouris: phoe: oh jeez, not sure my self esteem could handle how many mistakes I have :D
2017-09-09T07:48:34Z phoe: jmercouris: it's a part of programmer enlightenment. if your ego prevents you from acknowledging how much you don't know, then it'll be a very successful ego indeed
2017-09-09T07:48:57Z phoe: but you won't be a very successful programmer
2017-09-09T07:49:09Z jmercouris: phoe: nah, I'm 100% joking, I've been programming ~10 years now, the computer has taught me how dumb I am :P
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2017-09-09T07:51:05Z phoe: <3
2017-09-09T07:56:54Z beach: jmercouris: In case you are interested in McCLIM, some of us hang out in the #clim channel.
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2017-09-09T08:01:12Z jmercouris: beach: maybe when I'm more comfortable with the language
2017-09-09T08:01:21Z beach: OK, just saying.
2017-09-09T08:01:27Z jmercouris: thanks :)
2017-09-09T08:03:17Z Shinmera: hjudt: I've made some changes to the tutorial to address the concerns you had. Thanks again for the feedback!
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2017-09-09T08:45:41Z beach: In Cleavir, I am tempted to turn LET into a macro that generates a lambda form.
2017-09-09T08:47:06Z beach: Normally, I would avoid it, because error messages can then be confusing, but now that I will have source tracking, I imagine the error messages will be in terms of locations in the source code, so that it will be obvious what code created the problem.
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2017-09-09T08:49:40Z beach: Similarly, I can turn LET* into nested LETs, as long as I am careful to parse the declarations ans move them around as appropriate.
2017-09-09T08:50:54Z beach: By doing it that way, the logic for handling new environments, for binding the parameters (lexical or special) will exist in one single place.
2017-09-09T08:52:52Z beach: [without a dangling participle:] By doing it that way, I can have the logic for handling new environments, for binding the parameters (lexical or special) in one single place.
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2017-09-09T09:04:48Z beach: Besides, the same problem of emitting good error messages exists already because of macros.
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2017-09-09T09:18:09Z oleo: (defmacro without-warnings (&rest body)
2017-09-09T09:18:11Z oleo:   `(eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
2017-09-09T09:18:13Z oleo:     (handler-bind
2017-09-09T09:18:14Z oleo:     ((sb-kernel:redefinition-warning #'muffle-warning)
2017-09-09T09:18:15Z oleo:      (sb-kernel:uninteresting-redefinition #'muffle-warning)
2017-09-09T09:18:17Z oleo:      (sb-kernel:redefinition-with-defmethod #'muffle-warning)
2017-09-09T09:18:19Z oleo:      (warning #'muffle-warning)
2017-09-09T09:18:20Z oleo:      (style-warning #'muffle-warning)
2017-09-09T09:18:21Z oleo:      (sb-ext:compiler-note #'muffle-warning)) ,@body)))
2017-09-09T09:18:23Z oleo: this works
2017-09-09T09:18:25Z oleo: it's not declarations
2017-09-09T09:19:27Z oleo: (without-warnings (load-file "classes7.lisp")) -> no warnings :)
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2017-09-09T09:20:20Z oleo: and i don't have to put those declarations and muffle-stuff into each file either now
2017-09-09T09:23:47Z oleo: macro forms cannot expand into declarations. declare expressins must appear as actual subexpressions of the form to which they refer
2017-09-09T09:24:40Z oleo: so what it means is top-it-up one level down
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2017-09-09T09:26:16Z phoe: oleo: paste.lisp.org pls
2017-09-09T09:26:19Z oleo: if the first macro expression doesn't contain a declare form itself it will be expanded as usual....and when it refers to a second expression (which is another macro somewhere else) that one will be expanded too
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2017-09-09T09:26:24Z oleo: yah, sorry phoe
2017-09-09T09:26:28Z oleo: :)
2017-09-09T09:26:49Z oleo: that was it is guaranteed
2017-09-09T09:27:41Z oleo: s/was/way/
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2017-09-09T09:29:38Z oleo: since the code walker isn't required to expand macros before checking for declarations.....
2017-09-09T09:31:02Z oleo: and when it already checked for declarations before the macro expansion, it is too late for the declarations to get effect
2017-09-09T09:31:48Z oleo: ?
2017-09-09T09:32:19Z oleo: what happens there ?
2017-09-09T09:32:44Z oleo: what does the macro expansion turn into when it checked for declarations already before the expansion ?
2017-09-09T09:32:56Z oleo: a no-op ?
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2017-09-09T09:40:03Z oleo: if the code-walker can't walk a macro to check for if it contains declarations, and hence can't distinguish if the expression is a declare-form of a sub-expression or if the declare-form is a result of the expansion of the macro.....
2017-09-09T09:40:23Z oleo: isn't that a little confusing tho ?
2017-09-09T09:40:32Z phoe: wait, why can't a code walker walk a macro?
2017-09-09T09:40:46Z oleo: all i see is the actual declare-form wrapped by a function
2017-09-09T09:41:03Z phoe: this implies that forms as simple as IN-PACKAGE, DEFUN, DEFMACRO, DEFVAR cannot be walked
2017-09-09T09:41:24Z phoe: which makes such a code walker useful for close to nothing
2017-09-09T09:41:26Z oleo: ya, i think i found a wrong explanation in LOL
2017-09-09T09:41:42Z oleo: all i see is the actual declare-form wrapped by a function in the expansion
2017-09-09T09:41:59Z oleo: so that must be the reason rather
2017-09-09T09:44:35Z oleo: all i see is the actual declare-form wrapped by a function/special-form in the expansion
2017-09-09T09:44:37Z oleo: meh
2017-09-09T09:46:24Z oleo: ya, this "extent" stuff is pretty confusing
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2017-09-09T12:34:47Z didi: I think I finally understood why PCL uses `with-standard-io-syntax' after trying to save a list to a file with `*print-length*' set to 42.
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2017-09-09T12:35:44Z phoe: :P
2017-09-09T12:36:13Z didi: :-)
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2017-09-09T12:46:12Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/+7M8P
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2017-09-09T12:50:23Z phoe: (sb-ext:with-stfu ...)
2017-09-09T12:50:26Z phoe: you just implemented it
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2017-09-09T12:53:29Z oleo: ?
2017-09-09T12:53:34Z Bike: indeed
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2017-09-09T12:54:47Z phoe: you told SBCL to STFU and eval your code
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2017-09-09T12:57:29Z oleo: can you be more explicit ?
2017-09-09T12:57:36Z oleo: what do you mean ?
2017-09-09T12:58:08Z Bike: what is the point of this paste. you just posted this with no context or explanation. do you expect a response
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2017-09-09T13:12:45Z phoe: you just posted a way of telling SBCL that it should shut the fuck up and evaluate whatever you gave it without printing any notes, warnings or errors
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2017-09-09T13:17:12Z jack_rip_vim: hello, I have a question about those lisp that has been shared at ckili, are those modules need to install c library so that I can use it?
2017-09-09T13:17:48Z Bike: some lisp libraries may require C parts but most of them don't.
2017-09-09T13:18:32Z jack_rip_vim: so some of it still need to install c part with it?
2017-09-09T13:19:22Z Bike: some do, sure.
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2017-09-09T13:22:07Z jack_rip_vim: hmm, maybe I should figure out those libraries that require c part. I am trying to make a lisp os. so I need to know if those libraries require c part things
2017-09-09T13:24:04Z Bike: some of them are doing unix os things, so you would need to reimplement them rather.
2017-09-09T13:25:00Z jack_rip_vim: I may need to change some of the code on clisp, so that it can be a nice common lisp shell
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2017-09-09T13:25:46Z godratio: I have taken the plunge you have me
2017-09-09T13:25:55Z godratio: what shall i do now that i am here but learn the ways of the force
2017-09-09T13:26:02Z godratio: show me my grand wizards how I can too also be a jedi master
2017-09-09T13:26:14Z jack_rip_vim: I know, in 1980s, there are lisp machine, so maybe we can make it popular again
2017-09-09T13:26:24Z godratio: ooking forward to being part of the community here as lisp will be my second language
2017-09-09T13:26:58Z godratio: There are now FPG’s perhaps we can put the lisp intereperter in hardware soon
2017-09-09T13:27:00Z godratio: :)
2017-09-09T13:27:02Z didi: jack_rip_vim: I don't doubt your capacity, but implementing "a lisp os" sounds like a daunting task. I would trying finding something smaller to work on.
2017-09-09T13:27:13Z didi: s/trying/try
2017-09-09T13:28:34Z jack_rip_vim: I think I should have try, so that lisp language has more future.
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2017-09-09T13:29:19Z didi: Well, don't worry about lisp's future.
2017-09-09T13:29:43Z didi: It will outlast us all.
2017-09-09T13:30:06Z didi: Eer, outlive?
2017-09-09T13:30:24Z didi: Yeah, "outlive".
2017-09-09T13:30:28Z jack_rip_vim: I will share a test lisp os system at the end of this month.
2017-09-09T13:30:34Z didi: Cool.
2017-09-09T13:30:53Z jack_rip_vim: maybe it doesn't work so well
2017-09-09T13:30:55Z godratio: I like the idea but dont do it for the language do it for what the advantage of having it done in lisp would be not for the language.  THe original concepts of lisp and make it something not about languages but about what is capable with a very flexible system
2017-09-09T13:31:13Z jack_rip_vim: but I think it worth a try
2017-09-09T13:31:15Z godratio: Like the mother of al demos that type of mindset
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2017-09-09T13:31:53Z Shinmera: There's already Lisp OSs out there.
2017-09-09T13:31:53Z jack_rip_vim: ko
2017-09-09T13:32:08Z jack_rip_vim: which lisp os?
2017-09-09T13:32:22Z Shinmera: Mezzano, Open Genera.
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2017-09-09T13:32:51Z godratio: no one cares what language the os is in onlyt it capability to the users and the developers.
2017-09-09T13:32:55Z jack_rip_vim: i know open genera, but it doesnt support so well at all
2017-09-09T13:33:13Z godratio: If you can deliver on those two fronts something good than it will be useful.
2017-09-09T13:33:19Z _death: Movitz as well
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2017-09-09T13:34:33Z jack_rip_vim: OK, I will try to make it like that
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2017-09-09T13:48:25Z didi: Is there a resource to learn how to properly debug in lisp?
2017-09-09T13:50:36Z didi: I feel like I am underusing lisp's debug capabilities.
2017-09-09T13:51:37Z jack_rip_vim: normally , clisp shell will return the error
2017-09-09T13:51:58Z Bike: i don't know how to explain it much besides just looking at the debugger
2017-09-09T13:52:02Z Bike: C-h m in sldb, i guess
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2017-09-09T13:52:16Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
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2017-09-09T13:56:13Z didi: My debugging so far has been printing forms, evaling functions with C-u C-c C-c and occasionally evaling forms inside the debugger.
2017-09-09T13:57:32Z Shinmera: Don't forget pressing 'v' on a stack frame to jump to the definition and potentially see the form in the definition that the error is in.
2017-09-09T13:57:50Z didi: Shinmera: Ah, cool, thanks.
2017-09-09T13:58:19Z Shinmera: Just using TRACE is also useful a lot of the time to avoid having to write manual print stuff. Otherwise you can also insert (break) at points of interest to explicitly invoke the debugger and see local variables and whatnot.
2017-09-09T13:58:46Z didi: Shinmera: I _just_ used (break) for the first time exactly for that.
2017-09-09T13:59:26Z Shinmera: Occasionally I also use STEP when I already have a rough idea of the error location.
2017-09-09T13:59:35Z Shinmera: and a way to reproduce it, of course
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2017-09-09T14:05:04Z Shinmera: I just remembered that there was this five-part article series on debugging in lisp: http://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/
2017-09-09T14:05:28Z Shinmera: Haven't read it myself, so I can't vouch for it, but I assume it's worth reading.
2017-09-09T14:05:31Z didi: Shinmera: Nice, thank you.
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2017-09-09T14:11:37Z godratio: i just read that resource not to long ago its very cursory view of the features that are available if your using slime best to read their user manual.
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2017-09-09T14:15:02Z didi: godratio: Thanks.
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2017-09-09T14:25:13Z pjb: godratio: programers care if they can modify the OS while running using their favorite programming language.
2017-09-09T14:25:51Z jack_rip_vim: i hope the system can use lisp language as their major language
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2017-09-09T14:26:28Z godratio: Yes i agree this is one of the awesome benefits of having a lisp like OS  I am just saying if your goal is t make it a useable OS for users as well also need to have that in mind
2017-09-09T14:26:52Z jack_rip_vim: i will keep it
2017-09-09T14:26:58Z godratio: if not no need to worry about it than just a  commad line interface is good. I would use it.
2017-09-09T14:27:12Z godratio: Actually had thought about the same thing myself
2017-09-09T14:28:03Z jack_rip_vim: :)
2017-09-09T14:29:01Z jack_rip_vim: if start from zero, I may use python to rewrite the lisp os kernel
2017-09-09T14:29:41Z jack_rip_vim: but we have c version common lisp
2017-09-09T14:31:07Z pjb: Good luck with python! :-)
2017-09-09T14:31:25Z jack_rip_vim: i can use python well
2017-09-09T14:31:39Z jack_rip_vim: :)
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2017-09-09T14:41:41Z phoe: Where can I get a useful list of keybindings for SLIME inspector?
2017-09-09T14:41:57Z phoe: doh
2017-09-09T14:41:58Z phoe: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Inspector.html
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2017-09-09T14:44:20Z Kovalski: Now how do I learn lisp, and what lisp?
2017-09-09T14:46:21Z Shinmera: This channel is for Common Lisp, so people will tell you to learn that.
2017-09-09T14:46:43Z Shinmera: They will then point you to PCL to get started.
2017-09-09T14:46:47Z Shinmera: minion: tell Kovalski about PCL
2017-09-09T14:46:47Z minion: Kovalski: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-09-09T14:47:26Z jack_rip_vim: clojure <-- i am not sure if that is lisp
2017-09-09T14:47:35Z phoe: that's a debate for #lispcafe
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2017-09-09T14:48:51Z Kovalski: minion, I'm on page 3 of the same exact book.
2017-09-09T14:48:51Z minion: what other connections do you see?
2017-09-09T14:49:07Z Kovalski: phoe, what is?
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2017-09-09T14:49:14Z phoe: < jack_rip_vim> clojure <-- i am not sure if that is lisp
2017-09-09T14:49:17Z phoe: sorry, was unclear
2017-09-09T14:49:34Z phoe: Kovalski: anyway, read up on PCL. if you haven't programmed anything before, read gentle.
2017-09-09T14:49:37Z phoe: minion: tell Kovalski about gentle
2017-09-09T14:49:37Z minion: Kovalski: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2017-09-09T14:50:04Z Kovalski: What are the differences between different dialects of lisp?
2017-09-09T14:50:20Z Shinmera: About everything
2017-09-09T14:50:24Z Shinmera: aside from that they run on computers
2017-09-09T14:50:38Z Kovalski: So how does one decide?
2017-09-09T14:50:45Z Shinmera: By picking one and going with it.
2017-09-09T14:51:13Z Shinmera: Or, actually, since this is #lisp: Go with Common Lisp
2017-09-09T14:51:31Z JuanDaugherty: the first decision is common lisp or scheme, ur in the common lisp channel
2017-09-09T14:51:46Z phoe: Kovalski: what programming languages do you already know and prefer?
2017-09-09T14:52:17Z JuanDaugherty: there's also a general lisp channel ##lisp
2017-09-09T14:52:26Z Kovalski: phoe, I've some programming time with c. That's it.
2017-09-09T14:52:51Z phoe: Kovalski: then you'll get to learn lots of new stuff regardless of which Lisp you choose. (:
2017-09-09T14:53:13Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-09-09T14:53:25Z Kovalski: phoe, oh I'm looking forward for that.
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2017-09-09T14:53:41Z Kovalski: phoe, what lisp do you use?
2017-09-09T14:53:45Z phoe: Kovalski: well then, you ended up on a Common Lisp channel, so you'll get a lot of "Common Lisp" answers
2017-09-09T14:53:49Z phoe: Kovalski: I use CL
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2017-09-09T14:54:41Z phoe: right now I'm tweaking a launcher for a game. I wrote the launcher in CL with Qt for graphics. https://i.imgur.com/FxRFDo2.png
2017-09-09T14:54:51Z Kovalski: phoe, what about scheme? I know now it's a CL channel, but still.
2017-09-09T14:55:02Z Shinmera: Answers differing from CL will be responded to with utmost prejudice. :)
2017-09-09T14:55:38Z phoe: Kovalski: Scheme is much smaller than CL. I personally began by learning the basics of Scheme before jumping onto CL.
2017-09-09T14:55:52Z phoe: But, honestly, when it comes to the very very basics, they're mostly the same.
2017-09-09T14:56:08Z Kovalski: Shinmera, are you threatening phoe?
2017-09-09T14:56:13Z phoe: You'll still need to munch on S-expressions, which are (lisp way (of) storing (data (in (list format))))
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2017-09-09T14:56:28Z Shinmera: Kovalski: If you want me to
2017-09-09T14:56:52Z phoe: and you'll learn operating on these, taking CARs, CDRs, creating new lists, traversing them, doing a few exercises like zipping (1 2 3) and (4 5 6) into ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)) and so on.
2017-09-09T14:56:55Z Kovalski: phoe, I like your use of paranthesis. See I'm already liking lisp.
2017-09-09T14:57:02Z pjb: r7rs is bigger than clhs.
2017-09-09T14:57:08Z jack_rip_vim: when I started to learn lisp, it is easy to forget the "(" ")"
2017-09-09T14:57:12Z phoe: Kovalski: it's not my use of parens, it's Lisp. :P
2017-09-09T14:57:14Z phoe: pjb: wait what
2017-09-09T14:57:25Z phoe: r7 really beat ANSI CL?
2017-09-09T14:58:19Z Kovalski: phoe, what's the game about?
2017-09-09T14:58:29Z phoe: Kovalski: which game?
2017-09-09T14:58:40Z Kovalski: phoe, your game.
2017-09-09T14:58:42Z phoe: oh! it's basically a textual roleplaying game, a chat.
2017-09-09T14:58:46Z phoe: I wrote only a launcher for it.
2017-09-09T14:59:09Z phoe: The game itself is pretty old and run by other people, I'm only writing some utilities for it.
2017-09-09T14:59:21Z Kovalski: phoe, what's the name?
2017-09-09T14:59:26Z phoe: Furcadia.
2017-09-09T14:59:33Z phoe: The first MMO to be created.
2017-09-09T14:59:38Z pjb: phoe: r7rs large.  r7rs small is still only 88 pages.
2017-09-09T14:59:38Z phoe: But that's a #lispcafe discussion.
2017-09-09T14:59:49Z phoe: pjb: oh, so now there's two r7 Schemes. I see.
2017-09-09T15:00:03Z pjb: core language, and libraries.
2017-09-09T15:00:30Z Kovalski: phoe, what's #lispcafe for?
2017-09-09T15:00:55Z phoe: Kovalski: it's a general Lisp lounge channel. Chatting about whatever.
2017-09-09T15:01:27Z phoe: There are a few lispy IRC channels around here. #lisp for general CL discussion, #lispcafe for everything, #clnoobs for learning Lisp, channels for toolkits, implementations and projects.
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2017-09-09T15:02:25Z Kovalski: So by lisp you always mean CL here on #lisp. Copy that.
2017-09-09T15:02:41Z phoe: #lisp is the biggest and you'll find everything here: library discussion, random issues with compiling, questions about object systems, random intellectual rants from pjb, newbies asking shy questions, people announcing new releases...
2017-09-09T15:02:45Z phoe: the list is long
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2017-09-09T15:03:59Z Kovalski: Awesome.
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2017-09-09T15:04:40Z Kovalski: I've been on #haskell, I tell you, they're pretty closed borders down there.
2017-09-09T15:06:56Z phoe: well, huh
2017-09-09T15:07:04Z phoe: maybe they need more parens
2017-09-09T15:07:10Z phoe: it's good stuff, I tell ya
2017-09-09T15:08:26Z Kovalski: Then it's official, I'm joining the cult of #lisp.
2017-09-09T15:08:38Z Kovalski: Thanks for the invitation.
2017-09-09T15:08:57Z phoe: it's not a cult
2017-09-09T15:09:24Z phoe: I'll stop smoking parens the moment I notice Lisp starts worshipping me
2017-09-09T15:10:57Z Kovalski: Hah, I'm a cult then.
2017-09-09T15:11:16Z Kovalski: What other languages do you care about?
2017-09-09T15:11:45Z phoe: I don't know. Probably the ones that other people use for some reason because they're doing X which requires language FOO.
2017-09-09T15:11:49Z phoe: That's a pretty general question.
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2017-09-09T15:13:25Z Kovalski: Cool.
2017-09-09T15:14:54Z godratio: I just joined the lisp jedi legion myself today learning hard and learning fast
2017-09-09T15:15:07Z Kovalski: I'll start with Practical Common Lisp, I guess. I'll come back and you tell me if I'm the same me.
2017-09-09T15:15:08Z godratio: as fast as possible
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2017-09-09T15:15:53Z godratio: Practical common lisp does good in the beginning but after the first 5 chapter its not very pragmatic
2017-09-09T15:15:53Z jack_rip_vim: Is common lisp under POSIX?
2017-09-09T15:16:20Z Kovalski: godratio, I'll have to check my milege.
2017-09-09T15:16:44Z Kovalski: godratio, what do you suggest?
2017-09-09T15:17:08Z pjb: jack_rip_vim: what does that mean?
2017-09-09T15:17:29Z godratio: Yeah its good but not like a quick start hmmm well if you want to just jump in with sloppy details so you can try and messaround and then jump into detail as you see fit i like this
2017-09-09T15:17:31Z godratio: https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/common-lisp/
2017-09-09T15:17:41Z pjb: jack_rip_vim: Common Lisp is your god, there's nothing above it!
2017-09-09T15:17:49Z jack_rip_vim: ok
2017-09-09T15:18:03Z godratio: Yes i hope to be a jedi master in the common lisp someday.
2017-09-09T15:18:20Z phoe: godratio: study and you shall learn.
2017-09-09T15:18:32Z phoe: and ask questions, and contemplate the answers.
2017-09-09T15:18:42Z godratio: yes my master… hmm are we dark side or light side hmm im gonna say light
2017-09-09T15:18:44Z jack_rip_vim: where can I get all the inner functions?
2017-09-09T15:18:51Z phoe: jack_rip_vim: inner functions? what do you mean?
2017-09-09T15:19:27Z phoe: godratio: Lisp has no sides, it's round. Like parens.
2017-09-09T15:20:02Z jack_rip_vim: something that list in lisp manual doesn't exist
2017-09-09T15:20:09Z godratio: hehe very good one.  It can be light or dark i see well i will stay on the side of the light for truth no one can turn me into  a schemer!
2017-09-09T15:21:33Z Kovalski: godratio, don't be a fanatic, says the cult.
2017-09-09T15:21:46Z phoe: jack_rip_vim: uh? I didn't understand that.
2017-09-09T15:22:00Z jack_rip_vim: I try to run some function that suggest in lisp manual, but the function doesn't exit
2017-09-09T15:22:22Z beach: jack_rip_vim: which one?
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2017-09-09T15:22:33Z beach: jack_rip_vim: And which "lisp manual"?
2017-09-09T15:22:33Z phoe: and from which manual?
2017-09-09T15:22:37Z beach: heh
2017-09-09T15:22:42Z phoe: (incf beach)
2017-09-09T15:23:06Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2017-09-09T15:23:15Z beach: jack_rip_vim: The only valid "lisp manual" is the standard, usually incarnated as the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2017-09-09T15:23:40Z beach: [though phoe is working on an improved version of the same documentation]
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2017-09-09T15:24:05Z jack_rip_vim: common luso the language 2nd edition
2017-09-09T15:24:12Z jack_rip_vim: common lisp* the language 2nd edition
2017-09-09T15:24:12Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-09-09T15:24:29Z phoe: jack_rip_vim: CLtL2 has some functions that are not in the standard, so that's possible.
2017-09-09T15:24:31Z jack_rip_vim: Guy L. Steele
2017-09-09T15:24:32Z phoe: What functions are you running?
2017-09-09T15:24:40Z beach: jack_rip_vim: That's not the standard.
2017-09-09T15:24:58Z jack_rip_vim: so where I can get all the standard?
2017-09-09T15:25:06Z pjb: clhs car
2017-09-09T15:25:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2017-09-09T15:25:09Z phoe: ^
2017-09-09T15:25:13Z pjb: here: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/
2017-09-09T15:26:02Z Kovalski: phoe, will I need this thing?
2017-09-09T15:26:28Z jack_rip_vim: isn't Guy L. Steele's book still on the suggestion book?
2017-09-09T15:26:34Z random-nick: you can also buy the official version from ANSI, but I don't think the official version is hyperlinked
2017-09-09T15:26:47Z pjb: Kovalski: you need to read ALL the lisp books you can get!
2017-09-09T15:27:20Z jack_rip_vim: $60
2017-09-09T15:27:31Z phoe: Kovalski: hyperspec? YES
2017-09-09T15:27:35Z Kovalski: pjb, I understand 'ALL' is an example in hyperbole but I'm ready.
2017-09-09T15:27:39Z jack_rip_vim: yeah
2017-09-09T15:27:41Z phoe: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YES. You will need it.
2017-09-09T15:28:02Z jack_rip_vim: ok, maybe I should buy one
2017-09-09T15:28:05Z phoe: random-nick: don't buy the official version.
2017-09-09T15:28:08Z phoe: random-nick: DON'T.
2017-09-09T15:28:14Z beach: Kovalski: Download it from the LispWorks website.
2017-09-09T15:28:53Z phoe: http://web.archive.org/web/20140711172606/http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=431
2017-09-09T15:28:59Z beach: jack_rip_vim: It is a good book, but it is not the standard, so you run the risk of getting into situations like you described.
2017-09-09T15:29:15Z phoe: Don't buy it from ANSI. They're selling shit.
2017-09-09T15:29:29Z jack_rip_vim: so, common lisp doesn't have any standard now?
2017-09-09T15:29:31Z phoe: There are community-curated PDFs of a draft standard, that's equivalent to the official one.
2017-09-09T15:29:34Z phoe: jack_rip_vim: of course it does
2017-09-09T15:29:49Z phoe: the standard itself exists, even though ANSI sells a very shitty copy of it through its website.
2017-09-09T15:30:03Z jack_rip_vim: so it doesn't have any basic functions?
2017-09-09T15:30:08Z Kovalski: I know I'll need it somewhere along the way, what I'm asking is do I need it Now. I think the best way to find is by diving in, isn't it? So I will.
2017-09-09T15:30:12Z phoe: jack_rip_vim: what do you mean, it doesn't have any basic functions?
2017-09-09T15:30:18Z phoe: Kovalski: for now, dive into PCL.
2017-09-09T15:30:19Z jack_rip_vim: like (list "xxx")
2017-09-09T15:30:25Z beach: clhs list
2017-09-09T15:30:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm
2017-09-09T15:30:26Z phoe: what do you mean? function LIST exists.
2017-09-09T15:31:04Z Kovalski: phoe, copy that. And thanks.
2017-09-09T15:31:09Z jack_rip_vim: I want to get all of the functions
2017-09-09T15:31:30Z Kovalski: So long guys. It's time to dive in.
2017-09-09T15:31:39Z jack_rip_vim: those we already put it into commmon lisp
2017-09-09T15:31:47Z Kovalski: Get your bungee jump suits ready.
2017-09-09T15:32:10Z beach: jack_rip_vim: so read the symbol index.  That's what it is for.
2017-09-09T15:32:27Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Front/X_AllSym.htm
2017-09-09T15:32:46Z jack_rip_vim: maybe I should take time to read the source code
2017-09-09T15:33:07Z beach: jack_rip_vim: The source code for what?
2017-09-09T15:33:27Z jack_rip_vim: common lisp source code
2017-09-09T15:33:29Z beach: jack_rip_vim: You seem seriously confused.
2017-09-09T15:33:50Z jack_rip_vim: phoe, your link is nice, that is what I need
2017-09-09T15:33:56Z beach: jack_rip_vim: There is no such thing.  There is a dozen different implementations of the standard.  Common Lisp is a language and does not have any source code.
2017-09-09T15:34:12Z beach: Unless you mean the TeX source code of the standard, of course.
2017-09-09T15:34:25Z jack_rip_vim: I mean the clisp client's source code
2017-09-09T15:34:52Z beach: jack_rip_vim: And why would you pick that particular implementation?
2017-09-09T15:35:04Z beach: jack_rip_vim: It is not particularly efficient.
2017-09-09T15:36:01Z jack_rip_vim: actually, I still have a lot of things that confused me.
2017-09-09T15:36:51Z jack_rip_vim: I hope I can get into it more
2017-09-09T15:36:56Z beach: Perhaps you are confusing "CLISP" (which is an implementation of the Common Lisp language) and "Common Lisp", the programming language.
2017-09-09T15:37:19Z beach: CLISP being an implementation does have source code, of course.  The Common Lisp language does not.
2017-09-09T15:37:49Z jack_rip_vim: you can write common lisp on clisp, I normally put those together
2017-09-09T15:38:07Z beach: I strongly advice against doing that.
2017-09-09T15:38:19Z jack_rip_vim: ok,
2017-09-09T15:38:33Z beach: In particular because CLISP is not even one of the most popular implementations used by people here in #lisp.
2017-09-09T15:38:44Z pjb: Kovalski: http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial and http://cliki.net/Lisp%20books
2017-09-09T15:38:58Z pjb: I like clisp!
2017-09-09T15:39:21Z jack_rip_vim: so, earlier lisp machine ran on whiche implementation?
2017-09-09T15:39:33Z pjb: It has unique advantages, such as long floats of any precision you want, good unicode support, small foot-print, and more.
2017-09-09T15:39:47Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Lisp machine Lisp.
2017-09-09T15:39:54Z pjb: jack_rip_vim: the first one on CAR. The second one on CADR>
2017-09-09T15:40:04Z jack_rip_vim: what is that?
2017-09-09T15:40:11Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Genera had several Lisps.  One was Common Lisp.
2017-09-09T15:40:22Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine
2017-09-09T15:41:02Z jack_rip_vim: I can't even get the earlier source code
2017-09-09T15:42:11Z beach: jack_rip_vim: The source code for the Lisp Machine is proprietary.
2017-09-09T15:42:19Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Most of it is not Common Lisp.
2017-09-09T15:42:59Z beach: jack_rip_vim: And the implementation of the Common Lisp language is proprietary like the rest of the code.  It is not one of the free implementation we deal with here on freenode.
2017-09-09T15:43:20Z jack_rip_vim: yes
2017-09-09T15:43:20Z jack_rip_vim: I am interested in it
2017-09-09T15:43:34Z pjb: You can get the sources and schematics of the CADR.  It's pre-proprietary.
2017-09-09T15:43:47Z jack_rip_vim: where to get it?
2017-09-09T15:44:14Z beach: pjb: Yes, sorry, I was thinking of the Symbolics Lisp machine.
2017-09-09T15:44:16Z pjb: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP
2017-09-09T15:45:19Z jack_rip_vim: most of it can't run on x86 platform, I guess
2017-09-09T15:45:43Z beach: jack_rip_vim: That's correct.
2017-09-09T15:46:07Z beach: jack_rip_vim: A lot of it is specific to the specific architecture.
2017-09-09T15:46:19Z jack_rip_vim: maybe those books can tell me what it looks like
2017-09-09T15:46:34Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Of course, if you find some conforming Common Lisp code in there, then that particular code could be re-used.
2017-09-09T15:47:07Z beach: jack_rip_vim: But the Lisp machine(s) existed before the Common Lisp standard was decided upon.
2017-09-09T15:47:35Z jack_rip_vim: yeah, I have read those histories
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2017-09-09T15:48:28Z jack_rip_vim: actually, I have a openGenera cd, but I still need a machine
2017-09-09T15:49:22Z beach: I hear you can buy one on Ebay occasionally.
2017-09-09T15:49:34Z jack_rip_vim: most of cool things require old machine to get more support
2017-09-09T15:49:39Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-09-09T15:50:46Z jack_rip_vim: ebay no always has that
2017-09-09T15:51:32Z beach: jack_rip_vim: You might also want to check out this attempt at a modern "Lisp OS".  It is not quite correct in this case, because there are other languages involved, and the OS itself is Linux, but the user experience might give you some ideas: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6yuajg/lisp_machine_rides_again/
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2017-09-09T15:52:32Z beach: It uses McCLIM, which is an implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp Interface Manager.  CLIM was also available on the Symbolics Lisp machine.
2017-09-09T15:52:51Z jack_rip_vim: I am thinking to change initrd.gz file at linux, so that it can only load clisp client
2017-09-09T15:53:23Z godratio: what is a good looping construct that will give you the place rather than the element
2017-09-09T15:53:25Z godratio: ?
2017-09-09T15:54:18Z pjb: maplist and mapcon
2017-09-09T15:54:30Z godratio: Is docount the only option here pulling the place or cons from the list yourself or is there a looping construct that will give you a reference or place
2017-09-09T15:54:36Z jack_rip_vim: beach, I may try to buy a iMac PowserPC, someone said openGenera can install on it
2017-09-09T15:54:45Z pjb: and mapl of course.
2017-09-09T15:54:51Z godratio: ok i will check those out pjb
2017-09-09T15:54:53Z phoe: godratio: what are you looping on?
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2017-09-09T15:55:03Z godratio: Im looping on a list of chars
2017-09-09T15:55:08Z pjb: in loop, it's :on
2017-09-09T15:55:10Z godratio: im doing parsing.
2017-09-09T15:55:18Z godratio: first time in lisp
2017-09-09T15:55:21Z phoe: either maplist or loop on.
2017-09-09T15:55:37Z godratio: ok i will try loop on thanks
2017-09-09T15:55:38Z pjb: (loop while source do (let ((ch (pop source))) …))
2017-09-09T15:56:44Z beach: godratio: Places are not first-class objects in Common Lisp.
2017-09-09T15:57:06Z beach: godratio: The best you can do is to get (a reference to the) CONS cell in the list.
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2017-09-09T15:58:32Z pjb: godratio: check http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2017-09-09T15:58:35Z White_Flame: places basically exist in source code and are compiled away.  That's why macros are required if you want to pass them through a call chain
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2017-09-09T15:58:45Z godratio: Yes thats what im trying to do is get the reference … im a bit of a noob so im not really for sure exacly what the difference between places and references are yet.
2017-09-09T15:59:01Z godratio: ohhh ok
2017-09-09T15:59:30Z godratio: wrapping my head around these concepts .. places are compile time constructs ..>
2017-09-09T15:59:37Z White_Flame: (setf ..some-place... 3) is a compile-time decision as to which setter to include there
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2017-09-09T16:01:08Z White_Flame: if you absolutely need dynamic runtime "pointers" to modify, then the term to look for is a "locative", as was used in older Lisps
2017-09-09T16:01:28Z White_Flame: but generally, there's going to be a different better solution than just relying on C-style coding :)
2017-09-09T16:01:42Z godratio: locative i would like to walk forward the place im parsing concept
2017-09-09T16:02:10Z jack_rip_vim: common lisp can load c library, I saw that on doc
2017-09-09T16:02:16Z White_Flame: are you parsing a string?  then pass around the offset.  are you parsing through a list?  then pass the current cons cell
2017-09-09T16:02:43Z godratio: yeah i understand that but like i said im a bit of a  noob long time c programmer i have not got those advanced lisp things down just taking baby steps learning syntax lingo and how to build basic programs
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2017-09-09T16:03:56Z jack_rip_vim: in /usr/share/doc/clisp, some simple examples in those html files
2017-09-09T16:04:25Z godratio: i guess i have the choice of parsing a string or a char write now i read in teh file as a char list as that seemed the way to do it and yeah going with the offset was my first intution but i though maybe there was a way to pass around thre cons cell around like a reference or pointer
2017-09-09T16:04:55Z godratio: good to learn these things.  I also seen there was a way to recure through the cdr concept hehe
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2017-09-09T16:05:24Z White_Flame: if you're parsing "abcde" then there are no cons cells, but a string which is a type of vector.  If you're parsing ("a" "b" "c" "d" "e") [which is strings] or (#\a #\b #\c #\d #\d) [which is chars] then you do have cons cells as part of a list.
2017-09-09T16:05:44Z godratio: let me cout the ways i can parse this file haha I will be wanting effecience in my lisp programs so good to know how its working underneath the hood.
2017-09-09T16:06:15Z godratio: (yeah i have at the moment (#\a … )
2017-09-09T16:06:38Z godratio: so now i am getting it going.
2017-09-09T16:08:59Z godratio: what i was surprised was there was no easy way to read in teh file as string which in a higher level language i thought there would be a one liner for that.
2017-09-09T16:09:38Z godratio: It seems that string in lisp are always unicode no ascii…. which is why i read them in as chars rather than a list of strings …
2017-09-09T16:10:29Z beach: godratio: When I said "a reference to a CONS cell", I was merely pointing out that Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics", which means that, semantically, every object is manipulated through a reference.  Places are still not first-class objects in Common Lisp.
2017-09-09T16:10:30Z jack_rip_vim: I think I need to take a little bit time to read all the old document, so that I can know more about the earlier lisp machine.
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2017-09-09T16:11:19Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Common Lisp is a language, so it can't load anything.  Some Common Lisp implementation (most, probably) can load C libraries, though.
2017-09-09T16:11:51Z godratio: beach: You mean places that would be like c# references?
2017-09-09T16:12:06Z beach: godratio: I mean things like &variable in C.
2017-09-09T16:12:09Z jack_rip_vim: yeah
2017-09-09T16:12:48Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Common Lisp being a language is also neither interpreted nor compiled, which is another characteristic of the particular implementation.
2017-09-09T16:12:50Z godratio: I never use &variable in C it causes more bugs than anything for me.  I always just use raw pointers.
2017-09-09T16:13:06Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Similarly, Common Lisp is neither fast nor slow, another implementation characteristic.
2017-09-09T16:13:18Z godratio: Yes i read a lot about that.
2017-09-09T16:13:59Z godratio: it all depends.  on the context but it is good that lisp has the potential for good enough performance.
2017-09-09T16:14:11Z jack_rip_vim: actually, lisp languages like a task lisp, and the machine just runs it
2017-09-09T16:14:23Z jack_rip_vim: task list*
2017-09-09T16:14:27Z beach: godratio: Strings in Common Lisp are neither Unicode nor ASCII.  They are vectors of characters.
2017-09-09T16:14:37Z godratio: Anyways my main reason for picking it up is i want a tools language and wiould like to write an interpreter in it to use it as a scripting language for my in progress engine.
2017-09-09T16:14:41Z godratio: game engine.
2017-09-09T16:14:51Z phoe: godratio: #lispgames might be good for you, as a side note
2017-09-09T16:14:56Z godratio: game/engine or just game for get teh engine parte hehe
2017-09-09T16:15:17Z godratio: I am a professional game programmer in Japan I work for DeNA
2017-09-09T16:15:30Z godratio: no need to learn how to make games just how to do lisp haha
2017-09-09T16:15:49Z phoe: I know - #lispgames is just a community of people who utilize Lisp in some form in their games
2017-09-09T16:15:57Z phoe: Might be what you're looking for
2017-09-09T16:16:02Z godratio: I will be doing indie game would like to have lisp as a scripting language
2017-09-09T16:16:07Z godratio: ohhh really
2017-09-09T16:16:09Z beach: godratio: There have been many projects in the past to do that, and there are many existing Common Lisp implementations suitable as a scripting language.  However, why on earth would you write software in a static language and then use a slow interpreter for scripting?
2017-09-09T16:16:18Z godratio: wow cool i willl check itout i though no one did that anymore.
2017-09-09T16:17:26Z godratio: The main reason is 1. Implmentation speed.   for teh game specific stuff
2017-09-09T16:17:27Z beach: godratio: The combination will be slow, and impossible to debug.  I strongly recommend you write the entire program in Common Lisp.  Then you need no particular implementation for scripting purposes.
2017-09-09T16:17:49Z beach: godratio: Are you saying you think the good Common Lisp we use are slow?
2017-09-09T16:17:55Z godratio: Why would the combination be slow do you think?
2017-09-09T16:18:21Z beach: Because people will write more code in the scripting language, simply because they can't modify the static code base.
2017-09-09T16:18:49Z beach: godratio: What makes you think that using a static language would make your software faster?
2017-09-09T16:18:57Z godratio: I will write my own custom interpreter im thinking which will compile down to machine code
2017-09-09T16:19:11Z beach: Then it is not an interpreter, it is a compiler.
2017-09-09T16:19:20Z beach: And you have a huge task in front of you then.
2017-09-09T16:19:34Z godratio: hopefully that will work out if not at the least i will be using lisp for offline processign meta programming tools to output c code.
2017-09-09T16:19:43Z godratio: webserver etc..
2017-09-09T16:19:47Z beach: Alternatively, you can use a good existing Common Lisp implementation for the entire thing.  See for instance: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01544135/document
2017-09-09T16:20:02Z jack_rip_vim: if load all the modules, will that takes a lot of memories?
2017-09-09T16:20:26Z beach: godratio: ECL already generates C code if that is what you want.
2017-09-09T16:20:31Z phoe: jack_rip_vim: which modules?
2017-09-09T16:20:41Z godratio: I will use them if they are good enough if not its my own sub version of lisp of my own design obviously i would not implmenet common-lisp all of it jsut like a lisp like language that has access to the  c-api of my game.
2017-09-09T16:20:42Z beach: godratio: Otherwise, SBCL, CCL, etc generate native machine code directly.
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2017-09-09T16:21:19Z phoe: godratio: you might want to use a smaller Lisp for that purpose. ask on #lispgames.
2017-09-09T16:21:27Z jack_rip_vim: I mean if I try to load all the exist modules, will that take too much memories?
2017-09-09T16:21:35Z godratio: Yes but you cant embed SBCL inside a c-program how is the interfacing and marshalling can i get it to work with my memory allocators?/ etc…
2017-09-09T16:22:28Z godratio: ok yes i was thinking just a subset of small lisp .. anyways before all that i just need to learn regular lisp like i said i need to be an expert for comomn lisp to write my offline tools and webservers etc…
2017-09-09T16:22:57Z beach: godratio: ECL means "Embeddable Common Lisp" if that is what you need.
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2017-09-09T16:24:20Z godratio: Yes i have heard of that… I will check it out someday  when its time right now first i want to do some text processing for outputting some c code maybe play around with it helping to generate some shader variants and some fun stuff like webservers etc… its my personal project i can do whatever i want
2017-09-09T16:24:22Z beach: godratio: That said, most Common Lisp implementations, including SBCL supports some foreign-function interface, typically CFFI.
2017-09-09T16:24:53Z godratio: beach: Cool i actually really like SBCL so far so would be cool to interface witht that somehow.
2017-09-09T16:25:02Z godratio: Well see how that goes.
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2017-09-09T16:27:55Z godratio: I really enjoying lisp I like it how it came to be and the fundamental nature of it and the building block nature of it its history and its future.  I look foward to talking with you gentleman more but for now its late here in Japan I must go to bed.
2017-09-09T16:28:04Z godratio: beach: Thanks beach
2017-09-09T16:28:24Z godratio: Thats where im going in my dreams now.
2017-09-09T16:28:30Z whoman: yeah!
2017-09-09T16:29:47Z jack_rip_vim: I mean if I try to load all the exist modules, will that take too much memories?
2017-09-09T16:30:02Z jack_rip_vim: will this be a big problem?
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2017-09-09T16:31:47Z phoe: jack_rip_vim: which modules?
2017-09-09T16:31:51Z phoe: what modules do you mean?
2017-09-09T16:32:14Z jack_rip_vim: I mean all of exist modules.
2017-09-09T16:32:24Z phoe: What modules?
2017-09-09T16:32:39Z phoe: I don't know anything about Common Lisp modules.
2017-09-09T16:32:40Z whoman: any potential/possible module
2017-09-09T16:32:46Z phoe: But a modules of what?
2017-09-09T16:32:53Z whoman: package?
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2017-09-09T16:33:00Z phoe: Packages are already loaded.
2017-09-09T16:33:10Z phoe: You can't load a package, anyway.
2017-09-09T16:33:24Z jack_rip_vim: common lisp has a (load) function to load the .lisp files
2017-09-09T16:33:25Z whoman: hehe
2017-09-09T16:34:04Z jack_rip_vim: if we load all of lisp files, will that take too much memories?
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2017-09-09T16:34:30Z whoman: less memories than the lisp files themselves generally, until eval/exec
2017-09-09T16:34:37Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Yes, very likely too much memory.  There are probably hundreds of thousands of modules out there.  We only know of a few thousand, so you will have a hard time finding all that exists, but if you do, and then try to load them, you are very likely going to go beyond the amount of main memory a process on your OS will allow.
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2017-09-09T16:35:00Z whoman: oh gosh. i think he was asking because of all the printout.
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2017-09-09T16:35:19Z jack_rip_vim: how to remove those lisp files that we already load?
2017-09-09T16:35:27Z whoman: i think he is just wondering if its doing a lot more than it is
2017-09-09T16:35:34Z beach: jack_rip_vim: I am interested.  How are you planning to find "all existing modules"?
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2017-09-09T16:36:01Z whoman: loading lisp files is nothing to worry about until you dont have to ask that question
2017-09-09T16:36:03Z beach: jack_rip_vim: How will you find every person on the planet who ever wrote a Lisp module?
2017-09-09T16:36:16Z whoman: ..=
2017-09-09T16:36:28Z jack_rip_vim: ckili has a lot of libraries, so I am thinking to load all of it directly
2017-09-09T16:36:33Z beach: jack_rip_vim: My nephew has written a few too, but I don't think he gives them away.  How are you planning to load those?
2017-09-09T16:37:16Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Whatever ckili is, it is nowhere near "all existing Lisp modules" and probably loading all the ones you find in a particular directory is going to be safe.
2017-09-09T16:37:32Z jack_rip_vim: i may chnage some of clisp's source code , so that it can support to load all of it
2017-09-09T16:37:41Z beach: *sigh*
2017-09-09T16:37:43Z beach: I give up.
2017-09-09T16:37:46Z whoman: hmm
2017-09-09T16:38:03Z jack_rip_vim: =_=, maybe this is a hard job
2017-09-09T16:38:05Z whoman: giant lisp image with everything in it
2017-09-09T16:39:09Z jack_rip_vim: :) , I may try it, but I am not sure if it will burn out my computer's memory or not
2017-09-09T16:39:10Z whoman: how do you use everything anyway. a fully complete kitchen, but can only make one or two things at a time
2017-09-09T16:39:36Z whoman: you should be ok with 16-32gb
2017-09-09T16:40:58Z jack_rip_vim: yeah, I may need to buy more memory card
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2017-09-09T16:42:18Z whoman: well. storing it on your hard disk for loading when you need it is a similar situation
2017-09-09T16:42:45Z whoman: if you can save all the lisp on your computer, then you can get a more clear understanding of the task
2017-09-09T16:43:00Z jack_rip_vim: how to clean the exist define function?
2017-09-09T16:43:42Z jack_rip_vim: like I write a (hello-world) function, how to clean it?
2017-09-09T16:45:00Z whoman: how is it dirty?
2017-09-09T16:45:41Z jack_rip_vim: no, I am thinking if I can clean those function that I don't want it anymore
2017-09-09T16:45:46Z pjb:  (defun hello-world () (write-line "Hello, World!"))
2017-09-09T16:45:53Z pjb: (unintern 'hello-world)
2017-09-09T16:46:20Z jack_rip_vim: so (unintern) can remove it?
2017-09-09T16:46:37Z pjb: Not really.  Only the garbage collector can remove it.
2017-09-09T16:46:49Z pjb: But unintern will make it near to impossible for yout retrieve it.
2017-09-09T16:47:40Z jack_rip_vim: maybe clisp require a function that can clean function from memory
2017-09-09T16:48:01Z pjb: clisp is a fucking implementation, it doesn't require anything.
2017-09-09T16:48:29Z pjb: jack_rip_vim: do you clean C functions from memory?  What about JavaScript functions?
2017-09-09T16:49:01Z jack_rip_vim: sorry to make you so angury
2017-09-09T16:49:38Z pjb: Not angry.  You already have been told about the difference between a language and an implementation.  It has to be drilled into your head.
2017-09-09T16:49:52Z jack_rip_vim: give me some time so that I can know the way that clisp work
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2017-09-09T16:50:34Z jack_rip_vim: maybe I am just confused how clisp deal with common lisp
2017-09-09T16:51:15Z pjb: jack_rip_vim: read the sources of clisp! https://sourceforge.net/projects/clisp/files/clisp/2.49/clisp-2.49.tar.gz/download
2017-09-09T16:51:47Z Ober: jack_rip_vim: welcome to #lisp. The same mentally unstable people that rush to a UFO landing, as if they are the ones we want to make first contact...
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2017-09-09T16:54:52Z pjb: jack_rip_vim: the point here is that you should not care about that: eventually your OS will crash, and you will have to reboot all your lisp images, so it will be cleared automatically.
2017-09-09T16:55:13Z pjb: you didn't care for your C functions, don't care for your Lisp functions!
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2017-09-09T17:07:16Z borodust: hello, mighty lispers!
2017-09-09T17:08:17Z borodust: i desperately need a person who uses windows and lisp (sbcl/ccl) together to see if piece of software works on that platfrom
2017-09-09T17:08:21Z pjb: hi
2017-09-09T17:08:25Z borodust: are there any like those here? :)
2017-09-09T17:08:39Z pjb: Can't you use MS-Windows in VirtualBox?
2017-09-09T17:09:34Z borodust: it actually works on my win machine, but i have polluted dev environment there (i'm developing on linux myself), so not sure if it will work on other machines
2017-09-09T17:09:51Z borodust: pjb: I don't have money for another license :/
2017-09-09T17:09:51Z pjb: Easier to make yourself a VM…
2017-09-09T17:10:35Z borodust: i actually did want to do that a long time ago, but apparently, i can't use my copy of windows to install into vm and use on the machine at the same time
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2017-09-09T18:10:25Z Ober: roswell?
2017-09-09T18:10:39Z pjb: Area 51.
2017-09-09T18:11:24Z Ober: https://github.com/roswell/roswell does this work on Windows for borodust's issue?
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2017-09-09T18:13:29Z pjb: I don't know.  Try it and tell us!
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2017-09-09T18:18:21Z borodust: Ober: nah, nope
2017-09-09T18:18:32Z borodust: trivial-gamekit's example
2017-09-09T18:18:51Z borodust: Ober: https://github.com/borodust/hello-gamekit
2017-09-09T18:19:47Z borodust: it confirmed to work on linux and macos, but it is quite hard to find win-running common lisper :)
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2017-09-09T18:31:49Z cryptopsy: i need help installing clisp-2.44 in gentoo
2017-09-09T18:32:15Z cryptopsy: has anyone managed to emerge it in gentoo?
2017-09-09T18:33:49Z borodust: cryptopsy: was there any particular reason to use clisp? would sbcl will work for your case?
2017-09-09T18:34:41Z cryptopsy: borodust: i am just taking it for stumpwm, i think that will work with sbcl too, but i wasnt able to get sbcl to compile either
2017-09-09T18:34:52Z borodust: oh
2017-09-09T18:35:06Z cryptopsy: i've been told that stump is only using sbcl nowadays, what happende to clisp is it deprecated?
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2017-09-09T18:36:38Z borodust: cryptopsy: i think it is safe to call development to be stalled
2017-09-09T18:36:47Z borodust: *its dev
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2017-09-09T18:41:00Z _death: cryptopsy: the stumpwm maintainers decided to remove clisp support
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2017-09-09T18:46:17Z cryptopsy: _death: source?
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2017-09-09T18:47:16Z _death: the commit log?
2017-09-09T18:47:39Z cryptopsy: i dont understand the sbcl or stumpwm debugging prompt where i have to press a number for [RETRY] [CONTINUE] etc. are those just warnings?
2017-09-09T18:47:47Z cryptopsy: _death: some kind of proof so i can file a bug
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2017-09-09T18:47:59Z cryptopsy: in gentoo, stumpwm still has clisp use flag
2017-09-09T18:48:14Z cryptopsy: if they dropped support for clisp it shouldn't be there
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2017-09-09T18:50:48Z _death: cryptopsy: there was also this recent post.. https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/stumpwm-devel/2017-07/msg00002.html
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2017-09-09T18:53:40Z cryptopsy: _death: tnx
2017-09-09T18:54:38Z _death: cryptopsy: these options are restarts.. some error has occurred and the debugger was invoked.. you can retry the failed operation or try to ignore it and continue..
2017-09-09T18:54:58Z cryptopsy: i did but then it just crashes unexpectedly
2017-09-09T18:55:11Z cryptopsy: if i leave it alone i see the Load averge fluctuating suggesting maybe its still working?
2017-09-09T18:55:15Z _death: cryptopsy: this is why you should instead understand the error
2017-09-09T18:55:43Z cryptopsy: wheres the error?
2017-09-09T18:55:57Z _death: cryptopsy: it's supposed to be printed above the restarts
2017-09-09T18:56:05Z cryptopsy: https://i.imgur.com/kLga849.png
2017-09-09T18:56:43Z _death: you're showing only a portion of the text
2017-09-09T18:57:00Z cryptopsy: https://i.imgur.com/tJRdJ8G.png
2017-09-09T18:57:13Z cryptopsy: where it says 'usr em stumpwm' thats where the building starts
2017-09-09T18:57:23Z cryptopsy: usr is PWD, em stumpwm is the command
2017-09-09T18:57:55Z _death: maybe your script or whatever redirects output to somewhere else
2017-09-09T18:58:30Z cryptopsy: if it fails to build i will ahve a message telling me where the output went
2017-09-09T18:58:40Z cryptopsy: but right now its the sbcl debugger confusing everything
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2017-09-09T18:59:35Z _death: you could try (sb-ext:quit :unix-status 1) to exit with an error
2017-09-09T19:00:18Z cryptopsy: https://i.imgur.com/8FKHBt2.png
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2017-09-09T19:03:11Z _death: I suggest trying to manually build it without something that obscures part of the output
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2017-09-09T19:04:15Z cryptopsy: the pkg manager has to build it so i can file a bug if it fails, so it can keep it up to date, etc
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2017-09-09T19:06:34Z _death: well, my mindset is fixing bugs rather than reporting them
2017-09-09T19:08:22Z cryptopsy: the bug could be anywhere in the build process
2017-09-09T19:08:29Z cryptopsy: since the package manager sets up dependencies and the environment
2017-09-09T19:08:50Z cryptopsy: so you can have a mismatch of dep version to the latest stumpwm or sbcl or whatever
2017-09-09T19:09:18Z cryptopsy: everyone's mindset is fixing bugs because bugs stop them from performing their desired function
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2017-09-09T19:10:37Z _death: ok.. not familiar enough with gentoo to be of help
2017-09-09T19:12:13Z cryptopsy: it should fail on its own i presure, if the debugger output are errors and not warnings
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2017-09-09T19:24:45Z phoe: I need help with FAST-IO.
2017-09-09T19:24:58Z phoe: I want to write into a buffer, but I don't know its size ahead of time.
2017-09-09T19:25:22Z phoe: How can I create such a "resizable" buffer?
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2017-09-09T19:27:46Z cryptopsy: write a function to figure out the size on the fly
2017-09-09T19:30:46Z Shinmera: phoe: Where does the buffer go in the end?
2017-09-09T19:31:01Z Shinmera: Like, what are you buffering?
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2017-09-09T19:35:19Z phoe: Shinmera: I want to write something to a file.
2017-09-09T19:35:43Z phoe: Using fast-io's functions for writing little/big endian unsigned/signed 8/16/32/64bit bytes.
2017-09-09T19:36:13Z Shinmera: phoe: Why do you not just use with-fast-output then?
2017-09-09T19:36:50Z phoe: Shinmera: oh. Does it create a buffer that's unlimited in size?
2017-09-09T19:37:06Z Shinmera: it buffers internally and writes to file as appropriate
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2017-09-09T19:38:52Z phoe: Got it. Thanks.
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2017-09-09T19:43:09Z pjb: cryptopsy: why do you want 2.44?  Current version of clisp is 2.49!
2017-09-09T19:43:54Z pjb: cryptopsy: unfortunately, I don't remember how well clisp could be emerged, I've not used gentoo for several years. But in any case, I compile my CL implementations myself…
2017-09-09T19:44:14Z cryptopsy: pjb: i just want stumpwm, i have sbcl now
2017-09-09T19:44:14Z pjb: cryptopsy: I would advise you to download the sources and configure and built it yourself.
2017-09-09T19:44:27Z pjb: sbcl is good for stumpwm.
2017-09-09T19:44:41Z cryptopsy: im still waiting for it to finish building without throwing defbugger
2017-09-09T19:45:14Z pjb: If you have difficulties, try ccl.
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2017-09-09T19:45:34Z cryptopsy: what's ccl?
2017-09-09T19:47:20Z pjb: another CL implementation. https://ccl.clozure.com/download.html
2017-09-09T19:47:49Z pjb: cryptopsy: now, the problem certainly comes from the fact that you're using lisp stuff installed by your linux distribution.  This never works well…
2017-09-09T19:48:24Z pjb: cryptopsy: uninstall all lisp related things with your package manager, and then reinstall stuff manually, following instructions at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2017-09-09T19:49:18Z pjb: cryptopsy: alternatively, you may perhaps go by by removing all reference to gentoo stuff from your rc files.
2017-09-09T19:49:49Z pjb: don't load /etc/sbclrc, don't load /etc/common-lisp/gentoo-init.lisp etc.
2017-09-09T19:53:27Z phoe: What is the simplest way to get a list of all bound class-direct-slots and their values of an instance?
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2017-09-09T19:55:15Z Shinmera: (loop for s in (c2mop:class-direct-slots (class-of o)) for n = (c2mop:slot-definition-name s) when (slot-boundp o n) collect (slot-value o n))
2017-09-09T20:02:14Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355448
2017-09-09T20:02:24Z phoe: I was trying something like that, actually, and failed.
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2017-09-09T20:02:57Z Shinmera: Well, now you know
2017-09-09T20:03:11Z phoe: Shinmera: yes, thanks.
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2017-09-09T20:18:19Z cryptopsy: pjb:  i dont understand the question
2017-09-09T20:18:42Z pjb: What question?
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2017-09-09T20:23:54Z cryptopsy: ' This never works well?'
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2017-09-09T20:30:12Z _death: (last (map 'list #'char-name "This never works well…")) => ("HORIZONTAL_ELLIPSIS")
2017-09-09T20:32:55Z pjb: ^
2017-09-09T20:33:06Z pjb: cryptopsy: you need a better irc client, able to decode utf-8.
2017-09-09T20:34:16Z Shinmera: Or better fonts.
2017-09-09T20:35:24Z cryptopsy: pjb: using weechat
2017-09-09T20:35:38Z Shinmera: Better fonts then
2017-09-09T20:40:10Z pjb: use emacs!
2017-09-09T20:40:53Z cryptopsy: only with xah-fly-keys
2017-09-09T20:41:08Z Shinmera: emacs won't help if you don't have any fonts that cover unicode.
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2017-09-09T21:21:11Z antonv: who knows where can I find the sources of lisppaste?
2017-09-09T21:22:00Z antonv: I mean http://paste.lisp.org/
2017-09-09T21:22:39Z antonv: The Poject Home link at the bottom leads to a webpage with all links invalid
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2017-09-09T21:48:18Z antonv: Here:https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots
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2017-09-09T22:44:27Z phoe: I have a class object. How can I get its name using MOP?
2017-09-09T22:44:44Z phoe: As in, the symbol.
2017-09-09T22:44:46Z Shinmera: clhs class-name
2017-09-09T22:44:57Z Shinmera: Or maybe it was in mop after all
2017-09-09T22:45:08Z phoe: Ooh. No, it's in CLHS.
2017-09-09T22:45:14Z phoe: clhs car
2017-09-09T22:45:15Z Shinmera: oh yeah specbot is gone
2017-09-09T22:45:21Z Shinmera: ::clhs class-name
2017-09-09T22:45:23Z Colleen: Clhs: standard generic function class-name http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_class_.htm
2017-09-09T22:45:44Z Shinmera: And I'm gone off to bed. Night.
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2017-09-09T23:47:49Z jmercouris: let's say I have a list of structs and I want to make a new list composed of one of the struct fields. e.g. given a struct list of cars, with attr color, I'd like a list of all of the colors that appear in that list
2017-09-09T23:47:54Z jmercouris: what's the best way to do this?
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2017-09-09T23:49:12Z didi: jmercouris: `mapcar'?
2017-09-09T23:49:50Z jmercouris: didi: that could work, let me give it a try, thank you
2017-09-09T23:49:56Z didi: np
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2017-09-09T23:57:47Z jmercouris: didi: update, it worked!
2017-09-09T23:58:02Z didi: jmercouris: Nice.
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2017-09-10T02:52:01Z jmercouris: hello everyone, I have a struct like this (defstruct xyz attr)
2017-09-10T02:52:26Z jmercouris: when I do (print (xyz-attr struct_instance)) it works
2017-09-10T02:52:38Z jmercouris: but if I try to do (setf (xyz-attr struct_instance) "some_value)
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2017-09-10T02:53:14Z jmercouris: I get the following "The function (SETF PACKAGE::XYZ-ATTR) is undefined."
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2017-09-10T03:03:05Z Bike: no :read-only?
2017-09-10T03:03:26Z Bike: and you do this in the same environment? like same *package*?
2017-09-10T03:03:41Z jmercouris: yeah, both files have (in-package :package) at the top
2017-09-10T03:03:58Z jmercouris: :read-only has not been set
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2017-09-10T03:14:34Z stylewarning: jmercouris: it's maybe easier if you show us a failing case directly
2017-09-10T03:14:50Z jmercouris: stylewarning: ok, let me push my changes one second
2017-09-10T03:16:17Z jmercouris: stylewarning: here is where the struct is defined: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/minibuffer-completion/next/lisp/buffer.lisp
2017-09-10T03:16:49Z jmercouris: stylewarning: here is where the setf is called in set-url-buffer: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/minibuffer-completion/next/lisp/document-mode.lisp
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2017-09-10T03:18:36Z iqubic: What is the nEXT-Browser supposed to do?
2017-09-10T03:18:46Z jmercouris: iqubic: in this context or in general?
2017-09-10T03:18:55Z iqubic: In general.
2017-09-10T03:19:03Z jmercouris: it is a web browser built in common lisp
2017-09-10T03:19:14Z jmercouris: it's designed for infinite customizability
2017-09-10T03:19:18Z holycow: jmercouris: are you the author?
2017-09-10T03:19:23Z jmercouris: I am the author
2017-09-10T03:19:34Z holycow: dude, sweet.  i am about to download it and try it.
2017-09-10T03:19:36Z iqubic: Does it work? Can I download it now?
2017-09-10T03:19:42Z jmercouris: it is extremely alpha right now
2017-09-10T03:19:47Z holycow: don't care.  :)
2017-09-10T03:19:51Z jmercouris: you can clone it and it should allow you to just "open urls"
2017-09-10T03:19:52Z iqubic: I'm still going to try it.
2017-09-10T03:20:05Z jmercouris: the reason I'm trying to fix this bug is so i can have an example of fuzzy buffer completion
2017-09-10T03:20:09Z holycow: jmercouris: your idea about history being a tree, *BRAVO*
2017-09-10T03:20:12Z holycow: finally, someone gets it
2017-09-10T03:20:17Z jmercouris: thanks :D
2017-09-10T03:20:26Z holycow: what render engine are you using?
2017-09-10T03:20:30Z jmercouris: I've got a whole roadmap of really cool features I haven't published yet
2017-09-10T03:20:34Z jmercouris: render engine = qtwebkit
2017-09-10T03:20:40Z jmercouris: it's cross platform built with ecl and eql
2017-09-10T03:20:45Z holycow: neat
2017-09-10T03:20:53Z iqubic: And how are you getting the data from the internet?
2017-09-10T03:21:05Z jmercouris: the qtwebview automatically makes the requests
2017-09-10T03:21:09Z stylewarning: jmercouris: from these files, SETF BUFFER-NAME looks fine. Is buffer.lisp being compiled and loaded?
2017-09-10T03:21:25Z jmercouris: as far as I know buffer.lisp is within the asd, so, it should be loaded
2017-09-10T03:21:31Z jmercouris: otherwise I couldn't run any of its' functions
2017-09-10T03:21:34Z jmercouris: and yet I can
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2017-09-10T03:22:23Z stylewarning: document-mode.lisp is not though, right?
2017-09-10T03:22:29Z iqubic: I've always wanted to make a browser, but I've never know where to start
2017-09-10T03:22:40Z jmercouris: iqubic: you can start with the source code and make a pr :P
2017-09-10T03:22:52Z iqubic: For nEXT?
2017-09-10T03:22:55Z jmercouris: sure :D
2017-09-10T03:23:01Z iqubic: Do you need help with it?
2017-09-10T03:23:03Z jmercouris: stylewarning: document mode is also loaded and in the asd
2017-09-10T03:23:08Z jmercouris: iqubic: yeah, definitely
2017-09-10T03:23:12Z jmercouris: I'm very much a CL noob
2017-09-10T03:23:24Z iqubic: jmercouris: I am also a CL noob.
2017-09-10T03:23:34Z mfiano: stylewarning: Did you have a video you did a few years ago about lisp math? Maybe I am confusing you with someone else
2017-09-10T03:24:03Z stylewarning: mfiano: quite a few years ago yes, excursions in mathematics using Lisp
2017-09-10T03:24:14Z stylewarning: Or maybe you're referring to my lisp math live coding
2017-09-10T03:24:38Z mfiano: Oh I just started watching excursions :) I didn't know that was yours, so must be the other one then...where is that?
2017-09-10T03:25:02Z stylewarning: There's a lot
2017-09-10T03:25:31Z iqubic: Do you have a link to your videos stylewarning. I'd like to look at them.
2017-09-10T03:25:39Z mfiano: Are they under a particular YouTube account or do I have to dig for them? :)
2017-09-10T03:25:42Z jmercouris: I just dont understand why I'm getting "The function (SETF NEXT::BUFFER-NAME) is undefined."
2017-09-10T03:26:21Z jmercouris: especially when a (print buffer-name buffer) statement in that exact spot also works
2017-09-10T03:26:45Z stylewarning: mfiano: e.g. https://youtu.be/v6iOtLinE2c or https://youtu.be/cdw3Nhev54c
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2017-09-10T03:27:11Z mfiano: Ah yes, that is exactly what I was remembering. Thanks
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2017-09-10T03:30:03Z jmercouris: stylewarning: any ideas?
2017-09-10T03:30:52Z jmercouris: how can it be that (print (buffer-name buffer)) ;; works (setf (buffer-name new-buffer) "new-name") ;; breaks
2017-09-10T03:30:54Z stylewarning: jmercouris: I don't have any ideas. It looks like it should work very straightforwardly. Does #'(setf buffer-name) in the REPL give you anything
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2017-09-10T03:31:17Z jmercouris: stylewarning: let me try that one sec
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2017-09-10T03:31:53Z jmercouris: says the function is undefinied
2017-09-10T03:32:33Z stylewarning: What if you defstruct in the REPL and try again
2017-09-10T03:32:54Z stylewarning: also (describe 'buffer)
2017-09-10T03:33:11Z jmercouris: it says
2017-09-10T03:33:20Z jmercouris: BUFFER - internal symbol in COMMON-LISP-USER package
2017-09-10T03:33:50Z stylewarning: You're in the wrong package to test the #' thing
2017-09-10T03:34:23Z jmercouris: what do you mean?
2017-09-10T03:34:40Z stylewarning: You need to be (in-package :next)
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2017-09-10T03:35:36Z jmercouris: stylewarning: here's the response: https://pastebin.com/SPhCX4Ar
2017-09-10T03:36:03Z stylewarning: So it knows about the struct
2017-09-10T03:36:23Z stylewarning: And #'(setf buffer-name) still fails?
2017-09-10T03:36:44Z jmercouris: yeah
2017-09-10T03:36:48Z jmercouris: it still says undefined
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2017-09-10T03:37:31Z stylewarning: I guess it might not be a function, just an expansion
2017-09-10T03:37:36Z jmercouris: maybe it's a sign from the CLOS deities
2017-09-10T03:37:53Z jmercouris: stylewarning: what does that mean?
2017-09-10T03:38:12Z jmercouris: couldn't i use expand-macro to test that?
2017-09-10T03:38:13Z stylewarning: Does (let ((b (make-buffer))) (setf (buffer-name b) t)) work?
2017-09-10T03:38:53Z jmercouris: yes, that works
2017-09-10T03:39:21Z stylewarning: So it is defined.
2017-09-10T03:39:52Z jmercouris: I'm thinking about starting a screen cast so you can just easily see what's on my screen
2017-09-10T03:44:43Z stylewarning: jmercouris: can you start with a fresh REPL and just paste everything from start to finish?
2017-09-10T03:44:54Z jmercouris: yeah, one sec, I'm trying to figure out the stream
2017-09-10T03:44:58Z stylewarning: Incl steps to load next
2017-09-10T03:45:01Z jmercouris: yep
2017-09-10T03:46:58Z jmercouris: here's the link https://hangouts.google.com/call/A72Hx55LuPyO_q_SQQ0ZAAkE
2017-09-10T03:47:08Z jmercouris: let me know if you can see my desktop
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2017-09-10T03:48:40Z jmercouris: stylewarning: is it working?
2017-09-10T03:49:21Z stylewarning: I can't access it ATM
2017-09-10T03:49:27Z jmercouris: :\
2017-09-10T03:49:41Z jmercouris: ok, let me go through the steps again from start to finish
2017-09-10T03:49:48Z jmercouris: if I make a youtube video would that work?
2017-09-10T03:49:54Z stylewarning: (Preparing for a flight.)
2017-09-10T03:49:58Z jmercouris: ah okay
2017-09-10T03:50:05Z jmercouris: understood, thank you for your help then
2017-09-10T03:50:07Z stylewarning: It's fine if you just show the REPL interaction from start to finish
2017-09-10T03:50:10Z jmercouris: have a safe trip
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2017-09-10T03:50:24Z jmercouris: I don't load it starting from the repl, but I can set it up to do that
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2017-09-10T03:50:56Z stylewarning: How are you loading the file that is failing?
2017-09-10T03:51:32Z jmercouris: I load the file using two things, an asdf, and then I push to the central registry
2017-09-10T03:51:51Z jmercouris: I call this file: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/run.lisp
2017-09-10T03:52:02Z jmercouris: which loads this definition: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/next.asd
2017-09-10T03:52:45Z stylewarning: document-mode is loaded *before* buffer
2017-09-10T03:52:55Z jmercouris: why should it matter?
2017-09-10T03:53:00Z jmercouris: is it not just loading the symbols into a table?
2017-09-10T03:53:00Z stylewarning: Which means the compiler doesn't know how to macroexpand it
2017-09-10T03:53:17Z jmercouris: my program starts fine, everything loads
2017-09-10T03:53:18Z stylewarning: The SETF is a macroexpansion in this case, not a function call
2017-09-10T03:53:21Z jmercouris: it is only when i invoke the function
2017-09-10T03:53:38Z stylewarning: Yes it's trying to call a function named (SETF BUFFER-NAME)
2017-09-10T03:53:48Z stylewarning: But no such function exists at the time it's attempted
2017-09-10T03:53:57Z jmercouris: but that doesn't make sense though
2017-09-10T03:54:06Z jmercouris: OH I SEE
2017-09-10T03:54:12Z jmercouris: you are saying that setf is not a function, but a macro
2017-09-10T03:54:12Z stylewarning: SETF can be called as a function, or expanded as a macro
2017-09-10T03:54:16Z stylewarning: Yes
2017-09-10T03:54:25Z jmercouris: isn't that some implementation specific detail?
2017-09-10T03:54:28Z jmercouris: how can i know if it is a macro?
2017-09-10T03:54:47Z stylewarning: By checking if #'(SETF FOO) exists
2017-09-10T03:55:19Z jmercouris: and would it mean it is a macro if it returns t or nil?
2017-09-10T03:55:37Z stylewarning: It would return a function object if it's a function
2017-09-10T03:55:40Z stylewarning: Or error otherwise.
2017-09-10T03:55:52Z stylewarning: If it errors, then it's probably a macro. You can be extra sure by checking the SETF expansion, which I don't recall how to do off the top of my head.
2017-09-10T03:56:03Z stylewarning: Something like GET-SETF-EXPANSION
2017-09-10T03:56:30Z jmercouris: stylewarning: ok, let me try swapping the load order and see what happens
2017-09-10T03:56:47Z iqubic: try (macroexpand (setf foo))
2017-09-10T03:56:54Z iqubic: With some valid foo
2017-09-10T03:56:59Z stylewarning: Anyway, it seems ECL uses SETF expansions for DEFSTRUCT accessors, not functions named (SETF BUFFER-*)
2017-09-10T03:57:06Z stylewarning: iqubic that won't work
2017-09-10T03:57:09Z jmercouris: you know that's very strange, now I got a segfault
2017-09-10T03:57:18Z iqubic: stylewarning: why not?
2017-09-10T03:57:31Z jmercouris: "access to invalid or protected memory address"
2017-09-10T03:58:32Z stylewarning: Where?
2017-09-10T03:58:44Z jmercouris: in my setf
2017-09-10T03:59:00Z stylewarning: check-type that it's a buffer
2017-09-10T03:59:10Z jmercouris: interesting, I just restarted the program, and this time it worked
2017-09-10T03:59:17Z stylewarning: and (declaim (optimize debug safety)$ at the top
2017-09-10T04:00:40Z jmercouris: stylewarning: thank you for your help
2017-09-10T04:00:45Z jmercouris: i would have never questioned that setf was a function
2017-09-10T04:02:24Z stylewarning: Of course, happy to help when I can
2017-09-10T04:02:42Z jmercouris: anyways, after this whole debacle, I'm more convinced that version 0.02 must use clos instead of structs :D
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2017-09-10T04:47:26Z iqubic: What is the difference between clos and structs?
2017-09-10T04:52:00Z godratio: you ever program c before?
2017-09-10T04:52:05Z godratio: or c++ or c#
2017-09-10T04:53:07Z iqubic: Me? Yeah I have used C++ in the past.
2017-09-10T04:57:00Z stylewarning: the real question to ask is "what is the difference between CLOS classes and structures?"
2017-09-10T04:57:59Z stylewarning: The shortest and easiest answer id give is that CLOS classes are much more dynamic and flexible than structures, the latter of which are pretty bare-bones in terms of representing composite data
2017-09-10T05:00:56Z stylewarning: One might use structures instead of classes if: 1. The data are relatively simple and doesn't need to be extended, 2. The data need to be accessed and stored most efficiently, 3. The data doesn't need to be accessed with any sort of generic function/protocol
2017-09-10T05:01:19Z stylewarning: I typically like structures for functional programming and classes for object oriented programming.
2017-09-10T05:04:05Z iqubic: What does CLOS stand for?
2017-09-10T05:05:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-10T05:05:25Z beach: Common Lisp Object System.
2017-09-10T05:05:55Z iqubic: Morning Beach
2017-09-10T05:06:17Z iqubic: Ah, I see.
2017-09-10T05:07:55Z beach: Technically, there is no such thing as a "CLOS class".  All classes are CLOS classes and every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class.
2017-09-10T05:09:22Z beach: What people sometimes refer to as a "CLOS class" should be referred to as a "standard class".
2017-09-10T05:10:11Z iqubic: I don't know anything about CLOS.
2017-09-10T05:10:30Z iqubic: Soo.
2017-09-10T05:10:57Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
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2017-09-10T05:11:20Z iqubic: Why? I'm new to lisp. I'm still learning the language.
2017-09-10T05:12:21Z beach: OK.
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2017-09-10T05:13:00Z stylewarning: iqubic: I would take beach's comment positively, like you have something grand waiting for discovery :)
2017-09-10T05:13:28Z beach: stylewarning: Thanks!
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2017-09-10T05:14:11Z iqubic: Ah. I think that Macros are the greatest part of Lisp already.
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2017-09-10T05:14:41Z beach: That's just because you don't know anything about CLOS. :)
2017-09-10T05:14:55Z iqubic: Oh.
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2017-09-10T05:15:11Z iqubic: You got a good clos tutorial I can look at.
2017-09-10T05:15:23Z stylewarning: Macro enlightenment took me a few years, to understand what their purpose /really/ is.
2017-09-10T05:15:29Z mfiano is now known as Guest74385
2017-09-10T05:15:46Z stylewarning: iqubic: PCL or the CLOS book are good.
2017-09-10T05:15:48Z iqubic: stylewarning: I think I understand what macros are forl
2017-09-10T05:15:54Z stylewarning: The latter is very short and readable
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2017-09-10T05:16:06Z iqubic: stylewarning: I'm reading PCL currently. Does that cover CLOS?
2017-09-10T05:16:35Z stylewarning: Yes
2017-09-10T05:16:39Z beach: It covers the basic stuff.
2017-09-10T05:16:54Z stylewarning: I recommend this too: Object-Oriented Programming in COMMON LISP: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS https://www.amazon.com/dp/0201175894/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_jRmTzbVTFNSJG
2017-09-10T05:17:16Z iqubic: I don't really want to spend any money right now.
2017-09-10T05:17:35Z iqubic: I don't have any money to spare ATM.
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2017-09-10T05:20:50Z godratio: ok wtf why cant you use char= nil char to compare if a char is nil
2017-09-10T05:21:31Z mfiano_ is now known as axion
2017-09-10T05:21:56Z beach: godratio: Characters can't be NIL.  NIL is not a character.
2017-09-10T05:22:01Z axion is now known as Guest41667
2017-09-10T05:22:36Z iqubic: Is there a way to check if a given list is nil?
2017-09-10T05:22:46Z beach: clhs null
2017-09-10T05:22:49Z godratio: hmm
2017-09-10T05:23:02Z beach: Where is specbot?
2017-09-10T05:23:04Z godratio: ok so hwo the hell are we suppode to check if its  a valid char
2017-09-10T05:23:22Z godratio: cant use (= char nil)
2017-09-10T05:23:27Z godratio: not a number
2017-09-10T05:23:33Z godratio: its not a list either
2017-09-10T05:23:43Z godratio: very arbiturary
2017-09-10T05:23:52Z beach: iqubic: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_null.htm
2017-09-10T05:24:05Z stylewarning: (characterp c) to check if it's a character
2017-09-10T05:24:13Z beach: godratio: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_chp.htm#characterp
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2017-09-10T05:24:53Z stylewarning: godratio: = is for numbers and nothing else. Not characters, not symbols
2017-09-10T05:24:56Z godratio: ahh ok so will have to do type checking in cases like these.
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2017-09-10T05:25:21Z godratio: hmm ok i am used to do just checking if a pointer is null had me mixed up
2017-09-10T05:25:28Z godratio: for any type
2017-09-10T05:25:38Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2017-09-10T05:25:39Z godratio: beach: is the man
2017-09-10T05:25:41Z godratio: hahaha
2017-09-10T05:25:53Z godratio: dont be sorry pointers are super convienent and nice
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2017-09-10T05:26:26Z godratio: no need to worrry about types for simple tings like this.  which i like but lisp this is also not that bad just have to learn the lisp rules
2017-09-10T05:26:46Z stylewarning: NIL is not like NULL in C
2017-09-10T05:27:04Z stylewarning: You don't have to expect everything being possibly NIL.
2017-09-10T05:27:05Z beach: godratio: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics" which means that, semantically, every object is manipulated through a reference (or pointer) to it.
2017-09-10T05:27:06Z iqubic: Nil is the samething as false, more or les
2017-09-10T05:27:35Z beach: godratio: So, NIL is (a reference to) an object as well.
2017-09-10T05:27:53Z iqubic: NIL just refers to the false object
2017-09-10T05:28:02Z aeth: NIL in Lisp is just false and the empty list.
2017-09-10T05:28:22Z stylewarning: And the symbol and the type!
2017-09-10T05:28:35Z beach: godratio: NIL in Common Lisp can is used for three things: It can mean the Boolean value false, it can mean the empty list, and it can be a symbol.
2017-09-10T05:29:06Z aeth: Ah, good point, I forgot about the symbol.
2017-09-10T05:29:14Z iqubic: Why would you need a nil symbol ever?
2017-09-10T05:30:33Z stylewarning: It's mostly historical
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2017-09-10T05:31:12Z jmercouris: let's say I do a (ql:quickload :cl-strings)
2017-09-10T05:31:23Z jmercouris: why does (use-package :cl-strings) throw an error?
2017-09-10T05:31:42Z stylewarning: because packages and systems might be named differently
2017-09-10T05:31:45Z beach: jmercouris: What you quickload is not a package.
2017-09-10T05:31:51Z beach: jmercouris: It is called a "system".
2017-09-10T05:31:53Z stylewarning: quickload loads ASDF systems
2017-09-10T05:32:17Z jmercouris: then why does the page here: https://github.com/diogoalexandrefranco/cl-strings tell one to do use-package?
2017-09-10T05:32:54Z beach: jmercouris: Bad advice.
2017-09-10T05:33:13Z jmercouris: what would be the proper way to load the symbols into my repl?
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2017-09-10T05:33:41Z stylewarning: You can access them fine from the right package
2017-09-10T05:33:57Z jmercouris: stylewarning: then I have to prepend the prefix right?
2017-09-10T05:34:07Z jmercouris: how can I not prepend the prefix?
2017-09-10T05:34:49Z beach: It is best to use a prefix.
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2017-09-10T05:35:00Z jmercouris: always?
2017-09-10T05:35:36Z jmercouris: I guess too many opportunities for collision of just importing all of the symbols from a package, right?
2017-09-10T05:35:40Z iqubic: what if you want to use those symbols in a program?
2017-09-10T05:36:23Z godratio: wth now my return-from is not picking up that its in a defun block
2017-09-10T05:36:37Z godratio: and saying return-from is nil
2017-09-10T05:37:01Z godratio: (defun IsAlphaNumeric (Char)
2017-09-10T05:37:02Z godratio:   "Test if the char is between 0-9 a-z A-Z"
2017-09-10T05:37:03Z godratio:   (if(characterp Char)
2017-09-10T05:37:04Z godratio:      (return))
2017-09-10T05:37:07Z godratio: why is that illegal
2017-09-10T05:37:21Z aeth: CL is one of those languages where the return is usually implicit.
2017-09-10T05:37:42Z jmercouris: godratio: I believe you have to specify what you are returning from if you use return-from
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2017-09-10T05:38:17Z iqubic: (if (characterp char) t nil) is what I'd do there.
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2017-09-10T05:39:23Z beach: godratio: Please don't use CamelCase names in Common Lisp.
2017-09-10T05:39:33Z godratio: hmm yes but the documentation says default is nil and that if your are in a defun block the first argument of the block name
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2017-09-10T05:39:55Z godratio: ahh hehe yeah i am changing my habit
2017-09-10T05:40:06Z godratio: in lisp
2017-09-10T05:40:10Z aeth: godratio: If you're just trying to return something from a defun, you don't need return. It will return the last line's final result.
2017-09-10T05:40:22Z beach: godratio: You typically don't need RETURN in Common Lisp.  The value of the last form is returned by a function.
2017-09-10T05:40:28Z godratio: yeah im trying to early return if a nil char is passed in
2017-09-10T05:40:47Z beach: godratio: There is no such thing as a "nil char".
2017-09-10T05:40:50Z aeth: (sorry, last form, not last line, beach is right)
2017-09-10T05:41:03Z iqubic: godratio: a char is never nil in CL
2017-09-10T05:41:13Z iqubic: nil is closer to false in CL.
2017-09-10T05:41:33Z iqubic: This was just discussed a few minutes ago.
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2017-09-10T05:43:02Z aeth: CL has a real type system, rather than a type system where everything's ruined by the presence of null like far too many languages.
2017-09-10T05:43:04Z godratio: well i looping through a list and passing in the current element of the list and then checking if its alpha numberic so anything can get passed in so  ilike the idea to check if its char type. and if not return nil
2017-09-10T05:43:48Z godratio: aeth: Sounds good I have not elipsed my mentaltity to grasp the signifgance of that yet
2017-09-10T05:43:51Z jmercouris: I still don't understand, how do I use a system i've installed via quicklisp, how can I know what the package is named?
2017-09-10T05:44:03Z beach: godratio: (if (characterp thing) nil (loop ...))
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2017-09-10T05:44:56Z beach: jmercouris: You read the documentation.
2017-09-10T05:45:39Z jmercouris: beach: damn :\
2017-09-10T05:46:10Z godratio: beach: Dont you mean (if (characterp char) nill (return) (loop…)
2017-09-10T05:46:45Z beach: godratio: Yes, sorry, (if (characterp thing) (loop ...) nil)
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2017-09-10T05:50:49Z godratio: beach: Thanks yes I could get rid of that return now and just give back true or false in that IsWhiteSpace function now
2017-09-10T05:52:31Z beach: godratio: Please don't use CamelCase for names in Common Lisp.
2017-09-10T05:52:59Z godratio: not too shabby in this case compared to c and it does actually check if its a really char which means you can pass anything to it and will return false correctly compared to the equilavent c function which wouldnt know about the type
2017-09-10T05:53:54Z godratio: ok ok i hear you i will adjust i am very pragmatica person.  I want to use CamelCase for function names  and this_notation for data types
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2017-09-10T05:54:16Z godratio: but i ma trying out the lisp way so i can read others code better
2017-09-10T05:54:20Z beach: godratio: I suggest you change what you want, at least when you use Common Lisp.
2017-09-10T05:54:21Z godratio: and visa versa
2017-09-10T05:54:37Z godratio: agreed
2017-09-10T05:54:39Z aeth: in-lisp-we-all-use-lower-case-and-hyphens
2017-09-10T05:54:49Z aeth: CamelCaseIsHarderToRead
2017-09-10T05:54:57Z godratio: haha okie-dokie I will conform
2017-09-10T05:55:02Z Ober: hyphens ftw
2017-09-10T05:55:12Z aeth: hypens work in Lisp because ' ' is significant.
2017-09-10T05:55:23Z godratio: ‘ ‘ empty char?
2017-09-10T05:55:28Z aeth: space
2017-09-10T05:55:39Z Ober: oh right. list
2017-09-10T05:55:40Z godratio: you mean #\Space
2017-09-10T05:55:41Z godratio: hehe
2017-09-10T05:56:05Z godratio: I like that about lisp very clean char notation.
2017-09-10T05:56:09Z aeth: hyphens don't work in most langauges because lazy programmers want to do "1+1" instead of "1 + 1" or "(+ 1 1)" or "1 1 +"
2017-09-10T05:56:56Z aeth: Most languages can't tell if foo-bar is foo - bar or the symbol foo-bar. It's not ambiguous in Lisp
2017-09-10T05:57:14Z godratio: yes I like the polis notation style and its easier to as I have noticed it seems easir to apply say some functionality across a range of operands much simpler in lisp than in c like languages
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2017-09-10T06:02:45Z Kovalski: So far the story: the church of emacs is seducing me with promises of salvation, but I must press on. Is there a way, dear lispers, that I may continue with VIM and still be happy?
2017-09-10T06:02:59Z jmercouris: Kovalski: spacemacs
2017-09-10T06:03:10Z jmercouris: Kovalski: also, #emacs
2017-09-10T06:03:45Z Kovalski: In relation with lisp development, hence I'm asking here.
2017-09-10T06:04:29Z jmercouris: Kovalski: just use emacs instead, what's the advantage of vim when you can use all vi keybindings?
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2017-09-10T06:05:06Z aeth: emacs + slime is the IDE for Common Lisp
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2017-09-10T06:05:20Z aeth: (unless you want to buy a commercial implementation)
2017-09-10T06:06:41Z Kovalski: jmercouris, I've some bad childhood memories of emacs. What's wrong with just vim?
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2017-09-10T06:06:57Z Kovalski: aeth, I've heard that a lot.
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2017-09-10T06:07:29Z stylewarning: Lisp shouldn't be edited as "just plaintext". And it happens that Emacs/Slime/paredit have the most use and support
2017-09-10T06:07:42Z stylewarning: And not a lot of investment as occurred in other modes of use
2017-09-10T06:08:37Z stylewarning: (Which I still contend is the biggest hurdle for newcomers.)
2017-09-10T06:08:46Z Kovalski: Could it be a sign that slime on Arch is flagged out dated?
2017-09-10T06:09:03Z jmercouris: Kovalski: arch is a disease
2017-09-10T06:09:23Z Kovalski: jmercouris, you don't know what you're talking about.
2017-09-10T06:09:27Z stylewarning: slime should be installed with quicklisp
2017-09-10T06:09:35Z stylewarning: not with your package manager
2017-09-10T06:09:56Z Kovalski: stylewarning, I get that, I'm just so reluctant.
2017-09-10T06:10:07Z godratio: one thing about slime debugging is its not obvious hwo to go about debugging your code
2017-09-10T06:10:18Z godratio: slightly off topic tho
2017-09-10T06:10:22Z stylewarning: Kovalski: reluctant about which part
2017-09-10T06:10:57Z Kovalski: stylewarning, about installing emacs.
2017-09-10T06:11:18Z Kovalski: stylewarning, tell me, tell me stylewarning, would emacs love me?
2017-09-10T06:11:23Z jmercouris: stylewarning: I think he's just baiting you
2017-09-10T06:11:39Z stylewarning: Yeah I can understand. But, unless you pay, it's the best supported Lisp IDE.
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2017-09-10T06:12:02Z stylewarning: Otherwise you'll get discouraged by ungooglable issues
2017-09-10T06:12:42Z Kovalski: stylewarning, I understand, *sigh*, you gotta do what you gotta do.
2017-09-10T06:12:46Z stylewarning: It's a sad state of affairs for a language so old and robust.
2017-09-10T06:13:04Z stylewarning: I hope someone will step up to the plate and make a high quality open source Lisp IDE someday.
2017-09-10T06:13:14Z jmercouris: stylewarning: is that not emacs?
2017-09-10T06:13:25Z jmercouris: what is low quality about emacs?
2017-09-10T06:13:30Z Kovalski: It is sad. But if that's how it is, here I come emacs.
2017-09-10T06:13:44Z aeth: jmercouris: It's not a Common Lisp IDE in Common Lisp. It's in elisp and C.
2017-09-10T06:13:45Z stylewarning: Emacs is good but it's daunting and only suitable for those who have a lot of time to dedicate
2017-09-10T06:13:56Z Kovalski: stylewarning, exactly.
2017-09-10T06:14:01Z aeth: and, yeah, it has a multi-year learning curve
2017-09-10T06:14:12Z jmercouris: stylewarning: daunting? I don't think the curve is too high
2017-09-10T06:14:27Z stylewarning: No one knows how to copy paste in Emacs
2017-09-10T06:14:32Z jmercouris: if Kovalski, who claims to already know vim, just installs evil or some other compatibility layer, what more do they have to really learn? to setup an init file?
2017-09-10T06:15:02Z aeth: Well, yeah, that's one way to do it. Come from vim that has an even larger learning curve.
2017-09-10T06:15:09Z aeth: Fairly easy to switch there.
2017-09-10T06:15:12Z stylewarning: All the documentation he will read will assume usual Emacs bindings
2017-09-10T06:15:21Z aeth: It does make Emacs less approachable, though
2017-09-10T06:15:39Z JuanDaugherty: slime works with vim with evil?
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2017-09-10T06:16:00Z Kovalski: JuanDaugherty, with emacs with evil.
2017-09-10T06:16:06Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2017-09-10T06:17:05Z Kovalski: Thank you all. It's time to see what a buffer is.
2017-09-10T06:17:20Z stylewarning: A thing that contains text
2017-09-10T06:17:29Z JuanDaugherty: TeX is something that can make you feel better about emacs
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2017-09-10T06:17:49Z JuanDaugherty: as far as irksome envs go
2017-09-10T06:17:56Z Kovalski: stylewarning, so many buffers, so little time.
2017-09-10T06:18:13Z stylewarning: 3 buffer 5 me
2017-09-10T06:19:53Z Kovalski: jmercouris, you called Arch a disease, I wonder what you use?
2017-09-10T06:20:12Z jmercouris: Kovalski: doesn't matter
2017-09-10T06:20:29Z stylewarning: Off-topic anyway (:
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2017-09-10T06:20:38Z Kovalski: jmercouris, it could help me.
2017-09-10T06:21:08Z jmercouris: the only thing that might help you is /join #emacs, RET, ,faith RET
2017-09-10T06:21:43Z Kovalski: jmercouris, u stupid *in mexican accent*.
2017-09-10T06:23:25Z Kovalski: I'll go emacs myself, kovalski out.
2017-09-10T06:23:44Z godratio: Really just spend two hard days learning how to setup emacs the way you like it and than over a few weeks spend tweeking it a lil here and there i sugges you git yoru config file if you use multiple machines
2017-09-10T06:23:55Z godratio: version control it. so you can revert if you fuck something up
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2017-09-10T06:24:33Z godratio: other than that what more could you ask for emacs is a programmable text editor and if your learning lisp than for gods sake its damn great for learning lisp and having a programmable text editor at your finger tips
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2017-09-10T06:24:56Z Kovalski: godratio, copy that.
2017-09-10T06:24:58Z godratio: true ist start off a lil hard but give your self a few weeks to adjust after you set it up and boom your done and rest of your life is just like so easy
2017-09-10T06:25:40Z godratio: https://github.com/godratio/my_emacs_config
2017-09-10T06:26:25Z godratio: here is mine if you want to have an interseting starting place its a big one file mess cuz i just cobbled stuff together but have helm projectile and some good themes runs on my mac and windows machine at home and at work so should be good
2017-09-10T06:26:42Z godratio: keybindings are CTR-JKLI for movement
2017-09-10T06:27:19Z Kovalski: godratio, I'm going to use evil mode anyway. For the love of vim.
2017-09-10T06:27:29Z Kovalski: godratio, thanks.
2017-09-10T06:27:45Z godratio: for most modes anyways i need to setup org mode for that moviement style i like vim keys set up on the JKLI i just dont like modal style as always have Control key set up where CAPSLOCK is so no pinky issue
2017-09-10T06:27:58Z godratio: haha ok no prob
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2017-09-10T06:29:37Z Kovalski: godratio, how's your lisp newbie coat wearing?
2017-09-10T06:30:38Z godratio: fitting good one thing I have learned so far is that if your coming from C like langauges PROGN is your friend haha
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2017-09-10T06:31:14Z Kovalski: godratio, c is where I come from. What's PROGN?
2017-09-10T06:31:51Z godratio: yes me too i am c programmer too along with some c#
2017-09-10T06:32:04Z godratio: progn is where you can issues successsive forms to be evaluated
2017-09-10T06:32:09Z godratio: in a row
2017-09-10T06:32:12Z godratio: iimperatively
2017-09-10T06:32:24Z godratio: like in places that can only take one form
2017-09-10T06:32:51Z godratio: partiular after if which take only two forms the true and false case forms
2017-09-10T06:32:51Z Kovalski: I've no idea. What book are you using?
2017-09-10T06:33:12Z godratio: than you can use progn as one form that will evaluse multple ones in succession.
2017-09-10T06:33:44Z beach: PROGN is similar to {} in C and other languages.
2017-09-10T06:34:16Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm#progn
2017-09-10T06:34:20Z godratio: I started with http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ this after a few chapters got dry and started just tyring things on my own and now reffering to this
2017-09-10T06:34:28Z godratio: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Front/Contents.htm
2017-09-10T06:34:36Z godratio: https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial.html#EvaluatingFunctions
2017-09-10T06:34:36Z jmercouris: beach: I would say progn is more similar to () in other languages because all the inner forms get eval'd and returned as "one value"
2017-09-10T06:34:41Z godratio: http://www.whoishostingthis.com/resources/common-lisp/
2017-09-10T06:34:50Z Kovalski: Thanks, beach.
2017-09-10T06:35:05Z godratio: and this is another good run down i like https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/common-lisp/
2017-09-10T06:36:43Z Kovalski: godratio, yeah  I'm reading that PCL book now.
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2017-09-10T06:44:00Z AxelAlex: Hey, does anyone have a suggestion for a good library or framework for writing web servers?
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2017-09-10T06:46:57Z jmercouris: Phoenix
2017-09-10T06:47:08Z jmercouris: Shinmera
2017-09-10T06:47:56Z jmercouris: sorry, I confused the name
2017-09-10T06:47:59Z jmercouris: AxelAlex: https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance
2017-09-10T06:50:00Z AxelAlex: Thanks, I'll take a look.
2017-09-10T06:50:26Z ralt: AlexAlex: hunchentoot, clack, weblocks, radiance... There's plenty of choices.
2017-09-10T06:50:50Z holycow: look at hh-web as well: https://github.com/hargettp/hh-web
2017-09-10T06:51:14Z godratio: hmm so how can you get the first char of a list as a sequence.  Concatenate take only sequences of characters
2017-09-10T06:51:41Z godratio: but when I do (first at) gives me the element
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2017-09-10T06:54:20Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Shirakumo is my group, but I effectively wrote it, so you weren't far off :)
2017-09-10T06:55:10Z godratio: ahh list function i think
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2017-09-10T07:58:38Z Filystyn: hello
2017-09-10T07:59:04Z Filystyn: i need some advice
2017-09-10T07:59:32Z loke: With what?
2017-09-10T07:59:35Z Filystyn: is it true you can wirte in LISP scripts for autocad?
2017-09-10T08:00:02Z loke: Filystyn: Autocad has a scripting language that has some similarities to Lisp, yes.
2017-09-10T08:00:16Z loke: It's called Autolisp, but it's different enought that you won't be able to get any help here.
2017-09-10T08:00:37Z Filystyn: ok
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2017-09-10T08:00:48Z Filystyn: could not find any useful info for the topic
2017-09-10T08:00:51Z Filystyn: thank you for help
2017-09-10T08:00:55Z Filystyn: this is what I wanted to know
2017-09-10T08:01:06Z loke: Filystyn: It's a proprietart system, so I don't there this is much.
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2017-09-10T08:01:23Z jackdaniel: Filystyn: see also http://www.mattkeeter.com/projects/ao/
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2017-09-10T08:01:30Z jackdaniel: and http://web.ist.utl.pt/antonio.menezes.leitao/Rosetta/tutorials/introduction.html
2017-09-10T08:01:33Z loke: Filystyn: But I'm sure there are user communities out there. It's just that I've never seen them (but then again, I haven't looked)
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2017-09-10T08:01:59Z jackdaniel: Filystyn: these are scheme-based languages, so you may find help on #scheme for some language-specific questions
2017-09-10T08:02:25Z Filystyn: thx guys. ;-)
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2017-09-10T08:05:20Z jackdaniel: Filystyn: for 3d modeling you may also see http://www.gendl.org/ which is written in Common Lisp
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2017-09-10T08:19:47Z Kovalski: I like emacs, you know.
2017-09-10T08:21:30Z Kovalski: So basically, my rants about emacs was just ignorance.
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2017-09-10T08:33:53Z edgar-rft: May this channel be filleth with ignorance.
2017-09-10T08:39:12Z Jonsky: inshallah!!
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2017-09-10T09:00:17Z godratio: better to be filled with ignorace then silence!!!!
2017-09-10T09:00:40Z Shinmera: I don't know about that.
2017-09-10T09:04:53Z lerax: I prefer silence.
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2017-09-10T09:08:52Z White_Flame: silence is productive
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2017-09-10T10:11:26Z flip214: at least for mimes
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2017-09-10T12:44:02Z godratio: haha funny
2017-09-10T12:45:10Z godratio: well im getting just good enough to be dangerous to myself and others …
2017-09-10T12:45:17Z godratio: https://github.com/godratio/lisptools/blob/master/test.lisp
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2017-09-10T12:46:23Z Xach: is that ported from something?
2017-09-10T12:46:28Z Bike: why do you not just do (defvar token_cfg_doubledash 'doubledash), etc.?
2017-09-10T12:46:32Z godratio: still not for sure how lisp llikes their enums but this code is not so lispy but its how a c person writs lisp but still works and getting the hang of it.
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2017-09-10T12:46:53Z godratio: yes its nto really ported but just how i parsed tokens in c before
2017-09-10T12:47:07Z Bike: there's a built in alphanumericp
2017-09-10T12:47:41Z Bike: uh, but probably the important thing is that reading a file in as a list is not good
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2017-09-10T12:48:12Z godratio: regarding the (defvar token_cfg_doubledash ‘doubledash) yeah i will chagne that first t
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2017-09-10T12:49:15Z godratio: is that a good way tho?  i mdan is like my enums but is there a better way more explicit way of doing that. from what i read this is good enough since lisp asigns uniqueid to every symbol
2017-09-10T12:49:56Z godratio: ohh built in alphanumeric cool
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2017-09-10T12:50:35Z Bike: well, use defparameter instead of defvar i guess. (defparameter foo bar) is just the same as (progn (defvar foo) (setf foo bar))
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2017-09-10T12:52:15Z godratio: ohh ok cool good to know I will do it that way instead and just namespace with naming conventions.
2017-09-10T12:52:33Z Bike: what does it have to do with namespaces?
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2017-09-10T12:53:10Z Bike: though speaking of names, you're not following the conventions. dynamic variables (like you declare with defvar/parameter) are named with *asterisks*. multi word identifiers are split up like-this, not LikeThis.
2017-09-10T12:53:12Z godratio: I was doing at-char for the loop variables but i thinkn for lisp programmers at-cons tehn in the inner loop at-string-cons made more descriptive sense
2017-09-10T12:54:18Z Bike: you don't need the progns in the cond
2017-09-10T12:54:25Z godratio: ok i see but the token_dash etc… are just being used as enums not global vars thats why i left out the asterix there.
2017-09-10T12:54:33Z godratio: those camel case ones i will change
2017-09-10T12:55:13Z Bike: well, usually you wouldn't even have "enums". you'd just put 'doubledash in the code. it's not like they're opaque numbers like you'd do in C.
2017-09-10T12:56:12Z godratio: you mean no need to defvars at all?  just slam in ‘doubledash wherever i do equality checks?
2017-09-10T12:56:50Z Bike: basically, yeah. or if you really want you could use defconstant.
2017-09-10T12:57:56Z godratio: no progn in the cond? gives me a compiler error i take it out.
2017-09-10T12:58:58Z Bike: You get an error when you have like (cond ((char= #- (first at-cons)) (push ...) (return at-cons)) ...)?
2017-09-10T12:59:01Z godratio: ohh ok i see cool i will use just the slam in method
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2017-09-10T13:01:15Z godratio: yeah i need the progn there or it gives me an error
2017-09-10T13:01:40Z godratio: the second condition for cond does not allow multiple forms it seems
2017-09-10T13:02:02Z _death: it does
2017-09-10T13:02:06Z Bike: It does.
2017-09-10T13:02:25Z Bike: What exactly does it look like after you revise it?
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2017-09-10T13:03:49Z godratio: ok one sec i see where your saying in the docs it says that it should be an implicit progn but still getting a compile error one sec
2017-09-10T13:05:53Z godratio: https://github.com/godratio/lisptools/blob/5b8b71e952c05e9c980a210167b5b34a8da8ad22/test.lisp#L93
2017-09-10T13:06:33Z Bike: why is it ((push ...) ...)?
2017-09-10T13:06:48Z Bike: I didn't write that extra parenthesis, did i?
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2017-09-10T13:11:06Z godratio: ahaa ok i see it implicit progn as the whole enclocing form i was confused hehe got it
2017-09-10T13:11:14Z godratio: Bike: Thanks
2017-09-10T13:11:46Z godratio: The whole form is a implicit prog not just the second parameter which is what my assumption was.
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2017-09-10T13:25:49Z godratio: https://github.com/godratio/lisptools/blob/master/test.lisp
2017-09-10T13:26:07Z godratio: ok so refactored giving your suggestions one thing i can say is after progn is removed
2017-09-10T13:26:25Z godratio: a bit less legible in the conditional cases i guess
2017-09-10T13:26:55Z godratio: funny we dont even need enums here
2017-09-10T13:27:53Z godratio: or define anything its a bit cray although if you mis typing something could produce a very transparent bug… but than agian even if you define those things doesnt save you
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2017-09-10T13:37:02Z beach: godratio: Why do you want char-count to be a special variable.  You are only using it in one place, so it could be a lexical variable.  In fact you don't need it at all. (dotimes i (file-length stream) ...)
2017-09-10T13:37:21Z beach: godratio: And why do you introduce a variable TestVar at all?
2017-09-10T13:37:32Z beach: (push (read-char stream) *char-list*)
2017-09-10T13:39:08Z beach: godratio: What is the purpose of (setf at (get-token at))?
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2017-09-10T13:41:26Z godratio: the file read in stuff was the first lisp code ever wrote in my life haha so thats why its all messed up i just fixed basd on you suggestions all very good points.
2017-09-10T13:41:29Z beach: Why is *current-string* a special variable?  It is used only in one function, so you can make it a lexical variable.
2017-09-10T13:42:03Z godratio: regarding (setf at (get-token at)) is to move the conscell forward to the point we advanced by get-token
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2017-09-10T13:42:19Z beach: But then you don't want to use it as a loop variable.
2017-09-10T13:43:00Z godratio: well i dont see why not since it seems to move it forward from there on the next iteration by that spiffy loop macro.
2017-09-10T13:43:47Z godratio: Yes current string iw as trying to use let and it was failing for some reason i had not quite got why i could not get lexical scoping to work the way i wanted will try again to properly understand it.
2017-09-10T13:44:17Z godratio: lexical scoping in lisp is the let construct correct?
2017-09-10T13:44:21Z beach: You can not be sure about the interaction with what LOOP does.
2017-09-10T13:44:26Z beach: Yes, LET.
2017-09-10T13:45:02Z godratio: ahh you mean loop may change on me between implementations?
2017-09-10T13:45:44Z beach: I am pretty sure it is not specified what happens if you assign to a loop variable in the body of the loop.
2017-09-10T13:46:23Z solyd: i'm having an issue with managing state / configuration in my lisp code. I've seen plenty of libraries that use global variables like ql:*local-project-directories* to do this but coming from Java/C++ background it strikes me as odd (wrong) to use global variables...
2017-09-10T13:46:31Z beach: I would try something like (loop for at = (get-token *char-list*) then (get-token at) collect at)
2017-09-10T13:47:07Z solyd: also, how would i define my functions? (defun send-x (x host port) ...) where host and port should be configured by the library user, should they not appear in the function declaration and just use *host* and *port* defined as globals?
2017-09-10T13:47:10Z godratio: ohhh yes there is a way to explicity set the iteration method :)
2017-09-10T13:47:18Z beach: solyd: The name is relative to the package anyway.
2017-09-10T13:47:24Z godratio: beach: thanks thats very helpuful to know
2017-09-10T13:48:52Z solyd: beach: yes, they are package-local but I'm worried about having the program state scattered across many global variables. I like everything to be contained nicely in meaningful objects...
2017-09-10T13:49:06Z solyd: So what, use a *program-state* var?
2017-09-10T13:49:16Z beach: solyd: You can get the best of both worlds with &optional as in (defun send-x (x &optional (host *host*) (port *port*)) ...)
2017-09-10T13:49:50Z beach: solyd: Sure you can bundle up all the state in a class instance.
2017-09-10T13:51:05Z solyd: mmmm... what about using partial functions? I can create another "layer" of functions that have most of the arguments values assigned to ease development and still have a layer that accepts all possibly required arguments to do the job
2017-09-10T13:51:15Z solyd: (defun send-x (x host port) ...)
2017-09-10T13:51:24Z solyd: (defun send-x-helper (x) ... )
2017-09-10T13:51:44Z beach: solyd: No need with the &optional  (send-x x) works.
2017-09-10T13:52:10Z solyd: right okay, i think i get the drift
2017-09-10T13:52:38Z solyd: do you have any recommendations on high quality, production, lisp code  to read so I can figure out the common best practices?
2017-09-10T13:52:55Z beach: solyd: The package can kind of play the role of a class instance when you are not expected to have multiple simultaneous instances.  So special variables are fine in that case.
2017-09-10T13:53:44Z solyd: good point, but what if I want several instances of the package?
2017-09-10T13:54:05Z beach: solyd: This one https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer is pretty recent so it follows my more recent ideas of good practice.
2017-09-10T13:54:45Z beach: solyd: You can't have several instances of one particular package.  A package is already an instance.  If you need to have multiple simultaneous instances, you would use classes instead.
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2017-09-10T15:10:28Z Jonsky: Is there a way to "continue" in the (loop ...) like in other languages?
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2017-09-10T15:12:19Z Bike: no, you usually just use a conditional
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2017-09-10T15:15:35Z Jonsky: not even a goto to imitate that?
2017-09-10T15:17:13Z Bike: there is a goto, but the loop macro only establishes one for the analogy to "break".
2017-09-10T15:17:56Z Shinmera: Jonsky: what would your code look like if you had a continue
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2017-09-10T15:20:23Z Jonsky: Something like (loop ... if (good? mood) (continue) else do (eat-a-cat))
2017-09-10T15:20:50Z Shinmera: Then just (loop .. unless (good? mood) do (eat-a-cat))
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2017-09-10T15:21:35Z Jonsky: ah ha...that's why I don't need continue...
2017-09-10T15:21:41Z Jonsky: thanks
2017-09-10T15:22:21Z Shinmera: Also note that predicates typically and in p or -p, rather than ?.
2017-09-10T15:22:24Z Shinmera: *end
2017-09-10T15:24:13Z Jonsky: yes, the common lispy way. (but ? stands out more..)
2017-09-10T15:24:32Z Shinmera: Does it need to stand out?
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2017-09-10T15:27:45Z Jonsky: you're right. unnecessary emphasis on a predicate mislead the (human) reader.
2017-09-10T15:28:27Z Shinmera: Well I wouldn't go that far. I just don't think it's worth breaking conventions.
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2017-09-10T20:10:33Z jasom: Anybody know the most recent version of ASDF for which the package ASDF/PACKAGE exists as a nickname for UIOP/PACKAGE?
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2017-09-10T20:14:22Z jasom: It's hard to search for since asdf/package-inferred-system still exists
2017-09-10T20:18:02Z rpg_: You mean regexp matching is hard?
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2017-09-10T20:21:53Z shrdlu68: Got some time to work on cl-tls. I edited a version of dexador to test with, and ran into an issue where some servers are sending records that are bigger in length than the spec allows for. Very weird.
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2017-09-10T20:40:57Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: have you tried extracting the conformance test suites from other ssl libraries and running them against cl-tls ?
2017-09-10T20:43:25Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: Nope, apart from the openssl and gnutls command-line tools. Might you know of any?
2017-09-10T20:48:33Z shrdlu68: If I comment out the code that checks that the fragment length does not exceed the maximum fragment length it all works fine. I can see in wireshark that the records are indeed past the allowed size limit (2^14).
2017-09-10T20:50:07Z fe[nl]ix: I vaguely remember reading about ssl test suites
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2017-09-10T20:50:50Z fe[nl]ix: I would ask on reddit and/or hackernews
2017-09-10T20:51:57Z fe[nl]ix: there are two types of test suites: the ones that send ostensibly correct packetes and check the server configuration for features that are vulnerable to attacks
2017-09-10T20:52:35Z fe[nl]ix: and the ones that send incorrect packets and try to detect bugs in the protocol state machine
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2017-09-10T20:52:55Z shrdlu68: You mean fuzzers with the latter.
2017-09-10T20:53:27Z fe[nl]ix: not necessarily, fuzzers are automated random tools
2017-09-10T20:53:45Z fe[nl]ix: the best of the first type is https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html
2017-09-10T20:54:05Z fe[nl]ix: you need to expose a server directly in the internet :)
2017-09-10T20:55:35Z shrdlu68: I'm aware of ssllabs, I think it tests for poor configuration rather than implementation bugs.
2017-09-10T20:56:21Z shrdlu68: It reports things like weak cipher suites, weak public keys, etc.
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2017-09-10T20:57:28Z shrdlu68: There are hardly more sophisticated tls test suits than fuzzers, which are, in my experience, not very effective in the case of tls/ssl.
2017-09-10T20:58:58Z fe[nl]ix: I would still ask
2017-09-10T21:00:11Z shrdlu68: I actually started writing cl-tls to be one such tool.
2017-09-10T21:00:28Z fe[nl]ix: I know there are proprietary suites that were built by going through the standard and implementing a contrary test every time there's a MUST or a SHOULD
2017-09-10T21:00:37Z fe[nl]ix: but I image those are very expensive
2017-09-10T21:01:11Z shrdlu68: I could easily turn cl-tls into one such tool and earn some money then $-)
2017-09-10T21:02:09Z fe[nl]ix: you could
2017-09-10T21:02:23Z shrdlu68: For example, cl-tls reports that the certificate that signs microsoft.com's ocsp responses does not have the ocsp-sign bit set.
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2017-09-10T21:02:32Z fe[nl]ix: setting up a business and finding the first customers might not be easy, but doable
2017-09-10T21:04:12Z shrdlu68: Another example: A bunch of ocsp responders have much longer update intervals than I had initially set as the maximum in cl-tls, forcing me to lower the standards. The spec only says the interval should be "sufficiently recent". This gives people the freedom to set update intervals that I thought no sane person would set for an ocsp responder.
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2017-09-10T21:09:06Z shrdlu68: One concept I learned in writing cl-tls was "bug-compliance" and "bug-compatibility", from Peter Gutmann's blogs. When a major company misreads the specs and creates a buggy x509/tls implementation, everyone else is forced to introduce this bug as well in order to be bug-compatible with the big guys.
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2017-09-10T21:19:08Z Shinmera: That's how the web in general happened
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2017-09-10T21:55:20Z shrdlu68: How should write-byte and write-sequence behave when attempting to write to a closed stream?
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2017-09-10T21:57:32Z Shinmera: clhs 21.1.1.1.2
2017-09-10T21:57:32Z specbot: Open and Closed Streams: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/21_aaab.htm
2017-09-10T21:57:44Z Shinmera: "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined when a closed stream is used where a stream is called for.
2017-09-10T21:57:49Z Shinmera: "
2017-09-10T21:58:10Z Shinmera: But, of course, it is the nicest for the user if you signal en error.
2017-09-10T21:58:18Z Shinmera: *an
2017-09-10T21:59:58Z jasom: stream-error seems likely
2017-09-10T22:00:03Z jasom: clhs stream-error
2017-09-10T22:00:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_stm_er.htm
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2017-09-10T22:01:45Z shrdlu68: I'm trying to determine what's the correct way to handle such a situation in cl-tls. I'm currently raising an error but cl:stream-error might be a better idea.
2017-09-10T22:02:18Z Shinmera: well, it should be a subclass of stream-error, naturally.
2017-09-10T22:02:33Z Shinmera: or "sub-condition," if you will
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2017-09-10T22:31:15Z jasom: Shinmera: subtype is the correct term I think
2017-09-10T22:33:22Z jasom: whether or not define-condition introduces a new class appears to be unspecified
2017-09-10T22:33:31Z Shinmera: Indeed.
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2017-09-11T00:37:39Z ski: minion: chant
2017-09-11T00:37:40Z minion: MORE INFO
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2017-09-11T01:57:31Z emaczen: Can I force a garbage collect?
2017-09-11T02:02:29Z jasom: emaczen: #-sbcl(gc) #+sbcl(gc :full t)
2017-09-11T02:02:51Z jasom: clhs gc
2017-09-11T02:02:51Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for gc.
2017-09-11T02:03:10Z jasom: emaczen: oh, I guess it's not part of the spec, see trivial-garbage for a portable library
2017-09-11T02:05:13Z emaczen: jasom: What does :full do?
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2017-09-11T02:08:35Z Bike: GC's all the generations instead of well okay.
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2017-09-11T02:21:37Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/ql2nix/tree/overlay <-- an overlay that contains ~75% of the systems in quiciklisp for nix; you should be able to use it to make working dev environments for projects on nix
2017-09-11T02:30:29Z jasom: the naming-scheme is lisp_system-name-with-all-non-alphanumerics-repaced-with-hyphens
2017-09-11T02:31:42Z jasom: it's not well tested (if the system loads with no errors, it gets included), *but* all foreign libraries that are loaded with the system should be correctly included
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2017-09-11T03:02:39Z jasom: and now there's even a readme
2017-09-11T03:04:05Z loke: Good morning Lisp
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2017-09-11T03:22:15Z lexicall: Hi, I'm on OSX using sbcl 1.3.21 with slime 2.14 and I caught "Error while compiling ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.14/contrib/swank-sbcl-exts.lisp"
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2017-09-11T03:22:34Z lexicall: and thus slime won't start. any ideas?
2017-09-11T03:23:16Z lexicall: I tried to upgrade to slime 2.20 but quicklisp always installs slime 2.14
2017-09-11T03:23:42Z happy_gnu[m]: lexicall: Use GNU/Linux :)
2017-09-11T03:24:21Z lexicall: Ohh too bad I'm on Mac X(
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2017-09-11T03:28:23Z happy_gnu[m]: You can use GNU/Linux from Mac no need  to even erase OSx
2017-09-11T03:29:31Z happy_gnu[m]: Look I have no idea because I am a begginer at programming, but usually GNU/Linux bistros come with everything packaged in a simpler way
2017-09-11T03:29:47Z happy_gnu[m]: You can expend a few hours trying to understand what's wrong
2017-09-11T03:30:13Z happy_gnu[m]: Or maybe do a Live USB of Ubuntu and try your code from there
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2017-09-11T03:30:22Z happy_gnu[m]: It might be faster
2017-09-11T03:31:49Z slyrus: lexicall: update your quicklisp dist
2017-09-11T03:32:31Z pjb: it's not related to the OS.
2017-09-11T03:32:35Z pjb: (most lisp problems are not).
2017-09-11T03:32:53Z pjb: Don't forget that MacOSX is a UNIX system!  It works!
2017-09-11T03:32:59Z happy_gnu[m]: He talked about a version of an emacs package
2017-09-11T03:33:02Z lexicall: slyrus: ok I'm on it. thanks
2017-09-11T03:33:16Z pjb: (ok, it's a commercial unix system so it has a lot of problems (uncorrected bugs) like all commercial software, but still…
2017-09-11T03:33:22Z happy_gnu[m]: Maybe something up to date like Manjaro has a newer version
2017-09-11T03:34:03Z happy_gnu[m]: I didn't say it won't work on Mac I just said usually is easier to install things from GNu/Linux than mac
2017-09-11T03:34:10Z pjb: 1- check your rc files.  Don't load any thing provided by the packaging system if you used one to install sbcl!
2017-09-11T03:34:27Z pjb: (this is why using ccl is nice: no packaging system provides ccl! You have to install it yourself :-))
2017-09-11T03:34:28Z lexicall: happy_gnu[m]: sure you're right, things' always easier to install on a Linux.
2017-09-11T03:34:45Z pjb: 2- check for multiple installations of slime, notably with emacs elpa!
2017-09-11T03:35:07Z pjb: Use eg: find / -name slime.el -print  and kill any non quicklis-provided slime/swank!
2017-09-11T03:35:16Z happy_gnu[m]: Anyway I was just trying to help :)
2017-09-11T03:35:35Z pjb: If you use MacPort, things are as easy to install on Mac than on Linux.
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2017-09-11T03:36:17Z lexicall: I'm using homebrew, which installed slime 2.20 but I don't know exactly how to link that one with quicklisp or emacs.
2017-09-11T03:36:32Z takitus: It's silly to talk about how easy is to install things on 'Linux'. It depends entirely on which distro.
2017-09-11T03:36:37Z takitus: *it is
2017-09-11T03:37:02Z pjb: lexicall: remove the one installed by homebrew! Only use the one installed by quicklisp!
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2017-09-11T03:37:17Z happy_gnu[m]: takitus: that's why I said Ubuntu and not gentoo
2017-09-11T03:37:32Z lexicall: pjb: ok, removed that. I'm upgrading quicklisp now.
2017-09-11T03:37:35Z pjb: Notice I said MacPort, not homebrew. I didn't have had the same success with homebrew, to say the least.
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2017-09-11T03:37:45Z lexicall: sure :)
2017-09-11T03:37:51Z pjb: and check your rc files: ~/.sbclrc ~/.emacs etc.
2017-09-11T03:40:40Z lexicall: pjb: noting related to slime appears in my .sbclrc and LOAD-PATH was set to directory of slime 2.20 in .emacs.d/init.el. but emacs is  still loading slime 2.14
2017-09-11T03:41:10Z pjb: Yes, because it's slime that tells the implementation what swank to load.
2017-09-11T03:41:43Z lexicall: so I must upgrade quicklisp first.
2017-09-11T03:41:44Z pjb: In emacs, it's load-path not LOAD-PATH (emacs symbols are case sensitive and the reader doesn't change the case).
2017-09-11T03:42:16Z lexicall: pjb: I know that :)
2017-09-11T03:44:13Z lexicall: Alright, upgraded to 2.20 and sbcl works just fine :) thanks everybody!
2017-09-11T03:47:07Z jasom: pjb lexicall +1 on macports over homebrew for that
2017-09-11T03:48:14Z lexicall: jasom: any reasons for that? I always find homebrew easier to use though.
2017-09-11T03:49:08Z jasom: lexicall: macports has always been better for the softwae I use; I agree it's harder to use, but when the command completes successfully I find I'm much more likely to have something that works
2017-09-11T03:49:50Z pjb: Of course, there's a degree of personal task and experience in it.  For example, I dislike that homebrew installs in /usr/local (this is MY administrative domain!), while I like that MacPort installs in /opt/local/.
