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2017-06-16T23:58:17Z krwq: hello, what was that website with current recommendations for libraries? specifically looking for something which would automatically replicate selected objects to the database and restore on start
2017-06-16T23:59:02Z flavio81: you mean an object relational mapper, ORM ?
2017-06-16T23:59:12Z flavio81: i don't understand what do you mean with "restore on start"
2017-06-17T00:02:14Z flavio81: i'm very new to the CL ecosystem to recommend libraries, but two more or less recent ORMs are:
2017-06-17T00:02:20Z flavio81: https://github.com/fukamachi/mito
2017-06-17T00:02:25Z flavio81: https://github.com/eudoxia0/crane
2017-06-17T00:02:41Z krwq: i just want to i.e. serialize list of some object to a database so that i can i.e. do (def-permanent-var *foo* (first-time-initialize)) and it would always save current state on change and restore same values when i restart my lisp - i never did much with databases
2017-06-17T00:03:22Z flavio81: with an ORM what you have is objects that have a correspondence with a table on a database, and you can save and load these objects to/from the database
2017-06-17T00:03:41Z flavio81: but it seems that what you want is to be able to save ANY object. That is "serialization"
2017-06-17T00:03:42Z krwq: that sounds perfect, will look at those, thanks flavio81!
2017-06-17T00:04:11Z krwq: flavio81: let's say they have some constraints so that they can be put into the db
2017-06-17T00:04:21Z flavio81: note that if you want to be able to save ANY object then what you want is a library for serialization, not an ORM
2017-06-17T00:04:25Z krwq: db is a serialization in a sense i guess
2017-06-17T00:04:42Z flavio81: a serialization library turns that object into binary (or text) form that then can be stored in a file, a table column, etc
2017-06-17T00:04:56Z krwq: flavio81: shouldn't there be genreic implementation and i could write my method to help it serialize to db?
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2017-06-17T00:05:06Z flavio81: while what an ORM does is to let you have an Object class that is more or less a mirror image of a database table
2017-06-17T00:05:33Z krwq: flavio81: I think that would do, I wanted to learn databases a little bit with lisp
2017-06-17T00:05:54Z flavio81: krwq: you can always use SQL directly...
2017-06-17T00:06:06Z krwq: flavio81: no thanks :P
2017-06-17T00:06:18Z flavio81: yes, thanks!
2017-06-17T00:06:22Z flavio81: take a look at this library:
2017-06-17T00:06:22Z flavio81: https://github.com/fukamachi/sxql
2017-06-17T00:06:45Z flavio81: with this you can create SQL with Lisp code. Then you can use this SQL to 'talk' directly to a database using a library like Postmodern:
2017-06-17T00:06:45Z krwq: I already played with it a little but wanted something more high level
2017-06-17T00:06:48Z pjb: krwq: find libraries at http://cliki.net
2017-06-17T00:07:00Z krwq: brb
2017-06-17T00:07:03Z flavio81: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern
2017-06-17T00:07:20Z pjb: krwq: eg. http://cliki.net/site/search?query=serialize
2017-06-17T00:07:29Z flavio81: pjb: who mantains Cliki ?
2017-06-17T00:07:46Z pjb: you.
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2017-06-17T00:07:52Z flavio81: lol ... !! i know it's a wiki
2017-06-17T00:07:56Z flavio81: but who is in charge of the project
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2017-06-17T00:09:02Z pjb: flavio81: Drew Crampsie owns the domain.
2017-06-17T00:09:47Z pjb: cliki is on github: https://github.com/archimag/cliki2
2017-06-17T00:09:55Z pjb: so I guess, PR
2017-06-17T00:10:22Z pjb: and https://github.com/archimag/cliki2/network/members
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2017-06-17T00:11:16Z flavio81: thanks pjb !
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2017-06-17T00:19:35Z krwq: ok, back, thanks pjb and flavio81
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2017-06-17T00:19:58Z krwq: i didn't know cliki is on github
2017-06-17T00:21:53Z krwq: im slightly confused with this connect-toplevel in cl-dbi/datfly/mito, are they interchaangable? i currently use version from datafly, can i replace that safely with mito:connect-toplevel? why are there 3 versions?
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2017-06-17T00:27:49Z krwq: mito version seems to be forwarding to cl-dbi but datafly remains a mystery to me
2017-06-17T00:28:08Z flavio81: mito uses cl-dbi
2017-06-17T00:28:53Z flavio81: datafly too
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2017-06-17T00:29:46Z krwq: datafly seems to have some more logic than that
2017-06-17T00:29:52Z flavio81: but i don't understand the question, because mito is an ORM, and datafly is just a DB access library. they are different things
2017-06-17T00:30:43Z krwq: datafly is an implemetation of db which i wanted to use
2017-06-17T00:32:06Z flavio81: on datafly, connect-toplevel is defined by datafly itself
2017-06-17T00:32:06Z flavio81: https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly/blob/master/src/db.lisp
2017-06-17T00:33:21Z flavio81: on mito, it is here
2017-06-17T00:33:22Z flavio81: https://github.com/fukamachi/mito/blob/master/src/core/connection.lisp
2017-06-17T00:33:25Z krwq: when i simply depend on datafly system do i need do anything special to make it work with cl-dbi or it autoregisters some keyword for connect-toplevel
2017-06-17T00:33:41Z flavio81: defined there, basically it establishes directly a connection using dbi
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2017-06-17T00:34:23Z flavio81: krwq: yes, but datafly is a traditional database access library (you use SQL to talk to the db), while mito is an ORM (Object-Relational Mapper)
2017-06-17T00:35:20Z krwq: flavio81: so in my app i only depend on mito and i.e. (connect-toplevel :sqlite3 ...
2017-06-17T00:37:12Z krwq: it's not clear to me how do i use mito with specific db implementation
2017-06-17T00:37:52Z krwq: the example has a keyword as a first argument, but i.e. how do i add my own implementation so it works with it? wrap everything?
2017-06-17T00:39:08Z krwq: actually i want to use sqlite for now so whatever :P
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2017-06-17T00:49:16Z flavio81: cl-dbi works with sqlite3 as well
2017-06-17T00:49:23Z flavio81: so mito and the other one also work with sqlite3
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2017-06-17T04:22:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-17T04:37:47Z vtomole: Hey, how's it going beach?
2017-06-17T04:38:12Z beach: vtomole: Fine, thanks!  And you?
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2017-06-17T04:39:07Z vtomole: Not bad for a friday night.
2017-06-17T04:41:07Z vtomole: beach: 6:40 AM In France? Do you go to bed early?
2017-06-17T04:41:17Z beach: I do, yes.
2017-06-17T04:42:06Z vtomole: Man. I think i'm physically incapable of doing that ;D
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2017-06-17T04:42:26Z beach: It's a genetic defect in my family.
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2017-06-17T04:45:49Z vtomole: So it doesn't matter what time you go to bed, you always wake up early?
2017-06-17T04:45:58Z beach: Pretty much.
2017-06-17T04:46:00Z krwq: i have a package which is a metapackage for my other packages, is there some easy way to make it such that I can use stuff from other packages before explicitly defining them before (i.e. i'd like to use a:foo in package b and b:bar in package a)
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2017-06-17T04:46:24Z krwq: they are all in the same system
2017-06-17T04:47:14Z krwq: i started with reordering but that started getting tedious
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2017-06-17T07:50:09Z AndChat393204: Hi everyone
2017-06-17T07:50:30Z beach: Hello AndChat393204.
2017-06-17T07:54:20Z AndChat393204: Do you write code with lisp?
2017-06-17T07:54:28Z beach: I do, yes.
2017-06-17T07:54:39Z beach: Most people here in #lisp do.
2017-06-17T07:55:07Z White_Flame: Yes, literally, and yes figuratively. :)
2017-06-17T07:55:23Z White_Flame: (ie, I write lisp code, and my lisp writes code, too :) )
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2017-06-17T07:59:47Z AndChat393204: I'm thriving through ANSI common lisp. With sbcl
2017-06-17T08:00:14Z beach: A reasonable choice.
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2017-06-17T08:02:39Z beach: Paul Graham's style is a bit quirky, but otherwise, it's a good book.
2017-06-17T08:02:44Z AndChat393204: In case of some difficulty we can discuss em here?
2017-06-17T08:02:50Z beach: Sure.
2017-06-17T08:03:22Z AndChat393204: I begin to like it:)
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2017-06-17T09:39:38Z phoe: AndChat393204: Graham's ANSI CL was the first Lisp book that I read
2017-06-17T09:40:42Z phoe: and I like it as a reading and learning material despite the fact Graham's opinions on a few things (like CLOS) seem pretty unfounded nowadays
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2017-06-17T09:44:19Z AndChat393204: I like about it that there're  solutions to the tasks over internet. Cause for now I choose right algorithms but cannot implement them correctly
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2017-06-17T09:51:23Z KZiemian: phoe: how you are going>
2017-06-17T09:51:29Z KZiemian: phoe: *?
2017-06-17T09:54:53Z _death: I wouldn't go by that approach.. other people's solutions are only useful once you solved it yourself.. (loop until (solvedp) do (implement (think (read))))
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2017-06-17T09:59:47Z AndChat393204: I mean that I look in the solutions whether to compare with my solution​ or in case I'm stuck
2017-06-17T10:02:29Z _death: in actuality it's sometimes (loop until (solvedp) do (think (implement (read)))), but that's OK too
2017-06-17T10:03:02Z _death: as long as there's a call to THINK
2017-06-17T10:03:03Z phoe: KZiemian: todday is busy for me, arrrgh - but I will try to steal an hour from other stuff
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2017-06-17T10:04:34Z AndChat393204:  _death nice prog I'll try to remember it
2017-06-17T10:05:09Z _death: AndChat393204: I'm saying that you should hold yourself from looking at solutions when you're stuck.. disconnect from the internet if necessary
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2017-06-17T10:08:16Z _death: AndChat393204: with every problem solved you should gain confidence that you can solve the next, even if it takes a while
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2017-06-17T10:11:17Z KZiemian: I search a problem or problem to try my CL in practices
2017-06-17T10:11:36Z KZiemian: I work on CL Ultra Spec
2017-06-17T10:12:01Z KZiemian: but I am stuck in technical issue of TeX and page formating
2017-06-17T10:12:28Z KZiemian: so now I have a time to someting else
2017-06-17T10:12:38Z KZiemian: does anyone have a suggestion?
