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2017-07-01T01:29:30Z coetry: (love (getf (freenode-channel #lisp) :members)
2017-07-01T01:29:37Z coetry: <3
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2017-07-01T02:27:33Z ludston: )
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2017-07-01T02:42:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone else remember the set of logos for CL implementations someone created?
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2017-07-01T04:17:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: one thing you can do is just right all your queries as stored procedures inside a sql file you version control and then just do a simple SELECT in your lisp code
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2017-07-01T04:17:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: You just have to remember to drop at the top of the file or the like
2017-07-01T04:18:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've had fairly good success with this strategy
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2017-07-01T04:40:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-01T05:19:47Z sam0sung: bros, is there anyone can give me some advice to learn lisp?
2017-07-01T05:20:12Z sam0sung: i'm new to lisp
2017-07-01T05:21:15Z sam0sung: is there anyone here now?
2017-07-01T05:21:40Z aeth: pick a small, realizable project and continuously rewrite it as you learn new things.
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2017-07-01T05:22:31Z aeth: And be open to feedback on this channel to write more idiomatically.
2017-07-01T05:23:12Z sam0sung: thanks,
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2017-07-01T05:23:19Z aeth: There are several books online that you can read. If you already have programming experience, the general recommendation is Practical Common Lisp.
2017-07-01T05:23:38Z aeth: If you do not, the other book's name is iirc A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computing but I'm not 100% sure on that
2017-07-01T05:23:40Z sam0sung: yes, i'm reading this book recently
2017-07-01T05:23:53Z sam0sung: and i've learn c for a while
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2017-07-01T05:26:17Z sam0sung: but i am confuse about the closure?
2017-07-01T05:27:42Z aeth: Scheme references may help you with concepts that Lisp and Scheme have in common like that, such as The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs or The Little Schemer.
2017-07-01T05:29:27Z vtomole: The Little Schemer talks about closures?
2017-07-01T05:29:50Z aeth: I do not recall, but I would not be surprised at all because closures are very basic, and are generally in Scheme stuff because minimalist Scheme stuff uses them more.
2017-07-01T05:30:05Z sam0sung: thanks, my laptop is out of power, i'd to go
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2017-07-01T05:30:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: The Little Schemer is mostly about recursion (at least the parts I got through)
2017-07-01T05:30:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it ends with the implementation of an evaluator for scheme
2017-07-01T05:30:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or "a lisp", not necessarily scheme)
2017-07-01T05:32:04Z aeth: skimming through it, it doesn't look like it gets far enough
2017-07-01T05:32:10Z aeth: It might be in one of its two sequels, which I don't have
2017-07-01T05:33:12Z aeth: it's apparently too basic.
2017-07-01T05:33:27Z beach: vtomole: Are you planning to send me a pull request for the ASDF system definition?
2017-07-01T05:33:35Z aeth: I do remember seeing car and cons defined as Scheme closures several times, though.
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2017-07-01T05:33:52Z aeth: So now I wonder what other books it was in.
2017-07-01T05:34:57Z vtomole: beach: I don't think i've made enough "significant changes
2017-07-01T05:35:56Z aeth: s/car and cons/car, cdr, and cons/
2017-07-01T05:36:15Z vtomole: aeth: I shamefully still don't understand closures even after reading a lot of writing about it.
2017-07-01T05:36:19Z beach: vtomole: OK, up to you.  You can either do small pull requests so that I can review each one easily, or you can make sure that what you submit has already been discussed here.
2017-07-01T05:37:14Z vtomole: beach: First one seems more efficient. I'll send a request right now.
2017-07-01T05:37:26Z beach: OK, thanks!
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2017-07-01T05:40:09Z beach: Merged, thanks!
2017-07-01T05:40:53Z beach: vtomole: What is it that you don't understand about closures?
2017-07-01T05:42:03Z vtomole: I don't even understand the definition. Google always gives me non-relevant pages like "closures in javascript" or "python closures"
2017-07-01T05:42:14Z beach: I see.
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2017-07-01T05:42:42Z beach: A closure is usually defined as a function that has some variables captured in its environment.
2017-07-01T05:42:55Z beach: A function is code + environment.
2017-07-01T05:43:10Z beach: But for global functions, the environment is just the global environment.
2017-07-01T05:43:23Z vtomole: So  functions with local variables? What does captured mean?
2017-07-01T05:43:51Z beach: Basically that some non-global variables are part of the environment of the function.
2017-07-01T05:44:16Z beach: For example, (let ((x 10)) (defun ff (y) (+ x y)))
2017-07-01T05:44:34Z beach: Here, X is part of the non-global environment of FF.
2017-07-01T05:45:12Z vtomole: Each function creates it's own environment at run-time?
2017-07-01T05:46:24Z beach: Yes, but that environment is an extension of its captured environment.  In my example, the environment consisting of the global environment augmented with X is created and captured at compile time.  Then at run-time, when FF is called, that environment is augmented with Y.
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2017-07-01T05:47:45Z vtomole: I see
2017-07-01T05:47:49Z beach: ... So when (+ X Y) is evaluated, the current environment contains three "layers",  the innermost layer has Y in it.  The next layer has X, and the last layer is the global environment.
2017-07-01T05:48:06Z vtomole: ah
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2017-07-01T06:04:50Z vtomole: beach: What is conditions.lisp supposed to do?
2017-07-01T06:05:12Z beach: vtomole: Define condition types to be signaled by the main code.
2017-07-01T06:05:29Z beach: You can see that in the model file that I indicated.
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2017-07-01T06:09:52Z vtomole: What are the conditions "must-be" for packages?
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2017-07-01T06:10:33Z beach: I usually determine that when I see the need to call ERROR.
2017-07-01T06:11:38Z beach: So for example, there is a call: (error "symbol ~s not accessible in package ~s"...)
2017-07-01T06:12:04Z beach: That seems to suggest a condition named SYMBOL-MUST-BE-ACCESSIBLE or something like that.
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2017-07-01T06:13:50Z beach: The conditions named MUST-BE-... usually happen as a result of a type error.  An argument of the wrong type was give.  For example (package-name 234).  In such a situation, you might want to signal a condition called MUST-BE-PACKAGE-DESIGNATOR or something like that.
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2017-07-01T06:41:45Z beach: vtomole: In other words, you don't sit down and try to figure out what condition types to create ahead of time.  You wait until you write some code that detects an error situation, and then you make up a condition type for that situation.
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2017-07-01T07:58:29Z otwieracz: Do you know any Common Lisp analog t o https://docs.python.org/3/library/struct.html ?
2017-07-01T07:58:42Z otwieracz: If there's one, I'd rather not implement one by myself.
2017-07-01T08:03:18Z beach: I think there is a library named binary-types or something like that.
2017-07-01T08:03:49Z beach: https://github.com/frodef/binary-types
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2017-07-01T08:04:14Z otwieracz: I've also found „packet 
2017-07-01T08:04:26Z otwieracz: which might be useful
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2017-07-01T08:08:00Z phoe: beach: otwieracz: binary-types has a compilation bug on SBCL, just so you know. (AFAIK it was binary-types, or some other similar library)
2017-07-01T08:08:41Z beach: OK, thanks.
2017-07-01T08:08:51Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I remember the set of logos for CL implementations, I think I created it actually :D
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2017-07-01T08:17:02Z phoe: lower quality, 15 MB PDF: https://mega.nz/#!uZwnCJbB!1A0apLSXMndRfaw38mMoMcF88JUH_mQBfWOll5LYw90
2017-07-01T08:17:09Z phoe: higher quality, 84 MB PDF: https://mega.nz/#!TIR1DBhJ!QzRqJj7Km9HYBVH0Vm0Cs0N_zMSIQiBzTMUh5j05338
2017-07-01T08:17:47Z phoe: I hope you can extract the PDF for individual transparent PNG images. If not, poke me - I'll dig around for the source images.
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2017-07-01T08:27:27Z otwieracz: What's the *efficient* way of changing dimension and changing the value in simple-array? Eg, I've got #(1 2 3) and I want to add 0 at the beginning, so it will be #(0 1 2 3).
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2017-07-01T08:33:08Z phoe: I don't think standard CL has mechanisms for that.
2017-07-01T08:33:15Z phoe: I was writing my own code to achieve this, back in the day.
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2017-07-01T08:47:48Z beach: otwieracz: Does it have to be an array?
2017-07-01T08:48:36Z beach: otwieracz: I have a library that implements a very efficient (in practice) editable sequence.
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2017-07-01T08:49:11Z beach: otwieracz: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Flexichain
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2017-07-01T08:51:01Z jack_rabbit bookmarks flexichain
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2017-07-01T08:53:58Z phoe: beach: I love how your libraries come with documentation in .tex format.
2017-07-01T08:54:08Z beach: Thanks!
2017-07-01T08:55:11Z beach: otwieracz: In particular, it avoids that some common degenerate cases ruin performance, such as when the sequence is used as a queue.  An ordinary gap-buffer implementation would move every element very frequently then, but Flexichain uses a circular buffer, so this case is very efficient.
2017-07-01T08:58:05Z otwieracz: Yeah, I'll see. Thanks.
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2017-07-01T09:20:22Z beach: So the DEFTYPE lambda list has the same syntax as the macro lambda list.  They differ only in how an absence of an explicit default value for an optional or a &key parameter is interpreted.  For the macro lambda list the value NIL is then used, and for the deftype lambda list, it is the symbol *.
2017-07-01T09:20:26Z beach: So, it seems silly to duplicate all the grammar rules just for this difference.  Maybe I should just have a slot in the class that describes the parameter indicating that no form was given.
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2017-07-01T09:30:20Z Reinisch: Anyone familiar with this? Getting a "Symbol "NUMBER-EQUAL" not found in the LISP-UNIT package."
2017-07-01T09:30:44Z Reinisch: I'm on the latest quicklisp, but no dice.
2017-07-01T09:31:23Z Reinisch: several google results lead to versions of "With quicklisp version 24-01-2017 it is loades"
2017-07-01T09:31:44Z Reinisch: do I need to figure out how to revert my quicklisp?
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2017-07-01T09:37:28Z Reinisch: for context, I'm trying to load gsll via (ql:quickload "gsll")
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2017-07-01T11:27:14Z phoe: Reinisch: this looks like a regression
2017-07-01T11:27:29Z phoe: try to find the maintainer of the lisp-unit package on GitHub and ask them about it
2017-07-01T11:27:44Z phoe: and try to find the last git commit for which it works
2017-07-01T11:28:03Z phoe: once you do, clone the repository to ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and checkout that commit
2017-07-01T11:28:22Z phoe: so QL loads the local-projects version and not the one it downloads automatically from Quicklisp.
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2017-07-01T11:59:14Z otwieracz: How can I perform binary AND/OR on two numbers?
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2017-07-01T11:59:33Z _death: logand/logior
2017-07-01T11:59:58Z otwieracz: than you!
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2017-07-01T13:17:13Z stara: How to call to function arguments?
2017-07-01T13:17:24Z _death: clhs funcall
2017-07-01T13:17:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm
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2017-07-01T13:19:33Z phoe: stara: also
2017-07-01T13:19:35Z phoe: clhs apply
2017-07-01T13:19:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2017-07-01T13:19:44Z phoe: depends on how you have your arguments
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2017-07-01T13:23:55Z loke`: And if all you have is funcall, you can always funcall #'apply...
2017-07-01T13:24:54Z _death: you can also (setf (fdefinition 'magic) fn) (magic) ;)
2017-07-01T13:27:16Z loke`: Hmm... is there any magic way you can think of that allows you to emulate APPLY without, you know... APPLY.
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2017-07-01T13:28:04Z _death: (case (length args) (0 (funcall fn)) (1 (funcall fn (first args))) (2 ...))
2017-07-01T13:28:16Z loke`: oh wow...
2017-07-01T13:28:33Z loke`: And a macro looping over ARAGUMENTS-MAX (or whatever it's called) to generate that?
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2017-07-01T13:30:02Z _death: also (eval `(funcall ,fn ,@args))
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2017-07-01T13:32:10Z stara: How in emacs on the left editor, on the right result?
2017-07-01T13:32:23Z _death: C-x 3
2017-07-01T13:34:28Z loke`: _death: right. EVAL
2017-07-01T13:34:32Z loke`: Didn't think of that one
2017-07-01T13:35:12Z _death: when there's magic involved, you can bet there's an eval solution :)
2017-07-01T13:36:29Z edgar-rft: don't tell that to people like David Copperfield
2017-07-01T13:38:34Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/gRNXnk/emacsik.png
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2017-07-01T13:39:17Z stara: On the left I have CL-USER> , I want a editor . ;/
2017-07-01T13:39:44Z _death: In the beginning God evaled the forms and the env.  The env was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep..
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2017-07-01T13:40:29Z _death: stara: so you switch to another buffer
2017-07-01T13:40:42Z _death: stara: I suggest you do a `C-h t' and read through
2017-07-01T13:41:35Z _death: stara: you can also use the slime scratch buffer.. write a form and evaluate using C-j, the result will appear in the same buffer
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2017-07-01T13:46:04Z stara: _death I want on the left editor, who compiling.
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2017-07-01T13:47:24Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/mAHq7k/emacsuu.png
2017-07-01T13:47:58Z _death: on the left you have the emacs scratch buffer, not the slime scratch buffer
2017-07-01T13:48:25Z loke`: _death: Is there such a thing as the SLIME scratch buffer?
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2017-07-01T13:48:53Z _death: yes.. I use the slime-selector, so I just do `C-c s s' to switch to it
2017-07-01T13:49:18Z loke`: ps -ef
2017-07-01T13:49:23Z loke`: oops
2017-07-01T13:50:42Z stara: In how mode I have to RUN, to work on the left editor, on the right compiled result?
2017-07-01T13:50:54Z nydel: i recently asked whether to compile slime in ~ or to use packages to use slime on a pubnix with emacs25 & sbcl-latest but no slime. answer given was 'use quicklisp' -- i hadn't done slime-helper in a while, it is remarkable. thanks kindly to whoever advised, i can't recall who it was.
2017-07-01T13:51:29Z loke`: nydel: Could have been anyone here. I think most people on this channel would have given that suggestion.
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2017-07-01T13:53:08Z nydel: loke`: it's been a long while since i had to ready slime as a pubnix end-user.. at least 5 emacs ago. it was a whole todo & resulted in one of those home directories you never wanna move anything in etc which i just hate that feeling
2017-07-01T13:53:50Z nydel: that is, slime-helper & quicklisp are amazing! woo.
2017-07-01T13:54:26Z loke`: nydel: What is pubnix?
2017-07-01T13:54:57Z nydel: loke`: public access unix system. what i meant was a system where i didn't have root or sudo grouping
2017-07-01T13:55:36Z loke`: nydel: Right... But I'm wondering under what circumstance you would _ever_ need to make system-wide changes just to get SLIME working?
2017-07-01T13:55:42Z _death: I also use slime-helper, but since I have my own slime fork I had to modify it a bit.. guess the path could be pulled out into a variable
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2017-07-01T13:58:06Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/eTDDSk/emacsio.png
2017-07-01T13:58:26Z nydel: loke`: i believe i also needed to build an up-to-date sbcl in my own ~ ... there was a crippled version installed for users where `which sbcl` would give you it, so it involved quite a bit of symbolic linking and hacky nonsense to get the results i wanted
2017-07-01T13:58:34Z _death: stara: M-x lisp-mode
2017-07-01T13:58:41Z stara: I have on the left program to compling, how it's compiled?
2017-07-01T13:58:42Z _death: stara: in the editor buffer
2017-07-01T13:59:04Z _death: stara: then you can use C-M-x to evaluate forms
2017-07-01T14:00:35Z stara: Ctrl+left_alt+x ?
2017-07-01T14:02:09Z loke`: C-c C-k to compile and load the entire file.
2017-07-01T14:03:26Z stara: Is undefined.
2017-07-01T14:03:39Z nydel: why do i think those things are C-c C-c & C-c C-l respectively
2017-07-01T14:04:17Z nydel: i.e. stara if you just do (print 'hello) in the left buffer, then - while in that buffer - do C-c C-l - it should be interpreted in the right-side REPL instance
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2017-07-01T14:06:32Z stara: I want it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymSq4wHrqyU
2017-07-01T14:07:04Z stara: I write text and i clicked slime -> compile and have it compiled.
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2017-07-01T14:08:01Z stara: But, on the left side IT NOT HAVE SLIME.
2017-07-01T14:08:09Z stara: But, on the right side it Yes have slime.
2017-07-01T14:08:26Z stara: But, on the left side it not have slime and not i compiled file. ;(
2017-07-01T14:12:11Z stara: Why, then I press enter, it immediately compiling to file.
2017-07-01T14:12:25Z stara: I want compiled to after clicked slime -> compilation -> compile defun.
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2017-07-01T14:14:02Z ebrasca: stara: what do you mean?
2017-07-01T14:16:02Z stara: The code has to compile when I want, not automatically.
2017-07-01T14:16:58Z ebrasca: stara: I don't understand what do you mean with it.
2017-07-01T14:17:04Z beach: stara: Nothing compiles automatically.
2017-07-01T14:17:21Z beach: stara: It is compiled only as a result of some action on your part.
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2017-07-01T14:24:14Z nydel: if you write it into the interpreter, it will evaluate.. but nothing on the "left side" i.e. outside the REPL buffer is going to compile without being told to do so
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2017-07-01T14:25:12Z stara: I want to compile code but no slime button.
2017-07-01T14:25:50Z loke`: stara: There is no "button". You have to use the keyboard.
2017-07-01T14:26:34Z White_Flame: there's usually a SLIME menu, though, which might be what's meant
2017-07-01T14:26:56Z loke`: I see. I rarely use that one :-)
2017-07-01T14:27:02Z nydel: it can be good to look through the SLIME menu if learning, to see what keystrokes are for what
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2017-07-01T14:27:56Z zm: nydel: C-h m
2017-07-01T14:28:41Z White_Flame: stara: did you do what _death said and entered M-x lisp-mode in the left buffer?
2017-07-01T14:29:01Z White_Flame: (Meta-x, which is usually Alt-x)
2017-07-01T14:29:29Z stara: I press M-x slime.
2017-07-01T14:29:37Z White_Flame: so, no?
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2017-07-01T14:30:12Z nydel: White_Flame: shouldn't it be 'slime-mode' to make a buffer behave with slime completion suggestion etc? or is 'lisp-mode' the same thing
2017-07-01T14:30:40Z White_Flame: I'm not an emacs-head, but SLIME mode gets attached to lisp mode, or somesuch
2017-07-01T14:31:28Z zm: common-lisp-mode
2017-07-01T14:31:29Z nydel: i usually start 'emacs foo.lisp' then M-x 'slime' return, switch to foo.lisp buffer & 'slime-mode' ... then good to go
2017-07-01T14:31:36Z White_Flame: yeah, slime-mode in a lisp buffer toggles slime on & off for that buffer, leaving it in raw lisp mode or not
2017-07-01T14:31:56Z White_Flame: right, because you started up your lisp buffer before there was any slime connection
2017-07-01T14:32:24Z White_Flame: (and probably before the slime elisp stuff hooked in, maybe)
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2017-07-01T14:33:09Z White_Flame: any lisp buffer you open up _after_ starting slime will automatically be attached to a slime connection
2017-07-01T14:33:17Z White_Flame: (in my experience)
2017-07-01T14:34:47Z nydel: ah that's interesting. if i open foo.lisp where scratch is, after launching slime, i don't have to 'slime-mode' that buffer, if i understand.
2017-07-01T14:34:56Z nydel: better way to do it i think. thanks
2017-07-01T14:35:01Z White_Flame: certainly better
2017-07-01T14:35:37Z nydel: it's a few keystrokes because of keybindings i made but there's a right way to do things and a messy too-many-keybindings way
2017-07-01T14:35:41Z White_Flame: you can have multiple slime connections, and there's a notion of a 'current' one that newly opened lisp buffers will be attached to, as well.  I don't think I've intentionally used that, though
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2017-07-01T15:16:22Z oleo: hello
2017-07-01T15:16:44Z oleo: i have a problem with antik-master-ad6432e3-git
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2017-07-01T15:18:43Z oleo: grid/tests/augment.lisp mentions number-equal from lisp-unit package but when i try to run my image which loads these systems i get an exception which throws me into the debugger where it says Symbol "NUMBER-EQUAL" not found in the lisp-unit package
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2017-07-01T15:19:14Z oleo: i checked lisp-unit, the function is there and exported
2017-07-01T15:19:31Z oleo: so why can grid/tests/augment.lisp not refer to it ?
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2017-07-01T15:19:52Z oleo: does the module tests in the antik-base.asd file have to depen on lisp-unit too ?
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2017-07-01T15:22:17Z oleo: tho in augment.lisp it's referred to as lisp-unit:number-equal, but since augment.lisp does not depend on lisp-unit that package is not accessed and so the symbol from lisp-unit not loaded into the running system ?
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2017-07-01T15:22:31Z oleo: wait a bit
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2017-07-01T15:24:14Z oleo: nope i tried to load lisp-unit again but it does not change anything
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2017-07-01T16:14:23Z phoe: does postmodern have a function version of its QUERY macro?
2017-07-01T16:26:15Z phoe: I'm trying to write up a simple function that, given a filename, reads the contents of that file and returns a function that accepts &rest arguments and, when called, executes the query.
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2017-07-01T16:30:14Z phoe: But the way postmodern works makes it impossible for me to do so - the result of the QUERY macro depends on the number of &rest arguments passed to QUERY.
2017-07-01T16:31:16Z phoe: oh wait - maybe I should be using PREPARE instead...
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2017-07-01T16:32:37Z phoe: yes, DEFPREPARED is exactly what I want.
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2017-07-01T16:55:57Z phoe: guys
2017-07-01T16:56:02Z phoe: I just realized why ESRAP is called ESRAP
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2017-07-01T17:00:01Z jdz: It's never too late.
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2017-07-01T17:01:29Z edgar-rft: espaniol rap?
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2017-07-01T17:03:27Z dim: phoe: have a look at YeSQL for Clojure, I think it would be good to implement the same specs: https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql
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2017-07-01T17:04:18Z phoe: dim: haha.
2017-07-01T17:04:23Z phoe: https://github.com/TBRSS/cl-yesql
2017-07-01T17:04:36Z phoe: I attempted to use it - it's still not mature enough for usage though.
2017-07-01T17:04:50Z phoe: so right now I'm writing a poor man's yesql myself.
2017-07-01T17:04:59Z phoe: jdz: sdrawkcab ti daer
2017-07-01T17:05:44Z dim: oh nice I missed its existance
2017-07-01T17:06:08Z dim: why not contributing to cl-yesql?
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2017-07-01T17:08:02Z dim: this overlord integration sounds gratuitous tho
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2017-07-01T17:09:24Z phoe: I have no idea why it does not work and I have no knowledge of the Overlord system that ist is based upon.
2017-07-01T17:09:55Z phoe: it is based upon*
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2017-07-01T17:10:29Z phoe: I might want to take a look at it when I'm feeling a bit better than now - for now I filed a bug report there with all information I can gather.
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2017-07-01T17:59:24Z oleo: there's definetly some bitrotting in play via git
2017-07-01T17:59:46Z oleo: otherwise i don't know why some libs which load ok at first don't after a while.....
2017-07-01T18:00:16Z oleo: some detachment stuff or so
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2017-07-01T18:00:39Z TruePika: #'RATIONALIZE is _very_ implementation-dependent, right?
2017-07-01T18:01:11Z TruePika: I'm asking in comparison to #'RATIONAL, which the hyperspec says is (but it is as dependent as the floating point arch used is)
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2017-07-01T18:02:12Z TruePika: what I'm asking is if a cutoff is specified _in the language_ for #'RATIONALIZE's precision
2017-07-01T18:03:32Z TruePika: or, what ensures that (rationalize (float 333333333/1000000000 1.0)) ==> 1/3
2017-07-01T18:04:12Z Bike: it says "to the accuracy of the underlying floating point representation", so i think giving back 1/3 would actually not be conformant for base two floats
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2017-07-01T18:04:56Z TruePika: that was an actual execution, this is for #'RATIONALIZE not #'RATIONAL
2017-07-01T18:05:15Z TruePika: #'RATIONAL is the exact-from-eg-IEEE754
2017-07-01T18:06:12Z Bike: huh. guess i don't know then
2017-07-01T18:06:26Z TruePika: 1/3 is an expected output from #'RATIONALIZE, but I'm wondering what specifies that it would be 1/3 instead of w/e #'RATIONAL would return
2017-07-01T18:06:37Z TruePika: if it is part of the language, or part of the impl
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2017-07-01T18:07:43Z TruePika: maybe I'll check the SBCL and CCL sources later today
2017-07-01T18:07:59Z TruePika: or more likely SBCL and CLisp, since I have both of those already
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2017-07-01T18:52:25Z jcowan: I'd like to know about the practical use of restarts.  Are they something people make much use of?
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2017-07-01T18:57:49Z malice: jcowan: Well, pretty much the same you'd use Exceptions in other languages
2017-07-01T18:57:53Z malice: but more flexible
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2017-07-01T18:58:34Z _death: I use them all the time during development.. programmatic use is more rare
2017-07-01T18:59:06Z malice: Well, this year's ECL lightning talk featured restarts
2017-07-01T18:59:25Z malice: in more original way
2017-07-01T18:59:42Z jcowan: malice: Slides available?
2017-07-01T19:00:05Z malice: jcowan: not sure, let me check
2017-07-01T19:00:38Z jcowan: Thanks
2017-07-01T19:01:00Z jcowan: I'm interested in selling restarts to a community that doesn't use them but could
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2017-07-01T19:01:21Z jcowan: But while I understand them in principle, I've never used them myself
2017-07-01T19:03:33Z _death: even simple uses, say with-simple-restart/cerror/ccase etc. at choice points are very convenient
2017-07-01T19:04:33Z malice: jcowan: sorry, the lightning talks were not recorded
2017-07-01T19:04:38Z malice: jcowan: what would you like to know?
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2017-07-01T19:04:55Z _death: you can come up with higher-level operators that expose them and are more problem oriented.. like the ones in https://github.com/death/dbus/blob/master/utils.lisp
2017-07-01T19:04:59Z malice: and what commuinity is it?
2017-07-01T19:05:27Z jcowan: see above: I want to convince people that restarts (and by extension resumable exceptions) are a Good Thing.  Resumable exceptions without restarts seem fairly useless to me.
2017-07-01T19:05:36Z jcowan: In particular, having more than one restart available
2017-07-01T19:05:48Z malice: Sure.
2017-07-01T19:05:59Z malice: Are they users of dynamic languages?
2017-07-01T19:06:02Z malice: Like Python, Ruby, Lua?
2017-07-01T19:06:03Z jcowan: Yes
2017-07-01T19:06:11Z _death: or "robust" variants of functions like robust-mapcar in https://github.com/death/gnusdumps/blob/master/driver/main.lisp
2017-07-01T19:06:14Z malice: Great. Then tell them the difference.
2017-07-01T19:06:20Z malice: Have you ever coded anything in Python in REPL?
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2017-07-01T19:06:46Z malice: e.g. crawler, or some machine learning algorithm, or anything, really
2017-07-01T19:07:04Z malice: you forgot/didn't know that page can 404. Or you forgot to include small detail in parsing script.
2017-07-01T19:07:15Z malice: After some time of running, your program crashes an all you see is stack trace
2017-07-01T19:07:18Z malice: that would be Python
2017-07-01T19:07:30Z malice: in Common Lisp, you often have a sensible restarts set from the beginning, like "retry"
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2017-07-01T19:07:38Z malice: or "use-value" in case you haven't used the value
2017-07-01T19:07:45Z malice: that makes the whole REPL experience much more pleasant
2017-07-01T19:08:05Z malice: Because REPL is all about being able to do things on the run - and restarts are another thing you can do on the run; you can handle errors on the run.
2017-07-01T19:08:14Z jcowan: I'm actually addressing Lisp folks who have resumable exceptions but only ever use terminating ones
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2017-07-01T19:09:00Z malice: It all depends on the usage.
2017-07-01T19:09:28Z malice: I've been making a small crawler lately. I've used restarts in there.
2017-07-01T19:10:00Z malice: It worked like this: I knew where things can go wrong(lost connection, site sent malformed html, saving file had problems for some reason)
2017-07-01T19:10:37Z malice: I wrapped these in restart-case and provided restarts like try-again to try to get website again, or save-again, something like that
2017-07-01T19:10:46Z malice: Some of restarts just logged the failure and carried on
2017-07-01T19:11:03Z malice: I never used them myself, because the infrastructure was doing that for me(otherwise I'd have to sit by PC)
2017-07-01T19:11:11Z malice: Is that the usage you have in mind?
2017-07-01T19:11:20Z jcowan: It's a good example, thanks
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2017-07-01T19:11:42Z jcowan: cerror etc. are very simple, but they only have one restart, whereas it's the case for multiple restarts that I want to make.
2017-07-01T19:11:43Z malice: If you don't know what to do, you can terminate your program, of course
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2017-07-01T19:12:01Z malice: Sure.
2017-07-01T19:12:10Z malice: You can always provide some of the built-in restarts
2017-07-01T19:13:15Z _death: jcowan: I don't know what you mean by "only have one restart".. they add a restart to the "stack" of restarts.. it's true that their restart cluster consists of just one
2017-07-01T19:13:56Z jcowan: That's what I meant
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2017-07-01T19:15:32Z _death: https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/scan.lisp here continue-scanning for the delimited-message-scanner introduces two of them.. and you can also imagine useful programmatic use
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2017-07-01T19:22:04Z _death: KMP wrote some good papers about the condition system, I assume you're familiar with them
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2017-07-01T19:23:19Z jcowan: I am, yes.
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2017-07-01T19:51:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: did you make this in a vector format? or PNGs
2017-07-01T19:52:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been wanting to use them as desktop background photos for subtle lisp evangelism at work :)
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2017-07-01T20:16:20Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: PNGs
2017-07-01T20:16:28Z phoe: 4000x4000 Photoshop files actually
2017-07-01T20:16:35Z phoe: I did not make them in vectors.
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2017-07-01T20:40:30Z phoe: Is it compliant to unintern from KEYWORD package?
2017-07-01T20:42:29Z Xach: phoe: at first glance, I think so.
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2017-07-01T20:43:01Z Xach: phoe: what is the goal of such uninterning?
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2017-07-01T20:45:31Z otwieracz: How sould I read from usocket TCP socket?
2017-07-01T20:45:53Z otwieracz: I am unable to find anything working on (usocket:socket-stream my-connection).
2017-07-01T20:45:59Z otwieracz: Ah, important note - I need to read binary.
2017-07-01T20:46:15Z otwieracz: I am receiving The value #<BASIC-TCP-STREAM ISO-8859-1 (SOCKET/14) #x3020067F018D> is not of the expected type (AND CCL::BINARY-STREAM CCL:INPUT-STREAM). for the whole time.
2017-07-01T20:46:47Z phoe: Xach: I decided that one of my packages should be called :FOO
2017-07-01T20:46:55Z phoe: but then I thought again and decided to name it to :BAR
2017-07-01T20:47:09Z phoe: so I created a new package, moved all the stuff, and did (DELETE-PACKAGE :FOO)
2017-07-01T20:47:16Z phoe: and now I'm left with a lone hanging keyword
2017-07-01T20:47:26Z phoe: so I thought, "can I get rid of :FOO altogether?"
2017-07-01T20:47:43Z phoe: so I thought, "is it defined behaviour to unintern keywords though?"
2017-07-01T20:47:47Z phoe: so I asked.
2017-07-01T20:48:14Z Xach: phoe: do you tend to keep careful track of keywords?
2017-07-01T20:48:21Z phoe: Xach: no, not at all
2017-07-01T20:48:32Z phoe: I most likely won't notice one more or one less symbol anywhere
2017-07-01T20:48:40Z phoe: so it's not about a lone symbol
2017-07-01T20:48:43Z phoe: but more about the general question
2017-07-01T20:48:55Z phoe: is it defined behaviour to unintern keywords
2017-07-01T20:49:07Z Xach: Yes, I think it is.
2017-07-01T20:49:25Z Xach: I remember an argument someone made rejecting some software because it created three packages and "real" software should use only one
2017-07-01T20:49:37Z Xach: "such package pollution is bad"
2017-07-01T20:50:14Z phoe: d'oh
2017-07-01T20:50:23Z phoe: look at these people who use one-package-per-file
2017-07-01T20:50:37Z phoe: blasted defilers of the holy Lisp's way of working
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2017-07-01T21:11:27Z jcowan: https://lisper.in/restarts is the sort of thing I was looking for: a practical example employing user-defined restarts.
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2017-07-01T21:15:27Z phoe: jcowan: I didn't know that link
2017-07-01T21:15:29Z phoe: thanks for posting it
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2017-07-01T21:20:20Z jcowan: phoe: Do you object to having to put a whole package in a single file, or to having to have a file contain no more than one package, or both?
2017-07-01T21:20:41Z jcowan: I can see objection #1, but objection #2 seems sound as a guideline.
2017-07-01T21:20:59Z jcowan: (not an absolute law)
2017-07-01T21:22:03Z phoe: jcowan: I was being sarcastic first of all (and that does not transmit well through the Internet)
2017-07-01T21:22:23Z phoe: and I was refering to a style of coding where each single .lisp file has a respective package
2017-07-01T21:22:36Z phoe: this style is somewhat supported with modern ASDF and some people like it
2017-07-01T21:23:15Z jcowan: I would cheerfully have multiple files per package, but rarely would want to define more than one package in a file.
2017-07-01T21:23:26Z jcowan: (dynamic use of packages excepted)
2017-07-01T21:24:18Z phoe: ^
2017-07-01T21:24:38Z phoe: multiple files OK inside a package, multiple packages NOK inside a file
2017-07-01T21:24:53Z jcowan: We agree then
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2017-07-01T21:28:19Z jsjolen: Hey I have a pretty specific Q regarding MOP which I haven't been able to answer myself, can I shoot away?
2017-07-01T21:28:48Z phoe: jsjolen: shoot
2017-07-01T21:29:21Z phoe: jcowan: for agreement brings strength and disagreement brings insight
2017-07-01T21:29:22Z phoe: (and this creepy guy from the corner brings Perl hotfixes into production environments)
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2017-07-01T21:32:32Z jsjolen: I've got a list of symbols (such as T, INTEGER or FOO-OBJECT) representing the specializers of some method. In the MOP you can use METHOD-SPECIALIZERS to get a list of CLOS objects which represent the types the method specialize on. Can I easily create these objects that are returned from M-S from the symbols that represent classes?
2017-07-01T21:32:54Z jsjolen: They are *not* the same as what FIND-CLASS gives you
2017-07-01T21:34:01Z phoe: mop method-specializers
2017-07-01T21:34:01Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-specializers.html
2017-07-01T21:36:00Z jsjolen: (by the way, I think what you could do is create a first-class generic function, make a method for the specializer list and then retrieve the objects as so. It's just a very round about way of doing it)
2017-07-01T21:36:00Z phoe: jsjolen: give me an example of them not being the same
2017-07-01T21:37:18Z phoe: they're either classes or EQL specializers, correct?
2017-07-01T21:37:18Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializers.html
2017-07-01T21:38:44Z jsjolen: Huh. I wrote code to look at the results this morning and it gave me different results. Sorry, I must've been morning sleepy :/
2017-07-01T21:38:51Z phoe: jsjolen: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-methods.html
2017-07-01T21:38:53Z jsjolen: (because yes, they do give me identical results now)
2017-07-01T21:39:06Z phoe: it seems that specializers are connected to their methods and methods are connected to their specializers
2017-07-01T21:39:22Z phoe: so you must fetch the specializer metaobjects from the methods it seems
2017-07-01T21:39:49Z phoe: because if you create new objects, you can perhaps link them to the methods, but then the methods won't be linked to them
2017-07-01T21:40:13Z phoe: tricky question: why do you want to create them?
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2017-07-01T21:41:59Z phoe: because (method-specializers (defmethod foo ((bar (eql 2))) 4)) gives you an implementation-defined specializer metaobject
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2017-07-01T21:42:28Z Bike: it's not implementation defined, it's an eql-specializer.
2017-07-01T21:42:42Z jsjolen: What I *actually* want to do is be given a list of specializer-symbols (like '(integer t sequence)) and then see if a certain generic-function has a method that is applicable to those specializers
2017-07-01T21:43:09Z Bike: (find-method gf qualifiers (mapcar #'find-class symbols) nil), iirc
2017-07-01T21:43:10Z phoe: Bike: implementation-dependent, dammit
2017-07-01T21:43:12Z jsjolen: (compute-applicable-methods require instances of the classes so that's a no go)
2017-07-01T21:43:14Z phoe: I can't into words anymore
2017-07-01T21:43:31Z Bike: phoe: if it follows mop it will be of mop's eql-specializer class
2017-07-01T21:43:50Z jsjolen: Bike:Yeah but that won't find a method which only specializes on T
2017-07-01T21:43:51Z Bike: jsjolen: actually find-method is more specific, this sounds more like compute-applicable-methods-using-classes
2017-07-01T21:43:58Z jsjolen: Aha!
2017-07-01T21:44:12Z Bike: won't work if there are eql specializers involved, though
2017-07-01T21:44:15Z jsjolen: That sounds exactly like the function I want
2017-07-01T21:44:20Z jsjolen: That's okay
2017-07-01T21:44:30Z phoe: Bike: I see
2017-07-01T21:44:39Z Bike: mop eql-specializer-object
2017-07-01T21:44:39Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/eql-specializer-object.html
2017-07-01T21:44:42Z jsjolen: Alright, thanks!
2017-07-01T21:44:44Z Bike: well defined methods and such
2017-07-01T21:44:49Z jsjolen is afk for a bit
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2017-07-01T22:46:27Z phoe: sweet goodness
2017-07-01T22:46:39Z phoe: I just realized how easy it is for me to develop from anywhere in the world
2017-07-01T22:47:08Z nydel: that sounds like a good thing
2017-07-01T22:47:09Z phoe: all it takes is creating a SSH tunnel for swank and using SSHFS to mount a directory that resides in the same location on both remote and local machine
2017-07-01T22:47:31Z phoe: like /home/phoe/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/
2017-07-01T22:47:42Z phoe: so I don't need to play around with emacs's tramp
2017-07-01T22:47:53Z phoe: and C-x C-k works like a charm
2017-07-01T22:48:49Z nydel: cool
2017-07-01T22:49:16Z phoe: I don't even need to git pull anything because I have the whole project mounted locally over SSH
2017-07-01T22:49:36Z phoe: what a time to be alive
2017-07-01T22:51:33Z nydel: loving the excitement, you can do whatever you can imagine phoe !
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2017-07-02T00:17:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I don't really trust network filesystems over WAN connections
2017-07-02T00:19:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, if there was a filesystem built on top of a mosh-like protocol, maybe I'd reconsider
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2017-07-02T03:14:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-02T03:30:09Z Fare: chào anh
2017-07-02T03:31:14Z beach: chào em!
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2017-07-02T04:53:58Z BrownTurds changed the topic of #lisp to: #lisp POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers!
2017-07-02T04:54:18Z BrownTurds: fe[nl]ix,  __main__,  __paul0,  _death,  ``Erik,  a7f4,  aaronjensen,  abbe,  add^_,  adlaistevenson,  adolf_stalin,  adulteratedjedi,  AeroNotix,  aeth,  akkad,  alex_e,  alms_clozure,  amerlyq,  angavrilov,  angerTr0n,  angular_mike_,  antismap`,  AntiSpamMeta,  antoszka,  arbv,  arescorpio,  argoneus:
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2017-07-02T04:55:11Z BrownPoop: !ops i edited the topic lol
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2017-07-02T04:58:30Z PuercoPop changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1
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2017-07-02T04:58:46Z beach: PuercoPop: Thanks!
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2017-07-02T04:59:27Z PuercoPop: np
2017-07-02T04:59:47Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers!
2017-07-02T04:59:56Z BrownPoop: PuercoPop: lol ur pathetic u nigger
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2017-07-02T05:00:44Z beach: PuercoPop: Might have to be done again. :(
2017-07-02T05:00:55Z PuercoPop changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1
2017-07-02T05:01:01Z pillton: p_l?
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2017-07-02T05:01:54Z BrownPoop: xrash: hello
2017-07-02T05:02:09Z xrash: BrownPoop: hi
2017-07-02T05:02:15Z BrownPoop: welcome to the official channel of the Jewish World Order
2017-07-02T05:02:16Z PuercoPop changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1
2017-07-02T05:02:23Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers!
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2017-07-02T05:02:27Z xrash: thanks
2017-07-02T05:02:42Z eck: PuercoPop: please set the channel mode +t
2017-07-02T05:02:48Z PuercoPop: Btw beach, how is SICL coming along?
2017-07-02T05:03:13Z PuercoPop: eck: I'm not a op, The topic is can be modified by anyone!
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2017-07-02T05:03:26Z eck sighs
2017-07-02T05:03:35Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers!
2017-07-02T05:03:44Z pillton: I think felnix and p_l have ops.
2017-07-02T05:03:54Z BrownPoop: pillton: you cannot ban me
2017-07-02T05:03:57Z BrownPoop: nobody can
2017-07-02T05:04:00Z beach: PuercoPop: Slow, but steady progress.  I am working on a library for manipulating Common Lisp source code as concrete syntax trees.  It will allow for better source tracking, both in the compiler and for Second Climacs.
2017-07-02T05:04:10Z BrownPoop: Sigyn k-lined me several times
2017-07-02T05:04:23Z BrownPoop: There is always another VPN exit
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2017-07-02T05:05:21Z PuercoPop: beach: is this related to the modified reader for incremental parsing you were working on?
2017-07-02T05:05:33Z beach: Yes.
2017-07-02T05:05:39Z BrownPoop: PuercoPop: no
2017-07-02T05:05:55Z BrownPoop: the only thing here that is "modified" is your mother's fake tits
2017-07-02T05:06:28Z beach: PuercoPop: The editor needs the compiler in order to determine the role of symbols in expressions in the buffer.
2017-07-02T05:06:51Z BrownPoop: beach: your mom is a buffer
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2017-07-02T05:08:05Z BrownPoop: hi all
2017-07-02T05:08:10Z dtscode left #lisp
2017-07-02T05:08:12Z BrownPoop: the topic is set by me
2017-07-02T05:08:16Z BrownPoop: i am elite hacker
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2017-07-02T05:09:16Z metax: aahahahaha
2017-07-02T05:09:26Z BrownPoop: metax: lol
2017-07-02T05:09:30Z BrownPoop: we own all niggers
2017-07-02T05:09:33Z BrownPoop: hail Hitler
2017-07-02T05:09:40Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-07-02T05:09:49Z BrownPoop: enslave the niggers and teach them to fart on Jew
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2017-07-02T05:10:52Z metax: well it's not a secret freenode is owned by white people
2017-07-02T05:11:00Z BrownPoop: lol
2017-07-02T05:11:07Z BrownPoop: and i own all white niggars
2017-07-02T05:11:13Z metax: lmao
2017-07-02T05:11:33Z BrownPoop: i'm going to use terms like n1gger or niggar or other mis-spellings because Sigyn is getting annoying
2017-07-02T05:12:02Z BrownPoop: those kills also kline at the same time so i have to evade ban too
2017-07-02T05:12:04Z metax: of course, too much blacklist
2017-07-02T05:12:27Z BrownPoop: kill because it cascades to all servers faster than kline, sure, but Sigyn still klines
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2017-07-02T05:16:37Z metax: systemd is made to enslave more black people
2017-07-02T05:16:45Z BrownPoop: lol
2017-07-02T05:16:52Z BrownPoop: plz elaborate
2017-07-02T05:17:59Z metax: i mean white-black and black-white people, similar to free work as they do
2017-07-02T05:18:23Z metax: anyway it's all about nationalism yeah
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2017-07-02T05:27:00Z killer: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Odin- Tordek minion LyndsySimon pankracy loke` ecraven koisoke jsnell xristos Blkt_ dTal_ isoraqathedh drdo SlashLife splittist velvetcore_ vibs29 Lord_Nightmare TMA redcedar misv tuturto zv mrcom pok angular_mike_ loke ArthurAGleckler[ davsebamse AeroNotix joga chu luis shaftoe vert2 billstclair AntiSpamMeta nikivi jdz Patzy lxpz __paul0 aaronjensen mulk brucem adlaistevenson m
2017-07-02T05:27:00Z killer: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Hoolootwo ult Reinisch adlaistevenson funnel rann giraffe gingerale loke` DeadTrickster SlashLife zv drmeister Firedancer_ P01yM0rp4 tapioco nowhere_man watersoul ccl-logbot Odin- vert2 asedeno pacon_ fouric1 add^_ mathrick ksool_ jdz alex_e samebchase gz_ tobel djinni` poorbean akkad Sovereign_Bleak kjak_ newcup AeroNotix joast rjeli justinmcp_ raydeejay Patzy mrcom gabot MrWoo
2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Tintle angavrilov jackdaniel cyberlard drcode RichardPaulBck[m Fade ggherdov tilpner argoneus Oladon shenghi m0j0 alex_e krok vsync koisoke butterthebuddha xrash mood azrazalea Reinisch tokenrove happy_gnu sword libreman jurov narendraj9 CrazyEddy norfumpit catern orivej kilimanjaro chinchilla moei defaultxr ozzloy vert2 mfiano daemoz eMBee misv groovy2shoes ``Erik ikopico felideo
2017-07-02T05:27:00Z ElizaBathory: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: yeticry nicdev sebboh Firedancer_ bailon a7f4 daemoz p_l gremly gko filwisher easye fluter happy_gnu Aritheanie rk[ghost] jself metax chinchilla ksool_ drdo tonton aeth knobo abbe froggey m0j0 malm shka mklk_ BrownPoop ozzloy eMBee ``Erik emacsoma` phadthai eagleflo argoneus drcode omilu Merv arescorpio minion whartung joast sukaeto clog tuturto isoraqathedh ArthurAGleckler[

2017-07-02T05:27:00Z diablo666: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: gingerale troydm adolf_stalin Odin- mklk_ drdo Fare daemoz eMBee SlashLife jedb hvxgr Suzuran Ichimusai zymurgy moei tkd pillton baroncharlus hjudt XachX zv kjak_ krok catern brendos watersoul omilu dxtr xrash P01yM0rp4 jackc nikivi gremly heurist tmc Merv_ xristos arrsim ozzloy ggherdov arrdem loke cod larme bend3r_ banjiewen kushal kjeldahl z0d

2017-07-02T05:27:00Z diablo666: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: zv DGASAU zaquest swflint krasnal d4gg4d_ jasom xristos ecraven lancetw ericmath1son easye Fare hjudt felideon rann ksool_ lxpz libreman billstclair kjak_ flip214 zbigniew_ davidkrauser lonjil zkat gremly tokenrove cross snits_ jurov ikopico krok xrash akkad ``Erik asedeno butterthebuddha kushal singer22 minion neuri8 Tordek Bock theBlackDragon askatasuna gko dlowe Ichimusai pankrac
2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: zv shenghi jerme_ P01yM0rp4 joeygibson z0d askatasuna poorbean xristos mson eli emacsoma` kjak_ happy_gnu sveit vert2 dxtr hjudt pok DGASAU dddddd micro_ otwieracz singer22 oleo jackdaniel eschatologist spacepluk Cthulhux |3b| copec tfb tilpner schoppenhauer azrazalea mrcom giraffe beaky __paul0 mood voidlily Mandus ``Erik gko BrownPoop ludston da mfiano varuaa omilu

2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: kjak_ jerme_ happy_gnu fouric1 loke sigjuice heurist myrkraverk Tristam eschulte_ dxtr zkat zm gendl watersoul otwieracz Khisanth mrcom pok Sovereign_Bleak tessier_ mson arbv diegs_ hjudt ult sveit j0ni rvirding gargaml ineiros_ jedb thorondor[m] pankracy Bock rjeli joast knobo ericmath1son Nikotiini diablo666 eschatologist Colleen pareidolia filwisher ecraven akkad cl Aritheanie 
2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
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2017-07-02T05:27:01Z ElizaBathory: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: X-Scale SiCC pareidolia malcom2073 mrcom lieven daemoz jackc mfiano ec\ ineiros_ stu cross damke_ singer22 jean377_ Lowl3v3l djinni` thinkpad clamchowder asedeno j0ni mjl P01yM0rp4 DGASAU kini ArthurAGleckler[ rann trig-ger minion dlowe d4ryus1 knobo nightfly gendl raydeejay theBlackDragon ft sbryant ck_ banjiewen shka himmAllRight emacsomancer Subfusc itruslove thijso nhandler ikopico malm

2017-07-02T05:27:01Z ElizaBathory quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2017-07-02T05:27:01Z diablo666 quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2017-07-02T05:27:12Z diegs_: what the fuck
2017-07-02T05:27:33Z Lord_Nightmare: they got G-lined
2017-07-02T05:27:37Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-07-02T05:27:45Z Suzuran: People still spam IRC? How 1990s.
2017-07-02T05:28:09Z Lord_Nightmare: yep
2017-07-02T05:28:26Z metax: spamming on IRC is still a serious business
2017-07-02T05:28:28Z BrownPoop: omg cool
2017-07-02T05:28:32Z BrownPoop: we got a botnet
2017-07-02T05:28:48Z metax: yep, that was HUUUGE
2017-07-02T05:31:00Z mson: Then... there's no party?
2017-07-02T05:31:25Z BrownPoop: lol
2017-07-02T05:31:36Z BrownPoop: mson: wild porn party at electrosluts.com
2017-07-02T05:31:43Z BrownPoop: lesbian fetish porn
2017-07-02T05:32:40Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: Lesbian BDSM electro-zapping fetish porn can be found at electrosluts.com  |  POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers!
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2017-07-02T05:37:23Z mson: A lot is happening.
2017-07-02T05:37:29Z adlaistevenson: Let's party like it is 1995 and JAVA IS COMING
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2017-07-02T06:13:09Z mson changed the topic of #lisp to: I don't remember what the topic was before, but some troll changed it to racial epithets, and I figure this is better.
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2017-07-02T06:18:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: /topic #lisp: "Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language
2017-07-02T06:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof:     <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new>
2017-07-02T06:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof:     logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL
2017-07-02T06:18:10Z fiddlerwoaroof:     1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1"
2017-07-02T06:18:32Z fiddlerwoaroof changed the topic of #lisp to: "Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1"
2017-07-02T06:18:43Z fiddlerwoaroof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1
2017-07-02T06:20:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, SBCL is actually 1.3.19, I believe
2017-07-02T06:21:20Z fiddlerwoaroof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.19, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1
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2017-07-02T06:44:52Z daemoz: Well then
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2017-07-02T07:21:38Z BW^-: can you remind me again why the traditional wisdom is that refcounted memory management systems not can handle cyclical references without need for special manual quirks (weak refs at the cycle points)?
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2017-07-02T07:27:58Z beach: In a cycle, every reference count is strictly greater than 0.
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2017-07-02T07:29:04Z beach: ... so if you have an outside pointer to a cycle, the object pointed to has a reference count of at least 2.  Dropping the pointer decreases it to something that is at least 1, so it can't be reclaimed.
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2017-07-02T07:51:50Z BW^-: disconnected, so re refcounts, back.
2017-07-02T07:55:29Z beach: In a cycle, every reference count is strictly greater than 0.
2017-07-02T07:55:31Z beach: ... so if you have an outside pointer to a cycle, the object pointed to has a reference count of at least 2.  Dropping the pointer decreases it to something that is at least 1, so it can't be reclaimed.
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2017-07-02T07:58:06Z BW^-: beach: can you make your point why?
2017-07-02T07:58:07Z BW^-: say
2017-07-02T07:58:25Z BW^-: right, so if root A refs B, which refs C, which refs B, and you collect B. in this case, A would cause B to get +1, B would case C to get +1, and C would *not* cause B to go +1 again because its refcounting stack would remember that it already +1:ed B already. when you collect A, you'd do -1 on B automatically no, hence giving it 0, so it's time to collect??
2017-07-02T07:59:02Z phoe: BW^-:          A -> B <->C       <- is this correct?
2017-07-02T07:59:09Z phoe: A -> B <-> C
2017-07-02T07:59:14Z BW^-: phoe: correct.
2017-07-02T07:59:22Z beach: BW^-: Hold on, you don't "collect B" or anything.
2017-07-02T07:59:26Z phoe: so A has a refcount of 0, B has a refcount of 2, C has a refcount of 1
2017-07-02T07:59:36Z phoe: in refcounting systems you don't have roots though
2017-07-02T07:59:36Z BW^-: phoe: i guess A being a root, has refcount 1.
2017-07-02T07:59:43Z BW^-: phoe: then, refcounts don't cascade, do they?
2017-07-02T07:59:44Z beach: *sigh*
2017-07-02T07:59:45Z phoe: (AFAIK)
2017-07-02T07:59:48Z BW^-: phoe: so it'll be A has 1, B has 1, and C has 1?
2017-07-02T07:59:50Z beach: You guys work it out.
2017-07-02T07:59:54Z phoe: A has 0 refs, so it's collected
2017-07-02T08:00:08Z beach: Do you want help or not?
2017-07-02T08:00:21Z BW^-: phoe: right, at some point you decrease A so it's collected, but in that same moment you also propagate that -1 to B right, so B will get 0 and is collected too?
2017-07-02T08:00:26Z BW^-: beach: I want help! =)
2017-07-02T08:00:26Z phoe: hey
2017-07-02T08:00:28Z phoe: B has 2 references
2017-07-02T08:00:30Z phoe: from A and from C
2017-07-02T08:00:36Z phoe: so now B has 1 reference and C has 1 reference
2017-07-02T08:00:49Z BW^-: phoe: no no, because when C got +1:ed, then it saw on its stack that B was +1:ed by the same run already, and does *not* +1 B again, meaning B only get 1.
2017-07-02T08:00:51Z beach: Are you ready for me to explain?
2017-07-02T08:00:56Z BW^-: beach: yes!
2017-07-02T08:01:07Z beach is pausing to make sure...
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2017-07-02T08:01:37Z beach: BW^-: The way things work is that you have a pointer somewhere...
2017-07-02T08:01:43Z beach: it is pointing to some object.
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2017-07-02T08:02:02Z beach: That object has a reference counter of at least one, namely form the pointer that we are now considering.
2017-07-02T08:02:12Z beach: Suppose we have a pointer to some object A.
2017-07-02T08:02:18Z beach: A contains a pointer to B.
2017-07-02T08:02:24Z beach: B contains a pointer to A.
2017-07-02T08:02:27Z beach: OK so far?
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2017-07-02T08:02:30Z BW^-: beach: sure!
2017-07-02T08:02:33Z beach: So we have a cycle.
2017-07-02T08:02:36Z BW^-: yup
2017-07-02T08:02:52Z beach: The reference counter of A is 2 (it is pointed to by our pointer and by B).
2017-07-02T08:03:03Z BW^-: beach: why?
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2017-07-02T08:03:17Z beach: Suppose we have a pointer to some object A.
2017-07-02T08:03:25Z BW^-: i agree that a 2 would likely make it impossible to collect it, but i think mitigating that it would become 2 in the first place should be trivial
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2017-07-02T08:04:12Z beach: If it is a reference counter, it counts references, and since there are two references, the reference count is 2.
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2017-07-02T08:06:15Z beach: OK, let's try with one more indirection...
2017-07-02T08:06:19Z BW^-: beach: but in that case it could as well go on infinitely, recurse into counting B again and A again and B again etc.?
2017-07-02T08:06:34Z beach: It only counts immediate references.
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2017-07-02T08:06:58Z beach: You have 3 objects, A, B, and C.
2017-07-02T08:07:02Z BW^-: beach: so I guess any refcounting "ref-increase" algorithm must have a stack that traces all objects it already added to as to not add to them again, and in this case A was already added to and hence should be ignored on the second initiative for a +1
2017-07-02T08:07:02Z BW^-: yeah
2017-07-02T08:07:21Z beach: A refers to B, B refers to C, and C refers to B.
2017-07-02T08:07:51Z beach: No, it only works with the immediate object being pointed to.
2017-07-02T08:07:57Z beach: Let me continue my example.
2017-07-02T08:08:02Z BW^-: ok
2017-07-02T08:08:16Z beach: You have a pointer in some register or local variable to A.  And that is the only pointer to A.
2017-07-02T08:08:50Z beach: The reference counter are A=1 (from the local variable) B=2 (from A and C), and C=1 (from B).
2017-07-02T08:09:02Z beach: If you don't agree with this, you must first read up on how reference counting works.
2017-07-02T08:09:38Z beach: Let's say the local variable is X.
2017-07-02T08:10:24Z BW^-: sec.
2017-07-02T08:11:29Z BW^-: beach: what i'd presume happens here is that, any refcounting algo that would give B 2, would recurse into +1:ing to C again, which would lead to +1:ing to B again, causing B and C go to infinity and then crash due to infinite loop, stack overflow etc.
2017-07-02T08:11:51Z beach: I am telling you, it only counts IMMEDIATE references.
2017-07-02T08:12:10Z beach: So your are presuming the wrong thing.
2017-07-02T08:13:48Z BW^-: aha
2017-07-02T08:13:51Z BW^-: aha
2017-07-02T08:14:38Z beach: We now do (setf X (bla X)), where bla is the function that takes (a pointer to) A and returns a pointer to B.
2017-07-02T08:14:40Z BW^-: beach: yes i see how counting immediate references makes sense.  and then, indeed B would have two immediate references - one from A and one from C.
2017-07-02T08:16:10Z beach: The way it works now, is that the compiler has generated code to do this: (let ((temp (bla X))) (increase-refcount temp) (decrease-refcount-and-maybe reclaim X) (setf X temp))
2017-07-02T08:16:30Z beach: So temp now contains and additional reference counter to B.
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2017-07-02T08:16:41Z beach: B now has a reference counter of 3.
2017-07-02T08:17:03Z beach: Now, we decrease the reference counter of what X points to, which is A.
2017-07-02T08:17:11Z beach: It drops to 0, so a is reclaimed.
2017-07-02T08:17:37Z beach: When A is reclaimed, everything it points to recursively gets their reference counters decremented.
2017-07-02T08:17:47Z beach: A points to B, so B goes from 3 to 2.
2017-07-02T08:18:05Z beach: Now, we have X pointing to B, B pointing to C, and C pointing to B.
2017-07-02T08:18:16Z beach: B has a reference counter of 2 and C of 1.
2017-07-02T08:18:23Z beach: [same situation as before]
2017-07-02T08:18:47Z beach: Now we do (setf X 234) and 234 is an immediate value.
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2017-07-02T08:19:33Z beach: So we first decrement the reference counter of what X points to (which is B) before assigning to X.
2017-07-02T08:19:50Z beach: So B drops to 1 (it is still pointed to by C) so it is not reclaimed.
2017-07-02T08:20:11Z beach: Then X becomes 234, and we now have an inaccessible cycle of B and C.
2017-07-02T08:20:31Z beach: This is how it works, and this is the reason why reference counting can not handle cycles.
2017-07-02T08:20:35Z beach: Clear?
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2017-07-02T08:33:38Z Lord_Nightmare: fe[nl]ix: can you set mode +t please?
2017-07-02T08:33:45Z Lord_Nightmare: on the channel
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2017-07-02T08:35:05Z beach: BW^-: Did you faint?
2017-07-02T08:36:05Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: is there a reason for that?
2017-07-02T08:36:14Z phoe: jackdaniel: there was
2017-07-02T08:36:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2017-07-02T08:36:44Z jackdaniel has set mode +t
2017-07-02T08:36:49Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://pastebin.com/FFGsMV4w
2017-07-02T08:36:51Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
2017-07-02T08:37:00Z jackdaniel: thanks
2017-07-02T08:37:24Z jackdaniel: should be fixed now
2017-07-02T08:45:23Z BW^-: beach: sec
2017-07-02T08:46:25Z BW^-: beach: ok i guess i understand, refcounting is simply quirky.
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2017-07-02T08:47:13Z BW^-: beach,*: what are the ways you know of that you can do the object marking part of GC, on a very large persistent object database,
2017-07-02T08:50:24Z beach: Is this still reference counting, or GC in general?
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2017-07-02T08:52:38Z beach: There is only one way of marking all accessible objects, and that is to start with the roots (registers of the machine) and recursively mark until you no longer hit any unmarked object.
2017-07-02T08:52:39Z beach: You can make it faster in most cases by dividing the data set into "generations" and collect younger generations more often.  You then stop marking when you have a reference to an object in an older generation.
2017-07-02T08:52:48Z BW^-: in such a way that the RAM footprint (for the marking) is small (for instance by caching the marking state/bitmap) and hence we don't need to spill-over data to the persistent media causing lots of writes, which would wear out an SSD fast
2017-07-02T08:52:54Z BW^-: beach: GC in general
2017-07-02T08:53:30Z beach: Sure, you can keep the mark bits elsewhere, but you still have to visit every object.
2017-07-02T08:54:30Z beach: But yeah, if you keep the mark bits in RAM, you don't need to write it to SSD.
2017-07-02T08:55:44Z beach: You would then compute the offset into the bit-vector of mark bits by shifting the address of the object being marked.
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2017-07-02T11:34:35Z BW^-: beach: thanks for your feedback.
2017-07-02T11:34:43Z BW^-: beach: will you be around for another couple of hours?
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2017-07-02T11:37:16Z phoe: BW^-: just ask questions; some of us read the channel backlog whenever they're able to
2017-07-02T11:37:29Z phoe: and beach is one of these people :)
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2017-07-02T11:42:16Z beach: BW^-: I am entertaining lunch guests today.  Maybe I'll be back in a few hours.
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2017-07-02T11:54:29Z malice: Hi! During quickloading retrospectiff I get 'No translation for #P"SYS:DEFLATE.FAS"'; do you have any idea what could be the problem?
2017-07-02T11:54:43Z malice: I can quickload it on my laptop just fine, it's my desktop that's complaining
2017-07-02T11:54:55Z malice: And I ran (ql:update-all-dists) before.
2017-07-02T11:59:25Z malice: (actually, the problem I have is related to system "deflate")
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2017-07-02T12:14:54Z beach: BW^-: I am here briefly in case you have a quick question.
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2017-07-02T12:25:37Z _death: oof, annoying that some plexippus xpath test w/ a huge macroexpansion consistently exhausts sbcl's heap
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2017-07-02T12:37:51Z phoe: Is CHANL a good choice for designing a message-centric server?
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2017-07-02T15:58:31Z wasamasa: ohi, can shinmera be found here?
2017-07-02T16:03:39Z wasamasa: nevermind, found them on another channel
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2017-07-02T16:48:00Z ebrasca: Is good idea to manage GNU/Linux with cl for server?
2017-07-02T16:49:39Z phoe: ebrasca: yes, that's what I use and that's what I've heard that other people use, too.
2017-07-02T16:50:09Z phoe: Install some sort of Linux and, on top of that, put a Lisp runtime. I use debian and SBCL.
2017-07-02T16:50:25Z ebrasca: phoe: can I make scripts with lisp?
2017-07-02T16:51:16Z ebrasca: phoe: I read it is slow for scripts.
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2017-07-02T16:54:56Z phoe: ebrasca: not really.
2017-07-02T16:55:24Z phoe: CLISP is recommended for scripts because it does not have any compilation overhead, and integrates somewhat well with Unixlike systems.
2017-07-02T16:56:03Z Tintle is now known as JaNNiel
2017-07-02T16:56:19Z ebrasca: phoe: I am makeing 1 server for storage and other thinks.
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2017-07-02T16:58:46Z phoe: ebrasca: For storage? What do you mean? How do you want to store things and how do you want to retrieve them?
2017-07-02T17:00:07Z ebrasca: phoe: I like to sell space in my server.
2017-07-02T17:00:40Z ebrasca: phoe: I like to have ssh , vsftp and web.
2017-07-02T17:01:56Z phoe: ebrasca: got it. What will you need Lisp for on that server?
2017-07-02T17:03:53Z ebrasca: phoe: Probably web , some scripting and I don't know what else lisp can do in servers.
2017-07-02T17:05:35Z phoe: ebrasca: it can do whatever other languages can do. :)
2017-07-02T17:06:44Z ebrasca: phoe: is lisp better than bash or zsh?
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2017-07-02T17:08:16Z phoe: ebrasca: they're very different, not really better or worse.
2017-07-02T17:08:45Z phoe: bash is a Unix shell; Lisp does not really obey Unix philosophy.
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2017-07-02T17:22:22Z noobly_: How does the racket REPL differ from DrRacket?
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2017-07-02T17:23:20Z Bike: i believe there is a #racket in which your questions will be better dealt with
2017-07-02T17:24:13Z edgar-rft: noobly_: We're using Common Lisp here, folks on #scheme or #racket might know better.
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2017-07-02T17:42:39Z BW^-: hm
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2017-07-02T17:44:09Z edgar-rft: BW^-: hm = Hindustan Motors? <http://www.hindmotor.com/>
2017-07-02T17:46:42Z phoe: edgar-rft: hennes&mauritz, www.hm.com
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2017-07-02T17:49:45Z edgar-rft: phoe: I like the funny car better :-)
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2017-07-02T19:50:38Z phoe: ...it's really amazing
2017-07-02T19:50:46Z phoe: I can understand the code I wrote half a year ago
2017-07-02T19:53:16Z _death: I think it more depends on the day of the week than on the week of the year :)
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2017-07-02T19:53:37Z phoe: actually
2017-07-02T19:53:50Z phoe: this code got refactored and rewritten at least four times, by me and me only
2017-07-02T19:54:06Z phoe: because four times I couldn't comprehend WTF that code did or who the fuck wrote it that way
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2017-07-02T19:56:27Z jackdaniel: s/wtf/what/ s/who.*wrote/who wrote/
2017-07-02T19:58:09Z _death awaits refucktoring of jackdaniel's version
2017-07-02T20:04:43Z _death: anyway, for me it's really inconsistent.. one day I can write code where each function, class, whatever has a docstring, and another day I can write code without any docstrings at all.. the exploration/exploitation ratio is also a factor
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2017-07-02T20:06:11Z jackdaniel: writing intelligible code is an art :)
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2017-07-02T20:37:00Z edgar-rft wrote (print "hello world") approx. 20 years ago and still can understand it. It's a real miracle.
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2017-07-02T20:44:49Z ebrasca: edgar-rft: wow
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2017-07-02T20:46:44Z jackdaniel: do you have regression tests for that?
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2017-07-02T20:55:37Z phoe: do you have continuous integration set up for that? we don't want this to fail if someone breaks it in one of the commits later
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2017-07-02T21:03:31Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: regression tests for understanding code? :-)
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2017-07-02T21:05:08Z edgar-rft: phoe: I've refactored it a bazillion times and it still works
2017-07-02T21:08:29Z jackdaniel: edgar-rft: for your "hello world" program, I suspected you have refactored it various times, and that there were many bugs in the meantime, so I assumed you have written for it regression tests ;_)
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2017-07-02T22:06:35Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: Yes, I wrote the (print "hello world") program as an regression test for understanding code. As soon as I don't understand it anymore I'm doomed.
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2017-07-03T02:44:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-03T03:46:41Z PuercoPop: Besides binary-types, is there more 'prior-art' of schemes to map a binary layout to and from variables?
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2017-07-03T03:53:32Z loke`: PuercoPop: I was asking about exactly that some time ago. Didn't get a good reply.
2017-07-03T03:53:49Z loke`: Please let me know if you hear of something.
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2017-07-03T04:05:09Z beach doesn't know what "to and from variables" is supposed to mean.
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2017-07-03T04:15:25Z PuercoPop: beach: define a layout, read a binary stream and have it map to a variables/class. Something like (destructuring-bind (field-a field-b) (read-octect stream))
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2017-07-03T04:31:39Z beach: Maybe it's too early in the morning for me to understand.  What does variable[s]/class mean?  Where does a variable get involved?
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2017-07-03T04:39:50Z PuercoPop: variables as in field-a field-b in the d-bind example above. Class is meant as an instance of a class which has one slot per field. A 'layout' would be something like this https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xcb/proto/tree/src/xproto.xml#n190
2017-07-03T04:40:09Z beach: Yes, I think I am slowly getting it...
2017-07-03T04:41:02Z beach: You want to split data in an octet stream (presumably containing a sequence of "objects") according to some description ("class") of field width, etc, and turn each field into some integer or bit-vector containing the bits in the field.
2017-07-03T04:41:06Z beach: Is that right?
2017-07-03T04:41:50Z PuercoPop: yes, and vice-versa
2017-07-03T04:41:56Z beach: Sure, yes.
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2017-07-03T04:42:28Z beach: I don't have a solution for you.  I just wanted to understand what you need.
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2017-07-03T05:35:27Z PuercoPop: Well binary-types is a no-go as the size of the request may depend on value of a field transmitted in the same request. clx uses define-accessor but I don't think their approach is particularly readable
2017-07-03T05:45:38Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I think that I've used binary-types for requests of varying sizes when I was playing with the wayland protocol
2017-07-03T05:45:42Z jackdaniel: don't remember for sure though
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2017-07-03T05:54:23Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: binary-string seems to be binary-types type, which doesn't have predetermined size for instance. You need to specialize read-binary on your own binary-type I think.
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2017-07-03T06:19:57Z dim: PuercoPop: you can have a read at Postmodern, the PostgreSQL driver, it basically needs to map a binary stream into SQL result sets with a defined protocol layout
2017-07-03T06:20:09Z dim: also qmynd but as the maintainer of it I'm not sure it's a good example
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2017-07-03T06:39:20Z DeadTrickster: so cl-plus-ssl just merged hostname verification. probably it's time to update drakma/your code
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2017-07-03T07:26:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I generally use CHANL for queues-like abstractions, although recently I've been playing with the queues in lparallel
2017-07-03T07:27:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Part of me, though, think that it might be best just to use bindings to a well-tested library like ZeroMQ or the like, despite having a C dependency
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2017-07-03T07:46:05Z dim: I'm using lparallel.queues in pgloader too
2017-07-03T07:46:37Z dim: I like using lparallel submit-task and then queues to communicate and distribute the work load, it reminds me of my Erlang days
2017-07-03T07:47:17Z dim: I must admit I've only read docs of other solutions tho, didn't try any
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2017-07-03T07:52:35Z jackdaniel: I find lparallel very convenient. Of course it doesn't prevent you from shooting your own foot, but doesn't tie your hands either.