2017-09-11T03:50:18Z pjb: There are also the packages and their versions. You may find what you want in one or the other, but there are differences.
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2017-09-11T03:53:20Z lexicall: ok, I'm preserving both :)
2017-09-11T03:53:52Z pjb: and my personal favorite: MacPort works on PPC MacBooks :-)
2017-09-11T03:54:10Z pjb: (but it has been now several years sine I've booted it).
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2017-09-11T03:59:29Z lexicall: i think MacPorts always trying to download source codes and compile them natively, which wastes too much time.
2017-09-11T04:00:12Z lexicall: while homebrew always downloads binary if available.
2017-09-11T04:00:47Z pjb: Yes, it's also an important and good feature to have the source and to compile it too.
2017-09-11T04:00:57Z pjb: I've been a gentoo user for a long time…
2017-09-11T04:01:02Z pjb: And quicklisp does the same!
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2017-09-11T04:14:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-11T04:15:47Z caffe: good morning, beach
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2017-09-11T04:54:12Z Kovalski: Good morning!
2017-09-11T04:54:21Z beach: Hello Kovalski.
2017-09-11T04:54:51Z Kovalski: Hello, beach.
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2017-09-11T07:55:51Z hajovonta: good morning
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2017-09-11T07:57:55Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2017-09-11T08:28:43Z loke: Is there anything interesting going on?
2017-09-11T08:28:56Z Shinmera: Define interesting
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2017-09-11T08:30:25Z phoe_: loke: so many interesting biochemical processes going on in your body at the moment, have you ever wondered or pondered about how your hairs grow?
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2017-09-11T08:33:51Z Shinmera: I'm thinking some more about the planned rewrite of my CI system, but I don't consider that "very interesting". It is definitely something going on though.
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2017-09-11T08:40:42Z loke: phoe_: not really, no.
2017-09-11T08:40:53Z loke: phoe_: now I do, though... It hurts.
2017-09-11T08:40:56Z loke: Thanks.
2017-09-11T08:41:20Z phoe_: loke: good, good, let the interest flow through you
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2017-09-11T08:44:07Z beach: So I have this "intelligent macroexpand" feature in Cleavir.  It takes the underlying Common Lisp expression of a concrete syntax tree (CST), calls the normal macroexpand function, and then tries to build a CST from the result and the original CST, in order to preserve, as much as possible, information about source location, present in the original CST.
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2017-09-11T08:44:35Z beach: Now, I have pretty much decided that I want to compile LET by transforming the expression into a lambda form.
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2017-09-11T08:45:14Z beach: I could do that by defining LET as a macro, counting on the intelligent macro expand function to preserve the source location as much as possible.
2017-09-11T08:45:47Z beach: Alternatively, I could transform the CST corresponding to the LET expression "manually" and then call the compiler on the transformed CST.
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2017-09-11T08:46:20Z beach: In the second case, I am sure that I will get the source location right, but in the first case, maybe not.
2017-09-11T08:46:44Z pjb: I feel it would be a good opportunity to write a conforming metacircular LET macro…
2017-09-11T08:46:59Z beach: A third option would be to write a version of the PARSE-MACRO function that works on CSTs rather than on Common Lisp expressions.
2017-09-11T08:47:51Z beach: With this third option, I can write code as if I am writing a macro, but the resulting "macro function" would work on CSTs instead.
2017-09-11T08:48:35Z beach: pjb: Of what would the metacircularity consist?
2017-09-11T08:48:53Z pjb: It was just a reference to Henry Baker's paper ;-)
2017-09-11T08:49:09Z beach completely missed it.
2017-09-11T08:49:14Z pjb: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2017-09-11T08:49:42Z beach: I don't think I have read that one.  Thanks!
2017-09-11T08:50:21Z pjb: He writes: (defmacro let (vs &body forms) `(funcall #'(lambda ,(mapcar #'car vs) ,@forms) ,@(mapcar #'cadr vs))) ; but it's known to be overly simple.  For example, you want to deal with declarations.
2017-09-11T08:50:55Z beach: Sure, but for LET, that is pretty simple.  For LET* it's a bit more involved.
2017-09-11T08:51:02Z pjb: There may also be some other problems with the variables (eg. (let ((a 1) (a 2)) …) would expand to something that's is accepted, while this let form is bad.
2017-09-11T08:51:28Z pjb: There's also that call-arguments-limit doesn't apply to the number of bindings in a LET…
2017-09-11T08:51:49Z beach: True.  That has to be given some thought.
2017-09-11T08:51:59Z pjb: Hence, the opportunity to do it right once for all :-)
2017-09-11T08:52:19Z beach: I definitely see what you mean.
2017-09-11T08:56:38Z beach: Thanks for the link, by the way.  I will definitely read the article with great interest.
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2017-09-11T09:02:45Z beach: It would truly cut down on maintenance if I could find general technique in HIR to produce efficient code, even when these special operators are defined as in that article.
2017-09-11T09:03:40Z pjb: You'd need a SSC with a little more AI… :-)
2017-09-11T09:04:32Z beach: The question is how much of that is needed and how hard it would be to write.
2017-09-11T09:04:38Z pjb: With some luck (ie. control flow and data flow analysis), you could perhaps recover efficiency in some cases; but I would guess that in general you would need to recover the meaning of the construct to compile them efficiently.
2017-09-11T09:05:01Z beach: Could be.  That's worth contemplating, though.
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2017-09-11T09:06:49Z pjb: But if your optimizer is able to simplify and optimize eg. the condition handling thru multiple frames (including across multiple functions), I would say it would probably be powerful enough to do that.
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2017-09-11T09:09:54Z beach: Yeah, that sounds hard.
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2017-09-11T12:27:58Z mrSpec: Hi guys! I've got a question related to SLIME. When I go to method definition using M-. it opens *slime-xref* new buffer (fine!), when I select definition, slime points me the method, but instead of showing it in the buffer I came from, it uses the oldest buffer (so this is always not the one where I pressed M-. but the one where I'm looking at another file)
2017-09-11T12:28:31Z mrSpec: Does anyone has solution for this?
2017-09-11T12:28:57Z mrSpec: I'm sure I'm not the only one who uses more than 2 buffers at once ;)
2017-09-11T12:30:02Z Shinmera: I'd like to know too because it annoys me to fresh hell
2017-09-11T12:31:07Z antoszka: Same here, neverending emacs buffer mess.
2017-09-11T12:31:16Z mrSpec: I was ignoring that for months (years in fact!) but it is high time to fix it.
2017-09-11T12:31:45Z Shinmera: I think slime just uses emacs' buffer selection stuff.
2017-09-11T12:32:36Z Shinmera: I remember looking around for solutions but not finding anything much.
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2017-09-11T12:33:46Z mrSpec: It seems like using previous buffer would solve the issue
2017-09-11T12:34:09Z jackdaniel: lubię placki
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2017-09-11T12:34:30Z mrSpec: jackdaniel: FYI this is english speaking channel.
2017-09-11T12:34:33Z jackdaniel: ↑ was an inside joke aimed at mrSpec
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2017-09-11T12:37:33Z edgar-rft: There's e.g. Elisp (buffer-menu) for managing buffers like dired does for files, and I'm sure there are other built-in things...
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2017-09-11T12:39:27Z Shinmera: edgar-rft: I don't want to have to do anything at all. It should just use a sensible buffer to display the result in instead of splitting things to hell.
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2017-09-11T12:43:58Z edgar-rft: Shinmera: and I want a pony. Example: Using the same *buffer* means Emacs would have to delete the old contents of the buffer first and you would need to undo the deletion afterwards, is that what you want?
2017-09-11T12:44:45Z Shinmera: edgar-rft: This is software, I can just say what I want and it should be possible.
2017-09-11T12:44:53Z Shinmera: Anyway, replacing buffer contents is obviously insane.
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2017-09-11T12:45:22Z edgar-rft: but that's what mrSpec suggested
2017-09-11T12:45:46Z Shinmera: It's not what he meant because emacs terminology is confusing. He meant to reuse the same window.
2017-09-11T12:46:16Z Shinmera: As in, the M-. result happens in the same window as where you pressed M-.
2017-09-11T12:46:34Z Shinmera: Rather than the current behaviour, where it often will split the windows again or place the result buffer in some other random window.
2017-09-11T12:48:17Z Xach wonders what to do about macroexpand-dammit, a project that never had an .asd file and whose site has stopped working
2017-09-11T12:49:14Z edgar-rft: Shinmera: You can configure Emacs to never split windows, or only split windows in any situation you like, or a bazillion other possibilities. That's what Emacs is famous for.
2017-09-11T12:49:14Z mrSpec: Shinmera: exactly, thanks for clarification what I meant!
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2017-09-11T12:49:30Z Shinmera: edgar-rft: Exactly. We're asking how to do it.
2017-09-11T12:49:41Z mrSpec: edgar-rft: please, tell me how!
2017-09-11T12:49:45Z mrSpec: you'll save us.
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2017-09-11T12:51:11Z edgar-rft: the general stuff is here: <https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Windows.html#Windows>
2017-09-11T12:51:42Z edgar-rft: gimme some minutes, I first need to read my config files
2017-09-11T12:53:25Z edgar-rft: ...and here are the window-splittig options:<https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Choosing-Window-Options.html#Choosing-Window-Options>
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2017-09-11T12:57:07Z edgar-rft: Example for a list of Emacs buffer names that shall not pop-up: (setq same-window-buffer-names '("*inferior-lisp*"))
2017-09-11T12:58:51Z edgar-rft: Change number of buffers displayed in the toolbar's buffers list from 10 to 16: (setq buffers-menu-max-size 16)
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2017-09-11T13:01:34Z edgar-rft: I have some function slike "switch to last visited Elisp buffer" and ".. CL buffer" if anyone is interested, but that is far more than oly one line.
2017-09-11T13:02:01Z mrSpec: edgar-rft: I think this is what is needed for M-.
2017-09-11T13:02:40Z mrSpec: because making *slime-xref* not pop-up won't solve the issue, and would create a new one
2017-09-11T13:03:53Z edgar-rft: mrSpec: the switch-to-last-visited-blah stuff?
2017-09-11T13:04:16Z edgar-rft: I can setup a pastebin if you want
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2017-09-11T13:05:46Z mrSpec: edgar-rft: ah no sorry. I'm looking for opening file (with function definition) in last visited buffer, not switching to last visited buffer
2017-09-11T13:05:54Z mrSpec: won't help then.
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2017-09-11T13:12:09Z edgar-rft: mrSpec: an Emacs *buffer* is a piece of RAM holding the text, an Emacs *window* ist the graphic memory object displaying the text. Do you want to re-use the *buffer* (requires deleting the old text) or the *window* (does *not* require deletion of text in any buffer, only re-uses the GUI window for displaying a different buffer). In Emacs, this is an important difference.
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2017-09-11T13:17:30Z mrSpec: edgar-rft: oki, thanks. I'm really thinking about the window.
2017-09-11T13:18:26Z mrSpec: I thought that when I split window I still have 1 window, but 2 buffers. Now I see that when I split window, I have 2 windows.
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2017-09-11T13:18:49Z Shinmera: mrSpec: the "window" is called a frame in emacs parlance.
2017-09-11T13:19:06Z Shinmera: as in, you have frames which contain one or more windows, each of which displays a buffer.
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2017-09-11T13:25:07Z edgar-rft: mrSpec: the Emacs terminology comes from the time when people still worked with text terminals. When GUIs became popular, Emacs already had occupied the term "window" for it's own meaning. That's why Emacs calls GUI desktop windows "frames". Not very clever, but it saved them from re-writing all the internals. It's a well-known and endless source of confusion.
2017-09-11T13:25:49Z dlowe: if only they had access to a decent text editor that would do search-and-replace on a lot of files.
2017-09-11T13:26:39Z edgar-rft: I still would like to come up with a workable solution, but I need to know what the exact problem is.
2017-09-11T13:27:36Z dlowe: Xach: is it necessary to do anything?
2017-09-11T13:27:57Z Xach: dlowe: I don't like getting an alert every day about a failure to fetch an update for it.
2017-09-11T13:28:16Z Xach: dlowe: so that means moving to sharplispers (and adding a system, readme, etc) or just dropping it and breaking a couple projects.
2017-09-11T13:28:25Z Xach: or managing alerts differently
2017-09-11T13:28:27Z Xach: or or or
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2017-09-11T13:30:56Z dlowe: If I had a project that depended on something like that, I would just want to get a notification that it was no longer maintained, and that I should switch to something else before it gets dropped.
2017-09-11T13:31:27Z whoman: frames hold windows; it is logical
2017-09-11T13:32:51Z whoman: ain't not no one not isn't be framing them frames with windows, but with frames
2017-09-11T13:33:27Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: what repo are you referring to ?
2017-09-11T13:33:41Z White_Flame: they don't think it be like it is but it do
2017-09-11T13:33:55Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: macroexpand-dammit is (was) a single file on john.freml.in
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2017-09-11T13:57:15Z Xach: hmm, i wonder if macroexpand-dammit even works these days.
2017-09-11T13:57:25Z Xach: "lightly tested on sbcl 1.0.29"
2017-09-11T13:57:59Z phoe_: Xach: is it sbcl-only?
2017-09-11T13:58:16Z Xach: phoe_: no, sbcl, ccl, lispworks, and allegro too
2017-09-11T13:58:36Z phoe_: hm. sounds like it might be worth to try and revive it.
2017-09-11T13:58:38Z phoe_: but who?
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2017-09-11T14:00:09Z Xach: baggers and madnificent have projects (fn and sexml) that depend on it
2017-09-11T14:00:27Z phoe_: wait a second, do you have a system in Quicklisp that is not ASDF-compatible?
2017-09-11T14:00:51Z Xach: phoe_: no. but it is a system where the .asd file is auto-generated for packaging purposes.
2017-09-11T14:01:15Z phoe_ scratches his head
2017-09-11T14:01:18Z phoe_: 'tis weird
2017-09-11T14:01:30Z phoe_: if it's working, then, maybe it could use a refactor
2017-09-11T14:01:52Z phoe_: which would require these two gentlemen to test their projects with the refactored version, once it's done.
2017-09-11T14:02:16Z phoe_: in any other case, they'll nonetheless need to react to you killing that project from Quicklisp, so you can poke them either way
2017-09-11T14:02:21Z shrdlu68 or ladies?
2017-09-11T14:02:36Z phoe_: ...correct, madnificent might be a lady.
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2017-09-11T14:02:42Z phoe_: Baggers, not so much.
2017-09-11T14:02:48Z shrdlu68: Hehe
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2017-09-11T14:04:45Z phoe_: Xach: so you can query them for asking what they would prefer to do in their code... and in madnificent's case, also for their gender.
2017-09-11T14:04:52Z phoe_: since it seems to be of uttermost importance now.
2017-09-11T14:05:20Z Bike: macroexpand dammit has a bunch of sbcl specific stuff, including an sb-int
2017-09-11T14:05:36Z Bike: (though one that i think is still in place)
2017-09-11T14:05:44Z Xach: I don't have contact info for either :(
2017-09-11T14:06:11Z dlowe: baggers is on irc frequently
2017-09-11T14:06:23Z dlowe: use a bot memo?
2017-09-11T14:06:47Z phoe_: Xach: d'oh
2017-09-11T14:06:49Z phoe_: of course you do
2017-09-11T14:07:05Z phoe_: look in the .asd files of their systems, dammit
2017-09-11T14:07:28Z phoe_: it's you who enforces author information for every single project you accept into Quicklisp
2017-09-11T14:07:37Z phoe_: ...and Baggers is around pretty often on #lispgames
2017-09-11T14:08:03Z Xach: so much work for such an old, abandoned thing :~~(
2017-09-11T14:08:52Z phoe_: Xach: it's Common Lisp
2017-09-11T14:09:09Z phoe_: things become abandoned after roughly 5 to 7 years from what I noticed
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2017-09-11T14:10:25Z Xach: good call on the system files. they both had contact info.
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2017-09-11T14:18:32Z ralt: madnificent is not a lady
2017-09-11T14:18:51Z ralt: or a lady with a beard https://github.com/madnificent/
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2017-09-11T14:25:11Z phoe_: Xach: ha!
2017-09-11T14:25:19Z phoe_: go thank yourself for enforcing this. <3
2017-09-11T14:25:52Z Xach: it also really helps that i have ed wired up so i can use (ed (asdf:system-source-file "fn")) to pop to it in emacs
2017-09-11T14:26:00Z phoe_: hah
2017-09-11T14:26:03Z phoe_: good one
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2017-09-11T14:31:46Z phoe_: I plan on submitting CL-LZMA into Quicklisp one day, but I need to compile foreign libraries for a variety of systems.
2017-09-11T14:32:07Z phoe_: I actually wonder, is a library for 32-bit OS X *really* required nowadays?
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2017-09-11T14:32:31Z phoe_: 32-bit Linux happens, so does 32-bit Windows, but OS X?
2017-09-11T14:34:42Z JuanDaugherty: it was never clear to me
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2017-09-11T14:35:10Z JuanDaugherty: i think they did same as everybody else pretty much, just being a closed platform ... .
2017-09-11T14:35:25Z Shinmera: phoe_: there are no 32 bit OS X machines being sold.
2017-09-11T14:35:28Z JuanDaugherty: but I don't do that much dev on mac
2017-09-11T14:35:35Z Shinmera: haven't for quite some years either.
2017-09-11T14:35:53Z phoe_: Shinmera: good. And AFAIK even their 32-bit kernels are somehow able to use 64-bit programs and libs.
2017-09-11T14:35:56Z JuanDaugherty: i think they probably still have 32 bit compatibility
2017-09-11T14:36:03Z phoe_: JuanDaugherty: correct.
2017-09-11T14:36:05Z JuanDaugherty: again like everybody else
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2017-09-11T14:36:34Z Shinmera: What apple doesn't have is backwards compatibility. Apparently the next OS X version breaks things from 10.11/10.12 again.
2017-09-11T14:37:44Z JuanDaugherty: physical 32 bit intel desktops haven't been sold in a long time
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2017-09-11T14:38:15Z JuanDaugherty: i installed ubuntu 17 64 bit on a '05 celeron d emachine a few months ago
2017-09-11T14:38:34Z JuanDaugherty: then it got fried by a power surge about 3 weeks ago
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2017-09-11T14:47:52Z shrdlu68: JuanDaugherty: How does that happen? No fuses and circuit breakers?
2017-09-11T14:48:26Z JuanDaugherty: well it was a bouncing grid failure
2017-09-11T14:48:51Z JuanDaugherty: after 2 or 3 blips it went out for hours
2017-09-11T14:49:10Z JuanDaugherty: the blips killed the power supply pretty sure
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2017-09-11T14:49:40Z JuanDaugherty: it was a 12 yo machine so I didn bother further with it and moved its function onto this machine
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2017-09-11T14:50:17Z JuanDaugherty: was just using as a LAN router, it was in continuous service all or most of that time though
2017-09-11T14:50:42Z JuanDaugherty: if it had been on the UPS, as all the local machines are now, it would still be in service
2017-09-11T14:51:46Z JuanDaugherty: i think it was the cumulative effect of being exposed to such power events over the decade or so
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2017-09-11T14:53:07Z shrdlu68: I have a raspberry pi outside, without any covering, protected only from rain and direct sunlight, that acts as a wifi router. Has been running reliably for a year and a half.
2017-09-11T14:53:18Z JuanDaugherty: it had 32 bit linux most of that time but I looked up the processor model and it indicated it could run 64 which in fact it did
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2017-09-11T14:54:27Z JuanDaugherty: well you're in a dry area in Africa, no?
2017-09-11T14:54:55Z shrdlu68: Yep, not much humidity here most of the year.
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2017-09-11T17:14:15Z borodust: Xach: are there any plans (if that's even possible) to support conditional dependencies in asdf?
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2017-09-11T17:14:39Z Xach: borodust: I don't have plans for that on the quicklisp side. I don't know about the asdf side.
2017-09-11T17:14:49Z Xach: borodust: i understand the desire but don't see a clear way to a mechanism
2017-09-11T17:15:21Z borodust: Xach: i mean, asdf has those, i was wondering if quicklisp would support that feature
2017-09-11T17:15:43Z Xach: no.
2017-09-11T17:16:01Z borodust: i see
2017-09-11T17:16:03Z borodust: thanks anyway
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2017-09-11T17:19:23Z jasom: Is there a way to get a list of foreign libraries loaded with cffi?
2017-09-11T17:20:08Z borodust: jasom: yes, (cffi:list-foreign-libraries :loaded-only t)
2017-09-11T17:20:47Z jasom: borodust: thanks!
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2017-09-11T19:35:49Z Marcy: I can't get slime to load quicklisp automagically, the closest thing I could find to an answer was here: http://slime-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com/o9d9bm37/different-behavior-ccl-w-slime#post2 which seems to indicate that slime isn't loading my CLISP init file correctly, but further searching isn't turning up results for me.
2017-09-11T19:36:25Z Xach: Marcy: do you want quicklisp to load when you start clisp, or only when you start slime?
2017-09-11T19:37:31Z Marcy: It loads fine into CLISP, and slime has CLISP as my inferior-lisp-program. I'd like for it to load when I start slime.
2017-09-11T19:38:43Z Xach: Marcy: when you start clisp on the command line, it loads quicklisp automatically?
2017-09-11T19:38:57Z Marcy: Xach: Yes.
2017-09-11T19:39:31Z Xach: Marcy: but when you use M-x slime, and clisp starts, quicklisp is not loaded?
2017-09-11T19:39:40Z Marcy: Xach: Correct.
2017-09-11T19:39:47Z Xach: Marcy: how can you tell it's not loaded?
2017-09-11T19:41:04Z Marcy: Xach: (ql:quickload "vecto") returns "no package with name #1="QL"" error
2017-09-11T19:41:52Z Xach: Marcy: that's a pretty good sign. hmm!
2017-09-11T19:42:28Z Xach: Marcy: are you up for pasting some stuff? if so, what's in your clisp init file? and what's in your *inferior-lisp* buffer at the start? maybe there are some clues.
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2017-09-11T19:44:04Z osune: do you guys mind to keep it here so i can follow along ?
2017-09-11T19:44:56Z Marcy: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355605 buffer
2017-09-11T19:46:05Z Xach: As a meta comment, clisp is not good and I would recommend something else. But it is still an interesting puzzle.
2017-09-11T19:46:49Z osune is ready to take notes for a lisp adventure 
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2017-09-11T19:48:38Z Marcy: It's what Land of Lisp starts with, so it's what I picked up.
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2017-09-11T19:49:45Z Xach: Marcy: how is the clisp init file coming?
2017-09-11T19:49:54Z jasom: Marcy: check your .emacs that it's not passing "-norc" to clisp?
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2017-09-11T19:50:31Z Marcy: Xach: I'm new and on windows, and am having trouble finding it again. I knew where it was last night...
2017-09-11T19:52:10Z jasom: Marcy: if you just want to get up and running on emacs, and don't mind using sbcl, I've got a "just unzip it to run" packge of emacs/slime/quicklisp/sbcl here: https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate/releases/download/1.0/lispstick-sbcl-1.3.9-emacs-24.5.zip
2017-09-11T19:53:23Z Marcy: jasom: my .emacs file appears to be empty, with the exception of the ql loading code. And I don't have a specific attachment to CLISP other than, "it's what I started with"
2017-09-11T19:54:00Z jasom: Marcy: there should be somewhere that you set slime-lisp-implementations, right?
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2017-09-11T19:55:02Z Marcy: jasom: I set up my slime using QL through CLISP on the command line, so it's all magic to me.
2017-09-11T19:55:24Z jasom: Marcy: can you paste your .emacs?
2017-09-11T19:55:31Z osune: jasom: portacle is 1.0 too now
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2017-09-11T19:58:50Z Shinmera: https://portacle.github.io
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2017-09-11T19:59:58Z osune: only gripe is has not rgrep out of the box on windows
2017-09-11T20:00:35Z Marcy: jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355606 Looking at this closer, I'm not actually writing my .emacs file, because of reasons? But emacs is loading the same file when I load it across sessions.
2017-09-11T20:01:03Z Marcy: For the amount of time I spend on computers, I am terrible at them.
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2017-09-11T20:02:04Z jasom: Marcy: that's fine, I just wanted to check that nothing was passing options to clisp to tell it to *not* load your initialization file.  That's on the second line of the .emacs
2017-09-11T20:02:25Z jasom: Marcy: it was a quick thing to check, but doesn't appear to be causing the problem
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2017-09-11T20:09:20Z Marcy: Xach: https://pastebin.com/m0Jx9QAr here's my CLISP init file; why is it bad? Is there a place I can dig around to find out more about implementations?
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2017-09-11T20:11:05Z Xach: Marcy: clisp has some virtues but they are outweighed by its flaws. it is not very fast, it has some deviations from the spec, it is not released very often, it is unmaintained or lightly maintained, and it does not have many users to help other users.
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2017-09-11T20:12:05Z Xach: SBCL is popular and actively used and developed. CCL is pretty good, though development has slowed quite a bit. other implementations have their virtues and vices too.
2017-09-11T20:13:16Z osune: it seems the users settle for sbcl for general stuff and ECL for the embedded side (?)
2017-09-11T20:13:26Z Xach: for example, i don't use abcl, but it runs on the jvm, and if that was a constraint for me, i'm glad it is actively developed
2017-09-11T20:13:49Z Shinmera wonders how to divide CL implementations into the different vices of Pride, Envy, Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony, and Lust
2017-09-11T20:14:05Z Marcy: Mmk.
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2017-09-11T20:16:15Z Marcy: Haskell introduced me to the REPL, and I don't want to use anything without it, but oh gosh getting build environments working as a beginner in whatever language is rough.
2017-09-11T20:16:38Z Shinmera: Well, if you want to make an apple pie from scratch...
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2017-09-11T20:16:56Z Shinmera: You could also just use a packaged deal like Lispstick or Portacle, which has been shown to you.
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2017-09-11T20:17:21Z rpg: ABCL is handy if you want to script a Java program, but if you just want to run CL code, and want something free, you should probably use CCL or SBCL.
2017-09-11T20:17:30Z rpg: ABCL is quite a bit slower.
2017-09-11T20:17:31Z Xach: Everything new smacks you with all the weird stuff that longtime users just ignore/accept/take for granted.
2017-09-11T20:17:32Z osune: Or the dwarf fortress total noob package , which is also nice
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2017-09-11T20:19:15Z Marcy: Shinmera: I'll take a look at both of those, but neither showed up when I googled "learn lisp" :p Scala has a similar issue, except lisp has not blown up when I tried to do stuff in the preferred IDE. I couldn't get hello_world to work in Scala's IDE : /
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2017-09-11T20:19:40Z Shinmera: Well, portacle is relatively new. Started last year and finished last week.
2017-09-11T20:20:01Z Shinmera: And a lot of people still continue to put out tutorials that try to do things from scratch.
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2017-09-11T20:21:09Z osune: well apart from lispstick, which i didn't know about until now. there was no other option until last weak, to be fair ...
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2017-09-11T20:21:44Z Shinmera: there was lispbox, but it hasn't been maintained in forever and never quite run right on all systems either.
2017-09-11T20:21:48Z Shinmera: *ran
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2017-09-11T20:22:01Z osune: that's right forgot about it
2017-09-11T20:22:15Z Marcy: That's what I'm moving from
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2017-09-11T20:23:46Z osune: i like to think that it's part of the experience to battle with the new environment
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2017-09-11T20:24:42Z Marcy: while that's true, I think it should start after package management haha
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2017-09-11T20:24:57Z jasom: Speaking of niche uses of lisps not named sbcl or ccl, has anyone written a plugin for a non-lisp program using ECL?
2017-09-11T20:25:07Z Shinmera: I made Portacle in preparation for writing my book. The idea that people would have to go through an error-prone, long, and besides-the-point manual setup before they could get started lisping is absolutely disgusting to me.
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2017-09-11T20:26:00Z zetax: so I want lisp to PRINT \" as "
2017-09-11T20:26:03Z jasom: Shinmera: that's also why I created my tool for generating .zip files for windows and my script for configuring slime on linux
2017-09-11T20:26:18Z osune: Shinmera: may I ask you why u used a shell based build approach?
2017-09-11T20:26:25Z jasom: zetax: use princ?
2017-09-11T20:26:32Z jasom: clhs *print-escape*
2017-09-11T20:26:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_esc.htm
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2017-09-11T20:26:38Z Shinmera: osune: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6zhc2m/the_portacle_common_lisp_ide_10_released/dmvd619/
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2017-09-11T20:26:58Z dlowe: Shinmera: there was always the demo version of lispworks.  Though portacle is much better, so thanks.
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2017-09-11T20:27:14Z Shinmera: dlowe: Ah- forgot about that.
2017-09-11T20:27:20Z osune: Shinmera: should have checked my inbox thanks !
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2017-09-11T20:28:19Z osune: Shinmera: what can you do about native grep support in portacle ? asking for a friend ...
2017-09-11T20:28:22Z zetax: jasom: thansk
2017-09-11T20:28:31Z zetax: oh wow someone repackaged emacs again
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2017-09-11T20:28:53Z dlowe: it gets better every time
2017-09-11T20:28:56Z jasom: osune: I also used shell scripts for exactly the same reason for generating lispstick: https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate
2017-09-11T20:29:03Z Shinmera: osune: I can try to do one better. https://github.com/portacle/portacle/issues/49
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2017-09-11T20:29:26Z osune: Shinmera: love it
2017-09-11T20:30:15Z Shinmera: jasom: Oh, so you use Wine to build. Interesting. Did you encounter any issues with that?
2017-09-11T20:30:34Z jasom: Shinmera: none.
2017-09-11T20:30:45Z osune: jasom: yeah but see this days where people speak of dockers and flatpaks 'n fancy stuff , using plain shell seems exotic for modern standards
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2017-09-11T20:31:20Z jasom: If I need incremental builds and dependency management, I switch to redo, which is just a fancy interface for shell scripts
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2017-09-11T20:32:10Z Shinmera: osune: One of the requirements for Portacle was to avoid container technology, so that rules out Docker. I didn't know of flatpack at the time, but I doubt it would easily solve my issue, and would only handle Linux anyway.
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2017-09-11T20:32:43Z jasom: Shinmera: sbcl works as good, if not better, under wine as native windows, and the only other thing I was doing was scripting .msi files, which wine does fine as well
2017-09-11T20:33:10Z jasom: There are supposedly crazy corner-cases of .msi files that wine can't handle, but I've not run into them in my time using it
2017-09-11T20:33:18Z Shinmera: I see.
2017-09-11T20:33:28Z jasom: s/good/well
2017-09-11T20:33:51Z Shinmera: Currently portacle is already wired to MSYS2, so seeing if Wine would work as an alternative host would require a good bit of work.
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2017-09-11T20:34:28Z osune: Shinmera: thanks for the follow up .
2017-09-11T20:34:34Z Shinmera: osune: No problem
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2017-09-11T20:35:31Z jasom: Shinmera: mainly I don't have a windows machine everywhere I go, and wine is much faster than a VM
2017-09-11T20:36:02Z Shinmera: Yeah, I can see the benefits
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2017-09-11T20:37:45Z jasom: back when I was maintaining a native-windows application written in lisp, I used wine for building executable imags as well; so much nicer than .bat files, and I never had time to learn powershell
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2017-09-11T20:39:07Z Shinmera: portacle's commit history has some fun stuff about batch files
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2017-09-11T20:39:58Z Shinmera: https://github.com/portacle/portacle/commit/06e124851fb11efd0495b99bfeafb2bdce9a8fe8
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2017-09-11T20:41:35Z Shinmera: I initially used scripts to handle the wrapping of executables, but that turned out to be a mistake in the long run, especially on Windows. Hence the launcher application.
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2017-09-11T21:20:49Z JohnTalent: Any of you have any ideas on this? https://pastebin.com/SFH0Z8fv
2017-09-11T21:20:52Z JohnTalent: tia.
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2017-09-11T21:34:41Z edgar-rft: JohnTalent: the error seems to be that (SDL2-EXAMPLES:BASIC-TEST *POSIX-ARGV*) was called with one argument, but wants exactly zero arguments. Everything else must be looked-up in the definition of the SDL2-EXAMPLES:BASIC-TEST function.
2017-09-11T21:41:13Z ralt: how can I make a macro that will give me the proper docstring when using multiple args? e.g. with (defmacro foo (vars &body body)), I'd like "vars" to be decomposed into proper arguments in the docstring, such that I can do (foo (#| get proper docstring there |#
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2017-09-11T21:43:17Z ralt: duh, I'm stupid, sorry
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2017-09-11T22:35:24Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: As you can see I'm not calling it with any arguments?!
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2017-09-11T22:36:00Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: sorry it took so long, took a shower.
2017-09-11T22:38:19Z JohnTalent: It may be a bug in buildapp.
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2017-09-11T22:45:59Z edgar-rft: JohnTalent: you call it with the argument *POSIX-ARGV*, so even if *POSIX-ARGV* is NIL, it's a *one* argument, a symbol-name.
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2017-09-11T22:47:02Z edgar-rft: zero arguments would look like this:  (SDL2-EXAMPLES:BASIC-TEST)
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2017-09-11T22:53:31Z edgar-rft: Sorry, now I understand: in prerend.lisp you write (sdl2-examples:basic-test) and then buildapp turns it in dumper-2SKVI5f7.lisp into (sdl2-examples:basic-test *posix-argv*), then it looks like a bug in buildapp
2017-09-11T22:55:24Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: Ah okay. Off the top of the head, is the source available for buildapp?
2017-09-11T22:56:26Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: When you run hello-lines it gives you a REPL. I type (sdl2-examples:basic-test) and everything works without issues.
2017-09-11T22:58:26Z JohnTalent: perhaps it's looking for an eclosure to the series of lists I provided in preresnd.lisp but I'd rather look at the source.
2017-09-11T22:58:49Z JohnTalent: s/preresnd.lisp/prerend.lisp.
2017-09-11T22:59:01Z JohnTalent: sorry, enclosure.
2017-09-11T22:59:04Z edgar-rft: AFAIK the source is <https://github.com/xach/buildapp>, but I never used buildapp, so don't ask me too man details :-)
2017-09-11T22:59:19Z edgar-rft: *too many details
2017-09-11T22:59:20Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: okay. it's aprreciated.
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2017-09-11T23:00:27Z edgar-rft: I just see that Xach is online, but mabe away from keyboard right now...
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2017-09-11T23:01:50Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: okay. hey, what the normal way to debug in lisp?
2017-09-11T23:04:45Z edgar-rft: The normal way is not to create stand-alone executables, so you're outside the ANSI spec, everthing depends on the SBCL internals.
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2017-09-11T23:06:59Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: Okay so I"ll i'll put assert and debug prints in the source code.
2017-09-11T23:07:58Z edgar-rft: I usually start with dumb-simple things like (print "hello") lines and stuff like that
2017-09-11T23:10:07Z JohnTalent: that is what you do. okay.
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2017-09-11T23:12:40Z edgar-rft: but it would be interesting where the *POSIX-ARGV* argument (probably holding the command-line arguments) comes from
2017-09-11T23:16:16Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: it does feel like there is no default for some call or another.
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2017-09-11T23:21:36Z edgar-rft: To me it looks like buildapp tries to insert a handler for command-line arguments. Look at the (defun main (argv) ...) examples at <https://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/>
2017-09-11T23:22:15Z Xach: the command line is passed as a list to the entry function
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2017-09-11T23:27:29Z edgar-rft: does that mean it would be sufficient to replace (sdl2-examples:basic-test)
2017-09-11T23:27:29Z edgar-rft: with (lambda (argv) (declare (ignore argv)) (sdl2-examples:basic-test)) ?
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2017-09-11T23:32:52Z Xach: yes
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2017-09-11T23:39:07Z JohnTalent: https://pastebin.com/CEZPi1gi
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2017-09-11T23:40:01Z JohnTalent: There is no SDL window and exists out of REPL.
2017-09-11T23:40:15Z JohnTalent: or should I say no REPL.
2017-09-11T23:41:26Z JohnTalent: The created binary results in https://pastebin.com/bj32hYGr
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2017-09-11T23:41:54Z JohnTalent: (* I changed from basic-test to renderer-test *)
2017-09-11T23:44:20Z edgar-rft: JohnTalent: in a stand-alone executable it's up to *you* to start a REPL if you want one.
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2017-09-11T23:49:32Z JohnTalent: edgar-rft: okay. but buildapps creates a hello-lines which is a REPL binary.
2017-09-11T23:51:22Z whoman: would be nice to have sdl/window in the repl actual.
2017-09-11T23:52:15Z mfiano: If you are trying to dump an executable of a game/sdl render, a lot of groundwork has to be done
2017-09-11T23:52:27Z mfiano: typically we work with interactive environments and don't dump binaries
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2017-09-12T00:01:34Z JohnTalent: mfiano: Hm, then why have I created a hello-world binary in the past?
2017-09-12T00:02:53Z mfiano: At a bare minimum, you'll have to make the sdl thread main, and somehow control how assets are resolved, since they would otherwise refer to the host system's path locations without any work done.
2017-09-12T00:03:19Z mfiano: Otherwise the program will immediately exit, and refer to assets that don't exist
2017-09-12T00:03:57Z mfiano: Because a hello-world binary does not run in a separate thread nor require assets
2017-09-12T00:05:22Z JohnTalent: what assets does cl-sdl2 require besides tg, sdl-ffi etc. Are these the sort requirements you refer to?
2017-09-12T00:05:31Z emaczen: can I expect similar output from (room) on linux?
2017-09-12T00:06:39Z emaczen: between linux distributions machines etc?
2017-09-12T00:08:24Z Bike: what room shows you is defined by the implementation
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2017-09-12T00:15:35Z JohnTalent: mfiano: ^
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2017-09-12T00:34:09Z whoman: guys. i think i have a serious problem. i cant un-haskell myself while im trying to lisp. i dont know if its because i am old after hiatus, or if i should just persevere
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2017-09-12T00:38:06Z bugrum: whoman: don't go to haskell!
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2017-09-12T00:43:06Z whoman: i think lisp is a good and possibly eternal idea. it can be implemented from memory; haskell is a magic proprietary mystery. i depended on laziness a lot. i think i can learn more about lisp optimization and lean on sbcl/etc a bit more
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2017-09-12T00:54:52Z shrdlu68: whoman: Can't relate. I've been thinking of learning haskell for a while now, though.
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2017-09-12T01:00:48Z whoman: it has really affected and improvde my approach and internalizing of problems and concepts
2017-09-12T01:01:10Z whoman: also it taught me math =P
2017-09-12T01:03:54Z Bike: haskell isn't proprietary, is it? it has a standard and the main compiler is named after a school.
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2017-09-12T01:14:18Z whoman: Bike, yes, i mean as an idea. the lisp "idea" is much more compact. so if all the computers exploded, for eg.
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2017-09-12T01:16:15Z Bike: you think? i find haskell quite simple as well
2017-09-12T01:16:35Z Bike: HM is pretty easy as type inference goes, and other than that it's just lambda calculus with some more shit thrown in, same as lisp
2017-09-12T01:17:07Z whoman: if all source code disappeared, im imagining ghc one of the more difficult compilers for replacing from scratch
2017-09-12T01:17:13Z whoman: HM?
2017-09-12T01:17:27Z Bike: hindley-milner
2017-09-12T01:17:31Z whoman: ah, hmm. im also thinking about laziness and all the thesis papers
2017-09-12T01:17:42Z Bike: laziness is easy
2017-09-12T01:17:46Z whoman: extensions, optimizations..
2017-09-12T01:17:48Z Bike: it dates back to the 1930s
2017-09-12T01:18:18Z whoman: could haskell be as "small" as lisp ?
2017-09-12T01:18:40Z whoman: like a basic working implementation if we had to get back to punch cards for a week or two
2017-09-12T01:19:05Z Bike: you are in the channel for /common/ lisp, you know, which is kind of involved
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2017-09-12T01:19:52Z whoman: thats true..
2017-09-12T01:20:10Z whoman: yeah, ok =)
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2017-09-12T01:23:38Z edgar-rft is lazy by default, getting him to work is much more difficult
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2017-09-12T01:40:08Z aeth: imo, Common Lisp isn't involved to implement. It's involved to implement efficiently.
2017-09-12T01:43:13Z aeth: I think anyone here with enough time could write a near-complete implementation of Common Lisp that is 10x to 30x slower than SBCL.
2017-09-12T01:47:30Z pillton: Are the papers from ELS 2017 available yet?
2017-09-12T01:48:11Z pillton: Oh. They are in the proceedings PDF.
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2017-09-12T02:04:17Z drmeister: Should shared-initialize be being called on generic functions repeatedly when starting up?   I'm seeing that in Clasp - it is unexpected.
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2017-09-12T02:05:18Z drmeister: Hmm, shared-initialize is called when things are reinitialized.
2017-09-12T02:05:22Z loke: drmeister: When is it called?
2017-09-12T02:05:30Z loke: Isn't it called every time an instance is created?
2017-09-12T02:05:46Z loke: “The generic function shared-initialize is used to fill the slots of an instance using initargs and :initform forms. It is called when an instance is created, when an instance is re-initialized, when an instance is updated to conform to a redefined class, and when an instance is updated to conform to a different class”
2017-09-12T02:06:42Z drmeister: Well, I wrote an :after method on shared-initialize for generic functions.  I wanted it to initialize a slot based on the lambda-list of the generic function.
2017-09-12T02:06:55Z drmeister: I want it to do this once, the first time the generic function is created.
2017-09-12T02:06:59Z drmeister: Not over and over and over again.
2017-09-12T02:07:13Z drmeister: I believe it is being called every time a method is created.
2017-09-12T02:07:47Z loke: drmeister: what is it called by?
2017-09-12T02:07:53Z loke: Do you have a stack trace?
2017-09-12T02:09:01Z drmeister: That is troublesome to obtain - this is happening when Clasp is starting up.  Checking...
2017-09-12T02:10:33Z drmeister: I'm checking to see if I can break at that point.
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2017-09-12T02:23:02Z drmeister: It's called by reinitialize-instance - on second thought it's probably not a good way to initialize this slot.
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2017-09-12T02:23:23Z drmeister: I need to initialize a new slot for generic functions based on the number of required arguments it has.
2017-09-12T02:23:45Z drmeister: I want to initialize this slot just once, when the generic function is first created. Where would one do this?
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2017-09-12T02:32:48Z loke: drmeister: I'm more curious as to why reinitialize-instance is called when you add a new method?
2017-09-12T02:36:36Z drmeister: That must be an ECL thing - I am using ECL CLOS
2017-09-12T02:37:08Z drmeister: defmethod calls ensure-generic-function and so on to shared-initialize
2017-09-12T02:45:39Z loke: The defmethod macro itself calls ENSURE_GENERIC-FUNCTION... The defmethod macro expands into a call to INSTALL-METHOD with also calls ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
2017-09-12T02:45:42Z loke: So there are two calls?
2017-09-12T02:46:23Z loke: I'm looking at the ECL code, not Clasp.
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2017-09-12T02:58:16Z drmeister: There may be - I've got problems much later - when methods are being defined and wiping out the specializer-profile slot that I added.
2017-09-12T02:59:54Z drmeister: I can't seem to find the point where the lambda-list is defined and the generic-function is initialized for the first time.
2017-09-12T03:03:16Z loke: Isn't that in ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION? There is a cond clause for (not (fboundp name))
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2017-09-12T03:04:15Z drmeister: The lambda-list doesn't appear to be defined in some cases - although I may have done something wrong.
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2017-09-12T04:51:01Z JohnTalent: Bueller?... Bueller?... anyone?... Bueller?
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2017-09-12T05:00:10Z lexicall: hi, I wonder is there an elegant way to call a method of super class? In order to do that I have to use CHANGE-CLASS but I think it's quite ugly.
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2017-09-12T05:02:11Z loke: lexicall: (call-next-method)
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2017-09-12T05:03:22Z lexicall: thanks!
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2017-09-12T05:19:03Z jasom: did sbcl core images get a lot smaller recently?
2017-09-12T05:19:37Z jasom: I'm seeing 44MB uncompressed for a fairly simple image on x86_64, and I rememberd that number being higher...
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2017-09-12T05:36:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-12T05:36:46Z loke: Hello beach
2017-09-12T05:36:51Z loke time for lunch
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2017-09-12T05:42:46Z iqubic: I hate still being banned from #emacs
2017-09-12T05:43:04Z iqubic: It been a week and a half now.
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2017-09-12T05:51:00Z scottj: iqubic: fwiw when it happened I think they said a 24 hour cooling off period so maybe message the op that banned you.
2017-09-12T05:51:20Z iqubic: I don't remember who banned me.
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2017-09-12T05:54:19Z pillton: jasom: I don't think so. http://paste.lisp.org/display/355631
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2017-09-12T05:58:22Z pillton: Well I guess 6M.
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2017-09-12T06:12:44Z Shinmera: jasom: Stassats has been continuously working on reducing core sizes.
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2017-09-12T07:15:36Z hajovonta: hi everybody
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2017-09-12T07:59:30Z shka: hello
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2017-09-12T08:00:04Z beach: Hello shka.
2017-09-12T08:00:18Z shka: question regarding non standard generic function metaclass
2017-09-12T08:01:26Z beach: Yes?
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2017-09-12T08:02:32Z shka: will performance be hurt under sbcl even if i won't use non-standard dispatch?
2017-09-12T08:03:08Z beach: I don't think so.
2017-09-12T08:03:39Z shka: hm
2017-09-12T08:03:49Z shka: well, i guess we should check
2017-09-12T08:04:09Z beach: What does your non-standard generic function class look like?
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2017-09-12T08:05:05Z shka: like here
2017-09-12T08:05:10Z shka: ah, my
2017-09-12T08:05:52Z shka: beach: no members, no specializing CL GFs
2017-09-12T08:06:06Z shka: i need it just to add my own methods
2017-09-12T08:06:10Z shka: to my own GF
2017-09-12T08:14:17Z shka: beach: i will show code once i will write it
2017-09-12T08:14:21Z TMA: GF abbreviation is very context dependent... it means girlfriend outside of lisp related chat
2017-09-12T08:14:36Z shka: TMA: girlfriend? What is that?
2017-09-12T08:14:58Z hajovonta: :)
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2017-09-12T08:16:57Z Shinmera: And in yet other contexts it means Galois Field
2017-09-12T08:17:35Z TMA: a much more approachable concept
2017-09-12T08:17:49Z shka: indeed -_-'
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2017-09-12T08:30:29Z JuanDaugherty: grammatical framework to me
2017-09-12T08:31:03Z JuanDaugherty: (for which there's a channel here)
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2017-09-12T08:32:49Z shka: JuanDaugherty: btw, your nick
2017-09-12T08:32:56Z shka: Joni Mitchell?
2017-09-12T08:33:11Z JuanDaugherty: it's on my birth certificat
2017-09-12T08:33:15Z JuanDaugherty: e
2017-09-12T08:33:26Z shka: oh, ok
2017-09-12T08:35:21Z JuanDaugherty: but take it you are referring to Don Juan's Reckless Daughter
2017-09-12T08:35:28Z shka: yup
2017-09-12T08:36:17Z JuanDaugherty: the Irish name Daugherty doesn't actually come from daughter, just sounds like it does
2017-09-12T08:36:32Z shka: i guess so
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2017-09-12T08:46:35Z shrdlu68: Good morning, Commoners.
2017-09-12T08:50:44Z phoe__: hey shrdlu68
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2017-09-12T08:52:13Z hajovonta: hali
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2017-09-12T09:20:56Z Posterdati: hi
2017-09-12T09:21:09Z Posterdati: shrdlu68: commodores please!
2017-09-12T09:23:18Z White_Flame: shrdlu64
2017-09-12T09:25:37Z Posterdati: yes, seems resonable
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2017-09-12T09:51:26Z Posterdati: please, is there a way to trigget a call to the io-handler in the iolib multiplexer?
2017-09-12T09:51:44Z pjb: Can't you call it directly?
2017-09-12T09:53:07Z Posterdati: pbj: I do not know how to funcall it
2017-09-12T09:53:29Z Posterdati: it is set by set-io-handler
2017-09-12T09:55:13Z pjb: (set-io-handler #'my-nice-handler)  (my-nice-handler) ?
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2017-09-12T09:56:58Z Posterdati: pjb: I have no access to my-nice-handler
2017-09-12T09:58:23Z Posterdati: pjb: I modified the ex8-server code in iolib sockets example
2017-09-12T09:58:24Z pjb: Why do you want to do that?
2017-09-12T09:58:36Z pjb: calling the io-hander?
2017-09-12T09:58:48Z Posterdati: pjb: because I do not need an echo server!
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2017-09-12T10:00:24Z pjb: I don't see the relationship between "you do not need an echo server!" and "trigger a call to the io-handler".
2017-09-12T10:01:09Z Posterdati: pjb: I'm modifying the echo server example
2017-09-12T10:01:39Z Posterdati: pjb: because a I need a server capable to get some commands over a socket and then answer back
2017-09-12T10:01:40Z pjb: (iomux:set-io-handler eb socket :read (setf *saved-handler* (make-whatever-handler-you-want socket id etc)))  (funcall *saved-handler* fd event exception)
2017-09-12T10:02:02Z pjb: Again, I don't know why you would want to do (funcall *saved-handler* fd event exception)
2017-09-12T10:02:24Z pjb: If there's no I/O why would you want to call it?  If there is I/O then it's already called by iolib!
2017-09-12T10:02:26Z Posterdati: because I want to write out data to client
2017-09-12T10:02:31Z pjb: Then write data!
2017-09-12T10:02:43Z pjb: (write-sequence data socket)
2017-09-12T10:03:02Z Posterdati: not using a multiplexer io handler?
2017-09-12T10:03:35Z pjb: The multiplexer is for asynchronous I/O.
2017-09-12T10:04:01Z pjb: otherwise check ICMP.
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2017-09-12T10:37:13Z hajovonta: guys are you aware of a CL library that can do asynchronous ICMP echoes? I need to ping a host periodically and I couldn't find one. Is it a thing that is practically done via FFI?
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2017-09-12T10:40:38Z pillton: All I/O is done by FFI.
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2017-09-12T10:43:13Z loke: To my knowledge there is no FFI library to do direct IP
2017-09-12T10:43:47Z fe[nl]ix: iolib has an example of how to create ICMP packet
2017-09-12T10:43:48Z fe[nl]ix: s
2017-09-12T10:44:32Z loke: wait what? IOLIB can do it?
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2017-09-12T10:44:56Z fe[nl]ix: but you most likely don't want to do that because creating raw sockets requires basically root privileges
2017-09-12T10:45:03Z fe[nl]ix: at least on Linux
2017-09-12T10:45:39Z fe[nl]ix: you're better off spawning a thread that runs /bin/ping and reads its stdout
2017-09-12T10:49:52Z fe[nl]ix: loke: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/extras/ping.lisp
2017-09-12T10:50:36Z loke: ice
2017-09-12T10:50:39Z loke: nice
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2017-09-12T10:51:08Z hajovonta: hm
2017-09-12T10:51:10Z hajovonta: am I?
2017-09-12T10:51:15Z hajovonta: that, I can do.
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2017-09-12T10:51:50Z hajovonta: I'm just a little worried that different linux ping versions may print different output
2017-09-12T10:52:00Z fe[nl]ix: a more sophisticated approach would be to make a small C binary that creates a raw socket and sends it to the main process via a Unix socket
2017-09-12T10:52:08Z fe[nl]ix: then you can setuid that binary
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2017-09-12T10:53:00Z hajovonta: I've already seen the example you wrote above but wasn't able to make it work
2017-09-12T10:53:31Z hajovonta: I don't have C knowledge
2017-09-12T10:53:34Z fe[nl]ix: iolib already has code for receiving file descriptors via a Unix socket, but you'd have to write the C to create and send the file descriptor
2017-09-12T10:54:04Z fe[nl]ix: hajovonta: when I wrote that code I was running Gentoo
2017-09-12T10:54:27Z fe[nl]ix: and I modified the kernel to not require root for raw sockets
2017-09-12T10:54:36Z hajovonta: I see :)
2017-09-12T10:54:39Z fe[nl]ix: recompiling your kernel is easy on Gentoo
2017-09-12T10:54:59Z shrdlu68: It's routine.
2017-09-12T10:55:21Z hajovonta: everything is routine when you've done it enough times :)
2017-09-12T10:55:48Z fe[nl]ix: hajovonta: the output of /bin/ping can vary between OSes but it should be pretty stable on the same OS
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2017-09-12T10:57:07Z hajovonta: that's true. The output is not standardized
2017-09-12T10:57:10Z fe[nl]ix: you can safely assume that /bin/ping is the GNU variant
2017-09-12T10:57:16Z fe[nl]ix: on Linux
2017-09-12T10:57:24Z hajovonta: also, the switches of /bin/ping can differ
2017-09-12T10:57:59Z shrdlu68: How about using iolib and setting suid?
2017-09-12T10:58:08Z fe[nl]ix: on weird distros it could be a symlink to Busybox, but I doubt you care about those
2017-09-12T10:58:11Z shrdlu68: ping essentially does that...
2017-09-12T10:58:50Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: sbcl re-executes itself on start and I don't think that setuid carries along
2017-09-12T10:58:55Z hajovonta: or maybe I can write a python lib that uses raw icmp and uses standardized output and just call that. ;)
2017-09-12T10:59:18Z hajovonta: or C
2017-09-12T10:59:25Z fe[nl]ix: also, if you save a new executable image you have to setuid it again, etc...
2017-09-12T10:59:28Z hajovonta: but I don't know C, so...
2017-09-12T10:59:56Z fe[nl]ix: look at this as a good opportunity to learn C
2017-09-12T11:00:09Z fe[nl]ix: you have a specific goal, which is very good
2017-09-12T11:00:17Z fe[nl]ix: instead of generically "I want to learn C"
2017-09-12T11:00:33Z hajovonta: I already got in touch with C several decades ago...
2017-09-12T11:00:42Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: I can't confirm, have you tried it?
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2017-09-12T11:00:50Z hajovonta: the same is true for Java, PHP and Perl :)
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2017-09-12T11:00:55Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: in the past, yes
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2017-09-12T11:01:45Z shrdlu68: Well he could use a different lisp...
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2017-09-12T11:03:43Z hajovonta: for example?
2017-09-12T11:03:52Z shrdlu68: ecl, ccl
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2017-09-12T11:05:03Z shrdlu68: If the problem here is that one can't effectively use setuid with sbcl, there are other implementations that hopefully don't have this limitation.
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2017-09-12T11:11:43Z _death: you could just use setcap instead of the suid bit
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2017-09-12T13:16:42Z francogrex: hi is it possible to reconnect to a running thread: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR in thread #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {23EE7E89}>   sbcl hangs and i would like to open another sbcl and "attach" it  to that hanging running thread
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2017-09-12T13:22:53Z antoszka: otwieracz: ^ haven't you been dealing with a similar problem recently?
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2017-09-12T13:33:43Z otwieracz: Nope.
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2017-09-12T14:14:59Z hjudt: can anyone help me with cl-json? i want to generate json output like this: { headers: ["h1", "h2", "H3"], data: ["d1", "d2", "d3"] }. i have headers and data as lists. what do i need to do?
2017-09-12T14:15:51Z Bike: according to the manual, you can get a js object if you feed it an alist or a hash table.
2017-09-12T14:15:54Z hjudt: simply (list headers data) gives indexed arrays, but i'd like to have named arrays
2017-09-12T14:16:06Z Bike: so you could do like (list (cons 'headers headers) (cons 'data data))
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2017-09-12T14:17:35Z hjudt: (cl-json:encode-json-to-string (list (cons 'headers '(h1 h2 h3)) (cons 'data '(d1 d2 d3)))) => "[[\"headers\",\"h1\",\"h2\",\"h3\"],[\"data\",\"d1\",\"d2\",\"d3\"]]"
2017-09-12T14:18:10Z hjudt: not what i want. i'd need "[ headers: ..., data: ...]"
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2017-09-12T14:19:08Z Bike: can't believe the manual would deceive me.
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2017-09-12T14:19:47Z Bike: oh, i guess it's because they're lists. genius.
2017-09-12T14:20:27Z Bike: okay, if you do a hash table it does work properly.
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2017-09-12T14:20:45Z Bike: as in, i get {\"headers\" ... } out.
2017-09-12T14:20:53Z scymtym: (json:encode-json-alist '(("headers" . ("h1" "h2")) ("data" . ("d1" "d1")))) should also work
2017-09-12T14:21:12Z Bike: oh, a trick. nice
2017-09-12T14:21:32Z hjudt: scymtym: thanks. that's the solution.
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2017-09-12T14:35:07Z capitaomorte: (sorry, typo :-)
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2017-09-12T15:46:53Z jasom: random lisp fact of the day: caveman2-widgets-bootstrap-test has the deepest dependency chain of any system in quicklisp
2017-09-12T15:47:28Z dim: is it at the top or the bottom of it?
2017-09-12T15:47:51Z jasom: dim: hopefully that's obvious from the name :P
2017-09-12T15:48:20Z dim: fun fact about dependencies: when I picked CL for pgloader I was told “but there's no libs” and when I talked to packagers they said “wow that's too many build dependencies to package” ;-)
2017-09-12T15:49:55Z jasom: yeah, I've noticed packagers not liking python/node/ruby packages with dozens of dependencies.  Perl is similar, but old enough to not raise as many complaints
2017-09-12T15:50:11Z Shinmera: But which system as the most dependencies in total?
2017-09-12T15:50:13Z dim: I think that's because most of them are already packaged
2017-09-12T15:50:14Z Shinmera: *has
2017-09-12T15:50:25Z dim: or because people just use CPAN, like we use Quicklisp
2017-09-12T15:50:41Z jasom: dim: right, but packagers don't want to use CPAN, so they want a package for each dep
2017-09-12T15:51:17Z Shinmera: I'd be fine with the distributions just being the "c package manager" and leaving everything else out on principle.
2017-09-12T15:51:24Z dim: I know, I've been packaging 60 CL libs for debian in order to have pgloader in debign
2017-09-12T15:51:43Z jasom: Shinmera: I can't tell that as easily; my ql2nix builds all systems with 0 deps as a first pass, then each pass later builds all systems with dependencies managed &c. so I can just look at the system in the last pass to see what is built
2017-09-12T15:51:57Z dim: list at https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/tree/master/packages if you're interested into having your cl lib as a debian package
2017-09-12T15:53:17Z dim: Shinmera: welcome to the world of containers
2017-09-12T15:53:26Z dim: I wonder what distributions role is going to be next
2017-09-12T15:54:26Z Shinmera: ... the desktop?
2017-09-12T15:54:28Z Shinmera: :V
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2017-09-12T15:55:19Z jasom: it will be interesting to see how the NixOS folk feel about a PR containing ~2800 common lisp packages ;)
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2017-09-12T15:55:50Z dim: hehe
2017-09-12T15:56:16Z dim: so you're doing ql-to-deb for nix? ah yes you mentionned ql2nix
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2017-09-12T15:57:40Z jasom: I may strip all systems ending in -test; thoughts?
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2017-09-12T15:58:04Z FalonLedner: hi there, I'm trying to customize my emacs org mode agenda view to show only the last 2 heading breadcrumbs, but am new to lisp. How would I get the last 2 items in a list called `org-get-outline-path`?
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2017-09-12T15:58:54Z Bike: probably the 'last' function, but you might want to ask #emacs.
2017-09-12T15:58:54Z jasom: FalonLedner: this channel is for common lisp, try ##lisp or #emacs
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2017-09-12T15:58:57Z dim: FalonLedner: here we talk about Common Lisp, which is not the same as Emacs Lisp
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2017-09-12T15:59:22Z FalonLedner: sorry about that. thank you for the redirection!
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2017-09-12T16:02:46Z fe[nl]ix: _death: setcap doesn't work on many distros because it needs both runtime kernel support and on-disk format support
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2017-09-12T16:11:30Z Shinmera: jasom: Here's some quick crunching: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/666#666
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2017-09-12T16:12:06Z Shinmera: Though the numbers don't seem quite right. For example, Quicklisp has zero dependencies on record for chirp, which definitely isn't right.
2017-09-12T16:12:59Z dim: Shinmera: pushnew :test #'string= rather than unless find push?
2017-09-12T16:13:18Z Shinmera: Yeah yeah, that's from a previous thing
2017-09-12T16:13:31Z Shinmera: No need to style correct for a hack
2017-09-12T16:13:53Z Shinmera: Actually no, the unless encompasses the LET.
2017-09-12T16:14:34Z dim: Shinmera: it's more “am I missing something” than an attempt at correcting code you wrote interactively, no worries ;-)
2017-09-12T16:14:48Z Shinmera: You're missing the let that's conditionalised by the unless
2017-09-12T16:14:55Z dim: yeah, saw that after
2017-09-12T16:15:10Z dim: I'm still not having the full CL standard API in mind
2017-09-12T16:15:38Z dim: though about pushnew in yesterday's late night hacking session
2017-09-12T16:15:46Z dim: I guess now I want to find a use case for it ;-)
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2017-09-12T16:17:16Z jasom: Shinmera: QL has incomplete dependency info, a lot of deps are resolved when ASDF can't find the system
2017-09-12T16:17:28Z jasom: e.g. all package-inferred-systems work that way
2017-09-12T16:18:17Z Shinmera: I'm aware, but for example chirp-drakma does list deps in its asd like usual (chirp-core and drakma) so I don't know why it doesn't report that
2017-09-12T16:19:12Z Shinmera: I thought about loading all ASDs and then using asdf's dependency info, but I couldn't quickly think of a way to do the former part :^)
2017-09-12T16:19:45Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/8952cf126be24ec12986200801e2fc8f
2017-09-12T16:20:23Z jasom: system on left depends on system on right
2017-09-12T16:20:25Z dim: loading asd definitions is something I was interested into at some point too
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2017-09-12T16:22:35Z dim: to implement --self-upgrade in binary images, in order to tell asdf not to load again the dependencies from sources as we have them already
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2017-09-12T16:25:48Z _death: fe[nl]ix: ah, wasn't aware of that
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2017-09-12T16:29:29Z fe[nl]ix: _death: filecaps are implemented as a xattr named security.capability
2017-09-12T16:30:06Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: not all distros work with xattr's out-of-the-box
2017-09-12T16:30:39Z fe[nl]ix: thet's what I said
2017-09-12T16:30:48Z nivpgir: hey, I have a noobish question and it seems like #clnoobs is inactive so Ill ask here:
2017-09-12T16:31:03Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: oh, I had you and _death's comments from earlier reversed
2017-09-12T16:31:22Z dlowe: huh? #clnoobs isn't inactive
2017-09-12T16:31:34Z dlowe: you aren't even joined
2017-09-12T16:31:42Z nivpgir: there was noone there...
2017-09-12T16:31:50Z nivpgir: no, Im not now, I was 2 minutes ago
2017-09-12T16:32:13Z nivpgir: ok nvm, idk what i did wrong
2017-09-12T16:32:27Z nivpgir: i swear I saw it empty a second ago...
2017-09-12T16:32:30Z nivpgir: :(
2017-09-12T16:32:42Z _death: fe[nl]ix: is there something like caniuse.com for linux distros?
2017-09-12T16:33:05Z dlowe: :)
2017-09-12T16:33:12Z dlowe: nivpgir: so what's the question?
2017-09-12T16:33:53Z nivpgir: hey, so Im using 'pop' inside a loop, to iterate over a list, but it's not changing the list
2017-09-12T16:33:59Z nivpgir: the code is this:
2017-09-12T16:34:18Z dlowe: lisp paste!
2017-09-12T16:34:33Z dlowe: nivpgir: are you doing this to an argument to a function and expecting the list to change outside the function?
2017-09-12T16:34:58Z dlowe: nivpgir: please use paste.lisp.org if you want to share code
2017-09-12T16:36:17Z nivpgir: (loop for args = (rest (net.didierverna.clon:cmdline))
2017-09-12T16:36:18Z nivpgir:       until (not args) do
2017-09-12T16:36:18Z nivpgir:         (format t "doing stuff...~A~% (pop args)"))
2017-09-12T16:36:52Z nivpgir: its essentially this
2017-09-12T16:37:34Z dlowe: nivpgir: so, you really should have followed my advice
2017-09-12T16:37:35Z nivpgir: but the loop never exits...
2017-09-12T16:38:48Z nivpgir: even for such a small snippet? ok, sorry...
2017-09-12T16:38:50Z dlowe: loop for args = sets its argument every iteraction of the loop
2017-09-12T16:38:59Z dlowe: every iteration
2017-09-12T16:39:25Z dlowe: you probably want "with args ="
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2017-09-12T16:40:03Z dlowe: or even (loop for arg in (rest cmdline) do (format t "doing stuff ~a~%" arg))
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2017-09-12T16:41:09Z nivpgir: oh, I thought it sets it only on the first iteration, since when I add a 'then' part, it does in face update accordingly...
2017-09-12T16:41:34Z dlowe: for x = <form> then <form> is a different thing
2017-09-12T16:41:58Z nivpgir: yes, I understand now...
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2017-09-12T16:43:07Z nonameanonymous: hello
2017-09-12T16:43:14Z nonameanonymous: anyone here can help me?
2017-09-12T16:43:20Z _death: you should also know that pop modifies the place it is supplied with, so (pop args) would modify args, a variable, not the list
2017-09-12T16:43:37Z nivpgir: the alternative you suggested wont work for me, cause I actually want the body of the loop to consume more elements from the list, and the amount of elements it should consume is different depending on the first one
2017-09-12T16:43:51Z jasom: nonameanonymous: we can help if your problem is related to common lisp
2017-09-12T16:43:56Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-09-12T16:44:10Z nonameanonymous: i want to know how to write a simple game in common lisp
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2017-09-12T16:44:54Z nivpgir: what does it mean it would change arg, and not the list? arg is supposed to be the list of command line args in this example (or a copy of it, I presume)
2017-09-12T16:45:01Z jasom: nivpgir: (loop with cmdline = (rest (net.didierverna.clon:cmdline)) for arg = (pop cmdline) ...)
2017-09-12T16:45:28Z jasom: nivpgir: pop only changes what the variable points to, it doesn't modify the actual list
2017-09-12T16:45:29Z nonameanonymous: hey, how i write a game in clisp?
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2017-09-12T16:45:59Z jasom: nonameanonymous: that's a very broad question; perhaps the kind folks in #lispgames could point you to a tutorial
2017-09-12T16:46:18Z nonameanonymous: ok thank you all
2017-09-12T16:46:34Z jasom: nonameanonymous: for a snarky non-answer the steps are 1) Learn lisp 2) learn how to write games, 3) write games in lisp :P
2017-09-12T16:47:07Z _death: there are existing open-source lisp games you can look at..
2017-09-12T16:47:28Z nivpgir: Im confused, in my case, isnt args a variable thats pointing to a list...?
2017-09-12T16:48:03Z _death: nivpgir: yes.. and (pop args) roughly translates to (setq args (rest args))
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2017-09-12T16:49:52Z dlowe: nivpgir: there's a #lispgames channel
2017-09-12T16:50:34Z nivpgir: not my question...
2017-09-12T16:51:11Z dlowe: sorry.
2017-09-12T16:51:24Z nivpgir: jasom: so youre saying that in fact in my case, there is no difference, right?
2017-09-12T16:51:36Z nivpgir: Im not sure I understand the general case
2017-09-12T16:51:49Z marvin3: nivpgir it changes the variable (where the reference is pointing to), but does not change the list itself
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2017-09-12T16:54:29Z nivpgir: so if i had, list1 = (1 2 3), and then I do (setq list2 list1), followed by a (pop list2), I would get that list 2 points to a list which is (2 3), while list1 would still be (1 2 3)?
2017-09-12T16:54:44Z _death: correct
2017-09-12T16:54:52Z nivpgir: ok, got it, thanks
2017-09-12T16:54:58Z dlowe: nivpgir: yeah. Lists in lisp are a bunch of cons cells that point to each other, not a discrete piece of data
2017-09-12T16:55:40Z nivpgir: yep , okay, understood, thanks
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2017-09-12T16:56:15Z nivpgir: sorry, I got here instead of clnoobs, Ill be more carefule next time...
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2017-09-12T16:57:56Z _death: but (let ((list1 (list (list 'a 'b 'c) 'd)) (list2 list1)) (pop (car list1)) (values list1 list2)) => ((b c) d), ((b c) d) .. in this case the place was the first element of the shared list
2017-09-12T16:58:23Z _death: let*
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2017-09-12T17:05:50Z nivpgir: _death: yes, thanks, I get it, the internal lists part is a bit like python, so its more natural for me
2017-09-12T17:06:35Z dlowe: ok, it's not at all like python, where "lists" are actually vectors
2017-09-12T17:06:59Z dlowe: it's just an old-style linked list with boxes and arrows
2017-09-12T17:08:51Z phoe: hhey hey hey
2017-09-12T17:09:24Z shka_: it is linked list, right?
2017-09-12T17:09:30Z shka_: it is not obsolete
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2017-09-12T17:11:01Z _death: there are two different concerns, places and lists.. POP combines them to do its work, but I think the list aspect of this issue is not relevant
2017-09-12T17:14:21Z dlowe: its characteristics are a bit more complicated now in this day of cpu caches
2017-09-12T17:17:03Z _death: or well, I guess with other structures you'd tend not to use variables-as-places, so maybe it's relevant in this way
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2017-09-12T17:23:01Z _death: once you understand what gets modified, you can better understand how modify macros can be useful, even if the data structure is immutable.. (let ((x (fset:empty-map))) (fset:includef x 'a 1) x)
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2017-09-12T18:41:54Z astronavt: whats the go-to library for spawning a process from a shell command?
2017-09-12T18:42:28Z astronavt: i see trivial-shell inferior-shell and execute-program
2017-09-12T18:42:39Z astronavt: any reason to choose one or another?
2017-09-12T18:43:56Z dlowe: they're portability libraries, because each implementation has a different system
2017-09-12T18:44:26Z dlowe: uiop:run-program is probably the most pragmatic
2017-09-12T18:44:39Z dlowe: you may even have it already installed
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2017-09-12T20:14:23Z knusbaum: Trying to remember the FORMAT directive for printing one thing if the arg is T and another if it's NIL. I thought there was one.
2017-09-12T20:17:39Z knusbaum: "~[" that's it.
2017-09-12T20:17:44Z Xach: glad to help
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2017-09-12T20:20:33Z pjb: knusbaum: ~:[ for alternatives. ~[ is for indexed cases.  (format nil "~:[a~;b~]" 3) #| --> "b" |#   (format nil "~[zero~;wouane~;too~;threeey~;foor~]" 3) #| --> "threeey" |#
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2017-09-12T20:37:15Z astronavt: phoe thx
2017-09-12T20:38:02Z astronavt: format string syntax is probably my least favorite thing about CL so far
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2017-09-12T20:39:47Z Xach: I like to keep it really simple, plus a couple complicated things I use so much I remember the syntax. Mostly.
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2017-09-12T20:39:59Z Xach: I think everyone has a different set of "couple of complicated things" though.
2017-09-12T20:41:18Z edgar-rft: (format nil "overly whacky format string") => complete-lisp-program-as-string
2017-09-12T20:41:53Z astronavt: right
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2017-09-12T20:42:13Z astronavt: i guess its in the style of CL to have "a very specific function for everything"
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2017-09-12T21:12:57Z Bike: if you don't want to use format you can do pretty much everything it does with some particular macros and functions, it's just more diffuse
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2017-09-12T21:17:16Z hjudt: Shinmera: regarding the organization of javascript files, you mentioned i should put my code into a separate file (because of caching?). i moved most code out to a common file now, however there will always be some code that is specific to the page. do you advise to separate this code out to an extra file too or is it ok to leave it in the html template inside a cdata block?
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2017-09-12T21:18:13Z hjudt: this is mainly stuff that happens in document.ready()
2017-09-12T21:19:16Z dim: Xach: for me it would be justification with ~10<~> and such, in particular with lists
2017-09-12T21:19:37Z dim: but I don't remember it, I look it up or remember last time I used it when I need it again :/
2017-09-12T21:20:34Z dim: hjudt: I guess not cacching so much as cost to open a new connection on mobile devices in particular
2017-09-12T21:22:27Z hjudt: dim: so it's actually best to just separate out common code into e.g. common.js but leave page-specific code inside the template, right?
2017-09-12T21:24:31Z dim: depends on what you want to achieve I suppose
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2017-09-12T21:24:53Z dim: for browser/user experience it's best to limit how many connections to open, unless using http/2 I think
2017-09-12T21:26:33Z hjudt: afaik there is no way to use http/2 with lisp yet. there is https://github.com/akamai/cl-http2-protocol, but this is not used by anything lispy.
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2017-09-12T21:29:20Z hjudt: anyway, i am currently using radiance which is actually great with its api output to json and javascript to populate pages with data from ajax calls.
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2017-09-12T21:29:48Z jmercouris: would it be considered bad practice to put all of my macros in a separate macros file?
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2017-09-12T21:30:01Z jmercouris: so that they can be evaluated first?
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2017-09-12T21:36:42Z phoe: jmercouris: no, not at all
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2017-09-12T21:36:52Z phoe: I often do the same in my projects, actually
2017-09-12T21:36:56Z jmercouris: phoe: okay, thank you!
2017-09-12T21:37:22Z phoe: and also so the syntax I use is separated from the code using that syntax
2017-09-12T21:37:35Z jmercouris: right, that's exactly what I am trying to do
2017-09-12T21:37:46Z phoe: then go ahead
2017-09-12T21:38:00Z jmercouris: will do!
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2017-09-12T21:42:17Z jasom: hjudt: you can use any lisp webserver behind a http/2 reverse proxy
2017-09-12T21:42:54Z jmercouris: hello everyone, I'm trying to get a simple macro expansion working, and I can't figure out what is wrong: https://pastebin.com/zgXz4HXQ
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2017-09-12T21:50:16Z jmercouris: update: seems it was working, I wasn't testing it quoted
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2017-09-12T22:38:34Z rpg: Is there a function (say in alexandria) that takes a list or a tree and an alist of substitutions, and does them all, instead of substituting one at a time?
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2017-09-12T22:41:54Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: cl:sublis
2017-09-12T22:42:22Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Thanks! Not sure how I missed that!
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2017-09-13T01:58:36Z jmercouris: hello everyone, I'm looking to store browser history, I was thinking about storing it in an SQLite db. What I'm concerned about is changability over time, and laginess with the size of the db growing
2017-09-13T01:58:56Z jmercouris: i was also thinking about using this sqlite interface: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-sqlite/
2017-09-13T01:58:59Z jmercouris: any feedback?
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2017-09-13T02:19:52Z pierpa: laginess with size shouldn't be a problem. SQLite can handle gigabytes dbs
2017-09-13T02:20:13Z pierpa: and you can also trim the db if it grows too large
2017-09-13T02:21:59Z jmercouris: pierpa: what about using a key-value db, wouldn't that be quicker for some types of queries? like for specific tags in history etc
2017-09-13T02:24:40Z jmercouris: pierpa: can you think of a good way to perform quick queries about the nature of non-numerical data in a sqlite db? e.g. if each element has a set of tags, how could I collect those quickly without maintaining a separate table for every tag?
2017-09-13T02:25:02Z jmercouris: as an example, find all history elements with the tag of "search engine query" or something like that
2017-09-13T02:25:18Z jmercouris: I could obviously have a table that points to them, but is there a better way?
2017-09-13T02:25:58Z jmercouris: also if I have a table that points to them, the reverse relationship might take forever to query, e.g. what are the following tags associated with this history item
2017-09-13T02:29:57Z Zhivago: You can always intern them to integers, but doesn't it support strings already?
2017-09-13T02:30:40Z jmercouris: Zhivago: sqlite supports strings
2017-09-13T02:31:05Z jmercouris: let me rephrase my question, let's say I had a bunch of items with specific tags, how can i query for items with tag x
2017-09-13T02:31:13Z jmercouris: each item being a row in the db
2017-09-13T02:31:50Z Zhivago: Does it handle arrays of values and a contains operator?
2017-09-13T02:32:27Z Zhivago: Although if you want the tags to be primary keys, then they'll need to be in distinct columns.
2017-09-13T02:33:41Z Zhivago: You could set up another table for item-tag relationships, and then do an exciting join againt the item-data.
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2017-09-13T02:36:40Z Zhivago: Then the tags could be in a single column and it would be potentially efficient to look up.
2017-09-13T02:37:24Z jmercouris: Zhivago: won't the contains op be very slow on large data sets?
2017-09-13T02:37:44Z jmercouris: an item-tag relationship table would good, but would I not require two tables?
2017-09-13T02:38:18Z jmercouris: so i'd need a tag --> items, and then a item --> tags table, right?
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2017-09-13T02:56:05Z Zhivago: It should be able to efficiently index the tags column.
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2017-09-13T02:57:06Z Zhivago: You'd end up with (item-id-1, tag-1), (item-id-1, tag-2), (item-id-2, tag-1), etc, tuples in the table.
2017-09-13T02:58:01Z Zhivago: Presumably the SQL system should be able to arrange its indexes to efficiently answer queries like "select item-id where tag='tag-1'".
2017-09-13T02:58:48Z jmercouris: Zhivago: I understand how that works for a single tag, but how could I query for multiple tags?
2017-09-13T02:59:05Z jmercouris: and shouldn't it be something like "where tag contains 'tag-1'"?
2017-09-13T02:59:22Z jmercouris: would I have to do multiple queries and a join? sorry for the questions, dbs are not one of my strong suits
2017-09-13T03:06:35Z pierpa: no, you do one query. The query optimizer of the DB will devise a way to perform the query efficiently
2017-09-13T03:08:09Z pierpa: the kind of situation you describe is a very typical, and DB handle this very well
2017-09-13T03:08:17Z pierpa: a very typical one
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2017-09-13T03:09:07Z pierpa: you only need a good SQL tutorial :)
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2017-09-13T03:10:44Z jmercouris: pierpa: okay, that makes me feel a little better about using sqlite :D thanks!
2017-09-13T03:11:07Z pierpa: ;)
2017-09-13T03:11:26Z jmercouris: I guess time to look for a good sql tutorial
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2017-09-13T03:15:27Z jmercouris: pierpa: is any of these the approach you describe? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2885564/ways-to-implement-tags-pros-and-cons-of-each
2017-09-13T03:18:15Z jmercouris: pierpa: or did you mean this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3498844/sqlite-string-contains-other-string-query?
2017-09-13T03:18:45Z pierpa: I'm no DB expert, but I'd say way 1 and 3 are dumb, way 2 the only acceptable, but I may be wrong
2017-09-13T03:19:29Z pierpa: no wait, way 3 is ok too :)
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2017-09-13T03:21:10Z pierpa: let me rephrase: way 3 is good, way 2 less so but is simpler and for small DBs may be viable, way 1 is dumb
2017-09-13T03:21:31Z jmercouris: I see, so no good indexing + contains?
2017-09-13T03:21:42Z jmercouris: so none of this:https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3498844/sqlite-string-contains-other-string-query
2017-09-13T03:22:07Z pierpa: you mean contains as a string, or the set of tags contains a subset of tags?
2017-09-13T03:22:24Z jmercouris: let me make a paste one sec
2017-09-13T03:23:56Z jmercouris: https://pastebin.com/ELZL1uUg
2017-09-13T03:24:15Z pierpa: do you really need to match substrings, or you considered this only as a possible approach?
2017-09-13T03:24:48Z jmercouris: pierpa: I only considered at as a possible approach
2017-09-13T03:24:57Z pierpa: you mean you are doing as in way 1
2017-09-13T03:25:00Z jmercouris: it doesn't strongly matter to me how the data is matched, just that there are tags
2017-09-13T03:25:05Z jmercouris: and that I can query them
2017-09-13T03:25:20Z jmercouris: pierpa: as of now, I am not doing it in any way, i haven't started on the implementation yet, just seeking advice before i start
2017-09-13T03:25:26Z pierpa: ok
2017-09-13T03:25:31Z jmercouris: I even thought about using something like unql
2017-09-13T03:25:48Z jmercouris: I'm not sure how people will want to query their history, by date, by tags? by url?
2017-09-13T03:25:52Z pierpa: I think storing tags as a comma separated list of names in a string is not a good idea
2017-09-13T03:26:02Z jmercouris: pierpa: I would agree with that
2017-09-13T03:26:43Z pierpa: do you understand way 2 and way 3 in the stackoverflow link?
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2017-09-13T03:27:23Z pierpa: anyway, sorry must go to bed. Almost dawn here ;)
2017-09-13T03:27:35Z jmercouris: I understand them yes :D
2017-09-13T03:27:37Z jmercouris: goodnight!
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2017-09-13T03:51:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-13T03:53:24Z listpr: Good morning
2017-09-13T03:55:21Z beach: listpr: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2017-09-13T03:55:46Z listpr: im new and anonymous :)
2017-09-13T03:55:58Z listpr: i dont register
2017-09-13T03:56:06Z beach: Fair enough.
2017-09-13T03:56:13Z beach: What brings you to #lisp?
2017-09-13T03:56:35Z listpr: i love lisp
2017-09-13T03:56:48Z listpr: i just learn lisp in few month
2017-09-13T03:57:14Z beach: Sounds good.
2017-09-13T03:57:18Z listpr: i want to talk with pro to advandce my skill
2017-09-13T03:57:38Z listpr: yeah
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2017-09-13T05:03:15Z dmh: listpr: same
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2017-09-13T05:04:10Z listpr: yes and do you like game in lisp?
2017-09-13T05:05:09Z dmh: no
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2017-09-13T05:20:55Z beach: listpr: There is a channel for that: #lispgames.
2017-09-13T05:21:11Z beach: listpr: I don't know how active it is, though, because I am not a participant.
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2017-09-13T05:26:16Z mfiano: actually it is more active than this channel
2017-09-13T05:28:47Z beach: Excellent!
2017-09-13T05:28:50Z mfiano: estimated from log file sizes with non-channel-messages stripped, for about a decade of data, that is.
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2017-09-13T05:30:47Z mfiano: It has been a bit less active the last month or 2, but that is expected to pick up again next month when the jam starts. might be a good time to mention if anyone is interested: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-hard-mode
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2017-09-13T06:22:42Z Shinmera: hjudt: If you have few pages, make a file per page. If you have lots with little code, make one file that activates the code depending on which page you're on.
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2017-09-13T15:56:35Z QuirkyCorgi: (cons 1 2)
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2017-09-13T15:57:35Z beach: (1 . 2)
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2017-09-13T15:59:48Z dim: that's not exactly the best way to prove you're not a bot ;-)
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2017-09-13T16:00:43Z beach: I'm not a bot.  I prefer the term "eletronically composed".
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2017-09-13T16:00:50Z dim: nice
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2017-09-13T16:01:20Z dim: I restarted reading PAIP today, and learnt the format string ~@vt
2017-09-13T16:01:43Z dim: and it turns out I needed it to indent output
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2017-09-13T16:01:52Z beach: I use it all the time in docstrings.
2017-09-13T16:02:20Z beach: #.(format nil "blabla~@...")
2017-09-13T16:02:22Z dim: (I used (format nil "~a" (make-string n :initial-element #\Space)) before)
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2017-09-13T16:02:55Z dim: (format nil "~v@t" 2) --> "  "
2017-09-13T16:03:14Z beach: Ah, I see.
2017-09-13T16:03:21Z dim: oh sorry, I said ~@vt instead of ~v@t
2017-09-13T16:03:30Z dim: mmppff, format srings.
2017-09-13T16:03:33Z listpr: well, well, well...we have good guys :D
2017-09-13T16:03:36Z beach: Yeah, I get it.
2017-09-13T16:07:11Z dim: also changed a build+walk into a build-time for a recursive data structure with “chapter numbering”, which is nice
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2017-09-13T16:14:15Z listpr: someone can give me a file pdf of PAIP?
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2017-09-13T16:16:52Z beach: listpr: That would be illegal.
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2017-09-13T16:18:09Z listpr: why illegal? it's not have any file to free?
2017-09-13T16:19:00Z listpr: that mean, somebody can share for me PAIP?
2017-09-13T16:19:02Z beach: It would be illegal, because the book has a copyright which makes it illegal to copy it.
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2017-09-13T16:20:13Z pjb: listpr: you will have to wait 70 years after the death of the authors.  Next time, be more careful who you elect to make your laws!
2017-09-13T16:20:22Z beach: I am sorry to tell you that this is the case, especially since we are on freenode, but that's the law in most countries who signed the Berne Convention.
2017-09-13T16:20:35Z listpr: ok, maybe i will buy it in the future.
2017-09-13T16:20:55Z pjb: Or elect representative with better ideas…
2017-09-13T16:21:14Z beach: 70 years is really excessive.
2017-09-13T16:21:25Z beach: Maybe the EU parliament can change it.
2017-09-13T16:21:58Z listpr: that's fine. i understood.
2017-09-13T16:22:06Z pjb: If it was not obvious, I was joking.  The EU parliament is entirely bought by lobbies.
2017-09-13T16:22:17Z shrdlu68: listpr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Genesis
2017-09-13T16:22:38Z beach: pjb: We made them agree to vote against software patents.
2017-09-13T16:23:57Z pjb: Big companies are also against software patents. It's a burden for them too to have to build patents portfolio to avoid lawsuits…
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2017-09-13T16:25:15Z beach: They ought to be against software patents.  It is not that clear to me that most of them actually are.  I often find that companies do not act in their own best interest.
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2017-09-13T16:30:37Z Shinmera: PAIP is pretty expensive due to it not being in print anymore, but I don't regret spending the money on it that I did
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2017-09-13T16:32:19Z beach: I don't regret buying it either (I bought it when it was still in print).  But I can understand people who (need to) have different priorities in their budgets.
2017-09-13T16:32:50Z Xach: It can occasionally be found used on ebay for a fraction of the normal used cost. (I realize this only works if you have easy access to ebay and cheap shipping.)
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2017-09-13T16:33:08Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly I bought it on Amazon for like 80.-
2017-09-13T16:33:19Z beach: In what currency?
2017-09-13T16:33:28Z Shinmera: Which is not that bad by textbook standards of that size
2017-09-13T16:33:31Z Shinmera: beach: Chf
2017-09-13T16:33:41Z _death: Norvig mentioned to me some years ago that he planned on making it freely available, so somebody may want to inquire him on the matter
2017-09-13T16:33:42Z Shinmera: which is roughly the same as dollar.
2017-09-13T16:34:01Z Xach: _death: good to know!
2017-09-13T16:35:08Z beach: Shinmera: Wow!  Didn't CHF used to be worth much more?
2017-09-13T16:35:22Z Shinmera: beach: so did the dollar, heh
2017-09-13T16:35:38Z Xach: There are a few copies on ebay for under $75 today.
2017-09-13T16:35:53Z beach: Shinmera: Hmm, OK.
2017-09-13T16:35:57Z Xach: I got a copy of ANSI Common Lisp for around $10 on ebay some time ago.
2017-09-13T16:36:03Z Shinmera: beach: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CHF&view=10Y
2017-09-13T16:36:32Z Shinmera: That doesn't go that far back, unfortunately, but they've been pretty close during my lifetime.
2017-09-13T16:36:53Z beach: OK, I must be misremembering.
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2017-09-13T16:37:51Z beach: _death: Norvig might not be at liberty to do that.  I am pretty sure it would require some negotiations with the publisher.
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2017-09-13T16:38:07Z _death: beach: well, I'm guessing he knows that
2017-09-13T16:38:14Z Shinmera: Oh, this site allows you to go back really far: https://tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/currency (click "historical" and then "max")
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2017-09-13T16:39:47Z beach: Shinmera: So my memory of it might just be very old.
2017-09-13T16:40:00Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2017-09-13T16:45:59Z jasom: I've never read PAIP, but I think my dad has a copy, it's definitely worth a read?
2017-09-13T16:46:17Z beach: Yes, definitely.
2017-09-13T16:46:22Z _death: jasom: it's my favorite programming book
2017-09-13T16:47:03Z beach: jasom: In fact, it is not very much about AI at all, other than the example domains that have been chosen.  It is more about general techniques for programming in Common Lisp.
2017-09-13T16:47:30Z Shinmera: Well, I would say it is very much about AI, but perhaps not in the way that we like to think of AI.
2017-09-13T16:47:36Z jasom is surprised that a book can be going for high prices used and not be in print (assuming someone has the rights to publish it).  It's not that expensive to print a book, so unless Norvig is guaranteed unreasonably high royalties, they're leaving money on the table.
2017-09-13T16:47:45Z shrdlu68: There's an implementation of prolog in cl in that book.
2017-09-13T16:47:46Z Shinmera: It would perhaps be more appropriate to say that it's about general problem solving techniques.
2017-09-13T16:48:01Z Shinmera: But that doesn't have the same ring to it as AI :)
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2017-09-13T16:48:28Z jasom: It's from an era when AI was more about teaching machines to solve problems through first principles rather than probabalistic techniques
2017-09-13T16:48:37Z shrdlu68: He reimplements several of the early AI successes, like STUDENT and GPS.
2017-09-13T16:49:34Z dlowe: we still use those techniques, btw, to extract features for our neural nets
2017-09-13T16:49:47Z shrdlu68 was delighted when he found a copy in his uni library.
2017-09-13T16:50:34Z Shinmera: ETH's library is so immense it's practically guaranteed they have a copy, but I never checked, heh
2017-09-13T16:50:45Z jasom: ETH?
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2017-09-13T16:51:13Z Shinmera: Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (Federal Institute of Technology). Switzerland's top university.
2017-09-13T16:51:37Z Shinmera: In the world top ten, I believe
2017-09-13T16:51:39Z jasom keeps forgetting that you are swiss
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2017-09-13T16:52:04Z Shinmera: Aside from my love for Swiss German, I'm not very Swiss I would say, hah.
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2017-09-13T16:52:46Z jasom: hah, my neighbor also speaks swiss german which is frustrating because I know enough german to barely get by in germany which means I understand less than 10% of the words he speaks
2017-09-13T16:53:02Z shrdlu68: Wasn't the only lisp book I found, also found a seemingly little-known gem of computational semantics written by Wilks and Charniark, and other fun stuff.
2017-09-13T16:53:59Z Shinmera: jasom: So he talks Swiss German with you? That's kinda rude. A lot of people will switch to German if they know the other doesn't speak Swiss.
2017-09-13T16:54:15Z jasom: Shinmera: no, but he talks swiss german with his family while in the backyard
2017-09-13T16:54:22Z Shinmera: Aha!
2017-09-13T16:55:28Z jasom: And it's very distracting to me to overhear something I only mostly don't understand
2017-09-13T16:55:42Z jasom: If it's a language I speak, then I can tune it out, same if I don't know it at all
2017-09-13T16:55:55Z Shinmera: Understandable. That's what it's like for me when I read beach & co. in #clasp
2017-09-13T16:56:16Z beach: Oh?  How so?
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2017-09-13T16:56:22Z jasom: thought it's been long enough since I've been to germany or austria that german is rapidly moving into that category too
2017-09-13T16:56:36Z Shinmera: beach: I'm by far not as well-versed in the compiler tech as you guys are.
2017-09-13T16:56:46Z beach: Ah, OK.  So it is about terminology.
2017-09-13T16:56:55Z Shinmera: And concepts
2017-09-13T16:56:59Z beach: Got it.
2017-09-13T16:57:06Z jasom: haha "I know all of those words, just not well enough to understand how they fit together"
2017-09-13T16:57:27Z beach vanishes because his (admittedly small) family is announcing that dinner is ready.
2017-09-13T16:58:00Z jasom: Shinmera: read beach's papers if you get a chance, he has most of then up on the web and they are quit accessible with just a bit of extra reading
2017-09-13T16:58:22Z Shinmera: I have
2017-09-13T16:58:28Z Shinmera: but most of Cleavir isn't yet in paper form :)
2017-09-13T16:58:44Z jasom: beach apparently hasn't learned the fine art of sounding more erudite by obfuscating your language that many other PhDs seem to use...
2017-09-13T16:58:48Z Shinmera: especially not the brand new stuff, or stuff specifically to Clasp.
2017-09-13T16:58:59Z Shinmera: jasom: Hah!
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2017-09-13T16:59:18Z jasom: And also having exactly one less diagram than would be needed to easily communicate your point.
2017-09-13T16:59:36Z Shinmera: Don't forget the wonderful practice of not publishing your source code
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2017-09-13T16:59:57Z shrdlu68: What source code?
2017-09-13T17:00:08Z Shinmera: The one that's absent from a lot of papers
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2017-09-13T17:00:50Z jasom: one of my former profs had a great article on how to insult CS researchers.  https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dec/essay.criticize.html
2017-09-13T17:01:44Z Shinmera: jasom: The preamble is making me exited already
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2017-09-13T17:07:18Z jasom: I took a class taught by him after spending two summers working on ATM (the protocol, not the bank machine) switches; his shelf looks like this: https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dec/books.html ... there may have been some culture clash there.
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2017-09-13T17:08:49Z Shinmera: Hah!
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2017-09-13T17:10:29Z jasom: His networking book dedicated an entire chapter to why ATM was stupid IIRC
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2017-09-13T17:11:49Z Shinmera: Ouch, heh.
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2017-09-13T17:23:40Z rumbler31: where can I find beach's papers?
2017-09-13T17:24:14Z WhyNOP: love how the paper is an example unto itself
2017-09-13T17:24:32Z dim: PAIP also introduces a notion of Data Driven Programming that has nothing to do whatsoever to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data-driven_programming ; are there other public references to the idea?
2017-09-13T17:24:48Z Shinmera: rumbler31: google: site:metamodular.com filetype:pdf
2017-09-13T17:29:30Z rumbler31: ty
2017-09-13T17:29:40Z dim: “This style of programming is called date-driven programming, because the data (the list of rewrites associated with a category) drives what the program does next. It is a natural and easy-to-use style in Lisp, leading to concise ans extensible programs, because it is always possible to add a new piece of data with a new association without having to modify the original program.” PAIP, p. 41
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2017-09-13T17:30:29Z dim: I would like to compare that to proper database modeling, so public references of the same idea (not the one in the wikipedia page with the same name) would be good. Ideas?
2017-09-13T17:30:51Z dim: (wikipedia sayth that data-driven programming == awk, basically)
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2017-09-13T17:42:19Z didi: How would you write a ZIP function that continues until it consumes the largest list? e.g. (zip '(1 2) '(3)) => '((1 3) (2))
2017-09-13T17:42:20Z _death: dim: the wikipedia article is pretty bad, but I wouldn't say the two notions have "nothing to do whatsoever" with each other
2017-09-13T17:43:25Z _death: dim: another common related name is "table-driven"
2017-09-13T17:43:37Z dim: yeah well, let's say it isn't what I wanted to read then ;-)
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2017-09-13T17:44:34Z dim: table-driven is more like what I had in mind apparently, from a couple refs on the top of a google search, thx
2017-09-13T17:45:09Z _death: dim: also check out http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch09s01.html
2017-09-13T17:45:10Z jasom: didi: O
2017-09-13T17:45:20Z jasom: didi: I'd use a loop?
2017-09-13T17:45:40Z didi: jasom: Could you write me one?
2017-09-13T17:46:16Z didi: All functions that I think of using stop when the shortest list ends.
2017-09-13T17:46:30Z jasom: didi: if it were fixed arity it's easy enough: (loop for a on l1 b on l2 while (or a b) ...)
2017-09-13T17:46:55Z dim: _death: thanks!
2017-09-13T17:47:10Z jasom: didi: non-fixed arity (loop for lists = args then (mapcar #'cdr lists) ...)
2017-09-13T17:47:54Z didi: jasom: Let me try it.
2017-09-13T17:47:57Z dim: didi: create an extended list/array of the right size first? make-array ... then replace?
2017-09-13T17:48:33Z didi: dim: I thought of that, but sounded like wasting effort.
2017-09-13T17:48:48Z dim: try it and see?
2017-09-13T17:48:53Z didi: dim: Sure.
2017-09-13T17:48:54Z jasom: didi: non-fixed arity (loop for lists = args then (mapcar #'cdr lists) while (member-if-not #'not lists) ...)
2017-09-13T17:48:58Z dim: worst case you have working code to improve
2017-09-13T17:50:02Z jasom: didi: untested, but possibly complete: (loop for lists = args then (mapcar #'cdr lists) while (member-if-not #'not lists) collect (mapcar #'car (remove nil lists))
2017-09-13T17:50:24Z didi: jasom: Looks scary.
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2017-09-13T17:51:38Z jasom: didi: the member-if-not #'not is the only "cute" part
2017-09-13T17:51:45Z jasom: didi: less scary if on multiple lines
2017-09-13T17:52:33Z jasom: didi: and it works for your test-case at least
2017-09-13T17:53:11Z jasom: the fact that it worked on the first try without me even opening it in emacs to write it makes me think it's not too bad
2017-09-13T17:54:01Z didi: :-)
2017-09-13T17:54:06Z jasom: I'm open to suggestions for "contains at least one non-nil" tests that are less cute than (member-if-not #'not ...)
2017-09-13T17:54:15Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355759 <- indented version
2017-09-13T17:55:21Z jasom: line by line: "set lists to all of the lists, then the cdr of all of the lists" "while there is no item in the list for which #'not returns false" collect the car of all non-nil lists
2017-09-13T17:55:33Z jasom: duh (member-if #'identity lists)
2017-09-13T17:56:34Z jasom: annotated with that de-obfuscation
2017-09-13T17:58:00Z jasom: until (every #'null lists) might also be a clear test; open to suggestions for which is better
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2017-09-13T17:59:13Z jasom: A well written loop should read quite closesly to how you would explain what the code does, and I think this follows that rule.
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2017-09-13T18:03:21Z didi: jasom: Thank you. :-)
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2017-09-13T18:03:56Z mfiano: I use these https://github.com/mfiano/gamebox-dgen/blob/master/src/util.lisp
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2017-09-13T18:04:20Z mfiano: I think ANY is a solution but I didn't read the whole conversation
2017-09-13T18:05:58Z didi: mfiano: (apply #'some #'identity '((1 2) (3))) errors.
2017-09-13T18:07:04Z mfiano: Don't use apply if you're going to call it like that
2017-09-13T18:07:35Z didi: mfiano: I tried to mimic the function call. Did I make a mistake?
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2017-09-13T18:09:57Z _death: some and every terminate when the shortest sequence terminate or sooner
2017-09-13T18:10:04Z _death: *terminates
2017-09-13T18:10:54Z jasom: while (some #'identity lists) is probably the best
2017-09-13T18:11:02Z mfiano: (some #'identity '(nil nil nil "contains at least 1 non-NIL" 1 2 3)) => "contains at least 1 non-NIL"
2017-09-13T18:11:46Z _death: yes, here it's one sequence
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2017-09-13T18:14:19Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355759#3 ; "set lists to args then the cdr of each arg" "while lists contains some non-nil items" "collect the car of all non-nil items"
2017-09-13T18:15:05Z didi: jasom: I like `until (every #'null lists)' better.
2017-09-13T18:15:52Z jasom: didi: yeah, and performence is likely not a concern since you're not going to be zipping up hundreds of lists (I hope)
2017-09-13T18:16:32Z didi: jasom: Nah. Just a few. Probably not more than 10, ever.
2017-09-13T18:16:38Z jasom: actually every short-circuits anyways
2017-09-13T18:17:13Z jasom: and it's reasonable to assume that the lists will be similar in size, so just one test for the majority of iterations
2017-09-13T18:17:43Z jasom: worst-case performance would be (zip nil nil nil nil ... some-long-list)
2017-09-13T18:18:01Z didi: In my use case, they are different by 2, at most. Most by 1.
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2017-09-13T18:55:16Z didi: I've read PCL's chapter on conditions and restarts many times, but I think this is the first time I will actually use the feature.
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2017-09-13T19:35:53Z gabbiel: how do I into utf8 in CL SBCL
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2017-09-13T19:38:06Z dlowe: gabbiel: I think you're missing a verb there.
2017-09-13T19:39:13Z gabbiel: sorry
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2017-09-13T19:40:44Z Bike: What do you wa;nt to do?
2017-09-13T19:40:56Z dlowe: gabbiel: that doesn't really help us answer your question.
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2017-09-13T19:43:52Z phoe_: gabbiel: FLEXI-STREAMS, use the :UTF-8 external format.
2017-09-13T19:44:32Z gabbiel: i look into
2017-09-13T19:44:34Z gabbiel: it
2017-09-13T19:44:37Z gabbiel: now
2017-09-13T19:44:53Z phoe_: you can (STRING-TO-OCTETS string :EXTERNAL-FORMAT :UTF-8) and this will produce a sequence of bytes for you that you can then dump into a file.
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2017-09-13T19:48:12Z gabbiel: thanks phoe
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2017-09-13T19:57:34Z gabbiel: why can't everyone just speak english
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2017-09-13T20:36:56Z Shinmera: Why can't everyone just speak [the particular language I prefer]
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2017-09-13T21:16:25Z jmercouris: hello everyone, I'm having a strange error using clos: https://pastebin.com/EVfTeSbP
2017-09-13T21:16:48Z jmercouris: it says unknown initialization option :X, but I have defeined :initarg X in my class
2017-09-13T21:17:29Z jmercouris: just figured it out, forgot the colon
2017-09-13T21:17:36Z jmercouris: sorry for wasting everybody's time!
2017-09-13T21:17:51Z phoe_: no, you ha-- oh
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2017-09-13T21:17:52Z green_: question:  I am creating a stand-alone lisp app with buildapp (which dumps an sbcl image).  The application needs the contents of a file at runtime.  I would like to load that file into a variable at compile time so it will be built into the image, and I don't have to read it at runtime.  I've tried variations of eval-when, but just get mystery errors..  any pointers on how to accomplish this?
2017-09-13T21:17:55Z phoe_: okay~
2017-09-13T21:18:11Z phoe_: green_: mystery errors?
2017-09-13T21:18:13Z mfiano: use #.
2017-09-13T21:18:18Z jmercouris: phoe_: sorry!
2017-09-13T21:18:22Z phoe_: jmercouris: no problem
2017-09-13T21:18:55Z Bike: (defvar *file*) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf *file* (read-in-contents))) sorta thing
2017-09-13T21:19:21Z Bike: or just #., you know, whatevs
2017-09-13T21:20:41Z green_: oh, wow, just got it working.  Thanks..  I guess I just needed a captain obvious.
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2017-09-13T21:31:46Z Shinmera: green_: shouldn't just regular defvar work too? I mean, the sources of your application are LOADed before the image is dumped.
2017-09-13T21:32:01Z Shinmera: No need for compile-time shenanigans.
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2017-09-13T21:41:41Z green_: Shinmera, oh, you mean (defvar *FILECONTENTS* (read-file-contents)) ?  I ... guess........... hmm.. yes?
2017-09-13T21:41:49Z green_: I don't know
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2017-09-13T21:42:19Z green_: is the value of defvar eval'd at load/compile time?
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2017-09-13T21:43:56Z Shinmera: Well, when else would the variable receive its value except at its latest at load time
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2017-09-13T21:51:11Z green_: Shinmera, thanks -- that works!  I was over-thinking this.
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2017-09-14T00:50:08Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-09-14T01:48:00Z drmeister: I got beach's fast generic function approach working in Clasp.
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2017-09-14T02:27:52Z jmercouris: what's the reccomended way of working with trees in common lisp? do you guys roll your own structure every time?
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2017-09-14T02:28:24Z Bicyclidine: depends on what kind of tree. if it's real simple just using conses is okay.
2017-09-14T02:29:16Z jmercouris: it's a simple tree, but I want to be able to traverse in both directions, which is why I didn't really want to do it that way
2017-09-14T02:30:23Z Bicyclidine: "both ways" as in up and down? yeah, that's something i'd use something else for.
2017-09-14T02:31:09Z jmercouris: yeah, I mean accessing children nodes, and parent
2017-09-14T02:31:26Z jmercouris: unfortunately I'm also looking for a non-binary tree implementation, most of them are binary only
2017-09-14T02:31:37Z jmercouris: that is, any child can have more than two children
2017-09-14T02:32:23Z aeth: sounds like there are 10 different ways to do that, all with disadvantages
2017-09-14T02:32:40Z aeth: at least, given your description
2017-09-14T02:32:57Z jmercouris: aeth: what do you mean?
2017-09-14T02:33:47Z jmercouris: I just want every node to have a children function to return all direct children, and a parent function to return the parent
2017-09-14T02:33:55Z aeth: There are many ways to do your own tree there.
2017-09-14T02:34:08Z aeth: Technically, you could even still use conses, afaik.
2017-09-14T02:34:13Z jmercouris: aeth: yeah, I was thinking about using objects, an adjacency matrix would be too sparse
2017-09-14T02:34:34Z jmercouris: or maybe a struct...
2017-09-14T02:35:05Z jmercouris: luckily I don't have to worry about node deletion or balancing
2017-09-14T02:35:15Z jmercouris: or quick traversal, only insertion has to be quick
2017-09-14T02:35:21Z aeth: ways I can think of just now: lists (put a cons in the cdr), maybe a size 3 vector, a CLOS object, a struct object, even a lambda (more of a Scheme thing, though)
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2017-09-14T02:35:47Z jmercouris: aeth: can you explain the cons cdr idea?
2017-09-14T02:36:04Z aeth: (cons data (cons parent child))
2017-09-14T02:36:25Z jmercouris: aeth: but how would that work with multiple children?
2017-09-14T02:36:45Z aeth: (cons data (cons parent child-sequence))
2017-09-14T02:36:50Z jmercouris: unless the children were part of a linked list
2017-09-14T02:36:52Z jmercouris: yeah, i was about to say
2017-09-14T02:36:53Z aeth: Probably too complicate to be clean
2017-09-14T02:36:59Z aeth: s/complicate/complicated
2017-09-14T02:37:01Z jmercouris: I think so, I think the struct method will be simplest
2017-09-14T02:37:10Z jmercouris: aeth: thank you for your feedback!
2017-09-14T02:37:30Z aeth: I tend to use structs. There is a downside, though. Some implementations don't like you recompiling structs.
2017-09-14T02:37:40Z aeth: So you give up some of the advantages of the Lisp environment.
2017-09-14T02:37:52Z jmercouris: in this case it is okay :D
2017-09-14T02:38:00Z jmercouris: it's not a long running program
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2017-09-14T03:06:22Z jmercouris: is there a way to set the default value of a struct field?
2017-09-14T03:06:35Z jmercouris: I'm looking at the hyperspec here, and I don't get it
2017-09-14T03:11:35Z aeth: iirc, you just put it there, no keyword argument
2017-09-14T03:12:00Z aeth: like in the ship example in the hyperspec
2017-09-14T03:12:26Z jmercouris: aha, I see it now, thank you!
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2017-09-14T03:15:42Z neachdainn: Hey all. New to Lisp. I'm trying to `(defun deriv1 (mono) ...)`
2017-09-14T03:16:04Z neachdainn: How do I check that mono is of the form `(c x i)` where `c` and `i` are numbers?
2017-09-14T03:17:59Z aeth: check-type
2017-09-14T03:18:00Z jmercouris: neachdainn: is that a backtick or a regular quote?
2017-09-14T03:18:37Z neachdainn: jmercouris: That's me distinguishing between my text and code. Habit from other languages... Probably not the best in a Lisp context
2017-09-14T03:19:10Z neachdainn: aeth: Looking that up. Thanks
2017-09-14T03:19:15Z aeth: Unfortunately you won't (afaik) be able to e.g. define an array type with deftype unless you have something more specific than number (which depends on the implementation).
2017-09-14T03:19:30Z aeth: So you'll have to check each element of the sequence.
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2017-09-14T03:21:17Z aeth: That is, (upgraded-array-element-type 'number) will probably be T but (upgraded-array-element-type 'single-float) will probably be single-float. So you can work with arrays, but only if the elements are all of the same, implementation-supported type. (Almost all implementations will support many integer sizes and single-float and double-float)
2017-09-14T03:21:52Z neachdainn: I think I understand
2017-09-14T03:22:14Z neachdainn: Is the best way to get the first three elements to use first and rest?
2017-09-14T03:23:10Z neachdainn: I.e., (let (c (first mono) (x (rest (first mono)) (i (rest (rest (first mono)))))
2017-09-14T03:25:24Z aeth: Personally, I would use an array and use (elt foo 0) (elt foo 1) and (elt foo 2) but it probably doesn't matter at that size.
2017-09-14T03:25:53Z aeth: I would probably also use elt on a tiny list
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2017-09-14T03:25:58Z aeth: It's generic over sequences
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2017-09-14T03:27:52Z neachdainn: O
2017-09-14T03:27:54Z neachdainn: O
2017-09-14T03:28:19Z neachdainn: Sorry. I'm getting "The LET binding spec (ELT MONO 0) is malformed"
2017-09-14T03:28:49Z aeth: I think you're missing an outer () around the variable list in let
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2017-09-14T03:29:14Z aeth: e.g. (let ((x 42) (y 37)) (+ x y))
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2017-09-14T03:29:29Z neachdainn: Ah. It looks like I might be
2017-09-14T03:29:47Z neachdainn: Yeah. It was
2017-09-14T03:34:20Z neachdainn: Does the let binding only apply within the (let ...) parens?
2017-09-14T03:35:09Z aeth: iirc, unless it's a variable that should, by convention, use earmuffs like *foo*
2017-09-14T03:35:55Z stylewarning: If I have foreign pointers wrapped in a struct, is there a way I can recreate these objects if I save an image?
2017-09-14T03:35:56Z aeth: If *foo* is special, I think (let ((*foo* 42)) (bar)) will change the *foo* within the function bar, if bar uses *foo*
2017-09-14T03:36:15Z aeth: But if you don't deal with those variables, then yes, it's just within the let
2017-09-14T03:36:27Z stylewarning: I'm almost looking for a make-load-form but for executable saving of foreign data (in SBCL)
2017-09-14T03:41:33Z neachdainn: This is giving me the "X must be a number" error... I'm not sure why? https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9032357
2017-09-14T03:42:24Z neachdainn: Oh. Wait. I think I know
2017-09-14T03:42:43Z neachdainn: Yeah. Typo. Hahah
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2017-09-14T03:57:04Z neachdainn: So I want to return the list ((* c i) x (1- i)), but I'm not sure how
2017-09-14T03:57:11Z neachdainn: That tries to call a function
2017-09-14T03:57:33Z neachdainn: Changing it to '((* c i) x (1- i)) returns the literal
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2017-09-14T04:18:44Z jmercouris: the following function: https://pastebin.com/2ZEwuLu1 throws a stack overflow
2017-09-14T04:19:05Z jmercouris: the overflow looks like this: https://pastebin.com/6Jn7U7CB
2017-09-14T04:19:07Z jmercouris: any ideas?
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2017-09-14T04:21:02Z alandipert: jmercouris does it still stack overflow if you remove the print calls from the top?
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2017-09-14T04:22:13Z jmercouris: alandipert: no, amazingly not
2017-09-14T04:22:16Z jmercouris: why is that?
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2017-09-14T04:22:30Z alandipert: print probably calls itself when it's printing nested structures
2017-09-14T04:22:41Z alandipert: and so deeply nested structures can blow stack
2017-09-14T04:22:57Z jmercouris: well, the structure wasn't deeply nested, but it was a circular reference
2017-09-14T04:23:03Z jmercouris: the node has a reference to children and parent
2017-09-14T04:23:06Z alandipert: oh, i can see how that would do it also
2017-09-14T04:23:09Z jmercouris: so it would print in an infinite loop
2017-09-14T04:23:17Z jmercouris: interesting, I would have never thought of that
2017-09-14T04:23:19Z jmercouris: thank you for your insight!
2017-09-14T04:23:45Z alandipert: no problem. i think i just successfully answered my first lisp question here, so thank you for the opportunity :-)
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2017-09-14T04:53:31Z nancy: anybody can explain for me about "declare (ignore x)"? how it work?
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2017-09-14T05:08:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-14T05:09:15Z beach: nancy: It tells the compiler not to issue a warning when there is a variable that is defined but never used.
2017-09-14T05:09:59Z nancy: oh! i get it, thanks
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2017-09-14T05:10:24Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-09-14T05:29:32Z loke: Hello Lisp
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2017-09-14T05:29:32Z beach: Hello loke.
2017-09-14T05:29:32Z holycow: ahoihoi
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2017-09-14T05:29:32Z iqubic: Hello Loke.
2017-09-14T05:29:49Z iqubic: I really hate the people of #emacs.
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2017-09-14T05:34:16Z faultline: iqubic, why is that?
2017-09-14T05:35:28Z iqubic: Yesterday my ban was lifted. Today I appear to be banned from #emacs again. So, either freenode is screwing me over, or someone wants to keep me out of #emacs.
2017-09-14T05:35:42Z iqubic: I'm not sure which it is. Both options scare me.
2017-09-14T05:36:26Z faultline: iqubic, or a bot is just confused. Talk to a mod.
2017-09-14T05:36:53Z iqubic: Yeah, I have messaged a mod that I trust.
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2017-09-14T05:50:30Z scymtym: drmeister: i will have time to talk in about two hours
2017-09-14T05:53:11Z beach: scymtym: Er, drmeister will be asleep then.  Or, at least we hope so.
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2017-09-14T07:03:09Z flip214: iqubic: how about trying #neovim instead?  ;)
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2017-09-14T07:14:00Z iqubic: flip214: Why? I need help with emacs, and not neovim.
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2017-09-14T09:33:08Z whoman: ok =)
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2017-09-14T12:51:17Z knobo: Do you guys use slime-scratch buffer. How/why do you use it and not just the repl?
2017-09-14T12:51:48Z knobo: (almost like a reddit question)
2017-09-14T12:52:27Z knobo: I almost never use it. I think I have used it two times this year.
2017-09-14T12:53:07Z jackdaniel: oh, there is slime-scratch? cool
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2017-09-14T12:53:18Z jackdaniel: I always changed to *scratch* and M-x lisp-mode
2017-09-14T12:53:33Z jackdaniel: well, I *will* use :)
2017-09-14T12:53:42Z jackdaniel: s/lisp-mode/slime-mode/
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2017-09-14T12:57:58Z knobo: I end up with a lot of  ~/tmp/lisp/some-tmp-name.lisp files instead.
2017-09-14T12:58:40Z knobo: Maybe I'll use it more, now that I have bound slime-selector to "C-c s", so slime-selector is just a key combo away.
2017-09-14T12:58:55Z knobo: C-c s s
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2017-09-14T13:16:49Z rclisp: i only use vim, it's simple, fast and very powerful!
2017-09-14T13:17:27Z Shinmera: Good for you
2017-09-14T13:17:30Z shrdlu68: I use punching cards.
2017-09-14T13:19:03Z antoszka: I write bytes manually with a magnetic needle on 8 inch disks.
2017-09-14T13:20:45Z smokeink: i also mostly use vim and lisp running in a console, i write the code into a scratch file called s.lisp and i load it easily with a read macro i defined myself for this purpose: }s
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2017-09-14T13:21:15Z Shinmera: Hope you never have to use readtables that already use }
2017-09-14T13:23:08Z flip214: smokeink: you could look at SLIMV, and/or neovim with the Terminal plugin.
2017-09-14T13:23:34Z flip214: smokeink: using swank makes development _much_ easier - stackframes, inspecting, threads, ...
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2017-09-14T13:24:01Z antoszka: rclisp: I'd recommend that you try out spacemacs, it's a nice configuration distribution for emacs with very usable vim emulation and some great features of its own. Otherwise, if that scares the shit out of you try vlime for some (many?) features of SLIME on Emacs.
2017-09-14T13:24:13Z antoszka: smokeink: ^ guess that applies to you, too.
2017-09-14T13:24:14Z smokeink: yes when I need to do inspections and debugging and the console doesn't show enough info, i switch to slime
2017-09-14T13:26:31Z antoszka: Still, try spacemacs and/or vlime, if you're a very vim person.
2017-09-14T13:26:41Z smokeink: ok
2017-09-14T13:26:52Z antoszka: https://asciinema.org/a/129756 <- vlime demo video
2017-09-14T13:26:58Z antoszka: rclisp: ^
2017-09-14T13:27:20Z rclisp: :))
2017-09-14T13:28:22Z smokeink: looks really nice
2017-09-14T13:28:52Z rclisp: cool, i like this
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2017-09-14T13:52:51Z knobo: Is there any lisp community in sri lanka?
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2017-09-14T14:06:28Z beach: knobo: If there is, my guess is that it would be fairly small.
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2017-09-14T14:06:38Z shrdlu68: knobo: Dunno, but probably not.
2017-09-14T14:07:08Z shrdlu68: These communities seem to be limited to Europe and North America.
2017-09-14T14:07:32Z Shinmera: Japan has a large Lisp community too.
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2017-09-14T14:16:41Z shrdlu68: knobo: Clojure is fairly popular, though. Might have a community for that.
2017-09-14T14:16:43Z knobo: That's what I thought.
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2017-09-14T14:25:09Z pjb: knobo: you only need to find another lispe rin Sri Lanka.
2017-09-14T14:25:33Z pjb: knobo: in the worst case, marry and make a baby, and in 10 years, you can have a newbie lisper, in 20 a seasonned lisper!
2017-09-14T14:25:58Z shrdlu68: Two is not a crowd.
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2017-09-14T14:26:10Z pjb: Make twins!
2017-09-14T14:26:21Z flip214: pjb: that doesn't scale.
2017-09-14T14:26:36Z shrdlu68: All that for a lisper? Sheesh.
2017-09-14T14:26:40Z pjb: It scales exponentially. In n generation, you getn b^n lispers!
2017-09-14T14:26:56Z flip214: pjb: much too much overhead.
2017-09-14T14:27:22Z knobo: Haha! :)
2017-09-14T14:27:23Z pjb: while the other do r repeatitions of the same old language?
2017-09-14T14:27:40Z pjb: Popularity is a demographic notion.
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2017-09-14T16:05:07Z jasom: pjb: I've started my oldest on Logo, is that close enough?
2017-09-14T16:05:23Z bjorkintosh: jasom, how old's your oldest?
2017-09-14T16:05:26Z jasom: bjorkintosh: 10
2017-09-14T16:05:48Z bjorkintosh: can he/she type or are they figuring it out as they go along?
2017-09-14T16:06:12Z jasom: bjorkintosh: she's learning touch-typing concurrently (10WPM right now)
2017-09-14T16:06:19Z jasom: well touch-typing started sooner
2017-09-14T16:06:21Z bjorkintosh: not bad. logo's fun.
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2017-09-14T16:07:01Z jasom: and it's an old dialect of lisp
2017-09-14T16:07:12Z bjorkintosh: surely.
2017-09-14T16:07:21Z JuanDaugherty: Logo the turtle thing?
2017-09-14T16:07:22Z bjorkintosh: you can easily show her how it translates to lisp.
2017-09-14T16:07:33Z bjorkintosh: JuanDaugherty, yes. the seymour papert language.
2017-09-14T16:07:54Z jasom: yup.  She asked me about programming and I was about to say that my first language was gwbasic, but then I realized we had done logo in school, just nobody told us it was programming.
2017-09-14T16:08:01Z JuanDaugherty: 10's not too old for that
2017-09-14T16:08:09Z JuanDaugherty: *too young
2017-09-14T16:08:17Z JuanDaugherty: dunno about lisp
2017-09-14T16:08:29Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: she had some developmental delays so I had to wait until she could read without struggling
2017-09-14T16:08:38Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2017-09-14T16:08:45Z bjorkintosh: lisp is pretty straightforward for kids.
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2017-09-14T16:09:24Z JuanDaugherty: compared to something like haskell, yeah
2017-09-14T16:09:24Z mxh-: just realised my first would be TI-BASIC! wonder how common that is...
2017-09-14T16:09:46Z bjorkintosh: mine was qbasic followed closely by pascal.
2017-09-14T16:09:46Z Shinmera 's first was GML. Eugh.
2017-09-14T16:09:55Z bjorkintosh: what's GML?
2017-09-14T16:10:05Z jasom: Game Maker
2017-09-14T16:10:08Z Shinmera: A script thingy for the Game Maker tool
2017-09-14T16:10:32Z bjorkintosh: ah.
2017-09-14T16:10:45Z JuanDaugherty: fortran or BAL 360
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2017-09-14T16:11:12Z Shinmera: Actually I just remembered I did some Fortran when I was like 6.
2017-09-14T16:11:22Z JuanDaugherty: the first i remember really getting into was BAL 360 (ibm assembler)
2017-09-14T16:12:21Z jasom: Qbasic was the first thing I *really* got into, and then C shortly after.  I wrote a bubble sort in C and quickbasic, compiled both.  The quickbasic ran 8minutes interpreted, 1 minute compiled.  C ran in under a second.
2017-09-14T16:12:49Z Shinmera: Wew
2017-09-14T16:13:22Z jasom: you can still buy my first C compiler too: http://www.mixsoftware.com/product/powerc.htm  It requires DOS 2.0 or later!
2017-09-14T16:13:50Z Shinmera: Only 20$. What a steal
2017-09-14T16:14:28Z jasom: Yeah It was less cheaper with the library source than to get MSC or TC without source
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2017-09-14T16:16:42Z jasom: That and Thomas Plum's "Learning to Program in C" (A great text that is unfortunately dated due to predating ANSI) is what got me started
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2017-09-14T18:04:32Z whoman: genuis lispers! i require a little headful discussion of an idea thats not too crazy, if anyone happens to know about laziness, unification, declarative pattern matching stuff (ala prolog, haskell)
2017-09-14T18:04:51Z White_Flame: yes?
2017-09-14T18:05:09Z dlowe: whoman: maybe ##lisp would be a better place
2017-09-14T18:05:16Z White_Flame: and yes
2017-09-14T18:05:22Z dlowe: because this doesn't sound like something involving Common Lisp
2017-09-14T18:05:24Z White_Flame: (unless it's in CL)
2017-09-14T18:05:29Z whoman: okay, sure.