2017-06-17T10:12:58Z AndChat393204: _death: generally you right.
2017-06-17T10:15:08Z _death: KZiemian: there was this: https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1
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2017-06-17T10:17:21Z _death: it's a bit funny that there are issues for SHL and SAL.. SAL is just a synonym for SHL
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2017-06-17T10:25:24Z KZiemian: _death: thank you, I try to figure out what is to do
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2017-06-17T11:35:23Z KZiemian: say you letter:)
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2017-06-17T16:23:09Z dim: CL, save-lisp-and-die, threads, run-time errors, handling them without user input, oh my!
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2017-06-17T16:27:19Z dim: of course the error handling in slime is ok for my developpers need, and the debugger is popped when I need it to, but image based deployments won't behave...
2017-06-17T16:28:00Z dim: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread; then it's waiting for user input but will only move on ^C
2017-06-17T16:33:09Z scymtym: dim: if this is SBCL and the error is in a non-foreground thread, try SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND
2017-06-17T16:36:07Z dim: sbcl yes, and non-foreground yes
2017-06-17T16:36:55Z dim: ok in my case I was signaling a condition in a place where I didn't actually need to, it seems
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2017-06-17T16:40:26Z dim: mmm, only in the simplest case, back to drawing board
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2017-06-17T16:43:22Z dim: scymtym: it shouldn't end up at the debugger in my case
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2017-06-17T16:44:46Z scymtym: dim: ok, the release-foreground thing should not be needed then
2017-06-17T16:45:20Z dim: well I think it is, the behavior matches what I'm reading about sb-thread:get-foreground blocking etc
2017-06-17T16:45:32Z dim: but I don't understand why the debugger is required here
2017-06-17T16:46:07Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/common/methods.lisp#L156
2017-06-17T16:46:26Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/common/methods.lisp#L156 contains a full self-contained case to reproduce
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2017-06-17T16:47:11Z dim: anyways, trying to get my head around what's happening
2017-06-17T16:57:09Z dim: seems that it works as intended with my own condition rather than error
2017-06-17T16:57:31Z dim: also I can handle it a special way (do nothing other than interrupting the control flow)
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2017-06-17T17:01:36Z dim: seems I got it ;-)
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2017-06-17T17:05:10Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/e11ccf7bb74837a5b6210af33445f49a59a95bde
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2017-06-18T09:35:02Z sebras: I'm back, still translating clisp to Swedish, now I stumbled upon this string "The only allowed keyword~[s are~; is~:;s are~] ~{~S~#[~; and ~S~:;, ~]~}." and I'm trying to understand how this formatting works.
2017-06-18T09:35:26Z sebras: it seems like it might format "keywords are" and "keyword is"
2017-06-18T09:35:39Z sebras: what is the last claus inte first [] tough?
2017-06-18T09:44:41Z _death: clhs ~[
2017-06-18T09:44:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm
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2017-06-18T09:48:32Z sebras: specbot _death: thanks to you both.
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2017-06-18T14:52:01Z shka: hey, how can i obtain arglist of function without swank?
2017-06-18T14:52:47Z Bike: usually the implementation has some kind of hook for it, but i don't think there's a portability interface (other than the one in swank)
2017-06-18T14:53:12Z Bike: on sbcl i think it would be sb-introspect:function-lambda-list
2017-06-18T14:53:19Z shka: ok, thanks
2017-06-18T14:53:33Z shka: i guess i will stick to swank for now
2017-06-18T14:53:52Z Bike: what is it that you're doing? making your own development environment?
2017-06-18T14:54:18Z shka: heh, no
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2017-06-18T14:54:25Z shka: just documentation generator
2017-06-18T14:54:32Z shka: sort of
2017-06-18T14:54:49Z shka: document preparation / documentation generator
2017-06-18T14:54:59Z shka: that would be more accurate
2017-06-18T14:55:05Z Bike: ah.
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2017-06-18T14:57:23Z shka: but the second thing would be useful now, when neovim seems to be suitable
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2017-06-18T15:26:29Z phoe: shka: https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-arguments/
2017-06-18T15:26:37Z phoe: it falls back to swank whenever it doesn't know what to do.
2017-06-18T15:26:40Z shka: thnx
2017-06-18T15:26:46Z shka: that's what i needed
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2017-06-18T20:00:17Z learning_: Can anyone help me hide the welcome text for CCL ("Welcome to Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.11-r16635  (DarwinX8632)!")
2017-06-18T20:00:26Z learning_: i looked at the ccl command line args
2017-06-18T20:00:36Z learning_: and googled, but not sure that im searching the right terms
2017-06-18T20:01:34Z Bike: does --quiet do it?
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2017-06-18T20:03:10Z learning_: no
2017-06-18T20:03:30Z Bike: well, it says it won't do anything for normal interactive use
2017-06-18T20:04:31Z learning_: i think i got around it by clearing the terminal screen one time. gonna try that.
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2017-06-18T20:08:09Z learning_: nah i was wrong
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2017-06-18T20:23:40Z deba5e12: hey, I'm having a weird little issue with quicklisp. there's one particular project in my ~/quicklisp/local-projects directory that it refuses to load, saying that no such package is found. but if I enter (load path-to-that-projects-asd-file) in the slime repl and then try again, it works fine. any ideas on why quicklisp might be having trouble finding this package?
2017-06-18T20:23:53Z deba5e12: s/package/system/
2017-06-18T20:24:32Z loke___: deba5e12: Try deleting the file ‘system-index.txt’.
2017-06-18T20:24:42Z deba5e12: ah, thanks.
2017-06-18T20:25:42Z deba5e12: yup, it was missing from that list. thanks again.
2017-06-18T20:25:50Z Bike: isn't the "correct" thing (ql:register-local-projects)
2017-06-18T20:26:03Z loke___: Bike: if you delete the file, that will happen
2017-06-18T20:26:21Z Bike: right
2017-06-18T20:26:21Z loke___: Bike: also, deleting the file solves any ssue that is related to the file being corrupted.
2017-06-18T20:26:22Z deba5e12: yup, that's exactly what did happen
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2017-06-18T20:45:49Z learning_: i can probably hook into one of the output streams and do it that way
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2017-06-18T20:50:27Z pjb: learning_: grep for the string in the sources of ccl; patch the function that issues it.
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2017-06-18T20:51:01Z learning_: smart
2017-06-18T20:51:42Z pjb: and save an executable image to use instead of ccl of course.
2017-06-18T20:53:05Z pjb: You can also use: ccl --no-init --batch --quiet
2017-06-18T20:53:34Z pjb: But some other behavior change too (no P in the REPL, you need more flushing, and it quits only on EOF).
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2017-06-18T21:24:15Z Grue``: what does it mean Couldn't write to #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM ...>: Access is denied?
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2017-06-18T21:26:09Z Bike: you don't have write permission, i guess?
2017-06-18T21:29:50Z Grue``: I'm getting this only occasionally. I'm having a Bad Request error when making a http request in another thread, then when I try to to do the same request in the REPL thread, first I'm getting this "Access is denied" error, and then the second request works successfully
2017-06-18T21:30:27Z Grue``: maybe because it reuses a connection created in another thread or something
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2017-06-18T22:55:54Z malice`: Hi! I am trying to use inferior-shell's pipe, but I have some problem with paths. Here is my code: http://ix.io/xEs
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2017-06-18T22:56:13Z malice`: The problem is that when I use cat or try to call a file, the program complains that it can't find such file or directory
2017-06-18T22:56:37Z malice`: but I made sure that there is no typo there as copying and pasting the exact path into shell gives me a correct behaviour
2017-06-18T22:57:21Z malice`: Why isn't inferior-shell working like a shell does?
2017-06-18T22:58:29Z malice`: A smaller example that fails too: http://ix.io/xEt
2017-06-18T22:59:08Z deba5e12: it's probably because lisp doesn't know how to expand '~'
2017-06-18T22:59:19Z deba5e12: try it with the full, unabbreviated path
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2017-06-18T23:00:57Z malice`: Damn it. Right. I thought that shell did it by default, but turns out I was wrong.
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2017-06-18T23:01:01Z malice`: Thank you deba5e12
2017-06-18T23:01:06Z deba5e12: no problem!
2017-06-18T23:01:47Z malice`: btw. any idea why this tr is not working?
2017-06-18T23:01:58Z malice`: I translated the bash pipe into the inferior-shell pipe
2017-06-18T23:02:14Z deba5e12: no idea. I'm playing with it right now in my repl. I haven't actually used inferior-shell before.
2017-06-18T23:02:29Z malice`: and when I run the code in bash, the "tr '\r\n' ' '" command translates newline into space
2017-06-18T23:02:33Z malice`: which is what I want
2017-06-18T23:02:41Z malice`: but I've noticed that it does not work in inferior-shell
2017-06-18T23:03:10Z malice`: (previously I've tried a bare "run" with pipes hard-coded as string, and the code worked the same as the pipe version I have now - spills output, but does not translate newline into space)
2017-06-18T23:03:22Z deba5e12: my first guess would be that it's some escape character trickery. (only because that's one of the most bug-prone bits of anything having to do with any shell, ever)
2017-06-18T23:03:55Z malice`: oh
2017-06-18T23:03:58Z malice`: wait
2017-06-18T23:04:07Z deba5e12: try it with "\\n"
2017-06-18T23:04:17Z malice`: bingo!
2017-06-18T23:04:20Z deba5e12: :)
2017-06-18T23:04:25Z malice`: I always forget about these double-escaped \...
2017-06-18T23:04:41Z malice`: Wish we didn't have it.
2017-06-18T23:04:51Z deba5e12: It's always guesswork for me, when it comes to counting backslashes.
2017-06-18T23:04:58Z malice`: but thanks, deba5e12
2017-06-18T23:05:02Z deba5e12: happy to help!