2017-07-03T07:52:45Z jackdaniel: If you know what you're doing it is a great library
2017-07-03T07:57:05Z BW^-: i have a question for you:  what algorithms are you aware of for detecting all the cyclical references in a persistent heap?
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2017-07-03T07:57:41Z BW^-: so, algorithms for detecting cycles in a directed graph, with as small memory footprint as possible.
2017-07-03T08:06:52Z impaktor: I'm thinking about reading "Land of Lisp". Are all the games textbased, or does it use some graphics library? Is the book considered recommended? (I've read PCL, SICP and own PIAP). Basically, I'm looking for something to "casually" read, like PCL. PIAP is a bit too much for what I want right now.
2017-07-03T08:07:47Z dmh: text
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2017-07-03T08:08:59Z dmh: its a good book, and more modern than PCL (it points you to non-existant lisp in a box etc)
2017-07-03T08:09:50Z dmh: if you are not deadset on common lisp there is good racket stuff out there too and it's got an easily setup ready-to-go-environment too
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2017-07-03T08:14:42Z impaktor: dmh: I'm not interested in ever doing anything outside emacs. :)
2017-07-03T08:14:59Z impaktor: But I don't mind scheme. In fact, I like scheme a lot.
2017-07-03T08:15:39Z dmh: i dont doubt there is a racket mode but understand. its a very mature scheme extension with amazing library coverage
2017-07-03T08:15:58Z impaktor: What do you mean "non existant lisp in a box"? I assume this is some interactive stuff in the e-version? Wait, there is a physical version of the book, right? I read my books on paper.
2017-07-03T08:16:02Z dmh: but more on topic, if you follow land of lisp and feel comfortable with that, quicklisp and friends in end you're in a good spot
2017-07-03T08:16:12Z dmh: oh no, sorry
2017-07-03T08:16:41Z dmh: I mean in PCL, if i recall correctly, the setup section wants you to download 'lisp-in-a-box' or such, which mostly seemed aimed at windows users. it was emacs w/ everything setup already
2017-07-03T08:16:54Z dmh: so if you're an emacs user you're already leagues ahead
2017-07-03T08:17:00Z dmh: the physical book is still available
2017-07-03T08:17:23Z dmh: or at least was :) ive seen copies in meatspace
2017-07-03T08:17:54Z dmh: oh, but what i meant by nonexistant was a lot of dead links, outdated setup info etc
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2017-07-03T08:18:35Z dmh: but its quite easy to get going these days, if you just setup emacs (you're good there), have a good lisp in your path (sbcl,ccl,allegro whatever) and install quicklisp you can pretty much start
2017-07-03T08:18:56Z impaktor: ah, OK.
2017-07-03T08:19:12Z impaktor: (regarding dead links)
2017-07-03T08:19:21Z dmh: i read it as someone new to emacs (years ago) and just kept spamming eval buffer and got through it. nothing crazy needed
2017-07-03T08:19:30Z dmh: cheesy text mode adventures ahoy
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2017-07-03T08:24:43Z easye disagrees.  "The Grand Theft Wumpus shows how to create graphs in Lisp, and is well written".
2017-07-03T08:25:29Z easye has never seen the paper version.  I can't get it locally.
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2017-07-03T08:26:49Z dmh: oh wait
2017-07-03T08:26:53Z dmh: i forgot about that
2017-07-03T08:26:59Z dmh: fair points :D
2017-07-03T08:27:07Z easye: Ah, sorry dmh, I misread you.  You weren't necesarily criticising the text.
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2017-07-03T08:27:22Z dmh: also, when i said copies, it wasnt in store. used copies kicking around etc. I think it's been out of print a while
2017-07-03T08:27:44Z easye: We should defintely have a book table at the next ELS.
2017-07-03T08:28:41Z dmh: man, I did forget about the most violent programming example ever put in a book
2017-07-03T08:28:44Z dmh: i need to read it again
2017-07-03T08:29:23Z impaktor: ELS?
2017-07-03T08:29:41Z impaktor: Some event/conference in US?
2017-07-03T08:29:44Z easye: European Lisp Symposium.  The next one is near a beach in Spain.
2017-07-03T08:29:59Z impaktor: No habla espaniol.
2017-07-03T08:30:10Z easye: habla se cons?
2017-07-03T08:30:15Z dmh: and it is not text mode indeed. libdot / graphviz
2017-07-03T08:30:32Z dmh: wait near a beach? i need to trick my employer into paying for me to go
2017-07-03T08:30:35Z impaktor: Ah, I've used graphviz a bit already.
2017-07-03T08:30:44Z dmh: if 'dot' is in your path i think it will work then
2017-07-03T08:30:50Z impaktor: it is.
2017-07-03T08:31:00Z dmh: you're off to the races
2017-07-03T08:31:39Z impaktor: A day at the races is nice.
2017-07-03T08:31:45Z impaktor: So is a night at the opera.
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2017-07-03T08:32:18Z impaktor: Hmm, $17 + shipping to Europe for used copy.
2017-07-03T08:32:44Z dmh: yikes. thats crazy, print the online version or something
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2017-07-03T08:38:29Z impaktor: I generally prefer book format.
2017-07-03T08:38:46Z impaktor: I'll print chapter 8, which is free, and see if I like it. It's how I did with PCL.
2017-07-03T08:39:06Z impaktor: before buying the physical copy.
2017-07-03T08:40:04Z _death: there's also http://lisperati.com/casting.html
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2017-07-03T08:44:13Z dmh: oh sorry, i was thinking PCL, not land of lisp
2017-07-03T08:44:23Z dmh: land of lisp was still in print i thought
2017-07-03T08:44:42Z dmh: i recently read this, its a lil rough around the edges but a decent whirlwind tour
2017-07-03T08:45:09Z dmh: https://leanpub.com/lovinglisp
2017-07-03T08:45:34Z dmh: no physical copies tho
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2017-07-03T09:03:47Z p_l: isn't loving lisp on its 4th edition?
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2017-07-03T09:06:25Z BW^-: a paper says "One of the most promising automatic storage reclamation techniques, generation-based storage reclamation, suffers poor performance if many objects live for a fairly long time and then die. ".  what's their point?
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2017-07-03T09:08:22Z beach: The point of the writers of that paper?
2017-07-03T09:08:36Z p_l: BW^-: it's about breaking the assumptions of Generational GC - that a) objects live mostly short lives b) if an object lives long enough, it's probably not going to be removed.
2017-07-03T09:08:41Z p_l: So I guess a critique
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2017-07-03T09:09:25Z p_l: An interesting release valve on that is when you have Regions exposed from the GC (like in Symbolics Lisp), aka the thing that Rust crowd harps a lot on ;)
2017-07-03T09:09:56Z p_l: then you can identify such objects and explicitly allocate them in a separate area to be freed at will without impacting permanent generation
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2017-07-03T09:11:59Z beach: BW^-: You really should read the book.  It has great summaries and comparisons of all the major techniques.
2017-07-03T09:12:12Z p_l: the GC book?
2017-07-03T09:12:32Z beach: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025255
2017-07-03T09:12:35Z beach: THE book.
2017-07-03T09:12:53Z p_l: Yes, that is THE book
2017-07-03T09:12:57Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-07-03T09:13:25Z p_l: I honestly would love to have a subscription for it so I wouldn't have to worry about ammo when throwing it at junior programmers
2017-07-03T09:13:48Z beach: "subscription"?
2017-07-03T09:13:54Z p_l: (velocity dependant on thick-headness of the dev in question)
2017-07-03T09:14:06Z beach: Receive a copy every month?
2017-07-03T09:14:09Z p_l: beach: as in "we will deliver few copies every quarter" ;D
2017-07-03T09:14:11Z p_l: yep
2017-07-03T09:14:21Z beach: Good plan, actually.
2017-07-03T09:14:22Z p_l: beach: to make it easy to give it away (with force if needed)
2017-07-03T09:14:49Z beach: And to have one even when the previous person you lent it to didn't give it back.
2017-07-03T09:14:56Z p_l: beach: :)
2017-07-03T09:15:00Z loke`: I thought 50 Shades of Grey was _THE_ book? :-)
2017-07-03T09:15:05Z beach: ... which happens frequently to me, and I can never remember who it is.
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2017-07-03T09:15:22Z p_l: beach: considered applying "Ex Libris" markings to your books?
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2017-07-03T09:16:40Z beach: p_l: You assume that the person I lent it doesn't give it back because he or she doesn't know who the owner is.  Not the case.  They are perfectly willing to keep it anyway.
2017-07-03T09:16:50Z p_l: :)
2017-07-03T09:16:54Z p_l: it's a good book
2017-07-03T09:17:09Z beach: I don't know how many thousands of Euros in books I have lost that way.
2017-07-03T09:17:21Z p_l: One of the things I miss the most from being at University is access to the university library
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2017-07-03T09:21:56Z BW^-: p_l: yeah but how do generational collectors embody that?? i don't see it..
2017-07-03T09:22:16Z BW^-: p_l: a central point with a generational collector is that if a cycle appears, it'll be among the youngest objects right as that's the only place they can appear??
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2017-07-03T09:22:19Z beach: BW^-: I strongly recommend the book.
2017-07-03T09:22:23Z beach: It explains all that.
2017-07-03T09:22:26Z BW^-: (and any mutations to an old object would redefine an object as new)
2017-07-03T09:22:29Z BW^-: aha
2017-07-03T09:22:39Z p_l: BW^-: the book is very in depth on that, yes
2017-07-03T09:23:07Z p_l: but generally the issue is that permanent generation is usually much slower/problematic to collect than nursery and intermediate ones
2017-07-03T09:23:27Z beach: BW^-: It doesn't matter where cycles appear.
2017-07-03T09:24:12Z p_l: so if you have a long lived set of objects that will then become unused at later point, you'll have chances of either a partial memory leak (depending on characteristics of the system) or an inconvenient pause
2017-07-03T09:24:16Z BW^-: beach,p_l: is "Garbage Collection Algorithms For Automatic Dynamic Memory Management" fine to?
2017-07-03T09:24:26Z beach: BW^-: If the "generational hypothesis" (i.e. that most objects die young) is satisfied, then, since a copying collector only scans live data, very few objects will be scanned.
2017-07-03T09:24:46Z BW^-: beach: ok
2017-07-03T09:25:40Z beach: BW^-: That's the first edition.  Much was updated in the second edition.
2017-07-03T09:25:46Z BW^-: aha.
2017-07-03T09:26:01Z beach: I have both (obviously).
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2017-07-03T09:31:07Z BW^-: ok
2017-07-03T09:33:50Z BW^-: beach: aha here is the index to the new edition , https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e910/c53add23cfaa3e7cf990505c0f5fdbbba137.pdf
2017-07-03T09:35:04Z beach: Looks right.
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2017-07-03T09:40:43Z dmh: p_l: i think you are mistaken? loving lisp only recently got 'finished' by the author
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2017-07-03T09:42:47Z jackdaniel: "< loke`> I thought 50 Shades of Grey was _THE_ book? :-)" – something about streams I presume? ;-)
2017-07-03T09:43:33Z loke`: jackdaniel: Something that :-)
2017-07-03T09:43:42Z loke`: Something _like_ that.
2017-07-03T09:46:18Z dmh: NSWF! unbuffered streams
2017-07-03T09:46:27Z dmh: typo :(
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2017-07-03T09:48:28Z beach: Please don't misspell David Gray's name. :)
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2017-07-03T10:23:50Z BW^-: beach,p_l: what do you think about the design paste I PM:ed you?
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2017-07-03T10:30:49Z p_l: BW^-: sounds like a rather more complex attempt on refcounting, but I might be biased and/or not reading deeply enough
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2017-07-03T10:31:13Z p_l: the separate "cyclical object database" especially
2017-07-03T10:31:34Z p_l: seems to also heavily increase overhead of MM
2017-07-03T10:32:19Z malice: Hi! When trying to quickload :mcclim, I get an error(during loading one of its dependancies, :deflate) : "no translation for #P"SYS:DEFLATE.FAS"".
2017-07-03T10:32:38Z malice: I have the same version of ASDF and SBCL as my laptop, and on my laptop I don't have this problem.
2017-07-03T10:32:39Z malice: What could be the cause?
2017-07-03T10:32:53Z malice: Or, how can I fix it?
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2017-07-03T10:34:11Z malice: The stack trace shows that the one to signal the condition is #'translate-logical-pathname called by ASDF - normalize-namestring. The rest of stack consists of some lambdas and methods; looks like it recursively walks some tree structure.
2017-07-03T10:34:34Z malice: Since deflate's definition looks quite simple, I don't really know what could be the cause. I couldn'
2017-07-03T10:35:53Z malice: I couldn't stop anything fishy, and as I said, it works on my laptop. I tried clearing ASDF's cache (asdf:clear-configuration) and (asdf:clear-source-registry) but it did not help.
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2017-07-03T10:38:05Z p_l: malice: what implementation, btw?
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2017-07-03T10:40:34Z malice: p_l:  SBCL 1.3.18
2017-07-03T10:40:50Z malice: ASDF version: 3.1.5
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2017-07-03T10:46:02Z BW^-_: beach,p_l: back.
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2017-07-03T10:58:56Z shka: hey folks
2017-07-03T10:59:11Z shka: i have question regarding history of programming
2017-07-03T10:59:24Z shka: when docstrings where invented?
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2017-07-03T11:07:10Z BW^-: bbl
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2017-07-03T13:39:07Z tapioco: hi
2017-07-03T13:39:19Z tapioco: please how can I escape " inside css-lite:css
2017-07-03T13:39:23Z tapioco: thanks
2017-07-03T13:41:22Z edgar-rft: I've no idea about css-lite but the first thing I would try is writing \" instead of "
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2017-07-03T14:13:28Z Younder: As a general rule unless your database is really bit try a db in mem. Much better perceived response. Particularly for web which is read mostly.
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2017-07-03T14:15:28Z Younder: https://franz.com/products/allegrocache/ of a free alternative
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2017-07-03T14:17:07Z p_l: Except when you need more than one host to access it, and then suddenly many database offerings (or even plain Redis) do the caching for you
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2017-07-03T14:24:46Z Younder: Agreed, many servers, ACID compliance, now postgresql seems right.
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2017-07-03T14:25:50Z Younder: It's that mysql isam thing the falls between two chairs
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2017-07-03T14:44:08Z p_l: well, yeah
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2017-07-03T15:47:27Z dim: if you're not too sure about what database to pick, just pick PostgreSQL, you won't be disappointed
2017-07-03T15:48:05Z dim: (and soon you will be able to read my book about it, intended at developers who want to make the most out of picking postgresql)
2017-07-03T15:48:26Z dim: (sorry for self promotion, couldn't resist)
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2017-07-03T16:55:16Z stara: How create executable file (Common Lisp)?
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2017-07-03T16:57:34Z dim: clhs save-application-and-dir
2017-07-03T16:57:34Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for save-application-and-dir.
2017-07-03T16:57:37Z dim: clhs save-application-and-die
2017-07-03T16:57:37Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for save-application-and-die.
2017-07-03T16:57:44Z Bike: depends on your implementation. there's generally a "dump image" function.
2017-07-03T16:57:47Z Bike: it's not standard.
2017-07-03T16:58:01Z dim: I guess it's de-facto standard?
2017-07-03T16:58:10Z dim: there's also buildapp and other tools
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2017-07-03T17:03:08Z stara: How do executable file (Common Lisp)?
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2017-07-03T17:03:52Z Bike: did you not see our replies?
2017-07-03T17:04:04Z phoe: stara: UIOP:DUMP-IMAGE
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2017-07-03T17:05:04Z stara: Bike I went out.
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2017-07-03T17:18:51Z Younder: dim save-lisp-and-die is SBCL specific
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2017-07-03T17:37:44Z shka_: he all
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2017-07-03T17:51:02Z optikalmouse: hello hello
2017-07-03T17:55:51Z phoe: hey optikalmouse
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2017-07-03T18:51:14Z epipping points at https://github.com/epipping/cl-echo which shows how to build a trivial standalone executable with asdf
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2017-07-03T21:14:33Z emaczen: is there a default restart that I can invoke which will just retry calling the function that failed?
2017-07-03T21:15:17Z dim: usually at the interactive debugger there's one named 'retry
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2017-07-03T21:16:00Z emaczen: dim: I have seen that, but I want to invoke the restart in a handler
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2017-07-03T22:47:42Z nyigki: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: azrazalea Cthulhux malcom2073 zbigniew_ trocado Oladon dcluna ``Erik fiddlerwoaroof phadthai butterthebuddha varuaa whartung Sovereign_Bleak voidlily ecraven j0ni isoraqathedh cibs eMBee GuilOooo gko beaky DGASAU fe[nl]ix d4gg4d_ diegs_ tapioco grumble gadwin_ thinkpad larsen brendos zkat safe kjak_ dim rotty antismap` thijso eazar001 sveit pareidolia cross pacon_ Zotan ec\ jasom zymurgy leo_song

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2017-07-03T22:48:07Z mvkwzkjy: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: larsen fluxit koisoke mulk Blkt_ safe ryanbw c0dehero Riviera brucem pok Arcaelyx tephra jyc_ krrrcks White_Flame arrdem diegs_ ft malm grublet Guest54503 Subfusc gadwin_ oleo kajo Jesin krator44 defaultxr Zotan Guest81856 gko PuercoPop gendl voidlily SiCC capisce xantoz sohail_ argoneus gremly hiq[m] Karunamon|2 rvirding l1x jself nimiux adulteratedjedi amerlyq wizzo

2017-07-03T22:48:08Z mvkwzkjy: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Karunamon|2 White_Flame peterhil mklk_ banjiewen Bike justinmcp_ mulk krrrcks xantoz safe cods ozzloy c0dehero trocado MrWoohoo thinkpad stux|RC-only shrdlu68 myrkraverk cibs askatasuna SlashLife guaqua_ Walex2 omilu phoe arrsim snits_ Nikotiini malm X-Scale jibanes oleo vert2 Lord_Nightmare arrdem foom2 eMBee spacepluk Jach[m] cpape beach dschoepe Blkt_ Reinisch thorondor[m] chat____4 eagleflo chu

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2017-07-03T22:48:22Z tarvpnhx: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: funnel Firedancer_ dan64 Subfusc Zotan jasom bailon eagleflo libreman stux|RC-only redcedar mood moei jibanes Merv vhost- sbryant jdz Riviera brucem arrsim clog Kevslinger jyc_ shrdlu68 zuz djh krasnal ccl-logbot wizzo malcom2073 larme renard_ HDurer2 tokenrove trig-ger itruslove lieven keviv orivej joga Lord_Nightmare Fade clamchowder foom2 grumble Odin- jean377_ jerme_ splittist

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2017-07-03T22:48:37Z grublet: neat
2017-07-03T22:48:46Z kajo: what
2017-07-03T22:48:48Z joga: I liked the instant Killed..
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2017-07-03T22:48:55Z fyjbgbis: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: LyndsySimon Jach[m] dan64 fluter arrsim optikalmouse jean377_ eagleflo diegs_ jibanes keviv Enderbsd foom2 Patzy angavri chu ccl-logbot borodust Fade mfiano rann grublet renard_ Odin- slyrus mulk oleo itruslove gbyers Suzuran kush chat____4 felideon sohail_ Firedancer_ jself lonjil zaquest l1x dlowe xantoz p_l scymtym vsync bend3r_ Bike knicklux gabot quazimodo krrrcks

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2017-07-03T22:49:00Z joga: heh
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2017-07-03T22:49:12Z diegs_: the hell is goin on in this channel recently
2017-07-03T22:49:13Z Reinisch: (setq *racism* nil)
2017-07-03T22:49:16Z Bike: next time i see one of their posters i should burn it instead of just tearing it down
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2017-07-03T22:49:19Z thinwmw: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: nopf rjeli trn sveit nicdev felideon White_Flame krrrcks sondr3 TMA funnel dschoepe rann PuercoPop bailon nightfly GGMethos dtornabene_ HDurer Zotan slyrus angerTr0n raydeejay Arcaelyx p_l ski vert2 abbe cross Odin- gremly peterhil d4gg4d_ Colleen dwrngr filwisher Zhivago froggey velvetcore_ EvW fluxit lieven koisoke clamchowder Aritheanie mklk_ Jesin tokenrove gabot SlashLife

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2017-07-03T22:49:32Z Bike: diegs_: they're just spamming freenode channels randomly. we got a lot of them last year
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2017-07-03T22:50:20Z joga: aww for them I guess
2017-07-03T22:50:29Z optikalmouse: well, that was uncalled for.
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2017-07-03T22:50:50Z joga: not that much can be done without premoderation
2017-07-03T22:51:02Z kajo: can't fe[nl]ix ban them
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2017-07-03T22:51:15Z joga: a random nickname and random host?
2017-07-03T22:51:35Z joga: it's someone's money and time anyway...losers
2017-07-03T22:51:48Z kajo: ah i see
2017-07-03T22:51:53Z kajo: meh
2017-07-03T22:52:06Z shenghi: Happened in the weekend, too.
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2017-07-03T22:52:18Z axion: Banning won't do much.
2017-07-03T22:52:25Z joga: +m sorta helps but is bothersome
2017-07-03T22:52:29Z axion: You;d have to set a channel mode to be registered to send to it
2017-07-03T22:52:34Z grublet: my question is, why is it targeting only #lisp?
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2017-07-03T22:52:46Z joga: maybe because there's no restriction
2017-07-03T22:52:53Z grublet: good point
2017-07-03T22:53:01Z kajo: perhaps a restriction would be a good idea then
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2017-07-03T22:53:27Z kajo: especially if it happens so frequently
2017-07-03T22:53:31Z joga: I've been idling in a lot of ~empty chans on ircnet that are non-secret and they get all sorts of spam every now and then, just a hit-and-run urling
2017-07-03T22:53:32Z diegs_: Seriously, i'm not getting this in any other channels
2017-07-03T22:54:03Z axion: Well tomaw is here
2017-07-03T22:54:08Z joga: someone just scripts some stuff to iterate through all public channels and spams msg
2017-07-03T22:54:12Z axion: If anyone can fix it he can
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2017-07-03T22:55:34Z fkac: Well that was new
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2017-07-03T22:56:08Z joga: eventually without some sort of ID, there will just be a constant flood of whatever shit someone wants to spam
2017-07-03T22:56:44Z joga: although it's sort of a bother either way
2017-07-03T22:57:05Z phadthai: "they discover lisp, then, the illumination is so great that they just lose their mind and become spamming robots"
2017-07-03T22:57:20Z shenghi: Then again, registering with nickserv is easily automated, too.
2017-07-03T22:57:33Z joga: maybe someone ought to find out who all of those hosts belong to
2017-07-03T22:57:47Z axion: joga: tor exit nodes
2017-07-03T22:58:00Z joga: oh, freenode allowed those.. ok
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2017-07-03T23:00:39Z Lord_Nightmare: hmm is the channel set to mode +I where you must be nickserv identified to talk?
2017-07-03T23:00:45Z Lord_Nightmare: or whatever mode that is
2017-07-03T23:00:50Z White_Flame: what a bunch of naggers
2017-07-03T23:01:07Z joga: "#lisp(+Ccntz"
2017-07-03T23:01:50Z joga: ..so no, I don't think so, otherwise it would probably require some extra effort from whatever loser is doing that
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2017-07-03T23:04:39Z White_Flame: I idle on ~15 freenode channels, and I never see spam like this outside of #lisp
2017-07-03T23:06:14Z axion: That is not +I
2017-07-03T23:06:17Z axion: That is +r
2017-07-03T23:06:40Z joga: maybe they're just on the letter L on their alphabetical list of victim channels right now
2017-07-03T23:07:00Z joga: maybe words in the english dict or so
2017-07-03T23:07:00Z joga: :p
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2017-07-03T23:07:27Z axion: White_Flame: I idle on about 50 and don't see it either
2017-07-03T23:08:03Z axion: It's because the operators here do not care for restrictive rules, and the spammers know this is a channel with a good amount of users with its shield down
2017-07-03T23:08:33Z White_Flame: most of the other channels I'm in are wide open, too
2017-07-03T23:08:35Z joga: unfortunately there's also some channels with good purpose but no actual mods nor ops these days
2017-07-03T23:08:43Z axion: Which ones?
2017-07-03T23:08:48Z axion: Do they have 400 users
2017-07-03T23:09:03Z joga: well the one I was thinking about has 165
2017-07-03T23:09:18Z p_l: axion: the problem is that it's non-trivial to fight against attacks like those
2017-07-03T23:09:29Z axion: p_l: True, but +r goes a long way
2017-07-03T23:09:32Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah, this is the biggest channel I"m in.  Most are 30-80 nicks
2017-07-03T23:09:37Z joga: and mostly it's been harassed by some sort of a real person who's just an incompetent arrogant dick, just ruining the channel
2017-07-03T23:09:59Z p_l: axion: for various reasons, the policy of #lisp was to not go +r
2017-07-03T23:10:35Z p_l: mostly, a possibly misguided, desire to make a more open and welcoming place than the shitfest of c.l.l
2017-07-03T23:10:46Z p_l: (try to browse without huge kill-file...)
2017-07-03T23:10:58Z axion: indeed. Like I said, the operators do not care that they are the biggest target on this IRC network
2017-07-03T23:11:26Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-07-03T23:11:27Z p_l: umm...
2017-07-03T23:11:47Z p_l: #go-nuts was just attacked, with barely response, and they have 3.5× the users
2017-07-03T23:12:23Z p_l: we're far from biggest target, unless you mean lisp-specific trolls
2017-07-03T23:13:03Z joga: somehow I don't think whoever does that cares about lisp specifically
2017-07-03T23:13:10Z p_l: yep
2017-07-03T23:13:22Z axion: Sorry, amoung the biggest. Out of the 50 or so channels I'm in, about 10 of them have more than 500, and they are all +r for a reason.
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2017-07-03T23:13:37Z p_l: and random nicks and IPs mean it's hard to fix unless I do a big +q or +r
2017-07-03T23:14:49Z p_l: aaand now it's emacs
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2017-07-03T23:15:15Z p_l: one day I won't care anymore and just find a way to send mob to their basements
2017-07-03T23:15:19Z axion: :)
2017-07-03T23:15:50Z p_l: +r and such are fine and dandy, but mutiliated dickhead paraded across *chans is better
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2017-07-03T23:18:39Z p_l: could probably do +b $~a, but some people might complain
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2017-07-03T23:21:36Z Ellenor licks p_l
2017-07-03T23:21:47Z Ellenor: You're talking about a program written in C in a channel for Lisp
2017-07-03T23:21:58Z Ellenor: and I'm an interloper who prefers Tcl
2017-07-03T23:22:09Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2017-07-03T23:22:43Z p_l: which C program? There are IRC libs in CL, you know :)
2017-07-03T23:22:56Z p_l: (and the rest was a case of channels, not programs)
2017-07-03T23:23:04Z Ellenor: p_l: ircd-seven in written in C
2017-07-03T23:23:09Z Ellenor: as is Atheme-services
2017-07-03T23:23:25Z p_l: Ellenor: and neither changes much from our point of view, though
2017-07-03T23:23:38Z Ellenor: except it does, because extbans aren't implemented in all ircds
2017-07-03T23:23:49Z Ellenor: p_l: I'll be honest, I am not supposed to be here. I'm the type to prefer Tool Command Language over Common Lisp.
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2017-07-03T23:24:41Z p_l: Ellenor: well, extbans being a thing of our local environment, it doesn't matter if they are implemented in C, Tcl, Erlang or pixie dust ;)
2017-07-03T23:24:48Z p_l: (TCL is pretty nice, though)
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2017-07-03T23:25:26Z Ellenor: p_l: an IRCd i wrote in Tcl does not implement extbans
2017-07-03T23:25:35Z Ellenor: if that's any hint as to why language is relevant
2017-07-03T23:26:38Z Ellenor: but as is lineage - Charybdis was the first IRCd in its family tree (ircd2.8.21 -> hybrid 7 -> ratbox -> charybdis) to implement extbans, so anything based off it can have extbans too
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2017-07-03T23:29:23Z sebboh: grublet, diegs_, joga: it's been in several channels, #lisp is the most recent I've seen.  ##networking was the second most recent.
2017-07-03T23:29:44Z diegs_: just happened in #emacs
2017-07-03T23:30:07Z sebboh: #fsf was also hit, like yesterday or the day before.  I'm not sure the url was the same then, and the message wasn't.
2017-07-03T23:30:08Z p_l: yeah, on those days I really wonder about keepin the channel -r
2017-07-03T23:31:02Z Ellenor: p_l: are you an op here
2017-07-03T23:31:05Z sebboh: well, on that topic, lemme kill/yank what I just said elsewhere...
2017-07-03T23:31:13Z p_l: yes
2017-07-03T23:31:20Z p_l: less active now than I used to be, but yes
2017-07-03T23:31:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2017-07-03T23:31:36Z p_l bows
2017-07-03T23:31:42Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2017-07-03T23:31:59Z sebboh: 'I "grew up" on EFnet, so when I first came to freenode, I didn't reflexively register...  I stayed unregistered for a long time.  I was blocked from many channels...  I think you're right to keep the +q $~a off as often as possible.'  [ed: +q $~a is similar to +r]
2017-07-03T23:32:49Z Ellenor: i just subtlespammed #emacs
2017-07-03T23:32:52Z Ellenor: :/
2017-07-03T23:33:04Z grublet: im not in either of those channels
2017-07-03T23:33:15Z Ellenor: sebboh: efnet's a pretty shit network tbh
2017-07-03T23:33:23Z mrottenkolber: dim: let me know when you publish the book
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2017-07-03T23:36:40Z sebboh: Ellenor: 1997 me thinks you are wrong.  2017 me doesn't know.
2017-07-03T23:37:03Z Ellenor: sebboh: I got unofficially banned from efnet, not by the opers, but by the script kiddies
2017-07-03T23:37:20Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2017-07-03T23:37:45Z sebboh: That's fascinating.  I, too, had adventures on the internet.
2017-07-03T23:38:25Z Ellenor: If I connect to efnet, I am considered so repulsive by the script kiddie elites that they'll packet me, and I'm probably too toxic to convince Raphidae to call up one of his oper buddies to get me a spoof
2017-07-03T23:38:28Z fkac: TBH #emacs is mostly spam
2017-07-03T23:38:30Z fkac: Just the civilised sort
2017-07-03T23:39:09Z Ellenor: because if a server admin spoofs me, and I use that spoof, and a skiddie gets mad at me, suddenly that server admin will be packeted
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2017-07-03T23:39:59Z Ellenor: sebboh: Also it's considered bad form to waste a second space between your sentences. What I write is perfectly readable with one space after the full stop, so what you write would be too.
2017-07-03T23:40:36Z fkac thinks it's nice
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2017-07-03T23:42:02Z Ellenor: sebboh: And on a chat system designed back when every byte cost a dollar, you're barking mad to even be speaking in full sentences! Let alone putting a second space after a punct-space train
2017-07-03T23:42:36Z White_Flame: txt spk iz teh deval
2017-07-03T23:43:04Z White_Flame: Proper spelling, punctuation, and old-school two spaces after periods is perfectly professional
2017-07-03T23:43:05Z fkac: It is one's duty to gzip one's messages
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2017-07-03T23:45:24Z sebboh: Message rendering is a client-side issue.
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2017-07-03T23:52:47Z White_Flame: I would wildly guess that most IRC clients use monospace fonts
2017-07-03T23:53:29Z White_Flame: although even with a proportional font, there usually isn't a wide-space added in after periods anyway, so double spaces still works well
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2017-07-03T23:54:43Z axion: The desired or correct sentence spacing is often debated but many sources now say additional space is not necessary or desirable. From around 1950, single sentence spacing became standard in books, magazines and newspapers, and the majority of style guides that use a Latin-derived alphabet as a language base now prescribe or recommend the use of a single space after the concluding punctuation of a sentence.
2017-07-03T23:55:24Z White_Flame: it also depends on what you mean by "space" ;)
2017-07-03T23:55:48Z White_Flame: as a period + normal proportional space is still often less wide then an em
2017-07-03T23:55:51Z axion: French-space
2017-07-04T00:00:17Z dim: we have plenty of them
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2017-07-04T00:00:54Z dim: e.g. if you need to have the pen up while drawing a punctuation character then you need a non-breaking space before it
2017-07-04T00:01:09Z dim: as in « comment ça va ? »
2017-07-04T00:01:19Z dim: but not in « ça va. »
2017-07-04T00:01:50Z dim: and of course the space are not the same around quotes and semi-colons etc
2017-07-04T00:02:55Z axion: The French space is just a synonym for a space no wider than a single word-space from what I've read.
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2017-07-04T00:03:18Z dim: so apparently (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadratin) there's something similar in English with em and en spaces, but we have yet another one in French
2017-07-04T00:04:16Z dim: the thing is that the space before e.g. ; must be a no-break space
2017-07-04T00:04:18Z White_Flame: there's more spaces than just em and en in english, too.  There's narrower ones for between subsequent quotes, like "Foo said 'bar' "
2017-07-04T00:04:31Z dim: oh nice
2017-07-04T00:04:44Z axion: There's also an 'en quad'
2017-07-04T00:05:31Z axion: Which means 1.5 word spaces.
2017-07-04T00:06:14Z dim: I'm glad for latex to being quite good about all that
2017-07-04T00:06:35Z edgar-rft: the outer-space is probably the widest of all
2017-07-04T00:06:53Z White_Flame: But I firmly dislike typical french spacing; there's not enough visual distinction between words vs between sentences
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2017-07-04T00:07:24Z White_Flame: and therefore two spaces on IRC etc etc block the spammers, or something
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2017-07-04T00:08:27Z dim: meanwhile it looks like the next pgloader release is going to be the most solid up to date
2017-07-04T00:11:09Z axion: edgar-rft: character-wise probably. However typesetting and printers have the ability to add variable width spaces as a means to left and right justify text perfectly.
2017-07-04T00:12:26Z axion: Oh that was a joke.
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2017-07-04T02:23:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: cool, I was just looking at pgloader for a project at work
2017-07-04T02:24:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: some of our servers store their data in a combination of mongo + mysql and I've been trying to figure out how much trouble it'd be to make it all postgres
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2017-07-04T05:23:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-04T05:32:51Z slyrus: morning beach
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2017-07-04T05:47:53Z drmeister: Hello all
2017-07-04T05:48:06Z beach: Hello drmeister.
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2017-07-04T08:13:15Z otwieracz: Hi. It seems like there's no special error condition when there's no applicable method - I'm getting just SIMPLE-ERROR. Is this possible to somehow handle (with handler-case) case, when there is no applicable method?
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2017-07-04T08:16:30Z loke`: otwieracz: Yes. You can write a method NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD
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2017-07-04T08:16:46Z loke`: it will be called when there is no method, and it can be used as a final callback of sorts.
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2017-07-04T08:17:50Z loke`: You can raise an error of your choosing from there
2017-07-04T08:18:10Z jackdaniel: (defmethod no-applicable-method ((function (eql #'my-generic-function)) &rest args) …)
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2017-07-04T08:22:31Z otwieracz: thanks!
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2017-07-04T09:53:59Z otwieracz: I've got another similiar question - how can I handle assertion error?
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2017-07-04T09:54:14Z otwieracz: Because, what suprised me, it's also throwing simple-error.
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2017-07-04T09:55:44Z otwieracz: Seems like I need to pass different type as a DATUM…
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2017-07-04T10:01:33Z beach: Yes, the datum and arguments can be the name of a condition type and the initargs for that type.
2017-07-04T10:01:41Z beach: Just like for ERROR, WARNING, etc.
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2017-07-04T11:10:26Z dim: how would you parse-integer but for floats?
2017-07-04T11:10:59Z loke`: dim: There is a library on QL called PARSE-FLOAT
2017-07-04T11:12:54Z dim: thx, having a look!
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2017-07-04T11:17:27Z dim: and now wondering why I would have to parse a string that might contain either integers or floats when the source might be trustable after all (db3 files)... anyway
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2017-07-04T11:39:39Z ots: hey. Is there a preferred css library for relatively new cl users? I want to insert css inline but cant judge which of the libraries (f.x. css-lite & cl-css) are good/mature/dead. general experiences?
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2017-07-04T11:43:30Z axion: I would recommend LASS
2017-07-04T11:43:44Z jackdaniel: css-lite is a popular choice
2017-07-04T11:43:49Z axion: https://github.com/Shinmera/LASS
2017-07-04T11:44:18Z axion: Unless you like ignoring the DRY principle
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2017-07-04T11:46:07Z easye: I kinda like the ability of CSS-LITE to not need to quote its argument unlike LASS.
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2017-07-04T11:47:29Z axion: Well it is evaluated
2017-07-04T11:47:48Z axion: This is the key beind not repeating yourself with LASS
2017-07-04T11:48:04Z jackdaniel smells a holy war
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2017-07-04T11:53:59Z stara: How compile file (Common Lisp) to .exe?
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2017-07-04T11:55:56Z axion: The same way we told you before
2017-07-04T11:56:29Z stara: I didn't solve.
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2017-07-04T11:59:52Z ots: axion & jackdaniels: ty. ill look into those two with your opinions in mind:)
2017-07-04T12:00:55Z stara: Whether in Lisp I can create console application?
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2017-07-04T12:03:51Z nydel: i think cl-build or something? i'd just avoid it altogether if possible. 99.9% of .exe files should never have been compiled as far as i can tell
2017-07-04T12:04:43Z axion: UIOP:DUMP-IMAGE
2017-07-04T12:04:53Z jackdaniel: stara: check out https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php
2017-07-04T12:05:12Z jackdaniel: you'll have good synopsis definition abstraction and actual documentation how to do things
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2017-07-04T12:11:49Z stara: In that case what can be created in common lisp?
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2017-07-04T12:13:01Z jackdaniel: it's a general purpose programming language, so basically anything your computer is capable of
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2017-07-04T12:15:29Z axion: Here is an example of something I made yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh9Cgj_BVj8
2017-07-04T12:15:55Z axion: Just a stupid little demo I've been working on :)
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2017-07-04T12:21:16Z stara: Why it:
2017-07-04T12:21:18Z stara: sbcl --load my-program.lisp --load  uiop --eval '(uiop/image:dump-image "my-program.exe" :executable t)'
2017-07-04T12:21:21Z stara: Not work?
2017-07-04T12:22:57Z jackdaniel: do you have file uiop there?
2017-07-04T12:24:06Z stara: Yes.
2017-07-04T12:24:19Z jackdaniel: what does it contain?
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2017-07-04T12:24:30Z jackdaniel: what is the error message?
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2017-07-04T12:25:29Z stara: The variable SBCL is unbound.
2017-07-04T12:25:29Z stara:    [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE]
2017-07-04T12:26:08Z jackdaniel: do you know how repl works?
2017-07-04T12:26:30Z jackdaniel: you have pasted a shell command, while it seems you have typed it in the repl
2017-07-04T12:26:36Z stara: not completely
2017-07-04T12:27:38Z stara: I paste it to: slime-repl sbcl.
2017-07-04T12:28:58Z axion: I would recommend before continuing you at least read Practical Common Lisp - for free on the website.
2017-07-04T12:29:09Z axion: You would be doing yourself a huge favor in doing so
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2017-07-04T12:29:54Z stara: I read a little.
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2017-07-04T12:31:08Z axion: Read it all,and do all the practicals.
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2017-07-04T12:31:47Z _death: in sbcl you can do (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "my-program.exe" :executable t :toplevel #'my-main-function)
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2017-07-04T12:33:28Z _death: also, better do it without slime
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2017-07-04T12:42:34Z stara: Cannot save core with multiple threads running.
2017-07-04T12:43:09Z axion: also, better do it without slime
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2017-07-04T13:03:57Z nydel: it might be worth saying something like: i am running at least 10 commonlisp programs right now that are essential to my system's functioning and i have never compiled one of them to an executable. i.e. unless you have been assigned to create an executable you might do well to look at thinking of programming an interpreted language.
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2017-07-04T13:04:31Z beach: What language is it that you call "interpreted"?
2017-07-04T13:04:53Z beach: Normally, whether something is interpreted or not is a property of the implementation and not of the language.
2017-07-04T13:05:38Z nydel: at the moment, beach ? commonlisp. in the context it seems like a beginner is trying to create an executable on account of a lack of familiarity with REPL conceptually.
2017-07-04T13:05:46Z nydel: just trying to be helpful
2017-07-04T13:07:16Z beach: I suggest you try to use the correct terminology, even if stara is a beginner.  Using "interpreted" instead of "interactive" or "dynamic" may give the wrong idea, since "interpreted" typically implies "slow".
2017-07-04T13:07:58Z nydel: ah i see. noted & thank you kindly for the correction
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2017-07-04T13:08:18Z beach: Sure.
2017-07-04T13:08:43Z dim: also your binary image includes to whole of SBCL/CCL/... and so is able to interpret and compile code at runtime
2017-07-04T13:09:27Z dim: one day I'll get back to fixing --upgrade-from path/to/updated/sources for pgloader, so that users are able to try a bugfix without having to consider the whole build environment
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2017-07-04T13:14:05Z nydel: i need to better separate my ideas of commonlisp the language and commonlisp as my latest build of sbcl. it can become so practical to think only in terms of the latter that one forgets to equally value cl as a language.
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2017-07-04T13:23:37Z fkuc: stara: Just for the record, some Linux distributions only have packages for single-threaded SBCL
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2017-07-04T13:23:58Z fkuc: It's probably best to download the latest version if you haven't
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2017-07-04T13:24:22Z stara: fkuc I know.
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2017-07-04T14:42:02Z jackdaniel: it seems that Polos managed to run EQL5 on Android: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android
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2017-07-04T15:20:47Z pjb: Yay Polos!
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2017-07-04T17:18:42Z phoe: This is great news!
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2017-07-04T21:49:06Z krwq: is there a way to measure time with accuracy of at least 0.1ms?
2017-07-04T21:50:03Z krwq: get-internal-time seems to be able to handle only up to 1ms
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2017-07-04T21:51:23Z p_l: krwq: might be platform specific
2017-07-04T21:51:28Z krwq: raspberry pi?
2017-07-04T21:51:36Z p_l: (hell, that might require CPU pinning and TSC-like stuff)
2017-07-04T21:52:46Z krwq: i'm trying to control speed of the stepper motor fairly acurrately and i can only use sleep right now which is quite annoying
2017-07-04T21:53:31Z p_l: krwq: I recommend a) looking into efficient syscall calling b) read man 7 time
2017-07-04T21:53:52Z p_l: there are High-Resolution Timers provided by linux
2017-07-04T21:56:26Z krwq: p_l, isn't 7 Objects? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
2017-07-04T21:56:37Z p_l: krwq: I meant linux manual :)
2017-07-04T21:56:40Z krwq: this looks promising http://www.raspberry-projects.com/pi/programming-in-c/timing/clock_gettime-for-acurate-timing
2017-07-04T21:56:46Z p_l: section 7, time
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2017-07-04T21:59:08Z krwq: thanks p_l, I'll do some more cffi, I wish there was something portable
2017-07-04T21:59:21Z p_l: krwq: high-res timers usually aren't
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2017-07-04T21:59:52Z p_l: might want to look into non-consing code to run inside (without-interrupts) block
2017-07-04T22:00:31Z krwq: microseconds are fairly slow for 900MHz processor
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2017-07-04T22:01:51Z p_l: krwq: when the standard were written, 900MHz was a song of the future
2017-07-04T22:01:59Z p_l: then you need to include all the overheads etc.
2017-07-04T22:02:18Z krwq: p_l will look into that when I notice some hickups
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2017-07-04T22:04:07Z krwq: btw, should we update the standard perhaps?
2017-07-04T22:04:20Z krwq: would make life easier a bit
2017-07-04T22:05:08Z flavio81: krwq: if you want to control a stepper motor, it would be easier to have an Arduino board do all the timing and control, and then interface that board to your PC (under lisp)
2017-07-04T22:05:35Z krwq: i already control it from my pc
2017-07-04T22:05:35Z flavio81: krwq: it will make subsequent things easier, if you need to interface with the outside world
2017-07-04T22:05:43Z krwq: pi has wi-fi
2017-07-04T22:05:54Z krwq: im connecting with swank
2017-07-04T22:06:31Z krwq: not sure if this is what you meant
2017-07-04T22:06:54Z flavio81: krwq: then CFFI is the answer if you already have a C call that will get you the resolution you want
2017-07-04T22:07:38Z krwq: checking it, haven't got that much experience with cffi, only did simple calls so far, no structs :P
2017-07-04T22:07:44Z pjb: flavio81: you're already running CL on RaspBerryPi, driving the motors with GPIO!
2017-07-04T22:07:46Z pjb: ;-)
2017-07-04T22:08:40Z krwq: what's your project flavio81?
2017-07-04T22:08:46Z krwq: on pi
2017-07-04T22:09:14Z flavio81: pjb: no, i don't use any raspberry pi. I'm just making suggestions.
2017-07-04T22:09:43Z krwq: swank wasn't working out of the box, had to disable IPv6
2017-07-04T22:09:55Z flavio81: if i was going to need to control a stepper motor and needed real-time and precision, then i would use an arduino, or look a way to install a real-time OS on a raspberry
2017-07-04T22:10:21Z flavio81: because otherwise the raspberry will behave like a normal computer, with an OS that manages the threads and you don't have any guarantee of the timings etc
2017-07-04T22:10:49Z flavio81: and since there are so many arduino boards ("shields") available for all kinds of stuff including of course motor control, then it should be easy
2017-07-04T22:10:59Z krwq: stepper is already running, trying to get more control now :) I'm adding logic to keep an eye on timing now, that's why I need to measure time
2017-07-04T22:11:29Z krwq: i already played with atmega in the past, decided to run lisp on pi and will finish it :P
2017-07-04T22:11:35Z flavio81: pjb: there is "lispm" on HN who has a personal webpage that is hosted on a raspberry Pi, and running CL for the server
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2017-07-04T22:11:48Z flavio81: krwq: ok !
2017-07-04T22:12:24Z flavio81: http://lispm.de
2017-07-04T22:12:30Z flavio81: that's on a Raspberry Pi
2017-07-04T22:12:51Z krwq: not changing any technologies anymore, changing techs has got me stuck for too long right now
2017-07-04T22:13:24Z flavio81: ok
2017-07-04T22:13:30Z pjb: I would start by making some computation about the timings and lattencies of the linux kernel, including linux with the real-time option.
2017-07-04T22:14:04Z pjb: I wouldn't be surprized if with rt linux you could implement a driver to do the low-level precise timing required to drive hardware.
2017-07-04T22:14:06Z flavio81: but krwq has a point: if his machine is 900mHz, then 0.1ms is a loooong time
2017-07-04T22:14:39Z p_l: except modern CPUs have such things as pipeline stalls
2017-07-04T22:14:42Z pjb: Indeed. Even without RT.
2017-07-04T22:14:46Z p_l: and memory accesses are long
2017-07-04T22:14:52Z pjb: As long as you don't have swap memory…
2017-07-04T22:14:54Z flavio81: 90,000 cycles in 0.1msec
2017-07-04T22:15:22Z flavio81: true. No idea of the speed of memory I/O on the RPI
2017-07-04T22:15:47Z krwq: i was able to get 20kHz sine on 1Mhz proc, I will manage to 10kHz on 900MHz :P
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2017-07-04T22:17:41Z p_l: flavio81: just accessing L1 gives you 30k cycles instead of 90k
2017-07-04T22:18:21Z p_l: RAM access with no misses in TLB or anything is ~56 cycles
2017-07-04T22:18:33Z p_l: 116 if there was a primary TLB miss
2017-07-04T22:18:48Z p_l: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-gen-1/memory-hierarchy/
2017-07-04T22:18:55Z p_l: mind you, that's first raspberry pi
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2017-07-04T22:24:52Z flavio81: krwq: this is because you have to deal with the burden of the operating system, instead of being able to directly access the hardware (as one would do on Arduino or on a microcontroller or even on a home computer like Atari 800, Sinclair ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64, etc).
2017-07-04T22:25:16Z nonconveniens: super beginner question: i wrote a function that returns a list (in this case: "(1 2 . 3)") but when i pass it to (length (my-func)), i get an error: the value 3 is not of type list. is my function not returning a list that I can pass to length?
2017-07-04T22:25:19Z flavio81: you could easily output a 20KHz wave using an Atari 800 with it's 1.79MHz processor
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2017-07-04T22:25:56Z flavio81: (1 2 . 3) is not a list, syntax error
2017-07-04T22:26:19Z flavio81: dot operator creates a cons cell between a pair of atoms (or lists or whatever)
2017-07-04T22:26:21Z nonconveniens: flavio81 alright i kind of figured (very new to this)
2017-07-04T22:26:52Z nonconveniens: yeah, what does that dot mean, and how would i make it only (1 2 3)?
2017-07-04T22:27:27Z nonconveniens: the line that's making the list is (defvar begin '(1 2)) (append begin (apply '+ (nthcdr ( - (length begin) 2) begin)))
2017-07-04T22:27:32Z flavio81: ahaa...
2017-07-04T22:27:33Z flavio81: ok,
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2017-07-04T22:28:04Z nonconveniens: basically im appending a value to the end of a list but it throws that dot in there
2017-07-04T22:28:17Z nonconveniens: when i do (append list (new-thing-for-list))
2017-07-04T22:28:53Z flavio81: append does not modify any list, it creates a new list. now, i'm not sure what do you want to do
2017-07-04T22:29:11Z nonconveniens: ah i see
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2017-07-04T22:29:33Z nonconveniens: what would i use to modify a list instead of create a new one?
2017-07-04T22:29:34Z flavio81: by the way, something very important
2017-07-04T22:29:44Z flavio81: because you Do need to know what is a cons cell before using Lisp
2017-07-04T22:29:55Z flavio81: nonconveniens: the basic structure in lisp is the cons cell
2017-07-04T22:30:10Z nonconveniens: right
2017-07-04T22:30:19Z flavio81: cons cells have two elements, the left and the right, which are the CAR and the CDR
2017-07-04T22:30:23Z flavio81: (1. 2) is a cons cell
2017-07-04T22:30:27Z flavio81: the CAR is 1, the CDR is 2
2017-07-04T22:30:41Z flavio81: now, all LISTS in lisp are internally represented by cons cells in truth
2017-07-04T22:30:56Z flavio81: so '(1 2 3) is internally: '(1 . (2 . (3))
2017-07-04T22:30:57Z flavio81: get it?
2017-07-04T22:31:00Z nonconveniens: alright that makes sense
2017-07-04T22:31:12Z flavio81: '(1 2 3 4) is '(1 . (2 . (3 . 4) ) )
2017-07-04T22:31:24Z flavio81: so for example say '(1 2 3 4) is your variable *x*
2017-07-04T22:31:29Z flavio81: CAR *x* is 1
2017-07-04T22:31:30Z nonconveniens: i appreciate that, that makes sense
2017-07-04T22:31:34Z flavio81: CDR *x* is (2 3 4)
2017-07-04T22:31:48Z nonconveniens: (gotta go but i'll be back hopefully in a couple hours)
2017-07-04T22:32:02Z flavio81: if you don't want to say "car" and "cdr" you can use "first" and "rest", functions that do exactly the same
2017-07-04T22:32:26Z flavio81: okey, bye !
2017-07-04T22:32:30Z aeth: CL style generally prefers car and cdr because you can compose it like cadr and cdar and caddr.
2017-07-04T22:32:44Z aeth: Other Lisps vary with what they prefer but this is a CL channel.
2017-07-04T22:33:33Z flavio81: i prefer to use "first, rest, last, second, third" whenever possible. Those are also part of the ANSI Common Lisp standard.
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2017-07-04T22:34:24Z aeth: Yes, but "and" and "or" are part of C and C++, but people prefer && and || there.
2017-07-04T22:34:35Z flavio81: good point
2017-07-04T22:34:38Z aeth: Sometimes the less readable thing is the more common thing.
2017-07-04T22:34:58Z flavio81: are you sure and and or are there in C  ?
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2017-07-04T22:35:13Z flavio81: not in kerningan&ritchie
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2017-07-04T22:35:51Z aeth: I had this discussion earlier this year, either in #lisp or #lispgames and I wasn't 100% sure which (C or C++) and it doesn't even highlight in C in emacs iirc...
2017-07-04T22:35:57Z aeth: but iirc it turns out to be in both languages
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2017-07-04T22:36:21Z flavio81: aeth: must have had been added fairly recently (1999? C99 ?)
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2017-07-04T22:37:12Z flavio81: but I agree with you, it's a cultural thing
2017-07-04T22:37:41Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operators_in_C_and_C%2B%2B#Logical_operators
2017-07-04T22:38:06Z aeth: A footnote says that it requires this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_alternative_tokens
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2017-07-04T22:38:15Z aeth: 1995.
2017-07-04T22:38:17Z p_l: aeth: are and/or short-circuiting?
2017-07-04T22:38:19Z krwq: how do you write defcstruct with time_t where time_t has no constant size across platforms??
2017-07-04T22:38:30Z p_l: krwq: cffi-grovel
2017-07-04T22:38:53Z p_l: aeth: ahh, they are
2017-07-04T22:39:15Z aeth: I do prefer languages that have words over symbols except for basic arithmetic, like CL.
2017-07-04T22:39:39Z p_l: and sometimes one needs to write || as ??!??! :/
2017-07-04T22:39:44Z aeth: Iirc, some old Lisps used words instead of +, -, /, *, etc., but CL doesn't even have those for backwards compatibility
2017-07-04T22:39:48Z krwq: p_l thanks!
2017-07-04T22:40:38Z p_l: writing C code where blocks are delimited by ??< and ??> is weird :)
2017-07-04T22:40:50Z aeth: Cleverly, CL uses the old foo-equal for case-insensitive operations, like char-equal and string-equal
2017-07-04T22:42:20Z aeth: I think the right balance, as seen in many if not most modern languages, is to use symbols instead of words rarely, for things where there's no or almost no (in the case of =) confusion.
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2017-07-04T22:44:13Z flavio81: p_l in C, && and || are always short-circuiting
2017-07-04T22:44:27Z flavio81: p_l: in Common Lisp, they are shortcircuiting, but I don't know if this is always
2017-07-04T22:44:34Z p_l: flavio81: yes, my question came from not knowing if they were | or ||
2017-07-04T22:44:57Z p_l: flavio81: the macro ones (and, or) are always short-circuiting
2017-07-04T22:46:04Z flavio81: p_l yes, looks weird, but so looks weird, in Common Lisp, things like #.#+sbcl(do-this) #.#-sbcl(do that)
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2017-07-04T22:47:33Z flavio81: p_l: note that | is a bitwise operator in C, while || is a logical operator
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2017-07-05T00:11:29Z krwq: ok, will need to check that without-interrupts. on desktop I can get times quite accurately, on pi it most of the time works fine but once in a while I get hickups around 0.8s.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/350050
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2017-07-05T00:13:07Z krwq: either way - i was surprised i was able to write the whole expression in a single loop form
2017-07-05T00:15:07Z krwq: does cffi:with-foreign-object allocate?
2017-07-05T00:15:39Z krwq: if yes then that could explain the hickup
2017-07-05T00:15:53Z krwq: since i've allocated few million objects...
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2017-07-05T00:23:06Z Bike: yeah, it does, though i think ideally it's a stack allocation.
2017-07-05T00:24:11Z krwq: Bike: how can I check that?
2017-07-05T00:24:25Z Bike: whether it's a stack allocation?
2017-07-05T00:24:31Z krwq: yes
2017-07-05T00:24:40Z Bike: i guess macroexpand it and see what the implementation is doing.
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2017-07-05T00:28:46Z krwq: I'm seeing something like this, so I assume this is stackalloc? (SB-ALIEN-INTERNALS:MAKE-LOCAL-ALIEN '#<SB-ALIEN-INTERNALS:LOCAL-ALIEN-INFO (forced to stack) (ARRAY (SB-ALIEN:UNSIGNED 8) 8)>)
2017-07-05T00:30:30Z krwq: is there some kind of profiler I could use for that? I have a hard time reading this macroexpanded code
2017-07-05T00:31:36Z Bike: i don't know. maybe the sbcl manual has detailed stuff on profiler options.
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2017-07-05T01:15:35Z krwq: ok, seems like spikes are coming from GC http://paste.lisp.org/display/350052
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2017-07-05T02:58:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-05T03:11:24Z vtomole: morning beach
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2017-07-05T03:16:24Z beach: vtomole: Any progress on packages?
2017-07-05T03:16:54Z vtomole: A little. Still reading spec
2017-07-05T03:17:07Z beach: Good plan.
2017-07-05T03:17:27Z beach: Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions.
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2017-07-05T03:18:29Z beach: I remember that the description of packages in the Common Lisp HyperSpec was hard to understand.
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2017-07-05T03:19:35Z vtomole: The hyperspec in general is difficult. But i would solve a lot more bugs quickly if i was able to read it.
2017-07-05T03:20:03Z beach: Oh, you will get used to it.
2017-07-05T03:20:40Z beach: The problem is that it was not meant for people to learn the language.  It was meant to be read by people who write Common Lisp systems.
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2017-07-05T03:23:04Z nowhere_man: Hey guys, I"m struggling with Heroku buildpacks for CL
2017-07-05T03:23:22Z vtomole: nowhere_man: Whats up?
2017-07-05T03:23:26Z nowhere_man: basically none seems to actually work, are they unused or am I doing something utterly wrong
2017-07-05T03:23:37Z vtomole: I use it
2017-07-05T03:23:51Z nowhere_man: which one?
2017-07-05T03:24:25Z nowhere_man: I just tried https://github.com/orivej/heroku-buildpack-cl before trying the one he forked
2017-07-05T03:24:47Z nowhere_man: But if I used their suggested line for Procfile, SBCL doesn't find its core, for example!
2017-07-05T03:25:22Z vtomole: I built a website for mezzano last year with this:https://github.com/vtomole/MezzanoWebsite
2017-07-05T03:26:48Z vtomole: You can fork or clone it and play around with it
2017-07-05T03:27:13Z vtomole: The README still has the original buildpack:https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-buildpack-cl
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2017-07-05T03:27:46Z vtomole: nowhere_man: This is exactly what you need:https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-cl-example
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2017-07-05T03:29:31Z vtomole: beach: Are these name (defpackage and friends) defined already? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_aa.htm
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2017-07-05T03:32:18Z nonconveniens: question: what exactly is an &aux specifier? i'm looking at the hyperspec but i'm a bit confused
2017-07-05T03:32:45Z nowhere_man: vtomole: I know those first buildpacks, but my app is built a Ningle, not aserve or hunchentoot
2017-07-05T03:32:59Z nonconveniens: is putting &aux ____ in the parameter list for a function just a way to define a variable to be used in the function without requiring it to be provided as a parameter with the function call?
2017-07-05T03:33:15Z Bike: nonconveniens: it lets you define variable bindings based on expressions rather than arguments. it's like having a let* at the top of the function.
2017-07-05T03:33:33Z Bike: so yes, if you just have "&aux foo bar" there will be bindings for foo and bar (to nil)
2017-07-05T03:34:22Z nonconveniens: and just like let*, it binds variables in order
2017-07-05T03:34:25Z nonconveniens: ?
2017-07-05T03:35:01Z White_Flame: one way of looking at lisp is as a set of lambda scopes.  LET can be defined in terms of lambda parameters, as in (let ((foo bar)) (operate foo)) -> (funcall (lambda (foo) (operate foo)) bar)
2017-07-05T03:35:16Z beach: vtomole: Yes, those symbols are names of operators and variables that the standard defines already.
2017-07-05T03:35:24Z White_Flame: so &aux is one way of modeling everything with lambda
2017-07-05T03:35:51Z nonconveniens: i see White_Flame
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2017-07-05T03:36:06Z White_Flame: but I don't think I've ever seen &aux in the wild
2017-07-05T03:36:09Z beach: nonconveniens: Yes, like LET*.
2017-07-05T03:36:15Z vtomole: nowhere_man: So you did "heroku config:add CL_WEBSERVER=Nigle" What error are you getting?
2017-07-05T03:36:27Z White_Flame: remember that Common Lisp was a standardization of various industrial-use Lisps from back in the 1980s, when things were a lot different style-wise
2017-07-05T03:36:50Z White_Flame: so there's certainly some legacy in there
2017-07-05T03:37:16Z nonconveniens: I ask because I'm trying to do the Project Euler problems and I saw one solution that used (defun fun-name (a b &aux (something)) ... )
2017-07-05T03:37:40Z beach: nonconveniens: It saves a line of code in case that happens to be important.
2017-07-05T03:37:56Z nonconveniens: might not have been a project euler solution probably something else, but nonetheless i just figured i'd ask because i was a bit confused
2017-07-05T03:38:28Z beach: nonconveniens: Did you find a solution to your dotted-list problem?
2017-07-05T03:38:29Z White_Flame: btw, the parallel nature of the LET variables (let ((a x) (b cant-see-a)) ...) makes sense when you view it as (lambda (a b) ...) that gets passed in its parameters.  All the parameters are calculated before the lambda is invoked, and all are bound to the lambda's parameters in parallel
2017-07-05T03:39:34Z beach: White_Flame: That is true only if your function has only required parameters.
2017-07-05T03:39:40Z nonconveniens: White_Flame makes sense
2017-07-05T03:40:00Z White_Flame: beach: sure, converting LET to LAMBDA translates the LET variables into required parameters
2017-07-05T03:40:06Z nonconveniens: beach I gained some understanding but I have yet to figure out how to do what i need correctly
2017-07-05T03:40:12Z beach: White_Flame: Right.  Just checking.
2017-07-05T03:40:23Z vtomole: beach: How do you search for functions in the repo? Just by using grep?
2017-07-05T03:40:27Z beach: nonconveniens: Wrap the last expression in (list ...)
2017-07-05T03:40:48Z beach: nonconveniens: As in (append bla1 bla2) => (append bla1 (list bla2))
2017-07-05T03:41:07Z beach: vtomole: Depends on your criteria for searching.
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2017-07-05T03:41:29Z beach: vtomole: If you want everything related to packages, then go to the "packages dictionary".
2017-07-05T03:41:44Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_packag.htm
2017-07-05T03:42:10Z nonconveniens: beach: i will give that a shot i believe that will fix it
2017-07-05T03:42:13Z beach: vtomole: If you know the name, or the prefix of a name, then go to the symbol index.
2017-07-05T03:42:25Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm
2017-07-05T03:42:31Z vtomole: beach: These docs are very good.
2017-07-05T03:42:40Z beach: vtomole: The permuted index is sometimes helpful as well.
2017-07-05T03:43:20Z beach: vtomole: Yes, the standard is a very good specification.  But it makes very little effort to be pedagogical.
2017-07-05T03:43:35Z nonconveniens: beach: that worked! so, when i was writing (append begin (apply '+ (...))), the second form that's being appended is adding a dot?
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2017-07-05T03:43:59Z beach: nonconveniens: Your problem is that the last argument to APPEND was not a list.  It was an atom.
2017-07-05T03:44:11Z nonconveniens: ahhhhh
2017-07-05T03:44:16Z beach: nonconveniens: When append is given an atom as its last argument, it creates a dotted list.
2017-07-05T03:44:32Z nonconveniens: okay that makes sense
2017-07-05T03:44:37Z nonconveniens: thank you very much
2017-07-05T03:44:40Z vtomole: beach: I can't find those symbols in the SICL package directory though. Like defpackage
2017-07-05T03:45:00Z beach: vtomole: That's because they have not been written yet.  That's your job. :)
2017-07-05T03:45:54Z vtomole: beach: Ok that was my question
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2017-07-05T03:46:25Z vtomole: beach: You have defined some of them though, like make-package
2017-07-05T03:46:35Z beach: nonconveniens: Sure.  And, it is not quite correct to say "it adds a dot".  The dot itself is just a way of printing it.  If you have a list that prints like that, it means that the last CDR of the last CONS cell is an atom other than NIL.
2017-07-05T03:46:43Z beach: vtomole: Correct.
2017-07-05T03:47:37Z nonconveniens: and when i'm
2017-07-05T03:47:54Z nonconveniens: appending an atom, then it's not NIL, and the dot prints as such
2017-07-05T03:48:31Z beach: nonconveniens: Not quite the right way of expressing things.  There is no dot in the list, despite its name.
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2017-07-05T03:49:32Z beach: nonconveniens: More like this: When the last CDR of the last CONS cell is an atom other than NIL, then we say that it's a "dotted list".  When such a list is printed, the Common Lisp print function shows it with a dot preceding that atom.
2017-07-05T03:49:58Z nonconveniens: right, but the dot isn't an actual value in the list
2017-07-05T03:50:13Z beach: nonconveniens: When the CDR of the last CONS cell is NIL, it is called a "proper list".  Then the printer does not print a dot, and it does not print the NIL.
2017-07-05T03:50:13Z nonconveniens: it's just shown to represent it being a dotted list
2017-07-05T03:50:50Z White_Flame: a dot basically signifies a linked list pointer
2017-07-05T03:50:52Z beach: nonconveniens: Correct.  The "external representation" contains a dot.
2017-07-05T03:51:08Z nonconveniens: alrighty that makes more sense
2017-07-05T03:51:18Z beach: nonconveniens: "representation" is another overloaded word.
2017-07-05T03:52:12Z White_Flame: so (1 . 3) has a 3 for its next linked cell, instead of a "proper" cons cell for constructing lists
2017-07-05T03:52:25Z White_Flame: but it's just a 2-tuple that could be used for anything
2017-07-05T03:52:32Z White_Flame: lists are just a common usage scenario
2017-07-05T03:52:46Z nonconveniens: right right
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2017-07-05T04:00:20Z nowhere_man: actually my problem comes from Heroku running the slug in another directory than where it was compiled
2017-07-05T04:00:38Z nowhere_man: and some QL files use  *compile-file-truename*)
2017-07-05T04:01:21Z vtomole: nowhere_man: What directory is it running in and where is it compiled?
2017-07-05T04:02:10Z nowhere_man: it's compiled while in /app/tmp/cache/ but run in /app
2017-07-05T04:02:16Z nowhere_man: maybe just a symlink…
2017-07-05T04:06:55Z vtomole: That's how mine works too. I think. Its just the way asdf compiles files.Always does them in the cache...
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2017-07-05T04:15:49Z vtomole: beach: How much can you deviate from the spec? The spec says that packagep is implemented as a function, but you implemented it as a method.
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2017-07-05T04:16:41Z beach: vtomole: Actually, it is implemented as a generic function with a few methods on it.  The spec in general allows any function to be implemented as a generic function.
2017-07-05T04:17:19Z beach: vtomole: Similarly, it allows for a "system class" to be implemented as a built-in class OR as a standard class.
2017-07-05T04:17:41Z vtomole: Theres a difference?
2017-07-05T04:18:19Z beach: Yes.
2017-07-05T04:18:44Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
2017-07-05T04:19:02Z vtomole: beach: Nice!
2017-07-05T04:19:11Z beach: Thanks! :)
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2017-07-05T04:19:48Z vtomole: beach: Undefined functions that i'll add on the TODO in the README:FIND-PACKAGE,FIND-ALL-SYMBOLS,IMPORT,LIST-ALL-PACKAGES,RENAME-PACKAGE,SHADOW,DELETE-PACKAGE,WITH-PACKAGE-ITERATOR,UNEXPORT,UNINTERN,IN-PACKAGE,UNUSE-PACKAGE,USE-PACKAGE,DEFPACKAGE,DO-ALL-SYMBOLS,PACKAGE-NICKNAMES,*PACKAGE*,PACKAGE-ERROR,PACKAGE-ERROR-PACKAGE
2017-07-05T04:20:37Z beach: vtomole: We can remove a few.  Let me tell you why...
2017-07-05T04:21:10Z beach: For example, LIST-ALL-PACKAGES is not a function on packages.  It is a function that works on the environment.
2017-07-05T04:21:57Z beach: Similarly, *PACKAGE* is a symbol in the environment and is not directly related to the implementation of packages.
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2017-07-05T04:22:56Z vtomole: For sure. That's just a defparameter *package* or something...
2017-07-05T04:23:01Z beach: Same thing with FIND-PACKAGE.  It's an environment function.
2017-07-05T04:23:07Z beach: Yes.
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2017-07-05T04:24:30Z beach: In that figure, classes with red names are standard classes.  Classes with blue names are funcallable standard classes, and classes with green names are built-in classes.
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2017-07-05T04:48:37Z vtomole: beach: If you scroll down a bit i have the list:https://github.com/vtomole/SICL/tree/master/Code/Package/SICL-Specific
2017-07-05T04:48:57Z vtomole: beach: I will go in order, so i will start with find-package
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2017-07-05T05:10:58Z ots: Hey. I'm making a repost from #clnoobs, hope you don't mind (it is very quite there atm). What would be the simplest example of how to assign the value of a variable in CL to a variable in javascript using parenscript? I have trouble getting the examples in the tutorial to work, so I wonder what a minimal example would be (or am I misunderstanding, can it be done?).
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2017-07-05T05:12:37Z PuercoPop: I'm clearly mixing up the stages of evalution here. Can someone explain to me how can I refer to symbol pass to a macro. This is what I'm trying to do http://paste.lisp.org/+7I3V
2017-07-05T05:12:42Z krwq: ots: check out this guy's repo: https://github.com/clarkeaa/jsresume/blob/master/fish.lisp
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2017-07-05T05:13:04Z krwq: ots: generated js: https://github.com/clarkeaa/jsresume/blob/master/fish.js
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2017-07-05T05:13:24Z krwq: ots: here is how he compiles: https://github.com/clarkeaa/jsresume/blob/master/compile.lisp
2017-07-05T05:13:33Z krwq: ots: most complete example i found so far
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2017-07-05T05:14:24Z beach: vtomole: FIND-PACKAGE is not a package function, really.  It is an environment function.
2017-07-05T05:14:45Z beach: vtomole: I suggest you remove DELETE-PACKAGE as well.
2017-07-05T05:15:10Z ots: krwq: woa.
2017-07-05T05:15:27Z krwq: ots: open side by side lisp and js that's self explanatory
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2017-07-05T05:15:40Z ots: that is really something.
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2017-07-05T05:17:17Z ots: krwq: that's even better than I was expecting. you just had that on you? :)  Anyway, TYVM!