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2017-09-14T18:11:48Z whoman: "First of all there is no portable way (yet) to list all the slots of a given structure. " for CLOS - its true?
2017-09-14T18:14:09Z Bike: for a structure, yes, it's not guaranteed class-slots works on structure classes
2017-09-14T18:14:13Z Bike: it probably does though
2017-09-14T18:15:39Z whoman: ahh, but its ok for classes? not all impls CLOSify their structs ?
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2017-09-14T18:18:07Z Bike: any implementation with MOP has a class-slots that works for standard-class.
2017-09-14T18:18:36Z whoman: ok =)
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2017-09-14T18:38:53Z phoe_: I have the Slime debugger open. How can I jump to the definition of a method called in a frame?
2017-09-14T18:39:35Z phoe_: v
2017-09-14T18:39:36Z phoe_: Found it.
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2017-09-14T18:55:06Z phoe_: How can I tell CFFI's foreign-array-to-lisp to return not SIMPLE-VECTOR, but SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)?
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2017-09-14T18:55:22Z phoe_: Which type should I use?
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2017-09-14T18:56:14Z phoe_: Found it.
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2017-09-14T18:57:02Z flip214: phoe_: please, tell us! at least I can grep through my IRC logs later on.
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2017-09-14T18:58:15Z phoe_: `(:array :int8 ,length)
2017-09-14T18:58:18Z phoe_: ...but it doesn't work!
2017-09-14T18:58:22Z phoe_: Argh.
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2017-09-14T19:00:36Z phoe_: I have a method that might not be very effectively, namely COERCE'ing the resulting vector into the proper type.
2017-09-14T19:00:46Z phoe_: But maybe I can tell CFFI to produce a vector of proper type.
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2017-09-14T19:43:34Z phoe_: How can I have multiple slime inspector windows?
2017-09-14T19:44:14Z shrdlu68: From this channel's logs, there ought to be a slime (F)AQ.
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2017-09-14T19:45:29Z flip214: shrdlu68: why? are there ever questions answered?
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2017-09-14T19:50:40Z edgar-rft: phoe_: drink lots of alkohol until you see two
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2017-09-14T20:19:58Z mfiano: phoe_: You would use Sly for that
2017-09-14T20:24:42Z pjb: whoman: have a look at: http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Improved-DEFSTRUCT-macro--run-time-access-to-the-fields
2017-09-14T20:26:12Z pjb: whoman: if you don't have access to the source then you can write such macros just to declare the slots, and to generate your own forward-accessors.
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2017-09-14T20:40:44Z phoe_: mfiano: thanks.
2017-09-14T20:40:47Z phoe_: edgar-rft: ...thanks, too.
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2017-09-14T22:41:28Z dim: (push (gethash key table) value) ; is expected to work right?
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2017-09-14T22:42:53Z mfiano: assuming value is a place, i don't see why not
2017-09-14T22:43:17Z dim: it's a struct instance, yeah
2017-09-14T22:43:26Z mfiano: is that a place?
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2017-09-14T22:44:33Z dim: well when there's nothing at key in table it seems nothing happens
2017-09-14T22:44:38Z dim: oh wait.
2017-09-14T22:45:04Z dim: (push value (gethash key table)) ; that's more like my intention here
2017-09-14T22:45:17Z mfiano: that's completely different :)
2017-09-14T22:45:42Z dim: ok now I have bugs I can understand, thanks ;-)
2017-09-14T22:45:43Z mfiano: gethash is setf-able, so that should not be a problem. what is the issue exactly?
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2017-09-14T22:45:56Z mfiano: ok
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2017-09-14T22:48:09Z dim: gethash item hash, push item place, but I can't seem to remember
2017-09-14T22:49:38Z mfiano: Yeah CL is strange in that order is context-dependent. Many different functions unituitively have reverse order. It's just something you grow used to. eldoc helps though
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2017-09-14T22:50:39Z dim: it does, but I'm not grown enough in CL it seems
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2017-09-14T22:50:50Z dim: or maybe coding at night is not a good habit
2017-09-14T22:51:16Z White_Flame: the spectre of legacy looms over our parameter ordering
2017-09-14T22:51:46Z aeth: generally it should go (foo item index) unless it's just there for backwards compatibility
2017-09-14T22:52:03Z aeth: and the reason why the order flipped (obviously nth is much older than most of these) is because of aref being multidimensional
2017-09-14T22:52:08Z aeth: i.e. (aref foo 1 2) is legal
2017-09-14T22:52:17Z aeth: and (aref foo) is legal, too
2017-09-14T22:52:27Z aeth: It doesn't help what's already written but it should help with new API design
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2017-09-15T00:07:12Z drmeister: Neat - have people seen this:   https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15249289
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2017-09-15T00:07:57Z drmeister: Energy efficiency of different languages.   Lisp fares very well - Python is a  disaster.
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2017-09-15T00:09:03Z Bike: they're all worthless compared to glorious people's subthreshold revolution
2017-09-15T00:09:07Z jmercouris: is there a way to automatically install dependencies in a ASDF system?
2017-09-15T00:09:43Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, it's called quicklisp.
2017-09-15T00:09:57Z jmercouris: pjb: I have quicklisp installed
2017-09-15T00:10:21Z pjb: Then ask a better question!
2017-09-15T00:10:23Z jmercouris: pjb: and I have this run file here: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/run.lisp
2017-09-15T00:10:41Z jmercouris: when I try to load a system I've defined here: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/next.asd
2017-09-15T00:10:51Z jmercouris: it simply complains that whatever package is not installed isn't, doesn't attempt to install
2017-09-15T00:10:52Z pjb: (push "./" asdf:*central-registry*) (ql:quickload "next")
2017-09-15T00:11:10Z jmercouris: pjb: aha, let me give that a try
2017-09-15T00:12:28Z pjb: You may also rather symlink your next source directory to ~/quicklisp/local-projects/next  so you don't have to touch *central-registry*, and can directly (ql:quickload :next) instead of (laod "run.lisp")
2017-09-15T00:14:02Z jmercouris: pjb: that worked, but now I have a different problem
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2017-09-15T00:14:19Z jmercouris: I also have a compilation script that would load the dependencies and compile
2017-09-15T00:14:31Z jmercouris: that file is here: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/make.lisp
2017-09-15T00:14:34Z jmercouris: ls
2017-09-15T00:14:44Z jmercouris: let me try to see what error it spits out
2017-09-15T00:15:02Z pjb: Yes. To generate the executable, you still keep a lisp script.
2017-09-15T00:15:15Z pjb: I usually name it generate.lisp or generate-application.lisp and call it from a Makefile.
2017-09-15T00:15:33Z jmercouris: pjb: right, that's my Make.lisp file, it calls all the steps
2017-09-15T00:15:37Z pjb: See for example: https://framagit.org/patchwork/patchwork
2017-09-15T00:15:46Z jmercouris: the issue I have is if you see on line 4, I was normally loading all of the things manually
2017-09-15T00:15:57Z jmercouris: like this: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/dependencies.lisp
2017-09-15T00:16:04Z jmercouris: and it was working for compiling, but now no longer
2017-09-15T00:16:06Z pjb: I also still have a loader.lisp (your run.lisp), to load the thing while developing.
2017-09-15T00:16:58Z pjb: Those dependencies can always be dealt automatically by quicklisp.  But you need some other setup, and notably when generating the executable, you want to control what is loaded in your lisp image…
2017-09-15T00:17:11Z jmercouris: so basically I should have such a file anyway?
2017-09-15T00:17:17Z pjb: (ie. it can be run by other developers with different rc files).
2017-09-15T00:17:18Z jmercouris: I just didn't want to have my dependencies in two separate place
2017-09-15T00:17:20Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-15T00:17:31Z pjb: The dependencies, you keep them only in the asd file.
2017-09-15T00:17:31Z jmercouris: okay, I can sleep a little bit better now then :D
2017-09-15T00:17:39Z aeth: drmeister: seems to be in line with general benchmark results, where there are very fast languages, "normal" languages, and very slow languages.
2017-09-15T00:17:55Z pjb: But the loading of your system and other stuff, you have to do in a script to build the application.
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2017-09-15T00:18:35Z jmercouris: pjb: right, so given my setup, what would suggest I change?
2017-09-15T00:18:46Z jmercouris: you think instead of a make.lisp I should just have a Makefile?
2017-09-15T00:19:01Z pjb: jmercouris: notably, in generate-application, I quickload the libraries needed by the builder.lisp script which is common between generate-application.lisp and loader.lisp
2017-09-15T00:19:44Z jmercouris: pjb: do you have an example repository I can look at?
2017-09-15T00:19:46Z pjb: Not instead. The makefile  only serves to record how the lisp implementation should be run on the make.lisp script to build correctly the program.
2017-09-15T00:19:54Z pjb: See for example: https://framagit.org/patchwork/patchwork
2017-09-15T00:21:10Z pjb: Another example: https://framagit.org/nasium-lse/nasium-lse/tree/master/src  in this one, the makefile  lets you choose between several versions of binaries (server, cli).
2017-09-15T00:21:21Z aeth: drmeister: I'm surprised by the memory results, though
2017-09-15T00:21:39Z jmercouris: pjb: Interesting, thanks for the links, I'll have to look through them
2017-09-15T00:23:11Z pjb: jmercouris: the requirements: 1- you want all the dependencies in asd files. 2- you want to avoid duplication between loading an image for an executable and loading to develop/debug. 3- you want a reproducible build (in different environments) to generate the executable.
2017-09-15T00:23:47Z pjb: And depending on the complexity of the project, you may have additionnal things, such as downloading, installing and compiling dependencies that are not in quicklisp! :-)
2017-09-15T00:24:05Z pjb: Check: https://framagit.org/patchwork/scripts
2017-09-15T00:24:07Z jmercouris: yes more or less that is what I would like
2017-09-15T00:25:27Z pjb: So for the later, I run the scripts manually, but in Patchwork I use logical pathnames to point to the directories where those dependencies are stored.
2017-09-15T00:25:59Z pjb: in builder.lisp, I pushnew those logical pathnames to asdf:*central-registry*.
2017-09-15T00:26:30Z pjb: It is conceivable to combine both scripts, to be able to download automatically non-quicklisp dependencies when needed.
2017-09-15T00:26:51Z jmercouris: pjb: I think that may be a little bit over-kill :P
2017-09-15T00:26:56Z jmercouris: but would be nice
2017-09-15T00:27:19Z jmercouris: maybe I can do that...
2017-09-15T00:27:41Z pjb: Yes, it depends on the degree of ease you want to provide for co-workers, or other developers getting your sources and compiling them.
2017-09-15T00:28:01Z pjb: You may also use the Makefile to download those dependencies.
2017-09-15T00:28:17Z pjb: But quickly, it's easier to write it in lisp.
2017-09-15T00:28:28Z jmercouris: I think a little bit too much room to break if I pull in other sources as well, I think i'll just leave it how it is, maybe only automating download of quicklisp dependencies
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2017-09-15T00:54:36Z jasom: Xach: am I misinterpreting systems.txt or does QL think that cl-unicode/build depends on the system cl-unicode?  That seems wrong to me.
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2017-09-15T01:17:52Z inar: hello everyone!
2017-09-15T01:18:14Z Bike: hello, individual.
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2017-09-15T01:19:48Z inar: :D
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2017-09-15T01:46:27Z drmeister: If a class is redefined - at what point do classes that inherit it get redefined?
2017-09-15T01:46:56Z pjb: When needed.
2017-09-15T01:47:03Z pjb: It's done lazily.
2017-09-15T01:47:32Z pjb: I mean, it can be done lazily.
2017-09-15T01:47:50Z pjb: It's up to the implementation.
2017-09-15T01:47:58Z drmeister: scymtym: Are you online?
2017-09-15T01:48:02Z drmeister: pjb: Thank you.
2017-09-15T01:48:28Z drmeister: I'm trying to debug what I think is the last bug in my implementation of beach's fast-generic function approach.
2017-09-15T01:48:46Z drmeister: I'm dealing with what happens when a class is redefined.
2017-09-15T01:49:18Z drmeister: Every generic function maintains a call-history of all calls that were previously made to it and their effective method functions.
2017-09-15T01:49:35Z pjb: For example, you could do it lazily, when a generic function is called with an instance of a subclass, that subclass will have be passed to a call to update-instance-for-redefined-class, and then the subclass will have to be updated itself (so I assume by metaobject protocol, be passed to such a call too).
2017-09-15T01:49:44Z drmeister: The call-history (as I understand and implemented it) is an alist of (selectors . effective-method-function)
2017-09-15T01:50:14Z pjb: Yes, it's a cache, so it may have to be invalidated upon class redefinition, I think.
2017-09-15T01:50:32Z drmeister: When a class is redefined - I need a list of all generic functions that could dispatch on that class (and maybe it's subclasses - but I'm not sure that is necessary because they may be handled when they get updated).
2017-09-15T01:50:58Z drmeister: Yes, it does need to be invalidated upon class redefinition.
2017-09-15T01:51:22Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out how to get the minimal list of generic-functions that may need to be invalidated when a class is updated.
2017-09-15T01:51:27Z pjb: Now since redefining classes is not done often at run-time, you could have a global flag, and let the generic functions check it?
2017-09-15T01:51:57Z pjb: There are several solutions, you have to study which one is more efficient globally.
2017-09-15T01:52:27Z pjb: Also, it may depend on what is done inside the methods, if you want to be precise.
2017-09-15T01:52:42Z drmeister: What I did was add a call from ensure-class-using-class that invalidates all generic-functions that could be effected/invalidated by that class redefinition.
2017-09-15T01:53:20Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure I have all of that covered - nothing would work if I didn't.
2017-09-15T01:53:41Z drmeister: I can compile cclasp using Cleavir (lots of generic functions) using the new dispatch method.
2017-09-15T01:53:55Z pjb: Also, redefining a class may change the applicable methods, so yes, you should probably update all the generic functions concerned.
2017-09-15T01:54:05Z pjb: (flag them at least)
2017-09-15T01:54:09Z drmeister: Except for one error that is triggered by the redefinition of a class when I'm compile-file'ing all of the code.
2017-09-15T01:54:28Z drmeister: Right - so how do I figure out what generic functions are concerned?
2017-09-15T01:55:31Z drmeister: I could try them all - but I'm sure I could do better.
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2017-09-15T01:57:27Z pjb: "Easy": for all symbols, find the fdefinition of the symbol and of (setf ,the-symbol), check if they're generic functions, then get the methods of the generic function, and for each method, find the method specializer, and search for the class or an instance of the class or a subclass in them.
2017-09-15T01:58:07Z pjb: Don't forget the (setf ,gf).
2017-09-15T01:58:39Z pjb: The question is whether it is more efficient to maintain a list of methods dispatching on a class, or to scan them when needed?
2017-09-15T01:59:25Z drmeister: I think this is a scan them as needed situation - like you said - redefining classes is uncommon.
2017-09-15T01:59:27Z pjb: Perhaps scanning + caching, assuming that a redefinition doesn't occur alone.
2017-09-15T01:59:37Z drmeister: It's just happening here because of how Clasp builds itself.
2017-09-15T01:59:55Z pjb: Some application may do redefine a small set of classes multiple times.
2017-09-15T02:00:26Z pjb: So it may be worth caching that for a few classes.
2017-09-15T02:00:33Z pjb: (say 1 to 8).
2017-09-15T02:00:54Z pjb: Of course, defgeneric/defmethod would flush that cache.
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2017-09-15T02:11:20Z jmercouris: hey everyone, I'm getting a strange error when I run my program: https://pastebin.com/AYRtnk5D
2017-09-15T02:11:27Z jmercouris: any idea what that means?
2017-09-15T02:11:46Z pjb: check the backtrace.
2017-09-15T02:11:54Z pjb: Somebody's calling ASDF/SYSTEM::SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME but it's not defined.
2017-09-15T02:12:22Z pjb: It may be a problem of incompatible asdf version. Or not having loaded asdf early enough?
2017-09-15T02:12:31Z jmercouris: right, but that's the thing, I'm never calling that function
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2017-09-15T02:12:40Z jmercouris: can it be possible that one of my dependencies is calling it?
2017-09-15T02:13:04Z pjb: indeed.
2017-09-15T02:13:17Z pjb: Hence the use of the backtrace.
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2017-09-15T02:13:34Z jmercouris: what is the backtrace?
2017-09-15T02:13:36Z jmercouris: what do you mean?
2017-09-15T02:14:37Z jmercouris: aha, I found it now, it's in one of my dependencies, how can I fix it?
2017-09-15T02:14:42Z pjb: the list of stacked function calls.
2017-09-15T02:14:53Z jmercouris: I thought that was called a stacktrace
2017-09-15T02:14:58Z pjb: same thing.
2017-09-15T02:15:06Z edgar-rft: the debugger should spit out a list of the functions that were called before the error happened or at least have an option to produce such a list
2017-09-15T02:15:24Z jmercouris: unfortunately there were no functions called beforehand
2017-09-15T02:15:30Z jmercouris: it seems to be at the base level of the file
2017-09-15T02:15:33Z jmercouris: I'm looking at it here
2017-09-15T02:15:44Z jmercouris: https://github.com/fukamachi/quri/blob/master/src/etld.lisp
2017-09-15T02:17:38Z edgar-rft: (defvar *default-etld-names* (asdf:system-relative-pathname :quri #P"data/effective_tld_names.dat")) probably calls that fuction internally somewhere
2017-09-15T02:19:02Z edgar-rft: have you tried if the same error happens if you evaluate (asdf:system-relative-pathname :quri #P"data/effective_tld_names.dat")
2017-09-15T02:19:03Z jmercouris: edgar-rft: right yeah
2017-09-15T02:19:03Z pjb: jmercouris: possibly, the problem here is that defvar doesn't evaluate the initial-value at compilation-time, but at (:load-toplevel :execute) time.
2017-09-15T02:19:28Z pjb: jmercouris: (similarly to the call to the load-etld-data line 40.
2017-09-15T02:19:29Z pjb: )
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2017-09-15T02:19:55Z jmercouris: I know the function will work normally on my machine, I'm able to load and use the library just fine
2017-09-15T02:19:58Z pjb: jmercouris: what implementation are you using?
2017-09-15T02:20:02Z jmercouris: I'm using ecl
2017-09-15T02:20:17Z pjb: I guessed it.  With ecl, the load-toplevel occurs when you run the binary.
2017-09-15T02:20:24Z jmercouris: but what is happening is that I'm basically making a monolithic lib using asdf, and I am embedding it into an executable, so asdf is not available in that executable, causing this issue
2017-09-15T02:20:29Z pjb: At that time, asdf is not loaded.
2017-09-15T02:21:05Z jmercouris: pjb: so, ideas?
2017-09-15T02:21:09Z pjb: And it's a tad difficult to include asdf in the binary, because it may be loaded/reloaded by the rc-file at run-time.
2017-09-15T02:21:52Z jmercouris: could I just redefine the symbol to do nothing?
2017-09-15T02:22:40Z pjb: jmercouris: the problem here is that you cannot make an asdf system depend on asdf.
2017-09-15T02:22:55Z jmercouris: pjb: Right yeah, I was actually thinking down that path at first
2017-09-15T02:23:03Z pjb: So when ecl uses asdf to compile and load systems, it doesn't compile and load asdf.
2017-09-15T02:23:26Z jmercouris: do you think I'd be better off just finding a different lib to use?
2017-09-15T02:23:33Z pjb: jmercouris: perhaps you should ask in #ecl, Daniel may have some ideas about it.
2017-09-15T02:23:42Z pjb: jmercouris: let's see.
2017-09-15T02:23:53Z jmercouris: let's see if he is even awake, it's super early in poland
2017-09-15T02:24:07Z jmercouris: actually it's 4am, so there's basically no chance
2017-09-15T02:24:30Z jmercouris: I guess this can wait until tomorrow
2017-09-15T02:24:38Z pjb: Ok, so it's for a default path to some data.  When you run your binary, that data file (in the quri source directory) may not exist anymore.
2017-09-15T02:24:46Z pjb: So its value is not useful at all.
2017-09-15T02:24:57Z jmercouris: right yeah, that's exactly the problem, I wish it would have been just embedded in the code
2017-09-15T02:25:07Z jmercouris: then again, it's 10k lines
2017-09-15T02:25:35Z pjb: You would have either to copy that data file as resources for your program, and then initialize *default-etld-names* at run-time to point to that copied resource file, or reset it to some default value such as "/dev/null".
2017-09-15T02:26:08Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm thinking it'll be easier to use a different lib
2017-09-15T02:26:10Z pjb: Unfortunately, not lisp library programmers have ever generated executable images,so they don't all realize the special situation there.
2017-09-15T02:26:17Z pjb: Basically, it's a "bug" in the library.
2017-09-15T02:26:55Z jmercouris: Yeah, more or less it seems a hacky way to load a dat file
2017-09-15T02:27:06Z pjb: Ah it's true that with ecl, we lose the opportunity to patch it at load time.
2017-09-15T02:27:18Z pjb: So you have to modify the sources of quri, and report a bug.
2017-09-15T02:27:51Z jmercouris: pjb: btw, I forgot what was the function for loading a system? load-system?
2017-09-15T02:28:07Z pjb: It looks like this resource file is needed in any case, so you would have to package it and install it with your binary.
2017-09-15T02:28:17Z jmercouris: pjb: yeah it has all of the top level domains
2017-09-15T02:28:17Z pjb: (defvar *default-etld-names* (asdf:system-relative-pathname :quri #P"data/effective_tld_names.dat"))
2017-09-15T02:28:36Z jmercouris: I don't need all of that logic though, I literally just need the ability to take "google.com" and turn it into http://www.google.com" if necessary
2017-09-15T02:29:04Z pjb: It may be much simplier to use a simplier library or your own function then.
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2017-09-15T02:29:17Z pjb: or perhaps https://www.google.com ? ;-)
2017-09-15T02:29:23Z jmercouris: yeah, it may be so
2017-09-15T02:29:30Z pjb: Just concatenating strings may do.
2017-09-15T02:29:36Z neachdainn: Hey all. What does the question mark mean in something like (on ?x ?y)?
2017-09-15T02:29:38Z jmercouris: yeah, definitely
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2017-09-15T02:29:57Z Bike: neachdainn: nothing in lisp, but i've seen it used to indicate a unification variable
2017-09-15T02:29:59Z pjb: neachdainn: it's a convention to denote variables that will be bound by the pattern matching function.
2017-09-15T02:30:27Z neachdainn: Thanks!
2017-09-15T02:30:40Z pjb: So (match '(on ?x ?y) '(on the table)) --> ((?x . the) (?y . table))
2017-09-15T02:31:07Z pjb: for example.
2017-09-15T02:31:27Z pjb: The other symbols such as on are matched literally.
2017-09-15T02:32:29Z neachdainn: How would one do a "default" case in the match?
2017-09-15T02:32:43Z Bike: what?
2017-09-15T02:32:54Z pjb: Using a pattern matching everything.
2017-09-15T02:33:18Z neachdainn: I'm super new at Lisp and I'm not sure what such a pattern would look like
2017-09-15T02:33:38Z pjb: It depends on the pattern matcher you're using.
2017-09-15T02:35:06Z Bike: i don't even know what you're asking
2017-09-15T02:35:29Z neachdainn: Bike: I don't either
2017-09-15T02:35:33Z pjb: For example, if you use com.informatimago.cesarum.pmatch, then it's merely ?x
2017-09-15T02:35:47Z neachdainn: pjb: Is (match ..) not a part of Common Lisp?
2017-09-15T02:36:06Z pjb: Nope.
2017-09-15T02:36:13Z pjb: It's an external library.
2017-09-15T02:36:22Z pjb: You have to identify it and read its documentation.
2017-09-15T02:36:48Z iqubic: It's a library made to emulate functional programming pattern matching?
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2017-09-15T02:37:41Z pjb: Well, this has been invented in Lisp, so I see no "emulation" there…
2017-09-15T02:38:24Z pjb: (well, perhaps there was already something like that in NSS, but let's say that LISP is the child of NSS and FLPL).
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2017-09-15T02:44:23Z neachdainn: So, don't tell me totally how to do this, but what's a hint for how I could find a pattern in a list of items
2017-09-15T02:44:54Z neachdainn: E.g., if pred=(a ?x ?y) and facts=((b 1 2) (a 3 4), I want to find ((x 3) (y 4))
2017-09-15T02:45:04Z neachdainn: I thought I had a lead with match, but it's not common lisp
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2017-09-15T02:46:21Z neachdainn: Find seemed potentially useful, but I'm not sure how to deal with patterns
2017-09-15T02:47:25Z pjb: neachdainn: match is written in Common Lisp, what else do you want?
2017-09-15T02:47:33Z pjb: copy and paste it's free software!
2017-09-15T02:47:55Z neachdainn: pjb: Because this is 100% homework. Hahah
2017-09-15T02:49:20Z neachdainn: My career is in robotics - almost all of my programming is C/C++. Lisp is something I'm trying to learn
2017-09-15T02:49:45Z pjb: Implement your own pattern matcher!
2017-09-15T02:50:08Z pjb: That'll make you learn programming in CL…
2017-09-15T02:50:10Z neachdainn: That's sort of what I'm trying to do here. I'm just not sure where to start
2017-09-15T02:50:47Z neachdainn: If "?" isn't a part of the language, I'm at a loss. =P
2017-09-15T02:51:00Z pjb: ? is a symbol just like a or z
2017-09-15T02:51:40Z pjb: But what you want is to define a function that can distinguish symbols whose name starts with "?" and the other symbols.
2017-09-15T02:51:41Z vtomole: http://norvig.com/paip/patmatch.lisp
2017-09-15T02:51:57Z pjb: vtomole: it's 100% homework so he cannot use libraries!
2017-09-15T02:52:06Z vtomole: ah
2017-09-15T02:52:18Z neachdainn: 100%. Homework. Hahah
2017-09-15T02:52:36Z vtomole: Well what book is your class using?
2017-09-15T02:53:20Z neachdainn: Common LISPcraft is the recommended one
2017-09-15T02:53:22Z pjb: so: (defun variable-symbol-p (symbol) (char= #\? (aref (symbol-name symbol) 0)))
2017-09-15T02:53:31Z pjb: neachdainn: see, it's not complicated…
2017-09-15T02:53:52Z pjb: (mapcar 'variable-symbol-p '(foo ?foo)) #| --> (nil t) |#
2017-09-15T02:55:43Z pjb: (defun simple-match (pattern list) (mapcan (lambda (pattern item) (cond ((variable-symbol-p pattern) (list (list pattern item))) ((eql pattern item) '()) (t (match-fail pattern item)))) pattern list)) (simple-match '(on ?a ?b) '(on the table)) #| --> ((?a the) (?b table)) |#
2017-09-15T02:56:07Z neachdainn: So, if I'm reading this correctly, variable-symbol-p return T if the first char of symbol is '?', and nil otherwise. Right?
2017-09-15T02:56:11Z pjb: Of course, it must be more sophisticated: when you have collected all the bindings, you must check they are unified.  You cannot have both (?a the) and (?a a) in the result!
2017-09-15T02:56:21Z pjb: neachdainn: correct.
2017-09-15T02:57:12Z pjb: You will have functions for repeated matches, optional matches, alternative matches, etc…
2017-09-15T02:57:33Z pjb: You can also write a macro to match a serie of patterns against a run-time expression.
2017-09-15T02:57:40Z neachdainn: I that gives me a solid base to figure this out. Thank you!
2017-09-15T02:58:14Z pjb: The macro would be more sophisticated, since it'd do compile-time work to expand to a let with the bindings…
2017-09-15T02:58:22Z pjb: the expected bindings.
2017-09-15T02:59:24Z neachdainn: I think that's getting far more sophisticated than my fourth Lisp function needs to be. Hahah
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2017-09-15T03:34:44Z neachdainn: Is there a way to zip lists? E.g., (zip '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) => ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6))
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2017-09-15T03:40:48Z marvin3:  (mapcar #'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
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2017-09-15T03:45:40Z neachdainn: marvin3: Thanks!
2017-09-15T03:45:49Z marvin3: np
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2017-09-15T04:21:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-15T04:21:46Z minion: beach, memo from Bike: there are instructions for converstions between float types but no primops/asts; i was going to add them with two types so you'd write like (cleavir-primop:coerce single-float double-float x). also, there's one for "unboxed integers", does this mean fixnums with tag shifted out to take advantage of machine instructions?
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2017-09-15T04:29:27Z drmeister: Hi beach - do you have a few minutes to talk about class redefinition and fastgf?
2017-09-15T04:29:38Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-15T04:30:06Z drmeister: Here's what I thought should happen when a class is redefined.
2017-09-15T04:31:25Z drmeister: I should (1) identify the minimal set of generic functions that may need their call histories edited to remove entries that have selectors that match the redefined class and and remove those entries and  (2) I should invalidate the dispatchers for those generic functions.
2017-09-15T04:31:40Z beach: Why do you want to remove those entries?
2017-09-15T04:31:55Z beach: And why do you want to invalidate the dispatchers?
2017-09-15T04:32:02Z drmeister: Good question - I couldn't recall why - I just felt the imperative to do so.
2017-09-15T04:32:09Z beach: Figure it out.
2017-09-15T04:32:42Z drmeister: I need to invalidate the dispatchers because their code contains the old stamp for the class.
2017-09-15T04:32:48Z beach: Correct.
2017-09-15T04:33:22Z beach: And you can either recompute the dispatcher on the fly, or you can set it so something that will.
2017-09-15T04:33:44Z beach: mop specializer-direct-generic-functions
2017-09-15T04:33:44Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-generic-functions.html
2017-09-15T04:33:47Z drmeister: Honestly, I've been wracking my brains for hours why I might need to remove the entries from the call history - I can't recall.    I also can't recall how to obtain the minimal set of generic functions that need invalidation.    I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction.
2017-09-15T04:33:54Z beach: That's the "minimal set of generic functions...".
2017-09-15T04:34:09Z drmeister: That's not sufficient.
2017-09-15T04:34:17Z drmeister: Here's the problem that I ran into.
2017-09-15T04:34:37Z drmeister: INITIALIZE-INSTANCE has a single method specialized on T.
2017-09-15T04:35:14Z beach: I don't see why you need to remove the call history entries.
2017-09-15T04:35:30Z drmeister: INITIALIZE-INSTANCE is called on PRETTY-STREAM when it has the old stamp 851.
2017-09-15T04:35:55Z drmeister: The PRETTY-STREAM class is redefined and gets a new stamp value 2001
2017-09-15T04:36:52Z drmeister: ensure-class-using-class calls the function that invalidates dispatchers that are effected by the class change.
2017-09-15T04:37:26Z drmeister: How does that function use specializer-direct-generic-functions given the class PRETTY-STREAM to get the generic function INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2017-09-15T04:38:00Z drmeister: Do I accumulate all of the generic functions that are specializer-direct-generic-functions of the class-precedence-list of PRETTY-STREAM?
2017-09-15T04:38:26Z drmeister: Because the only specializer that INITIALIZE-INSTANCE is a specializer-direct-generic-functions of is (find-class 'T)
2017-09-15T04:39:06Z drmeister: I can't recall why I was removing the call history entries - if I don't have to that is a relief and I will stop trying.
2017-09-15T04:39:17Z beach: Yes, I see.
2017-09-15T04:39:37Z beach: What makes you think you need to remove the call history entries?
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2017-09-15T04:40:36Z drmeister: As I said - I don't recall - it's just there in my code that I do it - but I wrote no comment why I was doing it.   I wrote a fair amount of code to achieve it - so I assumed there was a reason.   If there is no reason - then I will remove the code.
2017-09-15T04:40:53Z beach: Wait, I think you need to, at least in some situations...
2017-09-15T04:41:37Z drmeister: That being said - it seemed harmless to remove the entries - because they would be added back in the next dispatch miss.
2017-09-15T04:41:40Z beach: Certainly, when a class is redefined so that its class precedence list changes, then whether some methods are applicable or not to a particular signature may change.
2017-09-15T04:42:04Z beach: Yes, that seems right.
2017-09-15T04:42:26Z beach: And not only the entries for a particular class that is being modified, but also for all of its subclasses.
2017-09-15T04:42:28Z drmeister: Yes - right!   It was subtle like that.
2017-09-15T04:42:55Z drmeister: Right - and I was looking for all of it's subclasses.
2017-09-15T04:43:37Z drmeister: But see what I wrote above about not finding all of the generic functions that needed to be updated when I simply append together the results of calling specializer-direct-generic-functions on the subclasses of the specializer.
2017-09-15T04:44:26Z beach: I think you need something similar to SPECIALIZER-DIRECT-GENERIC-FUNCTIONS but that keeps track of what is in the call history instead.
2017-09-15T04:44:59Z drmeister: Could you elaborate?
2017-09-15T04:46:00Z beach: I think you need a function called (say) SPECIALIZER-CALL-HISTORY-GENERIC-FUNCTIONS that takes a class and returns a list of all generic functions that specializer in its call history.
2017-09-15T04:46:58Z beach: ... WITH that specializer...
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2017-09-15T04:49:31Z drmeister: Yes - that is what I need to write - I'm trying to figure out how to do it efficiently.
2017-09-15T04:49:52Z drmeister: I could search every generic function - that's a no-brainer - I was looking for something a bit more ... focused.
2017-09-15T04:50:33Z beach: No, you keep track of them.  Like a list in the class.
2017-09-15T04:50:44Z beach: And update that list when you update a call history.
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2017-09-15T04:51:05Z drmeister: Oh - really?
2017-09-15T04:51:07Z drmeister: Hmmm
2017-09-15T04:52:03Z drmeister: Would that be better than calculating it on the fly?   In the worst case it's a loop over all call-histories for every generic function.
2017-09-15T04:52:27Z beach: How do you find every generic function?
2017-09-15T04:52:39Z drmeister: I can get every generic function by calling specializer-direct-generic-functions on every class - bleh.
2017-09-15T04:52:52Z beach: You could do that.
2017-09-15T04:53:06Z drmeister: I get every class by calling my subclasses* function on (find-class 'T)
2017-09-15T04:53:10Z drmeister: Double bleh.
2017-09-15T04:53:35Z drmeister: But maybe better than keeping specializer-call-history-generic-functions up to date?
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2017-09-15T04:55:06Z beach: I don't understand why you think that, but you must have your reasons.
2017-09-15T04:57:43Z drmeister: Nope - no reasons - just anxiety over updating state like specializer-call-history-generic-functions would require.   Especially in a multi-threaded environment - every specializer will need a lock won't it?
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2017-09-15T04:58:28Z beach: It might be time for a back-of-envelope calculation
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2017-09-15T05:00:14Z drmeister: It may be.  I have about 500 classes.
2017-09-15T05:00:20Z beach: How often does it happen?
2017-09-15T05:00:30Z beach: Does it happen at run-time?  In a loop?
2017-09-15T05:00:32Z drmeister: Redefining classes?
2017-09-15T05:00:36Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-15T05:00:41Z drmeister: It happens during the build.
2017-09-15T05:01:03Z drmeister: All CLOS classes are defined twice.
2017-09-15T05:01:09Z beach: I see.
2017-09-15T05:01:25Z beach: So, again, it is about build time?
2017-09-15T05:01:30Z drmeister: We could take issue with that.
2017-09-15T05:01:45Z drmeister: No - I don't think the build time will be effected too badly.
2017-09-15T05:02:18Z drmeister: I'm just exploring options.   I'm starting to warm to the idea of maintaining a specializer-call-history-generic-functions and a mutex to protect it in each class.
2017-09-15T05:02:35Z drmeister: That would be about 8K
2017-09-15T05:03:40Z drmeister: There are only two functions that modify call histories in Clasp, one that adds to them and another that removes from them.
2017-09-15T05:05:10Z drmeister: I talked with scymtym about his implementation - he doesn't handle class changes yet.   Interestingly - he doesn't use integer stamps.   He uses the address of sbcl's 'layout' object in some sbcl mode where layouts don't move in memory.
2017-09-15T05:05:28Z beach: Yes, he told me.
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2017-09-15T05:07:31Z beach: My analysis is that this won't be included in SBCL, though.
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2017-09-15T05:25:49Z drmeister: Hmm.
2017-09-15T05:26:19Z drmeister: Well, I'm off to bed.  I'll think about specializer-call-history-generic-functions and probably implement it tomorrow.
2017-09-15T05:26:34Z drmeister: Thank you very much!
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2017-09-15T05:46:46Z drmeister: mop selectors
2017-09-15T05:46:47Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for selectors.
2017-09-15T05:46:52Z drmeister: mop selector
2017-09-15T05:46:52Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for selector.
2017-09-15T05:46:55Z drmeister: mop
2017-09-15T05:47:12Z drmeister: On that note - I'm off to bed.
2017-09-15T05:48:18Z drmeister: mop specializer
2017-09-15T05:48:19Z specbot: Matches: specializer, specializer.
2017-09-15T05:48:41Z drmeister: mop specializer, specializer.
2017-09-15T05:48:49Z drmeister: grrr
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2017-09-15T05:50:30Z beach: drmeister: You can PM specbot: /msg specbot mop ....
2017-09-15T05:51:06Z drmeister: I did, I am.  Specbot and I are having words.
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2017-09-15T07:01:58Z jackdaniel: drmeister: say hi to him ;)
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2017-09-15T08:37:07Z Harag: anybody recently used net.post-office (franz imap) in sbcl? I am getting errors...
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2017-09-15T08:52:35Z knobo using slime-scratch again.
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2017-09-15T08:53:31Z knobo: (hmmm... like a twitter twit)
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2017-09-15T10:21:48Z shka_: hello all
2017-09-15T10:23:03Z loke: Hello
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2017-09-15T10:30:59Z ioa: hi!
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2017-09-15T12:53:20Z drmeister: What is the relationship between specializers and classes? There is a specializer class and class classes.
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2017-09-15T12:59:31Z beach: drmeister: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
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2017-09-15T13:00:07Z Bike: huh, is there a 'metaobject' class?
2017-09-15T13:00:14Z Bike: mop metaobject
2017-09-15T13:00:14Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-metaobject.html
2017-09-15T13:00:15Z drmeister: Thank you - I keep forgetting to look at that class.
2017-09-15T13:00:19Z Bike: well huh
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2017-09-15T13:02:15Z drmeister: Huh is right.  Adding slots to specializer slides all of the class slots indices up.
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2017-09-15T13:03:18Z beach: Why does that matter?
2017-09-15T13:03:45Z beach: I hope you don't have this information in several different places.
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2017-09-15T13:40:19Z drmeister: I do have it in two places - it's in C++ and it's in Common Lisp.   There is a sanity check that causes the build to fail if the information gets out of sync.
2017-09-15T13:40:43Z drmeister: This is a design feature of ECL that I duplicated.
2017-09-15T13:41:27Z drmeister: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/src/h/object.h#L950
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2017-09-15T13:42:03Z drmeister: Note the hard coded indices in things like:   (x)->instance.slots[3]
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2017-09-15T14:05:32Z beach: If you can make a sanity check, why can't you automatically generate one of the instances?
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2017-09-15T14:09:01Z beach: A significant fraction of my time is spent coming up with techniques to avoid having a particular piece of information in more than one place.
2017-09-15T14:10:31Z ralt: do you hate caching? ;-)
2017-09-15T14:10:58Z beach: No, I think the opposite would be a maintenance nightmare, especially for people coming after me.
2017-09-15T14:12:00Z beach: To me, that's part of the very essence of software engineering.
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2017-09-15T14:16:45Z ralt: sorry, I didn't follow you when you said "the opposite"
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2017-09-15T14:18:38Z beach: I meant: No, I think having a particular piece of information in more than once place would be a maintenance nightmare, especially for people coming after me.
2017-09-15T14:19:53Z scymtym thinks beach is talking about duplication in source code while ralt is talking about duplication at runtime (hence "caching") 
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2017-09-15T14:20:02Z beach: Oh.
2017-09-15T14:20:19Z ralt: definitely looks like so
2017-09-15T14:20:28Z ralt: "piece of information" means "data" to me, not "code"
2017-09-15T14:20:35Z beach: scymtym: You are definitely right that I am talking about duplication in source code.
2017-09-15T14:21:06Z beach: ... which is what drmeister was talking about in Clasp.
2017-09-15T14:22:25Z beach: ralt: Caching has it's own problems, but not this particular one.
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2017-09-15T14:23:58Z Shinmera: In a way code duplication is like caching-- you also have the problem of knowing when to expire.
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2017-09-15T14:25:14Z beach: Hmm.
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2017-09-15T14:27:17Z jdz: Invalidate.
2017-09-15T14:27:38Z jdz: I think that's the word.
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2017-09-15T14:43:46Z drmeister: beach: We had a fire drill - I'm back
2017-09-15T14:45:10Z drmeister: It's better to specify the slots in the Common Lisp CLOS code - of course - but the C++ code needs to run loooong before the Common Lisp bootstraps up to CLOS and it needs to know where the slots are.
2017-09-15T14:45:32Z drmeister: To avoid circularity/bootstrapping problems it's easier to just bake it into the C++ code.
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2017-09-15T14:49:23Z beach: But you are planning to use SBCL to bootstrap Clasp.  Then you can extract that information from the Common Lisp code and generate the C++ code.
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2017-09-15T14:50:11Z drmeister: The indices of standard-class slots and the number of standard-class, and structure-class slots and the layout of a couple of types are the only places where I had to do this.  They all have sanity checks.
2017-09-15T14:52:25Z drmeister: We may have to do this...   (1) Run the Clasp interpreter to generate a configuration file (2) Run SBCL to compile the Clasp Common Lisp code to an intermediate representation (long lists of generic function calls) (3) Run the Clasp interpreter to load and interpret the intermediate representation to llvm bitcode.
2017-09-15T14:52:37Z drmeister: If we can we will avoid step (1)
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2017-09-15T14:57:13Z drmeister: We still haven't decided if we are going to use sbcl to bootstrap Clasp.   There are nasty issues with environments that I'm not sure we have solutions to yet.
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2017-09-15T14:57:33Z beach: I see.
2017-09-15T14:57:53Z drmeister: We can save a discussion about that at a later time - Bike is more up on the details.   I've had my head in fastgf for weeks.
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2017-09-15T14:58:31Z drmeister: He may even have a solution to it that I'm not aware of.
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2017-09-15T15:15:03Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-15T15:15:39Z beach: Though I don't think I have much to contribute.  I am just asking questions that come to mind.
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2017-09-15T15:41:58Z green_: ok, I have a newbie lisp package question... see here: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/2nnzraEoqHCH2EdElS1~-w
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2017-09-15T15:43:05Z green_: I guess I don't understand the rules around how symbols and packages interact.
2017-09-15T15:43:09Z beach: green_: When the reader sees your DEFPACKAGE form, it creates a symbol named MYFUNC in the COMMON-LISP-USER package.
2017-09-15T15:43:50Z beach: green_: Then, the DEFUN form, creates a symbol MYFUNC in the WHY package.
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2017-09-15T15:43:58Z mfiano: green_: the WHY package is using all of the symbols from CL-USER, then you are adding all of those symbols to CL-USER.
2017-09-15T15:44:05Z Bike: no
2017-09-15T15:44:06Z beach: green_: Finally, when you do USE-PACKAGE, there is a conflict.
2017-09-15T15:44:15Z rpg: You should never use CL-USER.
2017-09-15T15:44:27Z Bike: that's not what's happening. beach is right, it's simple
2017-09-15T15:45:05Z beach: green_: To avoid this problem, the typical solution is to use a "symbol designator" that is not a symbol in your DEFPACKAGE form.
2017-09-15T15:45:28Z green_: example?
2017-09-15T15:45:42Z beach: green_: I personally use an uninterned symbol like (:export #:myfunc)
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2017-09-15T15:46:22Z beach: green_: You can also use (:export "MYFUNC"), but that looks ugly because the string needs to be upper case, whereas your function name is written in lower case.
2017-09-15T15:48:28Z beach: green_: Having said that, I do think that you should not USE-PACKAGE your package.
2017-09-15T15:49:43Z beach: green_: Just use explicit package prefixes when you are in the COMMON-LISP-USER package, like why:myfunc.
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2017-09-15T15:50:08Z green_: beach, thanks, but I thought I had to export it in order  to do that
2017-09-15T15:50:15Z green_: export it in defpackage
2017-09-15T15:50:17Z beach: Yes, you do.
2017-09-15T15:50:23Z beach: In the way I told you.
2017-09-15T15:50:30Z green_: let me try...
2017-09-15T15:50:36Z beach: (:export #:myfunc) or (:export "MYFUNC")
2017-09-15T15:51:11Z rpg: the former is mildly preferable, in case there's any chance your code will be run in a case-sensitive lisp session
2017-09-15T15:51:51Z green_: but when I call why:myfunc I get "The symbol "MYFUNC" is not external to the WHY package".
2017-09-15T15:51:53Z beach: green_: The package system can be confusing to newbies because it is not a module system.  A package does not contain function definitions.  Only symbols.  So as soon as a symbol is read, it is created in some package.
2017-09-15T15:52:12Z beach: green_: Then you did not export it in your DEFPACKAGE form.
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2017-09-15T15:52:30Z green_: (defpackage :why
2017-09-15T15:52:31Z green_:   (:use :cl)
2017-09-15T15:52:31Z green_:   (:export :#myfunc
2017-09-15T15:52:34Z green_: )
2017-09-15T15:52:36Z green_: )
2017-09-15T15:52:48Z beach: I said #:myfunc, not :#myfunc.
2017-09-15T15:52:56Z green_: gah,
2017-09-15T15:53:11Z beach: :#myfunc is a symbol named "#MYFUNC" in the keyword package.
2017-09-15T15:53:12Z green_: THANKS!
2017-09-15T15:53:16Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-15T15:53:32Z beach: ... whereas #:myfunc is an uninterned symbol.
2017-09-15T15:53:36Z beach: clhs #:
2017-09-15T15:53:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm
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2017-09-15T16:06:09Z jollygood2: hi
2017-09-15T16:06:09Z minion: jollygood2, memo from pjb: dang! I was find -ing to find the reference, but I was ssh-logged into another computer!  Here it is: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf
2017-09-15T16:06:25Z jollygood2: pjb thanks
2017-09-15T16:07:44Z jollygood2: an unrelated question. is it ok to use 'function in most cases over #'function (when passing a function to a function)?
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2017-09-15T16:09:47Z Bike: it's "okay" in that it's usually allowed, but it doesn't do the same thing.
2017-09-15T16:09:48Z _death: it's ok when you expect the function in the symbol's function slot to be used and the receiver takes a function designator
2017-09-15T16:10:14Z jollygood2: when is it not allowed?
2017-09-15T16:10:52Z |3b|: 'function will let called function notice changes to FUNCTION if it stores it for a while before using it, #'function is required if you want to pass a local function
2017-09-15T16:10:55Z _death: the time when the actual function is looked up and whether it's looked up more than once is then determined by the callee
2017-09-15T16:10:56Z Bike: can't think of any standard cases off the top of my head.
2017-09-15T16:11:40Z Shinmera: I mean, function calling goes through either funcall or apply and both take a function designator, so by extension everything else should too.
2017-09-15T16:12:15Z dlowe: It can be really subtle which to use.
2017-09-15T16:12:35Z dlowe: For instance, if you store a #'function in a variable, it will not update if you redefine it
2017-09-15T16:12:47Z dlowe: whereas using a function symbol will
2017-09-15T16:12:50Z jollygood2: |3b| so if I got it right in f('g), assuming f stores the passed argument and that g is updated after the call, updated 'g will be called, while in f(#'g) case definition at the time of this call will always be called?
2017-09-15T16:13:00Z jollygood2: i don't have sbcl in here to check
2017-09-15T16:13:28Z _death: Shinmera: sometimes you declare things to be functions, or force a function designator to be a function.. usually for performance reasons.. sometimes you treat symbols differently from functions so you don't expect to receive a function designator..
2017-09-15T16:14:01Z Shinmera: _death: Sure. I was thinking of stuff part of the standard library
2017-09-15T16:14:06Z jollygood2: dlowe, interesting. I think I like the latter behavior more
2017-09-15T16:14:18Z jollygood2: 'function over #'function
2017-09-15T16:14:41Z dlowe: jollygood2: it's not a question of which you like more, you can want the other behavior too in some situations
2017-09-15T16:14:44Z Bike: let's see... function-lambda-expression
2017-09-15T16:14:47Z Bike: v. important
2017-09-15T16:15:07Z Shinmera: Heh
2017-09-15T16:15:24Z |3b|: if F contains a function name (as you would get from 'function), (funcall f) will always call the global function named by that name at that point in time. if F contains an actual function object (as returned by #'function), (funcall f) will always call that exact function object, even if the function has been redefined since
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2017-09-15T16:15:27Z jollygood2: dlowe sure it is. I can't think of a situation where I'd want old definition to be called, the way i work
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2017-09-15T16:15:58Z |3b| isn't sure if that is more clear or not, but seems like you got the idea from other explanations anyway :)
2017-09-15T16:16:06Z jollygood2: yes I got it
2017-09-15T16:16:24Z |3b|: that is frequently a useful feature when you are storing the value for a long time
2017-09-15T16:17:51Z |3b|: most useful thing i can thing of that you can do with a function name but not a function object is generating the name of a corresponding setf function, but still not something you would do too often (and no guarantee SETF uses a SETF function for that name even then)
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2017-09-15T16:18:25Z jollygood2: a bit surprising then that, from what I've seen, that #'function is prefered, when one of the purported benefits of CL is live programming, defining and redefining functions as you go
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2017-09-15T16:19:17Z |3b|: other than that, maybe runtime code generation
2017-09-15T16:19:27Z Bike: if you use #' you can still do that fine, you just recompile a few more things.
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2017-09-15T16:19:59Z |3b|: don't even usually have to recompile, just run the thing containing the #' again, since it gets the value when #"foo is evaluated
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2017-09-15T16:20:27Z |3b|: only need to do extra work if the function object is stored somewhere
2017-09-15T16:20:36Z _death: jollygood2: local functions, anonymous functions, performance... basically passing a symbol is just a useful hack added to lisp at some point.. not meant to serve as the general use
2017-09-15T16:20:55Z |3b|: (including on the stack of a function in a loop, which might be a less obvious case)
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2017-09-15T16:21:23Z |3b| would say it is a useful generalization rather than a hack :)
2017-09-15T16:21:46Z |3b|: (and wouldn't be surprised if passing by name was the earlier form anyway)
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2017-09-15T16:22:51Z _death: 3b: I think I read at some point someone from the CL committee (maybe GLS) and he used the word "hack" to describe it, so I follow ;)
2017-09-15T16:24:26Z dlowe: oh, yeah. Calling a function can be faster (but not necessarily) than a function symbol
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2017-09-15T16:37:45Z beach: jollygood2: (flet ((less (x y) ...)) (sort list #'less)) works, but (flet ((less (x y) ...)) (sort list 'less)) does not.
2017-09-15T16:38:13Z beach: ... which was mentioned, but I am not sure jollygood2 understood it.
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2017-09-15T16:43:44Z jollygood2: I did
2017-09-15T16:43:53Z beach: OK, good.
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2017-09-15T17:50:19Z mfiano: What is the proper way to ignore unknown initargs unknown to the given class with make-instance? I see &allow-other-keys in the signature, but I'm not sure how to make use of it.
2017-09-15T17:50:55Z Shinmera: Add a method to initialize-instance that has &allow-other-keys in it.
2017-09-15T17:51:10Z mfiano: oh it seems :allow-other-keys nil works
2017-09-15T17:51:12Z shka: &key &allow-other-keys to be specific
2017-09-15T17:51:14Z mfiano: maybe by coincidence?
2017-09-15T17:51:21Z Shinmera: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((foo foo) &key &allow-other-keys))
2017-09-15T17:51:30Z shka: yup
2017-09-15T17:51:46Z shka: mfiano: exactly as Shinmera said
2017-09-15T17:52:10Z mfiano: Thanks
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2017-09-15T17:56:06Z mfiano: Is that an SBCL bug I found then? I can't reproduce on CCL
2017-09-15T17:56:21Z mfiano: Or just some undefined behavior
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2017-09-15T17:58:03Z Bike: but? what?
2017-09-15T17:58:05Z Bike: bug?*
2017-09-15T17:58:38Z mfiano: This works on SBCL, without a method added: (defclass foo () ((x :initarg :x))) (make-instance 'foo :x 1 :y 2 :allow-other-keys t)
2017-09-15T17:58:50Z mfiano: interestingly, it works with nil, too
2017-09-15T17:59:44Z Bike: if you have :allow-other-keys t anything is allowed
2017-09-15T17:59:58Z mfiano: also works with :allow-other-keys nil, though
2017-09-15T18:00:09Z Bike: yeah dunno what's going on there
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2017-09-15T18:01:44Z jasom: cl-unicode is the biggest blocker to packages in ql2nix now; both from direct dependencies and via cl-interpol which depends on it
2017-09-15T18:02:14Z jasom is working on patching it to not write to the asdf directory
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2017-09-15T18:35:01Z hjudt: i noticed that as time and updates pass, more and more versions of installed libraries pile up in the quicklisp directory. is there a command to clean old versions, keeping only the newest one?
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2017-09-15T18:35:38Z Xach: hjudt: yes
2017-09-15T18:35:42Z Xach: hjudt: it is called "clean"
2017-09-15T18:35:55Z Xach: (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")) is one way to call it.
2017-09-15T18:36:17Z Xach: it is not called automatically, yet, because i was concerned about deleting too much. it will be automatic in the future.
2017-09-15T18:36:41Z jasom: I can't imagine the source files take up all that much disk space anyways
2017-09-15T18:36:54Z jasom: Xach: am I misinterpreting systems.txt or does QL think that cl-unicode/build depends on the system cl-unicode?  That seems wrong to me...
2017-09-15T18:37:00Z mfiano: some projects include LOTS of example data, such as game libraries
2017-09-15T18:37:07Z mfiano: _that_ piles up
2017-09-15T18:37:07Z hjudt: Xach: thanks
2017-09-15T18:37:44Z hjudt: jasom: that's a typical developer attitude, not caring about the clean up ;-)
2017-09-15T18:38:03Z Xach: mfiano: i think a possible option there is to have a separate, infrequently-changing data project that the code depends-on
2017-09-15T18:38:34Z Xach: jasom: it is possibly due to some slash-system substitution going awry
2017-09-15T18:38:57Z jasom: Xach: that makes sense; I'm re-running ql2nix completely ignoring the deps in quicklisp for now.
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2017-09-15T18:38:58Z Xach: jasom: in the dist build process, slashed systems are replaced with their depends on or base name or both - don't recall at the moment.
2017-09-15T18:43:17Z jasom also needs to clean-up how he detects missing systems and libraries.  A little help on the lisp side of things would make my code much more compact...
2017-09-15T18:43:47Z hjudt: jasom: for reference, ql-dist:clean freed up 240M on my system
2017-09-15T18:44:24Z jasom: hjudt: so not much, like I said ;-)
2017-09-15T18:45:23Z Xach: all of quicklisp for all time fits in about 5GB
2017-09-15T18:45:41Z jasom: my smallest development system has 2TB so that's ~ .01%
2017-09-15T18:46:53Z hjudt: 381M old total, 141M new total. while not much in raw numbers, it's quite some saving. anyways, why waste space?
2017-09-15T18:47:24Z jasom is a digital packrat so his motto is "why delete something you might need later?"
2017-09-15T18:47:56Z Xach: i agree that wastefulness is bad
2017-09-15T18:48:30Z jasom: I honestly agree that wastefulness is bad too, I just can't motivate myself to do anything about something less than 10GB
2017-09-15T18:49:57Z mfiano: When you scale horizontally and have dozens of servers around the world, sacrificing disk in place of needed resources for a task that takes a small disk footprint, like a website, is a smart choice.
2017-09-15T18:50:21Z mfiano: Disk is cheap for local machines though, I agree.
2017-09-15T18:51:56Z jasom: use bundle-op for deploying, particularly if you care about disk space
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2017-09-15T19:03:00Z hjudt: it's not the disk space i usually have to worry about, but rather it can complicate things in some cases, e.g. software not behaving as expected because the wrong files are read, people not daring to delete files because they don't know about the consequences, increasing backup time,...
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2017-09-15T21:25:48Z ebrasca: phoe: Are you here?
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2017-09-15T21:28:10Z phoe: ebrasca: yes, for a moment
2017-09-15T21:28:15Z phoe: I run to sleep soon
2017-09-15T21:30:29Z ebrasca: phoe: Do you know how to make ssl certificate for hunchentoot with letsencrypt? ( https://letsencrypt.org )
2017-09-15T21:31:01Z ebrasca: phoe: My page is librepanther.com
2017-09-15T21:31:26Z phoe: ebrasca: I don't.
2017-09-15T21:31:33Z phoe: Maybe #lisp will be able to answer.
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2017-09-15T21:31:44Z ebrasca: phoe: bye
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2017-09-15T21:34:33Z shrdlu68: ebrasca: I think making certificates is not server-specific.
2017-09-15T21:34:51Z ebrasca: shrdlu68: It give me http://ix.io/zXB
2017-09-15T21:36:37Z shrdlu68: Hmm, is your dns set up right?
2017-09-15T21:37:02Z shrdlu68: Did you pick option 1 or two?
2017-09-15T21:37:31Z ebrasca: 1
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2017-09-15T21:37:56Z ebrasca: I make my page with cl-who
2017-09-15T21:38:12Z shrdlu68: In that case you need to shut hunchentoot down so that certbot can take the port, 80 or 443.
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2017-09-15T21:41:43Z ebrasca: shrdlu68: I try it now.
2017-09-15T21:42:08Z shrdlu68: It ought to be a really quick and painless process using certbot.
2017-09-15T21:43:38Z ebrasca: shrdlu68: tcp or udp ?
2017-09-15T21:44:11Z shrdlu68: er...tcp I suppose. What's the context?
2017-09-15T21:46:10Z shrdlu68: They use some protocol that verified that you really own the domain name you're trying to make the certificate for, which is why certbot needs to either take up port 80 temporarily or give you some files to place in the webroot with any server.
2017-09-15T21:46:21Z shrdlu68: s/verified/verifies/
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2017-09-15T22:07:28Z jasom: can't you also give certbot a directory to put a file in, and have hunchentoot serve it up?
2017-09-15T22:11:10Z shrdlu68: As far as I know, there's only the option of certbot giving you files to place in the web root.
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2017-09-15T22:26:54Z Xach: That's what I did with certbot.
2017-09-15T22:27:05Z Xach: Just added a hunchentoot handler for the path that spits out the auth file.
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2017-09-15T23:44:43Z jasom: ebrasca, shrdlu68: sudo certbot certonly --webroot -w /foo/bar/baz
2017-09-15T23:45:07Z jasom: ebrasca, shrdlu68: and then setup hunchentoot to serve up files in /foo/bar/baz/.well-known/ as the path /.well-known/
2017-09-15T23:45:18Z jasom: no need to stop hunchentoot then
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2017-09-15T23:55:01Z jasom: hmm, anyone knows if it's possible to hook into the SBCL sigint handler on linux?
2017-09-15T23:55:09Z jasom would like the stack to unwind before exiting
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2017-09-16T00:00:30Z jasom: hmm, it seems to signal the condition interactive-interrupt
2017-09-16T00:00:55Z jasom: bah, it enters the debugger and I'm running with --disable-debugger
2017-09-16T00:10:01Z iqubic: How does apply differ from funcall?
2017-09-16T00:10:35Z iqubic: Like let's say I have a lambda that I want to execute. Why would I use funcall over apply, or vice versa?
2017-09-16T00:11:21Z Bike: funcall takes arguments as arguments, apply takes them as a list
2017-09-16T00:11:32Z pjb: If you don't know the number of arguments, you shall use apply, otherwise funcall.
2017-09-16T00:12:06Z pjb: (funcall #'+ 1 2 3 4)  (apply #'+ 1 2 list-of-remaining-arguments)
2017-09-16T00:12:18Z iqubic: Why wouldn't you know the number of args? Can you use appy with a function that has an &ress parameter?
2017-09-16T00:12:28Z iqubic: s/appy/apply
2017-09-16T00:12:46Z Bike: (apply #'+ (compute-a-list-of-numbers))
2017-09-16T00:12:47Z pjb: of course.  Or you can write a macro that has to call a function, but it doesn't know the number of arguments.
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2017-09-16T00:13:15Z iqubic: What would such a macro look like?
2017-09-16T00:13:17Z pjb: (defmacro do-something (fun) `(apply ,fun (read)))
2017-09-16T00:13:20Z pjb: whatever.
2017-09-16T00:13:37Z iqubic: What does read repersent in that macro?
2017-09-16T00:13:43Z pjb: clhs read
2017-09-16T00:13:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
2017-09-16T00:13:45Z aeth: (defun avg (numbers) (/ (apply #'+ numbers) (length numbers))
2017-09-16T00:14:14Z iqubic: Let's talk about macros.
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2017-09-16T00:14:32Z pjb: That said, in both cases, you should check for call-arguments-limit, and use reduce in the later case (signal an error in the former).
2017-09-16T00:15:11Z iqubic: Can I use a case statement in a macro to have the expansion change based on the value of a variable?
2017-09-16T00:15:33Z Bike: The value of a variable when?
2017-09-16T00:15:42Z Bike: Is the value known at compile time?
2017-09-16T00:15:47Z iqubic: Yes.
2017-09-16T00:15:51Z Bike: then sure.
2017-09-16T00:15:51Z pjb: iqubic: of course.
2017-09-16T00:15:55Z pjb: macros are mere functions.
2017-09-16T00:16:08Z Bike: macro functions are just functions. the only thing magical about them is when they run, which isn't very magical at all
2017-09-16T00:16:24Z iqubic: Can macros have multiple s-exps in them?
2017-09-16T00:16:43Z Bike: Do you mean, can a macro expand into multiple forms?
2017-09-16T00:16:57Z pjb: The only difference is that macro function always take two arguments: the whole expression, and the environment.
2017-09-16T00:17:15Z iqubic: Bike: Yeah.
2017-09-16T00:17:17Z pjb: iqubic: macros are normal functions, they can have any number of s-exps in them!
2017-09-16T00:17:31Z pjb: But they always return one single sexp.
2017-09-16T00:17:37Z Bike: Not directly. You can expand into something like (progn ...), which executes a number of forms in sequence.
2017-09-16T00:17:57Z pjb: macro-function:  whole-sexp × environment --> sexp
2017-09-16T00:18:15Z ebrasca: jasom: I work with cl-who in hunchentoot.
2017-09-16T00:18:19Z aeth: Iirc, a top level progn is the exception to some of the top-level-only rules because that's the intended output for certain kinds of macros
2017-09-16T00:18:33Z iqubic: why do you have to use (progn ...)
2017-09-16T00:18:34Z pjb: defmacro wraps that with a destructuring-bind so that you don't have to do it yourself on the whole-sexp.
2017-09-16T00:18:52Z pjb: iqubic: because the macro has to return only ONE fucking sexp.
2017-09-16T00:19:17Z aeth: rule #3 here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2017-09-16T00:19:22Z aeth: Useful for e.g. declaim
2017-09-16T00:19:35Z iqubic: pjb, why are you swearing?
2017-09-16T00:19:42Z aeth: so 3.2.3.1.3 is why progn is used
2017-09-16T00:19:51Z pjb: So that you record better: I already wrote above one sexp.
2017-09-16T00:20:01Z aeth: sorry, 3.2.3.1, rule 3
2017-09-16T00:20:15Z pjb: <02:18:17><pjb> But they always return one single sexp.
2017-09-16T00:20:15Z pjb: <02:19:19><iqubic> why do you have to use (progn ...)
2017-09-16T00:20:15Z pjb:  
2017-09-16T00:20:43Z pjb: Clearly, your brains are not ON.  Suck the "fucking" is designed so that you switch from OFF to ON.
2017-09-16T00:20:53Z pjb: s/Suck/So/
2017-09-16T00:21:01Z Bike: dude, chill out a bit.
2017-09-16T00:21:10Z pjb: It works!
2017-09-16T00:21:36Z aeth: It doesn't have to be designed that way. They could have supported values or something (similar to multiple return values in functions). They just don't. But progn works because the spec was designed for progn to work in that way.
2017-09-16T00:22:01Z Bike: there wouldn't be much point to having multiple return values
2017-09-16T00:22:05Z aeth: Probably because it's easier to work with `(progn ...) than (values a b c d ...)
2017-09-16T00:22:06Z Bike: since you can just return a progn form
2017-09-16T00:22:30Z pjb: And often not even a progn, but something else, like locally, let, do, etc.
2017-09-16T00:23:14Z pjb: handler-case, unwind-protect..
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2017-09-16T04:24:06Z iqubic: And now you have the jitters I assume?
2017-09-16T04:25:03Z shrdlu68: I am both fatugued and extremely alert...a distressingly unnatural state.
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2017-09-16T04:39:20Z jasom: my dad used to say that he didn't use coffee to stay awake for work because he'd have to rewrite all the code after he got some sleep
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2017-09-16T04:40:20Z jasom: instead he added a line to his makefile that would echo a bunch of ^G characters to the terminal after it was done building and nap until the beeps woke him up
2017-09-16T04:41:51Z vtomole: hahaha
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2017-09-16T06:26:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-16T07:10:35Z Marcy: How can I get slime to load something as soon as it starts? I tried editing my .emacs file and it's not working.
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2017-09-16T07:29:03Z jackdaniel: Marcy: you mean someting Common Lisp?
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2017-09-16T07:29:29Z jackdaniel: then you can put anything in ~/.sbclrc (in case of sbcl), or ~/.eclrc (in case of ecl) etc
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2017-09-16T14:23:36Z rtf34: any document contain all theory about prime number?
2017-09-16T14:24:22Z beach: I think you would be better off asking in a more relevant channel.
2017-09-16T14:24:23Z rtf34: hey there!
2017-09-16T14:25:12Z White_Flame: There's a pretty simple document listing all the prime numbers, but I ran out of harddrive space trying to download it
2017-09-16T14:25:20Z rtf34: no one interested?
2017-09-16T14:25:46Z beach: rtf34: It is off topic.
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2017-09-16T14:27:18Z rtf34: sorry but i just have a problem with my lisp program, it's have to processing about totient phi of euler project
2017-09-16T14:28:29Z rtf34: so i want to know about prime
2017-09-16T14:29:05Z jackdaniel: I'm sure there is #math channel on freenode for this kind of questiosn
2017-09-16T14:29:20Z rtf34: ok, sorry everyone
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2017-09-16T14:59:46Z flip214: White_Flame: you should choose some other encoding, the Kolmogorov complexity of prime numbers is quite small.
2017-09-16T15:01:50Z White_Flame: can you submit a patch to gzip then? ;)
2017-09-16T15:02:40Z flip214: White_Flame: no, the gzip format is too limited for that...  but there are compression programs that try to build algorithms, perhaps one of these would succeed.
2017-09-16T15:02:55Z Bike: fix bug where infinitely long files cannot be compressed
2017-09-16T15:03:46Z White_Flame: flip214: that would be amazing, because afair there's still no non-search algorithm to generate all the prime numbers, right?
2017-09-16T15:03:54Z flip214: similar to the gnu superoptimizer
2017-09-16T15:04:30Z flip214: White_Flame: well, sieve of eratosthenes wouldn't be called searching, would it? they just come out, one after another.
2017-09-16T15:04:48Z Bike: what is a "non-search algorithm"
2017-09-16T15:05:32Z White_Flame: one which directly computes the next prime, instead of testing candidates
2017-09-16T15:05:53Z flip214: White_Flame: if you start from 2, no guessing is involved. if you have enough time and storage, that is.
2017-09-16T15:06:40Z White_Flame: or put differently, a purely mathematical function to compute the next prime given a prior, as opposed to an algorithm
2017-09-16T15:07:14Z Bike: purely mathematical functions don't compute
2017-09-16T15:07:30Z Bike: {2 -> 3, 3 -> 5, 5 -> 7, 7 -> 11, ...} is a perfectly fine function
2017-09-16T15:07:31Z White_Flame: right, a person would compute the result of the function
2017-09-16T15:08:14Z Bike: whether an algorithm to compute the function proceeds by "testing candidates" doesn't matter
2017-09-16T15:08:36Z White_Flame: correct, it's just a matter of time & space complexity
2017-09-16T15:08:58Z Bike: whether it proceeds by testing candidates is not directly related to its complexity
2017-09-16T15:09:00Z White_Flame: as mentioned, we can describe how to find all prime numbers, just not feasible mean
2017-09-16T15:09:01Z White_Flame: +s
2017-09-16T15:09:07Z flip214: on that topic, you could read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov
2017-09-16T15:09:12Z Bike: sieves are perfectly feasible
2017-09-16T15:09:22Z Bike: as is AKS or whatever
2017-09-16T15:09:23Z flip214: Bike: mine always get clogged
2017-09-16T15:09:24Z Bike: primes are easy
2017-09-16T15:10:12Z White_Flame: then why does finding the next largest prime always take so long? ;)
2017-09-16T15:10:34Z flip214: White_Flame: because you didn't keep track of _all_ the smaller ones.
2017-09-16T15:10:41Z flip214: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GaussianPrime.html BTW
2017-09-16T15:10:46Z Bike: because they're already huge?
2017-09-16T15:11:04Z White_Flame: Bike: so you mean it's an issue of feasibility?
2017-09-16T15:11:17Z Bike: and i don't know why the time complexity even matters given that you're talking about computing all primes, which would obviously take forever
2017-09-16T15:12:22Z White_Flame: well, give me an algorithm to compute the Nth prime in constant time, and I'll be happy that primes are "solved" :)
2017-09-16T15:12:35Z flip214: Bike: well, if computers keep speeding up by some constant factor every year, it won't.
2017-09-16T15:12:56Z flip214: yeah, well, they didn't for the last few years, right. Sadly.
2017-09-16T15:13:05Z Bike: that's not going to happen, so hey, no problem
2017-09-16T15:13:10Z flip214: Such reasoning was much easier 20 years ago, when the Law still held.
2017-09-16T15:13:33Z Bike: all these shitty ass 3 nm transistors burning holes in metal
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2017-09-16T15:14:02Z flip214: literally, in some cases
2017-09-16T15:14:32Z flip214: I've seen some ICs on a PCIe card being burned, up to the surface
2017-09-16T15:14:46Z flip214: was some major construction fault, I guess
2017-09-16T15:15:24Z flip214: we wondered why the machines didn't accept the PCI devices, a reboot ago they were still present?
2017-09-16T15:15:37Z flip214: but then we found out that having holes in ICs doesn't help.
2017-09-16T15:19:27Z Bike: anyway, AKS is polynomial in number of digits, which is obviously pretty tractable asymptotically. though the useful algorithms are higher O but quicker in practice. but most of the "biggest primes" we fine are mersenne, which we describe by an exponential power, so naturally it's going to get harder and harder quickly
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2017-09-16T15:20:26Z flip214: well, IMO the randomly-generated primes for cryptography are more important than some "size matters" findings
2017-09-16T15:20:56Z Bike: in some sense, yes, but i thought the topic was generating all primes
2017-09-16T15:21:36Z flip214: still, I guess you'd be generating "my" random primes much earlier than your "big" ones, at least when enumerating them ;)
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2017-09-16T15:24:25Z _death: but your random primes may not be primes after all..
2017-09-16T15:25:32Z flip214: _death: if we'd only skip the randomness part, and actually start generating them one-by-one, this wouldn't happen!
2017-09-16T15:26:04Z _death: flip214: sure.. here's a program to generate all primes: (loop for i from 2 do (output i)) ;)
2017-09-16T15:26:23Z flip214: _death: lots of non-primes in there, too.
2017-09-16T15:26:30Z flip214: please filter them out.
2017-09-16T15:27:03Z flip214: [yeah, I know.   (loop for i from 2 if (is-prime? i) do (output i))  -- thanks.]
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2017-09-16T16:16:46Z shrdlu68: Are there documentation methods which employ some sort of graph that traces function calls and branches from the entry point to the exit point?
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2017-09-16T16:18:17Z shka: shrdlu68: sequence graphs of UML for instance
2017-09-16T16:19:17Z shrdlu68: shka: Is it widely used?
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2017-09-16T16:19:35Z shka: i guess so
2017-09-16T16:21:45Z scymtym: UML sequence diagrams are mostly used to specify or document object collaboration. "entry point to exit point" sounds more like things happening within a function for which an UML activity diagram would be more suitable which is not to say that it would be very suitable
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2017-09-16T16:31:07Z shka: shrdlu68: perhaps you can start with just toying with graphviz?
2017-09-16T16:31:17Z shka: and see how useful that is
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2017-09-16T16:32:40Z pjb: graphviz is perhaps too general.  There are web services to draw easily from some textual description UML diagrams, including sequence diagrams.
2017-09-16T16:33:05Z pjb: https://yuml.me/diagram/scruffy/class/samples
2017-09-16T16:35:40Z pjb: http://plantuml.com
2017-09-16T16:35:53Z pjb: ^ sequence diagrams provided by plantuml
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2017-09-16T16:42:31Z shrdlu68: I've been testing cl-tls with a modified version of dex, and everything appears to work as it should. I can put the modded dex up somewhere is anyone is interested.
2017-09-16T16:43:58Z shrdlu68: Tried to mod drakma, but it wasn't as straight-forward to do as dex.
2017-09-16T16:44:20Z shrdlu68: ^for testing, of course.
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2017-09-16T16:53:30Z emaczen: In what ways does lisp allow you to control memory consumption? Or is this implementation specific?
2017-09-16T16:54:16Z Shinmera: Lisp does not have any concept of memory.
2017-09-16T16:54:22Z Shinmera: You were told this before.
2017-09-16T16:55:26Z shrdlu68: emaczen: Control consumption in what way?
2017-09-16T16:55:53Z Cthulhux: i never thought lisp would take too much memory anyway
2017-09-16T16:56:24Z White_Flame: there is "consing up memory" which just means allocation, vs reuse of data structures.  That's generally the level of control in any GC language
2017-09-16T16:56:43Z emaczen: Shinmera: Yes that's right.
2017-09-16T16:56:52Z White_Flame: in some implementations, allocating typed arrays can compact them, but they're not required to
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2017-09-16T16:58:40Z JuanDaugherty: clhs room
2017-09-16T16:58:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_room.htm
2017-09-16T16:59:20Z emaczen: I have a data-structure which I am converting to a serialized one that I can work with on disk. I keep running out of memory. I'm serializing several of these data structures, I think that my program should finish if it would just  garbage collect immediately after every serialization
2017-09-16T16:59:38Z White_Flame: in general, you can think in count of "slots" if you're going to micro-optimize how large a footprint your data structures are going to hold
2017-09-16T17:00:05Z White_Flame: you can usually force garbage collection, but the system already is doing that if you're running out
2017-09-16T17:00:18Z White_Flame: it only dies with out of memory if a GC does not free up more room
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2017-09-16T17:00:50Z emaczen: If there is no concept of memory in lisp are there no memory leaks then?
2017-09-16T17:01:07Z White_Flame: you're obviously holding on to more than you think you are, somewhere
2017-09-16T17:01:17Z White_Flame: also be aware of the repl history values, if you're calling things immediately
2017-09-16T17:01:24Z White_Flame: *interactively
2017-09-16T17:01:36Z emaczen: White_Flame: I'm not sure why it would hold onto this data structure once it is serialized
2017-09-16T17:01:39Z Bike: there is no CONCEPT of memory leaks :p
2017-09-16T17:01:42Z White_Flame: not it, you :)
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2017-09-16T17:02:05Z White_Flame: (well, not "it" as in the implementation, but probably "you" as in your code)
2017-09-16T17:02:49Z White_Flame: are you successfully completing output for some of the structures, and it dies later on, or does it die processing the first one?
2017-09-16T17:03:23Z emaczen: White_Flame: It successfully completes serialization of at least one of the data structures.
2017-09-16T17:04:29Z emaczen: I have some unused slots in the data structure because they are utility classes that I use everywhere for convenience. Is there some kind of operator or declaration that will get the compiler to forget about them?
2017-09-16T17:04:49Z stylewarning: wat
2017-09-16T17:04:50Z emaczen: I have (optimize (speed 3) (space 3)) at the top of each file
2017-09-16T17:04:51Z Bike: Forget about slots? No, you'd just have to take them out of the definition.
2017-09-16T17:06:32Z shka: crazy stuff today
2017-09-16T17:07:02Z emaczen: What is strange about this problem in general is that it is a prefix-tree, before I was using a hash-table and so the prefix-tree I thought should be more space-efficient since it will re-use prefixes but I can't get it to work out that way...
2017-09-16T17:07:15Z emaczen: My node data structure has too many extras...
2017-09-16T17:07:41Z shka: emaczen: remove extras, declare types, switch to struct…
2017-09-16T17:08:25Z edgar-rft: ...or only implement extras that need no memory
2017-09-16T17:08:32Z emaczen: shka: I actually did convert my prefix-tree class of nodes to a pure list representation and it still used more memory than my hash-table
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2017-09-16T17:09:00Z shka: well, you are not showing your code
2017-09-16T17:09:15Z emaczen: shka: The pure list representation used WAY less than my class implementation though
2017-09-16T17:09:53Z emaczen: shka: I have a very large class hierarchy
2017-09-16T17:10:57Z emaczen: There is no doubt I could implement a pure-list implementation, but my hope was that I could just get around that and write some declarations or learn something about memory consumption in general.
2017-09-16T17:11:46Z emaczen: shka: Where do you usually declare types?
2017-09-16T17:12:01Z Bike: why do you have slots you don't use?
2017-09-16T17:12:09Z Bike: the implementation will not just forget about slots for you.
2017-09-16T17:12:45Z emaczen: Bike: I made some mistakes a year ago
2017-09-16T17:12:55Z emaczen: I've based my classes off of some of them
2017-09-16T17:12:58Z Bike: fix them?
2017-09-16T17:13:52Z emaczen: Bike: The fix would just be creating and merging some classes like "valued-node" and "named-node"
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2017-09-16T17:14:25Z emaczen: It sounds all fine and simple, but I don't feel like breaking it. I think I would rather implement the pure list solution
2017-09-16T17:14:55Z emaczen: Bike: I'm not so familiar at the moment with that class hierarchy or "valued-node" and "named-node"
2017-09-16T17:15:07Z emaczen: it is more complex than that too of course
2017-09-16T17:15:30Z emaczen: Bike: Would those slots really kill so much memory anyway?
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2017-09-16T17:26:12Z Bike: well, it means a word at least per instance, probably
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2017-09-16T18:01:30Z Marcy: crackers
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2017-09-16T18:25:13Z alphor: what other capabilities besides conditional evaluation does being a special form provide?
2017-09-16T18:26:12Z alphor: where cond-evaluation is: (if #f (not-evaluated) (evaluated))
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2017-09-16T18:29:23Z random-nick: conditional evaluation is pretty much the point of special forms
2017-09-16T18:29:30Z vtomole: Anyway I can eval a form in a complex procedure: #c((/ pi 4) 0)?
2017-09-16T18:31:45Z vtomole: Got it: `(complex (,(/ pi 4) 0))
2017-09-16T18:32:10Z aeth: # generally means literal, just like '(1 2 3)
2017-09-16T18:32:18Z aeth: so e.g. #(1 2) or #C(1 2)
2017-09-16T18:32:30Z _death: alphor: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html
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2017-09-16T18:33:24Z random-nick: clhs sharpsign c
2017-09-16T18:33:38Z _death: vtomole: (complex (/ pi 4))
2017-09-16T18:33:41Z Bike: clhs #c
2017-09-16T18:33:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhk.htm
2017-09-16T18:34:17Z aeth: #C quotes everything, complex does not
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2017-09-16T18:34:54Z vtomole: So they #c and complex are not the same thing. Got it.
2017-09-16T18:34:55Z jackdaniel: aeth: your assertion is very harmful, because it is untrue – # is a dispatching macro character - there are #. for evaluation, #- read-time conditional, #o octal etc
2017-09-16T18:35:25Z aeth: jackdaniel: generally when it's #...(...) the elements inside the list are quoted is probably a better way of phrasing it
2017-09-16T18:35:25Z jackdaniel: so saying that it generally means literal may be very confusing
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2017-09-16T18:35:50Z jackdaniel: #.(print "oh really")
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2017-09-16T18:36:37Z aeth: read eval is a very special case
2017-09-16T18:37:54Z jackdaniel: (progn #1=(print "another one") #1#)
2017-09-16T18:38:47Z jackdaniel: '#:and-this #| and this |# #s(foo :and :this)
2017-09-16T18:38:58Z jackdaniel: well, the last one isn't a good example
2017-09-16T18:39:23Z _death: #Z(this too)
2017-09-16T18:40:35Z Baggers: _death: what is #z in your impl, I dont think that one is in the standard
2017-09-16T18:41:00Z _death: Baggers: that's the point :)
2017-09-16T18:41:03Z jackdaniel: I think the point is that it's not literal either, but rather undefined macro character
2017-09-16T18:41:21Z jackdaniel: oh
2017-09-16T18:41:40Z Baggers: _death: ah gotcha. So could be whatever you defined :)
2017-09-16T18:42:50Z _death: and you can also have a *mentos-readtable* that returns fresh objects, I guess
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2017-09-16T18:49:16Z shrdlu68: Is it possible to use open with :element-type '(unsigned-byte n) and read only n-bit integers. where n is not a multiple of 8?
2017-09-16T18:49:42Z Bike: depends on the implementation
2017-09-16T18:49:44Z Bike: but: probably not
2017-09-16T18:50:08Z _death: shrdlu68: depends on the implementation.. offhand I think on sbcl you can use 16/32/64 as well, but not sure
2017-09-16T18:51:14Z _death: shrdlu68: oh, not a multiple of 8..
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2017-09-16T18:55:31Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: I think binary-types had abstraction for that (not 100% sure though)
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2017-09-16T18:58:35Z shrdlu68: "...a library for accessing binary format files with fixed bit-length code-words..." Seems to be what I need.
2017-09-16T18:59:54Z shrdlu68: Er, "...It will basically only work with file-formats based on 8-bit bytes..."
2017-09-16T19:00:41Z Bike: well, yeah.
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2017-09-16T19:00:47Z Bike: what else are you doing, exactly?
2017-09-16T19:00:59Z shrdlu68: No big deal, I can read in octets and mask the bits I don't need.
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2017-09-16T19:19:48Z stylewarning: Lol @ mentos-readtable
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2017-09-16T19:24:53Z phoe: Is there any kind of "soft" SUBSEQ?
2017-09-16T19:25:03Z phoe: Like, I want it not to error if the list is too short.
2017-09-16T19:25:15Z phoe: So (SOFT-SUBSEQ '(1 2 3) 0 50) ;=> (1 2 3)
2017-09-16T19:25:20Z _death: you need to write it yourself, or look for one in the myriad utility libraries
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2017-09-16T19:27:06Z _death: https://github.com/death/gnusdumps/blob/master/driver/main.lisp#L92
2017-09-16T19:27:23Z phoe: <3
2017-09-16T19:27:25Z phoe: What license is this?
2017-09-16T19:27:42Z phoe: MIT, okay.
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2017-09-16T20:04:02Z gnuhurd: hello, in my function in Common Lisp, I iterate throught a 2-dimensional list and try to set each element to a random boolean with (setf (nth i (nth j grid)) (random-boolean))
2017-09-16T20:04:56Z gnuhurd: but this returns a list like this: ((T NIL T T T) (T NIL T T T) (T NIL T T T) (T NIL T T T) (T NIL T T T))
2017-09-16T20:05:04Z oleo: yah sure
2017-09-16T20:05:10Z gnuhurd: where every list in that list has the same elements... what's the problem here?
2017-09-16T20:05:26Z Bike: how do you make the list?
2017-09-16T20:05:35Z gnuhurd: (make-list w :initial-element (make-list h :initial-element T)))
2017-09-16T20:05:35Z oleo: you didn't loop ?
2017-09-16T20:05:49Z gnuhurd: I loop in my function, I didn't want to post the whole code here
2017-09-16T20:05:52Z gnuhurd: I'll make a pastebin
2017-09-16T20:05:55Z oleo: ah ok
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2017-09-16T20:06:10Z Bike: gnuhurd: then all the sublists will be the same list.
2017-09-16T20:06:24Z Bike: the initial-element is only evaluated once.
2017-09-16T20:06:31Z gnuhurd: yes I know Bike
2017-09-16T20:06:37Z pjb: gnuhurd: (let ((w 3) (h 2)) (map-into (make-list w) (lambda () (make-list h :initial-element T)))) #| --> ((t t) (t t) (t t)) |#
2017-09-16T20:06:44Z Bike: well, you haven't absorbed the consequences, then
2017-09-16T20:06:57Z Bike: since all the sublists are the same list, when you alter one of the rows you alter all the rest
2017-09-16T20:07:19Z gnuhurd: http://sprunge.us/eUeT
2017-09-16T20:07:34Z gnuhurd: this is the full code
2017-09-16T20:07:50Z Bike: right
2017-09-16T20:07:53Z pjb: Of course, you can also initialize it randomly.
2017-09-16T20:08:02Z Bike: so, you make one list of five elements
2017-09-16T20:08:09Z Bike: then you make another list where all the elements are that one list
2017-09-16T20:08:29Z pjb: gnuhurd: (let ((w 3) (h 2)) (map-into (make-list w) (lambda () (map-into  (make-list h) (lambda () (zerop (random 2))))))) #| --> ((nil nil) (t nil) (t t)) |#
2017-09-16T20:09:06Z pjb: gnuhurd: notice that in CL we have multi-dimensional arrays.
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2017-09-16T20:10:00Z pjb: So: (let ((w 3) (h 2))   (let ((table (make-array (list w h)))) (map-into (make-array (* w h) :displaced-to table) (lambda () (zerop (random 2)))) table)) #| --> #2A((t t) (t nil) (nil nil)) |#
2017-09-16T20:10:57Z pjb: and use O(1) (aref table i j) instead of O(w*h) (nth i (nth j list-of-list))…
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2017-09-16T20:17:39Z stylewarning: Never tell someone a data structure to use unless you're sure you know what they're doing
2017-09-16T20:17:43Z stylewarning: ;)
2017-09-16T20:18:39Z oleo: eheh
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2017-09-16T20:24:33Z Devon: Interesting article about another indentation-heavy languace at https://StackOverflow.blog/2017/09/14/python-growing-quickly
2017-09-16T20:24:58Z Devon: languace/language
2017-09-16T20:25:17Z Bike: "indentation heavy" is an incredibly boring characterization of programming languages
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2017-09-16T20:30:04Z Shinmera: Syntax is the easiest thing to criticise.
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2017-09-16T20:32:08Z dxtr: So should one use lispbuilder-sdl or cl-sdl2?
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2017-09-16T20:35:16Z phoe: woah
2017-09-16T20:35:25Z phoe: I just realized that I can SETF SUBSEQ
2017-09-16T20:35:35Z _death: I usually use REPLACE
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2017-09-16T21:24:33Z phoe: is there some kind of reduce-collect function? if I have (1 2 3 4 5), I'd like to collect 1+2, then (1+2)+3, then ((1+2)+3)+4, ...
2017-09-16T21:24:48Z phoe: with #'+, of course
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2017-09-16T21:32:11Z Devon: (reverse (maplist (lambda (args) (apply #'+ args)) (reverse (list 1 2 3 4 5)))) => (1 3 6 10 15)
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2017-09-16T21:35:47Z Devon: (loop for n in (list 1 2 3 4 5) for sum = n then (+ sum n) collect sum) => (1 3 6 10 15)
2017-09-16T21:38:25Z Baggers: Devon: thanks, I havent use 'then' in loop before, this is a nice example
2017-09-16T21:38:55Z phoe: Devon: thanks!
2017-09-16T21:39:08Z phoe: Xach: are you around?
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2017-09-16T21:39:34Z XachX: Ahoy
2017-09-16T21:39:39Z phoe: Ahoy
2017-09-16T21:39:43Z phoe: I have some SKIPPY questions.
2017-09-16T21:39:47Z XachX: Ok!!!
2017-09-16T21:39:58Z phoe: I have a GIF file of sorts.
2017-09-16T21:40:48Z phoe: I want to get a rendered GIF, as it would appear on screen, preferably in form of sequence of arrays which contain the respective RGB values.
2017-09-16T21:41:50Z phoe: And from what I see, SKIPPY is a library for handling GIF data and not for rendering GIF files.
2017-09-16T21:41:56Z phoe: So I would need to implement the rendering part myself.
2017-09-16T21:41:58Z phoe: Am I correct?
2017-09-16T21:47:31Z XachX: Yes
2017-09-16T21:52:41Z phoe: Well
2017-09-16T21:52:44Z phoe: Someone needs to be the first.
2017-09-16T21:52:52Z phoe: Expect a PR soon.
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2017-09-16T21:56:42Z |3b|: (loop for n in (list 1 2 3 4 5) sum n into s collect s) => (1 3 6 10 15)
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2017-09-16T21:57:29Z oleo: jeh
2017-09-16T21:57:39Z oleo: 1, 1+2, 1+2+3, 1+2+3+4.....
2017-09-16T21:59:59Z |3b|: or for functional style, (defun foo (f) (let ((s (funcall f))) (lambda (a) (setf s (funcall f s a))))) (mapcar (foo #'+) (list 1 2 3 4 5)) => (1 3 6 10 15)
2017-09-16T22:00:49Z _death: for series style, (series:collecting-fn t (constantly 0) #'+ (series:scan-range :from 1 :upto 5))
2017-09-16T22:01:27Z oleo: huehuehue
2017-09-16T22:01:32Z oleo: so many ways
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2017-09-16T22:04:15Z phoe: actually
2017-09-16T22:04:24Z phoe: #'+ is fun, because LOOP has its SUM keyword
2017-09-16T22:04:38Z phoe: but I want to make it work with arbitrary functions
2017-09-16T22:04:49Z phoe: so basically what Devon said up there
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2017-09-16T22:05:48Z |3b|: yeah, missed that part in loop version
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2017-09-16T22:18:25Z XachX: phoe: for rendering?
2017-09-16T22:18:53Z phoe: XachX: yes.
2017-09-16T22:18:59Z XachX: phoe: I think closure the browser renders. Using skippy as the data source.
2017-09-16T22:19:37Z phoe: XachX: huh.
2017-09-16T22:19:41Z phoe: let me grep the sources of closure.
2017-09-16T22:20:17Z phoe: https://github.com/dym/closure/blob/52c00f48d9eac73a8c0207b8174e8317224c5bc0/src/imagelib/gif.lisp#L43
2017-09-16T22:20:32Z phoe: I see it, except I neex to figure out what an aimage is.
2017-09-16T22:21:37Z phoe: oh goodness, and suddenly my small projects starts depending on McCLIM
2017-09-16T22:21:46Z phoe: project*
2017-09-16T22:23:06Z phoe: ...oh wait a second
2017-09-16T22:23:07Z phoe: XachX: https://github.com/dym/closure/blob/52c00f48d9eac73a8c0207b8174e8317224c5bc0/src/imagelib/gif.lisp#L45
2017-09-16T22:23:20Z phoe: I don't think closure supports *animated* GIF rendering
2017-09-16T22:23:31Z XachX: I think it does.
2017-09-16T22:24:10Z XachX: phoe: I am not particularly interested in adding rendering I skippy. But I am open to persuasion.
2017-09-16T22:25:25Z phoe: XachX: given this function that I found there, I see that it only renders the last image of a stream.
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2017-09-16T22:26:03Z phoe: XachX: if you're not interested in that, then I guess you'll soon find yourself with another project pushed into quicklisp, called "skippy-renderer" or something like that.
2017-09-16T22:26:24Z XachX: WFM
2017-09-16T22:26:48Z phoe: Good.
2017-09-16T22:26:52Z phoe goes back to coding
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2017-09-16T22:34:02Z jasom: anyone have a good way to cause sbcl to unwind the stack on SIGINT with --disable-debugger?
2017-09-16T22:34:57Z Shinmera: A question for #sbcl, no?
2017-09-16T22:37:59Z phoe: XachX: question for SKIPPY documentation.
2017-09-16T22:38:06Z phoe: ":UNSPECIFIED - Do not erase the image from the display when displaying the next frame. This is the default value if disposal-method is not supplied."
2017-09-16T22:38:10Z phoe: ":NONE - Do not erase the image."
2017-09-16T22:38:35Z phoe: http://cs.nyu.edu/courses/fall10/V22.0004-002/animatedGifs.pdf tells me that :UNSPECIFIED actually *erases* the previous image.
2017-09-16T22:39:15Z phoe: Or, huh, wait a second. Disregard that, let me read up a bit more...
2017-09-16T22:40:27Z |3b|: unspecified = don't care, none = keep previous
2017-09-16T22:40:48Z phoe: What is the option to erase a frame completely, then?
2017-09-16T22:41:10Z phoe: I have transparent frame A and transparent frame B. I want to alternate between them.
2017-09-16T22:41:50Z |3b|: restore-background?
2017-09-16T22:42:46Z phoe: What is "background" in this terminology? The first frame?
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2017-09-16T22:43:15Z phoe: Oh. I see. A specially designated color.
2017-09-16T22:43:20Z phoe: Okay - I got it now.
2017-09-16T22:43:24Z phoe: Thanks.
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2017-09-16T22:52:31Z didi: How do you protect against infinite loops with `condition' and `restart'? e.g. I call function FN1, it signals condition CON1. I handle it and invoke restart RES1, that calls FN1 again, that signals CON1 again, and the cycle goes on.  The reason for restart RES1 calling FN1 is because it tries to change the input of FN1 so FN1 can do its job.  Is there a common idiom?
2017-09-16T22:54:06Z Bicyclidine: um, have the condition not be signaled again?
2017-09-16T22:54:18Z Bicyclidine: as in, have fn1 eventually do its job.
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2017-09-16T23:03:47Z didi: Bicyclidine: Indeed.
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2017-09-16T23:05:22Z Bicyclidine: i mean, basically avoid infinite loops by not writing them...
2017-09-16T23:06:17Z pjb: didi: decrement a try counter.
2017-09-16T23:06:50Z didi: pjb: Hum.
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2017-09-16T23:09:34Z vtomole: (setq my-num 3). `(q,my-num) = (Q 3). Is it possible to get rid of the space between q and 3?
2017-09-16T23:09:50Z pjb: vtomole: use INTERN
2017-09-16T23:09:57Z vtomole: clhs intern
2017-09-16T23:09:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2017-09-16T23:10:02Z pjb: vtomole: and there's no space there!
2017-09-16T23:10:13Z pjb: (first '(q 3)) #| --> q |#  (second '(q 3)) #| --> 3 |#  no space!
2017-09-16T23:10:13Z vtomole: There isn't?
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2017-09-16T23:18:10Z |3b|: space is just part of how it prints, the actual object is a list containing the symbol Q and number 3, no spaces
2017-09-16T23:18:37Z |3b|: (and part of the syntax used to READ it)
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2017-09-16T23:20:25Z |3b|: by the type the ` form is evaluated, the READ is already done, so it is too late to do things that would depend on interpretation of space characters, like deciding which characters are part of a particular symbol
2017-09-16T23:21:52Z phoe: AWWW YEAHHHH
2017-09-16T23:22:00Z phoe: It looks like my GIF renderer worked on the first try.
2017-09-16T23:22:16Z |3b|: so if you want a symbol that depends on runtime values, you need to create it (or find an existing one) manually, in which case INTERN as suggested (assuming you want a symbol accessible from code you write, or that you can generate again)
2017-09-16T23:23:10Z |3b|: if you don't need those properties, there are other options like make-symbol and gensym depending on what you are trying to do
2017-09-16T23:25:25Z pjb: or (gentemp "G") #| --> g0 |#  you don't have to deal with the counter when you use gensym and gentemp.
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2017-09-16T23:32:52Z ralt: I don't understand the difference between gentemp and gensym
2017-09-16T23:35:30Z |3b|: difference is "use gensym" :p
2017-09-16T23:36:20Z didi: ralt: `gentemp' interns symbols. `gensym' doesn't.
2017-09-16T23:36:27Z |3b|: gentemp interns, gensym doesn't
2017-09-16T23:36:31Z ralt: ah
2017-09-16T23:36:37Z ralt: ok
2017-09-16T23:36:42Z |3b| is slow :(
2017-09-16T23:37:03Z didi dances
2017-09-16T23:39:08Z |3b|: usually you don't want to create a new interned symbol though. gentemp won't return an existing symbol, for example any that you tried to use from already loaded code
2017-09-16T23:40:00Z |3b|: and at the point where you are generating code, usually it won't be READ, so doesn't matter if it is interned
2017-09-16T23:40:14Z pjb: gensym calls make-symbol instead of intern.
2017-09-16T23:42:21Z |3b|: gensym also has predictable names, since you can access (or override) the counter, while gentemp might skip numbers to avoid existing symbols. not usually a feature that matters though :)
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2017-09-16T23:49:08Z aeth: gentemp is deprecated. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_gentem.htm
2017-09-16T23:49:31Z pjb: deprecations in clhs are deprecated themselves.
2017-09-16T23:49:45Z aeth: It'll never be removed because there'll never be another spec, but it's still worth noting that it's the older method to gensym
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2017-09-17T00:03:11Z ralt: I do wonder why remove-if-not was deprecated
2017-09-17T00:03:59Z ralt: given that there's no replacement, and (remove-if (lambda (x) (not (foo x)) list) is more painful than (remove-if-not #'foo list)
2017-09-17T00:04:15Z Bicyclidine: you're supposed to use complement
2017-09-17T00:04:24Z Bicyclidine: (remove-if (complement #'foo) list)
2017-09-17T00:04:49Z aeth: All the -if-nots were deprecated. It might not have been clear at the time that remove-if-not is the more basic operation, equivalent to filter
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2017-09-17T00:05:19Z aeth: By the spec, complement is apparently supposed to be used, but the implementors don't optimize it.
2017-09-17T00:05:23Z ralt: aeth: but "filter" doesn't exist?
2017-09-17T00:05:32Z ralt: indeed, didn't know about complement
2017-09-17T00:05:36Z ralt: it does look nice
2017-09-17T00:05:40Z aeth: That is, remove-if-not will produce more efficient code than remove-if (complement in most if not all implementations
2017-09-17T00:05:59Z aeth: We've had this discussion several times. I'm not sure if anyone bothered to patch SBCL
2017-09-17T00:07:55Z phoe: Are there any portable CL libraries for interfacing with any sort of English dictionary?
2017-09-17T00:08:29Z phoe: Like, anything that will evaluate (dictionary "virtue") to some kind of object that is a dictionary entry for word "virtue"?
2017-09-17T00:09:06Z aeth: ralt: filter is a basic functional higher order function. It exists, it's just awkwardly called remove-if-not in CL.
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2017-09-17T00:09:31Z aeth: It's possible remove-if-not will be undepricated in the very unlikely event that there's a new standard.
2017-09-17T00:09:37Z ralt: aeth: ah, ok, I do know that, just didn't understand what you were saying
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2017-09-17T00:10:11Z ralt: well, with complement, I still get something nice with remove-if, so that's fine by me
2017-09-17T00:10:23Z aeth: The problem with not using -if-not functions are (1) everyone uses them while the complement style is very rare and (2) because of 1, the complement style is slower rather than producing identical code
2017-09-17T00:10:43Z aeth: at least in most, if not all, implementations
2017-09-17T00:11:31Z ralt: I already know I'm not getting the best optimization when using higher order functions anyway, that's an acceptable compromise
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2017-09-17T00:12:06Z aeth: When this discussion was last in here, it was brought up that SBCL could potentially optimize the remove-if (complement ...) style if it's "open coded", but I'm not sure if anyone has bothered to do so in the year or so since then
2017-09-17T00:12:17Z aeth: It probably wouldn't make a huge difference.
2017-09-17T00:13:57Z |3b|: shouldn't be too hard to do it with a compiler macro even (at implementation level, user code isn't supposed to do that)
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2017-09-17T00:29:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure why you'd say that filter is more fundamental than remove-if-not: they're equivalent, afaict
2017-09-17T00:29:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: reduce, however, is more fundamental than either map or filter.
2017-09-17T00:30:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: (and than remove-if)
2017-09-17T00:30:19Z marvin2: remove-if-not is filter
2017-09-17T00:30:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh, mis-typed
2017-09-17T00:30:41Z marvin2: not sure if anyone claimed o therwise
2017-09-17T00:30:44Z marvin2: otherwise
2017-09-17T00:31:29Z |3b| thought the claim was about remove-if-not (=filter) vs remove-if
2017-09-17T00:32:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I yeah, that's what I meant to say: I don't see why remove-if-not/filter is any more fundamental than remove-if
2017-09-17T00:33:12Z marvin2: it isn't. i just don't see the need for both
2017-09-17T00:33:27Z stylewarning: Because REMOVE-IF-NOT is easier to optimize
2017-09-17T00:33:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: really?
2017-09-17T00:33:43Z marvin2: stylewarning why?
2017-09-17T00:33:57Z |3b|: easier to optimize having both than having 1 + complement
2017-09-17T00:34:10Z stylewarning: REMOVE-IF with (COMPLEMENT F) is not straightforward to optimize
2017-09-17T00:34:28Z stylewarning: The second you're generating a closure with weird argument passing (likely an APPLY)
2017-09-17T00:34:36Z marvin2: you're worried about additional function call?
2017-09-17T00:34:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not for a user, but for an implementation it's pretty trivial
2017-09-17T00:35:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: complement is pure, so the compiler can just transform it into an additional NOT in assembly
2017-09-17T00:35:07Z marvin2: or they (standard writers) were worried?
2017-09-17T00:35:30Z |3b|: only trivial if you see the complement, (defun foo (f) (remove-if f ...)) is harder to optimize even for compilers
2017-09-17T00:35:35Z stylewarning: No, it's that in the end optimizing (REMOVE-IF-NOT #'F) can be inlined and all that jazz
2017-09-17T00:35:54Z |3b|: though i guess that isn't an interesting case
2017-09-17T00:36:07Z stylewarning: (REMOVE-IF (COMPLEMENT #'F)) will probably heap allocate a closure, have to re-pass arguments from the closure to F, etc
2017-09-17T00:36:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: |3b|: but then the compiler can just apply the optmization when it sees (foo (complement g))
2017-09-17T00:36:36Z Bicyclidine: "just"
2017-09-17T00:36:41Z stylewarning: "just"
2017-09-17T00:36:46Z |3b|: fiddlerwoaroof: probably easier to transform the remove-if (complement) to remove-if-not
2017-09-17T00:36:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: |3b|: sure
2017-09-17T00:37:35Z |3b|: transforming complement to asm-level negation might be harder (especially on sbcl with extensible sequences)
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2017-09-17T00:38:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: At the very least, COMPLEMENT is trivial to optimize because there is no reason to actually allocate a closure for it
2017-09-17T00:38:44Z stylewarning: "Trivial"
2017-09-17T00:39:01Z stylewarning: If by trivial you mean you can write out a way to do it absent of any other framework, I agree
2017-09-17T00:39:15Z _death: personally when I think of FILTER, I think of something different from REMOVE-IF-NOT.. FILTER returns a list of the non-null values returned by the semipredicate
2017-09-17T00:39:17Z stylewarning: If by trivial you mean it's a trivial thing to add to a given lisp compiler, I disagree
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2017-09-17T00:39:56Z |3b|: making actual function calls is the reason to allocate a closure for it
2017-09-17T00:40:11Z Bicyclidine: _death: so map plus remove-if-not?
2017-09-17T00:40:48Z |3b|: without a compiler macro or special form or similar, it has no way to know it has been removed
2017-09-17T00:40:49Z _death: Bicyclidine: (remove nil (mapcar #'fn list))
2017-09-17T00:40:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: |3b|: Can't you optimize away the closure if it doesn't introduce any new bindings?
2017-09-17T00:40:58Z Bicyclidine: right.
2017-09-17T00:41:09Z |3b|: fiddlerwoaroof: it has to bind the function
2017-09-17T00:41:54Z stylewarning: You may be able to stack allocate the closure but idk of any compiler that would do that
2017-09-17T00:41:57Z marvin2: _death I don't know a single language where filter works like that
2017-09-17T00:42:50Z |3b|: can't stack-allocate complement in general, so again would have to be a compiler-macro or similar to do so for functions where it is known to be  valid
2017-09-17T00:42:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: marvin2: in python remove(None, list) removes all the falsey values from the list
2017-09-17T00:43:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is sort of like what _death is talking about
2017-09-17T00:43:31Z stylewarning: |3b| yep
2017-09-17T00:43:51Z marvin2: fiddlerwoaroof yes. and filter in python does exactly the same thing as remove-if-not in CL
2017-09-17T00:44:42Z stylewarning: The problem with _death's imo is the fact the final list will contain fn(x) in the result, not x
2017-09-17T00:44:51Z marvin2: not saying that there aren't languages where filter works right that, but python isn't one of them
2017-09-17T00:44:57Z marvin2: like that
2017-09-17T00:45:11Z _death: I don't know where I picked that up, but it was definitely not python :).. likely some old lisp dialect/discussion
2017-09-17T00:45:16Z stylewarning: filter usually changes membership of a sequence, not the actual values
2017-09-17T00:46:18Z stylewarning: (REMOVE NIL SEQ :KEY FN) is more what I would expect
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2017-09-17T00:47:59Z _death: stylewarning: it's only a problem if you see filter as doing remove-if-not-like work..
2017-09-17T00:50:31Z _death: however, I should re-dig sources for its heritage
2017-09-17T00:51:02Z stylewarning: Filter even in just the English meaning of the word usually means to sieve or sift, not transform
2017-09-17T00:51:15Z stylewarning: It'd be neat to see where that hasn't been true in Lisp history tho
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2017-09-17T00:51:33Z phoe: I might write myself a Lisp interface for the GCIDE dictionary.
2017-09-17T00:51:42Z marvin2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_(higher-order_function)
2017-09-17T00:52:23Z phoe: Simply because I couldn't find any existing one.
2017-09-17T00:52:54Z phoe: Like - something that will give me an interface for an English dictionary.
2017-09-17T00:55:08Z stylewarning: What would the interface look like?
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2017-09-17T00:55:32Z _death: do you know sdcv-mode
2017-09-17T00:56:28Z phoe: stylewarning: (dictionary "aardvark") => #<DICT-ENTRY "aardvark" ...>
2017-09-17T00:56:37Z phoe: _death: I'm looking for an interface in portable CL.
2017-09-17T00:58:00Z stylewarning: What would DICT-ENTRY contain
2017-09-17T00:58:01Z _death: ah.. hack away
2017-09-17T00:58:36Z phoe: stylewarning: in the simplest form, just a string that contains the textual representation of a dictionary entry
2017-09-17T00:59:12Z phoe: in a less simple form, something that's already somewhat parsed - like, GCIDE contains things like
2017-09-17T00:59:15Z phoe: aardvark \aard"vark`\ ([aum]rd"v[aum]rk`), n. [D., earth-pig.]
2017-09-17T00:59:33Z stylewarning: That sounds nicer
2017-09-17T00:59:34Z phoe: the pronunciation could be unASCIIfied and turned into more unicodeish solution
2017-09-17T00:59:45Z stylewarning: It would be cool to have that as a lisp library.
2017-09-17T00:59:46Z phoe: and be put into a DICT-ENTRY slot.
2017-09-17T01:00:17Z stylewarning: In general it would be nice to have more accessible data sets in Lisp
2017-09-17T01:00:24Z stylewarning: That's what this really is: a data set
2017-09-17T01:00:26Z phoe: so this is split into two subprojects, 1) interfacing with the dictionary files, 2) parsing the entries from dumb strings into smarter Lisp objects
2017-09-17T01:00:33Z phoe: stylewarning: no, no, no
2017-09-17T01:00:37Z phoe: I don't want to generalize
2017-09-17T01:00:46Z phoe: I want to write a library for English dictionaries.
2017-09-17T01:00:48Z stylewarning: I'm not suggesting so
2017-09-17T01:00:52Z phoe: :D
2017-09-17T01:01:00Z phoe: I'm all out of energy for scope creep.
2017-09-17T01:01:13Z stylewarning: I'm just saying, in general, as a Lisp programmer, it would be nice if there were more data sets available to Lisp natively
2017-09-17T01:01:19Z phoe: Ayup, that's correct.
2017-09-17T01:01:30Z phoe: And GCIDE has this very nice form of being a big ole text file.
2017-09-17T01:01:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: The nice thing is that it's fairly easy to write interfaces to things in lisp
2017-09-17T01:01:40Z phoe: That seems to have some kind of indices.
2017-09-17T01:01:42Z stylewarning: If you start a project, I'd be happy to attempt to contribute
2017-09-17T01:02:00Z stylewarning: fiddlerwoaroof: I thought that was true but I changed my opinion to "of mild difficulty"
2017-09-17T01:02:05Z phoe: So one can just use a combo of WITH-OPEN-FILE and FILE-POSITION to jump to the proper part in the file.
2017-09-17T01:02:11Z vtomole: Why is a list unbound if i pass it into a macro?
2017-09-17T01:02:21Z phoe: vtomole: what do you mean, a list unbound?
2017-09-17T01:02:25Z _death: aha... I picked it up from the first CL book I read.. ANSI Common Lisp: https://i.imgur.com/HfPmscR.png
2017-09-17T01:02:31Z phoe: give us the source code and the error message
2017-09-17T01:02:34Z pjb: vtomole: you don't pass the list to the macro!
2017-09-17T01:02:35Z stylewarning: phoe, no, just parse the whole file and poop it back out as a sexp :)
2017-09-17T01:02:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: like, every once in a while I've wanted to wrap some rest api or something, and I've found it's fairly easy to wrap a huge amount of an api once you figure out the general shape of data access
2017-09-17T01:02:49Z White_Flame: vtomole:  because macros happen at compile time, before any of those actual expanded bodies are ever runtime invoked
2017-09-17T01:02:59Z phoe: stylewarning: ;_;
2017-09-17T01:02:59Z pjb: vtomole: the macro function is called at compilation time: there is no data then!
2017-09-17T01:03:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of course there's always edge-cases that end up being annoying
2017-09-17T01:03:03Z phoe: that would be pretty memory hungry
2017-09-17T01:03:22Z phoe: 40 MB of pure text file, it would take more as structured data
2017-09-17T01:03:43Z stylewarning: _death: terrible!
2017-09-17T01:03:51Z vtomole: Thank you
2017-09-17T01:04:00Z phoe: I'd rather keep it file-based and parse on demand.
2017-09-17T01:04:05Z stylewarning: phoe: not that much more
2017-09-17T01:04:05Z _death: stylewarning: still that function is useful at times ;)
2017-09-17T01:04:06Z vtomole: Man this channel is alive tonight! :)
2017-09-17T01:04:29Z phoe: stylewarning: nonetheless, 40+ MB more eaten memory isn't something I like
2017-09-17T01:04:32Z stylewarning: _death: its utility has been canceled out by its awful name. Should be (push x acc)
2017-09-17T01:04:43Z phoe: anyway
2017-09-17T01:04:47Z _death: stylewarning: it's been burned to my brain for the past decade
2017-09-17T01:04:56Z stylewarning: phoe: you trade memory for speed?
2017-09-17T01:04:57Z phoe: I'll write it first, and you can contribute later if you consider my way of doing it to be too much of a heresy.
2017-09-17T01:05:02Z stylewarning: Want to hit the disk every time?
2017-09-17T01:05:07Z phoe: stylewarning: d'oh
2017-09-17T01:05:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: stylewarning: mmap helps with that some
2017-09-17T01:05:33Z phoe: as if a function for getting a dictionary entry is going to be called automatically multiple times per second
2017-09-17T01:05:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: of course . . . you have to pull in a posix wrapper for that
2017-09-17T01:05:37Z stylewarning: But if you're going to mmap it, just parse it out. Let me MAPCAR all words in the English language
2017-09-17T01:05:43Z phoe: the moment this becomes a part of an automated system, I'd consider it
2017-09-17T01:05:48Z stylewarning: REMOVE-IF #'VERBP
2017-09-17T01:05:51Z stylewarning: :)
2017-09-17T01:06:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: you might write something that transforms it into sexps and then write those out
2017-09-17T01:06:13Z phoe: but my use case is popping up a window with a dictionary entry for someone who wants to look up a word at most hundreds of times per day.
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2017-09-17T01:06:18Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I might, correct.
2017-09-17T01:06:24Z phoe: perhaps two backends for the interface.
2017-09-17T01:06:30Z phoe: one file-backed, the other memory-backed.
2017-09-17T01:06:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've done that a couple times for reference-style things, and it's pretty nice to just be able to read in all your structured data
2017-09-17T01:06:44Z stylewarning: phoe but writing a library has unintended consequences :D all of English at my lispy fingertips
2017-09-17T01:07:11Z phoe: stylewarning: "The consequences are undefined if a programmer decides to write a Lisp library."
2017-09-17T01:07:15Z phoe: gosh, too much spec
2017-09-17T01:07:24Z stylewarning: ;)
2017-09-17T01:07:30Z phoe: okay - I'll just write my stuff when I'm less sleepy
2017-09-17T01:07:32Z phoe: good night!
2017-09-17T01:07:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: g'night
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2017-09-17T01:09:13Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: Do you have any code and/or libraries for accessing an English dictionary/thesaurus and spellchecking? I'm interested in portable Common Lisp code.
2017-09-17T01:09:14Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-17T01:10:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: you might look into the format that dictd uses
2017-09-17T01:11:16Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I did, it's pure ASCII.
2017-09-17T01:11:23Z phoe: It'll be a pleasure to interface with it.
2017-09-17T01:11:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: cool
2017-09-17T01:11:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm just installing dictd again
2017-09-17T01:13:08Z phoe: dict-gcide package
2017-09-17T01:13:28Z phoe: unzip the .dz file (it's a .gz in reality) and take a peek at its head -n 1500
2017-09-17T01:13:37Z phoe: and also take a look at the index file
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2017-09-17T01:19:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: the .dz format is interesting because it allows for "random" access to the compressed dictionary
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2017-09-17T02:56:00Z uneducated_idiot: Are Scheme questions allowed?
2017-09-17T02:56:51Z vtomole: No. But it's not busy here right now.... #scheme is usually quite
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2017-09-17T02:59:33Z aeth: "Lisp" can mean "the Lisp family of languages" or "the Lisp language". This channel uses the latter definition, so it's about Common Lisp. ##lisp uses the broader definition and #scheme is a channel for Schemes.
2017-09-17T03:00:10Z uneducated_idiot: aeth: I've posted in #scheme, but I'll check out ##lisp as well. Thanks!
2017-09-17T03:00:34Z aeth: Your specific Scheme might also have an IRC channel
2017-09-17T03:00:40Z aeth: Especially if it's Racket, Guile, or Chicken
2017-09-17T03:00:50Z uneducated_idiot: Probably not; it's Chez Scheme
2017-09-17T03:01:09Z aeth: There's a #chez with 21 people, so you'll probably have better luck in #scheme
2017-09-17T03:01:30Z uneducated_idiot: I'll give those a shot, thank you
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2017-09-17T04:24:07Z jasom: minion: scheme?
2017-09-17T04:24:08Z minion: scheme: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/scheme
2017-09-17T04:28:21Z ski: minion: chant
2017-09-17T04:28:21Z minion: MORE EATEN
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2017-09-17T04:36:11Z stylewarning: Are you folks familiar with the POWER architecture? Is it similar enough to PowerPC for the existing SBCL or CCL to work on it?
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2017-09-17T04:37:19Z jasom: stylewarning: POWER and PowerPC are largely synonymous; that being said if you're running on a ISA revision/OS combination not encountered before, a small amount of porting work could be needed
2017-09-17T04:37:48Z stylewarning: let's get SBCL on POWER9. :)
2017-09-17T04:38:31Z White_Flame: or get ready for "Systems using POWER10 are scheduled to be available in 2020."
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2017-09-17T04:44:06Z jasom: I think Power 8 and 9 are designed to be run LE for driver compatibility though; not sure if sbcl or ccl support LE power
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2017-09-17T04:52:47Z FareTower: should they even care about LE vs BE ?
2017-09-17T04:53:03Z FareTower: in more than trivial ways
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2017-09-17T06:04:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-17T06:11:26Z beach: minion: memo for phoe: I started such a thing: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Spell
2017-09-17T06:11:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-17T06:12:24Z parjanya: beach: what is it?
2017-09-17T06:12:30Z parjanya: good morning, btw :)
2017-09-17T06:13:11Z beach: parjanya: phoe was looking for Common Lisp code for an English dictionary for things like spell checking.
2017-09-17T06:14:25Z parjanya: oh wow, it’s a list of tagged forms
2017-09-17T06:14:25Z beach: parjanya: And good morning to you too.
2017-09-17T06:14:34Z parjanya: wordforms, I mean
2017-09-17T06:15:37Z beach: I forget.  It was some time ago.  It is supposed to return some standard instances that give all possible interpretations of some word in English.
2017-09-17T06:16:21Z parjanya: beach: that’s *very* useful, one could even write a syntax checker
2017-09-17T06:16:39Z parjanya: that would complain if it got things like "I does"
2017-09-17T06:16:53Z beach: Yes, that's the idea.  But I don't have time to work on it right now.
2017-09-17T06:17:15Z parjanya: yep, not the easiest thing to code, I suppose
2017-09-17T06:17:50Z beach: I do need a spell checker though.  I am getting increasingly dyslexic.  So before I can abandon Emacs in favor or Climacs, or beirc, or ..., I need one.
2017-09-17T06:18:26Z parjanya: beach: btw, I’ve seen a "Lispy lists" mentioned on YT, is it a book, a file, what is it?
2017-09-17T06:18:54Z beach: Doesn't ring a bell.
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2017-09-17T06:19:04Z parjanya: beach: so far I could only imagine writing it in python : / my Lisp idioms are coming very hard to me
2017-09-17T06:19:26Z beach: Sorry to hear about your long suffering.
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2017-09-17T06:20:10Z parjanya: hah, thanks, such is life
2017-09-17T06:20:57Z parjanya: anyhow, as a linguist perhaps I could help with the spell/syntax checker
2017-09-17T06:21:20Z beach: That would be fantastic.
2017-09-17T06:22:33Z parjanya: is phoe going to work on it?
2017-09-17T06:23:07Z beach: I don't know.  But I doubt it.
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2017-09-17T06:24:11Z parjanya: beach: anyhow, this is what I saw mentioning "lispy lists": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iferkSFzkF8
2017-09-17T06:24:51Z beach: Wow.
2017-09-17T06:25:06Z beach: He was my PhD student.
2017-09-17T06:25:37Z parjanya: aha :) I was digging really deep on YT yesterday
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2017-09-17T06:41:54Z parjanya: anyhow, I must sleep, I’ll check the spellchecker (hah) and see what can I do
2017-09-17T06:42:11Z beach: Great!  Sleep well!
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2017-09-17T07:17:29Z whoman: i wonder what it would take to have existing elisp happening there
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2017-09-17T07:24:02Z beach: What do you mean?
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2017-09-17T07:32:09Z whoman: of how complicated it would be to "translate" elisp into CL, i was thinking about this myself as i have some elisp code around
2017-09-17T07:34:30Z beach: I don't think it would be very hard.  The tough part is to implement all the infrastructure that it takes to execute the resulting code.
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2017-09-17T07:35:07Z beach: You could very well end up having to write a complete implementation of Emacs in Common Lisp in order for taht to work.
2017-09-17T07:35:09Z whoman: hmm, yeah; needs some kind of emacs-platform layer, hmm.
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2017-09-17T07:49:33Z flip214: hmmm, too late.
2017-09-17T07:50:16Z flip214: minion: memo for whoman: see https://github.com/adolenc/cl-neovim/issues/1 for some talking about "neomacs", which aims to get such a compat layer.
2017-09-17T07:50:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell whoman when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-09-17T09:32:14Z dxtr: Can I make the prompt in slime slightly more fancy? Right now it's just a *
2017-09-17T09:35:19Z oleo: dxtr: http://paste.lisp.org/+7MRM
2017-09-17T09:35:42Z oleo: edit the prompt string accordingly
2017-09-17T09:36:13Z dxtr: Oh sweet
2017-09-17T09:36:17Z dxtr: Thanks
2017-09-17T09:36:25Z oleo: will give you CL-USER> at the start since cl-user is the package at the start
2017-09-17T09:36:35Z oleo: and when you change into another package it will change too
2017-09-17T09:36:49Z dxtr: oleo: That's literally exactly what I wanted but I couldn't quite find the correct stuff to poke at
2017-09-17T09:37:14Z dxtr: Also, isn't the slime buffer usually read-only?
2017-09-17T09:37:19Z dxtr: Except for the last line
2017-09-17T09:37:30Z oleo: err no idea i don't work with slime
2017-09-17T09:37:44Z dxtr: Right
2017-09-17T09:38:03Z oleo: i either use rlwrap sbcl for getting completion and history (you have to create the completion and history files too ofc)
2017-09-17T09:38:23Z oleo: or activate linedit or use sb-aclrepl
2017-09-17T09:40:40Z beach: dxtr: If you don't get the CL-USER> prompt, there is something wrong with your SLIME installation.
2017-09-17T09:40:41Z oleo: dxtr: http://paste.lisp.org/+7MRM/1
2017-09-17T09:40:57Z dxtr: beach: Oh really?
2017-09-17T09:40:59Z oleo: when you load that file you'll get a .sbcl_completions file created
2017-09-17T09:41:15Z oleo: with all the symbols dumped
2017-09-17T09:41:59Z beach: dxtr: Do you see any error messages, or any other messages that indicate that something is wrong?
