2017-07-01T00:02:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T00:04:42Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T00:05:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T00:09:08Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-01T00:09:30Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T00:13:03Z zooey quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-01T00:20:57Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-01T00:27:38Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-01T00:33:09Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T00:33:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T00:33:34Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T00:47:56Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T00:48:24Z alex_e quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T00:48:49Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T00:49:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T00:50:07Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T00:50:12Z jfjhh quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-01T00:50:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-01T00:50:40Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-01T00:55:22Z alex_e joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:02:30Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:05:22Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T01:07:31Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T01:08:47Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T01:18:21Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:18:57Z alex_e quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T01:21:21Z alex_e joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:26:22Z alex_e quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T01:26:37Z alex_e joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:28:41Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:29:30Z coetry: (love (getf (freenode-channel #lisp) :members) 2017-07-01T01:29:37Z coetry: <3 2017-07-01T01:37:37Z alex_e quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T01:37:57Z coetry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T01:39:47Z alex_e joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:50:03Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-07-01T01:50:55Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:06:47Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:09:16Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:09:26Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:11:08Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T02:18:54Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:22:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:27:33Z ludston: ) 2017-07-01T02:30:35Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:35:45Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T02:36:50Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T02:41:44Z nsnc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-01T02:42:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone else remember the set of logos for CL implementations someone created? 2017-07-01T02:49:56Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-01T02:54:32Z coetry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T03:01:54Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-01T03:20:34Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-01T03:32:16Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T03:37:00Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T03:38:54Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-01T03:40:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T03:40:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-01T03:41:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T03:46:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T03:48:37Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T03:56:12Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-01T03:58:31Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-01T04:06:39Z imizu joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:07:20Z hyero`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T04:08:02Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:08:25Z imizu quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-01T04:11:10Z imizu joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:11:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T04:12:28Z coetry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T04:16:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:17:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: one thing you can do is just right all your queries as stored procedures inside a sql file you version control and then just do a simple SELECT in your lisp code 2017-07-01T04:17:33Z imizu left #lisp 2017-07-01T04:17:37Z poorbean quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T04:17:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: You just have to remember to drop at the top of the file or the like 2017-07-01T04:18:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've had fairly good success with this strategy 2017-07-01T04:24:22Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:24:37Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:25:32Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:26:08Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T04:26:16Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-01T04:29:57Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:33:02Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:37:40Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T04:39:33Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T04:39:50Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:40:12Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-01T04:41:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T04:43:28Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-01T04:46:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:14:02Z Ravana joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:18:44Z sam0sung joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:19:47Z sam0sung: bros, is there anyone can give me some advice to learn lisp? 2017-07-01T05:20:12Z sam0sung: i'm new to lisp 2017-07-01T05:21:15Z sam0sung: is there anyone here now? 2017-07-01T05:21:40Z aeth: pick a small, realizable project and continuously rewrite it as you learn new things. 2017-07-01T05:22:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 275 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:22:31Z aeth: And be open to feedback on this channel to write more idiomatically. 2017-07-01T05:23:12Z sam0sung: thanks, 2017-07-01T05:23:14Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T05:23:19Z aeth: There are several books online that you can read. If you already have programming experience, the general recommendation is Practical Common Lisp. 2017-07-01T05:23:38Z aeth: If you do not, the other book's name is iirc A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computing but I'm not 100% sure on that 2017-07-01T05:23:40Z sam0sung: yes, i'm reading this book recently 2017-07-01T05:23:53Z sam0sung: and i've learn c for a while 2017-07-01T05:25:02Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-01T05:26:17Z sam0sung: but i am confuse about the closure? 2017-07-01T05:27:42Z aeth: Scheme references may help you with concepts that Lisp and Scheme have in common like that, such as The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs or The Little Schemer. 2017-07-01T05:29:27Z vtomole: The Little Schemer talks about closures? 2017-07-01T05:29:50Z aeth: I do not recall, but I would not be surprised at all because closures are very basic, and are generally in Scheme stuff because minimalist Scheme stuff uses them more. 2017-07-01T05:30:05Z sam0sung: thanks, my laptop is out of power, i'd to go 2017-07-01T05:30:07Z sam0sung left #lisp 2017-07-01T05:30:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: The Little Schemer is mostly about recursion (at least the parts I got through) 2017-07-01T05:30:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it ends with the implementation of an evaluator for scheme 2017-07-01T05:30:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or "a lisp", not necessarily scheme) 2017-07-01T05:32:04Z aeth: skimming through it, it doesn't look like it gets far enough 2017-07-01T05:32:10Z aeth: It might be in one of its two sequels, which I don't have 2017-07-01T05:33:12Z aeth: it's apparently too basic. 2017-07-01T05:33:27Z beach: vtomole: Are you planning to send me a pull request for the ASDF system definition? 2017-07-01T05:33:35Z aeth: I do remember seeing car and cons defined as Scheme closures several times, though. 2017-07-01T05:33:47Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:33:52Z aeth: So now I wonder what other books it was in. 2017-07-01T05:34:57Z vtomole: beach: I don't think i've made enough "significant changes 2017-07-01T05:35:56Z aeth: s/car and cons/car, cdr, and cons/ 2017-07-01T05:36:15Z vtomole: aeth: I shamefully still don't understand closures even after reading a lot of writing about it. 2017-07-01T05:36:19Z beach: vtomole: OK, up to you. You can either do small pull requests so that I can review each one easily, or you can make sure that what you submit has already been discussed here. 2017-07-01T05:37:14Z vtomole: beach: First one seems more efficient. I'll send a request right now. 2017-07-01T05:37:26Z beach: OK, thanks! 2017-07-01T05:38:20Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:38:47Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-01T05:40:09Z beach: Merged, thanks! 2017-07-01T05:40:53Z beach: vtomole: What is it that you don't understand about closures? 2017-07-01T05:42:03Z vtomole: I don't even understand the definition. Google always gives me non-relevant pages like "closures in javascript" or "python closures" 2017-07-01T05:42:14Z beach: I see. 2017-07-01T05:42:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:42:42Z beach: A closure is usually defined as a function that has some variables captured in its environment. 2017-07-01T05:42:55Z beach: A function is code + environment. 2017-07-01T05:43:10Z beach: But for global functions, the environment is just the global environment. 2017-07-01T05:43:23Z vtomole: So functions with local variables? What does captured mean? 2017-07-01T05:43:51Z beach: Basically that some non-global variables are part of the environment of the function. 2017-07-01T05:44:16Z beach: For example, (let ((x 10)) (defun ff (y) (+ x y))) 2017-07-01T05:44:34Z beach: Here, X is part of the non-global environment of FF. 2017-07-01T05:45:12Z vtomole: Each function creates it's own environment at run-time? 2017-07-01T05:46:24Z beach: Yes, but that environment is an extension of its captured environment. In my example, the environment consisting of the global environment augmented with X is created and captured at compile time. Then at run-time, when FF is called, that environment is augmented with Y. 2017-07-01T05:46:44Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:47:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:47:45Z vtomole: I see 2017-07-01T05:47:49Z beach: ... So when (+ X Y) is evaluated, the current environment contains three "layers", the innermost layer has Y in it. The next layer has X, and the last layer is the global environment. 2017-07-01T05:48:06Z vtomole: ah 2017-07-01T05:51:54Z Ravana__ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:52:14Z nightfly joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:53:31Z Ravana quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:55:49Z ebzzry quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-01T05:56:46Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:56:54Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:57:19Z ebzzry quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-01T05:57:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T05:58:50Z Ravana__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T05:59:47Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:04:50Z vtomole: beach: What is conditions.lisp supposed to do? 2017-07-01T06:05:12Z beach: vtomole: Define condition types to be signaled by the main code. 2017-07-01T06:05:29Z beach: You can see that in the model file that I indicated. 2017-07-01T06:05:49Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T06:05:56Z easye joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:09:52Z vtomole: What are the conditions "must-be" for packages? 2017-07-01T06:10:02Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:10:33Z beach: I usually determine that when I see the need to call ERROR. 2017-07-01T06:11:38Z beach: So for example, there is a call: (error "symbol ~s not accessible in package ~s"...) 2017-07-01T06:12:04Z beach: That seems to suggest a condition named SYMBOL-MUST-BE-ACCESSIBLE or something like that. 2017-07-01T06:12:29Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T06:13:23Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:13:50Z beach: The conditions named MUST-BE-... usually happen as a result of a type error. An argument of the wrong type was give. For example (package-name 234). In such a situation, you might want to signal a condition called MUST-BE-PACKAGE-DESIGNATOR or something like that. 2017-07-01T06:15:13Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T06:18:59Z fkac quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-01T06:19:57Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:22:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:28:31Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-01T06:29:40Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-01T06:34:37Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:35:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T06:39:08Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T06:41:45Z beach: vtomole: In other words, you don't sit down and try to figure out what condition types to create ahead of time. You wait until you write some code that detects an error situation, and then you make up a condition type for that situation. 2017-07-01T06:43:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T06:47:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T06:48:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T06:59:07Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:05:45Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:08:10Z loke___ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:10:38Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-01T07:11:10Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T07:11:31Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:18:02Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:18:31Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:19:14Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:21:17Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:22:21Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:22:47Z sfa quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-01T07:23:04Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:32:03Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:34:38Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:34:49Z d4ryus2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-01T07:35:22Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:39:57Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:40:06Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:44:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:49:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:53:40Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:54:12Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:55:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T07:57:22Z loke___ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T07:58:29Z otwieracz: Do you know any Common Lisp analog t o https://docs.python.org/3/library/struct.html ? 2017-07-01T07:58:42Z otwieracz: If there's one, I'd rather not implement one by myself. 2017-07-01T08:03:18Z beach: I think there is a library named binary-types or something like that. 2017-07-01T08:03:49Z beach: https://github.com/frodef/binary-types 2017-07-01T08:04:09Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T08:04:14Z otwieracz: I've also found „packet  2017-07-01T08:04:26Z otwieracz: which might be useful 2017-07-01T08:05:30Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T08:06:06Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:08:00Z phoe: beach: otwieracz: binary-types has a compilation bug on SBCL, just so you know. (AFAIK it was binary-types, or some other similar library) 2017-07-01T08:08:41Z beach: OK, thanks. 2017-07-01T08:08:51Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I remember the set of logos for CL implementations, I think I created it actually :D 2017-07-01T08:10:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T08:17:02Z phoe: lower quality, 15 MB PDF: https://mega.nz/#!uZwnCJbB!1A0apLSXMndRfaw38mMoMcF88JUH_mQBfWOll5LYw90 2017-07-01T08:17:09Z phoe: higher quality, 84 MB PDF: https://mega.nz/#!TIR1DBhJ!QzRqJj7Km9HYBVH0Vm0Cs0N_zMSIQiBzTMUh5j05338 2017-07-01T08:17:47Z phoe: I hope you can extract the PDF for individual transparent PNG images. If not, poke me - I'll dig around for the source images. 2017-07-01T08:18:13Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T08:18:36Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:19:39Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:21:48Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:23:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T08:24:55Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:27:27Z otwieracz: What's the *efficient* way of changing dimension and changing the value in simple-array? Eg, I've got #(1 2 3) and I want to add 0 at the beginning, so it will be #(0 1 2 3). 2017-07-01T08:27:52Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T08:31:04Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:33:08Z phoe: I don't think standard CL has mechanisms for that. 2017-07-01T08:33:15Z phoe: I was writing my own code to achieve this, back in the day. 2017-07-01T08:36:11Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:38:36Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:38:36Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-01T08:38:36Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:38:37Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:39:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:40:35Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T08:44:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:47:48Z beach: otwieracz: Does it have to be an array? 2017-07-01T08:48:36Z beach: otwieracz: I have a library that implements a very efficient (in practice) editable sequence. 2017-07-01T08:49:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T08:49:11Z beach: otwieracz: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Flexichain 2017-07-01T08:49:39Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:50:20Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:51:01Z jack_rabbit bookmarks flexichain 2017-07-01T08:53:56Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T08:53:58Z phoe: beach: I love how your libraries come with documentation in .tex format. 2017-07-01T08:54:08Z beach: Thanks! 2017-07-01T08:55:11Z beach: otwieracz: In particular, it avoids that some common degenerate cases ruin performance, such as when the sequence is used as a queue. An ordinary gap-buffer implementation would move every element very frequently then, but Flexichain uses a circular buffer, so this case is very efficient. 2017-07-01T08:58:05Z otwieracz: Yeah, I'll see. Thanks. 2017-07-01T08:58:33Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T08:59:58Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-01T09:03:45Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:05:57Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:06:26Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:06:40Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:12:33Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T09:19:33Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:20:22Z beach: So the DEFTYPE lambda list has the same syntax as the macro lambda list. They differ only in how an absence of an explicit default value for an optional or a &key parameter is interpreted. For the macro lambda list the value NIL is then used, and for the deftype lambda list, it is the symbol *. 2017-07-01T09:20:26Z beach: So, it seems silly to duplicate all the grammar rules just for this difference. Maybe I should just have a slot in the class that describes the parameter indicating that no form was given. 2017-07-01T09:20:50Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:23:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:25:33Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:26:12Z yangby joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:26:52Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:27:17Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:30:20Z Reinisch: Anyone familiar with this? Getting a "Symbol "NUMBER-EQUAL" not found in the LISP-UNIT package." 2017-07-01T09:30:44Z Reinisch: I'm on the latest quicklisp, but no dice. 2017-07-01T09:31:23Z Reinisch: several google results lead to versions of "With quicklisp version 24-01-2017 it is loades" 2017-07-01T09:31:44Z Reinisch: do I need to figure out how to revert my quicklisp? 2017-07-01T09:32:16Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:37:16Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:37:28Z Reinisch: for context, I'm trying to load gsll via (ql:quickload "gsll") 2017-07-01T09:38:30Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:38:31Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-01T09:44:16Z yangby quit (Quit: Go out for a walk and buy a drink.) 2017-07-01T09:45:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:47:55Z Bourne joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:49:24Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:49:50Z cpape joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:49:53Z Bourne left #lisp 2017-07-01T09:49:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T09:50:41Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:50:48Z epony joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:52:47Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:53:11Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:56:24Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:57:22Z samlamamma joined #lisp 2017-07-01T09:57:36Z samlamamma left #lisp 2017-07-01T09:58:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:00:06Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:01:05Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T10:01:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T10:01:20Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T10:01:32Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T10:03:33Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:14:59Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-01T10:20:21Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:23:44Z varuaa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T10:25:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T10:26:04Z patrontechnosoft joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:27:41Z patrontechnosoft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T10:30:32Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T10:31:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:33:17Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T10:33:17Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T10:33:22Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T10:34:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T10:38:35Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:39:01Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:39:01Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:39:40Z easye joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:39:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:47:53Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-01T10:54:34Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T10:58:40Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:00:08Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:05:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:05:51Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T11:06:11Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:15:42Z fkae joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:17:36Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T11:17:41Z fkae is now known as fkac 2017-07-01T11:19:24Z ParrotSec_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:21:08Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:25:31Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T11:25:52Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:27:14Z phoe: Reinisch: this looks like a regression 2017-07-01T11:27:29Z phoe: try to find the maintainer of the lisp-unit package on GitHub and ask them about it 2017-07-01T11:27:44Z phoe: and try to find the last git commit for which it works 2017-07-01T11:28:03Z phoe: once you do, clone the repository to ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and checkout that commit 2017-07-01T11:28:22Z phoe: so QL loads the local-projects version and not the one it downloads automatically from Quicklisp. 2017-07-01T11:29:07Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:30:49Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:31:31Z samarthwiz joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:41:50Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T11:44:04Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T11:46:52Z ParrotSec_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T11:47:11Z giraffe quit (Changing host) 2017-07-01T11:47:12Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:47:12Z giraffe quit (Changing host) 2017-07-01T11:47:12Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:51:31Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:51:44Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:54:08Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T11:55:58Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-01T11:56:20Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T11:56:47Z ParrotSec_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:59:14Z otwieracz: How can I perform binary AND/OR on two numbers? 2017-07-01T11:59:14Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T11:59:29Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-01T11:59:33Z _death: logand/logior 2017-07-01T11:59:58Z otwieracz: than you! 2017-07-01T12:00:20Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:01:10Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:05:21Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:09:44Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:15:35Z mishoo__ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2017-07-01T12:17:16Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T12:19:46Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:19:48Z payphone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:21:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:23:07Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:23:56Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T12:24:12Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:24:53Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:25:37Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:26:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:28:49Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:28:56Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:30:24Z ParrotSec_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T12:40:01Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:48:05Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:49:01Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:54:32Z mfiano_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T12:54:58Z mfiano_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:55:53Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-01T12:56:53Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:56:55Z happy_gnu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T12:57:04Z happy_gnu joined #lisp 2017-07-01T12:57:47Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:11:50Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T13:13:29Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:16:50Z loke` joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:16:53Z stara joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:17:13Z stara: How to call to function arguments? 2017-07-01T13:17:24Z _death: clhs funcall 2017-07-01T13:17:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 2017-07-01T13:17:55Z narendra` joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:19:33Z phoe: stara: also 2017-07-01T13:19:35Z phoe: clhs apply 2017-07-01T13:19:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2017-07-01T13:19:44Z phoe: depends on how you have your arguments 2017-07-01T13:20:06Z samarthwiz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T13:20:48Z samarthwiz joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:22:40Z samarthwiz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T13:22:47Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:23:55Z loke`: And if all you have is funcall, you can always funcall #'apply... 2017-07-01T13:24:54Z _death: you can also (setf (fdefinition 'magic) fn) (magic) ;) 2017-07-01T13:27:16Z loke`: Hmm... is there any magic way you can think of that allows you to emulate APPLY without, you know... APPLY. 2017-07-01T13:27:19Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T13:28:04Z _death: (case (length args) (0 (funcall fn)) (1 (funcall fn (first args))) (2 ...)) 2017-07-01T13:28:16Z loke`: oh wow... 2017-07-01T13:28:33Z loke`: And a macro looping over ARAGUMENTS-MAX (or whatever it's called) to generate that? 2017-07-01T13:29:00Z narendra` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T13:30:02Z _death: also (eval `(funcall ,fn ,@args)) 2017-07-01T13:31:02Z ParrotSec_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:32:10Z stara: How in emacs on the left editor, on the right result? 2017-07-01T13:32:23Z _death: C-x 3 2017-07-01T13:34:28Z loke`: _death: right. EVAL 2017-07-01T13:34:32Z loke`: Didn't think of that one 2017-07-01T13:35:12Z _death: when there's magic involved, you can bet there's an eval solution :) 2017-07-01T13:36:29Z edgar-rft: don't tell that to people like David Copperfield 2017-07-01T13:38:34Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/gRNXnk/emacsik.png 2017-07-01T13:38:44Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:39:17Z stara: On the left I have CL-USER> , I want a editor . ;/ 2017-07-01T13:39:44Z _death: In the beginning God evaled the forms and the env. The env was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep.. 2017-07-01T13:40:09Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T13:40:29Z _death: stara: so you switch to another buffer 2017-07-01T13:40:42Z _death: stara: I suggest you do a `C-h t' and read through 2017-07-01T13:41:35Z _death: stara: you can also use the slime scratch buffer.. write a form and evaluate using C-j, the result will appear in the same buffer 2017-07-01T13:42:04Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:43:05Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T13:46:04Z stara: _death I want on the left editor, who compiling. 2017-07-01T13:46:08Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:47:24Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/mAHq7k/emacsuu.png 2017-07-01T13:47:58Z _death: on the left you have the emacs scratch buffer, not the slime scratch buffer 2017-07-01T13:48:25Z loke`: _death: Is there such a thing as the SLIME scratch buffer? 2017-07-01T13:48:29Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:48:53Z _death: yes.. I use the slime-selector, so I just do `C-c s s' to switch to it 2017-07-01T13:49:18Z loke`: ps -ef 2017-07-01T13:49:23Z loke`: oops 2017-07-01T13:50:42Z stara: In how mode I have to RUN, to work on the left editor, on the right compiled result? 2017-07-01T13:50:54Z nydel: i recently asked whether to compile slime in ~ or to use packages to use slime on a pubnix with emacs25 & sbcl-latest but no slime. answer given was 'use quicklisp' -- i hadn't done slime-helper in a while, it is remarkable. thanks kindly to whoever advised, i can't recall who it was. 2017-07-01T13:51:29Z loke`: nydel: Could have been anyone here. I think most people on this channel would have given that suggestion. 2017-07-01T13:52:06Z ParrotSec_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T13:53:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:53:08Z nydel: loke`: it's been a long while since i had to ready slime as a pubnix end-user.. at least 5 emacs ago. it was a whole todo & resulted in one of those home directories you never wanna move anything in etc which i just hate that feeling 2017-07-01T13:53:50Z nydel: that is, slime-helper & quicklisp are amazing! woo. 2017-07-01T13:54:26Z loke`: nydel: What is pubnix? 2017-07-01T13:54:57Z nydel: loke`: public access unix system. what i meant was a system where i didn't have root or sudo grouping 2017-07-01T13:55:36Z loke`: nydel: Right... But I'm wondering under what circumstance you would _ever_ need to make system-wide changes just to get SLIME working? 2017-07-01T13:55:42Z _death: I also use slime-helper, but since I have my own slime fork I had to modify it a bit.. guess the path could be pulled out into a variable 2017-07-01T13:57:30Z yeticry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-01T13:57:57Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T13:58:06Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/eTDDSk/emacsio.png 2017-07-01T13:58:26Z nydel: loke`: i believe i also needed to build an up-to-date sbcl in my own ~ ... there was a crippled version installed for users where `which sbcl` would give you it, so it involved quite a bit of symbolic linking and hacky nonsense to get the results i wanted 2017-07-01T13:58:34Z _death: stara: M-x lisp-mode 2017-07-01T13:58:41Z stara: I have on the left program to compling, how it's compiled? 2017-07-01T13:58:42Z _death: stara: in the editor buffer 2017-07-01T13:59:04Z _death: stara: then you can use C-M-x to evaluate forms 2017-07-01T14:00:35Z stara: Ctrl+left_alt+x ? 2017-07-01T14:02:09Z loke`: C-c C-k to compile and load the entire file. 2017-07-01T14:03:26Z stara: Is undefined. 2017-07-01T14:03:39Z nydel: why do i think those things are C-c C-c & C-c C-l respectively 2017-07-01T14:04:17Z nydel: i.e. stara if you just do (print 'hello) in the left buffer, then - while in that buffer - do C-c C-l - it should be interpreted in the right-side REPL instance 2017-07-01T14:05:07Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:06:32Z stara: I want it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymSq4wHrqyU 2017-07-01T14:07:04Z stara: I write text and i clicked slime -> compile and have it compiled. 2017-07-01T14:07:22Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T14:08:01Z stara: But, on the left side IT NOT HAVE SLIME. 2017-07-01T14:08:09Z stara: But, on the right side it Yes have slime. 2017-07-01T14:08:26Z stara: But, on the left side it not have slime and not i compiled file. ;( 2017-07-01T14:12:11Z stara: Why, then I press enter, it immediately compiling to file. 2017-07-01T14:12:25Z stara: I want compiled to after clicked slime -> compilation -> compile defun. 2017-07-01T14:13:24Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-01T14:14:02Z ebrasca: stara: what do you mean? 2017-07-01T14:16:02Z stara: The code has to compile when I want, not automatically. 2017-07-01T14:16:58Z ebrasca: stara: I don't understand what do you mean with it. 2017-07-01T14:17:04Z beach: stara: Nothing compiles automatically. 2017-07-01T14:17:21Z beach: stara: It is compiled only as a result of some action on your part. 2017-07-01T14:18:57Z fkac quit (Quit: Back later.) 2017-07-01T14:20:04Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T14:20:42Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T14:20:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:21:13Z stara quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-01T14:21:21Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:23:33Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:24:14Z nydel: if you write it into the interpreter, it will evaluate.. but nothing on the "left side" i.e. outside the REPL buffer is going to compile without being told to do so 2017-07-01T14:25:07Z stara joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:25:12Z stara: I want to compile code but no slime button. 2017-07-01T14:25:50Z loke`: stara: There is no "button". You have to use the keyboard. 2017-07-01T14:26:34Z White_Flame: there's usually a SLIME menu, though, which might be what's meant 2017-07-01T14:26:56Z loke`: I see. I rarely use that one :-) 2017-07-01T14:27:02Z nydel: it can be good to look through the SLIME menu if learning, to see what keystrokes are for what 2017-07-01T14:27:52Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T14:27:55Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:27:56Z zm: nydel: C-h m 2017-07-01T14:28:41Z White_Flame: stara: did you do what _death said and entered M-x lisp-mode in the left buffer? 2017-07-01T14:29:01Z White_Flame: (Meta-x, which is usually Alt-x) 2017-07-01T14:29:29Z stara: I press M-x slime. 2017-07-01T14:29:37Z White_Flame: so, no? 2017-07-01T14:29:42Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:30:12Z nydel: White_Flame: shouldn't it be 'slime-mode' to make a buffer behave with slime completion suggestion etc? or is 'lisp-mode' the same thing 2017-07-01T14:30:40Z White_Flame: I'm not an emacs-head, but SLIME mode gets attached to lisp mode, or somesuch 2017-07-01T14:31:28Z zm: common-lisp-mode 2017-07-01T14:31:29Z nydel: i usually start 'emacs foo.lisp' then M-x 'slime' return, switch to foo.lisp buffer & 'slime-mode' ... then good to go 2017-07-01T14:31:36Z White_Flame: yeah, slime-mode in a lisp buffer toggles slime on & off for that buffer, leaving it in raw lisp mode or not 2017-07-01T14:31:56Z White_Flame: right, because you started up your lisp buffer before there was any slime connection 2017-07-01T14:32:24Z White_Flame: (and probably before the slime elisp stuff hooked in, maybe) 2017-07-01T14:32:38Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:33:09Z White_Flame: any lisp buffer you open up _after_ starting slime will automatically be attached to a slime connection 2017-07-01T14:33:17Z White_Flame: (in my experience) 2017-07-01T14:34:47Z nydel: ah that's interesting. if i open foo.lisp where scratch is, after launching slime, i don't have to 'slime-mode' that buffer, if i understand. 2017-07-01T14:34:56Z nydel: better way to do it i think. thanks 2017-07-01T14:35:01Z White_Flame: certainly better 2017-07-01T14:35:37Z nydel: it's a few keystrokes because of keybindings i made but there's a right way to do things and a messy too-many-keybindings way 2017-07-01T14:35:41Z White_Flame: you can have multiple slime connections, and there's a notion of a 'current' one that newly opened lisp buffers will be attached to, as well. I don't think I've intentionally used that, though 2017-07-01T14:37:20Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T14:40:54Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:46:53Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:48:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T14:50:14Z stara quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-01T14:50:22Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T14:58:52Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T15:00:14Z drl quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2017-07-01T15:01:56Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:03:13Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:08:05Z jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T15:10:10Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T15:13:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:13:52Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:13:53Z Ven is now known as Guest79326 2017-07-01T15:14:14Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:15:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:16:22Z oleo: hello 2017-07-01T15:16:44Z oleo: i have a problem with antik-master-ad6432e3-git 2017-07-01T15:16:57Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:17:06Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:18:43Z oleo: grid/tests/augment.lisp mentions number-equal from lisp-unit package but when i try to run my image which loads these systems i get an exception which throws me into the debugger where it says Symbol "NUMBER-EQUAL" not found in the lisp-unit package 2017-07-01T15:18:54Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T15:19:14Z oleo: i checked lisp-unit, the function is there and exported 2017-07-01T15:19:31Z oleo: so why can grid/tests/augment.lisp not refer to it ? 2017-07-01T15:19:32Z Guest79326 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T15:19:52Z oleo: does the module tests in the antik-base.asd file have to depen on lisp-unit too ? 2017-07-01T15:19:57Z Murii_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:22:17Z oleo: tho in augment.lisp it's referred to as lisp-unit:number-equal, but since augment.lisp does not depend on lisp-unit that package is not accessed and so the symbol from lisp-unit not loaded into the running system ? 2017-07-01T15:22:24Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:22:31Z oleo: wait a bit 2017-07-01T15:23:13Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T15:24:14Z oleo: nope i tried to load lisp-unit again but it does not change anything 2017-07-01T15:24:32Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T15:28:56Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-01T15:31:13Z kapil___ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:31:59Z kapil___ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-01T15:33:53Z Merv__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T15:35:03Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:35:50Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:36:34Z ryan_vw quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-01T15:36:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:44:56Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:50:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:50:41Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:54:19Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T15:55:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T15:57:13Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:58:47Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-01T15:58:51Z serviteur quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-01T15:59:16Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-01T15:59:56Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:00:43Z ryanbw_ is now known as ryanbw 2017-07-01T16:01:01Z coetry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:01:53Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:02:00Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:06:26Z circ-user-2fvK9 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:06:47Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T16:08:25Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:10:51Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:11:36Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:12:38Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:13:10Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:14:23Z phoe: does postmodern have a function version of its QUERY macro? 2017-07-01T16:26:15Z phoe: I'm trying to write up a simple function that, given a filename, reads the contents of that file and returns a function that accepts &rest arguments and, when called, executes the query. 2017-07-01T16:28:08Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:28:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:29:20Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T16:30:14Z phoe: But the way postmodern works makes it impossible for me to do so - the result of the QUERY macro depends on the number of &rest arguments passed to QUERY. 2017-07-01T16:31:16Z phoe: oh wait - maybe I should be using PREPARE instead... 2017-07-01T16:31:40Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:32:37Z phoe: yes, DEFPREPARED is exactly what I want. 2017-07-01T16:37:24Z coetry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:38:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:38:31Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:38:41Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:40:45Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-01T16:47:25Z coetry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:49:47Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:50:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:51:12Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:54:44Z coetry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T16:55:06Z coetry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:55:08Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:55:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:55:57Z phoe: guys 2017-07-01T16:56:02Z phoe: I just realized why ESRAP is called ESRAP 2017-07-01T16:56:40Z Murii_ quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-01T16:57:49Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:00:01Z jdz: It's never too late. 2017-07-01T17:00:31Z chi91 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:00:49Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:01:29Z edgar-rft: espaniol rap? 2017-07-01T17:02:27Z jackc_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:02:46Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T17:03:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:03:27Z dim: phoe: have a look at YeSQL for Clojure, I think it would be good to implement the same specs: https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql 2017-07-01T17:03:31Z mfiano_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:03:45Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T17:04:18Z phoe: dim: haha. 2017-07-01T17:04:23Z phoe: https://github.com/TBRSS/cl-yesql 2017-07-01T17:04:36Z phoe: I attempted to use it - it's still not mature enough for usage though. 2017-07-01T17:04:50Z phoe: so right now I'm writing a poor man's yesql myself. 2017-07-01T17:04:59Z phoe: jdz: sdrawkcab ti daer 2017-07-01T17:05:44Z dim: oh nice I missed its existance 2017-07-01T17:06:08Z dim: why not contributing to cl-yesql? 2017-07-01T17:06:26Z jackc joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:08:02Z dim: this overlord integration sounds gratuitous tho 2017-07-01T17:08:49Z coetry_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:09:00Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:09:24Z phoe: I have no idea why it does not work and I have no knowledge of the Overlord system that ist is based upon. 2017-07-01T17:09:55Z phoe: it is based upon* 2017-07-01T17:10:01Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T17:10:29Z phoe: I might want to take a look at it when I'm feeling a bit better than now - for now I filed a bug report there with all information I can gather. 2017-07-01T17:10:53Z rk[ghost] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:14:43Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:17:00Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:17:51Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T17:18:38Z rk[ghost] joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:19:26Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:22:00Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:22:51Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:25:21Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:27:16Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:28:10Z varuaa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T17:33:36Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-01T17:33:45Z grumble quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T17:35:13Z asmith29 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:37:20Z asmith29 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-01T17:39:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:40:52Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:42:19Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:44:26Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-01T17:48:26Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:50:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:51:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:51:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:52:46Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:53:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:54:26Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T17:56:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T17:59:24Z oleo: there's definetly some bitrotting in play via git 2017-07-01T17:59:46Z oleo: otherwise i don't know why some libs which load ok at first don't after a while..... 2017-07-01T18:00:16Z oleo: some detachment stuff or so 2017-07-01T18:00:17Z TruePika joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:00:39Z TruePika: #'RATIONALIZE is _very_ implementation-dependent, right? 2017-07-01T18:01:11Z TruePika: I'm asking in comparison to #'RATIONAL, which the hyperspec says is (but it is as dependent as the floating point arch used is) 2017-07-01T18:01:34Z chi91 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:02:09Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T18:02:12Z TruePika: what I'm asking is if a cutoff is specified _in the language_ for #'RATIONALIZE's precision 2017-07-01T18:03:32Z TruePika: or, what ensures that (rationalize (float 333333333/1000000000 1.0)) ==> 1/3 2017-07-01T18:04:12Z Bike: it says "to the accuracy of the underlying floating point representation", so i think giving back 1/3 would actually not be conformant for base two floats 2017-07-01T18:04:49Z circ-user-2fvK9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:04:56Z TruePika: that was an actual execution, this is for #'RATIONALIZE not #'RATIONAL 2017-07-01T18:05:15Z TruePika: #'RATIONAL is the exact-from-eg-IEEE754 2017-07-01T18:06:12Z Bike: huh. guess i don't know then 2017-07-01T18:06:26Z TruePika: 1/3 is an expected output from #'RATIONALIZE, but I'm wondering what specifies that it would be 1/3 instead of w/e #'RATIONAL would return 2017-07-01T18:06:37Z TruePika: if it is part of the language, or part of the impl 2017-07-01T18:07:19Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:07:43Z TruePika: maybe I'll check the SBCL and CCL sources later today 2017-07-01T18:07:59Z TruePika: or more likely SBCL and CLisp, since I have both of those already 2017-07-01T18:10:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:10:49Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:10:53Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:11:09Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:12:11Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:14:12Z drot quit (Quit: Quit.) 2017-07-01T18:15:05Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:15:42Z drot joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:17:33Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T18:20:14Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:20:37Z Ven is now known as Guest28990 2017-07-01T18:21:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:21:16Z Guest28990 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-01T18:21:21Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:23:45Z notbarton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T18:29:22Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:30:25Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:31:58Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:32:21Z jcowan joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:34:56Z coetry joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:36:25Z coetry quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-01T18:36:49Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:37:52Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:44:27Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T18:45:09Z sfa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-01T18:52:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T18:52:25Z jcowan: I'd like to know about the practical use of restarts. Are they something people make much use of? 2017-07-01T18:56:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T18:56:51Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-01T18:57:49Z malice: jcowan: Well, pretty much the same you'd use Exceptions in other languages 2017-07-01T18:57:53Z malice: but more flexible 2017-07-01T18:58:09Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T18:58:34Z _death: I use them all the time during development.. programmatic use is more rare 2017-07-01T18:59:06Z malice: Well, this year's ECL lightning talk featured restarts 2017-07-01T18:59:25Z malice: in more original way 2017-07-01T18:59:42Z jcowan: malice: Slides available? 2017-07-01T19:00:05Z malice: jcowan: not sure, let me check 2017-07-01T19:00:38Z jcowan: Thanks 2017-07-01T19:01:00Z jcowan: I'm interested in selling restarts to a community that doesn't use them but could 2017-07-01T19:01:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:01:21Z jcowan: But while I understand them in principle, I've never used them myself 2017-07-01T19:03:33Z _death: even simple uses, say with-simple-restart/cerror/ccase etc. at choice points are very convenient 2017-07-01T19:04:33Z malice: jcowan: sorry, the lightning talks were not recorded 2017-07-01T19:04:38Z malice: jcowan: what would you like to know? 2017-07-01T19:04:39Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:04:55Z _death: you can come up with higher-level operators that expose them and are more problem oriented.. like the ones in https://github.com/death/dbus/blob/master/utils.lisp 2017-07-01T19:04:59Z malice: and what commuinity is it? 2017-07-01T19:05:27Z jcowan: see above: I want to convince people that restarts (and by extension resumable exceptions) are a Good Thing. Resumable exceptions without restarts seem fairly useless to me. 2017-07-01T19:05:36Z jcowan: In particular, having more than one restart available 2017-07-01T19:05:48Z malice: Sure. 2017-07-01T19:05:59Z malice: Are they users of dynamic languages? 2017-07-01T19:06:02Z malice: Like Python, Ruby, Lua? 2017-07-01T19:06:03Z jcowan: Yes 2017-07-01T19:06:11Z _death: or "robust" variants of functions like robust-mapcar in https://github.com/death/gnusdumps/blob/master/driver/main.lisp 2017-07-01T19:06:14Z malice: Great. Then tell them the difference. 2017-07-01T19:06:20Z malice: Have you ever coded anything in Python in REPL? 2017-07-01T19:06:23Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T19:06:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-01T19:06:46Z malice: e.g. crawler, or some machine learning algorithm, or anything, really 2017-07-01T19:07:04Z malice: you forgot/didn't know that page can 404. Or you forgot to include small detail in parsing script. 2017-07-01T19:07:15Z malice: After some time of running, your program crashes an all you see is stack trace 2017-07-01T19:07:18Z malice: that would be Python 2017-07-01T19:07:30Z malice: in Common Lisp, you often have a sensible restarts set from the beginning, like "retry" 2017-07-01T19:07:33Z chi91 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:07:38Z malice: or "use-value" in case you haven't used the value 2017-07-01T19:07:45Z malice: that makes the whole REPL experience much more pleasant 2017-07-01T19:08:05Z malice: Because REPL is all about being able to do things on the run - and restarts are another thing you can do on the run; you can handle errors on the run. 2017-07-01T19:08:14Z jcowan: I'm actually addressing Lisp folks who have resumable exceptions but only ever use terminating ones 2017-07-01T19:08:15Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:09:00Z malice: It all depends on the usage. 2017-07-01T19:09:28Z malice: I've been making a small crawler lately. I've used restarts in there. 2017-07-01T19:10:00Z malice: It worked like this: I knew where things can go wrong(lost connection, site sent malformed html, saving file had problems for some reason) 2017-07-01T19:10:37Z malice: I wrapped these in restart-case and provided restarts like try-again to try to get website again, or save-again, something like that 2017-07-01T19:10:46Z malice: Some of restarts just logged the failure and carried on 2017-07-01T19:11:03Z malice: I never used them myself, because the infrastructure was doing that for me(otherwise I'd have to sit by PC) 2017-07-01T19:11:11Z malice: Is that the usage you have in mind? 2017-07-01T19:11:20Z jcowan: It's a good example, thanks 2017-07-01T19:11:27Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:11:42Z jcowan: cerror etc. are very simple, but they only have one restart, whereas it's the case for multiple restarts that I want to make. 2017-07-01T19:11:43Z malice: If you don't know what to do, you can terminate your program, of course 2017-07-01T19:11:49Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T19:12:01Z malice: Sure. 2017-07-01T19:12:10Z malice: You can always provide some of the built-in restarts 2017-07-01T19:13:15Z _death: jcowan: I don't know what you mean by "only have one restart".. they add a restart to the "stack" of restarts.. it's true that their restart cluster consists of just one 2017-07-01T19:13:56Z jcowan: That's what I meant 2017-07-01T19:14:56Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:15:32Z _death: https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/scan.lisp here continue-scanning for the delimited-message-scanner introduces two of them.. and you can also imagine useful programmatic use 2017-07-01T19:18:10Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T19:19:40Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T19:21:59Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T19:22:04Z _death: KMP wrote some good papers about the condition system, I assume you're familiar with them 2017-07-01T19:22:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:23:19Z jcowan: I am, yes. 2017-07-01T19:27:19Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T19:27:35Z Ichimusai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T19:29:28Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T19:32:35Z Ichimusai joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:49:35Z zv joined #lisp 2017-07-01T19:51:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: did you make this in a vector format? or PNGs 2017-07-01T19:52:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been wanting to use them as desktop background photos for subtle lisp evangelism at work :) 2017-07-01T20:06:09Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-01T20:10:09Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T20:10:40Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-01T20:15:01Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T20:16:20Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: PNGs 2017-07-01T20:16:28Z phoe: 4000x4000 Photoshop files actually 2017-07-01T20:16:35Z phoe: I did not make them in vectors. 2017-07-01T20:20:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T20:23:39Z nydel quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-01T20:24:49Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T20:26:31Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T20:28:45Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-01T20:35:44Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-01T20:36:25Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T20:40:05Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-01T20:40:30Z phoe: Is it compliant to unintern from KEYWORD package? 2017-07-01T20:42:29Z Xach: phoe: at first glance, I think so. 2017-07-01T20:42:37Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-01T20:43:01Z Xach: phoe: what is the goal of such uninterning? 2017-07-01T20:43:24Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T20:45:31Z otwieracz: How sould I read from usocket TCP socket? 2017-07-01T20:45:53Z otwieracz: I am unable to find anything working on (usocket:socket-stream my-connection). 2017-07-01T20:45:59Z otwieracz: Ah, important note - I need to read binary. 2017-07-01T20:46:15Z otwieracz: I am receiving The value # is not of the expected type (AND CCL::BINARY-STREAM CCL:INPUT-STREAM). for the whole time. 2017-07-01T20:46:47Z phoe: Xach: I decided that one of my packages should be called :FOO 2017-07-01T20:46:55Z phoe: but then I thought again and decided to name it to :BAR 2017-07-01T20:47:09Z phoe: so I created a new package, moved all the stuff, and did (DELETE-PACKAGE :FOO) 2017-07-01T20:47:16Z phoe: and now I'm left with a lone hanging keyword 2017-07-01T20:47:26Z phoe: so I thought, "can I get rid of :FOO altogether?" 2017-07-01T20:47:43Z phoe: so I thought, "is it defined behaviour to unintern keywords though?" 2017-07-01T20:47:47Z phoe: so I asked. 2017-07-01T20:48:14Z Xach: phoe: do you tend to keep careful track of keywords? 2017-07-01T20:48:21Z phoe: Xach: no, not at all 2017-07-01T20:48:32Z phoe: I most likely won't notice one more or one less symbol anywhere 2017-07-01T20:48:40Z phoe: so it's not about a lone symbol 2017-07-01T20:48:43Z phoe: but more about the general question 2017-07-01T20:48:55Z phoe: is it defined behaviour to unintern keywords 2017-07-01T20:49:07Z Xach: Yes, I think it is. 2017-07-01T20:49:25Z Xach: I remember an argument someone made rejecting some software because it created three packages and "real" software should use only one 2017-07-01T20:49:37Z Xach: "such package pollution is bad" 2017-07-01T20:50:14Z phoe: d'oh 2017-07-01T20:50:23Z phoe: look at these people who use one-package-per-file 2017-07-01T20:50:37Z phoe: blasted defilers of the holy Lisp's way of working 2017-07-01T20:51:22Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-01T20:57:46Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T21:01:49Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-01T21:02:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:07:59Z k-stz joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:08:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T21:11:27Z jcowan: https://lisper.in/restarts is the sort of thing I was looking for: a practical example employing user-defined restarts. 2017-07-01T21:12:14Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:15:27Z phoe: jcowan: I didn't know that link 2017-07-01T21:15:29Z phoe: thanks for posting it 2017-07-01T21:17:11Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:20:20Z jcowan: phoe: Do you object to having to put a whole package in a single file, or to having to have a file contain no more than one package, or both? 2017-07-01T21:20:41Z jcowan: I can see objection #1, but objection #2 seems sound as a guideline. 2017-07-01T21:20:59Z jcowan: (not an absolute law) 2017-07-01T21:22:03Z phoe: jcowan: I was being sarcastic first of all (and that does not transmit well through the Internet) 2017-07-01T21:22:23Z phoe: and I was refering to a style of coding where each single .lisp file has a respective package 2017-07-01T21:22:36Z phoe: this style is somewhat supported with modern ASDF and some people like it 2017-07-01T21:23:15Z jcowan: I would cheerfully have multiple files per package, but rarely would want to define more than one package in a file. 2017-07-01T21:23:26Z jcowan: (dynamic use of packages excepted) 2017-07-01T21:24:18Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-01T21:24:38Z phoe: multiple files OK inside a package, multiple packages NOK inside a file 2017-07-01T21:24:53Z jcowan: We agree then 2017-07-01T21:27:45Z jsjolen joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:28:19Z jsjolen: Hey I have a pretty specific Q regarding MOP which I haven't been able to answer myself, can I shoot away? 2017-07-01T21:28:48Z phoe: jsjolen: shoot 2017-07-01T21:29:21Z phoe: jcowan: for agreement brings strength and disagreement brings insight 2017-07-01T21:29:22Z phoe: (and this creepy guy from the corner brings Perl hotfixes into production environments) 2017-07-01T21:31:40Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:32:32Z jsjolen: I've got a list of symbols (such as T, INTEGER or FOO-OBJECT) representing the specializers of some method. In the MOP you can use METHOD-SPECIALIZERS to get a list of CLOS objects which represent the types the method specialize on. Can I easily create these objects that are returned from M-S from the symbols that represent classes? 2017-07-01T21:32:54Z jsjolen: They are *not* the same as what FIND-CLASS gives you 2017-07-01T21:34:01Z phoe: mop method-specializers 2017-07-01T21:34:01Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-specializers.html 2017-07-01T21:36:00Z jsjolen: (by the way, I think what you could do is create a first-class generic function, make a method for the specializer list and then retrieve the objects as so. It's just a very round about way of doing it) 2017-07-01T21:36:00Z phoe: jsjolen: give me an example of them not being the same 2017-07-01T21:37:18Z phoe: they're either classes or EQL specializers, correct? 2017-07-01T21:37:18Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializers.html 2017-07-01T21:38:44Z jsjolen: Huh. I wrote code to look at the results this morning and it gave me different results. Sorry, I must've been morning sleepy :/ 2017-07-01T21:38:51Z phoe: jsjolen: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-methods.html 2017-07-01T21:38:53Z jsjolen: (because yes, they do give me identical results now) 2017-07-01T21:39:06Z phoe: it seems that specializers are connected to their methods and methods are connected to their specializers 2017-07-01T21:39:22Z phoe: so you must fetch the specializer metaobjects from the methods it seems 2017-07-01T21:39:49Z phoe: because if you create new objects, you can perhaps link them to the methods, but then the methods won't be linked to them 2017-07-01T21:40:13Z phoe: tricky question: why do you want to create them? 2017-07-01T21:41:06Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T21:41:59Z phoe: because (method-specializers (defmethod foo ((bar (eql 2))) 4)) gives you an implementation-defined specializer metaobject 2017-07-01T21:42:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:42:28Z Bike: it's not implementation defined, it's an eql-specializer. 2017-07-01T21:42:42Z jsjolen: What I *actually* want to do is be given a list of specializer-symbols (like '(integer t sequence)) and then see if a certain generic-function has a method that is applicable to those specializers 2017-07-01T21:43:09Z Bike: (find-method gf qualifiers (mapcar #'find-class symbols) nil), iirc 2017-07-01T21:43:10Z phoe: Bike: implementation-dependent, dammit 2017-07-01T21:43:12Z jsjolen: (compute-applicable-methods require instances of the classes so that's a no go) 2017-07-01T21:43:14Z phoe: I can't into words anymore 2017-07-01T21:43:31Z Bike: phoe: if it follows mop it will be of mop's eql-specializer class 2017-07-01T21:43:50Z jsjolen: Bike:Yeah but that won't find a method which only specializes on T 2017-07-01T21:43:51Z Bike: jsjolen: actually find-method is more specific, this sounds more like compute-applicable-methods-using-classes 2017-07-01T21:43:58Z jsjolen: Aha! 2017-07-01T21:44:12Z Bike: won't work if there are eql specializers involved, though 2017-07-01T21:44:15Z jsjolen: That sounds exactly like the function I want 2017-07-01T21:44:20Z jsjolen: That's okay 2017-07-01T21:44:30Z phoe: Bike: I see 2017-07-01T21:44:39Z Bike: mop eql-specializer-object 2017-07-01T21:44:39Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/eql-specializer-object.html 2017-07-01T21:44:42Z jsjolen: Alright, thanks! 2017-07-01T21:44:44Z Bike: well defined methods and such 2017-07-01T21:44:49Z jsjolen is afk for a bit 2017-07-01T21:45:05Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T21:45:22Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:46:51Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:47:34Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T21:48:00Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:48:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:51:34Z chi91 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T21:52:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T21:56:00Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T21:56:19Z varuaa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T22:01:47Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T22:02:10Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:02:23Z varuaa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T22:02:40Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:04:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:07:05Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-01T22:11:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-01T22:11:49Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:21:18Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T22:21:54Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:23:07Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T22:24:06Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:26:05Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-01T22:30:31Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T22:30:37Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T22:32:30Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:33:27Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:37:07Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T22:40:19Z jsjolen left #lisp 2017-07-01T22:44:54Z madmalik joined #lisp 2017-07-01T22:46:27Z phoe: sweet goodness 2017-07-01T22:46:39Z phoe: I just realized how easy it is for me to develop from anywhere in the world 2017-07-01T22:47:08Z nydel: that sounds like a good thing 2017-07-01T22:47:09Z phoe: all it takes is creating a SSH tunnel for swank and using SSHFS to mount a directory that resides in the same location on both remote and local machine 2017-07-01T22:47:31Z phoe: like /home/phoe/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/ 2017-07-01T22:47:42Z phoe: so I don't need to play around with emacs's tramp 2017-07-01T22:47:53Z phoe: and C-x C-k works like a charm 2017-07-01T22:48:49Z nydel: cool 2017-07-01T22:49:16Z phoe: I don't even need to git pull anything because I have the whole project mounted locally over SSH 2017-07-01T22:49:36Z phoe: what a time to be alive 2017-07-01T22:51:33Z nydel: loving the excitement, you can do whatever you can imagine phoe ! 2017-07-01T22:53:09Z jcowan left #lisp 2017-07-01T22:58:16Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:06:50Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:07:13Z Ven is now known as Guest98263 2017-07-01T23:07:50Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T23:09:59Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:10:34Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T23:12:05Z Guest98263 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-01T23:13:25Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:13:41Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T23:15:09Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:19:27Z megalography quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-01T23:21:19Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T23:33:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:33:16Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:35:14Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:37:34Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T23:38:31Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:39:53Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:41:08Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:48:21Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:48:38Z circ-user-2fvK9 joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:50:15Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T23:56:24Z circ-user-2fvK9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T23:56:50Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-01T23:58:25Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-01T23:59:12Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T00:07:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T00:12:29Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-02T00:12:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T00:14:28Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-02T00:16:01Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-02T00:17:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I don't really trust network filesystems over WAN connections 2017-07-02T00:19:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, if there was a filesystem built on top of a mosh-like protocol, maybe I'd reconsider 2017-07-02T00:38:12Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T00:40:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T00:45:10Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T00:46:49Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T00:50:59Z varuaa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T00:51:24Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:00:39Z hapticFeels joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:01:06Z hapticFeels quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T01:03:30Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T01:03:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:05:19Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T01:13:05Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T01:15:13Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:15:34Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T01:16:01Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:21:20Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T01:23:41Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:24:38Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:27:09Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T01:28:31Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T01:29:04Z varuaa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T01:29:29Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:34:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T01:36:07Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T01:40:52Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-02T01:49:09Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:01:42Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:09:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:12:48Z ult joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:14:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T02:20:49Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T02:23:22Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:26:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T02:28:32Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T02:40:44Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-02T02:40:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:43:06Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:44:40Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T02:48:11Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-02T02:53:50Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-02T02:56:07Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-02T02:57:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T02:59:41Z jack_rabbit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T03:10:25Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T03:10:34Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:11:12Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:12:25Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:14:13Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T03:14:43Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-02T03:17:05Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-02T03:18:33Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:19:11Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:23:45Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T03:25:03Z jeremiah__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T03:25:57Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:30:09Z Fare: chào anh 2017-07-02T03:31:14Z beach: chào em! 2017-07-02T03:41:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:42:27Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:46:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T03:48:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:51:02Z diegs_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9-dev) 2017-07-02T03:51:29Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T03:54:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T03:55:45Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T04:00:41Z wildbartty joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:02:42Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:03:34Z wildbartty quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T04:07:02Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:10:32Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:27:10Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:29:06Z davidkrauser joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:31:07Z broccolistem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T04:34:39Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-02T04:36:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:39:08Z grublet quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T04:40:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T04:42:30Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:53:19Z BrownTurds joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:53:58Z BrownTurds changed the topic of #lisp to: #lisp POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers! 2017-07-02T04:54:18Z BrownTurds: fe[nl]ix, __main__, __paul0, _death, ``Erik, a7f4, aaronjensen, abbe, add^_, adlaistevenson, adolf_stalin, adulteratedjedi, AeroNotix, aeth, akkad, alex_e, alms_clozure, amerlyq, angavrilov, angerTr0n, angular_mike_, antismap`, AntiSpamMeta, antoszka, arbv, arescorpio, argoneus: 2017-07-02T04:54:18Z BrownTurds quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-02T04:54:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:54:55Z BrownPoop joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:55:11Z BrownPoop: !ops i edited the topic lol 2017-07-02T04:57:05Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T04:58:30Z PuercoPop changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1 2017-07-02T04:58:44Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T04:58:46Z beach: PuercoPop: Thanks! 2017-07-02T04:59:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T04:59:27Z PuercoPop: np 2017-07-02T04:59:47Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers! 2017-07-02T04:59:56Z BrownPoop: PuercoPop: lol ur pathetic u nigger 2017-07-02T04:59:56Z BrownPoop quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-02T05:00:44Z beach: PuercoPop: Might have to be done again. :( 2017-07-02T05:00:55Z PuercoPop changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1 2017-07-02T05:01:01Z pillton: p_l? 2017-07-02T05:01:23Z BrownPoop joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:01:28Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers! 2017-07-02T05:01:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:01:54Z BrownPoop: xrash: hello 2017-07-02T05:02:09Z xrash: BrownPoop: hi 2017-07-02T05:02:15Z BrownPoop: welcome to the official channel of the Jewish World Order 2017-07-02T05:02:16Z PuercoPop changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1 2017-07-02T05:02:23Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers! 2017-07-02T05:02:23Z BrownPoop quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-02T05:02:27Z xrash: thanks 2017-07-02T05:02:42Z eck: PuercoPop: please set the channel mode +t 2017-07-02T05:02:48Z PuercoPop: Btw beach, how is SICL coming along? 2017-07-02T05:03:13Z PuercoPop: eck: I'm not a op, The topic is can be modified by anyone! 2017-07-02T05:03:20Z BrownPoop joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:03:26Z eck sighs 2017-07-02T05:03:35Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers! 2017-07-02T05:03:44Z pillton: I think felnix and p_l have ops. 2017-07-02T05:03:54Z BrownPoop: pillton: you cannot ban me 2017-07-02T05:03:57Z BrownPoop: nobody can 2017-07-02T05:04:00Z beach: PuercoPop: Slow, but steady progress. I am working on a library for manipulating Common Lisp source code as concrete syntax trees. It will allow for better source tracking, both in the compiler and for Second Climacs. 2017-07-02T05:04:10Z BrownPoop: Sigyn k-lined me several times 2017-07-02T05:04:23Z BrownPoop: There is always another VPN exit 2017-07-02T05:04:33Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T05:05:21Z PuercoPop: beach: is this related to the modified reader for incremental parsing you were working on? 2017-07-02T05:05:33Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-02T05:05:39Z BrownPoop: PuercoPop: no 2017-07-02T05:05:55Z BrownPoop: the only thing here that is "modified" is your mother's fake tits 2017-07-02T05:06:28Z beach: PuercoPop: The editor needs the compiler in order to determine the role of symbols in expressions in the buffer. 2017-07-02T05:06:51Z BrownPoop: beach: your mom is a buffer 2017-07-02T05:07:11Z singer22 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:07:40Z dtscode joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:07:51Z metax joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:08:05Z BrownPoop: hi all 2017-07-02T05:08:10Z dtscode left #lisp 2017-07-02T05:08:12Z BrownPoop: the topic is set by me 2017-07-02T05:08:16Z BrownPoop: i am elite hacker 2017-07-02T05:08:35Z Starsam80 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:09:03Z Starsam80 left #lisp 2017-07-02T05:09:03Z krok joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:09:16Z metax: aahahahaha 2017-07-02T05:09:26Z BrownPoop: metax: lol 2017-07-02T05:09:30Z BrownPoop: we own all niggers 2017-07-02T05:09:33Z BrownPoop: hail Hitler 2017-07-02T05:09:40Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T05:09:49Z BrownPoop: enslave the niggers and teach them to fart on Jew 2017-07-02T05:09:49Z BrownPoop quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-02T05:10:11Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:10:30Z BrownPoop joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:10:52Z metax: well it's not a secret freenode is owned by white people 2017-07-02T05:11:00Z BrownPoop: lol 2017-07-02T05:11:07Z BrownPoop: and i own all white niggars 2017-07-02T05:11:13Z metax: lmao 2017-07-02T05:11:33Z BrownPoop: i'm going to use terms like n1gger or niggar or other mis-spellings because Sigyn is getting annoying 2017-07-02T05:12:02Z BrownPoop: those kills also kline at the same time so i have to evade ban too 2017-07-02T05:12:04Z metax: of course, too much blacklist 2017-07-02T05:12:27Z BrownPoop: kill because it cascades to all servers faster than kline, sure, but Sigyn still klines 2017-07-02T05:14:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T05:16:37Z metax: systemd is made to enslave more black people 2017-07-02T05:16:45Z BrownPoop: lol 2017-07-02T05:16:52Z BrownPoop: plz elaborate 2017-07-02T05:17:59Z metax: i mean white-black and black-white people, similar to free work as they do 2017-07-02T05:18:23Z metax: anyway it's all about nationalism yeah 2017-07-02T05:21:01Z eck left #lisp 2017-07-02T05:23:06Z diablo666 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:23:21Z V-o-y joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:24:43Z ElizaBathory joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:25:31Z killer joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z killer: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Odin- Tordek minion LyndsySimon pankracy loke` ecraven koisoke jsnell xristos Blkt_ dTal_ isoraqathedh drdo SlashLife splittist velvetcore_ vibs29 Lord_Nightmare TMA redcedar misv tuturto zv mrcom pok angular_mike_ loke ArthurAGleckler[ davsebamse AeroNotix joga chu luis shaftoe vert2 billstclair AntiSpamMeta nikivi jdz Patzy lxpz __paul0 aaronjensen mulk brucem adlaistevenson m 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z killer: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Hoolootwo ult Reinisch adlaistevenson funnel rann giraffe gingerale loke` DeadTrickster SlashLife zv drmeister Firedancer_ P01yM0rp4 tapioco nowhere_man watersoul ccl-logbot Odin- vert2 asedeno pacon_ fouric1 add^_ mathrick ksool_ jdz alex_e samebchase gz_ tobel djinni` poorbean akkad Sovereign_Bleak kjak_ newcup AeroNotix joast rjeli justinmcp_ raydeejay Patzy mrcom gabot MrWoo 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Tintle angavrilov jackdaniel cyberlard drcode RichardPaulBck[m Fade ggherdov tilpner argoneus Oladon shenghi m0j0 alex_e krok vsync koisoke butterthebuddha xrash mood azrazalea Reinisch tokenrove happy_gnu sword libreman jurov narendraj9 CrazyEddy norfumpit catern orivej kilimanjaro chinchilla moei defaultxr ozzloy vert2 mfiano daemoz eMBee misv groovy2shoes ``Erik ikopico felideo 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z ElizaBathory: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: yeticry nicdev sebboh Firedancer_ bailon a7f4 daemoz p_l gremly gko filwisher easye fluter happy_gnu Aritheanie rk[ghost] jself metax chinchilla ksool_ drdo tonton aeth knobo abbe froggey m0j0 malm shka mklk_ BrownPoop ozzloy eMBee ``Erik emacsoma` phadthai eagleflo argoneus drcode omilu Merv arescorpio minion whartung joast sukaeto clog tuturto isoraqathedh ArthurAGleckler[ 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z diablo666: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: gingerale troydm adolf_stalin Odin- mklk_ drdo Fare daemoz eMBee SlashLife jedb hvxgr Suzuran Ichimusai zymurgy moei tkd pillton baroncharlus hjudt XachX zv kjak_ krok catern brendos watersoul omilu dxtr xrash P01yM0rp4 jackc nikivi gremly heurist tmc Merv_ xristos arrsim ozzloy ggherdov arrdem loke cod larme bend3r_ banjiewen kushal kjeldahl z0d 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z diablo666: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: zv DGASAU zaquest swflint krasnal d4gg4d_ jasom xristos ecraven lancetw ericmath1son easye Fare hjudt felideon rann ksool_ lxpz libreman billstclair kjak_ flip214 zbigniew_ davidkrauser lonjil zkat gremly tokenrove cross snits_ jurov ikopico krok xrash akkad ``Erik asedeno butterthebuddha kushal singer22 minion neuri8 Tordek Bock theBlackDragon askatasuna gko dlowe Ichimusai pankrac 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: zv shenghi jerme_ P01yM0rp4 joeygibson z0d askatasuna poorbean xristos mson eli emacsoma` kjak_ happy_gnu sveit vert2 dxtr hjudt pok DGASAU dddddd micro_ otwieracz singer22 oleo jackdaniel eschatologist spacepluk Cthulhux |3b| copec tfb tilpner schoppenhauer azrazalea mrcom giraffe beaky __paul0 mood voidlily Mandus ``Erik gko BrownPoop ludston da mfiano varuaa omilu 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: kjak_ jerme_ happy_gnu fouric1 loke sigjuice heurist myrkraverk Tristam eschulte_ dxtr zkat zm gendl watersoul otwieracz Khisanth mrcom pok Sovereign_Bleak tessier_ mson arbv diegs_ hjudt ult sveit j0ni rvirding gargaml ineiros_ jedb thorondor[m] pankracy Bock rjeli joast knobo ericmath1son Nikotiini diablo666 eschatologist Colleen pareidolia filwisher ecraven akkad cl Aritheanie 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z V-o-y quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-02T05:27:00Z killer quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-02T05:27:01Z ElizaBathory: SATURDAY NIGHT PARTY BITCHES!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: X-Scale SiCC pareidolia malcom2073 mrcom lieven daemoz jackc mfiano ec\ ineiros_ stu cross damke_ singer22 jean377_ Lowl3v3l djinni` thinkpad clamchowder asedeno j0ni mjl P01yM0rp4 DGASAU kini ArthurAGleckler[ rann trig-ger minion dlowe d4ryus1 knobo nightfly gendl raydeejay theBlackDragon ft sbryant ck_ banjiewen shka himmAllRight emacsomancer Subfusc itruslove thijso nhandler ikopico malm 2017-07-02T05:27:01Z ElizaBathory quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-02T05:27:01Z diablo666 quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-02T05:27:12Z diegs_: what the fuck 2017-07-02T05:27:33Z Lord_Nightmare: they got G-lined 2017-07-02T05:27:37Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T05:27:45Z Suzuran: People still spam IRC? How 1990s. 2017-07-02T05:28:09Z Lord_Nightmare: yep 2017-07-02T05:28:26Z metax: spamming on IRC is still a serious business 2017-07-02T05:28:28Z BrownPoop: omg cool 2017-07-02T05:28:32Z BrownPoop: we got a botnet 2017-07-02T05:28:48Z metax: yep, that was HUUUGE 2017-07-02T05:31:00Z mson: Then... there's no party? 2017-07-02T05:31:25Z BrownPoop: lol 2017-07-02T05:31:36Z BrownPoop: mson: wild porn party at electrosluts.com 2017-07-02T05:31:43Z BrownPoop: lesbian fetish porn 2017-07-02T05:32:40Z BrownPoop changed the topic of #lisp to: Lesbian BDSM electro-zapping fetish porn can be found at electrosluts.com | POOPY NEGROES INCORPORATED is the ruler of all niggers! 2017-07-02T05:33:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:35:13Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-02T05:36:51Z tilpner left #lisp 2017-07-02T05:37:23Z mson: A lot is happening. 2017-07-02T05:37:29Z adlaistevenson: Let's party like it is 1995 and JAVA IS COMING 2017-07-02T05:37:40Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T05:39:45Z BrownPoop quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T05:44:09Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:45:47Z wildbartty joined #lisp 2017-07-02T05:46:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T05:59:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T06:01:58Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T06:03:19Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-02T06:03:45Z zm quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T06:07:01Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T06:13:09Z mson changed the topic of #lisp to: I don't remember what the topic was before, but some troll changed it to racial epithets, and I figure this is better. 2017-07-02T06:14:14Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-02T06:18:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: /topic #lisp: "Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language 2017-07-02T06:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: 2017-07-02T06:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 2017-07-02T06:18:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1" 2017-07-02T06:18:32Z fiddlerwoaroof changed the topic of #lisp to: "Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1" 2017-07-02T06:18:43Z fiddlerwoaroof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.17, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1 2017-07-02T06:20:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, SBCL is actually 1.3.19, I believe 2017-07-02T06:21:20Z fiddlerwoaroof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs: | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.19, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.1 2017-07-02T06:24:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T06:24:43Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-02T06:38:45Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-02T06:41:13Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T06:44:52Z daemoz: Well then 2017-07-02T06:47:17Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-02T06:48:19Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T06:50:15Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T06:52:29Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T06:56:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:01:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T07:03:56Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:04:08Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:08:01Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:12:32Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:13:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:14:41Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T07:15:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:15:51Z Ven is now known as Guest71914 2017-07-02T07:19:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:20:12Z Guest71914 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T07:20:52Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:21:38Z BW^-: can you remind me again why the traditional wisdom is that refcounted memory management systems not can handle cyclical references without need for special manual quirks (weak refs at the cycle points)? 2017-07-02T07:23:03Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:25:50Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T07:27:58Z beach: In a cycle, every reference count is strictly greater than 0. 2017-07-02T07:28:18Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T07:28:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:29:04Z beach: ... so if you have an outside pointer to a cycle, the object pointed to has a reference count of at least 2. Dropping the pointer decreases it to something that is at least 1, so it can't be reclaimed. 2017-07-02T07:34:48Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T07:35:06Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:36:32Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T07:38:02Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-02T07:46:00Z Ellenor joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:49:06Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:51:50Z BW^-: disconnected, so re refcounts, back. 2017-07-02T07:55:29Z beach: In a cycle, every reference count is strictly greater than 0. 2017-07-02T07:55:31Z beach: ... so if you have an outside pointer to a cycle, the object pointed to has a reference count of at least 2. Dropping the pointer decreases it to something that is at least 1, so it can't be reclaimed. 2017-07-02T07:56:27Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T07:57:16Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T07:58:06Z BW^-: beach: can you make your point why? 2017-07-02T07:58:07Z BW^-: say 2017-07-02T07:58:25Z BW^-: right, so if root A refs B, which refs C, which refs B, and you collect B. in this case, A would cause B to get +1, B would case C to get +1, and C would *not* cause B to go +1 again because its refcounting stack would remember that it already +1:ed B already. when you collect A, you'd do -1 on B automatically no, hence giving it 0, so it's time to collect?? 2017-07-02T07:59:02Z phoe: BW^-: A -> B <->C <- is this correct? 2017-07-02T07:59:09Z phoe: A -> B <-> C 2017-07-02T07:59:14Z BW^-: phoe: correct. 2017-07-02T07:59:22Z beach: BW^-: Hold on, you don't "collect B" or anything. 2017-07-02T07:59:26Z phoe: so A has a refcount of 0, B has a refcount of 2, C has a refcount of 1 2017-07-02T07:59:36Z phoe: in refcounting systems you don't have roots though 2017-07-02T07:59:36Z BW^-: phoe: i guess A being a root, has refcount 1. 2017-07-02T07:59:43Z BW^-: phoe: then, refcounts don't cascade, do they? 2017-07-02T07:59:44Z beach: *sigh* 2017-07-02T07:59:45Z phoe: (AFAIK) 2017-07-02T07:59:48Z BW^-: phoe: so it'll be A has 1, B has 1, and C has 1? 2017-07-02T07:59:50Z beach: You guys work it out. 2017-07-02T07:59:54Z phoe: A has 0 refs, so it's collected 2017-07-02T08:00:08Z beach: Do you want help or not? 2017-07-02T08:00:21Z BW^-: phoe: right, at some point you decrease A so it's collected, but in that same moment you also propagate that -1 to B right, so B will get 0 and is collected too? 2017-07-02T08:00:26Z BW^-: beach: I want help! =) 2017-07-02T08:00:26Z phoe: hey 2017-07-02T08:00:28Z phoe: B has 2 references 2017-07-02T08:00:30Z phoe: from A and from C 2017-07-02T08:00:36Z phoe: so now B has 1 reference and C has 1 reference 2017-07-02T08:00:49Z BW^-: phoe: no no, because when C got +1:ed, then it saw on its stack that B was +1:ed by the same run already, and does *not* +1 B again, meaning B only get 1. 2017-07-02T08:00:51Z beach: Are you ready for me to explain? 2017-07-02T08:00:56Z BW^-: beach: yes! 2017-07-02T08:01:07Z beach is pausing to make sure... 2017-07-02T08:01:26Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:01:37Z beach: BW^-: The way things work is that you have a pointer somewhere... 2017-07-02T08:01:43Z beach: it is pointing to some object. 2017-07-02T08:01:47Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T08:01:56Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T08:02:02Z beach: That object has a reference counter of at least one, namely form the pointer that we are now considering. 2017-07-02T08:02:12Z beach: Suppose we have a pointer to some object A. 2017-07-02T08:02:18Z beach: A contains a pointer to B. 2017-07-02T08:02:24Z beach: B contains a pointer to A. 2017-07-02T08:02:27Z beach: OK so far? 2017-07-02T08:02:28Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:02:30Z BW^-: beach: sure! 2017-07-02T08:02:33Z beach: So we have a cycle. 2017-07-02T08:02:36Z BW^-: yup 2017-07-02T08:02:52Z beach: The reference counter of A is 2 (it is pointed to by our pointer and by B). 2017-07-02T08:03:03Z BW^-: beach: why? 2017-07-02T08:03:13Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:03:17Z beach: Suppose we have a pointer to some object A. 2017-07-02T08:03:25Z BW^-: i agree that a 2 would likely make it impossible to collect it, but i think mitigating that it would become 2 in the first place should be trivial 2017-07-02T08:03:59Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T08:04:12Z beach: If it is a reference counter, it counts references, and since there are two references, the reference count is 2. 2017-07-02T08:04:29Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:05:33Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:05:43Z holycow is now known as Guest24553 2017-07-02T08:05:49Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T08:06:15Z beach: OK, let's try with one more indirection... 2017-07-02T08:06:19Z BW^-: beach: but in that case it could as well go on infinitely, recurse into counting B again and A again and B again etc.? 2017-07-02T08:06:34Z beach: It only counts immediate references. 2017-07-02T08:06:41Z Guest24553 is now known as holycow2 2017-07-02T08:06:58Z beach: You have 3 objects, A, B, and C. 2017-07-02T08:07:02Z BW^-: beach: so I guess any refcounting "ref-increase" algorithm must have a stack that traces all objects it already added to as to not add to them again, and in this case A was already added to and hence should be ignored on the second initiative for a +1 2017-07-02T08:07:02Z BW^-: yeah 2017-07-02T08:07:21Z beach: A refers to B, B refers to C, and C refers to B. 2017-07-02T08:07:51Z beach: No, it only works with the immediate object being pointed to. 2017-07-02T08:07:57Z beach: Let me continue my example. 2017-07-02T08:08:02Z BW^-: ok 2017-07-02T08:08:16Z beach: You have a pointer in some register or local variable to A. And that is the only pointer to A. 2017-07-02T08:08:50Z beach: The reference counter are A=1 (from the local variable) B=2 (from A and C), and C=1 (from B). 2017-07-02T08:09:02Z beach: If you don't agree with this, you must first read up on how reference counting works. 2017-07-02T08:09:38Z beach: Let's say the local variable is X. 2017-07-02T08:10:24Z BW^-: sec. 2017-07-02T08:11:29Z BW^-: beach: what i'd presume happens here is that, any refcounting algo that would give B 2, would recurse into +1:ing to C again, which would lead to +1:ing to B again, causing B and C go to infinity and then crash due to infinite loop, stack overflow etc. 2017-07-02T08:11:51Z beach: I am telling you, it only counts IMMEDIATE references. 2017-07-02T08:12:10Z beach: So your are presuming the wrong thing. 2017-07-02T08:13:48Z BW^-: aha 2017-07-02T08:13:51Z BW^-: aha 2017-07-02T08:14:38Z beach: We now do (setf X (bla X)), where bla is the function that takes (a pointer to) A and returns a pointer to B. 2017-07-02T08:14:40Z BW^-: beach: yes i see how counting immediate references makes sense. and then, indeed B would have two immediate references - one from A and one from C. 2017-07-02T08:16:10Z beach: The way it works now, is that the compiler has generated code to do this: (let ((temp (bla X))) (increase-refcount temp) (decrease-refcount-and-maybe reclaim X) (setf X temp)) 2017-07-02T08:16:30Z beach: So temp now contains and additional reference counter to B. 2017-07-02T08:16:34Z wildbartty_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:16:41Z beach: B now has a reference counter of 3. 2017-07-02T08:17:03Z beach: Now, we decrease the reference counter of what X points to, which is A. 2017-07-02T08:17:11Z beach: It drops to 0, so a is reclaimed. 2017-07-02T08:17:37Z beach: When A is reclaimed, everything it points to recursively gets their reference counters decremented. 2017-07-02T08:17:47Z beach: A points to B, so B goes from 3 to 2. 2017-07-02T08:18:05Z beach: Now, we have X pointing to B, B pointing to C, and C pointing to B. 2017-07-02T08:18:16Z beach: B has a reference counter of 2 and C of 1. 2017-07-02T08:18:23Z beach: [same situation as before] 2017-07-02T08:18:47Z beach: Now we do (setf X 234) and 234 is an immediate value. 2017-07-02T08:19:31Z wildbartty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T08:19:33Z beach: So we first decrement the reference counter of what X points to (which is B) before assigning to X. 2017-07-02T08:19:50Z beach: So B drops to 1 (it is still pointed to by C) so it is not reclaimed. 2017-07-02T08:20:11Z beach: Then X becomes 234, and we now have an inaccessible cycle of B and C. 2017-07-02T08:20:31Z beach: This is how it works, and this is the reason why reference counting can not handle cycles. 2017-07-02T08:20:35Z beach: Clear? 2017-07-02T08:22:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T08:24:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:26:23Z wildbartty_ quit (Quit: Going to bed) 2017-07-02T08:27:54Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:29:58Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T08:33:38Z Lord_Nightmare: fe[nl]ix: can you set mode +t please? 2017-07-02T08:33:45Z Lord_Nightmare: on the channel 2017-07-02T08:34:07Z azzamsa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T08:35:05Z beach: BW^-: Did you faint? 2017-07-02T08:36:05Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: is there a reason for that? 2017-07-02T08:36:14Z phoe: jackdaniel: there was 2017-07-02T08:36:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel 2017-07-02T08:36:44Z jackdaniel has set mode +t 2017-07-02T08:36:49Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://pastebin.com/FFGsMV4w 2017-07-02T08:36:51Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel 2017-07-02T08:37:00Z jackdaniel: thanks 2017-07-02T08:37:24Z jackdaniel: should be fixed now 2017-07-02T08:45:23Z BW^-: beach: sec 2017-07-02T08:46:25Z BW^-: beach: ok i guess i understand, refcounting is simply quirky. 2017-07-02T08:47:06Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-02T08:47:13Z BW^-: beach,*: what are the ways you know of that you can do the object marking part of GC, on a very large persistent object database, 2017-07-02T08:50:24Z beach: Is this still reference counting, or GC in general? 2017-07-02T08:51:48Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T08:52:38Z beach: There is only one way of marking all accessible objects, and that is to start with the roots (registers of the machine) and recursively mark until you no longer hit any unmarked object. 2017-07-02T08:52:39Z beach: You can make it faster in most cases by dividing the data set into "generations" and collect younger generations more often. You then stop marking when you have a reference to an object in an older generation. 2017-07-02T08:52:48Z BW^-: in such a way that the RAM footprint (for the marking) is small (for instance by caching the marking state/bitmap) and hence we don't need to spill-over data to the persistent media causing lots of writes, which would wear out an SSD fast 2017-07-02T08:52:54Z BW^-: beach: GC in general 2017-07-02T08:53:30Z beach: Sure, you can keep the mark bits elsewhere, but you still have to visit every object. 2017-07-02T08:54:30Z beach: But yeah, if you keep the mark bits in RAM, you don't need to write it to SSD. 2017-07-02T08:55:44Z beach: You would then compute the offset into the bit-vector of mark bits by shifting the address of the object being marked. 2017-07-02T09:04:16Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T09:06:05Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-02T09:14:19Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T09:27:58Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-02T09:38:41Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T09:44:52Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T09:50:44Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-02T09:51:23Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T09:51:55Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T09:52:28Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-02T09:56:58Z procl0 quit (Quit: bye) 2017-07-02T09:57:16Z notbarton quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T09:57:32Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:07:01Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:07:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:08:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:09:16Z iyvan joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:09:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:10:51Z iyvan left #lisp 2017-07-02T10:10:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T10:12:20Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T10:23:36Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T10:28:25Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:40:18Z serviteur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T10:50:55Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:52:12Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:53:44Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-02T10:58:13Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-02T11:04:18Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:05:58Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:22:18Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:23:13Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T11:24:29Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T11:27:53Z zm joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:34:35Z BW^-: beach: thanks for your feedback. 2017-07-02T11:34:43Z BW^-: beach: will you be around for another couple of hours? 2017-07-02T11:36:28Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:37:05Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-02T11:37:16Z phoe: BW^-: just ask questions; some of us read the channel backlog whenever they're able to 2017-07-02T11:37:29Z phoe: and beach is one of these people :) 2017-07-02T11:37:39Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:39:48Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T11:42:16Z beach: BW^-: I am entertaining lunch guests today. Maybe I'll be back in a few hours. 2017-07-02T11:43:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:43:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:48:52Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T11:49:19Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T11:49:39Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:52:10Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-02T11:54:29Z malice: Hi! During quickloading retrospectiff I get 'No translation for #P"SYS:DEFLATE.FAS"'; do you have any idea what could be the problem? 2017-07-02T11:54:43Z malice: I can quickload it on my laptop just fine, it's my desktop that's complaining 2017-07-02T11:54:55Z malice: And I ran (ql:update-all-dists) before. 2017-07-02T11:59:25Z malice: (actually, the problem I have is related to system "deflate") 2017-07-02T12:01:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:11:50Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:13:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:13:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:14:54Z beach: BW^-: I am here briefly in case you have a quick question. 2017-07-02T12:15:40Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:16:35Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:17:54Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:19:39Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:21:15Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T12:25:37Z _death: oof, annoying that some plexippus xpath test w/ a huge macroexpansion consistently exhausts sbcl's heap 2017-07-02T12:27:16Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:27:23Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:28:47Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:32:43Z metax left #lisp 2017-07-02T12:37:51Z phoe: Is CHANL a good choice for designing a message-centric server? 2017-07-02T12:40:27Z pw_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:41:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:43:51Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T12:44:39Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:46:20Z pw_ left #lisp 2017-07-02T12:48:10Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:52:52Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:56:30Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:56:48Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:57:27Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-02T12:58:17Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:00:19Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T13:02:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:03:56Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-02T13:04:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:04:09Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T13:04:17Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:05:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T13:05:10Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T13:10:28Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T13:15:17Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-02T13:16:01Z Douglas joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:21:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T13:21:28Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T13:21:55Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:22:22Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:22:52Z Douglas left #lisp 2017-07-02T13:24:58Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T13:25:06Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:25:25Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T13:28:00Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:37:37Z notbarton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T13:41:20Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:44:36Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:49:43Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T13:50:52Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:54:09Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:54:38Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T13:54:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:56:08Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:58:09Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T13:58:39Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:01:21Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:02:12Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:04:28Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:04:33Z phinxy quit (Changing host) 2017-07-02T14:04:33Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:09:45Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:16:31Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:19:28Z haom joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:29:52Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:33:57Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:34:11Z sebras joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:34:25Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:36:25Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:36:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:39:25Z lanu left #lisp 2017-07-02T14:40:35Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:41:04Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:45:23Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:47:27Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T14:50:10Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:59:22Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:02:31Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:04:43Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:08:15Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:11:16Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T15:13:24Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T15:13:38Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:16:40Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:24:57Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:31:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:33:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:36:52Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:37:09Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T15:42:49Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:43:31Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:44:23Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T15:46:08Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:46:48Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:50:25Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:52:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:55:49Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:56:48Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:57:39Z zm left #lisp 2017-07-02T15:57:53Z wasamasa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T15:58:31Z wasamasa: ohi, can shinmera be found here? 2017-07-02T16:03:39Z wasamasa: nevermind, found them on another channel 2017-07-02T16:03:42Z wasamasa left #lisp 2017-07-02T16:07:12Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:12:04Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T16:12:34Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:15:57Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T16:21:17Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:27:48Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:34:47Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:38:27Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:42:36Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:42:40Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:44:16Z djinni` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T16:45:28Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T16:46:58Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:47:04Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:47:24Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-02T16:47:59Z djinni` joined #lisp 2017-07-02T16:48:00Z ebrasca: Is good idea to manage GNU/Linux with cl for server? 2017-07-02T16:49:39Z phoe: ebrasca: yes, that's what I use and that's what I've heard that other people use, too. 2017-07-02T16:50:09Z phoe: Install some sort of Linux and, on top of that, put a Lisp runtime. I use debian and SBCL. 2017-07-02T16:50:25Z ebrasca: phoe: can I make scripts with lisp? 2017-07-02T16:51:16Z ebrasca: phoe: I read it is slow for scripts. 2017-07-02T16:52:17Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T16:53:11Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T16:54:56Z phoe: ebrasca: not really. 2017-07-02T16:55:24Z phoe: CLISP is recommended for scripts because it does not have any compilation overhead, and integrates somewhat well with Unixlike systems. 2017-07-02T16:56:03Z Tintle is now known as JaNNiel 2017-07-02T16:56:19Z ebrasca: phoe: I am makeing 1 server for storage and other thinks. 2017-07-02T16:56:32Z JaNNiel is now known as Guest24958 2017-07-02T16:57:05Z Guest24958 is now known as JaNNieI 2017-07-02T16:58:46Z phoe: ebrasca: For storage? What do you mean? How do you want to store things and how do you want to retrieve them? 2017-07-02T17:00:07Z ebrasca: phoe: I like to sell space in my server. 2017-07-02T17:00:40Z ebrasca: phoe: I like to have ssh , vsftp and web. 2017-07-02T17:01:56Z phoe: ebrasca: got it. What will you need Lisp for on that server? 2017-07-02T17:03:53Z ebrasca: phoe: Probably web , some scripting and I don't know what else lisp can do in servers. 2017-07-02T17:05:35Z phoe: ebrasca: it can do whatever other languages can do. :) 2017-07-02T17:06:44Z ebrasca: phoe: is lisp better than bash or zsh? 2017-07-02T17:06:48Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T17:08:16Z phoe: ebrasca: they're very different, not really better or worse. 2017-07-02T17:08:45Z phoe: bash is a Unix shell; Lisp does not really obey Unix philosophy. 2017-07-02T17:10:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T17:19:27Z JaNNieI is now known as TheTintle 2017-07-02T17:21:31Z TheTintle is now known as JaNNieI 2017-07-02T17:22:06Z noobly_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:22:15Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:22:22Z noobly_: How does the racket REPL differ from DrRacket? 2017-07-02T17:22:45Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:23:20Z Bike: i believe there is a #racket in which your questions will be better dealt with 2017-07-02T17:24:13Z edgar-rft: noobly_: We're using Common Lisp here, folks on #scheme or #racket might know better. 2017-07-02T17:24:42Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:25:57Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T17:27:19Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:27:20Z broccolistem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T17:27:42Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T17:34:26Z fkae joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:34:37Z fkae quit (Changing host) 2017-07-02T17:34:38Z fkae joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:34:50Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:36:18Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T17:37:35Z varuaa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T17:37:59Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:42:39Z BW^-: hm 2017-07-02T17:43:57Z broccolistem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T17:44:09Z edgar-rft: BW^-: hm = Hindustan Motors? 2017-07-02T17:46:42Z phoe: edgar-rft: hennes&mauritz, www.hm.com 2017-07-02T17:46:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T17:49:00Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:49:45Z edgar-rft: phoe: I like the funny car better :-) 2017-07-02T17:50:46Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:50:53Z toogley joined #lisp 2017-07-02T17:51:08Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T17:51:09Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T17:53:28Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T17:59:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:03:14Z notbarton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T18:07:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:10:30Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:12:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:14:46Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T18:19:02Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-02T18:22:35Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:23:02Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:24:35Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:27:26Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:29:48Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:30:20Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:30:44Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:37:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:39:37Z fkae is now known as fkac 2017-07-02T18:39:53Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:40:00Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:41:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:42:22Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:42:52Z eck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T18:43:09Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:43:31Z eck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T18:44:28Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:44:54Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:46:46Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:47:01Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:49:44Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:50:18Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:50:44Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:53:48Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T18:54:18Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T18:59:22Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T19:00:26Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:01:15Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T19:08:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:10:17Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:10:25Z haom left #lisp 2017-07-02T19:11:21Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:11:25Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:12:29Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:12:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T19:19:38Z dTal_ is now known as dTal 2017-07-02T19:20:00Z dTal quit (Changing host) 2017-07-02T19:20:00Z dTal joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:23:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T19:24:52Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:25:32Z oystewh joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:30:59Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:34:44Z __paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T19:35:53Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-02T19:40:57Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T19:41:21Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T19:44:01Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T19:46:07Z epipping joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:48:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T19:50:28Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:50:38Z phoe: ...it's really amazing 2017-07-02T19:50:46Z phoe: I can understand the code I wrote half a year ago 2017-07-02T19:53:16Z _death: I think it more depends on the day of the week than on the week of the year :) 2017-07-02T19:53:33Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-02T19:53:37Z phoe: actually 2017-07-02T19:53:50Z phoe: this code got refactored and rewritten at least four times, by me and me only 2017-07-02T19:54:06Z phoe: because four times I couldn't comprehend WTF that code did or who the fuck wrote it that way 2017-07-02T19:55:03Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T19:56:27Z jackdaniel: s/wtf/what/ s/who.*wrote/who wrote/ 2017-07-02T19:58:09Z _death awaits refucktoring of jackdaniel's version 2017-07-02T20:04:43Z _death: anyway, for me it's really inconsistent.. one day I can write code where each function, class, whatever has a docstring, and another day I can write code without any docstrings at all.. the exploration/exploitation ratio is also a factor 2017-07-02T20:04:52Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T20:06:11Z jackdaniel: writing intelligible code is an art :) 2017-07-02T20:09:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:11:38Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:13:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T20:15:26Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:16:02Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T20:17:31Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T20:17:46Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:18:08Z pmetzger quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T20:25:58Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T20:31:49Z sebras quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-02T20:33:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T20:36:37Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:37:00Z edgar-rft wrote (print "hello world") approx. 20 years ago and still can understand it. It's a real miracle. 2017-07-02T20:39:13Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-02T20:42:58Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:44:48Z broccolistem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T20:44:49Z ebrasca: edgar-rft: wow 2017-07-02T20:45:10Z krok left #lisp 2017-07-02T20:46:44Z jackdaniel: do you have regression tests for that? 2017-07-02T20:47:40Z phinxy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T20:48:31Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-02T20:50:46Z noobly_ left #lisp 2017-07-02T20:51:18Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:51:26Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:51:53Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T20:55:30Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T20:55:37Z phoe: do you have continuous integration set up for that? we don't want this to fail if someone breaks it in one of the commits later 2017-07-02T20:59:42Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:03:31Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: regression tests for understanding code? :-) 2017-07-02T21:04:34Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T21:05:08Z edgar-rft: phoe: I've refactored it a bazillion times and it still works 2017-07-02T21:08:29Z jackdaniel: edgar-rft: for your "hello world" program, I suspected you have refactored it various times, and that there were many bugs in the meantime, so I assumed you have written for it regression tests ;_) 2017-07-02T21:08:59Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T21:09:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:13:09Z eck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T21:13:22Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:14:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T21:15:04Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T21:15:46Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:17:39Z JaNNieI is now known as Purplestone 2017-07-02T21:17:43Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:20:23Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T21:23:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:28:14Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T21:28:33Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:31:23Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-02T21:31:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:35:40Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:37:11Z hapticFeels joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:39:44Z Purplestone is now known as JaNNiel 2017-07-02T21:40:13Z JaNNiel is now known as Guest2029 2017-07-02T21:40:47Z Guest2029 left #lisp 2017-07-02T21:50:43Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T21:51:02Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:52:03Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T21:56:17Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T21:59:56Z green_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:00:23Z green_ is now known as atgreen 2017-07-02T22:02:19Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T22:05:49Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T22:06:35Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: Yes, I wrote the (print "hello world") program as an regression test for understanding code. As soon as I don't understand it anymore I'm doomed. 2017-07-02T22:09:52Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:10:13Z ddd12 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:10:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:14:04Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:15:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T22:19:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T22:19:31Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:20:22Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T22:20:23Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-02T22:22:24Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:22:59Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:25:38Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T22:32:01Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T22:33:56Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:36:35Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:36:48Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T22:39:45Z singer22 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T22:42:11Z singer22 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:43:10Z weimu joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:46:25Z tasrtsartsra joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:46:55Z tasrtsartsra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T22:46:57Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T22:47:38Z tasrtsartsra joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:47:39Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:47:40Z broccolistem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T22:48:03Z tasrtsartsra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T22:48:29Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T22:49:44Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:50:02Z weimu left #lisp 2017-07-02T22:50:14Z weimu joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:50:31Z weimu left #lisp 2017-07-02T22:52:19Z tasrtsartsra joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:53:13Z weimu_ joined #lisp 2017-07-02T22:53:55Z weimu_ left #lisp 2017-07-02T22:58:18Z Baggers left #lisp 2017-07-02T23:01:19Z tasrtsartsra quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T23:01:27Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:04:03Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T23:07:22Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:11:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:14:13Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:14:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:14:41Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T23:16:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-02T23:17:04Z AJavaIdiot joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:18:30Z AJavaIdiot quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T23:38:14Z diegs_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9-dev) 2017-07-02T23:39:46Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T23:40:12Z loke joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:47:04Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T23:48:13Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T23:49:26Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-02T23:50:05Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-02T23:52:00Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T23:57:49Z procl0 quit (Quit: zZzZzz) 2017-07-02T23:57:56Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:01:45Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:12:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:13:24Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T00:16:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-03T00:22:01Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:29:14Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T00:31:55Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T00:34:38Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:35:57Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T00:41:10Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:52:17Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T00:54:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:55:35Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T00:56:41Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:57:05Z kushal is now known as Guest31230 2017-07-03T00:59:01Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T00:59:40Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T01:02:11Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:03:23Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:05:34Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T01:07:45Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:10:40Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-03T01:12:30Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:12:50Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T01:12:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:15:18Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T01:16:12Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:17:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T01:20:08Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T01:30:29Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:34:27Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-03T01:34:51Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:41:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T01:53:50Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T01:53:59Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T01:55:09Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-03T01:56:52Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:02:09Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:08:31Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:12:51Z Guest31230 is now known as kushal 2017-07-03T02:12:59Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-07-03T02:12:59Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:13:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:14:36Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:14:41Z varuaa_1 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:15:58Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:16:01Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:18:24Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:18:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:21:41Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:23:32Z hapticFeels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T02:35:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:36:23Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T02:36:54Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T02:37:23Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:37:51Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:40:51Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-03T02:42:08Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:43:13Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:44:15Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T02:44:32Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-03T02:45:39Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:51:20Z varuaa_1 is now known as varuaa 2017-07-03T02:52:49Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-03T02:53:41Z fkae joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:53:53Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:56:13Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T02:56:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T02:57:34Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:02:33Z noark9 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:02:48Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:09:06Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T03:09:28Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T03:09:38Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:10:12Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T03:10:30Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:14:13Z phax joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:14:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:14:43Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T03:17:13Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:17:55Z phax left #lisp 2017-07-03T03:18:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T03:23:08Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T03:27:57Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:30:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:37:16Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T03:39:02Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:44:14Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:44:40Z defaultxr quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T03:44:48Z NeutronStarr joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:45:07Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:45:30Z NeutronStarr left #lisp 2017-07-03T03:46:41Z PuercoPop: Besides binary-types, is there more 'prior-art' of schemes to map a binary layout to and from variables? 2017-07-03T03:49:27Z noark9 quit (Quit: noark9) 2017-07-03T03:53:32Z loke`: PuercoPop: I was asking about exactly that some time ago. Didn't get a good reply. 2017-07-03T03:53:49Z loke`: Please let me know if you hear of something. 2017-07-03T03:57:19Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T03:57:21Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:05:09Z beach doesn't know what "to and from variables" is supposed to mean. 2017-07-03T04:08:03Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-03T04:08:50Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:08:51Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T04:09:53Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:11:45Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T04:15:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:15:25Z PuercoPop: beach: define a layout, read a binary stream and have it map to a variables/class. Something like (destructuring-bind (field-a field-b) (read-octect stream)) 2017-07-03T04:15:35Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:20:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T04:25:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:28:10Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T04:29:04Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:29:04Z fkae quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T04:29:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:31:39Z beach: Maybe it's too early in the morning for me to understand. What does variable[s]/class mean? Where does a variable get involved? 2017-07-03T04:31:51Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T04:31:56Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:32:26Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T04:34:46Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T04:37:50Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-03T04:39:50Z PuercoPop: variables as in field-a field-b in the d-bind example above. Class is meant as an instance of a class which has one slot per field. A 'layout' would be something like this https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xcb/proto/tree/src/xproto.xml#n190 2017-07-03T04:40:09Z beach: Yes, I think I am slowly getting it... 2017-07-03T04:41:02Z beach: You want to split data in an octet stream (presumably containing a sequence of "objects") according to some description ("class") of field width, etc, and turn each field into some integer or bit-vector containing the bits in the field. 2017-07-03T04:41:06Z beach: Is that right? 2017-07-03T04:41:50Z PuercoPop: yes, and vice-versa 2017-07-03T04:41:56Z beach: Sure, yes. 2017-07-03T04:41:57Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-03T04:42:28Z beach: I don't have a solution for you. I just wanted to understand what you need. 2017-07-03T04:44:48Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T04:49:18Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-03T04:56:26Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:00:09Z nonconveniens joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:01:03Z nonconveniens quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T05:01:18Z lanu quit (Quit: reboot) 2017-07-03T05:02:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:02:38Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T05:02:49Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:03:55Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T05:06:11Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:06:41Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T05:11:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T05:15:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:15:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:21:29Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T05:23:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T05:23:29Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:24:32Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:24:50Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-03T05:27:34Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:27:37Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:30:06Z eck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T05:30:42Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-03T05:35:27Z PuercoPop: Well binary-types is a no-go as the size of the request may depend on value of a field transmitted in the same request. clx uses define-accessor but I don't think their approach is particularly readable 2017-07-03T05:45:38Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I think that I've used binary-types for requests of varying sizes when I was playing with the wayland protocol 2017-07-03T05:45:42Z jackdaniel: don't remember for sure though 2017-07-03T05:47:50Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T05:53:54Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T05:54:23Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: binary-string seems to be binary-types type, which doesn't have predetermined size for instance. You need to specialize read-binary on your own binary-type I think. 2017-07-03T06:00:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T06:03:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:08:13Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:08:17Z lieven joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:08:33Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T06:10:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:10:31Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T06:11:37Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:16:21Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2017-07-03T06:16:21Z lieven joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:19:57Z dim: PuercoPop: you can have a read at Postmodern, the PostgreSQL driver, it basically needs to map a binary stream into SQL result sets with a defined protocol layout 2017-07-03T06:20:09Z dim: also qmynd but as the maintainer of it I'm not sure it's a good example 2017-07-03T06:21:34Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:23:06Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:24:34Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T06:25:56Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T06:26:06Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T06:28:48Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T06:36:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:39:20Z DeadTrickster: so cl-plus-ssl just merged hostname verification. probably it's time to update drakma/your code 2017-07-03T06:49:26Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T06:54:54Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T07:00:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T07:02:42Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:03:00Z ogkloo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:05:37Z eck quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T07:06:10Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:06:14Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T07:11:21Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T07:11:47Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:13:25Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T07:15:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:20:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:22:34Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T07:23:13Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:25:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T07:26:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I generally use CHANL for queues-like abstractions, although recently I've been playing with the queues in lparallel 2017-07-03T07:27:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Part of me, though, think that it might be best just to use bindings to a well-tested library like ZeroMQ or the like, despite having a C dependency 2017-07-03T07:27:35Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T07:35:30Z notbarton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T07:39:39Z impaktor joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:46:05Z dim: I'm using lparallel.queues in pgloader too 2017-07-03T07:46:37Z dim: I like using lparallel submit-task and then queues to communicate and distribute the work load, it reminds me of my Erlang days 2017-07-03T07:47:17Z dim: I must admit I've only read docs of other solutions tho, didn't try any 2017-07-03T07:47:36Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:48:02Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:49:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:49:48Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:51:19Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-03T07:52:35Z jackdaniel: I find lparallel very convenient. Of course it doesn't prevent you from shooting your own foot, but doesn't tie your hands either. 2017-07-03T07:52:45Z jackdaniel: If you know what you're doing it is a great library 2017-07-03T07:57:05Z BW^-: i have a question for you: what algorithms are you aware of for detecting all the cyclical references in a persistent heap? 2017-07-03T07:57:08Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-03T07:57:41Z BW^-: so, algorithms for detecting cycles in a directed graph, with as small memory footprint as possible. 2017-07-03T08:06:52Z impaktor: I'm thinking about reading "Land of Lisp". Are all the games textbased, or does it use some graphics library? Is the book considered recommended? (I've read PCL, SICP and own PIAP). Basically, I'm looking for something to "casually" read, like PCL. PIAP is a bit too much for what I want right now. 2017-07-03T08:07:47Z dmh: text 2017-07-03T08:07:47Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:08:59Z dmh: its a good book, and more modern than PCL (it points you to non-existant lisp in a box etc) 2017-07-03T08:09:50Z dmh: if you are not deadset on common lisp there is good racket stuff out there too and it's got an easily setup ready-to-go-environment too 2017-07-03T08:10:02Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-03T08:14:01Z Spinfuzor joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:14:42Z impaktor: dmh: I'm not interested in ever doing anything outside emacs. :) 2017-07-03T08:14:59Z impaktor: But I don't mind scheme. In fact, I like scheme a lot. 2017-07-03T08:15:39Z dmh: i dont doubt there is a racket mode but understand. its a very mature scheme extension with amazing library coverage 2017-07-03T08:15:58Z impaktor: What do you mean "non existant lisp in a box"? I assume this is some interactive stuff in the e-version? Wait, there is a physical version of the book, right? I read my books on paper. 2017-07-03T08:16:02Z dmh: but more on topic, if you follow land of lisp and feel comfortable with that, quicklisp and friends in end you're in a good spot 2017-07-03T08:16:12Z dmh: oh no, sorry 2017-07-03T08:16:41Z dmh: I mean in PCL, if i recall correctly, the setup section wants you to download 'lisp-in-a-box' or such, which mostly seemed aimed at windows users. it was emacs w/ everything setup already 2017-07-03T08:16:54Z dmh: so if you're an emacs user you're already leagues ahead 2017-07-03T08:17:00Z dmh: the physical book is still available 2017-07-03T08:17:23Z dmh: or at least was :) ive seen copies in meatspace 2017-07-03T08:17:54Z dmh: oh, but what i meant by nonexistant was a lot of dead links, outdated setup info etc 2017-07-03T08:18:27Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T08:18:35Z dmh: but its quite easy to get going these days, if you just setup emacs (you're good there), have a good lisp in your path (sbcl,ccl,allegro whatever) and install quicklisp you can pretty much start 2017-07-03T08:18:56Z impaktor: ah, OK. 2017-07-03T08:19:12Z impaktor: (regarding dead links) 2017-07-03T08:19:21Z dmh: i read it as someone new to emacs (years ago) and just kept spamming eval buffer and got through it. nothing crazy needed 2017-07-03T08:19:30Z dmh: cheesy text mode adventures ahoy 2017-07-03T08:21:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:24:43Z easye disagrees. "The Grand Theft Wumpus shows how to create graphs in Lisp, and is well written". 2017-07-03T08:25:29Z easye has never seen the paper version. I can't get it locally. 2017-07-03T08:26:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T08:26:49Z dmh: oh wait 2017-07-03T08:26:53Z dmh: i forgot about that 2017-07-03T08:26:59Z dmh: fair points :D 2017-07-03T08:27:07Z easye: Ah, sorry dmh, I misread you. You weren't necesarily criticising the text. 2017-07-03T08:27:10Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:27:22Z dmh: also, when i said copies, it wasnt in store. used copies kicking around etc. I think it's been out of print a while 2017-07-03T08:27:44Z easye: We should defintely have a book table at the next ELS. 2017-07-03T08:28:41Z dmh: man, I did forget about the most violent programming example ever put in a book 2017-07-03T08:28:44Z dmh: i need to read it again 2017-07-03T08:29:23Z impaktor: ELS? 2017-07-03T08:29:41Z impaktor: Some event/conference in US? 2017-07-03T08:29:44Z easye: European Lisp Symposium. The next one is near a beach in Spain. 2017-07-03T08:29:59Z impaktor: No habla espaniol. 2017-07-03T08:30:10Z easye: habla se cons? 2017-07-03T08:30:15Z dmh: and it is not text mode indeed. libdot / graphviz 2017-07-03T08:30:32Z dmh: wait near a beach? i need to trick my employer into paying for me to go 2017-07-03T08:30:35Z impaktor: Ah, I've used graphviz a bit already. 2017-07-03T08:30:44Z dmh: if 'dot' is in your path i think it will work then 2017-07-03T08:30:50Z impaktor: it is. 2017-07-03T08:31:00Z dmh: you're off to the races 2017-07-03T08:31:39Z impaktor: A day at the races is nice. 2017-07-03T08:31:45Z impaktor: So is a night at the opera. 2017-07-03T08:31:53Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:32:18Z impaktor: Hmm, $17 + shipping to Europe for used copy. 2017-07-03T08:32:44Z dmh: yikes. thats crazy, print the online version or something 2017-07-03T08:35:44Z nostoi joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:38:29Z impaktor: I generally prefer book format. 2017-07-03T08:38:46Z impaktor: I'll print chapter 8, which is free, and see if I like it. It's how I did with PCL. 2017-07-03T08:39:06Z impaktor: before buying the physical copy. 2017-07-03T08:40:04Z _death: there's also http://lisperati.com/casting.html 2017-07-03T08:41:55Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:44:13Z dmh: oh sorry, i was thinking PCL, not land of lisp 2017-07-03T08:44:23Z dmh: land of lisp was still in print i thought 2017-07-03T08:44:42Z dmh: i recently read this, its a lil rough around the edges but a decent whirlwind tour 2017-07-03T08:45:09Z dmh: https://leanpub.com/lovinglisp 2017-07-03T08:45:34Z dmh: no physical copies tho 2017-07-03T08:50:29Z marvin3 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T08:52:18Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T08:56:01Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T08:59:52Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:00:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:02:04Z krrrcks_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:02:17Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:03:47Z p_l: isn't loving lisp on its 4th edition? 2017-07-03T09:05:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:06:04Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:06:25Z BW^-: a paper says "One of the most promising automatic storage reclamation techniques, generation-based storage reclamation, suffers poor performance if many objects live for a fairly long time and then die. ". what's their point? 2017-07-03T09:07:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:08:22Z beach: The point of the writers of that paper? 2017-07-03T09:08:36Z p_l: BW^-: it's about breaking the assumptions of Generational GC - that a) objects live mostly short lives b) if an object lives long enough, it's probably not going to be removed. 2017-07-03T09:08:41Z p_l: So I guess a critique 2017-07-03T09:08:57Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T09:09:25Z p_l: An interesting release valve on that is when you have Regions exposed from the GC (like in Symbolics Lisp), aka the thing that Rust crowd harps a lot on ;) 2017-07-03T09:09:56Z p_l: then you can identify such objects and explicitly allocate them in a separate area to be freed at will without impacting permanent generation 2017-07-03T09:11:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:11:59Z beach: BW^-: You really should read the book. It has great summaries and comparisons of all the major techniques. 2017-07-03T09:12:12Z p_l: the GC book? 2017-07-03T09:12:32Z beach: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025255 2017-07-03T09:12:35Z beach: THE book. 2017-07-03T09:12:53Z p_l: Yes, that is THE book 2017-07-03T09:12:57Z beach: Indeed. 2017-07-03T09:13:19Z Merv__ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:13:25Z p_l: I honestly would love to have a subscription for it so I wouldn't have to worry about ammo when throwing it at junior programmers 2017-07-03T09:13:48Z beach: "subscription"? 2017-07-03T09:13:54Z p_l: (velocity dependant on thick-headness of the dev in question) 2017-07-03T09:14:06Z beach: Receive a copy every month? 2017-07-03T09:14:09Z p_l: beach: as in "we will deliver few copies every quarter" ;D 2017-07-03T09:14:11Z p_l: yep 2017-07-03T09:14:21Z beach: Good plan, actually. 2017-07-03T09:14:22Z p_l: beach: to make it easy to give it away (with force if needed) 2017-07-03T09:14:49Z beach: And to have one even when the previous person you lent it to didn't give it back. 2017-07-03T09:14:56Z p_l: beach: :) 2017-07-03T09:15:00Z loke`: I thought 50 Shades of Grey was _THE_ book? :-) 2017-07-03T09:15:05Z beach: ... which happens frequently to me, and I can never remember who it is. 2017-07-03T09:15:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:15:22Z p_l: beach: considered applying "Ex Libris" markings to your books? 2017-07-03T09:16:28Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:16:40Z beach: p_l: You assume that the person I lent it doesn't give it back because he or she doesn't know who the owner is. Not the case. They are perfectly willing to keep it anyway. 2017-07-03T09:16:50Z p_l: :) 2017-07-03T09:16:54Z p_l: it's a good book 2017-07-03T09:17:09Z beach: I don't know how many thousands of Euros in books I have lost that way. 2017-07-03T09:17:21Z p_l: One of the things I miss the most from being at University is access to the university library 2017-07-03T09:19:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:20:07Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T09:20:26Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:21:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:21:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:21:56Z BW^-: p_l: yeah but how do generational collectors embody that?? i don't see it.. 2017-07-03T09:22:16Z BW^-: p_l: a central point with a generational collector is that if a cycle appears, it'll be among the youngest objects right as that's the only place they can appear?? 2017-07-03T09:22:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:22:19Z beach: BW^-: I strongly recommend the book. 2017-07-03T09:22:23Z beach: It explains all that. 2017-07-03T09:22:26Z BW^-: (and any mutations to an old object would redefine an object as new) 2017-07-03T09:22:29Z BW^-: aha 2017-07-03T09:22:39Z p_l: BW^-: the book is very in depth on that, yes 2017-07-03T09:23:07Z p_l: but generally the issue is that permanent generation is usually much slower/problematic to collect than nursery and intermediate ones 2017-07-03T09:23:27Z beach: BW^-: It doesn't matter where cycles appear. 2017-07-03T09:24:12Z p_l: so if you have a long lived set of objects that will then become unused at later point, you'll have chances of either a partial memory leak (depending on characteristics of the system) or an inconvenient pause 2017-07-03T09:24:16Z BW^-: beach,p_l: is "Garbage Collection Algorithms For Automatic Dynamic Memory Management" fine to? 2017-07-03T09:24:26Z beach: BW^-: If the "generational hypothesis" (i.e. that most objects die young) is satisfied, then, since a copying collector only scans live data, very few objects will be scanned. 2017-07-03T09:24:46Z BW^-: beach: ok 2017-07-03T09:25:40Z beach: BW^-: That's the first edition. Much was updated in the second edition. 2017-07-03T09:25:46Z BW^-: aha. 2017-07-03T09:26:01Z beach: I have both (obviously). 2017-07-03T09:26:19Z impaktor left #lisp 2017-07-03T09:26:45Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T09:27:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:29:44Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T09:31:07Z BW^-: ok 2017-07-03T09:33:50Z BW^-: beach: aha here is the index to the new edition , https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e910/c53add23cfaa3e7cf990505c0f5fdbbba137.pdf 2017-07-03T09:35:04Z beach: Looks right. 2017-07-03T09:37:34Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-07-03T09:37:41Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:40:05Z ludston quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:40:11Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:40:43Z dmh: p_l: i think you are mistaken? loving lisp only recently got 'finished' by the author 2017-07-03T09:41:21Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T09:41:50Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:42:47Z jackdaniel: "< loke`> I thought 50 Shades of Grey was _THE_ book? :-)" – something about streams I presume? ;-) 2017-07-03T09:43:33Z loke`: jackdaniel: Something that :-) 2017-07-03T09:43:42Z loke`: Something _like_ that. 2017-07-03T09:46:18Z dmh: NSWF! unbuffered streams 2017-07-03T09:46:27Z dmh: typo :( 2017-07-03T09:47:27Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:48:28Z beach: Please don't misspell David Gray's name. :) 2017-07-03T09:48:41Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:48:58Z lvo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T09:49:13Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-03T09:49:18Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-07-03T09:57:57Z cmatei joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:02:12Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:06:37Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:06:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:08:12Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T10:16:29Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T10:18:43Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:21:16Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:21:21Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T10:21:25Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:22:19Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:22:26Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:23:02Z mrottenkolber quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T10:23:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:23:38Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:23:50Z BW^-: beach,p_l: what do you think about the design paste I PM:ed you? 2017-07-03T10:24:47Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:27:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:27:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:30:49Z p_l: BW^-: sounds like a rather more complex attempt on refcounting, but I might be biased and/or not reading deeply enough 2017-07-03T10:30:54Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:31:13Z p_l: the separate "cyclical object database" especially 2017-07-03T10:31:34Z p_l: seems to also heavily increase overhead of MM 2017-07-03T10:32:19Z malice: Hi! When trying to quickload :mcclim, I get an error(during loading one of its dependancies, :deflate) : "no translation for #P"SYS:DEFLATE.FAS"". 2017-07-03T10:32:38Z malice: I have the same version of ASDF and SBCL as my laptop, and on my laptop I don't have this problem. 2017-07-03T10:32:39Z malice: What could be the cause? 2017-07-03T10:32:53Z malice: Or, how can I fix it? 2017-07-03T10:33:32Z alex_e quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:34:11Z malice: The stack trace shows that the one to signal the condition is #'translate-logical-pathname called by ASDF - normalize-namestring. The rest of stack consists of some lambdas and methods; looks like it recursively walks some tree structure. 2017-07-03T10:34:34Z malice: Since deflate's definition looks quite simple, I don't really know what could be the cause. I couldn' 2017-07-03T10:35:53Z malice: I couldn't stop anything fishy, and as I said, it works on my laptop. I tried clearing ASDF's cache (asdf:clear-configuration) and (asdf:clear-source-registry) but it did not help. 2017-07-03T10:37:08Z lagagain joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:38:05Z p_l: malice: what implementation, btw? 2017-07-03T10:39:13Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:40:34Z malice: p_l: SBCL 1.3.18 2017-07-03T10:40:50Z malice: ASDF version: 3.1.5 2017-07-03T10:45:49Z BW^-_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:46:02Z BW^-_: beach,p_l: back. 2017-07-03T10:46:56Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:47:11Z BW^-_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T10:47:33Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:52:38Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:54:32Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T10:58:56Z shka: hey folks 2017-07-03T10:59:11Z shka: i have question regarding history of programming 2017-07-03T10:59:24Z shka: when docstrings where invented? 2017-07-03T11:00:45Z Amplituhedron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T11:00:48Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:01:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:02:58Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:04:11Z trn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T11:05:58Z peterhil joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:06:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:06:24Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T11:07:10Z BW^-: bbl 2017-07-03T11:07:14Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-03T11:07:47Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:07:48Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:07:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:09:03Z BW^- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T11:13:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:13:55Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:23:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:24:20Z trn joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:25:20Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:26:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:28:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:29:38Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T11:31:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:34:25Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:41:05Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T11:41:34Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-03T11:44:34Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:45:01Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:45:10Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T11:46:00Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:48:26Z spacemn joined #lisp 2017-07-03T11:56:21Z goon_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:00:18Z Merv__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T12:01:02Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:02:06Z goon_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T12:03:48Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:05:21Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:08:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:10:10Z serviteur quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:10:50Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:21:34Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T12:21:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:24:46Z Spinfuzor quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:25:15Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T12:25:36Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:28:17Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:41:11Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:43:20Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:43:54Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:44:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:44:17Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:47:48Z lvo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T12:48:33Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:50:09Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:53:59Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T12:54:24Z mfiano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T12:54:51Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:55:32Z Younder joined #lisp 2017-07-03T12:55:59Z Dan1973 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-03T12:56:01Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:56:51Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T12:57:47Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:02:40Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-03T13:04:44Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:05:37Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:12:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:14:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:14:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-03T13:14:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:14:03Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T13:14:28Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:21:16Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:25:22Z foom2 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:25:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:28:10Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:29:32Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T13:31:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:34:25Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:35:17Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T13:35:22Z easieste joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:39:07Z tapioco: hi 2017-07-03T13:39:19Z tapioco: please how can I escape " inside css-lite:css 2017-07-03T13:39:23Z tapioco: thanks 2017-07-03T13:41:22Z edgar-rft: I've no idea about css-lite but the first thing I would try is writing \" instead of " 2017-07-03T13:41:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:44:51Z easieste quit (Quit: easieste) 2017-07-03T13:48:32Z madmalik joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:54:47Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-03T13:57:20Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:59:28Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:00:05Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T14:00:43Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-03T14:05:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:05:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:07:30Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:10:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:11:22Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-03T14:13:26Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:13:28Z Younder: As a general rule unless your database is really bit try a db in mem. Much better perceived response. Particularly for web which is read mostly. 2017-07-03T14:15:04Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T14:15:28Z Younder: https://franz.com/products/allegrocache/ of a free alternative 2017-07-03T14:16:13Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:17:07Z p_l: Except when you need more than one host to access it, and then suddenly many database offerings (or even plain Redis) do the caching for you 2017-07-03T14:21:23Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:24:46Z Younder: Agreed, many servers, ACID compliance, now postgresql seems right. 2017-07-03T14:24:52Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:25:32Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T14:25:50Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:25:50Z Younder: It's that mysql isam thing the falls between two chairs 2017-07-03T14:27:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:28:22Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T14:29:14Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:30:38Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:31:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T14:32:42Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:32:53Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:36:11Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:36:11Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:37:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:37:43Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:41:33Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:42:05Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:42:22Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:44:08Z p_l: well, yeah 2017-07-03T14:44:12Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:44:42Z holycow2 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-03T14:45:26Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:51:27Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-03T14:53:57Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:55:29Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T14:56:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T14:57:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T15:00:06Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-03T15:01:57Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:04:40Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:08:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:08:55Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:11:17Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T15:11:20Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T15:20:44Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:22:53Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:23:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:30:07Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T15:31:05Z flames` joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:31:46Z flames` left #lisp 2017-07-03T15:32:24Z adlaistevenson quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-03T15:35:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T15:38:16Z atgreen quit (Quit: atgreen) 2017-07-03T15:38:58Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-03T15:47:27Z dim: if you're not too sure about what database to pick, just pick PostgreSQL, you won't be disappointed 2017-07-03T15:48:05Z dim: (and soon you will be able to read my book about it, intended at developers who want to make the most out of picking postgresql) 2017-07-03T15:48:26Z dim: (sorry for self promotion, couldn't resist) 2017-07-03T15:53:22Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-03T15:59:31Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:00:17Z omilu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:00:27Z ryanbw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:02:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:02:51Z adolf_stalin quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T16:04:24Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:06:08Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:08:20Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T16:14:57Z Omik joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:14:58Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-03T16:19:48Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:19:48Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:19:48Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:19:49Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:20:02Z hiq[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T16:20:02Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T16:20:24Z malm quit (Quit: Bye bye) 2017-07-03T16:21:35Z malm joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:25:42Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:25:57Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:30:31Z Omik quit (Quit: node-irc says goodbye) 2017-07-03T16:33:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:35:30Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:35:30Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:35:30Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:35:30Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:35:31Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:40:09Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:41:06Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:42:44Z omik joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:46:26Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:48:32Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T16:48:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:50:06Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:50:21Z stara joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:52:30Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:55:16Z stara: How create executable file (Common Lisp)? 2017-07-03T16:55:17Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T16:56:32Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T16:57:34Z dim: clhs save-application-and-dir 2017-07-03T16:57:34Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for save-application-and-dir. 2017-07-03T16:57:37Z dim: clhs save-application-and-die 2017-07-03T16:57:37Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for save-application-and-die. 2017-07-03T16:57:44Z Bike: depends on your implementation. there's generally a "dump image" function. 2017-07-03T16:57:47Z Bike: it's not standard. 2017-07-03T16:58:01Z dim: I guess it's de-facto standard? 2017-07-03T16:58:10Z dim: there's also buildapp and other tools 2017-07-03T16:58:39Z stara quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-03T16:59:39Z omik quit (Quit: node-irc says goodbye) 2017-07-03T17:01:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:01:47Z spacemn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:02:06Z stara joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:03:08Z stara: How do executable file (Common Lisp)? 2017-07-03T17:03:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:03:47Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:03:52Z Bike: did you not see our replies? 2017-07-03T17:04:04Z phoe: stara: UIOP:DUMP-IMAGE 2017-07-03T17:04:56Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:05:04Z stara: Bike I went out. 2017-07-03T17:05:44Z guest1919 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:06:08Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:06:28Z stara quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T17:06:52Z grumble quit (Quit: ) 2017-07-03T17:06:53Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:07:10Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:07:47Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:09:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:14:31Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T17:18:51Z Younder: dim save-lisp-and-die is SBCL specific 2017-07-03T17:22:14Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:24:47Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:25:04Z spacemn joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:25:57Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:27:13Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:28:34Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:29:36Z guest1919 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T17:29:51Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T17:30:06Z DrPete quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-03T17:31:58Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:35:36Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T17:37:44Z shka_: he all 2017-07-03T17:37:51Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:40:09Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:41:11Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T17:50:51Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-03T17:51:02Z optikalmouse: hello hello 2017-07-03T17:55:51Z phoe: hey optikalmouse 2017-07-03T17:55:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T17:56:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T17:59:48Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T18:00:03Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:00:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T18:02:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:02:27Z kajo quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T18:02:48Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:08:50Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T18:09:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T18:09:54Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:10:22Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:16:54Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-03T18:18:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T18:23:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:24:50Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T18:27:50Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:29:19Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:30:36Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:34:03Z ddd12 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T18:43:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:44:52Z Hoolootwo left #lisp 2017-07-03T18:45:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T18:45:19Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T18:46:30Z drcode quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-03T18:46:44Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:46:56Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:51:14Z epipping points at https://github.com/epipping/cl-echo which shows how to build a trivial standalone executable with asdf 2017-07-03T18:53:16Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:54:45Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T18:55:12Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:06:01Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:09:39Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:12:52Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:13:06Z notbarton quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T19:13:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:13:37Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:13:40Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:16:32Z fkac quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-03T19:17:13Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T19:17:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T19:18:16Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:20:25Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:24:35Z tomaw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T19:28:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T19:32:13Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:35:15Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T19:35:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:38:09Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T19:38:22Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T19:39:02Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:42:55Z tomaw joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:46:41Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T19:55:13Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:57:38Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:59:02Z nightfly joined #lisp 2017-07-03T19:59:30Z m0j0 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-03T20:02:07Z DeadTrickster quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T20:02:27Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:03:42Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting) 2017-07-03T20:03:57Z tomaw joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:06:26Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting) 2017-07-03T20:06:28Z tomaw joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:11:40Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:11:40Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T20:12:31Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:12:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:22:39Z eck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T20:26:31Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:27:32Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T20:29:53Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T20:31:28Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:31:30Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T20:33:05Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T20:35:42Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T20:35:51Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:37:56Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:38:07Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:41:33Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-03T20:42:58Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:48:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-03T20:49:17Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-03T20:49:46Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:03:40Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-03T21:08:17Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T21:08:49Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T21:08:57Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T21:11:17Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:13:56Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:14:33Z emaczen: is there a default restart that I can invoke which will just retry calling the function that failed? 2017-07-03T21:15:17Z dim: usually at the interactive debugger there's one named 'retry 2017-07-03T21:15:40Z spacemn left #lisp 2017-07-03T21:16:00Z emaczen: dim: I have seen that, but I want to invoke the restart in a handler 2017-07-03T21:17:38Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T21:18:04Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:18:15Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T21:20:39Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:22:18Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T21:24:19Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T21:24:47Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T21:24:57Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:25:49Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T21:33:31Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T21:34:57Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T21:45:20Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T21:45:42Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:50:28Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:52:19Z dtornabene_ joined #lisp 2017-07-03T21:52:56Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T21:55:59Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T22:02:01Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T22:06:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T22:08:50Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T22:13:01Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-03T22:14:27Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:15:34Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:33:20Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T22:33:52Z d4ryus3 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:35:20Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T22:36:27Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T22:36:30Z omilu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:37:10Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T22:47:40Z nyigki joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:47:42Z nyigki: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: azrazalea Cthulhux malcom2073 zbigniew_ trocado Oladon dcluna ``Erik fiddlerwoaroof phadthai butterthebuddha varuaa whartung Sovereign_Bleak voidlily ecraven j0ni isoraqathedh cibs eMBee GuilOooo gko beaky DGASAU fe[nl]ix d4gg4d_ diegs_ tapioco grumble gadwin_ thinkpad larsen brendos zkat safe kjak_ dim rotty antismap` thijso eazar001 sveit pareidolia cross pacon_ Zotan ec\ jasom zymurgy leo_song 2017-07-03T22:47:42Z nyigki quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:48:06Z mvkwzkjy joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:48:07Z mvkwzkjy: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: larsen fluxit koisoke mulk Blkt_ safe ryanbw c0dehero Riviera brucem pok Arcaelyx tephra jyc_ krrrcks White_Flame arrdem diegs_ ft malm grublet Guest54503 Subfusc gadwin_ oleo kajo Jesin krator44 defaultxr Zotan Guest81856 gko PuercoPop gendl voidlily SiCC capisce xantoz sohail_ argoneus gremly hiq[m] Karunamon|2 rvirding l1x jself nimiux adulteratedjedi amerlyq wizzo 2017-07-03T22:48:08Z mvkwzkjy: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Karunamon|2 White_Flame peterhil mklk_ banjiewen Bike justinmcp_ mulk krrrcks xantoz safe cods ozzloy c0dehero trocado MrWoohoo thinkpad stux|RC-only shrdlu68 myrkraverk cibs askatasuna SlashLife guaqua_ Walex2 omilu phoe arrsim snits_ Nikotiini malm X-Scale jibanes oleo vert2 Lord_Nightmare arrdem foom2 eMBee spacepluk Jach[m] cpape beach dschoepe Blkt_ Reinisch thorondor[m] chat____4 eagleflo chu 2017-07-03T22:48:08Z mvkwzkjy quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:48:21Z tarvpnhx joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:48:22Z tarvpnhx: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: funnel Firedancer_ dan64 Subfusc Zotan jasom bailon eagleflo libreman stux|RC-only redcedar mood moei jibanes Merv vhost- sbryant jdz Riviera brucem arrsim clog Kevslinger jyc_ shrdlu68 zuz djh krasnal ccl-logbot wizzo malcom2073 larme renard_ HDurer2 tokenrove trig-ger itruslove lieven keviv orivej joga Lord_Nightmare Fade clamchowder foom2 grumble Odin- jean377_ jerme_ splittist 2017-07-03T22:48:22Z tarvpnhx quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:48:37Z grublet: neat 2017-07-03T22:48:46Z kajo: what 2017-07-03T22:48:48Z joga: I liked the instant Killed.. 2017-07-03T22:48:54Z fyjbgbis joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:48:55Z fyjbgbis: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: LyndsySimon Jach[m] dan64 fluter arrsim optikalmouse jean377_ eagleflo diegs_ jibanes keviv Enderbsd foom2 Patzy angavri chu ccl-logbot borodust Fade mfiano rann grublet renard_ Odin- slyrus mulk oleo itruslove gbyers Suzuran kush chat____4 felideon sohail_ Firedancer_ jself lonjil zaquest l1x dlowe xantoz p_l scymtym vsync bend3r_ Bike knicklux gabot quazimodo krrrcks 2017-07-03T22:48:55Z fyjbgbis quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:49:00Z joga: heh 2017-07-03T22:49:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T22:49:12Z diegs_: the hell is goin on in this channel recently 2017-07-03T22:49:13Z Reinisch: (setq *racism* nil) 2017-07-03T22:49:16Z Bike: next time i see one of their posters i should burn it instead of just tearing it down 2017-07-03T22:49:18Z thinwmw joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:49:19Z thinwmw: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: nopf rjeli trn sveit nicdev felideon White_Flame krrrcks sondr3 TMA funnel dschoepe rann PuercoPop bailon nightfly GGMethos dtornabene_ HDurer Zotan slyrus angerTr0n raydeejay Arcaelyx p_l ski vert2 abbe cross Odin- gremly peterhil d4gg4d_ Colleen dwrngr filwisher Zhivago froggey velvetcore_ EvW fluxit lieven koisoke clamchowder Aritheanie mklk_ Jesin tokenrove gabot SlashLife 2017-07-03T22:49:19Z thinwmw quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:49:26Z fhwihqod joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:49:28Z fhwihqod: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Bike MrWoohoo snits_ velvetcore_ forgot Oladon Jesin arrdem libreman Odin- mingus brendos Blkt_ axion HDurer jsnell antismap` jean377_ nightfly ircbrowse eMBee Firedancer_ Khisanth fouric1 baroncharlus keviv optikalmouse angerTr0n les Karunamon|2 norfumpit jasom peterhil jibanes capisce _death rotty heurist newcup phadthai filwisher danlentz Posterdati nimiux fiddlerwoaroof dtornabene_ Walex2 benny djh jdz 2017-07-03T22:49:28Z fhwihqod quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:49:32Z Bike: diegs_: they're just spamming freenode channels randomly. we got a lot of them last year 2017-07-03T22:50:06Z djetmc joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:50:08Z djetmc: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: SiCC gz_ drdo ryanbw jibanes tokenrove ecraven gbyers mrottenkolber gendl fouric1 kushal Fade eagleflo sondr3 dcluna nightfly lieven Firedancer_ whartung kobain aaronjensen p_l malcom2073 antoszka trocado mood vibs29 luis c0dehero Arcaelyx giraffe XachX lancetw sveit nikivi _death kajo jean377_ angular_mike_ PuercoPop shenghi dan64 kilimanjaro grumble raydeejay jyc_ brucem nhandler redcedar 2017-07-03T22:50:08Z djetmc quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:50:20Z joga: aww for them I guess 2017-07-03T22:50:29Z optikalmouse: well, that was uncalled for. 2017-07-03T22:50:32Z ypjwdpl joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:50:33Z ypjwdpl: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: brucem hiq[m] arrsim moei bailon EvW nimiux shrdlu68 Odin- splittist lxpz pchrist dcluna eck shka kjeldahl kilimanjaro grumble larme ck_ nhandler leo_song kushal foom2 otwieracz Blkt_ thorondor[m] joga nicdev defaultxr tmc nikivi drcode vhost- cyraxjoe SiCC Arcaelyx d4ryus3 tfb knobo drdo ccl-logbot fluxit RichardPaulBck[m krrrcks kobain rjeli eli malm dan64 2017-07-03T22:50:33Z ypjwdpl quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:50:50Z joga: not that much can be done without premoderation 2017-07-03T22:51:02Z kajo: can't fe[nl]ix ban them 2017-07-03T22:51:11Z zdsbqyo joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:51:13Z zdsbqyo: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: kajo sveit forgot eli koisoke Younder Bike dedmons dispersed terpri grumble drmeister ft fe[nl]ix Lord_of_Life cpt_nemo catern trn lonjil beaky White_Flame Sovereign_Bleak brucem arrdem optikalmouse Enderbsd wizzo trig-ger nightfly Jach[m] emacsomancer phinxy tess sondr3 jerme_ RichardPaulBck[m AntiSpamMeta nopf thorondor[m] moei cibs d4gg4d_ Subfusc zkat jibanes SlashLife swflint askatasuna jurov MrWoohoo 2017-07-03T22:51:13Z zdsbqyo quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:51:13Z tqdtikj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:51:15Z tqdtikj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T22:51:15Z joga: a random nickname and random host? 2017-07-03T22:51:35Z joga: it's someone's money and time anyway...losers 2017-07-03T22:51:48Z kajo: ah i see 2017-07-03T22:51:53Z kajo: meh 2017-07-03T22:52:06Z shenghi: Happened in the weekend, too. 2017-07-03T22:52:08Z iuhxdq joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:52:10Z iuhxdq: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: shrdlu68 jsnell jyc_ oleo _death lemoinem sohail_ l1x ozzloy pchrist ggherdov emaczen Riviera dtornabene_ theBlackDragon zymurgy neuri8 vibs29 justinmcp_ flip214 nimiux mulk eschulte_ cmatei sebboh RichardPaulBck[m pok gbyers dTal joeygibson PuercoPop jerme_ tephra drdo eazar001 foom2 diegs_ danlentz knobo axion Merv mrottenkolber koisoke zbigniew_ bailon dcluna sukaeto isoraqathedh Guest54503 varuaa 2017-07-03T22:52:10Z iuhxdq quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:52:11Z oedkaeqa joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:52:13Z oedkaeqa: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: eschulte_ l1x GGMethos Colleen clamchowder LyndsySimon xantoz redcedar froggey kajo rann Subfusc kobain cmatei phinxy shrdlu68 SiCC add^_ TeMPOraL convexferret mingus ksool_ SlashLife cpape gko emaczen funnel dwrngr misv dispersed neuri8 grublet dmiles jyc_ swflint eck cyraxjoe defaultxr cross fiddlerwoaroof shka moei arrsim billstclair j0ni zymurgy P01yM0rp4 larsen phadthai dmh 2017-07-03T22:52:13Z oedkaeqa quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:52:18Z axion: Banning won't do much. 2017-07-03T22:52:25Z joga: +m sorta helps but is bothersome 2017-07-03T22:52:29Z axion: You;d have to set a channel mode to be registered to send to it 2017-07-03T22:52:34Z grublet: my question is, why is it targeting only #lisp? 2017-07-03T22:52:43Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:52:43Z nbokeg joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:52:44Z nbokeg: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: jyc_ samebchase mingus froggey krasnal hjudt keviv mrottenkolber misv Xach Fade tobel tonton HDurer2 c0dehero forgot ym j0ni larsen billstclair Subfusc dschoepe xristos peterhil gendl neuri8 pareidolia vibs29 dlowe rotty hvxgr drdo Mandus joga knicklux GGMethos whartung Oddity antismap` eMBee nhandler trn splittist libreman krator44 sveit raydeejay dispersed butterthebuddha safe 2017-07-03T22:52:44Z nbokeg quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:52:46Z joga: maybe because there's no restriction 2017-07-03T22:52:53Z grublet: good point 2017-07-03T22:53:01Z kajo: perhaps a restriction would be a good idea then 2017-07-03T22:53:15Z axmpsij joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:53:17Z axmpsij: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Arcaelyx Blkt_ samebchase Jach[m] nicdev himmAllRight libreman AntiSpamMeta trocado newcup optikalmouse billstclair antoszka sondr3 adulteratedjedi tfb foom2 heurist mjl z0d argoneus X-Scale spacepluk tokenrove Zotan LyndsySimon joeygibson sohail_ mfiano Xach drmeister arrsim Reinisch Patzy GGMethos gko Firedancer_ vibs29 EvW trn gremly voidlily gabot pareidolia emacsomancer ft scymtym jself Enderbsd kobain 2017-07-03T22:53:17Z axmpsij quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:53:23Z xybvqzli joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:53:25Z xybvqzli: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: whartung vhost- c0dehero kajo ft Subfusc X-Scale jean377_ felideon ogkloo nicdev thinkpad nikivi Sovereign_Bleak raydeejay Zhivago sveit jibanes fluxit Patzy scymtym eck gabiruh_ arrsim n safe mfiano moei diegs_ zuz vsync benny knobo hiq[m] larsen redcedar XachX grublet chinchilla orivej newcup phoe butterthebuddha spacepluk samebchase himmAllRight terpri jerme_ Intensity ryanbw 2017-07-03T22:53:25Z xybvqzli quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:53:27Z kajo: especially if it happens so frequently 2017-07-03T22:53:31Z joga: I've been idling in a lot of ~empty chans on ircnet that are non-secret and they get all sorts of spam every now and then, just a hit-and-run urling 2017-07-03T22:53:32Z diegs_: Seriously, i'm not getting this in any other channels 2017-07-03T22:54:03Z axion: Well tomaw is here 2017-07-03T22:54:08Z joga: someone just scripts some stuff to iterate through all public channels and spams msg 2017-07-03T22:54:12Z axion: If anyone can fix it he can 2017-07-03T22:54:25Z oewxdzu joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:54:27Z oewxdzu: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: shka jerme_ SiCC benny raydeejay les GuilOooo krrrcks dan64 akkad Subfusc Kevslinger sondr3 optikalmouse MrWoohoo cmatei l1x libreman Guest54503 malcom2073 oleo tapioco Walex2 |3b| ck_ whartung foom2 grublet o`connor omilu Mandus chat____4 banjiewen trn rann fe[nl]ix stee_3 add^_ Younder arrdem HDurer2 cyberlard pchrist jyc_ fiddlerwoaroof Zotan fluxit xristos gbyers eMBee 2017-07-03T22:54:27Z oewxdzu quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:54:41Z gityfs joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:54:43Z gityfs: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: ircbrowse stux|RC-only bend3r_ phinxy rotty misv keviv borodust kjak_ setheus tephra sebboh flazh c0dehero leo_song XachX banjiewen LyndsySimon kilimanjaro hvxgr ec\ joeygibson kobain abbe Bike Meow-J eazar001 HDurer2 zymurgy orivej trocado GuilOooo sveit ogkloo Jach[m] baroncharlus cyraxjoe Xach jself askatasuna tuturto vert2 felideon fouric1 Kevslinger MrWoohoo malm himmAllRight marvin3 Subfusc 2017-07-03T22:54:43Z gityfs quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:55:06Z eotdq joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:55:08Z eotdq: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: MrBismuth zaquest dan64 X-Scale zuz ec\ ramus mfiano Khisanth tuturto raydeejay argoneus dschoepe fluxit tessier_ dTal thijso sbryant oleo krasnal Subfusc dlowe GGMethos joga butterthebuddha Firedancer_ Tristam abbe justinmcp_ gz_ antismap` Jesin ogkloo chu l1x setheus cibs sebboh ozzloy joast kobain ck_ ft swflint safe jibanes PuercoPop zymurgy eli orivej 2017-07-03T22:55:08Z eotdq quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:55:16Z ssiiuv joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:55:18Z ssiiuv: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: Lord_Nightmare cibs trocado azrazalea Sovereign_Bleak pareidolia nicdev Fade rann krasnal heu Riviera Meow-J j0ni joeygibson cyberlard grublet tapioco PuercoPop raydeejay krrrcks l1x kbtr fouric1 jasom Tristam leo_song jsnell rotty ft HDurer2 jurov sukaeto angavrilov ski emaczen Younder zuz sondr3 thijso ArthurAGleckler[ o`connor Zotan Cthulhux TeMPOraL velvetcore_ beach mood zbigniew_ gremly 2017-07-03T22:55:18Z ssiiuv quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:55:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T22:55:34Z fkac: Well that was new 2017-07-03T22:55:43Z phjoj joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:55:45Z phjoj: HAPPY NIGGERS DAY!! quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: nhandler cmatei banjiewen Jesin gabiruh_ emaczen kajo drcode dim kilimanjaro moei shenghi Younder Lord_Nightmare ck_ angular_mike_ X-Scale vibs29 bend3r_ baroncharlus Subfusc rvirding p_l XachX lonjil knicklux tkd pacon_ Reinisch sondr3 emacsomancer eck dcluna tmc shrdlu68 ecraven vhost- velvetcore_ mrottenkolber malm zbigniew_ rjeli ogkloo samebchase eagleflo tokenrove chu drdo swflint trocado 2017-07-03T22:55:45Z phjoj quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-03T22:55:51Z zaquest left #lisp 2017-07-03T22:56:06Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-03T22:56:08Z joga: eventually without some sort of ID, there will just be a constant flood of whatever shit someone wants to spam 2017-07-03T22:56:44Z joga: although it's sort of a bother either way 2017-07-03T22:57:05Z phadthai: "they discover lisp, then, the illumination is so great that they just lose their mind and become spamming robots" 2017-07-03T22:57:20Z shenghi: Then again, registering with nickserv is easily automated, too. 2017-07-03T22:57:33Z joga: maybe someone ought to find out who all of those hosts belong to 2017-07-03T22:57:47Z axion: joga: tor exit nodes 2017-07-03T22:58:00Z joga: oh, freenode allowed those.. ok 2017-07-03T22:58:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T22:59:15Z optikalmouse left #lisp 2017-07-03T23:00:39Z Lord_Nightmare: hmm is the channel set to mode +I where you must be nickserv identified to talk? 2017-07-03T23:00:45Z Lord_Nightmare: or whatever mode that is 2017-07-03T23:00:50Z White_Flame: what a bunch of naggers 2017-07-03T23:01:07Z joga: "#lisp(+Ccntz" 2017-07-03T23:01:50Z joga: ..so no, I don't think so, otherwise it would probably require some extra effort from whatever loser is doing that 2017-07-03T23:02:40Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T23:04:39Z White_Flame: I idle on ~15 freenode channels, and I never see spam like this outside of #lisp 2017-07-03T23:06:14Z axion: That is not +I 2017-07-03T23:06:17Z axion: That is +r 2017-07-03T23:06:40Z joga: maybe they're just on the letter L on their alphabetical list of victim channels right now 2017-07-03T23:07:00Z joga: maybe words in the english dict or so 2017-07-03T23:07:00Z joga: :p 2017-07-03T23:07:08Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:07:27Z axion: White_Flame: I idle on about 50 and don't see it either 2017-07-03T23:08:03Z axion: It's because the operators here do not care for restrictive rules, and the spammers know this is a channel with a good amount of users with its shield down 2017-07-03T23:08:33Z White_Flame: most of the other channels I'm in are wide open, too 2017-07-03T23:08:35Z joga: unfortunately there's also some channels with good purpose but no actual mods nor ops these days 2017-07-03T23:08:43Z axion: Which ones? 2017-07-03T23:08:48Z axion: Do they have 400 users 2017-07-03T23:09:03Z joga: well the one I was thinking about has 165 2017-07-03T23:09:18Z p_l: axion: the problem is that it's non-trivial to fight against attacks like those 2017-07-03T23:09:29Z axion: p_l: True, but +r goes a long way 2017-07-03T23:09:32Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah, this is the biggest channel I"m in. Most are 30-80 nicks 2017-07-03T23:09:37Z joga: and mostly it's been harassed by some sort of a real person who's just an incompetent arrogant dick, just ruining the channel 2017-07-03T23:09:59Z p_l: axion: for various reasons, the policy of #lisp was to not go +r 2017-07-03T23:10:35Z p_l: mostly, a possibly misguided, desire to make a more open and welcoming place than the shitfest of c.l.l 2017-07-03T23:10:46Z p_l: (try to browse without huge kill-file...) 2017-07-03T23:10:58Z axion: indeed. Like I said, the operators do not care that they are the biggest target on this IRC network 2017-07-03T23:11:26Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T23:11:27Z p_l: umm... 2017-07-03T23:11:47Z p_l: #go-nuts was just attacked, with barely response, and they have 3.5× the users 2017-07-03T23:12:23Z p_l: we're far from biggest target, unless you mean lisp-specific trolls 2017-07-03T23:13:03Z joga: somehow I don't think whoever does that cares about lisp specifically 2017-07-03T23:13:10Z p_l: yep 2017-07-03T23:13:22Z axion: Sorry, amoung the biggest. Out of the 50 or so channels I'm in, about 10 of them have more than 500, and they are all +r for a reason. 2017-07-03T23:13:25Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:13:37Z p_l: and random nicks and IPs mean it's hard to fix unless I do a big +q or +r 2017-07-03T23:14:49Z p_l: aaand now it's emacs 2017-07-03T23:15:06Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:15:14Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T23:15:15Z p_l: one day I won't care anymore and just find a way to send mob to their basements 2017-07-03T23:15:19Z axion: :) 2017-07-03T23:15:50Z p_l: +r and such are fine and dandy, but mutiliated dickhead paraded across *chans is better 2017-07-03T23:15:53Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:15:54Z jerme_ left #lisp 2017-07-03T23:16:26Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:17:28Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:18:39Z p_l: could probably do +b $~a, but some people might complain 2017-07-03T23:20:24Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:21:36Z Ellenor licks p_l 2017-07-03T23:21:47Z Ellenor: You're talking about a program written in C in a channel for Lisp 2017-07-03T23:21:58Z Ellenor: and I'm an interloper who prefers Tcl 2017-07-03T23:22:09Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T23:22:43Z p_l: which C program? There are IRC libs in CL, you know :) 2017-07-03T23:22:56Z p_l: (and the rest was a case of channels, not programs) 2017-07-03T23:23:04Z Ellenor: p_l: ircd-seven in written in C 2017-07-03T23:23:09Z Ellenor: as is Atheme-services 2017-07-03T23:23:25Z p_l: Ellenor: and neither changes much from our point of view, though 2017-07-03T23:23:38Z Ellenor: except it does, because extbans aren't implemented in all ircds 2017-07-03T23:23:49Z Ellenor: p_l: I'll be honest, I am not supposed to be here. I'm the type to prefer Tool Command Language over Common Lisp. 2017-07-03T23:23:58Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:24:41Z p_l: Ellenor: well, extbans being a thing of our local environment, it doesn't matter if they are implemented in C, Tcl, Erlang or pixie dust ;) 2017-07-03T23:24:48Z p_l: (TCL is pretty nice, though) 2017-07-03T23:25:06Z eck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T23:25:26Z Ellenor: p_l: an IRCd i wrote in Tcl does not implement extbans 2017-07-03T23:25:35Z Ellenor: if that's any hint as to why language is relevant 2017-07-03T23:26:38Z Ellenor: but as is lineage - Charybdis was the first IRCd in its family tree (ircd2.8.21 -> hybrid 7 -> ratbox -> charybdis) to implement extbans, so anything based off it can have extbans too 2017-07-03T23:28:01Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:29:23Z sebboh: grublet, diegs_, joga: it's been in several channels, #lisp is the most recent I've seen. ##networking was the second most recent. 2017-07-03T23:29:44Z diegs_: just happened in #emacs 2017-07-03T23:30:07Z sebboh: #fsf was also hit, like yesterday or the day before. I'm not sure the url was the same then, and the message wasn't. 2017-07-03T23:30:08Z p_l: yeah, on those days I really wonder about keepin the channel -r 2017-07-03T23:31:02Z Ellenor: p_l: are you an op here 2017-07-03T23:31:05Z sebboh: well, on that topic, lemme kill/yank what I just said elsewhere... 2017-07-03T23:31:13Z p_l: yes 2017-07-03T23:31:20Z p_l: less active now than I used to be, but yes 2017-07-03T23:31:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2017-07-03T23:31:36Z p_l bows 2017-07-03T23:31:42Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 2017-07-03T23:31:59Z sebboh: 'I "grew up" on EFnet, so when I first came to freenode, I didn't reflexively register... I stayed unregistered for a long time. I was blocked from many channels... I think you're right to keep the +q $~a off as often as possible.' [ed: +q $~a is similar to +r] 2017-07-03T23:32:49Z Ellenor: i just subtlespammed #emacs 2017-07-03T23:32:52Z Ellenor: :/ 2017-07-03T23:33:04Z grublet: im not in either of those channels 2017-07-03T23:33:15Z Ellenor: sebboh: efnet's a pretty shit network tbh 2017-07-03T23:33:23Z mrottenkolber: dim: let me know when you publish the book 2017-07-03T23:33:57Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-03T23:34:06Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-03T23:36:40Z sebboh: Ellenor: 1997 me thinks you are wrong. 2017 me doesn't know. 2017-07-03T23:37:03Z Ellenor: sebboh: I got unofficially banned from efnet, not by the opers, but by the script kiddies 2017-07-03T23:37:20Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-03T23:37:45Z sebboh: That's fascinating. I, too, had adventures on the internet. 2017-07-03T23:38:25Z Ellenor: If I connect to efnet, I am considered so repulsive by the script kiddie elites that they'll packet me, and I'm probably too toxic to convince Raphidae to call up one of his oper buddies to get me a spoof 2017-07-03T23:38:28Z fkac: TBH #emacs is mostly spam 2017-07-03T23:38:30Z fkac: Just the civilised sort 2017-07-03T23:39:09Z Ellenor: because if a server admin spoofs me, and I use that spoof, and a skiddie gets mad at me, suddenly that server admin will be packeted 2017-07-03T23:39:52Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T23:39:59Z Ellenor: sebboh: Also it's considered bad form to waste a second space between your sentences. What I write is perfectly readable with one space after the full stop, so what you write would be too. 2017-07-03T23:40:36Z fkac thinks it's nice 2017-07-03T23:40:43Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:42:02Z Ellenor: sebboh: And on a chat system designed back when every byte cost a dollar, you're barking mad to even be speaking in full sentences! Let alone putting a second space after a punct-space train 2017-07-03T23:42:36Z White_Flame: txt spk iz teh deval 2017-07-03T23:43:04Z White_Flame: Proper spelling, punctuation, and old-school two spaces after periods is perfectly professional 2017-07-03T23:43:05Z fkac: It is one's duty to gzip one's messages 2017-07-03T23:44:35Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:45:24Z sebboh: Message rendering is a client-side issue. 2017-07-03T23:50:43Z kajo2 joined #lisp 2017-07-03T23:52:47Z White_Flame: I would wildly guess that most IRC clients use monospace fonts 2017-07-03T23:53:29Z White_Flame: although even with a proportional font, there usually isn't a wide-space added in after periods anyway, so double spaces still works well 2017-07-03T23:53:39Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T23:54:43Z axion: The desired or correct sentence spacing is often debated but many sources now say additional space is not necessary or desirable. From around 1950, single sentence spacing became standard in books, magazines and newspapers, and the majority of style guides that use a Latin-derived alphabet as a language base now prescribe or recommend the use of a single space after the concluding punctuation of a sentence. 2017-07-03T23:55:24Z White_Flame: it also depends on what you mean by "space" ;) 2017-07-03T23:55:48Z White_Flame: as a period + normal proportional space is still often less wide then an em 2017-07-03T23:55:51Z axion: French-space 2017-07-04T00:00:17Z dim: we have plenty of them 2017-07-04T00:00:17Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:00:54Z dim: e.g. if you need to have the pen up while drawing a punctuation character then you need a non-breaking space before it 2017-07-04T00:01:09Z dim: as in « comment ça va ? » 2017-07-04T00:01:19Z dim: but not in « ça va. » 2017-07-04T00:01:50Z dim: and of course the space are not the same around quotes and semi-colons etc 2017-07-04T00:02:55Z axion: The French space is just a synonym for a space no wider than a single word-space from what I've read. 2017-07-04T00:03:13Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T00:03:18Z dim: so apparently (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadratin) there's something similar in English with em and en spaces, but we have yet another one in French 2017-07-04T00:04:16Z dim: the thing is that the space before e.g. ; must be a no-break space 2017-07-04T00:04:18Z White_Flame: there's more spaces than just em and en in english, too. There's narrower ones for between subsequent quotes, like "Foo said 'bar' " 2017-07-04T00:04:31Z dim: oh nice 2017-07-04T00:04:44Z axion: There's also an 'en quad' 2017-07-04T00:05:31Z axion: Which means 1.5 word spaces. 2017-07-04T00:06:14Z dim: I'm glad for latex to being quite good about all that 2017-07-04T00:06:35Z edgar-rft: the outer-space is probably the widest of all 2017-07-04T00:06:53Z White_Flame: But I firmly dislike typical french spacing; there's not enough visual distinction between words vs between sentences 2017-07-04T00:07:14Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T00:07:24Z White_Flame: and therefore two spaces on IRC etc etc block the spammers, or something 2017-07-04T00:07:48Z phinxy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T00:08:08Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:08:27Z dim: meanwhile it looks like the next pgloader release is going to be the most solid up to date 2017-07-04T00:11:09Z axion: edgar-rft: character-wise probably. However typesetting and printers have the ability to add variable width spaces as a means to left and right justify text perfectly. 2017-07-04T00:12:26Z axion: Oh that was a joke. 2017-07-04T00:12:33Z marvin3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T00:13:15Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-04T00:14:27Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T00:15:19Z alvis joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:18:23Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:21:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:21:37Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:24:29Z singer22 left #lisp 2017-07-04T00:26:01Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:28:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T00:43:45Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T00:48:19Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:50:13Z dtornabene_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T00:52:17Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:57:40Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-04T00:58:33Z bitch joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:58:44Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-04T00:59:38Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-04T01:00:38Z Fonz joined #lisp 2017-07-04T01:05:11Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T01:06:26Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T01:12:17Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T01:20:02Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-04T01:22:35Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T01:29:41Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-04T01:41:34Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-04T01:48:12Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T01:50:21Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2017-07-04T01:58:36Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T02:01:16Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T02:05:00Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-04T02:08:17Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-04T02:09:49Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T02:20:11Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-04T02:23:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: cool, I was just looking at pgloader for a project at work 2017-07-04T02:24:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: some of our servers store their data in a combination of mongo + mysql and I've been trying to figure out how much trouble it'd be to make it all postgres 2017-07-04T02:31:01Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-04T02:34:59Z fkec joined #lisp 2017-07-04T02:36:07Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-04T02:37:13Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T02:49:58Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T03:08:49Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T03:10:25Z Hoolootwo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T03:10:42Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-04T03:27:22Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-04T03:37:05Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T03:40:46Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T03:48:56Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T03:50:15Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-04T03:53:43Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-04T03:53:51Z X-Scale quit (Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-) 2017-07-04T04:03:05Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:07:02Z ski quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T04:07:28Z flavio81 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-04T04:07:46Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:08:21Z flavio81 left #lisp 2017-07-04T04:08:47Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:08:54Z flavio81 left #lisp 2017-07-04T04:12:11Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-04T04:12:28Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:13:17Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:14:31Z flavio81 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T04:15:10Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T04:16:01Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T04:28:57Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-04T04:31:09Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T04:31:14Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-04T04:33:34Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-04T04:35:17Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:38:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:39:47Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:40:24Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-04T04:43:17Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T04:43:27Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T04:46:14Z LooneyTunes quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-04T04:49:37Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T04:54:08Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T04:54:18Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-04T04:57:26Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:03:27Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:07:15Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-04T05:08:57Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:09:17Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:09:44Z emaczen quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T05:11:55Z Douglas joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:12:05Z Douglas left #lisp 2017-07-04T05:13:00Z akkad joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:14:58Z ryanwatkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T05:15:26Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:17:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:20:37Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-04T05:20:39Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T05:23:11Z eck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:23:30Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-04T05:24:43Z eck joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:26:23Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:26:42Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:28:10Z ozzloy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:28:15Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-04T05:28:45Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:31:52Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:32:51Z slyrus: morning beach 2017-07-04T05:33:29Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:33:29Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2017-07-04T05:33:29Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:42:10Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T05:43:49Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:44:29Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T05:44:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:45:35Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:47:05Z lieven quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2017-07-04T05:47:19Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:47:36Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T05:47:53Z drmeister: Hello all 2017-07-04T05:48:06Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2017-07-04T05:48:22Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:51:04Z lieven joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:58:13Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-04T05:58:25Z alvis quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T05:58:59Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:01:19Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T06:02:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:03:59Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T06:04:39Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:09:33Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T06:10:23Z eck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T06:10:40Z kajo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-04T06:16:37Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:19:22Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:22:40Z Douglas joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:24:17Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T06:26:02Z Douglas left #lisp 2017-07-04T06:26:30Z Douglas joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:26:38Z Douglas left #lisp 2017-07-04T06:27:56Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T06:28:53Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:33:40Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T06:39:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:39:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T06:39:52Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T06:43:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T06:46:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:54:05Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-04T06:55:40Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T06:55:44Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T06:56:20Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:02:27Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T07:02:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:03:02Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:05:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:07:25Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:08:34Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:10:59Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:11:29Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:12:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:12:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:14:07Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T07:14:14Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T07:15:58Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:16:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:21:50Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T07:24:25Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:30:19Z _cosmonaut_1 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:31:12Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:36:33Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:40:07Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:40:36Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:42:20Z jameser quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-04T07:43:52Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-04T07:45:39Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:46:35Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:47:30Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:48:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:49:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:51:53Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:52:24Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:53:09Z defaultxr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T07:53:29Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:53:34Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-04T07:54:53Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T07:56:23Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:57:47Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:03:47Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T08:04:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:04:28Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-04T08:04:50Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:07:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:10:33Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:10:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:13:15Z otwieracz: Hi. It seems like there's no special error condition when there's no applicable method - I'm getting just SIMPLE-ERROR. Is this possible to somehow handle (with handler-case) case, when there is no applicable method? 2017-07-04T08:13:46Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:15:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:16:10Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:16:30Z loke`: otwieracz: Yes. You can write a method NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD 2017-07-04T08:16:32Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:16:46Z loke`: it will be called when there is no method, and it can be used as a final callback of sorts. 2017-07-04T08:16:51Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:17:48Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:17:50Z loke`: You can raise an error of your choosing from there 2017-07-04T08:18:10Z jackdaniel: (defmethod no-applicable-method ((function (eql #'my-generic-function)) &rest args) …) 2017-07-04T08:19:16Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:22:31Z otwieracz: thanks! 2017-07-04T08:24:57Z lanu quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-04T08:30:58Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-04T08:31:15Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:38:24Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:39:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:40:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:41:58Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-04T08:42:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:43:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T08:55:47Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-04T08:57:10Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T08:57:28Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-04T09:05:16Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:12:01Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-04T09:14:57Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:16:54Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:19:34Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T09:19:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T09:23:07Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T09:24:15Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:26:20Z nitrowheels joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:30:46Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T09:40:12Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-04T09:44:06Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T09:48:02Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T09:49:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:51:49Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T09:53:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:53:59Z otwieracz: I've got another similiar question - how can I handle assertion error? 2017-07-04T09:54:09Z daemoz quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-04T09:54:14Z otwieracz: Because, what suprised me, it's also throwing simple-error. 2017-07-04T09:55:28Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-04T09:55:44Z otwieracz: Seems like I need to pass different type as a DATUM… 2017-07-04T09:59:59Z nitrowheels left #lisp 2017-07-04T10:01:33Z beach: Yes, the datum and arguments can be the name of a condition type and the initargs for that type. 2017-07-04T10:01:41Z beach: Just like for ERROR, WARNING, etc. 2017-07-04T10:08:31Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:15:16Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T10:16:19Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:18:16Z szmer joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:18:43Z fkec quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-04T10:21:25Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T10:38:42Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T10:39:18Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:41:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T10:43:45Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T10:44:46Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:45:54Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:51:56Z fkac quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-04T10:53:04Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:53:06Z fkac quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T10:54:59Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-04T10:55:13Z fkac quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T10:57:33Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:02:50Z michael_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:03:38Z Xof joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:03:40Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T11:04:11Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:05:48Z michael_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T11:07:40Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T11:09:39Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:10:26Z dim: how would you parse-integer but for floats? 2017-07-04T11:10:59Z loke`: dim: There is a library on QL called PARSE-FLOAT 2017-07-04T11:12:54Z dim: thx, having a look! 2017-07-04T11:15:41Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T11:17:05Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:17:06Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:17:27Z dim: and now wondering why I would have to parse a string that might contain either integers or floats when the source might be trustable after all (db3 files)... anyway 2017-07-04T11:21:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T11:33:46Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:34:23Z ots joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:37:53Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T11:38:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:39:39Z ots: hey. Is there a preferred css library for relatively new cl users? I want to insert css inline but cant judge which of the libraries (f.x. css-lite & cl-css) are good/mature/dead. general experiences? 2017-07-04T11:41:59Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T11:42:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:42:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-04T11:42:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:42:35Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:43:30Z axion: I would recommend LASS 2017-07-04T11:43:44Z jackdaniel: css-lite is a popular choice 2017-07-04T11:43:49Z axion: https://github.com/Shinmera/LASS 2017-07-04T11:44:18Z axion: Unless you like ignoring the DRY principle 2017-07-04T11:44:52Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T11:45:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:46:07Z easye: I kinda like the ability of CSS-LITE to not need to quote its argument unlike LASS. 2017-07-04T11:46:48Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:47:20Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:47:29Z axion: Well it is evaluated 2017-07-04T11:47:48Z axion: This is the key beind not repeating yourself with LASS 2017-07-04T11:48:04Z jackdaniel smells a holy war 2017-07-04T11:49:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T11:51:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:52:29Z stara joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:52:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T11:53:59Z stara: How compile file (Common Lisp) to .exe? 2017-07-04T11:54:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:54:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-04T11:54:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:55:56Z axion: The same way we told you before 2017-07-04T11:56:29Z stara: I didn't solve. 2017-07-04T11:57:40Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-04T11:58:51Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T11:59:52Z ots: axion & jackdaniels: ty. ill look into those two with your opinions in mind:) 2017-07-04T12:00:55Z stara: Whether in Lisp I can create console application? 2017-07-04T12:01:35Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:03:51Z nydel: i think cl-build or something? i'd just avoid it altogether if possible. 99.9% of .exe files should never have been compiled as far as i can tell 2017-07-04T12:04:43Z axion: UIOP:DUMP-IMAGE 2017-07-04T12:04:53Z jackdaniel: stara: check out https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php 2017-07-04T12:05:12Z jackdaniel: you'll have good synopsis definition abstraction and actual documentation how to do things 2017-07-04T12:06:13Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T12:11:49Z stara: In that case what can be created in common lisp? 2017-07-04T12:12:16Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T12:13:01Z jackdaniel: it's a general purpose programming language, so basically anything your computer is capable of 2017-07-04T12:13:14Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:15:29Z axion: Here is an example of something I made yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh9Cgj_BVj8 2017-07-04T12:15:55Z axion: Just a stupid little demo I've been working on :) 2017-07-04T12:18:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:19:10Z fkac is now known as fkuc 2017-07-04T12:21:16Z stara: Why it: 2017-07-04T12:21:18Z stara: sbcl --load my-program.lisp --load uiop --eval '(uiop/image:dump-image "my-program.exe" :executable t)' 2017-07-04T12:21:21Z stara: Not work? 2017-07-04T12:22:57Z jackdaniel: do you have file uiop there? 2017-07-04T12:24:06Z stara: Yes. 2017-07-04T12:24:19Z jackdaniel: what does it contain? 2017-07-04T12:24:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T12:24:30Z jackdaniel: what is the error message? 2017-07-04T12:25:14Z ots quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-04T12:25:29Z stara: The variable SBCL is unbound. 2017-07-04T12:25:29Z stara: [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE] 2017-07-04T12:26:08Z jackdaniel: do you know how repl works? 2017-07-04T12:26:30Z jackdaniel: you have pasted a shell command, while it seems you have typed it in the repl 2017-07-04T12:26:36Z stara: not completely 2017-07-04T12:27:38Z stara: I paste it to: slime-repl sbcl. 2017-07-04T12:28:58Z axion: I would recommend before continuing you at least read Practical Common Lisp - for free on the website. 2017-07-04T12:29:09Z axion: You would be doing yourself a huge favor in doing so 2017-07-04T12:29:42Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:29:54Z stara: I read a little. 2017-07-04T12:30:18Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T12:31:08Z axion: Read it all,and do all the practicals. 2017-07-04T12:31:28Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T12:31:47Z _death: in sbcl you can do (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "my-program.exe" :executable t :toplevel #'my-main-function) 2017-07-04T12:33:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:33:28Z _death: also, better do it without slime 2017-07-04T12:37:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:39:22Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-04T12:39:53Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T12:42:07Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:42:34Z stara: Cannot save core with multiple threads running. 2017-07-04T12:43:09Z axion: also, better do it without slime 2017-07-04T12:49:27Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T12:49:44Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-04T12:56:23Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T12:57:43Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:03:57Z nydel: it might be worth saying something like: i am running at least 10 commonlisp programs right now that are essential to my system's functioning and i have never compiled one of them to an executable. i.e. unless you have been assigned to create an executable you might do well to look at thinking of programming an interpreted language. 2017-07-04T13:04:05Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:04:31Z beach: What language is it that you call "interpreted"? 2017-07-04T13:04:53Z beach: Normally, whether something is interpreted or not is a property of the implementation and not of the language. 2017-07-04T13:05:38Z nydel: at the moment, beach ? commonlisp. in the context it seems like a beginner is trying to create an executable on account of a lack of familiarity with REPL conceptually. 2017-07-04T13:05:46Z nydel: just trying to be helpful 2017-07-04T13:07:16Z beach: I suggest you try to use the correct terminology, even if stara is a beginner. Using "interpreted" instead of "interactive" or "dynamic" may give the wrong idea, since "interpreted" typically implies "slow". 2017-07-04T13:07:58Z nydel: ah i see. noted & thank you kindly for the correction 2017-07-04T13:08:13Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T13:08:18Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-04T13:08:43Z dim: also your binary image includes to whole of SBCL/CCL/... and so is able to interpret and compile code at runtime 2017-07-04T13:09:27Z dim: one day I'll get back to fixing --upgrade-from path/to/updated/sources for pgloader, so that users are able to try a bugfix without having to consider the whole build environment 2017-07-04T13:10:43Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:12:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:14:05Z nydel: i need to better separate my ideas of commonlisp the language and commonlisp as my latest build of sbcl. it can become so practical to think only in terms of the latter that one forgets to equally value cl as a language. 2017-07-04T13:19:20Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:20:32Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:20:51Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:20:55Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:21:10Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:21:16Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:21:18Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:21:41Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:21:42Z himmAllRight quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T13:22:07Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:23:37Z fkuc: stara: Just for the record, some Linux distributions only have packages for single-threaded SBCL 2017-07-04T13:23:43Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:23:58Z fkuc: It's probably best to download the latest version if you haven't 2017-07-04T13:24:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:24:22Z stara: fkuc I know. 2017-07-04T13:24:55Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:30:33Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:31:10Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:34:38Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:34:49Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:35:34Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:35:49Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:37:37Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:39:09Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T13:43:25Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:49:37Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:50:25Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:51:08Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:51:24Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-04T13:56:38Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:58:56Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T13:59:27Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T13:59:41Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T13:59:41Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T13:59:58Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:00:37Z Jach[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T14:02:27Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:03:13Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T14:05:18Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:06:21Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:07:10Z peterhil quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2017-07-04T14:07:12Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:08:19Z peterhil joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:08:50Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:10:59Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T14:12:48Z aceluck quit 2017-07-04T14:13:28Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T14:16:23Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:16:23Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:16:24Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:16:24Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:16:24Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:17:27Z stara quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-04T14:19:32Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T14:21:16Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:21:53Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-04T14:25:17Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:25:49Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T14:28:07Z nopf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T14:29:53Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T14:31:09Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T14:32:43Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:35:51Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:37:10Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T14:38:24Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:40:03Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T14:41:04Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:42:02Z jackdaniel: it seems that Polos managed to run EQL5 on Android: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android 2017-07-04T14:48:44Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-04T14:52:54Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-04T14:59:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T15:01:37Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T15:19:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:19:38Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:20:47Z pjb: Yay Polos! 2017-07-04T15:22:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:25:57Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T15:26:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T15:27:02Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T15:31:26Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:36:37Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-04T15:36:59Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:38:08Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T15:42:27Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:43:57Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:45:40Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:52:51Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:54:14Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-07-04T15:57:35Z nikkal joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:00:13Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:05:36Z serviteur is now known as testttt 2017-07-04T16:06:02Z testttt is now known as serviteur` 2017-07-04T16:06:30Z serviteur` is now known as serviteur 2017-07-04T16:08:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-04T16:08:31Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:09:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:12:27Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:14:27Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:16:19Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T16:17:34Z let42 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:17:41Z let42 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T16:20:43Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:21:43Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T16:21:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-04T16:24:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:24:23Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T16:24:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:25:06Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:25:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:25:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-04T16:25:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:27:32Z teggi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T16:32:28Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T16:33:05Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:33:44Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:33:53Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:36:27Z circ-user-hQnOH joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:36:59Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T16:38:03Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T16:39:25Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:40:56Z circ-user-hQnOH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T16:41:40Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:44:12Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:45:46Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:45:48Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:48:39Z nikkal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T16:50:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:52:25Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:52:41Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:55:58Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:56:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-04T16:59:10Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:02:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-04T17:05:22Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:05:44Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:06:56Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T17:13:05Z keviv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T17:14:06Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:14:11Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:14:59Z __g_k__1_w_m__s_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:15:12Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:15:16Z __g_k__1_w_m__s_ left #lisp 2017-07-04T17:15:48Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:17:08Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T17:18:42Z phoe: This is great news! 2017-07-04T17:19:58Z keviv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T17:21:29Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:25:28Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:25:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T17:26:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T17:27:46Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:28:33Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:29:44Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:32:01Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T17:38:26Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T17:38:50Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:40:43Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T17:41:48Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:42:20Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:46:28Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:47:13Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:52:12Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:52:41Z teggi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T17:53:28Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:53:44Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T17:55:37Z nopf joined #lisp 2017-07-04T17:57:45Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T18:03:16Z flavio81 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T18:08:28Z Ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T18:11:03Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T18:12:01Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T18:20:36Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T18:23:04Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-04T18:24:17Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-04T18:25:30Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T18:34:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-04T18:37:20Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-04T18:45:37Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T18:51:08Z ssake joined #lisp 2017-07-04T18:52:32Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:03:16Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T19:07:32Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:17:34Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:20:45Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:24:46Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:31:24Z __paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:34:25Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T19:36:54Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T19:37:21Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T19:38:52Z circ-user-OrdjI joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:40:42Z circ-user-OrdjI quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T19:40:46Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:46:51Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T19:49:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T19:49:47Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:50:21Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T19:51:21Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:52:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:55:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-04T19:56:08Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T19:59:46Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T20:00:47Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:01:35Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:02:12Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T20:02:24Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:03:08Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:07:25Z procl0 quit (Quit: ZzzZz) 2017-07-04T20:09:06Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T20:13:49Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T20:15:32Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:20:21Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:23:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:26:36Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:27:21Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:32:45Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:37:15Z fouric1 is now known as fouric 2017-07-04T20:42:03Z broccolistem quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-04T20:42:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T20:43:02Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T20:46:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-04T20:47:28Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-04T20:54:28Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T20:55:15Z lanu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T20:55:41Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T20:57:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T20:59:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:00:16Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:00:40Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:01:45Z oleksiyp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T21:04:20Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:04:23Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-04T21:04:45Z notbarton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T21:07:04Z varuaa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T21:17:29Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T21:23:55Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:25:53Z szmer quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds) 2017-07-04T21:26:43Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T21:30:11Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:30:17Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T21:34:16Z happy_gnu quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T21:34:21Z Karunamon|2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T21:39:12Z szmer joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:44:16Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T21:47:33Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:48:44Z varuaa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T21:49:06Z krwq: is there a way to measure time with accuracy of at least 0.1ms? 2017-07-04T21:50:03Z krwq: get-internal-time seems to be able to handle only up to 1ms 2017-07-04T21:50:36Z happy_gnu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T21:51:23Z p_l: krwq: might be platform specific 2017-07-04T21:51:28Z krwq: raspberry pi? 2017-07-04T21:51:36Z p_l: (hell, that might require CPU pinning and TSC-like stuff) 2017-07-04T21:52:46Z krwq: i'm trying to control speed of the stepper motor fairly acurrately and i can only use sleep right now which is quite annoying 2017-07-04T21:53:31Z p_l: krwq: I recommend a) looking into efficient syscall calling b) read man 7 time 2017-07-04T21:53:52Z p_l: there are High-Resolution Timers provided by linux 2017-07-04T21:56:26Z krwq: p_l, isn't 7 Objects? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm 2017-07-04T21:56:37Z p_l: krwq: I meant linux manual :) 2017-07-04T21:56:40Z krwq: this looks promising http://www.raspberry-projects.com/pi/programming-in-c/timing/clock_gettime-for-acurate-timing 2017-07-04T21:56:46Z p_l: section 7, time 2017-07-04T21:58:16Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T21:59:08Z krwq: thanks p_l, I'll do some more cffi, I wish there was something portable 2017-07-04T21:59:21Z p_l: krwq: high-res timers usually aren't 2017-07-04T21:59:35Z happy_gnu quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-04T21:59:52Z p_l: might want to look into non-consing code to run inside (without-interrupts) block 2017-07-04T22:00:31Z krwq: microseconds are fairly slow for 900MHz processor 2017-07-04T22:01:34Z happy_gnu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:01:42Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T22:01:48Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:01:51Z p_l: krwq: when the standard were written, 900MHz was a song of the future 2017-07-04T22:01:59Z p_l: then you need to include all the overheads etc. 2017-07-04T22:02:18Z krwq: p_l will look into that when I notice some hickups 2017-07-04T22:03:57Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:04:07Z krwq: btw, should we update the standard perhaps? 2017-07-04T22:04:20Z krwq: would make life easier a bit 2017-07-04T22:05:08Z flavio81: krwq: if you want to control a stepper motor, it would be easier to have an Arduino board do all the timing and control, and then interface that board to your PC (under lisp) 2017-07-04T22:05:35Z krwq: i already control it from my pc 2017-07-04T22:05:35Z flavio81: krwq: it will make subsequent things easier, if you need to interface with the outside world 2017-07-04T22:05:43Z krwq: pi has wi-fi 2017-07-04T22:05:54Z krwq: im connecting with swank 2017-07-04T22:06:31Z krwq: not sure if this is what you meant 2017-07-04T22:06:54Z flavio81: krwq: then CFFI is the answer if you already have a C call that will get you the resolution you want 2017-07-04T22:07:38Z krwq: checking it, haven't got that much experience with cffi, only did simple calls so far, no structs :P 2017-07-04T22:07:44Z pjb: flavio81: you're already running CL on RaspBerryPi, driving the motors with GPIO! 2017-07-04T22:07:46Z pjb: ;-) 2017-07-04T22:08:40Z krwq: what's your project flavio81? 2017-07-04T22:08:46Z krwq: on pi 2017-07-04T22:09:14Z flavio81: pjb: no, i don't use any raspberry pi. I'm just making suggestions. 2017-07-04T22:09:43Z krwq: swank wasn't working out of the box, had to disable IPv6 2017-07-04T22:09:55Z flavio81: if i was going to need to control a stepper motor and needed real-time and precision, then i would use an arduino, or look a way to install a real-time OS on a raspberry 2017-07-04T22:10:21Z flavio81: because otherwise the raspberry will behave like a normal computer, with an OS that manages the threads and you don't have any guarantee of the timings etc 2017-07-04T22:10:49Z flavio81: and since there are so many arduino boards ("shields") available for all kinds of stuff including of course motor control, then it should be easy 2017-07-04T22:10:59Z krwq: stepper is already running, trying to get more control now :) I'm adding logic to keep an eye on timing now, that's why I need to measure time 2017-07-04T22:11:29Z krwq: i already played with atmega in the past, decided to run lisp on pi and will finish it :P 2017-07-04T22:11:35Z flavio81: pjb: there is "lispm" on HN who has a personal webpage that is hosted on a raspberry Pi, and running CL for the server 2017-07-04T22:11:38Z nonconveniens joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:11:48Z flavio81: krwq: ok ! 2017-07-04T22:12:24Z flavio81: http://lispm.de 2017-07-04T22:12:30Z flavio81: that's on a Raspberry Pi 2017-07-04T22:12:51Z krwq: not changing any technologies anymore, changing techs has got me stuck for too long right now 2017-07-04T22:13:24Z flavio81: ok 2017-07-04T22:13:30Z pjb: I would start by making some computation about the timings and lattencies of the linux kernel, including linux with the real-time option. 2017-07-04T22:14:04Z pjb: I wouldn't be surprized if with rt linux you could implement a driver to do the low-level precise timing required to drive hardware. 2017-07-04T22:14:06Z flavio81: but krwq has a point: if his machine is 900mHz, then 0.1ms is a loooong time 2017-07-04T22:14:39Z p_l: except modern CPUs have such things as pipeline stalls 2017-07-04T22:14:42Z pjb: Indeed. Even without RT. 2017-07-04T22:14:46Z p_l: and memory accesses are long 2017-07-04T22:14:52Z pjb: As long as you don't have swap memory… 2017-07-04T22:14:54Z flavio81: 90,000 cycles in 0.1msec 2017-07-04T22:15:22Z flavio81: true. No idea of the speed of memory I/O on the RPI 2017-07-04T22:15:47Z krwq: i was able to get 20kHz sine on 1Mhz proc, I will manage to 10kHz on 900MHz :P 2017-07-04T22:15:49Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:15:59Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T22:17:41Z p_l: flavio81: just accessing L1 gives you 30k cycles instead of 90k 2017-07-04T22:18:21Z p_l: RAM access with no misses in TLB or anything is ~56 cycles 2017-07-04T22:18:33Z p_l: 116 if there was a primary TLB miss 2017-07-04T22:18:48Z p_l: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-gen-1/memory-hierarchy/ 2017-07-04T22:18:55Z p_l: mind you, that's first raspberry pi 2017-07-04T22:20:08Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-04T22:23:04Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T22:24:07Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-04T22:24:52Z flavio81: krwq: this is because you have to deal with the burden of the operating system, instead of being able to directly access the hardware (as one would do on Arduino or on a microcontroller or even on a home computer like Atari 800, Sinclair ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64, etc). 2017-07-04T22:25:16Z nonconveniens: super beginner question: i wrote a function that returns a list (in this case: "(1 2 . 3)") but when i pass it to (length (my-func)), i get an error: the value 3 is not of type list. is my function not returning a list that I can pass to length? 2017-07-04T22:25:19Z flavio81: you could easily output a 20KHz wave using an Atari 800 with it's 1.79MHz processor 2017-07-04T22:25:46Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T22:25:56Z flavio81: (1 2 . 3) is not a list, syntax error 2017-07-04T22:26:19Z flavio81: dot operator creates a cons cell between a pair of atoms (or lists or whatever) 2017-07-04T22:26:21Z nonconveniens: flavio81 alright i kind of figured (very new to this) 2017-07-04T22:26:52Z nonconveniens: yeah, what does that dot mean, and how would i make it only (1 2 3)? 2017-07-04T22:27:27Z nonconveniens: the line that's making the list is (defvar begin '(1 2)) (append begin (apply '+ (nthcdr ( - (length begin) 2) begin))) 2017-07-04T22:27:32Z flavio81: ahaa... 2017-07-04T22:27:33Z flavio81: ok, 2017-07-04T22:28:01Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:28:04Z nonconveniens: basically im appending a value to the end of a list but it throws that dot in there 2017-07-04T22:28:17Z nonconveniens: when i do (append list (new-thing-for-list)) 2017-07-04T22:28:53Z flavio81: append does not modify any list, it creates a new list. now, i'm not sure what do you want to do 2017-07-04T22:29:11Z nonconveniens: ah i see 2017-07-04T22:29:25Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:29:33Z nonconveniens: what would i use to modify a list instead of create a new one? 2017-07-04T22:29:34Z flavio81: by the way, something very important 2017-07-04T22:29:44Z flavio81: because you Do need to know what is a cons cell before using Lisp 2017-07-04T22:29:55Z flavio81: nonconveniens: the basic structure in lisp is the cons cell 2017-07-04T22:30:10Z nonconveniens: right 2017-07-04T22:30:19Z flavio81: cons cells have two elements, the left and the right, which are the CAR and the CDR 2017-07-04T22:30:23Z flavio81: (1. 2) is a cons cell 2017-07-04T22:30:27Z flavio81: the CAR is 1, the CDR is 2 2017-07-04T22:30:41Z flavio81: now, all LISTS in lisp are internally represented by cons cells in truth 2017-07-04T22:30:56Z flavio81: so '(1 2 3) is internally: '(1 . (2 . (3)) 2017-07-04T22:30:57Z flavio81: get it? 2017-07-04T22:31:00Z nonconveniens: alright that makes sense 2017-07-04T22:31:12Z flavio81: '(1 2 3 4) is '(1 . (2 . (3 . 4) ) ) 2017-07-04T22:31:24Z flavio81: so for example say '(1 2 3 4) is your variable *x* 2017-07-04T22:31:29Z flavio81: CAR *x* is 1 2017-07-04T22:31:30Z nonconveniens: i appreciate that, that makes sense 2017-07-04T22:31:34Z flavio81: CDR *x* is (2 3 4) 2017-07-04T22:31:48Z nonconveniens: (gotta go but i'll be back hopefully in a couple hours) 2017-07-04T22:32:02Z flavio81: if you don't want to say "car" and "cdr" you can use "first" and "rest", functions that do exactly the same 2017-07-04T22:32:26Z flavio81: okey, bye ! 2017-07-04T22:32:30Z aeth: CL style generally prefers car and cdr because you can compose it like cadr and cdar and caddr. 2017-07-04T22:32:44Z aeth: Other Lisps vary with what they prefer but this is a CL channel. 2017-07-04T22:33:33Z flavio81: i prefer to use "first, rest, last, second, third" whenever possible. Those are also part of the ANSI Common Lisp standard. 2017-07-04T22:33:45Z d4ryus4 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:33:52Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T22:34:24Z aeth: Yes, but "and" and "or" are part of C and C++, but people prefer && and || there. 2017-07-04T22:34:35Z flavio81: good point 2017-07-04T22:34:38Z aeth: Sometimes the less readable thing is the more common thing. 2017-07-04T22:34:58Z flavio81: are you sure and and or are there in C ? 2017-07-04T22:35:08Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T22:35:13Z flavio81: not in kerningan&ritchie 2017-07-04T22:35:49Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:35:51Z aeth: I had this discussion earlier this year, either in #lisp or #lispgames and I wasn't 100% sure which (C or C++) and it doesn't even highlight in C in emacs iirc... 2017-07-04T22:35:57Z aeth: but iirc it turns out to be in both languages 2017-07-04T22:35:57Z nonconveniens quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T22:36:21Z flavio81: aeth: must have had been added fairly recently (1999? C99 ?) 2017-07-04T22:36:49Z d4ryus3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T22:37:12Z flavio81: but I agree with you, it's a cultural thing 2017-07-04T22:37:41Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operators_in_C_and_C%2B%2B#Logical_operators 2017-07-04T22:38:06Z aeth: A footnote says that it requires this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_alternative_tokens 2017-07-04T22:38:11Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:38:15Z aeth: 1995. 2017-07-04T22:38:17Z p_l: aeth: are and/or short-circuiting? 2017-07-04T22:38:19Z krwq: how do you write defcstruct with time_t where time_t has no constant size across platforms?? 2017-07-04T22:38:30Z p_l: krwq: cffi-grovel 2017-07-04T22:38:53Z p_l: aeth: ahh, they are 2017-07-04T22:39:15Z aeth: I do prefer languages that have words over symbols except for basic arithmetic, like CL. 2017-07-04T22:39:39Z p_l: and sometimes one needs to write || as ??!??! :/ 2017-07-04T22:39:44Z aeth: Iirc, some old Lisps used words instead of +, -, /, *, etc., but CL doesn't even have those for backwards compatibility 2017-07-04T22:39:48Z krwq: p_l thanks! 2017-07-04T22:40:38Z p_l: writing C code where blocks are delimited by ??< and ??> is weird :) 2017-07-04T22:40:50Z aeth: Cleverly, CL uses the old foo-equal for case-insensitive operations, like char-equal and string-equal 2017-07-04T22:42:20Z aeth: I think the right balance, as seen in many if not most modern languages, is to use symbols instead of words rarely, for things where there's no or almost no (in the case of =) confusion. 2017-07-04T22:43:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T22:44:13Z flavio81: p_l in C, && and || are always short-circuiting 2017-07-04T22:44:27Z flavio81: p_l: in Common Lisp, they are shortcircuiting, but I don't know if this is always 2017-07-04T22:44:34Z p_l: flavio81: yes, my question came from not knowing if they were | or || 2017-07-04T22:44:57Z p_l: flavio81: the macro ones (and, or) are always short-circuiting 2017-07-04T22:46:04Z flavio81: p_l yes, looks weird, but so looks weird, in Common Lisp, things like #.#+sbcl(do-this) #.#-sbcl(do that) 2017-07-04T22:46:46Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T22:46:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T22:47:33Z flavio81: p_l: note that | is a bitwise operator in C, while || is a logical operator 2017-07-04T22:47:52Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T22:56:05Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:00:28Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T23:01:24Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:02:14Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:03:02Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T23:03:08Z gremly quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T23:05:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:07:46Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:09:48Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T23:09:56Z nonconveniens joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:10:25Z flavio81 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T23:10:49Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T23:12:56Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:19:28Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-04T23:24:43Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:25:41Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:29:44Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-04T23:36:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-04T23:40:46Z ParrotSec_ joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:40:48Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T23:46:24Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T23:47:24Z nonconveniens quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T23:50:27Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T23:51:14Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-04T23:55:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T00:00:01Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T00:07:08Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-05T00:11:29Z krwq: ok, will need to check that without-interrupts. on desktop I can get times quite accurately, on pi it most of the time works fine but once in a while I get hickups around 0.8s.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/350050 2017-07-05T00:11:50Z szmer quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-05T00:13:07Z krwq: either way - i was surprised i was able to write the whole expression in a single loop form 2017-07-05T00:15:07Z krwq: does cffi:with-foreign-object allocate? 2017-07-05T00:15:39Z krwq: if yes then that could explain the hickup 2017-07-05T00:15:53Z krwq: since i've allocated few million objects... 2017-07-05T00:17:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T00:23:06Z Bike: yeah, it does, though i think ideally it's a stack allocation. 2017-07-05T00:24:11Z krwq: Bike: how can I check that? 2017-07-05T00:24:25Z Bike: whether it's a stack allocation? 2017-07-05T00:24:31Z krwq: yes 2017-07-05T00:24:40Z Bike: i guess macroexpand it and see what the implementation is doing. 2017-07-05T00:25:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-05T00:28:46Z krwq: I'm seeing something like this, so I assume this is stackalloc? (SB-ALIEN-INTERNALS:MAKE-LOCAL-ALIEN '#) 2017-07-05T00:30:30Z krwq: is there some kind of profiler I could use for that? I have a hard time reading this macroexpanded code 2017-07-05T00:31:36Z Bike: i don't know. maybe the sbcl manual has detailed stuff on profiler options. 2017-07-05T00:39:13Z ski joined #lisp 2017-07-05T00:43:22Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-05T00:47:59Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-05T00:51:42Z lanu quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T00:52:12Z ParrotSec_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T00:53:33Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-05T00:58:13Z Ravana joined #lisp 2017-07-05T01:00:53Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-05T01:11:04Z jamtho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T01:11:42Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-05T01:15:35Z krwq: ok, seems like spikes are coming from GC http://paste.lisp.org/display/350052 2017-07-05T01:24:11Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-05T01:43:25Z nonconveniens joined #lisp 2017-07-05T01:46:21Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-05T01:47:27Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T01:48:04Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T01:52:58Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-05T01:53:12Z nonconveniens quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T01:58:13Z gremly joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:01:32Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:01:37Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T02:09:16Z bugrum joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:11:10Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:18:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:20:24Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T02:22:24Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T02:22:28Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T02:22:52Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T02:24:51Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T02:27:58Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T02:30:07Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T02:37:15Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:42:13Z P01yM0rp4 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T02:43:40Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:52:52Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:56:09Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T02:57:57Z nonconveniens joined #lisp 2017-07-05T02:58:57Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-05T02:59:39Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:00:22Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-05T03:04:17Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T03:04:17Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T03:05:37Z nonconveniens quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T03:09:21Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:11:24Z vtomole: morning beach 2017-07-05T03:11:52Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T03:15:17Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:16:24Z beach: vtomole: Any progress on packages? 