2017-06-18T23:05:13Z malice`: I feel a bit dumb I didn't found these out, seem to be a bit... trivial
2017-06-18T23:05:44Z deba5e12: meh, it's the sort of thing that's tripped me up plenty in the past, which is why I thought of it right away
2017-06-18T23:06:00Z deba5e12: both of those things, actually.
2017-06-18T23:06:55Z malice`: I've also faced the problem with "\\" but I guess it wasn't enough
2017-06-18T23:07:07Z malice`: Anyway thanks for help, much appreciated.
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2017-06-19T03:41:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-19T03:42:02Z grublet: yo
2017-06-19T03:45:00Z slyrus: morning beach
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2017-06-20T01:11:32Z nyef``: In the unlikely event that I COMPILE-FILE something that has a compile-time effect of setting *STANDARD-OUTPUT* to a different stream, would the result have an impact on the calling environment? (That is, can I reasonably expect COMPILE-FILE to not rebind *STANDARD-OUTPUT* or otherwise alter the identity of its value?)
2017-06-20T01:11:49Z nyef``: If so, why so? If not, why not?
2017-06-20T01:12:59Z Bike: So, wait, you mean you compile-file something that sets *s-o* at compile time, and you're wondering if, after compile file returns, s-o will still be that value?
2017-06-20T01:13:06Z nyef``: Yes.
2017-06-20T01:13:32Z nyef``: More the point, though, is the rational for *why* this would or would not be the case.
2017-06-20T01:13:39Z nyef``: s/rational/rationale/
2017-06-20T01:14:49Z nyef``: I'm not arguing that it's a particularly intelligent thing to do, btw. I did say that it would be unlikely. But the question of what the semantics are and why is of more interest.
2017-06-20T01:15:09Z Bike: readtable and package are both specifically rebound by compile-file, and it says so both on the pages for the variable and the page for compile-file. s-o doesn't have anything like that.
2017-06-20T01:15:13Z Bike: but i'd say it's not defined.
2017-06-20T01:15:26Z nyef``: Hrm.
2017-06-20T01:16:06Z nyef``: Why "not defined" as opposed to "is neither rebound nor has its value overwritten"?
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2017-06-20T01:17:38Z Bike: cos it doesn't say either way, natch.
2017-06-20T01:17:41Z nyef``: Alternately, how does this differ from (EVAL '(SETF *STANDARD-OUTPUT* (MAKE-BROADCAST-STREAM))) having no net effect due to EVAL rebinding *STANDARD-OUTPUT*?
2017-06-20T01:17:55Z nyef``: Or is that also legitimate behavior?
2017-06-20T01:17:56Z Bike: you could argue that there's an expectation that... right, that functions don't rebind standard variables willy nilly.
2017-06-20T01:18:15Z Bike: but that's just so hermeneutic, you know?
2017-06-20T01:18:41Z nyef``: And what's the matter with that?
2017-06-20T01:19:00Z nyef``: There's also the possibility of simply mutating the existing binding, as opposed to rebinding.
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2017-06-20T01:19:18Z Bike: it's a technical standard, not a gnostic text
2017-06-20T01:19:30Z Bike: if two implementations disagreed about this i'd just be like, well, don't do that then
2017-06-20T01:19:48Z nyef``: And if you were an implementor?
2017-06-20T01:20:09Z Bike: would do whatever was more convenient for me.
2017-06-20T01:20:16Z nyef``: Hrm.
2017-06-20T01:20:29Z Bike: unless i had a client paying me money to do it one way, perhaps :p
2017-06-20T01:21:06Z nyef``: Heh.
2017-06-20T01:23:49Z nyef``: So, you claim that the behavior is undefined by the specification, because it is not explicitly mentioned as a forbidden behavior?
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2017-06-20T01:25:18Z Bike: and because i think it is reasonable for it to work either way, yes.
2017-06-20T01:25:36Z nyef``: ... I think that that argument is weak, but I'm not sure that I have a stronger argument for the opposite case without invoking hermeneutics.
2017-06-20T01:27:46Z Bike: yep. ¯\_▐ ◔ ┏ل͜┓ ◔ ▐_/¯
2017-06-20T01:29:24Z nyef``: Hrm.
2017-06-20T01:30:31Z nyef``: Ah. There's no "Affected By" section for *STANDARD-OUTPUT*. But there is for some other standard variables.
2017-06-20T01:31:23Z nyef``: The drawback here is that we basically cannot rely on the standard streams preserving identity across any standard function boundary.
2017-06-20T01:31:32Z nyef``: But it does give me the line of argument that I need.
2017-06-20T01:31:34Z nyef``: Thank you.
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2017-06-20T01:33:47Z Bike: i'm curious what the context of this is, since there doesn't seem to be an annoying pedantic argument in #sbcl
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2017-06-20T01:35:30Z nyef``: The context? *GENSYM-COUNTER*.
2017-06-20T01:36:05Z nyef``: The argument was on Friday.
2017-06-20T01:36:18Z Bike: oh yeah, i remember that.
2017-06-20T01:36:24Z nyef``: Yeah.
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2017-06-20T01:36:57Z nyef``: And, quite clearly, COMPILE-FILE is forbidden from doing anything stupid to *GENSYM-COUNTER* beyond calling GENSYM.
2017-06-20T01:38:50Z nyef``: The *only* standard function that is permitted to affect *GENSYM-COUNTER* (without it being passed as an argument) is GENSYM itself, which has precisely defined semantics for how it so does.
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2017-06-20T01:39:40Z nyef``: And that "passed as an argument" exception is primarily for things like MAKUNBOUND.
2017-06-20T01:39:59Z nyef``: Per 1.4.4.1, this includes binding.
2017-06-20T01:40:08Z Bike: hm, maybe there's something in 1, the most boring chapter. oh you're ahead of me.
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2017-06-20T01:42:06Z nyef``: I suppose that my next step is to write a test-case for this.
2017-06-20T01:45:11Z nyef``: Okay, backing up. The only standard function that is permitted to *directly* affect *GENSYM-COUNTER*. Other functions (or macros) invoking GENSYM is fine.
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2017-06-20T01:51:40Z araujo: Hello, what is a good/decent CL implementation that can compile to C executables (gcc)?
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2017-06-20T01:56:09Z Bike: ECL?
2017-06-20T01:56:20Z Bike: i think it's the only one that compiles to C.
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2017-06-20T01:57:55Z nyef``: There's also WCL, though I have no idea how up-to-date / conforming it is.
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2017-06-20T01:58:44Z nyef``: Why "compiles to C" rather than "produces static-linkable modules"?
2017-06-20T02:00:25Z nyef``: (And feel free to qualify that further by requiring that the normal system link editor be able to do the linking.)
2017-06-20T02:01:07Z araujo: nyef``, mainly researching my options here, I would like to run executables in a system with only GCC available
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2017-06-20T02:02:35Z nyef``: Which wouldn't preclude an implementation that can spit out an executable *without* involving GCC, right? (Not that such a thing is common / well-known / existing in the first place.)
2017-06-20T02:03:03Z Bike: it's not?
2017-06-20T02:03:52Z araujo: nyef``, well, that depends, I am concerned about the performance , I just assume that using gcc could bring really fast executables in such a systems
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2017-06-20T02:04:21Z araujo: and also small executables
2017-06-20T02:06:09Z araujo: so, basically, if I could find a CL implementation that can generate small and well optimized executables for gcc/glibc systems .. that'd be awesome
2017-06-20T02:06:24Z nyef``: There are more holes in that line of argument than I'm prepared to address at this point... But "small executables" actually has a plausible justification in terms of deployment logistics... if you're targetting dial-up or cellular-data users.
2017-06-20T02:06:50Z araujo: now, if they compile statically, but well optimized too, that'd be one I would consider too
2017-06-20T02:06:51Z nyef``: ... or if you're targetting embdedded systems such as routers.
2017-06-20T02:07:47Z nyef``: Bike: Do you know of an implementation that will spit out an ELF or PE executable without other tool support?
2017-06-20T02:07:57Z nyef``: Hell, even a Mach-O executable?
2017-06-20T02:09:05Z Bike: dunno, but i didn't think you needed full gcc, maybe just a linker or something.
2017-06-20T02:09:47Z nyef``: You'd still need to be spitting out ELF (or OMF, or whatever) object files, though. Do you know of an implementation that does that?
2017-06-20T02:10:26Z Bike: no. i don't usually build executables.
2017-06-20T02:10:34Z Bike: you know more than me on this matter, obvs
2017-06-20T02:11:25Z nyef``: Mmm. And while I build executables for the (symbol-value 'dayjob), it's using SBCL's SLAD :EXECUTABLE T mechanism.
2017-06-20T02:12:10Z nyef``: (It's for a server deployment anyway, so the bandwidth bottleneck is uploading from my build machine.)
2017-06-20T02:12:14Z Bike: yeah, like, i don't know how that works.
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2017-06-20T02:21:48Z araujo: Thanks guys, will keep searching ...
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2017-06-20T05:04:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-20T05:04:58Z flavio81: good night here in Lima
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2017-06-20T05:05:03Z flavio81: morning in bordeaux
2017-06-20T05:05:09Z flavio81: hi Robert
2017-06-20T05:05:33Z beach: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2017-06-20T05:06:13Z pjb: Good time!
2017-06-20T05:07:05Z flavio81: LOL
2017-06-20T05:07:06Z flavio81: " Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated."
2017-06-20T05:08:54Z flavio81: Surprised that on the internet there is slang even for things like this. As some guy in the US Patent Office said in the 1920s, "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."
2017-06-20T05:09:19Z circ-user-2fvK9: Pretty new to mcclim - In the mcclim listener, I did "Apropos" from the menu, and it produces a text box into which I can type, but pressing return doesn't  have the effect of of clicking ok. I've noticed that in other mcclim examples. Is there a key that does the same? tried control ret, shift ret etc.
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2017-06-20T05:10:37Z beach: circ-user-2fvK9: Probably not.  But it would be good if you submit an "issue", because such a key would be useful.
2017-06-20T05:11:04Z beach: circ-user-2fvK9: By the way, there is a #clim channel where most of the activity revolves around McCLIM.