2017-07-05T05:17:52Z krwq: ots: i found it few days ago by accident and bookmarked :P
2017-07-05T05:18:02Z vtomole: beach: how i can i tell between environment functions? Compared to here:http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_enviro.htm
2017-07-05T05:18:25Z beach: Yeah, not that. :)
2017-07-05T05:18:36Z beach: They use "environment" differently.
2017-07-05T05:19:21Z beach: vtomole: Hint: find-package does not do anything to any package, so it is not a package function.  But it searches the global environment for a package with a particular name.
2017-07-05T05:19:55Z beach: vtomole: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm
2017-07-05T05:20:12Z beach: vtomole: That page ↑ is where they talk about environments.
2017-07-05T05:20:45Z ots: well, I'd never find that on my own :P Cool
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2017-07-05T05:23:11Z beach: vtomole: In SICL, every Common Lisp function that operates on the implicit global environment (like FIND-PACKAGE) trampolines to a corresponding generic function that take an explicit SICL first-class global environment.  See for example Code/Environment/generic-functions.lisp
2017-07-05T05:23:43Z beach: vtomole: Notice this definition: (defgeneric find-package (name environment))
2017-07-05T05:25:35Z beach: vtomole: I suggest you concentrate on the functions that actually operate on some package.
2017-07-05T05:27:01Z vtomole: How about find-all-symbols?
2017-07-05T05:27:25Z beach: That's a tricky one...
2017-07-05T05:27:53Z beach: Yeah, also an environment function.
2017-07-05T05:28:57Z beach: It just traverses every package in the system and finds the symbol in each package.  So the package function behind all this is the one that, given a package, returns the symbols of that package.
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2017-07-05T05:29:40Z vtomole: So they are not that many package functions then, most lisp functions are just environment ones?
2017-07-05T05:29:50Z beach: I should have said: It just traverses every package IN THE CURRENT GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT...
2017-07-05T05:30:51Z beach: There are in fact a lot of functions in the standard that operate on some environment, and often that environment is implicit, or passed as NIL which means the current global environment.
2017-07-05T05:31:46Z vtomole: I'll look into defpackage first then
2017-07-05T05:31:58Z beach: If you look in the file that I showed you, you will see generic functions with the same name (but in a different package) as many of the standard functions.  The corresponding standard functions are the ones that operate on some environment.
2017-07-05T05:32:40Z beach: OK, lest analyze DEFPACKAGE.  What does it do?
2017-07-05T05:32:52Z beach: It's a macro first of all.
2017-07-05T05:33:29Z beach: clhs defpackage
2017-07-05T05:33:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2017-07-05T05:34:01Z vtomole: Creates a package which is an object
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2017-07-05T05:34:22Z beach: Not really.  It calls make-package to create the package.
2017-07-05T05:34:56Z beach: But it checks whether a package with that name exists.  Where does it do that?
2017-07-05T05:35:16Z beach: In the implicit current global environment.
2017-07-05T05:35:59Z vtomole: Is there a condtion in make-package that checks whether or not that package exists?
2017-07-05T05:36:22Z beach: I don't think so.
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2017-07-05T05:36:29Z beach: clhs make-package
2017-07-05T05:36:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm
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2017-07-05T05:37:02Z beach: Ah, no I was wrong.
2017-07-05T05:37:15Z beach: "A correctable error is signaled if the package-name or any of the nicknames is already the name or nickname of an existing package. "
2017-07-05T05:37:59Z vtomole: So how is defpackage unique from make-package?
2017-07-05T05:38:11Z beach: So, make-package does two things.  It first consults the environment, and if no package exists with that name, it calls a more primitive function to create an instance of the package.
2017-07-05T05:38:38Z beach: vtomole: defpackage is a macro with nicer syntax.
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2017-07-05T05:39:24Z beach: And defpackage also introduces symbols in the package, like shadowed and exported symbols.
2017-07-05T05:40:02Z vtomole: Why a defmacro defpackage and not defun defpackage?
2017-07-05T05:40:19Z beach: Because it is harder to get nice syntax with functions.
2017-07-05T05:41:13Z beach: You can say (defpackage ... (:use ...) (:export ...))
2017-07-05T05:41:21Z beach: That would not have been possible with a function.
2017-07-05T05:41:30Z vtomole: So macros are primarily for making nice syntax?
2017-07-05T05:41:38Z krwq: beach, there is no impossible with lisp
2017-07-05T05:41:52Z beach: krwq: Thanks.  Very insightful.
2017-07-05T05:42:13Z beach: vtomole: Yes, macros introduce new syntax.
2017-07-05T05:42:49Z beach: vtomole: You can think of defining a macro as programming the compiler to recognize new syntax.
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2017-07-05T05:45:45Z vtomole: krwq: How do you mean?
2017-07-05T05:46:08Z beach: vtomole: I suggest you ignore that remark.
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2017-07-05T05:46:28Z krwq: vtomole: you can redefine everything and make it as you like in lisp
2017-07-05T05:47:20Z krwq: vtomole: i wouldn't do that too much before finding what's already in CL
2017-07-05T05:47:56Z flavio81: krwq: +1000, preach on !!
2017-07-05T05:48:44Z krwq: that's the only reason i chose lisp, i don't like parentheses that much
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2017-07-05T05:48:56Z beach: vtomole: It is not possible to redefine the semantics of a function call in Common Lisp.  With a function call, you always evaluate the arguments before applying the function, so in the case of defpackage as a function, the function :USE would be called, but there is no such function.
2017-07-05T05:49:16Z flavio81: vtomole: i guess it is a macro to let you put (:use ...) (:export...) without having to put a quote ' at the beginning of the lists, because the macro won't evaluate the forms directly
2017-07-05T05:49:16Z beach: vtomole: That's why I suggested you ignore that particular remark.
2017-07-05T05:49:22Z krwq: true, once you do that that's not going to be common lisp anymore
2017-07-05T05:49:55Z beach: flavio81: (1 2 . 3) is indeed a list (a dotted list) and it is definitely not a syntax error.
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2017-07-05T05:50:27Z flavio81: beach: wow that's a very old message, however the user was a beginner, so I thought this was very strange on his code
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2017-07-05T05:51:06Z beach: flavio81: With beginners, it is even more important to use the correct terminology.  Otherwise, they will be very confused.
2017-07-05T05:51:15Z vtomole: beach: You can't program the compiler using functions because?
2017-07-05T05:51:31Z flavio81: beach: you are right. Sorry.
2017-07-05T05:51:44Z krwq: beach: i disagree, i find it easier to use common sense terminology and switch slowly to proper names
2017-07-05T05:52:04Z beach: vtomole: The way function calls work is fixed by the Common Lisp standard.  The arguments are always evaluated first before the function is applied.
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2017-07-05T05:52:14Z beach: krwq: Good for you.
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2017-07-05T05:52:39Z flavio81: vtomole: while with macros, you can have the arguments without first evaluating them. You can evaluate them later if you want. So they are more flexibles
2017-07-05T05:52:40Z krwq: lisp is as personal language as it can be
2017-07-05T05:52:42Z flavio81: *flexible
2017-07-05T05:53:57Z flavio81: vtomole: basically what a macro does is to spit out lisp code that *afterwards* is evaluated. So there is this intermediate step where you produce source code on-the-fly based on your argumemts. Thus, macros are source code that produces source code. Thus, even more powerful than functions.
2017-07-05T05:55:00Z krwq: vtomole: with macro instead of arguments you get exactly what user typed and can choose how it is going to be evaluated
2017-07-05T05:55:19Z krwq: ok not exactly
2017-07-05T05:55:27Z krwq: (reader macros)
2017-07-05T05:56:10Z krwq: you can introduce your own syntax in such way that it is hard to make errors when you write code
2017-07-05T05:56:19Z krwq: and you never have to write boilerplate code
2017-07-05T05:56:30Z krwq: if you see something repeating and annoying you can write a macro
2017-07-05T05:56:51Z vtomole: So functions can't spit lisp code:(defun square (x) 	   `(* ,x ,x))
2017-07-05T05:56:54Z vtomole: ?
2017-07-05T05:57:17Z krwq: vtomole they can
2017-07-05T05:57:29Z krwq: but you call it data
2017-07-05T05:57:51Z vtomole: Then how do i know when to use macros and when to not?
2017-07-05T05:57:53Z krwq: in lisp border between code and data is thin and almost non existent
2017-07-05T05:58:15Z krwq: you want to process something - use functions
2017-07-05T05:58:17Z beach: vtomole: You only define a macro when you need to violate the evaluation rule of functions.
2017-07-05T05:58:22Z krwq: you want to introduce new syntax use macro
2017-07-05T05:58:59Z krwq: macro is also a function but operates at different time
2017-07-05T05:58:59Z beach: vtomole: Macros are way less frequent than functions in typical code.
2017-07-05T05:59:45Z krwq: write only functions in the beginning and when you notice that you keep repeating yourself try macros
2017-07-05T06:00:54Z vtomole: Ok let me see if i've go this: The difference between functions and macros are that macros don't evaluate their arguments. This is used extend the compiler because macros are evaluated at a different time than functions
2017-07-05T06:00:54Z ecraven: vtomole: that ^
2017-07-05T06:01:09Z flavio81: YESSS
2017-07-05T06:01:10Z vtomole: beach: So is the macro system implemented?
2017-07-05T06:01:14Z vtomole: Using macros?
2017-07-05T06:01:27Z flavio81: interesting question !
2017-07-05T06:01:41Z krwq: vtomole: implementation specific probably, likely yes
2017-07-05T06:01:50Z beach: vtomole: Your description of the difference is correct.
2017-07-05T06:02:41Z beach: vtomole: The "macro system" is implemented by the compiler.  When the compiler sees a compound form where the CAR is defined as a macro, it first expands the form and then processes it again.
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2017-07-05T06:03:14Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2017-07-05T06:03:15Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2017-07-05T06:03:29Z beach: vtomole: ↑
2017-07-05T06:03:58Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.2
2017-07-05T06:03:58Z specbot: Macro Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababb.htm
2017-07-05T06:04:03Z krwq: spec is really complete but quite not readable for beginners IMO
2017-07-05T06:04:31Z krwq: i still have hard time reading it (still beginner though)
2017-07-05T06:04:49Z vtomole: A macro is a mini-lisp compiler that compiles lisp to lisp before evaluating the compiled lisp.
2017-07-05T06:04:59Z vtomole: Is that the right thinking?
2017-07-05T06:05:04Z beach: krwq: Very true.  But vtomole wants to help me write SICL, which is an implementation of Common Lisp, so he needs to get used to reading it.
2017-07-05T06:05:19Z beach: vtomole: Sounds about right.
2017-07-05T06:05:23Z krwq: that's fair point in this case
2017-07-05T06:05:58Z ecraven: vtomole: "Let over Lambda" deals with macros a lot, might be interesting
2017-07-05T06:06:14Z ecraven: though people disagree about whether you should go that far ;)
2017-07-05T06:06:30Z krwq: whatever makes you happy
2017-07-05T06:08:15Z vtomole: ecraven: I started reading it, it but i couldn't undertand the chapter on closures so i stopped.
2017-07-05T06:08:57Z krwq: vtomole: lisp is tough and simple at the same time
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2017-07-05T06:09:56Z ecraven: vtomole: ah, but you will need to understand closures ;)
2017-07-05T06:10:23Z vtomole: ecarven: beach explained them to mee two days ago, i'm still processing
2017-07-05T06:10:39Z vtomole: I've also been reading Paul Graham's On Lisp
2017-07-05T06:10:42Z krwq: learn with examples and start using it
2017-07-05T06:10:42Z flavio81: vtomole: closures are a simple concept, though
2017-07-05T06:10:43Z ecraven: vtomole: yea, take your time, there's a lot to process ;)
2017-07-05T06:10:44Z vtomole: and he talks about closures
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2017-07-05T06:11:23Z vtomole: flavio81: I understand the definition. Just the part about variables and environments...
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2017-07-05T06:12:03Z krwq: vtomole: don't learn for sake of learning, read, start using, read again, you will eventually understand
2017-07-05T06:13:33Z vtomole: flavio81: That's probably the reason too haha. The concepts are easy but they are super subtle.
2017-07-05T06:13:58Z vtomole: krwq:Thanks
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2017-07-05T06:16:15Z flavio81: vtomole: you mean lexical environment vs dynamic environment  ?
2017-07-05T06:17:26Z vtomole: dynamic
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2017-07-05T06:19:00Z krwq: vtomole: you should read about it
2017-07-05T06:19:26Z vtomole: krwq: About environments?
2017-07-05T06:24:27Z flavio81: vtomole: i can explain you the difference in a quick and dirty way. When you create a lexical variable using let (and some other ways as well...), this variable resides in the lexical environment that is enclosed within the let body (let (bindings) body)
2017-07-05T06:25:26Z vtomole: So each function has a lexical environment.
2017-07-05T06:25:31Z vtomole: But where is it?
2017-07-05T06:25:34Z vtomole: On the stack?
2017-07-05T06:25:47Z loke`: vtomole: Each form has a lexical environment.
2017-07-05T06:25:59Z flavio81: vtomole: so those variables are going to exist within those two parenthesis (the body), not outside. However, when you create a closure, like for example: (let ((x 0)) lambda (y) (...)), the "x" doesn't 'dissapear' after this code has passed away. The "X" will persist because it lives in its own environment
2017-07-05T06:26:01Z loke`: vtomole: The lexical environment is gone after the the function has been compiled.
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2017-07-05T06:26:50Z vtomole: loke': Compiled? Not evaluated?
2017-07-05T06:27:25Z flavio81: vtomole: the other environment is th dynamic environment. You create variables in the dynamic environment with defvar and defparameter (among others). You can consider them as if they were "global" variables (although this is not 100% correct). This "dynamic environment" permeates all the functions within your package
2017-07-05T06:28:00Z beach: loke`: WHAT?
2017-07-05T06:28:08Z vtomole: flavio81: When would i use a closure?
2017-07-05T06:28:42Z beach: loke`: (let ((x 10)) (defun ff (y (+ x y))))
2017-07-05T06:29:24Z flavio81: vtomole: so if i have (defvar *y* 100) and then (defun function (x) (let ((z 1)) (setf *y* (+ z x)))), the  *y* exists in the dynamic environment, and the z is on the lexical environment.
2017-07-05T06:30:03Z beach: vtomole: Here is a typical use for a closure: (defun gg (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x))))
2017-07-05T06:31:12Z beach: erc, (defun gg (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x)) list))
2017-07-05T06:31:26Z beach: ... forgot the list argument.
2017-07-05T06:31:28Z beach: Sorry.
2017-07-05T06:31:56Z krwq: vtomole, try this out: (let ((counter 0)) (defun next () (incf counter)))
2017-07-05T06:31:57Z flavio81: vtomole: closures nontwithstanding, here comes the fun stuff: the lexical environment can "shadow" the dynamic environment. For example i can have a parameter called *name* set to "flavio": (defparameter *name* "Flavio"). And suppose i have a function: (defun hello () (princ *name*)), of course this function calls the *name* on the dynamic environment. However, if i do this. (let ((*name* "VTOMOLE")) (hello)), the ĥellp function will print "VTOMOLE".
2017-07-05T06:32:28Z loke`: flavio81: The lexical environment is not what's doing the shadowing though
2017-07-05T06:32:47Z flavio81: loke: please explain, i am not a master at this.
2017-07-05T06:33:04Z beach: flavio81: I am afraid you are confusing the hell out of vtomole.
2017-07-05T06:33:08Z loke`: *flavio* will still be special, and using LET to bind a special variable is more like doing a SETQ and then restroing the value in an unwind-protect form
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2017-07-05T06:33:57Z flavio81: oooops
2017-07-05T06:34:05Z flavio81: i guess one learns something new each day
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2017-07-05T06:34:45Z flavio81: thanks loke
2017-07-05T06:34:59Z vtomole: krwq: So anytime i call (next), counter is incremented, instead of just returning 1 everytime because the counter is set to 0 in the let?
2017-07-05T06:35:03Z flavio81: this was very interesting, really
2017-07-05T06:35:11Z Devon: Ignore that confused remark about "shadow"
2017-07-05T06:35:41Z flavio81: beach: yes. sorryl
2017-07-05T06:36:47Z krwq: vtomole: I probably will use wrong words to describe this, i have more intuitive understanding of things than verbal
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2017-07-05T06:37:13Z krwq: beach is better with words
2017-07-05T06:38:17Z krwq: i can give you samples which helped me understand, not necessarily explain
2017-07-05T06:39:07Z beach: krwq: I think vtomole has an overload of (contradictory, incorrect, badly explained) information at this point.
2017-07-05T06:39:17Z Devon: To de-confuse the "shadow" remark a little, try (defun hello () (declare (special *name*)) (princ *name*)), (let ((*name* "VTOMOLE")) (declare (special *name*)) (hello))
2017-07-05T06:40:10Z krwq: vtomole: best would be to try things out for a while, just experiment
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2017-07-05T06:41:50Z krwq: many languages you can understand mostly really quickly, lisp is tough and will mess with you
2017-07-05T06:42:53Z beach: krwq: I don't believe that for a second.  People think they understand a language like C quite easily, but then they don't take into account the huge number of undefined situations.
2017-07-05T06:44:05Z beach: krwq: Try to understand the concept of "sequence point" in C and why it exists, for example.
2017-07-05T06:44:27Z krwq: beach: with C you can figure out many things on your own and there is very limited amount of things you have to figure out, with lisp you can define anything and change anything which means you can't have assumptions about what the thing is doing
2017-07-05T06:45:08Z beach: The problem is that the things you "figure out" often represent undefined behavior.
2017-07-05T06:45:09Z flavio81: beach: i guess today is the day of "robert, you need extra patience and/or headache pills" ...
2017-07-05T06:45:25Z beach: Me?  Just an ordinary day in #lisp.
2017-07-05T06:45:30Z flavio81: hahahahaaha
2017-07-05T06:46:15Z beach: In a few hours, I shall have my favorite co-author over for lunch, and then we will spend the afternoon working on some paper or book.  It will be a great day.
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2017-07-05T06:48:24Z flavio81: beach: nice! btw if you can, please complete this page http://metamodular.com/Music/music.html ... i was curious and clicked there
2017-07-05T06:48:58Z beach: Not high priority, but I'll think about it.  Thanks for pointing it out.
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2017-07-05T06:50:55Z flavio81: allright. So, beach, the explanaton made by loke` about how LET binds a special variable is accurate?
2017-07-05T06:51:28Z beach: Yes, loke` is very knowledgeable.
2017-07-05T06:52:18Z krwq: so let with special variables is not thread safe?
2017-07-05T06:53:06Z beach: krwq: Threads are not part of the standard, but the typical implementation makes bindings other than the global one per-thread.
2017-07-05T06:53:46Z beach: ... makes bindings other than the global binding specific to the current thread.
2017-07-05T06:54:45Z krwq: we should update the standard
2017-07-05T06:55:05Z beach: krwq: You are only the thousandth or so person suggesting that.
2017-07-05T06:55:10Z vtomole: krwq: No.
2017-07-05T06:55:14Z beach: krwq: It won't happen and it is not necessary.
2017-07-05T06:55:17Z vtomole: That will make it harder for me to learn
2017-07-05T06:55:19Z flavio81: beach: so if i use let to bind to a special variable ( a special variable that was defined before the let), the binding will be specific to that thread then  ?
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2017-07-05T06:55:44Z beach: krwq: Most people use languages that don't even *have* a standard, and they get along just fine.
2017-07-05T06:55:55Z beach: flavio81: Yes.
2017-07-05T06:56:00Z krwq: most of the languages have one implementation
2017-07-05T06:56:02Z flavio81: nice nice nice
2017-07-05T06:56:25Z flavio81: beach: thanks. I have not tried threading in lisp but will in the future, this is important to know.
2017-07-05T06:56:57Z beach: krwq: That's even worse.  Because then things can change at random points in time, breaking existing code.  It happened with Java, Python, etc.
2017-07-05T06:58:01Z krwq: pretty much everyone is using alexandria and quicklisp - why not standardize them?
2017-07-05T06:58:02Z beach: When I give talks in industry, I usually say something like "a project leader that chooses a language without a standard, published by an independent standardization organization, should be fired"
2017-07-05T06:58:10Z flavio81: beach: additional question. If inside a function (which runs in a thread), i make a reference, say, a setf to a special form (defined at top-level), i guess i potentially run into concurrency issues and need to use some kind of lock or software-transactional-memory or whatever? Or each thread will also receive a copy of the dynamic environment?
2017-07-05T06:58:31Z beach: krwq: Because it is not necessary, and nobody is willing to pay the huge amount of money it would take to update the standard.
2017-07-05T06:59:00Z krwq: i don't believe in one rightful centralized places for anything
2017-07-05T06:59:12Z beach: krwq: Sorry to hear that.
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2017-07-05T07:00:28Z krwq: those places are nice but they should not have authority - power is what corrupts people and what makes us stay in one place
2017-07-05T07:01:56Z beach: flavio81: If you SETF the global binding, then it is shared with other threads.  Depending on how the implementation deals with bindings of special variables, it may or may not require synchronization.  Hopefully, your implementation will have taken care of that for you.
2017-07-05T07:02:50Z beach: flavio81: There will not be a per-thread copy of the global binding.
2017-07-05T07:02:55Z krwq: schrodinger synchronization
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2017-07-05T07:05:42Z flavio81: beach: thanks
2017-07-05T07:05:49Z beach: Sure.
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2017-07-05T14:03:34Z mrottenkolber: By chance anyone around who knows their way around CCL’s defx86lapfunction?
2017-07-05T14:04:27Z mrottenkolber: Specifically I am unsure about the semantics of (@ …) and (% …)
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2017-07-05T14:39:57Z mrottenkolber: Think I figured it out, % is for accessing register arguments, @ is for dereferencing, optionally with an index
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2017-07-05T16:31:12Z kencausey: find-package is failing for me with a string but works with a symbol. CLHS seems to say that both should work.
2017-07-05T16:31:18Z Bike: failing how?
2017-07-05T16:31:24Z kencausey: returning nil
2017-07-05T16:31:31Z Bike: what string are you using?
2017-07-05T16:31:46Z kencausey: say "ql-sbcl" for example
2017-07-05T16:31:47Z beach: kencausey: Probably a character-case isue.
2017-07-05T16:31:50Z kencausey: 'ql-sbcl works
2017-07-05T16:31:52Z beach: issue, even
2017-07-05T16:32:01Z Bike: try "QL-SBCL"
2017-07-05T16:32:02Z kencausey: Ah, I need caps? just a sec
2017-07-05T16:32:14Z Bike: also try (package-name (find-package 'ql-sbcl)) to see why
2017-07-05T16:32:21Z kencausey: yep, that was my mistake, thanks.
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2017-07-05T16:37:46Z beach: Maybe we should have a fund to which people can contribute if they save huge amounts of time by getting quick answers like that.
2017-07-05T16:40:05Z epipping: beach: unless quick answers keep beginners from doing research on their own. which they probably do
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2017-07-05T16:41:30Z beach: epipping: Possibly, yes.  But kencausey has been coming here since November 2004, so I don't think he counts as a beginner.
2017-07-05T16:42:35Z beach: He hasn't been here for a few years, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, assuming he has been busy programming all these years.
2017-07-05T16:49:41Z scymtym: ,./';.
2017-07-05T16:50:35Z scymtym: sorry, child on keyboard
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2017-07-05T17:01:49Z epipping: beach: oh, I wasn't calling kencausey a beginner (I don't know him/her and I did not read his/her question); maybe I misunderstood your intention -- I thought you were referring to quick answers more generally
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2017-07-05T17:03:57Z epipping: beach: never mind me; I'll just go back to lurking. it's too easy to make a fool out of oneself by speaking up.
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2017-07-05T17:27:46Z jackdaniel: To Avoid Criticism, Say Nothing, Do Nothing, Be Nothing
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2017-07-05T17:35:29Z edgar-rft: yes, and your functions should always return (values)
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2017-07-05T17:48:16Z beach: epipping: Don't worry about it.  I was just showing off my skills in searching the logs.
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2017-07-05T17:53:16Z shka_: hey
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2017-07-05T17:53:49Z shka_: beach: excuse me, do you happen to know when docstrings where invented?
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2017-07-05T17:54:25Z beach: shka_: I don't.  Sorry.
2017-07-05T17:54:40Z shka_: ok, thanks
2017-07-05T17:54:43Z beach: I could research it for you, but now is time to go be with my (admittedly small) family.
2017-07-05T17:54:49Z shka_: no need
2017-07-05T17:55:49Z shka_: i'm just wondering when people figured out that there is enough memory to store info about program in the program
2017-07-05T17:56:55Z Xach: Philip Greenspun liked docstrings so much he added macros in his tcl stuff to save them.
2017-07-05T17:57:09Z shka_: cool :-)
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2017-07-05T17:58:52Z Xach: proc_doc
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2017-07-05T18:00:23Z foom: You don't even need a proc variant for that...
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2017-07-05T18:00:40Z foom: "info body name" will return the proc's body. including comments
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2017-07-05T18:02:04Z foom: like, if you type "proc foo {} {\n#Hello\n}", then "info body foo" returns the string "\n#Hello\n"
2017-07-05T18:02:44Z Xach: foom: has it been ever thus?
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2017-07-05T18:05:43Z foom: Xach: I don't know about "ever", but a long time for sure.
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2017-07-05T18:58:01Z BW^-: beach,p_l,*: following up on a garbage collection conversation from recently - there's this talk in the literature that refcounting is "soo expensive". i don't really see that. refc. requires a "write barrier" that will count the new object and uncount the old object, and propagate any deallocations(and that can be made via a queue)... i don't see what's so CPU-expensive about that!?
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2017-07-05T18:58:47Z BW^-: maybe 1985 the CPU work for such a write barrier would be "expensive". i don't really see what would be any notable about it.
2017-07-05T19:00:11Z p_l: BW^-: it used to be *less* expensive
2017-07-05T19:02:23Z White_Flame: from what I've read, people point to it having a negative effect on cache and memory bandwidth, which is one of the primary bottlenecks today
2017-07-05T19:03:07Z p_l: yes
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2017-07-05T19:03:34Z White_Flame: refcounting turns read-only passing around of data into a write-heavy deluge of incs and decs
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2017-07-05T19:04:01Z p_l: also, allocations of new objects are much more complex in refcount case compared to copying collectors
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2017-07-05T19:05:13Z White_Flame: so it's actually a read barrier, not a write barrier
2017-07-05T19:05:48Z p_l: in terms of taxonomy, refcount would be low memory use, low throughput, v.short pause of usually constant time coupled to dealloc
2017-07-05T19:05:50Z White_Flame: but even more so, the barrier does work regardless of reading; it's a reference barrier (which gets tautological ;) )
2017-07-05T19:06:42Z White_Flame: most GC read barriers don't actually write data for their common case; they just dereference pointers and check to see if things moved out from under them
2017-07-05T19:06:59Z BW^-: white_flame,p_l: so you mean that GC is cheaper?
2017-07-05T19:07:07Z White_Flame: the refcounting "read" barrier happens more often than tracing GC barriers, and performs writes
2017-07-05T19:07:18Z White_Flame: that's the modern concensus
2017-07-05T19:07:34Z p_l: BW^-: it all depends on tradeoffs you are willing to make
2017-07-05T19:07:41Z White_Flame: moving GC will not be cheaper in RAM, but mark/sweep doesn't have additional ram overhead
2017-07-05T19:08:10Z p_l: there are practically pauseless copying collectors like Azul's
2017-07-05T19:08:13Z White_Flame: but generally, blind refcounting will be more expensive in run time for common workloads than blind scanning GC
2017-07-05T19:08:22Z White_Flame: *blind use of
2017-07-05T19:09:00Z White_Flame: Azul's uses both read & write barriers, though
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2017-07-05T19:09:13Z White_Flame: so the total overhead is a bit larger, while the pauses go away
2017-07-05T19:09:33Z White_Flame: for 100+GB heaps, you can't really pause, so you give up some runtime performance to keep everything running smoother
2017-07-05T19:09:46Z White_Flame: however, still probably faster than refcounting
2017-07-05T19:10:13Z White_Flame: the azul total overhead compared to traditional stop the world is apparently small
2017-07-05T19:11:23Z p_l: White_Flame: they also do most of it in-parallel thanks to supervisor-level access to paging hw
2017-07-05T19:11:27Z White_Flame: (and of course in azul hardware, they implement the barriers in silicon so that overhead goes away)
2017-07-05T19:11:45Z White_Flame: (if they still make custom cpus)
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2017-07-05T19:12:43Z BW^-: white_flame: what do you mean by "moving GC"?
2017-07-05T19:12:54Z p_l: they don't, they figured how to do it same speed with EPT/RVI on amd64
2017-07-05T19:12:58Z White_Flame: GC that moves objects from 1 heap space to another heap space, and deallocates the old
2017-07-05T19:13:07Z p_l: BW^-: GC that moves data around
2017-07-05T19:13:15Z BW^-: p_l: Azul requires kernel patches and is patented, but yeah there's Brooks/Shenandoah
2017-07-05T19:13:22Z BW^-: white_flame: ^
2017-07-05T19:13:46Z p_l: the classic original one was two space design using tape for newspace whike copying
2017-07-05T19:13:52Z White_Flame: right, but Azul is pretty much considered the state of the art, regardless of actual access to use of it ;)
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2017-07-05T19:14:24Z p_l: BW^-: AFAIK Azul's isn't patented, just cumbersome to implement by competition due to lack of necessary APIs in systems
2017-07-05T19:14:37Z p_l: APIs that SBCL would also benefit from
2017-07-05T19:14:59Z BW^-: ..what?
2017-07-05T19:15:10Z BW^-: p_l: can you please confirm that Azul not is patented?? what's actually patented then??
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2017-07-05T19:15:17Z BW^-: i decidedly got that impression.
2017-07-05T19:15:20Z p_l: AFAIK one bit (streamed page faults) exists already and there's a patch that improves SBCL's GC with it
2017-07-05T19:15:40Z p_l: BW^-: well, technically, to patent it anywhere they need to marry it with hw
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2017-07-05T19:15:42Z BW^-: humm?
2017-07-05T19:15:59Z BW^-: p_l: practically - really? but Amazon patented "one-click" buying??
2017-07-05T19:16:10Z BW^-: p_l: URL to SBCL streamed page faults?
2017-07-05T19:16:23Z p_l: reading the patent
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2017-07-05T19:18:04Z White_Flame: and in theory the "computer system running this software" patents are having some of their legal basis starting to crumble
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2017-07-05T19:18:17Z White_Flame: (in the .us)
2017-07-05T19:18:21Z p_l: “Generational Garbage Collection, Write Barriers/Write Protection and userfaultfd(2)” (“Generational Garbage Collection, Write Barriers/Write Protection and userfaultfd(2)” @MartinCracauer https://medium.com/@MartinCracauer/generational-garbage-collection-write-barriers-write-protection-and-userfaultfd-2-8b0e796b8f7f)
2017-07-05T19:18:48Z p_l: White_Flame: and have little base elsewhere
2017-07-05T19:18:57Z White_Flame: yep
2017-07-05T19:19:39Z BW^-: white_flame: how?
2017-07-05T19:20:20Z White_Flame: there was some recent ruling (not sure if court case or patent application rejection) that running on generic computing hardware didn't make it a patentable machine'
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2017-07-05T19:21:19Z flavio81: hi you all. good news White_Flame, if the unfair parts of the software patent system are starting to crumble
2017-07-05T19:25:15Z BW^-: p_l: interesting link!
2017-07-05T19:25:36Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: so Linux and also the BSD:s may get an OS callback for the memory event that Azul requires, awesome!!
2017-07-05T19:25:49Z p_l: BW^-: well, will see how much
2017-07-05T19:25:59Z p_l: Azul has a paper on pretty much everything necessary to implement it
2017-07-05T19:26:02Z BW^-: that has been the reason why you would not have wanted to run Azul on a mainstream app - that everyone would need to install kernel patches :o
2017-07-05T19:26:07Z BW^-: which they would never do obviously.
2017-07-05T19:26:29Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: now what about the patenting constraints, can you make a CPU page event optimization based GC without running into patent issues?
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2017-07-05T19:26:38Z p_l: BW^-: truth is that "mainstream" is quite happy to run on customized if it can get support contract
2017-07-05T19:27:48Z BW^-: ah yeah sure, but for instance, the Azul code I saw was only for some obscure.. Redhat verison I think
2017-07-05T19:27:54Z BW^-: so "mainstream" enterprises sure
2017-07-05T19:28:01Z BW^-: but mainstream scripting kids and grandmothers, no
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2017-07-05T19:30:22Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: re considering refcounting expensive, I'd actually guess that it's not only the fact that writing a reference costs both a read and a write (and + one more round for othe other reference) - but also, you need to use pretty expensive, atomic, versions of CPU memory access primitives to get atomicity no??
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2017-07-05T19:30:49Z BW^-: so like, with the normal atomicity, just writing a reference within a GC (e.g. "MOV someaddress,newobjectref") is atomic in itself, and also the operation is cheap
2017-07-05T19:30:50Z p_l: BW^-: yep
2017-07-05T19:31:00Z BW^-: those like "ATOMIC_INC memoryaddress" would be like 100x more expensive
2017-07-05T19:31:10Z p_l: and even that MOV is not necessarily atomic depending on CPU
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2017-07-05T19:31:17Z BW^-: actually "ATOMIC_INC some; ATOMIC_DEC someother; CMP_IF_Z some"
2017-07-05T19:31:20Z BW^-: very interesting.
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2017-07-05T19:31:31Z BW^-: p_l: aligned MOV is generally atomic??
2017-07-05T19:31:37Z BW^-: a native word size MOV.
2017-07-05T19:31:41Z p_l: BW^-: nope
2017-07-05T19:31:53Z BW^-: p_l: where not?? AMD, ARM, SPARC are atomic I think at least.
2017-07-05T19:31:59Z BW^-: MIPS i'd wildly guess too.
2017-07-05T19:31:59Z p_l: on x86, it's LOCK MOV
2017-07-05T19:32:07Z BW^-: emm, noo?
2017-07-05T19:32:18Z BW^-: x86 has "strict memory ordering" or how you call it
2017-07-05T19:32:28Z p_l: BW^-: it's atomic in the sense of cpu instruction ordering
2017-07-05T19:32:33Z BW^-: accesses are always atomic as long as they don't span more 4096 byte pages on x86??
2017-07-05T19:32:44Z p_l: without exhibiting... certain funnier behaviours
2017-07-05T19:33:00Z BW^-: p_l: atomic in the sense that writing the 64bit word on a 64bit machine won't leave you with 24bit of the new verions and 40 bits of the old or some other..?
2017-07-05T19:33:37Z p_l: BW^-: in this sense, yes. But not in the "it actually hit the memory" which makes things go wonky if you have concurrency even on single core
2017-07-05T19:34:06Z p_l: and then there are things like Alpha, which at least in theory still decides memory model of linux kernel
2017-07-05T19:34:14Z BW^-: p_l: well, it might take some time to hit memory, right.. so you should do MSYNC/barrier if you want your write to become readable to others fast
2017-07-05T19:34:14Z BW^-: BUT
2017-07-05T19:34:20Z BW^-: still in *either case* it's "atomic"
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2017-07-05T19:34:53Z p_l: BW^-: from single-program view, yes
2017-07-05T19:35:16Z White_Flame: I'm pretty sure that in the last 2 or 3 gens of intel CPUs, they did change the caching model to preserve word-sized writes
2017-07-05T19:35:16Z p_l: better would be "synchronized"
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2017-07-05T19:35:47Z BW^-: p_l: also between programs, for the usecase of inter-process shared memory??
2017-07-05T19:35:59Z BW^-: white_flame: Intel has had "strict memory ordering" all the time?
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2017-07-05T19:36:23Z White_Flame: there's a difference between what the CPU cores issue, and how caches combine their writes together
2017-07-05T19:36:23Z BW^-: btw
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2017-07-05T19:36:35Z BW^-: what's different between what the medium.com article suggests, and Azul?
2017-07-05T19:36:50Z p_l: BW^-: Azul has also special acquire semantics
2017-07-05T19:36:51Z BW^-: white_flame: ..leading to? meaning?
2017-07-05T19:36:57Z BW^-: p_l: what's that?
2017-07-05T19:37:26Z p_l: BW^-: when you take a reference to an object, there's some special code involved (don't recall details)
2017-07-05T19:37:38Z White_Flame: the CPU writes into cache.  The cache system figures out coherencies between cores and how to write to memory.  They're 2 completely different systems
2017-07-05T19:37:43Z p_l: but essentially it allows them to do equivalent of Lisp Machine's forwarding pointers on amd64
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2017-07-05T19:38:22Z p_l: so they can concurrently copy
2017-07-05T19:39:01Z White_Flame: BW^-:  the CPU write ordering issues are regarding out-of-order processing, and ensuring that overwrites from the same CPU thread hit the cache system in order
2017-07-05T19:39:49Z BW^-: white_flame: noo!? -- on amd64, a single word MOV will always appear to another CPU core, as happening atomically, presuming it was made within the same 4096 byte page.
2017-07-05T19:39:51Z BW^-: i promise.
2017-07-05T19:40:34Z BW^-: p_l: it's a memory system events based implementation of forwarding of brooks forwarding pointers, right.
2017-07-05T19:40:51Z p_l: BW^-: can you get reference from instruction manual? would be useful (I'm no good at navigating those huge books)
2017-07-05T19:40:52Z BW^-: p_l: where, if you hit the old page, instead of checking "is the forwarding pointer set or not", a memory trap trigs which will do the update automatically.
2017-07-05T19:40:54Z White_Flame: BW^-: that's a separate issue...
2017-07-05T19:41:26Z p_l: BW^-: they also benefit from making the page fault very fast
2017-07-05T19:41:27Z White_Flame: there are a ton of separate subsystems and separate ordering problems; they're not all just 1 feature
2017-07-05T19:41:27Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: i think Ulrich Drepper's memory caching book, available online, covers it
2017-07-05T19:41:38Z BW^-: white_flame: what's a separet issue?
2017-07-05T19:41:46Z BW^-: white_flame: where can I read about that?
2017-07-05T19:41:49Z White_Flame: CPU memory write ordering vs cache coherency
2017-07-05T19:42:46Z BW^-: white_flame: but those have been made to be perfectly symmetrical on AMD64 no??
2017-07-05T19:43:19Z White_Flame: there were changes a few years back that really cleaned up the model from a programmer's perspective
2017-07-05T19:43:30Z White_Flame: somewhere around skylake or right before
2017-07-05T19:44:02Z White_Flame: and they also added some transactional memory extensions
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2017-07-05T19:45:05Z White_Flame: but certainly before then, there were increasing edge cases going back through recent years that could cause real issues with multithreaded shared mutating memory
2017-07-05T19:45:15Z BW^-: white_flame: (except for the transactional memory extensions;) oh, wow. where can i read about it? i was not aware.
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2017-07-05T19:45:27Z BW^-: never heard!
2017-07-05T19:45:30Z White_Flame: idunno, it was in tech news as it was happening.  google is your friend
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2017-07-05T19:46:03Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: here you go https://people.freebsd.org/~lstewart/articles/cpumemory.pdf  , that's the only authoritative doc i've seen on the subject before!
2017-07-05T19:46:26Z White_Flame: and of course that's 10 years out of date now
2017-07-05T19:47:01Z White_Flame: flipping through the first few pages, do motherboards even have northbridges anymore?
2017-07-05T19:48:07Z BW^-: no idea
2017-07-05T19:48:42Z p_l: White_Flame: nope
2017-07-05T19:50:50Z BW^-: white_flame,p_l: interesting that anything got better in memory atomicity. i thought it was all good already.
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2017-07-05T19:59:25Z BW^-: white_flame,p_l: when working crossplatform, e.g. ARM, ARM64, sparc, mips, sgi,  what kind of atomicity can you expect then??
2017-07-05T19:59:28Z BW^-: i guess aligned words
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2017-07-05T20:08:40Z p_l: BW^-: Generally, if it didn't change much, I'd use Documentation/memory-barriers.txt from linux kernel source as guide
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2017-07-05T20:25:10Z BW^-: p_l: wait, for which?
2017-07-05T20:26:11Z p_l: BW^-: regarding memory model for cross-platform code
2017-07-05T20:26:32Z p_l: BW^-: they have a very sensible argument of "write code like everything is an Alpha that uses every bit of leverage"
2017-07-05T20:27:38Z p_l: the only thing that Alpha guaranteed was that dependency of register ops and related load/stores is safe
2017-07-05T20:28:01Z p_l: safe within one instruction stream and within local view of the core, not with regards to memory
2017-07-05T20:30:51Z p_l: to the point that instruction pointer is useless to figure out point of error/exception/etc.
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2017-07-05T20:41:22Z BW^-: p_l: dear, oh, didn't know!
2017-07-05T20:41:32Z BW^-: p_l: so the Alpha architecture has had the very worst atomicity around??
2017-07-05T20:41:41Z p_l: BW^-: no, the most *explicit*
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2017-07-05T20:46:09Z p_l: essentially, if the memory access was to even go past cache in any form that should be coherent to other hw, it had to be apropriately fenced
2017-07-05T20:46:57Z BW^-: ah, declared, pointed out, ok.
2017-07-05T20:48:11Z p_l: also ISA was totally out-of-order
2017-07-05T20:48:17Z p_l: (even if early cpus were mostly in-order)
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2017-07-05T21:05:47Z drmeister: When multithreading in ECL does anyone know if there is a per-thread generic function cache?
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2017-07-05T21:06:41Z drmeister: I assumed there was and implemented it like that in Clasp - but I just ran into a problem when recompiling methods - other threads (other than the one doing the compilation) don't get their generic function caches cleared.
2017-07-05T21:07:05Z p_l: drmeister: I don't think so...
2017-07-05T21:07:12Z drmeister: I pinged jackdaniel in #clasp with the same question.
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2017-07-05T21:18:21Z p_l: huh, OpenJDK's Shenandoah explicitly points out to 1984 symposium on lisp and functional programming
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2017-07-05T21:26:20Z BW^-: p_l: yes, of course, that's where it was invented??
2017-07-05T21:26:37Z p_l: BW^-: still, sometimes one gets surprised by this
2017-07-05T21:27:50Z BW^-: p_l: yea sure.
2017-07-05T21:27:58Z BW^-: p_l: all the GC literature is just totally pumped with lisp refs lol.
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2017-07-05T21:28:12Z p_l: worse is when you can't get the original paper
2017-07-05T21:28:14Z BW^-: like, paper reference [1] is McCarthy 1960 in all of them haha
2017-07-05T21:28:22Z BW^-: p_l: www.booksc.org is pretty goo!
2017-07-05T21:28:23Z BW^-: d
2017-07-05T21:28:27Z BW^-: 85%+ hit rate.
2017-07-05T21:28:30Z p_l: I might finally break and get ACM library subscription
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2017-07-05T21:29:42Z BW^-: lol.
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2017-07-05T21:31:12Z p_l: it's nice that current $DAYJOB gives us Safari Books, but ACM and IEEE subscriptions would be nice too
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2017-07-05T23:16:24Z dim: is there a simple way to access current function's name at runtime? is it a good idea to try and do so?
2017-07-05T23:17:44Z dim: quick reading, quick answer: ok I don't really want to do that
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2017-07-05T23:23:36Z Bike: the standard way is function-lambda-expression, but it's just for debug information and is allowed to fail
2017-07-05T23:24:15Z dim: my use case is to have SQL queries apart in .sql files, and to load them in memory at load time thanks to defparameter
2017-07-05T23:24:47Z dim: now in the function using the queries I wanted to be lazy and do an automatic lookup of the query filename from the current function's name
2017-07-05T23:25:05Z dim: but well. I don't really need that, and it would prevent multiple queries being used in the same function anyway
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2017-07-05T23:27:52Z dim: I had a pseudo-fs implementation as an hash-table for all-included web-app, I'm going to see about using that
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2017-07-05T23:33:04Z marvin2: clhs append does not mention mutation, but iirc, it is allowed to mutate first argument for performance reasons? is that correct?
2017-07-05T23:33:45Z dim: alexandria:apendf handles mutation ala setf, pretty useful
2017-07-05T23:34:59Z marvin2: i actually want to avoid mutation, but I'm not entirely sure if clhs mentions it when it happens, or when it is guaranteed that it doesn't happen
2017-07-05T23:35:00Z sukaeto: marvin2: no, append does not modify its arguments
2017-07-05T23:35:03Z sukaeto: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2017-07-05T23:35:03Z axion: it does mention structure is retained for input lists.
2017-07-05T23:35:11Z axion: "lists are left unchanged"
2017-07-05T23:35:15Z sukaeto: "append returns a new list that is the concatenation of the copies. lists are left unchanged;"
2017-07-05T23:35:53Z marvin2: oh you're right, I just searched that page for mutation
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2017-07-05T23:37:31Z |3b| doesn't think clhs uses the term "mutation"/"mutate"
2017-07-05T23:37:45Z axion: I have never seen it
2017-07-05T23:38:24Z Bike: usually it says "destructive(ly)", which is also exciting
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2017-07-05T23:38:42Z |3b|: yeah, modify or destructive
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2017-07-06T00:15:16Z antonv: Hello
2017-07-06T00:15:24Z antonv: Doesn anyone knows fre HTTP proxy?
2017-07-06T00:15:36Z antonv: I want to try one problem I suspect in Drakma.
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2017-07-06T00:15:59Z antonv: If the proxy is stable enough to be included into unit tests - that would be perfect.
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2017-07-06T03:28:25Z Guest47766: exit
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2017-07-06T04:52:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-07-06T04:52:50Z loke`: Hello beach~!
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2017-07-06T05:04:15Z vtomole: beach: Hey
2017-07-06T05:04:34Z vtomole: beach: I go the sicl repl running. Been playing with it all night
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2017-07-06T05:04:52Z vtomole: beach: Need to figure out how do automatically indent the code
2017-07-06T05:05:13Z beach: Nice!
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2017-07-06T05:09:30Z beach: vtomole: Sorry about people making you confused the other day.  That's just the intrinsic nature of #lisp.
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2017-07-06T05:12:27Z vtomole: beach: I understand. Seems like even seasoned lispers can lose track of the fundamentals. It's definitely not an "easy" language for a lack of a better word.
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2017-07-06T05:12:52Z beach: True.
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2017-07-06T05:16:34Z beach: vtomole: What year at the university are you in?
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2017-07-06T05:19:14Z vtomole: beach: I'm graduating May 2018
2017-07-06T05:19:34Z beach: I see.  Computer Science?
2017-07-06T05:19:44Z vtomole: beach: Computer Engineering
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2017-07-06T05:19:53Z beach: Nice.
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2017-07-06T05:23:08Z vtomole: beach: Gotta start thinking about getting a job. My days of lisping for 12+ hrs a day are going to come to an end :(
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2017-07-06T05:23:28Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2017-07-06T05:27:34Z vtomole: *thinking about how to add  SICL to Slime*
2017-07-06T05:27:48Z beach: That would be nice.
2017-07-06T05:27:57Z beach: vtomole: Are you in the US?
2017-07-06T05:28:43Z vtomole: beach: Yes.
2017-07-06T05:29:00Z beach: If I were you, I would think about moving around a bit, maybe New Zealand, Australia, or Europe.
2017-07-06T05:29:26Z beach: I have lived in 5 countries on 4 continents.  It gives an interesting perspective.
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2017-07-06T05:32:06Z vtomole: I've heard New Zealand is beautiful. But I might just go to Silicon Valley or something...
2017-07-06T05:32:22Z beach: Boring. :)
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2017-07-06T05:32:31Z vtomole: Not a lot of lisp meetups where i am
2017-07-06T05:32:39Z beach: Where is that?
2017-07-06T05:32:48Z vtomole: Iowa
2017-07-06T05:32:54Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.
2017-07-06T05:34:12Z beach: If you move to Europe, you will be closer to ELS. :)
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2017-07-06T05:34:33Z beach: Close to a hundred participants every year.
2017-07-06T05:35:01Z beach: You could get yourself hired by Ravenpack in Marbella.
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2017-07-06T05:35:47Z vtomole: I will go there sometime. It's annual correct? Around the springtime?
2017-07-06T05:35:56Z beach: Correct.
2017-07-06T05:36:04Z beach: Usually April or May.
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2017-07-06T05:37:53Z beach: If I were looking for a job, I might seriously consider Ravenpack in Marbella.
2017-07-06T05:38:16Z beach: Nice country, nice climate, good food, nice people, nice language.
2017-07-06T05:38:44Z vtomole: Spain? idk.
2017-07-06T05:39:10Z beach: Yes, south.  Close to Morocco. :)
2017-07-06T05:39:38Z beach: Spain is in the EU, so you have many interesting places that are easily accessible..
2017-07-06T05:40:19Z vtomole: Not England though :(
2017-07-06T05:40:30Z beach: Not anymore, right.
2017-07-06T05:40:57Z beach: And Spain is one of the few remaining countries where the extreme right is still marginal.  Off-topic, I know, sorry.
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2017-07-06T05:44:18Z vtomole: beach: It seems like a lot of Europeans (and people from other continents)  want to come here for tech, so i don't see why i would leave.
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2017-07-06T05:52:43Z beach: vtomole: I could give several reasons, but they would be off topic, so I'll refrain.
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2017-07-06T06:04:23Z vtomole: beach: SICL seems pretty complete from the code i've plugged in tonight. Do you regularly run ansi tests on the whole system?
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2017-07-06T06:05:25Z loke`: vtomole: Beach told me just a few days ago that it wasn't complete?
2017-07-06T06:05:46Z beach: vtomole: No, that would be premature.  The REPL "borrows" a lot of stuff from the host system.
2017-07-06T06:05:48Z vtomole: loke' : By "pretty complete" i meant like 99 %
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2017-07-06T06:06:30Z vtomole: beach: Once it can run on it's own with Cluster?
2017-07-06T06:06:51Z beach: vtomole: All the functions on numbers come from the host: +, -, *, /, sin, cos, tan, ...
2017-07-06T06:08:19Z beach: It is hard to give a completeness percentage, because there is a lot of stuff that is not directly visible in terms of the standard.
2017-07-06T06:09:48Z loke`: beach: what about IO stuff?
2017-07-06T06:10:29Z beach: I haven't done a lot about that either.
2017-07-06T06:12:10Z beach: ... assuming you mean the basic stuff like streams and such.
2017-07-06T06:12:32Z beach: Otherwise, the reader is pretty complete.
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2017-07-06T06:13:13Z beach: I have mainly been working on the hard stuff, like the compiler, first-class global environments, etc.
2017-07-06T06:13:32Z loke`: Yes, I was thinking about streams.
2017-07-06T06:13:50Z beach: I figured the straightforward stuff could be done by someone else. :)
2017-07-06T06:15:27Z vtomole: beach: How would you get SICL off the host?
2017-07-06T06:16:12Z beach: vtomole: Finish the bootstrapping process.  It is nontrivial.
2017-07-06T06:17:12Z vtomole: Do you have a paper talking about it?
2017-07-06T06:17:37Z beach: Not a published one, no.
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2017-07-06T06:18:20Z vtomole: Did you ever end up looking into how mezzano bootstraps?
2017-07-06T06:18:50Z beach: I started, but I have been too busy.  I will definitely do that.
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2017-07-06T08:37:46Z BW^-: are there any distributed non-copying garbage collectors?
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2017-07-06T08:38:11Z BW^-: ..or non-copying GC:s that segment objects, meaning tracing and marking is done in small iterations
2017-07-06T08:38:18Z BW^-: ..that are really good
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2017-07-06T08:42:36Z p_l: BW^-: real-time collectors, iterative (I think?) or concurrent ones
2017-07-06T08:45:18Z shka: usually you just use reference counting
2017-07-06T08:45:29Z p_l: not just that
2017-07-06T08:46:11Z p_l: IBM J9 used a collector that worked towards 70% MMU with 30% of the time in small amortized chunks for running collector
2017-07-06T08:46:47Z p_l: it meant that for a 10ms quanta, you had 7ms of mutator and 3ms of collector
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2017-07-06T08:50:28Z loke: What is ibm j9?
2017-07-06T08:51:15Z p_l: loke: IBM's own JVM
2017-07-06T08:51:29Z p_l: it's awesome but has... interesting license
2017-07-06T08:51:47Z p_l: tl;dr you need to be using an IBM product to be licensed it
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2017-07-06T08:54:42Z shka: how it is distributed?
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2017-07-06T08:54:55Z loke: Is it the thing you run on Zos?
2017-07-06T08:55:39Z dim: BW^-: I think the Erlang GC has the properties you're interested into
2017-07-06T08:56:12Z p_l: loke: Z/OS Java uses J9, yes, but there's also Linux, AIX, OS/2, even Windows build
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2017-07-06T08:56:32Z shka: dim: erlang GC runs on a single process
2017-07-06T08:56:33Z p_l: loke: if you run WebSphere you usually run it on J9
2017-07-06T08:56:53Z shka: thing is, there is share nothing design in erlang, so there is no need for distributed GC
2017-07-06T08:56:56Z loke: p_l: How do you run the windows build on IBM hardware?
2017-07-06T08:57:12Z p_l: loke: there's also "WebSphere Realtime" which has realtime-extended Java with even more tuned GC for realtime stable perf
2017-07-06T08:57:28Z loke: Oh wait, "product". Not necessarily hardware, I guess.
2017-07-06T08:57:35Z p_l: loke: x Series and thinkads are grandfathered, plus the product case
2017-07-06T08:57:42Z p_l: my laptop is licensed being a thinkpad
2017-07-06T08:58:04Z loke: So even if you run your own Linux installation on it, you can still use k9?
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2017-07-06T08:58:06Z loke: j9
2017-07-06T08:58:15Z p_l: yes
2017-07-06T08:58:27Z dim: I think I have dim memory of reading https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6844/271989c22aa1395466b88a65b5775ec9f791.pdf and kind of remember the gc being concurrent
2017-07-06T08:58:49Z p_l: they usually lag a little behind when new version of java becomes GA, but their engine is solid
2017-07-06T08:59:01Z p_l: (most of classpath is licensed from Sun/Oracle)
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2017-07-06T09:04:12Z BW^-: dim: Erlang is functional so it has no cyclic references?
2017-07-06T09:04:25Z BW^-: shka: reference counting doesn't handle cyclic structures, and i need those
2017-07-06T09:05:49Z BW^-: what i want is basically a cycle detection algorithm that has very little data updating between runs.
2017-07-06T09:06:18Z BW^-: a mark algorithm would fill that same purpose, but marking generally means you wipe the bitmap between runs, i.e. marking has *biig* data updating between runs.
2017-07-06T09:06:25Z BW^-: anyone knows any marking algorithm that does not?
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2017-07-06T09:06:40Z p_l: BW^-: any concurrent marking designed for running for example a tiny bit on every allocation
2017-07-06T09:07:13Z p_l: that's basis for work-oriented RTGC (vs. time oriented, which try to enforce specific run times)
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2017-07-06T09:12:23Z Grue``: (ql:system-apropos "magick") => ; No value
2017-07-06T09:12:57Z Grue``: hmm, so which imagemagick/graphicsmagick binding lib are people using?
2017-07-06T09:16:50Z Grue``: i really only need resizing (+ getting dimensions of image) but it must support any random jpg/png downloaded from the web
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2017-07-06T09:28:38Z BW^-: p_l: ?
2017-07-06T09:28:58Z BW^-: p_l: i'm looking for a cycle detection algorithm that doesn't need a marking bitmap, at least not the reconstruction of one on every GC cycle.
2017-07-06T09:29:23Z p_l: BW^-: you don't need to reconstruct one if you can continue the marking process
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2017-07-06T13:25:36Z Xach: Grue``: getting dimensions is very easy and can be done with a few lines of pure lisp. but resizing is obviously more involved.
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2017-07-06T13:28:54Z jackdaniel: Grue``: opticl is pure lisp solution for that kind of things
2017-07-06T13:30:41Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/image-info
2017-07-06T13:31:07Z dim uploading latest QL updates to debian 
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2017-07-06T13:36:47Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/commit/d55b5441ed1fd1f1128e05bc544a340271da42f7 in case someone uses CL in debian and wants to see what's impacted
2017-07-06T13:37:03Z dim: (it's not the whole of QL)
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2017-07-06T13:44:58Z p_l: minion: memo for BW^-: apparently azul has published full set of patches for linux in 2010 which allow all kind of GC and other optimizations, but they never went in
2017-07-06T13:45:00Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell BW^- when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-07-06T13:45:58Z Bike: what patches does azul need? barrier stuff?
2017-07-06T13:46:25Z p_l: Bike: they implement barriers and batched MMU manipulation kernel side, in order to avoid full context switch
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2017-07-06T13:46:55Z p_l: so they provided a way to implement that as loadable kernel modules
2017-07-06T13:48:06Z Bike: neat.
2017-07-06T13:51:33Z Bike: https://lwn.net/Articles/392307/ how skeptical
2017-07-06T13:52:09Z p_l: a lot of C defensiveness ;)
2017-07-06T13:53:08Z Bike: someone in the comments still saying GC is for the lazy, yes
2017-07-06T13:53:23Z Bike: doesn't solve any real problems. memory management mistakes aren't real
2017-07-06T13:54:33Z Bike: of course i have no idea of what kernel politics render plugins for schedulers or MMU dead in the water
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2017-07-06T14:18:11Z dim: oh that's new now: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY: Component ASDF/USER::TRIVIAL-FEATURES not found, required by #<SYSTEM "babel"> ; using QL bundle
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2017-07-06T14:24:04Z dim: Xach: it looks like a bug in ql:bundle-systems where it misses a dependency in the chain
2017-07-06T14:24:19Z Xach: dim: hmm!
2017-07-06T14:25:24Z Xach: ohhhh, crud.
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2017-07-06T14:25:28Z Xach: i think i know what the issue is.
2017-07-06T14:25:41Z Xach is probably going to fix it with a brown-paper-bag release
2017-07-06T14:25:45Z dim: I just manually added trivial-features to the list of "top-level" systems, and now I have Component IRONCLAD-SYSTEM::NIBBLES not found, required by #<SYSTEM "ironclad">
2017-07-06T14:25:58Z Xach: Yes. The june release probably has a broken systems.txt
2017-07-06T14:26:12Z dim: oh that would explain then
2017-07-06T14:26:13Z Xach: It will work through demand loading but the database is incomplete.
2017-07-06T14:26:23Z Xach: Sorry about that! I will try to fix it today!
2017-07-06T14:26:34Z Xach: I need some safety checks to prevent this, I think it's happened twice now.
2017-07-06T14:26:45Z dim: I guess I can release pgloader with the previous release meanwhile?
2017-07-06T14:27:15Z dim: or previous QL distribution...
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2017-07-06T14:34:16Z White_Flame: Great quote from the discussion on that LWN page: "Writing a project in C, in most cases, is premature optimization, the root of all evil."
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2017-07-06T14:40:40Z dim: this must be the most badly quoted quote ever
2017-07-06T14:40:48Z dim: the 3% part is always forgotten about
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2017-07-06T14:42:45Z White_Flame: yeah, it becomes an exaggeration, and because people only hear the exaggerated version it's taken as a straight statement
2017-07-06T14:45:45Z dim: Xach: is 2017-05-16 known broken too?
2017-07-06T14:45:56Z Xach: dim: not known
2017-07-06T14:47:43Z dim: in my testing it is :/
2017-07-06T14:48:15Z dim: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY:  Component IRONCLAD-SYSTEM::NIBBLES not found, required by #<SYSTEM "ironclad">
2017-07-06T14:48:31Z dim: now building againt 2017-04-03
2017-07-06T14:48:56Z dim: (given laptop warmth I think it's going to make it)
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2017-07-06T14:49:59Z dim: build passed
2017-07-06T14:51:07Z dim: tests passed
2017-07-06T14:51:08Z Xach: For some reason, when I build the dist from cron, it does not record dependencies properly. If I make a dist release from that build, they are broken in that regard.
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2017-07-06T14:51:16Z Xach: I have to do a manual build after the cron build to get it release-worthy.
2017-07-06T14:51:32Z Xach: I can't figure out what differs from cron to manual yet.
2017-07-06T14:51:35Z dim: how much do you depend on your posix env to be correct?
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2017-07-06T14:52:00Z Xach: Not much as far as I know.
2017-07-06T14:52:46Z dim: it's usually env variables, then user privileges when you're using different users, and... in our case if manual means SLIME maybe your saved application is using untested code paths?
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2017-07-06T14:57:53Z Xach: My understanding about how it works makes me think there *should* be no difference, but of course, there is, so I've got some understanding wrong.
2017-07-06T14:59:07Z dim: yeah, the classic situation is editing a config file to no avail only to realize you're not editing the config file that's actually used
2017-07-06T14:59:13Z dim: or editing one on another machine, too
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2017-07-06T16:38:35Z random_numbers: What was that pre-configured-for-Lisp emacs someone recommended here before?
2017-07-06T16:38:52Z random_numbers: I unfortunately didn't see fit to bookmark it before.
2017-07-06T16:39:15Z Xach: Portacle, maybe?
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2017-07-06T16:39:49Z Xach: It's pretty easy to configure from scratch these days, too.
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2017-07-06T16:40:02Z Xach: package-install helps in that regard. I use it to get paredit.
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2017-07-06T16:43:45Z dim: as the author of el-get, +1 here, and I recommend MELPA ;-)
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2017-07-06T16:51:08Z random_numbers: Xach: Ah thanks, that was it.
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2017-07-06T16:51:50Z random_numbers: I would use MELPA if their inclusion criteria were better. They pull from plain-text transfer sources. :/
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2017-07-06T16:52:34Z random_numbers: I prefer to go the old traditional git-submodule way and check what I install.
2017-07-06T16:52:49Z random_numbers: It proves educative too. :D
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2017-07-06T17:27:55Z shka_: hey folks
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2017-07-06T17:28:29Z shka_: how to figure out what libraries are loaded with cffi?
2017-07-06T17:28:36Z shka_: namely paths to so files
2017-07-06T17:29:35Z Xach: shka_: which implementation?
2017-07-06T17:29:39Z shka_: ecl
2017-07-06T17:29:44Z Xach does not know
2017-07-06T17:31:24Z shka_: hmmm
2017-07-06T17:31:29Z shka_: and in sbcl?
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2017-07-06T17:33:37Z fe[nl]ix: shka_: the openrating system APIs don't allow you to know the actual paths
2017-07-06T17:33:38Z fe[nl]ix: by design
2017-07-06T17:34:07Z fe[nl]ix: you just open "libssl.so" and dlopen() will find it somewhere, but there's no official way of getting back a path
2017-07-06T17:34:25Z shka_: but ffi may store this information
2017-07-06T17:34:39Z fe[nl]ix: so if you're on Linux you can open /proc/<pid>/maps and see what files are mapped
2017-07-06T17:34:53Z shka_: aaaah, ok, that's nice idea
2017-07-06T17:34:57Z shka_: thanks!
2017-07-06T17:35:00Z fe[nl]ix: shka_: if the OS APIs don't return that information, the FFI can't store it
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2017-07-06T17:43:29Z TMA: shka_: that info can be disabled (i think grsecurity patch does that)
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2017-07-06T17:45:33Z axion: Does anyone know the Clozure equivalent of (sb-ext:disable-debugger) ?
2017-07-06T17:47:00Z Bike: might not have it?
2017-07-06T17:47:11Z shka_: TMA: will check
2017-07-06T17:47:23Z Bike: you can set debugger-hook, though. maybe
2017-07-06T17:48:35Z axion: Oh hmm
2017-07-06T17:48:57Z Bike: though i don't see how you can use it to unconditionally stop
2017-07-06T17:50:03Z axion: I guess it really doesn't matter. My opengl application has a entry point that's called when ran as a dumped image, instead of interactively...and I set (sb-ext:disable-debugger) there...I guess I won't ever need to dump on other implementations anyway, just that I test with CCL
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2017-07-06T18:41:50Z zetax: hey is there any straightforward method of getting version number from .asd?
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2017-07-06T18:42:21Z Bike: asdf:component-version
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2017-07-06T18:42:58Z Bike: like (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :alexandria)) => "0.0.0"
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2017-07-06T18:48:59Z zetax: it claims it can't find package. specifically I'm trying to get name of package I am working in now.
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2017-07-06T18:49:23Z zetax: (asdf:component-version :myapp) just says it doesn't exist
2017-07-06T18:49:31Z axion: If your system is findable by asdf, the above will work.
2017-07-06T18:49:33Z beach: zetax: Are you talking about Common Lisp packages or ASDF systems?
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2017-07-06T18:50:15Z zetax: it's declared in asdf:defsystem and works
2017-07-06T18:50:32Z beach: So it's a system, not a package.
2017-07-06T18:50:42Z axion: zetax: Packages are just containers of symbols. I believe you want to get the version of a "system". Please learn the difference.
2017-07-06T18:51:08Z zetax: so how do I get version of system?
2017-07-06T18:51:22Z beach: What Bike showed you.
2017-07-06T18:51:33Z axion: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :system-name))
2017-07-06T18:51:48Z axion: Assuming it has a standard version component defined.
2017-07-06T18:52:01Z zetax: why should I have to search for someting that I know exists by name and I'm literally inside it
2017-07-06T18:52:09Z axion: and that it is registered in asdf's source registry
2017-07-06T18:52:13Z Bike: you're not "inside" any system.
2017-07-06T18:52:19Z Bike: systems are just things you can load and such.
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2017-07-06T18:53:09Z axion: You're inside a package, but packages do not have versions...systems do. You are not "inside" your system.
2017-07-06T18:53:43Z axion: I think it's time to post this again http://weitz.de/packages.html
2017-07-06T18:53:47Z zetax: yes that works, thank you.
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2017-07-06T18:55:17Z beach: zetax: What was it that worked?
2017-07-06T18:55:31Z zetax: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :system-name))
2017-07-06T18:55:57Z beach: So at first you gave it a package name rather than a system name?
2017-07-06T18:56:41Z axion: At first he thought he could leave out the inner form because he was "inside his system".
2017-07-06T18:56:48Z axion: Hence the link I posted to clear any confusion up
2017-07-06T18:57:00Z beach: Got it.
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2017-07-06T19:08:17Z zetax: well some way of calling this or something would be nice. like in java or ecmascript
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2017-07-06T19:08:58Z zetax: or at least leaving the search out. "hey asdf man I know full-well this thingy exists so do it"
2017-07-06T19:09:57Z axion: What is this?
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2017-07-06T19:18:44Z axion: Well, we tried. I take it by his last statement he did not even bother to read the link.
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2017-07-06T20:22:34Z phoe: Minor announcement: I've been trying to coordinate working on CLUS along my normal employment duties, but this turned out to be impossible. It's an exclusive OR.
2017-07-06T20:22:50Z phoe: Not enough hours in the day.
2017-07-06T20:23:04Z axion: :/
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2017-07-06T20:43:07Z phoe: I will be reviewing my lifestyle soon and hopefully will change something in this.
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2017-07-06T21:03:28Z Xach:    
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2017-07-06T23:32:20Z Xach: well, today from cron it worked fine. puzzling.
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2017-07-06T23:38:10Z dim: how do you test/
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2017-07-06T23:41:47Z Xach: dim: I think it is a case of image vs filesystem state.
2017-07-06T23:42:01Z Xach: dim: i made a change to a function but didn't compile, but my cron job compiles each time.
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2017-07-06T23:42:12Z Xach: (that is my guess)
2017-07-06T23:43:43Z Xach: dim: i test by adding a new post-build report that complains loudly if there aren't proper system deps
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2017-07-06T23:48:41Z dim: oh, image vs sources, gotcha
2017-07-06T23:48:51Z dim: test: my fear is obviously that your test pass and my build fails
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2017-07-07T00:43:08Z Xach: hmm, common-lisp.net svn does not update for me right now
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2017-07-07T00:43:44Z Xach: can you "svn co svn://common-lisp.net/project/py-configparser/svn/trunk"?
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2017-07-07T00:45:18Z dim: Connection refused
2017-07-07T00:45:39Z random_numbers: Network is unreachable.
2017-07-07T00:45:49Z Xach: I get "network is unreachable"
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2017-07-07T00:46:40Z dim: in full I have svn: E000061: Can't connect to host 'common-lisp.net': Connection refused
2017-07-07T00:47:37Z Xach: easye: any tips?
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2017-07-07T00:53:51Z random_numbers: Trim the older logs and reset the server.
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2017-07-07T02:50:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-07T08:58:42Z drmeister: Does anyone have a suggestion for portably determining a reasonable number of threads to spawn on a particular system?
2017-07-07T08:59:16Z drmeister: Alternatively I'll just read PJOBS from the environment
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2017-07-07T09:00:58Z drdo: drmeister: Portable I don't know, but there's plenty of ways for each system
2017-07-07T09:01:32Z drdo: You could just write a little function that supports the common systems and has a default for unknown systems
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2017-07-07T09:06:56Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: PJOBS ?
2017-07-07T09:07:02Z drmeister: I parallelized Clasp's static analyzer using the multi-threading functionality I recently added as well as a non-blocking concurrent multi-producer/multi-consumer queue implemented in C++ and exposed within Clasp.
2017-07-07T09:07:19Z drmeister: I use PJOBS in the build system
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2017-07-07T09:10:52Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: https://github.com/hyperic/sigar
2017-07-07T09:11:07Z fe[nl]ix: that library is amazing
2017-07-07T09:11:13Z fe[nl]ix: if you like its licence
2017-07-07T09:11:25Z fe[nl]ix: Apache2
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2017-07-07T09:17:16Z drmeister: Hmm, the web page won't open
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2017-07-07T09:18:00Z fe[nl]ix: lol, did you block javascript ?
2017-07-07T09:18:44Z fe[nl]ix: you mean http://sigar.hyperic.com/ ?
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2017-07-07T10:00:23Z Fade:  /me waves
2017-07-07T10:00:35Z Fade , too
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2017-07-07T10:37:06Z fe[nl]ix: Fade: hey, what's up ?
2017-07-07T10:37:20Z fe[nl]ix: where are you nowadays ?
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2017-07-07T10:45:06Z loke`: hello fenlix
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2017-07-07T10:47:23Z fe[nl]ix: hi loke`
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2017-07-07T10:59:35Z dim: drdo: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-cpus/ made it to latest QL release
2017-07-07T11:00:17Z drdo: dim: Yeah that's the kind of thing I meant
2017-07-07T11:02:03Z dim: oh and that was for drmeister actually...