2017-07-05T03:16:54Z vtomole: A little. Still reading spec 2017-07-05T03:17:07Z beach: Good plan. 2017-07-05T03:17:27Z beach: Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions. 2017-07-05T03:17:35Z nonconveniens joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:18:29Z beach: I remember that the description of packages in the Common Lisp HyperSpec was hard to understand. 2017-07-05T03:18:40Z phosphoros joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:19:35Z vtomole: The hyperspec in general is difficult. But i would solve a lot more bugs quickly if i was able to read it. 2017-07-05T03:20:03Z beach: Oh, you will get used to it. 2017-07-05T03:20:40Z beach: The problem is that it was not meant for people to learn the language. It was meant to be read by people who write Common Lisp systems. 2017-07-05T03:21:51Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:22:00Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T03:23:04Z nowhere_man: Hey guys, I"m struggling with Heroku buildpacks for CL 2017-07-05T03:23:22Z vtomole: nowhere_man: Whats up? 2017-07-05T03:23:26Z nowhere_man: basically none seems to actually work, are they unused or am I doing something utterly wrong 2017-07-05T03:23:37Z vtomole: I use it 2017-07-05T03:23:51Z nowhere_man: which one? 2017-07-05T03:24:25Z nowhere_man: I just tried https://github.com/orivej/heroku-buildpack-cl before trying the one he forked 2017-07-05T03:24:47Z nowhere_man: But if I used their suggested line for Procfile, SBCL doesn't find its core, for example! 2017-07-05T03:25:22Z vtomole: I built a website for mezzano last year with this:https://github.com/vtomole/MezzanoWebsite 2017-07-05T03:26:48Z vtomole: You can fork or clone it and play around with it 2017-07-05T03:27:13Z vtomole: The README still has the original buildpack:https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-buildpack-cl 2017-07-05T03:27:20Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-05T03:27:46Z vtomole: nowhere_man: This is exactly what you need:https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-cl-example 2017-07-05T03:27:50Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T03:29:31Z vtomole: beach: Are these name (defpackage and friends) defined already? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_aa.htm 2017-07-05T03:29:47Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T03:31:58Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:32:01Z sfa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-05T03:32:18Z nonconveniens: question: what exactly is an &aux specifier? i'm looking at the hyperspec but i'm a bit confused 2017-07-05T03:32:45Z nowhere_man: vtomole: I know those first buildpacks, but my app is built a Ningle, not aserve or hunchentoot 2017-07-05T03:32:59Z nonconveniens: is putting &aux ____ in the parameter list for a function just a way to define a variable to be used in the function without requiring it to be provided as a parameter with the function call? 2017-07-05T03:33:15Z Bike: nonconveniens: it lets you define variable bindings based on expressions rather than arguments. it's like having a let* at the top of the function. 2017-07-05T03:33:33Z Bike: so yes, if you just have "&aux foo bar" there will be bindings for foo and bar (to nil) 2017-07-05T03:34:22Z nonconveniens: and just like let*, it binds variables in order 2017-07-05T03:34:25Z nonconveniens: ? 2017-07-05T03:35:01Z White_Flame: one way of looking at lisp is as a set of lambda scopes. LET can be defined in terms of lambda parameters, as in (let ((foo bar)) (operate foo)) -> (funcall (lambda (foo) (operate foo)) bar) 2017-07-05T03:35:16Z beach: vtomole: Yes, those symbols are names of operators and variables that the standard defines already. 2017-07-05T03:35:24Z White_Flame: so &aux is one way of modeling everything with lambda 2017-07-05T03:35:51Z nonconveniens: i see White_Flame 2017-07-05T03:35:52Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:36:06Z White_Flame: but I don't think I've ever seen &aux in the wild 2017-07-05T03:36:09Z beach: nonconveniens: Yes, like LET*. 2017-07-05T03:36:15Z vtomole: nowhere_man: So you did "heroku config:add CL_WEBSERVER=Nigle" What error are you getting? 2017-07-05T03:36:27Z White_Flame: remember that Common Lisp was a standardization of various industrial-use Lisps from back in the 1980s, when things were a lot different style-wise 2017-07-05T03:36:50Z White_Flame: so there's certainly some legacy in there 2017-07-05T03:37:16Z nonconveniens: I ask because I'm trying to do the Project Euler problems and I saw one solution that used (defun fun-name (a b &aux (something)) ... ) 2017-07-05T03:37:40Z beach: nonconveniens: It saves a line of code in case that happens to be important. 2017-07-05T03:37:56Z nonconveniens: might not have been a project euler solution probably something else, but nonetheless i just figured i'd ask because i was a bit confused 2017-07-05T03:38:28Z beach: nonconveniens: Did you find a solution to your dotted-list problem? 2017-07-05T03:38:29Z White_Flame: btw, the parallel nature of the LET variables (let ((a x) (b cant-see-a)) ...) makes sense when you view it as (lambda (a b) ...) that gets passed in its parameters. All the parameters are calculated before the lambda is invoked, and all are bound to the lambda's parameters in parallel 2017-07-05T03:39:34Z beach: White_Flame: That is true only if your function has only required parameters. 2017-07-05T03:39:40Z nonconveniens: White_Flame makes sense 2017-07-05T03:40:00Z White_Flame: beach: sure, converting LET to LAMBDA translates the LET variables into required parameters 2017-07-05T03:40:06Z nonconveniens: beach I gained some understanding but I have yet to figure out how to do what i need correctly 2017-07-05T03:40:12Z beach: White_Flame: Right. Just checking. 2017-07-05T03:40:23Z vtomole: beach: How do you search for functions in the repo? Just by using grep? 2017-07-05T03:40:27Z beach: nonconveniens: Wrap the last expression in (list ...) 2017-07-05T03:40:48Z beach: nonconveniens: As in (append bla1 bla2) => (append bla1 (list bla2)) 2017-07-05T03:41:07Z beach: vtomole: Depends on your criteria for searching. 2017-07-05T03:41:13Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T03:41:29Z beach: vtomole: If you want everything related to packages, then go to the "packages dictionary". 2017-07-05T03:41:44Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_packag.htm 2017-07-05T03:42:10Z nonconveniens: beach: i will give that a shot i believe that will fix it 2017-07-05T03:42:13Z beach: vtomole: If you know the name, or the prefix of a name, then go to the symbol index. 2017-07-05T03:42:25Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 2017-07-05T03:42:31Z vtomole: beach: These docs are very good. 2017-07-05T03:42:40Z beach: vtomole: The permuted index is sometimes helpful as well. 2017-07-05T03:43:20Z beach: vtomole: Yes, the standard is a very good specification. But it makes very little effort to be pedagogical. 2017-07-05T03:43:35Z nonconveniens: beach: that worked! so, when i was writing (append begin (apply '+ (...))), the second form that's being appended is adding a dot? 2017-07-05T03:43:58Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T03:43:59Z beach: nonconveniens: Your problem is that the last argument to APPEND was not a list. It was an atom. 2017-07-05T03:44:11Z nonconveniens: ahhhhh 2017-07-05T03:44:16Z beach: nonconveniens: When append is given an atom as its last argument, it creates a dotted list. 2017-07-05T03:44:32Z nonconveniens: okay that makes sense 2017-07-05T03:44:37Z nonconveniens: thank you very much 2017-07-05T03:44:40Z vtomole: beach: I can't find those symbols in the SICL package directory though. Like defpackage 2017-07-05T03:45:00Z beach: vtomole: That's because they have not been written yet. That's your job. :) 2017-07-05T03:45:54Z vtomole: beach: Ok that was my question 2017-07-05T03:46:10Z krwq quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T03:46:25Z vtomole: beach: You have defined some of them though, like make-package 2017-07-05T03:46:35Z beach: nonconveniens: Sure. And, it is not quite correct to say "it adds a dot". The dot itself is just a way of printing it. If you have a list that prints like that, it means that the last CDR of the last CONS cell is an atom other than NIL. 2017-07-05T03:46:43Z beach: vtomole: Correct. 2017-07-05T03:47:37Z nonconveniens: and when i'm 2017-07-05T03:47:54Z nonconveniens: appending an atom, then it's not NIL, and the dot prints as such 2017-07-05T03:48:31Z beach: nonconveniens: Not quite the right way of expressing things. There is no dot in the list, despite its name. 2017-07-05T03:48:56Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-05T03:49:32Z beach: nonconveniens: More like this: When the last CDR of the last CONS cell is an atom other than NIL, then we say that it's a "dotted list". When such a list is printed, the Common Lisp print function shows it with a dot preceding that atom. 2017-07-05T03:49:58Z nonconveniens: right, but the dot isn't an actual value in the list 2017-07-05T03:50:13Z beach: nonconveniens: When the CDR of the last CONS cell is NIL, it is called a "proper list". Then the printer does not print a dot, and it does not print the NIL. 2017-07-05T03:50:13Z nonconveniens: it's just shown to represent it being a dotted list 2017-07-05T03:50:50Z White_Flame: a dot basically signifies a linked list pointer 2017-07-05T03:50:52Z beach: nonconveniens: Correct. The "external representation" contains a dot. 2017-07-05T03:51:08Z nonconveniens: alrighty that makes more sense 2017-07-05T03:51:18Z beach: nonconveniens: "representation" is another overloaded word. 2017-07-05T03:52:12Z White_Flame: so (1 . 3) has a 3 for its next linked cell, instead of a "proper" cons cell for constructing lists 2017-07-05T03:52:25Z White_Flame: but it's just a 2-tuple that could be used for anything 2017-07-05T03:52:32Z White_Flame: lists are just a common usage scenario 2017-07-05T03:52:46Z nonconveniens: right right 2017-07-05T03:56:02Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:00:20Z nowhere_man: actually my problem comes from Heroku running the slug in another directory than where it was compiled 2017-07-05T04:00:38Z nowhere_man: and some QL files use *compile-file-truename*) 2017-07-05T04:01:21Z vtomole: nowhere_man: What directory is it running in and where is it compiled? 2017-07-05T04:02:10Z nowhere_man: it's compiled while in /app/tmp/cache/ but run in /app 2017-07-05T04:02:16Z nowhere_man: maybe just a symlink… 2017-07-05T04:06:55Z vtomole: That's how mine works too. I think. Its just the way asdf compiles files.Always does them in the cache... 2017-07-05T04:11:46Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T04:14:23Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:14:59Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:15:49Z vtomole: beach: How much can you deviate from the spec? The spec says that packagep is implemented as a function, but you implemented it as a method. 2017-07-05T04:16:12Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:16:41Z beach: vtomole: Actually, it is implemented as a generic function with a few methods on it. The spec in general allows any function to be implemented as a generic function. 2017-07-05T04:17:19Z beach: vtomole: Similarly, it allows for a "system class" to be implemented as a built-in class OR as a standard class. 2017-07-05T04:17:41Z vtomole: Theres a difference? 2017-07-05T04:18:19Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-05T04:18:44Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png 2017-07-05T04:19:02Z vtomole: beach: Nice! 2017-07-05T04:19:11Z beach: Thanks! :) 2017-07-05T04:19:45Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T04:19:48Z vtomole: beach: Undefined functions that i'll add on the TODO in the README:FIND-PACKAGE,FIND-ALL-SYMBOLS,IMPORT,LIST-ALL-PACKAGES,RENAME-PACKAGE,SHADOW,DELETE-PACKAGE,WITH-PACKAGE-ITERATOR,UNEXPORT,UNINTERN,IN-PACKAGE,UNUSE-PACKAGE,USE-PACKAGE,DEFPACKAGE,DO-ALL-SYMBOLS,PACKAGE-NICKNAMES,*PACKAGE*,PACKAGE-ERROR,PACKAGE-ERROR-PACKAGE 2017-07-05T04:20:37Z beach: vtomole: We can remove a few. Let me tell you why... 2017-07-05T04:21:10Z beach: For example, LIST-ALL-PACKAGES is not a function on packages. It is a function that works on the environment. 2017-07-05T04:21:57Z beach: Similarly, *PACKAGE* is a symbol in the environment and is not directly related to the implementation of packages. 2017-07-05T04:22:31Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:22:56Z vtomole: For sure. That's just a defparameter *package* or something... 2017-07-05T04:23:01Z beach: Same thing with FIND-PACKAGE. It's an environment function. 2017-07-05T04:23:07Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-05T04:23:24Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:24:30Z beach: In that figure, classes with red names are standard classes. Classes with blue names are funcallable standard classes, and classes with green names are built-in classes. 2017-07-05T04:28:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:29:06Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:32:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:34:46Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:39:28Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T04:45:54Z flavio81 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T04:46:33Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T04:48:37Z vtomole: beach: If you scroll down a bit i have the list:https://github.com/vtomole/SICL/tree/master/Code/Package/SICL-Specific 2017-07-05T04:48:57Z vtomole: beach: I will go in order, so i will start with find-package 2017-07-05T05:05:54Z flavio81 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T05:07:55Z ots joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:08:36Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:10:58Z ots: Hey. I'm making a repost from #clnoobs, hope you don't mind (it is very quite there atm). What would be the simplest example of how to assign the value of a variable in CL to a variable in javascript using parenscript? I have trouble getting the examples in the tutorial to work, so I wonder what a minimal example would be (or am I misunderstanding, can it be done?). 2017-07-05T05:12:08Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:12:37Z PuercoPop: I'm clearly mixing up the stages of evalution here. Can someone explain to me how can I refer to symbol pass to a macro. This is what I'm trying to do http://paste.lisp.org/+7I3V 2017-07-05T05:12:42Z krwq: ots: check out this guy's repo: https://github.com/clarkeaa/jsresume/blob/master/fish.lisp 2017-07-05T05:12:50Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-05T05:13:04Z krwq: ots: generated js: https://github.com/clarkeaa/jsresume/blob/master/fish.js 2017-07-05T05:13:13Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T05:13:24Z krwq: ots: here is how he compiles: https://github.com/clarkeaa/jsresume/blob/master/compile.lisp 2017-07-05T05:13:33Z krwq: ots: most complete example i found so far 2017-07-05T05:13:45Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:14:12Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:14:24Z beach: vtomole: FIND-PACKAGE is not a package function, really. It is an environment function. 2017-07-05T05:14:45Z beach: vtomole: I suggest you remove DELETE-PACKAGE as well. 2017-07-05T05:15:10Z ots: krwq: woa. 2017-07-05T05:15:27Z krwq: ots: open side by side lisp and js that's self explanatory 2017-07-05T05:15:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T05:15:40Z ots: that is really something. 2017-07-05T05:16:21Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:17:17Z ots: krwq: that's even better than I was expecting. you just had that on you? :) Anyway, TYVM! 2017-07-05T05:17:52Z krwq: ots: i found it few days ago by accident and bookmarked :P 2017-07-05T05:18:02Z vtomole: beach: how i can i tell between environment functions? Compared to here:http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_enviro.htm 2017-07-05T05:18:25Z beach: Yeah, not that. :) 2017-07-05T05:18:36Z beach: They use "environment" differently. 2017-07-05T05:19:21Z beach: vtomole: Hint: find-package does not do anything to any package, so it is not a package function. But it searches the global environment for a package with a particular name. 2017-07-05T05:19:55Z beach: vtomole: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm 2017-07-05T05:20:12Z beach: vtomole: That page ↑ is where they talk about environments. 2017-07-05T05:20:45Z ots: well, I'd never find that on my own :P Cool 2017-07-05T05:22:54Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T05:23:11Z beach: vtomole: In SICL, every Common Lisp function that operates on the implicit global environment (like FIND-PACKAGE) trampolines to a corresponding generic function that take an explicit SICL first-class global environment. See for example Code/Environment/generic-functions.lisp 2017-07-05T05:23:43Z beach: vtomole: Notice this definition: (defgeneric find-package (name environment)) 2017-07-05T05:25:35Z beach: vtomole: I suggest you concentrate on the functions that actually operate on some package. 2017-07-05T05:27:01Z vtomole: How about find-all-symbols? 2017-07-05T05:27:25Z beach: That's a tricky one... 2017-07-05T05:27:53Z beach: Yeah, also an environment function. 2017-07-05T05:28:57Z beach: It just traverses every package in the system and finds the symbol in each package. So the package function behind all this is the one that, given a package, returns the symbols of that package. 2017-07-05T05:29:04Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T05:29:40Z vtomole: So they are not that many package functions then, most lisp functions are just environment ones? 2017-07-05T05:29:50Z beach: I should have said: It just traverses every package IN THE CURRENT GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT... 2017-07-05T05:30:51Z beach: There are in fact a lot of functions in the standard that operate on some environment, and often that environment is implicit, or passed as NIL which means the current global environment. 2017-07-05T05:31:46Z vtomole: I'll look into defpackage first then 2017-07-05T05:31:58Z beach: If you look in the file that I showed you, you will see generic functions with the same name (but in a different package) as many of the standard functions. The corresponding standard functions are the ones that operate on some environment. 2017-07-05T05:32:40Z beach: OK, lest analyze DEFPACKAGE. What does it do? 2017-07-05T05:32:52Z beach: It's a macro first of all. 2017-07-05T05:33:29Z beach: clhs defpackage 2017-07-05T05:33:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 2017-07-05T05:34:01Z vtomole: Creates a package which is an object 2017-07-05T05:34:04Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:34:22Z beach: Not really. It calls make-package to create the package. 2017-07-05T05:34:56Z beach: But it checks whether a package with that name exists. Where does it do that? 2017-07-05T05:35:16Z beach: In the implicit current global environment. 2017-07-05T05:35:59Z vtomole: Is there a condtion in make-package that checks whether or not that package exists? 2017-07-05T05:36:22Z beach: I don't think so. 2017-07-05T05:36:26Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T05:36:29Z beach: clhs make-package 2017-07-05T05:36:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm 2017-07-05T05:36:51Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)) 2017-07-05T05:37:02Z beach: Ah, no I was wrong. 2017-07-05T05:37:15Z beach: "A correctable error is signaled if the package-name or any of the nicknames is already the name or nickname of an existing package. " 2017-07-05T05:37:59Z vtomole: So how is defpackage unique from make-package? 2017-07-05T05:38:11Z beach: So, make-package does two things. It first consults the environment, and if no package exists with that name, it calls a more primitive function to create an instance of the package. 2017-07-05T05:38:38Z beach: vtomole: defpackage is a macro with nicer syntax. 2017-07-05T05:38:48Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T05:39:24Z beach: And defpackage also introduces symbols in the package, like shadowed and exported symbols. 2017-07-05T05:40:02Z vtomole: Why a defmacro defpackage and not defun defpackage? 2017-07-05T05:40:19Z beach: Because it is harder to get nice syntax with functions. 2017-07-05T05:41:13Z beach: You can say (defpackage ... (:use ...) (:export ...)) 2017-07-05T05:41:21Z beach: That would not have been possible with a function. 2017-07-05T05:41:30Z vtomole: So macros are primarily for making nice syntax? 2017-07-05T05:41:38Z krwq: beach, there is no impossible with lisp 2017-07-05T05:41:52Z beach: krwq: Thanks. Very insightful. 2017-07-05T05:42:13Z beach: vtomole: Yes, macros introduce new syntax. 2017-07-05T05:42:49Z beach: vtomole: You can think of defining a macro as programming the compiler to recognize new syntax. 2017-07-05T05:43:58Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-05T05:45:45Z vtomole: krwq: How do you mean? 2017-07-05T05:46:08Z beach: vtomole: I suggest you ignore that remark. 2017-07-05T05:46:22Z nonconveniens quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-05T05:46:28Z krwq: vtomole: you can redefine everything and make it as you like in lisp 2017-07-05T05:47:20Z krwq: vtomole: i wouldn't do that too much before finding what's already in CL 2017-07-05T05:47:56Z flavio81: krwq: +1000, preach on !! 2017-07-05T05:48:44Z krwq: that's the only reason i chose lisp, i don't like parentheses that much 2017-07-05T05:48:45Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:48:56Z beach: vtomole: It is not possible to redefine the semantics of a function call in Common Lisp. With a function call, you always evaluate the arguments before applying the function, so in the case of defpackage as a function, the function :USE would be called, but there is no such function. 2017-07-05T05:49:16Z flavio81: vtomole: i guess it is a macro to let you put (:use ...) (:export...) without having to put a quote ' at the beginning of the lists, because the macro won't evaluate the forms directly 2017-07-05T05:49:16Z beach: vtomole: That's why I suggested you ignore that particular remark. 2017-07-05T05:49:22Z krwq: true, once you do that that's not going to be common lisp anymore 2017-07-05T05:49:55Z beach: flavio81: (1 2 . 3) is indeed a list (a dotted list) and it is definitely not a syntax error. 2017-07-05T05:50:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:50:27Z flavio81: beach: wow that's a very old message, however the user was a beginner, so I thought this was very strange on his code 2017-07-05T05:50:35Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:51:06Z beach: flavio81: With beginners, it is even more important to use the correct terminology. Otherwise, they will be very confused. 2017-07-05T05:51:15Z vtomole: beach: You can't program the compiler using functions because? 2017-07-05T05:51:31Z flavio81: beach: you are right. Sorry. 2017-07-05T05:51:44Z krwq: beach: i disagree, i find it easier to use common sense terminology and switch slowly to proper names 2017-07-05T05:52:04Z beach: vtomole: The way function calls work is fixed by the Common Lisp standard. The arguments are always evaluated first before the function is applied. 2017-07-05T05:52:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T05:52:14Z beach: krwq: Good for you. 2017-07-05T05:52:28Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T05:52:39Z flavio81: vtomole: while with macros, you can have the arguments without first evaluating them. You can evaluate them later if you want. So they are more flexibles 2017-07-05T05:52:40Z krwq: lisp is as personal language as it can be 2017-07-05T05:52:42Z flavio81: *flexible 2017-07-05T05:53:57Z flavio81: vtomole: basically what a macro does is to spit out lisp code that *afterwards* is evaluated. So there is this intermediate step where you produce source code on-the-fly based on your argumemts. Thus, macros are source code that produces source code. Thus, even more powerful than functions. 2017-07-05T05:55:00Z krwq: vtomole: with macro instead of arguments you get exactly what user typed and can choose how it is going to be evaluated 2017-07-05T05:55:19Z krwq: ok not exactly 2017-07-05T05:55:27Z krwq: (reader macros) 2017-07-05T05:56:10Z krwq: you can introduce your own syntax in such way that it is hard to make errors when you write code 2017-07-05T05:56:19Z krwq: and you never have to write boilerplate code 2017-07-05T05:56:30Z krwq: if you see something repeating and annoying you can write a macro 2017-07-05T05:56:51Z vtomole: So functions can't spit lisp code:(defun square (x) `(* ,x ,x)) 2017-07-05T05:56:54Z vtomole: ? 2017-07-05T05:57:17Z krwq: vtomole they can 2017-07-05T05:57:29Z krwq: but you call it data 2017-07-05T05:57:51Z vtomole: Then how do i know when to use macros and when to not? 2017-07-05T05:57:53Z krwq: in lisp border between code and data is thin and almost non existent 2017-07-05T05:58:15Z krwq: you want to process something - use functions 2017-07-05T05:58:17Z beach: vtomole: You only define a macro when you need to violate the evaluation rule of functions. 2017-07-05T05:58:22Z krwq: you want to introduce new syntax use macro 2017-07-05T05:58:59Z krwq: macro is also a function but operates at different time 2017-07-05T05:58:59Z beach: vtomole: Macros are way less frequent than functions in typical code. 2017-07-05T05:59:45Z krwq: write only functions in the beginning and when you notice that you keep repeating yourself try macros 2017-07-05T06:00:54Z vtomole: Ok let me see if i've go this: The difference between functions and macros are that macros don't evaluate their arguments. This is used extend the compiler because macros are evaluated at a different time than functions 2017-07-05T06:00:54Z ecraven: vtomole: that ^ 2017-07-05T06:01:09Z flavio81: YESSS 2017-07-05T06:01:10Z vtomole: beach: So is the macro system implemented? 2017-07-05T06:01:14Z vtomole: Using macros? 2017-07-05T06:01:27Z flavio81: interesting question ! 2017-07-05T06:01:41Z krwq: vtomole: implementation specific probably, likely yes 2017-07-05T06:01:50Z beach: vtomole: Your description of the difference is correct. 2017-07-05T06:02:41Z beach: vtomole: The "macro system" is implemented by the compiler. When the compiler sees a compound form where the CAR is defined as a macro, it first expands the form and then processes it again. 2017-07-05T06:03:00Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:03:14Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1.2 2017-07-05T06:03:15Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm 2017-07-05T06:03:29Z beach: vtomole: ↑ 2017-07-05T06:03:58Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.2 2017-07-05T06:03:58Z specbot: Macro Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababb.htm 2017-07-05T06:04:03Z krwq: spec is really complete but quite not readable for beginners IMO 2017-07-05T06:04:31Z krwq: i still have hard time reading it (still beginner though) 2017-07-05T06:04:49Z vtomole: A macro is a mini-lisp compiler that compiles lisp to lisp before evaluating the compiled lisp. 2017-07-05T06:04:59Z vtomole: Is that the right thinking? 2017-07-05T06:05:04Z beach: krwq: Very true. But vtomole wants to help me write SICL, which is an implementation of Common Lisp, so he needs to get used to reading it. 2017-07-05T06:05:19Z beach: vtomole: Sounds about right. 2017-07-05T06:05:23Z krwq: that's fair point in this case 2017-07-05T06:05:58Z ecraven: vtomole: "Let over Lambda" deals with macros a lot, might be interesting 2017-07-05T06:06:14Z ecraven: though people disagree about whether you should go that far ;) 2017-07-05T06:06:30Z krwq: whatever makes you happy 2017-07-05T06:08:15Z vtomole: ecraven: I started reading it, it but i couldn't undertand the chapter on closures so i stopped. 2017-07-05T06:08:57Z krwq: vtomole: lisp is tough and simple at the same time 2017-07-05T06:09:17Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:09:56Z ecraven: vtomole: ah, but you will need to understand closures ;) 2017-07-05T06:10:23Z vtomole: ecarven: beach explained them to mee two days ago, i'm still processing 2017-07-05T06:10:39Z vtomole: I've also been reading Paul Graham's On Lisp 2017-07-05T06:10:42Z krwq: learn with examples and start using it 2017-07-05T06:10:42Z flavio81: vtomole: closures are a simple concept, though 2017-07-05T06:10:43Z ecraven: vtomole: yea, take your time, there's a lot to process ;) 2017-07-05T06:10:44Z vtomole: and he talks about closures 2017-07-05T06:11:04Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:11:23Z vtomole: flavio81: I understand the definition. Just the part about variables and environments... 2017-07-05T06:12:00Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T06:12:03Z krwq: vtomole: don't learn for sake of learning, read, start using, read again, you will eventually understand 2017-07-05T06:13:33Z vtomole: flavio81: That's probably the reason too haha. The concepts are easy but they are super subtle. 2017-07-05T06:13:58Z vtomole: krwq:Thanks 2017-07-05T06:14:03Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T06:16:15Z flavio81: vtomole: you mean lexical environment vs dynamic environment ? 2017-07-05T06:17:26Z vtomole: dynamic 2017-07-05T06:18:59Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T06:19:00Z krwq: vtomole: you should read about it 2017-07-05T06:19:26Z vtomole: krwq: About environments? 2017-07-05T06:24:27Z flavio81: vtomole: i can explain you the difference in a quick and dirty way. When you create a lexical variable using let (and some other ways as well...), this variable resides in the lexical environment that is enclosed within the let body (let (bindings) body) 2017-07-05T06:25:26Z vtomole: So each function has a lexical environment. 2017-07-05T06:25:31Z vtomole: But where is it? 2017-07-05T06:25:34Z vtomole: On the stack? 2017-07-05T06:25:47Z loke`: vtomole: Each form has a lexical environment. 2017-07-05T06:25:59Z flavio81: vtomole: so those variables are going to exist within those two parenthesis (the body), not outside. However, when you create a closure, like for example: (let ((x 0)) lambda (y) (...)), the "x" doesn't 'dissapear' after this code has passed away. The "X" will persist because it lives in its own environment 2017-07-05T06:26:01Z loke`: vtomole: The lexical environment is gone after the the function has been compiled. 2017-07-05T06:26:18Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:26:31Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-05T06:26:50Z vtomole: loke': Compiled? Not evaluated? 2017-07-05T06:27:25Z flavio81: vtomole: the other environment is th dynamic environment. You create variables in the dynamic environment with defvar and defparameter (among others). You can consider them as if they were "global" variables (although this is not 100% correct). This "dynamic environment" permeates all the functions within your package 2017-07-05T06:28:00Z beach: loke`: WHAT? 2017-07-05T06:28:08Z vtomole: flavio81: When would i use a closure? 2017-07-05T06:28:42Z beach: loke`: (let ((x 10)) (defun ff (y (+ x y)))) 2017-07-05T06:29:24Z flavio81: vtomole: so if i have (defvar *y* 100) and then (defun function (x) (let ((z 1)) (setf *y* (+ z x)))), the *y* exists in the dynamic environment, and the z is on the lexical environment. 2017-07-05T06:30:03Z beach: vtomole: Here is a typical use for a closure: (defun gg (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x)))) 2017-07-05T06:31:12Z beach: erc, (defun gg (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x)) list)) 2017-07-05T06:31:26Z beach: ... forgot the list argument. 2017-07-05T06:31:28Z beach: Sorry. 2017-07-05T06:31:56Z krwq: vtomole, try this out: (let ((counter 0)) (defun next () (incf counter))) 2017-07-05T06:31:57Z flavio81: vtomole: closures nontwithstanding, here comes the fun stuff: the lexical environment can "shadow" the dynamic environment. For example i can have a parameter called *name* set to "flavio": (defparameter *name* "Flavio"). And suppose i have a function: (defun hello () (princ *name*)), of course this function calls the *name* on the dynamic environment. However, if i do this. (let ((*name* "VTOMOLE")) (hello)), the ĥellp function will print "VTOMOLE". 2017-07-05T06:32:28Z loke`: flavio81: The lexical environment is not what's doing the shadowing though 2017-07-05T06:32:47Z flavio81: loke: please explain, i am not a master at this. 2017-07-05T06:33:04Z beach: flavio81: I am afraid you are confusing the hell out of vtomole. 2017-07-05T06:33:08Z loke`: *flavio* will still be special, and using LET to bind a special variable is more like doing a SETQ and then restroing the value in an unwind-protect form 2017-07-05T06:33:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:33:49Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:33:57Z flavio81: oooops 2017-07-05T06:34:05Z flavio81: i guess one learns something new each day 2017-07-05T06:34:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:34:45Z flavio81: thanks loke 2017-07-05T06:34:59Z vtomole: krwq: So anytime i call (next), counter is incremented, instead of just returning 1 everytime because the counter is set to 0 in the let? 2017-07-05T06:35:03Z flavio81: this was very interesting, really 2017-07-05T06:35:11Z Devon: Ignore that confused remark about "shadow" 2017-07-05T06:35:41Z flavio81: beach: yes. sorryl 2017-07-05T06:36:47Z krwq: vtomole: I probably will use wrong words to describe this, i have more intuitive understanding of things than verbal 2017-07-05T06:36:52Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T06:37:13Z krwq: beach is better with words 2017-07-05T06:38:17Z krwq: i can give you samples which helped me understand, not necessarily explain 2017-07-05T06:39:07Z beach: krwq: I think vtomole has an overload of (contradictory, incorrect, badly explained) information at this point. 2017-07-05T06:39:17Z Devon: To de-confuse the "shadow" remark a little, try (defun hello () (declare (special *name*)) (princ *name*)), (let ((*name* "VTOMOLE")) (declare (special *name*)) (hello)) 2017-07-05T06:40:10Z krwq: vtomole: best would be to try things out for a while, just experiment 2017-07-05T06:40:31Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:41:50Z krwq: many languages you can understand mostly really quickly, lisp is tough and will mess with you 2017-07-05T06:42:53Z beach: krwq: I don't believe that for a second. People think they understand a language like C quite easily, but then they don't take into account the huge number of undefined situations. 2017-07-05T06:44:05Z beach: krwq: Try to understand the concept of "sequence point" in C and why it exists, for example. 2017-07-05T06:44:27Z krwq: beach: with C you can figure out many things on your own and there is very limited amount of things you have to figure out, with lisp you can define anything and change anything which means you can't have assumptions about what the thing is doing 2017-07-05T06:45:08Z beach: The problem is that the things you "figure out" often represent undefined behavior. 2017-07-05T06:45:09Z flavio81: beach: i guess today is the day of "robert, you need extra patience and/or headache pills" ... 2017-07-05T06:45:25Z beach: Me? Just an ordinary day in #lisp. 2017-07-05T06:45:30Z flavio81: hahahahaaha 2017-07-05T06:46:15Z beach: In a few hours, I shall have my favorite co-author over for lunch, and then we will spend the afternoon working on some paper or book. It will be a great day. 2017-07-05T06:47:28Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T06:48:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:48:24Z flavio81: beach: nice! btw if you can, please complete this page http://metamodular.com/Music/music.html ... i was curious and clicked there 2017-07-05T06:48:58Z beach: Not high priority, but I'll think about it. Thanks for pointing it out. 2017-07-05T06:50:33Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T06:50:53Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-05T06:50:55Z flavio81: allright. So, beach, the explanaton made by loke` about how LET binds a special variable is accurate? 2017-07-05T06:51:28Z beach: Yes, loke` is very knowledgeable. 2017-07-05T06:52:18Z krwq: so let with special variables is not thread safe? 2017-07-05T06:53:06Z beach: krwq: Threads are not part of the standard, but the typical implementation makes bindings other than the global one per-thread. 2017-07-05T06:53:46Z beach: ... makes bindings other than the global binding specific to the current thread. 2017-07-05T06:54:45Z krwq: we should update the standard 2017-07-05T06:55:05Z beach: krwq: You are only the thousandth or so person suggesting that. 2017-07-05T06:55:10Z vtomole: krwq: No. 2017-07-05T06:55:14Z beach: krwq: It won't happen and it is not necessary. 2017-07-05T06:55:17Z vtomole: That will make it harder for me to learn 2017-07-05T06:55:19Z flavio81: beach: so if i use let to bind to a special variable ( a special variable that was defined before the let), the binding will be specific to that thread then ? 2017-07-05T06:55:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T06:55:44Z beach: krwq: Most people use languages that don't even *have* a standard, and they get along just fine. 2017-07-05T06:55:55Z beach: flavio81: Yes. 2017-07-05T06:56:00Z krwq: most of the languages have one implementation 2017-07-05T06:56:02Z flavio81: nice nice nice 2017-07-05T06:56:25Z flavio81: beach: thanks. I have not tried threading in lisp but will in the future, this is important to know. 2017-07-05T06:56:57Z beach: krwq: That's even worse. Because then things can change at random points in time, breaking existing code. It happened with Java, Python, etc. 2017-07-05T06:58:01Z krwq: pretty much everyone is using alexandria and quicklisp - why not standardize them? 2017-07-05T06:58:02Z beach: When I give talks in industry, I usually say something like "a project leader that chooses a language without a standard, published by an independent standardization organization, should be fired" 2017-07-05T06:58:10Z flavio81: beach: additional question. If inside a function (which runs in a thread), i make a reference, say, a setf to a special form (defined at top-level), i guess i potentially run into concurrency issues and need to use some kind of lock or software-transactional-memory or whatever? Or each thread will also receive a copy of the dynamic environment? 2017-07-05T06:58:31Z beach: krwq: Because it is not necessary, and nobody is willing to pay the huge amount of money it would take to update the standard. 2017-07-05T06:59:00Z krwq: i don't believe in one rightful centralized places for anything 2017-07-05T06:59:12Z beach: krwq: Sorry to hear that. 2017-07-05T07:00:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-05T07:00:28Z krwq: those places are nice but they should not have authority - power is what corrupts people and what makes us stay in one place 2017-07-05T07:01:56Z beach: flavio81: If you SETF the global binding, then it is shared with other threads. Depending on how the implementation deals with bindings of special variables, it may or may not require synchronization. Hopefully, your implementation will have taken care of that for you. 2017-07-05T07:02:50Z beach: flavio81: There will not be a per-thread copy of the global binding. 2017-07-05T07:02:55Z krwq: schrodinger synchronization 2017-07-05T07:05:37Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T07:05:42Z flavio81: beach: thanks 2017-07-05T07:05:49Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-05T07:07:33Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T07:08:18Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:08:18Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2017-07-05T07:08:18Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:11:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:12:16Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:12:32Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:13:57Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T07:14:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:15:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T07:17:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T07:26:49Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T07:29:32Z flavio81 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T07:35:08Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T07:37:40Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T07:40:12Z ots quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-05T07:44:00Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-05T07:45:15Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T07:46:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:46:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-05T07:46:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T07:53:33Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-05T07:59:15Z arduo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:03:00Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:05:40Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T08:06:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T08:07:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:10:44Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:15:38Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T08:18:35Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:19:00Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:25:40Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-05T08:30:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:34:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T08:36:43Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-05T08:38:12Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:45:06Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:46:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T08:49:11Z Guest12087 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:49:11Z Guest12087 quit (Changing host) 2017-07-05T08:49:11Z Guest12087 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:55:26Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T08:55:49Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-05T08:57:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:02:23Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:05:13Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:06:09Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:06:36Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:21:44Z Guest12087 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-05T09:23:36Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:26:09Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:30:27Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:32:26Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:36:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:37:33Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:39:24Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:40:27Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:40:36Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:42:14Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:43:06Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:46:25Z lanu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:46:27Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T09:47:16Z Ravana quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-05T09:52:46Z Merv__ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T09:55:38Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T10:01:04Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T10:03:51Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:05:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:08:23Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T10:09:48Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T10:12:00Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:12:17Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T10:22:57Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T10:22:57Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T10:23:34Z phadthai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:25:10Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:25:10Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:29:58Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:39:00Z phosphoros quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-05T10:39:12Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:39:16Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T10:39:52Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T10:40:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:52:46Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:57:50Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-05T10:58:14Z pjb is now known as Guest81086 2017-07-05T11:00:57Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:03:42Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T11:04:15Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T11:05:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:05:05Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:05:08Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:08:13Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T11:14:06Z dim left #lisp 2017-07-05T11:16:58Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T11:18:47Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:21:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:28:12Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:28:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:28:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-05T11:28:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:31:27Z dim joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:33:27Z Guest81086 is now known as pjb 2017-07-05T11:39:25Z Ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T11:41:40Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:48:10Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T11:55:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-05T11:56:50Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T11:57:02Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:57:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:57:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-05T11:57:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:57:36Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T11:58:29Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:59:22Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T11:59:38Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-05T11:59:55Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T12:00:00Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:00:52Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:01:18Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T12:01:29Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:02:39Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:03:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:07:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:07:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-05T12:07:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:13:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:18:57Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:19:34Z kev1n joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:19:55Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:21:03Z lagagain joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:21:21Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:23:13Z Merv__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T12:24:00Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:29:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:31:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:31:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-05T12:31:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:31:42Z kev1n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T12:33:12Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:37:07Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:39:42Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:40:04Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:40:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:41:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:42:46Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:44:44Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:45:22Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:46:21Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:49:10Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T12:51:30Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:54:24Z mfiano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T12:54:48Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-05T12:59:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:01:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:02:23Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T13:03:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:05:34Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:11:29Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:13:23Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:13:25Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:18:04Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-05T13:18:47Z dim left #lisp 2017-07-05T13:19:48Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:20:35Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:21:35Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:31:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:34:45Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:35:46Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:40:49Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:42:15Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:42:32Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:42:48Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:44:59Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T13:47:27Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:48:37Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T13:49:40Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:58:02Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T13:59:34Z szmer joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:00:15Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:03:34Z mrottenkolber: By chance anyone around who knows their way around CCL’s defx86lapfunction? 2017-07-05T14:04:27Z mrottenkolber: Specifically I am unsure about the semantics of (@ …) and (% …) 2017-07-05T14:06:32Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:10:06Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-05T14:10:11Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:10:37Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:19:04Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:20:03Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:20:05Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:22:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:23:54Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:25:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:26:01Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:26:40Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:26:48Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:30:20Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:30:46Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:33:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:34:12Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:34:56Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:36:13Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:39:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-05T14:39:57Z mrottenkolber: Think I figured it out, % is for accessing register arguments, @ is for dereferencing, optionally with an index 2017-07-05T14:40:28Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-05T14:41:31Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:43:15Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:43:29Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:45:22Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:45:44Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:48:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:51:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-05T14:54:12Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:58:05Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T14:58:42Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-05T15:08:33Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:11:21Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:11:41Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:12:07Z flavio81 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-05T15:17:35Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:25:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:26:18Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:32:35Z m00natic` joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:35:35Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:36:09Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:36:12Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:36:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:36:52Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:38:45Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:44:28Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:45:03Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:46:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:57:48Z m00natic` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T15:58:17Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T15:59:05Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:01:11Z knusbaum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T16:02:01Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:04:01Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:05:30Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:05:33Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:05:58Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:06:48Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:09:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:10:42Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:11:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:11:05Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-05T16:16:01Z szmer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:17:43Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:18:36Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T16:19:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:22:07Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:27:14Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:29:28Z Fonz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:30:59Z kencausey joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:31:12Z kencausey: find-package is failing for me with a string but works with a symbol. CLHS seems to say that both should work. 2017-07-05T16:31:18Z Bike: failing how? 2017-07-05T16:31:24Z kencausey: returning nil 2017-07-05T16:31:31Z Bike: what string are you using? 2017-07-05T16:31:46Z kencausey: say "ql-sbcl" for example 2017-07-05T16:31:47Z beach: kencausey: Probably a character-case isue. 2017-07-05T16:31:50Z kencausey: 'ql-sbcl works 2017-07-05T16:31:52Z beach: issue, even 2017-07-05T16:32:01Z Bike: try "QL-SBCL" 2017-07-05T16:32:02Z kencausey: Ah, I need caps? just a sec 2017-07-05T16:32:14Z Bike: also try (package-name (find-package 'ql-sbcl)) to see why 2017-07-05T16:32:21Z kencausey: yep, that was my mistake, thanks. 2017-07-05T16:34:04Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:34:24Z kencausey quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T16:37:46Z beach: Maybe we should have a fund to which people can contribute if they save huge amounts of time by getting quick answers like that. 2017-07-05T16:40:05Z epipping: beach: unless quick answers keep beginners from doing research on their own. which they probably do 2017-07-05T16:40:36Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:41:30Z beach: epipping: Possibly, yes. But kencausey has been coming here since November 2004, so I don't think he counts as a beginner. 2017-07-05T16:42:35Z beach: He hasn't been here for a few years, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, assuming he has been busy programming all these years. 2017-07-05T16:49:41Z scymtym: ,./';. 2017-07-05T16:50:35Z scymtym: sorry, child on keyboard 2017-07-05T16:53:21Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:53:21Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:53:34Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:53:40Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:54:07Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-07-05T16:56:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T16:57:37Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:01:49Z epipping: beach: oh, I wasn't calling kencausey a beginner (I don't know him/her and I did not read his/her question); maybe I misunderstood your intention -- I thought you were referring to quick answers more generally 2017-07-05T17:03:02Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:03:31Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:03:56Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:03:57Z epipping: beach: never mind me; I'll just go back to lurking. it's too easy to make a fool out of oneself by speaking up. 2017-07-05T17:05:43Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:06:29Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:07:07Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:07:09Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-05T17:08:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:09:21Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:13:33Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-05T17:20:14Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:22:40Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:23:13Z knusbaum quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:23:17Z knusbaum1 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:24:30Z glamas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T17:24:41Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:26:22Z glamas quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T17:26:25Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:26:27Z knusbaum1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T17:27:46Z jackdaniel: To Avoid Criticism, Say Nothing, Do Nothing, Be Nothing 2017-07-05T17:28:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:32:42Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:34:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T17:35:29Z edgar-rft: yes, and your functions should always return (values) 2017-07-05T17:37:00Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:37:23Z pjb is now known as Guest28111 2017-07-05T17:45:25Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:45:46Z shrdlu68 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-05T17:46:47Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:48:16Z beach: epipping: Don't worry about it. I was just showing off my skills in searching the logs. 2017-07-05T17:51:32Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:53:16Z shka_: hey 2017-07-05T17:53:45Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:53:49Z shka_: beach: excuse me, do you happen to know when docstrings where invented? 2017-07-05T17:53:50Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T17:54:25Z beach: shka_: I don't. Sorry. 2017-07-05T17:54:40Z shka_: ok, thanks 2017-07-05T17:54:43Z beach: I could research it for you, but now is time to go be with my (admittedly small) family. 2017-07-05T17:54:49Z shka_: no need 2017-07-05T17:55:49Z shka_: i'm just wondering when people figured out that there is enough memory to store info about program in the program 2017-07-05T17:56:55Z Xach: Philip Greenspun liked docstrings so much he added macros in his tcl stuff to save them. 2017-07-05T17:57:09Z shka_: cool :-) 2017-07-05T17:58:36Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T17:58:52Z Xach: proc_doc 2017-07-05T17:59:37Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-07-05T18:00:23Z foom: You don't even need a proc variant for that... 2017-07-05T18:00:38Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T18:00:40Z foom: "info body name" will return the proc's body. including comments 2017-07-05T18:01:56Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T18:02:01Z mrcom__ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:02:04Z foom: like, if you type "proc foo {} {\n#Hello\n}", then "info body foo" returns the string "\n#Hello\n" 2017-07-05T18:02:44Z Xach: foom: has it been ever thus? 2017-07-05T18:03:13Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:04:14Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T18:05:43Z foom: Xach: I don't know about "ever", but a long time for sure. 2017-07-05T18:05:57Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-05T18:08:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:08:09Z procl0 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T18:08:36Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T18:12:01Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:13:30Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:13:52Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:18:33Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:19:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:22:20Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T18:23:16Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T18:24:14Z peterhil joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:26:33Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:31:35Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:31:35Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T18:33:01Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T18:33:26Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T18:35:29Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:37:28Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T18:41:54Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-05T18:45:14Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:47:46Z bailon quit (Quit: fnord fnord fnord) 2017-07-05T18:49:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:50:29Z dwrngr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T18:58:01Z BW^-: beach,p_l,*: following up on a garbage collection conversation from recently - there's this talk in the literature that refcounting is "soo expensive". i don't really see that. refc. requires a "write barrier" that will count the new object and uncount the old object, and propagate any deallocations(and that can be made via a queue)... i don't see what's so CPU-expensive about that!? 2017-07-05T18:58:32Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T18:58:47Z BW^-: maybe 1985 the CPU work for such a write barrier would be "expensive". i don't really see what would be any notable about it. 2017-07-05T19:00:11Z p_l: BW^-: it used to be *less* expensive 2017-07-05T19:02:23Z White_Flame: from what I've read, people point to it having a negative effect on cache and memory bandwidth, which is one of the primary bottlenecks today 2017-07-05T19:03:07Z p_l: yes 2017-07-05T19:03:25Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-05T19:03:34Z White_Flame: refcounting turns read-only passing around of data into a write-heavy deluge of incs and decs 2017-07-05T19:03:35Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T19:04:01Z p_l: also, allocations of new objects are much more complex in refcount case compared to copying collectors 2017-07-05T19:04:18Z slyrus_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T19:04:19Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:04:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:05:13Z White_Flame: so it's actually a read barrier, not a write barrier 2017-07-05T19:05:48Z p_l: in terms of taxonomy, refcount would be low memory use, low throughput, v.short pause of usually constant time coupled to dealloc 2017-07-05T19:05:50Z White_Flame: but even more so, the barrier does work regardless of reading; it's a reference barrier (which gets tautological ;) ) 2017-07-05T19:06:42Z White_Flame: most GC read barriers don't actually write data for their common case; they just dereference pointers and check to see if things moved out from under them 2017-07-05T19:06:59Z BW^-: white_flame,p_l: so you mean that GC is cheaper? 2017-07-05T19:07:07Z White_Flame: the refcounting "read" barrier happens more often than tracing GC barriers, and performs writes 2017-07-05T19:07:18Z White_Flame: that's the modern concensus 2017-07-05T19:07:34Z p_l: BW^-: it all depends on tradeoffs you are willing to make 2017-07-05T19:07:41Z White_Flame: moving GC will not be cheaper in RAM, but mark/sweep doesn't have additional ram overhead 2017-07-05T19:08:10Z p_l: there are practically pauseless copying collectors like Azul's 2017-07-05T19:08:13Z White_Flame: but generally, blind refcounting will be more expensive in run time for common workloads than blind scanning GC 2017-07-05T19:08:22Z White_Flame: *blind use of 2017-07-05T19:09:00Z White_Flame: Azul's uses both read & write barriers, though 2017-07-05T19:09:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T19:09:13Z White_Flame: so the total overhead is a bit larger, while the pauses go away 2017-07-05T19:09:33Z White_Flame: for 100+GB heaps, you can't really pause, so you give up some runtime performance to keep everything running smoother 2017-07-05T19:09:46Z White_Flame: however, still probably faster than refcounting 2017-07-05T19:10:13Z White_Flame: the azul total overhead compared to traditional stop the world is apparently small 2017-07-05T19:11:23Z p_l: White_Flame: they also do most of it in-parallel thanks to supervisor-level access to paging hw 2017-07-05T19:11:27Z White_Flame: (and of course in azul hardware, they implement the barriers in silicon so that overhead goes away) 2017-07-05T19:11:45Z White_Flame: (if they still make custom cpus) 2017-07-05T19:12:16Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T19:12:43Z BW^-: white_flame: what do you mean by "moving GC"? 2017-07-05T19:12:54Z p_l: they don't, they figured how to do it same speed with EPT/RVI on amd64 2017-07-05T19:12:58Z White_Flame: GC that moves objects from 1 heap space to another heap space, and deallocates the old 2017-07-05T19:13:07Z p_l: BW^-: GC that moves data around 2017-07-05T19:13:15Z BW^-: p_l: Azul requires kernel patches and is patented, but yeah there's Brooks/Shenandoah 2017-07-05T19:13:22Z BW^-: white_flame: ^ 2017-07-05T19:13:46Z p_l: the classic original one was two space design using tape for newspace whike copying 2017-07-05T19:13:52Z White_Flame: right, but Azul is pretty much considered the state of the art, regardless of actual access to use of it ;) 2017-07-05T19:14:21Z andchat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T19:14:24Z p_l: BW^-: AFAIK Azul's isn't patented, just cumbersome to implement by competition due to lack of necessary APIs in systems 2017-07-05T19:14:37Z p_l: APIs that SBCL would also benefit from 2017-07-05T19:14:59Z BW^-: ..what? 2017-07-05T19:15:10Z BW^-: p_l: can you please confirm that Azul not is patented?? what's actually patented then?? 2017-07-05T19:15:11Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:15:17Z BW^-: i decidedly got that impression. 2017-07-05T19:15:20Z p_l: AFAIK one bit (streamed page faults) exists already and there's a patch that improves SBCL's GC with it 2017-07-05T19:15:40Z p_l: BW^-: well, technically, to patent it anywhere they need to marry it with hw 2017-07-05T19:15:41Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:15:42Z BW^-: humm? 2017-07-05T19:15:59Z BW^-: p_l: practically - really? but Amazon patented "one-click" buying?? 2017-07-05T19:16:10Z BW^-: p_l: URL to SBCL streamed page faults? 2017-07-05T19:16:23Z p_l: reading the patent 2017-07-05T19:17:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T19:17:50Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:17:55Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:18:04Z White_Flame: and in theory the "computer system running this software" patents are having some of their legal basis starting to crumble 2017-07-05T19:18:13Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:18:17Z White_Flame: (in the .us) 2017-07-05T19:18:21Z p_l: “Generational Garbage Collection, Write Barriers/Write Protection and userfaultfd(2)” (“Generational Garbage Collection, Write Barriers/Write Protection and userfaultfd(2)” @MartinCracauer https://medium.com/@MartinCracauer/generational-garbage-collection-write-barriers-write-protection-and-userfaultfd-2-8b0e796b8f7f) 2017-07-05T19:18:48Z p_l: White_Flame: and have little base elsewhere 2017-07-05T19:18:57Z White_Flame: yep 2017-07-05T19:19:39Z BW^-: white_flame: how? 2017-07-05T19:20:20Z White_Flame: there was some recent ruling (not sure if court case or patent application rejection) that running on generic computing hardware didn't make it a patentable machine' 2017-07-05T19:20:35Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:21:19Z flavio81: hi you all. good news White_Flame, if the unfair parts of the software patent system are starting to crumble 2017-07-05T19:25:15Z BW^-: p_l: interesting link! 2017-07-05T19:25:36Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: so Linux and also the BSD:s may get an OS callback for the memory event that Azul requires, awesome!! 2017-07-05T19:25:49Z p_l: BW^-: well, will see how much 2017-07-05T19:25:59Z p_l: Azul has a paper on pretty much everything necessary to implement it 2017-07-05T19:26:02Z BW^-: that has been the reason why you would not have wanted to run Azul on a mainstream app - that everyone would need to install kernel patches :o 2017-07-05T19:26:07Z BW^-: which they would never do obviously. 2017-07-05T19:26:29Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: now what about the patenting constraints, can you make a CPU page event optimization based GC without running into patent issues? 2017-07-05T19:26:34Z Guest28111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T19:26:38Z p_l: BW^-: truth is that "mainstream" is quite happy to run on customized if it can get support contract 2017-07-05T19:27:48Z BW^-: ah yeah sure, but for instance, the Azul code I saw was only for some obscure.. Redhat verison I think 2017-07-05T19:27:54Z BW^-: so "mainstream" enterprises sure 2017-07-05T19:28:01Z BW^-: but mainstream scripting kids and grandmothers, no 2017-07-05T19:29:20Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:30:22Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: re considering refcounting expensive, I'd actually guess that it's not only the fact that writing a reference costs both a read and a write (and + one more round for othe other reference) - but also, you need to use pretty expensive, atomic, versions of CPU memory access primitives to get atomicity no?? 2017-07-05T19:30:36Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T19:30:49Z BW^-: so like, with the normal atomicity, just writing a reference within a GC (e.g. "MOV someaddress,newobjectref") is atomic in itself, and also the operation is cheap 2017-07-05T19:30:50Z p_l: BW^-: yep 2017-07-05T19:31:00Z BW^-: those like "ATOMIC_INC memoryaddress" would be like 100x more expensive 2017-07-05T19:31:10Z p_l: and even that MOV is not necessarily atomic depending on CPU 2017-07-05T19:31:15Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:31:17Z BW^-: actually "ATOMIC_INC some; ATOMIC_DEC someother; CMP_IF_Z some" 2017-07-05T19:31:20Z BW^-: very interesting. 2017-07-05T19:31:22Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:31:31Z BW^-: p_l: aligned MOV is generally atomic?? 2017-07-05T19:31:37Z BW^-: a native word size MOV. 2017-07-05T19:31:41Z p_l: BW^-: nope 2017-07-05T19:31:53Z BW^-: p_l: where not?? AMD, ARM, SPARC are atomic I think at least. 2017-07-05T19:31:59Z BW^-: MIPS i'd wildly guess too. 2017-07-05T19:31:59Z p_l: on x86, it's LOCK MOV 2017-07-05T19:32:07Z BW^-: emm, noo? 2017-07-05T19:32:18Z BW^-: x86 has "strict memory ordering" or how you call it 2017-07-05T19:32:28Z p_l: BW^-: it's atomic in the sense of cpu instruction ordering 2017-07-05T19:32:33Z BW^-: accesses are always atomic as long as they don't span more 4096 byte pages on x86?? 2017-07-05T19:32:44Z p_l: without exhibiting... certain funnier behaviours 2017-07-05T19:33:00Z BW^-: p_l: atomic in the sense that writing the 64bit word on a 64bit machine won't leave you with 24bit of the new verions and 40 bits of the old or some other..? 2017-07-05T19:33:37Z p_l: BW^-: in this sense, yes. But not in the "it actually hit the memory" which makes things go wonky if you have concurrency even on single core 2017-07-05T19:34:06Z p_l: and then there are things like Alpha, which at least in theory still decides memory model of linux kernel 2017-07-05T19:34:14Z BW^-: p_l: well, it might take some time to hit memory, right.. so you should do MSYNC/barrier if you want your write to become readable to others fast 2017-07-05T19:34:14Z BW^-: BUT 2017-07-05T19:34:20Z BW^-: still in *either case* it's "atomic" 2017-07-05T19:34:48Z milanj_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T19:34:52Z mrottenkolber quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T19:34:53Z p_l: BW^-: from single-program view, yes 2017-07-05T19:35:16Z White_Flame: I'm pretty sure that in the last 2 or 3 gens of intel CPUs, they did change the caching model to preserve word-sized writes 2017-07-05T19:35:16Z p_l: better would be "synchronized" 2017-07-05T19:35:18Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:35:47Z BW^-: p_l: also between programs, for the usecase of inter-process shared memory?? 2017-07-05T19:35:59Z BW^-: white_flame: Intel has had "strict memory ordering" all the time? 2017-07-05T19:36:12Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:36:23Z White_Flame: there's a difference between what the CPU cores issue, and how caches combine their writes together 2017-07-05T19:36:23Z BW^-: btw 2017-07-05T19:36:27Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:36:35Z BW^-: what's different between what the medium.com article suggests, and Azul? 2017-07-05T19:36:50Z p_l: BW^-: Azul has also special acquire semantics 2017-07-05T19:36:51Z BW^-: white_flame: ..leading to? meaning? 2017-07-05T19:36:57Z BW^-: p_l: what's that? 2017-07-05T19:37:26Z p_l: BW^-: when you take a reference to an object, there's some special code involved (don't recall details) 2017-07-05T19:37:38Z White_Flame: the CPU writes into cache. The cache system figures out coherencies between cores and how to write to memory. They're 2 completely different systems 2017-07-05T19:37:43Z p_l: but essentially it allows them to do equivalent of Lisp Machine's forwarding pointers on amd64 2017-07-05T19:38:08Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-05T19:38:22Z p_l: so they can concurrently copy 2017-07-05T19:39:01Z White_Flame: BW^-: the CPU write ordering issues are regarding out-of-order processing, and ensuring that overwrites from the same CPU thread hit the cache system in order 2017-07-05T19:39:49Z BW^-: white_flame: noo!? -- on amd64, a single word MOV will always appear to another CPU core, as happening atomically, presuming it was made within the same 4096 byte page. 2017-07-05T19:39:51Z BW^-: i promise. 2017-07-05T19:40:34Z BW^-: p_l: it's a memory system events based implementation of forwarding of brooks forwarding pointers, right. 2017-07-05T19:40:51Z p_l: BW^-: can you get reference from instruction manual? would be useful (I'm no good at navigating those huge books) 2017-07-05T19:40:52Z BW^-: p_l: where, if you hit the old page, instead of checking "is the forwarding pointer set or not", a memory trap trigs which will do the update automatically. 2017-07-05T19:40:54Z White_Flame: BW^-: that's a separate issue... 2017-07-05T19:41:26Z p_l: BW^-: they also benefit from making the page fault very fast 2017-07-05T19:41:27Z White_Flame: there are a ton of separate subsystems and separate ordering problems; they're not all just 1 feature 2017-07-05T19:41:27Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: i think Ulrich Drepper's memory caching book, available online, covers it 2017-07-05T19:41:38Z BW^-: white_flame: what's a separet issue? 2017-07-05T19:41:46Z BW^-: white_flame: where can I read about that? 2017-07-05T19:41:49Z White_Flame: CPU memory write ordering vs cache coherency 2017-07-05T19:42:46Z BW^-: white_flame: but those have been made to be perfectly symmetrical on AMD64 no?? 2017-07-05T19:43:19Z White_Flame: there were changes a few years back that really cleaned up the model from a programmer's perspective 2017-07-05T19:43:30Z White_Flame: somewhere around skylake or right before 2017-07-05T19:44:02Z White_Flame: and they also added some transactional memory extensions 2017-07-05T19:44:17Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T19:45:02Z grumble quit (Quit: n) 2017-07-05T19:45:05Z White_Flame: but certainly before then, there were increasing edge cases going back through recent years that could cause real issues with multithreaded shared mutating memory 2017-07-05T19:45:15Z BW^-: white_flame: (except for the transactional memory extensions;) oh, wow. where can i read about it? i was not aware. 2017-07-05T19:45:26Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:45:27Z BW^-: never heard! 2017-07-05T19:45:30Z White_Flame: idunno, it was in tech news as it was happening. google is your friend 2017-07-05T19:45:33Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:46:03Z BW^-: p_l,white_flame: here you go https://people.freebsd.org/~lstewart/articles/cpumemory.pdf , that's the only authoritative doc i've seen on the subject before! 2017-07-05T19:46:26Z White_Flame: and of course that's 10 years out of date now 2017-07-05T19:47:01Z White_Flame: flipping through the first few pages, do motherboards even have northbridges anymore? 2017-07-05T19:48:07Z BW^-: no idea 2017-07-05T19:48:42Z p_l: White_Flame: nope 2017-07-05T19:50:50Z BW^-: white_flame,p_l: interesting that anything got better in memory atomicity. i thought it was all good already. 2017-07-05T19:51:02Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T19:54:09Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T19:57:01Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T19:57:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T19:57:04Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-05T19:59:07Z flavio81 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T19:59:25Z BW^-: white_flame,p_l: when working crossplatform, e.g. ARM, ARM64, sparc, mips, sgi, what kind of atomicity can you expect then?? 2017-07-05T19:59:28Z BW^-: i guess aligned words 2017-07-05T20:05:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:08:40Z p_l: BW^-: Generally, if it didn't change much, I'd use Documentation/memory-barriers.txt from linux kernel source as guide 2017-07-05T20:09:40Z mrcom__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T20:10:31Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T20:12:56Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T20:14:45Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:18:05Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:20:10Z jan-magnus joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:22:49Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:23:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:25:10Z BW^-: p_l: wait, for which? 2017-07-05T20:26:11Z p_l: BW^-: regarding memory model for cross-platform code 2017-07-05T20:26:32Z p_l: BW^-: they have a very sensible argument of "write code like everything is an Alpha that uses every bit of leverage" 2017-07-05T20:27:38Z p_l: the only thing that Alpha guaranteed was that dependency of register ops and related load/stores is safe 2017-07-05T20:28:01Z p_l: safe within one instruction stream and within local view of the core, not with regards to memory 2017-07-05T20:30:51Z p_l: to the point that instruction pointer is useless to figure out point of error/exception/etc. 2017-07-05T20:31:55Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-05T20:38:42Z szmer joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:41:22Z BW^-: p_l: dear, oh, didn't know! 2017-07-05T20:41:32Z BW^-: p_l: so the Alpha architecture has had the very worst atomicity around?? 2017-07-05T20:41:41Z p_l: BW^-: no, the most *explicit* 2017-07-05T20:42:23Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:43:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:44:06Z andchat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T20:44:29Z jan-magnus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T20:44:43Z jan-magnus joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:45:45Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:46:09Z p_l: essentially, if the memory access was to even go past cache in any form that should be coherent to other hw, it had to be apropriately fenced 2017-07-05T20:46:57Z BW^-: ah, declared, pointed out, ok. 2017-07-05T20:48:11Z p_l: also ISA was totally out-of-order 2017-07-05T20:48:17Z p_l: (even if early cpus were mostly in-order) 2017-07-05T20:48:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:48:52Z Ven is now known as Guest87924 2017-07-05T20:49:59Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T20:50:32Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:50:45Z jan-magnus left #lisp 2017-07-05T20:50:51Z prxq joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:52:16Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T20:53:24Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T20:56:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T20:57:27Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2017-07-05T20:57:36Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-05T20:59:57Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:02:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:05:23Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:05:47Z drmeister: When multithreading in ECL does anyone know if there is a per-thread generic function cache? 2017-07-05T21:06:15Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:06:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:06:41Z drmeister: I assumed there was and implemented it like that in Clasp - but I just ran into a problem when recompiling methods - other threads (other than the one doing the compilation) don't get their generic function caches cleared. 2017-07-05T21:07:05Z p_l: drmeister: I don't think so... 2017-07-05T21:07:12Z drmeister: I pinged jackdaniel in #clasp with the same question. 2017-07-05T21:10:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:13:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:16:57Z Guest87924 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T21:18:21Z p_l: huh, OpenJDK's Shenandoah explicitly points out to 1984 symposium on lisp and functional programming 2017-07-05T21:21:28Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:21:47Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:23:24Z gremly quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:26:20Z BW^-: p_l: yes, of course, that's where it was invented?? 2017-07-05T21:26:37Z p_l: BW^-: still, sometimes one gets surprised by this 2017-07-05T21:27:50Z BW^-: p_l: yea sure. 2017-07-05T21:27:58Z BW^-: p_l: all the GC literature is just totally pumped with lisp refs lol. 2017-07-05T21:28:03Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:28:12Z p_l: worse is when you can't get the original paper 2017-07-05T21:28:14Z BW^-: like, paper reference [1] is McCarthy 1960 in all of them haha 2017-07-05T21:28:22Z BW^-: p_l: www.booksc.org is pretty goo! 2017-07-05T21:28:23Z BW^-: d 2017-07-05T21:28:27Z BW^-: 85%+ hit rate. 2017-07-05T21:28:30Z p_l: I might finally break and get ACM library subscription 2017-07-05T21:29:06Z diegs_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9-dev) 2017-07-05T21:29:42Z BW^-: lol. 2017-07-05T21:30:25Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:31:12Z p_l: it's nice that current $DAYJOB gives us Safari Books, but ACM and IEEE subscriptions would be nice too 2017-07-05T21:31:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:33:32Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T21:34:58Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-05T21:35:47Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:36:35Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-05T21:49:01Z gremly joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:51:06Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-05T21:52:13Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T21:53:02Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T22:02:09Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:07:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:10:29Z foom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T22:12:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:12:20Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:12:58Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:15:34Z szmer quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-05T22:18:37Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:21:23Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:21:57Z foom joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:25:53Z dim joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:26:00Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-05T22:28:15Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T22:33:46Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:35:51Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:36:58Z d4ryus4 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:39:00Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:41:45Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:42:09Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:43:31Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-05T22:43:49Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:47:27Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:47:53Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:50:45Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:51:43Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:53:19Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-05T22:54:01Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:00:24Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:04:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-05T23:05:10Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:05:28Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T23:05:58Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T23:08:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:10:09Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T23:10:38Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T23:11:06Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:12:26Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T23:16:24Z dim: is there a simple way to access current function's name at runtime? is it a good idea to try and do so? 2017-07-05T23:17:44Z dim: quick reading, quick answer: ok I don't really want to do that 2017-07-05T23:21:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:23:36Z Bike: the standard way is function-lambda-expression, but it's just for debug information and is allowed to fail 2017-07-05T23:24:15Z dim: my use case is to have SQL queries apart in .sql files, and to load them in memory at load time thanks to defparameter 2017-07-05T23:24:47Z dim: now in the function using the queries I wanted to be lazy and do an automatic lookup of the query filename from the current function's name 2017-07-05T23:25:05Z dim: but well. I don't really need that, and it would prevent multiple queries being used in the same function anyway 2017-07-05T23:25:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-05T23:25:20Z andchat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T23:27:33Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:27:52Z dim: I had a pseudo-fs implementation as an hash-table for all-included web-app, I'm going to see about using that 2017-07-05T23:28:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-05T23:30:08Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:30:37Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:33:04Z marvin2: clhs append does not mention mutation, but iirc, it is allowed to mutate first argument for performance reasons? is that correct? 2017-07-05T23:33:45Z dim: alexandria:apendf handles mutation ala setf, pretty useful 2017-07-05T23:34:59Z marvin2: i actually want to avoid mutation, but I'm not entirely sure if clhs mentions it when it happens, or when it is guaranteed that it doesn't happen 2017-07-05T23:35:00Z sukaeto: marvin2: no, append does not modify its arguments 2017-07-05T23:35:03Z sukaeto: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 2017-07-05T23:35:03Z axion: it does mention structure is retained for input lists. 2017-07-05T23:35:11Z axion: "lists are left unchanged" 2017-07-05T23:35:15Z sukaeto: "append returns a new list that is the concatenation of the copies. lists are left unchanged;" 2017-07-05T23:35:53Z marvin2: oh you're right, I just searched that page for mutation 2017-07-05T23:37:23Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:37:31Z |3b| doesn't think clhs uses the term "mutation"/"mutate" 2017-07-05T23:37:45Z axion: I have never seen it 2017-07-05T23:38:24Z Bike: usually it says "destructive(ly)", which is also exciting 2017-07-05T23:38:41Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T23:38:42Z |3b|: yeah, modify or destructive 2017-07-05T23:43:36Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:48:24Z andchat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T23:48:46Z handlex quit (Quit: handlex) 2017-07-05T23:49:48Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:50:40Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-05T23:54:45Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-05T23:59:39Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T00:03:15Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T00:06:07Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:08:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:13:02Z marvin3 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:13:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T00:15:14Z antonv joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:15:16Z antonv: Hello 2017-07-06T00:15:24Z antonv: Doesn anyone knows fre HTTP proxy? 2017-07-06T00:15:36Z antonv: I want to try one problem I suspect in Drakma. 2017-07-06T00:15:45Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T00:15:59Z antonv: If the proxy is stable enough to be included into unit tests - that would be perfect. 2017-07-06T00:18:09Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:18:18Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:28:30Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T00:32:02Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:37:05Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T00:38:50Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T00:40:40Z andchat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T00:44:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T00:58:09Z handlex quit (Quit: handlex) 2017-07-06T01:02:25Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T01:07:27Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:08:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T01:08:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:09:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:13:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T01:14:10Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:22:58Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T01:23:03Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:23:10Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:23:17Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:31:27Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:31:56Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:38:59Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T01:47:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-06T01:53:32Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-06T01:55:45Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T01:57:25Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T01:58:16Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:07:26Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:10:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:11:24Z huyhuy17_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:14:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T02:19:12Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:22:55Z huyhuy17_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T02:23:46Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T02:30:28Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:30:40Z blt joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:32:00Z keviv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T02:32:22Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T02:33:00Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:44:30Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:45:12Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T02:49:40Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:53:33Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T02:54:03Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:58:12Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T02:59:45Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:06:04Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:06:52Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:07:07Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:07:08Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-06T03:08:38Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:10:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:15:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:16:41Z andchat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T03:19:52Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:22:12Z Tristam quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-07-06T03:26:35Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-06T03:26:37Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T03:26:44Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:26:59Z Guest47766 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:28:25Z Guest47766: exit 2017-07-06T03:28:27Z Guest47766 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T03:34:25Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:37:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:39:19Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:41:53Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:42:57Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:44:32Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:44:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:45:37Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-06T03:46:09Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-06T03:47:28Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:48:35Z vh0st- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:56:42Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T03:57:03Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T03:57:21Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-06T03:57:36Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:02:53Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:04:21Z ardoc joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:04:56Z arduo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T04:08:54Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:11:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:11:53Z leo_song joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:13:53Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:14:55Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:15:34Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:15:43Z logicmoo quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-06T04:16:05Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:16:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:17:04Z procl0 quit (Quit: out) 2017-07-06T04:17:06Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:22:02Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:29:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:42:13Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-06T04:47:29Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:48:33Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-06T04:48:49Z lanu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T04:49:14Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T04:52:03Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-06T04:52:50Z loke`: Hello beach~! 2017-07-06T05:01:13Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:04:15Z vtomole: beach: Hey 2017-07-06T05:04:34Z vtomole: beach: I go the sicl repl running. Been playing with it all night 2017-07-06T05:04:48Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:04:52Z vtomole: beach: Need to figure out how do automatically indent the code 2017-07-06T05:05:13Z beach: Nice! 2017-07-06T05:08:46Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:08:50Z Merv__ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:09:30Z beach: vtomole: Sorry about people making you confused the other day. That's just the intrinsic nature of #lisp. 2017-07-06T05:09:33Z mjl_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:11:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:11:15Z o`connor_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:11:52Z billstclair_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:12:18Z birk joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:12:27Z vtomole: beach: I understand. Seems like even seasoned lispers can lose track of the fundamentals. It's definitely not an "easy" language for a lack of a better word. 2017-07-06T05:12:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:12:40Z |3b|` joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:12:52Z beach: True. 2017-07-06T05:13:04Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:13:37Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:13:50Z gigetoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:14:34Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:14:47Z argoneus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:15:01Z jyc__ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:15:38Z hctib joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:16:34Z beach: vtomole: What year at the university are you in? 2017-07-06T05:16:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:19:01Z ikopico_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:19:14Z vtomole: beach: I'm graduating May 2018 2017-07-06T05:19:34Z beach: I see. Computer Science? 2017-07-06T05:19:44Z vtomole: beach: Computer Engineering 2017-07-06T05:19:46Z j0ni_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:19:53Z beach: Nice. 2017-07-06T05:20:13Z temporal1 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:22:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z Meow-J quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z Merv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z bitch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z beaky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z o`connor quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z lonjil quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z |3b| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z argoneus quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z jyc_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z Meow-J quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z ikopico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:24Z j0ni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:25Z TeMPOraL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:22:26Z Merv__ is now known as Merv 2017-07-06T05:22:27Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2017-07-06T05:22:27Z mjl_ is now known as mjl 2017-07-06T05:22:27Z ikopico_ is now known as ikopico 2017-07-06T05:22:31Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 2017-07-06T05:22:33Z gigetoo_ is now known as gigetoo 2017-07-06T05:22:53Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:23:08Z vtomole: beach: Gotta start thinking about getting a job. My days of lisping for 12+ hrs a day are going to come to an end :( 2017-07-06T05:23:11Z jameser quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-06T05:23:28Z beach: Yes, I see. 2017-07-06T05:25:44Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:26:16Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:27:23Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:27:34Z vtomole: *thinking about how to add SICL to Slime* 2017-07-06T05:27:48Z beach: That would be nice. 2017-07-06T05:27:57Z beach: vtomole: Are you in the US? 2017-07-06T05:28:43Z vtomole: beach: Yes. 2017-07-06T05:29:00Z beach: If I were you, I would think about moving around a bit, maybe New Zealand, Australia, or Europe. 2017-07-06T05:29:26Z beach: I have lived in 5 countries on 4 continents. It gives an interesting perspective. 2017-07-06T05:30:23Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-07-06T05:32:06Z vtomole: I've heard New Zealand is beautiful. But I might just go to Silicon Valley or something... 2017-07-06T05:32:22Z beach: Boring. :) 2017-07-06T05:32:26Z kini joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:32:31Z vtomole: Not a lot of lisp meetups where i am 2017-07-06T05:32:39Z beach: Where is that? 2017-07-06T05:32:48Z vtomole: Iowa 2017-07-06T05:32:54Z beach: Ah, yes, I see. 2017-07-06T05:34:12Z beach: If you move to Europe, you will be closer to ELS. :) 2017-07-06T05:34:23Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:34:33Z beach: Close to a hundred participants every year. 2017-07-06T05:35:01Z beach: You could get yourself hired by Ravenpack in Marbella. 2017-07-06T05:35:12Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-06T05:35:47Z vtomole: I will go there sometime. It's annual correct? Around the springtime? 2017-07-06T05:35:56Z beach: Correct. 2017-07-06T05:36:04Z beach: Usually April or May. 2017-07-06T05:36:13Z beaky joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:37:53Z beach: If I were looking for a job, I might seriously consider Ravenpack in Marbella. 2017-07-06T05:38:16Z beach: Nice country, nice climate, good food, nice people, nice language. 2017-07-06T05:38:44Z vtomole: Spain? idk. 2017-07-06T05:39:10Z beach: Yes, south. Close to Morocco. :) 2017-07-06T05:39:38Z beach: Spain is in the EU, so you have many interesting places that are easily accessible.. 2017-07-06T05:40:19Z vtomole: Not England though :( 2017-07-06T05:40:30Z beach: Not anymore, right. 2017-07-06T05:40:57Z beach: And Spain is one of the few remaining countries where the extreme right is still marginal. Off-topic, I know, sorry. 2017-07-06T05:43:46Z chinchilla quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:44:09Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:44:18Z vtomole: beach: It seems like a lot of Europeans (and people from other continents) want to come here for tech, so i don't see why i would leave. 2017-07-06T05:45:49Z chinchilla joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:45:53Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:48:49Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T05:49:16Z larsen joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:50:36Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T05:52:43Z beach: vtomole: I could give several reasons, but they would be off topic, so I'll refrain. 2017-07-06T05:58:02Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:00:08Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:00:12Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-06T06:01:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:04:23Z vtomole: beach: SICL seems pretty complete from the code i've plugged in tonight. Do you regularly run ansi tests on the whole system? 2017-07-06T06:05:23Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T06:05:25Z loke`: vtomole: Beach told me just a few days ago that it wasn't complete? 2017-07-06T06:05:46Z beach: vtomole: No, that would be premature. The REPL "borrows" a lot of stuff from the host system. 2017-07-06T06:05:48Z vtomole: loke' : By "pretty complete" i meant like 99 % 2017-07-06T06:05:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:06:30Z vtomole: beach: Once it can run on it's own with Cluster? 2017-07-06T06:06:51Z beach: vtomole: All the functions on numbers come from the host: +, -, *, /, sin, cos, tan, ... 2017-07-06T06:08:19Z beach: It is hard to give a completeness percentage, because there is a lot of stuff that is not directly visible in terms of the standard. 2017-07-06T06:09:48Z loke`: beach: what about IO stuff? 2017-07-06T06:10:29Z beach: I haven't done a lot about that either. 2017-07-06T06:12:10Z beach: ... assuming you mean the basic stuff like streams and such. 2017-07-06T06:12:32Z beach: Otherwise, the reader is pretty complete. 2017-07-06T06:13:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:13:13Z beach: I have mainly been working on the hard stuff, like the compiler, first-class global environments, etc. 2017-07-06T06:13:32Z loke`: Yes, I was thinking about streams. 2017-07-06T06:13:50Z beach: I figured the straightforward stuff could be done by someone else. :) 2017-07-06T06:15:27Z vtomole: beach: How would you get SICL off the host? 2017-07-06T06:16:12Z beach: vtomole: Finish the bootstrapping process. It is nontrivial. 2017-07-06T06:17:12Z vtomole: Do you have a paper talking about it? 2017-07-06T06:17:37Z beach: Not a published one, no. 2017-07-06T06:17:42Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:18:04Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:18:08Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:18:20Z vtomole: Did you ever end up looking into how mezzano bootstraps? 2017-07-06T06:18:50Z beach: I started, but I have been too busy. I will definitely do that. 2017-07-06T06:19:36Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:19:50Z mingus joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:20:08Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:20:32Z omilu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:20:32Z tephra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:20:43Z tephra joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:20:56Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:21:00Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:21:28Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:21:28Z TruePika quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:21:28Z jean377_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:21:42Z TruePika joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:22:15Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-06T06:22:18Z omilu joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:22:37Z kini joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:23:02Z jean377 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:25:14Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:26:54Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:27:53Z larsen joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:28:08Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:36:50Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:39:35Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:43:48Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:45:59Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-07-06T06:58:14Z vh0st- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T06:59:25Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:05:09Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:10:56Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:11:42Z prxq joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:12:51Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T07:12:51Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:12:51Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T07:13:40Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:14:24Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T07:15:44Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:15:57Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:19:48Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:20:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:20:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:21:48Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:22:42Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:23:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:23:58Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-06T07:24:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:34:43Z vh0st- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:35:21Z mingus quit (Quit: mingus) 2017-07-06T07:35:29Z ardoc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T07:36:24Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T07:36:37Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:40:07Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:41:01Z tapioco quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:41:40Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T07:42:17Z mingus joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:43:05Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:43:57Z vh0st- quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:43:57Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:47:05Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T07:52:11Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:54:23Z tapioco joined #lisp 2017-07-06T07:54:52Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-06T07:56:44Z loke` is now known as loke 2017-07-06T07:57:10Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:02:09Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:02:11Z VanillaIce joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:03:37Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:04:02Z VanillaIce left #lisp 2017-07-06T08:08:12Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:08:55Z Sigyn quit (Quit: NO HEARTBEAT, NO SERVICE.) 2017-07-06T08:09:04Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T08:09:28Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:09:44Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:09:46Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:09:47Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:12:20Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:12:22Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:14:51Z [X-Scale] joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:16:08Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:16:08Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale 2017-07-06T08:16:35Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:16:37Z X-Scale is now known as Guest69116 2017-07-06T08:17:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:17:49Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:18:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:20:08Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:20:25Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:21:51Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:22:20Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:22:20Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2017-07-06T08:23:28Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:31:08Z chens joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:37:04Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:37:46Z BW^-: are there any distributed non-copying garbage collectors? 2017-07-06T08:37:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:38:11Z BW^-: ..or non-copying GC:s that segment objects, meaning tracing and marking is done in small iterations 2017-07-06T08:38:18Z BW^-: ..that are really good 2017-07-06T08:38:51Z zchlyg joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:39:09Z jamtho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T08:39:37Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:40:07Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:40:24Z lvo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:42:36Z p_l: BW^-: real-time collectors, iterative (I think?) or concurrent ones 2017-07-06T08:45:18Z shka: usually you just use reference counting 2017-07-06T08:45:29Z p_l: not just that 2017-07-06T08:46:11Z p_l: IBM J9 used a collector that worked towards 70% MMU with 30% of the time in small amortized chunks for running collector 2017-07-06T08:46:47Z p_l: it meant that for a 10ms quanta, you had 7ms of mutator and 3ms of collector 2017-07-06T08:49:47Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T08:50:28Z loke: What is ibm j9? 2017-07-06T08:51:15Z p_l: loke: IBM's own JVM 2017-07-06T08:51:29Z p_l: it's awesome but has... interesting license 2017-07-06T08:51:47Z p_l: tl;dr you need to be using an IBM product to be licensed it 2017-07-06T08:51:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:52:51Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:54:18Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T08:54:42Z shka: how it is distributed? 2017-07-06T08:54:49Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:54:55Z loke: Is it the thing you run on Zos? 2017-07-06T08:55:39Z dim: BW^-: I think the Erlang GC has the properties you're interested into 2017-07-06T08:56:12Z p_l: loke: Z/OS Java uses J9, yes, but there's also Linux, AIX, OS/2, even Windows build 2017-07-06T08:56:22Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:56:32Z shka: dim: erlang GC runs on a single process 2017-07-06T08:56:33Z p_l: loke: if you run WebSphere you usually run it on J9 2017-07-06T08:56:53Z shka: thing is, there is share nothing design in erlang, so there is no need for distributed GC 2017-07-06T08:56:56Z loke: p_l: How do you run the windows build on IBM hardware? 2017-07-06T08:57:12Z p_l: loke: there's also "WebSphere Realtime" which has realtime-extended Java with even more tuned GC for realtime stable perf 2017-07-06T08:57:28Z loke: Oh wait, "product". Not necessarily hardware, I guess. 2017-07-06T08:57:35Z p_l: loke: x Series and thinkads are grandfathered, plus the product case 2017-07-06T08:57:42Z p_l: my laptop is licensed being a thinkpad 2017-07-06T08:58:04Z loke: So even if you run your own Linux installation on it, you can still use k9? 2017-07-06T08:58:06Z offby0 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T08:58:06Z loke: j9 2017-07-06T08:58:15Z p_l: yes 2017-07-06T08:58:27Z dim: I think I have dim memory of reading https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6844/271989c22aa1395466b88a65b5775ec9f791.pdf and kind of remember the gc being concurrent 2017-07-06T08:58:49Z p_l: they usually lag a little behind when new version of java becomes GA, but their engine is solid 2017-07-06T08:59:01Z p_l: (most of classpath is licensed from Sun/Oracle) 2017-07-06T08:59:02Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T08:59:46Z offby0 left #lisp 2017-07-06T08:59:53Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:04:12Z BW^-: dim: Erlang is functional so it has no cyclic references? 2017-07-06T09:04:25Z BW^-: shka: reference counting doesn't handle cyclic structures, and i need those 2017-07-06T09:05:49Z BW^-: what i want is basically a cycle detection algorithm that has very little data updating between runs. 2017-07-06T09:06:18Z BW^-: a mark algorithm would fill that same purpose, but marking generally means you wipe the bitmap between runs, i.e. marking has *biig* data updating between runs. 2017-07-06T09:06:25Z BW^-: anyone knows any marking algorithm that does not? 2017-07-06T09:06:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:06:40Z p_l: BW^-: any concurrent marking designed for running for example a tiny bit on every allocation 2017-07-06T09:07:13Z p_l: that's basis for work-oriented RTGC (vs. time oriented, which try to enforce specific run times) 2017-07-06T09:08:29Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T09:12:23Z Grue``: (ql:system-apropos "magick") => ; No value 2017-07-06T09:12:57Z Grue``: hmm, so which imagemagick/graphicsmagick binding lib are people using? 2017-07-06T09:16:50Z Grue``: i really only need resizing (+ getting dimensions of image) but it must support any random jpg/png downloaded from the web 2017-07-06T09:18:05Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T09:21:48Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T09:26:20Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:26:50Z temporal1 is now known as TeMPOraL 2017-07-06T09:28:38Z BW^-: p_l: ? 2017-07-06T09:28:58Z BW^-: p_l: i'm looking for a cycle detection algorithm that doesn't need a marking bitmap, at least not the reconstruction of one on every GC cycle. 2017-07-06T09:29:23Z p_l: BW^-: you don't need to reconstruct one if you can continue the marking process 2017-07-06T09:29:35Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:34:32Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T09:38:10Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-06T09:41:29Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:41:43Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T09:42:25Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T09:42:38Z antoszka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2017-07-06T09:42:53Z antoszka joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:47:33Z marvin3 quit 2017-07-06T09:55:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T09:56:26Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:58:25Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T09:59:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T10:00:16Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:00:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T10:03:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:03:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:06:27Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T10:11:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:14:28Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T10:17:08Z arbv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T10:20:14Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-06T10:24:11Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T10:24:33Z chens quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T10:32:32Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:32:58Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T10:37:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:38:55Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T10:39:41Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:48:52Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:48:52Z BW^- quit (Changing host) 2017-07-06T10:48:52Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T10:55:35Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T11:01:11Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:02:52Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-06T11:14:30Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:14:43Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-06T11:20:43Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:23:16Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:27:40Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T11:28:18Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:30:02Z marvin2 quit 2017-07-06T11:36:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:41:04Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:41:25Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T11:41:58Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T11:54:50Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T11:56:13Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T11:57:00Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T11:59:46Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T12:05:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:05:39Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T12:08:03Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:08:47Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:09:19Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:10:28Z argoneus_ is now known as argoneus 2017-07-06T12:14:49Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:19:53Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T12:23:44Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T12:30:13Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:36:42Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:41:05Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T12:42:20Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:43:45Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T12:45:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:48:38Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T12:53:58Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:54:29Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-06T12:55:14Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T12:59:25Z fkuc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T12:59:47Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:09:02Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:13:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:14:32Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T13:15:54Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:16:36Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-06T13:18:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:18:18Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-06T13:20:44Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T13:21:56Z jedb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T13:22:03Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:22:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T13:25:36Z Xach: Grue``: getting dimensions is very easy and can be done with a few lines of pure lisp. but resizing is obviously more involved. 2017-07-06T13:26:02Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:28:54Z jackdaniel: Grue``: opticl is pure lisp solution for that kind of things 2017-07-06T13:30:41Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/image-info 2017-07-06T13:31:07Z dim uploading latest QL updates to debian 2017-07-06T13:33:52Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:36:47Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/commit/d55b5441ed1fd1f1128e05bc544a340271da42f7 in case someone uses CL in debian and wants to see what's impacted 2017-07-06T13:37:03Z dim: (it's not the whole of QL) 2017-07-06T13:41:06Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:44:44Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T13:44:45Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:44:58Z p_l: minion: memo for BW^-: apparently azul has published full set of patches for linux in 2010 which allow all kind of GC and other optimizations, but they never went in 2017-07-06T13:45:00Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell BW^- when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-07-06T13:45:58Z Bike: what patches does azul need? barrier stuff? 2017-07-06T13:46:25Z p_l: Bike: they implement barriers and batched MMU manipulation kernel side, in order to avoid full context switch 2017-07-06T13:46:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T13:46:55Z p_l: so they provided a way to implement that as loadable kernel modules 2017-07-06T13:48:06Z Bike: neat. 2017-07-06T13:51:33Z Bike: https://lwn.net/Articles/392307/ how skeptical 2017-07-06T13:52:09Z p_l: a lot of C defensiveness ;) 2017-07-06T13:53:08Z Bike: someone in the comments still saying GC is for the lazy, yes 2017-07-06T13:53:23Z Bike: doesn't solve any real problems. memory management mistakes aren't real 2017-07-06T13:54:33Z Bike: of course i have no idea of what kernel politics render plugins for schedulers or MMU dead in the water 2017-07-06T13:56:17Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:02:22Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:03:56Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:05:45Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:08:15Z Guest69116 is now known as X-Scale 2017-07-06T14:08:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:18:11Z dim: oh that's new now: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY: Component ASDF/USER::TRIVIAL-FEATURES not found, required by # ; using QL bundle 2017-07-06T14:19:18Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:23:43Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:23:46Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:24:04Z dim: Xach: it looks like a bug in ql:bundle-systems where it misses a dependency in the chain 2017-07-06T14:24:19Z Xach: dim: hmm! 2017-07-06T14:25:24Z Xach: ohhhh, crud. 2017-07-06T14:25:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:25:28Z Xach: i think i know what the issue is. 2017-07-06T14:25:41Z Xach is probably going to fix it with a brown-paper-bag release 2017-07-06T14:25:45Z dim: I just manually added trivial-features to the list of "top-level" systems, and now I have Component IRONCLAD-SYSTEM::NIBBLES not found, required by # 2017-07-06T14:25:58Z Xach: Yes. The june release probably has a broken systems.txt 2017-07-06T14:26:12Z dim: oh that would explain then 2017-07-06T14:26:13Z Xach: It will work through demand loading but the database is incomplete. 2017-07-06T14:26:23Z Xach: Sorry about that! I will try to fix it today! 2017-07-06T14:26:34Z Xach: I need some safety checks to prevent this, I think it's happened twice now. 2017-07-06T14:26:45Z dim: I guess I can release pgloader with the previous release meanwhile? 2017-07-06T14:27:15Z dim: or previous QL distribution... 2017-07-06T14:29:25Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T14:31:06Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:31:20Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:34:16Z White_Flame: Great quote from the discussion on that LWN page: "Writing a project in C, in most cases, is premature optimization, the root of all evil." 2017-07-06T14:34:42Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T14:34:45Z zchlyg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T14:34:55Z lvo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T14:35:25Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:36:45Z epipping quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:37:09Z rotty joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:40:40Z dim: this must be the most badly quoted quote ever 2017-07-06T14:40:48Z dim: the 3% part is always forgotten about 2017-07-06T14:40:58Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:42:05Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T14:42:45Z White_Flame: yeah, it becomes an exaggeration, and because people only hear the exaggerated version it's taken as a straight statement 2017-07-06T14:45:45Z dim: Xach: is 2017-05-16 known broken too? 2017-07-06T14:45:56Z Xach: dim: not known 2017-07-06T14:47:43Z dim: in my testing it is :/ 2017-07-06T14:48:15Z dim: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY: Component IRONCLAD-SYSTEM::NIBBLES not found, required by # 2017-07-06T14:48:31Z dim: now building againt 2017-04-03 2017-07-06T14:48:56Z dim: (given laptop warmth I think it's going to make it) 2017-07-06T14:49:14Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:49:59Z dim: build passed 2017-07-06T14:51:07Z dim: tests passed 2017-07-06T14:51:08Z Xach: For some reason, when I build the dist from cron, it does not record dependencies properly. If I make a dist release from that build, they are broken in that regard. 2017-07-06T14:51:13Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:51:16Z Xach: I have to do a manual build after the cron build to get it release-worthy. 2017-07-06T14:51:32Z Xach: I can't figure out what differs from cron to manual yet. 2017-07-06T14:51:35Z dim: how much do you depend on your posix env to be correct? 2017-07-06T14:51:51Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:52:00Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:52:00Z Xach: Not much as far as I know. 2017-07-06T14:52:46Z dim: it's usually env variables, then user privileges when you're using different users, and... in our case if manual means SLIME maybe your saved application is using untested code paths? 2017-07-06T14:55:01Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T14:55:41Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T14:57:53Z Xach: My understanding about how it works makes me think there *should* be no difference, but of course, there is, so I've got some understanding wrong. 2017-07-06T14:59:07Z dim: yeah, the classic situation is editing a config file to no avail only to realize you're not editing the config file that's actually used 2017-07-06T14:59:13Z dim: or editing one on another machine, too 2017-07-06T15:03:06Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-06T15:14:04Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-07-06T15:16:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-06T15:17:22Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T15:20:02Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T15:24:55Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T15:29:19Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T15:37:59Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T15:46:28Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T15:49:44Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:03:40Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:05:48Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:10:24Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:11:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:16:03Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-07-06T16:20:48Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:26:01Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:29:06Z nullman joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:29:15Z vh0st- is now known as vhost- 2017-07-06T16:29:21Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:33:16Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:34:27Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:35:55Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T16:36:06Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:36:11Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:37:43Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:38:06Z random_numbers joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:38:35Z random_numbers: What was that pre-configured-for-Lisp emacs someone recommended here before? 2017-07-06T16:38:52Z random_numbers: I unfortunately didn't see fit to bookmark it before. 2017-07-06T16:39:15Z Xach: Portacle, maybe? 2017-07-06T16:39:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:39:49Z Xach: It's pretty easy to configure from scratch these days, too. 2017-07-06T16:39:53Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-06T16:40:02Z Xach: package-install helps in that regard. I use it to get paredit. 2017-07-06T16:41:12Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:43:25Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:43:35Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:43:45Z dim: as the author of el-get, +1 here, and I recommend MELPA ;-) 2017-07-06T16:46:05Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:46:38Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:49:31Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:51:07Z FakePedro quit (Quit: FakePedro) 2017-07-06T16:51:08Z random_numbers: Xach: Ah thanks, that was it. 2017-07-06T16:51:16Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T16:51:33Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:51:50Z random_numbers: I would use MELPA if their inclusion criteria were better. They pull from plain-text transfer sources. :/ 2017-07-06T16:51:57Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:52:34Z random_numbers: I prefer to go the old traditional git-submodule way and check what I install. 2017-07-06T16:52:49Z random_numbers: It proves educative too. :D 2017-07-06T16:52:55Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:54:14Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-06T16:56:23Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T16:58:54Z random_numbers quit (Quit: back a bit later) 2017-07-06T17:00:23Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T17:01:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T17:01:56Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:02:12Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:02:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:03:34Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:06:09Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-06T17:13:54Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T17:21:36Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:22:34Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:25:51Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T17:26:20Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T17:27:55Z shka_: hey folks 2017-07-06T17:27:57Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:28:23Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T17:28:29Z shka_: how to figure out what libraries are loaded with cffi? 2017-07-06T17:28:36Z shka_: namely paths to so files 2017-07-06T17:29:35Z Xach: shka_: which implementation? 2017-07-06T17:29:39Z shka_: ecl 2017-07-06T17:29:44Z Xach does not know 2017-07-06T17:31:24Z shka_: hmmm 2017-07-06T17:31:29Z shka_: and in sbcl? 2017-07-06T17:32:19Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:33:37Z fe[nl]ix: shka_: the openrating system APIs don't allow you to know the actual paths 2017-07-06T17:33:38Z fe[nl]ix: by design 2017-07-06T17:34:07Z fe[nl]ix: you just open "libssl.so" and dlopen() will find it somewhere, but there's no official way of getting back a path 2017-07-06T17:34:25Z shka_: but ffi may store this information 2017-07-06T17:34:39Z fe[nl]ix: so if you're on Linux you can open /proc//maps and see what files are mapped 2017-07-06T17:34:53Z shka_: aaaah, ok, that's nice idea 2017-07-06T17:34:57Z shka_: thanks! 2017-07-06T17:35:00Z fe[nl]ix: shka_: if the OS APIs don't return that information, the FFI can't store it 2017-07-06T17:35:14Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T17:36:19Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:39:40Z ym joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:43:29Z TMA: shka_: that info can be disabled (i think grsecurity patch does that) 2017-07-06T17:44:37Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:45:33Z axion: Does anyone know the Clozure equivalent of (sb-ext:disable-debugger) ? 2017-07-06T17:47:00Z Bike: might not have it? 2017-07-06T17:47:11Z shka_: TMA: will check 2017-07-06T17:47:23Z Bike: you can set debugger-hook, though. maybe 2017-07-06T17:48:35Z axion: Oh hmm 2017-07-06T17:48:57Z Bike: though i don't see how you can use it to unconditionally stop 2017-07-06T17:50:03Z axion: I guess it really doesn't matter. My opengl application has a entry point that's called when ran as a dumped image, instead of interactively...and I set (sb-ext:disable-debugger) there...I guess I won't ever need to dump on other implementations anyway, just that I test with CCL 2017-07-06T17:54:58Z d4ryus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-06T17:59:26Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-06T17:59:26Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:11:24Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:18:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T18:25:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:25:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:27:03Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:27:57Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:31:11Z random_numbers joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:32:01Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:32:40Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:34:14Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:34:38Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-06T18:35:04Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:36:20Z ryanbw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:36:48Z omilu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:37:35Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T18:37:44Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:38:17Z kajo quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T18:38:39Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:39:12Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T18:41:13Z zetax joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:41:50Z zetax: hey is there any straightforward method of getting version number from .asd? 2017-07-06T18:41:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T18:42:21Z Bike: asdf:component-version 2017-07-06T18:42:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:42:43Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:42:58Z Bike: like (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :alexandria)) => "0.0.0" 2017-07-06T18:44:19Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T18:46:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:47:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:47:46Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:48:59Z zetax: it claims it can't find package. specifically I'm trying to get name of package I am working in now. 2017-07-06T18:49:19Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T18:49:23Z zetax: (asdf:component-version :myapp) just says it doesn't exist 2017-07-06T18:49:31Z axion: If your system is findable by asdf, the above will work. 2017-07-06T18:49:33Z beach: zetax: Are you talking about Common Lisp packages or ASDF systems? 2017-07-06T18:49:39Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:50:15Z zetax: it's declared in asdf:defsystem and works 2017-07-06T18:50:32Z beach: So it's a system, not a package. 2017-07-06T18:50:42Z axion: zetax: Packages are just containers of symbols. I believe you want to get the version of a "system". Please learn the difference. 2017-07-06T18:51:08Z zetax: so how do I get version of system? 2017-07-06T18:51:22Z beach: What Bike showed you. 2017-07-06T18:51:33Z axion: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :system-name)) 2017-07-06T18:51:48Z axion: Assuming it has a standard version component defined. 2017-07-06T18:52:01Z zetax: why should I have to search for someting that I know exists by name and I'm literally inside it 2017-07-06T18:52:09Z axion: and that it is registered in asdf's source registry 2017-07-06T18:52:13Z Bike: you're not "inside" any system. 2017-07-06T18:52:19Z Bike: systems are just things you can load and such. 2017-07-06T18:52:55Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-06T18:53:09Z axion: You're inside a package, but packages do not have versions...systems do. You are not "inside" your system. 2017-07-06T18:53:43Z axion: I think it's time to post this again http://weitz.de/packages.html 2017-07-06T18:53:47Z zetax: yes that works, thank you. 2017-07-06T18:54:29Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T18:55:14Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T18:55:17Z beach: zetax: What was it that worked? 2017-07-06T18:55:31Z zetax: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :system-name)) 2017-07-06T18:55:57Z beach: So at first you gave it a package name rather than a system name? 2017-07-06T18:56:41Z axion: At first he thought he could leave out the inner form because he was "inside his system". 2017-07-06T18:56:48Z axion: Hence the link I posted to clear any confusion up 2017-07-06T18:57:00Z beach: Got it. 2017-07-06T18:57:50Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:06:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T19:07:33Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:07:53Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:08:13Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:08:17Z zetax: well some way of calling this or something would be nice. like in java or ecmascript 2017-07-06T19:08:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:08:58Z zetax: or at least leaving the search out. "hey asdf man I know full-well this thingy exists so do it" 2017-07-06T19:09:57Z axion: What is this? 2017-07-06T19:11:14Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:12:37Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T19:14:12Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T19:14:32Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:16:29Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T19:16:46Z hctib is now known as bitch 2017-07-06T19:17:32Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:18:09Z zetax quit (Quit: QUIT) 2017-07-06T19:18:40Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:18:44Z axion: Well, we tried. I take it by his last statement he did not even bother to read the link. 2017-07-06T19:20:41Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:21:25Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:23:03Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:24:33Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T19:25:20Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-06T19:25:24Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:27:19Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:31:12Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:31:46Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T19:32:56Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:35:03Z __paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:36:32Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:39:27Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T19:39:56Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:40:28Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T19:41:13Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:41:30Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:42:25Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T19:44:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:50:07Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:51:23Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:54:41Z DingoSaar quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T19:55:50Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T19:56:07Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-06T19:57:15Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:00:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T20:06:28Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:14:32Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:17:30Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:19:03Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:22:34Z phoe: Minor announcement: I've been trying to coordinate working on CLUS along my normal employment duties, but this turned out to be impossible. It's an exclusive OR. 2017-07-06T20:22:50Z phoe: Not enough hours in the day. 2017-07-06T20:23:04Z axion: :/ 2017-07-06T20:23:47Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:25:13Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T20:25:29Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:25:31Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:28:19Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-06T20:33:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:33:36Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T20:34:55Z procl0 quit (Quit: bye) 2017-07-06T20:43:07Z phoe: I will be reviewing my lifestyle soon and hopefully will change something in this. 2017-07-06T20:44:05Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T20:46:40Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T20:48:46Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:55:52Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:56:00Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T20:56:04Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-07-06T20:56:44Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T20:57:14Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T21:00:48Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:01:38Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T21:03:28Z Xach: 2017-07-06T21:04:30Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:09:40Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:10:05Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:11:50Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:13:20Z phoe: Xach: 2017-07-06T21:13:50Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:14:24Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:23:52Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-06T21:24:33Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:25:23Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:29:08Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:29:56Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:33:09Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:33:09Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T21:33:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:34:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:37:02Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:38:01Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:38:27Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:41:55Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:43:33Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-06T21:45:43Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:47:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:50:22Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:52:56Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-06T21:53:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:54:58Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T21:55:45Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:55:53Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-06T21:56:52Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:00:55Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-06T22:01:26Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T22:03:21Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T22:05:27Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:08:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:10:57Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:12:36Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:12:51Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:15:31Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:17:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:17:32Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:19:22Z lxpz quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-06T22:19:41Z lxpz joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:19:45Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:20:46Z Baggers` joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:20:53Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T22:20:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:21:00Z Baggers` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T22:21:09Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:25:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:29:16Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T22:29:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:30:22Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-06T22:31:35Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-06T22:32:27Z knusbaum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:33:48Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:35:03Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:36:48Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:38:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:41:42Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-06T22:44:38Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:45:51Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:47:11Z sucks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T22:47:29Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-06T22:47:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:47:31Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-06T22:47:53Z Ven is now known as Guest56511 2017-07-06T22:56:00Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:56:07Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-07-06T22:57:32Z beaky quit (Quit: WeebChat 1.8) 2017-07-06T22:58:02Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:02:42Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:03:17Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-06T23:06:06Z DingoSaar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T23:08:22Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:12:17Z sucks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T23:12:24Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:16:23Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-06T23:17:42Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:22:35Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:26:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:26:37Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:26:58Z sucks_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T23:28:03Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:29:51Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:30:28Z beaky joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:31:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-06T23:32:19Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T23:32:20Z Xach: well, today from cron it worked fine. puzzling. 2017-07-06T23:32:47Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:37:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T23:38:04Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:38:10Z dim: how do you test/ 2017-07-06T23:38:54Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:40:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:40:40Z sucks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-06T23:41:34Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:41:47Z Xach: dim: I think it is a case of image vs filesystem state. 2017-07-06T23:42:01Z Xach: dim: i made a change to a function but didn't compile, but my cron job compiles each time. 2017-07-06T23:42:06Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:42:12Z Xach: (that is my guess) 2017-07-06T23:43:43Z Xach: dim: i test by adding a new post-build report that complains loudly if there aren't proper system deps 2017-07-06T23:43:46Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-06T23:45:27Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:46:20Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T23:48:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-06T23:48:41Z dim: oh, image vs sources, gotcha 2017-07-06T23:48:51Z dim: test: my fear is obviously that your test pass and my build fails 2017-07-06T23:49:36Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T23:51:19Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:01:57Z Guest56511 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T00:03:56Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2017-07-07T00:08:29Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:19:48Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T00:27:01Z dpg joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:28:28Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:29:39Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-07T00:39:27Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T00:42:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T00:43:08Z Xach: hmm, common-lisp.net svn does not update for me right now 2017-07-07T00:43:22Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T00:43:44Z Xach: can you "svn co svn://common-lisp.net/project/py-configparser/svn/trunk"? 2017-07-07T00:44:54Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:45:15Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-07T00:45:18Z dim: Connection refused 2017-07-07T00:45:39Z random_numbers: Network is unreachable. 2017-07-07T00:45:49Z Xach: I get "network is unreachable" 2017-07-07T00:46:01Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T00:46:40Z dim: in full I have svn: E000061: Can't connect to host 'common-lisp.net': Connection refused 2017-07-07T00:47:37Z Xach: easye: any tips? 2017-07-07T00:48:52Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T00:49:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:50:31Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:51:48Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T00:53:28Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:53:51Z random_numbers: Trim the older logs and reset the server. 2017-07-07T00:54:14Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T00:55:35Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T01:01:06Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2017-07-07T01:07:13Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T01:11:34Z dpg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T01:14:58Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-07T01:29:42Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T01:31:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T01:31:52Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2017-07-07T01:39:10Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T01:39:48Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-07T01:59:48Z sucks_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T02:00:01Z andchat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T02:01:31Z DingoSaar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T02:02:12Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:11:44Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-07T02:13:57Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:18:12Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:20:12Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:24:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T02:36:18Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:37:16Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:43:46Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T02:45:09Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:50:20Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-07T02:51:12Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T02:51:16Z argoneus quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-07-07T02:52:25Z argoneus joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:53:19Z Zotan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T02:57:51Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T03:00:43Z mfiano quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T03:00:53Z vtomole: beach:Morning 2017-07-07T03:00:56Z vtomole: beach 2017-07-07T03:01:15Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:02:08Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:05:04Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T03:06:54Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:07:01Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T03:07:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:09:23Z varuaa joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:11:43Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T03:21:32Z procl0 quit (Quit: bye) 2017-07-07T03:23:56Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-07T03:34:05Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-07T03:41:48Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:49:22Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-07-07T03:51:09Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T03:51:48Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T03:53:39Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:55:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T03:57:00Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T03:57:29Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T03:57:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:01:34Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T04:03:15Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:05:06Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:09:06Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T04:09:56Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:12:05Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:12:49Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/) 2017-07-07T04:13:02Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:13:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:13:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:16:28Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T04:23:21Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:25:05Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T04:25:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:25:34Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:25:39Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:27:12Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T04:28:40Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:29:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:39:36Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:40:15Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:42:09Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T04:43:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:43:48Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:44:14Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:44:47Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:45:33Z neoncon__ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T04:47:48Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:49:20Z neoncont_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:49:40Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:53:03Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-07T04:58:54Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T05:01:38Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:02:48Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:03:04Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:05:49Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T05:07:13Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:07:53Z Guest9248 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:08:17Z Guest6344 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T05:24:29Z neoncon__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T05:25:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:25:31Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T05:26:34Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:29:19Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T05:29:41Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:35:37Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T05:35:58Z wildbartty joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:36:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:37:39Z wildbartty quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T05:37:56Z wildbartty joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:38:12Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:43:15Z wildbartty quit (Quit: Going to bed) 2017-07-07T05:43:49Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T05:45:24Z chens joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:45:25Z random_numbers quit (Quit: Onwards to doing stuff...) 2017-07-07T05:47:29Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:47:44Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T05:48:28Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:48:41Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T05:51:43Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T05:54:07Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T05:56:15Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:01:13Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-07T06:04:49Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:08:09Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T06:11:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:13:42Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-07T06:14:07Z Guest9248 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:20:50Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:28:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:29:23Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T06:36:35Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:37:26Z loke` joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:38:05Z tapioco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:38:05Z mnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:38:05Z pacon_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:38:23Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T06:38:24Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:38:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:38:52Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:38:59Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:39:05Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:39:05Z zuz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:39:05Z ineiros_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:39:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:39:44Z phadthai joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:39:46Z ineiros joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:39:52Z zuz joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:40:05Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:40:10Z larsen joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:40:26Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:40:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:41:05Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:41:13Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:41:32Z tapioco joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:41:40Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:42:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:42:09Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:42:28Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:42:32Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:42:49Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:42:56Z kushal is now known as Guest36598 2017-07-07T06:43:16Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:43:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:44:04Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:44:25Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:45:13Z Guest36598 is now known as kushal 2017-07-07T06:45:21Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-07-07T06:45:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:45:45Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:46:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:46:35Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:46:49Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:46:57Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:47:22Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:47:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:53:58Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:59:06Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T06:59:15Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:59:31Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:03:33Z pacon_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:14:19Z salva joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:18:34Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:19:16Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:26:24Z KingMeow joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:42:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:46:41Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T07:48:21Z lanu quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-07T07:48:28Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:50:01Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:50:26Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-07T07:53:34Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T07:53:41Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T08:09:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:12:54Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:14:09Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T08:18:31Z scottj left #lisp 2017-07-07T08:24:28Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:25:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:28:56Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:29:48Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:31:24Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:32:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:33:40Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:34:21Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:35:30Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:36:24Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:37:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:40:57Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:42:58Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:43:08Z chens quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:45:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:47:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:49:02Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:49:14Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:51:08Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:53:44Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:54:26Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T08:56:33Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T08:58:42Z drmeister: Does anyone have a suggestion for portably determining a reasonable number of threads to spawn on a particular system? 2017-07-07T08:59:16Z drmeister: Alternatively I'll just read PJOBS from the environment 2017-07-07T09:00:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:00:58Z drdo: drmeister: Portable I don't know, but there's plenty of ways for each system 2017-07-07T09:01:32Z drdo: You could just write a little function that supports the common systems and has a default for unknown systems 2017-07-07T09:03:41Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T09:04:44Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:06:56Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: PJOBS ? 2017-07-07T09:07:02Z drmeister: I parallelized Clasp's static analyzer using the multi-threading functionality I recently added as well as a non-blocking concurrent multi-producer/multi-consumer queue implemented in C++ and exposed within Clasp. 2017-07-07T09:07:19Z drmeister: I use PJOBS in the build system 2017-07-07T09:07:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:08:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:08:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-07T09:08:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:10:52Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: https://github.com/hyperic/sigar 2017-07-07T09:11:07Z fe[nl]ix: that library is amazing 2017-07-07T09:11:13Z fe[nl]ix: if you like its licence 2017-07-07T09:11:25Z fe[nl]ix: Apache2 2017-07-07T09:13:02Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:16:31Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:17:16Z drmeister: Hmm, the web page won't open 2017-07-07T09:17:17Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:17:53Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:18:00Z fe[nl]ix: lol, did you block javascript ? 2017-07-07T09:18:44Z fe[nl]ix: you mean http://sigar.hyperic.com/ ? 2017-07-07T09:19:53Z Grue`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T09:20:24Z alanpearce joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:20:58Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:23:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T09:24:15Z alanpearce quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T09:33:05Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:33:45Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:33:55Z KingMeow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T09:45:28Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:47:22Z omilu joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:48:05Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T09:48:24Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-07T09:50:00Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:50:48Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:54:42Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:56:37Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-07T09:57:14Z _death joined #lisp 2017-07-07T10:00:23Z Fade: /me waves 2017-07-07T10:00:35Z Fade , too 2017-07-07T10:13:34Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-07T10:15:33Z andchat quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T10:18:12Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T10:23:24Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-07T10:24:12Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T10:24:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T10:24:34Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-07T10:35:13Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T10:35:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T10:36:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T10:37:06Z fe[nl]ix: Fade: hey, what's up ? 2017-07-07T10:37:20Z fe[nl]ix: where are you nowadays ? 2017-07-07T10:43:55Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T10:44:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T10:45:06Z loke`: hello fenlix 2017-07-07T10:45:34Z lanu quit (Quit: reboot) 2017-07-07T10:46:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T10:47:23Z fe[nl]ix: hi loke` 2017-07-07T10:50:40Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T10:55:20Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T10:59:35Z dim: drdo: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-cpus/ made it to latest QL release 2017-07-07T11:00:17Z drdo: dim: Yeah that's the kind of thing I meant 2017-07-07T11:02:03Z dim: oh and that was for drmeister actually... 2017-07-07T11:02:16Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:04:57Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T11:07:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T11:08:10Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:08:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:09:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:10:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:12:58Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T11:16:22Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:22:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:22:33Z phoe: Xach: I have a question about SKIPPY 2017-07-07T11:22:54Z phoe: Does it have any functionality for "flattening" GIF frames? 2017-07-07T11:23:25Z phoe: Like, image is 100x100, its first frame is 100x100, its second frame is 50x50 with offset (25,25). 2017-07-07T11:23:56Z phoe: I'd like to turn the second frame into a 100x100 frame that consists of the first frame and second frame "merged", "flattened" together. 2017-07-07T11:26:48Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T11:26:52Z Xach: phoe: I have used it for that 2017-07-07T11:27:57Z Xach: phoe: http://xach.com/lisp/skippy/#composite for example 2017-07-07T11:28:11Z Xach: phoe: i don't remember if it dtrt with transparency though. 2017-07-07T11:34:08Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:35:13Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:35:24Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:42:05Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:45:39Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T11:51:32Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:52:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T11:56:25Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T11:56:50Z j0ni_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-07T11:58:31Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T11:59:14Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:04:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:05:10Z zooey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T12:06:07Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:06:59Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:07:27Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:09:24Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:12:58Z standard_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:14:52Z andchat quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:15:22Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T12:18:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:19:01Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:23:20Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:26:13Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:26:21Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:27:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:29:12Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T12:32:00Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:35:40Z standard_ is now known as andchat 2017-07-07T12:37:50Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:38:47Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T12:39:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:45:04Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:49:42Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:50:09Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:52:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:53:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:54:35Z mfiano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T12:54:44Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:55:02Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-07T12:55:30Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:57:19Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:57:48Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:57:48Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T12:58:57Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:00:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:02:28Z Xach: phoe: did it work? 2017-07-07T13:03:46Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:05:32Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:06:41Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:17:33Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:17:49Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T13:21:47Z NingaLeaf joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:22:16Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T13:22:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:22:44Z rotty joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:23:31Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:25:20Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:26:05Z NingaLeaf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:33:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:34:08Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:35:39Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:36:31Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:37:21Z Xach: beach, jackdaniel: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-07/failure-report/mcclim.html#mcclim-raster-image 2017-07-07T13:37:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:38:10Z beach: Xach: Thanks! 2017-07-07T13:39:04Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:40:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:40:22Z jackdaniel: Xach: thanks, looking at it now 2017-07-07T13:41:33Z FakePedro quit (Quit: FakePedro) 2017-07-07T13:41:51Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:44:26Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:45:48Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T13:46:28Z jackdaniel: Xach: could you try now? (pushed change hopefully fixing the issue) 2017-07-07T13:46:43Z Xach: jackdaniel: will try soon and report results 2017-07-07T13:47:04Z jackdaniel: alright 2017-07-07T13:48:13Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:50:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T13:56:49Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T13:58:13Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T13:59:24Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T14:00:49Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:01:20Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:01:24Z Xach: Looks good! 2017-07-07T14:02:17Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:02:29Z jackdaniel: \o/ 2017-07-07T14:02:29Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:03:05Z Xach: |3b|: is 3bgl-shader good for quicklisp? 2017-07-07T14:03:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T14:10:59Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T14:11:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:17:49Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:19:17Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:20:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T14:20:34Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T14:22:59Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:24:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T14:25:30Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:27:08Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T14:33:49Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:37:38Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T14:40:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:40:41Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T14:41:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:42:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T14:51:56Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T14:55:04Z phoe: Xach: I am in no position to test it yet 2017-07-07T14:55:07Z phoe: I will most likely do it tomorrow 2017-07-07T14:56:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T14:57:43Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-07T15:04:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:07:18Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T15:07:43Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-07T15:09:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T15:10:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T15:12:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:20:38Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:21:21Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T15:21:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:22:08Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T15:23:57Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T15:24:28Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:25:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T15:26:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:27:58Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T15:35:29Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T15:42:41Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T15:48:33Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:49:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:53:15Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:55:46Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T15:56:30Z Fade: fe[nl]ix: sorry, got waylaid by my kid and didn't see your reply. Things are good. :) 2017-07-07T15:56:42Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-07T15:56:51Z knusbaum quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T15:59:39Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-07T16:00:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T16:01:01Z j0ni joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:02:42Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:03:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:04:59Z phoe: oh, so with this 2017-07-07T16:06:04Z phoe: starting with N = 1, I a) copy frame N, b) grab frame N+1, c) destructively compose frame N+1 onto the copy of N, d) the copy of N becomes the new N+1. 2017-07-07T16:06:10Z phoe: Xach: is this more or less correct? 2017-07-07T16:06:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:08:26Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:09:35Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T16:11:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:12:00Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T16:13:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:14:08Z nimiux_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:14:13Z nimiux_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T16:14:21Z nimiux quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-07T16:14:42Z nimiux joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:21:19Z fe[nl]ix: Fade: still in Toronto ? 2017-07-07T16:23:17Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-07T16:28:07Z Xach: phoe: you could make a fresh accumulator frame also 2017-07-07T16:28:33Z phoe: Xach: what do you mean, fresh accumulator frame? 2017-07-07T16:28:44Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:29:13Z phoe: Frame X needs to be a composite of all frames 1..X-1, and that's how I can assure this constraint 2017-07-07T16:29:31Z phoe: and the original X 2017-07-07T16:29:43Z phoe: so actually X' = composite(1..X) 2017-07-07T16:30:10Z phoe: or X' = composite(X-1', X) 2017-07-07T16:30:11Z Xach: phoe: I mean using make-image to produce a new frame that is not taken from one of the existing frames. 2017-07-07T16:30:21Z phoe: oh, yes - that's what I want to do 2017-07-07T16:30:23Z Xach: If you think you have something that works, try it 2017-07-07T16:30:33Z phoe: I will - just, I'm swamped with stuff 2017-07-07T16:30:36Z phoe: I'll try to find some time for it. 2017-07-07T16:32:09Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:33:49Z phoe: Is there a CFFI tool that will crawl across a whole C header file and automatically define in Lisp all C variables and functions encountered there? 2017-07-07T16:34:20Z phoe: So I can go (include "foo.h") instead of manually DEFCFUNing N times? 2017-07-07T16:34:29Z _death: autowrap 2017-07-07T16:34:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T16:35:35Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T16:36:26Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T16:37:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:39:11Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T16:39:25Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:40:50Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:41:24Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T16:47:15Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-07T16:47:49Z phoe: _death: does the resulting binary depend on clang? or is this used only during compilation time? 2017-07-07T16:49:21Z _death: it says (in bold) "Neither c2ffi, nor any compiler (or even .h files!) are necessary for your users!" 2017-07-07T16:49:40Z phoe: oh 2017-07-07T16:49:48Z phoe: haha, me not reading READMEs fuly 2017-07-07T16:49:50Z phoe: fully 2017-07-07T16:50:17Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T16:54:17Z Fade: fe[nl]ix: aye. I am. 2017-07-07T16:55:27Z drcode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T16:56:23Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T16:56:31Z axion: Xach: 3bgl-shader is good for quicklisp. 3b and I did a lot of work recently to ensure it is ready and well tested 2017-07-07T16:56:50Z Xach: axion: cool 2017-07-07T17:02:00Z mingus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:03:51Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:04:47Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:06:28Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T17:07:25Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-07T17:09:52Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:14:18Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:16:39Z oystewh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T17:18:03Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:19:14Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:19:49Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:21:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:21:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:22:39Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:23:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:26:02Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:26:30Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:30:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:31:18Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:37:48Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:38:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T17:40:46Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-07T17:41:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:42:40Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:43:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:43:44Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-07T17:43:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:49:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:50:25Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:50:53Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:51:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:53:58Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:54:03Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:54:15Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:57:07Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:57:10Z nirved quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T17:57:13Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:57:14Z phoe: Anyone who has autowrap and lzma-dev on linux installed: can you help me figure out why (autowrap:c-include "/usr/include/lzma/LzmaEnc.h") fails? 2017-07-07T17:57:24Z xyh joined #lisp 2017-07-07T17:57:25Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T17:58:03Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/0TmJKZxz <- that's what using c2ffi manually tells me. 2017-07-07T18:00:12Z xyh: I am testing lisp (and scheme) debug repl by 'kill -SEGV '. 2017-07-07T18:00:38Z Bike: const long __c2ffi_NULL = NULL; seems kind of bizarre, but i don't know autowrap 2017-07-07T18:00:48Z xyh: it seems not many scheme have debug repl 2017-07-07T18:01:09Z Bike: a debug repl as in a way to recover from segfault? 2017-07-07T18:01:20Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:02:00Z xyh: yes 2017-07-07T18:02:18Z xyh: to let you debug segfault 2017-07-07T18:02:24Z xyh: not recover 2017-07-07T18:03:11Z Bike: so... you want to see what, information about the bad access, a backtrace? 2017-07-07T18:03:38Z shka_: Bike: can i actually see backtrace? 2017-07-07T18:03:57Z Bike: from a segfault? sometimes 2017-07-07T18:04:05Z shka_: how can i do that? 2017-07-07T18:04:28Z Bike: uh, get one and see what happens, i guess 2017-07-07T18:04:39Z Bike: in a lisp system a segfault usually means an internal error or a problem in cffi cod 2017-07-07T18:04:40Z Bike: e 2017-07-07T18:04:58Z shka_: yeah, sorry, i was unspecific 2017-07-07T18:05:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:05:15Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:05:21Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:05:27Z xyh: lisp implementations handle them well 2017-07-07T18:05:38Z shka_: i was thinking about debugging faulty library loaded with CFFI 2017-07-07T18:06:12Z shka_: i was under impression that it is not possible with lisp alone 2017-07-07T18:06:17Z Bike: off the top of my head i know sbcl has a handler for sigsegv. i would guess ccl does as well, considering how related to objc interop it is 2017-07-07T18:06:22Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-07T18:06:30Z shka_: yes it has 2017-07-07T18:06:38Z shka_: but it won't show C stack ofc 2017-07-07T18:06:56Z Bike: ah, well, i'd just use g/lldb like normal 2017-07-07T18:07:03Z shka_: ah, ok 2017-07-07T18:07:24Z shka_: it's fine, I just thought that I am doing it all wrong since ever 2017-07-07T18:07:35Z shka_: ;-) 2017-07-07T18:07:38Z xyh: testing them with 'kill -SEGV ' is interesting 2017-07-07T18:07:55Z xyh: sbcl and ccl all handle it well 2017-07-07T18:08:12Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:08:23Z xyh: chez also can handle it 2017-07-07T18:08:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:08:40Z xyh: ruby is funny ~ 2017-07-07T18:08:45Z Bike: what do they other schemes do, just the default crap? 2017-07-07T18:10:43Z xyh: guile, larceny, scheme48, do not handle it. 2017-07-07T18:10:44Z xyh: racket, chicken, know about it. 2017-07-07T18:11:30Z xyh: but I think the right way to handle it is a debug repl. 2017-07-07T18:11:55Z Bike: well, yes, there's no reason to kill the process 2017-07-07T18:12:17Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:12:28Z xyh: yes 2017-07-07T18:13:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:14:00Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:19:45Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T18:20:15Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:21:33Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:21:33Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:23:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T18:24:07Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T18:24:41Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:26:27Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:28:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-07T18:28:24Z xyh: it is hard to implement signal handler well (specially when we have cffi) :: http://fars.ee/7x-j 2017-07-07T18:28:34Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-07T18:28:49Z Bike: i was trying to figure out what sbcl was doing, and could not 2017-07-07T18:30:28Z xyh: due to the stdio IO cache of libc ... I guess we just going into nested debug repl. 2017-07-07T18:31:43Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:31:47Z Bike: i mean, i don't think it runs the repl inside the handler 2017-07-07T18:31:47Z Bike: would be non reentrant to say the least... 2017-07-07T18:32:05Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:34:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:34:48Z xyh: a handler can set a flag and exit, the flag can be checked by lisp runtime. 2017-07-07T18:34:55Z Bike: right. 2017-07-07T18:35:36Z bit_lySLH2uSZHed joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:36:36Z phoe: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/issues/77 <- I will actually prefer to autowrap the LZMA headers because of the giant mass of types that are declared in its Types.h 2017-07-07T18:36:49Z phoe: And including Types.h seems to error the same way. 2017-07-07T18:37:07Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:37:33Z bit_lySLH2uSZHed quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T18:40:09Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:40:43Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:40:43Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-07T18:40:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T18:41:44Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:42:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:44:19Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T18:45:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:45:23Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:45:48Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:46:35Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:50:03Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T18:50:46Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:51:41Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T18:51:43Z xyh left #lisp 2017-07-07T18:52:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:52:17Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-07T18:56:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T18:58:51Z tfeb quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-07T18:59:53Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:02:13Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T19:02:18Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T19:03:11Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T19:03:39Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:03:45Z bit_lySLH2uSZHed joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:05:34Z szmer joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:05:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:05:50Z bit_lySLH2uSZHed left #lisp 2017-07-07T19:05:56Z xyh joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:06:28Z neoncont_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T19:07:12Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T19:07:42Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:08:36Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:10:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:11:43Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T19:12:08Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T19:12:12Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:12:49Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:13:42Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T19:16:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T19:20:21Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:28:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:28:22Z Xach: hej dim!! 2017-07-07T19:33:34Z dim: yeah? 2017-07-07T19:33:54Z Xach: dim: i am about to publish an alpha with updated metadata and a few updated libraries 2017-07-07T19:34:04Z Xach: it may be useful for build testing? 2017-07-07T19:34:30Z Xach: for pgloader, that is. 2017-07-07T19:34:34Z dim: an alpha of what? 2017-07-07T19:34:48Z Xach: dim: the quicklisp dist 2017-07-07T19:34:49Z dim: an alpha release of QL? 2017-07-07T19:35:02Z Xach: dim: it is a version of the quicklisp dist that is a kind of snapshot of what's working today... 2017-07-07T19:35:06Z dim: ah yes, want me to try building pgloader as a bundle with it? 2017-07-07T19:35:13Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2014/01/a-dist-for-testing.html 2017-07-07T19:35:25Z Xach: dim: sure, it would help determine if the metadata is working as it should. 2017-07-07T19:36:04Z dim: let's have a look 2017-07-07T19:36:41Z Xach: (it isn't fully uploaded yet) 2017-07-07T19:36:54Z dim: given pgloader local checkout you can just make clean; make bundle to create a tarball, then extract it somewhere, cd there and type make to see the success/failure 2017-07-07T19:37:11Z dim: the only thing to edit, if you wanted to try, is https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/bundle/ql.lisp 2017-07-07T19:37:14Z dim: I'm doing that now 2017-07-07T19:37:34Z Xach: ok, cool 2017-07-07T19:37:38Z dim: (it seems pdftk is broken here anyway) 2017-07-07T19:38:40Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:38:49Z dim: the download phase looks good already 2017-07-07T19:38:57Z dim: (the broken dists won't download much) 2017-07-07T19:39:33Z Xach: ok, the alpha is now fully published 2017-07-07T19:39:45Z dim: bundle done, building 2017-07-07T19:39:51Z dim: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY: 2017-07-07T19:39:51Z dim: Component :MD5 not found, required by # 2017-07-07T19:41:26Z Xach: dim: hmm. did you disable the "quicklisp" dist? 2017-07-07T19:41:48Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:41:59Z andchat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T19:43:15Z dim: ahah, didn't, retrying 2017-07-07T19:43:56Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-07T19:46:24Z dim: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY: 2017-07-07T19:46:25Z dim: Component ASDF/USER::TRIVIAL-FEATURES not found, required by # 2017-07-07T19:46:31Z dim: here's what I get this time 2017-07-07T19:49:10Z Xach: dim: hmm. 2017-07-07T19:50:38Z Xach: dim: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "trivial-features")? 2017-07-07T19:50:54Z Xach: oops, that shouldn't work. 2017-07-07T19:51:04Z DingoSAL joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:51:08Z Xach: or should it? 2017-07-07T19:51:10Z Xach confuses himself 2017-07-07T19:54:28Z DingoSaar_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T19:55:40Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T19:56:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:56:35Z DingoSAL quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T19:57:03Z DingoSAL joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:58:58Z DingoSAL quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T19:59:17Z DingoSaar joined #lisp 2017-07-07T19:59:33Z cods quit (Changing host) 2017-07-07T19:59:33Z cods joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:00:30Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T20:01:41Z dim: oops, back, let's see 2017-07-07T20:01:58Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:01:59Z dim: you want to evaluate that from the bundled systems I guess? 2017-07-07T20:02:41Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T20:02:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T20:04:31Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:04:34Z dim: from the bundle of course Package QL does not exist. 2017-07-07T20:04:50Z dim: from the environment that prepares the bundle, it's again different from my usual REPL 2017-07-07T20:05:13Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T20:06:58Z dim: and it's NIL in the bundle environment 2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: (ql-dist:disable (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")) 2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: (ql-dist:install-dist *ql-dist* :prompt nil :replace t) 2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: ;; (ql:bundle-systems '("pgloader" "buildapp") :to *bundle-dir*) 2017-07-07T20:07:07Z dim: (format *standard-output* "~a~%" (ql:where-is-system "trivial-features")) 2017-07-07T20:07:22Z dim: I'm doing that in ql.lisp file which I --load with SBCL 2017-07-07T20:08:23Z Xach: dim: Can you share a backtrace? I tried to build locally but I'm missing some dylibs. 2017-07-07T20:10:19Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T20:11:02Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-07T20:11:27Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:12:10Z dim: ah yeah dylibs, forgot about that, sorry 2017-07-07T20:12:18Z dim: I don't have a backtrace, it just says nil 2017-07-07T20:13:50Z dim: brew install freetds might get you running, sqlite3 is in macosx itself and openssl too IIRC 2017-07-07T20:14:21Z Xach: ok 2017-07-07T20:17:08Z procl0 quit (Quit: bye) 2017-07-07T20:19:22Z timdorohin_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:22:12Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T20:28:52Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T20:30:09Z dim away now, good luck! 2017-07-07T20:30:31Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:35:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:38:44Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:45:14Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T20:45:26Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-07T20:46:23Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:47:00Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:48:54Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:49:22Z desertm0nk joined #lisp 2017-07-07T20:50:53Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:02:14Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:03:34Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T21:06:51Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:10:13Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:10:51Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T21:11:31Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:12:44Z raydeejay quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:14:52Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:16:21Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:17:31Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:42Z alice_bot__ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:43Z alice_bot1_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:43Z alice_bot3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:43Z alice_bot2_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:43Z alice_bot5_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:43Z alice_bot4_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:44Z alice_bot11 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:44Z alice_bot6_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:44Z alice_bot8_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:44Z alice_bot10 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:44Z alice_bot12 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:44Z alice_bot7_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:44Z alice_bot9_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:45Z alice_bot16 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:45Z alice_bot18 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:45Z alice_bot13 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:45Z alice_bot17 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:45Z alice_bot20 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:45Z alice_bot15 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:45Z alice_bot19 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:46Z alice_bot14 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:46Z alice_bot21 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:46Z alice_bot23 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:46Z alice_bot22 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:46Z alice_bot24 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:19:55Z alice_bot__: * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * 2017-07-07T21:19:55Z alice_bot1_: g g 2017-07-07T21:19:55Z alice_bot3_: a| | | | a 2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot4_: t| `. | | : t 2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot5_: s` | | | | s 2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot6_: e | / / \ --__ \ : e 2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot7_: x / _--~~ ~--__| | x 2017-07-07T21:19:56Z alice_bot8_: * _-~ ~-_ | * 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot8_ quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot23 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot18 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot13 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot3_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot20 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot21 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot15 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot10 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot5_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot__ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z timdorohin_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot16 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot11 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot6_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot1_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot9_: g _ _.--------.______| | g 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot24 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot19 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot14 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot9_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot4_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot22 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot17 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot12 quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot7_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:19:57Z alice_bot2_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-07T21:22:10Z djgera joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:22:49Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:26:04Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:30:40Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T21:31:32Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T21:32:17Z knusbaum quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:32:46Z nydel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T21:36:52Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:40:41Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:41:32Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T21:41:53Z djgera quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:42:50Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T21:43:06Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:44:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:45:06Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:47:21Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T21:47:27Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:47:44Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:48:48Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:52:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:52:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-07T21:52:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:52:41Z Merv__ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:54:43Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T21:55:48Z bgg_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:56:00Z bgg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T21:56:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:57:21Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-07T21:58:02Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-07T21:58:12Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T22:07:06Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:07:57Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T22:13:57Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:17:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:22:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T22:23:39Z desertm0nk quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-07T22:27:59Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-07T22:28:02Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:31:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:31:31Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:34:11Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:37:04Z florentine joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:37:21Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T22:38:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-07T22:52:25Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:55:13Z j0ni quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-07T22:55:20Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T22:55:22Z j0ni joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:55:30Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-07T22:58:26Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-07T22:59:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-07T23:01:50Z xyh quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0.1/20170630112252]) 2017-07-07T23:01:54Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T23:05:40Z salva quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T23:09:01Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T23:12:56Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T23:16:12Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T23:17:50Z szmer quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-07T23:17:59Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-07T23:18:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T23:18:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-07T23:22:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T23:22:58Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-07T23:25:34Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T23:27:25Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-07T23:28:52Z kuneco joined #lisp 2017-07-07T23:29:11Z kuneco left #lisp 2017-07-07T23:32:02Z DingoSaar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T23:35:10Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T23:37:25Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-07T23:41:35Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T23:46:19Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-07T23:52:00Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:00:35Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T00:00:37Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:09:17Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:11:02Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:12:06Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:13:19Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:13:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:16:27Z flavio81 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:18:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:23:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T00:28:40Z flavio81 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T00:32:06Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:34:04Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T00:35:22Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T00:39:43Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:41:33Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T00:42:14Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T00:42:46Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-08T00:48:57Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-08T00:52:11Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T00:59:34Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:02:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:02:32Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T01:03:26Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T01:03:37Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T01:03:49Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:05:53Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:07:12Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:07:27Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T01:10:26Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T01:10:58Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:11:06Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:15:30Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T01:16:35Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T01:19:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:22:56Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T01:24:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T01:25:19Z random_numbers joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:26:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-08T01:27:51Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:29:24Z andchat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T01:36:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T01:39:47Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-07-08T01:41:24Z procl0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-08T01:46:54Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-08T01:47:52Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:03:53Z bgg_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:04:41Z bgg_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T02:04:57Z stapler joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:20:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:24:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:25:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T02:26:13Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:29:24Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:33:20Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T02:35:11Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T02:36:29Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T02:39:57Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:41:43Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T02:57:22Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T02:57:22Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T02:58:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-08T03:00:52Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T03:01:53Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-08T03:02:40Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T03:04:30Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T03:10:40Z o`connor_ quit (Quit: https://irssi.org/2017/07/07/irssi-1.0.4-released/) 2017-07-08T03:11:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-08T03:11:16Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T03:15:54Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-08T03:20:56Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-08T03:21:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T03:28:00Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-08T03:28:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T03:30:15Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T03:30:38Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T03:30:43Z florentine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T03:33:58Z gremly quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T03:36:04Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T03:36:43Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-08T03:41:34Z andchat joined #lisp 2017-07-08T03:59:36Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:01:13Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:01:19Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:05:36Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T04:07:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:09:25Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:09:57Z yangby joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:10:51Z yangby quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T04:11:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:14:47Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:18:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:18:29Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:20:11Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:21:34Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:22:20Z gremly joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:23:54Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:24:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:26:30Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:29:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:33:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:35:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:42:24Z mfiano_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:42:29Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T04:43:40Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T04:45:33Z mfiano quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:45:50Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:46:54Z mfiano_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T04:48:01Z vtomole_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T04:48:05Z vtomole_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T04:59:00Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-08T05:19:12Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:22:16Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-08T05:25:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:27:01Z Doukeshi joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:27:28Z Doukeshi quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-08T05:28:41Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:28:43Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-08T05:29:24Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:30:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T05:32:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:32:34Z Doukeshi joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:32:59Z Doukeshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T05:34:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T05:35:03Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:45:17Z Doukeshi joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:45:21Z Doukeshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T05:47:14Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:48:05Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T05:48:14Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:48:25Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T05:51:44Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:53:48Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:53:54Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T05:55:33Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:56:01Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-08T05:56:33Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T05:56:40Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-08T05:58:59Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:02:05Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T06:03:19Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:03:19Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T06:03:28Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-08T06:05:37Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:05:45Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-08T06:09:06Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:09:23Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-08T06:10:14Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:14:41Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T06:16:36Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:26:24Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:27:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T06:33:31Z d4ryus2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-08T06:34:48Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T06:40:16Z random_numbers quit (Quit: later) 2017-07-08T06:45:17Z ed41n joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:51:36Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T06:52:16Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T06:52:36Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-08T06:55:58Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-07-08T07:00:54Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T07:00:56Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T07:01:38Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:02:14Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:02:14Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T07:02:15Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-08T07:03:20Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-08T07:06:20Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T07:07:49Z mingus1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T07:10:38Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T07:11:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T07:14:04Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:14:37Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:16:07Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-08T07:18:00Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:18:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:18:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:19:27Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T07:19:34Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:33:58Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:33:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:34:41Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T07:35:21Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:38:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:39:31Z drmeister: What are peoples feelings about thread safe hash tables? Do you think WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR should lock the hash table for thread safe hash tables? 2017-07-08T07:41:19Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-08T07:47:36Z beach: drmeister: That might be tricky. 2017-07-08T07:47:58Z beach: drmeister: At what point in WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR would you lock? 2017-07-08T07:49:22Z beach: drmeister: You need to specify what the Common Lisp HyperSpec leaves unspecified. 2017-07-08T07:49:37Z beach: "It is unspecified what happens if any of the implicit interior state of an iteration is returned outside the dynamic extent of the with-hash-table-iterator form such as by returning some closure over the invocation form." 2017-07-08T07:50:14Z Bike: that doesn't seem related? 2017-07-08T07:52:10Z beach: Sure, if the answer is "don't do it; all hell will break loose", then it is fine to lock during the dynamic extent of WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR. 2017-07-08T07:52:43Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T07:52:58Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:54:34Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T07:56:23Z beach: But if you want something like (with-hash-table-iterator (name ht) (fun (lambda () name))) to work and the hash table to be locked as long as the closure is live, then it is going to be trickier. 2017-07-08T07:57:49Z beach: Maybe it is unrelated, and I just don't see it. 2017-07-08T07:59:53Z Bike: oh. i see the relation. but guaranteeing that seems like overkill. i mean, i'd have it so that not letting it escape will work, and letting it escape will allow the hash table to hit weird states that still don't break the image or anything 2017-07-08T08:03:57Z beach: That's what I meant by drmeister needing to specify what might happen. 2017-07-08T08:04:01Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:04:13Z Bike: oh. 2017-07-08T08:10:58Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T08:17:22Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:18:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:19:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:25:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:28:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:29:23Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:30:10Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:30:16Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:30:37Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:33:20Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:34:54Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:40:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:42:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:45:14Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T08:45:52Z ed41n quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:46:27Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T08:47:22Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:48:27Z ed41n joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:48:33Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:50:11Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T08:50:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T08:50:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:01:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:01:24Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:02:09Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:03:45Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-08T09:04:23Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:05:40Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T09:08:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:11:05Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:12:52Z andchat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:16:30Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:16:31Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-08T09:16:31Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:17:10Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:18:16Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T09:22:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:22:37Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:23:14Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:24:54Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:29:20Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:31:45Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:32:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:34:57Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-08T09:39:19Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:39:52Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:40:17Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:42:04Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:42:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:45:56Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:46:18Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:46:46Z slaejae quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-08T09:47:13Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:47:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:51:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:52:59Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T09:53:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T09:53:05Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-08T09:59:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T10:00:30Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:00:37Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:00:57Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:03:34Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:05:49Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:18:57Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:19:07Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:22:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T10:22:57Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T10:28:48Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T10:33:44Z cesdo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:38:02Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:38:14Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:45:53Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T10:46:53Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:47:23Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:52:51Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T10:56:37Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T11:06:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:08:38Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:09:16Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:10:08Z ed41n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:10:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T11:11:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:11:32Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:15:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:17:28Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:17:49Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:18:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:19:06Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:20:17Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:20:54Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:21:28Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-08T11:22:29Z ed41n joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:23:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:25:47Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:28:55Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:32:50Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:34:18Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-08T11:34:50Z ed41n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T11:36:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T11:41:35Z S1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:42:37Z S1 left #lisp 2017-07-08T11:43:22Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-08T11:43:30Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T11:43:51Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:52:06Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T11:52:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T11:55:18Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T12:02:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:07:29Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T12:12:51Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:13:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:14:09Z pjb quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T12:14:27Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:19:24Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T12:20:02Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:25:01Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T12:32:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T12:34:16Z Fonz joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:37:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:39:06Z pacon_ is now known as pacon 2017-07-08T12:40:14Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:41:59Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T12:43:19Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-08T12:47:05Z ksool_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T12:47:42Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T12:53:40Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-08T13:02:27Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T13:08:39Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T13:10:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T13:10:35Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T13:12:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T13:14:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T13:18:53Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T13:21:20Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-08T13:24:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T13:29:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T13:32:09Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-08T13:32:52Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T13:46:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-08T13:49:30Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T13:56:03Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T13:57:43Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:00:23Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:00:26Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T14:00:53Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:01:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:04:44Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:05:34Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:07:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T14:08:56Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-08T14:09:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:09:17Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:09:26Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:11:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T14:11:35Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:13:59Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T14:17:04Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:17:42Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T14:20:37Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:27:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T14:27:32Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:28:38Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T14:31:11Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T14:34:35Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T14:38:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:38:50Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:41:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:43:55Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:45:41Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T14:49:06Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T14:49:06Z adolf_stalin quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T14:58:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-08T15:04:00Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:08:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T15:09:02Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T15:09:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:10:25Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T15:12:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:15:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T15:17:26Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:23:24Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:28:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T15:35:20Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:47:15Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T15:48:44Z sucks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T15:51:46Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:57:14Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:57:24Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:58:24Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-08T15:59:43Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:06:12Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T16:06:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:07:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:07:38Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:07:44Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T16:08:31Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2017-07-08T16:09:30Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:09:39Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:13:49Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T16:14:49Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:27:18Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:32:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:35:52Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T16:40:38Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:46:55Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:51:33Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T16:52:01Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T16:55:22Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T17:07:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:07:34Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:13:03Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:18:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:21:02Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T17:22:13Z karswell joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:22:44Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:25:21Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T17:25:38Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:27:03Z strelox quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T17:27:13Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T17:28:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-08T17:29:38Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T17:32:23Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:33:54Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:34:07Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:35:53Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T17:36:12Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:38:59Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:41:29Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:48:13Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:49:24Z jmarciano left #lisp 2017-07-08T17:50:33Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-08T17:52:34Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T18:03:35Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T18:13:01Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T18:13:32Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:21:04Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:21:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:22:32Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T18:23:02Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:24:39Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:26:10Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T18:29:41Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T18:39:53Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:42:46Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T18:43:20Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:44:49Z TruePika quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T18:45:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T18:45:26Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:46:11Z TruePika joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:47:20Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:47:39Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T18:47:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T18:48:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-08T18:51:34Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T18:58:04Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:02:09Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:07:00Z ynj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:07:38Z zv quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-08T19:07:54Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:15:59Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:16:27Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:19:34Z maarhart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T19:19:34Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T19:19:48Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T19:19:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:20:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:23:19Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:23:31Z ynj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T19:23:53Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T19:24:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:27:24Z Murii quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T19:27:46Z fiveop quit 2017-07-08T19:31:43Z __paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:34:58Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:35:59Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:44:05Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:44:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:47:43Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T19:47:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T19:54:31Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-08T19:59:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:02:58Z gingerale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T20:03:24Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:03:45Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T20:06:06Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T20:06:19Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:07:38Z swflint joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:09:41Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:10:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:11:00Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:14:04Z PinealGlandOptic left #lisp 2017-07-08T20:14:34Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-08T20:20:06Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:20:12Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T20:21:11Z bigos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:22:03Z sellout-1 is now known as sellout 2017-07-08T20:23:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:23:22Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:24:38Z akkad joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:28:05Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:29:20Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:32:00Z S1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:32:31Z S1 left #lisp 2017-07-08T20:35:35Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:39:57Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-08T20:40:05Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:40:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:43:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T20:45:28Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:45:34Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:46:13Z ynjj joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:50:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:55:47Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:56:02Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-08T20:56:03Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-08T20:56:07Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:56:28Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-08T20:56:34Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:56:46Z Xach: so much excitement!! 2017-07-08T20:57:15Z 92AABENVU joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:57:17Z 92AABENVU is now known as specbot3 2017-07-08T20:57:18Z specbot3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T20:57:23Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-08T20:58:05Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-08T20:59:32Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-08T20:59:46Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:00:20Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:02:07Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:02:55Z andrzejku quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:05:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:09:03Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:10:24Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T21:17:44Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:21:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:29:35Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:33:23Z ynjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:34:45Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:35:41Z scottj left #lisp 2017-07-08T21:39:44Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:42:30Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:43:44Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T21:44:18Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:45:39Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:46:42Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:46:47Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T21:46:58Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T21:48:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:49:00Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:49:02Z deba5e12: hey, cffi question: something fishy is happening in one of the libraries i'm linking to with cffi, so i figured i'd put some printfs in there to see what's up. the output isn't appearing in the slime repl, or in the *inferior-lisp* buffer, or in a vanilla ccl repl, if i run the process there. the strangest part is that i don't even see it when running strace on the lisp process with -f. any thoughts on 2017-07-08T21:49:08Z deba5e12: what i might be overlooking? 2017-07-08T21:49:11Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:49:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:49:43Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:51:58Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:55:56Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T22:02:27Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-08T22:03:40Z minion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-08T22:03:40Z specbot quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-08T22:04:16Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-08T22:05:24Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:06:03Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:06:26Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:13:19Z minion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-08T22:13:21Z specbot quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-08T22:14:17Z varuaa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T22:14:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-08T22:15:07Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:15:46Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:20:00Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:23:14Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T22:24:09Z easye joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:27:10Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:30:11Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:32:27Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-08T22:34:00Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:36:57Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T22:40:20Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T22:41:56Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:41:56Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T22:44:37Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T22:45:24Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:47:27Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T22:49:09Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:50:59Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:51:23Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-08T22:54:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:03:35Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:05:26Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:07:37Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:07:56Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T23:09:56Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-08T23:13:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:16:45Z logicmoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T23:17:59Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:18:17Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:24:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:27:29Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:28:40Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:32:22Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:33:43Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:35:11Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:36:17Z Fonz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:38:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-08T23:39:28Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-08T23:40:07Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:40:59Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:42:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:42:23Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:43:06Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T23:43:32Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:43:52Z hexfive quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-08T23:44:59Z Fonz joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:45:12Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:46:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:48:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:48:43Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:51:35Z kajo2 joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:53:23Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-08T23:54:28Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T00:05:25Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T00:06:53Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T00:13:32Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T00:13:46Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T00:28:10Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-09T00:30:56Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T00:45:39Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-07-09T00:45:57Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-09T00:46:58Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T00:51:50Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T00:51:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T01:05:53Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T01:10:19Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-09T01:10:47Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T01:28:05Z Pollwa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T01:34:01Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-09T01:41:00Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-09T01:41:48Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T01:43:24Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T01:45:14Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-09T01:48:00Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-09T01:59:34Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:11:35Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T02:11:45Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T02:12:07Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:12:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:16:38Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:17:01Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T02:21:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:22:02Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:22:27Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T02:23:42Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T02:27:17Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T02:27:56Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:27:57Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-09T02:29:07Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:30:11Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:31:39Z smoon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T02:39:53Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T02:40:57Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:45:25Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T02:46:45Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-09T02:47:00Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T02:50:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-09T03:00:05Z cesdo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T03:00:40Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:04:16Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T03:04:44Z mrcom_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T03:05:02Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:11:31Z mrcom: minion: memo for deba5e12: 1) Doh! answer - the printfs aren't being called. 99.9% likelyhood :) 2) C library is defining its own version of printf, and defaults to no-op. 2017-07-09T03:11:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell deba5e12 when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-07-09T03:13:47Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:13:50Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T03:16:57Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:17:46Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:18:35Z vtomole: PuercoPop: Are you here? 2017-07-09T03:18:51Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T03:20:08Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-09T03:23:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:32:43Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:34:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T03:37:04Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:43:46Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T03:44:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:48:17Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T03:49:16Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T03:51:05Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:54:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:57:27Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T03:57:28Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:57:54Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T03:59:03Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-09T04:04:16Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T04:11:16Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-09T04:16:00Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T04:28:56Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T04:35:49Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T04:36:52Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T04:37:48Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T04:40:34Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-09T04:46:47Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T04:55:46Z shrdlu68: clear 2017-07-09T04:58:34Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T05:00:03Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-09T05:00:49Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T05:01:26Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T05:02:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:04:59Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:06:16Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:07:13Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T05:12:30Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:16:24Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T05:17:41Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:25:16Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T05:32:12Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T05:33:22Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:34:34Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T05:35:02Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:37:30Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T05:39:32Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-09T05:42:41Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T05:44:29Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I'm implementing jupyter widgets for Common Lisp. 2017-07-09T05:44:34Z drmeister: I've got a bit of a puzzle. 2017-07-09T05:44:54Z drmeister: I have messages that come in from the browser to Common Lisp that update slots of widgets. 2017-07-09T05:46:10Z drmeister: When a message comes in from the browser that a widget in the browser changed (via the jupyter widgets machinery) I use (setf (slot-value widget slot-name) value) to set the value of a slot 2017-07-09T05:46:43Z drmeister: I also need to be able to set slots of widgets from within Common Lisp and have that lead to a message being sent to the browser. 2017-07-09T05:47:14Z drmeister: I can write an :around method for (setf slotxxx) but I think that will lead to cascades of messages where: 2017-07-09T05:47:29Z drmeister: message from browser -> setf slot-value -> message to browser. 2017-07-09T05:47:38Z drmeister: How would I avoid this? 2017-07-09T05:49:19Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T05:58:57Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:02:34Z blt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:05:41Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:08:30Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:09:52Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:14:25Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:14:40Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:15:04Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T06:15:33Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:15:36Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-09T06:18:31Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:21:44Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:21:57Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:28:31Z specbot quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:28:34Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:32:05Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:32:06Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:32:21Z beach: minion: Welcome back! 2017-07-09T06:32:21Z minion: thanks! 2017-07-09T06:32:46Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:32:50Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-09T06:35:03Z drmeister: This is probably a terrible idea - but what if I set a dynamic variable and had the (setf slot-value-using-class) method check that variable to determine what the source of the setf call is. 2017-07-09T06:36:39Z drmeister: I'm about to lose power on my laptop - in case anyone has strong feelings about my suggestion above - I'll check back in a bit when I get power again. 2017-07-09T06:36:59Z White_Flame: Your update messages should have a "message source" field 2017-07-09T06:37:20Z White_Flame: if it matches the current recipient, don't propagate it. 2017-07-09T06:37:21Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:37:39Z White_Flame: or, if it matches the recipient you're about to send to, don't send it 2017-07-09T06:41:24Z White_Flame: "originator" is probably the best name for such a field 2017-07-09T06:48:11Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:48:21Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T06:49:41Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-09T06:52:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:56:29Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:02:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: drmeister: have you seen this new Jupyter-like notebook written in CL? https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter 2017-07-09T07:03:36Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:04:46Z vtomole: fiddlerwoaroof: Hey! Nice! 2017-07-09T07:04:50Z drmeister: No - what is it? 2017-07-09T07:04:59Z vtomole: looks like an ide 2017-07-09T07:05:04Z vtomole: on web browser 2017-07-09T07:05:13Z vtomole: For Common Lisp 2017-07-09T07:05:21Z drmeister: Is it using jupyter notebooks? 2017-07-09T07:05:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's sort of like Jupyter, except entirely written in CL. I just saw it on Hacker News earlier today 2017-07-09T07:05:36Z drmeister: I'm on my phone - things aren't too clear 2017-07-09T07:06:38Z vtomole: fiddlerwoaroof: I like emacs+slime a little tooo much to move to this though haha 2017-07-09T07:07:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: vtomole: yeah, I wouldn't actually switch, I just thought it would be a great way to introduce other people to CL without teaching them emacs 2017-07-09T07:08:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: It uses the ace editor component (I believe this is what Atom is based on) so it's probably fairly easy to add something like parinfer or paredit to it. 2017-07-09T07:09:06Z vtomole: For sure. Emacs was a huge hurdle when i wanted to start hacking CL last year. 2017-07-09T07:09:17Z vtomole: And some people just hate emacs from the outset 2017-07-09T07:09:28Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T07:09:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I used vim for quite a while until I discovered how easy it would be to port my vim configuration to evil-mode 2017-07-09T07:10:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: As I like to say, evil-mode is the best vi-clone 2017-07-09T07:10:24Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:10:54Z vtomole: That is what i'll point the cl noobs to. 2017-07-09T07:11:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I discovered today that Atom + atom-slime + paredit works pretty well 2017-07-09T07:11:53Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:12:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm half-considering Making a Mac App that bundles atom, a couple plugins, quicklisp and sbcl 2017-07-09T07:12:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really feel like taking the effort on something I wouldn't use myself, though 2017-07-09T07:13:35Z vtomole: If it could potentially increase CL adoption.. 2017-07-09T07:18:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T07:24:17Z ryanbw quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T07:25:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T07:32:31Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:32:37Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-09T07:35:09Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:35:17Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-09T07:37:02Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:43:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:43:27Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T07:45:16Z shiranuidong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T07:45:36Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:45:55Z PuercoPop: vtomole: here now (one can always use minion for async communication) 2017-07-09T07:47:13Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T07:47:41Z vtomole: PuercoPop: Not very urgent, but I had some problems with formlets earlier:https://github.com/inaimathi/formlets/issues/18 2017-07-09T07:48:03Z vtomole: I saw that you contributed a bit to the project so i figured you knew something about it. 2017-07-09T07:52:27Z drmeister: fiddlerwoaroof: When you use evil-mode in emacs - how do you deal with mental context switching when you switch from an editor buffer (evil mode) to a terminal buffer or calc buffer (not in evil mode). 2017-07-09T07:52:56Z drmeister: I'd like to use evil-mode in emacs - but mentally switching in and out of evil-mode drove me nuts. 2017-07-09T07:55:04Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T08:00:28Z PuercoPop: vtomole: Yeah, I think some of Leo's projects have a lot of potential, especially house. But as was the case with https://github.com/mmontone/cl-forms I didn't liked how it was implemented. In the case of formlets in particular how the rendering wasn't stream based. I wrote by own library based on formlets but with a simpler implementation and more extensible. It is good enough for what I wanted ATM (just a login fo 2017-07-09T08:00:28Z PuercoPop: rm) but I haven't tackled multiple choice fields or thought about how to best handle server specific interactions (or if that should be in scope) and the only documentation is a meager 'test' file. https://github.com/PuercoPop/html-forms 2017-07-09T08:00:47Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:01:24Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:01:38Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T08:02:17Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T08:02:29Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:02:47Z vtomole: PuercoPop: Ok i will look into it. thanks. 2017-07-09T08:02:56Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:02:58Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-09T08:04:03Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T08:04:16Z PuercoPop: Btw anyone has any pointers on any pattern based ways to desugar sexps? I've only found http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=755247 (which uses something similar to prolog unification) and https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1990/CSD-90-608.pdf 2017-07-09T08:04:32Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:08:06Z PuercoPop: vtomole: Let me know if you need any help or have some feedback with html-forms, in my mind it is easy to understand and clear how to extend (it is a really small library < 500 LoC) but ymmv. Also if you have any ideas as to how improve 'data-binding' part of the API (extracting the valid values) or if you need integration with an ORM like CLSQL, which it is something I want to add in the future 2017-07-09T08:11:10Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:14:16Z pyx joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:15:52Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T08:16:28Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:20:20Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:28:56Z blt joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:37:11Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:39:48Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:43:41Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T08:44:08Z S1 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:45:20Z S1 left #lisp 2017-07-09T08:51:59Z kokonaisluku joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:56:41Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T08:58:00Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T08:59:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T09:00:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T09:02:04Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T09:09:16Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T09:13:11Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T09:14:30Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T09:15:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T09:16:52Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-09T09:19:25Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T09:20:29Z kokonaisluku quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 52.2.0/20170614174941]) 2017-07-09T09:38:56Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T09:39:35Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T09:53:36Z minion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-09T09:53:36Z specbot quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-09T09:53:38Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-09T09:54:49Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-09T09:55:27Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:01:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:03:38Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:05:43Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:07:05Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:17:32Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:19:42Z kajo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-09T10:24:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:24:54Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:27:10Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:31:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:32:19Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:32:33Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:34:53Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:36:13Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:46:52Z Pollwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T10:47:09Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:51:31Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:53:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-09T10:56:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T11:01:06Z Legenda joined #lisp 2017-07-09T11:01:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T11:04:47Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T11:12:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T11:13:45Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-07-09T11:14:34Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-09T11:22:23Z Legenda quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-09T11:27:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T11:30:20Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-09T11:32:57Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-07-09T11:36:28Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-09T11:42:15Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-09T11:50:41Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T11:56:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T11:57:23Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:04:42Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-09T12:04:56Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:07:04Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:07:11Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:09:01Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:10:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:11:12Z minion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T12:11:12Z specbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T12:12:19Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:12:57Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:14:11Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:14:46Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:15:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:18:54Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:20:22Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:21:53Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:22:29Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:25:53Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:28:51Z Klambda joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:29:00Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:32:06Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:42:37Z Klambda quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-09T12:43:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:51:05Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:51:52Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:54:35Z mfiano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T12:54:59Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-09T12:55:07Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-09T13:03:46Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T13:04:19Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T13:11:07Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-09T13:15:30Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T13:23:40Z sbodin joined #lisp 2017-07-09T13:24:10Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-09T13:26:05Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T13:27:34Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T13:29:28Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-07-09T13:32:15Z lanu quit (Quit: reboot) 2017-07-09T13:32:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T13:35:48Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-09T13:40:06Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-09T13:46:50Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T13:49:10Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:08:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T14:09:37Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:11:23Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:17:55Z sbodin quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-09T14:18:23Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T14:23:01Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:23:34Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:24:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:25:09Z kajo quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T14:25:32Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:25:34Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:36:53Z ynj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:42:17Z ynj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T14:42:56Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T14:44:04Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:46:42Z zm joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:48:20Z zm: How do I test the efficiency of a function? I'm mainly interested in how many cons cells are used/created during the computation. 2017-07-09T14:48:59Z Bike: try wrapping calls in TIME, it might track allocation 2017-07-09T14:49:02Z ynj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:49:17Z Bike: failing that, your implementation likely has a profiler, or you could quickload the METERING system 2017-07-09T14:49:24Z zm: I did do that but it didn't return the number of cons cells. 2017-07-09T14:49:37Z beach: zm: What implementation? 2017-07-09T14:49:40Z zm: SBCL. 2017-07-09T14:50:03Z beach: Hmm. As I recall, that information is given. 2017-07-09T14:50:09Z zm: Unless ‘135,872 processor cycles’ are the cons? 2017-07-09T14:50:15Z beach: No. 2017-07-09T14:50:17Z Bike: no, it's the "whatever KB allocated" 2017-07-09T14:50:25Z Bike: it doesn't go as fine grained as how many cons cells, i don't think 2017-07-09T14:50:37Z zm: No such information returned. 