2017-06-20T05:11:18Z circ-user-2fvK9: Ah good to know thanks
2017-06-20T05:12:08Z beach: Sure.
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2017-06-20T05:39:06Z krwq: mito question: does anyone know how to define :col-type for SQL's DECIMAL(x,y)?
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2017-06-20T05:47:41Z krwq: seems like i can just use :decimal and in my case x,y are not too important
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2017-06-20T11:39:35Z beach: I have an ASDF system where a function is used in file f1 and defined in file f2 but f1 precedes f2 in the system definition.  Didn't it use to be the case that I would get a warning when f1 was compiled?  I don't get that now.
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2017-06-20T11:43:13Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-06-20T11:56:26Z jackdaniel: beach: maybe you had this function defined before? it won't complain if it is in the image
2017-06-20T11:56:37Z jackdaniel: asdf doesn't track defined functions, it's warning from the implementation
2017-06-20T11:56:47Z beach: I started a fresh image and I removed all the fasls of my system.
2017-06-20T11:57:18Z beach: Yes, but perhaps it surrounds the compilation with with-compilation-unit.
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2017-06-20T11:57:52Z jackdaniel: fwiw it does
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2017-06-20T11:58:13Z beach: That would explain this behavior then.  Thanks.
2017-06-20T11:58:13Z jackdaniel: it has around method on perform-plan, which wraps whole operation with it
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2017-06-20T11:58:44Z beach: Thanks.  I am thinking that this didn't use to be the case.
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2017-06-20T11:59:23Z beach: I might be wrong though.  Not important I guess.
2017-06-20T11:59:40Z jackdaniel: from the comment on top of the file: ;;; This is ASDF 3.1.5
2017-06-20T11:59:57Z beach: I see.  Thanks.
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2017-06-20T14:38:27Z mrottenkolber: Does anyone else have issues with SLIME regarding multiple inferior lisps? I often run into a situation where any interaction with the slime repl leads to “Connection closed”, I can restart the inferior lisps etc, but only if I restart emacs do I get the repl to not crash instantly again
2017-06-20T14:39:05Z Xach_: mrottenkolber: I haven't had that trouble. I often use 4 or 5 separate inferior lisps.
2017-06-20T14:39:06Z Bike: i can't say i've seen that before.
2017-06-20T14:39:23Z mrottenkolber: I have that constantly, its infuriating
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2017-06-20T14:40:23Z mrottenkolber: could be my slime hacks at fault, I do some shady stuff to evaluate elisp code from CL
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2017-06-20T14:41:19Z mrottenkolber: either way, I would really appreciate some kind of M-x slime-reset-all
2017-06-20T14:41:59Z Bike: which would do what?
2017-06-20T14:42:24Z mrottenkolber: wipe whatever state left that causes this
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2017-06-20T15:00:15Z mrottenkolber: oh and another thing: say I C-e something that doesn’t halt, how do I abort it?
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2017-06-20T18:34:06Z learning_: unerstanding more about how lisp works is such a huge reward
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2017-06-20T18:47:05Z jackdaniel: there is even one more enlightnment level below, how it works underneath. Not necessarily a raward ;-)
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2017-06-20T20:58:10Z Reinisch: I recently suggested to someone here (thetabit?) that they try using SHELLPOOL to run shell things amid lisp code.  I believe I've encountered an error with SHELLPOOL and since it took me a while to figure out what was going on, I thought I should give a shout-out here.  This is the issue I created on the project's github page: https://github.com/jaredcdavis/shellpool/issues/13
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2017-06-21T01:25:22Z fvs: hi all; I'm trying to learn common lisp, but there's something I'm not getting. Why is (car nil) => nil? Like, is (car nil) => nil and (car nil) => nil, then wouldn't that mean nil is the same as (nil)?
2017-06-21T01:27:14Z Zhivago: Largely for convenience -- scheme doesn't do that, for example.
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2017-06-21T01:27:50Z Zhivago: nil isn't the same as (nil) for many operations, but it is the same for (car '(nil)), yes.
2017-06-21T01:29:04Z fvs: okay, thanks. so then does scheme throw an error on (car nil)?
2017-06-21T01:31:11Z fvs: because that's what haskell does (or rather, that's what it does on (head []), which seems to be equivalent)
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2017-06-21T01:37:18Z PuercoPop: fvs: because convenience and correctness sometimes are at odds. Scheme chose the latter
2017-06-21T01:37:18Z minion: PuercoPop, memo from flavio81: Estas listo para conocer anuestro salvador, Common Lisp?
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2017-06-21T01:44:00Z fvs: PuercoPop: Ok, thanks, that makes sense
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2017-06-21T02:40:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-21T04:02:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone here know how long Lispworks takes to respond to emails?
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2017-06-21T04:45:15Z vtomole: I'm getting a "There is no applicable method for the generic function" Even thought i have an accessor to that slot value..
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2017-06-21T04:54:08Z beach: vtomole: Paste some code?
2017-06-21T04:56:15Z Zhivago: vtomole: Perhaps you're calling it with arguments of a class that you have not specialized it for?
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2017-06-21T05:00:05Z pillton: beach: It seems weird to wrap everything a compilation unit. All of your macros would required eval-when.
2017-06-21T05:00:29Z pillton: Sorry, everything in a compilation unit.
2017-06-21T05:00:54Z vtomole: beach: Trying to run some very old program:http://faculty.hampshire.edu/lspector/qgame.lisp
2017-06-21T05:02:12Z vtomole: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349177
2017-06-21T05:03:14Z beach: vtomole: The error you show doesn't seem to mention any lack of methods.
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2017-06-21T05:03:34Z beach: pillton: Really?
2017-06-21T05:03:54Z slyrus: any sharplispers around?
2017-06-21T05:04:04Z beach: I am one.
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2017-06-21T05:04:30Z slyrus: heh
2017-06-21T05:04:43Z beach: Seriously.
2017-06-21T05:04:49Z slyrus: i know :)
2017-06-21T05:04:54Z beach: Oh, OK.
2017-06-21T05:04:57Z beach: I have commit privileges.
2017-06-21T05:05:02Z vtomole: This is what i get:http://paste.lisp.org/display/349178
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2017-06-21T05:05:11Z slyrus: I want to merge my own pull-request on log4cl but figured i
2017-06-21T05:05:21Z slyrus: 'd check to make sure no one objected
2017-06-21T05:05:49Z beach: vtomole: You are calling it with a list it seems.
2017-06-21T05:07:12Z beach: vtomole: This:  ((#<QUANTUM-SYSTEM {10083D3643}>)) indicates that the argument to the function is a singleton list containing the system, but the accessor is defined for a system and not for a list.
2017-06-21T05:07:47Z vtomole: So if i take the car of that list..
2017-06-21T05:07:58Z beach: That should work.
2017-06-21T05:08:08Z vtomole: Thanks! I was stuck on that for an hour
2017-06-21T05:08:37Z beach: vtomole: It pays off to understand error messages.  They can be a bit cryptic sometimes, to say the least.
2017-06-21T05:08:53Z slyrus: beach: ok, you should be good with: https://github.com/sharplispers/log4cl
2017-06-21T05:09:06Z slyrus: and most recent SBCL and mcclim. if not, I'd like to know about it.
2017-06-21T05:09:20Z beach: Define "to be good with".
2017-06-21T05:09:31Z vtomole: Yes. And this code, in my opinion, is not well written (readability-wise)
2017-06-21T05:09:53Z slyrus: not have compilation errors
2017-06-21T05:10:09Z vtomole: Even though they use a class which should make things easier. And everything is in one file....
2017-06-21T05:10:09Z beach: I mean, what am I supposed to do?
2017-06-21T05:10:25Z vtomole: Im just talking to myself :)
2017-06-21T05:10:36Z slyrus: use a new sbcl to load mcclim
2017-06-21T05:11:15Z beach: But what do I do with   https://github.com/sharplispers/log4cl?  Install it, rather than what is available in Quicklisp?  Something else?
2017-06-21T05:11:45Z slyrus: yes, clone that into ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2017-06-21T05:14:33Z beach: I REALLY HATE this kind of activity.
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2017-06-21T05:18:54Z slyrus: can you be more specific? Do you hate that mcclim now depends on log4cl? Do you hate that log4cl uses internal symbols from SBCL that aren't likely to be stable? Do you hate that SBCL changed it's use of internal symbols?
2017-06-21T05:19:10Z beach: I hate doing system administration.
2017-06-21T05:19:39Z beach: I try very hard to get real work done, rather than catching up with things that change around me.
2017-06-21T05:20:09Z slyrus: OK, but the alternative (the things around you never changing) is worse
2017-06-21T05:20:23Z slyrus: gratuitous bad, breaking changes should be avoided
2017-06-21T05:20:29Z beach: This is the first time I use local-projects.  I have not used that method before.
2017-06-21T05:20:46Z slyrus: Ok. That's where I keep my copy of mcclim.
2017-06-21T05:20:52Z slyrus: well, a link to it anyway.
2017-06-21T05:21:10Z beach: I had my Lisp hierarchy before Quicklisp existed, and I didn't want to change it.
2017-06-21T05:21:12Z slyrus: and now log4cl, until that gets updated in quicklisp
2017-06-21T05:21:48Z slyrus: ok, fair enough, but I'd argue the benefits to using quicklisp outweigh the costs, even if one has to adopt to some new conventions
2017-06-21T05:23:05Z beach: Still the same DEFLATE error.
2017-06-21T05:23:09Z slyrus: bah
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2017-06-21T05:23:15Z slyrus: with a new SBCL?
2017-06-21T05:23:22Z beach: Yes, 1.3.18
2017-06-21T05:23:46Z beach: I checked *inferior-lisp* to make sure.
2017-06-21T05:23:59Z slyrus: what version of retrospectiff?
2017-06-21T05:24:08Z slyrus: and can you post a stacktrace?
2017-06-21T05:24:26Z beach: I don't know.  How do I check the version of retrospectiff?