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2017-07-07T11:22:33Z phoe: Xach: I have a question about SKIPPY
2017-07-07T11:22:54Z phoe: Does it have any functionality for "flattening" GIF frames?
2017-07-07T11:23:25Z phoe: Like, image is 100x100, its first frame is 100x100, its second frame is 50x50 with offset (25,25).
2017-07-07T11:23:56Z phoe: I'd like to turn the second frame into a 100x100 frame that consists of the first frame and second frame "merged", "flattened" together.
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2017-07-07T11:26:52Z Xach: phoe: I have used it for that
2017-07-07T11:27:57Z Xach: phoe: http://xach.com/lisp/skippy/#composite for example
2017-07-07T11:28:11Z Xach: phoe: i don't remember if it dtrt with transparency though.
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2017-07-07T13:02:28Z Xach: phoe: did it work?
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2017-07-07T13:37:21Z Xach: beach, jackdaniel: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-07/failure-report/mcclim.html#mcclim-raster-image
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2017-07-07T13:38:10Z beach: Xach: Thanks!
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2017-07-07T13:40:22Z jackdaniel: Xach: thanks, looking at it now
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2017-07-07T13:46:28Z jackdaniel: Xach: could you try now? (pushed change hopefully fixing the issue)
2017-07-07T13:46:43Z Xach: jackdaniel: will try soon and report results
2017-07-07T13:47:04Z jackdaniel: alright
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2017-07-07T14:01:24Z Xach: Looks good!
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2017-07-07T14:02:29Z jackdaniel: \o/
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2017-07-07T14:03:05Z Xach: |3b|: is 3bgl-shader good for quicklisp?
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2017-07-07T14:55:04Z phoe: Xach: I am in no position to test it yet
2017-07-07T14:55:07Z phoe: I will most likely do it tomorrow
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2017-07-07T15:56:30Z Fade: fe[nl]ix: sorry, got waylaid by my kid and didn't see your reply. Things are good. :)
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2017-07-07T16:04:59Z phoe: oh, so with this
2017-07-07T16:06:04Z phoe: starting with N = 1, I a) copy frame N, b) grab frame N+1, c) destructively compose frame N+1 onto the copy of N, d) the copy of N becomes the new N+1.
2017-07-07T16:06:10Z phoe: Xach: is this more or less correct?
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2017-07-07T16:21:19Z fe[nl]ix: Fade: still in Toronto ?
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2017-07-07T16:28:07Z Xach: phoe: you could make a fresh accumulator frame also
2017-07-07T16:28:33Z phoe: Xach: what do you mean, fresh accumulator frame?
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2017-07-07T16:29:13Z phoe: Frame X needs to be a composite of all frames 1..X-1, and that's how I can assure this constraint
2017-07-07T16:29:31Z phoe: and the original X
2017-07-07T16:29:43Z phoe: so actually X' = composite(1..X)
2017-07-07T16:30:10Z phoe: or X' = composite(X-1', X)
2017-07-07T16:30:11Z Xach: phoe: I mean using make-image to produce a new frame that is not taken from one of the existing frames.
2017-07-07T16:30:21Z phoe: oh, yes - that's what I want to do
2017-07-07T16:30:23Z Xach: If you think you have something that works, try it
2017-07-07T16:30:33Z phoe: I will - just, I'm swamped with stuff
2017-07-07T16:30:36Z phoe: I'll try to find some time for it.
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2017-07-07T16:33:49Z phoe: Is there a CFFI tool that will crawl across a whole C header file and automatically define in Lisp all C variables and functions encountered there?
2017-07-07T16:34:20Z phoe: So I can go (include "foo.h") instead of manually DEFCFUNing N times?
2017-07-07T16:34:29Z _death: autowrap
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2017-07-07T16:47:49Z phoe: _death: does the resulting binary depend on clang? or is this used only during compilation time?
2017-07-07T16:49:21Z _death: it says (in bold) "Neither c2ffi, nor any compiler (or even .h files!) are necessary for your users!"
2017-07-07T16:49:40Z phoe: oh
2017-07-07T16:49:48Z phoe: haha, me not reading READMEs fuly
2017-07-07T16:49:50Z phoe: fully
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2017-07-07T16:54:17Z Fade: fe[nl]ix: aye. I am.
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2017-07-07T16:56:31Z axion: Xach: 3bgl-shader is good for quicklisp. 3b and I did a lot of work recently to ensure it is ready and well tested
2017-07-07T16:56:50Z Xach: axion: cool
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2017-07-07T17:57:14Z phoe: Anyone who has autowrap and lzma-dev on linux installed: can you help me figure out why (autowrap:c-include "/usr/include/lzma/LzmaEnc.h") fails?
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2017-07-07T17:58:03Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/0TmJKZxz <- that's what using c2ffi manually tells me.
2017-07-07T18:00:12Z xyh: I am testing lisp (and scheme) debug repl by 'kill -SEGV <pid>'.
2017-07-07T18:00:38Z Bike: const long __c2ffi_NULL = NULL; seems kind of bizarre, but i don't know autowrap
2017-07-07T18:00:48Z xyh: it seems not many scheme have debug repl
2017-07-07T18:01:09Z Bike: a debug repl as in a way to recover from segfault?
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2017-07-07T18:02:00Z xyh: yes
2017-07-07T18:02:18Z xyh: to let you debug segfault
2017-07-07T18:02:24Z xyh: not recover
2017-07-07T18:03:11Z Bike: so... you want to see what, information about the bad access, a backtrace?
2017-07-07T18:03:38Z shka_: Bike: can i actually see backtrace?
2017-07-07T18:03:57Z Bike: from a segfault? sometimes
2017-07-07T18:04:05Z shka_: how can i do that?
2017-07-07T18:04:28Z Bike: uh, get one and see what happens, i guess
2017-07-07T18:04:39Z Bike: in a lisp system a segfault usually means an internal error or a problem in cffi cod
2017-07-07T18:04:40Z Bike: e
2017-07-07T18:04:58Z shka_: yeah, sorry, i was unspecific
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2017-07-07T18:05:27Z xyh: lisp implementations handle them well
2017-07-07T18:05:38Z shka_: i was thinking about debugging faulty library loaded with CFFI
2017-07-07T18:06:12Z shka_: i was under impression that it is not possible with lisp alone
2017-07-07T18:06:17Z Bike: off the top of my head i know sbcl has a handler for sigsegv. i would guess ccl does as well, considering how related to objc interop it is
2017-07-07T18:06:22Z phoe: ^
2017-07-07T18:06:30Z shka_: yes it has
2017-07-07T18:06:38Z shka_: but it won't show C stack ofc
2017-07-07T18:06:56Z Bike: ah, well, i'd just use g/lldb like normal
2017-07-07T18:07:03Z shka_: ah, ok
2017-07-07T18:07:24Z shka_: it's fine, I just thought that I am doing it all wrong since ever
2017-07-07T18:07:35Z shka_: ;-)
2017-07-07T18:07:38Z xyh: testing them with 'kill -SEGV <pid>' is interesting
2017-07-07T18:07:55Z xyh: sbcl and ccl all handle it well
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2017-07-07T18:08:23Z xyh: chez also can handle it
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2017-07-07T18:08:40Z xyh: ruby is funny ~
2017-07-07T18:08:45Z Bike: what do they other schemes do, just the default crap?
2017-07-07T18:10:43Z xyh: guile, larceny, scheme48, do not handle it.
2017-07-07T18:10:44Z xyh: racket, chicken, know about it.
2017-07-07T18:11:30Z xyh: but I think the right way to handle it is a debug repl.
2017-07-07T18:11:55Z Bike: well, yes, there's no reason to kill the process
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2017-07-07T18:12:28Z xyh: yes
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2017-07-07T18:28:24Z xyh: it is hard to implement signal handler well (specially when we have cffi) :: http://fars.ee/7x-j
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2017-07-07T18:28:49Z Bike: i was trying to figure out what sbcl was doing, and could not
2017-07-07T18:30:28Z xyh: due to the stdio IO cache of libc ... I guess we just going into nested debug repl.
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2017-07-07T18:31:47Z Bike: i mean, i don't think it runs the repl inside the handler
2017-07-07T18:31:47Z Bike: would be non reentrant to say the least...
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2017-07-07T18:34:48Z xyh: a handler can set a flag and exit, the flag can be checked by lisp runtime.
2017-07-07T18:34:55Z Bike: right.
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2017-07-07T18:36:36Z phoe: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/issues/77 <- I will actually prefer to autowrap the LZMA headers because of the giant mass of types that are declared in its Types.h
2017-07-07T18:36:49Z phoe: And including Types.h seems to error the same way.
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2017-07-07T19:28:22Z Xach: hej dim!!
2017-07-07T19:33:34Z dim: yeah?
2017-07-07T19:33:54Z Xach: dim: i am about to publish an alpha with updated metadata and a few updated libraries
2017-07-07T19:34:04Z Xach: it may be useful for build testing?
2017-07-07T19:34:30Z Xach: for pgloader, that is.
2017-07-07T19:34:34Z dim: an alpha of what?
2017-07-07T19:34:48Z Xach: dim: the quicklisp dist
2017-07-07T19:34:49Z dim: an alpha release of QL?
2017-07-07T19:35:02Z Xach: dim: it is a version of the quicklisp dist that is a kind of snapshot of what's working today...
2017-07-07T19:35:06Z dim: ah yes, want me to try building pgloader as a bundle with it?
2017-07-07T19:35:13Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2014/01/a-dist-for-testing.html
2017-07-07T19:35:25Z Xach: dim: sure, it would help determine if the metadata is working as it should.
2017-07-07T19:36:04Z dim: let's have a look
2017-07-07T19:36:41Z Xach: (it isn't fully uploaded yet)
2017-07-07T19:36:54Z dim: given pgloader local checkout you can just make clean; make bundle to create a tarball, then extract it somewhere, cd there and type make to see the success/failure
2017-07-07T19:37:11Z dim: the only thing to edit, if you wanted to try, is https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/bundle/ql.lisp
2017-07-07T19:37:14Z dim: I'm doing that now
2017-07-07T19:37:34Z Xach: ok, cool
2017-07-07T19:37:38Z dim: (it seems pdftk is broken here anyway)
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2017-07-07T19:38:49Z dim: the download phase looks good already
2017-07-07T19:38:57Z dim: (the broken dists won't download much)
2017-07-07T19:39:33Z Xach: ok, the alpha is now fully published
2017-07-07T19:39:45Z dim: bundle done, building
2017-07-07T19:39:51Z dim: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY:
2017-07-07T19:39:51Z dim:   Component :MD5 not found, required by #<SYSTEM "cl-postgres">
2017-07-07T19:41:26Z Xach: dim: hmm. did you disable the "quicklisp" dist?
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2017-07-07T19:43:15Z dim: ahah, didn't, retrying
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2017-07-07T19:46:24Z dim: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY:
2017-07-07T19:46:25Z dim:   Component ASDF/USER::TRIVIAL-FEATURES not found, required by #<SYSTEM "babel">
2017-07-07T19:46:31Z dim: here's what I get this time
2017-07-07T19:49:10Z Xach: dim: hmm.
2017-07-07T19:50:38Z Xach: dim: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "trivial-features")?
2017-07-07T19:50:54Z Xach: oops, that shouldn't work.
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2017-07-07T20:01:41Z dim: oops, back, let's see
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2017-07-07T20:01:59Z dim: you want to evaluate that from the bundled systems I guess?
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2017-07-07T20:04:34Z dim: from the bundle of course Package QL does not exist.
2017-07-07T20:04:50Z dim: from the environment that prepares the bundle, it's again different from my usual REPL
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2017-07-07T20:06:58Z dim: and it's NIL in the bundle environment
2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: (ql-dist:disable (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp"))
2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: (ql-dist:install-dist *ql-dist* :prompt nil :replace t)
2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: ;; (ql:bundle-systems '("pgloader" "buildapp") :to *bundle-dir*)
2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: (format *standard-output* "~a~%" (ql:where-is-system "trivial-features"))
2017-07-07T20:07:22Z dim: I'm doing that in ql.lisp file which I --load with SBCL
2017-07-07T20:08:23Z Xach: dim: Can you share a backtrace? I tried to build locally but I'm missing some dylibs.
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2017-07-07T20:12:10Z dim: ah yeah dylibs, forgot about that, sorry
2017-07-07T20:12:18Z dim: I don't have a backtrace, it just says nil
2017-07-07T20:13:50Z dim: brew install freetds might get you running, sqlite3 is in macosx itself and openssl too IIRC
2017-07-07T20:14:21Z Xach: ok
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2017-07-07T20:30:09Z dim away now, good luck!
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2017-07-07T21:19:55Z alice_bot__:  * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
2017-07-07T21:19:55Z alice_bot1_:  g                                               g
2017-07-07T21:19:55Z alice_bot3_:  a|       |                       |      |      a
2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot4_:  t|       `.             |         |       :     t
2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot5_:  s`        |             |        |       |     s
2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot6_:  e        | /       /  \   --__ \       :    e
2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot7_:  x        /   _--~~          ~--__|      |    x
2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot8_:  *         _-~                    ~-_    |    *
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2017-07-08T03:15:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-08T07:39:31Z drmeister: What are peoples feelings about thread safe hash tables?   Do you think WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR should lock the hash table for thread safe hash tables?
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2017-07-08T07:47:36Z beach: drmeister: That might be tricky.
2017-07-08T07:47:58Z beach: drmeister: At what point in WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR would you lock?
2017-07-08T07:49:22Z beach: drmeister: You need to specify what the Common Lisp HyperSpec leaves unspecified.
2017-07-08T07:49:37Z beach: "It is unspecified what happens if any of the implicit interior state of an iteration is returned outside the dynamic extent of the with-hash-table-iterator form such as by returning some closure over the invocation form."
2017-07-08T07:50:14Z Bike: that doesn't seem related?
2017-07-08T07:52:10Z beach: Sure, if the answer is "don't do it; all hell will break loose", then it is fine to lock during the dynamic extent of WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR.
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2017-07-08T07:56:23Z beach: But if you want something like (with-hash-table-iterator (name ht) (fun (lambda () name))) to work and the hash table to be locked as long as the closure is live, then it is going to be trickier.
2017-07-08T07:57:49Z beach: Maybe it is unrelated, and I just don't see it.
2017-07-08T07:59:53Z Bike: oh. i see the relation. but guaranteeing that seems like overkill. i mean, i'd have it so that not letting it escape will work, and letting it escape will allow the hash table to hit weird states that still don't break the image or anything
2017-07-08T08:03:57Z beach: That's what I meant by drmeister needing to specify what might happen.
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2017-07-08T08:04:13Z Bike: oh.
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2017-07-08T20:56:46Z Xach: so much excitement!!
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2017-07-08T21:49:02Z deba5e12: hey, cffi question: something fishy is happening in one of the libraries i'm linking to with cffi, so i figured i'd put some printfs in there to see what's up. the output isn't appearing in the slime repl, or in the *inferior-lisp* buffer, or in a vanilla ccl repl, if i run the process there. the strangest part is that i don't even see it when running strace on the lisp process with -f. any thoughts on
2017-07-08T21:49:08Z deba5e12: what i might be overlooking?
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2017-07-09T02:50:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-09T03:11:31Z mrcom: minion: memo for deba5e12: 1) Doh! answer - the printfs aren't being called. 99.9% likelyhood :) 2) C library is defining its own version of printf, and defaults to no-op.
2017-07-09T03:11:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell deba5e12 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-07-09T03:18:35Z vtomole: PuercoPop: Are you here?
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2017-07-09T05:44:29Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I'm implementing jupyter widgets for Common Lisp.
2017-07-09T05:44:34Z drmeister: I've got a bit of a puzzle.
2017-07-09T05:44:54Z drmeister: I have messages that come in from the browser to Common Lisp that update slots of widgets.
2017-07-09T05:46:10Z drmeister: When a message comes in from the browser that a widget in the browser changed (via the jupyter widgets machinery)  I use (setf (slot-value widget slot-name) value)    to set the value of a slot
2017-07-09T05:46:43Z drmeister: I also need to be able to set slots of widgets from within Common Lisp and have that lead to a message being sent to the browser.
2017-07-09T05:47:14Z drmeister: I can write an :around method for (setf slotxxx)  but I think that will lead to cascades of messages where:
2017-07-09T05:47:29Z drmeister: message from browser -> setf slot-value -> message to browser.
2017-07-09T05:47:38Z drmeister: How would I avoid this?
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2017-07-09T06:32:21Z beach: minion: Welcome back!
2017-07-09T06:32:21Z minion: thanks!
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2017-07-09T06:35:03Z drmeister: This is probably a terrible idea - but what if I set a dynamic variable and had the (setf slot-value-using-class) method check that variable to determine what the source of the setf call is.
2017-07-09T06:36:39Z drmeister: I'm about to lose power on my laptop - in case anyone has strong feelings about my suggestion above - I'll check back in a bit when I get power again.
2017-07-09T06:36:59Z White_Flame: Your update messages should have a "message source" field
2017-07-09T06:37:20Z White_Flame: if it matches the current recipient, don't propagate it.
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2017-07-09T06:37:39Z White_Flame: or, if it matches the recipient you're about to send to, don't send it
2017-07-09T06:41:24Z White_Flame: "originator" is probably the best name for such a field
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2017-07-09T07:02:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: drmeister: have you seen this new Jupyter-like notebook written in CL? https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter
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2017-07-09T07:04:46Z vtomole: fiddlerwoaroof: Hey! Nice!
2017-07-09T07:04:50Z drmeister: No - what is it?
2017-07-09T07:04:59Z vtomole: looks like an ide
2017-07-09T07:05:04Z vtomole: on web browser
2017-07-09T07:05:13Z vtomole: For Common Lisp
2017-07-09T07:05:21Z drmeister: Is it using jupyter notebooks?
2017-07-09T07:05:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's sort of like Jupyter, except entirely written in CL.  I just saw it on Hacker News earlier today
2017-07-09T07:05:36Z drmeister: I'm on my phone - things aren't too clear
2017-07-09T07:06:38Z vtomole: fiddlerwoaroof: I like emacs+slime a little tooo much to move to this though haha
2017-07-09T07:07:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: vtomole: yeah, I wouldn't actually switch, I just thought it would be a great way to introduce other people to CL without teaching them emacs
2017-07-09T07:08:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: It uses the ace editor component (I believe this is what Atom is based on) so it's probably fairly easy to add something like parinfer or paredit to it.
2017-07-09T07:09:06Z vtomole: For sure. Emacs was a huge hurdle when i wanted to start hacking CL last year.
2017-07-09T07:09:17Z vtomole: And some people just hate emacs from the outset
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2017-07-09T07:09:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I used vim for quite a while until I discovered how easy it would be to port my vim configuration to evil-mode
2017-07-09T07:10:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: As I like to say, evil-mode is the best vi-clone
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2017-07-09T07:10:54Z vtomole: That is what i'll point the cl noobs to.
2017-07-09T07:11:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I discovered today that Atom + atom-slime + paredit works pretty well
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2017-07-09T07:12:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm half-considering Making a Mac App that bundles atom, a couple plugins, quicklisp and sbcl
2017-07-09T07:12:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really feel like taking the effort on something I wouldn't use myself, though
2017-07-09T07:13:35Z vtomole: If it could potentially increase CL adoption..
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2017-07-09T07:45:55Z PuercoPop: vtomole: here now (one can always use minion for async communication)
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2017-07-09T07:47:41Z vtomole: PuercoPop: Not very urgent, but I had some problems with formlets earlier:https://github.com/inaimathi/formlets/issues/18
2017-07-09T07:48:03Z vtomole: I saw that you contributed a bit to the project so i figured you knew something about it.
2017-07-09T07:52:27Z drmeister: fiddlerwoaroof: When you use evil-mode in emacs - how do you deal with mental context switching when you switch from an editor buffer (evil mode) to a terminal buffer or calc buffer (not in evil mode).
2017-07-09T07:52:56Z drmeister: I'd like to use evil-mode in emacs - but mentally switching in and out of evil-mode drove me nuts.
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2017-07-09T08:00:28Z PuercoPop: vtomole: Yeah, I think some of Leo's projects have a lot of potential, especially house. But as was the case with https://github.com/mmontone/cl-forms I didn't liked how it was implemented. In the case of formlets in particular how the rendering wasn't stream based. I wrote by own library based on formlets but with a simpler implementation and more extensible. It is good enough for what I wanted ATM (just a login fo
2017-07-09T08:00:28Z PuercoPop: rm) but I haven't tackled multiple choice fields or thought about how to best handle server specific interactions (or if that should be in scope) and the only documentation is a meager 'test' file. https://github.com/PuercoPop/html-forms
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2017-07-09T08:02:47Z vtomole: PuercoPop: Ok i will look into it. thanks.
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2017-07-09T08:04:16Z PuercoPop: Btw anyone has any pointers on any pattern based ways to desugar sexps? I've only found http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=755247 (which uses something similar to prolog unification) and https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1990/CSD-90-608.pdf
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2017-07-09T08:08:06Z PuercoPop: vtomole: Let me know if you need any help or have some feedback with html-forms, in my mind it is easy to understand and clear how to extend (it is a really small library < 500 LoC) but ymmv. Also if you have any ideas as to how improve 'data-binding' part of the API (extracting the valid values) or if you need integration with an ORM like CLSQL, which it is something I want to add in the future
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2017-07-09T14:48:20Z zm: How do I test the efficiency of a function? I'm mainly interested in how many cons cells are used/created during the computation.
2017-07-09T14:48:59Z Bike: try wrapping calls in TIME, it might track allocation
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2017-07-09T14:49:17Z Bike: failing that, your implementation likely has a profiler, or you could quickload the METERING system
2017-07-09T14:49:24Z zm: I did do that but it didn't return the number of cons cells.
2017-07-09T14:49:37Z beach: zm: What implementation?
2017-07-09T14:49:40Z zm: SBCL.
2017-07-09T14:50:03Z beach: Hmm.  As I recall, that information is given.
2017-07-09T14:50:09Z zm: Unless ‘135,872 processor cycles’ are the cons?
2017-07-09T14:50:15Z beach: No.
2017-07-09T14:50:17Z Bike: no, it's the "whatever KB allocated"
2017-07-09T14:50:25Z Bike: it doesn't go as fine grained as how many cons cells, i don't think
2017-07-09T14:50:37Z zm: No such information returned.
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2017-07-09T14:51:06Z beach:  160,006,144 bytes consed here.
2017-07-09T14:51:14Z beach: when I say (time (make-list 10000000))
2017-07-09T14:51:17Z Bike: oh, consed, not allocated
2017-07-09T14:51:58Z beach: zm: What did you type then?
2017-07-09T14:51:59Z zm: This is the information returned from wrapping a form with TIME: https://0x0.st/GPE.txt
2017-07-09T14:52:06Z zm: (time ...)
2017-07-09T14:52:13Z Bike: 0 bytes consed, then
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2017-07-09T14:52:26Z Bike: however, that's an extremely short function you're timing, it looks like
2017-07-09T14:52:28Z zm: That doesn't make sense though.
2017-07-09T14:52:43Z Bike: try doing (time (loop repeat 100000 do whatever))
2017-07-09T14:53:04Z Bike: in SBCL i think allocations of less than 4 KB won't show up
2017-07-09T14:53:05Z beach: zm: Can you show us the function, and how you called it inside TIME?
2017-07-09T14:53:20Z zm: Yes, there's a bit of context to the function: https://0x0.st/GPI.txt
2017-07-09T14:53:53Z Bike: and you're timing SIBLINGS?
2017-07-09T14:54:01Z zm: Indeed.
2017-07-09T14:54:18Z Bike: yeah that's way too small for sbcl's time granularity
2017-07-09T14:54:56Z zm: Alright, thanks Bike, beach.
2017-07-09T14:55:02Z beach: Anytime.
2017-07-09T14:55:49Z zm: I suppose I just have to watch out for list manipulation functions that create lists.
2017-07-09T14:55:50Z Bike: if you want to reduce consing you might try passing remove-if-not :key #'car, instead of using the mapcar. i don't think sbcl is smat enough to remove the interior allocation for you
2017-07-09T14:57:10Z zm: Using the first remove-if-not or passing another to the first?
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2017-07-09T14:58:06Z Bike: (remove-if-not (lambda (x) ...) family :key #'car)
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2017-07-09T14:59:08Z zm: Hm, perhaps but I get a list inside a list, haha.
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2017-07-09T14:59:40Z Bike: oh, wait, yeh, you won't get the cars out of it
2017-07-09T15:00:11Z Bike: i guess to avoid the intermediate allocation it would be easier with a loop then
2017-07-09T15:00:26Z zm: A bit advanced for me.
2017-07-09T15:00:44Z beach: zm: Checking amount allocated is VERY advanced.
2017-07-09T15:00:55Z zm: Oh.
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2017-07-09T15:01:01Z beach: zm: Why are you so interested in that?
2017-07-09T15:01:20Z zm: I was comparing two versions of siblings and didn't know which was better.
2017-07-09T15:01:57Z beach: I think you can forget about consing until you improve on your data structure for other reasons.
2017-07-09T15:02:25Z zm: Alright.
2017-07-09T15:03:00Z beach: I would use hash tables for father, mother, parents.
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2017-07-09T15:03:31Z beach: ... provided the family is kind of static and the number of queries might be significant.
2017-07-09T15:04:58Z beach: In fact, the function siblings could be a simple hash-table query as well if you preprocess the family into a bunch of hash tables.
2017-07-09T15:05:25Z beach: Then the consing would drop to zero, no matter how many queries you make.
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2017-07-09T15:10:55Z zm: That's interesting, I'll implement that some time.
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2017-07-09T15:20:08Z deba5e12: hey, mrcom, thanks for answering my question, re: printf in cffi-wrapped C functions
2017-07-09T15:20:19Z deba5e12: i just found the answer in the logs.
2017-07-09T15:20:38Z deba5e12: is this something cffi does -- mask printf (& presumably other io funcs)?
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2017-07-09T16:21:58Z axion: Is it possible to specify more than one type in a TYPECASE clause like I can with CASE?
2017-07-09T16:22:14Z _death: (or ...)
2017-07-09T16:22:30Z axion: Ah, that works, albeit a bit different
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2017-07-09T16:25:33Z axion: Is there a way to match an explicit T/NIL. I mapped a few types to OpenGL types, but I need to match boolean too.
2017-07-09T16:25:46Z _death: (eql <object>)
2017-07-09T16:26:09Z drmeister: We are implementing jupyter widgets for Common Lisp.
2017-07-09T16:26:28Z axion: Thank you
2017-07-09T16:26:37Z _death: or (member t nil)
2017-07-09T16:27:13Z drmeister: Jupyter widgets have a mechanism to update slots in the python backend/kernel when the user manipulates widgets in the browser.
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2017-07-09T16:27:42Z drmeister: It also has a mechanism to send update messages to the browser to update widgets when the programmer changes slot values of widgets in the backend/kernel.
2017-07-09T16:27:49Z drmeister: I'm trying to replicate this machinery.
2017-07-09T16:28:24Z drmeister: One thing I need to do is NOT send messages to the browser when widget slots in the Common Lisp backend/kernel are first initialized by CLOS.
2017-07-09T16:29:25Z axion: Is this the same question as yesterday?
2017-07-09T16:29:47Z drmeister: I figure I can do this in (setf clos:slot-value-using-class)  by not sending messages to the browser when the slot value changes from being unbound to being set by a value.
2017-07-09T16:29:55Z drmeister: axion: Are you asking me?
2017-07-09T16:29:57Z axion: Yes
2017-07-09T16:30:30Z drmeister: Yes, related to the question from yesterday but I understand the problem a bit better and I'm providing more info.
2017-07-09T16:30:40Z axion: Ah, you got a few replies after your battery died.
2017-07-09T16:30:50Z _death: drmeister: what about slot-makunbound
2017-07-09T16:31:07Z drmeister: _death: Good point
2017-07-09T16:31:23Z drmeister: Checking back for responses from last night...
2017-07-09T16:31:42Z axion: drmeister: This project was also referenced if you haven't seen it: https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter
2017-07-09T16:32:01Z Bike: i think what i'd do is forget what python does, and skip fancy methods on s-v-u-c like that, and just have a "synchronize" function to call manually to send over the state
2017-07-09T16:33:14Z drmeister: I'd read them - what White_Flame suggested is sort of like what jupyter widgets uses to suppress messages to the browser that come from slot changes due to messages from the browser.
2017-07-09T16:33:21Z puchacz: hi - have we got a logging library with log files roll and maybe compression of old ones?
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2017-07-09T16:34:31Z axion: puchacz: log4cl has most of that
2017-07-09T16:34:34Z drmeister: What jupyter widgets actually does is when messages come from the browser it temporarily locks the slots (it keeps a list of slots that are locked) that are being changed due to the incoming message so that when they are changed no messages go out.
2017-07-09T16:34:57Z drmeister: I was going to implement the same thing.
2017-07-09T16:34:59Z axion: I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to patch for compression with salza2 or the like
2017-07-09T16:35:51Z Bike: oh, is that what it was? nothing to do with parallelism at all, huh.
2017-07-09T16:36:07Z drmeister: I was trying to figure out how to suppress messages when the widget is originally set up - that's why I suggested checking the bound/unbound state of the slot to figure out if it was being set for the first time.
2017-07-09T16:36:28Z puchacz: axion: thanks
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2017-07-09T16:37:05Z drmeister: Bike: That's what it looks like after reading the code several times.
2017-07-09T16:37:27Z drmeister: But making it thread safe is a good thing.
2017-07-09T16:37:29Z Bike: drmeister: dumb solution: around method on initialize instance
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2017-07-09T16:38:04Z Bike: like (let ((*send-updates* nil)) (call-next-method)) and then have (defmethod slot-value-using-class :after ... (when *send-updates* (update)))
2017-07-09T16:38:19Z drmeister: Bike: That actually sounds like a good solution.
2017-07-09T16:38:42Z semz: not sure if this belongs to #sbcl rather than #lisp, but do there exist musl binaries for SBCL?
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2017-07-09T16:52:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: drmeister: as far as your question about context-switching in evil-mode goes, I don't actually use many features of emacs that don't use evil-mode bindings, aside from customize.  However, my attitude is that evil-mode has a mode vi doesn't have: "emacs mode", which is indicated in the modeline by <E>
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2017-07-09T16:57:23Z drmeister: Ah
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2017-07-09T16:57:58Z drmeister: So you look for the <E> and then you have the emacs bindings.
2017-07-09T16:58:21Z PuercoPop: drmeister: Are you trying to implement a CL backend for jupyter notebooks?
2017-07-09T16:58:59Z drmeister: PuercoPop: There is already a cl backend called:   cl-jupyter.     We are extending it to support jupyter widgets.
2017-07-09T16:59:29Z drmeister: fiddlerwoaroof: Thank you.
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2017-07-09T17:01:20Z pjb: axion: the type boolean is defined as (member t nil).
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2017-07-09T17:01:22Z drmeister: Bike: It looks like the _property_lock is a dictionary that you load up with slot-name/value pairs and that suppresses messages to the browser for any slot/value changes that are in the dictionary.
2017-07-09T17:02:49Z PuercoPop: drmeister: yes, I was going to refer to it in case you weren't aware. I didn't know jupyter now supports interactive widgets, nice.
2017-07-09T17:02:53Z Bike: i see...
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2017-07-09T17:05:12Z axion: pjb: Thanks, I got that.
2017-07-09T17:05:17Z drmeister: PuercoPop: Yes - jupyter widgets are the bees knees.
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2017-07-09T17:08:07Z pjb: axion: just be sure to put the BOOLEAN clause _before_ the other types that may contain NIL or T, such as SYMBOL.
2017-07-09T17:09:10Z Bike: oh, i've messed that up a lot :(
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2017-07-09T17:11:17Z axion: pjb: Right, though there will not be any. This is an etypecase for GPU data types, so numbers and arrays of them.
2017-07-09T17:11:32Z drmeister: Bike: messed up what?
2017-07-09T17:12:29Z Bike: the nil/symbol thing pjb mentioned
2017-07-09T17:12:54Z Bike: (typecase x (symbol ...) (null ...) ...) "why isn't this working"
2017-07-09T17:12:55Z drmeister: Oh - ok - no problem then.  I was worried it was something to do with _property_lock
2017-07-09T17:13:03Z Bike: nah
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2017-07-09T17:15:08Z drmeister: Hey - I was thinking about TYPEQ.  It's really just about exposing all of the IsA relationship machinery that looks up the stamp and compares it to integer ranges.
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2017-07-09T17:15:31Z drmeister: Oh - back to #clasp
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2017-07-09T19:38:30Z Xach: ok
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2017-07-09T19:56:04Z stapler: hello all, what are the essential tools in the CL ecosystem? e.g. quicklisp, asdf, etc.
2017-07-09T19:56:23Z Cthulhux: emacs+slime
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2017-07-09T19:58:47Z Lowl3v3l: stapler: and a lisp implementation of your choice ;)
2017-07-09T20:00:34Z stapler: I think I understand the basics of lisp, but it'd be nice to actually, y'know, write something with it
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2017-07-09T20:02:31Z Lowl3v3l: stapler: then get a lisp implementation , set up emacs and slime ( or some other editor) and then go on :)
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2017-07-09T20:07:24Z |3b| would include something like paredit for maintaining paren balance as well
2017-07-09T20:08:05Z |3b|: also adds some convenient functions for rearranging lisp code
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2017-07-09T20:12:16Z attila_lendvai: ...and two weeks later, you can get to try evaluating your first lisp expression... :) (read: just hack away, and note the above recommendations for feeding further curiosity)
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2017-07-09T20:27:46Z puchacz: stapler: lisp of choice on linux seems to be sbcl these days
2017-07-09T20:27:52Z puchacz: (for the last 10 years)
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2017-07-09T20:34:30Z stapler: and on windows? :-)
2017-07-09T20:34:52Z Baggers: stapler: sbcl works great there too
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2017-07-09T20:39:57Z shka: i think that CCL is more suitable for novice, though
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2017-07-09T20:45:01Z Xach: shka: what makes it so?
2017-07-09T20:45:25Z shka: errors are easier to understand
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2017-07-09T20:48:47Z Baggers: shka: SBCL was the lisp I learned with, I dont recall errors being a problem, though I was occasionally amazed at what it had worked out was an issue. No proof of anything of course but my experience
2017-07-09T20:49:10Z shka: well, same here
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2017-07-09T20:49:31Z shka: but in retrospect, i wish i was using ccl more
2017-07-09T20:49:53Z Baggers: stapler: https://youtu.be/VnWVu8VVDbI?list=PL2VAYZE_4wRIoHsU5cEBIxCYcbHzy4Ypj this might help with getting set up on windows
2017-07-09T20:50:08Z stapler: thanks!
2017-07-09T20:50:16Z stapler: for sharing, and making the videos (I assume that's your channel)
2017-07-09T20:51:08Z Baggers: yup. thanks, hope it's useful
2017-07-09T20:51:20Z shka: moment
2017-07-09T20:51:36Z shka: Baggers: you are that 3D opengl stuff Baggers, aren't you?
2017-07-09T20:51:43Z Baggers: shka: yup
2017-07-09T20:51:49Z shka: i like your stuff
2017-07-09T20:51:53Z Baggers: thanks!
2017-07-09T20:52:51Z shka: since you are here
2017-07-09T20:53:10Z shka: what are your thoughts on vulkan api?
2017-07-09T20:53:13Z varjag: ccl shows me the source of a backtrace frame down to a sexpr, while sbcl highlights the whole function
2017-07-09T20:53:24Z varjag: but maybe that's my slime setup issue
2017-07-09T20:57:25Z Baggers: shka: vulkan is great if you know the architecture of your project well have squeezed all you can from GL. There are still ugly parts of the API but they are well know issues at least. I'm glad that they have both though, I won't be switching for a long time yet. DirectX12 and Metal have to be all things to all people which (I think) will make it a bit harder to giet into, however it seems DX has been slightly bette
2017-07-09T20:57:25Z Baggers: r at api in general, I've no real DX experience though so I may be talking out my arse. The prospect of SPIRV is also ace but I'm nowhere near the kind of skill level to use it well (so much more you need to take into account)
2017-07-09T20:57:59Z Baggers: varjag: that is pretty cool, I didnt realize that.
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2017-07-09T21:02:23Z shka: Baggers: thanks for answer
2017-07-09T21:02:27Z shka: have a good night
2017-07-09T21:02:41Z Baggers: goodnight
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2017-07-09T21:22:36Z p_l: Baggers: from what i heard, at least spirv will be common for both vulkan and opengl which is nice...
2017-07-09T21:23:28Z Baggers: p_l: yeah, they say they are just going to compiler glsl to spirv, which makes perfect sense
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2017-07-09T21:27:21Z p_l: also some GL/CL/Vulkan interop...
2017-07-09T21:30:29Z Baggers: super cool
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2017-07-09T21:38:01Z |3b|: there is already an extension to use spirv with GL, though looks like only available on recent nv/amd drivers so far
2017-07-09T21:38:54Z |3b|: also works with OpenCL, though lots of differences in what i supported between opencl and gl/vulkan
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2017-07-09T22:14:53Z p_l: https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter/blob/master/README.markdown
2017-07-09T22:15:15Z p_l: nice gateway drug to lisp? ;-)
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2017-07-09T22:29:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: stapler: you might try this https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
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2017-07-09T22:31:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera's stuff, in my experience, has always been very high-quality and well-documented.  So, I suspect that this might be a good way to get started on Windows, if you want to get going quickly
2017-07-09T22:32:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I played around with Atom's atom-slime plugin the other day: it seems to work pretty well, even if it doesn't expose all the goodies available in Emacs: I could see Atom+sbcl+a paredit-like plugin for atom being a nice environment for beginners.
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2017-07-09T22:32:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then, once you're comfortable with lisp, you could then focus on learning emacs ;)
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2017-07-09T22:55:02Z stapler: fiddlerwoaroof, ah, thanks
2017-07-09T22:55:17Z stapler: the whole environment & ecosystem is more confusing to me than the language itself
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2017-07-10T00:47:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: stapler: yeah, the learning curve is fairly steep, but I find the language itself quite nice
2017-07-10T00:47:57Z stapler: is the "ql:" in "ql:quickload" just by convention?
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2017-07-10T00:48:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's a package name
2017-07-10T00:48:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: packages have one primary name and then zero or more nicknames
2017-07-10T00:48:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: so, quicklisp is also called ql
2017-07-10T00:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can use the function PACKAGE-NICKNAMES to see a package's nicknames
2017-07-10T00:51:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g.: (package-nicknames :quicklisp) #| => ("QL" "QUICKLISP") |#
2017-07-10T00:51:22Z stapler: right, and if you're in package foo, you can call (bar:baz) to access the baz function in package bar, yes?
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2017-07-10T00:51:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2017-07-10T00:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: as long as baz is an exported function
2017-07-10T00:51:40Z stapler: right
2017-07-10T00:51:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: you can use :: to access non-exported functions/variables, but this shouldn't be done in real code
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2017-07-10T03:40:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-07-10T03:47:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Morning beach
2017-07-10T03:49:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Has anyone else run across a "class_addIvar failed" error when using CCL's objective-c bridge?
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2017-07-10T04:14:40Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2017-07-10T05:43:23Z nydel: good mornings to all
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2017-07-10T05:50:19Z beach: Hello nydel.
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2017-07-10T06:39:34Z drmeister: Jupyter widgets - in Common Lisp:   http://i.imgur.com/N9l8ANw.png
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2017-07-10T06:50:54Z jdz: drmeister: that does not seem to be related to https://twitter.com/cddadr/status/883321584546664448, does it?
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2017-07-10T06:52:42Z drmeister: jdz: What I'm doing is not related to Darkmatter.    Darkmatter looks cool and I'll investigate it when I get time.
2017-07-10T06:53:02Z drmeister: We are working on incorporating jupyter widgets into the cl-jupyter system.
2017-07-10T06:53:27Z jdz: Yes, cool stuff.
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2017-07-10T06:53:48Z jdz: Poor man's CLIM :)
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2017-07-10T06:56:53Z drmeister: Darkmatter looks more like a programming environment and IDE - very cool.
2017-07-10T06:57:45Z drmeister: cl-jupyter with jupyter widgets will be more for casual users to carry out interactive computations while defining a few functions.
2017-07-10T06:58:38Z drmeister: Has anyone tried Darkmatter?
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2017-07-10T07:02:41Z drmeister: I have a running docker version of cl-jupyter with widgets on dockerhub.com  drmeister/cando
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2017-07-10T07:04:14Z drmeister: It automatically starts up a jupyter notebook that you can connect to with your browser.  Instructions are here:  https://hub.docker.com/r/drmeister/cando/
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2017-07-10T07:22:01Z drmeister: I suggested to Eddie that he create a docker image of Darkmatter
2017-07-10T07:22:28Z beach: Wrong channel?
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2017-07-10T07:32:23Z p_l: beach: nope
2017-07-10T07:33:00Z shrdlu68: I'm wondering how to loop across the end nodes of a root structure that may keep growing.
2017-07-10T07:33:53Z loke`: shrdlu68: What structure?
2017-07-10T07:34:37Z shrdlu68: loke`: For example, a list with three element, each of which have three element...
2017-07-10T07:34:50Z shrdlu68: s/have/has
2017-07-10T07:34:55Z p_l: beach: https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter/blob/master/README.markdown <---- not as good as SLIME et al, but quite interesting addition
2017-07-10T07:35:24Z loke`: shrdlu68: Well, 1) Use a lock. 2) Use an immutable data structure
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2017-07-10T07:35:48Z shka: p_l: thanks, this looks nice
2017-07-10T07:38:14Z shrdlu68: loke`: Could you be more verbose? Not sure I understand.
2017-07-10T07:38:39Z loke`: shrdlu68: I'm not sure I can. Can you be more specific in your question?
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2017-07-10T07:40:20Z shrdlu68: I have a unary function that produces three outputs. I am calling it recursively with each of the results. So the first time I call it, I have three objects. Calling it again with each of the three objects produces 9 objects, and so on.
2017-07-10T07:41:03Z shrdlu68: So I need a data structure that can keep track of the resulting root structure.
2017-07-10T07:41:50Z shrdlu68: If it were a list, it would have 3 elements, each of which would have 3 elements, and so on.
2017-07-10T07:42:31Z loke`: shrdlu68: Do you need to remove objects? Rearrange?
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2017-07-10T07:43:34Z shrdlu68: loke`: Nope. I just keep appending child nodes.
2017-07-10T07:44:26Z loke`: shrdlu68: And you need a way to iterate over all the leaf nodes?
2017-07-10T07:44:49Z shrdlu68: loke`: Yes, the ones at the ends.
2017-07-10T07:45:00Z shrdlu68: The root is finite; some branches in the root lead to a dead end. But others have child nodes.
2017-07-10T07:45:24Z shrdlu68: So it's not a balanced tree/root.
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2017-07-10T07:48:36Z shrdlu68: It's a tree structure, really, but upside down.
2017-07-10T07:48:58Z shrdlu68: So anything that works for a tree will work for it.
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2017-07-10T07:51:59Z loke`: shrdlu68: Seems to me that all you want is a normal double-linked tree
2017-07-10T07:52:51Z loke`: I have a go-to implementation of red-black trees that I use whenever I have such requirement (even though it's probably overkill if you don't need to remove elements)
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2017-07-10T07:55:18Z shrdlu68: loke`: I'm beginning to see the possibilities. It doesn't seem as dizzyingly complex as it did at first.
2017-07-10T07:56:25Z loke`: shrdlu68: Often just explaining the problem helps in understanding it.
2017-07-10T07:56:28Z loke`: Glad to be of help :-)
2017-07-10T07:56:43Z shrdlu68: It's a ternary tree, which means the branches increase by an order of 3 at each level. 1->3->9->27
2017-07-10T07:56:48Z shrdlu68: loke`: Thanks
2017-07-10T08:01:35Z Zhivago: shrdlu: Do you want to modify the tree while iterating it?
2017-07-10T08:02:13Z shrdlu68: Zhivago: Only the remotest nodes (the end-nodes).
2017-07-10T08:03:15Z Zhivago: Then it should be possible to model it with a todo stack.
2017-07-10T08:04:25Z Zhivago: Pop the stack, if it's a branch, push its three children onto the stack, else do something.
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2017-07-10T08:05:27Z loke`: Zhivago: Isn't that assuming that elements are inserted in lexiograpic order?
2017-07-10T08:05:40Z shrdlu68: Zhivago: Do you have a link or something?
2017-07-10T08:06:04Z shrdlu68: Google isn't being very helpful.
2017-07-10T08:06:07Z Zhivago: It assumes that they're in an appropriate order -- which may be arbitrary.
2017-07-10T08:06:34Z Zhivago: It's just a stack of items todo. :)
2017-07-10T08:06:43Z Zhivago: Nothing interesting about it.
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2017-07-10T08:09:55Z Zhivago: You can switch between depth first and breadth first using this approach if you can predict the probability of a node's children being leaves.
2017-07-10T08:10:45Z Zhivago: Otherwise the naive approach ends up with a stack size of depth + 2.
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2017-07-10T08:11:28Z shrdlu68: Interestingly, the branches create simple codes(somewhat like Huffman trees), so I think I can keep track of where in the tree I am with simple codes. 00,01,01,10,11,12,20,21,22...
2017-07-10T08:11:42Z loke`: shrdlu68: In a worst-case scenario, how many elements will you have in this datastructure?
2017-07-10T08:13:54Z shrdlu68: loke`: That's determined by the function that takes one object and either returns it as it is or 3 element in its place, which depends on the input data.
2017-07-10T08:14:19Z shrdlu68: I don't know at this point how deep the roots will run.
2017-07-10T08:15:57Z shrdlu68: It's sort of a fitness computation. As long as an object is determined to be fit by the function, it will be replaced by three children.
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2017-07-10T11:01:10Z mrcom_: minion: memo for deba5e12: Pretty sure cffi doesn't trap any io. Would guess it's the c library you're calling. What is it, and what Lisp are you using?
2017-07-10T11:01:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell deba5e12 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-07-10T14:43:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu68: if the objects are unique (i.e. (NOT (EQL))) you could just use a flat hash-table of parent => children + a list of root nodes.
2017-07-10T14:43:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or just a reference to the root node, I guess, if you have a tree)
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2017-07-10T16:15:42Z beach: So can (LET ((x1 f1) ... (xn fn)) ...) always be rewritten as ((lambda (x1 ... xn) ...) f1 ... fn), no matter what the LET body looks like?
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2017-07-10T16:16:03Z beach: ... including declarations and such.
2017-07-10T16:17:11Z jackdaniel: that's what I've read in a few places (LiSP included)
2017-07-10T16:18:16Z beach: Sounds right.
2017-07-10T16:18:45Z beach: I don't trust LiSP in this case, because he may very well simplify things for pedagogical reasons.
2017-07-10T16:19:06Z jackdaniel: I think it was a strong assertion
2017-07-10T16:19:17Z beach: OK, Good!
2017-07-10T16:19:32Z jackdaniel: I doubt he would put a simplified thing in such words (which I don't fully remember :)
2017-07-10T16:19:56Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean.
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2017-07-10T16:34:52Z beach: Under normal circumstances I might hesitate to make such a transformation in the compiler, because the more transformations, the more cryptic the error messages will seem when things go wrong.
2017-07-10T16:34:56Z beach: However, this is part of transforming concrete syntax trees to abstract syntax trees, with source tracking preserved.  I am therefore thinking that error messages will be reported relative to the location in the source code, so that the programmer does not have to decipher messages that display transformed code.
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2017-07-10T19:43:59Z drmeister: mop slot-value-using-class
2017-07-10T19:43:59Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html
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2017-07-10T21:13:47Z tetero: Are there any modern attempts at a lisp machine? Either real or "pseudo"? I read a bit about PilMCU
2017-07-10T21:14:02Z angerTr0n: lisp machines are dead
2017-07-10T21:14:17Z random-nick: the closes thing is that lispos that runs on x86
2017-07-10T21:14:51Z tetero: Aye. I saw that. I'm mostly interested from a hobbyist point of view
2017-07-10T21:16:01Z angerTr0n: lispworks
2017-07-10T21:17:29Z tetero: angerTr0n: There's a hw implementation of lispworks?
2017-07-10T21:17:42Z angerTr0n: > PilMCU
2017-07-10T21:17:54Z angerTr0n: you consider a microcontroller running code to be a hardware lispm?
2017-07-10T21:18:16Z tetero: angerTr0n: As I said "either real or pseudo"
2017-07-10T21:18:28Z angerTr0n: then lispworks is a psuedo lispm
2017-07-10T21:18:39Z tetero: It runs on a microcontroller?
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2017-07-10T21:19:39Z angerTr0n: sure; it runs on ARM64!
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2017-07-10T21:20:03Z angerTr0n: see what people don't get about lisp machines is, the hardware was a means to an end.
2017-07-10T21:20:21Z angerTr0n: unless you've built a true hardware stack machine, what's the point to the HW?
2017-07-10T21:20:37Z angerTr0n: the whole idea of the lisp machine was the richness of the environment
2017-07-10T21:20:59Z angerTr0n: a half assed lisp implementation running on a microcontroller has more in common with ... well, nothing ... than a lispm
2017-07-10T21:21:18Z angerTr0n: at the time, you needed hardware concessions to deliver that experience, that vision
2017-07-10T21:21:21Z angerTr0n: today you do not.
2017-07-10T21:21:47Z angerTr0n: If you want the real experience, go run the Explorer or Cadr emulator
2017-07-10T21:21:58Z angerTr0n: or run Genera / SNAP
2017-07-10T21:22:10Z angerTr0n: if you don't, use the plethora of other available options
2017-07-10T21:22:16Z tetero: angerTr0n: I don't colloquially consider ARM64 to be a microcontroller, but I can't say you're wrong. I am mostly interested in a "lisp machine" (with the quotes) from a hobbyist sort of view, it doesn't have to be a 'true' lisp machine so to speak
2017-07-10T21:22:39Z angerTr0n: then write your own interpreter :)
2017-07-10T21:22:54Z angerTr0n: I am working on one for the 8086 / GRiD Compass platform
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2017-07-10T21:23:25Z angerTr0n: which certainly is closer to "microcontroller" territory than ARM64
2017-07-10T21:24:39Z Bike: i mean if "lisp machine" means "hardware with instructions for using tags" then like is it a huge deal
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2017-07-10T21:24:59Z angerTr0n: Bike: hardware /stack machine/ with instructions for using tags
2017-07-10T21:25:07Z tetero: angerTr0n: Aye. That'd be a lot of fun to play around with. I'd love to write an interpreter for it, but I'm quite new to Lisp. I really like it, it feels like the language that doesn't leave me annoyed, but I've still got a lot to learn to say the least
2017-07-10T21:25:09Z angerTr0n: but that doesn't sound like what tetero is after
2017-07-10T21:25:40Z angerTr0n: lisp machine means different things to different people
2017-07-10T21:25:42Z tetero: I'd love a real lisp machine, but since it's 2017 I'd settle, basically.
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2017-07-10T21:25:52Z angerTr0n: you don't want a lisp machine
2017-07-10T21:25:56Z angerTr0n: a "real" lisp machine
2017-07-10T21:25:59Z angerTr0n: I have 13 of them
2017-07-10T21:26:01Z tetero: No?
2017-07-10T21:26:09Z Bike: well, what do you want? specifically?
2017-07-10T21:26:21Z angerTr0n: I collect #bigshit, this isn't my first rodeo. they're the most awful systems to keep running
2017-07-10T21:26:23Z Bike: what aspects of the lisp machine interest you
2017-07-10T21:26:30Z angerTr0n: Bike: right, that's still not clear
2017-07-10T21:26:38Z tetero: I'd like to play with some kind of hardware implemented lisp
2017-07-10T21:26:41Z angerTr0n: CPU implementation? Environment?
2017-07-10T21:26:53Z tetero: As I've never used any arch that has an implemented language before
2017-07-10T21:26:54Z angerTr0n: tetero: you and I have different ideas of what "hardware implemented lisp" means
2017-07-10T21:27:07Z angerTr0n: also you have no idea what you're talking about
2017-07-10T21:27:09Z Bike: modern lisp implementations compile to machine code
2017-07-10T21:27:13Z angerTr0n: no lisp machines ran lisp in hardware
2017-07-10T21:27:18Z tetero: angerTr0n: Yeah? I'm sure a lot of that has to do with my not being very well versed in what a lisp machine really entails aside from the surface ofi t
2017-07-10T21:27:32Z tetero: angerTr0n: They didn't?
2017-07-10T21:27:36Z angerTr0n: no.
2017-07-10T21:27:43Z Bike: lisp is kind of complicated for that
2017-07-10T21:27:57Z Bike: you don't need, like, an integrated circuit to handle the formatted printer :p
2017-07-10T21:27:59Z tetero: So there was some software component, even on real lisp machines?
2017-07-10T21:28:09Z angerTr0n: How can you say you "want" a real lisp machine, and not know how they work. sorry, this is something that bugs me. So many people "want a lispm" and have no idea what they consist of
2017-07-10T21:28:09Z Bike: uh... yeah
2017-07-10T21:28:18Z Bike: you thought otherwise? i'm curious how you figured that.
2017-07-10T21:28:30Z tetero: That was poorly phrased.
2017-07-10T21:28:49Z Bike: take your time
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2017-07-10T21:29:25Z tetero: What I should've said was 'So lisp was running in software, like it does on my computers, even on a lisp machine?'
2017-07-10T21:29:38Z angerTr0n: lisp machines implement an ISA just like every other chip out there. There are compilers. Lisp is compiled into machine code. The CPU runs machine code
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2017-07-10T21:29:42Z angerTr0n: yes, even on a lisp machine
2017-07-10T21:29:48Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean by "running in software" in this point, honestly
2017-07-10T21:29:52Z tetero: Ah.
2017-07-10T21:30:07Z Bike: i mean, if you have your boring x86 machine, and you write a C program as per unix norms, that still gets compiled, it's not like the hardware "runs C"
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2017-07-10T21:30:18Z tetero: Bike: You can probably just nevermind it, I'm not well versed in this, and I'm likely making mistakes and assumptions regarding this that's unnecessarily confusing
2017-07-10T21:30:27Z angerTr0n: that ISA has concessions for lisp-y things, and was designed to make lisp run quickly on the hardware of the day, but you could implement other compilers too
2017-07-10T21:30:30Z Bike: kay. it's cool.
2017-07-10T21:31:03Z tetero: Yeah I know that hardware doesn't run C. But I wasn't around when lisp machines existed, and I somehow got the impression that the language itself is implemented on a hardware level
2017-07-10T21:31:15Z angerTr0n: tetero: just careful when you say you want a lisp machine. It would be like if I went into a gallery saying "I want to buy a real monet," and not know the slightest thing about them
2017-07-10T21:31:27Z tetero: angerTr0n: Good point
2017-07-10T21:31:42Z angerTr0n: And I wasn't around when they existed either.
2017-07-10T21:31:56Z Bike: the lisp machine ISA had some things that made implementing lisp easier than other contemporary machines, but i don't know the details
2017-07-10T21:32:00Z tetero: To turn this around into something less confusing, how do you lisp machines work angerTr0n?
2017-07-10T21:32:18Z tetero: your*
2017-07-10T21:32:24Z angerTr0n: at the core, most were machines with no general purpose registers. They were true stack machines
2017-07-10T21:32:31Z Bike: you can look at something like http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html "ultimate opcode" that has a genuinely different processor organization, but there'd still be software
2017-07-10T21:32:55Z angerTr0n: note, I don't count like, Xerox 1186 as real lisp machines
2017-07-10T21:33:11Z angerTr0n: Although I did restore one recently
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2017-07-10T21:34:15Z angerTr0n: anyway, in actuality, how my lisp machines work is: Poorly! They're complicated beasts with an obscenely high failure rate. They pushed the physical limits of what was possible with the tech available, and they're near impossible to keep running.
2017-07-10T21:34:58Z White_Flame: what was their resilience like back when they were new?  did they constantly need service contract attention to keep them running, or were they reliable?
2017-07-10T21:35:05Z tetero: Oh. So lisp machines architecture were designed to be conducive to lisp rather than implementing the entire language on silicon?
2017-07-10T21:35:14Z angerTr0n: White_Flame: they were awful then too
2017-07-10T21:35:22Z angerTr0n: White_Flame: I have photos of facilities in the 80s
2017-07-10T21:35:25Z angerTr0n: you can see covers removed
2017-07-10T21:35:29Z angerTr0n: boards pulled out
2017-07-10T21:35:30Z angerTr0n: etc
2017-07-10T21:35:33Z White_Flame: heh
2017-07-10T21:35:43Z angerTr0n: none of the console lids appear to be screwed down
2017-07-10T21:35:49Z angerTr0n: afaik they have always been tempermental
2017-07-10T21:35:51Z tetero: angerTr0n: I didn't know they had a high failure rate
2017-07-10T21:36:02Z angerTr0n: few people know much of anything tetero
2017-07-10T21:36:11Z angerTr0n: information is thin on the ground
2017-07-10T21:36:48Z White_Flame: but yeah, as has been said above, their advantage was the environment that was fully Lisp
2017-07-10T21:36:50Z Bike: tetero: yeah, again, like, if you ever give silicon design a shot, implementing a high level language is just... not even a good idea really
2017-07-10T21:37:13Z White_Flame: and that environment can be literally achieved (genera emulation), poorly achieved (emacs lol), or re-researched (mezzano)
2017-07-10T21:37:27Z tetero: Bike: I was wondering a lot about that! I don't know all that much about architectures, but I was wondering how exactly implementing a high level language worked for that
2017-07-10T21:37:35Z angerTr0n: take a look at brad's site
2017-07-10T21:37:41Z angerTr0n: http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Mit
2017-07-10T21:37:43Z Bike: you said you were new to lisp, but you presumably know some kind of programming, and any language you know probably has some structures that would just be difficult
2017-07-10T21:37:56Z angerTr0n: if you want to know how the Explorer, Bolix, etc. worked
2017-07-10T21:37:59Z tetero: Bike: Aye.
2017-07-10T21:38:01Z angerTr0n: look at the CADR "macrocode"
2017-07-10T21:38:06Z angerTr0n: macrocode refers to the ISA
2017-07-10T21:38:18Z angerTr0n: contrast to microcode, which 'wires' the CPU to consume the ISA
2017-07-10T21:38:36Z White_Flame: It would probably be useful to first learn lisp well enough to read dissassemblies of your functions, to see how those features are implemented, to have something a bit more familiar to relate all this info to
2017-07-10T21:38:45Z angerTr0n: White_Flame++
2017-07-10T21:38:55Z Bike: that seems like it got weird sometimes. my arch professor in school said he implemented binary search in microcode on a vax. like, why even have that as an instruction
2017-07-10T21:39:08Z tetero: angerTr0n: That's really interesting!
2017-07-10T21:39:08Z White_Flame: then you can consider what silicon might bring to the assembly-level implementation
2017-07-10T21:39:26Z angerTr0n: Bike: machines with writable microcode could let you do very silly things
2017-07-10T21:39:27Z angerTr0n: :)
2017-07-10T21:39:34Z angerTr0n: the later vaxes didn't have this functionality
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2017-07-10T21:39:40Z Bike: and of course there was already an 'evaluate polynomial' instruction, and that's basically just a MAD loop
2017-07-10T21:39:45Z angerTr0n: heh
2017-07-10T21:39:47Z angerTr0n: yep
2017-07-10T21:39:49Z angerTr0n: well
2017-07-10T21:39:54Z angerTr0n: depends on the VAX implementation
2017-07-10T21:40:04Z angerTr0n: on the CVAX / NVAX it unrolled to an obscene loop
2017-07-10T21:40:09Z angerTr0n: earlier ones had more HW assist
2017-07-10T21:40:17Z Bike: obscenity sounds promising
2017-07-10T21:40:27Z tetero: angerTr0n: Just a general disclaimer, a lot of the things you're talking about now are above my head. I'm reading and trying to learn from it, but just don't expect me to just get it. Thanks a lot for taking the time to explaining it though :-)
2017-07-10T21:40:35Z angerTr0n: I have an 11/750 VAX in my garage
2017-07-10T21:40:41Z angerTr0n: it's got the writeable control store
2017-07-10T21:40:47Z angerTr0n: I should bastardize the microcode sometime
2017-07-10T21:41:00Z tetero: Got any pics of your machines angerTr0n?
2017-07-10T21:41:08Z angerTr0n: the 36XX lispm had writeable microcode too but I don't think the docs on how to extend it got released
2017-07-10T21:41:28Z Bike: part of my professor's story was that to write this instruction he had to jack an internals manual from a repair technician
2017-07-10T21:41:35Z angerTr0n: tetero: I removed all LISPM pictures from my instagram because it was generating a lot of interest in obtaining hardware from people who were wholly unqualified to repair it
2017-07-10T21:41:45Z angerTr0n: that's why I'm a little defensive about people stating they "want" lisp machines
2017-07-10T21:42:03Z tetero: Ah. I understand.
2017-07-10T21:42:19Z shka_: i just want symbolics style keyboard
2017-07-10T21:42:22Z angerTr0n: I've spend many thousands of hours, travelled many thousands of miles, and spent many thousands of dollars restoring my LISP machines, so it frustrated me when my instagram generated renewed interest from people
2017-07-10T21:42:25Z tetero: shka_: What's that?
2017-07-10T21:42:27Z angerTr0n: see shka_ that's just as awful
2017-07-10T21:42:32Z angerTr0n: it's so hard to find keyboards
2017-07-10T21:42:37Z angerTr0n: people like you poached them all
2017-07-10T21:42:37Z Bike: probably cheaper, though
2017-07-10T21:42:38Z shka_: angerTr0n: not original
2017-07-10T21:42:40Z angerTr0n: ah
2017-07-10T21:42:42Z angerTr0n: well
2017-07-10T21:42:43Z shka_: just good looking copy
2017-07-10T21:42:45Z angerTr0n: I can respect that :)
2017-07-10T21:42:51Z angerTr0n: we should work on one
2017-07-10T21:42:58Z angerTr0n: I have mechanical drawings somewhere
2017-07-10T21:42:59Z angerTr0n: anyway
2017-07-10T21:43:00Z shka_: just because it was looking awesome
2017-07-10T21:43:02Z angerTr0n: my instagram is
2017-07-10T21:43:05Z angerTr0n is now known as trinitr0n
2017-07-10T21:43:15Z trinitr0n: http://instagram.com/tr1nitr0n
2017-07-10T21:43:18Z shka_: like seriously, perhaps the most elegant keyboard ever
2017-07-10T21:43:21Z Bike: tetero: anyway, if you want to understand, a good step might be to write a lisp interpreter. just a basic one, read SICP and stuff.
2017-07-10T21:43:25Z trinitr0n: there are pics there of some of my non-lisp hardware
2017-07-10T21:43:35Z trinitr0n: all the lisp stuff has been taken down for aforementioned reasons
2017-07-10T21:43:38Z Bike: that obviously wont include hardware considerations, but you probably don't actually want to learn/use verilog, at least at first
2017-07-10T21:43:48Z trinitr0n: "I restored a SparcStation so, I'm qualified to maintain a symbolics"
2017-07-10T21:43:52Z trinitr0n:  /s
2017-07-10T21:43:58Z trinitr0n: (actual message I got)
2017-07-10T21:43:58Z tetero: Bike: I'll try to do that, but just keep in mind that I'm still learning the lisp paradigm and that it might take a while
2017-07-10T21:44:24Z Bike: i'm not exactly on a time crunch here, heh
2017-07-10T21:44:38Z Bike: but it's surprisingly easy, a really basic interpreter is like a page
2017-07-10T21:44:50Z tetero: trinitr0n: nice
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2017-07-10T21:45:08Z Bike: a more hardware amenable vm and a basic compiler for it could be, iunno, five pages
2017-07-10T21:45:16Z foom: modern x86 implementations also have writable microcode
2017-07-10T21:45:20Z tetero: Bike: Really? I've noticed that some things, in lisp, are much easier to implement than I would've thought (based on experience in other languages)
2017-07-10T21:45:20Z foom: just...not for *you* to write
2017-07-10T21:45:25Z trinitr0n: foom: correct ;)
2017-07-10T21:45:36Z Bike: tetero: it seems to surprise people!
2017-07-10T21:45:37Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2017-07-10T21:45:41Z tetero: Bike: It really does
2017-07-10T21:45:41Z trinitr0n: foom: for the chinese government to write :D
2017-07-10T21:45:46Z Bike: "oh, a language implementation, that must take a lot of work" naw
2017-07-10T21:45:54Z Bike: i mean a really good one, sure
2017-07-10T21:46:09Z tetero: Bike: I'm not sure how to explain it. At the same time Lisp seems to be steep in terms of *knowing* it, it seems to be much easier as well, does that make sense?
2017-07-10T21:46:13Z trinitr0n: yeah lisp is a pretty easy thing to get running, and a hard thing to get running well
2017-07-10T21:46:15Z foom: Well, we hope it's only for intel to write, and that they take good care of the signing keys. (for intel chips)
2017-07-10T21:46:22Z Bike: not to me, but i probably don't need to know
2017-07-10T21:46:25Z trinitr0n: foom: of course, I'm kidding
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2017-07-10T21:47:26Z Bike: it's like, you know, you take a basic Fundamentals of Computinators class and learn lambda calculus, but maybe it still seems like a strange math thing instead of a programming language you can implement in ten minutes
2017-07-10T21:47:34Z tetero: Bike: Either way, what matters is that I enjoy writing Lisp, even though it's not quality Lisp so far. I never feel as though the language is working against me, or constraining me, I just feel as though I'm constrained by my own knowledge, which is awesome.
2017-07-10T21:47:50Z tetero: Bike: I'm fine with maths :-)
2017-07-10T21:47:54Z Bike: that's cool.
2017-07-10T21:48:01Z tetero: I'm into physics
2017-07-10T21:48:08Z trinitr0n: anyway, I no longer have any Lisp Machine pics on social media, but I have restored a Symbolics 3620, 3630, 3640, 3650, XL400, XL1200, MacIvory 2 and a Xerox 1186
2017-07-10T21:48:14Z Bike: (that was a general "you", not you specifically)
2017-07-10T21:48:18Z trinitr0n: you can google those models if you're curious
2017-07-10T21:48:23Z tetero: Bike: Yeah I understood
2017-07-10T21:48:58Z trinitr0n: of course, the Xerox is an inferior west-coast lispm
2017-07-10T21:49:23Z Bike: unfortunately if you do want to try hardware design the language will, in fact, work against you (though migen looks a little better than verilog or vhdl)
2017-07-10T21:49:41Z trinitr0n writes his best Verilog while drunk
2017-07-10T21:50:00Z Bike: i write my worst verilog while drunk, but it's all basically the same quality so it works
2017-07-10T21:50:34Z vtomole: When would i use a compiler macro?
2017-07-10T21:50:57Z Bike: not often
2017-07-10T21:51:17Z Bike: when you have some optimization for a function that you can apply at source level that isn't covered by inlining and letting the compiler do it
2017-07-10T21:52:28Z tetero: trinitr0n: Ha. I associate the term 'west coast' heavily with 'west coast modular synthesis' :)
2017-07-10T21:52:58Z tetero: Bike: I suppose that makes sense
2017-07-10T21:53:16Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2017-07-10T21:53:42Z Bike: oh, do you do music stuff? "patch" based things like max/msp offer an interesting alternate hardware organization for computers
2017-07-10T21:54:00Z Bike: (when i use scare quotes like that it's because i do not do music stuff)
2017-07-10T21:54:02Z tetero: Bike: Yeah! I used max/msp before building a real analog modular synth :-)
2017-07-10T21:54:16Z tetero: Bike: max/msp is great. I used another one before that, I think it was called Buzz or some such
2017-07-10T21:54:58Z tetero: Bike: There's even a max/msp plugin for my ADAT-module for my modular synth so you can output CV from max
2017-07-10T21:55:06Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2017-07-10T21:55:07Z trinitr0n has PTSD flashbacks of LabView
2017-07-10T21:55:25Z Bike: tragical
2017-07-10T21:55:29Z trinitr0n self-terminates
2017-07-10T21:56:19Z tetero: trinitr0n: Is it just that small monitor or does Doom look better on that machine than I recall it?
2017-07-10T21:56:32Z trinitr0n: it's all about nice CRTs
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2017-07-10T21:57:11Z tetero: Might be :)
2017-07-10T21:57:20Z tetero: trinitr0n: lol @ "UNIX is stupid and considered harmful"
2017-07-10T21:57:25Z tetero: cat? :)
2017-07-10T21:57:37Z trinitr0n: unix /is/ stupid!
2017-07-10T21:59:18Z tetero: trinitr0n: I meant, it's in reference to the rob pike presentation right?
2017-07-10T21:59:46Z trinitr0n: no, I hate rob pike. He developed that stupid BLiT thing in one of my pictures- the most asstastic mess of UNIX ideology ever produced
2017-07-10T21:59:56Z trinitr0n: programming the BLiT makes me want to die.
2017-07-10T22:00:25Z tetero: trinitr0n: BLiT? I have never even heard of that
2017-07-10T22:00:27Z trinitr0n: it's in reference to UNIX being bad and detrimental to overall progress in the field of operating systems
2017-07-10T22:00:58Z trinitr0n: it's such a pervasive common denominator, it probably set us back a decade or more
2017-07-10T22:01:13Z trinitr0n: unless you really dig C and bags of bytes
2017-07-10T22:01:23Z trinitr0n: then again, don't listen to me, I'm an opinionated ass
2017-07-10T22:02:36Z tetero: trinitr0n: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_Harmful - I thought it was in reference to this (it really fits) | as for you being opinionated, I love that, and you're far from an ass, strong opinions that differ from the norm is, to me, having an opinion in the first place.
2017-07-10T22:03:02Z White_Flame: I won't listen to you, I'll just re-read my own rants about how Unix sucks, text streams are a terrible communication substrate for machines, heirarchy is not a good global storage model, coarse rigid permission granularity sucks, etc
2017-07-10T22:03:08Z dTal: Ech, it's unfair to blame that on Unix - *any* common platform would have stagnated
2017-07-10T22:03:26Z tetero: What of Plan9 / Inferno etc?