2017-09-17T09:42:20Z dxtr: beach: Not at all. Should that be the default behavior? I can't quite remember
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2017-09-17T09:42:47Z dxtr: Because now I get the CL-USER> after I added oleos stuff to sbclrc :p
2017-09-17T09:43:07Z beach: By default, you should get a buffer named *slime-repl ...* and it should have that prompt.
2017-09-17T09:43:23Z dxtr: I only get *inferior-lisp*
2017-09-17T09:43:29Z dxtr: With the sbcl prompt
2017-09-17T09:43:37Z beach: There is something wrong then.
2017-09-17T09:44:01Z beach: How did you install SLIME?
2017-09-17T09:44:33Z oleo: dxtr: http://paste.lisp.org/+7MRM/2
2017-09-17T09:45:27Z oleo: dxtr: that's how i start my sbcl or images thereof
2017-09-17T09:46:14Z beach: dxtr: How did you install SLIME?
2017-09-17T09:46:16Z oleo: dxtr: i'm not using emacs at all by the way, i start right into mcclim and use it's editor climacs too
2017-09-17T09:46:36Z beach: oleo: Maybe your advice is not so good if you are not using SLIME.
2017-09-17T09:46:55Z oleo: welp, swank is loaded too
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2017-09-17T09:47:28Z dxtr: beach: There. Fixed it :)
2017-09-17T09:47:39Z beach: What was the problem?
2017-09-17T09:48:12Z dxtr: My init.el checked for ~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el before actually setting up slime
2017-09-17T09:48:18Z dxtr: But that file doesn't exist now
2017-09-17T09:48:27Z dxtr: So I just switched it to (use-package slime....)
2017-09-17T09:49:07Z beach: None of that should be necessary.
2017-09-17T09:49:33Z dxtr: It shouldn't be necessary to install slime before using slime?
2017-09-17T09:49:47Z oleo: (require 'slime) ?
2017-09-17T09:49:58Z beach: dxtr: Why do you not have a slime-helper.el?
2017-09-17T09:50:00Z dxtr: use-package makes sure slime is actually installed
2017-09-17T09:50:20Z beach: dxtr: Did you not install SLIME using Quicklisp?
2017-09-17T09:50:37Z dxtr: I guess I didn't :)
2017-09-17T09:50:42Z beach: I recommend you do.
2017-09-17T09:50:58Z dxtr: https://github.com/slime/slime <- The slime instructions recommend MELPA
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2017-09-17T10:01:23Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
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2017-09-17T10:45:51Z razzy: 4673456323456787654323456787654323456
2017-09-17T10:51:39Z beach: razzy: Fascinating.
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2017-09-17T11:11:05Z razzy: beach: sorry, unintended.
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2017-09-17T11:22:35Z jackdaniel: it was meant to be boring? ;)
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2017-09-17T11:43:57Z beach: Heh!
2017-09-17T11:46:43Z razzy: beach: does it have meaning to you?
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2017-09-17T11:47:11Z beach: Not really, no.
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2017-09-17T12:01:10Z _death: it means humans are not very good at random-walking their keyboard's digits row
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2017-09-17T12:05:44Z Shinmera: razzy: It's likely a seed of some sort.
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2017-09-17T12:09:27Z edgar-rft: a seed for growing numbers
2017-09-17T12:09:51Z razzy: :D :D :D
2017-09-17T12:11:39Z razzy: actually, my keyboard sometimes spit random strings,... no meaning intended
2017-09-17T12:15:06Z razzy: it is frustrating at times :], funny in other times :]
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2017-09-17T12:33:15Z phoe: mingus: memo for Xach: https://github.com/phoe/fox5/blob/6d8f73882be6ddaf1f94d9a89153a38f1b0160fc/skippy.lisp
2017-09-17T12:33:16Z minion: phoe, memo from beach: I started such a thing: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Spell
2017-09-17T12:33:20Z phoe: XachX: ^
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2017-09-17T12:34:35Z phoe: beach: I will be making a Common Lisp interface to the GCIDE dictionary.
2017-09-17T12:35:22Z beach: OK.
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2017-09-17T12:36:17Z phoe: It'll be GPL-licensed because of GCIDE's license.
2017-09-17T12:36:26Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-17T12:36:45Z phoe: But, maybe it'll be possible to hook it to your spellchecker.
2017-09-17T12:39:19Z phoe: Can your Lisp wordlist be generated from the english-N files?
2017-09-17T12:39:38Z beach: I don't know.  I haven't looked at it for some time.
2017-09-17T12:40:34Z phoe: I might take a look at it one day.
2017-09-17T12:40:36Z beach: I don't see any part of speech information.  Is there any?
2017-09-17T12:40:48Z beach: ... in GCIDE I mean.
2017-09-17T12:40:55Z phoe: One second.
2017-09-17T12:41:33Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356107
2017-09-17T12:41:40Z beach: I see it.
2017-09-17T12:48:51Z beach: Oh, it won't work. :(
2017-09-17T12:49:34Z beach: There is no information about things like plural form, past tense, etc.
2017-09-17T12:50:21Z beach: Too bad.
2017-09-17T12:51:17Z phoe: ACtually.
2017-09-17T12:51:27Z phoe: You seem to have that information in your wordlists.
2017-09-17T12:51:42Z beach: Yes, and that's probably why I picked that particular one.
2017-09-17T12:51:45Z phoe: For each word in your spellchecker, you have its "base word".
2017-09-17T12:51:54Z phoe: And for that base word, you can find the GCIDE entry.
2017-09-17T12:52:10Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-17T12:52:20Z phoe: So I think we can link the two this way.
2017-09-17T12:52:57Z beach: That should be possible.
2017-09-17T12:53:30Z phoe: Good. I will try to write an interface for GCIDE and once I have it, we can think on how we can link the two together.
2017-09-17T12:53:40Z beach: OK.
2017-09-17T12:56:36Z phoe: mingus: d'oh, sorry
2017-09-17T12:56:41Z phoe: minion: memo for Xach: https://github.com/phoe/fox5/blob/6d8f73882be6ddaf1f94d9a89153a38f1b0160fc/skippy.lisp
2017-09-17T12:56:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-09-17T13:11:20Z _death: phoe: may want to avoid copying
2017-09-17T13:11:36Z phoe: _death: avoid copying? what do you mean?
2017-09-17T13:11:46Z phoe: which line?
2017-09-17T13:13:02Z _death: phoe: the one with copy-seq.. why not allocate all the frames in the beginning and just write to each one
2017-09-17T13:13:28Z phoe: because frame N depends on all frames that were before, so 1..N-1
2017-09-17T13:14:08Z phoe: so it's logical to me that for drawing frame N, I will want the result of drawing frame N-1, which depends on result of drawing frame N-2, ..., all up to frame 1
2017-09-17T13:14:31Z phoe: so it's logical to me to draw everything on one frame and then just collect their copies as results.
2017-09-17T13:14:54Z _death: so you pass the previous frame and merge the two data into a new frame
2017-09-17T13:15:24Z phoe: could do, sure thing - except I don't see any obvious optimizations here, sans for saving one frame's worth of memory
2017-09-17T13:15:36Z phoe: and doing one copying less
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2017-09-17T13:16:59Z _death: it should be much faster.. I've been doing image-related stuff w/ Lisp for some years :)
2017-09-17T13:18:50Z phoe: should be? why would allocating N images from the start and writing to them be much faster than copying an array N times after writing to it?
2017-09-17T13:19:02Z phoe: or rather
2017-09-17T13:19:18Z phoe: it might be - I'm sleepy despite waking up two hours ago.
2017-09-17T13:20:42Z _death: you can count the amount of pixels read and written
2017-09-17T13:20:46Z phoe: it works well enough for me so far, maybe I can make it faster - but I consider it fast enough so far.
2017-09-17T13:20:54Z phoe: sure thing
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2017-09-17T16:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: dxtr: the other thing that might be happening is that you're looking at the *inferior-lisp* buffer instead of the *slime-repl sbcl* buffer
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2017-09-17T16:02:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: my inferior-lisp just has the * prompt.
2017-09-17T16:02:25Z beach: I think he actually said that.
2017-09-17T16:03:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, missed that when I was reading the logs
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2017-09-17T21:27:59Z dxtr: Hmm
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2017-09-18T02:53:28Z didi: Is there a straighter way of changing the cdr of each cons of a list of cons than: (mapcar (lambda (x) (cons (car x) (change (cdr x)))) list-of-cons) ?
2017-09-18T02:58:56Z didi: I want to avoid calling (cons (car x) ...).
2017-09-18T03:00:51Z |3b|: mapcon?
2017-09-18T03:01:28Z |3b|: actually, i guess not
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2017-09-18T03:02:30Z didi: |3b|: I still want a new list. I just don't want to call (cons (car x) ...). I want to only change the cdr of conses.
2017-09-18T03:02:32Z |3b|: if CHANGE is a function, or you don't want to modify structure of input lists, then probably not
2017-09-18T03:02:47Z didi: |3b|: Thanks.
2017-09-18T03:03:13Z |3b|: but for example PUSH or SETF or INCF or whatever work fine on (cdr x)
2017-09-18T03:03:48Z didi: |3b|: Thank you.
2017-09-18T03:04:33Z |3b|: (don't forget to return x from the lambda in that case)
2017-09-18T03:04:58Z didi: Indeed.
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2017-09-18T03:17:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-18T03:18:29Z slyrus: morning beach
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2017-09-18T03:31:03Z pjb: didi: clhs 3.6 For list traversal operations, the cdr chain of the list is not allowed to be destructively modified.
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2017-09-18T03:31:39Z pjb: didi: this doesn't prevent you to implement your own iteration, mutating the cdr as you want.  But you have to think about what you are doing!
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2017-09-18T03:35:47Z White_Flame: didi: if you change every cdr, then what even is the list anymore?
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2017-09-18T03:44:31Z |3b|: cdrs of conses stored in the list, not the ones making up the structure of the list
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2017-09-18T03:45:45Z White_Flame: ah
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2017-09-18T03:46:25Z pjb: (dolist (cons list-of-conses) (setf (cdr cons) new-cdr))
2017-09-18T03:47:15Z stylewarning: RPLACD or bust
2017-09-18T03:47:36Z pjb: (let ((loc (acons :o 1 (acons :t 2 (acons :t 3  nil)))))  (dolist (cons loc loc) (setf (cdr cons) 0))) #| --> ((:o . 0) (:t . 0) (:t . 0)) |#
2017-09-18T03:48:34Z pjb: Now, if you insist on a HOF, use mapc:  (let ((loc (acons :o 1 (acons :t 2 (acons :t 3  nil)))))  (mapc (lambda (cons) (setf (cdr cons) 0)) loc)) #| --> ((:o . 0) (:t . 0) (:t . 0)) |#
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2017-09-18T04:17:51Z pillton: beach Bike: https://github.com/markcox80/template-function
2017-09-18T04:18:23Z beach: pillton: Great!  So it is ready for a release?
2017-09-18T04:18:39Z pillton: Well, an alpha at least.
2017-09-18T04:18:47Z beach: Nice!
2017-09-18T04:21:05Z pillton: The wiki contains a few examples of how to use it.
2017-09-18T04:22:39Z beach: You need to remind me of this.  I am working on the CST-to-AST system, and I am notorious for having a hard time switching between different tasks.
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2017-09-18T04:24:12Z stylewarning: pillton: is this your project?
2017-09-18T04:24:28Z pillton: Well, template-function and its relative specialization-store, are for solving problems similar to the problems you faced when implementing the CL sequence protocol.
2017-09-18T04:24:32Z pillton: stylewarning: Yes.
2017-09-18T04:24:56Z slyrus: and similar to ones I faced in wrting clem and opticl
2017-09-18T04:25:21Z stylewarning: pillton: did you see this kooky thing I wrote a few years ago? https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/parameterized-function
2017-09-18T04:25:59Z stylewarning: I don't think what I wrote is exactly matching the vision of what I wanted to write. But it worked ok enough for an efficient Lisp matrix library, even if the calling convention was verbose
2017-09-18T04:27:07Z stylewarning: Writing these keyword things out is pretty weird and unnatural
2017-09-18T04:27:26Z pillton: stylewarning: No I did not. Specialization store was semi-usable around that time.
2017-09-18T04:30:13Z stylewarning: I don't understand specialization-store :)
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2017-09-18T04:31:20Z pillton: That is ok. The documentation is a work in progress for that project.
2017-09-18T04:31:26Z stylewarning: What is it?
2017-09-18T04:32:10Z pillton: stylewarning: This is an example: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/tests/standard-store-syntax-layer.lisp#L20
2017-09-18T04:32:28Z pillton: It is like CL's generic functions but it can dispatch on type.
2017-09-18T04:32:57Z pillton: It has compile time dispatch on by default as well.
2017-09-18T04:33:21Z stylewarning: How good is compile-time dispatch?
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2017-09-18T04:33:45Z stylewarning: Will it work with type inference/propagation?
2017-09-18T04:33:46Z pillton: It can also dispatch on optional and keyword arguments and variadic functions.
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2017-09-18T04:34:25Z pillton: It will work with declarations provided your implementation is supported in Bike's introspect-environment system.
2017-09-18T04:38:07Z pillton: stylewarning: I haven't looked in to integrating it with an inferencing mechanism.
2017-09-18T04:40:12Z stylewarning: I want to help out with initiatives to make high level efficient code easier to write in Lisp
2017-09-18T04:41:18Z Zhivago: I used to think that type based dispatch was a good idea, and then I realized that it's only really useful if your function doesn't have coherent semantics.
2017-09-18T04:42:50Z stylewarning: My problem is usually just specializing functions for all different manner numbers, like single and double floats
2017-09-18T04:43:04Z stylewarning: Accepting FLOAT just makes slow code
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2017-09-18T04:44:04Z Zhivago: Ah, yeah -- CL screws up the type/class divide in places.
2017-09-18T04:44:14Z pillton: Zhivago: One of the premises is that it doesn't matter which specialization is executed.
2017-09-18T04:44:52Z Zhivago: pillton: Right, in which case you might as well dispatch off the representational decision.
2017-09-18T04:45:19Z stylewarning: There's a lot of conflation between type, representation, and class
2017-09-18T04:45:30Z Zhivago: pillton: It's just that CL doesn't expose fixnum, bignum, single-float, etc as classes.
2017-09-18T04:45:43Z pillton: Zhivago: It is to early to tell in my opinion.
2017-09-18T04:46:06Z pillton: It seems reasonable for someone to dispatch on negative and positive reals.
2017-09-18T04:46:45Z stylewarning: In what kind of case?
2017-09-18T04:47:57Z stylewarning: Replacing an IF with some spectacular function dispatch mechanism requires good justification in my opinion, at least if I have my code reviewer hat on
2017-09-18T04:48:25Z Zhivago: I think that defining functions with discontinuities isn't too terrible using some kind of pattern matching, but it doesn't feel like it's really the right thing to be trying to do in terms of type.
2017-09-18T04:50:09Z pillton: You are comparing apples and oranges. Specializations are independently extensible. COND is not.
2017-09-18T04:50:37Z stylewarning: Both require writing code and pressing some recompile button
2017-09-18T04:50:44Z pillton: The points you raise are valid. I'm certainly not replacing what people do already.
2017-09-18T04:50:45Z Zhivago: Sure, but does it make sense to independently extend a function in terms of semantic discontinuty?
2017-09-18T04:51:08Z pillton: For the sake of performance, yes.
2017-09-18T04:51:44Z pillton: Which is why one of the premises is that each specialization performs the "same" task.
2017-09-18T04:53:00Z pillton: This premise avoids the problem you find yourself in when dispatching on types that do not form a tree.
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2017-09-18T04:55:41Z Zhivago: Perhaps that's better handled using something like compiler-macros?
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2017-09-18T04:56:15Z pillton: I got sick of writing them, hence specialization-store and template-function.
2017-09-18T04:56:50Z stylewarning: I wish compiler macros would be fixed up
2017-09-18T04:56:53Z Zhivago: Fair enough :)
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2017-09-18T04:57:24Z stylewarning: I'm not sure how to fix them, but some extensible manner of defining them
2017-09-18T04:57:33Z stylewarning: Similar to SBCLs transforms
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2017-09-18T05:01:03Z pillton: Maybe if you provided me with an example I could implement it for you and put it on the wiki?
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2017-09-18T05:30:51Z jack_rabbit: Think I found a mistake in the CLHS here: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_prog1c.htm
2017-09-18T05:31:04Z jack_rabbit: "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form."
2017-09-18T05:31:13Z beach: jack_rabbit: Congratulations!  It is well known though.
2017-09-18T05:31:14Z jack_rabbit: Should that last part not be "second-form"
2017-09-18T05:31:16Z jack_rabbit: ahhv
2017-09-18T05:31:34Z jack_rabbit: oh well. :)
2017-09-18T05:32:15Z jack_rabbit: The maintainer has not been persuaded to update? Or is this a mistake in the official spec as well?
2017-09-18T05:32:25Z pillton wonders if he has used prog2.
2017-09-18T05:32:25Z beach: The latter.
2017-09-18T05:32:34Z jack_rabbit: bummer.
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2017-09-18T05:33:39Z jack_rabbit: So technically... are common-lisps that do the expected thing non-conforming, then?
2017-09-18T05:33:41Z beach: Didn't there use to be a Cliki page with an enumeration of those typos?
2017-09-18T05:34:11Z beach: jack_rabbit: That's a pretty philosophical question, really.
2017-09-18T05:34:21Z jack_rabbit: sure.
2017-09-18T05:35:34Z beach: jack_rabbit: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is a very good document as standards go.  But there are still a significant number of errors in it.  Not to mention numerous situations that are undefined or that have unpredictable results.
2017-09-18T05:36:25Z beach: jack_rabbit: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications
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2017-09-18T05:36:48Z pillton: clhs 1.5.1.5
2017-09-18T05:36:48Z specbot: Conformance Statement: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_eae.htm
2017-09-18T05:36:55Z jasom: there was debate as to whether or not a vector of type nil should be treated as a string (which a strict following of the hyperspec would require), but I think that one implementions decided to actually follow the spec as written
2017-09-18T05:37:49Z jasom: (make-array 0 :element-type nil) ;=> ""
2017-09-18T05:38:24Z jasom: nil is, after all, a subtype of character
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2017-09-18T05:40:58Z |3b| thought it was more that you had to be able to specialize arrays on NIL (and the result is a string), because it is also a subtype of bit
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2017-09-18T05:47:41Z loke: jasom: Wait what? NIL is a subtype of CHARACTER?
2017-09-18T05:47:53Z |3b|: the NIL type
2017-09-18T05:47:59Z |3b|: is a subtype of every other type
2017-09-18T05:48:17Z |3b|: the value NIL is of type NULL, and there are no values of type NIL
2017-09-18T05:48:22Z loke: |3b|: Fair enough. But NIL is also a subtype of iNTEGER
2017-09-18T05:48:41Z ecraven: do any slime devs frequent this channel?
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2017-09-18T05:48:58Z |3b|: right, which is why you can't upgrade NIL to any other type, since there are 2 disjoint required specialized types (CHARACTER and BIT) so it can't upgrade to either
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2017-09-18T05:49:16Z |3b|: *can't upgrade the type NIL
2017-09-18T05:49:26Z beach: clhs string
2017-09-18T05:49:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm
2017-09-18T05:49:40Z beach: A string is a specialized vector whose elements are of type character or a subtype of type character.
2017-09-18T05:50:50Z beach: Since NIL is a subtype of type character, a vector whose elements are of type NIL is a string.
2017-09-18T05:50:53Z |3b|: right, so once arrays specialized on type NIL exist, they are strings
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2017-09-18T05:51:12Z loke: |3b|: I still don't understand why such vectors can't be bit arrays?
2017-09-18T05:51:30Z beach: loke: Because it doesn't say something equivalent for bit arrays.
2017-09-18T05:51:44Z loke: or bitstrings or whatever they're called #*
2017-09-18T05:51:48Z |3b|: bitvectors
2017-09-18T05:51:52Z loke: thank you
2017-09-18T05:52:06Z beach: loke: The Common Lisp HyperSpec doesn't say "or a subtype of the type bit".
2017-09-18T05:52:10Z |3b|: or bit-vector
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2017-09-18T05:53:00Z beach: clhs bit-vector
2017-09-18T05:53:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_bt_vec.htm
2017-09-18T05:53:10Z beach: "A bit vector is a vector the element type of which is bit."
2017-09-18T05:53:23Z beach: not, "or a subtype of the type bit".
2017-09-18T05:53:32Z beach: loke: See?
2017-09-18T05:53:57Z beach: loke: So a vector with element type NIL can not be a bit-vector.
2017-09-18T05:55:10Z loke: beach: Fair enough, but you have to admit that it's very unlikely that this was actually considered during the spec design.
2017-09-18T05:55:31Z beach: loke: Of course.  I am just answering your question.
2017-09-18T05:55:40Z loke: beach: So you did. And I even agree with you.
2017-09-18T05:56:04Z |3b|: yeah, i suspect most implementations don't bother implementing arrays of type NIL in the first place
2017-09-18T05:56:24Z |3b| hopes any that do also print them as strings though :)
2017-09-18T05:56:50Z loke thinks the spec should be implemented _exactly_ as written. No exceptions... (hold my beer while I submit a patch to fix the implementation PROG2
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2017-09-18T05:57:57Z |3b|: (upgraded-array-element-type 'nil)=>T on (old version of) ccl here, so (make-array 0 :element-type nil) => #() instead of ""
2017-09-18T05:58:57Z loke: ABCL returns a string
2017-09-18T05:59:10Z |3b|: loke: don't forget to leave the limits at the lowest allowed values, like array-dimension-limit = 1024 :)
2017-09-18T05:59:32Z loke: |3b|: of course. Who do you take me for? Someone who wastes space? :-)
2017-09-18T05:59:53Z beach: loke: If you want to implement prog2 that way, I suggest you also erase the hard disk if AREF is given an object that is not an array.
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2017-09-18T06:00:29Z |3b|: that would be too nice... just erase 1 random bit somewhere on the hd
2017-09-18T06:00:41Z beach: Yeah, that's better.
2017-09-18T06:00:48Z loke: beach: Hmm... isn't that SVREF?
2017-09-18T06:01:47Z loke was about to suggest somethign silly with reagrds to charcter-fonts, but I now realise that that was dropped in CL
2017-09-18T06:01:50Z beach: loke: I didn't look at SVREF, but AREF takes an array, and the general rule is that the behavior is unspecified if that kind of restriction is violated.
2017-09-18T06:01:54Z loke: It was is CLtL2
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2017-09-18T06:02:38Z beach: I'll fix that problem in WSCL.
2017-09-18T06:02:55Z loke: beach: Yes. I guess you're right... I was thinking that SVREF had some special provisions for that, but it appears that CL doesn't say anything about wrong types being bassed to any functions.
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2017-09-18T06:03:25Z loke: Anyway, in CLtL2, a characer can have a "font" property. That property is just an integer.
2017-09-18T06:03:28Z beach: It does say that.  It says that the behavior is unspecified (or perhaps undefined).
2017-09-18T06:03:35Z loke: Does anyone know where that came from? The lisp machines?
2017-09-18T06:03:49Z loke: beach: Right.
2017-09-18T06:04:10Z jack_rabbit: I'm not too familiar with the ANSI organization, so it's possible this question includes some incorrect assumptions. I know that committes for lanugages like C release a new standard for their languages every decade or so, but Common Lisp seems not to have. What is the status of the Common Lisp standard committee?
2017-09-18T06:04:26Z loke: jack_rabbit: It doesn't exist, AFAIK.
2017-09-18T06:05:49Z beach: jack_rabbit: You are entirely free to set up such a committee.
2017-09-18T06:06:30Z jack_rabbit: That was my next question. :) But there must be people at ANSI who determine the legitimacy of such a committee, no?
2017-09-18T06:06:38Z beach: No.
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2017-09-18T06:07:19Z beach: I mean, "yes", in that ANSI can refuse to make such a committee an official ANSI committee.
2017-09-18T06:07:24Z jack_rabbit: For instance, if I *did* set up such a committee, my standard would likely be a total disaster. Could I still push that through as CLtL3?
2017-09-18T06:07:32Z jack_rabbit: Right.
2017-09-18T06:07:42Z loke: Different standard organisations have different rules as well... ANSI is just the US standars body. Every countr has their own, and then there other other, global standards bodies like ISO or IEEE.
2017-09-18T06:08:00Z beach: jack_rabbit: You could always find a different standardization organization.
2017-09-18T06:08:21Z beach: jack_rabbit: In fact, you would also start your own standardization organization.
2017-09-18T06:09:00Z beach: There is nothing special with, say, ISO.
2017-09-18T06:09:03Z jack_rabbit: Ok. So it is democratized it the sense that its success or failure would largely depend on who, if anyone, actually used/implemented it.
2017-09-18T06:09:04Z loke: Pick one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technical_standard_organisations
2017-09-18T06:09:12Z beach: Call yours IOS, for example.
2017-09-18T06:09:25Z jack_rabbit: haha
2017-09-18T06:09:56Z beach: loke: Nice!
2017-09-18T06:13:46Z loke: Is looking through that list, I was reminded of the existence of OMG.
2017-09-18T06:14:14Z loke: Have they come up with anything useful, ever? (except CORBA, which was useful for a moment in history)
2017-09-18T06:14:48Z jack_rabbit: So close to COBRA
2017-09-18T06:15:06Z jack_rabbit: Think of all the neat graphics that could have been.
2017-09-18T06:15:50Z loke: http://www.omg.org/spec/LISP/
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2017-09-18T06:16:30Z jack_rabbit: nice
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2017-09-18T09:04:50Z mfiano: Hello
2017-09-18T09:05:45Z mfiano: Does anyone know why Emacs/paredit insists on indenting the documentation strings of these two defgeneric forms differently on M-q? The second paragraphs are inconsistent. https://files.lispcoder.net/images/screenshots/img-20170918045634.png
2017-09-18T09:07:27Z jackdaniel: mfiano: it is not paredit but emacs, if you indent two first lines of the paragraph to the left, then the rest will follow
2017-09-18T09:07:37Z jackdaniel: if one is to the left, then it doesn't line them up
2017-09-18T09:07:49Z jackdaniel: I've noticed that same applies to docstrings
2017-09-18T09:08:03Z mfiano: Hmm, why are they different?
2017-09-18T09:08:17Z loke: You shouldn't indent docstrings.
2017-09-18T09:08:34Z mfiano: I'm not. I'm indenting the function.
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2017-09-18T09:08:52Z mfiano: It wraps at the fill column differently for these 2 docstrings.
2017-09-18T09:09:02Z loke: mfiano: It should leave the string alone, unless you are inside the string when typing M-q
2017-09-18T09:09:41Z jackdaniel: try removinng two spaces before functionality in first docstring and do M-q after that (still havinng cursor in docstring)
2017-09-18T09:09:57Z jackdaniel: you'll see that indent will be the same as for the second generic
2017-09-18T09:10:12Z mfiano: Yes, I am. I would like the string to be justified consistently. I am wondering what is causing that outdenting of the first line of the second paragraph in the first form.
2017-09-18T09:11:01Z jackdaniel: I'd say initial shape of docstring, not defgeneric or anything else causes different wrapping
2017-09-18T09:11:54Z mfiano: That does solve it. I've just never seen this before.
2017-09-18T09:12:01Z mfiano: Thanks though :)
2017-09-18T09:12:09Z jackdaniel: heh
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2017-09-18T12:05:09Z jackdaniel: (oczywiscie zart, kontekst jest taki, ze #xD to adres cache)
2017-09-18T12:05:18Z jackdaniel: whops, not here
2017-09-18T12:05:46Z fe[nl]ix: tak
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2017-09-18T12:09:03Z Xach: x
2017-09-18T12:09:03Z minion: Xach, memo from phoe: https://github.com/phoe/fox5/blob/6d8f73882be6ddaf1f94d9a89153a38f1b0160fc/skippy.lisp
2017-09-18T12:11:17Z Xach: phoe: if i were doing it, i would make an object that was adjacent to the gif that produced rendered frames for a given image number.
2017-09-18T12:11:29Z Xach: and use gif data stream accessors to get the other data
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2017-09-18T12:23:17Z knobo: Is there any library to import excel data in to lisp?
2017-09-18T12:23:43Z jackdaniel: cl-csv for csv files (excel can export that)
2017-09-18T12:24:17Z knobo: jackdaniel: best answer so far :)
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2017-09-18T12:32:58Z Xach: knobo: there is something new
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2017-09-18T12:33:11Z Xach: knobo: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cungil/xlsx
2017-09-18T12:34:05Z knobo: Xach: now I don't feel so stupid for asking anyway :)
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2017-09-18T12:55:07Z dim: it used to be that you could export excel files to DBF format, which is better than CSV (anything would be better than CSV), and cl-db3 could then be used
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2017-09-18T15:04:33Z phoe: I have a variable which is a list of symbols, *foo* ;=> (BAR BAZ QUUX).
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2017-09-18T15:05:02Z phoe: How can I DEFTYPE a type that is `(member ,@*foo*)?
2017-09-18T15:05:21Z Bike: (deftype mytype () `(member ,@*foo*))?
2017-09-18T15:05:27Z Bike: or do you mean you want *foo* to be changeable.
2017-09-18T15:05:35Z phoe: No, I want *foo* to be constant.
2017-09-18T15:05:48Z phoe: changeable would probably imply a SATISFIES type.
2017-09-18T15:05:51Z Bike: oh, well, just like i said then.
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2017-09-18T15:06:00Z phoe: Okay - thanks. I wasn't sure about it.
2017-09-18T15:06:15Z Bike: Of course, it will expand anew every time you use it.
2017-09-18T15:06:26Z Bike: so remember to actually enforce that the variable's constant or problems will happen.
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2017-09-18T15:07:01Z Bike: you could also do like, (eval `(deftype mytype () (member ,@*foo*))), but blech.
2017-09-18T15:07:17Z dim: #. *foo* somehow?
2017-09-18T15:07:32Z phoe: oh
2017-09-18T15:07:39Z phoe: hm
2017-09-18T15:07:57Z phoe: #.(cons 'member *foo*) ?
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2017-09-18T15:09:02Z phoe: (deftype color () '#.`(member ,*color-types*))
2017-09-18T15:09:09Z phoe: this is the most crazy single line of Lisp I've read this week
2017-09-18T15:09:17Z phoe: worse - not just read, but I wrote that
2017-09-18T15:10:34Z Bike: too bad this isn't the first time i've seen #.`
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2017-09-18T15:14:03Z jackdaniel: (deftype color () (quote #.(list 'member *color-types*)))
2017-09-18T15:14:13Z jackdaniel: there is no need to stick to idioms at all cost ;)
2017-09-18T15:14:29Z shka: 1+ to what jackdaniel wrote
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2017-09-18T15:14:56Z phoe: jackdaniel: I actually find what you did much less readable
2017-09-18T15:15:04Z phoe: also, list* I think
2017-09-18T15:15:05Z jackdaniel: then keep looking ;
2017-09-18T15:15:20Z phoe: :(
2017-09-18T15:15:24Z jackdaniel: ;)
2017-09-18T15:15:27Z shka: classic :D
2017-09-18T15:16:23Z shka REALLY can't help to read that with voice of Rick from RnM
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2017-09-18T15:23:58Z Natblida: How did you learn lisp? If you can recall the exact process.
2017-09-18T15:24:25Z dlowe: I wrote lots of terrible lisp.
2017-09-18T15:24:27Z Bike: wrote a lot of stupid programs, then progressively made them less stupid, until today when i have only kinda-dumb programs.
2017-09-18T15:24:28Z _death: you could also just use load-time-value
2017-09-18T15:24:41Z dlowe: same as you learn anything.
2017-09-18T15:25:11Z Natblida: What resources did you use? Was it your first programming language?
2017-09-18T15:25:28Z flip214: what's the trick to make READ-LINE return a BASE-STRING? I've tried :external-format and :element-type on OPEN, but without success.
2017-09-18T15:26:51Z phoe: clhs read-line
2017-09-18T15:26:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm
2017-09-18T15:27:17Z phoe: I think you'll need a coerce to be absolutely sure
2017-09-18T15:27:24Z iqubic: Lisp is weird. But s-exprs are the greatest.
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2017-09-18T15:27:43Z phoe: actually sexprs are decent, and Lisp is very nice
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2017-09-18T15:28:17Z flip214: phoe: I guess you want to point me to that part:  > The primary value, line, is the line that is read, represented as a string
2017-09-18T15:28:38Z flip214: yeah, probably I won't get a BASE-STRING back. thanks, will COERCE it.
2017-09-18T15:28:39Z Natblida: phoe, okay you tell me.
2017-09-18T15:28:49Z beach: Natblida: Why do you ask these questions?  Are you planning to learn Common Lisp/
2017-09-18T15:29:06Z beach: ?
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2017-09-18T15:29:41Z Natblida: beach, yes.
2017-09-18T15:29:58Z beach: Then it would be more appropriate to ask for advice relative to your situation.
2017-09-18T15:30:04Z beach: Do you already know a programming language?
2017-09-18T15:30:07Z beach: If so which?
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2017-09-18T15:31:44Z Natblida: beach, I understand the way programs work but I don't know the semantics of any language very much. In other words I don't know any language. A little bit of c and python, not something I'm proud of though.
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2017-09-18T15:32:29Z beach: In your situation, people sometimes recommend "Gentle".
2017-09-18T15:32:37Z beach: minion: Please tell Natblida about gentle
2017-09-18T15:32:37Z minion: Natblida: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2017-09-18T15:33:13Z beach: Natblida: If you know some programming, the usual recommendation is PCL.
2017-09-18T15:33:18Z beach: minion: Please tell Natblida about PCL.
2017-09-18T15:33:19Z minion: Natblida: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-09-18T15:33:19Z jackdaniel: Natblida: if you feel more like doing things (instead of learning the basics), you could jump into PCL
2017-09-18T15:33:23Z jackdaniel: oh, that
2017-09-18T15:34:08Z flip214: I quite liked reading SICP, and doing the exercises in Common Lisp instead... although that's one more hoop to jump through
2017-09-18T15:34:10Z beach: Natblida: Most people here recommend you use one of the major free Common Lisp implementations, and that you install and use SLIME with GNU Emacs.
2017-09-18T15:34:10Z shrdlu68: Natblida: http://landoflisp.com/
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2017-09-18T15:36:20Z Natblida: The thing with me is I've tried in the past on many programming courses online, like Harvard's CS50 which uses "C". But I get hooked up on the fine details, like how it actually works on a hardware level, things like that. That's a bad way to learn something I think.
2017-09-18T15:36:46Z beach: Natblida: I know very well what you mean.
2017-09-18T15:36:59Z beach: Natblida: Very few books will tell you about that.
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2017-09-18T15:37:19Z beach: Natblida: I recommend you read assembly output from the compiler.  I learn a lot that way.
2017-09-18T15:37:30Z flip214: Natblida: perhaps learning from the bottom up would help you, then, as these parts would already be clear and you wouldn't get distracted that much?!
2017-09-18T15:37:41Z shrdlu68: Natblida: Learning some assembly might be what you need, in that case.
2017-09-18T15:37:41Z flip214: though the race to the bottom is ... bottomless.
2017-09-18T15:37:56Z beach: Natblida: It requires knowledge about assembly and about computer architecture.
2017-09-18T15:38:09Z flip214: CPU, then logic gates, transistors, FETs, ... if you go _really_ down the architectural ladder.
2017-09-18T15:38:28Z iqubic: Has anyone written a Lisp to assembly compiler?
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2017-09-18T15:38:43Z jackdaniel: iqubic: most Common Lisp implementations compile to assembly
2017-09-18T15:38:43Z beach: iqubic: Yes.  Or more likely, to native code.
2017-09-18T15:38:48Z jackdaniel: directly or indirectly
2017-09-18T15:38:59Z beach: iqubic: What jackdaniel said.
2017-09-18T15:39:05Z iqubic: Is assembly hard to learn?
2017-09-18T15:39:11Z varjag: no
2017-09-18T15:39:14Z varjag: it's hard to use
2017-09-18T15:39:16Z jackdaniel: no, but it's not the most efficient way of programming
2017-09-18T15:39:18Z shrdlu68: Nope.
2017-09-18T15:39:36Z shrdlu68: It's actually quite interesting and fun.
2017-09-18T15:39:37Z Natblida: beach, Thank you. I just wanna know what your process has been so far. Like how you started, how, etc.
2017-09-18T15:39:49Z larsen: Natblida: my (general) advice is to pick a project and complete it. this way: you have to learn a set of techniques that are likely to empower you doing different, possibly more complex/bigger things. you end up having a significant codebase that you can review while you learn more of the language (something that often doesn't happen with abstract exercises)
2017-09-18T15:39:53Z iqubic: Can I use assembly to make GUIs and such?
2017-09-18T15:39:59Z varjag: yes
2017-09-18T15:40:00Z beach: Natblida: The way I learned Lisp will not help you one little bit.
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2017-09-18T15:40:22Z varjag: in the sense you can also commute daily on pogo stick
2017-09-18T15:40:25Z Natblida: beach, try me.
2017-09-18T15:40:36Z beach: *sigh*
2017-09-18T15:40:48Z pjb: iqubic: it's definitely a good idea to learn how to write a small program in assembler.
2017-09-18T15:40:59Z iqubic: I'm learning lisp with PCL and trying things out in SLIME
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2017-09-18T15:41:26Z Natblida: larsen, flip214, shrdlu68, thank you you guys.
2017-09-18T15:41:32Z iqubic: Why do people use car and cdr if first and rest exist?
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2017-09-18T15:41:43Z pjb: iqubic: some processors are more fun to program than others, but it doesn't matter: you'll write only one application in assembler, for a life-long lesson.
2017-09-18T15:41:52Z jackdaniel: iqubic: because not all cons-based structures are lists
2017-09-18T15:42:03Z jackdaniel: if you access cons, then car and cdr are appropriate
2017-09-18T15:42:10Z pjb: iqubic: first/rest/endp means list.  car/cdr/null means any kind of structured based on conses.
2017-09-18T15:42:15Z iqubic: Also, why is it important to know about con cells?
2017-09-18T15:42:34Z pjb: because it's the basic building bloc for lists and other kind of structures based on conses
2017-09-18T15:42:36Z jackdaniel: it is not, just legacy stuff and people who use them
2017-09-18T15:42:43Z jackdaniel: if you read programs it's worth to know how to read them
2017-09-18T15:43:21Z iqubic: What cons structures are not lists? Trees?
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2017-09-18T15:43:34Z jackdaniel: they may represent trees, yes
2017-09-18T15:43:41Z pjb: you can make anything with them.  trees, vectors, arrays, structures, objects, whatever.
2017-09-18T15:43:45Z Natblida: beach, huh?
2017-09-18T15:43:51Z iqubic: But a tree is just a list of lists.
2017-09-18T15:43:59Z pjb: iqubic: graphs!
2017-09-18T15:44:03Z iqubic: So not that.
2017-09-18T15:44:08Z pjb: double-linked lists, etc.
2017-09-18T15:44:26Z pjb: iqubic: depends on how you define list.
2017-09-18T15:44:26Z iqubic: Does CL support those?
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2017-09-18T15:44:42Z pjb: iqubic: in lisp, there are 3 kinds of lists: proper-lists, dotted-lists, and circular-lists.
2017-09-18T15:45:17Z iqubic: I only know about the kind that the list function gives you
2017-09-18T15:45:18Z pjb: iqubic: CL is Turing Complete: it supports EVERYTHING!
2017-09-18T15:45:37Z pjb: Somebody needs to learn about Zippy… http://www.zippythepinhead.com
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2017-09-18T15:46:34Z White_Flame: iqubic: cons cells are just 2-tuples.  when you treat them like that, "first" and "rest" dont' fit the usage anymore
2017-09-18T15:46:47Z White_Flame: they just have 2 slots, named car & cdr
2017-09-18T15:47:20Z White_Flame: and besides, those words are shorter than first & rest :)
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2017-09-18T15:51:51Z shka: beach uses car and cdr when cons cell is not used as list
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2017-09-18T15:52:32Z Natblida: Any rocket programmers here? What does it take?
2017-09-18T15:52:37Z pjb: iqubic: cons cells don't matter. What matter is the functional abstractions you write above them!
2017-09-18T15:53:07Z shka: otherwise first and rest
2017-09-18T15:53:21Z shka: pjb: nothin matters
2017-09-18T15:53:35Z pjb: (defun point (x y) (cons x y)) (defun x (pt) (car pt)) (defun y (pt) (car pt))    (defun rat (num denum) (cons num denum)) (defun num (rat) (car rat)) (defun denum (rat) (cdr rat))
2017-09-18T15:54:35Z pjb: (defun pt+ (p1 p2) (point (+ (x p1) (x p2)) (+ (y p1) (y p2))))  (defun rat+ (r1 r2) (rat (+ (* (num r1) (denum r2)) (* (num r2) (denum r1))) (* (denum r1) (denum r2))))
2017-09-18T15:56:40Z pjb: (list  (pt+ (point 1 0) (point 0 2))  (rat+ (rat 2 3) (rat 4 5))) #| --> ((1 . 2) (22 . 15)) |#
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2017-09-18T16:32:47Z anon999: how can I negate all array elements with map-into?
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2017-09-18T16:34:44Z beach: clhs map-into
2017-09-18T16:34:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm
2017-09-18T16:34:53Z beach: anon999: Did the Common Lisp HyperSpec page not make sense?
2017-09-18T16:35:26Z beach: anon999: It must be a vector, i.e., a 1-dimensional array.
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2017-09-18T16:38:25Z anon999: is there a different way to negate an array?
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2017-09-18T16:38:40Z beach: Yes, of course.  You can use LOOP.
2017-09-18T16:39:08Z beach: anon999: So you have an array that is not a vector?
2017-09-18T16:39:30Z anon999: i have a 2 dimensional array that i displace
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2017-09-18T16:39:51Z beach: If you create a vector displaced to that array, you can use map-into.
2017-09-18T16:40:16Z beach: But it is probably easier just to use a nested LOOP.
2017-09-18T16:42:09Z pjb: (let ((array (make-array '(4 3) :initial-contents '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9) (10 11 12)))))  (let ((v (make-array (reduce (function *) (array-dimensions array)) :displaced-to array))) (map-into v (function -) v))  array) #| --> #2A((-1 -2 -3) (-4 -5 -6) (-7 -8 -9) (-10 -11 -12)) |#
2017-09-18T16:42:30Z pjb: Not if you don't know the rank or dimensions of the array…
2017-09-18T16:43:23Z beach: "<anon999> i have a 2 dimensional array that i displace"
2017-09-18T16:44:15Z Bike: if you don't know the rank you can just use array-total-size and row-major-aref anyway.
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2017-09-18T17:41:46Z some-user: hello
2017-09-18T17:42:01Z phoe: hey some-user
2017-09-18T17:44:10Z some-user: how can i log and ignore condition in around method? (handler-case (call-next-method) (bla () (log))) interrupts chain of around methods
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2017-09-18T17:45:38Z some-user: also Fare do you know if there is a video recording of recent icfp talk about gerbil scheme?
2017-09-18T17:46:34Z Bike: What do you mean "ignore"?
2017-09-18T17:46:43Z pjb: some-user: you will have to handle conditions in each method!
2017-09-18T17:46:44Z Bike: Do you mean you want outer around methods to be able to handle it?
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2017-09-18T17:47:54Z some-user: Bike: well, return nil for example
2017-09-18T17:48:04Z Bike: return nil from what
2017-09-18T17:48:12Z Bike: the around method with this handler case?
2017-09-18T17:49:11Z some-user: Bike: ohh, you're right that doesn't make sense i have to handle exception in the method itself and not in :around method of that method
2017-09-18T17:50:13Z some-user: i thought that one could push error handling in around method(of foo methods e.g) and when something happens in the foo then around method will handle it
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2017-09-18T17:51:54Z some-user: just wanted to add unobtrusive logging of exceptions i don't need to *handle*(returning nil from "foo" is fine)
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2017-09-18T17:54:38Z some-user: pjb: but why? if i have handler-case in innermost around method than why it's not enough?
2017-09-18T17:55:04Z shrdlu68: (handler-case (meh) (condition () nil))
2017-09-18T17:55:20Z pjb: Because if there's a non-local exit before you call the next method, then the chain of around methods will be broken.
2017-09-18T17:56:05Z pjb: you will have to write all your methods as: (defmethod m (…) (handler-case … …) (call-next-method) (handler-case … …))  to be sure that the chain is not broken.
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2017-09-18T17:57:46Z some-user: pjb: so that's impossible to have one around method for exception logging without inserting any exception handling logic in concerte methods and at same time have other around methods working?
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2017-09-18T17:58:28Z Bike: I think we should clarify what you mean by "working.
2017-09-18T17:59:13Z some-user: Bike: executing past the point of their (call-next-method), one sec let me write a gist to clarify
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2017-09-18T18:03:30Z some-user: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ad6de494030a5c62476acd2bce38156e
2017-09-18T18:03:36Z some-user: Bike: pjb
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2017-09-18T18:05:05Z Bike: uh... pretty sure it ought to, actually?
2017-09-18T18:05:15Z Bike: no, wait.
2017-09-18T18:05:41Z Bike: no, right. so, first the b :around is called. that calls the a :around, which calls the b primary.
2017-09-18T18:06:07Z Bike: that signals a condition, which is handled by the b :around, which returns.
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2017-09-18T18:06:56Z Bike: if you want the a :around to retain some control, you need to do unwind-protect or otherwise like what pjb said.
2017-09-18T18:07:26Z Bike: It's nothing particular to :around, it's just that you signaled something, and then handled it farther outside than you wanted.
2017-09-18T18:07:41Z some-user: Bike: cool, unwind-protect should probably do it
2017-09-18T18:09:08Z some-user: yeah, for some reason i thought that primary method is executed by b :around not a :around
2017-09-18T18:09:23Z some-user: Bike: thanks for explaining it!
2017-09-18T18:10:31Z Bike: i had to look up the order, i admit.
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2017-09-18T18:14:30Z some-user: does anyone know if there is a recoding of https://icfp17.sigplan.org/track/scheme-2017#program ?
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2017-09-18T18:26:44Z _rumbler31: Bike: what did you read to resolve the order that the methods are resolved?
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2017-09-18T18:28:01Z Bike: clhs 7.6.6.2
2017-09-18T18:28:01Z specbot: Standard Method Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm
2017-09-18T18:29:09Z _rumbler31: ty
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2017-09-18T19:22:20Z Fare: some-user: probably is. I need to send the rushes to Arthur G...
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2017-09-18T19:53:44Z francogrex: i remember that some people were "working" still on paul dietz's ansi tests (refining etc). do you know whether it's true or had i imagined it?
2017-09-18T19:55:56Z Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/commits/master judge for yourself
2017-09-18T19:57:35Z francogrex: well well... good to know!
2017-09-18T20:06:31Z phoe: A question about STATIC-VECTORS. What is the idiomatic way of copying a Lisp vector of uint8 into a static vector?
2017-09-18T20:06:50Z phoe: Preferably in form of (with-static-vector-from-lisp-vector (v *vector*) ...)
2017-09-18T20:06:57Z phoe: where *vector* is a Lisp vector.
2017-09-18T20:07:18Z phoe: Oh wait, I can supply INITIAL-CONTENTS to MAKE-STATIC-VECTOR.
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2017-09-18T20:14:24Z phoe: Why does MAKE-STATIC-VECTOR have :INITIAL-CONTENTS but WITH-STATIC-VECTOR does not?
2017-09-18T20:21:19Z |3b| usually just uses replace
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2017-09-19T00:03:02Z incal: I'm trying to get started with SDL2 and CL with SBCL, after loading the components with quicklisp it says I should run an example like this, (sdl2-examples:basic-test), however the debugger says "debugger invoked on a BORDEAUX-THREADS::BORDEAUX-MP-CONDITION:
2017-09-19T00:03:02Z incal:   There is no thread support in this instance." - I Googled it and it doesn't seem to be too closely connected to SDL (?)
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2017-09-19T00:04:55Z Bike: sounds like your sbcl was built without thread support
2017-09-19T00:05:00Z Bike: which you might need for SDL
2017-09-19T00:05:04Z incal: aha
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2017-09-19T00:05:28Z incal: is there some other implementation you know of that handles this out of the box?
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2017-09-19T00:05:42Z Bike: sbcl does, it just has to be the right box.
2017-09-19T00:06:03Z incal: let's check out the repos again...
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2017-09-19T00:06:10Z Bike: did you build sbcl yourself?
2017-09-19T00:07:15Z incal: no, I got it from the repos. There is pack I don't have tho that sounds interesting, cl-clx-sbcl, "X11 CL client lib for SBCL"
2017-09-19T00:07:29Z Bike: probably don't need that for SDL
2017-09-19T00:07:47Z Bike: if your repo isn't cooperative, maybe try CCL? it might be built properly
2017-09-19T00:07:54Z incal: ok there is only one sbcl, let's hear what they say
2017-09-19T00:08:39Z incal: version "SBCL 1.2.4.debian"
2017-09-19T00:10:14Z |3b|: that's pretty old, it isn't too hard to build sbcl from source, then you get threads and a current version
2017-09-19T00:10:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: incal: Using a package manager?
2017-09-19T00:10:53Z incal: aptitude
2017-09-19T00:11:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: Debian?
2017-09-19T00:11:12Z incal: Raspbian, Debian fork
2017-09-19T00:11:25Z |3b|: linux distro packages tend to be a bad idea in general though, not enough lisp users to get well-maintained packages into distros :(
2017-09-19T00:11:52Z incal: ok, so compile SBCL manually?
2017-09-19T00:12:29Z |3b|: yeah, keep your distro version for now (to use for manual build)
2017-09-19T00:12:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: |3b|: Majority of new stuff seems to be done through language specific package managers pip/gems/quicklisp. It's kind of a pain.
2017-09-19T00:12:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess it's better than everything getting updated always every time.
2017-09-19T00:13:24Z |3b|: actually, raspbian is arm, isn't it? 32 bit?
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2017-09-19T00:13:39Z |3b| isn't sure arm sbcl has thread support
2017-09-19T00:14:08Z Petit_Dejeuner thinks he had to go through all this once several years ago.
2017-09-19T00:14:29Z incal: arm
2017-09-19T00:14:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: I ended up installing some lisp from source because I couldn't get others to work or others wouldn't support arm.
2017-09-19T00:14:56Z |3b|: yeah, i think sbcl only supports threads on arm for 64bit, not 32
2017-09-19T00:15:26Z incal: OK, well "good news" anyway, that explains it
2017-09-19T00:15:42Z |3b|: so building sbcl from source won't help with that part, though i'd argue sdl2 should work without it anyway
2017-09-19T00:16:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: '64 bit arm' Weird, I thought regular arm was 32 bit isntructions and 16 bit half words with the thumb extension.
2017-09-19T00:16:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm stuck in the past.
2017-09-19T00:16:39Z incal: who isn't
2017-09-19T00:16:44Z |3b|: yeah, they added a 64bit version at some point
2017-09-19T00:17:19Z |3b|: if it is armv7, you could try ccl https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter2.2.html#obtaining-ccl
2017-09-19T00:17:30Z incal: armv7
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2017-09-19T00:18:54Z incal: OK I try: ccl-1.7-linuxarm.tar.gz
2017-09-19T00:23:25Z incal: "CPU doesn't support required features"
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2017-09-19T00:24:53Z incal: man, why does it have to be so complicated? maybe sdl2 on an R-Pi is a bad idea to begin with...
2017-09-19T00:26:10Z |3b|: what version pi?
2017-09-19T00:26:52Z |3b|: probably not a horrible idea, but might take a bit more work than an x8664 system, and not sure about performance
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2017-09-19T00:27:54Z incal: R-Pi 3 Model B
2017-09-19T00:28:27Z incal: I just want to draw boxes and move sprites around a canvas
2017-09-19T00:28:36Z |3b|: hmm, looks like that might have a 64bit cpu
2017-09-19T00:29:11Z incal: Linux raspberrypi 4.9.35-v7+ #1014 SMP Fri Jun 30 14:47:43 BST 2017 armv7l GNU/Linux
2017-09-19T00:30:14Z |3b|: try grabbing the arm64 binary from http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html and see if it runs
2017-09-19T00:31:38Z |3b|: untar it, then in the directory that creates, ./run-sbcl.sh
2017-09-19T00:34:50Z incal: (running SBCL from: .)
2017-09-19T00:34:51Z incal: ./src/runtime/sbcl: 2: ./src/runtime/sbcl: Syntax error: word unexpected (expecting ")")
2017-09-19T00:35:05Z incal: there is an install.sh script tho?
2017-09-19T00:35:29Z |3b|: don't run the install script unless it works :)
2017-09-19T00:35:35Z incal: it doesn't
2017-09-19T00:35:39Z |3b|: that was from running run-sbcl.sh ?
2017-09-19T00:35:45Z incal: yes
2017-09-19T00:36:09Z |3b|: ok, guess that idea won't work either :(
2017-09-19T00:37:04Z |3b|: so remaining options are try ecl, or fix cl-sdl2 to not need threads
2017-09-19T00:38:00Z incal: OK, I need a break after all setbacks, then I'll try ecl
2017-09-19T00:38:07Z incal: thanks for the efforts
2017-09-19T00:40:36Z incal: ecl is in the repos
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2017-09-19T01:31:25Z abel-abel: Hello! Moring!
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2017-09-19T01:32:07Z iqubic: Morning abel-abel
2017-09-19T01:32:59Z abel-abel: iqubic: Maybe it's midnight in your timezone?
2017-09-19T01:33:51Z iqubic: It  is always morning when a new person logs on.
2017-09-19T01:33:59Z iqubic: It the global irc time zone
2017-09-19T01:34:09Z abel-abel: :)
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2017-09-19T01:34:40Z iqubic: Since irc is used all over the work
2017-09-19T01:34:54Z iqubic: world timezones are pointless here.
2017-09-19T01:35:08Z abel-abel: yeah. :O
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2017-09-19T01:43:48Z aeth: good 2017-09-19T01:44Z
2017-09-19T01:44:07Z abel-abel: :P
2017-09-19T01:46:32Z aeth: the reader can assign their own meaning to the unambiguous facts
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2017-09-19T02:05:50Z incal: ecl which is version 13.5.1 cannot load quicklisp, /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lffi
2017-09-19T02:05:50Z incal: collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
2017-09-19T02:05:50Z incal:  
2017-09-19T02:05:50Z incal: Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR
2017-09-19T02:05:53Z incal: Error code 1 when executing
2017-09-19T02:05:56Z incal: (RUN-PROGRAM "gcc" ("-o" "/home/incal/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-13.5.1-unknown-linux-arm/home/incal/quicklisp/quicklisp/package-ASDF-TMP.fas" ...))
2017-09-19T02:06:22Z incal: I don't know if you need quicklisp for sdl2? but they say in the documentation it is the "easiest way"... well
2017-09-19T02:12:24Z pjb: incal: ecl is at version 16.1.2 at least.
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2017-09-19T03:07:53Z vtomole: clhs flet
2017-09-19T03:07:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
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2017-09-19T03:49:18Z vtomole: clhs integer
2017-09-19T03:49:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_intege.htm
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2017-09-19T04:18:09Z iqubic: Are there any lisp WMs out there?
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2017-09-19T04:19:42Z iqubic: As in, can be configured in lisp.
2017-09-19T04:20:11Z aeth: stumpwm
2017-09-19T04:20:30Z aeth: written in lisp
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2017-09-19T04:21:03Z iqubic: What do you configure it with? What language do you use?
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2017-09-19T04:21:21Z aeth: It is entirely written in Common Lisp
2017-09-19T04:21:31Z iqubic: And how does that interact with the hardware? Through X?
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2017-09-19T04:21:52Z aeth: Iirc, X is based on a client/server model (which is why you can e.g. ssh -X)
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2017-09-19T04:22:05Z aeth: So there is an X client written in CL
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2017-09-19T04:23:22Z iqubic: Yeah, that is what  I want. Got a link to that X client in CL?
2017-09-19T04:23:28Z jasom: clx is written entirely in CL
2017-09-19T04:23:44Z aeth: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx
2017-09-19T04:23:54Z aeth: And this is stumpwm. https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm
2017-09-19T04:24:07Z jasom: now we just need an X server written entirely in CL; any takers?
2017-09-19T04:24:24Z iqubic: LOL, just use exam
2017-09-19T04:24:39Z iqubic: It's WM for emacs
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2017-09-19T04:26:26Z loke: And then you have McCLIM that is a UI sytem built on CLX
2017-09-19T04:26:37Z loke: iqubic: Isn't it exwm?
2017-09-19T04:26:59Z iqubic: loke: blame autocorrect.
2017-09-19T04:27:01Z aeth: Most graphical CL applications do not use clx, though. qt, tk, and sdl are popular.
2017-09-19T04:27:24Z iqubic: I need to learn about graphical CL lobs.
2017-09-19T04:27:31Z iqubic: *libs
2017-09-19T04:28:03Z iqubic: I officially hate apple's autocorrect jow.
2017-09-19T04:28:14Z aeth: I was talking to a Lisper who used Lisp back in the day and he used tk, so I guess some things never change.
2017-09-19T04:28:52Z loke: iqubic: You are IRC'ing from a phone?
2017-09-19T04:29:01Z iqubic: My iPad actually.
2017-09-19T04:29:04Z loke: And an Iphone no less.
2017-09-19T04:29:30Z loke: OK, Ipad.
2017-09-19T04:29:34Z loke: What a nightmare.
2017-09-19T04:29:45Z iqubic: My laptop is in the shop for repair. So I have to use this until I can find time to get Linux onto my old desktop.
2017-09-19T04:30:14Z iqubic: Currently it will not boot at all. It needs a new hard drive and then it will work
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2017-09-19T05:08:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-19T06:34:54Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/ql2nix/tree/overlay < ~2400 lisp systems converted to nix expressions
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2017-09-19T06:36:12Z loke: jasom: What is nix?
2017-09-19T06:36:38Z loke: And why on earth would you want to convert the ASDF files? To something which is not even Lisp.
2017-09-19T06:37:41Z jasom: loke: it's a package manager (and also a distribution of linux based around it)
2017-09-19T06:38:02Z jasom: loke: nix handles things like dynamic library dependencies that asdf doesn't
2017-09-19T06:38:57Z loke: jasom: then it does a bad job, since cl-gss depends on krb5-user, which is not reflected in the file.
2017-09-19T06:39:42Z loke: cl-rabbit depends on librabbitmq-c
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2017-09-19T06:41:06Z jasom: loke: the cl-rabbit is definitely reflected
2017-09-19T06:41:25Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/ql2nix/blob/overlay/lisp_cl-rabbit.nix
2017-09-19T06:41:26Z loke: jasom: Where? I just looked at the file, and no mention of the native library dependency
2017-09-19T06:41:39Z loke: Oh wait. You're right
2017-09-19T06:41:45Z loke: I looked at the wrong file.
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2017-09-19T06:41:58Z loke: Still, cl-gss didn't work
2017-09-19T06:41:59Z jasom: yeah lisp-project_* are all just the source
2017-09-19T06:42:04Z loke: I presume you're doing this manually?
2017-09-19T06:42:22Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/ql2nix/blob/overlay/lisp_cl-gss.nix
2017-09-19T06:42:33Z jasom: semi-automated
2017-09-19T06:42:42Z loke: OK, that's better
2017-09-19T06:43:07Z jasom: Each time it can't find a library, I add a rule to map that library to package(s) in nix
2017-09-19T06:44:50Z jasom: and I had to patch some lisp packages (I plan on submitting those fixes upstream).  Most common issue is something like (:unix "/usr/lib/libfoo.so") where (:unix "libfoo.so") would work
2017-09-19T06:44:55Z loke: I think it would make morse sense to separate out the native library dependencies into its own “thing”. Then let QL handle things they way they always do.
2017-09-19T06:45:21Z loke: There are far too many issues with trying to leverage an OS package manage to handle Lisp libs.
2017-09-19T06:48:02Z jasom: this also caches the FASLs system-wide for most of the packages; whether that's a good or a bad thing is arguable.  I experimeted with image dumps, but those dont' compose
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2017-09-19T06:49:35Z loke: jasom: I see two issues with this:
2017-09-19T06:50:04Z loke: One is that having multiple installations is impossible. The seocnd is that very often you want to M-. into the library source and make a small change (for testing purposes, perhaps)
2017-09-19T06:50:41Z jasom: the first is a non-issue, the second is real.
2017-09-19T06:50:49Z loke: Third is that you might want to add your own system to replace a QL-delivered one. QL will simply resolve the dependencies and pick up the correct version automatically.
2017-09-19T06:52:03Z jasom: third is trivially solvable by overriding the lisp-project_foo expression; nix will see that the source changed and rebuild the system package(s)
2017-09-19T06:52:15Z jasom: but M-. and edit is made impossible by this
2017-09-19T06:54:06Z loke: jasom: "trivially". :-)
2017-09-19T06:54:41Z loke: WHat I'm saying is that it might be better to not try to make the package manager handle all the lisp libs, but rather just the externmal dependencies.
2017-09-19T06:54:59Z loke: Then perhaps one could build a way in which this can be declared in the ASDF file.
2017-09-19T06:55:16Z loke: This could then be made to work with multiple dostros.
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2017-09-19T07:03:29Z jasom: that would be nice, yes.  If anyone who want's to do the legwork of getting that information into ASD fiels or quicklisp  wants a list of .so file dependencies, I can generate that.
2017-09-19T07:03:35Z jasom: but for now I'm going to bed
2017-09-19T07:04:22Z loke: jasom: You got me thinking
2017-09-19T07:04:24Z loke: Thanks!
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2017-09-19T07:07:02Z Shinmera: Some years ago I was thinking about a library to wrap the OS package manager, to allow you to portably install system stuff. I gave up on it when I considered that lots of distributions have different names for the packages you might want, and keeping such a mapping database up-to-date would require a lot of manual labour.
2017-09-19T07:08:07Z Shinmera: Not to mention that some distributions might just not have the package at all, so if you wanted to be seamless you'd also have to include automated building of missing packages.
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2017-09-19T08:10:11Z hjudt: Shinmera: thanks for your corrections to the radiance tutorial, it is clearer now.
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2017-09-19T08:12:26Z hjudt: i have a question about error handling, though. if something goes wrong when calling an api endpoint, what is the proper way for the api to tell this? e.g. a request is malformed. shall the api answer with a specific http code and the error message as data payload?
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2017-09-19T08:16:35Z phoe: this is more of a HTTP question than a Lisp question, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HTTP_status_codes
2017-09-19T08:16:55Z phoe: tl;dr: sending 4xx means "you fucked up", sending 5xx means "I fucked up"
2017-09-19T08:17:01Z hjudt: phoe: thanks. i've also found this: http://blog.restcase.com/rest-api-error-codes-101/
2017-09-19T08:17:41Z hjudt: so i will send "you fucked up"
2017-09-19T08:17:52Z hjudt: ;-)
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2017-09-19T08:29:11Z kami: Good morning.
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2017-09-19T08:37:38Z phoe: Hello
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2017-09-19T08:48:05Z Shinmera: hjudt: For API endpoints it depends on whether the endpoint is accessed through the browser or through an application.
2017-09-19T08:48:22Z Shinmera: hjudt: In the former case, usually the appropriate response is a redirect to the previous page with an error message display.
2017-09-19T08:48:51Z Shinmera: hjudt: For the latter case, you should output an HTTP error code response and an object describing the error in the format appropriate for the API.
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2017-09-19T08:50:38Z Shinmera: hjudt: In Radiance, within a define-api endpoint, if you signal a condition of type api-error, it will automatically convert that to the proper response as I just described.
2017-09-19T08:51:23Z Shinmera: hjudt: Which is to say it will redirect or output an error object depending on whether the "browser" get/post var is set to "true".
2017-09-19T08:52:59Z Shinmera: hjudt: I believe the tutorial goes through some of that.
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2017-09-19T09:25:29Z hjudt: Shinmera: yes, the tutorial uses api-error, but in separate functions, so i was not sure about that. however, i see now that for request handling i need to distinguish between browser and applications. i am calling the api via js/ajax, so the api needs to return proper error objects.
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2017-09-19T09:29:28Z hjudt: Shinmera: what decides whether "browser" is set to "true"? because if i enter the url in my browser (firefox 55), it seems i will not get redirected.
2017-09-19T09:29:43Z Shinmera: it's a post/get parameter
2017-09-19T09:30:57Z hjudt: and it should be set automatically by the browser?
2017-09-19T09:31:10Z Shinmera: No, it should be set by you in your UI.
2017-09-19T09:31:23Z hjudt: ok. then that's the reason it doesn't work ;-)
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2017-09-19T09:32:36Z Shinmera: The tutorial covers this. https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-tutorial/blob/master/Part%202.md#editing-pastes----take-2
2017-09-19T09:32:46Z Shinmera: The forms always have a <input type="hidden" name="browser" value="true" />
2017-09-19T09:34:16Z hjudt: yes. i haven't quite read this in enough detail, and because i use javascript intensely, i probably won't need it.
2017-09-19T09:35:00Z Shinmera: I can't say I'm a fan of intense JS use.
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2017-09-19T09:35:11Z hjudt: so i probably only need to deal with getting the proper response json object, not with the redirects.
2017-09-19T09:35:54Z hjudt: what i like about it is dynamically loading data, so there are not many options other than js.
2017-09-19T09:36:09Z Shinmera: Can't say I'm a fan of dynamic loading either.
2017-09-19T09:36:14Z hjudt: why?
2017-09-19T09:36:39Z Shinmera: It makes sites slow and unresponsive, generates more requests, is bad for SEO, etc.
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2017-09-19T09:38:50Z hjudt: i agree with that it generates more requests, but i can't say it makes the sites slower, actually for my use-case it's more the opposite. but it really depends very much on the use-case i think.
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2017-09-19T10:50:08Z hjudt: Shinmera: another question regarding api-error: is it ok and intended that if i use (api-error), the server responds with 200 ok (header) but JSON status 500 in the response?
2017-09-19T10:51:26Z hjudt: this is not the case when the request was "malformed", e.g. parameter missing
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2017-09-19T10:52:32Z Shinmera: hjudt: I don't believe I ever explicitly specified the behaviour, so I can't say if it's wrong. I think the reason why it doesn't automatically set a code other than 200 is that it can't necessarily know which code would be appropriate.
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2017-09-19T10:52:48Z Shinmera: hjudt: I can't remember what my rationale was, or if it should be changed.
2017-09-19T10:52:52Z Shinmera: hjudt: I'll think about it some more.
2017-09-19T10:54:05Z Shinmera: The 500 error code in the message body is more of a kludge I'm pretty sure.
2017-09-19T10:54:38Z hjudt: i believe jolokia (see jolokia.org) does something similar. it returns 200 ok, but the resulting json data can tell something different, reflecting the result of the operation.
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2017-09-19T10:54:58Z Shinmera: Well, it's the web, so there's a lot of different ways of going about it :)
2017-09-19T10:55:19Z Shinmera: Some set the HTTP code, some include an extra header, some put it into the body.
2017-09-19T10:55:50Z hjudt currently reading http://blog.restcase.com/rest-api-error-codes-101/ again...
2017-09-19T10:57:01Z Shinmera: One reason to prefer 200 is because other codes will cause AJAX requests to trigger the fail callback, even though it's not a network error, really.
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2017-09-19T11:01:58Z hjudt: is the fail callback explicitly constrained to network errors?
2017-09-19T11:02:18Z Shinmera: No, but it's nice if you don't have to bother parsing the body if the fail callback hits.
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2017-09-19T11:02:44Z Shinmera: Makes the handling a bit simpler since you can constrain body logic to the success callback.
2017-09-19T11:05:01Z hjudt: which on the other hand moves part the dealing-with-errors logic into the success callback...
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2017-09-19T11:06:04Z Shinmera: errors can happen anywhere
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2017-09-19T11:12:15Z hjudt: ok, i'm fine with that
2017-09-19T11:13:17Z Shinmera: Anyway, you can make a case for either of the strategies. The only important part is that you're internally consistent in the end.
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2017-09-19T11:30:21Z hjudt: the way it is isn't bad
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2017-09-19T11:50:22Z trocado: hi! anyway of making this work?: (defparameter op :collect) (loop for i from 1 upto 10 op i)
2017-09-19T11:50:51Z Bike: nope.
2017-09-19T11:50:58Z Bike: you could do it at macroexpansion time.
2017-09-19T11:51:02Z trocado: ok hehe
2017-09-19T11:51:17Z Shinmera: You could also put it there at read-time.
2017-09-19T11:51:31Z Shinmera: But either way it won't be run-time changeable.
2017-09-19T11:51:31Z trocado: how do I do that?
2017-09-19T11:51:41Z trocado: ah ok
2017-09-19T11:51:46Z Bike: or i guess if you really really wanted you could do like (loop for i from 1 upto 10 if (eq op :collect) collect i else if (eq op :append) append i ...)
2017-09-19T11:52:47Z trocado: Bike: yes, I'll do something like that. thanks!
2017-09-19T11:53:10Z Bike: why do you want to do this, exactly...?
2017-09-19T11:53:42Z _death: or you could try writing it using a more functional (in the high-order-functions sense) approach
2017-09-19T11:53:52Z trocado: i want to have the same function collect or count depending on what's passed as a keyword
2017-09-19T11:54:13Z Shinmera: That doesn't really explain why.
2017-09-19T11:54:32Z trocado: instead of two identical functions that only differ on the accumulator
2017-09-19T11:54:58Z _death: sometimes the use of loop obscures a more general solution
2017-09-19T11:55:11Z trocado: because if i count the results of the collecting function it takes an unnecessary amount of time
2017-09-19T11:56:02Z Shinmera: If performance really is an issue, just dupe the loop or function.
2017-09-19T11:57:06Z trocado: Shinmera: ok, that's always a choice...
2017-09-19T11:57:14Z Bike: yeah, having separate functions would be more efficient. the way i wrote it it would check the keyword on every iteration, which is obviously pointless.
2017-09-19T11:57:29Z Bike: unless the compiler is smart enough to move the check out, in which case it's just doing the two separate versions for you.
2017-09-19T11:57:43Z Shinmera: branch prediction would hopefully lessen the impact of that check, but either way.
2017-09-19T11:59:07Z trocado: i'll just keep both functions then, and worry about something else. :)
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2017-09-19T13:17:50Z Xach: OK
2017-09-19T13:18:23Z Xach: (progn (rename-file "foo.txt" "bar") (probe-file "bar")) => NIL
2017-09-19T13:18:39Z Xach: if you construct "bar" with :unspecific as a type, it creates just "bar"
2017-09-19T13:18:45Z Xach: however, :unspecific is not supported on clisp
2017-09-19T13:22:37Z Shinmera: uiop has a probe-file* with a clisp clause. Might be worth it to decipher that to see if it has a solution.
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2017-09-19T13:25:52Z pjb: :type must be NIL, not :unspecific.  (open (make-pathname :name "foo" :type nil) :if-does-not-exist :create :direction :probe) (probe-file (make-pathname :name "foo" :type nil))  -> #P"/Users/pjb/works/synth/current-midi-transform/foo"
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2017-09-19T13:26:38Z Xach: that's because of a different issue, where clisp won't probe directories. i think.
2017-09-19T13:26:57Z Xach: i'm referring more to the merging behavior in rename-file, where it merges the target with the source to produce the real target.
2017-09-19T13:27:17Z Shinmera: Oh I see.
2017-09-19T13:27:22Z Xach: which is a defensibly handy thing to do, but not what i want in this case.
2017-09-19T13:27:55Z pjb: The thing is that rename-file will just use merge-pathnames which fills in components that are NIL with the original value.
2017-09-19T13:28:18Z pjb: This let you change just one component: (rename-file path #P".bak")
2017-09-19T13:29:20Z pjb: Yes, cl:probe-file is not specified to work on directories.
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2017-09-19T13:34:22Z Xach: Hmm, I wonder if it is even possible to do what I want with clisp.
2017-09-19T13:35:22Z Shinmera: Could call out to the C rename, heh.
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2017-09-19T13:57:29Z pjb: Xach to remove the type? If you accept the dot, it's possible. (progn (rename-file "foo.txt" "bar") (probe-file "bar."))
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2017-09-19T14:03:10Z pjb: Otherwise indeed, you'll have to use POSIX APIs.
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2017-09-19T14:43:54Z capitaomorte: Hi, is anyone here running SBCL > 1.2.15?
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2017-09-19T14:44:26Z Bike: Sure?
2017-09-19T14:44:47Z beach: capitaomorte: People might be reluctant to answer such a question.  It is better that you state what your issue is directly.
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2017-09-19T14:45:56Z capitaomorte: beach: Fair enough... I need someone to run a short snippet from the command line to try to reproduce a bug
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2017-09-19T14:46:12Z Bike: 1.2.15 is from... 2015 apparently.
2017-09-19T14:46:36Z beach: Yeah, I am on 1.3.18.
2017-09-19T14:46:53Z beach: capitaomorte: Any reason you want to hang on to an old version?
2017-09-19T14:46:59Z capitaomorte: http://paste.lisp.org/+7MWS.
2017-09-19T14:47:15Z _rumbler31: beach: he said > 1.2.15
2017-09-19T14:47:18Z capitaomorte: beach: that's the point, I don't but I think a regression happened in that version
2017-09-19T14:47:30Z beach: I see.
2017-09-19T14:47:31Z capitaomorte: can you try my paste at your version?
2017-09-19T14:47:33Z _rumbler31: oh nm
2017-09-19T14:47:41Z _rumbler31: you need someone running 1.2.15 or newer?
2017-09-19T14:47:49Z capitaomorte: rumbler31: yes
2017-09-19T14:48:25Z capitaomorte: In SLY (and SLIME) autodoc has apparently stopped showing default values for &key args in defmacro
2017-09-19T14:48:36Z Bike: i get (&KEY (BLA))
2017-09-19T14:49:01Z Bike: on 1.3.18.
2017-09-19T14:49:34Z capitaomorte: Bike: Thanks. great. Or actually, not great. I just wanted someone else to try because in sbcl-devel they say they can't reproduce it
2017-09-19T14:50:36Z _rumbler31: annotated
2017-09-19T14:50:56Z _rumbler31: I also get (&KEY (BLA)) on 1.3.16.36-ac1c26b71-dirty
2017-09-19T14:51:31Z capitaomorte: _rumbler31: thanks, too. I think that's enough then, sorry for the bother
2017-09-19T14:55:02Z mfiano: i do as well on 1.3.20
2017-09-19T14:56:48Z capitaomorte: mfiano: thanks. I think I know what the culprit commit is but compiling SBCL is too much hassle for me right now because of some gcc woes.
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2017-09-19T14:59:50Z _rumbler31: capitaomorte: fwiw, I built my version of sbcl using ccl
2017-09-19T15:00:54Z Bike: if that matters it's probably another bug.
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2017-09-19T15:08:35Z capitaomorte: Curiously, the sbcl maintainer states that the behaviour I reported for on 1.3.16 and 1.3.18 "is irrelevant" to the issue
2017-09-19T15:09:05Z Bike: do you mean stassats? because he's like, around, if not in this particular channel
2017-09-19T15:09:16Z capitaomorte: Perhaps something fundamental changed from SBCL 1.2.x to 1.3.x?
2017-09-19T15:09:58Z capitaomorte: Bike: yes I mean him. I can't find him here (I also don't come here a lot)
2017-09-19T15:10:18Z Bike: he's not on this channel, but he's in #sbcl
2017-09-19T15:10:23Z Bike: he's pretty terse.
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2017-09-19T15:20:48Z dim: and of good advice
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2017-09-19T15:22:29Z Xach: Hmm, can you think of a big-ish library or application in Quicklisp that isn't super platform-dependent?
2017-09-19T15:22:38Z Xach: trying mcclim, but i get a fontconfig error on macos X
2017-09-19T15:22:57Z Xach: (trying for something physically big, or with a lot of deps, to test out performance on validating tarballs and such)
2017-09-19T15:23:23Z Bike: babel has some long files and stuff in it
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2017-09-19T15:27:50Z dim: Xach: pgloader might apply
2017-09-19T15:28:07Z Xach: dim: good one!
2017-09-19T15:28:16Z dim: it should work as is on mac, linux and windows
2017-09-19T15:28:55Z dim: but I don't have a windows setup, so it's been broken at times, and also you need freetds.dll (protocol implementation for MS SQL Server) which I don't know where to find for windows
2017-09-19T15:29:16Z dim: it might be that thanks to WSL we don't have that portability hasard anymore tho ;-)
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2017-09-19T15:31:05Z capitaomorte: Sorry again, can anyone try that previous snippet on the very latest 1.3.21?
2017-09-19T15:31:09Z Xach: oh, crud, i don't have sybase libraries.
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2017-09-19T15:32:04Z dim: which platform? it should be easy to have'em
2017-09-19T15:32:32Z dim: apt-get install freetds-dev
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2017-09-19T15:43:07Z stylewarning: stassats advice is often poor, only good if you manage to convince him your problem matters/is interesting, and you frame your question to his satisfaction
2017-09-19T15:43:09Z stylewarning: ;)
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2017-09-19T15:43:33Z Shinmera: Or if you take the time to understand what he's saying and why he's saying it.
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2017-09-19T15:44:45Z capitaomorte: stylewarning: stassats finally ack'ed the bug
2017-09-19T15:46:24Z capitaomorte: but that was the hardest ever bug I had to report yet, and it seemed pretty easy
2017-09-19T15:46:36Z stylewarning: Shinmera: this is assuming he has communicated something that, given sufficient time, can be understood to be something reasonable. This can be true but is often not.
2017-09-19T15:47:09Z stylewarning: I'm just happy he takes care of SBCL, so I don't care if he's immediately helpful to folks', including my, problems.
2017-09-19T15:48:05Z capitaomorte: well, from my perspective the future doens't seem bright for CL :(
2017-09-19T15:48:24Z Shinmera: CL is dead, so who cares.
2017-09-19T15:48:31Z capitaomorte: Shinmera: haha
2017-09-19T15:48:31Z stylewarning: CL has been pretty good and will continue to be.
2017-09-19T15:48:40Z capitaomorte: Shinmera: true!
2017-09-19T15:49:12Z capitaomorte: Shinmera: that put a smile on my tired-of-bug-reporting face, go to go now, thanks
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2017-09-19T15:57:48Z pjb: Xach: you would have to define "super platform-dependent".  You may have systems that run only on a single platform, but that would require only adding a single line to make it run on another platform.  On the other hand, you may have systems that run on half a dozen platforms, but to make it run on another platform you would have to touch every lines of source and the asd files!
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2017-09-19T15:59:49Z shrdlu68: :(
2017-09-19T16:00:06Z stylewarning: I like how when a Lisper doesn't know the answer to a question, he/she just retorts with another question indicating the original question was far too underspecified, and if only it were more specified, the purported answerer would be able to share his/her answer.
2017-09-19T16:00:39Z shrdlu68: Down with Lispers!
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2017-09-19T16:00:46Z whyNOP: could you be more specific?
2017-09-19T16:01:16Z beach: whyNOP: What do you mean?
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2017-09-19T16:07:18Z JuanDaugherty sensed a trollfest
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2017-09-19T16:08:09Z whyNOP: I'm being stupid, ignore that lol just replying to stylewarning about specifications.
2017-09-19T16:09:10Z beach: whyNOP: I thought you were just giving an example of what stylewarning said, so I gave one more.
2017-09-19T16:09:33Z whyNOP: hahah i wondered if that was the case.  perfect ;)
2017-09-19T16:09:34Z jasom: stylewarning: to be fair, pjb pretty much always claims the question is underspecified, even when he knows the answer to the question.
2017-09-19T16:09:36Z stylewarning: whyNOP: Xach asked a perfectly fine question, only to be rebuffed by pjb asking for all these terms to be defined and such. But the fact of the matter is that even if the terms were defined, pjb probably could not offer a sensible answer, unless it is a part of his own collection. ;)
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2017-09-19T16:10:16Z JuanDaugherty: this is sort of like the glass menagerie uih, did you see that?
2017-09-19T16:10:28Z JuanDaugherty: gotta be super careful with the peoples
2017-09-19T16:10:42Z whyNOP: ahh i missed the original question but i see the answer.  came in too late
2017-09-19T16:10:43Z pjb: as if "super platform-dependent" had any meaning…
2017-09-19T16:10:47Z whyNOP: DUN DUN dunnnnnn!!!!
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2017-09-19T16:11:13Z stylewarning: pjb "quickload and runs on the top 80% of popular computers" :D
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2017-09-19T16:11:37Z dim: people, you can't fight it here, it's the war room.
2017-09-19T16:11:39Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: I've not had the chance to see that yet; it's the play that made Williams famous though
2017-09-19T16:11:49Z JuanDaugherty: y
2017-09-19T16:12:04Z JuanDaugherty: about the fragile
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2017-09-19T16:12:24Z whyNOP: dim lol
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2017-09-19T16:18:02Z JuanDaugherty: nice if there was a lisp matrix thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(communication_protocol) )
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2017-09-19T16:20:27Z emaczen: What is the fastest way to append/concatenate two lists together?
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2017-09-19T16:21:40Z beach: emaczen: Destructively or not?
2017-09-19T16:22:05Z emaczen: destructively is fine
2017-09-19T16:22:11Z beach: clhs nconc
2017-09-19T16:22:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm
2017-09-19T16:22:36Z emaczen: beach: that is what I thought, but for some reason my program seems to get hung up there
2017-09-19T16:22:45Z emaczen: let me try something else real quick just to compare
2017-09-19T16:23:11Z beach: It is possible that your implementation has a particularly bad NCONC, but it is unlikely.
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2017-09-19T16:23:49Z pjb: emaczen: quick is not necessarily correct. You'll have to lose your C mindset…
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2017-09-19T16:25:41Z emaczen: pjb: I'm having problems with memory and speed now
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2017-09-19T16:26:29Z beach: emaczen: How long is the first list?
2017-09-19T16:26:33Z pjb: Do you really want to destructively concatenate them? This will often lead to infinite loops and other hang ups.
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2017-09-19T16:27:02Z emaczen: pjb: Don't you just do (setf var (nconc var var2)) ?
2017-09-19T16:27:11Z pjb: There's a faster way to concatenate lists…  Assuming you can and want to do it by mutating them, you just need to keep references to the head and tail of the list. Then it can be done in O(1).
2017-09-19T16:27:23Z pjb: emaczen:  (setf var (nconc var var2)) is O(length(var)).
2017-09-19T16:27:47Z pjb: (setf (cdr (tail list1)) list (tail list1) (tail list2)) is O(1).
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2017-09-19T16:28:00Z beach: emaczen: Clearly, pjb is right in that the time is proportional to the length of the first list.
2017-09-19T16:28:04Z emaczen: pjb: Yes I have my own linked-lists built that will concatenate in O(1) maybe I'll look into that in a second if this doesn't get any better
2017-09-19T16:30:07Z emaczen: pjb: Yep, those nconcs have messed me up subsequently (probably infinite circular lists) after I stopped the program and tried something else
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2017-09-19T16:32:04Z Xach: dim: macos
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2017-09-19T16:32:55Z beach: emaczen: That is exactly what pjb warned you about.  If there is shared structure between the two lists, it can become very messy.
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2017-09-19T16:36:22Z dim: Xach: brew install freetds, IIRC, checking
2017-09-19T16:36:28Z dim: yep
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2017-09-19T16:40:17Z Xach does not use brew or the other one
2017-09-19T16:41:05Z JuanDaugherty: macports
2017-09-19T16:41:50Z JuanDaugherty: maybe on next mac I won't either
2017-09-19T16:42:26Z JuanDaugherty: turned out apparently there isn't a lisp matrix anything, it's too new I guess
2017-09-19T16:42:33Z dim: Xach: oh, then I guess pgloader falls into the not super portable category?
2017-09-19T16:42:44Z Xach: dim: sort of. not a big deal in this case though.
2017-09-19T16:42:46Z JuanDaugherty: although i notice there are roughly 10 users here now
2017-09-19T16:44:17Z pjb: If it's the basis for popularity (of pgloader)…
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2017-09-19T16:48:48Z dim: Xach: ok, well if it is I guess you could install freetds...
2017-09-19T16:49:02Z dim: I've not worked on optional requirements for pgloader yet
2017-09-19T16:49:20Z dim: it would be possible I guess to offer a pgloader with only MySQL or only MS SQL support, from the same sources?
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2017-09-19T16:50:06Z dim: pjb: my basis for popularity of pgloader is number of stars on github and frequency of bug reports
2017-09-19T16:50:45Z pjb: Of course, it has to be intrinsic.
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2017-09-19T16:54:45Z dim: it's pretty subjective, but I've come to get used to it
2017-09-19T16:54:54Z dim: also, no bugs reported means no users, rather than no bugs
2017-09-19T16:55:17Z dim: maybe not for all projects, but for this one, yes
2017-09-19T16:55:36Z dim: (it's meant to automatically process data it knows nothing about)
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2017-09-19T18:13:15Z jasom: Xach: drakma is medium-sized and portable
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2017-09-19T18:19:55Z Fare: dim: process data it knows nothing about? Oh no, is it an AI trying to replace human programmers?
2017-09-19T18:20:41Z Fare: Xach: I was reasonably happy with nix on macOS. There is no a QL to nix wrapper, too.
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2017-09-19T18:35:40Z Fare: beach, emaczen: there is no good nconc
2017-09-19T18:36:11Z Fare: and if you need a lot of append's, single-linked lists are not the correct data structure
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2017-09-19T18:37:28Z Fare is reminded of how ASDF 1 was O(n^3) or O(n^4) on large flat systems... and exponential on deep systems using conditional dependencies.
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2017-09-19T19:39:20Z dim: Fare: data loader tool for PostgreSQL, input are csv, dbf files, sqlite, mysql, mssql databases, target is end users, not programmers
2017-09-19T19:39:49Z dim: no AI, but still processing data it knowns nothing about, and data the developer knows nothing about
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2017-09-19T19:40:19Z dim: we just make some assumptions, hopefully they're not too wrong, depend on the input
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2017-09-19T19:46:08Z Xach: heh
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2017-09-19T19:46:50Z Xach: heh, testing SBCL vs CCL in a quicklisp dist that enables full pgp signing of metadata and SHA checks of downloads.
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2017-09-19T19:47:20Z Xach: ccl turns out to be way faster on a big system because although its crypto verification is slower, its compiler is way way faster.
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2017-09-19T19:48:58Z Ober: :P
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2017-09-19T19:51:41Z Fare: Xach: are you seeing a factor 4x faster compiler?
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2017-09-19T19:58:20Z phoe_: we no longer have only 10x programmers, we now have 10x compilers
2017-09-19T19:58:29Z phoe_: Lisp has come a long way
2017-09-19T20:09:48Z dim: Xach: yeah on travis pgloader testing is twice as fast with ccl
2017-09-19T20:10:16Z dim: https://travis-ci.org/dimitri/pgloader
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2017-09-19T20:52:13Z Ober: dim: you use any optimizations with safety vs speed?
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2017-09-19T21:10:43Z jasom: which version of sbcl? It has improved compile times in the past year somewhat IIRC, but yeah ccl is a much faster compiler in general
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2017-09-19T21:26:13Z didi: So, fun times. (defun foo () ...) (defun bar () (flet ((foo () ...)) (mapcar 'foo ...))). I wanted to call FOO from `flet', but instead I was calling FOO from global.
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2017-09-19T21:29:19Z Shinmera: I feel like exactly this has been discussed at least four times in the past two weeks
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2017-09-19T21:29:57Z didi: More fun times, then.
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2017-09-19T21:33:36Z rpg: I forget, did someone move ITERATE from darcs to git?
2017-09-19T21:34:28Z didi thinks of SERIES
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2017-09-19T22:01:45Z mfiano: didi: use #' instead of '
2017-09-19T22:02:49Z didi: mfiano: Indeed.
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2017-09-19T22:06:27Z didi: mfiano: The difference between #' and ', specially where it matters, isn't much clear to me yet.
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2017-09-19T22:07:59Z mfiano: I always use #' to be explicit in my intent, so this rarely comes up for me, but I was aware of it.
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2017-09-19T22:09:35Z lawful_evil: no one is fun on irc anymore
2017-09-19T22:09:40Z lawful_evil: cat-v total boors
2017-09-19T22:10:06Z Shinmera: K
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2017-09-19T22:19:54Z pjb: didi: flet is a lexical binding, it doesn't touch the symbol-function of the function name.
2017-09-19T22:27:17Z didi: pjb: oic. So in the `mapcar' case, it has more to do with `mapcar' coercing a symbol than `flet'.
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2017-09-19T22:44:08Z pjb: didi: notice it's not mapcar or in general the other HOF functions that resolve the function designator, but APPLY (FUNCALL calls APPLY theorically).
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2017-09-20T01:55:56Z mr_yogurt: what lisp would you guys say is the closest to a lisp-1 version of common lisp?
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2017-09-20T01:59:52Z aeth: some dead 90s Lisp
2017-09-20T01:59:56Z aeth: EuLisp, maybe?
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2017-09-20T02:00:27Z aeth: ISLISP is a Lisp-2 apparently. That would've been my first guess.
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2017-09-20T02:04:07Z mr_yogurt: aeth: what about closest lisp that's relevant?
2017-09-20T02:04:33Z aeth: Surprisingly few Lisps are relevant. Most are toys or failed efforts.
2017-09-20T02:04:59Z aeth: The only Lisps I know that have users are Common Lisp, Scheme (and Racket if you count it separately), and Clojure.
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2017-09-20T02:05:51Z mr_yogurt: i guess the question then becomes which of those three is closest to common lisp, then
2017-09-20T02:05:52Z pierpa: and elisp
2017-09-20T02:06:08Z aeth: well, yeah, but that's application-specific. AutoLisp is also still alive.
2017-09-20T02:06:53Z aeth: There are a bunch of minor, barely-alive Lisps, but they're mostly "hey, let's express <language> in s-expressions"
2017-09-20T02:06:56Z pierpa: I think no lisp-1 is even vaguely similar to CL
2017-09-20T02:07:08Z aeth: e.g. Hy is Python in s-expressions
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2017-09-20T02:10:02Z aeth: Scheme is probably the closest lisp-1 to CL
2017-09-20T02:10:13Z aeth: well, notable one
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2017-09-20T02:13:30Z mr_yogurt: is there a chance arc is going anywhere?
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2017-09-20T02:16:04Z aeth: GNU Hurd's odds of being used are better imo
2017-09-20T02:16:36Z aeth: I haven't really heard of Arc in years.
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2017-09-20T02:17:03Z aeth: The problem with Lisps is that it's really easy to make your own, but really hard for it to be more useful than Common Lisp.
2017-09-20T02:17:16Z aeth: (And very hard to make it outperform SBCL.)
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2017-09-20T02:17:39Z aeth: If SBCL is faster and SBCL is more powerful/expressive, why use FooLisp?
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2017-09-20T02:22:01Z mr_yogurt: what arguments are there for a lisp-2 over a lisp-1?
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2017-09-20T02:23:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: mr_yogurt: You can do this without shadowing your functions (let ((max (max stuff)) (length (length other-stuff))) ...)
2017-09-20T02:23:00Z minion: Petit_Dejeuner, memo from pjb: re-indent the Common Lisp from your programming language class to make it pretty!
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2017-09-20T02:24:23Z aeth: mr_yogurt: When you have a huge language, name collisions are an issue.
2017-09-20T02:24:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: It turns out it's pretty convenient to not have to think of a new name and which is which is pretty obvious from context.
2017-09-20T02:24:45Z aeth: mr_yogurt: One way to avoid name collisions would be to use many packages instead of one core CL package. But CL doesn't do this.
2017-09-20T02:24:56Z aeth: And even then, what if you want to call a variable list or something?
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2017-09-20T02:26:14Z aeth: You can have a type foo defined by the function foo, and give it the variable name foo when you use it.
2017-09-20T02:27:00Z mr_yogurt: is the whole argument really just 'naming things is easier sometimes'?
2017-09-20T02:27:43Z aeth: naming is a hard problem
2017-09-20T02:28:23Z aeth: and when you have name collisions you have to keep the scope in your head. Maybe it's okay to call something list locally if you're not going to call the function list, but then you have to be aware of that
2017-09-20T02:29:04Z Petit_Dejeuner doesn't really notice one being significantly better than the other. Lisp-1 is more elegant, but lisp-2 is more practical.
2017-09-20T02:29:19Z mr_yogurt: or you can just call it _list
2017-09-20T02:29:27Z aeth: On the other side of the argument, you can just do things like (mapcar + (list 1 2 3)) or (lambda (x) (x 42)) if it's a lisp-1
2017-09-20T02:30:19Z mr_yogurt: aeth: i already understand that side of the argument
2017-09-20T02:30:22Z aeth: sorry, (mapcar + (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6))
2017-09-20T02:30:30Z aeth: my first example is nonsensical because it does nothing
2017-09-20T02:31:02Z aeth: There's no clear answer for lisp-1 vs lisp-2 or separate nil/false vs not
2017-09-20T02:31:18Z aeth: You make some things less elegant and others more
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2017-09-20T02:32:00Z aeth: (let ((foo (foo 42))) (declare (foo foo)) ...) is actually a quite elegant thing you can do with multiple namespaces
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2017-09-20T02:35:38Z mr_yogurt: or you can just use _foo
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2017-09-20T02:36:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: You'd actuall need foo, _foo, and __foo for that example, wouldn't you?
2017-09-20T02:36:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: One for the type, one for the function, and one for the variable?
2017-09-20T02:36:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's one of the things that annoys me about Racket. The types are in the same namespace as everything else.
2017-09-20T02:37:03Z aeth: Real Lispers don't even have a _ key on their keyboard
2017-09-20T02:37:10Z pjb: mr_yogurt: why don't you just read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html instead of bothering us with those sterile questions?
2017-09-20T02:37:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: This is a dead horse.
2017-09-20T02:37:41Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: So that's why Typed Racket uses Foo for types instead of foo, I guess
2017-09-20T02:37:59Z aeth: a typed Lisp definitely should be a Lisp-n, not a Lisp-1
2017-09-20T02:38:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: I was thinking more of the destructring record syntax.
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2017-09-20T02:38:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm pretty sure I've gotten a bug before because I used muh-record as a variable name and then tried to use match with muh-record.
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2017-09-20T02:39:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: My variable names were shadowing the destructuring bind symbol IIRC.
2017-09-20T02:39:45Z aeth: I think the *proper* thing to do is (setf *lisp-n* 2)
2017-09-20T02:40:40Z pjb: aeth: not if you've not declared *lisp-n*. Instead use defparameter.
2017-09-20T02:41:01Z aeth: no, I mean, make lisp-n configurable
2017-09-20T02:41:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: I saw a (setq foo val) without a declaration today. :V
2017-09-20T02:41:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: Such suffering.
2017-09-20T02:41:52Z aeth: just like there's a *read-default-float-format*, why not have a *lisp-n* and settle the debate forever? :-p
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2017-09-20T02:42:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: Then what would we talk about?
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2017-09-20T02:52:58Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: immutability vs. mutability, higher order functions vs. equivalent macros, compile time vs. runtime, dynamic vs. static, typed vs. untyped, etc.
2017-09-20T02:53:26Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-09-20T02:53:44Z aeth: do vs. loop
2017-09-20T02:54:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Behead those who insult loop!
2017-09-20T02:54:17Z aeth: list vs. array when it's a trivially short sequence so it probably won't matter
2017-09-20T02:54:33Z lawful_evil: spark.aapche.org can list do stuff like this?
2017-09-20T02:54:40Z aeth: plist vs. hash table
2017-09-20T02:54:41Z lawful_evil: how do liek beowulf cluster in lisp?
2017-09-20T02:54:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: alist > *
2017-09-20T02:55:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: Since alist supports key-val pair shadowing.
2017-09-20T02:55:05Z aeth: yes, yes, a plist is a list
2017-09-20T02:55:24Z Zhivago: Just like plists.
2017-09-20T02:55:37Z aeth: CL needs named tuples like Python
2017-09-20T02:55:45Z jasom: does anybody know if cl-autowrap works with C++?  I know c2ffi does, but it's unclear to me if cl-autowrap can do anything with c2ffi's output from cl-autowrap
2017-09-20T02:55:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: Named tuples?
2017-09-20T02:56:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: You mean tuple unpacking?
2017-09-20T02:56:09Z aeth: tuple = immutable sequence; named tuples = sort of like the plist version of that
2017-09-20T02:56:33Z jasom: aeth: do structs of type list not work?
2017-09-20T02:56:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: I didn't know Python had anything like that.
2017-09-20T02:57:02Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: they were added after the Python hype went away
2017-09-20T02:57:14Z aeth: jasom: immutable means that the compiler can optimize them more
2017-09-20T02:57:25Z jasom: ah
2017-09-20T02:57:41Z jasom: well lisp has almost nothing immutable built in, other than literals
2017-09-20T02:57:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh, another excellent data structure from the collections module.
2017-09-20T02:57:48Z aeth: well, probably no optimization in the standard Python implementation, which is one of the slowest languages that's not compiled to that machine that runs in Game of Life
2017-09-20T02:58:26Z Petit_Dejeuner really likes Racket's immutable lists and dictionaries.
2017-09-20T02:58:30Z aeth: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2970608/what-are-named-tuples-in-python#2970722
2017-09-20T02:58:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: Too bad they don't have immutable vectors iirc.
2017-09-20T02:58:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: This is nice.
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2017-09-20T02:59:01Z aeth: Pretty much two things from python would be cool. sequence comprehensions (because list comprehensions just aren't good enough) and tuples/named tuples.
2017-09-20T02:59:13Z pjb: Even NIL and T weren't immutable once upon a time, and neither symbol names!
2017-09-20T02:59:21Z aeth: I say sequence comprehensions because that would be the CL-idiomatic way to do it, support both common sequence types
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2017-09-20T02:59:42Z pjb: Notice how CLHS doesn't say symbol names are not mutable, but that it's not conforming to mutate them!
2017-09-20T02:59:55Z pjb: (replace (symbol-name 'nil) "FOO")
2017-09-20T03:00:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: There's no standard way to represent sequences in Common Lisp, is there?
2017-09-20T03:01:05Z aeth: I don't think so
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2017-09-20T03:01:23Z aeth: There's also no standard accessor to indexable things, although elt is generic over sequences.
2017-09-20T03:01:40Z aeth: CL definitely could be richer if there was another standard.
2017-09-20T03:01:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: It wouldn't be hard to write a loop that generates sequences if there was a standard sequence to generate.
2017-09-20T03:02:10Z pjb: aeth: like, (defpackage …) is not enrichment enough…
2017-09-20T03:02:49Z aeth: no lazy sequences is another missing part of CL
2017-09-20T03:02:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: Not really much to do about it. There aren't any other standardized high level languages with several compilers.
2017-09-20T03:03:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: And there isn't going to be an update.
2017-09-20T03:03:09Z aeth: pjb: You can add anything to any language, but some things require compiler support to be added efficiently unless the language is as basic as C
2017-09-20T03:03:21Z pjb: aeth: defmacro
2017-09-20T03:03:30Z aeth: macros are not powerful enough
2017-09-20T03:03:37Z pjb: They are.
2017-09-20T03:03:39Z aeth: You'd need iirc compiler macros with type information
2017-09-20T03:04:34Z pjb: You can't rely on CL compiler macros since they're not necessarily used.  You have to implement your own with macros, if you need them.
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2017-09-20T03:06:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: I don't even think it's an implementation problem. If you extend too much, you have to write a new standard.
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2017-09-20T03:07:06Z pjb: No. A new documentation. Standards are processes involving a lot of resources and people.  That's the point: you can make your lisp evolve without a standard.
2017-09-20T03:07:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Once you start writing replacements for things like 'defun', 'defvar' 'defclass', and 'let', the language stops being Common Lisp.
2017-09-20T03:07:27Z pjb: Compare that with C which needs the effort of a new stadard every 10 years to evolve.
2017-09-20T03:07:36Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: it does not stop!
2017-09-20T03:07:43Z pjb: (in-package "MY-LISP-USER")
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2017-09-20T03:08:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, but the language is also the conventions and idioms the programmers know. If the language changes too much, then those no longer apply.
2017-09-20T03:08:25Z pjb: and further: (de fun (x) (+ x 1)) (cl:defun g (&optional x &rest r) (list x r))
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2017-09-20T03:08:37Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: wrong. This is lisp.
2017-09-20T03:09:04Z pjb: The convention and idioms are not the programmer's, but that of the problem domain!
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2017-09-20T03:10:52Z jasom: At what point a language becomes something else due to metaprograming is a gray area
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2017-09-20T03:12:29Z jasom: Is this still c? https://mupdf.com/docs/coding-overview.html#error-handling
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2017-09-20T03:13:05Z pjb: If it goes thru a C pre-processor and compiler it is.
2017-09-20T03:13:48Z aeth: languages can compile to C
2017-09-20T03:13:55Z aeth: it's a bit less common now with LLVM, though
2017-09-20T03:13:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: The worry is that if you extend a language through the language to the point where you start masking or replacing built-ins, then your language starts to stop working well with other code.
2017-09-20T03:14:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: It'll work, but the core benefits won't extend to code that's written closer to the base language.
2017-09-20T03:15:41Z pjb: When you add your bills, that doesn't prevent you to use the same mathematical language to compute black hole structures.
2017-09-20T03:15:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can write a lazy sequence object and replace loop and other constructs with versions that can support lazy sequences, but people who aren't using my library won't create libraries that support it unless I'm really clever with how I shadow the standard values.
2017-09-20T03:16:30Z pjb: In any case, there's #petit_dejeuner_language
2017-09-20T03:16:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Patent Pending
2017-09-20T03:16:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: My Lisp will be the best, don't worry.
2017-09-20T03:16:57Z aeth: Iirc, someone here is writing a library that has type-generics rather than class-generics. It's only portable to a handful of implementations.
2017-09-20T03:17:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: Tokenizer and parser are working. Now I can just play with Lisp in Small Parts.
2017-09-20T03:17:04Z aeth: I cannot find it on Google or in my logs and that's bothering me.
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2017-09-20T03:17:25Z aeth: But, anyway, you'd need a lot more control over efficiently abstracting over types in order to heavily customize CL
2017-09-20T03:17:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Better read macros would be nice too.
2017-09-20T03:17:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: iirc, they aren't very powerful
2017-09-20T03:18:21Z aeth: reader macros are painful to use
2017-09-20T03:18:22Z jasom: pjb: so, is the ZetaC dialect of C, lisp?
2017-09-20T03:18:37Z jasom: Or Vacietis for that matter
2017-09-20T03:19:24Z aeth: found it. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2017-09-20T03:19:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: imho, common lisp doesn't need to be extended all that much to be better than a great many other languages
2017-09-20T03:20:01Z Zhivago: petit: CL was designed as a compatibility layer, like posix, rather than as a fundamental language.
2017-09-20T03:20:27Z Zhivago: I think that in retrospect that was an unfortunate choice, but there you have it.
2017-09-20T03:20:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: So did the maclisp people and so on define their languages in terms of CL?
2017-09-20T03:20:49Z jasom: Zhivago: not quite; the working group added a *lot* of features that didn't exist already
2017-09-20T03:20:57Z jasom: POSIX was much more reactive
2017-09-20T03:21:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: Did any existing languages have CLOS?
2017-09-20T03:21:21Z aeth: You can define languages that compile to CL and CL is almost an acceptable multi-language environment, sort of like Racket's philosophy.
2017-09-20T03:21:25Z aeth: The keyword is almost.
2017-09-20T03:21:35Z Zhivago: They had things that weren't very different from CLOS in many places.
2017-09-20T03:22:01Z jasom: CLOS was strongly based upon flavours and common loops, but was a new thing.  I don't know that any existing lisp used lexical bindings before they were introduced, but could be wrong about that one
2017-09-20T03:22:30Z Zhivago: I'm not saying that it was purely a compatibility layer, but that that's the direction that CL was introduced from.
2017-09-20T03:22:42Z Zhivago: Or, perhaps, marketed as.
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2017-09-20T03:23:32Z aeth: One key thing that CL is missing is additional read-time, compile-time, macro-expansion-time, etc., power.
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2017-09-20T03:23:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's missing hygiene! :^)
2017-09-20T03:24:22Z aeth: actually, yes
2017-09-20T03:25:13Z aeth: The current trend in programming languages is catching mistakes before the program has even run.
2017-09-20T03:26:22Z aeth: Someone would have to do a lot of work determining the minmium number of additions necessary at the implementation level (where everything else can be added by libraries)
2017-09-20T03:26:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Once they're done exploring that avenue, they'll come back to image systems.
2017-09-20T03:26:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Both are excellent.
2017-09-20T03:26:54Z Bicyclidine: and then, back to snobol pattern matching
2017-09-20T03:27:21Z aeth: What elements of pattern matching cannot be efficiently implemented in a portable CL library?
2017-09-20T03:27:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: Give us APL or give us d3@%$(*@#$()+@).
2017-09-20T03:27:27Z pjb: All this should have gone to #lispcafe. It has nothing to do in #lisp.
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2017-09-20T03:30:01Z whyNOP: so strict
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2017-09-20T03:31:08Z aeth: On the one hand, you have channels like this. On the other hand, you have #emacs where the topic is anything but Emacs.
2017-09-20T03:34:08Z whyNOP: rofl that's what i was thinking...except the rule is Emacs comes first, and all other chatter should be dropped in favour.  it's a good system.  sorry to be off-topic btw if that's a hard rule.  i just wanted to observe this.
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2017-09-20T04:20:34Z vtomole: What is the algorithm to parse sexprs? Some type of recursive decent? I don't know how to handle nested parentheses.
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2017-09-20T04:24:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: vtomole: You mean parsing text?
2017-09-20T04:24:55Z vtomole: Yeah. I want to implement my own read(). For pedalogical purposes.
2017-09-20T04:25:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: You have a recursive function that keeps a list of subexprs.
2017-09-20T04:25:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: You make a recursive call each time you get an open paren and return a sexpr each time you hit a closing paren.
2017-09-20T04:26:25Z vtomole: Thanks
2017-09-20T04:26:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: sure!
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2017-09-20T04:29:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-20T04:29:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: morning
2017-09-20T04:31:35Z beach: jasom: Not sure whether you are talking about lexical scope when you say "lexical binding", but Maclisp used lexical scope in the compiler (but not in the interpreter).  And the use of lexical scope in Common Lisp was inspired by Scheme, that came before Common Lisp.
2017-09-20T04:32:10Z Zhivago: vtomle: Recursive descent, but mediated via a readtable.
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2017-09-20T04:37:38Z vtomole: A readtable for the symbols?
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2017-09-20T04:37:54Z pjb: vtomole: just read the clhs.
2017-09-20T04:37:56Z pjb: (chapter 2)
2017-09-20T04:38:03Z vtomole: clhs read
2017-09-20T04:38:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
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2017-09-20T05:06:54Z jmercouris: let's say I have a defclass, how can I use some of the args I define, in a later variable
2017-09-20T05:07:21Z jmercouris: for example given: https://pastebin.com/DvirDDsk, how could I reuse history-active-node in another argument
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2017-09-20T05:11:14Z jmercouris: update: figured it out, seems i'll have to define a method
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2017-09-20T05:17:29Z beach: jmercouris: Just use the accessor.  The :accessor slot option automatically defines a method.
2017-09-20T05:18:10Z jmercouris: beach: I'm not sure what you mean exactly, use the same accessor twice?
2017-09-20T05:18:13Z beach: jmercouris: As in (mode-history-active-node (make-instance 'document-mode)).
2017-09-20T05:18:57Z beach: jmercouris: Maybe I am misunderstanding something.  Your terminology is off.
2017-09-20T05:19:07Z jmercouris: yeah, I'm sorry about that, I don't know the right words for all of these things
2017-09-20T05:19:23Z jmercouris: I have a a slot in a defclass, I want to use the value of the first slot, in a later slot
2017-09-20T05:19:25Z beach: "how can I use some of the args I define" does not make sense, because you are not defining any args.
2017-09-20T05:19:33Z pjb: jmercouris: consider a method of the initialize-instance or the shared-initialize generic functions.
2017-09-20T05:19:55Z beach: "how can I reuse history-active-node in another argument" does not make sense either, since they are not arguments.
2017-09-20T05:20:01Z jmercouris: pjb: that's the approach I've essentially decided to go with
2017-09-20T05:20:12Z jmercouris: beach: they are args to a constructor in another language ;)
2017-09-20T05:20:21Z beach: This is Common Lisp.
2017-09-20T05:20:34Z jmercouris: beach: I'm still learning!
2017-09-20T05:20:40Z beach: Good.
2017-09-20T05:20:53Z pjb: beach: he's considering the problem of using a slot in the :initform or another slot.
2017-09-20T05:21:21Z jmercouris: pjb: exactly!
2017-09-20T05:21:22Z beach: pjb: Yeah, I am slowly understanding.  Thanks.
2017-09-20T05:21:30Z jmercouris: I'm almost ready to release v 0.02 btw!
2017-09-20T05:21:37Z beach: I guess my engineering training made me very sensitive to terminology.
2017-09-20T05:21:53Z jmercouris: so much re-architecture work to do as I learn more about lisp, I keep looking back at my code and shaking my head lol
2017-09-20T05:22:01Z Zhivago: Correcting it is worthwhile, since it will require his mental model to be repaired.
2017-09-20T05:22:13Z beach: pjb: By the way, one EDF TV commercial measures energy in Kelvin-Watt-Henry. :(
2017-09-20T05:22:34Z pjb: KWH?
2017-09-20T05:22:35Z pjb: :-)
2017-09-20T05:22:44Z beach: Yeah.  Very disturbing.
2017-09-20T05:22:45Z jmercouris: Zhivago: I've got a solid 10+ years to unlearn it seems :D
2017-09-20T05:23:12Z pjb: The worst is the MS for millisecond instead of Mega second…
2017-09-20T05:23:20Z beach: Mega Siemens.
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2017-09-20T05:23:29Z pjb: or Mega Siemens, yes :-)
2017-09-20T05:23:49Z beach: My favorite is speed measures in Kelvin-Mega per Henry.
2017-09-20T05:23:57Z beach: whatever that might mean.
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2017-09-20T05:24:33Z |3b|: it means they are using an upper-casing reader :p
2017-09-20T05:24:43Z beach: Heh.
2017-09-20T05:25:02Z loke went to look for a new refrigerator recently, and the power consumption was written as kWh/year
2017-09-20T05:25:22Z beach: At least it's the right dimension.
2017-09-20T05:25:46Z loke: beach: True, but a very weird way to write power. :-)
2017-09-20T05:25:51Z beach: Indeed.
2017-09-20T05:26:01Z pjb: and it's rather helpful, since your invoice is in money/kWh
2017-09-20T05:26:03Z jmercouris: so I ended up doing a form of a defmethod with a let
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2017-09-20T05:26:06Z beach: I often hear that this or that power plant produces so and so many Mega-Watt.... each day.
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2017-09-20T05:26:21Z loke: beach: OK, that's just wrong.
2017-09-20T05:26:27Z beach: Yep.
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2017-09-20T05:26:37Z jmercouris: I was getting a segfault unless I put my variable into a parent let, any idea why that is?
2017-09-20T05:26:37Z pjb: jmercouris: but really, you should consider using the initialize-instance generic function, instead of some random generic function of yours.
2017-09-20T05:27:12Z beach: jmercouris: You should not get a segment fault, or you are using a low safety value, or a bad implementation, or both.
2017-09-20T05:27:27Z pjb: jmercouris: Unless you have to initialize a graph of instances. In that case you may need your own method to create the instances and hook them together.
2017-09-20T05:27:35Z jmercouris: pjb: I will, but for now I just want to finish release v0.02
2017-09-20T05:27:51Z jmercouris: I'll read more about clos and make things tidy, but I'm still learning and it's nice to have some code to refactor
2017-09-20T05:28:21Z jmercouris: so can anyone explain the behavior: https://pastebin.com/i9vn8Lpi
2017-09-20T05:28:33Z jmercouris: the top code works, the bottom code segfaults and says
2017-09-20T05:28:44Z pjb: jmercouris: you're using non lisp code.  This is why it segfaults.
2017-09-20T05:28:54Z jmercouris:  
2017-09-20T05:28:54Z jmercouris: Condition of type: SEGMENTATION-VIOLATION
2017-09-20T05:28:54Z jmercouris: Detected access to an invalid or protected memory address.
2017-09-20T05:28:57Z pjb: jmercouris: don't use non-lisp code (FFI).  Write everything in pure lisp.
2017-09-20T05:29:04Z jmercouris: what is non lisp?
2017-09-20T05:29:10Z pjb: qconnect.
2017-09-20T05:29:17Z iqubic: jmercouris: do you have a GUI for your web browser yet?
2017-09-20T05:29:18Z pjb: qnew too.
2017-09-20T05:29:27Z jmercouris: iqubic: yes! you can load pages, buffers, and stuff like that
2017-09-20T05:29:47Z jmercouris: pjb: what do you mean it is non lisp? they are lisp functions
2017-09-20T05:29:50Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm using EQL
2017-09-20T05:29:54Z iqubic: So why is it still in early alpha?
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2017-09-20T05:30:12Z jmercouris: iqubic: well, it's not exctly the epitome of stable, and it doesn't compile either, you can only load it
2017-09-20T05:30:32Z iqubic: So you have to run it from a real?
2017-09-20T05:30:39Z beach: jmercouris: Your indentation in the second example is wrong.
2017-09-20T05:30:44Z iqubic: *repl.
2017-09-20T05:30:56Z jmercouris: iqubic: not necessarily, you can write a shell script to start it
2017-09-20T05:31:00Z beach: jmercouris: If you had indented it correctly, it would have been easier to see the problem.
2017-09-20T05:31:11Z jmercouris: iqubic: I usually run `eql5 run` and it launches
2017-09-20T05:31:21Z jmercouris: beach: let me try indenting it and see if I can figure out what you mean
2017-09-20T05:31:44Z beach: jmercouris: It looks to me like you are using the variable ROOT in defining the variable MODE.  You can't do that with a LET.  It has to be a LET*.
2017-09-20T05:31:55Z iqubic: jmercouris: I was referring to the browser. Do you have to run the browser through a repl?
2017-09-20T05:32:05Z beach: jmercouris: But you should get a warning from the compiler for that.
2017-09-20T05:32:08Z jmercouris: iqubic: no you do not, you can write a shell script to launch it
2017-09-20T05:32:16Z jmercouris: beach: I didn't get a warning for that
2017-09-20T05:32:25Z jmercouris: beach: is let a macro vs let* a function?
2017-09-20T05:32:42Z beach: Do you have a special variable named ROOT?
2017-09-20T05:32:48Z jmercouris: beach: no
2017-09-20T05:33:05Z beach: Then there is something wrong with your Common Lisp implementation.
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2017-09-20T05:33:25Z jmercouris: beach: let* fixed it
2017-09-20T05:33:29Z iqubic: jmercouris: what compiler are you using?
2017-09-20T05:33:34Z jmercouris: iqubic: ecl
2017-09-20T05:33:46Z iqubic: Beach.
2017-09-20T05:33:57Z beach: jmercouris: You should report that problem to jackdaniel.
2017-09-20T05:33:59Z jmercouris: iqubic: I am using clang actually, sorry
2017-09-20T05:34:15Z jmercouris: iqubic: ultimately clang to compile, but this is like in loaded code
2017-09-20T05:34:23Z iqubic: jmercouris: for lisp?
2017-09-20T05:34:28Z iqubic: How does that work.
2017-09-20T05:34:31Z jmercouris: iqubic: correct :D
2017-09-20T05:34:42Z jmercouris: iqubic: You know, I'm not really sure
2017-09-20T05:34:45Z beach: jmercouris: I agree with pjb in that it is a very bad idea to use foreign code while trying to learn about Common Lisp.
2017-09-20T05:35:05Z beach: iqubic: ECL can generate C code.
2017-09-20T05:35:08Z jmercouris: beach: I'm afraid that my code depends on qt framework, and I really like EQL
2017-09-20T05:35:24Z pjb: Then you will have to debug crashes.
2017-09-20T05:35:30Z jmercouris: pjb: yeah :\
2017-09-20T05:35:34Z pjb: It's not lisp that crashes, it's QT.
2017-09-20T05:35:41Z beach: jmercouris: I am just telling you why it may be hard to help you.  So you might find yourself on your own in many situations.
2017-09-20T05:35:49Z jmercouris: pjb: yes, mostly :D
2017-09-20T05:36:10Z jmercouris: I appreciate the heads up, I am trying as much as possible to disentangle the two in the code
2017-09-20T05:36:27Z loke has a couple of CFFI-using libraries on QL. The goal is to make them stable and fool-proof so that external users of the library will never have a problem. That is very hard.
2017-09-20T05:36:44Z jmercouris: I mean, I'm not doing a very good job of it, but I'm trying to
2017-09-20T05:36:55Z loke: Getting it to work is easy. Making sure that it's stable in the face of all kinds of errors is another ballgame. I can't even imagine wrapping a GUI library.
2017-09-20T05:36:56Z pjb: jmercouris: one way is to separate the UI from the core, running them in different processes, communicating thru pipes or sockets.
2017-09-20T05:37:28Z pjb: jmercouris: see for example http://www.cliki.net/pgl
2017-09-20T05:37:49Z jmercouris: iqubic: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/tree/master/next#002 version 0.01 is done, and workign on finishing 0.02
2017-09-20T05:38:14Z pjb: jmercouris: Then the lisp side is in pure lisp, and the other side can be in whatever, java, C++, we don't care if it crashes…
2017-09-20T05:38:17Z jmercouris: pjb: that is a very interesting idea, thank you
2017-09-20T05:38:48Z pjb: If it crashes, the socket is closed, and you can just relaunch the UI and re-open a new socket.
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2017-09-20T05:39:45Z jmercouris: beach: also, the indentation from emacs gets ruined in pastebin for some reason, I just looked and is indented right on my screen
2017-09-20T05:40:04Z pjb: Use http://paste.lisp.org
2017-09-20T05:40:05Z beach: Might be the TAB characters.
2017-09-20T05:40:33Z jmercouris: pjb: I'll have to think about that, maybe I can use threads at the least, to be clear QT crashing doesn't result in a complete failure of my program, the REPL still works...
2017-09-20T05:41:18Z loke: jmercouris: For some value of “work”. The problem si that ytou've placed the runtime in an inconsistent state and anything could happen.
2017-09-20T05:41:55Z jmercouris: loke: not sure what you mean, can you please rephrase that
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2017-09-20T05:45:38Z loke: jmercouris: It's almost impossible to recover frm a SEGV. There are thousands of different things that could have happened that triggered it. Most of which involves corrupt data in memory. Even if you keep running after the SEGV the corrupt data is still there, waiting to surface.
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2017-09-20T05:46:46Z jmercouris: loke: not exactly, it depends on whether that corrupt memory is a part of same thread, and your kernels' memory model
2017-09-20T05:46:59Z jmercouris: loke: eg. are you using shared memory for ipc etc
2017-09-20T05:47:17Z jmercouris: furthermore, are you using lightweight threads or otherwise
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2017-09-20T05:47:54Z jmercouris: there's a lot of factors here, I don't think it's fair to say that SEGV means corrupt data waiting to surface
2017-09-20T05:48:21Z loke: jmercouris: How would you know? Once the SGV happened you have to assume that the state is corrupt.
2017-09-20T05:49:06Z Zhivago: Unless you have triggered the SEGV intentionally.
2017-09-20T05:49:34Z Zhivago: You can recover by causing the address that faulted to be on an appropriately permissioned page and returning.
2017-09-20T05:49:53Z Zhivago: Or you can do a non-local transfer so that the handler doesn't return.
2017-09-20T05:50:05Z loke: Zhivago: Of course. I almost typed exactly that in my previous statement, but I figured it wasn't important.
2017-09-20T05:50:13Z Zhivago: But as noted, you can't sensible recover from memory corruption.
2017-09-20T05:51:13Z jmercouris: I would disagree with that, we're making many assumptions about how the OS operates here
2017-09-20T05:51:53Z loke: jmercouris: You are the one making the assumptions... Mine (and others?) position is that you can't make any assumptions at all, hence you have to distrust the entire process.
2017-09-20T05:51:56Z jmercouris: what if the different processes are on different machines? what if it is a distributed system?
2017-09-20T05:52:09Z jmercouris: loke: I agree with that
2017-09-20T05:52:20Z jmercouris: that is a position that makes sense to me, perhaps I misunderstood you earlier
2017-09-20T05:54:41Z Zhivago: If you can demonstrate that the corruption is localized ...
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2017-09-20T06:33:50Z jmercouris: I searched on quicklisp for (ql:system-apropos "queue")
2017-09-20T06:34:07Z jmercouris: how can I know that what I am looking at on github https://github.com/oconnore/queues is the same thing?
2017-09-20T06:34:32Z jmercouris: specifically this line; #<system queues.simple-queue / queues-20170124-git / quicklisp 2017-04-03>
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2017-09-20T08:04:08Z hajovonta: hello
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2017-09-20T08:27:17Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2017-09-20T09:18:30Z dim: Ober: I don't think I have safety/speed declarations in pgloader code, no
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2017-09-20T09:18:47Z dim: can't remember from the top of my head at least, and too lazy/buzy to grep ;-)
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2017-09-20T11:46:48Z michipili: Hello there! I am new to common lisp and just tried quicklisp. I am not sure how to convince quicklisp package installer to look for 3rd party (binary object) library in special locations.