2017-06-21T05:25:03Z slyrus: first: (asdf:component-pathname (asdf:find-system :retrospectiff))
2017-06-21T05:25:37Z beach: #P"/home/strandh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/retrospectiff-20170403-git/"
2017-06-21T05:26:30Z slyrus: and if you do: (ql:quickload 'deflate)
2017-06-21T05:26:34Z slyrus: ?
2017-06-21T05:27:29Z beach: The error is now gone.  Did I just update SBCL for no good reason?
2017-06-21T05:27:38Z slyrus: lots of good reasons :)
2017-06-21T05:28:09Z slyrus: 5 months of impressive bugfixes from dougk et al...
2017-06-21T05:28:26Z beach: None that I have been suffering from.
2017-06-21T05:28:44Z slyrus: perhaps there was an update to ASDF in that period that fixed the dependency problem
2017-06-21T05:29:27Z beach: OK, the application now starts, but as soon as I try to change the zoom level, I get the same error: Vector length (1) doesn't match declared length (4).
2017-06-21T05:29:59Z slyrus: with a new mcclim?
2017-06-21T05:30:14Z beach: Yes, just pulled it.
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2017-06-21T05:30:28Z beach: Oh, I should pull again?
2017-06-21T05:30:47Z slyrus: no, that should be fine. can you post a stack trace?
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2017-06-21T05:31:35Z Murii: Lisp has no pros...
2017-06-21T05:31:39Z Murii: only _cons_
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2017-06-21T05:34:11Z beach: Murii: Very profound.
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2017-06-21T05:37:44Z vtomole: beach: Any non-cleavir SICL related tasks I should look into?
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2017-06-21T05:39:03Z beach: vtomole: Maybe the sequence functions.  But consult with me before making changes.
2017-06-21T05:39:07Z Murii: beach, thanks :P
2017-06-21T05:39:36Z beach: Murii: There is a famous paper about Emacs called "Prose and CONS".
2017-06-21T05:39:52Z vtomole: beach: I will never make changes before consulting you, Bike taught me that :)
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2017-06-21T05:40:14Z beach: Murii: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=802784&preflayout=tabs
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2017-06-21T05:40:45Z beach: vtomole: There is lots of old code, and the code that corresponds to the ELS paper is incomplete.
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2017-06-21T05:42:27Z vtomole: I presume I should start reading the small module first
2017-06-21T05:42:38Z vtomole: or tiny?
2017-06-21T05:43:09Z beach: vtomole: No, that one is obsolete.
2017-06-21T05:43:23Z beach: vtomole: Read the paper first.
2017-06-21T05:44:31Z beach: vtomole: The system is paper-sequence.asd
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2017-06-21T06:06:54Z pillton: beach: What I said is probably wrong now that I have re-read with-compilation-unit.
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2017-06-21T06:07:32Z beach: pillton: Yeah, it didn't sound right.  I think all it does is to delay warnings.
2017-06-21T06:08:07Z pillton: beach: It does strike me as odd to want: (with-compilation-unit () (dolist (f files) (load (compile-file f))))
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2017-06-21T06:09:00Z slyrus: ok, I can compile here with debug 3 safety 3
2017-06-21T06:10:23Z beach: slyrus: It compiles and runs.  But when I try one of the sliders I get the error.
2017-06-21T06:11:02Z slyrus: ah, got it here too :)
2017-06-21T06:13:00Z beach: Good (so to speak).
2017-06-21T06:14:06Z flip214: slyrus: I get no error... just works as expected, with a few repaint glitches.
2017-06-21T06:14:08Z slyrus: Ok, without that declamation, no problem. hmm....
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2017-06-21T06:14:57Z flip214: and the red thing becomes a rectangle...
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2017-06-21T06:16:30Z slyrus: yeah, that should be an oval. I don't think that's my bug :)
2017-06-21T06:16:38Z beach: slyrus: That's not how I would put it.  Without that declamation, the behavior is incorrect without being reported.  With it, it is incorrect, but reported as such.
2017-06-21T06:17:37Z slyrus: beach: fair enough, but I was talking about the oval thing
2017-06-21T06:18:00Z beach: Ok, without that declamation, no problem. hmm....
2017-06-21T06:18:09Z slyrus: now to track down the problem...
2017-06-21T06:18:58Z |3b|` interprets with-compilation-unit as delaying the decision to signal the warning rather than just the actual signaling, though i don't see anything actually that specific when i look at how it is specified
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2017-06-21T06:48:28Z slyrus: beach: here's an isolated instance of the problem: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349185
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2017-06-21T06:49:42Z beach: Oh, it has to do with the fill pointer?
2017-06-21T06:49:47Z slyrus: yes.
2017-06-21T06:50:31Z slyrus: question is who is at fault here? what's the type of a vector with a fill-pointer?
2017-06-21T06:50:39Z beach: So the "type-of" v does not match the "type of" v.
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2017-06-21T06:51:33Z slyrus: right
2017-06-21T06:52:19Z beach: Interesting.
2017-06-21T06:52:48Z beach: clhs type-of
2017-06-21T06:52:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm
2017-06-21T06:53:24Z dtornabene: clhs describe
2017-06-21T06:53:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2017-06-21T06:53:29Z dtornabene: awesome
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2017-06-21T06:54:15Z slyrus: Ok, I've got a fix. my bug, I think.
2017-06-21T06:54:37Z slyrus: If type-of returns a list, I should only trust the car of the list.
2017-06-21T06:55:14Z slyrus: or, arguably, SBCL is being overly pedantic here.
2017-06-21T06:55:26Z slyrus: now I understand why you never want to update your code :)
2017-06-21T06:55:35Z beach: Heh.  Thanks.
2017-06-21T06:57:07Z slyrus: clhs map
2017-06-21T06:57:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm
2017-06-21T06:57:41Z beach: dtornabene: specbot is very handy for transmitting information about the standard to some #lisp participant that you are having a conversation with.
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2017-06-21T06:59:25Z beach: slyrus: Your fix sounds reasonable to me.
2017-06-21T06:59:50Z slyrus: so, what's the proper way to, e.g., call #'identity on a sequence using map, if one doesn't know the type of sequence but wants to return a sequence of the same type?
2017-06-21T07:00:00Z slyrus: OK. I'll commit that.
2017-06-21T07:00:09Z dtornabene: beach: hadn't seen it before, but I mostly lurk here. thanks for the explanation
2017-06-21T07:00:21Z beach: dtornabene: Sure.
2017-06-21T07:01:38Z beach: clhs copy-seq
2017-06-21T07:01:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_seq.htm
2017-06-21T07:01:56Z beach: slyrus: ↑ maybe?
2017-06-21T07:08:30Z slyrus: beach: yes, that's an elegant fix. Still, I wonder if this isn't an SBCL bug.
2017-06-21T07:09:09Z beach: Yeah, I am not sure.
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2017-06-21T07:16:37Z slyrus: ok, so the question is do I call copy-seq on the sequence, or do I only declare the type to be the car of the list, if the type is a list? I'm leaning towards the copy-seq approach.
2017-06-21T07:18:11Z beach: It seems like a tossup to me.
2017-06-21T07:19:02Z beach: COPY-SEQ will cons.
2017-06-21T07:19:11Z beach: But that might not matter much.
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2017-06-21T07:30:06Z slyrus: ok, fix pushed to my github repo for McCLIM
2017-06-21T07:30:24Z beach: Great!
2017-06-21T07:31:15Z beach: But not to mine?
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2017-06-21T08:55:27Z jackdaniel: els videos are online: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA66mD-6yK8yi-nggbOF1dWusHnu2u6hw
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2017-06-21T09:36:33Z Cymew: Sweet.
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2017-06-21T12:37:58Z phoe_: ooooh
2017-06-21T12:38:00Z phoe_: ELS videos
2017-06-21T12:38:01Z phoe_: <3
2017-06-21T12:38:07Z phoe_: I just saw the mail, yes
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2017-06-21T15:38:07Z malice`: Hi, what library should I use to sanely merge or create pathnames?
2017-06-21T15:38:23Z jackdaniel: cl-fad
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2017-06-21T15:39:08Z jackdaniel: another popular choice is uiop. osicat gives you truly implementation-independent primitives for that though.
2017-06-21T15:39:21Z jackdaniel: but osicat depends on ffi (if that's a problem for you)
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2017-06-21T15:40:17Z malice`: Yeah, I was wondering because http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015 mentioned osicat as preferred one (not sure how legit the site is though)
2017-06-21T15:40:21Z slyrus: uiop is built in on modern systems with ASDF
2017-06-21T15:41:39Z malice`: Right, I'm sorry.
2017-06-21T15:41:53Z malice`: They mentioned uiop as preferred one. I missed "don't" before "use osicat", lol.
2017-06-21T15:43:07Z jackdaniel: slyrus: but built-in version may be different between systems, it's better to depend on uiop from quicklisp for being up-to-date. I have some doubts about uiop api stability too.
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2017-06-21T15:53:01Z malice`: Can I somehow iterate on the pathname in UIOP? Like (with-each-file-in-path (file my-path) (delete-file file)) ?
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2017-06-21T15:54:41Z jackdaniel: cl-fad has walk-directory function
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2017-06-21T16:01:41Z malice`: in uiop ou have uiop:directory-files
2017-06-21T16:01:44Z malice`: so you can map delete-file on that
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2017-06-21T17:58:45Z flip214: "rm -rf *" in lisp?
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2017-06-21T18:10:24Z ym: Set all system symbols to nil?
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2017-06-21T18:11:39Z Bike: (mapc (lambda (p) (ignore-errors (delete-package p))) (list-all-packages))?
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2017-06-21T18:39:28Z phoe_: ooh
2017-06-21T18:39:33Z phoe_: this is so colorful on SBCL
2017-06-21T18:39:45Z phoe_: directly lands a person in ldb
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2017-06-21T18:41:14Z Bike: so it does. what a shame.
2017-06-21T18:41:45Z pjb: flip214: (map nil 'delete-file (directory "**;*.*"))  but CL implementations are not necessarily able to access all the files in a file system.
2017-06-21T18:41:46Z ym: LOL
2017-06-21T18:42:01Z pjb: flip214: also, there's no standard delete-directory.