2017-07-10T22:06:00Z vtomole: Bike: I'm slowly learning how to write compilers. Learning a language for a backend will take a lot of time. What should one consider when trying to choose a backend? Why should I learn x86-64 or arm when i should learn llvm ir and cover all achitectures? Or why not compile to a language i know like C?
2017-07-10T22:06:02Z dTal: Besides, anyone who claims that this or that "set back the field", they need to say relative to what :)
2017-07-10T22:06:24Z Bike: vtomole: why not indeed, those are good options
2017-07-10T22:06:52Z Bike: i mean, if you want to learn to do a code generator, it's definitely easier to start with something like that
2017-07-10T22:07:21Z Bike: that said it would probably be good to learn at least one actual processor architecture to give you some idea of how things work under a hood
2017-07-10T22:07:25Z Bike: but you can do that later
2017-07-10T22:07:46Z vtomole: Bike: What do you suggest i start with?
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2017-07-10T22:08:36Z Bike: i guess i would whip up a VM definition and a quick interpreter, and compile to that
2017-07-10T22:08:43Z Bike: something simple like a stack machine
2017-07-10T22:09:14Z Bike: llvm ir means learning the llvm interfaces which are... sometimes not great, and C means dealing with C which is C
2017-07-10T22:10:15Z vtomole: Bike: I went through Norvig's compiler and i still don't fully understand how a stack machine works.
2017-07-10T22:12:33Z vtomole: How are 6-7 ops codes capable of executing so many diffrent lisp expressions?
2017-07-10T22:13:32Z Bike: do you know, like, turing machine stuff? computers can be very simple
2017-07-10T22:13:52Z Bike: you can have a machine with only one instruction, decrement and jump if zero i think is one
2017-07-10T22:14:25Z Bike: brb
2017-07-10T22:14:48Z vtomole: OK
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2017-07-10T22:25:26Z trinitr0n: dTal: a fair enough argument
2017-07-10T22:25:37Z trinitr0n: 22:03 < dTal> Besides, anyone who claims that this or that "set back the field", they need to say relative to what :)
2017-07-10T22:26:00Z trinitr0n: "i just know it did, okay?"
2017-07-10T22:27:09Z trinitr0n: however, unix still sucks xD
2017-07-10T22:29:19Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2017-07-10T22:29:40Z tetero: trinitr0n: Exactly how do you think Unix sucks?
2017-07-10T22:29:47Z trinitr0n: http://simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf
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2017-07-10T22:32:12Z tetero: "Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. I don't think that's a coincidence." that's not even factual ^^
2017-07-10T22:33:26Z trinitr0n: a cheap shot; there's nothing wrong with LSD
2017-07-10T22:33:35Z trinitr0n: UNIX on the other hand...
2017-07-10T22:33:51Z tetero: BSD, which I'm assuming they're referring to, isn't actually Unix, but a Unix-like clone made at Berkeley whereas Unix was made by Bell Labs
2017-07-10T22:34:02Z tetero: I've never tried LSD, but I'd like to.
2017-07-10T22:34:12Z trinitr0n: BSD was the predominant UNIX of the 80s
2017-07-10T22:34:18Z trinitr0n: and 90s
2017-07-10T22:34:19Z tetero: BSD was never Unix
2017-07-10T22:34:22Z trinitr0n: when this was written
2017-07-10T22:34:23Z tetero: and also, it's Unix, not UNIX :)
2017-07-10T22:34:32Z trinitr0n: eh, it really was
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2017-07-10T22:34:41Z tetero: Nope.
2017-07-10T22:34:42Z trinitr0n: like, I don't care about precision here
2017-07-10T22:34:45Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2017-07-10T22:34:54Z trinitr0n: nor did Sun when they called the Sun2 a unix workstation
2017-07-10T22:35:06Z tetero: In order to be Unix you need to be certified Unix
2017-07-10T22:35:07Z trinitr0n: or the various groups that marketed BSD 4.2 services on VAX
2017-07-10T22:35:11Z tetero: Like, ironically, MacOSX is today
2017-07-10T22:35:13Z trinitr0n: jesus christ kid
2017-07-10T22:35:17Z trinitr0n: get in the headspace
2017-07-10T22:35:31Z trinitr0n: this is talking about VAXes and Sun 2s
2017-07-10T22:35:38Z trinitr0n: no one gave a fuck what Unix(TM) was
2017-07-10T22:35:41Z tetero: I wasn't around back then!
2017-07-10T22:35:45Z trinitr0n: NEITHER WAS I
2017-07-10T22:35:57Z tetero: So neither of us knows anything :D
2017-07-10T22:36:09Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-07-10T22:36:11Z trinitr0n: Most people consider a Sun 2 a 'unix' workstation
2017-07-10T22:36:22Z trinitr0n: most people consider a VAX running BSD 4.2 to be a 'unix' system
2017-07-10T22:36:36Z trinitr0n: most people consider a RIDGE supermini running RidgeIX to be a 'unix' box
2017-07-10T22:36:38Z tetero: trinitr0n: But they aren't!
2017-07-10T22:36:41Z trinitr0n: these are all BSD offshoots
2017-07-10T22:36:56Z tetero: trinitr0n: But anyways, getting past the semantics and Unix vs Unix-like etc. This pdf seems worth reading
2017-07-10T22:37:03Z trinitr0n: referring each time as "unix-like" gets really old, dude
2017-07-10T22:37:07Z tetero: Yeah I know
2017-07-10T22:37:12Z tetero: I'm just an old bsd-user ;P
2017-07-10T22:37:16Z trinitr0n: no one ran proper unix in the 80s
2017-07-10T22:37:22Z trinitr0n: Unix(TM)
2017-07-10T22:37:39Z tetero: They did.. but ok :)
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2017-07-10T22:37:48Z trinitr0n: the BSD derived stuff was what most people had exposure to
2017-07-10T22:37:53Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2017-07-10T22:37:55Z trinitr0n: BSD > Ultrix on VAX
2017-07-10T22:38:04Z trinitr0n: BSD is what shipped on the Sun systems
2017-07-10T22:38:05Z trinitr0n: etc
2017-07-10T22:38:14Z trinitr0n: right there is like 50% of your market
2017-07-10T22:38:23Z tetero: trinitr0n: Let's just agree that Microsoft's Xenix was the best ever Unix
2017-07-10T22:38:27Z tetero: ;p
2017-07-10T22:38:52Z tetero: trinitr0n: Sun shipped BSD? I wasn't aware of that
2017-07-10T22:39:18Z Cthulhux: depends
2017-07-10T22:39:29Z trinitr0n: SunOS 1 and 2 were almost pure BSD 4.2
2017-07-10T22:39:33Z Cthulhux: solaris probably incorporates quite some BSD code
2017-07-10T22:39:35Z trinitr0n: given the content of the unix hater's handbook
2017-07-10T22:39:48Z trinitr0n: that's the sort of thing they were gunning against
2017-07-10T22:40:27Z trinitr0n: side note: I have a 1983 Sun-2 / 120 running SunOS 2 and it is pure unadulterated garbage
2017-07-10T22:40:29Z tetero: Interesting. I only ever used SunOS (or rather Solaris at that point) in -04 when Sun was deteriorating
2017-07-10T22:40:36Z Cthulhux:  <tetero> BSD, which I'm assuming they're referring to, isn't actually Unix, but a Unix-like clone << BSD is a distribution of unix. debian is not a linux clone either
2017-07-10T22:40:44Z Cthulhux sighs 
2017-07-10T22:41:07Z tetero: Cthulhux: BSD isn't, and has never been to my knowledge, certified Unix
2017-07-10T22:41:07Z trinitr0n: yeah like, quite arguing about what amounts to trademarks
2017-07-10T22:41:12Z trinitr0n: *quit
2017-07-10T22:41:24Z trinitr0n: BRB doing market research in my time machine
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2017-07-10T22:41:39Z Cthulhux: tetero, nobody talked about "certified unix" here. 1BSD and 2BSD were mostly "bell unix plus extra tools"
2017-07-10T22:41:42Z trinitr0n: ah turns out 0% of people give >0 fucks about certified unix
2017-07-10T22:41:48Z Cthulhux: = distro = "a real unix"
2017-07-10T22:42:00Z trinitr0n: good thing I have this time machine to do 1980s market research with huh Cthulhux
2017-07-10T22:42:05Z tetero: Ah. Then we have differing definitions.
2017-07-10T22:42:13Z trinitr0n: tetero: your definition is bad
2017-07-10T22:42:18Z Merv_ joined #lisp
2017-07-10T22:42:18Z trinitr0n: (and you should feel bad)
2017-07-10T22:42:22Z tetero: My definition is exactly defined
2017-07-10T22:42:22Z trinitr0n: is what we're saying here.
2017-07-10T22:42:24Z Cthulhux: there is even a linux distribution which is a "certified unix"
2017-07-10T22:42:29Z Cthulhux: k/ux or so
2017-07-10T22:42:31Z Cthulhux: bullshit
2017-07-10T22:42:40Z tetero: Cthulhux: OSX is certified unix these days. Ironically.
2017-07-10T22:42:41Z Bike: vtomole: but yeah, compiling means turning an algorithm with one set of operations to use (function calls, return-from, "numbers") into one with a different set (jump, bit patterns) that does the same thing, and is more amenable to being constructed out of vacuum tubes or whatever they make computers out of now
2017-07-10T22:42:58Z trinitr0n: your definition is a trademark cash grab one tetero. Cthulhux are going from technical lineage
2017-07-10T22:43:12Z Bike: so naturally the latter can be more... impoverished
2017-07-10T22:43:28Z tetero: trinitr0n: Fair enough.
2017-07-10T22:44:08Z Cthulhux: the only surviving "real unices" as of today are AIX, HP-UX and half-dead solaris
2017-07-10T22:44:16Z Cthulhux: sadly.
2017-07-10T22:44:25Z tetero: And OSX (counting certification) ;P
2017-07-10T22:44:33Z Cthulhux: tetero: SHOO!
2017-07-10T22:44:42Z tetero: Cthulhux: Okay, okay, I'm not even going to try and defend that one :D
2017-07-10T22:44:45Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: this kid...
2017-07-10T22:45:04Z Cthulhux: probably an apple customer :<
2017-07-10T22:45:41Z trinitr0n: Anyway, seeing as I have a running VAX 11/750 running BSD 4.2, a PDP 11/40 running ULTRIX, a pile of lisp machines, an AT&T 3B2 running SYS V, and that stupid Sun 2 all networked together
2017-07-10T22:45:50Z trinitr0n: I'm gonna use my definition of what Unix is.
2017-07-10T22:46:08Z trinitr0n: #sorrynotsorry
2017-07-10T22:46:16Z tetero: Not an apple customer.
2017-07-10T22:46:17Z Cthulhux: btw. the multics emulator 1.0 was released
2017-07-10T22:46:21Z holycow: trinitr0n: you have those physical machines?
2017-07-10T22:46:25Z Bike: use negative theology. we know GNU's Not Unix, so from there we can find more things unix isn't
2017-07-10T22:46:26Z trinitr0n: but we're way off topic here, sorry to the rest of the folk here
2017-07-10T22:46:32Z trinitr0n: holycow: yes
2017-07-10T22:46:36Z holycow: woooooo
2017-07-10T22:46:38Z holycow: *highfive*
2017-07-10T22:46:38Z tetero: Cthulhux: As for AIX, it's dead too
2017-07-10T22:46:53Z Cthulhux: tetero, it's still sold, advertised and supported.
2017-07-10T22:46:56Z trinitr0n: holycow: thx!
2017-07-10T22:47:01Z holycow: i have been enjoying videos of getting old machines up and running recently
2017-07-10T22:47:06Z holycow: i'm looking to get some lisp machiens my self
2017-07-10T22:47:09Z tetero: Cthulhux: Yeah, but IBM has switched to Linux
2017-07-10T22:47:14Z trinitr0n: eh, holycow, please don't
2017-07-10T22:47:18Z trinitr0n: they're really hard to keep running
2017-07-10T22:47:21Z tetero: Cthulhux: They're "maintaining it in the meantime"
2017-07-10T22:47:21Z Cthulhux: tetero, IBM has linux, z/OS (?) and AIX
2017-07-10T22:47:28Z Cthulhux: no "switch".
2017-07-10T22:47:29Z trinitr0n: they sound like a good idea but you will be in way over your head
2017-07-10T22:47:32Z trinitr0n: trust me
2017-07-10T22:47:36Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-07-10T22:47:47Z holycow: trinitr0n: *nod* i'm building in a budget to hire people to do that
2017-07-10T22:48:02Z trinitr0n: LOL who exactly do you expect to hire!
2017-07-10T22:48:02Z holycow: its a long term thing, not spur of the moment
2017-07-10T22:48:13Z holycow: eh, who knows :) there are people around
2017-07-10T22:48:21Z trinitr0n: no, there really truly aren't
2017-07-10T22:48:43Z tetero: Cthulhux: It's really old news: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2474897/ding-dong--aix-is-dead--ibm-doubles-down-on-linux--as-microsoft-gives-up-.html
2017-07-10T22:49:38Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2017-07-10T22:49:49Z holycow: ah here is the video, loved watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OQMhvArI9g
2017-07-10T22:49:53Z Cthulhux: tetero, we seem to have different perceptions of deatg as well
2017-07-10T22:50:00Z Cthulhux: anything else wrong with you?
2017-07-10T22:50:00Z holycow: the xerox alto really was amazing for it's time
2017-07-10T22:50:07Z Cthulhux: *death
2017-07-10T22:50:14Z tetero: Cthulhux: I don't think so seeing as you consider Solaris half-dead. AIX is in that same boat.
2017-07-10T22:50:19Z trinitr0n: oh god the alto restore team
2017-07-10T22:50:20Z Cthulhux: holycow, hey, the alto is alive. they have a http client for it!
2017-07-10T22:50:25Z tetero: Cthulhux: Look at when the latest release of AIX was
2017-07-10T22:50:27Z trinitr0n: those guys are... special
2017-07-10T22:50:28Z holycow: what? wow!
2017-07-10T22:50:37Z trinitr0n: also the alto is documented
2017-07-10T22:50:44Z trinitr0n: the lispm isn't
2017-07-10T22:50:48Z Cthulhux: tetero, solaris (one of the solaris...es) is officially developed (!) by oracle.
2017-07-10T22:51:09Z tetero: Cthulhux: Right, and the latest release of Solaris was released about the same time as the latest release of AIX
2017-07-10T22:51:36Z Cthulhux: tetero, AIX: last released 20 months ago. now how long has windows 10 been released? is windows dead? see!
2017-07-10T22:51:47Z tetero: Please.
2017-07-10T22:51:54Z Cthulhux: tetero, solaris is a "rolling release" now. at least that's what oracle said.
2017-07-10T22:51:58Z Cthulhux: no more "releases".
2017-07-10T22:52:03Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: Sauracle
2017-07-10T22:52:07Z tetero: Ha. "rolling release"
2017-07-10T22:52:26Z Cthulhux: trinitr0n, i deeply hate oracle for stomping sun.
2017-07-10T22:52:39Z Cthulhux: 'orrible :-)
2017-07-10T22:52:51Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: I may hate unix and sun, but I hate oracle for crushing a viable competitor
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2017-07-10T22:53:01Z Cthulhux: sun was ok
2017-07-10T22:53:02Z trinitr0n: cuz I hate commodity linux more hahahahaha
2017-07-10T22:53:10Z Cthulhux: sun was innovative
2017-07-10T22:53:10Z trinitr0n: far more
2017-07-10T22:53:15Z Cthulhux: minus the java part
2017-07-10T22:53:15Z trinitr0n: yup
2017-07-10T22:53:20Z Cthulhux: java was unncecessary
2017-07-10T22:53:23Z tetero: Solaris had DTrace and fault manager which were awesome
2017-07-10T22:53:34Z Cthulhux: sun also invented ZFS
2017-07-10T22:53:38Z tetero: yep
2017-07-10T22:53:39Z Cthulhux: and sparc
2017-07-10T22:53:43Z tetero: yep
2017-07-10T22:53:45Z Cthulhux: one of the things 'orrible killed
2017-07-10T22:53:46Z Cthulhux: :(
2017-07-10T22:53:47Z trinitr0n: sparc. gross.
2017-07-10T22:53:57Z trinitr0n kicks a stack of sparcbooks
2017-07-10T22:54:04Z tetero: Good stuff. I heard (not sure if reliable) that Java was released, as an exec decision, prior to it being ready
2017-07-10T22:54:19Z tetero: sparc had loads of awesome stuff
2017-07-10T22:54:21Z Cthulhux: i'd replace my x86-64 by a sparc any time if they would just... like... go on with it
2017-07-10T22:54:37Z tetero: Cthulhux: I'll buy you a Sparc64 XII if you buy me a Power9 :)
2017-07-10T22:54:41Z trinitr0n: Watching Java bring a 170MHZ SparcBook 3TX to it's knees is almost entertaining
2017-07-10T22:54:56Z holycow: mind boggling what was available in the 70s, no wonder jobs and gates were inspired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKakermaQ68
2017-07-10T22:55:05Z Cthulhux: tetero, sparc64 is a tier1 platform for openbsd, power is not AFAIK
2017-07-10T22:55:10Z Cthulhux: so fine for me
2017-07-10T22:55:11Z Cthulhux: 8)
2017-07-10T22:55:18Z tetero: Cthulhux: Yeah?
2017-07-10T22:55:31Z trinitr0n: holycow: if you're fascinated by the Xerox stuff, find a STAR or Daybreak and I'll send you the interlisp environment and microcode needed to turn it into a LispM
2017-07-10T22:55:38Z trinitr0n: you can also run smalltalk 80 and MESA / XDE
2017-07-10T22:55:41Z tetero: Cthulhux: You may want to look at cost :)
2017-07-10T22:55:44Z trinitr0n: and xerox viewpoint
2017-07-10T22:55:52Z trinitr0n: and it's a lot more reliable than the pure lisp garbage
2017-07-10T22:56:00Z Cthulhux: tetero, cost is less relevant when there is a predictable future
2017-07-10T22:56:27Z trinitr0n: cuz it's fuckin documented
2017-07-10T22:56:28Z holycow: *ooo* aha! we'll chat!
2017-07-10T22:56:31Z tetero: Cthulhux: I love OpenBSD and don't get me wrong here, but (tongue in cheek) if it's a tier 1 platform for OpenBSD, it has no future ^^
2017-07-10T22:56:35Z Cthulhux: a zombie platform like SPARC would be worth every cent without its unclear status
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2017-07-10T22:57:11Z Cthulhux: i mean, sparc is still an open platform without license fees (unlike ARM), sooo...
2017-07-10T22:57:14Z Cthulhux considers 
2017-07-10T22:57:30Z tetero: There's OpenPower
2017-07-10T22:57:41Z Cthulhux: go away with your power!
2017-07-10T22:57:57Z trinitr0n: holycow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV57WT5SVSg  bout 8 months ago I got interlisp up on my Xerox D*
2017-07-10T22:58:05Z tetero: Cthulhux: :-)
2017-07-10T22:58:20Z trinitr0n: had to upgrade the microcode memory on the CPU board to 8K to load the lisp ucode
2017-07-10T22:58:28Z tetero: Cthulhux: OpenBSD was actually the first *nix operating system I fell in love with. Not due to security or anything like that, but rather it was logical
2017-07-10T22:59:06Z Cthulhux: openbsd has become quite conservative. they dropped vax support :(
2017-07-10T22:59:14Z Cthulhux: but then again, i own no vax.
2017-07-10T22:59:23Z holycow: wow
2017-07-10T22:59:42Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: I went to calgary to pick up my 11/750 right after they dropped vax
2017-07-10T22:59:42Z Cthulhux: afaik netbsd still runs on a vax ^^
2017-07-10T22:59:48Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: theo and I went drinking about it
2017-07-10T23:00:04Z trinitr0n: https://www.instagram.com/p/BF_4XA2NS9M/
2017-07-10T23:00:31Z trinitr0n: machine restored: https://www.instagram.com/p/BGDkLJaNS-Y/
2017-07-10T23:00:34Z Cthulhux: ha. geriatric meeting.
2017-07-10T23:00:36Z Cthulhux scnr 
2017-07-10T23:00:47Z holycow: that is badass.  nice.
2017-07-10T23:00:52Z tetero: trinitr0n: Awesome!
2017-07-10T23:00:58Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: w/e bruh I'm 27
2017-07-10T23:00:58Z tetero: trinitr0n: Did he flame you?
2017-07-10T23:01:02Z holycow: that is your vax? ha!
2017-07-10T23:01:08Z Cthulhux: vax, one of the last machines which looked nearly as awesome as they were
2017-07-10T23:01:12Z holycow: so that is what they looked like
2017-07-10T23:01:18Z Cthulhux: sadface.jpg
2017-07-10T23:02:32Z Cthulhux: if it dies one day, you can still grow weed in it
2017-07-10T23:02:36Z tetero: I've got a vox, at least.
2017-07-10T23:02:40Z Cthulhux: try that with one of those extra-slim new pcs
2017-07-10T23:03:59Z trinitr0n: ha.
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2017-07-10T23:05:44Z Cthulhux: good night for now.
2017-07-10T23:05:49Z trinitr0n: l8r
2017-07-10T23:06:04Z holycow: nite
2017-07-10T23:06:11Z holycow: trinitr0n: you have an amazing collection
2017-07-10T23:06:21Z holycow: that is one nerdy instagram
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2017-07-10T23:06:45Z trinitr0n: I've had to hide a lot of it because people who are wholly unqualified to own a lot of machines start looking for them
2017-07-10T23:06:59Z holycow: heh
2017-07-10T23:07:02Z holycow: got it, a hint.
2017-07-10T23:07:09Z trinitr0n: there is a point at which relative to your experience in the niche of restoring old systems, a machine becomes irresponsible to own
2017-07-10T23:07:16Z trinitr0n: seriously.
2017-07-10T23:07:26Z trinitr0n: if you reach out to me I can help you walk that line
2017-07-10T23:07:55Z trinitr0n: but when a system has a MTBF of every 10th power-up or so, that's something you're gonna have to learn to fix yourself
2017-07-10T23:08:23Z holycow: you are now added to my project files
2017-07-10T23:08:28Z tetero: night Cthulhux
2017-07-10T23:08:51Z trinitr0n: something will go wrong, are you prepared to write microcode tapes, diagnostic tapes, etc? Comfortable with high voltage to fix some dumb issue on your irreplaceable CRT that just popped up? etc.
2017-07-10T23:09:00Z holycow: i did not realize they were that fragile.  i expected something a bit more, but that makes sense for 40 year old machiens
2017-07-10T23:09:12Z tetero: trinitr0n: Really? lispm's are that fragile?
2017-07-10T23:09:14Z holycow: no, none of that.
2017-07-10T23:09:23Z tetero: trinitr0n: Why do they fail so often?
2017-07-10T23:09:26Z trinitr0n: tetero: something will always go wrong to keep you on your toes
2017-07-10T23:10:06Z trinitr0n: well consider that 1) Any software problem that pops up is now a hardware problem because when you hose your environment you recover it from tapes, etc. that are often specific to your setup
2017-07-10T23:10:16Z trinitr0n: and with one system hosed, where do you write tapes from?
2017-07-10T23:10:29Z holycow: the xerox workstations are much more reliable i guess?
2017-07-10T23:10:32Z trinitr0n: and the tapes themselves are awful so now you're machining rubber rollers to get that to work
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2017-07-10T23:10:38Z holycow: nice --> https://www.instagram.com/p/BLo397AjyKy/
2017-07-10T23:10:56Z trinitr0n: holycow: they're floppy based and MFM based so there are emulators for both the disk and bootstrap media available
2017-07-10T23:11:05Z trinitr0n: they're lower power in general, don't run as hot, etc
2017-07-10T23:11:10Z holycow: neat
2017-07-10T23:11:11Z trinitr0n: they do not contain any ECL logic
2017-07-10T23:11:18Z trinitr0n: at least the daybreaks
2017-07-10T23:11:27Z trinitr0n: they use fewer programmable parts like PALs
2017-07-10T23:11:31Z trinitr0n: and there are schematics
2017-07-10T23:11:38Z trinitr0n: these are a few reasons they are easier to deal with
2017-07-10T23:11:50Z tetero: trinitr0n: Very cool though, a lot of fun to browse your instagram
2017-07-10T23:11:52Z holycow: added to notes
2017-07-10T23:11:58Z trinitr0n: it's all rather cumulative in determining how tempermental something is
2017-07-10T23:12:19Z holycow: i still can't believe you have a vax
2017-07-10T23:12:30Z holycow: i mean, it's not a crazy idea any more but you are the first person i've met that has one
2017-07-10T23:12:39Z trinitr0n: actually I have two 11/750s
2017-07-10T23:12:43Z holycow: added your comments to notes.
2017-07-10T23:12:44Z trinitr0n: small vaxes are easy to come by
2017-07-10T23:12:49Z Xach: Power use discourages me from collecting old systems. Power use, heat, and noise.
2017-07-10T23:13:07Z trinitr0n: Xach: yeah and power use begets power handling
2017-07-10T23:13:08Z tetero: Xach: I never thought of power use until 7 or so years ago though
2017-07-10T23:13:19Z tetero: It seemed as though back then power was plentiful
2017-07-10T23:13:21Z trinitr0n: "oh I need to recap this power supply", sure that's $1000 worth of capacitors
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2017-07-10T23:13:30Z trinitr0n: (in the case of the 11/750s)
2017-07-10T23:14:01Z Xach: I was just running an old Pentium and it jacked my bill by over $30/month.
2017-07-10T23:14:11Z trinitr0n: in general smaller less complex systems are, intuitively, exponentially more maintainable the smaller they are
2017-07-10T23:14:18Z holycow: Xach: heh yup!
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2017-07-10T23:14:34Z trinitr0n: they draw less power, run cooler, have less failure surface exposed where P(fault) grows exponentially
2017-07-10T23:14:52Z trinitr0n: if you'd like a small vax, holycow, to start with, that's a very reasonable system to own
2017-07-10T23:15:01Z trinitr0n: the MicroVAX family of system is very maintainable
2017-07-10T23:15:09Z trinitr0n: and obtainable!
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2017-07-10T23:15:44Z dTal: I think we should replace all electric heating elements everywhere with processors
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2017-07-10T23:16:10Z trinitr0n: dTal: effectively, I have done this. I heat my house in the winter with my gear. (not kidding)
2017-07-10T23:16:26Z trinitr0n: summer is camping and party season, winter is hacking season
2017-07-10T23:16:33Z tetero: trinitr0n: (forgive my ignorance) but is there no way to replace the PSU's, atleast, in those systems with more modern ones?
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2017-07-10T23:17:24Z trinitr0n: sure, it gets expensive too. These are very beefy power supplies. Modern equivalents will only be found in industrial equipment typically so if you spec out a modular PSU with equivalent ratings, you're gonna be spending $1K+
2017-07-10T23:17:33Z trinitr0n: also, it's less fun than running the original
2017-07-10T23:17:44Z dTal: Heating your house electrically is very expensive and inefficient!
2017-07-10T23:18:02Z trinitr0n: if you folks are interested in vintage computing we should not continue to hijack this channel. With apologies, let's move the conversation to #classiccmp of #bolix
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2017-07-10T23:18:47Z tetero: trinitr0n: How much power do they draw?
2017-07-10T23:18:48Z trinitr0n: dTal: My old house had electric heat :)
2017-07-10T23:18:50Z dTal: if you're going to use electrical power for climate control you're better off running a heat pump
2017-07-10T23:19:02Z trinitr0n: electric baseboard. Yeah, not efficient.
2017-07-10T23:19:09Z tetero: trinitr0n: Yeah you're right. I'm sorry, I think I was the one who precipitated this topic
2017-07-10T23:19:09Z trinitr0n: tetero: depends on the system and peripherals
2017-07-10T23:19:16Z holycow: dTal: it is indeed.  i am always blown away by how much cheaper natural gas is
2017-07-10T23:19:19Z tetero: I'll join #classiccmp
2017-07-10T23:19:30Z holycow: i had no idea those chans existed
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2017-07-10T23:37:31Z axion: Can LOOP destructuring work with OLL's or just basic conses?
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2017-07-10T23:54:57Z Xach: axion: what's OLL?
2017-07-10T23:55:58Z axion: Xach: Ordinary lambda list. I mean, can I somehow use LOOP's destructuring on X in order to work with ordinary lambda lists, instead of using this particular DESTRUCTURING-BIND form?: (loop for x in items collect (destructuring-bind (&key a b c &allow-other-keys) x (foo1 a) (foo2 b) (foo3 c)))
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2017-07-11T03:29:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-07-11T03:29:58Z loke`: Yay
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2017-07-11T03:32:38Z axion: Guess not :)
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2017-07-11T03:34:18Z beach: axion: Right, LOOP can only do simple destructuring according to a tree.
2017-07-11T03:34:55Z axion: Ok
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2017-07-11T06:53:51Z krwq: how do you cast array of (unsigned-byte 32) to (unsigned-byte 8)?
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2017-07-11T06:55:20Z jdz: krwq: what's supposed to happen to the numbers?  There's no such thing as "casting" in CL, the closest one might be COERCE.
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2017-07-11T06:56:04Z jdz: (map-into (make-array (length original-array) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2017-07-11T06:56:07Z jdz: Oops.
2017-07-11T06:56:48Z jdz: Anyway, just use MAP-INTO to transform the elements.
2017-07-11T06:57:26Z krwq: jdz, will that create 4 bytes per int or mod 256?
2017-07-11T06:57:40Z jdz: You might (or might not) find (ldb (byte 8 0) <number>) helpful.
2017-07-11T06:58:13Z jdz: krwq: will what create bytes?
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2017-07-11T06:59:00Z jdz: I'll paraphrase: you don't "cast" things.  You create a new array by applying a transformation function to the elements of an existing array.  It's that easy!
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2017-07-11T07:00:40Z krwq: jdz, (char*)array is easy, wouldn't map-into convert 32 integers to byte by dropping 24 bits?
2017-07-11T07:00:56Z |3b|: map-into wouldn't convert anything
2017-07-11T07:01:06Z jdz: krwq: you supply your own transformation function.
2017-07-11T07:01:09Z |3b|: at most it would error if the value doesn't fit
2017-07-11T07:01:24Z |3b|: the function being mapped could drop 24 bits
2017-07-11T07:01:45Z |3b|: if you want to expand to 4 bytes you would probably need a loop instead of map-into
2017-07-11T07:02:04Z krwq: is there a way to do that without allocating?
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2017-07-11T07:02:17Z jdz: krwq: also, why are you talking about (char*) arrays?  That's like an array of pointers?
2017-07-11T07:02:31Z |3b|: you need to allocate a vector of octets into which to write, but no other allocation needed
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2017-07-11T07:03:10Z jdz: krwq: at this point I assume you're confused.  What makes you think you have an array of (unsigned-byte 32)?
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2017-07-11T07:03:48Z |3b|: and if you are doing it for FFI, the FFI probably has some way to write words to memory. if you are doing it for network or files or whatever with lisp APIs, you probably want LDB (or some library that wraps it into a nicer form)
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2017-07-11T07:04:11Z |3b|: doesn't sound confused to me, at most poorly specified
2017-07-11T07:04:19Z krwq: jdz, picture a fragment of memory which you interpret as series of unsigned integers of size of 32 bits and then the same fragment of memory as series of unsigned bytes - that is what I mean
2017-07-11T07:04:48Z |3b|: yeah, you have to do that manually in portable CL :(
2017-07-11T07:04:49Z jdz: krwq: that means the other array is going to be 4 times the length, right?
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2017-07-11T07:05:02Z |3b|: 4 times the number of elements, same number of octets of ram
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2017-07-11T07:06:47Z jdz: Are we talking about foreign arrays or CL arrays?
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2017-07-11T07:06:59Z krwq: ok, thanks |3b| and jdz, will allocate for now but probably will need to figure out how to use streams to not allocate
2017-07-11T07:07:31Z jdz: And don't forget to ensure you use proper endianness.
2017-07-11T07:07:44Z |3b|: if you can't allocate, using FFI might be best option (particularly if sending to some non-copying foreign API)
2017-07-11T07:07:52Z jdz: Which means you cannot use "casting" anyway.
2017-07-11T07:08:06Z |3b|: you can't /always/ use it... but frequently you can
2017-07-11T07:08:30Z jdz: Yes, by special-casing code paths depending on platform?
2017-07-11T07:08:32Z |3b|: (portable code should obviously check for that before trying it, so needs to be able to do it the hard way anyway)
2017-07-11T07:08:49Z |3b|: or assuming platform, or by defining to always use native byte order
2017-07-11T07:08:54Z jdz: Yes, my point is that the non-native case should still be handled.
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2017-07-11T07:09:44Z |3b|: or error and let whatever user has the wrong endianness platform send a patch for it :)
2017-07-11T07:10:05Z jdz: Haha, right.
2017-07-11T07:10:27Z |3b| would say "use a lib that deals with it all" though, but you'd probably still need 2 arrays
2017-07-11T07:11:39Z krwq: i need big endian always in this case :P i dont think i ever owned a pc with little endian - perhaps some game console or something
2017-07-11T07:11:41Z |3b|: krwq: if you are writing only (unsigned-byte 32) to a file, and don't care about endianness, you might be able to get away with opening the file with :element-type (unsigned-byte 32)
2017-07-11T07:11:54Z |3b| thought intel was LE?
2017-07-11T07:12:19Z krwq: brb
2017-07-11T07:12:26Z jdz: |3b|: you thought right.
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2017-07-11T07:13:29Z |3b|: console probably more likely to be BE than PC
2017-07-11T07:14:05Z jdz: Well, I'm pretty sure PS3 had a Power CPU.
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2017-07-11T07:14:16Z |3b|: yeah, power and mips are what i was thinking of
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2017-07-11T07:14:37Z |3b|: both apparently switchable though, so could be either
2017-07-11T07:14:44Z krwq: ok, i think you might be right, so i did always have le then :P i need BE here
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2017-07-11T07:15:48Z jdz: Good thing CL is such a nice language and has LDB/DPB.
2017-07-11T07:16:08Z jdz: So shuffling bits around is no big deal.
2017-07-11T07:16:11Z |3b|: well, sort of good, would be nice to have some bulk operations
2017-07-11T07:16:46Z krwq: by any chance does anyone have mega.nz upload script in CL? i'm in progress porting javascript/python code (got two versions) and that's why I'm asking questions now
2017-07-11T07:17:00Z |3b|: and better support for heterogeneous blobs of memory in general
2017-07-11T07:18:26Z jdz: Pretty sure people around the world are starting to realise what a disaster C and C++ are.
2017-07-11T07:18:59Z krwq: well honestly I find low level stuff much more intuitive in C
2017-07-11T07:19:05Z jdz: Thing might change before I die even.
2017-07-11T07:19:32Z krwq: although still learning lisp for those things so possibly that's why
2017-07-11T07:19:58Z jdz: Low level things might be intuitive in C because they might have been written in and for C.
2017-07-11T07:20:46Z lieven: people hugely overestimate what the C standard guarantees about low level stuff
2017-07-11T07:20:48Z krwq: jdz, yeh, try to write something which is gc sensitive
2017-07-11T07:20:58Z lieven: they're just lucky it works on popular platforms
2017-07-11T07:21:00Z |3b|: yeah, simple cases of binary file/network data formats are easier in C (though CL is nicer for harder cases, LDB is great when you need parts of a word from arbitrary bit offsets)
2017-07-11T07:21:29Z jdz: https://blog.regehr.org/archives/1520
2017-07-11T07:21:46Z lieven: CL or Ada with representation clauses are a far superior solution that unfortunately won't become popular any time soon
2017-07-11T07:21:48Z |3b| would argue GC problems are an implementation detail, but agrees that in practice we don't have good solutions :(
2017-07-11T07:21:54Z jdz: That's enough for #lisp today methinks.
2017-07-11T07:22:22Z krwq: one garbage collection in a wrong moment and you got lag when communicating with hardware and whole things get screwed up :[
2017-07-11T07:23:19Z krwq: sb-sys:without-gcing is kinda ok if you don't do it frequently and manuallly call collect when it is ok
2017-07-11T07:23:26Z krwq: but that's slightly annoying
2017-07-11T07:23:39Z |3b|: yeah
2017-07-11T07:23:41Z lieven: krwq: have you actually experienced this alleged GC problem?
2017-07-11T07:23:58Z krwq: lieven: was playing with lisp on raspberry pi few days ago
2017-07-11T07:23:59Z krwq: yes
2017-07-11T07:24:08Z jdz: Problem solved with real-time incremental GCs which none of the current implementations offer.
2017-07-11T07:24:09Z lieven: yeah well, get a real computer
2017-07-11T07:24:26Z |3b|: lieven: real computers aren't any better when you are running at their limits :p
2017-07-11T07:25:04Z krwq: lieven: when you need really precise timing anything which runs OS or does anything unexpected in the background is a problem
2017-07-11T07:25:08Z lieven: |3b|: no but a lot (most?) of actual problems of interest are nowhere near the limits of today's reasonable hardware
2017-07-11T07:25:32Z lieven: krwq: yes there is a need for true real time OSes. But in that case windows and linux are out of the picture too.
2017-07-11T07:25:36Z |3b|: lieven: high-detail VR rendering pushes even a lot of unreasonable hardware
2017-07-11T07:26:02Z Zhivago: Real-time isn't about fast -- it's about well defined latency.
2017-07-11T07:26:05Z |3b|: and yeah, windows and linux can be a problem too, but adding GC on top of that doesn't help :)
2017-07-11T07:26:10Z |3b|: right
2017-07-11T07:26:14Z jdz: Zhivago: nobody's questioning that?
2017-07-11T07:26:30Z lieven: |3b|: I was not stating no such problems exist. I was stating a lot of problems aren't in that camp.
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2017-07-11T07:26:53Z Zhivago: Well, they probably should be, since real-time is really hard to do for that reason.
2017-07-11T07:27:15Z Zhivago: Most people settle for 'generally excessively fast'.
2017-07-11T07:27:42Z |3b| is hoping to end up in that category
2017-07-11T07:27:55Z JuanDaugherty: cheney don't help?
2017-07-11T07:27:57Z |3b|: try to avoid allocation so it doesn't GC much
2017-07-11T07:28:03Z Zhivago: Well, that's the cheaper problem to solve :) Buy a bigger hammer, and cross your fingers.
2017-07-11T07:28:30Z krwq: |3b| i had a problem when the code was allocating only on pi and on desktop it didn't - probably some old compiler version
2017-07-11T07:29:53Z |3b|: was the desktop 64bit and pi 32?
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2017-07-11T07:30:16Z |3b|: might have been hitting different fixnum limits
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2017-07-11T07:30:57Z krwq: desktop is 64bit, pi is ARM - not sure about bitness
2017-07-11T07:31:44Z krwq: i do not know much how to optimize code yet in lisp so probably i could do better :)
2017-07-11T07:31:58Z |3b|: looks like pi3 is 64, older are 32
2017-07-11T07:32:16Z krwq: so 32 then - i think mine is pi2
2017-07-11T07:33:25Z krwq: i think ill listen to someone's recommendation and do arduino for the real time stuff and pi for everything else
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2017-07-11T07:34:34Z krwq: although would be nice if i could write arduino's code in lisp although would have to get rid of gc and probably write some tiny compiler which probably would be overkill side project
2017-07-11T07:34:39Z axion: pi3 does have a 64bit processor, but most distributions still run 32 because of major bugs
2017-07-11T07:36:06Z krwq: i wonder if it would be feasible to not have gc at all and just ensure clean up with macros and unwind-protect
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2017-07-11T07:41:49Z p_l: krwq: you might be interested in a) compile time elision of GC b) 1bit refcounts
2017-07-11T07:42:26Z p_l: krwq: also ancient old lisps that sometimes had to fit in smaller space than cheap present-day MCU ;)
2017-07-11T07:43:30Z krwq: p_l: i think i'll pursue that subject one day although got too many projects right now for the new one
2017-07-11T07:43:41Z lieven: or linear lisps. Henry Baker has some papers on that.
2017-07-11T07:44:05Z p_l: krwq: on a completely other angle, generating code from Lisp is a time-honored trick
2017-07-11T07:44:29Z krwq: p_l: what do you mean?
2017-07-11T07:44:46Z p_l: krwq: writing a language in lisp to program the device
2017-07-11T07:45:05Z p_l: meaning you get to enjoy macros etc. and full power of language to create something that compiles down to target
2017-07-11T07:45:11Z p_l: IIRC, that's still used by Roomba?
2017-07-11T07:45:19Z p_l: (also, old JPL rovers)
2017-07-11T07:45:53Z krwq: i think ill test it with arduino at one point
2017-07-11T07:46:05Z jdz: Let's not forget whatever the name of Naughty Dog (GOAL?)
2017-07-11T07:46:11Z jdz: thing was.
2017-07-11T07:46:26Z krwq: GOAL sounds like macros on top of assembly
2017-07-11T07:46:28Z jdz: GOOL http://wiki.c2.com/?LispInJakAndDaxter
2017-07-11T07:46:38Z p_l: jdz: GOOL (early PS1) and GOAL (PS2) were full lisp languages
2017-07-11T07:47:19Z jdz: Well, I've only heard about them, not seen any.
2017-07-11T07:47:24Z p_l: GOAL had very easy access to individual instructions, because that was crucial to driving Emotion Engine at full speed
2017-07-11T07:48:00Z p_l: (you have essentially one instruction stream driving 3? separate, different CPUs, keeping the pipelines filled apropriately was important)
2017-07-11T07:48:24Z krwq: i wonder if there are any people here who have worked for naughty dog - lisp community is not that big these days
2017-07-11T07:49:42Z p_l: and a lot of people here are near-forever idle ;_;
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2017-07-11T07:50:29Z krwq: p_l: usually, whenever i start talking here i can't get anything done so I kind of understand :)
2017-07-11T07:51:07Z krwq: mostly because of distraction, no other reasons
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2017-07-11T07:57:58Z vtomole: p_l Yeah, the complete opposite of #haskell
2017-07-11T07:59:36Z vtomole: Not a fair comparison though cause the haskell community is larger
2017-07-11T07:59:59Z lieven: there is an overlap. I mostly idle on #haskell too :)
2017-07-11T08:00:06Z krwq: i like the traffic here, not too much, not too little
2017-07-11T08:00:30Z krwq: usually bursty conversations
2017-07-11T08:00:58Z vtomole: Is #scheme even alive?
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2017-07-11T08:09:12Z vtomole: What are the advantages of using object store vs relation databases?
2017-07-11T08:11:05Z JuanDaugherty: don't have to learn sql?
2017-07-11T08:12:10Z JuanDaugherty: sort of a standard social trope of pushback on a major advance
2017-07-11T08:12:26Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. insofar as 'nosql' is concerned)
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2017-07-11T08:18:11Z p_l: vtomole: the question is what kind of data you want to store and how do you want to use it. Then you can move to "should I use object store or relational?"
2017-07-11T08:19:14Z p_l: if your data follows relational model well enough, and when the various guarantees offered by RDBMSes fit your use case, best use RDBMS
2017-07-11T08:19:47Z p_l: tbh, for various reasons (availability of high-end RDBMSes on the cheap) they tend to be winning option more often than not
2017-07-11T08:20:35Z p_l: (and postgres is technically OORDBMS too)
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2017-07-11T08:22:57Z krwq: ok, I will be going sleep - nice to talk to you and thanks for help again!
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2017-07-11T08:52:01Z beach: In the context of Cleavir (a compiler framework that can be customized to fit the needs of the implementation), I am trying to figure out how to deal with compilation errors/warnings.
2017-07-11T08:52:06Z beach: What if I signal a specific error condition that also contains source location of the problem, and provide a restart to continue the compilation as well as possible?  It seems to me that client code can then (say) convert the error to a warning, and invoke the restart.
2017-07-11T08:52:09Z beach: Or a strange client such as Second Climacs could mark the problematic code in the buffer and convert the message of the error condition to a tooltip (or something similar).  Opinions?  Have I overlooked anything?
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2017-07-11T09:03:47Z dim: beach: can you list some compiler errors that are recoverable?
2017-07-11T09:04:41Z beach: Sure.  You encounter an undefined variable in a position to be evaluated.  Replace it with (say) NIL.
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2017-07-11T09:05:10Z beach: You encounter an undefined variable in a SETQ.  Replace the entire SETQ form with (say) NIL.
2017-07-11T09:05:51Z beach: You encounter an undefined function.  Replace a call to it by a call to (say) LIST.
2017-07-11T09:06:23Z beach: You encounter a malformed LET binding.  Remove that binding.
2017-07-11T09:06:29Z scymtym: maybe replacing the form with (error 'compile-time-error "undefined variable FOO") would be easier and safer?
2017-07-11T09:06:48Z beach: Definitely.
2017-07-11T09:07:08Z beach: It depends on the situation.  In Second Climacs it won't matter because the code is not going to be executed anyway.
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2017-07-11T09:07:48Z scymtym: how the remainder of the compilation is affected by the modified control flow may also be a consideration
2017-07-11T09:08:08Z beach: That is definitely more important for Second Climacs.
2017-07-11T09:10:28Z dim: by replace you mean edit the code?
2017-07-11T09:10:42Z beach: dim: The compiler compiles something else instead.
2017-07-11T09:11:08Z dim: I mean it sounds very interactive and not what I would expect from a compiler, which is more of a batch job to me
2017-07-11T09:11:34Z dim: maybe I'm not there yet in terms of writing software by debugging an empty program, as I've read about
2017-07-11T09:11:41Z beach: dim: The restarts would typically be invoked programmatically, not interactively.
2017-07-11T09:11:51Z dim: I think I don't get the angle you're looking the situation at
2017-07-11T09:12:14Z beach: Have you read what Pitman wrote about the condition system?
2017-07-11T09:12:23Z dim: so you're saying compile-time error doesn't mean the code is wrong?
2017-07-11T09:12:34Z dim: I don't think I did, no
2017-07-11T09:12:44Z beach: No, that's not what I am saying.  What made you think I did?
2017-07-11T09:13:28Z dim: seems like you're adding features so that when your compiler is stuck with an error in the code you can then unblock it by sending new information, basically editing the code in ways I don't really get
2017-07-11T09:13:38Z scymtym: dim: sbcl actually does that. (compile nil (lambda () a)) is compiled as if it had been something like (compile nil (lambda () (error 'unbound-variable :name a))) instead. the point is that the compiler can continue and give you feedback for the remainder of the code
2017-07-11T09:13:59Z dim: I don't like that :/
2017-07-11T09:14:18Z scymtym missed quotes
2017-07-11T09:14:25Z dim: so maybe I just didn't get used to it and refrain from understanding what's behind, I just expect the compiler to be a safe guard for me
2017-07-11T09:14:37Z beach: Essentially, signaling an error means "I am some low-level code and I have encountered as situation where I can't continue without help".  Providing restarts means "Here are some alternative ways I can get out of this conundrum.  Please help me!"  High level code presumably knows in which way it would like for the low-level code to continue, so invokes the right restart for the situation.
2017-07-11T09:14:43Z dim: problem is if you're not paying attention you can try to run the code and only catch the problem at run-time
2017-07-11T09:15:12Z dim: beach: hence my question about recoverable errors in the context of a compiler
2017-07-11T09:15:24Z dim: I though that either the code compiles or needs to be edited
2017-07-11T09:15:30Z scymtym: COMPILE will still indicate that the code is wrong via signaled conditions and return values
2017-07-11T09:15:34Z dim: and the example you gave tend to confirm my impression
2017-07-11T09:15:45Z beach: dim: That will be possible with what I suggest.  Just don't invoke any restart.
2017-07-11T09:16:16Z loke`: dim: I can think of situations where compiled code and restarts make sense
2017-07-11T09:16:23Z dim: anyway, I guess I've shown your question is over my head and I won't be helpful to you ;-)
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2017-07-11T09:17:00Z beach: Oh, well.
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2017-07-11T09:17:47Z dim: also I think I've just setup myself up (in another context) to teach myself Go and write some code in it ;/
2017-07-11T09:19:09Z beach: dim: Being able to execute code that has compilation errors in it is essential.  The programmer might want to test a part of the code that does not have any errors in it, without having to deal with eliminating all problems in other parts.  That's in fact a selling point with dynamic languages like Common Lisp.
2017-07-11T09:20:13Z dim: mmm, ok
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2017-07-11T09:21:18Z beach: dim: But with my suggestion, I am giving the programmer a choice, or rather, the Common Lisp implementation using Cleavir could provide such an option to the programmer.  If no restart is used, then it will be an error and compilation will stop.
2017-07-11T09:22:35Z beach: dim: Now, with the incremental first-step compilation of top-level forms in the Second Climacs editor, I certainly do NOT want to interrupt compilation when there is an error.  I want to highlight the code that is problematic and let the programmer know what the problem is in the form of a tooltip or similar.
2017-07-11T09:23:19Z ots: Hey. Anyone have any feedback or a review of the book https://www.darkchestnut.com/book-common-lisp-application-deployment/ ? I liked https://github.com/pvlpenev/fullstacklisp but it is very incomplete and I'm somewhat left hanging trying to learn good practices in web development... TY.
2017-07-11T09:23:37Z loke`: ots: Never saw it
2017-07-11T09:23:47Z loke`: I have, however, deployed full stack Lisp web applications.
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2017-07-11T09:25:46Z dim: beach: I guess I'm still not used to condition system and impacts of if for in-process compilation, but yes it sounds powerful and good an approach
2017-07-11T09:25:51Z dim: (color me convinced)
2017-07-11T09:25:57Z ots: loke: did you know it already, and if not, how did you learn?
2017-07-11T09:27:19Z ots: loke: and would you happen to know a specific resource for looking at a complete solution? The web is great for finding a gazillion of small pieces, but a coherent/complete example seems harder.
2017-07-11T09:27:24Z loke`: ots: By doing
2017-07-11T09:28:26Z loke`: My project is open source: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato with a Docker deployment here: https://github.com/lokedhs/potato-docker-compose and a video presentation about how to develop here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl8jQ2wRh6k
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2017-07-11T09:32:58Z ots: loke: tyvm. I'll dig into that. And app looks good:)
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2017-07-11T13:48:07Z beach: [compiler messages again] Here is what I can do: I already have a CLIENT object that is passed to the top-level compilation function for the purpose of a host of client-specific processing.  I can provide mixin classes for clients that control what the compiler does with messages.
2017-07-11T13:48:14Z beach: One such mixing would just let the errors abort the compilation.  A second one would transform errors to warnings and have the compiler try to recover as much as possible.  A third one would be for Second Climacs and it would compile something simple instead, and turn error messages into tooltips on the buffer location concerned by the message.
2017-07-11T13:48:16Z beach: The mechanism for doing that would be an :AROUND method on the main compilation entry, specialized to the mixin.  For example, the second one would handle the root condition type and invoke the right restart in all cases.
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2017-07-11T13:55:25Z Bike: oh, i missed stuff, huh.
2017-07-11T13:57:31Z beach: Not much.
2017-07-11T13:58:29Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand this client? i'd expect a higher level to just establish handlers like usual
2017-07-11T13:59:25Z beach: Yes, and the client can still do that.  I am just providing reasonable defaults with these mixin classes.
2017-07-11T13:59:43Z beach: The new thing here is the standardized restart.
2017-07-11T14:00:08Z beach: ... so that the client can tell the low-level code how to proceed.
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2017-07-11T14:01:28Z Bike: standardized restart? like... you have a function (or around method) that calls the normal compiler with e.g. a handler that turns unbound-variable into warn and consider-special, for a normal compiler?
2017-07-11T14:02:29Z beach: No, "standardized restart" as in compile-an-error-message-instead and compile-anything-you-like-instead.
2017-07-11T14:02:43Z beach: So that the same restart can be invoked for all errors.
2017-07-11T14:03:27Z Bike: oh.
2017-07-11T14:04:06Z Bike: i'm not actually sure how that would work with consider special? i guess you could turn a into (locally (declare (special a)) a) but that seems kind of complicated
2017-07-11T14:04:26Z Bike: and that wouldn't work with unbound functions, i don't think
2017-07-11T14:04:50Z Bike: i guess you could provide (funcall (fdefinition name) ...) but ech
2017-07-11T14:05:29Z beach: I don't see the problem.
2017-07-11T14:05:44Z Bike: with the latter?
2017-07-11T14:05:57Z beach: Presumably, most clients, such as Clasp, would call the function indirectly through the symbol and the symbol already exists.
2017-07-11T14:06:08Z beach: So there would be no difference in the compiled code.
2017-07-11T14:06:29Z beach: [I am talking function names in the form of symbols]
2017-07-11T14:06:52Z Bike: but it has to duplicate what whatever-to-ast does elsewhere.
2017-07-11T14:07:21Z beach: I am lost.  As usual.
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2017-07-11T14:11:41Z Bike: mm. thinking about it. i don't think it would duplicate anything major. it would be a little slower than it is now but that doesn't matter. so nevermind.
2017-07-11T14:11:53Z beach: OK.
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2017-07-11T14:17:42Z Bike: the restart would be separate from the errors, too. that's kind of interesting. like (restart-case (call-next-method) ...) in an around method on convert, i guess
2017-07-11T14:18:11Z beach: I don't think so.
2017-07-11T14:18:31Z beach: The restart-case would be in the low-level function, and the around method would have invoke-restart.  No?
2017-07-11T14:19:14Z beach: The :AROUND method would have a handler for the root condition.
2017-07-11T14:19:25Z beach: No?
2017-07-11T14:19:26Z Bike: i mean, the "standard restart" is to replace the form being converted, right?
2017-07-11T14:20:12Z beach: I think I need to come up with an example.  Otherwise, I'll confuse myself as well.
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2017-07-11T14:34:16Z beach: I won't do that today.  Too tired after a long day of work.
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2017-07-11T14:36:13Z Bike: alright.
2017-07-11T14:37:35Z beach: Maybe I can make it.
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2017-07-11T14:40:47Z beach: I have a small example.  Let me paste it.
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2017-07-11T14:44:08Z beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+7IIN
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2017-07-11T14:44:54Z beach: The first condition is the root condition that will be handled by the :AROUND method.
2017-07-11T14:45:04Z beach: The second condition is the specific one for this situation.
2017-07-11T14:45:17Z beach: The standardized restart is called RECOVER.
2017-07-11T14:45:47Z beach: PROCESS1 symbolizes a client that wants to interrupt compilation as soon as there is a problem.
2017-07-11T14:46:05Z beach: PROCESS2 symbolizes a client that wants the compiler to recover.
2017-07-11T14:46:05Z Bike: so the standard restart does different things in different places?
2017-07-11T14:46:10Z beach: Yes.
2017-07-11T14:46:18Z beach: It is just the name that is standardized.
2017-07-11T14:47:21Z Bike: oh. i thought the standard restart was "compile some provided form instead of the form that caused the compiler to signal any error"
2017-07-11T14:47:32Z beach: I might find a way for client code to handle specific conditions specially, thus making it possible to provide individual restarts for different situations, such as SUBSTITUTE-A-DIFFERENT-NAME.
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2017-07-11T14:48:17Z beach: Such a restart would have to be invoked differently by client code in each different situations, I would think.
2017-07-11T14:48:43Z beach: That would make it almost impossible for client code to customize the compiler with a reasonable investment.
2017-07-11T14:48:51Z Bike: what?
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2017-07-11T14:50:32Z beach: If every time the compiler sees a problem (there might be dozens of such situations) a different kind of form has to be supplied (a different variable name in a SETQ, an alternative binding in LET, a different function name in a call), then client code would have to handle each individual condition type and do something different with the restart in each situation.
2017-07-11T14:51:30Z Bike: well, yeah. and cleavir provides handler functions so it's fairly easy.
2017-07-11T14:52:17Z beach: That's the point.  Client code can choose a reasonable default and get work done more easily.
2017-07-11T14:52:46Z beach: Like I said, maybe I can find a way for clients who so wish to have finer control over the process.
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2017-07-11T14:54:01Z beach: I mean, there is always a way of course, but it has to be reasonable, as in just having to address the exceptional behavior it wishes to provide, as opposed to "all or nothing" as in "either use the default or provide a handler for the following 67 conditions".
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2017-07-11T15:01:29Z Bike: ok well what i was thinking was that if the restart is "provide another form", a client could do like (handler-bind (...specially handled conditions... (compilation-program-error #'runtime-compile-error)) ...), and then cleavir has (defun runtime-compile-error (e) (invoke-restart 'new-form `(error 'runtime-compile-error :error ,e))) or so.
2017-07-11T15:02:40Z beach needs to parse that.
2017-07-11T15:03:47Z beach failed to parse.
2017-07-11T15:03:56Z beach: Maybe you can describe the behavior in words.
2017-07-11T15:04:35Z Bike: Okay, so you have this blunt instrument restart that takes one argument and just replaces the form being compiled with a new one, right.
2017-07-11T15:04:52Z beach: Sure.
2017-07-11T15:05:13Z Bike: And the client says, if the compiler runs into pretty much any error at all while compiling some form, replace that form with something that will signal an error at runtime, that refers to the error signaled at compile time.
2017-07-11T15:05:34Z beach: I see.
2017-07-11T15:05:47Z beach: The problem is that not all substitutions are forms.
2017-07-11T15:05:53Z Bike: (and if it wants to handle stuff specially, which it probably does, it can just put those handlers first)
2017-07-11T15:05:57Z beach: For example, if there is a malformed LET binding.
2017-07-11T15:06:23Z Bike: right, so in that case it can still just do this (replacing the entire LET form), or it could use a different restart to replace the binding or whatever.
2017-07-11T15:07:20Z beach: That might be possible.
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2017-07-11T15:09:45Z Bike: i guess it works better for compilers than for editors, which would probably want to continue going through the let form, and such
2017-07-11T15:10:00Z beach: Definitely.
2017-07-11T15:10:56Z beach: But the two different requirements might be possible to combine.
2017-07-11T15:11:03Z Bike: i suppose "just use nil" doesn't really strike me as a reasonable default for most applications. but of course it could just be like you had but with a more specific restart name, and the editor can ok yeah you get it.
2017-07-11T15:11:58Z Bike: having lots of restart options is good, of course.
2017-07-11T15:12:03Z beach: I think the main thing then is to create different restarts, at least one of which is RECOVER.
2017-07-11T15:12:31Z beach: ... and to create a hierarchy of conditions that can be handled the same way, i.e. by invoking the same restart.
2017-07-11T15:12:59Z Bike: makes sense. could have mixins.
2017-07-11T15:13:09Z beach: Absolutely.
2017-07-11T15:14:26Z beach: With a reasonable condition "graph", client code could handle only certain categories, rather than each leaf separately.
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2017-07-11T15:19:52Z hound1358: hello
2017-07-11T15:20:23Z beach: Hello hound1358.
2017-07-11T15:21:01Z hound1358: i'm new here.. i hope to learn a lot =D
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2017-07-11T15:21:12Z beach: Great!  Welcome.
2017-07-11T15:23:08Z hound1358: some books to learn lisp oriented to AI?
2017-07-11T15:23:18Z dlowe: minion: tell hound1358 about PAIP
2017-07-11T15:23:19Z minion: hound1358: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming
2017-07-11T15:23:30Z dlowe: that was... not helpful minion
2017-07-11T15:23:46Z beach: minion: bad bot!
2017-07-11T15:23:47Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2017-07-11T15:23:48Z Bike: well it's not like it's online
2017-07-11T15:24:27Z dlowe: I guess so.  Anyway, that has lisp with an AI bent, though it's the "symbolic manipulation" AI model, not the "massive storm of linear algebra" AI
2017-07-11T15:24:38Z hound1358: and some books about PAIPs?
2017-07-11T15:24:51Z dlowe: PAIP is a book.
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2017-07-11T15:24:52Z Xach: hound1358: PAIP is the name of the book
2017-07-11T15:25:36Z hound1358: oh ok
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2017-07-11T15:27:20Z beach: hound1358: Most people who hang out here use Common Lisp for applications that are not related to artificial intelligence.
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2017-07-11T15:27:42Z hound1358: really? interesting
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2017-07-11T15:27:55Z beach: hound1358: And that book, by Peter Norvig, although using examples from "traditional AI, is really a book about program design using Common Lisp.
2017-07-11T15:28:21Z hound1358: i'm learning lisp because i'm interested a lot about AI
2017-07-11T15:29:14Z Xach: hound1358: it is possibly not a good place to start these days.
2017-07-11T15:29:15Z Bike: AI research doesn't depend on programming language.
2017-07-11T15:29:19Z hound1358: specifically neural netwoks
2017-07-11T15:29:33Z hound1358: Xach: why not
2017-07-11T15:29:57Z Xach: hound1358: because the people doing AI stuff in 2017 are not using Lisp very much
2017-07-11T15:30:12Z Xach: hound1358: so it might help to find someone doing what interests you and look at what they use.
2017-07-11T15:30:20Z beach: hound1358: Maybe I am wrong, but Lisp was good for AI back in the days when it was thought that AI could be accomplished with so-called symbolic programming.  I have the impression that the techniques used today are more about massive data sets.
2017-07-11T15:30:21Z hound1358: Bike: Well.. i read that lisp, altough is a general purpose language, it was especifically designed for AI
2017-07-11T15:30:22Z Xach: hound1358: that said, lisp is very nice and worth learning just to use.
2017-07-11T15:30:36Z Bike: lisp has a reputation for AI because it was used for it a few decades ago, because AI at that time was based in symbolic manipulation and lisp can do that without libraries or anything.
2017-07-11T15:31:06Z Bike: when lisp was developed, a sufficiently fancy calculuator was considered "AI"
2017-07-11T15:31:42Z Bike: it has no special facilities for neural networks. lisp is, indeed, good, but it's not a silver bullet of any kind
2017-07-11T15:32:11Z Xach: Just yesterday someone ripped off my lisp-powered sign maker to make and sell physical signs :~(
2017-07-11T15:32:22Z Bike: lol.
2017-07-11T15:33:30Z hound1358: the interesting feature in lisp for me.. is that it can be self-compiled
2017-07-11T15:33:46Z beach: What does that even mean?
2017-07-11T15:34:00Z Xach: I would love for you to keep your enthusiasm while losing your misconceptions. Please don't think of corrections as discouragements.
2017-07-11T15:34:06Z Bike: meaning that you can compile generated code, or that it has self-hosting implementations? both are nice features, but also have nothing to do with AI.
2017-07-11T15:34:09Z hound1358: oh sorry.. i didn't express it well
2017-07-11T15:34:23Z hound1358: yes, self hosted
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2017-07-11T15:34:31Z Bike: i mean, so is C.
2017-07-11T15:35:14Z hound1358: i mean that you can write coda able to enhance itself with the time
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2017-07-11T15:35:27Z hound1358: based on some rules
2017-07-11T15:36:03Z beach agrees with Xach.
2017-07-11T15:36:08Z Bike: you can do that with anything. being able to emulate another program's behavior is what makes a Turing-complete computer a computer.
2017-07-11T15:36:41Z hound1358: not everything, not automatically
2017-07-11T15:36:51Z hound1358: i mean dinamically
2017-07-11T15:37:19Z Bike: yes, everything. you can write a brainfuck program that has access to its own source code, modifies it to improve it, and then runs it (and that program does the same, and so on)
2017-07-11T15:37:32Z Bike: it might be easier in lisp, i guess, but it's not like an incredible qualitative difference.
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2017-07-11T15:37:46Z beach: hound1358: The strong point of Common Lisp is that it is "interactive", i.e., the meaning of a program is defined by a sequence of "interactions" that modify some global state of the system.
2017-07-11T15:38:34Z hound1358: i understand
2017-07-11T15:39:19Z beach: hound1358: This feature greatly improves development by letting the programmer experiment by running incomplete code.
2017-07-11T15:39:29Z optikalmouse: beach: that implies quite a lot; while the system is in production you can modify it without restarting servers and instances and doing a whole deploy cycle
2017-07-11T15:39:48Z beach: optikalmouse: Absolutely.
2017-07-11T15:40:30Z beach: Not something that is used very frequently, but essential when you need it.
2017-07-11T15:41:17Z hound1358: i have to leave now, thanks guys you helped a lot
2017-07-11T15:41:23Z Bike: cheers.
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2017-07-11T15:41:58Z optikalmouse: beach: it was awesome to see when coding smalltalk with the seaside web framework; hit the endpoint, it doesn't exist, code it up, hit another one, oops forgot validation, code it up, and just progressively building it up
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2017-07-11T15:45:35Z Bike: i feel kinda bad for being discouraging but i guess it's better than allowing weird expectations
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2017-07-11T15:47:19Z pils_: why does a with-open-file removes leading zero's when reading from a file?
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2017-07-11T15:48:31Z beach: optikalmouse: Sounds great!
2017-07-11T15:48:54Z beach: pils_: ?
2017-07-11T15:49:01Z beach: pils_: Explain please?
2017-07-11T15:49:11Z beach: Bike: No, I think you are right.
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2017-07-11T15:50:41Z beach: pils_: Are you reading integers?  Common Lisp integers either have an infinite number of leading 0s or an infinite number of leading 1s.
2017-07-11T15:52:38Z pils_: yes i want to fill a list from a file and some rows in that file start withnzero's: 0 0 0 4 5  0  0 . if i read that with with-open-file and print it the result is 4500
2017-07-11T15:52:48Z beach: pils_: Also, WITH-OPEN-FILE does not do anything particular, other than opening the file and then closing it at the end.  It's what you do in the body of WITH-OPEN-FILE that has meaning.
2017-07-11T15:53:11Z pils_: why does he interprete it as a number?
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2017-07-11T15:53:20Z beach: pils_: Then don't read number.  Read characters.
2017-07-11T15:53:28Z beach: pils_: What are you using for reading?
2017-07-11T15:53:32Z beach: What function?
2017-07-11T15:54:40Z pils_: with-open-file and then read
2017-07-11T15:54:48Z beach: pils_: That's READ's job.  Use READ-CHAR instead, or READ-LINE.
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2017-07-11T15:54:53Z beach: clhs read
2017-07-11T15:54:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
2017-07-11T15:54:56Z beach: clhs read-char
2017-07-11T15:54:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm
2017-07-11T15:55:02Z beach: clhs read-line
2017-07-11T15:55:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm
2017-07-11T15:55:16Z pils_: ok thanks
2017-07-11T15:55:27Z beach: pils_: READ is the reader for Common Lisp expressions.  Not for characters.
2017-07-11T15:55:51Z oleo: ya it's great for reading forms
2017-07-11T15:56:12Z beach: oleo: Not only forms.  Any expressions.
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2017-07-11T15:58:11Z oleo: i'm ca on page 200 of edi's book
2017-07-11T15:58:21Z oleo: great recipes
2017-07-11T16:00:31Z oleo: i'd not get some of that stuff even if i read the hypersec 200 times over.....
2017-07-11T16:00:34Z oleo: lol
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2017-07-11T16:23:47Z malice`: Reading language specification is not a great way to learn the language.
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2017-07-11T16:24:38Z jackdaniel: it's not the worst either (given you already know how to program)
2017-07-11T16:25:01Z optikalmouse: malice`: I don't know, I read and re-read the spec for R5RS of scheme ;p
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2017-07-11T16:29:39Z dispersed: specification schmecification
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2017-07-11T16:36:29Z malice`: I've said it's not a great way. It's doable, and depending on the spec might not be a bad idea, but I prefer other resources.
2017-07-11T16:36:41Z malice`: Although good luck learning C++ that way :P
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2017-07-11T16:39:45Z pjb: minion: electronically composed
2017-07-11T16:39:45Z minion: you speak nonsense
2017-07-11T16:39:49Z pjb: minion: bad electronically composed!
2017-07-11T16:39:49Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2017-07-11T16:41:54Z malice`: I've found a code that uses (setf (some place) (values something something-else)). Is that a reasonable code?
2017-07-11T16:42:02Z malice`: Will the second value provided by values ever used?
2017-07-11T16:42:46Z malice`: It looks like it won't on non-custom setfs, like (setf *some-place* (values 1 2 3)) ; it would set *some-place* to 1.
2017-07-11T16:43:05Z malice`: What a bout custom ones? I think they won't either, am I wrong?
2017-07-11T16:43:10Z malice`: s/a bout/about
2017-07-11T16:43:50Z Bike: you can have a setf place receive multiple values, yes
2017-07-11T16:43:56Z Bike: most obviously, (setf (values a b) ...) is fine
2017-07-11T16:44:22Z malice`: Oh, I haven't thought of that.
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2017-07-11T16:45:30Z malice`: I'm not sure if I like this method though. Are there any benefits for this other than concise code?
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2017-07-11T16:49:11Z pjb: malice`: you may want to implement atomic assignment of multiple values.
2017-07-11T16:49:41Z pjb: (setf (atomic-values a b c) (values 1 2 3))
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2017-07-11T16:54:02Z Bike: malice`: it makes sense especially when the values are, well, multiple
2017-07-11T16:54:26Z Bike: like if you have two variables in a structure that are the result of a call to FLOOR, you might as well just do (setf (my-place ...) (floor ...))
2017-07-11T16:55:20Z malice`: Bike: yeah, but I guess that I'd prefer to wrap that in another function, like (set-my-place var) so that I'm sure the call to floor is there, and not some other data
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2017-07-11T16:55:28Z malice`: pjb: that is a nice example, thanks.
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2017-07-11T16:55:41Z Bike: malice`: er what
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2017-07-11T17:10:29Z fiveop_: (asdf:load-system <system> :force t) where <system> is the name of a package inferred system seems not to work like one would like. Is there a workaround?
2017-07-11T17:10:59Z Bike: how so?
2017-07-11T17:11:56Z fiveop_: It does not recompile it.
2017-07-11T17:12:01Z fiveop_: (or it's dependencies)
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2017-07-11T17:14:12Z fiveop_: compare (ql:quickload <system>) (asdf:load-system <system> :force t) for values :lil and :alexandria for example
2017-07-11T17:14:23Z Bike: i think you need :force :all to rebuild dependencies in any case, but it really ought to force the actual system...
2017-07-11T17:14:36Z fiveop_: :all works
2017-07-11T17:14:51Z Bike: what?
2017-07-11T17:15:19Z fiveop_: well t works as expected as well, the root package of a package inferred system is usually pretty empty
2017-07-11T17:15:35Z Bike: ok, so, this does what you wanted?
2017-07-11T17:16:15Z fiveop_: No. I want to load the packages that belong to the "system" but not its external dependencies. I guess ASDF cannot distinguish them.