2017-07-09T14:51:00Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T14:51:06Z beach: 160,006,144 bytes consed here. 2017-07-09T14:51:14Z beach: when I say (time (make-list 10000000)) 2017-07-09T14:51:17Z Bike: oh, consed, not allocated 2017-07-09T14:51:58Z beach: zm: What did you type then? 2017-07-09T14:51:59Z zm: This is the information returned from wrapping a form with TIME: https://0x0.st/GPE.txt 2017-07-09T14:52:06Z zm: (time ...) 2017-07-09T14:52:13Z Bike: 0 bytes consed, then 2017-07-09T14:52:20Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T14:52:26Z Bike: however, that's an extremely short function you're timing, it looks like 2017-07-09T14:52:28Z zm: That doesn't make sense though. 2017-07-09T14:52:43Z Bike: try doing (time (loop repeat 100000 do whatever)) 2017-07-09T14:53:04Z Bike: in SBCL i think allocations of less than 4 KB won't show up 2017-07-09T14:53:05Z beach: zm: Can you show us the function, and how you called it inside TIME? 2017-07-09T14:53:20Z zm: Yes, there's a bit of context to the function: https://0x0.st/GPI.txt 2017-07-09T14:53:53Z Bike: and you're timing SIBLINGS? 2017-07-09T14:54:01Z zm: Indeed. 2017-07-09T14:54:18Z Bike: yeah that's way too small for sbcl's time granularity 2017-07-09T14:54:56Z zm: Alright, thanks Bike, beach. 2017-07-09T14:55:02Z beach: Anytime. 2017-07-09T14:55:49Z zm: I suppose I just have to watch out for list manipulation functions that create lists. 2017-07-09T14:55:50Z Bike: if you want to reduce consing you might try passing remove-if-not :key #'car, instead of using the mapcar. i don't think sbcl is smat enough to remove the interior allocation for you 2017-07-09T14:57:10Z zm: Using the first remove-if-not or passing another to the first? 2017-07-09T14:57:29Z ynj left #lisp 2017-07-09T14:58:06Z Bike: (remove-if-not (lambda (x) ...) family :key #'car) 2017-07-09T14:58:37Z hydan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:59:08Z zm: Hm, perhaps but I get a list inside a list, haha. 2017-07-09T14:59:38Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-09T14:59:40Z Bike: oh, wait, yeh, you won't get the cars out of it 2017-07-09T15:00:11Z Bike: i guess to avoid the intermediate allocation it would be easier with a loop then 2017-07-09T15:00:26Z zm: A bit advanced for me. 2017-07-09T15:00:44Z beach: zm: Checking amount allocated is VERY advanced. 2017-07-09T15:00:55Z zm: Oh. 2017-07-09T15:01:01Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T15:01:01Z beach: zm: Why are you so interested in that? 2017-07-09T15:01:20Z zm: I was comparing two versions of siblings and didn't know which was better. 2017-07-09T15:01:57Z beach: I think you can forget about consing until you improve on your data structure for other reasons. 2017-07-09T15:02:25Z zm: Alright. 2017-07-09T15:03:00Z beach: I would use hash tables for father, mother, parents. 2017-07-09T15:03:14Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:03:31Z beach: ... provided the family is kind of static and the number of queries might be significant. 2017-07-09T15:04:58Z beach: In fact, the function siblings could be a simple hash-table query as well if you preprocess the family into a bunch of hash tables. 2017-07-09T15:05:25Z beach: Then the consing would drop to zero, no matter how many queries you make. 2017-07-09T15:05:26Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:06:30Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:06:31Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T15:08:23Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:09:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:10:55Z zm: That's interesting, I'll implement that some time. 2017-07-09T15:11:31Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T15:14:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T15:15:01Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T15:15:40Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:15:42Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:18:07Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T15:19:17Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:20:08Z deba5e12: hey, mrcom, thanks for answering my question, re: printf in cffi-wrapped C functions 2017-07-09T15:20:19Z deba5e12: i just found the answer in the logs. 2017-07-09T15:20:38Z deba5e12: is this something cffi does -- mask printf (& presumably other io funcs)? 2017-07-09T15:21:48Z zm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T15:22:44Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T15:25:49Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T15:26:19Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:43:14Z semz joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:48:59Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T15:53:16Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-09T15:56:04Z maarhart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T16:03:55Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:05:49Z specbot quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-09T16:05:50Z minion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T16:07:20Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:07:59Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:17:56Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:19:47Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:21:02Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:21:53Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:21:58Z axion: Is it possible to specify more than one type in a TYPECASE clause like I can with CASE? 2017-07-09T16:22:14Z _death: (or ...) 2017-07-09T16:22:30Z axion: Ah, that works, albeit a bit different 2017-07-09T16:23:29Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T16:25:33Z axion: Is there a way to match an explicit T/NIL. I mapped a few types to OpenGL types, but I need to match boolean too. 2017-07-09T16:25:46Z _death: (eql ) 2017-07-09T16:26:09Z drmeister: We are implementing jupyter widgets for Common Lisp. 2017-07-09T16:26:28Z axion: Thank you 2017-07-09T16:26:37Z _death: or (member t nil) 2017-07-09T16:27:13Z drmeister: Jupyter widgets have a mechanism to update slots in the python backend/kernel when the user manipulates widgets in the browser. 2017-07-09T16:27:28Z puchacz joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:27:42Z drmeister: It also has a mechanism to send update messages to the browser to update widgets when the programmer changes slot values of widgets in the backend/kernel. 2017-07-09T16:27:49Z drmeister: I'm trying to replicate this machinery. 2017-07-09T16:28:24Z drmeister: One thing I need to do is NOT send messages to the browser when widget slots in the Common Lisp backend/kernel are first initialized by CLOS. 2017-07-09T16:29:25Z axion: Is this the same question as yesterday? 2017-07-09T16:29:47Z drmeister: I figure I can do this in (setf clos:slot-value-using-class) by not sending messages to the browser when the slot value changes from being unbound to being set by a value. 2017-07-09T16:29:55Z drmeister: axion: Are you asking me? 2017-07-09T16:29:57Z axion: Yes 2017-07-09T16:30:30Z drmeister: Yes, related to the question from yesterday but I understand the problem a bit better and I'm providing more info. 2017-07-09T16:30:40Z axion: Ah, you got a few replies after your battery died. 2017-07-09T16:30:50Z _death: drmeister: what about slot-makunbound 2017-07-09T16:31:07Z drmeister: _death: Good point 2017-07-09T16:31:23Z drmeister: Checking back for responses from last night... 2017-07-09T16:31:42Z axion: drmeister: This project was also referenced if you haven't seen it: https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter 2017-07-09T16:32:01Z Bike: i think what i'd do is forget what python does, and skip fancy methods on s-v-u-c like that, and just have a "synchronize" function to call manually to send over the state 2017-07-09T16:33:14Z drmeister: I'd read them - what White_Flame suggested is sort of like what jupyter widgets uses to suppress messages to the browser that come from slot changes due to messages from the browser. 2017-07-09T16:33:21Z puchacz: hi - have we got a logging library with log files roll and maybe compression of old ones? 2017-07-09T16:33:52Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T16:34:31Z axion: puchacz: log4cl has most of that 2017-07-09T16:34:34Z drmeister: What jupyter widgets actually does is when messages come from the browser it temporarily locks the slots (it keeps a list of slots that are locked) that are being changed due to the incoming message so that when they are changed no messages go out. 2017-07-09T16:34:57Z drmeister: I was going to implement the same thing. 2017-07-09T16:34:59Z axion: I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to patch for compression with salza2 or the like 2017-07-09T16:35:51Z Bike: oh, is that what it was? nothing to do with parallelism at all, huh. 2017-07-09T16:36:07Z drmeister: I was trying to figure out how to suppress messages when the widget is originally set up - that's why I suggested checking the bound/unbound state of the slot to figure out if it was being set for the first time. 2017-07-09T16:36:28Z puchacz: axion: thanks 2017-07-09T16:36:41Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:36:53Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:37:05Z drmeister: Bike: That's what it looks like after reading the code several times. 2017-07-09T16:37:27Z drmeister: But making it thread safe is a good thing. 2017-07-09T16:37:29Z Bike: drmeister: dumb solution: around method on initialize instance 2017-07-09T16:37:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:37:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-09T16:37:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:38:04Z Bike: like (let ((*send-updates* nil)) (call-next-method)) and then have (defmethod slot-value-using-class :after ... (when *send-updates* (update))) 2017-07-09T16:38:19Z drmeister: Bike: That actually sounds like a good solution. 2017-07-09T16:38:42Z semz: not sure if this belongs to #sbcl rather than #lisp, but do there exist musl binaries for SBCL? 2017-07-09T16:38:49Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T16:41:10Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-09T16:48:14Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T16:50:39Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:50:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T16:51:16Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T16:52:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: drmeister: as far as your question about context-switching in evil-mode goes, I don't actually use many features of emacs that don't use evil-mode bindings, aside from customize. However, my attitude is that evil-mode has a mode vi doesn't have: "emacs mode", which is indicated in the modeline by 2017-07-09T16:52:37Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:53:14Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:55:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-09T16:57:23Z drmeister: Ah 2017-07-09T16:57:31Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T16:57:58Z drmeister: So you look for the and then you have the emacs bindings. 2017-07-09T16:58:21Z PuercoPop: drmeister: Are you trying to implement a CL backend for jupyter notebooks? 2017-07-09T16:58:59Z drmeister: PuercoPop: There is already a cl backend called: cl-jupyter. We are extending it to support jupyter widgets. 2017-07-09T16:59:29Z drmeister: fiddlerwoaroof: Thank you. 2017-07-09T16:59:30Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:01:20Z pjb: axion: the type boolean is defined as (member t nil). 2017-07-09T17:01:21Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T17:01:22Z drmeister: Bike: It looks like the _property_lock is a dictionary that you load up with slot-name/value pairs and that suppresses messages to the browser for any slot/value changes that are in the dictionary. 2017-07-09T17:02:49Z PuercoPop: drmeister: yes, I was going to refer to it in case you weren't aware. I didn't know jupyter now supports interactive widgets, nice. 2017-07-09T17:02:53Z Bike: i see... 2017-07-09T17:04:18Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:04:29Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:05:12Z axion: pjb: Thanks, I got that. 2017-07-09T17:05:17Z drmeister: PuercoPop: Yes - jupyter widgets are the bees knees. 2017-07-09T17:05:34Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T17:05:37Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T17:06:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:08:07Z pjb: axion: just be sure to put the BOOLEAN clause _before_ the other types that may contain NIL or T, such as SYMBOL. 2017-07-09T17:09:10Z Bike: oh, i've messed that up a lot :( 2017-07-09T17:10:41Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-09T17:11:17Z axion: pjb: Right, though there will not be any. This is an etypecase for GPU data types, so numbers and arrays of them. 2017-07-09T17:11:32Z drmeister: Bike: messed up what? 2017-07-09T17:12:29Z Bike: the nil/symbol thing pjb mentioned 2017-07-09T17:12:54Z Bike: (typecase x (symbol ...) (null ...) ...) "why isn't this working" 2017-07-09T17:12:55Z drmeister: Oh - ok - no problem then. I was worried it was something to do with _property_lock 2017-07-09T17:13:03Z Bike: nah 2017-07-09T17:14:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:15:08Z drmeister: Hey - I was thinking about TYPEQ. It's really just about exposing all of the IsA relationship machinery that looks up the stamp and compares it to integer ranges. 2017-07-09T17:15:09Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!) 2017-07-09T17:15:31Z drmeister: Oh - back to #clasp 2017-07-09T17:20:07Z ynj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:22:31Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-09T17:22:55Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:26:23Z Pollwa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T17:26:39Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:26:52Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T17:28:20Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:34:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-09T17:38:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T17:44:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T17:44:41Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:45:23Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-09T17:46:18Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T17:47:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:50:22Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:51:36Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T17:52:49Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:52:52Z andrzejku quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T17:55:22Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:57:58Z handlex quit (Quit: handlex) 2017-07-09T17:58:27Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-09T17:59:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:02:58Z omilu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:03:22Z ryanbw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T18:05:02Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:10:03Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:12:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:14:13Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:15:10Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T18:15:50Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:16:16Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:17:31Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:19:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:20:57Z ynj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T18:22:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:23:40Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:27:26Z florentine joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:31:41Z oystewh joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:36:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:39:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:41:44Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:43:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:45:49Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:47:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:49:08Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:50:29Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T18:51:05Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T18:55:29Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T18:56:53Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T18:57:57Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T19:07:45Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T19:07:52Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-09T19:09:25Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:10:18Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:10:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T19:16:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:16:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-09T19:16:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:18:13Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T19:22:47Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:23:38Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:25:41Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:25:55Z jack_rabbit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T19:26:30Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:28:27Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T19:32:20Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-09T19:38:30Z Xach: ok 2017-07-09T19:45:44Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:46:40Z josemanuel quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T19:46:58Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:47:29Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:47:49Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:48:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-09T19:52:35Z specbot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T19:53:08Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:53:18Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T19:55:16Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T19:55:52Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T19:56:04Z stapler: hello all, what are the essential tools in the CL ecosystem? e.g. quicklisp, asdf, etc. 2017-07-09T19:56:23Z Cthulhux: emacs+slime 2017-07-09T19:58:00Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:58:39Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-09T19:58:47Z Lowl3v3l: stapler: and a lisp implementation of your choice ;) 2017-07-09T20:00:34Z stapler: I think I understand the basics of lisp, but it'd be nice to actually, y'know, write something with it 2017-07-09T20:01:03Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-09T20:02:31Z Lowl3v3l: stapler: then get a lisp implementation , set up emacs and slime ( or some other editor) and then go on :) 2017-07-09T20:06:19Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:07:24Z |3b| would include something like paredit for maintaining paren balance as well 2017-07-09T20:08:05Z |3b|: also adds some convenient functions for rearranging lisp code 2017-07-09T20:11:10Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T20:12:16Z attila_lendvai: ...and two weeks later, you can get to try evaluating your first lisp expression... :) (read: just hack away, and note the above recommendations for feeding further curiosity) 2017-07-09T20:12:47Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T20:13:38Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-09T20:15:53Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye) 2017-07-09T20:19:39Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:21:06Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T20:21:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:22:40Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T20:25:45Z sveit joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:27:46Z puchacz: stapler: lisp of choice on linux seems to be sbcl these days 2017-07-09T20:27:52Z puchacz: (for the last 10 years) 2017-07-09T20:28:31Z bradw joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:28:55Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-09T20:29:43Z bradw is now known as warweasle 2017-07-09T20:30:42Z nugnuts joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:32:01Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T20:32:12Z nugnuts_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:34:03Z nugnuts quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T20:34:30Z stapler: and on windows? :-) 2017-07-09T20:34:52Z Baggers: stapler: sbcl works great there too 2017-07-09T20:35:31Z nugnuts_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-09T20:37:21Z nugnuts joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:39:57Z shka: i think that CCL is more suitable for novice, though 2017-07-09T20:40:48Z gypsydave5 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:42:02Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:45:01Z Xach: shka: what makes it so? 2017-07-09T20:45:25Z shka: errors are easier to understand 2017-07-09T20:45:43Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:46:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T20:46:14Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-09T20:47:18Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:47:18Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-09T20:47:18Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:48:47Z Baggers: shka: SBCL was the lisp I learned with, I dont recall errors being a problem, though I was occasionally amazed at what it had worked out was an issue. No proof of anything of course but my experience 2017-07-09T20:49:10Z shka: well, same here 2017-07-09T20:49:14Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T20:49:31Z shka: but in retrospect, i wish i was using ccl more 2017-07-09T20:49:53Z Baggers: stapler: https://youtu.be/VnWVu8VVDbI?list=PL2VAYZE_4wRIoHsU5cEBIxCYcbHzy4Ypj this might help with getting set up on windows 2017-07-09T20:50:08Z stapler: thanks! 2017-07-09T20:50:16Z stapler: for sharing, and making the videos (I assume that's your channel) 2017-07-09T20:51:08Z Baggers: yup. thanks, hope it's useful 2017-07-09T20:51:20Z shka: moment 2017-07-09T20:51:36Z shka: Baggers: you are that 3D opengl stuff Baggers, aren't you? 2017-07-09T20:51:43Z Baggers: shka: yup 2017-07-09T20:51:49Z shka: i like your stuff 2017-07-09T20:51:53Z Baggers: thanks! 2017-07-09T20:52:51Z shka: since you are here 2017-07-09T20:53:10Z shka: what are your thoughts on vulkan api? 2017-07-09T20:53:13Z varjag: ccl shows me the source of a backtrace frame down to a sexpr, while sbcl highlights the whole function 2017-07-09T20:53:24Z varjag: but maybe that's my slime setup issue 2017-07-09T20:57:25Z Baggers: shka: vulkan is great if you know the architecture of your project well have squeezed all you can from GL. There are still ugly parts of the API but they are well know issues at least. I'm glad that they have both though, I won't be switching for a long time yet. DirectX12 and Metal have to be all things to all people which (I think) will make it a bit harder to giet into, however it seems DX has been slightly bette 2017-07-09T20:57:25Z Baggers: r at api in general, I've no real DX experience though so I may be talking out my arse. The prospect of SPIRV is also ace but I'm nowhere near the kind of skill level to use it well (so much more you need to take into account) 2017-07-09T20:57:59Z Baggers: varjag: that is pretty cool, I didnt realize that. 2017-07-09T21:02:11Z gypsydave5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T21:02:23Z shka: Baggers: thanks for answer 2017-07-09T21:02:27Z shka: have a good night 2017-07-09T21:02:41Z Baggers: goodnight 2017-07-09T21:08:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-09T21:14:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:14:36Z nugnuts quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T21:18:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T21:18:46Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:21:58Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:22:36Z p_l: Baggers: from what i heard, at least spirv will be common for both vulkan and opengl which is nice... 2017-07-09T21:23:28Z Baggers: p_l: yeah, they say they are just going to compiler glsl to spirv, which makes perfect sense 2017-07-09T21:24:32Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T21:25:14Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:27:21Z p_l: also some GL/CL/Vulkan interop... 2017-07-09T21:30:29Z Baggers: super cool 2017-07-09T21:33:43Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-09T21:38:01Z |3b|: there is already an extension to use spirv with GL, though looks like only available on recent nv/amd drivers so far 2017-07-09T21:38:54Z |3b|: also works with OpenCL, though lots of differences in what i supported between opencl and gl/vulkan 2017-07-09T21:40:42Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T21:42:40Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T21:43:51Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:45:09Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:45:28Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:48:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:53:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T21:56:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T21:57:35Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:00:07Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:04:23Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T22:08:51Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:09:33Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:09:40Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:11:20Z sucks_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:11:20Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-09T22:11:22Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T22:12:13Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:12:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:12:38Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:13:26Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:14:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:14:53Z p_l: https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter/blob/master/README.markdown 2017-07-09T22:15:15Z p_l: nice gateway drug to lisp? ;-) 2017-07-09T22:15:24Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:17:34Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:18:07Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:19:02Z semz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T22:22:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:22:34Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:22:43Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T22:28:14Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T22:28:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:29:08Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-09T22:29:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: stapler: you might try this https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ 2017-07-09T22:30:35Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:31:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera's stuff, in my experience, has always been very high-quality and well-documented. So, I suspect that this might be a good way to get started on Windows, if you want to get going quickly 2017-07-09T22:32:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I played around with Atom's atom-slime plugin the other day: it seems to work pretty well, even if it doesn't expose all the goodies available in Emacs: I could see Atom+sbcl+a paredit-like plugin for atom being a nice environment for beginners. 2017-07-09T22:32:31Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:32:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then, once you're comfortable with lisp, you could then focus on learning emacs ;) 2017-07-09T22:33:34Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:33:49Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:34:18Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:35:38Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:37:05Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:37:57Z Baggers left #lisp 2017-07-09T22:41:08Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:41:10Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:41:19Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-09T22:44:18Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:51:35Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:53:24Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:54:44Z handlex quit (Quit: handlex) 2017-07-09T22:55:02Z stapler: fiddlerwoaroof, ah, thanks 2017-07-09T22:55:17Z stapler: the whole environment & ecosystem is more confusing to me than the language itself 2017-07-09T22:55:23Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-09T22:55:32Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T22:59:13Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T22:59:29Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:06:01Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:08:35Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:08:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:10:27Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:12:58Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:13:49Z Ellenor quit (Quit: ... Sometimes, you just don't know if life is even a thing.) 2017-07-09T23:13:55Z sellout-1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T23:14:07Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:14:09Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:15:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:17:55Z Ellenor joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:18:13Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-07-09T23:19:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:21:33Z blt` joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:21:43Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-09T23:24:05Z blt` is now known as swedishfish 2017-07-09T23:25:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:28:01Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:28:03Z swedishfish quit (Changing host) 2017-07-09T23:28:03Z swedishfish joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:28:08Z swedishfish is now known as bt` 2017-07-09T23:28:11Z bt` is now known as blt 2017-07-09T23:31:05Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:34:20Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T23:35:55Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:38:05Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:38:58Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-09T23:39:06Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:45:37Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:46:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:47:58Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T23:48:41Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:49:52Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:49:55Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T23:56:02Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-09T23:57:18Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:58:31Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-09T23:59:00Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T00:04:20Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:08:57Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:10:09Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T00:25:22Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T00:25:44Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:25:59Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:27:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T00:28:47Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:35:05Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T00:35:25Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:37:55Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:38:29Z stee_3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:40:10Z stee_3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T00:42:23Z florentine quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-10T00:42:31Z sellout-1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T00:43:54Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:44:27Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:44:28Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T00:46:31Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T00:46:37Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T00:47:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: stapler: yeah, the learning curve is fairly steep, but I find the language itself quite nice 2017-07-10T00:47:57Z stapler: is the "ql:" in "ql:quickload" just by convention? 2017-07-10T00:48:07Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T00:48:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's a package name 2017-07-10T00:48:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: packages have one primary name and then zero or more nicknames 2017-07-10T00:48:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: so, quicklisp is also called ql 2017-07-10T00:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can use the function PACKAGE-NICKNAMES to see a package's nicknames 2017-07-10T00:51:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g.: (package-nicknames :quicklisp) #| => ("QL" "QUICKLISP") |# 2017-07-10T00:51:22Z stapler: right, and if you're in package foo, you can call (bar:baz) to access the baz function in package bar, yes? 2017-07-10T00:51:23Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:51:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah 2017-07-10T00:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: as long as baz is an exported function 2017-07-10T00:51:40Z stapler: right 2017-07-10T00:51:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: you can use :: to access non-exported functions/variables, but this shouldn't be done in real code 2017-07-10T00:56:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T00:56:39Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T00:57:13Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:58:17Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T00:59:27Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T00:59:42Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-10T01:01:52Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:05:23Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T01:05:54Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:07:52Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:17:19Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:20:26Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T01:22:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:24:29Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:28:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T01:28:08Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:31:45Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T01:34:48Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T01:38:08Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:40:44Z blt quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-10T01:42:57Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T01:44:41Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:45:49Z blt joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:46:52Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:46:56Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T01:51:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T02:03:53Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T02:06:58Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:08:37Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T02:18:32Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:27:04Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:30:30Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T02:33:34Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:35:53Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T02:37:59Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:40:53Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T02:43:41Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:45:20Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:45:28Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T02:46:52Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T02:48:48Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:51:04Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T02:57:29Z bradw joined #lisp 2017-07-10T02:57:31Z bradw is now known as warweasle 2017-07-10T03:02:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:02:31Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:04:12Z SpikeMaster left #lisp 2017-07-10T03:08:22Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T03:08:33Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-10T03:10:28Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:12:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T03:13:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:19:16Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T03:20:09Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:23:46Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T03:24:49Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T03:25:39Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:26:03Z hydan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:26:37Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:37:43Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T03:38:51Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:39:07Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T03:40:36Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-10T03:40:44Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-10T03:47:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Morning beach 2017-07-10T03:49:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Has anyone else run across a "class_addIvar failed" error when using CCL's objective-c bridge? 2017-07-10T03:50:52Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T03:58:57Z procl0 quit (Quit: zZZzzZz) 2017-07-10T04:00:52Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:04:05Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T04:06:54Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:08:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:14:40Z drmeister: Hi beach 2017-07-10T04:15:32Z Fonz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T04:15:37Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:17:00Z hydan quit 2017-07-10T04:20:04Z smoon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T04:20:20Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:22:58Z mrcom_ left #lisp 2017-07-10T04:23:26Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:23:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:30:32Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:33:02Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T04:34:38Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:39:28Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T04:41:17Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:42:35Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T04:43:44Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-10T04:53:02Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-10T04:56:08Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T04:56:59Z Merv__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T05:02:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:05:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:05:11Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:07:37Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:09:30Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:11:21Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:12:39Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-10T05:13:04Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:13:53Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:15:33Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:22:19Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T05:22:37Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:23:07Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:23:27Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:25:25Z arescorpio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T05:34:53Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:35:25Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:36:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:43:23Z nydel: good mornings to all 2017-07-10T05:44:17Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:47:27Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:47:56Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:48:52Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:49:17Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-10T05:50:19Z beach: Hello nydel. 2017-07-10T05:50:25Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:53:44Z broccoli_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:53:50Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-10T05:53:55Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T05:56:05Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T06:05:10Z poorbean quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T06:06:32Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T06:06:38Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:10:10Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T06:11:38Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T06:14:06Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:15:11Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:15:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T06:19:22Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T06:20:58Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:22:27Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T06:24:21Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:24:23Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-10T06:25:43Z Suzuran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T06:26:02Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:26:03Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-10T06:26:33Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:28:05Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:31:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:33:07Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T06:33:53Z broccoli_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T06:34:44Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T06:35:13Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T06:39:34Z drmeister: Jupyter widgets - in Common Lisp: http://i.imgur.com/N9l8ANw.png 2017-07-10T06:46:54Z Suzuran joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:49:28Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:50:54Z jdz: drmeister: that does not seem to be related to https://twitter.com/cddadr/status/883321584546664448, does it? 2017-07-10T06:51:06Z mrcom_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T06:51:29Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:52:42Z drmeister: jdz: What I'm doing is not related to Darkmatter. Darkmatter looks cool and I'll investigate it when I get time. 2017-07-10T06:53:02Z drmeister: We are working on incorporating jupyter widgets into the cl-jupyter system. 2017-07-10T06:53:27Z jdz: Yes, cool stuff. 2017-07-10T06:53:35Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-10T06:53:48Z jdz: Poor man's CLIM :) 2017-07-10T06:53:56Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T06:56:53Z drmeister: Darkmatter looks more like a programming environment and IDE - very cool. 2017-07-10T06:57:45Z drmeister: cl-jupyter with jupyter widgets will be more for casual users to carry out interactive computations while defining a few functions. 2017-07-10T06:58:38Z drmeister: Has anyone tried Darkmatter? 2017-07-10T06:59:23Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:00:46Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:02:41Z drmeister: I have a running docker version of cl-jupyter with widgets on dockerhub.com drmeister/cando 2017-07-10T07:03:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:03:43Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:04:14Z drmeister: It automatically starts up a jupyter notebook that you can connect to with your browser. Instructions are here: https://hub.docker.com/r/drmeister/cando/ 2017-07-10T07:05:26Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:07:10Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:08:53Z blt` joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:10:04Z blt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:12:45Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-07-10T07:13:49Z carlosda1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-07-10T07:15:51Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-10T07:16:08Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:16:36Z Merv_ quit 2017-07-10T07:20:23Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T07:20:59Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:22:01Z drmeister: I suggested to Eddie that he create a docker image of Darkmatter 2017-07-10T07:22:28Z beach: Wrong channel? 2017-07-10T07:22:41Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:24:45Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:24:55Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:25:31Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:26:54Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:26:55Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:28:07Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:31:47Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:32:23Z p_l: beach: nope 2017-07-10T07:33:00Z shrdlu68: I'm wondering how to loop across the end nodes of a root structure that may keep growing. 2017-07-10T07:33:53Z loke`: shrdlu68: What structure? 2017-07-10T07:34:37Z shrdlu68: loke`: For example, a list with three element, each of which have three element... 2017-07-10T07:34:50Z shrdlu68: s/have/has 2017-07-10T07:34:55Z p_l: beach: https://github.com/tamamu/darkmatter/blob/master/README.markdown <---- not as good as SLIME et al, but quite interesting addition 2017-07-10T07:35:24Z loke`: shrdlu68: Well, 1) Use a lock. 2) Use an immutable data structure 2017-07-10T07:35:24Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:35:48Z shka: p_l: thanks, this looks nice 2017-07-10T07:38:14Z shrdlu68: loke`: Could you be more verbose? Not sure I understand. 2017-07-10T07:38:39Z loke`: shrdlu68: I'm not sure I can. Can you be more specific in your question? 2017-07-10T07:39:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:40:20Z shrdlu68: I have a unary function that produces three outputs. I am calling it recursively with each of the results. So the first time I call it, I have three objects. Calling it again with each of the three objects produces 9 objects, and so on. 2017-07-10T07:41:03Z shrdlu68: So I need a data structure that can keep track of the resulting root structure. 2017-07-10T07:41:50Z shrdlu68: If it were a list, it would have 3 elements, each of which would have 3 elements, and so on. 2017-07-10T07:42:31Z loke`: shrdlu68: Do you need to remove objects? Rearrange? 2017-07-10T07:42:48Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:43:34Z shrdlu68: loke`: Nope. I just keep appending child nodes. 2017-07-10T07:44:26Z loke`: shrdlu68: And you need a way to iterate over all the leaf nodes? 2017-07-10T07:44:49Z shrdlu68: loke`: Yes, the ones at the ends. 2017-07-10T07:45:00Z shrdlu68: The root is finite; some branches in the root lead to a dead end. But others have child nodes. 2017-07-10T07:45:24Z shrdlu68: So it's not a balanced tree/root. 2017-07-10T07:48:03Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:48:36Z shrdlu68: It's a tree structure, really, but upside down. 2017-07-10T07:48:58Z shrdlu68: So anything that works for a tree will work for it. 2017-07-10T07:50:52Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T07:51:08Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:51:36Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:51:59Z loke`: shrdlu68: Seems to me that all you want is a normal double-linked tree 2017-07-10T07:52:51Z loke`: I have a go-to implementation of red-black trees that I use whenever I have such requirement (even though it's probably overkill if you don't need to remove elements) 2017-07-10T07:53:56Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T07:54:08Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-07-10T07:55:18Z shrdlu68: loke`: I'm beginning to see the possibilities. It doesn't seem as dizzyingly complex as it did at first. 2017-07-10T07:56:25Z loke`: shrdlu68: Often just explaining the problem helps in understanding it. 2017-07-10T07:56:28Z loke`: Glad to be of help :-) 2017-07-10T07:56:43Z shrdlu68: It's a ternary tree, which means the branches increase by an order of 3 at each level. 1->3->9->27 2017-07-10T07:56:48Z shrdlu68: loke`: Thanks 2017-07-10T08:01:35Z Zhivago: shrdlu: Do you want to modify the tree while iterating it? 2017-07-10T08:02:13Z shrdlu68: Zhivago: Only the remotest nodes (the end-nodes). 2017-07-10T08:03:15Z Zhivago: Then it should be possible to model it with a todo stack. 2017-07-10T08:04:25Z Zhivago: Pop the stack, if it's a branch, push its three children onto the stack, else do something. 2017-07-10T08:04:40Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T08:05:02Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:05:27Z loke`: Zhivago: Isn't that assuming that elements are inserted in lexiograpic order? 2017-07-10T08:05:40Z shrdlu68: Zhivago: Do you have a link or something? 2017-07-10T08:06:04Z shrdlu68: Google isn't being very helpful. 2017-07-10T08:06:07Z Zhivago: It assumes that they're in an appropriate order -- which may be arbitrary. 2017-07-10T08:06:34Z Zhivago: It's just a stack of items todo. :) 2017-07-10T08:06:43Z Zhivago: Nothing interesting about it. 2017-07-10T08:06:55Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T08:08:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:09:55Z Zhivago: You can switch between depth first and breadth first using this approach if you can predict the probability of a node's children being leaves. 2017-07-10T08:10:45Z Zhivago: Otherwise the naive approach ends up with a stack size of depth + 2. 2017-07-10T08:10:48Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T08:11:28Z shrdlu68: Interestingly, the branches create simple codes(somewhat like Huffman trees), so I think I can keep track of where in the tree I am with simple codes. 00,01,01,10,11,12,20,21,22... 2017-07-10T08:11:42Z loke`: shrdlu68: In a worst-case scenario, how many elements will you have in this datastructure? 2017-07-10T08:13:54Z shrdlu68: loke`: That's determined by the function that takes one object and either returns it as it is or 3 element in its place, which depends on the input data. 2017-07-10T08:14:19Z shrdlu68: I don't know at this point how deep the roots will run. 2017-07-10T08:15:57Z shrdlu68: It's sort of a fitness computation. As long as an object is determined to be fit by the function, it will be replaced by three children. 2017-07-10T08:16:52Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:19:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:22:31Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T08:23:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:24:53Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:27:52Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:28:53Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:33:53Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:36:17Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:39:27Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:43:11Z lvo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:46:25Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T08:51:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:54:57Z malice` joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:54:59Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T08:55:35Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T08:55:51Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-10T08:58:32Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-10T09:00:42Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-07-10T09:04:46Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T09:06:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-07-10T09:08:53Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-10T09:09:15Z jamtho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T09:09:48Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-10T09:15:26Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-10T09:19:37Z azzamsa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T09:21:05Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T09:23:50Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T09:26:16Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-10T09:36:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T09:59:20Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T10:00:58Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:01:57Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T10:05:28Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T10:08:29Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:08:38Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:15:22Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T10:15:29Z jfjhh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T10:19:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T10:20:08Z airgapped joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:21:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:25:35Z S1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:25:55Z S1 left #lisp 2017-07-10T10:32:45Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T10:38:37Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:44:45Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:45:42Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:48:31Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-10T10:50:31Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T10:51:49Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T10:52:34Z airgapped quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-07-10T10:52:34Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T10:54:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T11:01:10Z mrcom_: minion: memo for deba5e12: Pretty sure cffi doesn't trap any io. Would guess it's the c library you're calling. What is it, and what Lisp are you using? 2017-07-10T11:01:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell deba5e12 when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-07-10T11:02:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-10T11:05:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T11:05:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T11:06:33Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T11:06:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-10T11:07:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-10T11:27:11Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T11:31:21Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T11:33:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T11:33:27Z thblt joined #lisp 2017-07-10T11:37:57Z antismap` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T11:41:26Z lvo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T11:59:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:01:05Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:04:07Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:06:42Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:07:18Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:07:36Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:09:27Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:10:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:13:58Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T12:15:45Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:21:10Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:22:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:31:47Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:31:56Z thblt left #lisp 2017-07-10T12:32:07Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:33:09Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:34:07Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:39:29Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:40:27Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:45:35Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T12:45:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:46:10Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:47:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:48:35Z nugnuts joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:48:38Z nugnuts_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:48:42Z nugnuts_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T12:50:13Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:52:05Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T12:57:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:02:08Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:03:06Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T13:16:34Z mulk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:18:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:22:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T13:22:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:24:11Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T13:28:23Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:32:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:33:32Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:35:41Z zm joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:37:55Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T13:39:16Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T13:42:09Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:43:21Z ksool joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:46:32Z casper_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:47:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:50:49Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:55:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T13:56:30Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T13:56:54Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:57:10Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T13:57:38Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-10T13:58:46Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T13:59:53Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:00:37Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T14:01:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:03:25Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:03:54Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T14:07:19Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:07:44Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:10:01Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T14:10:52Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:12:51Z flip214 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:12:51Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2017-07-10T14:12:51Z flip214 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:15:46Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:19:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:19:52Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:23:43Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:24:04Z ak5 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T14:25:15Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:28:12Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:28:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:30:05Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:31:59Z ruste1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:34:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:35:45Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:36:22Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:41:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T14:43:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu68: if the objects are unique (i.e. (NOT (EQL))) you could just use a flat hash-table of parent => children + a list of root nodes. 2017-07-10T14:43:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or just a reference to the root node, I guess, if you have a tree) 2017-07-10T14:43:48Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T14:46:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:48:19Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:48:45Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T14:54:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:58:32Z blt`` joined #lisp 2017-07-10T14:59:27Z blt` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:02:10Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:04:35Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:05:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:06:40Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:13:42Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T15:13:51Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:14:43Z zm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:17:12Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:18:26Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-10T15:19:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:19:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-10T15:19:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:20:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:25:58Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T15:26:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:30:44Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:33:45Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:34:25Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:35:24Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:38:39Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:40:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T15:42:38Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T15:43:55Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:44:16Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:44:43Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:47:36Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:49:27Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:53:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:53:53Z ghard joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:55:01Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:55:37Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:57:46Z blt``` joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:57:46Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T15:58:51Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-10T15:58:59Z knusbaum quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T15:59:10Z blt`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:59:46Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:00:46Z casper_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:01:06Z blt``` is now known as blt 2017-07-10T16:02:15Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:02:33Z blt quit (Changing host) 2017-07-10T16:02:33Z blt joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:05:05Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:05:48Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-10T16:07:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:07:22Z nullman joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:09:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:12:04Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:15:30Z S1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:15:42Z beach: So can (LET ((x1 f1) ... (xn fn)) ...) always be rewritten as ((lambda (x1 ... xn) ...) f1 ... fn), no matter what the LET body looks like? 2017-07-10T16:15:53Z S1 left #lisp 2017-07-10T16:16:03Z beach: ... including declarations and such. 2017-07-10T16:17:11Z jackdaniel: that's what I've read in a few places (LiSP included) 2017-07-10T16:18:16Z beach: Sounds right. 2017-07-10T16:18:45Z beach: I don't trust LiSP in this case, because he may very well simplify things for pedagogical reasons. 2017-07-10T16:19:06Z jackdaniel: I think it was a strong assertion 2017-07-10T16:19:17Z beach: OK, Good! 2017-07-10T16:19:32Z jackdaniel: I doubt he would put a simplified thing in such words (which I don't fully remember :) 2017-07-10T16:19:56Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean. 2017-07-10T16:21:40Z daemoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T16:22:05Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:25:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:27:50Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:31:40Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:33:26Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T16:34:52Z beach: Under normal circumstances I might hesitate to make such a transformation in the compiler, because the more transformations, the more cryptic the error messages will seem when things go wrong. 2017-07-10T16:34:56Z beach: However, this is part of transforming concrete syntax trees to abstract syntax trees, with source tracking preserved. I am therefore thinking that error messages will be reported relative to the location in the source code, so that the programmer does not have to decipher messages that display transformed code. 2017-07-10T16:39:23Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:40:12Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:45:39Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:45:53Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:46:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:47:30Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:49:48Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-10T16:51:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:52:09Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:54:48Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:54:59Z MrBusiness3 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:55:34Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:56:10Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:57:04Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:59:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-10T16:59:46Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:00:31Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:00:55Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T17:01:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:02:44Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:04:26Z MrBusiness3 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:06:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:06:55Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:08:40Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:09:48Z MrBusiness3 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:10:45Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-10T17:11:39Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:13:42Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T17:13:55Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:15:40Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:17:36Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-10T17:17:40Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:17:53Z ksool quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:18:14Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:18:49Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:20:24Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:21:48Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:23:04Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:26:04Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:26:25Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:26:51Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T17:26:57Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:28:24Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:31:19Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:31:24Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:31:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:35:03Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:36:12Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-10T17:44:16Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:48:11Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T17:48:31Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T17:48:52Z sucks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T17:48:53Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:49:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:50:29Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:51:05Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T17:52:32Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:52:45Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:52:59Z sucks_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T17:53:05Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:53:08Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:53:58Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:54:35Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T17:56:28Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-10T17:57:27Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:01:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:03:04Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:09:35Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:11:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T18:11:26Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T18:11:26Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T18:11:32Z mrcom__ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:11:35Z agspathis joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:12:11Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:12:52Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:13:11Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:16:43Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:16:44Z mrcom__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T18:16:54Z mrcom__ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:17:58Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T18:20:12Z o`connor joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:27:04Z mfiano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T18:28:03Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:28:09Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:29:20Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:29:38Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:29:38Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-10T18:46:04Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:46:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:46:05Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-10T18:47:54Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-10T18:48:13Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T18:49:47Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:51:41Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:52:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-10T18:56:00Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:01:27Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T19:02:19Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:02:25Z kobain quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-10T19:02:48Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:02:52Z kobain quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-10T19:03:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:03:22Z kobain quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-10T19:03:47Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:05:19Z stara joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:08:01Z stee_3 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:11:30Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:12:16Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:12:28Z stee_3_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:15:45Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:16:08Z stara quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-10T19:16:24Z stara joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:17:07Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:17:56Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T19:20:27Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:21:58Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:22:37Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:22:50Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T19:23:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:24:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:24:23Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:26:27Z stara quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-10T19:27:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:31:45Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:34:35Z __paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:34:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:37:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:39:16Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:39:40Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T19:42:09Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:42:45Z mrcom__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T19:43:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:43:59Z drmeister: mop slot-value-using-class 2017-07-10T19:43:59Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html 2017-07-10T19:45:28Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:50:06Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:50:16Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:52:26Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T19:52:36Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-10T19:55:17Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:55:21Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T19:57:17Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T19:58:31Z malice` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T19:58:40Z sucks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T20:00:28Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-07-10T20:00:51Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T20:01:28Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:01:56Z WhiskyRyan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:03:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:06:02Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 277 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:13:18Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-10T20:15:35Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:16:20Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T20:17:47Z flip214_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:17:48Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:22:28Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:24:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:24:42Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:29:23Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-10T20:29:44Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T20:30:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:33:25Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:36:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:39:45Z procl0 quit (Quit: zZZzzzZ) 2017-07-10T20:44:05Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:44:47Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:47:24Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T20:47:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:48:13Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:53:25Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-10T20:54:57Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:56:37Z grumble is now known as gurmble 2017-07-10T20:59:09Z blt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T20:59:28Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:04:01Z WhiskyRyan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T21:05:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T21:07:38Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T21:07:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:08:13Z tetero joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:09:10Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:11:38Z warweasle quit (Quit: gotta go home.) 2017-07-10T21:12:04Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:12:17Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:13:21Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T21:13:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:13:47Z tetero: Are there any modern attempts at a lisp machine? Either real or "pseudo"? I read a bit about PilMCU 2017-07-10T21:14:02Z angerTr0n: lisp machines are dead 2017-07-10T21:14:17Z random-nick: the closes thing is that lispos that runs on x86 2017-07-10T21:14:51Z tetero: Aye. I saw that. I'm mostly interested from a hobbyist point of view 2017-07-10T21:16:01Z angerTr0n: lispworks 2017-07-10T21:17:29Z tetero: angerTr0n: There's a hw implementation of lispworks? 2017-07-10T21:17:42Z angerTr0n: > PilMCU 2017-07-10T21:17:54Z angerTr0n: you consider a microcontroller running code to be a hardware lispm? 2017-07-10T21:18:16Z tetero: angerTr0n: As I said "either real or pseudo" 2017-07-10T21:18:28Z angerTr0n: then lispworks is a psuedo lispm 2017-07-10T21:18:39Z tetero: It runs on a microcontroller? 2017-07-10T21:19:24Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T21:19:39Z angerTr0n: sure; it runs on ARM64! 2017-07-10T21:19:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:20:03Z angerTr0n: see what people don't get about lisp machines is, the hardware was a means to an end. 2017-07-10T21:20:21Z angerTr0n: unless you've built a true hardware stack machine, what's the point to the HW? 2017-07-10T21:20:37Z angerTr0n: the whole idea of the lisp machine was the richness of the environment 2017-07-10T21:20:59Z angerTr0n: a half assed lisp implementation running on a microcontroller has more in common with ... well, nothing ... than a lispm 2017-07-10T21:21:18Z angerTr0n: at the time, you needed hardware concessions to deliver that experience, that vision 2017-07-10T21:21:21Z angerTr0n: today you do not. 2017-07-10T21:21:47Z angerTr0n: If you want the real experience, go run the Explorer or Cadr emulator 2017-07-10T21:21:58Z angerTr0n: or run Genera / SNAP 2017-07-10T21:22:10Z angerTr0n: if you don't, use the plethora of other available options 2017-07-10T21:22:16Z tetero: angerTr0n: I don't colloquially consider ARM64 to be a microcontroller, but I can't say you're wrong. I am mostly interested in a "lisp machine" (with the quotes) from a hobbyist sort of view, it doesn't have to be a 'true' lisp machine so to speak 2017-07-10T21:22:39Z angerTr0n: then write your own interpreter :) 2017-07-10T21:22:54Z angerTr0n: I am working on one for the 8086 / GRiD Compass platform 2017-07-10T21:22:57Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-07-10T21:23:25Z angerTr0n: which certainly is closer to "microcontroller" territory than ARM64 2017-07-10T21:24:39Z Bike: i mean if "lisp machine" means "hardware with instructions for using tags" then like is it a huge deal 2017-07-10T21:24:49Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T21:24:59Z angerTr0n: Bike: hardware /stack machine/ with instructions for using tags 2017-07-10T21:25:07Z tetero: angerTr0n: Aye. That'd be a lot of fun to play around with. I'd love to write an interpreter for it, but I'm quite new to Lisp. I really like it, it feels like the language that doesn't leave me annoyed, but I've still got a lot to learn to say the least 2017-07-10T21:25:09Z angerTr0n: but that doesn't sound like what tetero is after 2017-07-10T21:25:40Z angerTr0n: lisp machine means different things to different people 2017-07-10T21:25:42Z tetero: I'd love a real lisp machine, but since it's 2017 I'd settle, basically. 2017-07-10T21:25:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:25:52Z angerTr0n: you don't want a lisp machine 2017-07-10T21:25:56Z angerTr0n: a "real" lisp machine 2017-07-10T21:25:59Z angerTr0n: I have 13 of them 2017-07-10T21:26:01Z tetero: No? 2017-07-10T21:26:09Z Bike: well, what do you want? specifically? 2017-07-10T21:26:21Z angerTr0n: I collect #bigshit, this isn't my first rodeo. they're the most awful systems to keep running 2017-07-10T21:26:23Z Bike: what aspects of the lisp machine interest you 2017-07-10T21:26:30Z angerTr0n: Bike: right, that's still not clear 2017-07-10T21:26:38Z tetero: I'd like to play with some kind of hardware implemented lisp 2017-07-10T21:26:41Z angerTr0n: CPU implementation? Environment? 2017-07-10T21:26:53Z tetero: As I've never used any arch that has an implemented language before 2017-07-10T21:26:54Z angerTr0n: tetero: you and I have different ideas of what "hardware implemented lisp" means 2017-07-10T21:27:07Z angerTr0n: also you have no idea what you're talking about 2017-07-10T21:27:09Z Bike: modern lisp implementations compile to machine code 2017-07-10T21:27:13Z angerTr0n: no lisp machines ran lisp in hardware 2017-07-10T21:27:18Z tetero: angerTr0n: Yeah? I'm sure a lot of that has to do with my not being very well versed in what a lisp machine really entails aside from the surface ofi t 2017-07-10T21:27:32Z tetero: angerTr0n: They didn't? 2017-07-10T21:27:36Z angerTr0n: no. 2017-07-10T21:27:43Z Bike: lisp is kind of complicated for that 2017-07-10T21:27:57Z Bike: you don't need, like, an integrated circuit to handle the formatted printer :p 2017-07-10T21:27:59Z tetero: So there was some software component, even on real lisp machines? 2017-07-10T21:28:09Z angerTr0n: How can you say you "want" a real lisp machine, and not know how they work. sorry, this is something that bugs me. So many people "want a lispm" and have no idea what they consist of 2017-07-10T21:28:09Z Bike: uh... yeah 2017-07-10T21:28:18Z Bike: you thought otherwise? i'm curious how you figured that. 2017-07-10T21:28:30Z tetero: That was poorly phrased. 2017-07-10T21:28:49Z Bike: take your time 2017-07-10T21:29:13Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T21:29:25Z tetero: What I should've said was 'So lisp was running in software, like it does on my computers, even on a lisp machine?' 2017-07-10T21:29:38Z angerTr0n: lisp machines implement an ISA just like every other chip out there. There are compilers. Lisp is compiled into machine code. The CPU runs machine code 2017-07-10T21:29:38Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:29:42Z angerTr0n: yes, even on a lisp machine 2017-07-10T21:29:48Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean by "running in software" in this point, honestly 2017-07-10T21:29:52Z tetero: Ah. 2017-07-10T21:30:07Z Bike: i mean, if you have your boring x86 machine, and you write a C program as per unix norms, that still gets compiled, it's not like the hardware "runs C" 2017-07-10T21:30:14Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:30:18Z tetero: Bike: You can probably just nevermind it, I'm not well versed in this, and I'm likely making mistakes and assumptions regarding this that's unnecessarily confusing 2017-07-10T21:30:27Z angerTr0n: that ISA has concessions for lisp-y things, and was designed to make lisp run quickly on the hardware of the day, but you could implement other compilers too 2017-07-10T21:30:30Z Bike: kay. it's cool. 2017-07-10T21:31:03Z tetero: Yeah I know that hardware doesn't run C. But I wasn't around when lisp machines existed, and I somehow got the impression that the language itself is implemented on a hardware level 2017-07-10T21:31:15Z angerTr0n: tetero: just careful when you say you want a lisp machine. It would be like if I went into a gallery saying "I want to buy a real monet," and not know the slightest thing about them 2017-07-10T21:31:27Z tetero: angerTr0n: Good point 2017-07-10T21:31:42Z angerTr0n: And I wasn't around when they existed either. 2017-07-10T21:31:56Z Bike: the lisp machine ISA had some things that made implementing lisp easier than other contemporary machines, but i don't know the details 2017-07-10T21:32:00Z tetero: To turn this around into something less confusing, how do you lisp machines work angerTr0n? 2017-07-10T21:32:18Z tetero: your* 2017-07-10T21:32:24Z angerTr0n: at the core, most were machines with no general purpose registers. They were true stack machines 2017-07-10T21:32:31Z Bike: you can look at something like http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html "ultimate opcode" that has a genuinely different processor organization, but there'd still be software 2017-07-10T21:32:55Z angerTr0n: note, I don't count like, Xerox 1186 as real lisp machines 2017-07-10T21:33:11Z angerTr0n: Although I did restore one recently 2017-07-10T21:34:10Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-10T21:34:15Z angerTr0n: anyway, in actuality, how my lisp machines work is: Poorly! They're complicated beasts with an obscenely high failure rate. They pushed the physical limits of what was possible with the tech available, and they're near impossible to keep running. 2017-07-10T21:34:58Z White_Flame: what was their resilience like back when they were new? did they constantly need service contract attention to keep them running, or were they reliable? 2017-07-10T21:35:05Z tetero: Oh. So lisp machines architecture were designed to be conducive to lisp rather than implementing the entire language on silicon? 2017-07-10T21:35:14Z angerTr0n: White_Flame: they were awful then too 2017-07-10T21:35:22Z angerTr0n: White_Flame: I have photos of facilities in the 80s 2017-07-10T21:35:25Z angerTr0n: you can see covers removed 2017-07-10T21:35:29Z angerTr0n: boards pulled out 2017-07-10T21:35:30Z angerTr0n: etc 2017-07-10T21:35:33Z White_Flame: heh 2017-07-10T21:35:43Z angerTr0n: none of the console lids appear to be screwed down 2017-07-10T21:35:49Z angerTr0n: afaik they have always been tempermental 2017-07-10T21:35:51Z tetero: angerTr0n: I didn't know they had a high failure rate 2017-07-10T21:36:02Z angerTr0n: few people know much of anything tetero 2017-07-10T21:36:11Z angerTr0n: information is thin on the ground 2017-07-10T21:36:48Z White_Flame: but yeah, as has been said above, their advantage was the environment that was fully Lisp 2017-07-10T21:36:50Z Bike: tetero: yeah, again, like, if you ever give silicon design a shot, implementing a high level language is just... not even a good idea really 2017-07-10T21:37:13Z White_Flame: and that environment can be literally achieved (genera emulation), poorly achieved (emacs lol), or re-researched (mezzano) 2017-07-10T21:37:27Z tetero: Bike: I was wondering a lot about that! I don't know all that much about architectures, but I was wondering how exactly implementing a high level language worked for that 2017-07-10T21:37:35Z angerTr0n: take a look at brad's site 2017-07-10T21:37:41Z angerTr0n: http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Mit 2017-07-10T21:37:43Z Bike: you said you were new to lisp, but you presumably know some kind of programming, and any language you know probably has some structures that would just be difficult 2017-07-10T21:37:56Z angerTr0n: if you want to know how the Explorer, Bolix, etc. worked 2017-07-10T21:37:59Z tetero: Bike: Aye. 2017-07-10T21:38:01Z angerTr0n: look at the CADR "macrocode" 2017-07-10T21:38:06Z angerTr0n: macrocode refers to the ISA 2017-07-10T21:38:18Z angerTr0n: contrast to microcode, which 'wires' the CPU to consume the ISA 2017-07-10T21:38:36Z White_Flame: It would probably be useful to first learn lisp well enough to read dissassemblies of your functions, to see how those features are implemented, to have something a bit more familiar to relate all this info to 2017-07-10T21:38:45Z angerTr0n: White_Flame++ 2017-07-10T21:38:55Z Bike: that seems like it got weird sometimes. my arch professor in school said he implemented binary search in microcode on a vax. like, why even have that as an instruction 2017-07-10T21:39:08Z tetero: angerTr0n: That's really interesting! 2017-07-10T21:39:08Z White_Flame: then you can consider what silicon might bring to the assembly-level implementation 2017-07-10T21:39:26Z angerTr0n: Bike: machines with writable microcode could let you do very silly things 2017-07-10T21:39:27Z angerTr0n: :) 2017-07-10T21:39:34Z angerTr0n: the later vaxes didn't have this functionality 2017-07-10T21:39:36Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:39:40Z Bike: and of course there was already an 'evaluate polynomial' instruction, and that's basically just a MAD loop 2017-07-10T21:39:45Z angerTr0n: heh 2017-07-10T21:39:47Z angerTr0n: yep 2017-07-10T21:39:49Z angerTr0n: well 2017-07-10T21:39:54Z angerTr0n: depends on the VAX implementation 2017-07-10T21:40:04Z angerTr0n: on the CVAX / NVAX it unrolled to an obscene loop 2017-07-10T21:40:09Z angerTr0n: earlier ones had more HW assist 2017-07-10T21:40:17Z Bike: obscenity sounds promising 2017-07-10T21:40:27Z tetero: angerTr0n: Just a general disclaimer, a lot of the things you're talking about now are above my head. I'm reading and trying to learn from it, but just don't expect me to just get it. Thanks a lot for taking the time to explaining it though :-) 2017-07-10T21:40:35Z angerTr0n: I have an 11/750 VAX in my garage 2017-07-10T21:40:41Z angerTr0n: it's got the writeable control store 2017-07-10T21:40:47Z angerTr0n: I should bastardize the microcode sometime 2017-07-10T21:41:00Z tetero: Got any pics of your machines angerTr0n? 2017-07-10T21:41:08Z angerTr0n: the 36XX lispm had writeable microcode too but I don't think the docs on how to extend it got released 2017-07-10T21:41:28Z Bike: part of my professor's story was that to write this instruction he had to jack an internals manual from a repair technician 2017-07-10T21:41:35Z angerTr0n: tetero: I removed all LISPM pictures from my instagram because it was generating a lot of interest in obtaining hardware from people who were wholly unqualified to repair it 2017-07-10T21:41:45Z angerTr0n: that's why I'm a little defensive about people stating they "want" lisp machines 2017-07-10T21:42:03Z tetero: Ah. I understand. 2017-07-10T21:42:19Z shka_: i just want symbolics style keyboard 2017-07-10T21:42:22Z angerTr0n: I've spend many thousands of hours, travelled many thousands of miles, and spent many thousands of dollars restoring my LISP machines, so it frustrated me when my instagram generated renewed interest from people 2017-07-10T21:42:25Z tetero: shka_: What's that? 2017-07-10T21:42:27Z angerTr0n: see shka_ that's just as awful 2017-07-10T21:42:32Z angerTr0n: it's so hard to find keyboards 2017-07-10T21:42:37Z angerTr0n: people like you poached them all 2017-07-10T21:42:37Z Bike: probably cheaper, though 2017-07-10T21:42:38Z shka_: angerTr0n: not original 2017-07-10T21:42:40Z angerTr0n: ah 2017-07-10T21:42:42Z angerTr0n: well 2017-07-10T21:42:43Z shka_: just good looking copy 2017-07-10T21:42:45Z angerTr0n: I can respect that :) 2017-07-10T21:42:51Z angerTr0n: we should work on one 2017-07-10T21:42:58Z angerTr0n: I have mechanical drawings somewhere 2017-07-10T21:42:59Z angerTr0n: anyway 2017-07-10T21:43:00Z shka_: just because it was looking awesome 2017-07-10T21:43:02Z angerTr0n: my instagram is 2017-07-10T21:43:05Z angerTr0n is now known as trinitr0n 2017-07-10T21:43:15Z trinitr0n: http://instagram.com/tr1nitr0n 2017-07-10T21:43:18Z shka_: like seriously, perhaps the most elegant keyboard ever 2017-07-10T21:43:21Z Bike: tetero: anyway, if you want to understand, a good step might be to write a lisp interpreter. just a basic one, read SICP and stuff. 2017-07-10T21:43:25Z trinitr0n: there are pics there of some of my non-lisp hardware 2017-07-10T21:43:35Z trinitr0n: all the lisp stuff has been taken down for aforementioned reasons 2017-07-10T21:43:38Z Bike: that obviously wont include hardware considerations, but you probably don't actually want to learn/use verilog, at least at first 2017-07-10T21:43:48Z trinitr0n: "I restored a SparcStation so, I'm qualified to maintain a symbolics" 2017-07-10T21:43:52Z trinitr0n: /s 2017-07-10T21:43:58Z trinitr0n: (actual message I got) 2017-07-10T21:43:58Z tetero: Bike: I'll try to do that, but just keep in mind that I'm still learning the lisp paradigm and that it might take a while 2017-07-10T21:44:24Z Bike: i'm not exactly on a time crunch here, heh 2017-07-10T21:44:38Z Bike: but it's surprisingly easy, a really basic interpreter is like a page 2017-07-10T21:44:50Z tetero: trinitr0n: nice 2017-07-10T21:45:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T21:45:08Z Bike: a more hardware amenable vm and a basic compiler for it could be, iunno, five pages 2017-07-10T21:45:16Z foom: modern x86 implementations also have writable microcode 2017-07-10T21:45:20Z tetero: Bike: Really? I've noticed that some things, in lisp, are much easier to implement than I would've thought (based on experience in other languages) 2017-07-10T21:45:20Z foom: just...not for *you* to write 2017-07-10T21:45:25Z trinitr0n: foom: correct ;) 2017-07-10T21:45:36Z Bike: tetero: it seems to surprise people! 2017-07-10T21:45:37Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T21:45:41Z tetero: Bike: It really does 2017-07-10T21:45:41Z trinitr0n: foom: for the chinese government to write :D 2017-07-10T21:45:46Z Bike: "oh, a language implementation, that must take a lot of work" naw 2017-07-10T21:45:54Z Bike: i mean a really good one, sure 2017-07-10T21:46:09Z tetero: Bike: I'm not sure how to explain it. At the same time Lisp seems to be steep in terms of *knowing* it, it seems to be much easier as well, does that make sense? 2017-07-10T21:46:13Z trinitr0n: yeah lisp is a pretty easy thing to get running, and a hard thing to get running well 2017-07-10T21:46:15Z foom: Well, we hope it's only for intel to write, and that they take good care of the signing keys. (for intel chips) 2017-07-10T21:46:22Z Bike: not to me, but i probably don't need to know 2017-07-10T21:46:25Z trinitr0n: foom: of course, I'm kidding 2017-07-10T21:46:27Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T21:46:44Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:47:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-10T21:47:26Z Bike: it's like, you know, you take a basic Fundamentals of Computinators class and learn lambda calculus, but maybe it still seems like a strange math thing instead of a programming language you can implement in ten minutes 2017-07-10T21:47:34Z tetero: Bike: Either way, what matters is that I enjoy writing Lisp, even though it's not quality Lisp so far. I never feel as though the language is working against me, or constraining me, I just feel as though I'm constrained by my own knowledge, which is awesome. 2017-07-10T21:47:50Z tetero: Bike: I'm fine with maths :-) 2017-07-10T21:47:54Z Bike: that's cool. 2017-07-10T21:48:01Z tetero: I'm into physics 2017-07-10T21:48:08Z trinitr0n: anyway, I no longer have any Lisp Machine pics on social media, but I have restored a Symbolics 3620, 3630, 3640, 3650, XL400, XL1200, MacIvory 2 and a Xerox 1186 2017-07-10T21:48:14Z Bike: (that was a general "you", not you specifically) 2017-07-10T21:48:18Z trinitr0n: you can google those models if you're curious 2017-07-10T21:48:23Z tetero: Bike: Yeah I understood 2017-07-10T21:48:58Z trinitr0n: of course, the Xerox is an inferior west-coast lispm 2017-07-10T21:49:23Z Bike: unfortunately if you do want to try hardware design the language will, in fact, work against you (though migen looks a little better than verilog or vhdl) 2017-07-10T21:49:41Z trinitr0n writes his best Verilog while drunk 2017-07-10T21:50:00Z Bike: i write my worst verilog while drunk, but it's all basically the same quality so it works 2017-07-10T21:50:34Z vtomole: When would i use a compiler macro? 2017-07-10T21:50:57Z Bike: not often 2017-07-10T21:51:17Z Bike: when you have some optimization for a function that you can apply at source level that isn't covered by inlining and letting the compiler do it 2017-07-10T21:52:28Z tetero: trinitr0n: Ha. I associate the term 'west coast' heavily with 'west coast modular synthesis' :) 2017-07-10T21:52:58Z tetero: Bike: I suppose that makes sense 2017-07-10T21:53:16Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T21:53:42Z Bike: oh, do you do music stuff? "patch" based things like max/msp offer an interesting alternate hardware organization for computers 2017-07-10T21:54:00Z Bike: (when i use scare quotes like that it's because i do not do music stuff) 2017-07-10T21:54:02Z tetero: Bike: Yeah! I used max/msp before building a real analog modular synth :-) 2017-07-10T21:54:16Z tetero: Bike: max/msp is great. I used another one before that, I think it was called Buzz or some such 2017-07-10T21:54:58Z tetero: Bike: There's even a max/msp plugin for my ADAT-module for my modular synth so you can output CV from max 2017-07-10T21:55:06Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-10T21:55:07Z trinitr0n has PTSD flashbacks of LabView 2017-07-10T21:55:25Z Bike: tragical 2017-07-10T21:55:29Z trinitr0n self-terminates 2017-07-10T21:56:19Z tetero: trinitr0n: Is it just that small monitor or does Doom look better on that machine than I recall it? 2017-07-10T21:56:32Z trinitr0n: it's all about nice CRTs 2017-07-10T21:56:40Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T21:57:11Z tetero: Might be :) 2017-07-10T21:57:20Z tetero: trinitr0n: lol @ "UNIX is stupid and considered harmful" 2017-07-10T21:57:25Z tetero: cat? :) 2017-07-10T21:57:37Z trinitr0n: unix /is/ stupid! 2017-07-10T21:59:18Z tetero: trinitr0n: I meant, it's in reference to the rob pike presentation right? 2017-07-10T21:59:46Z trinitr0n: no, I hate rob pike. He developed that stupid BLiT thing in one of my pictures- the most asstastic mess of UNIX ideology ever produced 2017-07-10T21:59:56Z trinitr0n: programming the BLiT makes me want to die. 2017-07-10T22:00:25Z tetero: trinitr0n: BLiT? I have never even heard of that 2017-07-10T22:00:27Z trinitr0n: it's in reference to UNIX being bad and detrimental to overall progress in the field of operating systems 2017-07-10T22:00:58Z trinitr0n: it's such a pervasive common denominator, it probably set us back a decade or more 2017-07-10T22:01:13Z trinitr0n: unless you really dig C and bags of bytes 2017-07-10T22:01:23Z trinitr0n: then again, don't listen to me, I'm an opinionated ass 2017-07-10T22:02:36Z tetero: trinitr0n: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_Harmful - I thought it was in reference to this (it really fits) | as for you being opinionated, I love that, and you're far from an ass, strong opinions that differ from the norm is, to me, having an opinion in the first place. 2017-07-10T22:03:02Z White_Flame: I won't listen to you, I'll just re-read my own rants about how Unix sucks, text streams are a terrible communication substrate for machines, heirarchy is not a good global storage model, coarse rigid permission granularity sucks, etc 2017-07-10T22:03:08Z dTal: Ech, it's unfair to blame that on Unix - *any* common platform would have stagnated 2017-07-10T22:03:26Z tetero: What of Plan9 / Inferno etc? 2017-07-10T22:06:00Z vtomole: Bike: I'm slowly learning how to write compilers. Learning a language for a backend will take a lot of time. What should one consider when trying to choose a backend? Why should I learn x86-64 or arm when i should learn llvm ir and cover all achitectures? Or why not compile to a language i know like C? 2017-07-10T22:06:02Z dTal: Besides, anyone who claims that this or that "set back the field", they need to say relative to what :) 2017-07-10T22:06:24Z Bike: vtomole: why not indeed, those are good options 2017-07-10T22:06:52Z Bike: i mean, if you want to learn to do a code generator, it's definitely easier to start with something like that 2017-07-10T22:07:21Z Bike: that said it would probably be good to learn at least one actual processor architecture to give you some idea of how things work under a hood 2017-07-10T22:07:25Z Bike: but you can do that later 2017-07-10T22:07:46Z vtomole: Bike: What do you suggest i start with? 2017-07-10T22:07:48Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:08:36Z Bike: i guess i would whip up a VM definition and a quick interpreter, and compile to that 2017-07-10T22:08:43Z Bike: something simple like a stack machine 2017-07-10T22:09:14Z Bike: llvm ir means learning the llvm interfaces which are... sometimes not great, and C means dealing with C which is C 2017-07-10T22:10:15Z vtomole: Bike: I went through Norvig's compiler and i still don't fully understand how a stack machine works. 2017-07-10T22:12:33Z vtomole: How are 6-7 ops codes capable of executing so many diffrent lisp expressions? 2017-07-10T22:13:32Z Bike: do you know, like, turing machine stuff? computers can be very simple 2017-07-10T22:13:52Z Bike: you can have a machine with only one instruction, decrement and jump if zero i think is one 2017-07-10T22:14:25Z Bike: brb 2017-07-10T22:14:48Z vtomole: OK 2017-07-10T22:16:01Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T22:18:48Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-10T22:20:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:20:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-10T22:20:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:23:50Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:25:26Z trinitr0n: dTal: a fair enough argument 2017-07-10T22:25:37Z trinitr0n: 22:03 < dTal> Besides, anyone who claims that this or that "set back the field", they need to say relative to what :) 2017-07-10T22:26:00Z trinitr0n: "i just know it did, okay?" 2017-07-10T22:27:09Z trinitr0n: however, unix still sucks xD 2017-07-10T22:29:19Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-10T22:29:40Z tetero: trinitr0n: Exactly how do you think Unix sucks? 2017-07-10T22:29:47Z trinitr0n: http://simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf 2017-07-10T22:32:11Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:32:12Z tetero: "Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. I don't think that's a coincidence." that's not even factual ^^ 2017-07-10T22:33:26Z trinitr0n: a cheap shot; there's nothing wrong with LSD 2017-07-10T22:33:35Z trinitr0n: UNIX on the other hand... 2017-07-10T22:33:51Z tetero: BSD, which I'm assuming they're referring to, isn't actually Unix, but a Unix-like clone made at Berkeley whereas Unix was made by Bell Labs 2017-07-10T22:34:02Z tetero: I've never tried LSD, but I'd like to. 2017-07-10T22:34:12Z trinitr0n: BSD was the predominant UNIX of the 80s 2017-07-10T22:34:18Z trinitr0n: and 90s 2017-07-10T22:34:19Z tetero: BSD was never Unix 2017-07-10T22:34:22Z trinitr0n: when this was written 2017-07-10T22:34:23Z tetero: and also, it's Unix, not UNIX :) 2017-07-10T22:34:32Z trinitr0n: eh, it really was 2017-07-10T22:34:38Z d4ryus3 joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:34:41Z tetero: Nope. 2017-07-10T22:34:42Z trinitr0n: like, I don't care about precision here 2017-07-10T22:34:45Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-10T22:34:54Z trinitr0n: nor did Sun when they called the Sun2 a unix workstation 2017-07-10T22:35:06Z tetero: In order to be Unix you need to be certified Unix 2017-07-10T22:35:07Z trinitr0n: or the various groups that marketed BSD 4.2 services on VAX 2017-07-10T22:35:11Z tetero: Like, ironically, MacOSX is today 2017-07-10T22:35:13Z trinitr0n: jesus christ kid 2017-07-10T22:35:17Z trinitr0n: get in the headspace 2017-07-10T22:35:31Z trinitr0n: this is talking about VAXes and Sun 2s 2017-07-10T22:35:38Z trinitr0n: no one gave a fuck what Unix(TM) was 2017-07-10T22:35:41Z tetero: I wasn't around back then! 2017-07-10T22:35:45Z trinitr0n: NEITHER WAS I 2017-07-10T22:35:57Z tetero: So neither of us knows anything :D 2017-07-10T22:36:09Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T22:36:11Z trinitr0n: Most people consider a Sun 2 a 'unix' workstation 2017-07-10T22:36:22Z trinitr0n: most people consider a VAX running BSD 4.2 to be a 'unix' system 2017-07-10T22:36:36Z trinitr0n: most people consider a RIDGE supermini running RidgeIX to be a 'unix' box 2017-07-10T22:36:38Z tetero: trinitr0n: But they aren't! 2017-07-10T22:36:41Z trinitr0n: these are all BSD offshoots 2017-07-10T22:36:56Z tetero: trinitr0n: But anyways, getting past the semantics and Unix vs Unix-like etc. This pdf seems worth reading 2017-07-10T22:37:03Z trinitr0n: referring each time as "unix-like" gets really old, dude 2017-07-10T22:37:07Z tetero: Yeah I know 2017-07-10T22:37:12Z tetero: I'm just an old bsd-user ;P 2017-07-10T22:37:16Z trinitr0n: no one ran proper unix in the 80s 2017-07-10T22:37:22Z trinitr0n: Unix(TM) 2017-07-10T22:37:39Z tetero: They did.. but ok :) 2017-07-10T22:37:44Z juanrgar joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:37:48Z trinitr0n: the BSD derived stuff was what most people had exposure to 2017-07-10T22:37:53Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T22:37:55Z trinitr0n: BSD > Ultrix on VAX 2017-07-10T22:38:04Z trinitr0n: BSD is what shipped on the Sun systems 2017-07-10T22:38:05Z trinitr0n: etc 2017-07-10T22:38:14Z trinitr0n: right there is like 50% of your market 2017-07-10T22:38:23Z tetero: trinitr0n: Let's just agree that Microsoft's Xenix was the best ever Unix 2017-07-10T22:38:27Z tetero: ;p 2017-07-10T22:38:52Z tetero: trinitr0n: Sun shipped BSD? I wasn't aware of that 2017-07-10T22:39:18Z Cthulhux: depends 2017-07-10T22:39:29Z trinitr0n: SunOS 1 and 2 were almost pure BSD 4.2 2017-07-10T22:39:33Z Cthulhux: solaris probably incorporates quite some BSD code 2017-07-10T22:39:35Z trinitr0n: given the content of the unix hater's handbook 2017-07-10T22:39:48Z trinitr0n: that's the sort of thing they were gunning against 2017-07-10T22:40:27Z trinitr0n: side note: I have a 1983 Sun-2 / 120 running SunOS 2 and it is pure unadulterated garbage 2017-07-10T22:40:29Z tetero: Interesting. I only ever used SunOS (or rather Solaris at that point) in -04 when Sun was deteriorating 2017-07-10T22:40:36Z Cthulhux: BSD, which I'm assuming they're referring to, isn't actually Unix, but a Unix-like clone << BSD is a distribution of unix. debian is not a linux clone either 2017-07-10T22:40:44Z Cthulhux sighs 2017-07-10T22:41:07Z tetero: Cthulhux: BSD isn't, and has never been to my knowledge, certified Unix 2017-07-10T22:41:07Z trinitr0n: yeah like, quite arguing about what amounts to trademarks 2017-07-10T22:41:12Z trinitr0n: *quit 2017-07-10T22:41:24Z trinitr0n: BRB doing market research in my time machine 2017-07-10T22:41:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:41:39Z Cthulhux: tetero, nobody talked about "certified unix" here. 1BSD and 2BSD were mostly "bell unix plus extra tools" 2017-07-10T22:41:42Z trinitr0n: ah turns out 0% of people give >0 fucks about certified unix 2017-07-10T22:41:48Z Cthulhux: = distro = "a real unix" 2017-07-10T22:42:00Z trinitr0n: good thing I have this time machine to do 1980s market research with huh Cthulhux 2017-07-10T22:42:05Z tetero: Ah. Then we have differing definitions. 2017-07-10T22:42:13Z trinitr0n: tetero: your definition is bad 2017-07-10T22:42:18Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:42:18Z trinitr0n: (and you should feel bad) 2017-07-10T22:42:22Z tetero: My definition is exactly defined 2017-07-10T22:42:22Z trinitr0n: is what we're saying here. 2017-07-10T22:42:24Z Cthulhux: there is even a linux distribution which is a "certified unix" 2017-07-10T22:42:29Z Cthulhux: k/ux or so 2017-07-10T22:42:31Z Cthulhux: bullshit 2017-07-10T22:42:40Z tetero: Cthulhux: OSX is certified unix these days. Ironically. 2017-07-10T22:42:41Z Bike: vtomole: but yeah, compiling means turning an algorithm with one set of operations to use (function calls, return-from, "numbers") into one with a different set (jump, bit patterns) that does the same thing, and is more amenable to being constructed out of vacuum tubes or whatever they make computers out of now 2017-07-10T22:42:58Z trinitr0n: your definition is a trademark cash grab one tetero. Cthulhux are going from technical lineage 2017-07-10T22:43:12Z Bike: so naturally the latter can be more... impoverished 2017-07-10T22:43:28Z tetero: trinitr0n: Fair enough. 2017-07-10T22:44:08Z Cthulhux: the only surviving "real unices" as of today are AIX, HP-UX and half-dead solaris 2017-07-10T22:44:16Z Cthulhux: sadly. 2017-07-10T22:44:25Z tetero: And OSX (counting certification) ;P 2017-07-10T22:44:33Z Cthulhux: tetero: SHOO! 2017-07-10T22:44:42Z tetero: Cthulhux: Okay, okay, I'm not even going to try and defend that one :D 2017-07-10T22:44:45Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: this kid... 2017-07-10T22:45:04Z Cthulhux: probably an apple customer :< 2017-07-10T22:45:41Z trinitr0n: Anyway, seeing as I have a running VAX 11/750 running BSD 4.2, a PDP 11/40 running ULTRIX, a pile of lisp machines, an AT&T 3B2 running SYS V, and that stupid Sun 2 all networked together 2017-07-10T22:45:50Z trinitr0n: I'm gonna use my definition of what Unix is. 2017-07-10T22:46:08Z trinitr0n: #sorrynotsorry 2017-07-10T22:46:16Z tetero: Not an apple customer. 2017-07-10T22:46:17Z Cthulhux: btw. the multics emulator 1.0 was released 2017-07-10T22:46:21Z holycow: trinitr0n: you have those physical machines? 2017-07-10T22:46:25Z Bike: use negative theology. we know GNU's Not Unix, so from there we can find more things unix isn't 2017-07-10T22:46:26Z trinitr0n: but we're way off topic here, sorry to the rest of the folk here 2017-07-10T22:46:32Z trinitr0n: holycow: yes 2017-07-10T22:46:36Z holycow: woooooo 2017-07-10T22:46:38Z holycow: *highfive* 2017-07-10T22:46:38Z tetero: Cthulhux: As for AIX, it's dead too 2017-07-10T22:46:53Z Cthulhux: tetero, it's still sold, advertised and supported. 2017-07-10T22:46:56Z trinitr0n: holycow: thx! 2017-07-10T22:47:01Z holycow: i have been enjoying videos of getting old machines up and running recently 2017-07-10T22:47:06Z holycow: i'm looking to get some lisp machiens my self 2017-07-10T22:47:09Z tetero: Cthulhux: Yeah, but IBM has switched to Linux 2017-07-10T22:47:14Z trinitr0n: eh, holycow, please don't 2017-07-10T22:47:18Z trinitr0n: they're really hard to keep running 2017-07-10T22:47:21Z tetero: Cthulhux: They're "maintaining it in the meantime" 2017-07-10T22:47:21Z Cthulhux: tetero, IBM has linux, z/OS (?) and AIX 2017-07-10T22:47:28Z Cthulhux: no "switch". 2017-07-10T22:47:29Z trinitr0n: they sound like a good idea but you will be in way over your head 2017-07-10T22:47:32Z trinitr0n: trust me 2017-07-10T22:47:36Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T22:47:47Z holycow: trinitr0n: *nod* i'm building in a budget to hire people to do that 2017-07-10T22:48:02Z trinitr0n: LOL who exactly do you expect to hire! 2017-07-10T22:48:02Z holycow: its a long term thing, not spur of the moment 2017-07-10T22:48:13Z holycow: eh, who knows :) there are people around 2017-07-10T22:48:21Z trinitr0n: no, there really truly aren't 2017-07-10T22:48:43Z tetero: Cthulhux: It's really old news: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2474897/ding-dong--aix-is-dead--ibm-doubles-down-on-linux--as-microsoft-gives-up-.html 2017-07-10T22:49:38Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T22:49:49Z holycow: ah here is the video, loved watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OQMhvArI9g 2017-07-10T22:49:53Z Cthulhux: tetero, we seem to have different perceptions of deatg as well 2017-07-10T22:50:00Z Cthulhux: anything else wrong with you? 2017-07-10T22:50:00Z holycow: the xerox alto really was amazing for it's time 2017-07-10T22:50:07Z Cthulhux: *death 2017-07-10T22:50:14Z tetero: Cthulhux: I don't think so seeing as you consider Solaris half-dead. AIX is in that same boat. 2017-07-10T22:50:19Z trinitr0n: oh god the alto restore team 2017-07-10T22:50:20Z Cthulhux: holycow, hey, the alto is alive. they have a http client for it! 2017-07-10T22:50:25Z tetero: Cthulhux: Look at when the latest release of AIX was 2017-07-10T22:50:27Z trinitr0n: those guys are... special 2017-07-10T22:50:28Z holycow: what? wow! 2017-07-10T22:50:37Z trinitr0n: also the alto is documented 2017-07-10T22:50:44Z trinitr0n: the lispm isn't 2017-07-10T22:50:48Z Cthulhux: tetero, solaris (one of the solaris...es) is officially developed (!) by oracle. 2017-07-10T22:51:09Z tetero: Cthulhux: Right, and the latest release of Solaris was released about the same time as the latest release of AIX 2017-07-10T22:51:36Z Cthulhux: tetero, AIX: last released 20 months ago. now how long has windows 10 been released? is windows dead? see! 2017-07-10T22:51:47Z tetero: Please. 2017-07-10T22:51:54Z Cthulhux: tetero, solaris is a "rolling release" now. at least that's what oracle said. 2017-07-10T22:51:58Z Cthulhux: no more "releases". 2017-07-10T22:52:03Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: Sauracle 2017-07-10T22:52:07Z tetero: Ha. "rolling release" 2017-07-10T22:52:26Z Cthulhux: trinitr0n, i deeply hate oracle for stomping sun. 2017-07-10T22:52:39Z Cthulhux: 'orrible :-) 2017-07-10T22:52:51Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: I may hate unix and sun, but I hate oracle for crushing a viable competitor 2017-07-10T22:53:01Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-10T22:53:01Z Cthulhux: sun was ok 2017-07-10T22:53:02Z trinitr0n: cuz I hate commodity linux more hahahahaha 2017-07-10T22:53:10Z Cthulhux: sun was innovative 2017-07-10T22:53:10Z trinitr0n: far more 2017-07-10T22:53:15Z Cthulhux: minus the java part 2017-07-10T22:53:15Z trinitr0n: yup 2017-07-10T22:53:20Z Cthulhux: java was unncecessary 2017-07-10T22:53:23Z tetero: Solaris had DTrace and fault manager which were awesome 2017-07-10T22:53:34Z Cthulhux: sun also invented ZFS 2017-07-10T22:53:38Z tetero: yep 2017-07-10T22:53:39Z Cthulhux: and sparc 2017-07-10T22:53:43Z tetero: yep 2017-07-10T22:53:45Z Cthulhux: one of the things 'orrible killed 2017-07-10T22:53:46Z Cthulhux: :( 2017-07-10T22:53:47Z trinitr0n: sparc. gross. 2017-07-10T22:53:57Z trinitr0n kicks a stack of sparcbooks 2017-07-10T22:54:04Z tetero: Good stuff. I heard (not sure if reliable) that Java was released, as an exec decision, prior to it being ready 2017-07-10T22:54:19Z tetero: sparc had loads of awesome stuff 2017-07-10T22:54:21Z Cthulhux: i'd replace my x86-64 by a sparc any time if they would just... like... go on with it 2017-07-10T22:54:37Z tetero: Cthulhux: I'll buy you a Sparc64 XII if you buy me a Power9 :) 2017-07-10T22:54:41Z trinitr0n: Watching Java bring a 170MHZ SparcBook 3TX to it's knees is almost entertaining 2017-07-10T22:54:56Z holycow: mind boggling what was available in the 70s, no wonder jobs and gates were inspired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKakermaQ68 2017-07-10T22:55:05Z Cthulhux: tetero, sparc64 is a tier1 platform for openbsd, power is not AFAIK 2017-07-10T22:55:10Z Cthulhux: so fine for me 2017-07-10T22:55:11Z Cthulhux: 8) 2017-07-10T22:55:18Z tetero: Cthulhux: Yeah? 2017-07-10T22:55:31Z trinitr0n: holycow: if you're fascinated by the Xerox stuff, find a STAR or Daybreak and I'll send you the interlisp environment and microcode needed to turn it into a LispM 2017-07-10T22:55:38Z trinitr0n: you can also run smalltalk 80 and MESA / XDE 2017-07-10T22:55:41Z tetero: Cthulhux: You may want to look at cost :) 2017-07-10T22:55:44Z trinitr0n: and xerox viewpoint 2017-07-10T22:55:52Z trinitr0n: and it's a lot more reliable than the pure lisp garbage 2017-07-10T22:56:00Z Cthulhux: tetero, cost is less relevant when there is a predictable future 2017-07-10T22:56:27Z trinitr0n: cuz it's fuckin documented 2017-07-10T22:56:28Z holycow: *ooo* aha! we'll chat! 2017-07-10T22:56:31Z tetero: Cthulhux: I love OpenBSD and don't get me wrong here, but (tongue in cheek) if it's a tier 1 platform for OpenBSD, it has no future ^^ 2017-07-10T22:56:35Z Cthulhux: a zombie platform like SPARC would be worth every cent without its unclear status 2017-07-10T22:56:50Z juanrgar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T22:57:11Z Cthulhux: i mean, sparc is still an open platform without license fees (unlike ARM), sooo... 2017-07-10T22:57:14Z Cthulhux considers 2017-07-10T22:57:30Z tetero: There's OpenPower 2017-07-10T22:57:41Z Cthulhux: go away with your power! 2017-07-10T22:57:57Z trinitr0n: holycow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV57WT5SVSg bout 8 months ago I got interlisp up on my Xerox D* 2017-07-10T22:58:05Z tetero: Cthulhux: :-) 2017-07-10T22:58:20Z trinitr0n: had to upgrade the microcode memory on the CPU board to 8K to load the lisp ucode 2017-07-10T22:58:28Z tetero: Cthulhux: OpenBSD was actually the first *nix operating system I fell in love with. Not due to security or anything like that, but rather it was logical 2017-07-10T22:59:06Z Cthulhux: openbsd has become quite conservative. they dropped vax support :( 2017-07-10T22:59:14Z Cthulhux: but then again, i own no vax. 2017-07-10T22:59:23Z holycow: wow 2017-07-10T22:59:42Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: I went to calgary to pick up my 11/750 right after they dropped vax 2017-07-10T22:59:42Z Cthulhux: afaik netbsd still runs on a vax ^^ 2017-07-10T22:59:48Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: theo and I went drinking about it 2017-07-10T23:00:04Z trinitr0n: https://www.instagram.com/p/BF_4XA2NS9M/ 2017-07-10T23:00:31Z trinitr0n: machine restored: https://www.instagram.com/p/BGDkLJaNS-Y/ 2017-07-10T23:00:34Z Cthulhux: ha. geriatric meeting. 2017-07-10T23:00:36Z Cthulhux scnr 2017-07-10T23:00:47Z holycow: that is badass. nice. 2017-07-10T23:00:52Z tetero: trinitr0n: Awesome! 2017-07-10T23:00:58Z trinitr0n: Cthulhux: w/e bruh I'm 27 2017-07-10T23:00:58Z tetero: trinitr0n: Did he flame you? 2017-07-10T23:01:02Z holycow: that is your vax? ha! 2017-07-10T23:01:08Z Cthulhux: vax, one of the last machines which looked nearly as awesome as they were 2017-07-10T23:01:12Z holycow: so that is what they looked like 2017-07-10T23:01:18Z Cthulhux: sadface.jpg 2017-07-10T23:02:32Z Cthulhux: if it dies one day, you can still grow weed in it 2017-07-10T23:02:36Z tetero: I've got a vox, at least. 2017-07-10T23:02:40Z Cthulhux: try that with one of those extra-slim new pcs 2017-07-10T23:03:59Z trinitr0n: ha. 2017-07-10T23:04:55Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T23:05:11Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:05:44Z Cthulhux: good night for now. 2017-07-10T23:05:49Z trinitr0n: l8r 2017-07-10T23:06:04Z holycow: nite 2017-07-10T23:06:11Z holycow: trinitr0n: you have an amazing collection 2017-07-10T23:06:21Z holycow: that is one nerdy instagram 2017-07-10T23:06:36Z nugnuts quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T23:06:45Z trinitr0n: I've had to hide a lot of it because people who are wholly unqualified to own a lot of machines start looking for them 2017-07-10T23:06:59Z holycow: heh 2017-07-10T23:07:02Z holycow: got it, a hint. 2017-07-10T23:07:09Z trinitr0n: there is a point at which relative to your experience in the niche of restoring old systems, a machine becomes irresponsible to own 2017-07-10T23:07:16Z trinitr0n: seriously. 2017-07-10T23:07:26Z trinitr0n: if you reach out to me I can help you walk that line 2017-07-10T23:07:55Z trinitr0n: but when a system has a MTBF of every 10th power-up or so, that's something you're gonna have to learn to fix yourself 2017-07-10T23:08:23Z holycow: you are now added to my project files 2017-07-10T23:08:28Z tetero: night Cthulhux 2017-07-10T23:08:51Z trinitr0n: something will go wrong, are you prepared to write microcode tapes, diagnostic tapes, etc? Comfortable with high voltage to fix some dumb issue on your irreplaceable CRT that just popped up? etc. 2017-07-10T23:09:00Z holycow: i did not realize they were that fragile. i expected something a bit more, but that makes sense for 40 year old machiens 2017-07-10T23:09:12Z tetero: trinitr0n: Really? lispm's are that fragile? 2017-07-10T23:09:14Z holycow: no, none of that. 2017-07-10T23:09:23Z tetero: trinitr0n: Why do they fail so often? 2017-07-10T23:09:26Z trinitr0n: tetero: something will always go wrong to keep you on your toes 2017-07-10T23:10:06Z trinitr0n: well consider that 1) Any software problem that pops up is now a hardware problem because when you hose your environment you recover it from tapes, etc. that are often specific to your setup 2017-07-10T23:10:16Z trinitr0n: and with one system hosed, where do you write tapes from? 2017-07-10T23:10:29Z holycow: the xerox workstations are much more reliable i guess? 2017-07-10T23:10:32Z trinitr0n: and the tapes themselves are awful so now you're machining rubber rollers to get that to work 2017-07-10T23:10:35Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:10:38Z holycow: nice --> https://www.instagram.com/p/BLo397AjyKy/ 2017-07-10T23:10:56Z trinitr0n: holycow: they're floppy based and MFM based so there are emulators for both the disk and bootstrap media available 2017-07-10T23:11:05Z trinitr0n: they're lower power in general, don't run as hot, etc 2017-07-10T23:11:10Z holycow: neat 2017-07-10T23:11:11Z trinitr0n: they do not contain any ECL logic 2017-07-10T23:11:18Z trinitr0n: at least the daybreaks 2017-07-10T23:11:27Z trinitr0n: they use fewer programmable parts like PALs 2017-07-10T23:11:31Z trinitr0n: and there are schematics 2017-07-10T23:11:38Z trinitr0n: these are a few reasons they are easier to deal with 2017-07-10T23:11:50Z tetero: trinitr0n: Very cool though, a lot of fun to browse your instagram 2017-07-10T23:11:52Z holycow: added to notes 2017-07-10T23:11:58Z trinitr0n: it's all rather cumulative in determining how tempermental something is 2017-07-10T23:12:19Z holycow: i still can't believe you have a vax 2017-07-10T23:12:30Z holycow: i mean, it's not a crazy idea any more but you are the first person i've met that has one 2017-07-10T23:12:39Z trinitr0n: actually I have two 11/750s 2017-07-10T23:12:43Z holycow: added your comments to notes. 2017-07-10T23:12:44Z trinitr0n: small vaxes are easy to come by 2017-07-10T23:12:49Z Xach: Power use discourages me from collecting old systems. Power use, heat, and noise. 2017-07-10T23:13:07Z trinitr0n: Xach: yeah and power use begets power handling 2017-07-10T23:13:08Z tetero: Xach: I never thought of power use until 7 or so years ago though 2017-07-10T23:13:19Z tetero: It seemed as though back then power was plentiful 2017-07-10T23:13:21Z trinitr0n: "oh I need to recap this power supply", sure that's $1000 worth of capacitors 2017-07-10T23:13:24Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:13:30Z trinitr0n: (in the case of the 11/750s) 2017-07-10T23:14:01Z Xach: I was just running an old Pentium and it jacked my bill by over $30/month. 2017-07-10T23:14:11Z trinitr0n: in general smaller less complex systems are, intuitively, exponentially more maintainable the smaller they are 2017-07-10T23:14:18Z holycow: Xach: heh yup! 2017-07-10T23:14:33Z fkac quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-10T23:14:34Z trinitr0n: they draw less power, run cooler, have less failure surface exposed where P(fault) grows exponentially 2017-07-10T23:14:52Z trinitr0n: if you'd like a small vax, holycow, to start with, that's a very reasonable system to own 2017-07-10T23:15:01Z trinitr0n: the MicroVAX family of system is very maintainable 2017-07-10T23:15:09Z trinitr0n: and obtainable! 2017-07-10T23:15:15Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:15:44Z dTal: I think we should replace all electric heating elements everywhere with processors 2017-07-10T23:15:47Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:16:10Z trinitr0n: dTal: effectively, I have done this. I heat my house in the winter with my gear. (not kidding) 2017-07-10T23:16:26Z trinitr0n: summer is camping and party season, winter is hacking season 2017-07-10T23:16:33Z tetero: trinitr0n: (forgive my ignorance) but is there no way to replace the PSU's, atleast, in those systems with more modern ones? 2017-07-10T23:17:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T23:17:15Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T23:17:24Z trinitr0n: sure, it gets expensive too. These are very beefy power supplies. Modern equivalents will only be found in industrial equipment typically so if you spec out a modular PSU with equivalent ratings, you're gonna be spending $1K+ 2017-07-10T23:17:33Z trinitr0n: also, it's less fun than running the original 2017-07-10T23:17:44Z dTal: Heating your house electrically is very expensive and inefficient! 2017-07-10T23:18:02Z trinitr0n: if you folks are interested in vintage computing we should not continue to hijack this channel. With apologies, let's move the conversation to #classiccmp of #bolix 2017-07-10T23:18:17Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T23:18:30Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:18:47Z tetero: trinitr0n: How much power do they draw? 2017-07-10T23:18:48Z trinitr0n: dTal: My old house had electric heat :) 2017-07-10T23:18:50Z dTal: if you're going to use electrical power for climate control you're better off running a heat pump 2017-07-10T23:19:02Z trinitr0n: electric baseboard. Yeah, not efficient. 2017-07-10T23:19:09Z tetero: trinitr0n: Yeah you're right. I'm sorry, I think I was the one who precipitated this topic 2017-07-10T23:19:09Z trinitr0n: tetero: depends on the system and peripherals 2017-07-10T23:19:16Z holycow: dTal: it is indeed. i am always blown away by how much cheaper natural gas is 2017-07-10T23:19:19Z tetero: I'll join #classiccmp 2017-07-10T23:19:30Z holycow: i had no idea those chans existed 2017-07-10T23:23:05Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-10T23:23:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T23:24:16Z WhiskyRyan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-10T23:28:07Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:31:43Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-10T23:32:27Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:33:31Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:36:08Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:36:14Z keviv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T23:36:46Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:37:31Z axion: Can LOOP destructuring work with OLL's or just basic conses? 2017-07-10T23:39:32Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T23:42:14Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:42:28Z knusbaum quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-10T23:42:29Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T23:43:10Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-10T23:43:32Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:45:29Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T23:45:57Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:54:57Z Xach: axion: what's OLL? 2017-07-10T23:55:58Z axion: Xach: Ordinary lambda list. I mean, can I somehow use LOOP's destructuring on X in order to work with ordinary lambda lists, instead of using this particular DESTRUCTURING-BIND form?: (loop for x in items collect (destructuring-bind (&key a b c &allow-other-keys) x (foo1 a) (foo2 b) (foo3 c))) 2017-07-10T23:56:47Z jfjhh joined #lisp 2017-07-10T23:57:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T23:59:46Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-11T00:00:56Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-11T00:05:32Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T00:19:13Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T00:19:49Z holycow quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-11T00:34:39Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-11T00:38:32Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-11T00:42:39Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T00:51:52Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-11T00:51:58Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-11T01:00:37Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:03:05Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T01:12:09Z KingMeow joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:13:05Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T01:13:22Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:15:44Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:17:01Z ineiros joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:21:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:25:22Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-11T01:28:45Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:32:51Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2017-07-11T01:36:06Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:36:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T01:37:09Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:38:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T01:47:15Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-11T01:47:39Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T01:48:57Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T01:50:54Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Spaceship routine maintenance) 2017-07-11T01:53:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:00:13Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T02:01:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:07:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:11:07Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:12:48Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:16:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:21:53Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T02:25:57Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T02:27:53Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:31:14Z ineiros joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:31:23Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:34:31Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T02:34:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:35:20Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:35:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:37:21Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:42:20Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:43:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:45:50Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:47:05Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:51:25Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:53:21Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:55:17Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-11T02:55:30Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb again) 2017-07-11T02:56:12Z KingMeow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T02:56:34Z jfjhh quit (Quit: reboot) 2017-07-11T02:58:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T02:58:49Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T03:00:32Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:00:40Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T03:04:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:05:00Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:08:12Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T03:15:30Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:18:15Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T03:18:57Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:24:28Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:25:57Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:28:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:28:40Z dTal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:29:39Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:29:40Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-11T03:29:58Z loke`: Yay 2017-07-11T03:31:36Z dTal joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:32:13Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:32:38Z axion: Guess not :) 2017-07-11T03:33:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:33:15Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:34:18Z beach: axion: Right, LOOP can only do simple destructuring according to a tree. 2017-07-11T03:34:55Z axion: Ok 2017-07-11T03:38:23Z defaultxr quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-11T03:38:44Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:39:13Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:39:18Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:41:53Z o`connor quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:43:40Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:47:36Z MetaHert` joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:48:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:49:18Z vtomole_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:50:30Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:53:00Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T03:53:14Z sohail_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-11T03:55:45Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:57:33Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-11T03:58:39Z vtomole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T04:04:45Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-11T04:07:39Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:08:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:11:04Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:12:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:15:47Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:16:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T04:21:57Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-11T04:24:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:25:50Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:26:33Z grublet2 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:26:53Z grublet2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T04:28:11Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:31:48Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T04:35:23Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:36:44Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T04:47:50Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T04:49:05Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T04:50:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-11T04:54:28Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:00:29Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:04:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:05:54Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T05:06:01Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-11T05:06:20Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:06:24Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:07:19Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:07:45Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:08:48Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:09:37Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:10:46Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:17:41Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T05:20:11Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:23:07Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:23:45Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:23:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:24:35Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:25:50Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:27:11Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:39:01Z ots joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:40:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-11T05:48:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T05:56:52Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T06:00:01Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T06:06:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T06:06:18Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T06:13:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T06:14:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T06:16:33Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T06:42:52Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T06:43:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-11T06:53:51Z krwq: how do you cast array of (unsigned-byte 32) to (unsigned-byte 8)? 2017-07-11T06:54:47Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-11T06:55:20Z jdz: krwq: what's supposed to happen to the numbers? There's no such thing as "casting" in CL, the closest one might be COERCE. 2017-07-11T06:55:28Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-11T06:56:04Z jdz: (map-into (make-array (length original-array) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 2017-07-11T06:56:07Z jdz: Oops. 2017-07-11T06:56:48Z jdz: Anyway, just use MAP-INTO to transform the elements. 2017-07-11T06:57:26Z krwq: jdz, will that create 4 bytes per int or mod 256? 2017-07-11T06:57:40Z jdz: You might (or might not) find (ldb (byte 8 0) ) helpful. 2017-07-11T06:58:13Z jdz: krwq: will what create bytes? 2017-07-11T06:58:22Z butterthebuddha quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T06:59:00Z jdz: I'll paraphrase: you don't "cast" things. You create a new array by applying a transformation function to the elements of an existing array. It's that easy! 2017-07-11T06:59:09Z butterthebuddha joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:00:23Z shiranuidong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-11T07:00:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:00:40Z krwq: jdz, (char*)array is easy, wouldn't map-into convert 32 integers to byte by dropping 24 bits? 2017-07-11T07:00:56Z |3b|: map-into wouldn't convert anything 2017-07-11T07:01:06Z jdz: krwq: you supply your own transformation function. 2017-07-11T07:01:09Z |3b|: at most it would error if the value doesn't fit 2017-07-11T07:01:24Z |3b|: the function being mapped could drop 24 bits 2017-07-11T07:01:45Z |3b|: if you want to expand to 4 bytes you would probably need a loop instead of map-into 2017-07-11T07:02:04Z krwq: is there a way to do that without allocating? 2017-07-11T07:02:16Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T07:02:17Z jdz: krwq: also, why are you talking about (char*) arrays? That's like an array of pointers? 2017-07-11T07:02:31Z |3b|: you need to allocate a vector of octets into which to write, but no other allocation needed 2017-07-11T07:02:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:03:10Z jdz: krwq: at this point I assume you're confused. What makes you think you have an array of (unsigned-byte 32)? 2017-07-11T07:03:31Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:03:48Z |3b|: and if you are doing it for FFI, the FFI probably has some way to write words to memory. if you are doing it for network or files or whatever with lisp APIs, you probably want LDB (or some library that wraps it into a nicer form) 2017-07-11T07:03:49Z defaultxr quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-11T07:04:11Z |3b|: doesn't sound confused to me, at most poorly specified 2017-07-11T07:04:19Z krwq: jdz, picture a fragment of memory which you interpret as series of unsigned integers of size of 32 bits and then the same fragment of memory as series of unsigned bytes - that is what I mean 2017-07-11T07:04:48Z |3b|: yeah, you have to do that manually in portable CL :( 2017-07-11T07:04:49Z jdz: krwq: that means the other array is going to be 4 times the length, right? 2017-07-11T07:04:59Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:05:02Z |3b|: 4 times the number of elements, same number of octets of ram 2017-07-11T07:06:00Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T07:06:47Z jdz: Are we talking about foreign arrays or CL arrays? 2017-07-11T07:06:53Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T07:06:59Z krwq: ok, thanks |3b| and jdz, will allocate for now but probably will need to figure out how to use streams to not allocate 2017-07-11T07:07:31Z jdz: And don't forget to ensure you use proper endianness. 2017-07-11T07:07:44Z |3b|: if you can't allocate, using FFI might be best option (particularly if sending to some non-copying foreign API) 2017-07-11T07:07:52Z jdz: Which means you cannot use "casting" anyway. 2017-07-11T07:08:06Z |3b|: you can't /always/ use it... but frequently you can 2017-07-11T07:08:30Z jdz: Yes, by special-casing code paths depending on platform? 2017-07-11T07:08:32Z |3b|: (portable code should obviously check for that before trying it, so needs to be able to do it the hard way anyway) 2017-07-11T07:08:49Z |3b|: or assuming platform, or by defining to always use native byte order 2017-07-11T07:08:54Z jdz: Yes, my point is that the non-native case should still be handled. 2017-07-11T07:09:21Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:09:44Z |3b|: or error and let whatever user has the wrong endianness platform send a patch for it :) 2017-07-11T07:10:05Z jdz: Haha, right. 2017-07-11T07:10:27Z |3b| would say "use a lib that deals with it all" though, but you'd probably still need 2 arrays 2017-07-11T07:11:39Z krwq: i need big endian always in this case :P i dont think i ever owned a pc with little endian - perhaps some game console or something 2017-07-11T07:11:41Z |3b|: krwq: if you are writing only (unsigned-byte 32) to a file, and don't care about endianness, you might be able to get away with opening the file with :element-type (unsigned-byte 32) 2017-07-11T07:11:54Z |3b| thought intel was LE? 2017-07-11T07:12:19Z krwq: brb 2017-07-11T07:12:26Z jdz: |3b|: you thought right. 2017-07-11T07:13:08Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T07:13:12Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:13:15Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T07:13:29Z |3b|: console probably more likely to be BE than PC 2017-07-11T07:14:05Z jdz: Well, I'm pretty sure PS3 had a Power CPU. 2017-07-11T07:14:09Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:14:13Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:14:16Z |3b|: yeah, power and mips are what i was thinking of 2017-07-11T07:14:31Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T07:14:37Z |3b|: both apparently switchable though, so could be either 2017-07-11T07:14:44Z krwq: ok, i think you might be right, so i did always have le then :P i need BE here 2017-07-11T07:15:05Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:15:24Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T07:15:48Z jdz: Good thing CL is such a nice language and has LDB/DPB. 2017-07-11T07:16:08Z jdz: So shuffling bits around is no big deal. 2017-07-11T07:16:11Z |3b|: well, sort of good, would be nice to have some bulk operations 2017-07-11T07:16:46Z krwq: by any chance does anyone have mega.nz upload script in CL? i'm in progress porting javascript/python code (got two versions) and that's why I'm asking questions now 2017-07-11T07:17:00Z |3b|: and better support for heterogeneous blobs of memory in general 2017-07-11T07:18:26Z jdz: Pretty sure people around the world are starting to realise what a disaster C and C++ are. 2017-07-11T07:18:59Z krwq: well honestly I find low level stuff much more intuitive in C 2017-07-11T07:19:05Z jdz: Thing might change before I die even. 2017-07-11T07:19:32Z krwq: although still learning lisp for those things so possibly that's why 2017-07-11T07:19:58Z jdz: Low level things might be intuitive in C because they might have been written in and for C. 2017-07-11T07:20:46Z lieven: people hugely overestimate what the C standard guarantees about low level stuff 2017-07-11T07:20:48Z krwq: jdz, yeh, try to write something which is gc sensitive 2017-07-11T07:20:58Z lieven: they're just lucky it works on popular platforms 2017-07-11T07:21:00Z |3b|: yeah, simple cases of binary file/network data formats are easier in C (though CL is nicer for harder cases, LDB is great when you need parts of a word from arbitrary bit offsets) 2017-07-11T07:21:29Z jdz: https://blog.regehr.org/archives/1520 2017-07-11T07:21:46Z lieven: CL or Ada with representation clauses are a far superior solution that unfortunately won't become popular any time soon 2017-07-11T07:21:48Z |3b| would argue GC problems are an implementation detail, but agrees that in practice we don't have good solutions :( 2017-07-11T07:21:54Z jdz: That's enough for #lisp today methinks. 2017-07-11T07:22:22Z krwq: one garbage collection in a wrong moment and you got lag when communicating with hardware and whole things get screwed up :[ 2017-07-11T07:23:19Z krwq: sb-sys:without-gcing is kinda ok if you don't do it frequently and manuallly call collect when it is ok 2017-07-11T07:23:26Z krwq: but that's slightly annoying 2017-07-11T07:23:39Z |3b|: yeah 2017-07-11T07:23:41Z lieven: krwq: have you actually experienced this alleged GC problem? 2017-07-11T07:23:58Z krwq: lieven: was playing with lisp on raspberry pi few days ago 2017-07-11T07:23:59Z krwq: yes 2017-07-11T07:24:08Z jdz: Problem solved with real-time incremental GCs which none of the current implementations offer. 2017-07-11T07:24:09Z lieven: yeah well, get a real computer 2017-07-11T07:24:26Z |3b|: lieven: real computers aren't any better when you are running at their limits :p 2017-07-11T07:25:04Z krwq: lieven: when you need really precise timing anything which runs OS or does anything unexpected in the background is a problem 2017-07-11T07:25:08Z lieven: |3b|: no but a lot (most?) of actual problems of interest are nowhere near the limits of today's reasonable hardware 2017-07-11T07:25:32Z lieven: krwq: yes there is a need for true real time OSes. But in that case windows and linux are out of the picture too. 2017-07-11T07:25:36Z |3b|: lieven: high-detail VR rendering pushes even a lot of unreasonable hardware 2017-07-11T07:26:02Z Zhivago: Real-time isn't about fast -- it's about well defined latency. 2017-07-11T07:26:05Z |3b|: and yeah, windows and linux can be a problem too, but adding GC on top of that doesn't help :) 2017-07-11T07:26:10Z |3b|: right 2017-07-11T07:26:14Z jdz: Zhivago: nobody's questioning that? 2017-07-11T07:26:30Z lieven: |3b|: I was not stating no such problems exist. I was stating a lot of problems aren't in that camp. 2017-07-11T07:26:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:26:53Z Zhivago: Well, they probably should be, since real-time is really hard to do for that reason. 2017-07-11T07:27:15Z Zhivago: Most people settle for 'generally excessively fast'. 2017-07-11T07:27:42Z |3b| is hoping to end up in that category 2017-07-11T07:27:55Z JuanDaugherty: cheney don't help? 2017-07-11T07:27:57Z |3b|: try to avoid allocation so it doesn't GC much 2017-07-11T07:28:03Z Zhivago: Well, that's the cheaper problem to solve :) Buy a bigger hammer, and cross your fingers. 2017-07-11T07:28:30Z krwq: |3b| i had a problem when the code was allocating only on pi and on desktop it didn't - probably some old compiler version 2017-07-11T07:29:53Z |3b|: was the desktop 64bit and pi 32? 2017-07-11T07:29:53Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:30:16Z |3b|: might have been hitting different fixnum limits 2017-07-11T07:30:39Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T07:30:57Z krwq: desktop is 64bit, pi is ARM - not sure about bitness 2017-07-11T07:31:44Z krwq: i do not know much how to optimize code yet in lisp so probably i could do better :) 2017-07-11T07:31:58Z |3b|: looks like pi3 is 64, older are 32 2017-07-11T07:32:16Z krwq: so 32 then - i think mine is pi2 2017-07-11T07:33:25Z krwq: i think ill listen to someone's recommendation and do arduino for the real time stuff and pi for everything else 2017-07-11T07:33:27Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:34:27Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T07:34:34Z krwq: although would be nice if i could write arduino's code in lisp although would have to get rid of gc and probably write some tiny compiler which probably would be overkill side project 2017-07-11T07:34:39Z axion: pi3 does have a 64bit processor, but most distributions still run 32 because of major bugs 2017-07-11T07:36:06Z krwq: i wonder if it would be feasible to not have gc at all and just ensure clean up with macros and unwind-protect 2017-07-11T07:40:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:41:30Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T07:41:49Z p_l: krwq: you might be interested in a) compile time elision of GC b) 1bit refcounts 2017-07-11T07:42:26Z p_l: krwq: also ancient old lisps that sometimes had to fit in smaller space than cheap present-day MCU ;) 2017-07-11T07:43:30Z krwq: p_l: i think i'll pursue that subject one day although got too many projects right now for the new one 2017-07-11T07:43:41Z lieven: or linear lisps. Henry Baker has some papers on that. 2017-07-11T07:44:05Z p_l: krwq: on a completely other angle, generating code from Lisp is a time-honored trick 2017-07-11T07:44:29Z krwq: p_l: what do you mean? 2017-07-11T07:44:46Z p_l: krwq: writing a language in lisp to program the device 2017-07-11T07:45:05Z p_l: meaning you get to enjoy macros etc. and full power of language to create something that compiles down to target 2017-07-11T07:45:11Z p_l: IIRC, that's still used by Roomba? 2017-07-11T07:45:19Z p_l: (also, old JPL rovers) 2017-07-11T07:45:53Z krwq: i think ill test it with arduino at one point 2017-07-11T07:46:05Z jdz: Let's not forget whatever the name of Naughty Dog (GOAL?) 2017-07-11T07:46:11Z jdz: thing was. 2017-07-11T07:46:26Z krwq: GOAL sounds like macros on top of assembly 2017-07-11T07:46:28Z jdz: GOOL http://wiki.c2.com/?LispInJakAndDaxter 2017-07-11T07:46:38Z p_l: jdz: GOOL (early PS1) and GOAL (PS2) were full lisp languages 2017-07-11T07:47:19Z jdz: Well, I've only heard about them, not seen any. 2017-07-11T07:47:24Z p_l: GOAL had very easy access to individual instructions, because that was crucial to driving Emotion Engine at full speed 2017-07-11T07:48:00Z p_l: (you have essentially one instruction stream driving 3? separate, different CPUs, keeping the pipelines filled apropriately was important) 2017-07-11T07:48:24Z krwq: i wonder if there are any people here who have worked for naughty dog - lisp community is not that big these days 2017-07-11T07:49:42Z p_l: and a lot of people here are near-forever idle ;_; 2017-07-11T07:50:05Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:50:29Z krwq: p_l: usually, whenever i start talking here i can't get anything done so I kind of understand :) 2017-07-11T07:51:07Z krwq: mostly because of distraction, no other reasons 2017-07-11T07:52:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:53:29Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:55:39Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T07:57:58Z vtomole: p_l Yeah, the complete opposite of #haskell 2017-07-11T07:59:36Z vtomole: Not a fair comparison though cause the haskell community is larger 2017-07-11T07:59:59Z lieven: there is an overlap. I mostly idle on #haskell too :) 2017-07-11T08:00:06Z krwq: i like the traffic here, not too much, not too little 2017-07-11T08:00:30Z krwq: usually bursty conversations 2017-07-11T08:00:58Z vtomole: Is #scheme even alive? 2017-07-11T08:01:30Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:03:36Z arquebus quit (Quit: Konversation disconnected) 2017-07-11T08:03:57Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:05:32Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T08:06:17Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:09:12Z vtomole: What are the advantages of using object store vs relation databases? 2017-07-11T08:11:05Z JuanDaugherty: don't have to learn sql? 2017-07-11T08:12:10Z JuanDaugherty: sort of a standard social trope of pushback on a major advance 2017-07-11T08:12:26Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. insofar as 'nosql' is concerned) 2017-07-11T08:14:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:15:09Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T08:18:11Z p_l: vtomole: the question is what kind of data you want to store and how do you want to use it. Then you can move to "should I use object store or relational?" 2017-07-11T08:19:14Z p_l: if your data follows relational model well enough, and when the various guarantees offered by RDBMSes fit your use case, best use RDBMS 2017-07-11T08:19:47Z p_l: tbh, for various reasons (availability of high-end RDBMSes on the cheap) they tend to be winning option more often than not 2017-07-11T08:20:35Z p_l: (and postgres is technically OORDBMS too) 2017-07-11T08:21:25Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:22:57Z krwq: ok, I will be going sleep - nice to talk to you and thanks for help again! 2017-07-11T08:23:27Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T08:25:16Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:27:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T08:29:23Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:29:46Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T08:30:26Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T08:36:06Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:39:31Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T08:42:09Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:44:05Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-11T08:46:27Z guaqua_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T08:46:35Z guaqua joined #lisp 2017-07-11T08:48:13Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T08:52:01Z beach: In the context of Cleavir (a compiler framework that can be customized to fit the needs of the implementation), I am trying to figure out how to deal with compilation errors/warnings. 2017-07-11T08:52:06Z beach: What if I signal a specific error condition that also contains source location of the problem, and provide a restart to continue the compilation as well as possible? It seems to me that client code can then (say) convert the error to a warning, and invoke the restart. 2017-07-11T08:52:09Z beach: Or a strange client such as Second Climacs could mark the problematic code in the buffer and convert the message of the error condition to a tooltip (or something similar). Opinions? Have I overlooked anything? 2017-07-11T08:59:05Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T08:59:26Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T09:03:35Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:03:47Z dim: beach: can you list some compiler errors that are recoverable? 2017-07-11T09:04:41Z beach: Sure. You encounter an undefined variable in a position to be evaluated. Replace it with (say) NIL. 2017-07-11T09:04:59Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T09:05:10Z beach: You encounter an undefined variable in a SETQ. Replace the entire SETQ form with (say) NIL. 2017-07-11T09:05:51Z beach: You encounter an undefined function. Replace a call to it by a call to (say) LIST. 2017-07-11T09:06:23Z beach: You encounter a malformed LET binding. Remove that binding. 2017-07-11T09:06:29Z scymtym: maybe replacing the form with (error 'compile-time-error "undefined variable FOO") would be easier and safer? 2017-07-11T09:06:48Z beach: Definitely. 2017-07-11T09:07:08Z beach: It depends on the situation. In Second Climacs it won't matter because the code is not going to be executed anyway. 2017-07-11T09:07:15Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T09:07:48Z scymtym: how the remainder of the compilation is affected by the modified control flow may also be a consideration 2017-07-11T09:08:08Z beach: That is definitely more important for Second Climacs. 2017-07-11T09:10:28Z dim: by replace you mean edit the code? 2017-07-11T09:10:42Z beach: dim: The compiler compiles something else instead. 2017-07-11T09:11:08Z dim: I mean it sounds very interactive and not what I would expect from a compiler, which is more of a batch job to me 2017-07-11T09:11:34Z dim: maybe I'm not there yet in terms of writing software by debugging an empty program, as I've read about 2017-07-11T09:11:41Z beach: dim: The restarts would typically be invoked programmatically, not interactively. 2017-07-11T09:11:51Z dim: I think I don't get the angle you're looking the situation at 2017-07-11T09:12:14Z beach: Have you read what Pitman wrote about the condition system? 2017-07-11T09:12:23Z dim: so you're saying compile-time error doesn't mean the code is wrong? 2017-07-11T09:12:34Z dim: I don't think I did, no 2017-07-11T09:12:44Z beach: No, that's not what I am saying. What made you think I did? 2017-07-11T09:13:28Z dim: seems like you're adding features so that when your compiler is stuck with an error in the code you can then unblock it by sending new information, basically editing the code in ways I don't really get 2017-07-11T09:13:38Z scymtym: dim: sbcl actually does that. (compile nil (lambda () a)) is compiled as if it had been something like (compile nil (lambda () (error 'unbound-variable :name a))) instead. the point is that the compiler can continue and give you feedback for the remainder of the code 2017-07-11T09:13:59Z dim: I don't like that :/ 2017-07-11T09:14:18Z scymtym missed quotes 2017-07-11T09:14:25Z dim: so maybe I just didn't get used to it and refrain from understanding what's behind, I just expect the compiler to be a safe guard for me 2017-07-11T09:14:37Z beach: Essentially, signaling an error means "I am some low-level code and I have encountered as situation where I can't continue without help". Providing restarts means "Here are some alternative ways I can get out of this conundrum. Please help me!" High level code presumably knows in which way it would like for the low-level code to continue, so invokes the right restart for the situation. 2017-07-11T09:14:43Z dim: problem is if you're not paying attention you can try to run the code and only catch the problem at run-time 2017-07-11T09:15:12Z dim: beach: hence my question about recoverable errors in the context of a compiler 2017-07-11T09:15:24Z dim: I though that either the code compiles or needs to be edited 2017-07-11T09:15:30Z scymtym: COMPILE will still indicate that the code is wrong via signaled conditions and return values 2017-07-11T09:15:34Z dim: and the example you gave tend to confirm my impression 2017-07-11T09:15:45Z beach: dim: That will be possible with what I suggest. Just don't invoke any restart. 2017-07-11T09:16:16Z loke`: dim: I can think of situations where compiled code and restarts make sense 2017-07-11T09:16:23Z dim: anyway, I guess I've shown your question is over my head and I won't be helpful to you ;-) 2017-07-11T09:16:31Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:17:00Z beach: Oh, well. 2017-07-11T09:17:20Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:17:47Z dim: also I think I've just setup myself up (in another context) to teach myself Go and write some code in it ;/ 2017-07-11T09:19:09Z beach: dim: Being able to execute code that has compilation errors in it is essential. The programmer might want to test a part of the code that does not have any errors in it, without having to deal with eliminating all problems in other parts. That's in fact a selling point with dynamic languages like Common Lisp. 2017-07-11T09:20:13Z dim: mmm, ok 2017-07-11T09:20:32Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:20:36Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T09:21:18Z beach: dim: But with my suggestion, I am giving the programmer a choice, or rather, the Common Lisp implementation using Cleavir could provide such an option to the programmer. If no restart is used, then it will be an error and compilation will stop. 2017-07-11T09:22:35Z beach: dim: Now, with the incremental first-step compilation of top-level forms in the Second Climacs editor, I certainly do NOT want to interrupt compilation when there is an error. I want to highlight the code that is problematic and let the programmer know what the problem is in the form of a tooltip or similar. 2017-07-11T09:23:19Z ots: Hey. Anyone have any feedback or a review of the book https://www.darkchestnut.com/book-common-lisp-application-deployment/ ? I liked https://github.com/pvlpenev/fullstacklisp but it is very incomplete and I'm somewhat left hanging trying to learn good practices in web development... TY. 2017-07-11T09:23:37Z loke`: ots: Never saw it 2017-07-11T09:23:47Z loke`: I have, however, deployed full stack Lisp web applications. 2017-07-11T09:23:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:25:46Z dim: beach: I guess I'm still not used to condition system and impacts of if for in-process compilation, but yes it sounds powerful and good an approach 2017-07-11T09:25:51Z dim: (color me convinced) 2017-07-11T09:25:57Z ots: loke: did you know it already, and if not, how did you learn? 2017-07-11T09:27:19Z ots: loke: and would you happen to know a specific resource for looking at a complete solution? The web is great for finding a gazillion of small pieces, but a coherent/complete example seems harder. 2017-07-11T09:27:24Z loke`: ots: By doing 2017-07-11T09:28:26Z loke`: My project is open source: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato with a Docker deployment here: https://github.com/lokedhs/potato-docker-compose and a video presentation about how to develop here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl8jQ2wRh6k 2017-07-11T09:29:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:30:58Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:32:58Z ots: loke: tyvm. I'll dig into that. And app looks good:) 2017-07-11T09:35:43Z Colleen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T09:36:15Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:36:19Z gurmble is now known as grumble 2017-07-11T09:37:40Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T09:39:05Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T09:39:09Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T09:40:16Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:41:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:44:27Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T09:46:13Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:46:16Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-11T09:54:39Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:57:03Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T09:57:22Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T09:57:23Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-11T10:07:44Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-11T10:18:29Z FakePedro1 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T10:19:13Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T10:20:05Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T10:20:05Z FakePedro1 is now known as FakePedro 2017-07-11T10:27:17Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-11T10:29:57Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-11T10:34:07Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-11T10:37:13Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-11T10:44:42Z malice` joined #lisp 2017-07-11T10:46:55Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T10:48:28Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T10:55:45Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T10:56:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-07-11T10:59:17Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-11T11:01:20Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:01:32Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:01:58Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:04:00Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T11:10:47Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T11:14:10Z daemoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T11:14:49Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:17:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T11:17:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:18:23Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:21:34Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:23:17Z ots quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-11T11:27:27Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:27:47Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:28:57Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:29:45Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T11:32:29Z MrBusiness quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T11:33:26Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:34:02Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T11:38:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:50:03Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T11:54:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:00:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:01:05Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-11T12:01:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:03:24Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:05:14Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:06:32Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:07:31Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:10:57Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:11:36Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:11:39Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T12:16:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-11T12:20:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:22:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:23:06Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:26:50Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2017-07-11T12:31:06Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:33:07Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:43:38Z forgot quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:44:39Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:45:25Z forgot joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:46:24Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:46:48Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:50:39Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-11T12:50:47Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T12:57:20Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:01:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:04:15Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T13:14:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:18:59Z grublet quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T13:21:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:26:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T13:26:30Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T13:26:56Z gbrown_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:28:31Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:29:47Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:30:11Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:30:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:31:06Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:31:22Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:35:06Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:38:36Z gbrown_ quit 2017-07-11T13:40:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:40:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T13:41:48Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-11T13:48:07Z beach: [compiler messages again] Here is what I can do: I already have a CLIENT object that is passed to the top-level compilation function for the purpose of a host of client-specific processing. I can provide mixin classes for clients that control what the compiler does with messages. 2017-07-11T13:48:14Z beach: One such mixing would just let the errors abort the compilation. A second one would transform errors to warnings and have the compiler try to recover as much as possible. A third one would be for Second Climacs and it would compile something simple instead, and turn error messages into tooltips on the buffer location concerned by the message. 2017-07-11T13:48:16Z beach: The mechanism for doing that would be an :AROUND method on the main compilation entry, specialized to the mixin. For example, the second one would handle the root condition type and invoke the right restart in all cases. 2017-07-11T13:54:20Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T13:55:25Z Bike: oh, i missed stuff, huh. 2017-07-11T13:57:31Z beach: Not much. 2017-07-11T13:58:29Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand this client? i'd expect a higher level to just establish handlers like usual 2017-07-11T13:59:25Z beach: Yes, and the client can still do that. I am just providing reasonable defaults with these mixin classes. 2017-07-11T13:59:43Z beach: The new thing here is the standardized restart. 2017-07-11T14:00:08Z beach: ... so that the client can tell the low-level code how to proceed. 2017-07-11T14:00:14Z zchlyg joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:01:28Z Bike: standardized restart? like... you have a function (or around method) that calls the normal compiler with e.g. a handler that turns unbound-variable into warn and consider-special, for a normal compiler? 2017-07-11T14:02:29Z beach: No, "standardized restart" as in compile-an-error-message-instead and compile-anything-you-like-instead. 2017-07-11T14:02:43Z beach: So that the same restart can be invoked for all errors. 2017-07-11T14:03:27Z Bike: oh. 2017-07-11T14:04:06Z Bike: i'm not actually sure how that would work with consider special? i guess you could turn a into (locally (declare (special a)) a) but that seems kind of complicated 2017-07-11T14:04:26Z Bike: and that wouldn't work with unbound functions, i don't think 2017-07-11T14:04:50Z Bike: i guess you could provide (funcall (fdefinition name) ...) but ech 2017-07-11T14:05:29Z beach: I don't see the problem. 2017-07-11T14:05:44Z Bike: with the latter? 2017-07-11T14:05:57Z beach: Presumably, most clients, such as Clasp, would call the function indirectly through the symbol and the symbol already exists. 2017-07-11T14:06:08Z beach: So there would be no difference in the compiled code. 2017-07-11T14:06:29Z beach: [I am talking function names in the form of symbols] 2017-07-11T14:06:52Z Bike: but it has to duplicate what whatever-to-ast does elsewhere. 2017-07-11T14:07:21Z beach: I am lost. As usual. 2017-07-11T14:08:28Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:09:34Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:09:37Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T14:11:41Z Bike: mm. thinking about it. i don't think it would duplicate anything major. it would be a little slower than it is now but that doesn't matter. so nevermind. 2017-07-11T14:11:53Z beach: OK. 2017-07-11T14:12:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:12:36Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:15:06Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:17:00Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-11T14:17:21Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-11T14:17:31Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:17:42Z Bike: the restart would be separate from the errors, too. that's kind of interesting. like (restart-case (call-next-method) ...) in an around method on convert, i guess 2017-07-11T14:18:11Z beach: I don't think so. 2017-07-11T14:18:31Z beach: The restart-case would be in the low-level function, and the around method would have invoke-restart. No? 2017-07-11T14:19:14Z beach: The :AROUND method would have a handler for the root condition. 2017-07-11T14:19:25Z beach: No? 2017-07-11T14:19:26Z Bike: i mean, the "standard restart" is to replace the form being converted, right? 2017-07-11T14:20:12Z beach: I think I need to come up with an example. Otherwise, I'll confuse myself as well. 2017-07-11T14:21:51Z jamtho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T14:21:58Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:22:25Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:28:09Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:33:09Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T14:33:22Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:34:07Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:34:16Z beach: I won't do that today. Too tired after a long day of work. 2017-07-11T14:35:34Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:36:13Z Bike: alright. 2017-07-11T14:37:35Z beach: Maybe I can make it. 2017-07-11T14:39:35Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:40:47Z beach: I have a small example. Let me paste it. 2017-07-11T14:42:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:44:08Z beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+7IIN 2017-07-11T14:44:30Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:44:54Z beach: The first condition is the root condition that will be handled by the :AROUND method. 2017-07-11T14:45:04Z beach: The second condition is the specific one for this situation. 2017-07-11T14:45:17Z beach: The standardized restart is called RECOVER. 2017-07-11T14:45:47Z beach: PROCESS1 symbolizes a client that wants to interrupt compilation as soon as there is a problem. 2017-07-11T14:46:05Z beach: PROCESS2 symbolizes a client that wants the compiler to recover. 2017-07-11T14:46:05Z Bike: so the standard restart does different things in different places? 2017-07-11T14:46:10Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-11T14:46:18Z beach: It is just the name that is standardized. 2017-07-11T14:47:21Z Bike: oh. i thought the standard restart was "compile some provided form instead of the form that caused the compiler to signal any error" 2017-07-11T14:47:32Z beach: I might find a way for client code to handle specific conditions specially, thus making it possible to provide individual restarts for different situations, such as SUBSTITUTE-A-DIFFERENT-NAME. 2017-07-11T14:47:50Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:48:17Z beach: Such a restart would have to be invoked differently by client code in each different situations, I would think. 2017-07-11T14:48:43Z beach: That would make it almost impossible for client code to customize the compiler with a reasonable investment. 2017-07-11T14:48:51Z Bike: what? 2017-07-11T14:50:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:50:32Z beach: If every time the compiler sees a problem (there might be dozens of such situations) a different kind of form has to be supplied (a different variable name in a SETQ, an alternative binding in LET, a different function name in a call), then client code would have to handle each individual condition type and do something different with the restart in each situation. 2017-07-11T14:51:30Z Bike: well, yeah. and cleavir provides handler functions so it's fairly easy. 2017-07-11T14:52:17Z beach: That's the point. Client code can choose a reasonable default and get work done more easily. 2017-07-11T14:52:46Z beach: Like I said, maybe I can find a way for clients who so wish to have finer control over the process. 2017-07-11T14:53:38Z ruste1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T14:53:58Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:54:01Z beach: I mean, there is always a way of course, but it has to be reasonable, as in just having to address the exceptional behavior it wishes to provide, as opposed to "all or nothing" as in "either use the default or provide a handler for the following 67 conditions". 2017-07-11T14:54:17Z flip214_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T14:54:59Z flip214 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:54:59Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2017-07-11T14:54:59Z flip214 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:58:50Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:59:33Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T14:59:56Z zm joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:01:29Z Bike: ok well what i was thinking was that if the restart is "provide another form", a client could do like (handler-bind (...specially handled conditions... (compilation-program-error #'runtime-compile-error)) ...), and then cleavir has (defun runtime-compile-error (e) (invoke-restart 'new-form `(error 'runtime-compile-error :error ,e))) or so. 2017-07-11T15:02:40Z beach needs to parse that. 2017-07-11T15:03:47Z beach failed to parse. 2017-07-11T15:03:56Z beach: Maybe you can describe the behavior in words. 2017-07-11T15:04:35Z Bike: Okay, so you have this blunt instrument restart that takes one argument and just replaces the form being compiled with a new one, right. 2017-07-11T15:04:52Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-11T15:05:13Z Bike: And the client says, if the compiler runs into pretty much any error at all while compiling some form, replace that form with something that will signal an error at runtime, that refers to the error signaled at compile time. 2017-07-11T15:05:34Z beach: I see. 2017-07-11T15:05:47Z beach: The problem is that not all substitutions are forms. 2017-07-11T15:05:53Z Bike: (and if it wants to handle stuff specially, which it probably does, it can just put those handlers first) 2017-07-11T15:05:57Z beach: For example, if there is a malformed LET binding. 2017-07-11T15:06:23Z Bike: right, so in that case it can still just do this (replacing the entire LET form), or it could use a different restart to replace the binding or whatever. 2017-07-11T15:07:20Z beach: That might be possible. 2017-07-11T15:08:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T15:09:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:09:24Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:09:45Z Bike: i guess it works better for compilers than for editors, which would probably want to continue going through the let form, and such 2017-07-11T15:10:00Z beach: Definitely. 2017-07-11T15:10:56Z beach: But the two different requirements might be possible to combine. 2017-07-11T15:11:03Z Bike: i suppose "just use nil" doesn't really strike me as a reasonable default for most applications. but of course it could just be like you had but with a more specific restart name, and the editor can ok yeah you get it. 2017-07-11T15:11:58Z Bike: having lots of restart options is good, of course. 2017-07-11T15:12:03Z beach: I think the main thing then is to create different restarts, at least one of which is RECOVER. 2017-07-11T15:12:31Z beach: ... and to create a hierarchy of conditions that can be handled the same way, i.e. by invoking the same restart. 2017-07-11T15:12:59Z Bike: makes sense. could have mixins. 2017-07-11T15:13:09Z beach: Absolutely. 2017-07-11T15:14:26Z beach: With a reasonable condition "graph", client code could handle only certain categories, rather than each leaf separately. 2017-07-11T15:16:43Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:18:57Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:19:44Z hound1358 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:19:52Z hound1358: hello 2017-07-11T15:20:23Z beach: Hello hound1358. 2017-07-11T15:21:01Z hound1358: i'm new here.. i hope to learn a lot =D 2017-07-11T15:21:10Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:21:12Z beach: Great! Welcome. 2017-07-11T15:23:08Z hound1358: some books to learn lisp oriented to AI? 2017-07-11T15:23:18Z dlowe: minion: tell hound1358 about PAIP 2017-07-11T15:23:19Z minion: hound1358: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 2017-07-11T15:23:30Z dlowe: that was... not helpful minion 2017-07-11T15:23:46Z beach: minion: bad bot! 2017-07-11T15:23:47Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 2017-07-11T15:23:48Z Bike: well it's not like it's online 2017-07-11T15:24:27Z dlowe: I guess so. Anyway, that has lisp with an AI bent, though it's the "symbolic manipulation" AI model, not the "massive storm of linear algebra" AI 2017-07-11T15:24:38Z hound1358: and some books about PAIPs? 2017-07-11T15:24:51Z dlowe: PAIP is a book. 2017-07-11T15:24:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:24:52Z Xach: hound1358: PAIP is the name of the book 2017-07-11T15:25:36Z hound1358: oh ok 2017-07-11T15:27:17Z zchlyg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T15:27:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:27:20Z beach: hound1358: Most people who hang out here use Common Lisp for applications that are not related to artificial intelligence. 2017-07-11T15:27:36Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:27:42Z hound1358: really? interesting 2017-07-11T15:27:48Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:27:55Z beach: hound1358: And that book, by Peter Norvig, although using examples from "traditional AI, is really a book about program design using Common Lisp. 2017-07-11T15:28:21Z hound1358: i'm learning lisp because i'm interested a lot about AI 2017-07-11T15:29:14Z Xach: hound1358: it is possibly not a good place to start these days. 2017-07-11T15:29:15Z Bike: AI research doesn't depend on programming language. 2017-07-11T15:29:19Z hound1358: specifically neural netwoks 2017-07-11T15:29:33Z hound1358: Xach: why not 2017-07-11T15:29:57Z Xach: hound1358: because the people doing AI stuff in 2017 are not using Lisp very much 2017-07-11T15:30:12Z Xach: hound1358: so it might help to find someone doing what interests you and look at what they use. 2017-07-11T15:30:20Z beach: hound1358: Maybe I am wrong, but Lisp was good for AI back in the days when it was thought that AI could be accomplished with so-called symbolic programming. I have the impression that the techniques used today are more about massive data sets. 2017-07-11T15:30:21Z hound1358: Bike: Well.. i read that lisp, altough is a general purpose language, it was especifically designed for AI 2017-07-11T15:30:22Z Xach: hound1358: that said, lisp is very nice and worth learning just to use. 2017-07-11T15:30:36Z Bike: lisp has a reputation for AI because it was used for it a few decades ago, because AI at that time was based in symbolic manipulation and lisp can do that without libraries or anything. 2017-07-11T15:31:06Z Bike: when lisp was developed, a sufficiently fancy calculuator was considered "AI" 2017-07-11T15:31:42Z Bike: it has no special facilities for neural networks. lisp is, indeed, good, but it's not a silver bullet of any kind 2017-07-11T15:32:11Z Xach: Just yesterday someone ripped off my lisp-powered sign maker to make and sell physical signs :~( 2017-07-11T15:32:22Z Bike: lol. 2017-07-11T15:33:30Z hound1358: the interesting feature in lisp for me.. is that it can be self-compiled 2017-07-11T15:33:46Z beach: What does that even mean? 2017-07-11T15:34:00Z Xach: I would love for you to keep your enthusiasm while losing your misconceptions. Please don't think of corrections as discouragements. 2017-07-11T15:34:06Z Bike: meaning that you can compile generated code, or that it has self-hosting implementations? both are nice features, but also have nothing to do with AI. 2017-07-11T15:34:09Z hound1358: oh sorry.. i didn't express it well 2017-07-11T15:34:23Z hound1358: yes, self hosted 2017-07-11T15:34:28Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:34:31Z Bike: i mean, so is C. 2017-07-11T15:35:14Z hound1358: i mean that you can write coda able to enhance itself with the time 2017-07-11T15:35:22Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:35:27Z hound1358: based on some rules 2017-07-11T15:36:03Z beach agrees with Xach. 2017-07-11T15:36:08Z Bike: you can do that with anything. being able to emulate another program's behavior is what makes a Turing-complete computer a computer. 2017-07-11T15:36:41Z hound1358: not everything, not automatically 2017-07-11T15:36:51Z hound1358: i mean dinamically 2017-07-11T15:37:19Z Bike: yes, everything. you can write a brainfuck program that has access to its own source code, modifies it to improve it, and then runs it (and that program does the same, and so on) 2017-07-11T15:37:32Z Bike: it might be easier in lisp, i guess, but it's not like an incredible qualitative difference. 2017-07-11T15:37:36Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:37:46Z beach: hound1358: The strong point of Common Lisp is that it is "interactive", i.e., the meaning of a program is defined by a sequence of "interactions" that modify some global state of the system. 2017-07-11T15:38:34Z hound1358: i understand 2017-07-11T15:39:19Z beach: hound1358: This feature greatly improves development by letting the programmer experiment by running incomplete code. 2017-07-11T15:39:29Z optikalmouse: beach: that implies quite a lot; while the system is in production you can modify it without restarting servers and instances and doing a whole deploy cycle 2017-07-11T15:39:48Z beach: optikalmouse: Absolutely. 2017-07-11T15:40:30Z beach: Not something that is used very frequently, but essential when you need it. 2017-07-11T15:41:17Z hound1358: i have to leave now, thanks guys you helped a lot 2017-07-11T15:41:23Z Bike: cheers. 2017-07-11T15:41:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:41:58Z optikalmouse: beach: it was awesome to see when coding smalltalk with the seaside web framework; hit the endpoint, it doesn't exist, code it up, hit another one, oops forgot validation, code it up, and just progressively building it up 2017-07-11T15:42:47Z zm quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-11T15:42:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:43:01Z pils_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:45:02Z hound1358 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-11T15:45:35Z Bike: i feel kinda bad for being discouraging but i guess it's better than allowing weird expectations 2017-07-11T15:46:03Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:47:19Z pils_: why does a with-open-file removes leading zero's when reading from a file? 2017-07-11T15:47:43Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T15:48:31Z beach: optikalmouse: Sounds great! 2017-07-11T15:48:54Z beach: pils_: ? 2017-07-11T15:49:01Z beach: pils_: Explain please? 2017-07-11T15:49:11Z beach: Bike: No, I think you are right. 2017-07-11T15:49:56Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:50:41Z beach: pils_: Are you reading integers? Common Lisp integers either have an infinite number of leading 0s or an infinite number of leading 1s. 2017-07-11T15:52:38Z pils_: yes i want to fill a list from a file and some rows in that file start withnzero's: 0 0 0 4 5 0 0 . if i read that with with-open-file and print it the result is 4500 2017-07-11T15:52:48Z beach: pils_: Also, WITH-OPEN-FILE does not do anything particular, other than opening the file and then closing it at the end. It's what you do in the body of WITH-OPEN-FILE that has meaning. 2017-07-11T15:53:11Z pils_: why does he interprete it as a number? 2017-07-11T15:53:12Z flip214 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:53:20Z beach: pils_: Then don't read number. Read characters. 2017-07-11T15:53:28Z beach: pils_: What are you using for reading? 2017-07-11T15:53:32Z beach: What function? 2017-07-11T15:54:40Z pils_: with-open-file and then read 2017-07-11T15:54:48Z beach: pils_: That's READ's job. Use READ-CHAR instead, or READ-LINE. 2017-07-11T15:54:50Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:54:53Z beach: clhs read 2017-07-11T15:54:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 2017-07-11T15:54:56Z beach: clhs read-char 2017-07-11T15:54:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm 2017-07-11T15:55:02Z beach: clhs read-line 2017-07-11T15:55:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 2017-07-11T15:55:16Z pils_: ok thanks 2017-07-11T15:55:27Z beach: pils_: READ is the reader for Common Lisp expressions. Not for characters. 2017-07-11T15:55:51Z oleo: ya it's great for reading forms 2017-07-11T15:56:12Z beach: oleo: Not only forms. Any expressions. 2017-07-11T15:56:49Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T15:57:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T15:58:11Z oleo: i'm ca on page 200 of edi's book 2017-07-11T15:58:21Z oleo: great recipes 2017-07-11T16:00:31Z oleo: i'd not get some of that stuff even if i read the hypersec 200 times over..... 2017-07-11T16:00:34Z oleo: lol 2017-07-11T16:01:43Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:05:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:09:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:10:26Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:10:57Z jsgrant_ quit (Quit: Peace Peeps. o/ If you need me asap, message me at msg[(at)]jsgrant.io & I'll try to get back to you within 24-36 hours.) 2017-07-11T16:11:04Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-11T16:11:07Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:13:27Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:13:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:16:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-11T16:18:40Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:19:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:19:57Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:23:22Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:23:47Z malice`: Reading language specification is not a great way to learn the language. 2017-07-11T16:24:25Z epipping joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:24:38Z jackdaniel: it's not the worst either (given you already know how to program) 2017-07-11T16:25:01Z optikalmouse: malice`: I don't know, I read and re-read the spec for R5RS of scheme ;p 2017-07-11T16:28:26Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2017-07-11T16:29:39Z dispersed: specification schmecification 2017-07-11T16:32:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:33:12Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:35:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:35:53Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:36:23Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:36:29Z malice`: I've said it's not a great way. It's doable, and depending on the spec might not be a bad idea, but I prefer other resources. 2017-07-11T16:36:41Z malice`: Although good luck learning C++ that way :P 2017-07-11T16:37:35Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:39:45Z pjb: minion: electronically composed 2017-07-11T16:39:45Z minion: you speak nonsense 2017-07-11T16:39:49Z pjb: minion: bad electronically composed! 2017-07-11T16:39:49Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 2017-07-11T16:41:54Z malice`: I've found a code that uses (setf (some place) (values something something-else)). Is that a reasonable code? 2017-07-11T16:42:02Z malice`: Will the second value provided by values ever used? 2017-07-11T16:42:46Z malice`: It looks like it won't on non-custom setfs, like (setf *some-place* (values 1 2 3)) ; it would set *some-place* to 1. 2017-07-11T16:43:05Z malice`: What a bout custom ones? I think they won't either, am I wrong? 2017-07-11T16:43:10Z malice`: s/a bout/about 2017-07-11T16:43:50Z Bike: you can have a setf place receive multiple values, yes 2017-07-11T16:43:56Z Bike: most obviously, (setf (values a b) ...) is fine 2017-07-11T16:44:22Z malice`: Oh, I haven't thought of that. 2017-07-11T16:45:27Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:45:30Z malice`: I'm not sure if I like this method though. Are there any benefits for this other than concise code? 2017-07-11T16:46:53Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T16:47:03Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:47:29Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:48:57Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:49:11Z pjb: malice`: you may want to implement atomic assignment of multiple values. 2017-07-11T16:49:41Z pjb: (setf (atomic-values a b c) (values 1 2 3)) 2017-07-11T16:49:55Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:50:03Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-11T16:51:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:53:48Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-11T16:54:02Z Bike: malice`: it makes sense especially when the values are, well, multiple 2017-07-11T16:54:26Z Bike: like if you have two variables in a structure that are the result of a call to FLOOR, you might as well just do (setf (my-place ...) (floor ...)) 2017-07-11T16:55:20Z malice`: Bike: yeah, but I guess that I'd prefer to wrap that in another function, like (set-my-place var) so that I'm sure the call to floor is there, and not some other data 2017-07-11T16:55:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:55:28Z malice`: pjb: that is a nice example, thanks. 2017-07-11T16:55:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:55:41Z Bike: malice`: er what 2017-07-11T16:55:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-11T16:57:58Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T16:59:13Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:00:43Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T17:01:07Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:01:52Z fiveop_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:02:24Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:02:40Z pils_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:02:52Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:03:53Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:03:55Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:04:05Z fiveop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:07:05Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:08:07Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:09:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:10:29Z fiveop_: (asdf:load-system :force t) where is the name of a package inferred system seems not to work like one would like. Is there a workaround? 2017-07-11T17:10:59Z Bike: how so? 2017-07-11T17:11:56Z fiveop_: It does not recompile it. 2017-07-11T17:12:01Z fiveop_: (or it's dependencies) 2017-07-11T17:12:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:12:39Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T17:14:12Z fiveop_: compare (ql:quickload ) (asdf:load-system :force t) for values :lil and :alexandria for example 2017-07-11T17:14:23Z Bike: i think you need :force :all to rebuild dependencies in any case, but it really ought to force the actual system... 2017-07-11T17:14:36Z fiveop_: :all works 2017-07-11T17:14:51Z Bike: what? 2017-07-11T17:15:19Z fiveop_: well t works as expected as well, the root package of a package inferred system is usually pretty empty 2017-07-11T17:15:35Z Bike: ok, so, this does what you wanted? 2017-07-11T17:16:15Z fiveop_: No. I want to load the packages that belong to the "system" but not its external dependencies. I guess ASDF cannot distinguish them. 2017-07-11T17:16:26Z malice`: Bike: umm, what I meant is that instead of providing an interface for, let's say, a "result" class that has a (setf result) method that you would use like (setf (result x) (floor some-number)), I'd prefer to have a (set-result-of x some-number) or (setf (result-of x) some-number) 2017-07-11T17:16:27Z fiveop_: I just hoped, someone might have a solution for this. 2017-07-11T17:16:51Z Bike: fiveop_: oh, so when you said "package inferred system" you meant "a particular group of asdf systems" 2017-07-11T17:17:27Z fiveop_: no 2017-07-11T17:17:34Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-11T17:18:04Z Bike: malice`: what if the floor is the result of some more complicated function? 2017-07-11T17:18:15Z fiveop_: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html#The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension 2017-07-11T17:19:09Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:19:13Z Bike: okay, well i'm seeing "each file is its own system" 2017-07-11T17:20:23Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:21:12Z Bike: so i'm guessing :force t is just forcing the actually specified one, and the inferred systems work the same as the external ones 2017-07-11T17:21:31Z Bike: :force lets you explicitly specify a list of systems to force, so you could do that, but that's not super convenient 2017-07-11T17:21:51Z Bike: that's unfortunate 2017-07-11T17:22:47Z malice`: Bike: yes, it would depend on the class and its purpose, so I think that the discussion here would be pointless without concrete example 2017-07-11T17:23:06Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:23:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:24:40Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:24:58Z Bike: right 2017-07-11T17:25:06Z Bike: just, it's useful sometimes. 2017-07-11T17:25:27Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:26:15Z malice`: I can see. 2017-07-11T17:26:41Z vtomole_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:26:42Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:26:50Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T17:27:10Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:27:23Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:28:19Z fiveop_: Looks like I'm not the first one http://asdf-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com/wExt24rn/operations-on-package-inferred-system 2017-07-11T17:28:34Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T17:30:11Z Bike: oh, fare knows about it. 2017-07-11T17:32:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:37:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:37:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-11T17:37:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:39:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:44:07Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:44:50Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:45:33Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T17:51:21Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T17:52:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:01:26Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:01:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-11T18:09:05Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:09:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:09:49Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:17:40Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:20:09Z MrBusiness quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-07-11T18:26:29Z sukaeto: CL or Ada with representation clauses are a far superior solution that unfortunately won't become popular any time soon 2017-07-11T18:26:51Z sukaeto: yeah, Ada is a great language for real time systems and for talking directly to hardware 2017-07-11T18:26:59Z sukaeto: it's a shame more people don't know about it/use it :-( 2017-07-11T18:27:06Z sukaeto: anyway, this is #lisp, not #ada, so I'll stop 2017-07-11T18:27:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T18:28:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:29:28Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T18:31:42Z tetero: sukaeto: I believe that ADA is used in Swedish jet fighters, or atleast it was. 2017-07-11T18:32:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T18:35:26Z sukaeto: tetero: that wouldn't surprise me - it used to see a lot of military use. Also, Ada is not an acronym - it's named after Ada Lovelace 2017-07-11T18:35:47Z aceluck quit 2017-07-11T18:35:58Z dlowe: unless you've been talking about the American Dental Association all this time :) 2017-07-11T18:36:48Z sukaeto: or the American Disabilities Act :-) 2017-07-11T18:36:50Z tetero: sukaeto: I'm terrible at writing acronyms for languages or software consistently. I know it's Unix but I often write UNIX. I know it's Lisp but I often write LISP. Sorry ;) 2017-07-11T18:38:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T18:41:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:45:43Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:46:14Z juanrgar joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:47:19Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:47:41Z knobo: What is "Ada with representation clauses" and how is it similar to CL? 2017-07-11T18:48:54Z oleo: actually i never saw ada code 2017-07-11T18:48:59Z temporal1 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:49:04Z tetero_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:49:23Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T18:49:23Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T18:49:23Z TeMPOraL quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T18:49:23Z tetero quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T18:49:34Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:53:32Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-11T18:53:46Z edgar-rft: sukaeto: what if Ada Lovelace was named after an acronym? 2017-07-11T18:55:39Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T18:56:06Z tetero_ is now known as tetero 2017-07-11T18:56:15Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:00:08Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:00:56Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:01:02Z varjagg quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-11T19:07:41Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:09:28Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:09:34Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:10:14Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:10:17Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:10:36Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:11:52Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T19:14:50Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-11T19:17:59Z zchlyg joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:18:42Z yaroe joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:19:27Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:20:58Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:21:15Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:21:23Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:24:22Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T19:24:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:25:04Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:25:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:25:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:28:17Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:28:28Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:32:59Z gypsydave5 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:33:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:34:08Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:34:36Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:34:37Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-11T19:39:45Z yaroe: Hello ! I'm curently under fire at work because of Lisp (Common Lisp) 2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe: I work in a small research lab (french gov) in astronomy. We are a 2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe: small team 5 developpers of various domain knowledge and age. We work 2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe: essentially independently on software project (small team). 2017-07-11T19:39:53Z yaroe: 2017-07-11T19:40:23Z yaroe: I've been using CL for years for various tasks. The new team manager decided to dish CL also there are some serious software written in it. Arguments are : 2017-07-11T19:40:44Z yaroe: - lisp is exotic (he knows that lisp is the official extension language of the GNU project but he don't think that matters : GNU/Linux isn 't that a key OS) 2017-07-11T19:40:51Z yaroe: - nobody can reread your software 2017-07-11T19:40:59Z yaroe: - only few people use lisp 2017-07-11T19:41:05Z yaroe: - we can't hire a guy to work with lisp 2017-07-11T19:41:35Z temporal1 is now known as TeMPOraL 2017-07-11T19:41:59Z dlowe: well, the last is empirically untrue, since you're working three 2017-07-11T19:42:03Z dlowe: *there 2017-07-11T19:42:08Z Bike: is there a question here? 2017-07-11T19:42:20Z dlowe: Sorry. Sounds like a real bummer. 2017-07-11T19:42:48Z vtomole_: Hey Bike 2017-07-11T19:42:49Z yaroe: I wonder if the comunity has something pre-made to deal with this kind of situation 2017-07-11T19:43:06Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:43:16Z tetero: yaroe: Wrap an argument around greenspuns tenth rule? 2017-07-11T19:43:32Z Bike: it all boils down to "it's not popular" 2017-07-11T19:43:35Z Bike: vtomole_: need something? 2017-07-11T19:43:56Z vtomole_: Yeah we never finished out convo yesterday, i'm trying to understand the stack machine. 2017-07-11T19:44:00Z vtomole_: *our 2017-07-11T19:44:48Z vtomole_: Specificcal how it can execute lisp expressions 2017-07-11T19:44:57Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T19:46:17Z yaroe: provide answers, where on the web finding a lisp guy to hire is esay etc 2017-07-11T19:46:29Z Bike: okay, well, what i said yesterday is that compilation essentially means translating an algorithm in one universe of operations (lambda, function calls, numbers) into another (jump, bit patterns), and the latter will often be more impoverished for the sake of making it easy to execute 2017-07-11T19:46:31Z dlowe: yaroe: The best thing you can do is admit that it's not popular, and explain that it will take a lot of time (and money) to reimplement the existing CL codebase in something else, and the result will have a costly period of bugginess 2017-07-11T19:47:06Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:47:22Z dlowe: If they are committed to paying the costs, then there's not much you can do. 2017-07-11T19:47:24Z TeMPOraL: I'd add that, on the other hand, any developer worth their salt will be able to quickly learn to read the code; learning tech on the fly is kind of what good devs do for a living 2017-07-11T19:47:29Z TeMPOraL: but maybe that's a little too snarky 2017-07-11T19:47:39Z Bike: a computer mostly just has operations for manipulating fixed-length binary words, and somehow we get IRC clients out of that 2017-07-11T19:47:40Z yaroe: tetero: he doesn't bother 2017-07-11T19:48:12Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-11T19:48:48Z yaroe: dlowe: that's sound reasonnable. 2017-07-11T19:48:50Z vtomole_: Bike: Of course. But how can a stack machine create a closure? 2017-07-11T19:49:03Z tetero: TeMPOraL: I'm not sure why, but most developers I know find Lisp completely unreadable, my hypothesis is that it just goes counter to what they're used to 2017-07-11T19:49:21Z dlowe: but emphasize that there's time costs (it will cost a lot to move away), opportunity costs (you won't be able to work on other things), productivity costs (due to the increased number of bugs) 2017-07-11T19:49:28Z tetero: A lot of people dislike 'different' 2017-07-11T19:49:34Z vtomole_: tetero: Reading lisp code is pretty difficult if it's not your own. 2017-07-11T19:49:40Z dlowe: plus morale costs (you're grumpy about not working in lisp) 2017-07-11T19:49:48Z tetero: vtomole_: Oh. 2017-07-11T19:49:59Z vtomole_: tetero: at least for me 2017-07-11T19:50:01Z dlowe: reading code is difficult 2017-07-11T19:50:06Z Bike: vtomole_: usually a closure is represented as a pointer to code (the function) and a vector (closed-over variables) 2017-07-11T19:50:12Z TeMPOraL: tetero: I agree, but that's a very superficial even for them 2017-07-11T19:50:19Z TeMPOraL: if they can read XML or HTML then they can read 2017-07-11T19:50:39Z Bike: the vector is, say, provided as an argument to the function, and accesses to the closed-over variables are compiled as references into the vector 2017-07-11T19:50:43Z TeMPOraL: and all that "prefix notation sucks" talk really means they don't understand the evaluation order of their "mainstream" language 2017-07-11T19:50:49Z tetero: TeMPOraL: I find that with some things people just shut down. Like introducing a mathematical symbol like sigma, which is really super easy to understand if explained 2017-07-11T19:50:55Z TeMPOraL: i.e. f(a, b, c) is the same as (f a b c), with a paren shifted to the left 2017-07-11T19:51:04Z yaroe: TeMPOraL: I agree with you 2017-07-11T19:51:06Z TeMPOraL: exactly 2017-07-11T19:51:10Z TeMPOraL: I think this is the phenomenon at work 2017-07-11T19:51:48Z tetero: TeMPOraL: cognitive dissonance perhaps? 2017-07-11T19:51:53Z dlowe: well, there's a survival bias in the lisp channel :p 2017-07-11T19:51:55Z tetero: or just neophobia? 2017-07-11T19:52:09Z dlowe: those that can't get over it aren't likely to be here 2017-07-11T19:52:54Z tetero: Aye. 2017-07-11T19:53:18Z Bike: vtomole_: that's one way. and obviously none of that is specific to it being a stack machine. 2017-07-11T19:53:20Z TeMPOraL: dlowe: true, but that doesn't change the fact on the ground: a lot of arguments for "lisp is hard to read" apply exactly the same way to the usual languages 2017-07-11T19:53:32Z TeMPOraL: which suggests that those arguments are bogus; they're rationalizations for something else entirely 2017-07-11T19:53:34Z dlowe: on the other hand, I've never seen anyone fail to get used to lisp when they depended on it for a paycheck 2017-07-11T19:53:52Z tetero: It's that I'm a fairly new Lisper and when I discovered it I happily wanted to show it to my friends, and while I'm not great at Lisp, I don't see how the parens make it hard to read at all. I'm rather happy that I don't have to use { } and ( ) all the time 2017-07-11T19:54:00Z dlowe: TeMPOraL: sure, I'm just saying that "no one here has trouble with it" is good evidence 2017-07-11T19:54:54Z TeMPOraL: also, between IRC, HackerNews and lisp events, I'm not so sure they'd have trouble finding someone to work on Lisp code 2017-07-11T19:55:05Z TeMPOraL: my impression is that there's lots of people who like Lisp and would like a job in it 2017-07-11T19:55:21Z vtomole_: Bike: How about procedures? What does ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 2) translate to on a primitive machine like x86 or stack machine? 2017-07-11T19:56:59Z vtomole_: Bike: I'm not asking for pseudocode, just the general idea of how this would be compiled. 2017-07-11T19:57:03Z Bike: well, that could be inlined as "PUSH 2, PUSH 2, MULT", or it could be "L: DUP, MULT; PUSH 2, JUMP L" 2017-07-11T19:57:05Z Bike: ha ha, too late. 2017-07-11T19:57:24Z vtomole_: Bike even better! I thought it would take longer 2017-07-11T19:57:26Z Bike: well, so you have some code somewhere that's the function body, and then when you want to call the function, you prepare the arguments and then jump to that code. 2017-07-11T19:57:58Z Bike: in my example "L: DUP, MULT" is the function body, and you call it by pushing the argument and then jumping to L. 2017-07-11T19:59:35Z vtomole_: Bike: How about every huge procedures? Bigger stack? Or execute it in small chunks? 2017-07-11T19:59:40Z vtomole_: *very 2017-07-11T20:00:02Z Bike: nothing i have said depends on stack size or anything 2017-07-11T20:00:27Z vtomole_: Bike: What does depend of stack size? 2017-07-11T20:00:48Z vtomole_: *on damn can't type today! 2017-07-11T20:00:57Z Bike: i don't know why you are worried about stack size. 2017-07-11T20:01:25Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:01:34Z vtomole_: So the size of the procedure doesn't depend on stack size. Got it. 2017-07-11T20:02:30Z Bike: i'm being abstract here. just assume you have infinite space for code and infinite space for a stack. 2017-07-11T20:02:45Z yaroe: OK thank you ! Emphazing on costs and give a few ref places for hiring will help. 2017-07-11T20:02:48Z Bike: most of the time you essentially do, on a modern puter 2017-07-11T20:02:59Z yaroe quit (Quit: bye.) 2017-07-11T20:05:38Z fiveop_ quit 2017-07-11T20:06:05Z vtomole_: Bike: How would this:(defun square (x) (* x x)) be different on the stack machine vs the lambda expression I posted earlier? 2017-07-11T20:06:06Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:06:50Z Bike: the actual function body would probably be identical 2017-07-11T20:07:40Z vtomole_: But the variable "square"? That gets binded to the environment, correct? 2017-07-11T20:08:02Z Bike: well, sure. 2017-07-11T20:08:25Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:08:36Z vtomole_: And how is this environment defined? 2017-07-11T20:08:58Z Bike: dunno. that's not really related to the stack machine. 2017-07-11T20:09:07Z Bike: basic implementation would be a couple hash tables. 2017-07-11T20:10:44Z vtomole_: When you call (square 4), the stack machine needs to know about the location of "square" body, right? How will a hash table help? 2017-07-11T20:11:06Z jackdaniel: vtomole_: if you are interested in such machines, you may want to read ECL bytecodes compiler/interpreter code (implemented in C) 2017-07-11T20:11:24Z Bike: (gethash 'square global-environment) => a closure or whatever 2017-07-11T20:11:47Z jackdaniel: src/c/compiler.d and src/c/interpreter.d in the source tree (with many comments describing it) 2017-07-11T20:11:51Z vtomole_: jackdaniel: Thanks 2017-07-11T20:13:04Z epipping quit 2017-07-11T20:13:09Z p_l: vtomole_: usually the stack machine will have something like PUSH 4, CALL
2017-07-11T20:13:16Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T20:13:36Z p_l: where the compiler that generated the code precalculates where everything is 2017-07-11T20:13:56Z p_l: or codes in a way to figure out the address 2017-07-11T20:14:07Z gypsydave5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T20:14:08Z vtomole_: p_l: ah! That's the connection i was struggling with. 2017-07-11T20:14:14Z procl0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T20:15:26Z gaz___ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:15:39Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-11T20:15:46Z p_l: vtomole_: many cases usually end up in a vector of addresses st a known location, with eqch function having a known offset from the start of the vector 2017-07-11T20:16:18Z p_l: that's how interrupt handlers are called by cpu on pretty much every computer, for example 2017-07-11T20:17:08Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:17:37Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:18:06Z p_l: vtomole_: a surprisingly good place to learn some basics of how it is all linked together in practice is old 8bit home computer manuals 2017-07-11T20:18:14Z p_l: lots of emulators and code samples 2017-07-11T20:18:22Z Merv_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T20:18:40Z p_l spent childhood reading Atari 65XE OS source... 2017-07-11T20:19:07Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:19:25Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T20:21:26Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T20:22:09Z vtomole_: p_l I'll look into those, i just found this:http://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/12/chip8-cpu/ 2017-07-11T20:22:57Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T20:22:57Z Bike: looks like a pretty basic register machine. not bad. 2017-07-11T20:25:24Z p_l: generally, simple machine to comprehend behaviour plus good examples etc. 2017-07-11T20:26:26Z p_l: Mind you, simple doesn't mean useless or slow... while MIPS might be a bit big, MMIX is pretty nice and very modern design that is still described fully in one chapter 2017-07-11T20:26:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:31:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:33:12Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:35:40Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-11T20:35:46Z oaao joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:36:09Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:36:21Z malice` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T20:36:58Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T20:38:43Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T20:40:14Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2017-07-11T20:41:37Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-11T20:44:27Z borodust is now known as libuv 2017-07-11T20:44:44Z libuv is now known as borodust 2017-07-11T20:47:43Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:51:10Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T20:51:17Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T20:51:30Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-11T20:53:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:05:52Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:06:06Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:09:00Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:09:18Z msb quit (Quit: ENOENT) 2017-07-11T21:10:38Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-11T21:12:50Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:14:47Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:15:08Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:15:36Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:17:50Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2017-07-11T21:18:50Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:19:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:21:24Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:21:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T21:22:01Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:27:30Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:29:19Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:30:30Z sucks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T21:32:04Z sucks_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T21:32:31Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:33:21Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:33:49Z reverse_light joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:36:05Z jeremiah__ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:37:30Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:41:24Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T21:47:35Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T21:53:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T21:54:29Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-11T21:54:40Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T21:59:44Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:00:43Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:13:03Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-11T22:14:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:16:56Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T22:17:09Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:19:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:19:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 277 seconds) 2017-07-11T22:21:16Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T22:27:06Z butterthebuddha quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-11T22:27:26Z butterthebuddha joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:32:01Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:32:26Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-11T22:34:59Z d4ryus4 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T22:35:13Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T22:37:53Z d4ryus3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T22:50:19Z TruePika: meh, trying to mess around with the CFFI via my Windows CCL instance... 2017-07-11T22:50:36Z TruePika: when I try to load my foreign library... 2017-07-11T22:50:39Z TruePika: Error opening shared library floating.dll : %1 is not a valid Win32 application. . 2017-07-11T22:50:54Z TruePika: I've already confirmed that it is, in fact, a valid DLL 2017-07-11T22:51:23Z TruePika: floating.dll: PE32 executable (DLL) (console) Intel 80386, for MS Windows 2017-07-11T22:56:53Z drmeister: mop ~? 2017-07-11T22:56:53Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ~?. 2017-07-11T22:56:58Z drmeister: mop format ~? 2017-07-11T22:57:19Z drmeister: Was there a way to look up what format directives did? 2017-07-11T22:58:32Z andrear joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:00:24Z TruePika: hs format 2017-07-11T23:00:31Z TruePika: hyperspec format 2017-07-11T23:00:35Z TruePika: spec format 2017-07-11T23:00:38Z TruePika: I give up. 2017-07-11T23:01:11Z TruePika: I believe ~? was recursion 2017-07-11T23:02:22Z TruePika: hm, I'm trying to test the DLL, I'm failing to link 2017-07-11T23:02:26Z TruePika checks depends 2017-07-11T23:02:36Z p_l: http://l1sp.org works at least 2017-07-11T23:02:57Z TruePika: hm, none of my functions are exported for some strange reason 2017-07-11T23:02:57Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:03:38Z TruePika: which might be related to CFFI load failures, but it might not be 2017-07-11T23:04:09Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:06:14Z andrear quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-11T23:12:55Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-11T23:14:17Z Vceqy joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:17:38Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:21:38Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T23:25:07Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T23:27:24Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-11T23:29:15Z zchlyg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T23:29:49Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-11T23:29:58Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-11T23:30:11Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:30:57Z kajo quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-11T23:32:56Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-11T23:39:48Z bradw joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:39:48Z bradw is now known as warweasle 2017-07-11T23:45:48Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:46:37Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:48:18Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-11T23:48:55Z mfiano joined #lisp 2017-07-11T23:51:30Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-11T23:53:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:01:35Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:04:26Z rocx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:06:26Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T00:07:21Z Mynock^_^ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:18:39Z sucks_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T00:18:52Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:20:33Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:22:02Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:23:13Z EvW1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T00:23:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:26:48Z Pollwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T00:27:02Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:29:02Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:31:38Z MetaHert` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T00:33:41Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T00:38:37Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-12T00:47:43Z juanrgar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T00:49:45Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T00:51:01Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T00:53:04Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T00:58:21Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:04:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T01:08:55Z defaultxr: is it possible to prevent function redefinition in the same file from causing warnings? warnings will prevent my project from compiling properly for quicklisp. i have a macro that i'm using to generate functions but sometimes i want to override one of the functions that the macro generates. putting those functions in a separate file would make the project needlessly messy and disorganized. 2017-07-12T01:09:57Z Mynock^_^ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T01:10:25Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T01:12:30Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:14:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T01:16:20Z Lord_of_- is now known as Lord_of_Life 2017-07-12T01:16:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2017-07-12T01:16:26Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:16:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2017-07-12T01:16:26Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:17:27Z rocx left #lisp 2017-07-12T01:19:18Z Bike: defaultxr: there are some implementation specific things to try, but i'd really recommend reorganizing your code so that the generated definition is not generated. 2017-07-12T01:20:48Z defaultxr: that's unfortunate but kind of what i figured. thanks. 2017-07-12T01:21:50Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:22:32Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:24:24Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:24:53Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-12T01:32:08Z Pollwa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T01:44:34Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:48:02Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T01:48:10Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-12T01:48:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:48:56Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:49:51Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:50:25Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T01:53:17Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-12T01:53:52Z emaczen: are there SBCL functions for inspecting the heap? 2017-07-12T01:56:43Z Bike: some. what do you want to know? 2017-07-12T01:58:36Z emaczen: Bike: I'm running out of memory a lot, and I would like to get some idea of the cause. I ultimately want to estimate how much memory a program will use during its lifetime. 2017-07-12T02:00:20Z JuanDaugherty: inspecting the implementation details seems the wrong way 2017-07-12T02:00:48Z JuanDaugherty: (unless ur debuggin sbcl) 2017-07-12T02:01:24Z emaczen: JuanDaugherty: well my program is dependent upon inputs 2017-07-12T02:01:36Z JuanDaugherty: inputs? 2017-07-12T02:01:56Z emaczen: the size of the data loaded 2017-07-12T02:02:00Z JuanDaugherty: most programs have them 2017-07-12T02:02:33Z JuanDaugherty: room, profiling etc seems better way to go 2017-07-12T02:02:42Z emaczen: what is room? 2017-07-12T02:02:59Z JuanDaugherty: a function that will report memory usage 2017-07-12T02:03:37Z emaczen: is it compiler-specific? 2017-07-12T02:04:02Z JuanDaugherty: not sure but think so, checking 2017-07-12T02:04:25Z JuanDaugherty: no it's standard 2017-07-12T02:05:02Z emaczen: JuanDaugherty: awesome, it looks to be up the alley that I am looking for. 2017-07-12T02:05:19Z JuanDaugherty: so if you put it in your input loop someplace should show where things go south 2017-07-12T02:07:29Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:13:05Z emaczen: Are there any space-saving techniques that I should be aware of? 2017-07-12T02:13:27Z emaczen: I'm only aware of declaim compile and setting the space parameter to 3 2017-07-12T02:13:58Z Bike: avoid allocating things 2017-07-12T02:14:03Z Bike: that sounds like a joke but it's basically it 2017-07-12T02:14:21Z Bike: the destructure functions help with that, like nsubstitute and so on 2017-07-12T02:14:25Z Bike: destructive* 2017-07-12T02:15:31Z emaczen: Bike: My program is kind of an in-memory database... maybe I'll have to work on making it a regular database... 2017-07-12T02:15:56Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:16:00Z Bike: you might still be able to reduce the size of the database 2017-07-12T02:16:11Z Bike: use more packed structures and stuff 2017-07-12T02:16:24Z emaczen: packed-structures? 2017-07-12T02:16:50Z |3b|: typed arrays can help sometimes 2017-07-12T02:17:06Z emaczen: almost everything is an object or list ... 2017-07-12T02:17:57Z |3b|: untyped arrays might be smaller than lists, assuming resizing them to fit data isn't a problem 2017-07-12T02:17:57Z Bike: well, if you have a list of 10k elements, that's 10k cons cells, each of which has two pointers. maybe using arrays would reduce that. 2017-07-12T02:20:13Z Bike: it can be tricky. i had to revert a change i made in cleavir. i eliminated intermediate consing and switched to bit vectors, thought i was clever, but it made the system hang cos the vectors had to be too big 2017-07-12T02:21:11Z emaczen: Bike: yeah, space efficiency in that realm is important. I'm just going to try to figure out my options. 2017-07-12T02:21:17Z |3b|: 32bit lisp might save a bit over 64bit, if the data fits in the smaller address space 2017-07-12T02:22:11Z Bike: base string might be smaller than unicode string, if you can afford to piss off most humans 2017-07-12T02:22:25Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T02:22:39Z Bike: or maybe you could use babel to keep strings in memory as utf8. wonder if that works 2017-07-12T02:22:52Z |3b|: yeah, that was my next suggestion :) 2017-07-12T02:23:17Z |3b|: or some other encoding that fits the data well... could even compress it depending on the speed/size tradeoffs 2017-07-12T02:28:02Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:28:36Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:30:05Z slaejae quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-12T02:31:06Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:36:57Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T02:40:58Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T02:44:06Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:46:08Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:46:10Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T02:47:11Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:48:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:49:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:49:55Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T02:55:38Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:56:01Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-07-12T02:56:44Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:05:27Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:05:57Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:06:26Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-12T03:06:37Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:07:45Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T03:07:48Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:18:55Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:20:13Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:21:49Z quad__ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:21:57Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:22:08Z quad__: this has probably been brought up many times before, but what would be an approach to implementing a computed goto (unportably) in any lisp? I thought someone had some sample code somewhere 2017-07-12T03:23:03Z Bike: that depends pretty intimately on the code generator 2017-07-12T03:23:31Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-12T03:24:05Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:28:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-12T03:28:29Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T03:34:56Z brandonz joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:36:32Z shrdlu68: beach: Morning beach 2017-07-12T03:38:47Z procl0 quit (Quit: abc) 2017-07-12T03:39:38Z quad__ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-12T03:39:43Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:42:27Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:42:28Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T03:42:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:45:19Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:45:52Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:46:04Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:49:02Z arquebus quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T03:51:57Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T03:52:23Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:54:29Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-12T03:57:40Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:02:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:04:55Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T04:05:12Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:19:32Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T04:19:35Z yxabc joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:20:05Z yxabc quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T04:21:27Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:23:40Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:24:01Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:26:55Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:26:58Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-12T04:27:34Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:29:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:32:03Z rotty joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:33:17Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:33:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:34:06Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:36:04Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:41:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:43:02Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:44:30Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:44:45Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2017-07-12T04:48:34Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:49:07Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:50:13Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:52:26Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:56:18Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:57:00Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T04:57:30Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:58:29Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-12T04:58:47Z Merv_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T05:03:47Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:06:32Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:08:30Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-12T05:09:20Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:12:14Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:16:48Z rk[ghost]: suggestion for a curl-like library? 2017-07-12T05:18:06Z |3b|: drakma can download things over HTTP, probably doesn't do everything curl does though 2017-07-12T05:18:31Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T05:22:03Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:25:26Z axion: There is also dexador, which seems to be getting regular updates still https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador 2017-07-12T05:25:32Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-12T05:25:35Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:38:09Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:40:49Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T05:41:08Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T05:44:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:46:10Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T05:46:42Z MetaHert` joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:51:36Z rk[ghost]: |3b|: aye aye. thanks. i just used curl as an example as it is common, but you are right that i mostly just want an HTTP/S client. 2017-07-12T05:51:49Z rk[ghost]: or library rather, i am going to write this "client" 2017-07-12T05:52:05Z rk[ghost]: will check out drakma.. thanksz:) 2017-07-12T05:53:22Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T05:54:10Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T05:59:05Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:02:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:04:10Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:05:32Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T06:06:14Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:07:25Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T06:10:35Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:11:00Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:11:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:14:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:16:09Z peterhil quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2017-07-12T06:17:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:19:08Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:20:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T06:21:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:25:52Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:26:35Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:26:46Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:26:50Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:28:32Z vsync joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:31:58Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:32:45Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:33:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:35:54Z Vceqy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T06:41:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:44:18Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:46:25Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:46:39Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-12T06:51:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:54:55Z toni joined #lisp 2017-07-12T06:55:53Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T06:59:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:03:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:03:25Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T07:05:53Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T07:14:48Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:18:03Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T07:20:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2017-07-12T07:21:08Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@123.21.114.188 2017-07-12T07:21:37Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@113.172.97.68 2017-07-12T07:23:35Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T07:26:25Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T07:28:58Z lagagain joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:29:00Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T07:30:36Z Suzuran42 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:30:55Z Suzuran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T07:30:55Z Suzuran42 is now known as Suzuran 2017-07-12T07:30:57Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:31:18Z vsync joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:32:38Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T07:35:21Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T07:37:39Z vtomole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T07:45:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:47:12Z eMBee joined #lisp 2017-07-12T07:51:41Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-12T07:52:36Z toni quit 2017-07-12T08:01:43Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:04:28Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T08:11:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:13:31Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:14:33Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:17:16Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T08:23:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:34:34Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T08:39:00Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:43:40Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T08:50:25Z rotty joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:55:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-12T08:56:05Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T08:58:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:02:47Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:04:49Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:05:46Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:05:46Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2017-07-12T09:07:51Z easye joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:08:41Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:09:09Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:09:48Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:11:39Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:13:08Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:13:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:13:43Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:15:08Z ludston joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:18:22Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T09:21:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:22:52Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:24:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:25:46Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T09:25:47Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:29:01Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:30:55Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:32:03Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:32:50Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T09:34:42Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:36:01Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:37:05Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:39:40Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:43:57Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:44:33Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T09:46:15Z Pollwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T09:46:28Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:52:55Z ghard` joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:52:57Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T09:57:50Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-12T09:59:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:01:15Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T10:01:28Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T10:01:30Z lvo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:08:49Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T10:10:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:11:25Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:12:44Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T10:15:38Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T10:16:44Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:17:51Z loke` is now known as loke 2017-07-12T10:19:23Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-12T10:21:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:35:50Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:36:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T10:38:34Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-12T10:43:55Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T10:46:44Z nimiux quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-12T10:46:49Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:49:18Z nimiux joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:49:33Z nimiux quit (Changing host) 2017-07-12T10:49:33Z nimiux joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:51:15Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:51:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-12T10:57:01Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T11:01:30Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:02:28Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T11:03:33Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:03:55Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T11:04:45Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:21:30Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:26:52Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T11:29:05Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T11:34:20Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T11:40:11Z thetabit joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:40:29Z thetabit: Morning everyone 2017-07-12T11:40:34Z phoe: Hey thetabit 2017-07-12T11:40:42Z thetabit: Quick question I hope 2017-07-12T11:40:54Z phoe: Is the answer 42? :) 2017-07-12T11:41:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:42:01Z thetabit: I am looking for a function that can essentially copy-list-until you find a character. Is there function like this already that I am missing 2017-07-12T11:42:08Z thetabit: ? 2017-07-12T11:42:17Z phoe: Copy a list until you find a character? 2017-07-12T11:42:25Z phoe: Can you give some example input and expected output? 2017-07-12T11:42:28Z thetabit: Sure 2017-07-12T11:43:32Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:43:42Z thetabit: You have a list '(1 2 3 4 5 6) and begin parsing at 1, then copy each item in the list until you reach say 5 and return '(1 2 3 4 5) 2017-07-12T11:43:51Z thetabit: basically a substring only for lists 2017-07-12T11:44:06Z phoe: 5 is not a character 2017-07-12T11:44:21Z phoe: do you mean, until you find something, let's say, EQL to an object? 2017-07-12T11:44:49Z thetabit: Let me try another example 2017-07-12T11:46:56Z phoe: because it seems that you can combine POSITION (for getting the element's index) with SUBSEQ (for getting a subsequence of elements of all elements until the found element's index) 2017-07-12T11:47:19Z thetabit: the List: '(#\Stx #\G #\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5 #\Fs #\A #\M #\0 #\1) and I want to copy between the #\Stx and #\Fs so the result would be '(#\Stx #\G #\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5 #\Fs) 2017-07-12T11:47:23Z thetabit: Something like that 2017-07-12T11:49:14Z thetabit: Oh nice phoe 2017-07-12T11:49:17Z thetabit: I see what you mean 2017-07-12T11:49:26Z thetabit: Let me give that a shot 2017-07-12T11:49:53Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T11:50:10Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T11:50:14Z phoe: thetabit: combine POSITION and SUBSEQ, it should give you what you want. 2017-07-12T11:50:45Z thetabit: Yes! it works! 2017-07-12T11:50:49Z phoe: This will work if you have only one #\Fs because POSITION will find the leftmost element. 2017-07-12T11:50:52Z phoe: <3 2017-07-12T11:51:07Z thetabit: Thanks! 2017-07-12T11:51:24Z phoe: No problem - poke us if you have more questions. 2017-07-12T11:52:15Z Bike: (loop for c in list collect c until (eql c mark)) is a little uglier but avoids an iteration 2017-07-12T11:54:06Z phoe: yes, you only travel the list once in Bike's solution. 2017-07-12T11:54:18Z thetabit: hmm 2017-07-12T11:54:26Z thetabit: which would be better 2017-07-12T11:54:29Z phoe: beach: I will need a link to your chapter about protocols. 2017-07-12T11:54:45Z phoe: thetabit: do you understand LOOP well enough to be able to read and understand this line that Bike posted? 2017-07-12T11:55:36Z Bike: you should define a function like (defun subseq-at (endmark) (subseq ... (position ...))), use that, and then later if it's actually a problem switch the definition to use the loop 2017-07-12T11:55:38Z thetabit: Yes, and I think that it might actually fit more inline with what I am designing 2017-07-12T11:56:12Z thetabit: It will be good practice to do both I think 2017-07-12T11:56:15Z phoe: Bike has a point there with defining a helper function. 2017-07-12T11:56:17Z thetabit: :D 2017-07-12T11:57:03Z phoe: beach: Or is that chapter somewhere public, like, on your Github? 2017-07-12T11:58:14Z sfa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-12T11:58:58Z Bike: phoe: is it this? http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf 2017-07-12T11:59:31Z phoe: Bike: yes! Thank you. 2017-07-12T11:59:58Z phoe: I should put a link to this somewhere visible because I'm looking for this document for the sixth time of my life or something. 2017-07-12T12:00:24Z phoe puts it under the #lisp-pl IRC bot. 2017-07-12T12:00:31Z Bike: i googled "site:metamodular.com protocol" 2017-07-12T12:00:39Z Bike: actually protocols. 2017-07-12T12:00:41Z phoe: Bike: d'oh 2017-07-12T12:01:02Z phoe: I didn't think of it 2017-07-12T12:03:26Z nosefouratyou_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:08:01Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:08:27Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:11:34Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:12:42Z thetabit: Bike I like your loop solution, works like a charm. I think it is more readable but that's probably because I have using Scala and it feels similar 2017-07-12T12:12:54Z Bike: as you like 2017-07-12T12:16:38Z phoe: thetabit: functional composition, like with POSITION/SUBSEQ, is pretty standard in almost all languages, where LOOP is a pretty peculiar macro - it's English-ish in how it's written out. Some people like it, some people don't. 2017-07-12T12:17:02Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:17:05Z beach: phoe: It is not public. And I revised it after my favorite co-author read and criticized it. 2017-07-12T12:17:19Z beach: phoe: Let me give you a link to a new version. Give me a minute 2017-07-12T12:18:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:18:53Z beach: phoe: OK, same link as before. New version. 2017-07-12T12:18:54Z beach: 2017-07-12T12:19:00Z phoe: beach: thanks. 2017-07-12T12:19:14Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T12:19:15Z phoe: I actually have a question about the old version, let me see if it still holds in the new one... 2017-07-12T12:19:22Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-12T12:19:55Z phoe: Hah, you now use fancier symbols in 5.2! 2017-07-12T12:20:07Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:20:48Z phoe: I actually wonder about 5.2.2, about the partitions. Why must there not exist such a partition? Because then it means that we have two protocols and not one? 2017-07-12T12:20:49Z beach: Yeah. It gets a bit more precise that way. 2017-07-12T12:20:59Z beach: phoe: Correct. 2017-07-12T12:21:26Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:22:07Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:22:08Z thinkpad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T12:22:22Z beach: phoe: See the example in the last paragraph of 5.4. You can see that there are two independent protocols there. 2017-07-12T12:22:22Z phoe: Oh, now 5.2 mentions types participating in/introduced by the protocol. 2017-07-12T12:22:28Z phoe: Let me chew on this for a moment. 2017-07-12T12:22:44Z lvo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T12:22:46Z beach: Take your time. 2017-07-12T12:24:09Z phoe: So a protocol is a tuple (τ, ω) where τ consists only the *introduced* types. 2017-07-12T12:24:12Z phoe: And might be empty. 2017-07-12T12:24:19Z beach: Right. 2017-07-12T12:24:32Z phoe: This means that I can introduce a protocol that has no "new" types, like, operates only on standard CL types. 2017-07-12T12:24:45Z beach: Yes, that's the implication. 2017-07-12T12:25:05Z phoe: Hah, I like it the new way. It feels nicer. 2017-07-12T12:25:31Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:25:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:25:54Z beach: It does. I am very lucky to have such a good co-author. Everyone deserves one, but few are as lucky as I am. 2017-07-12T12:27:13Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:27:20Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:27:21Z phoe: "Frequently, the set of participating types is omitted from the description of the protocol." 2017-07-12T12:27:43Z Ven is now known as Guest4446 2017-07-12T12:27:51Z phoe: You mean that these types can "happen" inside the operations, but there is no complete set of these types imprinted into the protocol itself? 2017-07-12T12:28:09Z beach: Yeah, usually because anything (T) will do or because they are integers or some other mundane type. 2017-07-12T12:28:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:28:33Z beach: CONS does not explicitly mention that T participates, but that is in fact the case. 2017-07-12T12:29:23Z phoe: I wonder, are there any requirements for describing the participating types inside a protocol? 2017-07-12T12:29:25Z beach: In a window protocol, you might have (find-child window child-number), but you might omit that (INTEGER 0) is a participating type. 2017-07-12T12:29:47Z beach: phoe: You have to remember that this definition is something I invented. 2017-07-12T12:29:56Z phoe: Like, if an operation accepts something of type FOO or returns something of type FOO, does the protocol need to specify what a FOO is? 2017-07-12T12:30:24Z beach: I would say that it depends on how prominent FOO is. If it is T, it can probably be left out. 2017-07-12T12:30:26Z phoe: beach: I remember, that's why I'm speculating. I'm also trying to understand it better, including the corner cases that appear on my mind. 2017-07-12T12:30:44Z phoe: Leaving out T sounds sane. 2017-07-12T12:31:05Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:31:06Z beach: You would mention it some other way, like "where X can be any object". 2017-07-12T12:31:10Z Guest4446 is now known as Ven`` 2017-07-12T12:31:25Z phoe: Which is synonymous to "where X is of type T". Right. 2017-07-12T12:31:29Z beach: Right. 2017-07-12T12:31:52Z beach: But you would not see a special line like ... "T [participating type]". 2017-07-12T12:32:20Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:32:28Z phoe: I would only expect such stuff in very formal documents. 2017-07-12T12:33:19Z beach: Yes, but I do describe protocols this way. And I do mention the types [usually classes] that are defined by the protocol, in that kind of way. 2017-07-12T12:33:34Z phoe nods. 2017-07-12T12:34:37Z Ven`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T12:34:56Z phoe: Oh, the last paragraph in 5.4 answers my question. You added it in the new version. 2017-07-12T12:35:05Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:35:24Z beach: I think it was there before actually. 2017-07-12T12:35:46Z phoe: Nope - I have it printed, it's not there. 2017-07-12T12:35:50Z beach: Oh, OK. 2017-07-12T12:36:22Z beach: Maybe I had an intermediate version where it was present, but I never showed that version to you. 2017-07-12T12:36:26Z phoe: Yes, most likely. 2017-07-12T12:38:04Z phoe: I like this new version. Thanks! 2017-07-12T12:39:12Z midre joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:39:41Z shaftoe_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:40:11Z Pollwa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T12:40:12Z Pollwa` joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:40:17Z mjl_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:40:22Z ante joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:40:28Z kilimanjaro_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:40:38Z zbigniew_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:40:57Z zbigniew joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:41:07Z jack_rabbit_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:41:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:41:22Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:22Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:22Z mjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T12:41:22Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:22Z shaftoe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:23Z Suzuran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:23Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:23Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:23Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:23Z Suzuran joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:41:23Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T12:41:27Z kilimanjaro_ is now known as kilimanjaro 2017-07-12T12:41:30Z mjl_ is now known as mjl 2017-07-12T12:41:32Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:41:53Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:41:54Z beach: phoe: Great! Let me know if you have additional remarks, once you have digested it. 2017-07-12T12:42:01Z arrsim joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:42:20Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:42:41Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:42:48Z phoe: 5.5 Completeness feels a little bit too teasing to me. 2017-07-12T12:43:05Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:43:34Z phoe: Since you want to focus only on complete protocols, I'd like to hear a little bit more about why we only want complete protocols and what is a complete protocol. 2017-07-12T12:43:37Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:43:37Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:44:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:44:32Z beach: I know. But I have no definition for you at this point. Maybe I'll find a definition of incomplete protocol at some later point. 2017-07-12T12:44:40Z phoe: Asking the reader in this place to find such a definition does not feel like a proper thing to do here, at least to me - I don't really have the background to provide an answer as formal as a definition here, especially that 5.2 contains a pretty formal definition. 2017-07-12T12:44:42Z beach: But you see my example, right? 2017-07-12T12:44:47Z phoe: Yes, I see. 2017-07-12T12:44:55Z beach: I am not asking the reader. 2017-07-12T12:45:00Z beach: The footnote is for me. 2017-07-12T12:45:05Z phoe: Oh. Ooooh. 2017-07-12T12:45:11Z beach: This is not published material. 2017-07-12T12:45:20Z beach: The footnote will disappear before publication. 2017-07-12T12:45:25Z phoe: I know. I just didn't realize this. :) 2017-07-12T12:45:46Z phoe: I'd prefix this with a TODO if I was doing such work. 2017-07-12T12:46:34Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:46:35Z beach: I don't need it myself. I guess I could quit showing my stuff to people like you. :) 2017-07-12T12:46:44Z phoe: ;_; 2017-07-12T12:46:47Z phoe: Please don't. 2017-07-12T12:46:56Z beach: Joking! 2017-07-12T12:46:58Z phoe: One part of a definition of a complete protocol that comes to me right now is, a protocol is complete if it does not "waste" information. 2017-07-12T12:47:01Z phoe: I know! So am I. 2017-07-12T12:47:22Z beach: Well, the problem with your definition is that you now have to define "waste". 2017-07-12T12:47:36Z phoe: Unreachable by any other part of the protocol. 2017-07-12T12:47:45Z beach: Yeah, that's a good start. 2017-07-12T12:47:54Z phoe: With operations CONS and CAR, everything that you provide as the second argument to CONS is now unreachable. 2017-07-12T12:47:59Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:48:08Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:48:26Z beach: Better: "does not in any way influence the result of any subsequent operation" 2017-07-12T12:48:35Z phoe: Sounds better, yes. 2017-07-12T12:48:46Z phoe: Because this way, CONS just generates garbage. 2017-07-12T12:48:50Z beach: Yeah, I think you are on the right track. 2017-07-12T12:49:31Z phoe: And here comes the question - how do you actually prove that a protocol P is complete or incomplete? 2017-07-12T12:49:58Z beach: I never ask myself such questions. :) 2017-07-12T12:50:21Z phoe: Geez, welcome into formal logic. 2017-07-12T12:50:36Z phoe: Now that's a pretty tough question for me, too. :P 2017-07-12T12:50:48Z beach: Seriously, proving that is not the point. The point is to give the reader an idea of how to structure software. 2017-07-12T12:51:14Z beach: ... so that he or she avoids putting CDR in a different protocol. 2017-07-12T12:51:39Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:52:12Z phoe: Yes, I see. 2017-07-12T12:53:07Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:57:39Z phoe: So basically - we want to avoid operations that do not contribute to the creation, retrieval, modification or destruction of any data. 2017-07-12T12:58:02Z phoe: Or otherwise do not influence the result of any subsequent operation, as you said. 2017-07-12T12:58:06Z beach: Include "side effects" in that list. 2017-07-12T12:58:24Z phoe: Or producing any side effects. 2017-07-12T12:58:33Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T12:58:50Z phoe: So, a complete protocol is the one that adheres to this. 2017-07-12T12:59:03Z beach: Yeah, it would seem that way. 2017-07-12T12:59:18Z phoe: An incomplete protocol is the contrary. 2017-07-12T12:59:24Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T12:59:57Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:00:39Z beach: I think I can leave out creation, retrieval and destruction. It is enough to say, that if there is an argument of some operation such that no value given to that argument in any way influences the result (i.e, return value or side effect) of that operation or any subsequent operation. 2017-07-12T13:01:06Z beach: then the protocol is incomplete. 2017-07-12T13:01:15Z phoe: I think it's correct. 2017-07-12T13:01:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:01:48Z beach: I should write it down while it is fresh in memory. 2017-07-12T13:01:53Z phoe: It's just that, informally speaking, "creation, retrieval, destruction" feels much more obvious to an average programmer like me. 2017-07-12T13:02:01Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:02:03Z phoe: beach: remember that you also have the IRC logs. :) 2017-07-12T13:02:19Z beach: Yes, but I would have to remember to consult them. It's that bad. :( 2017-07-12T13:02:42Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T13:04:10Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:04:49Z phoe: It's just my opinion here, but I'd like a two-part description with a formal and informal part, such as, "a protocol is complete if there is no argument of some operation such that (...). Informally speaking, a protocol is incomplete if it contains operations that do not contribute to the (...) or have side effects." 2017-07-12T13:05:28Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:07:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:08:39Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:09:04Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:09:30Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:09:49Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:09:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:11:34Z clog joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:11:53Z beach: Yeah, you are probably right. Right now I just want to jot things down so that I won't forget. 2017-07-12T13:12:45Z phoe: beach: no problem, I'll most likely remind you the moment I see next versions of this document later again. 2017-07-12T13:12:56Z beach: That would be good. 2017-07-12T13:15:52Z phoe: Noted. My reminder tool will remind me to remind you. 2017-07-12T13:16:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:16:44Z beach: Amazing. 2017-07-12T13:16:59Z phoe: What a wonderful time to live in. :) 2017-07-12T13:17:12Z beach: Indeed. 2017-07-12T13:17:41Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:21:42Z ksool joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:23:09Z phoe: mop initialize-instance 2017-07-12T13:23:09Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for initialize-instance. 2017-07-12T13:23:39Z phoe: clhs initialize-instance 2017-07-12T13:23:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm 2017-07-12T13:23:43Z Bike: i don't think mop adds any more behavior 2017-07-12T13:24:08Z phoe: Yes, I just was wondering about the define-protocol-class macro that I am using - the one from McCLIM. 2017-07-12T13:24:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:24:53Z phoe: Petty stuff, but https://github.com/antifuchs/mcclim/blob/master/protocol-classes.lisp#L39 - shouldn't this be a :BEFORE method instead of :AFTER method to avoid allocating an instance that will not be returned anyway because of an error? 2017-07-12T13:24:58Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:25:24Z phoe: Or should we adhere to the convention of :AFTER being the conventional way of writing "constructors"? 2017-07-12T13:25:29Z Bike: allocate-instance is called before initialize-instance is called 2017-07-12T13:25:42Z Bike: you couldn't take class-of something that doesn't exist 2017-07-12T13:25:53Z phoe: Oh wait - I got the order wrong. 2017-07-12T13:26:02Z phoe: So :BEFORE does not change a thing here. 2017-07-12T13:26:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:26:54Z Bike: you could define a method on allocate instance, but honestly why not just let the gc handle it? it's not like it's going to happen very often 2017-07-12T13:26:56Z phoe: So this should be a :BEFORE method of allocate-instance, in order to avoid creating garbage. 2017-07-12T13:27:00Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:27:28Z phoe: Yes, I know, this isn't going to happen often. I'm just training my brain now. 2017-07-12T13:28:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:29:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:30:58Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:33:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:37:37Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T13:38:30Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:40:30Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:44:01Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:45:29Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T13:58:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:00:16Z zwild joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:00:50Z zwild quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T14:03:58Z zwild joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:04:32Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T14:05:42Z zwild quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T14:06:04Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T14:11:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:11:02Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T14:13:44Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:14:28Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:16:37Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:18:10Z phoe: What is the overhead of having a zero-argument generic function? 2017-07-12T14:18:36Z phoe: And therefore, only one possible method that can be called for such a GF? 2017-07-12T14:19:07Z phoe: Compared to a normal function, I mean. 2017-07-12T14:22:51Z Bike: why are you asking 2017-07-12T14:22:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:23:13Z phoe: I don't know if I should (defun foo () ...) or (defgeneric foo () ...) (defmethod foo () ...) 2017-07-12T14:23:18Z Bike: but i imagine most implementations wouldn't bother optimizing, so it would still go through the discriminating function and all 2017-07-12T14:23:32Z Bike: and it wouldn't necessarily be "one method", there's still around and before and stuff 2017-07-12T14:23:37Z phoe: oh - correct 2017-07-12T14:23:37Z ante quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:23:40Z Bike: why would you do (defgeneric foo () ...) 2017-07-12T14:23:56Z phoe: to separate the interface from the implementation 2017-07-12T14:24:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:25:05Z Bike: that's pretty wacky. you could declaim an ftype though. 2017-07-12T14:25:42Z phoe: that's what I do nowadays 2017-07-12T14:26:48Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:26:57Z phoe: but then it looks somewhat weird, when I declare the protocols, all functions that take some arguments are defgenerics 2017-07-12T14:27:11Z phoe: so why bother with some weird defuns in case of no arguments 2017-07-12T14:28:54Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:29:10Z Bike: well, go for it then. 2017-07-12T14:30:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:32:16Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:32:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:32:55Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:35:26Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:36:37Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:39:38Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:48:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:49:22Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T14:51:28Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:52:35Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:53:03Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T14:58:54Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2017-07-12T14:59:54Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T15:00:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:03:23Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:06:57Z zeissoctopus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T15:07:47Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:13:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:14:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:15:55Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:15:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:18:13Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:19:19Z mingus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:22:03Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:24:07Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T15:25:58Z mingus quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-12T15:28:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-12T15:28:29Z mingus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:28:53Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:30:06Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:37:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T15:38:31Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T15:40:18Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T15:40:32Z jibanes joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:40:50Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T15:43:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T15:50:32Z jack_rabbit_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T15:51:32Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:53:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:54:54Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:56:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T15:57:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T15:58:08Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-07-12T16:00:31Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:03:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T16:04:54Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:09:02Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-12T16:12:52Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:13:56Z [X-Scale] joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:17:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:17:05Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T16:17:10Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T16:17:11Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale 2017-07-12T16:17:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:17:36Z nimiux quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-12T16:17:59Z nimiux joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:17:59Z nimiux quit (Changing host) 2017-07-12T16:17:59Z nimiux joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:18:06Z nimiux quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T16:18:22Z Guest16475 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:19:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:19:23Z tfeb quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-12T16:20:32Z Guest16475 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T16:21:29Z nosefouratyou_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T16:21:39Z nimiux_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:22:56Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:23:29Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T16:27:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:28:08Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T16:36:57Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T16:41:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:43:32Z emaczen` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T16:45:30Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:45:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:45:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-12T16:45:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:47:55Z emaczen` quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T16:49:27Z sellout-1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T16:51:44Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:52:30Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:52:47Z ryanwatkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T16:52:56Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:54:33Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:54:50Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:56:57Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:57:22Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T16:57:39Z jpt9 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:00:07Z zchlyg joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:00:53Z diegs_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T17:01:34Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:03:29Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-12T17:04:26Z jpt9 left #lisp 2017-07-12T17:04:40Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T17:04:55Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:06:04Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-12T17:08:27Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:11:16Z cgore joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:14:50Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:15:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:16:19Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T17:16:46Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:18:33Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T17:18:33Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T17:18:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:20:38Z kang0 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:20:48Z kang0: Do I know anyone here? 2017-07-12T17:20:56Z kang0: Return to my Chanel; mentor 2017-07-12T17:21:16Z kang0: Looking for my mentors 2017-07-12T17:21:41Z kang0: What's diff between lisp and elisp 2017-07-12T17:22:14Z kang0: Both of them are related closely with emacs? 