2017-09-20T11:47:22Z Xach: michipili: that usually is a matter of informing CFFI where to look
2017-09-20T11:47:37Z Xach: michipili: but in my experience, it is easiest to try to put those libraries in standard system locations
2017-09-20T11:48:39Z michipili: My lisp system is sbcl intstalled over macports and resides in /opt/local/bin/sbcl, yet the quicklisp system does not find libraries under /opt/local/lib
2017-09-20T11:49:17Z antoszka: michipili: I don't know about macports, but had good success running sbcl (and others) with quicklisp from brew.
2017-09-20T11:49:38Z michipili: Thanks :)
2017-09-20T11:50:07Z antoszka: Though I only have a linux pc at hand at the moment, so can't look at my stuff immediately ;)
2017-09-20T11:50:31Z Xach: michipili: hmm, I don't know how that needs to be configured, sorry. for search purposes, it is not really a quicklisp issue - it is lower than that. it has to do with how the shared library loader (usually via cffi) searches, which also uses the underlying system configuration.
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2017-09-20T11:50:54Z michipili: The precise error message I get from ql is
2017-09-20T11:50:56Z michipili: Unable to load any of the alternatives:
2017-09-20T11:50:56Z michipili:    ((:FRAMEWORK "SDL2_image") (:DEFAULT "libSDL2_image"))
2017-09-20T11:50:56Z michipili:    [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR]
2017-09-20T11:51:51Z michipili: @Xach Well, I'm totally new to lisp and the corresponding environment so the tiniest bit of information is still helpful :)
2017-09-20T11:52:26Z antoszka: michipili: Have you actually got that library installed?
2017-09-20T11:52:33Z michipili: yes I do
2017-09-20T11:52:42Z michipili: ort contents libsdl2_image
2017-09-20T11:52:42Z michipili: Port libsdl2_image contains:
2017-09-20T11:52:43Z michipili:   /opt/local/include/SDL2/SDL_image.h
2017-09-20T11:52:43Z michipili:   /opt/local/lib/libSDL2_image-2.0.0.dylib
2017-09-20T11:52:43Z michipili:   /opt/local/lib/libSDL2_image.a
2017-09-20T11:52:43Z michipili:   /opt/local/lib/libSDL2_image.dylib
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2017-09-20T11:53:44Z Xach: michipili: you could try (push #p"/opt/local/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*)
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2017-09-20T12:00:14Z Xach: There is also an environment variable you can set before starting lisp, or within lisp
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2017-09-20T13:24:31Z rumbler31: michipili: coming from a lisp user on osx that also uses macports, try the push method Xach mentioned first. One way to do that is to quickload cffi first, then issue the above command, then quickload all other libraries.  On OSX usually the shared objects have their dependencies embedded as full hardcoded paths, so for macports shared objects I believe this should be enough.  The story changes on windows
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2017-09-20T13:26:55Z rumbler31: Generally, modifiying DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable is considered bad practice for reasons that are complicated to explain, which is what you would ostensibly do to tell osx where to find shared libraries that it normally can not.  If you go this route, then later use a gui like emacs to fire everything up, opening cocoa apps from finder does not import the login shell environment variables, so when emacs load
2017-09-20T13:26:55Z rumbler31: s lisp all of the dlopen calls for macports dependencies (ie the path in DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH) will fail
2017-09-20T13:27:27Z rumbler31: you have to open terminal and issue open /Applications/Emacs.app which will open the cocoa emacs app but inherit the environment properly
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2017-09-20T13:30:27Z rumbler31: or... set the environment variable in lisp and push forward from there
2017-09-20T13:30:36Z rumbler31: which I hadn't considered till now
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2017-09-20T16:53:14Z phoe_: I want to generate a RGB gradient as a list of triplets (r, g, b).
2017-09-20T16:53:46Z phoe_: What tool can I use for that job if I know the gradient's length? I thought of alexandria's LERP, but I've never used it yet.
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2017-09-20T16:54:11Z Bike: sounds like lerp to me.
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2017-09-20T17:30:48Z didi: So... Do you use the implicit PROGN of LOOP's do? e.g. (loop for x to 42 do (print x) (print (1+ x)))
2017-09-20T17:30:59Z Xach: didi: yes
2017-09-20T17:31:17Z didi: Xach: So I'm convinced.
2017-09-20T17:31:21Z didi: Thank you.
2017-09-20T17:32:56Z Xach: glad to help
2017-09-20T17:34:17Z didi: One more: If I want to add a key without a value to a hash table but I don't want to mess with any previously stored value of that key, I use (setf (gethash key hashtable) (gethash key hashtable)). Is there another way, as succinct?
2017-09-20T17:34:55Z aeth: phoe_: If you want an accurate gradient, you may want to change it into a different color space first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_space
2017-09-20T17:35:26Z aeth: There's probably one where lerp is a better fit than RGB and rgb->something-else->lerp-it->rgb is probably easier than doing fancier math
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2017-09-20T17:37:31Z scymtym: didi: a typical way would be (alexandria:ensure-gethash key table key)
2017-09-20T17:37:43Z didi: scymtym: Thanks.
2017-09-20T17:38:28Z didi: scymtym: The implementation looks more complex than mine.
2017-09-20T17:39:07Z didi: Uh, and it is a macro. Interesting.
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2017-09-20T17:40:56Z phoe_: didi: yes
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2017-09-20T17:41:36Z phoe_: aeth: I want to do whatever HTML5's canvas's createLinearGradient is doing.
2017-09-20T17:41:55Z dlowe: look up the function in chromium :)
2017-09-20T17:42:11Z dlowe: it might be in a shader, though
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2017-09-20T17:42:41Z dlowe: browsers are effectively just like game engines at this point
2017-09-20T17:43:20Z Xach: phoe_: for what it's worth, vecto has an RGB gradient function.
2017-09-20T17:43:40Z Xach: https://www.xach.com/lisp/vecto/#set-gradient-fill
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2017-09-20T17:46:35Z Xach: lerpy
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2017-09-20T17:49:26Z phoe_: Xach: ooh.
2017-09-20T17:50:09Z phoe_: basically, I need not the image itself, but the RGB values of individual colors along the way.
2017-09-20T17:50:19Z phoe_: but I guess I can first do the gradient and then read back the pixels.
2017-09-20T17:50:53Z Xach: so many options
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2017-09-20T18:09:10Z didi: How do I specify the type of a class' slot? Shouldn't (progn (defclass foo () ((foo-slot :initarg :foo-slot :type symbol))) (make-instance 'foo :foo-slot 42)) error?
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2017-09-20T18:10:32Z Xach: didi: depends on the implementation.
2017-09-20T18:10:41Z didi: Xach: oic
2017-09-20T18:13:19Z didi: So how do I enforce a slot type during instantiation?
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2017-09-20T18:18:57Z Xach: didi: check-type is one option
2017-09-20T18:19:03Z Xach: didi: in initialize-instance
2017-09-20T18:20:12Z _ark_: didi: There's no way to strictly enfore a class' slot type. Best you can do is type check in initialize-insance and with accessor/reader methods. Still, you can always set a slot to whatever you want by calling (setf (slot-value ...)). That might be good enough, but if you need strict enforcement you can use a struct instead of a class. Struct slot types are strictly enforced.
2017-09-20T18:20:49Z pjb: it depends on the implementation of course.
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2017-09-20T18:22:15Z pjb: #+ccl (defclass point () ((x :type fixnum  :initarg :x :accessor point-x))) (make-instance 'point :x 3.2) --> The value 3.2, derived from the initarg :x, can not be used to set the value of the slot x in #<point #x3020034C998D>, because it is not of type fixnum.
2017-09-20T18:22:20Z didi: Xach: Thank you. I tried (declare (type ... (foo-slot foo))) unsuccessfully.
2017-09-20T18:22:31Z _ark_: Yeah, I should add that I'm speaking only about sbcl.
2017-09-20T18:22:33Z didi: _ark_: I see.
2017-09-20T18:22:47Z pjb: _ark_: then you should speak in #sbcl…
2017-09-20T18:23:03Z didi: pjb: I see.
2017-09-20T18:23:13Z pjb: But it's correct, if you want to be sure it's checked, you have to do it explicitely in initialize-instance and in the setters.
2017-09-20T18:24:10Z pjb: and probably, more fun can also be having with the MOP…
2017-09-20T18:24:13Z scymtym: sbcl checks standard-object slot types with a sufficient safety optimization setting
2017-09-20T18:24:16Z didi: Hum, apparently I can't use `check-type' with slots with only a :reader. Never mind.
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2017-09-20T18:25:06Z pjb: didi: you would use check-type on the parameters of the setters and of initialize-instance.
2017-09-20T18:25:09Z didi: Ah, I can use `slot-value' instead of the :reader
2017-09-20T18:25:20Z pjb: You couldn't do that on slot-value, it would be too late!
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2017-09-20T18:25:32Z pjb: (the implementation may already have signaled an error).
2017-09-20T18:26:13Z pjb: (defmethod initialize-instance :before ((o your-class) &key to-be-checked &allow-other-keys)  (check-type to-be-checked type-of-the-thing))
2017-09-20T18:26:20Z didi: OK, this is going too deep for now. Thank you for all your help.
2017-09-20T18:26:49Z pjb: It's very simple, just write the mininum that has to be written: :before, your argument and the check-type. Nothing more!
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2017-09-20T18:27:03Z pjb: CLOS is very simple to use.
2017-09-20T18:29:18Z dim: everything is very simple once you know how to use it
2017-09-20T18:29:24Z dim: the problem is never this one
2017-09-20T18:29:28Z dim: the problem is getting there
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2017-09-20T18:33:14Z _ark_: didi: I find that approach to be the simplest.
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2017-09-20T20:05:46Z sebboh: This doesn't do what I expect: sbcl --noinform --eval '(progn (ql:quickload :grid :silent t) (grid:render "foo"))' --non-interactive
2017-09-20T20:06:02Z sebboh: It says package GRID doesn't exist.
2017-09-20T20:06:40Z sebboh: If I just start sbcl and evalute (ql:quickload :grid :silent t) followed by (grid:render "foo"), it works as expected.
2017-09-20T20:07:06Z dlowe: right. lisp code is read before it is executed
2017-09-20T20:07:09Z Bike: the entire progn is read at once
2017-09-20T20:07:16Z dlowe: and the packages must be in place to intern the symbols
2017-09-20T20:07:21Z Bike: so it reads the form, then (if it worked) would quickload grid, making the grid package available.
2017-09-20T20:07:26Z dlowe: fortunately, in sbcl, you can have more than one --eval
2017-09-20T20:07:30Z dlowe: and it will do what you want
2017-09-20T20:07:52Z sebboh: Oh, nice.  I'll do that, dlowe.  Thanks.
2017-09-20T20:08:40Z sebboh: Perfect.
2017-09-20T20:09:40Z phoe_: Xach: Limitations: No access to underlying pixel data
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2017-09-20T20:09:49Z phoe_: that's troublesome for me
2017-09-20T20:10:05Z phoe_: because I'd need to first render this as a PNG file, then read that file, then read the pixel valus
2017-09-20T20:10:10Z phoe_: which is a way around
2017-09-20T20:10:11Z XachX: phoe_: what is the context?
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2017-09-20T20:11:26Z phoe_: XachX: basically, I need to create a gradient purely in memory, in order to read the individual color values in between
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2017-09-20T20:11:39Z phoe_: like, color black at 0%, red at 50%, white at 100%
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2017-09-20T20:11:45Z phoe_: and I'd like to get the RGB value for the pixel at 20%
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2017-09-20T20:11:59Z XachX: phoe_: I suggested vector because it’s like 10 lines to implement.
2017-09-20T20:12:05Z XachX: Vecto rather
2017-09-20T20:12:21Z XachX: And it’s just lerps
2017-09-20T20:12:24Z phoe_: ...actually, I want to get all the color values for values from 0 to 255, given that the gradient is 256 pixxels long.
2017-09-20T20:12:46Z phoe_: Yep, I can see it, and it's doable - just, it's that part that I need to save a temporary file and then load it that itches me
2017-09-20T20:13:02Z XachX: To copy the code?
2017-09-20T20:13:26Z phoe_: Not to copy the code, to get the final rendered image.
2017-09-20T20:13:36Z XachX: Or if you used vecto, you could just ignore the :: and get what you need.
2017-09-20T20:13:43Z phoe_: You can only output the raster images as PNG, correct?
2017-09-20T20:13:51Z XachX: It’s in memory first.
2017-09-20T20:13:54Z phoe_: And not get them as ARGB data in-memory?
2017-09-20T20:13:56Z phoe_: Oh wait.
2017-09-20T20:14:01Z phoe_: Then I misunderstood it.
2017-09-20T20:14:07Z XachX: But I think it would be easier to just rip the code.
2017-09-20T20:14:16Z XachX: There is almost nothing to it.
2017-09-20T20:15:15Z phoe_: Rip the code from VECTO?
2017-09-20T20:15:26Z XachX: Yes.
2017-09-20T20:16:21Z phoe_: https://github.com/xach/vecto/blob/8659770bfdc460a1c6b07271a188ec6c19aad3ea/gradient.lisp#L48 hm.
2017-09-20T20:16:24Z phoe_: Looks like it.
2017-09-20T20:17:26Z XachX: The lambda does it. The rest is precomputing that you might not need.
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2017-09-20T20:19:48Z phoe_: Hah, I need to figure out how to use that lambda now. One second...
2017-09-20T20:20:14Z XachX: Your gradient is of fixed width?
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2017-09-20T20:23:05Z phoe_: Fixed width.
2017-09-20T20:23:08Z phoe_: 256 pixels always.
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2017-09-20T20:23:18Z phoe_: 255 alpha all the time.
2017-09-20T20:23:27Z phoe_: But it's a bit more complicated.
2017-09-20T20:23:33Z phoe_: My gradient will have multiple color stops.
2017-09-20T20:23:54Z phoe_: So it's like 0% one color, 4.76% another color, 5% yet another color, ..., 94% one more color, 100% last color.
2017-09-20T20:24:09Z phoe_: So I'll have to do multiple passes I think.
2017-09-20T20:24:39Z didi: So... improper lists. Too ugly?
2017-09-20T20:25:08Z phoe_: Huh? Ugly?
2017-09-20T20:25:14Z phoe_: What for?
2017-09-20T20:25:53Z didi: I have an weighted graph and I want to represent an edge as ((u . v) . weight).
2017-09-20T20:26:12Z didi: Hum. It is not an improper list, really.
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2017-09-20T20:27:37Z dlowe: why not just (u v weight)?
2017-09-20T20:27:47Z didi: dlowe: Because...
2017-09-20T20:27:58Z didi: v('.')v
2017-09-20T20:27:59Z dlowe: you have a computer with 64KB or ram?
2017-09-20T20:28:03Z dlowe: *of
2017-09-20T20:28:07Z didi: Probably.
2017-09-20T20:28:16Z didi: I need to look for it, tho.
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2017-09-20T20:28:40Z dlowe: There's few reasons to use an improper list these days.
2017-09-20T20:29:03Z didi: Understood.
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2017-09-20T20:29:28Z phoe_: (u v weight) sounds sane, just remember to keep a *print-length* at a sane value
2017-09-20T20:29:38Z phoe_: because printing a graph will then print it as a whole damn list
2017-09-20T20:29:46Z phoe_: so all of its children, too.
2017-09-20T20:30:06Z didi: Indeed. I learned *print-length* recently. Very nice feature.
2017-09-20T20:30:19Z phoe_: if you're worried about it, you can defstruct and still get good performance, and then define a print-object method on it that does not print everything like crazy.
2017-09-20T20:30:32Z phoe_: and if you want to use full CLOS trickery, go with defclass.
2017-09-20T20:30:46Z didi: Thank you, phoe_.
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2017-09-20T20:32:16Z phoe_: Or rather.
2017-09-20T20:32:43Z phoe_: Go with defclass, and if you feel that your performance suffers way too much AND that you are not using too much CLOS magic, then go for defstruct instead.
2017-09-20T20:33:00Z didi nods
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2017-09-20T20:37:03Z phoe_: XachX: actually, now that I think of it.
2017-09-20T20:37:18Z phoe_: I could use VECTO, if there was a way to get the in-memory vector of data *before* it's saved into a PNG.
2017-09-20T20:37:32Z phoe_: There's no exported function for that though, for getting the raw array of ARGB.
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2017-09-20T20:42:55Z phoe_: It seems that I can use an unexported IMAGE accessor, https://github.com/xach/vecto/blob/8659770bfdc460a1c6b07271a188ec6c19aad3ea/user-drawing.lisp#L332
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2017-09-20T20:46:39Z phoe_: there, https://github.com/xach/vecto/pull/7 <- catch a PR from me.
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2017-09-20T20:57:27Z phoe_: XachX: If I understand VECTO correctly, I can call SET-GRADIENT-FILL to describe what kind of gradient I want, and then call RECTANGLE to bound that gradient to a particular space on the canvas, so it doesn't draw the gradient all over the previous gradients I have created on that canvas. Is this correct?
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2017-09-20T23:03:15Z XachX: phoe_: yes.
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2017-09-20T23:34:56Z sebboh: What's that function that unsets a variable?
2017-09-20T23:36:22Z sebboh: makunbound I think.
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2017-09-20T23:38:49Z sebboh: unintern is what I actually wanted.
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2017-09-20T23:44:44Z Xach: phoe: that is not going to be merged, sorry. if you want image data, just use it.
2017-09-20T23:44:59Z Xach: phoe: when i change it in the future, use something else.
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2017-09-20T23:55:50Z didi: sebboh: C-c C-u on SLIME.
2017-09-21T00:00:24Z sebboh: ooh
2017-09-21T00:00:28Z sebboh: Thanks
2017-09-21T00:00:45Z didi: Very handy.
2017-09-21T00:02:21Z sebboh: hm, didn't work for some reason.  The UI prompted me to confirm the name of the thing I wanted to fmakunbound, but it still has a value...  Oh well, it's quittin' time. :)
2017-09-21T00:02:23Z sebboh: cya
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2017-09-21T01:32:15Z shrdlu68: What happens when you start sbcl in a terminal and paste this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356394 ?
2017-09-21T01:33:12Z shrdlu68: Specifically a terminal that interprets ANSI escape codes.
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2017-09-21T01:35:34Z shrdlu68: It returns an empty string, why?
2017-09-21T01:41:32Z shrdlu68: Same behavior in ccl.
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2017-09-21T01:46:20Z shrdlu68: Collecting the characters in a loop works-it reeturns a list of the characters.
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2017-09-21T05:23:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-21T05:24:32Z iqubic: Morning beach. How are you to
2017-09-21T05:24:41Z iqubic: *today?
2017-09-21T05:25:03Z basket: Good morning beach
2017-09-21T05:25:38Z beach: iqubic: Fine thank you.
2017-09-21T05:26:41Z beach: Yesterday, I think I figured out how to do partial inlining of local functions using local graph rewriting.
2017-09-21T05:26:44Z beach: It's a Cleavir thing.
2017-09-21T05:26:55Z iqubic: beach: how did you do it?
2017-09-21T05:27:18Z beach: How did I figure it out?  I thought real hard about it and then I drew some figures.
2017-09-21T05:27:55Z beach: http://metamodular.com/fig{1,2,3,4}.pdf
2017-09-21T05:28:52Z jmercouris: Good night everyone!
2017-09-21T05:29:07Z iqubic: beach: that link gave me a 404
2017-09-21T05:29:07Z beach: Good night jmercouris.
2017-09-21T05:29:29Z iqubic: beach: also, I meant what was the final solution to your problem.
2017-09-21T05:29:31Z beach: iqubic: That's because I was using Unix-style abbreviations for 4 links.
2017-09-21T05:29:42Z iqubic: Oh.
2017-09-21T05:29:45Z beach: http://metamodular.com/fig1.pdf
2017-09-21T05:29:51Z beach: http://metamodular.com/fig2.pdf
2017-09-21T05:29:54Z beach: http://metamodular.com/fig3.pdf
2017-09-21T05:29:57Z beach: http://metamodular.com/fig4.pdf
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2017-09-21T05:30:38Z iqubic: That sure does look like a graph alright.
2017-09-21T05:30:52Z iqubic: Not that I understand it at all. I don't
2017-09-21T05:31:06Z beach: It is a graph of HIR (High-level Intermediate Representation) instructions in Cleavir.
2017-09-21T05:31:22Z iqubic: What's is Cleavir?
2017-09-21T05:31:29Z beach: minion: Please tell iqubic about Cleavir.
2017-09-21T05:31:29Z minion: iqubic: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2017-09-21T05:31:34Z beach: minion: Please tell iqubic about SICL.
2017-09-21T05:31:34Z minion: iqubic: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2017-09-21T06:01:46Z jasom: "I thought real hard about it and then I drew some figures." minion has a quote db, right?  I think that's deserving
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2017-09-21T06:02:17Z beach: Heh.  Thanks, I guess.
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2017-09-21T06:17:45Z beach: In fact, that inlining technique creates functions with multiple entry points.  Such functions can not be expressed as Common Lisp source code, but there have been languages that allow such functions of course.
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2017-09-21T06:21:05Z loke: beach: Which languages are those? (except Assembler)
2017-09-21T06:21:10Z loke: Forth?
2017-09-21T06:21:17Z beach: PL/I comes to mind.
2017-09-21T06:21:36Z loke: That's cool... And references? I'd love to see how it's expressed.
2017-09-21T06:22:05Z beach: Hmm.  Give me a minute.  I programmed in Multics PL/I when I worked in industry.
2017-09-21T06:24:58Z beach: https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSY2VQ_2.0.0/com.ibm.aix.pli.doc/lsh-procedure.htm
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2017-09-21T06:26:56Z beach: I think I must stop posting links.  Freenode gave me a warning that my behavior looks like spam.
2017-09-21T06:29:33Z loke: beach: You don't post many links...
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2017-09-21T06:29:53Z loke: Wow... PLI looks crazy :-)
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2017-09-21T06:48:24Z shka_: how does that work? :/
2017-09-21T06:50:36Z beach: loke: Multics PL/I was great.
2017-09-21T06:51:17Z beach: loke: In fact, the exception handling of Multics PL/I inspired the Common Lisp condition system.
2017-09-21T06:51:22Z shka_: partial inlining
2017-09-21T06:51:30Z shka_: uh
2017-09-21T06:51:42Z shka_: mind blowing stuff
2017-09-21T06:51:43Z beach: shka_: Check the figures that I gave links to.
2017-09-21T06:51:52Z beach: I don't dare post them again.
2017-09-21T06:52:20Z shka_: i am looking at those right now
2017-09-21T06:52:28Z shka_: i don't understand the message, though
2017-09-21T06:52:45Z shka_: well, it is some sort of call graph
2017-09-21T06:52:50Z shka_: i assume
2017-09-21T06:53:09Z beach: Yes, pretty standard stuff in compiler design.
2017-09-21T06:53:18Z beach: ... except adapted to Common Lisp.
2017-09-21T06:53:43Z beach: I call it HIR, for High-level Intermediate Representation.
2017-09-21T06:54:04Z shka_: so on fig4
2017-09-21T06:54:26Z shka_: i have x
2017-09-21T06:54:58Z shka_: and this diagram shows me all the ways (car x) can be performed?
2017-09-21T06:55:26Z beach: shka_: On the left, you have a caller that does (car x).  On the right, you have the code for CAR.
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2017-09-21T06:56:18Z beach: In fig4, the code for CAR has been partially inlined, so that the test CONSP is done in the caller, as well as the CONS-CAR (which is like CAR but must be given a CONS cell).
2017-09-21T06:56:27Z shka_: so many interesting things to learn, so little time
2017-09-21T06:57:23Z beach: So the caller now tests for CONSP, and if it is a CONS it does the CONS-CAR.  Otherwise it calls the remaining CAR function that will test for NULL, etc.
2017-09-21T06:57:46Z beach: But I see an error in fig4.  The caller should not RETURN.  Just continue to the next instruction.
2017-09-21T06:57:59Z loke: beach: You're right. I recall reading about how Multics handled errors. It never dawned on me just how similar in concept CL is.
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2017-09-21T06:58:39Z loke: PLI is still used on ZOS, right?
2017-09-21T06:58:46Z beach: loke: It is documented by Kent Pitman.  He explicitly mentioned that PL/I is the inspiration for Common Lisp condition system.
2017-09-21T06:59:02Z beach: loke: I have no idea.  I only ever used PL/I on Multics.
2017-09-21T06:59:35Z loke: They do seem to setill market the products: https://www.ibm.com/ms-en/marketplace/pli-compiler-zos
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2017-09-21T07:10:43Z beach: shka_: I updated the figures, fixing a bug and adding a variable to be assigned to the result of the call to (CAR X).
2017-09-21T07:15:22Z fouric1: I'm attempting to read from a character special file (representing a keyboard I have attached to my machine), and READ-BYTE appears to be...buffering? my reads
2017-09-21T07:15:24Z fouric1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356411
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2017-09-21T07:16:15Z fouric1: That is, running the given snippet yields blocks of several hundred bytes at a time, which only occur after I've pressed several keys on the keyboard, and not as soon as I press a key.
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2017-09-21T07:16:34Z fouric1: This *suggests* buffering, but I'm not sure how to confirm that it is, how to determine *what* it is, or how to get around it.
2017-09-21T07:17:05Z fouric1 is now known as fouric
2017-09-21T07:17:23Z fouric: Any ideas?
2017-09-21T07:17:29Z shka_: beach: i got to go to work, have a good day!
2017-09-21T07:18:43Z beach: shka_: You too.
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2017-09-21T07:26:00Z Bike: clhs clear-input
2017-09-21T07:26:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clear_.htm
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2017-09-21T07:47:30Z hajovonta: good morning!
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2017-09-21T07:52:30Z spudinski: morning hajovonta!
2017-09-21T07:54:19Z beach: spudinski: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2017-09-21T07:55:09Z spudinski: yes! been on freenode for a while, joined here yesterday :)
2017-09-21T07:55:23Z beach: spudinski: Great!  What brings you to #lisp?
2017-09-21T07:57:10Z spudinski: I've got a strong affection towards lisp, I suppose.
2017-09-21T07:57:25Z beach: I see.
2017-09-21T07:57:49Z fouric: Bike: thank you for the suggestion; however, that appears to actually *clear* the buffer, instead of flushing it.
2017-09-21T07:58:09Z fouric: (that is, I lose all of the data that I would have otherwise gotten from the device)
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2017-09-21T09:11:32Z beach: I improved those figures and added three more.  I won't give the links again, because I am now targeted by some freenode bot that has decided I am a spammer.  So now it is fig1.pdf ... fig7.pdf.
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2017-09-21T10:54:55Z Posterdati: hi
2017-09-21T10:56:15Z loke: Hello Posterdati
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2017-09-21T10:56:54Z Posterdati: please II need to pretty print an object into a string without line feed or return inside the result. I used (format nil ...) but it adds #\Newline in the string
2017-09-21T10:57:00Z Posterdati: thanks
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2017-09-21T11:00:14Z beach: Why pretty print rather than ordinary print, if you don't want the newlines?
2017-09-21T11:01:00Z loke: Posterdati: You are aware that you can set *PRINT-PRETTY* to NIL, yes?
2017-09-21T11:01:47Z loke: You an also set *PRITN-RIGHT-MARGIN* to some absurdely large value, I guess.
2017-09-21T11:02:52Z Posterdati: loke: ag yes, print-pretty
2017-09-21T11:02:59Z Posterdati: thanks
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2017-09-21T11:08:52Z Posterdati: loke: solved! I did (let ((*print-pretty* nil)) ... )
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2017-09-21T11:12:20Z _death: fouric: like you want to use an fd-stream, which allows control of buffering, for that
2017-09-21T11:12:28Z _death: *likely
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2017-09-21T12:18:56Z michipili: Hi @Xach, @rumbler31 and all that helped me yesterday!  Unfortunately I have been banned by the server because of posting error logs, which was recognised as a flood. :)
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2017-09-21T12:30:36Z |3b|: is there any way to tell quicklisp to download a fresh copy of something?
2017-09-21T12:32:02Z |3b|: ah, looks like it keeps tgz, so i can just unpack that again
2017-09-21T12:32:03Z XachX: |3b|: uninstall plus clean perhaps. Then reload. But you could delete the files too.
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2017-09-21T12:52:04Z michipili: So I wanted to say thanks to all.
2017-09-21T12:53:08Z michipili: Admins at chat.freenode.net encouraged me to use pastebin for error logs.  I also could solve the issue by adding the following to my ~/.sbclrc
2017-09-21T12:53:55Z michipili: (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") (ql:quickload :cffi) (pushnew #P"/opt/local/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories* :test #'equal)
2017-09-21T12:54:12Z michipili: (All on one line because of anti-flood policy ;) )
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2017-09-21T12:56:06Z |3b|: many channels (including this one) agree about using pastebins :)
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2017-09-21T13:03:48Z rumbler31: use paste.lisp.org ;-) michipili: glad to hear you got it working
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2017-09-21T14:35:10Z didi: Can I `defsetf' an access-fn that is `defmethod'?
2017-09-21T14:35:59Z beach: DEFMETHOD does not create functions.  Do you mean a generic function?
2017-09-21T14:36:46Z Bike: you mean short form defsetf? i think that's okay.
2017-09-21T14:36:59Z beach: I am pretty sure it is.
2017-09-21T14:37:21Z Bike: but then you can't specialize the setf operator like you can the read operator.
2017-09-21T14:37:35Z Bike: well, no, i guess you can if you have the access-fn do it
2017-09-21T14:37:52Z Bike: seems simpler to just define the setf function yourself i guess.
2017-09-21T14:38:38Z beach: That's what I would do.
2017-09-21T14:39:18Z shrdlu68: Why does this with-output-to-string return an empty string? http://paste.lisp.org/display/356394
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2017-09-21T14:45:53Z beach: It doesn't here.
2017-09-21T14:46:02Z _death: it's not empty, just looks that way because you print an ansi sequence
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2017-09-21T14:47:10Z shrdlu68: It appears to be empty, the value of * is ""
2017-09-21T14:47:28Z beach: What if you do (length *) instead?
2017-09-21T14:47:37Z _death: (coerce * 'list)
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2017-09-21T14:49:37Z didi: Bike, beach: Sorry, I was AFK. So you wouldn't use `defsetf'? And sorry, but what do you mean by "define the setf function yourself"?
2017-09-21T14:50:05Z beach: (defun (setf bla) (new-value args) ...)
2017-09-21T14:50:28Z didi: Oh, interesting.
2017-09-21T14:50:36Z didi: I didn't know it was possible.
2017-09-21T14:50:45Z beach: clhs defun
2017-09-21T14:50:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm
2017-09-21T14:50:55Z didi: beach: Thank you.
2017-09-21T14:50:59Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-21T14:51:07Z beach: Click on "function name" in that page.
2017-09-21T14:51:07Z shrdlu68: I see, the length is indeed non-zero. But what's going on here? How is the ansi escape code preventing the value from printing properly?
2017-09-21T14:52:26Z _death: ansi escapes don't mean anything to CL, so when printed they are printed as-is
2017-09-21T14:53:10Z shrdlu68: Oh, the #\esc character must be the culprit.
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2017-09-21T14:55:23Z shrdlu68: Oh, the output is a complete ansi code, so when it's printed it get's "interpreted" by the terminal emulator.
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2017-09-21T15:11:44Z didi: (defun (setf ...) ...) worked like a charm. Now, is it possible to `setf' multiple values to the same place?
2017-09-21T15:13:31Z didi: Not in multiple calls to setf, but in one single call.
2017-09-21T15:13:39Z beach: Sure, if the place is VALUES: (setf (values x y z) (values 1 2 3))
2017-09-21T15:14:19Z dlowe: you can also just (setf x 1 y 2 z 3)
2017-09-21T15:15:01Z dlowe: or to the same place (for some unknown reason) (setf x 1 x 2 x 3)
2017-09-21T15:15:09Z didi: Say I want to store A, B, and C in the place P.  I could call (setf P (list A B C)), but the receiving end wouldn't know if it is a single value (a list) or 3 values (A, B, and C).
2017-09-21T15:15:45Z dlowe: didi: it would if you used listp on the place
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2017-09-21T15:16:28Z dlowe: didi: though it would be better design if you always used a list for whatever place.
2017-09-21T15:17:03Z didi: Hum, I will think about it. Thank you, dlowe.
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2017-09-21T15:18:36Z Bike: You can have your own places recieve multiple values as well
2017-09-21T15:18:55Z Bike: But not with a setf function, i don't think
2017-09-21T15:19:47Z pjb: didi: it is possible, but not with (setf …). Use define-setf-expander.
2017-09-21T15:19:53Z didi: Bike: oic.
2017-09-21T15:20:20Z didi: pjb: `define-setf-method'?
2017-09-21T15:20:36Z pjb: clhs define-setf-expander
2017-09-21T15:20:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm
2017-09-21T15:21:00Z didi: Ah, there is no `define-setf-method'. /me is reading cltl2
2017-09-21T15:21:08Z didi: pjb: Thanks.
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2017-09-21T15:21:42Z Bike: i'm not sure about receiving a variable number of values, come to think of it
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2017-09-21T15:25:23Z dlowe: (setf (values ...) ...) works, so there must be some support.
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2017-09-21T15:27:13Z Bike: But for that you can determine how many values there are based on the place
2017-09-21T15:27:50Z Bike: though it can take variable values in the way multiple value bind does, i guess
2017-09-21T15:28:39Z Bike: ...because multiple-value-bind is used for the store variables. right.
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2017-09-21T15:55:42Z didi: Thank you all. One more: Can I write an elaborate `incf'? I have an CLOSS object that has a complex structure, but it makes sense to (incf obj) it.
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2017-09-21T15:56:21Z pjb: didi: Bike: ok, so the problem is that you can accept a pre-determined number of multiple value, but there's no way to know (exactly) how many values you will be given!  It's implementation dependent how setf is implemented and how it stores the multiple value.  eg. in ccl, it (setf (mv x) (values 1 2 3)) will expand to a (multiple-value-bind (…) (values 1 2 3) …) so you cannot know how many values there are.  You can only fil
2017-09-21T15:56:21Z pjb: trailing NILs, but this could reduce the number of values (values 1 2 nil nil) are 4 values.
2017-09-21T15:56:59Z didi: Ah, scratch my last question. I need to think more about it.
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2017-09-21T15:57:12Z didi: pjb: oic
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2017-09-21T15:59:26Z didi: OK. `incf' just... worked. I will not complain.
2017-09-21T15:59:39Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356451
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2017-09-21T16:04:43Z |3b| would expect INCF to break on the + part rather than the SETF part for arbitrary objects :)
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2017-09-21T16:11:07Z Josh_2: Is there a Lisp alternative to uint_8 from C? I can make my own but I haven't written any lisp in a while so I'm struggling to remember anything
2017-09-21T16:11:38Z Bike: (unsigned-byte 8)
2017-09-21T16:11:47Z pjb: (deftype uint-8 () `(unsigned-byte 8))
2017-09-21T16:11:52Z Bike: not that lisp types are C types are the same thing
2017-09-21T16:12:40Z pjb: (make-array 4 :element-type 'uint-8 :initial-element 255) #| --> #(255 255 255 255) |#
2017-09-21T16:13:48Z Josh_2: Now I feel super stupid.
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2017-09-21T16:14:19Z Josh_2: I should have asked a more specific question.
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2017-09-21T16:16:47Z Bike: you still have time
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2017-09-21T16:17:10Z Josh_2: Okay, so I've got this C++, and I'm wondering if there is something with similar functionality already available. Where I don't have to set each value manually.
2017-09-21T16:17:21Z Josh_2: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356453
2017-09-21T16:17:41Z Josh_2: manually after creating the array of unsigned-bytes
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2017-09-21T16:18:20Z Bike: :initial-contents
2017-09-21T16:18:22Z pjb: (let ((width 330)) (make-array 3 :initial-content (list 0 2  width))) #| ERROR: Incorrect keyword arguments in (:initial-content (0 2 330)) . |#
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2017-09-21T16:18:28Z pjb: (let ((width 330)) (make-array 3 :initial-contents (list 0 2  width))) #| --> #(0 2 330) |#
2017-09-21T16:18:39Z Bike: why did... you paste the first one
2017-09-21T16:18:47Z pjb: The RET reflex.
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2017-09-21T16:19:32Z Josh_2: I didn't know you could do that with initial contents :D
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2017-09-21T16:25:41Z _death: heh.. I also wrote an /evalforuser command at some point
2017-09-21T16:26:29Z _death: pjb: (lisp-implementation-version) => "1.3.21.89-2e35f0256"
2017-09-21T16:27:16Z _death: but if it signals an error nothing is written
2017-09-21T16:28:47Z beach: Can (LOCALLY declaration* form*) always be replaced with (LET () declaration* form*)?
2017-09-21T16:29:45Z _death: no
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2017-09-21T16:31:17Z _death: (let ((a 42)) (locally (declare (type integer a)) ...)) ; here (let () (declare (type integer a)) ...) is bad
2017-09-21T16:31:38Z beach: I see.  Thanks.
2017-09-21T16:32:38Z beach: Seems to work in SBCL though.
2017-09-21T16:33:07Z Bike: i actually don't see the problem with that
2017-09-21T16:33:48Z didi uses (let ((a 42)) (declare (type integer a)) ...)
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2017-09-21T16:34:18Z Bike: that has mildly different semantics
2017-09-21T16:34:22Z beach: didi: The question is what happens when the variable in the declaration is free in the form.
2017-09-21T16:34:28Z Bike: (but it is the normal thing to write)
2017-09-21T16:34:30Z didi: beach: oic
2017-09-21T16:35:24Z beach: _death: Can you point to the Common Lisp HyperSpec page that made you say that?
2017-09-21T16:35:34Z _death: beach: looking for it
2017-09-21T16:35:42Z beach: Thanks.
2017-09-21T16:35:44Z beach: No rush.
2017-09-21T16:36:17Z beach: I need to go fix dinner, but I'll read up when I get back.
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2017-09-21T16:38:43Z Bike: _death: what is the difference between the two?
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2017-09-21T16:41:27Z pjb: locally says: Sequentially evaluates a body of forms in a lexical environment where the given declarations have effect.
2017-09-21T16:42:05Z pjb: AFAIK, all declarations in a LET forms are also lexically limited to the LET body.
2017-09-21T16:42:37Z beach: The forms of the body of a LET are not top-level forms but the ones in LOCALLY are.
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2017-09-21T16:42:53Z kenanb: hi folks!
2017-09-21T16:42:58Z beach: clhs 3.2.3.1
2017-09-21T16:42:58Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2017-09-21T16:43:02Z beach: Hello kenanb.
2017-09-21T16:43:21Z kenanb: hi beach!
2017-09-21T16:43:35Z pjb: beach: indeed.  That seems to be the only difference.  With respect to declarations themselves, it's the same.
2017-09-21T16:43:38Z beach assumed he was included in "folks".
2017-09-21T16:43:56Z beach: pjb: Yeah, that's what I think as well.
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2017-09-21T16:44:14Z dlowe: the magit dev made his kickstarter goal.  i wonder if this is a sustainable way to make a living.
2017-09-21T16:44:24Z kenanb: is there a format directive or a compound one that can justify (monospaced) text in typographical manner?
2017-09-21T16:44:35Z dlowe: kenanb: ~t
2017-09-21T16:44:39Z pjb: That said, a LET without bindings could also be considered a top-level body…
2017-09-21T16:45:06Z _death: Bike: I may have been wrong, still looking for relevant text
2017-09-21T16:45:08Z dlowe: kenanb: you might have to do some math yourself with some v arguments to it
2017-09-21T16:45:11Z beach: pjb: It could, but that's not what the fine document says.
2017-09-21T16:45:12Z Bike: locally is also a toplevel body, isn't it?
2017-09-21T16:45:12Z kenanb: as in emacs command fill-region with numerical argument
2017-09-21T16:45:26Z Bike: oh, but let isn't. right. right
2017-09-21T16:45:29Z beach: Right.
2017-09-21T16:45:58Z dlowe: kenanb: oh, nothing that high level
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2017-09-21T16:46:41Z dlowe: I have a *lot* of monospace text formatting stuff that I made for my MUD.  I should package it up into a library
2017-09-21T16:46:43Z kenanb: dlowe: yeah, I think I need to do way more than some math to make ~t justify like that :D
2017-09-21T16:46:43Z _death: Bike: but I always believed it to be invalid and never seen it in the wild..
2017-09-21T16:47:32Z dlowe: kenanb: you might like this, though: https://github.com/TempusMUD/cl-tempus/blob/master/src/support/editor.lisp#L157
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2017-09-21T16:49:11Z kenanb: dlowe: hmm, that is cool, yet I guess I will still need to implement it myself, this is standard word wrapping, doesn't actually do the stretching.
2017-09-21T16:49:11Z pjb: beach: My opinion is that if they had took the pain of writing some formal semantics, they would probably have unified those semantics.  For example,e clhs let repeats that the body is in an implicit progn, but this leaves out the declarations. It's not too explicit on the scope of the declarations…  Formally, they could have used bindings+locally and then (let () …) could have been equivalent to locally. (unless the wanted to
2017-09-21T16:49:11Z pjb: explicitely remove toplevelness in all cases).
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2017-09-21T16:49:54Z kenanb: dlowe: still, thank you for searching! this might indeed be a good start.
2017-09-21T16:50:04Z dlowe: kenanb: full justification is bad enough on proportional fonts.
2017-09-21T16:50:14Z dlowe: searching nothing. I wrote that. :p
2017-09-21T16:50:40Z kenanb: dlowe: damn! :D
2017-09-21T16:51:51Z kenanb: dlowe: yeah, I kinda agree. I once thought I might come up with a better full justification algorithm, I guess I will try that now.
2017-09-21T16:52:11Z didi: kenanb: Dynamic programming is your friend.
2017-09-21T16:52:25Z dlowe: If you want it to look really nice, you'd be better off implementing Knuth's word wrap that he uses for TeX
2017-09-21T16:53:05Z dlowe: full justification is just accumulating fractional error and inserting spaces at integer bounds.
2017-09-21T16:53:13Z kenanb: dlowe: you know, that is indeed a good idea, I am a huge sucker for TeX output. (not the TeX language tho)
2017-09-21T16:53:37Z pjb: In the differences between LET and LAMBDA: (let ((a 42)) "foo" (declare (type integer a))) is an error;  ((lambda (a) "foo" (declare (type integer a))) 42) returns nil.
2017-09-21T16:55:26Z Bike: _death: but what is invalid? just having a let inside another let...?
2017-09-21T16:56:31Z pjb: There's nothing invalid in that AFAIK.
2017-09-21T16:58:13Z pjb: And trying (disassemble (compile nil '(lambda () (let ((a 42)) (let () (declare (type fixnum a)) (the fixnum (truncate a 2))))))) in ccl and sbcl shows that the declaration is correctly taken into account.
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2017-09-21T17:01:22Z pjb: Now, since we're already inside a LET, (let (locally)) and (let (let ())) will be strictly equivalent, since there's no toplevelness there.
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2017-09-21T17:03:00Z kami: Good evening.
2017-09-21T17:04:59Z Josh_2: Just figured out that (write-byte ..) literally writes the integer as an entire byte, I actually do feel stupid now.
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2017-09-21T17:05:11Z Josh_2: Figured it out though.
2017-09-21T17:05:23Z Josh_2: Clears some things up for me.
2017-09-21T17:05:25Z Xach: CL uses the traditional definition of byte.
2017-09-21T17:05:26Z pjb: I'm not sure.
2017-09-21T17:05:34Z didi: Josh_2: Stop feeling stupid and start feeling enlighten. ;-)
2017-09-21T17:05:42Z pjb: Josh_2: do you know that CL bytes can be of any size?
2017-09-21T17:05:47Z Xach: when i mean 8-bit byte sometimes i define types for octets
2017-09-21T17:06:17Z Josh_2: Well it wrote them straight to 8-bit but the decimel integers don't go above 255
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2017-09-21T17:08:11Z pjb: (with-open-file (out "/tmp/21-bit-bytes.bin" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :element-type '(unsigned-byte 21)) (write-sequence (map 'vector 'char-code "Здра́вствуйте!") out)) #| --> #(1047 1076 1088 1072 769 1074 1089 1090 1074 1091 1081 1090 1077 33) |#  ; (uiop:run-program "od -t x1 /tmp/21-bit-bytes.bin")
2017-09-21T17:08:44Z Josh_2: There's a load of unicode In that I can't see
2017-09-21T17:09:03Z pjb: Josh_2: important: the format of the file is implementation dependent.
2017-09-21T17:09:07Z Bike: well luckily you have the char codes
2017-09-21T17:09:16Z pjb: Josh_2: compare the resulting file when created by sbcl and with created by clisp!
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2017-09-21T17:11:12Z pjb: Josh_2: now, assuming 8-bit-byte-based POSIX file-system, and assuming reasonable CL implementations, and assuming you use (unsigned-byte 8), it is expected that you can write files that can be read back by different implementations on the same 8-bit-byte-based POSIX file-system.
2017-09-21T17:12:04Z pjb: Josh_2: We can even expect being able to transfer those files to other POSIX systems wiht 8-bit-byte-based POSIX file-systems, and be able to read them back using reasonable CL implementations, and assuming you use (unsigned-byte 8).
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2017-09-21T17:13:01Z pjb: But that's really the most we hope for.  Don't try signed-byte, don't try other byte sizes.  Don't try other systems (certainly not 36-bit-word-based systems, they often use 6-bit or 9-bit bytes…).
2017-09-21T17:13:40Z Josh_2: It's cool I don't plan on using anything else haha
2017-09-21T17:14:01Z pjb: You'd be surprised sometimes…
2017-09-21T17:14:04Z Josh_2: It's cool that CL lets you choose whatever size byte you want out of the box
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2017-09-21T17:14:42Z pjb: Yes.  Notably, clisp which pack bits, so you can get small files
2017-09-21T17:15:12Z Josh_2: I'm compiling clisp now so I can see the difference
2017-09-21T17:15:14Z pjb: The only problem with clisp is when your byte size is not a multiple of 8, it needs a header to indicate how many bits are used in the last octet.
2017-09-21T17:15:59Z pjb: But the advantage is that if you have to write small bytes (1 to 7 bits), it gives smaller files.  You can read and write files bit by bit :-)
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2017-09-21T17:16:33Z Josh_2: Small files that nothing can read :P
2017-09-21T17:16:34Z _death: beach, Bike: ok, after reading http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss096_w.htm (which also says the LEXICAL proposal passed), I now believe that such declarations are ordinary "free declarations" and are allowed
2017-09-21T17:17:30Z pjb: Josh_2: well, clisp ensures it can read its files on all the platforms it runs on.  So notably it always write binary files in little-endian, so you can exchange them between MS-Windows and Linux or Darwin.
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2017-09-21T17:18:59Z pjb: Well, I assume you could design a custom declaration where its semantics would be different in let let than in let locally…
2017-09-21T17:20:06Z pjb: Basically, a declaration applies on the whole form. So if the whole form is different, the declaration may apply differently.
2017-09-21T17:20:47Z pjb: But it's probably a case similar to side effects in macros…
2017-09-21T17:20:57Z pjb: ie. don't do it, or make it idempotent.
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2017-09-21T17:29:20Z jmercouris: hey everyone, I just wanted to say, thank you for the support you've given me these past few months
2017-09-21T17:29:41Z jmercouris: with that I've released v0.02 of nEXT, which I've posted about it in the lisp subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/71kpzu/next_browser_ver_002/
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2017-09-21T17:55:53Z jasom: jmercouris: neat; what are you using for rendering the html?
2017-09-21T17:56:03Z jmercouris: jasom: QT has a webview
2017-09-21T17:56:18Z jmercouris: jasom: I thought it would be too much work to make the chrome as well as the rendering engine
2017-09-21T17:56:44Z jasom didn't know QT had a webview; I assume it uses the OS'es native webview on mobile?
2017-09-21T17:57:43Z jmercouris: jasom: It's based on webkit, though there is a newer webengine based one
2017-09-21T17:58:14Z jmercouris: jasom: I'm not sure what it does on mobile, but nEXT is designed for OS X, Linux, and Windows, mobile support is kind of out the door because it relies on the keyboard
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2017-09-21T17:59:31Z dlowe: jmercouris: no NeXT support?
2017-09-21T17:59:43Z jmercouris: dlowe: I'm afraid not :P
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2017-09-21T18:11:14Z cgay: Hi folks. Anyone know the status of EuLisp these days? Any active work on it? Use of it? For some reason I never really took notice of it before but it looks very appealing.
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2017-09-21T18:13:12Z dlowe: The people in ##lisp might know
2017-09-21T18:13:58Z cgay: Heya dlowe. What's the difference between #lisp and ##lisp?
2017-09-21T18:14:34Z dlowe: The topic of #lisp is Common Lisp, while ##lisp is for discussion of the lisp family as a whole.
2017-09-21T18:14:49Z dlowe: Like most things in lisp, the oddity boils down to historical reasons.
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2017-09-21T18:16:03Z cgay: Thanks.
2017-09-21T18:16:09Z dlowe: EuLisp looks even more dead than Dylan, though ;)
2017-09-21T18:16:26Z dlowe: "Latest implementation" which is a "resurrection" has a last commit date of 2010
2017-09-21T18:16:35Z cgay: Yeah. :(
2017-09-21T18:17:09Z cgay: But it looks so similar to Dylan (from a glance at the wikipedia entry) that I'm shocked I never looked at it before.
2017-09-21T18:17:13Z dlowe: Sorry.  2011.  The last commit is "Updated TODO" which is poetically melancholy
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2017-09-21T18:20:57Z cgay: Probably silly to have even asked, given "There is an FTPable copy [of the spec] available [in .ps and .dvi]"
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2017-09-21T18:25:38Z beach: _death: OK, got it.  Thanks for doing the work.
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2017-09-21T18:47:42Z Xach: Peter Seibel's talk on CL history has some interesting bits on EuLisp.
2017-09-21T18:48:23Z jasom: Xach: is that the one where someone from the US intentionally started bikesheding on the name?
2017-09-21T18:48:32Z Xach: yes
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2017-09-21T18:51:19Z Fare: design by committee is, well, design by committee.
2017-09-21T18:51:50Z Fare: cgay: hi!
2017-09-21T18:53:26Z _death: beach: thanks for making me update my model :)
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2017-09-21T18:56:38Z cgay: Hi Fare. :)
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2017-09-21T19:04:58Z shka_: any reason why alexandria:emptyp is defined only for sequences and not for hash table?
2017-09-21T19:05:07Z shka_: Fare: hello
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2017-09-21T19:07:09Z cgay: Fixed in Dylan.
2017-09-21T19:08:12Z cgay: (sorry, couldn't stop myself. won't happen again.)
2017-09-21T19:09:17Z dlowe: shka_: seems reasonable to do (zerop (hash-table-count ...)) if you need it
2017-09-21T19:09:33Z shka_: that's not even the point
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2017-09-21T19:09:46Z shka_: i wanted to add emptyp to my library,
2017-09-21T19:09:52Z shka_: but alexandria already has it
2017-09-21T19:09:53Z francogrex: me and common lisp and types = fail
2017-09-21T19:10:06Z francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356471 how come?
2017-09-21T19:10:15Z shka_: so i figured out: why not just defmethod on that
2017-09-21T19:10:33Z dlowe: shka_: the alternatives are to not use alexandria or not (USE-PACKAGE #:alexandria)
2017-09-21T19:10:36Z francogrex: (setf (test-age *test-inst*) "aavc") is acceptable and make-array gives elements 0 ?
2017-09-21T19:10:56Z shka_: but then i look at description and i see that it is for sequences ONLY
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2017-09-21T19:11:37Z shka_: dlowe: that misses the point, i wanted to write library that integrates nicely with the rest of the world
2017-09-21T19:11:45Z francogrex: or are types just embellishments in lisp?
2017-09-21T19:11:54Z shka_: so i'm trying to NOT duplicate anything
2017-09-21T19:12:03Z mfiano: type declarations in Common Lisp are not enforced...they are merely a suggestion to the compiler.
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2017-09-21T19:12:52Z shka_: francogrex: make-array has additional argument to set initial content
2017-09-21T19:12:53Z dlowe: shka_: name it empty-hash-table-p or send a change to alexandria to have it changed to a method. Or send a change to alexandria to add hash table support.
2017-09-21T19:13:10Z dlowe: type declarations in Common Lisp are *promises* to the compiler.
2017-09-21T19:13:13Z francogrex: we're not talking about initial-content
2017-09-21T19:13:28Z shka_: dlowe: i actually think that i should that
2017-09-21T19:13:29Z dlowe: "I really promise I will only put a fixnum in this spot."
2017-09-21T19:13:45Z shka_: send patch to alexandria, that is
2017-09-21T19:13:46Z francogrex: and he doesn't
2017-09-21T19:14:07Z francogrex: even with debug at 3
2017-09-21T19:14:36Z mfiano: You would have to loop over the array. It is unclear exactly what you expect that code to do though.
2017-09-21T19:14:50Z mfiano: shared structure or not etc
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2017-09-21T19:16:00Z _death: shka: it's unlikely to be incorporated.. alexandria is meant to be conservative, and I never saw an emptyp function that cares about hash-tables
2017-09-21T19:16:23Z _death: shka: nor do I remember the last time I needed to know if a hash-table is empty or not..
2017-09-21T19:17:32Z mfiano: most languages don't have a hash table length function.
2017-09-21T19:18:09Z jmercouris: mfiano: yeah they do, len(hashinstance.keys)
2017-09-21T19:18:18Z mfiano: err
2017-09-21T19:18:29Z mfiano: sorry empty check
2017-09-21T19:18:47Z shka_: mfiano: really?
2017-09-21T19:19:02Z mfiano: common lisp has hash-table-count too i believe, but i don't think i've used this more than a handful in a decade of use
2017-09-21T19:20:46Z shka_: ruby has, C++ has, java has ...
2017-09-21T19:22:16Z francogrex: let's try this for illustration: (let ((array (make-array 3 :element-type 'testclass))) (setf (aref array 0) *TEST-INST*))
2017-09-21T19:22:20Z shka_: in fact i would say that majority of languages actually have some sort of check if this thing is empty function
2017-09-21T19:22:40Z francogrex: result: caught STYLE-WARNING: The default initial element 0 is not a TESTCLASS
2017-09-21T19:22:44Z francogrex: WTF?
2017-09-21T19:22:53Z Bike: what version is your sbcl, francogrex?
2017-09-21T19:23:08Z Bike: that's a known bug, i think it was fixed
2017-09-21T19:23:09Z francogrex: 1.2.7
2017-09-21T19:23:16Z francogrex: ah
2017-09-21T19:23:18Z francogrex: ok
2017-09-21T19:23:32Z shka_: is it bug?
2017-09-21T19:23:33Z francogrex: let's update then
2017-09-21T19:23:39Z francogrex: it should be
2017-09-21T19:23:44Z shka_: right
2017-09-21T19:23:49Z Bike: shka_: yes, there's no reason for the style warning.
2017-09-21T19:24:00Z shka_: hm, ok
2017-09-21T19:25:52Z Fare: beach: are you here? vyzo & I would like to add features to Gerbil's object system, hopefully getting it on par with CLOS (though maybe with C3 linearization by default).
2017-09-21T19:26:15Z cgay: clhs make-array
2017-09-21T19:26:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2017-09-21T19:27:02Z Fare: shka: you can shadow easily using uiop:define-package and :mix clauses
2017-09-21T19:27:36Z shka_: Fare: it is ok for me, but I want users of my library to be happy
2017-09-21T19:27:40Z Fare: also lil has an empty-p that should work on hash-tables.
2017-09-21T19:28:01Z shka_: yeah, i had empty-p as well
2017-09-21T19:28:03Z Fare: shka: if you're going to write data structures, maybe you'll enjoy lil
2017-09-21T19:28:31Z shka_: i seen lil, it is interesting but i don't agree with API design sadly
2017-09-21T19:28:38Z Fare: I wouldn't write data structures in anything less.
2017-09-21T19:28:56Z Fare: shka: what don't you like about lil's design?
2017-09-21T19:30:38Z shka_: interface passing style is very useful when implementing data structures (very nice way to separate abstract and concrete data types) but I consider it to be cumbersome for library user
2017-09-21T19:31:50Z shka_: so although i am doing lil-like stuff under the hood, actual API is rather conventional object oriented code
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2017-09-21T19:34:43Z shka_: Fare: on the other hand, i am really glad that I read your blog post describing lil, it was deeply enlightening
2017-09-21T19:35:54Z Fare: shka: you realize that lil has a macro to drop the interface-passing style
2017-09-21T19:36:04Z shka_: i do
2017-09-21T19:36:26Z Fare: so you can *define* your library using the full power of interface-passing style, yet expose a monomorphic and/or OO interface to your users.
2017-09-21T19:37:10Z shka_: hmmm
2017-09-21T19:37:27Z shka_: I may reconsider this after all
2017-09-21T19:37:44Z Fare: this can be useful when bootstrapping more elaborate data structures from simpler ones
2017-09-21T19:37:58Z shka_: yeah, i see that
2017-09-21T19:38:18Z emaczen: I'm looping, creating arrays of size 1024 and then writing these arrays to a file with #'map and #'write-char. Most of the time my file sizes are multiples of 1024 -- why would a few files not be multiples of 1024?
2017-09-21T19:38:22Z shka_: actually that's why I am doing interface passing stuff underneath
2017-09-21T19:38:38Z Fare: emaczen: why not use write-sequence ???
2017-09-21T19:38:52Z emaczen: Fare: didn't think of it
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2017-09-21T19:39:04Z Fare: or, if it's strings, write-string
2017-09-21T19:39:13Z shka_: it is tough to make nested functional data structures without it
2017-09-21T19:39:19Z Fare: also, UTF-8
2017-09-21T19:39:37Z emaczen: Fare: How do I ensure UTF-8 -- I was thinking it could be a potential character-encoding issue?
2017-09-21T19:40:34Z Fare: emaczen, I don't know what you're trying to do, but uiop and asdf-encodings give you portable ways to deal with file encodings
2017-09-21T19:40:57Z shka_: needless to say, I understand motivation behind lil design after fighting similar problems
2017-09-21T19:41:01Z Fare: uiop has utf-8 support out of the box, for more encodings try asdf-encodings
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2017-09-21T19:41:43Z Fare: the next step after lil would be a linear lisp, in which all the data structure styles would be actually isomorphic at the language level.
2017-09-21T19:41:57Z emaczen: I just think I'm writing characters to a file
2017-09-21T19:42:09Z emaczen: I think the size of each character is 1 byte
2017-09-21T19:42:36Z Fare: shka: you should see the amazing things that ekmett does with type classes. You could do the same with lil.
2017-09-21T19:42:55Z shka_: eh, ok, ok
2017-09-21T19:43:36Z shka_: Fare: I will reconsider everything
2017-09-21T19:44:02Z shka_: btw
2017-09-21T19:44:31Z shka_: Fare: those LIL has any official communication channel to ask design questions?
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2017-09-21T19:50:36Z Fare: shka_, so far, only email to me or issues on github
2017-09-21T19:50:47Z shka_: ok
2017-09-21T19:50:51Z Fare: there was never enough interest to create a mailing-list.
2017-09-21T19:51:00Z shka_: fair enough
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2017-09-21T19:53:28Z shka_: I will try to analyze how to actually implement lil interfaces
2017-09-21T19:55:11Z Fare: they are already implemented
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2017-09-21T19:55:40Z shka_: not for my HAMT
2017-09-21T19:56:14Z Fare: what's HAMT ?
2017-09-21T19:56:21Z shka_: hash array mapped trie
2017-09-21T19:56:26Z Fare: oh, nice
2017-09-21T19:56:33Z shka_: essentially functional hash table
2017-09-21T19:56:56Z Fare: doesn't lil already offer that?
2017-09-21T19:57:56Z shka_: there is something called map, not sure what it does
2017-09-21T19:58:48Z shka_: anyway, i doubt that it does same wonky stuff i do
2017-09-21T19:59:12Z shka_: so it may be not wasted effort
2017-09-21T20:01:01Z Fare: I have a trie interface
2017-09-21T20:01:24Z Fare: and a pure hash-table where buckets are alists and the bucket map is a trie
2017-09-21T20:01:40Z shka_: well, that would be it
2017-09-21T20:01:49Z shka_: you have hash array mapped trie
2017-09-21T20:01:56Z shka_: bravo you
2017-09-21T20:01:58Z francogrex: Bike: even with SBCL 1.3.21 i still get the style warn error :( but also maybe my build was not great: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356473
2017-09-21T20:03:30Z Fare: although I believe my default hash table just use AVL trees.
2017-09-21T20:03:32Z shka_: my implementation is a little bit niche because it allows for transactional style insert, and therefore lazy implementation can minimize consing due to copy-on write
2017-09-21T20:03:40Z Fare: but that's parametrizable, of course
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2017-09-21T20:04:42Z Fare: not sure what exactly you mean, but yes, that's what tries are vs AVL, they have more "canonical" forms so allow for more sharing.
2017-09-21T20:05:10Z shka_: uh, i don't have any "done" stuff to offer
2017-09-21T20:05:37Z shka_: but i have a half-baked tree for search in metric space
2017-09-21T20:05:42Z shka_: GNAT it is called
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2017-09-21T20:06:09Z shka_: perhaps i can add that
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2017-09-21T20:06:28Z Bike: francogrex: it might be unfixed then. i think there's already a bug
2017-09-21T20:06:29Z Fare: I was thinking of doing hash-consing with tries, but didn't go that far
2017-09-21T20:07:04Z shka_: hash-consing?
2017-09-21T20:07:05Z francogrex: hmm ok. not that dramatic though, just a style warning
2017-09-21T20:08:16Z Bike: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1060724
2017-09-21T20:08:18Z Bike: might be it
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2017-09-21T20:12:03Z francogrex: yep, that's it indeed
2017-09-21T20:12:25Z francogrex: it's ok though
2017-09-21T20:12:35Z francogrex: we can live with it
2017-09-21T20:13:39Z shka_: Fare: anyway, whole trick with HAMT is to store fixed (32 for instance) number of children in each node, each representing part of the hash (5 bits in the example), then adding 32 bit mask with 1 bits on positions that actually hold children
2017-09-21T20:14:37Z shka_: this way you can use combination of logcount and ldb to map hash onto into positions in vector
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2017-09-21T20:15:31Z jasom: Fare: HAMT is a fixed fan-out trie where you hash the keys before insertion
2017-09-21T20:15:35Z shka_: it is pretty nice because it is simple, hash can be as long as you want, it does not take whole lot of space, does not need rehashing, can be made unmutable and stuff
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2017-09-21T20:16:23Z shka_: actually it is quite common nowdays
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2017-09-21T20:17:04Z shka_: lot's of people around few novel semifunctional languages use it
2017-09-21T20:17:46Z Fare: shka: I was using binary trie with special encoding for sparse subtrees.
2017-09-21T20:17:59Z jasom: Fare: that sounds like a crit-bit trie
2017-09-21T20:18:33Z jasom: https://cr.yp.to/critbit.html
2017-09-21T20:19:05Z shka_: sounds like it may take a little bit of space
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2017-09-21T20:19:39Z jasom: shka_: overhead of two words per key in one implementation.
2017-09-21T20:19:54Z shka_: that is not a lot actually
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2017-09-21T20:20:44Z jasom: shka_: that implementation does use the lowest-order bit of the pointer for tagging, but is otherwise pretty straightforward
2017-09-21T20:20:45Z shka_: jasom: it is kinda cool, never heard about those before
2017-09-21T20:22:36Z shka_: jasom: great, now i wanna write my own implementation xD
2017-09-21T20:26:33Z jasom: shka_: I did an implementation way back; ~2x slower than sbcl's eql hash tables for integers and ~3x for #'equal hash-tables for strings
2017-09-21T20:26:45Z jasom: this was a pure CBT, not a hash-mapped one
2017-09-21T20:26:56Z shka_: that is actually pretty good
2017-09-21T20:27:17Z jasom: removes were actuall faster (I think sbcl doesn't shrink on remove perhaps?)
2017-09-21T20:27:17Z shka_: can you share your code?
2017-09-21T20:27:51Z jasom: sure, I don't know how goot it is, I was a lisp noob at the time I think
2017-09-21T20:27:57Z jasom: I don't even remember when I wrote it
2017-09-21T20:28:12Z shka_: it's ok
2017-09-21T20:30:07Z jasom: ugh, 50x slower on ccl versus ccl builtin.  Probably because of all the bitwise operations
2017-09-21T20:30:23Z shka_: this can be it
2017-09-21T20:30:39Z shka_: sbcl bitwise operations seems to be fast
2017-09-21T20:31:02Z jasom: also 1GB of consing on ccl and ~65kB of consing on sbcl for the same code
2017-09-21T20:31:15Z jasom obviously only tuned for sbcl
2017-09-21T20:31:17Z shka_: :D
2017-09-21T20:31:24Z shka_: yeah, i know that feel
2017-09-21T20:31:34Z shka_: i have same stuff with HAMT
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2017-09-21T20:31:53Z jasom: does sbcl have efficient implementation of popcnt?
2017-09-21T20:31:59Z shka_: yes
2017-09-21T20:32:06Z shka_: logcount
2017-09-21T20:32:17Z shka_: it actually uses popcnt underneath
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2017-09-21T20:32:51Z jasom: ah ,strings are only 4x sloer than hash-tables it's purely fixnums that my critbit tree loses so badly on
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2017-09-21T20:33:12Z shka_: for lookup or for inserts?
2017-09-21T20:33:43Z jasom: inserts
2017-09-21T20:33:57Z jasom: hmm I bet I used unsigned-byte 64 rather than fixnum, let me check
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2017-09-21T20:35:29Z shka_: jasom: i feel very sleepy
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2017-09-21T20:35:58Z shka_: good night
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2017-09-21T20:35:58Z jasom: oops, I'm actually more than 2x slower; I didn't run the benchmark code by itself for subtraction
2017-09-21T20:36:09Z jasom: shka_: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ebcea5207209e1ef3678d7a3ef279ad0 for when you are interested
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2017-09-21T20:36:34Z shka_: cool, thanks
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2017-09-21T20:37:39Z shka_: jasom: do you mind if i use parts of it in my own code?
2017-09-21T20:37:50Z jasom: shka_: consider it under an MIT license
2017-09-21T20:38:00Z jasom: MIT/X11 that is
2017-09-21T20:38:01Z shka_: nice because that's what i am using
2017-09-21T20:38:06Z shka_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures
2017-09-21T20:38:09Z jasom: it's my default license
2017-09-21T20:38:10Z shka_: that's the repo btw
2017-09-21T20:38:15Z shka_: heh, same here
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2017-09-21T20:39:57Z shka_: btw, if you feel like wanna contribute to cl-ds, feel free to do so
2017-09-21T20:40:19Z dim: Xach: what's the deal with rename-file? I usually use (uiop:make-pathname* :name "bar" :type nil :defaults foo), is that possible for you?
2017-09-21T20:40:23Z shka_: this weekend, i am planning to improve documentation a little bit
2017-09-21T20:41:02Z shka_: because of cl-ds:position-modification insanity popped up, and this REALLY need explanation
2017-09-21T20:41:18Z Xach: dim: the deal is that i don't think there is a way to make a pathname target that does not take the pathname-type of its source on clisp.
2017-09-21T20:41:47Z Xach: dim: on other implementations, it is done with :unspecific, meaning "no type and don't merge into it", on some implementations.
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2017-09-21T20:44:35Z dim: oh
2017-09-21T20:44:46Z dim: sounds like a bug?
2017-09-21T20:45:57Z Xach: dim: I don't think so. I think the CLISP behavior is permitted by the standard.
2017-09-21T20:46:21Z Xach: dim: CLISP has many other behaviors that are permitted but annoying. (In different, more annoying ways than, say, SBCL)
2017-09-21T20:47:02Z Bike: annoying can still be a bug.
2017-09-21T20:47:13Z Bike: guess it doesn't matter if noone's taking reports though.
2017-09-21T20:47:28Z jasom: clisp's mailing list is active now
2017-09-21T20:48:41Z dim: that would have been the next question. why CLISP?
2017-09-21T20:49:35Z pjb: Xach: this is what is specified!
2017-09-21T20:49:42Z Xach: dim: Oh, trying to make a ported function that can rename "foo.txt" to "bar". That meant testing, and when I got to CLISP, this came up.
2017-09-21T20:49:50Z pjb: clhs rename-file
2017-09-21T20:49:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_fil.htm
2017-09-21T20:50:34Z pjb: It is an error to specify a filename containing a wild component, for filespec to contain a nil component where the file system does not permit a nil component, or for the result of defaulting missing components of new-name from filespec to contain a nil component where the file system does not permit a nil component.
2017-09-21T20:50:36Z Xach: I never knew that :unspecific was not broadly supported, so it made me wonder if there was an alternative on CLISP.
2017-09-21T20:50:46Z dim .oO(who bets pjb has an AGPL or GPLv3 lib with a portable rename-file that handle that case even in CLISP)
2017-09-21T20:51:15Z pjb: You'd lose.  For pathnames I tried to make implementation work the same on the same platform.
2017-09-21T20:51:40Z dim: pjb: on what filesystems is the :type component not permitted?
2017-09-21T20:51:49Z dim: I mean it being nil, sorry
2017-09-21T20:51:56Z Xach: It's also become a little academic - I'm not looking for "how to do this on clisp by any means necessary" but "am i missing something in clisp that would make rename-file work the way i wish"
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2017-09-21T20:52:12Z pjb: There are several libraries in quicklisp that already deal with patnames…
2017-09-21T20:52:20Z dim: Xach: that part I understood yeah ;-)
2017-09-21T20:52:31Z Bike: not being able to rename files to have no extension seems pretty silly
2017-09-21T20:52:35Z dim: pjb: uiop came to have my preference
2017-09-21T20:52:59Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2017-09-21T20:53:57Z Xach: Bike: It seems silly enough to me to believe I have missed something.
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2017-09-21T20:54:19Z Xach: But that belief has faded away.
2017-09-21T20:54:57Z jasom: minion: memo for shka: an interesting data-structure (though not necessarily of practical use over 2,4 or red-black trees) is discussed here: http://user.it.uu.se/~arnea/abs/gb.html
2017-09-21T20:54:58Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-21T20:56:53Z pjb: Bike: to understand that you have to understand that clisp provides a uniform API on all its target systems, which include(s|ed) MS-DOS, MS-Windows, Amiga, etc, in addition to unix system.  On MS-DOS all pathnames have a type!
2017-09-21T20:57:17Z pjb: #P"FOO." and #P"FOO" designate the same file in MS-DOS.
2017-09-21T20:57:28Z pjb: I guess we could report a bug, since they don't in clisp on unix…
2017-09-21T20:58:17Z pjb: But again, I see no real point in patching pathnames or file system primitives, until we agree on a way to deal with physical pathnames in a common way on the same target platforms.
2017-09-21T20:59:14Z emaczen: how do I "set" the file encoding? I'm writing 1024 byte blocks to a file and after each disk write I have ensured that the file-length is a multiple of 1024. I guess this means that linux has added some extra bytes to my file?
2017-09-21T20:59:24Z emaczen: or the OS I should say
2017-09-21T20:59:26Z pjb: emaczen: specifying a :external-format
2017-09-21T20:59:48Z pjb: emaczen: binary files are binary.
2017-09-21T20:59:52Z dim: maybe you need :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) ?
2017-09-21T21:00:10Z shrdlu68 Hmm, so setting a terminal in "raw' mode is something mediated by the OS, a syscall. I was hoping it was something that could be done through ANSI ecsape codes.
2017-09-21T21:00:12Z jasom: on a related node, is there a trivial-external-formats (or some such) for generating portable code that uses :external-format?
2017-09-21T21:00:34Z pjb: shrdlu68: you could write a unix terminal device driver to do that.
2017-09-21T21:01:01Z emaczen: pjb: ahh I'll check my *info* page for with-open-file
2017-09-21T21:01:11Z dim: jasom: have a look at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils/charsets.lisp for some fun and an elaborated “I don't think so” answer
2017-09-21T21:01:12Z pjb: shrdlu68: or at least a terminal emulator. Eg. xterm can switch to tek terminals that are binary.
2017-09-21T21:02:07Z pjb: or com.informatimago.clext.character-sets and com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.character-sets for a "portable" way.
2017-09-21T21:02:28Z shrdlu68: pjb: I'd have to use termios, or some such, it seems.
2017-09-21T21:02:42Z pjb: Once upon a time, cl-charms was in quicklisp.
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2017-09-21T21:04:11Z dim: I tried and failed to have a ncurses CL ffi lib to display unicode chars
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2017-09-21T21:04:27Z dim: apparently they usually don't support the wchar_t based internals
2017-09-21T21:04:53Z shrdlu68: I was trying to do this without having to rely on curses, and using only lisp. Final barrier is that I can't get the terminal to switch modes, such as disabling local echo.
2017-09-21T21:05:32Z pjb: Well you can always re-implement curses in CL: just go parse and read terminfo or termcap, depending on what's available on your system…
2017-09-21T21:05:45Z dim: ⚑ and ♣ for a minesweeper would have been good
2017-09-21T21:06:02Z pjb: Then of course, *terminal-io* is a character stream, so you'll need an implementation specific to open a binary stream on the same file descriptors…
2017-09-21T21:06:14Z dim: pjb: unfortunately I have other occupations and a quite finite time
2017-09-21T21:06:35Z pjb: And it wouldn't work in slime/emacs :-)
2017-09-21T21:06:50Z pjb: When you have swank streams, you want to do it yet another way.
2017-09-21T21:07:05Z dim: I guess I'll find a way to do graphics in CL, meanwhile we're doing https://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/ and it's pretty nice
2017-09-21T21:07:18Z dim: the day I can do that in CL is not here yet
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2017-09-21T21:07:52Z dim: franckly porting this tutorial to CLIM would be awesome
2017-09-21T21:08:09Z dim: for those who can run CLIM ;/ (my local X11 version isn't supported, IIRC)
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2017-09-21T21:09:48Z didi: dim: Can I /query you?
2017-09-21T21:10:15Z dim: yeah
2017-09-21T21:10:41Z didi: Thank you.
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2017-09-21T21:39:37Z fouric: _death: this looks like what I needed, thank you!
2017-09-21T21:39:43Z fouric: (wrt https://github.com/cffi-posix/fd-stream)
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2017-09-21T21:43:41Z Fare had to write uiop and discover all the pathname incompatibilities between 16 different CL implementations, the hard way
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2017-09-21T21:46:11Z Fare: props go to janderson, though (a hacker I both admire and loathe), for writing the first test suite for asdf pathnames
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2017-09-21T21:49:22Z dim: loathe might be a tad too strong for a person you've worked with?
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2017-09-21T21:50:35Z dim: wow. seems like I'm done with the main content for my incoming book ;-)
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2017-09-21T22:15:59Z Fare: dim: probably bad translation from french
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2017-09-21T22:16:39Z Fare: dim: although everyone at work cheered when the last line of his code was expunged from the codebase (except for his open source libraries, that we kept using)
2017-09-21T22:17:37Z Fare: what I mean is that he's probably a more intelligent and better hacker than all of us were, in many ways, yet that his ability to deal with complexity is not tampered by an equivalent urge to eliminate the complexity.
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2017-09-21T22:18:06Z Fare: which means that when there's a bug (or missing feature) in his code and that someone else has to change it...
2017-09-21T22:18:36Z Fare: dim: does your book involve Postgres and Lisp ?
2017-09-21T22:19:08Z dim: http://masteringpostgresql.com
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2017-09-21T22:19:45Z dim: PostgreSQL mainly, but of course the helper programs and scripts I had to write to support the project are mainly done in Lisp, tho today I wrote some Go, and there's Python code included in the book too
2017-09-21T22:20:02Z dim: (that I wrote, but that a good friend fluent in Python reviewed)
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2017-09-21T22:21:52Z Fare: I'm told Postgres used to (1) be written in Lisp, and (2) have a better designed query language than SQL (that's a very low low bar).
2017-09-21T22:23:15Z dim: learn yourself some SQL before thinking the bar is that low ;-)
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2017-09-21T22:23:58Z dim: 1 is wrong, PostgreSQL implementation for SQL queries is basically organized in a. parser b. planner c. optimizer and d. executor, and it used to be that the optimizer would be partly in lisp
2017-09-21T22:24:27Z dim: all that's left from that area can ben seen in https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/src/include/nodes/pg_list.h
2017-09-21T22:24:49Z dim: 2 was the quel language, which is better at insert/update in my opinion
2017-09-21T22:25:08Z dim: but falls short from what SQL has been bringing on the table those 25 past years
2017-09-21T22:25:58Z dim: if I had to bet I'd say what you call SQL is parts of SQL 89 with sprinkles of SQL 92, where the current standard is SQL 2016
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2017-09-22T00:57:42Z jasom: Fare: I missed some of what you said; is this lisp hacker janderson?
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2017-09-22T02:07:35Z Fare: jasom, yes
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2017-09-22T02:19:22Z Fare: jasom, of course, having people write the code they shouldn't is also bad management.
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2017-09-22T04:10:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-22T04:11:35Z basket: Good morning beach
2017-09-22T04:12:51Z shka_: basket: hello!
2017-09-22T04:12:51Z minion: shka_, memo from jasom: an interesting data-structure (though not necessarily of practical use over 2,4 or red-black trees) is discussed here: http://user.it.uu.se/~arnea/abs/gb.html
2017-09-22T04:15:34Z shka_: jasom: thanks!
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2017-09-22T04:16:43Z basket: shka_: Salut
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2017-09-22T04:21:10Z shka_: basket: hey
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2017-09-22T04:48:38Z jmercouris: beach: I sent you an email, just in case you are wondering who it is
2017-09-22T04:48:52Z beach: Got it.
2017-09-22T04:49:13Z jmercouris: beach: Awesome! Thanks!
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2017-09-22T04:57:51Z beach: jmercouris: There are tons of small problems with the code.  Do you want remarks about those as well?  I find it extremely hard to understand the meaning of some code when I am distracted by the superficial problems.
2017-09-22T04:58:26Z beach: jmercouris: Also, perhaps you should expose your code here so that other people have a chance to give you feedback as well.
2017-09-22T05:01:41Z beach: jmercouris: And, do you have any specification for what you are doing?  You haven't even told me what the software is supposed to do.
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2017-09-22T05:05:19Z shka_: beach: you are doing code reviews now? :D
2017-09-22T05:05:58Z beach: shka_: I often do.  Especially when I am asked to.
2017-09-22T05:06:08Z shka_: i will keep that in mind
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2017-09-22T05:12:28Z jmercouris: beach: the more the better
2017-09-22T05:13:01Z jmercouris: beach: The specification is kind of outlined here: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/tree/master/next#release-timeline
2017-09-22T05:13:04Z beach: jmercouris: Have you read the style guide by Pitman and Norvig?
2017-09-22T05:13:12Z jmercouris: beach: I think maybe
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2017-09-22T05:13:30Z beach: You have several violations of the recommendations in it in your code.
2017-09-22T05:13:33Z jmercouris: Also, it's less of a specification, and more just like a list of features, the quick jist is an "emacs" browser
2017-09-22T05:14:13Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, I'm sure I saw it, but I didn't quite apply it so well, is there an automatic way of linting or do I just have to know them all?
2017-09-22T05:14:14Z beach: I still don't know what it is supposed to BE.
2017-09-22T05:14:25Z jmercouris: beach: I'm not sure I understand the question, can you try rephrasing it?
2017-09-22T05:14:51Z beach: Sorry, which question?
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2017-09-22T05:15:21Z jmercouris: the what is it supposed to "BE" question
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2017-09-22T05:15:27Z beach: Is it a text editor, a music player, an operating system, a score editor?
2017-09-22T05:15:28Z jmercouris: also, are you referring to the following style guide?: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
2017-09-22T05:15:29Z beach: Something else?
2017-09-22T05:15:34Z jmercouris: It is a web browser
2017-09-22T05:15:42Z beach: see, you never told me that.
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2017-09-22T05:15:59Z jmercouris: beach: Sorry for my omission, I had just assumed you already knew for some reason :\
2017-09-22T05:16:02Z beach: Yes, that's the style guide.
2017-09-22T05:16:29Z jmercouris: Also of course, I'm open to any criticism from anyone in the channel as well
2017-09-22T05:16:45Z beach: OK, look at page 13 in the style guide.
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2017-09-22T05:17:49Z jmercouris: beach: Ok, I'm looking at it
2017-09-22T05:18:05Z beach: There are a certain number of rules for conditionals.
2017-09-22T05:18:16Z beach: And there are more such rules that are implied.
2017-09-22T05:18:19Z jmercouris: Right, I kind of see the order of specificity here, I know I violate the if one frequently
2017-09-22T05:18:34Z beach: For instance, in your code, you do (let ((children (...))) (when children ...))
2017-09-22T05:19:03Z jmercouris: I don't see what the issue is with the when statement within the let body
2017-09-22T05:19:07Z beach: The LET implies that CHILDREN is a list of objects.
2017-09-22T05:19:16Z beach: The WHEN implies that it is a Boolean value.
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2017-09-22T05:19:23Z jmercouris: it is a list of objects, I just want to check if it is set in the struct
2017-09-22T05:19:33Z jmercouris: if it is not set, then there are no children
2017-09-22T05:19:53Z jmercouris: I thought any non-nil value was equal to "t" and hence acceptable
2017-09-22T05:20:16Z beach: The compiler agrees with you, but the person reading your code does not.
2017-09-22T05:20:34Z jmercouris: Fair enough :D, how should I have written it instead?
2017-09-22T05:20:56Z beach: The compiler accepts any grammatical expression.  The reader of your code only wants idiomatic expressions, and those are a small subset of the grammatical ones.
2017-09-22T05:21:27Z beach: I write (unless (null children) ...) because then (null children) checks whether the list is the empty list, and unless is given a Boolean value.
2017-09-22T05:21:44Z beach: That is what page 13 implies.
2017-09-22T05:22:08Z beach: As you see, all the "Violates Expectation" are grammatically correct.
2017-09-22T05:22:16Z jmercouris: aha okay, I see
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2017-09-22T05:22:31Z Zhivago: Of course, it might be better add empty-list-p to make sure that it's clear that you expect a list rather than a symbol. :)
2017-09-22T05:22:32Z jmercouris: basically since we are expecting a bool, we should make a bool, yea?
2017-09-22T05:22:45Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-22T05:23:00Z beach: Zhivago: I think NULL is exactly that.
2017-09-22T05:23:13Z beach: Zhivago: As opposed to NOT or (EQ symbol NIL).
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2017-09-22T05:23:38Z jmercouris: beach: Do you think I should copy the email body to a pastebin as well so that others may read it?
2017-09-22T05:23:41Z Zhivago: Well, NULL tests for the type NIL, really.
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2017-09-22T05:23:58Z beach: jmercouris: I think you should.
2017-09-22T05:24:03Z jmercouris: Zhivago: would you also be interested in reading the email/critiquing the codebase?
2017-09-22T05:24:07Z Zhivago: So if you're going to be explicit you might as well be explicitly explicit.
2017-09-22T05:24:07Z jmercouris: beach: ok, one second
2017-09-22T05:24:27Z Zhivago: I can take a glance if you like.
2017-09-22T05:24:33Z Zhivago: Where is it?
2017-09-22T05:25:01Z jmercouris: Zhivago: https://pastebin.com/2uLCRxtu
2017-09-22T05:25:50Z beach: jmercouris: Many of us #lisp participants dislike the naming convention that consists of prefixing the slot accessor with the name of the class.  It looks very strange when there are deeply nested subclasses, like in McCLIM (SHEET-CHILDREN MY-PANE).
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2017-09-22T05:27:07Z jmercouris: beach: I just kind of copied it from the struct functionality that was already there when I converted to CLOS, how would you suggest I name things instead?
2017-09-22T05:27:21Z beach: Just drop the class prefix.
2017-09-22T05:27:42Z jmercouris: beach: ok, will do, and there should be no collisions right because these are methods, yeah?
2017-09-22T05:27:46Z beach: You have single-branch IFs in your code (if <conditon> <do-something>)
2017-09-22T05:27:52Z beach: That's another violation of expectations.
2017-09-22T05:27:58Z jmercouris: beach: yeah, I will have to fix those to whens
2017-09-22T05:28:01Z Zhivago: There may be collisions, since methods are part of generic-functions which should have coherent semantics.
2017-09-22T05:28:18Z Zhivago: But you can avoid collisions by using packages.
2017-09-22T05:28:51Z jmercouris: Zhivago: are you saying if I have two slots accessors with the same name in two different classes there will be a collision unless they are part of a different package?
2017-09-22T05:28:58Z Zhivago: That is, you're not calling or naming method -- you're calling and naming generic-functions.
2017-09-22T05:29:13Z beach: jmercouris: Your LOOPs are badly indented and formatted.  Use SLIME-INDENTATION and put the LOOP keywords first on a line.
2017-09-22T05:29:43Z jmercouris: beach: I'm just using the default indentation from M-q, is that different?
2017-09-22T05:29:45Z beach: Instead of a sequence of WHENs/RETURN-FROMs, it is better style to have a COND.
2017-09-22T05:29:54Z Zhivago: I'd rephrase that as, "If I have one generic function that implements slot accessors for two different classes".
2017-09-22T05:30:12Z beach: jmercouris: I don't know what M-q does for code so I don't know the answer.
2017-09-22T05:30:20Z basket: Zhivago: You mean NULL tests for the type NULL; NIL is the bottom type
2017-09-22T05:30:44Z jmercouris: beach: (paredit-reindent-defun &optional ARGUMENT)
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2017-09-22T05:31:21Z Zhivago: Which makes the concern of "does that function have coherent semantics" clearer.
2017-09-22T05:31:27Z beach: to get the LOOPs right, you need the SLIME-INDENTATION contribution.
2017-09-22T05:31:54Z beach: jmercouris: You certainly don't want a return-from as the last form of a function.  The last form is returned by default.
2017-09-22T05:32:00Z jmercouris: I tried M-x slime-update-indentation and it looks the same
2017-09-22T05:32:20Z Zhivago: Personally I suggest that slot accessors should generally not be exposed in any case.
2017-09-22T05:32:32Z jmercouris: Zhivago: then why are they called accessors?
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2017-09-22T05:33:13Z Zhivago: Well, you need something to access the slots, but the slots are really an implementation detail -- having things outside the class use them is usually not a great idea.
2017-09-22T05:33:42Z jmercouris: beach: that makes sense, I'll try to remove the return-froms where possible, I know there are a couple of exceptions to this where I must keep it for behavior due to QT
2017-09-22T05:33:53Z Zhivago: If you expose the slots then the slot semantics become part of your object semantics.
2017-09-22T05:33:59Z beach: jmercouris: The widely agreed-upon convention for special variables is to give them *earmuffs*.
2017-09-22T05:34:15Z jmercouris: beach: where have I missed that?
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2017-09-22T05:35:45Z beach: You can grep for "defvar" in your code.
2017-09-22T05:35:50Z Zhivago: jmercouris: You might find that (with-active-buffer ...) has nicer semantics than (set-active-buffer ...)
2017-09-22T05:36:06Z beach: (defvar document-mode-hook nil)
2017-09-22T05:36:32Z jmercouris: beach: ah, this is true, yes, but I wanted to make it like emacs, maybe I'll make it special, not sure
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2017-09-22T05:37:01Z jmercouris: Zhivago: are you suggesting just renaming the function, or making like a wrapper function?
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2017-09-22T05:37:33Z Zhivago: I was suggesting that you expose a (with- ...) which sets and restores, rather than exposing (set- ...) but it's just a suggestion.
2017-09-22T05:37:55Z jmercouris: Zhivago: that's a really good idea, I gotcha, I will definitely do that, it's like a python context manager
2017-09-22T05:38:10Z Zhivago: Note that defvar produces special variables implicitly.
2017-09-22T05:39:20Z jmercouris: Zhivago: are you referring to: "If a defvar or defparameter form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that the name has been proclaimed special."?
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2017-09-22T05:55:05Z Zhivago: jmer: Yes -- which is why beach is pointing out that it's already special.
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2017-09-22T05:58:51Z jmercouris: Zhivago: I see
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2017-09-22T05:59:20Z jmercouris: Well, anyways, thank you both for the valuable feedback, I'll try to make some of these syntactical/idiomatic changes and hopefully write cleaner code
2017-09-22T05:59:44Z jmercouris: The one question I still have though is, is my approach with the *active-buffer* and the regular functions bad? should I use methods instead?
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2017-09-22T06:05:52Z Zhivago: I think that the idea of having an active buffer in the dynamic context is quite lispy.
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2017-09-22T06:06:35Z beach: jmercouris: I will let you know when the code is in a good-enough shape that I can read it for what it means and not be distracted by superficial stuff.
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2017-09-22T06:08:16Z beach: jmercouris: You don't need a PROGN if there is a single form in a branch of an IF.
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2017-09-22T06:09:28Z beach: jmercouris: In stead of doing (if bla (funcall fun <stuff1>) (funcall fun <stuff2>)) it is more Lispy to do (funcall fun (if bla <stuff1> <stuff2>))
2017-09-22T06:10:45Z beach: jmercouris: I would definitely create a MINIBUFFER abstraction instead of having all those special variables.
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2017-09-22T06:16:21Z jmercouris: beach: how would I make it sort of globally accessible? what's a good singleton pattern?
2017-09-22T06:16:56Z jmercouris: beach: sounds good, I will definitely work on it
2017-09-22T06:17:10Z jmercouris: I'm going to sleep for now though, goodnight everyone!
2017-09-22T06:17:44Z beach: You store an instance in a single special variable rather than having a special variable for each feature.
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2017-09-22T06:18:13Z jmercouris: beach: aha, so like a struct?
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2017-09-22T06:18:33Z beach: Except you use a standard class, created by defclass.
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2017-09-22T06:18:43Z beach: And you use accessors as usual.
2017-09-22T06:19:04Z beach: ... rather than (say) SLOT-VALUE.
2017-09-22T06:19:20Z jmercouris: right okay, I'll try to pull them into the minibuffer then
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2017-09-22T06:19:27Z jmercouris: the minibuffer class that is
2017-09-22T06:20:29Z beach: That or a minibuffer-feature class or something like that.
2017-09-22T06:20:42Z beach: I haven't looked at the details to determine that.
2017-09-22T06:21:32Z beach: But I think you have ample stuff to work on for a few days as it is.
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2017-09-22T06:25:02Z pjb: Well, if you want to test for empty lists, in general  you should rather use endp instead of null.
2017-09-22T06:25:57Z pjb: Zhivago: NULL tests for the NIL value, not the NIL type.  There is no object in the NIL type! (constantly nil) would be the test for the NIL type!
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2017-09-22T06:40:03Z beach: Yes, ENDP is even better than NULL.
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2017-09-22T06:40:34Z pjb: b
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2017-09-22T06:54:05Z lexicall: Hi, a package system related problem here. I defined macro AIF in package A and used that macro in package B (:shadowing-import-from #:A #:AIF). i wrote code (aif true it false), but it expands to (LET ((A::IT 1)) (IF A::IT IT IT)), so the compiler explains "Error: The variable IT is unbound." the latter IT does not refer to the former one, which is in package A.
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2017-09-22T06:55:19Z lexicall: definition of AIF: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356507
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2017-09-22T07:02:08Z |3b|: lexicall: import the IT symbol from package A into package B
2017-09-22T07:02:30Z |3b|: or arrange for the AIF to do ugly tricks with symbol generation and hope they don't bite you later
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2017-09-22T07:06:37Z beach: lexicall: What |3b| says.  The package of a symbol is determined when the symbol is read, so the symbols IT in the AIF macro is interned in the package named A.
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2017-09-22T07:10:33Z pjb: lexicall: why do you shadowing import it? Just use A in B! (having export AIF from A)
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2017-09-22T07:13:05Z beach: Am I the only one who gets irritated when the person who is given help does not give any sign of life for a long period of time after the help is given?
2017-09-22T07:13:22Z beach: Like "Oh, OK, let me try that.  Hold on a sec..."
2017-09-22T07:13:50Z beach: Or "I don't understand what you are saying.  Is there anything I can read in order to learn more?"
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2017-09-22T07:14:17Z beach: Or "Oops, slight emergency.  I'll try your advice later.  In the meantime, thanks!"
2017-09-22T07:14:32Z anticrisis: beach: kids today have a lot of social media channels to keep track of
2017-09-22T07:14:55Z anticrisis: also it's entirely possible they think you're an AI bot
2017-09-22T07:14:56Z beach: And not doing a good job, it seems.
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2017-09-22T07:15:53Z jdz: That's probably because the answer was not given 10 seconds after the question, so the person must have wandered away.
2017-09-22T07:16:10Z flip214: beach: well, if I get called away by an emergency, I won't start to explain that anywhere... I'll just be gone, and says "thanks" some time later on
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2017-09-22T07:17:07Z beach: For me, it depends on the severity of the emergency.
2017-09-22T07:18:09Z flip214: yeah, of course. A simple "Daddy, can I have some chocolate?" isn't that severe ;)
2017-09-22T07:18:30Z beach: Exactly! :)
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2017-09-22T07:19:08Z JuanDaugherty: irc is unregulated, kinda like life itself
2017-09-22T07:19:28Z JuanDaugherty: experienced users observe norms
2017-09-22T07:20:17Z JuanDaugherty: but being unregulated ... . From my perspective it's working pretty well, this channel in particular has less trolling and such than in the past
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2017-09-22T07:21:36Z JuanDaugherty: i was helping a user in another channel yesterday when they threatened to stop listening to me because they thought I wasn't paying sufficient attention to what they said
2017-09-22T07:21:47Z beach: Wow.
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2017-09-22T07:22:02Z beach: Yeah, #lisp is pretty civilized.
2017-09-22T07:22:24Z jdz: beach: You're downplaying your own role there!
2017-09-22T07:23:27Z beach: Oh?  That's nice of you to say so.
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2017-09-22T07:47:05Z lexicall: Oops sorry for not replying becasue I was out before |3b| gave me the advice. Next time I'll be more responsible for my question here. I'll follow what |3b| said, and thanks beach for explaining the reason for me.
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2017-09-22T08:00:00Z hajovonta: hi
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2017-09-22T08:06:15Z shka: jasom: neat
2017-09-22T08:06:24Z shka: jasom: i like data structures
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2017-09-22T10:04:22Z akr: Hi, anyone here who's using cl-smtp? I'm having trouble having it send a mail. Here's debug output, does it seem okay to you? http://paste.lisp.org/display/356519
2017-09-22T10:04:33Z akr: I'm not sure why DATA is seemingly empty
2017-09-22T10:05:42Z antoszka: Unless we see your code using the library it's hard to guess.
2017-09-22T10:05:49Z antoszka: Maybe you're not supplying any body?
2017-09-22T10:06:35Z akr: the code is a bit strange, it seems to be using an undocumented function exported by cl-smtp (I didn't write it)
2017-09-22T10:06:36Z akr: hang on
2017-09-22T10:07:27Z akr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356520
2017-09-22T10:09:00Z akr: I'm sure that mime-encode works
2017-09-22T10:10:06Z akr: I'm not sure why the debug output doesn't show anything about subject or encoding
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2017-09-22T10:24:20Z akr: hmm, okay
2017-09-22T10:25:34Z akr: here's how the debug output looks when it actually works: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356522
2017-09-22T10:25:55Z akr: there's an extra line where the server says that it's queued the message
2017-09-22T10:26:04Z akr: I guess there's something wrong with configuration, then
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2017-09-22T10:33:00Z antoszka: akr: I think ~%~% is the problem, you need *two* empty CRLFs to separate headers from body, ~% will emit a fresh line, *only* when the output isn't on a fresh line already.
2017-09-22T10:33:15Z antoszka: akr: Use either two ~&~& or two #\Newlines.
2017-09-22T10:33:49Z akr: hmm, but it works on a different machine
2017-09-22T10:34:00Z antoszka: Hm, sorry, I think I mixed up ~% and ~& anyway.
2017-09-22T10:34:29Z akr: so this cl-smtp thing is supposed to connect to a locally running SMTP server, like Postfix, right?
2017-09-22T10:34:29Z antoszka: Try debugging first by printing the whole output out to a different stream.
2017-09-22T10:34:37Z antoszka: Any SMTP server.
2017-09-22T10:35:01Z akr: it says it's connecting to "Python SMTP proxy version 0.2"
2017-09-22T10:35:08Z akr: that can't be good…?
2017-09-22T10:35:08Z antoszka: Anyway, I'm sorry but I must run now, hope somebody else can take over :)
2017-09-22T10:35:22Z antoszka: If that's what's running on your machine.
2017-09-22T10:35:22Z akr: np, thanks anyway :)
2017-09-22T10:35:25Z antoszka: I've no idea :)
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2017-09-22T10:36:41Z basket: ~% is only an LF
2017-09-22T10:37:22Z basket: If you want to output CRLF do (format nil "~c~c" #\Return #\Linefeed)
2017-09-22T10:38:47Z basket: Or well, on Unix anyway; ~% would do CRLF on Windows I think, but I don't use Windows
2017-09-22T10:39:18Z basket: clhs 22.3
2017-09-22T10:39:18Z specbot: Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
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2017-09-22T10:42:59Z akr: the problem is that there's no proper SMTP server on the machine, I think
2017-09-22T10:43:09Z akr: I don't know what the Python proxy thing is, but it doesn't work
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2017-09-22T10:44:16Z akr: in any case, I don't think that LF vs. CRLF is an issue here
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2017-09-22T10:58:35Z flip214: akr: use tcpdump or wireshark to find out what data gets actually transmitted.
2017-09-22T10:58:55Z flip214: you could also run strace against the python proxy, perhaps that'll show why it wouldn't relay.
2017-09-22T10:59:00Z akr: oh, that's a good idea
2017-09-22T10:59:01Z akr: thanks!
2017-09-22T10:59:44Z flip214: if you paste the strace (or send privately, eg. via mail), I'll happily help interpret.
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2017-09-22T11:01:03Z flip214: akr: my default options for strace are "-s 2000 -f -tt", BTW
2017-09-22T11:02:00Z akr: I've asked a sysadmin guy to set up a proper SMTP server, so I think I'm off the hook for now :P
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2017-09-22T11:02:06Z akr: but thanks a lot for the offer
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2017-09-22T11:03:45Z flip214: akr: oh, if that is an option, "apt-get install postfix" is the answer ;)
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2017-09-22T11:04:12Z akr: it is installed, but there's something broken, idk
2017-09-22T11:04:26Z akr: when I try to start it, it just says that it failed startup without any helpful info
2017-09-22T11:05:27Z flip214: well, you've got somebody else looking now, so I'll just offer the mantra "read the logs" ;)
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2017-09-22T11:07:17Z akr: oh, hmm, looks like something else's taken the smtp port — maybe the python thing
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2017-09-22T11:12:48Z flip214: yeah, that's a good reason that the other SMTP service won't start
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2017-09-22T11:37:21Z flip214 is currently reading some technical documentation, but sentences like "and edit the constructor request to query a specific car" start with the wrong meaning
2017-09-22T11:37:43Z flip214: well, at least CDR is not an english word.
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2017-09-22T12:10:35Z kami: Good afternoon, #lisp.
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2017-09-22T12:19:56Z knobo: Can I download and install latest sbcl from github with roswell?
2017-09-22T12:22:35Z knobo: sorry, sbcl master branch
2017-09-22T12:22:38Z knobo: from github
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2017-09-22T13:06:09Z akr: flip214: yeah, installing postfix fixed everything
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2017-09-22T14:14:52Z Xach: hey, who wants to try out a quicklisp bootstrap (quicklisp.lisp) that includes pgp checking of all downloads, and bootstraps into a client that does pgp and sha checking of everything too?
2017-09-22T14:15:12Z dlowe: nice!
2017-09-22T14:15:18Z dlowe: I'll try it
2017-09-22T14:15:19Z Xach: don't try it on a real install, try somewhere temporary
2017-09-22T14:15:43Z dlowe: Will renaming ~/quicklisp to ~/quicklisp-real do the trick?
2017-09-22T14:16:10Z Xach: dlowe: yeah, that will get things out of the way for testing. or you could use :path during install to go to a temp place.
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2017-09-22T14:17:13Z Xach: https://www.quicklisp.org/tmp/quicklisp.lisp is the file
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2017-09-22T14:20:07Z dlowe load tests with climacs.
2017-09-22T14:22:13Z dlowe: Xach: success!  Hacks and glory!
2017-09-22T14:22:22Z dlowe: man, mcclim really hates sloppy mouse focus
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2017-09-22T16:28:19Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: I don't see you on #lispweb, but hunchentoot has post-parameters* to get an alist of all post parameters, and it parses both multipart/form-data and application/x-www-form-urlencoded
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2017-09-22T16:54:47Z some-user: hello
2017-09-22T16:54:58Z beach: Hello some-user.
2017-09-22T16:55:25Z some-user: strangely i can't find any recording of this https://icfp17.sigplan.org/track/scheme-2017#program , it would be weird if whole event went unrecorded
2017-09-22T16:55:39Z some-user: does anyone has any info on this?
2017-09-22T16:55:57Z beach: You might have better luck in #scheme.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-09-22T16:56:12Z astronavt: some-user you could maybe find a contact and email them
2017-09-22T16:56:52Z some-user: astronavt: yeah, will do that as last resort
2017-09-22T16:57:47Z dlowe: some-user: or ##lisp, which covers all the lisp family
2017-09-22T16:58:35Z some-user: beach: dlowe done, thanks
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2017-09-22T17:02:58Z newcoder: How can I install lisp on ubuntu?
2017-09-22T17:03:05Z newcoder: apt-get install lisp?
2017-09-22T17:03:49Z shrdlu68: Likely not.
2017-09-22T17:04:46Z shrdlu68: There are a number of implementations, try ecl, ccl, or sbcl. (not the complete list)
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2017-09-22T17:05:01Z jasom: newcoder: apt-get install sbcl
2017-09-22T17:05:12Z pjb: newcoder: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2017-09-22T17:05:18Z newcoder: Is it? cl-modlisp
2017-09-22T17:05:33Z pjb: newcoder: I would advise ccl and a manual install (from svn).
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2017-09-22T17:06:01Z jasom: newcoder: https://portacle.github.io/ is a pretty good starting point too
2017-09-22T17:07:47Z iqubic: For context, newcoder was recently in #emacs asking about the differences between elisp and "lisp" not knowing the lisp was a whole family of languages and elisp is just a dialect, or version.
2017-09-22T17:08:02Z astronavt: pjb why ccl?
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2017-09-22T17:08:14Z astronavt: still have a sour taste in my mouth from their Cocoa bridge just not working :(
2017-09-22T17:08:32Z dlowe: newcoder: you can also download https://dlowe.net/tmp/sbcl.install.sh, look at it, and run it
2017-09-22T17:08:36Z newcoder: I installed sbcl, now how can I write hello world with lisp
2017-09-22T17:08:42Z pjb: astronavt: well, it could be better (ie. portable), but it works, I use it everyday.
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2017-09-22T17:08:50Z jasom: newcoder: (format t "Hello, World!~%")
2017-09-22T17:09:05Z pjb: newcoder: Or at the repl: "Hello, World!"
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2017-09-22T17:09:17Z dlowe: (write-line "Hello, World!"
2017-09-22T17:09:19Z dlowe: )
2017-09-22T17:09:30Z newcoder: jasom: Where would I write (format t "Hello, World!~%") ?
2017-09-22T17:09:33Z dlowe: too eager with the return key
2017-09-22T17:09:35Z shrdlu68: newcoder: The most straightforward way is to launch sbcl in a terminal.
2017-09-22T17:09:37Z astronavt: newcoder check out the book Practical Common Lisp. i'm working through it right now, it's a great introduction if you're already a programmer
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2017-09-22T17:09:41Z newcoder: bash: !~%: event not found
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2017-09-22T17:10:01Z newcoder: shrdlu68: That worked
2017-09-22T17:10:26Z shrdlu68: newcoder: Okay, now you're in a Read Evaluate Print Loop (REPL).
2017-09-22T17:10:41Z shrdlu68: Type code in, see the output, repeat.
2017-09-22T17:10:47Z newcoder:  but upper arrow key doesn't work in sbcl
2017-09-22T17:10:54Z jasom: minion: tell newcoder about gentle
2017-09-22T17:10:54Z minion: newcoder: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2017-09-22T17:11:03Z shrdlu68: Oh yeah, no line editing in sbcl ;(
2017-09-22T17:11:03Z Josh_2: ^^
2017-09-22T17:11:19Z jasom: newcoder: install rlwrap and run "rlwrap sbcl" for line editing
2017-09-22T17:11:20Z Josh_2: That's what I started on when I had very little programming experience PCL is too much if you don't have any experience.
2017-09-22T17:11:24Z pjb: newcoder: hw is a little more complex: https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/hw
2017-09-22T17:12:15Z shrdlu68: newcoder: Stock sbcl has the primitive line editing capabilities of "cat -"
2017-09-22T17:12:35Z jasom: newcoder: portacle (which I referenced earlier) sets up an entire IDE, including a REPL with line editing as well; might be more than you need right now, but isn't a bad place to start either
2017-09-22T17:13:17Z dlowe: I wonder how hard it would be to make a gui listener specifically to embed into sbcl contrib
2017-09-22T17:13:25Z newcoder:  (write-line "Hello World!") outputs Hello World! multiple times
2017-09-22T17:13:41Z dlowe: newcoder: one of those times is the return value of write-line
2017-09-22T17:13:44Z iqubic: It should output it twice only.
2017-09-22T17:13:47Z pjb: newcoder:  this is why I said, it's a little more complex…
2017-09-22T17:13:57Z pjb: iqubic: the REPL prints the result too!
2017-09-22T17:14:03Z jasom: newcoder: this is because the REPL prints the value returned by write-line, *and* also prints write-line out to the console; one of the two should have quotes around it, right?
2017-09-22T17:14:30Z pjb: newcoder: why didn't you use the simpler REPL Hello World I provided?  "Hello, World!"
2017-09-22T17:14:31Z jasom: newcoder: in a fancier REPL (like what portacle would install) the two would also be coloured differently
2017-09-22T17:15:14Z newcoder: I wrote (write-line "Hello World!") in h.lisp, now how can I run it?
2017-09-22T17:15:22Z pjb: (load "h.lisp")
2017-09-22T17:15:23Z jasom: newcoder: sbcl --load h.lisp
2017-09-22T17:15:41Z jasom: newcoder: or, (load "h.lisp") if you are already in the REPL
2017-09-22T17:15:54Z dlowe: you can also put #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script at the top of your file, set it executable, and run it directly that way
2017-09-22T17:16:16Z newcoder: (load "h.lisp") = bash: load: command not found
2017-09-22T17:17:09Z pjb: Stop being an idiot!
2017-09-22T17:17:13Z dlowe: newcoder: you might consider also joining #clnoobs, which is specifically a channel for helping people get started.
2017-09-22T17:17:16Z pjb: newcoder: you are in #lisp, not in #bash!
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2017-09-22T17:17:22Z shrdlu68: pjb: Not helpful.
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2017-09-22T17:18:05Z shrdlu68: newcoder: You're doing fine, you just need to take some time and read something about common lisp.
2017-09-22T17:18:15Z whoman: http://i.imgur.com/MfcSJ3gl.jpg
2017-09-22T17:18:36Z newcoder: (SB-C:COMPILER-ERROR SB-C::INPUT-ERROR-IN-LOAD :CONDITION #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR "no dispatch function defined for ~S" {B3E6D59}
2017-09-22T17:18:44Z newcoder: sbcl --load h.lisp ^
2017-09-22T17:18:57Z whoman: --eval ?
2017-09-22T17:19:16Z jasom: newcoder: did you put a #! at the top?  Don't do that if you're going to load it with sbcl --load
2017-09-22T17:19:20Z newcoder: #!/usr/bin/sbcl
2017-09-22T17:19:20Z newcoder: (write-line "Hello World!")
2017-09-22T17:19:38Z dlowe: newcoder: the --script there is important
2017-09-22T17:19:41Z jasom: newcoder: delete the first line
2017-09-22T17:19:49Z dlowe: oh, right.
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2017-09-22T17:20:05Z newcoder: sbcl --script h.lisp looks good, thanks
2017-09-22T17:20:11Z jasom: newcoder: dlowe and I were telling you two different ways of doing it, mixing and matchign isn't going to work...
2017-09-22T17:20:25Z newcoder: So is sbcl called common lisp?
2017-09-22T17:20:39Z dlowe: jasom: right. I will stop now.
2017-09-22T17:20:40Z shrdlu68: newcoder: Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp
2017-09-22T17:20:53Z jasom: newcoder: sbcl is "Steel Bank Common Lisp"; Common Lisp is a standard, of which there is more than one implementation
2017-09-22T17:21:03Z jasom: kind of like clang and gcc are both C implementations
2017-09-22T17:21:29Z jasom: Clozure Common Lisp, Armed Bear Common Lisp and Embeddable Common Lisp are 3 other implementations
2017-09-22T17:22:17Z jasom: Lispworks and Allegro Common Lisp are two proprietary implementations that are probably out of your price range if you're a hobbiest
2017-09-22T17:22:20Z newcoder: So many lisps? Which one should we learn?
2017-09-22T17:22:28Z newcoder: So many common lisps?
2017-09-22T17:22:36Z newcoder: So lisp is not common
2017-09-22T17:22:52Z dlowe: they all conform to the common lisp specification
2017-09-22T17:23:00Z dlowe: and add some stuff of their own
2017-09-22T17:23:14Z newcoder: So syntax are same for all, right?
2017-09-22T17:23:26Z basket: Right
2017-09-22T17:23:53Z jasom: newcoder: right
2017-09-22T17:24:15Z dlowe: CL code can be "portable" - which will run on any implementation, or "implementation-specific". most CL code is written to be portable.
2017-09-22T17:24:18Z jasom: newcoder: I highly recommend you read http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ it's a text book for teaching lisp to new coders
2017-09-22T17:24:20Z whoman: ok, ill just leave this here too, http://www.pathwayslms.com/swipltuts/student/index.html#regulars
2017-09-22T17:24:30Z whoman: good advice for all of us.
2017-09-22T17:25:05Z jasom: newcoder: the whole #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script trick only works with sbcl; (write-line "Hello, World!") works everywhere, as does (load "h.lisp") to load it
2017-09-22T17:25:25Z pjb: Notice that newcoder just ignored about 99% of the advice.
2017-09-22T17:26:02Z whoman: there is advice about giving too much advice, all at once, conflicting teaching plans, etc.
2017-09-22T17:26:10Z whoman: ^ summarized above by our fellow prologgers
2017-09-22T17:26:15Z pjb: If a newbie is give Getting+Started and doesn't says thank you and ask away a new question immediately (instead of spending at least 24 hours installing and reading the material referenced on cliki), then he's just a lazy bum.
2017-09-22T17:26:46Z dlowe: I disagree.  Not everyone learns from a wall of text.
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2017-09-22T17:27:19Z whoman: section 2.1: "I don’t think you’re intending to be mean, but when you demonstrate your intellect or highlight a fascinating corner of [domain], in effect you’re ignoring the poor petitioner."
2017-09-22T17:27:19Z chu: Also, pretty much trolling in #emacs earlier about emacs not being vim and then more recently about how the lisp he had used had too many (((....)))'s
2017-09-22T17:27:23Z newcoder: http://dpaste.com/3GGE1ZB , where is the error here?
2017-09-22T17:28:00Z whoman: "2.2. Avoid Competing Teachers Syndrome" ... etc., sorry for the extra noise.
2017-09-22T17:28:09Z iqubic: Is that first line a valid interpreter?
2017-09-22T17:28:16Z dlowe: whoman: this looks valuable, thanks.
2017-09-22T17:28:32Z dlowe: newcoder: delete the first line if you use (load "h.lisp")
2017-09-22T17:28:57Z basket: newcoder: WRITE-LINE can only print strings, not integers
2017-09-22T17:29:05Z jasom: iqubic: #! is defined by posix to work with zero or one arguments; some unixen will work with more than one argument, but /usr/sbin/sbcl --script fits into the requirement
2017-09-22T17:29:08Z newcoder: (print x) works
2017-09-22T17:30:19Z jasom: newcoder: write-line only will write a string; print will try to print anything you throw at it
2017-09-22T17:31:01Z newcoder: How can I print/write-line a newline?
2017-09-22T17:31:08Z basket: jasom: Does POSIX really not guarantee more than one argument?
2017-09-22T17:31:25Z basket: newcoder: (format t "~&~A~%" x)
2017-09-22T17:31:27Z astronavt: newcoder: (format t "~%")
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2017-09-22T17:31:38Z jasom: newcoder: (terpri) will just print a newline; or you can use format: (format t "foo~%") will print foo followed by a newline
2017-09-22T17:31:50Z astronavt: ack i always forget "terpri"
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2017-09-22T17:32:21Z astronavt: "~&" is pretty cool
2017-09-22T17:32:22Z jasom: ~% is a newline and ~& will start a fresh line (i.e. only a newline if you didn't just print a newline)
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2017-09-22T17:32:44Z jasom: these ~ operators only work in format, not win write-line, print &c.
2017-09-22T17:33:03Z basket: astronavt: It's also available outside of format with FRESH-LINE
2017-09-22T17:33:31Z newcoder: Is it possible to print variable then newline? Like printf("%d\n",x); in C
2017-09-22T17:33:42Z jasom: newcoder: (format t "~A~%" x)
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2017-09-22T17:35:01Z newcoder: ~A means integer?
2017-09-22T17:35:05Z jasom: newcoder: format is roughly equivalent to fprintf, with the first argument being where the result should go; T means the standard output
2017-09-22T17:35:10Z jasom: newcoder: ~A means any object
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2017-09-22T17:35:37Z newcoder: Does elisp work in this same way?
2017-09-22T17:35:40Z jasom: newcoder: ~D is decimal
2017-09-22T17:36:20Z jasom: but usually people just use ~A unless they specifically want formatting options specific to numbers
2017-09-22T17:37:20Z jasom: newcoder: no, elisp has a format that uses printf style % operators and works more like sprintf (it always just returns a string rather than outputting anything)
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2017-09-22T17:38:11Z jasom: though the %s operator for elisp's format works much like the ~A operator for lisp's format
2017-09-22T17:39:06Z jasom: clhs format
2017-09-22T17:39:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2017-09-22T17:39:25Z jasom: ^^ docs for format are there, but it's way more than you need to know now; as a noob you can do most of what you want just with ~A and ~%
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2017-09-22T17:50:22Z JuanDaugherty: jasom, ty!
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2017-09-22T17:51:46Z mr_yogurt: What's the recommended library for plotting?
2017-09-22T17:54:16Z jasom: mr_yogurt: I like meeting in the stacks at the university; less likely to get your plot discovered that way
2017-09-22T17:54:25Z shrdlu68: Machiavelli's
2017-09-22T17:54:53Z shrdlu68: mr_yogurt: http://cliki.net/plotting
2017-09-22T17:54:55Z jasom: mr_yogurt: more seriously, I've used cl-dot before
2017-09-22T17:58:12Z jasom: mr_yogurt: but that's more like for network graphs.  You could probably do worse than output gnuplot scripts using run-program to lanuch gnuplot
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2017-09-22T18:30:12Z astronavt: i wish the R and/or Matplotlib libraries were standalone or embeddable
2017-09-22T18:30:21Z astronavt: plotting libraries*
2017-09-22T18:31:05Z astronavt: an R <-> CL interface might be straightforward enough, since R is very lispy internally
2017-09-22T18:31:35Z astronavt: although it has fexprs (the horror), not macros
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2017-09-22T19:02:16Z dim: generate TikZ programs? ;-)
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2017-09-22T19:38:09Z phoe_: (loop for ((a b) (c d)) on '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6)) do (format t "~D ~D : ~D ~D~%" a b c d))
2017-09-22T19:38:18Z phoe_: How can I avoid C and D being bound to NIL on the last iteration?
2017-09-22T19:38:45Z phoe_: I don't want to do (unless (null c)) because I have more variables to bind in FOR clauses before DO.
2017-09-22T19:41:17Z dlowe: stick a "while c"
2017-09-22T19:41:23Z dlowe: before the DO
2017-09-22T19:41:40Z dlowe: oh, never mind.
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2017-09-22T19:41:57Z dlowe: oh, wait, it's still relevant maybe?
2017-09-22T19:42:20Z jasom: phoe_: only thing I can think of is hacky: in the next FOR put a (progn (when (nil c) (return)) ...)
2017-09-22T19:42:31Z jasom: s/nil/null
2017-09-22T19:43:34Z jasom: e.g. (loop for ((a b) (c d)) on '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6)) for dummy = (when (null c) (return)) ...)
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2017-09-22T19:45:36Z phoe_: jasom: I actually did a big hack.
2017-09-22T19:45:55Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356577
2017-09-22T19:46:01Z phoe_: look at "while fs2"
2017-09-22T19:46:16Z phoe_: and I put (or fs2 1) there to avoid a type error.
2017-09-22T19:46:26Z phoe_: ...I don't need (or fs1 1) but it's there for consistency.
2017-09-22T19:46:42Z jasom: phoe_: that's fine
2017-09-22T19:50:33Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-09-22T19:51:10Z jasom: actually...
2017-09-22T19:51:13Z jasom: clhs 6.1.1.4
2017-09-22T19:51:13Z specbot: Expanding Loop Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aad.htm
2017-09-22T19:51:22Z jasom: it looks like interleaving for and while is fine; just not with
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2017-09-22T19:52:06Z phoe_: ...woah
2017-09-22T19:52:08Z phoe_: you're right
2017-09-22T19:52:16Z phoe_: I was using WHEN instead of WHILE - it's fixed now, thanks!
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2017-09-22T19:54:19Z jasom: phoe_: note that  tall values get initialized before the while form is executed
2017-09-22T19:54:39Z jasom: clhs 6.1.1.6
2017-09-22T19:54:39Z specbot: Order of Execution: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aaf.htm
2017-09-22T19:54:41Z phoe_: tall values?
2017-09-22T19:54:45Z jasom: s/tall/all
2017-09-22T19:54:58Z phoe_: ...well, SBCL does not give me an error.
2017-09-22T19:55:00Z jasom: but that's just initialization
2017-09-22T19:55:19Z jasom: so elgl (loop for ((a b) (c d)) on '((1 2)) ...) should error
2017-09-22T19:55:25Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356577#1 <- this does not.
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2017-09-22T19:56:32Z phoe_: SBCL is quirky.
2017-09-22T19:56:41Z phoe_: It processes WHILE before initializing the latter FORs.
2017-09-22T19:57:28Z jasom: (loop for ((a b) (c d)) on '((1 2)) while c for e = (print "hello")) ; I believe this should print "hello" but it doesn't on sbcl
2017-09-22T19:57:34Z phoe_: I'm in that weird position where I'm happy that SBCL is non-conforming but sad because my code isn't as well. :(
2017-09-22T19:57:48Z phoe_: This does not print on SBCL.
2017-09-22T19:58:01Z jasom: nor on ecl
2017-09-22T19:58:30Z phoe_: ...nor on CCL
2017-09-22T19:58:41Z shrdlu68: phoe_: Isn't that the correct behavior? I use while precisely like this.
2017-09-22T19:58:52Z jasom: clisp is the only one so far that prints
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2017-09-22T19:59:11Z Bike: putting a while in the middle of your fors is nonconforming, i think.
2017-09-22T19:59:15Z jasom: abcl doesn't either
2017-09-22T19:59:33Z phoe_: ...nor MKCL
2017-09-22T19:59:36Z jasom: Bike: clisp claims it is nonconforming, but I can't find any reference in chapter 6 to support that
2017-09-22T19:59:46Z Bike: just look at the grammar.
2017-09-22T19:59:52Z phoe_: geez
2017-09-22T19:59:56Z Bike: loop [name clause] {variable clause}* {main clause}*
2017-09-22T20:00:02Z phoe_: CLISP is the only one that warns about it and prints it
2017-09-22T20:00:09Z jasom: ah
2017-09-22T20:00:12Z Bike: while is a main clause, for is a variable clause.
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2017-09-22T20:00:38Z phoe_: well, damn.
2017-09-22T20:01:07Z phoe_: What is the simplest way of concatenating a vector to itself X times?
2017-09-22T20:01:12Z jasom: Bike: that contradicts an earlier part that says that for-as-equals can be interleaved
2017-09-22T20:01:23Z phoe_: I want something that's codable quickly, not necessarily something optimized.
2017-09-22T20:01:24Z Bike: Earlier?
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2017-09-22T20:02:15Z jasom: Bike: oh, nm misread something; that was about lexical environment, not about other forms
2017-09-22T20:02:17Z Bike: phoe_ (loop with concatenated repeat n do (setf concatenated (concatenate 'vector concatenated x)) finally (return concatenated))?
2017-09-22T20:02:43Z Bike: (apply #'concatenate 'vector (make-list n :initial-element x))
2017-09-22T20:03:04Z phoe_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss222_w.htm
2017-09-22T20:03:24Z phoe_: Bike: the second one is great, thank you
2017-09-22T20:03:30Z jasom: There's also "Some clauses from the source form contribute code only to the loop prologue; these clauses must come before other clauses that are in the main body of the loop form." which while true implies something different from the grammar, which is that all clauses that contribute code to the loop prologue must come before other clauses
2017-09-22T20:03:48Z phoe_: Is this issue about this, or...?
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2017-09-22T20:05:17Z shrdlu68: phoe_: Hmm, how about adjust-array with initial-contents?