2017-06-21T18:42:37Z flip214: pjb: well, the empty directories won't be much of a help later on anyway.
2017-06-21T18:43:09Z pjb: On some systems, users weren't allowed to create or delete directories.
2017-06-21T18:43:22Z flip214: ym: Bike: the tree shaker at https://gist.github.com/burtonsamograd/f08f561264ff94391300 at least keeps the :keyword package intact...
2017-06-21T18:43:32Z Bike: who needs keywords
2017-06-21T18:43:52Z Bike: oh, what do you know, deleting :keyword is what drops to ldb
2017-06-21T18:43:56Z Bike: i would have expected an error
2017-06-21T18:44:11Z phoe_: ooh
2017-06-21T18:44:12Z phoe_: hum
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2017-06-21T18:45:11Z flip214: well, won't deleting the keyword package mean that KEYWORDP is no longer working, and so the &rest argument lists can't be parsed anymore?
2017-06-21T18:45:49Z pjb: (setf (getf :foo :for-later) 'saved-data)  (gc)  (assert (eql (getf :foo :for-later) 'saved-data))
2017-06-21T18:45:54Z flip214: does that destroy the package, or will that just remove the package from the list of packages?
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2017-06-21T18:46:03Z Bike: i mean, i thought it would hit a package lock.
2017-06-21T18:46:20Z flip214: that would only help against _modifications_, not _deleting_ the package...
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2017-06-21T18:46:43Z Bike: i thought there was a lock on deleting it as well. evidently not.
2017-06-21T18:46:50Z flip214: same as a write-bit on a file resp. having write rights on the containing directory
2017-06-21T18:47:02Z Bike: and delete-package makes it so later package operations on the package are undefined, so it can be destroyed.
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2017-06-21T19:23:57Z rpg: I just upgraded my linux distro and now my copy of CCL doesn't work.  When I try to start it up, I just get a "file not found" error, although the executable is there. Anyone seen this?
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2017-06-21T19:25:27Z phoe_: rpg: chmod +x?
2017-06-21T19:25:33Z rpg: Yes.
2017-06-21T19:25:39Z phoe_: are you sure all your symlinks are okay?
2017-06-21T19:25:47Z phoe_: how do you run CCL?
2017-06-21T19:26:07Z rpg: As far as I can tell, yes, because this is in my home dir.  ccl64 works, though and ccl not, so that's probably a clue. Investigating further.
2017-06-21T19:26:27Z phoe_: what does `which ccl` return?
2017-06-21T19:26:33Z phoe_: what does `which ccl64` return?
2017-06-21T19:28:41Z rpg: OK, that's it. I don't have what I need to make the 32-bit version work.  The 64-bit one is fine.
2017-06-21T19:30:04Z phoe_: this should give a better error message though
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2017-06-21T19:30:10Z phoe_: go tell #ccl about it
2017-06-21T19:32:43Z rpg: what's odd is it seems like the 32-bit version held over from my old install won't run, but I could easily rebuild the 64-bit one.
2017-06-21T19:32:46Z rpg: Oh, well.
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2017-06-22T03:06:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-22T04:34:13Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2017-06-22T06:28:29Z beach: minion: memo for holycow: When does summer start for you? :)
2017-06-22T06:28:30Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell holycow when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-06-22T06:31:01Z beach: pillton: Which reminds me, the world is pretty biased toward the northern hemisphere.  Take "Google summer of code" for instance.  Do they put that on in December in Australasia?
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2017-06-22T06:49:11Z pillton: I don't know actually. I think Google has an office in Sydney so I presume so.
2017-06-22T06:49:59Z pillton: I don't mind going to the northern hemisphere in the middle of the year.
2017-06-22T06:51:57Z Zhivago: Google does, indeed.
2017-06-22T06:52:16Z beach: Great!
2017-06-22T06:52:30Z loke___: They do have an office in Sydney. I went there for an interview a few years back. At the time they did the Google Docs development there.
2017-06-22T06:53:18Z beach: pillton: ELS will be perfect then.  It's the spring in Spain then. :)
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2017-06-22T06:54:03Z Zhivago: But I'm also fairly confident that Summer of Code is using the northerly notion of Summer.
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2017-06-22T07:00:22Z pillton: beach: Do you know the submission dead line?
2017-06-22T07:00:44Z beach: Dates have not been decided.  Probably around February.
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2017-06-22T07:17:30Z phoe_: beach: most of the habitable land and most of the population lives on the northern hemisphere, so the bias seems to have some foundation.
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2017-06-22T07:18:13Z beach: It is still not polite.
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2017-06-22T07:20:41Z flip214: beach: historical convention is the best apology I can offer for "us" (as in the Northern Hemisphere)
2017-06-22T07:21:25Z beach: Sure.  But I became very aware of the extent of it when I spent a year in New Zealand.
2017-06-22T07:21:36Z phoe_ nodnod.
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2017-06-22T07:42:15Z flip214: beach: found another reason... having "us" in the upper half means that the unwashed hands land on the lower portion of the map, and not on the clean desk ;)
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2017-06-22T07:55:34Z beach: Progress report on lambda-list parsing using Earley: First, I got everything working on normal S-expressions.  Then I started modifying the code to work on concrete syntax trees (CSTs) instead (which was the purpose of the entire thing).  It now passes the tests for ordinary, generic-function, and specialized lambda lists.  That means that the Earley parsing code is basically working.
2017-06-22T07:55:40Z beach: For the remaining lambda-list types, the modifications I have to deal with have to do with getting the "test parsers" working.  Recall that I am testing the lambda-list parsers by having a set of parallel parsers (called test parsers) that work differently.
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2017-06-22T07:55:42Z beach: I then compare the parse trees generated by the "normal" parsers and the "test" parsers on a large number of randomly generated lambda lists.  This technique means I have to write a significant amount of test code, but it is definitely worth it.
2017-06-22T07:56:51Z malice`: Hi! I've got a code with drakma http-request. I sometimes get 500, and when it happens I want to retry the request (until I get the answer). I've set up a handler-bind for the error I get. How should I setup the restart?
2017-06-22T07:57:31Z malice`: I am thinking of (restart-case (my-call) ((try-again (my-call)))) (where my-call is drakma:http-request ...), but I'm afraid that I might get 500 second time and it won't be handled. Am I right?
2017-06-22T08:02:10Z phoe: malice`: correct.
2017-06-22T08:02:23Z phoe: in restart-case, you might want to call the whole function recursively.
2017-06-22T08:02:56Z malice`: as I thought.
2017-06-22T08:02:57Z malice`: Thanks.
2017-06-22T08:03:00Z phoe: so (defun try-call (n) (if (<= 5 n) (error) (restart-case ...)))
2017-06-22T08:03:01Z malice`: Oh, one more question
2017-06-22T08:03:02Z phoe: something like that
2017-06-22T08:03:08Z malice`: If I get really unlucky
2017-06-22T08:03:11Z phoe: so you only try up to five times in this example.
2017-06-22T08:03:18Z malice`: won't that make me risk the stack overflow?
2017-06-22T08:03:29Z phoe: five stack frames? come on :)
2017-06-22T08:03:53Z phoe: this recursion has a defined and tiny upper bound.
2017-06-22T08:04:09Z phoe: and you can work yourself out of it by using TAGBODY and GO if you are really worried.
2017-06-22T08:04:21Z malice`: sure
2017-06-22T08:04:23Z malice`: thanks.
2017-06-22T08:04:42Z phoe: (tagbody :start (restart-case ... ((try-again (go :start))))
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2017-06-22T08:37:39Z flip214: tail-calls for the rescue...
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2017-06-22T11:18:26Z pillton: beach: Nice work with the Early parser. Writing lambda list parsers is such a pain.
2017-06-22T11:19:44Z pillton: beach: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/tests/lambda-lists.lisp#L45
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2017-06-22T12:06:44Z beach: pillton: Thanks.  I made my life harder, because this is Cleavir, so what is a valid lambda list could be extended by the implementation.
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2017-06-22T15:48:50Z kefin_: Anyone using sbcl?
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2017-06-22T15:49:19Z kefin_: How can I define-alien-routine and rename the function?
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2017-06-22T15:52:17Z Bike: rename? like provide a custom lisp name?
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2017-06-22T15:58:13Z kefin_: Bike: yeah, since it clashes with the builtin read
2017-06-22T15:58:57Z beach: kefin_: You are not trying to define names in the COMMON-LISP package, are you?
2017-06-22T15:59:10Z kefin_: I am, is that wrong?
2017-06-22T15:59:47Z Fade: usually
2017-06-22T16:00:04Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#The-define_002dalien_002droutine-Macro
2017-06-22T16:00:09Z JuanDaugherty: should be instinctually wrong
2017-06-22T16:00:20Z Bike: "name [...] may also be a list of the foreign name and the Lisp name"
2017-06-22T16:01:52Z kefin_: I don't understand the documentation what does [sb-alien] tell me?
2017-06-22T16:02:21Z Bike: that this is in the sb-alien package, naturally.
2017-06-22T16:04:32Z kefin_: I don't understand where I put the the rename
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2017-06-22T16:05:39Z kefin_: I have (define-alien-routine "read" size-t (fd int) (sb-alien:void-alien buf) (size-t offset)) currently
2017-06-22T16:06:20Z Bike: Right now NAME is "read". But you can make it ("read" kefin-read) or something.
2017-06-22T16:06:27Z Bike: and then the lisp function will be called kefin-read.
2017-06-22T16:06:35Z kefin_: Yeah just figured it out, should be an example in the docs
2017-06-22T16:07:59Z kefin_: Hmmm buf is of unknown alien type
2017-06-22T16:08:49Z kefin_: Woops, order
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2017-06-22T16:13:26Z nosefouratyou: I am trying to parse some json but I am getting results that don't make sense. It seems that (jonathan:parse ...) isn't modifying the result at all https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/bd4907f3de763c36abed39f502e0d6e0
2017-06-22T16:15:53Z nosefouratyou: oh wait, I figured it out, I was calling a different function.
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2017-06-22T16:40:25Z pjb: kefin_: use cffi instead of implementation-specific FFI.