2017-07-12T17:22:48Z Bike: elisp is the lisp that's in emacs. lisp itself predates emacs by decades. 2017-07-12T17:22:56Z jackdaniel: this entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language) has all the information you need regarding lisp dialects 2017-07-12T17:23:39Z jackdaniel: paragraph "Major dialects" summarizes the current state of affairs 2017-07-12T17:24:36Z kang0: Ok 2017-07-12T17:24:53Z phoe: kang0: Lisp most commonly refers to Common Lisp, but may also refer to the general family of languages 2017-07-12T17:25:11Z phoe: elisp is Emacs Lisp, the interpreted dialect of Lisp used to program Emacs, the editor 2017-07-12T17:25:21Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T17:25:25Z kang0: Quite confusing to understand 2017-07-12T17:25:46Z phoe: Common Lisp is a language 2017-07-12T17:25:49Z phoe: Emacs Lisp is a language 2017-07-12T17:25:50Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:26:14Z kang0: How both are connected or related 2017-07-12T17:26:18Z phoe: Lisp is an ambiguous term that might refer to a family of languages, to the original LISP language, or nowadays to Common Lisp 2017-07-12T17:26:25Z kang0: Is this channel for common lisp? 2017-07-12T17:26:33Z phoe: Yes, this channel is for Common Lisp 2017-07-12T17:26:43Z random-nick: common lisp and emacs lisp share predecessors 2017-07-12T17:26:55Z phoe: They are related because they share many traits and have very similar syntax, in addition to what random-nick said 2017-07-12T17:27:07Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T17:28:41Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:28:52Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T17:35:59Z shka: kang0: lisp family is rather diverse 2017-07-12T17:36:15Z kang0: Who use it 2017-07-12T17:36:23Z shka: I do 2017-07-12T17:36:25Z shka: :-) 2017-07-12T17:36:46Z kang0: Anyone uses it as replacement of python or c? 2017-07-12T17:37:01Z kang0: How you use it And why 2017-07-12T17:39:21Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:39:23Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-12T17:40:07Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:41:04Z kang0 quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2017-07-12T17:42:05Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:42:06Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-12T17:42:47Z phoe: kang0: I'd answer you, but you just disappeared :( 2017-07-12T17:44:30Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T17:44:43Z diegs_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9-dev) 2017-07-12T17:45:21Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:50:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T17:50:38Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:52:50Z emaczen: can someone give me an example of SBCL executing something from the terminal? I tried: (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/local/bin/brew '("search" "sbcl")) 2017-07-12T17:53:03Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:53:19Z shka: emaczen: don't know how to use sbcl directly 2017-07-12T17:53:20Z shka: BUT 2017-07-12T17:53:20Z emaczen: the repl-output just says # after a second or two 2017-07-12T17:53:32Z shka: it looks find 2017-07-12T17:53:35Z shka: *fine 2017-07-12T17:53:38Z emaczen: I don't see any output in *inferior-lisp* either 2017-07-12T17:53:46Z shka: you won't 2017-07-12T17:53:56Z shka: you will need to ask slime to redirect output 2017-07-12T17:55:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:55:16Z shka: (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) ; show print output in Emacs 2017-07-12T17:56:03Z shka: emaczen: try the above 2017-07-12T17:56:12Z emaczen: shka: it didn't work 2017-07-12T17:56:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T17:56:47Z shka: uh 2017-07-12T17:57:00Z shka: ok, in such case 2017-07-12T17:57:21Z shka: i was using stuff from uiop and it worked like you want 2017-07-12T17:57:32Z shka: give me a second 2017-07-12T17:57:59Z shka: yeah 2017-07-12T17:58:09Z shka: emaczen: try using uiop:run-program 2017-07-12T17:58:27Z shka: at the very least, it returned something on linux 2017-07-12T17:59:12Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:59:13Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-12T17:59:45Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-12T17:59:46Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-12T18:00:17Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:00:18Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-12T18:00:21Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T18:00:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:01:16Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:08:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:08:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:09:37Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-12T18:10:07Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T18:10:08Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:11:49Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-12T18:13:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:15:35Z Ichimusai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:20:14Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T18:20:23Z thetabit: How do I get with-open-file to read all lines? When I use this http://paste.lisp.org/display/350698 I only get the first line 2017-07-12T18:20:56Z shka: thetabit: loop 2017-07-12T18:21:05Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:21:15Z Ichimusai joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:21:17Z Bike: with-open-file just opens the file.read-line is what reads a line, and you only called it once 2017-07-12T18:21:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:25:57Z procl0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:27:22Z thetabit: Okay so, (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line do (something with line)) 2017-07-12T18:27:46Z thetabit: seems to work 2017-07-12T18:29:55Z phoe: emaczen: are you able to use UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM or UIOP:LAUNCH-PROGRAM? 2017-07-12T18:31:40Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:35:57Z andrzejk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:37:38Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:41:00Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:41:41Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:42:40Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T18:44:04Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:44:16Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:45:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:46:09Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T18:48:49Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:50:09Z procl0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T18:50:35Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T18:51:24Z sebboh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T18:51:55Z sebboh joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:53:44Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:54:04Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:56:03Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:56:18Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T18:56:40Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-12T18:58:11Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T19:00:05Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:00:05Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T19:01:13Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:01:53Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:02:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:03:16Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T19:03:27Z jmarcian` joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:05:32Z jmarciano quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:05:38Z jackdaniel: emacsoma`: (uiop:run-program "ls" :output :string) 2017-07-12T19:05:44Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-12T19:06:07Z jackdaniel: emacsoma`: (uiop:run-program "ls" :output *standard-output*) 2017-07-12T19:06:33Z jackdaniel: etc etc, external-program is a saner alternative 2017-07-12T19:07:10Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:09:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:10:04Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T19:11:57Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:13:19Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-12T19:14:41Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:15:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:25:46Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:27:31Z drmeister: With trivial-http:http-get - I should just be able to read the contents of the stream into a string - shouldn't I? 2017-07-12T19:27:32Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/7XWgRFt.png 2017-07-12T19:27:49Z drmeister: The URL works in my browser but when I read the stream I just get end-of-file 2017-07-12T19:28:58Z procl0 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:29:24Z Bike: you got 301 Moved Permanently 2017-07-12T19:29:55Z Bike: the location field tells you where it was moved to 2017-07-12T19:30:05Z Bike: your browser handles this automatically, i guess 2017-07-12T19:31:46Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:31:46Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-12T19:31:46Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:32:22Z __paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:34:05Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-12T19:34:07Z drmeister: I see - I didn't read the header. 2017-07-12T19:34:57Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:35:28Z drmeister: Yes - that's the ticket - thank you. 2017-07-12T19:36:07Z jmarcian` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T19:36:27Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:37:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:37:51Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T19:40:17Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:45:53Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:46:37Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:51:26Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T19:51:56Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:55:25Z drmeister: I think I have everything in place - but still - white screen. 2017-07-12T19:55:28Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:55:28Z drmeister: Grrrr 2017-07-12T19:56:25Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:59:25Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:06:13Z drmeister: Hmmm 2017-07-12T20:06:43Z drmeister: The only way that the 'loaded' slot gets set to T is when responding to a message from the browser. 2017-07-12T20:06:51Z drmeister: I don't handle messages yet. 2017-07-12T20:06:55Z drmeister: Working... 2017-07-12T20:07:14Z drmeister: As in here: https://github.com/drmeister/spy-ipykernel/blob/master/nglview/widget.py#L904 2017-07-12T20:09:27Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T20:12:31Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:15:31Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T20:16:42Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:16:57Z drmeister: custom messages are not making it all the way to the handler. 2017-07-12T20:17:19Z drmeister: The log contains "method custom" from here: https://github.com/clasp-developers/cl-jupyter/blob/chris/src/widget.lisp#L254 2017-07-12T20:17:41Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:18:13Z Bike: think you meant this to be in #clasp 2017-07-12T20:18:15Z drmeister: Whoops -- wrong group for a while 2017-07-12T20:18:16Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-12T20:18:19Z drmeister: Sorry folks. 2017-07-12T20:19:15Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T20:19:59Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:20:37Z trinitr0n is now known as angerTr0n 2017-07-12T20:25:37Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T20:26:34Z Arcaely__ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:26:40Z Arcaely__ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T20:28:32Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T20:39:37Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-12T20:42:02Z juanrgar joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:44:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:45:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T20:47:33Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:48:47Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:53:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T20:57:49Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-12T20:59:46Z andrzejk_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-12T21:01:28Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:04:21Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:06:03Z random_numbers joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:06:13Z random_numbers: How small do ECL executables get? 2017-07-12T21:06:40Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:12:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:13:23Z procl0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T21:16:09Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T21:18:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:18:29Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:19:21Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T21:22:34Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:30:13Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:31:23Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T21:32:22Z juanrgar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:34:25Z oleo: if you optimize for size 2017-07-12T21:34:36Z oleo: pretty close to -Os on C i suppose..... 2017-07-12T21:36:26Z oleo: (declaim (optimize (size 3))) 2017-07-12T21:36:41Z oleo: err s/size/space/ 2017-07-12T21:36:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:37:16Z random_numbers: Ah that's nice. 2017-07-12T21:40:25Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:41:49Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:43:00Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:43:20Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T21:45:54Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2017-07-12T21:47:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:48:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:50:06Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T21:51:15Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:53:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:55:51Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T21:57:27Z cgore quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:01:03Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:12:33Z random_numbers: Found something fun: http://www.ulisp.com/ 2017-07-12T22:12:44Z random_numbers: (Lisp for the Arduino and MSP430) 2017-07-12T22:13:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-12T22:15:33Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:15:55Z jack_rabbit_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:16:37Z sigjuice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:18:46Z akkad: well the binaries are tiny, but they link to libecl 2017-07-12T22:18:53Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T22:19:20Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:19:40Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:22:15Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:22:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:23:05Z foom2 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:25:55Z jack_rabbit_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:26:34Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:28:25Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:31:46Z mfiano_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:12Z BlueRavenGT quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2017-07-12T22:32:12Z tumdum_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:23Z mfiano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:23Z watersoul quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T22:32:27Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:28Z oaao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:29Z mulk__ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:32Z eschatologist quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-12T22:32:32Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 358 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:32:34Z mulk_ quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2017-07-12T22:32:35Z ksool quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:36Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:41Z AntiSpamMeta_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:41Z AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 2017-07-12T22:32:42Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:45Z FakePedro1 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:45Z oaao1 joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:47Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:50Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:32:52Z bitch quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-12T22:32:52Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-12T22:32:52Z tumdum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:53Z FakePedro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:53Z FakePedro1 is now known as FakePedro 2017-07-12T22:33:24Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-12T22:33:34Z random_numbers: I see. 2017-07-12T22:33:52Z bitch joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:33:58Z juanrgar joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:34:30Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:35:03Z azrazalea quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:35:04Z jackdaniel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:06Z ck_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:09Z clamchowder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:09Z kbtr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:10Z gadwin_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:12Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:35:18Z gadwin joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:35:20Z ck_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:35:20Z oaao1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-12T22:35:23Z kbtr joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:35:25Z clamchowder joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:35:32Z froggey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:35Z jack_rabbit_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:35:49Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:36:38Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:37:28Z d4ryus4 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:37:48Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:38:11Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:38:12Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:41:24Z ksool joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:42:00Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-12T22:57:15Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T23:00:57Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:03:00Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-12T23:04:59Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T23:06:02Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:06:47Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-12T23:06:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:07:07Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:07:09Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T23:08:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:10:21Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:15:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:17:57Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:19:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:26:48Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:30:34Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:38:33Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:47:36Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:48:01Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-12T23:55:35Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-12T23:55:43Z juanrgar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T00:06:49Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:07:15Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T00:07:36Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:08:14Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T00:14:11Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:16:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:17:48Z Pollwa` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T00:18:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:21:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-13T00:21:37Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-13T00:23:45Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T00:25:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:27:05Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:28:34Z tetero: Is it fast? (ulisp) 2017-07-13T00:35:06Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:36:31Z trocado quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.1.1) 2017-07-13T00:37:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:37:53Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T00:40:04Z random_numbers: I don't currently have a board to test it at the moment, unfortunately. 2017-07-13T00:40:28Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T00:41:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T00:45:33Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:48:33Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-13T00:52:48Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T00:53:26Z bgg_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:53:42Z bgg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T00:54:22Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:57:18Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-07-13T00:59:11Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T01:00:07Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T01:02:36Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:02:51Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T01:08:09Z Ravana joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:15:14Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T01:16:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:20:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:21:25Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T01:21:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T01:21:56Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:25:17Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T01:28:21Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:33:27Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:36:49Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:40:15Z Ravana quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-13T01:40:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-13T01:41:27Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T01:42:54Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T01:44:25Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:45:34Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:45:37Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:47:39Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T01:49:51Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:50:07Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:50:22Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:52:07Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T01:53:46Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T01:54:23Z Suzuran42 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T01:56:50Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T01:57:40Z Suzuran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T01:57:40Z Suzuran42 is now known as Suzuran 2017-07-13T02:05:54Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:10:06Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:11:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T02:15:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T02:17:19Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:17:31Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:17:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:19:45Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T02:20:38Z aeth: tetero: This is a channel for Common Lisp, often just referred to as Lisp. ##lisp is for the Lisp family of languages. The fastest Lisp you'll find, though, is probably SBCL, a CL implementation. There are also some fast Schemes, but the popular/complete Schemes aren't as fast as those. 2017-07-13T02:21:25Z aeth: It looks like uLisp is very similar to Common Lisp, perhaps even a subset, but it's a subset that doesn't include many things you'd want if you wanted to write very fast CL. This appears to be all of it: http://www.ulisp.com/show?3L 2017-07-13T02:22:03Z |3b| suspects not having things is good if you are writing for arduino :p 2017-07-13T02:22:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T02:22:06Z aeth: (It's not quite a subset because it has a different loop.) 2017-07-13T02:22:20Z aeth: Notably missing are arrays, type declarations, and multiple return values. 2017-07-13T02:22:30Z aeth: And defstruct. 2017-07-13T02:22:45Z aeth: If I wanted a fast CL subset, I'd include all of these. 2017-07-13T02:22:53Z |3b|: not on a system with 2k of ram 2017-07-13T02:23:32Z |3b|: (well, maybe you would, but i'd probably just go straight to memory access instead of full CL arrays) 2017-07-13T02:24:56Z aeth: Oh, I forgot to mention that SBCL is fast at the expense of RAM (64 bit SBCL takes about 100 MB as a minimum on startup). And the style I use generally prioritizes CPU at the expense of RAM, too. 2017-07-13T02:25:07Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T02:25:23Z aeth: But a lot of the principles are in common, and so a slim CL would have many shared features with what you'd want in a fast SBCL or CCL program. 2017-07-13T02:27:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:27:56Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:29:55Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T02:30:37Z |3b|: ulisp looks nicer than the last microcontroller lisp i looked at, may have to consider that next time i think about doing hardware stuff 2017-07-13T02:32:11Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:32:31Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:33:08Z Bike: missing type declarations seems weird. is it not cross compiled? 2017-07-13T02:33:45Z Bike: maybe there just aren't bignums? 2017-07-13T02:35:52Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-13T02:37:07Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T02:37:33Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:37:39Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:38:44Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:40:00Z aeth: Bike: ah, good point 2017-07-13T02:40:39Z Bike: "slim CL" is kind of an oxymoron though 2017-07-13T02:40:47Z aeth: I guess its numbers are just a signed 16 bit integer, and that's it? 2017-07-13T02:40:55Z aeth: I'm guessing this because it says its max is 32767 2017-07-13T02:41:07Z Bike: oh, i missed that 2017-07-13T02:41:19Z aeth: I did, too, until you said it. 2017-07-13T02:41:34Z |3b|: yeah, 16 bit int, symbol or cons seem to be only types 2017-07-13T02:41:48Z aeth: "slim CL" as in, it looks mostly like a subset of CL, instead of being Scheme-style or radically different and just parenthesized. 2017-07-13T02:41:57Z random_numbers: The only one I know of that's cross-compiled is ChickenScheme. Then again I only started looking today. 2017-07-13T02:42:03Z aeth: Some "Lisps" really are just random languages in s-expression form 2017-07-13T02:42:19Z random_numbers: Any other one you'd recommend? (I discount Hy and Clojure. They're interpreted, not compiled.) 2017-07-13T02:42:40Z random_numbers: Fuzzier to say that with Clojure but whatever. 2017-07-13T02:42:54Z aeth: Bike: it looks like it even has funcall, which suggests Lisp-2 2017-07-13T02:43:31Z aeth: On the surface, it looks very CL-style, although it's disappointing that it doesn't have arrays or structs. 2017-07-13T02:43:44Z Bike: clojure isn't compiled? 2017-07-13T02:44:01Z aeth: Bike: I'm guessing random_numbers is talking about AOT native compilation 2017-07-13T02:44:09Z |3b|: from their benchmarks seems to be ~500-1000 times less efficient than sbcl by instruction count 2017-07-13T02:44:33Z random_numbers: aeth: Bike: Yes. I'm disregarding VMs because those aren't quite practical on small SoCs. 2017-07-13T02:44:48Z Bike: i mean, i thought it was compiled to JVMese 2017-07-13T02:44:58Z |3b|: hard to say how much of that is from running heavily recursive but otherwise simple benchmarks 2017-07-13T02:44:59Z random_numbers: It is. It's never truly interpreted. 2017-07-13T02:45:08Z Bike: kay, makes sense. 2017-07-13T02:45:36Z random_numbers: Hy is transformed into Python AST and executed the same as native code so it depends on circumstances. Still all runs on Python VM. 2017-07-13T02:45:38Z Bike: not having arrays is kind of weird. structs would be more difficult since you'd probably want something more like c structs. or at least with typed slots. 2017-07-13T02:45:55Z Bike: if you don't have typed slots a struct is just an array with newtype, who gives a fuck 2017-07-13T02:46:07Z |3b| is more disappointed by lack of macros than structs or arrays :p 2017-07-13T02:46:10Z random_numbers: Being used to Clojure I'd say that if maps aren't too heavy/slow, they can do pretty well in a pinch. 2017-07-13T02:46:28Z Bike: whoa, whoa, no macros 2017-07-13T02:46:30Z Bike: fucked uuuuup 2017-07-13T02:46:48Z aeth: Bike: I use typed slots in my structs in CL, and I assume that they do something in SBCL. 2017-07-13T02:46:53Z Bike: no point then. might as well use a macroassembler 2017-07-13T02:47:02Z Bike: aeth: they do 2017-07-13T02:47:07Z random_numbers: Really? Well. That's kind of a significant change that doesn't make that much sense. It's not as though macros are ever executed at run-time. 2017-07-13T02:48:32Z |3b| also doesn't see memory access anywhere :( 2017-07-13T02:53:11Z bigdaddytank quit (Quit: Peace out!) 2017-07-13T02:54:14Z lanu quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-13T02:54:47Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:55:03Z random_numbers: That's a shame. 2017-07-13T02:55:15Z random_numbers: Are there any Lisps that transpile nicely to C? 2017-07-13T02:55:33Z Quadresce: What does "transpile nicely" mean 2017-07-13T02:55:48Z Quadresce: The abstractions of lisps exceed C a lot 2017-07-13T02:56:19Z random_numbers: Mostly that it does interop properly and compiles. I'm not asking for something that generates legible/maintainable code. 2017-07-13T02:56:42Z Quadresce: ECL for Common Lisp 2017-07-13T02:56:52Z Quadresce: Chicken Scheme for scheme 2017-07-13T02:57:10Z random_numbers: Heard of Chicken, didn't know ECL actually transpiled too. 2017-07-13T02:57:44Z Quadresce: I think MOCL too? 2017-07-13T02:58:09Z random_numbers: Huh. Mobile Lisp. That's nice and def something I'll look up. 2017-07-13T02:58:28Z random_numbers: Commercial though. Shame. 2017-07-13T02:58:53Z Quadresce: It targets commercial platforms. Seems reasonable. 2017-07-13T02:59:07Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-13T02:59:10Z random_numbers: Perhaps, but it means I can't get in. 2017-07-13T02:59:46Z random_numbers: Clojure's a fair bit easier to use on mobile in comparison. 2017-07-13T03:00:17Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:02:55Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T03:06:41Z vtomole: I can't hack clojure cause the arguments for procedures are represented as vectors instead of lists. (square brackets, uh) 2017-07-13T03:07:41Z random_numbers: It has its idiomatics pecularities, yeah. 2017-07-13T03:08:02Z random_numbers: I picked it up as a pretty-looking functional-first language. 2017-07-13T03:10:36Z Quadresce quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:11:07Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:12:02Z vtomole: haha yeah it's cool. Im just petty. 2017-07-13T03:13:27Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-13T03:15:37Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:18:10Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:18:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T03:20:39Z tetero: aeth: Only reason I asked was because someone just mentioned it ;) 2017-07-13T03:21:37Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:21:50Z random_numbers: tetero: Yeah, I found it and wondered what people thought of it and if they'd heard of it. Some people dug into it far more than I expected and found it was somewhat lacking. 2017-07-13T03:22:17Z tetero: Ah 2017-07-13T03:23:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:23:22Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-13T03:29:50Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:30:27Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T03:30:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-13T03:34:51Z akkad: Quadresce: actually for mobile LambdaNative uses gambit and is much more performant than chicken. 2017-07-13T03:51:03Z random_numbers: Having read through some of ECL's docs, I like what they did with the implementation. 2017-07-13T03:51:31Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T03:52:44Z random_numbers: akkad: That's rather neat. 2017-07-13T03:57:38Z random_numbers: LambdaNative is very nice. 2017-07-13T04:02:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:04:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:05:07Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T04:05:41Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:07:09Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T04:07:40Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:12:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:18:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T04:19:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:19:45Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T04:20:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T04:22:55Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:23:12Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:23:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T04:26:49Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-13T04:36:40Z aeth: tetero: sorry, my brain's parser must be broken. I didn't parse the "ulisp" within the URL further up and thought that you were the first mention 2017-07-13T04:41:05Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T04:49:57Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:04:00Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T05:07:03Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:07:07Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:08:33Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-13T05:09:05Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-13T05:09:17Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:12:02Z akkad: gambit is amazingly fast 2017-07-13T05:12:41Z vsync quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T05:13:43Z vsync joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:18:57Z gaz___ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T05:19:00Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:19:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:20:08Z lagagain joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:21:27Z reinuseslisp joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:21:58Z tetero: aeth: np 2017-07-13T05:22:59Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:24:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T05:30:58Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T05:31:29Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:32:45Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T05:33:44Z reinuseslisp: does any library offer a portable way to get cpu threads? 2017-07-13T05:34:19Z reinuseslisp: something like a trivial-cpu 2017-07-13T05:36:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:39:53Z akkad: linux yes. 2017-07-13T05:40:53Z random_numbers: akkad: Gambit-C? 2017-07-13T05:45:27Z akkad: yes. 2017-07-13T05:47:08Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:47:37Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T05:49:37Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T05:53:32Z mfiano_: Am I correct to assume static-vectors works for sbcl on windows? 2017-07-13T05:53:45Z mfiano_: By the way, this is axion on another computer 2017-07-13T06:07:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:10:20Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T06:13:09Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T06:14:21Z ots joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:17:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T06:17:24Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:18:41Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:19:31Z Suzuran42 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:19:49Z Suzuran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:19:49Z Suzuran42 is now known as Suzuran 2017-07-13T06:20:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:22:26Z shka: reinuseslisp: system threads\ 2017-07-13T06:22:45Z shka: reinuseslisp: https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ 2017-07-13T06:24:03Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:24:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:25:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:26:07Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:26:10Z reinuseslisp: shka: bt is for (logical?) threads, I mean something like unix's sysconf(_SC_NPROCESSORS_ONLN) 2017-07-13T06:26:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:26:38Z reinuseslisp: or C++'s std::thread::hardware_concurrency() 2017-07-13T06:27:43Z andrzejk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:29:14Z shka: rigth 2017-07-13T06:29:20Z shka: never cared about it 2017-07-13T06:30:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:30:58Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:37:00Z ots left #lisp 2017-07-13T06:37:39Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:38:35Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:40:32Z jackdaniel: reinuseslisp: bordeaux threads is just a portability layer which maps into threads in common lisp implementation 2017-07-13T06:40:40Z jackdaniel: most implementations use native threads 2017-07-13T06:40:44Z random_numbers quit (Quit: stuff to do...) 2017-07-13T06:41:00Z reinuseslisp: yes, I know that 2017-07-13T06:42:07Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:42:27Z reinuseslisp: I just didn't find a word to differentiate CPU cores/threads and application (bordeaux-) threads 2017-07-13T06:47:28Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:48:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:50:02Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:51:21Z jackdaniel: one way to do that with cffi is 2017-07-13T06:51:26Z jackdaniel: (cffi:defcfun "sysconf" :long (name :int)) 2017-07-13T06:51:32Z jackdaniel: (sysconf 84) 2017-07-13T06:52:15Z jackdaniel: you can define 84 as constant to give it a meaningful name 2017-07-13T06:55:01Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:56:43Z reinuseslisp: jackdaniel: yes, but win32 seems not to offer that API 2017-07-13T06:56:46Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-13T06:56:51Z reinuseslisp: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/150355/programmatically-find-the-number-of-cores-on-a-machine 2017-07-13T06:57:16Z reinuseslisp: #+windows may work 2017-07-13T06:57:37Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T06:59:44Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:01:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:02:20Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:04:07Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:05:45Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:06:09Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:08:10Z reinuseslisp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T07:11:46Z jackdaniel: there are bindings to openmp for CL, if that's not an overkill, you could use that 2017-07-13T07:12:48Z jackdaniel: but I can't find the link, so maybe I'm wrong 2017-07-13T07:12:50Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:13:07Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:15:40Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:15:49Z Suzuran42 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:16:04Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T07:16:10Z Suzuran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:16:10Z Suzuran42 is now known as Suzuran 2017-07-13T07:16:30Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:16:39Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:18:42Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:21:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:26:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:28:20Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:30:35Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:31:13Z ante joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:34:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:35:13Z shiranuidong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:37:55Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:40:17Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:40:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:41:04Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T07:41:29Z k42 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-13T07:44:03Z andrzejk_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-13T07:48:05Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-13T07:50:03Z schweers: does anyone have an idea why `prin1' or `format' with "~S" would emit a linefeed after printing a symbol? It seems to me that this only happens when printing on a socket stream. 2017-07-13T07:53:21Z jackdaniel: they don't: (with-output-to-string (s) (prin1 'a s)) ;-> "A" 2017-07-13T07:53:32Z jackdaniel: it might be return value in REPL what calls terpri 2017-07-13T07:54:16Z schweers: that’s the weird thing: when I output to a string all is well 2017-07-13T07:54:34Z schweers: I could swear that the code in question worked before, I’m really stumped why this happens now 2017-07-13T07:55:22Z schweers: also I’m not doing anything weird with the readtable, at least for this test 2017-07-13T07:56:12Z jackdaniel: some minimal test case to reproduce? 2017-07-13T07:56:29Z schweers: working on it 2017-07-13T07:59:26Z jdz: Printing has nothing to do with readtables. 2017-07-13T08:00:11Z schweers: damn, on the minimal test all is well 2017-07-13T08:00:26Z schweers: jdz: readtable-case has influence on how symbols are printed 2017-07-13T08:01:12Z jdz: True that. But in this case I suspect the problem is in pretty-printing. 2017-07-13T08:01:49Z schweers: well, I have to change the readtable-case as I’m interacting with a scheme, but that’s disabled for now 2017-07-13T08:02:36Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T08:02:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:03:59Z schweers: wait, pp should not be turned on, that’s why I’m using prin1 and/or format with "~S" 2017-07-13T08:04:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T08:04:36Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:05:00Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T08:05:24Z schweers: well, I can’t reproduce it outside of my program, which I find quite disconcerting. Oh well, more debugging it is. 2017-07-13T08:05:28Z jdz: PRIN1 only binds *PRINT-ESCAPE* to true, nothing about layout control. 2017-07-13T08:05:48Z schweers: that’s exactly what I too thought. 2017-07-13T08:06:26Z schweers: Well, if no one else has an idea, I suspect it really is a problem with some other code I’ve written, i.e. the problem is not me misunderstanding `prin1' 2017-07-13T08:07:15Z jdz: Have you tried binding *PRINT-PRETTY* to NIL? 2017-07-13T08:07:20Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-13T08:08:10Z schweers: no, I’l try it 2017-07-13T08:08:29Z schweers: ahhh, thank you so much, that did it! 2017-07-13T08:08:56Z schweers: somehow that possibility completely escaped me 2017-07-13T08:10:04Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T08:10:05Z jackdaniel: (setf *print-ugly* t) ;) 2017-07-13T08:10:23Z schweers: hehe 2017-07-13T08:10:40Z schweers: pff, my expressions should be pretty enough ;) 2017-07-13T08:11:47Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:16:01Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T08:19:43Z ioa joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:21:05Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T08:22:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:22:33Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:22:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:26:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T08:27:32Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:31:01Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:33:37Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T08:35:37Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T08:39:56Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:51:55Z lvo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:55:39Z lvo` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T08:59:53Z lvo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T09:00:13Z lvo` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T09:10:27Z schweers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T09:15:04Z nimiux_ is now known as nimiux 2017-07-13T09:15:12Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:17:53Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T09:20:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:20:26Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T09:21:27Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:22:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:23:08Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T09:25:48Z ludston quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T09:26:35Z heurist` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:27:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T09:29:31Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T09:30:13Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:36:36Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:38:38Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-13T09:50:18Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-13T09:59:10Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-13T10:01:48Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T10:03:31Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-13T10:04:20Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-13T10:09:26Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T10:23:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T10:27:14Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-13T10:27:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T10:33:06Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T10:39:42Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-13T10:40:44Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T10:41:10Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T10:43:18Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T10:44:13Z lvo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T10:52:52Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:01:21Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:01:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:03:13Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T11:04:34Z phoe: Is there any function that, given a cons and a value, destructively updates that cons in a way similar to PUSH? 2017-07-13T11:05:05Z phoe: Like - I can write it myself, it's simple, but is there anything like that out in the wild already? 2017-07-13T11:07:08Z _death: it depends on the place you give to push 2017-07-13T11:11:50Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T11:12:23Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:12:40Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:14:03Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-13T11:14:13Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:17:39Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T11:18:07Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:18:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:20:12Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:24:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:24:44Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2017-07-13T11:29:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-13T11:29:06Z phoe: Is (defgeneric foo (bar bar bar)) valid? 2017-07-13T11:30:33Z Bike: uh, probably not 2017-07-13T11:30:36Z TMA: phoe: you mean something like (lambda (cons value) (push (cdr cons) (car cons)) (setf (car cons) value)) ? 2017-07-13T11:30:42Z phoe: TMA: yes. 2017-07-13T11:30:47Z phoe: Bike: neither SBCL nor CCL complain about it. 2017-07-13T11:31:12Z Bike: i still say it's weird 2017-07-13T11:31:12Z TMA: clhs defgeneric 2017-07-13T11:31:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defgen.htm 2017-07-13T11:31:33Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:31:41Z Bike: the parameter names in the defgeneric are irrelevant except for debugging, so i can imagine it working and an implementation not bothering ot check 2017-07-13T11:31:44Z Bike: but don't 2017-07-13T11:32:08Z phoe: ECL chokes when I try to DEFMETHOD on that generic function 2017-07-13T11:32:14Z phoe: but SBCL allows this 2017-07-13T11:32:19Z phoe: and the method works 2017-07-13T11:35:11Z TMA: it looks like it might be a problem -- it shall be an generic-function-lambda-list -- which is a lambda-list -- which does not allow for repeated var names 2017-07-13T11:35:33Z phoe: sounds like it's time to file some bugs 2017-07-13T11:36:09Z TMA: phoe: please go ahead :) 2017-07-13T11:38:41Z phoe: jackdaniel: ECL does not complain about such a defgeneric either, ^ 2017-07-13T11:39:18Z Bike: why would you want to do this. don't 2017-07-13T11:39:22Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:40:11Z phoe: I just found a bug in my few months' old code - it produced code like (defgeneric foo (t t t)) by mistake where it should have produced (defgeneric foo (bar baz quux)). 2017-07-13T11:40:16Z phoe: and SBCL did not choke on this. 2017-07-13T11:41:44Z phoe: so the moment someone ran this code on CCL for example, it would blow up. 2017-07-13T11:42:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:43:04Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T11:43:21Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:45:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:46:04Z chens joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:47:12Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T11:47:31Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T11:48:02Z Bike: well, t is additionally a constant 2017-07-13T11:50:37Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-13T11:51:14Z phoe: that too 2017-07-13T11:55:16Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T11:58:25Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T12:00:41Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:03:44Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T12:03:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T12:05:01Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:05:08Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:05:31Z jackdaniel: generic? which generic 2017-07-13T12:06:11Z phoe: jackdaniel: (defgeneric foo (bar bar bar)) 2017-07-13T12:06:31Z phoe: (defgeneric baz (t t t)) 2017-07-13T12:06:35Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T12:07:08Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:07:52Z jackdaniel: please file a bug, though I don't think it's a high-priority issue (if you put t as parameter name you ask for a fail anyway) 2017-07-13T12:17:11Z schweers: jackdaniel: just out of curiosity: what exactly is the bug here? that such a defgeneric does not signal an error? 2017-07-13T12:18:10Z phoe: schweers: yes, it should signal an error. 2017-07-13T12:18:25Z phoe: a) because T is not a valid variable name as it's a constant, b) because there are duplicate parameter names 2017-07-13T12:18:48Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T12:18:55Z schweers: k, that’s what I thought, just wanted to be sure :) 2017-07-13T12:19:20Z phoe: jackdaniel: it's a petty issue, but as I said, it's possible to turn these into real-life compilation bugs 2017-07-13T12:19:57Z schweers: understandable, I’d like to know too if I ever made such a mistake 2017-07-13T12:20:28Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T12:20:31Z schweers: and not like the implementation to silently do the thing I probably meant. Although I think I’d prefer a warning over an error. 2017-07-13T12:20:42Z schweers: but hey, I don’t want to be nit-picking 2017-07-13T12:21:01Z phoe: the specification says this is an error though. 2017-07-13T12:21:15Z schweers: oh, ok 2017-07-13T12:25:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:28:16Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T12:29:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T12:31:37Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:32:28Z mc40 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:34:59Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:37:41Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-13T12:38:10Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T12:41:13Z mc40 quit (Quit: mc40) 2017-07-13T12:43:06Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:43:17Z mc40 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:45:12Z mc40 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T12:45:16Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:45:47Z mc40 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:46:00Z mc40 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T12:47:03Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:53:41Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T12:56:05Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T12:58:48Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:00:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:01:25Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:01:53Z jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T13:02:14Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:02:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:03:13Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:04:05Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:04:48Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:08:54Z damke__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T13:09:09Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:14:05Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:15:11Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:16:58Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:17:03Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:23:56Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:24:31Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-13T13:26:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:26:26Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-13T13:30:12Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:30:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:37:16Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:37:42Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:38:36Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T13:39:52Z hhdave quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T13:40:08Z |3b|: is it actually forbidden to define a function with T as a parameter? T is a valid variable name (it has to be since it names a constant variable), you just aren't allowed to bind it (since it is a constant and in CL package), but binding doesn't happen until you call the function 2017-07-13T13:40:14Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:40:41Z |3b| isn't arguing that anything that complains should stop complaining (even at full warning level), just curious if i missed something in the spec 2017-07-13T13:40:44Z schweers: I guess the reason it is illegal is that it is forbidden to redefine names defined in the standard 2017-07-13T13:41:06Z |3b|: it is forbidden to /bind/ them (and a bunch of other things unrelated to function parameters) 2017-07-13T13:41:10Z schweers: not sure 2017-07-13T13:41:19Z |3b|: but defining a function doesn't bind it 2017-07-13T13:41:21Z beach: schweers: That's not quite true. 2017-07-13T13:41:29Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:41:35Z beach: schweers: standard names can be used as lexical variables. 2017-07-13T13:41:45Z beach: ... including function parameters. 2017-07-13T13:41:46Z |3b|: clhs 11.1.2.1 2017-07-13T13:41:46Z specbot: The COMMON-LISP Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm 2017-07-13T13:41:53Z schweers: beach: ah, so one is only forbidden from /globally/ defining them? 2017-07-13T13:42:13Z |3b| reads it as no local bindings either 2017-07-13T13:42:19Z Bike: locally as well 2017-07-13T13:42:24Z |3b|: clhs 11.1.2.1.2 2017-07-13T13:42:24Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 2017-07-13T13:42:26Z Bike: "binding it as a function", etc 2017-07-13T13:42:29Z |3b|: ^ that one i mean 2017-07-13T13:42:31Z beach: schweers: The rules are a bit complicated. You need to look at the page. 2017-07-13T13:43:18Z Bike: defgeneric doesn't actually establish bindings, and i think it would be reasonable, if very slightly inconvenient, for an implementation to accept (t t t) as a gf lambda list 2017-07-13T13:43:20Z |3b|: ah, you can locally bind the ones that aren't variables 2017-07-13T13:43:37Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:43:53Z |3b| forgot the 'exceptions' page, that exception doesn't apply to T though 2017-07-13T13:46:55Z ante quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:48:02Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-13T13:51:40Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T13:56:59Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T13:57:31Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:00:38Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:00:53Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:00:57Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T14:04:53Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:05:37Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:05:49Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-13T14:05:49Z serviteur quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-13T14:05:58Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:07:24Z serviteur quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T14:07:34Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:11:02Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T14:13:02Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:15:39Z MrMc joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:27:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:31:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T14:34:52Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T14:37:00Z MrMc quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-13T14:37:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:39:40Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T14:41:02Z tapioco quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-13T14:41:23Z lvo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T14:44:41Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:52:28Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T14:54:56Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-13T14:55:39Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:00:24Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:01:46Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T15:02:16Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:07:39Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:08:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:10:03Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2017-07-13T15:10:30Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T15:11:32Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T15:16:57Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:17:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:19:58Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:20:03Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T15:20:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T15:22:44Z diegs_ quit (Quit: erc exploded) 2017-07-13T15:24:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:25:58Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:27:07Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:27:46Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T15:28:37Z tumdum_ is now known as tumdum 2017-07-13T15:28:54Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T15:29:09Z diegs_ is now known as testingaverylong 2017-07-13T15:29:10Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2017-07-13T15:29:10Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:29:20Z testingaverylong is now known as diegs_ 2017-07-13T15:30:07Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:37:13Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T15:41:20Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-13T15:41:25Z kang0 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:41:36Z kang0: Flipkart is open source fully? 2017-07-13T15:41:54Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:43:31Z random_numbers joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:44:22Z jack_rabbit_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T15:44:29Z beach: Do you have reasons to believe it is written in Common Lisp? 2017-07-13T15:45:33Z kang0: May be some part 2017-07-13T15:46:03Z kang0: beach can you explain me about org mode 2017-07-13T15:46:21Z Bike: well, flipkart has a github 2017-07-13T15:46:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T15:46:35Z beach: kang0: No, I can't. And even if could, it would be off topic. 2017-07-13T15:46:37Z kang0: Does it mean it's open source? Bike 2017-07-13T15:46:52Z Bike: at least a dozen languages used, none of which seem to be lisp 2017-07-13T15:47:31Z kang0: Bike can you? 2017-07-13T15:47:34Z Bike: https://github.com/Flipkart/null definitely some oddities 2017-07-13T15:47:36Z Bike: can i what 2017-07-13T15:47:43Z kang0: Org mode 2017-07-13T15:47:52Z kang0: I wish I can replace my excel 2017-07-13T15:47:55Z Bike: why would it be more on topic if i explained it? 2017-07-13T15:48:03Z Bike: there's an #emacs i think, ask them 2017-07-13T15:48:09Z kang0: We can be off channel 2017-07-13T15:48:15Z kang0: Oh thanks for that 2017-07-13T15:48:37Z kang0: Which on topic stuffs you can explain me 2017-07-13T15:48:56Z kang0: What's some oddoties means? 2017-07-13T15:49:09Z kang0: Is that open source? 2017-07-13T15:49:19Z Bike: "some oddities" as in "i think this is weird" 2017-07-13T15:49:29Z kang0: Why 2017-07-13T15:49:39Z Bike: because it's nearly empty? 2017-07-13T15:49:45Z kang0: hmm 2017-07-13T15:49:51Z Bike: anyway, it looks like flipkart has dozens and dozens of forks of things which are mostly open source 2017-07-13T15:49:53Z Bike: but not in lisp 2017-07-13T15:49:56Z diegs_ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50)) 2017-07-13T15:50:22Z kang0: https://github.com/Flipkart 2017-07-13T15:50:27Z kang0: I guess it's filled 2017-07-13T15:53:14Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-13T15:54:12Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-13T15:56:53Z kang0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T15:59:29Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T15:59:29Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:01:10Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-13T16:02:27Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:03:08Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:03:08Z gabiruh_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:04:00Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T16:07:05Z nosefouratyou_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:08:14Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:08:46Z kang0 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:08:57Z d4ryus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-13T16:09:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T16:10:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:10:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-13T16:10:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:12:00Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:17:18Z kang0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:18:26Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:19:38Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:20:09Z scottj left #lisp 2017-07-13T16:22:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:23:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T16:26:22Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:32:58Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:36:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:36:59Z ioa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:40:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:41:16Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-13T16:41:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:42:28Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:42:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T16:42:43Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:43:12Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:44:57Z schweers quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-13T16:48:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:50:24Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:52:25Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:55:20Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T16:58:06Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-13T16:58:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:01:02Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:01:02Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-13T17:01:02Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:01:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:02:03Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:04:12Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:05:12Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:12:00Z nosefouratyou_: does anyone know of a small project I could write tests for? I want to practice using testing in cl. 2017-07-13T17:12:48Z malice: nosefouratyou_: any tests framework? 2017-07-13T17:13:12Z nosefouratyou_: I'd be happy to use whichever one someone else prefers 2017-07-13T17:13:25Z nosefouratyou_: I just want to learn about testing in cl 2017-07-13T17:13:43Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T17:14:45Z oleo: there are many 2017-07-13T17:15:05Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:15:56Z oleo: http://www.cliki.net/test%20framework 2017-07-13T17:16:31Z shka: nosefouratyou_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures 2017-07-13T17:16:50Z shka: there are tests, but not really unit tests 2017-07-13T17:16:55Z malice: Yes, cl-data-structures is one thing that you could test 2017-07-13T17:16:59Z malice: shka: how about cl-lore? 2017-07-13T17:17:24Z shka: it needs tests, but right now i'm refactoring it 2017-07-13T17:17:26Z malice: nosefouratyou_: and if you want to start *really* small, you can add tests to cl-sandbox: https://github.com/MatthewRock/cl-sandbox/ 2017-07-13T17:17:35Z malice: at the end of the test file there's a todo note 2017-07-13T17:17:40Z oleo: stefil, rt and lisp-unit are the known ones to me actually (i mean not in depth) 2017-07-13T17:17:43Z shka: besides, there are no docstrings 2017-07-13T17:17:53Z nosefouratyou_: malice: I am definitely looking for something small to start with, thank you for that suggestion 2017-07-13T17:18:11Z shka: in cl-data-structure expected behavior is documented 2017-07-13T17:18:19Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-13T17:18:20Z shka: so that's nice 2017-07-13T17:18:25Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:18:37Z oleo: and fiveam 2017-07-13T17:18:38Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-13T17:19:01Z shka: i like prove 2017-07-13T17:21:53Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:23:30Z nosefouratyou_: prove looks awesome! I really like the fact that it has colorized output, sort of like npm stuff 2017-07-13T17:24:04Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:26:30Z nosefouratyou_: is there a way in helm to make backspace delete the word instead of individual characters? 2017-07-13T17:26:38Z nosefouratyou_: sorry, wrong channel 2017-07-13T17:26:50Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:27:24Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:29:08Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:29:18Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:31:23Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:33:18Z kang0 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:35:42Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:38:17Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T17:41:55Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:43:20Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T17:50:58Z pils_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:56:13Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:56:40Z AJavaIdiot joined #lisp 2017-07-13T17:58:25Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T17:58:51Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:03:28Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:07:55Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T18:08:07Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:08:23Z kang0: What's fpga 2017-07-13T18:08:52Z shka: kang0: programmable gate array 2017-07-13T18:08:59Z shka: you can put soft chip on it 2017-07-13T18:09:02Z kang0: Is it hardware? 2017-07-13T18:09:05Z shka: yes 2017-07-13T18:09:15Z shka: electronic hardware to be exact 2017-07-13T18:09:15Z kang0: This article says 2017-07-13T18:09:21Z kang0: It's intermediate 2017-07-13T18:09:23Z kang0: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-hardware-designs.en.html 2017-07-13T18:09:26Z kang0: How 2017-07-13T18:09:37Z kang0: Can you simplify More 2017-07-13T18:09:54Z shka: well, i can explain their logic 2017-07-13T18:10:01Z kang0: Sure 2017-07-13T18:10:06Z kang0: Go ahead 2017-07-13T18:10:09Z kang0: Have you used it 2017-07-13T18:10:10Z shka: so, as i said FPGA is programmable gate array 2017-07-13T18:11:39Z edgar-rft: ...like this: 2017-07-13T18:14:36Z Bike: kang0: this isn't a general channel. you can get better help for a lot of questions elsewhere. 2017-07-13T18:15:00Z malice: kang0: is this related to Lisp? 2017-07-13T18:15:14Z kang0: Oh you are back 2017-07-13T18:15:20Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T18:15:20Z kang0: Salute malice 2017-07-13T18:15:25Z kang0: Welcome back 2017-07-13T18:15:36Z kang0: Good news 2017-07-13T18:15:37Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:15:37Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-13T18:15:37Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:15:49Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:15:52Z edgar-rft: AFAIK there had been several attempts to implement Lisp Machines in FPGAs 2017-07-13T18:16:15Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:16:32Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-13T18:16:33Z malice: hi kang0 2017-07-13T18:16:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T18:16:43Z kang0: Where's your memory?and promises? malice 2017-07-13T18:16:54Z kang0: (kang0) Welcome back 2017-07-13T18:16:55Z malice: yeah, I could use more RAM 2017-07-13T18:17:17Z kang0: Great 2017-07-13T18:17:23Z kang0: Use ddr4 instead of 3 2017-07-13T18:20:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:20:37Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:20:58Z WhiskyRyan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:22:17Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:22:22Z leo_song joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:23:19Z Guest24 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:23:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:27:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:30:55Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:32:50Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:34:14Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T18:35:27Z random-nick: is there a common lisp for the JVM? 2017-07-13T18:35:55Z vtomole: abcl 2017-07-13T18:37:04Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T18:37:13Z shka: btw 2017-07-13T18:37:35Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:37:52Z shka: does anybody knows why the heck armed bear common lisp was called armed bear common lisp? 2017-07-13T18:38:27Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:39:12Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:40:54Z malice: maybe jackdaniel knows? 2017-07-13T18:41:40Z Bike: it's pretty hard to disarm a bear 2017-07-13T18:41:52Z shka: on the other hand 2017-07-13T18:42:19Z shka: bears don't need to be armed 2017-07-13T18:42:21Z Bike: well, it has a "bear arms" joke 2017-07-13T18:42:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:42:48Z shka: uh ok 2017-07-13T18:43:06Z shka: i will just accept ABCL as awesome, albeit crazy, name 2017-07-13T18:43:39Z jackdaniel: why would I? ask easye 2017-07-13T18:43:58Z shka: jackdaniel: because you seem to know everything 2017-07-13T18:43:59Z jackdaniel: at first it was Armed Bear Lisp, as a small Lisp for J editor I think 2017-07-13T18:44:13Z malice: jackdaniel: I remember that you had some nice image about various implementations and thought that you had some knowledge about them 2017-07-13T18:44:13Z jackdaniel: old website shows a quote, which indicates it was a pun: " The right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed! " 2017-07-13T18:44:17Z malice: sorry if I was wrong. 2017-07-13T18:44:47Z jackdaniel: yes, I had a diagram, but I don't know why armed bear, I only suspect that it was the abovementioned pun 2017-07-13T18:45:02Z jackdaniel: shka: right, that explains it. and yes, I do ;-) 2017-07-13T18:45:10Z shka: yeah, and we should drop armed bears on parachutes 2017-07-13T18:45:31Z shka: the most fearsome force ever 2017-07-13T18:45:55Z jackdaniel: here it is: http://armedbear-j.sourceforge.net/ 2017-07-13T18:46:11Z shka: the only person that knows more is p_l 2017-07-13T18:46:38Z shka: p_l is so omniscient that if there would be two omniscients, he would be both 2017-07-13T18:46:57Z p_l: ... ummm nope 2017-07-13T18:47:15Z p_l: I've met people who know so vastly more than me, especially in lisp community 2017-07-13T18:47:51Z shka: ok 2017-07-13T18:48:16Z shka: well, i never met anyone that is more kin on computer history 2017-07-13T18:48:29Z shka: and that's awesome 2017-07-13T18:50:18Z rumble joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:50:31Z jackdaniel: to jest stosunkowo nowa rzecz 2017-07-13T18:50:54Z shka: jackdaniel: oops 2017-07-13T18:50:59Z shka: check channel :-) 2017-07-13T18:51:12Z jackdaniel: right 2017-07-13T18:51:16Z jackdaniel: thx 2017-07-13T18:53:10Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T18:54:43Z edgar-rft: maybe armed bear has a friend named legged bear 2017-07-13T18:57:22Z python476 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T18:57:40Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:58:25Z AJavaIdiot quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0.1/20170628075643]) 2017-07-13T18:59:13Z grumble quit (Ping timeout: 620 seconds) 2017-07-13T18:59:27Z rumble is now known as grumble 2017-07-13T19:00:00Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:01:14Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T19:04:06Z phoe: edgar-rft: that was a really bad pun 2017-07-13T19:04:23Z phoe: but I bet legged bear runs on the CLR 2017-07-13T19:05:37Z vtomole: edgar-rft: lmao 2017-07-13T19:05:50Z p_l: phoe: some commercial lisping has been done on ABCL running through IKVM on .NET 2017-07-13T19:06:24Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T19:06:30Z jackdaniel: afaik interepreter run on CLR in one of the forks 2017-07-13T19:06:46Z jackdaniel: maybe that's what p_l is saying 2017-07-13T19:07:19Z p_l: jackdaniel: IKVM allowed one to run complete ABCL 2017-07-13T19:07:33Z phoe: p_l: I know that ABCL ran on IKVM, but I had no idea that it was used for commercial purposes 2017-07-13T19:08:37Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:08:42Z p_l: I have a... view into certain project at one multinational. With the quality of source, rewriting in Lisp would probably fly unnoticed... 2017-07-13T19:10:08Z p_l: tl;dr version is that quite often companies don't care what language is used so long as it's on supported platform 2017-07-13T19:10:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:11:20Z phoe: so ABCL is a pretty good choice with all the JBosses around 2017-07-13T19:11:49Z p_l: yes 2017-07-13T19:11:57Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:12:59Z p_l: and some of the "important LoB apps" is a) dead simple coding b) nobody looks wt it anyway except poor sods in support. So be your own support 2017-07-13T19:13:37Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:13:43Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:14:42Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T19:16:11Z phoe: LoB? 2017-07-13T19:16:13Z ioa joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:16:22Z phoe: oh, I see 2017-07-13T19:16:27Z p_l: line of business 2017-07-13T19:18:01Z p_l: an app that every month provides reports considered crucial in a certain multinational is some of the worst java code that had been decompiled with original source lost 2017-07-13T19:18:59Z p_l: this is combined with shell script that triggers an oft-failing file transfer tool, which is then processed by MSSQL stored procedures and SSIS packages 2017-07-13T19:19:31Z p_l: it's no competition to lisp except for size of the bidding company for the contract 2017-07-13T19:22:45Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:23:19Z emaczen: how do I "refresh" so that asdf can find new systems? 2017-07-13T19:24:46Z Mandus joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:25:24Z phoe: emaczen: ASDF or QL? 2017-07-13T19:25:41Z phoe: I use QL:REGISTER-LOCAL-PROJECTS - that's why I ask. It seems to work. 2017-07-13T19:26:23Z emaczen: asdf 2017-07-13T19:26:49Z Bike: initialize-source-registry, i th ink 2017-07-13T19:27:05Z jackdaniel: emaczen: maybe (asdf::clear-configuration) ;? 2017-07-13T19:27:07Z emaczen: Thanks Bike 2017-07-13T19:28:07Z Bike: or maybe clear-source-configuration 2017-07-13T19:28:12Z Bike: er, -registry 2017-07-13T19:28:23Z Bike: the manual says it "clears any cache for the search algorithm" 2017-07-13T19:28:55Z emaczen: What you said first, worked immediately 2017-07-13T19:29:23Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:29:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:30:08Z andrzejk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:30:13Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T19:34:44Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:36:23Z Pollwa` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:36:54Z blt joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:40:35Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:41:31Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T19:43:09Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:43:26Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:43:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:46:35Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:52:59Z python47` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:54:31Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-13T19:57:30Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T19:59:06Z Pollwa` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T19:59:22Z Pollwa` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:00:33Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T20:05:11Z stee_3_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:08:22Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T20:09:05Z stee_3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T20:11:00Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:11:06Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2017-07-13T20:11:06Z vhost- joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:11:29Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:11:40Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:14:42Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:15:33Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-13T20:17:55Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T20:20:12Z Guest24 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-13T20:21:51Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:27:03Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-13T20:30:39Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2017-07-13T20:30:56Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:31:32Z procl0 quit (Quit: zzZZzZz) 2017-07-13T20:31:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:33:50Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T20:34:48Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:40:53Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T20:43:49Z diegs_ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50)) 2017-07-13T20:44:11Z aeth: Programs that mostly just interact with a database can be written poorly because the real work is done in the database. 2017-07-13T20:44:50Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:46:38Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T20:48:00Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:48:00Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-13T20:48:00Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:49:57Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T20:50:18Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T20:54:25Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T21:03:14Z ioa left #lisp 2017-07-13T21:06:14Z p_l: aeth: yet the program part had been a source of user frustrations for ages 2017-07-13T21:09:01Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T21:09:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T21:09:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:10:46Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:10:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:16:43Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-13T21:20:04Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:20:34Z edgar-rft: phoe: That was not a pun. It's *always* good to have friends. 2017-07-13T21:22:17Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T21:22:44Z cesdo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:24:41Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T21:26:03Z phoe: edgar-rft: this isn't C++, friends aren't mandatory to write idiomatic code 2017-07-13T21:27:06Z edgar-rft will implement CL++ to get some friends 2017-07-13T21:28:08Z phoe: ...that's going to be a proof that you can't get some friends without getting enemies along the way 2017-07-13T21:38:58Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:39:28Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T21:39:37Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:39:53Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:40:05Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T21:40:28Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T21:41:54Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:45:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:47:48Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T21:52:37Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-13T21:52:54Z andrzejk_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-13T21:56:24Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T21:58:04Z knusbaum quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:03:07Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-13T22:03:32Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:04:17Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T22:04:45Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:05:02Z kajo quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-13T22:05:19Z diegs_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T22:05:34Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:06:40Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:10:08Z aeth: edgar-rft: I think you mean incf-cl 2017-07-13T22:10:14Z aeth: a little less catchy than C++ 2017-07-13T22:10:39Z aeth: more googlable though 2017-07-13T22:11:29Z blt` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:13:00Z blt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:13:29Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:14:12Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T22:14:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:18:09Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:21:44Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:22:27Z diegs_ is now known as erctestlongnickn 2017-07-13T22:22:33Z erctestlongnickn is now known as erctestlongnick 2017-07-13T22:22:46Z erctestlongnick is now known as diegs_ 2017-07-13T22:24:48Z stee_3_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:25:46Z shrdlu68: 1+cl sounds better 2017-07-13T22:26:07Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T22:27:08Z stee_3 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:28:05Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T22:33:34Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-13T22:35:01Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-13T22:35:03Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:36:43Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:36:57Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-13T22:37:53Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:42:26Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T22:43:40Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:45:12Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:46:28Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T22:46:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T22:52:45Z kang0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T22:55:34Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:56:53Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T22:59:09Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-13T22:59:46Z python47` left #lisp 2017-07-13T23:01:34Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:03:18Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T23:03:24Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-13T23:04:52Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:05:49Z jack_rabbit_ joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:13:06Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-13T23:13:14Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-13T23:15:26Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:15:31Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:16:00Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T23:18:47Z Pollwa` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T23:25:44Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:31:13Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-13T23:32:51Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:39:28Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T23:44:36Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-13T23:46:13Z thorondor[m]: hello. do you know if there's a portable way of handling extra initargs in CLOS? 2017-07-13T23:46:34Z thorondor[m]: LispWorks has :extra-initargs class option, but doesn't seem to be supported in other Lisps 2017-07-13T23:46:37Z thorondor[m]: compilers 2017-07-13T23:50:21Z p_l: thorondor[m]: have you checked if closer-mop provides such a thing? 2017-07-13T23:50:40Z thorondor[m]: mm..no. but good idea 2017-07-13T23:50:49Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T23:53:51Z thorondor[m]: I don't see it. And by inspecting SBCL code, it even seems to be fixed at MOP level. 2017-07-13T23:54:05Z thorondor[m]: check-initargs-1 2017-07-13T23:55:13Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T23:56:14Z thorondor[m]: although I see a class-default-initargs 2017-07-13T23:56:23Z thorondor[m]: that could help perhaps 2017-07-13T23:56:27Z p_l: thorondor[m]: new metaclass needed? 2017-07-13T23:56:38Z thorondor[m]: it seems so 2017-07-13T23:56:41Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:57:05Z thorondor[m]: and redefine class-default-initargs perhaps 2017-07-13T23:57:07Z thorondor[m]: not sure 2017-07-13T23:57:18Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:58:11Z ryanwatk` joined #lisp 2017-07-13T23:58:15Z thorondor[m]: but looks possible with a new metaclass, yes 2017-07-13T23:58:35Z ryanwatkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T23:59:59Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:01:40Z Bike: what is this supposed to do? 2017-07-14T00:02:15Z Bike: let make-instance accept more keyword arguments that aren't in the lambda lists or slot initargs? 2017-07-14T00:05:18Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:05:34Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T00:07:44Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:08:39Z thorondor[m]: yes 2017-07-14T00:08:50Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:09:12Z thorondor[m]: I know it is a rare use case, but I have it (it's the first time I feel I want it) 2017-07-14T00:09:53Z jsgrant_ quit (Quit: Peace Peeps. o/ If you need me asap, message me at msg[(at)]jsgrant.io & I'll try to get back to you within 24-36 hours.) 2017-07-14T00:12:25Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T00:12:49Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T00:14:41Z thorondor[m]: mm. I'm not sure I can plug this is. it's not compute-default-initargs 2017-07-14T00:14:57Z Bike: can you not just add them to a method's lambda list? 2017-07-14T00:15:08Z Bike: what are they being used for? part of a &rest list? 2017-07-14T00:15:31Z megalography quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-14T00:15:55Z thorondor[m]: I want to use them on make-instance (initialize-instance) without having to define slots for them 2017-07-14T00:15:59Z thorondor[m]: makes sense? 2017-07-14T00:16:10Z thorondor[m]: I have a padding slot 2017-07-14T00:16:30Z Bike: you can just have initialize instance accept them 2017-07-14T00:16:37Z pils_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T00:16:42Z thorondor[m]: that's what I want 2017-07-14T00:16:51Z thorondor[m]: but check-mi-args complains 2017-07-14T00:16:52Z thorondor[m]: SBCL 2017-07-14T00:16:56Z Bike: like, (defmethod initialize-instance ((object your-class) &key bla bla bla) ...) 2017-07-14T00:17:26Z Bike: well, probably not on the primary method 2017-07-14T00:17:43Z thorondor[m]: ah. wait... 2017-07-14T00:18:01Z thorondor[m]: if it is mentioned in key then it works? (that would be a bit "magical") 2017-07-14T00:18:05Z bradw joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:18:05Z Bike: it ought to 2017-07-14T00:18:09Z thorondor[m]: mentioned as key 2017-07-14T00:18:11Z Bike: clhs 7.1.2 2017-07-14T00:18:11Z specbot: Declaring the Validity of Initialization Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ab.htm 2017-07-14T00:18:13Z thorondor[m]: ohh 2017-07-14T00:18:17Z Bike: second bullet 2017-07-14T00:18:25Z thorondor[m]: ahh. silly me!! 2017-07-14T00:18:27Z thorondor[m]: thanks! 2017-07-14T00:18:41Z thorondor[m]: but I have to try yet 2017-07-14T00:19:33Z bradw is now known as warweasle 2017-07-14T00:19:51Z Bike: (Defclass foo () ()) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance foo) &key testing) (print testing)) (make-instance 'foo :testing 7) => prints 7 2017-07-14T00:19:56Z thorondor[m]: but CL has always been quite incredible in handling my corner cases quite gracefully 2017-07-14T00:19:57Z Bike: for me 2017-07-14T00:20:04Z thorondor[m]: :) 2017-07-14T00:20:10Z Bike: never used that feature before but it was a pain to implement, so i'm glad it works and is useful to you 2017-07-14T00:20:24Z thorondor[m]: it is! 2017-07-14T00:21:17Z thorondor[m]: it works 2017-07-14T00:22:28Z Bike: cool 2017-07-14T00:22:47Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:23:05Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T00:33:11Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:33:38Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-14T00:33:40Z blt` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T00:37:34Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:39:38Z emaczen: I think format can map 123 -> one hundred and twenty three. Is the reverse mapping built-in to commonlisp? 2017-07-14T00:42:10Z Bike: pretty sure it is not 2017-07-14T00:49:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-14T00:52:33Z pjb: emaczen: it is not in CL, but it's in lisppaste. 2017-07-14T00:53:01Z pjb quit (Quit: Good night.) 2017-07-14T00:53:35Z nightfly quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-14T01:02:58Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T01:14:47Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-14T01:23:22Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T01:26:56Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-14T01:28:21Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T01:29:08Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-14T01:45:47Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-07-14T01:48:24Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-14T01:56:44Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:05:05Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T02:10:50Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:12:48Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:15:05Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:15:14Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:17:33Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T02:23:26Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:25:48Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:26:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:45:31Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:45:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:48:33Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-14T02:52:40Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T02:52:42Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T02:53:38Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T02:54:11Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T02:55:43Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:56:59Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:57:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:57:16Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T02:58:25Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-14T02:59:13Z cesdo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T02:59:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:08:26Z kjak_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-14T03:09:19Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:10:41Z kjak_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T03:11:29Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:11:44Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:16:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:20:24Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-14T03:23:20Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T03:25:32Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:28:16Z PuercoPop: Is there a good reason why SBCL doesn't provide the restart to finalize class when one calls class-slots on a class that hasn't been finalized? 2017-07-14T03:29:27Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T03:34:17Z axion: Is there a simple way to split a string delimited by #\Space into a list of strings, without using a library? 2017-07-14T03:34:33Z Bike: PuercoPop: because it might not be possible to, i guess 2017-07-14T03:34:54Z Bike: axion: not if "simple" means a one liner. just use split-sequence 2017-07-14T03:34:59Z axion: Ok 2017-07-14T03:37:08Z axion: Actually looks like I am already using cl-ppcre, so split works. 2017-07-14T03:42:11Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T03:47:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:50:09Z PuercoPop: Bike: it might not be possible to finalize a class? 2017-07-14T03:50:53Z Bike: if it has forward referenced superclasses 2017-07-14T03:51:03Z Bike: if it was always possible there'd be no point to allowunfinalized classes 2017-07-14T03:51:09Z PuercoPop: ahh, you are right 2017-07-14T03:51:57Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:53:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:54:38Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-14T03:55:05Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:56:16Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-14T03:56:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's the best way to split a pathname into a list of directories + the file name? 2017-07-14T03:57:17Z JuanDaugherty: there's more than 1? 2017-07-14T03:57:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. #p"a/b/c/d/e.txt" => '(#p"a/" #"b/" #p"c/" #p"d/" #p"e.txt") 2017-07-14T03:58:15Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T03:58:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: JuanDaugherty: I actually can't find anything "off the shelf", although I've managed to hack something together that sort of works 2017-07-14T03:59:16Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T04:00:35Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:01:36Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T04:01:37Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T04:02:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:03:11Z JuanDaugherty: i was think about the end function, the path name elements and finally the file name 2017-07-14T04:03:18Z JuanDaugherty: *thinking 2017-07-14T04:04:07Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. the end thing which is a split of full path literal) 2017-07-14T04:12:05Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:16:58Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T04:17:30Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:20:31Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T04:21:08Z White_Flame: ugh, my old slime won't build on new sbcl, (*ASSEM-INSTRUCTIONS* not found in SB-ASSEM), and I need old slime to talk to long-running programs without version mismatches 2017-07-14T04:21:34Z White_Flame: guess I need a separate old sbcl to run that, too. And a separate emacs just to be configured for that 2017-07-14T04:23:48Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:23:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:25:14Z White_Flame: I would pay money to have somebody change SLIME such that the emacs side of it downloaded the instance-specific elisp into a closure only for that connection, instead of having a singular full slime client in emacs itself 2017-07-14T04:25:37Z White_Flame: I have no idea on the feasibility of that, though 2017-07-14T04:25:42Z JuanDaugherty: enough to make it worth while, or like a craigslist gig? 2017-07-14T04:25:48Z ots joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:26:07Z White_Flame: maybe the former 2017-07-14T04:26:22Z JuanDaugherty: where some dolt (not you of course) wants to build facebook for $300 2017-07-14T04:26:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:27:30Z JuanDaugherty: so this is an elisp specific thing? I thought you said it was sbcl? 2017-07-14T04:27:44Z SAL9000: SLIME is a two-part system; half in CL, half in Elisp 2017-07-14T04:27:46Z JuanDaugherty: or does elisp mean emacs lisp 2017-07-14T04:27:52Z SAL9000: yes, it does 2017-07-14T04:27:54Z White_Flame: yeah, emacs lisp 2017-07-14T04:28:00Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2017-07-14T04:28:19Z White_Flame: if the swank end of things held a copy of the elisp specific to that swank, all would be swanky 2017-07-14T04:29:00Z White_Flame: with emacs itself just having a shim to launch that downloaded elisp 2017-07-14T04:29:06Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:29:29Z JuanDaugherty: how quickly do you need it done? 2017-07-14T04:29:31Z SAL9000: but what if lisp #1 and lisp #2 require different versions of the shim? 2017-07-14T04:29:38Z White_Flame: heck, actually I guess I could still connect, but I can't build anything with swank at the moment 2017-07-14T04:29:51Z White_Flame: SAL9000: that decision is at swank load time. 2017-07-14T04:30:00Z White_Flame: which stays with the executable 2017-07-14T04:30:25Z White_Flame: I don't know if there are variations for the emacs side of things, but still, the generic code can come along 2017-07-14T04:30:52Z SAL9000: I mean, you're suggesting interposing a shim between SWANK and Emacs, right? 2017-07-14T04:31:02Z SAL9000: this shim will eventually grow to the point of requiring versioning 2017-07-14T04:31:15Z White_Flame: emacs would hold the shim 2017-07-14T04:31:18Z SAL9000: and you're back where you started unless all Lisps that you want to co-host are on the same shim-version 2017-07-14T04:31:38Z White_Flame: I've written many thin launchers, and they stay put, because all the brains are in the downloaded code 2017-07-14T04:32:00Z SAL9000: my point is that eventually you'd need a new API which can't be backwards compatible for one reason or another 2017-07-14T04:32:07Z White_Flame: there is no API 2017-07-14T04:32:17Z White_Flame: there's just "blindly download and execute code blob", fixed in stone 2017-07-14T04:32:27Z White_Flame: any features are inside the downloaded code 2017-07-14T04:32:42Z SAL9000: oh, so you're only loading SWANK once per Emacs run? 2017-07-14T04:32:59Z SAL9000: I thought you wanted to be able to use different SWANK versions concurrently in the one instance of Emacs 2017-07-14T04:33:07Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:33:10Z White_Flame: the idea would be that when you did slime-connect, it would download a copy of emacs-side slime specific to that connection 2017-07-14T04:33:33Z SAL9000: if it blindly executes the code blob it won't be able to evict old-swank when loading new-swank 2017-07-14T04:33:36Z White_Flame: instead of requiring installed emacs-side slime client code to version match the swank-side version 2017-07-14T04:34:02Z White_Flame: that's why the code would have to be contained for that connection only 2017-07-14T04:34:15Z SAL9000: that would require a LOT of elisp hackery 2017-07-14T04:34:17Z SAL9000: elisp doesn't have namespaces 2017-07-14T04:34:28Z White_Flame: but it does have alists and whatnot that it registers stuff in 2017-07-14T04:34:36Z White_Flame: so yeah, there'd be a lot of manual dispatch 2017-07-14T04:34:36Z SAL9000: effectively you'd have to make an elisp VM in elisp 2017-07-14T04:35:11Z SAL9000: certainly possible, but bug-prone 2017-07-14T04:35:11Z White_Flame: I'm certain there are large issues with doing it in the way I envision 2017-07-14T04:35:26Z White_Flame: but it would solve the problem of having long-runnign servers with naturally older versions of swank 2017-07-14T04:36:04Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:36:06Z SAL9000: yes. If you don't care about evicting version 1 of swank to replace it with version 2 of swank -- all in the same Emacs instance -- then blind blob execution seems OK to me. 2017-07-14T04:36:17Z SAL9000: i.o.w. restart Emacs before connecting to a different server version 2017-07-14T04:36:19Z White_Flame: (either that, or bloat the crap out of emacs-side slime, retaining all older versions :-P) 2017-07-14T04:36:45Z White_Flame: but iirc, slime doesn't really version but just rolls new changes as they come 2017-07-14T04:36:52Z SAL9000: well, I imagine that the "proper" way would be to formalise the SLIME/SWANK APIs more 2017-07-14T04:37:06Z SAL9000: then you only need a version of SWANK for each major API version 2017-07-14T04:37:17Z White_Flame: yeah, I'm sure some of the eclipse or whatever packages that connect to swank would appreciate that as well 2017-07-14T04:37:46Z White_Flame: but still, I think you need to s/swank/slime/ in a lot of your statements, if you're understanding me 2017-07-14T04:38:06Z SAL9000: ...yes, I do. 2017-07-14T04:38:11Z White_Flame: :) 2017-07-14T04:38:12Z SAL9000: haven't used CL in a few months. 2017-07-14T04:38:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: In theory you could upgrade swank in-place 2017-07-14T04:38:27Z White_Flame: hmm, true 2017-07-14T04:38:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then have some sort of function to kill and restart the server 2017-07-14T04:38:50Z White_Flame: I can issue .lisp files to be eval'd into the system, but that wouldn't persist a restart 2017-07-14T04:39:02Z SAL9000: yeah, but imagine you have, say, a CubeSat running on CL 2017-07-14T04:39:13Z SAL9000: you don't want to accidentally break your swank by upgrading in-place 2017-07-14T04:39:37Z White_Flame: in any case, this has been a nuisance multiple times, but still a nuisance, not a breaking issue 2017-07-14T04:40:14Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:40:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I wonder if you renamed the swank package to SWANK-OLD (or the like) before loading new swank, if things would be alright 2017-07-14T04:41:06Z rotty joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:41:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: That way you could keep old swank up and running until new swank has been tested 2017-07-14T04:42:33Z White_Flame: I just need the slime & swank versions to match 2017-07-14T04:42:48Z White_Flame: I'm not using any advanced features besides making function calls 2017-07-14T04:43:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I was thinking about the situation where swank was part of some critical infrastructure 2017-07-14T04:43:01Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:43:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is fairly unlikely... 2017-07-14T04:43:15Z White_Flame: (well, and I can't start SBCL locally at the moment, because emacs is pointing at old slime, but whatever) 2017-07-14T04:44:00Z White_Flame: it's certainly a backup debug & un-fubar feature 2017-07-14T04:44:05Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:44:18Z White_Flame: but it hasn't fubar'd in like 7 years 2017-07-14T04:45:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, in theory, renaming the package shouldn't affect the things in the package, unless the package relies on interning symbols in "PACKAGE-NAME" or the like 2017-07-14T04:45:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:46:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, it should be possible to run old and new versions of a package next to each other 2017-07-14T04:46:28Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:46:52Z White_Flame: not while both trying to listen on the default port ;) 2017-07-14T04:47:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but you just have new-swank listen on 4006 2017-07-14T04:48:49Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:48:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:51:01Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:51:17Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:52:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:55:17Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-14T04:55:35Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:58:33Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T04:59:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:00:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:03:13Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:03:36Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:03:46Z BW^-: Hi! A question about Franz Inc. AllegroCache: Is its store automatically garbage collected, or?? 2017-07-14T05:07:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:07:29Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:08:33Z shiranuidong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T05:08:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:10:48Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:11:38Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:12:44Z nullman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:13:27Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:17:30Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:17:31Z Bock quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-14T05:22:15Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:26:10Z loke: BW^-: I don't think many people here have experience with that one. 2017-07-14T05:27:09Z White_Flame: that's their normal object store, not their triple store, right? I believe you manually remove 2017-07-14T05:27:32Z White_Flame: the docs shoud be available online, though 2017-07-14T05:28:43Z White_Flame: "Once the deleted object is garbage collected out of Lisp's memory any future persistent values that are read from the database that contain a reference to the deleted object will have that reference replaced by nil." 2017-07-14T05:29:03Z White_Flame: so certainly smells like no propagation of reference tracking, just deletion of individual objects 2017-07-14T05:29:56Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T05:30:38Z White_Flame: ORMs in general suck, though. Programmatic use of objects is almost never a good mesh with serialization needs 2017-07-14T05:31:18Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-14T05:32:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Allegrocache isn't an ORM 2017-07-14T05:32:14Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:33:36Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:33:41Z White_Flame: it has a lot of similarites 2017-07-14T05:33:46Z White_Flame: but yeah, technically not 2017-07-14T05:33:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: ORMs simulate object databases on top of a relational database 2017-07-14T05:34:04Z White_Flame: or at least, it could be used as an ORM 2017-07-14T05:34:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: AllegroCache is an object database 2017-07-14T05:36:51Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-14T05:36:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the issues with ORMs are that the simulation is a very leaky abstraction 2017-07-14T05:37:44Z White_Flame: and that traversal is not a good fetch model 2017-07-14T05:38:34Z White_Flame: (ie, bring on the memristors already! :) ) 2017-07-14T05:39:13Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:44:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:46:22Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:49:00Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T05:50:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T05:51:04Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:53:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-14T05:55:24Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-14T06:02:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:03:52Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:05:17Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T06:08:01Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T06:11:49Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T06:13:58Z lanu quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-14T06:14:04Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T06:20:10Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T06:21:18Z andrzejk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:21:49Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:21:49Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:23:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T06:23:27Z loke___ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:23:40Z loke___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T06:28:07Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T06:31:46Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T06:32:05Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T06:32:11Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:44:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:47:32Z cyberlard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T06:53:43Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:54:42Z cyberlard quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T06:56:16Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T06:56:43Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:59:13Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:59:31Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T06:59:42Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T06:59:57Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T07:02:38Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T07:02:45Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T07:02:46Z cyberlard quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T07:03:14Z random_numbers quit (Quit: Yeah this is pretty damn hilarious) 2017-07-14T07:05:15Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-14T07:05:43Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T07:06:38Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T07:15:16Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T07:23:06Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T07:27:57Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T07:28:33Z fewspider joined #lisp 2017-07-14T07:31:07Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T07:38:57Z shiranuidong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T07:47:11Z earl-ducaine: I'm revisiting my knowlege of eval-when. My rule-of-thumb is: use it when you have a macro that's dependant on a function that's defined in the same file. Is that a reasonable summary? Any other considerations that should be raised to the level of rule-of-thumb? 2017-07-14T07:47:44Z andrzejk_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-14T07:48:04Z beach: If you have an initial value of a variable that is required at compilation time later in the same file. 2017-07-14T07:49:22Z beach: ... basically for the same reason as for the function definition. 2017-07-14T07:49:32Z earl-ducaine: Ah, yeah. 2017-07-14T07:49:41Z earl-ducaine: thanks! 2017-07-14T07:49:48Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-14T07:50:55Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-14T07:51:07Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-14T07:51:45Z phoe: earl-ducaine: you have (defun foo () 2) (defmacro bar () (foo)) in the same file - this is going to fail, most likely 2017-07-14T07:52:01Z phoe: same stuff with (defvar *foo* 2) (defmacro bar () *foo*) 2017-07-14T07:52:02Z beach: phoe: That's what he said. 2017-07-14T07:52:23Z phoe: beach: yes, correct, I'm just making an example 2017-07-14T07:52:30Z beach: Ah, OK. 2017-07-14T07:52:37Z phoe: (just to make sure that *my* knowledge of EVAL-WHEN is correct ;) 2017-07-14T07:53:14Z earl-ducaine: Oh, and a style question. How bad of form is to always use the full set of situations (:load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute) even one one's not needed... 2017-07-14T07:53:27Z earl-ducaine: (because you're too dim to be 100% sure) 2017-07-14T07:53:35Z p_l: I have yet to see one without all of them, tbh 2017-07-14T07:53:47Z beach: Same here. 2017-07-14T07:54:58Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-14T07:55:18Z ots quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T07:55:56Z phoe: you should not need to use other combinations unless you're meddling with the Lisp compiler or seriously play with how Lisp compiles files in general. 2017-07-14T07:57:00Z OTS joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:01:35Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:02:25Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:04:18Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T08:09:51Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:09:55Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:10:49Z rory joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:11:37Z rory left #lisp 2017-07-14T08:12:33Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:15:40Z cyberlard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T08:17:47Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:17:51Z earl-ducaine: No meddling in the dark arts tonight. Learned my lesson with the pail and broom. Thanks for the help! 2017-07-14T08:17:55Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T08:21:36Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-14T08:22:02Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:29:34Z neoncontrails quit 2017-07-14T08:32:05Z ante joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:33:02Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:34:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:35:11Z OTS quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T08:36:26Z OTS joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:47:50Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T08:49:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:53:01Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T08:55:11Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T08:55:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:04:13Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T09:05:50Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-14T09:40:40Z OTS quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T09:41:27Z closkar joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:42:09Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:42:33Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:43:25Z robbot joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:43:27Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T09:44:01Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T09:44:25Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:46:23Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:50:45Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T09:51:05Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T09:52:12Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T09:52:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:53:23Z Spinfuzor joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:53:48Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:55:55Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T09:56:44Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T09:58:55Z closkar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T09:59:14Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:00:08Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T10:00:19Z closkar joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:01:03Z Guest24 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:05:59Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:06:50Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-14T10:07:04Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:08:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T10:08:15Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T10:08:40Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T10:08:46Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T10:08:52Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:10:34Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-14T10:10:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:12:00Z fewspider quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T10:20:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T10:25:30Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:26:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:26:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:28:40Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:29:06Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-14T10:31:41Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T10:34:48Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:36:16Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:42:27Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:45:02Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-14T10:47:39Z robbot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T10:48:47Z Guest24 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-14T10:49:13Z Arnot quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T10:53:42Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T11:01:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:04:22Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T11:07:06Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T11:10:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:10:57Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:11:49Z procl0 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-14T11:14:14Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T11:15:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T11:19:50Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T11:24:21Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T11:28:08Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:30:10Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:30:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:30:54Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:32:43Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:39:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:39:34Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-14T11:40:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T11:41:53Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T11:42:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:42:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:53:11Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T11:54:56Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T11:58:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:01:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:03:34Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:05:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:06:00Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:06:13Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:06:34Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:08:17Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:08:23Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2017-07-14T12:09:36Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:09:47Z karswell is now known as karswell_ 2017-07-14T12:10:25Z uint joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:11:34Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:12:49Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:13:27Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:14:21Z ante quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-14T12:15:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:15:43Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:16:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:16:28Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:18:22Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:20:39Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T12:22:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:25:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:29:09Z Thetabit_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:30:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:31:16Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:31:36Z Thetabit_: I'm having some trouble with Emacs + Slime + SBCL. I have a fairly bare bones setup because I have to do my development on a windows box. But SBCL keeps crashing and locking Emacs up. I don't experience the crashing in a linux environment so I am wondering if Emacs + SBCL + Slime are the best when working in Windows. What do you guys think? 2017-07-14T12:33:10Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:33:17Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:33:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:34:21Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T12:34:57Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:35:27Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:36:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:36:15Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:37:09Z karswell_ is now known as karswell 2017-07-14T12:37:19Z |3b|: Thetabit_: sbcl+emacs+slime works fine for me on windows 2017-07-14T12:38:19Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T12:38:48Z |3b| uses emacs from msys2/mingw, slime from quicklisp, and sbcl from git 2017-07-14T12:39:51Z Thetabit_: Use I am just using the msi version of emacs 2017-07-14T12:40:03Z Thetabit_: I'll give the mingw a try 2017-07-14T12:40:18Z Thetabit_: thanks 2017-07-14T12:42:59Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T12:43:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:44:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:45:35Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:46:28Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:46:37Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:46:44Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:47:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:50:21Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:51:03Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:52:55Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T12:53:51Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:54:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:56:36Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:57:05Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:58:05Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T12:58:33Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T12:59:30Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:01:11Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:01:55Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:02:15Z tfeb quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T13:04:02Z diegs_ left #lisp 2017-07-14T13:04:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:07:27Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:07:58Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T13:08:40Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:09:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:10:20Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:10:36Z mbrock joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:12:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:13:19Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T13:13:45Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:14:40Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:16:03Z nowhereman quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T13:17:36Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:17:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:21:57Z lagagain_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:22:36Z lagagain_ is now known as lagagain 2017-07-14T13:25:05Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T13:27:24Z Thetabit_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T13:27:30Z thetabit left #lisp 2017-07-14T13:28:03Z thetabit joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:29:32Z thetabit: I'm reading PCL and going thru the function section. I am trying to 'call' each function in a list which using a loop, instead I am looking to (apply #'funcall (list fn1 fn2 fn3)) but this does not seem to work. What am I missing 2017-07-14T13:29:35Z thetabit: ? 2017-07-14T13:29:48Z thetabit: without using a loop* 2017-07-14T13:30:29Z phoe: thetabit: mapcar? 2017-07-14T13:30:41Z phoe: mapc? 2017-07-14T13:30:47Z thetabit: hmm, let me try 2017-07-14T13:30:48Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:30:50Z phoe: wait 2017-07-14T13:31:00Z phoe: (apply #'funcall (list fn1 fn2 fn3)) should work 2017-07-14T13:31:28Z thetabit: let me get a paste of the full source. 2017-07-14T13:31:36Z phoe: (defun fn1 () (print "hello")) (defun fn2 () (print "allo")) (defun fn3 () (print "hola")) (apply #'funcall (list #'fn1 #'fn2 #'fn3)) 2017-07-14T13:32:10Z phoe: oh, wait 2017-07-14T13:32:16Z phoe: yes, I am silly 2017-07-14T13:32:26Z phoe: (mapc #'funcall (list #'fn1 #'fn2 #'fn3)) 2017-07-14T13:32:38Z phoe: if you want the result values, use MAPCAR instead of MAPC 2017-07-14T13:32:59Z thetabit: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350831 2017-07-14T13:33:26Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:33:29Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-14T13:33:33Z phoe: first of all, STX-PROCEDURE has a &REST lambda list 2017-07-14T13:33:44Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:34:01Z phoe: and second, you want to use MAPC instead of APPLY in DEFUN STX-PROCEDURE 2017-07-14T13:34:15Z phoe: and then call (stx-procedure 'stx-procedure-1 ...) 2017-07-14T13:34:27Z thetabit: Oh, &Rest not correct? Is it not necessary? 2017-07-14T13:34:36Z phoe: No no - it can stay 2017-07-14T13:34:51Z phoe: except &rest captures all remaining arguments to a function 2017-07-14T13:35:02Z phoe: like, #'+ has a &rest lambda list 2017-07-14T13:35:09Z phoe: so (+ 1 2) and (+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) works. 2017-07-14T13:35:19Z phoe: but you don't call (+ (list 1 2)) 2017-07-14T13:35:22Z thetabit: Okay 2017-07-14T13:35:34Z phoe: that's why I say the final line of your quote has a redundant call to LIST 2017-07-14T13:36:48Z thetabit: Alright, I will rework it. 2017-07-14T13:36:52Z thetabit: Thanks for the pointers 2017-07-14T13:36:54Z thetabit: :) 2017-07-14T13:37:05Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:37:06Z phoe: have one more 2017-07-14T13:37:23Z glamas quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T13:37:46Z phoe: 0x0000c0ef3b248604 2017-07-14T13:38:16Z phoe: that's a 64-bit pointer, hope it's useful 2017-07-14T13:38:17Z phoe ducks 2017-07-14T13:42:08Z axion: How can I loop over a list of plists with LOOP, and destructure the values of each? 2017-07-14T13:42:42Z phoe: axion: destructure the values of each? what do you mean? 2017-07-14T13:42:59Z axion: like :for (v1 v2 v2) :in ... 2017-07-14T13:43:04Z axion: err v3 for the last 2017-07-14T13:43:08Z phoe: in each plist? 2017-07-14T13:43:13Z axion: yes 2017-07-14T13:43:19Z phoe: (loop for plist in plists do (loop ...)) first and foremost 2017-07-14T13:43:39Z axion: Ok, I was wondering if i neded to nest 2017-07-14T13:43:52Z phoe: and in the inner list, you have a plist, and you want to iterate over a set of plist key/value pairs, correct? 2017-07-14T13:44:05Z phoe: clhs get-properties 2017-07-14T13:44:05Z axion: I know how to do it if it's nested 2017-07-14T13:44:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_pr.htm 2017-07-14T13:44:08Z phoe: this sounds handy 2017-07-14T13:44:28Z phoe: and if you have two layers of iteration, I think you always need to nest with LOOP 2017-07-14T13:45:05Z axion: Ok 2017-07-14T13:47:17Z axion: Hmmm I'm pulling out keys 2017-07-14T13:49:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:52:05Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:52:44Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T13:52:46Z thetabit: phoe, used the mapcar... wow cl is really cool! :D 2017-07-14T13:52:53Z phoe: thetabit: welcome to the CL land :) 2017-07-14T13:53:55Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T13:53:57Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:55:28Z tetero: thetabit: It sure is :-) 2017-07-14T13:57:58Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T13:58:28Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:03:00Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-14T14:03:00Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:05:06Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:07:52Z Spinfuzor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T14:09:45Z mwsb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:09:52Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:09:54Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-14T14:10:37Z rafu-babu joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:10:48Z rafu-babu left #lisp 2017-07-14T14:11:02Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T14:11:50Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T14:16:01Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:17:11Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:21:45Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-14T14:22:30Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T14:35:13Z ryanwatk` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T14:36:22Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:37:11Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T14:46:30Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:47:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T14:51:21Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:51:54Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T14:53:15Z karswell joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:55:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-14T14:56:04Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:08:21Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:08:59Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T15:09:05Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:11:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:15:57Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T15:17:05Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:18:10Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-14T15:21:54Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-14T15:24:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:25:35Z ted_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:25:43Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T15:25:46Z ted_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T15:29:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T15:30:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:31:40Z jack_rabbit_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:33:51Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:33:52Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:37:34Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:39:28Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:40:01Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:41:50Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:44:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:46:00Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:47:09Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:47:33Z circ-user-I8cS7 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:48:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:55:39Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-14T15:58:45Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:05:20Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:08:30Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:08:47Z leo_song joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:09:30Z cyberlard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:13:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:15:41Z lagagain is now known as yhaho 2017-07-14T16:16:24Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:17:32Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:19:16Z circ-user-I8cS7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T16:23:58Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T16:24:19Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:24:46Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T16:27:40Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:29:00Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:29:36Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:30:56Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:31:12Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:31:49Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:33:40Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:34:08Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:37:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:37:17Z random-nickname joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:37:36Z random-nick quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-14T16:37:40Z random-nickname is now known as random-nick 2017-07-14T16:39:57Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:40:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:42:12Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:49:51Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-14T16:50:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:50:13Z slark: Hello, i learnt how to create closures in the gigamonkeys tutorial, but i am not sure how and why to use them. 2017-07-14T16:50:36Z slark: do you have some ideas on where closures are good to be used? 2017-07-14T16:50:52Z beach: slark: Suppose you want, for a given X, find the first element in a list that is greater than X. 2017-07-14T16:51:20Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:51:26Z beach: slark: You could do (defun find-greater (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x)) list)) 2017-07-14T16:51:31Z beach: something like that. 2017-07-14T16:51:44Z beach: Now, (lambda (y) (> x y)) is a closure. 2017-07-14T16:52:06Z beach: er, (lambda (y) (> y x)) 2017-07-14T16:52:12Z slark: beach: indeed i used to use this, but didnt think at all it use the power of closure 2017-07-14T16:52:42Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T16:52:47Z slark: beach: ok i understand :) 2017-07-14T16:52:54Z beach: Good. 2017-07-14T16:53:13Z slark: beach: but i mean you ahve to use closure in this expression 2017-07-14T16:53:27Z slark: you have no choice i think cause it is designed this way ? 2017-07-14T16:53:37Z beach: I am not sure what you are asking. 2017-07-14T16:54:07Z slark: beach: yeah sorry.. i mean when i am designing code, in general, where should i use closure ? 2017-07-14T16:54:11Z beach: Dinner. I'll leave you in the hands of other #lisp participants. 2017-07-14T16:54:39Z slark: beach: nice :) good lunch 2017-07-14T16:54:44Z Bike: you use closures when they help, like in this example 2017-07-14T16:54:51Z Bike: it's not something you need to think too hard about 2017-07-14T16:56:20Z kang0 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:57:11Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:57:36Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:59:27Z nosefouratyou_: wow I completely don't understand (defun find-greater (x list) (find-if (lambda (y) (> y x)) list)) 2017-07-14T16:59:33Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-14T16:59:59Z nosefouratyou_: so (find-greater (5 ('1 9 4 19)) -> 9 2017-07-14T17:00:51Z Bike: find-if finds the first element of list that satisfies the predicate (lambda (y) (> y x)) 2017-07-14T17:01:15Z nosefouratyou_: Bike: right, I get what it does, just not how it does it 2017-07-14T17:01:24Z Bike: you don't get how find-if works? 2017-07-14T17:01:39Z nosefouratyou_: because initially x is a number, but the inner find-if call passes a function as x, right? 2017-07-14T17:01:50Z Bike: what? no. 2017-07-14T17:02:29Z Bike: i don't even know what you're saying, but x is just 5 for you. 2017-07-14T17:02:43Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:03:20Z nosefouratyou_: Bike: my bad, I thought find-greater/find-if were the same function. I was misreading it. 2017-07-14T17:04:30Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:07:36Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:11:10Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:11:21Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:11:27Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:11:56Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:12:48Z slark: ok :) 2017-07-14T17:13:06Z slark: thx 2017-07-14T17:13:33Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:15:18Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:15:25Z slark: in the chapter 6 in gigamonkeys tutorial there is this footnote: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350852 2017-07-14T17:16:52Z slark: what does it mean? does it mean we can use dynamic bindings in multithreaded application without problem ? 2017-07-14T17:17:39Z slark: let say a global variable *stream-output* 2017-07-14T17:17:58Z kang0: Which books in computer science or coding field; one must have /recommended to have in hard copy or printed form instead of ebooks 2017-07-14T17:18:18Z kang0: Suggest me few books 2017-07-14T17:18:23Z kang0: I want to buy few 2017-07-14T17:19:00Z knusbaum: slark: Sure you can use dynamic bindings. 2017-07-14T17:20:31Z slark: knusbaum: so i will not have to mess up with "lock" and kind of stuff if my threads have access to this *stream-output* if i use dynamic bindings ? 2017-07-14T17:20:40Z slark: this is really great 2017-07-14T17:21:03Z knusbaum: That's not quite what I meant. 2017-07-14T17:21:12Z slark: ok 2017-07-14T17:21:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:21:37Z knusbaum: If multiple threads are accessing the same object, you still have to synchronize that access. 2017-07-14T17:21:48Z knusbaum: But that has nothing to do with dynamic binding. 2017-07-14T17:21:48Z slark: ok 2017-07-14T17:22:54Z slark: knusbaum: ok i understand 2017-07-14T17:22:55Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:23:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:23:24Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:23:50Z knusbaum: slark: This is what the footnote was talking about: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350854 2017-07-14T17:23:51Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:23:56Z slark: knusbaum: dynamic binding is kind of global variable shadowing with the same name as the global variable 2017-07-14T17:24:12Z knusbaum: Right. 2017-07-14T17:24:27Z slark: knusbaum: thx for the snipet 2017-07-14T17:25:21Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:25:27Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:25:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:26:05Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:27:16Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:27:19Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:27:59Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:28:08Z slark: knusbaum: ok so the second thread take the variable as global cause the dynamic binding is related to the 1st thread 2017-07-14T17:28:23Z slark: knusbaum: thx :) i fully understand the notes now 2017-07-14T17:28:56Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:31:30Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:32:10Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:32:15Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:39:14Z knusbaum: slark: That's right. 2017-07-14T17:42:09Z tfeb quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-14T17:42:25Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:45:05Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-14T17:48:27Z beach: slark: Dinner, not lunch. But, what Bike said. Closures don't play a great strategic role in Common Lisp. They are used for tactical reasons in situations like I showed. 2017-07-14T17:48:58Z slark: beach: ok, was just asking cause in javascript closures is kind of BIG THING 2017-07-14T17:49:06Z slark: a lot of debate around it 2017-07-14T17:49:11Z beach: slark: Sorry to hear that. 2017-07-14T17:49:12Z Bike: haha, what? 2017-07-14T17:49:23Z beach: kang0: You need to start sticking to the topic of this channel. 2017-07-14T17:49:52Z kang0: Ok beach 2017-07-14T17:49:55Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:51:37Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:52:48Z karswell joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:53:20Z beach: slark: The book SICP (based on Scheme) uses closures strategically, because they allow encapsulation of state. But Common Lisp has CLOS, with its classes and generic functions (which is more flexible and more powerful), so we don't use closures that way. 2017-07-14T17:53:48Z diegs_` joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:54:57Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:54:58Z beach: Anyway, time to go hang out with my (admittedly small) family. 2017-07-14T17:55:13Z knusbaum: o/ 2017-07-14T17:55:17Z slark: beach: thx :) have fun 2017-07-14T17:57:31Z diegs_` quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T17:57:36Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:58:09Z kang0: Which programs or softwares needs to be installed in computer while reading or trying book sicp 2017-07-14T17:59:06Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T17:59:51Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:03:37Z slark: kang0: i use emacs + slime and my lisp is common lisp 2017-07-14T18:04:26Z slark: kang0: but in scip they use scheme, so if you are a bit familliar with lisp in general it should be OK to work with common lisp while reading scip 2017-07-14T18:04:46Z slark: kang0: else it is probably better to install scheme 2017-07-14T18:04:49Z knusbaum: I would stick with scheme. 2017-07-14T18:05:12Z slark: knusbaum: indeed :) 2017-07-14T18:05:57Z Bike: i think racket has a sicp mode. 2017-07-14T18:06:28Z slark: kang0: a text editor and scheme is enough i think 2017-07-14T18:06:59Z kang0: What's slime slark 2017-07-14T18:07:08Z kang0: I have emacs 2017-07-14T18:07:23Z kang0: Not sure whether I have common lisp or not 2017-07-14T18:07:52Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:07:56Z kang0: What's racket Bike 2017-07-14T18:08:15Z kang0: Can you link me scheme for Linux? slark 2017-07-14T18:10:12Z slark: ok 2017-07-14T18:10:16Z slark: i understand 2017-07-14T18:10:21Z slark: kang0 is a bot right ? 2017-07-14T18:11:54Z knusbaum: kang0: http://racket-lang.org/ 2017-07-14T18:12:07Z slark: kang0: all linux distro use great official reposority where you can download everything you want in 1 command line check your distro package documentation 2017-07-14T18:12:45Z slark: kang0: if for some reason your linux distro doesnt provide racket follow knusbaum link 2017-07-14T18:14:40Z MetaHert` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T18:16:32Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T18:16:52Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T18:16:53Z kang0: Racket scheme lisp 2017-07-14T18:17:01Z kang0: Which one to focus? 2017-07-14T18:17:17Z kang0: How to decide? 2017-07-14T18:17:56Z Bike: darts 2017-07-14T18:18:58Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:20:00Z slark: kango, for a solo beginner maybe you should go common lisp (clisp/sbcl) more materials on it, book, tutorial and communauty 2017-07-14T18:20:27Z kang0: Sbcl? 2017-07-14T18:20:51Z slark: kang0: this is a common lisp interpreter as is clisp 2017-07-14T18:21:46Z kang0: Python has pip 2017-07-14T18:21:56Z kang0: Perl has something equivalent 2017-07-14T18:22:10Z kang0: What's such equivalent in lisp and scheme 2017-07-14T18:22:18Z kang0: Is it called collection of modules? 2017-07-14T18:22:23Z Bike: quicklisp. 2017-07-14T18:22:46Z kang0: Cpan for perl I guess 2017-07-14T18:23:23Z knusbaum: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2017-07-14T18:31:11Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:31:35Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T18:31:46Z kang0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T18:33:40Z kang0 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:34:08Z kang0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T18:34:35Z kang0 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:34:56Z kang0: Was disconnected lost the log 2017-07-14T18:38:13Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T18:38:13Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T18:45:31Z kang0 is now known as didn 2017-07-14T18:46:21Z dosh joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:46:21Z didn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T18:47:42Z dosh left #lisp 2017-07-14T18:54:09Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-14T18:54:41Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-14T19:03:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:04:59Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:07:30Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:09:32Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:10:46Z iousiq joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:11:30Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:13:25Z nosefouratyou_: does anyone here use sly? 2017-07-14T19:13:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:13:39Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:15:28Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2017-07-14T19:21:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:22:01Z iousiq left #lisp 2017-07-14T19:22:15Z Ven is now known as Guest69722 2017-07-14T19:23:43Z Guest69722 left #lisp 2017-07-14T19:24:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:24:13Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:30:41Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:32:03Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:34:57Z __paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:48:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:55:11Z Xach: slime is on my "try soon" list 2017-07-14T19:55:13Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T19:56:55Z hzp joined #lisp 2017-07-14T19:59:10Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-14T19:59:23Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:01:08Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:03:09Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:04:04Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:04:19Z phoe: Is there a CFFI type for long double? 2017-07-14T20:04:34Z phoe: Because https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/issues/77#issuecomment-315454280 is what I get. 2017-07-14T20:05:40Z knobo: clhs says that a vector may or may not be simple after delete. But cltl2 says the vector is of same kind. 2017-07-14T20:06:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:06:42Z knobo: Does cltl2 say that if input vector has fill-pointer then result also have one? 2017-07-14T20:06:42Z Bike: cltl2 is obsolete 2017-07-14T20:07:42Z Bike: phoe: manual says it's only supported on SCL, which seems weird but w/e 2017-07-14T20:08:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:09:36Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:09:44Z Xach: sly, rather 2017-07-14T20:12:33Z knobo: So should I bug-report projects that use vector-push-extend on the result of delete? 2017-07-14T20:13:23Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:13:57Z knobo: Because I did. Because I thought it was creating problems for me, but it turns out it does not after all. 2017-07-14T20:14:00Z aeth: If it relies on non-standard behavior in SBCL that could break on other CLs that that project supports, it is a bug. 2017-07-14T20:14:09Z Bike: i think it's a bad idea to rely on the return value being adjustable, but if implementations do actually return an adjustable array then it's kind of low priority. 2017-07-14T20:14:29Z aeth: I limit the amount of CLs that I officially support in my documentation, to limit the amount of bugs that way. 2017-07-14T20:14:35Z knobo: So maybe I should just close the bug report. 2017-07-14T20:15:14Z aeth: If all supported CLs behave like SBCL, there is no bug in my projects. But if projects implicitly spport all CLs and don't, then perhaps the bug is their lack of documentation. 2017-07-14T20:16:18Z aeth: In practice, most large projects don't actually support all CLs already. e.g. if they rely on a library that relies on CFFI 2017-07-14T20:16:45Z aeth: It's just undocumented which ones they don't support. 2017-07-14T20:20:37Z knobo: Anyway, I think that if there is a lot of delete/vector-push-extend maybe a list is more appropriate. 2017-07-14T20:20:56Z knobo: But that is another issue. 2017-07-14T20:21:29Z aeth: I don't think there's enough information to see which one is better with just that description. 2017-07-14T20:21:55Z knobo: aeth: I know. 2017-07-14T20:22:23Z aeth: I personally think that lists are the data structure that always should have to be justified (except in macros, of course, where there's no choice), especially because traditional Lisp culture overly relies on them. 2017-07-14T20:22:30Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:22:53Z Ven is now known as Guest79280 2017-07-14T20:22:58Z aeth: Especially in CL where arrays are so great. 2017-07-14T20:25:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:25:55Z defaultxr quit (Quit: bbl) 2017-07-14T20:27:13Z Guest79280 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:27:55Z Bike: knobo: i'm also not totally sure what the fill pointer would be after delete 2017-07-14T20:29:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:30:43Z procl0 quit (Quit: zZZzzzz) 2017-07-14T20:30:49Z knobo: Arrays are great. But it would be grater if delete would also set the deleted positions to nil or 0 or something approperiate, so that data could be garbage collected 2017-07-14T20:32:11Z knobo: And it would be greater with certainty that adjustable-array-p would be the same after delete. 2017-07-14T20:32:34Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-07-14T20:32:43Z knobo: Then I don't know any other downsides with arrays. 2017-07-14T20:32:59Z knobo: Maybe my first issue here is a bug in sbcl 2017-07-14T20:33:05Z Bike: deleted positions? that's not how delete works 2017-07-14T20:33:11Z Bike: (delete 4 (vector 1 2 3 4 5)) => #(1 2 3 5) 2017-07-14T20:33:39Z knobo: Bike: yes, what I mean, is if you delete 5, fill pointer is just adjusted to -1 2017-07-14T20:33:48Z foom: which is really really really bad 2017-07-14T20:34:00Z foom: if you have objects in there, and care about memory leaks 2017-07-14T20:34:19Z foom: It's really an amazing foot-gun the CL spec put in place there. :) 2017-07-14T20:40:04Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:41:05Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:42:43Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:42:47Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:46:04Z knobo: How to do houskeeping beyond fill-pointer? 2017-07-14T20:46:36Z Bike: aref ignores fill pointers 2017-07-14T20:52:06Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-14T20:54:12Z knobo: So the more I think about arrays vs lists I think I'll go for lists as default then rather use array if I can justify that. 2017-07-14T21:01:55Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:04:14Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T21:04:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:08:14Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:09:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:09:28Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:10:06Z varjagg joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:12:01Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:13:20Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:15:09Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-14T21:17:05Z maarhart quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:17:54Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-14T21:21:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:26:10Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:26:43Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:35:35Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T21:39:47Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T21:39:48Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-14T21:40:00Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:40:18Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:40:57Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:42:14Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:44:32Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:44:48Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T21:45:25Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T21:45:32Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:48:17Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:52:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-14T21:57:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T22:00:02Z shka: foom: you don't actually want to shrink array just after delete 2017-07-14T22:00:24Z foom: shka: yes.... 2017-07-14T22:00:31Z foom: shka: (not sure how that's relevant?) 2017-07-14T22:00:49Z shka: uh 2017-07-14T22:00:50Z shka: sorry 2017-07-14T22:01:04Z shka: foom: i actually wanted to address knobo 2017-07-14T22:01:06Z shka: sorry 2017-07-14T22:01:23Z foom: ah, np. :) 2017-07-14T22:01:28Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T22:01:50Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:02:14Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:02:38Z Ven is now known as Guest24175 2017-07-14T22:06:12Z chens` joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:06:12Z chens quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T22:08:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:21:07Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-14T22:21:15Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:21:38Z shka quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T22:24:57Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T22:26:09Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-14T22:31:14Z tetero: Quick (and likely stupid) question: What's the difference between (in-package :something) and (in-package something)? 2017-07-14T22:35:45Z |3b|: where the symbol is interned (which in practice probably means "not much" unless you modify packages at runtime, with for example IMPORT) 2017-07-14T22:36:49Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:36:49Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T22:36:49Z tetero: |3b|: Oh 2017-07-14T22:37:19Z tetero: I was wondering because they seem to have the same result for me, in what I'm doing, (not doing what you're describing), but I figured that in Common Lisp it's there for a reason 2017-07-14T22:38:10Z |3b|: other options are (in-package #:something) which doesn't intern at all, and (in-package "SOMETHING") which also doesn't intern, but may get confused when people run with non-default readtable case (and/or 'modern mode' lisps) 2017-07-14T22:38:49Z |3b|: IN-PACKAGE is a macro, and the package name isn't evaluated, which is why you don't need to quote the non-keyword symbols 2017-07-14T22:39:55Z |3b|: the package name is a "string designator", which means it can be a string, character (representing a string containing that character), or a symbol (representing the string naming the symbol) 2017-07-14T22:40:22Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T22:40:55Z |3b|: symbols in CL are converted to uppercase by default, so :something, something, and #:something are all symbols named "SOMETHING", so when used as a string designator all designate the same string "SOMETHING" 2017-07-14T22:41:15Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T22:42:40Z |3b|: "designators" are mostly in CL just for convenience, since in most cases you could use a string directly or convert it explicitly. 2017-07-14T22:42:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:43:05Z tetero: Ah, cool 2017-07-14T22:43:51Z |3b|: the various syntax for symbols (keywords, normal symbols and uninterned symbols) are there for reasons, but those reasons mostly unrelated to use of symbols as designators 2017-07-14T22:44:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T22:44:33Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-14T22:45:20Z tetero: Aye. My spontaneous reaction when dealing with Common Lisp is that things are thought through and aren't arbitrary 2017-07-14T22:45:21Z |3b|: if you only use defpackage, and never IMPORT, USE-PACKAGE, etc to modify existing packages, you usually won't notice the problems caused by interning extra symbols 2017-07-14T22:45:46Z tetero: What are those problems? 2017-07-14T22:45:57Z |3b|: (aside from possibly seeing a few extra options when you try to complete symbol names in slime) 2017-07-14T22:48:45Z |3b|: if you IMPORT a symbol into a package, and that package already has a symbol by that name, you will get a conflict. Similarly when using USE-PACKAGE, you will get conflicts if any of the symbols in the used package already exist in the other package 2017-07-14T22:49:49Z tetero: Ah 2017-07-14T22:51:43Z |3b|: and a less serious problem (if at all), is that INTERNing the symbol prevents it from being GCd, so using :foo or foo instead of #:foo potentially wastes a few bytes 2017-07-14T22:52:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-14T22:52:49Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T22:56:40Z tetero: That's good to know, though, thanks |3b| 2017-07-14T22:59:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:01:26Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-14T23:05:52Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-14T23:05:52Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T23:06:26Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:06:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T23:16:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T23:17:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T23:20:08Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:21:38Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T23:23:51Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:26:47Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:28:21Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T23:35:29Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-14T23:35:47Z jack_rabbit_ joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:36:00Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T23:39:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:41:37Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:46:41Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-14T23:48:20Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T23:54:35Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T23:55:43Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-14T23:57:27Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T00:02:39Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T00:03:36Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-15T00:11:14Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2017-07-15T00:12:10Z krwq joined #lisp 2017-07-15T00:15:08Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T00:17:20Z krwq: is there some good example how to use ironclad with aes in cbc mode? i tried simply doing encrypt-in-place and when i pass a plaintext which is shorter than one block it doesn't do anything which suggests that it does something else what i thought it does 2017-07-15T00:19:19Z Guest24175 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T00:21:39Z krwq: i took my current example from http://gihnius.net/2014/09/68-secure-your-cookies-of-hunchentoot-in-common-lisp/ but this is simply wrong 2017-07-15T00:39:25Z jack_rabbit_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-15T00:41:52Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T00:46:34Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T00:52:44Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T00:53:29Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-15T00:54:22Z leo_song joined #lisp 2017-07-15T00:56:42Z leo_song quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T00:57:52Z leo_song joined #lisp 2017-07-15T01:01:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T01:05:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T01:12:59Z ``Erik_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T01:13:38Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T01:47:59Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-15T01:51:33Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T01:52:45Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-07-15T01:53:16Z snits_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T01:58:17Z jasom: krwq: I haven't inspected it for correctness, but https://github.com/Shinmera/crypto-shortcuts wraps ironclad with easier-to-use functions 2017-07-15T01:58:59Z krwq: Thank you jasom! 2017-07-15T02:01:27Z jasom: krwq: note that it defaults to ECB, so you'll almost certainly want to not use the default 2017-07-15T02:10:47Z krwq: how do you xor two numbers? (xor 1 3) => nil 2017-07-15T02:12:12Z krwq: specifically (usigned-byte 8) 2017-07-15T02:13:33Z krwq: ahh, it's logxor 2017-07-15T02:15:11Z krwq: i'm surprised xor doesn't choke both numbers and bitvectors 2017-07-15T02:15:14Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-15T02:15:38Z tumdum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T02:15:59Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-15T02:15:59Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T02:15:59Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-15T02:16:39Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T02:17:17Z Bike: that would be kind of weird coercion even for cl 2017-07-15T02:17:27Z Bike: especially since bit-xor works on bit arrays, not just bit vectors 2017-07-15T02:19:39Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T02:20:16Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T02:21:59Z krwq: Bike - I'm confused with the difference between bit-array and bit-vector 2017-07-15T02:22:27Z Bike: bit array = bit vector and bit non vector arrays, such as a two dimensional array of bits 2017-07-15T02:23:20Z krwq: i see, isn't number a bit vector too? 2017-07-15T02:23:31Z Bike: no, numbers are not vectors 2017-07-15T02:23:53Z krwq: number has a binary representation so i do not understand why not 2017-07-15T02:24:34Z Bike: because a "vector" is a finite linear sequence of objects of type VECTOR that you can access elements of with AREF, and use sequence functions like FIND on 2017-07-15T02:24:55Z Bike: you can treat numbers (actually integers) _sort of like_ vectors, but they're not actually vectors, in lisp terms 2017-07-15T02:25:05Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T02:25:13Z krwq: a literal number is also a finite number of bits 2017-07-15T02:25:18Z krwq: should we add it? 2017-07-15T02:25:26Z Bike: in CL integers actually have an infinite number of bits 2017-07-15T02:25:55Z Bike: (logbitp 398 -7) => T. 2-adic, baby 2017-07-15T02:26:25Z krwq: 2-adic? 2017-07-15T02:26:35Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-adic_number 2017-07-15T02:26:49Z Bike: (not really, since it doesn't even include rationals) 2017-07-15T02:27:23Z krwq: ok, i would forget about negative, they have conventions for bits, but non-negative should be interchangable with bit vectors imo 2017-07-15T02:27:27Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-15T02:28:12Z Bike: non negative integers still have an infinite number of bits 2017-07-15T02:29:27Z krwq: i don't see much value with bitvector type - what do you use that for? 2017-07-15T02:29:38Z Bike: anyway, while it would be kind of nice to have sequence functions and stuff on integers, it opens up a few cans of worms. like, it's nice being able to distinguish vectors from integers in other contexts, and why stick with base two? 2017-07-15T02:29:59Z Bike: i've used bit vectors when i need to avoid consing 2017-07-15T02:30:07Z krwq: because boolean algebra 2017-07-15T02:30:23Z Bike: you can do (bit-xor b1 b2 b3) to do b3 = b1 ^ b2, e.g., whereas (logxor b1 b2) will cons up a result for bignums 2017-07-15T02:30:38Z Bike: but i mean, there's no reason you couldn't use integers as vectors of trits, no? 2017-07-15T02:31:27Z krwq: conceptually true but you can say same thing for strings that they don't have any reason to use particular character set by convention 2017-07-15T02:32:09Z jack_rabbit_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T02:32:19Z krwq: or why is bracket a '(' and not X 2017-07-15T02:32:24Z Bike: well, and they don't. 2017-07-15T02:32:43Z Bike: i mean, lisp has a base character set but it doesn't specify that you use unicode or anything. 2017-07-15T02:33:37Z Bike: i guess as trits a negative integer would have all 2s.... spooky 2017-07-15T02:34:09Z krwq: or it would have + sign, - sign and * sign 2017-07-15T02:34:19Z krwq: whatever * wouold mean 2017-07-15T02:34:56Z Bike: i think all 1s would be -3/2? 2017-07-15T02:35:10Z Bike: or -1/2. yeah... 2017-07-15T02:35:11Z krwq: it's all convention 2017-07-15T02:35:19Z Bike: yeah. 2017-07-15T02:35:25Z Bike: and the convention is numbers aren't vectors. ha ha 2017-07-15T02:35:49Z krwq: but numbers do have bit representation by convention 2017-07-15T02:36:14Z krwq: except lisp 2017-07-15T02:36:26Z Bike: it's not like you can [] address integers in C. 2017-07-15T02:37:08Z Bike: actually if there are languages where you can treat integers as vectors i'm unfamiliar with them. CL's logbitp and stuff seem a bit rare to my limited self 2017-07-15T02:37:13Z krwq: well, you can technically 4[x] 2017-07-15T02:37:32Z Bike: that's just the same as x[4]. 2017-07-15T02:38:21Z krwq: ok, i need to learn more about lisp types 2017-07-15T02:38:25Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-15T02:38:29Z krwq: what's the best source of info for that? 2017-07-15T02:38:43Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean. what kind of things would you like to know? 2017-07-15T02:39:08Z krwq: what kind of types there are, how do you make new types and what can you do with the 2017-07-15T02:40:37Z Bike: mm, well, if you look at the CLHS ToC you can see it's partly organized by types. chapters 7-19 and 21 all describe objects of various types and the interfaces for them (17 is more of an interface, but w/e) 2017-07-15T02:41:37Z krwq: is there some entry level reading? clhs is fairly tough to read before you know a little bit about what you're reading about 2017-07-15T02:41:52Z Bike: minion: pcl 2017-07-15T02:41:57Z Bike: no? oh wel. 2017-07-15T02:42:13Z Bike: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ dunno if you've been recommended it already. 2017-07-15T02:42:37Z krwq: i have skimmed through most of the chapters but do not recall much about types 2017-07-15T02:42:55Z Bike: of PCL, you mean? 2017-07-15T02:43:01Z krwq: yes 2017-07-15T02:43:47Z Bike: well one chapter is called "numbers, characters, and strings" so there's three right there 2017-07-15T02:43:58Z Bike: it's not comprehensive or anything, of course 2017-07-15T02:44:40Z krwq: ive read this one twice but that's not helping much, it covers only really basic types 2017-07-15T02:46:10Z Bike: and the next chapter "Collections" has vectors and hash tables 2017-07-15T02:46:24Z Bike: and that's... really most of it? 2017-07-15T02:46:34Z Bike: i mean, there are a few other distinct data types, but they're not as complicated 2017-07-15T02:47:13Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-15T02:48:51Z krwq: Bike: but then i want to declare type and got no clue what to type because class name does not match the type 2017-07-15T02:49:27Z Bike: okay, i don't know what you mean. 2017-07-15T02:49:37Z Bike: but there are basically two ways to make your own data type: defclass and defstruct 2017-07-15T02:49:42Z Bike: (deftype does something else) 2017-07-15T02:50:27Z krwq: i was thinking about whatever you make when you create deftype 2017-07-15T02:50:41Z krwq: use* 2017-07-15T02:51:28Z Bike: deftype lets you define new names of types, basically. Like, there's a type (unsigned-byte 8) for eight bit integers. You could do (deftype ub8 () '(unsigned-byte 8)) and then use ub8 instead of (unsigned-byte 8) thereon. 2017-07-15T02:51:29Z krwq: defclass and defstruct i think i got grasp on already but the part where you sometimes need to define type (i.e. make-array) is super mysterious to me 2017-07-15T02:51:46Z Bike: So deftype doesn't actually let you, like, lay out data structures. 2017-07-15T02:51:49Z Bike: I'm not sure what you mean. 2017-07-15T02:51:50Z mwsb is now known as chu 2017-07-15T02:52:00Z krwq: im not sure what do you use that for 2017-07-15T02:52:08Z Bike: You're not sure what you use deftype for? 2017-07-15T02:52:14Z krwq: why do you use that as array element type instead of class name 2017-07-15T02:52:26Z Bike: i seriously don't understand. 2017-07-15T02:52:50Z Bike: What is "that"? 2017-07-15T02:52:50Z krwq: if you can't use them for laying ouot binary types then what do you use them for 2017-07-15T02:52:57Z Bike: What is "them"? 2017-07-15T02:53:11Z krwq: those type aliases or whatever this is called 2017-07-15T02:53:43Z Bike: deftype? it's just for convenience, basically. it's not a very important mechanism compared to defclass and defstruct. 2017-07-15T02:54:03Z krwq: defstruct and defclass has pretty straightforward use to me 2017-07-15T02:54:12Z krwq: this other thing is black magic 2017-07-15T02:54:19Z krwq: you somehow get some random name from a class 2017-07-15T02:54:31Z krwq: and then use it in some random places 2017-07-15T02:54:39Z krwq: mainly because someone said you use it this way 2017-07-15T02:55:01Z Bike: okay, okay, what? "some random name from a class"? "some random places"? do you have some concreate examples of what's confusing you, maybe? 2017-07-15T02:55:53Z krwq: in example: (class-of #\c) => # but i somehow am supposed to know that this is the same as 'character 2017-07-15T02:56:28Z krwq: or i dont even know if they are the same or something else 2017-07-15T02:56:30Z |3b|: all class names also name types 2017-07-15T02:56:33Z Bike: names of classes can be used as classes in most contexts. 2017-07-15T02:56:55Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#class_designator 2017-07-15T02:57:07Z |3b|: also, (class-name (class-of #\c)) => CHARACTER 2017-07-15T02:57:56Z krwq: what about: (class-name (class-of 5)) => fixnum - i almost always prefer to use '(unsigned-byte N) 2017-07-15T02:58:07Z |3b|: not all types are classes though, in particular you can define types that just call a function to decide if something is of that type 2017-07-15T02:58:08Z krwq: but just learned that the hard way 2017-07-15T02:58:25Z Bike: (unsigned-byte n) is a type, rather than a class 2017-07-15T02:58:58Z krwq: and that's the black magic im talking about 2017-07-15T02:59:04Z Bike: (so is fixnum, but your implementation offered to give you a fixnum class as well) 2017-07-15T02:59:44Z krwq: is there some picture showing what are relationships between them? 2017-07-15T02:59:55Z |3b|: class-of and type-of are specified that way, they return specific class/type 2017-07-15T03:00:08Z krwq: and perhaps some set of functions to get that data by yourself? 2017-07-15T03:00:10Z Bike: between... classes and types? fixnums and unsigned-byte? 2017-07-15T03:00:15Z krwq: yes 2017-07-15T03:00:35Z krwq: fixnum and unsigned-byte 2017-07-15T03:00:37Z Bike: that wasn't intended to be a yes/no question but okay. you can use subtypep to determine relations between types. 2017-07-15T03:00:39Z |3b|: so 0 and 1 are type BIT, etc. (unsigned-byte N) wouldn't work well, because there are an infinite number of types containing every number 2017-07-15T03:00:45Z Bike: (subtypep '(unsigned-byte 8) 'fixnum) => T T 2017-07-15T03:01:11Z Bike: that means that all objects that are of type (unsigned-byte 8) are also of type fixnum. 2017-07-15T03:01:13Z |3b| assumes you wouldn't want the most specific one, which would be (unsigned-byte 5 5) or something, or maybe (eql 5), neither is much use 2017-07-15T03:01:31Z krwq: ok but how do you get list of all of them to draw the graph 2017-07-15T03:01:37Z Bike: List of all of what? 2017-07-15T03:01:40Z krwq: all types 2017-07-15T03:01:41Z Bike: Types? 2017-07-15T03:01:45Z Bike: There are infinitely many types. 2017-07-15T03:02:03Z |3b|: ask google, and get something like http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ ? 2017-07-15T03:02:09Z Bike: there's no limit on N for (unsigned-byte N), for instance. (I mean, you'll run out of memory at some point) 2017-07-15T03:03:02Z krwq: but is there a way of getting a list in a form like you just wrote (i.e. some placeholder variables or something) 2017-07-15T03:03:06Z krwq: that picture is pretty nice 2017-07-15T03:03:20Z Bike: a list in a form...? i don't follow, sorry 2017-07-15T03:03:25Z |3b|: clhs 4.2.3 2017-07-15T03:03:36Z Bike: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/04_bc.htm 2017-07-15T03:03:39Z Bike: since i already have it open 2017-07-15T03:03:51Z |3b| was about to paste http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 2017-07-15T03:04:01Z Bike: most of them are just class names, though 2017-07-15T03:04:50Z |3b|: 4-3 is the list of ones that can have parameters, 4-4 is ones that have to have parameters 2017-07-15T03:06:21Z |3b|: and if you click the links on the names of types, it lists supertypes/superclasses 2017-07-15T03:07:08Z krwq: ok, need to read this i guess, the language in clhs is hard and i almost always get into recursion once i click any link and start reading that 2017-07-15T03:07:11Z |3b|: (some of which might overlap, like BASE-CHAR is only a type, but it is a subtype of CHARACTER which is also a class) 2017-07-15T03:07:38Z krwq: i need to read or at least skim through this - too much info now :) thank you! 2017-07-15T03:08:07Z Bike: godspeed 2017-07-15T03:13:04Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-07-15T03:13:25Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm#classtypecorrespondence 4-8 has a list of types that are also classes 2017-07-15T03:13:58Z Bike: but no list of types that are not classes. sad 2017-07-15T03:14:12Z Bike: not necessarily* 2017-07-15T03:15:02Z |3b|: well, you can cut and paste and use set-difference to get one :) 2017-07-15T03:25:06Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T03:32:16Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T03:32:41Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-15T03:33:32Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T03:34:35Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T03:40:20Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2017-07-15T03:48:23Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T03:52:47Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-15T04:08:59Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:17:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:20:58Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-15T04:22:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-15T04:24:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:26:45Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T04:27:13Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:28:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:40:36Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:50:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:51:12Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T04:53:00Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:56:57Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T04:57:07Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:58:13Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-15T04:59:58Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-15T05:00:27Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T05:07:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:08:28Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T05:10:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:15:52Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T05:17:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T05:17:25Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:17:43Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:19:54Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:21:23Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:21:43Z pentashift joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:26:37Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-15T05:31:58Z zeissoctopus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T05:32:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:41:52Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:42:04Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T05:42:04Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:47:16Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-15T05:48:04Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:48:33Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T05:49:58Z elderK quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T05:50:19Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:50:25Z elderK quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T05:52:09Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:53:55Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T05:54:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:58:30Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T05:59:05Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-15T05:59:28Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:00:54Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T06:04:34Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-15T06:05:17Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-15T06:08:34Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:08:34Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T06:08:34Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:08:50Z elderK quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T06:10:47Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:12:58Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:13:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T06:15:32Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:23:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T06:23:09Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:23:17Z elderK quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T06:28:14Z jeremiah__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-15T06:32:04Z pentashift left #lisp 2017-07-15T06:36:31Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:36:31Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T06:36:31Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:43:58Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:47:52Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-15T06:48:09Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:48:09Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T06:48:09Z elderK joined #lisp 2017-07-15T06:50:41Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T06:54:09Z elderK: Hey guys, I recently felt like tinkering with Lisp again and did some reading of the CLHS. 2017-07-15T06:54:18Z elderK: I have a question regarding defstruct. 2017-07-15T06:54:37Z elderK: The specs say that it's up to the implementation whether a slot accessor is setfable? 2017-07-15T06:54:51Z elderK: (If the slot option, read-only is set to f or nil.) 2017-07-15T06:55:22Z elderK: Anywho, the reason I ask this is because I've beem reading a ton of CL code lately and no one seems to manually define setf expanders for struct slots. 2017-07-15T06:55:35Z dmh: i dont think i've ever seen it? 2017-07-15T06:55:56Z dmh: that is a good question 2017-07-15T06:56:19Z elderK: So, I was curious as to whether it's pretty much a given these days that the implementation *will* generate setfable slot accessors. 2017-07-15T06:56:43Z elderK: dmh: If you're interested, I can link you to the CLHS page. 2017-07-15T06:56:59Z dmh: sure 2017-07-15T06:58:06Z elderK: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/m_defstr.htm 2017-07-15T06:58:30Z elderK: Search for :read-only X 2017-07-15T06:59:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:00:31Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T07:01:53Z dmh: i see 2017-07-15T07:01:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:02:39Z elderK: It seems to contradict earlier text on that page. 2017-07-15T07:02:59Z dmh: yea im supremely confused 2017-07-15T07:03:03Z elderK: "defstruct defines readers for the slots and arranges for setf to work properly on such reader functions." 2017-07-15T07:03:24Z elderK: dmh: Me too :| 2017-07-15T07:03:42Z elderK: I will check cltl2. Perhaps the CLHS is incorrect? 2017-07-15T07:03:45Z dmh: i might look at ccl later 2017-07-15T07:04:41Z elderK: dmh: I get the feeling this CLHS page was rushed or is kinda... wrong. If you follow the syntax spec for defstruct, you'd think they you can only specify a *single* option for slots. 2017-07-15T07:04:53Z elderK: But then the spec examples show that you can supply many such options. 2017-07-15T07:05:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T07:05:27Z elderK: Well, wrong is perhaps too strong a word to use here. It's certainly unclear. 2017-07-15T07:05:29Z elderK: :) 2017-07-15T07:05:33Z dmh: yea, maybe they just had to cover UB after one way back when 2017-07-15T07:06:21Z elderK: dmh: I'm not even sure how you'd go about implementing a setf for defstruct. I mean, structures are different from objects, right? They're not just some "cut down" version of CLOS classes? 2017-07-15T07:06:30Z elderK: Like, would slot-value work with structures? 2017-07-15T07:06:39Z dmh: i dont know, im fairly new to CLOS 2017-07-15T07:06:48Z elderK: I'm no CL guru - I'm nothing but a novice. But, I can't see HOW you would manually implement a setf for defstruct accessors. 2017-07-15T07:06:51Z dmh: and currently distracting myself with gambit 2017-07-15T07:06:56Z elderK: Gambit's fun :) 2017-07-15T07:07:10Z dmh: im coming into it from racket and didnt expect such a cool repl 2017-07-15T07:07:19Z elderK: s/accessors/readers/ 2017-07-15T07:07:36Z elderK: dmh: I'm constantly flipping between CL and Scheme :P Well, when I'm in the mood for Lispin'. 2017-07-15T07:07:44Z elderK: I love Scheme's consistency. 2017-07-15T07:07:51Z elderK: But I love the standardization of CL. 2017-07-15T07:07:51Z dmh: i end up doign the same, looking at the hyperspec and going 'fuck this' 2017-07-15T07:08:01Z elderK: And the fact that it has CLOS :) 2017-07-15T07:08:12Z dmh: installing something from planet and finishing a project in a day and then not touching either for a month :-) 2017-07-15T07:08:14Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:08:20Z elderK: Hehe. 2017-07-15T07:08:53Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:09:01Z elderK: dmh: I was thinking of writing a simple two-pass assembler for a "example" architecture. It's an excercise in the book "Assemblers and Loaders" by David Salomon. 2017-07-15T07:09:06Z elderK: I figure, I could do it in C/C++, as I do most htings. 2017-07-15T07:09:14Z elderK: But, I really want to get better with CL. 2017-07-15T07:09:16Z elderK: (or Scheme.) 2017-07-15T07:09:25Z dmh: instead of making something up, do it in RISC-V 2017-07-15T07:09:32Z elderK: Then I got annoyed with all the SRFIs you need to import - and the differences between implementations for doing so. 2017-07-15T07:09:34Z dmh: you'll be ahead of the curve man! 2017-07-15T07:09:37Z dmh: yea true 2017-07-15T07:09:57Z elderK: Also, whenever I work in Scheme, I get this weird... OCD :P 2017-07-15T07:10:05Z elderK: Like, I want EVERYTHING to be referentially transparent :P 2017-07-15T07:10:29Z elderK: Which, of course, complicates things a fair bit if you want to make your RT things reasonably efficient. 2017-07-15T07:10:37Z elderK: Like, not just create an entire new copy of some ADT, just, spine it if you can :P 2017-07-15T07:10:58Z dmh: haha 2017-07-15T07:12:22Z elderK: dmh: So, I've also been reading up about CFFI. 2017-07-15T07:12:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:12:46Z elderK: (I figured I'm make a minimal binding for SDL2 and make a simple 2D 'game' where you just move yer dude around the screen. Nothing complex.) 2017-07-15T07:12:53Z elderK: (Just a way to learn how to use CFFI, play around a bit.) 2017-07-15T07:13:08Z elderK: I'm aware lispbuilder-sdl exists. 2017-07-15T07:13:14Z dmh: yea was going to say 2017-07-15T07:13:18Z dmh: i get what you mean tho 2017-07-15T07:13:19Z elderK: But I'd prefer to do a minimal binding myself so to learn CFFI :) 2017-07-15T07:13:28Z dmh: i wanted to CFFI vulkan and do something stupid but lost interest 2017-07-15T07:13:44Z elderK: CFFI seems pretty nice - I played with it a couple years back, the groveller and stuff. 2017-07-15T07:13:50Z elderK: But I never went anywhere with that little project. 2017-07-15T07:13:55Z dmh: i was causing something to greatly fuck up and couldnt figure itout. lost those sources to a like 10 year old SSD pooping out 2017-07-15T07:14:08Z dmh: 80 gb intel ssd :D 2017-07-15T07:14:12Z elderK: :D 2017-07-15T07:14:15Z dmh: but yea 2017-07-15T07:14:21Z dmh: ive not done much useful w/ CL 2017-07-15T07:14:24Z elderK: I have a 512GiB Corsair, m.2 2017-07-15T07:14:35Z elderK: CL and Scheme have been excellent 'tinker timesinks' for me. 2017-07-15T07:14:56Z elderK: I've lost track of how much time I spent creating my own implementation of records and objects and stuff in Scheme. 2017-07-15T07:15:30Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T07:15:43Z elderK: Years and years ago, I was scheming in a big way - reading tons of whitepapers and stuff. But, whenever I tried to do something *real*, like say, write a program to analyze ELF binaries, I just... found it very painful. 2017-07-15T07:16:10Z elderK: I can't talk about CL - as I have no experience with its binary IO stuff - but Scheme's lack of a standardized binary IO mechanism was painful. 2017-07-15T07:16:24Z dmh: yea i have a few new ones now, only one m2 and wowee 2017-07-15T07:16:31Z dmh: hm 2017-07-15T07:16:53Z dmh: what got me, it was tinker/toy/purely experiementation stuff for me too 2017-07-15T07:17:09Z dmh: but i do contracting stuff and inherited something 2017-07-15T07:17:25Z elderK: Wow, really? What'd you inherit? 2017-07-15T07:17:26Z dmh: that was actually a really large web app completely done in CL AND RACKET 2017-07-15T07:17:34Z dmh: i could not fucking believe my eyes 2017-07-15T07:17:35Z elderK: Both? That seems odd? 2017-07-15T07:17:46Z dmh: yea, it was like 20% CL, that appeared to be legacy efforts 2017-07-15T07:17:54Z dmh: but mostly racket 2017-07-15T07:18:02Z dmh: so.. someone out there gets it 2017-07-15T07:18:11Z elderK: I used to play with Racket back when it was called PLT Scheme. I never really liked it much - sure, it had Planet and stuff but... I don't know, it didn't feel like Scheme. 2017-07-15T07:18:28Z elderK: So I migrated to Chicken pretty fast. The fantastic community of #chicken kept me using it :) 2017-07-15T07:18:31Z dmh: i mean now it can do anything, just plop your #lang in 2017-07-15T07:18:43Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:18:48Z dmh: i've never tried chicken. i didnt know what i was doing, compiling to c interest me now that i have a remote cloue tho 2017-07-15T07:18:57Z dmh: clue perhaps. negated myself there 2017-07-15T07:19:13Z elderK: Chicken's pretty nice. 2017-07-15T07:19:19Z elderK: But again, I've never done anything "real" with it. 2017-07-15T07:19:28Z elderK: I'd like to do the same as I intend to do with CL/CFFI with Chicken at a later date. 2017-07-15T07:19:47Z elderK: It's like, damn near ten years ago I was like "I want to learn Lisp and stuff!" 2017-07-15T07:19:55Z elderK: Well, almost ten years later, that hasn't been achieved. 2017-07-15T07:19:59Z elderK: Life got in the way. 2017-07-15T07:20:02Z elderK: :P So, I'm turning thirty this year. 2017-07-15T07:20:03Z dmh: yea i know that very well 2017-07-15T07:20:08Z dmh: i am 30 2017-07-15T07:20:12Z elderK: I want to be proficient in Lisp by the time I'm 35. 2017-07-15T07:20:14Z dmh: very similar curve 2017-07-15T07:20:14Z elderK: :P 2017-07-15T07:20:30Z dmh: you can read `beating the averages` only so many times 2017-07-15T07:20:38Z elderK: It's sad, really. Like, at my last job, I would tell interested friends about CL, Scheme, Standard ML, etc. 2017-07-15T07:20:48Z elderK: And I'd be actively antagonized about it by my boss. 2017-07-15T07:20:52Z elderK: That was a shit place, toxic 2017-07-15T07:21:08Z dmh: been there 2017-07-15T07:21:19Z dmh: i was seen as a guru after doing 'tail -f' on logs and shit 2017-07-15T07:21:33Z elderK: At University now, working on getting a Bachelor of Science in CS and Mathematics. I got reasonably far in the industry here in NZ, I guess, without a degree. But, not having a degree introduced all kinds of "human" factors that made life kinda uncomfortable. 2017-07-15T07:21:41Z elderK: dmh: Haha. 2017-07-15T07:21:59Z dmh: yea that stinks 2017-07-15T07:22:07Z elderK: It's kind of depressing, tbh. I used to believe you needed to be *great* at programming and stuff to get a job. 2017-07-15T07:22:14Z elderK: I learned that is not the truth. 2017-07-15T07:22:17Z dmh: complete opposite 2017-07-15T07:22:45Z elderK: The majority of programmers at the company - who possessed degrees - didn't even remember when they should use what data structures, everything was just a linked list. 2017-07-15T07:22:53Z elderK: Methods that were tensive thousanads of lines long. 2017-07-15T07:23:43Z elderK: Anyway. So here I am, damn near 30, back at school. To hopefully make landing a job somewhere that isn't toxic easier. Sometimes, you can't help but wonder "So, what did all that time I spent learning the shit everyone ignores, really do for me?" 2017-07-15T07:23:47Z elderK: *end rant* 2017-07-15T07:23:48Z elderK: Sorry :D 2017-07-15T07:23:55Z dmh: i completely understand haha 2017-07-15T07:24:07Z elderK: I'm a little bitter these days, I guess. Easy to get carried away 2017-07-15T07:24:24Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T07:25:01Z elderK: dmh: What's the web app like? Is it scary? Is it beautiful? :D 2017-07-15T07:25:17Z dmh: well i didnt actualy have to work on it for reasons 2017-07-15T07:25:22Z dmh: but it was pretty nice looking code 2017-07-15T07:26:41Z dmh: i wish i got to work on it 2017-07-15T07:26:51Z dmh: im surrounded by very low tier programmers cranking out nightmares 2017-07-15T07:27:06Z dmh: i luckily got to break out a bit on my own work 2017-07-15T07:27:12Z elderK: Nice. 2017-07-15T07:27:22Z elderK: Does your manager or team lead give you space? 2017-07-15T07:27:25Z elderK: Mine was a total control freak. 2017-07-15T07:27:33Z elderK: There wasn't a thing you could do without him ordering you to change it. 2017-07-15T07:27:40Z elderK: It got to the point of raw threats. 2017-07-15T07:27:42Z elderK: :| 2017-07-15T07:27:47Z dmh: well, my experience is a bit odd 2017-07-15T07:28:00Z elderK: I.e. You complete some project, written nicely, maintainable, extensible. You're done well before the deadline. 2017-07-15T07:28:10Z elderK: Then, beause he doesn't understand it, he forces you to rewrite it "his" way. 2017-07-15T07:28:18Z elderK: That was more time and makes things worse. 2017-07-15T07:28:19Z dmh: at both places, its not that im exceptionally skilled, but everyone else is very low tier so i shoot to top and drove a lot of change 2017-07-15T07:28:30Z elderK nods 2017-07-15T07:28:32Z dmh: so they thought wow he is great and gave me a really loose leash on projects cuz i would just produce like crazy 2017-07-15T07:28:59Z dmh: ive never had to deal with micromanagement as a professional developer thankfully haha 2017-07-15T07:29:03Z dmh: thatd get me too 2017-07-15T07:29:18Z elderK: My first job was actually better although it took hindsight for me to recognize that. 2017-07-15T07:29:32Z dmh: i had a boss at a previous job that rejected anything he didnt understand, and he was a very smart guy but didnt try to understand anything new, so that was sorta close, but he just gave up and trusted us 2017-07-15T07:29:40Z dmh: yea i made same mistake 2017-07-15T07:29:47Z elderK: There, they didn't care how you got the job done, just that you did. And if you produced working products in good time, well, that was awesome. 2017-07-15T07:29:54Z elderK: At my last job, well. It was all about the lead. 2017-07-15T07:29:58Z elderK: It was *his* castle. 2017-07-15T07:30:07Z elderK: And if you didn't do things EXACTLY his way, he would throw a tantrum. 2017-07-15T07:30:28Z elderK: I.e. If you DARED to break lines... BEWARE! 2017-07-15T07:30:34Z elderK: If you used operators that he didn't know about... 2017-07-15T07:30:42Z elderK: Or actually split things into .cpp and .h... 2017-07-15T07:30:48Z elderK: He wrote everything, everything in a giant .h file. 2017-07-15T07:30:52Z elderK: Implementation there, too. 2017-07-15T07:31:09Z elderK: "You shouldn't use enumerations! You should use #define!" etc. 2017-07-15T07:31:28Z elderK: dmh: Interesting. It's good that he just gave up. 2017-07-15T07:31:30Z elderK: :P 2017-07-15T07:31:38Z dmh: on most things, he still had his 'stuff' 2017-07-15T07:31:42Z dmh: it was a lazer focus .NET shop 2017-07-15T07:31:52Z dmh: we were doing shit no one before had done apparently 2017-07-15T07:31:57Z dmh: it sucked 2017-07-15T07:32:00Z elderK: It sounds it. 2017-07-15T07:32:29Z elderK: I was working for this country's second largest payment processor. Vending machines, parking machines, electronic payment terminals, ecommerce, etc. 2017-07-15T07:32:49Z elderK: Generally, when the lead couldn't grok something, he'd throw it to me. And if it was hard enough - for him - he'd give me a lot of space. 2017-07-15T07:32:59Z elderK: (I.e. When I had to implement support for Apple and Android Pay.) 2017-07-15T07:33:25Z elderK: (The NIST standards and stuff for the crypto... OpenSSL and stuff too, all scared him.). 2017-07-15T07:33:28Z elderK: So, he left me in peace for that. 2017-07-15T07:34:18Z dmh: haha 2017-07-15T07:34:25Z elderK: Unfortunately, he'd still shit his pants if he found out I broke long lines. He seemed to be one of those people that thought every line had to do ONE thing. 2017-07-15T07:34:31Z dmh: i just finished one of those damn NIST checklists for a server 2017-07-15T07:34:33Z elderK: So, his code would have >150 character lines. 2017-07-15T07:34:38Z elderK: That's not including indentation. 2017-07-15T07:34:47Z dmh: oh man my old boss was very comparable lol 2017-07-15T07:35:09Z tumdum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T07:35:09Z dmh: we had to use full namespace qualifications in C# which was insane 2017-07-15T07:35:19Z elderK: When he started threatening me - "If you keep breaking lines of long parameter lists, I will see to it that you are fired!" 2017-07-15T07:35:31Z dmh: what an idiot 2017-07-15T07:35:35Z dmh: managing to manage lol 2017-07-15T07:35:36Z elderK: or "Put all your implementation in a .h file, ffs, or I will find out how to get your pay decreased?!" 2017-07-15T07:35:38Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T07:35:38Z elderK: etc. 2017-07-15T07:35:47Z elderK: So, I resigned and thought "#@!#$ YOU!" 2017-07-15T07:36:09Z elderK: I'd tell you more stuff - but I feel as if I'm... blocking this channel for legitimate use :{P 2017-07-15T07:36:24Z elderK: dmh: You weren't allowed to use the shortcuts? 2017-07-15T07:36:41Z elderK: It's been a long time since I touched C# - but there's a way to import - and to shorten the namespaces, isn't there? 2017-07-15T07:36:42Z dmh: only certain ones 2017-07-15T07:36:56Z dmh: couldnt use new MS base class libraries until he 'understood them' 2017-07-15T07:37:01Z dmh: and boy did he not try to 2017-07-15T07:37:09Z elderK nods 2017-07-15T07:37:12Z dmh: anyway yea, not to go further off topic 2017-07-15T07:37:39Z elderK: :P PM me. I'd love to hear more of your story. Even if only so I know I'm not the only one to have such stories :C 2017-07-15T07:37:46Z elderK: :) 2017-07-15T07:38:08Z elderK: CFFI's type translation stuff seems pretty cool. 2017-07-15T07:38:31Z elderK: I wonder how sane it is to create some wrapper class for a pointer, instead of just passing around raw CFFI stuff. 2017-07-15T07:38:41Z elderK: I'll have to take a peek at some libs, I think. 2017-07-15T07:38:43Z dmh: i managed to leak strings malloc'd in a third party lib at lightspeed 2017-07-15T07:38:47Z elderK: Try and see the idioms. 2017-07-15T07:39:28Z elderK: Sounds like you should have implemented a specialization for free-translated-object 2017-07-15T07:39:43Z elderK: I haven't tried that myself - I'm just reading the manual :) But, that seems to be the purpose of that. 2017-07-15T07:41:32Z elderK: dmh: How much do you know about CL's IO capabilities? 2017-07-15T07:41:45Z elderK: And say, native threading? I know there's bordeaux threads? 2017-07-15T07:41:51Z dmh: aside from implementation specific sockets, none 2017-07-15T07:42:04Z dmh: ive used nothing but sockets for everything 2017-07-15T07:42:08Z elderK: I was wondering how... uh, nice, blocking OS calls play with CL, say, SBCL in this context. 2017-07-15T07:42:29Z dmh: simple blocking sockets at that :p 2017-07-15T07:42:29Z elderK: I was thinking of implementing my own async socket stuff using epoll/iocp/etc~ 2017-07-15T07:43:00Z elderK: I WOULD read some existing libraries for this - but, it's... like... You don't want to jump into the deep end straight away, you know? 2017-07-15T07:43:24Z dmh: absolutely 2017-07-15T07:43:32Z dmh: async greatly muddies the waters too 2017-07-15T07:43:37Z elderK: Especially when they will be making use of idioms or patterns or even just context, that I'm not yet aware of. 2017-07-15T07:45:05Z elderK: Another thing to think about is how do you transmit buffers of stuff to send say, to native code efficiently? I remember long ago that there was a library called 'static-vectors' or something like that. So, you could create a vector or array in Lisp and pass that directly via CFFI - i.e. They were pinned. 2017-07-15T07:45:14Z elderK: And I know that CFFI has some extensions for this. 2017-07-15T07:46:06Z elderK: But... it just makes you wonder. Would you wind up copying to/from all the time? Would you have to manage native buffers yourself? How would you best integrate these native buffers, pointers of them perhaps in some class, into Lisps GC? 2017-07-15T07:46:09Z elderK shrugs 2017-07-15T07:46:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:47:07Z elderK: dmh: That raises another question! How many people add or test support for changing a class at runtime? Making sure their instances can properly handle that, etc? 2017-07-15T07:47:19Z dmh: i dunno 2017-07-15T07:47:23Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T07:47:26Z dmh: all the CL i wrote i didnt use CLOS at all 2017-07-15T07:47:37Z dmh: i was having a hard enough tiem with it haha 2017-07-15T07:47:44Z dmh: im by no means experienced either 2017-07-15T07:49:00Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:50:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T07:50:18Z chens` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T07:51:34Z elderK: dmh: CLOS is pretty cool. 2017-07-15T07:51:52Z elderK: But, I'll admit, it's also quite jarring if you're used to the C++/C#/Java way of doing things. 2017-07-15T07:52:13Z elderK: I have questions about idioms and... stuff, for the experienced people, regarding CLOS. 2017-07-15T07:52:40Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-07-15T07:52:41Z elderK: You get so used to the idea of a class *owning* the member functions, as it were. 2017-07-15T07:52:59Z elderK: So generics being... independent from a class, is a bit of a jump. 2017-07-15T07:54:18Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T07:58:48Z dmh: huh 2017-07-15T07:58:53Z dmh: sounds sorta like traits in rust 2017-07-15T07:59:16Z elderK: There's a good book written by Sonya Keene about CLOS. 2017-07-15T07:59:32Z elderK: :) You can either buy an old copy or download it from libgen.io. 2017-07-15T07:59:37Z elderK: Introduction for CLOS, I believe its called. 2017-07-15T07:59:57Z elderK: A generic function is a bit like a container: It contains a bunch of methods. 2017-07-15T08:00:17Z elderK: It's the methods that actually implement the functionality. And it's the methods that are specialized to specific types. 2017-07-15T08:00:27Z elderK: It's got some really cool functionality too - method combination and stuff. 2017-07-15T08:00:33Z elderK: Well worth a poke when you have time :) 2017-07-15T08:01:09Z dmh: cool 2017-07-15T08:01:14Z dmh: im heading to bed, ill pm ya sometime 2017-07-15T08:01:46Z elderK: Take care, dmh. Sleep well. 2017-07-15T08:01:49Z elderK: :) 2017-07-15T08:01:51Z elderK: Thanks for listening. 2017-07-15T08:02:22Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T08:02:37Z beach: https://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-COMMON-LISP-Programmers/dp/0201175894 2017-07-15T08:02:59Z elderK: beach: That's the one! 2017-07-15T08:04:37Z Merv_ quit 2017-07-15T08:18:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:22:23Z yhaho quit 2017-07-15T08:22:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T08:22:51Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:23:14Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T08:24:15Z random-nickname joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:24:31Z random-nick quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-15T08:24:35Z random-nickname is now known as random-nick 2017-07-15T08:40:25Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:45:57Z phoe: Hey, #lisp: which Lisp guide at https://github.com/Kristories/awesome-guidelines should be the top one? Should we also add Norvig slides there? 2017-07-15T08:49:14Z Pollwa` joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:50:05Z Pollwa` left #lisp 2017-07-15T08:50:25Z beach: phoe: Not this one: http://labs.ariel-networks.com/cl-style-guide.html 2017-07-15T08:51:28Z phoe: beach: This guide is why I asked, actually. It is nothing that I can see used contemporarily. 2017-07-15T08:51:48Z phoe: And, as this is a curated list, personally I don't think it should be there. 2017-07-15T08:53:10Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:53:29Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T08:53:36Z beach: That one has several problems in it, including some highly personal taste being recommended, rather than agreed-upon conventions. 2017-07-15T08:56:17Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:57:10Z elderK: beach: phoe's link? Or Keene's book? 2017-07-15T08:57:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:57:29Z phoe: elderK: beach's link, actually. 2017-07-15T08:57:34Z phoe: the labs.ariel-networks.com one 2017-07-15T08:57:54Z jeremiah__ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T08:59:45Z elderK: Ah, my bad. I missed that entirely. 2017-07-15T08:59:47Z elderK: Sorry :) 2017-07-15T09:01:04Z azrazalea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T09:07:59Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-15T09:08:27Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2017-07-15T09:12:21Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T09:12:59Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T09:17:36Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-15T09:18:20Z elderK: Hey guys, does anyone happen to have the ASDF3 manual PDF laying about? 2017-07-15T09:18:23Z elderK: common-lisp.net is down. 2017-07-15T09:18:33Z elderK: I'm having trouble finding a recent manual for ASDF. 2017-07-15T09:18:35Z elderK: :( 2017-07-15T09:21:38Z phoe: elderK: ask Google for a cached version 2017-07-15T09:21:41Z phoe: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7UhRFKs78c4J:https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pl 2017-07-15T09:22:20Z edgar-rft: elderK: a copy of the common-lisp.net repository is here: 2017-07-15T09:25:06Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T09:25:18Z elderK: Thanks guys. 2017-07-15T09:28:43Z elderK: Annoying. Google Cache doesn't let you actually download the PDF... 2017-07-15T09:28:59Z elderK: As for the GitHub, that'd require me to actually build the documentation. 2017-07-15T09:30:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-15T09:30:51Z elderK: Build it I will, I guess :) 2017-07-15T09:31:12Z azrazalea quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T09:35:46Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-15T09:35:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-15T09:36:33Z phoe submits, https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6nf3g4/ 2017-07-15T09:47:33Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2017-07-15T09:47:35Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T10:00:06Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:03:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T10:06:36Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:06:44Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T10:06:50Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:07:07Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-15T10:09:49Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:12:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:15:34Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T10:16:22Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T10:16:22Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T10:17:26Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:17:33Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T10:20:59Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:21:26Z phoe: common-lisp.net is back! 2017-07-15T10:25:03Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:25:42Z teggi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T10:26:19Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:26:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T10:28:24Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:30:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T10:31:28Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-15T10:35:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:48:32Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:49:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:51:09Z phoe: ...and supports HTTP/2. 2017-07-15T10:53:37Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-15T10:56:40Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-15T10:56:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T11:02:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:04:54Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T11:07:15Z LAG_: what is the news ? 2017-07-15T11:07:38Z LAG_: the Latest news still show 2015-05-25 2017-07-15T11:11:34Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T11:12:57Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:13:21Z kushal is now known as Guest8605 2017-07-15T11:18:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:21:28Z edgar-rft: When "late news" are news being sooo late that nobody wants to know them anymore, what exactly do you expect to find under "latest news"? 2017-07-15T11:23:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-15T11:27:05Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:27:12Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:31:02Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:32:04Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T11:35:08Z tankfeeder joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:36:45Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-15T11:38:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:40:18Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:40:18Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T11:40:41Z Ven is now known as Guest52311 2017-07-15T11:43:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T11:58:01Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:03:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:09:32Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:11:30Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T12:12:25Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T12:13:45Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:14:02Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:14:50Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T12:22:36Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-15T12:24:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:27:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T12:27:42Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T12:28:04Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:28:28Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:31:59Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:32:08Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T12:32:34Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:32:42Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:32:43Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-15T12:35:19Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T12:36:04Z Guest8605 is now known as kushal 2017-07-15T12:36:12Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T12:36:12Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:37:15Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:38:17Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:40:49Z loke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T12:42:09Z loke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T12:42:21Z malice: I've inserted some break statements that I would like to ignore in my call now. 2017-07-15T12:42:39Z malice: I tried (flet ((cl::break () nil)) my-code) but it doesn't work. 2017-07-15T12:42:48Z malice: Of course I've tried that after lifting the package lock on CL 2017-07-15T12:43:16Z malice: Is this the proper approach and I've done some stupid mistake, or is the problem more complex or my approach wrong? 2017-07-15T12:43:34Z Bike: you could, like, delete the break calls? 2017-07-15T12:43:40Z Bike: or conditionalize them based on a debug variable. 2017-07-15T12:45:22Z malice: Yes, but I haven't thought of it at the time and wanted a quick hack 2017-07-15T12:45:30Z malice: and I may want to use them in the future 2017-07-15T12:45:43Z malice: So my approach won't work? 2017-07-15T12:45:45Z Bike: quick hacks aren't good for the future 2017-07-15T12:45:48Z Bike: no, it won't 2017-07-15T12:47:03Z Bike: (defmacro debug-break (&rest args) (if *debug* `(break ,@args) nil)), then there will be breaks only if *debug* was true at compile time 2017-07-15T12:47:22Z malice: I didn't want to put it in code, just to use in REPL to try out the stuff. I'm not used to leaving hacks in the code. 2017-07-15T12:48:03Z malice: May I know why it won't work though? I thought that the call to BREAK would call my function, as the global definition is shadowed by the local one? 2017-07-15T12:48:32Z Bike: well, violating package locks takes you into unknown territory 2017-07-15T12:48:35Z Bike: but what is my-code exactly? 2017-07-15T12:49:47Z malice: A call to the function of some system I'm debugging 2017-07-15T12:50:25Z malice: Bike: so to make things clear, were this some other function, non-locked, e.g. #'FOO, the code would work? 2017-07-15T12:50:29Z Bike: like (flet ((break () nil)) (malice:do-stuff))? 2017-07-15T12:50:33Z malice: yes 2017-07-15T12:50:42Z Bike: no, that wouldn't work regardless of the package lock. 2017-07-15T12:50:48Z Bike: flet does lexical bindings, not dynamic bindings. 2017-07-15T12:51:30Z malice: and declaring it special wouldn't change anything, would it? 2017-07-15T12:51:42Z Bike: it would be an error. you can't bind functions specially. 2017-07-15T12:52:24Z malice: I see. That's too bad. 2017-07-15T12:52:27Z malice: Thanks. 2017-07-15T12:52:34Z Bike: no problem 2017-07-15T12:52:54Z Bike: if you do want something like 'special functions', you can just do like (defun foo (&rest args) (apply *foo* args)) and then bind *foo* 2017-07-15T12:54:36Z malice: Yes. 2017-07-15T12:59:00Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T13:00:54Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-15T13:00:55Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:01:14Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:02:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:03:05Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:04:32Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:06:12Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:07:00Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:07:49Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:08:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:10:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:11:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:13:13Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T13:14:01Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:18:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:18:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T13:18:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:19:16Z |3b|: instead of messing with the BREAK, you could add a handler to pick the continue restart automatically 2017-07-15T13:19:50Z Bike: might be a bit slow though 2017-07-15T13:20:27Z malice: That's nice, haven't thought of that. 2017-07-15T13:22:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:22:09Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:27:44Z elderK: Guys, when you're writing a new program, like, creating your own ASDF system and all, do you link your project's directory into wherever ASDF's source registry is? 2017-07-15T13:27:46Z elderK: Or is there a nicer way? 2017-07-15T13:28:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:28:45Z elderK: After skimming the ASDF3 manual, I've just placed a bunch of prereq systems in ~/.local/share/common-lisp/sources. SBCL's happy and can find them all. 2017-07-15T13:29:00Z elderK: It'd be nice do avoid having to link stuff there during development. 2017-07-15T13:29:10Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:31:23Z axion: elderK No, I don't. I add my own directory to ASDF's source registry. 2017-07-15T13:33:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:37:27Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:37:39Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:38:37Z jmarciano: When I use my own ASDF system, how do I prevent this appearing WARNING: DEFUN/DEFMACRO: redefining function IN-USER-CONFIGURATION-DIRECTORY in /home/data1/protected/.cache/common-lisp/clisp-2.49+-unix-x64/home/data1/protected/lib/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/uiop-3.1.7/backward-driver.fas, was defined in /home/data1/protected/lib/lisp/quicklisp/cache/asdf-fasls/0ktqad/asdf.fas -- do I need to clear Quicklisp cache? 2017-07-15T13:38:41Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T13:39:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T13:39:21Z malice: elderK: I keep all my projects in fixed position in filesystem 2017-07-15T13:39:26Z malice: like ~/Programming/Lisp 2017-07-15T13:39:43Z malice: and I have this folder added to the asdf's :tree 2017-07-15T13:40:11Z malice: or you can use an existing folder instead, ~/quicklisp/local-projects 2017-07-15T13:40:54Z jmarciano: I know what you mean thanks. Is this related to my private project or quicklisp cache? 2017-07-15T13:41:23Z malice: jmarciano: actually I wasn't talking to you, but to elderK 2017-07-15T13:41:29Z malice: (if you are adressing me) 2017-07-15T13:41:31Z jmarciano: sorry 2017-07-15T13:41:43Z malice: yeah, it's the first time I see problem like this. 2017-07-15T13:42:38Z malice: jmarciano: are you using clisp? 2017-07-15T13:45:28Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:45:32Z jmarciano: yes 2017-07-15T13:46:10Z jmarciano: I eliminated many of them by realizing I was using image which already had alexandria and some of :depends, but I still have warning left 2017-07-15T13:46:39Z elderK: malice: Thank you, Malice. I just tweaked ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.d 2017-07-15T13:48:04Z jmarciano: if I understand well, if I quicklisp load "asdf", also uiop is loaded, so I do not need to mention "uiop" in system.asd 2017-07-15T13:50:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-15T13:51:15Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-15T13:53:27Z elderK: I wonder why lispbuilder-sdl didn't use CFFI's groveller. 2017-07-15T13:53:34Z elderK: They've written all the defcstruct stuff by hand. 2017-07-15T13:54:29Z malice: jmarciano: could you show us your .asdf file? 2017-07-15T13:54:56Z malice: Also, to the best of my knowledge, clisp isn't a really great compiler 2017-07-15T13:55:32Z malice: I mean, latest release is quite old, I doubt it's maintained 2017-07-15T13:55:40Z malice: and it has some problems that could be resolved 2017-07-15T13:55:42Z malice: although I don' 2017-07-15T13:55:49Z malice: don't remember the specifics now 2017-07-15T13:56:08Z jmarciano: moment 2017-07-15T13:57:31Z jmarciano: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350915 2017-07-15T13:57:34Z elderK: malice: I'd agree with you there. The only reason I ever use Clisp is to build SBCL. 2017-07-15T13:57:39Z elderK: After that, it's gonnnnneeeeee. 2017-07-15T13:57:47Z elderK: :D Then I rebuild SBCL with SBCL! :D 2017-07-15T13:57:58Z jmarciano: and I am not sure, do I need to list all :depends or just one that asks others in chain. 2017-07-15T13:59:57Z jmarciano: malice: maybe is not, it just works and I use development version, even stable one works. 2017-07-15T14:01:09Z jmarciano: in 99.999% cases it will be my mistake, not CLISP mistake. 2017-07-15T14:01:17Z |3b|: elderK: it might be older than the groveller, and i don't thing the groveller would have helped with that anyway (and would mean people needed a working C compiler to load lispbuilder-sdl) 2017-07-15T14:02:07Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T14:02:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:02:39Z elderK: |3b|: I see what you mean wrt to requiring a C compiler. But other than that, I think the groveller would've helped. 2017-07-15T14:03:00Z jmarciano: I would like to remove WARNING: Adding method # (EQL #))> to an already called generic function # -- but I don't know where to start 2017-07-15T14:03:33Z jmarciano: maybe a system is calling other system which has it loaded already? 2017-07-15T14:03:40Z elderK: |3b|: And aye, I'm not sure how old the Groveller is. Maybe you're right, maybe it didn't exist when LBSDL was being written. 2017-07-15T14:04:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:05:35Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:06:02Z jmarciano: if for example cl-ansi-text which I have in :depends-on also has :depends-on "alexandria" do I need to remove "alexandria" from my ASD file? 2017-07-15T14:06:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:06:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-15T14:06:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:06:34Z |3b|: you should depend on whatever you use, so you don't break if the other lib decides to change their deps 2017-07-15T14:06:36Z elderK: Out of curiosity, what's the usual... system... most people use for unit testing in CL? 2017-07-15T14:06:55Z malice: elderK: none 2017-07-15T14:07:02Z p_l: elderK: lots of options 2017-07-15T14:07:07Z p_l: everyone has their favourites 2017-07-15T14:07:08Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:07:09Z malice: elderK: there are many, but one of the most popular are fiveam and prove, I guess 2017-07-15T14:07:10Z |3b|: (or if you decide to stop using the intermediate lib) 2017-07-15T14:07:13Z p_l: some people just don't test 2017-07-15T14:07:24Z p_l: some older code uses RT, iirc? 2017-07-15T14:07:31Z malice: jmarciano: just wanted to warn you. Yeah, the file looks okay 2017-07-15T14:08:03Z elderK: p_l: trivial-features uses rt. 2017-07-15T14:08:16Z jmarciano: thanks for review malice 2017-07-15T14:08:34Z p_l: elderK: I think RT is one of the oldest packages around, recall reading some paper on it that really dated it 2017-07-15T14:08:53Z malice: jmarciano: np. I would clear caches and see if it helps, but other than that, I have no idea 2017-07-15T14:09:01Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:09:10Z jmarciano: yes, how to clear caches? 2017-07-15T14:09:52Z malice: p_l: I believe RT has been created in 1990 and last updated in 1995 2017-07-15T14:10:15Z elderK: Crazy 2017-07-15T14:10:18Z p_l: malice: would fit 2017-07-15T14:10:28Z p_l: elderK: Common Lisp code is quite... long-lived 2017-07-15T14:10:49Z p_l: actually a lot of code is long-lived but usually hampered by dependencies that change under it 2017-07-15T14:11:02Z p_l: CL having a stable standard since 1994 helps a lot 2017-07-15T14:11:28Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:11:29Z malice: jmarciano: I'd try #'asdf:clear-source-registry 2017-07-15T14:11:29Z elderK: That raises another question: How does CL play with native functions that may block? Provided say, we're calling those native functions via CFFI from some thread, via say bordeaux threads? 2017-07-15T14:12:11Z elderK: p_l: I have no problem with old code if it works, works well. If it hasn't been changed, maybe it simply didn't need to? Maybe it was already perfect :) 2017-07-15T14:12:25Z malice: jmarciano: and maybe remove the cache files? 2017-07-15T14:12:33Z malice: from the path that has been supplied to you 2017-07-15T14:12:36Z malice: right now I'm guessing 2017-07-15T14:13:14Z jmarciano: OK I tried that one, but still 2017-07-15T14:13:44Z jmarciano: I just see, if I remove for example "alexandria" which is anyway loaded by other :depends-on files I get less warnings 2017-07-15T14:14:27Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:15:00Z Guest52311 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T14:15:25Z elderK: jmarciano: AFAIK, you want to specify *direct dependencies*. Not indirect dependencies. 2017-07-15T14:15:36Z elderK: So if you, for instance, rely on cffi. 2017-07-15T14:15:45Z elderK: You don't need to specify babel, alexandria or trivial-features. 2017-07-15T14:15:54Z elderK: CFFI will take care of bringing them in, if necessary. 2017-07-15T14:15:59Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:15:59Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T14:16:02Z jmarciano: aha that is what I was thinking 2017-07-15T14:16:13Z elderK: I believe malice said this a little earlier. 2017-07-15T14:16:44Z jmarciano: but |3b| said I should define to what I depend on, in case other libraries change it. 2017-07-15T14:17:10Z jmarciano: and I see, if I do that cffi-manner it has less warnings, as it is not double loaded. 2017-07-15T14:17:27Z malice: elderK I'm not sure, but I thought his .asdf didn't contain any non-direct deps 2017-07-15T14:17:33Z p_l: jmarciano: if you call alexandria in your code, you should depend on it 2017-07-15T14:17:39Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:17:52Z p_l: if you don't, but a library you depend on uses it, you don't include it in your system deps 2017-07-15T14:17:57Z elderK: jmarciano: That's what I mean by specify your direct dependencies. 2017-07-15T14:18:10Z malice: jmarciano: No, not really. You only specify your direct deps. If other library changes the deps, it's not your problem. 2017-07-15T14:18:15Z elderK: You can't control what other things depend on - and you shouldn't rely on it, either. 2017-07-15T14:18:19Z elderK: That's their business, not yours. 2017-07-15T14:18:22Z elderK: So: direct deps. 2017-07-15T14:18:28Z elderK: Depend-on ONLY what you requiore. 2017-07-15T14:18:38Z elderK: The systems you require, they take care of bringing in everything they need. 2017-07-15T14:18:47Z elderK: And so on and on and on. Systems! All the way down! :P 2017-07-15T14:19:35Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:19:58Z elderK: malice: So far prove looks pretty awesome. I like how simple it apears. 2017-07-15T14:19:59Z jmarciano: OK I get it, so I do specify "alexandria" for example. 2017-07-15T14:20:00Z elderK: :D 2017-07-15T14:20:22Z elderK: If your program directly uses stuff from Alex, yes. 2017-07-15T14:20:46Z jmarciano: I was expecting then the ASDF to handle those matters automatically, for example why is ASDF then loading multiple times alexandria... 2017-07-15T14:20:49Z malice: elderK: I've heard nice things about prove. I've been using fiveam myself, but prove has better support for Roswell 2017-07-15T14:20:57Z jmarciano: then I get all the nasty warnings. 2017-07-15T14:21:03Z elderK: I took a peek at roswell... *shrugs* 2017-07-15T14:21:12Z malice: elderK: ? 2017-07-15T14:21:12Z elderK: I still build/install sbcl manually. 2017-07-15T14:21:20Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:21:32Z elderK: roswell's nice for automating installation of implementations, as well as setting up stuff like quicklisp, right? 2017-07-15T14:21:38Z elderK: It's kind of like... the gateway to CL! :D 2017-07-15T14:21:40Z elderK: The onramp. 2017-07-15T14:21:42Z elderK: :D 2017-07-15T14:21:50Z malice: I use roswell for CI 2017-07-15T14:22:04Z malice: it makes it easier to test multiple implementations at once 2017-07-15T14:22:09Z elderK: That makes sense. 2017-07-15T14:22:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:22:27Z malice: You could use Roswell to write "CL scripts", but I don't really like that, I guess. 2017-07-15T14:22:38Z elderK: I don't use QuickLisp - I was wondering if that's a kind of outmoded way to do things these days. 2017-07-15T14:22:58Z elderK: Not QuickLisp being outmoded - NOT using it, being outmoded. 2017-07-15T14:23:06Z elderK: So far, I'm pretty happy just chugging away with ASDF. 2017-07-15T14:23:09Z malice: wow 2017-07-15T14:23:21Z malice: I can't imagine not using QL 2017-07-15T14:23:23Z malice: it's awesome 2017-07-15T14:23:40Z elderK: I guess not using QL would make CI via Roswell much harder, too. 2017-07-15T14:23:49Z elderK: Like... atm, I have to manually git clone all the shit I need. 2017-07-15T14:23:56Z malice: well, you can load systems via Roswell 2017-07-15T14:24:02Z malice: it has QL built-in 2017-07-15T14:24:07Z malice: so you can use QL without having QL? 2017-07-15T14:24:08Z malice: :D 2017-07-15T14:24:20Z elderK: :P That is very familiar sounding. 2017-07-15T14:24:35Z elderK: :D Edit emacs while you're editing in emacs, dawg! :D 2017-07-15T14:24:51Z malice: You can even download github repositories, so you're not limited to QL's systems 2017-07-15T14:24:52Z malice: which is nice 2017-07-15T14:25:11Z elderK: Anywho, still curious as to how threading works via bourdeaux threads, with respect to native functions that block. 2017-07-15T14:25:17Z elderK: Like say, using epoll or kqueue. 2017-07-15T14:25:53Z malice: you can try yourself :) 2017-07-15T14:25:54Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:25:56Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T14:26:08Z elderK: I only ask because many Schemes are green-threaded. 2017-07-15T14:26:35Z elderK: And you when you interface with stuff like epoll, you have to let their runtimes know that it's a blocking call and such. 2017-07-15T14:27:11Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:27:29Z malice: I see. I haven't been using these threads directly, so I don't know, but I believe they aren't green 2017-07-15T14:28:06Z akr[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:29:01Z elderK: Another question! (Sorry, I'm full of them. I *am* looking at existing projects to try and learn but... you guys are here... so...) 2017-07-15T14:29:27Z elderK: What's the best way to pass say, a buffer that's a vector in CL, to native code? I've seen things like static-vectors about. 2017-07-15T14:29:36Z elderK: I was wondering if we had to copy to/from native buffers. 2017-07-15T14:29:45Z elderK: Or if you'd just foreign-alloc a buffer and use that instead of using CL vectors at all. 2017-07-15T14:29:47Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:30:42Z elderK: Maybe these questions aren't so important. It's just, I come from C. So, naturally, I've very interested in issues of interfacing CL ro it. 2017-07-15T14:30:45Z elderK: *it 2017-07-15T14:31:03Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:32:55Z akr[m]: Hello, I wonder if someone could help me with a build error from buildapp/asdf I'm getting. The error is `Component :DE.SETF.AMQP.AMQP-1-1-0-9-1 not found` and it's caused by `--eval "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :de.setf.amqp.amqp-1-1-0-9-1)"` argument to buildapp. Strangely enough, I stared getting the error when I've checkout out another git branch, however when I've switched back to the original branch where it was working, 2017-07-15T14:32:56Z akr[m]: it's still not working. Any ideas? 2017-07-15T14:33:13Z akr[m]: I don't quite know what `de.setf.amqp.amqp-1-1-0-9-1` is 2017-07-15T14:33:27Z pjb: it's the name of a system. 2017-07-15T14:33:31Z elderK: malice and p_l: Thank you for helping me :) 2017-07-15T14:33:35Z pjb: But it seems to be a versionned name. 2017-07-15T14:33:40Z akr[m]: However the build fails with a different error without ir 2017-07-15T14:33:43Z akr[m]: s/ir/it 2017-07-15T14:33:51Z pjb: I would try to quickload de.setf.amqp.amqp or de.setf.amqp instead. 2017-07-15T14:34:20Z pjb: Probably, this exact version is not available from the quicklisp distribution in quicklisp anymore. 2017-07-15T14:34:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:34:39Z pjb: quicklisp doesn't deal directly or explicitely with system versions. 2017-07-15T14:34:40Z akr[m]: hmm, none of those two are found either 2017-07-15T14:35:50Z akr[m]: I don't think this is using quicklisp, though 2017-07-15T14:37:04Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:37:29Z pjb: Then inspect ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and any other place configured in asdf for your local systems. Install manually de.setf.amqp there (~/quicklisp/local-projects/). 2017-07-15T14:38:28Z akr[m]: hmm 2017-07-15T14:38:29Z akr[m]: Can you explain why it was compiling just fine until I've switched a branch in git? 2017-07-15T14:38:33Z malice: np 2017-07-15T14:39:07Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T14:39:16Z akr[m]: I'm pretty sure the branch switch didn't touch the build process 2017-07-15T14:39:36Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:43:58Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-15T14:47:33Z elderK: Thanks again peeps for your help. 2017-07-15T14:47:35Z elderK slinks off to bed 2017-07-15T14:47:37Z elderK left #lisp 2017-07-15T14:51:34Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T14:54:08Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:54:48Z cluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T14:56:23Z jsgrant_ left #lisp 2017-07-15T14:59:31Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:00:16Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:02:04Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T15:07:30Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T15:13:26Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:14:40Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T15:15:41Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:16:21Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T15:17:15Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:19:09Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:20:16Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:20:40Z Ven is now known as Guest99595 2017-07-15T15:23:13Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T15:24:09Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T15:25:26Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:29:31Z tankfeeder left #lisp 2017-07-15T15:30:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:31:25Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:32:30Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T15:34:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T15:39:20Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:42:48Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T15:52:04Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T15:54:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T15:55:26Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:56:45Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-15T15:58:57Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:04:58Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T16:13:54Z Guest99595 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T16:14:38Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:15:01Z Ven is now known as Guest27471 2017-07-15T16:16:11Z bigdaddytank joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:16:21Z Guest27471 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T16:27:58Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T16:30:08Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:31:34Z bigdaddytank quit (Quit: Peace out!) 2017-07-15T16:32:26Z jmarciano: I would like to understand why is this warning coming up seemingly randomly. http://paste.lisp.org/display/350928 2017-07-15T16:32:37Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T16:33:13Z jmarciano: I can turn on some of those :depends-on files, and will get other similar warnings, and I tried to isolate it, but it happens too often. 2017-07-15T16:33:40Z Bike: well that's a bizarre warning for clisp to throw you 2017-07-15T16:34:46Z loke: also, CLISP is kinda obsolete 2017-07-15T16:35:41Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T16:36:11Z loke: although, interestingly enough, there have been commits to the source repository last month 2017-07-15T16:36:23Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:36:45Z Bike: i don't see this behavior mentioned in the manual 2017-07-15T16:36:55Z jmarciano: those warnings are related to asdf 2017-07-15T16:37:09Z jmarciano: as test-op class is in asdf 2017-07-15T16:37:23Z Bike: well, yes, it defines a method on perform, which is a perfectly fine thing to do 2017-07-15T16:37:29Z Bike: but clisp doesn't like it for some inexplicable reason 2017-07-15T16:41:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T16:42:55Z jmarciano: on the other hand, SBCL does not load that file, complaining about EOF, while clisp does load 2017-07-15T16:42:59Z jmarciano: related to cl-emb 2017-07-15T16:43:14Z jmarciano: and I use cl-emb hundreds of thousands times 2017-07-15T16:43:46Z Bike: doesn't load what file? 2017-07-15T16:45:06Z jmarciano: during compiling SBCL is complaining on CL-EMB 2017-07-15T16:46:03Z jmarciano: now not in second time, cannot know why, but some code was excluded 2017-07-15T16:46:19Z jmarciano: ; (ERROR "EOF reached in EMB inside open '~A' tag." CL-EMB:*EMB-START-MARKER*) 2017-07-15T16:46:19Z Bike: (ql:quickload :cl-emb) got me no messages here 2017-07-15T16:46:19Z jmarciano: 2017-07-15T16:46:24Z jmarciano: ; "EOF reached in EMB inside open '~A' tag." 2017-07-15T16:46:25Z jmarciano: 2017-07-15T16:46:34Z jmarciano: yes but you did not compile it 2017-07-15T16:46:37Z Bike: oh, it's not a problem in loading emb, it's a problem in using emb 2017-07-15T16:46:41Z Bike: i certainly did compile it 2017-07-15T16:47:07Z jmarciano: you mean I use cl-emb ? 2017-07-15T16:47:19Z jmarciano: In that example not at all, there is just empty file. I am just loading stuff. 2017-07-15T16:47:27Z Bike: I mean, that error message is obviously somewhere inside cl-emb 2017-07-15T16:47:32Z Bike: it is not a problem with compiling the cl-emb system 2017-07-15T16:47:51Z Bike: unless it uses itself, and incorrectly, which i guess is possible, but seems unlikely 2017-07-15T16:47:55Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-15T16:48:20Z Bike: what is empty-test, just a blank file? 2017-07-15T16:48:23Z jmarciano: something like that seem to be 2017-07-15T16:48:34Z jmarciano: yes 2017-07-15T16:48:51Z jmarciano: it can be anything, I am trying to find out those warnings that CLISP is giving 2017-07-15T16:48:58Z jmarciano: I mean anything short 2017-07-15T16:50:02Z Bike: the warning in your paste is just from https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre/blob/master/cl-ppcre.asd#L83-L85 2017-07-15T16:50:15Z Bike: which is perfectly fine, but clisp is warning because it's dumb i guess 2017-07-15T16:51:38Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T16:51:49Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:52:00Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:52:27Z jmarciano: it is a bug or not a bug. I don't think it is a bug. 2017-07-15T16:52:37Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-07-15T16:53:46Z Bike: ppcre's code is not a bug. clisp's reacting to it with a warning is silly but not a bug in clisp exactly, i guess. 2017-07-15T16:54:34Z jmarciano: Ok I will ask in their mailing list. 2017-07-15T16:55:17Z Bike: i don't think clisp is maintained. (well, i guess it is, if there's a recent commit) 2017-07-15T16:55:23Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T16:55:42Z jmarciano: it is, don't owrry 2017-07-15T16:56:13Z aeth: iirc, clisp is maintained enough to get new commits, but not maintained enough to get a new release 2017-07-15T16:56:25Z Bike: sourceforge says it hasn't been modified since 2010, did it move? 2017-07-15T16:56:47Z aeth: I always check github because there's usually a github mirror if the project's not there 2017-07-15T16:57:29Z aeth: This mirror has Mar 24 as the last commit, which doesn't mean that's the last actual commit. https://github.com/rurban/clisp 2017-07-15T16:57:29Z Bike: clisp.org is on sourceforge 2017-07-15T16:57:49Z jmarciano: CLISP is running pretty well, it is mature software, while I run development version. 2017-07-15T16:58:04Z jmarciano: And I use mercurial, I don't know about git 2017-07-15T16:58:27Z aeth: The source of that mirror is hg and says "2 weeks ago". http://hg.code.sf.net/p/clisp/clisp 2017-07-15T16:58:44Z aeth: Were you looking at their published versions? Or perhaps an old CVS or SVN repo? 2017-07-15T16:58:57Z Bike: i was looking at the link to the source on clisp.org 2017-07-15T16:58:59Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T16:59:12Z Bike: under "our official distribution sites" 2017-07-15T16:59:20Z Bike: if they forgot to update that, fine 2017-07-15T16:59:39Z aeth: In the Lisp world, all documentation is out of date if it exists. :-) 2017-07-15T17:00:18Z serviteur: if it exists, indeed :))) 2017-07-15T17:01:23Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:02:27Z jmarciano: CLISP has readline, for that reason is very usable in REPL 2017-07-15T17:02:41Z jmarciano: And it makes image of 20 megabytes instad 60 like SBCL. 2017-07-15T17:03:23Z jmarciano: by the way I am willing to find programmer to convert some C++ mathematical formulars to Lisp 2017-07-15T17:03:48Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T17:03:50Z jmarciano: I would pay few hundred dollars for the job to get it done properly, even who knows to read C++ this could be just few hours of work (or few days) 2017-07-15T17:04:04Z aeth: jmarciano: enjoy SBCL: http://paste.lisp.org/+7IS2 2017-07-15T17:05:01Z aeth: if readline is the main point 2017-07-15T17:05:05Z pyx joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:05:13Z aeth: I used to use clisp when I needed an in-terminal Lisp, but now I use that script 2017-07-15T17:06:16Z jmarciano: I will definitely try that 2017-07-15T17:06:38Z jmarciano: but that means I need to make list of all functions myself somehow 2017-07-15T17:06:44Z aeth: You might have to modify it a bit to get it to work for you. I did. I am not the originator of that script. Iirc, someone else in #lisp is. 2017-07-15T17:06:46Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T17:07:16Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:07:35Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:07:46Z aeth: I'm guessing there was a $HOME/.sbcl_completions that the original author had. 2017-07-15T17:08:15Z jmarciano: interesting really. 2017-07-15T17:08:20Z jmarciano: I must try that one 2017-07-15T17:10:41Z pyx quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-15T17:12:27Z aeth: Unrelated trick, but something I find very uesful is to do this if you're using the REPL as a calculator instead of to write programs: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) 2017-07-15T17:13:07Z aeth: In a program, you might want the speed and lack of consing of single-float, but quick REPL usage probably requires doubles to get the right answer. 2017-07-15T17:13:50Z aeth: In some Lisps (CLISP and ECL?), 'long-float might be preferable. 2017-07-15T17:13:56Z jmarciano: Ohhh yes, that one gave me headaches before. 2017-07-15T17:14:12Z jmarciano: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'DOUBLE-FLOAT) 2017-07-15T17:14:12Z jmarciano: (setf *default-float-format* 'DOUBLE-FLOAT) 2017-07-15T17:14:12Z jmarciano: 2017-07-15T17:14:18Z jmarciano: I use both in mathematical stuff. 2017-07-15T17:14:47Z jmarciano: Before months somebody explained it to me, I guess here. 2017-07-15T17:15:40Z jmarciano: it makes a difference when geographical coordinates are calculated 2017-07-15T17:16:16Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T17:16:36Z aeth: Anything large. 2017-07-15T17:17:00Z aeth: e.g. anything where you'd want to write the scientific notation like 1283d-23 2017-07-15T17:17:06Z aeth: well, sort of scientific notation 2017-07-15T17:17:20Z aeth: (Anything large or small, my example is small.) 2017-07-15T17:17:29Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T17:18:34Z jmarciano: nice 2017-07-15T17:19:57Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:23:38Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:27:25Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-15T17:27:56Z aeth: Another trick I use is to autoload alexandria. 2017-07-15T17:28:33Z aeth: It has a lot of calculator stuff (e.g. mean, binomial-coefficient, factorial) and a lot of stuff for quick programming one-liners (e.g. curry/rcurry) 2017-07-15T17:28:36Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:29:01Z jmarciano: did not use it. But I made Alexandria part of the image. 2017-07-15T17:29:02Z sfa quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-15T17:29:14Z jmarciano: I hate waiting on "loading", so I make image with systems, and load that one. 2017-07-15T17:32:11Z easye joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:34:14Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:41:42Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T17:42:18Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:45:01Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:45:01Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T17:45:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:48:26Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-15T17:48:53Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-15T17:52:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:52:58Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T17:53:47Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:54:14Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-15T17:57:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T18:04:37Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-15T18:08:07Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T18:08:49Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:08:50Z jmarciano: aeth: well it is completing even the files 2017-07-15T18:09:34Z jmarciano: I would need to construct all variables and functions, like list of it to get better completion. 2017-07-15T18:10:52Z jmarciano: not bad for files, even it is too much... 2017-07-15T18:10:56Z aeth: Why not just use SLIME? 2017-07-15T18:11:15Z jmarciano: it is not REPL 2017-07-15T18:11:38Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T18:11:39Z Bike: huh? 2017-07-15T18:11:47Z jmarciano: When I construct programs, I use it of course. 2017-07-15T18:11:47Z aeth: *slime-repl foo-lisp* with paredit (or something similar) is basically everything that one needs, and then some 2017-07-15T18:11:47Z Bike: listing all symbols doesn't sound bad though. 2017-07-15T18:12:10Z jmarciano: Maybe from your viewpoint is so, but from teaching viewpoint not so. 2017-07-15T18:12:34Z Bike: (do-external-symbols (s :cl) (fresh-line completions) (write (symbol-name s) :stream completions)) 2017-07-15T18:13:29Z jmarciano: completions is missing 2017-07-15T18:13:38Z jmarciano: variable completions unbound 2017-07-15T18:14:09Z Bike: well, yeah, i meant that you'd open a file and stuff 2017-07-15T18:14:11Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T18:14:40Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:16:12Z jmarciano: I need that file, I don't have it 2017-07-15T18:16:20Z jmarciano: or is there a way to export all symbols from SBCL 2017-07-15T18:16:55Z Bike: yes the code writes the file 2017-07-15T18:16:59Z Bike: do you know how to do file i/o in lisp? 2017-07-15T18:17:52Z jmarciano: normal stuff, pipe inputs and opening files, yes. 2017-07-15T18:18:11Z Bike: okay, so open a file and use that form to write symbols into it 2017-07-15T18:18:17Z Bike: 'completions' being the name of the stream 2017-07-15T18:18:52Z jmarciano: I see. 2017-07-15T18:19:30Z jmarciano: Did not know that command 2017-07-15T18:20:24Z jmarciano: That makes sense, than each implementation with rlwrap or rlfe can have symbol completion and history. 2017-07-15T18:23:14Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:23:59Z jmarciano: where on which website can I find people to do some programming in lisp for hire 2017-07-15T18:29:26Z angerTr0n is now known as SpurdoSparde 2017-07-15T18:31:15Z JuanDaugherty is not interested in 'a few hundred bucks' 2017-07-15T18:36:01Z mm__ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:36:07Z mm__: hi all 2017-07-15T18:37:17Z mm__: did someone here know a good implementation of caesar cipher in written in lisp? 2017-07-15T18:39:56Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:40:34Z Bike: (defvar *alphabet" "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz") (defun alpha-code (char) (position char *alphabet*)) (defun code-alpha (code) (char *alphabet* code)) (defun caesar (string n) (map 'string (lambda (c) (code-alpha (mod (+ n (alpha-code c)) 26))) string)) 2017-07-15T18:40:54Z aeth: All you really need is an incf-mod/decf-mod for that, e.g. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-brainfuck/blob/master/brainfuck.lisp#L22-33 2017-07-15T18:41:36Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:42:09Z aeth: I prefer to implement incf-mod/decf-mod and mod+/mod- (in several places actually, I should make a library) because I think tiny helper functions/macros that express things exactly are more idiomatic Lisp. 2017-07-15T18:42:21Z mm__: thanks 2017-07-15T18:43:40Z pjb: Bike: you have to take into account non-*alphabet* character to encode caesar. Either filtering them, or leaving them alone. 2017-07-15T18:43:57Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T18:44:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:45:43Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-15T18:48:30Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T18:49:10Z aeth: pjb: what I'd probably do is use code-char and char-code to have the A-Z, a-z ranges (although this non-portably assumes that the char-code/code-char system has A-Z in a row and then a-z in a row) 2017-07-15T18:49:25Z aeth: and ignore the rest 2017-07-15T18:49:55Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-15T18:50:01Z aeth: One could also set different ranges to cycle over, and non-portably assume unicode or something. 2017-07-15T18:51:36Z aeth: i.e. (vector (char-code #\Z) (char-code #\A) (char-code #\z) (char-code #\a)) 2017-07-15T18:53:45Z aeth: actually, you'd only need the #\A and #\a if you assume they're cycles of 26 characters with e.g. a at (+ lower-case-a-position 0) and the last at (+ lower-case-a-position 25) 2017-07-15T18:59:09Z aeth: (My assumption of a range of letters breaks down if your Lisp uses e.g. EBCDIC) 2017-07-15T19:10:15Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:12:00Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T19:15:50Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T19:15:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:16:14Z Ven is now known as Guest59775 2017-07-15T19:16:46Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:22:33Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:26:04Z Guest59775 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T19:26:15Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T19:27:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-15T19:34:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:45:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:45:49Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T19:48:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:51:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T19:54:24Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-15T19:58:51Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:01:27Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:01:53Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:04:34Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-15T20:04:39Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:05:02Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:08:56Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T20:09:33Z S1 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:10:01Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-07-15T20:16:01Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T20:16:06Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:17:54Z pentashift joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:18:24Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T20:20:32Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:20:33Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:20:56Z Ven is now known as Guest16543 2017-07-15T20:22:13Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:22:19Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T20:22:20Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:25:13Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:28:30Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:32:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-15T20:40:01Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T20:40:47Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T20:42:33Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:45:43Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T20:45:54Z jmarciano: is there a way to get LISP result in Emacs buffer directly just like I can do it with Emacs Lisp 2017-07-15T20:46:33Z jmarciano: OK I found slime-eval-print-last-expression 2017-07-15T20:46:58Z Bike: usually i'd use the repl tho. 2017-07-15T20:48:50Z jmarciano: I know it is beautiful in the clouds, but when you are too long there, you miss the earth. 2017-07-15T20:50:09Z Bike: i don't... are you saying i'm stuck up? it's not like the repl isn't available to you either 2017-07-15T20:50:29Z jmarciano: you are joking 2017-07-15T20:51:18Z jmarciano: I do use REPL all the time, more than SLIME, it depends if I am writing something or calculating, or running some programs 2017-07-15T20:51:18Z Bike: on the contrary, i have no sense of humor 2017-07-15T20:51:27Z Bike: sure 2017-07-15T20:51:32Z jmarciano: I guess I don't know you to confirm it. 2017-07-15T20:51:38Z Bike: it sounded like you were using a terminal's repl though 2017-07-15T20:51:46Z Bike: thus rlwrap 2017-07-15T20:51:47Z jmarciano: exactly 2017-07-15T20:51:49Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T20:51:55Z jmarciano: That one was for SBCL, I use CLISP mostly 2017-07-15T20:51:57Z Bike: i meant, there's also the slime repl 2017-07-15T20:51:59Z akr[m] left #lisp 2017-07-15T20:52:05Z jmarciano: Yes sure, boring. 2017-07-15T20:52:23Z Bike: uh, ok. guess you know what you're doing and what you want. 2017-07-15T20:52:34Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:52:44Z jmarciano: I need less then a second to open REPL, and I need way longer to come into Emacs, Slime, to get REPL, makes no sense. 2017-07-15T20:53:19Z Bike: usually i leave slime open, as a persistent environment. 2017-07-15T20:53:19Z jmarciano: My REPL is bound to C-t l in stumpwm, and it just comes up, less than a second, with all the functions prepared. 2017-07-15T20:53:47Z jmarciano: I believe it is also here persistent 2017-07-15T20:54:03Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T20:54:15Z jmarciano: you mean *inferior-lisp*? 2017-07-15T20:54:26Z Bike: no, inferior lisp sucks 2017-07-15T20:54:28Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T20:54:28Z Bike: M-x slime-repl 2017-07-15T20:54:36Z Bike: has completions and so on 2017-07-15T20:54:38Z jmarciano: I don't have that one 2017-07-15T20:55:03Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T20:55:06Z Bike: i think you need to do, uh.... (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) in your emacs configuration 2017-07-15T20:55:07Z jmarciano: ok I can try now 2017-07-15T20:55:20Z jmarciano: I just needed Marmalade 2017-07-15T20:58:08Z jmarciano: still I don't see how to start it. The above one is not working 2017-07-15T20:58:39Z jmarciano: slime-face-inheritance-p problem 2017-07-15T20:58:51Z jmarciano: *-possible-p 2017-07-15T20:59:09Z jmarciano: never mind 2017-07-15T20:59:33Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T21:00:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T21:02:29Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:02:55Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T21:04:05Z tetero: jmarciano: Fellow stump user eh? Nice! 2017-07-15T21:04:10Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:04:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T21:07:16Z gingerale- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T21:07:19Z jmarciano: quick, efficient 2017-07-15T21:07:33Z jmarciano: even I often get stuck into C-t w to see which is which window 2017-07-15T21:08:23Z jmarciano: It somehow makes sense to run Window Manager in SBCL, where runs Emacs and CLISP in background. 2017-07-15T21:09:08Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:11:46Z tetero: jmarciano: Oh I typically tend to split when I have more than one window, and mode-line helps if you're into that 2017-07-15T21:12:07Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T21:12:16Z tetero: and yeah, I love having it in lisp/sbcl 2017-07-15T21:12:34Z jmarciano: My laptop is smaller for splitting. And I enlarge all letters to watch easy from more than 1 meter with extended keyboard. 2017-07-15T21:12:40Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:12:58Z jmarciano: I just wish I can paste from StumpWM into the Xterminal directly. 2017-07-15T21:14:19Z jmarciano: Something like (defcommand rcd-paste () () 2017-07-15T21:14:19Z jmarciano: (window-send-string (get-x-selection))) 2017-07-15T21:14:19Z jmarciano: and then to bind it to a key that I can paste clipboard to terminal. 2017-07-15T21:15:34Z tetero: Ah. Well, make it 2017-07-15T21:15:43Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T21:16:18Z tetero: Although, what is it that you need to copy/paste between? Your terminal and most apps should support that 2017-07-15T21:16:25Z jmarciano: (define-key *root-map* (kbd "=") "rcd-paste") I have that like this, but is not getting into terminal 2017-07-15T21:16:37Z tetero: Which terminal? 2017-07-15T21:16:40Z jmarciano: xterm 2017-07-15T21:16:48Z tetero: I haven't used that in ages 2017-07-15T21:17:15Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T21:17:43Z tetero: jmarciano: have you tried selecting the window and triggering shift-insert? 2017-07-15T21:18:57Z jmarciano: ohhh that one works 2017-07-15T21:19:14Z jmarciano: is that Stumpwm or xterm feature? 2017-07-15T21:19:27Z tetero: jmarciano: xterm, the copy/paste stuff is specific to each terminal emulator 2017-07-15T21:19:41Z jmarciano: well now I have it 2017-07-15T21:20:18Z jmarciano: Otherwise I would need to bend over the bed to use the mouse pad... 2017-07-15T21:20:29Z tetero: Yeah, midclick 2017-07-15T21:20:48Z jmarciano: I wonder if there is some mouse by keyboard program. 2017-07-15T21:21:25Z jmarciano: That I don't need to use mouse, just keyboard. 2017-07-15T21:21:46Z tetero: jmarciano: xbindkeys perhaps 2017-07-15T21:21:58Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-15T21:23:10Z jmarciano: that one would work if I would have shell program to move mouse pointer 2017-07-15T21:25:05Z jmarciano: that one is basically a built-in in StumpWM 2017-07-15T21:25:19Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T21:26:11Z tetero: jmarciano: xdotool? :) 2017-07-15T21:26:36Z tetero: jmarciano: It both moves the mouse and clicks. I use it a lot 2017-07-15T21:27:02Z tetero: You can also use stumpish to select the window 2017-07-15T21:29:08Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-15T21:29:44Z jmarciano: let me see that 2017-07-15T21:30:28Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:30:50Z jmarciano: compiling 2017-07-15T21:34:55Z PuercoPop: jmarciano: you can use the xtest extension to send mouse clicks from lisp. its implemented in CLX 2017-07-15T21:36:38Z jmarciano: I can move mouse? 2017-07-15T21:38:50Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-15T21:40:21Z jmarciano: I don't need a mouse, programs need a mouse more than me, like some make programs for sake of programs, and not of people. 2017-07-15T21:41:27Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T21:42:21Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:45:37Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-15T21:45:59Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:46:18Z nullniverse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T21:46:36Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:48:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T21:50:34Z jmarciano: xdotool is interesting, but I need to program the mouse to move one by one. 2017-07-15T21:53:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:55:59Z phoe: beach: You have your style guide in the SICL repository. Do you think you could extract it into a separate document? 2017-07-15T21:56:05Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T21:58:17Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T21:59:08Z mson_ joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:01:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T22:01:58Z mson_ is now known as mson 2017-07-15T22:03:58Z Guest16543 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T22:04:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:05:33Z S1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-15T22:06:26Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T22:09:05Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:10:41Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-15T22:18:47Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:19:40Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:22:14Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:23:26Z nowhereman quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-15T22:23:36Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:32:42Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T22:34:08Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T22:34:46Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:37:33Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:39:09Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:40:41Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-15T22:42:23Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-15T22:43:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:43:22Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:43:26Z Ven is now known as Guest72659 2017-07-15T22:45:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-15T22:45:46Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:45:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-15T22:51:52Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T22:52:29Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-15T22:57:05Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T22:57:35Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-15T23:12:16Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-15T23:14:47Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T23:15:59Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-15T23:17:04Z stapler quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T23:19:45Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-15T23:20:49Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T23:21:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-15T23:27:26Z jmarciano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-15T23:29:21Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-15T23:29:48Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-15T23:31:38Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-15T23:32:30Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-15T23:37:25Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-15T23:47:27Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-15T23:49:06Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-15T23:49:42Z Guest72659 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-15T23:58:48Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-16T00:04:22Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T00:04:42Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T00:05:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T00:08:07Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-16T00:10:18Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T00:10:54Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-16T00:18:39Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-16T00:24:25Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2017-07-16T00:30:37Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-16T00:33:35Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-16T00:35:25Z grublet quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T00:39:21Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-16T00:45:53Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T00:51:22Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-16T00:59:15Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-16T01:02:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T01:08:05Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-16T01:10:21Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T01:16:34Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T01:23:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T01:25:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-16T01:27:39Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-16T01:46:35Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T01:53:19Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T01:54:22Z avalokite joined #lisp 2017-07-16T01:54:22Z avalokite quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T01:56:12Z mellowmaroon joined #lisp 2017-07-16T01:57:57Z mellowmaroon quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T01:58:03Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T02:00:10Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T02:08:13Z cluck quit (Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients) 2017-07-16T02:10:06Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:13:51Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T02:20:05Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T02:26:12Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:28:13Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:29:20Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-16T02:30:31Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T02:31:01Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:31:30Z fkae joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:32:51Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:34:09Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T02:37:51Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:38:15Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:38:34Z bgg_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:38:58Z bgg_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T02:40:20Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T02:41:18Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T02:43:50Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T02:44:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T02:45:10Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T02:53:02Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T02:53:13Z pentashift quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T02:59:52Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:00:48Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-16T03:04:05Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:04:09Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:11:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:12:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-16T03:13:01Z beach: phoe: It is not finished. 