2017-07-11T17:16:26Z malice`: Bike: umm, what I meant is that instead of providing an interface for, let's say, a "result" class that has a (setf result) method that you would use like (setf (result x) (floor some-number)), I'd prefer to have a (set-result-of x some-number) or (setf (result-of x) some-number)
2017-07-11T17:16:27Z fiveop_: I just hoped, someone might have a solution for this.
2017-07-11T17:16:51Z Bike: fiveop_: oh, so when you said "package inferred system" you meant "a particular group of asdf systems"
2017-07-11T17:17:27Z fiveop_: no
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2017-07-11T17:18:04Z Bike: malice`: what if the floor is the result of some more complicated function?
2017-07-11T17:18:15Z fiveop_: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html#The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension
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2017-07-11T17:19:13Z Bike: okay, well i'm seeing "each file is its own system"
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2017-07-11T17:21:12Z Bike: so i'm guessing :force t is just forcing the actually specified one, and the inferred systems work the same as the external ones
2017-07-11T17:21:31Z Bike: :force lets you explicitly specify a list of systems to force, so you could do that, but that's not super convenient
2017-07-11T17:21:51Z Bike: that's unfortunate
2017-07-11T17:22:47Z malice`: Bike: yes, it would depend on the class and its purpose, so I think that the discussion here would be pointless without concrete example
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2017-07-11T17:24:58Z Bike: right
2017-07-11T17:25:06Z Bike: just, it's useful sometimes.
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2017-07-11T17:26:15Z malice`: I can see.
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2017-07-11T17:28:19Z fiveop_: Looks like I'm not the first one http://asdf-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com/wExt24rn/operations-on-package-inferred-system
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2017-07-11T17:30:11Z Bike: oh, fare knows about it.
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2017-07-11T18:26:29Z sukaeto: <lieven> CL or Ada with representation clauses are a far superior solution that unfortunately won't become popular any time soon
2017-07-11T18:26:51Z sukaeto: yeah, Ada is a great language for real time systems and for talking directly to hardware
2017-07-11T18:26:59Z sukaeto: it's a shame more people don't know about it/use it :-(
2017-07-11T18:27:06Z sukaeto: anyway, this is #lisp, not #ada, so I'll stop
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2017-07-11T18:31:42Z tetero: sukaeto: I believe that ADA is used in Swedish jet fighters, or atleast it was.
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2017-07-11T18:35:26Z sukaeto: tetero: that wouldn't surprise me - it used to see a lot of military use.  Also, Ada is not an acronym - it's named after Ada Lovelace
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2017-07-11T18:35:58Z dlowe: unless you've been talking about the American Dental Association all this time :)
2017-07-11T18:36:48Z sukaeto: or the American Disabilities Act :-)
2017-07-11T18:36:50Z tetero: sukaeto: I'm terrible at writing acronyms for languages or software consistently. I know it's Unix but I often write UNIX. I know it's Lisp but I often write LISP. Sorry ;)
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2017-07-11T18:47:41Z knobo: What is "Ada with representation clauses" and how is it similar to CL?
2017-07-11T18:48:54Z oleo: actually i never saw ada code
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2017-07-11T18:53:46Z edgar-rft: sukaeto: what if Ada Lovelace was named after an acronym?
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2017-07-11T19:39:45Z yaroe: Hello ! I'm curently under fire at work because of Lisp (Common Lisp)
2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe: I work in a small research lab (french gov) in astronomy.  We are a
2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe: small team 5 developpers of various domain knowledge and age. We work
2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe: essentially independently on software project (small team).
2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe:  
2017-07-11T19:40:23Z yaroe: I've been using CL for years for various tasks. The new team manager decided to dish CL also there are some serious software written in it. Arguments are :
2017-07-11T19:40:44Z yaroe: - lisp is exotic (he knows that lisp is the official extension language of the GNU project but he don't think that matters : GNU/Linux isn 't that a key OS)
2017-07-11T19:40:51Z yaroe: - nobody can reread your software
2017-07-11T19:40:59Z yaroe: - only few people use lisp
2017-07-11T19:41:05Z yaroe: - we can't hire a guy to work with lisp
2017-07-11T19:41:35Z temporal1 is now known as TeMPOraL
2017-07-11T19:41:59Z dlowe: well, the last is empirically untrue, since you're working three
2017-07-11T19:42:03Z dlowe: *there
2017-07-11T19:42:08Z Bike: is there a question here?
2017-07-11T19:42:20Z dlowe: Sorry.  Sounds like a real bummer.
2017-07-11T19:42:48Z vtomole_: Hey Bike
2017-07-11T19:42:49Z yaroe: I wonder if the comunity has something pre-made to deal with this kind of situation
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2017-07-11T19:43:16Z tetero: yaroe: Wrap an argument around greenspuns tenth rule?
2017-07-11T19:43:32Z Bike: it all boils down to "it's not popular"
2017-07-11T19:43:35Z Bike: vtomole_: need something?
2017-07-11T19:43:56Z vtomole_: Yeah we never finished out convo yesterday, i'm trying to understand the stack machine.
2017-07-11T19:44:00Z vtomole_: *our
2017-07-11T19:44:48Z vtomole_: Specificcal how it can execute lisp expressions
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2017-07-11T19:46:17Z yaroe: provide answers, where on the web finding a lisp guy to hire is esay etc
2017-07-11T19:46:29Z Bike: okay, well, what i said yesterday is that compilation essentially means translating an algorithm in one universe of operations (lambda, function calls, numbers) into another (jump, bit patterns), and the latter will often be more impoverished for the sake of making it easy to execute
2017-07-11T19:46:31Z dlowe: yaroe: The best thing you can do is admit that it's not popular, and explain that it will take a lot of time (and money) to reimplement the existing CL codebase in something else, and the result will have a costly period of bugginess
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2017-07-11T19:47:22Z dlowe: If they are committed to paying the costs, then there's not much you can do.
2017-07-11T19:47:24Z TeMPOraL: I'd add that, on the other hand, any developer worth their salt will be able to quickly learn to read the code; learning tech on the fly is kind of what good devs do for a living
2017-07-11T19:47:29Z TeMPOraL: but maybe that's a little too snarky
2017-07-11T19:47:39Z Bike: a computer mostly just has operations for manipulating fixed-length binary words, and somehow we get IRC clients out of that
2017-07-11T19:47:40Z yaroe: tetero: he doesn't bother
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2017-07-11T19:48:48Z yaroe: dlowe: that's sound reasonnable.
2017-07-11T19:48:50Z vtomole_: Bike: Of course. But how can a stack machine create a closure?
2017-07-11T19:49:03Z tetero: TeMPOraL: I'm not sure why, but most developers I know find Lisp completely unreadable, my hypothesis is that it just goes counter to what they're used to
2017-07-11T19:49:21Z dlowe: but emphasize that there's time costs (it will cost a lot to move away), opportunity costs (you won't be able to work on other things), productivity costs (due to the increased number of bugs)
2017-07-11T19:49:28Z tetero: A lot of people dislike 'different'
2017-07-11T19:49:34Z vtomole_: tetero: Reading lisp code is pretty difficult if it's not your own.
2017-07-11T19:49:40Z dlowe: plus morale costs (you're grumpy about not working in lisp)
2017-07-11T19:49:48Z tetero: vtomole_: Oh.
2017-07-11T19:49:59Z vtomole_: tetero: at least for me
2017-07-11T19:50:01Z dlowe: reading code is difficult
2017-07-11T19:50:06Z Bike: vtomole_: usually a closure is represented as a pointer to code (the function) and a vector (closed-over variables)
2017-07-11T19:50:12Z TeMPOraL: tetero: I agree, but that's a very superficial even for them
2017-07-11T19:50:19Z TeMPOraL: if they can read XML or HTML then they can read
2017-07-11T19:50:39Z Bike: the vector is, say, provided as an argument to the function, and accesses to the closed-over variables are compiled as references into the vector
2017-07-11T19:50:43Z TeMPOraL: and all that "prefix notation sucks" talk really means they don't understand the evaluation order of their "mainstream" language
2017-07-11T19:50:49Z tetero: TeMPOraL: I find that with some things people just shut down. Like introducing a mathematical symbol like sigma, which is really super easy to understand if explained
2017-07-11T19:50:55Z TeMPOraL: i.e. f(a, b, c) is the same as (f a b c), with a paren shifted to the left
2017-07-11T19:51:04Z yaroe: TeMPOraL: I agree with you
2017-07-11T19:51:06Z TeMPOraL: exactly
2017-07-11T19:51:10Z TeMPOraL: I think this is the phenomenon at work
2017-07-11T19:51:48Z tetero: TeMPOraL: cognitive dissonance perhaps?
2017-07-11T19:51:53Z dlowe: well, there's a survival bias in the lisp channel :p
2017-07-11T19:51:55Z tetero: or just neophobia?
2017-07-11T19:52:09Z dlowe: those that can't get over it aren't likely to be here
2017-07-11T19:52:54Z tetero: Aye.
2017-07-11T19:53:18Z Bike: vtomole_: that's one way. and obviously none of that is specific to it being a stack machine.
2017-07-11T19:53:20Z TeMPOraL: dlowe: true, but that doesn't change the fact on the ground: a lot of arguments for "lisp is hard to read" apply exactly the same way to the usual languages
2017-07-11T19:53:32Z TeMPOraL: which suggests that those arguments are bogus; they're rationalizations for something else entirely
2017-07-11T19:53:34Z dlowe: on the other hand, I've never seen anyone fail to get used to lisp when they depended on it for a paycheck
2017-07-11T19:53:52Z tetero: It's that I'm a fairly new Lisper and when I discovered it I happily wanted to show it to my friends, and while I'm not great at Lisp, I don't see how the parens make it hard to read at all. I'm rather happy that I don't have to use { } and ( ) all the time
2017-07-11T19:54:00Z dlowe: TeMPOraL: sure, I'm just saying that "no one here has trouble with it" is good evidence
2017-07-11T19:54:54Z TeMPOraL: also, between IRC, HackerNews and lisp events, I'm not so sure they'd have trouble finding someone to work on Lisp code
2017-07-11T19:55:05Z TeMPOraL: my impression is that there's lots of people who like Lisp and would like a job in it
2017-07-11T19:55:21Z vtomole_: Bike: How about procedures? What does ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 2) translate to on a primitive machine like x86 or stack machine?
2017-07-11T19:56:59Z vtomole_: Bike: I'm not asking for pseudocode, just the general idea of how this would be compiled.
2017-07-11T19:57:03Z Bike: well, that could be inlined as "PUSH 2, PUSH 2, MULT", or it could be "L: DUP, MULT; PUSH 2, JUMP L"
2017-07-11T19:57:05Z Bike: ha ha, too late.
2017-07-11T19:57:24Z vtomole_: Bike even better! I thought it would take longer
2017-07-11T19:57:26Z Bike: well, so you have some code somewhere that's the function body, and then when you want to call the function, you prepare the arguments and then jump to that code.
2017-07-11T19:57:58Z Bike: in my example "L: DUP, MULT" is the function body, and you call it by pushing the argument and then jumping to L.
2017-07-11T19:59:35Z vtomole_: Bike: How about every huge procedures? Bigger stack? Or execute it in small chunks?
2017-07-11T19:59:40Z vtomole_: *very
2017-07-11T20:00:02Z Bike: nothing i have said depends on stack size or anything
2017-07-11T20:00:27Z vtomole_: Bike: What does depend of stack size?
2017-07-11T20:00:48Z vtomole_: *on damn can't type today!
2017-07-11T20:00:57Z Bike: i don't know why you are worried about stack size.
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2017-07-11T20:01:34Z vtomole_: So the size of the procedure doesn't depend on stack size. Got it.
2017-07-11T20:02:30Z Bike: i'm being abstract here. just assume you have infinite space for code and infinite space for a stack.
2017-07-11T20:02:45Z yaroe: OK thank you ! Emphazing on costs and give a few ref places for hiring will help.
2017-07-11T20:02:48Z Bike: most of the time you essentially do, on a modern puter
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2017-07-11T20:06:05Z vtomole_: Bike: How would this:(defun square (x) 	   (* x x)) be different on the stack machine vs the lambda expression I posted earlier?
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2017-07-11T20:06:50Z Bike: the actual function body would probably be identical
2017-07-11T20:07:40Z vtomole_: But the variable "square"? That gets binded to the environment, correct?
2017-07-11T20:08:02Z Bike: well, sure.
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2017-07-11T20:08:36Z vtomole_: And how is this environment defined?
2017-07-11T20:08:58Z Bike: dunno. that's not really related to the stack machine.
2017-07-11T20:09:07Z Bike: basic implementation would be a couple hash tables.
2017-07-11T20:10:44Z vtomole_: When you call (square 4), the stack machine needs to know about the location of "square" body, right? How will a hash table help?
2017-07-11T20:11:06Z jackdaniel: vtomole_: if you are interested in such machines, you may want to read ECL bytecodes compiler/interpreter code (implemented in C)
2017-07-11T20:11:24Z Bike: (gethash 'square global-environment) => a closure or whatever
2017-07-11T20:11:47Z jackdaniel: src/c/compiler.d and src/c/interpreter.d in the source tree (with many comments describing it)
2017-07-11T20:11:51Z vtomole_: jackdaniel: Thanks
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2017-07-11T20:13:09Z p_l: vtomole_: usually the stack machine will have something like PUSH 4, CALL <address of square function>
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2017-07-11T20:13:36Z p_l: where the compiler that generated the code precalculates where everything is
2017-07-11T20:13:56Z p_l: or codes in a way to figure out the address
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2017-07-11T20:14:08Z vtomole_: p_l: ah! That's the connection i was struggling with.
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2017-07-11T20:15:46Z p_l: vtomole_: many cases usually end up in a vector of addresses st a known location, with eqch function having a known offset from the start of the vector
2017-07-11T20:16:18Z p_l: that's how interrupt handlers are called by cpu on pretty much every computer, for example
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2017-07-11T20:18:06Z p_l: vtomole_: a surprisingly good place to learn some basics of how it is all linked together in practice is old 8bit home computer manuals
2017-07-11T20:18:14Z p_l: lots of emulators and code samples
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2017-07-11T20:18:40Z p_l spent childhood reading Atari 65XE OS source...
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2017-07-11T20:22:09Z vtomole_: p_l I'll look into those, i just found this:http://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/12/chip8-cpu/
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2017-07-11T20:22:57Z Bike: looks like a pretty basic register machine. not bad.
2017-07-11T20:25:24Z p_l: generally, simple machine to comprehend behaviour plus good examples etc.
2017-07-11T20:26:26Z p_l: Mind you, simple doesn't mean useless or slow... while MIPS might be a bit big, MMIX is pretty nice and very modern design that is still described fully in one chapter
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2017-07-11T22:50:19Z TruePika: meh, trying to mess around with the CFFI via my Windows CCL instance...
2017-07-11T22:50:36Z TruePika: when I try to load my foreign library...
2017-07-11T22:50:39Z TruePika: Error opening shared library floating.dll : %1 is not a valid Win32 application. .
2017-07-11T22:50:54Z TruePika: I've already confirmed that it is, in fact, a valid DLL
2017-07-11T22:51:23Z TruePika: floating.dll: PE32 executable (DLL) (console) Intel 80386, for MS Windows
2017-07-11T22:56:53Z drmeister: mop ~?
2017-07-11T22:56:53Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ~?.
2017-07-11T22:56:58Z drmeister: mop format ~?
2017-07-11T22:57:19Z drmeister: Was there a way to look up what format directives did?
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2017-07-11T23:00:24Z TruePika: hs format
2017-07-11T23:00:31Z TruePika: hyperspec format
2017-07-11T23:00:35Z TruePika: spec format
2017-07-11T23:00:38Z TruePika: I give up.
2017-07-11T23:01:11Z TruePika: I believe ~? was recursion
2017-07-11T23:02:22Z TruePika: hm, I'm trying to test the DLL, I'm failing to link
2017-07-11T23:02:26Z TruePika checks depends
2017-07-11T23:02:36Z p_l: http://l1sp.org works at least
2017-07-11T23:02:57Z TruePika: hm, none of my functions are exported for some strange reason
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2017-07-11T23:03:38Z TruePika: which might be related to CFFI load failures, but it might not be
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2017-07-12T01:08:55Z defaultxr: is it possible to prevent function redefinition in the same file from causing warnings? warnings will prevent my project from compiling properly for quicklisp. i have a macro that i'm using to generate functions but sometimes i want to override one of the functions that the macro generates. putting those functions in a separate file would make the project needlessly messy and disorganized.
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2017-07-12T01:19:18Z Bike: defaultxr: there are some implementation specific things to try, but i'd really recommend reorganizing your code so that the generated definition is not generated.
2017-07-12T01:20:48Z defaultxr: that's unfortunate but kind of what i figured. thanks.
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2017-07-12T01:53:52Z emaczen: are there SBCL functions for inspecting the heap?
2017-07-12T01:56:43Z Bike: some. what do you want to know?
2017-07-12T01:58:36Z emaczen: Bike: I'm running out of memory a lot, and I would like to get some idea of the cause. I ultimately want to estimate how much memory a program will use during its lifetime.
2017-07-12T02:00:20Z JuanDaugherty: inspecting the implementation details seems the wrong way
2017-07-12T02:00:48Z JuanDaugherty: (unless ur debuggin sbcl)
2017-07-12T02:01:24Z emaczen: JuanDaugherty: well my program is dependent upon inputs
2017-07-12T02:01:36Z JuanDaugherty: inputs?
2017-07-12T02:01:56Z emaczen: the size of the data loaded
2017-07-12T02:02:00Z JuanDaugherty: most programs have them
2017-07-12T02:02:33Z JuanDaugherty: room, profiling etc seems better way to go
2017-07-12T02:02:42Z emaczen: what is room?
2017-07-12T02:02:59Z JuanDaugherty: a function that will report memory usage
2017-07-12T02:03:37Z emaczen: is it compiler-specific?
2017-07-12T02:04:02Z JuanDaugherty: not sure but think so, checking
2017-07-12T02:04:25Z JuanDaugherty: no it's standard
2017-07-12T02:05:02Z emaczen: JuanDaugherty: awesome, it looks to be up the alley that I am looking for.
2017-07-12T02:05:19Z JuanDaugherty: so if you put it in your input loop someplace should show where things go south
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2017-07-12T02:13:05Z emaczen: Are there any space-saving techniques that I should be aware of?
2017-07-12T02:13:27Z emaczen: I'm only aware of declaim compile and setting the space parameter to 3
2017-07-12T02:13:58Z Bike: avoid allocating things
2017-07-12T02:14:03Z Bike: that sounds like a joke but it's basically it
2017-07-12T02:14:21Z Bike: the destructure functions help with that, like nsubstitute and so on
2017-07-12T02:14:25Z Bike: destructive*
2017-07-12T02:15:31Z emaczen: Bike: My program is kind of an in-memory database... maybe I'll have to work on making it a regular database...
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2017-07-12T02:16:00Z Bike: you might still be able to reduce the size of the database
2017-07-12T02:16:11Z Bike: use more packed structures and stuff
2017-07-12T02:16:24Z emaczen: packed-structures?
2017-07-12T02:16:50Z |3b|: typed arrays can help sometimes
2017-07-12T02:17:06Z emaczen: almost everything is an object or list ...
2017-07-12T02:17:57Z |3b|: untyped arrays might be smaller than lists, assuming resizing them to fit data isn't a problem
2017-07-12T02:17:57Z Bike: well, if you have a list of 10k elements, that's 10k cons cells, each of which has two pointers. maybe using arrays would reduce that.
2017-07-12T02:20:13Z Bike: it can be tricky. i had to revert a change i made in cleavir. i eliminated intermediate consing and switched to bit vectors, thought i was clever, but it made the system hang cos the vectors had to be too big
2017-07-12T02:21:11Z emaczen: Bike: yeah, space efficiency in that realm is important. I'm just going to try to figure out my options.
2017-07-12T02:21:17Z |3b|: 32bit lisp might save a bit over 64bit, if the data fits in the smaller address space
2017-07-12T02:22:11Z Bike: base string might be smaller than unicode string, if you can afford to piss off most humans
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2017-07-12T02:22:39Z Bike: or maybe you could use babel to keep strings in memory as utf8. wonder if that works
2017-07-12T02:22:52Z |3b|: yeah, that was my next suggestion :)
2017-07-12T02:23:17Z |3b|: or some other encoding that fits the data well... could even compress it depending on the speed/size tradeoffs
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2017-07-12T03:22:08Z quad__: this has probably been brought up many times before, but what would be an approach to implementing a computed goto (unportably) in any lisp? I thought someone had some sample code somewhere
2017-07-12T03:23:03Z Bike: that depends pretty intimately on the code generator
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2017-07-12T03:28:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-12T03:36:32Z shrdlu68: beach: Morning beach
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2017-07-12T05:16:48Z rk[ghost]: suggestion for a curl-like library?
2017-07-12T05:18:06Z |3b|: drakma can download things over HTTP, probably doesn't do everything curl does though
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2017-07-12T05:25:26Z axion: There is also dexador, which seems to be getting regular updates still https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador
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2017-07-12T05:51:36Z rk[ghost]: |3b|: aye aye. thanks. i just used curl as an example as it is common, but you are right that i mostly just want an HTTP/S client.
2017-07-12T05:51:49Z rk[ghost]: or library rather, i am going to write this "client"
2017-07-12T05:52:05Z rk[ghost]: will check out drakma.. thanksz:)
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2017-07-12T11:40:29Z thetabit: Morning everyone
2017-07-12T11:40:34Z phoe: Hey thetabit
2017-07-12T11:40:42Z thetabit: Quick question I hope
2017-07-12T11:40:54Z phoe: Is the answer 42? :)
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2017-07-12T11:42:01Z thetabit: I am looking for a function that can essentially copy-list-until you find a character. Is there function like this already that I am missing
2017-07-12T11:42:08Z thetabit: ?
2017-07-12T11:42:17Z phoe: Copy a list until you find a character?
2017-07-12T11:42:25Z phoe: Can you give some example input and expected output?
2017-07-12T11:42:28Z thetabit: Sure
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2017-07-12T11:43:42Z thetabit: You have a list '(1 2 3 4 5 6) and begin parsing at 1, then copy each item in the list until you reach say 5 and return '(1 2 3 4 5)
2017-07-12T11:43:51Z thetabit: basically a substring only for lists
2017-07-12T11:44:06Z phoe: 5 is not a character
2017-07-12T11:44:21Z phoe: do you mean, until you find something, let's say, EQL to an object?
2017-07-12T11:44:49Z thetabit: Let me try another example
2017-07-12T11:46:56Z phoe: because it seems that you can combine POSITION (for getting the element's index) with SUBSEQ (for getting a subsequence of elements of all elements until the found element's index)
2017-07-12T11:47:19Z thetabit: the List: '(#\Stx #\G #\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5 #\Fs #\A #\M #\0 #\1) and I want to copy between the #\Stx and #\Fs so the result would be '(#\Stx #\G #\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5 #\Fs)
2017-07-12T11:47:23Z thetabit: Something like that
2017-07-12T11:49:14Z thetabit: Oh nice phoe
2017-07-12T11:49:17Z thetabit: I see what you mean
2017-07-12T11:49:26Z thetabit: Let me give that a shot
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2017-07-12T11:50:14Z phoe: thetabit: combine POSITION and SUBSEQ, it should give you what you want.
2017-07-12T11:50:45Z thetabit: Yes! it works!
2017-07-12T11:50:49Z phoe: This will work if you have only one #\Fs because POSITION will find the leftmost element.
2017-07-12T11:50:52Z phoe: <3
2017-07-12T11:51:07Z thetabit: Thanks!
2017-07-12T11:51:24Z phoe: No problem - poke us if you have more questions.
2017-07-12T11:52:15Z Bike: (loop for c in list collect c until (eql c mark)) is a little uglier but avoids an iteration
2017-07-12T11:54:06Z phoe: yes, you only travel the list once in Bike's solution.
2017-07-12T11:54:18Z thetabit: hmm
2017-07-12T11:54:26Z thetabit: which would be better
2017-07-12T11:54:29Z phoe: beach: I will need a link to your chapter about protocols.
2017-07-12T11:54:45Z phoe: thetabit: do you understand LOOP well enough to be able to read and understand this line that Bike posted?
2017-07-12T11:55:36Z Bike: you should define a function like (defun subseq-at (endmark) (subseq ... (position ...))), use that, and then later if it's actually a problem switch the definition to use the loop
2017-07-12T11:55:38Z thetabit: Yes, and I think that it might actually fit more inline with what I am designing
2017-07-12T11:56:12Z thetabit: It will be good practice to do both I think
2017-07-12T11:56:15Z phoe: Bike has a point there with defining a helper function.
2017-07-12T11:56:17Z thetabit: :D
2017-07-12T11:57:03Z phoe: beach: Or is that chapter somewhere public, like, on your Github?
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2017-07-12T11:58:58Z Bike: phoe: is it this? http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
2017-07-12T11:59:31Z phoe: Bike: yes! Thank you.
2017-07-12T11:59:58Z phoe: I should put a link to this somewhere visible because I'm looking for this document for the sixth time of my life or something.
2017-07-12T12:00:24Z phoe puts it under the #lisp-pl IRC bot.
2017-07-12T12:00:31Z Bike: i googled "site:metamodular.com protocol"
2017-07-12T12:00:39Z Bike: actually protocols.
2017-07-12T12:00:41Z phoe: Bike: d'oh
2017-07-12T12:01:02Z phoe: I didn't think of it
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2017-07-12T12:12:42Z thetabit: Bike I like your loop solution, works like a charm. I think it is more readable but that's probably because I have using Scala and it feels similar
2017-07-12T12:12:54Z Bike: as you like
2017-07-12T12:16:38Z phoe: thetabit: functional composition, like with POSITION/SUBSEQ, is pretty standard in almost all languages, where LOOP is a pretty peculiar macro - it's English-ish in how it's written out. Some people like it, some people don't.
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2017-07-12T12:17:05Z beach: phoe: It is not public.  And I revised it after my favorite co-author read and criticized it.
2017-07-12T12:17:19Z beach: phoe: Let me give you a link to a new version.  Give me a minute
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2017-07-12T12:18:53Z beach: phoe: OK, same link as before.  New version.
2017-07-12T12:18:54Z beach:  
2017-07-12T12:19:00Z phoe: beach: thanks.
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2017-07-12T12:19:15Z phoe: I actually have a question about the old version, let me see if it still holds in the new one...
2017-07-12T12:19:22Z beach: Sure.
2017-07-12T12:19:55Z phoe: Hah, you now use fancier symbols in 5.2!
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2017-07-12T12:20:48Z phoe: I actually wonder about 5.2.2, about the partitions. Why must there not exist such a partition? Because then it means that we have two protocols and not one?
2017-07-12T12:20:49Z beach: Yeah.  It gets a bit more precise that way.
2017-07-12T12:20:59Z beach: phoe: Correct.
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2017-07-12T12:22:22Z beach: phoe: See the example in the last paragraph of 5.4.  You can see that there are two independent protocols there.
2017-07-12T12:22:22Z phoe: Oh, now 5.2 mentions types participating in/introduced by the protocol.
2017-07-12T12:22:28Z phoe: Let me chew on this for a moment.
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2017-07-12T12:22:46Z beach: Take your time.
2017-07-12T12:24:09Z phoe: So a protocol is a tuple (τ, ω) where τ consists only the *introduced* types.
2017-07-12T12:24:12Z phoe: And might be empty.
2017-07-12T12:24:19Z beach: Right.
2017-07-12T12:24:32Z phoe: This means that I can introduce a protocol that has no "new" types, like, operates only on standard CL types.
2017-07-12T12:24:45Z beach: Yes, that's the implication.
2017-07-12T12:25:05Z phoe: Hah, I like it the new way. It feels nicer.
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2017-07-12T12:25:54Z beach: It does.  I am very lucky to have such a good co-author.  Everyone deserves one, but few are as lucky as I am.
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2017-07-12T12:27:21Z phoe: "Frequently, the set of participating types is omitted from the description of the protocol."
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2017-07-12T12:27:51Z phoe: You mean that these types can "happen" inside the operations, but there is no complete set of these types imprinted into the protocol itself?
2017-07-12T12:28:09Z beach: Yeah, usually because anything (T) will do or because they are integers or some other mundane type.
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2017-07-12T12:28:33Z beach: CONS does not explicitly mention that T participates, but that is in fact the case.
2017-07-12T12:29:23Z phoe: I wonder, are there any requirements for describing the participating types inside a protocol?
2017-07-12T12:29:25Z beach: In a window protocol, you might have (find-child window child-number), but you might omit that (INTEGER 0) is a participating type.
2017-07-12T12:29:47Z beach: phoe: You have to remember that this definition is something I invented.
2017-07-12T12:29:56Z phoe: Like, if an operation accepts something of type FOO or returns something of type FOO, does the protocol need to specify what a FOO is?
2017-07-12T12:30:24Z beach: I would say that it depends on how prominent FOO is.   If it is T, it can probably be left out.
2017-07-12T12:30:26Z phoe: beach: I remember, that's why I'm speculating. I'm also trying to understand it better, including the corner cases that appear on my mind.
2017-07-12T12:30:44Z phoe: Leaving out T sounds sane.
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2017-07-12T12:31:06Z beach: You would mention it some other way, like "where X can be any object".
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2017-07-12T12:31:25Z phoe: Which is synonymous to "where X is of type T". Right.
2017-07-12T12:31:29Z beach: Right.
2017-07-12T12:31:52Z beach: But you would not see a special line like ... "T [participating type]".
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2017-07-12T12:32:28Z phoe: I would only expect such stuff in very formal documents.
2017-07-12T12:33:19Z beach: Yes, but I do describe protocols this way.  And I do mention the types [usually classes] that are defined by the protocol, in that kind of way.
2017-07-12T12:33:34Z phoe nods.
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2017-07-12T12:34:56Z phoe: Oh, the last paragraph in 5.4 answers my question. You added it in the new version.
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2017-07-12T12:35:24Z beach: I think it was there before actually.
2017-07-12T12:35:46Z phoe: Nope - I have it printed, it's not there.
2017-07-12T12:35:50Z beach: Oh, OK.
2017-07-12T12:36:22Z beach: Maybe I had an intermediate version where it was present, but I never showed that version to you.
2017-07-12T12:36:26Z phoe: Yes, most likely.
2017-07-12T12:38:04Z phoe: I like this new version. Thanks!
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2017-07-12T12:41:54Z beach: phoe: Great!  Let me know if you have additional remarks, once you have digested it.
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2017-07-12T12:42:48Z phoe: 5.5 Completeness feels a little bit too teasing to me.
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2017-07-12T12:43:34Z phoe: Since you want to focus only on complete protocols, I'd like to hear a little bit more about why we only want complete protocols and what is a complete protocol.
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2017-07-12T12:44:32Z beach: I know.  But I have no definition for you at this point.  Maybe I'll find a definition of incomplete protocol at some later point.
2017-07-12T12:44:40Z phoe: Asking the reader in this place to find such a definition does not feel like a proper thing to do here, at least to me - I don't really have the background to provide an answer as formal as a definition here, especially that 5.2 contains a pretty formal definition.
2017-07-12T12:44:42Z beach: But you see my example, right?
2017-07-12T12:44:47Z phoe: Yes, I see.
2017-07-12T12:44:55Z beach: I am not asking the reader.
2017-07-12T12:45:00Z beach: The footnote is for me.
2017-07-12T12:45:05Z phoe: Oh. Ooooh.
2017-07-12T12:45:11Z beach: This is not published material.
2017-07-12T12:45:20Z beach: The footnote will disappear before publication.
2017-07-12T12:45:25Z phoe: I know. I just didn't realize this. :)
2017-07-12T12:45:46Z phoe: I'd prefix this with a TODO if I was doing such work.
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2017-07-12T12:46:35Z beach: I don't need it myself.  I guess I could quit showing my stuff to people like you. :)
2017-07-12T12:46:44Z phoe: ;_;
2017-07-12T12:46:47Z phoe: Please don't.
2017-07-12T12:46:56Z beach: Joking!
2017-07-12T12:46:58Z phoe: One part of a definition of a complete protocol that comes to me right now is, a protocol is complete if it does not "waste" information.
2017-07-12T12:47:01Z phoe: I know! So am I.
2017-07-12T12:47:22Z beach: Well, the problem with your definition is that you now have to define "waste".
2017-07-12T12:47:36Z phoe: Unreachable by any other part of the protocol.
2017-07-12T12:47:45Z beach: Yeah, that's a good start.
2017-07-12T12:47:54Z phoe: With operations CONS and CAR, everything that you provide as the second argument to CONS is now unreachable.
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2017-07-12T12:48:26Z beach: Better: "does not in any way influence the result of any subsequent operation"
2017-07-12T12:48:35Z phoe: Sounds better, yes.
2017-07-12T12:48:46Z phoe: Because this way, CONS just generates garbage.
2017-07-12T12:48:50Z beach: Yeah, I think you are on the right track.
2017-07-12T12:49:31Z phoe: And here comes the question - how do you actually prove that a protocol P is complete or incomplete?
2017-07-12T12:49:58Z beach: I never ask myself such questions. :)
2017-07-12T12:50:21Z phoe: Geez, welcome into formal logic.
2017-07-12T12:50:36Z phoe: Now that's a pretty tough question for me, too. :P
2017-07-12T12:50:48Z beach: Seriously, proving that is not the point.  The point is to give the reader an idea of how to structure software.
2017-07-12T12:51:14Z beach: ... so that he or she avoids putting CDR in a different protocol.
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2017-07-12T12:52:12Z phoe: Yes, I see.
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2017-07-12T12:57:39Z phoe: So basically - we want to avoid operations that do not contribute to the creation, retrieval, modification or destruction of any data.
2017-07-12T12:58:02Z phoe: Or otherwise do not influence the result of any subsequent operation, as you said.
2017-07-12T12:58:06Z beach: Include "side effects" in that list.
2017-07-12T12:58:24Z phoe: Or producing any side effects.
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2017-07-12T12:58:50Z phoe: So, a complete protocol is the one that adheres to this.
2017-07-12T12:59:03Z beach: Yeah, it would seem that way.
2017-07-12T12:59:18Z phoe: An incomplete protocol is the contrary.
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2017-07-12T13:00:39Z beach: I think I can leave out creation, retrieval and destruction.  It is enough to say, that if there is an argument of some operation such that no value given to that argument in any way influences the result (i.e, return value or side effect) of that operation or any subsequent operation.
2017-07-12T13:01:06Z beach: then the protocol is incomplete.
2017-07-12T13:01:15Z phoe: I think it's correct.
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2017-07-12T13:01:48Z beach: I should write it down while it is fresh in memory.
2017-07-12T13:01:53Z phoe: It's just that, informally speaking, "creation, retrieval, destruction" feels much more obvious to an average programmer like me.
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2017-07-12T13:02:03Z phoe: beach: remember that you also have the IRC logs. :)
2017-07-12T13:02:19Z beach: Yes, but I would have to remember to consult them.  It's that bad. :(
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2017-07-12T13:04:49Z phoe: It's just my opinion here, but I'd like a two-part description with a formal and informal part, such as, "a protocol is complete if there is no argument of some operation such that (...). Informally speaking, a protocol is incomplete if it contains operations that do not contribute to the (...) or have side effects."
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2017-07-12T13:11:53Z beach: Yeah, you are probably right.  Right now I just want to jot things down so that I won't forget.
2017-07-12T13:12:45Z phoe: beach: no problem, I'll most likely remind you the moment I see next versions of this document later again.
2017-07-12T13:12:56Z beach: That would be good.
2017-07-12T13:15:52Z phoe: Noted. My reminder tool will remind me to remind you.
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2017-07-12T13:16:44Z beach: Amazing.
2017-07-12T13:16:59Z phoe: What a wonderful time to live in. :)
2017-07-12T13:17:12Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-07-12T13:23:09Z phoe: mop initialize-instance
2017-07-12T13:23:09Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for initialize-instance.
2017-07-12T13:23:39Z phoe: clhs initialize-instance
2017-07-12T13:23:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm
2017-07-12T13:23:43Z Bike: i don't think mop adds any more behavior
2017-07-12T13:24:08Z phoe: Yes, I just was wondering about the define-protocol-class macro that I am using - the one from McCLIM.
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2017-07-12T13:24:53Z phoe: Petty stuff, but https://github.com/antifuchs/mcclim/blob/master/protocol-classes.lisp#L39 - shouldn't this be a :BEFORE method instead of :AFTER method to avoid allocating an instance that will not be returned anyway because of an error?
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2017-07-12T13:25:24Z phoe: Or should we adhere to the convention of :AFTER being the conventional way of writing "constructors"?
2017-07-12T13:25:29Z Bike: allocate-instance is called before initialize-instance is called
2017-07-12T13:25:42Z Bike: you couldn't take class-of something that doesn't exist
2017-07-12T13:25:53Z phoe: Oh wait - I got the order wrong.
2017-07-12T13:26:02Z phoe: So :BEFORE does not change a thing here.
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2017-07-12T13:26:54Z Bike: you could define a method on allocate instance, but honestly why not just let the gc handle it? it's not like it's going to happen very often
2017-07-12T13:26:56Z phoe: So this should be a :BEFORE method of allocate-instance, in order to avoid creating garbage.
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2017-07-12T13:27:28Z phoe: Yes, I know, this isn't going to happen often. I'm just training my brain now.
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2017-07-12T14:18:10Z phoe: What is the overhead of having a zero-argument generic function?
2017-07-12T14:18:36Z phoe: And therefore, only one possible method that can be called for such a GF?
2017-07-12T14:19:07Z phoe: Compared to a normal function, I mean.
2017-07-12T14:22:51Z Bike: why are you asking
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2017-07-12T14:23:13Z phoe: I don't know if I should (defun foo () ...) or (defgeneric foo () ...) (defmethod foo () ...)
2017-07-12T14:23:18Z Bike: but i imagine most implementations wouldn't bother optimizing, so it would still go through the discriminating function and all
2017-07-12T14:23:32Z Bike: and it wouldn't necessarily be "one method", there's still around and before and stuff
2017-07-12T14:23:37Z phoe: oh - correct
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2017-07-12T14:23:40Z Bike: why would you do (defgeneric foo () ...)
2017-07-12T14:23:56Z phoe: to separate the interface from the implementation
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2017-07-12T14:25:05Z Bike: that's pretty wacky. you could declaim an ftype though.
2017-07-12T14:25:42Z phoe: that's what I do nowadays
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2017-07-12T14:26:57Z phoe: but then it looks somewhat weird, when I declare the protocols, all functions that take some arguments are defgenerics
2017-07-12T14:27:11Z phoe: so why bother with some weird defuns in case of no arguments
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2017-07-12T14:29:10Z Bike: well, go for it then.
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2017-07-12T17:20:48Z kang0: Do I know anyone here?
2017-07-12T17:20:56Z kang0: Return to my Chanel; mentor
2017-07-12T17:21:16Z kang0: Looking for my mentors
2017-07-12T17:21:41Z kang0: What's diff between lisp and elisp
2017-07-12T17:22:14Z kang0: Both of them are related closely with emacs?
2017-07-12T17:22:48Z Bike: elisp is the lisp that's in emacs. lisp itself predates emacs by decades.
2017-07-12T17:22:56Z jackdaniel: this entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language) has all the information you need regarding lisp dialects
2017-07-12T17:23:39Z jackdaniel: paragraph "Major dialects" summarizes the current state of affairs
2017-07-12T17:24:36Z kang0: Ok
2017-07-12T17:24:53Z phoe: kang0: Lisp most commonly refers to Common Lisp, but may also refer to the general family of languages
2017-07-12T17:25:11Z phoe: elisp is Emacs Lisp, the interpreted dialect of Lisp used to program Emacs, the editor
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2017-07-12T17:25:25Z kang0: Quite confusing to  understand
2017-07-12T17:25:46Z phoe: Common Lisp is a language
2017-07-12T17:25:49Z phoe: Emacs Lisp is a language
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2017-07-12T17:26:14Z kang0: How both are connected or related
2017-07-12T17:26:18Z phoe: Lisp is an ambiguous term that might refer to a family of languages, to the original LISP language, or nowadays to Common Lisp
2017-07-12T17:26:25Z kang0: Is this channel for common lisp?
2017-07-12T17:26:33Z phoe: Yes, this channel is for Common Lisp
2017-07-12T17:26:43Z random-nick: common lisp and emacs lisp share predecessors
2017-07-12T17:26:55Z phoe: They are related because they share many traits and have very similar syntax, in addition to what random-nick said
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2017-07-12T17:35:59Z shka: kang0: lisp family is rather diverse
2017-07-12T17:36:15Z kang0: Who use it
2017-07-12T17:36:23Z shka: I do
2017-07-12T17:36:25Z shka: :-)
2017-07-12T17:36:46Z kang0: Anyone uses it as replacement of python or c?
2017-07-12T17:37:01Z kang0: How you use it And why
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2017-07-12T17:42:47Z phoe: kang0: I'd answer you, but you just disappeared :(
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2017-07-12T17:52:50Z emaczen: can someone give me an example of SBCL executing something from the terminal? I tried: (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/local/bin/brew '("search" "sbcl"))
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2017-07-12T17:53:19Z shka: emaczen: don't know how to use sbcl directly
2017-07-12T17:53:20Z shka: BUT
2017-07-12T17:53:20Z emaczen: the repl-output just says #<SB-IMPL::PROCESS :EXITED 0> after a second or two
2017-07-12T17:53:32Z shka: it looks find
2017-07-12T17:53:35Z shka: *fine
2017-07-12T17:53:38Z emaczen: I don't see any output in *inferior-lisp* either
2017-07-12T17:53:46Z shka: you won't
2017-07-12T17:53:56Z shka: you will need to ask slime to redirect output
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2017-07-12T17:55:16Z shka: (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) ; show print output in Emacs
2017-07-12T17:56:03Z shka: emaczen: try the above
2017-07-12T17:56:12Z emaczen: shka: it didn't work
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2017-07-12T17:56:47Z shka: uh
2017-07-12T17:57:00Z shka: ok, in such case
2017-07-12T17:57:21Z shka: i was using stuff from uiop and it worked like you want
2017-07-12T17:57:32Z shka: give me a second
2017-07-12T17:57:59Z shka: yeah
2017-07-12T17:58:09Z shka: emaczen: try using uiop:run-program
2017-07-12T17:58:27Z shka: at the very least, it returned something on linux
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2017-07-12T18:20:23Z thetabit: How do I get with-open-file to read all lines? When I use this http://paste.lisp.org/display/350698 I only get the first line
2017-07-12T18:20:56Z shka: thetabit: loop
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2017-07-12T18:21:17Z Bike: with-open-file just opens the file.read-line is what reads a line, and you only called it once
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2017-07-12T18:27:22Z thetabit: Okay so, (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line do (something with line))
2017-07-12T18:27:46Z thetabit: seems to work
2017-07-12T18:29:55Z phoe: emaczen: are you able to use UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM or UIOP:LAUNCH-PROGRAM?
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2017-07-12T19:05:38Z jackdaniel: emacsoma`: (uiop:run-program "ls" :output :string)
2017-07-12T19:05:44Z phoe: ^
2017-07-12T19:06:07Z jackdaniel: emacsoma`: (uiop:run-program "ls" :output *standard-output*)
2017-07-12T19:06:33Z jackdaniel: etc etc, external-program is a saner alternative
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2017-07-12T19:27:31Z drmeister: With trivial-http:http-get -   I should just be able to read the contents of the stream into a string - shouldn't I?
2017-07-12T19:27:32Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/7XWgRFt.png
2017-07-12T19:27:49Z drmeister: The URL works in my browser but when I read the stream I just get end-of-file
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2017-07-12T19:29:24Z Bike: you got 301 Moved Permanently
2017-07-12T19:29:55Z Bike: the location field tells you where it was moved to
2017-07-12T19:30:05Z Bike: your browser handles this automatically, i guess
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2017-07-12T19:34:07Z drmeister: I see - I didn't read the header.
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2017-07-12T19:35:28Z drmeister: Yes - that's the ticket - thank you.
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2017-07-12T19:55:25Z drmeister: I think I have everything in place - but still - white screen.
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2017-07-12T19:55:28Z drmeister: Grrrr
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2017-07-12T20:06:13Z drmeister: Hmmm
2017-07-12T20:06:43Z drmeister: The only way that the 'loaded' slot gets set to T  is when responding to a message from the browser.
2017-07-12T20:06:51Z drmeister: I don't handle messages yet.
2017-07-12T20:06:55Z drmeister: Working...
2017-07-12T20:07:14Z drmeister: As in here:   https://github.com/drmeister/spy-ipykernel/blob/master/nglview/widget.py#L904
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2017-07-12T20:16:57Z drmeister: custom messages are not making it all the way to the handler.
2017-07-12T20:17:19Z drmeister: The log contains "method custom"  from here:   https://github.com/clasp-developers/cl-jupyter/blob/chris/src/widget.lisp#L254
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2017-07-12T20:18:13Z Bike: think you meant this to be in #clasp
2017-07-12T20:18:15Z drmeister: Whoops --  wrong group for a while
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2017-07-12T20:18:19Z drmeister: Sorry folks.
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2017-07-12T21:06:13Z random_numbers: How small do ECL executables get?
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2017-07-12T21:34:25Z oleo: if you optimize for size
2017-07-12T21:34:36Z oleo: pretty close to -Os on C i suppose.....
2017-07-12T21:36:26Z oleo: (declaim (optimize (size 3)))
2017-07-12T21:36:41Z oleo: err s/size/space/
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2017-07-12T21:37:16Z random_numbers: Ah that's nice.
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2017-07-12T22:12:33Z random_numbers: Found something fun: http://www.ulisp.com/
2017-07-12T22:12:44Z random_numbers: (Lisp for the Arduino and MSP430)
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2017-07-12T22:18:46Z akkad: well the binaries are tiny, but they link to libecl
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2017-07-12T22:33:34Z random_numbers: I see.
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2017-07-13T00:28:34Z tetero: Is it fast? (ulisp)
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2017-07-13T00:40:04Z random_numbers: I don't currently have a board to test it at the moment, unfortunately.
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2017-07-13T02:20:38Z aeth: tetero: This is a channel for Common Lisp, often just referred to as Lisp. ##lisp is for the Lisp family of languages. The fastest Lisp you'll find, though, is probably SBCL, a CL implementation. There are also some fast Schemes, but the popular/complete Schemes aren't as fast as those.
2017-07-13T02:21:25Z aeth: It looks like uLisp is very similar to Common Lisp, perhaps even a subset, but it's a subset that doesn't include many things you'd want if you wanted to write very fast CL. This appears to be all of it: http://www.ulisp.com/show?3L
2017-07-13T02:22:03Z |3b| suspects not having things is good if you are writing for arduino :p
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2017-07-13T02:22:06Z aeth: (It's not quite a subset because it has a different loop.)
2017-07-13T02:22:20Z aeth: Notably missing are arrays, type declarations, and multiple return values.
2017-07-13T02:22:30Z aeth: And defstruct.
2017-07-13T02:22:45Z aeth: If I wanted a fast CL subset, I'd include all of these.
2017-07-13T02:22:53Z |3b|: not on a system with 2k of ram
2017-07-13T02:23:32Z |3b|: (well, maybe you would, but i'd probably just go straight to memory access instead of full CL arrays)
2017-07-13T02:24:56Z aeth: Oh, I forgot to mention that SBCL is fast at the expense of RAM (64 bit SBCL takes about 100 MB as a minimum on startup). And the style I use generally prioritizes CPU at the expense of RAM, too.
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2017-07-13T02:25:23Z aeth: But a lot of the principles are in common, and so a slim CL would have many shared features with what you'd want in a fast SBCL or CCL program.
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2017-07-13T02:30:37Z |3b|: ulisp looks nicer than the last microcontroller lisp i looked at, may have to consider that next time i think about doing hardware stuff
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2017-07-13T02:33:08Z Bike: missing type declarations seems weird. is it not cross compiled?
2017-07-13T02:33:45Z Bike: maybe there just aren't bignums?
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2017-07-13T02:40:00Z aeth: Bike: ah, good point
2017-07-13T02:40:39Z Bike: "slim CL" is kind of an oxymoron though
2017-07-13T02:40:47Z aeth: I guess its numbers are just a signed 16 bit integer, and that's it?
2017-07-13T02:40:55Z aeth: I'm guessing this because it says its max is 32767
2017-07-13T02:41:07Z Bike: oh, i missed that
2017-07-13T02:41:19Z aeth: I did, too, until you said it.
2017-07-13T02:41:34Z |3b|: yeah, 16 bit int, symbol or cons seem to be only types
2017-07-13T02:41:48Z aeth: "slim CL" as in, it looks mostly like a subset of CL, instead of being Scheme-style or radically different and just parenthesized.
2017-07-13T02:41:57Z random_numbers: The only one I know of that's cross-compiled is ChickenScheme. Then again I only started looking today.
2017-07-13T02:42:03Z aeth: Some "Lisps" really are just random languages in s-expression form
2017-07-13T02:42:19Z random_numbers: Any other one you'd recommend? (I discount Hy and Clojure. They're interpreted, not compiled.)
2017-07-13T02:42:40Z random_numbers: Fuzzier to say that with Clojure but whatever.
2017-07-13T02:42:54Z aeth: Bike: it looks like it even has funcall, which suggests Lisp-2
2017-07-13T02:43:31Z aeth: On the surface, it looks very CL-style, although it's disappointing that it doesn't have arrays or structs.
2017-07-13T02:43:44Z Bike: clojure isn't compiled?
2017-07-13T02:44:01Z aeth: Bike: I'm guessing random_numbers is talking about AOT native compilation
2017-07-13T02:44:09Z |3b|: from their benchmarks seems to be ~500-1000 times less efficient than sbcl by instruction count
2017-07-13T02:44:33Z random_numbers: aeth: Bike: Yes. I'm disregarding VMs because those aren't quite practical on small SoCs.
2017-07-13T02:44:48Z Bike: i mean, i thought it was compiled to JVMese
2017-07-13T02:44:58Z |3b|: hard to say how much of that is from running heavily recursive but otherwise simple benchmarks
2017-07-13T02:44:59Z random_numbers: It is. It's never truly interpreted.
2017-07-13T02:45:08Z Bike: kay, makes sense.
2017-07-13T02:45:36Z random_numbers: Hy is transformed into Python AST and executed the same as native code so it depends on circumstances. Still all runs on Python VM.
2017-07-13T02:45:38Z Bike: not having arrays is kind of weird. structs would be more difficult since you'd probably want something more like c structs. or at least with typed slots.
2017-07-13T02:45:55Z Bike: if you don't have typed slots a struct is just an array with newtype, who gives a fuck
2017-07-13T02:46:07Z |3b| is more disappointed by lack of macros than structs or arrays :p
2017-07-13T02:46:10Z random_numbers: Being used to Clojure I'd say that if maps aren't too heavy/slow, they can do pretty well in a pinch.
2017-07-13T02:46:28Z Bike: whoa, whoa, no macros
2017-07-13T02:46:30Z Bike: fucked uuuuup
2017-07-13T02:46:48Z aeth: Bike: I use typed slots in my structs in CL, and I assume that they do something in SBCL.
2017-07-13T02:46:53Z Bike: no point then. might as well use a macroassembler
2017-07-13T02:47:02Z Bike: aeth: they do
2017-07-13T02:47:07Z random_numbers: Really? Well. That's kind of a significant change that doesn't make that much sense. It's not as though macros are ever executed at run-time.
2017-07-13T02:48:32Z |3b| also doesn't see memory access anywhere :(
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2017-07-13T02:55:03Z random_numbers: That's a shame.
2017-07-13T02:55:15Z random_numbers: Are there any Lisps that transpile nicely to C?
2017-07-13T02:55:33Z Quadresce: What does "transpile nicely" mean
2017-07-13T02:55:48Z Quadresce: The abstractions of lisps exceed C a lot
2017-07-13T02:56:19Z random_numbers: Mostly that it does interop properly and compiles. I'm not asking for something that generates legible/maintainable code.
2017-07-13T02:56:42Z Quadresce: ECL for Common Lisp
2017-07-13T02:56:52Z Quadresce: Chicken Scheme for scheme
2017-07-13T02:57:10Z random_numbers: Heard of Chicken, didn't know ECL actually transpiled too.
2017-07-13T02:57:44Z Quadresce: I think MOCL too?
2017-07-13T02:58:09Z random_numbers: Huh. Mobile Lisp. That's nice and def something I'll look up.
2017-07-13T02:58:28Z random_numbers: Commercial though. Shame.
2017-07-13T02:58:53Z Quadresce: It targets commercial platforms. Seems reasonable.
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2017-07-13T02:59:10Z random_numbers: Perhaps, but it means I can't get in.
2017-07-13T02:59:46Z random_numbers: Clojure's a fair bit easier to use on mobile in comparison.
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2017-07-13T03:06:41Z vtomole: I can't hack clojure cause the arguments for procedures are represented as vectors instead of lists. (square brackets, uh)
2017-07-13T03:07:41Z random_numbers: It has its idiomatics pecularities, yeah.
2017-07-13T03:08:02Z random_numbers: I picked it up as a pretty-looking functional-first language.
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2017-07-13T03:12:02Z vtomole: haha yeah it's cool. Im just petty.
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2017-07-13T03:20:39Z tetero: aeth: Only reason I asked was because someone just mentioned it ;)
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2017-07-13T03:21:50Z random_numbers: tetero: Yeah, I found it and wondered what people thought of it and if they'd heard of it. Some people dug into it far more than I expected and found it was somewhat lacking.
2017-07-13T03:22:17Z tetero: Ah
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2017-07-13T03:34:51Z akkad: Quadresce: actually for mobile LambdaNative uses gambit and is much more performant than chicken.
2017-07-13T03:51:03Z random_numbers: Having read through some of ECL's docs, I like what they did with the implementation.
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2017-07-13T03:52:44Z random_numbers: akkad: That's rather neat.
2017-07-13T03:57:38Z random_numbers: LambdaNative is very nice.
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2017-07-13T04:36:40Z aeth: tetero: sorry, my brain's parser must be broken. I didn't parse the "ulisp" within the URL further up and thought that you were the first mention
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2017-07-13T05:09:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-13T05:12:02Z akkad: gambit is amazingly fast
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2017-07-13T05:21:58Z tetero: aeth: np
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2017-07-13T05:33:44Z reinuseslisp: does any library offer a portable way to get cpu threads?
2017-07-13T05:34:19Z reinuseslisp: something like a trivial-cpu
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2017-07-13T05:39:53Z akkad: linux yes.
2017-07-13T05:40:53Z random_numbers: akkad: Gambit-C?
2017-07-13T05:45:27Z akkad: yes.
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2017-07-13T05:53:32Z mfiano_: Am I correct to assume static-vectors works for sbcl on windows?
2017-07-13T05:53:45Z mfiano_: By the way, this is axion on another computer
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2017-07-13T06:22:26Z shka: reinuseslisp: system threads\
2017-07-13T06:22:45Z shka: reinuseslisp: https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/
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2017-07-13T06:26:10Z reinuseslisp: shka: bt is for (logical?) threads, I mean something like unix's sysconf(_SC_NPROCESSORS_ONLN)
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2017-07-13T06:26:38Z reinuseslisp: or C++'s std::thread::hardware_concurrency()
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2017-07-13T06:29:14Z shka: rigth
2017-07-13T06:29:20Z shka: never cared about it
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2017-07-13T06:40:32Z jackdaniel: reinuseslisp: bordeaux threads is just a portability layer which maps into threads in common lisp implementation
2017-07-13T06:40:40Z jackdaniel: most implementations use native threads
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2017-07-13T06:41:00Z reinuseslisp: yes, I know that
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2017-07-13T06:42:27Z reinuseslisp: I just didn't find a word to differentiate CPU cores/threads and application (bordeaux-) threads
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2017-07-13T06:51:21Z jackdaniel: one way to do that with cffi is
2017-07-13T06:51:26Z jackdaniel: (cffi:defcfun "sysconf" :long (name :int))
2017-07-13T06:51:32Z jackdaniel: (sysconf 84)
2017-07-13T06:52:15Z jackdaniel: you can define 84 as constant to give it a meaningful name
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2017-07-13T06:56:43Z reinuseslisp: jackdaniel: yes, but win32 seems not to offer that API
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2017-07-13T06:56:51Z reinuseslisp: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/150355/programmatically-find-the-number-of-cores-on-a-machine
2017-07-13T06:57:16Z reinuseslisp: #+windows may work
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2017-07-13T07:11:46Z jackdaniel: there are bindings to openmp for CL, if that's not an overkill, you could use that
2017-07-13T07:12:48Z jackdaniel: but I can't find the link, so maybe I'm wrong
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2017-07-13T07:50:03Z schweers: does anyone have an idea why `prin1' or `format' with "~S" would emit a linefeed after printing a symbol?  It seems to me that this only happens when printing on a socket stream.
2017-07-13T07:53:21Z jackdaniel: they don't: (with-output-to-string (s) (prin1 'a s)) ;-> "A"
2017-07-13T07:53:32Z jackdaniel: it might be return value in REPL what calls terpri
2017-07-13T07:54:16Z schweers: that’s the weird thing: when I output to a string all is well
2017-07-13T07:54:34Z schweers: I could swear that the code in question worked before, I’m really stumped why this happens now
2017-07-13T07:55:22Z schweers: also I’m not doing anything weird with the readtable, at least for this test
2017-07-13T07:56:12Z jackdaniel: some minimal test case to reproduce?
2017-07-13T07:56:29Z schweers: working on it
2017-07-13T07:59:26Z jdz: Printing has nothing to do with readtables.
2017-07-13T08:00:11Z schweers: damn, on the minimal test all is well
2017-07-13T08:00:26Z schweers: jdz: readtable-case has influence on how symbols are printed
2017-07-13T08:01:12Z jdz: True that.  But in this case I suspect the problem is in pretty-printing.
2017-07-13T08:01:49Z schweers: well, I have to change the readtable-case as I’m interacting with a scheme, but that’s disabled for now
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2017-07-13T08:03:59Z schweers: wait, pp should not be turned on, that’s why I’m using prin1 and/or format with "~S"
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2017-07-13T08:05:24Z schweers: well, I can’t reproduce it outside of my program, which I find quite disconcerting.  Oh well, more debugging it is.
2017-07-13T08:05:28Z jdz: PRIN1 only binds *PRINT-ESCAPE* to true, nothing about layout control.
2017-07-13T08:05:48Z schweers: that’s exactly what I too thought.
2017-07-13T08:06:26Z schweers: Well, if no one else has an idea, I suspect it really is a problem with some other code I’ve written, i.e. the problem is not me misunderstanding `prin1'
2017-07-13T08:07:15Z jdz: Have you tried binding *PRINT-PRETTY* to NIL?
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2017-07-13T08:08:10Z schweers: no, I’l try it
2017-07-13T08:08:29Z schweers: ahhh, thank you so much, that did it!
2017-07-13T08:08:56Z schweers: somehow that possibility completely escaped me
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2017-07-13T08:10:05Z jackdaniel: (setf *print-ugly* t) ;)
2017-07-13T08:10:23Z schweers: hehe
2017-07-13T08:10:40Z schweers: pff, my expressions should be pretty enough ;)
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2017-07-13T11:04:34Z phoe: Is there any function that, given a cons and a value, destructively updates that cons in a way similar to PUSH?
2017-07-13T11:05:05Z phoe: Like - I can write it myself, it's simple, but is there anything like that out in the wild already?
2017-07-13T11:07:08Z _death: it depends on the place you give to push
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2017-07-13T11:29:06Z phoe: Is (defgeneric foo (bar bar bar)) valid?
2017-07-13T11:30:33Z Bike: uh, probably not
2017-07-13T11:30:36Z TMA: phoe: you mean something like (lambda (cons value) (push (cdr cons) (car cons)) (setf (car cons) value)) ?
2017-07-13T11:30:42Z phoe: TMA: yes.
2017-07-13T11:30:47Z phoe: Bike: neither SBCL nor CCL complain about it.
2017-07-13T11:31:12Z Bike: i still say it's weird
2017-07-13T11:31:12Z TMA: clhs defgeneric
2017-07-13T11:31:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defgen.htm
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2017-07-13T11:31:41Z Bike: the parameter names in the defgeneric are irrelevant except for debugging, so i can imagine it working and an implementation not bothering ot check
2017-07-13T11:31:44Z Bike: but don't
2017-07-13T11:32:08Z phoe: ECL chokes when I try to DEFMETHOD on that generic function
2017-07-13T11:32:14Z phoe: but SBCL allows this
2017-07-13T11:32:19Z phoe: and the method works
2017-07-13T11:35:11Z TMA: it looks like it might be a problem -- it shall be an generic-function-lambda-list -- which is a lambda-list -- which does not allow for repeated var names
2017-07-13T11:35:33Z phoe: sounds like it's time to file some bugs
2017-07-13T11:36:09Z TMA: phoe: please go ahead :)
2017-07-13T11:38:41Z phoe: jackdaniel: ECL does not complain about such a defgeneric either, ^
2017-07-13T11:39:18Z Bike: why would you want to do this. don't
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2017-07-13T11:40:11Z phoe: I just found a bug in my few months' old code - it produced code like (defgeneric foo (t t t)) by mistake where it should have produced (defgeneric foo (bar baz quux)).
2017-07-13T11:40:16Z phoe: and SBCL did not choke on this.
2017-07-13T11:41:44Z phoe: so the moment someone ran this code on CCL for example, it would blow up.
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2017-07-13T11:48:02Z Bike: well, t is additionally a constant
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2017-07-13T11:51:14Z phoe: that too
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2017-07-13T12:05:31Z jackdaniel: generic? which generic
2017-07-13T12:06:11Z phoe: jackdaniel: (defgeneric foo (bar bar bar))
2017-07-13T12:06:31Z phoe: (defgeneric baz (t t t))
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2017-07-13T12:07:52Z jackdaniel: please file a bug, though I don't think it's a high-priority issue (if you put t as parameter name you ask for a fail anyway)
2017-07-13T12:17:11Z schweers: jackdaniel: just out of curiosity: what exactly is the bug here?  that such a defgeneric does not signal an error?
2017-07-13T12:18:10Z phoe: schweers: yes, it should signal an error.
2017-07-13T12:18:25Z phoe: a) because T is not a valid variable name as it's a constant, b) because there are duplicate parameter names
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2017-07-13T12:18:55Z schweers: k, that’s what I thought, just wanted to be sure :)
2017-07-13T12:19:20Z phoe: jackdaniel: it's a petty issue, but as I said, it's possible to turn these into real-life compilation bugs
2017-07-13T12:19:57Z schweers: understandable, I’d like to know too if I ever made such a mistake
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2017-07-13T12:20:31Z schweers: and not like the implementation to silently do the thing I probably meant.  Although I think I’d prefer a warning over an error.
2017-07-13T12:20:42Z schweers: but hey, I don’t want to be nit-picking
2017-07-13T12:21:01Z phoe: the specification says this is an error though.
2017-07-13T12:21:15Z schweers: oh, ok
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2017-07-13T13:40:08Z |3b|: is it actually forbidden to define a function with T as a parameter? T is a valid variable name (it has to be since it names a constant variable), you just aren't allowed to bind it (since it is a constant and in CL package), but binding doesn't happen until you call the function
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2017-07-13T13:40:41Z |3b| isn't arguing that anything that complains should stop complaining (even at full warning level), just curious if i missed something in the spec
2017-07-13T13:40:44Z schweers: I guess the reason it is illegal is that it is forbidden to redefine names defined in the standard
2017-07-13T13:41:06Z |3b|: it is forbidden to /bind/ them (and a bunch of other things unrelated to function parameters)
2017-07-13T13:41:10Z schweers: not sure
2017-07-13T13:41:19Z |3b|: but defining a function doesn't bind it
2017-07-13T13:41:21Z beach: schweers: That's not quite true.
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2017-07-13T13:41:35Z beach: schweers: standard names can be used as lexical variables.
2017-07-13T13:41:45Z beach: ... including function parameters.
2017-07-13T13:41:46Z |3b|: clhs 11.1.2.1
2017-07-13T13:41:46Z specbot: The COMMON-LISP Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm
2017-07-13T13:41:53Z schweers: beach: ah, so one is only forbidden from /globally/ defining them?
2017-07-13T13:42:13Z |3b| reads it as no local bindings either
2017-07-13T13:42:19Z Bike: locally as well
2017-07-13T13:42:24Z |3b|: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2017-07-13T13:42:24Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2017-07-13T13:42:26Z Bike: "binding it as a function", etc
2017-07-13T13:42:29Z |3b|: ^ that one i mean
2017-07-13T13:42:31Z beach: schweers: The rules are a bit complicated.  You need to look at the page.
2017-07-13T13:43:18Z Bike: defgeneric doesn't actually establish bindings, and i think it would be reasonable, if very slightly inconvenient, for an implementation to accept (t t t) as a gf lambda list
2017-07-13T13:43:20Z |3b|: ah, you can locally bind the ones that aren't variables
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2017-07-13T13:43:53Z |3b| forgot the 'exceptions' page, that exception doesn't apply to T though
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2017-07-13T15:10:03Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-07-13T15:41:36Z kang0: Flipkart is open source fully?
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2017-07-13T15:44:29Z beach: Do you have reasons to believe it is written in Common Lisp?
2017-07-13T15:45:33Z kang0: May be some part
2017-07-13T15:46:03Z kang0: beach can you explain me about org mode
2017-07-13T15:46:21Z Bike: well, flipkart has a github
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2017-07-13T15:46:35Z beach: kang0: No, I can't.  And even if could, it would be off topic.
2017-07-13T15:46:37Z kang0: Does it mean it's open source? Bike
2017-07-13T15:46:52Z Bike: at least a dozen languages used, none of which seem to be lisp
2017-07-13T15:47:31Z kang0: Bike can you?
2017-07-13T15:47:34Z Bike: https://github.com/Flipkart/null definitely some oddities
2017-07-13T15:47:36Z Bike: can i what
2017-07-13T15:47:43Z kang0: Org mode
2017-07-13T15:47:52Z kang0: I wish I can replace my excel
2017-07-13T15:47:55Z Bike: why would it be more on topic if i explained it?
2017-07-13T15:48:03Z Bike: there's an #emacs i think, ask them
2017-07-13T15:48:09Z kang0: We can be off channel
2017-07-13T15:48:15Z kang0: Oh thanks for that
2017-07-13T15:48:37Z kang0: Which on topic stuffs you can explain me
2017-07-13T15:48:56Z kang0: What's some oddoties means?
2017-07-13T15:49:09Z kang0: Is that open source?
2017-07-13T15:49:19Z Bike: "some oddities" as in "i think this is weird"
2017-07-13T15:49:29Z kang0: Why
2017-07-13T15:49:39Z Bike: because it's nearly empty?
2017-07-13T15:49:45Z kang0: hmm
2017-07-13T15:49:51Z Bike: anyway, it looks like flipkart has dozens and dozens of forks of things which are mostly open source
2017-07-13T15:49:53Z Bike: but not in lisp
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2017-07-13T15:50:22Z kang0: https://github.com/Flipkart
2017-07-13T15:50:27Z kang0: I guess it's filled
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2017-07-13T17:12:00Z nosefouratyou_: does anyone know of a small project I could write tests for? I want to practice using testing in cl.
2017-07-13T17:12:48Z malice: nosefouratyou_: any tests framework?
2017-07-13T17:13:12Z nosefouratyou_: I'd be happy to use whichever one someone else prefers
2017-07-13T17:13:25Z nosefouratyou_: I just want to learn about testing in cl
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2017-07-13T17:14:45Z oleo: there are many
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2017-07-13T17:15:56Z oleo: http://www.cliki.net/test%20framework
2017-07-13T17:16:31Z shka: nosefouratyou_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures
2017-07-13T17:16:50Z shka: there are tests, but not really unit tests
2017-07-13T17:16:55Z malice: Yes, cl-data-structures is one thing that you could test
2017-07-13T17:16:59Z malice: shka: how about cl-lore?
2017-07-13T17:17:24Z shka: it needs tests, but right now i'm refactoring it
2017-07-13T17:17:26Z malice: nosefouratyou_: and if you want to start *really* small, you can add tests to cl-sandbox: https://github.com/MatthewRock/cl-sandbox/
2017-07-13T17:17:35Z malice: at the end of the test file there's a todo note
2017-07-13T17:17:40Z oleo: stefil, rt and lisp-unit are the known ones to me actually (i mean not in depth)
2017-07-13T17:17:43Z shka: besides, there are no docstrings
2017-07-13T17:17:53Z nosefouratyou_: malice: I am definitely looking for something small to start with, thank you for that suggestion
2017-07-13T17:18:11Z shka: in cl-data-structure expected behavior is documented
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2017-07-13T17:18:20Z shka: so that's nice
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2017-07-13T17:18:37Z oleo: and fiveam
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2017-07-13T17:19:01Z shka: i like prove
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2017-07-13T17:23:30Z nosefouratyou_: prove looks awesome! I really like the fact that it has colorized output, sort of like npm stuff
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2017-07-13T17:26:30Z nosefouratyou_: is there a way in helm to make backspace delete the word instead of individual characters?
2017-07-13T17:26:38Z nosefouratyou_: sorry, wrong channel
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2017-07-13T18:08:23Z kang0: What's fpga
2017-07-13T18:08:52Z shka: kang0: programmable gate array
2017-07-13T18:08:59Z shka: you can put soft chip on it
2017-07-13T18:09:02Z kang0: Is it hardware?
2017-07-13T18:09:05Z shka: yes
2017-07-13T18:09:15Z shka: electronic hardware to be exact
2017-07-13T18:09:15Z kang0: This article says
2017-07-13T18:09:21Z kang0: It's intermediate
2017-07-13T18:09:23Z kang0: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-hardware-designs.en.html
2017-07-13T18:09:26Z kang0: How
2017-07-13T18:09:37Z kang0: Can you simplify More
2017-07-13T18:09:54Z shka: well, i can explain their logic
2017-07-13T18:10:01Z kang0: Sure
2017-07-13T18:10:06Z kang0: Go ahead
2017-07-13T18:10:09Z kang0: Have you used it
2017-07-13T18:10:10Z shka: so, as i said FPGA is programmable gate array
2017-07-13T18:11:39Z edgar-rft: ...like this: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-programmable_gate_array>
2017-07-13T18:14:36Z Bike: kang0: this isn't a general channel. you can get better help for a lot of questions elsewhere.