2017-06-22T16:40:49Z pjb: kefin_: and mind #sbcl for implementation specific questions.
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2017-06-22T16:58:30Z adlaistevenson: How well is program correctness varified before a Lisp program is executed?
2017-06-22T16:58:37Z adlaistevenson: *verified
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2017-06-22T17:04:45Z Bike: depends on your compiler
2017-06-22T17:05:18Z phoe: adlaistevenson: what do you mean, program correctness?
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2017-06-22T17:05:26Z phoe: the obvious check if, does it compile?
2017-06-22T17:05:37Z phoe: the not-obvious check is, does the program do what you think it does?
2017-06-22T17:05:43Z phoe: the obvious check is done by the compiler.
2017-06-22T17:05:52Z phoe: the not-obvious check should be done by the programmer.
2017-06-22T17:06:44Z phoe: (just like in all other programming languages that aren't machine code)
2017-06-22T17:09:59Z Bike: there are systems that try to do that, phoe
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2017-06-22T17:10:10Z Bike: and i have no idea why you distinguish machine code
2017-06-22T17:11:05Z phoe: ...you
2017-06-22T17:11:13Z phoe: ...you're right, scratch that remark about machine code.
2017-06-22T17:12:03Z phoe: to be more precise, in Lisp, stuff like (compile nil (lambda (x) (+ 'foo x)) will compile (and most likely produce a warning) and then, when you run it, produce a runtime error. but that's what you get for having a language with strong but dynamic typing.
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2017-06-22T17:15:14Z phoe: nonetheless, type detection in some Lisp implementations (including the most popular ones) works decently, which is why you get that type warning during compilation.
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2017-06-22T17:18:43Z pjb: adlaistevenson: the point is that the lisp systems validate the correctness at run-time, because it can change at run-time!
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2017-06-22T17:19:18Z pjb: adlaistevenson: when you write an AI that learns, and compiles new knowledge into itself at run-time, you cannot prove it ages before.
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2017-06-22T17:21:02Z pjb: adlaistevenson: furthermore, there is indeed the important question of what you call correctness: all lisp data is valid and correct lisp program (well almost, you can declare safety 0 and get a bunch of undefined behavior). But otherwise, you should always have controlled ie. "correct" execution, at the most basic level.
2017-06-22T17:21:47Z pjb: adlaistevenson: there can be an incorrect program, ie. a bug, only if you have a specification to check the behavior of the program against.  To let do that by the computer, you will need a FORMAL specification.
2017-06-22T17:22:38Z phoe: pjb: of course you can prove it, except it's NP-hard.
2017-06-22T17:22:49Z pjb: So good luck obtaining a formal specfication of your software from scrum user stories.
2017-06-22T17:22:49Z phoe: pjb: is (:foo . :bar) a correct Lisp program?
2017-06-22T17:22:53Z pjb: Yes.
2017-06-22T17:23:14Z phoe: It's a correct Lisp program that signals an error?
2017-06-22T17:23:14Z pjb: It correctly signals a program-error (or an error, depending whether you pass it to the compiler or the interpreter).
2017-06-22T17:23:21Z pjb: (eval '(:foo . :bar)) #| ERROR: The value :bar is not of the expected type list. |#
2017-06-22T17:23:39Z phoe: hm, a fun way to look at it
2017-06-22T17:23:39Z pjb: Yes.
2017-06-22T17:23:41Z Bike: checking that an algorithm implements a function isn't NP-hard. why would it be NP-hard? it's impossible. but for specific cases it's reasonable.
2017-06-22T17:23:53Z pjb: Error signaling is correct and expected behavior for a lisp program.
2017-06-22T17:24:09Z pjb: Along with other conditions, and condition handling, and restarts.
2017-06-22T17:24:21Z phoe: Bike: "when you write an AI that learns, and compiles new knowledge into itself at run-time, you cannot prove it ages before."
2017-06-22T17:24:24Z phoe: my comment was to that
2017-06-22T17:24:33Z Bike: why would that be NP-hard?
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2017-06-22T17:25:13Z phoe: wait, what does "ages" mean in this context?
2017-06-22T17:25:31Z pjb: multiple times the expected lifespan of the universe.
2017-06-22T17:26:00Z pjb: Often even multiple times the expected lifespan of all the universes in the multiverse.
2017-06-22T17:26:01Z phoe: oh, I thought it was a *verb*, not a *noun*.
2017-06-22T17:26:24Z phoe: scratch my comment then, I thought a completely different thing.
2017-06-22T17:26:52Z pjb: Well, this is what NP-hard means.
2017-06-22T17:27:05Z pjb: you won't have the time to do it.
2017-06-22T17:27:57Z Bike: no it's not
2017-06-22T17:28:02Z Bike: it's specific!
2017-06-22T17:28:15Z Bike: whatever. lisp question. what happens if you use a forward-referenced-class as your metaclass.
2017-06-22T17:28:19Z pjb: in practical terms.
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2017-06-22T17:28:52Z pjb: Bike: I think it's not envisionned.  Probably you'll get an error.
2017-06-22T17:29:16Z Bike: yeah let me just test actually
2017-06-22T17:29:36Z pjb: If the metaclass cannot be finalized, there's no way to use it to even create a non-finalized class, so nothing can help.
2017-06-22T17:30:52Z Bike: actually, wait, to be a metaclass it has to be finalized, so the defclass with the :metaclass should finalize it at compile time (or if that's impossible, signal an error)
2017-06-22T17:31:02Z pjb: t
2017-06-22T17:31:18Z Bike: well, in any case what it should definitely not do is segfault
2017-06-22T17:31:36Z pjb: Definitely.  segfault is always a bug in the lisp implementation.
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2017-06-22T17:31:48Z pjb: (providing ffi is a bug).
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2017-06-22T17:48:01Z drmeister: In multi-threaded programming with bordeaux threads...
2017-06-22T17:48:59Z drmeister: If I break up a job across 8 threads and set them all in motion - does it make sense to have a loop that does JOIN-THREAD on all of them to synchronize with them all?
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2017-06-22T17:50:33Z drmeister: (let ((threads (loop for x in jobs collect (make-thread #'(lambda (job) (do-job job))))) (loop for x in threads do (join-thread x)))
2017-06-22T17:50:36Z drmeister: Something like that.
2017-06-22T17:51:38Z Bike: isn't that what join-thread is basically for?
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2017-06-22T17:53:14Z pjb: drmeister: only if you need to synchronize on all thread completed.
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2017-06-22T17:54:00Z pjb: drmeister: notice how often you use wait in shell scripts, compared to &.
2017-06-22T17:54:47Z drmeister: pjb: Could you elaborate on that last statement?
2017-06-22T17:55:02Z pjb: Granted, it may be needed more often in threads to collect the result, but honestly if you use threads, it's probably because the problem is more parallel than sequential, so you don't have a single result at the end in general, but you will have computed vectors of results during the processing.
2017-06-22T17:55:43Z pjb: drmeister: we fork more often than we wait for children, because synchronization with the termination of children is rarely needed.
2017-06-22T17:56:46Z pjb: In case of threads, often they will mutate a common data structure, so the final result is already synchronized around those mutation, and we don't care when it's complete.
2017-06-22T17:57:07Z pjb: My point is that it make sense to use  join-thread, but also not to use it, when you don't need to.
2017-06-22T17:57:55Z drmeister: In this case I need to aggregate all of the results together.  But I think now I'll use a thread pool and farm off smaller jobs to them.   I have about 300 C++ source files that need to be analyzed to identify pointers in classes within the code.   They can be analyzed in parallel - but the results need to be aggregated to generate code for a garbage collector.
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2017-06-22T17:59:01Z pjb: drmeister: yes, if you keep worker pools, and initiate tasks by messaging them, you will get the results thru some messaging, and not at the end of the thread (they will be infinite loops).  In this pattern, you don't need join-thread (it'd block forever).
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2017-06-22T18:01:37Z scymtym: drmeister: are you aware of lparallel?
2017-06-22T18:01:44Z drmeister: Hmm, I just incorporated a non-locking multi-producer, multi-consumer queue - I could use those here.
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2017-06-22T18:02:10Z drmeister: scymtym: No
2017-06-22T18:03:11Z scymtym: drmeister: it make this kind architecture quite easy. e.g. https://lparallel.org/pmap-family/
2017-06-22T18:10:11Z flip214: drmeister: how about using lparallel?
2017-06-22T18:10:26Z flip214: (lparallel:pmapcar #'routing list-of-files)
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2017-06-22T18:21:53Z drmeister: lparallel loads into Clasp using quicklisp.
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2017-06-22T18:30:09Z akkad: hmm
2017-06-22T18:30:17Z akkad: pcall has a thread safe queue
2017-06-22T18:30:57Z akkad: pcall-queue rather
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2017-06-22T19:22:02Z kefin: Does anyone know how to turn (array char N) into a string in sbcl?
2017-06-22T19:23:33Z Bike: what is (array char)? an alien string?
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2017-06-22T19:24:18Z kefin: Bike: yes
2017-06-22T19:24:36Z Bike: Do you know the encoding?
2017-06-22T19:24:44Z kefin: The C API I'm using takes in an (array char N), not a c-string. Encoding is utf-8
2017-06-22T19:25:24Z kefin: I'm trying to deref into it after the C call but it's not accessible.
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2017-06-22T19:25:41Z Bike: I thought sb-alien took care of that, but I guess not. If you use CFFI instead, it should do en/decoding transparently, as far as I remember.
2017-06-22T19:26:09Z kefin: Well c-string yeah but this is the inotify_event struct, which isn't very nice :P
2017-06-22T19:27:13Z Bike: I don't follow.
2017-06-22T19:28:19Z kefin: inotify_event has some uint32 and at the end a char*, but it doesn't write to what that ptr points to, it writes essentially "past" the struct object, and the char ptr represents that
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2017-06-22T19:31:41Z kefin: I've got it! "cast" in sbcl does the job
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2017-06-23T01:46:58Z krwq: is there any tree-equal equivalent which works with both vectors and lists? (but #(1 2 3) != (list 1 2 3))
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2017-06-23T01:52:28Z Bike: not built in.