2017-07-16T03:14:04Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-16T03:14:55Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T03:16:23Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T03:22:30Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T03:27:15Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T03:28:54Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:29:00Z kajo2 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:29:52Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T03:31:38Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-16T03:33:58Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:34:56Z grublet quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T03:35:10Z fkae is now known as fkac 2017-07-16T03:38:22Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T03:48:49Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:49:44Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-16T03:58:38Z gbyers quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T03:59:10Z redcedar quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T03:59:17Z joeygibson quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T03:59:46Z gendl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T03:59:51Z tobel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T03:59:56Z rann quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T04:02:07Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:02:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:03:36Z ryanbw_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:04:01Z ryanbw_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T04:04:52Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T04:07:31Z kajo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-16T04:07:47Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:23:06Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:24:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:26:09Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T04:35:13Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T04:41:50Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:46:30Z handlex quit (Quit: handlex) 2017-07-16T04:58:04Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-16T04:58:07Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-16T05:11:14Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T05:19:11Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T05:20:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T05:23:54Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-16T05:25:15Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T05:27:33Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T05:53:33Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-16T05:59:03Z antonv joined #lisp 2017-07-16T05:59:10Z antonv: hi all 2017-07-16T05:59:15Z antonv: check this out: https://github.com/avodonosov/ql-asdf-chooser 2017-07-16T06:02:16Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T06:02:42Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:08:33Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T06:11:00Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2017-07-16T06:11:42Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-16T06:17:34Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T06:19:00Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:19:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-16T06:20:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:24:37Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:24:38Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-16T06:25:39Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:25:43Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-16T06:28:08Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T06:28:57Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:29:04Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T06:30:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:32:10Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:38:24Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-16T06:41:05Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T06:45:01Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:47:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:52:19Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:52:19Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T06:56:11Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-16T06:59:05Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:01:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:01:50Z jack_rabbit_ is now known as jack_rabbit 2017-07-16T07:04:56Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T07:09:15Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:12:24Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:19:53Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:26:18Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:32:27Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T07:34:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T07:35:10Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T07:35:48Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:36:15Z aceluck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T07:36:47Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:36:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:40:26Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T07:41:10Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:53:35Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T07:54:08Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T07:56:48Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-16T07:58:15Z S1 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:00:24Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:00:34Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:01:04Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-16T08:01:27Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:01:45Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T08:02:26Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T08:02:30Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:04:18Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T08:04:32Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:12:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:13:27Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-16T08:13:34Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:13:47Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T08:14:21Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:14:46Z phoe: beach: I see - thanks. 2017-07-16T08:15:15Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:15:38Z phoe: I am asking because I asked a question which style guide should be on top at https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6nf3g4/ and currently the most upvoted comment is "none", which is troublesome. 2017-07-16T08:16:32Z jack_rabbit: The lisper spirit seems counter to style guides. 2017-07-16T08:18:49Z phoe: jack_rabbit: what do you mean? 2017-07-16T08:19:16Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-16T08:20:22Z jack_rabbit: Lisp seems to me to be very free-form, and on purpose. 2017-07-16T08:20:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:20:38Z phoe: "Even with cruise control, you have to steer." 2017-07-16T08:20:46Z beach: jack_rabbit: On the contrary, it is probably one of the languages with the most agreed-upon conventions. 2017-07-16T08:20:50Z phoe: ~ 4chan, commenting on caps lock being the cruise control for cool 2017-07-16T08:21:36Z jack_rabbit: beach, Sure, but they seem rarely stated explicitly. 2017-07-16T08:22:02Z phoe: Yes, that's exactly why the question about a style guide does not have a good answer up there. 2017-07-16T08:22:05Z beach: jack_rabbit: Maybe that's why phoe is trying to fix it. 2017-07-16T08:22:18Z phoe: Other than, whatever emacs does to indent your code is good enough. 2017-07-16T08:22:18Z beach: phoe: The Google guide is pretty complete as I recall. Fare wrote it, right? 2017-07-16T08:22:44Z phoe: I think so, yes, though there is an argument against it being on top in the link that I put up there. 2017-07-16T08:22:44Z jack_rabbit: beach, Yes. I'm questioning whether it needs fixing. 2017-07-16T08:22:56Z jackdaniel: but it is true that people have their preferences and find constructs more convenient than others. For instance style guides like: "never use DO, use LOOP", "use structures over classes" (or vice versa), "don't use aux" etc. doesn't make good style guide, but I've found some remarks like that in some guides afair 2017-07-16T08:23:36Z beach: jack_rabbit: It does. The number of times that I have recited a large part of it to people who post code for us to read here is more than I would have preferred. 2017-07-16T08:23:41Z jackdaniel: on the other hand, some conventions about indent, variable naming *earmuffs*, +constants+ make a lot of sense and many people agree on them 2017-07-16T08:24:04Z jack_rabbit: Fair enough. You've read more lisp than I have. 2017-07-16T08:25:17Z slaejae quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-16T08:25:34Z jackdaniel: the most important style advice I've had (not CL-specific) is to follow conventions used in the project you contribute to 2017-07-16T08:25:41Z phoe: on the yet another hand there is a notion of that is not common, I have only seen it used in clack for example. 2017-07-16T08:25:48Z beach: jackdaniel: That's why in the SICL documentation, I split it into two parts, general guidelines and SICL-specific ones. 2017-07-16T08:26:58Z jackdaniel: phoe: this convention was stated in EuLisp standard draft. It is important for lisp-1, where functions, variables and classes share the same namespace 2017-07-16T08:27:17Z beach: phoe: I think it was invented by fukamachi, or rather, copied from Dylan, and then a few other Lispers adopted it, like eudoxia. 2017-07-16T08:27:52Z beach: jackdaniel: Ah, interesting. Which one was first? Dylan or EuLisp? 2017-07-16T08:28:41Z beach hereby warns everyone that he is in a rotten mood today. 2017-07-16T08:30:22Z jackdaniel: I don't know really 2017-07-16T08:30:37Z mson_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:31:12Z beach: Dylan: It was created in the early 1990s by a group led by Apple Computer. 2017-07-16T08:31:44Z loke: I kinda like the convention, but I don't ahdere to it since no one else does. :-) 2017-07-16T08:31:44Z beach: EuLisp: Language definition process first began in a meeting in 1985 in Paris and took a long time. The complete specification and a first implementation (interpreted-only) was available in 1990. 2017-07-16T08:31:53Z beach: loke: That's the spirit. 2017-07-16T08:32:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:32:28Z loke: beach: I'm not entirely sure if you'r ebeing sarcastic, and if you are, which part you're being sarcastic about :-) 2017-07-16T08:32:40Z beach: I recommend the book and talks by Steven Pinker. He is not talking about programming languages, but the idea is the same. 2017-07-16T08:32:47Z Ven is now known as Guest47238 2017-07-16T08:32:49Z beach: Not sarcastic. 2017-07-16T08:32:57Z beach: That is exactly how to think about it. 2017-07-16T08:33:30Z jackdaniel: I have mixed feeling about that. Such approach makes style evolution impossible. 2017-07-16T08:33:36Z beach: Pinker says that acceptable style is a matter of "tacit conventions" susceptible to slow evolution over time. 2017-07-16T08:33:55Z beach: jackdaniel: Not true. 2017-07-16T08:33:59Z jackdaniel: For instance if nobody used *earmuffs* in '80s, and nobody would use them, because nobody uses them, we wouldn't have this visual aid for special variables 2017-07-16T08:34:49Z loke: I have a personal style which it comes to naming accessor methods though, which I stick to, but I'm not actually convinced is good. I don' thave a better one though... I name my accessors using the form CLASS/NAME, So bar slot in foo is named foo/bar. 2017-07-16T08:34:54Z beach: jackdaniel: It evolves SLOWLY as a result of SOME individuals OCCASIONALLY invent a new convention that MOST others find useful. 2017-07-16T08:36:16Z beach: loke: It has the problem that when you do that with the baz subclass of foo, you get (foo/bar baz) which looks very strange. Check for instance (clim:sheet-parent gadget). 2017-07-16T08:36:28Z jackdaniel: beach: given that there is no communication between every pair of programmers, and say fukamachi uses - most of them find it useful yet nobody uses it, because nobody uses it. My point is - it's hard to determine synchronically that MOST others find it useful. So either it is adopted gradually (one-by-one), or not at all 2017-07-16T08:36:45Z beach: loke: Aside from the slash, the convention exists. 2017-07-16T08:36:52Z jackdaniel: but I may be wrong on that, as I've said, I have mixed feelings about that. 2017-07-16T08:37:06Z jackdaniel: I have to redact blog post about EQL5 on Android to put it on ECL blog 2017-07-16T08:37:15Z jackdaniel: I'll check on latero / 2017-07-16T08:38:28Z loke: beach: Yes. I changed to a slash after I had too many annoying names where both the class name and slot names had minus signs in them, like user-manager-status-signature-type (just an invented name) 2017-07-16T08:38:28Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, natural languages evolve despite the existence of a centralized mechanism. 2017-07-16T08:38:58Z loke: You can't tell where to split between class anem slot 2017-07-16T08:39:17Z beach: loke: I much prefer the simple solution: (parent sheet) (parent gadget) (parent pane) 2017-07-16T08:39:44Z loke: beach: Yes. I'm starting to agree with that. It's just that I haven't reached the point where I change yet. 2017-07-16T08:39:50Z loke: Perhaps on my next project? 2017-07-16T08:39:58Z beach: No rush. :) 2017-07-16T08:40:21Z loke: I also kinda like the slotname-OF style... as in (name :accessor name-of) 2017-07-16T08:40:33Z beach: Hmm, now I wonder whether the class-slot convention was inherited from structs. 2017-07-16T08:40:46Z loke: beach: Almost certainly. 2017-07-16T08:41:04Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:41:17Z beach: Structs probably typically didn't have as deep an inheritance graph as standard classes do, which is why it was less problematic for structs. 2017-07-16T08:41:40Z loke: Indeed 2017-07-16T08:42:55Z beach: jackdaniel: I meant "Yet, natural languages...". 2017-07-16T08:43:55Z loke: Is there any rational reason to even have structs in CL (other than backwards compatibility?) 2017-07-16T08:44:18Z beach: Supposedly the can have better performance. 2017-07-16T08:44:32Z shka: well, I adopted const interface convention from LIL 2017-07-16T08:44:38Z beach: Because of the allowed restrictions on semantics, no indirection is required. 2017-07-16T08:44:47Z shka: but nobody else did :D 2017-07-16T08:44:55Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:45:33Z jackdaniel: I believe (that would require proper research to claim it though), that new words start with an individual who comes up with new word / construct, then with his closest circle of friends (internet speeds it up) - sometimes despised by others (i.e adults) as not clean language, and then it spreads further - gradually 2017-07-16T08:45:36Z beach: shka: You (and everyone else) can of course do whatever you want in your own code. The problems arise when unconventional code is submitted to others. 2017-07-16T08:46:00Z shka: yup 2017-07-16T08:46:19Z beach: jackdaniel: Pinker did the research. again, I recommend his writing and hist talks related to his book about style. 2017-07-16T08:46:24Z jackdaniel: sometimes it is that only the next generation uses the new word / construct, but with time it becomes part of the "official" and "agreed" language 2017-07-16T08:46:48Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, that's definitely part of the mechanism. 2017-07-16T08:47:55Z jackdaniel: so it is withtout the centralized mechanism, yet it is not: most people find it useful, so they start to use it. It's just more and more people use it until it is acceptable 2017-07-16T08:48:40Z jackdaniel: if the circle of the individual friend wouldn't spread the new word, it wouldn't exist outside his own dictionary, hence language evolution would be stopped 2017-07-16T08:48:46Z shka: anyway, i think that most of us have private style 2017-07-16T08:48:55Z shka: and no matter what, it will stay this way 2017-07-16T08:49:10Z jackdaniel: s/individual friend/individual friends/ 2017-07-16T08:49:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:49:57Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T08:50:03Z Guest47238 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T08:50:04Z beach: shka: Sure, just don't submit your code for others to read. 2017-07-16T08:50:11Z shka: but at the very least it would be nice to point out one and say "this one does not totally suck" 2017-07-16T08:50:16Z beach warned you that he is in a rotten mood. 2017-07-16T08:50:55Z shka: oh, well 2017-07-16T08:51:16Z shka: i hope that you will feel better soon :-) 2017-07-16T08:51:23Z beach: I will, thanks. 2017-07-16T08:51:42Z beach: Now I will go fix lunch for the guests that are due to arrive in a few minutes. 2017-07-16T08:53:01Z shka: this explains rotten mood? :D 2017-07-16T08:56:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T08:56:27Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T08:56:30Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T08:56:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:57:04Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:58:02Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T08:58:46Z mson_ is now known as mson 2017-07-16T09:00:00Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:00:01Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T09:00:03Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-16T09:01:22Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:01:34Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:05:04Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:08:50Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:09:35Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:09:52Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T09:11:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:12:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:19:56Z d4ryus2 is now known as d4ryus 2017-07-16T09:26:21Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:26:21Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-16T09:26:21Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:29:51Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-16T09:30:33Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:31:15Z whartung joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:32:54Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:33:01Z akr[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:33:24Z akr[m]: Hello 2017-07-16T09:33:39Z akr[m]: how do I search for what a function does? Is there some canonical resource? 2017-07-16T09:34:11Z akr[m]: I don't even know whether it comes from some library, this project, or is standard 2017-07-16T09:34:15Z akr[m]: the function is `with-assoc-values2` 2017-07-16T09:34:20Z akr[m]: google can't find it :< 2017-07-16T09:34:55Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:35:44Z axion: That naming convention suggests it is not a function 2017-07-16T09:36:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:36:14Z akr[m]: the with- part suggests it's a macro? 2017-07-16T09:36:37Z axion: Right 2017-07-16T09:36:53Z akr[m]: okay, still, how do I find it's definition / docs / something 2017-07-16T09:37:07Z akr[m]: just did a grep in the project, looks like it's not from here 2017-07-16T09:37:53Z axion: So, what is the package prefix? 2017-07-16T09:38:04Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:38:06Z akr[m]: there isn't one 2017-07-16T09:38:33Z axion: Well unless you are using use-package or the equivalent, all symbols will be prefixed by the package they are defined in, if it isn't current, and isn't a keyword, as far as I know. 2017-07-16T09:39:06Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:39:09Z akr[m]: hmm, there is only an `in-package` at the top of the file 2017-07-16T09:39:35Z axion: Why don't you just invoke DOCUMENTATION or DESCRIBE on the symbol? 2017-07-16T09:39:50Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:40:44Z akr[m]: I need slime for that, right? 2017-07-16T09:41:54Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-16T09:41:54Z akr[m]: sorry, I'm a bit of a CL noob 2017-07-16T09:41:55Z axion: No, but you should most definitely be using it anyway. You could M-. to jump to the definition if you were, but I was giving a general approach 2017-07-16T09:42:04Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T09:42:29Z akr[m]: yeah, I tried jump to the definition, but emacs says that no handler could find it or something 2017-07-16T09:43:41Z axion: Then slime/sly are not installed properly. I would go back to the beginning and start there. Without it, you will be lost. Even seasoned Common Lisp developers rely on it greatly...it is a staple. 2017-07-16T09:45:38Z akr[m]: when I try to disassemble symbol on it, I get 'The function COMMON-LISP-USER::WITH-ASSOC-VALUES2 is undefined' 2017-07-16T09:47:51Z axion: That's because I already mentioned it is not a function, and why would you want to view the disassembly of it anyway? 2017-07-16T09:48:26Z akr[m]: not sure how slime is supposed to handle dependencies, this project doesn't use quicklisp, it just passes the path to dependencies as --asdf-tree to buildapp 2017-07-16T09:49:04Z axion: You are going about everything the wrong way 2017-07-16T09:49:22Z akr[m]: well, I wasn't there when this project was setup :( 2017-07-16T09:50:23Z cods quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T09:51:02Z axion: If you are new to Common Lisp as you say you are, your first step should be installing and configuring SLIME and Quicklisp. Second step is to read Practical Common Lisp. The only other way leads to the path of frustration 2017-07-16T09:51:33Z akr[m]: well, I've written a bit in some other lisps, I just find the package ecosystem confusing 2017-07-16T09:51:36Z akr[m]: in CL 2017-07-16T09:51:50Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:52:07Z axion: Then you haven't bothered with step 2 2017-07-16T09:52:30Z akr[m]: no, I thought I might be able to skip it :P 2017-07-16T09:52:37Z akr[m]: or at least do it later 2017-07-16T09:53:15Z nydel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T09:53:31Z akr[m]: ah okay I remember that book now, I've read a few chapters 2017-07-16T09:53:41Z hexfive quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T09:53:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:53:52Z akr[m]: I guess I wanna read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 2017-07-16T09:54:46Z axion: That book is very linear in nature. You should read it front to back and do all the practicals. 2017-07-16T09:55:03Z axion: Skipping around doesn't really help you, considering the questions you already asked. 2017-07-16T09:56:26Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-16T09:56:28Z Ven is now known as Guest11421 2017-07-16T09:56:29Z akr[m]: idk, do I really need to read about variables an basic data types and I/O? 2017-07-16T09:56:56Z akr[m]: lists, even 2017-07-16T10:00:21Z axion: I think you can decide whether or not you know how to manipulate cons cells well enough to skip one of the most important chapters and practical hands on experience. 2017-07-16T10:01:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T10:01:46Z Guest11421 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T10:03:15Z akr[m]: okay, well, thanks for the info anyway 2017-07-16T10:03:26Z akr[m]: I'll be honest though, I don't really have the time to read the whole book atm 2017-07-16T10:04:22Z axion: http://weitz.de/packages.html 2017-07-16T10:05:05Z axion: Then read that for now, but if you want to learn a language, set some time aside for it :) 2017-07-16T10:06:12Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:12:09Z Lowl3v3l left #lisp 2017-07-16T10:13:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:16:35Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:21:49Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:22:31Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:23:59Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:26:24Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T10:30:01Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:33:27Z chat____4 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T10:39:18Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:40:02Z Ven_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T10:41:38Z akr[m]: axion: great, thank you :) 2017-07-16T10:41:52Z akr[m]: yeah I probably will have to learn CL in more detail sooner or later 2017-07-16T10:48:09Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T10:49:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T10:50:47Z cods joined #lisp 2017-07-16T10:56:45Z cods quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T10:57:04Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:00:03Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T11:02:31Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:02:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:04:12Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T11:04:28Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T11:04:33Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T11:08:07Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-16T11:11:50Z ikki joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:17:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:21:25Z guilty joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:24:37Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T11:25:12Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T11:25:25Z whartung joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:33:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:38:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T11:43:03Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T11:43:59Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-16T11:47:32Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:48:55Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-16T11:54:11Z attila_lendvai left #lisp 2017-07-16T11:54:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:09:06Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T12:17:22Z heurist` is now known as heurist 2017-07-16T12:18:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T12:22:33Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:24:48Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T12:25:15Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:28:36Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:33:09Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:33:12Z clintm: Xach: if you have a free second at some point, I have a question re. amazon and request signing that, from looking at the irc logs, it looks like you have run in to as well. 2017-07-16T12:34:42Z Xach: clintm: oukkei! 2017-07-16T12:34:54Z Xach: I thought I had it all worked out lately 2017-07-16T12:36:18Z clintm: Oh, no, your code is fine. It's my code that's throwing errors. I have a signed request url *that works in the scratchpad* but doesn't when I try to fetch it with drakma. I have sys locale set to utf8, content is charset=utf8, but I still get signaturedoesnotmatch errors. 2017-07-16T12:36:30Z Xach: scratchpad? 2017-07-16T12:36:43Z Xach: Is this for S3 or something else? 2017-07-16T12:36:50Z clintm: Yea, for this api there's a "try your url and confirm your signature, etc". 2017-07-16T12:37:02Z clintm: It's for the product advertising api. 2017-07-16T12:37:55Z Xach: Hmm, when that happens, I usually have to stare carefully at the "you signed"/"we signed" output 2017-07-16T12:38:41Z clintm: Ok, so there's not tribal knowledge with drakma and amazon requests that I'm missing then... as usual, the problem is me. hehe. 2017-07-16T12:39:07Z clintm: s/not/no 2017-07-16T12:39:36Z Xach: 87% of the time it ends up being something silly for me, like missing a field or something. 2017-07-16T12:40:21Z takuya joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:41:31Z clintm: That's what I thought, until I tested the signed url that I generated in their tool. I'll go get coffee, come back and stare at it, think really hard, and it'll probably come to me. Actually, it'll probably come to me when I stop thinking about it. That's how it usually works. 2017-07-16T12:44:47Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T12:47:14Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:47:28Z Xach: clintm: i have made the most progress with diffing the "we signed" thing 2017-07-16T12:48:54Z ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 2017-07-16T12:50:03Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T12:52:59Z loke: Xach: I recall having issues with that stuff too, until I didn't. :-) 2017-07-16T12:53:07Z takuya left #lisp 2017-07-16T12:53:23Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T12:56:33Z whartung joined #lisp 2017-07-16T12:57:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:02:25Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:03:12Z ikki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T13:04:27Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T13:07:43Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:08:38Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:19:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T13:19:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:20:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T13:20:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:24:16Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:31:32Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:35:33Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:46:09Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T13:48:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T13:51:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-16T13:57:37Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-16T14:04:01Z mulk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T14:10:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T14:17:37Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-16T14:18:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T14:23:56Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T14:27:20Z mulk joined #lisp 2017-07-16T14:28:50Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T14:33:09Z tak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T14:40:05Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-16T14:41:12Z phoe: The land of C is such a weird one. 2017-07-16T14:41:24Z phoe: ESPECIALLY when revisited from an interactive land, such as the Lisp REPL. 2017-07-16T14:42:38Z phoe: Suddenly, I don't write programs in Notepad and compile them with gcc. I can play with C interactively, from the REPL, instantiate structures, poke and peek memory locations. 2017-07-16T14:43:01Z phoe: When they were teaching me C, why the hell didn't they teach it *this* way? 2017-07-16T14:43:12Z phoe ranting, is using CFFI for the first time in his life. 2017-07-16T14:43:18Z dispersed: normal people can run C in their minds 2017-07-16T14:43:37Z dispersed: C with the mind's eye 2017-07-16T14:43:44Z phoe: that was a terrible pun 2017-07-16T14:43:49Z phoe: (incf dispersed) 2017-07-16T14:44:45Z dispersed: all but thank you 2017-07-16T14:48:27Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-16T15:04:20Z pjb: dispersed: normal people cannot run C in their minds. They can only imagine they can run it, and they're wrong, wrong and wrong. 2017-07-16T15:07:12Z dispersed: yeah you're right it's more like chilling out 2017-07-16T15:07:23Z dispersed: running conveys a panicky feeling you don't get with C 2017-07-16T15:08:01Z dispersed: Simply open your mind's eye and C for yourself. 2017-07-16T15:08:12Z dispersed: it's all in the void 2017-07-16T15:08:45Z dispersed: the main function of existence 2017-07-16T15:10:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T15:11:29Z mulk quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-16T15:15:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T15:18:57Z mulk joined #lisp 2017-07-16T15:38:24Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-16T15:38:34Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-16T15:39:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T15:39:40Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T15:42:33Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T15:54:49Z tetero: wtf are you talking about? 2017-07-16T15:55:18Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-16T15:56:03Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T15:56:54Z nosefouratyou_: phoe: you are programming c in a repl?!? 2017-07-16T15:57:31Z tetero: using python* 2017-07-16T15:57:44Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T15:58:51Z tetero: Oh there's a LISP CFFI too. Cool. 2017-07-16T15:59:11Z nosefouratyou_: phoe: the only way I've read about doing c interactively is http://nullprogram.com/blog/2014/12/23/ and cling 2017-07-16T15:59:45Z akr[m] left #lisp 2017-07-16T16:03:42Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:04:14Z Oddity joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:04:32Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2017-07-16T16:04:32Z Oddity joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:04:57Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T16:09:41Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T16:10:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:10:58Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:11:23Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:12:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T16:14:31Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T16:16:53Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T16:17:12Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T16:20:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:22:54Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-16T16:30:46Z jurov had eureka moment: what if running C in one's mind is the cause of its undefined behaviour? 2017-07-16T16:31:31Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:39:32Z phoe: nosefouratyou_: I'm not programming C directly, I'm interfacing with C in Lisp REPL. 2017-07-16T16:39:40Z phoe: Which is fairly close. 2017-07-16T16:39:59Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-16T16:51:16Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-16T16:52:48Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T16:53:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:54:06Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:56:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T16:56:31Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:56:38Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-16T16:57:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:03:02Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T17:03:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:06:24Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:08:22Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T17:09:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T17:09:32Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:10:02Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:12:29Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-16T17:16:53Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:19:02Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:22:46Z neoncontrails quit 2017-07-16T17:23:26Z casper_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:23:46Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:26:57Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T17:33:10Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:37:29Z teggi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T17:44:31Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T17:49:49Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:53:52Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-16T17:53:59Z cods joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:54:05Z guilty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T17:54:38Z cods quit (Changing host) 2017-07-16T17:54:38Z cods joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:55:27Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:58:56Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T17:59:00Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:59:00Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2017-07-16T17:59:00Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-16T17:59:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:01:29Z nosefouratyou_: I have the following code https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/b7cb0cecab882478cc3c63c6a4374e4c and I have a bug 2017-07-16T18:01:58Z nosefouratyou_: (format t ":before completed for agent ~a and event ~a~%" a e) runs at the end of update :before, but I get an error before update is called 2017-07-16T18:02:19Z nosefouratyou_: so it never prints got here3 2017-07-16T18:03:04Z nosefouratyou_: the error is here https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/0327648eb08efb0d3817b050cad41564 2017-07-16T18:04:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:06:48Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-07-16T18:08:15Z beach: nosefouratyou_: Something else seems to be executing between the two. Something that allocates an instance of TRANSITION, passing the wrong initarg. 2017-07-16T18:08:37Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T18:09:00Z nosefouratyou_: beach: but how could something run between :before and the main method? I was under the impression it went :update method -> normal method -> :after method 2017-07-16T18:09:13Z nosefouratyou_: I mean it's not like I am using multithreading 2017-07-16T18:09:26Z beach: There could be another :BEFORE method. 2017-07-16T18:09:46Z nosefouratyou_: beach: I don't follow 2017-07-16T18:09:48Z beach: What happens when you inspect the result of #'UPDATE. 2017-07-16T18:10:10Z beach: nosefouratyou_: If there are several :BEFORE methods, they all run before the primary method. 2017-07-16T18:10:11Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-16T18:11:23Z nosefouratyou_: beach: I know you are trying to help, and I appreciate that, but I am pretty dumb at cl at the moment. How would I inspect the value of #'update? 2017-07-16T18:12:03Z beach: You type #'UPDATE in the SLIME REPL and then you click with your right mouse button on the presentation that resulted. 2017-07-16T18:12:51Z beach: From the menu, you select "inspect". 2017-07-16T18:14:31Z beach: Do you see the methods? 2017-07-16T18:15:42Z lucar joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:16:14Z beach: nosefouratyou_: Hello? 2017-07-16T18:16:18Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:16:20Z nosefouratyou_: beach: sorry 2017-07-16T18:16:36Z nosefouratyou_: right click on #'update in the repl? My right click doesn't work I guess 2017-07-16T18:16:36Z lucar: Hi did anybody tried to play with this: https://github.com/blakemcbride/eclipse-lisp 2017-07-16T18:16:40Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:16:52Z beach: nosefouratyou_: Are you using SLIME? 2017-07-16T18:16:55Z lucar: I managed to compile the c code but didn't succeed in compiling the lisp part 2017-07-16T18:16:56Z nosefouratyou_: yes 2017-07-16T18:17:18Z beach: And the stuff that resulted from #'update is colored red? 2017-07-16T18:18:09Z nosefouratyou_: beach: I am sorry but I don't understand 2017-07-16T18:18:09Z beach: I didn't say click on #'update. 2017-07-16T18:18:24Z beach: I said, type #'update followed by a RETURN. 2017-07-16T18:18:27Z nosefouratyou_: oh 2017-07-16T18:18:46Z beach: You should see a red presentation that says something like 2017-07-16T18:19:45Z nosefouratyou_: it's in a package, so I am doing (pat::update) and I get an error saying Too few arguments to call 2017-07-16T18:19:59Z beach: Don't call it. 2017-07-16T18:20:06Z beach: #'pat::update then. 2017-07-16T18:20:17Z beach: You want to inspect the function, not call it. 2017-07-16T18:20:46Z nosefouratyou_: beach: okay, I got that 2017-07-16T18:20:58Z nosefouratyou_: this is the output https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/6a4b670982f3d61e254f4be4359a94ab 2017-07-16T18:20:59Z beach: Do yo see the methods now? 2017-07-16T18:21:29Z beach: OK, click on that red presentation with the right mouse button and select inspect. 2017-07-16T18:21:45Z nosefouratyou_: beach: okay I got there! 2017-07-16T18:21:46Z nosefouratyou_: cool 2017-07-16T18:21:58Z beach: What methods do you see? 2017-07-16T18:22:04Z beach: Are there any more than you expected? 2017-07-16T18:22:07Z nosefouratyou_: this is what I see: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/388d36b84970a56d049938198a8244d1 2017-07-16T18:23:40Z nosefouratyou_: I have no clue what to make of it though 2017-07-16T18:23:52Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:24:09Z beach: Well, in your backtrace, a method is called, and it is this one: (# # #) 2017-07-16T18:24:48Z beach: That method is calling SETFSM which calls make-instance, and that's where it goes wrong. 2017-07-16T18:24:57Z beach: Because the make-instance is using an invalid INITARG. 2017-07-16T18:25:25Z nosefouratyou_: beach: thank you so much 2017-07-16T18:25:47Z beach: I am not used to interpreting CCL backtraces, so I can't see more than that. 2017-07-16T18:25:56Z beach: Did you find the problem? 2017-07-16T18:26:21Z nosefouratyou_: beach: no I am still looking 2017-07-16T18:26:43Z beach: It is in a method that you didn't show us in your listing. 2017-07-16T18:27:06Z mson_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:27:26Z beach: maybe look for a call to SETFSM in a method on UPDATE. 2017-07-16T18:28:01Z beach: Or rather, look for a method on SETFSM that calls MAKE-INSTANCE. 2017-07-16T18:28:30Z beach: I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family. Hope you find it with these additional hints. 2017-07-16T18:30:01Z beach: Or tell me where I can find the code. 2017-07-16T18:30:54Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T18:32:36Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:33:56Z beach: Ah, it's this method: (FSMAGENT MARKETUPDATE) 2017-07-16T18:34:29Z beach: You should find a (defmethod update ((x fsmagent) (y marketupdate)) ...) somewhere. 2017-07-16T18:35:14Z nosefouratyou_: I recommend buying the book though 2017-07-16T18:36:15Z beach: That method calls SETSFM. 2017-07-16T18:36:57Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T18:37:06Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:37:08Z beach: There should be a (defmethod SETFSM ((x tickbargenerator)) ...) 2017-07-16T18:38:13Z beach: That method calls MAKE-INSTANCE. 2017-07-16T18:40:21Z beach: And one of the initialization arguments that it passes is invalid. It seems to be passing an object of type TRANSITION to make-instance. 2017-07-16T18:40:39Z beach: Anyway, not I REALLY have to go. 2017-07-16T18:40:42Z nosefouratyou_: okay, thanks for the help 2017-07-16T18:40:49Z beach: Sure. Good luck. 2017-07-16T18:41:23Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-16T18:41:35Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T18:43:00Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T18:44:42Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-16T18:45:02Z lucar quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-16T18:47:23Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-16T18:52:51Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:53:10Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-16T18:53:30Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:53:37Z papachan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T18:53:55Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T18:53:59Z PuercoPop: phoe: the top comment in the /r/lisp post is not saying no to the concept of a guide, but to the ones proposed. "Don't talk unless you can improve the silence". The awesome-foo guides tend to be more focus on aggregation than curation. They even link to ariel-network's style guide that recommends the @ reader-macro!. 2017-07-16T18:56:22Z PuercoPop: Of the 3, the lisp-lang one seems best but it steps into personal preferences of the author like recommendin one package per file or use of the type slot (or the accessor option being first). 2017-07-16T19:02:50Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:08:01Z zacts is now known as reasoningircbot 2017-07-16T19:08:45Z reasoningircbot is now known as zacts 2017-07-16T19:09:56Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:12:20Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T19:13:39Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-16T19:15:01Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-16T19:16:49Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T19:18:50Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:19:40Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:21:36Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:21:54Z phoe: PuercoPop: this comment effectively says "none of the listed" to my question, "which one should be on top". 2017-07-16T19:22:32Z shka: phoe: which one did you listed? 2017-07-16T19:23:01Z phoe: shka: I did not, https://github.com/Kristories/awesome-guidelines listed them. 2017-07-16T19:23:11Z shka: ok, let's see 2017-07-16T19:23:39Z nowhere_man quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-16T19:23:57Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:25:17Z shka: heh, no wonder people don't seem to like those 2017-07-16T19:27:09Z shka: well, google codes style is not that bad 2017-07-16T19:27:27Z shka: others are just very specific 2017-07-16T19:27:51Z shka: why the heck somebody cares if i write :type or :reader first 2017-07-16T19:28:31Z shka: personally i'm trying to follow style from SICL docs mostly 2017-07-16T19:28:39Z shka: with just minor changes 2017-07-16T19:29:09Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-16T19:34:28Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T19:36:07Z mson_ is now known as mson 2017-07-16T19:41:48Z PuercoPop: phoe: yes, but I don't think that is troublesome 2017-07-16T19:42:23Z PuercoPop: shka: you shouldn't but afaict the convention is initarg->iniform->accesor->type->documentation 2017-07-16T19:45:07Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:46:30Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T19:48:22Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T19:48:38Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T19:49:12Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:55:32Z nosefouratyou_: I have the following code: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/5b31ef28f8673af3ef55b39c8bea3f9b and when I try to inspect j I get "Unbound variable: J" 2017-07-16T19:57:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T19:58:14Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-16T19:58:44Z Bike: is j proclaimed special somewhere? (defvar j)? or do you just setf it? 2017-07-16T20:02:27Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T20:02:54Z phoe: what is j? if it's a lexical variable, why did not you declare it? 2017-07-16T20:07:03Z nosefouratyou_: I just setf it 2017-07-16T20:07:25Z nosefouratyou_: sometimes I *can* inspect it, but I really don't know what I am doing so it's hard to recreate 2017-07-16T20:16:03Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:16:25Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T20:17:23Z Bike: just having (setf foo ...) with no prior mention of foo is bad. doesn't your compiler warn you? 2017-07-16T20:19:18Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-16T20:30:07Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:31:26Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:35:53Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:37:31Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:41:29Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T20:42:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:46:58Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T20:49:34Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:50:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:52:32Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T20:53:22Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-16T20:59:57Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:02:43Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T21:04:29Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:05:57Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-16T21:09:08Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-16T21:12:33Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T21:14:35Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T21:15:14Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-07-16T21:15:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:16:48Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T21:17:19Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-16T21:17:49Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:18:00Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:19:28Z S1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T21:20:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T21:21:28Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:28:36Z sondr3 quit (Quit: Quit) 2017-07-16T21:29:11Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T21:31:05Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T21:38:15Z phoe: Hah, CFFI is just like everything else. 2017-07-16T21:38:20Z phoe: Contains undocumented features. 2017-07-16T21:38:38Z phoe just found WITH-FOREIGN-ARRAY. 2017-07-16T21:40:46Z WhiskyRyan: I am an undergraduate CS student and find common lisp fascinating and am studying it in my free time. My school uses mainly Java, but my instructor encourages completing assignments in lisp for extra credit. While learning common lisp I am finding that most of the texts are fairly old (yet still relevant) and am wondering if it is still used by any major companies or industries? If I wanted to actually work with lisp one day is 2017-07-16T21:40:47Z WhiskyRyan: common lisp a viable option or are the new languages like Clojure more common/taking over now? 2017-07-16T21:44:19Z pjb: There are companies using Common Lisp. 2017-07-16T21:44:48Z pjb: You could certainly start up a company and decide to use Common Lisp today (this is what I would do). 2017-07-16T21:45:37Z pjb: https://franz.com/success/ 2017-07-16T21:47:13Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-16T21:47:36Z WhiskyRyan: pjb: Thanks. Is Franz the most common commercial implementation of common lisp? I am mainly using SBCL while learning. 2017-07-16T21:48:41Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:48:50Z pjb: Not necessarily. Lispworks also has a big marketshare, and there are a few other commercial implementations. 2017-07-16T21:48:59Z pjb: I prefer to use ccl, but sbcl is all right. 2017-07-16T21:50:27Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:50:35Z WhiskyRyan: pjb: Why do you prefer ccl over sbcl? 2017-07-16T21:51:09Z mm__: im curious too 2017-07-16T21:51:26Z phoe: WhiskyRyan: it has a faster compiler, as in, it takes less time to compile programs. 2017-07-16T21:51:43Z phoe: Also, it seems to have slightly better debug capabilities and stacktraces. 2017-07-16T21:51:57Z phoe: But I'm not a specialist - I'm used to SBCL and not complaining. 2017-07-16T21:52:03Z mm__: is clisp faster even than ccl? 2017-07-16T21:52:41Z pjb: I mostly work on MacOSX currently; ccl has a nice Objective-C bridge. 2017-07-16T21:52:42Z phoe: CLISP is an interpreted (by default) implementation, so the code it produces will be slower. 2017-07-16T21:53:03Z pjb: mm__: clisp is faster to load than ccl, so I use it for all my scripts. 2017-07-16T21:53:39Z phoe: But then, it has no compilation overhead, because it's an interpreted (by default) implementation. So exactly what pjb said. 2017-07-16T21:53:45Z mm__: i see speed of clisp while compilying sbcl 2017-07-16T21:53:54Z phoe: I mean, not exactly. Complimentary. 2017-07-16T21:54:24Z WhiskyRyan: I started with CLISP but found it to be orders of magnitude slower for some example programs in a book I read than SBCL. Is the speed of the compiled code for CCL comparable to SBCL? 2017-07-16T21:54:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T21:55:18Z pjb: WhiskyRyan: yes, same order of magnitude: both are native compilers. 2017-07-16T21:55:25Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T21:55:33Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:55:33Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-16T21:55:33Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-16T21:55:47Z mm__: WhiskyRyan, from which book you take those examples? 2017-07-16T21:56:08Z WhiskyRyan: looks like it is on homebrew so I will try it out now. 2017-07-16T21:57:15Z phoe: Does anyone know the proper type syntax for CFFI:WITH-FOREIGN-ARRAY? 2017-07-16T21:58:10Z phoe: I have a (array (unsigned-byte 8) N). I want to turn it into a foreign array for C usage. 2017-07-16T21:58:27Z phoe: And, as I've mentioned before, the feature is very much undocumented. 2017-07-16T21:58:55Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-16T22:01:23Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:01:37Z phoe: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/src/types.lisp#L435 2017-07-16T22:02:17Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T22:04:12Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:05:06Z clintm: Xach: In case someone is looking for this same problem and the irc log comes up in their search, the solution is to pass :preserve-uri to drakma:http-request so that it doesn't re-encode params in the url. 2017-07-16T22:09:27Z clintm: I guess that was like 4 hours ago, but still. 2017-07-16T22:10:50Z phoe: Found it. (:array :unsigned-char N) 2017-07-16T22:12:19Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-16T22:14:29Z al-damiri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T22:16:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:17:41Z gbyers joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:19:20Z gendl joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:20:12Z tobel joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:20:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T22:21:14Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T22:22:34Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:22:38Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T22:22:38Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:24:08Z rann joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:24:24Z bugrum joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:24:39Z ebrasca left #lisp 2017-07-16T22:24:41Z redcedar joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:27:06Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:29:41Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:29:46Z joeygibson joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:30:20Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:35:44Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T22:46:24Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-16T22:46:33Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T22:49:20Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T22:50:35Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:50:44Z phoe: this is unusual 2017-07-16T22:50:59Z phoe: I got dropped into LDB, but the slime-macroexpand is still working 2017-07-16T22:51:15Z phoe: does SBCL's LDB only affect a single thread or something? 2017-07-16T22:56:58Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-16T22:57:50Z tak_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-16T22:59:40Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-16T23:07:19Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-16T23:11:36Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T23:12:27Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T23:13:02Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-16T23:16:12Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-16T23:17:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-16T23:17:34Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-16T23:24:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-16T23:25:10Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-16T23:45:59Z jimmyhu joined #lisp 2017-07-16T23:46:07Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-16T23:47:21Z jimmyhu quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T23:47:32Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-16T23:47:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-16T23:48:49Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T00:07:25Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-17T00:07:57Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T00:16:25Z nosefouratyou_: why am I getting this error?: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/b9d99a6c18f7557b6c26eda9a7a70ee7 2017-07-17T00:20:31Z Bike: you pass the macro-function the symbol AGENT-SPECS 2017-07-17T00:20:33Z Bike: w 2017-07-17T00:20:33Z Bike: h 2017-07-17T00:20:38Z Bike: ich can't destructure right 2017-07-17T00:21:00Z Bike: maybe you mean for the destructuring to occur at runtime? 2017-07-17T00:21:12Z Bike: in which case instantiate-agent should basically be a function 2017-07-17T00:21:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-17T00:25:38Z nosefouratyou_: Bike: good point, I am trying to turn into a function now 2017-07-17T00:26:42Z pjb quit (Quit: good night.) 2017-07-17T00:27:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T00:31:14Z Xach: clintm: thanks! 2017-07-17T00:31:31Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T00:34:39Z nosefouratyou_: how do you escape a list? I have something like (:asdf 1 :boo 2) and I want :asdf 1 :boo 2 2017-07-17T00:34:47Z nosefouratyou_: I am trying `,@agent-specs but that's not working 2017-07-17T00:35:05Z Bike: :asdf 1 :boo 2 is just four objects. 2017-07-17T00:35:14Z Xach: nosefouratyou_: ,@ is the usual way to splice a list into a template. 2017-07-17T00:35:15Z Bike: it's not, like, a thing in itself. 2017-07-17T00:35:27Z Bike: are you trying to use them as arguments to a call? 2017-07-17T00:36:09Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-17T00:40:24Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T00:43:48Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T00:46:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-17T00:46:50Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T00:47:00Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2017-07-17T00:48:30Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-17T00:49:46Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-17T00:51:02Z nosefouratyou_: I want to call (fun :a 1 :b 2) and I have a list (:a 1 :b 2) 2017-07-17T00:54:41Z Bike: (apply #'fun list) 2017-07-17T00:55:55Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T00:59:57Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T01:05:15Z tak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T01:07:53Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-17T01:16:01Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T01:16:11Z aceluck quit 2017-07-17T01:18:13Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T01:20:33Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T01:21:37Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T01:24:48Z nosefouratyou_: what's a good logging library for cl 2017-07-17T01:24:56Z nosefouratyou_: bike: thank you for that, apply was the key to solving my problem 2017-07-17T01:25:17Z nosefouratyou_: I tried logv and it didn't work that well 2017-07-17T01:25:32Z axion: Depends what you need from a logging library, and what logging actually means 2017-07-17T01:25:37Z axion: log to file, log to stdout, etc 2017-07-17T01:26:29Z edgar-rft: AFAIK logging is cutting trees with an axe or a saw 2017-07-17T01:28:08Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-17T01:29:03Z nosefouratyou_: I'm looking for both I think if possible 2017-07-17T01:29:09Z nosefouratyou_: I mean optionally logging to a file 2017-07-17T01:29:45Z axion: I would not use mine then. Shinmera's verbose is what you want. 2017-07-17T01:29:53Z axion: Available in Quicklisp 2017-07-17T01:31:12Z nosefouratyou_: axion: wow verbose looks very featureful, thank you 2017-07-17T01:40:20Z grublet is now known as milkfarts 2017-07-17T01:43:11Z milkfarts is now known as grublet 2017-07-17T01:47:44Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-17T01:48:19Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T01:49:06Z nydel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T02:00:09Z mm__ left #lisp 2017-07-17T02:18:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T02:19:27Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T02:25:32Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T02:28:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-17T02:32:31Z fkae joined #lisp 2017-07-17T02:32:56Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T02:34:57Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T02:40:34Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-17T02:41:40Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T02:43:13Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-17T02:48:36Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-17T03:05:49Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:08:39Z handlex quit (Quit: handlex) 2017-07-17T03:10:57Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:12:07Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-17T03:15:13Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T03:18:14Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:20:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:22:15Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T03:45:15Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T03:48:57Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:49:15Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:49:56Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:50:35Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:51:36Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T03:53:02Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-17T03:55:21Z handlex quit (Quit: handlex) 2017-07-17T03:56:11Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-17T03:58:21Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T04:01:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T04:03:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T04:10:47Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-17T04:15:46Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-17T04:25:02Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T04:25:06Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T04:26:59Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T04:27:03Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T04:34:13Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T04:36:00Z MetaHert` joined #lisp 2017-07-17T04:37:35Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-17T04:37:40Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-17T04:38:57Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-17T04:48:05Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T04:48:25Z rk[ghost] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T04:48:31Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T04:49:32Z tak_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-17T04:54:57Z rk[ghost] joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:02:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-17T05:05:01Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:05:26Z hexfive quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-17T05:06:21Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:06:40Z JuanDaugherty quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T05:07:40Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:07:50Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T05:10:08Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:15:44Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:18:10Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T05:18:49Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T05:20:40Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:26:46Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-17T05:32:27Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:37:19Z azzamsa quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T05:38:27Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/fEZGAUt.png 2017-07-17T05:38:50Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:39:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:39:41Z drmeister: What you can't see is that you can rotate and zoom that structure. 2017-07-17T05:40:34Z drmeister: It's a complex widget called 'nglview' running within Cando(Common Lisp) within a jupyter notebook. 2017-07-17T05:41:12Z otwieracz: drmeister: Is CLASP anywhere near „production ready”? 2017-07-17T05:41:52Z akkad: hah 2017-07-17T05:41:55Z drmeister: Not yet 2017-07-17T05:42:13Z akkad: c++ 2017-07-17T05:42:18Z drmeister: I use it all the time though. 2017-07-17T05:44:23Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T05:44:30Z casper_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T05:45:50Z akkad: making great progress 2017-07-17T05:46:53Z drmeister: A reason to use it is if you have C++ libraries you want to drive from Common Lisp. Nobody has taken me up on that lately. 2017-07-17T05:47:45Z drmeister: I'm developing it as a computer aided molecular design environment. That requires a lot more than just Common Lisp - that's what I've been working on. 2017-07-17T05:50:35Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T05:50:58Z otwieracz: Yep, I've got the context. I was just curious about current status. 2017-07-17T05:53:52Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-17T06:01:14Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-17T06:08:56Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T06:13:18Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-17T06:15:29Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T06:17:59Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T06:18:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T06:19:00Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T06:27:00Z azzamsa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T06:30:04Z modula joined #lisp 2017-07-17T06:32:04Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-17T06:32:59Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T06:33:00Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2017-07-17T06:47:32Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-17T06:48:21Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-17T06:55:25Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-17T07:00:23Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:01:30Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:04:08Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T07:04:14Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T07:10:47Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:10:52Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-17T07:13:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:21:16Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:21:16Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T07:22:39Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-07-17T07:25:34Z shiranuidong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-17T07:26:24Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:27:05Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-17T07:28:15Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:28:20Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:30:58Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:31:22Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:31:45Z Merv_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T07:42:32Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T07:44:12Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:44:59Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-17T07:46:46Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-17T07:47:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:05:21Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:05:49Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:06:30Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T08:08:21Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T08:10:02Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:18:19Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:22:57Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T08:23:48Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:26:32Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T08:34:10Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T08:34:47Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:35:02Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:41:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:41:24Z azzamsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T08:41:52Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:44:14Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T08:46:02Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:50:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T08:53:23Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T09:02:42Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-17T09:04:35Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T09:11:38Z azzamsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T09:14:12Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T09:17:48Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-07-17T09:19:40Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T09:24:23Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T09:37:07Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T09:44:49Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T09:52:49Z kjak_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-17T09:55:50Z caffe joined #lisp 2017-07-17T09:57:07Z caffe: hello, #lisp 2017-07-17T10:02:06Z loke: hello 2017-07-17T10:02:59Z beach: Hello caffe. 2017-07-17T10:04:16Z beach: caffe: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2017-07-17T10:04:24Z caffe: i am new, yes. 2017-07-17T10:04:38Z beach: Welcome, then. 2017-07-17T10:04:50Z caffe: thank you! 2017-07-17T10:04:55Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T10:06:06Z loke: Does "caffe" mean coffee in some language? 2017-07-17T10:06:52Z shka: caffe: enjoy your stay 2017-07-17T10:07:11Z caffe: i'm not entirely sure. 'cafe' seemed to be taken, so i went with caffe 2017-07-17T10:07:47Z joga thinks about neural networks 2017-07-17T10:08:50Z caffe: i took cafe from kraftwerk's electric cafe 2017-07-17T10:10:12Z loke: I saw Kraftwerk live in Singapore a number of years back. 2017-07-17T10:10:19Z caffe: thank you, shka. 2017-07-17T10:14:56Z caffe: i've never seen them live.. the videos of their shows look incredible 2017-07-17T10:15:23Z caffe: they don't seem to come to the states all too often 2017-07-17T10:15:38Z loke: caffe: It's worth a longer trip 2017-07-17T10:15:48Z loke: Just go to Europe and see them there 2017-07-17T10:17:15Z caffe: i might have to do that someday 2017-07-17T10:17:17Z varjag: seen kraftwerk here on their 2006 tour 2017-07-17T10:17:31Z varjag: the show was quite good alright 2017-07-17T10:18:35Z loke: The singapore one was really good too. I'll probbaly go to Europe and watch them again. 2017-07-17T10:19:06Z varjag: they must be old as rocks now 2017-07-17T10:19:18Z loke: older than me, yeah 2017-07-17T10:19:22Z loke: but still good 2017-07-17T10:20:01Z caffe: there's only one original member left in it now, iirc 2017-07-17T10:20:31Z loke: Yes 2017-07-17T10:20:36Z loke: That was the case when I saw them. 2017-07-17T10:22:06Z caffe: i'd also like to see jean-michel jarre someday, so i suppose europe would be necessary for making that happen anyway 2017-07-17T10:22:31Z loke: caffe: Travel from the us to europe is trivial and fast (and cheap) 2017-07-17T10:22:33Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T10:22:53Z loke: I travel to europe several times per year, and my travel time is twice as long as for the USians :-) 2017-07-17T10:23:55Z caffe: sounds like you're from down under? 2017-07-17T10:24:18Z loke: caffe: Singapore. 2017-07-17T10:24:32Z loke: 14 hours flight time for me. 2017-07-17T10:24:39Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-17T10:24:46Z loke: new york to paris is only 6 hours, if I recall correctly. 2017-07-17T10:25:20Z caffe: that's it? 2017-07-17T10:26:21Z caffe: i thought it was 10-12 hours from NY to London 2017-07-17T10:26:25Z loke: Hmm.. 7:25. 2017-07-17T10:26:35Z caffe: wow, that's impressive 2017-07-17T10:26:40Z loke: ny london is 7:05 2017-07-17T10:26:59Z loke: Short enough to do a weekend trip 2017-07-17T10:27:01Z caffe: it usually takes me more than that to get to the eastern US 2017-07-17T10:27:10Z caffe: though, layovers 2017-07-17T10:27:16Z loke: caffe: Right. I think that's something a lot of people in the US don't realise :-) 2017-07-17T10:27:33Z loke: I' 2017-07-17T10:27:44Z loke: I've travelled Singapore→Stockholm for a weekend trip 2017-07-17T10:28:07Z loke: That was a bit exhausting though, since I had to change flight as there were do direct flights at the time. 2017-07-17T10:28:14Z loke: s/do/no/ 2017-07-17T10:29:30Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T10:29:34Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-17T10:30:15Z caffe: I don't fly much. :P 2017-07-17T10:30:50Z loke: I do :-) 2017-07-17T10:31:11Z loke: I don't mind it. 2017-07-17T10:31:38Z antoszka: loke: BTW, nobody ever got back to me from Singapore ;) 2017-07-17T10:31:53Z loke: antoszka: Wait whta? 2017-07-17T10:31:56Z loke: I sent it 2017-07-17T10:32:28Z caffe: i might as well get this out of the way: i'm new to lisp. i'll try and stick to docs before asking for help here. i may inevitably ask a stupid question at some point, but i'll try and keep it to a minimum. 2017-07-17T10:32:48Z antoszka: loke: Yeah, they just probably weren't interested. 2017-07-17T10:33:06Z antoszka: loke: nvm, looking into totally non-IT related stuff for the near future 2017-07-17T10:33:13Z antoszka: will keep lisping for fun 2017-07-17T10:34:28Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T10:34:58Z caffe: is this channel exclusively for common lisp, or is emacs lisp also covered here? 2017-07-17T10:37:06Z antoszka: caffe: This is really a Common Lisp channel, try the specific ones for other related languages. 2017-07-17T10:37:23Z caffe: thanks, i'll keep to that 2017-07-17T10:37:28Z antoszka: caffe: I don't know if there's an #elisp channel, but there's certainly #emacs. 2017-07-17T10:37:46Z caffe: yeah, i recently joined #emacs too 2017-07-17T10:37:51Z antoszka: Which is very busy and I'm sure you can get elisp help there, too. 2017-07-17T10:38:31Z antoszka: cool 2017-07-17T10:46:03Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-17T10:47:34Z axion: caffe: You should probably start with Practical Common Lisp if you haven't read it yet...it's free online. 2017-07-17T10:49:03Z caffe: i'll give it a go, thanks :) 2017-07-17T10:51:22Z caffe: so far, i've mostly been learning s-expression, and how to use the REPL as a calculator 2017-07-17T10:52:01Z antoszka: caffe: and I supposed most people here will suggest you stick to Common Lisp – treat elisp as a tool for configuring emacs, the dialect itself isn't very pretty. 2017-07-17T10:52:08Z antoszka: suppose* 2017-07-17T10:52:51Z caffe: yeah, i got the same impression... at first i was going to start with it, but most of its builtins(?) seem oriented towards text manipulation above all else 2017-07-17T10:53:10Z antoszka: yep 2017-07-17T11:00:32Z caffe: i've heard that lisp can behave either as a procedural language like c, or a functional language like haskell.. how does this work? 2017-07-17T11:01:05Z loke: caffe: It's multi paradigm. It provides imperative as well as functional facilities (and object orientation) 2017-07-17T11:01:49Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T11:02:27Z caffe: object orientation is provided in a modular form, correct? 2017-07-17T11:02:45Z antoszka: caffe: It's just how you choose to use it. No, the object system (CLOS) is very much part of the language. 2017-07-17T11:02:56Z antoszka: caffe: Though you can more or less pretend to ignore it's existance :) 2017-07-17T11:03:01Z antoszka: its* 2017-07-17T11:03:32Z caffe: i've never used a language with OO features. 2017-07-17T11:03:36Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-17T11:03:46Z caffe: not that i'm opposed to them 2017-07-17T11:03:52Z loke: caffe: Java? C++? C#? Python? 2017-07-17T11:04:07Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T11:04:19Z caffe: nope 2017-07-17T11:04:33Z loke: All those languages have a much less expressive object model than CL though. 2017-07-17T11:04:44Z loke: caffe: What languages have you used? 2017-07-17T11:04:47Z antoszka: caffe: Then I guess you'll get to know OOP from the *best* side, lucky you. :) 2017-07-17T11:05:00Z caffe: i've mostly stuck to assembly or subsets of C, focused on microcontrollers 2017-07-17T11:05:21Z caffe: aside from that, some /bin/sh scripting 2017-07-17T11:05:31Z loke: caffe: You can program impertaively just like C in Lisp too... You even have GOTO 2017-07-17T11:06:04Z caffe: hah, really? 2017-07-17T11:06:50Z loke: Really. 2017-07-17T11:07:02Z loke: ,clhs tagbody 2017-07-17T11:07:43Z caffe: i always tended to abuse gosub/jsr 2017-07-17T11:07:45Z antoszka: clhs tagbody 2017-07-17T11:07:58Z antoszka: where are the bots? 2017-07-17T11:08:15Z loke: caffe: Search for TAGBODY in this chapter of PCL: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html 2017-07-17T11:09:42Z antoszka: There's a nice article/rant on the presence of CLOS in CL by Naggum, but can't find it now. 2017-07-17T11:09:53Z antoszka: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=clos+ ← somewhere in here, I suppose. 2017-07-17T11:10:04Z loke: antoszka: Let me guess, he didn't like it? 2017-07-17T11:10:20Z antoszka: No, he actually didn't like people pretending it's not there ;) 2017-07-17T11:10:28Z antoszka: I think he quite admired the design. 2017-07-17T11:10:39Z loke: antoszka: OK, that's quite a reasonable point. 2017-07-17T11:10:42Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T11:11:02Z loke: I have to admit that I started out thinking that CLOS was complicated and just ignored it for a while. Then I realised just how wrong I was. 2017-07-17T11:11:32Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-17T11:11:37Z caffe: i've had the same bias about OO in general for a while 2017-07-17T11:11:52Z antoszka: same here 2017-07-17T11:12:10Z caffe flirted with plan 9 for a year or two.. 2017-07-17T11:17:36Z _death: AMOP really shows how simple CLOS is, in concept 2017-07-17T11:18:17Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T11:18:33Z schweers bought the book (AMOP), still hasn’t read it :/ 2017-07-17T11:18:40Z azzamsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T11:18:55Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-07-17T11:18:55Z shka: caffe: CLOS is not OO that you are used to 2017-07-17T11:19:03Z shka: it is post object oriented 2017-07-17T11:19:04Z _death: schweers: well, at least you get to admire the cool cover :) 2017-07-17T11:19:10Z schweers: hehe, true 2017-07-17T11:19:15Z shka: hmm 2017-07-17T11:19:27Z shka: i bought AMOP recently 2017-07-17T11:19:33Z shka: book did not arrive yet :D 2017-07-17T11:19:45Z schweers: _death: did you mean that the book shows how simple CLOS is, or did you mean MOP itself? 2017-07-17T11:20:14Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-17T11:20:36Z antoszka: I've had amop for a while. Was wondering if the source code of Closette is floating around somewhere to tinker with. 2017-07-17T11:20:42Z _death: schweers: the former, although the MOP springs out naturally because of good design :) 2017-07-17T11:21:01Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-17T11:21:01Z schweers: well, I guess the latter is true, I wanted to know where you put your emphasis ;) 2017-07-17T11:21:07Z antoszka: :) 2017-07-17T11:21:52Z caffe: shka: i'm not used to any OO at all as of yet, but i'll take that as good news 2017-07-17T11:22:19Z caffe: i'm used to very 'dumb' languages, and making very 'dumb' programs 2017-07-17T11:23:05Z schweers: I’m not sure 'dumb' is the right term. 'limited' seems more accurate to me 2017-07-17T11:23:07Z loke: caffe: You can write very dumb programs in CL too 2017-07-17T11:23:24Z caffe: i mean 'dumb' as in close to the metal 2017-07-17T11:23:25Z schweers: as much as I’d like the contrary to be true: using CL to write a program doesn’t automatically make it 'smart' 2017-07-17T11:24:09Z _death: the other day I "reversed" ql-setup::dumb-string-hash.. the result was still dumb though 2017-07-17T11:26:29Z caffe: i mostly mean in what the language or programming environment has to offer... in assembly, for example; not much is really done for you. you have to do everything yourself. C is the same to some extent. 2017-07-17T11:27:09Z schweers: caffe: i.e. low-level 2017-07-17T11:27:10Z caffe: i don't mean to say i think CL will magically make my software 'better' 2017-07-17T11:27:29Z _death: caffe: the thing with lisp is that you can do both low level and high level stuff as needed 2017-07-17T11:27:30Z schweers: it would be nice if that were the case though ;) 2017-07-17T11:27:48Z schweers: indeed, which is why I use it 2017-07-17T11:28:02Z caffe: it sounds silly to say, but it reminds me of applesoft, very vaguely 2017-07-17T11:28:20Z schweers: I finally tried out CFFI the other day just to poke around in an mmap()ed region and was amazed 2017-07-17T11:28:57Z antoszka: caffe: Common Lisp is nice about being able (but not having) to control the whole compiler right down almost to the metal. You can see the disassembly of your compiled functions right in the REPL. 2017-07-17T11:29:12Z antoszka: (but not having to) 2017-07-17T11:29:26Z antoszka: If you ever need to. 2017-07-17T11:29:34Z schweers: antoszka: if you have a compiler which compiles directly to native code 2017-07-17T11:29:42Z caffe: the source is very easy to read, even if uncommented... you have the same sort of live interpreted enviroment... applesoft of course is just a lot more castrated. it's a nice break from the write-compile-test-edit grind 2017-07-17T11:29:57Z schweers: speaking of which: is clisp still under development/maintainance? 2017-07-17T11:33:32Z caffe: yeah, the REPL is the sort of thing i've wished i had in other languages; but hadn't really seen anything vaguely similar to, sort of basic interpreters 2017-07-17T11:33:52Z caffe: i know that's a really poor comparison 2017-07-17T11:34:09Z schweers: its because most languages are missing the parts that make up the REPL: read, eval and print 2017-07-17T11:34:24Z schweers: altough many languages have functions of those names, they do not do the same thing 2017-07-17T11:34:26Z antoszka: schweers: obviously :) 2017-07-17T11:34:34Z caffe: i was about to ask.. ;) 2017-07-17T11:34:52Z schweers: python seems to be especially guilty of this, if I recall correctly 2017-07-17T11:35:09Z antoszka: caffe: Actually the REPL is *more* than just an interactive environment (like Ruby's irb/pry is, or Python's python, or Tcl's tclsh). 2017-07-17T11:35:42Z antoszka: caffe: Once you get to know lisp better, you'll see the magic symmetry between READ and PRINT (and how it actually matters something in REPL). 2017-07-17T11:35:59Z schweers: can one start additional … um … 'interactive shells' in a, say, python process? 2017-07-17T11:36:15Z antoszka: It's one of the things that are very non-obvious for non-lispers and make Lisp a Lisp. 2017-07-17T11:36:27Z caffe: yeah, i've barely gotten to know it. it's still a calculator to me so far 2017-07-17T11:36:27Z schweers: took me a long time to figure that out 2017-07-17T11:37:43Z antoszka: caffe: If you want to dive right into the symbols and the reader, there's a very nice paper, google for "complete idiot's guide to common lisp packages" 2017-07-17T11:37:59Z antoszka: And don't be put off by the title, this is one most enlightening lisp paper I've read :) 2017-07-17T11:38:25Z caffe: what are the packages? 2017-07-17T11:38:46Z schweers: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 2017-07-17T11:38:47Z schweers: this one? 2017-07-17T11:38:48Z antoszka: bags for symbols 2017-07-17T11:38:50Z antoszka: yep 2017-07-17T11:39:02Z schweers: caffe: basically namespaces 2017-07-17T11:39:10Z antoszka: kind of, yeah 2017-07-17T11:39:46Z antoszka: You'll realise how *first class* the symbols (“words” used for the code) are in Lisps. 2017-07-17T11:40:03Z schweers: antoszka: I’ve never heard of that paper, I guess I’ve got something now on my todo list now ;) 2017-07-17T11:40:12Z antoszka: schweers: It's rather short. 2017-07-17T11:40:25Z antoszka: Though can be somewhat steep for a newcomer. 2017-07-17T11:41:38Z schweers: antoszka: 14 pages is indeed not that long, especially not in that formatting, but it’s not done in 2 minutes 2017-07-17T11:41:59Z antoszka: Yeah, give it a go whenever you have a spare evening ;) 2017-07-17T11:42:17Z schweers: that it why org-capture is my friend \o/ 2017-07-17T11:44:32Z schweers: I wonder how many people (not just here) get to use some sort of lisp on the job 2017-07-17T11:45:58Z antoszka: Quite many, I'd say. 2017-07-17T11:48:35Z schweers: I remember looking for jobs where I could use lisps and found exactly two of them 2017-07-17T11:50:55Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-17T11:51:30Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T11:52:48Z lanu quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-17T11:53:14Z shka: 2 > 1 2017-07-17T11:53:17Z shka: and 2 > 0 2017-07-17T11:53:21Z shka: ;-) 2017-07-17T11:53:23Z schweers: true 2017-07-17T11:53:39Z schweers: most cities where I entered the search term had 0 results 2017-07-17T11:54:05Z schweers: ah, not quite true, I remember a third offering which was a consulting job in a place I didn’t want to go 2017-07-17T11:54:23Z schweers: anyway, I was just wondering 2017-07-17T11:59:30Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T12:09:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:10:00Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:16:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T12:17:00Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:18:09Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T12:18:21Z antoszka: Yeah, there's only a handful across the world. Because other ones are occupied by lispers ;) 2017-07-17T12:20:32Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T12:22:48Z schweers: I also often wonder if it’s easier to find a lisp job in the US than elsewhere 2017-07-17T12:23:00Z schweers: or maybe the oder way around 2017-07-17T12:23:29Z antoszka: Not sure. Most lisp jobs I've heard about in the recent years were in Europe: Portugal, Finland, UK, Spain, Berlin, Kiev. 2017-07-17T12:23:50Z antoszka: And a few other places I can't recall now. 2017-07-17T12:26:22Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:27:05Z Xach: australia has lisp jobs 2017-07-17T12:27:19Z Xach: outer space too 2017-07-17T12:27:27Z antoszka: though usually unmanned 2017-07-17T12:27:35Z antoszka: remote work recommended 2017-07-17T12:28:32Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:29:14Z schweers: has lisp been used in space travel recently? I think I once heard a war story about lisp on a probe or something, but that was ages ago, if memory serves 2017-07-17T12:31:27Z varjag: deep space 1 2017-07-17T12:32:07Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:32:59Z phoe: "Debugging a program running on a $100M piece of hardware that is 100 million miles away is an interesting experience." 2017-07-17T12:33:03Z phoe: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html 2017-07-17T12:35:07Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T12:36:21Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:37:07Z schweers: that is the story I meant 2017-07-17T12:40:10Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:40:57Z sellout-1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T12:42:52Z azzamsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T12:43:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T12:46:23Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:47:39Z ludston joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:49:16Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T12:49:59Z anon joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:50:22Z anon is now known as Guest31455 2017-07-17T12:51:32Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:52:10Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-17T12:58:47Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:01:54Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T13:01:56Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:02:20Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-17T13:03:13Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:04:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T13:06:41Z Murii quit (Quit: Going home) 2017-07-17T13:06:50Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T13:08:41Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:12:56Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:13:55Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:16:45Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:17:10Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T13:19:47Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T13:19:57Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-17T13:22:54Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:27:48Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:33:13Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T13:33:28Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:34:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:36:17Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T13:36:55Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T13:38:38Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:39:25Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:41:19Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:43:51Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-17T13:47:20Z mulk__ quit (Quit: mulk__) 2017-07-17T13:48:17Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:49:51Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:52:43Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:57:16Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-17T13:58:30Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:00:16Z azzamsa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T14:06:44Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:07:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:09:31Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:11:03Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T14:13:26Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-17T14:14:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:15:49Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T14:16:27Z tumdum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T14:20:55Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:21:50Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:24:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:29:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T14:38:08Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:39:07Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T14:41:23Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T14:45:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:45:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-17T14:45:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:47:31Z tumdum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T14:48:21Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2017-07-17T14:49:34Z phoe: Does LOCAL-TIME provide any kind of precise timestamp difference? All I can see is TIMESTAMP-DIFFERENCE which returns a double-float, where I want an integer - seconds or nanoseconds of difference between the two timestamps. 2017-07-17T14:50:13Z phoe: Or should I create my own function for that based on subtracting two TIMESTAMP-TO-UNIX values? 2017-07-17T14:51:06Z tumdum joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:53:30Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T14:53:36Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:55:17Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-17T14:58:20Z beach: What do you use time stamps for? 2017-07-17T14:58:20Z dlowe: you'll have to create your own function for that. There's easily enough precision in a float to be precise, though. 2017-07-17T15:00:30Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:01:04Z phoe: beach: timestamping objects, so each has its creation date. 2017-07-17T15:01:13Z LiamH: phoe: Antik can keep precision time. 2017-07-17T15:01:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:01:50Z LiamH: It's probably not well documented though, unfortunately. 2017-07-17T15:02:27Z phoe: I think I'll just use unix timestamp difference that will give me the difference in seconds. 2017-07-17T15:02:32Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:02:33Z beach: phoe: Usually, the word "time stamp" means some unique, strictly growing value, and it is usually unrelated to absolute time. 2017-07-17T15:02:43Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:02:48Z beach: phoe: Instead, you can use a counter that increases every time there is an action. 2017-07-17T15:02:56Z beach: phoe: Like what I do in Cluffer. 2017-07-17T15:03:09Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:03:22Z phoe: Oh. LOCAL-TIME uses them as values that relate to absolute time. https://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/manual.html 2017-07-17T15:03:37Z phoe: And I want absolute time and not something monotonically increasing. 2017-07-17T15:03:58Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:03:59Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:05:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:05:58Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351105 <- that's what I have so far, when it comes to describing my protocol for dates. 2017-07-17T15:06:16Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:07:05Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:09:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T15:09:35Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:11:58Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:12:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:14:43Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:18:08Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:19:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:19:51Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:22:58Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:26:50Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:35:35Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:37:35Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:38:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:39:07Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:39:17Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:40:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T15:42:02Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:44:16Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:44:43Z schweers: phoe: is putting a ~ at the end of each line in the docstring standard practice? I’ve never seen that before, but it seems to be a nice formatting hint. 2017-07-17T15:45:27Z Bike: must mean it's being fed to FORMAT 2017-07-17T15:45:38Z Bike: ~newline in format means to not actually have a newline 2017-07-17T15:46:04Z schweers: ahh 2017-07-17T15:46:05Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:48:08Z m00natic` joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:49:52Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T15:50:47Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:51:02Z beach: I use (format nil "...") and then I use ~@ at the end of lines, so that I can indent the following line for better code layout. 2017-07-17T15:51:28Z beach: Er, I use #.(format nil "..."). 2017-07-17T15:51:32Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:52:19Z schweers: this may be the first good use of #. I have yet encountered 2017-07-17T15:52:34Z schweers: I could think of several others, none I’d like to use though 2017-07-17T15:52:48Z Bike: and phoe just dodged it by defining the macro instead, ha ha 2017-07-17T15:52:59Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T15:53:18Z schweers: If you’re defining a macro anyway you might as well do it that way 2017-07-17T15:53:52Z schweers: but as defun, defmacro and friends cannot be redefined, I guess the solution beach uses is quite good 2017-07-17T15:54:54Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:55:17Z schweers: does anyone know why standard names may not be redefined? is it for performance reasons? 2017-07-17T15:55:56Z Bike: it's confusing and makes a lot of program analysis difficult. 2017-07-17T15:55:57Z beach: Yes, so that the compiler can count on their definitions. 2017-07-17T15:56:12Z Bike: and you can define your own package that shadows the names, so it's not a huge deal. 2017-07-17T15:56:40Z schweers: Bike: really? somehow I always thought that was illegal 2017-07-17T15:56:47Z Bike: really 2017-07-17T15:56:54Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:57:02Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T15:57:05Z schweers: huh. So I could define a package which exports defun? 2017-07-17T15:57:12Z Bike: yep 2017-07-17T15:57:15Z schweers: ahh 2017-07-17T15:57:23Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-17T15:57:28Z schweers: cool, I always thought that could not be done in a portable way 2017-07-17T15:57:44Z Bike: (defpackage #:schweers-cl (:use #:cl) (:shadow #:defun) (:export #:defun)) 2017-07-17T15:58:06Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-17T15:58:17Z beach: schweers: Code that uses your definition would look like normal Common Lisp code, but the symbols will be different because the package is part of the symbol, so the compiler will not attempt to optimize for those. 2017-07-17T15:58:23Z schweers: my very own defun, which is exaclty the same as the original \o/ 2017-07-17T15:59:29Z schweers: beach: now that I know that is legal I know how that works, although I have to admit that I don’t have that much experience with how the reader treats packages 2017-07-17T16:00:12Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T16:00:29Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-17T16:00:50Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:01:08Z beach: If the reader sees a symbol without a package prefix, it interns it in the package that is the value of *PACKAGE*. 2017-07-17T16:01:26Z schweers: I know the basics, I just never implemented anything of the sort ;) 2017-07-17T16:03:38Z quazimodo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-17T16:04:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:04:45Z schweers: beach: that is also not quite true, as the symbol `defun' is not interned into my current package, although it has no package prefix. It is only interned into the current package if it is not interned "anywhere else where it is visible" 2017-07-17T16:04:54Z schweers: the last part is where I’m a little fuzzy 2017-07-17T16:05:44Z beach: The terminology is that the symbol is "accessible" (as I recall). 2017-07-17T16:05:55Z schweers: ah, right 2017-07-17T16:06:01Z schweers: that rings a bell 2017-07-17T16:06:13Z beach: Which happens if *PACKAGE* uses the common-lisp package. 2017-07-17T16:06:52Z schweers: when I implemented my subset of the common lisp reader I skipped the whole package thing 2017-07-17T16:07:00Z beach: Ouch. 2017-07-17T16:07:22Z beach: Yes, "accessible". See the Common Lisp HyperSpec page on INTERN. 2017-07-17T16:07:38Z schweers: well, it was for elisp which doesn’t have packages 2017-07-17T16:07:44Z beach: "If a symbol whose name is the same as string is already accessible in package, it is returned." 2017-07-17T16:08:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:08:00Z beach: Fair enough. 2017-07-17T16:08:45Z schweers: sadly common lisp package and symbol semantics are not implementable in elisp. At least I couldn’t find any way 2017-07-17T16:08:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T16:09:19Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T16:09:30Z beach: schweers: So what I said was true. It does intern it in the current package. However, "intern in the current package" takes used packages in to account through the definition of "accessible". 2017-07-17T16:09:50Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:09:59Z schweers: well, you said that it happens when there is no package prefix, which is not true by itself :-P 2017-07-17T16:10:11Z schweers: but I’m just nit-picking 2017-07-17T16:10:12Z beach: How so? 2017-07-17T16:10:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:10:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-17T16:10:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:10:25Z beach: I am very interested in correct terminology. 2017-07-17T16:10:38Z schweers: well, it is only interned if it is not accessible 2017-07-17T16:10:43Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:10:45Z schweers: that was missing from your first comment 2017-07-17T16:10:48Z beach: Not true. 2017-07-17T16:10:59Z beach: "interning" means calling INTERN. 2017-07-17T16:11:09Z schweers: ahh 2017-07-17T16:11:15Z schweers: okay, you’re right 2017-07-17T16:11:18Z beach: Which, as I wrote, returns an existing symbol when one with that name is accessible. 2017-07-17T16:11:23Z schweers: true 2017-07-17T16:11:24Z schweers: sorry 2017-07-17T16:11:43Z beach: No need to be sorry. As long as we ultimately agree. 2017-07-17T16:11:57Z schweers: we do 2017-07-17T16:12:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:14:13Z thetabit quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-17T16:14:33Z thetabit joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:17:32Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T16:17:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T16:20:36Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:25:46Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T16:26:33Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:31:46Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:35:13Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:36:36Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:37:15Z snits joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:38:48Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T16:40:16Z pillton quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-17T16:40:16Z hiq[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-17T16:40:17Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-17T16:40:17Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-17T16:42:33Z serviteur quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-17T16:57:45Z nosefouratyou_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T16:57:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T16:58:23Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-17T16:58:44Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T16:58:55Z thetabit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:00:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:00:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-17T17:00:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:01:45Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T17:02:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:02:54Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T17:03:12Z kencausey joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:05:31Z kencausey: I seem to be missing something basic regarding quicklisp. Once I have install some systems end the day, and come back the next day, what is the method for using the systems again? I'm on sbcl Windows. It doesn't seem that sbcl or asdf are aware of the quicklisp paths although quicklisp is loaded (via quicklisp/setup.lisp). 2017-07-17T17:06:40Z knusbaum: You need to reload the systems. 2017-07-17T17:06:50Z kencausey: Sure, but how? 2017-07-17T17:07:03Z knusbaum: (ql:quickload 'some-system) 2017-07-17T17:07:04Z dlowe: via quicklaod 2017-07-17T17:07:16Z Bike: (it doesn't download them again) 2017-07-17T17:07:22Z kencausey: Ah, that's my mistake. Thanks. 2017-07-17T17:07:40Z knusbaum: np 2017-07-17T17:07:56Z dispersed: what's quicklisp, just to give some context? 2017-07-17T17:07:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T17:07:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:08:01Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:08:04Z kencausey: I was thinkg of ql:quickload like apt-get install 2017-07-17T17:08:13Z kencausey: quicklisp.org 2017-07-17T17:08:22Z dispersed: ah k so it's a package man 2017-07-17T17:08:27Z kencausey: yes 2017-07-17T17:09:05Z dispersed: i woulda guessed something else by its name 2017-07-17T17:09:17Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:09:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:09:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-17T17:09:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:10:12Z phoe: schweers: exactly what Bike said, I feed this to FORMAT without arguments so I get my line breaks erased for free 2017-07-17T17:10:34Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:10:43Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:10:44Z kencausey: And I guess while we are on the subject: Does ql:update-all-dists just update the package list or also update previously loaded packages? 2017-07-17T17:10:51Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:11:06Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:11:06Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:11:26Z kencausey: And I guess the way quicklisp currently works new versions don't actually appear until Zach (or whoever is doing it these days) manually issues the update (roughly monthly?) 2017-07-17T17:11:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T17:11:31Z dispersed: would guess former, and 'upgrade' woudl be latter 2017-07-17T17:11:48Z Xach: kencausey: the update updates the package list and fetches the latest versions of whatever you had installed. 2017-07-17T17:11:59Z Xach: kencausey: dist versions are updated about once per month. 2017-07-17T17:12:08Z Intensity joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:12:09Z kencausey: Xach: Thanks. :) 2017-07-17T17:12:32Z kencausey: dispersed: Don't make the same mistake as me and think too much about apt 2017-07-17T17:13:35Z Xach: beach and/or jackdaniel -- http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-17/failure-report/mcclim.html#mcclim_extensions 2017-07-17T17:13:57Z m00natic` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T17:14:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:19:09Z jackdaniel: Xach: looking at it, thanks for the report 2017-07-17T17:20:52Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-17/failure-report/mcclim.html#mcclim-bezier too 2017-07-17T17:21:01Z Xach: and http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-17/failure-report/mcclim.html#mcclim-raster-image 2017-07-17T17:21:11Z Xach: I use Find and look for "backtrace for" 2017-07-17T17:21:39Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:22:21Z voidlily joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:23:43Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:23:56Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:25:34Z jackdaniel: I'll have to add a test for loading all systems separately for mcclim (and simplify the dependency tree), because these errors are quite regular 2017-07-17T17:27:03Z nosefouratyou joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:27:10Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:27:26Z jackdaniel: Xach: pushed to master, lmk if there are still problems 2017-07-17T17:27:44Z jackdaniel: (I expect none) 2017-07-17T17:28:05Z Xach: i will try 2017-07-17T17:29:24Z tumdum_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:30:09Z tumdum quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:30:40Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:31:08Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:32:41Z Xach: jackdaniel: oh, wonderful! now the only failure is platform-specific. 2017-07-17T17:32:45Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T17:33:20Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:33:20Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:33:20Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:33:20Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:33:21Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:34:08Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T17:35:54Z jackdaniel: platform specific? 2017-07-17T17:36:21Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:36:58Z Xach: jackdaniel: yeah, cocoa backend not available 2017-07-17T17:37:38Z voidlily joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:38:29Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:40:26Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T17:40:33Z jackdaniel: right, there's nothing we can do about it atm 2017-07-17T17:40:54Z jackdaniel: thanks 2017-07-17T17:42:19Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:42:27Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T17:42:32Z Thetabit joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:43:24Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:46:27Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T17:48:25Z voidlily joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:49:02Z Bike: are accessors allowed to ignore slot-value-using-class methods? 2017-07-17T17:49:47Z phoe: mop slot-value-using-class 2017-07-17T17:49:59Z Bike: specbot died on the way here. very sad. 2017-07-17T17:50:53Z beach: Bike: When the circumstances are right, yes. We have had this discussion before. 2017-07-17T17:51:05Z phoe: Bike: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html 2017-07-17T17:51:08Z phoe: "This generic function implements the behavior of the slot-value function. It is called by slot-value with the class of object as its first argument and the pertinent effective slot definition metaobject as its third argument." 2017-07-17T17:51:16Z phoe: so slot-value calls slot-value-using-class, or so does the MOP says 2017-07-17T17:51:31Z beach: But the accessors don't have to call slot value. 2017-07-17T17:51:41Z beach: That's just their "moral" definition. 2017-07-17T17:51:43Z phoe: ooh. depends on how you define an accessor. 2017-07-17T17:51:55Z beach: :reader :writer :accessor 2017-07-17T17:52:02Z phoe: by the broad definition, an accessor is just a function that retrieves or stores data. 2017-07-17T17:52:09Z phoe: or a pair of functions, reader and writer. 2017-07-17T17:52:19Z Bike: beach: we have, but i'm observing different behavior from an accessor and from s-v-u-c, so i'm adrift 2017-07-17T17:52:37Z beach: Bike: I am not going to attempt another definition debacle like last time. 2017-07-17T17:53:02Z Bike: no, no, i mean i tried some stuff and calling setf slot-value directly does things that setf accessor does not 2017-07-17T17:54:24Z Bike: i did a whole lot of redefinitions though, maybe there's some caching issue 2017-07-17T17:54:26Z beach: That is one thing that should not be possible, unless those other things are defined by the implementation only and not generally available to the application programmer. 2017-07-17T17:55:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T17:55:36Z Bike: ok i reset everything and set it up again and there's no longer a problem. 2017-07-17T17:55:54Z Bike: cool. just means there's some obscure bug in sbcl with method redefinition, or something 2017-07-17T17:55:58Z beach: If everything is MOP defined: The class metaclass, the class of the generic function, the slot metaobject, etc., then the accessor may avoid calling slot-value etc. 2017-07-17T17:56:16Z beach: OK. 2017-07-17T17:56:19Z Bike: yeah. that's not the case here. i have custom methods. 2017-07-17T17:56:54Z beach: You can not have custom methods that only specialize to MOP-defined classes. 2017-07-17T17:57:05Z Bike: i have custom methods on custom classes, i meant 2017-07-17T17:57:24Z nosefouratyou: hey I am trying to fix up logv at the moment and I am getting stuck on this issue: https://github.com/nallen05/logv/blob/master/logv.lisp#L31 https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/24d444ebe831612192f75f1c3e67f33a 2017-07-17T17:57:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:57:52Z beach: Bike: I am not talking about custom classes and custom methods. I am talking about custom metaclasses and custom method classes. 2017-07-17T17:58:42Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-17T17:58:44Z beach: If all you have is custom methods on custom classed, but the metaclasses are standard, then the slot accessor may avoid calling slot-value-using-class if it is the only applicable method. 2017-07-17T17:59:13Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-17T18:00:12Z Bike: custom methods on custom metaclasses. it's custom for sure 2017-07-17T18:00:39Z beach: That's fine, and in cases like that, the slot accessor may not be able to avoid calling slot-value-using-class. 2017-07-17T18:00:40Z diegs_ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50)) 2017-07-17T18:00:48Z Bike: nosefouratyou: is the argument supposed to be optional? 2017-07-17T18:01:10Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:01:30Z nosefouratyou: Bike: I have no clue 2017-07-17T18:02:39Z Bike: didn't you write it? 2017-07-17T18:03:28Z kencausey: Bike: I think he wrote the gist, but not logv 2017-07-17T18:03:41Z nosefouratyou: Bike: I downloaded logv and now trying to quickload it 2017-07-17T18:04:04Z nosefouratyou: kencausey: that's right, sorry for being confusing 2017-07-17T18:04:48Z Bike: so logv is broken. 2017-07-17T18:05:16Z nosefouratyou: but I had it running today; I removed in and downloaded it again and now I can't figure out what I did to fix it 2017-07-17T18:05:28Z nosefouratyou: Bike: I mean I guess so 2017-07-17T18:05:52Z Bike: i mean, that defsetf is definitely busted. 2017-07-17T18:06:56Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:07:15Z kencausey: Are you sure? I mean it hasn't changed in years and it is in quicklisp. 2017-07-17T18:07:32Z kencausey: I assume that means someone valued it and it worked at some point. 2017-07-17T18:07:41Z kencausey: *recentish* 2017-07-17T18:08:25Z Thetabit: I'm sure this is dumb, but I am going thru the Slime manual looking at the commands for debugging, but I don't know how to start the debugger without hitting an error first. How do I get into the debugger and then step into the expressions? Am I approaching debugging with the wrong mindset, eg treating emacs and slime like an IDE where I can set breakpoints? 2017-07-17T18:08:29Z Bike: i'm pretty sure. from the package definition that's cl:defsetf, and defsetf has a defsetf lambda list, and those don't have that list thing. 2017-07-17T18:08:47Z Bike: Thetabit: it is a bit unusual to do it like that. but you can insert calls to (break) in your code 2017-07-17T18:08:48Z nosefouratyou: Thetabit: you can use (break) anywhere in your program to trigger the debugger 2017-07-17T18:09:04Z Bike: your implementation might also have a stepper that you use like (step ) 2017-07-17T18:09:16Z nosefouratyou: darn, I had it working and I liked it. It seemed a lot faster than log4cl. 2017-07-17T18:09:29Z kencausey: nosefouratyou: Actually, I don't see logv listed in quicklisp currently, I may have misspoken. Is your quicklisp out of date? 2017-07-17T18:09:54Z nosefouratyou: kencausey: no, I downloaded it and now trying to load it with quicklisp 2017-07-17T18:10:25Z Bike: nosefouratyou: try making it optional. (key &optional (log-env-name *default-log-env*)) 2017-07-17T18:10:26Z kencausey: I see, in any case, we can't assume others are successfully using it. 2017-07-17T18:10:29Z Bike: that matches the regular function, anyway 2017-07-17T18:10:29Z Xach: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/comparison-of-lisp-logging-libraries has some hints 2017-07-17T18:10:39Z Xach: >> I do want to mention that I have left out at least two. First, logv, which I could not get to compile. 2017-07-17T18:10:48Z Bike: you test that libraries build, right, xach? you- oh. well then. 2017-07-17T18:10:49Z Xach: i love sabraonthehill's comparison articles 2017-07-17T18:11:20Z kencausey: Xach: Yep, looks like good stuff. 2017-07-17T18:11:33Z nosefouratyou: Bike: that worked! thank you 2017-07-17T18:11:50Z Bike: logv doesn't show up in system-apropos. maybe you have it otherwise accessible from asdf, like from quicklisp local-projects. 2017-07-17T18:12:07Z kencausey: Yes, he said he added it locally manually 2017-07-17T18:12:36Z Bike: oh. okay. so it's not in quicklisp. got it. 2017-07-17T18:14:13Z kencausey: yes, a bad assumption on my part 2017-07-17T18:19:11Z RedEight joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:19:18Z sucks joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:19:37Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T18:26:01Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:30:01Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T18:31:48Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T18:32:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T18:33:43Z tumdum_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-17T18:35:06Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:37:46Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:42:58Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T18:48:32Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T18:50:15Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:50:39Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-17T18:52:59Z phoe: UGH 2017-07-17T18:53:07Z phoe: I think I got my LZMA wrapper working. 2017-07-17T18:53:17Z Xach: horrible 2017-07-17T18:53:22Z diegs_ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50)) 2017-07-17T18:53:27Z phoe: It is horrible - I am interfacing with C. 2017-07-17T18:54:07Z phoe: But it looks like I can compress and decompress arbitrary Lisp uint8 vectors, which is good. 2017-07-17T18:55:38Z phoe: The best part - I needed to build the .so library for Linux myself because the original LZMA makefile from Igor Pavlov only builds binary executables. 2017-07-17T18:55:45Z phoe: So you can imagine the ugliness. 2017-07-17T18:59:03Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:02:12Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T19:02:38Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:03:23Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:04:29Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:10:32Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:10:50Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:11:21Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:16:00Z phoe: Full LZMA wrapper: https://gist.github.com/phoe/8cfdcb4f34e0584c703f1751072a7813 2017-07-17T19:16:32Z phoe: I'll prepare the tests and a proper git repository soon, when my head stops aching. 2017-07-17T19:17:12Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:20:41Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:21:24Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T19:22:15Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:23:40Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T19:24:20Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:26:08Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:26:19Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T19:27:24Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:28:51Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:29:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:29:55Z phoe: ...the hell 2017-07-17T19:30:08Z tetero: phoe: How is it working out? It piqued my curiousity 2017-07-17T19:30:18Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/EIArG1u.png <- Google is damn fast 2017-07-17T19:30:36Z phoe: tetero: working out, as in? It works for me so far for trivial arrays, I have not tested it much yet, it's freshly out of the oven 2017-07-17T19:31:09Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:31:18Z tetero: phoe: CFFI, as in, is it terrible or is it okay? 2017-07-17T19:32:47Z phoe: tetero: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351117 2017-07-17T19:32:49Z phoe: oh 2017-07-17T19:32:54Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T19:33:08Z phoe: CFFI is terrible because C is terrible 2017-07-17T19:33:34Z phoe: but then again, Lisp is natural for me, so I'm obviously biased 2017-07-17T19:33:35Z Xach: CFFI is pretty great though 2017-07-17T19:33:42Z Xach: compared to Before, mostly 2017-07-17T19:33:50Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:33:51Z phoe: oh, I don't mean the CFFI facility 2017-07-17T19:34:04Z phoe: it's pretty good, and what cl-autowrap provides is also very good to work with 2017-07-17T19:34:39Z phoe: the header files for LZMA got parsed automatically and I got all the required C functions, types and sizes automagically 2017-07-17T19:35:02Z andrzejk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:35:49Z phoe: but I spent whole two hours debugging an issue that size_t was eight bytes where I only allocated four - and boom, heisenbugs, image corruptions, drops to LDB and such fun stuff. 2017-07-17T19:35:55Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:36:10Z phoe: the stuff that does not exist in Lisp because you don't need to allocate raw memory. 2017-07-17T19:36:31Z phoe: so it's less of CFFI being terrible and more of the C land being very primitive 2017-07-17T19:36:43Z Bike: why did you allocate four? 2017-07-17T19:37:26Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T19:39:14Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:39:28Z phoe: because I thought that I should allocate four there as size_t wasn't called size_t in the original code but had some quirky typedef that made me assume it's four bytes. 2017-07-17T19:39:36Z phoe: tl;dr I can't read C. 2017-07-17T19:39:39Z Bike: nice 2017-07-17T19:39:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:40:24Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:42:37Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:48:26Z reinuseslisp joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:48:56Z pjb: phoe: I wouldn't be surprised if google had hooks in github (and other such places). 2017-07-17T19:50:48Z phoe: It most likely has. 2017-07-17T19:50:59Z phoe: I just didn't expect to see it that quickly. 2017-07-17T19:53:39Z knusbaum: sizeof is always helpful. 2017-07-17T19:54:35Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:55:09Z andrzejk_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-17T19:55:19Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:55:29Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-17T19:55:31Z phoe: haha, yes, I know. 2017-07-17T19:55:37Z phoe: *now* I know. 2017-07-17T19:59:43Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:59:57Z wizzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T20:00:06Z himmAllRight quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-07-17T20:00:27Z knusbaum: :) 2017-07-17T20:00:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: When will it be then? Soon.) 2017-07-17T20:01:19Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:01:52Z wizzo joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:11:18Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T20:11:52Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:12:13Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T20:20:08Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:23:01Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T20:27:30Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T20:29:39Z otwieracz: Is this possible to kill a thread (or better, send an interrupt) from slime-list-threads? 2017-07-17T20:31:44Z Bike: https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#interrupt-threadthreadfunction 2017-07-17T20:31:55Z ted_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:31:58Z Bike: from a slime interface... might be trickier 2017-07-17T20:32:10Z ted_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T20:32:28Z phinxy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T20:35:43Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:36:29Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-17T20:40:33Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T20:41:02Z Baggers: otwieracz: swank has both interrupt-thread & kill-thread but I cant recall on the slime side 2017-07-17T20:42:03Z otwieracz: There's worse problem 2017-07-17T20:42:15Z Baggers: otwieracz: I guess you would (slime-eval `(swank:kill-thread (some-cl-func-to-get-thread))) but I'm not 100% on that 2017-07-17T20:42:37Z Baggers: otwieracz: why do you want to do this from slime's api rather than CL? 2017-07-17T20:43:10Z otwieracz: To be honets, that does not matter 2017-07-17T20:43:39Z Baggers: ok then I'd second Bike and say to look at bordeaux-threads 2017-07-17T20:44:01Z otwieracz: # 2017-07-17T20:44:01Z otwieracz: GRC> (bt:destroy-thread *) 2017-07-17T20:44:02Z otwieracz: NIL 2017-07-17T20:44:28Z otwieracz: But the thread is still alive. :/ 2017-07-17T20:46:52Z regl joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:46:56Z regl: Hi 2017-07-17T20:47:04Z regl: I am trying to build SICL 2017-07-17T20:47:09Z regl: and I am getting this error: 2017-07-17T20:47:11Z regl: Component :ACCLIMATION not found, required by # 2017-07-17T20:47:32Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:47:57Z Bike: it's a separate repo, also on beach's github 2017-07-17T20:48:35Z regl: ok found it 2017-07-17T20:48:41Z regl: it's available trought quicklisp 2017-07-17T20:50:55Z Baggers: otwieracz: does bt:interrupt-thread work? also is it your thread and do you have an idea of why it might be blocking? Where a blocking call is needed it could be worth looking for a similar function with a timeout 2017-07-17T20:52:20Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:55:09Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-17T20:55:57Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T21:00:04Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:00:09Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:01:34Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:03:29Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:04:23Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T21:06:08Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:06:39Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:07:36Z regl: did anybody manage to compile SICL? 2017-07-17T21:08:08Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:10:21Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:11:07Z regl: hi how to redirect sbcl output when compiling to a file? 2017-07-17T21:12:19Z knusbaum: re-bind *standard-output* and/or *error-output* 2017-07-17T21:15:22Z Bike: regl: usually i work with subsystems... i think there are directions in the readme now, though 2017-07-17T21:16:38Z regl: yes I followed the directions 2017-07-17T21:16:43Z regl: and compilation started 2017-07-17T21:16:51Z regl: but I got one failure in one of the files 2017-07-17T21:17:23Z regl: debugger invoked on a UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR in thread #: COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling # 2017-07-17T21:17:30Z regl: this is anything but trivial 2017-07-17T21:17:36Z regl: who can I reach or ask? 2017-07-17T21:18:22Z Bike: it's certainly not trivial 2017-07-17T21:18:33Z Bike: that one'os probably my fault. if you talk to me in like an hour i can help you out 2017-07-17T21:18:41Z regl: ahaha 2017-07-17T21:18:55Z regl: my fault that I took the latest repo 2017-07-17T21:19:02Z regl: in one hour I will go to sleep 2017-07-17T21:19:08Z regl: it's almost midnight here 2017-07-17T21:21:22Z regl: I'll try again tomorrow 2017-07-17T21:21:25Z regl: bye! 2017-07-17T21:22:48Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:22:50Z karvus joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:23:03Z regl quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-17T21:27:51Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T21:28:06Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T21:31:34Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:33:19Z knusbaum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:35:13Z phoe: How do I tell ASDF to re-register local projects? 2017-07-17T21:35:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:35:22Z phoe: (I keep forgetting this. I use Quicklisp too much.) 2017-07-17T21:36:48Z shka_: phoe: uhm, why not use quicklisp… again? 2017-07-17T21:37:13Z shka_: put stuff into local-project and call ql function 2017-07-17T21:37:20Z phoe: shka_: I want a pure-ASDF solution that does not depend on QL 2017-07-17T21:37:26Z phoe: and there is one, I just forgot it 2017-07-17T21:37:30Z shka_: yeah 2017-07-17T21:37:36Z shka_: there is… one 2017-07-17T21:37:48Z shka_: i think that i did this onec 2017-07-17T21:37:53Z shka_: like… once 2017-07-17T21:37:56Z shka_: good night 2017-07-17T21:38:36Z phoe notes: ASDF puts people to sleep 2017-07-17T21:38:56Z shka_: yeah 2017-07-17T21:38:59Z shka_: asdf is boring 2017-07-17T21:41:37Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-17T21:42:52Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:43:29Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:43:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:45:25Z pjb: phoe: I use (quick-reset). 2017-07-17T21:45:38Z pjb: It calls (ql:register-local-projects) 2017-07-17T21:45:57Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T21:48:07Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-07-17T21:52:26Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T21:52:45Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-17T21:59:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:03:02Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-17T22:03:53Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:04:50Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T22:05:57Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:09:45Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T22:10:03Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:10:32Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T22:16:02Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T22:17:15Z karvus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T22:19:57Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-17T22:22:13Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:22:18Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T22:25:44Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:27:55Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T22:34:29Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:37:39Z jean377 quit (Quit: bye) 2017-07-17T22:42:08Z phinxy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T22:43:26Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-17T22:43:43Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:45:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:47:08Z msb joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:47:10Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T22:47:24Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:50:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T22:50:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T22:51:26Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-17T22:55:31Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T22:58:27Z kencausey quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-17T23:00:35Z ryanbw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T23:03:07Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-17T23:08:41Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-17T23:09:00Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:13:27Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T23:14:10Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:15:21Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:17:05Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T23:17:20Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:17:53Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T23:18:09Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:18:13Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T23:25:02Z phadthai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T23:25:10Z phadthai joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:26:11Z yegortimoshenko joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:27:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:30:04Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-17T23:33:22Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:36:20Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T23:36:55Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:40:51Z yegortimoshenko left #lisp 2017-07-17T23:40:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:41:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T23:42:58Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:45:12Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:47:26Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-17T23:47:49Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:48:36Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:50:46Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-17T23:51:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:51:22Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-17T23:56:06Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:04:49Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T00:07:18Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-18T00:13:43Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-18T00:27:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:28:55Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-18T00:30:56Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:34:03Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:34:17Z kjak_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-18T00:42:07Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T00:44:16Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:49:04Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds) 2017-07-18T00:49:08Z trn quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-18T00:49:22Z trn joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:52:40Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:53:12Z Thetabit8bit joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:55:59Z amornus joined #lisp 2017-07-18T00:59:56Z Thetabit8bit quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T01:01:17Z amornus 2017-07-18T01:01:55Z dmh: agree 2017-07-18T01:05:02Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:13:23Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:13:29Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:14:01Z ksool quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T01:15:33Z amornus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T01:16:56Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T01:18:04Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:20:22Z phinxy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T01:25:19Z dTal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T01:28:27Z dTal joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:32:08Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:34:09Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:35:08Z efm joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:38:24Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T01:40:18Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:40:44Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:41:12Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T01:41:33Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-18T01:45:27Z reinuseslisp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T02:03:23Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:06:48Z sebboh` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:06:49Z gbyers_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:06:53Z djinni`_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:06:57Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:06:58Z jerme__ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:07:00Z gz__ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:07:14Z trig-ger_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:07:17Z adulteratedjedi_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:07:30Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:07:35Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:07:36Z lonjil joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:08:04Z malcom2073_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:08:22Z Invictor joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:08:42Z LyndsySimon_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:09:20Z HDurer_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:09:57Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:10:44Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:11:04Z __SiCC__ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:12:40Z rjeli_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:12:53Z odin joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:13:18Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:13:55Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:56Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:56Z gbyers quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:56Z rotty quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:56Z sebboh quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:56Z Ellenor quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:56Z birk quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z djinni` quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z HDurer quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z convexferret quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z xristos quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z jself quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z jasom quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z malcom2073 quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z tkd quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z les quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z SiCC quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z rjeli quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z stux|RC-only quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z adulteratedjedi quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z jerme_ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z Odin- quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z gz_ quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z LyndsySimon quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z trig-ger quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:57Z newcup quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:58Z drdo quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:58Z p_l quit (*.net *.split) 2017-07-18T02:13:58Z Invictor is now known as Ellenor 2017-07-18T02:13:58Z gbyers_ is now known as gbyers 2017-07-18T02:14:09Z gz__ is now known as gz_ 2017-07-18T02:14:13Z jerme__ is now known as jerme_ 2017-07-18T02:14:16Z adulteratedjedi_ is now known as adulteratedjedi 2017-07-18T02:14:28Z jasom joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:14:31Z LyndsySimon_ is now known as LyndsySimon 2017-07-18T02:14:40Z rotty joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:14:41Z voidlily joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:14:43Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T02:14:46Z tkd joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:15:04Z drdo joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:15:24Z les joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:17:53Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:18:40Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:18:48Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:19:12Z xristos joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:19:12Z jself joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:20:18Z xristos is now known as Guest48416 2017-07-18T02:28:17Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:30:22Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:31:41Z lanu quit (Quit: Time to sleep!!!) 2017-07-18T02:32:28Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:33:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:34:09Z fkae quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:36:25Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:38:48Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T02:38:49Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:39:31Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:39:45Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T02:41:36Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:41:37Z pjb is now known as Guest5633 2017-07-18T02:41:49Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:43:57Z himmAllRight quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:45:35Z wizzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:48:34Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:51:10Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:52:36Z wizzo joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:52:44Z fkac is now known as fkuc 2017-07-18T02:55:30Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2017-07-18T02:57:03Z wizzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T02:57:18Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T03:00:16Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:00:54Z samebchase joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:04:08Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T03:04:59Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:05:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T03:07:14Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:13:14Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T03:13:58Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-07-18T03:16:35Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:19:21Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:21:12Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T03:28:05Z diegs_` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:29:33Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T03:32:38Z diegs_` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T03:47:08Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:47:48Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T03:48:36Z efm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-18T03:51:05Z efm joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:51:31Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T03:53:20Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T03:54:31Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T03:54:43Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T04:03:51Z convexferret joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:04:22Z p_l joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:05:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T04:07:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:08:19Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-18T04:21:48Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:27:50Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:29:00Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:39:26Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:41:16Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:51:45Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T04:51:59Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-18T04:56:44Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T05:07:20Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:11:06Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-07-18T05:12:49Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:14:13Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-18T05:14:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-18T05:14:45Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:16:19Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:16:46Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-18T05:18:24Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:26:49Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-18T05:35:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:37:34Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T05:37:49Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T05:43:44Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T05:44:57Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T05:45:25Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:47:58Z closkar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T05:54:13Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T05:56:43Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T05:59:46Z heurist` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T06:03:00Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T06:07:11Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T06:10:25Z axion: Does anyone happen to use company-mode in common lisp code buffers? I am trying to switch from auto-complete, but it seems to only be working in the repl mode. I would be interested in checking out someone's emacs config if it's no trouble. 2017-07-18T06:19:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T06:23:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-18T06:26:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T06:27:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T06:28:12Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T06:28:49Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T06:30:51Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T06:45:39Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-18T06:49:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-18T06:52:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-18T06:53:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T07:00:01Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:02:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:03:42Z trig-ger_ is now known as trig-ger 2017-07-18T07:05:23Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T07:10:25Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T07:11:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:12:47Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T07:14:24Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-18T07:15:25Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:15:35Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T07:16:09Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:16:24Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:17:32Z LordLeBrand joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:18:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T07:20:35Z vaporatorius quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-18T07:20:35Z dschoepe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T07:23:10Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:31:57Z phoe: axion: it works for me, but I use spacemacs - it's bundled in. 2017-07-18T07:34:25Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:36:30Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:37:28Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:37:35Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:39:56Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:45:37Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T07:54:13Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:59:20Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:59:31Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-18T07:59:52Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T08:01:04Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2017-07-18T08:03:20Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-18T08:08:01Z anticrisis is now known as anticrisis_ 2017-07-18T08:12:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-18T08:16:30Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T08:20:35Z phoe: What is the Lisp idiomatic way of counting digits of an integer? 2017-07-18T08:20:59Z beach: What base? 2017-07-18T08:21:01Z phoe: I'd use a truncated decimal logarithm for that. 2017-07-18T08:21:03Z phoe: Base 10. 2017-07-18T08:21:16Z beach: I suppose you don't count initial zeros? 2017-07-18T08:21:37Z phoe: I'd always have infinite digits if I counted them. :) 2017-07-18T08:21:44Z beach: Exactly. 2017-07-18T08:21:51Z phoe: I want (digits 1234567890) ;=> 10 in this case. 2017-07-18T08:22:22Z phoe: Also (digits -12345) ;=> 5 and (digits 0) ;=> 1, but these are easy once I have the tool for positive integers. 2017-07-18T08:22:30Z beach: Yes, the logarithm base 10 will probably. You might run into problems with precision if the numbers are large. 2017-07-18T08:23:00Z phoe: Either this, or I print an integer to string and use LENGTH. 2017-07-18T08:23:32Z beach: Does it have to be fast? 2017-07-18T08:23:37Z phoe: Not really. 2017-07-18T08:24:00Z phoe: But then, my numbers won't have more than 100 digits I think, soo. 2017-07-18T08:24:18Z beach: Sure, then the length of the printed representation is probably best. 2017-07-18T08:24:20Z loke: phoe: LOG? 2017-07-18T08:24:28Z phoe: loke: yes, that's what I was thinking. 2017-07-18T08:24:38Z phoe: beach: with so little digits, LOG won't lose precision either. 2017-07-18T08:24:49Z loke: (ceiling (log N 10)) 2017-07-18T08:24:49Z phoe: s/little/few/ 2017-07-18T08:24:54Z beach: "few"? 2017-07-18T08:24:57Z beach: yes. :) 2017-07-18T08:30:52Z otwieracz: Is this possible to match UNIX thread PID with SBCL thread? 2017-07-18T08:31:05Z anticrisis_ is now known as anticrisis 2017-07-18T08:31:33Z loke: otwieracz: Yes. 2017-07-18T08:31:53Z otwieracz: how? 2017-07-18T08:43:28Z loke: Interesting 2017-07-18T08:43:52Z loke: The native function create_thread returns the thread id, but that return value is thrown away. 2017-07-18T08:44:35Z phoe: sounds like an improvement to SBCL 2017-07-18T08:45:01Z loke: I think it would make sense to save that value in the thread structure. 2017-07-18T08:45:12Z loke: You should psot it to the developer mailing list (or better, submit a patch) 2017-07-18T08:45:29Z phoe: just exactly my thoughts about saving it in the thread structure 2017-07-18T08:45:31Z loke: Check the function make-thread in target-thread.lisp 2017-07-18T08:45:42Z phoe: so later it can be retrieved 2017-07-18T08:45:55Z loke: You can see a call to %create-thread there. It checks whether the retyurn value is zero, bu8t if not, it should save it in the thread structure. 2017-07-18T08:46:03Z loke: Should be a small change to that function. 2017-07-18T08:46:13Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-18T08:49:18Z dschoepe joined #lisp 2017-07-18T08:50:31Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-18T08:59:06Z Guest5633 is now known as pjb 2017-07-18T09:02:57Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:05:32Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:07:48Z anticrisis quit (Quit: sleep) 2017-07-18T09:09:57Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:13:42Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T09:18:12Z copec joined #lisp 2017-07-18T09:21:21Z phoe: Is there any MOP way to prevent defining any writer or accessor functions for a class? I want to create a class that is immutable, as in, its slots are only set during creation. 2017-07-18T09:21:42Z phoe: Would this be achievable through a metaclass? 2017-07-18T09:21:50Z LordLeBrand_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T09:24:27Z beach: Sounds doable. 2017-07-18T09:24:58Z LordLeBrand quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:25:12Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/setf-slot-value-using-class.html 2017-07-18T09:26:14Z phoe: That results in an error whenever SETF FOO is called. 2017-07-18T09:26:27Z phoe: Hmmm. 2017-07-18T09:26:52Z beach: You define a subclass of STANDARD-CLASS, and then you define a method on (SETF SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS) that specializes to the new metaclass. 2017-07-18T09:27:03Z beach: The new method calls error. 2017-07-18T09:27:38Z phoe: Will this error be called during the compilation of a SETF method, or when such a method is used? 2017-07-18T09:27:56Z beach: The latter. 2017-07-18T09:28:15Z phoe: Good enough for my use. 2017-07-18T09:28:48Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:28:54Z phoe: And later I go (:metaclass 'immutable-class) inside DEFCLASS, correct? 2017-07-18T09:29:03Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-18T09:29:19Z beach: Not sure about the quote. 2017-07-18T09:30:00Z beach: No quote. 2017-07-18T09:30:05Z phoe: Yes - thanks. 2017-07-18T09:30:35Z phoe just thought of a very bad pun. 2017-07-18T09:30:44Z ludston quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T09:31:03Z phoe: 'not <- this expression is not quoted. 2017-07-18T09:32:12Z beach: Terrible. 2017-07-18T09:34:24Z jeremiah__ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-18T09:35:53Z LordLeBrand_ left #lisp 2017-07-18T09:36:44Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:36:48Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-18T09:37:22Z LordLeBrand joined #lisp 2017-07-18T09:37:59Z phoe: Can metaclasses be introduced by a protocol, since they are just classes after all? 2017-07-18T09:38:07Z easye: ~. 2017-07-18T09:38:36Z phoe: Because it sounds pretty logical for it to work this way. 2017-07-18T09:42:01Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:43:56Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-18T09:46:18Z phoe: More importantly - if I declare this metaclass IMMUTABLE-CLASS to be a protocol class, meaning that it can't be instantiated, will I have to create a STANDARD-IMMUTABLE-CLASS as an implementation and use this as :METACLASS in DEFCLASS? 2017-07-18T09:48:52Z phoe: More generally speaking, are metaclasses instantiated? If so, at which moment? How many? 2017-07-18T09:49:20Z phoe: (Hello AMOP, my old friend...~) 2017-07-18T09:53:47Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:57:05Z pjb: 'is is quoted but 'not is quoted too! 'not is not not quoted. 2017-07-18T09:57:36Z phoe: pjb: so 'not is not quoted but also ' 2017-07-18T09:57:40Z phoe: 'not is not not quoted? 2017-07-18T09:57:51Z pjb: Obviously, since 'not is quoted. 2017-07-18T09:58:31Z phoe: but how can 'not be not not quoted? 2017-07-18T09:58:39Z phoe: I don't understand it. 2017-07-18T09:58:46Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T09:58:46Z pjb: Perhaps I should say: 'is is is quoted. As in 'is is "is quoted". 2017-07-18T09:58:55Z marvin3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T09:59:01Z phoe: Oh, yes. 2017-07-18T09:59:03Z pjb: 'not is "not quoted" therefore it's quoted. 2017-07-18T09:59:17Z phoe: So: 'not is quoted and 'not is not quoted. 2017-07-18T09:59:27Z pjb: yes. 2017-07-18T09:59:31Z pjb: It's a paradox. 2017-07-18T09:59:31Z phoe: There, we broke logic using simple Lisp and simple English. 2017-07-18T09:59:45Z phoe: Can *YOUR* language do this!?!!1 2017-07-18T09:59:51Z phoe coughs, goes back to programming. 2017-07-18T10:01:50Z phoe: ...I seriously need to understand when and how metaclasses are instantiated. 2017-07-18T10:02:13Z loke: phoe: Why? 2017-07-18T10:02:19Z phoe: I have class FOO that subclasses BAR and has a metaclass BAZ which subclasses QUUX. 2017-07-18T10:02:37Z phoe: When I define BAZ, is it instantiated, since it's a metaclass? 2017-07-18T10:02:47Z phoe: If I instantiate FOO, is BAZ instantiated? 2017-07-18T10:02:59Z phoe: If I instantiate another FOO, is another BAZ instantiated? 2017-07-18T10:03:23Z loke: phoe: Does it matter? (the answer is probabloyu no, by the way) 2017-07-18T10:03:40Z phoe: loke: yes, it matters for me. 2017-07-18T10:03:44Z loke: Why? 2017-07-18T10:03:56Z phoe: Because if BAZ is a protocol class, then it cannot be instantiated. Only its subclasses can be instantiated. 2017-07-18T10:04:04Z phoe: So I cannot instantate any FOOs. 2017-07-18T10:04:07Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:04:15Z loke: What do you mean by "can't"? 2017-07-18T10:04:22Z loke: Of course it "can" 2017-07-18T10:04:37Z phoe: I can't instantiate FOO, because it means that I'll have to instantiate BAZ, which is an error. 2017-07-18T10:04:53Z loke: Why is that an error? 2017-07-18T10:05:16Z phoe: Because, by definition, protocol classes cannot be instantiated. BAZ is a protocol class, so I cannot instantiate it. 2017-07-18T10:05:34Z loke: phoe: There is no definition of "protocol class" in the clhs nor the AMOP as far as I know. 2017-07-18T10:05:45Z phoe: Yes, it's only defined in CLIM2 specification. 2017-07-18T10:06:12Z phoe: And also http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf 2017-07-18T10:08:00Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:09:55Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T10:11:57Z _death: phoe: when you define a class, a class object is instantiated.. this is a metaobject, and its class is a metaclass 2017-07-18T10:15:23Z drl joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:17:29Z drl quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-18T10:18:11Z phoe: _death: I think I got it. (trace make-instance) helped me. 2017-07-18T10:18:57Z phoe: so my assumption was correct - I need to create a protocol metaclass, then an concrete metaclass, and then use the concrete metaclass in class definition. 2017-07-18T10:19:00Z phoe: it's classes all the way down. 2017-07-18T10:20:45Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:20:51Z _death: like class and standard-class 2017-07-18T10:21:58Z phoe: Yes - exactly. 2017-07-18T10:22:16Z phoe: What is the proper verb to use when describing the relation between classes and metaclasses? 2017-07-18T10:22:22Z phoe: A class "has" a metaclass? 2017-07-18T10:22:36Z _death: the class of a class is a metaclass 2017-07-18T10:22:45Z loke: phoe: a class is described by (or represented by) a metaclass 2017-07-18T10:22:57Z phoe: loke: exactly what I was looking for, thank you,. 2017-07-18T10:23:01Z loke: the metaclass is the manifestation of the abstract concent of a class 2017-07-18T10:23:10Z loke: concept 2017-07-18T10:23:26Z phoe: loke: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/m_defcla.htm 2017-07-18T10:23:37Z phoe: "The :metaclass class option is used to specify that instances of the class being defined are to have a different metaclass..." 2017-07-18T10:23:48Z phoe: "has" is the verb that CLHS uses - I'll go with that. 2017-07-18T10:25:40Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T10:29:31Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T10:35:20Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T10:36:59Z phoe: beach: I'm in some trouble here. A simple method on (setf slot-value-using-class) prevents me from initializing the object. 2017-07-18T10:37:53Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T10:40:30Z loke: phoe: Why do you try this in the first place? 2017-07-18T10:40:52Z loke: Your code need to check if the slot is unbound, and allow it if it isn't. 2017-07-18T10:40:59Z loke: I mean deny it if it isn't. 2017-07-18T10:41:08Z phoe: loke: correct, thanks. 2017-07-18T10:41:28Z loke: But I find the whole idea to be rather strange. Surely just not defining a writer method is signal enough that the instance isn't meant to be changed. 2017-07-18T10:41:52Z dptd joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:42:31Z phoe: hm. You might be right. 2017-07-18T10:42:42Z phoe: And I think you are. 2017-07-18T10:48:08Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:53:02Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:53:54Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T10:55:33Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-18T10:57:40Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T10:58:12Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:01:31Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:04:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T11:06:38Z beach: What happened to the bots? 2017-07-18T11:06:49Z phoe: clhs adjoin 2017-07-18T11:07:12Z phoe: ...well, they're dead. Have they died when common-lisp.net had an upgrade? 2017-07-18T11:09:04Z beach: That's possible. 2017-07-18T11:11:47Z phoe asks on #common-lisp.net 2017-07-18T11:12:30Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:12:44Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:13:26Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:18:05Z dispersed quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T11:30:58Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T11:32:20Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:32:28Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T11:33:47Z Thetabit quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-18T11:33:56Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:34:09Z thetabit joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:34:36Z thetabit quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-18T11:35:14Z server001 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:39:30Z thetabit joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:49:23Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-18T11:52:27Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T11:53:34Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T11:58:28Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T11:59:14Z phoe: beach: Can protocols depend on each other? I have protocols FOO and BAR, where FOO has an operation FROB and BAR has an operation SCER; SCER calls FROB as a part of its operation. 2017-07-18T11:59:36Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:00:05Z phoe: Does it mean that both of these protocols should be merged into one, or is such a "dependency" okay? 2017-07-18T12:01:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:02:33Z beach: Yes, protocols can depend on each other for implementation. 2017-07-18T12:03:52Z beach: But "protocol" really means just the interface, so there is no implementation there. 2017-07-18T12:04:24Z beach: So using "operation" in the context of a protocol is a bit strange. 2017-07-18T12:04:42Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T12:05:34Z Ichimusai left #lisp 2017-07-18T12:06:04Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:06:40Z phoe: beach: I got the term from you, http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf first sentence. 2017-07-18T12:08:05Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-18T12:12:29Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:16:30Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T12:19:27Z tetero: What are some things Common Lisp is not well suited for? 2017-07-18T12:19:31Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T12:19:37Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T12:20:00Z phoe: tetero: systems with small amounts of RAM, embedded systems for example. 2017-07-18T12:20:16Z tetero: Oh, that makes sens 2017-07-18T12:20:19Z tetero: sense* 2017-07-18T12:20:25Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:20:30Z phoe: There are exceptions to this, for example, Roomba was written using a subset of Common Lisp that was then compiled to code that ran on microcontrollers. 2017-07-18T12:20:32Z tetero: I assume, also, low-level hardware stuff? 2017-07-18T12:20:47Z schweers: doing manual memory management can be quite a bit of a hassle 2017-07-18T12:20:59Z tetero: Then again, GOOL and GOAL did some low-level stuff if I understand correctly 2017-07-18T12:21:26Z phoe: Low-level hardware stuff is doable. But then again, define "low-level hardware stuff". 2017-07-18T12:21:43Z schweers: phoe: roomba the vacuum cleaner robot? 2017-07-18T12:21:59Z schweers: I wouldn’t want to write a bootloader for x86 in common lisp 2017-07-18T12:22:11Z phoe: schweers: yes, roomba the vacuum cleaner robot 2017-07-18T12:22:22Z schweers: cool 2017-07-18T12:22:54Z phoe: schweers: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/pubpg/luv95.pdf 2017-07-18T12:22:58Z phoe: this is the paper describing it. 2017-07-18T12:23:15Z tetero: Would it even be possible to write a kernel in Lisp? 2017-07-18T12:23:23Z schweers: cool, thanks 2017-07-18T12:23:26Z phoe: tetero: have you seen Mezzano? 2017-07-18T12:23:30Z tetero: phoe: I have not 2017-07-18T12:23:38Z schweers: tetero: if I understand correctly, that’s what was done on lisp machines 2017-07-18T12:23:48Z schweers: but I may be wrong 2017-07-18T12:23:56Z tetero: schweers: Mezzano seems interesting, thanks! 2017-07-18T12:24:04Z phoe: tetero: so 1) lisp machines had a full lisp OS, 2) https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano 2017-07-18T12:24:18Z phoe: this is Common Lisp implementation that is also an operating system. :) 2017-07-18T12:24:19Z schweers: credit where it is due, phoe mentioned it, not me ;) 2017-07-18T12:24:25Z tetero: Yeah I'm checking out the mezzano github now 2017-07-18T12:24:30Z tetero: Ah, sorry :) 2017-07-18T12:24:30Z beach: phoe: "operation" in this context means roughly "a function". You used it "for its operation" which suggests that it is doing something. 2017-07-18T12:24:40Z phoe: beach: OH! I got it. 2017-07-18T12:24:56Z phoe: tetero: grab VirtualBox, download the latest demo (third one I think) and go play Quake-on-a-Lisp. 2017-07-18T12:25:12Z phoe: Seriously. Mezzano runs Quake and Doom. Which are written in C. 2017-07-18T12:25:14Z schweers: quake? 2017-07-18T12:25:24Z schweers: ah, that’s what you mean 2017-07-18T12:25:26Z tetero: phoe: Since your talk of CCFI, I got a bit curious as to the more unusual uses of Lisp. Ran into GOAL/GOOL which, while not Common Lisp, is a pretty cool example of what you /can/ do 2017-07-18T12:25:35Z closkar joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:25:36Z tetero: phoe: That's pretty awesome 2017-07-18T12:25:39Z phoe: tetero: http://imgur.com/a/hCNh6 2017-07-18T12:25:48Z phoe: CFFI isn't the fun side of Lisp. 2017-07-18T12:25:57Z phoe: It's the side of Lisp that I have to live with. 2017-07-18T12:26:15Z phoe: If anything, Mezzano is one of the fun parts of Lisp. 2017-07-18T12:26:22Z schweers: phoe: I gues it depends what kind of a person one is 2017-07-18T12:26:36Z phoe: schweers: well, yes, that's correct. 2017-07-18T12:26:37Z tetero: phoe: I suppose, but it's interesting/fascinating nonetheless 2017-07-18T12:27:14Z tetero: Very cool (mezzano screen) 2017-07-18T12:27:15Z phoe: tetero: well, CFFI makes it easy to create a REPL in which you can poke/peek arbitrary bytes of memory - kind of like it was back in the days of simple computers like Apple 2 2017-07-18T12:27:18Z schweers: I know people who love doing low-level stuff and even I can sometimes get a rush out of doing things at a low level 2017-07-18T12:27:24Z schweers: but mostly it’s annoying 2017-07-18T12:27:30Z tetero: phoe: ah 2017-07-18T12:27:36Z phoe: tetero: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/64p5cx/video_of_mezzano_demo_3/ 2017-07-18T12:28:46Z phoe: beach: I am confused now. Yes, I wrote, "for its operation" - I think that MOP contains parts like this, where a description of function FOO has a phrase that under some circumstances function FOO will call function BAR. 2017-07-18T12:29:13Z tetero: phoe: It's impressive 2017-07-18T12:30:06Z schweers: I’m always sad when I see something like mezzano, because I know I’ll never be able to use it for real :/ 2017-07-18T12:30:28Z phoe: schweers: I have to say you're wrong 2017-07-18T12:30:39Z schweers: how so? 2017-07-18T12:31:01Z phoe: you don't know what future brings, and if Mezzano got it to this level from pure scratch, then it can go from this level to be much more usable 2017-07-18T12:31:14Z schweers: hmm 2017-07-18T12:31:16Z phoe: (and it already runs on bare metal on some compatible hardware, sooo) 2017-07-18T12:31:27Z schweers: I’m not saying that mezzano itself won’t become usable 2017-07-18T12:31:50Z schweers: I just fear that it will never have enough software because people will be scared of it 2017-07-18T12:31:59Z schweers: but then, they were scared of linux too, so maybe you’re right 2017-07-18T12:32:05Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-18T12:32:54Z tetero: How many devs make mezzano? 2017-07-18T12:33:19Z phoe: tetero: I think you can check the git logs for who contributes there, or how many contributors there are in total with how many commits. 2017-07-18T12:34:40Z schweers: do you know off the top of your head how they got quake and doom (i.e. existing applications) to run on mezzano? I’m guessing some sort of emulation or compatibility layer 2017-07-18T12:34:45Z phoe: nope 2017-07-18T12:34:55Z phoe: they compiled C/C++ to LLVM-IR 2017-07-18T12:35:16Z phoe: and LLVM-IR to Common Lisp I think 2017-07-18T12:35:39Z tetero: I'm surprised that even worked 2017-07-18T12:35:42Z beach: phoe: Yes, I guess that could exceptionally be part of the description. 2017-07-18T12:35:56Z schweers: um … they translated the C code to CL? but still, I’m wondering because of all the APIs these programs use (for instance opengl) 2017-07-18T12:36:02Z phoe: schweers: yes. 2017-07-18T12:36:15Z phoe: I think they implemented some SDL in pure Lisp for graphic-drawing. 2017-07-18T12:36:25Z schweers: not bad 2017-07-18T12:36:30Z phoe: there's no OpenGL used there AFAIK. 2017-07-18T12:36:33Z tetero: Damn. I'm looking at the Mezzano contributors, and while it has 8 contributors, almost all code is written by one guy 2017-07-18T12:36:37Z phoe: beach: okay - thanks. 2017-07-18T12:36:42Z phoe: tetero: froggey, huh? :) 2017-07-18T12:36:45Z tetero: yeah 2017-07-18T12:37:04Z phoe: froggey: c'mere, they're throwing praise at you 2017-07-18T12:37:07Z tetero: Not to take away from froggey, but it definitely flexes some of lisps muscles in output if one knows it well 2017-07-18T12:37:32Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:38:12Z phoe: sure thing, Lisp is a pretty good language - and Mezzano is one of the proofs. 2017-07-18T12:38:44Z phoe: beach: I've noticed that I'm asking a lot of questions about protocols. 2017-07-18T12:39:01Z tetero: phoe: aye 2017-07-18T12:39:17Z tetero: phoe: It seems to give you plenty of rope that you can either use to do something great, or hang yourself with 2017-07-18T12:39:22Z beach: phoe: Not a problem for me. 2017-07-18T12:39:52Z phoe: While I do it for my own purposes, as in, I'm trying to grasp and understand what protocols are and aren't, I kind of hope that I'm also asking questions difficult enough to cover some corner cases in your chapter about protocols. 2017-07-18T12:40:07Z beach: I understand. 2017-07-18T12:40:32Z schweers: I can’t help it, but I don’t think that lisp makes it particularly easy to hang oneself with, unless performance is particularly relevant 2017-07-18T12:40:36Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T12:40:37Z phoe: Like this thing right here, about protocol descriptions mentioning calling other operations. 2017-07-18T12:41:03Z phoe: tetero: actually, uh, it's hard to hang yourself with Lisp 2017-07-18T12:42:00Z phoe: you get nice errors the moment you try to do something wrong 2017-07-18T12:42:01Z axion: schweers: what do you mean by that statement? 2017-07-18T12:42:30Z schweers: I mean that I don’t find that lisp makes it easy to hang oneself, on the contrary 2017-07-18T12:42:40Z phoe: compared to C, where the language is literally segfault-by-default 2017-07-18T12:42:44Z axion: the bit about performance? 2017-07-18T12:42:58Z schweers: although lisp programs can become anbearibly slow if one doesn’t know what one is doing 2017-07-18T12:43:07Z schweers: emphasis on /can/ 2017-07-18T12:43:10Z axion: That isn't anything specific to Lisp 2017-07-18T12:43:16Z phoe: schweers: s/lisp programs/programs/ 2017-07-18T12:43:17Z schweers: true 2017-07-18T12:43:22Z beach: That can happen in any language. 2017-07-18T12:43:31Z beach: And it does when the programmers are incompetent. 2017-07-18T12:43:31Z schweers: yeah ok, you’re right ;) 2017-07-18T12:43:43Z phoe: one can write a O(2^n) algorithm in any programming language 2017-07-18T12:43:43Z schweers: which everyone is, at some point 2017-07-18T12:43:51Z schweers: or worse 2017-07-18T12:43:55Z tetero: phoe: I was comparing more to languages that really restrict you into one way of doing things like Java/C# which are increasingly popular these days 2017-07-18T12:44:12Z phoe: I bet I can write a O(2^n) list traversal, I just need to think for a moment... 2017-07-18T12:44:32Z phoe: tetero: then it's a question of paradigms and not shooting one in the foot. 2017-07-18T12:44:55Z tetero: Well, those paradigms do make it more difficult for people to shoot themselves in the foot 2017-07-18T12:45:00Z phoe: Lisp is simply a multi-paradigm language, where C has a strong imperative paradigm and Java is object-oriented*. 2017-07-18T12:45:18Z phoe: tetero: no amount of paradigms in C make this language less prone to foot shooting. 2017-07-18T12:45:35Z tetero: I'm not comparing with C ;) 2017-07-18T12:45:40Z schweers: tetero: I would argue that shooting oneself in the foot is the default M.O. for the so-called traditional OO languages 2017-07-18T12:45:41Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T12:45:52Z tetero: schweers: I suppose. Maybe it's a bad analogy 2017-07-18T12:46:07Z phoe: schweers: we need to define shooting oneself in the foot at this point, I think. 2017-07-18T12:46:19Z schweers: hehe 2017-07-18T12:46:20Z phoe: Is it a segfault? An exception? A recoverable error? 2017-07-18T12:46:27Z tetero: I think that my analogy was just not very good to begin with, so I'm not sure if it warrants deep discussion :) 2017-07-18T12:46:30Z phoe: stack corruption? :) 2017-07-18T12:46:32Z schweers: I’d say it’s a class or an object *ducks and runs* 2017-07-18T12:46:40Z schweers: probably a singleton 2017-07-18T12:46:49Z tetero: Oh god. 2017-07-18T12:47:32Z tetero: Singleton's made me utter the words "Seriously?" when I first learned of them 2017-07-18T12:47:47Z phoe: I think https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/4mo21b/true_descriptions_of_languages/ is a good summary of this discussion so far. 2017-07-18T12:48:02Z phoe: And I don't think I have anything to add at this point. (: 2017-07-18T12:49:53Z tetero: phoe: hahaha 2017-07-18T12:50:02Z tetero: My favourite is Malbolge 2017-07-18T12:50:25Z schweers: I’ve never looked into that 2017-07-18T12:50:29Z phoe: tetero: go look at its source code. You'll understand. 2017-07-18T12:50:44Z tetero: phoe: I know of it! I read of it along with unlambda and intercal :) 2017-07-18T12:51:28Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T12:51:55Z froggey: hi 2017-07-18T12:52:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T12:52:45Z beach: Hello froggey. 2017-07-18T12:52:47Z phoe: hey froggey 2017-07-18T12:53:20Z beach: froggey: Is there a description of how Mezzano is bootstrapped somewhere? Failing that, can you describe it in a few sentences? 2017-07-18T12:54:12Z beach: By "bootstrapped" I mean "built from source". 2017-07-18T12:54:22Z phoe: AFAIK it uses some other Lisp for cross-compiling, but froggey will explain it so much better than me 2017-07-18T12:54:36Z beach: phoe: That's the easy part. 2017-07-18T12:54:49Z froggey: sure 2017-07-18T12:56:59Z froggey: the mezzano compiler is loaded into a host lisp (currently sbcl) and used as a cross-compiler. a few package hacks are used to redirect some symbols (macro-function, various constants, things like that) so they refer the cross-compiler's environment instead of the host lisp's environment 2017-07-18T12:57:21Z beach: OK. And this is the file compiler? 2017-07-18T12:58:13Z phoe: beach: I actually hope that some of my protocol questions and/or remarks make it into the chapter, so I can later refer myself and other people to that chapter. 2017-07-18T12:58:50Z froggey: kind of. the compiler proper is the normal mezzano compiler but the file-compilation parts are reimplemented for the cross compiler 2017-07-18T12:59:02Z phoe: But that chapter is your domain, not mine, so I leave it to you. :) 2017-07-18T12:59:44Z beach: froggey: I mean, the cross compiler spits out something like FASLs? 2017-07-18T12:59:49Z froggey: yes 2017-07-18T13:00:07Z beach: So how do you build the system into which those fasls are loaded? 2017-07-18T13:01:25Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:02:21Z froggey: the cold-generator parses the fasls and produces an image. it detects & executes top-level defun forms at image-build time, while it arranges for other top-level forms to be deferred until some time in run-time initialization 2017-07-18T13:03:26Z froggey: the initial image produced by the cold-generator only contains a subset of common lisp. enough for the fasl loader to run, which is used to load most of the remaining fasls file 2017-07-18T13:03:32Z thetabit: Good morning everyone 2017-07-18T13:03:40Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T13:04:29Z beach: froggey: "parses the fasls" sounds a bit mysterious. What is the format of your fasl files? 2017-07-18T13:05:11Z phoe: Hey thetabit 2017-07-18T13:06:50Z thetabit: Could I get some help with solving this problem I've been having this week with a special flat file parser? I've been asking various questions here, but I'm still not getting things right. Would someone be willing to take a look at the problem and give some guidance? :D 2017-07-18T13:07:22Z froggey: they contain operations for a simple stack machine that's used to assemble lisp values & eval code 2017-07-18T13:07:43Z phoe: thetabit: post the problem up first, so #lisp can take a look at it 2017-07-18T13:07:47Z beach: froggey: Ah, I see. Similar to SBCL? 2017-07-18T13:07:50Z thetabit: Okay 2017-07-18T13:07:52Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:07:54Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:07:56Z thetabit: I am writing it out now 2017-07-18T13:08:09Z froggey: I don't know how SBCL's fasls work 2017-07-18T13:08:19Z beach: froggey: OK, no problem. 2017-07-18T13:08:34Z beach: froggey: But I assume the fasls also contain native code, right? 2017-07-18T13:08:36Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-18T13:08:51Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:09:31Z froggey: right. functions are represented as chunks of native code, the cold-generate can't do anything beyond just storing them in the image 2017-07-18T13:09:53Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T13:10:09Z beach: So how do you execute top-level functions at image-build time? 2017-07-18T13:11:36Z froggey: simple top-level forms get stored as lisp expressions (though represented in the stack machine format). (defun foo () ...) ends up as something like SYMBOL "%DEFUN" SYMBOL "FOO" FUNCTION [machine-code] PROPER-LIST 3 EVAL, which can be interepreted by the cold generator 2017-07-18T13:11:41Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T13:12:42Z beach: I see. 2017-07-18T13:13:01Z froggey: and the cold-generator only understands calls to %DEFUN, it defers anything it doesn't understand 2017-07-18T13:13:29Z beach: froggey: Got it. Is this documented somewhere? 2017-07-18T13:14:02Z froggey: no, sorry. I should write this up properly 2017-07-18T13:14:22Z beach: Please do! :) 2017-07-18T13:14:45Z beach: If you can squeeze it into 8 pages, you can submit it to ELS. 2017-07-18T13:15:00Z phoe: *8 pages of really small and dense text 2017-07-18T13:15:34Z beach: Well, it could be a summary. The full story would be bigger of course. 2017-07-18T13:16:45Z Bike: sbcl fasls have a separate stack and table based bytecode that can handle a few top level forms. pretty obscure even as sbcl guts go 2017-07-18T13:16:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:16:50Z froggey: ELS? as a paper/talk? it seem a bit obscure 2017-07-18T13:17:06Z beach: froggey: Why? 2017-07-18T13:17:23Z froggey: er, bootstrapping mezzano seems a bit obscure, not ELS :) 2017-07-18T13:17:29Z phoe: froggey: as an ELS participant I'd love to hear more about this, actually 2017-07-18T13:17:37Z phoe: mostly because it's obscure, too :D 2017-07-18T13:18:05Z Bike: fasl formats are kind of an interesting topic. if there was more consciousness of how compile-file actually works we could maybe improve it 2017-07-18T13:18:12Z beach: froggey: I think it is a perfect fit for ELS. 2017-07-18T13:18:49Z froggey: I've found people generally tend not to care how bootstrapping works, only that it does work. or at least, they don't ask about it 2017-07-18T13:19:16Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:20:49Z phoe: I'd love to hear about how this works despite me not having asked many questions about it. 2017-07-18T13:21:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:21:11Z beach: froggey: Have you read Xof's paper about bootstrapping SBCL? 2017-07-18T13:21:53Z froggey: I don't think so 2017-07-18T13:21:56Z beach: https://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/s32008/sbcl.pdf 2017-07-18T13:21:57Z phoe: "SHOCK! He Bootstrapped His Own LispOS In Ten Steps! Here's How... [SEE SCREENSHOTS] [LINK]" 2017-07-18T13:22:07Z froggey: thanks, I'll have a look 2017-07-18T13:22:25Z phoe: ...so that's where SBCL's name originally came from 2017-07-18T13:22:43Z beach: froggey: I have another question. I may have many more as I learn more about Mezzano. For now: Does this technique mean that some parts of Mezzano must be written in a subset of Common Lisp? 2017-07-18T13:22:50Z beach: phoe: No. 2017-07-18T13:23:00Z beach: phoe: Steel Bank Common Lisp. 2017-07-18T13:23:22Z beach: Steel is what Carnegie did and Banking is what Mellon did [or was it the other way around?] 2017-07-18T13:23:24Z phoe: beach: I actually double-checked that just as you wrote this. But the paper's title is amusing. 2017-07-18T13:23:32Z beach: It is. 2017-07-18T13:23:48Z beach: phoe: Get it? Carnegie Mellon? 2017-07-18T13:25:43Z froggey: it does. cross-compiled files can't use CLOS (defclass/defgeneric/defmethod) in compile-time code and there are some restrictions on packages (though I forget what) 2017-07-18T13:25:45Z thetabit: Okay let's start with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351165 and I can explain more :) 2017-07-18T13:25:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:26:06Z beach: froggey: Thanks. 2017-07-18T13:26:23Z froggey: the cross-compiler itself has no such restrictions, as it is loaded as ordinary code into the host 2017-07-18T13:26:48Z beach: I see. 2017-07-18T13:26:55Z beach: phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie 2017-07-18T13:27:35Z beach: phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Mellon 2017-07-18T13:28:06Z froggey: the supervisor (kernel-like code) also cannot use CLOS, but that's due to restrictions on how and when objects can be allocated 2017-07-18T13:28:43Z beach: froggey: But there must be shared code between the native compiler and the cross compiler, right? 2017-07-18T13:28:48Z beach: Can such code use CLOS? 2017-07-18T13:29:48Z froggey: yes 2017-07-18T13:30:13Z phoe: beach: Yes, get it. :D 2017-07-18T13:31:01Z froggey: sorry for the terse answer, I'm a little tired & can't quite explain things... 2017-07-18T13:31:20Z beach: froggey: No need to be sorry. I think I understand a bit better. 2017-07-18T13:31:31Z froggey: the cross compiler is the native compiler + some additional code to make it work in a non-mezzano implementation 2017-07-18T13:31:34Z beach: froggey: But it would definitely be a good thing to write this down. 2017-07-18T13:31:51Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T13:32:42Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:32:47Z beach: froggey: So if cross-compiled files can't use CLOS, how is the compiler loaded into the image? 2017-07-18T13:35:59Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T13:37:26Z froggey: cross-compiled files can't use CLOS at compile-time. normal use is fine, assuming they're run after CLOS is initialized 2017-07-18T13:37:34Z froggey: the cold-generator has two lists of files: the cold files (theses are the ones it examines for top-level defun forms), and the warm files (which it doesn't parse at all, and includes them wholesale in the image) 2017-07-18T13:38:05Z froggey: during runtime-initialization the warm files are loaded one by one using LOAD 2017-07-18T13:38:37Z froggey: the first set of warm files to be loaded is CLOS, which makes it available for use by subsequent files 2017-07-18T13:38:45Z froggey: and the compiler is loaded after CLOS 2017-07-18T13:38:47Z pjb: My goal in life: get financing from https://www.custard.co.uk/ and https://www.maille.com so that I can make a Custard & Mustard Common Lisp ! 2017-07-18T13:39:46Z beach: froggey: OK, now I am confused. 2017-07-18T13:40:35Z beach: froggey: So you are saying that, although the host system has CLOS, it can't be used to cross compile the files that will make up the initial set of FASLs? 2017-07-18T13:42:07Z froggey: that's right. (defgeneric ...) expands into (mezzano.clos:ensure-class ...) and there's no implementation of mezzano.clos:ensure-class in the host 2017-07-18T13:42:23Z beach: Got it. 2017-07-18T13:42:31Z froggey: I could implement it, but I haven't really had a need for it 2017-07-18T13:43:03Z beach: Can you characterize the contents of the files that are cross compiled? 2017-07-18T13:43:13Z beach: [sorry for being so inquisitive] 2017-07-18T13:43:32Z froggey: it's fine, I'm happy to answer questions 2017-07-18T13:43:46Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:45:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:45:37Z beach: My last question was meant for me to understand what parts you had to write without using CLOS. 2017-07-18T13:47:56Z froggey: without using CLOS at compile-time or without using CLOS at run-time? 2017-07-18T13:49:41Z froggey: there's the supervisor (mostly ordinary functions & variables), the cold runtime (the GC, basic macros, sequence functions, hash-tables, the reader, numbers, arrays) and the package system 2017-07-18T13:49:48Z froggey: those are compiled & run without CLOS 2017-07-18T13:49:52Z beach: Maybe I am not expressing myself very well, or maybe I am misunderstanding something. You use the host to create cross compiled files. The code in those files can not have an defclass, defgeneric, defmethod etc in them if I understand it correctly. So I am interested in what those files contain, so that I can understand what you had to write using something else. 2017-07-18T13:50:58Z beach: OK, I think that answers my question. 2017-07-18T13:51:12Z froggey: I think I see where the misunderstanding is: (defgeneric foo ...) works fine in when cross cross-compiling, but (eval-when (:compile-toplevel ...) (defgeneric foo ...)) does not 2017-07-18T13:51:36Z beach: Ah, OK. 2017-07-18T13:51:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T13:52:18Z froggey: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/tools/cold-generator.lisp#L32 2017-07-18T13:52:59Z beach: Thanks. 2017-07-18T13:53:03Z froggey: files in *supervisor-source-files* and *source-files* must run without CLOS, files after closette.lisp in *warm-source-files* can use CLOS 2017-07-18T13:53:45Z beach: Yes, that gives a very good idea. 2017-07-18T13:55:53Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T13:57:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:58:39Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-18T13:59:03Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T14:00:31Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:04:15Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:05:16Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:05:59Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:06:37Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:07:14Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-18T14:07:25Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:08:13Z deba5e12: quick question re: macros. I'm looking to write a macro that will expand to multiple toplevel defparameter expressions on the fly -- a sort of "define a bunch of type-specific variations on pattern X" kind of thing. I've gotten to the point that I can construct each of the defparameter expressions properly, but i'm left with a list of them at the top level. how should I go about unpacking this list, so 2017-07-18T14:08:19Z deba5e12: that each member sits at the top level of the package? (alternatively: is there a more idiomatic way of doing what i'm trying to do?) 2017-07-18T14:08:29Z phoe: How can I specialize on class objects? 2017-07-18T14:08:40Z beach: deba5e12: wrap them in PROGN. 2017-07-18T14:08:43Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:08:49Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:08:57Z phoe: (defmethod bar ((baz (eq (find-class 'foo)))) ...)? 2017-07-18T14:08:57Z Xach: phoe: a specific one? 2017-07-18T14:09:05Z Xach: phoe: EQL instead of EQ in that cae 2017-07-18T14:09:12Z phoe: EQL, yes - sorry. 2017-07-18T14:09:15Z deba5e12: nice. that'll define variables at toplevel scope? thanks, beach. 2017-07-18T14:09:17Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:09:20Z beach: deba5e12: I.e., don't unpack them. Leave them packaged as the body of a PROGN. 2017-07-18T14:09:24Z phoe: I want to specialize on a specific class, yes. 2017-07-18T14:09:34Z beach: deba5e12: Yes, PROGN preserves top-level-ness. 2017-07-18T14:09:41Z phoe: (defmacro foo () `(progn ,(bar) ,(baz) ,(quux))) 2017-07-18T14:10:05Z phoe: or evem 2017-07-18T14:10:10Z phoe: (defmacro foo () `(progn (bar) (baz) (quux))) 2017-07-18T14:10:12Z phoe: even* 2017-07-18T14:10:16Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-18T14:10:32Z deba5e12: awesome. thank you! 2017-07-18T14:10:37Z deba5e12: worked like a charm. 2017-07-18T14:10:43Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-18T14:11:03Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T14:13:42Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:13:47Z LordLeBrand_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:14:52Z LordLeBrand quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:14:54Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:15:21Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:16:10Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:17:08Z LordLeBrand| joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:17:35Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:17:39Z JuanDaugherty quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-18T14:20:10Z LordLeBrand_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:20:19Z Teemo joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:20:57Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:21:33Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:22:33Z thetabit: I am trying to install cl-ppcre, I've loaded quicklisp fine, but then when I do (ql:quickload :cl-ccpre) I get an error which seems very cryptic, An exception occurred in context #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X063BBAD0): #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X063BCCE0). (Exception code: 1722) 2017-07-18T14:22:40Z thetabit: I have no idea what this means, ha 2017-07-18T14:23:00Z pjb: It would work better with (ql:quickload :cl-ppcre) 2017-07-18T14:23:31Z thetabit: haha, sorry that was atypo here, it is correct 2017-07-18T14:23:35Z thetabit: lol 2017-07-18T14:23:54Z Bike: that's a pretty low level error. you get that just from loading ppcre? 2017-07-18T14:24:04Z thetabit: yeah 2017-07-18T14:24:50Z thetabit: And before the error it says: To load "cl-ppcre": Install 1 Quicklisp release: cl-ppcre 2017-07-18T14:25:52Z phoe: thetabit: Ouch. 2017-07-18T14:25:57Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:25:57Z phoe: #sbcl will be able to help you better. 2017-07-18T14:26:05Z phoe: This is a very low-level error. 2017-07-18T14:26:13Z thetabit: okay 2017-07-18T14:26:29Z thetabit: I'm curious if it is because I am behind a firewall 2017-07-18T14:26:33Z phoe: Nope. 2017-07-18T14:26:55Z phoe: That's because something screwed up in the OS layer. 2017-07-18T14:27:04Z phoe: What is your OS? 2017-07-18T14:27:11Z phoe: Because it looks like Windows. 2017-07-18T14:27:18Z thetabit: Yes, it's windows 2017-07-18T14:27:20Z thetabit: lol 2017-07-18T14:27:29Z thetabit: not my default os 2017-07-18T14:27:34Z thetabit: but I have to use it at work :( 2017-07-18T14:28:02Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:28:14Z phoe: at my work, I grabbed VirtualBox and installed debian on it 2017-07-18T14:28:25Z phoe: so I finally have a sane operating system 2017-07-18T14:28:27Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:28:54Z schweers: phoe: do you develop for windows? 2017-07-18T14:29:21Z phoe: schweers: yes, I do. I have Windows VMs at home for that. 2017-07-18T14:29:46Z schweers: just out of curiosity: why use linux when developing for windows? do you cross-compile? 2017-07-18T14:30:37Z phoe: I'm developing for Lisp, first and foremost. 2017-07-18T14:30:50Z phoe: when I need to make a windows build, I fire up a windows VM and build there. 2017-07-18T14:31:05Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:31:10Z phoe: and I use Linux when developing for Windows because I seriously dislike Windows as an OS. 2017-07-18T14:31:10Z schweers: didn’t you just say that you have linux in the vm? 2017-07-18T14:31:20Z phoe: < phoe> schweers: yes, I do. I have Windows VMs at home for that. 2017-07-18T14:31:27Z phoe: I said "Windows VMs". 2017-07-18T14:31:29Z phoe: Oh. 2017-07-18T14:31:38Z phoe: At work, I have Windows on bare metal with Linux in VMs. 2017-07-18T14:31:46Z phoe: At home, it's the reverse. :) 2017-07-18T14:31:50Z schweers: I meant at work. I’m just wondering why your employer doesn’t allow you to choose if it’s not that relevant 2017-07-18T14:32:07Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:32:11Z phoe: He does allow me to choose, as of late, and I'm actually considering switching to Linux. 2017-07-18T14:32:22Z phoe: But before, I couldn't switch to Linux, and had to do with a virtualized debian. 2017-07-18T14:32:29Z phoe: And now I'm using it because of inertia. 2017-07-18T14:32:31Z schweers: ugh 2017-07-18T14:32:36Z schweers: well, better than windows 2017-07-18T14:32:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:35:04Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:37:37Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:38:14Z marvin3: i'd switch to linux completely in a heartbeat if adobe ported photoshop and lightroom 2017-07-18T14:40:08Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:40:24Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:40:35Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:40:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:45:04Z LordLeBrand| quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:45:40Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T14:45:48Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:48:19Z nicdev` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T14:49:12Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:51:03Z LordLeBrand joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:52:00Z tetero: The linux platform wouldn't survive such a code port 2017-07-18T14:52:12Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:52:32Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:52:58Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:53:41Z LordLeBrand_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:55:52Z LordLeBrand quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-18T14:58:54Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T14:59:38Z phoe: tetero: it survived wine and running Microsoft Office and Photoshop on top of itself 2017-07-18T14:59:43Z phoe: it'll survive a native port 2017-07-18T15:03:01Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:04:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:06:35Z LordLeBrand joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:07:37Z efm__ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:07:58Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:08:09Z Teemo left #lisp 2017-07-18T15:08:33Z LordLeBrand_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:08:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:09:01Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:12:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:14:10Z LordLeBrand quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:14:26Z LordLeBrand_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:15:50Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T15:16:15Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:17:06Z LordLeBrand| joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:18:56Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:19:56Z LordLeBrand_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:21:10Z phoe: ...my Lisp *did* become much more readable over time. 2017-07-18T15:21:12Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351170 2017-07-18T15:21:21Z schweers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T15:23:33Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:23:47Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:25:10Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:25:44Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T15:27:37Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:31:38Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:32:01Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:32:13Z efm__ is now known as efm 2017-07-18T15:39:48Z d4ryus3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:39:49Z rumbler31: anyone on ubuntu here get swank from the repo? or do you use quicklisp slime helper instead? or slime direct from source? 2017-07-18T15:39:59Z tetero: phoe: Just a joke about Adobe flash bringing down all computers ;) 2017-07-18T15:40:18Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:40:41Z dlowe: I always use quicklisp slime helper 2017-07-18T15:41:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:42:27Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:42:58Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:43:31Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:43:31Z Xach: i get some stuff from package-install but slime still comes from slime-helper 2017-07-18T15:44:59Z warweasle quit (Quit: back later) 2017-07-18T15:45:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:45:37Z rumbler31: nm, seems like the ubuntu repo has an old version of swank 2017-07-18T15:45:43Z rumbler31: thanks Xach 2017-07-18T15:46:35Z LordLeBrand| quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:48:07Z teggi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T15:48:40Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:50:52Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:52:06Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-18T15:52:57Z teggi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T15:55:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:57:00Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T15:59:13Z rumbler31: I know I've asked this a few times, but with the slime-helper, I imagine that a particular version of slime/swank is installed once. do I re-run the slime-helper code in order to update where emacs looks for a new slime? 2017-07-18T16:00:06Z Xach: rumbler31: I think you may be able to re-load the slime-helper file to update things. 2017-07-18T16:00:26Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:00:35Z Xach: I know it is not ideal, but restarting emacs should pick up any changes too. 2017-07-18T16:01:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T16:04:15Z rumbler31: so if I wanted to start a remote lisp and have it run (swank:create-server), after using the slime-helper tool to get it installed, is it appropriate to (ql:swank), or do I have to find the swank.lisp file from wherever the helper installed it and load that instead? how do you normally get such a thing set up 2017-07-18T16:04:30Z Xach: Oh, you don't need slime-helper one bit on a remote lisp. 2017-07-18T16:04:54Z Xach: you need swank. 2017-07-18T16:05:00Z Xach: (ql:quickload "swank") will load it. 2017-07-18T16:05:18Z Xach: quicklisp-slime-helper is for the computer where emacs is. 2017-07-18T16:05:49Z Xach: When I do that, I start swank on the remote, tunnel the port to the local system, then use M-x slime-connect on the local. 2017-07-18T16:06:08Z rumbler31: do you worry about the "versions differ" warning message? 2017-07-18T16:07:10Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-18T16:08:57Z rumbler31: (swank:((sadf 2017-07-18T16:09:01Z rumbler31: whoops, sorry 2017-07-18T16:09:48Z rumbler31: ahh, I see I need a restart of emacs 2017-07-18T16:10:20Z Xach: rumbler31: I do. I work around that by using the latest on the server and local system. 2017-07-18T16:10:40Z Xach: rumbler31: If that's not an option, you could "lock" versions by manually installing slime and swank separate from the Quicklisp updates. 2017-07-18T16:11:28Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T16:12:10Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:12:24Z rumbler31: when you say that you work around it, you mean that you normally go install the latest on both places, not using quicklisp? At this time, everything seems to match now. Just curious how you manage changes 2017-07-18T16:12:28Z rumbler31: and thank you 2017-07-18T16:12:48Z Xach: rumbler31: I use the latest quicklisp stuff in all places I need 2017-07-18T16:15:44Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T16:16:52Z m00natic` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:16:52Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-18T16:18:06Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:18:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:19:17Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-18T16:20:35Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T16:21:27Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:29:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T16:31:45Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T16:34:47Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:35:12Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:36:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:36:20Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:39:55Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-18T16:40:07Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T16:42:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:45:27Z Guest48416 is now known as xristos 2017-07-18T16:45:33Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2017-07-18T16:45:33Z xristos joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:45:42Z Posterdati: hi 2017-07-18T16:46:12Z Posterdati: how it is possible to intercept a resolver-no-name-error with handler-case? 2017-07-18T16:46:25Z Posterdati: please help! Thanks 2017-07-18T16:47:28Z Xach: Posterdati: "interecept" in what way? 2017-07-18T16:47:53Z Posterdati: I need to send a log when this error occurs 2017-07-18T16:48:08Z Xach: Posterdati: it is no different from handling any other error in handler-case. 2017-07-18T16:48:51Z Posterdati: I used (iolib/sockets:resolver-no-name-error () ...) 2017-07-18T16:49:24Z koenig joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:49:25Z Posterdati: as handler-case error form, but did not work I falled in the debugger 2017-07-18T16:49:47Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-18T16:49:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T16:50:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T16:50:45Z Posterdati: Host or service not found: "INTELNUC" 2017-07-18T16:50:45Z Posterdati: [Condition of type IOLIB/SOCKETS:RESOLVER-NO-NAME-ERROR] 2017-07-18T16:51:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:54:31Z pjb: I would intercept conditions with handler-bind, not handler-case. 2017-07-18T16:56:50Z Posterdati: inside the with-open-sockets? 2017-07-18T16:56:55Z Posterdati: inside the with-open-socket? 2017-07-18T16:57:25Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-18T16:58:01Z Xach: Posterdati: what did you do in the body of the handler-case? 2017-07-18T16:58:54Z Posterdati: I used with-open-socket for an active socket connection 2017-07-18T16:59:25Z Posterdati: (handler-case (with-open-socket (...) ...) (error1 ...) (error ...2) ...) 2017-07-18T17:00:14Z Posterdati: resolver-no-error is the only error for which handler-case won't work 2017-07-18T17:00:24Z Posterdati: resolver-no-name-error 2017-07-18T17:01:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:01:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T17:01:47Z SpurdoSparde is now known as AngerSparde 2017-07-18T17:02:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:03:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:06:20Z Posterdati: if I place only resolver-no-name-error it works 2017-07-18T17:11:52Z knusbaum: We probably need a full test-case to help. 2017-07-18T17:14:28Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351174 2017-07-18T17:14:33Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:14:57Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:15:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T17:15:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:16:12Z pjb: Posterdati: add (error (err) (format t "~A~%~:*~S~%" err) (error err)) ad the end of the handler-case and see what is printed. 2017-07-18T17:17:53Z Posterdati: the error is triggered 2017-07-18T17:18:06Z Posterdati: seems that no error case is evaluated 2017-07-18T17:18:35Z pjb: Posterdati: use: (error (err) (format t "~S~%" (class-of err)) (error err)) 2017-07-18T17:18:52Z pjb: Posterdati: or even: (error (err) (format t "~S~%" (class-name (class-of err))) (error err)) 2017-07-18T17:19:44Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:20:14Z Posterdati: pjb: does not work, I fallen in the debugger with resolver-no-name-error 2017-07-18T17:20:45Z pjb: Posterdati: add (error (err) (format t "~A~%~:*~S~%" err) (error err)) ad the end of the handler-case and see what is printed. 2017-07-18T17:21:07Z pjb: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 2017-07-18T17:21:31Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:22:03Z Posterdati: same 2017-07-18T17:22:15Z pjb: What the fuck is PRINTE? 2017-07-18T17:22:57Z Posterdati: ? 2017-07-18T17:24:14Z Posterdati: :( 2017-07-18T17:26:43Z Posterdati: odd 2017-07-18T17:27:03Z Posterdati: the error is intercepted with an handler case inside the with-open-socket 2017-07-18T17:27:31Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:28:08Z pjb: Notice that your paste is not a full (self-sufficient) test-case. It lacks calls to quickload etc. 2017-07-18T17:28:43Z Posterdati: Host or service not found: "INTELNUC" 2017-07-18T17:28:43Z Posterdati: # 2017-07-18T17:28:56Z Posterdati: this is what it is printed 2017-07-18T17:29:15Z pjb: That's good. It means that there's no error on the condition name. 2017-07-18T17:29:22Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:30:08Z pjb: Now, indeed, if it was handled inside the with-open-socket, you could get it with an ouside handler-case. But since you got it, it's not. 2017-07-18T17:30:45Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:32:07Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:32:21Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-18T17:33:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:35:16Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-18T17:35:41Z Posterdati: ok it does not work when I added multiple cases 2017-07-18T17:35:45Z Posterdati: nice... 2017-07-18T17:36:11Z knusbaum: Posterdati: In your handler, you have: (iolib/sockets:lookup-hostname host) 2017-07-18T17:36:54Z Posterdati: yes 2017-07-18T17:37:14Z Posterdati: ok 2017-07-18T17:37:24Z Posterdati: is it inside another form? 2017-07-18T17:37:31Z knusbaum: I would wager a guess that that function is what's throwing the error. 2017-07-18T17:37:46Z knusbaum: Since the error is about failing to resolve a name. 2017-07-18T17:39:06Z knusbaum: You have one call on line 8 inside with-open-socket, and another on line 33 inside the error handler. 2017-07-18T17:39:42Z knusbaum: Line 37 also. 2017-07-18T17:40:13Z Posterdati: yes 2017-07-18T17:40:38Z Posterdati: I placed the lookup-host in a let form 2017-07-18T17:40:56Z Posterdati: and used a variable in place of the other calls.. 2017-07-18T17:41:02Z Posterdati: let's see what happen 2017-07-18T17:42:00Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T17:42:06Z Posterdati: knusbaum: sure it is the first lookup-hostname function to throw, since there's no "INTELNUC" yet 2017-07-18T17:42:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:43:36Z knusbaum: So when you call that function in the error handlers, it throws from there. 2017-07-18T17:45:53Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:46:03Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:47:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:48:12Z phoe: Can I pull external .so files into a standalone Lisp executable? 2017-07-18T17:48:19Z phoe: ...on Win32? 2017-07-18T17:48:29Z phoe: (at which point it will be .dll files) 2017-07-18T17:49:14Z Bike: what does pulling a shared object "into" an executable mean 2017-07-18T17:49:23Z Bike: do you want to like... statically link it 2017-07-18T17:49:34Z phoe: I want to have a single .exe file instead of an .exe and a .dll file. 2017-07-18T17:49:40Z phoe: I think it's called static linking, yes. 2017-07-18T17:49:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:50:02Z Bike: i'm pretty sure you can't do that. 2017-07-18T17:50:13Z pjb: (defparameter *my-so* (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents "/usr/lib/libm.dylib")) 2017-07-18T17:50:18Z pjb: there, done. 2017-07-18T17:50:26Z phoe slow claps 2017-07-18T17:50:35Z Bike: does it just amuse you to give completely worthless answers or what 2017-07-18T17:50:38Z phoe: Bike: what did Fare present at the last ECL? 2017-07-18T17:50:50Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:51:07Z phoe: he pulled a ton of dependencies into a Lisp image and created a static binary that played music 2017-07-18T17:51:20Z phoe: that depended only on, like, basic Linux shared objects 2017-07-18T17:52:28Z phoe: it was a lightning talk - there's no recording of it, sadly 2017-07-18T17:52:39Z tefter joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:52:42Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:53:05Z Bike: fare's lightning talk was that super abstract thing about, uh, something. 2017-07-18T17:53:53Z Bike: there is a slide in his actual talk titled "application delivery with static c libraries" 2017-07-18T17:54:05Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T17:54:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:54:36Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T17:55:00Z rumbler31: phoe. you're using the term static linking for what you're talking about and I think it's confusing people 2017-07-18T17:55:07Z rumbler31: I want what you want actually 2017-07-18T17:55:11Z m00natic` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T17:55:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T17:57:57Z phoe: Bike: yes - that's exactly what I want, application delivery with static c libraries. 2017-07-18T17:58:25Z phoe: minion: memo for Fare: Hey, do you have more information on this slide of yours from ELS, static lin... oh. minion is dead. well, fine. 2017-07-18T17:58:27Z rumbler31: but you also want to ship shared objects as well right? 2017-07-18T17:58:50Z phoe: I don't want a shared object as a separate file - I want a single monolithic Lisp image. 2017-07-18T17:58:56Z rumbler31: yes 2017-07-18T17:59:09Z phoe: and I don't think that he converted all the Linux .so files into static objects in order to link them with the Lisp binary. 2017-07-18T17:59:15Z pjb: At run-time you just do (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents "/tmp/libm.dylib") *my-so*) and then you can open that library. 2017-07-18T17:59:22Z rumbler31: ^ 2017-07-18T17:59:35Z phoe: hm. 2017-07-18T17:59:55Z rumbler31: the dumb simple way is to barf the so back out to tmp and use a cffi load library call 2017-07-18T18:00:22Z rumbler31: of course its on you to make sure that any shared objects that *they* require are either available at the destination or supplied by you and loaded in the correct order 2017-07-18T18:01:48Z knusbaum: What kind of packaging is this? When I save my lisp image, the resulting executable doesn't link to any shared objects. 2017-07-18T18:01:55Z rumbler31: bespoke 2017-07-18T18:04:05Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:04:20Z rumbler31: simply, imagine what it would take to feed cffi load library. it needs a library name or else an explicit path to a library 2017-07-18T18:04:58Z rumbler31: how can you consume a binary file and store it in your image using native lisp calls. pjb has an answer. 2017-07-18T18:05:14Z rumbler31: then barf that back out and supply the newly barfed lib to a call to cffi load-library 2017-07-18T18:06:01Z rumbler31: pitfalls would be that the system dlopen calls might try to find other shared libraries that you forgot to ship, or that need to be loaded in the correct order 2017-07-18T18:06:43Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-18T18:06:50Z phoe: that's what deployment testing is for. 2017-07-18T18:07:52Z phoe: ...I'm in a very weird mood. I feel like livecoding some Lisp on Twitch. 2017-07-18T18:08:07Z rumbler31: alternatively... an dlopen autoresolver 2017-07-18T18:08:11Z pjb: This is the implementation independent way. Then you can use implementation specific features to statically link static libraries with your executable save image. But on modern unix systems, a lot of libraries just cannot be delivered statically, and have to be dynamically linked. 2017-07-18T18:08:27Z rumbler31: you can instantly know on your deployment machine what libraries are required and go have them be autoingested in the correct order 2017-07-18T18:11:03Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-07-18T18:11:22Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-18T18:15:35Z nosefouratyou quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T18:16:01Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T18:17:05Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:17:46Z jibanes joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:18:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:19:32Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-18T18:21:52Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T18:23:15Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:24:47Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T18:25:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:28:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T18:31:43Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T18:32:42Z diegs_ left #lisp 2017-07-18T18:39:10Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T18:45:53Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:45:59Z efm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T18:47:35Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:47:58Z efm joined #lisp 2017-07-18T18:49:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T18:53:37Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:00:27Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T19:02:34Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-18T19:05:31Z bgg_ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:08:31Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T19:12:39Z bgg_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T19:14:35Z Guest35075 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:20:17Z Guest35075 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T19:32:17Z __paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:33:58Z efm joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:34:59Z callstack01 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:35:22Z callstack01: sup everyone 2017-07-18T19:35:28Z AngerSparde is now known as AngrySpurdo 2017-07-18T19:35:35Z beach: Hello callstack01. 2017-07-18T19:35:36Z knusbaum: o/ 2017-07-18T19:36:01Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-18T19:36:11Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T19:36:19Z callstack01: this is thetabit, forgot to logout at work >,< 2017-07-18T19:36:42Z beach: It happens. 2017-07-18T19:36:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:39:10Z phoe is streaming. Which is surprisingly nice. 2017-07-18T19:39:30Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:40:42Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:40:49Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-18T19:44:46Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T19:46:47Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-18T19:47:32Z clintm: Where? 2017-07-18T19:48:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-18T19:51:48Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T19:52:26Z clintm: Oh, twitch. Missed that message somehow. 2017-07-18T19:53:13Z phoe: clintm: https://picarto.tv/phoelisp 2017-07-18T19:53:17Z phoe: Actually picarto instead of twitch. 2017-07-18T19:53:19Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-18T19:53:37Z clintm: picarto... interesting. Never heard of it. 2017-07-18T19:55:05Z clintm: dooood what is making that tab-complete menu? 2017-07-18T19:55:05Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T19:55:21Z clintm: oh, I'll type to you on the stream page. :P 2017-07-18T19:58:47Z Xach: heh 2017-07-18T19:59:45Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:04:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T20:10:56Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T20:12:29Z caffe: o/ 2017-07-18T20:14:59Z slark: o/ 2017-07-18T20:15:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:16:00Z slark: caffe: your nick is the french translation for coffee right ? 2017-07-18T20:16:01Z phoe: o/ 2017-07-18T20:16:58Z slark: starting my journey in the deep realm of macro in lisp 2017-07-18T20:23:10Z dTal: someday we'll invent something better than macros 2017-07-18T20:23:54Z slark: macro are not "so" good ? 2017-07-18T20:24:40Z dTal: macros are to metasyntax as goto is to programming 2017-07-18T20:25:01Z slark: really ? 2017-07-18T20:25:11Z slark: well goto is awfull lol 2017-07-18T20:25:35Z dTal: in the sense that they're both terribly useful when you've nothing else 2017-07-18T20:26:20Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:26:38Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:26:39Z Bike: and everything else is built on it? 2017-07-18T20:27:31Z newcup joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:27:55Z dTal: Sure, metaphorically speaking - whatever form the "more structured" version of metaprogramming takes, it'll probably be layered on some kind of macro system 2017-07-18T20:28:39Z slark: dTal: do you use macro ? 2017-07-18T20:28:54Z slark: dTal: or i would say, you try to avoid it as much as possible ? 2017-07-18T20:29:26Z slark: actually as a beginner macro looks like magic and i want to use them as much as i can cause it seems "cool" 2017-07-18T20:30:09Z Bike: in mythology, that attitude tends to get apprentices turned into newts 2017-07-18T20:31:38Z slark: Bike: what do you mean ? 2017-07-18T20:31:55Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:32:05Z Bike: that you shouldn't use them as much as possible, basically 2017-07-18T20:32:40Z slark: ok 2017-07-18T20:34:20Z phoe: only use macros where functions and CLOS won't do 2017-07-18T20:34:37Z phoe: and CLOS is surprisingly damn versatile 2017-07-18T20:35:24Z slark: phoe: sweet didnt do much of clos yet.. but i am of with structure (destruct) 2017-07-18T20:35:48Z slark: i did a lot of OOP in C++ and i am curious to see the OOP way of lisp 2017-07-18T20:36:41Z phoe: slark: grab Practical Common Lisp the book and learn you some CLOS. 2017-07-18T20:36:50Z phoe: structures are pretty primitive, compared to it. 2017-07-18T20:37:21Z slark: phoe: thx i am reading it indeed 2017-07-18T20:37:31Z slark: phoe: chap 9 actually 2017-07-18T20:38:31Z slark: i have just finished COMMON LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 2017-07-18T20:39:05Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T20:39:21Z slark: and i have read some chapter of paul graham ansi common lisp 2017-07-18T20:39:26Z antoszka: slark: Didn't you find the book a little *slow*? 2017-07-18T20:39:38Z antoszka: slark: PCL is a much more concrete introduction to CL. 2017-07-18T20:39:52Z slark: antoszka: well it is really for people who want to learn programming with lisp as a vector 2017-07-18T20:40:01Z antoszka: slark: Gentle Intro? 2017-07-18T20:40:10Z slark: antoszka: yeah 2017-07-18T20:40:12Z sukaeto: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation is perfectly good as a programming 101 book 2017-07-18T20:40:27Z antoszka: not sure. 2017-07-18T20:40:36Z slark: well it was the most basic thing i found abut lisp 2017-07-18T20:41:43Z sukaeto: (granted, there are better ones out there - but I don't know of others for CL) 2017-07-18T20:42:06Z slark: i have the norvig book about lisp and AI 2017-07-18T20:42:15Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:42:59Z slark: what do you think about the land of lisp book ? 2017-07-18T20:44:15Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:44:52Z Baggers: slark: loved it! 2017-07-18T20:45:21Z Baggers: the fact he used clisp is a bit annoying but the actual content was great 2017-07-18T20:46:02Z antoszka: slark: The Norvig book is actually the best programming *and* CL book ever in my opinion :) 2017-07-18T20:46:14Z slark: antoszka: ouch!! 2017-07-18T20:46:14Z antoszka: slark: Very different to Gentle Intro. 2017-07-18T20:46:36Z slark: antoszka: i read it until the grammar syntax analyzer et wrote i think 2017-07-18T20:46:40Z antoszka: slark: It's a very outdated AI book, but treat AI as a pretext. 2017-07-18T20:46:42Z slark: and get lost quickly 2017-07-18T20:46:51Z antoszka: For beautiful code ;) 2017-07-18T20:46:54Z antoszka: And good CL. 2017-07-18T20:47:53Z slark: well trying to learn lisp this summer with all this book 2017-07-18T20:48:02Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:49:45Z slark: do you use lispworks ? 2017-07-18T20:50:55Z slark: was trying to find lib for GUI app, and found that lispworks made them easy to use on all OS 2017-07-18T20:52:30Z slark: i read that QT made bindings for lisp should be the best option 2017-07-18T20:52:43Z slark: but i am not a QT fan even when i use C/C++ or python 2017-07-18T20:53:03Z fiveop joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:55:23Z jeremiah__ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T20:56:32Z antoszka: slark: Hard to quantify, but I think most people here will use open-source implementations (sbcl and clozurecl being probably the two most popular) with open source UI libraries. 2017-07-18T20:56:44Z fiveop: I have a problem that I can best describe by an example (http://paste.lisp.org/display/351183) and the question "How can I conditionally splice a comma form into a backquoted list?" 2017-07-18T20:57:35Z antoszka: slark: Open source GUI libraries aren't the strongest side of CL these days, unfortunately, but most progress seems to be going on the McCLIM refresh and QT5 fronts (the latter in the form of Shinmera's work). 2017-07-18T20:57:40Z fiveop: The example is the condensed form of my real problem. 2017-07-18T20:57:49Z antoszka: Channel, correct me if I'm bullshitting. 2017-07-18T20:57:55Z Bike: the double backquote is kind of scary, but you can do it with ,@ 2017-07-18T20:57:58Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T20:58:02Z fiveop: Bike: sure? 2017-07-18T20:58:03Z Bike: like ,@(when condition (list form)) 2017-07-18T20:58:04Z fiveop: I tried 2017-07-18T20:58:19Z fiveop: I'll try again :) 2017-07-18T20:58:56Z Bike: `(a ,@(when t `((+ b c))) d) => (a (+ b c) d), `(a ,@(when nil `((+ b c))) d) => `(a d) 2017-07-18T20:59:16Z fiveop: that's easy 2017-07-18T20:59:23Z fiveop: but note that the added part has a comma in front of it 2017-07-18T20:59:26Z Bike: is that not what you want? 2017-07-18T21:00:07Z Bike: double backquote kind of shuts my brain down, but the same principle shouldn't stop working 2017-07-18T21:00:59Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:01:07Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:02:54Z fiveop: `(+ 1 ,,@(when b '(var)))))))))) seems to do it instead of the ,(if ...) expression 2017-07-18T21:03:01Z fiveop: but I could swear I tried that before 2017-07-18T21:05:40Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:06:29Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:09:06Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:10:12Z fiveop: And the result http://paste.lisp.org/display/351184 2017-07-18T21:10:28Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:11:30Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:13:13Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-18T21:14:07Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:17:23Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:20:25Z dean joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:20:30Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:22:11Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:24:04Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-18T21:28:00Z fiveop quit 2017-07-18T21:29:02Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:32:41Z dean left #lisp 2017-07-18T21:35:02Z iousiq joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:35:05Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:35:35Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:40:38Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:42:54Z iousiq left #lisp 2017-07-18T21:44:27Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T21:44:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:44:58Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:46:37Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:47:01Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:49:30Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T21:51:56Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:52:05Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:52:06Z Posterdati: knusbaum: it worked! Thanks! 2017-07-18T21:52:23Z Posterdati: pjb: Thank to you too! (as ever) 2017-07-18T21:54:24Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-18T21:56:37Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T21:56:39Z knusbaum: np. :) 2017-07-18T21:59:38Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:00:02Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-18T22:00:53Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T22:01:41Z ptdel joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:01:46Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:02:13Z nicdev` is now known as nicdev 2017-07-18T22:06:00Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:06:19Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T22:06:25Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T22:07:24Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T22:08:31Z ptdel: hello I am very new to lisp, I have a question that is probably really silly. If I want to load multiple libraries at runtime, should I be making an .asd file that loads all of my libs or just use quicklisp? 2017-07-18T22:08:55Z pjb`: ptdel: It's probably better to define your asd. 2017-07-18T22:09:04Z ptdel: when I want to load lots of libs I am doing (mapcar #'ql:quickload :lib1 :lib2 :lib3) I'm guessing this is a jank way 2017-07-18T22:09:12Z efm joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:09:15Z pjb`: But you could as well write a script such as ^ 2017-07-18T22:09:39Z ptdel: asdf would be somewhat akin to a setup.pu in python's package structure I take it? 2017-07-18T22:09:46Z ptdel: setup.py* 2017-07-18T22:10:01Z phoe: ptdel: You should use ASDF for this. 2017-07-18T22:10:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:10:56Z ptdel: ah ok, correct me if I am off base, I would use the defsystem form for this correct? with each of my libs being in the :depends-on or :component keywords? 2017-07-18T22:11:39Z ptdel: ah :components are my files :depends-on are libraries, I see now 2017-07-18T22:12:04Z ptdel: thank you for your help phoe and pjb` 2017-07-18T22:12:13Z knusbaum quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T22:13:00Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-07-18T22:13:07Z phoe: I have pushed the first seemingly working version of CL-LZMA on github, https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/blob/master/cl-lzma.lisp 2017-07-18T22:13:09Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351188 2017-07-18T22:15:00Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:17:48Z sebboh` quit (Changing host) 2017-07-18T22:17:48Z sebboh` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:17:55Z sebboh` is now known as sebboh 2017-07-18T22:18:30Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T22:19:18Z phoe: Can any of you guys on linux64 pull this and check if it builds and if the tests pass? 2017-07-18T22:21:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T22:24:53Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T22:24:58Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:27:35Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2017-07-18T22:29:30Z phoe: okay - good night 2017-07-18T22:30:01Z azzamsa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-18T22:30:30Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-18T22:35:00Z ptdel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-18T22:41:38Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-18T22:43:41Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:47:19Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T22:48:13Z server001 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-18T22:51:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T22:55:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-18T22:57:38Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:01:13Z efm joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:08:43Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-18T23:12:17Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:12:53Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-18T23:15:22Z warweasle1 joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:20:53Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:31:18Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:31:36Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-18T23:34:50Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:36:29Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:39:10Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:40:28Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T23:41:46Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:42:33Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-18T23:44:41Z efm__ joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:44:53Z Guest31455 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-18T23:45:53Z efm__ is now known as efm 2017-07-18T23:48:44Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T23:50:13Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:52:55Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-18T23:54:38Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-18T23:54:40Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:02:55Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T00:08:46Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T00:12:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:20:27Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:24:28Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T00:24:48Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T00:29:46Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T00:30:24Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:30:50Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:34:47Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T00:34:52Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T00:39:11Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:43:52Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T00:44:18Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:48:05Z anon_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:48:48Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:53:30Z FakePedro1 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T00:55:36Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T00:55:36Z FakePedro1 is now known as FakePedro 2017-07-19T01:01:30Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T01:03:06Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-19T01:04:16Z AngrySpurdo is now known as Spurdo 2017-07-19T01:07:20Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-19T01:11:12Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T01:12:21Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T01:12:30Z DeadTrickster__ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T01:16:05Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T01:16:30Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T01:20:15Z warweasle1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-19T01:29:35Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T01:29:40Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T01:30:51Z burncode joined #lisp 2017-07-19T01:31:59Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-07-19T01:35:03Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-19T01:36:53Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2017-07-19T01:39:16Z froggey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T01:40:58Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T01:41:54Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T01:51:30Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-19T01:51:35Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T01:57:41Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T02:01:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:03:10Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:03:11Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-19T02:16:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T02:17:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:21:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T02:23:01Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:25:10Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T02:29:03Z burncode: exit 2017-07-19T02:32:17Z caffe: no u 2017-07-19T02:33:02Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T02:34:30Z libreman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T02:34:43Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:36:49Z fkuc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T02:39:56Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T02:41:16Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T02:42:27Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:42:44Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-19T02:43:01Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:44:55Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T02:47:35Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-07-19T02:47:42Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:50:31Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:50:35Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:53:15Z jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T02:53:32Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:55:33Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-19T02:57:17Z marvin3 left #lisp 2017-07-19T02:58:18Z burncode left #lisp 2017-07-19T03:02:29Z efm__ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:12:07Z drmeister: mop slot-definition 2017-07-19T03:12:24Z drmeister never appreciates the things that he has until they go away 2017-07-19T03:13:31Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:14:51Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T03:16:20Z efm__ is now known as efm 2017-07-19T03:17:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:19:22Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:19:33Z phinxy quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T03:19:33Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:20:02Z efm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T03:20:53Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-19T03:21:41Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:22:21Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T03:22:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-19T03:22:46Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:22:58Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:26:22Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T03:27:18Z efm joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:28:34Z efm quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T03:31:00Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:31:33Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:34:24Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T03:35:49Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T03:35:58Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:38:39Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-19T03:38:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T03:39:51Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:47:55Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-19T03:49:25Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T03:52:09Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-19T03:53:04Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T03:56:19Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T03:56:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:00:58Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:02:27Z kjak_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-19T04:04:37Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:06:10Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:07:43Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:09:03Z poorbean quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:10:01Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:10:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:12:03Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:13:52Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:18:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:19:05Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T04:23:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:25:03Z fUD joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:25:55Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T04:31:10Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:32:09Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T04:33:32Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:41:28Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:45:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:45:57Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-19T04:48:24Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:50:28Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:51:01Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:51:25Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:53:35Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:53:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T04:54:34Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T04:57:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:05:52Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:08:01Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:08:28Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-19T05:08:36Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:09:00Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-19T05:09:19Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:09:47Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:11:13Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:16:08Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:19:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:20:52Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:22:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:22:52Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:24:54Z libreman joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:29:13Z Tristam joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:32:28Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:42:05Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-07-19T05:48:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:53:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:56:05Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T05:56:14Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:57:28Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T05:59:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:06:08Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:06:20Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-19T06:16:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:16:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T06:21:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:24:09Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:24:31Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:25:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:26:58Z clintm: mornin' beach! 2017-07-19T06:28:34Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:28:43Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:34:46Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-19T06:35:05Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T06:35:49Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:36:27Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:37:39Z closkar: hey. Are there any CL libraries that incorporate well with the modern/popular javascript plotting libraries? Fx. D3.js, plot.ly or three.js? 2017-07-19T06:38:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:38:21Z closkar: Currently I'm plotting with plot.ly through parenscript, but frankly it is a bit of a pain (for me anyways). 2017-07-19T06:38:43Z clintm: closkar: A long, long time ago, I used parenscript to make a game with three.js. 2017-07-19T06:38:52Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:39:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: is the specbot down? 2017-07-19T06:39:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 1.1.1.1 2017-07-19T06:39:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 12.1 2017-07-19T06:40:00Z clintm: parenscript + judicious use of (defpsmacro ...) can be really nice. 2017-07-19T06:40:30Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:40:50Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:41:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, a good thing to do is to right a bit of parenscript to see what the patterns are and then use defpsmacro to clean the structure up 2017-07-19T06:41:10Z closkar: clintm: would you say that is the way to go? defpsmacro and hack at it? 2017-07-19T06:41:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Iterating to a DSL 2017-07-19T06:41:45Z closkar: Ok. So you seems to agree that it can be done that way. Which is a good start. 2017-07-19T06:41:46Z clintm: hrm, looks like I was using a package called 'voxel'. 2017-07-19T06:42:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: closkar: there isn't much choice here. People have written little extensions here and there to integrate parenscript with various libraries but, in general, you have to do most of the heavy-lifting with parenscript 2017-07-19T06:42:31Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:42:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be nice, though, to have something that could complete with clojurescript here... 2017-07-19T06:43:28Z closkar: Hm. It would be cool if someone/many actually hacked together a high quality lib for one of the JS solutions out there. 2017-07-19T06:43:56Z clintm: I had a figwheel proof of concept (mostly) working a while back. Not sure why I quit working on it. 2017-07-19T06:44:31Z closkar: Not that I would mind spending the time writing a DSL, but sometimes getting-things-done takes precedence in the short term. 2017-07-19T06:44:56Z clintm: Sounds like there's actually interest in it though. I think my problem is that I work in such isolation, I just assume no one needs or wants it. 2017-07-19T06:46:01Z clintm: To be clear, I had all of the reloading working but did not have any integration with the goog closure compiler. 2017-07-19T06:47:31Z clintm: so, all the easy parts :P 2017-07-19T06:47:49Z closkar: All I can say for my part is that the lack of high quality plotting options kept me stuck in python for several years (still is in some ways). And even python hooks onto the JS libraries when working with the web. 2017-07-19T06:48:10Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T06:49:27Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-19T06:50:24Z closkar: clintm: I can't say anything for the general demand, but I know that currently I am building a slow, bug-ridden, informatlly specified implementation of some percentage of plot.ly in cl. 2017-07-19T06:51:26Z closkar: clintm: never heard of figwheel before; that looks cool. 2017-07-19T06:51:48Z clintm: Heh. You're definitely the best person for that job between the two of us. 2017-07-19T06:53:07Z clintm: Yea, having that in CL for js and web development would be pretty nice. 2017-07-19T06:55:40Z closkar: i'll afk a bit, but if anyone has more or different opinions on the matter I am all ears. 2017-07-19T06:55:42Z clintm: I also wanted it to be able to easy run over an ssh tunnel, instead of requiring that you use it on localhost. 2017-07-19T07:01:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:02:49Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:04:00Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:04:04Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:05:21Z Intensity joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:05:40Z jackc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:08:08Z fouric quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:08:41Z fouric joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:10:56Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:11:50Z loke: clintm: I would kill to have that 2017-07-19T07:12:34Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:16:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:19:22Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:22:30Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:26:22Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:26:35Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:26:46Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:27:17Z phoe: clintm: you mean that I make a SSH tunnel that binds localhost:4005 to remote's localhost:4005? 2017-07-19T07:27:25Z phoe: that's what I do currently 2017-07-19T07:29:28Z clintm: phoe: Well, speaking of figwheel specifically, you'd have the tunnel for swank, but you'd also need another one for your image to talk to the browser. 2017-07-19T07:29:37Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:29:41Z phoe: clintm: ooh. 2017-07-19T07:29:54Z phoe: one would need to experiment with HTTPS or WebSockets perhaps to achieve that. 2017-07-19T07:30:40Z clintm: Wait, that's done over websockets. It's been a year and a half since i worked on this. Apparently my memory of it is a little more cloudy than I thought. 2017-07-19T07:31:17Z clintm: I'll dredge up the code I had later tonight after I finish the project that pays me. hehe. 2017-07-19T07:31:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have to say, it might not be too hard to beat the Clojurescript experience 2017-07-19T07:31:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least when it comes to getting started on a project 2017-07-19T07:32:08Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:32:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I spent a couple hours today trying to figure out how to get my development environment setup again before giving up 2017-07-19T07:33:57Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T07:38:22Z muyinliu: can anyone tell me why simple code wrap by defun cost 10x CPU time? demo here: http://pasteall.org/476608/lisp 2017-07-19T07:39:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:39:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a simple way to implement something like the touch command in common lisp? 2017-07-19T07:39:59Z clintm: fiddlerwoaroof: if you want to try it all out on the clojure side, there's a video series called parens of the dead. It assumes experience with emacs, but I thought it was pretty well done. 2017-07-19T07:40:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. create a file if it doesn't exist 2017-07-19T07:40:08Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: Garnet includes gestures. 2017-07-19T07:40:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: clintm: I've used clojurescript quite a bit 2017-07-19T07:40:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: the unix command touch 2017-07-19T07:40:36Z pjb: Oh. 2017-07-19T07:40:36Z clintm: ah, ok 2017-07-19T07:40:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have something like (close (open "foo" :direction :output)) 2017-07-19T07:40:57Z pjb: That's what I'd do. 2017-07-19T07:40:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: but that doesn't implement the full thing 2017-07-19T07:41:03Z pjb: Indeed. 2017-07-19T07:41:17Z pjb: Use FFI to call the unix function. 2017-07-19T07:41:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess that's best. 2017-07-19T07:43:29Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: (with-open-file (s "/tmp/goop.lisp" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create)) 2017-07-19T07:43:43Z phoe: isn't that equivalent to touching a new file? 2017-07-19T07:43:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does that update the times? 2017-07-19T07:43:53Z phoe: oh, you need to update the times. 2017-07-19T07:44:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, touch is for updating a files timestamps and/or creating a file 2017-07-19T07:44:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: The W-O-F snippet handles creating a file, but it doesn't actually have feature parity with the coreutil 2017-07-19T07:44:58Z clintm: I think you'd have to write to it to update the time. You could also 'touch' it programatically by changing its permissions. 2017-07-19T07:45:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the easiest way is FFIing the utime call 2017-07-19T07:45:46Z phoe: it does not update the times. 2017-07-19T07:45:48Z pjb: Would a call to write(fd,0,0) be enough to update the time? 2017-07-19T07:45:51Z clintm: change a trivial permission and then change it back. 2017-07-19T07:46:09Z beach: muyinliu: Several reasons... 2017-07-19T07:46:17Z clintm: changing the perms doesn't? huh... ok, I could have sworn it did. 2017-07-19T07:46:22Z beach: muyinliu: For one thing, a function call is more expensive than an addition. 2017-07-19T07:46:26Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-19T07:47:04Z beach: muyinliu: Second, if you have a decent compiler, it will notice that the first expression you submitted does nothing, so it can remove the entire calculation. 2017-07-19T07:47:37Z beach: muyinliu: Benchmarking is hard stuff, because you need to know enough about compiler design to know what a good compiler is capable of. 2017-07-19T07:48:10Z muyinliu: beach: Thanks. The demo runs on SBCL's REPL. 2017-07-19T07:48:38Z beach: muyinliu: And SBCL has a very good compiler in terms of optimizations and performance of generated code. 2017-07-19T07:49:37Z beach: muyinliu: If you have an application where the overhead of calling a function is unacceptable (which is unlikely), then you can often declare the function INLINE. 2017-07-19T07:50:15Z beach: muyinliu: Perhaps you can tell us what prompted you to create this benchmark. 2017-07-19T07:50:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone else here use slime-company? 2017-07-19T07:54:12Z beach: muyinliu: Even if SBCL does not remove the entire calculation in the first case, it will recognize that you have an addition of two constant numbers, so it will perform this addition at compile time, effectively generating a constant. A function call is definitely much more expensive than computing the value of a constant, because in the latter case, the constant is just returned. 2017-07-19T07:54:39Z beach: muyinliu: So you see why it is important to understand what the compiler is capable of if you are going to make benchmarks like this. 2017-07-19T07:55:47Z muyinliu: beach: I create a lib named cl-datetime, it call C function getdayoftime 2017-07-19T07:57:32Z muyinliu: beanch: after wrap the C call with defcfun to create my get-universal-time, it's much more slow than SBCL's get-universal-time. 2017-07-19T07:59:11Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T07:59:33Z muyinliu: beach: the only diff is that SBCL use syscall directly and my version call with a defcfun 2017-07-19T08:00:05Z phoe: muyinliu: why do you need to resort to using a syscall? 2017-07-19T08:00:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:00:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T08:00:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:00:15Z beach: muyinliu: I think the benchmark you showed us have very little in common with the real thing you are trying to measure. 2017-07-19T08:00:28Z beach: s/have/has/ 2017-07-19T08:01:13Z phoe: muyinliu: about the Lisp paste that you did: the overhead of calling a function 2017-07-19T08:01:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T08:01:22Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:01:30Z beach: phoe: I already said that. 2017-07-19T08:01:41Z phoe: beach: oh - okay. 2017-07-19T08:01:44Z beach: ... plus a few more things. 2017-07-19T08:01:50Z phoe: I haven't read this far yet. 2017-07-19T08:02:00Z phoe scrolls 2017-07-19T08:02:11Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T08:03:35Z beach: muyinliu: I know very little about FFI stuff, but my guess would be that there is a lot of time spent in converting data between the way SBCL represents things an d the way C represents things. 2017-07-19T08:03:47Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-19T08:03:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:03:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T08:03:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:04:07Z phoe: the FFI overhead is considerable. 2017-07-19T08:05:12Z beach: muyinliu: If so, the benchmark you submitted has absolutely nothing to do with your original problem. 2017-07-19T08:05:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T08:05:37Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:05:57Z muyinliu: beach: I don't think it's about CFFI. I compare same code between Common Lisp and Clojure, Clojure's function version is only take 2 times of the CPU time(Common Lisp's function version take 10 times of the CPU time). 2017-07-19T08:07:16Z beach: muyinliu: Does Clojure use CFFI? 2017-07-19T08:07:21Z beach is very surprised. 2017-07-19T08:08:00Z muyinliu: beach: no, I only test the demo. 2017-07-19T08:08:20Z phoe: beach: technically speaking, Java has its Java Native Interface, and Clojure is capable of leveraging that. 2017-07-19T08:08:56Z beach: muyinliu: So if Clojure is not using CFFI but SBCL is, what made you conclude that this additional time is NOT due to CFFI? 2017-07-19T08:09:10Z beach: ... or SBCL FFI for that matter. 2017-07-19T08:13:41Z muyinliu: beach: Sorry for the mislead. It's not about CFFI. 2017-07-19T08:14:07Z muyinliu: beach: I just want to know why Common Lisp's function cost so much. 2017-07-19T08:14:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:14:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: They don't necessarily 2017-07-19T08:14:25Z beach: muyinliu: They don't. 2017-07-19T08:14:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: It comes down to details of the compiler as beach mentioned earlier 2017-07-19T08:14:48Z beach: muyinliu: For one thing, the cost of a function depends on the implementation, not on the language. 2017-07-19T08:15:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T08:15:08Z muyinliu: beach: ok 2017-07-19T08:15:34Z beach: muyinliu: Second, it depends on the safety of the code. In safe code, many things are checked. If you compare to something else, you have to make sure that the same work is done. 2017-07-19T08:15:43Z muyinliu: beach: now I'm try to run the same demo on other Common Lisp implements. 2017-07-19T08:16:17Z beach: muyinliu: Third, your problem was with FFI, but then you benchmarked an ordinary Common Lisp function call. 2017-07-19T08:18:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:18:32Z beach: muyinliu: Fourth, you executed the call (or so we think) one hundred million times. That means the call took 4ns or so. That is not very much. 2017-07-19T08:19:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:21:52Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:22:06Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:25:45Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:30:07Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T08:30:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T08:30:15Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:32:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:33:03Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-19T08:33:54Z anticrisis quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-19T08:52:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T08:54:30Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T08:58:05Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:05:00Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:05:56Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:06:49Z otwieracz: I've got some function running in thread - is there any way to interrupt it, so I'll have debugger in it's context? 2017-07-19T09:07:45Z Ukari quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T09:07:55Z phoe: otwieracz: interrupt it with a (invoke-debugger) wrapped in a restart? 2017-07-19T09:08:14Z phoe: (invoke-debugger) to enter the debugger, restart to be able to exit it 2017-07-19T09:13:17Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:17:55Z _death: `C-c C-x t' to get a slime-threads buffer, move to the thread and type `d' to debug 2017-07-19T09:19:20Z otwieracz: Unfortunately, after „d” nothing is happening. 2017-07-19T09:19:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:19:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T09:19:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:20:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:22:09Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:22:34Z _death: could try bt:interrupt-thread with #'break 2017-07-19T09:23:08Z otwieracz: nothing. 2017-07-19T09:23:28Z otwieracz: Thing to note - I am connected to remote system via SWANK. 2017-07-19T09:27:16Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:27:18Z antoszka: otwieracz: This shouldn't make a difference, I think the swank protocol is network agnostic. 2017-07-19T09:27:40Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:27:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T09:27:53Z otwieracz: That was my original thought. 2017-07-19T09:28:11Z phoe: otwieracz: is that thread in some tight loop or something? 2017-07-19T09:28:32Z otwieracz: It's lparallel kernel thread. 2017-07-19T09:30:20Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:30:37Z phoe: well - if it does not react to any interruptions or attempts to enter the debugger, I bet it's time for it to die, then. 2017-07-19T09:30:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:31:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:32:13Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:32:49Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:42:15Z closkar: otwieracz: I've often had the same problem. Just to confirm that your issue is not local to your system. 2017-07-19T09:42:44Z otwieracz: ko 2017-07-19T09:42:44Z otwieracz: ok 2017-07-19T09:48:43Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:54:34Z nowhere_man quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-19T09:54:47Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:55:23Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T09:55:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T09:57:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T09:57:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:00:09Z nowhere_man quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-19T10:00:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T10:00:22Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:02:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:02:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T10:02:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:02:49Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T10:06:36Z DeadTrickster__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T10:06:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:07:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T10:09:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:11:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:12:00Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:14:18Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:14:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T10:14:26Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-19T10:15:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:20:15Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:23:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T10:23:28Z elazul joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:24:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:29:10Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T10:29:45Z michael_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:30:18Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:32:11Z michael_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T10:33:53Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T10:34:01Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:37:59Z Zotan joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:41:08Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-19T10:43:29Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:44:55Z muyinliu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T10:45:21Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T10:51:55Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T10:52:08Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T10:53:11Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-19T10:54:40Z aceluck quit 2017-07-19T10:56:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:04:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:06:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:11:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:18:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:23:49Z jasom joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:25:10Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:28:02Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:29:57Z reverse_light quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:29:59Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:30:30Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:36:11Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-19T11:39:54Z maarhart quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:41:51Z elazul quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-19T11:42:57Z kami joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:43:25Z kami: Hello #lisp. 2017-07-19T11:48:56Z deba5e12 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:50:41Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:53:40Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:53:40Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T11:56:11Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2017-07-19T11:56:55Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T11:57:30Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T12:03:07Z phoe: Hey kami 2017-07-19T12:03:39Z phoe: I have just successfully tested CL-LZMA on a different linux64 machine. Like, git clone into local-projects, quickloading, running the tests. 2017-07-19T12:04:02Z phoe: Once I get the libraries compiled for win{32,64}, mac{32,64} and linux32 - I think I can ship it. 2017-07-19T12:04:11Z thetabit quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-19T12:05:29Z shka: cool 2017-07-19T12:05:37Z shka: btw 2017-07-19T12:05:50Z shka: do you need it or you are doing it just for fun? 2017-07-19T12:05:54Z phoe: I need it. 2017-07-19T12:05:59Z shka: hmm 2017-07-19T12:06:04Z phoe: I have a project that requires me to compress/decompress LZMA data. 2017-07-19T12:07:09Z shka: oh, nice 2017-07-19T12:08:37Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-19T12:09:07Z phoe: I'll compile this on Windows and Mac when I get home. For Windows, I can cross-compile with mingw; for Mac, I'll finally install a programming environment on my hackintosh. 2017-07-19T12:11:12Z phoe: ...or use https://github.com/tpoechtrager/osxcross 2017-07-19T12:11:48Z phoe: Maybe I'll livestream that one, too. 2017-07-19T12:14:15Z phoe: Xach: what are the OS-portability requirements for Quicklisp projects? 2017-07-19T12:14:51Z phoe: Like - can I request adding a project to Quicklisp, if the project only loads under linux64? 2017-07-19T12:15:07Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T12:23:35Z m00natic` joined #lisp 2017-07-19T12:23:38Z axion: phoe: It needs to be portable, and it must work on _at least_ linux64 2017-07-19T12:24:12Z phoe: axion: it should work on any implementation that supports CFFI, and it does support only linux64 at the moment with more in plans. 2017-07-19T12:24:27Z axion: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/01/getting-library-into-quicklisp.html 2017-07-19T12:24:45Z phoe: Oh - correct. I did not think of looking there. 2017-07-19T12:27:49Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T12:29:11Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-19T12:29:43Z __paul0 is now known as paul0 2017-07-19T12:49:44Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T12:53:55Z shka: maybe someone wants to make Multicorn for CL? :-) 2017-07-19T12:59:08Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:00:05Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T13:02:32Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:03:05Z phoe: what's multicorn? 2017-07-19T13:04:10Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T13:04:49Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T13:04:55Z phoe: ooh, looks nice. 2017-07-19T13:07:01Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:08:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T13:10:23Z shka: phoe: quite usefull stuff 2017-07-19T13:11:26Z phoe: yes, I see 2017-07-19T13:12:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:12:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T13:12:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:15:04Z amz3: scheme forever! 2017-07-19T13:15:23Z amz3 quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T13:15:23Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:15:26Z shka: is that some sort of provocation? :) 2017-07-19T13:15:53Z amz3 hides 2017-07-19T13:16:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:17:27Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:17:43Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:17:58Z phoe: amz3: Scheme will live long enough, don't worry 2017-07-19T13:18:07Z phoe: ...so will Lisp 2017-07-19T13:18:37Z shka: phoe: fun fact 2017-07-19T13:18:49Z shka: majority of pg fwds are based on multicorn 2017-07-19T13:19:22Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:21:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T13:26:02Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:26:23Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:28:56Z maarhart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T13:29:45Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T13:30:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:30:20Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:30:59Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:46:54Z slark quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-19T13:55:40Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-19T13:56:38Z heurist` is now known as heurist 2017-07-19T13:58:12Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:02:44Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T14:04:30Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T14:06:23Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T14:07:22Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:07:43Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:11:04Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T14:11:24Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T14:14:38Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:15:35Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:18:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T14:29:49Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:31:26Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T14:31:33Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:31:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:32:37Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:33:12Z maarhart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T14:36:25Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T14:41:49Z franogrex joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:41:50Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T14:42:53Z franogrex: hi I have something like (loop for line = (read) while line do ... finally (return line)) 2017-07-19T14:43:09Z bend3r_ is now known as bend3r 2017-07-19T14:43:21Z phoe: franogrex: so you essentially return NIL 2017-07-19T14:43:23Z franogrex: basically i want to only retain the last reading and the intermediate results i don't case about 2017-07-19T14:43:42Z franogrex: not nil no 2017-07-19T14:44:26Z phoe: How does this loop terminate? 2017-07-19T14:44:30Z franogrex: is there like a do NOP? 2017-07-19T14:44:43Z phoe: franogrex: do (progn) 2017-07-19T14:44:45Z Bike: uh... don't have a do clause. 2017-07-19T14:44:47Z dlowe: it terminates with an end of file condition 2017-07-19T14:44:55Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T14:45:06Z phoe: yes - and at EOF, line will be NIL, so (return line) ;=> NIL 2017-07-19T14:45:09Z dlowe: you *probably* want (read-line stream nil) 2017-07-19T14:45:26Z dlowe: at EOF, line will not be NIL. You will be in the debugger. 2017-07-19T14:45:37Z phoe: oh. right. 2017-07-19T14:49:11Z franogrex: ok do (progn) is fine 2017-07-19T14:50:09Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-19T14:50:48Z dlowe: just don't have a go clause, like Bike said. 2017-07-19T14:51:11Z dlowe: er, do clause 2017-07-19T14:51:20Z Bike: "do (progn)" can be removed with no change 2017-07-19T14:52:41Z franogrex: ok i didn't know i could go from while line to finally ... directly 2017-07-19T14:53:02Z phoe: Lisp test framework question. Is there anything in Lisp that allows me to do stuff like http://paste.lisp.org/display/351234 ? 2017-07-19T14:53:20Z dlowe: pretty much any of the test framework libraries will do that. 2017-07-19T14:53:31Z franogrex: yes the (read) was (read stream ...) 2017-07-19T14:53:41Z phoe: Basically - declare what a test case should do in terms of test steps, then define its implementation while marking the individual test steps, then use that information when displaying error information? 2017-07-19T14:55:16Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T14:57:36Z phoe: dlowe: I know that there are test frameworks that will signal errors, but I want specifically something that also stores human-readable test step descriptions. 2017-07-19T15:00:51Z phoe: Because I kind of doubt that no such framework exists. 2017-07-19T15:01:18Z phoe: In the worst case, I'll write my own^W^W^Wextend one that already exists. 2017-07-19T15:04:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:04:38Z rpg: Does paredit have any command that will "snug up" a bunch of dangling parens that have ended up stranded on a line by themselves? 2017-07-19T15:05:43Z rpg: i.e., delete all the space to the next close paren? 2017-07-19T15:08:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:08:49Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:10:14Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-19T15:10:55Z schweers: rpg: C-SPC C-e ? 2017-07-19T15:11:32Z schweers: rpg: wait, your first and second request don’t seem to match up to me 2017-07-19T15:11:41Z rpg: schweers: that only works if there is no whitespace at the end of the current line, and if the close parens appear on the very next line. 2017-07-19T15:12:10Z schweers: hm. I haven’t used paredit for quite some time 2017-07-19T15:12:31Z rpg: schweers: I think what's wanted is something like (replace-regexp "\\S-\\)" "\\)").... 2017-07-19T15:13:11Z rpg: I find I often end up with parens off on lines by themselves while I'm filling in a structure like a set of class slot definitions, a set of let bindings, etc. 2017-07-19T15:13:27Z schweers: that shouldn’t really happen often 2017-07-19T15:13:32Z rpg: ...or if I delete a final element in one of those constructs. 2017-07-19T15:13:38Z schweers: if it does you’re probably doing something wrong 2017-07-19T15:13:57Z schweers: it happens to me from time to time, but not that often (using lispy, that is) 2017-07-19T15:14:24Z schweers: or paredit/your config have a bug 2017-07-19T15:14:59Z rpg: common use case where nothing is wrong: comment out a final let binding. Drop the closing paren to the next (empty) line so it doesn't get eaten by the comment. Test. Remove the commented-out block. Paren left stranded. No paredit bug AFAICT, no programmer error. 2017-07-19T15:15:38Z schweers: doesn’t paredit do all that for you? 2017-07-19T15:16:02Z rpg: maybe: I'm not so used to how it comments blocks.... 