2017-07-13T18:15:00Z malice: kang0: is this related to Lisp?
2017-07-13T18:15:14Z kang0: Oh you are back
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2017-07-13T18:15:20Z kang0: Salute malice
2017-07-13T18:15:25Z kang0: Welcome back
2017-07-13T18:15:36Z kang0: Good news
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2017-07-13T18:15:52Z edgar-rft: AFAIK there had been several attempts to implement Lisp Machines in FPGAs
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2017-07-13T18:16:33Z malice: hi kang0
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2017-07-13T18:16:43Z kang0: Where's your memory?and promises? malice
2017-07-13T18:16:54Z kang0: (kang0) Welcome back
2017-07-13T18:16:55Z malice: yeah, I could use more RAM
2017-07-13T18:17:17Z kang0: Great
2017-07-13T18:17:23Z kang0: Use ddr4 instead of 3
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2017-07-13T18:35:27Z random-nick: is there a common lisp for the JVM?
2017-07-13T18:35:55Z vtomole: abcl
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2017-07-13T18:37:13Z shka: btw
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2017-07-13T18:37:52Z shka: does anybody knows why the heck armed bear common lisp was called armed bear common lisp?
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2017-07-13T18:40:54Z malice: maybe jackdaniel knows?
2017-07-13T18:41:40Z Bike: it's pretty hard to disarm a bear
2017-07-13T18:41:52Z shka: on the other hand
2017-07-13T18:42:19Z shka: bears don't need to be armed
2017-07-13T18:42:21Z Bike: well, it has a "bear arms" joke
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2017-07-13T18:42:48Z shka: uh ok
2017-07-13T18:43:06Z shka: i will just accept ABCL as awesome, albeit crazy, name
2017-07-13T18:43:39Z jackdaniel: why would I? ask easye
2017-07-13T18:43:58Z shka: jackdaniel: because you seem to know everything
2017-07-13T18:43:59Z jackdaniel: at first it was Armed Bear Lisp, as a small Lisp for J editor I think
2017-07-13T18:44:13Z malice: jackdaniel: I remember that you had some nice image about various implementations and thought that you had some knowledge about them
2017-07-13T18:44:13Z jackdaniel: old website shows a quote, which indicates it was a pun: " The right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed! "
2017-07-13T18:44:17Z malice: sorry if I was wrong.
2017-07-13T18:44:47Z jackdaniel: yes, I had a diagram, but I don't know why armed bear, I only suspect that it was the abovementioned pun
2017-07-13T18:45:02Z jackdaniel: shka: right, that explains it. and yes, I do ;-)
2017-07-13T18:45:10Z shka: yeah, and we should drop armed bears on parachutes
2017-07-13T18:45:31Z shka: the most fearsome force ever
2017-07-13T18:45:55Z jackdaniel: here it is: http://armedbear-j.sourceforge.net/
2017-07-13T18:46:11Z shka: the only person that knows more is p_l
2017-07-13T18:46:38Z shka: p_l is so omniscient that if there would be two omniscients, he would be both
2017-07-13T18:46:57Z p_l: ... ummm nope
2017-07-13T18:47:15Z p_l: I've met people who know so vastly more than me, especially in lisp community
2017-07-13T18:47:51Z shka: ok
2017-07-13T18:48:16Z shka: well, i never met anyone that is more kin on computer history
2017-07-13T18:48:29Z shka: and that's awesome
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2017-07-13T18:50:31Z jackdaniel: to jest stosunkowo nowa rzecz
2017-07-13T18:50:54Z shka: jackdaniel: oops
2017-07-13T18:50:59Z shka: check channel :-)
2017-07-13T18:51:12Z jackdaniel: right
2017-07-13T18:51:16Z jackdaniel: thx
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2017-07-13T18:54:43Z edgar-rft: maybe armed bear has a friend named legged bear
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2017-07-13T19:04:06Z phoe: edgar-rft: that was a really bad pun
2017-07-13T19:04:23Z phoe: but I bet legged bear runs on the CLR
2017-07-13T19:05:37Z vtomole: edgar-rft: lmao
2017-07-13T19:05:50Z p_l: phoe: some commercial lisping has been done on ABCL running through IKVM on .NET
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2017-07-13T19:06:30Z jackdaniel: afaik interepreter run on CLR in one of the forks
2017-07-13T19:06:46Z jackdaniel: maybe that's what p_l is saying
2017-07-13T19:07:19Z p_l: jackdaniel: IKVM allowed one to run complete ABCL
2017-07-13T19:07:33Z phoe: p_l: I know that ABCL ran on IKVM, but I had no idea that it was used for commercial purposes
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2017-07-13T19:08:42Z p_l: I have a... view into certain project at one multinational. With the quality of source, rewriting in Lisp would probably fly unnoticed...
2017-07-13T19:10:08Z p_l: tl;dr version is that quite often companies don't care what language is used so long as it's on supported platform
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2017-07-13T19:11:20Z phoe: so ABCL is a pretty good choice with all the JBosses around
2017-07-13T19:11:49Z p_l: yes
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2017-07-13T19:12:59Z p_l: and some of the "important LoB apps" is a) dead simple coding b) nobody looks wt it anyway except poor sods in support. So be your own support
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2017-07-13T19:16:11Z phoe: LoB?
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2017-07-13T19:16:22Z phoe: oh, I see
2017-07-13T19:16:27Z p_l: line of business
2017-07-13T19:18:01Z p_l: an app that every month provides reports considered crucial in a certain multinational is some of the worst java code that had been decompiled with original source lost
2017-07-13T19:18:59Z p_l: this is combined with shell script that triggers an oft-failing file transfer tool, which is then processed by MSSQL stored procedures and SSIS packages
2017-07-13T19:19:31Z p_l: it's no competition to lisp except for size of the bidding company for the contract
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2017-07-13T19:23:19Z emaczen: how do I "refresh" so that asdf can find new systems?
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2017-07-13T19:25:24Z phoe: emaczen: ASDF or QL?
2017-07-13T19:25:41Z phoe: I use QL:REGISTER-LOCAL-PROJECTS - that's why I ask. It seems to work.
2017-07-13T19:26:23Z emaczen: asdf
2017-07-13T19:26:49Z Bike: initialize-source-registry, i th ink
2017-07-13T19:27:05Z jackdaniel: emaczen: maybe (asdf::clear-configuration) ;?
2017-07-13T19:27:07Z emaczen: Thanks Bike
2017-07-13T19:28:07Z Bike: or maybe clear-source-configuration
2017-07-13T19:28:12Z Bike: er, -registry
2017-07-13T19:28:23Z Bike: the manual says it "clears any cache for the search algorithm"
2017-07-13T19:28:55Z emaczen: What you said first, worked immediately
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2017-07-13T20:44:11Z aeth: Programs that mostly just interact with a database can be written poorly because the real work is done in the database.
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2017-07-13T21:06:14Z p_l: aeth: yet the program part had been a source of user frustrations for ages
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2017-07-13T21:20:34Z edgar-rft: phoe: That was not a pun. It's *always* good to have friends.
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2017-07-13T21:26:03Z phoe: edgar-rft: this isn't C++, friends aren't mandatory to write idiomatic code
2017-07-13T21:27:06Z edgar-rft will implement CL++ to get some friends
2017-07-13T21:28:08Z phoe: ...that's going to be a proof that you can't get some friends without getting enemies along the way
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2017-07-13T22:10:08Z aeth: edgar-rft: I think you mean incf-cl
2017-07-13T22:10:14Z aeth: a little less catchy than C++
2017-07-13T22:10:39Z aeth: more googlable though
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2017-07-13T22:25:46Z shrdlu68: 1+cl sounds better
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2017-07-13T23:46:13Z thorondor[m]: hello. do you know if there's a portable way of handling extra initargs in CLOS?
2017-07-13T23:46:34Z thorondor[m]: LispWorks has :extra-initargs class option, but doesn't seem to be supported in other  Lisps
2017-07-13T23:46:37Z thorondor[m]: compilers
2017-07-13T23:50:21Z p_l: thorondor[m]: have you checked if closer-mop provides such a thing?
2017-07-13T23:50:40Z thorondor[m]: mm..no. but good idea
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2017-07-13T23:53:51Z thorondor[m]: I don't see it. And by inspecting SBCL code, it even seems to be fixed at MOP level.
2017-07-13T23:54:05Z thorondor[m]: check-initargs-1
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2017-07-13T23:56:14Z thorondor[m]: although I see a class-default-initargs
2017-07-13T23:56:23Z thorondor[m]: that could help perhaps
2017-07-13T23:56:27Z p_l: thorondor[m]: new metaclass needed?
2017-07-13T23:56:38Z thorondor[m]: it seems so
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2017-07-13T23:57:05Z thorondor[m]: and redefine class-default-initargs perhaps
2017-07-13T23:57:07Z thorondor[m]: not sure
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2017-07-13T23:58:15Z thorondor[m]: but looks possible with a new metaclass, yes
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2017-07-14T00:01:40Z Bike: what is this supposed to do?
2017-07-14T00:02:15Z Bike: let make-instance accept more keyword arguments that aren't in the lambda lists or slot initargs?
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2017-07-14T00:08:39Z thorondor[m]: yes
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2017-07-14T00:09:12Z thorondor[m]: I know it is a rare use case, but I have it (it's the first time I feel I want it)
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2017-07-14T00:14:41Z thorondor[m]: mm. I'm not sure I can plug this is. it's not compute-default-initargs
2017-07-14T00:14:57Z Bike: can you not just add them to a method's lambda list?
2017-07-14T00:15:08Z Bike: what are they being used for? part of a &rest list?
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2017-07-14T00:15:55Z thorondor[m]: I want to use them on make-instance (initialize-instance) without having to define slots for them
2017-07-14T00:15:59Z thorondor[m]: makes sense?
2017-07-14T00:16:10Z thorondor[m]: I have a padding slot
2017-07-14T00:16:30Z Bike: you can just have initialize instance accept them
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2017-07-14T00:16:42Z thorondor[m]: that's what I want
2017-07-14T00:16:51Z thorondor[m]: but check-mi-args complains
2017-07-14T00:16:52Z thorondor[m]: SBCL
2017-07-14T00:16:56Z Bike: like, (defmethod initialize-instance ((object your-class) &key bla bla bla) ...)
2017-07-14T00:17:26Z Bike: well, probably not on the primary method
2017-07-14T00:17:43Z thorondor[m]: ah. wait...
2017-07-14T00:18:01Z thorondor[m]: if it is mentioned in key then it works? (that would be a bit "magical")
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2017-07-14T00:18:05Z Bike: it ought to
2017-07-14T00:18:09Z thorondor[m]: mentioned as key
2017-07-14T00:18:11Z Bike: clhs 7.1.2
2017-07-14T00:18:11Z specbot: Declaring the Validity of Initialization Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ab.htm
2017-07-14T00:18:13Z thorondor[m]: ohh
2017-07-14T00:18:17Z Bike: second bullet
2017-07-14T00:18:25Z thorondor[m]: ahh. silly me!!
2017-07-14T00:18:27Z thorondor[m]: thanks!
2017-07-14T00:18:41Z thorondor[m]: but I have to try yet
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2017-07-14T00:19:51Z Bike: (Defclass foo () ()) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance foo) &key testing) (print testing)) (make-instance 'foo :testing 7) => prints 7
2017-07-14T00:19:56Z thorondor[m]: but CL has always been quite incredible in handling my corner cases quite gracefully
2017-07-14T00:19:57Z Bike: for me
2017-07-14T00:20:04Z thorondor[m]: :)
2017-07-14T00:20:10Z Bike: never used that feature before but it was a pain to implement, so i'm glad it works and is useful to you
2017-07-14T00:20:24Z thorondor[m]: it is!
2017-07-14T00:21:17Z thorondor[m]: it works
2017-07-14T00:22:28Z Bike: cool
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2017-07-14T00:39:38Z emaczen: I think format can map 123 -> one hundred and twenty three. Is the reverse mapping built-in to commonlisp?
2017-07-14T00:42:10Z Bike: pretty sure it is not
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2017-07-14T00:52:33Z pjb: emaczen: it is not in CL, but it's in lisppaste.
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2017-07-14T03:28:16Z PuercoPop: Is there a good reason why SBCL doesn't provide the restart to finalize class when one calls class-slots on a class that hasn't been finalized?
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2017-07-14T03:34:17Z axion: Is there a simple way to split a string delimited by #\Space into a list of strings, without using a library?
2017-07-14T03:34:33Z Bike: PuercoPop: because it might not be possible to, i guess
2017-07-14T03:34:54Z Bike: axion: not if "simple" means a one liner. just use split-sequence
2017-07-14T03:34:59Z axion: Ok
2017-07-14T03:37:08Z axion: Actually looks like I am already using cl-ppcre, so split works.
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2017-07-14T03:50:09Z PuercoPop: Bike: it might not be possible to finalize a class?
2017-07-14T03:50:53Z Bike: if it has forward referenced superclasses
2017-07-14T03:51:03Z Bike: if it was always possible there'd be no point to allowunfinalized classes
2017-07-14T03:51:09Z PuercoPop: ahh, you are right
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2017-07-14T03:54:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-14T03:56:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's the best way to split a pathname into a list of directories + the file name?
2017-07-14T03:57:17Z JuanDaugherty: there's more than 1?
2017-07-14T03:57:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. #p"a/b/c/d/e.txt" => '(#p"a/" #"b/" #p"c/" #p"d/" #p"e.txt")
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2017-07-14T03:58:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: JuanDaugherty: I actually can't find anything "off the shelf", although I've managed to hack something together that sort of works
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2017-07-14T04:03:11Z JuanDaugherty: i was think about the end function, the path name elements and finally the file name
2017-07-14T04:03:18Z JuanDaugherty: *thinking
2017-07-14T04:04:07Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. the end thing which is a split of full path literal)
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2017-07-14T04:21:08Z White_Flame: ugh, my old slime won't build on new sbcl, (*ASSEM-INSTRUCTIONS* not found in SB-ASSEM), and I need old slime to talk to long-running programs without version mismatches
2017-07-14T04:21:34Z White_Flame: guess I need a separate old sbcl to run that, too.  And a separate emacs just to be configured for that
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2017-07-14T04:25:14Z White_Flame: I would pay money to have somebody change SLIME such that the emacs side of it downloaded the instance-specific elisp into a closure only for that connection, instead of having a singular full slime client in emacs itself
2017-07-14T04:25:37Z White_Flame: I have no idea on the feasibility of that, though
2017-07-14T04:25:42Z JuanDaugherty: enough to make it worth while, or like a craigslist gig?
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2017-07-14T04:26:07Z White_Flame: maybe the former
2017-07-14T04:26:22Z JuanDaugherty: where some dolt (not you of course) wants to build facebook for $300
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2017-07-14T04:27:30Z JuanDaugherty: so this is an elisp specific thing? I thought you said it was sbcl?
2017-07-14T04:27:44Z SAL9000: SLIME is a two-part system; half in CL, half in Elisp
2017-07-14T04:27:46Z JuanDaugherty: or does elisp mean emacs lisp
2017-07-14T04:27:52Z SAL9000: yes, it does
2017-07-14T04:27:54Z White_Flame: yeah, emacs lisp
2017-07-14T04:28:00Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2017-07-14T04:28:19Z White_Flame: if the swank end of things held a copy of the elisp specific to that swank, all would be swanky
2017-07-14T04:29:00Z White_Flame: with emacs itself just having a shim to launch that downloaded elisp
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2017-07-14T04:29:29Z JuanDaugherty: how quickly do you need it done?
2017-07-14T04:29:31Z SAL9000: but what if lisp #1 and lisp #2 require different versions of the shim?
2017-07-14T04:29:38Z White_Flame: heck, actually I guess I could still connect, but I can't build anything with swank at the moment
2017-07-14T04:29:51Z White_Flame: SAL9000: that decision is at swank load time.
2017-07-14T04:30:00Z White_Flame: which stays with the executable
2017-07-14T04:30:25Z White_Flame: I don't know if there are variations for the emacs side of things, but still, the generic code can come along
2017-07-14T04:30:52Z SAL9000: I mean, you're suggesting interposing a shim between SWANK and Emacs, right?
2017-07-14T04:31:02Z SAL9000: this shim will eventually grow to the point of requiring versioning
2017-07-14T04:31:15Z White_Flame: emacs would hold the shim
2017-07-14T04:31:18Z SAL9000: and you're back where you started unless all Lisps that you want to co-host are on the same shim-version
2017-07-14T04:31:38Z White_Flame: I've written many thin launchers, and they stay put, because all the brains are in the downloaded code
2017-07-14T04:32:00Z SAL9000: my point is that eventually you'd need a new API which can't be backwards compatible for one reason or another
2017-07-14T04:32:07Z White_Flame: there is no API
2017-07-14T04:32:17Z White_Flame: there's just "blindly download and execute code blob", fixed in stone
2017-07-14T04:32:27Z White_Flame: any features are inside the downloaded code
2017-07-14T04:32:42Z SAL9000: oh, so you're only loading SWANK once per Emacs run?
2017-07-14T04:32:59Z SAL9000: I thought you wanted to be able to use different SWANK versions concurrently in the one instance of Emacs
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2017-07-14T04:33:10Z White_Flame: the idea would be that when you did slime-connect, it would download a copy of emacs-side slime specific to that connection
2017-07-14T04:33:33Z SAL9000: if it blindly executes the code blob it won't be able to evict old-swank when loading new-swank
2017-07-14T04:33:36Z White_Flame: instead of requiring installed emacs-side slime client code to version match the swank-side version
2017-07-14T04:34:02Z White_Flame: that's why the code would have to be contained for that connection only
2017-07-14T04:34:15Z SAL9000: that would require a LOT of elisp hackery
2017-07-14T04:34:17Z SAL9000: elisp doesn't have namespaces
2017-07-14T04:34:28Z White_Flame: but it does have alists and whatnot that it registers stuff in
2017-07-14T04:34:36Z White_Flame: so yeah, there'd be a lot of manual dispatch
2017-07-14T04:34:36Z SAL9000: effectively you'd have to make an elisp VM in elisp
2017-07-14T04:35:11Z SAL9000: certainly possible, but bug-prone
2017-07-14T04:35:11Z White_Flame: I'm certain there are large issues with doing it in the way I envision
2017-07-14T04:35:26Z White_Flame: but it would solve the problem of having long-runnign servers with naturally older versions of swank
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2017-07-14T04:36:06Z SAL9000: yes. If you don't care about evicting version 1 of swank to replace it with version 2 of swank -- all in the same Emacs instance -- then blind blob execution seems OK to me.
2017-07-14T04:36:17Z SAL9000: i.o.w. restart Emacs before connecting to a different server version
2017-07-14T04:36:19Z White_Flame: (either that, or bloat the crap out of emacs-side slime, retaining all older versions :-P)
2017-07-14T04:36:45Z White_Flame: but iirc, slime doesn't really version but just rolls new changes as they come
2017-07-14T04:36:52Z SAL9000: well, I imagine that the "proper" way would be to formalise the SLIME/SWANK APIs more
2017-07-14T04:37:06Z SAL9000: then you only need a version of SWANK for each major API version
2017-07-14T04:37:17Z White_Flame: yeah, I'm sure some of the eclipse or whatever packages that connect to swank would appreciate that as well
2017-07-14T04:37:46Z White_Flame: but still, I think you need to s/swank/slime/ in a lot of your statements, if you're understanding me
2017-07-14T04:38:06Z SAL9000: ...yes, I do.
2017-07-14T04:38:11Z White_Flame: :)
2017-07-14T04:38:12Z SAL9000: haven't used CL in a few months.
2017-07-14T04:38:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: In theory you could upgrade swank in-place
2017-07-14T04:38:27Z White_Flame: hmm, true
2017-07-14T04:38:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then have some sort of function to kill and restart the server
2017-07-14T04:38:50Z White_Flame: I can issue .lisp files to be eval'd into the system, but that wouldn't persist a restart
2017-07-14T04:39:02Z SAL9000: yeah, but imagine you have, say, a CubeSat running on CL
2017-07-14T04:39:13Z SAL9000: you don't want to accidentally break your swank by upgrading in-place
2017-07-14T04:39:37Z White_Flame: in any case, this has been a nuisance multiple times, but still a nuisance, not a breaking issue
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2017-07-14T04:40:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I wonder if you renamed the swank package to SWANK-OLD (or the like) before loading new swank, if things would be alright
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2017-07-14T04:41:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: That way you could keep old swank up and running until new swank has been tested
2017-07-14T04:42:33Z White_Flame: I just need the slime & swank versions to match
2017-07-14T04:42:48Z White_Flame: I'm not using any advanced features besides making function calls
2017-07-14T04:43:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I was thinking about the situation where swank was part of some critical infrastructure
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2017-07-14T04:43:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is fairly unlikely...
2017-07-14T04:43:15Z White_Flame: (well, and I can't start SBCL locally at the moment, because emacs is pointing at old slime, but whatever)
2017-07-14T04:44:00Z White_Flame: it's certainly a backup debug & un-fubar feature
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2017-07-14T04:44:18Z White_Flame: but it hasn't fubar'd in like 7 years
2017-07-14T04:45:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, in theory, renaming the package shouldn't affect the things in the package, unless the package relies on interning symbols in "PACKAGE-NAME" or the like
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2017-07-14T04:46:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, it should be possible to run old and new versions of a package next to each other
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2017-07-14T04:46:52Z White_Flame: not while both trying to listen on the default port ;)
2017-07-14T04:47:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but you just have new-swank listen on 4006
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2017-07-14T05:03:46Z BW^-: Hi! A question about Franz Inc. AllegroCache: Is its store automatically garbage collected, or??
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2017-07-14T05:26:10Z loke: BW^-: I don't think many people here have experience with that one.
2017-07-14T05:27:09Z White_Flame: that's their normal object store, not their triple store, right?  I believe you manually remove
2017-07-14T05:27:32Z White_Flame: the docs shoud be available online, though
2017-07-14T05:28:43Z White_Flame: "Once the deleted object is garbage collected out of Lisp's memory any future persistent values that are read from the database that contain a reference to the deleted object will have that reference replaced by nil."
2017-07-14T05:29:03Z White_Flame: so certainly smells like no propagation of reference tracking, just deletion of individual objects
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2017-07-14T05:30:38Z White_Flame: ORMs in general suck, though.  Programmatic use of objects is almost never a good mesh with serialization needs
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2017-07-14T05:32:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Allegrocache isn't an ORM
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2017-07-14T05:33:41Z White_Flame: it has a lot of similarites
2017-07-14T05:33:46Z White_Flame: but yeah, technically not
2017-07-14T05:33:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: ORMs simulate object databases on top of a relational database
2017-07-14T05:34:04Z White_Flame: or at least, it could be used as an ORM
2017-07-14T05:34:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: AllegroCache is an object database
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2017-07-14T05:36:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the issues with ORMs are that the simulation is a very leaky abstraction
2017-07-14T05:37:44Z White_Flame: and that traversal is not a good fetch model
2017-07-14T05:38:34Z White_Flame: (ie, bring on the memristors already! :) )
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2017-07-14T07:47:11Z earl-ducaine: I'm revisiting my knowlege of eval-when.  My rule-of-thumb is: use it when you have a macro that's dependant on a function that's defined in the same file.  Is that a reasonable summary?  Any other considerations that should be raised to the level of rule-of-thumb?
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2017-07-14T07:48:04Z beach: If you have an initial value of a variable that is required at compilation time later in the same file.
2017-07-14T07:49:22Z beach: ... basically for the same reason as for the function definition.
2017-07-14T07:49:32Z earl-ducaine: Ah, yeah.
2017-07-14T07:49:41Z earl-ducaine: thanks!
2017-07-14T07:49:48Z beach: Sure.
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2017-07-14T07:51:45Z phoe: earl-ducaine: you have (defun foo () 2) (defmacro bar () (foo)) in the same file - this is going to fail, most likely
2017-07-14T07:52:01Z phoe: same stuff with (defvar *foo* 2) (defmacro bar () *foo*)
2017-07-14T07:52:02Z beach: phoe: That's what he said.
2017-07-14T07:52:23Z phoe: beach: yes, correct, I'm just making an example
2017-07-14T07:52:30Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-07-14T07:52:37Z phoe: (just to make sure that *my* knowledge of EVAL-WHEN is correct ;)
2017-07-14T07:53:14Z earl-ducaine: Oh, and a style question.  How bad of form is to always use the full set of situations (:load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute) even one one's not needed...
2017-07-14T07:53:27Z earl-ducaine: (because you're too dim to be 100% sure)
2017-07-14T07:53:35Z p_l: I have yet to see one without all of them, tbh
2017-07-14T07:53:47Z beach: Same here.
2017-07-14T07:54:58Z phoe: ^
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2017-07-14T07:55:56Z phoe: you should not need to use other combinations unless you're meddling with the Lisp compiler or seriously play with how Lisp compiles files in general.
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2017-07-14T08:17:51Z earl-ducaine: No meddling in the dark arts tonight.  Learned my lesson with the pail and broom.  Thanks for the help!
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2017-07-14T12:31:36Z Thetabit_: I'm having some trouble with Emacs + Slime + SBCL. I have a fairly bare bones setup because I have to do my development on a windows box. But SBCL keeps crashing and locking Emacs up. I don't experience the crashing in a linux environment so I am wondering if Emacs + SBCL + Slime are the best when working in Windows. What do you guys think?
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2017-07-14T12:37:19Z |3b|: Thetabit_: sbcl+emacs+slime works fine for me on windows
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2017-07-14T12:38:48Z |3b| uses emacs from msys2/mingw, slime from quicklisp, and sbcl from git
2017-07-14T12:39:51Z Thetabit_: Use I am just using the msi version of emacs
2017-07-14T12:40:03Z Thetabit_: I'll give the mingw a try
2017-07-14T12:40:18Z Thetabit_: thanks
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2017-07-14T13:29:32Z thetabit: I'm reading PCL and going thru the function section. I am trying to 'call' each function in a list which using a loop, instead I am looking to (apply #'funcall (list fn1 fn2 fn3)) but this does not seem to work. What am I missing
2017-07-14T13:29:35Z thetabit: ?
2017-07-14T13:29:48Z thetabit: without using a loop*
2017-07-14T13:30:29Z phoe: thetabit: mapcar?
2017-07-14T13:30:41Z phoe: mapc?
2017-07-14T13:30:47Z thetabit: hmm, let me try
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2017-07-14T13:30:50Z phoe: wait
2017-07-14T13:31:00Z phoe: (apply #'funcall (list fn1 fn2 fn3)) should work
2017-07-14T13:31:28Z thetabit: let me get a paste of the full source.
2017-07-14T13:31:36Z phoe: (defun fn1 () (print "hello")) (defun fn2 () (print "allo")) (defun fn3 () (print "hola")) (apply #'funcall (list #'fn1 #'fn2 #'fn3))
2017-07-14T13:32:10Z phoe: oh, wait
2017-07-14T13:32:16Z phoe: yes, I am silly
2017-07-14T13:32:26Z phoe: (mapc #'funcall (list #'fn1 #'fn2 #'fn3))
2017-07-14T13:32:38Z phoe: if you want the result values, use MAPCAR instead of MAPC
2017-07-14T13:32:59Z thetabit: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350831
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2017-07-14T13:33:33Z phoe: first of all, STX-PROCEDURE has a &REST lambda list
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2017-07-14T13:34:01Z phoe: and second, you want to use MAPC instead of APPLY in DEFUN STX-PROCEDURE
2017-07-14T13:34:15Z phoe: and then call (stx-procedure 'stx-procedure-1 ...)
2017-07-14T13:34:27Z thetabit: Oh, &Rest not correct? Is it not necessary?
2017-07-14T13:34:36Z phoe: No no - it can stay
2017-07-14T13:34:51Z phoe: except &rest captures all remaining arguments to a function
2017-07-14T13:35:02Z phoe: like, #'+ has a &rest lambda list
2017-07-14T13:35:09Z phoe: so (+ 1 2) and (+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) works.
2017-07-14T13:35:19Z phoe: but you don't call (+ (list 1 2))
2017-07-14T13:35:22Z thetabit: Okay
2017-07-14T13:35:34Z phoe: that's why I say the final line of your quote has a redundant call to LIST
2017-07-14T13:36:48Z thetabit: Alright, I will rework it.
2017-07-14T13:36:52Z thetabit: Thanks for the pointers
2017-07-14T13:36:54Z thetabit: :)
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2017-07-14T13:37:06Z phoe: have one more
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2017-07-14T13:37:46Z phoe: 0x0000c0ef3b248604
2017-07-14T13:38:16Z phoe: that's a 64-bit pointer, hope it's useful
2017-07-14T13:38:17Z phoe ducks
2017-07-14T13:42:08Z axion: How can I loop over a list of plists with LOOP, and destructure the values of each?
2017-07-14T13:42:42Z phoe: axion: destructure the values of each? what do you mean?
2017-07-14T13:42:59Z axion: like :for (v1 v2 v2) :in ...
2017-07-14T13:43:04Z axion: err v3 for the last
2017-07-14T13:43:08Z phoe: in each plist?
2017-07-14T13:43:13Z axion: yes
2017-07-14T13:43:19Z phoe: (loop for plist in plists do (loop ...)) first and foremost
2017-07-14T13:43:39Z axion: Ok, I was wondering if i neded to nest
2017-07-14T13:43:52Z phoe: and in the inner list, you have a plist, and you want to iterate over a set of plist key/value pairs, correct?
2017-07-14T13:44:05Z phoe: clhs get-properties
2017-07-14T13:44:05Z axion: I know how to do it if it's nested
2017-07-14T13:44:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_pr.htm
2017-07-14T13:44:08Z phoe: this sounds handy
2017-07-14T13:44:28Z phoe: and if you have two layers of iteration, I think you always need to nest with LOOP
2017-07-14T13:45:05Z axion: Ok
2017-07-14T13:47:17Z axion: Hmmm I'm pulling out keys
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2017-07-14T13:52:46Z thetabit: phoe, used the mapcar... wow cl is really cool! :D
2017-07-14T13:52:53Z phoe: thetabit: welcome to the CL land :)
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2017-07-14T13:55:28Z tetero: thetabit: It sure is :-)
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2017-07-14T16:50:13Z slark: Hello, i learnt how to create closures in the gigamonkeys tutorial, but i am not sure how and why to use them.
2017-07-14T16:50:36Z slark: do you have some ideas on where closures are good to be used?
2017-07-14T16:50:52Z beach: slark: Suppose you want, for a given X, find the first element in a list that is greater than X.
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2017-07-14T16:51:26Z beach: slark: You could do (defun find-greater (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x)) list))
2017-07-14T16:51:31Z beach: something like that.
2017-07-14T16:51:44Z beach: Now, (lambda (y) (> x y)) is a closure.
2017-07-14T16:52:06Z beach: er, (lambda (y) (> y x))
2017-07-14T16:52:12Z slark: beach: indeed i used to use this, but didnt think at all it use the power of closure
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2017-07-14T16:52:47Z slark: beach: ok i understand :)
2017-07-14T16:52:54Z beach: Good.
2017-07-14T16:53:13Z slark: beach: but i mean you ahve to use closure in this expression
2017-07-14T16:53:27Z slark: you have no choice i think cause it is designed this way ?
2017-07-14T16:53:37Z beach: I am not sure what you are asking.
2017-07-14T16:54:07Z slark: beach: yeah sorry.. i mean when i am designing code, in general, where should i use closure ?
2017-07-14T16:54:11Z beach: Dinner.  I'll leave you in the hands of other #lisp participants.
2017-07-14T16:54:39Z slark: beach: nice :) good lunch
2017-07-14T16:54:44Z Bike: you use closures when they help, like in this example
2017-07-14T16:54:51Z Bike: it's not something you need to think too hard about
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2017-07-14T16:59:27Z nosefouratyou_: wow I completely don't understand (defun find-greater (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x)) list))
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2017-07-14T16:59:59Z nosefouratyou_: so (find-greater (5 ('1 9 4 19)) -> 9
2017-07-14T17:00:51Z Bike: find-if finds the first element of list that satisfies the predicate (lambda (y) (> y x))
2017-07-14T17:01:15Z nosefouratyou_: Bike: right, I get what it does, just not how it does it
2017-07-14T17:01:24Z Bike: you don't get how find-if works?
2017-07-14T17:01:39Z nosefouratyou_: because initially x is a number, but the inner find-if call passes a function as x, right?
2017-07-14T17:01:50Z Bike: what? no.
2017-07-14T17:02:29Z Bike: i don't even know what you're saying, but x is just 5 for you.
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2017-07-14T17:03:20Z nosefouratyou_: Bike: my bad, I thought find-greater/find-if were the same function. I was misreading it.
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2017-07-14T17:12:48Z slark: ok :)
2017-07-14T17:13:06Z slark: thx
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2017-07-14T17:15:25Z slark: in the chapter 6 in gigamonkeys tutorial there is this footnote: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350852
2017-07-14T17:16:52Z slark: what does it mean? does it mean we can use dynamic bindings in multithreaded application without problem ?
2017-07-14T17:17:39Z slark: let say a global variable *stream-output*
2017-07-14T17:17:58Z kang0: Which books in computer science or coding field; one must have /recommended to have in hard copy or printed form instead of ebooks
2017-07-14T17:18:18Z kang0: Suggest me few books
2017-07-14T17:18:23Z kang0: I want to buy few
2017-07-14T17:19:00Z knusbaum: slark: Sure you can use dynamic bindings.
2017-07-14T17:20:31Z slark: knusbaum: so i will not have to mess up with "lock" and kind of stuff if my threads have access to this *stream-output* if i use dynamic bindings ?
2017-07-14T17:20:40Z slark: this is really great
2017-07-14T17:21:03Z knusbaum: That's not quite what I meant.
2017-07-14T17:21:12Z slark: ok
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2017-07-14T17:21:37Z knusbaum: If multiple threads are accessing the same object, you still have to synchronize that access.
2017-07-14T17:21:48Z knusbaum: But that has nothing to do with dynamic binding.
2017-07-14T17:21:48Z slark: ok
2017-07-14T17:22:54Z slark: knusbaum: ok i understand
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2017-07-14T17:23:50Z knusbaum: slark: This is what the footnote was talking about: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350854
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2017-07-14T17:23:56Z slark: knusbaum: dynamic binding is kind of global variable shadowing with the same name as the global variable
2017-07-14T17:24:12Z knusbaum: Right.
2017-07-14T17:24:27Z slark: knusbaum: thx for the snipet
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2017-07-14T17:28:08Z slark: knusbaum: ok so the second thread take the variable as global cause the dynamic binding is related to the 1st thread
2017-07-14T17:28:23Z slark: knusbaum: thx :) i fully understand the notes now
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2017-07-14T17:39:14Z knusbaum: slark: That's right.
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2017-07-14T17:48:27Z beach: slark: Dinner, not lunch.  But, what Bike said.  Closures don't play a great strategic role in Common Lisp.  They are used for tactical reasons in situations like I showed.
2017-07-14T17:48:58Z slark: beach: ok, was just asking cause in javascript closures is kind of BIG THING
2017-07-14T17:49:06Z slark: a lot of debate around it
2017-07-14T17:49:11Z beach: slark: Sorry to hear that.
2017-07-14T17:49:12Z Bike: haha, what?
2017-07-14T17:49:23Z beach: kang0: You need to start sticking to the topic of this channel.
2017-07-14T17:49:52Z kang0: Ok beach
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2017-07-14T17:53:20Z beach: slark: The book SICP (based on Scheme) uses closures strategically, because they allow encapsulation of state.  But Common Lisp has CLOS, with its classes and generic functions (which is more flexible and more powerful), so we don't use closures that way.
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2017-07-14T17:54:58Z beach: Anyway, time to go hang out with my (admittedly small) family.
2017-07-14T17:55:13Z knusbaum: o/
2017-07-14T17:55:17Z slark: beach: thx :) have fun
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2017-07-14T17:58:09Z kang0: Which programs or softwares needs to be installed in computer while reading or trying book sicp
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2017-07-14T18:03:37Z slark: kang0:  i use emacs + slime and my lisp is common lisp
2017-07-14T18:04:26Z slark: kang0: but in scip they use scheme, so if you are a bit familliar with lisp in general it should be OK to work with common lisp while reading scip
2017-07-14T18:04:46Z slark: kang0: else it is probably better to install scheme
2017-07-14T18:04:49Z knusbaum: I would stick with scheme.
2017-07-14T18:05:12Z slark: knusbaum: indeed :)
2017-07-14T18:05:57Z Bike: i think racket has a sicp mode.
2017-07-14T18:06:28Z slark: kang0: a text editor and scheme is enough i think
2017-07-14T18:06:59Z kang0: What's slime slark
2017-07-14T18:07:08Z kang0: I have emacs
2017-07-14T18:07:23Z kang0: Not sure whether I have common lisp or not
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2017-07-14T18:07:56Z kang0: What's racket Bike
2017-07-14T18:08:15Z kang0: Can you link me scheme for Linux? slark
2017-07-14T18:10:12Z slark: ok
2017-07-14T18:10:16Z slark: i understand
2017-07-14T18:10:21Z slark: kang0 is a bot right ?
2017-07-14T18:11:54Z knusbaum: kang0: http://racket-lang.org/
2017-07-14T18:12:07Z slark: kang0: all linux distro use great official reposority where you can download everything you want in 1 command line check your distro package documentation
2017-07-14T18:12:45Z slark: kang0: if for some reason your linux distro doesnt provide racket follow knusbaum  link
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2017-07-14T18:16:53Z kang0: Racket scheme lisp
2017-07-14T18:17:01Z kang0: Which one to focus?
2017-07-14T18:17:17Z kang0: How to decide?
2017-07-14T18:17:56Z Bike: darts
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2017-07-14T18:20:00Z slark: kango, for a solo beginner maybe you should go common lisp (clisp/sbcl) more materials on it, book, tutorial and communauty
2017-07-14T18:20:27Z kang0: Sbcl?
2017-07-14T18:20:51Z slark: kang0: this is a common lisp interpreter as is clisp
2017-07-14T18:21:46Z kang0: Python has pip
2017-07-14T18:21:56Z kang0: Perl has something equivalent
2017-07-14T18:22:10Z kang0: What's such equivalent in lisp and scheme
2017-07-14T18:22:18Z kang0: Is it called collection of modules?
2017-07-14T18:22:23Z Bike: quicklisp.
2017-07-14T18:22:46Z kang0: Cpan for perl I guess
2017-07-14T18:23:23Z knusbaum: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2017-07-14T19:13:25Z nosefouratyou_: does anyone here use sly?
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2017-07-14T19:55:11Z Xach: slime is on my "try soon" list
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2017-07-14T20:04:19Z phoe: Is there a CFFI type for long double?
2017-07-14T20:04:34Z phoe: Because https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/issues/77#issuecomment-315454280 is what I get.
2017-07-14T20:05:40Z knobo: clhs says that a vector may or may not be simple after delete. But cltl2 says the vector is of same kind.
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2017-07-14T20:06:42Z knobo: Does cltl2 say that if input vector has fill-pointer then result also have one?
2017-07-14T20:06:42Z Bike: cltl2 is obsolete
2017-07-14T20:07:42Z Bike: phoe: manual says it's only supported on SCL, which seems weird but w/e
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2017-07-14T20:09:44Z Xach: sly, rather
2017-07-14T20:12:33Z knobo: So should I bug-report projects that use vector-push-extend on the result of delete?
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2017-07-14T20:13:57Z knobo: Because I did. Because I thought it was creating problems for me, but it turns out it does not after all.
2017-07-14T20:14:00Z aeth: If it relies on non-standard behavior in SBCL that could break on other CLs that that project supports, it is a bug.
2017-07-14T20:14:09Z Bike: i think it's a bad idea to rely on the return value being adjustable, but if implementations do actually return an adjustable array then it's kind of low priority.
2017-07-14T20:14:29Z aeth: I limit the amount of CLs that I officially support in my documentation, to limit the amount of bugs that way.
2017-07-14T20:14:35Z knobo: So maybe I should just close the bug report.
2017-07-14T20:15:14Z aeth: If all supported CLs behave like SBCL, there is no bug in my projects. But if projects implicitly spport all CLs and don't, then perhaps the bug is their lack of documentation.
2017-07-14T20:16:18Z aeth: In practice, most large projects don't actually support all CLs already. e.g. if they rely on a library that relies on CFFI
2017-07-14T20:16:45Z aeth: It's just undocumented which ones they don't support.
2017-07-14T20:20:37Z knobo: Anyway, I think that if there is a lot of delete/vector-push-extend maybe a list is more appropriate.
2017-07-14T20:20:56Z knobo: But that is another issue.
2017-07-14T20:21:29Z aeth: I don't think there's enough information to see which one is better with just that description.
2017-07-14T20:21:55Z knobo: aeth: I know.
2017-07-14T20:22:23Z aeth: I personally think that lists are the data structure that always should have to be justified (except in macros, of course, where there's no choice), especially because traditional Lisp culture overly relies on them.
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2017-07-14T20:22:58Z aeth: Especially in CL where arrays are so great.
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2017-07-14T20:27:55Z Bike: knobo: i'm also not totally sure what the fill pointer would be after delete
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2017-07-14T20:30:49Z knobo: Arrays are great. But it would be grater if delete would also set the deleted positions to nil or 0 or something approperiate, so that data could be garbage collected
2017-07-14T20:32:11Z knobo: And it would be greater with certainty that adjustable-array-p would be the same after delete.
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2017-07-14T20:32:43Z knobo: Then I don't know any other downsides with arrays.
2017-07-14T20:32:59Z knobo: Maybe my first issue here is a bug in sbcl
2017-07-14T20:33:05Z Bike: deleted positions? that's not how delete works
2017-07-14T20:33:11Z Bike: (delete 4 (vector 1 2 3 4 5)) => #(1 2 3 5)
2017-07-14T20:33:39Z knobo: Bike: yes, what I mean, is if you delete 5, fill  pointer is just adjusted to -1
2017-07-14T20:33:48Z foom: which is really really really bad
2017-07-14T20:34:00Z foom: if you have objects in there, and care about memory leaks
2017-07-14T20:34:19Z foom: It's really an amazing foot-gun the CL spec put in place there. :)
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2017-07-14T20:46:04Z knobo: How to do houskeeping beyond fill-pointer?
2017-07-14T20:46:36Z Bike: aref ignores fill pointers
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2017-07-14T20:54:12Z knobo: So the more I think about arrays vs lists I think I'll go for lists as default then rather use array if I can justify that.
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2017-07-14T22:00:02Z shka: foom: you don't actually want to shrink array just after delete
2017-07-14T22:00:24Z foom: shka: yes....
2017-07-14T22:00:31Z foom: shka: (not sure how that's relevant?)
2017-07-14T22:00:49Z shka: uh
2017-07-14T22:00:50Z shka: sorry
2017-07-14T22:01:04Z shka: foom: i actually wanted to address knobo
2017-07-14T22:01:06Z shka: sorry
2017-07-14T22:01:23Z foom: ah, np. :)
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2017-07-14T22:31:14Z tetero: Quick (and likely stupid) question: What's the difference between (in-package :something) and (in-package something)?
2017-07-14T22:35:45Z |3b|: where the symbol is interned (which in practice probably means "not much" unless you modify packages at runtime, with for example IMPORT)
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2017-07-14T22:36:49Z tetero: |3b|: Oh
2017-07-14T22:37:19Z tetero: I was wondering because they seem to have the same result for me, in what I'm doing, (not doing what you're describing), but I figured that in Common Lisp it's there for a reason
2017-07-14T22:38:10Z |3b|: other options are (in-package #:something) which doesn't intern at all, and (in-package "SOMETHING") which also doesn't intern, but may get confused when people run with non-default readtable case (and/or 'modern mode' lisps)
2017-07-14T22:38:49Z |3b|: IN-PACKAGE is a macro, and the package name isn't evaluated, which is why you don't need to quote the non-keyword symbols
2017-07-14T22:39:55Z |3b|: the package name is a "string designator", which means it can be a string, character (representing a string containing that character), or a symbol (representing the string naming the symbol)
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2017-07-14T22:40:55Z |3b|: symbols in CL are converted to uppercase by default, so :something, something, and #:something are all symbols named "SOMETHING", so when used as a string designator all designate the same string "SOMETHING"
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2017-07-14T22:42:40Z |3b|: "designators" are mostly in CL just for convenience, since in most cases you could use a string directly or convert it explicitly.
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2017-07-14T22:43:05Z tetero: Ah, cool
2017-07-14T22:43:51Z |3b|: the various syntax for symbols (keywords, normal symbols and uninterned symbols) are there for reasons, but those reasons mostly unrelated to use of symbols as designators
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2017-07-14T22:45:20Z tetero: Aye. My spontaneous reaction when dealing with Common Lisp is that things are thought through and aren't arbitrary
2017-07-14T22:45:21Z |3b|: if you only use defpackage, and never IMPORT, USE-PACKAGE, etc to modify existing packages, you usually won't notice the problems caused by interning extra symbols
2017-07-14T22:45:46Z tetero: What are those problems?
2017-07-14T22:45:57Z |3b|: (aside from possibly seeing a few extra options when you try to complete symbol names in slime)
2017-07-14T22:48:45Z |3b|: if you IMPORT a symbol into a package, and that package already has a symbol by that name, you will get a conflict. Similarly when using USE-PACKAGE, you will get conflicts if any of the symbols in the used package already exist in the other package
2017-07-14T22:49:49Z tetero: Ah
2017-07-14T22:51:43Z |3b|: and a less serious problem (if at all), is that INTERNing the symbol prevents it from being GCd, so using :foo or foo instead of #:foo potentially wastes a few bytes
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2017-07-14T22:56:40Z tetero: That's good to know, though, thanks |3b|
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2017-07-15T00:17:20Z krwq: is there some good example how to use ironclad with aes in cbc mode? i tried simply doing encrypt-in-place and when i pass a plaintext which is shorter than one block it doesn't do anything which suggests that it does something else what i thought it does
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2017-07-15T00:21:39Z krwq: i took my current example from http://gihnius.net/2014/09/68-secure-your-cookies-of-hunchentoot-in-common-lisp/ but this is simply wrong
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2017-07-15T01:58:17Z jasom: krwq: I haven't inspected it for correctness, but https://github.com/Shinmera/crypto-shortcuts wraps ironclad with easier-to-use functions
2017-07-15T01:58:59Z krwq: Thank you jasom!
2017-07-15T02:01:27Z jasom: krwq: note that it defaults to ECB, so you'll almost certainly want to not use the default
2017-07-15T02:10:47Z krwq: how do you xor two numbers? (xor 1 3) => nil
2017-07-15T02:12:12Z krwq: specifically (usigned-byte 8)
2017-07-15T02:13:33Z krwq: ahh, it's logxor
2017-07-15T02:15:11Z krwq: i'm surprised xor doesn't choke both numbers and bitvectors
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2017-07-15T02:17:17Z Bike: that would be kind of weird coercion even for cl
2017-07-15T02:17:27Z Bike: especially since bit-xor works on bit arrays, not just bit vectors
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2017-07-15T02:21:59Z krwq: Bike - I'm confused with the difference between bit-array and bit-vector
2017-07-15T02:22:27Z Bike: bit array = bit vector and bit non vector arrays, such as a two dimensional array of bits
2017-07-15T02:23:20Z krwq: i see, isn't number a bit vector too?
2017-07-15T02:23:31Z Bike: no, numbers are not vectors
2017-07-15T02:23:53Z krwq: number has a binary representation so i do not understand why not
2017-07-15T02:24:34Z Bike: because a "vector" is a finite linear sequence of objects of type VECTOR that you can access elements of with AREF, and use sequence functions like FIND on
2017-07-15T02:24:55Z Bike: you can treat numbers (actually integers) _sort of like_ vectors, but they're not actually vectors, in lisp terms
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2017-07-15T02:25:13Z krwq: a literal number is also a finite number of bits
2017-07-15T02:25:18Z krwq: should we add it?
2017-07-15T02:25:26Z Bike: in CL integers actually have an infinite number of bits
2017-07-15T02:25:55Z Bike: (logbitp 398 -7) => T. 2-adic, baby
2017-07-15T02:26:25Z krwq: 2-adic?
2017-07-15T02:26:35Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-adic_number
2017-07-15T02:26:49Z Bike: (not really, since it doesn't even include rationals)
2017-07-15T02:27:23Z krwq: ok, i would forget about negative, they have conventions for bits, but non-negative should be interchangable with bit vectors imo
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2017-07-15T02:28:12Z Bike: non negative integers still have an infinite number of bits
2017-07-15T02:29:27Z krwq: i don't see much value with bitvector type - what do you use that for?
2017-07-15T02:29:38Z Bike: anyway, while it would be kind of nice to have sequence functions and stuff on integers, it opens up a few cans of worms. like, it's nice being able to distinguish vectors from integers in other contexts, and why stick with base two?
2017-07-15T02:29:59Z Bike: i've used bit vectors when i need to avoid consing
2017-07-15T02:30:07Z krwq: because boolean algebra
2017-07-15T02:30:23Z Bike: you can do (bit-xor b1 b2 b3) to do b3 = b1 ^ b2, e.g., whereas (logxor b1 b2) will cons up a result for bignums
2017-07-15T02:30:38Z Bike: but i mean, there's no reason you couldn't use integers as vectors of trits, no?
2017-07-15T02:31:27Z krwq: conceptually true but you can say same thing for strings that they don't have any reason to use particular character set by convention
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2017-07-15T02:32:19Z krwq: or why is bracket a '(' and not X
2017-07-15T02:32:24Z Bike: well, and they don't.
2017-07-15T02:32:43Z Bike: i mean, lisp has a base character set but it doesn't specify that you use unicode or anything.
2017-07-15T02:33:37Z Bike: i guess as trits a negative integer would have all 2s.... spooky
2017-07-15T02:34:09Z krwq: or it would have + sign, - sign and * sign
2017-07-15T02:34:19Z krwq: whatever * wouold mean
2017-07-15T02:34:56Z Bike: i think all 1s would be -3/2?
2017-07-15T02:35:10Z Bike: or -1/2. yeah...
2017-07-15T02:35:11Z krwq: it's all convention
2017-07-15T02:35:19Z Bike: yeah.
2017-07-15T02:35:25Z Bike: and the convention is numbers aren't vectors. ha ha
2017-07-15T02:35:49Z krwq: but numbers do have bit representation by convention
2017-07-15T02:36:14Z krwq: except lisp
2017-07-15T02:36:26Z Bike: it's not like you can [] address integers in C.
2017-07-15T02:37:08Z Bike: actually if there are languages where you can treat integers as vectors i'm unfamiliar with them. CL's logbitp and stuff seem a bit rare to my limited self
2017-07-15T02:37:13Z krwq: well, you can technically 4[x]
2017-07-15T02:37:32Z Bike: that's just the same as x[4].
2017-07-15T02:38:21Z krwq: ok, i need to learn more about lisp types
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2017-07-15T02:38:29Z krwq: what's the best source of info for that?
2017-07-15T02:38:43Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean. what kind of things would you like to know?
2017-07-15T02:39:08Z krwq: what kind of types there are, how do you make new types and what can you do with the
2017-07-15T02:40:37Z Bike: mm, well, if you look at the CLHS ToC you can see it's partly organized by types. chapters 7-19 and 21 all describe objects of various types and the interfaces for them (17 is more of an interface, but w/e)
2017-07-15T02:41:37Z krwq: is there some entry level reading? clhs is fairly tough to read before you know a little bit about what you're reading about
2017-07-15T02:41:52Z Bike: minion: pcl
2017-07-15T02:41:57Z Bike: no? oh wel.
2017-07-15T02:42:13Z Bike: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ dunno if you've been recommended it already.
2017-07-15T02:42:37Z krwq: i have skimmed through most of the chapters but do not recall much about types
2017-07-15T02:42:55Z Bike: of PCL, you mean?
2017-07-15T02:43:01Z krwq: yes
2017-07-15T02:43:47Z Bike: well one chapter is called "numbers, characters, and strings" so there's three right there
2017-07-15T02:43:58Z Bike: it's not comprehensive or anything, of course
2017-07-15T02:44:40Z krwq: ive read this one twice but that's not helping much, it covers only really basic types
2017-07-15T02:46:10Z Bike: and the next chapter "Collections" has vectors and hash tables
2017-07-15T02:46:24Z Bike: and that's... really most of it?
2017-07-15T02:46:34Z Bike: i mean, there are a few other distinct data types, but they're not as complicated
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2017-07-15T02:48:51Z krwq: Bike: but then i want to declare type and got no clue what to type because class name does not match the type
2017-07-15T02:49:27Z Bike: okay, i don't know what you mean.
2017-07-15T02:49:37Z Bike: but there are basically two ways to make your own data type: defclass and defstruct
2017-07-15T02:49:42Z Bike: (deftype does something else)
2017-07-15T02:50:27Z krwq: i was thinking about whatever you make when you create deftype
2017-07-15T02:50:41Z krwq: use*
2017-07-15T02:51:28Z Bike: deftype lets you define new names of types, basically. Like, there's a type (unsigned-byte 8) for eight bit integers. You could do (deftype ub8 () '(unsigned-byte 8)) and then use ub8 instead of (unsigned-byte 8) thereon.
2017-07-15T02:51:29Z krwq: defclass and defstruct i think i got grasp on already but the part where you sometimes need to define type (i.e. make-array) is super mysterious to me
2017-07-15T02:51:46Z Bike: So deftype doesn't actually let you, like, lay out data structures.
2017-07-15T02:51:49Z Bike: I'm not sure what you mean.
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2017-07-15T02:52:00Z krwq: im not sure what do you use that for
2017-07-15T02:52:08Z Bike: You're not sure what you use deftype for?
2017-07-15T02:52:14Z krwq: why do you use that as array element type instead of class name
2017-07-15T02:52:26Z Bike: i seriously don't understand.
2017-07-15T02:52:50Z Bike: What is "that"?
2017-07-15T02:52:50Z krwq: if you can't use them for laying ouot binary types then what do you use them for
2017-07-15T02:52:57Z Bike: What is "them"?
2017-07-15T02:53:11Z krwq: those type aliases or whatever this is called
2017-07-15T02:53:43Z Bike: deftype? it's just for convenience, basically. it's not a very important mechanism compared to defclass and defstruct.
2017-07-15T02:54:03Z krwq: defstruct and defclass has pretty straightforward use to me
2017-07-15T02:54:12Z krwq: this other thing is black magic
2017-07-15T02:54:19Z krwq: you somehow get some random name from a class
2017-07-15T02:54:31Z krwq: and then use it in some random places
2017-07-15T02:54:39Z krwq: mainly because someone said you use it this way
2017-07-15T02:55:01Z Bike: okay, okay, what? "some random name from a class"? "some random places"? do you have some concreate examples of what's confusing you, maybe?
2017-07-15T02:55:53Z krwq: in example: (class-of #\c) => #<built-in-class common-lisp:character> but i somehow am supposed to know that this is the same as 'character
2017-07-15T02:56:28Z krwq: or i dont even know if they are the same or something else
2017-07-15T02:56:30Z |3b|: all class names also name types
2017-07-15T02:56:33Z Bike: names of classes can be used as classes in most contexts.
2017-07-15T02:56:55Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#class_designator
2017-07-15T02:57:07Z |3b|: also, (class-name (class-of #\c)) => CHARACTER
2017-07-15T02:57:56Z krwq: what about: (class-name (class-of 5)) => fixnum - i almost always prefer to use '(unsigned-byte N)
2017-07-15T02:58:07Z |3b|: not all types are classes though, in particular you can define types that just call a function to decide if something is of that type
2017-07-15T02:58:08Z krwq: but just learned that the hard way
2017-07-15T02:58:25Z Bike: (unsigned-byte n) is a type, rather than a class
2017-07-15T02:58:58Z krwq: and that's the black magic im talking about
2017-07-15T02:59:04Z Bike: (so is fixnum, but your implementation offered to give you a fixnum class as well)
2017-07-15T02:59:44Z krwq: is there some picture showing what are relationships between them?
2017-07-15T02:59:55Z |3b|: class-of and type-of are specified that way, they return specific class/type
2017-07-15T03:00:08Z krwq: and perhaps some set of functions to get that data by yourself?
2017-07-15T03:00:10Z Bike: between... classes and types? fixnums and unsigned-byte?
2017-07-15T03:00:15Z krwq: yes
2017-07-15T03:00:35Z krwq: fixnum and unsigned-byte
2017-07-15T03:00:37Z Bike: that wasn't intended to be a yes/no question but okay. you can use subtypep to determine relations between types.
2017-07-15T03:00:39Z |3b|: so 0 and 1 are type BIT, etc. (unsigned-byte N) wouldn't work well, because there are an infinite number of types containing every number
2017-07-15T03:00:45Z Bike: (subtypep '(unsigned-byte 8) 'fixnum) => T T
2017-07-15T03:01:11Z Bike: that means that all objects that are of type (unsigned-byte 8) are also of type fixnum.
2017-07-15T03:01:13Z |3b| assumes you wouldn't want the most specific one, which would be (unsigned-byte 5 5) or something, or maybe (eql 5), neither is much use
2017-07-15T03:01:31Z krwq: ok but how do you get list of all of them to draw the graph
2017-07-15T03:01:37Z Bike: List of all of what?
2017-07-15T03:01:40Z krwq: all types
2017-07-15T03:01:41Z Bike: Types?
2017-07-15T03:01:45Z Bike: There are infinitely many types.
2017-07-15T03:02:03Z |3b|: ask google, and get something like http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ ?
2017-07-15T03:02:09Z Bike: there's no limit on N for (unsigned-byte N), for instance. (I mean, you'll run out of memory at some point)
2017-07-15T03:03:02Z krwq: but is there a way of getting a list in a form like you just wrote (i.e. some placeholder variables or something)
2017-07-15T03:03:06Z krwq: that picture is pretty nice
2017-07-15T03:03:20Z Bike: a list in a form...? i don't follow, sorry
2017-07-15T03:03:25Z |3b|: clhs 4.2.3
2017-07-15T03:03:36Z Bike: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/04_bc.htm
2017-07-15T03:03:39Z Bike: since i already have it open
2017-07-15T03:03:51Z |3b| was about to paste http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm
2017-07-15T03:04:01Z Bike: most of them are just class names, though
2017-07-15T03:04:50Z |3b|: 4-3 is the list of ones that can have parameters, 4-4 is ones that have to have parameters
2017-07-15T03:06:21Z |3b|: and if you click the links on the names of types, it lists supertypes/superclasses
2017-07-15T03:07:08Z krwq: ok, need to read this i guess, the language in clhs is hard and i almost always get into recursion once i click any link and start reading that
2017-07-15T03:07:11Z |3b|: (some of which might overlap, like BASE-CHAR is only a type, but it is a subtype of CHARACTER which is also a class)
2017-07-15T03:07:38Z krwq: i need to read or at least skim through this - too much info now :) thank you!
2017-07-15T03:08:07Z Bike: godspeed
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2017-07-15T03:13:25Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm#classtypecorrespondence 4-8 has a list of types that are also classes
2017-07-15T03:13:58Z Bike: but no list of types that are not classes. sad
2017-07-15T03:14:12Z Bike: not necessarily*
2017-07-15T03:15:02Z |3b|: well, you can cut and paste and use set-difference to get one :)
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2017-07-15T03:52:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-07-15T06:54:09Z elderK: Hey guys, I recently felt like tinkering with Lisp again and did some reading of the CLHS.
2017-07-15T06:54:18Z elderK: I have a question regarding defstruct.
2017-07-15T06:54:37Z elderK: The specs say that it's up to the implementation whether a slot accessor is setfable?
2017-07-15T06:54:51Z elderK: (If the slot option, read-only is set to f or nil.)
2017-07-15T06:55:22Z elderK: Anywho, the reason I ask this is because I've beem reading a ton of CL code lately and no one seems to manually define setf expanders for struct slots.
2017-07-15T06:55:35Z dmh: i dont think i've ever seen it?
2017-07-15T06:55:56Z dmh: that is a good question
2017-07-15T06:56:19Z elderK: So, I was curious as to whether it's pretty much a given these days that the implementation *will* generate setfable slot accessors.
2017-07-15T06:56:43Z elderK: dmh: If you're interested, I can link you to the CLHS page.
2017-07-15T06:56:59Z dmh: sure
2017-07-15T06:58:06Z elderK: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/m_defstr.htm
2017-07-15T06:58:30Z elderK: Search for :read-only X
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2017-07-15T07:01:53Z dmh: i see
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2017-07-15T07:02:39Z elderK: It seems to contradict earlier text on that page.
2017-07-15T07:02:59Z dmh: yea im supremely confused
2017-07-15T07:03:03Z elderK: "defstruct defines readers for the slots and arranges for setf to work properly on such reader functions."
2017-07-15T07:03:24Z elderK: dmh: Me too :|
2017-07-15T07:03:42Z elderK: I will check cltl2. Perhaps the CLHS is incorrect?
2017-07-15T07:03:45Z dmh: i might look at ccl later
2017-07-15T07:04:41Z elderK: dmh: I get the feeling this CLHS page was rushed or is kinda... wrong. If you follow the syntax spec for defstruct, you'd think they you can only specify a *single* option for slots.
2017-07-15T07:04:53Z elderK: But then the spec examples show that you can supply many such options.
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2017-07-15T07:05:27Z elderK: Well, wrong is perhaps too strong a word to use here. It's certainly unclear.
2017-07-15T07:05:29Z elderK: :)
2017-07-15T07:05:33Z dmh: yea, maybe they just had to cover UB after one way back when
2017-07-15T07:06:21Z elderK: dmh: I'm not even sure how you'd go about implementing a setf for defstruct. I mean, structures are different from objects, right? They're not just some "cut down" version of CLOS classes?
2017-07-15T07:06:30Z elderK: Like, would slot-value work with structures?
2017-07-15T07:06:39Z dmh: i dont know, im fairly new to CLOS
2017-07-15T07:06:48Z elderK: I'm no CL guru - I'm nothing but a novice. But, I can't see HOW you would manually implement a setf for defstruct accessors.
2017-07-15T07:06:51Z dmh: and currently distracting myself with gambit
2017-07-15T07:06:56Z elderK: Gambit's fun :)
2017-07-15T07:07:10Z dmh: im coming into it from racket and didnt expect such a cool repl
2017-07-15T07:07:19Z elderK: s/accessors/readers/
2017-07-15T07:07:36Z elderK: dmh: I'm constantly flipping between CL and Scheme :P Well, when I'm in the mood for Lispin'.
2017-07-15T07:07:44Z elderK: I love Scheme's consistency.
2017-07-15T07:07:51Z elderK: But I love the standardization of CL.
2017-07-15T07:07:51Z dmh: i end up doign the same, looking at the hyperspec and going 'fuck this'
2017-07-15T07:08:01Z elderK: And the fact that it has CLOS :)
2017-07-15T07:08:12Z dmh: installing something from planet and finishing a project in a day and then not touching either for a month :-)
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2017-07-15T07:08:20Z elderK: Hehe.
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2017-07-15T07:09:01Z elderK: dmh: I was thinking of writing a simple two-pass assembler for a "example" architecture. It's an excercise in the book "Assemblers and Loaders" by David Salomon.
2017-07-15T07:09:06Z elderK: I figure, I could do it in C/C++, as I do most htings.
2017-07-15T07:09:14Z elderK: But, I really want to get better with CL.
2017-07-15T07:09:16Z elderK: (or Scheme.)
2017-07-15T07:09:25Z dmh: instead of making something up, do it in RISC-V
2017-07-15T07:09:32Z elderK: Then I got annoyed with all the SRFIs you need to import - and the differences between implementations for doing so.
2017-07-15T07:09:34Z dmh: you'll be ahead of the curve man!
2017-07-15T07:09:37Z dmh: yea true
2017-07-15T07:09:57Z elderK: Also, whenever I work in Scheme, I get this weird... OCD :P
2017-07-15T07:10:05Z elderK: Like, I want EVERYTHING to be referentially transparent :P
2017-07-15T07:10:29Z elderK: Which, of course, complicates things a fair bit if you want to make your RT things reasonably efficient.
2017-07-15T07:10:37Z elderK: Like, not just create an entire new copy of some ADT, just, spine it if you can :P
2017-07-15T07:10:58Z dmh: haha
2017-07-15T07:12:22Z elderK: dmh: So, I've also been reading up about CFFI.
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2017-07-15T07:12:46Z elderK: (I figured I'm make a minimal binding for SDL2 and make a simple 2D 'game' where you just move yer dude around the screen. Nothing complex.)
2017-07-15T07:12:53Z elderK: (Just a way to learn how to use CFFI, play around a bit.)
2017-07-15T07:13:08Z elderK: I'm aware lispbuilder-sdl exists.
2017-07-15T07:13:14Z dmh: yea was going to say
2017-07-15T07:13:18Z dmh: i get what you mean tho
2017-07-15T07:13:19Z elderK: But I'd prefer to do a minimal binding myself so to learn CFFI :)
2017-07-15T07:13:28Z dmh: i wanted to CFFI vulkan and do something stupid but lost interest
2017-07-15T07:13:44Z elderK: CFFI seems pretty nice - I played with it a couple years back, the groveller and stuff.
2017-07-15T07:13:50Z elderK: But I never went anywhere with that little project.
2017-07-15T07:13:55Z dmh: i was causing something to greatly fuck up and couldnt figure itout. lost those sources to a like 10 year old SSD pooping out
2017-07-15T07:14:08Z dmh: 80 gb intel ssd :D
2017-07-15T07:14:12Z elderK: :D
2017-07-15T07:14:15Z dmh: but yea
2017-07-15T07:14:21Z dmh: ive not done much useful w/ CL
2017-07-15T07:14:24Z elderK: I have a 512GiB Corsair, m.2
2017-07-15T07:14:35Z elderK: CL and Scheme have been excellent 'tinker timesinks' for me.
2017-07-15T07:14:56Z elderK: I've lost track of how much time I spent creating my own implementation of records and objects and stuff in Scheme.
2017-07-15T07:15:30Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2017-07-15T07:15:43Z elderK: Years and years ago, I was scheming in a big way - reading tons of whitepapers and stuff. But, whenever I tried to do something *real*, like say, write a program to analyze ELF binaries, I just... found it very painful.
2017-07-15T07:16:10Z elderK: I can't talk about CL - as I have no experience with its binary IO stuff - but Scheme's lack of a standardized binary IO mechanism was painful.
2017-07-15T07:16:24Z dmh: yea i have a few new ones now, only one m2 and wowee
2017-07-15T07:16:31Z dmh: hm
2017-07-15T07:16:53Z dmh: what got me, it was tinker/toy/purely experiementation stuff for me too
2017-07-15T07:17:09Z dmh: but i do contracting stuff and inherited something
2017-07-15T07:17:25Z elderK: Wow, really? What'd you inherit?
2017-07-15T07:17:26Z dmh: that was actually a really large web app completely done in CL AND RACKET
2017-07-15T07:17:34Z dmh: i could not fucking believe my eyes
2017-07-15T07:17:35Z elderK: Both? That seems odd?
2017-07-15T07:17:46Z dmh: yea, it was like 20% CL, that appeared to be legacy efforts
2017-07-15T07:17:54Z dmh: but mostly racket
2017-07-15T07:18:02Z dmh: so.. someone out there gets it
2017-07-15T07:18:11Z elderK: I used to play with Racket back when it was called PLT Scheme. I never really liked it much - sure, it had Planet and stuff but... I don't know, it didn't feel like Scheme.
2017-07-15T07:18:28Z elderK: So I migrated to Chicken pretty fast. The fantastic community of #chicken kept me using it :)
2017-07-15T07:18:31Z dmh: i mean now it can do anything, just plop your #lang in
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2017-07-15T07:18:48Z dmh: i've never tried chicken. i didnt know what i was doing, compiling to c interest me now that i have a remote cloue tho
2017-07-15T07:18:57Z dmh: clue perhaps. negated myself there
2017-07-15T07:19:13Z elderK: Chicken's pretty nice.
2017-07-15T07:19:19Z elderK: But again, I've never done anything "real" with it.
2017-07-15T07:19:28Z elderK: I'd like to do the same as I intend to do with CL/CFFI with Chicken at a later date.
2017-07-15T07:19:47Z elderK: It's like, damn near ten years ago I was like "I want to learn Lisp and stuff!"
2017-07-15T07:19:55Z elderK: Well, almost ten years later, that hasn't been achieved.
2017-07-15T07:19:59Z elderK: Life got in the way.
2017-07-15T07:20:02Z elderK: :P So, I'm turning thirty this year.
2017-07-15T07:20:03Z dmh: yea i know that very well
2017-07-15T07:20:08Z dmh: i am 30
2017-07-15T07:20:12Z elderK: I want to be proficient in Lisp by the time I'm 35.
2017-07-15T07:20:14Z dmh: very similar curve
2017-07-15T07:20:14Z elderK: :P
2017-07-15T07:20:30Z dmh: you can read `beating the averages` only so many times
2017-07-15T07:20:38Z elderK: It's sad, really. Like, at my last job, I would tell interested friends about CL, Scheme, Standard ML, etc.
2017-07-15T07:20:48Z elderK: And I'd be actively antagonized about it by my boss.
2017-07-15T07:20:52Z elderK: That was a shit place, toxic
2017-07-15T07:21:08Z dmh: been there
2017-07-15T07:21:19Z dmh: i was seen as a guru after doing 'tail -f' on logs and shit
2017-07-15T07:21:33Z elderK: At University now, working on getting a Bachelor of Science in CS and Mathematics. I got reasonably far in the industry here in NZ, I guess, without a degree. But, not having a degree introduced all kinds of "human" factors that made life kinda uncomfortable.
2017-07-15T07:21:41Z elderK: dmh: Haha.
2017-07-15T07:21:59Z dmh: yea that stinks
2017-07-15T07:22:07Z elderK: It's kind of depressing, tbh. I used to believe you needed to be *great* at programming and stuff to get a job.
2017-07-15T07:22:14Z elderK: I learned that is not the truth.
2017-07-15T07:22:17Z dmh: complete opposite
2017-07-15T07:22:45Z elderK: The majority of programmers at the company - who possessed degrees - didn't even remember when they should use what data structures, everything was just a linked list.