2017-09-22T20:06:23Z jasom: phoe_: that issue is *not* about this
2017-09-22T20:06:26Z phoe_: jasom: yes, I realized.
2017-09-22T20:06:29Z phoe_: it's about lexenvs.
2017-09-22T20:06:38Z phoe_: shrdlu68: concatenating a list is good enough for me
2017-09-22T20:06:40Z phoe_: what Bike said
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2017-09-22T20:08:11Z jasom: also the quote I posted earlier means that all with and initially clauses must proceed any other clauses
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2017-09-22T20:19:36Z dim: phoe_: make a (* X length) vector, then replace its content in a loop from the original vector, same amount of code, much faster
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2017-09-22T20:22:16Z phoe_: dim: actually more code than apply #'concatenate 'vector make-list :initial-element.
2017-09-22T20:22:46Z phoe_: But then again, I'm lazy, and this stuff does not go into production.
2017-09-22T20:25:26Z dim: ok ok
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2017-09-22T20:27:27Z dim: (let* ((v (make-array 10 :initial-contents '(a b c d e f g h i j))) (l (length v)) (n 3) (newvec (make-array (* l n)))) (loop for i from 0 upto (* (- l 1) n) by l do (replace newvec v :start1 i) :finally (return newvec)))
2017-09-22T20:27:35Z dim: ok I had to write it, because I said it would be easy
2017-09-22T20:28:04Z dim: at first write I forgot to type :start1 and then debugging wasn't easy ;-)
2017-09-22T20:28:54Z dim: nice distraction, thanks
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2017-09-22T20:50:21Z phoe_: this was the most funny piece of Lisp I wrote today
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2017-09-22T20:50:22Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356583
2017-09-22T20:50:25Z phoe_: dim: oh wow, thanks
2017-09-22T20:53:18Z phoe_: dim: why (- l 1)?
2017-09-22T20:53:32Z phoe_: it seems to skip the last iteration in that case
2017-09-22T20:53:39Z phoe_: l works better for me
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2017-09-22T21:05:49Z Fare: phoe_, you could be using uiop:nest
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2017-09-22T21:20:31Z dim: phoe_: brainfart from me maybe? the idea was to avoid overrunning the buffer, because you copy from i to i+l at each turn, when l=n you're done already, so you stop at i=l-n
2017-09-22T21:20:38Z dim: well you still have to do that run...
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2017-09-22T21:35:33Z whoman: phoe_: oh no...
2017-09-22T21:37:33Z phoe_: Fare: I might, but it's too late for me right now
2017-09-22T21:37:38Z phoe_: dim: oh well, works for me with the fix
2017-09-22T21:37:40Z phoe_: whoman: oh no?
2017-09-22T21:38:07Z phoe_: I need to disappear to sleep now
2017-09-22T21:38:11Z phoe_: good night!
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2017-09-22T21:58:23Z Fare: phoe, still time for the next piece of code
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2017-09-23T02:00:35Z coreutils: What is the difference between setq and setf?
2017-09-23T02:00:39Z coreutils: Which one to use?
2017-09-23T02:00:42Z coreutils is now known as newcoder
2017-09-23T02:01:02Z whoman: #'symbol-value and #'symbol-function
2017-09-23T02:01:15Z whoman: oops, no..
2017-09-23T02:07:07Z Bicyclidine: newcoder: just use setf.
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2017-09-23T02:12:19Z Fare: coreutils: setq is a particular case of setf for variables
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2017-09-23T02:12:44Z Fare: (and actually turns to setf for variable-macros, I believe)
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2017-09-23T02:15:11Z newcoder: Can we use (let x 5) instead of (setf x 5) ?
2017-09-23T02:16:14Z newcoder: How can we use (let ..)?
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2017-09-23T02:19:22Z pierpa: LET establishes a new binding, that is it creates a new variabl. SETF modifies an existing place
2017-09-23T02:20:15Z pierpa: (let ((x 5)) <body>)
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2017-09-23T02:36:02Z newcoder: What is <body> here?
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2017-09-23T02:42:24Z iqubic: newcoder: a bunch of sexps in a row. Nothing to special about body here.
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2017-09-23T03:10:19Z jmercouris: newcoder: they're just saying, put whatever you wanted to do with X in place of <body>
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2017-09-23T03:15:46Z newcoder: jmercouris: (let ((x 5)) 6) will set the x to 6?
2017-09-23T03:17:52Z Bike: no, it binds x to 5, for the duration of the body (6)
2017-09-23T03:18:12Z newcoder: What is duration of body 6?
2017-09-23T03:18:12Z Bike: in which there is no x, so it just returns 6
2017-09-23T03:18:12Z trinitr0n is now known as couryhouse
2017-09-23T03:18:26Z Bike: in the code, "6", x is bound to 5
2017-09-23T03:18:48Z newcoder: Does let assign value to variable?
2017-09-23T03:19:09Z Bike: no, it binds.
2017-09-23T03:19:17Z newcoder: Ok
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2017-09-23T03:19:27Z Bike: when you do (let ((x 5)) some stuff), in the course of some stuff, x will be 5 okay bye.
2017-09-23T03:25:02Z jmercouris: Bike: maybe his connection died?
2017-09-23T03:25:12Z jmercouris: their*
2017-09-23T03:25:42Z Bike: maybe they were assassinated
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2017-09-23T03:25:57Z jmercouris: hopefully not
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2017-09-23T03:43:09Z aeth: jmercouris: the connection did not die, that's Ping Timeout or Connection Reset by Peer
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2017-09-23T03:45:52Z edgar-rft: is here the new cementery for dead connections?
2017-09-23T03:46:22Z edgar-rft: * cemetery of course
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2017-09-23T04:19:01Z jmercouris: aeth: maybe he pressed quit and then immediately therafter the connection died
2017-09-23T04:20:52Z drmeister: Are there any multi threading wizards about?   I'm trying to adapt beach's fast generic function approach to multi-threading - my first attempts all deadlock.
2017-09-23T04:21:02Z drmeister: I don't even know how to describe the problem at the moment.
2017-09-23T04:21:14Z jmercouris: drmeister: I'm pretty good with multi-threading, just not in lisp
2017-09-23T04:21:18Z jmercouris: is it a lisp specific type of question?
2017-09-23T04:21:44Z iqubic: jmercouris: me too. I know how threads work in Java and in Haskell, but not in lisp.
2017-09-23T04:22:16Z drmeister: When I made clasp multi-threaded it was pretty straightforward.   Attach a read/write lock to sensitive objects, write protect resources when I was writing them and read protect them when I was reading them.
2017-09-23T04:22:27Z drmeister: No it's not a lisp specific thing.
2017-09-23T04:23:15Z drmeister: I've implemented this algorithm for generic function dispatch that involves compiling a dispatch function when it's needed.
2017-09-23T04:24:30Z drmeister: Each generic function maintains a 'call history' - an alist of selectors and effective methods.
2017-09-23T04:25:05Z drmeister: When the call-history changes, the current dispatcher is invalidated (it's pointed at the function 'invalidated-dispatcher')
2017-09-23T04:25:54Z drmeister: If a generic function is called and it enters 'invalidated-dispatcher' it compiles a new dispatch function based on the call history and points the generic function at this new dispatch function.
2017-09-23T04:26:12Z drmeister: So a call to a generic function can cause the generic function to change its internals.
2017-09-23T04:26:20Z jmercouris: drmeister: I've read your messages several times, and I still don't understand what you're trying to do
2017-09-23T04:26:30Z drmeister: Now - get all this working in a multithreaded environment where any thread can call any generic function at any time.
2017-09-23T04:26:50Z jmercouris: what is generic function dispatch exactly? you just want to execute functions from a pool of threads?
2017-09-23T04:27:15Z jmercouris: you have a queue of functions that need to be called?
2017-09-23T04:27:22Z drmeister: jmercouris: Have you used Common Lisp generic functions?
2017-09-23T04:27:38Z jmercouris: drmeister: I'm not sure, possibly and I don't know the term for them, I'm still quite new to common lisp
2017-09-23T04:27:54Z jmercouris: drmeister: I believe they are basically implementatinos of methods?
2017-09-23T04:27:59Z jmercouris: or am I totally wrong here?
2017-09-23T04:28:08Z drmeister: No problem.   Generic functions are like C++ virtual methods - but you can dispatch on any combination of arguments.
2017-09-23T04:28:18Z jmercouris: I also don't know C++, I'm sorry :\
2017-09-23T04:28:36Z drmeister: C++, Python, Smalltalk - these are all 'single dispatch' languages.  You select a method based on the class of one argument.
2017-09-23T04:28:40Z jmercouris: Ah it is an abstract method
2017-09-23T04:28:42Z jmercouris: okay, got it
2017-09-23T04:28:55Z jmercouris: or perhaps an interface in java
2017-09-23T04:29:03Z drmeister: Common Lisp uses generic dispatch - you can select methods based on any combination of arguments.
2017-09-23T04:29:08Z drmeister: No - none of these.
2017-09-23T04:29:22Z drmeister: Say you want to print objects to different devices.
2017-09-23T04:29:30Z jmercouris: ok
2017-09-23T04:29:40Z drmeister: You would say (defgeneric print-thing (object device))
2017-09-23T04:29:51Z jmercouris: ok
2017-09-23T04:30:04Z drmeister: Then you can write methods like (defmethod print-thing ((obj circle) (device printer)) ...)
2017-09-23T04:30:24Z drmeister: Or (defmethod print-thing ((obj circle) (device screen)) ...)
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2017-09-23T04:30:38Z jmercouris: did you mean to write (defmethod print-thing ((object circle) (device printer)) ..)
2017-09-23T04:30:48Z jmercouris: or does the name object not matter, just that there should be an arg there?
2017-09-23T04:30:57Z drmeister: When you invoke (print-thing x d) the system selects at run-time the appropriate methods.
2017-09-23T04:31:13Z jmercouris: based on what exactly? based on if you have right object type? or whatever else you want?
2017-09-23T04:31:29Z jmercouris: how does it do the type matching?
2017-09-23T04:31:41Z drmeister: In this case - based on both of the classes of the two arguments.
2017-09-23T04:32:03Z jmercouris: ok I see, let me re-read your problem then and see if I understand it now
2017-09-23T04:33:04Z jmercouris: ah I see
2017-09-23T04:33:07Z jmercouris: I understand your problem now
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2017-09-23T04:33:10Z drmeister: How it does the type matching is there is a slow path - where it calculates the method from the arguments when it hasn't seen that combination of argument classes.  It does this in a very slow, complicated way.
2017-09-23T04:33:23Z drmeister: Then there is a fast path where it uses memoized results from the slow path.
2017-09-23T04:33:49Z jmercouris: My question to you, is, is there a timing issue that can result in a loop of operations for you?
2017-09-23T04:34:14Z jmercouris: Like, a dependency on a dependency? I mean, it should be obvious because you said "deadlock", but can you inspect the threads?
2017-09-23T04:34:28Z drmeister: The way to quickly recapitulate the memoized results is what I've just implemented.  It's fancy because it compiles on the fly a new dispatch function that dispatches to the appropriate code with the absolute minimum number of memory accesses.
2017-09-23T04:34:53Z jmercouris: Right so basically these functions are running right
2017-09-23T04:35:02Z jmercouris: and you want to inform them, "hey, you've been recompiled" mid execution
2017-09-23T04:35:06Z jmercouris: and this could happen at any time, right?
2017-09-23T04:35:08Z drmeister: I can inspect the threads - but there are some barriers to interpreting the stack traces.
2017-09-23T04:35:31Z jmercouris: can you reliably reproduce deadlock?
2017-09-23T04:35:50Z drmeister: My backend is llvm and I'm using the JIT to generate code and dispatch functions.   There is no debug information - not even function names associated with JITted code.
2017-09-23T04:36:06Z jmercouris: That makes this far more complex...
2017-09-23T04:36:20Z jmercouris: I was about to suggest maintaining several output streams to see the state of the threads as they enter deadlock..
2017-09-23T04:36:22Z drmeister: I can reliably reproduce the problem - but it changes subtly each time and it takes several minutes to reproduce.
2017-09-23T04:37:02Z jmercouris: interesting, yeah, it would be very complex to try to visualize what is happening just from the memory
2017-09-23T04:37:19Z jmercouris: without a stacktrace I can't even imagine how I'd start debugging it
2017-09-23T04:37:38Z drmeister: I do have quite a lot of logging/debugging code written for this - but I'll have to rewrite it because I didn't write it in the first place to handle multiple threads. Hmmmmm....
2017-09-23T04:37:48Z jmercouris: I think one of your few options is to try to make a script or something that recreates this problem reliably
2017-09-23T04:37:58Z jmercouris: because only then will you be able to know how to cause it, and it may give you some hints
2017-09-23T04:37:59Z drmeister: As I said that I realized I might have an angle on getting per-thread logging messages.
2017-09-23T04:38:50Z drmeister: The problem surfaces when I compile slime after wiping out the .slime cache.
2017-09-23T04:39:02Z jmercouris: there's too many unknowns there
2017-09-23T04:39:10Z drmeister: Welcome to my world.
2017-09-23T04:39:10Z jmercouris: I don't know how your slime is configured, and there's a lot of stuff going on
2017-09-23T04:39:18Z jmercouris: I think you have to make a really small example
2017-09-23T04:39:25Z drmeister: It's set up for multithreading using :spawn.
2017-09-23T04:39:36Z drmeister: Everything works fine when I run slime in a single threaded mode.
2017-09-23T04:39:42Z jmercouris: like a compilation script and maybe like one source file
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2017-09-23T04:40:38Z drmeister: I will put some time into generating a per-thread log.
2017-09-23T04:40:45Z jmercouris: drmeister: that may help yeah
2017-09-23T04:41:23Z drmeister: I have per-thread dynamic variables and the logging code uses a dynamic variable to store the stream for logging output.
2017-09-23T04:41:38Z drmeister: I should be able to hack things so that each thread writes out to a separate file.
2017-09-23T04:42:01Z jmercouris: drmeister: yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting :D
2017-09-23T04:42:08Z drmeister: Then maybe I can figure out where the problem is.
2017-09-23T04:42:15Z drmeister: Understood.
2017-09-23T04:42:15Z jmercouris: hopefully! best of luck!
2017-09-23T04:42:53Z drmeister: Thanks.
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2017-09-23T05:15:20Z pjb: drmeister: do you have a link to beach's fast generic function paper?
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2017-09-23T05:17:35Z drmeister: pjb: I google it every tine
2017-09-23T05:18:22Z pjb: ok, got it.
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2017-09-23T05:24:08Z vtomole: drmeister: I'm trying to implement a lisp intepreter in C, and i'm having a bit of trouble writing the parser. Do I need to implement a function that puts linked lists inside linked lists?
2017-09-23T05:27:08Z iqubic: Does C have support for heterogeneous data structures? I ask because lisp is basically just one giant heterogeneous data structure.
2017-09-23T05:28:06Z iqubic: I think C has support for them, but I don't rightfully know.
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2017-09-23T05:30:14Z vtomole: I was thing about just using structs for everything : struct cons{ data, *next}
2017-09-23T05:30:29Z pjb: drmeister: well, the critical section is the updating of the dispatching functions of the generic functions.  This is the only place where you should need mutexes, when you update the generic functions (ie. when classes or methods are changed).
2017-09-23T05:31:06Z pjb: iqubic: you can use unions in C.
2017-09-23T05:31:16Z pjb: iqubic: you have to be careful, to use them portably.
2017-09-23T05:32:10Z pjb: vtomole: start by writing your interpreter in lisp, it'll be easier.  Then you may write a translator for the subset of lisp you used to implement your lisp interpreter in lisp, to translate it to C…
2017-09-23T05:34:13Z iqubic: pjb: that is what you call bootstrapping. Or, well, more like reverse bootstrapping.
2017-09-23T05:34:19Z vtomole: I  did. I then had to implement cons() in C and I don't think I did it right cause my recursion parsing is not working correctly.
2017-09-23T05:34:50Z pjb: vtomole: I fail to see the link between implementing cons and implementing a recursive parser.
2017-09-23T05:36:16Z iqubic: pjb: I think the issue is knowing where the closing bracket of the cdr of a particular cons cell is.
2017-09-23T05:36:31Z iqubic: Or at least finding the right closing bracket.
2017-09-23T05:36:34Z vtomole: You call cons in the parser to add the token  to the tree (linked list)
2017-09-23T05:36:39Z pjb: Again, I fail to see the link between closing parentheses and cons cells.
2017-09-23T05:37:09Z pjb: Notably, #(1 2 3) creates a vector, not cons cells.
2017-09-23T05:37:11Z vtomole: Using this as a reference worked for me in Lisp. C is a different animal: http://norvig.com/lispy.html
2017-09-23T05:37:27Z vtomole: From that page :def read_from_tokens(tokens):     "Read an expression from a sequence of tokens."     if len(tokens) == 0:         raise SyntaxError('unexpected EOF while reading')     token = tokens.pop(0)     if '(' == token:         L = []         while tokens[0] != ')':             L.append(read_from_tokens(tokens))         tokens.pop(0) # pop off ')'         return L     elif ')' == token:         raise SyntaxError('unexpected )')   
2017-09-23T05:37:28Z pjb: and #S(foo :x 1 :y 2) creates a structure, not cons cells.
2017-09-23T05:37:35Z vtomole: opps sorry to big
2017-09-23T05:37:56Z iqubic: In order to parse lisp I would first create an ast of the code, then interpret that ast.
2017-09-23T05:38:14Z pjb: Perhaps you should read: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2017-09-23T05:38:42Z iqubic: Why is MAL such a popular thing these days?
2017-09-23T05:39:10Z vtomole: Its fun.  I feel like it's always been popular.
2017-09-23T05:39:46Z pjb: And given that lisp objects such as cons cells are such a fundamental and basic layer, it should have been developed and tested heavily long berfore you started writing the parser!
2017-09-23T05:39:46Z vtomole: iqubic: I'm trying to create an AST of the code using linked lists.
2017-09-23T05:40:36Z iqubic: I'm not sure I see the issue. Can you share your code with use so that we might help you?
2017-09-23T05:41:48Z vtomole: I'm basically trying to translate this to C: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356603. Let me organize my code first before I post.
2017-09-23T05:42:29Z vtomole: The poblem is when I call read_tokens() recursively. I get an infinite loop.
2017-09-23T05:42:41Z vtomole: *read_from_tokens()
2017-09-23T05:42:55Z iqubic: Why not just use that python code? Or is that buggy too?
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2017-09-23T05:43:43Z vtomole: It works. Translating it to C is the problem.
2017-09-23T05:43:46Z stylewarning: Does anyone have a fix for: Warning (slime): Caught error during fontification while searching for forms that are suppressed by reader-conditionals. The error was: (args-out-of-range "" 0).
2017-09-23T05:43:51Z stylewarning: It is the most annoying kind of pop-up window
2017-09-23T05:44:12Z vtomole: Cause C doesn't have a built in list implementation
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2017-09-23T06:10:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-23T06:11:32Z beach: phoe: The LOOP implementation used by SBCL is not conforming.
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2017-09-23T06:20:00Z vtomole: I'm basically trying to put a linked list inside of a linked list((cons (token, read_from_tokens(cdr(token_list))));, but i'm running into an infinite loop:http://paste.lisp.org/display/356606
2017-09-23T06:20:43Z pjb: vtomole: you didn't use a union, as I told you hours ago.
2017-09-23T06:20:58Z vtomole: its been hours?
2017-09-23T06:21:09Z vtomole: What are the differences?
2017-09-23T06:21:20Z pjb: It feels like it.
2017-09-23T06:22:42Z pjb: vtomole: honestly, you should first try to learn C programming. Try ##c.
2017-09-23T06:22:56Z iqubic: But yeah, a union is better for that than a pair of strings. What would happen if the strings got mismatched?
2017-09-23T06:23:00Z vtomole: Sure
2017-09-23T06:23:10Z |3b|: in CL conses can store anything in CAR or CDR
2017-09-23T06:23:30Z |3b|: and CONSes should just be objects like any other
2017-09-23T06:24:32Z iqubic: And a pair of strings is a bad way to store anything. A union is a way better way to do that.
2017-09-23T06:25:08Z beach: Why a union?  Why not just a struct cons?
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2017-09-23T06:25:45Z vtomole: Thats what I thought. But apparently I suck at C.
2017-09-23T06:25:50Z |3b| assumes union would be to add tagging, and would store struct cons and anything else
2017-09-23T06:26:17Z beach: vtomole: And I would use void* for general pointers.
2017-09-23T06:26:29Z beach: char* is so pre-ANSI C.
2017-09-23T06:26:52Z |3b|: other option would be to play tricks with pointers like most native implementations do, but i'd probably avoid that without a lot of knowledge of C spec to avoid undefined behavior, and implementation details
2017-09-23T06:27:14Z vtomole: Yeah I did that earlier, but that would mean I need to keep track of types so that I can dereference them when I need the value.
2017-09-23T06:29:32Z beach: You need to do that anyway since Lisp is dynamically typed.
2017-09-23T06:36:02Z vtomole: hmm unions or structs..
2017-09-23T06:37:15Z beach: I would use a struct for each kind of object and a void* for a field that should contain some other object.  And you need to include the type somehow so that you can figure that out at run-time.
2017-09-23T06:39:07Z vtomole: I'll do that then. Also need to learn about unions.
2017-09-23T06:43:15Z vtomole: Thanks beach
2017-09-23T06:46:59Z beach: Yes, you might want a union in order to include the type.
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2017-09-23T06:49:08Z vtomole: How about a struct that includes the type?
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2017-09-23T06:52:27Z |3b|: you would either put the type in all of the structs, use a union to associate the type with all structs
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2017-09-23T06:54:24Z vtomole: Okay. Thanks
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2017-09-23T07:44:32Z guicho: hi
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2017-09-23T07:48:09Z beach: Hello guicho.
2017-09-23T07:48:18Z PuercoPop: hi guicho
2017-09-23T07:48:30Z guicho: hi, thanks
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2017-09-23T07:50:55Z guicho: I don't usually come here unless I beg your collective knowledge. so as expected, I have a question.
2017-09-23T07:51:28Z guicho: I forgot the name of a cl project for matrix operations. it was on github. the readme stated that one of its main difference from the other libraries is that it overrides the standard operator such as *, + as a CLOS method. Could you identify this library?
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2017-09-23T07:52:29Z guicho: it seemed a mature and fairly large project. could not find in quickdocs.
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2017-09-23T07:54:38Z PuercoPop: this one? https://github.com/matlisp/matlisp
2017-09-23T07:57:27Z guicho: no, not this one.
2017-09-23T07:58:19Z guicho: https://gist.github.com/guicho271828/23e5d474adcd9890b9d41b622f458644 these are not what Im looking for
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2017-09-23T08:34:04Z guicho: I hope this is not the case that I literally *dreamed* this library ... and remembering this as if I actually saw it...
2017-09-23T08:38:48Z edgar-rft: guicho: my guess is <https://common-lisp.net/project/lisplab/>
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2017-09-23T08:44:45Z guicho: mmm, sorry, it is not.
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2017-09-23T11:36:29Z edgar-rft: guicho, cl-ana provides its own versions of the basic math functions CL gives you but with the ability to extend them for whatever types you want: <https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana>
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2017-09-23T11:48:49Z whoman: =/
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2017-09-23T11:50:13Z edgar-rft: whoman: equal-or-divisor?
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2017-09-23T11:50:47Z whoman: bitter taste
2017-09-23T11:51:19Z whoman: subconsciously thinking, "CL could have already had ability to extend basic math funs if it were golden idea"
2017-09-23T11:51:41Z whoman: but same with the other nice libs such as alexandria and ppcre cffi etc
2017-09-23T11:54:01Z edgar-rft: I think the main problem here is that number-crunching needs all speed you can get out of any programming language. A full generic dispatch on every basic math function is way too slow for that.
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2017-09-23T12:06:51Z whoman: that is what i figured ~
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2017-09-23T12:25:44Z guicho: edgar-rft, wow, thank you that. yes this is what I was looking for. so this is why keywords like "matrix" nor "array" didn't work.
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2017-09-23T13:01:54Z edgar-rft: guicho, I knew I had read that somewhere, but same problem like you, the internet is way too big and Google is way too ignorant about Lisp.
2017-09-23T13:04:16Z Josh_2: Most people are ignorant about Lisp. Peoples reaction when I say I like CL the most is normally some form of "ermagurd how could you?"
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2017-09-23T13:09:39Z Fare: it's not a matter of ignorance, but of paradigm incommensurability.
2017-09-23T13:09:45Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: that's good because it means you only need some mediocre Lisp knowledge to beat them all
2017-09-23T13:09:56Z Fare: or of a "failure of systems thinking".
2017-09-23T13:10:09Z Fare: most people can't fathom the systems paradigm
2017-09-23T13:10:14Z Fare: they are software creationists.
2017-09-23T13:12:36Z Josh_2: Mediocre is too kind.
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2017-09-23T13:15:47Z dim: I have the good luck to learn lisp at school, in between C++ and Java. Unfortunately the teacher was so ignorant about it that we only played with cons, car and cdr and we had to answer cryptic exercises of no value. I guess the whole class was disgusted and saw no point in Lisp at all.
2017-09-23T13:15:49Z p_l: Programmers in general are unaware of what was done in the past
2017-09-23T13:16:02Z dim: the teacher's curriculum was all about Object Oriented Programming
2017-09-23T13:16:13Z dim: imaging her knowing and teaching CLOS
2017-09-23T13:16:15Z p_l: dim: that's common case in the vestigal courses that introduce various forms of programming
2017-09-23T13:16:39Z dim: no wonders that then programmers think Lisp is just an old thing that couldn't survive
2017-09-23T13:16:48Z dim: if we teach them it's useless
2017-09-23T13:16:59Z p_l: dim: in my case, I believe we had a bit of Prolog instead, don't recall if we had lisp directly, but we had a lisp-derived language (Jess) much later on
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2017-09-23T13:17:40Z dim: I know I'm teaching my kids Racket when they ask me for programming
2017-09-23T13:17:42Z p_l: (JESS is a Java implementation of a superset of CLIPS which is derived from Lisp)
2017-09-23T13:18:00Z dim: (because the tutorial in pictures is awesome for kids)
2017-09-23T13:18:35Z dim: Java has ABCL and Kawa too, and Clojure nowadays, if you depend on the JVM to run programs... but anyway
2017-09-23T13:18:48Z dim: so I think it's a matter of ignorance mainly
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2017-09-23T13:19:09Z dim: maybe of curiosity too
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2017-09-23T13:39:40Z p_l: dim: Clojure is the only one that is widely known unless someone takes special effort to find
2017-09-23T13:40:05Z p_l: you can't search for something if you don't even know what to search for, after all
2017-09-23T13:41:36Z dim: my understanding is that there's a whole “new” field about that, this SEO thing
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2017-09-23T13:53:53Z Baggers googles lisp. lisp the lang beats lisp the condition, then its common-lisp.net then it's gigamonkeys
2017-09-23T13:54:56Z dim: you know that your google results depend on your habits and who you are seen from Google, right? e.g. if I search for “postmodern” the first result I have is the PostgreSQL driver for Common Lisp…
2017-09-23T13:55:32Z Baggers: did it from safari without being logged into anything. guess they are basing on ip then
2017-09-23T13:55:48Z dim: more than that but that's the idea
2017-09-23T13:56:23Z dim: https://amiunique.org/ explains to some degreee
2017-09-23T13:57:25Z edgar-rft: Search engines are not "intelligent" by default. If nearly nobody searches for Lisp stuff, Google can't know. Just as simple as that.
2017-09-23T13:57:53Z Baggers: fwiw got the same on chrome that I just ran for the first time on a phone i've just flashed in icognito mode and on 4g
2017-09-23T13:58:17Z dim: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/02/now-sites-can-fingerprint-you-online-even-when-you-use-multiple-browsers/
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2017-09-23T13:58:38Z dim: https://panopticlick.eff.org might be better than amiunique
2017-09-23T13:58:48Z dim: I can't find again what I had seen some years ago about that
2017-09-23T13:58:53Z Baggers: not saying they dont. Just saying thats pretty impresive in that latter case
2017-09-23T13:59:01Z dim: anyway a combination of many parameters makes you unique on the internet
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2017-09-23T14:00:06Z edgar-rft is unique by default
2017-09-23T14:04:34Z Baggers would love to know what someone using some anonymizer/vpn/etc gets for googling lisp. 
2017-09-23T14:04:40Z Baggers guesses clojure is further down than CL
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2017-09-23T15:52:02Z phoe_: oh fuck endianness
2017-09-23T15:52:17Z phoe_: my vector has ARGB data in A R G B order
2017-09-23T15:52:51Z phoe_: where the library seemingly expects B G R A as it reads these values not as four (unsigned-byte 8)s but rather as one (unsigned-byte 32) which of course is little-endian
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2017-09-23T15:54:23Z phoe_: How can I loop for multiple variables across a vector? Can LOOP handle it?
2017-09-23T15:55:29Z Bicyclidine: uhm.... might be able to destructure but probably not go four at a time
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2017-09-23T15:56:22Z edgar-rft: (reverse #(R G B A)) => #(A B G R) if that helps
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2017-09-23T15:58:39Z phoe_: edgar-rft: I'm passing a whole vector to Qtools's QImage to be displayed, so this doesn't help me.
2017-09-23T15:58:58Z edgar-rft: it was only an idea...
2017-09-23T15:59:01Z phoe_: It looks like I'll have to re-endian them manually, since that works.
2017-09-23T15:59:08Z phoe_: edgar-rft: it's good, it would work in a different scenario
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2017-09-23T16:04:29Z pjb: phoe_: loop is Turing complete.
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2017-09-23T16:05:29Z pjb: phoe_: (loop for i :below (length v) :by 4 :do (rotatef (aref v i) (aref v (+ i 3))) (rotatef (aref v (+ i 1)) (aref v (+ i 2))))
2017-09-23T16:08:06Z phoe_: pjb: I know, I know.
2017-09-23T16:08:23Z Bike: snobol is also turing complete, why not use snobol instead of lisp
2017-09-23T16:08:38Z pjb: Missing s-exps.
2017-09-23T16:12:09Z pjb: phoe_: but the point is that when you have vector with O(1) access, you can loop with any O(1) number of variables by indexing the vector!
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2017-09-23T16:17:47Z phoe_: pjb: I actually did exactly the same thing as you, but with much more code.
2017-09-23T16:18:02Z phoe_: Since I used four FOR AREFs and four SETF AREFs.
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2017-09-23T16:20:08Z newcoder: What are the area where lisp is best for?
2017-09-23T16:20:36Z pjb: newcoder: https://franz.com/success/
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2017-09-23T16:22:12Z Josh_2: solving very complex problems/prototyping
2017-09-23T16:22:32Z Josh_2: Or because C++ sucks and you need to get away from it for a while :P
2017-09-23T16:22:42Z newcoder: What is prototyping?
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2017-09-23T16:23:00Z pjb: phoe_: now, of course, the right answer would be to update your functional asbtractions: (defun red (pixmap index) (aref pixmap (+ 2 index))) instead of (defun red (pixmap index) (aref pixmap (+ 1 index))) etc.
2017-09-23T16:23:14Z Josh_2: Where you want to make a mock product quickly
2017-09-23T16:23:32Z pjb: newcoder: writing the first version of a program that the programmer things will never be used by users, but that the manager has already sold and will distribute world wide.
2017-09-23T16:24:07Z Josh_2: pjb: that's pretty on point haha
2017-09-23T16:24:24Z newcoder: Josh_2: What is mock product?
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2017-09-23T16:25:16Z pjb: a sketch, a model.
2017-09-23T16:25:35Z pjb: You have two ways to do it: the wrong, and the okay.
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2017-09-23T16:26:14Z pjb: The wrong way is to implement a user interface, to have a feel of how it will look, but not the internals.  This is wrong, because then you will spend 2 years hearing why doesn't it work, since the UI is already done!
2017-09-23T16:26:47Z pjb: The okay way is to implement the core functionality/algorithm, and to stick a CLI on it, to validate the "MVP".
2017-09-23T16:27:11Z newcoder: pjb: What is MVP?
2017-09-23T16:27:33Z pjb: Minimum Viable Product.
2017-09-23T16:27:41Z newcoder: pjb: So you will write cli code, not gui things
2017-09-23T16:27:54Z pjb: Well only if it's faster to do than GUI.
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2017-09-23T16:28:48Z pjb: The advantage of CLI nowadays, is that no user expect to have to use it.  So you can demonstrate the feature: look, I enter this data, I get this result, without the user expecting to have a finished product.
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2017-09-23T16:30:25Z newcoder: You can write C++ program without gui to get the same result too, can't you?
2017-09-23T16:30:28Z newcoder: Josh_2: ^
2017-09-23T16:30:46Z pjb: Indeed.
2017-09-23T16:30:49Z Josh_2: Yeh, but it'll take 100 times longer
2017-09-23T16:31:31Z Josh_2: I'm not a very skilled Lisper but I can write programs much faster in Lisp than I can in C++
2017-09-23T16:31:35Z newcoder: Josh_2: You may be wrong
2017-09-23T16:31:51Z Josh_2: Well 100 times is hyperbole, but I hope you get the point
2017-09-23T16:32:57Z pjb: Check numbers at http://cliki.net/Performance
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2017-09-23T16:43:49Z mr_yogurt: Are there any big utility libraries (maybe something like boost, although not exactly boost since a lot of it is unnecessary for CL) for common lisp?
2017-09-23T16:44:13Z whoman: alexandria ?
2017-09-23T16:45:19Z whoman: https://github.com/trending/common-lisp
2017-09-23T16:45:43Z pjb: Alexandria is small. There are a lot of big utility libraries.
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2017-09-23T16:51:47Z mr_yogurt: pjb: such as?
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2017-09-23T16:52:29Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum
2017-09-23T16:52:43Z pjb: the whole quicklisp, really.
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2017-09-23T17:21:19Z phoe_: What is the easiest way of destructuring a vector?
2017-09-23T17:21:27Z phoe_: Other than coercing it to a list and DESTRUCTURING-BIND?
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2017-09-23T17:23:26Z pjb: phoe_: I told you, above!
2017-09-23T17:24:05Z pjb: (let ((a (aref pixmap (+ 0 index))) (r  (aref pixmap (+ 1 index))) (g  (aref pixmap (+ 2 index))) (b  (aref pixmap (+ 3 index)))) …)
2017-09-23T17:24:59Z kenanb: I am feeding an ADJUSTABLE-ARRAY of type STRING with WORDs, I was expecting if I ADJUST-ARRAY with (LENGTH WORD) and just VECTOR-PUSH, it would perform better than doing VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND for every single character. but it performed much worse. any quick ideas or would you like to check the source instead?
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2017-09-23T17:26:19Z kenanb: sbcl sources doesn't call adjust-array but an extend-vector routine, so I guess it is a vector specific optimization
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2017-09-23T17:26:36Z pjb: kenanb: vector-push needs a fill-pointer.  It doesn't need it to be adjustable.
2017-09-23T17:26:46Z Bike: vector-push-extend doesn't usually extend the vector only by one
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2017-09-23T17:28:12Z kenanb: pjb: but i need the string to be adjustable
2017-09-23T17:28:29Z pjb: you perhaps, but for vector-push it's irrelevant.
2017-09-23T17:28:48Z Bike: incredible advice
2017-09-23T17:28:54Z pjb: The only thing is that if it's adjustable without a fill-pointer, then it will adjust the vector, copying O(n) each time!
2017-09-23T17:29:13Z kenanb: Bike: ah, I see. So my optimization idea was rubbish all the way
2017-09-23T17:29:37Z Bike: still, i'd be surprised if using adjust-array yourself was that much less performant
2017-09-23T17:29:50Z pjb: kenanb: use (vector-push-extend e v (length v))
2017-09-23T17:30:18Z pjb: with v = (make-array 8 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t)
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2017-09-23T17:30:52Z kenanb: pjb: yeah, I guess I will keep doubling the size, good idea
2017-09-23T17:31:27Z kenanb: Bike: I will paste it now, including the timings
2017-09-23T17:34:08Z kenanb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356661
2017-09-23T17:34:40Z kenanb: I intentionally start with 0 size so I see how much allocation effects the  timings better.
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2017-09-23T17:34:58Z kenanb: otherwise, I am aware that is kind of stupid
2017-09-23T17:35:30Z Bike: oh, i see, for the adjust-array you only adjust it by enough for the word, so you adjust every single iteration.
2017-09-23T17:36:02Z Bike: for vector push extend you call it in the inner loop, so it would be catstrophic if it only adjusted by one letter as you expected, but that's not the case.
2017-09-23T17:36:44Z kenanb: yeah, after you said that, I immediately realized how faulty my expectation was
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2017-09-23T17:37:22Z Bike: i used to think of it the same way, but since practically every time you call vector push extend would be in a loop, it wouldn't be a reasonable way for the function to work
2017-09-23T17:37:23Z kenanb: though I wonder if there is a generic extension strategy among implementations, maybe the one pjb suggested is already the way it works?
2017-09-23T17:37:31Z Bike: i think it is on sbcl
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2017-09-23T17:40:22Z kenanb: I get the exact same benchmark results when I add a min-extension of 1000 to the vector-push-extend, anything below results in longer times
2017-09-23T17:40:28Z kenanb: *than the default
2017-09-23T17:41:38Z Bike: weird
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2017-09-23T17:42:53Z kenanb: I will now try a version that first tries to push and if failed manually doubles the size, just to see if the timings will be close to the current best, but thank you Bike, pjb. now I at least know how to think about it.
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2017-09-23T17:46:42Z Bike: probably to get it going really faster you could do an algorithm change, like avoiding separately consing up the list of words from ppcre split
2017-09-23T17:47:00Z Bike: or estimating the length of the array like doing (make-array (* (length txt) 7) ...)
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2017-09-23T17:50:13Z kenanb: hmm, manually adjusting with big chunks if vector-push fails really gives the exact same timings, sometimes even slightly better, but this is not the best of benchmarks anyway.
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2017-09-23T17:52:13Z pjb: vector-push-extend without the third argument will probably increment the size of the array by 1.  So it's O(n).
2017-09-23T17:52:34Z kenanb: Bike: yeah, I am thinking of doing it for the actual implementation, this is for a blog post so I am modifying the code in small chunks
2017-09-23T17:52:37Z Bike: "probably?"
2017-09-23T17:52:43Z pjb: You must use a third argument O(length(v)) for it to be amortized O(1)!
2017-09-23T17:52:52Z pjb: Bike: it depends on the implementation.
2017-09-23T17:53:09Z kenanb: pjb: maybe in other implementations but SBCL definitely reserves way more
2017-09-23T17:53:46Z Bike: depends, yes, but that doesn't mean it's common
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2017-09-23T17:55:12Z pjb: Try: clall -r '(let* ((s 3) (a (make-array s :adjustable t :fill-pointer s :initial-element :a))) (vector-push-extend :b a) (array-dimension a 0))' # with different s had have fun!
2017-09-23T17:55:58Z kenanb: yeah, even if SBCL does the optimization automatically, manually extending by big chunks is going to perform better regardless of implementation, which is cool
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2017-09-23T17:56:20Z pjb: for small arrays, not all implementation increment by O(length(v)). but for larger sizes (>20), they all about double the size.
2017-09-23T17:57:40Z kenanb: does vector-push-extend only extends when the size is not enough, even if we supplied the min-extension arg?
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2017-09-23T17:57:57Z pjb: yes.
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2017-09-23T17:58:14Z pjb: Hence the interest of using fill-pointers: so vector-push-extend doesn't extend in general.
2017-09-23T17:58:23Z pjb: So it's O(1).
2017-09-23T17:58:54Z kenanb: if so, vector-push-extend already will do exactly what I am trying to achieve by trying vector-push first, and then doubling the size?
2017-09-23T17:59:16Z pjb: yes.
2017-09-23T17:59:24Z kenanb: well, then, there is zero reason to go adjust-array, you are right
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2017-09-23T18:16:27Z kenanb: also, the first version performed way better than I expected.
2017-09-23T18:17:15Z kenanb: the best timing i got from the last versions is around .11, so only 2 times faster.
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2017-09-23T18:24:16Z Josh_2: How do I abs two values? Or in C++ a complex like so http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/complex/abs/ I just made my "complex" a list of two numbers, not sure if I'm doing it right
2017-09-23T18:24:49Z White_Flame: abs is a unary operation
2017-09-23T18:25:29Z iqubic: Josh_2: do you want the distance between two points on the complex plane?
2017-09-23T18:25:40Z White_Flame: so (abs -1) => 1, or (abs #c(1 1)) => 1.4142135
2017-09-23T18:25:51Z iqubic: Or do you want the magnitude of a complex numbered.
2017-09-23T18:25:53Z Josh_2: That's what I"m looking for White_Flame :D
2017-09-23T18:25:56Z Josh_2: That #c
2017-09-23T18:26:07Z iqubic: Also, lisp has built in complex number support.
2017-09-23T18:26:11Z White_Flame: complex numbers are natively supported
2017-09-23T18:26:20Z Josh_2: I'm not sure what I want iqubic I am translating an algorithm from C++ to CL
2017-09-23T18:26:33Z White_Flame: (sqrt -1) => #C(0.0 1.0)
2017-09-23T18:26:47Z iqubic: What algorithm is it. Perhaps I can help.
2017-09-23T18:27:00Z Josh_2: Mandelbrot set
2017-09-23T18:27:06Z White_Flame: if you're injecting complex literals into your code, use #c.  Otherwise, any math that returns complex numbers should return complex numbers on their own
2017-09-23T18:27:27Z Josh_2: I've changed my code to use #c now, thanks White_Flame
2017-09-23T18:27:37Z White_Flame: if you have 2 numbers from which you want to construct a complex number, then it's (complex <real> <imag>)
2017-09-23T18:28:03Z iqubic: Ah. What you want to do is keep interating until the abs of z is 2 or greater.
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2017-09-23T18:29:33Z Josh_2: I think I might have it now.
2017-09-23T18:30:26Z iqubic: Can I see the code? This is a problem I am quite familiar with.
2017-09-23T18:32:09Z iqubic: I have done this task on three different machines.
2017-09-23T18:32:31Z iqubic: Or, err three different programming languages.
2017-09-23T18:33:14Z Josh_2: My code is a total mess at the moment
2017-09-23T18:34:20Z Josh_2: here is my bad version of the algorithm. http://paste.lisp.org/display/356670
2017-09-23T18:34:49Z Josh_2: I've actually had more trouble with exporting the results to a .tga file
2017-09-23T18:35:08Z Bike: why 0 and 255?
2017-09-23T18:35:13Z Bike: colors?
2017-09-23T18:35:17Z Josh_2: Black and white yeah
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2017-09-23T18:39:33Z iqubic: That looks like it will work well. Does it actually work?
2017-09-23T18:39:48Z iqubic: What library are you using to plot pixels on the screen?
2017-09-23T18:39:54Z Josh_2: Nope, sets all values to 255
2017-09-23T18:40:13Z Josh_2: I'm not plotting to the screen I'm saving to a tga image
2017-09-23T18:40:31Z Josh_2: although I wouldn't mind experimenting with a library that lets me plot pixels to the screen
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2017-09-23T18:48:01Z iqubic: Josh_2: why tga?
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2017-09-23T18:51:28Z francogrex: i defined my class (defclass my-class () ...) later on if i want to use it as (make-array length :element-type (vector my-class *)) << is this right (vector my-class *) ?
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2017-09-23T18:52:56Z Bike: That will make an array where the elements are vectors
2017-09-23T18:53:03Z Bike: well, if it's quoted i mean
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2017-09-23T18:58:06Z francogrex: Bike: vectors of type my-class? :element-type '(vector my-class *) ...
2017-09-23T18:59:12Z francogrex: it's a little bit disconcerting that the REPL prints the array with zeros as such #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0) no sense to what i defined it to be
2017-09-23T19:00:12Z kenanb: I was able to get much better timing with initially allocating 4 and multiplying the allocated size by 16 when required. I tried with various string lengths and it was always the best score.
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2017-09-23T19:05:21Z Bike: francogrex: element type is the type of the ELEMENTS of the array. (make-array length :element-type 'integer) is a vector of integers
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2017-09-23T19:09:34Z Fare: hi. Any old timer here to help me debug a program on Genera?
2017-09-23T19:09:42Z Fare: I don't remember how to get a backtrace
2017-09-23T19:11:20Z francogrex: yes that (make-array 5 :element-type 'integer)  returns an array with #(0 0 0 0 0) but when you do (make-array 5 :element-type '(vector integer 3)) why #(0 0 0 0 0) is also returned?
2017-09-23T19:11:43Z francogrex: unless I am making a stupid mistake somewhere
2017-09-23T19:12:04Z francogrex: 0 is not of type vector
2017-09-23T19:12:58Z Bike: Okay, so under the hood your lisp implementation probably only has special vectors for a few things.
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2017-09-23T19:13:16Z Bike: Like general lisp values (type T), characters, bits, small integers
2017-09-23T19:13:39Z Bike: it doesn't know about your particular class, or store vectors specially, or anything. So it "upgrades" that type specification to something it does know about, which is probably T.
2017-09-23T19:13:57Z Bike: If you do (array-element-type (make-array 5 :element-type '(vector integer 3))) you'll probably get T
2017-09-23T19:14:19Z francogrex: true
2017-09-23T19:16:32Z Fare: Select D took me to the documentation and Show Candidates Backtrace told me that c-B would show the backtrace
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2017-09-23T19:17:48Z francogrex: ok so (make-array 5 :element-type 'character) is fine, (make-array 5 :element-type 'bit) is fine (i mean shows what expected ... but that's just it the rest is T
2017-09-23T19:18:13Z francogrex: any way to change this behavior?
2017-09-23T19:18:35Z francogrex: so vector bit or anything else shows as it should?
2017-09-23T19:18:46Z Bicyclidine: your expectation is incorrect.
2017-09-23T19:19:30Z Bicyclidine: When you try to make a vector of (vector integer 3), it makes a vector of T. It picks 0 as an initial element, which is fine, because 0 is a T.
2017-09-23T19:19:46Z Bicyclidine: If you want some particular initial element you can specify it.
2017-09-23T19:19:47Z francogrex: yes that we already established
2017-09-23T19:20:10Z francogrex: (make-array 5 :element-type 'character) doesn't put 0s
2017-09-23T19:20:26Z francogrex: and :element-type (vector 'character .. should be 0
2017-09-23T19:20:30Z Bicyclidine: Because your implementation has special character arrays, and picked a different element for them.
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2017-09-23T19:20:49Z Bicyclidine: If you did (make-array 5 :element-type '(vector character)) you'd probably get #(0 0 0 0 0) again.
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2017-09-23T19:21:27Z francogrex: yes while it should be something like #("
2017-09-23T19:22:10Z Bicyclidine: Where is this "should" coming from?
2017-09-23T19:22:26Z Bicyclidine: If you want the vector to be filled with strings you can specify a string it can be filled with.
2017-09-23T19:22:58Z Bicyclidine: Lisp does not actually know how to take a type and make a valid "zero" object of that type anyway.
2017-09-23T19:22:58Z francogrex: no
2017-09-23T19:23:22Z francogrex: i want it to be filled with vectors as placeholders
2017-09-23T19:23:45Z francogrex: not 0s
2017-09-23T19:23:47Z francogrex: ok
2017-09-23T19:24:12Z Bicyclidine: So specify a vector. :initial-element "   "
2017-09-23T19:24:39Z francogrex: so where do those 0s come as default? Bicyclidine yes but in that case, the :element-type is irrelevant then
2017-09-23T19:24:56Z francogrex: not much use for that key param
2017-09-23T19:25:05Z francogrex: in most cases
2017-09-23T19:25:13Z Bicyclidine: Not when you want your element type to be a vector type, no. I think that was established by my explanation of upgrading.
2017-09-23T19:25:51Z Bicyclidine: The implementation can't really do anything special if it knows that an array is only going to hold vectors, because vectors are complicated objects. So it just uses its basic complicated object type, T
2017-09-23T19:26:26Z Bicyclidine: The 0 is probably just the default initial element for arrays specialized to hold general objects.
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2017-09-23T19:43:05Z francogrex: ok
2017-09-23T19:43:55Z francogrex: make sense now, i mean Bike already told me that too.
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2017-09-23T19:59:12Z stylewarning: PuercoPop: I found an issue with the recent FIASCO change to use synonym streams
2017-09-23T19:59:46Z phoe_: sounds like you want a multidimensional vector instead
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2017-09-23T20:18:31Z PuercoPop: stylewarning: oi, what is the issue?
2017-09-23T20:19:37Z PuercoPop: nvm, reading github
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2017-09-23T20:25:49Z PuercoPop: stylewarning: in retrospect it was a bad proposal on my part. If we use synonym streams we should just write the the *test-run-standard-output* instead
2017-09-23T20:27:45Z stylewarning: PuercoPop what about LOAD-TIME-VALUE ?
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2017-09-23T20:29:11Z PuercoPop: I'm not sure I understand the purpose of defining a stream for testing and then binding *standard-output* to it and write to *standard-ouput* instead of writing the stream directly
2017-09-23T20:29:34Z stylewarning: Maybe because S-O captures all of the test printing
2017-09-23T20:30:12Z stylewarning: Why that matters I’m not sure
2017-09-23T20:30:30Z stylewarning: Maybe for just sane logging and the like
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2017-09-23T20:31:51Z stylewarning: I propose just defaulting the stream to a (L-T-V *S-O*)
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2017-09-23T20:50:32Z PuercoPop: stylewarning: I'm under the impression that this bind to the eval *standard-output* was done by atilia to mimick what make-synonym stream accomplishes
2017-09-23T20:50:34Z PuercoPop: I gtg now
2017-09-23T20:50:38Z PuercoPop: I'll send a full path later
2017-09-23T20:50:41Z PuercoPop: patc
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2017-09-23T21:19:39Z Josh_2: iqubic: no reason for TGA other than the C++ code I'm porting uses it
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2017-09-23T22:28:45Z whoman: i used tga in my c/c++ code, it was one of the nicer options
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2017-09-24T02:51:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-24T04:55:32Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2017-09-24T04:59:31Z iqubic: How are you today beach?
2017-09-24T04:59:47Z beach: iqubic: I am fine thank you.  But how I am is off topic. :)
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2017-09-24T05:04:22Z Guthur: Is there a CL implementation that allows setting processor affinity for a given thread?
2017-09-24T05:04:37Z Guthur: does seem to be available in BT
2017-09-24T05:08:09Z Guthur: s/does/doesn't
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2017-09-24T06:59:44Z mrcom: drmeister: You around? Still having deadlock issues?
2017-09-24T07:00:31Z clintm: I've been rolling around a desire I've had for a CL that runs like Pharo and Squeak.  For instance, by default it's image driven, has a common gui, the code for and state of which is contained in an image, but can also run headless on a server.  Are there any projects alive or dead that have tried to do this?  I'm not looking to write yet another lisp, but rather add to or, worst case, fork from another.
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2017-09-24T07:07:52Z mrcom: minion: memo for drmeister: Deadlocking on GF memoization, invalidating, or using memoized? Are you using lockless structures, or locking in the fast path?
2017-09-24T07:07:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-09-24T07:42:31Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day :D
2017-09-24T07:46:06Z beach: mrcom: drmeister is very likely asleep.  He had some race conditions, so he added some locks, and now he has deadlocks.  I think that there has not been any sufficient consideration of all the possible scenarios that can happen when classes, generic functions, and instances are being updated.  I explain the lock-free data structure I am planning to use to update the call history in SICL, and he thought that was a good idea for Clasp as
2017-09-24T07:46:06Z beach: well.
2017-09-24T07:47:32Z beach: I explained it, even.
2017-09-24T07:47:58Z mrcom: Yeah, sounds pretty gnarly. So it's deadlocking on invalidation or memoization.
2017-09-24T07:48:15Z beach: mrcom: I am not sure drmeister knows.
2017-09-24T07:48:46Z beach: mrcom: Also, things are more complex than just invalidation and memoization.
2017-09-24T07:49:43Z mrcom: beach: "Compiling" sounds like a scary thing to do inside a lock.
2017-09-24T07:49:44Z beach: mrcom: The discriminating function must be computed from the call history essentially without using any generic functions.  The call history can not simply be invalidated, because that would create metastability problems for specified generic functions.
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2017-09-24T07:50:58Z beach: The only compilation that should be done in most situations is to create the discriminating function from the call history.
2017-09-24T07:51:24Z beach: As I recall, drmeister has a special compiler for that case.
2017-09-24T07:52:59Z beach: In SICL, I instead plan to have a working compiler in a separate environment so that there is no attempt to use the same compiler to create discriminating functions as the one that is being modified.
2017-09-24T07:53:52Z beach: Even adding a method should not require the compiler.  The method function should be compiled outside any locks.
2017-09-24T07:54:33Z beach: But, again, I don't think there has been sufficient effort to imagine every possible scenario and how each one should be handled.
2017-09-24T07:54:43Z mrcom: You're still going to need to lock stuff, aren't you? e.g., avoiding simultaneous changes to structs.
2017-09-24T07:54:53Z mrcom: Guess that's required anyway...
2017-09-24T07:56:05Z beach: Like I explained to drmeister, there are two possible results of synchronization problems.  1. It violates the integrity of the system, and 2. It just gives the "wrong" result.
2017-09-24T07:56:14Z beach: In my opinion, 1 needs to be avoided.
2017-09-24T07:56:35Z beach: Number 2 can not always be avoided because it has to do with the kind of code that the application writer wrote.
2017-09-24T07:57:05Z beach: So for 2, one has to think hard about what is acceptable to the application writer, and what the system can handle.
2017-09-24T07:57:15Z mrcom: "Wrong" as in stale but consistent?
2017-09-24T07:57:44Z beach: I am guessing that it will depend on the scenario, and what you consider acceptable.
2017-09-24T07:58:09Z beach: I mean, even "consistent" is not well defined.
2017-09-24T07:58:35Z beach: I vividly recall a discussion with stassats about such a situation.
2017-09-24T07:59:58Z beach: In SICL, I plan to cache the result of looking up the value of a special variable in the case where there is no tight loop and no call to an external function.  It is "consistent" in that there is no experiment that the application programmer can conduct to determine whether the thread was just very fast.
2017-09-24T08:00:14Z beach: Despite that, stassats totally rejected this idea of mine.
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2017-09-24T08:01:12Z mrcom: Why?
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2017-09-24T08:02:33Z mrcom: Why did he disagree, that is.
2017-09-24T08:03:13Z mrcom: The processor is going to do that, anyway.
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2017-09-24T08:03:31Z beach: I don't know.  It was just wrong to him.  The special variable should be accessed every time because that's what the semantics dictate.
2017-09-24T08:04:19Z beach: I don't think the processor can do that.
2017-09-24T08:04:24Z mrcom: Cache.
2017-09-24T08:04:52Z beach: Well, maybe it can if the value is global.
2017-09-24T08:05:45Z mrcom: Might even if it's on the stack, using anonymous registers in the underlying physical engine.
2017-09-24T08:05:57Z beach: Yeah, maybe so.
2017-09-24T08:06:37Z beach: Anyway, I think drmeister has some work to do.  And it is not as simple as invalidate or memoize.
2017-09-24T08:07:02Z beach: From #clasp: Here is an interesting scenario: Suppose some class C is updated. Now, all existing instances of C are obsolete.  Suppose that two different threads T1 and T2 use the same obsolete instance (say O) as arguments to perhaps two different generic functions F1 and F2 respectively.  Is it possible that the discriminating function of F1 has been updated, but that of F2 has not?
2017-09-24T08:07:07Z mrcom muses about SQL consistency levels, JVM memory model, and CL.
2017-09-24T08:07:18Z beach: If so, the following could happen: T2 runs the discriminating function, and the result is an accessor that goes directly to some slot, but then T2 is delayed, and T1 executes.  The discriminating function of F1 fails, so T1 detects that O is obsolete.  It now alters the contents of the slots of O. Now, T2 executes again and accesses the wrong slot of O, perhaps even outside of O.
2017-09-24T08:10:38Z mrcom: The simple, provable correct way might be to globally invalidate all GFs whenever any class changes, and put a global lock around compilation of any DF. How often do classes change?
2017-09-24T08:13:44Z Fare: beach: hi
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2017-09-24T08:19:34Z beach: Hello Fare.
2017-09-24T08:19:55Z beach: mrcom: That won't work.
2017-09-24T08:20:33Z mrcom: How come?
2017-09-24T08:20:34Z beach: mrcom: Look in the AMOP book.  It will create metastability problems for specified generic functions.
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2017-09-24T08:20:47Z mrcom: OK, thx, I'll do that.
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2017-09-24T08:21:12Z beach: That is why you have to distinguish between different degrees of invalidation.
2017-09-24T08:21:46Z beach: For example, if you remove from the cache entries on specified generic functions that specialize to specified classes, then you will never recover.
2017-09-24T08:22:12Z beach: Because there are so many specified generic functions that still need to work for specified classes in order to recover.
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2017-09-24T08:23:04Z Fare: A tale of many nests https://fare.livejournal.com/189741.html  My favorite small macro, macro modularity, and defining macros, in Common Lisp and in Scheme
2017-09-24T08:24:32Z Fare: beach: at some point, I'll want to pick your brain as to how best to add CLOS to Gerbil.
2017-09-24T08:25:14Z Fare: (as well as any other essential CL features that you'd miss in a Scheme dialect)
2017-09-24T08:26:05Z beach: Sure.  Today is bad, though.  I have lunch guests coming in 30 minutes and I still have cooking to do.
2017-09-24T08:26:54Z Fare: when is a good day?
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2017-09-24T08:27:50Z beach: Thursday and Friday are empty so far.
2017-09-24T08:27:58Z beach: This coming week, that is.
2017-09-24T08:28:04Z Fare: which is best for you?
2017-09-24T08:28:09Z Fare: let's say thursday?
2017-09-24T08:28:12Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-24T08:28:15Z beach: What time?
2017-09-24T08:29:22Z beach: Are you still in UTC-4?
2017-09-24T08:29:23Z Fare: what time is good for you?
2017-09-24T08:29:25Z Fare: yes
2017-09-24T08:29:33Z Fare: NYC
2017-09-24T08:29:42Z beach: What time do you get up?
2017-09-24T08:29:54Z Fare: with the kids, before 8am usually
2017-09-24T08:30:02Z Fare: especially week days.
2017-09-24T08:30:13Z beach: OK, how about around 9 your time, 15:00 here?
2017-09-24T08:32:05Z beach: Fare: ?
2017-09-24T08:32:09Z Fare: should work!
2017-09-24T08:32:13Z Fare: google hangouts?
2017-09-24T08:32:35Z beach: Oh, you want to do video and stuff?
2017-09-24T08:33:01Z Fare: not necessarily video, but voice has better bandwidth than merely text
2017-09-24T08:33:13Z beach: Hmm.  Might not work.
2017-09-24T08:33:31Z Fare: or meet.jit.si
2017-09-24T08:33:36Z beach: I will be working at home and I don't want to disturb my wife.
2017-09-24T08:33:49Z Fare: ok, then just IRC, then.
2017-09-24T08:33:57Z beach: Let's start with that.
2017-09-24T08:34:38Z Fare: ok. Thanks.
2017-09-24T08:34:46Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-24T08:34:47Z Fare: meet here on IRC #lisp
2017-09-24T08:34:52Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-24T08:35:04Z beach: OK, now I need to run.  Talk later.
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2017-09-24T11:16:04Z oleo: sup sup
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2017-09-24T13:19:08Z phoe_: Should the function/variable docstring always be aligned to 80 chars width?
2017-09-24T13:19:47Z phoe_: Or should I use #.(format nil "something that uses ~#\Newline to create non-broken strings") ?
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2017-09-24T13:38:55Z Fare: phoe: 100 chars is the new 80 chars
2017-09-24T13:41:43Z oleo: isn't there a variable width format option ?
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2017-09-24T14:10:41Z Fare: oleo: question is, what value at source-write-time ?
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2017-09-24T15:39:38Z nachoba: Did someone manage to install stumpwm in Windows using Xming and the Ubuntu Bash?
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2017-09-24T15:42:54Z nachoba: Sorry wrong channel! ;)
2017-09-24T15:43:48Z whoman: hehe! i dont know about ubuntu bash, but i had emacs and xming and windows 8.1 working quite well together on my tablet. fwiw
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2017-09-24T16:53:06Z dim: http://mobaxterm.mobatek.net might be helpful too for windows users wanted linux apps and an X server
2017-09-24T16:55:16Z iqubic: Why is that a thing?
2017-09-24T16:56:15Z dim: all I know is that some people use windows and mobaxterm exists
2017-09-24T16:57:46Z iqubic: So it's like reverse wine?
2017-09-24T16:58:34Z iqubic: Where wine is windows emulation on linux
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2017-09-24T17:12:23Z nachoba: It's not emulation it's just a windows terminal with SSH support and an integrated X Server....
2017-09-24T17:12:42Z nachoba: It would allow you to run X apps but not stumpwm
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2017-09-24T17:13:05Z iqubic: Why not stumpwm?
2017-09-24T17:14:15Z nachoba: Because stumpwm will be in the guest machine and not in the Win machine....that's the way the X Server works
2017-09-24T17:14:31Z nachoba: X Server is on the Win Machine....clients in the Guest
2017-09-24T17:14:34Z iqubic: Oh, right. I forgot that this was an ssh client.
2017-09-24T17:14:42Z iqubic: Right, I see.
2017-09-24T17:15:07Z iqubic: Stumpwm is just piece of software that tells the client where to put the windows.
2017-09-24T17:15:17Z nachoba: yep
2017-09-24T17:15:20Z nachoba: a window manager
2017-09-24T17:15:26Z iqubic: It the server that decided what goes on the windows though.
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2017-09-24T17:23:22Z whoman: i sidegraded from stumpwm to exw
2017-09-24T17:23:24Z whoman: m
2017-09-24T17:24:13Z Josh_2: I've never heard of EXWM but now I am curious
2017-09-24T17:25:46Z whoman: its awesome !!
2017-09-24T17:25:54Z whoman: if you are an emacs user, that is
2017-09-24T17:26:32Z Josh_2: I am, I'd assume most people who write lisp are.
2017-09-24T17:27:40Z whoman: true - i didnt want to assume =)
2017-09-24T17:28:08Z whoman: stumpwm is really great, being CL and swankable and such, but it was still a layer much too far from what i was mostly doing
2017-09-24T17:28:39Z whoman: exwm is a bit of magic to me. it keeps X11 frames in the emacs windows perfectly. so that, "x11 apps" are just emacs buffers.
2017-09-24T17:28:42Z Josh_2: I've tried StumpWM but never got along with it, I'm not a fan of the keybindings and didn't particularly care enough to modify it all.
2017-09-24T17:29:20Z whoman: i started to get custom with stump, but it would have been too much effort to be something too unique and mutated from the norm - i dont want to exile myself =)
2017-09-24T17:29:56Z whoman: exwm is basically perfect. install from melpa, set up xinit/lgdm/xsession, then trust in emacs.
2017-09-24T17:32:25Z Josh_2: I think I'll try it out
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2017-09-24T17:50:19Z Fare: I like stumpwm, but there are quirks I don't understand.
2017-09-24T17:50:58Z Fare: When I change screen orientation, the current window becomes in a weird state, no longer displayed but still current.
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2017-09-24T17:55:51Z Josh_2: Trying to explain why you don't like C++ to someone who programs in C++ for a living is hard
2017-09-24T17:57:49Z whoman: "not my cup of tea"
2017-09-24T17:58:04Z stylewarning: They might tell you that they have exquisite control over memory layout and memory copying operations, and that that Lisp junk gives you none of that
2017-09-24T17:58:10Z whoman: same way you tell your friend that you arent interested in his girlfriend but she keeps eyeing you
2017-09-24T17:59:23Z whoman: eh theres enough languages, we could each have 5 to our selves
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2017-09-24T18:09:42Z Josh_2: whoman: "not my cup of tea" pretty much summed up my answer.
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2017-09-24T18:10:16Z Josh_2: stylewarning: someone made a reference to something similar, my response was that most languages do it for you.
2017-09-24T18:10:51Z stylewarning: The property of “giving you control” isn’t something that can be done “for you”
2017-09-24T18:11:54Z Josh_2: That's not what I meant
2017-09-24T18:12:09Z stylewarning: The real answer is “some languages don’t allow you to peek at that level of abstraction, namely the representation and placement of objects in memory”
2017-09-24T18:15:41Z whoman: lol, thanks stylewarning ! your last two sentences, very appropriate for another current conversation about english-type contextual human language. thank you
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2017-09-24T19:40:26Z nachoba: @whoman exwm seems really interesting. I will try it out...
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2017-09-24T21:03:34Z phoe_: gah, I wish I knew enough double backquote to zip this up http://paste.lisp.org/display/356775
2017-09-24T21:04:13Z phoe_: in a similar way https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/lists.lisp#L29 is done
2017-09-24T21:04:24Z phoe_: except I have macros here, so it does smell of double backquote for me.
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2017-09-24T21:05:46Z stylewarning: phoe_ just make it a function
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2017-09-24T21:11:52Z Bike: yeah i don't see why that would be a macro?
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2017-09-24T21:29:35Z _death: or you could abstract the pattern so you have (must-exist (assoc-value ...))
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2017-09-24T21:41:11Z jasom: is it possible for a previously lexically bound variable to become unbound?
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2017-09-24T21:42:56Z _death: what does it mean for such a variable to be unbound
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2017-09-24T21:43:10Z jasom: _death: I get an unbound variable error trying to access it
2017-09-24T21:43:25Z jasom: I think this is a foreign function trashing my stack
2017-09-24T21:45:03Z jasom: yup, trying to print a stack backtrace causes a bus error
2017-09-24T21:45:37Z _death: ouch
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2017-09-24T21:53:13Z stylewarning: jasom if you learn any tricks for debugging code like this lmk
2017-09-24T21:53:23Z Fare: jasom: in python, it is
2017-09-24T21:53:46Z stylewarning: I didn’t have good advice for folks who asked me except “it’s probably possible to figure out LDB or GDB but idk”
2017-09-24T21:53:55Z Fare: trick: do not use C code.
2017-09-24T21:54:10Z stylewarning: Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do :(
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2017-09-24T22:15:26Z jasom: stylewarning: no turns out it was a user-headspace error
2017-09-24T22:15:57Z jasom refactored out some code into a different package, but neglected to export one symbol
2017-09-24T22:16:19Z jasom: so foo:bar was defined, but different from bar
2017-09-24T22:16:46Z jasom is surprised asdf doesn't fail when warnings happen compiling
2017-09-24T22:16:58Z phoe_: Bike: I want to capture the variable name into an error message.
2017-09-24T22:17:35Z phoe_: So a function doesn't make it for me since the symbol will get evaluated and I lose the name.
2017-09-24T22:18:13Z jasom: easist way to ensure a list is no more than N elements? (e.g. (first-n 3 '(a b)) => (a b) (first-n 3 '(a b c d)) => (a b c))
2017-09-24T22:18:21Z phoe_: minion: memo for Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356788 <- What do you think of this? It's surprisingly small.
2017-09-24T22:18:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-24T22:18:23Z jasom: I couldn't find anything baked in in alexandria or the standard library
2017-09-24T22:18:28Z phoe_: jasom: robust-subseq
2017-09-24T22:18:32Z phoe_: one moment, _death posted it one day
2017-09-24T22:18:57Z phoe_: https://github.com/death/gnusdumps/blob/5ad0fda58cc830709179b50347144a1da854d02a/driver/main.lisp#L92
2017-09-24T22:19:16Z phoe_: (robust-subseq list 0 3)
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2017-09-24T22:21:24Z Bike: variable name? you mean the alist?
2017-09-24T22:21:41Z Bike: no other function does anything like that, you should be able to work it out from a backtrace
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2017-09-24T22:22:12Z phoe_: Bike: actually, you're right.
2017-09-24T22:22:17Z jasom: phoe_: that needs to go in a utility library somewhere :)
2017-09-24T22:22:25Z phoe_: jasom: go poke _death, it's his library
2017-09-24T22:22:35Z jasom: I just didn't want to write one if I was missing something widely available
2017-09-24T22:22:39Z phoe_: :P
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2017-09-24T22:26:54Z stylewarning: Every time I see loop symbols that aren’t keywords I begin to hurl
2017-09-24T22:27:13Z jasom: stylewarning: don't read any of my code then
2017-09-24T22:27:34Z stylewarning: WE GOT A DEAL
2017-09-24T22:28:17Z stylewarning: My argument is that if you’re printing the code outside of its native home the loops are full of prefixed symbol garbage
2017-09-24T22:29:30Z stylewarning: MY-PACKAGE::FOR MY-PACKAGE::I MY-PACKAGE:FROM (one colon because FROM is a function I’ve exported) 1 MY-PACKAGE::TO 10
2017-09-24T22:29:38Z stylewarning: gives me the heebie jeebies
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2017-09-24T22:34:09Z phoe_: (:import-from #:cl #:for #:from #:to #:below #:upto ...)
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2017-09-24T22:40:18Z stylewarning: Seeing that code is a perfect way to get me spooked.
2017-09-24T22:47:21Z PuercoPop: I do to, as well when package designators are not un-interned symbols. But it I tell myself it is my OCD kicking in
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2017-09-24T22:54:27Z aeth: PuercoPop: Write a style guide!
2017-09-24T22:55:36Z aeth: PuercoPop: All CL has is the Google Style Guide (formerly from ITA Software) and a bunch of slides from (iirc) Norvig and the general guide to "just use the default formatting Emacs gives you" (even the Google Style Guide says something like this)
2017-09-24T22:56:53Z aeth: s/the general guide/the general advice/
2017-09-24T22:57:03Z p_l uses keyword symbols in loop because it looks nicer in Emacs
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2017-09-24T23:16:30Z jmercouris: I need to do some logic before I can populate the slots of my class, how can I make a "constructor"?
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2017-09-24T23:17:34Z jmercouris: actually, nvm, I found a different way
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2017-09-24T23:21:44Z PuercoPop: aeth: Speaking of Norvig's style guide, another pet peeve is when people don't use upper case for format directives
2017-09-24T23:22:00Z aeth: PuercoPop: People complain when I use uper case in format.
2017-09-24T23:22:06Z aeth: I will always use upper case in format.
2017-09-24T23:22:34Z p_l: https://twitter.com/les_ja/status/911941166790307842 <--- lisp on a mosaic (3rd photo)
2017-09-24T23:23:47Z aeth: jmercouris: Two ways, iirc. initialize-instance and defining your own make-foo that returns the result of a (make-instance 'foo) with everything setup
2017-09-24T23:24:07Z PuercoPop: aeth: really? I've never seen pushback against uppercase in format directives
2017-09-24T23:26:23Z jmercouris: aeth: aha okay, good to know
2017-09-24T23:26:25Z PuercoPop: onecould also defer initialization until first use with an around method on the accessor
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2017-09-24T23:28:32Z aeth: jmercouris: I prefer make-foo because it abstracts more (e.g. it doesn't have to be a CLOS object, it could be an array or something), but I think defining an initialize-instance is more common. You could probably provide both, too.
2017-09-24T23:29:10Z aeth: PCL uses the latter. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html
2017-09-24T23:31:38Z aeth: If you do both, make-foo would just return (make-instance 'foo) with the optional keyword arguments passed to the constructor and could probably be inlined with no issues.
2017-09-24T23:31:39Z jmercouris: aeth: I think I'll stick to emacs naming conventions
2017-09-24T23:32:14Z jmercouris: basically I am making constructors for major mode objects, so I don't want to make it too hard for emacs users to figure out
2017-09-24T23:32:25Z jmercouris: thank you for your advice though
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2017-09-24T23:35:28Z Fare: I'm starting a section of my thesis on robustness, and I realize I'm totally lacking in bibliography on how to properly think about robustness.
2017-09-24T23:35:50Z Fare: I believe I have the essential concepts, but this is not the place to write a treatise on it.
2017-09-24T23:40:32Z Fare: jmercouris, did you read my article on interface-passing style? It offers some insight on constructors.
2017-09-24T23:41:15Z jmercouris: Fare: I haven't read it, do you have a link?
2017-09-24T23:46:25Z phoe_: How can I readably print a hash table while preserving object identity with #1= #1# notation?
2017-09-24T23:47:23Z phoe_: I have a hash table where keys are list in form (symbol string) and values are vectors of uint8s. Multiple keys can point to one value, as in, for two different keys, the values can be EQ.
2017-09-24T23:47:46Z Bike: print it (in whatever way) with print-circle on?
2017-09-24T23:49:18Z jmercouris: is there a way to inspect all defvars set?
2017-09-24T23:50:06Z phoe_: Bike: hm. I'll try it, sounds tempting.
2017-09-24T23:51:31Z Bike: jmercouris: if they're all named by interned symbols you could, but it's a weird thing to do.
2017-09-24T23:51:44Z jmercouris: Bike: I'm trying to make it so that users can inspect all variables like in emacs
2017-09-24T23:51:58Z jmercouris: Bike: this is obviously for the browser, I want it to have that same discoverability of what all confiigurable parameters are
2017-09-24T23:52:16Z jmercouris: Bike: what does it mean for a symbol to be interned?
2017-09-24T23:52:26Z Bike: part of a package.
2017-09-24T23:52:44Z jmercouris: okay I see
2017-09-24T23:52:53Z Bike: it's pretty unnatural to have a defvar named by an uninterned symbol, i just tend to name caveats
2017-09-24T23:53:00Z jmercouris: can you please point me to a snippet, which kind of commands would I use?
2017-09-24T23:53:34Z jmercouris: Bike: I think it's good to be precise when talking about software
2017-09-24T23:53:38Z Bike: clhs do-all-symbols
2017-09-24T23:53:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm
2017-09-24T23:53:44Z Bike: clhs symbol-value
2017-09-24T23:53:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm
2017-09-24T23:54:02Z jmercouris: Bike: aha, very cool, thx!
2017-09-24T23:54:13Z Bike: er, rather than symbol-value you'd use boundp.
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2017-09-24T23:54:33Z Bike: that doesn't actually tell you whether the variable is special, as in declared by defvar, but the difference should be mainly academic.
2017-09-24T23:55:30Z jmercouris: Bike: I'm not strictly interested if by defvar, I just want to be able to have a user query vars and show their resultant docstrings
2017-09-24T23:55:51Z jmercouris: Bike: speaking of which, could you please tell me what the correct way to docstring a function is?
2017-09-24T23:56:04Z jmercouris: I've looked at so many different ways to do it, and documentation generators, and I'm really not sure what's right
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2017-09-24T23:58:37Z phoe_: Bike: works, thank you. http://paste.lisp.org/display/356794
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2017-09-24T23:59:32Z Bicyclidine: i don't know what "to docstring" means.
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2017-09-25T00:00:23Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: to comment a function args, purpose, etc
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2017-09-25T00:00:57Z jmercouris: usually there is a standardized way to do it
2017-09-25T00:01:19Z Bicyclidine: i usually just write an explanation of what i think is relevant. i don't use doxygen type tools.
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2017-09-25T00:06:01Z didi: In LOOP, can I bind (values ...) values as I can destructure lists? Something like (loop for (values a b) = (truncate 42 7) ...)
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2017-09-25T00:09:14Z Bicyclidine: Unfortunately no.
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2017-09-25T00:09:24Z didi: Bicyclidine: I see. Thanks.
2017-09-25T00:09:27Z Bicyclidine: You can do (a b) = (multiple-value-list (truncate ...)) if you don't mind the performance hit.
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2017-09-25T00:12:37Z jmercouris: anoyone have any experience with purl?
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2017-09-25T00:24:58Z jmercouris: nvm, ended up using puri
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2017-09-25T00:52:28Z phoe_: Why does DEFTYPE accept an arbitrary number of forms?
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2017-09-25T00:52:47Z phoe_: I mean, uh, I know that it does. Just, is there an actual use case for it?
2017-09-25T00:54:32Z Bicyclidine: ...accept? what?
2017-09-25T00:54:41Z Bicyclidine: you mean for the expander?
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2017-09-25T01:04:01Z phoe_: (deftype random-type () (print "foo") (print "bar") '(or symbol string))
2017-09-25T01:04:26Z Bicyclidine: same reason macroexpander functions can.
2017-09-25T01:04:59Z phoe_: Yes, except in macroexpanders' case, I can think of how one can use these side effects to achieve something.
2017-09-25T01:05:14Z phoe_: Where types... I can't see such a use case yet.
2017-09-25T01:05:46Z phoe_: For macros, it's compilation-time / macroexpansion-time computation. For types... hum.
2017-09-25T01:06:15Z Bicyclidine: still compilation time usually.
2017-09-25T01:06:27Z Bicyclidine: but it's mostly a regularity thing probably.
2017-09-25T01:06:29Z Bicyclidine: "why not"
2017-09-25T01:06:37Z phoe_: actually
2017-09-25T01:06:40Z phoe_: when I evaluate the above
2017-09-25T01:06:47Z phoe_: the prints don't happen instantly.
2017-09-25T01:06:59Z Bicyclidine: "instantly"? like when you run the deftype?
2017-09-25T01:07:03Z phoe_: they happen probably when the type is actually computed or something.
2017-09-25T01:07:08Z phoe_: yes.
2017-09-25T01:07:12Z Bicyclidine: why would they...
2017-09-25T01:07:27Z phoe_: They wouldn't, it's normal.
2017-09-25T01:07:38Z Bicyclidine: the obvious expansion of (defmacro name ll ...body) is (setf (macro-function 'name) (lambda (form env) (destructure ll form env ...body)))
2017-09-25T01:07:41Z phoe_: I just find it fun that the moment I start typing "(foo" into the REPL, boom, they're printed.
2017-09-25T01:07:57Z Bicyclidine: so, lambda or destructure or whatever takes a body, so why wouldn't defmacro
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2017-09-25T01:29:38Z z3t0: hi
2017-09-25T01:31:09Z z3t0: what are some good beginner resources on lisp that aren't too heavy?
2017-09-25T01:31:27Z z3t0: I am half way through practical common lisp and am looking for some supplementary material as well
2017-09-25T01:33:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-25T01:34:08Z beach: z3t0: Do you consider PCL too "heavy"?
2017-09-25T01:34:19Z z3t0: beach: not at all
2017-09-25T01:34:25Z z3t0: Just looking for other resources to read along side it
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2017-09-25T01:34:47Z z3t0: I don't really have a lot of free time as a first year engineering student so it's slow going through PCL
2017-09-25T01:34:47Z beach: z3t0: You could try ANSI Common Lisp by Paul Graham then.
2017-09-25T01:34:56Z z3t0: Im looking at onlisp by the same author
2017-09-25T01:35:05Z z3t0: though thats also 400+ pages
2017-09-25T01:35:12Z beach: OnLisp is more advanced though.
2017-09-25T01:35:14Z z3t0: I see
2017-09-25T01:35:19Z z3t0: Okay I'll try and find the other one
2017-09-25T01:35:24Z beach: Not for beginners.
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2017-09-25T01:38:51Z PuercoPop: I'm trying to figure out the correct way to message the values returned from alexandria:parse-ordinary-lambda-list to match a call to apply. I know it is bad style, but what would be the correct way to handle optional and keyword arguments being mixed?
2017-09-25T01:44:22Z beach: PuercoPop: What does it mean to "message" something?  And what does it mean to "match a call" to a function?
2017-09-25T01:44:33Z PuercoPop: I meant massage
2017-09-25T01:44:43Z beach: Ah.
2017-09-25T01:44:52Z Bicyclidine: er, what does parse ordinary lambda list have to do with apply
2017-09-25T01:44:59Z Bicyclidine: lambda list is parameters, not arguments, i mean.
2017-09-25T01:45:13Z PuercoPop: Basically I fiasco, a test framework, has this code (apply (name-of (test-of (context-of failure))) (actual-test-arguments-of (context-of failure)))
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2017-09-25T01:45:42Z PuercoPop: with its own parse-lambda-list, which uses a visitor pattern, to get the text arguments of
2017-09-25T01:46:03Z PuercoPop: and I'm seeing how to replace its own parse-lambda-list with alexandria's version
2017-09-25T01:46:30Z PuercoPop: (the code is used to re-run failed tests)
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2017-09-25T13:35:34Z Xach: So gitlab @ common-lisp.net is down right now, and I'm not sure to whom I can report this.
2017-09-25T13:35:35Z minion: Xach, memo from phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356788 <- What do you think of this? It's surprisingly small.
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2017-09-25T13:37:58Z lacedaemon: Xach: #common-lisp.net
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2017-09-25T13:40:28Z dlowe: woah, woah, WOAH.  Periods in channel names?
2017-09-25T13:42:04Z Shinmera: dlowe: Channel names can have any ASCII character except space, bell, nul, cr, lf, or the comma in it.
2017-09-25T13:42:20Z Shinmera: At least if anyone actually followed the RFCs.
2017-09-25T13:42:46Z dlowe: yeah, I know the spec.
2017-09-25T13:43:30Z dlowe: I'm surprised we don't see a lot more domain names as channels.
2017-09-25T13:43:49Z Shinmera: Shorter names usually win over fancy characters, I guess.
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2017-09-25T14:40:41Z _death: 20 years ago people played jokes on irc newbies telling them to join #2,000 or somesuch, and upon trying, their irc client (mIRC) would part the current channel
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2017-09-25T14:41:28Z dlowe: that's an odd failure mode
2017-09-25T14:43:38Z _death: maybe it was kept so the joke could keep going ;)
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2017-09-25T14:46:52Z Xach: so many pranks
2017-09-25T14:46:58Z fouric: it should have been #9,001 imo
2017-09-25T14:47:48Z fouric: (i agree, that's a weird way to react when asked to join a nonexistent channel)
2017-09-25T14:48:02Z pjb:  /join #9,#001
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2017-09-25T14:54:11Z _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356837
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2017-09-25T14:59:55Z jdz: Not sure what one would expect in a channel called #cracking4newbies...
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2017-09-25T15:01:43Z _death: jdz: it used to be the go-to place for people interesting in reverse engineering :)
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2017-09-25T17:03:19Z oleo: hmm
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2017-09-25T17:07:46Z dlowe: Implementing "defer" from the Go language: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356846
2017-09-25T17:07:59Z dlowe: random thought that crossed my mind.
2017-09-25T17:08:31Z takitus: defer: Because functions need lots of hidden state :)
2017-09-25T17:09:05Z dlowe: if the hidden state in defer bothers you, you should make smaller functions.
2017-09-25T17:09:58Z dlowe: Anyway, it sure beats objects with destructors.
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2017-09-25T17:20:03Z takitus: defer is one of Go's weirder ideas. The authors present it as a better solution to the 'goto cleanup' trick common in C functions, but building a stack of statements to execute when a function returns (somewhere) seems very abuseable.
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2017-09-25T17:21:27Z takitus: It's a very imperative solution to a very imperative problem :)
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2017-09-25T17:28:59Z dim: dlowe: we have unwind-protect
2017-09-25T17:29:06Z dim: and we hide it in with- macros...
2017-09-25T17:29:12Z dim: defer isn't that bad
2017-09-25T17:29:44Z dim: I prefer with- macros using unwind-protect, that said, of course
2017-09-25T17:30:33Z dlowe: dim: if you had looked at it, you would have seen an unwind-protect form.
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2017-09-25T17:32:08Z dim: I suppose I would ;-)
2017-09-25T17:32:35Z dlowe: takitus: the advantage it has over "goto cleanup" is that defers can be conditionally added
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2017-09-25T17:32:53Z dlowe: whereas in a cleanup code section, you have to check for conditions to clean up on
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2017-09-25T17:33:34Z _death: it reminds me of my old scopeguard-inspired implementation
2017-09-25T17:33:45Z dim: ah yes I like your with-defer macro, in so much as it shows why I'm tired of languages with a syntax...
2017-09-25T17:34:53Z dlowe: Yes, that with-* macro syntax is so bothersome.
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2017-09-25T17:35:51Z borodust: o/
2017-09-25T17:36:03Z borodust: woops, sorry, but hello anyway
2017-09-25T17:36:14Z dlowe: The advantage of lisp is you get to have any syntax you want, without having to wait for some faraway language implementor to add it.
2017-09-25T17:36:27Z dlowe: s/The /One of the many/
2017-09-25T17:38:35Z takitus: dlowe: It's certainly better than those C idioms. defer still seems a bit dirty.
2017-09-25T17:39:35Z dim: dlowe: I meant the other way round, if you want with-defer in Go you have to wait until the language designers make it happen, or in Java, or etc... whereas you could just make it happen
2017-09-25T17:40:01Z dim: ah and that's exactly what you said, after the "bothersome" line
2017-09-25T17:40:08Z dim: mpf, anyway
2017-09-25T17:40:09Z dlowe: dim: GMTA
2017-09-25T17:40:15Z dim: ?
2017-09-25T17:40:24Z dlowe: great minds think alike
2017-09-25T17:40:26Z dim: hehe
2017-09-25T17:40:40Z dlowe: or GMDRTBS - Great minds don't read the back scroll
2017-09-25T17:40:45Z dlowe: one of those
2017-09-25T17:41:02Z dim: one of those, certainly
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2017-09-25T17:47:23Z dlowe: speaking of macros, Fare's latest blog entry is pretty neat: https://fare.livejournal.com/189741.html
2017-09-25T17:50:27Z dim: I've been using bind in places and I like it better: I like indentation and as he suggests I think needing more of it is a mistake in the code
2017-09-25T17:50:46Z dim: I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Faré prefers complex code
2017-09-25T17:50:51Z dim: I prefer simple code ;-)
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2017-09-25T17:53:56Z didi: I've been using :test-not lately. Feels wrong, but also handy.
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2017-09-25T17:54:53Z Xach: uint: hey, why did you delete your telnet server?
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2017-09-25T17:55:36Z _death: yes, nest is a crutch like chain (or "->" as some like to call it) is a crutch.. the latter may make sense in rare cases
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2017-09-25T18:07:04Z takitus: dim: That was my thought on reading that as well. To paraphrase Linus Torvalds, if you need that much indentation you're screwed anyway.
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2017-09-25T18:20:38Z oleo: lol
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2017-09-25T18:30:16Z didi: Eer, I bet everyone knows this, but did you know you can use NIL to discard bindings on `destructuring-bind'? Cool.
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2017-09-25T18:33:02Z shrdlu68: didi: Nice, used to declare ignorable.
2017-09-25T18:33:21Z didi: shrdlu68: Right? Me too.
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2017-09-25T18:42:26Z Xach: didi: no, you can't.
2017-09-25T18:42:41Z Xach: didi: that it works in SBCL is a bug.
2017-09-25T18:42:50Z Xach: didi: only in LOOP does destructuring to NIL ignore something.
2017-09-25T18:43:00Z Xach: this came up last week or maybe the week before
2017-09-25T18:43:21Z didi: Xach: Oh noes.
2017-09-25T18:43:35Z didi: Xach: But it is handy!
2017-09-25T18:43:46Z dim: use metabang-bind then
2017-09-25T18:43:52Z didi: wat
2017-09-25T18:43:56Z Xach: or rg's BB!!!
2017-09-25T18:43:59Z dim: it supports nil and _ for ignoring values
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2017-09-25T18:44:13Z dim: and does it for multiple-value-bind and destructuring-bind and others
2017-09-25T18:44:45Z dim: How can I have the equivalent of (ccl:make-external-format :character-encoding :ascii :line-termination :crlf) in SBCL?
2017-09-25T18:44:51Z didi: Oh well, better have our hopes and dreams shattered sooner rather than later, I guess.
2017-09-25T18:45:38Z Shinmera: dim: You don't
2017-09-25T18:46:10Z Shinmera: Which is to say, you read char by char and do the line conversion yourself.
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2017-09-25T18:46:32Z Xach: Or you could use read-line and trim
2017-09-25T18:46:48Z didi: I found `metabang-bind', but didn't find `BB!!!'.
2017-09-25T18:46:59Z dim: or I “chomp” #\Newline of?
2017-09-25T18:47:02Z Xach: didi: the !!! means sarcasm here
2017-09-25T18:47:08Z Shinmera: just read-line will catch bad lines
2017-09-25T18:47:09Z didi: Xach: oic
2017-09-25T18:47:10Z dim: I think it was called chomp in perl?
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2017-09-25T18:47:32Z didi: Xach: So is it called `BB'?
2017-09-25T18:47:32Z Xach: didi: erann gat's BB macro is like if LOOP was turned into a binding/nesting construct
2017-09-25T18:47:38Z Shinmera: as in, if you have just LF by itself.
2017-09-25T18:47:49Z Xach: it's part of his improvements to CL...can't remember the name of it
2017-09-25T18:47:50Z didi: Xach: Sounds intimidating.
2017-09-25T18:48:06Z didi: oic You are joking with me.
2017-09-25T18:48:09Z Xach: didi: i found code using bb very difficult to read
2017-09-25T18:48:36Z Xach: oh yes, it's ergolib, making common lisp ergonomic
2017-09-25T18:49:05Z Xach: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib/blob/master/core/binding-block.lisp
2017-09-25T18:49:17Z Xach: so it's like metabang-bind meets nest, maybe?
2017-09-25T18:49:39Z didi: Looks like Fare's blogpost nest.
2017-09-25T18:50:12Z Xach: yes
2017-09-25T18:50:14Z dim: so there's metabang-bind and let+ to do things “sanely”?
2017-09-25T18:50:29Z Xach: dim: I find the normal binding constructs sufficient
2017-09-25T18:50:37Z didi: Well, I'm just looking for discarding unused bindings for the moment. :-)
2017-09-25T18:51:21Z didi: Anyway, I have some code to refactor. ;-)
2017-09-25T18:53:51Z dim: (subseq line 0 (+ -1 (length line))) ; am I the only one confused by the - operator enough so to do (+ -1 ...) ?
2017-09-25T18:54:00Z dim: Xach: me too, mostly. in some cases tho...
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2017-09-25T18:56:49Z Shinmera: I sometimes use negative constants if there's more than one element in the addition
2017-09-25T18:56:55Z Shinmera: or the operation, rather.
2017-09-25T18:57:26Z Shinmera: If it's just one, then I would just use the 1- function, though.
2017-09-25T18:58:46Z dim: Xach: what I really don't like is when adding a let and then all the code underneath moves, which means a huge diff instead of a +1 line
2017-09-25T18:59:10Z dim: Shinmera: I keep 1- for mapcar and such
2017-09-25T18:59:16Z dim: dunno why
2017-09-25T18:59:19Z Xach: dim: it would be nice if diff highlighters could be smart about that
2017-09-25T19:01:20Z didi: dim: For lists, if I know I will keep adding things to it, I keep the closing paren by itself.
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2017-09-25T19:17:46Z Fare: Note that I don't claim nest is a macro to use everywhere, just that it's sometimes very useful in circumstances where the alternatives like metabang-bind don't convince me.
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2017-09-25T19:24:02Z didi: Fare: I'm unversed on lisp and scheme macros, but your post got me thinking: man, scheme macros are complex.
2017-09-25T19:24:26Z Fare: well, my post is the worst case for scheme macros
2017-09-25T19:24:45Z Fare: the one-line in CL that turns into extra lines in scheme
2017-09-25T19:25:23Z Fare: the best case would have several layers of gensym boggling your mind.
2017-09-25T19:25:39Z Fare: replaced by trivial hygiene
2017-09-25T19:25:56Z didi: I see.
2017-09-25T19:26:21Z Fare: but yeah, this also illustrates limitations of syntax-rules
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2017-09-25T21:35:32Z shrdlu68: Is there something for copying multi-dimensional arrays in the spec?
2017-09-25T21:35:53Z shrdlu68: copy-seq only takes proper sequences.
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2017-09-25T21:36:30Z stylewarning: shrdlu68: no
2017-09-25T21:36:43Z stylewarning: But it’s simple to write with ROW-MAJOR-AREF
2017-09-25T21:36:58Z _death: there's also alexandria:copy-array
2017-09-25T21:37:18Z stylewarning: Isn’t Alexandria’s function the terrible one?
2017-09-25T21:37:30Z stylewarning: The DISPLACE-ARRAY hack?
2017-09-25T21:37:38Z _death: it uses row-major-aref
2017-09-25T21:38:21Z stylewarning: Ah, maybe that was in the past.
2017-09-25T21:39:19Z shrdlu68: I just discovered row-major-aref.
2017-09-25T21:39:32Z shrdlu68: I have no more need for the monstrosity I had written.
2017-09-25T21:39:50Z stylewarning: Yeah copying an array without it is definitely an exercise
2017-09-25T21:40:08Z _death: an exercise in writing row-major-aref :)
2017-09-25T21:40:15Z stylewarning: Haha
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2017-09-25T21:41:25Z shrdlu68: It's only a two-dimensional one, so a hack with #'floor does it.
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2017-09-25T21:44:17Z stylewarning: What are you copying arrays for shrdlu68
2017-09-25T21:44:42Z shrdlu68: Nothing big, game of life :)
2017-09-25T21:44:47Z _death: (defun elevator (number &rest divisors) (floor number (reduce #'* divisors :initial-value 1)))
2017-09-25T21:45:44Z shrdlu68: The entire game is a two-dimensional bit array.
2017-09-25T21:45:50Z stylewarning: shrdlu68: you should check out my GoL sim
2017-09-25T21:46:11Z shrdlu68: stylewarning: link?
2017-09-25T21:47:08Z stylewarning: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/master/hashlife/
2017-09-25T21:47:24Z stylewarning: Find the quadrillionth generation in the blink of an eye
2017-09-25T21:48:18Z _death: Gosper hack?
2017-09-25T21:48:57Z shrdlu68: stylewarning: I think mine would take some time? How do you do that?
2017-09-25T21:48:58Z stylewarning: U bet
2017-09-25T21:49:09Z shrdlu68: Oh.
2017-09-25T21:49:29Z stylewarning: shrdlu68: the hashlife algorithm from gospers compressing space and time paper
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2017-09-25T21:51:06Z shrdlu68: Mine's so simple, no curses or implementation-specific stuff. and should run in any terminal with primitive support for ANSI control sequences.
2017-09-25T21:52:27Z stylewarning: But curses is easy with CL-CHARMS!
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2017-09-25T21:55:16Z shrdlu68: I know, wanted to make this with as little dependencies as possible, which is none.
2017-09-25T21:56:00Z stylewarning: Get outta that old time Lisper mindset!
2017-09-25T21:56:00Z _death: stylewarning: I too have a snippets directory.. wonder how many programmers do this
2017-09-25T21:56:36Z stylewarning: shrdlu68: rake in all the deps you can get your mitts on! And help fix open source bugs...
2017-09-25T21:56:43Z stylewarning: _death: where at?
2017-09-25T21:56:49Z shrdlu68: It's not a _general_ attitude.
2017-09-25T21:57:02Z _death: stylewarning: not public..
2017-09-25T21:58:15Z didi: So I have a collection of elements that might have some duplicates according to a "samep" function. I want to merge these duplicate elements, by collecting their cdrs into an arbitrary element key. Say I have the collection ((a . resta) ... (b . restb) ...), and (samep a b), I want to merge a and b so the result will be ((a resta restb) ...). Is this a known operation? I am thinking of calling it `merge-duplicates'.
2017-09-25T21:58:28Z _death: stylewarning: some 41kloc by now (first commit in 2008)
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2017-09-25T22:01:44Z stylewarning: _death make it public!
2017-09-25T22:03:13Z stylewarning: didi this is some sort of “group-by” operation
2017-09-25T22:03:26Z didi: stylewarning: Uh, good name.
2017-09-25T22:03:29Z _death: stylewarning: too personal.. I'm guessing stuff on my github is like 10% of my code-at-home
2017-09-25T22:03:34Z drmeister: Does find-class need to be fast?  What if I implemented find-class with an alist - I'm thinking about lockless data structures.
2017-09-25T22:03:36Z stylewarning: didi This isn’t built in to Lisp, but that’s what you want.
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2017-09-25T22:03:43Z didi: stylewarning: Thank you.
2017-09-25T22:05:25Z stylewarning: didi look at the function EQUIVALENCE-CLASSES here https://github.com/tarballs-are-good/quickutil/blob/master/quickutil-utilities/utilities/sequences.lisp
2017-09-25T22:05:53Z Fare: stylewarning: did you change your twitter name, or did you create a new account?
2017-09-25T22:06:03Z stylewarning: Don’t mind the DEFUTIL stuff. Just look at the DEFUN
2017-09-25T22:06:08Z stylewarning: Fare changed twitter name
2017-09-25T22:06:28Z Fare: stylewarning, and is the ALU still active?
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2017-09-25T22:06:46Z stylewarning: Fare, yes, have my emails not gone through?
2017-09-25T22:06:58Z stylewarning: didi the EQUIV argument is your SAMEP
2017-09-25T22:07:09Z didi: stylewarning: Cool, thank you.
2017-09-25T22:07:40Z Fare: next year ICFP is colocated with StrangeLoop, and quite possibly the Scheme Workshop with it.
2017-09-25T22:07:47Z pjb: (mapcar (lambda (class) (cons (car (first class)) (reduce (function append) class :key (function cdr))))  (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:equivalence-classes '((1 a) (2 b) (1 c) (3 d)) :test (function eql) :key (function car))) #| --> ((3 d) (2 b) (1 c a)) |#
2017-09-25T22:07:59Z Fare: I was an acceptable program chair but DREADFUL publicity chair for it
2017-09-25T22:08:08Z stylewarning: didi so the call will be something like (mapcar ‘combine-lists (equivalence-classes ‘samep list))
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2017-09-25T22:12:07Z stylewarning: _death it would be cool if you tried to make some public. Most of my lisp-random is garbage
2017-09-25T22:14:11Z stylewarning: Gems like https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/a595eb662c2dce87f362dd0dd2541a93efe9c902/cxr.lisp?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default
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2017-09-25T22:18:39Z _death: stylewarning: I sometimes lisppaste/gist snippets.. as in your case, some of them grow to become libraries.. maybe in the future I'll decide to publish a "revised" history
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2017-09-25T22:37:57Z _death: stylewarning: anyway, here's a recent one http://paste.lisp.org/display/356862
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2017-09-25T22:43:38Z stylewarning: _death pretty cool :D
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2017-09-25T22:49:05Z _death: the gifs themselves are pretty cool.. e.g., http://london.harekiet.com/compo/index.php?nick=dila
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2017-09-26T00:35:09Z jmercouris: anyone have experience with macdeployqt?
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2017-09-26T01:59:12Z emaczen: I have a cryptic error from SBCL which says: the value 65583 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16) when binding SB-ALIEN::VALUE
2017-09-26T01:59:24Z emaczen: I am not getting this error at all with CCL
2017-09-26T02:01:02Z stylewarning: Maybe CCL is doing something wrong
2017-09-26T02:01:08Z stylewarning: Like clobbering a register
2017-09-26T02:02:17Z emaczen: stylewarning: I just have no idea what to do
2017-09-26T02:07:34Z stylewarning: emaczen: have you narrowed down where the function that’s erroring is
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2017-09-26T02:08:55Z emaczen: stylewarning: I can see the backtrace
2017-09-26T02:09:00Z emaczen: It isn't my code
2017-09-26T02:09:04Z emaczen: as far as I can tell?
2017-09-26T02:09:15Z stylewarning: Maybe paste the code or the backtrack
2017-09-26T02:09:22Z stylewarning: ace *
2017-09-26T02:10:45Z emaczen: stylewarning: Sure I'll paste the backtrace
2017-09-26T02:16:40Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356871
2017-09-26T02:18:18Z White_Flame: I htink you're going to have to disable linewrapping
2017-09-26T02:18:29Z White_Flame: (or enable it)
2017-09-26T02:19:36Z White_Flame: but since (LOAD #P"/home/.../.cache/common-lisp.....") is in there, one of the first orders of business is to rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ and rebuild everything
2017-09-26T02:20:13Z White_Flame: something might have gotten built and stuck around in your fasl cache that isn't compatible with the version you're running now
2017-09-26T02:20:56Z emaczen: White_Flame: Cool, I'll try it now
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2017-09-26T02:22:44Z emaczen: nope same error but different number I think. 65738 is not of type ...
2017-09-26T02:23:15Z White_Flame: well, then get the non-truncated stacktrace including full error message
2017-09-26T02:24:01Z emaczen: yep, I'm working on it
2017-09-26T02:25:14Z White_Flame: I have a feeling that the "/ps/index.js" is being loaded as something that it shouldn't
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2017-09-26T02:26:40Z emaczen: White_Flame: I have a program that generates programs, and then I do (asdf:load-system :program-name)
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2017-09-26T02:26:55Z emaczen: I have 7 or 8 successful programs
2017-09-26T02:27:14Z emaczen: I'm trying to get 3 more to work but they all give this output
2017-09-26T02:27:19Z White_Flame: are you sure everything is using the exact same SBCL at each step?
2017-09-26T02:27:50Z emaczen: How would I know?
2017-09-26T02:28:04Z White_Flame: well for one, do you have multiple SBCLs installed on your system? :)
2017-09-26T02:28:48Z emaczen: 'which sbcl' would tell me right?
2017-09-26T02:29:08Z emaczen: It only returns one path at /usr/local/bin/sbc
2017-09-26T02:29:10Z White_Flame: well, if it's on the path.  Not sure fi that returns multiples?
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2017-09-26T02:29:35Z White_Flame: basically, did you ever install multiple sbcls?  as in, maybe one from apt and one from source, or multiple different source builds hanging around?
2017-09-26T02:30:03Z iqubic: Why would one want to use macros if you have functions already?
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2017-09-26T02:30:25Z White_Flame: iqubic: because functions don't transform code, and always evaluate their arguments
2017-09-26T02:30:37Z White_Flame: macros are essentially functions at build time
2017-09-26T02:31:04Z iqubic: So how can I tell which one I want to use in my code?
2017-09-26T02:31:15Z White_Flame: if you can write it in a function, use a function
2017-09-26T02:31:24Z White_Flame: if you can't figure out how to make it work with a function, use a macro
2017-09-26T02:31:40Z iqubic: That's a good rule of thumb.
2017-09-26T02:31:53Z White_Flame: and if functions get too unwieldy to use, ie (my-func (lambda (x) ...) (lambda (y) ...)) then maybe you should use a macro to generate the code body instead
2017-09-26T02:32:20Z emaczen: iqubic: a simple but very useful example is the anaphoric if macro
2017-09-26T02:32:53Z emaczen: iqubic: then you can try it yourself and extend it to anaphoric cond and anaphoric case and anaphoric typecase
2017-09-26T02:33:06Z White_Flame: right, 'if' via function is (iffunc test-val (lambda () then...) (lambda () else...)
2017-09-26T02:33:13Z White_Flame: )
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2017-09-26T02:33:33Z White_Flame: and functions can have more performance overhead, if performance is an issue
2017-09-26T02:34:00Z White_Flame: (although inlining functions can alleviate a lot of that)
2017-09-26T02:34:15Z White_Flame: (but not when things are passing around function objects as parameter)
2017-09-26T02:34:16Z White_Flame: s
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2017-09-26T02:34:28Z emaczen: usually if or cond is a "special builtin" I can't remember the terminology, but then the one that is not "builtin" could be implemented as a macro expansion of the other
2017-09-26T02:34:39Z White_Flame: "special form"
2017-09-26T02:34:53Z emaczen: hah yes
2017-09-26T02:36:01Z emaczen: White_Flame: Ok, so these 3 new programs are about 3 times the size of my other programs just by looking at my databases
2017-09-26T02:36:30Z emaczen: White_Flame: I don't think that should really matter, but it is the only real difference that I am aware of
2017-09-26T02:37:38Z White_Flame: hmm, could be a legit overflow bug then
2017-09-26T02:38:01Z White_Flame: best to give _full_ info in #sbcl
2017-09-26T02:38:02Z iqubic: So, I'm writing my emacs config, and I'm noticing a certain pattern crop up a fair few times. I just want to install a package with use-package and not configure it.
2017-09-26T02:38:10Z iqubic: example shown here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356874
2017-09-26T02:38:30Z iqubic: Can I create a function or a macro that just calls that code?
2017-09-26T02:39:01Z White_Flame: iqubic: more a question for #emacs
2017-09-26T02:39:15Z iqubic: The only trick is that each of these use two separate symbols: "foo' and 'foo-mode'.
2017-09-26T02:39:23Z White_Flame: lots of people here (like me) know CL and don't really know the ins & outs of emacs lisp
2017-09-26T02:39:30Z iqubic: I'll take this to emacs then.
2017-09-26T02:39:45Z emaczen: iqubic: there are several commonlisp IDEs like emacs if you are interested
2017-09-26T02:40:01Z iqubic: emaczen, that's not why I want emacs.
2017-09-26T02:41:05Z emaczen: White_Flame: I'll try posting there.
2017-09-26T02:41:53Z emaczen: From my experience without doing much work, SBCL gets me faster code but CCL will generally just work (more robust)
2017-09-26T02:42:19Z Fare: what kind of failures do you experience with SBCL???
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2017-09-26T02:42:34Z White_Flame: the only non-robustness I've hit with SBCL is running it on windows a long time ago
2017-09-26T02:42:56Z emaczen: Fare: They aren't really failures, I just get the occasional error like this one I have now
2017-09-26T02:43:08Z Fare: what error is that?
2017-09-26T02:43:18Z emaczen: Maybe CCL is supposed to give an error some of these times, but it just doesn't -- I don't know
2017-09-26T02:43:37Z emaczen: I get better backtraces with CCL too, but is that just a SLIME thing?
2017-09-26T02:43:42Z emaczen: Where does the backtrace information come from?
2017-09-26T02:43:54Z Fare: I remember having concurrency issues in sbcl, but that was long ago. The only lingering issue I had was some code that triggered bad behavior in its optimizer, leading to explosion during flow analysis.
2017-09-26T02:44:07Z White_Flame: Fare: <emaczen> I have a cryptic error from SBCL which says: the value 65583 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16) when binding SB-ALIEN::VALUE  [19:22:08] <emaczen> http://paste.lisp.org/display/356871
2017-09-26T02:44:52Z White_Flame: Fare: heh, I remember the slow-macro-expansion behavior.  Got killed in build time for a 15+kloc macro expansion
2017-09-26T02:45:16Z White_Flame: well, slow-handling-of-big-forms behavior, or something
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2017-09-26T02:45:30Z Fare: I remember issues with FFI where the ABI said that high bits should be ignored, but SBCL failed to clear them.
2017-09-26T02:45:37Z Fare: is that a similar case?
2017-09-26T02:45:46Z White_Flame: his issue is during a fasl load from cache
2017-09-26T02:45:58Z White_Flame: but I don't know anythign more than that
2017-09-26T02:45:59Z emaczen: White_Flame: I cleared the cache though
2017-09-26T02:46:19Z White_Flame: yeah, but when you rebuilt, it put a .fasl there again and loaded it, if you got the same error
2017-09-26T02:46:24Z Fare: you'll have better change on #sbcl and/or reporting a bug on launchpad
2017-09-26T02:46:35Z White_Flame: emaczen: are you using any FFI libraries?
2017-09-26T02:46:57Z Fare: but yeah, I don't think there are a lot of paid sbcl maintainers... last I knew, there was one at Google
2017-09-26T02:48:23Z emaczen: White_Flame: The only code that I depend on is hunchentoot and parenscript
2017-09-26T02:49:29Z emaczen: White_Flame: I have one more last ditch ideas to try; hold on.
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2017-09-26T02:53:01Z iqubic: So, if my functions relies on symbol "foo" and symbol "foo-mode" is there a nice way to get them both, while only passing one in as a parameter.
2017-09-26T02:53:28Z iqubic: And yes, I do need the symbols by those names, and not the values they are bound to.
2017-09-26T02:55:22Z iqubic: I know I could do (defun simple-use (package-name mode-name) (body here)), but that seems like overkill because I will always call that function like such:
2017-09-26T02:55:44Z iqubic: (simple-use 'foo 'foo-mode)
2017-09-26T02:56:14Z iqubic: pr (simple-use 'foo-bar-baz 'foo-bar-baz-mode)
2017-09-26T02:56:20Z iqubic: that seems redundant
2017-09-26T02:56:28Z iqubic: s/pr/or/
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2017-09-26T02:58:19Z emaczen: White_Flame: how do I post with line wraps?
2017-09-26T02:59:06Z White_Flame: easiest would be to make your window wide enough. :-P  That, or nose around the emacs menus
2017-09-26T03:00:07Z emaczen: I'm using emacs in the terminal for this... I didn't see anything
2017-09-26T03:00:51Z White_Flame: does C-x h select everything?
2017-09-26T03:02:26Z emaczen: Yeah but it doesn't copy to the clipboard
2017-09-26T03:03:03Z White_Flame: ...right, that's what M-w is for
2017-09-26T03:03:07Z White_Flame: at least for pasting around emacs
2017-09-26T03:03:15Z White_Flame: not sure if that leaks through the terminal
2017-09-26T03:04:36Z emaczen: I could probably get it through the machine I am using here, but I'll do that in a bit
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2017-09-26T03:46:34Z z3t0: hi all I have a few  questions
2017-09-26T03:46:51Z z3t0: I am using drakma to get an image file, which is given as an octet vector
2017-09-26T03:47:06Z z3t0: How would I turn this into an object that I can write to a file? Do I simply write this binary data
2017-09-26T03:48:48Z White_Flame: yes, you can open a file with :element-type 'unsigned-byte, then write-sequence should shove those bytes through
2017-09-26T03:49:51Z z3t0: alright thanks
2017-09-26T03:50:01Z z3t0: also how do i cancel something in slime?
2017-09-26T03:50:04Z loke: White_Flame: ('unsigned-byte 8)
2017-09-26T03:50:07Z loke: White_Flame: '(unsigned-byte 8)
2017-09-26T03:50:20Z z3t0: I have a 1000 line thing entered into the repl but need some way to cancel it
2017-09-26T03:50:27Z z3t0: I tried C-g but that doesnt achieve what i want
2017-09-26T03:50:28Z White_Flame: yeah, true.  an example in the spec I was looking at just had 'unsigned-byte
2017-09-26T03:50:30Z cromachina: C-c a bunch
2017-09-26T03:50:48Z White_Flame: cromachina:  twice, specifically
2017-09-26T03:50:48Z z3t0: that brings up an interrupt
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2017-09-26T03:51:01Z z3t0: the thing is i need to remove something I have in the repl
2017-09-26T03:51:05Z z3t0: not cancel a running task
2017-09-26T03:51:25Z cromachina: oh slime-repl-clear-buffer
2017-09-26T03:51:41Z White_Flame: C-c C-u
2017-09-26T03:51:48Z z3t0: thank you!
2017-09-26T03:51:58Z z3t0: i was about to try deleting all of it haha
2017-09-26T03:52:07Z White_Flame just nosed through the REPL menu in the emacs menu bar :-P
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2017-09-26T04:05:21Z iqubic: Is there a way to take symbol like "foo-bar-baz" and get the symbol whose name is just that with "-mode" appended to the end?
2017-09-26T04:06:39Z iqubic: So have a function/macro that takes the symbol "test" and returns the symbol "test-mode"
2017-09-26T04:08:32Z Bicyclidine: yeah, get the symbol name, concatenate it like a string, intern
2017-09-26T04:08:39Z Bicyclidine: if you mean CL, no idea about elisp
2017-09-26T04:09:15Z iqubic: How would that work in CL?
2017-09-26T04:09:35Z Bicyclidine: symbol-name, concatenate, intern
2017-09-26T04:09:37Z Bicyclidine: are the functions
2017-09-26T04:10:01Z iqubic: Can you show me what this looks like in actually code?
2017-09-26T04:10:08Z z3t0: how does one build strings in lisp
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2017-09-26T04:10:20Z White_Flame: (format nil "~a~a" symbol '-mode) is IMO easier than dealing with symbol-name
2017-09-26T04:10:23Z z3t0: say I have "My name is - " and i want the "-" to be replaceable by a variable
2017-09-26T04:10:46Z Bicyclidine: (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name 'foo-bar-baz) "-TEST"))
2017-09-26T04:10:47Z White_Flame: and by using a symbol for the suffix you want to add, it ensures it's using the proper case
2017-09-26T04:11:11Z z3t0: is there not a more straight forward method?
2017-09-26T04:11:19Z White_Flame: also, you probably want to intern to the symbol-package of the given symbol
2017-09-26T04:11:37Z White_Flame: z3t0: check the alexandria library, it might have something thre
2017-09-26T04:11:38Z iqubic: White_Flame: I'm using a library that requires these to symbol names and not values.
2017-09-26T04:11:39Z z3t0: in python there's {} inside which you can do normal python computation, maybe i should just write a macro
2017-09-26T04:11:40Z White_Flame: *there
2017-09-26T04:11:43Z z3t0: alright il check that first
2017-09-26T04:12:00Z iqubic: what does format do if the first arg is nil?
2017-09-26T04:12:06Z White_Flame: returns a string
2017-09-26T04:12:41Z iqubic: And what does your particular format example do?
2017-09-26T04:12:50Z White_Flame: prints 2 symbols
2017-09-26T04:13:03Z White_Flame: also, you sure you shouldn't be in #clnoobs instead? ;)
2017-09-26T04:13:19Z iqubic: I probably should be.
2017-09-26T04:13:25Z White_Flame: you'll tend to get very comprehensive (ie not newbie-friendly) answers here
2017-09-26T04:13:32Z iqubic: I see.
2017-09-26T04:13:35Z z3t0: I should be able to just (contatenate s"asd "asdasd " "asd" i think?)
2017-09-26T04:14:04Z White_Flame: (concatenate 'string "foo" "bar" "blah") to be specific
2017-09-26T04:14:12Z iqubic: White_Flame: prints the 2 symbols to where?
2017-09-26T04:14:21Z z3t0: alright, and would i need to manually convert a number to a string?
2017-09-26T04:14:21Z White_Flame: to the string that's returned
2017-09-26T04:14:22Z iqubic: Or should I take this to #clnoobs?
2017-09-26T04:14:29Z iqubic: Ah.
2017-09-26T04:14:43Z pjb: z3t0: you're assuming that some of us know anything about Python.  This is a wild bet!
2017-09-26T04:14:54Z z3t0: i mean in cl sorry
2017-09-26T04:15:08Z White_Flame: z3t0: that wouldn't be concatenation if you're not working with strings
2017-09-26T04:15:14Z z3t0: ah okay
2017-09-26T04:15:23Z z3t0: so i should do a conversion got it
2017-09-26T04:15:44Z White_Flame: if you need to build a string, FORMAT is the usual go-to, unless you need to worry about performance
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2017-09-26T04:15:57Z pjb: z3t0: note that you can write your own format specifiers.
2017-09-26T04:16:03Z z3t0: right of course
2017-09-26T04:16:08Z z3t0: I'm just learning haha
2017-09-26T04:16:12Z z3t0: one step at a time
2017-09-26T04:16:25Z Zhivago: And you can write your own macros and functions to do what you want in the way you want.
2017-09-26T04:16:41Z iqubic: White_Flame: what does "~a~a" do in a format string?
2017-09-26T04:17:18Z Zhivago: One alternative to concatenation might be to instead print and capture the output in a string.
2017-09-26T04:17:19Z White_Flame: iqubic: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html
2017-09-26T04:18:02Z White_Flame: in fact, read or buy the whole book http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ :)
2017-09-26T04:19:06Z pjb: (defun cl-user::ev (stream argument colon at &rest parameters) (declare (ignore colon at parameters)) (prin1 (eval argument) stream))  (format t "Foo ~/ev/ bar" '(+ 1 2)) #| Foo 3 bar --> nil |#
2017-09-26T04:19:30Z pjb: z3t0: this would be the equivalent of python "Foo {1+2} bar", I guess.
2017-09-26T04:19:50Z z3t0: right
2017-09-26T04:20:03Z z3t0: For now i am just converting it to strings and then later i'll write up a macro so i dont have to do all of this
2017-09-26T04:20:12Z pjb: And silly, but that's what you get for asking equivalents from Python (or any other language for that matter).
2017-09-26T04:20:20Z White_Flame: (format t "Foo ~a bar" (+ 1 2)) ? :-P
2017-09-26T04:20:25Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-26T04:20:56Z pjb: That said, there are libraries for interpolated strings in CL…  I don't know any code using them.
2017-09-26T04:20:57Z White_Flame: but yeah, the ~// form can be passed around as a single string
2017-09-26T04:21:26Z pjb: http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/
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2017-09-26T04:22:17Z pjb: So you could write #?"Foo ${(+ 1 2)} bar"
2017-09-26T04:22:37Z pjb: The point being of course, to choose WHEN the expression is evaluated…
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2017-09-26T04:23:12Z White_Flame: You could also pour bleach into your eyes and gargle broken glass, just sayin'...
2017-09-26T04:23:27Z White_Flame: but Lisp will still let you do it ;)
2017-09-26T04:23:28Z pjb: (But from the examples of cl-interpol, #?"" builds a run-time expression, so it's useless (ie. no read-time evaluation, no string literals).
2017-09-26T04:23:57Z pjb: Well, you can always use #.(format nil …)
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2017-09-26T04:33:29Z z3t0: i'll just use format I think, seems the smartest way to do it
2017-09-26T04:33:37Z z3t0: anyways i gotta get some sleep so gn and thanks!
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2017-09-26T05:37:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-26T05:37:38Z theemacsshibe[m]: (good 'afternoon)
2017-09-26T05:39:04Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2017-09-26T05:39:20Z theemacsshibe[m]: yep, new. both to LISP and this channel
2017-09-26T05:39:30Z theemacsshibe[m]: also I don't usually use matrix for irc but why not
2017-09-26T05:39:41Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: OK, welcome then.
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2017-09-26T05:40:27Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: Lesson 1: we have written the name of the language "Lisp" for the past few decades.  When you write LISP, most people here think of some very early version of the language.
2017-09-26T05:40:48Z theemacsshibe[m]: alright then
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2017-09-26T05:42:11Z theemacsshibe[m]: Lisp it is
2017-09-26T05:42:17Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: So, are you planning to learn to program in Common Lisp?
2017-09-26T05:42:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: yes I am beach
2017-09-26T05:42:48Z beach: Excellent!
2017-09-26T05:43:23Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1))
2017-09-26T05:44:51Z caffe is slowly preparing to write a lisp dialect
2017-09-26T05:45:04Z theemacsshibe[m] wrote a LISP compiler for giggles
2017-09-26T05:45:24Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: Most people here recommend you use either SBCL, CCL, or ECL for your Common Lisp implementation, and Emacs+SLIME as your development environment.
2017-09-26T05:45:30Z theemacsshibe[m]: well really it's painful s-type BASIC
2017-09-26T05:46:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: I already use Emacs+Slime and have both SBCL and GNU CLisp (man page didn't have a capitalisation for that so idk) so that seems alright
2017-09-26T05:46:43Z beach: It does, yes.
2017-09-26T05:47:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: oh, it's GCL.
2017-09-26T05:47:17Z beach: That one is NOT recommended.
2017-09-26T05:47:38Z theemacsshibe[m] grumbles
2017-09-26T05:47:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: fine, I'll use SBCL then
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2017-09-26T05:48:57Z iqubic: Can lambdas be nullary? Like this: (lambda () (stuff goes here)) ?
2017-09-26T05:49:11Z beach: iqubic: Yes.
2017-09-26T05:49:19Z uint: Xach: I'm not sure if I'll be working on it yet. Just an idea right now. I'll reupload it when/if I have something that works!
2017-09-26T05:49:21Z beach: iqubic: But there is no such thing as "a lambda".
2017-09-26T05:49:29Z iqubic: No?
2017-09-26T05:49:29Z beach: iqubic: It is called "a function".
2017-09-26T05:49:36Z iqubic: Ah, I see.
2017-09-26T05:49:52Z beach: iqubic: In this case, an anonymous function.
2017-09-26T05:49:53Z iqubic: And I can call that function with funcall?
2017-09-26T05:50:00Z beach: yes.
2017-09-26T05:50:11Z theemacsshibe[m]: doing `((lambda () (+ 2 2)))` worked
2017-09-26T05:50:23Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: That's very different.
2017-09-26T05:50:24Z iqubic: Do I need to preface the definition with '# or no?
2017-09-26T05:50:49Z iqubic: beach: That actually the kind of thing I want. What theemacsshibe[m] said
2017-09-26T05:50:50Z beach: iqubic: No.  LAMBDA is a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...))
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2017-09-26T05:51:00Z iqubic: Got it.
2017-09-26T05:51:18Z iqubic: Wait, I though CL was case-insensitive
2017-09-26T05:51:48Z beach: iqubic: Well, that is a special case.  It is called a "lambda form".
2017-09-26T05:52:12Z beach: iqubic: The default reader parameter converts lower case to upper case.
2017-09-26T05:52:31Z beach: I just use upper case to distinguish code from ordinary text.
2017-09-26T05:52:54Z iqubic: (defvar func (lambda () (+ 2 2))) and then (funcall func) returns 4?
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2017-09-26T05:53:01Z iqubic: Am I getting that right?
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2017-09-26T05:53:04Z beach: Yes.
2017-09-26T05:53:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: works here
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2017-09-26T06:06:00Z iqubic: Can a function return a symbol, as opposed to a value?
2017-09-26T06:06:21Z Shinmera: everything is a value.
2017-09-26T06:06:30Z iqubic: Even a symbol?
2017-09-26T06:06:55Z iqubic: What if the last line of my function is (intern foo) will that work?
2017-09-26T06:07:11Z Shinmera: I'd appreciate it if you used your REPL to evaluate things and not IRC.
2017-09-26T06:07:21Z iqubic: Me?