2017-07-19T15:16:47Z schweers: I can’t really comment on paredit, as haven’t used it for a while, but lispy does this, and I’m pretty sure the two are somewhat identical feature-wise 2017-07-19T15:16:50Z rpg: just using the cheat sheet, I don't see a paredit command to comment out an sexp. 2017-07-19T15:17:45Z schweers: i.e. when point is at "|" in this expr: (let ((var1 ...)|(var2 ...))...) using paredit-comment or whatever should do The Right Thing 2017-07-19T15:18:00Z schweers: i.e. insert a line break after (var2 ...) 2017-07-19T15:19:09Z schweers: does this help you? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4288339/how-do-you-comment-out-all-or-part-of-a-lisp-s-exp-using-paredit 2017-07-19T15:19:16Z logicmoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T15:20:43Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:21:13Z rpg: schweers: I think so. Let me test it. 2017-07-19T15:21:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:30:22Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-19T15:36:40Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T15:38:34Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T15:39:22Z d4ryus4 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:39:22Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T15:42:00Z d4ryus3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T15:47:29Z rpg: I like paredit, but there are definitely cases where it feels too rigid (like where I want to copy a set of let bindings, but not the body that comes with it. I would like it more if it were easier to say "yes, I know that the parens are messed up, and now I'm fixing them." 2017-07-19T15:49:15Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T15:49:40Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:50:22Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:50:32Z chens joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:50:41Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T15:51:49Z franogrex quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-07-19T15:56:37Z maarhart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T15:56:51Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-19T15:58:42Z SAL9000: rpg: there is smartparens 2017-07-19T15:58:57Z SAL9000: it's a superset of paredit 2017-07-19T15:59:07Z rpg: SAL9000: oh. I'll have a look, thanks! 2017-07-19T15:59:36Z SAL9000: np! smartparens by default is 'non-strict' in that it doesn't prevent you making (or fixing) messed up parens 2017-07-19T15:59:45Z SAL9000: smartparens-strict-mode provides that if you want it 2017-07-19T16:01:10Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:04:02Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:04:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:04:39Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:05:22Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:14:35Z FakePedro1 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:15:30Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T16:15:30Z FakePedro1 is now known as FakePedro 2017-07-19T16:20:13Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T16:20:41Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:21:06Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:21:24Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:21:27Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T16:21:36Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T16:25:56Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T16:27:07Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T16:27:36Z maarhart quit (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com) 2017-07-19T16:30:11Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:30:47Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T16:31:43Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T16:32:07Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:33:46Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:38:19Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T16:38:30Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T16:38:49Z paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:39:19Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:40:01Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T16:43:31Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:45:44Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2017-07-19T16:48:21Z schweers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T16:56:37Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-19T16:59:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:01:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:03:28Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:12:18Z m00natic` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T17:13:38Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:15:39Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:16:20Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:18:40Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:20:25Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:26:54Z kbtr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T17:27:33Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-19T17:27:35Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:27:44Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:28:08Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:29:27Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:31:00Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:31:13Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:31:28Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:33:13Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:35:29Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:37:43Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:43:38Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:44:08Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:44:50Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:46:37Z deep-book-gk_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-19T17:47:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:47:48Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:56:29Z azrazalea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T17:58:55Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2017-07-19T17:59:24Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T18:00:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T18:00:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:04:43Z anon_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T18:05:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T18:06:52Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:08:41Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:13:30Z maarhart quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T18:14:52Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T18:15:30Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:16:08Z elazul joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:16:50Z anon joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:17:06Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T18:17:13Z anon is now known as Guest1906 2017-07-19T18:18:24Z aceluck quit 2017-07-19T18:23:01Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:23:03Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T18:27:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T18:28:00Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:34:24Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2017-07-19T18:36:10Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-19T18:42:05Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T18:49:32Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-19T18:57:19Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T19:01:11Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:03:00Z xantoz joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:04:39Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:06:48Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:12:11Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2017-07-19T19:13:14Z clintm: How would I get the actual error from a error with asdf running a grovel operation? A header is probably missing, but there's no helpful message at the top of the slime buffer to guide me. 2017-07-19T19:13:36Z clintm: I went through the backtrace as well, to no avail. 2017-07-19T19:14:03Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:14:41Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:17:08Z phoe: ...so if my question about testing frameworks was not answered, I think it's time to write some Lisp. 2017-07-19T19:25:51Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:26:10Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:26:23Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:29:14Z clintm: oooooh, the errors went to the terminal the image is running on and not over swank. Good to know. 2017-07-19T19:29:41Z tinyurl_comSLASH joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:31:14Z phoe: this sounds like a bug. if they're Lisp errors, then these errors should definitely go to the swank output. 2017-07-19T19:31:56Z Bike: well, they're probably like, C errors 2017-07-19T19:32:04Z Bike: messages from cc 2017-07-19T19:32:12Z tinyurl_comSLASH left #lisp 2017-07-19T19:32:17Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:32:41Z phoe: ...oh. At this point, they won't go to swank since they go to the Unix stdio. 2017-07-19T19:32:50Z clintm: yea, they are. Missing headers... which are in /usr/local/lib, but are special *invisible* headers :P 2017-07-19T19:33:08Z maarhart quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T19:33:14Z phoe: clintm: my suggestion is basically running the SBCL image in some sort of tmux, so you can ssh into the server, tmux attach, and read what's going on. 2017-07-19T19:33:55Z clintm: As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I do :) I just hadn't looked at that term window in a while. 2017-07-19T19:34:06Z phoe: :) 2017-07-19T19:35:25Z elazul quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-19T19:37:06Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-19T19:44:34Z diegs_ quit (Quit: brb pimpin out ERC) 2017-07-19T19:47:26Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-19T19:54:44Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:00:57Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-07-19T20:04:19Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2017-07-19T20:08:35Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:14:53Z FakePedro quit (Quit: FakePedro) 2017-07-19T20:14:57Z aeth: phoe: there probably is a test framework that does what you want, if only because there are probably 30 test frameworks 2017-07-19T20:15:14Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:15:55Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-19T20:18:36Z dlowe: whoops, 31 now :D 2017-07-19T20:19:07Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:19:47Z phoe: aeth: I want the one that does it. 2017-07-19T20:20:01Z phoe: dlowe: no, I want to extend one of the testing frameworks. Just, which one? 2017-07-19T20:20:03Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T20:20:10Z phoe: (insert obligatory xkcd standards image here) 2017-07-19T20:20:37Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:21:59Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T20:25:59Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T20:25:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T20:26:24Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:27:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:27:13Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:27:13Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:29:23Z phoe: clhs adjoin 2017-07-19T20:29:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjoin.htm 2017-07-19T20:29:30Z phoe: minion: memo for phoe: boop 2017-07-19T20:29:30Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-07-19T20:29:30Z minion: phoe, memo from phoe: boop 2017-07-19T20:29:41Z phoe: The bots are back! 2017-07-19T20:30:05Z phoe: Everyone, praise ehuelsmann from #common-lisp.net! 2017-07-19T20:30:06Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-19T20:30:22Z Bike: thanks, ehuelsmann from #common-lisp.net 2017-07-19T20:36:49Z FakePedro quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T20:36:54Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:38:25Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T20:38:48Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:40:01Z phoe: geez, Bike, I love your enthusiasm 2017-07-19T20:40:53Z MrBismuth quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-07-19T20:41:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T20:46:25Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-19T20:46:49Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-19T20:53:27Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:06:32Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:09:10Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-19T21:11:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T21:15:50Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:16:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T21:18:41Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:19:48Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:28:31Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:32:17Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T21:33:29Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:34:41Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-19T21:35:01Z ym joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:35:16Z itruslove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T21:35:16Z giraffe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T21:35:34Z foom2 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:38:19Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:44:22Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:50:08Z Guest1906 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:51:57Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:52:28Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-19T21:52:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:52:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-19T21:52:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:52:51Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:53:58Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-19T21:57:43Z akkad: cl dot net... 2017-07-19T21:58:02Z Cthulhux: good idea, actually 2017-07-19T22:00:31Z knusbaum: How hard is the CLR to target? 2017-07-19T22:01:54Z Cthulhux: not much. several lisps did/do 2017-07-19T22:02:12Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T22:02:35Z Cthulhux: also, http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 2017-07-19T22:04:34Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T22:05:03Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-19T22:18:20Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T22:19:32Z aceluck quit 2017-07-19T22:21:41Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-19T22:24:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-19T22:42:20Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-19T22:49:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T22:50:01Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T22:52:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-19T22:53:38Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-19T22:53:56Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T22:54:03Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-19T22:56:26Z scottj left #lisp 2017-07-19T22:59:32Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T23:00:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T23:00:39Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T23:00:45Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:01:16Z capisce quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T23:01:22Z capisce joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:02:10Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-19T23:03:17Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:04:11Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:04:41Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T23:07:07Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T23:11:28Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:13:09Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T23:13:33Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T23:13:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:14:20Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T23:14:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:15:08Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T23:15:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:16:40Z ralt joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:16:42Z ralt: hi 2017-07-19T23:17:06Z ralt: I'm trying to build an executable with ECL, using asdf's :entry-point 2017-07-19T23:17:08Z Cthulhux: hi 2017-07-19T23:17:28Z ralt: but it fails with "No such file or directory", trying to look for .a files 2017-07-19T23:17:33Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-19T23:17:36Z ralt: (gcc errors out, that is.) 2017-07-19T23:17:44Z ralt: what am I missing? 2017-07-19T23:20:02Z ralt: a-ha! 2017-07-19T23:20:21Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:20:27Z ralt: apparently, (asdf:perform 'asdf:program-op :mypackage) wasn't the way to go 2017-07-19T23:20:37Z ralt: but (asdf:make-build :mypackage :type :program) is. 2017-07-19T23:20:43Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-19T23:23:04Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-19T23:26:08Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T23:26:19Z rpg: ralt: you never call PERFORM directly.... (asdf:oos 'asdf:program-op :mypackage) might have worked (operate-on-system, not PERFORM). 2017-07-19T23:26:41Z rpg: It's ASDF's job to figure out which calls to PERFORM must be made, and in what order. 2017-07-19T23:27:16Z ralt: rpg: thanks, I didn't know. 2017-07-19T23:27:16Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:31:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:33:20Z rumbler31 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-19T23:35:29Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T23:37:36Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:42:45Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-19T23:46:57Z MetaHert` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-19T23:53:49Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:00:30Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T00:01:20Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:01:47Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T00:02:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:04:31Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T00:05:53Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:06:43Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T00:06:55Z kbtr joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:09:40Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T00:22:10Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:32:20Z anon_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:35:48Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T00:38:18Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:40:02Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:44:46Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T00:45:33Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T00:45:50Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:46:13Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-07-20T00:51:33Z ralt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T00:54:17Z tefter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T01:04:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-20T01:16:17Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T01:21:58Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-20T01:22:18Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T01:28:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-20T01:29:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-20T01:31:20Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T01:37:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-20T01:37:26Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T01:39:07Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-20T01:43:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T01:45:08Z tephra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T01:45:20Z tephra joined #lisp 2017-07-20T01:54:35Z keviv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T01:55:28Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:00:44Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T02:01:10Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:06:06Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:10:46Z itruslove joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:13:26Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:13:44Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:14:00Z giraffe is now known as Guest89848 2017-07-20T02:14:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T02:20:17Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T02:22:26Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:22:47Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-20T02:23:35Z diegs_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T02:23:48Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:23:57Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T02:24:24Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T02:26:44Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:28:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-20T02:30:22Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:34:04Z Fare: beach, good evening! 2017-07-20T02:35:11Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T02:39:05Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:42:44Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T02:42:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:47:29Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-20T02:50:10Z caffe: good morning, beach 2017-07-20T02:58:34Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T03:05:15Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:08:14Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:14:53Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:19:20Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:19:46Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:27:20Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:33:05Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T03:34:52Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:36:10Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:42:21Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:44:08Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T03:44:29Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:45:10Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-20T03:47:04Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T03:47:57Z EvW2 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:49:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-20T03:49:14Z EvW2 is now known as EvW 2017-07-20T03:50:43Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T03:52:52Z keviv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T03:53:59Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T03:54:37Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-20T03:59:34Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-20T04:01:43Z keviv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T04:02:10Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:02:50Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:03:55Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:04:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T04:04:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:05:58Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:09:46Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:10:33Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-20T04:11:32Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T04:13:54Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T04:18:11Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T04:19:37Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:19:39Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-20T04:21:33Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T04:23:41Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:23:53Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T04:24:39Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:25:52Z sfa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-20T04:28:32Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:30:11Z lanu quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T04:30:28Z lanu joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:30:51Z lanu quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T04:33:01Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T04:33:24Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:40:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:43:46Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T04:45:01Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:46:04Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T04:48:23Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T04:48:41Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T04:49:30Z segmond quit (Quit: feh) 2017-07-20T04:50:15Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:55:28Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-20T04:57:22Z arborist joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:00:17Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-20T05:01:45Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:05:57Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T05:07:27Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T05:09:00Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:10:40Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:13:05Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-20T05:14:23Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:14:26Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T05:15:11Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:16:34Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T05:18:08Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:18:57Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T05:21:37Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:26:03Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:29:31Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:32:12Z maarhart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T05:32:43Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T05:33:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:34:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:37:28Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-20T05:38:37Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T05:44:15Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-20T05:51:17Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:57:43Z ostera joined #lisp 2017-07-20T05:59:03Z jeremiah__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-20T06:00:03Z ostera quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T06:03:07Z emaczen` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T06:06:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:15:08Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T06:17:13Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-20T06:17:27Z reinuseslisp joined #lisp 2017-07-20T06:19:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:19:30Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-20T06:24:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:27:24Z reinuseslisp: is it there any common lisp for mac os 9.2.2 (pre os x)? 2017-07-20T06:29:05Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:39:23Z phoe: reinuseslisp: Macintosh Common Lisp? 2017-07-20T06:40:29Z phoe: hm. 2017-07-20T06:40:29Z beach: CCL was forked from MCL. Maybe CCL works. 2017-07-20T06:40:38Z reinuseslisp: thanks 2017-07-20T06:40:55Z reinuseslisp: hmm, ccl supports Darwin 2017-07-20T06:40:58Z phoe: CCL: Mac OS X 10.6 and later (x86, x86-64) 2017-07-20T06:41:15Z phoe: Nope, I can't find a version for Mac OS 9. 2017-07-20T06:41:43Z reinuseslisp: I hope asdf works on MCL 2017-07-20T06:43:12Z phoe: I don't think so. 2017-07-20T06:43:16Z phoe: MCL is ancient. 2017-07-20T06:43:45Z beach: reinuseslisp: You may want to check with pjb. He has worked on MCL for some projects as I recall. 2017-07-20T06:45:32Z reinuseslisp: does he connect here? 2017-07-20T06:45:40Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:47:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:47:07Z beach: Yes, regularly. 2017-07-20T06:47:26Z beach: He is sometimes ogamita, and sometimes pjb. 2017-07-20T06:48:47Z segmond quit (Quit: me gone) 2017-07-20T06:49:08Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-20T06:51:00Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-20T06:53:01Z reinuseslisp: Thanks. I've found a (dated) MCL dmg file, I'll try it tomorrow 2017-07-20T06:53:16Z beach: Good luck. 2017-07-20T06:53:37Z reinuseslisp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-20T06:55:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-20T06:57:16Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:59:22Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T06:59:59Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T07:01:24Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:06:07Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:10:03Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:11:38Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:16:04Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:20:38Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T07:20:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T07:22:30Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T07:31:32Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T07:32:17Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-20T07:32:25Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:32:43Z xantoz joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:33:45Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:37:45Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T07:48:05Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T07:50:08Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-20T08:06:26Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:07:52Z cods quit (Quit: broken) 2017-07-20T08:08:11Z cods joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:09:47Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:11:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:12:28Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T08:14:32Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:15:15Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:16:21Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-20T08:17:01Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:17:59Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T08:19:34Z daniel-s_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-20T08:21:24Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-20T08:29:56Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:32:26Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T08:32:42Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:35:01Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:35:29Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T08:35:30Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2017-07-20T08:36:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T08:37:15Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:39:08Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T08:42:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:46:33Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:49:38Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-20T08:51:13Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T08:53:07Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-07-20T08:57:00Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T09:09:55Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T09:13:13Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-07-20T09:16:06Z flip214: I'm trying to use CFFI. I need to allocate a pointer (done via (cffi:with-foreign-object (x :pointer))), and then need to pass the _address_ of that pointer to a function. 2017-07-20T09:16:23Z flip214: I can't find a function to get me the address of the SAP, though... 2017-07-20T09:16:46Z flip214: Do I need to check the foreign function declaration to make it pass the address of the SAP on? 2017-07-20T09:17:12Z phoe: uh 2017-07-20T09:17:19Z phoe: you just pass x to the function 2017-07-20T09:17:36Z phoe: if foreign function FOO expects a pointer, then you go (foo x) 2017-07-20T09:17:47Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T09:18:07Z flip214: well, it's about gphoto2 and (cffi:defcfun ("gp_list_new" gp_list_new) :int (list :pointer)) 2017-07-20T09:18:31Z phoe: (gp_list_new x) 2017-07-20T09:18:35Z flip214: this actually needs to get the address of a pointer, so that it can allocate some memory and "return" the address 2017-07-20T09:18:52Z phoe: address of a pointer? 2017-07-20T09:18:55Z phoe: a pointer *is* an address 2017-07-20T09:19:12Z phoe: ...ohhh wait 2017-07-20T09:19:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T09:19:24Z phoe: you need the memory location at which the pointer is stored? 2017-07-20T09:19:53Z phoe: so basically a pointer pointer? 2017-07-20T09:20:04Z flip214: yes 2017-07-20T09:20:19Z flip214: CameraList *list; gp_list_new(&list); 2017-07-20T09:20:21Z flip214: in C 2017-07-20T09:20:41Z flip214: int gp_list_new (CameraList **list); 2017-07-20T09:20:46Z flip214: is the C header file line 2017-07-20T09:20:53Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T09:21:19Z phoe: cffi:pointer-address? 2017-07-20T09:21:48Z phoe: no, wait. 2017-07-20T09:22:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T09:22:39Z phoe: Let's go a level below 2017-07-20T09:23:09Z phoe: You have a function, it expects to get some memory address as its argument. 2017-07-20T09:24:06Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T09:24:33Z phoe: You give it an address of a size_t, it does some magic and destructively modifies the size_t at that address. Do I get it right? 2017-07-20T09:24:49Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-20T09:25:10Z flip214: well, I give it the address of a (void *), and the _destination_ of that pointer is modified, yeah. 2017-07-20T09:25:35Z flip214: not sure whether size_t is always the same size.... but I guess at least same size. 2017-07-20T09:26:04Z phoe: size_t is size of a pointer, 4 bytes on 32-bit machines, 8 bytes on 64-bit machines. 2017-07-20T09:26:28Z phoe: also, in CFFI, pointers are untyped. you only type them when you dereference them. 2017-07-20T09:26:46Z phoe: so you can just allocate size_t bytes of memory and pass that address to that function. 2017-07-20T09:27:11Z phoe: when that function returns, that address will now contain what you want. 2017-07-20T09:27:55Z flip214: yeah, but how do I pass the address? That's what I'm trying to do in these wrapper functions... 2017-07-20T09:28:12Z phoe: in case of pointers - just pass the object. 2017-07-20T09:29:03Z phoe: CFFI will notice that you passed it a SAP object, and it will unwrap it and pass the pointer itself to the C function. 2017-07-20T09:30:24Z flip214: yeah, but to _initialize_ the pointer I need to pass the _address_ of that pointer to a function! 2017-07-20T09:30:36Z flip214: Ie. "gp_list_new(CameraList **list)" 2017-07-20T09:31:05Z flip214: one sec, paste incoming. 2017-07-20T09:32:16Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-20T09:32:23Z phoe: flip214: you don't get it yet. a pointer to a pointer *is* a pointer. 2017-07-20T09:32:55Z phoe: *that* is the pointer that you want to create and pass. the "outer" one. 2017-07-20T09:33:56Z phoe: forget about C types for a moment. all in all, you are not allocating "pointers to pointers". you're allocatiing size_t bytes of raw memory, and that's what your function actually expects. 2017-07-20T09:37:23Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351275 2017-07-20T09:38:29Z beach: It would help if you used the right terminology. 2017-07-20T09:38:34Z christiaan joined #lisp 2017-07-20T09:38:45Z beach: A pointer is just a value, like an integer is a value. 2017-07-20T09:38:54Z flip214: I know about the low-level implications. I just don't know or even _where_ to tell CFFI that it needs to pass the "object" (as in the address of the allocated memory range) versus it needs to pass the _content_ (the size_t bytes in that object that now contain the address to some memory) 2017-07-20T09:39:01Z beach: So you can't take the address of a pointer, just like you can't take the address of an integer. 2017-07-20T09:39:19Z beach: You can take the address of a VARIABLE containing a pointer or an integer of course. 2017-07-20T09:39:50Z christiaan: What is the diffrence between let and let* ? Im reading the help for both in emacs, but its not clearer. 2017-07-20T09:40:28Z beach: christiaan: For LET*, the bindings are established sequentially, so that the variable bound in the first binding is available to the forms of the subsequent bindings. 2017-07-20T09:40:28Z flip214: swig gave me (:pointer) as types for both "CameraList**" and "CameraList*"; perhaps I need to fix _that_ to make it clear what needs to be passed?! 2017-07-20T09:40:29Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T09:40:40Z beach: christiaan: This is not the case for LET. 2017-07-20T09:40:42Z phoe: flip214: CFFI pointers are untyped. 2017-07-20T09:40:48Z phoe: You always get :pointer types. 2017-07-20T09:41:14Z phoe: flip214: okay, from a different side. 2017-07-20T09:41:31Z flip214: beach: well, a pointer needs to be stored somewhere... and I'd like to pass the address of that storage location, so that the called function can "return" me where its allocated data lives. 2017-07-20T09:41:55Z phoe: flip214: a pointer to a pointer is just a pointer. 2017-07-20T09:42:01Z phoe: You allocate a pointer, and pass this to the function. 2017-07-20T09:42:10Z phoe: The function stores whatever it wants under that location. 2017-07-20T09:42:16Z flip214: phoe: NO. 2017-07-20T09:42:19Z flip214: not in this case. 2017-07-20T09:42:52Z flip214: THIS function needs a pointer to size_t bytes where it can put the address of allocated memory. 2017-07-20T09:43:08Z flip214: and I need to pass that address (of allocated memory) to other functions. 2017-07-20T09:43:19Z flip214: and this difference is lost across Swig => CFFI. 2017-07-20T09:43:26Z phoe: A pointer to size_t bytes is a pointer to a pointer. 2017-07-20T09:43:55Z flip214: but how would I reflect that in lisp and cffi? "The value 140730302857200 is not of type SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER when binding SB-ALIEN::VALUE 2017-07-20T09:44:06Z flip214: when trying to pass something to another function. 2017-07-20T09:44:09Z phoe: Where did you get an integer from 2017-07-20T09:44:31Z beach: christiaan: So if you have (let ((x 1)) (let ((x 2) (y x)) (+ x y))) the x in (y x) refers to the outermost x, and you get 3, but in (let ((x 1)) (let* ((x 2) (y x)) (+ x y))), the x in (y x) refers to the inner x, so you get 4. 2017-07-20T09:44:39Z flip214: see my paste, CFFI:POINTER-ADDRESS 2017-07-20T09:44:59Z beach: flip214: No, a pointer does not NEED to be stored anywhere. 2017-07-20T09:45:49Z flip214: that's becoming philosophical.... if it's not stored anywhere (not even in a register), is it still a pointer?? ;) sorry. 2017-07-20T09:46:03Z phoe: a pointer is just size_t bytes of allocated memory 2017-07-20T09:46:08Z flip214: phoe: yes. 2017-07-20T09:46:09Z beach: flip214: Take (x + 1) where x is a pointer. The resulting pointer is stored nowhere (at least not in a memory location). You can do *(x + 1) to dereference it without storing it in memory. 2017-07-20T09:46:53Z flip214: but how would I pass a) the address of the size_t bytes to a function to initialize them and later on b) pass these size_t bytes (now interpreted as a pointer) to another function? 2017-07-20T09:46:57Z beach: flip214: You can't take the address of a register, which is why you can only take the address of variables (or similar, like array locations) but not of values like integers and pointers. 2017-07-20T09:47:11Z phoe: flip214: is the MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR coming from line 28 or 29? 2017-07-20T09:47:32Z beach: christiaan: Get it? 2017-07-20T09:47:39Z flip214: phoe: from the gp_camera_autodetect 2017-07-20T09:47:48Z flip214: because gp_list_new writes to the wrong location 2017-07-20T09:47:56Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-20T09:48:20Z flip214: and so the expected CameraList* isn't initialized 2017-07-20T09:48:49Z christiaan: Think so, basicly the differenc is in the variable scope 2017-07-20T09:49:44Z christiaan: with the let* you create a "local" scope 2017-07-20T09:49:51Z beach: christiaan: Yes, in LET* the forms of the following bindings are included in the scope of a binding. 2017-07-20T09:50:19Z beach: christiaan: "local" scope doesn't make sense. 2017-07-20T09:50:46Z beach: In LET* the forms of the following bindings are included in the scope of a binding. In LET, that is not the case, The scope of a binding covers only the body forms. 2017-07-20T09:51:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-20T09:52:14Z christiaan: ok, I think I get it. Thanks for the explination 2017-07-20T09:52:23Z beach: So if I mark with brackets the scope of x in (let ((x ...) ...) ...) and in (let* ((x ...) (...)) ...), you get (let ((x ...) ...) [...]) and (let* ((x ...) [...) ...]) 2017-07-20T09:52:41Z beach: christiaan: Anytime. 2017-07-20T09:53:23Z _death: flip214: why do you pass x (and not (mem-ref x :pointer)) to gp_camera_autodetect? 2017-07-20T09:53:56Z flip214: _death: because I only right now found https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35841771/common-lisp-cffi-pointer-to-the-pointer telling me about mem-ref .... ;/ 2017-07-20T09:54:08Z phoe: flip214: hey, I mentioned mem-ref before 2017-07-20T09:57:08Z flip214: phoe: you did? I only saw pointer-address, which returns the wrong type (integer instead of a pointer) 2017-07-20T09:57:14Z flip214: thank you all, anyway! 2017-07-20T09:57:24Z phoe: uh... I think I did, up there, somewhere 2017-07-20T09:58:04Z phoe: well, shit - might have just had it on my mind, can't find it now. 2017-07-20T10:00:02Z flip214: never mind. Thank you very much! 2017-07-20T10:02:20Z sparkyy joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:03:20Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:03:21Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:06:31Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T10:06:56Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:06:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T10:07:27Z xieyuheng joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:08:38Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T10:18:48Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:21:22Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T10:22:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T10:24:26Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:38:46Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T10:44:25Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T10:44:48Z pjb1 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:45:05Z pjb1 is now known as pjb 2017-07-20T10:47:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:47:34Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T10:49:40Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:52:35Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:56:48Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T10:57:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-20T10:59:13Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:01:50Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:02:40Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:03:52Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T11:06:37Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-20T11:06:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T11:07:45Z xieyuheng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T11:08:11Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-20T11:18:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:19:34Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:23:53Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:24:35Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T11:30:05Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T11:30:29Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T11:30:53Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:32:53Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T11:33:01Z chens joined #lisp 2017-07-20T11:35:19Z flip214: another question... in CFFI I see this: 2017-07-20T11:35:41Z flip214: (defmacro ... (...) ... (if (constantp type) (... (eval type)))) 2017-07-20T11:36:08Z flip214: CONSTANTP would be true for number literals etc., right? but why is EVAL then needed? 2017-07-20T11:36:35Z flip214: which arguments to macros that are CONSTANTP need an EVAL? 2017-07-20T11:38:27Z Bike: (constantp '(quote x)) => T 2017-07-20T11:39:57Z flip214: Bike: for a macro call like (WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT (x :POINTER) ...), where would QUOTE come from? 2017-07-20T11:40:10Z flip214: the type argument would just be :POINTER, which is CONSTANTP and doesn't need EVAL 2017-07-20T11:40:50Z flip214: oh, you mean somebody might do (WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT (x ':POINTER) ...)? 2017-07-20T11:41:17Z flip214: or rather (WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT (x 'my-type) ...), in analogy with MAKE-INSTANCE or so... 2017-07-20T11:41:31Z flip214: ack, thanks, understood. 2017-07-20T11:43:16Z Bike: i don't know the context, but that's how i usually use constantp and eval, yes. 2017-07-20T12:00:19Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:00:38Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:05:10Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T12:07:09Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:12:14Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:20:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T12:20:36Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:21:34Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:22:27Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T12:25:55Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-20T12:27:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:28:11Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T12:29:02Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-20T12:29:33Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:32:33Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T12:33:50Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:34:28Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:34:38Z kobain quit (Changing host) 2017-07-20T12:34:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:34:52Z flip214: grrrr.... 2017-07-20T12:35:27Z flip214: when using gphoto2 from sbcl, it tries to mmap 10GB of RAM, fails, and then returns a fake USB camera 2017-07-20T12:35:39Z pjb: ok. 2017-07-20T12:35:41Z flip214: same code in C only mmap()s 4MB and so works without any problem 2017-07-20T12:40:31Z phoe: flip214: why does it mmap 10 GB? 2017-07-20T12:44:38Z flip214: phoe: just trying to figure that out... 2017-07-20T12:45:17Z flip214: my current guess is that because of my SBCL image being a few GB in space, it uses the address of some allocated memory block as the next size or so 2017-07-20T12:48:55Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:49:05Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T12:49:38Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:50:38Z diegs_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T12:51:45Z pjb: possibly. 2017-07-20T12:51:59Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T12:52:21Z flip214: pthread_create@@GLIBC_2.2.5 + 60 in section .text of /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 2017-07-20T12:52:42Z flip214: grrrr, "so much time wasted" 2017-07-20T12:58:17Z flip214: 362 if (attr->stacksize != 0) 2017-07-20T12:58:17Z flip214: (gdb) print attr->stacksize 2017-07-20T12:58:17Z flip214: $1 = 0x258000000 2017-07-20T12:58:20Z flip214: grrmpf 2017-07-20T12:58:51Z flip214: that's a pthread attribute.... where does that come from? 2017-07-20T12:59:54Z phoe: flip214: sounds like #sbcl 2017-07-20T13:01:01Z flip214: phoe: sorry, yes. will shut up. 2017-07-20T13:02:00Z phoe: flip214: it's not about shutting you up, it's about poking you in the direction of the people who know the implementation details of SBCL 2017-07-20T13:02:09Z ludston joined #lisp 2017-07-20T13:02:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T13:02:18Z beach: pjb: Earlier, reinuseslisp wondered whether there is any common lisp for mac os 9.2.2 (pre os x). I said you might have some information. 2017-07-20T13:02:21Z phoe: and if you're going *this* low, then it smells very much of implementation details 2017-07-20T13:02:56Z flip214: phoe: no, you're right. 2017-07-20T13:03:01Z flip214: problem isn't sbcl related at all. 2017-07-20T13:03:18Z phoe: ...wait, is it not related to SBCL itself? 2017-07-20T13:04:06Z phoe: Was that pthread called from Lisp code or C code? 2017-07-20T13:04:07Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T13:04:08Z flip214: no, not directly. only happens with sbcl and not a standalone C because of other mechanisms... 2017-07-20T13:04:16Z flip214: from C code, libusb. 2017-07-20T13:05:26Z ludston: All of the resources that I have looked at say, "class slot access is slower than struct" 2017-07-20T13:05:58Z ludston: So as an experiment I changed all of the classes in my program into structs 2017-07-20T13:06:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-20T13:06:07Z ludston: And performance became about 50% worse 2017-07-20T13:06:33Z phoe: ludston: is it a large program? 2017-07-20T13:06:49Z ludston: Not especially. About 20 classes 2017-07-20T13:07:07Z phoe: are you able to extract some kind of code into an example? 2017-07-20T13:07:56Z ludston: It might be tricky, because I'm abusing inheritance and defgeneric a fair bit 2017-07-20T13:08:07Z ludston: And there is some CFFI on the side too 2017-07-20T13:09:16Z ludston: Would it help you somehow? 2017-07-20T13:10:10Z pjb: beach: there's MCL (from DigiTool). I don't have a copy. 2017-07-20T13:10:27Z pjb: Some old version of clisp worked there also I believe. 2017-07-20T13:10:57Z beach: pjb: Is MCL still available? 2017-07-20T13:11:10Z pjb: Nope. It evolved into OpenMCL (ppc) and now it's ccl. 2017-07-20T13:11:21Z beach: Right. Thanks. 2017-07-20T13:11:23Z pjb: But one may be able to locate some old copy. 2017-07-20T13:11:33Z beach: Yes, I understand. 2017-07-20T13:11:38Z pjb: That's the problem with commercial software :-( 2017-07-20T13:11:51Z beach: Indeed 2017-07-20T13:12:44Z pjb: erm, the clisp history only mentions Atari and Amiga. 2017-07-20T13:12:48Z |3b|: well, it was open sourced, no idea if that is still available or not 2017-07-20T13:13:16Z pjb: Perhaps an early version of openmcl, or rmcl which was an intermediary version. 2017-07-20T13:13:21Z pjb: Let me check. 2017-07-20T13:13:46Z |3b|: and wikipedia suggests ftp://ftp.clozure.com/pub/MCL/ which has a .dmg file 2017-07-20T13:14:50Z |3b|: with some rmcl files up a dir from there 2017-07-20T13:15:20Z pjb: Nope, the 68K subdirectories in the sources of rmcl are empty (rmcl = Rosetta MCL AFAIUI). 2017-07-20T13:15:42Z pjb: MacOS 9 didn't use dmg… 2017-07-20T13:15:44Z |3b|: https://code.google.com/archive/p/mcl/downloads seems to have some files too 2017-07-20T13:15:53Z pjb: You'd expect hexbin or stuffit archives. 2017-07-20T13:16:01Z |3b|: ah, right... those list osx 2017-07-20T13:16:05Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-20T13:16:42Z pjb: Oh, he said macos 9.2.2 without precising the processor. it also ran on ppc, so rmcl could do in that case. 2017-07-20T13:17:51Z pjb: https://ccl.clozure.com/openmcl-overview.pdf 2017-07-20T13:19:40Z Bike: ludston: if you're on sbcl, i think it speeds up slot accesses inside appropriately specialized methods. i'd still be surprised to see structs be slower though. 2017-07-20T13:19:45Z Bike: maybe if you have to box things a lot? 2017-07-20T13:20:19Z ludston: Bike: Possibly. I haven't been thinking too hard about type conversions 2017-07-20T13:20:23Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-20T13:21:29Z ludston: Actually that's probably why; Since I stick some explicit types on the structs when I convert their types, it's likely that I have inadvertantly introduces lots of type conversions 2017-07-20T13:21:36Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T13:22:03Z ludston: Wow, I cannot type at this time of night. 2017-07-20T13:22:16Z ludston: Pun unintentional. 2017-07-20T13:24:54Z Bike: guess it depends on what you're doing... if your implementation has unboxed struct storage, i would expect it to have unboxed arithmetic and boxing elision as well 2017-07-20T13:25:01Z Bike: maybe it only does that at high optimization or something 2017-07-20T13:25:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T13:25:55Z ludston: It probably can't, since I'm using more multimethods than I need to 2017-07-20T13:26:17Z ludston: And the dispatch is probably obscuring the types 2017-07-20T13:26:29Z Bike: i don't follow. 2017-07-20T13:27:13Z ludston: I'm hazarding a guess here, but I'd expect that if I did (defmethod add (x y) (+ 1 2)) 2017-07-20T13:27:21Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T13:27:31Z sfa quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-20T13:27:37Z ludston: The compiler probably can't assume that the output of add is a number 2017-07-20T13:27:50Z ludston: Since I could have an add fo strings 2017-07-20T13:27:53Z Bike: pretty much, yeah 2017-07-20T13:28:07Z Bike: also means arguments to add and the result of add must be boxed 2017-07-20T13:28:14Z ludston: So thats what I mean by dispatch obscuring optimisation 2017-07-20T13:29:01Z Bike: i assumed that you would be dispatching on structs, not numbers and stuff. 2017-07-20T13:29:30Z ludston: I am in this case, but if I am dispatching on a struct, and the second argument is a number, for example 2017-07-20T13:30:00Z Bike: yeah, problems. 2017-07-20T13:32:36Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T13:36:27Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T13:51:19Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T13:56:56Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T13:58:03Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:00:45Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T14:03:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:04:01Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-20T14:05:47Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T14:06:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:07:04Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:11:04Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T14:17:08Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:18:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:22:10Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:23:03Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T14:26:40Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T14:29:30Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T14:29:57Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T14:31:48Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:36:57Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-20T14:37:18Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:37:36Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:37:48Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T14:38:24Z flip214: swank:undefine-function in sbcl seems to keep the same function type declaration in place -- redefining the function with a different arglist gives style-warnings 2017-07-20T14:38:33Z flip214: is that by design, or am I doing something wrong? 2017-07-20T14:42:57Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:43:09Z Bike: i don't know what the design of that particular function is, but type declarations are independent of the actual definition. you can declare an ftype for a function before you define it, after all. 2017-07-20T14:43:32Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:44:31Z flip214: so the declaration shouldn't be removed along with the definition by swank? okay, thanks. 2017-07-20T14:50:02Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:52:00Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:53:05Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:53:05Z BW^- quit (Changing host) 2017-07-20T14:53:05Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:53:08Z BW^-: somehow OT but I know some people here know this stuff: 2017-07-20T14:53:19Z BW^-: are you aware of any distributed connected components algorithms for *dynamic* (aka online) graphs? 2017-07-20T14:53:20Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T14:54:17Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:55:10Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T14:55:32Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:55:53Z ludston: My performance problem turned out to be very stupid 2017-07-20T14:56:26Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:56:41Z rpg: BW^-: by dynamic, do you mean graphs where edges and nodes can be added and deleted? 2017-07-20T14:56:46Z ludston: I had a function in a tight loop that was wrapping around a (defmethod) by accident 2017-07-20T14:56:53Z Bike: oh nice 2017-07-20T14:57:35Z ludston: Things learned: If I see a certain kind of lock in the profiler it means it's a function being defined over and over 2017-07-20T14:58:01Z schweers: ludston: you were /defining/ a function in a tight loop? 2017-07-20T14:58:41Z ludston: schweers: Yup, like (defun foo () (defmethod oops-I-Shouldnt-be-here ()) 2017-07-20T14:58:52Z schweers: oops 2017-07-20T14:59:04Z ludston: Paredit slipperyness 2017-07-20T14:59:09Z schweers: I wonder why that got worse when you switched from classes to structs 2017-07-20T14:59:18Z schweers: or was that not the case, and it just seemed that way? 2017-07-20T14:59:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-20T14:59:33Z ludston: No it was measurably worse. I have a frame timer 2017-07-20T14:59:49Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T14:59:50Z ludston: I can switch back and find out 2017-07-20T14:59:52Z schweers: now that you’ve fixed that … it performance using structs better? 2017-07-20T15:02:21Z ludston: Yup 2017-07-20T15:02:28Z schweers: by a lot? 2017-07-20T15:02:35Z ludston: Not, not very much at all 2017-07-20T15:02:51Z Bike: that makes sense. 2017-07-20T15:03:03Z ludston: Maybe 20% faster 2017-07-20T15:03:16Z schweers: doesn’t sound like it’s worth it 2017-07-20T15:03:16Z Bike: you call that not very much? you have high standards 2017-07-20T15:03:32Z Bike: what kind of lock was it? 2017-07-20T15:03:33Z ludston: 20% is nothing 2017-07-20T15:03:43Z ludston: It was a recursive lock 2017-07-20T15:03:50Z ludston: I can link the sbcl source 2017-07-20T15:03:53Z schweers: even a factor of 2 is something I’m mostly not that impressed by 2017-07-20T15:03:53Z Bike: i mean like, was there a particular name 2017-07-20T15:04:25Z ludston: https://github.com/patmaddox/slime/blob/master/swank-sbcl.lisp#L1318 2017-07-20T15:04:52Z Bike: oh, i thought you meant like, a name 2017-07-20T15:05:40Z ludston: Factor of 2, maybe is impressive but in a production environment usually there is *somewhere* that is redundantly O(n) 2017-07-20T15:06:54Z ludston: Or worse :p 2017-07-20T15:07:39Z BW^-: rpg: yes 2017-07-20T15:07:40Z ludston: The most retarded thing I ever rewrote was an O(n!) graph traversal 2017-07-20T15:07:48Z BW^-: rpg: also local (non-distributed) algos, very interested 2017-07-20T15:08:23Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:08:25Z rpg: The only such algorithms I know are for dynamic transitive closure (longest paths), but I'm also interested. 2017-07-20T15:08:29Z ludston: Add 13 nodes and then the program stops for 10 minutes 2017-07-20T15:08:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:08:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T15:09:21Z ludston: This was just to find critical path of a graph, which can easily be done in o(n) 2017-07-20T15:10:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:10:50Z schweers: ludston: why do you care that much about one little ! character? ;-P 2017-07-20T15:12:23Z ludston: schweers: It was impressively bad code. It takes real skill to write something that performs so badly and still has the right answer. 2017-07-20T15:12:32Z schweers: lol 2017-07-20T15:13:21Z schweers: you mean without having to resort to such obvious things as (dotimes (i 100000000000000)) ;) 2017-07-20T15:13:29Z BW^-: rpg: ? 2017-07-20T15:13:46Z ludston: Pretty much 2017-07-20T15:13:53Z ludston: Anywho, sleep time 2017-07-20T15:15:03Z marvin2: are there any efforts to bring static typing to CL? similar to typed clojure 2017-07-20T15:15:42Z flip214: marvin2: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8593261 2017-07-20T15:15:53Z rpg: BW^-: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7241151/how-to-find-connected-component-dynamically 2017-07-20T15:16:08Z rpg: There's a paper citation in there to Holm, et al. 2001. 2017-07-20T15:16:41Z rpg: These look like conventional algorithms, though, not distributed. 2017-07-20T15:16:47Z beach: marvin2: There is no attempt whatsoever to update the Common Lisp standard, if that is what you mean. 2017-07-20T15:16:56Z dTal: not CL, but worth mentioning that Typed Racket is a thing 2017-07-20T15:17:29Z phoe: marvin2: you can write code with static typing in CL 2017-07-20T15:17:43Z phoe: use a lot of DECLARE TYPE and THE 2017-07-20T15:17:44Z marvin2: beach no I meant third party static typing support 2017-07-20T15:18:15Z dTal: Typed Racket + Sweet Expressions looks like Python and Haskell had a baby 2017-07-20T15:18:16Z phoe: marvin2: who is the "third party" you are speaking of? 2017-07-20T15:18:19Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T15:18:29Z oleo: maybe cffi 2017-07-20T15:18:32Z phoe: You can already write typed code in CL. 2017-07-20T15:19:02Z marvin2: phoe you can do type hints for optimization purposes, but they aren't used to check for errors statically 2017-07-20T15:19:10Z phoe: marvin2: of course they are 2017-07-20T15:19:20Z marvin2: nonsense 2017-07-20T15:19:29Z phoe: SBCL compiler complains the moment it cannot properly infer types during compilation 2017-07-20T15:20:06Z phoe: and the moment you use highly typed code (with a lot of DECLARE TYPE and THE forms), you will see these warnings 2017-07-20T15:20:07Z Bike: rather, when it can infer that types are wrong. 2017-07-20T15:20:17Z phoe: oh yes - sorry 2017-07-20T15:21:05Z phoe: and if you (declare (optimize speed)), SBCL complains also about what it could not optimize because of types that it could not recognize 2017-07-20T15:22:02Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:22:27Z dlowe: can I declare a type of a list of integers? 2017-07-20T15:22:37Z Bike: unfortunately not. 2017-07-20T15:22:51Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-20T15:23:02Z dlowe: then I'd say CL's type system is a bit crap 2017-07-20T15:23:07Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:23:23Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:23:31Z flip214: dlowe: see my link above for why that's not supported. 2017-07-20T15:23:31Z dlowe: (through no fault of its own) 2017-07-20T15:23:41Z dlowe: flip214: I already know why it's not supported. 2017-07-20T15:24:00Z flip214: oh, okay; sorry about the noise, then. 2017-07-20T15:24:08Z Bike: you could have list-of-thing types without preventing heterogenuous lists. 2017-07-20T15:24:37Z rpg: It would be really nice to have more type inference support in CL. 2017-07-20T15:24:55Z dlowe: flip214: oh, no problem. I mean, I understand the whys from the inside, but from an outside perspective it still isn't great 2017-07-20T15:25:02Z Bike: you can declare the type of an array to be some type that doesn't correspond to an array storage class, and the compiler can use that information to infer the type of values extracted from the array with aref, find, etc. 2017-07-20T15:25:13Z dlowe: it hasn't stopped me from writing a lot of CL :D 2017-07-20T15:25:30Z rpg: My impression is that gradual typing turns out to be a lot harder than it seems on the face of things.... 2017-07-20T15:26:53Z dlowe: well, when a "type" can be "a thing that satisfies an arbitrary predicate" that seems to be rather hard to optimize or analyze 2017-07-20T15:27:10Z phoe: it's not that hard, it's only Turing complete 2017-07-20T15:27:11Z Bike: you can just ignore those. it's not a problem. 2017-07-20T15:27:12Z phoe ducks 2017-07-20T15:27:28Z Bike: the type system does have plenty of other problems, of course 2017-07-20T15:27:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T15:27:51Z dlowe: sure, I ignore the type system entirely except when sbcl (sometimes, not always) emits a helpful warning 2017-07-20T15:28:05Z random-nick: in a typed language you can also make an array of a union type 2017-07-20T15:28:08Z rpg: Bike doesn't it require use of those arbitrary predicates to reason about homogenous lists of a single type? 2017-07-20T15:28:09Z dlowe: or when using generic functions 2017-07-20T15:28:38Z beach: random-nick: Common Lisp is a typed language. It is dynamically typed. 2017-07-20T15:28:42Z Bike: rpg: yes. what i mean is, the type system could be changed so that you don't need to use predicates for that. 2017-07-20T15:29:00Z phoe: oh yes, what beach said: it has strong dynamic typing. 2017-07-20T15:29:15Z phoe: an integer is always an integer and never anything that's not an integer. 2017-07-20T15:29:23Z dlowe: CL data always has types. Variables sometimes have types. 2017-07-20T15:30:54Z Bike: rpg: as in the problem isn't gradual typing in general, it's the particular system of types lisp has. 2017-07-20T15:33:48Z random-nick: beach: well, you can make a union type in common lisp's type system too using or 2017-07-20T15:34:10Z rpg: Bike: I looked at some papers (but programming languages isn't my field) that seemed to imply that the gradual typing was hard in general. Hm.... some paper from lambda the ultimate... 2017-07-20T15:34:27Z Bike: well, sure, it is 2017-07-20T15:35:07Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:36:29Z rpg: Bike: "Is Sound Gradual Typing Dead?" by Takikawa et al is one... 2017-07-20T15:37:42Z rpg: Bike: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5292 2017-07-20T15:38:12Z rpg: Doing maintenance on ASDF, I'm really finding myself annoyed by trivial type errors that I find only late. 2017-07-20T15:39:00Z Bike: i should probably read that one 2017-07-20T15:39:15Z Bike: though i think it's probably overdramatic 2017-07-20T15:39:41Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:40:10Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T15:43:06Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T15:43:13Z d4ryus4 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T15:43:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:44:08Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:44:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T15:45:37Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-20T15:47:05Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-20T15:47:48Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:47:52Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T15:49:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:51:07Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:52:24Z Bike: sound gradual typing is hard because for soundness you need to put a lot of type checks at typed/unchecked boundaries. right. 2017-07-20T15:53:59Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:55:36Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T15:55:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:58:29Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-20T15:58:49Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-20T15:59:20Z knusbaum quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-20T16:01:28Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:03:40Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:06:01Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:06:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:06:55Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:09:24Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T16:09:59Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:11:41Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:14:10Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:17:57Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:19:43Z Bike: is what "the same, identical object" means in the description of eq defined further anywhere? is the fact that characters and numbers can be "copied" stated outside of the notes on eq? 2017-07-20T16:20:35Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:21:35Z beach: Bike: The glossary says: "Identical adj. the same under eq." 2017-07-20T16:21:52Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T16:22:16Z beach: There is an entry for "same" as well. I won't quote it. 2017-07-20T16:22:37Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:23:00Z Bike: right. 2017-07-20T16:23:03Z beach: Bike: Short story: "same" is relative to some predicate that has to be mentioned explicitly. 2017-07-20T16:23:34Z Bike: yeah, i checked. 2017-07-20T16:23:59Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:26:47Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:28:31Z oleo: eq is always identical 2017-07-20T16:28:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:28:41Z oleo: the same pointer 2017-07-20T16:28:55Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:29:34Z beach: oleo: Yes, but in addition, as I said, the very definition of "identical" involves EQ. 2017-07-20T16:29:42Z oleo: ok 2017-07-20T16:29:47Z oleo: then we said the same thing 2017-07-20T16:29:58Z beach: No, you said EQ => identical 2017-07-20T16:30:05Z beach: I said EQ <=> identical. 2017-07-20T16:30:51Z oleo: how did you derive the arrows there ? 2017-07-20T16:31:02Z Bike: i'm not asking what eq-ness is, i know that, i'm just wondering about the definition a little. "pointer equality" is the usual explanation but it doesn't exactly reflect how a lisp runtime actually works. 2017-07-20T16:31:20Z oleo: yes, it doesn't 2017-07-20T16:31:59Z oleo: there are caveats with shared structure and concurrent programming etc.... 2017-07-20T16:32:01Z beach: oleo: EQ is always identical usually means "if it is EQ then it is identical" which is the same as EQ => identical. But maybe you meant something more. 2017-07-20T16:32:20Z oleo: where stuff may seem to be eq on the surface but what happened in between changed stuff already..... 2017-07-20T16:33:30Z oleo: I said "is" which is already "<=>" for me 2017-07-20T16:33:59Z Bike: the glossary has the term "fresh", and i would take "fresh" to mean "not EQ to any existing object", but it doesn't say that 2017-07-20T16:34:08Z oleo: and "always" was meant wrt to non-compound data 2017-07-20T16:34:15Z beach: oleo: Got it. I'll try to remember. 2017-07-20T16:34:48Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:35:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:35:37Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:35:59Z bitch is now known as |||||||||||||||| 2017-07-20T16:36:13Z beach: Bike: Often in language specifications, it is an attempt to explain something that is obvious when implementation techniques are taken into account, but that become obscure when implementation techniques can not be referred to. 2017-07-20T16:36:28Z beach: The C language specification is way worse than the Common Lisp specification in that respect. 2017-07-20T16:36:35Z Bike: haha, for sure. 2017-07-20T16:36:39Z oleo: dunno how much the standard thought things out 2017-07-20T16:36:49Z beach: oleo: Quite a lot. 2017-07-20T16:37:01Z oleo: is there any way to run out of pointers ? 2017-07-20T16:37:13Z beach: oleo: Some very smart people wrote the Common Lisp standard. 2017-07-20T16:37:24Z oleo: or pointers gc'ed ? 2017-07-20T16:37:44Z oleo: or maybe reused ? 2017-07-20T16:37:50Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-20T16:38:23Z beach: oleo: When an object is no longer referenced, the memory location it occupies is typically reclaimed. And then, a new object may very well get the same address of the one being reclaimed. 2017-07-20T16:38:34Z oleo: aha 2017-07-20T16:38:37Z oleo: ok thank you 2017-07-20T16:38:44Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-20T16:39:53Z beach: oleo: But if you hold on to all the objects you create, you might run out of possible pointers. But that will happen much later than running out of (virtual) memory, and it is safe to assume that it won't happen before your computer crashes. 2017-07-20T16:40:03Z beach: ... at least if you have a 64-bit architecture. 2017-07-20T16:40:13Z oleo: right i thought that too 2017-07-20T16:40:54Z oleo: i'm just not sure on all the implications now that you mentioned reuse of pointers..... 2017-07-20T16:41:05Z oleo: bleh 2017-07-20T16:41:09Z oleo: lol 2017-07-20T16:42:27Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T16:45:05Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:45:18Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T16:49:47Z beach: If you have a 64-bit architecture, then the address space can hold 2^60 CONS cells. Now 2^60 ≅ 10^18. If we assume that it takes say 10ns (= 10^-8 s), it will take 10^10 seconds to fill your address space. There are around 3*10^7 second in a year, so that will come out to 3*10^2 (300 or so) years, unless I made some stupid mistake. 2017-07-20T16:50:02Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:50:14Z beach: If we assume it takes 10ns to allocate a cons cell is what I meant. 2017-07-20T16:50:27Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T16:51:49Z ramus joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:52:17Z mson joined #lisp 2017-07-20T16:58:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:00:36Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-20T17:00:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:01:11Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:01:27Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:03:35Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:04:13Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:04:32Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T17:04:33Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:04:36Z oleo: ok 2017-07-20T17:05:10Z chens` joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:05:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:06:15Z oleo: and on a 32bit arch it would be 2^50 ? 2017-07-20T17:09:48Z chens quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:15:37Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-20T17:21:42Z Bike: weird question. defclass has a compile time side effect of making the class name bound in the compile time environment. then subtypep might be used to query its class precedence list - but the class might not be finalized (or finalizable). what happens? 2017-07-20T17:23:27Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:24:14Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:24:16Z random-nick: if I have a declamation in a package, and use that package in another package, does the declamation exist in the second package? 2017-07-20T17:24:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:25:03Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-20T17:25:52Z Bike: proclamations are independent of packages. you cannot proclaim something "in a package". 2017-07-20T17:27:20Z Bike: proclamations usually last forever, though some implementations limit optimize declarations to a file or a compilation unit 2017-07-20T17:27:28Z random-nick: but what about declamations? 2017-07-20T17:28:24Z handlex joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:28:27Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:28:40Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:28:57Z Bike: if you mean declaim, that just does proclaim. 2017-07-20T17:29:32Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:29:40Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:30:43Z random-nick: huh, I thought they were different thing 2017-07-20T17:31:02Z Bike: no. declaim is a helper macro to ensure that the proclamations are made at compile time. 2017-07-20T17:31:09Z sjl: declaim usually macroexpands into proclaim and an eval-when 2017-07-20T17:34:28Z handlex quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:34:42Z sjl: random-nick: assuming you meant "file" when you said "package", the answer is that it's implementation dependent 2017-07-20T17:34:54Z sjl: see https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/ReleaseNotes/1.9#Limitingtheextentofload-timeOPTIMIZEproclamations for more info 2017-07-20T17:36:56Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:37:25Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:39:52Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:41:50Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:47:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:49:54Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:51:40Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T17:52:04Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:55:37Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:56:15Z thetabit joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:57:21Z thetabit: Can the format function apply optional parameters if they are not nil? 2017-07-20T17:57:43Z thetabit: but when they are nil, not include them in the format 2017-07-20T17:58:03Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T17:58:51Z thetabit: (format t "~A ~A" item1 item2) where Item two might not have a value and thus I dont want format to just print nil 2017-07-20T17:58:55Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T18:00:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T18:01:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-20T18:02:04Z sjl: thetabit: you want ~@[...~] 2017-07-20T18:02:10Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T18:02:47Z thetabit: Okay, I just found that on PCL in the format section 2017-07-20T18:02:49Z thetabit: thanks 2017-07-20T18:02:53Z thetabit: ! 2017-07-20T18:02:56Z sjl: which means "if the argument is nil, consume it and print nothing, but if it's non-nil don't consume it and process the middle" 2017-07-20T18:06:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T18:06:58Z beach: oleo: With a 32-bit architecture, you would run out of address space in a matter of seconds. 2017-07-20T18:07:58Z oleo: hahahha 2017-07-20T18:08:05Z oleo: ok 2017-07-20T18:08:19Z beach: Do the math. You'll see. 2017-07-20T18:12:17Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-20T18:20:27Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-20T18:21:22Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-20T18:22:53Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-20T18:25:47Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-20T18:29:43Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T18:30:34Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-20T18:33:29Z thetabit quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-20T18:40:22Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-20T18:41:00Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-20T18:53:32Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-20T18:54:08Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-20T18:55:00Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T18:55:56Z Spurdo is now known as SpurdoSparde 2017-07-20T18:58:44Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-20T19:01:55Z BW^-: really what does "expected O(1) write per insertion" mean? 2017-07-20T19:02:02Z BW^-: O(1) would mean.. one operation, or something else? 2017-07-20T19:02:34Z knusbaum: Constant time 2017-07-20T19:02:54Z alelos joined #lisp 2017-07-20T19:03:01Z knusbaum: BW^-: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation 2017-07-20T19:03:18Z oleo: O1 is linear 2017-07-20T19:03:21Z phoe: no 2017-07-20T19:03:24Z phoe: O(n) is linear 2017-07-20T19:03:28Z oleo: uups 2017-07-20T19:03:32Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T19:03:32Z oleo: right my bad 2017-07-20T19:03:36Z phoe: O(0) is the best 2017-07-20T19:03:45Z knusbaum: sort of 2017-07-20T19:03:56Z knusbaum: It's really fast, but it does nothing. :) 2017-07-20T19:07:57Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-20T19:09:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-20T19:09:47Z mson quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-20T19:10:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-20T19:11:53Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-20T19:13:14Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2017-07-20T19:14:20Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-20T19:15:36Z pjb: O(1) means the number of operations doesn't depend on the size of the data. 2017-07-20T19:15:50Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-20T19:17:13Z pjb: O(1)=k₁ O(n)=n*k₂ There are k₁ and k₂ such as for any n that you can store on an actual number, O(1)>>O(n). But usually it's O(1)< the last part is a memory address or some other kind of identity, right? Can that change over time due to the garbage collector? I’m using sbcl 2017-07-21T14:27:01Z Bike: it is, and i don't know, but it's possible. 2017-07-21T14:27:01Z Shinmera: It is a representation of the object's identity, and thus cannot change. 2017-07-21T14:27:02Z schweers: or when threading is involved? 2017-07-21T14:27:05Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:27:35Z Bike: the identity is only used in print-unreadable-object. i don't think there are any guarantees on it at all. 2017-07-21T14:27:36Z schweers: Shinmera: even if it’s the address? or is the original address saved somehow? 2017-07-21T14:27:44Z schweers: hmm 2017-07-21T14:28:16Z Bike: you should definitely not rely on it meaning anything in particular. 2017-07-21T14:28:17Z Shinmera: Well, I can't find a guarantee in the spec that it won't change 2017-07-21T14:28:32Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:28:37Z schweers: Bike: I normally wouldn’t, I’m debugging a really weird bug 2017-07-21T14:28:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T14:28:47Z Bike: What is it? 2017-07-21T14:30:01Z schweers: I pass an object via a closure to another thread. I do this in a loop. Normally each thread should have its own instance of this object/class (it’s basically a calispel:channel). But for some reason I have the situation that two or more threads share an object, thus weird things happen 2017-07-21T14:30:13Z beach: schweers: It can definitely change over time. 2017-07-21T14:30:21Z schweers: beach: thanks a lot 2017-07-21T14:30:40Z schweers: not what I hoped for, but good to know 2017-07-21T14:30:56Z schweers: can this behaviour be changed, at least temporarily? 2017-07-21T14:30:59Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T14:31:12Z beach: schweers: You can try to avoid running the GC. 2017-07-21T14:31:16Z Bike: you can define your own print object method that prints some more specified identity 2017-07-21T14:31:17Z Shinmera: FWIW I have yet to observe it changing, at least during debugging. 2017-07-21T14:31:21Z Bike: a value in a hash, for instance 2017-07-21T14:31:34Z beach: schweers: Why do you not want it to change? 2017-07-21T14:31:35Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-21T14:31:52Z Bike: however, for your problem it sounds like you could just eq-test objects from different threads? 2017-07-21T14:31:59Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T14:32:02Z schweers: beach: normally I wouldn’t care, but I’m trying to debug a situation where I care about identities 2017-07-21T14:32:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:32:16Z beach: schweers: The identity remains the same. 2017-07-21T14:32:31Z beach: If you compare it to a saved value, they will be EQ. 2017-07-21T14:32:46Z schweers: I’m not sure how to grab references to both objects to put them into an EQ call 2017-07-21T14:33:17Z beach: schweers: So what are you attempting instead? Visual inspection of the printed representation? 2017-07-21T14:33:24Z schweers: for now, yes 2017-07-21T14:33:32Z schweers: which obviously fails 2017-07-21T14:33:57Z Shinmera: When you create a thread, push its object to a global list or something, and then look at it to see if any of them are the same 2017-07-21T14:34:18Z beach: schweers: Try comparing the sxhash then. 2017-07-21T14:34:28Z schweers: beach: sxhash? 2017-07-21T14:34:42Z Shinmera: ::clhs sxhash 2017-07-21T14:34:43Z Colleen: Clhs: function sxhash http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_sxhash.htm 2017-07-21T14:34:43Z beach: clhs sxhash 2017-07-21T14:34:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sxhash.htm 2017-07-21T14:34:58Z schweers: hmmm, never heard of it, I’ll take a look 2017-07-21T14:34:58Z jackdaniel: sxhash doesn't guarantee distinct values for distinct objects (try calling it on two different vectors on sbcl) 2017-07-21T14:35:10Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T14:35:50Z beach: jackdaniel: No, but at least it won't change as a result of GC. 2017-07-21T14:37:01Z schweers: thanks for the tip, I’ll try it out 2017-07-21T14:37:22Z beach: Sure. Write a method in print-object specialized to your class that uses (say) sxhash. 2017-07-21T14:37:36Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:37:43Z beach: It is not perfect, but it is very unlikely that two objects get the same value then. 2017-07-21T14:37:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:38:20Z schweers: clhs print-object 2017-07-21T14:38:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 2017-07-21T14:38:23Z beach: schweers: Other possibility: add a slot to your class and initialize it to some huge random number. 2017-07-21T14:38:32Z schweers: this this the method I want to use? 2017-07-21T14:38:41Z schweers: or a gensym 2017-07-21T14:38:42Z beach: You want to write one. 2017-07-21T14:38:53Z schweers: yes, but is print-object what I’m looking for? 2017-07-21T14:38:58Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-21T14:38:59Z schweers: i.e. what I want to specialize? 2017-07-21T14:39:01Z schweers: thanks 2017-07-21T14:39:13Z schweers: never done this, only read about it (not in much detail) 2017-07-21T14:39:49Z beach: (defmethod print-object ((object my-class) stream) (format stream "..." (sxhash object))) 2017-07-21T14:40:01Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:40:04Z beach: But you might still want to use PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT. 2017-07-21T14:40:28Z schweers: “use” as in explicitly use? 2017-07-21T14:40:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:41:34Z beach: (defmethod print-object ((object my-class) stream) (print-unreadable-object (object stream :type t) (format stream "~s" (sxhash object)))) 2017-07-21T14:41:45Z schweers: ah, thanks a lot 2017-07-21T14:42:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T14:42:29Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T14:42:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:43:09Z beach: Anytime. 2017-07-21T14:44:35Z pjb: schweers: clhs print-unreadable-object says: If identity is true, the output from forms is followed by a space character and a representation of the object's identity, typically a storage address. 2017-07-21T14:45:37Z beach: pjb: Except that I don't think schweers knows that PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT is what is used by default for printing his objects. 2017-07-21T14:45:40Z pjb: The identity of an object should not change (even if its address changes), so I would expect it not to change. But I guess an implementation may consider the identity at the instant of printing, not over long periods. 2017-07-21T14:45:42Z schweers: pjb: and I’m afraid that changes 2017-07-21T14:46:06Z beach: pjb: So he doesn't (or didn't) know whether that value could change over time. 2017-07-21T14:46:27Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:46:47Z beach: pjb: And in SBCL, it does change as a result of the GC moving the object. 2017-07-21T14:46:47Z pjb: AFAIK, most implementations use the address there, and since the address may change, it's safer not to rely on it over time, to identify the objects. 2017-07-21T14:47:09Z pjb: This is rather confusing during debugging… 2017-07-21T14:47:16Z beach: Very much so. 2017-07-21T14:47:32Z beach: Makes it impossible to do it visually as schweers wanted to do. 2017-07-21T14:48:02Z beach: Like in a trace, the same object may have a different appearance at different times during the trace. 2017-07-21T14:48:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:48:12Z pjb: Better to allocate your own object ID in a slot to each objects you want to identify. 2017-07-21T14:48:24Z Shinmera: using something like UUIDs for that is a good idea. 2017-07-21T14:48:26Z beach: That was one of the suggestions, yes. 2017-07-21T14:48:50Z schweers: I guess I’ll have to do exactly that 2017-07-21T14:49:19Z beach: sxhash is workable, and quicker. 2017-07-21T14:49:40Z pjb: sxhash is far from being a unique identifier… 2017-07-21T14:49:40Z shka: well, it that's just for debugging 2017-07-21T14:49:52Z schweers: if I use (gensym) repeatedly, it it guaranteed that the result always has a distinct printed representation, at least if done within one thread? 2017-07-21T14:49:57Z pjb: Some implemnetations had degenerate cases… 2017-07-21T14:49:59Z shka: you may just copy, right? 2017-07-21T14:50:22Z beach: schweers: GENSYM should be fine. 2017-07-21T14:50:37Z beach: schweers: It must be global, not per-thread. 2017-07-21T14:50:58Z beach: shka: Copy? 2017-07-21T14:51:11Z Shinmera: Running a primitive test, it takes //a lot// of allocation before the GC kicks in and decides to move my instance, thus changing the printed ID. 2017-07-21T14:51:35Z shka: ‎[16:32] ‎<‎schweers‎>‎ beach: normally I wouldn’t care, but I’m trying to debug a situation where I care about identities 2017-07-21T14:51:51Z k42_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:51:54Z shka: so i would simply try to log diffs and call it a day 2017-07-21T14:52:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:52:29Z beach: shka: You speak in riddles. 2017-07-21T14:53:08Z shka: i mean that schweers does not actually care about unique ids for classes, but he seems to just debug how content of class changes in another thread 2017-07-21T14:53:23Z shka: or at the very least that's my impression 2017-07-21T14:53:28Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T14:53:29Z beach: shka: I think you totally misunderstood. 2017-07-21T14:53:40Z schweers: I believe that I have come the conclusion that my problem was not the gc moving objects around after all, yet I still have no clue what the problem actually is :/ 2017-07-21T14:54:23Z beach: schweers: Well, now you have one element of uncertainty removed. 2017-07-21T14:54:28Z Shinmera: schweers: I've been having no idea what the problem in my system is for weeks. 2017-07-21T14:54:40Z shka: beach: perhaps 2017-07-21T14:55:00Z schweers: I do something like this: (iter (for obj in ...) (make-thread (lambda () ... s ...) :name ...)) 2017-07-21T14:55:20Z schweers: if I log `s' on every iteration they all turn out to be distinct (as expected) 2017-07-21T14:55:21Z shka: yes? 2017-07-21T14:55:34Z Bike: iter may not establish a new binding for each closure. 2017-07-21T14:55:46Z schweers: yet on the other hand, there are at least two of these threads which have the same object 2017-07-21T14:55:47Z shka: it does not 2017-07-21T14:55:51Z schweers: uuuhhhhh 2017-07-21T14:55:58Z Bike: try (let ((x s)) (lambda () ... x ...)) instead? 2017-07-21T14:56:00Z schweers: but not all objects have the same 2017-07-21T14:56:01Z shka: schweers: use map 2017-07-21T14:56:06Z Shinmera: Make a (let ((s s)) ..) around your make-thread 2017-07-21T14:56:56Z beach: So everybody except me understood that OBJ and S were the same? 2017-07-21T14:57:02Z schweers: oops 2017-07-21T14:57:06Z schweers: yes 2017-07-21T14:57:12Z shka: beach: yup ;-) 2017-07-21T14:57:15Z beach: ... as usual. 2017-07-21T14:57:15Z Shinmera: beach: I was wondering about that too, but just assumed it was a typo. 2017-07-21T14:57:26Z beach is getting used to it. 2017-07-21T14:58:02Z shka: beach: i thought that you already obtained your telepathic powers 2017-07-21T14:58:08Z schweers is now really confused, as that actually solved the problem 2017-07-21T14:58:09Z shka: what a shame ;-) 2017-07-21T14:58:15Z shka: schweers: yeah 2017-07-21T14:58:34Z velo-alien joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:58:36Z schweers: I’m really confused as to why ITER does this, it just seems wrong 2017-07-21T14:58:41Z beach: I think my training as an engineer has given me this occupational disease. 2017-07-21T14:58:43Z schweers: or is that intended? 2017-07-21T14:58:47Z Shinmera: schweers: what iter does is probably something like this: (let ((s NIL)) (loop-somehow (setf s next-object) ...)) 2017-07-21T14:58:49Z shka: schweers: closure takes value from lexical env 2017-07-21T14:58:55Z shka: you are changing value in the lex env 2017-07-21T14:59:00Z shka: closure value is changed 2017-07-21T14:59:02Z schweers: ugh, you’re probaly right 2017-07-21T14:59:05Z schweers sighs 2017-07-21T14:59:07Z beach: schweers: It's the same for LOOP. The standard gives an option to behave this way for LOOP. 2017-07-21T14:59:18Z schweers: you guys have been really helpful once more, thank you very much 2017-07-21T14:59:29Z Shinmera: Modifying the binding is cheaper, so usually that's what loops do. 2017-07-21T14:59:34Z whoma joined #lisp 2017-07-21T14:59:47Z beach: That's certainly what SICL LOOP does. 2017-07-21T14:59:55Z shka: schweers: try this (let ((result nil)) (map 'nil (lambda (x) (setf result x)) '(1 2 3 4 5)) 2017-07-21T15:00:11Z shka: oh anyway… 2017-07-21T15:00:46Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-21T15:04:39Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:05:38Z blt joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:05:55Z rumbler31: sorry if this is obvious. I'm trying to work with a remote repl for which the network connection peridically drops 2017-07-21T15:06:26Z rumbler31: I renamed the emacs buffer for this connection. but when the connection drops and I re-issue slime-connect, a new repl opens instead of using the existing one 2017-07-21T15:08:16Z rumbler31: I get the impression that the emacs side is looking to open a buffer of the name *slime-repl implementation* and if it finds one, prompts me if I wish to close the old connection. I think if I say yes, the old buffer is reused, if no, a new repl is made 2017-07-21T15:08:54Z whoma: hmm there has to be a way. slime-update-connection-list ? slime-reset? slime-restart-inferior-lisp ? slime-redirect-inferior-output etc ? i would google further. 2017-07-21T15:10:13Z rumbler31: hmm 2017-07-21T15:10:17Z whoma: try through slime-connect perhaps 2017-07-21T15:10:38Z whoma: im googling but i cant find any direct solution, almost like it never really happens 2017-07-21T15:10:59Z Shinmera: restart-inferior-lisp will shut down your lisp process, so definitely don't use that. 2017-07-21T15:11:09Z whoma: might be some info here: http://slime-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com/qYAuQeOD/port-file-and-dedicated-slime-instance 2017-07-21T15:12:06Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T15:16:01Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:18:48Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:18:59Z kolko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T15:19:43Z kolko joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:21:04Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:21:49Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:22:20Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:23:43Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-21T15:29:54Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:32:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:34:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:35:38Z whoma is now known as whoman 2017-07-21T15:36:10Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:36:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:37:06Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:37:32Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:37:36Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:37:42Z schweers: thanks again to everyone here. I’m off on vacation which I can now really enjoy knowing that I fixed this annoying bug! 2017-07-21T15:37:56Z beach: Have a nice vacation! 2017-07-21T15:38:05Z schweers: thank you 2017-07-21T15:38:10Z schweers quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-21T15:39:16Z k42_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:39:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:40:01Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:41:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:41:38Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-21T15:42:14Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-07-21T15:43:05Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:45:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2017-07-21T15:46:23Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-21T15:46:46Z nosefouratyou joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:49:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:50:28Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:56:33Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T15:56:52Z teggi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T15:57:49Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T15:58:19Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:58:19Z knusbaum quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-21T15:58:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-21T15:58:56Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:01:34Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:03:28Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:04:03Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:05:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:07:16Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:08:21Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:11:19Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T16:25:04Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-21T16:26:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:37:37Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-21T16:38:58Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:44:22Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T16:49:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:50:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:51:27Z qwaszx joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:55:22Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-21T16:57:19Z trouble` joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:57:51Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-21T16:58:12Z trouble` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T16:58:29Z trouble` joined #lisp 2017-07-21T16:59:14Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T17:01:32Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T17:01:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:05:29Z trouble` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T17:05:41Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2017-07-21T17:05:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T17:08:19Z rumbler31: is there a way with usocket to see if there are more bytes available to be read on a datagram socket without blocking? 2017-07-21T17:09:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:09:54Z dlowe: call read on it 2017-07-21T17:09:56Z |||||||||||||||| quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-21T17:10:07Z dlowe: if it returns bytes, there were bytes available 2017-07-21T17:10:26Z rumbler31: i don't think you can call read on a datagram socket... 2017-07-21T17:10:28Z _death: usocket:wait-for-input with zero timeout? 2017-07-21T17:10:33Z dlowe: well. recv. 2017-07-21T17:10:47Z dlowe: You can call read(), but it doesn't give you the info that recv does 2017-07-21T17:12:30Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-21T17:13:29Z vimal2012 joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:13:46Z vimal2012 left #lisp 2017-07-21T17:16:35Z phoe: I think I'll ask again. 2017-07-21T17:16:36Z phoe: Lisp test framework question. Is there anything in Lisp that allows me to do stuff like http://paste.lisp.org/display/351234 ? 2017-07-21T17:16:43Z phoe: Basically - declare what a test case should do in terms of test steps, then define its implementation while marking the individual test steps, then use that information when displaying error information? 2017-07-21T17:17:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:17:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-21T17:17:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:24:19Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:27:05Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:27:57Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T17:37:05Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-21T17:37:54Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T17:38:09Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:39:14Z Shinmera: phoe: Parachute was designed to be extensible, so the answer is: in theory. 2017-07-21T17:39:39Z Shinmera: I don't particularly see the point in separating the description of what happens and its implementation, though? 2017-07-21T17:39:43Z dlowe: A simple matter of progra^H^H^H^H^H^Hextending 2017-07-21T17:39:49Z Shinmera: Yes :^) 2017-07-21T17:41:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-21T17:41:40Z phoe: Shinmera: I see such a point though. I want to export my test cases as HTML, and for this, I need a textual representation for them. 2017-07-21T17:42:12Z Shinmera: Still no need to separate, though. You can also mix the description and extract it. 2017-07-21T17:42:34Z Shinmera: Just walk some sexprs. 2017-07-21T17:42:53Z phoe: At this point I'm scared the test might become unreadable. 2017-07-21T17:43:04Z phoe: I'd rather separate the test case and the test implementation. 2017-07-21T17:43:10Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:43:32Z Shinmera: Aight I'll stop then. 2017-07-21T17:44:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T17:44:49Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-21T17:44:53Z maarhart_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:47:21Z maarhart_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-21T17:48:57Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:50:01Z phoe: I mean - no problem, this is doable using the same reader macros that I have in my example. Just stuff the test step description in the same place where the evaluated expression will be. 2017-07-21T17:50:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:50:18Z phoe: Except I' 2017-07-21T17:50:37Z phoe: Except I want to do it differently and store the description separately. 2017-07-21T17:50:45Z phoe looks up Parachute 2017-07-21T17:51:25Z rumbler31: usocket wait-for-input with :timeout 0 blocks on ccl on linux 2017-07-21T17:52:05Z phoe: rumbler31: do you have a test case that you can paste? 2017-07-21T17:52:25Z rumbler31: according to the docs, not specifiying a timeout blocks, specifiying a timeout will cause the call to return no later than the timeout, or a timeout of 0 should return immediately if no input is available. 2017-07-21T17:52:36Z rumbler31: lets see if I can make one. 2017-07-21T17:56:03Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-21T17:57:24Z rumbler31: oh 2017-07-21T17:58:10Z rumbler31: wait-for-input with no timeout is hanging as expected 2017-07-21T17:58:26Z rumbler31: wait-for-input with timeout is returning immedately, but is returning the socket I gave it, not nil 2017-07-21T17:58:47Z rumbler31: ok I think I see whats going on 2017-07-21T18:00:40Z qwaszx` joined #lisp 2017-07-21T18:01:41Z phoe: rumbler31: returning the socket you gave it? are you sure you checked that "fresh list" thing that WAIT-FOR-INPUT has? 2017-07-21T18:01:56Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T18:02:23Z rumbler31: I'm going senile. I just didn't focus while I was reading the description of the function. I see how to elicit the behavior I expect now 2017-07-21T18:04:18Z qwaszx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T18:06:23Z qwaszx` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T18:07:42Z bitch joined #lisp 2017-07-21T18:09:40Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T18:13:47Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T18:14:24Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-21T18:18:30Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T18:21:24Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-21T18:21:28Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-21T18:27:22Z rumbler31: is there a shortcut or config item for the slime inspector to default the slot view to "un-alphabetically 2017-07-21T18:27:24Z rumbler31: ? 2017-07-21T18:27:46Z nosefouratyou: I am getting this error dexador.error:http-request-forbidden and I don't understand what the period means between dexador and error. 2017-07-21T18:28:12Z TMA: nosefouratyou: it is just part of the package name 2017-07-21T18:28:14Z Bike: nothing. 2017-07-21T18:28:19Z Bike: the package is named "DEXADOR.ERROR" 2017-07-21T18:28:26Z nosefouratyou: TMA, Bike: thanks 2017-07-21T18:28:34Z Bike: i mean, it doesn't have a meaning to lisp, it might to a human reader. 2017-07-21T18:34:21Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T18:39:41Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T18:48:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-21T18:51:35Z tetero: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis - this is pretty cool 2017-07-21T18:55:35Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-21T18:57:12Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:00:06Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:00:52Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:04:34Z nosefouratyou: I have stuff like "0: #" when inspecting; is it possible to change the value of #x30200235235D to something readable? or is that a specific number generated to address it? 2017-07-21T19:04:48Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:04:59Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:05:59Z velo-alien quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T19:06:44Z Bike: nosefouratyou: it's an "identity". it's only intended to help a human reader, so it's okay to change. you can control how objects are printed by defining a method on print-object. 2017-07-21T19:07:15Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:09:29Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:09:56Z nosefouratyou: Bike: so I could write (print-object (o object) (format t "blah~%"))? 2017-07-21T19:10:02Z nosefouratyou: or should I not include newlines? 2017-07-21T19:10:15Z Bike: you should not include newlines. 2017-07-21T19:10:23Z nosefouratyou: Bike: okay, gotcha 2017-07-21T19:11:04Z Bike: it would be something like (defmethod print-object ((object instrument) stream) (print-unreadable-object (object stream) (format stream "blah"))) 2017-07-21T19:11:18Z Bike: er, :type t too. then you'd get # 2017-07-21T19:12:27Z nosefouratyou: Bike: thank you so much! 2017-07-21T19:14:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:14:57Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:21:30Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:32:27Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:37:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:41:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:41:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-21T19:41:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:41:57Z quotation_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:45:27Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:45:51Z rpg_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-21T19:47:29Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-07-21T19:51:22Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:52:35Z neoncontrails quit 2017-07-21T19:54:20Z nosefouratyou quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T19:58:24Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:00:21Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:00:57Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T20:01:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T20:06:21Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:06:42Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:11:27Z azrazalea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T20:12:36Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T20:18:44Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:21:18Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:21:44Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-21T20:21:58Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:22:44Z pjb: phoe: stakeholders NEVER write tests cases, even in English. This has been demonstrated by man.centuries of cucumber test writting done exclusively 100.000000000000% of the time by PROGRAMMERS. 2017-07-21T20:22:57Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T20:23:04Z pjb: So the question is why do you want to bother with English? Just write lisp! We're lisp lovers! 2017-07-21T20:23:29Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:25:00Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:27:01Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T20:28:10Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:28:41Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:30:31Z azrazalea quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T20:32:37Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:45:18Z joast joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:47:51Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2017-07-21T20:48:44Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T20:54:37Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-21T20:56:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-21T20:59:37Z derpicus joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:03:43Z raiden joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:03:48Z raiden is now known as slark 2017-07-21T21:09:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:12:27Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T21:15:30Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:21:29Z SpurdoSportster is now known as SpurdoSparde 2017-07-21T21:21:57Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T21:23:25Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:23:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T21:27:09Z Aaren_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:32:01Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-21T21:33:26Z alandipert joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:34:46Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:36:33Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-21T21:40:50Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:43:08Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-21T21:44:42Z quotation_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-21T21:48:36Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:54:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T21:54:52Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:55:11Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-21T21:55:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:01:01Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:01:46Z quotation_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:02:03Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:02:04Z quotation_ is now known as quotation 2017-07-21T22:06:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:09:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:12:03Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:13:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:19:49Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T22:20:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:24:54Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:24:54Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:26:55Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:28:06Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:28:13Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T22:29:00Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:32:09Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:33:38Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:37:59Z quotation: pjb: I'm entirely for deprecating the entirety of the english language if not wholly extending it further into a "special" dialect accompanying the flavors of homoiconicity 2017-07-21T22:43:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:45:03Z whoman: lambda english 2017-07-21T22:45:17Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-21T22:47:13Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:49:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:49:13Z slark: hello can someone explain why it works ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/351376 2017-07-21T22:49:47Z Bike: i uh, would not expect that to work. 2017-07-21T22:50:00Z slark: when i pass a variable to the macro it fails, but it works with a number can't really understand why it works 2017-07-21T22:50:51Z Bike: no, wait, yeah. 2017-07-21T22:51:00Z Bike: okay so you did everything wrong in such a way that it appears to work. 2017-07-21T22:51:08Z slark: Bike: well i know the macro def should be (list 'setq var (list '- var amount))) but well was just trying to mess a bit 2017-07-21T22:51:22Z Bike: right, so since you didn't do that, the macro /expander/ is what does the setq 2017-07-21T22:51:48Z Bike: and it sets var (not the symbol passed to the macro, var, every time) to (+ var amount) 2017-07-21T22:52:02Z Bike: and then returns that as the macroexpansion, because that's what setq returns. 2017-07-21T22:52:24Z slark: ohh indeed 2017-07-21T22:52:43Z slark: so it set the variable with the name "var" 2017-07-21T22:52:54Z slark: not the "var" parameter? 2017-07-21T22:53:01Z Bike: right. 2017-07-21T22:53:12Z Bike: because it's just a normal setq. 2017-07-21T22:54:19Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:56:44Z slark: Bike: .. macro is hard ;; 2017-07-21T22:57:10Z nosefouratyou joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:57:38Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T22:58:14Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:58:22Z pjb: slark: it sets the variable named VAR in the compilation environment! 2017-07-21T22:58:28Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-21T22:58:38Z slark: pjb: yeah i finally understood it 2017-07-21T22:58:48Z pjb: Since this variable has not been declared (in the compilation environment) the actual behavior is actually implementation dependent. 2017-07-21T22:59:04Z Bike: pjb: it's a parameter to the macro function 2017-07-21T22:59:17Z pjb: Oh, right. Sorry. 2017-07-21T22:59:42Z pjb: It's late… 2017-07-21T23:00:15Z slark: well in fact was thinking why should i return an expression to inc a variable when the inc could be done at expansion time 2017-07-21T23:01:09Z pjb: Because expansion time is normally done at compilation time, long before the values of the arguments are known. 2017-07-21T23:01:33Z slark: indeed 2017-07-21T23:02:07Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-21T23:06:55Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-21T23:10:27Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-21T23:13:25Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:20:12Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-21T23:20:48Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:26:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:26:55Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-21T23:27:20Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-21T23:32:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:39:57Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:40:57Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:41:28Z azzamsa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:46:25Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-21T23:50:19Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:56:42Z Hol joined #lisp 2017-07-21T23:56:44Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T23:58:07Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-21T23:59:29Z rneco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T23:59:37Z derpicus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T00:02:43Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:04:05Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:11:42Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:12:12Z deep-book-gk_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-22T00:19:43Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T00:21:27Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:22:46Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:23:51Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-22T00:26:22Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:26:28Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:28:24Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:28:34Z deep-book-gk_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-22T00:35:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:41:11Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:45:50Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:46:36Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T00:47:33Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-22T00:50:15Z aptenodyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T00:53:17Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:53:24Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-22T00:55:48Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-22T00:58:05Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-22T00:58:30Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-22T01:02:29Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T01:06:22Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T01:06:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T01:11:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-22T01:13:12Z azzamsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T01:22:44Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T01:27:24Z Aaren_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T01:31:19Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-22T01:36:58Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-22T01:37:19Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-22T01:43:29Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T01:46:05Z Hol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T01:58:19Z slark quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-22T02:02:26Z warweasle1 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T02:04:59Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-22T02:05:47Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T02:07:58Z warweasle1 is now known as warweasle 2017-07-22T02:14:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T02:16:03Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T02:17:36Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T02:22:40Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-22T02:23:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T02:46:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T02:46:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T02:47:40Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T02:49:53Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T02:50:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T02:51:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T02:57:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T03:12:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:15:20Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:20:43Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:25:18Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T03:25:50Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:29:55Z keviv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:30:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:31:19Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:32:35Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:35:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T03:35:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:35:52Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:36:50Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T03:38:16Z sfa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-22T03:40:21Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:41:04Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:43:58Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:45:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T03:45:36Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:45:50Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:48:13Z alandipert quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:49:14Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:50:40Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:54:53Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T03:55:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:55:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T03:55:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T03:59:45Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:00:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T04:01:12Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:03:45Z alandipert joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:05:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T04:05:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:10:08Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T04:13:21Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:15:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T04:15:53Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:19:02Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-22T04:25:18Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T04:25:54Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:26:23Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:35:23Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T04:35:54Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:43:37Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T04:45:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T04:45:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:53:49Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T04:55:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T04:55:25Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T04:55:52Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:01:00Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:04:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:05:00Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T05:05:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T05:05:50Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:08:17Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:11:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:11:56Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-22T05:12:45Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:13:05Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:15:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T05:15:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:23:55Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:24:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:25:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T05:25:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:28:27Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:35:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T05:35:53Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:39:27Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T05:40:05Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:44:53Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:45:18Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T05:45:50Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:48:21Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T05:49:08Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:50:36Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:51:01Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:52:17Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:55:25Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T05:55:51Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T05:56:04Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-22T06:05:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T06:05:50Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:11:49Z marvin3 quit 2017-07-22T06:14:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T06:15:18Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T06:15:54Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:19:29Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T06:22:29Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:24:28Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:29:12Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T06:35:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T06:37:26Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T06:38:38Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:40:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:42:41Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:44:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T06:47:04Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T06:50:27Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T06:53:05Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:54:14Z nocaberi joined #lisp 2017-07-22T06:54:26Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T06:56:09Z nocaberi is now known as Bock 2017-07-22T07:00:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:02:35Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T07:07:13Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T07:07:25Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:07:43Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-22T07:08:52Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T07:14:32Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:15:26Z Murii quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T07:40:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:42:55Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:43:57Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:45:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T07:46:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:47:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T07:49:07Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T07:53:26Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T08:02:12Z ykm joined #lisp 2017-07-22T08:03:32Z ykm left #lisp 2017-07-22T08:24:02Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-22T08:24:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T08:35:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T08:35:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-22T08:38:49Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T08:48:19Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T08:49:39Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T08:50:23Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T08:53:58Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T08:55:28Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-22T08:56:38Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T08:57:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:01:44Z jack_rabbit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T09:02:35Z k42_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:09:43Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:11:55Z k42_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:12:14Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:18:06Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:21:28Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:32:19Z malice quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T09:36:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:38:40Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:39:08Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:40:22Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:41:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:44:08Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:46:20Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:47:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:51:13Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T09:53:19Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:55:34Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:01:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:02:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:05:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:08:12Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:08:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:10:18Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:12:08Z axion: Hi beach. How are you? 2017-07-22T10:13:32Z axion: I'm looking for help in a basic task I'm trying to do as efficiently as I can. 2017-07-22T10:13:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T10:14:41Z phoe: axion: post it up 2017-07-22T10:14:43Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351414 2017-07-22T10:14:51Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:14:56Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:15:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:16:46Z |3b| would just sort list then split result 2017-07-22T10:18:39Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-22T10:18:46Z phoe: sort list then destructively split it 2017-07-22T10:19:27Z axion: Is there a common 'split' function or should I look to build one? 2017-07-22T10:19:30Z phoe: or alternatingly push into two accumulator lists, then nreverse them 2017-07-22T10:19:37Z phoe: axion: that's a good question 2017-07-22T10:19:41Z |3b| probably wouldn't even bother with destructive split 2017-07-22T10:20:06Z phoe: |3b|: he wants efficience, I think destructive splitting of conses is going to be as efficient as he can get it 2017-07-22T10:20:16Z phoe: performance- and consing-wise 2017-07-22T10:20:38Z |3b|: yeah, i was including programmer efficieny as well :) 2017-07-22T10:20:40Z gremly quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:20:46Z axion: How would you efficiently split a list? 2017-07-22T10:20:54Z axion: haha 2017-07-22T10:21:08Z phoe: if you want programmer effiicience, alternatingly push into two lists, then nreverse them 2017-07-22T10:21:20Z phoe: if you want fastest possible code, I think I have a possible algorithm in my mind 2017-07-22T10:21:40Z |3b|: (loop for (a b) on (sort ...) by #'cddr collect a into as when b collect b into bs finally (return (list as bs))) 2017-07-22T10:21:45Z axion: Doesn't have to be 'fastest possible' but this will occur with every page load, so milliseconds count. 2017-07-22T10:21:53Z phoe: axion: how long are the lists? 2017-07-22T10:21:58Z phoe: how many elements are there? 2017-07-22T10:21:58Z jackdaniel: axion: use uiop:while-collecting (or even better - cmuutil collect macro) 2017-07-22T10:22:02Z axion: Meh, 50-100 at most 2017-07-22T10:22:10Z jackdaniel: that's performance-best choice for both metrics 2017-07-22T10:22:18Z |3b|: actually, "most efficient" in that sense would probably be "cache it" :p 2017-07-22T10:22:21Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:22:28Z phoe: yes, are the lists dynamic? 2017-07-22T10:22:38Z axion: Yeah they are pretty dynamic 2017-07-22T10:23:10Z |3b|: even then, cache when they change rather than on access might win unless they changee more than they are read 2017-07-22T10:23:11Z jackdaniel: because it doesn't cons unnecessarily, doesn't reverse and keeps pointer to the list end 2017-07-22T10:23:58Z jackdaniel: oh, sorry, uiop:while-collecting does a lot of things, I'd go with cmuutil collect macro after all 2017-07-22T10:24:22Z |3b| also notes that the performance loss from non-destructive split probably wouldn't show up on that page load anyway :p 2017-07-22T10:24:46Z |3b|: (which admittedly isn't a very good argument in favor of it) 2017-07-22T10:25:03Z axion: Yeah, I don't need this to be 'fastest possible'. Just not 'slowest possible'. 2017-07-22T10:25:26Z axion: I am not trying to introduce bottlenecks when I scale this larger 2017-07-22T10:25:52Z phoe: my algorithm: grab references to 1st and 2nd cons of the list. set the CDR of the first cons to the 3rd cons, set the CDR of the first cons to the CDDDR of the first cons, set the CDR of the second cons to the CDDDR of the second cons. Use the CDRs of the first and second cons as the new values for the first and second cons, loop until the CDRs of the lists are NIL. 2017-07-22T10:26:20Z gremly joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:26:50Z axion: The simplest code can be continually made 'fastest possible' over a lifetime for a programmer. I should have known better to phrase that a bit better 2017-07-22T10:27:48Z axion: Thanks 2017-07-22T10:28:17Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:29:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:29:44Z phoe: Let me write a PoC of that 2017-07-22T10:29:47Z beach: axion: I am fine thanks :) 2017-07-22T10:30:04Z beach: But that's off topic. :) 2017-07-22T10:30:16Z |3b|: loop/collect version sorts/splits the symbols from CL: in a little over 1.6 million cycles 2017-07-22T10:30:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:30:45Z |3b|: or 0.000000 seconds 2017-07-22T10:31:19Z axion: How do I use sort to case-insensitively sort? 2017-07-22T10:31:35Z |3b|: clhs string-lessp 2017-07-22T10:31:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm 2017-07-22T10:32:15Z axion: Great 2017-07-22T10:33:12Z axion: beach: So is a lot of things here, such as algorithm efficiency and Emacs buffer data structures being a bad data structure for their use :) 2017-07-22T10:33:39Z phoe: axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351414#1 2017-07-22T10:34:26Z axion: Thanks for all the suggestions! 2017-07-22T10:34:34Z phoe: this splits the list into (1 3 5 7 9) (2 4 6 8 0) 2017-07-22T10:34:43Z phoe: destructively. 2017-07-22T10:37:17Z d4ryus1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-22T10:37:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:37:39Z axion: |3b|: some minor problems with your implementation, but nothing big 2017-07-22T10:38:21Z |3b| just typed it into IRC without testing, what did i miss? 2017-07-22T10:39:32Z axion: I guess there's nothing wrong with it really. I just didn't expect a 2 element list of NIL's if given an initiallly empty list 2017-07-22T10:40:14Z |3b|: yeah, i guess problem is underspecified for that case :) 2017-07-22T10:40:26Z axion: |3b|: What is the point of the WHEN clause? I don't see when it would change anything 2017-07-22T10:40:37Z |3b|: splitting empty list into 2 empty lists sounds reasonable to me though :) 2017-07-22T10:40:59Z |3b|: with odd number of elements you'd get an extra nil at end of 2nd list 2017-07-22T10:41:14Z axion: That's not the case for me 2017-07-22T10:41:24Z axion: oh yeah. repl out of sync 2017-07-22T10:41:27Z axion: Ignore me 2017-07-22T10:41:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:46:24Z |3b|: about 1/3 second to run on all symbols in my image, ~330k 2017-07-22T10:46:59Z |3b|: (well, all symbols iterated by do-symbols) 2017-07-22T10:46:59Z Oladon1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T10:47:15Z axion: phoe's implementation is extremely fast, but I was expecting that keeping a reference to tail 2017-07-22T10:47:25Z |3b|: but with lots of duplicates 2017-07-22T10:48:10Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:48:16Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-22T10:48:30Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:49:37Z |3b|: and looks like almost all of that is spent sorting 2017-07-22T10:49:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:51:51Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T10:56:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T11:01:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:01:36Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:02:43Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T11:04:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T11:08:23Z aceluck quit 2017-07-22T11:14:06Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T11:15:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:18:54Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:25:49Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-22T11:26:54Z madmalik joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:27:40Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:31:19Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:32:52Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T11:33:03Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-07-22T11:34:43Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-22T11:51:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T11:51:19Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T11:51:57Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:52:54Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T11:56:34Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T11:57:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:01:33Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-22T12:12:09Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:14:57Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-22T12:16:11Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:18:31Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:20:11Z yeticry_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T12:21:32Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:21:49Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:23:00Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T12:24:26Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:25:25Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:27:50Z beach joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:30:02Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:32:16Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:33:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-22T12:37:52Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-22T12:40:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:44:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:49:35Z poorbean joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:51:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:53:14Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:53:38Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T12:56:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:57:30Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:58:16Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T13:00:22Z rk[ghost]: equivalent of assoc with strings instead of symbols? 2017-07-22T13:01:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:01:39Z poorbean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T13:01:39Z shka_: rk[ghost]: pass equal as test 2017-07-22T13:01:59Z phoe: shka_: string= 2017-07-22T13:02:11Z phoe: if only strings are taken into account here 2017-07-22T13:02:16Z shka_: axion: if you care that much about performance, use vector instead of list 2017-07-22T13:02:25Z shka_: sorting lisp is exactly fast 2017-07-22T13:02:30Z shka_: *list 2017-07-22T13:02:39Z shka_: phoe: ok, string= will do 2017-07-22T13:03:09Z shka_: is not 2017-07-22T13:03:20Z shka_: sorting list if not exactly fast :P 2017-07-22T13:03:24Z shka_: here we go 2017-07-22T13:04:13Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:05:11Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T13:06:47Z rk[ghost]: ah! you can past a test in to assoc, excellent 2017-07-22T13:06:56Z shka_: yup 2017-07-22T13:07:02Z rk[ghost]: shka_: phoe: thaaanks! 2017-07-22T13:07:08Z shka_: you are welcome 2017-07-22T13:07:12Z shka_: happy programming 2017-07-22T13:07:16Z rk[ghost]: quite a sensible implementation to allow test passing 2017-07-22T13:07:18Z rk[ghost]: aye thanks. 2017-07-22T13:07:26Z rk[ghost] starts whistleing 2017-07-22T13:07:35Z shka_: oh, most of those functions accept :test 2017-07-22T13:07:42Z shka_: find, remove, etc. 2017-07-22T13:07:43Z rk[ghost]: good to know:) 2017-07-22T13:08:05Z shka_: ok, good luck 2017-07-22T13:08:08Z rk[ghost]: doh, i am always so unaware of the gigantic library of CL 2017-07-22T13:08:14Z rk[ghost]: i end up implementing so many things myself -.- 2017-07-22T13:08:23Z shka_: it is not that gigantic to be honest 2017-07-22T13:08:44Z rk[ghost]: sure, but my head keeps thinking all i have is lisp 1.5 2017-07-22T13:08:53Z shka_: in fact it can be considered quite small when compared to other languages nowdays 2017-07-22T13:09:05Z shka_: i see 2017-07-22T13:09:20Z rk[ghost]: maybe so. but even something like nth it is taking me a while to be like, use that and quit doing strange caaaddars.. 2017-07-22T13:09:37Z shka_: hehe 2017-07-22T13:10:01Z shka_: well, honestly i'm also using stuff like cdaadr 2017-07-22T13:10:12Z shka_: not proud of it, though :D 2017-07-22T13:10:16Z rk[ghost]: =P 2017-07-22T13:10:30Z shka_: usually, destructuring-bind is great 2017-07-22T13:10:32Z rk[ghost]: i find it difficult that CL has many ways to go about stuff 2017-07-22T13:10:51Z shka_: oh, well, it certainly has 2017-07-22T13:11:00Z shka_: anyway, I'm going afk now 2017-07-22T13:11:07Z shka_: glad we could help you :-) 2017-07-22T13:11:08Z rk[ghost]: i find i spend more time trying to decide how fancy to be about a solution rather than just solving it and moving on. 2017-07-22T13:11:15Z rk[ghost]: aye, thanks again. 2017-07-22T13:14:41Z rk[ghost]: it would probably suit me to spend a few days reading the common lisp hyperspec more or reading others code more than programming.. as it seems like every day i come across a new library function which implements something i already spent time implementing by hand. 2017-07-22T13:16:54Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:21:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:24:22Z pjb: rk[ghost]: notice that: (let* ((k1 "k1") (k2 "k2") (a (acons k1 1 (acons k2 2 nil)))) (assoc k2 a)) #| --> ("k2" . 2) |# works perfectly with strings and without :test. 2017-07-22T13:26:12Z pjb: rk[ghost]: on the other hand: (assoc :foo '((bar . 1) (foo . 2))) #| --> nil |# doesn't work as you expect without :test! (assoc :foo '((bar . 1) (foo . 2)) :test (function string=)) #| --> (foo . 2) |# 2017-07-22T13:26:24Z pjb: rk[ghost]: it's not a matter of string or not string! 2017-07-22T13:28:28Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T13:31:24Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:34:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T13:35:41Z axion: shka_: It doesn't make much sense to use an intermediary vector when the input and output must be a list as mentioned 2017-07-22T13:46:27Z shka_: axion: right 2017-07-22T13:50:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:51:59Z rk[ghost]: pjb: aye. thanks. looking in to it, i built my list as [key . object]s 2017-07-22T13:52:52Z rk[ghost]: anyhoot, :test #'string= solves my issue! :) 2017-07-22T13:54:21Z rk[ghost]: and helpful, because now i can make a fuzzy assoc with using search 2017-07-22T13:54:22Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:54:39Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T13:58:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T13:58:53Z shka_: well 2017-07-22T13:59:13Z shka_: eh, whatever 2017-07-22T14:01:34Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:02:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:04:23Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T14:17:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:21:18Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:21:31Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T14:25:42Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:29:23Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T14:33:35Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T14:47:10Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:47:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:47:28Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:55:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T14:58:59Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T14:59:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T15:31:02Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-07-22T15:32:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T15:34:01Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T15:37:48Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-22T15:38:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T15:40:21Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T15:42:57Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T15:49:30Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-22T15:56:16Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T16:11:09Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T16:11:58Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-22T16:16:19Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-22T16:32:36Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T16:44:53Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-22T16:45:09Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-22T16:53:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-22T16:53:29Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T16:53:37Z Ven is now known as Guest13273 2017-07-22T16:56:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T16:59:42Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:00:16Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:02:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T17:04:27Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T17:06:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:06:42Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T17:07:20Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:09:55Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:10:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T17:11:35Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T17:12:03Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T17:18:16Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:28:53Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:29:32Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T17:30:03Z mikaelj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T17:30:11Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-22T17:31:03Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:31:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T17:37:08Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T17:45:15Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:46:41Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T17:47:02Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-22T17:56:13Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T17:59:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:03:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T18:05:54Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T18:06:30Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:18:35Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T18:19:08Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:20:04Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:21:50Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T18:24:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T18:30:26Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:31:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T18:31:34Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:34:17Z nirved quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T18:38:57Z Guest13273 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T18:43:13Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:46:01Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:47:08Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:48:12Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:50:09Z flip214: When the accessor functions for a class are in a different package, is there a shorter way than the 2-symbols-version of WITH-ACCESSORS to map them to symbols in the local package? 2017-07-22T18:50:35Z Bike: nope 2017-07-22T18:50:39Z flip214: Ie. (WITH-ACCESSORS ((accessor other-package:accessor) ...) object ...) 2017-07-22T18:50:45Z Bike: with-accessors doesnt know anything about packages 2017-07-22T18:50:50Z flip214: to not duplicate "accessor"? 2017-07-22T18:51:09Z flip214: so, if I really needed that, I'd need to write a macro.... 2017-07-22T18:51:22Z flip214: but for a single use (even with 9 lines) it won't be an improvement 2017-07-22T18:51:23Z flip214: thanks 2017-07-22T18:54:06Z pjb: Macros should be written for abstractions, not for textual substitutions. 2017-07-22T18:54:14Z pjb: You can always import the symbols! 2017-07-22T18:56:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-22T18:57:10Z Ven is now known as Guest6808 2017-07-22T18:59:13Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T18:59:38Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:00:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:04:07Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T19:06:26Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T19:09:30Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:16:25Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T19:20:28Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:23:07Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:27:14Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T19:27:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:28:05Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:28:08Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T19:31:07Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T19:32:28Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T19:36:47Z hvxgr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T19:39:14Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T19:43:56Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T19:49:04Z xaotuk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T19:50:17Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:51:03Z Patzy joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:54:02Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:56:53Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-22T19:58:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T19:59:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:07:58Z Guest54503 is now known as Vivek 2017-07-22T20:08:12Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:08:27Z Vivek is now known as Guest47537 2017-07-22T20:11:34Z Guest47537 is now known as Vivek 2017-07-22T20:11:48Z Vivek quit (Changing host) 2017-07-22T20:11:49Z Vivek joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:13:20Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T20:18:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T20:19:04Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:19:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:27:04Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T20:27:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T20:28:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T20:29:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:37:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:37:49Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T20:42:23Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:44:16Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T20:45:24Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:47:26Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-22T20:50:44Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T20:51:54Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T20:58:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T20:59:12Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:03:55Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:04:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:04:42Z alandipert: is a hash table with T as vals an idiomatic way to represent a set? 2017-07-22T21:04:43Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:04:59Z Bike: it's not uncommon. a "hash set". 2017-07-22T21:05:51Z White_Flame: you could also store the key as the value, handy in some cases 2017-07-22T21:07:04Z alandipert: thanks 2017-07-22T21:07:46Z Shinmera: If your set is small enough, a list and pushnew works just fine too. 2017-07-22T21:08:04Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T21:08:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T21:09:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:09:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T21:11:00Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:15:35Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-22T21:15:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:18:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T21:19:12Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:21:35Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T21:23:37Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-22T21:23:52Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T21:28:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:28:12Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-22T21:28:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T21:29:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:29:36Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:30:17Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:33:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T21:38:43Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T21:39:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:42:07Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:43:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:44:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:48:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T21:55:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T21:58:59Z Posterdati: hi 2017-07-22T21:59:44Z Posterdati: please I've got this error quickloading iolib/syscalls on armhf: ondition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR 2017-07-22T21:59:44Z Posterdati: [22:30:34] `(VECTOR ,SI::ELT-TYPE (,LENGTH)) is not a valid type specifier. 2017-07-22T22:00:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:00:10Z Posterdati: any hints? Thanks for help 2017-07-22T22:00:36Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:01:01Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T22:02:46Z Bike: Posterdati: looks like you expected a type specifier to be evaluated, but it wasn't 2017-07-22T22:02:47Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:03:02Z Bike: or the library did 2017-07-22T22:03:21Z Posterdati: the error came up when loading iolib/syscalls 2017-07-22T22:04:51Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:05:13Z Posterdati: the funny thing is that I have another raspberry pi 3 with a cloned sdcard wich works 2017-07-22T22:06:18Z chens`` joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:06:18Z chens` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T22:16:59Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T22:18:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T22:19:08Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:21:22Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:25:13Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:25:34Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:28:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T22:29:11Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:29:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:33:20Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:35:47Z Guest6808 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-22T22:36:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:38:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T22:39:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:39:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:39:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-22T22:39:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:39:27Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:40:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:40:41Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T22:44:00Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:44:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:45:28Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:47:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:47:50Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:48:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:48:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T22:48:50Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-22T22:49:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:49:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T22:52:02Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:52:52Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T22:54:33Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-22T22:56:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:58:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T22:58:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T22:59:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:01:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T23:03:14Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:07:49Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:08:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T23:09:20Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:18:50Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T23:19:18Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:24:00Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T23:28:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T23:29:20Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:31:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:34:55Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-22T23:38:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T23:39:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:43:05Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T23:48:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T23:49:18Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:50:15Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:53:20Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-22T23:57:24Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-22T23:58:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-22T23:58:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T23:59:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:00:24Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:01:47Z arquebus joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:03:14Z arquebus quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-23T00:03:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T00:08:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T00:09:22Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:09:23Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:14:44Z ryanwatk` joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:15:10Z ryanwatkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T00:18:14Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:18:40Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:18:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T00:19:05Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T00:19:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:22:22Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-23T00:28:27Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T00:28:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T00:29:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:31:59Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:33:37Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T00:34:12Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:38:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T00:39:22Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:45:24Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T00:48:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T00:49:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:50:28Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:53:02Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-23T00:54:15Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-23T00:56:59Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:58:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T00:59:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T00:59:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:05:00Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T01:08:43Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T01:09:20Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:09:47Z ryanwatk` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T01:10:23Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:16:22Z broccolistem quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-23T01:18:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T01:19:21Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:19:39Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:23:57Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-23T01:25:25Z ryanwatk` joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:27:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T01:28:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T01:29:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:34:50Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:38:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T01:39:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:41:41Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T01:45:07Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:45:24Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T01:46:33Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:46:35Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-23T01:48:43Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T01:49:39Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:58:33Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-23T01:58:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T01:59:17Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T02:00:54Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-23T02:01:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T02:05:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T02:08:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T02:09:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T02:15:07Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T02:22:28Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T02:27:52Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T02:29:26Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T02:42:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-23T02:53:19Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-23T02:56:53Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-23T03:02:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T03:04:42Z teggi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T03:05:49Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-23T03:08:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T03:24:26Z ejohnson joined #lisp 2017-07-23T03:29:34Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T03:30:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-23T03:30:58Z whoman: good evening beach =) 2017-07-23T03:33:13Z ejohnson: Has anyone delt with float length limitations on FLOOR and CEILING? For instance (= (ceiling 111.000001) (floor 111.000001)). Using SBCL "1.3.19.122-3383977aa" on a x86_64 linux install. 2017-07-23T03:33:17Z ejohnson: hi beach 2017-07-23T03:34:03Z beach: ejohnson: Long time no see. 2017-07-23T03:34:17Z ejohnson: beach: yes. How are you and life in Fr? 2017-07-23T03:34:31Z beach: Very well thank you. Where are you these days? 2017-07-23T03:34:47Z ejohnson: Central California. Got married and moved back to the valley. 2017-07-23T03:35:04Z beach: Nice. Except for the fires perhaps? 2017-07-23T03:35:16Z ejohnson: True, very hazy around this time of year. 2017-07-23T03:35:40Z ejohnson: We have some of the worst air quality in the US (#2), so yeah it's always bad. 2017-07-23T03:35:53Z beach: Oh, sorry to hear that. 2017-07-23T03:36:02Z Bike: ejohnson: that sounds like general floating-point-ness than anything to do with floor and ceiling particularly 2017-07-23T03:36:17Z ejohnson: Bike: yes. Any ideas on work arounds? 2017-07-23T03:36:34Z ejohnson: beach: thanks, I try not to contribute as much as I can. 2017-07-23T03:37:04Z ejohnson: beach: I've seen how McClim is moving forward. Nice to see that happening. 2017-07-23T03:37:34Z beach: Yes, very exciting. We have the #clim IRC channel now and jackdaniel is going a great job with maintaining it. 2017-07-23T03:38:02Z holycow: oh! 2017-07-23T03:38:07Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-23T03:38:09Z holycow: huh didn't know. checking it out. 2017-07-23T03:38:21Z holycow: thx for heads up 2017-07-23T03:38:24Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-23T03:39:15Z ejohnson: beach: that is cool! 2017-07-23T03:40:32Z beach: ejohnson: Yes, and I am working on Second Climacs, which will have much better support for editing Common Lisp code. 2017-07-23T03:41:24Z whoman: beach, yeah!! 2017-07-23T03:41:25Z ejohnson: I'm excited to hear that. I'd love to check it out. 2017-07-23T03:41:35Z beach: You'll have to wait. 2017-07-23T03:41:45Z ejohnson: haha, of course :) 2017-07-23T03:42:33Z Bike: ejohnson: depends on the context, i guess. number one: use doubles instead of singles 2017-07-23T03:43:44Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-23T03:43:53Z ejohnson: Bike: I'm trying to write something a little more flexible than typed information. I actually have an solution that avoids the whole floor/ceiling thing. Thanks for the suggestion though. 2017-07-23T03:45:33Z beach: ejohnson: It is entirely possible that the last digit disappears when such a number is read using a float format with not enough precision. 2017-07-23T03:45:35Z Bike: "typed information"....? well, as long as you got something 2017-07-23T03:46:40Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T03:47:55Z beach: ejohnson: So in fact, when the number is read, it just turns into 111.0 2017-07-23T03:48:09Z beach: It is not a problem with floor and ceiling. 2017-07-23T03:48:25Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T03:48:55Z beach: It just so happens that 111.0 is the closest possible approximation in single-float precision of 111.000001. 2017-07-23T03:49:29Z ejohnson: beach: Sounds probable. 2017-07-23T03:50:20Z beach: ejohnson: It is. Try (= 111.000001 111.0). 2017-07-23T03:51:47Z beach: ejohnson: If you do (= (ceiling 111.000001d0) (floor 111.000001d0)) instead, your problem goes away. 2017-07-23T03:51:49Z ejohnson: looks like the issue. Luckily I've been able to side step the entire problem :) 2017-07-23T03:52:01Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-23T03:52:08Z ejohnson: beach: thanks! 2017-07-23T03:52:23Z beach: Anytime. :) 2017-07-23T03:57:27Z beach: For the people here with long-term memory problems, ejohnson worked on (first) Climacs and Drei. 2017-07-23T03:59:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-23T04:00:47Z beach: ejohnson: Since you were active here, ELS (the European Lisp Symposium) has become a successful annual event with almost 100 participants each year. 2017-07-23T04:01:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-23T04:01:17Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T04:01:39Z beach: ejohnson: The number of paper submissions has also increased over the years, improving overall quality. Next year, it will be in Marbella in Spain, where Ravenpack has its headquarters. 2017-07-23T04:02:13Z aeth: ejohnson: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) 2017-07-23T04:02:26Z beach: ejohnson: What kind of work in Common Lisp are you doing these days? 2017-07-23T04:02:41Z aeth: ejohnson: But I generally hardcode f0 and d0 when I want a specific kind of float, e.g. 4.0f0 or 4.0d0 2017-07-23T04:03:32Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T04:04:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-23T04:04:10Z ejohnson: beach: I worked for Franz from 2009 until 2011. Mainly working on hobby stuff atm 2017-07-23T04:04:24Z ejohnson: excuse me, until 2014 2017-07-23T04:04:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T04:04:41Z beach: Wow. Did I know that and forgot? 2017-07-23T04:05:19Z ejohnson: beach: not sure. I worked mostly with Ahmon and Kevin. Andreas came on board then took off to stripe while I was there. 2017-07-23T04:05:34Z ejohnson: Had the chance to work with a lot better programmers than I. Great experience. 2017-07-23T04:05:43Z beach: I can imagine. 2017-07-23T04:07:19Z ejohnson: beach: it was a lot of fun working on climacs way back when. That's one of the first projects I contributed to. Thanks again. 2017-07-23T04:07:50Z beach: It was definitely a lot of fun. 2017-07-23T04:08:36Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T04:09:17Z beach: I think we (me, mostly) made some mistakes with (first) Climacs, but I also think that is inevitable with the first attempt at something like that. 2017-07-23T04:09:20Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T04:10:14Z beach: Second Climacs is the result of thinking about all those mistakes, and generally about possible improvements. 2017-07-23T04:10:37Z ejohnson: beach: how was ELS this year? I've been following some of the ongoings from afar, but have been out of the CL world for a while now. 2017-07-23T04:10:48Z ejohnson: beach: Second Climacs, hahaha 2017-07-23T04:10:52Z beach: :) 2017-07-23T04:11:35Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T04:11:40Z beach: ELS was great as usual. This year, it was co-located with a bigger event, which meant that the local arrangements were not as good as they were in the past, but the conference itself was very good. 2017-07-23T04:12:08Z beach: student cafeteria compared to a great local caterer last year. 2017-07-23T04:12:52Z beach: I am counting on Nick Levine of Ravenpack to correct that problem in Marbella next year. :) 2017-07-23T04:13:31Z beach: ejohnson: By the way, Ravenpack is hiring Common Lisp programmers in case you would like to go to a great country in the EU for a change. :) 2017-07-23T04:15:21Z beach: ejohnson: Step one would be to show up at ELS, though. Then you can see for yourself. :) 2017-07-23T04:17:53Z ejohnson: beach: sounds like fun. I'm in a whole different field of work since I've moved. Thanks for thinking I'm on ravenpack level. They are a great team of coders. 2017-07-23T04:18:26Z ejohnson: beach: but the idea of moving to the EU would be just about the only thing that could tear me away from winemaking :) 2017-07-23T04:18:52Z beach: Oh, is that what you are doing? 2017-07-23T04:19:11Z beach: Spain makes great wine. 2017-07-23T04:19:28Z ejohnson: yes, for the last 3 years. We're gearing up for harvest now... haha yes :) 2017-07-23T04:19:34Z beach: You probably know more about Ravenpack than I do. Perhaps they are Allegro customers? 2017-07-23T04:19:56Z beach: ejohnson: Congratulations! 2017-07-23T04:20:02Z ejohnson: We worked with them, but I didn't much directly. 2017-07-23T04:21:16Z ejohnson: I did work at Franz when Gabor was there though, so I probably have worked with the team a bit. 2017-07-23T04:21:16Z beach: Anyway, April/May is slow in the winemaking business, right? So you should come to ELS! 2017-07-23T04:21:45Z ejohnson: Haha, yeah that would be fun. Where is it this year? 2017-07-23T04:21:51Z ejohnson: err next year :) 2017-07-23T04:21:52Z beach: Marbella. 2017-07-23T04:22:00Z ejohnson: Ah, I missed that. 2017-07-23T04:22:01Z beach: Very near Morocco. :) 2017-07-23T04:22:34Z ejohnson: Definitely on my list of places to visit... you may have tempted me :) 2017-07-23T04:22:34Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T04:22:45Z beach: That was the purpose. :) 2017-07-23T04:22:53Z ejohnson: ;) 2017-07-23T04:22:59Z ludston: If only europe was closer to Sydney 2017-07-23T04:23:56Z beach: ludston: loke has wanted to see an ALS. He is in Singapore. Maybe you could join forces. I would show up and even submit a paper or two. 2017-07-23T04:24:59Z beach: ludston: There are some great locations for it: Singapore, Sidney, Melbourne, Sài Gòn, Auckland, ... 2017-07-23T04:25:38Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-23T04:25:50Z ludston: beach: Hmm, maybe. I wonder how many lisp programmers there are in SEA. 2017-07-23T04:26:37Z ludston: beach: There are certainly clojurists. https://www.meetup.com/en-AU/clj-syd/ 2017-07-23T04:26:37Z beach: ludston: Don't know. When I lived in Auckland, there were about 5 within a radius of a 3 hour flight. :) 2017-07-23T04:27:11Z beach: ludston: Ah, yes, that's a possibility. 2017-07-23T04:28:16Z beach: ludston: You too are welcome to come work in the EU. It is a bit more densely populated than Australia. :) 2017-07-23T04:28:35Z vtomole: ejohnson: The bay area has a lisp meetup right? 2017-07-23T04:28:48Z ejohnson: vtomole: yes balispers IIRC 2017-07-23T04:29:45Z ejohnson: I went to a couple meetups, some down in Redwood City with Warnock and a few other people... some in SF. 2017-07-23T04:30:02Z ejohnson: They seem a lot more organized now. Most of ours involved too much food and beers. 2017-07-23T04:30:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T04:31:53Z vtomole: Ah. Found it: https://www.meetup.com/balisp/ 2017-07-23T04:32:11Z beach: Hmm. Australia: 3.2/km². EU: 116.8/km² (according to Wikipedia) :) 2017-07-23T04:32:42Z ejohnson: vtomole: yes. I've seen some vidoes of their meetings posted online, might be worth a watch. 2017-07-23T04:33:07Z ejohnson: s/vidoes/videos/ 2017-07-23T04:34:52Z ludston: beach: If you are hiring, I'm vaguely interested. 2017-07-23T04:36:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T04:37:16Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-23T04:38:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-23T04:38:49Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T04:39:29Z ludston: beach: But maybe later. Moving to Spain isn't quite in the grand plan yet. 2017-07-23T04:41:15Z beach: ludston: I am not hiring, sorry. 2017-07-23T04:42:22Z ejohnson: Well I have an early Sunday tomorrow, so I'm signing off. Great talk to you all. 2017-07-23T04:42:34Z beach: ejohnson: Take care! 2017-07-23T04:42:35Z ejohnson: beach: I'll keep an eye out for 2nd climacs. 2017-07-23T04:42:39Z ejohnson: gnight 2017-07-23T04:42:44Z ejohnson left #lisp 2017-07-23T04:43:26Z ludston: beach: I see then that you are not with Ravenpack 2017-07-23T04:44:00Z holycow: bbl 2017-07-23T04:44:03Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-23T04:44:14Z beach: No, I am not. But I know Nick Levine, so I know they are hiring. 2017-07-23T04:47:10Z ludston: Looks like I'd need proof of a functional level of Spanish to get a working visa for Spain anyway 2017-07-23T04:48:02Z ludston: I guess that idea is in the bin. Haha 2017-07-23T04:48:38Z beach: Spain is not the only place in the EU of course. I just mentioned Spain because: 1. It's a great place. 2. ELS will be held there in 2018. 3. I know Ravenpack is hiring Lispers. 2017-07-23T04:50:49Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-23T04:57:42Z beach: ludston: And if you get a visa for the Schengen area, you can then move freely within the 26 members. 2017-07-23T05:01:04Z alandipert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T05:01:59Z alandipert joined #lisp 2017-07-23T05:03:57Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-23T05:05:04Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-23T05:06:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T05:10:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T05:32:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T05:35:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T05:35:15Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-23T05:41:05Z ryanwatk` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T05:42:46Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T06:01:54Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:02:03Z BW^-: anyone knows about the database "Intersystems Caché"? 2017-07-23T06:04:57Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T06:05:23Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:07:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:11:35Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T06:12:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T06:16:22Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T06:22:50Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:28:23Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:34:21Z nullman joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:34:59Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:47:07Z adolf_st_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T06:48:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-23T06:49:12Z jmarciano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T06:50:47Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T06:51:19Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:04:58Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T07:06:30Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:09:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:10:25Z shiranuidong quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T07:11:29Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:14:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T07:14:13Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T07:15:17Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:24:20Z madmalik joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:28:54Z nocaberi joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:30:14Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T07:30:43Z nocaberi is now known as Bock 2017-07-23T07:32:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:37:50Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-07-23T07:38:20Z jeremiah__ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:44:01Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:47:47Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:50:52Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T07:52:16Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T07:53:52Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:56:25Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T07:58:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T07:59:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:01:23Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:01:37Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:01:52Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:02:26Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:02:34Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:03:34Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:04:28Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:06:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:08:52Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:09:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:10:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:11:41Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:15:00Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:15:34Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T08:15:38Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:15:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:16:00Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:16:54Z pritvi joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:18:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:19:40Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:19:57Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:20:10Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:28:47Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:29:22Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:29:58Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:34:52Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:35:45Z happy_gnu quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:38:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T08:39:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:42:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:44:40Z happy_gnu joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:47:57Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:48:33Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T08:48:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:48:57Z pritvi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:49:57Z elazul joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:52:15Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T08:53:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:53:31Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T08:55:22Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-23T08:58:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:00:12Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:00:54Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T09:02:27Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:03:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:04:48Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-23T09:08:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T09:10:04Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T09:10:24Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:11:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:16:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T09:18:44Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T09:21:05Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:21:07Z beach: [sigh] Another library to extract, improve, document, and test. But that's a good thing I think. This time, it's from Gsharp. It splits a sequence into optimal subsequences. And it can do it incrementally as the original sequence is modified. 2017-07-23T09:24:25Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T09:33:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:42:25Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:42:42Z malice: Hi! Is there some way to see what methods can I apply to an object of a class? 2017-07-23T09:43:07Z malice: More precisely, my objective is to change one of the object's slots, but I don't really know what the interface is. 2017-07-23T09:43:10Z |3b|: slime inspector might give you some idea 2017-07-23T09:43:20Z malice: Yeah, I was inspecting the object atm 2017-07-23T09:44:45Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:44:45Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-23T09:44:45Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:46:40Z beach: mop specializer-direct-generic-functions 2017-07-23T09:46:40Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-generic-functions.html 2017-07-23T09:46:52Z beach: malice: ↑ 2017-07-23T09:47:24Z beach: malice: You don't apply methods. You apply (generic) functions. 2017-07-23T09:47:55Z beach: mop specializer-direct-methods 2017-07-23T09:47:55Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-methods.html 2017-07-23T09:48:55Z beach: malice: This one ↑ gives you a list of the methods that have a particular specializer. 2017-07-23T09:49:22Z beach: malice: It is not quite what you want though. 2017-07-23T09:49:38Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:49:57Z beach: Because a method might be applicable to a subclass that does not appear explicitly as a specializer. 2017-07-23T09:50:33Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T09:52:30Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-23T09:54:04Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T09:54:41Z malice: beach: Yes, I always forget about the nomenclature. I learned OOP first in C++, so I often call it methods (since there are no generic functions in C++). 2017-07-23T09:57:38Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T10:02:17Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:06:49Z malice: beach: I am sorry, but I am unable to find this information. How do I provide specializer? 2017-07-23T10:07:04Z malice: I tried (specializer-direct-generic-functions '((my-class))) but it does not work. 2017-07-23T10:08:51Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:09:04Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:13:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:15:16Z beach: clhs find-class 2017-07-23T10:15:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_c.htm 2017-07-23T10:15:56Z beach: You need to provide a class metaobject. The name of a class won't do. 2017-07-23T10:17:03Z beach: Also, this is MOP stuff, not Common Lisp HyperSpec stuff, so you will either need to :USE the MOP package, or provide an explicit package prefix. 2017-07-23T10:17:32Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:18:06Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T10:22:08Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T10:22:34Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:27:12Z beach: malice: Also, "it does not work" is not very helpful. It is best to provide the error message, or the incorrect output that you observe. 2017-07-23T10:30:07Z ludston quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T10:31:07Z malice: beach: sorry for being not verbose enough 2017-07-23T10:31:09Z malice: be 2017-07-23T10:31:26Z malice: beach: but I didn't really know what arguments to use. find-class was exactly what I needed. Thank you. 2017-07-23T10:31:36Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-23T10:32:06Z malice: If I want all the methods, should I also map the #'specializer-direct-generic-functions over all superclasses and their superclasses? 2017-07-23T10:32:16Z malice: all the generic functions* 2017-07-23T10:32:54Z beach: Maybe so. You can try class-precedence-list. 2017-07-23T10:34:02Z beach: mop class-precedence-list 2017-07-23T10:34:02Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-precedence-list.html 2017-07-23T10:34:13Z malice: Yes, that's not useful. 2017-07-23T10:34:21Z malice: It includes T 2017-07-23T10:34:38Z malice: I got a very long list of generic functions 2017-07-23T10:34:40Z beach: right. 2017-07-23T10:34:48Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T10:34:55Z malice: Anyway, this was very helpful. Thank you. 2017-07-23T10:35:44Z beach: Good luck. 2017-07-23T10:40:18Z malice: Thanks! 2017-07-23T10:40:50Z oleo: heh 2017-07-23T10:42:24Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:45:21Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T10:50:17Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:50:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-23T10:52:25Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T10:53:36Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T10:54:13Z rk[ghost]: err.. didn't someone in here have an open version of the CLHS? 2017-07-23T10:54:54Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-23T10:56:27Z shka_: rk[ghost]: phoe 2017-07-23T10:56:37Z shka_: phoe: ^^ 2017-07-23T10:56:39Z rk[ghost]: aye, is it searchable? 2017-07-23T10:56:51Z shka_: uhm, let me check 2017-07-23T10:56:55Z rk[ghost]: i probably have the link somewhere in my net histor.. but it is deep :P 2017-07-23T10:57:36Z shka_: it has search bar, not sure if it actually works 2017-07-23T10:57:49Z shka_: personally, I'm using zeal 2017-07-23T10:57:57Z shka_: which i can recommend 2017-07-23T10:59:09Z rk[ghost]: zeal, eh? 2017-07-23T10:59:19Z shka_: oh, sorry 2017-07-23T10:59:30Z shka_: not zeal 2017-07-23T10:59:31Z shka_: dash 2017-07-23T10:59:39Z shka_: but it is almost the same thing 2017-07-23T10:59:43Z shka_: https://github.com/areina/helm-dash 2017-07-23T11:00:16Z phoe: rk[ghost]: it's me 2017-07-23T11:00:33Z rk[ghost]: phoe: aye, i just recalled the name of your jazz 2017-07-23T11:00:38Z phoe: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php <- it has a search bar that somewhat works 2017-07-23T11:00:40Z rk[ghost]: and found the link i wanted 2017-07-23T11:01:11Z rk[ghost]: aye.. and it also has, a reasonable hyperlink schema.. so i can likely find what i want by mangling the url with the right fucntion name 2017-07-23T11:01:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:01:42Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:02:05Z rk[ghost]: i do not know any PHP (nor have any interest), but if you want any help with your project i could set aside some cycles.. 2017-07-23T11:02:25Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:03:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:03:44Z phoe: rk[ghost]: I will, thanks! I need to fix my real life up a bit more and then I'll probably get back to working on CLUS. 2017-07-23T11:03:57Z shka_: i don't think you even need to know PHP to work on that 2017-07-23T11:05:39Z phoe: ^ 2017-07-23T11:05:44Z phoe: just the displaying engine is PHP 2017-07-23T11:08:07Z rk[ghost]: ah, right-o:) 2017-07-23T11:08:36Z rk[ghost]: i am also at the point of fixing up my `real life`, but i should be migrating within a couple weeks and stablized within a month likely 2017-07-23T11:10:51Z rk[ghost]: OK.. back to programming what i needed the ultraspec for :P 2017-07-23T11:11:29Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:12:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:13:24Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T11:14:02Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:14:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:14:53Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:17:32Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:19:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:21:13Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:25:21Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:27:40Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T11:33:36Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T11:34:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:34:28Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:34:56Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:35:34Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T11:38:22Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:42:17Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:44:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T11:49:52Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:51:03Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:51:25Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:52:20Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T11:53:00Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2017-07-23T11:55:16Z sveit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:55:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T11:58:26Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:01:20Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:02:49Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:06:12Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-23T12:06:14Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2017-07-23T12:11:03Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-23T12:11:15Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:11:35Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:13:22Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:16:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:16:32Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:17:37Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:17:41Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:20:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:20:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:22:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:25:01Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:25:03Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-23T12:25:36Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:26:32Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:28:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:33:02Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T12:35:34Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:35:45Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:35:53Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:38:38Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:43:34Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:45:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:50:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:50:55Z mikaelj quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-23T12:51:49Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T12:55:36Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T12:55:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:58:38Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T13:00:52Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T13:01:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:06:16Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:16:49Z c__ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:17:10Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:17:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:19:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:21:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T13:22:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T13:30:31Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:31:21Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:34:45Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:35:14Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:38:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:43:43Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T13:45:35Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T13:46:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:51:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T13:52:45Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T13:57:05Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T13:57:27Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:00:25Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-23T14:01:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:02:39Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T14:02:56Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:03:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:05:17Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-23T14:07:29Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:13:51Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:19:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:22:55Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:24:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:26:28Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:26:55Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:28:43Z ryanwatkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T14:31:15Z c__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T14:31:25Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:37:42Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:39:34Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-23T14:40:48Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:42:39Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:43:46Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:53:21Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:55:03Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:56:11Z maarhart_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T14:57:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T14:58:39Z maarhart_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-23T15:01:02Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T15:02:51Z zacts: hi lispers 2017-07-23T15:03:04Z phoe: Hey zacts 2017-07-23T15:03:10Z zacts: yo 2017-07-23T15:03:14Z phoe: What's up? 2017-07-23T15:03:41Z zacts: phoe: not much, I'm just getting started with my day. I just woke up. :-P 2017-07-23T15:03:43Z zacts: I'm learning emacs 2017-07-23T15:03:51Z zacts: what is the advantage of SLIME for common lisp? 2017-07-23T15:03:57Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T15:04:40Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:06:28Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:08:08Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:08:36Z phoe: zacts: interactivity 2017-07-23T15:08:48Z beach: zacts: It allows you to work somewhat comfortably. 2017-07-23T15:08:55Z phoe: Lisp is an interactive programming language and SLIME is a toolkit that allows the programmer to leverage this. 2017-07-23T15:09:05Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T15:14:28Z zacts: ah cool 2017-07-23T15:16:37Z pjb: slime contains a nice debugger that works the same with all the implementations, so you don't have to learn the debugger of each implementation. 2017-07-23T15:18:49Z chens`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T15:20:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:21:25Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T15:21:28Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T15:25:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T15:28:12Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:29:50Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:32:45Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T15:35:01Z doctor joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:35:20Z doctor is now known as Guest76420 2017-07-23T15:35:44Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:36:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T15:36:42Z Guest76420 left #lisp 2017-07-23T15:39:15Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:39:49Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:42:58Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T15:54:07Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T15:59:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-23T15:59:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T16:02:16Z ryanwatkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T16:06:35Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:08:46Z shka_: zacts: also, SLIME has set of nice and useful features beyond debugger 2017-07-23T16:08:50Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:09:04Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:09:05Z jmarciano quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:09:40Z shka_: inspector, documentation inspector, go-to-definition-stuff… 2017-07-23T16:09:53Z shka_: interactive marcoexpand 2017-07-23T16:10:06Z shka_: it is not bad, really 2017-07-23T16:10:16Z shka_: in fact i like it :-) 2017-07-23T16:10:30Z shka_: beach: hello 2017-07-23T16:10:33Z zacts: oh neat 2017-07-23T16:10:45Z Shinmera: It's still Emacs, so the usability leaves things to be desired. 2017-07-23T16:10:54Z shka_: well, yes 2017-07-23T16:11:01Z shka_: we could use something better 2017-07-23T16:11:20Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:11:21Z shka_: but SLIME is really not terrible 2017-07-23T16:11:37Z shka_: and it is rather useful 2017-07-23T16:12:12Z shka_: beach: I was wondering when (+/- 1 year) your book can be expected to be finished 2017-07-23T16:13:31Z beach: Which book. I have about 10 of them partially finished. 2017-07-23T16:13:57Z phoe: :) 2017-07-23T16:14:16Z shka_: beach: ha! 2017-07-23T16:14:23Z shka_: ok 2017-07-23T16:14:30Z shka_: now i'm surprised 2017-07-23T16:14:39Z beach: Which one are you thinking of? 2017-07-23T16:14:50Z shka_: one with protocol chapter 2017-07-23T16:15:51Z shka_: beach: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf 2017-07-23T16:16:23Z beach: Ah, the one on CLOS programming. More than one year. The first one to come out is called "Concrete and Abstract Data Types with Algorithms". 2017-07-23T16:16:46Z shka_: do you have publisher already? 2017-07-23T16:17:16Z beach: I use self publishing. It gives better margins and I don't have to listen to the crap of a publisher. 2017-07-23T16:17:28Z shka_: oh, neat 2017-07-23T16:17:59Z shka_: how we will be able to know when any of your books is published? 2017-07-23T16:18:07Z shka_: some RSS channel or something? 2017-07-23T16:18:19Z beach: I'll let you know. :) 2017-07-23T16:18:41Z shka_: great 2017-07-23T16:19:04Z shka_: i want dead tree version ;-) 2017-07-23T16:19:15Z beach: That's all I propose. 2017-07-23T16:19:46Z shka_: ok 2017-07-23T16:20:26Z shka_: ok, awesome 2017-07-23T16:20:30Z beach: I use a self-publishing company that uses print-on-demand technology, so there is no bulk cost associated with a book. Just a per-unit cost. 2017-07-23T16:20:56Z shka_: what a time to be alive :-) 2017-07-23T16:21:09Z beach: Yeah, it's great. 2017-07-23T16:21:36Z shka_: i guess me, and folks at #lisp-pl will buy few units 2017-07-23T16:21:58Z beach: That's what I am hoping so that I will have a comfortable retirement. 2017-07-23T16:22:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:25:22Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:26:59Z beach: The interesting part about the book on data types is that I implemented and tested all my data types and all my algorithms in Common Lisp and wrote a translator that converts the Common Lisp code to something that looks more like a traditional algorithmic language. 2017-07-23T16:27:37Z beach: The advantage is that 1. the algorithms can be tested. 2. People who are allergic to parentheses can still buy the book. 2017-07-23T16:27:44Z shka_: hm 2017-07-23T16:28:00Z shka_: what data types you describe, anyway? 2017-07-23T16:28:31Z beach: Many of the traditional ones, plus "editable sequence" and "editor buffer" 2017-07-23T16:28:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:29:26Z shka_: hmmm 2017-07-23T16:29:43Z shka_: what was your motivation behind this book? 2017-07-23T16:30:06Z shka_: i would think that there is plenty on this subject already 2017-07-23T16:30:12Z beach: shka_: The fact that all existing algorithms on this subject are crap. 2017-07-23T16:30:19Z beach: er, existing books. 2017-07-23T16:30:27Z shka_: seriously? 2017-07-23T16:30:29Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-23T16:30:36Z shka_: wow, that's a bold statement :D 2017-07-23T16:30:52Z beach: Either they were written by people who don't know that pointers exist, so they use integers and tables in their algorithmic language. 2017-07-23T16:31:08Z shka_: ok, that's stupid 2017-07-23T16:31:14Z beach: Or they are written by people who have not followed the evolution of computer architectures for the past decades. 2017-07-23T16:32:18Z beach: Apparently, the majority of books on the subject get something simple like binary search wrong. 2017-07-23T16:32:28Z shka_: uhm? 2017-07-23T16:32:47Z shka_: there are only two things that I think can be wrong here 2017-07-23T16:33:01Z beach: More than that. 2017-07-23T16:33:33Z shka_: ok, i wanted to say: 1) integer overflow, 2) cache 2017-07-23T16:33:52Z shka_: now i don't know 2017-07-23T16:34:00Z beach: One question is what happens if there is no object corresponding to the one being searched for. 2017-07-23T16:34:20Z beach: The other is that the published algorithms make many more key comparisons than are needed. 2017-07-23T16:34:31Z shka_: hmm 2017-07-23T16:35:29Z beach: And the book makes things more realistic. Existing books assume that all objects are integers. 2017-07-23T16:35:43Z beach: Nobody uses binary search to search for an integer. 2017-07-23T16:36:15Z beach: So readers of traditional books don't see the difference in cost between a key comparison and an index comparison in terms of cost. Both are integers after all, right? 2017-07-23T16:36:20Z beach: Not in real life. 2017-07-23T16:36:47Z beach: In fact, existing books also get elementary types like "stack" and "queue" wrong. 2017-07-23T16:37:19Z shka_: how so? 2017-07-23T16:38:17Z beach: For "stack" they either suggest a list, so if you have a stack of DNA letters, you waste 64 bits for each bit represented. 2017-07-23T16:38:46Z beach: Or else they suggest an array, which blows real-time properties because you have to re-allocate when it is full and there is no bounded size for that. 2017-07-23T16:38:57Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:39:33Z shka_: ah, you refer to implementation 2017-07-23T16:39:59Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:40:19Z beach: I refer to whether I can realistically suggest such a data structure in a library without being ridiculed, and I don't think so. 2017-07-23T16:42:26Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-23T16:42:58Z shka_: right 2017-07-23T16:43:12Z shka_: i guess i will be buying this book as well 2017-07-23T16:43:14Z shka_: ;-) 2017-07-23T16:43:34Z beach: Everybody needs it. :) It is just that most people don't know. 2017-07-23T16:43:41Z beach: Anyway, got to go fix dinner. 2017-07-23T16:43:49Z shka_: have a good evening 2017-07-23T16:44:17Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:45:36Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:48:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:49:58Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:50:28Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:51:30Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:52:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:54:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:55:01Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:55:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:58:28Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-23T16:59:27Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-23T16:59:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T17:01:28Z strelox joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:01:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:01:59Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:04:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T17:06:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:06:43Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:17:44Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:24:07Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:24:27Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T17:30:41Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T17:31:04Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T17:36:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T17:37:30Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:38:40Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T17:39:00Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:40:52Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T17:41:34Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T17:44:20Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-23T17:48:37Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-23T17:50:00Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T18:00:50Z samlamamma joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:01:24Z samlamamma: I'm in the debugger after a break, I wanna check the value of a dynamic variable. How do I do so? Is there a way of getting a REPL while in the SLIME debugger? 2017-07-23T18:01:43Z samlamamma: Oh, just pressed Enter in SLIME-REPL and that gave me a new prompt :-/ 2017-07-23T18:01:59Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-07-23T18:06:10Z bgg_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:06:19Z samlamamma left #lisp 2017-07-23T18:06:56Z |3b|: hit i on one of the backtrace entries to "inspect in frame" and enter the variable name (probably including package), or e to "eval in frame", d for "pprint eval in frame" 2017-07-23T18:08:03Z bgg_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-23T18:13:27Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T18:14:46Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-23T18:15:10Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:17:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:24:00Z pjb: samebchase: dynamic variables may have different bindings in different threads. If you want to inspect the value in the thread that is in the debugger, use e on the frame where you want to evaluate the expression. 2017-07-23T18:33:41Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:36:00Z mingus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:36:15Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T18:38:50Z mtsd__ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:41:14Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T18:46:07Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T18:49:14Z learning_: I want to do (+ "hello" "world") => "helloworld" i tried defining + as a generic function but i get "Error: The function + is defined as something other than a generic function." When continued, the image removes the previous definition for + at which point lisp breaks because it can't do addition lol. 2017-07-23T18:49:21Z learning_: Is there a way to do what I want without breaking + 2017-07-23T18:50:35Z pjb: Yes. 2017-07-23T18:50:52Z pjb: (shadow '+) 2017-07-23T18:50:58Z learning_: do i need to use a reader macro? 2017-07-23T18:51:03Z learning_: oh! 2017-07-23T18:51:15Z pjb: Just don't use cl:+, use your-package:+ 2017-07-23T18:51:26Z pjb: You can still call cl:+ from your-package:+ if all the arguments are numbers. 2017-07-23T18:51:31Z mingus1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T18:52:07Z learning_: so don't explicitly refer to cl:+ ? 2017-07-23T18:52:11Z pjb: (defun your-package:+ (&rest args) (if (every 'numberp args) (apply (function cl:+) args) (do-whatever-you-want args))) 2017-07-23T18:52:33Z pjb: In your-package, if you've shadowed cl:+ then + will refer to your-package:+ 2017-07-23T18:52:47Z pjb: so you can just write (+ "foo" 42) and get "foo42". 2017-07-23T18:53:49Z pjb: There's an example in com.informatimago.common-lisp.invoice.invoice 2017-07-23T18:54:48Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/quicklisp/common-lisp/invoice/invoice.lisp#L399 2017-07-23T18:55:22Z pjb: In this file, we define a dispatching reader macro #m to read money amounts in specific devises. 2017-07-23T18:56:10Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/quicklisp/common-lisp/invoice/invoice.lisp#L180 2017-07-23T18:57:20Z learning_: ok. sorry for the slow response just took me a while to understand. had to play around with it in the terminal. that's really cool 2017-07-23T18:58:13Z learning_: i love how simple the solution ends up being 2017-07-23T18:58:30Z pjb: That's the advantage of IRC over phone or video: there's a level of asynchronism that is well adapted to these kind of technical discussions. 2017-07-23T18:59:10Z pjb: Notice that there's already a concatenate function: (concatenate 'string "hello" "world") #| --> "helloworld" |# 2017-07-23T19:00:07Z pjb: (defun ! (&rest string-designators) (apply (function concatenate) 'string (mapcar (function string) string-designators))) (! :hello #\space "world") #| --> "HELLO world" |# 2017-07-23T19:00:27Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T19:00:49Z pjb: It the first programming language I learned, the concatenation operation was denoted with infix ! "Hello"!" "!"world!" --> "Hello world!" 2017-07-23T19:01:15Z pjb: Well, 'Hello'!' '!'world!' --> 'Hello world!' * since ' was used for strings, not ". 2017-07-23T19:04:03Z learning_: i used a lambda. i didn't know apply could be used like that. (reduce (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) args) 2017-07-23T19:04:37Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-23T19:04:52Z learning_: or didn't think to use it like that i should say 2017-07-23T19:05:23Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:06:02Z pjb: Actually, there's a little problem as I used it: if we pass more than (- call-arguments-limit 2) arguments to !, then it's possible that an implementation break on this apply call. 2017-07-23T19:06:48Z learning_: is that a problem with using &rest args? 2017-07-23T19:06:50Z pjb: err, (- … 1) since I pass one additionnal parameter, STRING, to concatenate. 2017-07-23T19:06:57Z pjb: No it's in calling a function. 2017-07-23T19:07:10Z pjb: call-arguments-limit is a limit on the number of arguments you can pass to a function. 2017-07-23T19:07:14Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:07:50Z learning_: but won't the number of args passed to concatenate be limited by the number of args passed to ! 2017-07-23T19:07:55Z pjb: Since we can pass call-arguments-limit arguments to !, and I prefix one argument for concatenate, concatenate may receive (1+ call-arguments-limit) arguments, which would break. 2017-07-23T19:08:08Z learning_: ohhh 2017-07-23T19:08:12Z pjb: learning_: yes, but I go one beyond the limit. :-) 2017-07-23T19:08:13Z learning_: i get it now 2017-07-23T19:08:18Z learning_: that's hilarious 2017-07-23T19:08:34Z learning_: that's an issue with functions in general then isnt it 2017-07-23T19:08:38Z pjb: Yes. 2017-07-23T19:09:01Z pjb: Happily, call-arguments-limit is at the minimum 50, which is more than enough, unless you get your original argument list from random data (lists). 2017-07-23T19:09:42Z pjb: (and some implementations don't impose any limit, so you can go as high as half the ram used for stack space). 2017-07-23T19:09:44Z learning_: mine is "65536" 2017-07-23T19:10:08Z pjb: So it would break if you passed 65536 strings to ! :-) 2017-07-23T19:10:18Z learning_: i'll try not to 2017-07-23T19:12:10Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:14:51Z mtsd__ quit (Quit: Bye) 2017-07-23T19:25:27Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:26:26Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:29:08Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T19:29:43Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:32:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T19:34:16Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T19:36:06Z elr99 joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:39:39Z elr99: Hi guys. I am trying to compile pgloader, i dont have root on the pc so I installed sbcl in a home directory and Ive set the SBCL_HOME directory but when I try to cpmpile I get the error (REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS NIL) and Im inside the debugger. Using google Ive tracked it down to Slime: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/162 they mention a fix using " specifying :env in the lisp implementation definition" and a piece of 2017-07-23T19:39:39Z elr99: code..but where do I input that to be used for my make command inside hte pgloader directory? 2017-07-23T19:40:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:41:49Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-23T19:41:58Z dTal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-23T19:45:19Z rk[ghost] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T19:46:11Z dTal joined #lisp 2017-07-23T19:54:12Z Bike: elr99: dim is here sometimes, probably wait for them 2017-07-23T19:54:31Z elr99: ok thanks 2017-07-23T19:55:03Z elr99: there isnt a quick way to setup slim? if you look at the link it seams like a simple solution.. 2017-07-23T19:56:43Z Bike: i doubt pgloader uses slime, it's just a related problem 2017-07-23T19:59:42Z Bike: also, if you built sbcl yourself, i guess make sure that you do have the sockets contrib. 2017-07-23T20:00:19Z Shinmera: elr99: Portacle might be worth a shot. https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ 2017-07-23T20:03:43Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T20:07:28Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T20:10:30Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T20:13:35Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T20:14:34Z elr99: Shinmera: um..this is for a production server so i just need it to get pgloader installed for a mysql --> postgres migration 2017-07-23T20:15:46Z Shinmera: I though pgloader offered binaries you can use too? 2017-07-23T20:17:22Z Shinmera: And even if not, you can use just the quicklisp/sbcl parts of Portacle. 2017-07-23T20:17:28Z oleksiyp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T20:22:07Z elazul quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-23T20:22:29Z elr99: Shinmera, bike: here is a pastie: https://www.pastiebin.com/5975054cb158b I am on 12.04 which has the pg loader version 2 in repos, but the current 2017-07-23T20:23:29Z gremly quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T20:24:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T20:25:34Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T20:26:02Z Bike: so do you have the module? i think it should just be in modules/ in the sbcl directory. 2017-07-23T20:26:08Z Bike: er, contrib/ 2017-07-23T20:27:44Z elr99: hmm looking in the sbcl directory now..dont see a contrib 2017-07-23T20:29:55Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-23T20:30:24Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-23T20:30:39Z elr99: Bike: I see now. I just need to figure out how to compile those then.. 2017-07-23T20:30:48Z Bike: how did you build sbcl? 2017-07-23T20:30:56Z Bike: should just need ./make.sh --fancy 2017-07-23T20:31:01Z Bike: but, i might have the module location wrong 2017-07-23T20:36:02Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-23T20:37:47Z elr99: hmm let me test a bit 2017-07-23T20:41:09Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-23T20:43:16Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T20:45:48Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2017-07-23T20:48:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-23T20:51:58Z _user joined #lisp 2017-07-23T20:54:44Z _user: helo everyone, i have a case, and I'm using a parameter as one of the cases, setf'ing the parameter to a new value doesn't seem to change the case, here is my code: https://pastebin.com/yFUXM7Sk 2017-07-23T20:55:01Z _user: I assume this has something to do with case macro expanding out the code or something? 2017-07-23T20:56:20Z Bike: #. evaluates the form as soon as it's read 2017-07-23T20:57:16Z Bike: there won't be a runtime lookup of the variable as you seem to expect 2017-07-23T20:57:34Z _user: Bike: I see, and how could I change my case to look up the variable? 2017-07-23T21:00:25Z _user: when I remove the #. it seems to break the code 2017-07-23T21:00:38Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:01:02Z elr99: bike: it worked when setting INSTALL_HOME when compiling slbc and then settinh SLBC_HOME to the lib directory 2017-07-23T21:01:07Z Bike: i would not use case for that. does it actually only have those two cases? 2017-07-23T21:01:17Z Bike: elr99: cool? 2017-07-23T21:01:36Z _user: Bike: It has something like 6 cases 2017-07-23T21:01:57Z _user: this code needs to be extremely efficient as it will get called relatively frequently 2017-07-23T21:02:37Z Bike: if you want it to do a lookup, so that you can change the variable, you need it to actually do that rather than use a constant. and case only does constants. 2017-07-23T21:03:38Z _user: damn, that's too bad, what would you reccomend instead? a series of ifs? 2017-07-23T21:03:44Z Bike: cond 2017-07-23T21:03:54Z Bike: so, basically yes. 2017-07-23T21:03:57Z _user: ok, cond also works 2017-07-23T21:04:05Z _user: same thing in the end 2017-07-23T21:04:16Z _user: thank you very much for your help! 2017-07-23T21:04:17Z Bike: of course, if that's the only variable case you could use cond/if for the variable, and case for the constants. 2017-07-23T21:04:22Z Bike: no problem. 2017-07-23T21:04:39Z learning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T21:05:35Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:05:51Z learning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T21:06:03Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:06:07Z learning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T21:13:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T21:16:27Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:23:23Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T21:34:30Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:34:38Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-23T21:34:55Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:36:23Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:38:08Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:47:29Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-23T21:47:52Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:49:05Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2017-07-23T21:50:09Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:50:39Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-23T21:51:06Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-23T21:54:28Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-07-23T22:00:38Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T22:03:54Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-23T22:04:08Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-23T22:05:02Z alelos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-23T22:08:41Z _user quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T22:09:00Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T22:17:19Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-07-23T22:17:58Z elr99 quit 2017-07-23T22:18:22Z holycow: aha, finally someone found this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6p0riq/william_byrd_on_the_most_beautiful_program_ever/ 2017-07-23T22:18:28Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T22:18:32Z holycow: one of the most interesting programming videos i have ever seen 2017-07-23T22:28:17Z oleksiyp quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-23T22:29:10Z slark quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-23T22:30:36Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-23T22:30:54Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-23T22:35:24Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T22:37:59Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-07-23T22:38:26Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-23T22:47:32Z axion: Anyone that uses paredit for CL, could you tell me what the ) key is bound to in a lisp-mode buffer? 2017-07-23T22:56:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-23T23:04:44Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-23T23:13:30Z binghe joined #lisp 2017-07-23T23:17:22Z binghe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T23:27:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-23T23:28:43Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T23:29:02Z edgar-rft: aion: I don't use paredit, but C-h k ) in a Lisp buffer should tell you what the ) key is bound to 2017-07-23T23:29:09Z edgar-rft: axion ^^ 2017-07-23T23:33:24Z pjb: paredit-close-round 2017-07-23T23:34:37Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-23T23:34:49Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-23T23:35:47Z axion: thank you pjb. i am trying to figure out if smartparens has something like it, where it condenses stray closing parens if you have whitespace between point 2017-07-23T23:36:37Z fouric quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-23T23:40:09Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-23T23:47:35Z nosefouratyou quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-23T23:48:30Z Fare: is this a compliant way to undefined a class? If not, is there one and what is it? (setf (find-class 'my-class) nil) 2017-07-23T23:48:45Z Fare: most implementations seem to like it, but MKCL borks. 2017-07-23T23:53:14Z Bike: that's how to do it. it explicitly says so in clhs 2017-07-23T23:54:21Z Bike: "if the new class given to setf is nil, the class association is removed (but the class object itself is not affected)" 2017-07-23T23:54:22Z axion: this cannot be done easily 2017-07-23T23:56:24Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-23T23:56:29Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-23T23:56:41Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T00:00:40Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T00:04:45Z midre joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:07:53Z Fare: thanks. 2017-07-24T00:08:24Z axion: This will not remove accessors or unintern symbols 2017-07-24T00:08:40Z Fare: neither should it 2017-07-24T00:08:55Z Fare: but ASDF's test is correct, and MKCL is wrong. 2017-07-24T00:09:35Z axion: Ok, an ezisting instance will still function is all, if that is accepptable 2017-07-24T00:17:16Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T00:22:13Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T00:26:25Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:28:28Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-24T00:35:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T00:37:05Z Fare: of course, that's how it should be. 2017-07-24T00:37:29Z Fare: The point of redefining a class is hot upgrade, and during hot upgrade, you want old instances of the old class to keep working 2017-07-24T00:42:17Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:44:46Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T00:47:18Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T00:47:19Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:47:26Z z3t0: hi 2017-07-24T00:47:33Z z3t0: is it possible to use slime to edit a variable in place 2017-07-24T00:47:47Z z3t0: so lets say i have a global variable *db* and this is the repl 2017-07-24T00:47:49Z z3t0: >*db* 2017-07-24T00:48:19Z z3t0: Which then prints out the data for that global variable, can i go in and change the variable by literally typing in the output? 2017-07-24T00:48:35Z z3t0: I thought it might work because doing so changes it from red to green, though it doesnt save 2017-07-24T00:50:35Z Bike: not as far as i know 2017-07-24T00:51:06Z z3t0: alright thanks 2017-07-24T00:53:24Z mood quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-24T00:54:58Z mood joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:55:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:56:52Z yegortimoshenko joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:57:03Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:57:54Z yegortimoshenko: hi, which lisps have a built-in complete set of unix fs functions? (mkdir, symlink, etc.) 2017-07-24T00:58:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-24T00:58:31Z yegortimoshenko: s/lisps/CL implementations/ 2017-07-24T00:59:34Z Cthulhux: why should programming languages mirror a certain OS? 2017-07-24T01:00:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:00:31Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T01:01:02Z yegortimoshenko: actually i'd prefer that the interface is abstract enough that it supports other operating systems as well 2017-07-24T01:01:28Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T01:01:33Z Cthulhux: that would still require a basic set of common file system functionalities (e.g. symlinks) 2017-07-24T01:02:24Z Cthulhux: lisp was not made to replace your shell scripts. 2017-07-24T01:02:42Z Cthulhux: (probably because it's older ^^) 2017-07-24T01:05:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:07:45Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:08:30Z yegortimoshenko: lisp is useful in any setting, whether it's scripting (which is what i'm looking for in this case) or system-agnostic applications. i like interactive development. it just so happens that i prefer common lisp over, say, scheme, where i could have used racket or guile or whatever. 2017-07-24T01:12:13Z learning_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T01:13:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:14:54Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T01:17:05Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T01:22:34Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:26:27Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:28:59Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:29:31Z p_l: Cthulhux: interestingly, Ruby deliberately exposes UNIX syscalls in core library 2017-07-24T01:32:36Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:32:55Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T01:36:34Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:41:17Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:48:42Z learning_ quit 2017-07-24T01:50:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:53:37Z sjl quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-24T01:58:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T01:59:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T01:59:45Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:00:10Z michael__ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:00:52Z shiranuidong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T02:02:32Z michael__ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-24T02:03:02Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:03:04Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-24T02:03:43Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:04:11Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-24T02:04:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T02:05:19Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:06:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:07:05Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T02:07:25Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:08:48Z aeth: my personal view on sh vs a scripting language: if it's a few lines in sh, no language probably comes close in conciseness... 2017-07-24T02:08:54Z aeth: ...but if it's more than a few lines it's a nightmare 2017-07-24T02:11:37Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T02:13:55Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:18:29Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:21:26Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-24T02:24:08Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:25:57Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T02:31:42Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T02:35:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:38:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T02:40:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T02:45:00Z yegortimoshenko left #lisp 2017-07-24T02:51:57Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T02:53:46Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:07:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T03:09:23Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:12:22Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T03:14:55Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T03:16:44Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-24T03:22:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:22:52Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:31:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:37:44Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T03:38:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:42:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T03:45:21Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:45:26Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-24T03:51:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T03:52:27Z Fare: good evening 2017-07-24T03:53:26Z beach: Hello Fare. 2017-07-24T03:55:15Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-24T03:56:59Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T03:59:24Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T04:00:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:00:58Z maarhart_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:01:37Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:02:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T04:04:06Z maarhart_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-24T04:14:36Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T04:27:18Z akkad: Fare: when do we get adsf on gerbil? 2017-07-24T04:28:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T04:31:58Z jackdaniel: gerbil? 2017-07-24T04:32:20Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T04:32:25Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:39:02Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-24T04:39:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:44:17Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:44:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T04:44:30Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:47:20Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:52:33Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-24T04:58:40Z akkad: jackdaniel: http://cons.io 2017-07-24T05:00:27Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:03:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:05:52Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T05:10:33Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:13:28Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T05:14:18Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T05:22:38Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:24:39Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-24T05:27:32Z kruhft joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:29:39Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T05:29:48Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:31:25Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:33:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:40:31Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:40:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:43:38Z Fare: akkad, eventually I'll work on the gerbil build system. Not now. 2017-07-24T05:44:20Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-) 2017-07-24T05:45:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T05:47:53Z jackdaniel: Fare: did you see the PR on asdf repository? about adding init-name buildarg to create-image for ecl 2017-07-24T05:49:09Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:51:29Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T05:52:07Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T05:52:51Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-24T05:53:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:54:19Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:56:27Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-24T05:58:57Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-24T06:03:05Z mulk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T06:06:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T06:08:37Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-24T06:13:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T06:13:21Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:13:23Z mulk joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:16:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T06:19:13Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T06:20:12Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:21:42Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:25:08Z quazimod1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-24T06:25:17Z Fare: jackdaniel, I didn't see. Somehow my mail isn't subscribed to new PRs. 2017-07-24T06:26:24Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:26:43Z Fare: jackdaniel, I have a weird bug trying to upgrade asdf from your 3.1.8.5 to my 3.3.0 (tentative): the upgrade borks on #:FIND-COMPONENT being undefined (mind the uninterned symbol) 2017-07-24T06:27:27Z Fare: I don't understand what would unintern FIND-COMPONENT specifically. But the gf is defined in component and the methods in find-component 2017-07-24T06:29:55Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T06:30:06Z Fare: oh, I see it's listed as redefined in asdf/upgrade, which causes it to be fmakunbound. But not uninterned. 2017-07-24T06:30:08Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:30:40Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T06:34:56Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T06:40:05Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:42:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:45:24Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T06:47:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T06:49:08Z Fare: jackdaniel, I replied on https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/76 2017-07-24T06:50:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:54:15Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:57:39Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-24T06:58:29Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T07:00:59Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:01:22Z aceluck_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:01:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:02:52Z jackdaniel: Fare: replied 2017-07-24T07:04:01Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:04:16Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:05:50Z ryanwatk` joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:06:24Z aceluck_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:08:32Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:11:24Z ryanwatk` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:12:01Z neoncont_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T07:16:59Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T07:17:49Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T07:20:08Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:24:00Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:27:07Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T07:27:15Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:28:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:30:32Z christiaan quit (Quit: christiaan) 2017-07-24T07:31:44Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:34:30Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:36:20Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:36:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:41:57Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:42:14Z z3t0: hi all I am trying to learn common lisp by reading Practical Common Lisp but am stuck at the very end of chapter 3 2017-07-24T07:42:30Z z3t0: https://gist.github.com/z3t0/608f84bf9c0e1ec86845a0b6ece23529 is my code so far, and i have checked with code from other people using the same book to make sure the code is okay 2017-07-24T07:42:39Z whoman: at the end of a chapter, continue to the beginning of the next one. 2017-07-24T07:42:52Z z3t0: my issue is with a macro, the one called where 2017-07-24T07:42:55Z z3t0: whoman: haha nice one :) 2017-07-24T07:43:03Z whoman: =) 2017-07-24T07:43:21Z z3t0: now as i understand it i can use macroexpand-1 to get the actual expansion of a macro 2017-07-24T07:43:21Z whoman: perhaps it should be `'# 2017-07-24T07:43:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:43:38Z z3t0: oh...that would explain it 2017-07-24T07:43:51Z z3t0: wait sorry where? 2017-07-24T07:44:06Z z3t0: oh for the where? 2017-07-24T07:44:12Z whoman: in the macro your issue was indicated to be located at 2017-07-24T07:44:20Z z3t0: I'm pretty sure the macro is defined correctly though 2017-07-24T07:44:39Z binghe joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:44:40Z whoman: i am not great with CL hmm 2017-07-24T07:44:43Z z3t0: Yes it is, I've checked with online code samples and the code from the book so that cant be the issue 2017-07-24T07:44:59Z z3t0: well the thing is i used macroexpand-1 to verify the expansion to be correct 2017-07-24T07:45:12Z z3t0: but i fail to be able to actually use it and instead get function not defined error 2017-07-24T07:45:14Z z3t0: for example 2017-07-24T07:45:28Z z3t0: (select (where :rating 11)) 2017-07-24T07:45:53Z z3t0: For some reason i get a Rating is undefined which doesnt make sense because im using it as a keyword 2017-07-24T07:46:01Z Shinmera: There's no make-comparison-list defined in your paste 2017-07-24T07:46:25Z z3t0: oh my bad accidentally left that out of the paste, it is in the actual file though (sorry for that) 2017-07-24T07:47:04Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T07:48:05Z Shinmera: This also seems to be a typo in the book 2017-07-24T07:48:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T07:48:22Z Shinmera: the function is make-comparisons-list (plural), but in the text he calls it make-comparison-list 2017-07-24T07:49:20Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:50:23Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:50:59Z z3t0: yes noticed that thanks, though i made the typo consistently hmm 2017-07-24T07:51:20Z Shinmera: Note that you can also just call make-comparison-list yourself in the REPL to verify that it outputs the correct list of clauses. 2017-07-24T07:51:22Z z3t0: I just copy pasted someone elses version of this chapter and it works fine there so i will carefully go and find what the differnece must be 2017-07-24T07:51:38Z z3t0: il try that thanks 2017-07-24T07:51:56Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:53:30Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:54:16Z z3t0: cant figure it out ... 2017-07-24T07:55:57Z z3t0: it seems whatever i pass into where i get an undefined on that keyword 2017-07-24T07:56:43Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:57:20Z z3t0: oh found my mistake 2017-07-24T07:57:37Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T07:57:59Z z3t0: I try to use &rest twice, a second time in the make-comparison-list 2017-07-24T07:58:33Z loke: z3t0: twice? 2017-07-24T07:59:21Z jackdaniel: (defun foo (a &rest args &key a b c) …) ; (defmacro bar ((a &rest b) (c &rest d) &body e) …) 2017-07-24T07:59:40Z z3t0: updated the gist https://gist.github.com/z3t0/608f84bf9c0e1ec86845a0b6ece23529 2017-07-24T07:59:47Z z3t0: in line 58 and 41 i use &rest 2017-07-24T07:59:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-24T07:59:54Z z3t0: so the second time is in the make-comparisons-list function 2017-07-24T08:00:01Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:00:17Z z3t0: that must have made it try and evaluate the arguments 2017-07-24T08:00:18Z whoman: hmm, your where returns a lambda for me. 2017-07-24T08:01:43Z z3t0: yes but look closely whoman the keywords are treated as functions 2017-07-24T08:01:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:02:07Z whoman: (function-lambda-expression (where :blah)) -> (LAMBDA (CD)) 2017-07-24T08:02:11Z z3t0: thats why i was confused when debugging as it appeared to work 2017-07-24T08:02:13Z whoman: but my make-comparison-list is empty 2017-07-24T08:02:21Z z3t0: huh 2017-07-24T08:02:22Z whoman: so i think it is your make-comparison-list function 2017-07-24T08:02:26Z z3t0: yep 2017-07-24T08:02:32Z whoman: which is not in the gist 2017-07-24T08:02:39Z z3t0: i updated the gist, sorry for that 2017-07-24T08:03:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:04:42Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:04:47Z whoman: hmm. still same result for me 2017-07-24T08:06:05Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:06:23Z whoman: using where/make-comparison-list/make-comparison-expr from your gist, i get the result '(LAMBDA (CD))' from macroexpand-1 . 2017-07-24T08:06:27Z z3t0: im still having some issues as well, trying to figure it out 2017-07-24T08:06:46Z z3t0: hmm 2017-07-24T08:06:56Z z3t0: can you pastebin? 2017-07-24T08:07:14Z whoman: sure 2017-07-24T08:08:10Z whoman: https://pastebin.com/LbwiTSTP 2017-07-24T08:09:01Z z3t0: try changing (defun make-comparison-list (&rest fields) => (defun make-comparsion-list (fields)) 2017-07-24T08:09:20Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:09:34Z whoman: same result 2017-07-24T08:09:48Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:10:03Z z3t0: (macroexpand-1 (where :blah)) => (macroexpand-1 '(where :blah) 2017-07-24T08:10:06Z z3t0: (macroexpand-1 (where :blah)) => (macroexpand-1 '(where :blah)) 2017-07-24T08:10:29Z whoman: #'(LAMBDA (CD) (AND (EQUAL (GETF CD :BLAH) NIL))) 2017-07-24T08:10:35Z z3t0: yep thats correct 2017-07-24T08:10:56Z z3t0: but theres still another issue ... not sure what exactly it is yet 2017-07-24T08:11:05Z z3t0: eg. (select (where :rating 10)) will throw an error 2017-07-24T08:11:18Z z3t0: the value defun is not of type list 2017-07-24T08:11:41Z z3t0: for some reason there is a (getf defun :title ..) somehow 2017-07-24T08:11:43Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:12:33Z whoman: (select... gives NIL 2017-07-24T08:12:57Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:12:58Z whoman: but my *db* is nil. check yours 2017-07-24T08:13:28Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T08:13:57Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:13:59Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:14:21Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T08:14:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:15:11Z z3t0: im stepping through select with a debugger, if you want to check https://gist.github.com/z3t0/8017a18309890cb2b2fda0323b8446a4 is the database 2017-07-24T08:15:23Z z3t0: it can be loaded with (load-db path-name) 2017-07-24T08:15:34Z z3t0: where path-name is something like "~/cd.db" 2017-07-24T08:20:02Z |3b|: is that the current value of *db* or the data from the file? 2017-07-24T08:20:39Z |3b|: seems to work for me with that data 2017-07-24T08:20:57Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:22:35Z z3t0: really both data and value 2017-07-24T08:22:55Z z3t0: if you do (select (where :title "Demons")) does it work? 2017-07-24T08:23:08Z |3b|: yeah 2017-07-24T08:23:30Z z3t0: hmm works for me too..... 2017-07-24T08:23:40Z z3t0: must have fixed something along the way haha 2017-07-24T08:23:47Z z3t0: thanks for bearing with me 2017-07-24T08:24:20Z whoman: hehe=) 2017-07-24T08:30:08Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:31:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:32:17Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:33:53Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:33:54Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:37:25Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:37:54Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T08:40:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:43:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:45:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:47:55Z scottj left #lisp 2017-07-24T08:48:09Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:49:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:50:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T08:50:47Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T08:50:55Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-24T08:57:58Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:03:25Z trocado quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.1.1) 2017-07-24T09:08:30Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T09:08:33Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:12:24Z Colleen joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:13:30Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:16:59Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:17:51Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:29:14Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T09:33:07Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:34:40Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T09:37:28Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T09:38:39Z ludston joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:38:58Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:39:48Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-24T09:42:23Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T09:47:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:50:00Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-24T09:52:07Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T09:56:46Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T09:59:21Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T10:00:26Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:03:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:03:32Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:11:10Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T10:13:24Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:13:24Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-07-24T10:13:24Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:14:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:17:13Z mingus joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:29:14Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:33:11Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T10:34:08Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:37:38Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T10:38:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T10:38:20Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-24T10:49:56Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-24T10:54:19Z binghe quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [SeaMonkey 2.46/20161213183751]) 2017-07-24T10:55:01Z flip214: is it possible to change the output format for TRACE messages? 2017-07-24T10:55:17Z flip214: I'd like to have each argument started in a new line (with a few spaces in front); 2017-07-24T10:55:49Z flip214: currently they're started in the function-entry output line, but that means that longer pieces of data 2017-07-24T10:56:10Z flip214: (like arrays) are a small-width blob on the right border 2017-07-24T10:56:24Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T10:56:52Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T10:57:31Z pjb: In some implementations, there are implementation dependent options to TRACE, that would let you write your own thing. 2017-07-24T10:57:40Z pjb: But otherwise, you will have to implement your own tracing facility. 2017-07-24T10:58:26Z pjb: You may also play with the *print-…* variables including pretty printing stuff. 2017-07-24T11:01:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:04:02Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:04:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:07:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:09:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:13:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:16:11Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:21:37Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:22:12Z ludston quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T11:23:14Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:23:48Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-24T11:27:11Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:28:43Z Murii quit (Quit: Going home) 2017-07-24T11:30:07Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T11:30:43Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:34:46Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:34:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:35:34Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:37:58Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T11:38:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:39:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:43:05Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:47:40Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T11:50:21Z shka: flip214: if you are debugging, try fancy trace 2017-07-24T11:50:25Z shka: from slime 2017-07-24T12:01:02Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-24T12:01:40Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:02:41Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:03:26Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:04:28Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T12:05:49Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T12:07:48Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T12:08:18Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:08:50Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T12:12:40Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T12:12:59Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:14:32Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T12:18:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:19:53Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:22:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T12:32:35Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:35:38Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:39:03Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:40:13Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T12:42:29Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-24T12:52:41Z hel-io_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:53:10Z Posterdati^2 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:53:12Z Posterdati^2: hi 2017-07-24T12:53:26Z beach: Hello Posterdati^2. 2017-07-24T12:53:42Z Posterdati^2: call me "squared" 2017-07-24T12:54:12Z shka: i guess you will get along with phoe 2017-07-24T12:54:13Z beach: Be there or be squared. 2017-07-24T12:54:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T12:54:51Z dlowe: we will ensure your dimensions are rectilinear and equal-sided. You really want to be there. 2017-07-24T12:56:02Z Posterdati^2: and I'm using mks, not that foolish american system... :) with lb, feet, oz and mph 2017-07-24T12:56:27Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T12:57:00Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T12:59:54Z pjb: Posterdati^2: so you're still in flatland? 2017-07-24T13:00:03Z Posterdati^2: in fatland 2017-07-24T13:00:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:01:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:02:34Z flip214: shka: thanks, will try 2017-07-24T13:03:13Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-24T13:03:47Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T13:04:53Z flip214: shka: well, that's just the frontend for swank, anyway... I'm using slimv, but use the same swank backend. 2017-07-24T13:05:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T13:08:17Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:13:50Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T13:15:40Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:16:27Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:24:28Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:29:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T13:30:55Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:32:15Z hel-io_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T13:34:44Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:35:20Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:36:49Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:38:02Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:41:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T13:42:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:45:27Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T13:50:00Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:50:07Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T13:53:55Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:54:03Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-24T13:56:36Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:00:32Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T14:01:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:01:39Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:02:26Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:04:13Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T14:06:35Z daemoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T14:08:17Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:09:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:09:40Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T14:12:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:12:53Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T14:15:00Z gremly joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:15:10Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:20:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T14:26:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T14:29:47Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:34:08Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:36:25Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:36:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:37:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T14:41:40Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T14:44:02Z l04m33 quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-24T14:45:39Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2017-07-24T14:57:50Z jameser_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T14:58:12Z maarhart_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:00:56Z maarhart_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T15:01:55Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:08:52Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T15:09:41Z ptdel joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:10:47Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:12:48Z ptdel: hey guys, I'm just getting into CL, coming from Python. I had a question that might just be a matter of preference. In Python I typically try to make things classes and put all the stuff i work with into those classes to be operated on by class methods. Should I still be trying to use the CLOS with all of my data (say classes that represent JSON objects) to make classes and methods to accomplish things, or 2017-07-24T15:12:54Z ptdel: should i change my thinking to be centered around getting things done with top-level functions? 2017-07-24T15:13:14Z ptdel: or there a CL equivalent to being "Pythonic" that I should adhere to? 2017-07-24T15:13:32Z Shinmera: You do whatever is appropriate for your task. 2017-07-24T15:13:36Z beach: ptdel: Modern Common Lisp uses standard classes a lot. 2017-07-24T15:13:54Z beach: ptdel: But classes don't have methods in Common Lisp. Generic functions do. 2017-07-24T15:14:59Z ptdel: right now sort of teaching myself by making an api wrapper that signs and sends json over http. 2017-07-24T15:15:19Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T15:15:33Z ptdel: I think I've been approaching classes the wrong way, making a defclass and defmethod for each one 2017-07-24T15:15:36Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:15:38Z ptdel: thinking of it like __init_- 2017-07-24T15:16:03Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T15:16:21Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:16:25Z beach: You can create a function for constructing a class instance, but it is more common to use MAKE-INSTANCE directly. 2017-07-24T15:16:30Z Shinmera: ptdel: If you want to look at API wrappers, there's already a bunch out there that can give you an idea on how to go about it. 2017-07-24T15:16:52Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T15:17:00Z ptdel: Shinmera: I am looking at turtl and something called cl-amazonproduct which are two CL api's for AWS services. they have been really helpful 2017-07-24T15:17:12Z ptdel: I got familiar with asdf that way, which is really nice 2017-07-24T15:17:18Z beach: ptdel: Think of a class (as viewed by client code) as something abstract that takes a bunch of :INITARGs to create. 2017-07-24T15:17:29Z beach: er, to instantiate. 2017-07-24T15:17:29Z ptdel: beach: yeah i've been doing (make-instance) 2017-07-24T15:17:43Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T15:18:03Z Shinmera: ptdel: What I do is map each API endpoint to a function that returns an instance of a class that represents the output of the API call. 2017-07-24T15:18:33Z Shinmera: I then add generic functions that you can use with these classes to perform the operations the API provides in a more comfortable manner. 2017-07-24T15:18:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:18:51Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:18:54Z whoman: CLOS is great for object hierarchy 2017-07-24T15:19:18Z ptdel: ah ok, that is sort of what i am trying to do i think. i have some functions for formatting request data and urlencoding things, and then i have classes representing that API calls and their parameters that can be made 2017-07-24T15:19:35Z ptdel: but i am just making escaped json from the classes right away and passing them to the functions 2017-07-24T15:19:35Z beach: whoman: "object hierarchy"? Why? It is good for any structure of objects. 2017-07-24T15:19:55Z ptdel: your approach seems more robust, i will try and refactor to be more like your setup 2017-07-24T15:21:05Z shiranuidong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T15:21:12Z Shinmera: ptdel: Another approach is to have "raw" API mappers that simply return parsed JSON, and a separate high-level interface that operates on the API with CLOS. 2017-07-24T15:21:18Z whoman: beach, my apologies, i said that because i didnt want to say OOP 2017-07-24T15:21:32Z Shinmera: ptdel: That's what I did in Humbler, for example. https://github.com/Shinmera/humbler 2017-07-24T15:21:47Z beach: whoman: ? 2017-07-24T15:22:03Z whoman: ? buzzwords? 2017-07-24T15:22:33Z ptdel: Shinmera ah that actually sonuds like it might be more suited to what I am doing 2017-07-24T15:22:40Z whoman: "CLOS is great for OS" - then 2017-07-24T15:22:43Z beach: whoman: Why would the objects be restricted to a hierarchy? 2017-07-24T15:22:49Z ptdel: it is all POST w/ json objects but via raw https 2017-07-24T15:22:53Z whoman: beach, my apologies, i said that because i didnt want to say OOP 2017-07-24T15:23:00Z ptdel: (i am trying to make a crappy sdk ultimately) 2017-07-24T15:23:41Z Shinmera: ptdel: An example of the former strategy is Chirp https://github.com/Shinmera/chirp 2017-07-24T15:24:59Z ptdel: Shinmera: wow thanks! your repos are awesome i was looking for examples like this 2017-07-24T15:25:23Z Shinmera: They're not written in the most beginner-friendly way I'm afraid. 2017-07-24T15:25:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:25:50Z ptdel: that is totally fine. I've done lots of C and Python, so I can pick up most advanced concepts just getting used to the non-algol look of things 2017-07-24T15:26:13Z ptdel: didn't want to start with things like syntactic sugar, wanted to start with things like asdf and the lisp ecosystem :) 2017-07-24T15:26:52Z Shinmera: Well, if you have questions, just let me know. 2017-07-24T15:27:08Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T15:27:10Z ptdel: I really appreciate it, good to know this channel has helpful people in it ^_^ 2017-07-24T15:27:16Z Shinmera: Been a while since I wrote that stuff (2014, jeez) so it'll take me a bit to get back into it, though. 2017-07-24T15:27:20Z ptdel: looking at humbler now 2017-07-24T15:30:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:30:10Z Shinmera: Encouraging comments. :/ https://github.com/Shinmera/humbler/blob/master/deferring.lisp#L28 2017-07-24T15:31:11Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:32:07Z ptdel: it's like a very sparse poem 2017-07-24T15:38:12Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:40:04Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:40:08Z d4ryus3 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:40:40Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:42:28Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:42:34Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T15:42:57Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T15:43:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T15:46:35Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T15:54:54Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T15:58:02Z sparkyy_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T15:58:09Z phoe: ho boy 2017-07-24T15:59:29Z sparkyy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:05:18Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T16:05:43Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:05:53Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:07:27Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:12:43Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:12:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:13:08Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:14:19Z froggey joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:16:11Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:20:04Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:21:27Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:21:54Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-24T16:22:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:23:14Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:23:48Z ryanwatkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T16:25:12Z dyelar1 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:25:32Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T16:25:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T16:30:24Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:31:04Z dyelar1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T16:31:20Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:32:15Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:32:36Z parjanya joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:34:05Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T16:35:18Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:35:18Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:36:17Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:37:16Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:39:11Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:39:50Z oleksiyp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:43:28Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:44:14Z sveit joined #lisp 2017-07-24T16:46:13Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T16:56:38Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-24T17:00:53Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:01:32Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T17:02:40Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:03:40Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:09:12Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T17:09:46Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:09:50Z slark: hi, so a "defun" inside a let block is accessible from outside the let right ? 2017-07-24T17:10:00Z slark: all function defined ith defun are global ? 2017-07-24T17:10:09Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:10:40Z Bike: yes. 2017-07-24T17:10:51Z Bike: though it's pretty unusual to have a defun that's not at top level anyway. 2017-07-24T17:11:16Z slark: Bike: indeed, reading ansi common lisp and graham is using this example 2017-07-24T17:11:34Z slark: Bike: and indeed first time i saw it 2017-07-24T17:12:13Z slark: Bike: he used a crazy example i cant undestand at all something like (defun (setf f) (param) body) 2017-07-24T17:12:42Z Shinmera: (setf x) is a name for a function. 2017-07-24T17:12:48Z slark: oh ok 2017-07-24T17:13:19Z Shinmera: CL allows two kinds of names- symbols, and compounds of the form (setf name). 2017-07-24T17:13:46Z Shinmera: The latter having the effect that if you then use (setf (name ..) bla) it'll invoke that function with bla and .. as arguments. 2017-07-24T17:15:08Z slark: humm 2017-07-24T17:15:49Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T17:17:10Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T17:20:43Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T17:21:55Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:24:35Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:24:37Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:28:52Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:30:48Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:31:32Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T17:35:22Z Grue` joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:35:23Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:39:57Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:40:12Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:40:19Z hel-io joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:40:24Z Grue`: what could that mean? "fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 24554(tid 0x7fffe7daf700): blockables unblocked" happens when calling GraphicsMagick's MagickReadImage through CFFI 2017-07-24T17:41:00Z |3b| 's guess is foreign lib messes with signal handlers in a way sbcl doesn't like 2017-07-24T17:41:15Z Shinmera: Grue`: imagemagick screws around with signal handlers for no good reason. 2017-07-24T17:41:39Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T17:43:08Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:43:09Z Fare: Alastair Bridgewater had some hints on how to fix SBCL signal handling so you can dynamically modify it, but he never implemented it nor did anyone else 2017-07-24T17:43:36Z Shinmera: Recompiling magick without the signal handlers would probably be easier and work better. 2017-07-24T17:44:00Z beach: Fare: He is known as nyef on IRC. 2017-07-24T17:44:03Z Fare: but fixing SBCL's signal handling can help in many more cases 2017-07-24T17:44:15Z Fare: such as e.g. using signalfd 2017-07-24T17:44:21Z Shinmera: Fare: Sure. I just don't think it's a feasible approach for Grue` at the moment :) 2017-07-24T17:45:01Z Fare: does anyone here know how to setup ECL or MKCL on Windows? 2017-07-24T17:45:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:45:26Z beach: Fare: Pretty sure jackdaniel knows about ECL. 2017-07-24T17:45:42Z Shinmera: Fare: probably just using MSYS2/MinGW. 2017-07-24T17:52:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T17:53:50Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T17:55:37Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T17:59:49Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:00:48Z ptdel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T18:02:05Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:03:54Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:05:12Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T18:07:11Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:08:22Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:08:51Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:09:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:12:16Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:16:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T18:18:24Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:18:52Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:19:30Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:19:57Z dcluna joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:21:15Z jackdaniel: with msvc go to msvc directory and call `nmake' 2017-07-24T18:21:31Z jackdaniel: with mingw/msys/cygwin go to toplevel and ./configure && make && make install 2017-07-24T18:21:43Z jackdaniel: (just like Unices) 2017-07-24T18:22:19Z jackdaniel: I'm going to protest, see you later o/ 2017-07-24T18:25:54Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:28:34Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T18:29:50Z Fare: protest? 