2017-07-15T07:22:53Z elderK: Methods that were tensive thousanads of lines long.
2017-07-15T07:23:43Z elderK: Anyway. So here I am, damn near 30, back at school. To hopefully make landing a job somewhere that isn't toxic easier. Sometimes, you can't help but wonder "So, what did all that time I spent learning the shit everyone ignores, really do for me?"
2017-07-15T07:23:47Z elderK: *end rant*
2017-07-15T07:23:48Z elderK: Sorry :D
2017-07-15T07:23:55Z dmh: i completely understand haha
2017-07-15T07:24:07Z elderK: I'm a little bitter these days, I guess. Easy to get carried away
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2017-07-15T07:25:01Z elderK: dmh: What's the web app like? Is it scary? Is it beautiful? :D
2017-07-15T07:25:17Z dmh: well i didnt actualy have to work on it for reasons
2017-07-15T07:25:22Z dmh: but it was pretty nice looking code
2017-07-15T07:26:41Z dmh: i wish i got to work on it
2017-07-15T07:26:51Z dmh: im surrounded by very low tier programmers cranking out nightmares
2017-07-15T07:27:06Z dmh: i luckily got to break out a bit on my own work
2017-07-15T07:27:12Z elderK: Nice.
2017-07-15T07:27:22Z elderK: Does your manager or team lead give you space?
2017-07-15T07:27:25Z elderK: Mine was a total control freak.
2017-07-15T07:27:33Z elderK: There wasn't a thing you could do without him ordering you to change it.
2017-07-15T07:27:40Z elderK: It got to the point of raw threats.
2017-07-15T07:27:42Z elderK: :|
2017-07-15T07:27:47Z dmh: well, my experience is a bit odd
2017-07-15T07:28:00Z elderK: I.e. You complete some project, written nicely, maintainable, extensible. You're done well before the deadline.
2017-07-15T07:28:10Z elderK: Then, beause he doesn't understand it, he forces you to rewrite it "his" way.
2017-07-15T07:28:18Z elderK: That was more time and makes things worse.
2017-07-15T07:28:19Z dmh: at both places, its not that im exceptionally skilled, but everyone else is very low tier so i shoot to top and drove a  lot of change
2017-07-15T07:28:30Z elderK nods
2017-07-15T07:28:32Z dmh: so they thought wow he is great and gave me a really loose leash on projects cuz i would just produce like crazy
2017-07-15T07:28:59Z dmh: ive never had to deal with micromanagement as a professional developer thankfully haha
2017-07-15T07:29:03Z dmh: thatd get me too
2017-07-15T07:29:18Z elderK: My first job was actually better although it took hindsight for me to recognize that.
2017-07-15T07:29:32Z dmh: i had a boss at a previous job that rejected anything he didnt understand, and he was a very smart guy but didnt try to understand anything new, so that was sorta close, but he just gave up and trusted us
2017-07-15T07:29:40Z dmh: yea i made same mistake
2017-07-15T07:29:47Z elderK: There, they didn't care how you got the job done, just that you did. And if you produced working products in good time, well, that was awesome.
2017-07-15T07:29:54Z elderK: At my last job, well. It was all about the lead.
2017-07-15T07:29:58Z elderK: It was *his* castle.
2017-07-15T07:30:07Z elderK: And if you didn't do things EXACTLY his way, he would throw a tantrum.
2017-07-15T07:30:28Z elderK: I.e. If you DARED to break lines... BEWARE!
2017-07-15T07:30:34Z elderK: If you used operators that he didn't know about...
2017-07-15T07:30:42Z elderK: Or actually split things into .cpp and .h...
2017-07-15T07:30:48Z elderK: He wrote everything, everything in a giant .h file.
2017-07-15T07:30:52Z elderK: Implementation there, too.
2017-07-15T07:31:09Z elderK: "You shouldn't use enumerations! You should use #define!" etc.
2017-07-15T07:31:28Z elderK: dmh: Interesting. It's good that he just gave up.
2017-07-15T07:31:30Z elderK: :P
2017-07-15T07:31:38Z dmh: on most things, he still had his 'stuff'
2017-07-15T07:31:42Z dmh: it was a lazer focus .NET shop
2017-07-15T07:31:52Z dmh: we were doing shit no one before had done apparently
2017-07-15T07:31:57Z dmh: it sucked
2017-07-15T07:32:00Z elderK: It sounds it.
2017-07-15T07:32:29Z elderK: I was working for this country's second largest payment processor. Vending machines, parking machines, electronic payment terminals, ecommerce, etc.
2017-07-15T07:32:49Z elderK: Generally, when the lead couldn't grok something, he'd throw it to me. And if it was hard enough - for him - he'd give me a lot of space.
2017-07-15T07:32:59Z elderK: (I.e. When I had to implement support for Apple and Android Pay.)
2017-07-15T07:33:25Z elderK: (The NIST standards and stuff for the crypto... OpenSSL and stuff too, all scared him.).
2017-07-15T07:33:28Z elderK: So, he left me in peace for that.
2017-07-15T07:34:18Z dmh: haha
2017-07-15T07:34:25Z elderK: Unfortunately, he'd still shit his pants if he found out I broke long lines. He seemed to be one of those people that thought every line had to do ONE thing.
2017-07-15T07:34:31Z dmh: i just finished one of those damn NIST checklists for a server
2017-07-15T07:34:33Z elderK: So, his code would have >150 character lines.
2017-07-15T07:34:38Z elderK: That's not including indentation.
2017-07-15T07:34:47Z dmh: oh man my old boss was very comparable lol
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2017-07-15T07:35:09Z dmh: we had to use full namespace qualifications in C# which was insane
2017-07-15T07:35:19Z elderK: When he started threatening me - "If you keep breaking lines of long parameter lists, I will see to it that  you are fired!"
2017-07-15T07:35:31Z dmh: what an idiot
2017-07-15T07:35:35Z dmh: managing to manage lol
2017-07-15T07:35:36Z elderK: or "Put all your implementation in a .h file, ffs, or I will find out how to get your pay decreased?!"
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2017-07-15T07:35:38Z elderK: etc.
2017-07-15T07:35:47Z elderK: So, I resigned and thought "#@!#$ YOU!"
2017-07-15T07:36:09Z elderK: I'd tell you more stuff - but I feel as if I'm... blocking this channel for legitimate use :{P
2017-07-15T07:36:24Z elderK: dmh: You weren't allowed to use the shortcuts?
2017-07-15T07:36:41Z elderK: It's been a long time since I touched C# - but there's a way to import - and to shorten the namespaces, isn't there?
2017-07-15T07:36:42Z dmh: only certain ones
2017-07-15T07:36:56Z dmh: couldnt use new MS base class libraries until he 'understood them'
2017-07-15T07:37:01Z dmh: and boy did he not try to
2017-07-15T07:37:09Z elderK nods
2017-07-15T07:37:12Z dmh: anyway yea, not to go further off topic
2017-07-15T07:37:39Z elderK: :P PM me. I'd love to hear more of your story. Even if only so I know I'm not the only one to have such stories :C
2017-07-15T07:37:46Z elderK: :)
2017-07-15T07:38:08Z elderK: CFFI's type translation stuff seems pretty cool.
2017-07-15T07:38:31Z elderK: I wonder how sane it is to create some wrapper class for a pointer, instead of just passing around raw CFFI stuff.
2017-07-15T07:38:41Z elderK: I'll have to take a peek at some libs, I think.
2017-07-15T07:38:43Z dmh: i managed to leak strings malloc'd in a third party lib at lightspeed
2017-07-15T07:38:47Z elderK: Try and see the idioms.
2017-07-15T07:39:28Z elderK: Sounds like you should have implemented a specialization for free-translated-object
2017-07-15T07:39:43Z elderK: I haven't tried that myself - I'm just reading the manual :) But, that seems to be the purpose of that.
2017-07-15T07:41:32Z elderK: dmh: How much do you know about CL's IO capabilities?
2017-07-15T07:41:45Z elderK: And say, native threading? I know there's bordeaux threads?
2017-07-15T07:41:51Z dmh: aside from implementation specific sockets, none
2017-07-15T07:42:04Z dmh: ive used nothing but sockets for everything
2017-07-15T07:42:08Z elderK: I was wondering how... uh, nice, blocking OS calls play with CL, say, SBCL in this context.
2017-07-15T07:42:29Z dmh: simple blocking sockets at that :p
2017-07-15T07:42:29Z elderK: I was thinking of implementing my own async socket stuff using epoll/iocp/etc~
2017-07-15T07:43:00Z elderK: I WOULD read some existing libraries for this - but, it's... like... You don't want to jump into the deep end straight away, you know?
2017-07-15T07:43:24Z dmh: absolutely
2017-07-15T07:43:32Z dmh: async greatly muddies the waters too
2017-07-15T07:43:37Z elderK: Especially when they will be making use of idioms or patterns or even just context, that I'm not yet aware of.
2017-07-15T07:45:05Z elderK: Another thing to think about is how do you transmit buffers of stuff to send say, to native code efficiently? I remember long ago that there was a library called 'static-vectors' or something like that. So, you could create a vector or array in Lisp and pass that directly via CFFI - i.e. They were pinned.
2017-07-15T07:45:14Z elderK: And I know that CFFI has some extensions for this.
2017-07-15T07:46:06Z elderK: But... it just makes you wonder. Would you wind up copying to/from all the time? Would you have to manage native buffers yourself? How would you best integrate these native buffers, pointers of them perhaps in some class, into Lisps GC?
2017-07-15T07:46:09Z elderK shrugs
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2017-07-15T07:47:07Z elderK: dmh: That raises another question! How many people add or test support for changing a class at runtime? Making sure their instances can properly handle that, etc?
2017-07-15T07:47:19Z dmh: i dunno
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2017-07-15T07:47:26Z dmh: all the CL i wrote i didnt use CLOS at all
2017-07-15T07:47:37Z dmh: i was having a hard enough tiem with it haha
2017-07-15T07:47:44Z dmh: im by no means experienced either
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2017-07-15T07:51:34Z elderK: dmh: CLOS is pretty cool.
2017-07-15T07:51:52Z elderK: But, I'll admit, it's also quite jarring if you're used to the C++/C#/Java way of doing things.
2017-07-15T07:52:13Z elderK: I have questions about idioms and... stuff, for the experienced people, regarding CLOS.
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2017-07-15T07:52:41Z elderK: You get so used to the idea of a class *owning* the member functions, as it were.
2017-07-15T07:52:59Z elderK: So generics being... independent from a class, is a bit of a jump.
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2017-07-15T07:58:48Z dmh: huh
2017-07-15T07:58:53Z dmh: sounds sorta like traits in rust
2017-07-15T07:59:16Z elderK: There's a good book written by Sonya Keene about CLOS.
2017-07-15T07:59:32Z elderK: :) You can either buy an old copy or download it from libgen.io.
2017-07-15T07:59:37Z elderK: Introduction for CLOS, I believe its called.
2017-07-15T07:59:57Z elderK: A generic function is a bit like a container: It contains a bunch of methods.
2017-07-15T08:00:17Z elderK: It's the methods that actually implement the functionality. And it's the methods that are specialized to specific types.
2017-07-15T08:00:27Z elderK: It's got some really cool functionality too - method combination and stuff.
2017-07-15T08:00:33Z elderK: Well worth a poke when you have time :)
2017-07-15T08:01:09Z dmh: cool
2017-07-15T08:01:14Z dmh: im heading to bed, ill pm ya sometime
2017-07-15T08:01:46Z elderK: Take care, dmh. Sleep well.
2017-07-15T08:01:49Z elderK: :)
2017-07-15T08:01:51Z elderK: Thanks for listening.
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2017-07-15T08:02:37Z beach: https://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-COMMON-LISP-Programmers/dp/0201175894
2017-07-15T08:02:59Z elderK: beach: That's the one!
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2017-07-15T08:45:57Z phoe: Hey, #lisp: which Lisp guide at https://github.com/Kristories/awesome-guidelines should be the top one? Should we also add Norvig slides there?
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2017-07-15T08:50:25Z beach: phoe: Not this one: http://labs.ariel-networks.com/cl-style-guide.html
2017-07-15T08:51:28Z phoe: beach: This guide is why I asked, actually. It is nothing that I can see used contemporarily.
2017-07-15T08:51:48Z phoe: And, as this is a curated list, personally I don't think it should be there.
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2017-07-15T08:53:36Z beach: That one has several problems in it, including some highly personal taste being recommended, rather than agreed-upon conventions.
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2017-07-15T08:57:10Z elderK: beach: phoe's link? Or Keene's book?
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2017-07-15T08:57:29Z phoe: elderK: beach's link, actually.
2017-07-15T08:57:34Z phoe: the labs.ariel-networks.com one
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2017-07-15T08:59:45Z elderK: Ah, my bad. I missed that entirely.
2017-07-15T08:59:47Z elderK: Sorry :)
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2017-07-15T09:18:20Z elderK: Hey guys, does anyone happen to have the ASDF3 manual PDF laying about?
2017-07-15T09:18:23Z elderK: common-lisp.net is down.
2017-07-15T09:18:33Z elderK: I'm having trouble finding a recent manual for ASDF.
2017-07-15T09:18:35Z elderK: :(
2017-07-15T09:21:38Z phoe: elderK: ask Google for a cached version
2017-07-15T09:21:41Z phoe: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7UhRFKs78c4J:https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pl
2017-07-15T09:22:20Z edgar-rft: elderK: a copy of the common-lisp.net repository is here: <https://github.com/fare/asdf>
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2017-07-15T09:25:18Z elderK: Thanks guys.
2017-07-15T09:28:43Z elderK: Annoying. Google Cache doesn't let you actually download the PDF...
2017-07-15T09:28:59Z elderK: As for the GitHub, that'd require me to actually build the documentation.
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2017-07-15T09:30:51Z elderK: Build it I will, I guess :)
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2017-07-15T09:36:33Z phoe submits, https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6nf3g4/
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2017-07-15T10:21:26Z phoe: common-lisp.net is back!
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2017-07-15T10:51:09Z phoe: ...and supports HTTP/2.
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2017-07-15T11:07:15Z LAG_: what is the news ?
2017-07-15T11:07:38Z LAG_: the Latest news still show 2015-05-25
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2017-07-15T11:21:28Z edgar-rft: When "late news" are news being sooo late that nobody wants to know them anymore, what exactly do you expect to find under "latest news"?
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2017-07-15T12:42:21Z malice: I've inserted some break statements that I would like to ignore in my call now.
2017-07-15T12:42:39Z malice: I tried (flet ((cl::break () nil)) my-code) but it doesn't work.
2017-07-15T12:42:48Z malice: Of course I've tried that after lifting the package lock on CL
2017-07-15T12:43:16Z malice: Is this the proper approach and I've done some stupid mistake, or is the problem more complex or my approach wrong?
2017-07-15T12:43:34Z Bike: you could, like, delete the break calls?
2017-07-15T12:43:40Z Bike: or conditionalize them based on a debug variable.
2017-07-15T12:45:22Z malice: Yes, but I haven't thought of it at the time and wanted a quick hack
2017-07-15T12:45:30Z malice: and I may want to use them in the future
2017-07-15T12:45:43Z malice: So my approach won't work?
2017-07-15T12:45:45Z Bike: quick hacks aren't good for the future
2017-07-15T12:45:48Z Bike: no, it won't
2017-07-15T12:47:03Z Bike: (defmacro debug-break (&rest args) (if *debug* `(break ,@args) nil)), then there will be breaks only if *debug* was true at compile time
2017-07-15T12:47:22Z malice: I didn't want to put it in code, just to use in REPL to try out the stuff. I'm not used to leaving hacks in the code.
2017-07-15T12:48:03Z malice: May I know why it won't work though? I thought that the call to BREAK would call my function, as the global definition is shadowed by the local one?
2017-07-15T12:48:32Z Bike: well, violating package locks takes you into unknown territory
2017-07-15T12:48:35Z Bike: but what is my-code exactly?
2017-07-15T12:49:47Z malice: A call to the function of some system I'm debugging
2017-07-15T12:50:25Z malice: Bike: so to make things clear, were this some other function, non-locked, e.g. #'FOO, the code would work?
2017-07-15T12:50:29Z Bike: like (flet ((break () nil)) (malice:do-stuff))?
2017-07-15T12:50:33Z malice: yes
2017-07-15T12:50:42Z Bike: no, that wouldn't work regardless of the package lock.
2017-07-15T12:50:48Z Bike: flet does lexical bindings, not dynamic bindings.
2017-07-15T12:51:30Z malice: and declaring it special wouldn't change anything, would it?
2017-07-15T12:51:42Z Bike: it would be an error. you can't bind functions specially.
2017-07-15T12:52:24Z malice: I see. That's too bad.
2017-07-15T12:52:27Z malice: Thanks.
2017-07-15T12:52:34Z Bike: no problem
2017-07-15T12:52:54Z Bike: if you do want something like 'special functions', you can just do like (defun foo (&rest args) (apply *foo* args)) and then bind *foo*
2017-07-15T12:54:36Z malice: Yes.
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2017-07-15T13:19:16Z |3b|: instead of messing with the BREAK, you could add a handler to pick the continue restart automatically
2017-07-15T13:19:50Z Bike: might be a bit slow though
2017-07-15T13:20:27Z malice: That's nice, haven't thought of that.
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2017-07-15T13:27:44Z elderK: Guys, when you're writing a new program, like, creating your own ASDF system and all, do you link your project's directory into wherever ASDF's source registry is?
2017-07-15T13:27:46Z elderK: Or is there a nicer way?
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2017-07-15T13:28:45Z elderK: After skimming the ASDF3 manual, I've just placed a bunch of prereq systems in ~/.local/share/common-lisp/sources. SBCL's happy and can find them all.
2017-07-15T13:29:00Z elderK: It'd be nice do avoid having to link stuff there during development.
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2017-07-15T13:31:23Z axion:  elderK No, I don't. I add my own directory to ASDF's source registry.
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2017-07-15T13:38:37Z jmarciano: When I use my own ASDF system, how do I prevent this appearing WARNING: DEFUN/DEFMACRO: redefining function IN-USER-CONFIGURATION-DIRECTORY in /home/data1/protected/.cache/common-lisp/clisp-2.49+-unix-x64/home/data1/protected/lib/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/uiop-3.1.7/backward-driver.fas, was defined in /home/data1/protected/lib/lisp/quicklisp/cache/asdf-fasls/0ktqad/asdf.fas -- do I need to clear Quicklisp cache?
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2017-07-15T13:39:21Z malice: elderK: I keep all my projects in fixed position in filesystem
2017-07-15T13:39:26Z malice: like ~/Programming/Lisp
2017-07-15T13:39:43Z malice: and I have this folder added to the asdf's :tree
2017-07-15T13:40:11Z malice: or you can use an existing folder instead, ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2017-07-15T13:40:54Z jmarciano: I know what you mean thanks. Is this related to my private project or quicklisp cache?
2017-07-15T13:41:23Z malice: jmarciano: actually I wasn't talking to you, but to elderK
2017-07-15T13:41:29Z malice: (if you are adressing me)
2017-07-15T13:41:31Z jmarciano: sorry
2017-07-15T13:41:43Z malice: yeah, it's the first time I see problem like this.
2017-07-15T13:42:38Z malice: jmarciano: are you using clisp?
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2017-07-15T13:45:32Z jmarciano: yes
2017-07-15T13:46:10Z jmarciano: I eliminated many of them by realizing I was using image which already had alexandria and some of :depends, but I still have warning left
2017-07-15T13:46:39Z elderK: malice: Thank you, Malice. I just tweaked ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.d
2017-07-15T13:48:04Z jmarciano: if I understand well, if I quicklisp load "asdf", also uiop is loaded, so I do not need to mention "uiop" in system.asd
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2017-07-15T13:53:27Z elderK: I wonder why lispbuilder-sdl didn't use CFFI's groveller.
2017-07-15T13:53:34Z elderK: They've written all the defcstruct stuff by hand.
2017-07-15T13:54:29Z malice: jmarciano: could you show us your .asdf file?
2017-07-15T13:54:56Z malice: Also, to the best of my knowledge, clisp isn't a really great compiler
2017-07-15T13:55:32Z malice: I mean, latest release is quite old, I doubt it's maintained
2017-07-15T13:55:40Z malice: and it has some problems that could be resolved
2017-07-15T13:55:42Z malice: although I don'
2017-07-15T13:55:49Z malice: don't remember the specifics now
2017-07-15T13:56:08Z jmarciano: moment
2017-07-15T13:57:31Z jmarciano: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350915
2017-07-15T13:57:34Z elderK: malice: I'd agree with you there. The only reason I ever use Clisp is to build SBCL.
2017-07-15T13:57:39Z elderK: After that, it's gonnnnneeeeee.
2017-07-15T13:57:47Z elderK: :D Then I rebuild SBCL with SBCL! :D
2017-07-15T13:57:58Z jmarciano: and I am not sure, do I need to list all :depends or just one that asks others in chain.
2017-07-15T13:59:57Z jmarciano: malice: maybe is not, it just works and I use development version, even stable one works.
2017-07-15T14:01:09Z jmarciano: in 99.999% cases it will be my mistake, not CLISP mistake.
2017-07-15T14:01:17Z |3b|: elderK: it might be older than the groveller, and i don't thing the groveller would have helped with that anyway (and would mean people needed a working C compiler to load lispbuilder-sdl)
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2017-07-15T14:02:39Z elderK: |3b|: I see what you mean wrt to requiring a C compiler. But other than that, I think the groveller would've helped.
2017-07-15T14:03:00Z jmarciano: I would like to remove WARNING: Adding method #<STANDARD-METHOD :AFTER (#<STANDARD-CLASS TEST-OP> (EQL #<SYSTEM "spatial-trees">))> to an already called generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION PERFORM> -- but I don't know where to start
2017-07-15T14:03:33Z jmarciano: maybe a system is calling other system which has it loaded already?
2017-07-15T14:03:40Z elderK: |3b|: And aye, I'm not sure how old the Groveller is. Maybe you're right, maybe it didn't exist when LBSDL was being written.
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2017-07-15T14:06:02Z jmarciano: if for example cl-ansi-text which I have in :depends-on also has :depends-on "alexandria" do I need to remove "alexandria" from my ASD file?
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2017-07-15T14:06:34Z |3b|: you should depend on whatever you use, so you don't break if the other lib decides to change their deps
2017-07-15T14:06:36Z elderK: Out of curiosity, what's the usual... system... most people use for unit testing in CL?
2017-07-15T14:06:55Z malice: elderK: none
2017-07-15T14:07:02Z p_l: elderK: lots of options
2017-07-15T14:07:07Z p_l: everyone has their favourites
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2017-07-15T14:07:09Z malice: elderK: there are many, but one of the most popular are fiveam and prove, I guess
2017-07-15T14:07:10Z |3b|: (or if you decide to stop using the intermediate lib)
2017-07-15T14:07:13Z p_l: some people just don't test
2017-07-15T14:07:24Z p_l: some older code uses RT, iirc?
2017-07-15T14:07:31Z malice: jmarciano: just wanted to warn you. Yeah, the file looks okay
2017-07-15T14:08:03Z elderK: p_l: trivial-features uses rt.
2017-07-15T14:08:16Z jmarciano: thanks for review malice
2017-07-15T14:08:34Z p_l: elderK: I think RT is one of the oldest packages around, recall reading some paper on it that really dated it
2017-07-15T14:08:53Z malice: jmarciano: np. I would clear caches and see if it helps, but other than that, I have no idea
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2017-07-15T14:09:10Z jmarciano: yes, how to clear caches?
2017-07-15T14:09:52Z malice: p_l: I believe RT has been created in 1990 and last updated in 1995
2017-07-15T14:10:15Z elderK: Crazy
2017-07-15T14:10:18Z p_l: malice: would fit
2017-07-15T14:10:28Z p_l: elderK: Common Lisp code is quite... long-lived
2017-07-15T14:10:49Z p_l: actually a lot of code is long-lived but usually hampered by dependencies that change under it
2017-07-15T14:11:02Z p_l: CL having a stable standard since 1994 helps a lot
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2017-07-15T14:11:29Z malice: jmarciano: I'd try #'asdf:clear-source-registry
2017-07-15T14:11:29Z elderK: That raises another question: How does CL play with native functions that may block? Provided say, we're calling those native functions via CFFI from some thread, via say bordeaux threads?
2017-07-15T14:12:11Z elderK: p_l: I have no problem with old code if it works, works well. If it hasn't been changed, maybe it simply didn't need to? Maybe it was already perfect :)
2017-07-15T14:12:25Z malice: jmarciano: and maybe remove the cache files?
2017-07-15T14:12:33Z malice: from the path that has been supplied to you
2017-07-15T14:12:36Z malice: right now I'm guessing
2017-07-15T14:13:14Z jmarciano: OK I tried that one, but still
2017-07-15T14:13:44Z jmarciano: I just see, if I remove for example "alexandria" which is anyway loaded by other :depends-on files I get less warnings
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2017-07-15T14:15:25Z elderK: jmarciano: AFAIK, you want to specify *direct dependencies*. Not indirect dependencies.
2017-07-15T14:15:36Z elderK: So if you, for instance, rely on cffi.
2017-07-15T14:15:45Z elderK: You don't need to specify babel, alexandria or trivial-features.
2017-07-15T14:15:54Z elderK: CFFI will take care of bringing them in, if necessary.
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2017-07-15T14:16:02Z jmarciano: aha that is what I was thinking
2017-07-15T14:16:13Z elderK: I believe malice said this a little earlier.
2017-07-15T14:16:44Z jmarciano: but |3b| said I should define to what I depend on, in case other libraries change it.
2017-07-15T14:17:10Z jmarciano: and I see, if I do that cffi-manner it has less warnings, as it is not double loaded.
2017-07-15T14:17:27Z malice: elderK I'm not sure, but I thought his .asdf didn't contain any non-direct deps
2017-07-15T14:17:33Z p_l: jmarciano: if you call alexandria in your code, you should depend on it
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2017-07-15T14:17:52Z p_l: if you don't, but a library you depend on uses it, you don't include it in your system deps
2017-07-15T14:17:57Z elderK: jmarciano: That's what I mean by specify your direct dependencies.
2017-07-15T14:18:10Z malice: jmarciano: No, not really. You only specify your direct deps. If other library changes the deps, it's not your problem.
2017-07-15T14:18:15Z elderK: You can't control what other things depend on - and you shouldn't rely on it, either.
2017-07-15T14:18:19Z elderK: That's their business, not yours.
2017-07-15T14:18:22Z elderK: So: direct deps.
2017-07-15T14:18:28Z elderK: Depend-on ONLY what you requiore.
2017-07-15T14:18:38Z elderK: The systems you require, they take care of bringing in everything they need.
2017-07-15T14:18:47Z elderK: And so on and on and on. Systems! All the way down! :P
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2017-07-15T14:19:58Z elderK: malice: So far prove looks pretty awesome. I like how simple it apears.
2017-07-15T14:19:59Z jmarciano: OK I get it, so I do specify "alexandria" for example.
2017-07-15T14:20:00Z elderK: :D
2017-07-15T14:20:22Z elderK: If your program directly uses stuff from Alex, yes.
2017-07-15T14:20:46Z jmarciano: I was expecting then the ASDF to handle those matters automatically, for example why is ASDF then loading multiple times alexandria...
2017-07-15T14:20:49Z malice: elderK: I've heard nice things about prove. I've been using fiveam myself, but prove has better support for Roswell
2017-07-15T14:20:57Z jmarciano: then I get all the nasty warnings.
2017-07-15T14:21:03Z elderK: I took a peek at roswell... *shrugs*
2017-07-15T14:21:12Z malice: elderK: ?
2017-07-15T14:21:12Z elderK: I still build/install sbcl manually.
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2017-07-15T14:21:32Z elderK: roswell's nice for automating installation of implementations, as well as setting up stuff like quicklisp, right?
2017-07-15T14:21:38Z elderK: It's kind of like... the gateway to CL! :D
2017-07-15T14:21:40Z elderK: The onramp.
2017-07-15T14:21:42Z elderK: :D
2017-07-15T14:21:50Z malice: I use roswell for CI
2017-07-15T14:22:04Z malice: it makes it easier to test multiple implementations at once
2017-07-15T14:22:09Z elderK: That makes sense.
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2017-07-15T14:22:27Z malice: You could use Roswell to write "CL scripts", but I don't really like that, I guess.
2017-07-15T14:22:38Z elderK: I don't use QuickLisp - I was wondering if that's a kind of outmoded way to do things these days.
2017-07-15T14:22:58Z elderK: Not QuickLisp being outmoded - NOT using it, being outmoded.
2017-07-15T14:23:06Z elderK: So far, I'm pretty happy just chugging away with ASDF.
2017-07-15T14:23:09Z malice: wow
2017-07-15T14:23:21Z malice: I can't imagine not using QL
2017-07-15T14:23:23Z malice: it's awesome
2017-07-15T14:23:40Z elderK: I guess not using QL would make CI via Roswell much harder, too.
2017-07-15T14:23:49Z elderK: Like... atm, I have to manually git clone all the shit I need.
2017-07-15T14:23:56Z malice: well, you can load systems via Roswell
2017-07-15T14:24:02Z malice: it has QL built-in
2017-07-15T14:24:07Z malice: so you can use QL without having QL?
2017-07-15T14:24:08Z malice: :D
2017-07-15T14:24:20Z elderK: :P That is very familiar sounding.
2017-07-15T14:24:35Z elderK: :D Edit emacs while you're editing in emacs, dawg! :D
2017-07-15T14:24:51Z malice: You can even download github repositories, so you're not limited to QL's systems
2017-07-15T14:24:52Z malice: which is nice
2017-07-15T14:25:11Z elderK: Anywho, still curious as to how threading works via bourdeaux threads, with respect to native functions that block.
2017-07-15T14:25:17Z elderK: Like say, using epoll or kqueue.
2017-07-15T14:25:53Z malice: you can try yourself :)
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2017-07-15T14:26:08Z elderK: I only ask because many Schemes are green-threaded.
2017-07-15T14:26:35Z elderK: And you when you interface with stuff like epoll, you have to let their runtimes know that it's a blocking call and such.
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2017-07-15T14:27:29Z malice: I see. I haven't been using these threads directly, so I don't know, but I believe they aren't green
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2017-07-15T14:29:01Z elderK: Another question! (Sorry, I'm full of them. I *am* looking at existing projects to try and learn but... you guys are here... so...)
2017-07-15T14:29:27Z elderK: What's the best way to pass say, a buffer that's a vector in CL, to native code? I've seen things like static-vectors about.
2017-07-15T14:29:36Z elderK: I was wondering if we had to copy to/from native buffers.
2017-07-15T14:29:45Z elderK: Or if you'd just foreign-alloc a buffer and use that instead of using CL vectors at all.
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2017-07-15T14:30:42Z elderK: Maybe these questions aren't so important. It's just, I come from C. So, naturally, I've very interested in issues of interfacing CL ro it.
2017-07-15T14:30:45Z elderK: *it
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2017-07-15T14:32:55Z akr[m]: Hello, I wonder if someone could help me with a build error from buildapp/asdf I'm getting. The error is `Component :DE.SETF.AMQP.AMQP-1-1-0-9-1 not found` and it's caused by `--eval "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :de.setf.amqp.amqp-1-1-0-9-1)"` argument to buildapp. Strangely enough, I stared getting the error when I've checkout out another git branch, however when I've switched back to the original branch where it was working,
2017-07-15T14:32:56Z akr[m]: it's still not working. Any ideas?
2017-07-15T14:33:13Z akr[m]: I don't quite know what `de.setf.amqp.amqp-1-1-0-9-1` is
2017-07-15T14:33:27Z pjb: it's the name of a system.
2017-07-15T14:33:31Z elderK: malice and p_l: Thank you for helping me :)
2017-07-15T14:33:35Z pjb: But it seems to be a versionned name.
2017-07-15T14:33:40Z akr[m]: However the build fails with a different error without ir
2017-07-15T14:33:43Z akr[m]: s/ir/it
2017-07-15T14:33:51Z pjb: I would try to quickload de.setf.amqp.amqp or de.setf.amqp instead.
2017-07-15T14:34:20Z pjb: Probably, this exact version is not available from the quicklisp distribution in quicklisp anymore.
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2017-07-15T14:34:39Z pjb: quicklisp doesn't deal directly or explicitely with system versions.
2017-07-15T14:34:40Z akr[m]: hmm, none of those two are found either
2017-07-15T14:35:50Z akr[m]: I don't think this is using quicklisp, though
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2017-07-15T14:37:29Z pjb: Then inspect ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and any other place configured in asdf for your local systems.  Install manually de.setf.amqp there (~/quicklisp/local-projects/).
2017-07-15T14:38:28Z akr[m]: hmm
2017-07-15T14:38:29Z akr[m]: Can you explain why it was compiling just fine until I've switched a branch in git?
2017-07-15T14:38:33Z malice: np
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2017-07-15T14:39:16Z akr[m]: I'm pretty sure the branch switch didn't touch the build process
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2017-07-15T14:47:33Z elderK: Thanks again peeps for your help.
2017-07-15T14:47:35Z elderK slinks off to bed
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2017-07-15T16:32:26Z jmarciano: I would like to understand why is this warning coming up seemingly randomly. http://paste.lisp.org/display/350928
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2017-07-15T16:33:13Z jmarciano: I can turn on some of those :depends-on files, and will get other similar warnings, and I tried to isolate it, but it happens too often.
2017-07-15T16:33:40Z Bike: well that's a bizarre warning for clisp to throw you
2017-07-15T16:34:46Z loke: also, CLISP is kinda obsolete
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2017-07-15T16:36:11Z loke: although, interestingly enough, there have been commits to the source repository last month
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2017-07-15T16:36:45Z Bike: i don't see this behavior mentioned in the manual
2017-07-15T16:36:55Z jmarciano: those warnings are related to asdf
2017-07-15T16:37:09Z jmarciano: as test-op class is in asdf
2017-07-15T16:37:23Z Bike: well, yes, it defines a method on perform, which is a perfectly fine thing to do
2017-07-15T16:37:29Z Bike: but clisp doesn't like it for some inexplicable reason
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2017-07-15T16:42:55Z jmarciano: on the other hand, SBCL does not load that file, complaining about EOF, while clisp does load
2017-07-15T16:42:59Z jmarciano: related to cl-emb
2017-07-15T16:43:14Z jmarciano: and I use cl-emb hundreds of thousands times
2017-07-15T16:43:46Z Bike: doesn't load what file?
2017-07-15T16:45:06Z jmarciano: during compiling SBCL is complaining on CL-EMB
2017-07-15T16:46:03Z jmarciano: now not in second time, cannot know why, but some code was excluded
2017-07-15T16:46:19Z jmarciano: ;     (ERROR "EOF reached in EMB inside open '~A' tag." CL-EMB:*EMB-START-MARKER*)
2017-07-15T16:46:19Z Bike: (ql:quickload :cl-emb) got me no messages here
2017-07-15T16:46:19Z jmarciano:  
2017-07-15T16:46:24Z jmarciano: ;   "EOF reached in EMB inside open '~A' tag."
2017-07-15T16:46:25Z jmarciano:  
2017-07-15T16:46:34Z jmarciano: yes but you did not compile it
2017-07-15T16:46:37Z Bike: oh, it's not a problem in loading emb, it's a problem in using emb
2017-07-15T16:46:41Z Bike: i certainly did compile it
2017-07-15T16:47:07Z jmarciano: you mean I use cl-emb ?
2017-07-15T16:47:19Z jmarciano: In that example not at all, there is just empty file. I am just loading stuff.
2017-07-15T16:47:27Z Bike: I mean, that error message is obviously somewhere inside cl-emb
2017-07-15T16:47:32Z Bike: it is not a problem with compiling the cl-emb system
2017-07-15T16:47:51Z Bike: unless it uses itself, and incorrectly, which i guess is possible, but seems unlikely
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2017-07-15T16:48:20Z Bike: what is empty-test, just a blank file?
2017-07-15T16:48:23Z jmarciano: something like that seem to be
2017-07-15T16:48:34Z jmarciano: yes
2017-07-15T16:48:51Z jmarciano: it can be anything, I am trying to find out those warnings that CLISP is giving
2017-07-15T16:48:58Z jmarciano: I mean anything short
2017-07-15T16:50:02Z Bike: the warning in your paste is just from https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre/blob/master/cl-ppcre.asd#L83-L85
2017-07-15T16:50:15Z Bike: which is perfectly fine, but clisp is warning because it's dumb i guess
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2017-07-15T16:52:27Z jmarciano: it is a bug or not a bug. I don't think it is a bug.
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2017-07-15T16:53:46Z Bike: ppcre's code is not a bug. clisp's reacting to it with a warning is silly but not a bug in clisp exactly, i guess.
2017-07-15T16:54:34Z jmarciano: Ok I will ask in their mailing list.
2017-07-15T16:55:17Z Bike: i don't think clisp is maintained. (well, i guess it is, if there's a recent commit)
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2017-07-15T16:55:42Z jmarciano: it is, don't owrry
2017-07-15T16:56:13Z aeth: iirc, clisp is maintained enough to get new commits, but not maintained enough to get a new release
2017-07-15T16:56:25Z Bike: sourceforge says it hasn't been modified since 2010, did it move?
2017-07-15T16:56:47Z aeth: I always check github because there's usually a github mirror if the project's not there
2017-07-15T16:57:29Z aeth: This mirror has Mar 24 as the last commit, which doesn't mean that's the last actual commit. https://github.com/rurban/clisp
2017-07-15T16:57:29Z Bike: clisp.org is on sourceforge
2017-07-15T16:57:49Z jmarciano: CLISP is running pretty well, it is mature software, while I run development version.
2017-07-15T16:58:04Z jmarciano: And I use mercurial, I don't know about git
2017-07-15T16:58:27Z aeth: The source of that mirror is hg and says "2 weeks ago". http://hg.code.sf.net/p/clisp/clisp
2017-07-15T16:58:44Z aeth: Were you looking at their published versions? Or perhaps an old CVS or SVN repo?
2017-07-15T16:58:57Z Bike: i was looking at the link to the source on clisp.org
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2017-07-15T16:59:12Z Bike: under "our official distribution sites"
2017-07-15T16:59:20Z Bike: if they forgot to update that, fine
2017-07-15T16:59:39Z aeth: In the Lisp world, all documentation is out of date if it exists. :-)
2017-07-15T17:00:18Z serviteur: if it exists, indeed :)))
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2017-07-15T17:02:27Z jmarciano: CLISP has readline, for that reason is very usable in REPL
2017-07-15T17:02:41Z jmarciano: And it makes image of 20 megabytes instad 60 like SBCL.
2017-07-15T17:03:23Z jmarciano: by the way I am willing to find programmer to convert some C++ mathematical formulars to Lisp
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2017-07-15T17:03:50Z jmarciano: I would pay few hundred dollars for the job to get it done properly, even who knows to read C++ this could be just few hours of work (or few days)
2017-07-15T17:04:04Z aeth: jmarciano: enjoy SBCL: http://paste.lisp.org/+7IS2
2017-07-15T17:05:01Z aeth: if readline is the main point
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2017-07-15T17:05:13Z aeth: I used to use clisp when I needed an in-terminal Lisp, but now I use that script
2017-07-15T17:06:16Z jmarciano: I will definitely try that
2017-07-15T17:06:38Z jmarciano: but that means I need to make list of all functions myself somehow
2017-07-15T17:06:44Z aeth: You might have to modify it a bit to get it to work for you. I did. I am not the originator of that script. Iirc, someone else in #lisp is.
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2017-07-15T17:07:46Z aeth: I'm guessing there was a $HOME/.sbcl_completions that the original author had.
2017-07-15T17:08:15Z jmarciano: interesting really.
2017-07-15T17:08:20Z jmarciano: I must try that one
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2017-07-15T17:12:27Z aeth: Unrelated trick, but something I find very uesful is to do this if you're using the REPL as a calculator instead of to write programs: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float)
2017-07-15T17:13:07Z aeth: In a program, you might want the speed and lack of consing of single-float, but quick REPL usage probably requires doubles to get the right answer.
2017-07-15T17:13:50Z aeth: In some Lisps (CLISP and ECL?), 'long-float might be preferable.
2017-07-15T17:13:56Z jmarciano: Ohhh yes, that one gave me headaches before.
2017-07-15T17:14:12Z jmarciano: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'DOUBLE-FLOAT)
2017-07-15T17:14:12Z jmarciano: (setf *default-float-format* 'DOUBLE-FLOAT)
2017-07-15T17:14:12Z jmarciano:  
2017-07-15T17:14:18Z jmarciano: I use both in mathematical stuff.
2017-07-15T17:14:47Z jmarciano: Before months somebody explained it to me, I guess here.
2017-07-15T17:15:40Z jmarciano: it makes a difference when geographical coordinates are calculated
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2017-07-15T17:16:36Z aeth: Anything large.
2017-07-15T17:17:00Z aeth: e.g. anything where you'd want to write the scientific notation like 1283d-23
2017-07-15T17:17:06Z aeth: well, sort of scientific notation
2017-07-15T17:17:20Z aeth: (Anything large or small, my example is small.)
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2017-07-15T17:18:34Z jmarciano: nice
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2017-07-15T17:27:56Z aeth: Another trick I use is to autoload alexandria.
2017-07-15T17:28:33Z aeth: It has a lot of calculator stuff (e.g. mean, binomial-coefficient, factorial) and a lot of stuff for quick programming one-liners (e.g. curry/rcurry)
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2017-07-15T17:29:01Z jmarciano: did not use it. But I made Alexandria part of the image.
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2017-07-15T17:29:14Z jmarciano: I hate waiting on "loading", so I make image with systems, and load that one.
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2017-07-15T18:08:50Z jmarciano: aeth: well it is completing even the files
2017-07-15T18:09:34Z jmarciano: I would need to construct all variables and functions, like list of it to get better completion.
2017-07-15T18:10:52Z jmarciano: not bad for files, even it is too much...
2017-07-15T18:10:56Z aeth: Why not just use SLIME?
2017-07-15T18:11:15Z jmarciano: it is not REPL
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2017-07-15T18:11:39Z Bike: huh?
2017-07-15T18:11:47Z jmarciano: When I construct programs, I use it of course.
2017-07-15T18:11:47Z aeth: *slime-repl foo-lisp* with paredit (or something similar) is basically everything that one needs, and then some
2017-07-15T18:11:47Z Bike: listing all symbols doesn't sound bad though.
2017-07-15T18:12:10Z jmarciano: Maybe from your viewpoint is so, but from teaching viewpoint not so.
2017-07-15T18:12:34Z Bike: (do-external-symbols (s :cl) (fresh-line completions) (write (symbol-name s) :stream completions))
2017-07-15T18:13:29Z jmarciano: completions is missing
2017-07-15T18:13:38Z jmarciano: variable completions unbound
2017-07-15T18:14:09Z Bike: well, yeah, i meant that you'd open a file and stuff
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2017-07-15T18:16:12Z jmarciano: I need that file, I don't have it
2017-07-15T18:16:20Z jmarciano: or is there a way to export all symbols from SBCL
2017-07-15T18:16:55Z Bike: yes the code writes the file
2017-07-15T18:16:59Z Bike: do you know how to do file i/o in lisp?
2017-07-15T18:17:52Z jmarciano: normal stuff, pipe inputs and opening files, yes.
2017-07-15T18:18:11Z Bike: okay, so open a file and use that form to write symbols into it
2017-07-15T18:18:17Z Bike: 'completions' being the name of the stream
2017-07-15T18:18:52Z jmarciano: I see.
2017-07-15T18:19:30Z jmarciano: Did not know that command
2017-07-15T18:20:24Z jmarciano: That makes sense, than each implementation with rlwrap or rlfe can have symbol completion and history.
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2017-07-15T18:23:59Z jmarciano: where on which website can I find people to do some programming in lisp for hire
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2017-07-15T18:31:15Z JuanDaugherty is not interested in 'a few hundred bucks' 
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2017-07-15T18:36:07Z mm__: hi all
2017-07-15T18:37:17Z mm__: did someone here know a good implementation of caesar cipher in written in lisp?
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2017-07-15T18:40:34Z Bike: (defvar *alphabet" "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz") (defun alpha-code (char) (position char *alphabet*)) (defun code-alpha (code) (char *alphabet* code)) (defun caesar (string n) (map 'string (lambda (c) (code-alpha (mod (+ n (alpha-code c)) 26))) string))
2017-07-15T18:40:54Z aeth: All you really need is an incf-mod/decf-mod for that, e.g. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-brainfuck/blob/master/brainfuck.lisp#L22-33
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2017-07-15T18:42:09Z aeth: I prefer to implement incf-mod/decf-mod and mod+/mod- (in several places actually, I should make a library) because I think tiny helper functions/macros that express things exactly are more idiomatic Lisp.
2017-07-15T18:42:21Z mm__: thanks
2017-07-15T18:43:40Z pjb: Bike: you have to take into account non-*alphabet* character to encode caesar. Either filtering them, or leaving them alone.
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2017-07-15T18:49:10Z aeth: pjb: what I'd probably do is use code-char and char-code to have the A-Z, a-z ranges (although this non-portably assumes that the char-code/code-char system has A-Z in a row and then a-z in a row)
2017-07-15T18:49:25Z aeth: and ignore the rest
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2017-07-15T18:50:01Z aeth: One could also set different ranges to cycle over, and non-portably assume unicode or something.
2017-07-15T18:51:36Z aeth: i.e. (vector (char-code #\Z) (char-code #\A) (char-code #\z) (char-code #\a))
2017-07-15T18:53:45Z aeth: actually, you'd only need the #\A and #\a if you assume they're cycles of 26 characters with e.g. a at (+ lower-case-a-position 0) and the last at (+ lower-case-a-position 25)
2017-07-15T18:59:09Z aeth: (My assumption of a range of letters breaks down if your Lisp uses e.g. EBCDIC)
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2017-07-15T20:45:54Z jmarciano: is there a way to get LISP result in Emacs buffer directly just like I can do it with Emacs Lisp
2017-07-15T20:46:33Z jmarciano: OK I found slime-eval-print-last-expression
2017-07-15T20:46:58Z Bike: usually i'd use the repl tho.
2017-07-15T20:48:50Z jmarciano: I know it is beautiful in the clouds, but when you are too long there, you miss the earth.
2017-07-15T20:50:09Z Bike: i don't... are you saying i'm stuck up? it's not like the repl isn't available to you either
2017-07-15T20:50:29Z jmarciano: you are joking
2017-07-15T20:51:18Z jmarciano: I do use REPL all the time, more than SLIME, it depends if I am writing something or calculating, or running some programs
2017-07-15T20:51:18Z Bike: on the contrary, i have no sense of humor
2017-07-15T20:51:27Z Bike: sure
2017-07-15T20:51:32Z jmarciano: I guess I don't know you to confirm it.
2017-07-15T20:51:38Z Bike: it sounded like you were using a terminal's repl though
2017-07-15T20:51:46Z Bike: thus rlwrap
2017-07-15T20:51:47Z jmarciano: exactly
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2017-07-15T20:51:55Z jmarciano: That one was for SBCL, I use CLISP mostly
2017-07-15T20:51:57Z Bike: i meant, there's also the slime repl
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2017-07-15T20:52:05Z jmarciano: Yes sure, boring.
2017-07-15T20:52:23Z Bike: uh, ok. guess you know what you're doing and what you want.
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2017-07-15T20:52:44Z jmarciano: I need less then a second to open REPL, and I need way longer to come into Emacs, Slime, to get REPL, makes no sense.
2017-07-15T20:53:19Z Bike: usually i leave slime open, as a persistent environment.
2017-07-15T20:53:19Z jmarciano: My REPL is bound to C-t l in stumpwm, and it just comes up, less than a second, with all the functions prepared.
2017-07-15T20:53:47Z jmarciano: I believe it is also here persistent
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2017-07-15T20:54:15Z jmarciano: you mean *inferior-lisp*?
2017-07-15T20:54:26Z Bike: no, inferior lisp sucks
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2017-07-15T20:54:28Z Bike: M-x slime-repl
2017-07-15T20:54:36Z Bike: has completions and so on
2017-07-15T20:54:38Z jmarciano: I don't have that one
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2017-07-15T20:55:06Z Bike: i think you need to do, uh.... (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) in your emacs configuration
2017-07-15T20:55:07Z jmarciano: ok I can try now
2017-07-15T20:55:20Z jmarciano: I just needed Marmalade
2017-07-15T20:58:08Z jmarciano: still I don't see how to start it. The above one is not working
2017-07-15T20:58:39Z jmarciano: slime-face-inheritance-p problem
2017-07-15T20:58:51Z jmarciano: *-possible-p
2017-07-15T20:59:09Z jmarciano: never mind
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2017-07-15T21:04:05Z tetero: jmarciano: Fellow stump user eh? Nice!
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2017-07-15T21:07:19Z jmarciano: quick, efficient
2017-07-15T21:07:33Z jmarciano: even I often get stuck into C-t w to see which is which window
2017-07-15T21:08:23Z jmarciano: It somehow makes sense to run Window Manager in SBCL, where runs Emacs and CLISP in background.
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2017-07-15T21:11:46Z tetero: jmarciano: Oh I typically tend to split when I have more than one window, and mode-line helps if you're into that
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2017-07-15T21:12:16Z tetero: and yeah, I love having it in lisp/sbcl
2017-07-15T21:12:34Z jmarciano: My laptop is smaller for splitting. And I enlarge all letters to watch easy from more than 1 meter with extended keyboard.
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2017-07-15T21:12:58Z jmarciano: I just wish I can paste from StumpWM into the Xterminal directly.
2017-07-15T21:14:19Z jmarciano: Something like (defcommand rcd-paste () ()
2017-07-15T21:14:19Z jmarciano:   (window-send-string (get-x-selection)))
2017-07-15T21:14:19Z jmarciano: and then to bind it to a key that I can paste clipboard to terminal.
2017-07-15T21:15:34Z tetero: Ah. Well, make it
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2017-07-15T21:16:18Z tetero: Although, what is it that you need to copy/paste between? Your terminal and most apps should support that
2017-07-15T21:16:25Z jmarciano: (define-key *root-map* (kbd "=") "rcd-paste") I have that like this, but is not getting into terminal
2017-07-15T21:16:37Z tetero: Which terminal?
2017-07-15T21:16:40Z jmarciano: xterm
2017-07-15T21:16:48Z tetero: I haven't used that in ages
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2017-07-15T21:17:43Z tetero: jmarciano: have you tried selecting the window and triggering shift-insert?
2017-07-15T21:18:57Z jmarciano: ohhh that one works
2017-07-15T21:19:14Z jmarciano: is that Stumpwm or xterm feature?
2017-07-15T21:19:27Z tetero: jmarciano: xterm, the copy/paste stuff is specific to each terminal emulator
2017-07-15T21:19:41Z jmarciano: well now I have it
2017-07-15T21:20:18Z jmarciano: Otherwise I would need to bend over the bed to use the mouse pad...
2017-07-15T21:20:29Z tetero: Yeah, midclick
2017-07-15T21:20:48Z jmarciano: I wonder if there is some mouse by keyboard program.
2017-07-15T21:21:25Z jmarciano: That I don't need to use mouse, just keyboard.
2017-07-15T21:21:46Z tetero: jmarciano: xbindkeys perhaps
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2017-07-15T21:23:10Z jmarciano: that one would work if I would have shell program to move mouse pointer
2017-07-15T21:25:05Z jmarciano: that one is basically a built-in in StumpWM
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2017-07-15T21:26:11Z tetero: jmarciano: xdotool? :)
2017-07-15T21:26:36Z tetero: jmarciano: It both moves the mouse and clicks. I use it a lot
2017-07-15T21:27:02Z tetero: You can also use stumpish to select the window
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2017-07-15T21:29:44Z jmarciano: let me see that
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2017-07-15T21:30:50Z jmarciano: compiling
2017-07-15T21:34:55Z PuercoPop: jmarciano: you can use the xtest extension to send mouse clicks from lisp. its implemented in CLX
2017-07-15T21:36:38Z jmarciano: I can move mouse?
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2017-07-15T21:40:21Z jmarciano: I don't need a mouse, programs need a mouse more than me, like some make programs for sake of programs, and not of people.
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2017-07-15T21:50:34Z jmarciano: xdotool is interesting, but I need to program the mouse to move one by one.
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2017-07-15T21:55:59Z phoe: beach: You have your style guide in the SICL repository. Do you think you could extract it into a separate document?
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2017-07-16T03:12:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-07-16T03:13:01Z beach: phoe: It is not finished.
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2017-07-16T05:59:10Z antonv: hi all
2017-07-16T05:59:15Z antonv: check this out: https://github.com/avodonosov/ql-asdf-chooser
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2017-07-16T08:14:46Z phoe: beach: I see - thanks.
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2017-07-16T08:15:38Z phoe: I am asking because I asked a question which style guide should be on top at https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6nf3g4/ and currently the most upvoted comment is "none", which is troublesome.
2017-07-16T08:16:32Z jack_rabbit: The lisper spirit seems counter to style guides.
2017-07-16T08:18:49Z phoe: jack_rabbit: what do you mean?
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2017-07-16T08:20:22Z jack_rabbit: Lisp seems to me to be very free-form, and on purpose.
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2017-07-16T08:20:38Z phoe: "Even with cruise control, you have to steer."
2017-07-16T08:20:46Z beach: jack_rabbit: On the contrary, it is probably one of the languages with the most agreed-upon conventions.
2017-07-16T08:20:50Z phoe:                    ~ 4chan, commenting on caps lock being the cruise control for cool
2017-07-16T08:21:36Z jack_rabbit: beach, Sure, but they seem rarely stated explicitly.
2017-07-16T08:22:02Z phoe: Yes, that's exactly why the question about a style guide does not have a good answer up there.
2017-07-16T08:22:05Z beach: jack_rabbit: Maybe that's why phoe is trying to fix it.
2017-07-16T08:22:18Z phoe: Other than, whatever emacs does to indent your code is good enough.
2017-07-16T08:22:18Z beach: phoe: The Google guide is pretty complete as I recall.  Fare wrote it, right?
2017-07-16T08:22:44Z phoe: I think so, yes, though there is an argument against it being on top in the link that I put up there.
2017-07-16T08:22:44Z jack_rabbit: beach, Yes. I'm questioning whether it needs fixing.
2017-07-16T08:22:56Z jackdaniel: but it is true that people have their preferences and find constructs more convenient than others. For instance style guides like: "never use DO, use LOOP", "use structures over classes" (or vice versa), "don't use aux" etc. doesn't make good style guide, but I've found some remarks like that in some guides afair
2017-07-16T08:23:36Z beach: jack_rabbit: It does.  The number of times that I have recited a large part of it to people who post code for us to read here is more than I would have preferred.
2017-07-16T08:23:41Z jackdaniel: on the other hand, some conventions about indent, variable naming *earmuffs*, +constants+ make a lot of sense and many people agree on them
2017-07-16T08:24:04Z jack_rabbit: Fair enough. You've read more lisp than I have.
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2017-07-16T08:25:34Z jackdaniel: the most important style advice I've had (not CL-specific) is to follow conventions used in the project you contribute to
2017-07-16T08:25:41Z phoe: on the yet another hand there is a notion of <classes> that is not common, I have only seen it used in clack for example.
2017-07-16T08:25:48Z beach: jackdaniel: That's why in the SICL documentation, I split it into two parts, general guidelines and SICL-specific ones.
2017-07-16T08:26:58Z jackdaniel: phoe: this convention was stated in EuLisp standard draft. It is important for lisp-1, where functions, variables and classes share the same namespace
2017-07-16T08:27:17Z beach: phoe: I think it was invented by fukamachi, or rather, copied from Dylan, and then a few other Lispers adopted it, like eudoxia.
2017-07-16T08:27:52Z beach: jackdaniel: Ah, interesting.  Which one was first?  Dylan or EuLisp?
2017-07-16T08:28:41Z beach hereby warns everyone that he is in a rotten mood today.
2017-07-16T08:30:22Z jackdaniel: I don't know really
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2017-07-16T08:31:12Z beach: Dylan: It was created in the early 1990s by a group led by Apple Computer.
2017-07-16T08:31:44Z loke: I kinda like the <foo> convention, but I don't ahdere to it since no one else does. :-)
2017-07-16T08:31:44Z beach: EuLisp: Language definition process first began in a meeting in 1985 in Paris and took a long time. The complete specification and a first implementation (interpreted-only) was available in 1990.
2017-07-16T08:31:53Z beach: loke: That's the spirit.
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2017-07-16T08:32:28Z loke: beach: I'm not entirely sure if you'r ebeing sarcastic, and if you are, which part you're being sarcastic about :-)
2017-07-16T08:32:40Z beach: I recommend the book and talks by Steven Pinker.  He is not talking about programming languages, but the idea is the same.
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2017-07-16T08:32:49Z beach: Not sarcastic.
2017-07-16T08:32:57Z beach: That is exactly how to think about it.
2017-07-16T08:33:30Z jackdaniel: I have mixed feeling about that. Such approach makes style evolution impossible.
2017-07-16T08:33:36Z beach: Pinker says that acceptable style is a matter of "tacit conventions" susceptible to slow evolution over time.
2017-07-16T08:33:55Z beach: jackdaniel: Not true.
2017-07-16T08:33:59Z jackdaniel: For instance if nobody used *earmuffs* in '80s, and nobody would use them, because nobody uses them, we wouldn't have this visual aid for special variables
2017-07-16T08:34:49Z loke: I have a personal style which it comes to naming accessor methods though, which I stick to, but I'm not actually convinced is good. I don' thave a better one though... I name my accessors using the form CLASS/NAME, So bar slot in foo is named foo/bar.
2017-07-16T08:34:54Z beach: jackdaniel: It evolves SLOWLY as a result of SOME individuals OCCASIONALLY invent a new convention that MOST others find useful.
2017-07-16T08:36:16Z beach: loke: It has the problem that when you do that with the baz subclass of foo, you get (foo/bar baz) which looks very strange.  Check for instance (clim:sheet-parent gadget).
2017-07-16T08:36:28Z jackdaniel: beach: given that there is no communication between every pair of programmers, and say fukamachi uses <class> - most of them find it useful yet nobody uses it, because nobody uses it. My point is - it's hard to determine synchronically that MOST others find it useful. So either it is adopted gradually (one-by-one), or not at all
2017-07-16T08:36:45Z beach: loke: Aside from the slash, the convention exists.
2017-07-16T08:36:52Z jackdaniel: but I may be wrong on that, as I've said, I have mixed feelings about that.
2017-07-16T08:37:06Z jackdaniel: I have to redact blog post about EQL5 on Android to put it on ECL blog
2017-07-16T08:37:15Z jackdaniel: I'll check on latero /
2017-07-16T08:38:28Z loke: beach: Yes. I changed to a slash after I had too many annoying names where both the class name and slot names had minus signs in them, like user-manager-status-signature-type (just an invented name)
2017-07-16T08:38:28Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, natural languages evolve despite the existence of a centralized mechanism.
2017-07-16T08:38:58Z loke: You can't tell where to split between class anem slot
2017-07-16T08:39:17Z beach: loke: I much prefer the simple solution: (parent sheet) (parent gadget) (parent pane)
2017-07-16T08:39:44Z loke: beach: Yes. I'm starting to agree with that. It's just that I haven't reached the point where I change yet.
2017-07-16T08:39:50Z loke: Perhaps on my next project?
2017-07-16T08:39:58Z beach: No rush. :)
2017-07-16T08:40:21Z loke: I also kinda like the slotname-OF style... as in (name :accessor name-of)
2017-07-16T08:40:33Z beach: Hmm, now I wonder whether the class-slot convention was inherited from structs.
2017-07-16T08:40:46Z loke: beach: Almost certainly.
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2017-07-16T08:41:17Z beach: Structs probably typically didn't have as deep an inheritance graph as standard classes do, which is why it was less problematic for structs.
2017-07-16T08:41:40Z loke: Indeed
2017-07-16T08:42:55Z beach: jackdaniel: I meant "Yet, natural languages...".
2017-07-16T08:43:55Z loke: Is there any rational reason to even have structs in CL (other than backwards compatibility?)
2017-07-16T08:44:18Z beach: Supposedly the can have better performance.
2017-07-16T08:44:32Z shka: well, I adopted const interface convention from LIL
2017-07-16T08:44:38Z beach: Because of the allowed restrictions on semantics, no indirection is required.
2017-07-16T08:44:47Z shka: but nobody else did :D
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2017-07-16T08:45:33Z jackdaniel: I believe (that would require proper research to claim it though), that new words start with an individual who comes up with  new word / construct, then with his closest circle of friends (internet speeds it up) - sometimes despised by others (i.e adults) as not clean language, and then it spreads further - gradually
2017-07-16T08:45:36Z beach: shka: You (and everyone else) can of course do whatever you want in your own code.  The problems arise when unconventional code is submitted to others.
2017-07-16T08:46:00Z shka: yup
2017-07-16T08:46:19Z beach: jackdaniel: Pinker did the research.  again, I recommend his writing and hist talks related to his book about style.
2017-07-16T08:46:24Z jackdaniel: sometimes it is that only the next generation uses the new word / construct, but with time it becomes part of the "official" and "agreed" language
2017-07-16T08:46:48Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, that's definitely part of the mechanism.
2017-07-16T08:47:55Z jackdaniel: so it is withtout the centralized mechanism, yet it is not: most people find it useful, so they start to use it. It's just more and more people use it until it is acceptable
2017-07-16T08:48:40Z jackdaniel: if the circle of the individual friend wouldn't spread the new word, it wouldn't exist outside his own dictionary, hence language evolution would be stopped
2017-07-16T08:48:46Z shka: anyway, i think that most of us have private style
2017-07-16T08:48:55Z shka: and no matter what, it will stay this way
2017-07-16T08:49:10Z jackdaniel: s/individual friend/individual friends/
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2017-07-16T08:50:04Z beach: shka: Sure, just don't submit your code for others to read.
2017-07-16T08:50:11Z shka: but at the very least it would be nice to point out one and say "this one does not totally suck"
2017-07-16T08:50:16Z beach warned you that he is in a rotten mood.
2017-07-16T08:50:55Z shka: oh, well
2017-07-16T08:51:16Z shka: i hope that you will feel better soon :-)
2017-07-16T08:51:23Z beach: I will, thanks.
2017-07-16T08:51:42Z beach: Now I will go fix lunch for the guests that are due to arrive in a few minutes.
2017-07-16T08:53:01Z shka: this explains rotten mood? :D
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2017-07-16T09:33:24Z akr[m]: Hello
2017-07-16T09:33:39Z akr[m]: how do I search for what a function does? Is there some canonical resource?
2017-07-16T09:34:11Z akr[m]: I don't even know whether it comes from some library, this project, or is standard
2017-07-16T09:34:15Z akr[m]: the function is `with-assoc-values2`
2017-07-16T09:34:20Z akr[m]: google can't find it :<
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2017-07-16T09:35:44Z axion: That naming convention suggests it is not a function
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2017-07-16T09:36:14Z akr[m]: the with- part suggests it's a macro?
2017-07-16T09:36:37Z axion: Right
2017-07-16T09:36:53Z akr[m]: okay, still, how do I find it's definition / docs / something
2017-07-16T09:37:07Z akr[m]: just did a grep in the project, looks like it's not from here
2017-07-16T09:37:53Z axion: So, what is the package prefix?
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2017-07-16T09:38:06Z akr[m]: there isn't one
2017-07-16T09:38:33Z axion: Well unless you are using use-package or the equivalent, all symbols will be prefixed by the package they are defined in, if it isn't current, and isn't a keyword, as far as I know.
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2017-07-16T09:39:09Z akr[m]: hmm, there is only an `in-package` at the top of the file
2017-07-16T09:39:35Z axion: Why don't you just invoke DOCUMENTATION or DESCRIBE on the symbol?
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2017-07-16T09:40:44Z akr[m]: I need slime for that, right?
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2017-07-16T09:41:54Z akr[m]: sorry, I'm a bit of a CL noob
2017-07-16T09:41:55Z axion: No, but you should most definitely be using it anyway. You could M-. to jump to the definition if you were, but I was giving a general approach
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2017-07-16T09:42:29Z akr[m]: yeah, I tried jump to the definition, but emacs says that no handler could find it or something
2017-07-16T09:43:41Z axion: Then slime/sly are not installed properly. I would go back to the beginning and start there. Without it, you will be lost. Even seasoned Common Lisp developers rely on it greatly...it is a staple.
2017-07-16T09:45:38Z akr[m]: when I try to disassemble symbol on it, I get 'The function COMMON-LISP-USER::WITH-ASSOC-VALUES2 is undefined'
2017-07-16T09:47:51Z axion: That's because I already mentioned it is not a function, and why would you want to view the disassembly of it anyway?
2017-07-16T09:48:26Z akr[m]: not sure how slime is supposed to handle dependencies, this project doesn't use quicklisp, it just passes the path to dependencies as --asdf-tree to buildapp
2017-07-16T09:49:04Z axion: You are going about everything the wrong way
2017-07-16T09:49:22Z akr[m]: well, I wasn't there when this project was setup :(
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2017-07-16T09:51:02Z axion: If you are new to Common Lisp as you say you are, your first step should be installing and configuring SLIME and Quicklisp. Second step is to read Practical Common Lisp. The only other way leads to the path of frustration
2017-07-16T09:51:33Z akr[m]: well, I've written a bit in some other lisps, I just find the package ecosystem confusing
2017-07-16T09:51:36Z akr[m]: in CL
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2017-07-16T09:52:07Z axion: Then you haven't bothered with step 2
2017-07-16T09:52:30Z akr[m]: no, I thought I might be able to skip it :P
2017-07-16T09:52:37Z akr[m]: or at least do it later
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2017-07-16T09:53:31Z akr[m]: ah okay I remember that book now, I've read a few chapters
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2017-07-16T09:53:52Z akr[m]: I guess I wanna read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2017-07-16T09:54:46Z axion: That book is very linear in nature. You should read it front to back and do all the practicals.
2017-07-16T09:55:03Z axion: Skipping around doesn't really help you, considering the questions you already asked.
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2017-07-16T09:56:29Z akr[m]: idk, do I really need to read about variables an basic data types and I/O?
2017-07-16T09:56:56Z akr[m]: lists, even
2017-07-16T10:00:21Z axion: I think you can decide whether or not you know how to manipulate cons cells well enough to skip one of the most important chapters and practical hands on experience.
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2017-07-16T10:03:15Z akr[m]: okay, well, thanks for the info anyway
2017-07-16T10:03:26Z akr[m]: I'll be honest though, I don't really have the time to read the whole book atm
2017-07-16T10:04:22Z axion: http://weitz.de/packages.html
2017-07-16T10:05:05Z axion: Then read that for now, but if you want to learn a language, set some time aside for it :)
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2017-07-16T10:41:38Z akr[m]: axion: great, thank you :)
2017-07-16T10:41:52Z akr[m]: yeah I probably will have to learn CL in more detail sooner or later
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2017-07-16T12:33:12Z clintm: Xach: if you have a free second at some point, I have a question re. amazon and request signing that, from looking at the irc logs, it looks like you have run in to as well.
2017-07-16T12:34:42Z Xach: clintm: oukkei!
2017-07-16T12:34:54Z Xach: I thought I had it all worked out lately
2017-07-16T12:36:18Z clintm: Oh, no, your code is fine.  It's my code that's throwing errors.  I have a signed request url *that works in the scratchpad* but doesn't when I try to fetch it with drakma.  I have sys locale set to utf8, content is charset=utf8, but I still get signaturedoesnotmatch errors.
2017-07-16T12:36:30Z Xach: scratchpad?
2017-07-16T12:36:43Z Xach: Is this for S3 or something else?
2017-07-16T12:36:50Z clintm: Yea, for this api there's a "try your url and confirm your signature, etc".
2017-07-16T12:37:02Z clintm: It's for the product advertising api.
2017-07-16T12:37:55Z Xach: Hmm, when that happens, I usually have to stare carefully at the "you signed"/"we signed" output
2017-07-16T12:38:41Z clintm: Ok, so there's not tribal knowledge with drakma and amazon requests that I'm missing then... as usual, the problem is me. hehe.
2017-07-16T12:39:07Z clintm: s/not/no
2017-07-16T12:39:36Z Xach: 87% of the time it ends up being something silly for me, like missing a field or something.
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2017-07-16T12:41:31Z clintm: That's what I thought, until I tested the signed url that I generated in their tool.  I'll go get coffee, come back and stare at it, think really hard, and it'll probably come to me.  Actually, it'll probably come to me when I stop thinking about it.  That's how it usually works.
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2017-07-16T12:47:28Z Xach: clintm: i have made the most progress with diffing the "we signed" thing
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2017-07-16T12:52:59Z loke: Xach: I recall having issues with that stuff too, until I didn't. :-)
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2017-07-16T14:41:12Z phoe: The land of C is such a weird one.
2017-07-16T14:41:24Z phoe: ESPECIALLY when revisited from an interactive land, such as the Lisp REPL.
2017-07-16T14:42:38Z phoe: Suddenly, I don't write programs in Notepad and compile them with gcc. I can play with C interactively, from the REPL, instantiate structures, poke and peek memory locations.
2017-07-16T14:43:01Z phoe: When they were teaching me C, why the hell didn't they teach it *this* way?
2017-07-16T14:43:12Z phoe ranting, is using CFFI for the first time in his life.
2017-07-16T14:43:18Z dispersed: normal people can run C in their minds
2017-07-16T14:43:37Z dispersed: C with the mind's eye
2017-07-16T14:43:44Z phoe: that was a terrible pun
2017-07-16T14:43:49Z phoe: (incf dispersed)
2017-07-16T14:44:45Z dispersed: all but thank you
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2017-07-16T15:04:20Z pjb: dispersed: normal people cannot run C in their minds.  They can only imagine they can run it, and they're wrong, wrong and wrong.
2017-07-16T15:07:12Z dispersed: yeah you're right it's more like chilling out
2017-07-16T15:07:23Z dispersed: running conveys a panicky feeling you don't get with C
2017-07-16T15:08:01Z dispersed: Simply open your mind's eye and C for yourself.
2017-07-16T15:08:12Z dispersed: it's all in the void
2017-07-16T15:08:45Z dispersed: the main function of existence
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