2017-09-26T06:07:29Z Shinmera: Yes you.
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2017-09-26T06:14:12Z Zhivago: iquibic: Yes, symbols are values.
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2017-09-26T06:17:31Z |3b|: also, note that INTERN is a function :)
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2017-09-26T06:18:33Z iqubic: How the heck does one write a macro?
2017-09-26T06:18:44Z beach: clhs defmacro.
2017-09-26T06:18:44Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for defmacro..
2017-09-26T06:18:56Z beach: clhs defmacro
2017-09-26T06:18:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm
2017-09-26T06:19:40Z |3b|: more or less same as writing a function, with some extra options for the argument list, just remember the input it gets is different from what a function would get if evaluated in same context
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2017-09-26T06:34:14Z iqubic: What happens if one macro contains another macro inside it?
2017-09-26T06:35:26Z iqubic: Does the reader keep expanding macros until there are none left? That's the behavior I need. That's also why a plain function won't do.
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2017-09-26T06:37:26Z flip214: iqubic: take a look at these:
2017-09-26T06:37:30Z flip214: clhs macroexpand-all
2017-09-26T06:37:30Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for macroexpand-all.
2017-09-26T06:37:34Z flip214: clhs macroexpand-1
2017-09-26T06:37:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
2017-09-26T06:37:37Z |3b|: macro code is just normal CL code, works like any other. code in expansion of a macro is just normal CL code, works like any other (including expanding any macros in it)
2017-09-26T06:37:47Z flip214: clhs macroexpand
2017-09-26T06:37:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
2017-09-26T06:38:11Z iqubic: but function expansion isn't a thing is it?
2017-09-26T06:38:15Z |3b| isn't sure if you meant a macro used in the definition of the macro, or one in the code it returns
2017-09-26T06:38:39Z iqubic: macro used in the code returned.
2017-09-26T06:38:54Z iqubic: in fact the code returned is on single macro call.
2017-09-26T06:39:55Z iqubic: And it is that returned macro that I need to have be expanded.
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2017-09-26T06:41:01Z flip214: iqubic: the reader uses MACROEXPAND, which does repeatedly expand macros.
2017-09-26T06:41:04Z flip214: please see
2017-09-26T06:41:07Z flip214: clhs macroexpand
2017-09-26T06:41:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
2017-09-26T06:41:21Z |3b|: reader doesn't macroexpand anything, evaluator or compiler does
2017-09-26T06:41:53Z |3b|: (it expand reader macros, but that is something different)
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2017-09-26T06:42:17Z flip214: |3b|: much too detailed for now, I believe.
2017-09-26T06:43:11Z Shinmera: You can be unspecific if you think it helps, but please don't just state blatantly false things. That's never helpful.
2017-09-26T06:43:14Z |3b|: simplifying is OK, simplifying until it is wrong is bad (at leaast if there is something comparably simple that is still correct)
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2017-09-26T06:44:00Z |3b| has the impression getting the distinction between read/evaluate/compile right helps a lot when learning CL
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2017-09-26T06:44:44Z iqubic: I don
2017-09-26T06:45:54Z iqubic: I don't know that distinction
2017-09-26T06:46:11Z |3b|: iqubic: feel free to ignore that discussion about reader/compiler stuff for now
2017-09-26T06:46:50Z |3b| doesn't think it is too important to learn it now, just that you don't learn some of it wrong now :)
2017-09-26T06:47:01Z |3b|: we can explain if you like though
2017-09-26T06:47:06Z iqubic: I will. I just needed to know if macros were repeatedly expanded recursively.
2017-09-26T06:47:24Z |3b|: they are
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2017-09-26T06:50:05Z iqubic: Cool
2017-09-26T06:55:43Z |3b|: though now that i think about it, if you are writing macros it may be time to learn about it soon. backquote is one of the places where it starts to matter
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2017-09-26T07:19:41Z |3b|: if i have MACROLETs A and B and i want B's expansion to depend on arguments to enclosing call to A, is there some way to do that besides emulating compiler-let with symbol-macrolet and macroexpand?
2017-09-26T07:22:11Z flip214: |3b|: care to paste an example?
2017-09-26T07:22:31Z |3b| hasn't written it yet :p
2017-09-26T07:22:56Z |3b|: but something like (a 'x (b ...)) and (a 'y (b ....)) where the 2 calls to B expand to diffferent things
2017-09-26T07:23:30Z flip214: hmmm, I guess you'll want to call MACROEXPAND within A here.
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2017-09-26T07:24:12Z |3b|: trying to generate code based on a description of a (nested) data structure, so A would change the context to a specific child, and B would be the part that does the work and needs to know which part of the tree it is looking at
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2017-09-26T07:24:56Z |3b| thought A would expand to a macrolet or symbol-macrolet that stores the context, then B macroexpands that to get the current value
2017-09-26T07:25:13Z flip214: have A bind some special variable while MACROEXPANDing its body, and make B look at that special?
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2017-09-26T07:25:27Z |3b|: rather than having a codewalker to look for all the nested A or B calls
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2017-09-26T07:25:58Z |3b|: A binding a special during macroexpansion is compiler-let, which didn't make it into CL :)
2017-09-26T07:26:16Z White_Flame: I tend to defer stuff like that to runtime setup
2017-09-26T07:26:22Z White_Flame: and use normal dynamic bindings
2017-09-26T07:26:34Z flip214: no, I meant calling MACROEXPAND yourself before splicing the (expanded) BODY in.
2017-09-26T07:26:59Z |3b|: this is all happening at runtime, but needs to be fast, so i want to generate specialized code at runtime
2017-09-26T07:27:19Z White_Flame: maybe you could shoehorn in compiler macros instead then?
2017-09-26T07:28:01Z |3b|: flip214: more general case would be (a 'z (loop for i below 10 do (b i ...))) or things like that
2017-09-26T07:28:43Z |3b|: White_Flame: don't think those help, they aren't even required to do anything and i'd like the code to be at least theoretically portable :)
2017-09-26T07:28:51Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah, re-reading here as well
2017-09-26T07:29:44Z White_Flame: it's hard to imagine even with manual MACROEXPAND calling to solve it without proper code walking, too
2017-09-26T07:30:06Z White_Flame: because you could inject a new parameter into B from A looking at its body
2017-09-26T07:30:32Z White_Flame: something like (a 'z (foo (b q))) => (foo (b q 'z))
2017-09-26T07:30:34Z |3b|: so i have local macros that need to communicate with eachother during expansion, and if i remember correctly, the way to do that is use symbol-macrolet (or normal macrolet) to store values in the compilation environment, and macroexand to extract them
2017-09-26T07:31:02Z |3b|: right, trying to do it from A is messy, since it needs a codewalker
2017-09-26T07:31:49Z |3b|: but B could just do (case (value-from-a) (x ...) (y ...) (z ...)) if there is some way to implement value-from-a
2017-09-26T07:31:59Z White_Flame: hmm, if A created a body that contained (macrolet ((b ...))) I wonder what sort of evil you could do without infinite recursion
2017-09-26T07:32:29Z |3b|: hmm, interesting idea
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2017-09-26T07:33:29Z |3b| 's case might be simple enough to just generate B (and new A) in that case
2017-09-26T07:35:23Z |3b|: possibly factoring out the A from each level into separate macros, so they don't have to be nested, though i don't think that matters too much
2017-09-26T07:35:54Z |3b|: (both are being generated, so don't need to be human understandable, though it would be nice for debugging)
2017-09-26T07:40:28Z |3b|: though now i'm thinking i may want communication in the other direction too, so A can do something with all the parts for which B wasn't called, not sure i can do that even with macroexpand
2017-09-26T07:41:08Z |3b|: maybe i should just write A as a list of parameters for B and not have B at aall
2017-09-26T07:41:24Z flip214: |3b|: just have A store a LAMBDA somewhere that B can call with the other data
2017-09-26T07:41:58Z flip214: or just have it set a symbol-macro that B then uses to call a function directly ;)
2017-09-26T07:42:57Z |3b|: oh right, i can't get rid of B because it could be inside a loop or somethying
2017-09-26T07:43:18Z pjb: |3b|: could you be more precise on your local macro communication?
2017-09-26T07:43:20Z |3b|: so yeah, may have to use a function to send values back to A
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2017-09-26T07:44:57Z |3b|: pjb: overall problem: given a spec for a recursive data structure (names + types + offsets in memory), i want to generate code that efficiently writes values into memory corresponding to the names. the spec isn't known until runtime, and may change over time.
2017-09-26T07:45:39Z |3b|: if a name is given that doesn't exist in the spec, the value can be discarded. if a name in the spec isn't written to, i'd like to be able to write a default value (possibly from the spec)
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2017-09-26T07:46:19Z pjb: Instead of writing something like:  (macrolet ((define-foo (name) …)  (get-foo (name) …))  (define-foo bar) (define-foo baz)   (+ (get-foo bar) (get-foo baz)))  write (macrolet ((with-foo (name &body body) `(macrolet ((,(scat 'get- name () …)) ,@body))))   (with-foo bar  (with-foo baz  (+ (get-bar) (get-baz)))))\
2017-09-26T07:46:23Z flip214: |3b|: is speed such a concern that some sane representation of the structure, and some "interpreter", isn't fast enough?
2017-09-26T07:46:46Z pjb: If the spec is not known until run-time then basically you don't need macros.
2017-09-26T07:47:01Z pjb: Define a functional API, and add macros as syntactic suggar if wanted.
2017-09-26T07:47:05Z |3b|: flip214: yeah, this is happening 10s of thousands of times per second, and needs to leave room for lots of other work
2017-09-26T07:47:23Z |3b|: (specifying data for GPU during rendering)
2017-09-26T07:47:37Z flip214: |3b|: how about the CL-PPCRE approach? this takes some variable input, and build some closure chain from that.
2017-09-26T07:47:47Z flip214: *builds
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2017-09-26T07:48:07Z pjb: When run-time speed is needed, you can compile at run-time.
2017-09-26T07:48:24Z |3b| also wants to be able to have type declarations on the source data, so for example it doesn't need to spend time determining each value in a specialized array is a single float
2017-09-26T07:48:44Z |3b|: right, this is compiling at run time, problem is writing the code to be compiled
2017-09-26T07:48:58Z pjb: This is not macro-related.
2017-09-26T07:49:16Z |3b|: macro is the DSL for specifying the data to write easily
2017-09-26T07:49:29Z pjb: No, you get the data at run-time.
2017-09-26T07:49:38Z |3b| fails to parse your define-foo/with-foo example
2017-09-26T07:50:15Z |3b| possibly wasn't clear... i have an output spec at runtime, and an input spec at compile time, and runtime compilation to combine the 2
2017-09-26T07:50:15Z pjb: Now, you could use (eval `(some-dsl-form ,some-data))  but it's clearly inferior to (take-some-run-time-data some-data) ;<- a functional API.
2017-09-26T07:50:44Z pjb: |3b|: I'm not surprised, since this macro example doesn't match your needs at all. You don't want macros.
2017-09-26T07:50:49Z |3b|: what does some-data look like?
2017-09-26T07:50:58Z pjb: (read)
2017-09-26T07:51:01Z pjb: It's your input data.
2017-09-26T07:51:29Z pjb: Your run-time "spec".
2017-09-26T07:51:38Z |3b|: how do i communicate that parts of it are simple-array :single-float (3), other parts are (unsigned-byte 32), etc?
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2017-09-26T07:51:58Z |3b|: (or that they aren't and so need checks/coerce/etc)
2017-09-26T07:52:17Z pjb: (spec (part one (simple-array single-float (3))) (part two (unsigned-byte 32)))
2017-09-26T07:52:30Z pjb: (spec (part one (simple-array single-float (3)) :check nil) (part two (unsigned-byte 32) :coerce t))
2017-09-26T07:52:38Z pjb: Whatever, you design your spec language as you wish.
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2017-09-26T07:52:54Z |3b|: ok, got confused, thought you meant the data being written according to the spec
2017-09-26T07:52:57Z pjb: Then (defun interpret-spec (spec) (case (first spec) ((spec) …) …))
2017-09-26T07:53:07Z |3b|: the spec is generated, with all needed type infor already
2017-09-26T07:53:16Z |3b|: (generated at runtime)
2017-09-26T07:53:21Z pjb: Yes, at run-time.
2017-09-26T07:53:30Z |3b|: now i need code that writes data according to that sspec
2017-09-26T07:53:34Z pjb: This is why you process it with FUNCTIONS at run-time.
2017-09-26T07:53:50Z pjb: (case spec (integer (write-integer)) (float (write-float)) …)
2017-09-26T07:53:52Z |3b|: right, i'm processing it with a function
2017-09-26T07:53:59Z pjb: You have to intepret the types in all details yourself.
2017-09-26T07:54:08Z |3b|: the macros are for the code that i use to write according to that spec
2017-09-26T07:54:15Z pjb: There's no macro.
2017-09-26T07:54:36Z |3b|: how does a vector of 1.1 2.2 3.3 get into part-one of your spec?
2017-09-26T07:54:36Z pjb: There cannot be macro, because the specs are known only at run-time.
2017-09-26T07:54:44Z pjb: The code is compiled years ago, at compilation-time.
2017-09-26T07:54:55Z pjb: |3b|: exactly as you want.
2017-09-26T07:54:57Z |3b|: the macros are compiled at run time
2017-09-26T07:55:07Z pjb: (defun generate (spec data) …)
2017-09-26T07:55:08Z |3b|: based on code that was written using thme
2017-09-26T07:55:35Z |3b|: what does data look like there?
2017-09-26T07:55:49Z pjb: I don't know. You know what your data is!
2017-09-26T07:56:00Z |3b|: it is arbitrary cl data
2017-09-26T07:56:11Z flip214: |3b|: you'd need macros if you want the code to exist BEFORE runtime.
2017-09-26T07:56:21Z |3b|: probably not corresponding to the spec data, since they weren't written at the same time
2017-09-26T07:56:22Z pjb: (generate '(simple-array single-float (3)) #(1.1 2.2 3.3))
2017-09-26T07:56:24Z pjb: perhaps.
2017-09-26T07:56:25Z flip214: as you need to create the code DURING runtime, you don't need macros.
2017-09-26T07:56:31Z pjb: generate is a FUNCTION.
2017-09-26T07:56:49Z flip214: as one example, "just" build a big "(DEFUN my-interpreter (input) ...)" form, and EVAL it.
2017-09-26T07:57:24Z |3b|: what does generate return?
2017-09-26T07:57:27Z flip214: or use COMPILE instead
2017-09-26T07:57:50Z pjb: |3b|: I don't know!  What should it?
2017-09-26T07:58:05Z pjb: |3b|: didn't you say you wanted to "write" something?
2017-09-26T07:58:19Z |3b|: right, so that would generate code to write that value?
2017-09-26T07:58:26Z pjb: Perhaps not.
2017-09-26T07:58:42Z pjb: I would advise to start with an interpreter, ie. to do the job directly.
2017-09-26T07:59:08Z pjb: Often, the dispatching is very lightweight, compared to the canned processing, so there's very little gain to generate lisp source and compile it.
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2017-09-26T07:59:18Z |3b| already does the job directly,  i have something that takes a nested hash table of the names -> data to write
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2017-09-26T08:00:11Z |3b|: but that is slow, since it does hash lookups and pointer calculations for each value, and tends to have unspecialized code so does extra type checks etc
2017-09-26T08:00:13Z pjb: Well, if it's too slow, then you can try to generate code to do it instead of doing it with those indirections.  Be careful to remove the maximum of indirections in the code you generate.
2017-09-26T08:01:06Z pjb: Yes. You can fetch the data from the table, and compute the pointers in generate, and generate source code that contains only literal and pre-computed values.
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2017-09-26T08:01:42Z pjb: But given that you're doing I/O, it's not sure you will gain anything. Have you profiled the current code?
2017-09-26T08:02:51Z |3b|: only IO is memory writes, and the profile did show lots of hash table and various sbcl internals from lack of declarations
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2017-09-26T08:03:26Z |3b| is stuck on windows with not very good profiler, so not completely sure, but fairly confident that was all the code i'm trying to optimize
2017-09-26T08:03:35Z pjb: Then you seems to be go for a generator.
2017-09-26T08:03:50Z |3b|: right, so i'm trying to write that
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2017-09-26T08:04:26Z |3b|: now i need to be able to specify to the code generator, what data it should be writing and how to access it
2017-09-26T08:05:01Z pjb: So you need to transform your spec dsl into lisp source.
2017-09-26T08:05:37Z |3b|: by spec you mean the runtime generated names+types+offsets data?
2017-09-26T08:05:59Z |3b|: (that doesn't have a dsl, it is completely data)
2017-09-26T08:06:03Z pjb: This is something that's so natural to do in lisp, that I must have a dozen of such generators around. But I'd have to locate them…
2017-09-26T08:06:21Z pjb: Yes those runtime generated names+types+offsets.
2017-09-26T08:06:29Z pjb: |3b|: data = code!
2017-09-26T08:06:54Z |3b| meant "data that i don't need to interact with as a user, so no dsl needed)
2017-09-26T08:06:59Z pjb: This (name type offset) data is the source code for your generator.  The lisp source will be the compiled code for that DSL.
2017-09-26T08:07:18Z pjb: Once you write an interpreter or a compiler, you have a DSL.
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2017-09-26T08:07:56Z |3b|: generating code from the name+type+offset isn't the part i'm having a problem with, it is matching it to the lisp data to be written
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2017-09-26T08:08:10Z pjb: and an interpreter is any function taking some data, and doing something according to that data (plus some other "input" data), while a generator (compiler) is any function that takes that data and generate a function that takes input data and produce the wanted results.
2017-09-26T08:08:39Z pjb: How so?
2017-09-26T08:08:52Z |3b|: so i want to write a DSL that takes names and lisp data, and matches them to the names in the name+type+offset spec
2017-09-26T08:09:11Z |3b|: (and automatically handles any mismatches between the 2 sets)
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2017-09-26T08:09:53Z |3b|: so i want lisp code that (concisely) says "write value X to location named by 'foo"
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2017-09-26T08:10:32Z pjb: No.
2017-09-26T08:10:50Z |3b|: or "following applies to struct at location named 'bar" with a set of "write value Y to location 'baz" which applies to 'baz in that struct
2017-09-26T08:10:54Z pjb: You want lisp code that concisely DOES write the value X to the location named by foo.  ie.:  (SETF FOO X).
2017-09-26T08:11:14Z |3b|: right, that is the end result
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2017-09-26T08:11:44Z |3b|: but i don't know at code-writing time what the offset of FOO is, or if it even exists
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2017-09-26T08:12:08Z pjb: You don't know anything bout foo at code-writing, since it will be specified at run-time!
2017-09-26T08:12:32Z |3b|: so i guess more precisely, the code i write would be saying "write X to location named by 'foo if it exists, otherwise write the default value specified for 'foo"
2017-09-26T08:12:46Z |3b|: right, just that i know i want to write value X to it if possible
2017-09-26T08:12:59Z |3b|: so what do i put in the source at code-writing time?
2017-09-26T08:13:28Z |3b|: in my idea, that was local macro B above, so i would write in the source, (B 'foo x)
2017-09-26T08:14:04Z |3b|: then at runtime, when the spec was available, it would be transformed into something like (setf (cffi:mem-ref 123 some-type) x)
2017-09-26T08:14:17Z |3b|: with a pointer in there somewhere too
2017-09-26T08:15:05Z |3b|: where X would be a parameter passed to the generated function, or some function of a parameter
2017-09-26T08:15:24Z |3b|: and i could do things like calling B in a loop to write elements of an array or whatever
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2017-09-26T08:16:54Z |3b|: and A would say "i'm writing to the struct at slot 'bar" or "i'm writing to the array at slot 'bar" (so really 2 different A, though i guess i could figure out which based on the spec)
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2017-09-26T08:17:51Z |3b|: and if there is no slot 'foo or 'bar, no code would be generated. and if there is a slot 'foo2 for which i hadn't specified anything to be written, some default value would be written by the generated code
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2017-09-26T08:19:21Z |3b|: so as far as i can tell, the part processing the "write X to Y" side needs to either be a complete code walker, or have some macros to implement the writing DSL
2017-09-26T08:19:51Z |3b| is probably working too close to my complexity limits though, so other suggestions are welcomed :)
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2017-09-26T08:28:22Z flip214: |3b|: how about writing some lisp code that translates your spec to the structure definitions used with alien code, and then use (slot-value 'foo) etc. to access the data?
2017-09-26T08:28:37Z flip214: have some handler-case around that to catch invalid slot names and you're done
2017-09-26T08:28:58Z |3b|: and as far as performance needs, i want to be able to write millions, probably tens of millions of values per second, while leaving as much time as possible for deciding which values to write and to actually use the data
2017-09-26T08:29:11Z |3b|: flip214: cffi you mean?
2017-09-26T08:29:25Z flip214: yeah, so that layout can be strictly specified...
2017-09-26T08:29:42Z flip214: lisp (DEFSTRUCT) isn't that flexible
2017-09-26T08:30:03Z |3b|: well, part of the problem is that i want it relatively non-strict :)
2017-09-26T08:30:05Z pjb: |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356898
2017-09-26T08:30:26Z flip214: |3b|: no, I meant strict MEMORY LAYOUT. If I understood you correctly.
2017-09-26T08:30:27Z |3b|: writing to slots that don't exist is allowed, and something happens to slots that aren't written
2017-09-26T08:30:39Z |3b|: the strict memory layout isn't known until runtime
2017-09-26T08:31:01Z |3b|: the output is mostly just cffi mem-ref or mem-aref calls
2017-09-26T08:31:07Z pjb: Of course, at any time in those compile-* functions, you can have non-literal specifications, ie. names that you will lookup (and call one of those compile-* function recursively).
2017-09-26T08:31:22Z |3b|: i know the exact offsets already, so specifying those to CFFI so foreign-slot-value can give them back to me is just extra work
2017-09-26T08:31:59Z pjb: And you could just look how CFFI is implemented and do the same.  (Or why not, just call the CFFI internal functions!)
2017-09-26T08:32:12Z |3b|: writing the data isn't the problem
2017-09-26T08:33:30Z |3b|: pjb: i don't see the compile-time / code-writing-time side
2017-09-26T08:34:00Z pjb: (compile-spec *run-time-spec*) is  compile-time  / code-writing-time side.
2017-09-26T08:34:18Z pjb: As denoted by the call to compile surrounding it.
2017-09-26T08:34:52Z |3b|: sorry, i mean the "before running the program" compile-time
2017-09-26T08:35:12Z |3b| apologizes if i'm specifying the problem poorly
2017-09-26T08:35:27Z |3b|: runtime compilation makes the terms less precise
2017-09-26T08:35:39Z pjb: So what do you want?
2017-09-26T08:36:01Z pjb: the defparameter should come below, it was written first, as a specification of the DSL.
2017-09-26T08:36:12Z pjb: as the name of the variable indicate, it's run-time data.
2017-09-26T08:36:26Z pjb: It's used at runtime to generate the function by compile-spec.
2017-09-26T08:36:37Z pjb: Which is then compiled at run-time by call to compile.
2017-09-26T08:36:53Z |3b|: before running the program, i want to write some code to write values to named locations in memory, where the names are hierarchical, so i might have in C terms, foo.bar[123].baz
2017-09-26T08:37:06Z pjb: Which is then called at run-time to store the data (here a literal vector, but it could be some other run-time data).
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2017-09-26T08:37:26Z pjb: |3b|: all that code is in  the defun above!
2017-09-26T08:37:35Z |3b|: at run time, i want to determine the available names/hierarchy and corresponding locations, then turn the previously written code into optimized code to do actual writing
2017-09-26T08:38:27Z pjb: In compile-store-specification, in the otherwise branch, you will add a (gethash (first specification) *named-types*) and if found, call compile-store-specification recursively on the obtained type value.
2017-09-26T08:38:32Z |3b|: that set of names/hierarchy might change, in which case i need to recompile the optimized writer function, without modifying the previously written code
2017-09-26T08:38:50Z pjb: I won't write all your code. This demonstrate the code generation.
2017-09-26T08:39:17Z pjb: Analyzing the specifications for your named data types, and incorporating in a hash-table, I assume you can do it yourself!
2017-09-26T08:39:42Z pjb: And again, this is already implemented in CFFI, so I don't understand why you don't just call the CFFI internal functions…
2017-09-26T08:40:02Z |3b|: you only pass a single vector, and assume you are writing values 0-N of it
2017-09-26T08:40:26Z |3b|: my problem is that i want to pass arbitrary data, possibly from multiple sources, possibly not using all of it
2017-09-26T08:40:41Z |3b|: that's the part i'm not seeing in your code, and the part i'm having trouble with
2017-09-26T08:40:44Z pjb: Look, I won't answer anymore question until you provide a 100-page PDF with the specifications of your DSLs.
2017-09-26T08:41:08Z |3b|: specification of the DSL is what i'm trying to figure out :(
2017-09-26T08:41:09Z pjb: There are a finite number of lisp types!
2017-09-26T08:41:23Z |3b|: (since it is arbitrary and depends on the implementation)
2017-09-26T08:41:23Z pjb: The arbitrary data is only combinations of those finite lisp types.
2017-09-26T08:41:47Z |3b|: right, the interpretation of the data isn't the problem, the question is where it is
2017-09-26T08:42:11Z pjb: In compile-store-specification, in the otherwise branch, you will add a (gethash (first specification) *named-types*) and if found, call compile-store-specification recursively on the obtained type value.
2017-09-26T08:42:37Z |3b|: generating code for a particular type isn't the problem
2017-09-26T08:43:09Z pjb: https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/data-encoding/data-encoding.lisp#L1199
2017-09-26T08:44:37Z pjb: You said that you already had it: * |3b| already does the job directly,  i have something that takes a nested hash table of the names -> data to write
2017-09-26T08:44:45Z |3b|: right
2017-09-26T08:44:46Z pjb: Just use it  in compile-store-specification!
2017-09-26T08:44:58Z |3b|: the hash table?
2017-09-26T08:45:07Z pjb: Yes!
2017-09-26T08:45:18Z |3b|: the values in the hash table are being updated after the function is generates
2017-09-26T08:45:28Z pjb: Nope.
2017-09-26T08:45:32Z |3b|: yes
2017-09-26T08:45:36Z pjb: Nope.
2017-09-26T08:45:41Z pjb: You cannot have it both ways.
2017-09-26T08:45:50Z pjb: Notice that generating the code and compiling it takes time.
2017-09-26T08:46:04Z pjb: If your specification changes, then you will have to regenerate and recompile.
2017-09-26T08:46:13Z |3b|: right, which is why the runtime values can't be compiled in
2017-09-26T08:46:18Z pjb: It will soon be much quicker to keep the current interpreted solution.
2017-09-26T08:46:37Z |3b|: the layout specification changes rarely, and compiling a function on change is acceptable
2017-09-26T08:46:46Z pjb: Then do that.
2017-09-26T08:46:55Z |3b|: the values being written change constantly, so can't be compiled in
2017-09-26T08:47:07Z pjb: It's the ARGUMENT to the generated function!
2017-09-26T08:47:17Z |3b|: what format is that argument?
2017-09-26T08:47:21Z pjb: Try to read the code!
2017-09-26T08:47:24Z pjb: It's any lisp data!
2017-09-26T08:47:35Z pjb: The format is specified by the store sexp!
2017-09-26T08:47:46Z pjb: In the example, it's a vector of 4 elements.
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2017-09-26T08:48:55Z |3b|: more complicated data, arrays of clos instances containing arrays, etc
2017-09-26T08:49:59Z pjb: add clauses in the CASEs.
2017-09-26T08:50:00Z |3b|: so i need to specify and generate some complicated CL data structure, then figure out how to write to /that/ efficiently, instead of just extracting it from whatever it was already stored in?
2017-09-26T08:51:22Z pjb: Notice how the result of the getter is stored in a temp variable.
2017-09-26T08:51:35Z pjb: This can be done at any number of levels.
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2017-09-26T09:13:12Z |3b|: so any transformation of input data (like if i pass a clos instance and want to get the actual value from a slot of a value stored in that instance, or if i  want to add a constant to it), would be implemented as more code in compile-store-specification?
2017-09-26T09:13:33Z pjb: Yes.
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2017-09-26T09:13:48Z |3b| took a while to parse the code since it looks like it was working backwards from what i'm trying to do... still not 100%
2017-09-26T09:14:06Z |3b|: ok, that sounds like something i'm trying to avoid
2017-09-26T09:14:18Z |3b|: (or at least would like to avoid)
2017-09-26T09:14:22Z pjb: Nope, because it's a compiler.
2017-09-26T09:14:37Z |3b|: so is CL, which is why i wanted to use it :)
2017-09-26T09:14:41Z pjb: of course, as a simple compiler, it has a structure that is very similar to an interpreter (to the classical EVAL function).
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2017-09-26T09:14:58Z pjb: But the difference is that we generate code to store, instead of storing directly.
2017-09-26T09:15:25Z |3b|: right, i'm more arguing about what to compile.interpret
2017-09-26T09:15:50Z pjb: If you have to compute offsets, etc, then there may be an intermediate phase, where you will generate a list of "store operations", and then you will number this list, computing the offsets, before generating the actual operations with literal offsets.
2017-09-26T09:17:03Z pjb: Or if it stay simple, you may just pass the current offset to the compile-* functions, and let them compute the updated offset for their continuation.
2017-09-26T09:17:29Z |3b|: yeah, ignore the type/offset stuff for now
2017-09-26T09:17:50Z |3b|: can just pretend the destination if a big lisp array, and there is just a mapping of names to indices in that array
2017-09-26T09:17:52Z pjb: if you want, the important part is the pprint at the bottom of my paste.
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2017-09-26T09:18:00Z pjb: It shows that we generate a lambda expression.
2017-09-26T09:18:08Z |3b|: right, that part i already have :)
2017-09-26T09:18:42Z pjb: Then now you're free to do whatever you want, to generate whatever code pleases you in this lambda expression.
2017-09-26T09:19:16Z |3b|: right, i'm stuck at the "figure out what i want" part :)
2017-09-26T09:20:40Z pjb: You may also have a look at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/gnGCIasIrKo/o9wfrltLqxsJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/uc9fLw7i0Fo/HDoDDhx3DRkJ
2017-09-26T09:21:09Z pjb: Here, the processing of the data is made not according an external type specification, but using the type of the data itself!
2017-09-26T09:21:34Z pjb: But the principle is the same: we have a big case/cond dispatching on the type, and then we do what needs to be done specifically for this type of data.
2017-09-26T09:21:50Z pjb: This -> macro is a compiler, since it generates code!
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2017-09-26T09:22:25Z pjb: err, sorry, -> is a function: it's an interpreter.
2017-09-26T09:22:42Z pjb: But it could be defined as a macro generating the code, instead of an interpreter function.
2017-09-26T09:23:01Z pjb: that is, if we had the type specification available separately at macro-expansion time.
2017-09-26T09:23:59Z mejja: it's a pity cl doesn't have a sane macro system..
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2017-09-26T09:29:29Z Shinmera: If I wanted to write Scheme I'd just use Scheme, not complain about how CL is not Scheme in #lisp.
2017-09-26T09:30:29Z beach: Shinmera: Oh, but that's a popular sport here.
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2017-09-26T09:30:49Z pjb: Well, you can also use pseudo-scheme in CL.  A r7rs implementation embedded in CL would be welcome too.
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2017-09-26T09:31:13Z loke: Is there a Scheme implementation in CL?
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2017-09-26T09:32:42Z pjb: yes.
2017-09-26T09:33:10Z larsen: loke: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-349.pdf although I guess this is not what you were looking for
2017-09-26T09:33:12Z mejja: hardly..
2017-09-26T09:33:31Z |3b|: ok attempt at describing what i mean more concretely: http://paste.lisp.org/+7NDU/1
2017-09-26T09:33:36Z larsen: indeed it's MacLisp, not CL
2017-09-26T09:34:05Z |3b|: my problem is the middle part
2017-09-26T09:35:34Z |3b|: implementing that would require a code walker as far as i can see
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2017-09-26T09:36:13Z |3b|: seems like a full DSL would either require constant updating, or end up turing complete (and thus presumably even worse than a code walker)
2017-09-26T09:36:42Z pjb: |3b|: orthogonal to your question, you can implement the translation of CL source to whatever you want by using a different package than CL. Cf. CL-STEPPER!
2017-09-26T09:37:13Z |3b|: yeah, i do that already, that's the source of the name+type+offset data :)
2017-09-26T09:37:22Z pjb: |3b|: and the nice thing is that in CL, any function in CL can be opencoded (and any macro in CL can be a special operator).
2017-09-26T09:37:29Z |3b|: and being able to work on it interactively like CL code is why i have to deal with it at runtime
2017-09-26T09:38:38Z pjb: |3b|: so you can define a DEFUN macro (and say, LAMDBA, DEFGENERIC, DEFMETHOD macros), to process those setf and expand them to stores in this vector.
2017-09-26T09:39:01Z |3b|: right, that's what i'm implementing
2017-09-26T09:39:10Z pjb: So, cf. CL-STEPPER.
2017-09-26T09:39:42Z pjb: Then there's also the question of mixing normal setf with your setf in general code.
2017-09-26T09:39:56Z |3b|: right, i wasn't intending to actually use setf
2017-09-26T09:40:06Z |3b|: adds complication for no benefit
2017-09-26T09:40:23Z |3b|: so it was the B macro above
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2017-09-26T09:45:57Z |3b|: or like http://paste.lisp.org/+7NDU/2 for more reasonable level of verbosity
2017-09-26T09:46:14Z |3b| isn't sure if that would be harder to parse or not
2017-09-26T09:47:07Z |3b|: but closer to what i was intending for A and B macros
2017-09-26T09:48:04Z |3b|: B was the (setf (slot-value ...) ..) calls, A was equivalent to binding A and S there, while providing type information to B
2017-09-26T09:51:41Z |3b|: and another goal is that it could have a (declare (type (simple-array :single-float (*)) z)) declaration somewhere, so the generated function wouldn't need to do any checking on the individual values from Z to decide if it could write them as a float
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2017-09-26T09:55:09Z |3b|: other notable features are that the runtime spec doesn't have any data for 'foo2 in toplevel, or 'c in bar-type, and similarly, the person-written code doesn't write 'baz or 'd, but code is generated for them (and no code is written to write default values for other slots that are then overwritten by user code)
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2017-09-26T10:05:44Z pjb: Anyways, this is basic compiler stuff, so you know what to read and study…
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2017-09-26T11:11:19Z theemacsshibe[m]: Anyone on?
2017-09-26T11:13:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: What's a good way to save an object? I've just been formatting ~s objects to files and using read to read them again but using format feels a bit odd.
2017-09-26T11:14:03Z Xach: theemacsshibe[m]: that is not so bad if it works
2017-09-26T11:14:23Z Xach: theemacsshibe[m]: i use cl-store for more complex things
2017-09-26T11:14:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: I suppose so Xach, but it still feels wierd.
2017-09-26T11:14:46Z Xach: theemacsshibe[m]: it is good about storing instances, structures, hash tables, etc.
2017-09-26T11:14:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: (btw feel free to replace "object" with "nested lists")
2017-09-26T11:15:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: Alright, I'll go hit the docs for that. Thanks.
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2017-09-26T11:15:29Z Xach: the api is something like (cl-store:store object file) and (cl-store:restore file)
2017-09-26T11:15:42Z Xach: i have not yet had to look any deeper than that
2017-09-26T11:16:26Z theemacsshibe[m]: Docs suggest that, seems pretty straightforward. I'll install Quicklisp in the morning.
2017-09-26T11:16:47Z theemacsshibe[m]: Thankyou Xach
2017-09-26T11:16:52Z Xach: no problem
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2017-09-26T11:18:22Z Shinmera: If it's just for configuration files, there's also Ubiquitous
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2017-09-26T12:19:22Z Posterdati: hi
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2017-09-26T12:21:02Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
2017-09-26T12:24:30Z Posterdati: is there a way to override the standard structure constructor?
2017-09-26T12:25:43Z flip214: Posterdati: the name, or the complete function? both is possible.
2017-09-26T12:25:54Z flip214: just define your own function for the latter.
2017-09-26T12:26:21Z flip214: clhs defstruct
2017-09-26T12:26:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2017-09-26T12:26:55Z flip214: see :constructor
2017-09-26T12:26:56Z Posterdati: I read that, but how can I instantiate the struct? make-instance?
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2017-09-26T12:28:59Z _death: I think the nil constructor is more useful when the :type is list/vector
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2017-09-26T12:37:00Z beach: clhs allocate-instance
2017-09-26T12:37:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_alloca.htm
2017-09-26T12:37:29Z beach: Posterdati: ↑
2017-09-26T12:39:14Z knobo: Can I set up some hook in a bt-thread that will be run in that thread on a signal?
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2017-09-26T12:49:33Z Posterdati: beach, flip214 thanks
2017-09-26T12:51:52Z knobo: interrupt-thread, is it.
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2017-09-26T13:30:23Z didi: stylewarning: ping
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2017-09-26T13:35:03Z didi: Why does https://github.com/tarballs-are-good/quickutil/blob/5adb3463d99095145325c4013117bd08a8f6cac2/quickutil-utilities/utilities/sequences.lisp#L118 declare FLET functions as dynamic-extend? I only know about dynamic-extend because of Costanza's c.l.l. post.
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2017-09-26T13:35:49Z didi: Sorry, not FLET functions, but LABELS.
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2017-09-26T13:36:29Z beach: Probably hoping they will be allocated on the stack.
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2017-09-26T13:36:48Z didi: beach: oic
2017-09-26T13:37:14Z didi: beach: So I am guessing for performance reasons?
2017-09-26T13:37:20Z beach: Definitely.
2017-09-26T13:37:24Z didi: Thank you.
2017-09-26T13:37:31Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-26T13:38:40Z lieven: and in old speak to state that they're downward funargs. that also enables some optimisations.
2017-09-26T13:39:21Z didi: lieven: "funargs"? Sounds like a fun word.
2017-09-26T13:40:06Z lieven: we call them closures nowadays :)
2017-09-26T13:40:12Z didi: Oh. :-)
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2017-09-26T13:52:08Z stylewarning: didi: pong
2017-09-26T13:54:17Z didi: stylewarning: I am interested in why did you declare the labels functions as dynamic-extend in `equivalence-classes'.
2017-09-26T13:55:39Z stylewarning: didi: generally if I don’t want to save the function objects created by labels, I’ll declare them as dynamic extent, so the compiler knows it can allocate and free the memory right away
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2017-09-26T13:56:04Z didi: stylewarning: Thank you.
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2017-09-26T13:58:23Z stylewarning: didi, have you managed to get the function to work?
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2017-09-26T14:02:54Z didi: stylewarning: I didn't have the time yet, but I'm working on it.
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2017-09-26T15:26:35Z mrpat: I have a question about parenscript and Ben Hyde's plot-window in particular...
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2017-09-26T15:26:52Z mrpat: (defmacro ps-eval-in-client (&body parenscript-forms)
2017-09-26T15:26:53Z mrpat:   (let ((body `(progn ,@parenscript-forms)))
2017-09-26T15:26:55Z mrpat:     (when *catch-eval-in-client-errors*
2017-09-26T15:26:57Z mrpat:       (setf body `(try ,body
2017-09-26T15:26:58Z mrpat:                        (:catch (e)
2017-09-26T15:27:00Z mrpat:                          ((@ dw lg)
2017-09-26T15:27:01Z mrpat:                           (interpolate "[Error: ${(@ e message)}]"))
2017-09-26T15:27:03Z mrpat:                          e))))
2017-09-26T15:27:04Z mrpat:     `(send-global-eval
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2017-09-26T15:28:21Z dlowe: *applause*
2017-09-26T15:34:39Z didi: stylewarning: What do you think? https://paste.debian.net/hidden/bcf2c844
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2017-09-26T15:37:34Z z3t0: hi all
2017-09-26T15:37:46Z beach: Hello z3t0.
2017-09-26T15:37:59Z z3t0: is there a construct in lisp where i can do x and then evaluate if and then do x if the if evaluates to false?
2017-09-26T15:38:44Z z3t0: here's what i have, http://sprunge.us/eZNY Except I want the input to precede it as well
2017-09-26T15:40:02Z beach: (progn x (unless condition x))?  Is that what you mean.  I am having a hard time understanding what you want.
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2017-09-26T15:40:20Z beach: Perhaps you could be more explicit.
2017-09-26T15:40:44Z z3t0: okay so essentially I want to loop a request to the user for some input, as long as the input is not valid
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2017-09-26T15:41:14Z beach: (loop for input = (read) until (validp input))
2017-09-26T15:41:41Z z3t0: ah alright thanks
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2017-09-26T15:42:51Z z3t0: but I also want to repeat the call to (format)
2017-09-26T15:43:23Z beach: (loop for input = (progn (format "hello") (read)) until (validp input))
2017-09-26T15:43:39Z z3t0: ah okay thanks
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2017-09-26T15:45:13Z z3t0: okay so I have a function like (defun x (b a ) (b a )) where b is a function itself
2017-09-26T15:45:25Z z3t0: but i am getting an error saying b is not defined in the body of x
2017-09-26T15:45:43Z dlowe: z3t0: you have use (funcall b a)
2017-09-26T15:45:45Z z3t0: oh nevermind
2017-09-26T15:45:47Z z3t0: yeah that was silly of me
2017-09-26T15:45:57Z didi: brb
2017-09-26T15:46:00Z z3t0: too much javascript has messed me up
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2017-09-26T15:47:48Z z3t0: Just so I understand, the reason for funcall is because I am storing a function inside a variable?
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2017-09-26T15:49:45Z dlowe: z3t0: right.
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2017-09-26T15:55:31Z z3t0_: okay so I have (until (funcall x y )) which exits the loop as needed but then how do i return y there?
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2017-09-26T15:56:13Z dlowe: finally (return y)
2017-09-26T15:56:43Z z3t0_: alright thanks, it feels like loop itself is its own language haha
2017-09-26T15:57:32Z dlowe: It pretty much is.  These days, they're called DSLs - Domain Specific Language
2017-09-26T16:04:08Z z3t0_: Got it
2017-09-26T16:04:30Z z3t0_: Any recommendations for parsing floats from strings? There seem to be many different ways it is done?
2017-09-26T16:04:37Z z3t0_: maybe alexandria has something
2017-09-26T16:04:48Z dlowe: there's a parse-number library in quicklisp
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2017-09-26T16:05:07Z dlowe: if you trust your input, you can use read-from-string
2017-09-26T16:05:20Z z3t0_: Alright thanks
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2017-09-26T16:07:50Z dim: of course, never trust your input
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2017-09-26T16:09:57Z z3t0_: right
2017-09-26T16:10:08Z z3t0_: in this case its just for debugging so i should be ok
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2017-09-26T16:19:12Z White_Flame: if it's untrusted, I tend to match against a regex, then call READ
2017-09-26T16:19:15Z z3t0: is it possible to check if an argument is given?
2017-09-26T16:19:26Z z3t0: say I have (defun x (&key b))
2017-09-26T16:19:26Z White_Flame: slow, but functional
2017-09-26T16:19:45Z dim: a regexp is a poor's man parser
2017-09-26T16:19:47Z z3t0: I am trying to write an (if b (something) (else)) but it seems to complain that the form is incorrect
2017-09-26T16:19:50Z dim: rather build a parser.
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2017-09-26T16:20:47Z dim: z3t0: &key allows other forms with 2 and 3 parameters, check it out
2017-09-26T16:20:52Z dim: ,clsh &key
2017-09-26T16:21:11Z Bicyclidine: &key (b nil b-p)
2017-09-26T16:21:27Z Bicyclidine: but if b = nil means it's not given, it shouldn't "complain"
2017-09-26T16:21:32Z dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
2017-09-26T16:21:35Z Bicyclidine: more information on the "complaint" might help clarify
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2017-09-26T16:21:52Z dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm even, z3t0
2017-09-26T16:22:22Z z3t0: this is the error but isn't much help so i didn't include it http://sprunge.us/OBUa
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2017-09-26T16:22:29Z z3t0: I'll try what Bicyclidine suggested
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2017-09-26T16:23:22Z z3t0: ah never mind i had a small syntactic error
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2017-09-26T16:24:26Z Bicyclidine: that's perfectly helpful, you can see you have :type-converter set up as a keyword parameter
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2017-09-26T16:30:18Z dim:   the octet sequence #(252 98 110 101) cannot be decoded.
2017-09-26T16:30:47Z dim: using uiop:run-program :output :string here, is there a way to somehow plug babel or something in there?
2017-09-26T16:30:50Z didi: I'm back. If anyone want to comment on <https://paste.debian.net/hidden/bcf2c844>, please.
2017-09-26T16:31:07Z didi: The `subseq' call makes me uneasy.
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2017-09-26T16:34:49Z _death: https://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ is useful for this
2017-09-26T16:35:11Z didi: _death: Thank you.
2017-09-26T16:39:38Z z3t0: can anyone recommend a resource that explains how to use loop but is also easy to approach for beginners
2017-09-26T16:40:46Z _death: the chapter in practical common lisp?
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2017-09-26T16:46:20Z z3t0: I'm reading that thanks
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2017-09-26T16:51:11Z didi: What would be an exhaustive list of sequence types?
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2017-09-26T16:52:17Z _death: didi: there is no such list
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2017-09-26T16:52:33Z didi: _death: I see.
2017-09-26T16:53:45Z didi: I thought of using `listp' and `vectorp', but then I remembered SBCL has extensible sequence types.
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2017-09-26T16:54:09Z _death: clhs sequence
2017-09-26T16:54:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm
2017-09-26T16:54:35Z didi: _death: Thanks.
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2017-09-26T16:58:24Z stylewarning: didi: you should SETF the nreverse
2017-09-26T16:58:35Z stylewarning: (SETF X (NREVERSE X))
2017-09-26T16:59:32Z didi: stylewarning: Even though I am passing it as an argument?
2017-09-26T17:00:44Z stylewarning: Yep.
2017-09-26T17:01:01Z didi: Interesting. Why?
2017-09-26T17:01:01Z z3t0: Hi all
2017-09-26T17:01:15Z stylewarning: If X is the list (1 2) for example, X will always point to the cons (1 . ...)
2017-09-26T17:01:22Z z3t0: I am creating a program in lisp that stores a set of images with latitude and longitude coordinates for the center of the images
2017-09-26T17:01:40Z stylewarning: So if you NREVERSE, it may be that X still points to the same cons cell
2017-09-26T17:01:48Z didi: stylewarning: But I am not passing X, I am passing (nreverse X).
2017-09-26T17:01:58Z stylewarning: (NREVERSE X) will return (2 1) but X is still pointing to (1 . ...)
2017-09-26T17:02:10Z z3t0: I need to create a system  so that I can store all of the images with lat and lng and then write a function that takes lat and lng and then finds the closest image
2017-09-26T17:02:11Z _death: stylewarning: uh, no... it is passed to MAP.. but then, there shouldn't be an NREVERSE anyway, unless it's meant to be a destructive operator
2017-09-26T17:02:18Z stylewarning: Ah I see
2017-09-26T17:02:22Z z3t0: Can anyone suggest a method / data structure for this
2017-09-26T17:02:38Z stylewarning: Sorry, that’s right. The LET inside of the call to MAP threw me off
2017-09-26T17:02:53Z copec: Is there a way to query by "Pasted by" on paste.lisp.org?
2017-09-26T17:02:53Z stylewarning: In that case I recommend lifting the LET out of the MAP (:
2017-09-26T17:03:05Z didi: _death: I used `nreverse' for performance reasons, because `subseq' creates a new sequence anyway.
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2017-09-26T17:03:12Z didi: _death: I am naive?
2017-09-26T17:03:22Z didi: stylewarning: Thanks.
2017-09-26T17:04:09Z _death: didi: no, it's actually OK, since SUBSEQ will always create a new sequence
2017-09-26T17:04:10Z stylewarning: didi this isn’t universal among all lisp users but I prefer to prepare my data before executing on it, especially if it contains somewhat complicated logic
2017-09-26T17:04:15Z didi: _death: Thanks.
2017-09-26T17:04:35Z didi: stylewarning: Makes sense.
2017-09-26T17:04:45Z stylewarning: Here you have the logic of slicing and reversing, and it’s nice to make that evident before mapping (IMO)
2017-09-26T17:05:35Z didi: stylewarning: Agreed.
2017-09-26T17:07:06Z _death: z3t0: there is a spatial-trees library
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2017-09-26T17:07:51Z _death: z3t0: if you're using a database, it is also possible that it has a solution for that
2017-09-26T17:08:05Z z3t0: I'm not currently using a database but am actually thinking about it
2017-09-26T17:08:38Z z3t0: my thoughts was using something like redis with some prefetching of nearby data
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2017-09-26T17:11:28Z _death: z3t0: it seems redis added spatial queries.. guess I'll have to update my lredis library at some point in the future :)
2017-09-26T17:12:05Z z3t0: haha
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2017-09-26T17:13:25Z _death: silly how redis uses an ad-hoc protocol for its commands
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2017-09-26T17:19:39Z z3t0: how can i create a 2d array indexed by floats?
2017-09-26T17:19:52Z z3t0: So in my example I have latitude and longitudes for each image
2017-09-26T17:24:00Z _death: you don't.. array indices are integers
2017-09-26T17:27:20Z didi: I wish I had a better form than (if predicatep (do-something datum) datum).
2017-09-26T17:28:24Z oleo: ?
2017-09-26T17:28:37Z oleo: that's exactly what if is for
2017-09-26T17:28:48Z oleo: 2 case branching
2017-09-26T17:29:27Z didi: It is more about the concept. I want to do something to datum only if predicatep.
2017-09-26T17:29:46Z oleo: when predicatep
2017-09-26T17:29:57Z didi: But then `when' evals to nil.
2017-09-26T17:29:59Z shrdlu68: (or predicatep (do-something datum))
2017-09-26T17:30:13Z oleo: ah
2017-09-26T17:30:20Z oleo: ya
2017-09-26T17:30:25Z didi: shrdlu68: It evals to nil too.
2017-09-26T17:30:44Z didi: Actually, it evals to `predicatep'.
2017-09-26T17:31:36Z oleo: so ?
2017-09-26T17:31:47Z didi: So I want datum if (not predicatep).
2017-09-26T17:32:13Z oleo: (when (not predicatedp).....
2017-09-26T17:32:37Z didi: I think it still doesn't do what I want.
2017-09-26T17:32:57Z shrdlu68: Just use if.
2017-09-26T17:33:02Z oleo: ya
2017-09-26T17:33:12Z didi: That's what I've been doing, yes.
2017-09-26T17:33:31Z oleo: but we don't get the point
2017-09-26T17:34:07Z didi: I guess.
2017-09-26T17:34:32Z didi: Anyway, thanks.
2017-09-26T17:34:33Z _death: (funcall (if condition #'do-something #'identity) datum) ; if you like convoluted code
2017-09-26T17:34:45Z didi: Nah, I'm fine.
2017-09-26T17:34:54Z oleo: (progn (when (not predicatedp) datum) (dosomething predicatep)) or if you are in an implicit progn would do too
2017-09-26T17:35:22Z oleo: err dosomething datum i meant yea
2017-09-26T17:36:18Z didi: Maybe I should write a macro like (do-when predicatep fn datum). Doesn't look better, tho.
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2017-09-26T17:37:14Z _death: didi: indeed, stick with the IF
2017-09-26T17:37:24Z didi nods
2017-09-26T17:37:42Z z3t0: I'm trying to understand spatial-trees and I get the idea of it but am a bit confused regarding implementation
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2017-09-26T17:38:11Z oleo: what is it about actually ?
2017-09-26T17:38:40Z oleo: someone is planting on the moon  or so ?
2017-09-26T17:38:44Z oleo: lol
2017-09-26T17:39:23Z z3t0: aleo spatial trees?
2017-09-26T17:39:37Z z3t0: its a tree data structure that is used for spatial data, eg location
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2017-09-26T17:40:54Z oleo: and why you need a tree for that ?
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2017-09-26T17:42:11Z z3t0: It's a good way to do searches based on space
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2017-09-26T17:42:29Z z3t0: eg if you want to find the number of object within a certain unit
2017-09-26T17:42:39Z z3t0: Though I'm doing a terrible job explaining it ..
2017-09-26T17:42:50Z oleo: ok, no problem dude
2017-09-26T17:42:50Z z3t0: Can anyone help me understand https://github.com/rpav/spatial-trees/blob/master/tutorial.lisp line 30
2017-09-26T17:44:33Z z3t0: actually nevermind i think i've figured it out
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2017-09-26T17:53:36Z z3t0: how do i use the package "rectangle" from https://github.com/rpav/spatial-trees/blob/master/api.org
2017-09-26T17:54:02Z z3t0: I am using quickload which gives spatial-trees as an object but i cant figure out how to access the rectangles package
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2017-09-26T17:57:10Z Bicyclidine: it looks like there should be a rectangles package as part of the spatial-trees system?
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2017-09-26T17:57:31Z oleo: jep
2017-09-26T17:57:45Z oleo: don't try to load it
2017-09-26T17:58:02Z oleo: it should be already there try (find-package :rectangles) or so
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2017-09-26T17:59:16Z oleo: https://github.com/rpav/spatial-trees/blob/master/rectangles.lisp
2017-09-26T17:59:48Z oleo: https://github.com/rpav/spatial-trees/blob/master/spatial-trees.asd
2017-09-26T18:00:40Z oleo: it's a module
2017-09-26T18:01:43Z oleo: https://github.com/rpav/spatial-trees/blob/master/package.lisp
2017-09-26T18:03:49Z oleo: https://github.com/rpav/spatial-trees/blob/master/api.org and read that one too
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2017-09-26T18:04:08Z oleo: it informs you of symbol conflicts between the rectangles and the spatial-trees package
2017-09-26T18:04:20Z oleo: and how you can resolve it
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2017-09-26T18:09:57Z z3t0: thanks aleo
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2017-09-26T18:13:22Z oleo: did you find your package ?
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2017-09-26T18:16:58Z z3t0: i used a defpackage and used :use rectangles
2017-09-26T18:17:07Z z3t0: but I can't seem to do that for spatial-trees.nns
2017-09-26T18:17:31Z oleo: just look thru the sources
2017-09-26T18:18:32Z z3t0: alright
2017-09-26T18:18:41Z z3t0: I think i just need to figure out how packages work
2017-09-26T18:19:06Z oleo: nope
2017-09-26T18:19:12Z oleo: you need to figure out asdf
2017-09-26T18:19:13Z oleo: lol
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2017-09-26T18:19:30Z oleo: with asdf you only have systems
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2017-09-26T18:19:43Z oleo: some components will be files some modules some other systems
2017-09-26T18:19:54Z oleo: the files may contain pacakge definitions
2017-09-26T18:19:56Z z3t0: hmm okay
2017-09-26T18:20:08Z oleo: by loading systems you get the packages but there's no way to get the packages alone via asdf
2017-09-26T18:20:27Z oleo: in order todo that you have to know in which file it is and load it
2017-09-26T18:20:45Z oleo: or at least know which systems contain it as a component and load one of the supersystems
2017-09-26T18:20:48Z z3t0: it worked !
2017-09-26T18:20:50Z oleo: k
2017-09-26T18:20:51Z z3t0: haha
2017-09-26T18:21:13Z z3t0: thanks
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2017-09-26T19:08:31Z oleo: s/supersystems/systems/
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2017-09-26T19:38:53Z dxtr: how do I reinstall a package with quicklisp?
2017-09-26T19:39:15Z XachX: dxtr: reinstall?
2017-09-26T19:39:27Z XachX: Like, replacing what is there?
2017-09-26T19:39:30Z dxtr: XachX: Optimally I just want to force a rebuild
2017-09-26T19:39:43Z oleo: (quicklisp:quickload :blah :force t) ?
2017-09-26T19:39:47Z XachX: Oh. There are many ways. You could use asdf directly.
2017-09-26T19:39:54Z XachX: Quick load has no force.
2017-09-26T19:40:04Z oleo: (asdf:load-system :blah :force t) sorry
2017-09-26T19:40:05Z dxtr: How would I achieve this with asdf?
2017-09-26T19:40:05Z XachX: Deleting fasls is an option too.
2017-09-26T19:40:12Z XachX: Oleo has it.
2017-09-26T19:40:26Z dxtr: alright
2017-09-26T19:40:53Z oleo: well if you deleted some of your directories in the quicklisp branch, just do another load with quicklisp and it will redownload some stuff
2017-09-26T19:41:14Z XachX: oleo: too vague to try.
2017-09-26T19:41:25Z dxtr: My actual problem is that cl-sdl2 broke and I suspect it might be because I have updated sdl
2017-09-26T19:41:39Z dxtr: So I just wanted to rebuild it and see if that fixes it
2017-09-26T19:43:02Z dxtr: It seems like it
2017-09-26T19:43:54Z dxtr: well thanks :)
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2017-09-26T19:50:44Z White_Flame: dxtr: rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2017-09-26T19:51:10Z White_Flame: and if it's early build stuff, rm -rf ~/.slime/fasl/
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2017-09-26T19:52:54Z White_Flame: quicklisp itself doesn't hold anything but the project sources, so you don't need to erase & redownload those, unless you suspect your filesystem is corrupted or something trampled the data there
2017-09-26T19:54:55Z oleo: quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/
2017-09-26T19:54:58Z oleo: it's all there
2017-09-26T19:55:05Z oleo: i sometimes deleted some stuff
2017-09-26T19:55:51Z oleo: i instead should have learned howto register stuff and unregister....
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2017-09-26T20:16:26Z iqubic: So a macro can only consist of a single body form? Which is expected to be the backquoted replacement code?
2017-09-26T20:16:44Z dlowe: it doesn't have to be backquoted
2017-09-26T20:16:51Z dlowe: backquoting is just convenient.
2017-09-26T20:17:08Z iqubic: How does a macro work when not backquoted?
2017-09-26T20:17:17Z Shinmera: A macro can consist of any number of body forms, but it can only /return/ a single one.
2017-09-26T20:17:17Z dlowe: because lisp is made of data, not text
2017-09-26T20:17:32Z dlowe: so a macro can return any list
2017-09-26T20:17:53Z iqubic: Oh. Right you could use list and quote all the elements
2017-09-26T20:18:41Z dlowe: (defmacro infix (&rest args) (list (second args) (first args) (cddr args))
2017-09-26T20:18:44Z dlowe: )
2017-09-26T20:18:46Z dlowe: :p
2017-09-26T20:18:57Z dlowe: (infix 5 + 4) => (+ 5 4)
2017-09-26T20:19:16Z iqubic: I see.
2017-09-26T20:19:24Z dlowe: ;; TODO: make work with more than three arguments
2017-09-26T20:19:34Z iqubic: I don't want to.
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2017-09-26T20:21:11Z iqubic: Can a macro have multiple s-exps in the body, so long as it only returns a single s-exp?
2017-09-26T20:21:50Z Shinmera: Read what I said above.
2017-09-26T20:22:15Z dlowe: iqubic: yes.  It can also return a PROGN form, so you can still do multiple things from a macro
2017-09-26T20:22:27Z iqubic: I see. Thank you guys.
2017-09-26T20:24:34Z pjb: iqubic: nope, you can define macros with multiple body forms.
2017-09-26T20:24:38Z iqubic: If I quote something, it returns a symbol, right?
2017-09-26T20:25:07Z iqubic: So 'foo returns the symbol foo?
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2017-09-26T20:25:56Z Shinmera: Quote prevents evaluation, so it returns a literal.
2017-09-26T20:26:29Z pjb: (defmacro one-of ((&body body) &rest other-bodies)  `(case (random ,(1+ (length other-bodies))) (0 ,@body) ,@(let ((i 0)) (mapcar (lambda (body) `(,(incf i) ,@body)) other-bodies))))    (macroexpand-1 '(one-of ((print 'hi)) ((print 'fizz) (print 'buzz)))) #| --> (case (random 2) (0 (print 'hi)) (1 (print 'fizz) (print 'buzz))) ; t |#
2017-09-26T20:26:49Z pjb: iqubic: if you quote something it returns something.
2017-09-26T20:26:59Z iqubic: What is the difference between a symbol and a literal?
2017-09-26T20:27:07Z pjb: '42 --> 42 '(not a symbol) --> (not a symbol)
2017-09-26T20:27:24Z iqubic: pjb, that's not explaining it.
2017-09-26T20:27:26Z pjb: a symbol is a symbol; a literal is what is quoted (or self-evaluating).
2017-09-26T20:27:29Z dlowe: iqubic: remember I mentioned lisp is made of data objects and not text?
2017-09-26T20:27:34Z iqubic: Yes.
2017-09-26T20:27:43Z oleo: a symbol is an object
2017-09-26T20:27:46Z dlowe: iqubic: quoting returns the data objects passed into it
2017-09-26T20:27:52Z oleo: it has an underlying datastructure
2017-09-26T20:27:56Z dlowe: iqubic: instead of attempting to evaluate it
2017-09-26T20:28:02Z pjb: '#S(point :x 1 :y 3) --> #S(point :x 1 :y 3)
2017-09-26T20:28:22Z oleo: it is woven into the implementation at the time of it's extantiation
2017-09-26T20:28:26Z dlowe: iqubic: '(+ 1 2) => (+ 1 2)  while (+ 1 2) => 3
2017-09-26T20:28:27Z pjb: ''(+ x 1) --> '(+ x 1)
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2017-09-26T20:28:53Z iqubic: '(+ 1 2) is a list containing three symbols?
2017-09-26T20:28:55Z pjb: iqubic: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2017-09-26T20:29:00Z pjb: iqubic: nope.
2017-09-26T20:29:08Z pjb: '(+ 1 2) is a list containing one symbol and a list.
2017-09-26T20:29:22Z pjb: '(+ 1 2) is (quote (+ 1 2))  quote is a symbol  (+ 1 2) is a list.
2017-09-26T20:29:49Z dlowe: iqubic: it's a list containing three "atoms"
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2017-09-26T20:30:06Z pjb: (loop for item in ''(+ 1 2) do (format t "item: ~S is a ~S~%" item (type-of item)))
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2017-09-26T20:30:38Z pjb: (+ 1 2) is (read as) a list that contains something that depends on the *read-base*.
2017-09-26T20:30:56Z pjb: (+ 1. 2.) is a list that contains a symbol + and two fixnums 1 and 2.
2017-09-26T20:31:27Z pjb: If the *read-base* is 2. then (+ 1 2) is read as a lists containing two symbols, + and \2, and a fixnum: 1.
2017-09-26T20:42:12Z iqubic: Macros are really confusing me right now.
2017-09-26T20:43:50Z oleo: lol
2017-09-26T20:43:59Z oleo: then don't use them
2017-09-26T20:44:08Z iqubic: I won't than.
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2017-09-26T20:44:19Z oleo: they are like templates
2017-09-26T20:44:24Z oleo: templates of forms
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2017-09-26T20:45:20Z iqubic: And I'm not understanding them.
2017-09-26T20:45:34Z oleo: later on maybe
2017-09-26T20:45:47Z oleo: you don't do them until you have to
2017-09-26T20:46:08Z oleo: anyway, good night all
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2017-09-26T20:52:48Z iqubic: Well, I solved my issue. I had forgotten to unquote a variable name in my macro expansion.
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2017-09-26T21:05:47Z iqubic: Now that I have successfully created a macro, I understand how and why you use them.
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2017-09-26T21:17:53Z Fare: congrats, you're now a lisper.
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2017-09-26T21:22:51Z fe[nl]ix: iqubic: now you're in for a lifetime of disappointment
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2017-09-26T21:36:10Z iqubic: Why fe[nl]ix?
2017-09-26T21:36:30Z iqubic: I finally got my macro to work.
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2017-09-26T22:45:29Z stylewarning: fe[nl]ix: will you accept some addl features to static-vectors?
2017-09-26T22:46:07Z stylewarning: fe[nl]ix: I wrote a patch to expose a function that separates SBCL's widetag calculation from the allocation, because I actually want to allocate using something different than the standard foreign allocator
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2017-09-27T02:18:50Z z3t0: how do people generally deal with the lack of libraries for lisp? for the most part I don't have an issue but when trying to use something like opencv (computer vision) or graphics I have a lot of trouble with common lisp
2017-09-27T02:19:26Z z3t0: Some of these have c bindings so i can use cffi but often they have c++ bindings. I looked up swig but it seems that it only supports allegro common lisp
2017-09-27T02:24:54Z ebrasca: z3t0: You can write it.
2017-09-27T02:25:22Z z3t0: ebrasca: I could definitely do that but I have no idea where to start, how do I write a common lisp wrapper for a c++ library?
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2017-09-27T02:25:57Z z3t0: I did some searching before and basically was led to the conclusion that it wasn't a realistic project for a sufficiently complex project
2017-09-27T02:26:40Z ebrasca: z3t0: I have find this with google. https://github.com/BSeppke/vigracl
2017-09-27T02:26:59Z z3t0: thanks I saw that too
2017-09-27T02:27:08Z z3t0: but they use the c binding wrapper rather than c++
2017-09-27T02:27:10Z ebrasca: sbcl suport
2017-09-27T02:27:16Z z3t0: at least as far as I can tell
2017-09-27T02:28:57Z ebrasca: z3t0: Ok
2017-09-27T02:30:15Z ebrasca: z3t0: Good luck finding it.
2017-09-27T02:30:19Z z3t0: thanks
2017-09-27T02:30:35Z z3t0: i'll probably just end up using the c library
2017-09-27T02:30:35Z ebrasca: z3t0: I need to go to bed.
2017-09-27T02:30:37Z ebrasca: Bye
2017-09-27T02:30:38Z z3t0: night
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2017-09-27T03:43:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-27T03:51:10Z jmercouris: Good morning!
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2017-09-27T04:52:57Z myrkraverk: z3t0: I've made a wrapper for a C++ library, by first making a C wrapper.
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2017-09-27T05:03:11Z pillton: You can also use interprocess communication.
2017-09-27T05:04:29Z beach: I think that's a much better idea.
2017-09-27T05:05:08Z Zhivago: The nice thing is that you can then put it on another machine.
2017-09-27T05:05:47Z beach: That too.
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2017-09-27T05:06:40Z z3t0: beach: thanks i was thinking along the same lines
2017-09-27T05:06:56Z z3t0: I just try and find "pure lisp" methods where possible
2017-09-27T05:07:19Z pillton: Or you could compile the C++ library to web assembly and interpret the webassembly in common lisp.
2017-09-27T05:07:26Z beach: z3t0: I totally agree.  But then, sometimes you have to bite the bullet and write a library.
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2017-09-27T05:11:02Z z3t0: pillton: please dont even hahah
2017-09-27T05:12:55Z beach: z3t0: I don't think that was a joke.  I think that must be what froggey does in order to run C code in Mezzano.  No?
2017-09-27T05:13:04Z z3t0: oh?
2017-09-27T05:13:12Z z3t0: I thought we were making a stab at js
2017-09-27T05:13:23Z z3t0: and their new framewokr every day ecosystem
2017-09-27T05:13:58Z pillton: asm.js is not WebAssembly.
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2017-09-27T05:15:07Z pillton: I wasn't joking. It is a better strategy long term in my opinion. CFFI allows the foreign function to crash the lisp process.
2017-09-27T05:17:20Z aeth: If you don't care at all about performance, it wouldn't be that hard to compile C to Lisp, would it?
2017-09-27T05:18:15Z aeth: You wouldn't benefit from the optimizing compilers (unless you write a CL backend for LLVM somehow?) but it would probably beat WASM.
2017-09-27T05:18:53Z aeth: I think that's what Mezzano does, although I'm not sure how. C is much easier than C++, though, unless you're using LLVM.
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2017-09-27T05:24:40Z White_Flame: the problem is that too many things rely on C undefined behavior that automated translation to another safer language wouldn't respond the right way
2017-09-27T05:24:55Z aeth: I'm guessing you'd be dealing with giant byte arrays. Then the question is if you can somewhat efficiently deal with e.g. floating point operations.
2017-09-27T05:26:22Z aeth: so if your giant pile of bytes is supposed to deal with floating point, how do you do foo.x + foo.y, which becomes 1.0f + 2.5f?
2017-09-27T05:28:08Z pillton: aeth: ieee-floats:encode-float32
2017-09-27T05:28:25Z aeth: I think that ties in with safety. (floating-point-to-byte (+ (byte-to-floating-point x) (byte-to-floating-point y))) isn't going to be fast, but that isn't an issue in C where you can do things like fast inverse square root. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
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2017-09-27T05:29:27Z aeth: I think you would need implementation-level support to optimize away common special cases like floating point if you really wanted to do CFFI that way.
2017-09-27T05:30:23Z aeth: But done improperly, you just go ahead and lose safety.
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2017-09-27T05:32:38Z aeth: If someone did the LLVM IR to CL approach, I'd be interested in seeing them run Clasp on it, though.
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2017-09-27T06:24:37Z pjb: aeth: theorically, it's not hard to compile C to Lisp.  In practice, it only represents a lot of work.  I started such a compiler.  I have the pre-processor implemented.  The size of the work comes from the fact that you want not just "a" C compiler, but you actually need a compiler with all the syntax and extensions supported by gcc/clang.  Because you don't want to have to "port" your libraries, you want them to just run as-they
2017-09-27T06:24:37Z pjb: in your lisp image.
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2017-09-27T06:25:49Z pjb: Perhaps I should do a kickstarter to finance the development of this C-to-Lisp compiler…  I'd say it'd cost 15000 to 30000 euro.
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2017-09-27T06:27:00Z White_Flame: I think it might be easier to take C source + debug information + a compiled library, and "transpile" the x86 code to lisp image compatible code
2017-09-27T06:27:17Z White_Flame: keeping the linkages back to the source for debugging/stepping
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2017-09-27T06:31:58Z pjb: White_Flame: this is an alternative.  Or you could just use clasp.
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2017-09-27T06:33:01Z pjb: White_Flame: the thing is that it may be harder to restore source-level information from the binary.
2017-09-27T06:34:21Z pjb: The point here is that we want to use C libraries in a controlled environment.  So compiling from C source to the controlled lisp VM environment, or transpiling from a native code that is full of uncontrolled pointer action, to a controlled lisp VM environment.  The later doesn't sound the easy way.
2017-09-27T06:35:32Z Shinmera: Didn't Froggey already do a thing that runs LLVM IR in portable Lisp?
2017-09-27T06:36:29Z pillton: https://github.com/froggey/Iota
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2017-09-27T06:37:08Z pjb: I didn't know.  We'll have to try it.
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2017-09-27T06:40:26Z Shinmera: He ran DOOM in Mezzano using that, so it should be fairly complete.
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2017-09-27T06:52:49Z pillton: I wonder how "printf" works in the example. Does it write to *standard-output*?
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2017-09-27T06:56:51Z Shinmera: I especially wonder how he handled the renderbuffer integration for Mezzano.
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2017-09-27T07:01:58Z |3b|: looks like it sets first 3 FDs to *standard-input* *standard-output* *error-output*, and has a customized SDL on c side for graphics (that can write to mezzano or lispbuilder-sdl on lisp side)
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2017-09-27T07:09:10Z pjb: pillton: for "standard" C functions, you can either forward to libc, or implement them in lisp.  From the TODO, I'd guess he calls libc.
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2017-09-27T08:15:11Z pillton: |3b| pjb: Thanks.
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2017-09-27T12:51:10Z dlowe: There's a C-to-lisp "translator", but it really is just a simple compiler to a C VM.
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2017-09-27T12:51:33Z dlowe: I was disappointed.
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2017-09-27T13:35:00Z z3t0: hi!
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2017-09-27T13:42:03Z beach: Hello z3t0.
2017-09-27T13:44:44Z z3t0: I have a question about structs and a particular function
2017-09-27T13:44:56Z z3t0: I am using the search function from the example at https://github.com/rpav/spatial-trees/blob/master/tutorial.lisp
2017-09-27T13:45:13Z z3t0: Except my struct has an x,y and data component
2017-09-27T13:45:33Z z3t0: so now when I do (search (p x y ) tree) it complains that I do not have the third argument for the p
2017-09-27T13:45:53Z z3t0: but the thing is I am associating that point to data, so I'm not really sure how the search is supposed to work
2017-09-27T13:46:12Z Bike: Can you do (p x y) on its own?
2017-09-27T13:47:31Z z3t0: hmm I'm trying but for some reason it is saying y is unbound
2017-09-27T13:47:54Z z3t0: doing (p x y z) works
2017-09-27T13:47:56Z z3t0: where z is data
2017-09-27T13:48:18Z z3t0: adding &optional worked
2017-09-27T13:49:24Z z3t0: Figured it out thank you
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2017-09-27T13:56:34Z z3t0: how does one access a slot within a struct
2017-09-27T13:57:23Z Shinmera: (structname-slotname struct-instance)
2017-09-27T13:57:45Z Shinmera: So in your case P-X, and P-Y.
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2017-09-27T13:59:11Z z3t0: Ah, so then those functions P-X and P-Y are automatically created for me?
2017-09-27T13:59:32Z z3t0: that's really neat
2017-09-27T13:59:39Z Shinmera: defstruct does that, yes.
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2017-09-27T14:00:25Z Shinmera: clhs defstruct
2017-09-27T14:00:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2017-09-27T14:00:37Z z3t0: I trie reading the docs but I often have trouble actually understanding
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2017-09-27T14:01:14Z Shinmera: The example section at the end is usually a bit more informative for beginners.
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2017-09-27T14:11:12Z edgar-rft: z3t0, the full story about CL structures is here <https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node168.html>
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2017-09-27T16:46:54Z stylewarning: This was a very nice page: https://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html#sec-2-5
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2017-09-27T16:54:01Z stylewarning: I wish there was more material like this out there
2017-09-27T16:54:51Z Bike: what other optimizations are you interested in?
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2017-09-27T18:12:50Z drmeister: Occasionally I need to write a function that runs through a list and collects another list based on some test - but I want the resulting list to keep the order of the input list.
2017-09-27T18:13:41Z drmeister: I can't use LOOP or a lot of other fancy Common Lisp functions because I'm using this early in Clasp's bootstrapping process and they aren't available yet.   I need to work in "pidgin Common Lisp"
2017-09-27T18:13:50Z drmeister: So I write something like this:
2017-09-27T18:13:57Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0PU4wEhK/
2017-09-27T18:14:14Z drmeister: I do have basic things like NREVERSE
2017-09-27T18:14:37Z drmeister: But it seems kind of a waste of time to build a list backwards and then reverse it - is it?
2017-09-27T18:15:28Z drmeister: I can do this...    but it requires me to cons an extra cell - that seems wasteful.
2017-09-27T18:15:30Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/sRMZ0uVJ/
2017-09-27T18:16:18Z Xach: drmeister: build backwards and reverse is a very common idiom
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2017-09-27T18:20:13Z drmeister: Ok.   I can do it in C++ but I have to work with raw pointers.
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2017-09-27T18:32:16Z alandipert: another option is macroexpand loop, that's how i originally figured out how it did it myself. how it holds the tail etc
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2017-09-27T18:47:17Z Xach: drmeister: i have a clasp thing for you to try sometime
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2017-09-27T18:47:44Z Xach: drmeister: quicklisp will soon use openpgp and sha digests to verify downloads. the arithmetic can be slow, depending on implementation.
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2017-09-27T18:48:52Z Xach: https://www.quicklisp.org/tmp/quicklisp-secure.lisp (and .asc) will let you try it out. don't use it on an existing installation, though.
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2017-09-27T19:10:06Z drmeister: Understood
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2017-09-27T19:17:00Z drmeister: I'd do it now but I'm rebuilding everything.
2017-09-27T19:17:19Z z3t0_: why dos (cdr '(1 2)) give (2) instead of 2
2017-09-27T19:17:24Z z3t0_: does*
2017-09-27T19:18:01Z drmeister: Xach: The plan we talked about - it's still the plan.   I've been in the weeds for a couple of weeks implementing beach's fast generic function approach.   I have it working now and hopefully can move forward now.
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2017-09-27T19:22:23Z shrdlu68: z3t0_: (cdr '(1 . 2))
2017-09-27T19:22:53Z edgar-rft: z3t0_, because '(1 2) is '(1 . (2 . nil)), so the cdr of '(1 2) is (2 . nil) = (2)
2017-09-27T19:23:43Z z3t0_: Ah i see
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2017-09-27T19:38:45Z z3t0_: how do i return when inside an if ?
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2017-09-27T19:39:13Z z3t0_: I have (if (p) (x) (y)) where I want to return y if p is not true
2017-09-27T19:39:21Z Bike: that's fine.
2017-09-27T19:39:24Z dlowe: that pretty much happens right there
2017-09-27T19:39:35Z z3t0_: but theres an error
2017-09-27T19:39:36Z z3t0_: one second
2017-09-27T19:39:55Z z3t0_: it says undefined function y
2017-09-27T19:40:04Z dlowe: so don't call it like a function
2017-09-27T19:40:04Z z3t0_: where y is just a variable I need to return
2017-09-27T19:40:11Z dlowe: just put y there
2017-09-27T19:40:13Z iqubic: Try removing the parens around y
2017-09-27T19:40:20Z z3t0_: ah okay thanks
2017-09-27T19:42:10Z Bike: when you see an error message it's important to take it seriously and directly, unless you know that something else (like if, here) is involved.
2017-09-27T19:42:55Z z3t0_: I try to but a lot of the time i'm not sure what exactly is the issue, though I am definitely getting beter at it
2017-09-27T19:45:49Z Bike: in this case you know, unless your implementation is completely blinkered, that the implementation interpreted something as a call to Y, but could not find a function called that
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2017-09-27T20:23:13Z drmeister: Xach: I'm having trouble downloading that link https://www.quicklisp.org/tmp/quicklisp-secure.lisp
2017-09-27T20:23:26Z drmeister: My browser says 404
2017-09-27T20:23:32Z drmeister: wget gives me this...
2017-09-27T20:23:34Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fVXMKPsg/
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2017-09-27T20:36:15Z Xach: hmm
2017-09-27T20:36:44Z Xach: drmeister: oops, it is just quicklisp.lisp
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2017-09-27T21:00:54Z drmeister: Xach: So https://www.quicklisp.org/tmp/quicklisp.lisp?
2017-09-27T21:01:07Z Xach: drmeister: yes
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2017-09-27T21:11:56Z drmeister: Xach: I ran into a problem - but it may be a clasp problem - we are working on specialized arrays at the moment.
2017-09-27T21:12:06Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0XconMwb/
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2017-09-27T21:30:03Z drmeister: The backtrace isn't helpful - it's in INSTALL
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2017-09-27T21:40:15Z drmeister: How does call-method work? I read the clhs entry but fail to understand. Where are the bindings for the method arguments?
2017-09-27T21:40:50Z drmeister: If anyone has a way to understand it - I’d love to hear it
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2017-09-27T21:45:27Z Bicyclidine: call-method is a macro
2017-09-27T21:45:49Z Bicyclidine: so it can expand into whatever kind of call
2017-09-27T21:47:04Z Bicyclidine: er, no, that's not even the way to think of it
2017-09-27T21:47:27Z Bicyclidine: call-method is only used in the result of compute-effective-method; that result sort of describes a function
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2017-09-27T21:49:58Z Bicyclidine: for example, if you had an effective method that was just (call-method #<some method> nil) the effective method could just be that method's method function
2017-09-27T21:50:08Z Bicyclidine: so you don't need to know about arguments at this level exactly.
2017-09-27T21:50:28Z drmeister: Is it supposed to run in a lexical environment where the bindings of the method arguments exist?
2017-09-27T21:50:56Z Bicyclidine: it doesn't have to "run" at all
2017-09-27T21:51:35Z Bicyclidine: but that would be one way it could be done.
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2017-09-27T21:54:21Z razzy: hello, how unsafe generally is, if random code want to unlock packages when running.
2017-09-27T21:54:47Z razzy: *random code from github.
2017-09-27T21:57:54Z Bicyclidine: package locks are more of a foot-shooting-avoidance thing than a security thing
2017-09-27T21:59:03Z White_Flame: it only mungs running code, doesn't hack your system or whatever.  Any code you run already has access to your user's file system
2017-09-27T21:59:11Z razzy: Bicyclidine: foot-shooting is very unsafe, in my opinion.
2017-09-27T22:00:15Z Bicyclidine: i can't recommend using guns in such a way
2017-09-27T22:00:16Z razzy: White_Flame: so, it does not pernamently change packages.
2017-09-27T22:00:27Z Bicyclidine: no it does
2017-09-27T22:00:30Z White_Flame: a package is a symbol namespace in a running lisp
2017-09-27T22:00:32Z Bicyclidine: or rather the bindings and such of symbols in them
2017-09-27T22:00:45Z White_Flame: it's as "permanent" as your lisp image is
2017-09-27T22:01:26Z Bicyclidine: what a package lock does is ban any of these actions http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm on certain packages
2017-09-27T22:01:34Z Bicyclidine: so if the package is unlocked, you can do those things
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2017-09-27T22:03:50Z razzy: White_Flame: imho i understand package namespace thing.
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2017-09-27T22:06:33Z razzy: White_Flame: do i assume correctly that lisp image lives in ram, and do not effect libraries on disk? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/480083/what-is-a-lisp-image
2017-09-27T22:06:48Z White_Flame: a lisp image can be snapshotted to disk and continued
2017-09-27T22:07:00Z White_Flame: but yeah, it's the ephemeral running state of your Lisp system
2017-09-27T22:07:05Z razzy: White_Flame: thank you
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2017-09-27T22:07:46Z White_Flame: lisp executables are made by snapshotting an image and telling it what the startup function should be, for instance
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2017-09-27T22:08:49Z razzy: cool
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2017-09-27T22:11:10Z emaczen``: Are there any CL apis for controlling webcams?
2017-09-27T22:13:06Z pjb: drmeister: IMO, the fact that CALL-METHOD (and CALL-NEXT-METHOD, by default) don't take the arguments, is to let implementations reuse the stack-frame.  The arguments are already on the stack, as parameters to the generic function.  CALL-METHOD could be implemented as a JUMP (with perhaps some adjustment of the stack).  Methods could definitely use a different protocol than normal functions, for example, taking a pointer to the st
2017-09-27T22:13:06Z pjb: frame of the generic function, to avoid copying the arguments again and again at each call-next-method.
2017-09-27T22:15:23Z pjb: razzy: you should probably perform a code review to see if anything nefarious is done, but usually, patching system packages is done very conservatively.  In general, systems do it for good reasons, such as eg. CLIM (or McCLIM) patching defclass and defmethod.
2017-09-27T22:15:25Z Bike: the nonportable part of portable common loops was a way to jump, so, sounds plausible to me
2017-09-27T22:16:02Z pjb: emaczen``: usually, webcams are controlled thru the web, so HTTP GET or POST…  drakma?
2017-09-27T22:16:47Z drmeister: pjb: That is very helpful - thank you.
2017-09-27T22:16:52Z emaczen``: pjb: ugghh I guess I'll be using parenscript...
2017-09-27T22:17:05Z emaczen``: pjb: and a bunch of web crap
2017-09-27T22:17:25Z drmeister: Bike: The new primop for calling methods that you implemented - is it related to CALL-METHOD?
2017-09-27T22:17:48Z Bike: the va list bind? not really
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2017-09-27T22:18:18Z Bike: also, thinking, the jump thing wouldn't work if you had any funny call-next-methods, not that that's common
2017-09-27T22:18:46Z drmeister: I was hoping they would tie in together somehow.
2017-09-27T22:19:23Z Bike: well, bind-va-list is to let method functions take only two arguments, and the arguments method functions take is closely related to call-method obviously
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2017-09-27T22:26:40Z razzy: pjb: I do not know, what you wanted to tell me. Is problem on my side? (what i understand is "everybody should perform code reviews, nobody really does")
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2017-09-27T22:41:51Z pjb: razzy: "how unsafe generally is, if random code want to unlock packages when running."  What is "unsafe"?  What is "random code"?
2017-09-27T22:44:21Z pjb: razzy: the problem is where you want it to be.  You may make the choice of wanting to keep a pristine image, where the standard packages are not patched.  Then if you want at the same time use a library that needs to modify a standard package, the problem may be with you.  If you want to use a library that modifies a standard package for spurious reasons, then the problem may be with that library.  But perhaps the problem is with 
2017-09-27T22:44:21Z pjb: original want to keep the pristine image.  Why do you care if your system packages are patched or not?  Do you trust those libraries or not? (again problem with you, or problem with the libraries)?
2017-09-27T22:45:14Z pjb: Performing the code review would help you determine if the library is trustworthy, if it does what it says it does and what you expect it to do, and if you agree with what it does or not.
2017-09-27T22:45:25Z pjb: razzy: So don't care about nobody, do your own code reviews!
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2017-09-27T22:47:50Z pillton: stylewarning Zhivago: Here is one of the problems which motivated me to implement the template-function system. https://github.com/markcox80/template-function/wiki/Motivating-the-Template-Function-System
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2017-09-27T23:24:08Z jmercouris: how can I get a mailing list for my lisp project?
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2017-09-27T23:25:37Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: I think at common-lisp.net
2017-09-27T23:26:09Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: here https://common-lisp.net/project-intro/?
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2017-09-27T23:28:36Z shrdlu68: Yep, I think you've found it. I've only one unused project though, so I've never gone through with the whole thing, perhaps someone eho has can chip in.
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2017-09-27T23:45:52Z sjl: if anyone feels like reviewing code, I took a stab at writing when-let, when-let*, if-let, and if-let* macros that work properly with declarations:
2017-09-27T23:45:54Z sjl: https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/5e5e2b6e0903f11623d74dc28b34a4d12e439665/losh.lisp#L587-L813
2017-09-27T23:46:14Z sjl: it's not pretty, but I think it should do the right thing.  there are probably some corner cases I haven't thought of though
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2017-09-27T23:54:24Z sjl: might actually be able to do the if-'s with a nested pair of (block x (block y ...)), instead of using tagbody, now that I'm thinking about it
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2017-09-28T02:17:25Z stylewarning: pillton: thanks for the write-up
2017-09-28T02:17:34Z stylewarning: sjl: a quick look leads me to believe it's ok
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2017-09-28T02:39:21Z z3t0: How can I get in touch with local lisp groups?
2017-09-28T02:39:27Z z3t0: I'm in Canada if that helps
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2017-09-28T02:40:41Z jmercouris: z3t0: maybe meetup.com?
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2017-09-28T02:40:54Z z3t0: I tried that but it seems there arent any lisper groups where I am :(
2017-09-28T02:41:02Z pjb: z3t0: then create it!
2017-09-28T02:41:12Z z3t0: DEFINITELY!
2017-09-28T02:41:17Z jmercouris: there's not many lisp programmers in general, did you search for something like clojure? scala etc?
2017-09-28T02:41:20Z z3t0: but I'm a compelete beginner haha
2017-09-28T02:41:31Z z3t0: I don't think I'm in any position to teach
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2017-09-28T02:41:46Z jmercouris: z3t0: You don't have to teach
2017-09-28T02:41:50Z z3t0: jmercouris: yeah I found a functional programmers group but it seems they don't really meet very often
2017-09-28T02:41:55Z pjb: You just need other interested people.
2017-09-28T02:41:58Z z3t0: jmercouris: but then what kind of things would we do
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2017-09-28T02:42:19Z pjb: We would gather together, and share.
2017-09-28T02:42:33Z pjb: Show off your lisp code, help each other, etc.
2017-09-28T02:42:48Z pjb: Basically, what we do here, but with personal contact and informal communication.
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2017-09-28T02:43:34Z pjb: And if you have a newbie who doesn't understand something, instead of saying f*ck, you can hit him on the head to help it enter his brains…
2017-09-28T02:43:39Z pjb: So it's a big advantage :-)
2017-09-28T02:43:44Z jmercouris: z3t0: yeah, but as pjb told me very firmly on ECL, he is NOT american
2017-09-28T02:44:01Z jmercouris: therefore he wouldn't participate in your Canadian meetup
2017-09-28T02:44:24Z z3t0: Alright thats a lot of good ideas haha
2017-09-28T02:44:33Z z3t0: I'll reach out and try to find all the secretive lispers
2017-09-28T02:44:44Z jmercouris: I don't think you'll find many
2017-09-28T02:44:48Z jmercouris: maybe try organizing an emacs meetup
2017-09-28T02:44:52Z z3t0: Yeah I'm gonna have to do some converting
2017-09-28T02:45:00Z z3t0: Ah yeah i'll try that too thanks
2017-09-28T02:45:01Z jmercouris: don't think of it as converting
2017-09-28T02:45:05Z pjb: z3t0: http://catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html  https://thebuddhafultao.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/some-great-koans/
2017-09-28T02:45:10Z jmercouris: have you seen the netflix special accidental courtesy?
2017-09-28T02:45:16Z jmercouris: ask the same of other programmers
2017-09-28T02:45:19Z z3t0: i havent
2017-09-28T02:45:23Z jmercouris: "how can you hate lisp when you've never even programmed in lisp?"
2017-09-28T02:45:28Z z3t0: ah nice
2017-09-28T02:45:32Z z3t0: PARAENTEHREHISISI
2017-09-28T02:45:32Z jmercouris: on a serious note, it's a great documentary, it's about racial discrimination etc
2017-09-28T02:45:52Z jmercouris: Yeah but parens aren't really the issue here, if you indent it's just like any other language
2017-09-28T02:45:57Z jmercouris: I don't understand that argument at all
2017-09-28T02:46:14Z jmercouris: I guess for like the first month of lisp I would get tripped up with parenthesis, but it never happens anymoe
2017-09-28T02:46:30Z z3t0: No I totally agree
2017-09-28T02:46:35Z z3t0: if anything parens help a lot
2017-09-28T02:46:44Z z3t0: but for new people they just look for anything unfamiliar
2017-09-28T02:46:47Z pjb: Yes, don't necessarily restrict yourself to CL.  Allow all lisps (scheme, clojure, emacs lisp, etc) in addition to CL.
2017-09-28T02:47:20Z jmercouris: pjb: I don't get the drescher joke, the other ones are pretty funny though
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2017-09-28T02:48:00Z pjb: jmercouris: happiness is not something that can be attained by testing.
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2017-09-28T02:48:50Z pjb: jmercouris: it's really very profund.  You can watch the finger and understand that testing only demonstrates the presence of bugs, never their absence.
2017-09-28T02:49:15Z pjb: jmercouris: then there's the whole question of specifications…
2017-09-28T02:49:20Z jmercouris: pjb: i just had a moment of realization
2017-09-28T02:49:32Z jmercouris: testing only demonstrates the presence of bugs, man that is so true
2017-09-28T02:49:52Z pjb: And about the first one, I've been actor of one such occurence.
2017-09-28T02:49:56Z jmercouris: every day new enlightment on #lisp
2017-09-28T02:50:20Z jmercouris: is there something similar to ,faith in emacs for #lisp?
2017-09-28T02:51:26Z pjb: When I was teenager, we had a mini-computer at school.  The boot procedure involved loading into memory the boot program.  It was a few instructions to store and then to run.  A teacher would try to boot it and couldn't because he just didn't understand the procedure, but only tried to repeat it mechanically.  I had to do it for him and it booted without any problem.
2017-09-28T02:51:44Z pjb: jmercouris: not really.  There's enough of that in #lisp.
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2017-09-28T02:51:46Z pjb: jmercouris: not really.  There's enough of that in #emacs.
2017-09-28T02:52:19Z z3t0: haha
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2017-09-28T02:52:39Z jmercouris: I'm not sure I understand the deeper meaning of the 1st one
2017-09-28T02:52:43Z jmercouris: is it just "did you try restarting it?"
2017-09-28T02:54:31Z pjb: No.  You really need to undestand it.
2017-09-28T02:54:55Z pjb: cf. http://catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
2017-09-28T02:55:24Z pjb: The problem is that in programming, understanding need to be multi-layered.
2017-09-28T02:55:55Z pjb: Have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/139933
2017-09-28T02:56:15Z z3t0: how do i write arbritrary data to a file
2017-09-28T02:56:32Z z3t0: for example I have  struct that is (defstruct p (x y data))
2017-09-28T02:56:33Z pjb: jmercouris: or just follow a lecture about thermodynamic systems…
2017-09-28T02:56:44Z z3t0: how would I write an instance of that to a file
2017-09-28T02:57:15Z jmercouris: pjb: that's a hilarious switch story
2017-09-28T02:57:44Z jmercouris: I should get one of those for my laptop
2017-09-28T02:58:12Z pjb: z3t0: (defstruct p x y data)  (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents "foo") (make-p :x 1 :y 2 :data "foo"))
2017-09-28T02:58:18Z pjb: this is what I would do.
2017-09-28T02:58:37Z z3t0: hmm
2017-09-28T02:58:50Z z3t0: is it not possible to just write the data and set the element type to unsigned 8
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2017-09-28T02:59:16Z pjb: jmercouris: the only known closed thermodynamic system (and even, we're not sure 100%, there are theories of leaks between parallel universes), is the WHOLE universe!
2017-09-28T02:59:35Z pjb: z3t0: nope. You would have to serialize/deserialize binary data.
2017-09-28T02:59:36Z jmercouris: pjb: but what does this have to do with the "restarting" story?
2017-09-28T02:59:56Z pjb: z3t0: lisp only provides textual serialization/deserialization with PRINT and READ (assuming you set *print-readably* to true).
2017-09-28T03:00:07Z z3t0: ah okay thanks
2017-09-28T03:01:35Z jmercouris: pjb: very late at night in europe no?
2017-09-28T03:02:45Z pjb: jmercouris: or early morning: 05:04 http://www.hacker-dictionary.com/terms/bogon http://www.hacker-dictionary.com/terms/bogon-flux
2017-09-28T03:03:15Z z3t0: pjb: I think i'll use https://github.com/conspack/cl-conspack
2017-09-28T03:03:26Z pjb: z3t0: you can use libraries to serialize to various binary formats, such as ASN.1; but there's no obvious gain to be obtained. It's a question of specifiations.
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2017-09-28T03:04:03Z pjb: eg. asinine: https://github.com/informatimago/asinine
2017-09-28T03:04:40Z pjb: well, https://github.com/fjames86/asinine is the main.
2017-09-28T03:07:46Z z3t0: why is it so hard to find a lisper haha
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2017-09-28T03:10:06Z z3t0: what does #(1 2 2) represent a vector?
2017-09-28T03:10:35Z basket: yes
2017-09-28T03:11:10Z z3t0: alright thanks
2017-09-28T03:11:23Z z3t0: I am going to go to bed now, night
2017-09-28T03:11:34Z basket: Good night
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2017-09-28T03:17:38Z jmercouris: I still don't have a good idea for a testing framework in lisp :\
2017-09-28T03:17:47Z jmercouris: I got a lot of reccomendations last time, but not sure what I should use
2017-09-28T03:17:53Z malice: anything
2017-09-28T03:18:19Z malice: it does not matter that much
2017-09-28T03:18:23Z malice: you just need to get your tests done
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2017-09-28T03:18:30Z malice: and you can change it if you don't like it later on
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2017-09-28T03:34:29Z pjb: jmercouris: the features of a testing framework will depend on what you have to test.  Once upon a time, I implemented a testing framework in emacs lisp, since the tests I had to write involved generating emails, sending them, and receiving them, and processing the received emails and the MTA logs. (AFAIK, no existing CL testing framework would be able to help for those tests).
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2017-09-28T03:35:27Z pjb: jmercouris: currently I use my own simple-test testing framework.  You may be satisfied by any other testing framework.  Or you may just write: (defun test/foo () (assert (foo-this (make-foo))) (assert (foo-that (process-foo (make-foo)))) :success)  and call (test/foo) to run your tests!
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2017-09-28T05:46:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-09-28T12:58:38Z dlowe: I heard some more details on that switch story.  Apparently there was a big capacitor which took a few seconds to discharg in order for the system to fully power down.
2017-09-28T12:59:16Z dlowe: so power cycling it too fast would do nothing
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2017-09-28T13:15:23Z jdz: dlowe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan#Enlightenment
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2017-09-28T13:15:56Z jdz: Although it does not include the explanation...
2017-09-28T13:16:00Z dlowe: yes, that one.
2017-09-28T13:16:22Z dlowe: It may be better without the explanation :)
2017-09-28T13:16:57Z jdz: Yeah, a magic trick loses its magic once explained.
2017-09-28T13:17:06Z beach: minion: memo for Fare: You are late!
2017-09-28T13:17:06Z beach: minion: Are you OK?
2017-09-28T13:17:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-09-28T13:17:07Z minion: no
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2017-09-28T13:17:37Z jdz: So much for AI taking over the world.
2017-09-28T13:18:21Z dlowe: oh, it's not taking over the world.
2017-09-28T13:18:32Z dlowe: It's helping AI owners take over the world.
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2017-09-28T13:20:09Z jdz: Ouch.
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2017-09-28T13:21:36Z Fare: beach: hi
2017-09-28T13:21:36Z minion: Fare, memo from beach: You are late!
2017-09-28T13:21:42Z Fare: beach: yes I am :-(
2017-09-28T13:21:56Z Fare: I didn't plan properly and got stuck in the subway
2017-09-28T13:22:06Z Fare: :-( :-(
2017-09-28T13:22:13Z beach: Shall we keep the discussion here in case it is of general interest?
2017-09-28T13:22:43Z Fare: yes
2017-09-28T13:23:05Z Fare: So I adopted this up and coming Scheme implementation, Gerbil
2017-09-28T13:23:26Z Fare: and I'd like to add all/most of the value of CL to it
2017-09-28T13:23:30Z Fare: including, notably, CLOS
2017-09-28T13:23:46Z beach: OK.
2017-09-28T13:24:22Z Fare: Gerbil currently has some wimpy object system, and either single dispatch or quite expensive multiple dispatch, and none of the rest of CLOS.
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2017-09-28T13:24:36Z beach: I see.
2017-09-28T13:25:40Z Fare: I'm wondering how much of your code and/or ideas could be leveraged
2017-09-28T13:26:18Z beach: Well, the dispatch technique I use has been tried a second time, in Clasp.
2017-09-28T13:26:19Z Fare: in implementing a CLOS-like system for Gerbil, if possible efficiently.
2017-09-28T13:26:28Z beach: And a third time, actually, in SBCL.
2017-09-28T13:26:36Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-28T13:26:56Z Fare: nice. Did SBCL get measurably faster that way?
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2017-09-28T13:27:15Z Shinmera: I don't think that one was ever finished, yeah?
2017-09-28T13:27:22Z beach: Well, it is not in the main code base, but yes, it is significantly faster.
2017-09-28T13:28:15Z beach: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/benchmark-1.png
2017-09-28T13:28:35Z beach: I don't know exactly what was measured.
2017-09-28T13:29:33Z Fare: is there a one-stop-shop to all your articles on implementing CL?
2017-09-28T13:29:53Z beach: I think I promised to do that, but then forgot.
2017-09-28T13:30:39Z Fare: did the implementation require going underneath the level of Lisp primitives to achieve performance?
2017-09-28T13:30:55Z beach: Fare: The rest of SICL CLOS is pretty standard.  I use a two word header with a reference to the class metaobject and a reference to the slot vector (that I call a "rack").
2017-09-28T13:31:21Z beach: No, the generic dispatch function is compiled by the ordinary Common Lisp compiler.
2017-09-28T13:31:24Z Fare: is the term rack the one used in AMOP ?
2017-09-28T13:31:43Z beach: I was unaware that the AMOP used that term.
2017-09-28T13:31:49Z Shinmera: Fare: At least https://www.google.ch/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=metamodular.com&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=pdf works reasonably well for getting his articles.
2017-09-28T13:31:49Z beach: I think I made it up.
2017-09-28T13:31:54Z Fare: ok
2017-09-28T13:32:47Z beach: I don't call it a slot vector because I use it for objects other than standard instances as well, such as arrays.
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2017-09-28T13:33:27Z Fare: ok
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2017-09-28T13:35:24Z Fare: now, apart from CLOS, which are the main semantic things you'd miss when going to Scheme? (Let's put syntactic issues like Lisp-1-ness and low-level macro style aside)
2017-09-28T13:35:48Z beach: Tough question.
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2017-09-28T13:36:10Z Fare: (I don't mean that syntax doesn't matter, but I'd make that a separate exercise)
2017-09-28T13:36:13Z beach: The package system comes to mind.
2017-09-28T13:36:33Z beach: Conditions and restarts.
2017-09-28T13:36:45Z Fare: what do you *like* about the package system? (Gerbil has a module system in the style of PLT Racket)
2017-09-28T13:37:06Z beach: OK that might do.  I have no experience with it.
2017-09-28T13:37:36Z scymtym: beach: Fare: the implementation measured in that benchmark uses a decision procedure consisting of conditions and function calls. the "functions" are internal to SBCL and are in some cases actually VOPs. the decision procedure also relies on deeply implementation specific properties such as layouts not moving in memory. finally, SBCL does not use general instances and racks, which allows saving one memory reference compa
2017-09-28T13:37:38Z Shinmera: I assume he likes having packages over not having any at all like Elisp.
2017-09-28T13:37:55Z scymtym: the implementation is also unfinished, like Shinmera said
2017-09-28T13:38:18Z dlowe: Fare: if you would have a CL-like package system, make local package nicknames baked in from the start
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2017-09-28T13:39:03Z dlowe: and use them aggressively by having long canonical package names imported as short names
2017-09-28T13:39:11Z beach: Fare: I have always thought that both a package system and a module system are needed.  SICL has a module system in the form of first-class global environments (another paper).
2017-09-28T13:39:24Z Fare: I know that I *like* the fact that in CL there is a decompilable path for most data from global state, though the pathspace is a flat variable namespace and doesn't actually reach *everything* (i.e. no name for data in a closure).
2017-09-28T13:40:21Z Fare: dlowe: I'm trying to avoid CL-like packages, but yes, easy nicknames are probably needed.
2017-09-28T13:41:00Z beach: So how does the Gerbil module system map names to objects?
2017-09-28T13:41:11Z beach: Does it look it up at runtime?
2017-09-28T13:41:22Z Fare: also right now, there is a low-level notion of packages in gerbil, but it's actually semantically flat despite package names being hierarchical
2017-09-28T13:42:01Z Fare: beach: in Gerbil as in PLT, modules are compile-time namespaces.
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2017-09-28T13:42:54Z beach: Still, there has to be some kind of indirection between a name and its data at run-time.
2017-09-28T13:42:56Z Fare: but unlike in PLT, they also map into low-level module names a bit akin to CL packages.
2017-09-28T13:43:52Z Fare: most programs only deal with names above the abstraction level that does alpha-conversion for macros
2017-09-28T13:44:51Z beach: OK, let me ask it this way then: What machine instructions are involved in making a function call such as (F).
2017-09-28T13:44:53Z beach: ?
2017-09-28T13:44:58Z Fare: if you go low-level, you have expanded low-level symbols that include gensym numbering and map to mutable cells.
2017-09-28T13:45:10Z beach: I see.
2017-09-28T13:45:12Z beach: Thanks.
2017-09-28T13:45:22Z Fare: I'm not exactly sure how things go for those cells when you do runtime code loading
2017-09-28T13:45:28Z Fare: I'd have to ask vyzo
2017-09-28T13:45:43Z Fare: I can see so many things go wrong.
2017-09-28T13:46:19Z Fare: things are probably made more complicated because of the interaction between interpreter and compiler... sigh.
2017-09-28T13:46:33Z Fare: So many things I don't understand about the guts of the system.
2017-09-28T13:46:37Z beach: In SICL, I use ordinary CONS cells that are stored in the environment (or module if you like).  And when code is loaded from FASL, or when it is compiled by COMPILE, there is a "link" phase that associates the code with a particular environment.
2017-09-28T13:48:22Z Fare: how do you deal with gensyms?
2017-09-28T13:48:33Z beach: In no particular way.
2017-09-28T13:48:38Z Fare: especially with reloading code that involves gensyms
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2017-09-28T13:49:15Z Fare: I'll have to think about it
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2017-09-28T13:49:28Z vyzo: hello
2017-09-28T13:49:36Z beach: Fare: Can you give me some example scenario?
2017-09-28T13:49:42Z beach: Hello vyzo.
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2017-09-28T13:51:00Z Fare: I admit I haven't thought things through, but I can imagine macros that generate variants of a name to store data. If reloading means overwriting data with the "same" generated name, you might be in big pain when the names don't quite exactly match. If you always shadow the previous bindings, you might lose state you might have wanted to keep.
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2017-09-28T13:51:37Z beach: Do you mean loading from a FASL file?
2017-09-28T13:51:41Z Fare: in CL when using non-gensyms, it's very clear what's shared or isn't across upgrade; and with gensyms I suppose you'd always shadow / create new data.
2017-09-28T13:51:42Z vyzo: is there an archive I can look back at?
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2017-09-28T13:51:54Z vyzo: i hear there was a conversation i might be interested in
2017-09-28T13:52:05Z beach: vyzo: Tunes has logs.
2017-09-28T13:52:11Z Fare: vyzo: yes https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp
2017-09-28T13:52:14Z jackdaniel: vyzo: check out topic
2017-09-28T13:52:15Z vyzo: thx
2017-09-28T13:52:18Z Fare: tunes also has a log
2017-09-28T13:52:23Z Fare: or used to, at least
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2017-09-28T13:52:37Z Fare: maybe we should also get #gerbil-scheme logged
2017-09-28T13:53:09Z Fare: jackdaniel, you also link through C. How do you deal with re-loading of gensym'ed symbols?
2017-09-28T13:53:13Z vyzo: nah, i like the fleeting nature of it :)
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2017-09-28T13:53:46Z Shinmera: vyzo: There's also https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
2017-09-28T13:55:25Z jackdaniel: Fare: I don't know
2017-09-28T13:55:27Z beach: Fare: Do you mean loading from a FASL file?
2017-09-28T13:55:39Z Fare: beach: yes, and re-loading it after recompilation.
2017-09-28T13:56:19Z beach: Fare: That can't possibly work.
2017-09-28T13:56:34Z Fare: I suppose macro writers "know" that if they want stable state shared across recompilation they must generate stable names, not use gensyms.
2017-09-28T13:57:04Z Shinmera: Wouldn't be surprised if the spec mentions this in some form.
2017-09-28T13:57:11Z Fare: in Scheme, using Gerbil's syntax-case, I admit I have no idea what gives.
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2017-09-28T13:57:38Z Fare: and I suppose CL gensyms are somehow guaranteed not to clash with gensyms from previous loadings.
2017-09-28T13:57:49Z beach: Fare: I don't see how there could be a mechanism to identify a particular gensymmed symbol given a description of it in a FASL file.
2017-09-28T13:58:16Z beach: Fare: A new symbol would have to be generated when the file is loaded.
2017-09-28T13:58:49Z Fare: beach: a buggy implementation might say that the cell for foo#1234 of loading #1 is the same as cell for foo#1234 of loading #2, even though they correspond to completely different things, and then hilarity ensues.
2017-09-28T13:59:19Z beach: There can be any number of uninterned symbols with that name.
2017-09-28T13:59:28Z beach: Which one would you choose, and how would you keep track of them?
2017-09-28T13:59:42Z beach: There is no global table of all uninterned symbols.
2017-09-28T14:00:19Z Fare: that's the thing, you can't really track. So the sensible thing to do is ensure that cells are fresh, even if linked under the same name in the C .o
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2017-09-28T14:00:47Z Fare: (Gerbil compiles to Gambit to C to native code)
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2017-09-28T14:01:08Z Fare: (ECL also compiles to C to native code, so would be the closest thing in CL world)
2017-09-28T14:03:26Z beach: Fare: Again, there can be any number of distinct uninterned symbols with the same name, so there would be no way of choosing which one to use.
2017-09-28T14:03:46Z Fare: somehow the C linker shouldn't be made to share data with the same name and put it at the same address. And somehow when the lisp does its own linking on top of that, it must also do the right thing to rebind the shared bindings (to same global symbols) but not for gensyms.
2017-09-28T14:04:00Z Fare: beach: exactly
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2017-09-28T14:04:52Z Fare: in any case, the situation seems pretty well-defined in CL. I have no idea what is the model used by Gerbil, or if it's a big deal.
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2017-09-28T14:07:26Z Fare: note that making sure shared Lisp bindings are shared means when you compile you can't "just" inline addresses to variables/functions you define in the same file, since when loading you might be linked to a previously loaded/defined function/variable of the same name.
2017-09-28T14:08:18Z Fare: even though the "common case" of loading a file in a fresh image where it is the first to define those functions and bindings could indeed be optimized that way.
2017-09-28T14:09:14Z beach: If you have a GC that moves things, you can't use addresses anyway.
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2017-09-28T14:10:19Z Fare: well, you *might* assume that things loaded from fasl don't move
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2017-09-28T14:10:31Z Fare: especially if that allowed you to "just" mmap the code
2017-09-28T14:10:42Z Fare: big *if*
2017-09-28T14:10:48Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-28T14:15:24Z beach: So I take it since Gerbil is implemented "on top of the Gambit runtime", then things like bootstrapping and compilation are already taken care of, right?
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2017-09-28T14:26:02Z Fare: beach: yes, Gerbil reuses these parts of Gambit
2017-09-28T14:26:44Z Fare: beach: so it can focus on the higher-level parts of the macro+module system, and the libraries.
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2017-09-28T14:26:56Z beach: Sure.
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2017-09-28T14:33:28Z Fare: beach: thanks for the discussion
2017-09-28T14:33:40Z beach: Sure.  I hope it was useful to you.
2017-09-28T14:35:19Z Fare: it was.
2017-09-28T14:35:31Z Fare: and apologies again for being late.
2017-09-28T14:35:46Z Fare: what's the status of SICL ?
2017-09-28T14:36:10Z beach: I am mostly working on the Cleavir part now.  SICL as an implementation is not moving right now.
2017-09-28T14:36:17Z Fare: OK.
2017-09-28T14:36:29Z Fare: Could I convince you to be interested in first-class implementations?
2017-09-28T14:36:38Z Fare: https://j.mp/FarePhD
2017-09-28T14:37:02Z Fare: I'm almost done with a first pass of that damned thesis
2017-09-28T14:37:36Z beach: I'll definitely read it.  Is there some other aspect to "convince me to be interested..."?
2017-09-28T14:37:48Z beach: Like something you think I ought to be doing in SICL?
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2017-09-28T14:41:37Z Fare: well, I'd definitely want first-class implementations in Cleavir and/or SICL
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2017-09-28T14:41:54Z Fare: but that's some investment, too
2017-09-28T14:42:09Z beach: I am afraid I don't know what you mean by a "first-class implementation".
2017-09-28T14:42:22Z beach: Is it explained in the dissertation?
2017-09-28T14:42:25Z Fare: that's where you have to read the first half of my thesis
2017-09-28T14:42:27Z Fare: yes
2017-09-28T14:42:34Z beach: OK, I will do that.
2017-09-28T14:42:46Z Fare: thank you so much
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2017-09-28T14:43:40Z Fare: maybe I should learn how to do a git extract of just the files that matter so I can expose the history of the document on the web
2017-09-28T14:43:49Z Fare: and it's easier to send feedback.
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2017-09-28T14:44:56Z shrdlu68: Is there an implementation that produces c-like executables, rather than full CL images?
2017-09-28T14:45:41Z beach: shrdlu68: How would you execute such a thing if it doesn't contain the full image?
2017-09-28T14:46:06Z |3b|: i think ecl might
2017-09-28T14:46:21Z Fare: shrdlu68, are the two exclusive? Anyway, ECL and MKCL don't produce an image, only C-linked executables.
2017-09-28T14:46:28Z |3b|: with a separate shared lib for the 'standard library' part like C does
2017-09-28T14:46:35Z jackdaniel: ECL has autoload functionality, so some CL functions have stubs, which when called require specific module
2017-09-28T14:46:57Z jackdaniel: for instance compiler (having compile function) isn't part of the executable usually
2017-09-28T14:47:17Z jackdaniel: only when you call (compile 'something) it calls autoload and replaces function compile with the real thing from loaded module
2017-09-28T14:47:41Z jackdaniel: if you don't ship compiler, you have error
2017-09-28T14:48:00Z Fare: if what you really want is linking to C code, CFFI can help you do this. And/or bazel.
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2017-09-28T14:48:41Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: you may link with libecl.so and use it as any other library
2017-09-28T14:48:49Z Fare: jackdaniel, BTW, does the cffi toolchain support static linking with ECL? I don't remember implementing that.
2017-09-28T14:49:19Z shrdlu68: Thanks for the answers, all.
2017-09-28T14:49:42Z shrdlu68: beach: For example, a hello world program that is simply the syscall for I/O printing and exits.
2017-09-28T14:50:12Z jackdaniel: Fare: I don't know, though it has problems with loading it on ECL from slime
2017-09-28T14:50:32Z Fare: what has problem loading what?
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2017-09-28T14:51:07Z jackdaniel: loading cffi-toolchain leads to calling run-program with gray-stream provided as one of arguments
2017-09-28T14:51:19Z jackdaniel: probably *standard-output* or someting of this kind
2017-09-28T14:51:48Z jackdaniel: so it works from console, but loaded from slime it has problems. Don't remember exact details.
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2017-09-28T14:52:53Z Fare: oh
2017-09-28T14:53:02Z Fare: wasn't that fixed in ASDF at some point?
2017-09-28T14:53:08Z Fare: or did you fork before the fix?
2017-09-28T14:53:11Z jackdaniel: no ide
2017-09-28T14:53:26Z jackdaniel: no idea°
2017-09-28T14:53:36Z Fare: ok
2017-09-28T14:53:39Z shrdlu68: beach: If I wrote a hello world function in lisp and disassembled it in an implementation that had such functionality, then the full would only contain the assembly I'd see, plus some other essential stuff, but nothing else.
2017-09-28T14:53:57Z shrdlu68: *full executable
2017-09-28T14:54:26Z Fare: jackdaniel, around 3.2.0 I included a *lot* of ECL-specific fixes in ASDF. Did you merge them in your fork?
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2017-09-28T14:54:57Z jackdaniel: Fare: I've just frozen ECL with 3.1.x release and backported a few commits, hardly a fork
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2017-09-28T14:55:10Z Fare: If not, you might reconsider adopting the mainline ASDF at 3.3.0; it includes my reimplementation of make-build.
2017-09-28T14:55:22Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: you confuse programming languages with programming systems - one of CL traits is possibility to call system functions at runtime (which you never know)
2017-09-28T14:56:32Z jackdaniel: never know that will be called at compilation time*
2017-09-28T14:57:11Z jackdaniel: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf this is a great piece about the difference (concentrating on CLOS)
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2017-09-28T14:58:10Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: So a spec-compatible CL implementation could not possibly have such a feature?
2017-09-28T14:58:33Z jackdaniel: only in form as presented with libecl - functions loaded on demand and linked from the shared-object
2017-09-28T14:58:48Z jackdaniel: if you compile your application against libecl.so, you don't have CL runtime in your binary
2017-09-28T14:58:54Z jackdaniel: but it is linked with the implementation
2017-09-28T14:59:27Z |3b|: an implementation with a good tree shaker could, it just tends to cut off less than you might expect once programs grow larger than "hello world"
2017-09-28T15:00:47Z shrdlu68: I see.
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2017-09-28T15:01:24Z |3b|: for example on implementations that use compiler at runtime to optimize CLOS code
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2017-09-28T15:03:08Z beach: shrdlu68: Sure, there is a class of programs for which that might work, but you couldn't use READ for instance, because there might be a #.(do-something-sophisticated) in there.
2017-09-28T15:03:39Z scymtym: shrdlu68: the commercial CLs are much more sophisticated in this area. e.g. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/DV/html/delivery.htm
2017-09-28T15:03:45Z beach: shrdlu68: Or, if the program contains (funcall (symbol-function (read))) you are also in trouble.
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2017-09-28T15:04:54Z shrdlu68: I understand that, I meant programs without or with no need for such functionality.
2017-09-28T15:05:29Z shrdlu68: Most small programs I write happen to such.
2017-09-28T15:05:39Z shrdlu68: s/to/to be
2017-09-28T15:07:01Z beach: shrdlu68: In practice, it is not often worth trying to make a small executable, which is probably why most free implementations don't bother with this problem.
2017-09-28T15:07:52Z shrdlu68: True.
2017-09-28T15:08:13Z beach: shrdlu68: Plus, your use case is probably not common enough for the maintainers to care.
2017-09-28T15:08:25Z |3b| suspects it is more that it isn't worth much to the implementation developers, and the people for whom it is worth a lot just don't use CL, or put up with the lack rather than become implementation devs
2017-09-28T15:09:01Z beach: There is that.
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2017-09-28T15:09:27Z |3b|: and also that implementations developed without consideration of the problem raise the cost of adding it
2017-09-28T15:09:58Z Shinmera: where-is-the-tree-shaker.txt
2017-09-28T15:09:59Z |3b|: (like using compiler at runtime without option to pre-compile things)
2017-09-28T15:11:02Z beach: And, as was pointed out, the compiler might be needed for CLOS whenever a cache miss is seen in a call to a generic function.
2017-09-28T15:11:34Z beach: A lot of additional code would be required if the compiler could be absent.
2017-09-28T15:11:39Z foom: beach: well, you can always fall back to the interpreter
2017-09-28T15:11:54Z |3b|: sure, but ideally you could drop that too :)
2017-09-28T15:11:58Z beach: foom: What?
2017-09-28T15:12:14Z beach: foom: In a small executable?
2017-09-28T15:12:20Z |3b|: that lispworks link has a good description of various things that make it hard to remove features
2017-09-28T15:12:33Z beach: foom: The implementation may not even HAVE an interpreter.
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2017-09-28T15:13:04Z foom: beach: oh, are we talking about hypotheticals? Nevermind then.
2017-09-28T15:13:07Z |3b|: like typecase or typep keeps things alive that a clos method or type predicate (like integerp etc) wouldn't
2017-09-28T15:14:06Z |3b|: and symbols reference packages with reference other symbols which name functions etc
2017-09-28T15:14:18Z beach: foom: Well, yes, sort of.  shrdlu68 would like to know whether an implementation exists that contains only the code in the executable that is absolutely necessary.
2017-09-28T15:14:29Z |3b|: so it adds cost to user code as well as implementation work
2017-09-28T15:16:38Z beach: shrdlu68: I do think it would be a good idea for an implementation to have all the machine code for the base system in a shared library.  That way, you would get small executables, but still have the full system available.
2017-09-28T15:17:36Z shrdlu68: I had several naive premises. One, that for any CL program, it's C (or assembly) equivalent can be written. Two, that this is simply what the process of compilation does.
2017-09-28T15:17:45Z Shinmera: This is assuming the shared library is already available on the target system. In practise, it usually won't be, so .sos don't help for deployment.
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2017-09-28T15:18:23Z |3b|: well, it still amortizes cost over multiple deployments on a system if that happens, so potential improvement even if same worst case
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2017-09-28T15:19:07Z |3b|: and fits better with peoples past experience of "small binary with huge (but separate) runtime", so doesn't make CL look bad :)
2017-09-28T15:19:17Z beach: shrdlu68: You are not alone to have had such thoughts.  The other day, I got email from a person who wanted to use Cleavir to compile Common Lisp to a small subset of itself.
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2017-09-28T15:20:04Z Shinmera: |3b|: CL will still look bad because those kinds of people will pretty quickly realise they need to deploy the runtime too, which brings us back to the same place.
2017-09-28T15:20:32Z Shinmera: The real advantage in having the implementation as a .so is the prospect of embedding it into other runtimes and systems.
2017-09-28T15:22:28Z scymtym: also helps with running multiple processes using the same implementation
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2017-09-28T15:24:55Z Shinmera: Regarding that, how does SBCL load a core? Does it mmap it? If so, wouldn't COW already save the bulk of static memory?
2017-09-28T15:27:29Z |3b|: not if it was compressed :/
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2017-09-28T15:28:49Z dlowe: This problem of large binaries vs large runtimes is irrational, but pervasive.  People will gladly download glibc, perl, or python, which are all huge, but they want their "programs" to be small.
2017-09-28T15:30:16Z |3b|: more rational for popular languages like those where one would expect to have more than 1 program per runtime download
2017-09-28T15:30:43Z |3b|: though even with CL, if your single program updates more often than the runtime you still save a bit
2017-09-28T15:31:03Z Shinmera: binary diffs!
2017-09-28T15:34:31Z Shinmera: For that particular case you could probably also deploy fasls and automatically dump a new core whenever you update to get rid of the load time.
2017-09-28T15:35:22Z Shinmera: Could probably even neatly encapsulate that kind of deal in a library.
2017-09-28T15:35:28Z Shinmera: Hm!
2017-09-28T15:36:05Z dlowe: I mean, imagine having a debian system, except all the binaries have been replaced with lisp programs.
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2017-09-28T15:36:47Z dlowe: unless you just loaded everything into one image and dispatched on argc0, it would be ridiculous
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2017-09-28T15:39:07Z foom: I mean, that's basically Go, now.
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2017-09-28T15:39:52Z foom: But that use-case is somewhat niche, most people seem to be writing programs that are intended for deployment as the only important program, in a container.
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2017-09-28T15:42:56Z Shinmera: Well, it's more that, since you can't really make any guesses as to what the target system is going to be like, especially on Linux, you kind of have to ship everything, just to make sure it runs at all.
2017-09-28T15:43:18Z Shinmera: I'd love not to have to ship anything but my own code, but alas.
2017-09-28T15:45:17Z Shinmera: Containers are the evolution of that because nowadays you can't even assume what the configuration is going to be like, and that might screw you over too, so just ship an entire OS.