2017-07-24T18:30:00Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:30:48Z shka_: Fare: poland 2017-07-24T18:34:05Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:35:20Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:36:10Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:38:10Z Fare googles poland protest 2017-07-24T18:40:39Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:41:35Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:43:28Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T18:45:03Z watersoul joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:45:26Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:46:02Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T18:47:23Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:49:27Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T18:50:11Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-24T18:51:19Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:11:12Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:13:02Z hel-io quit 2017-07-24T19:17:15Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:23:25Z zagura joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:25:42Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:30:35Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:31:08Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T19:36:51Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-24T19:41:52Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:44:25Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T19:44:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T19:46:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T19:47:21Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T19:48:49Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-24T19:53:05Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T20:00:05Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:02:23Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:10:04Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T20:10:41Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:12:16Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:13:30Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T20:15:57Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-24T20:19:28Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T20:20:54Z phoe: Xach: Are there recent popularity graphs for quicklisp packages? 2017-07-24T20:21:08Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T20:25:58Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T20:31:01Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-24T20:33:42Z aceluck_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:34:53Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-24T20:35:19Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:38:01Z BlueRavenGT quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-24T20:38:48Z aceluck_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T20:38:53Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T20:39:01Z Ainieco joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:39:03Z Ainieco: hello 2017-07-24T20:39:45Z Ainieco: is there a modern replacement for asdf? manually specifiying file dependencies seems a bit odd in 2017 2017-07-24T20:41:10Z Bike: what would you rather it do? 2017-07-24T20:42:35Z Ellenor is now known as Rezor 2017-07-24T20:42:40Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T20:42:42Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:42:51Z Ainieco: Bike: well, it would be nice for it to autodiscover file dependencies in my project and resolve them automatically, it's a common practice 2017-07-24T20:43:17Z Rezor is now known as Ellenor 2017-07-24T20:43:25Z Shinmera: Common if you have explicit things like #include 2017-07-24T20:43:35Z Shinmera: There's no such thing in Lisp, so the task is far from trivial. 2017-07-24T20:43:51Z Shinmera: There's "package inferred systems" if you force yourself to use one package for each file. 2017-07-24T20:43:58Z Shinmera: But that's "quite awful" in my opinion 2017-07-24T20:44:25Z Bike: this is done in C? what kind of dependencies are inferred? 2017-07-24T20:44:46Z phoe: Ainieco: https://github.com/phoe/asd-generator 2017-07-24T20:45:07Z Shinmera: Bike: well, each C file is usually already its own compilation unit, so all that's left to figure out is if headers have changed. 2017-07-24T20:45:11Z Bike: sure 2017-07-24T20:45:14Z Ainieco: Shinmera: yeah, i'm willing to force myself to use one pkg for each file, what are those systems? (:use my-pkg) seems quite explicit 2017-07-24T20:45:20Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-24T20:45:23Z Bike: i mean... that's not auto discovery, you have to include particular files 2017-07-24T20:47:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T20:59:59Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T21:01:36Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:02:11Z shka_: Ainieco: if you can't simply load in serial, your code is a mess anyway 2017-07-24T21:02:40Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:08:00Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:11:20Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-24T21:11:29Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:12:43Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-07-24T21:13:30Z k42 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:15:27Z Ainieco: shka: how to "load in serial"? haven't tried that 2017-07-24T21:17:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:18:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:22:54Z Ainieco quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-24T21:23:04Z binghe joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:27:26Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-24T21:27:50Z White_Flame: almost every actual .asd file out there uses :serial t 2017-07-24T21:33:21Z White_Flame: (oh, they left already) 2017-07-24T21:34:07Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-24T21:35:02Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:36:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:37:21Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:39:23Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:39:40Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-24T21:43:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:43:31Z lxpz quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-24T21:44:33Z slark: hello, how would you write http://paste.lisp.org/display/351603 without the backquote expression ? 2017-07-24T21:45:09Z slark: i know it should start as (list 'if (list 'progn ..... not sure for the rest of the expression 2017-07-24T21:45:41Z lxpz joined #lisp 2017-07-24T21:45:50Z slark: (list 'if condition (list 'progn .. i would mean 2017-07-24T21:47:55Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:51:06Z phoe: (list 'if condition (list* 'progn body)) 2017-07-24T21:51:10Z slark: what is the way to splice a list ((1 2) (3 4) (5 6)) into successive (1 2) (3 4) (5 6) for feeding progn with these sucessive list ? 2017-07-24T21:51:43Z slark: phoe: humm first time i see "list*" 2017-07-24T21:51:47Z phoe: clhs list* 2017-07-24T21:51:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm 2017-07-24T21:52:01Z slark: thx 2017-07-24T21:52:02Z phoe: slark: once you understand how backquote works, go back to using it :) 2017-07-24T21:52:14Z slark: phoe: oh yeah ofc 2017-07-24T21:52:16Z Ellenor quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-24T21:52:59Z White_Flame: (mapc (lambda (pair) ...your 'progn'...) '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))) 2017-07-24T21:53:37Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:53:51Z White_Flame: well, there's also DOLIST and LOOP, season to taste 2017-07-24T21:54:54Z White_Flame: oh, if you're talking about a macro body, then mapcar is probably what you mean. 2017-07-24T21:55:21Z pjb: minion: memo for Ainieco: I have a older replacement for asdf that computes the dependencies automatically, in com.informatimago.tools.make-depends 2017-07-24T21:55:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Ainieco when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-07-24T21:55:45Z White_Flame: `(if ,condition (progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (pair) `(do-something ,pair)) '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))))) 2017-07-24T21:56:22Z White_Flame: would expand to (if / 2017-07-24T21:57:41Z White_Flame: mapcar just transforms a list of inputs to a list of outputs, calling a function on each 2017-07-24T22:02:28Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T22:02:50Z slark: White_Flame: thx for the details 2017-07-24T22:07:40Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:08:38Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-24T22:10:41Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:11:23Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T22:13:54Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:17:38Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:21:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:21:11Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:24:25Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:24:27Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T22:24:33Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-24T22:25:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T22:27:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-24T22:27:26Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T22:32:38Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T22:34:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:42:57Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T22:44:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:45:37Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:47:09Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T22:47:39Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:48:55Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T22:50:47Z binghe quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [SeaMonkey 2.46/20161213183751]) 2017-07-24T22:53:01Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T22:55:41Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-24T22:59:16Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T23:07:12Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-24T23:10:42Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:11:45Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:15:40Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T23:19:59Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:30:22Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:30:44Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:31:22Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T23:37:47Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:38:03Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:38:17Z z3t0: can anyone recommend a lisp based static site generator they have used in the past? 2017-07-24T23:38:47Z z3t0: I have a site in jekyll, which I have been planning to change for a while to something else and since I'm learning lisp I thought why not 2017-07-24T23:38:57Z libreman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-24T23:41:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T23:41:47Z z3t0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-24T23:42:58Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-24T23:43:26Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-24T23:48:52Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-24T23:53:04Z vtomole: z3t0: I use hunchentoot: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ 2017-07-24T23:58:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:00:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T00:00:43Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:06:37Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:06:57Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:07:00Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:10:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:11:02Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T00:12:30Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:13:11Z z3t0: does anyone have experience using coleslaw? https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw 2017-07-25T00:14:32Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:17:34Z Xach: coleslaw! 2017-07-25T00:17:40Z Xach: that was the name that eluded me earlier 2017-07-25T00:17:44Z Xach: z3t0: no, sorry. 2017-07-25T00:18:17Z z3t0: alright no problem, I'll give it a shot and let you know how it goes 2017-07-25T00:18:36Z z3t0: Also, i really need to setup up an irc bouncer hmmm 2017-07-25T00:19:07Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T00:25:44Z z3t0 quit 2017-07-25T00:26:13Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:26:34Z z3t0: hi, im back 2017-07-25T00:31:40Z someone_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:31:45Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T00:32:23Z z3t0 left #lisp 2017-07-25T00:32:25Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:34:45Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:38:33Z someone_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-25T00:44:50Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T00:45:53Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T00:47:37Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:48:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:49:40Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:51:17Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2017-07-25T00:57:22Z b22droid joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:01:05Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T01:05:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T01:08:41Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:09:25Z b22droid quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-25T01:13:25Z kjak_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T01:13:29Z libreman joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:15:30Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T01:15:52Z kruhft quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T01:15:56Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T01:17:35Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:24:56Z parjanya: z3t0: have you seen vtomole’s answer? 2017-07-25T01:25:19Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T01:26:11Z z3t0: il check the logs, sorry i was inactive then 2017-07-25T01:26:24Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:28:01Z parjanya: z3t0: he said he uses http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ 2017-07-25T01:28:35Z parjanya: z3t0: I’m thinking about making a site using lisp as well 2017-07-25T01:30:55Z z3t0: thanks il take a look at that 2017-07-25T01:31:09Z z3t0: I just tried coleslaw and its fairly good though not very polished 2017-07-25T01:31:59Z parjanya: z3t0: in what way, for instance? 2017-07-25T01:34:52Z z3t0: A lot of ready made solutions available on other platforms such as hugo/jekyll just don't exist because there isnt really a community around coleslaw 2017-07-25T01:35:01Z z3t0: Not really a fault of the software itself 2017-07-25T01:35:45Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T01:46:57Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:49:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:49:36Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T01:51:12Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:51:53Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T01:55:44Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-25T01:55:46Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-25T01:57:48Z z3t0: can anyone recommend a game library for cl? 2017-07-25T02:01:47Z Ellenor joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:02:17Z quad__ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:02:57Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:03:00Z quad__: can ADJUST-ARRAY from a vector to another one of larger length ever re-use storage in SBCL? 2017-07-25T02:06:13Z warweasle_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:09:05Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T02:10:09Z warweasle_ is now known as warweasle 2017-07-25T02:10:20Z Ellenor quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T02:12:19Z quad__: also, advertisement, if you're interested in some remote lisp dev contracting work (<= 1 month; possible repeats), shoot me a message 2017-07-25T02:12:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T02:16:11Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:17:39Z Ellenor joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:19:30Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:20:18Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T02:21:39Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:21:48Z z3t0: quad__: How experienced are you looking for? 2017-07-25T02:21:55Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T02:23:18Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:24:33Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:28:50Z quad__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T02:29:11Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T02:31:08Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-25T02:31:53Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:33:09Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:34:13Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T02:35:23Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:38:34Z warweasle_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:41:19Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T02:41:29Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T02:42:49Z Arcaely__ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:46:17Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-25T02:53:45Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T02:56:01Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T02:56:35Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T02:57:37Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T03:01:55Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T03:09:31Z warweasle_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T03:31:01Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T03:31:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-25T03:37:35Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-25T03:58:17Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T03:59:57Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:01:25Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:03:20Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:04:22Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:04:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T04:07:44Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T04:09:21Z Fare: z3t0, see #lispgames 2017-07-25T04:17:31Z adolf_st_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T04:22:12Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T04:30:57Z z3t0: Thanks Fare I've gotten in touch with dto there 2017-07-25T04:33:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:36:38Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:36:49Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T04:40:19Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-25T04:40:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T04:42:43Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:44:30Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T04:49:07Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-25T04:49:10Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-25T04:50:05Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T04:53:49Z aceluck quit 2017-07-25T04:54:54Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-25T04:57:44Z AxelAlex: Morning! (Well, it's 1:00 AM where I am...) 2017-07-25T04:58:18Z megalography quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T04:58:53Z beach: AxelAlex: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html 2017-07-25T04:59:33Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:00:02Z beach: AxelAlex: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2017-07-25T05:01:40Z AxelAlex: I am new here! I am also new to lisp in general. Thanks for sending the link. 2017-07-25T05:02:03Z beach: OK, welcome then. 2017-07-25T05:03:11Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:04:58Z beach: AxelAlex: While #lisp is not (as some people think) a "Lisp support channel", newbie questions are tolerated as long as the newbie shows signs of wanting to learn and take advice. 2017-07-25T05:06:10Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:18:23Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:19:39Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:21:40Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-07-25T05:22:55Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T05:24:39Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:26:05Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T05:30:09Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:38:05Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T05:40:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:41:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:43:18Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T05:43:44Z quad__ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:44:04Z quad__: z3t0: experienced enough that mentoring relatively complicated projects is not necessary 2017-07-25T05:44:41Z quad__: (mentoring how to write good Lisp, that is) 2017-07-25T05:45:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:47:42Z beach: quad__: jackdaniel has a company that might be able to help. 2017-07-25T05:47:45Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T05:47:50Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-25T05:48:27Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T05:48:58Z Intensity joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:49:55Z cross joined #lisp 2017-07-25T05:50:29Z quad__: beach: I figured he must be pretty busy. (: 2017-07-25T05:50:56Z beach: Yeah, I don't know. Could be worth asking. 2017-07-25T05:51:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T05:53:44Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:00:05Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T06:02:11Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T06:06:13Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:16:55Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:18:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:19:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T06:23:11Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:23:17Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T06:25:20Z quad__ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-25T06:29:11Z taing joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:29:52Z ryanwatkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T06:31:17Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-07-25T06:44:43Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T06:45:56Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:48:15Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T06:49:27Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:50:52Z c__ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T06:53:57Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:01:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:04:11Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T07:05:08Z k42 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:08:31Z drmeister: Could anyone give me a pointer on how to get Common Lisp to ignore a non-standard declaration? I thought there was something in the spec - but I can't put my finger on it. 2017-07-25T07:09:29Z Shinmera: I don't think you can do that. 2017-07-25T07:09:32Z beach: clhs declaration 2017-07-25T07:09:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_declar.htm 2017-07-25T07:09:51Z Shinmera: What you can do is read-time conditionalize it 2017-07-25T07:09:57Z Shinmera: as in, #+clasp ... 2017-07-25T07:10:21Z beach: "Advises the compiler that each name is a valid but potentially non-standard declaration name." 2017-07-25T07:10:36Z Shinmera: Well, the more I know 2017-07-25T07:12:15Z drmeister: Right - thank you. 2017-07-25T07:23:24Z modula joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:25:58Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-25T07:25:58Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2017-07-25T07:33:49Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:34:41Z k42: quit 2017-07-25T07:34:45Z k42 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-25T07:36:01Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T07:40:00Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:46:56Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T07:49:45Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:50:57Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2017-07-25T07:56:27Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T07:58:19Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T07:59:06Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:01:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:06:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:07:42Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:11:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:27:40Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:30:33Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T08:30:56Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:33:30Z arrdem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T08:33:35Z forgot quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-25T08:35:07Z tokenrove quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T08:35:54Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:37:07Z ult quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T08:37:37Z ult joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:40:02Z tokenrove joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:40:11Z forgot joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:47:39Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:48:24Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:48:46Z arrdem joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:51:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T08:52:31Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-25T08:57:10Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T09:19:48Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T09:21:05Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T09:21:28Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T09:21:45Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-25T09:21:48Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T09:22:50Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-25T09:25:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T09:37:02Z fkac quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-25T09:42:37Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-25T09:44:17Z flip214: how would I get an account on gitlab.common-lisp.net? I can't find a "register" button. easye -- is that something you can help with, please? 2017-07-25T09:45:14Z Shinmera: flip214: https://common-lisp.net/project-intro/ 2017-07-25T09:45:35Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-25T09:46:41Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks.... so my existing account should work. 2017-07-25T09:48:51Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T09:53:49Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-25T09:54:16Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:00:46Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:07:26Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:07:43Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:11:39Z slark quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-25T10:15:42Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T10:22:31Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:25:37Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T10:27:40Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-25T10:30:20Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:31:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:31:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-25T10:31:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-25T10:34:09Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T10:35:11Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T10:42:09Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T10:45:27Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T10:49:59Z Guest81856 quit (Quit: Boom!) 2017-07-25T10:51:52Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T10:58:49Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T11:03:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:03:27Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T11:03:50Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T11:03:56Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:03:56Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-07-25T11:03:56Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:05:30Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:09:51Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:11:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:16:47Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:20:53Z flip214: hmmm, the old account seems to have been gone. 2017-07-25T11:23:13Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:26:45Z KZiemian joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:27:45Z flip214: can't find anything about how to create a new account, though... there's no self-registering, is there? 2017-07-25T11:28:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-25T11:28:58Z Shinmera: Message admin@common-lisp.net as the page mentions? 2017-07-25T11:32:19Z KZiemian: hey 2017-07-25T11:32:23Z madmalik joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:32:50Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks, yeah. so no self-registration, I need to bother somebody else. thank you! 2017-07-25T11:32:57Z KZiemian: I look for Common Lisp standard in div, should be somewhere on github 2017-07-25T11:33:12Z KZiemian: anyone could pointed where, google don't help 2017-07-25T11:33:44Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T11:34:06Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T11:35:05Z flip214: clhs 2017-07-25T11:35:10Z flip214: is what you're looking for 2017-07-25T11:35:13Z flip214: clhs mapcar 2017-07-25T11:35:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 2017-07-25T11:35:49Z flip214: or the ultra spec might be good enough already? << phoe? 2017-07-25T11:35:52Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:35:57Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-25T11:39:14Z _death: if you mean dvi, you can get dpans2 here: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/doc/standard/ansi/dpans/ 2017-07-25T11:41:43Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T11:49:25Z KZiemian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T11:52:02Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:53:32Z KZiemian joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:53:52Z KZiemian: my internet borke so I lost some answers 2017-07-25T11:54:25Z beach: KZiemian: Tell us again what it is you are looking for. What format do you want? 2017-07-25T11:54:54Z KZiemian: I try to start again works on phoe CLUS and I need CL standard precisly for that to know which part of CLHS is not canonical and I can skep it 2017-07-25T11:55:22Z beach: The closest to the standard available for free is the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2017-07-25T11:55:36Z beach: ... or the dpAns document. 2017-07-25T11:55:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:56:11Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-25T11:57:44Z KZiemian: beach: where are the dpAns documents? 2017-07-25T11:59:35Z beach: I don't remember. Sorry. I recall that they were a bit tricky to find. I suppose phoe knows. 2017-07-25T11:59:51Z Xach: I have a copy online. 2017-07-25T12:00:06Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/dpans 2017-07-25T12:00:35Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:13:27Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:15:29Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:16:54Z KZiemian: Xach: thank you, that is what phoe once recomended to me 2017-07-25T12:17:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:23:53Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:24:01Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:24:06Z KZiemian: thank you everyone 2017-07-25T12:24:35Z KZiemian: I hope with the end of the month I will be back on foots and works on CLUS again 2017-07-25T12:24:42Z KZiemian quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-25T12:25:05Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:26:03Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T12:29:08Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T12:29:13Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:30:43Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:33:12Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T12:33:51Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:34:04Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:40:27Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:42:15Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:44:12Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T12:45:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:47:46Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T12:48:07Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:48:13Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T12:48:22Z Lowl3v3l quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T12:48:37Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:48:49Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T12:49:13Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:51:58Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T12:57:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:01:15Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:03:42Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T13:09:42Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T13:12:40Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:14:01Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:15:16Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:19:27Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T13:19:52Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:20:09Z FakePedro joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:21:56Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:24:05Z Xach: mcclim looks better than it ever has in today's release! 2017-07-25T13:24:37Z shka: wow, today is the day? 2017-07-25T13:24:40Z shka: nice :) 2017-07-25T13:24:46Z Xach: today is the day the teddy bears have their quicklisp 2017-07-25T13:24:56Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T13:25:13Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:25:37Z p_l: Xach: screenshots? :D 2017-07-25T13:26:04Z shka: Xach: more like armed bears 2017-07-25T13:26:22Z jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T13:26:38Z antoszka: …at six o'clock their commits and issues 2017-07-25T13:27:18Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:29:01Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:30:19Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z names: ccl-logbot jameser nsnc vlatkoB oleo sebboh` watersoul_ X-Scale capisce_ koenig_ tmc_ cromachina_ krasnal_ amz3 FakePedro pjb Bike damke_ EvW Lowl3v3l Jesin Kevslinger Amplituhedron Fare madmalik fkac jdz thinkpad araujo attila_lendvai sz0 DeadTrickster random-nick m00natic arrdem forgot tokenrove ult ebzzry mishoo varjag Murii hhdave _cosmonaut_ nirved raynold ryanwatkins c__ karswell` taing gingerale cross Intensity Bock dec0n megalography schoppenhauer 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z names: Arcaely__ Ellenor kjak_ Zhivago ``Erik libreman brendos pareidolia z3t0 slyrus setheus krrrcks grublet lxpz scymtym yrk mathrick zagura tonton dcluna nowhere_man DGASAU CrazyEddy sveit parjanya froggey sparkyy_ d4ryus3 gremly daemoz papachan l04m33[m] Posterdati^2 yeticry_ mingus Colleen vaporatorius moei shka aeth mulk zacts mikaelj groovy2shoes midre flazh dTal segmond Reinisch happy_gnu __main__ jeremiah__ eschatologist nullman alandipert edgar-rft 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z names: troydm PinealGlandOptic Patzy beach Oladon arbv terpri quotation vibs29 azrazalea joast bitch blt Khisanth Shinmera dmiles zaquest eMBee Guest689 zooey gigetoo ramus aindilis cods White_Flame xantoz Lord_Nightmare SAL9000 Guest89848 itruslove tephra kbtr MrBusiness foom ym minion specbot jasom Zotan mrSpec Tristam nydel newcup callstack01 jibanes nicdev davsebamse dptd copec dschoepe heurist p_l convexferret samebchase himmAllRight jself xristos 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z names: RichardPaulBck[m les drdo tkd voidlily rotty odin rjeli_ __SiCC__ HDurer_ LyndsySimon malcom2073_ lonjil SlashLife adulteratedjedi trig-ger gz_ jerme_ djinni`_ gbyers ryanbw trn phadthai msb hdurer[m] ArthurAGleckler[ hiq[m] Sovereign_Bleak thorondor[m] Jach[m] snits amerlyq caffe joeygibson redcedar rann tobel gendl Oddity whartung easye loke kushal hzp cyberlard chu mbrock uint drcode stee_3 Mandus grumble gabiruh Suzuran vsync MrWoohoo clamchowder ck_ 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z names: gadwin jackdaniel AntiSpamMeta mfiano_ sigjuice zchlyg nimiux clog arrsim zbigniew kilimanjaro mjl shaftoe_ theBlackDragon phoe brandonz butterthebuddha neuri8 tetero TeMPOraL flip214 guaqua ineiros oystewh akkad swflint TruePika j0ni raydeejay _death pacon mnoonan larsen zuz argoneus beaky Posterdati antoszka vhost- Sigyn kini chinchilla Meow-J ikopico jyc__ Lord_of_Life |3b| billstclair Merv dim cyraxjoe lemoinem ssake nopf lieven ozzloy zymurgy 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z names: Hoolootwo tomaw malm Younder eagleflo cmatei ogkloo davidkrauser drot cpape jsnell catern zkat misv AeroNotix sword dedmons fiddlerwoaroof ircbrowse dmh cpt_nemo @fe[nl]ix Aritheanie emerson Firedancer_ pchrist Xach Walex2 ft Vivek joga Blkt_ salva0 baroncharlus bend3r Fade ecraven hjudt spacepluk borodust larme Enderbsd kjeldahl Cthulhux dxtr micro_ SpurdoSparde Tordek thijso sukaeto axion pankracy askatasuna GuilOooo krator44 koisoke eschulte_ tuturto 2017-07-25T13:39:34Z names: vert2 abbe filwisher ericmath1son mklk_ TMA pok ec\ justinmcp_ isoraqathedh danlentz a7f4 sbryant djh fluter nhandler velvetcore_ e l1x drmeister felideon gko shenghi Subfusc Riviera brucem rvirding eli c0dehero GGMethos tfb alms_clozure PuercoPop Nikotiini renard_ cibs otwieracz gabot banjiewen luis benny fluxit aaronjensen nikivi jurov z0d add^_ funnel ggherdov dlowe dan64 asedeno HDurer2 angular_mike_ CEnnis91 d4gg4d_ lancetw splittist XachX 2017-07-25T13:40:04Z mood joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:42:09Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T13:44:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:45:22Z Bike: https://github.com/trivial-gray-streams/trivial-gray-streams/blob/master/package.lisp#L51 what's with the dots? 2017-07-25T13:46:01Z Bike: that's not legal even in a #-, is it? 2017-07-25T13:46:04Z jackdaniel: this one is very much complete (basdd on dpans) 2017-07-25T13:46:10Z jackdaniel: http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html 2017-07-25T13:46:17Z _death: guess it's meant to give an error 2017-07-25T13:46:42Z jackdaniel: but it may give an error even on supported implementation 2017-07-25T13:46:52Z jackdaniel: because it's not guaranteed, that ... will be read as one symbol, is it? 2017-07-25T13:47:18Z Shinmera: It's also not a very informative error either way. 2017-07-25T13:47:25Z jackdaniel: t 2017-07-25T13:47:28Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:47:56Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2017-07-25T13:48:05Z _death: clhs *read-suppress* 2017-07-25T13:48:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_sup.htm 2017-07-25T13:50:18Z _death: it even explicitly mentions "invalid uses of the dot character" 2017-07-25T13:50:34Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T13:50:43Z Bike: huh 2017-07-25T13:50:55Z Shinmera: Another weird facet I never knew existed until now. 2017-07-25T13:50:58Z _death: so it should be ok 2017-07-25T13:50:59Z Bike: alright then. still would like... an actual error 2017-07-25T13:51:14Z Bike: (if it's actually read, i mean) 2017-07-25T13:51:45Z _death: yeah 2017-07-25T13:51:55Z _death: I would also like an extensible file-length 2017-07-25T13:53:14Z cromachina_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T13:53:16Z taing quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T13:54:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T13:55:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:01:22Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-25T14:05:27Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T14:08:05Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T14:09:07Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:18:06Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:19:13Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:20:33Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T14:20:37Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T14:21:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:21:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-25T14:22:00Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T14:22:33Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:26:05Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:27:19Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:30:43Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T14:31:52Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T14:35:50Z maarhart_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:38:17Z maarhart_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T14:40:16Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T14:42:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:53:12Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:56:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-25T14:59:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:04:41Z koenig_ is now known as koenig 2017-07-25T15:07:52Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:09:38Z _death: .so files containing linker INPUT directives, and dlopen (and therefore cffi) doesn't support this idiocy 2017-07-25T15:10:18Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:10:57Z Xach: what is it for? 2017-07-25T15:12:33Z _death: from what I can see, to tell the linker to link with other libraries, though it seems possible to give any linker options 2017-07-25T15:12:56Z Bike: ...what, in an elf? 2017-07-25T15:13:21Z _death: for example `cat /lib64/libncurses.so' on archlinux gives INPUT(-lncursesw) 2017-07-25T15:13:56Z Bike: oh, shit, i think i ran into that before 2017-07-25T15:14:05Z Shinmera: .... I'm glad I haven't run into that before 2017-07-25T15:14:16Z Shinmera: Sounds like a bloody nightmare for Portacle if it ever comes up. 2017-07-25T15:14:23Z Shinmera: Or maybe it has and I didn't notice yet. God damnit. 2017-07-25T15:14:58Z _death: tried to quickload "cl-ncurses" on archlinux 2017-07-25T15:17:56Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:18:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:19:13Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:19:46Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:22:09Z _death: heh, it uses uffi 2017-07-25T15:23:18Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:24:40Z phoe: Xach: Are there popularity reports for Quicklisp, like, recent ones? 2017-07-25T15:24:52Z Xach: phoe: not recent, but i can give one a go! 2017-07-25T15:25:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T15:25:13Z Shinmera: Include some fancy bars and charts to really blow people away 2017-07-25T15:26:04Z Shinmera: For example, a pie chart of how many systems in quicklisp are written in CL versus other languages. That should prove how dominant of a language it is nowadays. 2017-07-25T15:26:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:26:52Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:27:14Z phoe: Xach: please do! 2017-07-25T15:27:21Z phoe: I know people interested in this sort of thing. 2017-07-25T15:27:25Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:27:28Z phoe: Like, from a practical point of view. 2017-07-25T15:27:53Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T15:27:56Z phoe: One person asked what are the popular libraries on Quicklisp in general because they don't know the modern Lisp ecosystem in general and just want to take a brief look at the most popular libs. 2017-07-25T15:28:15Z Xach: phoe: I suspect the last post on the topic is still fairly accurate, though. 2017-07-25T15:28:33Z phoe: Xach: last post on the topic? 2017-07-25T15:28:34Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2016/03/quicklisp-download-stats-for-february.html -- this might not be the last but it's probably similar 2017-07-25T15:28:40Z phoe: Oh - yes, that one. 2017-07-25T15:29:41Z phoe: Thanks! 2017-07-25T15:31:13Z Shinmera: Lessee, I've released about 30 libraries since then. 2017-07-25T15:31:16Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:32:03Z Shinmera: Though I heavily doubt any of them will be in the next report anyway. 2017-07-25T15:32:21Z Xach: Well, I'll make the report and we can figure it out! 2017-07-25T15:32:51Z Xach: I have lost the ability to easily connect project name to author :( 2017-07-25T15:33:06Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-25T15:33:19Z shka: oh 2017-07-25T15:33:33Z shka: prove is higher than 5am 2017-07-25T15:33:41Z rpg: Xach: Not enough metadata in the systems? 2017-07-25T15:33:56Z Xach: rpg: not enough gray matter in the skull 2017-07-25T15:34:12Z Xach: I used to be pretty good at making the connection mentally 2017-07-25T15:34:14Z phoe: Xach: I would not worry about that 2017-07-25T15:34:27Z phoe: if the libraries are popular enough, one can google them and end up with their homepages 2017-07-25T15:34:52Z rpg: In *theory* it should be easy, but not sure how many people put :author in their ASDF defsystem. Goodness knows I usually forget... 2017-07-25T15:34:56Z Xach: I'm going to link to the quickdocs pages. 2017-07-25T15:35:07Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:35:09Z Xach: rpg: It's a prerequisite of quicklisp, actually. though many systems are grandfathered in. 2017-07-25T15:35:22Z Xach: rpg: I've demanded :author, :license, and :description for new projects for several years now. 2017-07-25T15:35:28Z rpg: Xach: that's good to know, thanks. 2017-07-25T15:35:33Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:36:13Z Shinmera: Sadly :homepage is often missing. 2017-07-25T15:39:06Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:40:49Z d4ryus4 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:43:30Z d4ryus3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:47:35Z _cosmonaut_1 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:48:12Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:49:53Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:50:25Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T15:56:55Z Fare: if you want new metadata fields, a new ASDF release is a good time to get them. 2017-07-25T15:57:01Z Fare: which is, soon. 2017-07-25T15:57:51Z Shinmera: I don't want even more fields, I want people to actually use them :) 2017-07-25T15:58:01Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-25T15:58:59Z rpg adds "fix ASDF defsystem template" to near-infinite todo list 2017-07-25T16:03:12Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:03:47Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T16:04:00Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:04:27Z catern quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:04:35Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T16:07:52Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:08:27Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:08:32Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T16:10:52Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:11:59Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:12:42Z gargaml joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:13:07Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:13:38Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:13:44Z tfeb quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T16:14:07Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:15:59Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:16:35Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:17:15Z vsync quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2017-07-25T16:17:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T16:17:45Z vsync joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:19:14Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:24:43Z catern joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:27:37Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:29:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:31:59Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:32:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:32:39Z Xach: Shinmera, phoe: https://www.quicklisp.org/tmp/stats.html 2017-07-25T16:32:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:32:53Z choosegoose joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:32:55Z Xach: That really means "the month of june". 2017-07-25T16:32:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:33:40Z Xach will push to blog soonish 2017-07-25T16:35:03Z Fare: Xach: can you upgrade quicklisp's asdf from 2.26 to 3.1.7 ? What are issues with it? 2.26 is really a pain to maintain upgrading from... and upgrade from it means having to reconfigure asdf 2017-07-25T16:35:19Z Xach: Fare: Implementations already have ASDF 3.0. 2017-07-25T16:35:23Z Xach: ++ 2017-07-25T16:35:25Z Fare: 3.1 2017-07-25T16:35:44Z Fare: except those that don't, and then I get bad bug requests (e.g. old CLISP release... from 2010) 2017-07-25T16:35:51Z Fare: (CLISP hasn't had a release since) 2017-07-25T16:35:56Z Xach: Anyway, no. 2017-07-25T16:36:01Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:36:05Z Xach: I am content to let implementations provide the asdf they want their users to have. 2017-07-25T16:36:16Z Fare: then why include asdf at all in quicklisp? 2017-07-25T16:36:23Z Xach: And content to suggest CLISP users not use CLISP if it is a pain. 2017-07-25T16:36:25Z Fare: can you wholly remove it? 2017-07-25T16:36:30Z Xach: Maybe! 2017-07-25T16:36:32Z Fare: yay 2017-07-25T16:36:40Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:36:43Z catern quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:36:45Z Fare: I'd like to declare ASDF 2 fully dead. 2017-07-25T16:37:23Z Fare: (also 3.0 without 3.1 extensions, actually) 2017-07-25T16:37:44Z Fare: 3.1.2 is from 2014 2017-07-25T16:39:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:41:45Z catern joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:42:49Z gremly quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-07-25T16:43:13Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:44:53Z Fare: In any case, ASDF "best practices" recommend idioms not compatible with ASDF 2 (at least for testing), and lots and lots of systems (including CFFI, IOLib, etc.) require ASDF 3.1 or later. 2017-07-25T16:45:07Z Shinmera: Xach: some of my systems have actually disappeared out of it 2017-07-25T16:45:18Z Shinmera: Time to embrace obscurity 2017-07-25T16:45:42Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T16:47:19Z Shinmera: Fare: I've had issue tickets on my own libraries before due to outdated ASDFs :/ 2017-07-25T16:52:33Z larsen: Xach: is it possible to tell modules quickloaded directly from those that are loaded to satisfy a dependency? (I reckon it's probably a difficult notion to define precisely) 2017-07-25T16:54:12Z larsen: s/modules/libraries/ 2017-07-25T16:56:40Z gremly joined #lisp 2017-07-25T16:57:00Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:01:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:01:48Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:04:01Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:04:49Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:04:59Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T17:05:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:05:44Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:09:45Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:22:31Z ``Erik quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-25T17:22:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T17:23:11Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:24:45Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:28:03Z Xach: larsen: there's no way to tell right now. 2017-07-25T17:28:22Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:28:28Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:32:17Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:32:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:35:10Z Xach: larsen: it would require some client updates to do requests differently 2017-07-25T17:36:59Z phoe: Xach: I think it would be enough for your client to fetch dependencies through a different URL that you can then monitor separately 2017-07-25T17:37:07Z Xach: phoe: correct. 2017-07-25T17:37:52Z Xach: But, that would require some care, as I can picture other dists using an url structure that can't be harmlessly amended 2017-07-25T17:38:13Z phoe: Yes, correct. 2017-07-25T17:38:33Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:38:54Z phoe: And then again, some people might actually depend on (ql:quickload :foo) pulling a lot of dependencies that they'd install anyway, so this way might actually miss some legitimate hits. 2017-07-25T17:39:25Z phoe: I think a combination of both "installs + dependencies" and these raw downloads could provide better insight, if anything. 2017-07-25T17:39:54Z Xach: there are also probably 6000 CI runs every month too. 2017-07-25T17:42:11Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:42:13Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:45:05Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:47:19Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:49:45Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:51:48Z flip214: larsen: well, any system not listed in ql-dist:dependency-tree would have to have been loaded manually... 2017-07-25T17:52:36Z oleksiyp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-07-25T17:52:36Z vlatkoB_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-07-25T17:53:53Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:53:54Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:54:21Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:55:24Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T17:57:14Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-25T17:59:34Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:01:35Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:02:40Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:03:32Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:03:50Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:03:58Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:06:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:06:48Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T18:09:00Z fkac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T18:10:42Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:12:30Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T18:14:53Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:15:33Z michael_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:17:46Z whoman: is Clack used more now than Hunchentoot ? 2017-07-25T18:18:12Z michael_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T18:18:26Z Shinmera: Clack is not a webserver. 2017-07-25T18:18:41Z Shinmera: It's a sort of middle ware, to which Hunchentoot can be a backend. 2017-07-25T18:19:01Z whoman: ohhh 2017-07-25T18:19:43Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-25T18:20:29Z Shinmera: Though nowadays there's also Lack and I don't really know how Lack does even less than Clack does or whatnot. 2017-07-25T18:20:47Z Shinmera: Fukamachiware confuses me quite a bit more often than not. 2017-07-25T18:21:15Z whoman: hmm. i will stick with hunchentoot by itself i think 2017-07-25T18:21:37Z Shinmera: There's also Radiance, which does as little as Clack, or more than it, depending on what you want :^) 2017-07-25T18:22:11Z whoman relates to the japanese lispers and their projects =) 2017-07-25T18:22:45Z whoman: and sometimes Ceramic for the other side 2017-07-25T18:22:57Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:25:26Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:25:32Z whoman: going to check out radiance and clack/lack after groceries 2017-07-25T18:28:52Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:29:07Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:29:48Z Fare wonders what to do with that dozen or so systems in Quicklisp that haven't merged asdf 3.2 fixes after 1-4 months 2017-07-25T18:29:53Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:31:28Z Shinmera: Not much that can be done besides waiting patiently or abandoning all hope. 2017-07-25T18:32:50Z Fare: or forking 2017-07-25T18:33:14Z Shinmera: I don't think Xach wants to switch to an alternate unless the author agrees. 2017-07-25T18:33:44Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:34:40Z Fare: what if the author is silent after 4 months and hasn't committed in years? 2017-07-25T18:34:48Z Fare: anyway. 2017-07-25T18:34:52Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:36:23Z dyelar1 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:36:28Z dyelar1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T18:37:10Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:38:28Z oleksiyp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:38:30Z mishoo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T18:39:26Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-25T18:40:58Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:41:00Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:45:52Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:46:28Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:47:59Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:49:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:51:22Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:52:23Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T18:54:15Z WhiskyRyan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T18:57:52Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T18:59:14Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T18:59:18Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:00:10Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:00:54Z tmc_ is now known as tmc 2017-07-25T19:03:32Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:10:04Z samlamamma joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:10:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:10:52Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T19:21:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:24:22Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:25:46Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:26:13Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:26:20Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:27:41Z r3dux joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:30:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:30:40Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:34:31Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:34:59Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:40:52Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:40:57Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:41:21Z samlamamma quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T19:41:21Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:43:57Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:46:45Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-25T19:49:36Z whoman: Shinmera btw, decided to experiment with Radiance 2017-07-25T19:49:47Z Shinmera: Cool :) 2017-07-25T19:49:59Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:51:06Z whoman: =) 2017-07-25T19:51:14Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-25T19:53:01Z r3dux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T19:59:22Z r3dux joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:01:30Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T20:03:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:03:50Z whoman: wow, ironclad takes as longer to compile and load than everything else ive installed from quicklisp today combined 2017-07-25T20:06:57Z r3dux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-25T20:07:02Z Shinmera: It does some heavy macro stuff. 2017-07-25T20:08:03Z whoman: radiance breaks fairly quickly. clack time 2017-07-25T20:08:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T20:08:28Z Shinmera: Would be nice if you said what didn't work rather than calling it broken. 2017-07-25T20:08:56Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T20:09:20Z whoman: i wouldnt call it broken. i would say that it broke, as that is what it did 2017-07-25T20:09:41Z whoman: (ql:quickload .... (define-page from official example ... error 2017-07-25T20:09:59Z Shinmera: What kind of error 2017-07-25T20:10:36Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T20:10:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:11:16Z whoman: i dont know enough CL to decrypt: sorry i am retrieving the error now 2017-07-25T20:12:31Z whoman: Module # requested but while the package exists, it is not a module. [Condition of type MODULARIZE:NOT-A-MODULE] 2017-07-25T20:12:54Z whoman: from the first command after in-package, at: https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance/ 2017-07-25T20:13:05Z Shinmera: The hell is that package 2017-07-25T20:13:16Z whoman: just a package i made with nothing in it 2017-07-25T20:13:24Z whoman: fresh image, defpackage, in-package 2017-07-25T20:13:40Z whoman: idk where the term MODULE came from suddenly 2017-07-25T20:14:00Z Shinmera: So wait, did you like (defpackage hoovy (:use :cl :rad-user)) or ? 2017-07-25T20:15:41Z whoman: should i be in rad-user? i thought that was an example package name 2017-07-25T20:15:45Z Shinmera: Because that's not what the tutorial tells you to do. 2017-07-25T20:15:55Z Shinmera: It's not an example name, it's there on purpose. 2017-07-25T20:16:02Z Shinmera: Similar to how there's cl-user, there's rad-user. 2017-07-25T20:16:05Z whoman: (in-package :rad-user ... ? 2017-07-25T20:16:07Z whoman: yes 2017-07-25T20:16:29Z Shinmera: Yeah, so just do exactly what the example says. 2017-07-25T20:17:09Z whoman: alright. i see now, i have to use rad-user package. hmmmm. 2017-07-25T20:17:31Z Shinmera: You can make your own packages, but that's not necessary for a quick example. 2017-07-25T20:17:37Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:17:54Z Shinmera: The in-depth example that's linked goes through the "proper" procedure. 2017-07-25T20:18:05Z whoman: define-page was quite the quick example. i am sort of wanting to move ahead and build onto that by using my own packages. 2017-07-25T20:18:15Z whoman: ahh, alright =) 2017-07-25T20:20:31Z whoman: hrm templates... im going to do everything in cl-who, parenscript, and cl-css 2017-07-25T20:20:49Z whoman: thanks for your help Shinmera ! sorry for being a newbie, soon i will have my own flow 2017-07-25T20:21:02Z Shinmera: Sure, no problem. 2017-07-25T20:21:30Z Shinmera: I wrote it at all, so I have I get concerned when people say it breaks. 2017-07-25T20:21:38Z Shinmera: *I wrote it all 2017-07-25T20:21:47Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T20:21:49Z Shinmera: What the balls happened to that sentence 2017-07-25T20:21:54Z whoman: oh! cool. i will use the hell out of it then. =) 2017-07-25T20:22:00Z Shinmera: Lemme try again: I wrote Radiance, so I get concerned when people say it breaks. 2017-07-25T20:22:04Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:22:54Z whoman: ouu codemirror! i intend to use that as well in this metaproject =) 2017-07-25T20:23:45Z ircbrowse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T20:24:26Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:25:59Z phoe_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:26:12Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-25T20:26:13Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T20:26:14Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2017-07-25T20:26:27Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:30:55Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:35:11Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T20:37:00Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T20:37:09Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:41:22Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:42:11Z kajo joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:43:13Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T20:49:48Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T20:51:00Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T20:51:52Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T20:52:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:52:15Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:52:55Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-25T20:55:07Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-25T20:59:30Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-25T21:01:37Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-25T21:02:53Z choosegoose quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-25T21:10:49Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T21:11:40Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-25T21:11:48Z nsnc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T21:12:00Z Oladon joined #lisp 2017-07-25T21:14:37Z nsnc joined #lisp 2017-07-25T21:18:17Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-07-25T21:26:32Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T21:29:26Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-25T21:30:13Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T21:31:41Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T21:35:21Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-25T21:36:19Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T21:37:18Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-25T21:37:43Z Xach: Shinmera: did you break lichat-protocol? i can't build just now 2017-07-25T21:38:24Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-25/failure-report/lichat-protocol.html#lichat-protocol 2017-07-25T21:38:24Z Shinmera: I did but then I fixed it again. 2017-07-25T21:38:37Z Shinmera: Yeah that should be pushed already 2017-07-25T21:38:47Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T21:38:50Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T21:39:15Z Shinmera: The changes to the protocol allowed me to (just now!) implement file sending https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/889963002048466945 2017-07-25T21:39:16Z Xach: ok. caught it at the right/wrong time. 2017-07-25T21:39:53Z oleksiyp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T21:40:22Z Shinmera: I did a force push with the fixes back when I fixed it, though I'm guessing that doesn't matter, yeah? 2017-07-25T21:44:51Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-25T21:46:49Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-25T21:49:34Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-25T21:50:10Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T21:51:08Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T21:53:08Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T21:55:12Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:00:58Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:04:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T22:08:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:17:06Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:18:59Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T22:23:46Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:24:56Z davidkrauser left #lisp 2017-07-25T22:27:35Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T22:28:50Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:29:51Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-25T22:30:35Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T22:32:35Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:37:13Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T22:39:00Z z3t0 left #lisp 2017-07-25T22:39:01Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:41:05Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-25T22:47:53Z Xach: Shinmera: it might matter, because that can hang up my "git pull" 2017-07-25T22:48:08Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:49:40Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-25T22:51:06Z Xach: Yep, that's busting my pull 2017-07-25T22:51:10Z Xach: Why force? 2017-07-25T22:55:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-25T22:59:00Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-25T23:04:02Z z3t0: how does one deal with files in cl? 2017-07-25T23:04:06Z z3t0: is there a recommended library 2017-07-25T23:04:25Z pjb: There are file I/O functions in the CL package. 2017-07-25T23:04:46Z pjb: and a few file system and pathname management functions too. 2017-07-25T23:05:04Z z3t0: alright thanks 2017-07-25T23:05:14Z z3t0: found this http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/files-and-file-io.html 2017-07-25T23:05:55Z pjb: Not really a library, but you can learn. There are a few libraries, like cl-fad to deal with implementation dependent things such as physical pathnames. 2017-07-25T23:06:35Z pjb: If you want to access specific file systems, you may have to use platform specific API (eg. to access all the POSIX paths on a unix file system). 2017-07-25T23:08:19Z z3t0: thanks, im really just trying to read some files and parse them, its all plaintext 2017-07-25T23:08:24Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:08:52Z pjb: Once you have them in memory, it's normal data. There are libraries for parser generators, regexps, etc… 2017-07-25T23:15:18Z Xach: z3t0: with-open-file is the usual thing to use, then read, read-line, read-char, read-byte, read-sequence 2017-07-25T23:15:21Z Xach: depending on what you need. 2017-07-25T23:16:15Z z3t0: thanks Xach thats what i am reading on hyperspec right now 2017-07-25T23:16:27Z pjb: or the various library accessors: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:…-file-contents 2017-07-25T23:16:34Z z3t0: is there a way to download the lisp documentation offline? 2017-07-25T23:16:57Z pjb: Yes, the hyperspec is available for download. 2017-07-25T23:17:03Z pjb: You can even apt-get it on debian systems. 2017-07-25T23:17:48Z z3t0: found it thanks 2017-07-25T23:17:55Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 2017-07-25T23:21:26Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:25:19Z z3t0: this is also pretty neat https://www.hexstreamsoft.com/libraries/clhs/ 2017-07-25T23:26:52Z jeremiah__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T23:26:53Z jeremiah_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:27:10Z afdafsdaf joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:28:25Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:28:38Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-25T23:29:47Z eelster joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:29:57Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-25T23:32:13Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:33:20Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:35:06Z axion: pjb: cl-fad I thought was mostly deprecated by the more available uiop, no? 2017-07-25T23:35:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:36:10Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T23:36:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:37:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-25T23:37:47Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:40:13Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:41:22Z z3t0: How do I learn write "good" lisp code? 2017-07-25T23:41:56Z z3t0: Right now I have read through a third of practical common lisp and am hacking around on a basic project that generates static sites by parsing other files 2017-07-25T23:42:07Z Bike: read and write actual code 2017-07-25T23:42:23Z z3t0: Throughout I am learning new things and that there are at least 10 ways to do any particular task 2017-07-25T23:42:34Z z3t0: Bike: but how do i know if my code is any good? 2017-07-25T23:42:53Z z3t0: Are there some open source projects with exceptionally good code that I could read up on/contribute to? 2017-07-25T23:43:01Z axion: By practicing, asking questions, and peer review 2017-07-25T23:43:18Z axion: Same as any other mastery I suppose 2017-07-25T23:43:21Z Bike: come back to it in six months, see if you can still modify it 2017-07-25T23:43:22Z Bike: that kind of thing 2017-07-25T23:43:42Z z3t0: axion: is there a good place to ask for peer reviews? (I don't want to bother busy people haha) 2017-07-25T23:43:52Z axion: paste.lisp.org and linking here 2017-07-25T23:44:03Z Bike: here's ok, we're all extremely judgmental 2017-07-25T23:44:16Z z3t0: Bike: right now i am trying to create something that will be useful to others in the community and so will hopefully gain some criticisms and other ideas 2017-07-25T23:44:27Z z3t0: ah cool, il post a link once i have something decent 2017-07-25T23:44:37Z axion: Be warned, you will receive lots of critiscm if asked for it 2017-07-25T23:44:45Z axion: criticism* 2017-07-25T23:44:52Z z3t0: thats a good thing :) 2017-07-25T23:44:58Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:45:18Z eelster: Lisp taught me to be a better programmer in a lot of other languages as well. It really makes you think functionally. It's fantastic. 2017-07-25T23:45:19Z pjb: z3t0: read PAIP, it teaches good lisp code. 2017-07-25T23:46:52Z z3t0: pjb: thanks will bookmark 2017-07-25T23:47:33Z _death: z3t0: http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 2017-07-25T23:49:57Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-25T23:52:10Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-25T23:52:11Z z3t0: thanks _death 2017-07-25T23:52:56Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:53:59Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:54:12Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-25T23:56:45Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-25T23:57:04Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-25T23:59:57Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T00:01:57Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T00:02:24Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T00:02:50Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T00:04:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T00:09:12Z afdafsdaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T00:11:55Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T00:14:52Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:14:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:31:32Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:35:35Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:40:56Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:40:56Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-26T00:40:57Z akkad: is there an mp3 lib to actually play an mp3? 2017-07-26T00:43:58Z z3t0: Something like portaudio? It has a cl binding http://www.cliki.net/cl-portaudio 2017-07-26T00:45:08Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T00:46:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T00:50:09Z z3t0: what is flet used for? It seems like another way to just write a lambda function? 2017-07-26T00:50:40Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:51:41Z Xach: z3t0: it is used for convenient local named functions. 2017-07-26T00:52:15Z Xach: Lambda functions are invoked with funcall or apply. local functions can be called like global functions. 2017-07-26T00:52:20Z z3t0: I'm trying to understand the code at https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/blob/master/src/content.lisp#L72 2017-07-26T00:52:32Z z3t0: but it doesnt seem to me that the flet function is named? 2017-07-26T00:53:09Z Xach: z3t0: it is named get-next-line. 2017-07-26T00:53:42Z z3t0: oh i see, it follows a similar syntax to *let* 2017-07-26T00:53:44Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:53:54Z Xach: somewhat similar, yes. 2017-07-26T00:54:16Z Xach: in that particular case, it could have omitted INPUT and used STREAM directly, as that is what it uses in all uses. 2017-07-26T00:54:55Z forgot quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-26T00:55:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T00:55:59Z forgot joined #lisp 2017-07-26T00:59:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:02:46Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:06:05Z blt` joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:06:50Z z3t0: true 2017-07-26T01:06:52Z blt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:10:25Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:11:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:14:07Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:14:48Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:18:58Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:22:34Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:22:41Z sjl: akkad: you might want Harmony https://shirakumo.github.io/harmony/ 2017-07-26T01:22:54Z sjl: portaudio is likely way lower-level than you're looking for 2017-07-26T01:23:13Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:23:49Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:24:10Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:25:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:26:17Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:26:47Z z3t0: I'm trying to learn how to debug cl using slime, sbcl and emacs 2017-07-26T01:26:50Z z3t0: I'm following http://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ 2017-07-26T01:27:08Z z3t0: But I can't seem to get a menu where I can step in the debugger 2017-07-26T01:27:34Z z3t0: I have a break statement which calls up a debugger, but it only lets me restart, abort, continue or retry 2017-07-26T01:29:13Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T01:29:37Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:30:06Z z3t0: nevermind, recompiling after setting the debug level works 2017-07-26T01:32:19Z Bike: yeah, having all those tools necessitates putting things in the compiled code, which reduces its efficiency, so it won't do it unless debug is three 2017-07-26T01:33:20Z z3t0: should i be using proclaim or declaim? 2017-07-26T01:33:42Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:34:37Z z3t0: I have this to test http://sprunge.us/OcFS 2017-07-26T01:34:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-26T01:35:02Z Bike: usually declaim. 2017-07-26T01:35:20Z z3t0: but the break point only gives me the general 4 options (continue, retry, abort) 2017-07-26T01:35:23Z Bike: try macroexpanding the declaim form. it just expands into a slightly inconvenient to write call to proclaim. 2017-07-26T01:35:52Z Bike: maybe it doesn't insert stepping stuff for such a simple function. 2017-07-26T01:36:31Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:37:10Z z3t0: hmm 2017-07-26T01:38:37Z blt` is now known as blt 2017-07-26T01:38:55Z z3t0: I'm trying to step through http://sprunge.us/QdAf 2017-07-26T01:39:03Z z3t0: but again theres no stepping code 2017-07-26T01:39:34Z blt quit (Changing host) 2017-07-26T01:39:34Z blt joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:40:05Z [X-Scale] joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:41:04Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:43:19Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:43:19Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale 2017-07-26T01:43:57Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T01:44:04Z Bike: i don't know, sorry. i never really use the stepper myself. 2017-07-26T01:46:28Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:47:51Z sjl: z3t0: which implementation? 2017-07-26T01:48:47Z z3t0: sjl: sbcl 2017-07-26T01:49:01Z sjl: e.g. in SBCL debug 3 might not be enough: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Debugger-Policy-Control 2017-07-26T01:49:20Z sjl: debug has to be greater than space/speed/compilation-speed as well 2017-07-26T01:50:03Z sjl: other than than, I'm not sure. I don't use the stepper either 2017-07-26T01:53:26Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-26T01:56:22Z z3t0: sjl: how do you debug then? (maybe im doing it the "wrong" way?) 2017-07-26T01:58:17Z Bike: break functions into small, almost pure functional components and test their i/o, is the main thing for me, but i don't think stepping is wrong 2017-07-26T01:59:02Z z3t0: What I am trying to do is understand the logic of that flet function and from my experience in js i usually step through 2017-07-26T02:01:37Z Bike: the inner function is completely independent - like, you could make it a separate defun 2017-07-26T02:01:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T02:01:48Z Bike: so you can do so and try it for some inputs and outputs 2017-07-26T02:02:16Z z3t0: Im confused by this part http://sprunge.us/OYEd 2017-07-26T02:02:38Z z3t0: I dont see how subtracting the positions gives anything useful in seq 2017-07-26T02:02:39Z Bike: you know what let does, right? 2017-07-26T02:02:43Z z3t0: yes 2017-07-26T02:02:53Z Bike: ok, right. so, the function is called slurp-remainder 2017-07-26T02:03:10Z z3t0: right 2017-07-26T02:03:17Z Bike: if i'm correct, it takes the entire file after the current position, and puts it in a string 2017-07-26T02:03:24Z z3t0: correct 2017-07-26T02:03:29Z z3t0: i just dont see how it does 2017-07-26T02:03:30Z Bike: the length of that string is the length of the file minus the length up to the position you're already at 2017-07-26T02:03:38Z z3t0: right 2017-07-26T02:03:53Z Bike: so that's why there's a subtraction. 2017-07-26T02:04:03Z z3t0: the contents of the string is something like "^@^@^@^@^@^@" which im not sure what that is... 2017-07-26T02:04:08Z Bike: null character. 2017-07-26T02:04:13Z z3t0: oh 2017-07-26T02:04:14Z Bike: uninitialized data. 2017-07-26T02:04:17Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T02:04:30Z Bike: make-string makes a new string of the given length. in this case the contents are not specified. 2017-07-26T02:04:31Z z3t0: ah that makes sense 2017-07-26T02:04:36Z z3t0: right 2017-07-26T02:04:41Z Bike: ...because they are immediately written into; read-sequence does that 2017-07-26T02:04:44Z Bike: clhs make-string 2017-07-26T02:04:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_stg.htm 2017-07-26T02:04:46Z Bike: clhs read-sequence 2017-07-26T02:04:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 2017-07-26T02:05:08Z z3t0: but how does read-sequence start at the correct place? 2017-07-26T02:05:25Z z3t0: I understand it has the correct size, but what sets its start position since start is not specified? 2017-07-26T02:05:29Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:05:32Z z3t0: Is it that the stream being read knows where it has been read to? 2017-07-26T02:05:33Z Bike: file streams have a position as part of their being. 2017-07-26T02:05:36Z Bike: Yes. 2017-07-26T02:05:37Z z3t0: ah 2017-07-26T02:05:42Z z3t0: thanks that makes sense now 2017-07-26T02:05:53Z Bike: that's what file-position returns. 2017-07-26T02:06:03Z z3t0: I see 2017-07-26T02:08:08Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:08:08Z vhost- joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:09:25Z z3t0: Its amazing how many people are put off by lisps parens but its the parens that makes it such a breeze to edit 2017-07-26T02:10:59Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:14:54Z z3t0: im off for now thanks for all the help! 2017-07-26T02:15:20Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:15:36Z Bike: by 2017-07-26T02:17:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T02:19:30Z Urist joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:19:31Z ircbrowse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T02:19:33Z ryanbw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:19:53Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:19:57Z ozzloy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:20:02Z ssake quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:20:04Z TruePika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:20:06Z davsebamse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:20:06Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:20:10Z ssake joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:20:19Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:20:22Z Guest89848 quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-26T02:21:00Z ircbrowse_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:21:15Z giraffe joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:21:39Z giraffe is now known as Guest17892 2017-07-26T02:25:04Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:25:04Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2017-07-26T02:25:04Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:25:18Z nullman joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:27:49Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:31:43Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:32:19Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:36:11Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:40:06Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:40:32Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-26T02:42:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:44:02Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:44:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:44:49Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:45:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:45:37Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:45:57Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:46:25Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:46:42Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:47:11Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:47:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:47:46Z wally1337 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:48:00Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T02:52:43Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:57:59Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T02:58:25Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T03:08:47Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:09:16Z jleija joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:09:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-26T03:11:15Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-26T03:11:34Z jleija joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:11:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:12:48Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T03:14:10Z Oladon: Evening, beach :) 2017-07-26T03:16:59Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:19:35Z Guest689 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T03:20:10Z wooden joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:20:16Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:27:20Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:32:49Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:32:57Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:52:07Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-26T03:55:10Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T03:57:22Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T03:58:33Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T03:59:12Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:04:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T04:05:19Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-26T04:07:11Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:07:14Z brahma joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:09:03Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:13:19Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:19:16Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:19:24Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-26T04:23:57Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:24:26Z Fare: z3t0: do NOT use cl-fad. Use UIOP instead. 2017-07-26T04:24:57Z Fare: z3t0, also see Google's Common Lisp Style Guide. 2017-07-26T04:26:52Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T04:26:56Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:32:33Z z3t0: Fare: I was planning on just using the built in io anyways 2017-07-26T04:32:41Z z3t0: Il check out the style guide 2017-07-26T04:45:21Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T04:46:35Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T04:48:33Z Fare: z3t0: uiop is almost as good as builtin, but much more portable and has more useful functions 2017-07-26T04:48:49Z Fare: it does all that cl-fad does, except more robustly and more portably. 2017-07-26T04:49:22Z z3t0: I see, though I wonder how can it be more portable than built in if built in is a part of the standard? 2017-07-26T04:49:59Z Fare: hahahahaha 2017-07-26T04:50:08Z Fare: because the standard is full of holes 2017-07-26T04:50:15Z Fare: especially regarding pathnames 2017-07-26T04:51:11Z Fare: so every implementation does its own thing, and you can't rely on it at all if your code is to be portable. 2017-07-26T04:53:22Z beach: Fare: It would be good to extend UIOP with functions that can provide reliable results with patterns other than "*". 2017-07-26T04:54:05Z beach: I recall a comment saying something like "If you use a pattern other than * then you get into implementation-defined territory". 2017-07-26T04:54:28Z beach: I am talking about the function for listing directory entries. 2017-07-26T04:55:37Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:57:57Z benrob0329 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T04:59:52Z Fare: beach, not going to happen. For that, use IOlib. 2017-07-26T05:00:38Z beaky quit (Quit: WeebChat 1.8) 2017-07-26T05:00:42Z beach: Isn't that the one that relies on some FFI code? 2017-07-26T05:00:48Z Fare: yes 2017-07-26T05:01:38Z Fare: also, UIOP is limited by using the builtin pathname functions and types 2017-07-26T05:04:49Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:05:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T05:06:35Z beaky joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:06:58Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T05:09:02Z z3t0: thanks for the info 2017-07-26T05:09:26Z wally1337: What do you people use lisp for these days? 2017-07-26T05:09:34Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T05:09:39Z maarhart_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:09:40Z adolf_st_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-26T05:10:27Z beach: wally1337: Any programming task. 2017-07-26T05:11:57Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T05:12:14Z beach: wally1337: For example, I have this application: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/static/media/screenshots/transclime.png to help me learn Vietnamese. 2017-07-26T05:12:22Z maarhart_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T05:12:30Z wally1337: Something similar to an asp.net based website? 2017-07-26T05:14:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T05:15:20Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:16:31Z beach turns glassy-eyed. 2017-07-26T05:19:12Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:23:49Z akkad: and for iolib use libfixposix 2017-07-26T05:23:54Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-26T05:26:30Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:31:23Z parjanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T05:40:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:46:52Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T05:50:57Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:56:03Z loke: It's funny... For some time I have randomly looked at c.l.l. I think it finally died. 2017-07-26T05:58:07Z bjorksung joined #lisp 2017-07-26T05:58:27Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T05:59:28Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T05:59:38Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T06:02:40Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:04:03Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:05:08Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T06:05:24Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:05:42Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:06:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:06:50Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:07:20Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T06:07:33Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:10:35Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:12:44Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:14:30Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:16:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T06:17:00Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T06:17:17Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:19:07Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:22:10Z yidrasilll joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:25:14Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:25:33Z doesthiswork left #lisp 2017-07-26T06:26:50Z brahma quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T06:28:09Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:28:33Z Ven is now known as Guest24574 2017-07-26T06:29:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:29:26Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:34:44Z Shinmera: Xach: because I wanted to amend the commit, which required a force-push. I often push too early, it's a bad habit. 2017-07-26T06:36:30Z Shinmera: Xach: Anyway, when dealing with remote repositories in a script, it's often best to do `git fetch origin master && git reset --hard origin/master` than `git pull` as it'll deal properly with force pushes. 2017-07-26T06:39:10Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:41:31Z z3t0: is there a standards compliant way to execute a number of function in parallel 2017-07-26T06:41:58Z z3t0: right now I have dolist iterating over a loop and calling a function with some information from the particular element, can this be parallelized? 2017-07-26T06:45:14Z beach: z3t0: You can start a new thread for each call. 2017-07-26T06:46:07Z beach: z3t0: There is a compatibility library that makes threads look implementation independent. It is called Bordeaux-threads. 2017-07-26T06:46:18Z z3t0: thanks il take a look 2017-07-26T06:51:44Z z3t0: Okay I seem to be doing something stupid... 2017-07-26T06:51:52Z z3t0: Function signature: make-thread (function &key name) 2017-07-26T06:51:58Z z3t0: my code: (bordeaux-threads:make-thread #'(lamdba () (print "hide")) :name "hello-func") 2017-07-26T06:52:14Z z3t0: Its complaining that the lambda statement is not a function name, but i thought I had specified the name using :name ..? 2017-07-26T06:52:57Z Guest24574 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T06:53:19Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:53:38Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:54:06Z wally1337 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T06:54:31Z beach: lamdba? 2017-07-26T06:54:56Z bjorksung: hello beach. 2017-07-26T06:55:10Z bjorksung: a little birdy mentioned you were a multician. 2017-07-26T06:55:15Z beach: z3t0: I think you misspelled "lambda" 2017-07-26T06:55:26Z beach: bjorksung: Indeed. 2017-07-26T06:55:32Z z3t0: oh... 2017-07-26T06:55:35Z z3t0: thanks ahha 2017-07-26T06:55:52Z bjorksung: have you run the emulator? 2017-07-26T06:56:09Z beach: Yes, briefly. I even managed to start Emacs. It was amzing. 2017-07-26T06:56:12Z beach: amazing, even 2017-07-26T06:56:18Z bjorksung: aha. 2017-07-26T06:56:37Z phoe_: (bt:make-thread #'(lambda () (print "hello")) :name "hello-func") works here 2017-07-26T06:56:53Z beach: phoe_: z3t0 misspelled "lambda". 2017-07-26T06:56:57Z bjorksung: I managed that much. and found out gcos/gtss was on there and run that too. 2017-07-26T06:57:04Z bjorksung: though gcos is not nearly as friendly. 2017-07-26T06:57:11Z phoe_: beach: yes - that's what I fixed, and it works 2017-07-26T06:57:18Z beach: bjorksung: I never used GCOS actually. 2017-07-26T06:57:43Z bjorksung: no one admits to ever using it in public :-) 2017-07-26T06:58:14Z beach: Honeywell Bull tried to convince us that we wanted GCOS instead of Multics. But we insisted. :) 2017-07-26T06:58:30Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-26T06:58:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T06:59:01Z bjorksung: did you ever use maclisp on it? 2017-07-26T06:59:09Z beach: Yes, absolutely. 2017-07-26T06:59:27Z beach: Mostly for Emacs extensions, but still. 2017-07-26T07:00:36Z z3t0: I have a brutish naive multithread call here http://sprunge.us/ZPHJ 2017-07-26T07:00:59Z z3t0: But for some reason the thread number never seems to increase (it should be ~800) even though there are a lot of files 2017-07-26T07:01:07Z bjorksung: i have a bunch of other questions about it if you don't mind, may I msg you? 2017-07-26T07:01:16Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-26T07:01:22Z bjorksung: just don't want to pollute the logs here. 2017-07-26T07:01:23Z bjorksung: thank you. 2017-07-26T07:02:34Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:03:51Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T07:13:01Z z3t0: Does anyone know what https://github.com/rpav/fast-io means by "octet vector" 2017-07-26T07:13:40Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T07:13:44Z beach: z3t0: A vector with element-type being integers that fit in 8 bits. 2017-07-26T07:13:55Z z3t0: so a byte vector? 2017-07-26T07:14:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:14:48Z Zhivago: Not all bytes are octets, but approximately. 2017-07-26T07:15:03Z eelster is now known as eelster[away] 2017-07-26T07:15:17Z beach: z3t0: The Common Lisp standard does not require bytes to be 8 bits. 2017-07-26T07:15:33Z z3t0: oh i didnt know that, cool! 2017-07-26T07:15:43Z Zhivago: Neither does C, for that matter. :) 2017-07-26T07:17:40Z z3t0: yeah haha thats where i learnt byte = 8 bits 2017-07-26T07:18:20Z Zhivago: Where did you learn that? 2017-07-26T07:19:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T07:20:00Z z3t0: somewhere in a c book 2017-07-26T07:20:17Z z3t0: though it was mainly about 8bit avrs so i think that might have confused me 2017-07-26T07:21:38Z z3t0: does anyone have experience using fast-io 2017-07-26T07:22:04Z z3t0: I'm trying to figure out how i would adapt it for writing files, currently i am using (write path stream) 2017-07-26T07:23:22Z Zhivago: Well, files are usually octets these days, so would write-byte do what you want? 2017-07-26T07:24:24Z Zhivago: (if so, check out write-sequence also) 2017-07-26T07:25:37Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:27:53Z sfa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-26T07:28:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T07:28:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:30:12Z z3t0: Im stuck on loading the file 2017-07-26T07:30:42Z z3t0: http://sprunge.us/LjNK this is what i have so far but it is saying unexpected type STREAM datum: 512 2017-07-26T07:31:44Z beach: z3t0: You need to distinguish between character streams and byte stream. 2017-07-26T07:31:59Z z3t0: oh 2017-07-26T07:32:11Z beach: By default, a file is opened into a character stream. 2017-07-26T07:34:18Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:34:37Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T07:35:22Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:36:35Z z3t0: how would i change it to a byte stream? 2017-07-26T07:36:58Z beach: clhs open 2017-07-26T07:36:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 2017-07-26T07:37:20Z beach: z3t0: The options for OPEN can be used with WITH-OPEN-FILE as well. 2017-07-26T07:37:36Z z3t0: thanks got it 2017-07-26T07:39:22Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T07:40:11Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:42:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:51:42Z z3t0: ah! so it seems i have been wasting my time optmising file writes... its the file reads that is taking 95% of the time... 2017-07-26T07:52:01Z loke: z3t0: fortogt the frst rule of optimisation? 2017-07-26T07:52:09Z z3t0: dont :) haha 2017-07-26T07:52:18Z z3t0: let me wallow in shame 2017-07-26T07:52:52Z z3t0: okay so from what i can gather its an external library that is hogging the processor 2017-07-26T07:53:47Z Trystam joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:54:20Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T07:55:51Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T07:55:57Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T07:56:07Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-26T07:56:11Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2017-07-26T07:59:30Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:00:52Z eelster[away] is now known as eelster 2017-07-26T08:00:52Z eelster is now known as eelster[away] 2017-07-26T08:04:40Z pjb: z3t0: usually, it's only the first file read that takes time. Try reading the file several times! :-) 2017-07-26T08:04:59Z z3t0: i have pjb it just seems that the markdown parser being used is terribly slow :( 2017-07-26T08:05:13Z z3t0: im looking at https://github.com/chjj/marked/blob/master/lib/marked.js right now and trying to figure out how to port it 2017-07-26T08:05:30Z z3t0: a bit lost what half the odd constructs are ... https://github.com/chjj/marked/blob/master/lib/marked.js#L36 2017-07-26T08:05:59Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:06:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T08:07:54Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T08:08:18Z pjb: z3t0: probably translates into (funcall … (funcall (funcall (replace block.list) /bull/g, block.bullet) "hr", "\\n+…") … nil) 2017-07-26T08:08:30Z z3t0: ah... 2017-07-26T08:08:38Z z3t0: the author might as well use lisp 2017-07-26T08:08:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:08:44Z pjb: Yep. 2017-07-26T08:09:00Z z3t0: il try and have it ported in a day or two 2017-07-26T08:09:09Z pjb: The function returns a closure until nil is passed in argument then it returns the final result. 2017-07-26T08:09:13Z z3t0: im trying to essentially write a lisp version of jekyll 2017-07-26T08:09:31Z pjb: You should probably write a javascript translator… 2017-07-26T08:09:53Z pjb: (to avoid errors in translation). 2017-07-26T08:10:32Z z3t0: im mostly just taking the logic and not literally rewriting the code 2017-07-26T08:10:55Z z3t0: back in a bit 2017-07-26T08:14:56Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:17:10Z z3t0: Does Common Lisp have any built in regexp functionality 2017-07-26T08:19:40Z flip214: z3t0: look at cl-ppcre 2017-07-26T08:21:50Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T08:22:29Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:24:13Z z3t0 left #lisp 2017-07-26T08:24:14Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:26:21Z beach: z3t0: Why does it have to be built in? 2017-07-26T08:29:34Z z3t0: Beach , No reason just wondering if there was 2017-07-26T08:30:42Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:32:10Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:32:57Z z3t0: I've read about how common lisp can generate very fast code, comparable to c, is that realistic? 2017-07-26T08:33:08Z pjb: yes 2017-07-26T08:33:15Z pjb: http://www.cliki.net/Performance 2017-07-26T08:33:54Z pjb: built-in = hard-wired = often not what you want… 2017-07-26T08:34:00Z pjb: or need. 2017-07-26T08:39:51Z beach: z3t0: Check out the work of Didier Verna: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/research/publications/papers/verna.06.elw.pdf 2017-07-26T08:40:31Z z3t0: beach: thanks il take a look 2017-07-26T08:40:47Z beach: Just the title of that paper answers your question. :) 2017-07-26T08:40:50Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T08:41:13Z z3t0: hahah yeah 2017-07-26T08:41:28Z z3t0: not to mention development speed in c is pretty slow 2017-07-26T08:41:37Z beach: Ah, that paper is in the list that pjb provided a link to. 2017-07-26T08:42:20Z beach: z3t0: Short version: If you provide the same information to the Common Lisp compiler as you HAVE TO provide to a C compiler, then the code is very likely comparable in speed. 2017-07-26T08:42:30Z beach: ... provided it's a good Common Lisp compiler, of course. 2017-07-26T08:44:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:45:19Z z3t0: got it 2017-07-26T08:49:05Z alandipert quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2017-07-26T08:49:06Z sebboh` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T08:49:56Z sebboh` joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:54:40Z antoszka: I need to analyze some RFC2822 e-mails using CL. As in: scan the headers (create KVPs from them) and do some mime-part unpacking (extract filenames and file types of the parts). Which libraries would you recommend that? cl-mime or mime4cl for the MIME disassembly? 2017-07-26T08:54:50Z antoszka: What about the headers? 2017-07-26T08:55:23Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T08:55:28Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-26T08:57:33Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T09:05:18Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:05:31Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:07:26Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:09:59Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T09:10:08Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:11:20Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:13:50Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T09:14:37Z dmh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:14:56Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:16:17Z TeMPOraL quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:21:59Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:10Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:10Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:10Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:10Z quotation quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:10Z convexferret quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:10Z Merv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:11Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:11Z e quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T09:22:11Z flip214: antoszka: there's a COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.RFC2822.RFC2822 2017-07-26T09:22:11Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z beach: antoszka: I can't remember whether mel-base does something like that. 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z flip214: no idea what that does, though. just what a quick google search found. 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag.) 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z GuilOooo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z quazimodo quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z temporal1 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z quotation_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z Merv_ is now known as Merv 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z quotation_ quit (Changing host) 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z quotation_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:22:12Z kushal is now known as Guest78989 2017-07-26T09:22:16Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:22:45Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:23:46Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:23:59Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:24:29Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T09:24:33Z flip214: antoszka: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.rfc2822.rfc2822.html looks like the docs 2017-07-26T09:25:01Z nicdev quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:25:26Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T09:26:05Z antoszka: flip214, beach – thanks guys, though I've just noticed that cl-mime has a parse-headers function which returns a nice alist of all the headers. 2017-07-26T09:26:11Z antoszka: which is perfect for my purpose. 2017-07-26T09:26:35Z antoszka: It should also handle my mime needs, so i'll have all in a single library. 2017-07-26T09:27:10Z flip214: antoszka: very well. thanks for the feedback! 2017-07-26T09:27:21Z beach: Good. As I recall, parsing stuff like that is a pain. 2017-07-26T09:27:58Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:29:42Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:30:22Z antoszka: beach: Yeah, especially that there are some unobvious quirks and multi-line issues with the RFC headers. 2017-07-26T09:30:45Z antoszka: So that'd actually be quite a lot of work to do it manually with (multiline) regexes. 2017-07-26T09:31:53Z Guest78989 is now known as kushal 2017-07-26T09:32:03Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-07-26T09:32:03Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:32:51Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T09:34:09Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:34:11Z e joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:34:28Z p_l: z3t0: btw, C only requires that sizeof(char)==1, not sure if it requires 8bits for char 2017-07-26T09:37:10Z z3t0: the new standard is more explicit with specific data types 2017-07-26T09:39:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:41:00Z p_l: I rememmber it mostly because there was this one oddball cpu which made it problematic - it had bit-addressed memory, so an 8bit char properly should be sizeof(char)==8 2017-07-26T09:41:53Z Shinmera: "char" really becomes a misnomer in that case, doesn't it 2017-07-26T09:42:14Z beach: It always was. 2017-07-26T09:43:12Z Shinmera: well yes, but even more so when you can't even fit ASCII into it 2017-07-26T09:43:28Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:43:42Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T09:45:30Z p_l: yeah, C generally doesn't deal well with memory that isn't addressed in multiplies of (size 1) chars 2017-07-26T09:50:25Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:51:07Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T09:53:39Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:54:08Z pjb` joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:54:26Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T09:57:11Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:57:28Z shiranuidong joined #lisp 2017-07-26T09:57:30Z shiranuidong quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-26T10:03:19Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-26T10:05:21Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:05:27Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T10:09:16Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-07-26T10:10:38Z rotty joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:10:49Z pjb: COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.RFC2822.RFC2822 is not a complete parser, just a few utility. There are other libraries that are more complete. check with cliki. 2017-07-26T10:16:39Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T10:17:44Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:17:44Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T10:20:37Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:21:21Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T10:21:56Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T10:22:34Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T10:32:21Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:35:11Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T10:36:17Z Xach: attila_lendvai: hu.dwim.perec has defgeneric lambda list issue for me 2017-07-26T10:37:11Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-26/failure-report.html has it (and more) 2017-07-26T10:37:42Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:41:17Z scymtym: Xach: they probably already fixed the issues. see https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/35957238/ 2017-07-26T10:43:40Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T10:45:05Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:45:23Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T10:47:22Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T10:47:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:47:36Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:48:05Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:49:32Z phoe_: one day I need to play with Lisp using 9-bit bytes 2017-07-26T10:49:37Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T10:50:29Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:50:42Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:51:50Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:53:37Z shka: phoe_: you won't see any difference 2017-07-26T10:53:57Z loke: shka: You can 2017-07-26T10:54:26Z BW^-: what's the point with the Find/Union thing in disjoint sets?? i see some literature and videos but what's the use case.. so .Find is supposed to tell you what. ranking at union time to decrease the search depth of the , works how?? 2017-07-26T10:55:30Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T10:56:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:58:35Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-26T10:59:03Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:00:42Z Xach: scymtym: the fixes haven't made it into quicklisp-pulled sources as of 12 hours ago 2017-07-26T11:01:12Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:02:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:07:19Z p_l: phoe_: well, I have some code spelunked somewhere which deals with bytes from 1 to 64 bit long... 2017-07-26T11:07:47Z p_l: phoe_: also consider that SBCL's standard-char is, iirc, 21bit long 2017-07-26T11:09:55Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:11:41Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:12:02Z convexferret joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:12:50Z phoe_: I really can't stop being amazed by Lisp's ability to make read-time and compile-time assertions. 2017-07-26T11:13:47Z scymtym: Xach: ok. maybe a problem with their git repositories or the quicklisp project definitions, then. the DEF{METHOD,GENERIC} improvements seem to affect at least one other system, though 2017-07-26T11:14:04Z Xach: yes 2017-07-26T11:14:44Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-07-26/failure-report/clml.html#clml is one 2017-07-26T11:15:45Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T11:15:58Z scymtym: if possible, i would like to keep the improvement if it doesn't cause too much trouble for you 2017-07-26T11:16:06Z random-nick: is the MOP part of the official specification? 2017-07-26T11:16:10Z Xach: https://github.com/mmaul/clml/blob/master/time-series/src/ts-anomaly-detection.lisp#L110 2017-07-26T11:16:18Z phoe_: oh 2017-07-26T11:16:22Z phoe_: haha 2017-07-26T11:16:25Z Xach: scymtym: what happened with the clsql loop stuff? 2017-07-26T11:16:27Z phoe_: it's the bug I filed :) 2017-07-26T11:16:29Z Xach: random-nick: no 2017-07-26T11:16:41Z Xach: random-nick: but you can use it via the closer-mop project as though it was 2017-07-26T11:16:53Z phoe_: random-nick: MOP is not a part of the ANSI Common Lisp standard, but is nonetheless adopted and supported widely enough 2017-07-26T11:17:10Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:17:36Z scymtym: Xach: probably https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/commit/cdbde685bcb7371d45621752e5284194b4e8feaa 2017-07-26T11:17:45Z scymtym: i.e. not my fault :) 2017-07-26T11:22:19Z dmh joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:25:21Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:26:48Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:28:11Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:32:17Z phoe_: (defun foo (bar) (let ((bar (copy-list bar))) ...)) 2017-07-26T11:32:17Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T11:32:21Z phoe_: Is this good Lisp style? 2017-07-26T11:32:52Z phoe_: Basically - I want to mutate a copy of a list, since the original is immutable, e.g. comes from a &REST somewhere. 2017-07-26T11:33:02Z phoe_: Or should I copy-list explicitly before calling FOO? 2017-07-26T11:39:58Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:40:31Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:41:07Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:43:09Z attila_lendvai: Xach: forgot to pull to the live repos, should be fixed now (perec and meta-model were involved) 2017-07-26T11:43:18Z Xach: fantastico 2017-07-26T11:43:40Z antoszka: phoe_: I'd say, copying the list ok, but change the name, to make your intention clearer. 2017-07-26T11:43:57Z attila_lendvai: Xach: well, sorry about that, I should have remembered it 2017-07-26T11:44:30Z Xach: I don't usually change the name - I often do (setf bar (copy-list bar)) or something like that. 2017-07-26T11:44:54Z Xach: Yet another axis of style fingerprinting! 2017-07-26T11:45:31Z _death: phoe: it's ok to copy to the list inside foo.. naming it may not be necessary if the function is made to do one thing only 2017-07-26T11:46:05Z phoe_: Actually - passing something to DEFUN creates a new variable binding, correct? 2017-07-26T11:46:17Z phoe_: So if I just pop from that list, the original does not get modified, correct? 2017-07-26T11:46:31Z _death: right, if you (pop bar) the binding changes 2017-07-26T11:46:34Z phoe_: Like, (defun foo (bar) (pop bar)) 2017-07-26T11:46:43Z phoe_: (let ((baz '(1 2 3)) (foo baz)) 2017-07-26T11:46:57Z phoe_: Then the original value of BAZ does not change, right? 2017-07-26T11:48:48Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:49:22Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T11:50:31Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-26T11:52:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:53:55Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:54:15Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:55:12Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:56:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:57:01Z Xach: right. 2017-07-26T11:57:28Z Xach: but (setf (cdr bar) ...) would change baz. 2017-07-26T11:58:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-26T11:59:05Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T11:59:39Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:00:02Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:01:18Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T12:02:19Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:03:11Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:05:56Z pjb: (setf (car bar) (cadr bar) (cdr bar) (cddr bar)) ; but it cannot remove the last element. 2017-07-26T12:10:36Z _death: carbarcdrbar is magic 2017-07-26T12:12:11Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:12:40Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:13:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:13:36Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:14:56Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:15:09Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:16:21Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:16:26Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:19:00Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T12:19:03Z exprosic joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:21:23Z exprosic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T12:23:32Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:29:53Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:34:22Z phoe_: carbarcadrbarcdrbarcddrbar 2017-07-26T12:35:18Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T12:37:06Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:37:52Z Shinmera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG62zay3kck 2017-07-26T12:40:37Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:41:37Z pjb: (incf Shinmera) 2017-07-26T12:44:00Z phoe_: (incf *) 2017-07-26T12:44:03Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:44:10Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:44:49Z bjorksung quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:48:49Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T12:50:20Z edgar-rft: A lisper went into a foo. But he was wrong. He wanted a bar. 2017-07-26T12:51:14Z antoszka: Now he ain't got nil. 2017-07-26T12:55:04Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:55:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:58:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T12:59:19Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-26T12:59:49Z beach: Shinmera: That is totally fantastic! 2017-07-26T13:00:07Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I'm looking at that ql output. why does perec get loaded when loading hu.dwim.util.test ? to the best of my knowledge that shouldn't happen. 2017-07-26T13:01:29Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I mean, is there something ql specific magic, or I should dig in my own garden to find out why perec gets loaded? 2017-07-26T13:01:39Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:02:29Z phoe_: beach: It's like typing English, just without a spacebar. 2017-07-26T13:03:01Z attila_lendvai: Xach: never mind, I found it, it's :hu.dwim.util/production. maybe I should move that code away from there into another system, or address the TODO to get rid of the perec dependency 2017-07-26T13:03:21Z Xach: attila_lendvai: ok! 2017-07-26T13:04:14Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T13:04:51Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T13:13:33Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:17:54Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:18:25Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T13:20:37Z attila_lendvai has fixed a couple of errors he found in that ql build log 2017-07-26T13:20:39Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T13:20:51Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:25:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:26:07Z Xach: phew 2017-07-26T13:27:15Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:28:55Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:28:55Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-07-26T13:28:55Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:29:35Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:37:34Z yidrasilll quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T13:39:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:40:09Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T13:43:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T13:45:31Z dyelar joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:45:37Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:52:33Z MrMc joined #lisp 2017-07-26T13:53:13Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T13:55:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:00:32Z AxelAlex quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:01:49Z temporal1 is now known as TeMPOraL 2017-07-26T14:04:32Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:07:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:07:46Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:09:17Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:13:54Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:15:29Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:16:40Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:16:52Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:17:01Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:24:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:25:39Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-26T14:25:58Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:32:03Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:42:35Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:43:39Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:44:10Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:51:01Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:51:14Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:51:37Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T14:53:22Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:54:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-26T14:55:46Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:58:17Z phoe_: well, it's a sad day 2017-07-26T14:58:29Z warweasle: phoe_: Dare I ask? 2017-07-26T14:58:31Z beach: For Poland? 2017-07-26T14:58:41Z phoe_: beach: nah, just for me 2017-07-26T14:58:48Z phoe_: I've browsed the Lisp testing frameworks and found none that did what I want 2017-07-26T14:59:13Z beach: phoe_: I concluded the same thing, which is why I no longer use any testing framework. 2017-07-26T14:59:36Z phoe_: beach: you do test, though? 2017-07-26T14:59:42Z beach: Of course. 2017-07-26T14:59:55Z beach: My favorite testing technique is random generation of test cases. 2017-07-26T15:00:07Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:00:09Z beach: It makes it unnecessary to enumerate tons of cases. 2017-07-26T15:00:18Z phoe_: Some kind of fuzzing? 2017-07-26T15:00:22Z beach: No. 2017-07-26T15:01:03Z beach: Just random generation of test cases. It is probably not applicable in all situations, but for what I do it is fine. 2017-07-26T15:01:03Z phoe_: Tell me more. 2017-07-26T15:01:14Z phoe_: How do you generate test cases? 2017-07-26T15:01:14Z beach: For example, my lambda-list parsers. 2017-07-26T15:01:28Z beach: I randomly generate valid lambda lists. 2017-07-26T15:01:39Z phoe_: Ooh. I see. 2017-07-26T15:01:49Z beach: I parse them with the "real" code, and with a simple, slow, stupid parser. 2017-07-26T15:01:55Z beach: They have to give the same results. 2017-07-26T15:02:03Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:02:29Z beach: Same thing for Cluffer. I implemented the protocol with the "real" code, and with a simple, slow, stupid implementation in the form of lists. 2017-07-26T15:02:41Z beach: Then I generate random protocol operations and I compare the results. 2017-07-26T15:03:21Z Zhivago: The tricky bit is to prove that your random generator has relatively uniform coverage of the space. 2017-07-26T15:03:26Z beach: This testing technique makes for much less code, and I am much more confident that I have complete coverage. 2017-07-26T15:04:28Z beach: Zhivago: It doesn't have to be uniform. However, there are some other issues. For example, with complex data structures, all rare cases have to occur. 2017-07-26T15:04:41Z beach: I use test coverage in parallel to check that. 2017-07-26T15:05:05Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:05:14Z Shinmera: Test generation coupled with evaluation of branch/statement/flow coverage would be very interesting. 2017-07-26T15:05:20Z phoe_: There was this CLHS chapter about "possible numbers". 2017-07-26T15:05:23Z Zhivago: And the edge cases, I guess ... 2017-07-26T15:05:41Z phoe_: Like - is 1/2 a standard Lisp number? 2017-07-26T15:05:47Z phoe_: Like, just evaluating "1/2"? 2017-07-26T15:05:51Z Fare: yes 2017-07-26T15:05:51Z beach: Yes. 2017-07-26T15:05:55Z phoe_: Thanks. 2017-07-26T15:05:56Z Zhivago: Which brings you back to pretty much the test cases you should be writing normally, with some icing on top. 2017-07-26T15:05:58Z pjb: (type-of 1/2) #| --> ratio |# 2017-07-26T15:06:02Z beach: Maybe you mean "potential numbers"? 2017-07-26T15:06:07Z phoe_: Oh yes, that exactly. 2017-07-26T15:07:46Z phoe_: Oh well. 2017-07-26T15:07:52Z phoe_: I actually think that I will need to stand upon the shoulders of a giant that is 1am. 2017-07-26T15:07:58Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T15:08:23Z phoe_: And create not a test framework, because Lisp has enough of these, but a test case management tool of sorts. 2017-07-26T15:09:36Z Cthulhux quit (Quit: ne praeteriverit priusquam obesa cantaverit) 2017-07-26T15:10:01Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:10:23Z Shinmera: phoe_: What was your problem with Parachute? 2017-07-26T15:12:07Z phoe_: Shinmera: too huge. :P 2017-07-26T15:12:28Z phoe_: No, actually - I'm thinking of how to integrate semitextual test cases into it. 2017-07-26T15:12:54Z Shinmera: Ah, cool! Let me know if you need any help. 2017-07-26T15:13:06Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-26T15:13:58Z glamas quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-26T15:14:08Z MrMc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:15:53Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:16:55Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:17:02Z phoe_: As I said before - I want to be able to declare test case information like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351712 2017-07-26T15:17:28Z phoe_: And to have this information pop up in the debugger, or in the test reports. 2017-07-26T15:17:50Z phoe_: And to be able to retrieve the test case information for further processing, such as HTML generation. 2017-07-26T15:17:58Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:19:52Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:23:49Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:28:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:28:33Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-26T15:28:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:31:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-26T15:31:52Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:32:55Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T15:34:01Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:40:16Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:40:39Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:42:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:43:40Z d4ryus4 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:49:31Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-26T15:58:55Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:59:52Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T16:10:24Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:11:57Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:15:27Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:16:01Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T16:18:14Z bjorksung joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:20:00Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_free_l 2017-07-26T16:20:15Z warweasle_free_l is now known as ww_free_lunch 2017-07-26T16:26:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:27:51Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:29:14Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-26T16:29:50Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T16:32:49Z attila_lendvai left #lisp 2017-07-26T16:34:16Z ww_free_lunch is now known as warweasle 2017-07-26T16:36:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:37:12Z _cosmonaut_1 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:37:50Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T16:37:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:40:42Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T16:41:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T16:42:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T16:42:51Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T16:43:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:46:25Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:48:18Z mwsb joined #lisp 2017-07-26T16:49:37Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T16:54:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T16:59:47Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:00:11Z Ven is now known as Guest92612 2017-07-26T17:01:28Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:01:37Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:02:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:04:07Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:05:42Z Arcaely__ is now known as Arcaelyx 2017-07-26T17:08:29Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2017-07-26T17:10:32Z Guest92612 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T17:10:57Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T17:11:11Z random-nick joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:12:16Z quotation_ is now known as quotation 2017-07-26T17:13:37Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:14:49Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T17:17:27Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2017-07-26T17:17:58Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T17:18:02Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T17:18:31Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:21:04Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T17:21:46Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:22:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:22:24Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T17:22:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:22:43Z alandipert joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:23:01Z Ven is now known as Guest78208 2017-07-26T17:23:25Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:24:48Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:26:46Z drcode quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-26T17:27:33Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T17:28:33Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:28:43Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:32:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:32:08Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:34:33Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2017-07-26T17:36:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:36:39Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:41:35Z phoe_: I'll most likely turn CL-PROTEST into something that can use multiple testing frameworks, somehow. 2017-07-26T17:45:05Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:47:09Z Shinmera: Fuck, Protest is a really good name for a test framework 2017-07-26T17:47:12Z Shinmera: wish I had thought of that 2017-07-26T17:51:24Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-26T17:52:58Z phoe_: ha! 2017-07-26T17:52:59Z phoe_: https://github.com/phoe/cl-protest 2017-07-26T17:53:33Z phoe_: it was inspired by how Javascript frameworks are made - it is important to have a name and a logo before you have any unit tests 2017-07-26T17:53:34Z Shinmera: Why the cl- prefix, though? 2017-07-26T17:53:45Z phoe_: Common Lisp PROtocol and TESTcase manager 2017-07-26T17:53:53Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-26T17:53:55Z Shinmera: Yeah but that doesn't explain the prefix 2017-07-26T17:54:07Z phoe_: and because a ton of libraries have the cl- prefixes 2017-07-26T17:54:20Z phoe_: or include the "cl" substring in their name 2017-07-26T17:54:21Z Shinmera: Usually those libraries are bindings. 2017-07-26T17:54:42Z phoe_: ...well, you have a point. 2017-07-26T17:55:00Z Shinmera: the cl- implying that they're the cl version of something else. 2017-07-26T17:55:11Z Shinmera: but anyhoo, no big deal. 2017-07-26T17:55:28Z phoe_: I'll keep it in mind for the future. 2017-07-26T17:57:21Z Xach: Yay, clml has fixed its sbcl issue. 2017-07-26T17:57:40Z Xach: I don't like cl prefixes very much. 2017-07-26T17:57:44Z Xach: clml is ok i guess. 2017-07-26T17:57:46Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:06:04Z ryanbw quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:06:41Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:07:41Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:09:03Z phoe_: Well, it's not like anyone uses this library. 2017-07-26T18:09:08Z phoe_: I can rename it to protest, no problem. 2017-07-26T18:09:28Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T18:10:04Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:11:04Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:13:28Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:14:28Z _death: wait until someone uses it, so that he can protest 2017-07-26T18:14:52Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:15:36Z modula joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:17:20Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:22:20Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-26T18:23:12Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T18:24:35Z dlowe: ☞ Objection! 2017-07-26T18:30:51Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:43:24Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T18:48:22Z quotation: Hey there :) 2017-07-26T18:48:39Z quotation: I'm looking for someone experienced with CEPL I can bug :p 2017-07-26T18:48:58Z Shinmera: Baggers is on occasionally 2017-07-26T18:49:03Z Shinmera: He's streaming right now. https://www.twitch.tv/baggers___ 2017-07-26T18:51:01Z quotation: Heis who I'd like to speak to. Thanks Shinmera, such a lovely stream 2017-07-26T18:52:17Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:52:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:53:54Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:54:01Z quotation: What paper is he working from? 2017-07-26T18:55:35Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:56:05Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T18:57:43Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T18:58:09Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-26T18:58:20Z Zotan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:01:31Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:07:42Z Guest78208 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T19:11:13Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:16:02Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:16:03Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2017-07-26T19:16:03Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:16:09Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:17:05Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T19:18:59Z ptdel joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:41:10Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:43:42Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-26T19:46:18Z Xach feels the thrill of hacking 2017-07-26T19:46:45Z Shinmera: What are you working on? 2017-07-26T19:49:56Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T19:50:53Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T19:51:13Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T19:52:03Z Xach: Some Quicklisp user documentation, at the "quick start" this afternoon. 2017-07-26T19:52:18Z Shinmera: Nice 2017-07-26T19:52:42Z Xach: part of it is defining a little system that does something trivial but somewhat hackable and covering a few different aspects of quicklisp and CL itself. 2017-07-26T19:53:05Z Xach: a web UI with dynamic PNG graphics in a few paragraphs of code. 2017-07-26T19:55:46Z Xach: 90s style but something to play with, anyway! 2017-07-26T19:56:08Z Shinmera: If it works, it works. 2017-07-26T20:05:51Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T20:07:14Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T20:11:32Z phoe_: If it doesn't, file a bug. 2017-07-26T20:11:43Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-26T20:11:47Z phoe_: ♫ 2017-07-26T20:12:19Z Shinmera: Filing a bug during a presentation is to be avoided 2017-07-26T20:12:20Z aindilis joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:18:12Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T20:20:31Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-26T20:23:56Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:24:05Z jasom: Xach: is it a variation on your meme png generator from back in the day? 2017-07-26T20:24:24Z Xach: jasom: nah, just an inline PNG with a random size/color circle in it. 2017-07-26T20:24:42Z Xach: I really wanted something so simple that everything you see on screen is easy to map back to its line of code. 2017-07-26T20:24:43Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:25:17Z slark: hello lispers 2017-07-26T20:25:35Z joast joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:25:40Z rumbler31: does anyone know why apis that expose udp sockets don't give the application a stream to read, instead insist on returning vectors, and even then, only the amount of the packet that you asked for while discarding the rest? 2017-07-26T20:26:47Z slark: what do you think as a rule of thumb to use (gensym) for all macro parameters to avoid one of the leak describe in chap 8 of PCL ? 2017-07-26T20:28:46Z Bike: you should use gensym for any bindings you generate. you might not use a macro parameter that way. 2017-07-26T20:28:48Z slark: rumbler31: not sure what you want to mean, but as udp is not a reliable way to exchange information this is probably the reason 2017-07-26T20:29:37Z slark: rumbler31: what apis are you talking about ? 2017-07-26T20:30:31Z slark: Bike: humm so i have to use gensym everytime in a macro 2017-07-26T20:30:52Z Shinmera: rumbler31: Because that's how UDP works. It gives you messages, not a continuous stream. 2017-07-26T20:31:07Z Bike: that's not what i said, exactly 2017-07-26T20:31:12Z rumbler31: usocket, and I think ccl's socket api does the same. at least from what I'm seeing, repeat calls to socket-receive on a udp socket give me the beginning of new packets. If the whole packet is available somewhere, just queue them up. at the lowest level I'm sure that there is some vector backing a tcp socket, its just that the kernel will give you the vector in the right order 2017-07-26T20:31:36Z Shinmera: Huh? 2017-07-26T20:31:46Z rumbler31: but is there really a use case for wanting part of the data in a packet and discarding the rest, as provided for by the api? 2017-07-26T20:31:46Z Shinmera: UDP and TCP are explicitly separate. 2017-07-26T20:32:16Z rumbler31: yes. but streams are an abstraction. the underlying data is still a vector even if thats not exposed to the user 2017-07-26T20:32:49Z Shinmera: UDP does not give you a stream, it's as simple as that. UDP gives you messages that may or may not arrive and they may arrive in any order. 2017-07-26T20:33:00Z slark: Bike: i am sorry to ask again.. what did you say then ? 2017-07-26T20:33:06Z Xach: tcp sequences those vectors and delivers them to the user level in a guaranteed order (or it doesn't give you any data at all) 2017-07-26T20:33:14Z slark: Bike: (i am a real beginner as you see..) 2017-07-26T20:33:17Z Xach: so a stream interface makes sense. 2017-07-26T20:33:57Z Xach always liked the "Interconnections" terminology of "best effort" rather than "unreliable" 2017-07-26T20:34:16Z rumbler31: yes, but if I go to receive from a udp socket, a whole packet was received, and unless I ask for the entire thing, the next time I call receive will return the next new vector, not what was left over and "not asked for" from the first vector 2017-07-26T20:35:04Z Bike: slark: you want to use gensym when a macroexpansion establishes some bindings. like, if the macro expands into (let ((foo ...)) ...), and foo is not supposed to be used by the user, it should be a gensym. 2017-07-26T20:35:34Z slark: Bike: thx a lot 2017-07-26T20:36:23Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:36:27Z _death: rumbler31: udp has no packets, but datagrams.. it has no connection, so it is stateless, "fire and forget" 2017-07-26T20:37:11Z slark: rumbler31: you can still create your own protocol based on udp but it is overkill as tcp already exists and it will be still not reliable cause you can just works on the "application" layer 2017-07-26T20:37:18Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:37:30Z rumbler31: a datagram doesn't span a packet (afaik correct me if i'm wrong) so I consider datagram equivalent to a network packet 2017-07-26T20:38:06Z _death: rumbler31: tcp is a much more heavyweight protocol that creates a "virtual circuit", i.e. a connection between endpoints 2017-07-26T20:38:15Z rumbler31: those parts I get 2017-07-26T20:38:31Z slark: rumbler31: well i think you can say this, a network packet which doesnt care of his predecessor or the sucessor 2017-07-26T20:38:36Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2017-07-26T20:38:40Z slark: rumbler31: the only advantage is it is fast 2017-07-26T20:39:04Z Shinmera: rumbler31: I'm not sure what part you don't get anymore. Are you asking about the length argument to socket-receive? 2017-07-26T20:39:04Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T20:39:17Z _death: rumbler31: tcp builds "packets" from one or more datagrams 2017-07-26T20:39:29Z rumbler31: I understand that udp has no guarantees. at the moment i'm wondering why, at the api level, I have to provide an expected size, which if there is more data than this gets dropped on the floor instead of being available for the next call for "more data" 2017-07-26T20:39:40Z rumbler31: Shinmera: yes basically 2017-07-26T20:40:03Z rumbler31: Shinmera: and further why if there is more data left than this max size that the api drops it on the next receive call 2017-07-26T20:40:24Z Shinmera: Because socket-receive receives a single datagram. 2017-07-26T20:40:36Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:40:45Z _death: rumbler31: since the maximum size of a udp datagram is 64K, you can just pass that 2017-07-26T20:41:57Z Shinmera: As for why there's a length, your buffer might be less than the udp max size, so you can fill only what you need. 2017-07-26T20:42:08Z rumbler31: is it the case that if I haven't called socket-receive, that datagrams will get dropped on the floor, or will datagrams be queued (until some max os buffer size), st that socket-receive *will* return all datagrams seen by the interface to this point in time? 2017-07-26T20:42:36Z slark: as far as i know there si always an os buffer 2017-07-26T20:42:43Z Shinmera: datagrams that you do receive should be queued by your OS, but there's probably parameters in your OS that control this behaviour. 2017-07-26T20:42:55Z juanrgar joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:43:04Z slark: when you can socket-receive you read first the OS buffer 2017-07-26T20:43:11Z slark: call* 2017-07-26T20:43:24Z rumbler31: Shinmera: so if you fill only what you need, what I'm trying to figure out is what kind of protocol would benefit from the default usage of "drop the rest of the datagram on the floor" vs "queue the rest of the datagram for a subsequent read" 2017-07-26T20:43:24Z _death: rumbler31: there is a queue, but you cannot rely on receving all datagrams, on receiving them as sent, on receiving them not being duplicated.. 2017-07-26T20:43:55Z rumbler31: _death: I understand that. 2017-07-26T20:44:03Z Shinmera: rumbler31: a datagram encompasses a "message". If you don't need the max size of the udp datagram for your messages you can read less than that. 2017-07-26T20:44:18Z Shinmera: That's all. 2017-07-26T20:44:19Z rumbler31: but whatever I don't read, if there is more, is discarded for me 2017-07-26T20:44:23Z _death: rumbler31: they may also be out of order 2017-07-26T20:44:38Z Shinmera: Yeah, because the operation is to read one datagram 2017-07-26T20:45:14Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T20:45:49Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:46:13Z _death: rumbler31: like I said, it is a stateless protocol.. so why should a udp implementation keep state for partial datagrams 2017-07-26T20:46:18Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:47:23Z TMA: _death: 64K: that's for IPv4; for IPv6 there can be UDP jumbograms of up to ~4G, IIRC 2017-07-26T20:47:47Z _death: TMA: yes, I'm still living in the world of IPv4 2017-07-26T20:48:31Z rumbler31: if the datagrams arrive out of order, I will still need access to the whole packet, because I can not simply peek the datagram. If I peek it and I don't need it, great. but if I peek it and I need it, then I lost the rest of the data 2017-07-26T20:48:35Z foom2 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:48:52Z rumbler31: so i'm already going to have to ask the api to give me the whole packet 2017-07-26T20:49:03Z Bike: you can get the whole packet by specifying the maximum size, i think they said? 2017-07-26T20:49:43Z _death: rumbler31: then you have your own queue.. 2017-07-26T20:50:09Z rumbler31: Bike: yes. I know that I *can* get all the data at once 2017-07-26T20:50:16Z rumbler31: but the api design forces this on the user 2017-07-26T20:50:20Z Shinmera: UDP just gives you a thing to copy contents out of a buffer. Why is this so difficult. 2017-07-26T20:50:55Z rumbler31: what purpose is there, because there must be some, for a protocol that only cares about part of a datagram? 2017-07-26T20:50:55Z Bike: rumbler31: i don't see a problem with that, looking in from outside. 2017-07-26T20:51:25Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T20:51:46Z _death: rumbler31: that's the way it goes with udp, you tend to need more guarantees and you pay for what you need by building it yourself.. at some point it may cross the threshold where tcp may make sense 2017-07-26T20:52:10Z Shinmera: rumbler31: The length is there for the length of /your/ buffer, not the length of the datagram. 2017-07-26T20:52:14Z rumbler31: I apologize, I must be unable to convey my issue clearly 2017-07-26T20:52:31Z rumbler31: Shinmera: I know. 2017-07-26T20:52:53Z Shinmera: Right, so if you know your messages are only going to be 10 bytes, you make a 10 byte buffer and say the length is 10 2017-07-26T20:52:59Z Bike: your problem is that you don't see why the OS doesn't have a storage for packets inbetween receive calls? right? 2017-07-26T20:54:10Z Shinmera: Or you make a buffer that's more than 10 and store multiple things in it by still specifying the length as 10. 2017-07-26T20:55:09Z rumbler31: Bike: yes. although it probably doesn't have to be the os. Shinmera: yes, although really the datagram could be any size I suppose, or so i've been told. 2017-07-26T20:55:32Z Shinmera: Yeah but you control the datagrams because you send them using your protocol 2017-07-26T20:55:36Z Shinmera: So you better know how big they are 2017-07-26T20:56:06Z Bike: so you could have a protocol where all messages are going to be ten bytes. and then you can save a couple picoseconds not bothering with partial reads and such 2017-07-26T20:56:40Z rumbler31: but thats up to the network, I might have sent 1000 bytes but the network could have made them arrive as 2 500 byte datagrams. and at that point there is no problem, I just read 500 expected more, read more 2017-07-26T20:56:59Z Shinmera: No it could not have. 2017-07-26T20:57:07Z rumbler31: no? 2017-07-26T20:57:08Z Shinmera: You either receive a full datagram or you don't. 2017-07-26T20:57:17Z Shinmera: You can't send more than a data gram over UDP either. 2017-07-26T20:57:28Z |gaz| joined #lisp 2017-07-26T20:57:41Z Shinmera: One send = one datagram 2017-07-26T20:57:58Z Shinmera: Again, UDP does not implement a stream. 2017-07-26T20:58:14Z Shinmera: It gives you messages which have an upper bound in size. You send a message and you might get it at the other end. 2017-07-26T20:58:40Z rumbler31: I know it doesn't implement a stream. but If I write the max datagram size, I do not receive 1 64k packet, I receive 1 MTU sized packet 2017-07-26T20:59:01Z rumbler31: or N 64k/MTU size packets 2017-07-26T20:59:05Z rumbler31: that may not be in order, sure 2017-07-26T20:59:08Z foom2 is now known as foom 2017-07-26T20:59:24Z dlowe: No, IP will split the packets, but reassemble them if needed 2017-07-26T20:59:33Z rumbler31: oh really? 2017-07-26T20:59:33Z dlowe: If a packet is lost, the entire UDP datagram is discarded 2017-07-26T20:59:42Z Shinmera: UDP gives you all or nothing. 2017-07-26T20:59:51Z Shinmera: Either you get a full message or not. 2017-07-26T21:00:30Z Shinmera: And the message you get is also internally consistent, so the UDP message itself will be properly consecutive. Individual UDP messages may be reordered though. 2017-07-26T21:00:43Z _death: rumbler31: you need to distinguish IP datagrams from UDP datagrams 2017-07-26T21:02:08Z rumbler31: that part I should have known, but thank you for clearing it up. but even with this in mind, would anyone feel constrained with an api that presents the byte vectors from udp datagrams received on the interface so far as a stream? 2017-07-26T21:02:29Z Shinmera: I would because it's not how UDP is supposed to be viewed. 2017-07-26T21:02:48Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:02:57Z Shinmera: You already have a full message there. There's no point in turning it into a stream. 2017-07-26T21:03:01Z _death: rumbler31: that would lead to abstraction inversion 2017-07-26T21:05:22Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:05:31Z rumbler31: I understand that I should not expect my data to be in order across datagrams 2017-07-26T21:05:34Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T21:06:19Z rumbler31: but I guess, if I find that i've ended up with datagrams out of order and thats important, a stream interface alone would not tell me how much of the following bytes were received in the datagram 2017-07-26T21:08:38Z rumbler31: whereas if I have to keep the individual messages around, I know that when I start examining the buffer and its not what I need I can throw it out 2017-07-26T21:09:47Z rumbler31: and that the udp datagram reception call, if a stream is returned, its only temporary because I'd have to read from a new stream on a new call 2017-07-26T21:09:51Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:10:36Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:10:56Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:11:10Z juanrgar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T21:14:26Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:15:30Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:17:12Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2017-07-26T21:20:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:27:13Z mwsb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:28:45Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T21:29:17Z mwsb joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:30:15Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:32:43Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:38:19Z Fade joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:41:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:44:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:45:04Z MrSleepy joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:45:55Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-07-26T21:46:45Z MrSleepy: Hello do people generally do graphics and gui programming in lisp using some sort of foreign function interface, or is there a more native approach to that sort of thing? 2017-07-26T21:47:55Z phoe_: MrSleepy: what exactly kind of graphics do you mean? 2017-07-26T21:48:18Z phoe_: There is McCLIM that is as Lispy as you can get. 2017-07-26T21:48:35Z phoe_: There are also a few CFFI-based toolkits for interfacing with libraries like Qt. 2017-07-26T21:48:46Z phoe_: #lispgames does a lot of OpenGL from Lisp, if you're into that. 2017-07-26T21:48:56Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:49:52Z MrSleepy: Well generally just drawing to the screen. I am totally not very knowledgable about it graphics in general. My main experience is through tcl/tk and Qt in C++ but that isn't really drawing in the low level sense. 2017-07-26T21:49:53Z MrSleepy: *about graphics in general 2017-07-26T21:50:01Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T21:52:30Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T21:52:53Z MrSleepy: phoe_, forgot to tag you 2017-07-26T21:54:49Z phoe_: MrSleepy: You might want to check McCLIM 2017-07-26T21:55:09Z phoe_: It has the low-level facilities you describe, if I'm not mistaken 2017-07-26T21:55:12Z phoe_: Poke around #clim 2017-07-26T21:55:28Z MrSleepy: phoe_, I just checked it it seems really useful, I also peeked at #lispgames and some of the resources in their motd seem useful too 2017-07-26T21:55:54Z MrSleepy: thanks! :D 2017-07-26T21:56:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:56:13Z phoe_: no problem 2017-07-26T21:56:21Z phoe_: poke us if you have any questions 2017-07-26T21:56:45Z MrSleepy: will do :] 2017-07-26T21:58:16Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-26T21:59:02Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T21:59:09Z z3t0: MrSleepy: For advanced things look at cl-opengl and lispbuilder-sdl and for a more high level interface look at sketch 2017-07-26T22:02:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T22:06:37Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-26T22:06:47Z pyx joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:07:02Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-26T22:08:20Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:09:09Z ptdel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-26T22:10:05Z MrSleepy: z3t0, I will look that up too thank you. 2017-07-26T22:12:35Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:14:11Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:15:20Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-26T22:16:44Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-07-26T22:16:45Z whoman going to try mcclim and cepl tonight 2017-07-26T22:23:02Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:23:30Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T22:26:14Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:26:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-26T22:27:09Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-26T22:30:13Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T22:31:10Z eelster[away] quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-26T22:31:59Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:35:50Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-26T22:38:55Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T22:38:57Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:39:20Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:40:54Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:48:17Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-26T22:48:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T22:50:44Z z3t0: is there a fast way to add all functions in a buffer to be profiled? 2017-07-26T22:51:02Z z3t0: I have a large library that I am trying to profile and find the bottleneck in but it has a lot of functions 2017-07-26T22:51:43Z z3t0: oh nvm slime-profile-package 2017-07-26T22:52:10Z azzamsa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T22:56:26Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2017-07-26T22:56:44Z z3t0: Is there a linter for style guides that is commonly used in cl development? 2017-07-26T22:57:52Z _death: if you use sbcl, see the manual for a statistical profile 2017-07-26T22:59:01Z _death: there is no linter in common use, but see system "lisp-critic" 2017-07-26T23:02:27Z z3t0: _death: alright il do that thanks 2017-07-26T23:03:18Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-26T23:11:12Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-26T23:12:22Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-26T23:21:47Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-26T23:25:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-26T23:33:34Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-26T23:34:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T23:37:58Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T23:43:09Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-26T23:48:21Z MrSleepy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T23:51:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-26T23:52:37Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T23:55:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T00:46:44Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2017-07-27T00:47:29Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-27T00:48:25Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T00:53:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T00:56:58Z AX31_A13X joined #lisp 2017-07-27T00:57:48Z AxelAlex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T01:06:26Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:07:15Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T01:09:07Z scottj left #lisp 2017-07-27T01:14:49Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:16:28Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:21:37Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T01:22:30Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:23:15Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T01:26:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T01:29:41Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:30:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T01:34:50Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:35:34Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:36:09Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T01:46:34Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T01:51:36Z aceluck quit 2017-07-27T01:54:48Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T01:55:45Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T01:56:41Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:02:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T02:05:23Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:07:58Z c__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T02:09:08Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T02:17:04Z al-damiri quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T02:19:04Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:20:46Z mwsb is now known as chu 2017-07-27T02:23:28Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:26:09Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T02:34:25Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:35:07Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T02:35:28Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:36:15Z zhou joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:38:27Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-27T02:47:37Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T02:47:55Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T02:49:00Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T02:51:07Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T03:01:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T03:03:01Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T03:04:07Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:06:08Z nicdev` is now known as nicdev 2017-07-27T03:10:07Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T03:15:02Z keviv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T03:26:25Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T03:26:52Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:31:07Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T03:32:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T03:37:14Z stylewarning joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:37:53Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T03:38:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:42:21Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:44:17Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:45:19Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:51:15Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T03:52:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:56:09Z cyberlard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T03:56:34Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-27T03:56:37Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-27T03:56:55Z z3t0: beach: morning 2017-07-27T03:57:00Z stylewarning: Hello beach 2017-07-27T03:57:20Z stylewarning: z3t0: hey, this is quad, you'd sent a message the other day to me 2017-07-27T03:57:37Z z3t0: stylewarning: ah cool, how is it going 2017-07-27T03:58:17Z stylewarning: Good, wishing for many improvements to SBCL :D 2017-07-27T04:01:00Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-27T04:01:19Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:02:49Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T04:04:57Z loke: Hello Lisp! 2017-07-27T04:06:29Z whoman: =) 2017-07-27T04:07:34Z beach: Hey loke. 2017-07-27T04:08:32Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:10:25Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T04:10:52Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T04:12:23Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:12:24Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:14:33Z jealousmonk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T04:17:15Z rageoholic joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:18:09Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T04:32:20Z sheshiresat joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:45:55Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T04:46:21Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:50:33Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:52:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:54:48Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T04:55:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T04:56:04Z raphaelss quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-27T05:05:46Z stylewarning: Lisp libraries need more users 2017-07-27T05:05:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:08:21Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T05:09:19Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T05:13:38Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T05:14:07Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:16:28Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:18:12Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:18:34Z dec0n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T05:19:12Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:19:51Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:21:20Z dec0n quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T05:22:26Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:23:18Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:23:18Z dec0n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T05:23:31Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:25:15Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-27T05:27:28Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:29:33Z benrob0329 left #lisp 2017-07-27T05:32:01Z sheshiresat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T05:36:22Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T05:43:36Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:43:46Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T05:47:51Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T05:49:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:51:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:52:06Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T05:53:06Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T05:53:08Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T05:56:50Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T05:59:35Z dec0n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T05:59:58Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:00:09Z z3t0: stylewarning: and lisp needs more users 2017-07-27T06:00:33Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:05:25Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:05:57Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T06:05:57Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T06:07:58Z pie3 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:08:15Z pie3: any python user? 2017-07-27T06:11:27Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T06:11:58Z stylewarning: z3t0: I agree, but the bar is too high 2017-07-27T06:12:15Z stylewarning: And it will remain so until a lot of problems are solved 2017-07-27T06:14:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T06:16:54Z z3t0: stylewarning: honestly I only just began commmon lisp and the only issues i have had are libraries or lack there of for many "common" application uses such as graphics, templating etc 2017-07-27T06:17:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:17:09Z z3t0: And most libraries that exist arent really maintained 2017-07-27T06:17:30Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:17:34Z aeth: If you don't think there are many libraries for graphics, you'll be disappointed for literally everything else except maybe web stuff. 2017-07-27T06:17:44Z beach: pie3: Do you mean the Common Lisp compiler named Python? Sure lots of people here. 2017-07-27T06:17:46Z rageoholic quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T06:18:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:20:43Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-27T06:22:51Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T06:23:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T06:26:32Z AX31_A13X quit (Quit: AX31_A13X) 2017-07-27T06:27:35Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:29:53Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T06:30:02Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:30:44Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T06:38:36Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:40:15Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:44:39Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:54:19Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-27T06:54:52Z z3t0: aeth: what is cl primarily used for in production? 2017-07-27T06:56:00Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T06:57:12Z stylewarning: z3t0: it's sufficiently general purpose that there is no answer 2017-07-27T06:57:40Z stylewarning: People use it commercially for anything from GUIs to embedded systems to backend infrastructure 2017-07-27T06:57:44Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T07:02:50Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:03:17Z Shinmera: used in scientific computing quite a bit too 2017-07-27T07:04:20Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it) 2017-07-27T07:05:36Z stylewarning: I would grade Lisp an "F" in conventional scientific computing. 2017-07-27T07:07:38Z beach: Why is that? 2017-07-27T07:08:18Z stylewarning: The cornerstone of modern scientific computing is numerical linear algebra. 2017-07-27T07:08:36Z beach: And? 2017-07-27T07:09:03Z stylewarning: And, unless I've missed something big, there are no usable libraries for it that cover it anywhere near comprehensively. 2017-07-27T07:09:43Z Shinmera: http://www.cliki.net/linear%20algebra 2017-07-27T07:09:47Z stylewarning: lisp-matrix, LLA, MATLISP, CL-BLAPACK 2017-07-27T07:10:41Z stylewarning: It's nice that there's a cliki page, but attempt to use any of the libraries to, say, do the utterly trivial thing of computing the conjugate transpose of a complex float matrix. 2017-07-27T07:12:02Z Shinmera: I haven't used any of them, so I don't know what the problem would be. 2017-07-27T07:14:10Z stylewarning: The problem will be one of the following: complex numbers not supported, complex numbers broken with FFI, library-included F77 LAPACK is patched or out-of-date, library won't load at all, source code is undocumented and inspecting the source requires you to untangle 11 layers of macros and a home-rolled re-implementation of generic functions 2017-07-27T07:17:38Z Shinmera: That sounds pretty bad, yeah. 2017-07-27T07:19:23Z stylewarning: This is just to transpose a matrix and conjugate it's entries. Of course, rolling your own on a 2D array is <= 5 lines of code. But unfortunately the next level of basic things like numerically stable SVD are orders of magnitude more difficult to implement, and almost surely a bad idea. 2017-07-27T07:20:03Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:20:16Z z3t0: stylewarning: i though lisp had built in complex numbers? 2017-07-27T07:20:24Z stylewarning: Indeed, it does. 2017-07-27T07:20:29Z Shinmera: z3t0: It does, but this is for interaction with foreign libraries. 2017-07-27T07:20:41Z z3t0: ok 2017-07-27T07:22:32Z shka: honestly, i would just try to steal scipy 2017-07-27T07:22:54Z stylewarning: This sort of project is of course possible to implement in Lisp. But it requires careful programming, excellent interface design skills, a good understanding of compilers and runtimes, and a no-nonsense approach to generalization. 2017-07-27T07:23:36Z stylewarning: shka: If we—the collective of Lisp programmers—can't even steal LAPACK, there's no hope to stealing SciPy. 2017-07-27T07:24:00Z shka: you sound so bitter 2017-07-27T07:24:22Z z3t0: I think we need a more organised cl community 2017-07-27T07:24:30Z z3t0: it just feels like cl lacks cohesion 2017-07-27T07:24:43Z shka: i kinda agree 2017-07-27T07:24:44Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T07:24:52Z z3t0: Something like clojure lisp does fine because it can instead just rely on java 2017-07-27T07:24:59Z z3t0: but we dont have that kind of fall back 2017-07-27T07:25:05Z stylewarning: shka: I am a little bitter, because this makes my day job harder. And it has been an impediment in 3 professional settings. 2017-07-27T07:25:06Z loke: We can fall back to C 2017-07-27T07:25:19Z z3t0: but theres so much not done in c anymore as well 2017-07-27T07:25:42Z loke: What does numpy implement their algorithms in? Surely they're not python-native.. 2017-07-27T07:25:44Z stylewarning: loke: struct by value? Moving pointers? Complex floats? 2017-07-27T07:25:51Z Shinmera: Saying "we need a more organised community" won't really get you anywhere. 2017-07-27T07:25:53Z z3t0: loke: true 2017-07-27T07:26:03Z stylewarning: Python also doesn't have a moving garbage collector. The pointers stay put. 2017-07-27T07:26:16Z z3t0: Shinmera: then lets make one :) 2017-07-27T07:26:19Z Shinmera: A lot of people that are drawn to CL are individualists and avoid anything that would force them to do what they don't want to. 2017-07-27T07:26:27Z z3t0: true 2017-07-27T07:26:31Z z3t0: but together we can achieve a lot more 2017-07-27T07:26:36Z z3t0: its a compromise 2017-07-27T07:26:39Z Shinmera: Can we? 2017-07-27T07:26:48Z z3t0: lets be optimistic here ;) 2017-07-27T07:27:04Z Shinmera: Optimism doesn't help. It just leads to false hype. 2017-07-27T07:27:08Z z3t0: my biggest issue is that for libraries that do exist good documentation is rare 2017-07-27T07:27:12Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-27T07:27:22Z z3t0: and those that have that often dont receive many updates 2017-07-27T07:27:32Z Shinmera: Well then start fixing that 2017-07-27T07:27:36Z z3t0: We need to work on developing a stronger ecosystem so that 2017-07-27T07:27:39Z z3t0: working on it 2017-07-27T07:28:56Z Shinmera: I don't really like it when people talk about what "we" need, or need to do. If you want people to be interested in what you want, do it, and do it well enough to get them interested. 2017-07-27T07:29:05Z Shinmera: It's going to be really really hard, though. 2017-07-27T07:29:28Z z3t0: fair points 2017-07-27T07:30:29Z beach: Shinmera: I totally agree about disliking opinions about what "we" need or need to do. 2017-07-27T07:30:30Z Shinmera: I for one am not a strong enough person to be able to juggle community management alongside coding, so I just don't bother and just write what I want. I don't have the energy to try and convince people to help me out. 2017-07-27T07:31:25Z z3t0: Shinmera: trial looks interesting, how can i get started with it? 2017-07-27T07:31:27Z Shinmera: Not that I haven't tried. 2017-07-27T07:31:44Z Shinmera: z3t0: That depends entirely on what you want to do with it 2017-07-27T07:32:00Z z3t0: Well what can it do? 2017-07-27T07:32:47Z Shinmera: Handle input, manage assets, get you a GL context, load collada models, present a shader pipeline, do hierarchical shader composition, and other stuff I forget. 2017-07-27T07:33:19Z z3t0: alright thanks, that seems like a lot of stuff 2017-07-27T07:33:39Z Shinmera: Here's a 4 hour in-depth stream about the engine internals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v6iv_3BLeo&index=8&list=PLkDl6Irujx9Poirb63aATXXWHCVCHwlQA 2017-07-27T07:33:56Z Shinmera: The playlist also has some gamedev streams in it, which show a more practical approach. 2017-07-27T07:34:34Z z3t0: thanks il take a look 2017-07-27T07:35:10Z Shinmera: On that note, this weekend there's going to be another Ludum Dare contest and I'll be streaming during that as much as possible. 2017-07-27T07:35:40Z Shinmera: http://tumblr.shinmera.com/post/163453750839/ludum-dare-39 2017-07-27T07:36:02Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:36:15Z z3t0: thanks 2017-07-27T07:36:28Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:37:11Z stylewarning: If anyone is actually interested in some Lisp linear algebra writing, let me know, you can possibly get paid to do it. (Likewise with SBCL development.) 2017-07-27T07:37:22Z stylewarning: ;) 2017-07-27T07:38:36Z Shinmera: Might want to ask on /r/lisp about that too. 2017-07-27T07:38:59Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-27T07:39:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:40:39Z stylewarning: I might cast a wider net as time goes on 2017-07-27T07:42:15Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T07:43:02Z Shinmera: z3t0: As of right now I can't advise the use of Trial for anything but the development of itself. I can't guarantee the stability of any of its components due to the experimental nature of the project. 2017-07-27T07:43:17Z Shinmera: In a few years it might be at a point where things are finalised and documented. 2017-07-27T07:44:15Z z3t0: Understood 2017-07-27T07:44:21Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T07:44:31Z z3t0: What are some general principles for producing stable software in common lisp? 2017-07-27T07:44:50Z z3t0: Such as automated testing, vcs etc 2017-07-27T07:45:19Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:45:35Z Shinmera: Most people use git & some hoster for vcs. There's a brazillion testing frameworks out there and more are being made by the day (probably). 2017-07-27T07:46:11Z stylewarning: Understanding your software's scope and interface is important 2017-07-27T07:46:13Z Shinmera: As for CI, some use Travis with Roswell. 2017-07-27T07:46:32Z z3t0: alright thanks 2017-07-27T07:46:51Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T07:46:53Z Shinmera: But anyhow, vcs and ci are only really useful when your software is already stable. 2017-07-27T07:46:57Z Shinmera: And you want to keep it stable. 2017-07-27T07:47:19Z z3t0: right 2017-07-27T07:47:48Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:49:09Z stylewarning: Reducing interactive features of your software helps stability. Reducing "options at a distance" helps. Reducing generality. Not relying on undocumented APIs. Staying portable or de facto portable. 2017-07-27T07:49:54Z Shinmera: Documenting your own stuff and getting others to try it also helps tremendously, I find. 2017-07-27T07:50:51Z stylewarning: The best way to find and kill bugs is to use what you wrote. (: 2017-07-27T07:51:09Z Shinmera: Well, using it yourself only helps that much since you have certain goals with it. 2017-07-27T07:51:32Z azzamsa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T07:51:51Z Shinmera: Other people are much more useful because they don't have the same cognitive predisposition as you do 2017-07-27T07:52:15Z stylewarning: Using your library as any other consumer I've found helpful. 2017-07-27T07:52:25Z stylewarning: Like using your library from quicklisp 2017-07-27T07:52:37Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T07:53:01Z stylewarning: Ok time to sleep 2017-07-27T07:53:07Z Shinmera: Good night 2017-07-27T07:53:38Z stylewarning: Night night 2017-07-27T07:53:58Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:02:37Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:07:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:08:46Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:09:23Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:09:23Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:15:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:16:03Z shka: anyway 2017-07-27T08:16:23Z shka: why can't we make actually good LAPACK bindings? 2017-07-27T08:16:47Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:17:48Z Shinmera: Because "we" don't exist. 2017-07-27T08:17:59Z Shinmera: And also because it's hard. 2017-07-27T08:18:01Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:18:08Z shka: hm 2017-07-27T08:18:15Z Shinmera: Hard as in tedious, and unrewarding. 2017-07-27T08:18:20Z shka: i see 2017-07-27T08:18:39Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:19:10Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-27T08:20:00Z edgar-rft assumes that "we" is the pluralis majestatis of "shka" 2017-07-27T08:20:09Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:20:48Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:21:51Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:25:08Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:26:16Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:31:21Z shka: edgar-rft: nah, in fact i am formed of 4 separate brains 2017-07-27T08:31:33Z shka: we have become much more 2017-07-27T08:32:27Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:32:50Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:33:02Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:33:22Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T08:34:34Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:35:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:36:42Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T08:37:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:38:01Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T08:42:48Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:47:01Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:50:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:50:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-27T08:50:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:57:06Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-27T08:57:26Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T09:00:43Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T09:00:57Z azzamsa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:01:02Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:05:02Z pie3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:06:44Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:07:38Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:18:49Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T09:19:21Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:21:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:22:50Z Lucky1101 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:23:55Z Lucky1101 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T09:26:04Z Murii quit (Quit: Going home) 2017-07-27T09:26:12Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T09:26:43Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:27:28Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:30:25Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:32:29Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:33:13Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:48:00Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T09:48:21Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T09:48:35Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:48:42Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:48:54Z azzamsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T09:49:49Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:50:08Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T09:51:36Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:52:22Z modula quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:56:03Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:57:03Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T09:57:03Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T09:57:21Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-27T10:02:28Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T10:03:50Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:04:20Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T10:07:07Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:08:04Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:08:19Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T10:08:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:15:52Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:22:42Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:22:52Z m00nati joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:26:41Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T10:26:57Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T10:29:42Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:33:25Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T10:35:10Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:40:48Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T10:40:58Z zhou quit 2017-07-27T10:43:04Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:49:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:50:01Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T10:50:40Z Harag: anybody else using emacs 25 on ubuntu 17.04 my slime menu is empty and buffer list is iffy...cant see anything on a google search... 2017-07-27T10:51:04Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:51:34Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-27T10:54:02Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-27T10:54:20Z loke: Works fine for me 2017-07-27T10:54:36Z loke: Start with a clean init.el configuration 2017-07-27T11:00:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:00:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:01:55Z Harag: :loke not an expert but this is a clean install of ubuntu and emacs 25 what would have messed up init.el... quicklisp slime helper? 2017-07-27T11:03:54Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:08:14Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:10:28Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:10:47Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:13:54Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:17:24Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:17:38Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T11:18:39Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:19:36Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:20:16Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:21:55Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T11:22:30Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:23:15Z malice left #lisp 2017-07-27T11:23:22Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:23:57Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:25:09Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:25:27Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:25:28Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-27T11:25:53Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:26:17Z mazoe joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:27:49Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:28:56Z Harag: :loke ...turns out to be something in my .emacs ... now need to hunt it down :( 2017-07-27T11:29:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:29:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:31:30Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:33:53Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:34:15Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:35:03Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T11:35:22Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:36:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T11:36:42Z callstack01 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T11:38:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:38:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:38:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-27T11:38:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:39:19Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:39:45Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:42:39Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T11:45:43Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:49:06Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-27T11:55:27Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:59:46Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T11:59:47Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:05:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T12:06:55Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:13:00Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:13:40Z azzamsa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T12:16:56Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:17:22Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:18:42Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:19:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:22:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:23:46Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T12:24:08Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:24:29Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:24:47Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:26:28Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:28:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:29:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:30:19Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:30:32Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:32:05Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:34:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:34:50Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:34:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:36:25Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:39:44Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:41:41Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-27T12:42:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:45:32Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:45:39Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:47:44Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:48:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:48:44Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:49:24Z azzamsa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T12:49:37Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:50:44Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:51:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:51:49Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:52:46Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:54:54Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:57:55Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-27T12:59:13Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:01:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:02:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:03:32Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:06:35Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:12:28Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:15:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:19:14Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:19:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:24:54Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:29:23Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:40:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:45:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:49:12Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:53:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T13:54:40Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-27T13:56:23Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T13:57:34Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T13:58:47Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T14:02:05Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-27T14:03:15Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:07:01Z stylewarning: shka: good LAPACK bindings are hard to do portably, require one to know how to load foreign libraries—system provided, possibly written in Fortran 2017-07-27T14:07:33Z shka: but it surely is easier than trying to implement everything from scratch 2017-07-27T14:07:42Z shka: in CL as well 2017-07-27T14:08:35Z stylewarning: It would be a difficult endeavor to rewrite LAPACK, yes. But if you used pure Lisp, you avoid tons of issues that you only get by binding with LAPACK 2017-07-27T14:08:49Z Xach: such as the irritatingly good performance? 2017-07-27T14:10:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:11:07Z stylewarning: You can get within a single digit number of orders of magnitude (<5) from a portable BLAS/LAPACK 2017-07-27T14:11:32Z shka: but how portable this code would be? 2017-07-27T14:11:45Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T14:11:46Z shka: it would work well, only on sbcl 2017-07-27T14:11:58Z stylewarning: Probably true 2017-07-27T14:13:04Z shka: on the other hand, it would keep working because lisp is overall stable 2017-07-27T14:13:28Z shka: dunno 2017-07-27T14:13:32Z shka: though cookie 2017-07-27T14:13:36Z Harag: was having issues with my slime menu in ubuntu 17.04 and emacs 25 in a fresh install, thought it was my .emacs loading something that messes it up but turns out that ubuntu uses /usr/bin/emacs25 and when you use that menus go for ball of .... change it to /usr/bin/emacs and slime menus work fine... heres to an hour waisted 2017-07-27T14:15:47Z stylewarning: I went through the exercise of writing a portable but fast linear algebra library. All of BLAS (essentially) + a good number of LAPACK essentials. But it was exceedingly hard and weeks and weeks of full-time paid work 2017-07-27T14:16:26Z stylewarning: And the further I got in, the harder it was 2017-07-27T14:16:44Z shka: no surprise here, really 2017-07-27T14:16:59Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:18:40Z Denommus quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T14:19:21Z Shinmera: I did some linear algebra stuff in 3d-matrices, but I didn't have to make it fast or guaranteed precise, so the pain was reduced. 2017-07-27T14:20:04Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:21:00Z stylewarning: Vectors and matrices for 3D programming is usually pretty minimal. One lisp file and maybe 100 or so lines of code 2017-07-27T14:21:04Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:21:25Z Shinmera: Well I went beyond what's necessary. 2017-07-27T14:21:54Z stylewarning: :) 2017-07-27T14:22:56Z Shinmera: It also definitely falls into your category of "untangling x levels of horrible macros". 2017-07-27T14:23:06Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-matrices/blob/master/ops.lisp#L9 2017-07-27T14:24:34Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:25:55Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:26:12Z rageoholic joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:26:29Z stylewarning: Shinmera: those macros are at least understandable compared to https://github.com/matlisp/matlisp/blob/master/src/base/coordinate-accessor.lisp 2017-07-27T14:26:53Z Shinmera: wew 2017-07-27T14:27:49Z stylewarning: https://github.com/matlisp/matlisp/blob/master/src/base/numeric-template.lisp 2017-07-27T14:28:44Z Shinmera: deft/method? 2017-07-27T14:29:34Z rageoholic left #lisp 2017-07-27T14:30:26Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T14:31:41Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:32:16Z shka: looks like somebody reinvented defgeneric 2017-07-27T14:33:39Z Shinmera: Aight. https://github.com/matlisp/matlisp/blob/master/src/utilities/template.lisp#L88 2017-07-27T14:34:15Z Shinmera: rplaca/rplacd uses even. Nice. 2017-07-27T14:34:33Z JuanDaugherty: coloring within the lines of CLOS may be beyond the capabilities of the average bear 2017-07-27T14:34:44Z quotation quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-27T14:38:31Z stylewarning: Anyway, definitely not looking to put down that library and that person's hard work, but it is a good example of a different point on this spectrum of library quality and construction 2017-07-27T14:38:44Z Shinmera: Right. 2017-07-27T14:39:56Z JuanDaugherty: also defgeneric doesn't necessarily entail CLOS 2017-07-27T14:40:35Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:41:03Z shka: not sure why it is written this way 2017-07-27T14:41:12Z shka: performance concerns? 2017-07-27T14:42:02Z stylewarning: A desire to be generic I suppose. Reduce copy-pasting of code 2017-07-27T14:45:17Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T14:48:06Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:53:33Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T14:57:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:00:02Z beach: JuanDaugherty: What do you mean by "defgeneric doesn't necessarily entail CLOS"? 2017-07-27T15:02:57Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:04:48Z JuanDaugherty: the CLOS specific parameters are optional, and the case in point 2017-07-27T15:05:40Z stylewarning: DEFGENERIC is CLOS. I don't get it. 2017-07-27T15:05:49Z stylewarning: Do you mean MOP or CLOS? 2017-07-27T15:05:56Z beach: JuanDaugherty: So you are not talking about CL:DEFGENERIC? 2017-07-27T15:08:30Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:09:28Z JuanDaugherty: right now 2017-07-27T15:09:34Z JuanDaugherty: i am not talking about anything 2017-07-27T15:09:49Z beach: That's convenient. 2017-07-27T15:10:03Z JuanDaugherty: :) 2017-07-27T15:10:56Z mishoo_ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2017-07-27T15:11:13Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:12:19Z JuanDaugherty: i avoid disputations, beach, and other nasty stuffs 2017-07-27T15:13:10Z JuanDaugherty: life polluted by dealing with small minded people isn't worth living 2017-07-27T15:13:16Z JuanDaugherty left #lisp 2017-07-27T15:13:25Z Shinmera: Holey moley 2017-07-27T15:13:42Z whoman: or expand their minds 2017-07-27T15:14:59Z beach: I wonder whether that was a list of things JuanDaugherty avoids: 1. disputations. 2. me. 3. other nasty stuffs. That would imply that I am some nasty stuff. 2017-07-27T15:15:33Z Shinmera: Making a wrong statement, ignoring questions about it, and then calling people questioning small minded sure is quite the stunt. 2017-07-27T15:15:44Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:16:14Z whoman: beach, or just disputing.. =) 2017-07-27T15:18:41Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T15:18:51Z edgar-rft: beach: Don't feel bad. We all are nasty stuff. 2017-07-27T15:20:01Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:20:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:20:29Z beach: Don't worry about me. 2017-07-27T15:21:37Z eelster joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:22:03Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:22:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:26:12Z tetero: beach: Maybe he avoids the beach because UV causes cancer 2017-07-27T15:26:43Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:31:10Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:37:26Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:39:39Z _death: beach: I think it was just direct addressing 2017-07-27T15:40:27Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:40:52Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2017-07-27T15:40:55Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:42:38Z Orion3k quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:43:35Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:43:50Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:45:10Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-27T15:46:58Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:54:38Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:55:26Z salva0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T15:58:14Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:00:01Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:00:48Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:03:45Z beach: _death: Yeah, me too. 2017-07-27T16:04:19Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:04:51Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T16:05:11Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:05:39Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:06:41Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:07:27Z quazimodo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-27T16:11:27Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:11:50Z Arnot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:13:22Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:14:15Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T16:14:56Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:15:45Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:16:03Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:16:31Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:17:33Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:19:02Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:21:08Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:22:43Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:22:56Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:24:26Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T16:24:33Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:25:32Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:27:27Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:27:59Z akkad ponders why roswell feels like a shell script converted to c 2017-07-27T16:28:16Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:28:55Z Orion3k quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:30:51Z Shinmera: Because it does shell script like things. It's in C to be more easy to deploy. 2017-07-27T16:31:03Z Shinmera: *easier 2017-07-27T16:32:15Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T16:32:28Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:34:19Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:35:14Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-27T16:38:55Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-27T16:40:58Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:42:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T16:42:25Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:47:25Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:48:14Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-27T16:59:39Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:01:26Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-27T17:02:50Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:04:36Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:07:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:16:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:20:57Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:23:53Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T17:24:56Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:27:33Z m00nati quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T17:27:42Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:27:59Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:28:13Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:29:02Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T17:32:07Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:32:52Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T17:34:21Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T17:34:48Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:36:57Z Denommus quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-27T17:37:57Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T17:44:37Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T17:50:40Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T17:52:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T17:56:27Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T18:01:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:03:52Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T18:06:14Z phoe_: I just deleted CL-YESQL from ~/quicklisp/local-projects because it is now available in Quicklisp. How can I tell Quicklisp, or ASDF, that it should fetch the project from Quicklisp instead of looking for it in local-projects, without restarting the Lisp image? 2017-07-27T18:06:50Z flip214: phoe_: IIRC quicklisp will see automatically that the ASD is gone, and re-fetch as necessary. 2017-07-27T18:07:00Z oleo: no 2017-07-27T18:07:00Z phoe_: flip214: if it would be that easy I wouldn't be asking here. 2017-07-27T18:07:06Z phoe_: :) 2017-07-27T18:07:18Z oleo: refetch yes but it doesn't know yet where it is 2017-07-27T18:07:19Z flip214: phoe_: how about (ql:register-local-projects) 2017-07-27T18:07:20Z flip214: ? 2017-07-27T18:07:26Z phoe_: flip214: if it would be that easy I wouldn't be asking here. 2017-07-27T18:07:28Z phoe_: ;) 2017-07-27T18:07:42Z oleo: cause he deleted it from local projects 2017-07-27T18:07:47Z oleo: why should he add again ? 2017-07-27T18:07:47Z phoe_: In other words: did it, QL and ASDF still are looking for it in the local-projects. 2017-07-27T18:08:01Z flip214: phoe_: well, would you lose anything by restarting your inferior lisp= 2017-07-27T18:08:02Z flip214: ? 2017-07-27T18:08:17Z oleo: no you have to change (:tree "bla/bla/") in your farm-link file 2017-07-27T18:08:23Z oleo: the new location 2017-07-27T18:08:26Z phoe_: flip214: it's on a remote machine and has some precious state that I don't really feel like losing right now. 2017-07-27T18:08:36Z oleo: and tell asdf to reinitalize it's database about the changes.... 2017-07-27T18:08:40Z phoe_: So I'm looking for a non-restart way. 2017-07-27T18:08:43Z oleo: ya 2017-07-27T18:08:59Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:09:06Z flip214: phoe_: well, a quick way might be to start _another_ lisp, do the (ql:quickload ...) there 2017-07-27T18:09:17Z flip214: and if that isn't sufficient, put a symlink in local-projects? 2017-07-27T18:09:57Z phoe_: oh. 2017-07-27T18:10:05Z phoe_: doing the quickload from another Lisp worked. 2017-07-27T18:10:17Z phoe_: Now this is a hack I could not think of myself. :D 2017-07-27T18:11:00Z flip214: well, that was so easy that I didn't dare ask that in the first place ;) 2017-07-27T18:11:09Z phoe_: (incf flip214) 2017-07-27T18:11:11Z phoe_: there you go 2017-07-27T18:11:16Z flip214 is now known as flip215 2017-07-27T18:11:26Z flip215: thanks 2017-07-27T18:11:43Z phoe_: we need a bot designed for incfing people 2017-07-27T18:17:09Z Xach: (asdf:clear-system ...) can help also. 2017-07-27T18:18:30Z phoe_: Xach: thanks for that. 2017-07-27T18:18:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:18:39Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T18:25:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T18:25:36Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:26:51Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:29:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:30:20Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T18:32:35Z Xach: phoe_: sorry not to answer sooner. (asdf:clear-system ...) would probably have done the trick. 2017-07-27T18:33:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T18:34:23Z phoe_: Xach: no problem, it's not your duty to be my one-click tech support. 2017-07-27T18:34:38Z Xach: WRONG 2017-07-27T18:34:57Z Xach: (i just want to share tips that help as often as possible) 2017-07-27T18:35:22Z phoe_: GASP 2017-07-27T18:35:27Z phoe_: wait, where's my tech support bill then 2017-07-27T18:35:48Z Xach: Shinmera: more lichat errors overnight for me 2017-07-27T18:38:40Z ynj joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:40:32Z ynj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T18:44:29Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:47:54Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T18:49:05Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:51:03Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:57:16Z davide89v joined #lisp 2017-07-27T18:58:08Z davide89v: hello to everyone 2017-07-27T18:58:10Z davide89v: i'm davide 2017-07-27T18:58:14Z phoe_: hey davide89v 2017-07-27T18:58:16Z phoe_: what's up? 2017-07-27T18:58:45Z davide89v: hi phoe_ 2017-07-27T18:59:25Z davide89v: i'm here because i'm curious 2017-07-27T18:59:28Z davide89v: about lisp 2017-07-27T18:59:48Z phoe_: Tell us more about your curiosity. :D 2017-07-27T18:59:56Z White_Flame: ;) 2017-07-27T19:00:05Z phoe_: White_Flame: oh shush 2017-07-27T19:00:05Z davide89v: well 2017-07-27T19:00:30Z davide89v: i've made some research 2017-07-27T19:00:44Z davide89v: and i've found that this lisp language could be very potent 2017-07-27T19:01:01Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:01:03Z davide89v: a true versatile language 2017-07-27T19:01:08Z davide89v: and well 2017-07-27T19:01:12Z davide89v: i would like to try it 2017-07-27T19:01:31Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:01:33Z davide89v: but i'm not sure about what implementation choose 2017-07-27T19:01:43Z phoe_: SBCL or CCL. 2017-07-27T19:01:50Z White_Flame: it doesn't matter much. SBCL is the default, especially on Linux. 2017-07-27T19:02:00Z White_Flame: CCL has had longer support on windows & mac 2017-07-27T19:02:02Z davide89v: i'm on gnu/linux 2017-07-27T19:02:04Z davide89v: ccl? 2017-07-27T19:02:08Z phoe_: Don't use GCL under any circumstances, and avoid CLISP as a beginner. 2017-07-27T19:02:10Z davide89v: or sbcl 2017-07-27T19:02:16Z phoe_: Steel Bank Common Lisp and Clozure Common Lisp. 2017-07-27T19:02:45Z phoe_: Two pretty good modern implementations, both rather popular. 2017-07-27T19:02:46Z davide89v: okok but clisp is still in use? because i've seen the development is stopped at the year 2010 2017-07-27T19:02:49Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T19:02:53Z phoe_: It did not stop. 2017-07-27T19:03:02Z phoe_: The implementation is maintained. 2017-07-27T19:03:08Z davide89v: truly? 2017-07-27T19:03:11Z davide89v: wow 2017-07-27T19:03:16Z phoe_: And CLISP is still in use and has its upsides. :) 2017-07-27T19:03:24Z davide89v: upsides? 2017-07-27T19:03:42Z phoe_: Yes. 2017-07-27T19:03:49Z davide89v: i'm italian 2017-07-27T19:03:54Z davide89v: what that mean? 2017-07-27T19:03:59Z White_Flame: it apparently has a very fast bignum library, and it tends to be compilable on many odd varieties of systems starting from just a C compiler 2017-07-27T19:04:00Z phoe_: Things CLISP is good for. Strong sides. 2017-07-27T19:04:30Z davide89v: strong sides = experts? 2017-07-27T19:04:40Z White_Flame: benefits, advantages, etc 2017-07-27T19:04:41Z phoe_: And also, it is an interpreted implementation, by default. So it does not have any compilation overhead, which is good for scripts. This, and its portability like White_Flame mentioned. 2017-07-27T19:04:53Z davide89v: ok 2017-07-27T19:04:56Z davide89v: thank you 2017-07-27T19:05:21Z davide89v: may i ask you why GCL (GNU Common Lisp) is not good? 2017-07-27T19:05:37Z phoe_: Unmaintained, incomplete, not compliant with the ANSI CL standard. 2017-07-27T19:05:44Z davide89v: okok 2017-07-27T19:05:49Z davide89v: thank you very much 2017-07-27T19:05:57Z davide89v: so ccl or sbcl 2017-07-27T19:06:07Z shka_: davide89v: yes 2017-07-27T19:06:14Z shka_: ccl is cool 2017-07-27T19:06:21Z shka_: sbcl is also cool 2017-07-27T19:06:30Z White_Flame: sbcl is in the apt repositories (from my Mint end), I dont' think ccl is 2017-07-27T19:06:34Z phoe_: shka_: I really like the fact that, to the question "sbcl or ccl", you answered yes 2017-07-27T19:06:43Z shka_: i would pick ccl 2017-07-27T19:06:44Z phoe_: SBCL is in the apt repositories, CCL you have to download separately 2017-07-27T19:06:54Z oleo: dunno, to download ccl is hell 2017-07-27T19:06:59Z White_Flame: although the repos always have an older version, but just 1.3.1 vs 1.3.19 claimed here 2017-07-27T19:07:00Z phoe_: hell? why? 2017-07-27T19:07:04Z oleo: sbcl is pretty forward 2017-07-27T19:07:08Z phoe_: you download the archive, unpack, and run the binary 2017-07-27T19:07:10Z davide89v: i use ubuntu 2017-07-27T19:07:13Z shka_: roswell makes this trivial 2017-07-27T19:07:17Z davide89v: so i'm not very good in linux 2017-07-27T19:07:24Z koenig: Do people tend to have favorable views on ECL? 2017-07-27T19:07:25Z davide89v: but i like to learn 2017-07-27T19:07:26Z shka_: davide89v: no worries 2017-07-27T19:07:37Z shka_: koenig: ECL is great for C integration 2017-07-27T19:07:38Z davide89v: ok 2017-07-27T19:07:39Z shka_: and C++ 2017-07-27T19:07:47Z phoe_: koenig: I like ECL though I don't use it for development 2017-07-27T19:07:49Z oleo: and for embedded ? 2017-07-27T19:07:52Z shka_: and it is very portable 2017-07-27T19:07:58Z koenig: That'd be my intended use case (integration with C and C++). 2017-07-27T19:08:01Z phoe_: ECL is the Embeddable Common Lisp 2017-07-27T19:08:05Z oleo: je 2017-07-27T19:08:23Z koenig: As in, I'd like to use it to "script" my C/C++ code vs. something like TCL or Python. 2017-07-27T19:08:31Z shka_: koenig: ECL is great for that 2017-07-27T19:08:37Z davide89v: well i'm a beginner 2017-07-27T19:08:42Z oleo: i just can't like python somehow..... 2017-07-27T19:08:44Z davide89v: ecl maybe after 2017-07-27T19:08:50Z oleo: it's the tabs i think.... 2017-07-27T19:08:54Z shka_: davide89v: ok, just try roswell 2017-07-27T19:08:57Z oleo: and the strict indentation rules..... 2017-07-27T19:08:59Z davide89v: ok 2017-07-27T19:09:00Z davide89v: :) 2017-07-27T19:09:06Z shka_: it is easy to install, easy to use 2017-07-27T19:09:15Z shka_: will download implementation that you like 2017-07-27T19:09:15Z davide89v: roswell? 2017-07-27T19:09:16Z oleo: otherwise it's fine really 2017-07-27T19:09:34Z shka_: will setup slime 2017-07-27T19:09:42Z shka_: and it just-works 2017-07-27T19:09:51Z shka_: davide89v: one second 2017-07-27T19:09:58Z White_Flame: davide89v: the preferred development environment is Emacs + SLIME (connector between emacs & a running lisp), which provides a lot of really good interactivity 2017-07-27T19:10:19Z shka_: oleo: https://github.com/roswell/roswell 2017-07-27T19:10:23Z shka_: oleo: sorry! 2017-07-27T19:10:26Z shka_: davide89v: https://github.com/roswell/roswell 2017-07-27T19:10:26Z White_Flame: it's basically the "IDE", though doesn't follow common IDE conventions 2017-07-27T19:10:36Z shka_: basicly lisp intaller and launcher 2017-07-27T19:10:39Z davide89v: okok 2017-07-27T19:10:40Z davide89v: roswell 2017-07-27T19:10:42Z oleo: np 2017-07-27T19:10:50Z shka_: will download anything you want, will setup emacs for you 2017-07-27T19:10:55Z davide89v: thank you 2017-07-27T19:11:02Z oleo: wasn't it ccl that wanted your email or something 2017-07-27T19:11:05Z oleo: wait 2017-07-27T19:11:07Z shka_: never had problem with it 2017-07-27T19:11:09Z davide89v: i've started vim 2017-07-27T19:11:14Z davide89v: i'm not an expert 2017-07-27T19:11:16Z oleo: err, i think it was something else.....sorry 2017-07-27T19:11:17Z davide89v: however 2017-07-27T19:11:27Z davide89v: i'm a truly beginner 2017-07-27T19:11:39Z davide89v: you advise me for emacs? 2017-07-27T19:11:41Z phoe_: minion: tell davide89v about pcl 2017-07-27T19:11:42Z davide89v: can i use both? 2017-07-27T19:11:42Z minion: davide89v: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2017-07-27T19:11:47Z davide89v: ok 2017-07-27T19:11:49Z davide89v: pcl 2017-07-27T19:11:52Z davide89v: thank you 2017-07-27T19:11:53Z shka_: davide89v: i would stick to emacs 2017-07-27T19:11:53Z phoe_: that's the book. 2017-07-27T19:12:07Z phoe_: I use spacemacs, which is an emacs distribution 2017-07-27T19:12:15Z White_Flame: davide89v: google brings me to this cheat sheet: http://pchristensen.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/slimecommands.pdf 2017-07-27T19:12:42Z davide89v: slime 2017-07-27T19:12:42Z shka_: davide89v: basicly, roswell can install and launch emacs on the instant 2017-07-27T19:12:44Z davide89v: like the modes 2017-07-27T19:12:45Z davide89v: for emacs 2017-07-27T19:12:49Z shka_: with just one commands 2017-07-27T19:12:50Z davide89v: like c-mode 2017-07-27T19:12:58Z davide89v: ok 2017-07-27T19:13:04Z davide89v: i will download it 2017-07-27T19:13:12Z shka_: yeah, anyway 2017-07-27T19:13:13Z davide89v: and try ccl or sbcl 2017-07-27T19:13:17Z White_Flame: C-x means Ctrl-x, M-x means Alt-x (in most default keybindings) 2017-07-27T19:13:18Z shka_: i would start with roswell 2017-07-27T19:13:19Z davide89v: ok thank you 2017-07-27T19:13:30Z davide89v: i start now :D 2017-07-27T19:13:50Z shka_: it makes thing super easy to start 2017-07-27T19:14:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T19:15:04Z shka_: i need to setup real test env with roswell 2017-07-27T19:15:15Z shka_: so i can test stuff on sbcl, ecl and ccl 2017-07-27T19:15:27Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:15:47Z shka_: davide89v: also, have fun! 2017-07-27T19:16:27Z davide89v: thank you 2017-07-27T19:17:39Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:18:55Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T19:18:55Z flip215 is now known as flip214 2017-07-27T19:21:00Z flip214: davide89v: depending on how much effort you already spent with vim, you could also try vim+slimv. that's similar (albeit not as good) to emacs+slime. 2017-07-27T19:21:13Z shka_: nah 2017-07-27T19:21:23Z shka_: emacs + slime is trivial to setup 2017-07-27T19:21:31Z shka_: so it is easier to start 2017-07-27T19:21:45Z davide89v: i don't want to start another flamewar 2017-07-27T19:21:46Z flip214: shka_: I tried 4 or 5 times to install evil from tutorials, and failed every time ;/ 2017-07-27T19:21:48Z davide89v: but 2017-07-27T19:21:55Z davide89v: i've tryed both 2017-07-27T19:21:57Z davide89v: emacs and vim 2017-07-27T19:22:15Z davide89v: and i 've found myself better with vim 2017-07-27T19:22:17Z davide89v: i think 2017-07-27T19:22:18Z davide89v: however 2017-07-27T19:22:20Z davide89v: that's only 2017-07-27T19:22:24Z davide89v: a subjective 2017-07-27T19:22:29Z davide89v: perpective 2017-07-27T19:22:31Z phoe_: davide89v: vim has slimv 2017-07-27T19:22:37Z davide89v: truly 2017-07-27T19:22:42Z flip214: davide89v: perhaps https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ might be an idea worth looking into. 2017-07-27T19:22:44Z davide89v: subjective 2017-07-27T19:22:44Z phoe_: but also spacemacs was originally designed for vim users 2017-07-27T19:22:59Z flip214: that's a preconfigured emacs. 2017-07-27T19:23:00Z davide89v: phoe_ ok, but i'm not so good with vim 2017-07-27T19:23:10Z davide89v: i don't want to change editor right now 2017-07-27T19:23:20Z davide89v: because 2017-07-27T19:23:22Z flip214: I'm a vim user with slimv too, though - so you'll get help for that here as well. 2017-07-27T19:23:36Z phoe_: davide89v: sure thing, you'll get support with both emacs and slime over here. 2017-07-27T19:23:40Z davide89v: i fear i could become confused 2017-07-27T19:23:49Z davide89v: thank you very much, truly 2017-07-27T19:23:50Z shka_: davide89v: well, as i said, my main argument is that slime and emacs are trivial to setup with roswell 2017-07-27T19:23:50Z davide89v: :) 2017-07-27T19:23:53Z shka_: like single command 2017-07-27T19:23:55Z phoe_: I actually dared to install Atom and check its slime-atom plugin, but gosh, it's still in its early stages. 2017-07-27T19:24:11Z davide89v: ah ok 2017-07-27T19:24:12Z shka_: so if you want to get started as quickly as possible, it is best option i think 2017-07-27T19:24:13Z phoe_: I can't even do multiline input on the REPL because it complains about EOF if I do. 2017-07-27T19:24:15Z davide89v: with roswell 2017-07-27T19:24:22Z shka_: yes 2017-07-27T19:24:31Z shka_: you may setup slimv later 2017-07-27T19:24:34Z davide89v: thank shka 2017-07-27T19:24:45Z shka_: or just stick to slime since it is actually quite good 2017-07-27T19:24:48Z davide89v: but i prefer not change the editor 2017-07-27T19:25:12Z davide89v: thank you however truly 2017-07-27T19:25:25Z shka_: sure 2017-07-27T19:25:32Z davide89v: what about slimv? 2017-07-27T19:26:50Z MrTopom joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:27:02Z flip214: davide89v: https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv 2017-07-27T19:27:10Z flip214: or http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 2017-07-27T19:27:42Z davide89v: ok, a question just for curiosity, what about CMU Common Lisp? 2017-07-27T19:27:49Z davide89v: thank you for the answers 2017-07-27T19:28:26Z phoe_: CMU CL is still kicking, but SBCL forked off it and is much more commonly used 2017-07-27T19:28:47Z flip214: davide89v: just stick with sbcl right now; you'll most probably have a package for that in your linux distribution anyway. 2017-07-27T19:28:54Z oleo: cmucl is only 32bit 2017-07-27T19:29:00Z oleo: afair 2017-07-27T19:29:05Z davide89v: okok 2017-07-27T19:29:08Z davide89v: thank you to everyone 2017-07-27T19:29:14Z oleo: i switched to sbcl since then..... 2017-07-27T19:29:15Z davide89v: i'm from c, c++, c# 2017-07-27T19:29:27Z davide89v: i'm curious about a new paradigm 2017-07-27T19:29:32Z oleo: if you wanted to make it 64bit that'd be pretty a hassle..... 2017-07-27T19:29:32Z davide89v: this one especially 2017-07-27T19:30:00Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:30:04Z flip214: davide89v: start with a good book. PCL was already recommended. 2017-07-27T19:30:06Z oleo: btw, cmucl has some addons which are not fully functional either.....bitrot 2017-07-27T19:30:49Z oleo: clisp is not maintained anymore..... 2017-07-27T19:31:00Z davide89v: yes 2017-07-27T19:31:04Z davide89v: in the website is free? 2017-07-27T19:31:18Z phoe_: In the website? What do you mean? 2017-07-27T19:31:20Z MrTopom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T19:31:24Z oleo: gcl is dunno in what state..... 2017-07-27T19:31:33Z oleo: i couldn't compile last time.... 2017-07-27T19:31:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T19:31:48Z davide89v: phoe: in the link 2017-07-27T19:32:01Z phoe_: davide89v: which link? There were a few 2017-07-27T19:32:04Z phoe_: do you mean PCL? yes, it's free 2017-07-27T19:32:07Z davide89v: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2017-07-27T19:32:11Z davide89v: good 2017-07-27T19:32:13Z davide89v: :) 2017-07-27T19:32:14Z oleo: so ccl and sbcl are the only mainstream contenders really 2017-07-27T19:32:14Z davide89v: yeah 2017-07-27T19:32:25Z oleo: which are free 2017-07-27T19:32:28Z phoe_: if Lisp has a mainstream, then it would be SBCL and CCL 2017-07-27T19:32:39Z phoe_: (geez, "Lisp" and "mainstream" in one sentence) 2017-07-27T19:32:45Z oleo: lol 2017-07-27T19:33:03Z oleo: i meant mainstream in the sense of free 2017-07-27T19:33:08Z oleo: not like lispworks..... 2017-07-27T19:33:12Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:33:13Z oleo: or acl 2017-07-27T19:33:29Z phoe_: yes, but it's been decades since Lisp was mainstream itself 2017-07-27T19:33:31Z phoe_: ;D 2017-07-27T19:33:48Z oleo: what happened to corman lisp ? 2017-07-27T19:33:52Z phoe_: now it's a crazy niche language of people with grey beards who eat parens on breakfast. 2017-07-27T19:34:08Z phoe_: Corman CL was opensourced I think, but it's not maintained anymore. 2017-07-27T19:34:13Z flip214: phoe_: not true, I shave most days. 2017-07-27T19:34:19Z oleo: and picolisp ? 2017-07-27T19:34:30Z phoe_: flip214: not true, I know, my beard is not gray. 2017-07-27T19:34:33Z phoe_: oleo: picolisp ain't CL. 2017-07-27T19:34:38Z oleo: oops 2017-07-27T19:34:44Z oleo: scheme 2017-07-27T19:34:45Z oleo: meh 2017-07-27T19:35:07Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T19:35:23Z oleo: i downloaded it once but didn't use it much.....haven't looked in the docs or readme either.... 2017-07-27T19:36:08Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-07-27T19:36:33Z shka_: oleo: nowdays those are popular general purpose lisps: CL, Clojure, Racket 2017-07-27T19:37:00Z phoe_: and some other Scheme implementations like Chez Scheme, Chicken Scheme, Guile 2017-07-27T19:37:03Z oleo: hmm, i somehow still like racket 2017-07-27T19:37:23Z oleo: than most of the other schemes 2017-07-27T19:37:44Z oleo: clojure not so much 2017-07-27T19:40:52Z shka_: racket is cool 2017-07-27T19:40:59Z shka_: they have nice toys 2017-07-27T19:41:02Z oleo: ya 2017-07-27T19:41:06Z oleo: graphic capabilites 2017-07-27T19:41:10Z shka_: still like cl better :P 2017-07-27T19:41:16Z oleo: yes me too 2017-07-27T19:42:11Z flip214: for graphic capabilities, write logo or postscript. the latter has quite a few bits to teach, even. 2017-07-27T19:43:25Z oleo: ps ? 2017-07-27T19:45:02Z oleo: i thought it would be boring 2017-07-27T19:45:18Z oleo: and i don't have any resources on learning it..... 2017-07-27T19:45:40Z flip214: well, it's a stack-based language. if you didn't learn one of these before, it'll teach you new things. 2017-07-27T19:45:56Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-07-27T19:45:58Z flip214: no "ghostscript", "gv", "okular", etc.? no text editor? 2017-07-27T19:46:17Z flip214: not that much free time is needed... an hour a week would do for the basics 2017-07-27T19:46:22Z oleo: ok 2017-07-27T19:46:31Z rpg: Is there a commonly used utility library that has a generalized find-in-tree function? 2017-07-27T19:46:36Z oleo: will look later, i have 2 books already which i have to read.... 2017-07-27T19:47:45Z flip214: rpg: use a side-effect in SUBST-IF? 2017-07-27T19:48:10Z rpg: flip214: That's a cool idea, thanks! 2017-07-27T19:48:46Z rpg: somehow I thought this was in Alexandria, but it seems not (although I may have an old copy) 2017-07-27T19:50:56Z flip214: rpg: writing your own recursive traversal might be less consing, though 2017-07-27T19:56:03Z quotation joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:00:59Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T20:02:32Z toncek55 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:03:03Z phoe_: postscript is pretty 2017-07-27T20:03:18Z phoe_: I saw pure PS that generates a page-sized Mandelbrot fractal 2017-07-27T20:04:05Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T20:04:18Z White_Flame: rpg: I've written an entire suite of recursive traversal/search stuff, and there ends up being so much variation that I can see why alexandria doesn't include it 2017-07-27T20:04:31Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:04:34Z phoe_: time to make a traverse macro 2017-07-27T20:04:40Z phoe_: that's a DSL on its own like loop 2017-07-27T20:04:53Z rpg: phoe_: Or you could make a tree iterator for ITER 2017-07-27T20:05:04Z White_Flame: I have deep-mapcar, and deeper-mapcar ;) 2017-07-27T20:05:07Z rpg: but the subst-if trick is really neat 2017-07-27T20:05:19Z White_Flame: (and I think 1 level deeper than that) 2017-07-27T20:05:33Z White_Flame: the "deepness" depends on if it'll traverse through arrays, hashtables, object slots, etc 2017-07-27T20:05:43Z phoe_: (traverse foo as tree of conses for bar if (eq (car bar) 'x) replace bar with (list 1 2 3 4)) 2017-07-27T20:05:50Z rpg: The test first has to decide what kind of tree nodes are interesting (e.g., symbols), and then do the real test, and doing that while in subst-if seems to work nicely 2017-07-27T20:06:00Z White_Flame: also variations that support dotted lists 2017-07-27T20:06:17Z rpg: oh, yes, and the test always fails (so no substitution need be done) 2017-07-27T20:06:54Z phoe_: (traverse foo as 3D array of structs foo-struct for bar if (foo-struct-baz bar) do (setf (foo-struct-baz bar) 42)) 2017-07-27T20:07:15Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-27T20:12:50Z phoe_: ...this is a crazy idea 2017-07-27T20:13:58Z davide89v: which do you advise me to choose? sbcl or ccl? 2017-07-27T20:14:01Z davide89v: for starting 2017-07-27T20:14:24Z davide89v: sbcl 2017-07-27T20:14:30Z davide89v: ok let's go:D 2017-07-27T20:14:55Z phoe_: davide89v: here, hold this - you will need them 2017-07-27T20:15:01Z phoe_: (((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))) 2017-07-27T20:15:12Z davide89v: ahahaahah 2017-07-27T20:15:14Z davide89v: yeeeeeeee 2017-07-27T20:15:16Z clintm: that's a good start. 2017-07-27T20:15:29Z davide89v: lisp is a strong language, right? 2017-07-27T20:15:37Z davide89v: i've read about it 2017-07-27T20:15:46Z davide89v: it is used in large software 2017-07-27T20:15:54Z davide89v: where this paradigm is better 2017-07-27T20:17:25Z phoe_: define "strong language" 2017-07-27T20:17:34Z phoe_: it's used in huge corporate projects, yes 2017-07-27T20:17:36Z davide89v: ;-) 2017-07-27T20:17:40Z davide89v: yes 2017-07-27T20:17:43Z davide89v: you're right 2017-07-27T20:17:49Z davide89v: strong is subjective 2017-07-27T20:17:53Z davide89v: :) 2017-07-27T20:17:59Z phoe_: but if we measure strength by that then Java is 1500000% stronger 2017-07-27T20:18:05Z phoe_: and I don't think that's very good 2017-07-27T20:18:28Z toncek55 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T20:19:17Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2017-07-27T20:21:27Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T20:23:19Z davide89v: yes 2017-07-27T20:23:32Z davide89v: claro 2017-07-27T20:24:08Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T20:26:05Z Shinmera: Xach: A method definition too early. Fixed. 2017-07-27T20:30:19Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T20:30:48Z Grue` joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:31:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:31:44Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:31:58Z burhanloey joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:34:09Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T20:36:13Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T20:40:18Z c__ joined #lisp 2017-07-27T20:42:12Z rpg: in American English, at least, "strong language" means "a lot of swearing"! 2017-07-27T20:42:40Z Shinmera: strong language is language that can beat weak language in a fist fight 2017-07-27T20:42:56Z Shinmera: Thus, everyone should use strong language wherever possible. 2017-07-27T20:43:52Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T20:45:00Z phoe_: C is the strongest language! int main() { return *(int *)0; } 2017-07-27T20:45:09Z phoe_: look, it can beat itself to death with one line of code 2017-07-27T20:47:35Z clintm: Something tells me phoe_ isn't a huge fan of c. 2017-07-27T20:47:46Z clintm: nor am I, for that matter. 2017-07-27T20:49:29Z phoe_: clintm: I actually am moderately tolerant of C. 2017-07-27T20:49:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T20:49:46Z phoe_: it's C++ that I'm very uncomfortable with. 2017-07-27T20:52:29Z Grue`: clhs prog 2017-07-27T20:52:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm 2017-07-27T20:52:38Z Grue`: this macro seems seriously underrated 2017-07-27T20:53:34Z Bike: writing code like that kind of sucks. 2017-07-27T20:54:26Z phoe_: this macro could be useful back when bytes were expensive 2017-07-27T20:54:32Z Grue`: it's LET (useful) + BLOCK (useful) + TAGBODY (occasionally useful) in one single macro 2017-07-27T20:54:47Z phoe_: I find it *much* more readable to have separate LET BLOCK TAGBODY. 2017-07-27T20:55:23Z Bike: it's block nil and tagbody doesn't have any customization 2017-07-27T20:57:40Z Grue`: phoe_: by the same logic, I should macroexpand every macro in my code so it's more readable 2017-07-27T20:58:00Z phoe_: Grue`: you have a point there 2017-07-27T20:58:21Z phoe_: it's just that I don't see prog used anywhere nowadays. 2017-07-27T20:58:29Z Xach: A bridge too far 2017-07-27T20:59:20Z Grue`: https://github.com/tshatrov/match-client/blob/master/match-client.lisp#L25-L31 2017-07-27T20:59:32Z Grue`: pretty elegant if I say so myself 2017-07-27T20:59:56Z aeth: phoe_: If you judge languages by ability to self-implode just (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) and you will have a language almost as powerful as C... not quite, GC still prevents a lot. 2017-07-27T21:00:09Z aeth: (In most if not all CL implementations.) 2017-07-27T21:00:52Z oleo: can't you turn off GC ? 2017-07-27T21:00:55Z phoe_: aeth: I know, I know. Except I can't (declaim (optimize (safety 3))) in C, even if I wished. 2017-07-27T21:01:39Z aeth: Safe Cs exist, but afaik they'll cost you lots of money. 2017-07-27T21:01:46Z phoe_: oleo: there's no portable way of doing this, and it's always dangerous because you never know when GC is going to *need* to kick in, e.g. when you run out of heap. 2017-07-27T21:01:47Z Bike: i think you could just as well use handler-case for stream-error and not do a goto, but then you have both handler-bind and handler-case, so meh 2017-07-27T21:02:00Z aeth: It's not like aircraft use Rust. They use safe Cs. 2017-07-27T21:02:09Z aeth: (And similar things.) 2017-07-27T21:02:30Z phoe_: aeth: I kind of wish Rust actually takes the throne named "safe C". 2017-07-27T21:02:58Z Bike: aircraft also have a nice process where "user error" is expanded into "okay, what can we do to make users not do this in the future" which is pretty alien to programming 2017-07-27T21:03:58Z aeth: phoe_: I'd much rather have a non-GCed CL-like Lisp if I had to write code for C's niche. I don't need high-level syntax in a not-very-high-level language. Syntax gets in the way. 2017-07-27T21:04:46Z phoe_: aeth: have you seen https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp ? 2017-07-27T21:05:23Z aeth: Every language wants to look like math, but (1) math is a 2D language with rich symbols and (2) math is kind of ambiguous (e.g. what is tau or k or p or u? depends) 2017-07-27T21:07:07Z phoe_: When I call a DEFUN, how does an implementation know if the function is redefined with another version? 2017-07-27T21:07:43Z phoe_: If I C-c C-c a DEFUN form a few times, there is no remark from the implementation that I'm redefining something, but if I change a thing in the form and then hit C-c C-c, SLIME tells me there's a warning because I'm redefining a function. 2017-07-27T21:07:59Z White_Flame: it also records from where you defined it 2017-07-27T21:08:14Z phoe_: Oh. I see. 2017-07-27T21:08:15Z Bike: it looks up the function from the symbol at runtime. it doesn't have to do anything special 2017-07-27T21:09:27Z aeth: phoe_: The problem is that a good static Lisp probably needs integration with at least one CL implementation to be more useful than C. 2017-07-27T21:09:52Z rpg: aeth: It would be nice to also have good type inference. 2017-07-27T21:10:14Z aeth: An alternative would probably be to make type declarations, structs, etc., more powerful and have a way to do no-gc like in D. 2017-07-27T21:10:19Z phoe_: aeth: what kind of integration do you mean? And where do you set the boundary of what is GCed and what is not GCed? 2017-07-27T21:10:24Z slaejae joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:10:35Z aeth: In D, you can apparently just say @nogc 2017-07-27T21:10:53Z aeth: And now you have a C++-like language and a Java-like language in one 2017-07-27T21:10:54Z White_Flame: does that just ensure the GC doesn't interrupt that code? 2017-07-27T21:11:08Z aeth: It ensures the code doesn't use the GC, and errors if it has to 2017-07-27T21:11:16Z White_Flame: ah, coo 2017-07-27T21:11:17Z phoe_: ooh 2017-07-27T21:11:20Z aeth: They had to rewrite large parts of their standard library 2017-07-27T21:11:21Z phoe_: now that's a powerful tool 2017-07-27T21:11:23Z Bike: what about multiple threads? 2017-07-27T21:11:44Z Bike: can you manually de/allocate things? 2017-07-27T21:11:57Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:12:12Z phoe_: I bet that if there's a stop-the-world GC, then all threads must be stopped nonetheless - if non-GC code accesses GCable data, which I bet is possible 2017-07-27T21:12:14Z aeth: I am not sure about all of the details of D, it's further down my list because it's fairly obscure. 2017-07-27T21:12:41Z White_Flame: phoe_: if all memory accesses use read barriers, then you can let them run concurrently 2017-07-27T21:12:55Z White_Flame: (and write barriers, obviously) 2017-07-27T21:13:10Z Bike: yeah, i mean, you can probably have a system like that but it's pretty complicated. 2017-07-27T21:13:24Z aeth: I suspect a (declaim (gc 0)) would be hard to do in CL, and might need a revision to the spec 2017-07-27T21:13:27Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T21:13:42Z aeth: It took D years to do it and I think some of the standard library is still off limits 2017-07-27T21:14:17Z aeth: It is an interesting feature, though. 2017-07-27T21:14:22Z Bike: the spec wouldn't have to be changed, since it only defines like two things remotely related to memory anyway, and none of them are a garbage collector 2017-07-27T21:14:33Z whoman: we need more meta 2017-07-27T21:14:53Z phoe_: whoman: add a hash 2017-07-27T21:14:57Z phoe_: and you get ##lisp 2017-07-27T21:15:12Z Bike: not a channel for talkign about #lisp, i don't think 2017-07-27T21:15:21Z whoman: ... add a and you get a +thing .... well yeah... 2017-07-27T21:15:34Z whoman: no no no! meta language stuff! 2017-07-27T21:15:39Z aeth: Is #'lisp a legal channel name? 2017-07-27T21:15:45Z White_Flame: lisp is already a meta language! :) 2017-07-27T21:15:49Z whoman: idk how "meta" was associated with "off topic" 2017-07-27T21:15:53Z aeth: To talk about #lisp, #'lisp would make sense 2017-07-27T21:15:56Z whoman: White_Flame, well about D and other langs =) 2017-07-27T21:15:58Z phoe_: aeth: what would a (declaim (gc 0)) mean in practice? that all variables now need to be stack-allocated? 2017-07-27T21:16:05Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-27T21:16:23Z aeth: phoe_: yeah, basically dynamic extent either works or it errors rather than compile afaik 2017-07-27T21:16:24Z phoe_: (I bet it's an easy question to answer if it took D several years to get it right) 2017-07-27T21:16:36Z whoman: i have never seen the term "meta" used to hint or imply off topic things. also whats going on seems quite on-topic. i fail to see the logic. 2017-07-27T21:16:44Z phoe_: so you can allocate nothing unless it's dynamic extent 2017-07-27T21:16:49Z aeth: phoe_: Right now you have to disassemble, profile, etc., to find allocations 2017-07-27T21:16:53Z phoe_: yes, I see 2017-07-27T21:17:05Z whoman: my train of thought was.. need compiler-compilers, parser-parsers, etc 2017-07-27T21:17:06Z Bike: that's kind of different from turning off the gc. 2017-07-27T21:17:09Z aeth: (SBCL comments its allocations.) 2017-07-27T21:17:41Z aeth: Bike: If you do that in the equivalent of a main(), you turn off the GC 2017-07-27T21:17:57Z aeth: In D, turning off the GC is @nogc in main() iirc 2017-07-27T21:18:04Z phoe_: aeth: I bet you can tell SBCL to disassemble the code it compiles and err out the moment it finds any allocation. 2017-07-27T21:18:08Z aeth: So you'd need to add the extra step here too 2017-07-27T21:18:12Z phoe_: that would be a very simple way of implementing (gc 0) 2017-07-27T21:18:23Z Bike: phoe_: not really. nyef's mentioned the possibility a few times, but it's not trivial. 2017-07-27T21:18:46Z phoe_: Bike: what is not trivial about it? 2017-07-27T21:18:53Z Bike: aeth: that's more like, "we don't use heap allocation, so you might as well just turn off gc" isn't it 2017-07-27T21:18:56Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:19:24Z aeth: phoe_: You need to make sure that most of the standard is usable no-gc and many popular libraries, and you'd probably need to extend structs to make them less painful 2017-07-27T21:19:27Z Bike: phoe_: dunno. finding the full set of operators that allocates. deciding whether something that /can/ allocate actuallyw ill. probably. 2017-07-27T21:19:36Z phoe_: ouch. I see. 2017-07-27T21:19:46Z aeth: Atm, structs are often static, but... they're way more annoying to use than CLOS 2017-07-27T21:20:01Z phoe_: actually rewriting the standard library is going to be terrible since most of it is written in CL 2017-07-27T21:20:04Z whoman: after all , structs are objects ish 2017-07-27T21:20:08Z Bike: since your code calls other code, and that other code is not compiled with such settings. 2017-07-27T21:20:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:20:16Z phoe_: and rewriting CL to non-consing CL would be a step backwards, in a way 2017-07-27T21:20:18Z Bike: and macros might expand into who knows what implementation functions. 2017-07-27T21:20:32Z Bike: and the set isn't static, either. 2017-07-27T21:20:43Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:20:46Z phoe_: unless you feel like maintaining two versions of the static library: one that conses and one that does not. 2017-07-27T21:21:07Z Bike: well, i mean. usually standard functions are written to not cons unless they have to. 2017-07-27T21:21:21Z aeth: phoe_: It is a ton of work, yes. 2017-07-27T21:21:40Z aeth: That might be why only D afaik does this 2017-07-27T21:21:50Z Bike: probably some research languages do too. 2017-07-27T21:21:51Z phoe_: Bike: I bet you will want the compiler to err out if you e.g. use MAPCAR inside (gc 0). 2017-07-27T21:22:06Z aeth: e.g. Rust wanted to at one point and then gave up and settled on having no GC iirc 2017-07-27T21:22:11Z Bike: but what if it's (let ((x (mapcar ...))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) ...)? 2017-07-27T21:22:23Z phoe_: Bike: that sounds like an error 2017-07-27T21:22:28Z Bike: huh? why? 2017-07-27T21:22:30Z phoe_: ...wait 2017-07-27T21:22:40Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:22:40Z Bike: there's no reason the mapcar couldn't be compiled to allocate on the stack. 2017-07-27T21:22:42Z Bike: it's just Work. 2017-07-27T21:22:44Z phoe_: do you know the length of (mapcar ...) at compile-time? 2017-07-27T21:22:54Z phoe_: for this, you need to know the length of the lists passed to it as arguments 2017-07-27T21:22:59Z Bike: you can do variable stack allocations, mon. 2017-07-27T21:23:14Z phoe_: yes, but you won't be able to stack allocate the whole list if you don't know the list's length. 2017-07-27T21:23:34Z phoe_: because you won't know if you need 10 conses on the stack or 10^5. 2017-07-27T21:23:42Z Bike: sure, so you just take the minimum of all the lists and allocate that. or you just cons on the stack as you go. it's doable. 2017-07-27T21:23:57Z phoe_: oh. consing on the stack. hm. 2017-07-27T21:23:59Z aeth: phoe_: (map 'foo #'+ foo-1 foo-2) might stack allocate if foo is a sequence type of known length 2017-07-27T21:24:09Z phoe_: aeth: I know, if you have the length at compile-time 2017-07-27T21:24:10Z Bike: same considerations for map. 2017-07-27T21:24:19Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T21:24:25Z phoe_: I see. 2017-07-27T21:24:48Z aeth: Most maps in SBCL will allocate, though... the lambda (or the curry if you use that from alexandria) 2017-07-27T21:24:53Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:25:02Z aeth: It seems to only optimize the extremely trivial like #'+ 2017-07-27T21:25:26Z aeth: There is probably more room for optimizations here afaik 2017-07-27T21:25:41Z Bike: last i heard sbcl dx is kind of fucked. it's a bit hard to analyze. 2017-07-27T21:26:29Z whoman: this is all so disheartening =( 2017-07-27T21:27:25Z aeth: Well if you define the lambda separately and then (declare (dynamic-extent my-lambda)) it might work properly in the map? 2017-07-27T21:28:14Z aeth: It could probably be hidden by a macro if it works 2017-07-27T21:28:39Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:29:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T21:30:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:30:54Z aeth: I suspect that #'+ uses a special optimization in map, though. I can't write by hand code as efficient as produced by (map 'foo #'+ foo-1 foo-2) in SBCL's disassembly 2017-07-27T21:31:17Z aeth: At least where foo is e.g. a vec sized 3 of single-floats 2017-07-27T21:31:48Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:34:53Z White_Flame: if you used a literal lambda expression in there, I presume it would attempt to inline it as well 2017-07-27T21:36:07Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T21:38:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T21:38:43Z slaejae quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-27T21:44:51Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-27T21:50:31Z aeth: (deftype foo () `(simple-array single-float (2))) (defun test (u v) (declare (foo u v)) (map 'foo #'+ u v)) (defun test-2 (u v) (declare (foo u v)) (map 'foo (lambda (x y) (+ x y 2)) u v)) 2017-07-27T21:50:35Z aeth: Now e.g. (let ((u (make-array 2 :element-type 'single-float :initial-element 2f0)) (v (make-array 2 :element-type 'single-float :initial-element 42f0))) (list (test u v) (test-2 u v))) 2017-07-27T21:53:47Z tom69 joined #lisp 2017-07-27T21:53:53Z aeth: It looks like test-2, even when optimizing for speed, does inline the function (if that's what "; #gopher proxy too 2017-07-28T01:50:02Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T01:50:06Z trn: mainly just to return who -a -long and similar status messages and maybe offer an interactive/browsable help interface 2017-07-28T01:52:28Z Orion3k quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T01:53:09Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-28T01:53:11Z trn: The pascal compiler is decent for ancient as long as I'm blasphemizing :) 2017-07-28T01:54:38Z trn: I do not know enough about the system yet to know if wdc/video system has any decent frontend like curses or vms SMG$ 2017-07-28T01:55:08Z trn: I assume it has to due to pretty extensive terminal support 2017-07-28T01:56:17Z trn: Like I said before, I'm an old user but a new admin - and I didn't get free access to play with whatever I to in the past either 2017-07-28T01:57:20Z whoman: i was looking at the PLATO system, recently 2017-07-28T01:58:50Z trn: Oh, is Cyber1 still around? 2017-07-28T01:58:54Z whoman: yep! 2017-07-28T01:59:03Z trn: Those guys were good people. 2017-07-28T01:59:19Z whoman: they might still be, hopefully =) 2017-07-28T01:59:43Z trn: Shame on me for past-tensing them prematurely :) 2017-07-28T02:00:44Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T02:01:02Z aeth: My personal opinion on emacs is that I don't like (GNU) emacs... I just don't like the other options even more. 2017-07-28T02:01:04Z whoman: hehe 2017-07-28T02:01:06Z aeth: Especially for CL. 2017-07-28T02:01:11Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T02:01:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:01:58Z trn: whoman: Oh - I tried to update the "cost" accounting to print a true cost and ended up getting divisions by zero because there isn't enough precision to show low cost charges :) 2017-07-28T02:02:08Z whoman: the mac-only (clozure?) seemed alright. the rest look like basic windows95 file manager apps 2017-07-28T02:02:15Z trn: Sometimes we are spoiled in the modern era. 2017-07-28T02:02:40Z aeth: Division is hard. 2017-07-28T02:02:49Z whoman: indivisibility is easier 2017-07-28T02:02:55Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:02:59Z whoman: emacs is awesome for emacs lisp 2017-07-28T02:03:08Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T02:03:25Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:03:32Z aeth: Emacs actually has better support for the non-elisp Lisps in 2017 through MELPA. 2017-07-28T02:04:12Z trn: Anyway I left the old constants in there. 2017-07-28T02:04:12Z aeth: e.g. CL, Scheme, Clojure, etc., all have SLIME-like environments (I'm counting SLIME as a SLIME-like environment!) but I don't think elisp does! 2017-07-28T02:04:22Z trn: CPU usage 1 sec, memory usage 1.0 units, cost $0.05 2017-07-28T02:04:36Z trn: Yeah, you checked who was logged in. 2017-07-28T02:04:51Z trn: $0.05 please. 2017-07-28T02:04:55Z whoman: slime is written in elisp though =) also, M-x ielm 2017-07-28T02:05:06Z whoman: hehe 2017-07-28T02:05:36Z trn: Hemlock seemed more sane than Emacs. 2017-07-28T02:05:49Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T02:07:02Z whoman: how come? 2017-07-28T02:07:09Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:07:11Z trn: I never liked any of them tho. I started on DEC so went from EDI to EDT to LSE and then switched from LSE to vim, mainly to have the same editor on VMS, OS/2, 2017-07-28T02:07:14Z whoman: clim-listener with movable cursor would be something 2017-07-28T02:07:15Z trn: and Unix. 2017-07-28T02:07:21Z aeth: Whatever replaces Emacs probably will have to have Emacs keys. Too many Lispers built muscle memory that way (unless they use one of several vi-style emacs packages). That will probably be its lasting legacy, even if people eventually move away from it. 2017-07-28T02:07:42Z whoman: hmm 2017-07-28T02:08:15Z aeth: Also, I guess I didn't know about ielm because I never use elisp if I can avoid it. 2017-07-28T02:08:35Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:08:42Z Xach: aeth: luke gorrie often said slime was inspired by edebug and friends 2017-07-28T02:08:54Z trn: I use nvim now, but for awhile I was totally mentally ill with vi. 2017-07-28T02:09:25Z trn: Like, I had it setup for my shell and I read mail and IRC'd with it. I've since been cured. 2017-07-28T02:09:42Z whoman: these days elisp is quite nice. we just got tagged records/structs, threading/concurrency, dynamic modules (.dll/.so), and what else.. oh lexical binding 2017-07-28T02:10:06Z whoman: heh. i like paredit a lot. and slime company 2017-07-28T02:10:21Z aeth: I use many features in CL that few if any other Lisps have. That's probably why I use CL in the first place. 2017-07-28T02:10:54Z whoman: elisp has most of those features also. i assume it wouldnt be as fast or as spec-conforming 2017-07-28T02:11:38Z aeth: Well, yes, that's the thing, I use the features to be fast. If I just write the same things in elisp, not only will they be slower, they won't even be the fastest way to do the equivalent thing in elisp. 2017-07-28T02:11:39Z whoman: for most of the code i have been starting out to write (lisp newbie), can be done in both elisp and common... but two things bug me so i havent hard-decided on which one to persue completely 2017-07-28T02:11:52Z aeth: elisp is the same on the surface as CL, but the internals are totally different 2017-07-28T02:12:03Z trn: I mainly use sbcl when I'm playing with Lisp, but I'm lurking around the Clasp guys as well and watching their progress. 2017-07-28T02:12:05Z whoman: true - elisp probably has other ways to make things fast and for different reasons 2017-07-28T02:12:20Z whoman: yeah, hmm 2017-07-28T02:12:48Z whoman: i like the idea of clasp and ecl. but also i ran REmacs yesterday and its a lot faster than normal Emacs 2017-07-28T02:13:48Z trn: My only other major Lisp use is CSL or SL because I use Reduce quite a lot. 2017-07-28T02:14:06Z trn: elisp is somewhat alien to me not being an emacsian. 2017-07-28T02:14:18Z whoman: $1.31 , 3 seconds =) 2017-07-28T02:14:23Z trn: lol 2017-07-28T02:14:47Z whoman: CSL/SL ? 2017-07-28T02:15:00Z whoman: i was on a clojure kick for a while. but havent had a system with enough memory since then. 2017-07-28T02:15:12Z trn: Well, thats *your* 3 seconds but you likely wasted lots of "system" time listing and editing and serial line banging :) 2017-07-28T02:15:25Z whoman: yep guaranteed. thats why i am amused =) 2017-07-28T02:15:33Z trn: Codemist / Standard Lisp 2017-07-28T02:15:48Z whoman: british... 2017-07-28T02:16:05Z z3t0: Is there any reason to use a string over a stream or vice versa? 2017-07-28T02:16:21Z z3t0: I am parsing some markdown files and am wondering which would be the better way to work with the data 2017-07-28T02:16:44Z z3t0: A stream will be used to read the data to begin with, but should i just convert it to a string before working with it? 2017-07-28T02:16:46Z whoman: "May 2017: Codemist Ltd has ceased trading" =( 2017-07-28T02:16:51Z trn: whoman: They have Reduce for iOS available as iCAS also. 2017-07-28T02:17:18Z trn: Oh crap, I should likely be sure to save the latest CSL someplace then :) 2017-07-28T02:17:26Z whoman: z3t0, ironically, there is a bunch of nice elisp code that does a lot of markdown stuff. just use some of that =) 2017-07-28T02:17:40Z z3t0: whoman: il take a look thanks 2017-07-28T02:18:19Z aeth: My main language before CL was Python. I love SBCL because my intuition is about 10x slower than what the result is in SBCL. And then add another 1.5x speedup from a CPU upgrade since those days. All while using a language that's arguably higher level than Python. 2017-07-28T02:18:25Z whoman: 'reduce' doesnt run on CL ? 2017-07-28T02:18:44Z aeth: Python vs. SBCL is the difference between a slow interpreter and an average compiler, but it's a huge difference. 2017-07-28T02:19:57Z whoman: i grew up on C and fell in love with objc/openstep/nextstep/smalltalk/gnustep, got lost in opengl and web stuff, had a passionate affair with haskell, and then wanted to find some clojure/clozure/closure to all the adventures 2017-07-28T02:20:15Z whoman: hmm i heard SBCL is really fast, though ? 2017-07-28T02:20:27Z trn: whoman: http://www.alsoftiphone.com/iCAS/ and http://www.reduce-algebra.com/obtaining.php - so - apparently not 2017-07-28T02:21:01Z whoman: trn, ohh, thats cool =) 2017-07-28T02:21:29Z aeth: whoman: Here's some micro-benchmarks, which obviously aren't everything, but they do put SBCL in the class of fast languages rather than the slow ones. https://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programs-are-fastest.html 2017-07-28T02:22:05Z trn: Sbcl is fantastic, really. 2017-07-28T02:22:13Z aeth: And even if they are everything, taking a 5x slowdown over C to use SBCL seems more worth it (especially with today's computers) rather than e.g. a 10x to 300x slowdown. 2017-07-28T02:22:20Z trn: Also, I've found Abcl to be very fast too, suprisingly. 2017-07-28T02:22:37Z trn: Faster than Netrexx for example in the same JRE. 2017-07-28T02:22:55Z whoman doesnt like python, but much respect to it 2017-07-28T02:23:34Z loke does not respect python. at all. 2017-07-28T02:23:39Z loke: it has no redeeming qualities. 2017-07-28T02:24:20Z aeth: Let's assume SBCL is actually, 100% verifiably 4x (not 5x, I was reading the graph wrong) slower than C... that's not that bad. And it also means that there's plenty of room for even a 2x speed improvement in the future. 2017-07-28T02:24:36Z whoman: not it itself, more the community and all the places it is and roles it plays. like respecting a prostitute or fast food chain i guess. 2017-07-28T02:24:59Z aeth: I think Python makes sense as an approchable beginner's language. 2017-07-28T02:25:07Z trn starts antipa - anti-python-action. We'll start some small riots and wave "TREAD ON ME. NOW" flags and demand an end to the tyranical and dehumanizing practices of enforced whitespace and syntax. 2017-07-28T02:25:23Z aeth: Starting with Python isn't the worst, there can be worse, e.g. starting with JavaScript. 2017-07-28T02:25:59Z trn: I started with DEC BASIC :( 2017-07-28T02:26:04Z whoman: what the http://imgur.com/Mh1krxbl.png 2017-07-28T02:26:06Z trn: Then we used BLISS 2017-07-28T02:26:13Z aeth: trn: was it bliss to use? 2017-07-28T02:26:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:26:18Z trn: No. 2017-07-28T02:26:24Z trn: lol 2017-07-28T02:26:32Z whoman: aeth, with how beginning english-users cant write in straight lines? i dont think the whitespace is so good for that =) 2017-07-28T02:26:48Z whoman: stay calm and eval 2017-07-28T02:27:02Z whoman: er *keep calm and repl 2017-07-28T02:28:06Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-28T02:28:30Z trn: aeth: BLISS isn't as bad as it looks at first however. Neither is COBOL for all the whining that has evoked. These people have clearly never been exposed to DIBOL or IBM RPG, for example. 2017-07-28T02:29:15Z aeth: trn: Well, afaik, a lot of those languages aren't supposed to be general purpose languages. e.g. COBOL is probably best compared to SQL afaik. And you wouldn't write an RPG in RPG. 2017-07-28T02:29:20Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:29:28Z whoman: eiffel was neat 2017-07-28T02:29:42Z aeth: (And when you compare COBOL to SQL, it's probably obvious why SQL won so decisively.) 2017-07-28T02:30:14Z whoman: Prolog ? its used in many places where SQL could/would 2017-07-28T02:30:18Z trn: Well, you'd be very surprised what you can do in Objective Cobol these days. 2017-07-28T02:30:40Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-28T02:30:43Z trn: And Open-Cobol is very decent. 2017-07-28T02:30:50Z trn: Don't ask why I know. 2017-07-28T02:30:53Z whoman: these days if i went for speed, i would go Objective Caml probably 2017-07-28T02:31:17Z trn: Looked at Mythryl? 2017-07-28T02:31:29Z trn: (speaking of MLs) 2017-07-28T02:31:40Z whoman: looking at it now.. 2017-07-28T02:31:55Z whoman: dead, 2016 =( 2017-07-28T02:32:14Z trn: Yeah. 2017-07-28T02:32:53Z whoman: seems quite nice, though ! 2017-07-28T02:32:59Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:33:05Z whoman: reminding me a little of Rust. which is another thing. 2017-07-28T02:33:43Z trn: I've yet to learn Rust at all. 2017-07-28T02:33:53Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-28T02:33:57Z trn: I keep looking at ATS2 as my next thing. 2017-07-28T02:34:09Z whoman: i think the only 'whitespace' i can handle is haskell, but there is where i love the WS a lot 2017-07-28T02:34:24Z aeth: I can't handle Haskell's whitespace for some reason 2017-07-28T02:34:37Z aeth: I can tolerate Python's because the language itself is just so simple 2017-07-28T02:34:38Z whoman: i avoided rust for a long time. it ended up being really nice 2017-07-28T02:35:25Z whoman: writing blender plugin about ~1000loc, it was easy to do quick edits and random scrap kind of programming, just like web stuff. so i am mostly neutral to actually working with it 2017-07-28T02:35:28Z trn: I was put off by Rust's constantly changing language and not-finalized specs. 2017-07-28T02:35:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:35:45Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-28T02:36:06Z trn: I would hope things are more stable now and deserve a look. I have it installed, fwiw. 2017-07-28T02:36:17Z whoman: i really liked C/c++/objc a lot, so i dont mind javascript and rust at all. nothing else like that though (D, C#, lua, blah blah..) 2017-07-28T02:36:54Z whoman: one withstanding issue about rust apparently is compile speed. but community is large with heavy momentum 2017-07-28T02:37:08Z aeth: Compile speed would be a major deal breaker for me. 2017-07-28T02:37:11Z whoman: shen, arc, eh... 2017-07-28T02:37:19Z trn: Before I take off, I will confess, my "quick" go-to language is C+libslack+cello 2017-07-28T02:37:22Z whoman: hehe =) 2017-07-28T02:37:24Z aeth: (Although maybe not a very major deal breaker. Some people use CCL because they can't tolerate SBCL's compile speed.) 2017-07-28T02:37:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:37:59Z whoman: sbcl compiles really fast for me here, i think its really the compiler prints that slow it down 2017-07-28T02:38:04Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:38:17Z aeth: whoman: I can't personally stand C++, it's basically the JavaScript of things that need to be extremely fast. 2017-07-28T02:38:28Z whoman: (like most things.) but there was one thing that took a long time to compile, i forget which package it was 2017-07-28T02:38:30Z aeth: i.e. Throw every feature together and have terrible decisions for backwards compatibility. 2017-07-28T02:38:34Z trn: Anyway, feel free to pass around the Multics info and play with it and break it :) 2017-07-28T02:38:46Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T02:39:20Z trn: If anyone wants accounts with storage message me and I will attempt to contact MIT people and see if there is a later Maclisp I can get on there. 2017-07-28T02:39:41Z whoman: aeth, i used to hate it a lot, the same as java, or c# or any other corporate brochure, but these days its got quite some nice features with its templates and other c++17 stuff. too complex for me though, i just like it now where i disliked it previously 2017-07-28T02:39:50Z aeth: whoman: Every now and then I hit a strange edge case where SBCL takes forever (sometimes figuratively, sometimes literaly) to compile, but no other CL. Almost certainly some bug or strange interpretation of the code. But that can be fixed, like any bug. 2017-07-28T02:39:58Z whoman: trn, ok, cool =) can you put it in topic ? 2017-07-28T02:40:11Z aeth: I'm surprised such an SBCL-slowdown bug made it into a library. Most people use and test with SBCL afaik. 2017-07-28T02:40:16Z aeth: Or at least the plurality. 2017-07-28T02:40:33Z whoman: aeth, hm, true. haskell was really really fast for me 2017-07-28T02:40:57Z trn: whoman: Not sure if I have permission to but if anyone can they are welcome to. 2017-07-28T02:43:12Z vtomole: A lot of hackers used to say that common lisp is as big as c++, is this still true? 2017-07-28T02:43:12Z whoman: ok 2017-07-28T02:43:22Z whoman: big in what metric 2017-07-28T02:43:38Z whoman: lengthwise? weight in pounds? light absorption..? 2017-07-28T02:43:55Z whoman: how do we measure digital structures against each other 2017-07-28T02:44:49Z vtomole: How big the spec is 2017-07-28T02:45:02Z vtomole: Scheme is small cause the spec is like 90 pages i think 2017-07-28T02:45:17Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-28T02:45:21Z vtomole: opps 50 pages 2017-07-28T02:45:30Z vtomole: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf 2017-07-28T02:45:39Z aeth: Afaik, CL was absolutely huge... in the 90s. And now it's normal sized, if not a bit underweight, even though it hasn't changed at all. Scheme might soon be larger than CL, depending on what gets passed in r7rs-large. 2017-07-28T02:45:55Z aeth: Meanwhile C++ keeps piling on features. 2017-07-28T02:46:06Z aeth: If at one point they were equally sized, C++ has gained about 5,000 features since then. 2017-07-28T02:46:58Z vtomole: r7rs-large? Never heard of it. 2017-07-28T02:47:33Z aeth: r5rs was the norm for a while, then r6rs was a larger spec that was seen as not very Scheme-style, so the compromise was to split Scheme into an r5rs-style r7rs-small and a larger language r7rs-large that could be used for more portability 2017-07-28T02:47:59Z aeth: r7rs-small was released years ago, r7rs-large is still under development. 2017-07-28T02:48:26Z aeth: r7rs-large was, at least at one point, talked of as making Scheme as large or larger than CL, but I'm not sure if that's still the case, or if it was ever the case. 2017-07-28T02:48:33Z whoman: ohh spec. java is big, also the web specs are huge, if we combine css3/html5/ecmascript+ 2017-07-28T02:48:59Z aeth: CL is not just the HyperSpec, though. There's a large number of de facto standards in CL, too, like the Meta-Object Protocol (MOP). 2017-07-28T02:50:24Z aeth: And it has several practically-standard libraries like alexandria and cl-ppcre 2017-07-28T02:50:30Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:50:42Z aeth: Stuff in alexandria and cl-ppcre could reasonably be core parts of other languages, but don't need to be core in CL because the libraries are there. 2017-07-28T02:50:49Z vtomole: So scheme wants to be portable and the only option is to make it big? hmm sounds like the T programming language. 2017-07-28T02:51:36Z aeth: The problem with r5rs and r7rs-small Scheme is that almost any program written in portable Scheme is probably not going to be that useful because the standards are too small. e.g. r7rs-small has no hash table. 2017-07-28T02:51:50Z aeth: Nearly every Scheme probably has hash tables, but they all add them differently. 2017-07-28T02:51:55Z aeth: CL has no such issues. 2017-07-28T02:52:29Z whoman: the code itself being the best representation of what is actually going on 2017-07-28T02:52:42Z aeth: Oh, and there are some practically-standard SRFIs (and some became part of r7rs-small after being so popular for r5rses), but it's nothing like CL, where you can just use Quicklisp. 2017-07-28T02:53:21Z whoman: a lot of CL implementations are similar. but scheme implementations are more different than each other than CL impls. Racket has a lot of stuff. 2017-07-28T02:53:28Z aeth: Scheme SRFI support is a matrix of more than a dozen implementatoins implementing different ones, out of hundreds. 2017-07-28T02:53:45Z stylewarning: CL has no such issues (except FFI, POSIX, threads, MOP, numeric types, etc) 2017-07-28T02:53:53Z aeth: There are fewer, larger CL implementations that only have to deal with a few major portability things roughly comparable to what SRFIs are, like CFFI. 2017-07-28T02:53:53Z vtomole: Seems like r7rs-large is trying to be like Racket 2017-07-28T02:53:56Z stylewarning: At some point you have to draw a line on portability 2017-07-28T02:54:40Z whoman: css3/html5/js is more portable than most things 2017-07-28T02:55:01Z aeth: In CL, you just have to worry about "does this support bordeaux-threads? CFFI?" etc. Not anywhere near as big of a deal, and the answer is almost always yes for the major ones like SBCL, CCL, ECL, etc. 2017-07-28T02:55:20Z aeth: Maybe 10 such things instead of dozens to make a useful Scheme. 2017-07-28T02:56:49Z aeth: stylewarning: Numbers are probably the main weakness in your list. I don't think there's a real clear portability library there for e.g. handling NaN and +/- inf etc. 2017-07-28T02:57:22Z stylewarning: I wish CL included big floats :( 2017-07-28T02:57:42Z aeth: There are probably 3 libraries that partially do numerical portability, but no clear standard like CFFI, bordeaux-threads, closer-mop, etc. 2017-07-28T02:58:04Z aeth: At least afaik. 2017-07-28T02:58:14Z eelster joined #lisp 2017-07-28T02:58:39Z stylewarning: I complain about this every day probably: CFFI needs more to interact with a lot of C 2017-07-28T02:59:00Z stylewarning: structs by value! :D 2017-07-28T02:59:07Z whoman: why? 2017-07-28T02:59:21Z aeth: Just about everything needs more attention in the CL ecosystem, at the library and implementation level, imo. 2017-07-28T02:59:25Z aeth: But it could be worse. 2017-07-28T02:59:28Z aeth: At least CL isn't dead. 2017-07-28T02:59:49Z stylewarning: Yeah. CL isn't dead because it's still more useful than a lot of other things 2017-07-28T02:59:53Z aeth: At least on Freenode IRC, CL appears to be much more alive than a lot of 1980s languages, e.g. Pascal. 2017-07-28T03:00:04Z aeth: Even though imo Pascal did a lot of things more right than C 2017-07-28T03:00:35Z aeth: Even the superficial stuff like := probably prevented countless bugs that people wrote and continue to write in C and languages that use its syntax 2017-07-28T03:00:37Z whoman: i remember pascal was kinda fun to work with . i think i did that before C, forhigh school 2017-07-28T03:01:00Z stylewarning: Pascal had all this kooky stuff like pcode and verbosity 2017-07-28T03:01:10Z stylewarning: Making it not a first choice for important things like OS's 2017-07-28T03:02:10Z aeth: Oh, CL is one of the few languages that does things the way I like it, btw. = for equality, and something else for assignment. 2017-07-28T03:02:27Z aeth: I'm surprised that nearly every other language doesn't do this. 2017-07-28T03:02:46Z whoman: erlang 2017-07-28T03:02:47Z aeth: I see a = and I think equality, even in prefix form. 2017-07-28T03:02:53Z whoman: and prolog 2017-07-28T03:03:04Z aeth: I guess most programming language designers didn't pay attention in math classes 2017-07-28T03:03:24Z whoman: a lot of writers and pioneers of language are not mathematicians 2017-07-28T03:03:34Z whoman: nor are all mathematicians great musicians =) 2017-07-28T03:03:46Z aeth: CS was basically a field founded by mathematicians. 2017-07-28T03:03:50Z aeth: Everyone early in CS was one. 2017-07-28T03:04:16Z aeth: CS is probably the most mathematical major subject that isn't math, statistics, or physics. 2017-07-28T03:04:22Z whoman: ahh.. they were possibly made by dropouts like me 2017-07-28T03:04:55Z aeth: Computer people fool themselves into thinking that they're not doing mathematical things because they (usually) use different kinds of math than the physicists do, that's all. 2017-07-28T03:05:11Z whoman: hm 2008.. so climacs is dead then 2017-07-28T03:05:31Z whoman: aeth, i think the same about writers/speakers and musicians/artists 2017-07-28T03:05:37Z aeth: whoman: beach is slowly working on a successor to climacs iirc 2017-07-28T03:05:51Z whoman: also architects and other kind of engineers. numbers and ratios and symmetry and patterns are very important. 2017-07-28T03:06:16Z whoman: ah, ok =) his name came to mind for some reason too. i couldnt remember the association 2017-07-28T03:06:31Z aeth: whoman: Engineers scare me. 2017-07-28T03:06:51Z whoman: ah i use the term non academic, like carpenter 2017-07-28T03:06:56Z whoman: sorry 2017-07-28T03:06:58Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:07:02Z whoman: designers** 2017-07-28T03:07:29Z aeth: whoman: Engineers, at least at my university ime, are students who barely get through the lower level math and physics, not really understanding the material. And then they're the ones who actually do all the practical applications of such material, somehow. 2017-07-28T03:07:30Z whoman: i left high school and coded a lot but didnt learn proper math until haskell 2017-07-28T03:07:51Z whoman: ah, i see =) 2017-07-28T03:07:54Z aeth: whoman: The people who really understand the material go on to idk impractical theoretical things. :-p 2017-07-28T03:08:10Z whoman: like teaching? =) 2017-07-28T03:08:12Z aeth: A complete reversal of the whole "those who can't teach" 2017-07-28T03:08:16Z whoman: or coaching .. 2017-07-28T03:08:20Z whoman: heh 2017-07-28T03:08:55Z aeth: whoman: Although I do have a limited experience. 2017-07-28T03:09:00Z aeth: whoman: Perhaps all the good engineers go to MIT 2017-07-28T03:09:02Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-28T03:09:07Z aeth: And there's just such a limited supply 2017-07-28T03:09:30Z whoman counts between 5-10 sdl/opengl CL apis 2017-07-28T03:09:45Z aeth: Or maybe the good engineers take all the lower level classes at the high school level because they're going to take 5+ years to graduate anyway. 2017-07-28T03:10:08Z aeth: (I'm counting Calc III, Physics II, etc., as "lower" here.) 2017-07-28T03:10:29Z aeth: whoman: use cl-sdl2 with cl-opengl 2017-07-28T03:10:32Z tuturto_ is now known as tuturto 2017-07-28T03:11:07Z stylewarning: Someone help me set up a bounty list for CL things 2017-07-28T03:11:24Z whoman: sounds good ill help 2017-07-28T03:11:26Z whoman: aeth, ok 2017-07-28T03:11:26Z vtomole: Cl is not growing that's for sure. From the logs online, seems like it was still pretty good in 2007 2017-07-28T03:11:42Z vtomole: By good i mean amount of users 2017-07-28T03:11:50Z whoman: how they say, too many cooks not enough chefs 2017-07-28T03:11:52Z stylewarning: CL is growing local to me 2017-07-28T03:12:17Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T03:12:19Z stylewarning: 1 paid CL programmer to 5. 2017-07-28T03:12:33Z whoman: aeth, no such package cl-sdl2 ? 2017-07-28T03:12:49Z aeth: whoman: I think quicklisp calls it cl-sdl2 and then the actual package is sdl2 2017-07-28T03:12:52Z aeth: whoman: why, idk 2017-07-28T03:13:01Z aeth: It's one of the few that has a separate package/system name 2017-07-28T03:13:16Z aeth: i.e. the system is cl-sdl2 and then the package is sdl2 2017-07-28T03:13:20Z whoman: ah there it is =) 2017-07-28T03:13:28Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:13:33Z aeth: oh, no, wait, it's just :sdl2 2017-07-28T03:13:34Z z3t0: stylewarning: a bounty list? 2017-07-28T03:13:40Z whoman: yeah 2017-07-28T03:14:00Z stylewarning: Yes. I want to pay people for small features 2017-07-28T03:14:09Z z3t0: do you mean like creating libraries? 2017-07-28T03:14:16Z stylewarning: $50-10 00 2017-07-28T03:14:22Z stylewarning: Yes 2017-07-28T03:14:26Z stylewarning: Or improving 2017-07-28T03:14:33Z z3t0: ah cool, good luck its a great idea 2017-07-28T03:14:44Z whoman: what kind of features 2017-07-28T03:15:52Z stylewarning: Adding documentation to popular libraries, improving compiler things 2017-07-28T03:16:04Z stylewarning: Big floats, improved FFIs 2017-07-28T03:16:37Z aeth: stylewarning: do you mean long float? Some implementations have one, e.g. ECL 2017-07-28T03:17:03Z stylewarning: I mean arbitrary precision like CLISP's long-float 2017-07-28T03:17:07Z aeth: ah 2017-07-28T03:17:25Z stylewarning: Built in like CLISPs 2017-07-28T03:18:14Z aeth: I'd much rather have long-float be 80-bit extended precision or 128-bit quadruple-float. 