2017-09-28T15:48:12Z dlowe: that's eventually what the games industry did
2017-09-28T15:48:51Z foom: which reminds me again how horrible everything is on linux
2017-09-28T15:49:05Z dlowe: on windows :)
2017-09-28T15:49:11Z foom: steam ships effectively an entire OS, but it still isn't good enough, because they can't ship the 3d drivers.
2017-09-28T15:49:25Z Shinmera: portacle-linux.txt
2017-09-28T15:49:26Z foom: and the 3d drivers pull in a gazillion libraries, which conflict with the ones steam tries to ship.
2017-09-28T15:49:32Z foom: (in some cases)
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2017-09-28T16:27:58Z ovidnis: is there a format directive to repeat the last argument?
2017-09-28T16:28:23Z |3b|: clhs ~*
2017-09-28T16:28:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm
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2017-09-28T16:29:17Z scymtym: used like "first time: ~A second time: ~:*~A"
2017-09-28T16:29:29Z ovidnis: nice, thanks.
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2017-09-28T17:41:42Z jmercouris: hey everyone, I'm trying to run an external command in ECL, for some reason it reports the path incorrectly, here's a paste showing exactly what's going on: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357118
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2017-09-28T17:42:18Z jmercouris: as you can see in the paste the path appears 100% correct in the "pwd" command, which doesn't make sense as to why the other commands don't function
2017-09-28T17:42:34Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: you invoke run-program wrong
2017-09-28T17:42:37Z jackdaniel: first argument is program name
2017-09-28T17:42:46Z jackdaniel: second argument is list of executable arguments
2017-09-28T17:42:55Z jmercouris: aha, so argv was that
2017-09-28T17:42:58Z jmercouris: okay I see
2017-09-28T17:43:06Z jackdaniel: so it should be (ext:run-program "dylibbundler" '("-cd" ...))
2017-09-28T17:43:18Z jmercouris: right so each arg is separated by a space?
2017-09-28T17:43:20Z jmercouris: okay I'll try it
2017-09-28T17:43:27Z jmercouris: basically a list of args, makes sense
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2017-09-28T17:43:29Z jackdaniel: no, each arg is element in the list
2017-09-28T17:43:37Z jmercouris: yeah that's what I mean to say
2017-09-28T17:43:48Z jackdaniel: right, separating them by spaces would make arguments with spaces hard to express
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2017-09-28T17:44:03Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: yep, I gotcha, let me try reformatting these properly
2017-09-28T17:44:05Z jackdaniel: same for executables, like "/usr/bin/My Program"
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2017-09-28T17:49:29Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: alright, so I reformatted the command, and I got some very strange errors: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357118#1
2017-09-28T17:49:54Z jmercouris: Odd number of keys, not sure what that even means
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2017-09-28T17:50:20Z jackdaniel: you didn't remove NIL argument
2017-09-28T17:50:38Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: sorry for wasting your time :\
2017-09-28T17:50:56Z jackdaniel: no problem, I'm sick and incapable of programming
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2017-09-28T17:51:07Z jackdaniel: so I'm reading some essays
2017-09-28T17:51:21Z jackdaniel: (incapable due to loss of concentration, nothing serious)
2017-09-28T17:51:29Z jmercouris: ah okay :D
2017-09-28T17:51:34Z jmercouris: okay then I bug you with one more issue
2017-09-28T17:51:50Z jmercouris: so now here's something very strange, I think I have to prefix the args with "-" actually
2017-09-28T17:52:07Z jmercouris: because it spit out "Unknown flag cd"
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2017-09-28T17:52:40Z jackdaniel: yes, dash is part of the argument
2017-09-28T17:52:42Z jmercouris: yes, i had to do that, not sure if this is a known issue, or expected behavior
2017-09-28T17:53:01Z jmercouris: okay I assume it is sort of a minimal thing without magic of adding dashes for user control, k got it
2017-09-28T17:53:02Z jmercouris: just making sure
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2017-09-28T17:53:43Z scymtym: Xach: in OPENPGP-CHECKED-FETCH in the new bootstrapping code, between (format t "~&; Verifying OpenPGP signature...") and (format t "passed~%"), there is (fetch sig-url sig-file) which messes up the output
2017-09-28T17:54:28Z Xach: scymtym: thanks, i'll fix that!
2017-09-28T17:54:52Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: that's how these things are processed by the program, it's no different than normal invocation
2017-09-28T17:55:05Z jackdaniel: when you put in bash ls -R, then ls executable receives flag "-R", not "R"
2017-09-28T17:55:21Z scymtym: Xach: you're welcome. worked really well otherwise
2017-09-28T17:55:23Z jackdaniel: it's just a convention for passing one-character flags, not something built-in into calling convention
2017-09-28T17:55:41Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: ah, i didn't know that, thank you
2017-09-28T17:55:52Z Xach: I really like stack traces with run-program!
2017-09-28T17:55:54Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: in python it's different than C
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2017-09-28T17:56:04Z Xach: you can cut & paste the command line lists right out of the debugger and into the shell
2017-09-28T17:56:18Z Xach: it doesn't mind getting: "ls" "-l" "/tmp/xyz/"
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2017-09-28T18:01:23Z jmercouris: Xach: are we talking about the same thing her?
2017-09-28T18:01:31Z jmercouris: \/s/her/here
2017-09-28T18:02:07Z Xach: jmercouris: sort of. i'm talking about a side-effect of how it works and the impact on debugging
2017-09-28T18:03:04Z jmercouris: Xach: so you're saying in a terminal I could type in ls "-l" and it would work?
2017-09-28T18:03:18Z jmercouris: Xach: damn, you're right, that worked
2017-09-28T18:03:24Z Xach: jmercouris: you could type: "ls" "-l"
2017-09-28T18:03:40Z jmercouris: I guess it makes sense though right, "ls" probably resolves to "ls", yeah?
2017-09-28T18:03:44Z Xach: jmercouris: the shell does a lot of parsing, and you can use metacharacters like " to make it parse a particular way.
2017-09-28T18:04:03Z Xach: jmercouris: it happens that lisp string quoting matches typical shell quoting, as long as it doesn't have anything too meta in the strings.
2017-09-28T18:04:12Z Xach: 99.4% of the time, it does what i need when troubleshooting
2017-09-28T18:04:19Z jmercouris: Xach: yeah, but doesn't "ls" eval to "ls" in the shell?
2017-09-28T18:04:33Z basket: jmercouris: What did you mean by "in python it's different than C"?
2017-09-28T18:04:47Z Xach: jmercouris: I'm not sure what you mean, sorry.
2017-09-28T18:04:58Z jmercouris: basket: you don't need to supply the dashes when running external command in the sys library
2017-09-28T18:05:13Z jmercouris: basket: also argparse works a little bit differently than that, I can post a snippet if you are really interested
2017-09-28T18:05:32Z jmercouris: Xach: I'm saying, does "ls" work as ls because "ls" is evaluated in the shell as "ls"?
2017-09-28T18:05:45Z jmercouris: that is writing "some string" evaluates to itself, as it would in lisp?
2017-09-28T18:06:55Z Xach: jmercouris: sort of. underneath, the shell is processing a single input string into a "command" and a list of command arguments. typical run-program makes it more explicit.
2017-09-28T18:07:03Z |3b|: are you saying you could tell python to run ls with argument l and it would somehow know if you meant "long listing" or "file/dir named l"?
2017-09-28T18:07:33Z basket: jmercouris: In Python you'd either call an external program as os.system('ls -l') (which uses /bin/sh) or as subprocess.call(['ls', '-l']). I don't know what option you're talking about in sys
2017-09-28T18:07:35Z jmercouris: |3b|: not exactly, maybe I should just post a snippet
2017-09-28T18:08:00Z jmercouris: basket: one second
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2017-09-28T18:10:44Z jmercouris: looking at my own code it seems I was mistaken :D
2017-09-28T18:10:48Z jmercouris: https://pastebin.com/2vXD8ek4
2017-09-28T18:10:52Z jmercouris: I was thinking of opt parse
2017-09-28T18:10:59Z jmercouris: and yeah, you stil need to write the dashes
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2017-09-28T18:20:13Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: alright, so I'm on the final command, which refuses to work for some reason: http://paste.lisp.org/display/357118#2
2017-09-28T18:20:32Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: it seems that I must run it manually, no idea why that is, do you see anythign wrong?
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2017-09-28T18:26:49Z jmercouris: mismatch parens...
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2017-09-28T19:00:39Z pankracy: hi, does anyone know any sensible usage of 5am? where I can see `before` and `after` statements for each steps or suits?
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2017-09-28T20:05:40Z Fare: pankracy: make a github search?
2017-09-28T20:06:01Z Fare: and/or grep through quicklisp
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2017-09-28T20:11:54Z jackdaniel: pankracy: for fiveam you may use fixtures, but they are really no different from with-* macros
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2017-09-28T20:15:48Z z3t0: hi!
2017-09-28T20:15:59Z jackdaniel: (defmacro with-before-foo (&body body) `(progn (your-forms) ,@body)`) ; (defmacro with-after-foo (&body body) `(multiple-value-prog1 (progn ,@body) (your-after-forms))) etc
2017-09-28T20:16:11Z basket: Hi z3t0
2017-09-28T20:16:14Z shrdlu68: z3t0: Hello
2017-09-28T20:16:24Z z3t0: anything new in the world of lisp?
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2017-09-28T20:17:01Z jackdaniel: (get-universal-time) value has changed
2017-09-28T20:17:22Z papachan: Lol
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2017-09-28T20:23:40Z z3t0: :(
2017-09-28T20:23:48Z z3t0: time is relative
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2017-09-28T20:38:00Z Fare: z3t0: I'm using 64-bit timestamps as nanoseconds from epoch
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2017-09-28T20:40:42Z z3t0: time is relative
2017-09-28T20:41:15Z whoman: relativity is temporal
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2017-09-28T20:42:16Z Fare: if I don't think about them, will leap seconds just go away?
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2017-09-28T20:54:23Z francogrex: it's a pity there are so many good start for packages and then they quickly become abandon-ware such as https://github.com/xach/linj, https://sourceforge.net/projects/jacol/ and http://jfli.sourceforge.net/ to name a few
2017-09-28T20:54:47Z francogrex: I wonder why so much effort and then drop it...
2017-09-28T20:55:27Z Shinmera: Because people are not constants.
2017-09-28T20:55:39Z francogrex: not to mention even heavy weight projects such as Stella, corman-lisp ...
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2017-09-28T20:57:59Z pjb: francogrex: well, take Linj for example.
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2017-09-28T20:58:15Z pjb: What purpose does it serve?
2017-09-28T20:58:52Z pjb: The only purpose of Linj, is to reassure a Common Lisper, that if he cannot find a CL job, but a Java job, he'll still be able to write sexps and provide his employer Java sources.
2017-09-28T20:58:54Z francogrex: pjb: I am using it a lot these days :(
2017-09-28T20:59:09Z francogrex: not only that
2017-09-28T20:59:13Z pjb: Unfortunately, this is useless, because when you have a Java gig, you don't write new java code, you patch existing java code!
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2017-09-28T20:59:21Z francogrex: i am developing android apps using it
2017-09-28T20:59:54Z pjb: Are you alone? Don't you maintain it? Is it abandonware if somebody uses it?
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2017-09-28T21:00:51Z pjb: Anyways, my answer is that a lot of such projects are not aimed at a big market but only gives some psychogical comfort to their author.
2017-09-28T21:00:52Z francogrex: i am alone unfortunately. those are toy apps for my amusement, but i can see the potential... same for other tools i mentioned
2017-09-28T21:01:16Z francogrex: it does give a comfort
2017-09-28T21:01:35Z francogrex: pjb: however Stella was aimed at bigger projects
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2017-09-28T21:01:44Z pjb: So your query raises an important point: we should select projects targetting the general public.  Things like dim's sql thingy.
2017-09-28T21:01:53Z francogrex: https://www.isi.edu/isd/LOOM/Stella/
2017-09-28T21:01:58Z Shinmera: francogrex: I don't understand where your confusion stems from. People's interests and needs shift all the time. And even with large effort project, at some point there's diminishing returns.
2017-09-28T21:02:29Z francogrex: they built a large system with it apparently the so-called PowerLoom
2017-09-28T21:02:49Z pjb: francogrex: it's the same thing as linj.  Look, people are even complaining when they come after a "smart" programmer who wrote too "advanced" code.
2017-09-28T21:02:52Z francogrex: Shinmera: right
2017-09-28T21:03:01Z francogrex: I just find it a pity
2017-09-28T21:03:28Z francogrex: !? who complains about that?
2017-09-28T21:03:39Z pjb: python as the thing for it, that it has only statements and no expression: people are forced to write plain procedural code.  Most people would have their brain exploding if they saw a functional expression!
2017-09-28T21:04:29Z pjb: So Stella might be very nice, and you or me could be using it to very good effect.  But most of our coworkers wouldn't be able to maintain it.
2017-09-28T21:04:41Z pjb: They'd just rewrite the thing in C++ or Java.
2017-09-28T21:05:00Z pjb: Just like they did at Yahoo with ViaWeb, or anywhere else where they rewrote lisp projects in C or whatever.
2017-09-28T21:05:47Z pjb: Anyways, nowadays Android development is not done in Java anymore.  So your using Linj to generate Java is outdated.  Now it's Kotlin.
2017-09-28T21:05:59Z francogrex: most notable example that comes to mind is R
2017-09-28T21:05:59Z pjb: Same wit iOS, Objective-C is out, nowadays it's all Swift
2017-09-28T21:06:15Z francogrex: started out lisp and switched to C & C++ too
2017-09-28T21:06:23Z francogrex: right
2017-09-28T21:06:31Z pjb: (and where you LoL, is when you realize how close Swift and Kotlin are, and they weren't able to design a common language…)
2017-09-28T21:07:54Z attila_lendvai: kotlin: where the frontpage brags about semicolons being optional... oh, the progress!
2017-09-28T21:08:13Z pjb: :-)
2017-09-28T21:08:36Z shka_: i think that Stella is good for what is worth
2017-09-28T21:09:05Z shka_: i tried it, i hope i can use it for work
2017-09-28T21:09:07Z pjb: Uncle Bob explained it nicely: we double the number of programmers every 5 years.  Therefore half of the workforce is entirely unexperimented, constantly, it has been the same forever.
2017-09-28T21:09:25Z francogrex is puzzled by the waste... but yeah what can we do..
2017-09-28T21:09:36Z Shinmera: What you can do is pick up the waste and finish it.
2017-09-28T21:09:56Z Shinmera: Instead of yammering about what other people do or do not do with their time
2017-09-28T21:09:58Z pjb: So the code you write, will have to be maintained by newbies who don't know anything.  The code you will have to maintain, will have been written by newbies who don't know what they're doing.
2017-09-28T21:10:02Z Josh_2: pjb: what do you mean by "entirely unexperimented"
2017-09-28T21:10:10Z shka_: francogrex: i actually work in R recently
2017-09-28T21:10:12Z Josh_2: ahh
2017-09-28T21:10:19Z pjb: And constantly newbies will come with "new" languages, "new" tools, and "new" methods.
2017-09-28T21:10:32Z pjb: Josh_2: when you have less than 5 years of experience.
2017-09-28T21:10:46Z francogrex: R was in lisp or scheme originally yeah but it's all the same in the end...
2017-09-28T21:10:54Z shka_: can't hope but think that it would be way better if they just sticked with lisp
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2017-09-28T21:11:37Z Josh_2: pjb: Thanks. Few more years and I won't be in that category :O
2017-09-28T21:11:53Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xy3QC7yxJw
2017-09-28T21:11:54Z shka_: it is way to much hassle to support whole language for just what R is
2017-09-28T21:11:58Z francogrex: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-devel/2008-May/049501.html
2017-09-28T21:11:59Z shka_: or S for that matter
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2017-09-28T21:12:27Z shka_: and mind you, i actually kinda like R
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2017-09-28T21:12:53Z shka_: it is pain to debug, and a bit clunky, but it is interesting design
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2017-09-28T21:13:10Z shka_: anyway, good night all
2017-09-28T21:13:36Z jmercouris: shka_: goodnight
2017-09-28T21:13:47Z shka_: please, don't be so down about state of the industry
2017-09-28T21:14:41Z francogrex: good night
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2017-09-28T21:18:03Z Fare: make your own job, pick your programming language
2017-09-28T21:18:28Z jmercouris: Fare: oh, that sounds easy :P
2017-09-28T21:18:32Z Josh_2: ^^
2017-09-28T21:18:48Z jmercouris: speaking of jobs... I'm still looking for contributors: https://github.com/neXT-Browser/nEXT/
2017-09-28T21:18:59Z jmercouris: I can't pay you, but we can work on something interesting together :D
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2017-09-28T21:19:35Z Shinmera: I think you'll find that most people already have their own versions of interesting things to work on.
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2017-09-28T21:19:52Z Josh_2: No harm in asking though.
2017-09-28T21:20:08Z Shinmera: Sure. I just wouldn't expect anything.
2017-09-28T21:20:41Z prxq: jmercouris: money on the table always attracts collaborators :-)
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2017-09-28T21:21:21Z jmercouris: prxq: I'm working on it...
2017-09-28T21:21:39Z jmercouris: I am hoping that eventually I can pay people to work on it, its' a hard model to start with nothing from open source though
2017-09-28T21:21:40Z Josh_2: About tree fiddy
2017-09-28T21:22:16Z jmercouris: Shinmera: My expectations are below the floor :D
2017-09-28T21:22:40Z Shinmera: They must be ground breaking, then.
2017-09-28T21:23:29Z jmercouris: Lol :D!!!
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2017-09-28T21:24:00Z pjb: jmercouris: in the spirit of the above mentionned project choice problematic, it should be noted that you won't be able to compete with Firefox…  therefore your project of a web-browser is ultimately doomed.   But don't let that discourage you.
2017-09-28T21:24:21Z prxq: pjb: :-)
2017-09-28T21:24:26Z Josh_2: pjb: just throwing a wrench in the works
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2017-09-28T21:24:45Z prxq: "you are doomed. Don't let that discourage you". That's... stuff for a bumper sticker
2017-09-28T21:24:51Z pjb: :-/
2017-09-28T21:25:18Z pjb: I mean, the doom is only on one plan. On multiple other plans, it can be a big success.
2017-09-28T21:25:22Z Shinmera: Well, everyone's gonna die anyway, yet people still do things.
2017-09-28T21:25:49Z basket: jmercouris: Prefer docstrings to comments
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2017-09-28T21:30:03Z aeth: jmercouris: I've given some thought about this for other projects. If you are going to have a budget to pay people bounties for things that compete with C++ programs, you probably should actually pay SBCL developers, rather than program developers. i.e. Get optimizations added to SBCL that make your code run faster.
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2017-09-28T21:30:42Z aeth: Although, of course, optimizations are on both sides, the application and the compiler, so they'd probably also make some changes to the application.
2017-09-28T21:31:26Z aeth: There's probably a lot of low hanging optimization fruit in SBCL and CCL that GCC and LLVM implemented a long time ago.
2017-09-28T21:31:51Z prxq: aeth: I'm not that sure.
2017-09-28T21:32:13Z prxq: But still a good idea to get those missing in...
2017-09-28T21:32:26Z Shinmera: I thought his browser used EQL and thus ECL anyway, so SBCL would be rather irrelevant to his own needs.
2017-09-28T21:32:50Z aeth: Well, ECL then.
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2017-09-28T21:33:31Z aeth: And there's definitely stuff in ECL that could be improved. It's slower than SBCL and CCL in general (although not on all things), at least in my benchmarks.
2017-09-28T21:34:10Z Bicyclidine: hello sbcl develoeprs, i have a hankering for all those sweet "fun"safe math optimizations, and
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2017-09-28T21:34:52Z prxq: a hankering? What the hell is that?
2017-09-28T21:34:53Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm not competing with firefox
2017-09-28T21:35:10Z pjb: You're still writing a web browser..
2017-09-28T21:35:13Z Shinmera: It's a browser, so yes you are, even if you don't want to be.
2017-09-28T21:35:15Z Bicyclidine: a hankering
2017-09-28T21:35:18Z jmercouris: pjb: That's where you are wrong
2017-09-28T21:35:27Z jmercouris: you are assuming there is only one space for a web browsr on a user's computer
2017-09-28T21:35:33Z jmercouris: you have different tools for different jobs
2017-09-28T21:35:37Z Bicyclidine: i'm going to hanker the shit out of them
2017-09-28T21:35:43Z jmercouris: firefox tries to be everything, and they are casually good at everything
2017-09-28T21:35:43Z Shinmera: There pretty much is, though.
2017-09-28T21:35:54Z pjb: I'm not assuming: I've got Firefox and Safari open all the time together…
2017-09-28T21:35:58Z jmercouris: but you have to change your perspective
2017-09-28T21:36:06Z jmercouris: this is not a competition with firefox, this is a different class of tool
2017-09-28T21:36:08Z pjb: But what this shows, is that Apple cannot complete against Firefox!
2017-09-28T21:36:11Z jmercouris: this is a productivity research tool, not a BROWSER
2017-09-28T21:36:28Z jmercouris: so a user may happily install this, and use firefox for whatever other some such nonsense they use
2017-09-28T21:36:39Z jmercouris: additionally, I'm not trying to gain market share on the level of firefox
2017-09-28T21:36:40Z pjb: Even if it has some nice features in Safari, Firefox is still better or the only browser able to do the job.
2017-09-28T21:36:52Z jmercouris: I'm just targeting a few hardcore people like emacs users, and maybe to get the sympathies of some lispers
2017-09-28T21:37:05Z prxq: jmercouris: sounds interesting (i mean it)
2017-09-28T21:37:16Z Josh_2: pjb: Uncle Bob is quite the character
2017-09-28T21:37:30Z pjb: Josh_2: well, any old programmer.
2017-09-28T21:37:39Z jmercouris: aeth: I would, but actually my program uses ECL :P
2017-09-28T21:37:48Z aeth: jmercouris: yes, s/SBCL/ECL/ then
2017-09-28T21:38:16Z jmercouris: aeth: yeah, i've really thought about that, I've been applying for some grants, so we'll see
2017-09-28T21:38:26Z jmercouris: I also have a monetization plan if you are interested in hearing about it
2017-09-28T21:39:38Z jmercouris: prxq: thanks for your interest! You can support me if you want by starring the repository :D
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2017-09-28T21:41:01Z jmercouris: basket: what's your strategy for multiline docstrings? do you use a standardized format for your docstrings?
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2017-09-28T21:45:38Z basket: jmercouris: Strategy with regards to what? Don't indent lines that shouldn't be indented when you read it
2017-09-28T21:47:46Z basket: jmercouris: I try to give a brief summary, then cover each argument, then return value, then examples, skipping any or all of those if I don't think writing it in prose explains it better than the name does
2017-09-28T21:48:08Z jmercouris: basket: but do you have a standardized format you use for the args?
2017-09-28T21:48:26Z basket: jmercouris: But in a lot of places you've already written documentation for functions and classes that you just stuck in a comment where it's awkward to get at from a listener
2017-09-28T21:48:39Z basket: I'm not sure what you mean
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2017-09-28T21:49:50Z pjb:  jmercouris: each programmer has his own standard :-)
2017-09-28T21:50:14Z Josh_2: pjb: I'm 36 minutes into that vid. Am just waiting for him to say "youngens suck".
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2017-09-28T21:56:11Z jmercouris: basket: I want to run ultimately through a documentation generator, thats why I was asking
2017-09-28T21:56:40Z jmercouris: basket: like this: http://quickdocs.org/clod/api
2017-09-28T21:57:53Z francogrex: jmercouris: your project is interesting. you just have to think to add something useful for the mass of end-users that others browsers don't have in order to get an edge..
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2017-09-28T22:01:37Z Josh_2: pjb: I'm gonna sell my computer and become a hermit.
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2017-09-28T22:07:53Z pjb: Josh_2: or keep it, to use it like you used your first micro computer: to write little games and programs for yourself.  In Common Lisp, it's fun.
2017-09-28T22:08:10Z pjb: Josh_2: watch a few Alan Kays' videos too :-)
2017-09-28T22:10:15Z Josh_2: I've never had "my first microcomputer" I'm 21. I've seen some of the Alan Kay videos you have put in #clnoobs before
2017-09-28T22:10:23Z Josh_2: like Power of Simplicity
2017-09-28T22:11:33Z francogrex: or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pioneers_in_computer_science
2017-09-28T22:12:31Z Josh_2: Not many over 2000
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2017-09-28T22:19:06Z sukaeto: <pjb> [...] But most of our coworkers wouldn't be able to maintain [some Lisp thing].
2017-09-28T22:19:14Z sukaeto: I suppose this heavily depends on where you work
2017-09-28T22:19:53Z sukaeto: if I were hit by a bus tomorrow, I have at least two teammates who could pick up the Lisp thing I maintain right away
2017-09-28T22:20:26Z sukaeto: and a third one who'd be willing to do so begrudgingly (though I think he'd grow to like the tooling a lot once he got used to it).
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2017-09-28T22:20:41Z sukaeto: and ultimately, I think anyone on the team would be able to work with it if they had to
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2017-09-28T22:22:16Z pjb: sukaeto: the point is that if you have a non-homogeneous team, you will have half of it staffed by newbies, so the other half won't be able to use advanced techniques in the code, if you want it to be maintainable by the newbies.
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2017-09-28T22:22:48Z pjb: sukaeto: of course, you can also build a team of experimented programmers.  But the more experimented, the fewer of them they are, and the more expensive they are.  Exponentially.
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2017-09-28T22:23:31Z pjb: It's not only the doom of CL, but of other languages such as Haskell, Coq, etc.
2017-09-28T22:24:03Z Josh_2: This makes me very glad I don't want to work as a programmer.
2017-09-28T22:24:09Z pjb: It's very nice to be able to incorporate any mathematical notion in Haskell, but the problem is that your coworkers are not mathematicians: they won't understand the first word of your haskell program even if they're haskell programmers.
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2017-09-28T22:24:32Z pjb: Josh_2: well, you would have it worse if you're a programmer manager…
2017-09-28T22:24:33Z sukaeto: I dunno, I think you (the general "you", not you specifically) have a mentorship problem if you can't get junior engineers up to speed with your code
2017-09-28T22:24:58Z Josh_2: pjb: can you elaborate?
2017-09-28T22:24:59Z pjb: Josh_2: the question is whether you're a _professional_ programmer, or an amateur.  As an amateur, programming is very fun and nice.
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2017-09-28T22:25:51Z pjb: sukaeto: how much time do you allocate to mentorship?
2017-09-28T22:25:54Z pjb: :-)
2017-09-28T22:25:55Z sukaeto: yeah, I was gonna say.  Maintaining "shitty" (where "shitty" is in the eye of the beholder) code in a language you're not familiar with is sometimes part of the job.  You do it because you're a pro
2017-09-28T22:26:22Z pjb: And being a lisper helps to give your perspective to do this.
2017-09-28T22:26:31Z pjb: But it may remove some motivation: you need more money! :-)
2017-09-28T22:27:01Z pjb: bbl
2017-09-28T22:27:49Z sukaeto: pjb: I don't really have a precise answer for that, sorry :-/
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2017-09-28T22:28:52Z Josh_2: I'm off to sleep, I have Uni tomorrow. G'night all!
2017-09-28T22:29:02Z sukaeto: my vague answer is "give them a spin up buddy for the first few weeks, and then have the senior engineers be 'available' here and there for code reviews/questions/etc"
2017-09-28T22:30:27Z sukaeto: also, I shouldn't be so absolute: you could also have a problem with technical debt if you can't get junior engineers spun up
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2017-09-28T22:30:42Z sukaeto: or you could have problems that I'm not imaginative enough to enumerate :-)
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2017-09-28T22:41:03Z Xach: aha!
2017-09-28T22:41:12Z Xach: sbcl seems to have corrected the destructuring-bind of nil!
2017-09-28T22:41:38Z Xach: attila_lendvai: it affects some hu.dwimware!
2017-09-28T22:41:50Z Xach: #<HU.DWIM.CL-SOURCE-FILE "hu.dwim.presentation" "source" "component" "widget" "google"> specifically
2017-09-28T22:42:17Z attila_lendvai: Xach: thanks for the head's up!
2017-09-28T22:42:50Z Xach:   http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-09-28/failure-report/hu.dwim.presentation.html#hu.dwim.presentation has some logs
2017-09-28T22:43:12Z attila_lendvai builds SBCL head
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2017-09-28T22:59:30Z nydel: i need to parse some csv files in order to combine data that has a common element in two documents. would anyone recommend an existing library to deal with reading and writing csv to lists?
2017-09-28T22:59:49Z aeth: pjb: It's worse than that. Mathematicians don't understand other mathematicians unless they're in the same sub-sub-field.
2017-09-28T22:59:56Z aeth: It's the least comprehensible discipline.
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2017-09-28T23:04:12Z pillton: Would a doctor in a general practice be able to work as a nuclear physician without training?
2017-09-28T23:07:24Z aeth: I think the general issue is something along the lines of a PhD mathematician is less able to read papers from other PhD mathematicians in general than a PhD foo reading papers from other PhD foos.
2017-09-28T23:09:02Z pjb: Yes, but the difference is that thanks to Turing Equivalence, we can "compile" advanced mathematical papers or programs, down to basic logical expressions that any programmer can "understand" and maintain. <-- !!!
2017-09-28T23:09:27Z pjb: and this is what is expected of advanced programmers: to write the most basic programming.
2017-09-28T23:10:44Z aeth: Except programs are more rigorous than most mathematical proofs because programs have to run while proofs just have to be understood by humans.
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2017-09-28T23:11:37Z pjb: aeth: you mean they don't use automatic proof assistants?
2017-09-28T23:11:51Z pjb: I'd hope at least most young mathematicians do.
2017-09-28T23:12:05Z aeth: I think most proofs are still not computer-assisted in any way, afaik.
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2017-09-28T23:22:26Z jmercouris: aeth: well, it depends, some proofs rely on computation to prove some thing, let's say proof by reduction
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2017-09-28T23:32:36Z bigos: what are the best jobs for former programmers? what you think about data entry?
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2017-09-28T23:48:54Z attila_lendvai: Xach: the dest-bind issue should be fixed
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2017-09-28T23:49:52Z attila_lendvai has found another one
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2017-09-28T23:52:49Z attila_lendvai thinks it's really fixed now
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2017-09-28T23:55:39Z didi: So I need to retrieve values from 2-tuples keys. There aren't many keys. First, I used a CONS key inside an EQUAL hash-table. Now I am still using CONS keys, but inside an ALIST, which is performing better than the hash-table. Any ideas on how to improve it? The 2-tuples have integers as elements, so key_i = (cons -42 7), for example. And the values are positive integers.
2017-09-28T23:58:01Z didi: It's a pretty ugly function if anyone wants to stare at the abyss: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/964697ba
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2017-09-29T00:04:02Z Bike: variable names make this kind of impossible
2017-09-29T00:04:20Z Bike: but, maybe keeping it sorted? i guess more helpful if you expect misses
2017-09-29T00:04:20Z pillton: didi: What about hashing the two integer values in the key?
2017-09-29T00:05:49Z |3b|: if you have a known small range for the 2 values, maybe combine them into 1 number (if less than ~1/2 of your fixnum size)  or just make a 2d array (if in the tens to hundreds range)
2017-09-29T00:06:08Z didi: pillton: I tried cantor pairing, but it is slower.
2017-09-29T00:06:18Z didi: Bike: True. Sorry.
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2017-09-29T00:08:00Z didi: |3b|: Do you have a combination algorithm? Like I said to pillton, I tried canton pairing ( https://paste.debian.net/hidden/aabda13e ) but in my case, it was slower.
2017-09-29T00:08:15Z didi: s/canton/cantor
2017-09-29T00:08:39Z Bike: one number in low bits, other number in high bits?
2017-09-29T00:08:46Z didi: Bike: Uh...
2017-09-29T00:08:56Z didi: |3b|: I see now.
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2017-09-29T00:09:48Z Bike: going straight to the 19th century is pretty metal though
2017-09-29T00:09:49Z didi: Thank you all.
2017-09-29T00:10:18Z didi: Bike: Well, true. But I might try it for some batch computations.
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2017-09-29T00:19:49Z Noobiee: Hello, someone can help me call the shell using ECL?
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2017-09-29T00:23:10Z jmercouris: Noobiee: Yes
2017-09-29T00:23:23Z jmercouris: Noobiee: What do you mean by call the shell? execute an external command?
2017-09-29T00:23:55Z |3b|: didi: i meant like (dpb k1 (byte 32 32) k2) or whatever
2017-09-29T00:24:26Z |3b|: with 32s adjusted for word size and required range
2017-09-29T00:24:31Z didi: |3b|: Thank you.
2017-09-29T00:24:34Z jmercouris: Noobiee: If that's what you mean, please see here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/rn01re65.html
2017-09-29T00:24:37Z |3b|: (and probably with more thought to make sure signed #s work correctly)
2017-09-29T00:25:06Z didi: Oh, right.
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2017-09-29T00:28:13Z jmercouris: how can I inspect a lisp function at run-time?
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2017-09-29T00:28:30Z pillton: What do you mean by inspect?
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2017-09-29T00:28:45Z jmercouris: pillton: I'm trying to understand what the function does, I believe its a macro that's expanded out
2017-09-29T00:29:08Z jmercouris: pillton: like is there a way I can say something like "show source" for a given function?
2017-09-29T00:29:19Z pillton: If you use Emacs you can press M-. on the operator.
2017-09-29T00:29:22Z Xach: jmercouris: M-. is one way
2017-09-29T00:29:42Z jmercouris: pillton: Xach: it says "no known definition"
2017-09-29T00:29:52Z pillton: What is the operator?
2017-09-29T00:30:02Z jmercouris: qrequire, it's part of EQL
2017-09-29T00:30:30Z pillton: Have you loaded the system in to the current image?
2017-09-29T00:30:46Z jmercouris: pillton: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5
2017-09-29T00:30:49Z jmercouris: pillton: what does that mean?
2017-09-29T00:31:22Z pillton: What does (apropos "qrequire") return?
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2017-09-29T00:32:30Z jmercouris: pillton: nil
2017-09-29T00:32:51Z pillton: Does it print anything out?
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2017-09-29T00:33:29Z jmercouris: nothing, only says "No apropos matches for ‘qrequire’" in message buffer
2017-09-29T00:34:42Z pillton: That is why M-. does not work because the currently running lisp does not contain the operator.
2017-09-29T00:35:05Z jmercouris: pillton: Right, that makes sense, I'm running ECL, and this symbol is part of EQL
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2017-09-29T00:35:38Z pillton: It has been years since I used EQL. It might be easier to just grep for it in the EQL sources.
2017-09-29T00:35:56Z jmercouris: I've been doing that, I can show the definition, it doesn't really make sense to me
2017-09-29T00:36:05Z pillton: Sorry. It might be easier for me to tell you to just grep for it.
2017-09-29T00:36:33Z pillton: Please do.
2017-09-29T00:37:51Z jmercouris: pillton: in this file: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5/blob/master/src/ecl_fun.cpp look for this line: cl_object qrequire2(cl_object l_name, cl_object l_quiet) { /// qrequire
2017-09-29T00:38:53Z jmercouris: ah shit, I just realized why this was breaking my code
2017-09-29T00:39:08Z jmercouris: fileName.prepend("/usr/local/lib/"); // "local" might not be in library search path
2017-09-29T00:39:14Z jmercouris: I've moved the libs to a diff path
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2017-09-29T00:53:56Z Noobiee: i will try jm
2017-09-29T00:53:59Z Noobiee: i will try jmercouris*
2017-09-29T00:54:34Z jmercouris: Noobiee: best of luck! let me know if you have any issues
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2017-09-29T01:04:48Z Noobiee: (setf pastas (ext:run-program "ls" '() :output :STREAM :error :OUTPUT))
2017-09-29T01:04:50Z Noobiee: SOrry..
2017-09-29T01:04:57Z Noobiee: mistake paste
2017-09-29T01:05:01Z Noobiee: it worked jmercouris
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2017-09-29T01:40:20Z jmercouris: Noobiee: yay!
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2017-09-29T01:51:13Z Noobiee: :]
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2017-09-29T02:40:29Z z3t0: what happens in a loop with two for variables
2017-09-29T02:40:38Z z3t0: does it increment them both at the same time
2017-09-29T02:40:46Z z3t0: or?
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2017-09-29T02:42:58Z Bike: it can increment them at the same time or sequentially, but it increments each once per iteration either way
2017-09-29T02:43:45Z z3t0: ah
2017-09-29T02:43:48Z z3t0: so just to make sure
2017-09-29T02:44:12Z z3t0: (loop for x from 1 to 10 for y from 1 to 10)) is like so...
2017-09-29T02:44:18Z z3t0: 1, 1
2017-09-29T02:44:20Z z3t0: 2, 1
2017-09-29T02:44:22Z z3t0: 2, 2 etc?
2017-09-29T02:44:38Z Bike: no.
2017-09-29T02:44:55Z Bike: try (loop for from 1 to 3 for y from 1 to 3 collect (cons x y))
2017-09-29T02:45:02Z Bike: you should get ((1 . 1) (2 . 2) (3 . 3))
2017-09-29T02:45:13Z z3t0: ah I see
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2017-09-29T02:45:47Z z3t0: if say I needed it to be as I showed above, would i make two loops or is there a way for a single loop to achieve that
2017-09-29T02:51:41Z Zhivago: Which part of Bike's example doesn't fit your requirement?
2017-09-29T02:51:47Z Bike: two loops
2017-09-29T02:52:15Z Bike: Zhivago: it sounds like they want all distinct pairs, rather than just the basic iteration
2017-09-29T02:52:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-29T02:52:28Z Zhivago: Ah, I see.
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2017-09-29T02:53:04Z Zhivago: You could use a single loop and decompose the iterator.
2017-09-29T02:54:31Z jmercouris: beach: Guten morgen!
2017-09-29T02:56:38Z turkja: Hey what do you think about AMOP (the book)? Is it still relevant for todays CLOS?
2017-09-29T02:56:44Z beach: It is.
2017-09-29T02:57:01Z pillton: It is a great book.
2017-09-29T02:57:05Z turkja: it's kinda expensive, so i'm curious
2017-09-29T02:57:32Z beach: turkja: Most implementations still support the protocols in that book.
2017-09-29T02:57:37Z turkja: nice!
2017-09-29T02:57:38Z Bike: the protocol described is the basis for the modern clos implementations, with minor modifications
2017-09-29T02:58:39Z beach: turkja: If you only need the specification part, you could use this site: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html
2017-09-29T02:59:19Z turkja: i'll check it out, thanks.. but i also want to read good book :)
2017-09-29T02:59:27Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-29T02:59:43Z jmercouris: turkja: ahve you seen the cl cookbook? has a great clos section
2017-09-29T03:00:19Z jmercouris: turkja: http://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/clos.html
2017-09-29T03:00:30Z pillton: turkja: It is worth reading AMOP to get a better understanding of CLOS' object, glue and syntax layers. I found this useful for implementing non CLOS problems.
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2017-09-29T03:01:11Z pillton: i.e. The design of CLOS is worth replicating for other problems.
2017-09-29T03:01:47Z turkja: (searching for used copy... i'm so easy to convince..)
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2017-09-29T03:03:26Z jmercouris: turkja: I don't advocate piracy, but maybe there are copies online...
2017-09-29T03:09:54Z z3t0: can you guys suggest some cool flashy  things to show to people to convince them of the lisp way haha
2017-09-29T03:10:05Z z3t0: I find that the concept of macros seems to go above the head of most people
2017-09-29T03:10:24Z beach: z3t0: People usually do not want to be convinced, so you are wasting your time.
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2017-09-29T03:11:49Z z3t0: okay but I'm at first year university
2017-09-29T03:12:02Z z3t0: Theres a bunch of people that want to learn programming and theyve never done it before
2017-09-29T03:12:14Z z3t0: It's easy for me to persuade them because they dont know anything else
2017-09-29T03:12:22Z beach: Good luck then.
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2017-09-29T03:12:43Z White_Flame: without experience in programming, and hitting the shortcomings of various language designs, they have no context in which to evaluate the strengths of advanced topics like metaprogramming or why somebody would actually do that
2017-09-29T03:12:58Z White_Flame: in the beginning, it's much more about the immediate tangibles that grabs people
2017-09-29T03:13:16Z White_Flame: and most other languages have greenspun in a lot of the low-hanging fruit that Lisp used to uniquely offer
2017-09-29T03:14:08Z z3t0: I agree
2017-09-29T03:14:25Z z3t0: My only angle here is that it would be easy to get a bunch of people using lisp if they dont really know anything else
2017-09-29T03:14:31Z White_Flame: sure
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2017-09-29T03:14:39Z z3t0: even if they only use 10% of the features of the language, its something haha
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2017-09-29T03:17:11Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: Hi, I'm seeing an off-by-one error in clss while using the :last-child pseudo-selector.
2017-09-29T03:17:15Z beach: z3t0: Maybe the REPL could be somewhat convincing.
2017-09-29T03:17:26Z z3t0: but python also has a repl?
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2017-09-29T03:18:54Z pillton: A REPL that doesn't require evaluating reload(<module>) all of the time?
2017-09-29T03:19:10Z marvin2: z3t0 so what, if they don't know anything how would they know python has repl
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2017-09-29T03:21:23Z z3t0_: to nest loops do I just use a do ( loop())
2017-09-29T03:21:55Z Bike: yep
2017-09-29T03:21:56Z beach: Or COLLECT (LOOP ...
2017-09-29T03:21:56Z White_Flame: anywhere there is an evaluated form, you can use a form..
2017-09-29T03:22:04Z z3t0_: alright cool
2017-09-29T03:22:15Z z3t0_: loop is just very confusing for me haha
2017-09-29T03:22:37Z White_Flame: (loop do (loop)) for O(n^2) infinite looping
2017-09-29T03:24:38Z z3t0_: isnt there some sort of failsafe against an infinite loop?
2017-09-29T03:24:48Z White_Flame: not built-in
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2017-09-29T03:25:13Z White_Flame: if you recurse, you could use blowing the stack as an infinite loop trap
2017-09-29T03:25:18Z beach: z3t0_: If there were, the language would not be Turing complete.
2017-09-29T03:25:21Z White_Flame: or just have a max counter check somewhere
2017-09-29T03:25:35Z z3t0_: but wouldn't this be dangerous?
2017-09-29T03:25:57Z shrdlu68: An infinite loop is a perfectly thing.
2017-09-29T03:25:59Z White_Flame: programming is dangerous.  What if you program the wrong thing?  What if you forget to check for an error?  What if you accidentally have a bug?
2017-09-29T03:26:23Z beach: White_Flame: Wow, that can happen??? :)
2017-09-29T03:26:33Z White_Flame: not if you're good enough! ;)
2017-09-29T03:26:41Z z3t0_: haha
2017-09-29T03:27:17Z shrdlu68: *perfectly fine, I meant.
2017-09-29T03:27:34Z White_Flame: but in any case, the REPL is a pretty well-known example of an infinite loop
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2017-09-29T03:36:07Z jmercouris: White_Flame: also, all games are infinite loops
2017-09-29T03:37:08Z beach: And operating systems.
2017-09-29T03:37:37Z marvin2: if that was true you couldn't close any game without killing it
2017-09-29T03:37:58Z marvin2: which would be pretty rude
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2017-09-29T03:44:22Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: This appears to fix it: http://paste.lisp.org/+7NL3
2017-09-29T03:45:12Z beach: shrdlu68: You need to use slime-indentation to get LOOP clauses to be correctly indented.
2017-09-29T03:49:16Z shrdlu68: beach: I can't seem to find slime-indentation mode.
2017-09-29T03:50:27Z beach: In your .emacs, when you set up SLIME, do this: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf slime-indentation))
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2017-09-29T03:50:48Z beach: I.e. include slime-indentation in your setup.
2017-09-29T03:51:07Z z3t0_: hmm okay I am kind of stuck on a wierd proble
2017-09-29T03:51:11Z z3t0_: problem
2017-09-29T03:51:27Z z3t0_: I need to loop for x from a to b by c
2017-09-29T03:51:33Z z3t0_: Except c depends on the value of x
2017-09-29T03:52:09Z z3t0_: That doesn't even make sense...
2017-09-29T03:52:15Z White_Flame: (loop for x from a to b by (+ x 2) ...)
2017-09-29T03:52:28Z beach: White_Flame: That won't work.
2017-09-29T03:52:40Z beach: White_Flame: The BY form is evaluated once.
2017-09-29T03:52:44Z z3t0_: it's circular logic
2017-09-29T03:52:44Z White_Flame: ah
2017-09-29T03:52:54Z beach: (loop for x = a then (depend-on a c) until (= x b) do ...)
2017-09-29T03:53:05Z White_Flame: or use one of the DO forms instead of loop
2017-09-29T03:53:20Z White_Flame: do it a bit more manually because it's kind of manual with LOOP anyway
2017-09-29T03:54:45Z beach: For example: (loop for x = 1 then (+ x x 1) until (> x 100) collect x)
2017-09-29T03:54:46Z z3t0_: ill try that hmm
2017-09-29T03:55:04Z z3t0_: I just realised that what i am trying to do is far too complicated and unnecessary
2017-09-29T03:55:22Z z3t0_: I'll just use a more approximate algorithm and add some redundancy to make up for the difference
2017-09-29T03:56:20Z shrdlu68: (loop for x = a then (+ x c)...
2017-09-29T03:56:45Z White_Flame: if loops start getting funky with accumulation/exits/whatnot I often just pull up LABELS and do a recursive version
2017-09-29T03:57:45Z White_Flame: LOOP _can_ do a ton of stuff, but that doesn't mean you always should wrangle it in there
2017-09-29T03:59:14Z shrdlu68: beach: The slime set-up worked, thanks.
2017-09-29T03:59:56Z beach: Anytime!
2017-09-29T04:04:11Z z3t0_: okay so just to recap
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2017-09-29T04:04:38Z z3t0_: how do i increase the variable of a for in a loop by something in a do
2017-09-29T04:04:45Z White_Flame: make sure your electrolytics are in the right polarity when you recap..
2017-09-29T04:04:46Z White_Flame: oh
2017-09-29T04:04:49Z z3t0_: haha
2017-09-29T04:05:12Z White_Flame: (incf a) ?
2017-09-29T04:05:23Z White_Flame: (incf a delta), too
2017-09-29T04:05:39Z z3t0_: would that stop the default adding 1?
2017-09-29T04:05:45Z White_Flame: it's just a lexical variable, for all intents and purposes
2017-09-29T04:05:53Z White_Flame: why would it?
2017-09-29T04:06:02Z turkja: jmercouris: I believe... :) Sometimes i try find copies online and if the book is interesting, i get a physical copy. but i'm getting old... :D
2017-09-29T04:06:03Z beach: z3t0_: If you want that, then use for x = ... then ...
2017-09-29T04:06:05Z z3t0_: how would I make it do that then
2017-09-29T04:06:21Z z3t0_: oh okay got it
2017-09-29T04:06:41Z White_Flame: so, to first-cap, you want to normally increment XOR do a custom increment?
2017-09-29T04:06:48Z beach: z3t0_: Or just use (loop with x = ...   do (setf x ...))
2017-09-29T04:07:17Z z3t0_: so would that keep it looping?
2017-09-29T04:07:26Z z3t0_: AH okay nevermind
2017-09-29T04:07:34Z z3t0_: I think I'm starting to grasp how LOOP works haha
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2017-09-29T04:11:02Z beach: z3t0_: I suggest you read chapter 22 in PCL.
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2017-09-29T04:26:40Z z3t0_: im doing loop for x=112 then()
2017-09-29T04:26:54Z z3t0_: but clearly this is wrong since it says then is an unknown keyword
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2017-09-29T04:28:10Z beach: z3t0_: You need to read a basic text on Common Lisp.
2017-09-29T04:28:24Z beach: x=112 is a symbol.
2017-09-29T04:29:15Z beach: z3t0_: In general, you need to respect the spacing rules (imposed by the standard or by style rules) of Common Lisp programs.
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2017-09-29T04:43:43Z jmercouris: z3t0_: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
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2017-09-29T04:44:25Z jmercouris: turkja: even more reason to read on a kindle, you increase the font size :P
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2017-09-29T04:45:45Z turkja: haha
2017-09-29T04:46:08Z z3t0_: hmm okay I'm a bit confused
2017-09-29T04:46:21Z z3t0_: I have a debug after a let statement so I can see what all the new variables are
2017-09-29T04:46:37Z z3t0_: except the locals in the debugger only shows two of the variables, and I set optimize debug 3
2017-09-29T04:47:45Z White_Flame: jmercouris: ctrl-scrollwheel normally zooms on the desktop, and pinch to zoom on mobile, so you don't need to go to such platforms just to zoom
2017-09-29T04:48:05Z Fare: (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (speed 1) (safety 2)))
2017-09-29T04:48:19Z Fare: or (declare ...)
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2017-09-29T04:48:37Z White_Flame: (declare (bugs 0))
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2017-09-29T04:52:41Z z3t0_: that did the trick thanks
2017-09-29T04:53:55Z White_Flame: glad to help ;)
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2017-09-29T05:49:55Z vtomole: clhs environment
2017-09-29T05:49:55Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for environment.
2017-09-29T05:50:41Z beach: clhs 3.2.1
2017-09-29T05:50:41Z specbot: Compiler Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm
2017-09-29T05:50:55Z beach: vtomole: The top-level environment stuff is discussed there.
2017-09-29T05:51:24Z vtomole: beach: Thanks
2017-09-29T05:51:34Z beach: vtomole: The documentation on lexical environments is very skimpy, simply because the nature of those environments is not mandated by the standard.
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2017-09-29T05:53:20Z beach: vtomole: If you tell us what you want to know, we might be able to help.
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2017-09-29T05:54:44Z vtomole: I'm trying to get better at finidng answers on my own. I've been a programmer for more than a year now. I should be reaching that stage :)
2017-09-29T05:55:09Z beach: Fair enough.  Excellent idea, too.
2017-09-29T05:56:58Z Fare: Hint: You never reach that stage.
2017-09-29T05:57:07Z Fare: But you do get closer.
2017-09-29T05:57:17Z beach: It's the search that counts.
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2017-09-29T06:30:06Z shka_: look for cltl2
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2017-09-29T06:30:29Z shka_: reading it is a must for any lisp programmer imho anyway
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2017-09-29T06:49:11Z pankracy: 22:12 < jackdaniel> pankracy: for fiveam you may use fixtures, but they are really no different from with-* macros
2017-09-29T06:49:50Z pankracy: jackdaniel: ok, so what about code which should be run before the whole suite only once?
2017-09-29T06:52:37Z pankracy: any examples?
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2017-09-29T06:54:28Z jackdaniel: no, I never had such need so didn't investigate. You may check out source code if there is something
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2017-09-29T10:53:07Z didi: I have a computation that I estimates will take days. I'm thinking of making an executable so I can let another computer computes it. Any advice? I am thinking of using SBCL's `save-list-and-die'.
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2017-09-29T10:57:37Z scymtym: didi: if you run this once and only on one other computer, just do it in SLIME if you can. making an executable will prevent you from debugging interactively, rescuing intermediate results and using restarts in case of errors (unless you put in the effort to automate that)
2017-09-29T10:58:19Z didi: scymtym: Thanks.
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2017-09-29T11:01:19Z didi: scymtym: Can I disconnect from the remote computer? I remember trying this in the past, and as soon as I disconnected, the computation was cut short.
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2017-09-29T11:12:53Z phoe: didi: it will be interrupted
2017-09-29T11:13:07Z didi: phoe: Yeah... pity.
2017-09-29T11:13:09Z phoe: if you want to be sure that it continues, make a thread
2017-09-29T11:13:21Z didi: Hum.
2017-09-29T11:13:22Z phoe: that setfs some dynamic variable to the result of the function
2017-09-29T11:13:34Z phoe: and defvar that thread
2017-09-29T11:13:42Z phoe: so you a) can check if it finished b) check the computation result
2017-09-29T11:13:50Z phoe: the thread will keep on running even after the slime connection dies.
2017-09-29T11:14:03Z phoe: that's the simplest thing I can think of
2017-09-29T11:14:15Z didi: Cool. Thank you, phoe.
2017-09-29T11:15:10Z phoe: oh, you can use BORDEAUX-THREADS:THREAD-ALIVEP on the thread object
2017-09-29T11:15:14Z phoe: to see if it's done.
2017-09-29T11:15:20Z didi: Cool.
2017-09-29T11:15:43Z phoe: and actually, you don't really need to setf the result to a variable - you can inspect the thread object for the return values of its function
2017-09-29T11:16:08Z phoe: you can (make-thread (lambda () (sleep 3) 42)) and inspect that for example
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2017-09-29T11:16:55Z phoe: in theory, no implementation is required to handle the return values of a thread's function
2017-09-29T11:17:22Z phoe: in practice, I haven't seen an implementation that does *NOT* give back these values to the programmer so they can be used
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2017-09-29T11:18:00Z phoe: which leads me to a very dangerous statement that threads can be used as promises which workworkworkwork and then return something.
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2017-09-29T11:20:07Z didi: Well, it wouldn't be the worst thing I've done to a program. ;-)
2017-09-29T11:20:37Z phoe: using a single thread to achieve a background job isn't even a bad thing.
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2017-09-29T11:24:28Z scymtym: didi: if the remote machine runs linux and your program does not require X, you can put the SLIME session into screen or tmux to handle dis- and reconnecting to the machine
2017-09-29T11:25:35Z phoe: scymtym: I don't think he means running the Lisp image itself.
2017-09-29T11:26:10Z phoe: I think he means - if he connects through SLIME, runs (progn (sleep 1000) (print 2)) and then disconnects, then the SLEEP gets interrupted and 2 never gets printed.
2017-09-29T11:26:22Z didi: scymtym: Ah, right. Tho I think if I use SLIME, I prefer connecting from my Emacs.
2017-09-29T11:26:29Z didi: phoe: Right.
2017-09-29T11:26:51Z phoe: though tmux + sbcl + swank is a very good setup, is what I use.
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2017-09-29T11:28:21Z scymtym: phoe: i'm suggesting not to disconnect SLIME at all since that is just an additional thing that can go wrong
2017-09-29T11:28:42Z phoe: scymtym: network weather can disconnect it anyway
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2017-09-29T11:30:21Z scymtym: not if emacs and the inferior lisp both run on the remote machine inside tmux - that's the point
2017-09-29T11:30:30Z phoe: oooooh
2017-09-29T11:30:35Z phoe: that's the setup you want to achieve
2017-09-29T11:30:46Z phoe: I thought of connecting from a remote emacs.
2017-09-29T11:31:19Z scymtym: yes, since the question was about having a long-running computation on a different machine
2017-09-29T11:31:50Z phoe: and we both thought of different setups
2017-09-29T11:32:24Z phoe: me: Lisp image doing the computation in a separate thread and running swank, and a person connecting to it from remote slime
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2017-09-29T11:32:47Z phoe: you: Lisp image doing the computation normally and running swank, slime and emacs run on the same machine, and a person connecting to the terminal emacs through ssh
2017-09-29T11:32:50Z phoe: AFAIK.
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2017-09-29T12:25:03Z didi: Oh well. My executable attempt failed due to failing to load a dynamic library.
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2017-09-29T12:37:42Z shka: beach: do you have permanent link to your coding style guidliness somewhere?
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2017-09-29T12:42:29Z beach: shka: No.  Sorry.
2017-09-29T12:43:16Z shka: beach: Do you allow me to create permanent link on some hosting, then?
2017-09-29T12:43:58Z beach: Er, sure.  Where do you see it now?
2017-09-29T12:44:22Z beach: Whatever you have seen may be incomplete.
2017-09-29T12:44:23Z shka: your git repository contains bunch of latex files
2017-09-29T12:44:49Z shka: i'm interested in just coding style guidliness
2017-09-29T12:44:50Z beach: OK, sure.  In the SICL directory, there should be something usable.
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2017-09-29T12:45:03Z shka: thanks
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2017-09-29T12:45:56Z beach: Sure.  Let me know how it turns out.
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2017-09-29T12:46:29Z shka: this will take a moment
2017-09-29T12:47:03Z shka: i will need to organize reasonable hosting for my documentation, i will your pdf as well
2017-09-29T12:47:08Z shka: *i will host
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2017-09-29T12:56:54Z beach: Too bad it isn't complete.  And too bad I don't have time to fix that right now.  Oh well.
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2017-09-29T13:04:54Z jackdaniel: uh oh, I have working proof of concept bridging between gray-streams and fd-streams for ext:run-program in ECL
2017-09-29T13:05:26Z jackdaniel: still a mess, but having something what works is nice
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2017-09-29T14:38:39Z Josh_2: Tried asking if I could do my Uni work in a language other than C++, it's an algorithms module. Didn't go well, B&D it is.
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2017-09-29T14:39:06Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
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2017-09-29T14:39:27Z beach: C++ is a terrible choice for an algorithms course.
2017-09-29T14:39:53Z didi: My guessing is that they will mostly use the C part.
2017-09-29T14:39:59Z Zhivago: About the same as python, I'd imagine, given stl.
2017-09-29T14:40:17Z Josh_2: It does make sense that they would use it, we have 3 degrees and one of them are Game Dev who use C++ in industry, so they use C++ for everything.
2017-09-29T14:40:42Z epony: Well Python was intended as a teaching language, I'd say it's the modern BASIC.
2017-09-29T14:41:28Z beach: epony: Where did you learn that Python was intended as a teaching language?
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2017-09-29T14:41:59Z Josh_2: I guess to lower their work load they can't let others use another language because they would have to learn a little. I guess 11 hours of lectures a week is a little much for them.
2017-09-29T14:42:24Z epony: I think I read it on the Wikipedia page some time ago.
2017-09-29T14:42:48Z Zhivago: Guido has been pretty keen on saying that python was intended as an educational language, fwiw.
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2017-09-29T14:43:50Z beach: Interesting.  I had no idea.
2017-09-29T14:43:53Z epony: As a followup to his previous language, which I don't recall what was named, and I've seen it getting popular in higher education, while it did not exist while I took mine.
2017-09-29T14:44:09Z Zhivago: I don't think C++ used in a C with STL style would have any real problems with algorithms for educational purposes.
2017-09-29T14:44:25Z basket: ABC was an explicitly educational language designed for replacing Pascal in uni courses, Python was an extended spinoff version
2017-09-29T14:44:44Z Josh_2: Other than the face it takes a lot longer to write some C++ than it does Python or CL.
2017-09-29T14:44:55Z Josh_2: fact*
2017-09-29T14:44:58Z beach: Zhivago: I always find that the lack of memory management is a problem for even the simplest data structures.
2017-09-29T14:45:08Z Zhivago: You get vectors and maps and most of the pointer stuff is hidden. The only annoyance is needing to structure things as DAGs, and that's generally not that bad.
2017-09-29T14:45:25Z basket: epony: ABC wasn't really Guido's language, he worked on it but he wasn't a principal designer or anything
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2017-09-29T14:50:23Z z3t0: how do i debug an error in lisp?
2017-09-29T14:50:47Z z3t0: I'm getting an error about some addition with nil, but I don't know which line of my code is doing this so I'm kind of lost
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2017-09-29T14:51:05Z shrdlu68: z3t0: Backtrace.
2017-09-29T14:51:13Z z3t0: but that only shows my functions
2017-09-29T14:51:40Z z3t0: like here is what I am seeing https://i.imgur.com/RYKINbG.png
2017-09-29T14:51:40Z beach: z3t0: Read the SLIME manual for functionality related to the backtrace.
2017-09-29T14:51:44Z z3t0: ah okay
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2017-09-29T14:53:25Z beach: z3t0: It says one of the arguments to an addition is not a number and is instead NIL.
2017-09-29T14:53:33Z z3t0: right
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2017-09-29T14:53:41Z z3t0: and I do addition about four times in the previous function
2017-09-29T14:53:49Z z3t0: I am trying to find which one is causing the error
2017-09-29T14:53:56Z beach: So, you do what the manual says and press the `v' key.
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2017-09-29T14:54:09Z z3t0: but that just shows me an entire function
2017-09-29T14:54:18Z z3t0: and not the specific call to (+) that causes an error
2017-09-29T14:54:22Z beach: Then you have insufficient OPTIMIZE settings.
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2017-09-29T14:54:31Z z3t0: oh.
2017-09-29T14:54:44Z beach: I do this in my .sbclrc: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))
2017-09-29T14:54:48Z z3t0: (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (speed 1) (safety 2)))  is what I have
2017-09-29T14:55:06Z z3t0: I'll try yours
2017-09-29T14:55:34Z z3t0: I found the error, thanks!
2017-09-29T14:55:44Z loke`: beach: What's the name of that SBCL setting that prevents code from setting a higher level of optimisation?
2017-09-29T14:56:04Z beach: I forget.  Restrict compiler policy or something like that.
2017-09-29T14:56:24Z loke`: I had a crash in a third party lib once that led to a failed AVER, because the damn thing used (safety 0) and then used SVREF on something that was not a simple vector.
2017-09-29T14:56:41Z loke`: How I wish I had known abou tthat setting then.
2017-09-29T14:56:47Z loke`: took me ages to debug
2017-09-29T14:57:01Z beach: If you type (apropos "restrict") you will see it.
2017-09-29T14:57:11Z loke`: beach: Thanks.
2017-09-29T14:57:16Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-09-29T15:00:01Z beach: I still don't understand why (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3) is not the default for SBCL.  So many people waste so much time because of this decision.
2017-09-29T15:00:19Z Josh_2: What is the default?
2017-09-29T15:00:34Z beach: I forgot that a long time ago.
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2017-09-29T15:01:59Z Zhivago: People were probably sensitive to the lisp-is-slow argument at the time.
2017-09-29T15:02:15Z didi: beach: What do you do when you have a costly computation to do?
2017-09-29T15:02:39Z beach: Sure, but then, most people who care about that would know to change the settings.  Most people who don't care, don't know the default settings and waste a lot of time.
2017-09-29T15:02:48Z beach: didi: You change the settings.
2017-09-29T15:02:59Z didi: I see.
2017-09-29T15:03:20Z dlowe: the default is 1 (don't care) for everything
2017-09-29T15:04:11Z beach: And I think that's a poor choice, because newbies don't know how to change it, and they are the ones that need the settings I advocate.
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2017-09-29T15:04:31Z beach: More experienced people know to change the settings to fit their needs.
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2017-09-29T15:05:50Z beach: didi: Since you are here.  You need to include slime-indentation in your SLIME setup so that you can get the indentation of LOOP clauses correct.
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2017-09-29T15:06:23Z beach: didi: That way, you can avoid a newline after LOOP and still get the clauses indented right.
2017-09-29T15:07:06Z dlowe: I can't actually find the spot now where it says that.
2017-09-29T15:07:15Z didi: beach: Thank you.
2017-09-29T15:07:39Z didi: I think I have "fancy" setup.
2017-09-29T15:07:54Z dlowe: (declare (optimize debug safety)) is a nice shorthand for newbies
2017-09-29T15:08:16Z didi: Nah, I have a list of contribs instead.
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2017-09-29T15:09:02Z beach: didi: I have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf slime-indentation))
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2017-09-29T15:09:18Z didi: beach: I might steal it.
2017-09-29T15:09:42Z beach: Go right ahead.
2017-09-29T15:09:46Z dlowe: beach: lispworks actually does seem to have those defaults
2017-09-29T15:09:51Z dlowe: maybe the sbcl devs could be convinced
2017-09-29T15:10:02Z beach: I doubt it.
2017-09-29T15:10:02Z didi: beach: Do you have (require :asdf) in your .sbclrc?
2017-09-29T15:10:18Z beach: I do, yes.
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2017-09-29T15:10:33Z didi: Thanks.
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2017-09-29T15:16:19Z rpg: Does anyone else find problems with slime completion?  I find that if I ask it to complete "foo" and there are 2 choices "foobar" and "foobaz", when I click on the former I end up with "foofoobar" instead of "foobar," rendering it useless.
2017-09-29T15:16:45Z rpg: Want to know if it's my misconfiguration or a general problem.  Note: only happens when there are more than one alternative
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2017-09-29T15:21:27Z Bike: yeah, i've seen that
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2017-09-29T15:22:07Z rpg: Bike: Thanks!  That means I'll look into SLIME instead of my giga lines of code in .emacs....
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2017-09-29T16:00:24Z phoe: Xach: congrats!
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2017-09-29T16:01:39Z phoe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15366291
2017-09-29T16:02:10Z basket: Nice
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2017-09-29T16:02:51Z phoe: I know I'm at home when I see Quicklisp news on the main page of HN
2017-09-29T16:03:10Z XachX: Yuck
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2017-09-29T16:04:01Z XachX: Oh well.
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2017-09-29T16:07:00Z phoe: Xach: shit happens, huh
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2017-09-29T16:11:11Z z3t0: hi all
2017-09-29T16:11:13Z z3t0: a quick question
2017-09-29T16:11:35Z z3t0: I am trying to convert a double to a string but am getting something like "02.2323d0)
2017-09-29T16:12:00Z z3t0: how do I stop the d0 from being there, the issue is that I sometimes supply a float and sometimes a double
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2017-09-29T16:12:18Z beach: clhs format
2017-09-29T16:12:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2017-09-29T16:12:39Z z3t0: thanks
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2017-09-29T16:12:47Z beach: clhs 22.3.3
2017-09-29T16:12:48Z specbot: FORMAT Floating-Point Printers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cc.htm
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2017-09-29T16:22:51Z jmercouris: beach: have you memorized the hyperspec chapters/subsections?
2017-09-29T16:23:32Z basket: 22.3 is the only section I know the numbers for
2017-09-29T16:24:57Z z3t0: the issue is that it still provides a d0
2017-09-29T16:26:23Z didi: z3t0: (format nil "~F" 42.7) => "42.7" here
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2017-09-29T16:29:05Z jmercouris: basket: is that a joke about floating point numbers or?
2017-09-29T16:29:26Z Bike: didi: well that's not a double, probably
2017-09-29T16:29:39Z didi: Bike: Ah, true.
2017-09-29T16:29:59Z basket: jmercouris: I've just spent a lot of time looking things up regarding FORMAT :)
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2017-09-29T16:30:30Z Bike: z3t0: you did what? ~f?
2017-09-29T16:30:38Z z3t0: that is working yes
2017-09-29T16:30:41Z z3t0: sorry I was just doing ~a
2017-09-29T16:30:55Z basket: Bike: (format nil "~f" pi) gives me "3.141592653589793" on SBCL and "3.141592653589793d0" on Allegro
2017-09-29T16:32:34Z Bike: weird
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2017-09-29T16:33:13Z Bike: "If both w and d are omitted, then the effect is to print the value using ordinary free-format output;" oh
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2017-09-29T16:39:54Z beach: jmercouris: Definitely not.  My memory is crap.
2017-09-29T16:41:06Z beach: z3t0: the 22.3.3 was for you.
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2017-09-29T17:35:16Z jmercouris: beach: what kind of techniques do you use to compensate your memory as a programmer? (I am asking because my memory is also really bad)
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2017-09-29T17:47:57Z beach: jmercouris: Just the usual stuff, like Unix tools such as grep etc.  Also, I write everything down.  Like if I had some appointment with the tax authorities, like I did recently, I write down the date, the time, who I talked to, what was said, etc.  Then I put it in a file with the date as the name.
2017-09-29T17:49:14Z beach: jmercouris: And I use a calendar program for the day-to-day stuff, and also to remember things like birthdays, my own wedding anniversary, etc.
2017-09-29T17:51:18Z beach: jmercouris: In my code, I write a lot of comments so that I can remember what I was thinking when I wrote the code.  I also try to write a lot of documentation, separate from the code.
2017-09-29T17:51:19Z Josh_2: I find it helps to write down where I left my head, otherwise I'd lose it xD
2017-09-29T17:51:51Z drmeister: On sbcl I'm getting this WARNING:
2017-09-29T17:51:53Z drmeister: redefining PRINT-OBJECT (#<STANDARD-CLASS COMMON-LISP:STANDARD-OBJECT> #<SB-PCL:SYSTEM-CLASS COMMON-LISP:T>) in DEFMETHOD
2017-09-29T17:52:07Z drmeister: There is no line number or anything - any ideas how to figure out where it's coming from?
2017-09-29T17:53:04Z beach: jmercouris: Like this for instance: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer/blob/master/Standard-buffer/update-protocol-implementation.lisp
2017-09-29T17:54:49Z whoman: drmeister: (trace ..) ?
2017-09-29T17:54:49Z basket: drmeister: (setf *break-on-signals* 'warning) ?
2017-09-29T17:55:00Z whoman: ou
2017-09-29T17:57:52Z drmeister: Thanks - those are going to be problematic because I'm running sbcl from a build system written in Python.
2017-09-29T18:00:05Z basket: drmeister: Which build system, out of curiosity?
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2017-09-29T18:47:21Z knobo: Why does not slime-repl-mode-map have any docstring
2017-09-29T18:47:47Z knobo: What is the right way of adding keygindings to slime-repl-mode-map
2017-09-29T18:48:22Z knobo: I have always just done something like: (define-key  slime-repl-mode-map (kbd "C-z") 'slime-repl-delete-current-input)
2017-09-29T18:49:12Z knobo: But now I tried flychek-mode, and it says: reference to free variable ‘slime-repl-mode-map’
2017-09-29T18:49:43Z knobo: So maybe I'm doing it the "right" way.
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2017-09-29T18:59:47Z jmercouris: beach: so basically lots of commenting?
2017-09-29T18:59:57Z jmercouris: beach: that's more or less what I do as well
2017-09-29T19:00:43Z jmercouris: beach: actually it would be interesting to compare your cluffer implementation to my own buffer implementation
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2017-09-29T19:38:30Z jasom: commenting should say what you were thinking when writing the code, not what the code does.  Comments that say what the code does have two problems: If you need them, the code could probably use cleanup, and they will eventually be wrong.  Nobody tests comments...
2017-09-29T19:42:14Z dim: (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'cdr alist-of-lists) :key #'length)
2017-09-29T19:42:27Z dim: the :key #'length reads strange, somehow
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2017-09-29T19:53:08Z cgay: <insert loop vs map/reduce argument here>
2017-09-29T19:54:17Z dim: hehe
2017-09-29T19:54:40Z dim: I like loop, but somehow though of a reduce first
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2017-09-29T19:55:18Z fe[nl]ix: hey cgay :)
2017-09-29T19:55:39Z aeth: loop with collect is usually the fastest solution for generating a list concisely, but it's not always the most straightforward
2017-09-29T19:55:39Z _death: and then why not (reduce #'+ alist-of-lists :key (alexandria:compose #'length #'cdr))
2017-09-29T19:55:58Z cgay: hey fe[nl]ix, do we know each other?
2017-09-29T19:56:10Z dim: (loop :for (nil . l) :in code-blocks-by-dburi :sum (length l))
2017-09-29T19:57:33Z fe[nl]ix: cgay: check /whois :D
2017-09-29T19:58:29Z cgay: I'm asking you instead, like a real person. :-P
2017-09-29T19:58:39Z aeth: I'm not sure about how loop with sum benchmarks relative to reduce with +
2017-09-29T19:59:32Z cgay: oh, hey stelian. :)
2017-09-29T20:00:05Z fe[nl]ix: :)
2017-09-29T20:00:12Z fe[nl]ix: you don't come here very often
2017-09-29T20:00:29Z cgay: aeth: that'll be important when you implement your ray tracer with alist.
2017-09-29T20:00:42Z dim: aeth: here it's processing lists of < 300 items
2017-09-29T20:00:59Z dim: I don't expect any difference, so I picked the loop version, which makes the intention clearer
2017-09-29T20:01:33Z cgay: fe[nl]ix: i have no idea why i'm here.
2017-09-29T20:01:33Z dim: you can almost read it as “sum the length of the lists values in the alist”
2017-09-29T20:02:05Z fe[nl]ix: cgay: nostalgia for the sexpr-based Dylan ?
2017-09-29T20:03:03Z cgay: Not really.
2017-09-29T20:03:15Z cgay: I always liked the infix version well enough.
2017-09-29T20:03:59Z cgay: The only place it was more painful for me was the occasional complex macro.
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2017-09-29T20:07:03Z cgay: fe[nl]ix: more like I'm getting tired of writing Go :(
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2017-09-29T20:11:47Z fe[nl]ix: cgay: I feel your pain
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2017-09-29T20:25:40Z fe[nl]ix: I just committed a pull request from May 13, 2016 :D
2017-09-29T20:25:51Z fe[nl]ix: lots of free time here
2017-09-29T20:28:36Z cgay: fe[nl]ix: what are you working on?
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2017-09-29T21:30:01Z jasom: Xach: Any chance of switching from sha-1 to something newer before SHA verification ships standard?
2017-09-29T21:32:39Z XachX: jasom: I use sha256??
2017-09-29T21:33:08Z jasom: XachX: SHA-512/256 would probably be a better choice, or SHA-3; I suppose it depends on how often you want to change it
2017-09-29T21:33:37Z jasom: XachX: Do you use ironclad?
2017-09-29T21:34:08Z XachX: jasom: no
2017-09-29T21:34:25Z jasom: XachX: where do your hash functions come from?  Selecting one that exists is always easier
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2017-09-29T21:34:45Z XachX: jasom: I wrote it.
2017-09-29T21:34:51Z jasom: ah
2017-09-29T21:35:02Z varjag: anyone seen slyrus recently?
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2017-09-29T21:35:54Z jasom: SHA-512/256 is both more secure and faster on 64-bit hardware compared to SHA-256, so it's usually a strictly better choice
2017-09-29T21:36:28Z jasom: the exception is for very short inputs
2017-09-29T21:36:54Z _death: XachX: what happens if you sign a bad system? do you plan on having a blacklist?
2017-09-29T21:36:58Z XachX: Tag bits
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2017-09-29T21:37:50Z XachX: _death: I don’t sign systems, I sign hashes. Not sure about bad ones. Do you have a suggestion?
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2017-09-29T21:38:42Z jasom: XachX: the two solutions for "oops I signed the wrong thing" are expiration and revocation.  The first would mean that signatures become invalid after a certain time, the second would require phoning home when verifying hashes.
2017-09-29T21:39:09Z _rumbler31: optimize
2017-09-29T21:39:11Z _rumbler31: oops
2017-09-29T21:39:31Z jasom: XachX: either one could be added later I think, just having signatures and verifying hashes is a big setup up from neither.
2017-09-29T21:40:04Z jasom: s/phoning home when verifying hashes/phoning home when verifying signatures/
2017-09-29T21:40:42Z _death: XachX: is the hash not of the file containing the system(s)?.. I've not thought about this much, so I don't have any particular mechanism in mind.. just wondering about that scenario.. also I've seen you take the least 512 bits of the message, why?.. and I've not noticed any RSA padding?
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2017-09-29T21:43:23Z Xach: _death: the hash is of the .tgz of the release, which contains the system
2017-09-29T21:44:31Z _death: Xach: right.. that's what I had in mind
2017-09-29T21:45:13Z drmeister: Xach: Did you see my response to your query about that test you asked me to run?
2017-09-29T21:46:10Z drmeister: I ran into an error that may be a clasp error or may not be - we are actively working on the runtime as we speak.
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2017-09-29T21:47:29Z Xach: _death: In general, the answer to "why did you do X" is "because that's what i believe the RFC requires" - if there's a specific concern I may be able to clarify
2017-09-29T21:47:39Z Xach: drmeister: i saw that, you mentioned that the backtrace might not be useful?
2017-09-29T21:47:45Z Xach: drmeister: I don't think I saw the backtrace.
2017-09-29T21:48:39Z _death: Xach: I see
2017-09-29T21:50:26Z drmeister: There was nothing in it - that's why it wasn't useful.  I'm also working on the backtrace code :-)
2017-09-29T21:51:20Z Xach: _death: for the 512 bit thing, i believe that is taking 512 bits of the signature algorithm result, not the message
2017-09-29T21:51:58Z drmeister: Ask Bike or myself next week again if we don't ask you about it.
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2017-09-29T21:52:14Z drmeister: We are in the process of consolidating a bunch of new code.
2017-09-29T21:52:28Z didi: Speaking of defaults, SBCL should have more than 2 MB of control stack size. ;-)
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2017-09-29T21:53:14Z Xach: drmeister: thank you for trying it. i would have to guess that if it fails on clasp it may be a clasp bug, as it works ok on at least clisp, abcl, sbcl, and ccl
2017-09-29T21:55:18Z _death: Xach: by "message" I am referring to the (ciphertext) value resulting from the modular exponentiation
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2017-09-29T21:55:44Z didi: I wonder if it is possible to calculate the proportion of recursion depth to control stack size.
2017-09-29T21:56:00Z didi uses 32 MB
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2017-09-29T22:08:34Z jasom: didi: I don't know how SBCL allocates its stack, but the naive way would add memory overhead proportional to the control stack size for each live thread
2017-09-29T22:10:08Z jasom: didi: the thing that gets me is cffi:with-foreign-object will always stack alocate on SBCL; I wrote my own with-foreign-heap-object for this reason.
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2017-09-29T22:10:43Z didi: jasom: Interesting.
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2017-09-29T22:14:26Z Xach: _death: I will review
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2017-09-29T22:29:30Z stylewarning: Xach: when do you cut the QL release (i.e., when do you do your final git pull's)?
2017-09-29T22:29:52Z stylewarning: There were two patches I made at the last hour that I hope go into three projects :O
2017-09-29T22:29:55Z Xach: stylewarning: the morning of the release
2017-09-29T22:29:56Z stylewarning: three*
2017-09-29T22:29:59Z stylewarning: I see, awesome!
2017-09-29T22:30:28Z stylewarning: #OperationFixLisp
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2017-09-29T22:36:33Z ebrasca: stylewarning: #OperationFixLisp is empy.
2017-09-29T22:36:57Z aeth: No, it's *classified*. Big difference.
2017-09-29T22:37:56Z ebrasca: What is not good in lisp?
2017-09-29T22:38:21Z ebrasca: pi instead of +pi+
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2017-09-29T22:46:10Z ebrasca is afk.
2017-09-29T22:46:51Z pjb: Bah! (defpackage "MY-LISP" (:export "+π+")) (defconstant MY-LISP:+π+ cl:pi)
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2017-09-30T01:14:25Z stylewarning: It would be nice if Lisp had constant lexicals
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2017-09-30T01:16:02Z gilberth: What exactly do you miss?
2017-09-30T01:17:47Z stylewarning: Me?
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2017-09-30T01:18:28Z gilberth: Yes. Do you miss that the compiler would warn or error, if you attempt to setq a lexical constant?
2017-09-30T01:18:42Z stylewarning: Error, yes
2017-09-30T01:18:52Z gilberth: Write a macro for that.
2017-09-30T01:19:04Z stylewarning: That’s too hard for me to write
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2017-09-30T01:19:41Z gilberth is thinking.
2017-09-30T01:20:09Z stylewarning: (let-constant ((x 1)) (symbol-macrolet ((y x)) (setq y 2)))
2017-09-30T01:21:33Z gilberth: I guess we need to trampoline with symbol-macrolet'ing the constant lexicals to regular macros and let the SETF then issue the error.
2017-09-30T01:23:26Z stylewarning: What about more general macro expansions?
2017-09-30T01:23:36Z stylewarning: Anyway you’d need a code walker or something
2017-09-30T01:23:45Z stylewarning: It’s a very hard macro to write
2017-09-30T01:23:54Z gilberth: I do not think you need a code walker.
2017-09-30T01:24:57Z Xach: hi gilberth.
2017-09-30T01:25:37Z gilberth: hi there.
2017-09-30T01:26:49Z stylewarning: gilberth: oh I misunderstood what you said, yes that works in a kind of unpleasant way
2017-09-30T01:27:31Z stylewarning: (If I require the message to be “Error: Can’t set a constant lexical X”)
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2017-09-30T01:30:18Z stylewarning: And erroring at compile time is hard
2017-09-30T01:31:02Z gilberth: Hmm.
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2017-09-30T01:33:30Z stylewarning: One day I’ll try to make SBCL also a good “programmable compiler”
2017-09-30T01:33:49Z stylewarning: It would be nice if there were supported APIs to change or augment the compilation process
2017-09-30T01:33:55Z gilberth: http://paste.lisp.org/+7NNS
2017-09-30T01:34:24Z gilberth: A first attempt.
2017-09-30T01:35:11Z gilberth: Delete the G.BUST, that was another attempt.
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2017-09-30T01:42:00Z gilberth: http://paste.lisp.org/+7NNT
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2017-09-30T01:43:24Z didi: When I'm trying to increase the performance even of `assoc': https://paste.debian.net/hidden/f53a712c
2017-09-30T01:43:48Z didi: The key is a CONS, by the way.
2017-09-30T01:45:06Z stylewarning: gilberth: not too shabby
2017-09-30T01:45:09Z gilberth: You could add a SETF-expander for CONST to get nicer diagnostics.
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2017-09-30T01:47:40Z gilberth: For that CONST could have two arguments: The original lexical variable^Wconstant name and the store variable. It then could print a proper error message.
2017-09-30T01:48:21Z gilberth: The compiler macro takes care, that this implies no performance impact.
2017-09-30T01:49:22Z stylewarning: If this macro can be perfected, I think I’d use it for all my Lisp code
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2017-09-30T01:51:19Z gilberth: Here you are: http://paste.lisp.org/+7NNT/1
2017-09-30T01:52:19Z stylewarning: Let’s make it into a quicklisp package with tests!
2017-09-30T01:52:51Z didi: Uh, I know a key has to be there, so I can use DO and not check for the final of the list.
2017-09-30T01:53:25Z didi: s/final/end
2017-09-30T01:53:53Z stylewarning: didi wat r u doing
2017-09-30T01:54:31Z didi: stylewarning: Trying very hard to optimize a function. Some could say _too_ hard.
2017-09-30T01:54:41Z stylewarning: For fun?
2017-09-30T01:54:45Z didi: No, for work.
2017-09-30T01:54:55Z stylewarning: Is it a bottleneck
2017-09-30T01:54:59Z didi: Yeap.
2017-09-30T01:55:06Z stylewarning: What function
2017-09-30T01:55:10Z didi: 1 s
2017-09-30T01:55:31Z didi: stylewarning: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/1fe8422a
2017-09-30T01:56:06Z gilberth: I got confused about quoting levels, this one should work: http://paste.lisp.org/+7NNT/2
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2017-09-30T01:56:23Z stylewarning: didi this looks like it can be made fast
2017-09-30T01:56:44Z didi: stylewarning: I sure hope so.
2017-09-30T01:57:51Z stylewarning: gilberth: I’ll try it out
2017-09-30T01:58:31Z gilberth: For a full version, we should do syntax checks on the bindings and add CLET*
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2017-09-30T02:00:52Z gilberth: And we would need to grok declarations for the constant lexicals.
2017-09-30T02:02:06Z stylewarning: that sounds easy enough
2017-09-30T02:02:54Z _rumbler31: anyone run into this before? trying to start slime/swank from melpa http://paste.lisp.org/display/357260
2017-09-30T02:03:06Z gilberth: Yes, there are only such and such many declarations. Type declaration would need to rewritten for the new store gensym.
2017-09-30T02:03:21Z gilberth: But: Do we have constant special variables?
2017-09-30T02:03:24Z _rumbler31: M-x slime finds my lisp and loads the swank code and starts the swank server, but the slime side and the swank side aren't talking to each other
2017-09-30T02:03:59Z stylewarning: I take that back, i think declarations are not easy
2017-09-30T02:04:22Z stylewarning: constant special doesn't make sense
2017-09-30T02:05:01Z gilberth: Just go through all declarations in the body and pull those out, which apply to new bindings and rewrite them for the gensyms. I think this will be tendious but easy.
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2017-09-30T02:07:55Z gilberth: Actually we only need to rewrite declarations.
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2017-09-30T02:15:52Z Bike: you can't just keep declarations for the symbol macrolet?
2017-09-30T02:16:32Z Bike: actually, i don't understand why there are symbol macros expanding into another lexical macro?
2017-09-30T02:16:43Z gilberth: Hmm, do say TYPE declarations apply to symbol macros?
2017-09-30T02:16:51Z Bike: they do
2017-09-30T02:17:05Z gilberth: Because we need to catch the SETQ or SETF case.
2017-09-30T02:17:20Z Bike: setq expands symbol macros though
2017-09-30T02:17:45Z gilberth: It does. We need to catch writing to those symbols.
2017-09-30T02:17:47Z Bike: i mean if it didn't you'd be up a creek anyway...
2017-09-30T02:19:07Z gilberth: The SETF-expander is the entity, which catches write attempts. And I see no other way to catch those. As you cannot define SETF expanders for a symbol alone.
2017-09-30T02:19:27Z Bike: could you have (clet ((x foo)) bar) expand into (let ((g foo)) (symbol-macrolet ((x (const 'x g))) bar))
2017-09-30T02:19:30Z didi: It feels dirty, but I'm thinking it is safe to declare variables as fixnum. I doubt I will compare strings longer than a fixnum.
2017-09-30T02:19:44Z Bike: didi: strings longer than fixnums can't exist
2017-09-30T02:19:48Z Bike: clhs array-dimension-limit
2017-09-30T02:19:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_dim.htm
2017-09-30T02:19:53Z didi: Bike: So there we go.
2017-09-30T02:20:04Z didi: Thank you.
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2017-09-30T02:20:12Z gilberth: Bike: I believe not.
2017-09-30T02:20:43Z gilberth: The macro expansions is interpreted in the lexical environment the original form is in, not the lexical environment the macro is defined in.
2017-09-30T02:20:56Z Bike: So?
2017-09-30T02:21:03Z didi: This has to be the ugliest function I've ever written. And the type declarations aren't helping.
2017-09-30T02:21:27Z didi: Helping with the beauty contest. They helped the performance.
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2017-09-30T02:21:59Z Bike: i mean right now it's (let ((g foo)) (macrolet ((m () '(const 'x g))) (symbol-macrolet ((x (m))) bar))) right?
2017-09-30T02:22:20Z gilberth: Bike: Perhaps you are right.
2017-09-30T02:22:22Z gilberth thinks.
2017-09-30T02:23:19Z gilberth: Sure: No need for that extra macro. CONST would fill that purpose!
2017-09-30T02:23:37Z Bike: yeah, that's what was confusing me, like you already defined the operator...
2017-09-30T02:24:28Z gilberth: Well, macros in CL can be confusing at times. But you are absolutely right, I don't need that GENSYM'd macro.
2017-09-30T02:24:39Z Bike: definitely confusing
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2017-09-30T02:32:13Z gilberth: http://paste.lisp.org/+7NNT/3
2017-09-30T02:33:58Z jack_rabbit: How do people generally handle defining size_t when working with cffi?
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2017-09-30T02:39:00Z _death: grovel
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2017-09-30T02:42:00Z jack_rabbit: neat.
2017-09-30T02:44:56Z stylewarning: gilberth: are you going to do the honours of quicklisping this
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2017-09-30T02:45:49Z gilberth: stylewarning: Am I? Do you want a CLET package on Quicklisp?
2017-09-30T02:45:57Z stylewarning: You bet I do
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2017-09-30T02:46:51Z _death: maybe you should use it for a while and see if it's a good idea
2017-09-30T02:47:41Z stylewarning: REALLY I just wish there was a CONSTANT declaration
2017-09-30T02:47:50Z gilberth: stylewarning: I never for myself saw the need of a CLET; It is fun to implent it, sure.
2017-09-30T02:47:59Z stylewarning: You never need it really
2017-09-30T02:48:11Z stylewarning: It just makes your intent clearer
2017-09-30T02:49:00Z stylewarning: Like Rust’s no mutability by default
2017-09-30T02:49:03Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2017-09-30T02:49:07Z stylewarning: Unless you specify
2017-09-30T02:49:10Z gilberth: Well, I am more concerned about stupid compilers. I used a symbol-macrolet from time to time, because the compiler was not smart enough to identify a constant lexical as such.
2017-09-30T02:49:48Z stylewarning: That’s why I wish that the interface to this stuff was a declaration
2017-09-30T02:49:57Z gilberth: That is: I wrote (symbol-macrolet ((foo-size 42)) ...) to get the compiler to inline 42.
2017-09-30T02:50:03Z stylewarning: Yeah
2017-09-30T02:51:37Z gilberth: But there the concern was not about to catch writes to 'foo-size'. It is lexical and it is therefore within a single function, which shouldn't bee too large and most of the time written by one person.
2017-09-30T02:52:17Z gilberth: However your concept of a CONSTANT declaration is fine. Why can I define constant specials? But no constant lexicals? This is not orthogonal.
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2017-09-30T02:54:37Z stylewarning: Because constantness isn’t a dynamic concept
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2017-09-30T02:54:59Z stylewarning: Suppose you had functions F G H
2017-09-30T02:55:05Z stylewarning: F and G call H
2017-09-30T02:55:16Z stylewarning: F declares X as special and constant
2017-09-30T02:55:23Z stylewarning: G declares X as special
2017-09-30T02:55:31Z stylewarning: H had a setq on X
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2017-09-30T02:56:39Z stylewarning: You could check a bit somewhere that the binding sets, but it seems more trouble than it’s worth
2017-09-30T02:58:13Z gilberth: Sure it is. And being truely special, that is open for rebinding dynamically, an being constant contradict itself. Common Lisp has no global lexicals, which would solve that.
2017-09-30T02:58:41Z gilberth: But I agree, that something like (declare (constant x)) would make sense.
2017-09-30T02:59:13Z stylewarning: gilberth: I’ll pay you real paper money if you implement it in SBCL :D
2017-09-30T02:59:59Z gilberth: LOL. How much? And what is it excatly, what you want?
2017-09-30T03:00:16Z stylewarning: Idk we can negotiate
2017-09-30T03:00:57Z stylewarning: SB-EXT:CONSTANT declaration for lexical and static global vars
2017-09-30T03:01:35Z gilberth: That doesn't sound too hard.
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2017-09-30T03:02:34Z stylewarning: Well message me and we’ll work something out (:
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2017-09-30T03:03:52Z gilberth: Sure.
2017-09-30T03:04:07Z gilberth: Hi there.
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2017-09-30T03:04:52Z stylewarning: Hi
2017-09-30T03:05:35Z gilberth: Are you joking or is there a real business case behind this?
2017-09-30T03:06:07Z stylewarning: Real case. A slightly incremental improvement to some huge code base
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2017-09-30T03:12:04Z _rumbler31: for the log record gods, my problem was that I had somehow shutdown my loopback interface.  ifup lo0 fixed it
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2017-09-30T03:43:20Z Fare: did nikodemus fall off the face of the earth?
2017-09-30T03:43:32Z Fare: he hasn't replied to mail and/or PR in a while
2017-09-30T03:44:14Z Fare: same with gabor melis
2017-09-30T03:46:19Z Fade: good question. I was trying to build sb-cga with a current sbcl the other day, and it's failing.
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2017-09-30T03:50:10Z stylewarning: Has SBCL gone too far??
2017-09-30T03:50:36Z Fade: what do you mean?
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2017-09-30T03:51:08Z stylewarning: Just saying something obnoxious
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2017-09-30T03:53:00Z Fare: Fade: use the patches on github.com/fare-patches
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2017-09-30T03:53:24Z Fade: it looked like maybe an asdf thing; was that the case?
2017-09-30T03:53:40Z Fare: Fade: yes, I have patches that I sent him months ago
2017-09-30T03:53:49Z Fade: thanks, Fare
2017-09-30T03:53:50Z Fare: no answer in 6 months => unmaintained code
2017-09-30T03:55:09Z Fade: :(
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2017-09-30T03:57:13Z Fade: hum... I don't see an sb-cga repo there, Fare
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2017-09-30T04:22:19Z jack_rabbit: Is there a good way to convert a generic array to an array of (unsigned-byte 8)
2017-09-30T04:22:51Z jack_rabbit: Like if I have an array of 32 bit integers
2017-09-30T04:23:36Z Fare: Fade: the patch is actually in madeira-port that sb-cga depends on
2017-09-30T04:23:54Z Fade: ahh. Okay. thank you.
2017-09-30T04:25:44Z |3b|: jack_rabbit: if you mean an array with values from 0 to 255, COERCE
2017-09-30T04:25:48Z Fare: for patches to things not on github, or not in git at all --- shall I create a github repo from just the latest tarball, then apply my patch? Or shall I just publish a diff in a repo full of diffs?
2017-09-30T04:26:27Z jack_rabbit: For clarification, if the array is #(#xDEADBEEF #xCAFEBABE) I would like #(#xDE #xAD #BE #EF #xCA #FE #BA #BE) or #(#xEF #xBE #xAD #xDE #xBE #xBA #xFE #xCA) depending on endianness
2017-09-30T04:26:30Z |3b|: if you have arbitrary values that need to be broken up in to some encoding, will need to either loop over it to disassemble manually (with LDB for example) or find some library to do so
2017-09-30T04:26:54Z Fade: well, as a consumer of said patches, it'd be most convenient to create a github repo with the patches integrated.
2017-09-30T04:27:18Z |3b|: (or play tricks with some FFI API's memory access functions, or maybe use some implementation specific thing)
2017-09-30T04:28:20Z |3b| thinks the nibbles library does that sort of thing, probably a few others i can't remember at the moment
2017-09-30T04:28:56Z Fare: lichteblau also disappeared from the community :-(
2017-09-30T04:29:48Z jack_rabbit: |3b|, interestingly enough, I'm just trying to coerce lisp arrays into something I can pass to cffi.
2017-09-30T04:29:58Z jack_rabbit: Maybe I should have asked that.
2017-09-30T04:30:54Z |3b|: with ffi, i usually just use static-vectors
2017-09-30T04:31:33Z |3b|: though if you need to change endianness you still might need to copy manually
2017-09-30T04:31:45Z Fare: Fade: if from tarball, is it OK if I only import the latest, rather than the "entire" history of tarballs?
2017-09-30T04:32:02Z Fade: I would say yes
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2017-09-30T04:32:08Z Fare: ok, will do
2017-09-30T04:34:30Z stylewarning: Fare I’ve noticed the disappearances as of late too
2017-09-30T04:36:43Z jmercouris: stylewarning: life happens
2017-09-30T04:37:15Z stylewarning: jmercouris: there was something I wanted to say to you but I think you had left
2017-09-30T04:37:18Z Fade: we're a small community. our bus-factor is usually pretty close to 1. :(
2017-09-30T04:37:44Z stylewarning: So many opportunities to make it better!
2017-09-30T04:42:41Z Fade: I think we need as many hands as we can get. :)
2017-09-30T04:43:12Z Fade: particularly those hands that are domain wizards in a critical ecosystem component.
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2017-09-30T04:51:45Z jmercouris: stylewarning: still here
2017-09-30T04:52:12Z jmercouris: stylewarning: I'm hoping you're going to tell me how to fix my dylib linking errors :D?
2017-09-30T04:52:35Z stylewarning: What errors
2017-09-30T04:52:57Z jmercouris: it's a long story, if you're interested I can cc you on the email
2017-09-30T04:54:04Z stylewarning: Sure
2017-09-30T04:54:13Z Fare: disappearing is one thing. But if you're still in good health, responding that you're not maintaining anymore is the polite thing to do
2017-09-30T04:54:28Z Fade: 1+
2017-09-30T04:54:44Z jmercouris: Fare: yeah, I'd agree with that, some certain level of courtesy
2017-09-30T04:55:21Z Fare: hell, I've stopped officially maintaining ASDF, but I'm still unofficially maintaining it years later
2017-09-30T04:55:36Z jmercouris: Fare: who is the official ASDF maintainer?
2017-09-30T04:59:10Z Fade: Fare: that indeed fixes it. Thanks!
2017-09-30T04:59:42Z Fare: Well, s-dot has disappeared, no need to create a github for it with a patch, anymore!
2017-09-30T04:59:51Z Fare: jmercouris, rpgoldman
2017-09-30T05:03:53Z jmercouris: aha, I C
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2017-09-30T05:07:58Z Fare: so, in the end, I only had to issue new pull requests for cl-org-sampler and cxml-rng
2017-09-30T05:08:21Z Fare: unhappily, slyrus is no longer active, so no one is maintaining his patches to lichteblau's cxml-rng.
2017-09-30T05:09:00Z Fare: in any case, all my asdf-related CL patches are now on github.com/fare-patches/ so I can leave this business with a clean conscience
2017-09-30T05:09:24Z Fade: I have to say, I'm sorry to see you leaves, Fare.
2017-09-30T05:09:30Z Fade: *leave
2017-09-30T05:09:56Z jmercouris: Fare: What are you going to work on now?
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2017-09-30T05:19:25Z Fade: well, my compile is satisfied. Thanks folks. Have a good evening
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2017-09-30T05:21:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-09-30T05:21:55Z beach: gilberth: Welcome back!
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2017-09-30T05:26:14Z stylewarning: Hey beach
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2017-09-30T05:27:14Z beach: stylewarning: You are lucky to get help from gilberth.  He is one of the best Common Lisp hackers I know.
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2017-09-30T05:28:44Z stylewarning: He impressed me well enough!
2017-09-30T05:28:54Z stylewarning: Need all the help I can get
2017-09-30T05:30:03Z beach: That desperate, huh?
2017-09-30T05:30:37Z stylewarning: There aren’t tons of folks in the world who can write Lisp, write good lisp, and hack on difficult things having to do with industrial-grade compilers and runtimes.
2017-09-30T05:30:58Z beach: That's very true.
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2017-09-30T05:31:53Z stylewarning: I’m trying to brainstorm good ways to advertise and recruit for these small to medium sized gigs
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2017-09-30T05:36:32Z JuanDaugherty: not clear what tons of folks would be
2017-09-30T05:36:46Z beach: I think we discussed this in the past.  You may need to find someone to train.  No matter what language you are using, there aren't tons of folks in the world who would fit the bill.
2017-09-30T05:37:12Z WorldControl resists being pinned to langs and pkgs
2017-09-30T05:37:27Z JuanDaugherty does that is
2017-09-30T05:37:29Z stylewarning: beach, yes, training is reasonable
2017-09-30T05:37:35Z Shinmera: I've been trying my hardest to get my Bsc. thesis to involve Lisp, but it seems absolutely nobody wants to have to do with that.
2017-09-30T05:37:55Z JuanDaugherty: although it's hardly the most demeaning thing about wage labor in general
2017-09-30T05:38:07Z beach: Shinmera: Even academia is subject to fads.
2017-09-30T05:38:25Z JuanDaugherty: anyway i'm semi retired and small gigs are ideal for me
2017-09-30T05:38:36Z Shinmera: Yeah. I'm probably going to go for something involving Rust, since at least getting into that has always been on my todo at some point.
2017-09-30T05:38:41Z JuanDaugherty: but I won't kiss any ass to get gigs
2017-09-30T05:38:56Z stylewarning: What do you mean by that?
2017-09-30T05:39:25Z JuanDaugherty: or let myself become an extension of a lang or pkg
2017-09-30T05:39:45Z beach: WorldControl: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2017-09-30T05:39:53Z JuanDaugherty: semi retired, cheap, and can do net billing
2017-09-30T05:40:16Z JuanDaugherty: WorldControl is an identity I'm reserving for bot usage
2017-09-30T05:41:08Z beach: I see.
2017-09-30T05:41:26Z stylewarning: JuanDaugherty: typically we do fixed work fixed price contracts payable by milestone delivery
2017-09-30T05:41:54Z JuanDaugherty is good with that
2017-09-30T05:41:58Z stylewarning: Almost always open source
2017-09-30T05:42:45Z JuanDaugherty: anyway, not to be offtopic, can be reached at juan@acm.org
2017-09-30T05:43:05Z stylewarning: I’ll be happy to shoot you an email w/things I have
2017-09-30T05:44:49Z JuanDaugherty: Acknowledged.
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2017-09-30T07:55:18Z jackdaniel: Fare: around?
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2017-09-30T08:00:52Z beach: jackdaniel: He is in UTC-4, so he is probably asleep.
2017-09-30T08:01:40Z jackdaniel: beach: ah, thanks
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2017-09-30T08:12:11Z DeadTrickster: what's currently the best protobuf lib?
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2017-09-30T08:22:37Z jack_rabbit: https://github.com/knusbaum/cl-sodium
2017-09-30T08:22:56Z jack_rabbit: Would anyone like to check out my workL
2017-09-30T08:23:01Z jack_rabbit: work?*
2017-09-30T08:27:06Z Fare: jackdaniel, kind of
2017-09-30T08:27:42Z Fare: jmercouris: I pay myself to use Gerbil on $secret_project
2017-09-30T08:32:29Z beach: jack_rabbit: In GENERIC-HASH, why do you repeat so much code in the two IF branches?
2017-09-30T08:32:56Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, that's  on my cleanup list.
2017-09-30T08:33:25Z jack_rabbit: Theres another section in SHORT-HASH
2017-09-30T08:33:27Z beach: Same thing in short-hash and also between the two it seems.
2017-09-30T08:33:31Z beach: Right.
2017-09-30T08:33:49Z beach: Indentation is off in short-hash.
2017-09-30T08:34:01Z Fare: but in general I'm more responsive by email or gchat
2017-09-30T08:34:03Z beach: probably due to cut-and-paste followed by editing.
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2017-09-30T08:36:32Z Shinmera: Make emacs auto-indent on yank! https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-functions.el#L19
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2017-09-30T08:42:02Z jack_rabbit: beach, I've updated the file.
2017-09-30T08:43:46Z beach: OK.
2017-09-30T08:44:03Z jack_rabbit: Thanks for the review, btw.
2017-09-30T08:44:07Z beach: Sure.
2017-09-30T08:44:28Z beach: Use three semicolons for top-level comments.
2017-09-30T08:44:57Z beach: And you are inconsistent about it too.
2017-09-30T08:45:42Z jack_rabbit: Yes. The last one is 3 it looks like.
2017-09-30T08:45:52Z beach: Yep.
2017-09-30T08:46:15Z beach: That's all I see.
2017-09-30T08:47:43Z jack_rabbit: Sweet. Thanks again.
2017-09-30T08:47:52Z beach: Pleasure.
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2017-09-30T11:52:19Z phoe: the best symbol name I have seen and used is ||::||
2017-09-30T11:53:39Z Shinmera: The symbol name there is actually just ||.
2017-09-30T11:54:11Z |3b|: wouldn't the name be ""?
2017-09-30T11:54:21Z Shinmera: True.
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2017-09-30T11:54:32Z Shinmera: I should take care to be extra-pedantic :)
2017-09-30T11:55:01Z Shinmera: phoe: Anyway, who did that and why?
2017-09-30T11:57:59Z phoe: Shinmera: yes, but the fully qualified name, symbol || in package ||, unexported
2017-09-30T11:58:13Z phoe: and yes, s/symbol name/symbol/
2017-09-30T11:58:31Z phoe: Shinmera: and I just did, wondering if it would work - and yes, it worked
2017-09-30T11:59:15Z phoe: Side note: how can I access Windows registry from Lisp?
2017-09-30T11:59:29Z |3b|: FFI to whatever API you would use from C?
2017-09-30T11:59:30Z Shinmera: You call out to C or run regedit.exe
2017-09-30T11:59:42Z Shinmera: Also: don't use the windows registry
2017-09-30T11:59:57Z phoe: Shinmera: I need to use the Windows registry to query a value from it.
2017-09-30T11:59:59Z |3b|: don't always have a choice :/
2017-09-30T12:00:11Z phoe: I need to find where a user installed a program, and that value is set in the registry.
2017-09-30T12:00:38Z phoe: I'd make the user input the value themselves because fuck why not, but then I lose on DWIMness.
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2017-09-30T12:03:08Z Shinmera: Just use the default path and ask, in my opinion. It's a one-time thing and a lot of other windows thingies already require you to do that kinda deal anyway.
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2017-09-30T12:03:33Z phoe: Oh well, fine.
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2017-09-30T12:03:59Z newcoder: Are common lisp and elisp same?
2017-09-30T12:04:03Z newcoder: same syntax?
2017-09-30T12:04:03Z Shinmera: No
2017-09-30T12:04:18Z Shinmera: Depends on what you mean by 'syntax'.
2017-09-30T12:04:36Z newcoder: Why no?
2017-09-30T12:04:41Z Shinmera: Because they're not.
2017-09-30T12:04:53Z newcoder: (if ..) (while .. ) (defvar a 5) THESE are same
2017-09-30T12:05:00Z newcoder: (setf a 5)
2017-09-30T12:05:09Z newcoder: (defun myfun()...)
2017-09-30T12:05:13Z newcoder: same in both
2017-09-30T12:05:29Z beach: newcoder: The surface syntax is similar.
2017-09-30T12:05:33Z |3b|: (if a 1 2 3) and (if a 1 ) aren't the same
2017-09-30T12:05:47Z |3b|: oops, second was supposed to be (if aa 1 2)
2017-09-30T12:06:11Z Shinmera: Another trivial example: a and A are different things in elisp, but the same in CL, under standard readtable case.
2017-09-30T12:06:16Z |3b|: elisp allows multiple forms in 'else' part, CL doesn't
2017-09-30T12:06:30Z |3b|: cl also has no WHILE form
2017-09-30T12:06:37Z jackdaniel: no, it doesn't have implicit progn there
2017-09-30T12:07:34Z jackdaniel: ah, right, you were answering question. sorry for speaking before looking at the backlog :)
2017-09-30T12:08:16Z jackdaniel: newcoder: both elisp and cl has common roots, that doesn't mean they are the same or even close to each other
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2017-09-30T12:09:38Z |3b|: #\a vs ?a, #c(1 2) vs no complex numbers
2017-09-30T12:10:46Z newcoder: Why doesn't lisp have (while (..))?
2017-09-30T12:10:55Z Shinmera: Because there's the superior loop.
2017-09-30T12:11:04Z newcoder: What is superior loop?
2017-09-30T12:11:04Z jackdaniel: it is trivial to write while by yourself in CL
2017-09-30T12:11:13Z beach: clhs loop
2017-09-30T12:11:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2017-09-30T12:11:22Z beach: newcoder: ↑
2017-09-30T12:11:23Z jackdaniel: he referes to loop macro, which some consider being a very good dsl
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2017-09-30T12:13:07Z Shinmera: I think the disparity is more that some say it's acceptable, and some say it is satan's undercarriage.
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2017-09-30T12:14:52Z Quasus: simple loop is fine by any standards :) (loop (unless condition (return)) ...)
2017-09-30T12:15:21Z Shinmera: That's neither valid, nor sensible.
2017-09-30T12:15:31Z Shinmera: Well, actually it is valid, but not sensible.
2017-09-30T12:15:52Z Quasus: That's what while does, isn't it?
2017-09-30T12:15:55Z Shinmera: Sensible would be (loop while condition do ..)
2017-09-30T12:16:16Z Quasus: I agree.
2017-09-30T12:16:38Z newcoder: Is learning elisp harder than lisp?
2017-09-30T12:17:07Z beach: newcoder: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-09-30T12:17:29Z jackdaniel: Common Lisp has big standard, but learning programming basics should be similarily hard
2017-09-30T12:17:43Z jackdaniel: minion: tell newcoder about pcl
2017-09-30T12:17:43Z minion: newcoder: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2017-09-30T12:19:02Z turkja: obviously one should learn common lisp and then elisp comes naturally since you need to start tweaking emacs :D
2017-09-30T12:19:32Z jackdaniel: good one :)
2017-09-30T12:20:17Z newcoder: When do we need to learn elisp?
2017-09-30T12:20:28Z newcoder: Where is elisp useful?
2017-09-30T12:20:35Z scottj: newcoder: customizing emacs.
2017-09-30T12:20:56Z newcoder: Explain "customizing emacs" please.
2017-09-30T12:21:08Z scottj: newcoder: I'll respond in #emacs
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2017-09-30T12:52:31Z Josh_2: Afternoon all. I hope you are all well.
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2017-09-30T13:40:23Z phoe: < |3b|> cl also has no WHILE form
2017-09-30T13:40:52Z phoe: |3b|: it's one of the first macro excercises I saw, to write a WHILE using DO
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2017-09-30T14:31:23Z phoe: that feeling when someone uses your library so hard that they actually refactor it from the ground up and make it work with more ASDF features. https://github.com/phoe/asd-generator/pull/6
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2017-09-30T14:39:57Z Shinmera: Wish that would happen to all of my projects so that I can finally retire, knowing that none of my crap code is in use.
2017-09-30T14:40:43Z phoe: ...
2017-09-30T14:40:54Z phoe: I just realized that (loop for ...) refers to a non-existent symbol FOR.
2017-09-30T14:41:05Z phoe: That is therefore freshly interned.
2017-09-30T14:41:40Z phoe: dafuq
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2017-09-30T14:41:59Z Shinmera: Hm?
2017-09-30T14:42:03Z jackdaniel: loop operates on symbol names, so user is not forced to write (loop :for …)
2017-09-30T14:42:12Z jackdaniel: you may write (loop #:for …) if you really care
2017-09-30T14:42:18Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, I know. I just found it really weird.
2017-09-30T14:42:35Z jackdaniel: what is weird in this behavior?
2017-09-30T14:42:42Z phoe: And also causing loop keywords to be interned in every package if the user does not use keywords.
2017-09-30T14:42:57Z phoe: I expected the loop keywords to be in the CL package or something.
2017-09-30T14:42:57Z Shinmera: Oh no, a couple of symbols more. The horror~~~
2017-09-30T14:43:02Z phoe: Shinmera: I don't mind it.
2017-09-30T14:43:14Z phoe: But some people use (loop :for x := (bar) ...)
2017-09-30T14:43:22Z phoe: And some go (loop for x = (bar) ...)
2017-09-30T14:43:31Z phoe: And I use the second.
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2017-09-30T14:43:47Z phoe: And I thought if I could avoid creating these symbols while preserving the non-keyword version.
2017-09-30T14:43:56Z phoe: So I thought, can I just import them from somewhere?
2017-09-30T14:44:10Z phoe: Turns out I can't, nowhere to import them from.
2017-09-30T14:44:44Z Shinmera: Well, this is where you javascriptify the solution: create a new system to provide the symbols :^)
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2017-09-30T14:45:45Z jackdaniel: don't be suprised though, when you overwrite your macro `for' when you define it internally in two packages of yours, which import from this 'helper' package
2017-09-30T14:45:46Z _death: ITER does..
2017-09-30T14:46:26Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: OBVIOUSLY since importing is bad, you'd use the fully qualified names.
2017-09-30T14:46:31Z _death: at least for some of the symbols..
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2017-09-30T14:46:54Z Shinmera: (loop com.business.domain.name.loop.symbols:for ...)
2017-09-30T14:46:57Z jackdaniel: yeah, sounds legit
2017-09-30T14:47:23Z jackdaniel: local-package-nicknames can help, because that might be a little verbose
2017-09-30T14:47:32Z jackdaniel: so it will be (loop loop-keys:for …)
2017-09-30T14:47:57Z Shinmera: Finally, a legitimate reason to push vendors to implement local nicknames!
2017-09-30T14:48:04Z jackdaniel: :_)
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2017-09-30T14:49:11Z jackdaniel: I'm convinced, from new release ECL will have them
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2017-09-30T14:56:02Z phoe: (loop #.(make-symbol "FOR") ...)
2017-09-30T15:03:22Z phoe: (loop #.(#.(find-symbol (concatenate 'string '(#\M #\A #\K #\E #\- #\S #\Y #\M #\B #\O #\L)) :common-lisp) "FOR") ...)
2017-09-30T15:03:31Z phoe: Shinmera: I think I found a solution
2017-09-30T15:03:44Z phoe: or at least am getting closer to it
2017-09-30T15:03:52Z Shinmera: A solution for what?
2017-09-30T15:04:01Z phoe: the FOR symbol issue
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2017-09-30T15:07:50Z Shinmera: Clearly you should include a bitcoin miner that only finds the symbol once it creates a new block with the symbol name in it.
2017-09-30T15:08:20Z Shinmera: (also see: ads including bitcoin miners in JS)
2017-09-30T15:08:41Z _death: just use find-a-symbol: (defun find-a-symbol (name) (do-all-symbols (sym (intern name)) (when (equal (symbol-name sym) name) (return sym))))
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2017-09-30T15:10:25Z _death: the more you use it, the more the existence of do-all-symbols is justified
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2017-09-30T15:14:43Z phoe: why the fuck http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_intern.htm has "Side Effects: None">
2017-09-30T15:14:59Z phoe: this function is modifying the state of the package system
2017-09-30T15:15:52Z Shinmera: Because packages aren't first-class, I guess?
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2017-09-30T15:16:41Z _death: it's not a side effect, it's a main effect :)
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2017-09-30T15:17:06Z phoe: _death: not really
2017-09-30T15:17:13Z phoe: people use INTERN where they should use FIND-SYMBOL instead
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2017-09-30T15:17:24Z phoe: someone was just talking (intern "LOOP" :common-lisp)
2017-09-30T15:17:43Z phoe: and I needed to tell them how UB this is in general, and only accidentally is not UB
2017-09-30T15:18:45Z Bicyclidine: wait, what's UB in general
2017-09-30T15:20:55Z _death: creating new symbols in :cl package, I guess
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2017-09-30T15:37:38Z phoe: undefined behaviour
2017-09-30T15:37:44Z phoe: modifying the COMMON-LISP package
2017-09-30T15:37:47Z phoe: Shinmera: HA! I GOT IT!
2017-09-30T15:37:50Z phoe: (import :for)
2017-09-30T15:38:05Z phoe: now I can write (loop for ...) - and the FOR symbol comes from the KEYWORD package.
2017-09-30T15:39:08Z phoe: I only need to make sure not to import symbols like := or :IF because these will conflict with CL:= and CL:IF.
2017-09-30T15:39:33Z Shinmera: And make sure not to define functions named any of those things.
2017-09-30T15:40:02Z _death: or try to bind them
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2017-09-30T15:47:26Z didi: How do I declare the return type of a function?
2017-09-30T15:48:02Z Shinmera: ftype
2017-09-30T15:48:09Z didi: Shinmera: Thank you.
2017-09-30T15:49:33Z didi: Cool. Lot less (the fixnum ...) declarations.
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2017-09-30T15:54:34Z phoe: didi: these are orthogonal
2017-09-30T15:54:58Z phoe: sometimes THE is required, especially deeper in code
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2017-09-30T16:11:49Z didi: phoe: oic. But in my case, I could take out every (the fixnum (fn ...)).
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2017-09-30T16:29:09Z jmercouris: Fare: you pay yourself? what does that mean?
2017-09-30T16:29:14Z jmercouris: you own your own business?
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2017-09-30T16:32:48Z phoe: didi: yes.
2017-09-30T16:33:03Z phoe: SBCL has enough type inference to take care of that.
2017-09-30T16:33:13Z didi: Nice.
2017-09-30T16:33:47Z phoe: As for inputs, you can use CHECK-TYPE - SBCL will optimize the code accordingly.
2017-09-30T16:34:20Z jmercouris: phoe: so you've never really clued us in, did you find a resolution to the "for" problem? will you integrate bitcoin mining?
2017-09-30T16:34:37Z didi: phoe: I've been using (declare (type TYPE INPUT1)). Is it different?
2017-09-30T16:35:07Z phoe: didi: yes, CHECK-TYPE explicitly errors if the argument fails the type check. The declaration can be ignored.
2017-09-30T16:35:17Z didi: Oh, interesting.
2017-09-30T16:35:21Z didi: Thank you, phoe.
2017-09-30T16:35:50Z phoe: clhs 3.3.1
2017-09-30T16:35:50Z specbot: Minimal Declaration Processing Requirements: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ca.htm
2017-09-30T16:35:52Z phoe: didi: ^
2017-09-30T16:35:58Z phoe: "In general, an implementation is free to ignore declaration specifiers except for the declaration, notinline, safety, and special declaration specifiers."
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2017-09-30T16:36:30Z didi: Understood.
2017-09-30T16:37:23Z Shinmera: Worse, if you fail the declaration, demons might start haunting you.
2017-09-30T16:37:39Z phoe: Oh, right, it's undefined behaviour then.
2017-09-30T16:37:52Z didi: I got a memory fault yesterday. ;-)
2017-09-30T16:37:56Z jmercouris: that sounds pretty extreme, I think there's a typo, you meant to write "daemons"
2017-09-30T16:38:53Z Fare: jmercouris, yes, be your own boss
2017-09-30T16:39:08Z Bike: no, well, when you're using one of those old institutional systems they'll still have a ew pentagrams burnt in rom the last time someone rm -rf / or forgot their login
2017-09-30T16:39:08Z jmercouris: Fare: how's that going?
2017-09-30T16:40:00Z jmercouris: Bike: I'm usually not just casually logged in as root, so I don't understand how people write rm -rf / and have severe consequences
2017-09-30T16:40:08Z jmercouris: I own basically none of the dirs in /
2017-09-30T16:40:12Z jmercouris: only sub-dirs
2017-09-30T16:40:55Z Shinmera: It'll still remove practically everything you care about if you rm -rf / as non-root.
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2017-09-30T16:41:43Z jackdaniel: nasal demons are demons, not daemons
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2017-09-30T16:42:16Z jmercouris: Shinmera: that's why I still run cassettes as my HDD, can C-c in time
2017-09-30T16:42:29Z jmercouris: s/HDD/storage
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2017-09-30T21:02:57Z phoe: hey z3t0
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2017-09-30T21:40:42Z robynewb: Hi ppl. Can a function that takes a function as a formal parameter have a name conflict with an outer function in Common Lisp?
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2017-09-30T21:43:22Z Bicyclidine: variables (including parameters) are bound separately from functions, so no. but you have the right idea.
2017-09-30T21:45:38Z robynewb: I mean: when the name of a function passed as a parameter conflicts with the name of a global function.
2017-09-30T21:46:16Z robynewb: Can that happen?
2017-09-30T21:46:28Z random-nick: functions passed as arguments are bound as lexical variables
2017-09-30T21:46:39Z random-nick: while defuns are bound as global functions
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2017-09-30T21:48:37Z random-nick: and since functions and variables have separate namespaces, they can't conflict
2017-09-30T21:50:06Z robynewb: and what happens if a variable has the same name as that function passed as a parameter?
2017-09-30T21:51:19Z random-nick: whenever or not the argument's value is a function doesn't matter
2017-09-30T21:51:36Z random-nick: because it's always in the variable namespace
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2017-09-30T21:53:54Z Bicyclidine: if you have (defun foo (list) (list list)) then the call is to the global list function, and the variable is the parameter, because lisp-2
2017-09-30T21:54:29Z Bicyclidine: if you have (defvar *list* #'list) (defun foo (*list*) (funcall *list* 17)), then the parameter shadows the global variable and is used rather than the global, which sounds more like what you're thinking of
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2017-09-30T21:56:14Z robynewb: Yes, that is what I meant.
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2017-09-30T22:00:04Z phoe: robynewb: basically, imagine that you have two hash tables or maps.
2017-09-30T22:00:11Z phoe: you have symbols, for example, a symbol named FOO.
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2017-09-30T22:00:42Z phoe: and a single symbol can be mapped to a function object in the function map, and to a value in the variable map.
2017-09-30T22:01:11Z phoe: so when you are looking for a function named FOO, you get a function object, because you're looking in a function map. and when for a variable named FOO, you get a value, because you're looking in a variable map.
2017-09-30T22:01:34Z phoe: the concept is known as Lisp-2, or actually Lisp-N because there's multiple such namespaces and you can create your own, too.
2017-09-30T22:02:01Z phoe: as opposed to Schemes which are Lisp-1 because there's only one namespace like that.
2017-09-30T22:02:50Z robynewb: So they have to deal with that case?
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2017-09-30T22:07:38Z Bicyclidine: they have to deal with it more.
2017-09-30T22:07:48Z Bicyclidine: you can still locally bind functions in lisp, just not with parameters.
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2017-09-30T22:08:07Z Bicyclidine: (defun foo () "outer") (flet ((foo () "inner")) (foo)) => "inner"
2017-09-30T22:11:17Z robynewb: I was thinking about a function like map
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2017-09-30T22:13:41Z Bicyclidine: like how?
2017-09-30T22:14:24Z robynewb: I mean, in that case, you have to pass the function as a parameter.
2017-09-30T22:15:37Z Bicyclidine: well, sure. give it some clever name like 'function'
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2017-09-30T22:20:57Z robynewb: Thank you very much everybody for your answers :) Bye people.
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2017-09-30T23:32:41Z stylewarning: hello folks
2017-09-30T23:33:16Z drmeister: Is there an option to get more information from quicklisp?   Like :verbose or :print?   Those options are accepted but my (ql:quickload "cffi-tests") refuses to produce anything
2017-09-30T23:33:53Z XachX: drmeister: verbose shows stuff.
2017-09-30T23:34:23Z drmeister: If it should - then something else is screwed up (sigh)
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2017-09-30T23:55:45Z Fare: drmeister: once it's downloaded together with its dependencies, just (asdf:load-system "cffi-tests" :verbose t) will work
2017-09-30T23:56:10Z Fare: drmeister, what is the status of clasp?
2017-09-30T23:57:14Z drmeister: Fare: Thank you - at the moment - my guess is clasp is generating code from a very long list (from Babel) that is making llvm go absolutely nuts with some non linear optimization.
2017-09-30T23:57:18Z drmeister: The bigger picture:
2017-09-30T23:58:04Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6mx9kyTX/
2017-09-30T23:58:17Z Fare: is ASDF all up-to-date wrt clasp?
2017-09-30T23:58:23Z drmeister: It appears to be
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2017-09-30T23:58:57Z Fare: do you have funding?
2017-09-30T23:59:26Z Fare: what's the slow-down factor wrt SBCL, these days?
2017-09-30T23:59:56Z Fare: on whatever benchmarks you care to measure