2017-07-28T03:18:27Z stylewarning: Why? 2017-07-28T03:18:28Z aeth: The right, unambiguous solution if the standard could be updated would probably be to add more levels above double-float 2017-07-28T03:18:34Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T03:18:38Z aeth: Why? Possible hardware support 2017-07-28T03:18:53Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-28T03:19:03Z stylewarning: Why not have arbitrary precision and specialize for 80-bits 2017-07-28T03:21:54Z aeth: I think it would be better just to add different levels of float to a float list, perhaps with an arbitrary at the top, if the standard is flexible enough to allow that. (I'm not sure.) http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm 2017-07-28T03:22:00Z aeth: It's not like there are that many different kinds of floats 2017-07-28T03:23:02Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-28T03:23:38Z aeth: 16-bit (short-float, but technically too imprecise to pass the hyperspec), 32-bit (single-float), 64-bit (double-float), 80-bit (extended-float), and 128-bit (quadruple-float) are about all one needs to support, and maybe not even the 80-bit one. 2017-07-28T03:24:05Z Bike: i think that would technically be conformant, though it might cause problems anyway 2017-07-28T03:24:07Z aeth: The only ambiguity is whether long-float is extended-float or quadruple-float or arbitrary-float. The rest map cleanly to standards. 2017-07-28T03:24:17Z stylewarning: Why not (extended-float n) for n bits 2017-07-28T03:24:58Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:25:36Z aeth: The issue with e.g. making long-float an arbitrary float on SBCL is... what about when SBCL is ported to a platform that supports IEEE quadruple float, where long-float is a natural fit there? 2017-07-28T03:26:16Z Bike: stylewarning: you'd probably have to include some kind of "upgrading" mechanism, so that a 62 bit float is just a 64 bit float if that's what the machine has 2017-07-28T03:26:38Z stylewarning: Array types are the precedent 2017-07-28T03:26:51Z stylewarning: Why not? 2017-07-28T03:26:59Z Bike: i didn't say it was impossible 2017-07-28T03:27:14Z aeth: (In fact, SBCL runs on SPARC and PowerPC already, so it could in theory use a long-float quadruple float there, perhaps.) 2017-07-28T03:27:26Z Bike: you'd also have either an implementation limit on n or soft arbitrary floats, which are not trivial. (i personally would have to grap taocp or something to implement them) 2017-07-28T03:27:56Z aeth: stylewarning: one problem with modeling floats on arrays is the literal notation for floats 2017-07-28T03:28:05Z stylewarning: Let (extended-float 128) = long-float on whatever platform 2017-07-28T03:28:09Z aeth: In the REPL 2017-07-28T03:28:21Z stylewarning: All of these are non-problems 2017-07-28T03:28:24Z aeth: In the REPL I can have full control over which float "1.0" translates to 2017-07-28T03:28:27Z stylewarning: It's just quibbling 2017-07-28T03:28:34Z aeth: In a program, I make sure to use "1.0f0", "1.0d0", etc. 2017-07-28T03:28:42Z Bike: i don't have problems, i have concerns 2017-07-28T03:28:51Z Bike: not insurmountable, but enough that they're worth thinking about 2017-07-28T03:29:01Z stylewarning: Absolutely 2017-07-28T03:29:12Z stylewarning: In a design process which this is not :D 2017-07-28T03:29:43Z aeth: Just about everyone who just puts "1.0" and assumes it's a single-float should afaik think twice about that assumption because of (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) unless I'm wrong 2017-07-28T03:30:05Z aeth: So any new float system past just having a long-float needs a literal notation, or a reason why not to have one 2017-07-28T03:30:08Z Bike: harsh. well, you want to convene ansi again, i'll pass on my comments 2017-07-28T03:31:16Z stylewarning: I mean if someone intends to do work then we can do the details 2017-07-28T03:32:48Z Bike: actually, i'm not sure how arbitrary precision floats would work. clisp has an (ext:extended-float-digits) or something accessor, but that means you have only one kind of extended float at any given time, and you can just... gain and lose precision? 2017-07-28T03:32:58Z Bike: but if you had multiple kinds you'd have to tag them or something 2017-07-28T03:33:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-28T03:34:37Z Bike: and how do you like, get a high precision float? do some arithmetic and specify the precision you want to end up with? or have a different read syntax... 2017-07-28T03:34:37Z aeth: And if you permit the arbitrary precision floats to use hardware support where there is a match (potentially 80 and/or 128 bits), then what if the hardware supports both 80 and 128 bits? 2017-07-28T03:35:05Z Bike: i thought the idea was there would be some arbitrary number of fixed precision machine floats 2017-07-28T03:35:21Z stylewarning: aeth how do specialized arrays work? 2017-07-28T03:35:46Z stylewarning: Or special unsigned-bytes? 2017-07-28T03:36:07Z aeth: stylewarning: there is no way to say #single-float-array-of-3(1f0 2f0 3f0) but there is a way to say 1f0 2f0 3f0 2017-07-28T03:36:23Z aeth: Working with arrays is actually very inconvenient unless you write a few macros or functions to handle the common ones. 2017-07-28T03:36:42Z aeth: It's common to define "vec" or "vec3", for instance. And then you can just say (vec 1f0 2f0 3f0) 2017-07-28T03:36:49Z Bike: different unsigned byte lengths aren't distinct in the runtime. you have fixnums and you have bignums, and the length of an integer is obvious from its syntactic form. 2017-07-28T03:37:40Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T03:37:42Z ogkloo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-07-28T03:38:05Z stylewarning: You can do special things with special unsigned bytes 2017-07-28T03:38:14Z stylewarning: Like stack allocate them unboxed 2017-07-28T03:38:44Z Bike: i haven't heard of anybody doing that except with fixnums, i don't think 2017-07-28T03:39:08Z Bike: or at least, if you dx an (unsigned-byte 8) it'll probably just be dxing a fixnum 2017-07-28T03:39:15Z stylewarning: Maybe I'm misremembering. I thought sbcl can optimize it 2017-07-28T03:39:22Z aeth: I have to do something like this to make working with specialized arrays of known length easy enough to work with: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/b5639da6be400c1482545fe7a874bf3bd0b3db08/util/util.lisp#L92-106 2017-07-28T03:39:39Z stylewarning: Maybe not dx but optimize the arithmetic 2017-07-28T03:40:24Z aeth: But it's one thing to add conveniences, and another to take away conveniences (or at least not have them for some float types when others have them), i.e. the 1s0 vs. 1f0 vs. 1d0 vs. 1l0 2017-07-28T03:40:30Z aeth: stylewarning: You're correct afaik 2017-07-28T03:40:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:40:51Z aeth: stylewarning: I think SBCL optimizes things like mod when it knows the integer is very small 2017-07-28T03:41:32Z stylewarning: Or optimized SSE arithmetic on notionally boxed types like complex double floats 2017-07-28T03:43:15Z Bike: numbers don't have to maintain an identity so they don't really need to be boxed, but ive lost the connection to floats. 2017-07-28T03:44:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:45:40Z stylewarning: I'm just talking about different machine representations 2017-07-28T03:45:51Z stylewarning: Maybe inconsequential 2017-07-28T03:49:25Z slark: hello, if i pass to the &body body parameter of a macro `(foo).. the body will contains (`(foo)) right . 2017-07-28T03:49:26Z slark: ? 2017-07-28T03:50:57Z daemoz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:51:46Z Zhivago: Something equivalent to (list `(foo)), yes. 2017-07-28T03:52:28Z slark: so ,@body in my macro will give me back `(foo) 2017-07-28T03:54:23Z quotation quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-28T03:54:48Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:56:36Z Zhivago: Well, `(,@body) would get you back something equivalent to (list ''(foo)) which would evaluate to ('(foo)). 2017-07-28T03:56:42Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T03:56:46Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-28T03:56:48Z Zhivago: Be careful not to confuse ' and `. 2017-07-28T03:57:21Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-28T03:57:55Z slark: Zhivago: indeed thx 2017-07-28T04:00:03Z slark: Zhivago: i see you are still alive 2017-07-28T04:00:35Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:00:43Z slark: Zhivago: no one from C chan found you yet and killed you i see 2017-07-28T04:01:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:01:41Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:03:52Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T04:07:47Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:09:16Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T04:10:35Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:18:57Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:20:26Z eelster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-28T04:28:31Z stylewarning: Zhivago is a long time no nonsense contributing member 2017-07-28T04:28:34Z azon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T04:29:45Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T04:31:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-28T04:33:42Z fett1723 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:35:29Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T04:36:01Z fett1723 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T04:36:07Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:40:27Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T04:44:06Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T04:51:23Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T04:55:30Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T04:56:11Z kev1n joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:00:18Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:05:18Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:07:41Z kev1n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T05:16:27Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:21:40Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:22:48Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T05:23:38Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:26:44Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:29:57Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T05:33:22Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-28T05:33:29Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:34:53Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T05:36:23Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T05:36:51Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:38:52Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-28T05:41:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:48:07Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T05:53:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T05:53:49Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:55:31Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:56:15Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:56:16Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-28T05:56:50Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:03:01Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:05:02Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:08:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T06:09:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T06:10:21Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:15:48Z nirved_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:15:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T06:16:59Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:19:10Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T06:25:49Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-28T06:28:47Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T06:29:10Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-28T06:30:09Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T06:33:37Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T06:34:12Z andrzejku quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T06:34:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:37:24Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:38:30Z davide89v left #lisp 2017-07-28T06:38:46Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T06:42:56Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-28T06:44:25Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-28T06:44:34Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:01:34Z nirved_ is now known as nirved 2017-07-28T07:02:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:05:10Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T07:07:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:07:18Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-28T07:09:06Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:13:43Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T07:13:55Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:14:38Z joga_ is now known as joga 2017-07-28T07:14:46Z joga quit (Changing host) 2017-07-28T07:14:46Z joga joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:20:08Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:30:19Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T07:33:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:36:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:39:02Z cods_ is now known as cods 2017-07-28T07:39:19Z cods quit (Changing host) 2017-07-28T07:39:19Z cods joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:39:42Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T07:42:00Z tetero: morning beach 2017-07-28T07:42:22Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T07:43:26Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-28T07:44:54Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-28T07:46:12Z shka: hello 2017-07-28T07:49:01Z beach is using remote Multics. 2017-07-28T07:51:44Z clintm: beach: for work, or fun? 2017-07-28T07:51:52Z beach: For fun, for now. 2017-07-28T07:52:04Z clintm: That's pretty awesome. 2017-07-28T07:52:32Z beach: A few hours ago, trn explained that he is making it available. 2017-07-28T07:56:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T07:58:05Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-28T08:02:34Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:02:40Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T08:04:02Z Grue`: hunchentoot started eating a single core (25%) of CPU when idling after the latest quicklisp update 2017-07-28T08:04:21Z Grue`: is it just me or? 2017-07-28T08:05:13Z easye: Grue`: Which CL implementation? 2017-07-28T08:05:28Z Grue`: SBCL/Windows 7 2017-07-28T08:08:05Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:10:29Z beach: stylewarning: I hadn't made the connection before, but now I know who you are. Was it at ILC in Montreal that we last met? 2017-07-28T08:10:32Z easye: Grue`: After (asdf:test-op :huchentoot) under sbcl-1.3.19/macos-10.12.5 I don't see such CPU utilization, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for you. 2017-07-28T08:11:41Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:11:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:12:19Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T08:12:20Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2017-07-28T08:14:10Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T08:16:55Z stylewarning: beach: yes that's right 2017-07-28T08:17:14Z beach: stylewarning: You should plan to come to ELS in Marbella! 2017-07-28T08:17:28Z beach: ELS is much bigger than ILC. 2017-07-28T08:17:29Z stylewarning: When you gave me a stern fatherly talking to about avoiding confusion about the term "mathematical programming" :) 2017-07-28T08:17:41Z beach: Heh! 2017-07-28T08:18:02Z beach: Are you sure that wasn't my wife? :) 2017-07-28T08:18:09Z beach: That's her domain. 2017-07-28T08:18:17Z beach: She works on CPLEX. 2017-07-28T08:19:07Z stylewarning: Hehe. Positive. She was sweet and encouraging. 2017-07-28T08:19:08Z Grue`: easye: doesn't hunchentoot stops the web server after the tests? i only get abnormal cpu usage while the server is running 2017-07-28T08:19:38Z beach: stylewarning: Yeah. I hope I didn't offend you. Certainly did not intend to. 2017-07-28T08:20:08Z stylewarning: Obviously not. :) 2017-07-28T08:20:15Z beach: Whew! 2017-07-28T08:20:26Z beach: Anyway, I urge you to consider ELS. 2017-07-28T08:20:48Z beach: Marbella should be gorgeous at that time of year. 2017-07-28T08:21:12Z stylewarning: I think my employer will pay for it so yes 2017-07-28T08:21:18Z stylewarning: I have to recruit some Lisp hires 2017-07-28T08:21:31Z beach: ELS might be a good place for that. 2017-07-28T08:21:42Z beach: You'll be competing with Nick Levine though. 2017-07-28T08:21:52Z stylewarning: I got cooler stuff :D 2017-07-28T08:21:57Z beach: Heh! 2017-07-28T08:22:34Z jackdaniel: I'm trying to grow CL hacker locally ;) 2017-07-28T08:22:40Z jackdaniel: hey o/ I've answered your email stylewarning, thanks for getting in touch 2017-07-28T08:23:11Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, good work. 2017-07-28T08:23:25Z stylewarning: jackdaniel: I was just typing a response. I can PM you here if you want. 2017-07-28T08:23:43Z stylewarning: I'm trying to grow 4. 2017-07-28T08:23:56Z jackdaniel: email is fine, easier to get back to the content for me 2017-07-28T08:24:09Z beach: phoe needs a better job I think. 2017-07-28T08:24:20Z beach: He is already partially grown. :) 2017-07-28T08:24:34Z Shinmera-: Isn't he still studying? 2017-07-28T08:24:58Z beach: I think he is taking a break from studies. 2017-07-28T08:25:42Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera 2017-07-28T08:30:48Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T08:32:56Z MrMc joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:36:41Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:37:17Z vaporatorius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T08:37:22Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:38:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T08:38:43Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-28T08:39:36Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:40:18Z stylewarning: jackdaniel: shot you an email. 2017-07-28T08:40:19Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T08:40:35Z stylewarning: Time to sleep a bit. Until later fellow lispers. 2017-07-28T08:40:46Z jackdaniel: thanks, good night 2017-07-28T08:40:56Z beach: 'night stylewarning. 2017-07-28T08:44:50Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:52:05Z msb quit (Quit: ENOENT) 2017-07-28T08:55:51Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-28T08:56:05Z BW^-: OT: What is a "spanning forest" (in graphs) really?? 2017-07-28T08:57:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T08:59:28Z shka: so 2017-07-28T08:59:36Z shka: i was thinking about map from sbcl 2017-07-28T08:59:48Z shka: cl-data-structures i have my HAMT based hash table 2017-07-28T08:59:52Z shka: lookup is slow 2017-07-28T08:59:58Z shka: i need to figure it out 2017-07-28T09:00:18Z beach: BW^-: A collection of spanning trees. A spanning tree is a subgraph of a connected graph that contains all the vertices, but that is also a tree, i.e., no cycles. 2017-07-28T09:02:14Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:06:23Z clintm: A question, in handy paste form: http://paste.lisp.org/+7JHE 2017-07-28T09:07:35Z lieven: clintm: ,@ 2017-07-28T09:08:02Z jackdaniel: ,@(when weather-baloon `((cons "weather baloon" t))) 2017-07-28T09:08:29Z jackdaniel: nil will expand to nothing, while ((cons a b)) will expand to (cons a b) 2017-07-28T09:09:48Z clintm: Now, why didn't I think of ,@ over a double ((? Totally makes sense. 2017-07-28T09:10:14Z clintm: thanks lieven and jackdaniel! 2017-07-28T09:10:38Z beach: Though, Norvig and Pitman recommend using WHEN only when the value is unimportant. They would have said ,@(if weather-balloon '((cons "weather balloon" t)) '()) 2017-07-28T09:11:24Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-28T09:11:36Z beach now fully expects a debate about this issue, but tried to prevent it by presenting it as the opinion of authority, rather than his own. 2017-07-28T09:11:48Z Shinmera: I disagree with it, but that's ok. 2017-07-28T09:12:08Z beach: Of course you do. 2017-07-28T09:12:16Z Shinmera: I just always deem the return value of when as important as well. :shrug: 2017-07-28T09:12:16Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾ 2017-07-28T09:12:51Z clintm: Hanging out in #lisp, it sometimes feels like everyone's also on another channel having a discussion I don't see. Re. the 'issue'. :) 2017-07-28T09:13:08Z clintm: Not meaning to say anything other than it's amusing. 2017-07-28T09:13:20Z BW^-: beach: ahaaaaaaa. thanks for clarifying. 2017-07-28T09:13:32Z beach: clintm: Oh, it has to do with a long debate relating to style guides. 2017-07-28T09:13:34Z BW^-: beach: what are algorithms for doing that translation work - from graph to one or more spanning trees ???? 2017-07-28T09:13:42Z Shinmera: Well, as I mentioned the other day, CL attracts a lot of individualists and people that want to do their own thing, so differing opinions about style is practically a given. 2017-07-28T09:13:54Z beach: BW^-: Just a depth-first-search will do. 2017-07-28T09:14:01Z clintm: oh, I see, the pittman norvig and when issue. 2017-07-28T09:14:36Z BW^-: beach: it may be asking a lot, but, i "can't see it as a picture" yet, would you mind refering me to some slideshow PDF/PPT or video that shows *geometrically* how such a translation would work out? 2017-07-28T09:14:38Z beach: BW^-: Collect edges as you track them and mark vertices so that they aren't visited twice. 2017-07-28T09:14:51Z BW^-: beach: what about a dynamic algorithm for that?? 2017-07-28T09:15:14Z beach: Define "dynamic algorithm". 2017-07-28T09:15:17Z BW^-: beach: if i'm doing an "offline" algorithm as in no changes accepted, just one single pass from scratch, then I guess I see how i can do that. but i need a dynamic algorithm - there will be insertions and deletions. 2017-07-28T09:15:25Z BW^-: beach: dynamic algorithm as in my graph is dynamic! 2017-07-28T09:15:28Z beach: clintm: Yes, exactly. 2017-07-28T09:15:33Z BW^-: dynamic graph as in i'll do tons of vertex and edge additions and deletions 2017-07-28T09:15:49Z beach: BW^-: Oh, "incremental" then. I don't know any such algorithm. 2017-07-28T09:16:45Z BW^-: beach: there is one, and i have the paper, but I don't understand the paper =(((((((((((((((( 2017-07-28T09:16:59Z BW^-: beach: maybe someone explained this stuff. what could I search for at booksc.org etc. to find such an algorithm? 2017-07-28T09:17:10Z BW^-: beach: "dynamic graph to spanning tree translation"? 2017-07-28T09:17:28Z beach: BW^-: Sorry, I don't know. Never had the need for such a thing. 2017-07-28T09:18:19Z beach: BW^-: Understanding papers takes experience. My standard trick is to make sure I understand each word. Whenever I hit a word that doesn't make sense in the context, it is typically a technical term that I don't know about. 2017-07-28T09:19:26Z beach: ... or, more often, lousy technical or scientific writing. 2017-07-28T09:19:50Z BW^-: beach: lol 2017-07-28T09:19:51Z BW^-: beach: haha 2017-07-28T09:19:54Z BW^-: beach: well yeah something like that 2017-07-28T09:20:15Z BW^-: beach: this is a quite complex paper. also i ""hate"" mathemathical language, i understand geometrical examples and proofs much better :)) 2017-07-28T09:20:16Z BW^-: anyhow 2017-07-28T09:20:18Z BW^-: it'll sort out. 2017-07-28T09:20:28Z beach: Good luck. 2017-07-28T09:20:46Z BW^-: lol. yeah i need it. thanks. :) 2017-07-28T09:32:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:34:14Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:34:52Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T09:35:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:43:52Z phoe_: beach: !? 2017-07-28T09:44:25Z phoe_: I was mentioned with a notion that I need a better job. 2017-07-28T09:44:38Z phoe_: Well, it's true, but I read up on the logs and don't fully understand the context of mentioning me. 2017-07-28T09:46:59Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:47:29Z gingerale quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-28T09:47:34Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2017-07-28T09:47:50Z sparkyy_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T09:48:27Z jackdaniel: stylewarning looks for a full-grown CL programmer who wouldn't require mentoring and will be able to solve some tasks with FOSS software (for money) 2017-07-28T09:48:44Z jackdaniel: beach mentioned you in that context 2017-07-28T09:49:16Z sparkyy joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:50:22Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:52:10Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:52:48Z sparkyy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T09:57:50Z sparkyy joined #lisp 2017-07-28T09:59:14Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-28T10:02:52Z phoe_: hm 2017-07-28T10:03:02Z phoe_: am I full-grown yet? 2017-07-28T10:03:29Z phoe_: stylewarning: tell me more 2017-07-28T10:03:37Z clintm: I probably shouldn't think about finding a cl job until I'm not asking about , vs. ,@ and ,@(x (( :P 2017-07-28T10:04:01Z phoe_: , vs ,@ is explainable 2017-07-28T10:04:15Z phoe_: ,@(x (( - wat 2017-07-28T10:04:23Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-28T10:04:46Z phoe_: (let ((list (4 5 6))) `(1 2 3 ,list)) ;=> (1 2 3 (4 5 6)) 2017-07-28T10:04:53Z phoe_: uh 2017-07-28T10:04:59Z phoe_: (let ((list (list 4 5 6))) `(1 2 3 ,@list)) ;=> (1 2 3 (4 5 6)) 2017-07-28T10:05:01Z clintm: I pasted a question earlier about writing a macro interface to something else. I think I closed the tab. 2017-07-28T10:05:07Z phoe_: ... 2017-07-28T10:05:13Z phoe_: (let ((list (list 4 5 6))) `(1 2 3 ,list)) ;=> (1 2 3 (4 5 6)) 2017-07-28T10:05:21Z phoe_: (let ((list (list 4 5 6))) `(1 2 3 ,@list)) ;=> (1 2 3 4 5 6) 2017-07-28T10:05:22Z clintm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/351842 nope, I didn't. 2017-07-28T10:05:22Z phoe_: there 2017-07-28T10:05:26Z phoe_: these two lines 2017-07-28T10:05:33Z phoe_: clintm: ^ 2017-07-28T10:05:35Z clintm: pretty much, yea 2017-07-28T10:05:58Z jackdaniel: I just gave you a context, beach suggested you are at least partially grown according to log 2017-07-28T10:06:09Z phoe_: yes, I saw that 2017-07-28T10:06:23Z phoe_: now I am wondering if my partial growth is enough growth 2017-07-28T10:06:39Z phoe_: or if my growth still needs further growth 2017-07-28T10:08:23Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T10:10:20Z TMA: phoe_: your growth rate growth rate might need some growth as well 2017-07-28T10:12:03Z TMA: phoe_: you might be grown already -- but more is better :) 2017-07-28T10:12:57Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T10:13:30Z phoe_: that's growth growth growth 2017-07-28T10:14:04Z phoe_: geez, us at #lisp really have a habit of turning every discussion about foo into either a meta discussion about foo or a discussion about meta foo 2017-07-28T10:14:13Z phoe_: we need to go deeper 2017-07-28T10:14:18Z TMA: as I said ... the more the better 2017-07-28T10:14:44Z clintm: if a little is good, a lot's gotta be better, right? I mean, it just *has* to. 2017-07-28T10:14:49Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-28T10:14:57Z phoe_: clintm: that's how Java syntax was created. 2017-07-28T10:15:04Z clintm: o gawd 2017-07-28T10:17:40Z phoe_: where you don't have explicit syntax, you have public AbstractLanguageSyntax syntax = AbstractSyntaxBuilder.build(Syntax.JAVA, Syntax.EXPLICIT); 2017-07-28T10:18:07Z clintm: pretty sure there should be a Factory and a Bean or two there somewhere. 2017-07-28T10:18:52Z phoe_: these are in other class files. 2017-07-28T10:19:46Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T10:20:46Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2017-07-28T10:30:17Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-28T10:32:08Z pjb: stylewarning: I'm available as a free-lance CL programmer. Contact me at pjb@informatimago.com for more info. 2017-07-28T10:32:41Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-28T10:33:12Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-28T10:34:33Z phoe_: ^ 2017-07-28T10:34:37Z phoe_: pjb is much much more grown than me. 2017-07-28T10:34:44Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-28T10:35:06Z pjb: You can still compete ;-) 2017-07-28T10:35:54Z phoe_: pjb: I don't know if you'll like that. :D 2017-07-28T10:39:01Z phoe_: stylewarning: since mails are flung around: phoe@openmailbox.org 2017-07-28T10:41:37Z beach: phoe_: I am not doing the hiring for stylewarning, so I don't know the criteria. It just sounded to me that what he is faced with at the moment is to "grow" Common Lisp programmers from scratch. You are definitely more advanced that that. 2017-07-28T10:41:39Z beach: If you would be interested in something like that, if I were you, I would not hesitate applying. The company stylewarning works for would figure out whether you qualify. There is no shame in trying, as long as you are being honest about your qualifications. 2017-07-28T10:42:31Z beach: pjb: What is your rate? 2017-07-28T10:42:44Z pjb: Yes, growing lispers takes time. This may nullify the lisp advantage… 2017-07-28T10:43:06Z pjb: 400-500 €/day +VAT 2017-07-28T10:43:28Z beach: pjb: It might also be an investment. Ultimately, there would be more people available. 2017-07-28T10:43:34Z beach: pjb: Thanks. 2017-07-28T10:44:16Z pjb: Depends on the company. If it's established and can make the investment, certainly. Startups have shorter-term concerns and often cannot. 2017-07-28T10:44:29Z beach: True. 2017-07-28T10:44:55Z beach: Right then, I was thinking more of the reason I often put in the time to help out newbies. 2017-07-28T10:45:11Z pjb: We're not commercial companies here :-) 2017-07-28T10:45:16Z beach: Correct. 2017-07-28T10:45:23Z beach: I got sidetracked. 2017-07-28T10:49:24Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-28T10:52:36Z eagleflo_ is now known as eagleflo 2017-07-28T10:52:44Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T10:59:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-28T11:01:09Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-28T11:01:54Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-28T11:03:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-28T11:03:49Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:05:27Z MrMc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:09:01Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T11:11:29Z ryanwatkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T11:13:28Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:18:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-28T11:19:00Z phoe_: Growing lispers. Sounds pretty exciting, actually. 2017-07-28T11:19:09Z phoe_: Now I want to know the details. 2017-07-28T11:19:14Z sebboh` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:21:08Z Bike: like, in vats? 2017-07-28T11:21:49Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:22:11Z antoszka: phoe_: it's pretty easy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_reproduction 2017-07-28T11:22:22Z antoszka: [recommended reading] 2017-07-28T11:23:18Z phoe_: antoszka: wow, that's new stuff to me 2017-07-28T11:23:22Z phoe_: where did you find out about that? 2017-07-28T11:25:49Z antoszka: On the Wikipedia. 2017-07-28T11:27:22Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:27:59Z pjb: You need to find two lispers of different sexes first... Otherwise you only have 50% of chances of getting a new lisper :-) 2017-07-28T11:28:10Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-28T11:31:25Z sebboh` joined #lisp 2017-07-28T11:33:31Z edgar-rft: pjb: you can adopt one 2017-07-28T11:34:32Z edgar-rft: and maybe with grow lights growing gets faster 2017-07-28T11:35:09Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-28T11:35:57Z sebboh` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:38:13Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-28T11:40:00Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-07-28T12:01:47Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-28T12:18:19Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T12:18:22Z phoe_: What is a way of destructively splitting a list into a list of elements that satisfy a predicate and a list of elements that don't? 2017-07-28T12:18:42Z phoe_: While preserving the order? 2017-07-28T12:19:03Z phoe_: With #'ODDP and (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) I want to get (1 3 5 7 9) (0 2 4 6 8) 2017-07-28T12:21:11Z phoe_: I could write it myself, but NIH syndrome. 2017-07-28T12:23:24Z beach: You may have to write it yourself. 2017-07-28T12:25:36Z lieven: it's a one liner 2017-07-28T12:25:50Z beach: A little more if you want to reuse the CONS cells. 2017-07-28T12:26:12Z lieven: (loop for x in '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) if (oddp x) collect x into odds else collect x into evens finally (return (list odds evens))) 2017-07-28T12:26:25Z beach: That's not destructive. 2017-07-28T12:26:27Z lieven: not much chance of reusing cons cells 2017-07-28T12:26:39Z phoe_: lieven: I want it not to cons. 2017-07-28T12:26:54Z phoe_: It's a one-liner in loop, but I want a destructive version. 2017-07-28T12:26:55Z beach: lieven: Why is there not much chance of that? 2017-07-28T12:27:26Z lieven: phoe_: do it with loop into a scratch buffer and copy-into the original 2017-07-28T12:27:49Z phoe_: lieven: I need to cons up the scratch buffer :) 2017-07-28T12:28:10Z lieven: phoe_: make that one static and large enough. no one needs reentrant code anyway. 2017-07-28T12:29:01Z lieven: phoe_: seriously, if you need that kind of semantics, the data structure to use might be a vector 2017-07-28T12:29:17Z pjb: phoe_: If you really want to re-use the cons cells, you will have to write it. 2017-07-28T12:29:27Z beach: lieven: What he wants would be typical for an implementation of quicksort on a list. 2017-07-28T12:29:48Z pjb: And easy (but O(nlogn)) way would be to sort the elements before splitting. 2017-07-28T12:30:17Z beach: pjb: Provided the domain has an order. 2017-07-28T12:30:33Z beach: Oh, the order would be the predicate. 2017-07-28T12:30:35Z pjb: always: (sort list (lambda (a b) (and (funcall predicate a) (not (funcall predicate b))))) 2017-07-28T12:30:35Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-28T12:31:12Z pjb: (let ((predicate 'oddp)) (sort '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) (lambda (a b) (and (funcall predicate a) (not (funcall predicate b)))))) #| --> (1 3 5 7 9 0 2 4 6 8) |# 2017-07-28T12:32:34Z edgar-rft: AFAIK splitting one list into two lists needs at least one new cons 2017-07-28T12:32:41Z phoe_: edgar-rft: no, why? 2017-07-28T12:32:48Z pjb: Nope. Just a (setf (cdr last) nil) 2017-07-28T12:32:49Z phoe_: (1 2) ;=> (1) (2) 2017-07-28T12:32:58Z phoe_: or (1 . (2 . NIL)) => (1 . NIL) (2 . NIL) 2017-07-28T12:33:22Z pjb: (let ((list (list 1 2))) (let ((a list) (b (cdr list))) (setf (cdr a) nil) (values a b))) #| --> (1) ; (2) |# 2017-07-28T12:34:33Z pjb: Otherwise you can always use replace to make a non-destructive operation into a destructive one ;-) 2017-07-28T12:35:26Z pjb: cffi has a lot of problems. Of the biggests: It transforms structs in structs into pointers. It cannot deal with #pragma pack. 2017-07-28T12:35:31Z Shinmera: If you want it to not cons and can't afford a scratch space either just bubble sort I guess. 2017-07-28T12:35:33Z pjb: Barely usable… 2017-07-28T12:36:11Z pjb: Shinmera: well since we have a predicate, it'll be easier than a bubble sort. 2017-07-28T12:36:39Z phoe_: Wait a second, I'll whip up a O(n) solution in a minute. 2017-07-28T12:37:08Z pjb: ie. instead of collecting elements, we can just knit the cells. 2017-07-28T12:37:13Z lieven: sort is permitted but not required to be destructive 2017-07-28T12:38:56Z beach: phoe_: Would you like to post my implementation of it? 2017-07-28T12:39:03Z beach: paste, rather. 2017-07-28T12:39:24Z phoe_: beach: oh, you already have it? Sure! 2017-07-28T12:39:43Z pjb: But loop is not convenient, it seems we cannot touch the cell while looping on a list… 2017-07-28T12:39:44Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-28T12:39:47Z beach: Give me a few seconds. 2017-07-28T12:40:27Z phoe_: pjb: Yes. LOOP is useless here since changing the list we iterate on is undefined behaviour. 2017-07-28T12:40:30Z phoe_: Time for DO. 2017-07-28T12:40:59Z beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+7JHW 2017-07-28T12:42:59Z phoe_: Exactly. Thanks! 2017-07-28T12:43:08Z beach: Sure. Fun exercise. 2017-07-28T12:43:36Z phoe_: ...that's LOOP that's essentially a DO. 2017-07-28T12:43:50Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-28T12:43:57Z beach: I just prefer LOOP. 2017-07-28T12:44:03Z phoe_: Yes, got it. 2017-07-28T12:44:19Z phoe_: Mind if I paste it on gist for later usage? 2017-07-28T12:44:31Z beach: Do what you want with it. 2017-07-28T12:44:53Z beach: I could have used for rest = list then (cdr rest). That would have been more LOOP-y. 2017-07-28T12:45:50Z phoe_: https://gist.github.com/phoe/0ae2bdf01366431512326a2ee49b36c1 - thanks! 2017-07-28T12:55:13Z fluxit joined #lisp 2017-07-28T12:56:58Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T12:58:53Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-28T13:00:49Z Devon joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:01:35Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:01:43Z phoe_: shit 2017-07-28T13:01:49Z phoe_: I just created an empty readtable 2017-07-28T13:01:59Z phoe_: and IN-READTABLEd myself into it 2017-07-28T13:02:03Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:04:41Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T13:05:26Z Shinmera: Opening a second slime connection might help 2017-07-28T13:05:49Z phoe_: I tried reconnecting slime. Did not help. 2017-07-28T13:05:58Z phoe_: Ah well, I just restarted the image. 2017-07-28T13:06:24Z phoe_: I'll need to make a Jesus symbol macro of sorts that is going to save me in such situations. 2017-07-28T13:07:00Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-28T13:08:49Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T13:09:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:10:01Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T13:10:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:12:09Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:15:43Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T13:15:55Z minion joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:17:10Z slark quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-28T13:18:01Z pjb: I've got a CoreMIDI/cffi layer that starts to work (I can send and receive MIDI events): https://framagit.org/patchwork/CoreMIDI (No docstring, cf. Apple's CoreMIDI doc). Have fun. 2017-07-28T13:21:22Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T13:22:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:24:15Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:25:49Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:33:37Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:34:47Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T13:37:13Z hvxgr quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-28T13:39:48Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:42:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:43:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:46:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-28T13:47:34Z xantoz joined #lisp 2017-07-28T13:51:24Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:00:09Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:10:39Z foom joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:12:49Z shka: pjb: you are making generative music? 2017-07-28T14:12:55Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-28T14:13:07Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T14:14:58Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:14:58Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:15:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:16:12Z pjb: shka: working on Patchwork. 2017-07-28T14:16:34Z shka: phoe_: or just say screw that and do clojure style juxt 2017-07-28T14:16:49Z pjb: shka: So, not me, the musician is making it. I'm just porting the application to MacOSX. 2017-07-28T14:16:56Z shka: pjb: oh, ok. 2017-07-28T14:17:36Z shka: i don't know why, but there is something attractive in using lisp to generate music 2017-07-28T14:19:10Z oleo: lol 2017-07-28T14:19:16Z oleo: which one are you using ? 2017-07-28T14:19:27Z oleo: i only know of just 1 2017-07-28T14:19:41Z oleo: and even generated a few sounds with it..... 2017-07-28T14:20:05Z oleo: however i'm not a musician ...so i didn't compose anything..... 2017-07-28T14:20:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T14:20:52Z oleo: you have to get the sequences right and then tune the effects and durations and whatnot..... 2017-07-28T14:21:02Z oleo: gets pretty complicated soon.... 2017-07-28T14:21:33Z oleo: but for incremental tuning it's good 2017-07-28T14:21:51Z oleo: just like with any tracker software 2017-07-28T14:22:51Z oleo: i'd prefer a realtime synth anyway..... other than for the inital feel of the music which you can compose via the tracker etc.... 2017-07-28T14:22:55Z shka: oleo: i can't compose 2017-07-28T14:23:02Z oleo: ya me too 2017-07-28T14:23:04Z shka: i'm just fascinated by the idea 2017-07-28T14:23:08Z oleo: hmm ok 2017-07-28T14:23:27Z oleo: well, actually i could but it would take months and years..... 2017-07-28T14:23:46Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:24:12Z oleo: until you get used to all the stuff and find out some tricks etc....and know how to run stuff without the need for experimenting anymore.... 2017-07-28T14:24:54Z oleo: anyway all is good if you have some music theory.... 2017-07-28T14:25:18Z oleo: that's definitely an advantage 2017-07-28T14:25:28Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T14:27:52Z grumble quit (Ping timeout: 624 seconds) 2017-07-28T14:31:03Z gigetoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T14:31:16Z pjb: oleo: lisp (and live programming) can and are used to produce real time music. 2017-07-28T14:31:44Z oleo: err, didn't know that 2017-07-28T14:32:04Z oleo: you mean like controlling the synthesizer ? or other hardware ? 2017-07-28T14:32:09Z pjb: http://overtone.github.io/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY1FSsUV-8c 2017-07-28T14:32:22Z pjb: that, or just synthesizing directly from lisp. 2017-07-28T14:32:26Z oleo: ok 2017-07-28T14:32:39Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:32:56Z pjb: and also with visual effects: http://blog.josephwilk.net/art/live-coding-repl-electric.html 2017-07-28T14:33:26Z pjb: (of course, some emacs or clojure may slip into the mix). 2017-07-28T14:37:04Z pjb: emacs + ccl + glx + sound + korean ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oxAlVFAG2k 2017-07-28T14:42:11Z oleo: err 2017-07-28T14:42:34Z oleo: na i only used clm 2017-07-28T14:42:35Z oleo: raw 2017-07-28T14:42:38Z oleo: from the repl 2017-07-28T14:42:41Z oleo: lol 2017-07-28T14:43:02Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T14:47:26Z phoe_: Which library has a function to reintern a symbol in a different package? 2017-07-28T14:47:42Z phoe_: Like, (reintern 'foo:bar :baz) ;=> BAZ::BAR 2017-07-28T14:47:53Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:47:59Z Grue``: why do you need a function for that 2017-07-28T14:48:02Z phoe_: Not destructively - it just interns a new symbol with name BAR in backage BAZ 2017-07-28T14:48:16Z phoe_: Grue``: because (intern (string symbol) :bar) is somewhat long 2017-07-28T14:49:47Z Grue``: it's not. (concatenate 'string s1 s2) is longer and it's a standard idiom ;) 2017-07-28T14:50:16Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-28T14:51:01Z phoe_: I hate that idiom and always (defun cat (&rest strings) (apply #'concatenate 'string strings)) 2017-07-28T14:51:21Z phoe_: :D 2017-07-28T14:51:31Z Bike: the reintern form is seven less characters than the intern/string. 2017-07-28T14:51:50Z phoe_: fiiiine. 2017-07-28T14:54:42Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-07-28T14:56:57Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2017-07-28T14:58:01Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T15:00:54Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T15:03:02Z pjb: yes, but this cat is wrong. You need: (defun cat (&rest strings) (if (<= (length strings) (1- call-arguments-limit)) (apply #'concatenate 'string strings) (concatenate 'string (first string) (apply #'concatenate 'string (rest strings))))) 2017-07-28T15:04:27Z phoe_: pjb: no, why? I'm calling this function with one argument less than the maximum of (concatenate 'string ...) 2017-07-28T15:04:35Z phoe_: so if (concatenate 'string ...) fits, so does (cat ...) 2017-07-28T15:04:40Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:05:02Z phoe_: oh 2017-07-28T15:05:05Z pjb: Yes. 2017-07-28T15:05:10Z phoe_: ooh, I think I got your point now. 2017-07-28T15:05:52Z pjb: Of course, with at least 50, we don't mind if we're limited to 49 instead, and with some implementations it's unlimited anyways, so it doesn't matter, but for exact correctness, here you have it. 2017-07-28T15:06:27Z phoe_: For more than a few strings I'll use with-output-to-string. 2017-07-28T15:06:33Z Shinmera: Or just (format NIL "~{~a~}" strings) 2017-07-28T15:06:46Z phoe_: hah 2017-07-28T15:06:47Z pjb: It's really implemenntation dependent which is better. 2017-07-28T15:07:15Z pjb: concatenate can computer the total length and allocate a single block. with-output-to-string will have to provide only AMORTIZED O(n). 2017-07-28T15:07:43Z pjb: If found my first bug by ear :-) 2017-07-28T15:08:31Z pjb: (35 years ago, I was finding bugs from a single pixel on a bitmap screeen). 2017-07-28T15:09:46Z pjb: That makes me think about those ancient programmers who used an AM radio receiver near mainframes in the 60s to detect bugs in running programs… 2017-07-28T15:10:05Z pjb: This could still be done with current systems, but with GHz receivers. 2017-07-28T15:10:52Z xantoz quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-07-28T15:12:23Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-28T15:12:39Z p_l: pjb: by ear is still popular method of recognising buggy behaviour... and I'm not talking about code touching sound 2017-07-28T15:13:02Z Shinmera: pjb: There's papers published about intercepting keypresses on laptops using fluctuations in the wifi signals. 2017-07-28T15:13:13Z p_l: the sound of cooling working can be a fast proxy for some issues 2017-07-28T15:13:47Z pjb: Indeed. Ventilator on Mac computers… 2017-07-28T15:14:32Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T15:15:19Z easye: pjb: I hadn't heard about AM radio debugging! Is there a source you can recommend to learn about that or is the story part of computer folk history? 2017-07-28T15:20:39Z pjb: Well, it could never be a systematic and definite debugging tool, but it certainly could be used by programmers and operators to detect unusual behavior. I can witness having seen (and heard) an AM radio on top of the IBM 3031 I programmed on back in 1982, and I've read about this several times elsewhere too. 2017-07-28T15:21:39Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2017-07-28T15:21:44Z pjb: Like, they had some kind of magnetic powder to debug magnetic tapes. With it you could easily see the blocks and even read the bytes on those half-inch tapes. (9 bit over half an inch are clearly readable). 2017-07-28T15:21:59Z dlowe: I remember being able to hear infinite loops on old microcomputers. 2017-07-28T15:22:35Z pjb: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/10-things/10-things-i-miss-about-big-iron/ 2017-07-28T15:23:11Z dlowe: It may have been something only young people could do, but there was a very high pitched whine to it when the cpu would spin 2017-07-28T15:26:47Z easye: I guess the closest I ever got to that was figuring out that a Sun 3 was swapping due to the disk chatter. But that was obvious from how slow the system got anyways... 2017-07-28T15:28:02Z Xach: heh 2017-07-28T15:28:58Z easye: With 4Mib of RAM, it wasn't hard to mess up the VM system with data reduction unless you were careful. 2017-07-28T15:28:59Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T15:29:14Z beach: I worked a summer job where they had implemented a program that played Bolero. The paper tape reader did the rhythm. 2017-07-28T15:29:39Z easye: And there are stories about making hard drives walk... 2017-07-28T15:35:42Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:37:47Z rumble joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:37:49Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T15:39:32Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-28T15:40:36Z stylewarning: beach: your comments are of course correct 2017-07-28T15:40:51Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:41:12Z beach: Which ones? :) 2017-07-28T15:41:33Z phoe_: gah, I think I made CL-PROTEST somewhat sturdy today 2017-07-28T15:41:47Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-28T15:41:50Z phoe_: and I avoided making another testing framework so far, instead utilizing 1am. 2017-07-28T15:42:10Z phoe_: Now to interface the test framework away and connect it to Parachute. 2017-07-28T15:43:49Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T15:43:54Z stylewarning: beach: regarding application 2017-07-28T15:44:11Z stylewarning: (Of humans to companies; not functions to values) 2017-07-28T15:44:37Z phoe_: stylewarning: I have some news from my side. I'm occupied with work and keeping my family stabilized financially. 2017-07-28T15:44:42Z phoe_: So it's impossible for me to take risks such as jumping off the corporate paycheck to something that might be rewarding me as a programmer but also risky or lower financially. 2017-07-28T15:45:18Z phoe_: So while I will want to hear more about your project because I'm quite interested in promoting Lisp, I doubt I'll be able to be a full-time supporter. 2017-07-28T15:46:05Z beach: stylewarning: Ah, OK. Good. 2017-07-28T15:46:18Z stylewarning: phoe_: I don't think I ever made any asks :) 2017-07-28T15:46:49Z phoe_: stylewarning: you haven't, indeed, but since I showed you some interest, I think it's fair to also clarify if I'm able or unable to pick up the interesting stuff. 2017-07-28T15:47:25Z beach: phoe_: stylewarning may pay better than your current job. 2017-07-28T15:47:58Z stylewarning: I think it's all interesting of course. Full-time work or some FOSS contract work. 2017-07-28T15:48:54Z stylewarning: (But the full-time work is local-only in Northern California) 2017-07-28T15:50:16Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:50:37Z sparkyy_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:51:52Z sparkyy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T15:52:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:53:06Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:53:39Z pjb: That's quite fun! 2017-07-28T15:53:44Z grumble is now known as grumble2 2017-07-28T15:53:44Z rumble is now known as grumble 2017-07-28T15:53:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-07-28T15:54:07Z pjb: stylewarning: oh, currently I only do remote work. Sorry. 2017-07-28T15:55:40Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-28T16:00:19Z grumble2 quit (Quit: brb) 2017-07-28T16:03:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:10:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T16:10:47Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:10:52Z slark: hello 2017-07-28T16:11:09Z beach: Hello slark. 2017-07-28T16:11:50Z slark: in english i would describe '(1 2 (3 4)) as a list of 3 element and the third elem is a a list of 2 element 2017-07-28T16:12:02Z slark: but how would i describle '(1 2 '(3 4)) 2017-07-28T16:12:03Z slark: ? 2017-07-28T16:12:18Z sjl__: "probably a mistake" 2017-07-28T16:12:20Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-07-28T16:12:25Z stylewarning: ^ 2017-07-28T16:12:28Z slark: sjl: lol thx 2017-07-28T16:12:47Z sjl: what it actually evaluates to is (1 2 (quote (3 4))) 2017-07-28T16:12:52Z stylewarning: (but a list of 3 elements, the third of which is a list of two elements) 2017-07-28T16:12:54Z sjl: which is probably not what was intended 2017-07-28T16:16:10Z ptdel joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:22:22Z Younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T16:24:51Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:29:23Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:32:49Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T16:33:19Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T16:37:32Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:40:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T16:42:19Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:42:32Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T16:47:18Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T16:48:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2017-07-28T16:52:47Z ptdel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-28T17:01:26Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:01:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T17:02:42Z slark quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-28T17:04:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T17:07:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:10:42Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:13:29Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T17:17:33Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T17:19:19Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T17:21:53Z clintm` joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:22:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T17:25:06Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:25:24Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:26:20Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T17:28:49Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T17:29:03Z oleo: so is it possible to turn off the garbage collector unconditionally or just for a while ? 2017-07-28T17:29:14Z oleo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SUdnOUKGmo 2017-07-28T17:31:05Z Bike: depends on implementation 2017-07-28T17:31:50Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:32:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T17:33:57Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T17:37:24Z ptdel joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:40:30Z ptdel: hello everybody ^_^ I was wondering if somebody more seasons in CL could tell me if I am goofing or not. I made a rolling-hmac function that I *think* is generating a valid hmac but I'm not sure if i'm making a mistep syntax-wise http://sprunge.us/CTdj 2017-07-28T17:40:36Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-28T17:41:05Z ptdel: it's supposed to be doing thing hmac(var3 hmac(var2 hmac(var1 key))) basically 2017-07-28T17:46:45Z dschoepe quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2017-07-28T17:48:55Z clintm`: First cup of coffee this am, but that should be easy enough to test, shouldn't it? If your hash matches a hash from a known good implementation, then you got it right. Erm, right? 2017-07-28T17:49:43Z ptdel: clintm`: you are right, i should get coffee and write this in python too 2017-07-28T17:49:50Z ptdel: idk why i didn't think to just do that first rofl 2017-07-28T17:51:19Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-28T17:51:20Z clintm`: What if you fat-finger something in the python version? or is it as easy as loading a couple of libraries and calling one or more of the functions with a string? 2017-07-28T17:52:00Z ptdel: in python it's so dang easy i think it's something like a one liner 2017-07-28T17:52:37Z ptdel: hmac.new(mey msg.encode('utf-8'), hashlib.sha256).hexdigest() 2017-07-28T17:52:37Z clintm`: oh, right on. 2017-07-28T17:52:38Z ptdel: lol 2017-07-28T17:52:56Z ptdel: ty sorry i should have just rubbed my brain cells together there 2017-07-28T17:54:32Z clintm`: Naw, no worries. I can't say I've never done the same thing. :) 2017-07-28T17:54:52Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:00:44Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:10:16Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:13:30Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:17:11Z big_num joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:17:14Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:21:48Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:22:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:23:38Z shka_: how fast find on portable hashtable implementation can run when compared to sbcl implementation? 2017-07-28T18:23:55Z shka_: portable = no sbcl specific hacks 2017-07-28T18:24:12Z shka_: how fast = order of magnitude 2017-07-28T18:24:52Z clintm` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T18:25:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:25:51Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:27:35Z Bike: um, did you make a typo or something? 2017-07-28T18:28:25Z shka_: not sure 2017-07-28T18:28:35Z shka_: i did not sleep well this week 2017-07-28T18:28:45Z shka_: anyway 2017-07-28T18:29:06Z shka_: i wrote portable hashtable 2017-07-28T18:30:15Z shka_: however find takes from 4× to 5× more time when compared to sbcl's gethash 2017-07-28T18:30:19Z shka_: on strings 2017-07-28T18:30:46Z Bike: I mean, "how fast find" isn't grammatical. 2017-07-28T18:31:01Z shka_: hm, i guess 2017-07-28T18:31:08Z shka_: sorry 2017-07-28T18:32:10Z shka_: i'm just wondering if I should call it good enough 2017-07-28T18:33:19Z Bock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:33:30Z Bike: i don't think sbcl does anything especially tricky with hash tables, so it might be possible to be faster. 2017-07-28T18:34:27Z Bike: i mean, in that it doesn't have assembly routines or anything. 2017-07-28T18:34:39Z shka_: right 2017-07-28T18:34:41Z shka_: thanks 2017-07-28T18:35:38Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T18:39:20Z notbarton joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:39:26Z notbarton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T18:39:41Z tanguy joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:41:23Z tanguy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T18:44:12Z phoe_: Does any library have a portable FIND-PACKAGE-OR-LOSE? 2017-07-28T18:46:17Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:46:29Z phoe_: UIOP:FIND-PACKAGE* - found it. 2017-07-28T18:47:33Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:51:19Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:51:44Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:51:50Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:52:56Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2017-07-28T18:53:49Z phoe_: ...UIOP has so many convenient functions. 2017-07-28T18:55:23Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:55:49Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T18:55:56Z __main__ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-28T18:57:20Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T18:58:08Z __main__ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-28T18:59:19Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T19:06:26Z phoe_: I want to write a custom printing function that prints symbols as if with ~A but all other objects as with ~S. How should I approach this? 2017-07-28T19:09:42Z Bike: (defun phoeprint (object) (if (symbolp object) (princ object) (prin1 object))), no? 2017-07-28T19:10:09Z jackdaniel: (defun my-format (stream fmt-string args) (apply format string fmt-string (mapcar (lambda (o) (if (symbolp o) (format nil "~s" o) (format nil "~a" o))))) 2017-07-28T19:10:55Z jackdaniel: or princ/ prin1 in lambda 2017-07-28T19:11:39Z jackdaniel: with with-output-to-string 2017-07-28T19:13:14Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-28T19:13:58Z phoe_: It's a bit more complicated. Basically, I will have data in form of lists that can contain numbers, symbols, strings, lists. 2017-07-28T19:14:20Z phoe_: I want to print symbols without any package information (so ~A) but strings readably (so ~S). 2017-07-28T19:14:26Z Bike: oh, you want this to apply to inner structures as well? 2017-07-28T19:14:30Z phoe_: Yes. 2017-07-28T19:14:41Z phoe_: That's where it stops being trivial. 2017-07-28T19:14:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T19:14:58Z shka_: why? 2017-07-28T19:15:09Z phoe_: I found a hack where I traverse the list and replace all symbols with equally-named gensyms and then bind *print-gensym* which gives me the result I want. 2017-07-28T19:15:33Z phoe_: shka_: I want to print stuff like (foo bar "baz" (quux 3)) to strings in a readable format in order to send it over the network. 2017-07-28T19:16:01Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T19:16:14Z shka_: ok 2017-07-28T19:16:19Z shka_: but why it is not trivial? 2017-07-28T19:16:22Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-28T19:16:27Z Bike: if you eliminate packages from all symbols it won't generally be readable. 2017-07-28T19:17:16Z sebboh` joined #lisp 2017-07-28T19:17:27Z phoe_: okay - quasi-readable, you're right. 2017-07-28T19:17:57Z phoe_: shka_: because it can't be solved by neither ~A nor ~S. 2017-07-28T19:18:43Z shka_: uh, can't you write good old tree walking function? 2017-07-28T19:18:46Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T19:19:18Z phoe_: of course I can, but writing a traversal function is a bit further from "trivial" in my dictionary. :D 2017-07-28T19:19:25Z Shinmera: phoe_: copy-pprint-dispatch, set-pprint-dispatch for symbol? 2017-07-28T19:19:34Z Shinmera: Then bind that for your printing function 2017-07-28T19:19:46Z phoe_: Shinmera: !? 2017-07-28T19:19:49Z phoe_: I forgot about this thing. 2017-07-28T19:19:51Z phoe_: Let me read up on this. 2017-07-28T19:20:37Z Bike: pretty printing isn't readable though... 2017-07-28T19:20:38Z ptdel: back again if anybody can help ^_^ i got my hmac function working but am strugging to make another function to use it recursively http://sprunge.us/Aaig it seems any loop I tr gets me this type error :( 2017-07-28T19:20:55Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T19:21:22Z Bike: you do a loop and then recurse in it? 2017-07-28T19:21:25Z ptdel: i'll admit i'm not sure what the appropriate (loop mechanism would be, originall i tried (if (null lst) nil 2017-07-28T19:21:30Z sebboh` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T19:21:31Z phoe_: ptdel: do you have a stacktrace? 2017-07-28T19:22:09Z Bike: i mean, how would you write this out in terms of hmac-sign for this particular argument? (hmac-sign 'this (hmac-sign 'key message))?? 2017-07-28T19:22:12Z Bike: -? 2017-07-28T19:22:39Z ptdel: for one iteration it would be the first function (hmac-sign "key" "value") 2017-07-28T19:23:04Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T19:23:05Z Bike: that doesn't exactly answer my question. 2017-07-28T19:23:14Z ptdel: so it's sorta like (hmac-sign "value2" (hmac-sign "key" "value1")) 2017-07-28T19:23:19Z ptdel: is what i'm going for 2017-07-28T19:23:34Z ptdel: sorry if i'm bad at explaining I am a lisp neophyte :( 2017-07-28T19:23:39Z Bike: okay, so what is passed to recurse-hmac? 2017-07-28T19:23:47Z _death: clhs reduce 2017-07-28T19:23:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm 2017-07-28T19:24:02Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-07-28T19:24:06Z ptdel: it would be a list '("value3" "value2" "value1") 2017-07-28T19:24:24Z Bike: that's... why is that not what you passed in the example then? 2017-07-28T19:24:31Z Bike: and where does the key come from? 2017-07-28T19:24:44Z ptdel: thats just the value i was using 2017-07-28T19:24:53Z ptdel: "this" and "key" are just "value1" "value2" 2017-07-28T19:24:56Z ptdel: for that function 2017-07-28T19:25:19Z Bike: okay, and what is the "key" in (hmac-sign "value2" (hmac-sign "key" "value1"))? 2017-07-28T19:25:36Z ptdel: it'd just be the first element of the list i provide 2017-07-28T19:26:00Z Bike: So given (recurse-hmac '("this" "key")), what would the calls to hmac-sign look like? 2017-07-28T19:26:14Z Bike: (hmac-sign "key" "value")? 2017-07-28T19:26:21Z Bike: er, (hmac-sign "this" "key") i mean. 2017-07-28T19:27:07Z ptdel: yeah (hmac-sign ) just takes two arguments and makes an hmac of the first, updates it with the second, and then returns a digest 2017-07-28T19:27:27Z ptdel: and what i want to do is take that resulting digest, and put it through to make a new key, and update it with the second value in my list of values i pass 2017-07-28T19:27:33Z Bike: Okay, so how would (recurse-hmac '("this "key")) go. 2017-07-28T19:27:35Z Bike: er. 2017-07-28T19:27:42Z Bike: (recurse-hmac '("one" "two" "three")) 2017-07-28T19:28:04Z Bike: (hmac-sign "one" (hmac-sign "two" "three"))? 2017-07-28T19:28:47Z ptdel: yeah you got it 2017-07-28T19:29:25Z ptdel: my current recurse-hmac just says it exhausts resources for being infinite lol 2017-07-28T19:30:06Z Bike: okay, so the easy way to do it is like death said: (reduce #'hmac-sign '("one" "two" "three") :from-end t) 2017-07-28T19:30:23Z ptdel: oh i am sorry _death I didn't realize that was directed at me 2017-07-28T19:30:30Z ptdel: wow that is damn simple 2017-07-28T19:30:42Z Bike: recursively, it would be like (defun recursive-hmac (list) (if (= (length list) 2) (hmac-sign (first list) (second list)) (hmac-sign (first list) (recursive-hmac (rest list)))) 2017-07-28T19:31:11Z ptdel: ah ok so reduce is clearly the better choice here 2017-07-28T19:31:44Z ptdel: Bike _death you are awesome thank you so much for helping me understand this better. I'm still trying to get a hang of everything :-p 2017-07-28T19:31:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T19:32:09Z _death: but you should try writing a function like reduce yourself as well 2017-07-28T19:32:36Z ptdel: _death i've been reading practical common lisp would they have some examples in there of a reduce function in cl? 2017-07-28T19:33:15Z _death: you can read the link given by minion to my query 2017-07-28T19:33:27Z _death: er, specbot 2017-07-28T19:34:05Z phoe_: Shinmera: haha, it's not that simple 2017-07-28T19:34:33Z ptdel: oh nice thank you! it worked, i am on top of the world guys 2017-07-28T19:35:37Z phoe_: I just blew up my stack by telling the pretty-printer to call the pretty-printer. 2017-07-28T19:35:44Z phoe_: But I got it at the second try. 2017-07-28T19:36:21Z _death: to make it simple, implement a function that takes a function, a list, and an initial value.. and calls the function in the appropriate way.. so (reduce #'* '(2 3 4) :initial-value 1) gives the same result as (* (* (* 1 2) 3) 4) 2017-07-28T19:39:06Z ptdel: ah ok that makes sense 2017-07-28T19:39:16Z ptdel: sounds like an ideal situation for let :) 2017-07-28T19:41:01Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-28T19:41:04Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T19:45:42Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T19:58:12Z pjb: I should write a series of CL books. «Common Lisp nature», «Common Lisp assaisonné», «Common Lisp épicé». :-) 2017-07-28T19:58:34Z phoe_: «The Life and Times of Common Lisp» 2017-07-28T19:58:53Z pjb: ie. "Raw Common Lisp", "Seasonned Common Lisp" and "Spicy Common Lisp". 2017-07-28T19:59:30Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-28T19:59:38Z _death: Lisp bourguignon 2017-07-28T20:00:50Z pjb: That could be a chapter, indeed :-) 2017-07-28T20:02:32Z pjb: phoe_: (defun cl-user::as (stream arg colon at &rest parameters) (declare (ignore colon at parameters)) (format stream (if (symbolp arg) "~A" "~S") arg)) (format t "~{~/as/~^~}~%" '(foo :bar "baz")) 2017-07-28T20:02:59Z phoe_: pjb: thanks - I already solved it using pprint. 2017-07-28T20:03:07Z phoe_: It's simple enough for my use case. 2017-07-28T20:03:23Z pjb: Sure, but the way you stated it, I feel it calls for a custom formatter. 2017-07-28T20:03:48Z phoe_: I thought the same, but then I realized that it'd need to be quite recursive. Your solution does not work for (foo bar (((((baz "quux)))))) I think. 2017-07-28T20:03:56Z pjb: Right. 2017-07-28T20:04:25Z pjb: pretty-printer it will be. Someday I'll have to learn it… 2017-07-28T20:05:27Z phoe_: It's crazy. 2017-07-28T20:05:40Z phoe_: I just blew up my stack trying to use it. 2017-07-28T20:06:35Z pjb: It happens often with printing code… Notably when printing errors. 2017-07-28T20:06:39Z phoe_: No no. 2017-07-28T20:06:48Z pjb: that is, if printing errors signals an error that needs to be printed… 2017-07-28T20:06:51Z phoe_: I told the pretty-printer to call the pretty-printer when printing symbols. 2017-07-28T20:06:54Z phoe_: There were no errors. 2017-07-28T20:06:58Z phoe_: Just infinite recursion. 2017-07-28T20:07:39Z phoe_: Also, CL-PROTEST just got its first somewhat-serious usage. http://paste.lisp.org/display/351888 2017-07-28T20:07:58Z Bike: you didn't drop the cl-? 2017-07-28T20:08:03Z phoe_: Bike: I will 2017-07-28T20:08:11Z phoe_: (tomorrow) 2017-07-28T20:08:26Z phoe_: (and I purposefully don't precise which tomorrow it will be) 2017-07-28T20:11:43Z ptdel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-28T20:13:42Z drcode quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-28T20:15:48Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:18:10Z amz3 joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:18:27Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T20:20:50Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:20:55Z phoe_: Bike: there, tomorrow came early for me 2017-07-28T20:20:56Z phoe_: https://github.com/phoe/protest 2017-07-28T20:21:56Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-28T20:22:50Z Bike: cool 2017-07-28T20:23:42Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T20:24:06Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:24:16Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-28T20:27:48Z ski joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:28:13Z g0d355__ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:32:02Z c__ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:32:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:32:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T20:33:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:34:30Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-28T20:39:11Z jsjolen joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:39:46Z Grue`: ok there's definitely a regression in hunchentoot performance on windows between 2017-01-24 and the current quicklisp dist... now gotta use binary search to find where it broke 2017-07-28T20:41:26Z _death: git-bisect is always fun 2017-07-28T20:42:12Z jsjolen: I think there's a library that helps you with parsing defun, defclass, etc. bodies (so you get the declarations, slots and so on for macro writing). Anyone remember if this is a thing or if I'm dreaming? 2017-07-28T20:43:40Z Grue`: the funnest part is that every time I change quicklisp dist version, it removes quicklisp-slime-helper so I have to reinstall it, and then reinstall everything else 2017-07-28T20:43:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T20:44:13Z _death: uh, I thought you'd just clone hunchentoot repo 2017-07-28T20:44:33Z XachX: Grue`: wow, that shouldn't happen 2017-07-28T20:44:42Z Grue`: i'm not sure the bug is in hunchentoot 2017-07-28T20:44:52Z Grue`: i think it's probably usocket actually 2017-07-28T20:44:57Z Shinmera: jsjolen: There's multiple ones. For functions/lambdas/methods there's form-fiddle. 2017-07-28T20:45:37Z Shinmera: Can't recall what the other ones were called unfortunately. 2017-07-28T20:45:40Z Grue`: XachX: well the comment here says it removes all packages so i thought it's to be expected http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html 2017-07-28T20:48:12Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:48:18Z jsjolen: Shinmera:Hm, I guess defclass is easy enough to parse yourself. 2017-07-28T20:55:53Z gendl: Hi, I have a piece of code which has a dispatch character #? which is not defined in some of the Lisps where I need to compile/load it - 2017-07-28T20:56:07Z gendl: in such lisps, the code doesn't have to do anything, it can be ignored/skipped over, 2017-07-28T20:56:35Z gendl: but if I conditionally comment it out with e.g. #+(and ccl windows-target) 2017-07-28T20:56:51Z gendl: the reader still choked on the unknown dispatch character #?. 2017-07-28T20:58:17Z MrSleepy joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:58:27Z gendl: So something like #+(and ccl windows-target) (#_SleepEx millis #$true) -- it chokes -- 2017-07-28T20:58:39Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T20:58:41Z gendl: is there any simple/obvious workaround for this I'm missing? 2017-07-28T20:58:54Z Shinmera: You could add stubs for the macro characters if they don't exist yet 2017-07-28T20:59:55Z gendl: I tried that with (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\? #'(lambda(stream subchar arg) arg)) 2017-07-28T21:00:23Z gendl: compiling still gives "read-error: No dispatch function defined for #\$..." 2017-07-28T21:00:40Z gendl: Do I have to do some trick with the readtable? 2017-07-28T21:00:42Z Shinmera: Well that's $ not ? in that error there 2017-07-28T21:02:42Z Shinmera: So define a stub for $ as well 2017-07-28T21:02:42Z gendl: oof. 2017-07-28T21:03:26Z gendl: Ok, did a stub as 2017-07-28T21:03:37Z gendl: (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\$ #'(lambda(stream subchar arg) :foo)) 2017-07-28T21:04:01Z gendl: now giving an error when reading #$WAIT__IO_COMPLETION - 2017-07-28T21:04:16Z gendl: "read-error: No dispatch function defined for #\I." 2017-07-28T21:04:34Z gendl: doing (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\I #'(lambda(stream subchar arg) arg)) doesn't fix it. 2017-07-28T21:05:37Z gendl: anyway thanks for the help so far... have to run... will tackle more later. 2017-07-28T21:05:45Z Shinmera: How about instead (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\$ (lambda (s c a) (read s t nil t)) 2017-07-28T21:05:58Z Shinmera: As in, just calling regular read to consume the token. 2017-07-28T21:06:53Z gendl: same - No dispatch function defined for #\I 2017-07-28T21:07:12Z gendl: It's having trouble with that double underscore __I 2017-07-28T21:07:17Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:07:20Z gendl: with the double underscore before the I 2017-07-28T21:07:28Z Shinmera: Rather odd. 2017-07-28T21:12:05Z _death: the reader shouldn't choke if you have that feature expression evaluating to false 2017-07-28T21:12:07Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T21:13:13Z MrSleepy: For the default install of quicklisp in clisp am I supposed to upgrade asdf after install? I get the following errors sometimes: https://pastebin.com/kbX4m087 2017-07-28T21:13:36Z big_num quit (Quit: Bye.) 2017-07-28T21:14:15Z MrSleepy: I tried upgrading asdf manually which seemed like it partially works but I am not sure if it's a bad idea to tinker around with something quicklisp relies on. 2017-07-28T21:14:16Z MrSleepy: also quicklisp works fine for some stuff like pcre in the pastebin 2017-07-28T21:14:19Z Shinmera: You should not use clisp unless you have good reason to, and if so, upgrade ASDF 2017-07-28T21:14:47Z MrSleepy: Shinmera, why not clisp? 2017-07-28T21:15:18Z MrSleepy: not that I have any reason for it I started using it because it was basically the first one I saw in a book that was in the archlinux repo 2017-07-28T21:15:19Z Shinmera: Because there hasn't been a release in forever, it's not maintained much, lots of libraries do not cater to its oddities, it's slow, etc. 2017-07-28T21:15:30Z MrSleepy: Shinmera, that makes sense 2017-07-28T21:15:48Z Shinmera: If you're on Arch, SBCL is going to be a safe bet. 2017-07-28T21:16:18Z MrSleepy: Shinmera, I was gonna ask if you would recommend that one because I have it installed too haha 2017-07-28T21:18:49Z MrSleepy: That's kind of a bummer though with clisp, the cmd line intfc for it is nice out of the box for those of us who are fairly new to emacs. :[ 2017-07-28T21:19:26Z Shinmera: You can use rlwrap with other implementations. 2017-07-28T21:19:33Z _death: looks like you need to build clisp yourself if you want to use mcclim with it 2017-07-28T21:19:50Z Shinmera: Oh yeah threads are disabled by default or something? 2017-07-28T21:20:08Z _death: INSTALL says --with-module=clx/mit-clx 2017-07-28T21:20:16Z Shinmera: Oh, that. 2017-07-28T21:20:44Z MrSleepy: I just found that there is a readline wrapper for sbcl so that should probably settle most of my gripes actually 2017-07-28T21:21:08Z _death: not using slime? 2017-07-28T21:21:12Z MrSleepy: not sure if wrapper is the appropriate word actually 2017-07-28T21:21:38Z MrSleepy: _death, I still haven't learned the ins and outs of emacs because until I started fooling with lisp I used vim and command line for most stuff 2017-07-28T21:21:48Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T21:23:12Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T21:23:24Z reinuseslisp joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:23:39Z _death: MrSleepy: ok.. I started learning CL and Emacs together.. it felt a bit overwhelmed at first but got it pretty quickly 2017-07-28T21:23:50Z Shinmera: Same 2017-07-28T21:23:52Z _death: *I 2017-07-28T21:24:56Z MrSleepy: _death, I recently setup a small quickreference for emacs that should help give me some training wheels while I pick it up. :] 2017-07-28T21:25:10Z MrSleepy: I worked through the book land of lisp just using clisp lol 2017-07-28T21:27:21Z _death: I used clisp a lot in the beginning too.. at least when I had to use Windows 2017-07-28T21:27:51Z _death: but that was a decade ago :) 2017-07-28T21:28:12Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:28:49Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T21:33:35Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:35:38Z MrSleepy: so I think I got quicklisp working in sbcl 2017-07-28T21:36:02Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:36:07Z MrSleepy: that readline thing requires cffi so I will try and install it and get it setup with quicklisp :D 2017-07-28T21:36:42Z _death: it's just a quickload away 2017-07-28T21:40:07Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T21:45:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:46:07Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:46:33Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:46:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:47:58Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-28T21:49:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T21:49:26Z gendl: _death: do you mean have the #\$ evaluating to false? 2017-07-28T21:50:36Z _death: gendl: I mean #+(and ccl windows-target) evaluating to false 2017-07-28T21:50:53Z gendl: Well, indeed it evaluates to false. 2017-07-28T21:51:02Z gendl: but it does still choke. 2017-07-28T21:51:07Z gendl: This is in Allegro 2017-07-28T21:51:40Z gendl: in theory the reader should completely skip over everything in the form after the #+(and ccl windows-target) right? 2017-07-28T21:51:55Z gendl: But, it still has to go through and read somehow, to find the closing ')' 2017-07-28T21:52:10Z gendl: so apparently while doing that it gets confused with those undefined reader macros. 2017-07-28T21:52:17Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T21:52:54Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-28T21:53:42Z gendl: Well, I got it working finally, but hopefully this won't have unintended consequences 2017-07-28T21:53:55Z _death: well, offhand I suspect it could be an acl bug, but I'd need to re-read my clhs to be sure 2017-07-28T21:54:05Z gendl: I added(set-dispatch-macro-character #\_ #\I #'(lambda(s subchar arg) nil)) 2017-07-28T21:54:06Z gendl: and 2017-07-28T21:54:21Z gendl: (set-dispatch-macro-character #\_ #\C #'(lambda(s subchar arg) nil)) 2017-07-28T21:55:03Z gendl: that takes care of spurious errors when reading #$WAIT_TO_IO_COMPLETION 2017-07-28T21:55:43Z gendl: Hmm I think I might have just wasted everyone's time here -- might have accidentally clobbered the underscore 2017-07-28T21:55:48Z gendl: restarting ACL... 2017-07-28T21:56:50Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T21:56:52Z gendl: Indeed. So sorry. 2017-07-28T21:57:20Z gendl: Everything I wrote after when Shinmera suggested making the stubs for #_ and #$ was bogus. 2017-07-28T21:57:57Z gendl: At first I didn't know what I was doing with the set-dispatch character and clobbered _ itself rather than #_ 2017-07-28T21:58:39Z gendl: so now after restart, just stubbing out the #_ and #$ works as expected and lets it compile/load happily. 2017-07-28T21:58:59Z gendl: One more question -- just to avoid the possibility of unintended side-effects by setting these dispatch characters, 2017-07-28T21:59:12Z gendl: is there a way I can do this so it's totally local to this one little form? 2017-07-28T21:59:32Z gendl: Something like (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*))) ... ) 2017-07-28T21:59:43Z gendl: so we are isolating the readtable changes to just this little location? 2017-07-28T22:00:19Z _death: if there's a continue restart you could try invoking it in a handler-bind instead 2017-07-28T22:00:19Z skeuomorf joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:01:24Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:02:24Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:08:19Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:08:28Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:08:44Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:11:17Z gendl: Well i'm just setting the macro characters inside (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) 2017-07-28T22:11:40Z gendl: then unsetting them at the end. 2017-07-28T22:12:11Z gendl: To unset them I use e.g. (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\_ nil) -- is that correct? 2017-07-28T22:12:28Z gendl: by default these things are nil if they don't have a function, right? 2017-07-28T22:14:17Z _death: what's wrong with binding *readtable*? 2017-07-28T22:14:32Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:14:55Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:18:51Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T22:20:46Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:28:19Z reinuseslisp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:29:07Z MrSleepy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-28T22:29:21Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-28T22:33:12Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:33:35Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:36:20Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:39:16Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:40:54Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:45:19Z jsjolen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:45:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:50:10Z reinuseslisp joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:50:26Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-28T22:50:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T22:54:36Z serviteur joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:54:41Z serviteur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T22:54:52Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-07-28T22:56:46Z reinuseslisp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-28T22:59:21Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-28T23:04:39Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-28T23:07:45Z ryanwatkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T23:08:07Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-28T23:10:39Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-28T23:18:56Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T23:31:54Z figasnight joined #lisp 2017-07-28T23:33:30Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-28T23:35:40Z figasnight quit (Quit: figasnight) 2017-07-28T23:37:19Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T23:56:55Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:01:19Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:02:30Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:06:07Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:10:45Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:13:17Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:13:36Z learning_ left #lisp 2017-07-29T00:18:49Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:19:09Z WhiskyRyan quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T00:26:49Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T00:31:13Z mason joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:35:40Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-29T00:35:58Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T00:37:35Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:37:48Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T00:38:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:40:22Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:42:06Z eelster joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:44:45Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T00:45:28Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:46:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-29T00:51:07Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:57:32Z clintm quit 2017-07-29T01:12:14Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-29T01:16:21Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T01:16:30Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-29T01:24:18Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-29T01:33:30Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T01:35:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T01:40:35Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T01:47:21Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-29T01:51:52Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:03:24Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:04:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:08:04Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:09:02Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:15:51Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:26:50Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:27:35Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-29T02:27:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:28:39Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:29:13Z skeuomorf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T02:30:42Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-29T02:30:56Z PuercoPop: gendl: From what I was reading it seems you are running into the same issue I encountered in JSCL. Even when a feature expression evaluates to nil the implementation (and CCL does) can continue to read teh macro afterwards. You need to define a reader macro that consumes the characters, doesn't matter what it returns. It could even return an error to warn users 2017-07-29T02:31:00Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl/pull/195 2017-07-29T02:31:11Z dec0n quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-29T02:31:37Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:31:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:32:20Z Bike: #+ and #- read the next form so that they know where it ends. 2017-07-29T02:38:44Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:39:45Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-29T02:46:46Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:48:06Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:49:09Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-29T02:51:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-29T02:52:25Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T03:03:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T03:10:06Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2017-07-29T03:28:28Z scottj left #lisp 2017-07-29T03:37:13Z PuercoPop: Just found a bug I introduced in StumpWM. Is there an idiom for when one wants to merge declarations extracted with alexandria:parse-body with other declarations in the same functions? 2017-07-29T03:38:09Z Bike: merge? you can just include both, no? 2017-07-29T03:39:03Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T03:40:46Z PuercoPop: yeah, I'd figure I extract the declation-specifiers in the case that the declare from parse-body is not nil. But was wondering if there isn't a idiom like ,@(when ...) that I was unaware of 2017-07-29T03:42:17Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-29T03:42:45Z PuercoPop: Guess ,@(cdar declarations) does the trick 2017-07-29T03:44:54Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T03:47:29Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-29T03:47:39Z BW^-: what's an algorithm for tracking the root in a graph, that's faster than Union Find? 2017-07-29T03:48:44Z BW^-: sometimes, i may re-root totally so while the unionfind tree has been configured for the previous root to be the top, now a totally other one will be the top. 2017-07-29T03:48:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-29T03:49:10Z BW^-: also, ideally, i'd like veeery cheap joins and merges while also having query-what's-the-root operations super cheap. is there any algo for that? 2017-07-29T03:49:18Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T03:50:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-29T03:50:32Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T03:51:24Z learning_: has anyone read The Little Lisper? 2017-07-29T03:54:01Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T03:54:47Z BW^-: learning_: probably. 2017-07-29T03:54:53Z BW^-: learning_: what's your objective? 2017-07-29T03:55:51Z learning_: discussion 2017-07-29T03:56:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T03:57:43Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-29T03:59:02Z BW^-: ok 2017-07-29T03:59:46Z BW^-: learning_: ok, my five cents in PM. that's all from me lol. 2017-07-29T04:00:33Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-29T04:01:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T04:03:49Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2017-07-29T04:04:24Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-29T04:06:51Z gingerale- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T04:20:52Z stylewarning is waiting for The Little CRISPR. 2017-07-29T04:26:07Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T04:35:04Z BW^-: How do I do tree edge deletion cheap? (with respect to tracking its root/unionfind) 2017-07-29T04:35:06Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-) 2017-07-29T04:35:08Z BW^-: in graph theory 2017-07-29T04:36:23Z learning_ quit 2017-07-29T04:39:07Z phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 2017-07-29T04:41:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T04:51:24Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T04:53:39Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-29T04:55:49Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-29T04:57:30Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T04:59:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-29T05:01:12Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:12:45Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T05:13:24Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:17:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T05:20:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:25:10Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:25:37Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T05:25:56Z clintm quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-29T05:26:15Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:28:36Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:29:29Z clintm quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T05:38:55Z BW^-: beach: morning!! 2017-07-29T05:38:59Z BW^-: beach: i have an algo question for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2017-07-29T05:39:01Z BW^-: beach: do you have a sec? 2017-07-29T05:39:12Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-29T05:39:17Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:39:17Z BW^-: beach: wonderful, thank you so much - 2017-07-29T05:39:40Z BW^-: beach: so, i have a set - basically a set of nodes (linked together by edges). 2017-07-29T05:39:43Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T05:40:06Z BW^-: beach: with each component(group) of nodes, i like to maintain a unique identity, okay - that can easily be done by union-find on a btree for instance - SUCH 2017-07-29T05:41:05Z beach: Union-find does not work on a B-tree. It uses its own tree structure. 2017-07-29T05:41:17Z BW^-: beach: i want to do that tracking of node components, SUCH that 1) merging two components (/the tree describing its sets of nodes/), 2) splitting two components (/into two trees/), 3) making a query for its Special nodes is cheap, and maybe also querying for its size, is cheap 2017-07-29T05:41:18Z beach: What is a "component" here? 2017-07-29T05:41:36Z BW^-: beach: a component is just a forest. (is this what you call a forest, not sure) 2017-07-29T05:41:46Z BW^-: beach: a component as in a connected component in graph science 2017-07-29T05:41:53Z beach: OK. 2017-07-29T05:41:59Z BW^-: beach: so now, the problem with union-find, right, 2017-07-29T05:42:23Z BW^-: beach: is that when i merge, then to make the "what's the root question" (i.e. "give me the unique identifier for the whole connected component that this node X belongs to"), 2017-07-29T05:42:32Z impulse- joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:42:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T05:42:48Z BW^-: beach: to make that fast, i want to COMPRESS the paths, meaning that eventually all the nodes will refer to the root nodes - or maybe there'd be two-five to offer some spread - 2017-07-29T05:42:57Z BW^-: beach: such a compressed path would be a total UltraPain, 2017-07-29T05:43:09Z BW^-: beach: to have, as soon as you want to split the forest into two forest :( 2017-07-29T05:43:36Z BW^-: beach: because you'd need to figure out which is the smaller forest and then uproot each node's connection to the root which is in the other component.. 2017-07-29T05:43:38Z BW^-: beach: very expensive 2017-07-29T05:44:21Z BW^-: beach: what's the other algorithm options here? 2017-07-29T05:45:02Z beach: Well, for one thing, union-find does not support splitting. 2017-07-29T05:45:03Z BW^-: beach: the point here is this - when I delete an edge in the graph, I want to make a retrieval within the subgraph of all of its "special nodes", which make up maybe 0.5% or so of the total node set, 2017-07-29T05:45:11Z BW^-: beach: as to make a lovely data processing excercise on them 2017-07-29T05:45:26Z BW^-: beach: ah right, so, what's the name of the algorithm which is unionfindsplit? :) 2017-07-29T05:45:30Z BW^-: splittable unionfind :) 2017-07-29T05:45:52Z scymtym quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-29T05:46:05Z beach: Union-find supports two operations: "union" and "find". Hence the name. 2017-07-29T05:46:41Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:47:28Z beach: It is discussed in the literature because you can implement those operations very efficiently. If you add an arbitrary additional operation, it is not at all obvious that an efficient data structure exists for the new set of operations. 2017-07-29T05:49:31Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:49:45Z beach: So, if you can describe again what it is that you want to do, without referring to union-find, nor to trees, that would be good. 2017-07-29T05:50:11Z beach: You have a graph, that might consist of several disconnected components. 2017-07-29T05:50:26Z beach: Then what? 2017-07-29T05:50:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:51:02Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:52:04Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:53:47Z beach: BW^-: Hello? 2017-07-29T05:53:55Z BW^-: beach: sooo 2017-07-29T05:54:06Z BW^-: beach: "union" as in join together right, and "find" as in find root 2017-07-29T05:54:08Z BW^-: sec 2017-07-29T05:54:31Z BW^-: beach: right exactly, a new operation means you need to work the problem all from the beginning 2017-07-29T05:54:38Z BW^-: beach: ok!! 2017-07-29T05:54:39Z BW^-: beach: yes. 2017-07-29T05:54:39Z beach: "union" is a set operation. It has nothing to do with trees or graphs. 2017-07-29T05:54:40Z BW^-: beach: so 2017-07-29T05:55:22Z beach: "find" means, given an element of a set, find a unique identifier of the set to which an element belongs. 2017-07-29T05:55:30Z beach: Nothing to do with trees or graphs. 2017-07-29T05:55:37Z BW^-: beach: I have a set of nodes in a connected component, say these are nodes N0 to NN. 2017-07-29T05:56:27Z beach: OK. 2017-07-29T05:56:36Z impulse- quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-29T05:56:51Z BW^-: beach: what i want to do is, to have some kind of annotating structure on my nodes, so that if I delete the edge between NX to NY which causes a rupture into the two new connected components N0-Nx and NY-NN, 2017-07-29T05:56:59Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T05:57:07Z BW^-: beach: then i want that structure to give me some kind of unique identifier for the connected components. 2017-07-29T05:57:17Z BW^-: beach: i do the connected component tracking separately already, so i'll look at that myself 2017-07-29T05:58:09Z beach: That sounds very non-obvious to do. 2017-07-29T05:58:31Z BW^-: beach: wait, the union-find variant that does not offer splitting the forest, is COMPRESSED union find right 2017-07-29T05:58:39Z BW^-: beach: if i run it totally uncompressed, then actually splitting is easy. 2017-07-29T06:00:05Z beach: If you delete an edge between two nodes, say Na and Nb, there could be a very long path, traversing many other nodes in the graph from Na and Nb, so it is not at all clear that deleting that edge will split the component. 2017-07-29T06:01:11Z beach: For example, if your connected component is a huge cycle, then deleting an edge does not split the component. 2017-07-29T06:01:35Z BW^-: beach: could I tell you one thing in PM? 2017-07-29T06:01:37Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-07-29T06:01:48Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-29T06:01:54Z BW^-: cool thx 2017-07-29T06:05:50Z BW^-: beach: so, i have an updated problem definition 2017-07-29T06:06:01Z BW^-: beach: so, i have a FOREST. a forest is a graph with no cycles. 2017-07-29T06:06:11Z beach: No it isn't 2017-07-29T06:06:12Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T06:06:13Z BW^-: beach: so it's just that, you have a ton of nodes interconnected by edges. 2017-07-29T06:06:14Z BW^-: it's not? 2017-07-29T06:06:24Z beach: A forest is a collection of trees. 2017-07-29T06:06:38Z beach: Well, technically you are right. 2017-07-29T06:07:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T06:07:03Z beach: But in addition, a forest typically has several trees, disconnected from each other. 2017-07-29T06:07:15Z beach: So you can't "split a forest into two" 2017-07-29T06:07:30Z beach: You can split one of the trees in the forest, but you still have a forest. 2017-07-29T06:07:43Z beach: The new forest has one additional tree then. 2017-07-29T06:08:04Z phoe_: a tree is a graph that's acyclic and connected 2017-07-29T06:08:16Z BW^-: beach: exactly - yes sure 2017-07-29T06:08:24Z phoe_: a collection of trees is a forest, just like beach said 2017-07-29T06:08:33Z beach: Second, a forest has no roots. In fact, an undirected graph has no roots. 2017-07-29T06:08:47Z BW^-: phoe_: a "tree" has the limits that it's ONLY hierarchical 2017-07-29T06:09:07Z BW^-: beach: so just like a tree on the soil: it starts with a single root, that single root has branches, each branch has leaves 2017-07-29T06:09:07Z beach: BW^-: A tree is not hierarchical. 2017-07-29T06:09:23Z BW^-: really? all the examples i saw looked hierchical as i described 2017-07-29T06:09:34Z beach: BW^-: You are talking about undirected graphs. 2017-07-29T06:09:48Z beach: Such graphs do not have the concept of a root or a direction. 2017-07-29T06:09:52Z BW^-: beach: if so what is the difference between a tree and a forest in graph science? what i understood was basically that a "forest" is a bunch of "trees" glued together in any structure as long as it's acyclical 2017-07-29T06:09:54Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-29T06:10:02Z phoe_: glued? no! 2017-07-29T06:10:05Z BW^-: =)) 2017-07-29T06:10:18Z phoe_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_(graph_theory) 2017-07-29T06:10:24Z phoe_: a tree is an acyclical connected graph 2017-07-29T06:10:39Z phoe_: a forest is an acyclical graph that does not need to be connected 2017-07-29T06:10:44Z beach: A forest is a set of trees. 2017-07-29T06:10:56Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T06:11:08Z phoe_: if you split a forest into its connected parts, you get individual trees 2017-07-29T06:11:18Z BW^-: beach: but how do you distinguish a tree from a forest based on its anatomy/geometrical shape? 2017-07-29T06:11:31Z phoe_: BW^-: lack of connection between nodes 2017-07-29T06:11:36Z BW^-: beach: yes you are right that i am talking about undirected graphs. but an undirected, ACYCLICAL graph is the same as a tree in graph science, no? 2017-07-29T06:11:40Z BW^-: OH 2017-07-29T06:11:41Z BW^-: looooool 2017-07-29T06:11:42Z BW^-: ok sorry 2017-07-29T06:11:44Z BW^-: dear. 2017-07-29T06:11:46Z BW^-: sorry. 2017-07-29T06:11:47Z phoe_: A-B-C-D-E that's a tree 2017-07-29T06:11:52Z beach: BW^-: In a tree, there is always a path from each node of the tree to each other node of the tree. 2017-07-29T06:11:53Z phoe_: A-B C-D-E that's a forest 2017-07-29T06:11:57Z BW^-: gotcha. 2017-07-29T06:11:58Z BW^-: ok 2017-07-29T06:12:00Z phoe_: no path from C to A 2017-07-29T06:12:04Z beach: I can't do this. 2017-07-29T06:12:05Z phoe_: where in a tree there is a path 2017-07-29T06:12:06Z beach: Sorry. 2017-07-29T06:12:14Z BW^-: beach: am i too unclear? sorry =(((( 2017-07-29T06:12:25Z beach: It is too confusing to have a discussion with two people. 2017-07-29T06:12:31Z BW^-: i've been working on this problem for 2.5 weeks, i think i'm heading to a breaking point 2017-07-29T06:12:32Z phoe_: Oops. Sorry. 2017-07-29T06:12:35Z BW^-: beach: i will talk only to you. 2017-07-29T06:12:46Z beach: BW^-: A tree is connected. 2017-07-29T06:12:49Z BW^-: phoe_: i may talk to you later. i started talking to Beach first days ago. i'll lead a coherent conversation with him now. 2017-07-29T06:13:01Z BW^-: beach: noted. thanks for clarifying. soo - a tree may not have any cycles, right? 2017-07-29T06:13:01Z beach: Connected means that there is a path from each node to each other node. 2017-07-29T06:13:09Z BW^-: beach: so an undirected acyclical graph, is a tree. correct? 2017-07-29T06:13:17Z BW^-: beach: definition of connected - yes noted. 2017-07-29T06:13:19Z beach: Correct, the definition of tree means no cycles. 2017-07-29T06:13:49Z BW^-: wonderful. 2017-07-29T06:13:51Z beach: Yes, an undirected acyclic graph is a tree. 2017-07-29T06:14:06Z beach: A forest may have several trees in it, mutually disconnected. 2017-07-29T06:14:09Z BW^-: beach: so i will clarify my question now. sorry for my previous unclarity about the question, and about the terminology. i hope i fixed them now. 2017-07-29T06:14:17Z BW^-: yes understood. 2017-07-29T06:14:25Z beach: So in a forest, it may be the case that, given two nodes, there is no path between tehm. 2017-07-29T06:14:27Z beach: them 2017-07-29T06:14:41Z BW^-: beach: so - i want to understand how I do "naming" (aka maintaining an identity, the cheapest way) when I split one tree into two. 2017-07-29T06:15:12Z BW^-: beach: hence a "connected component" in an undirected graph, as long as it's acyclical, means a tree 2017-07-29T06:16:32Z beach: So, if I understand you correctly, you want to maintain a set of the individual trees in a forest, and you want to update that set when you add or remove an edge? 2017-07-29T06:25:34Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T06:27:04Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T06:28:50Z BW^-: beach: well, the trees are computationally separate already - indeed i'm maintaining a forest but i think we may not need to give any consideration to that, except for with respect to when we split a tree into two trees (at which point we obviously got a forest). 2017-07-29T06:28:58Z BW^-: beach: my question is this: 2017-07-29T06:29:27Z BW^-: beach: "I have a tree, and somehow i maintain a unique identifier (a "name" in graph science terminology I think) for this tree. ....... 2017-07-29T06:32:35Z beach: And? 2017-07-29T06:33:37Z White_Flame: say you split that tree into all 1-node trees. Which one retains that unique tree identifier? 2017-07-29T06:34:14Z White_Flame: gets quickly into "This is my grandfather's axe. Replaced the head 5 times and the handle twice" territory 2017-07-29T06:36:48Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T06:37:45Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-29T06:39:53Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-29T06:50:34Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-29T06:51:20Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-29T06:55:10Z BW^-: beach: (sorry everyting happening here, i'll be back in 609 2017-07-29T06:55:12Z BW^-: 60) 2017-07-29T06:56:01Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T06:59:07Z d4ryus2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-29T07:00:31Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:03:51Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-29T07:09:19Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T07:09:55Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T07:11:01Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:12:52Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:16:20Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:19:33Z hexfive quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T07:20:01Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:22:37Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T07:27:03Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:27:26Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:30:34Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:33:17Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:33:26Z damke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T07:34:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:36:17Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T07:37:33Z BW^-: beach: sooooooo i'm back 2017-07-29T07:37:37Z BW^-: beach: sorry for the disruption 2017-07-29T07:37:39Z BW^-: beach: sooo - 2017-07-29T07:38:07Z BW^-: beach: "I have a tree, and i somehow maintain a unique name for it. 2017-07-29T07:38:32Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:38:33Z BW^-: beach: now, i will split an edge in it, and because it's a tree, right, this means that TWO trees will come out of the split (each having >= 1 nodes)." 2017-07-29T07:40:05Z BW^-: beach: what i want at this point now then, is to produce some kind of unique name for the structure quick, and also i'd like to index it somehow, if possible.. 2017-07-29T07:42:18Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T07:43:46Z beach: That's what I meant by "maintaining a set of trees". And the "somehow" becomes important, because the exact operations on that set will determine whether there is an efficient data structure for it. 2017-07-29T07:43:47Z beach: Unfortunately, there is no efficient data structure for arbitrary sets, and this is why there are lots of data structures for a reduced collection of operations, such as insert/delete, union/find, etc. 2017-07-29T07:45:04Z beach: I mean, if all you want is a unique name, then keep a counter that is incremented whenever you split a tree. 2017-07-29T07:45:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-29T07:52:00Z z3t0: night 2017-07-29T07:53:48Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-29T07:54:24Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:02:12Z easye2 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:02:22Z easye2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T08:04:17Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T08:05:11Z easye` joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:05:16Z easye` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T08:07:19Z BW^-: beach: right. i guess by "somehow" i just mean: feel free to suggest any structure you think may fit? =) 2017-07-29T08:08:00Z BW^-: beach: yeah sure, i can increase a counter on each node whenever is plit a tree, but that means i need to update all the objects in the split-off tree. which might be a lot of objects. 2017-07-29T08:08:46Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T08:08:52Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:10:17Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:10:21Z beach: I can't suggest a data structure unless you tell me what operations you need. And I never said you had to store the unique number in the nodes. You seem to be saying that one of the operations you need is, given a node, find its unique number. That is the first time you hint of any operations that you need on these unique numbers. 2017-07-29T08:13:19Z easye123 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:13:28Z beach: Look, data structures exist because they implement a set of operations. The set of operations will determine whether there is a data structure that will implement that set of operations efficiently. For example, if you want push/pop/emptyp, then the ideal data structure is a stack, because it gives O(1) for both operations. 2017-07-29T08:14:49Z beach: If you need insert/delete/member, the most efficient data structure is a hash table (provided your domain supports a hashing function). etc, etc, etc. 2017-07-29T08:15:37Z beach: So unless you tell me what operations you need on those unique number, I can't suggest a data structure. 2017-07-29T08:16:03Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T08:16:26Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:16:49Z beach: In fact, you haven't even told me WHY you need a unique number for each tree. For all I know, it is not needed. 2017-07-29T08:17:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:18:09Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T08:20:56Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-29T08:21:15Z easye123 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T08:23:00Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-29T08:23:24Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:27:13Z quietlearner joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:29:03Z quietlearner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T08:30:32Z christopher joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:31:27Z christopher is now known as quietlearner 2017-07-29T08:37:08Z grumble quit (Quit: grumble) 2017-07-29T08:37:29Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:38:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T08:38:49Z quietlearner quit (Quit: kill the wabbit!) 2017-07-29T08:40:33Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:48:44Z BW^-: beach: "given a node, find its unique number" - yes!! i need that! 2017-07-29T08:49:02Z BW^-: (or a unique name or just any unique identifier, a "root node" within that tree would work as identifier too.) 2017-07-29T08:49:02Z defaultxr quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-29T08:49:25Z BW^-: hmmmmmmmmm!!!!!! 2017-07-29T08:49:35Z BW^-: beach: do any hash tables exist that support ultracheap merging and splitting? 2017-07-29T08:50:04Z beach: Not that I am aware of. 2017-07-29T08:50:10Z BW^-: beach: i need it because when an EDGE is added in the forest, i want to look up which TREE the source node and the target node belong to. 2017-07-29T08:50:12Z BW^-: aha 2017-07-29T08:50:22Z BW^-: beach: waht about fairly-cheap merging and splitting, also none? 2017-07-29T08:50:34Z beach: I can't think of any, no. 2017-07-29T08:50:37Z BW^-: aha interesting 2017-07-29T08:50:38Z BW^-: ok 2017-07-29T08:51:28Z pok quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T08:51:48Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:51:58Z beach: There are no roots in an undirected graph. 2017-07-29T08:52:33Z beach: And since you can split a tree in any number of ways, you can't know any representative of the two parts a priori. 2017-07-29T08:53:29Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-29T08:54:43Z beach: I don't see any way of doing this without (at some point) traversing all the nodes in the trees being split off. 2017-07-29T08:54:48Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-29T09:03:11Z jamtho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T09:03:39Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-29T09:06:56Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T09:07:16Z angelo_ is now known as Posterdati^2 2017-07-29T09:08:07Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-29T09:10:00Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T09:14:23Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T09:18:20Z Grue`: what about hash-tree that maps node-name -> tree that starts from that node 2017-07-29T09:18:59Z Grue`: you can easily join two trees by adding a new node with children being those two trees (O(1) operation) 2017-07-29T09:19:25Z Grue`: splitting is removing a node, also O(1) operation 2017-07-29T09:20:09Z Grue`: though you can't remove a node that has a parent 2017-07-29T09:20:40Z beach: Parent? In an undirected graph? 2017-07-29T09:21:09Z Grue`: well, it would be directed in that case because it's represented by conses 2017-07-29T09:23:34Z BW^-: mhm 2017-07-29T09:23:37Z BW^-: aha interesting. 2017-07-29T09:24:38Z BW^-: beach: using an uncompressed union-find tree to track node roots, could be of some use, but answering the question "does V1 and V2 belong to the same root" would take a lot of time then. a loot .. 2017-07-29T09:25:24Z BW^-: hm. 2017-07-29T09:33:30Z pok joined #lisp 2017-07-29T09:33:48Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T09:36:30Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T09:42:44Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T09:43:04Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-29T09:48:55Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T09:51:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T09:56:55Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:06:04Z jamtho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T10:09:42Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T10:10:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:13:27Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T10:14:00Z BW^-: beach: what methods are out there to estimate the size of the two new trees that come from cutting an edge in a tree? 2017-07-29T10:14:35Z jeremiah__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T10:17:55Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:19:25Z jeremiah__ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:26:21Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:29:22Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:36:14Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:38:48Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T10:48:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:48:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-29T10:48:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-29T10:53:30Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T11:00:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-29T11:03:07Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-29T11:05:25Z oleo: morning 2017-07-29T11:09:18Z BW^-: in an undirected graph, is there any good algorithm for estimating the size of the two new trees that come from cutting an edge in a tree? 2017-07-29T11:12:43Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-29T11:13:52Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T11:32:44Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-29T11:38:26Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-29T11:44:31Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T11:58:14Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-29T12:03:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-29T12:08:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-29T12:08:41Z beach` joined #lisp 2017-07-29T12:12:51Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T12:16:33Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-29T12:23:03Z Murii quit (Quit: Time to go!) 2017-07-29T12:35:32Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T12:41:27Z Posterdati^2: hi 2017-07-29T12:42:20Z Posterdati^2: please I need a library to plot data on png file, I'm using vgplot, but there's no way to not open the plot window and print on png file only 2017-07-29T12:42:24Z Posterdati^2: thanks 2017-07-29T12:43:54Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-29T12:45:18Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T12:45:22Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T12:46:11Z Bike: cl-dot? 2017-07-29T12:47:16Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-29T12:48:42Z Posterdati^2: wow 2017-07-29T12:48:47Z Posterdati^2: what is it? 2017-07-29T12:48:49Z Posterdati^2: let me see 2017-07-29T12:49:41Z Posterdati^2: thanks 2017-07-29T12:51:49Z Posterdati^2: Bike, nice, but I'm plotting scientific data from measures, not graphs for uml... 2017-07-29T12:55:35Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-29T12:59:30Z beach` is now known as beach 2017-07-29T13:02:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:03:31Z Bike: oh, sorry. 2017-07-29T13:04:41Z Bike: i think when i had to do that i just executed gnuplot with run-program or whatnot 2017-07-29T13:05:10Z Bike: there's also https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-gnuplot which has an example of png output 2017-07-29T13:05:13Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-29T13:07:04Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-29T13:11:02Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:25:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:25:13Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T13:25:52Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:26:44Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:27:40Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:28:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:32:29Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-29T13:36:46Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-29T13:45:58Z davsebamse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T13:49:59Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:17:33Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-29T14:18:47Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T14:19:14Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:23:49Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:28:56Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T14:29:21Z krasnal_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:33:28Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:37:21Z bjorksung joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:38:08Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:38:57Z BW^-: the graph science problem of maintaining a unique identifier of trees within a forest, what is that scientifical problem called? 2017-07-29T14:39:26Z BW^-: i'm tempted to just use union find but i guess it might be uuultra slow too. 2017-07-29T14:40:41Z BW^-: i want to keep splicing off trees, as a cheap operation too. hence i don't want UnionFind, but UnionSpliceFind. 2017-07-29T14:40:48Z BW^-: what are those algorithms called? 2017-07-29T14:41:05Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-29T14:43:47Z BW^-: what's the scientifical name for UnionSpliceFind :) 2017-07-29T14:52:03Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:52:54Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:53:05Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T14:53:49Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-29T14:54:04Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:54:04Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2017-07-29T14:54:04Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:54:10Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-07-29T14:56:55Z josemanuel: BW^-: You meab partition refinement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_refinement)? 2017-07-29T14:58:24Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:01:21Z BW^-: josemanuel: ahaaaaaaaa okay hmm 2017-07-29T15:04:13Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:05:43Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:08:45Z BW^-: josemanuel: can you point me to any implementation of a partition refinement algorithm? 2017-07-29T15:11:58Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T15:12:18Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:13:36Z BW^-: josemanuel: ? 2017-07-29T15:14:46Z jackdaniel: for those interested in McCLIM progres I've published the progress report here: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/posts/Progress-report-9.html 2017-07-29T15:16:23Z BW^-: josemanuel: what about "graph cut"? 2017-07-29T15:17:53Z g0d355__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:19:39Z clintm quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-29T15:20:01Z clintm joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:20:34Z BW^-: so to sum up, the operations i want to make fast are: 2017-07-29T15:20:37Z BW^-: 1) To join two trees fast. 2017-07-29T15:20:42Z BW^-: 2) To check if two nodes belong to the same tree fast (e.g. by looking up the unique identifier/root of a tree fast) 2017-07-29T15:20:42Z BW^-: 3) To split a tree into two trees fast. 2017-07-29T15:22:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:22:59Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:23:39Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:24:18Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:24:39Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:25:10Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:25:30Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:27:08Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:29:08Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:29:56Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:30:16Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:33:15Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:33:44Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:34:07Z dan joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:34:08Z abel-abel quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T15:37:18Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:38:06Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:39:35Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:40:37Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:41:44Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:43:52Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:45:47Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:46:34Z impulse quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T15:46:50Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:48:22Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-29T15:50:54Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T15:51:33Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:52:15Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:52:48Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:54:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-29T15:57:32Z malice joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:01:47Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T16:02:25Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:03:12Z phoe_: jackdaniel: great! Thanks. 2017-07-29T16:03:39Z abel-abel quit (Quit: abel-abel) 2017-07-29T16:04:48Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T16:05:01Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:07:04Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T16:07:27Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:07:30Z abel-abel quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T16:07:56Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:08:45Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T16:10:22Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:12:39Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:15:35Z Bicyclidine is now known as Bike 2017-07-29T16:15:44Z phoe_: ...my eyes just went derp on me and instead of (ql:quickload :drakma) I read (ql:quickload :drama) 2017-07-29T16:17:08Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:17:29Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T16:18:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:24:01Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:24:50Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-29T16:24:53Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T16:27:48Z mazoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T16:32:35Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:34:09Z abel-abel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T16:34:45Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:36:14Z abel-abel quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T16:36:34Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:39:37Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T16:41:48Z krasnal_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T16:47:36Z abel-abel quit (Quit: abel-abel) 2017-07-29T17:01:21Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T17:01:27Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-29T17:03:39Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-29T17:03:52Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-29T17:07:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T17:18:10Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T17:18:20Z clintm quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-29T17:25:10Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T17:28:30Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T17:36:28Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T17:38:16Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T17:38:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T17:39:53Z mishoo_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T17:42:17Z maarhart__ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T17:43:18Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T17:43:43Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T17:44:39Z maarhart__ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T17:45:42Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T17:47:04Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T17:53:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-29T18:00:21Z MrTopom joined #lisp 2017-07-29T18:02:20Z MrTopom: Hello. I would like to create a code generator from specification written in a language. I thought LISP like could be good. Does anyone have experience on Ontology or code ganerator in LISP ? 2017-07-29T18:03:07Z beach: What kind of code are we talking about here? Native machine instructions? Common Lisp code? 2017-07-29T18:03:30Z z0d: wow. a book on Lisp in 2017 and it has "LISP" everywhere 2017-07-29T18:03:44Z MrTopom: I want to generate code like C# or Java from my LISP like specification. 2017-07-29T18:04:48Z beach: In what way is it a "specification" rather than "code in a Lisp-like language"? 2017-07-29T18:04:49Z Bike: lisp is a language for specifying programs in that it is a programming language. do you just want to use a lisp-like syntax, i.e. uniform? 2017-07-29T18:05:20Z phoe_: MrTopom: define "specification" 2017-07-29T18:05:24Z MrTopom: I did not choose the language to program the generator so it could be LISP. 2017-07-29T18:05:28Z phoe_: give us some sort of an example input and example output 2017-07-29T18:06:02Z MrTopom: Sample : I want to a make a simple service with data base and some action in the data base. 2017-07-29T18:06:42Z MrTopom: So I would like to define some records, "objects", and then having generation of the services : PHP code and SQL code 2017-07-29T18:07:00Z phoe_: MrTopom: give us some example input and example output. 2017-07-29T18:07:03Z MrTopom: And have some Javascript caling it 2017-07-29T18:07:25Z phoe_: If that hypothetical Lisp program is a black box, then what do you want to pass as input to that black box, and what do you want to come out as output? 2017-07-29T18:08:49Z MrTopom: No I would like to define my services or needs as simple as possible and have some generation for things we always redo. For example, the PHP code for all manipulation of objects and data base actions (insert, update, remove) 2017-07-29T18:09:51Z MrTopom: So I have a "sepcification" of needs, I put in the generator and I get the files (PHP, JS, SQL) 2017-07-29T18:10:06Z phoe_: MrTopom: are you asking for a program that will write your programs for you? 2017-07-29T18:10:29Z phoe_: your input is "specifications", and your output is a working PHP/JS/SQL program? 2017-07-29T18:10:46Z MrTopom: I ask if someone have experience in generator or generation from knowledge reprsentation casue I want to make such generator 2017-07-29T18:10:58Z MrTopom: yes 2017-07-29T18:11:04Z MrTopom: input : Specification 2017-07-29T18:11:12Z MrTopom: output : Files 2017-07-29T18:11:12Z phoe_: So you want a program that is effectively a programmer. 2017-07-29T18:11:17Z MrTopom: yes 2017-07-29T18:11:29Z phoe_: No such programs exist. 2017-07-29T18:11:29Z MrTopom: put some recurrrent knowledge 2017-07-29T18:11:44Z MrTopom: to generate all "basic" things 2017-07-29T18:11:49Z phoe_: There have been experiments of telling AI how to code, but they are still at their early stage. 2017-07-29T18:12:06Z phoe_: "Basic things" - what do you mean by them? 2017-07-29T18:12:28Z phoe_: s/telling/teaching/ 2017-07-29T18:12:31Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T18:12:34Z MrTopom: In PHP to generate code for object DB maping 2017-07-29T18:13:03Z phoe_: You seem to describe an ORM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-relational_mapping 2017-07-29T18:13:43Z phoe_: There are frameworks for that. You pass the specification of classes as input, and the output is working code that automatically maps these objects to their DB representation and handles all the DB stuff for you. 2017-07-29T18:13:47Z MrTopom: Yes. And then keep the most difficultied for human 2017-07-29T18:13:50Z joga: "why not fuzz until you get the output you want" 2017-07-29T18:14:39Z MrTopom: joga: I would prefer have basics things but working :) 2017-07-29T18:14:52Z phoe_: joga: actually, MrTopom has a point there 2017-07-29T18:15:25Z phoe_: ...except ORMs have some cost when it comes to database structure - it often sucks and tends to be much less performant when compared to handcrafted schemas and SQL queries. 2017-07-29T18:16:33Z MrTopom: I don't know what is the limit ad I know there are some framework for some parts. But the try it to be able to add some knowledge for features and then next time when needed, just write "(doFeature myObjects)" 2017-07-29T18:17:05Z joga: I rarely have to meddle with DBs but I actually have one thing in my queue that mostly requires me to actually grasp the specific ORM to implement what I want 2017-07-29T18:17:13Z MrTopom: (generateHTMLForm myFieds) 2017-07-29T18:17:58Z MrTopom: Maybe it is to specific and may be loosing so time but I want to have a try for ages so that's the reason I ask here. 2017-07-29T18:18:04Z phoe_: You want a program to do software development - something that currently can hardly be done by teams of tens or hundreds of people over multiple months or years of time. 2017-07-29T18:18:45Z joga: sounds like a task for a computer 2017-07-29T18:19:04Z phoe_: Computers lack creativity required for software development. 2017-07-29T18:19:09Z phoe_: And no one taught them that yet. 2017-07-29T18:19:18Z phoe_: If it can be taught to them, that is. 2017-07-29T18:19:24Z joga: they can generate cool pictures though so maybe soon... 2017-07-29T18:19:46Z phoe_: but they have no idea how to solve "NIL is not a NUMBER" kind of errors. 2017-07-29T18:19:47Z MrTopom: I have been doing some generator like that for 2 companies generating wrapper around 3D (.NET) and for Java network API. 2017-07-29T18:20:05Z MrTopom: but was just directive things 2017-07-29T18:20:08Z MrTopom: no knowledge 2017-07-29T18:20:11Z phoe_: Wrappers for specific things exist, of course. 2017-07-29T18:20:32Z MrTopom: here I would like something more like a knoledge base 2017-07-29T18:20:45Z MrTopom: and be able to add 2017-07-29T18:21:03Z MrTopom: "How to make a board game like chess ?" 2017-07-29T18:21:22Z MrTopom: there are some shared parts with draughts, hnefatafl, .... 2017-07-29T18:21:28Z phoe_: that's doable, define pieces, define board, define moves, define rules. 2017-07-29T18:21:40Z MrTopom: so there cold be some knowledge shared to make basic parts for such projects 2017-07-29T18:21:43Z phoe_: engines like Zillions of Games have been doing this for years. 2017-07-29T18:21:48Z MrTopom: yes 2017-07-29T18:21:57Z phoe_: except that's a very limited thing - board games, finito. 2017-07-29T18:22:15Z phoe_: and board games have a lot of common things, and the uncommon things can be scripted in some simple language. 2017-07-29T18:22:24Z MrTopom: doing form in HMLT is limited als 2017-07-29T18:22:31Z MrTopom: also 2017-07-29T18:22:51Z MrTopom: there are multiple things limited that human do and redo 2017-07-29T18:23:33Z MrTopom: I though would be fun to try, when those things are needed, in a base and have some code genertaion for it. 2017-07-29T18:25:50Z MrTopom: I have to go . Take Care. 2017-07-29T18:26:01Z phoe_: MrTopom: see you 2017-07-29T18:28:40Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-29T18:28:57Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:29:38Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-29T18:30:35Z MrTopom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:30:47Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:37:22Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T18:42:11Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T18:44:12Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T18:45:42Z c__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T18:46:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:50:37Z andrzejku quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T19:07:15Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T19:08:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T19:12:44Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-29T19:15:59Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-29T19:18:16Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T19:22:28Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T19:33:56Z scymtym quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-29T19:36:33Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-29T19:36:40Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-29T19:43:12Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:05:18Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T20:05:50Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T20:09:35Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:10:14Z phoe_: beach: I have a question about protocols and you might be able to help me. 2017-07-29T20:10:33Z phoe_: I have a protocol for DATE objects, which are basically Unix times. 2017-07-29T20:11:08Z phoe_: I have a function in that protocol, NOW, which is meant to return a DATE that somehow represents the point in time current at the function call. 2017-07-29T20:11:38Z phoe_: It seems natural that (NOW) is a zero-argument function, since it does not seem to need any arguments. 2017-07-29T20:11:50Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T20:12:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T20:13:14Z phoe_: The issue: I have a DATE as a protocol class. If I create a STANDARD-DATE as a concrete class being an implementation of that protocol, what should NOW return, since it needs to return an instance, so an instance of a concrete class? 2017-07-29T20:13:21Z phoe_: Should it be an instance of STANDARD-DATE? 2017-07-29T20:13:50Z phoe_: If I then create another class participating in that protocol, let's say NONSTANDARD-DATE, how can it participate in that protocol if (now) returns instances of STANDARD-DATE? 2017-07-29T20:14:38Z phoe_: Should NOW accept an argument that defines the class whose instance should be returned, and therefore NOW should be NOW-USING-CLASS? 2017-07-29T20:15:29Z phoe_: So (now (find-class 'standard-date)) and (now (find-class 'nonstandard-date)) are obviously separate, but reading this gives me an "uh, what?" sort of feeling? 2017-07-29T20:16:28Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:16:42Z pjb: NOW can take arguments, such as time-line or present. 2017-07-29T20:16:47Z pjb: NOW is not the same now and then. 2017-07-29T20:17:28Z pjb: So (NOW now) #| --> 3710348219 |# (NOW yesterday) #| --> 3710261819 |# 2017-07-29T20:17:33Z phoe_: pjb: NOW is defined as, "return an object whose unixtime is = to current moment's unixtime". 2017-07-29T20:17:40Z phoe_: also, your comments are not helping right now :) 2017-07-29T20:17:48Z pjb: (/= (NOW earth) (NOW sun)) ; because of gravity. 2017-07-29T20:18:12Z pjb: (now 'standard-date) (now 'non-standard-date) 2017-07-29T20:18:19Z pjb: the only alternative is to have different functions! 2017-07-29T20:18:27Z pjb: (standard-date-now) (non-standard-date-now) 2017-07-29T20:18:39Z phoe_: different functions mean different protocols, and that's not what I want 2017-07-29T20:19:03Z pjb: So you see, your original assumption that now is a 0-argument function is obviously wrong. 2017-07-29T20:19:14Z Shinmera: Well, that's gonna have to be it for the first day of Ludum Dare. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0850QKCdRk&f 2017-07-29T20:19:35Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:22:07Z tetero: Shinmera: What music is that? 2017-07-29T20:22:26Z Shinmera: Remorse (Carpenter Brut Remix) from the Hotline Miami 2 OST 2017-07-29T20:23:50Z tetero: Ah, I thought it sounded familiar. Looks nice, by the way, good job. 2017-07-29T20:29:54Z jasom joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:31:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T20:34:50Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:36:09Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T20:37:13Z Shinmera: Thanks. I wasn't alone this time. mood and gingerale are with me on the team. 2017-07-29T20:38:17Z mood: I ended up wasting most of the day failing to fix collision mechanics, but hey, I think we have a pretty good point to progress from 2017-07-29T20:39:02Z Shinmera: mood: I'll make sure to look into the book I mentioned tomorrow, maybe it'll tell us something. 2017-07-29T20:40:22Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:46:59Z Grue`: phoe_: seems easy to me. NOW can have an optional (or keyword) argument with the default being 'standard-date 2017-07-29T20:48:24Z stylewarning: Any CFFI wizards in here? Does anyone have any examples of using CFFI-LIBFFI? 2017-07-29T20:51:01Z stylewarning: Or this purportedly supported business of passing structs by value? 2017-07-29T20:53:09Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2017-07-29T20:54:01Z sjl: is there a built-in way to get the last element in a vector, or should I just use something like this http://paste.stevelosh.com/597cf5c7021a0a00080422a0 2017-07-29T20:54:25Z Bike: that is basically how to do it. 2017-07-29T20:54:33Z Shinmera: If that's the semantics you want, sure. 2017-07-29T20:54:45Z sjl: annoying that there's vector-push and vector-pop to use vectors like stacks, but not vector-peek... 2017-07-29T20:56:13Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T20:56:21Z Bike: well, that would basically be it. given how arrays are organized there's no way to do it faster. 2017-07-29T20:58:42Z Bike: vector-pop is probably defined as (prog1 (aref vector (1- (fill-pointer vector))) (decf (fill-pointer vector))) 2017-07-29T20:59:43Z Grue`: sjl: (find-if (constantly t) #(1 2 3) :from-end t) 2017-07-29T20:59:59Z Shinmera: Grue`: hah! 2017-07-29T21:00:01Z sjl: haha 2017-07-29T21:00:27Z Grue`: though it cant distinguish between last element being nil, and zero elements 2017-07-29T21:00:36Z sjl: won't give me the secondary return value though 2017-07-29T21:00:38Z sjl: yeah 2017-07-29T21:00:49Z phoe_: Grue`: add a check on (length vector) 2017-07-29T21:01:04Z Shinmera: In my opinion a peek should error if there's nothing to peek at, but hey. 2017-07-29T21:01:37Z phoe_: Shinmera: you have a point, POPping from an empty list errors, so should peeking at it 2017-07-29T21:01:46Z phoe_: so it could be the same for vectors 2017-07-29T21:01:51Z phoe_: ...what is popping from an empty vector like 2017-07-29T21:02:24Z Grue`: popping from empty list doesn't error though 2017-07-29T21:02:47Z phoe_: wait 2017-07-29T21:03:02Z phoe_: but popping from an empty array errors 2017-07-29T21:03:11Z phoe_: huh 2017-07-29T21:03:48Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T21:05:17Z Bike: clhs essentially defines (pop list) as (let ((l list)) (prog1 (car l) (setf list (cdr l)))) 2017-07-29T21:05:51Z Bike: oh, and it says so explicitly in the notes. 2017-07-29T21:06:59Z pjb: (defun popv (v) (and (plusp (length v)) (aref v (decf (fill-pointer v))))) 2017-07-29T21:07:25Z pjb: You may want to s/length/fill-pointer/ to make it clearer. 2017-07-29T21:09:42Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T21:09:56Z sjl: is that not just vector-pop? 2017-07-29T21:10:06Z pjb: Try it! 2017-07-29T21:10:25Z sjl: Oh, it's a safe vector pop 2017-07-29T21:10:29Z sjl: Which is not what I wanted 2017-07-29T21:10:30Z WhiskyRy_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:10:33Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:10:47Z sjl: I just want to GET the last element in the vector, not pop it 2017-07-29T21:11:06Z pjb: ok. So (defun peekv (v) (and (plusp (length v)) (aref v (1- (fill-pointer v))))) 2017-07-29T21:11:10Z sjl: I'll just use my little function, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something built in 2017-07-29T21:11:34Z phoe_: sjl: search alexandria and serapeum first 2017-07-29T21:11:43Z sjl: And now we're repeating the last ten minutes of the chat 2017-07-29T21:11:44Z phoe_: it's possible they have such an util 2017-07-29T21:11:45Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:11:59Z sjl: with a shorter version that doesn't distinguish no elements/nil last element 2017-07-29T21:12:03Z sjl: phoe_: yeah good idea 2017-07-29T21:12:06Z pjb: for completeness: (defun pushv (e v) (vector-push-extend e v (length v))) 2017-07-29T21:12:25Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T21:12:43Z phoe_: and if there is no such function, file an issue on serapeum and/or try to convince the alexandria board that your function should be included in alexandria 2017-07-29T21:12:47Z sjl: alexandria has last-elt, which errors on empty seqs 2017-07-29T21:13:07Z phoe_: oh, look at its source (I can't do it myself at the moment) 2017-07-29T21:13:21Z phoe_: does it have an inner specialization for vectors? 2017-07-29T21:13:26Z Shinmera: Here's another: (ignore-errors (aref array (1- (length array)))) 2017-07-29T21:13:30Z phoe_: if yes, it might be what you wanr 2017-07-29T21:13:32Z phoe_: Shinmera: ew 2017-07-29T21:13:32Z WhiskyRyan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T21:13:41Z sjl: it just uses `elt` once it knows the seq isn't a list 2017-07-29T21:13:46Z sjl: which throws an error 2017-07-29T21:13:54Z phoe_: I see 2017-07-29T21:15:11Z sjl: don't see anything in serapeum, though I might not have grepped for the appropriate word 2017-07-29T21:15:18Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T21:15:27Z phoe_: just look at its vector functions perhaps 2017-07-29T21:15:29Z phoe_: or sequence ones 2017-07-29T21:15:47Z sjl: yeah I looked in all 3 2017-07-29T21:15:53Z sjl: array/vector/sequences.lisp 2017-07-29T21:16:30Z phoe_: well, implement it and file an issue on it 2017-07-29T21:17:00Z Grue`: it really seems like an overly-specific thing though 2017-07-29T21:17:15Z sjl: not sure how generally useful it would be 2017-07-29T21:17:31Z phoe_: safe-vector-peek? I can find some uses in it mayhaps 2017-07-29T21:17:32Z Grue`: why the end of a vector? i think if you refactor your code there would be no need for such a thing 2017-07-29T21:17:42Z phoe_: oh, wait - last element of a vector 2017-07-29T21:17:44Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:17:47Z Shinmera: He wants to use it as stack 2017-07-29T21:17:57Z Grue`: i'd expect peek to peek at the first element 2017-07-29T21:18:05Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:18:17Z phoe_: Grue`: what if there is no first element/stack is empty? 2017-07-29T21:19:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:19:21Z Grue`: if you use vector as stack just look at its fill-pointer 2017-07-29T21:19:27Z Grue`: pjb is right here 2017-07-29T21:20:08Z sjl: And to distinguish the case of "last element nil" versus "no elements" I need to check the fill-pointer (or length) first 2017-07-29T21:20:12Z sjl: and now we're back at my original paste 2017-07-29T21:20:25Z phoe_: looks like it, yes. 2017-07-29T21:20:30Z Grue`: checking length is very fast 2017-07-29T21:20:36Z andrzejku quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-29T21:20:39Z sjl: Yep 2017-07-29T21:21:12Z phoe_ waits for his debian sid to update after about 8 months of skipping update day 2017-07-29T21:21:23Z sjl: I just wanted to know if there was something equivalent already in CL. There's not. Bikeshed is painted. 2017-07-29T21:21:39Z phoe_: I'd be more helpful if I could reliably run anything other than ssh while it's updating. 2017-07-29T21:22:07Z phoe_: sjl: PR your paste to serapeum though, describe your use case of using it as a stack. 2017-07-29T21:22:12Z Grue` waits for tumblr rss update so that my blog appears on planet lisp. it's been like 4 hours already 2017-07-29T21:23:29Z Grue`: i never heard of serapeum before 2017-07-29T21:23:54Z phoe_: Grue`: it's a library of convenience functions - it has a broader scope than Alexandria 2017-07-29T21:24:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T21:24:12Z phoe_: somewhat like pjb's Cesarum I think 2017-07-29T21:24:27Z Grue`: i can barely remember even what functions alexandria has 2017-07-29T21:27:31Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:28:01Z Bock is now known as Sauvin 2017-07-29T21:28:10Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:28:36Z phoe_: Grue`: then don't look at Serapeum 2017-07-29T21:28:44Z phoe_: it's **huge** compared to Alexandria. 2017-07-29T21:29:41Z sjl: Oh I didn't know it had a positional lambda macro hidden in there too https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/blob/master/op.lisp 2017-07-29T21:29:46Z sjl: might start using it just for that 2017-07-29T21:30:53Z phoe_: sjl: serapeum has this and twenty other nifty tricks. just reading its README.md is good half an hour. 2017-07-29T21:31:15Z sjl: Yeah I remember browsing through it a few months ago 2017-07-29T21:32:15Z WhiskyRy_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T21:38:57Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:48:39Z Bike: a strict multiple-value-bind, neat. kinda doubt that anyone uses it though... 2017-07-29T21:49:05Z phoe_: Bike: strict? as in, it errors unless it receives exactly N multiple values? 2017-07-29T21:50:27Z Bike: yeah. 2017-07-29T21:51:08Z phoe_: sounds like something I'd want 2017-07-29T21:51:23Z Bike: what for? 2017-07-29T21:51:42Z phoe_: making sure that my functions' return arity is correct 2017-07-29T21:52:12Z phoe_: like, 90% of the times I say m-v-b I mean that the form will return *exactly* that number of values 2017-07-29T21:52:32Z Bike: also you don't need this library for that if you just want multiple value bind's syntax. (defmacro strict-mvb ((&rest vars) form &body body) `(multiple-value-call (lambda ,vars ,@body) ,form)) 2017-07-29T21:52:34Z phoe_: and the 10% are for getting the first two values from a three values returning form 2017-07-29T21:53:15Z Bike: the macro in this thing also adds rest variables (scheme style, since it's apparently a scheme invention) 2017-07-29T21:53:34Z phoe_: Bike: I know, I can import individual utils. Geez, there was this lisp-utils thing that automatically collected these little snippets and allowed you to dynamically import only the ones you needed 2017-07-29T21:53:43Z phoe_: never used it 2017-07-29T21:53:54Z Bike: that sounds pretty complicated. 2017-07-29T21:54:03Z phoe_: yes, exactly. 2017-07-29T21:54:24Z Bike: good thing it's a oneliner. 2017-07-29T21:54:49Z sjl: phoe_: quickutil 2017-07-29T21:54:54Z sjl: is the thing you were thinking of 2017-07-29T21:54:57Z phoe_: sjl: exactly! thanks. 2017-07-29T21:55:19Z sjl: So, in bordeaux-threads docs it says that `thread-alive-p` "Returns true if THREAD is alive, that is, if DESTROY-THREAD has not been called on it. 2017-07-29T21:55:25Z whoma1 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T21:55:38Z phoe_: sjl: ...I can see a hole in this reasoning 2017-07-29T21:55:48Z phoe_: a thread can finish - is it alive then? 2017-07-29T21:55:51Z sjl: but when I test locally, it also seems that thread-alive-p returns NIL once the thread has finished executing 2017-07-29T21:56:04Z phoe_: DESTROY-THREAD has not been called on it after all. 2017-07-29T21:56:11Z sjl: is this implementation specific and I shouldn't rely on it, or just a mistake in the docs? 2017-07-29T21:56:29Z phoe_: sjl: file an issue on bordeaux-threads, I would call it a bug in the BT spec. 2017-07-29T21:56:54Z phoe_: to me, it seems obvious that a thread that's finished is no longer alive since it no longer "does anything'. 2017-07-29T21:57:05Z sjl: that would seem reasonable 2017-07-29T21:57:21Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-29T21:57:21Z sjl: but from reading the docs I don't see anythign else that would allow me to check if a thread is finished or not 2017-07-29T21:58:10Z phoe_: that looks like a bigger issue in BT: to check if a thread is "running", if it was "destroyed", or if it "finished" or if it was "aborted" because of an unhandled error. 2017-07-29T21:58:38Z phoe_: and sounds like an improvement to BT, depending on whether the implementation supports such states. 2017-07-29T21:59:32Z sjl: the thing returned by make-thread is just a raw SBCL thread object, so it's not like there's some BT wrapper struct I can rely on querying 2017-07-29T22:00:10Z phoe_: sjl: look what a thread is, in BT nomenclature. 2017-07-29T22:00:30Z phoe_: a BT thread always is the implementation's thread object - there's no wrapper class. 2017-07-29T22:00:47Z sjl: yes 2017-07-29T22:01:08Z phoe_: so, well. my four-state function might not really work here since there's no wrapper it can depend on. 2017-07-29T22:01:33Z phoe_: but, at least, you could do this question if thread-alive-p is supposed to return NIL on threads that finished naturally or by error. 2017-07-29T22:03:21Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-29T22:03:53Z sjl: Yeah, I added an issue asking that 2017-07-29T22:13:15Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-29T22:20:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-29T22:22:20Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-29T22:25:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-29T22:28:05Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-29T22:29:35Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-07-29T22:36:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-29T22:39:04Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-29T22:52:41Z procl0 joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:12:14Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T23:12:49Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:16:32Z eelster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T23:16:34Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T23:16:59Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:17:10Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T23:21:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:25:07Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:25:35Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-29T23:26:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T23:35:24Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:37:50Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T23:40:53Z bugrum joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:44:13Z eelster joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:44:52Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-29T23:51:15Z vicfred joined #lisp 2017-07-29T23:57:19Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:00:20Z Younder joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:00:47Z Younder quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T00:01:15Z Younder joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:02:15Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T00:11:29Z keviv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:12:15Z keviv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T00:12:26Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:12:33Z eelster quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-30T00:15:38Z quotation joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:22:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:27:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-30T00:32:14Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:36:02Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:36:37Z _krator44 is now known as krator44 2017-07-30T00:36:49Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2017-07-30T00:36:49Z krator44 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:36:49Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2017-07-30T00:36:49Z krator44 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:38:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T00:44:46Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:54:07Z jameser_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:56:51Z slark joined #lisp 2017-07-30T00:56:57Z slark: hello 2017-07-30T00:58:06Z slark: in the repl when i type `(,@(+ 1 2)) it is evaluated to 3 but i cant understand why 2017-07-30T00:58:44Z Bike: that's equivalent to (append (+ 1 2)) 2017-07-30T00:58:47Z slark: `(,@3) is evaluated to 3 really ? 2017-07-30T00:59:03Z Bike: (append 3) 2017-07-30T00:59:14Z Bike: clhs ` 2017-07-30T00:59:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 2017-07-30T00:59:29Z slark: Bike: thx 2017-07-30T01:07:32Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T01:10:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T01:12:11Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-30T01:13:06Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T01:19:00Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T01:23:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T01:27:54Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T01:28:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T01:41:09Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T01:45:06Z pjb: It's the rule for `(x1 x2 x3 … xn . atom) that is used. 2017-07-30T01:46:01Z pjb: `(,@(+ 1 2)) = (append [,@(+ 1 2)] (quote nil)) = (append (+ 1 2) (quote nil)) #| ERROR: The value 3 is not of the expected type list. |# 2017-07-30T01:46:04Z pjb: it should be an error. 2017-07-30T01:46:58Z eelster joined #lisp 2017-07-30T01:47:45Z pjb: To produce 3 you should write: `( ,@nil . ,(+ 1 2)) or just `,(+ 1 2) #| --> 3 |# 2017-07-30T01:47:54Z eelster quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T01:48:37Z eelster joined #lisp 2017-07-30T01:49:40Z pjb: slark: this is not conforming, don't use that form, it should produce an error. (But all implementations return 3). 2017-07-30T01:51:55Z slark: pjb: indeed thx for the information 2017-07-30T01:54:09Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T01:58:21Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-30T01:58:48Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T02:00:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T02:05:31Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T02:09:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:18:16Z warweasle1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:21:53Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-30T02:21:57Z warweasle1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T02:21:57Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T02:22:16Z warweasle1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:22:25Z paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:24:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:28:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T02:31:37Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T02:43:38Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:46:02Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T02:49:15Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:50:20Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T02:50:48Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-30T02:51:41Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T03:06:53Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-30T03:17:14Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-30T03:19:32Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T03:21:25Z warweasle1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T03:23:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-30T03:24:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T03:25:10Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T03:28:10Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T03:29:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T03:43:51Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-30T03:43:59Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-30T03:53:07Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T03:54:54Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:01:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:01:44Z warweasle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T04:02:07Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:02:49Z abel-abel1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:02:50Z slark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T04:03:03Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:03:42Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T04:04:14Z abel-abel1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T04:06:13Z abel-abel1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:13:24Z abel-abel1 quit (Quit: abel-abel1) 2017-07-30T04:14:34Z abel-abel1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:15:36Z abel-abel1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T04:16:19Z abel-abel1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:18:07Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:19:31Z scymtym quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-30T04:20:40Z bugrum joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:20:58Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T04:22:50Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T04:24:29Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:25:24Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T04:25:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:27:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-30T04:28:05Z beach: phoe_: It is fine to return an instance of STANDARD-DATE. 2017-07-30T04:28:16Z beach: phoe_: There is not much else you can do. 2017-07-30T04:30:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-30T04:36:41Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-30T04:57:11Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-30T04:58:08Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:01:19Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T05:03:59Z caffe: morning, beach 2017-07-30T05:16:14Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:18:47Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:23:07Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T05:26:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:28:14Z slyrus: I hate it when I'm debugging problems I know I've solved before... 2017-07-30T05:28:31Z beach: I fully understand. 2017-07-30T05:28:47Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T05:30:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:32:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T05:36:55Z marvin2: is there a pattern matching library with ability to attempt multiple matches if prior ones failed? 2017-07-30T05:37:32Z slyrus: finally. I remembered. bogus type declaration in fast-http that hadn't been updated on this machine. 2017-07-30T05:42:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T05:43:17Z abel-abel1 quit (Quit: abel-abel1) 2017-07-30T05:47:15Z borei joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:47:25Z borei: hi all 2017-07-30T05:47:38Z borei: quick question about generic functions 2017-07-30T05:47:48Z borei: ... and methods 2017-07-30T05:48:46Z borei: can i use method as an argument for sb-thread:make-thread 2017-07-30T05:48:55Z borei: i use SBCL 2017-07-30T05:52:26Z abel-abel1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:54:03Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-30T05:56:30Z procl0 quit (Quit: zZzZzzZZ) 2017-07-30T06:07:37Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T06:10:58Z abel-abel1 is now known as abel-abel 2017-07-30T06:16:07Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-30T06:17:44Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T06:21:21Z goosnargh: borei: Yes. (defmethod foo (a b) (cons a b)) (sb-thread:make-thread #'foo :name "FOO" :arguments '(x y)) => # 2017-07-30T06:28:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T06:29:18Z whoma1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T06:31:46Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-30T06:33:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T06:34:00Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T06:38:31Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T06:42:11Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T06:55:13Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T06:57:24Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T06:57:36Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-30T06:58:37Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T06:59:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:01:55Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:01:56Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:03:38Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:04:40Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:05:00Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:06:29Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:08:33Z creat joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:09:33Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:12:15Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T07:13:28Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:16:21Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T07:20:01Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:24:24Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:25:16Z beach: goosnargh: That is not correct. 2017-07-30T07:26:11Z caffe: sad story... 2017-07-30T07:26:34Z caffe: when a nice old place gets ruined by a greedy BOFH 2017-07-30T07:26:48Z beach: minion: memo for borei: You can't execute a method independently of the generic function it belongs to. What goosnargh suggested implicitly creates a generic function named FOO and passes it to the thread creation. 2017-07-30T07:26:48Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell borei when he/she/it next speaks. 2017-07-30T07:27:45Z beach: caffe: Which one are you thinking of? 2017-07-30T07:28:00Z damke__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T07:28:32Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:28:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:29:34Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:29:54Z wadadli joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:29:54Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T07:30:07Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:30:12Z goosnargh: beach: Yes, that's right. I left out the SBCL warning: "WARNING: Implicitly creating new generic function COMMON-LISP-USER::FOO." 2017-07-30T07:30:42Z goosnargh: Technically it's the generic function that is called, not the method. 2017-07-30T07:31:12Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:32:06Z beach: It is important to use the correct terminology. Either borei was using the correct terminology and the answer to the question was "no", or else borei was not using the correct terminology, and that fact should be pointed out. 2017-07-30T07:32:40Z beach: Otherwise, here on #lisp the discussion tends to degenerate into a pointless exchange with undefined or badly defined terms. 2017-07-30T07:36:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:36:35Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T07:36:42Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:40:10Z happy_gnu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:40:38Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T07:42:36Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T07:47:20Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:47:37Z keviv_ is now known as keviv 2017-07-30T07:50:31Z happy_gnu joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:54:37Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T07:58:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T07:58:42Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T08:00:47Z Reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T08:01:24Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:01:28Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:01:49Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T08:02:27Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:03:02Z caffe: beach: i'll let you know after the dust settles 2017-07-30T08:03:26Z _main_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T08:03:42Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:03:46Z phoe_: marvin2: are you using trivia/optima? 2017-07-30T08:04:27Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:04:43Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-30T08:05:56Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T08:07:23Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:07:54Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2017-07-30T08:09:55Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T08:10:35Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:14:20Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T08:24:10Z jeremiah__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-30T08:28:54Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:40:34Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T08:43:03Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T08:48:17Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T08:50:00Z tetero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-30T09:00:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:00:59Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-30T09:01:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:01:30Z eelster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:02:10Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:02:42Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:04:52Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:06:30Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:07:43Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:09:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:09:47Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:10:11Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:10:39Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:11:04Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:11:44Z getha quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T09:13:50Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T09:15:08Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:16:24Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:17:37Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:18:49Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:20:44Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:21:14Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:24:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:24:34Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:26:41Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:29:14Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:30:10Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:32:15Z chinchilla quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-30T09:34:36Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T09:35:00Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:38:37Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T09:39:40Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:39:59Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:43:17Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-30T09:58:18Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T10:04:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:06:20Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T10:07:09Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:07:29Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:14:37Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T10:15:20Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:17:31Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T10:20:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T10:21:33Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-30T10:22:10Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:22:17Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T10:22:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:43:00Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T10:43:48Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:47:52Z oleo: morning 2017-07-30T10:51:03Z tetero joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:52:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:57:00Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-30T10:57:10Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-30T11:03:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:06:07Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:08:29Z ecutuning joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:17:13Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:17:37Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:17:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:20:38Z phoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:23:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:24:15Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:27:54Z tetero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-30T11:29:09Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:32:46Z |gaz| quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:33:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:33:47Z goosnargh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:34:16Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:36:48Z beach: Hello oleo. 2017-07-30T11:36:55Z oleo: morning beach 2017-07-30T11:36:59Z beach is very busy today with plenty of lunch guests. 2017-07-30T11:37:57Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:37:59Z oleo: i'm trying to build supercollider but it failed at sclang in libreadline which told me i don't have the references to the symbols tgetstr etc..which seems to be a thing of curses/termcap.... 2017-07-30T11:38:07Z oleo: meh 2017-07-30T11:38:33Z oleo: and the distro package doesn't work either.... 2017-07-30T11:38:33Z |gaz| joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:38:50Z oleo: it's an older version i suppose but anyway..... 2017-07-30T11:39:04Z oleo: there's no gui appearing.... 2017-07-30T11:39:15Z oleo: i only find a socket somewhere but that's it 2017-07-30T11:39:22Z oleo: eheh 2017-07-30T11:39:26Z oleo: :/ 2017-07-30T11:40:10Z oleo: tried to reinstall some of the modules, am recompiling right now, will see if it will work soon 2017-07-30T11:48:56Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:49:53Z ecutuning quit 2017-07-30T11:55:01Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:55:33Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-30T11:55:52Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:56:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:57:23Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:58:10Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T11:58:48Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-30T11:59:25Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T12:00:20Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:03:28Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T12:08:36Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T12:10:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:12:43Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T12:13:43Z davide89v joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:13:47Z davide89v left #lisp 2017-07-30T12:17:56Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-30T12:17:57Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:18:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:26:30Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T12:28:48Z JohnTalent quit (Changing host) 2017-07-30T12:28:48Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:30:24Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:31:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:32:16Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:33:05Z abel-abel quit (Quit: abel-abel) 2017-07-30T12:33:49Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:35:00Z abel-abel quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T12:35:40Z abel-abel joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:35:57Z abel-abel quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T12:36:07Z goosnargh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T12:38:55Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:39:23Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T12:41:42Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T12:41:59Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:45:32Z tetero joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:47:20Z tetero: Shinmera: Did you make the graphics engine for that game yourself? 2017-07-30T12:48:56Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T12:49:44Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:50:09Z antoszka: is Nikodemus here? Looks like OSICAT is missing the BABEL dependency in the ASDF system definition. 2017-07-30T12:50:25Z antoszka: (stumbled across that on a fresh quicklisp installation somewhere) 2017-07-30T12:50:41Z JohnTalent: Good morning. 2017-07-30T12:52:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-30T12:53:20Z andrzejku quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T12:55:23Z Shinmera: tetero: Yes. 2017-07-30T12:57:59Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T12:58:09Z tetero: Shinmera: Cool. Are you releasing that as a library? 2017-07-30T12:58:53Z Shinmera: The code's public but I won't release it for probably another decade given the things I want to do and the speed at which I'm progressing 2017-07-30T12:59:22Z Shinmera: So until then it's "you have been warned"-type of stuff. 2017-07-30T12:59:28Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:00:07Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T13:02:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:02:24Z madmalik joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:02:40Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:03:17Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:03:33Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:04:31Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:07:05Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T13:08:18Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:09:10Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-30T13:09:41Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:13:22Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:15:20Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:15:22Z tetero: Shinmera: Ah, I was just curious mostly 2017-07-30T13:15:47Z Shinmera: http://shirakumo.org/projects/trial 2017-07-30T13:15:56Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:21:35Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:25:48Z goosnargh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:26:33Z tetero: Shinmera: Thanks :) 2017-07-30T13:27:21Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:30:37Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T13:33:57Z fe[nl]ix: antoszka: osicat depends on cffi which depends on babel 2017-07-30T13:34:55Z antoszka: fe[nl]ix: Yeah, I've dug down to that. For some reason (somehow broken dependency resolution in QL) -- when I load CFFI on a fresh QL installation, BABEL gets pulled in as a dep correctly. 2017-07-30T13:35:32Z antoszka: fe[nl]ix: When I load OSICAT directly, BABEL *does not* get loaded and I fail with a non-existent babel error from CFFI from OSICAT. 2017-07-30T13:35:49Z antoszka: Should I file that problem with Xach? Or with OSICAT? Or with CFFI? 2017-07-30T13:37:59Z fe[nl]ix: probably with QL 2017-07-30T13:38:14Z fe[nl]ix: osicat does not use Babel directly anywhere in the source code 2017-07-30T13:38:40Z antoszka: yeah 2017-07-30T13:38:51Z antoszka: OK, I'll file an issue with QL, thanks. 2017-07-30T13:39:18Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T13:39:22Z antoszka: Though it gut feels like an ASDF problem somewhere. 2017-07-30T13:42:08Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:42:25Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:42:35Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:44:01Z BW^- joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:44:31Z BW^-: Can I use Relaxed Radix Balanced Trees as an extended Union Find, which gives me Union Find Split ? 2017-07-30T13:44:34Z pjb: Check the osicat system, perhaps it's missing a dependency on babel? 2017-07-30T13:44:38Z BW^-: bech: hi :D 2017-07-30T13:44:56Z BW^-: beach: :) 2017-07-30T13:46:56Z Ukari quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T13:47:27Z fe[nl]ix: antoszka: use asdf:load-system to test that 2017-07-30T13:49:25Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:49:32Z Ukari quit (Changing host) 2017-07-30T13:49:32Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:49:36Z antoszka: busy editing audio ATM, will probably do that in the evening 2017-07-30T13:50:25Z antoszka: fe[nl]ix: will that use the same ASDF that QL uses? I'm a bit puzzled about which ASDF is used when (one is bundled with whatever CL I use, another is bundled with QL, another is quickloadable?) 2017-07-30T13:50:42Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:51:35Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:51:50Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:52:10Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:53:36Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:54:33Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:55:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:55:50Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T13:57:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-30T13:57:41Z warweasle_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:00:17Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:00:36Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:10:05Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:12:33Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:15:27Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:18:27Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:19:15Z phoe joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:19:59Z BW^-: anyone? 2017-07-30T14:21:17Z antoszka: BW^-: I understand the individual words, but I've no idea what you're talking about :) 2017-07-30T14:22:16Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:26:27Z goosnargh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:26:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:31:53Z Ukari joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:34:57Z edgar-rft uses Magic Forests for Unicorn Find 2017-07-30T14:37:38Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:41:57Z BW^-: antoszka: lol :)) 2017-07-30T14:41:57Z sparkyy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:41:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:42:24Z BW^-: 1) (Union:) Merge two trees, and 2017-07-30T14:42:24Z BW^-: 2) (Find:) To check if two nodes belong to the same tree fast (e.g. by looking up the unique identifier/root of a tree fast). 2017-07-30T14:42:24Z BW^-: 3) (Split:) To split a tree into two trees fast. 2017-07-30T14:42:35Z BW^-: antoszka: that's what i mean. :) 2017-07-30T14:44:38Z sparkyy joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:45:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:49:08Z warweasle_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:49:57Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T14:57:00Z learning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T14:59:17Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2017-07-30T15:01:14Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:01:46Z flazh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:05:34Z fe[nl]ix: antoszka: you do have access to the source code 2017-07-30T15:05:42Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T15:06:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:09:17Z vicfred quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:10:22Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:12:04Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:12:16Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:17:09Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:21:11Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:22:08Z vicfred joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:22:08Z fkac is now known as fkuc 2017-07-30T15:22:58Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:24:28Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:24:57Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T15:26:22Z les quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-30T15:26:22Z nicdev quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-30T15:27:06Z les joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:27:12Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:27:29Z goosnargh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:32:01Z fkuc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T15:35:55Z ratmzep joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:37:13Z ratmzep left #lisp 2017-07-30T15:40:56Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:42:26Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:42:45Z beaky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T15:44:01Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:44:08Z beaky joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:47:52Z Grue`: antoszka: I think the newest version is used. ASDF has some clever macroing so that when an older version is loaded over the newer one, it doesn't do anything 2017-07-30T15:48:18Z Grue`: usually the implementation version is newer than quicklisp's so the implementation version is used 2017-07-30T15:50:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:50:44Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:54:01Z learning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T15:59:02Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:59:11Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T15:59:24Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:03:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T16:05:40Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T16:06:58Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:07:15Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:09:23Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:10:01Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:11:10Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:14:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:16:43Z learnin__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:17:06Z learning_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T16:17:59Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-30T16:23:39Z learnin__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T16:23:40Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:26:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:26:41Z vicfred quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-30T16:28:32Z goosnargh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T16:32:17Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T16:33:56Z vicfred joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:34:10Z bugrum joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:34:18Z bugrum quit 2017-07-30T16:34:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T16:38:25Z solyd joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:39:23Z solyd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-30T16:39:23Z solyd joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:39:23Z solyd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-30T16:39:23Z solyd joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:44:46Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-30T16:45:48Z vicfred quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T16:48:01Z mxh- joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:48:58Z vicfred joined #lisp 2017-07-30T16:50:11Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T16:58:37Z solyd quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-30T16:59:15Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:01:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:03:47Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:06:27Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:10:25Z phoe: beach: you told me that I should remind you of a fix I suggested in the protocol chapter, so hereby I remind you. 2017-07-30T17:10:28Z phoe: 15:03 < phoe> It's just my opinion here, but I'd like a two-part description with a formal and informal part, such as, "a protocol is complete if there is no argument of some operation such that (...). Informally speaking, a protocol is incomplete if it contains operations that do not contribute to the (...) or have side effects." 2017-07-30T17:11:47Z vicfred quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:18:42Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:19:06Z krasnal__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:22:06Z nsnc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-07-30T17:23:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T17:23:21Z nsnc joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:24:21Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:25:56Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:28:52Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T17:29:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:29:47Z goosnargh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:33:23Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:34:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:36:35Z wadadli quit (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com) 2017-07-30T17:37:57Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:38:12Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:48:13Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T17:49:16Z goosnargh joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:51:17Z keviv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T17:54:24Z P-hard joined #lisp 2017-07-30T17:56:21Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:07:17Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T18:08:31Z wadadli_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:10:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T18:10:37Z nsnc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T18:10:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T18:11:34Z nsnc joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:11:47Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:12:12Z treaki joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:13:29Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T18:19:07Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T18:19:25Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:22:05Z wadadli__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:22:06Z beach: phoe: Is this just for the section about completeness? 2017-07-30T18:22:09Z wadadli__ quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-30T18:22:14Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-30T18:25:46Z wadadli_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T18:28:14Z goosnargh left #lisp 2017-07-30T18:28:20Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:29:40Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T18:30:39Z phoe: beach: Yes, I think so. 2017-07-30T18:30:45Z wadadli joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:30:58Z wadadli quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-30T18:31:39Z beach: The existing description is informal. So you are looking for a formal one? 2017-07-30T18:31:53Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:34:52Z antoszka: Grue`: Ack, thanks. 2017-07-30T18:35:20Z phoe: Yes, I'm looking for a formal one. We were talking about how to define one - I just needed to remind you because back when we were talking about this, AFAIR you had no time to handle my comment. 2017-07-30T18:35:36Z beach: Right. 2017-07-30T18:36:26Z beach: OK, I'll think about it. 2017-07-30T18:36:49Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-30T18:37:31Z beach: It is going to be difficult, because I haven't define side effect. 2017-07-30T18:37:37Z beach: It might not be worth it. 2017-07-30T18:38:24Z beach: Anyway, I'm off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family. 2017-07-30T18:42:39Z phoe: Okay! 2017-07-30T18:44:29Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-30T18:44:47Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-30T18:47:44Z keviv joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:01:48Z wadadli joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:02:40Z P-hard left #lisp 2017-07-30T19:08:35Z wadadli quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T19:10:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:12:10Z learning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T19:15:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T19:17:37Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:17:51Z learning_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:21:31Z learning_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T19:25:52Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T19:27:06Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:29:29Z tanguy joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:29:36Z tanguy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T19:31:27Z vap1 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:31:27Z vaporatorius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T19:31:47Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T19:32:06Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:35:24Z pmc joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:36:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:38:47Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T19:44:19Z arbv_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:46:24Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T19:46:27Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T19:46:27Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-30T19:49:20Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T19:52:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-30T19:55:04Z pmc left #lisp 2017-07-30T20:00:09Z wadadli_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:00:41Z wadadli__ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:04:28Z wadadli_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T20:04:32Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:10:09Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-30T20:11:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:16:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T20:26:24Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:28:31Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T20:29:09Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:33:12Z andrzejku quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T20:33:45Z Shinmera: Day two progress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHYzs0uQTWs 2017-07-30T20:33:51Z Shinmera: It's starting to look like an actual game now, woah 2017-07-30T20:34:23Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:37:18Z _death: looks kinda another world-ish 2017-07-30T20:38:31Z Shinmera: Probably due to the animation slowdown effects and such. 2017-07-30T20:38:33Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:42:26Z xantoz joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:43:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:49:21Z deep-book-gk_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T20:49:45Z deep-book-gk_ left #lisp 2017-07-30T21:01:45Z _death: I was thinking about the graphics.. (I was talking about the game Another World if that wasn't clear) 2017-07-30T21:01:59Z Shinmera: I know 2017-07-30T21:02:27Z Shinmera: I was referring to how the run animation slows down while jumping, which if I remember correctly is very similar to how Another World looks. 2017-07-30T21:03:59Z mxh- left #lisp 2017-07-30T21:04:29Z _death: yeah.. I was also reminded of some old atari game with ninjas because of the wall stickiness, but I'm not sure that game actually had it like that 2017-07-30T21:05:06Z Shinmera: Well, wall jumping is standard fare in platformers. 2017-07-30T21:08:37Z _death: anyway cool stuff.. are you livestreaming it? 2017-07-30T21:08:51Z Shinmera: Yeah, during the day. We're done for today though. 2017-07-30T21:09:06Z Shinmera: Happens on http://stream.shinmera.com (streamed to youtube and twitch) 2017-07-30T21:09:19Z _death: ok 2017-07-30T21:09:45Z Shinmera: Still got tomorrow to go, but it's probably just gonna be cleanup and testing deployment. 2017-07-30T21:12:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T21:14:13Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-30T21:15:48Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T21:17:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T21:17:25Z mishoo quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T21:19:55Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T21:26:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-30T21:28:08Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T21:30:00Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T21:32:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T21:39:27Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T21:46:22Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-30T21:55:42Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T21:56:12Z whoman: http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/blog/2017/07/23/Overloading-mathematical-operators-in-elisp/ 2017-07-30T21:57:12Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-30T21:57:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:00:30Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:01:10Z andrzejku joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:03:14Z andrzejku quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T22:06:21Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:08:36Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:08:47Z aceluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T22:09:25Z aceluck joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:09:45Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:11:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:13:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:13:47Z aceluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:18:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:22:25Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-30T22:22:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:25:49Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:30:15Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-30T22:31:37Z wadadli__ quit (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com) 2017-07-30T22:31:59Z marvin3 joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:32:18Z wadadli_ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:34:47Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:36:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:43:38Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-30T22:47:17Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:50:16Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T22:53:11Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:00:20Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:01:42Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-30T23:09:29Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:09:30Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:09:38Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:09:53Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:10:10Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:10:27Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:10:38Z l04m33[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:14:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:14:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:14:52Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:19:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:19:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:27:29Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-30T23:27:44Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T23:29:07Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:32:57Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:37:07Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:40:26Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:41:05Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:19Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:20Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:20Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:20Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:36Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:40Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:40Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-30T23:49:51Z wadadli_ quit (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com) 2017-07-30T23:53:07Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-30T23:59:12Z marvin3 quit 2017-07-31T00:11:03Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T00:29:44Z wadadli joined #lisp 2017-07-31T00:29:44Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-31T00:34:25Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2017-07-31T00:40:44Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-31T00:51:33Z dddddd quit (Quit: Hasta otra..) 2017-07-31T00:53:36Z deep-book-gk joined #lisp 2017-07-31T00:53:48Z deep-book-gk left #lisp 2017-07-31T00:57:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T01:01:05Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T01:11:56Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:18:43Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:21:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:22:41Z pmc joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:26:25Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-31T01:26:48Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T01:30:20Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T01:32:52Z pmc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T01:44:57Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:48:39Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:50:07Z warweasle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T01:50:32Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:50:49Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:58:09Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T01:59:44Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T02:02:42Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T02:03:46Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T02:05:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:10:55Z diegs_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T02:13:36Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T02:17:05Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:36:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:36:30Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:36:37Z LAG_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:42:34Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-31T02:44:30Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:45:53Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-07-31T02:47:48Z treaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T02:47:58Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T02:48:33Z treaki joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:53:26Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:55:47Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T02:56:06Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:56:31Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T02:56:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:57:18Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T02:57:36Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T02:57:40Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:57:43Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-31T02:58:03Z warweasle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T02:58:06Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T02:58:25Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:58:25Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:58:54Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T02:59:05Z WhiskyRyan joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:59:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T02:59:42Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T03:01:25Z karswell joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:03:12Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T03:16:52Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-31T03:18:30Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T03:18:56Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:19:16Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T03:20:31Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-31T03:20:34Z WhiskyRyan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-31T03:21:22Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:23:32Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T03:24:18Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T03:24:26Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:28:45Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T03:31:15Z cibs joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:41:07Z treaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T03:41:44Z treaki joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:42:49Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-07-31T03:49:21Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:49:53Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:52:16Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T03:54:04Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-31T03:54:25Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-07-31T03:57:38Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-31T03:59:18Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:00:15Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T04:01:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:02:29Z nobodyzxc joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:02:55Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:04:14Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T04:07:57Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T04:14:59Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:18:09Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:19:18Z wadadli: Good morning beach 2017-07-31T04:20:41Z beach: wadadli: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2017-07-31T04:21:48Z wadadli: Yes, thanks for inquiring. 2017-07-31T04:22:37Z beach: What brings you to #lisp? 2017-07-31T04:23:06Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T04:25:27Z wadadli: The intent of opening the books about list I own, some day. Haha. 2017-07-31T04:25:41Z Ukari quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T04:25:50Z beach: Oh, OK. If you need advice, just ask. And welcome! 2017-07-31T04:27:05Z bjorksung: wadadli, which lisp books do you own? 2017-07-31T04:28:14Z wadadli: land of lisp 2017-07-31T04:28:19Z wadadli: not sure of the others 2017-07-31T04:29:40Z beach: I never read that one. But as I recall, it is not a book for beginners. 2017-07-31T04:31:50Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T04:33:20Z wadadli: oh okay 2017-07-31T04:34:34Z sjl: Land of Lisp certainly tries to be for beginners 2017-07-31T04:34:43Z beach: Oh, OK. 2017-07-31T04:34:48Z sjl: whether or not it achieves that goal is up for debate I guess 2017-07-31T04:34:51Z beach: It also has some quirks in it, like assuming things about the backquote reader macro that isn't in the standard, and that a major implementation does not support. 2017-07-31T04:34:55Z beach: Heh, sure. 2017-07-31T04:35:14Z sjl: Yeah, the clisp-specific bits are annoying 2017-07-31T04:36:33Z loke: sjl: What clisp-specific parts? 2017-07-31T04:36:53Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:37:34Z beach: loke: It assumes that the backquote macro generates simple things like APPEND, CONS, etc. But SBCL generates a structure instance for the purpose of better pretty-printing. 2017-07-31T04:38:15Z beach: loke: This is from what I have heard here. Like I said, I never read it. 2017-07-31T04:38:24Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T04:38:29Z sjl: The networking chapter uses the clisp socket interface instead of something like usocket 2017-07-31T04:38:37Z loke: beach: Such a section should simply be elimited, I think. Are there any other CL's that does that other than CLISP? 2017-07-31T04:39:10Z beach: loke: I am pretty sure SBCL is unique. Nevertheless, SBCL is conforming in this respect and the book is not. 2017-07-31T04:39:40Z loke: beach: Of cours eit is. I was just wondering if the book's assumptions were true for any other CL. 2017-07-31T04:40:02Z treaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T04:40:07Z treaki__ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:40:13Z beach: I don't know. Sorry. But sjl might. 2017-07-31T04:40:42Z sjl: SBCL isn't unique 2017-07-31T04:40:44Z sjl: [Armed Bear] CL-USER> '`(foo ,@bar) 2017-07-31T04:40:46Z sjl: (SYSTEM::BACKQ-CONS (QUOTE FOO) BAR) 2017-07-31T04:41:13Z sjl: and ECL does (SI:QUASIQUOTE (FOO (SI:UNQUOTE-SPLICE BAR))) 2017-07-31T04:41:28Z sjl: so yeah, assuming ` expands to the vanilla ops is not ideal 2017-07-31T04:41:28Z beach: Ah, OK. And that breaks the assumption of the book as well? 2017-07-31T04:41:43Z sjl: Not sure where the assumption you're talking about is 2017-07-31T04:41:46Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T04:42:28Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:42:45Z beach: I should be quiet since I haven't read it. I just know that it can't handle the structure instance generated by SBCL. Whether it can handle any list structure or not, I don't know. 2017-07-31T04:43:57Z sjl: it also uses clisp's stuff for shelling out to dot 2017-07-31T04:44:04Z sjl: (ext:shell (concatenate 'string "dot -Tpng -O " fname))) 2017-07-31T04:44:11Z sjl: instead of uiop:run-program or whatever 2017-07-31T04:44:29Z beach: Good to know. Thanks! 2017-07-31T04:45:08Z sjl: it would probably be possible to come up with a pretty small list of errata that one could use to follow along in other implementation 2017-07-31T04:45:09Z sjl: s 2017-07-31T04:45:29Z sjl: though for some things, like sockets, the ideal solution would be to use a library like usocket 2017-07-31T04:45:45Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:45:49Z sjl: and then you need to dive down the rabbit hole of adsf/quicklisp/etc which the book tries to avoid for beginners 2017-07-31T04:46:21Z LAG_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-31T04:51:35Z bjorksung: beach, I just got hold of an intro to CS whose second chapter starts with graphs! A bit unusual. 2017-07-31T04:55:19Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T04:57:38Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T04:58:44Z beach: bjorksung: Who is the author? 2017-07-31T04:59:44Z beach: That would be me! :) 2017-07-31T05:01:16Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T05:03:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:07:08Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T05:07:16Z beach: bjorksung: So, by doing this by PM, you just deprived me of the opportunity to recommend this book to everyone here in order for me to cash in my part of the sales price of the book. 2017-07-31T05:08:57Z bjorksung: hahaha 2017-07-31T05:09:46Z bjorksung: Well beach, I now have your book on Introduction to CS! 2017-07-31T05:09:56Z bjorksung: Chapter 2: Graphs! No hello world here. 2017-07-31T05:10:01Z bjorksung: should be an intriguing read. 2017-07-31T05:10:55Z beach: Right, it's not a book about programming. It's a book about (what I think are) the main considerations in CS: theory, algorithms/data structures, programming. 2017-07-31T05:13:40Z beach: Consider it to be a book for those who have not yet made up their minds about whether to study CS. This book is meant to help them make up their minds, either for or against. 2017-07-31T05:14:06Z bjorksung: I don't think I've ever seen graphs covered in an intro book before. It's a bold approach, to say the least. 2017-07-31T05:15:25Z beach: There are too many people who think they would be unable to choose CS (perhaps because they think it is all about programming), but who be great in doing so. I want to encourage those people to consider studying CS. There are also too many people studying CS who don't belong there, and I want to encourage those people to choose something else. 2017-07-31T05:15:48Z beach: but who WOULD be great. 2017-07-31T05:16:12Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:16:31Z GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:17:03Z GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-07-31T05:18:39Z beach: bjorksung: Actually, the book is not about graphs. Graph theory is just an example of a domain that does not have only one reasonable API, simply because for reasons of performance, one has to choose what operations to support. The book is about the compromises one has to make when defining an API according to the desired complexity of the different operations in the API. 2017-07-31T05:19:51Z beach: So, I chose graphs to illustrate those compromises, and I show how different problems in graph theory have different performance characteristics according to which API is chosen. 2017-07-31T05:20:49Z bjorksung: I see. 2017-07-31T05:22:23Z beach: Even here, we often get questions like: "Could you point me to a library for manipulating SETs?" 2017-07-31T05:22:33Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:22:51Z beach: Unfortunately, SETs is another domain that does not have one single API that makes all operations efficient. 2017-07-31T05:23:56Z beach: That is why we have lists, hash tables, balanced binary trees, etc. Each data structure represents a different compromise. 2017-07-31T05:25:21Z beach: So, for instance, if the domain only supports the EQUAL operation, there is nothing you can do except storing your objects in a list. 2017-07-31T05:25:50Z beach: If the domain supports the LESS operation, you can do better with a balanced binary tree. 2017-07-31T05:26:33Z beach: And if the domain admits a HASH function, you can often do better with a hash table. But again, not all operations are efficient. 2017-07-31T05:26:53Z beach: So, in summary, everyone should buy my book. :) 2017-07-31T05:27:04Z bjorksung: Yes@ 2017-07-31T05:27:15Z bjorksung: I have! version 2.0 too. 2017-07-31T05:27:39Z beach: Right. Still some typos in it, but should be good otherwise. 2017-07-31T05:27:54Z beach: The hazards of self publishing. 2017-07-31T05:28:47Z beach: Anyway, I need to go. Monday mornings are crazy around here. I'll be back later. 2017-07-31T05:29:24Z stylewarning: What book 2017-07-31T05:30:04Z _GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:30:09Z _GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-07-31T05:30:35Z bjorksung: Strandh Robert: An introduction to Computer Science. 2017-07-31T05:30:43Z bjorksung: beach's book. 2017-07-31T05:30:55Z stylewarning: I didn't know it existed 2017-07-31T05:31:04Z bjorksung: you're both welcome then :) 2017-07-31T05:31:47Z stylewarning: Probably second to his bestseller Robert's Rules of Order :) 2017-07-31T05:31:59Z bjorksung: naturally! 2017-07-31T05:31:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:32:40Z bjorksung: should have been Strandh, Robert. I left a comma out. 2017-07-31T05:33:07Z bjorksung: hexchat failed to show a style warning, stylewarning. 2017-07-31T05:36:32Z stylewarning: ;) 2017-07-31T05:39:12Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T05:41:11Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:42:02Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:43:22Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T05:43:55Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T05:44:53Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:45:28Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T05:56:17Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T05:58:56Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T06:10:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T06:13:50Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-31T06:15:42Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T06:22:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T06:23:39Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T06:29:18Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:29:52Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:34:49Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T06:35:06Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:35:16Z flamebeard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T06:42:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:45:48Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T06:46:59Z solyd joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:49:09Z solyd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-31T06:49:09Z solyd joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:49:09Z solyd quit (Changing host) 2017-07-31T06:49:09Z solyd joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:51:35Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T06:53:47Z vsync joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:57:19Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-07-31T06:58:28Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-07-31T07:02:22Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:04:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:05:01Z shka joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:07:32Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:14:25Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T07:16:22Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-31T07:19:07Z solyd quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-31T07:19:57Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:24:37Z solyd joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:25:27Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T07:29:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:29:46Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T07:38:50Z schweers joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:40:22Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:42:01Z solyd quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-31T07:42:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T07:44:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:44:39Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:48:25Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:49:11Z phoe_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:52:52Z vsync_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T07:53:49Z vsync quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T07:56:46Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T08:00:44Z GuilOooo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-31T08:04:24Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:06:18Z phoe_: for the first time in my life, I felt the urge to map my Caps Lock to Ctrl 2017-07-31T08:06:27Z phoe_: it just feels so... natural 2017-07-31T08:07:15Z loke: phoe_: wait what? You didn't do it before? 2017-07-31T08:07:29Z schweers: phoe: I’m still not sure how to handle that; I use a layout where the Caps Lock key is another modifier. 2017-07-31T08:07:46Z phoe_: loke: I did not, and I just realized how bending my pinky feels... weird 2017-07-31T08:10:55Z loke: Emacs is honestly impossible to use with control in the default PC position. 2017-07-31T08:11:44Z schweers: loke: I wouldn’t go that far, but it is far from perfect and I’m still unsure how to rectify this. possibly by buying a non-standard keyboard. 2017-07-31T08:12:14Z loke: schweers: I have mapped Super and Hyper to other keys 2017-07-31T08:12:50Z schweers: loke: hyper? I know where the super key is, but what kind of keyboard has a hyper key? 2017-07-31T08:12:51Z loke: Let's see, I have... on the bottom row... Control, Super, Meta, Space, AltGr, Hyper, Compose, Control 2017-07-31T08:13:01Z loke: The right-most control should be something else... I think. 2017-07-31T08:13:14Z loke: schweers: Any keybaord where you have mapped Hyper. 2017-07-31T08:13:34Z schweers: I’m wondering which physical key you used 2017-07-31T08:13:39Z loke: I generally use Hyper for window management (since I'm using StumpWM, so no mouse control of widnows) 2017-07-31T08:13:58Z schweers: same here with i3 2017-07-31T08:14:00Z loke: Like I said, one key away from space 2017-07-31T08:14:26Z loke: I have a handful of Hyper-key combos set up for StumpWM, but most of that range is unused. 2017-07-31T08:14:38Z schweers: so super and hyper have the same printing (at least on a standard keyboard)? 2017-07-31T08:14:53Z loke: schweers: I have no idea what it looks like on a pc keyboard. I have custom keycaps. 2017-07-31T08:15:00Z loke: Let me se... 2017-07-31T08:15:04Z loke: It has a windows symbol on it 2017-07-31T08:15:30Z loke: https://www.softwarert.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/windows-keyboard-shortcuts.gif 2017-07-31T08:15:43Z loke: The one with a colourful windows logo on it, net to Alt. 2017-07-31T08:15:45Z loke: next 2017-07-31T08:15:56Z loke: On the right hand side 2017-07-31T08:16:10Z loke: As I explained when I wrote down exactly what my bottom row keys are 2017-07-31T08:16:52Z schweers: okay, so the right “windows” key is hyper, that’s at least how I understood your previous statement 2017-07-31T08:16:59Z loke: yes 2017-07-31T08:17:12Z loke: I have a custom xkb file to give me all the mapping I need 2017-07-31T08:17:55Z loke: I have most of the special symbols mapped to AltGr... Like “typographic quotes”, and the like. 2017-07-31T08:18:16Z schweers: I’m not sure I like the idea of having only one super key. I really do like symmetry, it makes touch typing much more pleasant for me 2017-07-31T08:18:22Z loke: More complex stuff is with compose, like → arrows ← 2017-07-31T08:18:58Z loke: schweers: I consider touch typing to be serverly overrated. 2017-07-31T08:19:18Z schweers: I couldn’t live without it 2017-07-31T08:19:21Z loke: I learned it, I can use it, but there is no benefit. 2017-07-31T08:19:27Z schweers: but then again: I don’t have to 2017-07-31T08:19:54Z loke: I usually keep my left index finger on F and the right on H 2017-07-31T08:20:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T08:21:12Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:21:20Z schweers: anyway, the reason why I cannot map control to caps-lock, is because I use a variant of this layout: http://neo-layout.org/ 2017-07-31T08:21:41Z schweers: the letters are different, but the rest (including the modifiers) are the same 2017-07-31T08:23:37Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:23:42Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:23:52Z schweers: on topic question: is there something wrong with having multiple dots in a directory name and then obtaining a namestring for a file in said directory? 2017-07-31T08:25:10Z schweers: here is my problem case: (namestring (make-pathname :defaults #P"importer.tmp.5113/" :name "geometry.kch")) signals an error: "too many dots in the name: ~S" 2017-07-31T08:25:51Z phoe_: schweers: which implementation? 2017-07-31T08:25:54Z schweers: sbcl 2017-07-31T08:26:00Z phoe_: this is a valid Unix file name 2017-07-31T08:26:08Z phoe_: and sbcl should not err on this 2017-07-31T08:26:19Z schweers: I know, but it does on my system :( 2017-07-31T08:26:41Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:26:45Z schweers: well, I don’t “know”---I just assumed 2017-07-31T08:27:08Z schweers: shouldn’t that even be valid on windows? 2017-07-31T08:27:27Z phoe_: schweers: it should 2017-07-31T08:27:33Z phoe_: poke #sbcl 2017-07-31T08:28:10Z schweers: hmm, works on clisp 2017-07-31T08:28:12Z schweers: will do so 2017-07-31T08:28:52Z Shinmera: it working in any other implementation is not really indication of sbcl being "wrong" 2017-07-31T08:28:55Z Shinmera: this is pathnames after all. 2017-07-31T08:30:30Z schweers: Shinmera: I didn’t mean to imply that sbcl is wrong 2017-07-31T08:30:40Z schweers: My first assumption is that I’m missing something 2017-07-31T08:31:22Z phoe_: Shinmera: pathnames are implementation-specific, correct, but in this case there's a valid Unix name that SBCL cannot reach - which I'd consider a bug. 2017-07-31T08:32:07Z Shinmera: phoe_: We have not yet established that it "cannot reach it" 2017-07-31T08:32:26Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-31T08:32:32Z phoe_: Hm. 2017-07-31T08:33:30Z Shinmera: FWIW the problem isn't in creating the pathname, but in namestringing it. 2017-07-31T08:33:39Z Shinmera: As a temporary workaround you can use uiop:native-namestring 2017-07-31T08:33:47Z phoe_: Oh. Hm. 2017-07-31T08:33:48Z Shinmera: Which will happily produce the namestring you expect. 2017-07-31T08:34:23Z schweers: um. I think I found a “workaround” which is actually better anyway 2017-07-31T08:34:42Z schweers: instead of :name "geometry.kch" I say :name "geometry" :type "kch" 2017-07-31T08:34:51Z schweers: which is as far as I know the way to go anyway 2017-07-31T08:35:28Z Shinmera: If you don't have any other dots in the name, sure. 2017-07-31T08:38:13Z schweers: ah, there, another problem solved 2017-07-31T08:40:14Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T08:41:29Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:41:53Z nobodyzxc quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-31T08:44:12Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T08:45:38Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:46:30Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-31T08:48:19Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:50:08Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:50:08Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-07-31T08:50:08Z araujo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T08:56:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T09:02:05Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T09:03:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:05:19Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T09:10:21Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:10:25Z hajovonta: hi 2017-07-31T09:10:54Z beach: Hello hajovonta. 2017-07-31T09:10:58Z rtm1046 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:11:06Z moei joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:18:19Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:20:05Z phoe_: Hey hi 2017-07-31T09:28:49Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T09:32:19Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:32:25Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:33:57Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T09:37:32Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T09:38:13Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:39:49Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:43:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:45:48Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T09:52:09Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-07-31T09:58:32Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:02:58Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:04:42Z glamas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T10:05:06Z glamas joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:05:36Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:08:27Z macdavid joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:10:25Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:10:28Z glamas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T10:11:30Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:14:17Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:14:51Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:16:19Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:19:32Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T10:22:02Z macdavid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T10:24:15Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:25:28Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:25:35Z antoszka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:25:45Z ak5 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T10:26:11Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:26:42Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:29:21Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:32:07Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:33:41Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:34:10Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T10:42:08Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T10:43:47Z Murii joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:43:52Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T10:46:34Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:49:17Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:49:31Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:52:28Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T10:54:31Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:54:35Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2017-07-31T10:54:58Z mrSpec is now known as Guest82936 2017-07-31T10:59:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:02:24Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T11:02:46Z Guest82936 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:02:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:03:10Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-31T11:03:19Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-07-31T11:06:02Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:08:21Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:11:35Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:13:47Z Arnot joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:14:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:15:46Z hexfive quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:15:51Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T11:16:42Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:20:54Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T11:24:56Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:27:40Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:29:03Z guest1123 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:29:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:29:41Z guest1123 quit (Changing host) 2017-07-31T11:29:41Z guest1123 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:30:05Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:30:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:30:22Z guest1123 left #lisp 2017-07-31T11:33:39Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:43:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:45:47Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:46:53Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T11:48:35Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T11:52:59Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:00:27Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:00:27Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:00:30Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:00:41Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:00:47Z l04m33[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:00:50Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:01:04Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:01:34Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:01:37Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:02:36Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:04:37Z TeMPOraL 2017-07-31T12:05:17Z quotation quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-31T12:06:31Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T12:06:49Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:06:51Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-31T12:07:17Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T12:13:25Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T12:14:42Z phoe_: Geez, I wish conditions were subclasses of standard-class. 2017-07-31T12:15:05Z jackdaniel: conditions aren't necessarily classes at all 2017-07-31T12:15:33Z phoe_: s/conditions/condition classes/ 2017-07-31T12:16:01Z jackdaniel: t 2017-07-31T12:16:40Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:17:11Z phoe_: Like - is there a way to define a constructor function that automatically gets called when someone goes MAKE-CONDITION? 2017-07-31T12:22:08Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T12:23:35Z phoe_: I really wonder if I should not go against the Common Lisp standard and assume that conditions are CLOS objects under the assumptions that SBCL, CCL, ECL and ABCL all seem to operate on this basis. 2017-07-31T12:24:25Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-31T12:24:26Z phoe_: Or operate they? 2017-07-31T12:24:27Z phoe_ checks 2017-07-31T12:25:59Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:27:10Z phoe_: Hah, they actually do not. 2017-07-31T12:28:40Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:29:05Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:30:51Z phoe_: Going back to conditions after being submerged in full CLOS for a moment is like a *really* cool shower. 2017-07-31T12:31:29Z whoman: oh? ive heard good things =) 2017-07-31T12:33:06Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:33:26Z phoe_: whoman: hum? 2017-07-31T12:35:56Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:37:12Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:38:12Z whoman: hi! ive heard good things of CLOS exceptions (or what they are called? havent learned them yet.) 2017-07-31T12:38:39Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:38:41Z phoe_: hey whoman 2017-07-31T12:38:48Z phoe_: you probably mean conditions 2017-07-31T12:39:01Z phoe_: and they're pretty good, the system is quite amazing 2017-07-31T12:39:43Z phoe_: though it does have its flaws like everything else, and I just ran crashed^Winto probably the biggest one of them. 2017-07-31T12:39:51Z phoe_: crashed^Wran* 2017-07-31T12:42:14Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T12:43:15Z antoszka joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:44:00Z phoe_: Out of these four, only SBCL implements conditions as slot-classes - the rest of them are standard-objects. 2017-07-31T12:44:15Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:45:22Z marvin2 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:45:24Z marvin2 quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-31T12:46:32Z whoman: phoe_, i wasnt sure if i meant conditions, because the way you typed above was that CLOS and conditions are mutually exclusive 2017-07-31T12:47:02Z whoman: phoe_, is it better as slot-classes? and i am curious about what flaw you ran/crashed into =) 2017-07-31T12:47:20Z phoe_: whoman: in a way, they are. CLOS is all about standard-objects where conditions are not standard-objects. 2017-07-31T12:47:31Z whoman currently looking at clos/eieio, common music, csound, and thus 2017-07-31T12:47:41Z phoe_: whoman: I attempted to find a way to define a constructor for a condition class. 2017-07-31T12:48:13Z phoe_: In CLOS, you (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance foo) &allow-other-keys) ...) 2017-07-31T12:48:21Z phoe_: There's no such thing for conditions. 2017-07-31T12:50:08Z whoman: hmmmm 2017-07-31T12:50:21Z k-os joined #lisp 2017-07-31T12:50:27Z whoman: there is no way to make your own class(es) which provide it ? 2017-07-31T12:50:34Z whoman: or some fset magic 2017-07-31T12:52:25Z phoe_: whoman: It's possible to create a wrapper that allows this and I was thinking of that. 2017-07-31T12:53:03Z whoman: i have yet to see impossible things through CL glasses =) 2017-07-31T12:53:32Z pjb: whoman: more meta-programming! 2017-07-31T12:53:36Z phoe_: Either to fix this issue up there and write my own constructor-calling mechanism, or deciding that it's an issue and going deeeep into the rabbit hole to try and change SBCL's behaviour and turn its conditions into standard-objects. 2017-07-31T12:54:10Z phoe_: The first option is easy. The second seems pretty damn impossible. 2017-07-31T12:54:25Z whoman: there must be a reason why SBCL does it the way it does it 2017-07-31T12:54:47Z phoe_: Yes - the standard allows it, first and foremost. 2017-07-31T12:55:09Z whoman: the reason is because the standard allows it? why is it so popular for other implementations to do it the other way ? 2017-07-31T12:55:11Z phoe_: Second, there's much less code and much more efficiency up there. Third, you can have conditions before you have CLOS. 2017-07-31T12:55:27Z phoe_: Actually, scratch about "less code". 2017-07-31T12:56:23Z whoman: why have condition before CLOS? much of non-clos is clos-ified isnt it? aka (class-of 32345) 2017-07-31T12:56:32Z phoe_: whoman: I mean, during compilation. 2017-07-31T12:56:59Z phoe_: It's a bootstrapping problem. 2017-07-31T12:57:40Z whoman: which only affects SBCL ? possibly by how its built ? 2017-07-31T12:57:55Z phoe_: Yes. 2017-07-31T12:58:12Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T13:01:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:03:37Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T13:03:49Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T13:06:23Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:11:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:15:47Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:16:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:16:48Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:17:46Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T13:18:03Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:18:31Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T13:20:33Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T13:22:22Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:22:31Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T13:22:39Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:23:48Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T13:26:44Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:27:30Z _main_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:30:52Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T13:30:57Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2017-07-31T13:34:19Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:35:14Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:35:59Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:36:00Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T13:36:05Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2017-07-31T13:36:24Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-31T13:36:32Z whoman: agh why are there so many different things of stuff 2017-07-31T13:37:11Z Xach: so many 2017-07-31T13:37:39Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T13:37:41Z whoman: hehe 2017-07-31T13:38:03Z whoman: common music, slime, clim-listener, too many repls. need a repl repl. 2017-07-31T13:38:26Z __main__ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:40:15Z varjag: there's slime-selector 2017-07-31T13:41:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T13:41:13Z whoman: hmm interesting 2017-07-31T13:41:16Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2017-07-31T13:41:28Z whoman: i think the solution is a cleaner window manager or do more things within emacs 2017-07-31T13:41:44Z whoman: ie. clim-listener runs outside of emacs 2017-07-31T13:43:03Z tfb: whoman: Concerning CLOS & conditions, I forget the history, but SBCL derives from CMUCL and CMUCL existed before CLOS really existed (and almost certainly had a condition system before it had CLOS in any reasonably native sense) 2017-07-31T13:46:29Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:48:25Z phoe_: tfb: it's very visible there - the conditions are intertwined in almost all of its codebase that is compiled before its Portable Common Loops-based CLOS is built. 2017-07-31T13:50:05Z phoe_: It's pretty impossible to compile conditions after CLOS in SBCL. The idea that I currently have is, extend the SBCL CLOS to make it capable of operating on condition classes. 2017-07-31T13:51:49Z ym joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:52:14Z Xach: As far as unportable implementation-specific code goes, that seems like one of the least interesting areas on which to work. 2017-07-31T13:52:40Z phoe_: Xach: is it? 2017-07-31T13:52:50Z Xach: To me. Everyone finds different things interesting. 2017-07-31T13:53:19Z Xach: Conditions not being CLOS were a very early "get over it, move along" thing for me. 2017-07-31T13:53:52Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T13:54:43Z Bike: it's not usually a problem, but it still comes off as a bit silly. 2017-07-31T13:56:34Z epipping joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:59:13Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T13:59:29Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:00:25Z phoe_: geez, I would need to dig into a lot lot lot of SBCL and PCL implementation details. 2017-07-31T14:00:54Z phoe_: including tough cases like a class that is a subclass of a standard-object and a condition. 2017-07-31T14:01:22Z Bike: you can probably disallow that. 2017-07-31T14:01:49Z phoe_: Bike: I could, sure thing, but if conditions are meant to be standard-objects, this cannot really be disallowed. 2017-07-31T14:02:06Z dlowe: It seems a little odd to me that you have to signal conditions and not just any data at all 2017-07-31T14:02:20Z dlowe: Why not signal strings? 2017-07-31T14:02:25Z phoe_: since you technically make a class that subclasses a standard-class and condition-class, which is meant to be a standard-class. 2017-07-31T14:02:41Z phoe_: dlowe: you need a type to be able to handle that data. 2017-07-31T14:02:51Z phoe_: well actually you don't 2017-07-31T14:02:56Z dlowe: what exactly is "that data"? 2017-07-31T14:02:58Z phoe_: but nonetheless, a type there was chosen. 2017-07-31T14:03:12Z phoe_: you could surely signal 2 and have a handler ready for accepting fixnums 2017-07-31T14:03:14Z _death: what use would signaling a string have 2017-07-31T14:03:29Z phoe_: holy cow, now that would be general 2017-07-31T14:04:29Z dlowe: I'm giving CL the benefit of the doubt here and supposing that there's some arcane reasoning. 2017-07-31T14:04:50Z dlowe: perhaps the architecture of some long-forgotten computer 2017-07-31T14:05:34Z antoszka: phoe_: PCL as in Portable Common Loops? 2017-07-31T14:05:43Z Bike: phoe_: conditions could still have their own metaclass. 2017-07-31T14:05:50Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T14:05:51Z phoe_: antoszka: yes. 2017-07-31T14:06:25Z phoe_: Bike: not in define-condition, surely. but holy cow, metaclasses for conditions. 2017-07-31T14:06:34Z Bike: doesn't sbcl already have one? 2017-07-31T14:06:41Z phoe_: I think it does. Lemme check. 2017-07-31T14:07:04Z whoman: tfb, ah i see, cool =) 2017-07-31T14:08:05Z phoe_: There are metaclasses for structs. 2017-07-31T14:08:17Z Bike: structure-class is in the standard. 2017-07-31T14:08:24Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:08:32Z whoman: curious, how come you need constructors/clos on conditions ? 2017-07-31T14:08:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:08:55Z whoman: if it is not in the standard CL spec, i am wondering how often portable developers run into this issue with sbcl 2017-07-31T14:08:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T14:09:11Z phoe_: whoman: I was trying to create a protocol condition class. Protocol, as defined by http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf 2017-07-31T14:09:18Z Bike: i've never heard of anyone wanting initialize-instance methods for conditions before 2017-07-31T14:09:28Z phoe_: Protocol classes are not meant to be instantiated directly, only their "concrete" subclasses can be. 2017-07-31T14:09:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:09:51Z phoe_: So I wanted to create a constructor for that condition, so I thought of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER. 2017-07-31T14:10:06Z phoe_: So I noticed that I can't do that since conditions aren't CLOSsy. 2017-07-31T14:10:09Z phoe_: So I'm here. 2017-07-31T14:10:51Z Denommus joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:11:34Z phoe_: ...I looked at what I wrote and I immediately thought I'm like http://i.imgur.com/t0XHtgJ.gif 2017-07-31T14:11:52Z whoman: phoe_, ohh, interesting =) 2017-07-31T14:12:35Z whoman: phoe_, (funny strangeness http://imgur.com/jfPHebYl.png) 2017-07-31T14:12:54Z phoe_: whoman: that's some buggy PDF rendering 2017-07-31T14:12:58Z phoe_: I don't see that on my computer 2017-07-31T14:13:07Z whoman: lmaooo i miss malcom in the middle, haha 2017-07-31T14:13:14Z whoman: if i have too much coffee thats how it is though ! 2017-07-31T14:13:41Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T14:13:47Z Bike: huh, a yak shaving gif 2017-07-31T14:13:48Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T14:13:52Z whoman: phoe_, i know, its firefox, just showing some neat little bug 2017-07-31T14:14:00Z phoe_: Bike: yes. 2017-07-31T14:14:20Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T14:14:21Z vaporatorius__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T14:17:27Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:22:44Z k-os: is there a way to make grovel-wrapper-files not hardcode shared library pathnames, so you could deploy your application on other computers without recreating your complete root structure 2017-07-31T14:24:11Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:25:17Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T14:25:28Z dec0n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T14:27:41Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:28:17Z k-os: specifically i use a library which uses osicat and it compiles a shared library in my quicklisp folder. I create an application with asdf und deploy it on another computer with a different directory structure. Now the problem it tries to load the library from the location it found when it compiled it. 2017-07-31T14:28:39Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T14:34:20Z phoe_: Xach: regarding ironclad: did froydnj anyhow respond? 2017-07-31T14:36:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:36:41Z Bike: i kind of thought you couldn't grovel ahead of time, because other environments might have different constants and such 2017-07-31T14:39:18Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:41:49Z Xach: phoe_: in a twitter conversation he said he was not going to do any CL project maintenance, no patches, merges, releases, nothing. 2017-07-31T14:41:57Z Xach: phoe_: this was regarding chipz and a bzip2 bug 2017-07-31T14:42:48Z phoe_: Xach: got it. 2017-07-31T14:45:36Z bjorksung left #lisp 2017-07-31T14:46:41Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:47:05Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-31T14:47:27Z phoe_: Do any popular CL systems present MAKE-CONDITION that shadows CL:MAKE-CONDITION? 2017-07-31T14:50:09Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:50:09Z l04m33[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:50:09Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:50:09Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:50:10Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:50:10Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:50:10Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:51:55Z flak joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:53:02Z jackdaniel: some lisp systems provide "advices", which allow specifying "before", "after" and "around" for ordinary functions 2017-07-31T14:53:21Z jackdaniel: but none of the foss ones afaik 2017-07-31T14:54:06Z k-os: Bike: not sure why it's done like this, it compiles a custom shared library and then loads it 2017-07-31T14:54:35Z k-os: which makes it kind of hard for me to deploy it 2017-07-31T14:55:11Z jackdaniel: path which I have taken for shared libraries was getting rid of groveller and providing separate init/terminate function called on start/stop 2017-07-31T14:55:18Z jackdaniel: which used cffi to load shared library at runtime 2017-07-31T14:55:44Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-31T14:56:33Z jackdaniel: then you don't have hardcoded paths and you may safely dump the image (but you have to call init-foo in main on image startup and stop-foo before dumping again) 2017-07-31T14:58:15Z jackdaniel: k-os: ↑ 2017-07-31T14:59:11Z k-os: jackdaniel: so I'm stuck reprogramming foreign libraries? 2017-07-31T14:59:49Z jackdaniel: well, merely loading and unloading them 2017-07-31T15:00:14Z k-os: for example just using define-foreign-library und use-foreign-library works 2017-07-31T15:00:32Z jackdaniel: yes, it's not hard 2017-07-31T15:00:34Z k-os: but using grovel with asdf kind of fucks it up 2017-07-31T15:00:53Z jackdaniel: afaik SBCL when image is dumped with shared objects loaded does the same - it unloads libraries, saves absolute pathnames and loads them on image startup 2017-07-31T15:00:56Z k-os: or it seems that way, maybe I'm missing something 2017-07-31T15:01:24Z k-os: ah okay that's whats doing it 2017-07-31T15:01:27Z jackdaniel: I think it's not ASDF at fault, just the way shared objects are handled 2017-07-31T15:01:41Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:02:03Z jackdaniel: so I have defined-foreign-library and called load/unload foreign library in start/terminate functions (as described above) 2017-07-31T15:02:08Z k-os: so if i define the library libosicat in an init it should work 2017-07-31T15:02:12Z jackdaniel: yes 2017-07-31T15:02:29Z k-os: thx 2017-07-31T15:02:48Z jackdaniel: see https://github.com/otwieracz/cl-curl/blob/master/curl.lisp 2017-07-31T15:03:06Z jackdaniel: (init-curl and terminate-curl) 2017-07-31T15:03:17Z jackdaniel: it's crucial to call terminate-curl before dumping the image 2017-07-31T15:04:10Z macdavid_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:06:43Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:06:57Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T15:08:24Z Shinmera: k-os: You might also want to look at https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy to help with foreign libraries in deployment. 2017-07-31T15:08:36Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:09:29Z macdavid_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T15:09:34Z Xof joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:13:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:17:02Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T15:24:00Z beach: phoe_: CLOS is definitely NOT only about standard objects. 2017-07-31T15:24:16Z beach: phoe_: Every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class. 2017-07-31T15:24:32Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:26:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T15:27:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:29:27Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T15:29:41Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T15:29:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:30:03Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:30:30Z tfeb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T15:32:45Z phoe_: beach: I know that. Sorry - I was simplifying things. 2017-07-31T15:37:04Z Baggers joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:39:32Z smazga joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:40:18Z phoe_: But here I have a question - can protocols contain conditions? 2017-07-31T15:40:32Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:40:37Z beach: Sure. 2017-07-31T15:41:22Z d4ryus3 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:41:24Z beach: Well, condition types, usually. Not so much the instance. 2017-07-31T15:41:35Z phoe_: Yes - sorry, that's what I meant. 2017-07-31T15:44:10Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T15:46:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:47:07Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T15:50:19Z ak5 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:52:28Z macdavid_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:53:07Z macdavid313 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T15:53:22Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:54:05Z macdavid_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T15:56:26Z macdavid313 quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T15:57:21Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-31T15:58:28Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-07-31T16:00:06Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:02:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T16:03:07Z LooneyTunes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T16:03:07Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:04:20Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:09:00Z phoe_: That was an unexpected issue 2017-07-31T16:09:44Z phoe_: My ironclad unit tests were hanging. 2017-07-31T16:09:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T16:10:18Z phoe_: Like, for password objects. 2017-07-31T16:11:07Z phoe_: It turned out that /dev/random was blocking because my Linux box had not enough entropy. 2017-07-31T16:11:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:14:10Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-31T16:14:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T16:16:14Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:17:49Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-31T16:20:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:22:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:22:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-31T16:22:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:24:08Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:39:13Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:40:34Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-31T16:41:48Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:42:35Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:42:54Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T16:43:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T16:45:11Z mwsb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:45:35Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T16:48:49Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T16:52:32Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T16:53:07Z k-os: jackdaniel: what's the reason for closing the library when exiting the application? 2017-07-31T16:53:17Z k-os: or is it purely for the creation of the executable? 2017-07-31T16:53:36Z big_num joined #lisp 2017-07-31T16:55:14Z Shinmera: If the library is open while you dump, it might try to load it from the same location it loaded it from on your host. 2017-07-31T16:55:34Z Shinmera: Rather than searching for it again. 2017-07-31T16:55:47Z whoman: phoe_, ehhe 2017-07-31T17:01:38Z damke joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:01:46Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-31T17:02:47Z k-os: Shinmera: thanks 2017-07-31T17:03:18Z Shinmera: I've also had cases where it just outright segfaulted/core dumped if I didn't close them. 2017-07-31T17:03:29Z Shinmera: So there's probably other shenanigans going on too 2017-07-31T17:03:42Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T17:06:47Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T17:11:30Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:12:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T17:14:51Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:18:06Z k-os: is there a way to get hold of the generated library to close it 2017-07-31T17:18:49Z phoe: k-os: there is. 2017-07-31T17:19:02Z phoe: some special variable inside CFFI package 2017-07-31T17:19:42Z k-os: phoe: yes thanks 2017-07-31T17:20:16Z phoe: wait, no 2017-07-31T17:20:21Z phoe: #'CFFI:LIST-FOREIGN-LIBRARIES 2017-07-31T17:20:23Z phoe: actually a function 2017-07-31T17:20:53Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T17:24:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T17:25:21Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:29:10Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T17:29:43Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T17:30:27Z whartung joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:33:18Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:38:45Z k-os: it's alright i found out that it's using keywords instead of symbols 2017-07-31T17:39:01Z k-os: but my epilogue-code doesn't seem to run 2017-07-31T17:40:28Z epipping quit 2017-07-31T17:42:50Z k-os: hmm is epilogue-code ecl specific 2017-07-31T17:48:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:50:39Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:52:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T17:53:02Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:53:23Z shrdlu68: Good evening #lisp! Been a while. 2017-07-31T17:53:26Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T17:53:44Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2017-07-31T17:54:18Z phoe: shrdlu68: hey! 2017-07-31T17:54:23Z phoe: How you been? 2017-07-31T17:54:40Z shrdlu68: phoe: Great, doing good, you? 2017-07-31T17:56:03Z phoe: shrdlu68: similar. Life, had some time for Lisp as of the last few days. 2017-07-31T17:57:20Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T18:02:59Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2017-07-31T18:05:30Z shrdlu68: Cool. Lemme check out /r/lisp and catch up with what's going on. 2017-07-31T18:08:35Z shrdlu68: Lots of bounties in McCLIM... 2017-07-31T18:08:47Z k-os: hmm i hope it's alright to setf *image-postlude* 2017-07-31T18:09:25Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:12:21Z tfeb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T18:12:55Z jackdaniel: yeah, we hope one of you will be *the* one to solve them :-) 2017-07-31T18:14:29Z whoman: ouu bounties 2017-07-31T18:19:56Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:21:57Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T18:22:31Z jackdaniel: we have active bounties worth $1700 atm 2017-07-31T18:23:03Z jackdaniel: (https://www.bountysource.com/teams/mcclim/bounties) 2017-07-31T18:23:10Z phoe quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-31T18:23:22Z JuanDaugherty: a clueful sum 2017-07-31T18:24:08Z drmeister: Hi lispers - does anyone use "gprof" much on linux? 2017-07-31T18:24:51Z drmeister: I'm setting up Clasp to generate gprof compatible code (both Common Lisp and C++) and I'd love to chat with someone who uses it to figure out what I can do with it. 2017-07-31T18:25:14Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T18:31:04Z Sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-31T18:31:23Z https_GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:32:12Z https_GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-07-31T18:33:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:34:29Z xantoz joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:35:39Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:35:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:37:28Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T18:38:24Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:38:54Z shka_: drmeister: gprof as statistical profiler? 2017-07-31T18:39:40Z drmeister: I guess so - gprof as gprof - whatever it is. I'm reading up on gprof and flame graphs now. 2017-07-31T18:39:48Z shka_: right 2017-07-31T18:40:13Z shka_: i use perf most of the time with C++ which is linux statistical profiler 2017-07-31T18:40:46Z shka_: with lisp, i'm using sbcl both profilers 2017-07-31T18:41:02Z k-os quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T18:44:42Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T18:45:50Z phoe_: Which emacs distribution should I use for OS X? 2017-07-31T18:48:02Z Xach: phoe_: I use emacs sources directly. 2017-07-31T18:48:13Z Shinmera: phoe_: Portacle works fine :^) 2017-07-31T18:48:19Z Xach: phoe_: It is mostly because I really like all my emacses to act the same. 2017-07-31T18:48:30Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T18:48:44Z Shinmera: Otherwise https://emacsformacosx.com/ works fine too. 2017-07-31T18:48:59Z shka_: phoe_: whatever roswell gives you? 2017-07-31T18:49:32Z phoe_: I was wondering - emacs or aquamacs, actually 2017-07-31T18:49:50Z phoe_: Shinmera: did it finally become officially stable!? 2017-07-31T18:50:07Z Shinmera: phoe_: Not yet, unfortunately 2017-07-31T18:50:09Z tonton quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-31T18:50:22Z Shinmera: Some minor issues, and a weird crash on Fedora are keeping it. 2017-07-31T18:50:36Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:51:19Z phoe_: Okay. Time to lispify my hackintosh. 2017-07-31T18:52:10Z tonton joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:54:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T18:55:08Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:03:16Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:05:27Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:11:47Z drmeister: shka: Thanks - flame graphs with gprof look fantastic. http://www.brendangregg.com/flamegraphs.html 2017-07-31T19:12:07Z drmeister: Clasp needs to profile C++ code alongside Common Lisp code. 2017-07-31T19:12:38Z phoe_: What is the command to run slime with a custom path to Lisp binary? 2017-07-31T19:13:31Z Xach: phoe_: C-u M-x slime is one option 2017-07-31T19:14:34Z shka_: drmeister: i never actually managed to properly run flamegraphs with perf 2017-07-31T19:14:38Z Shinmera: phoe_: I use this bit in my config to define all the implementations I have. https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-lisp.el#L56 2017-07-31T19:14:40Z shka_: does it work ok with gprof? 2017-07-31T19:14:46Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:27:00Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:31:22Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:33:05Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:33:47Z rtm1046 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T19:34:20Z drmeister: shka: I'm not sure yet - I'm still messing around with generating an executable that supports gprof profiling. 2017-07-31T19:34:46Z drmeister: I want to profile the C++ code and Common Lisp code together. 2017-07-31T19:34:56Z drmeister: The C++ code is easy - compile and link with "-pg". 2017-07-31T19:35:23Z drmeister: The Common Lisp code I had to modify the compiler to attach a property to each function "counting-function" = "mcount". 2017-07-31T19:35:54Z drmeister: Then when llvm links and optimizes the llvm-ir it inserts a call to "mcount" at the start of every function. 2017-07-31T19:38:28Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:39:55Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:40:10Z drmeister: I link that with the C++ llvm-ir and tell the linker to link that to support gprof. 2017-07-31T19:40:39Z drmeister: I get a profiling version of my executable - it generates a gmon.out file when it exits normally. 2017-07-31T19:41:38Z drmeister: But when I run gprof on the executable it gives me 5 "BFD: Dwarf Error: mangled line number section (bad file number)." errors and appears to hang (although the process has 100% CPU utilization by gprof). 2017-07-31T19:41:57Z drmeister: I'm going to sit on my hands and see if it does anything. 2017-07-31T19:42:03Z Xach: :( poor hands 2017-07-31T19:42:05Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:42:17Z mazoe joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:42:58Z drmeister: I thought ECL users might do similar things. 2017-07-31T19:43:37Z mazoe quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T19:43:43Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:45:39Z drmeister: Grrr - it's like the Universe is conspiring against me to prevent me from profiling properly. 2017-07-31T19:45:51Z mazoe joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:46:25Z Shinmera: Might as well post this here too: mood, gingerale, and I's game for Ludum Dare 39 is done: https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/39/rush 2017-07-31T19:47:41Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:48:08Z drmeister: Ok - scratch that - it came back and is trying to print billions of backtraces as text in an emacs shell. 2017-07-31T19:49:44Z phoe_: You don't want it to do that. 2017-07-31T19:51:20Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T19:51:31Z drcode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T19:52:17Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:52:46Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:56:35Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:57:16Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:58:48Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T19:59:02Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T19:59:27Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:59:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T19:59:33Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T20:00:11Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:00:45Z grublet joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:00:49Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T20:01:29Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:02:07Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T20:02:46Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:03:12Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T20:03:48Z ted_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:04:44Z flak quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-07-31T20:05:12Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T20:05:40Z ted_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T20:06:28Z phinxy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T20:07:34Z warweasle quit (Quit: home) 2017-07-31T20:12:50Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:17:58Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-31T20:23:38Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:23:47Z gko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T20:25:39Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T20:30:28Z gko joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:43:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:43:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-07-31T20:43:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:44:43Z larme joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:48:06Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:52:43Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:56:22Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2017-07-31T20:59:27Z specbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T21:00:34Z specbot joined #lisp 2017-07-31T21:02:08Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T21:08:45Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-07-31T21:11:58Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2017-07-31T21:17:30Z mazoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T21:17:30Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T21:21:19Z fkac joined #lisp 2017-07-31T21:27:22Z nydel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T21:28:16Z |gaz| quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T21:30:22Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T21:33:11Z krasnal__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-31T21:37:10Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-31T21:37:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-07-31T21:49:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T21:53:55Z pmc joined #lisp 2017-07-31T21:55:51Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-07-31T21:59:33Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-31T22:02:51Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:02:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T22:07:06Z big_num left #lisp 2017-07-31T22:10:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:18:07Z trocado joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:19:41Z pdw joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:24:36Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2017-07-31T22:30:40Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-31T22:31:12Z pdw left #lisp 2017-07-31T22:36:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T22:38:37Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-31T22:41:57Z safe joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:43:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:44:06Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:47:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T22:48:04Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:53:40Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-07-31T22:55:04Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-31T22:56:59Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-07-31T23:00:20Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-31T23:00:59Z cromachina joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:01:15Z Baggers left #lisp 2017-07-31T23:04:51Z cyberlard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-31T23:05:24Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:05:28Z cyberlard quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T23:06:22Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:08:54Z wadadli_ joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:09:47Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-31T23:10:04Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-31T23:15:52Z https_GK1wmSU joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:16:23Z https_GK1wmSU left #lisp 2017-07-31T23:18:50Z tfeb joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:21:25Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-31T23:24:31Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-07-31T23:29:08Z wadadli is now known as Guest24722 2017-07-31T23:29:09Z wadadli_ is now known as wadadli 2017-07-31T23:30:24Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-31T23:39:07Z Achylles joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:39:53Z Achylles: Why this function does not evaluate 3? ( i f ( l i s t p 1) (+ 1 2 ) ( + 3 4)) 2017-07-31T23:40:23Z Bike: (if (listp 1) (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4))? because 1 is not a list. 2017-07-31T23:40:25Z Achylles: (if (listp 1) is not true? 2017-07-31T23:40:36Z Bike: it's a number. 2017-07-31T23:40:53Z aeth: numbers are only lists in hypothetical, slow constructions of numbers in theoretical discussions 2017-07-31T23:41:07Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:41:15Z jameser quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-31T23:41:31Z aeth: where zero is (list) and one is (list zero) and two is (list zero one)... etc. CL does not work like this 2017-07-31T23:42:35Z Achylles: So it means that -> if 1 is a list then... 2017-07-31T23:42:47Z Achylles: But, 1 is not a list 2017-07-31T23:43:09Z Bike: yeah, so it goes to the alternate clause, (+ 3 4), so it should return 7. 2017-07-31T23:43:26Z mwsb is now known as chu 2017-07-31T23:43:27Z Achylles: thx... 2017-07-31T23:43:49Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-07-31T23:44:10Z Achylles: I am starting in lisp now... with a good book -> Ansi common lisp 2017-07-31T23:45:19Z phoe_: it's a good one, yes. 2017-07-31T23:45:32Z phoe_: Achylles: have you been programming before? 2017-07-31T23:45:55Z brendos joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:46:31Z Achylles: I learned a bit o python, but got somewhat fed up with that. Then tried Clojure and did not like because of dependencies and such. Then I thought: I use emacs, so I have to learn lisp... 2017-07-31T23:47:09Z Achylles: I want to learn a functional language... 2017-07-31T23:47:44Z phoe_: Common Lisp isn't really functional. It's multi-paradigm. 2017-07-31T23:48:01Z phoe_: Meaning that you can write functional code in it, but it's not the only Lisp that you will ever see. Or, possibly, use. 2017-07-31T23:48:18Z Achylles: I thing it is better and easier for me to learn, before messing up with java, and imperative ones... 2017-07-31T23:48:37Z phoe_: Lisp can be object-oriented and imperative, too. 2017-07-31T23:48:55Z phoe_: (And it's pretty good at it, too.) 2017-07-31T23:49:06Z aeth: Or declarative that's not functional 2017-07-31T23:49:14Z Achylles: anyway, I got attracted by it... 2017-07-31T23:49:24Z phoe_: I need to run to sleep now - see you later! 2017-07-31T23:49:40Z Achylles: see you. thx... 2017-07-31T23:49:43Z aeth: It's easy to FP in CL, especially with alexandria (e.g. its curry and rcurry) 2017-07-31T23:50:07Z aeth: It's not going to be the most efficient way to write CL, though. CL lacks optimizations that functional-first languages might have. 2017-07-31T23:50:22Z aeth: Efficient CL looks relatively like C. 2017-07-31T23:50:46Z Bike: that's pessimistic. 2017-07-31T23:51:06Z Achylles: Am I in the right track? 2017-07-31T23:51:18Z Achylles: Learning lisp? 2017-07-31T23:51:32Z Bike: sure, that book is fine i guess, and if you have problems you can ask us stuff. 2017-07-31T23:52:18Z Achylles: I also tried Scala and liked that as well, but bumping into this book was a real joy... 2017-07-31T23:52:32Z Achylles: I will learn Scala after lisp... 2017-07-31T23:52:51Z Achylles: I mean the other way round... 2017-07-31T23:52:59Z Achylles: lisp -> scala 2017-07-31T23:59:26Z jamtho joined #lisp 2017-07-31T23:59:36Z Achylles: (list (and ( listp 3) t ) (+ 1 2)) -> does it mean that "listp 3" is not true -> then it evaluates NIL and 3? This is what the clisp prompt shows... 2017-07-31T23:59:38Z tetero: Scala tries to introduce some concepts while not alienating corporate java devs