2017-06-23T01:52:42Z Bike: well, wait, no, maybe equalp does recurse.
2017-06-23T01:52:59Z Bike: you can't specify a test though.
2017-06-23T01:53:16Z krwq: but equalp is case insensitive right?
2017-06-23T01:53:28Z Bike: quite right.
2017-06-23T01:54:00Z krwq: ok, will write my own I guess.. thanks Bike
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2017-06-23T02:15:04Z krwq: what's the reasonale behind (atom #()) => t  ?
2017-06-23T02:16:28Z krwq: now I'm confused (atom #(1 2 3)) => t
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2017-06-23T02:18:14Z Bike: atom = not a list
2017-06-23T02:18:16Z White_Flame: atom tests for being a non-cons
2017-06-23T02:18:17Z Bike: list = cons or null
2017-06-23T02:18:28Z Bike: atom does not mean "does not contain other objects"
2017-06-23T02:19:10Z White_Flame: (atom nil) => T
2017-06-23T02:19:17Z krwq: now i see that every instance of any class is an atom
2017-06-23T02:19:29Z krwq: so only cons is not an atom?
2017-06-23T02:19:41Z White_Flame: in ye olde LISP, there were cons cells and atoms
2017-06-23T02:20:01Z White_Flame: and on the 2nd day, other types came to pass
2017-06-23T02:20:14Z krwq: ok, so i don't see why there is atom function at all, i could as well (not (consp ...))
2017-06-23T02:20:31Z White_Flame: bow before the altar of legacy ;)
2017-06-23T02:20:40Z krwq: is there anything for "does not contain other object"? :)
2017-06-23T02:20:58Z White_Flame: does a complex number count as a container?
2017-06-23T02:21:17Z krwq: White_Flame don't care about it for my case
2017-06-23T02:21:26Z White_Flame: heck, does an integer count as a container for bits? :-P
2017-06-23T02:21:54Z krwq: ok stop this inception before my heads explodes :P
2017-06-23T02:22:03Z White_Flame: but basically, there's not a super clear line to draw the distinction, so there's no built-in
2017-06-23T02:22:10Z White_Flame: besides ye olde distinction of cons cell & atom
2017-06-23T02:24:04Z krwq: fair enough although took me by surprise :)
2017-06-23T02:24:05Z Bike: (atom nil) <-- right, my mistake.
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2017-06-23T02:26:04Z krwq: thanks for explaining this, I thought that the atoms were stuff like character, integer, string (soft ground) etc but nothing more complex
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2017-06-23T02:33:02Z pjb: krwq: notice that atoms are not atomic either.  It was tought originally they were atomic, and then we discovered electrons and nucleons.  And then we discovered quarks.  And then we imagine there are strings.
2017-06-23T02:33:56Z pjb: White_Flame: complex numbers are numbers are immutable.
2017-06-23T02:34:44Z pjb: White_Flame: (let ((p #c(1 2))) (complex (real-part p) 3)) vs. (let ((p (make-point :x 1 :y 2))) (setf (point-y p) 3) p)
2017-06-23T02:37:05Z pjb: White_Flame: You can use some kind of Gödel numbering to store everything in integers.
2017-06-23T02:37:24Z pjb: Come to thing of it, you probably would have to when implementing a C over CL :-)
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2017-06-23T02:55:43Z Zhivago: It's important to understand that atoms are essentially syntactic elements in lisp, rather than data types.
2017-06-23T02:57:49Z Zhivago: So they're only meaningful when considering s-exps.
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2017-06-23T03:09:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-23T03:35:09Z whoman: Zhivago, they cannot be divided further, in the sense. but what is there to consider aside from s-exps? if atoms build the structure, when are they not meaningful that is?
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2017-06-23T03:46:53Z Zhivago: Atoms form part of the structure of s-exps. They're not meaningful when you're not talking about s-exps.
2017-06-23T03:47:33Z Zhivago: e.g. '(a b c) might be an s-exp (in which case, talking about atoms is meaningful) or it might just be a list of three symbols (in which case, talking about atoms is not meaningful)
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2017-06-23T03:49:20Z whoman: ahh thats true
2017-06-23T03:49:40Z whoman: thanks for clearing up my premature assumption =)
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2017-06-23T04:09:31Z ricky_ricardo: So an expression can't return an expression? Is that right? (just learning at the moment)
2017-06-23T04:10:03Z ricky_ricardo: Is it correct for me to say that a macro is similar to an expression, but it can return expressions?
2017-06-23T04:10:43Z White_Flame: a macro itself only differs from a function in that its parameters come in raw & unevaluated, in their source code form\
2017-06-23T04:11:13Z White_Flame: other than that, they work exactly the same as functions, returning data which should be in the form of source code to evaluate
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2017-06-23T04:11:55Z White_Flame: a macro can return the _list_ (+ 1 2 3), containing 4 elements (one symbol, 3 numbers)
2017-06-23T04:12:07Z White_Flame: which will get inserted into the source code and further compiled
2017-06-23T04:12:32Z ricky_ricardo: That makes sense. Thank you
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2017-06-23T04:18:29Z pillton: ricky_ricardo: In common lisp, the word macro is short for macro function.
2017-06-23T04:19:50Z pillton: It has nothing to do with processing character syntax.
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2017-06-23T04:21:57Z beach: ricky_ricardo: An expression can not return an expression, simply because "expression" in Common Lisp means data made up of atoms and CONS cells, so they can not return anything.  Only functions (including macro functions) can return things.
2017-06-23T04:21:59Z beach: Now, technically, since a function is an atom and an expression can contain any atom, it is possibly for that particular kind of expression to return something when it is called, but that is not typically how the term "expression" is used.
2017-06-23T04:22:15Z beach: ricky_ricardo: Just saying so that we use the same terminology.
2017-06-23T04:23:38Z ricky_ricardo: That makes sense.
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2017-06-23T04:24:08Z marvin2: if you passed quoted sexps to a function, which returned a sexps (that is passed to eval after the call), is there any practical difference between that and a macro?
2017-06-23T04:24:34Z marvin2: except the time of execution
2017-06-23T04:25:19Z beach: marvin2: One difference is that a macro function takes an environment object that can be used to macroexpand sub-expressions.
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2017-06-23T04:26:32Z Zhivago: ricky: You can think of that as how a macro is essentially implemented -- the remainder being protocols on when that gets applied.
2017-06-23T04:27:21Z beach: Zhivago: Did you mean to address  marvin2?
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2017-06-23T04:30:32Z vtomole: How is a Common Lisp runtime different from other languages, like the C runtime?
2017-06-23T04:30:47Z beach: vtomole: It has a garbage collector for one thing.
2017-06-23T04:33:00Z jasom: vtomole: garbage collection, compiler, allows function-redefinition (with some restrictions).
2017-06-23T04:33:01Z Zhivago: And introspection.
2017-06-23T04:33:22Z Zhivago: Other than that, not incredibly different.
2017-06-23T04:33:54Z whoman: well.. =) a few different samenesses
2017-06-23T04:34:06Z vtomole: Of course, im just trying to figure out how it is implemented on a Lisp that is bootstrapped. I'm not sure how to phrase my question...
2017-06-23T04:34:24Z vtomole: So it contains a stack, and a heap.
2017-06-23T04:34:27Z jasom: vtomole: usually some of the lisp runtime is implemented in something other than lisp
2017-06-23T04:34:33Z whoman: the VM?
2017-06-23T04:35:03Z beach: vtomole: By "a Lisp that is bootstrapped", so you mean that it is written in some other language?
2017-06-23T04:35:16Z jasom: vtomole: I can think of two lisps in which the GC was implemented entirely in its self, and neither of them are common lisps
2017-06-23T04:35:17Z vtomole: I mean written in itself
2017-06-23T04:35:36Z vtomole: jasom: Mezzano is a Common Lisp
2017-06-23T04:35:51Z jasom: vtomole: does mezzano implement the GC in mezzano?
2017-06-23T04:35:52Z beach: vtomole: Ah, then you "just" have to generate machine code that does all the things that the system needs.
2017-06-23T04:36:00Z Zhivago: It might not contain a stack -- some C systems don't, for example.
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2017-06-23T04:36:28Z jasom: vtomole: sbcl is implemented in common lisp, but the gc is written in C, for example.
2017-06-23T04:37:00Z Zhivago: The mistake might be in thinking that C runtimes are all the same.
2017-06-23T04:37:18Z whoman: libc?
2017-06-23T04:37:30Z vtomole: jasom: Mezzano's runtime is all lisp: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/tree/master/runtime
2017-06-23T04:37:45Z vtomole: Zhivago: A runtime without a stack?
2017-06-23T04:37:46Z whoman: what is C's runtime ?
2017-06-23T04:37:58Z jasom: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/runtime/runtime-x86-64.lisp  <-- it's a stretch to call that lisp
2017-06-23T04:38:12Z Zhivago: libc is part of a C implementation -- if it's part of the runtime depends on implementation choices.
2017-06-23T04:38:27Z jasom: I would call it a lisp-based macro assembler...
2017-06-23T04:38:30Z vtomole: jasom: lol good point
2017-06-23T04:38:44Z vtomole: So that runtime is implemented in assembler
2017-06-23T04:38:54Z Zhivago: vtomole: Sure -- and this is part of why longjmp doesn't guarantee to free up VLAs, for example.
2017-06-23T04:38:56Z jasom: that part of the runtime
2017-06-23T04:38:56Z whoman: dont think C has a runtime.  objective-c does.
2017-06-23T04:39:17Z jasom: If it's just 446 lines of assembler, and the rest lisp is still pretty-darn lispy
2017-06-23T04:39:23Z Zhivago: Ok, so you're excluding memory management from run-time?
2017-06-23T04:40:50Z jasom: whoman: C's runtime is much smaller than other runtimes, but it has one.
2017-06-23T04:40:53Z whoman: emscripten would compile C that uses javascript runtime. but..
2017-06-23T04:40:53Z Zhivago: There are things that need to be done -- organizing i/o, memory management, dynamic linkage, etc, which are generally considered to be part of the run-time of a system. If you're using a different definition, you probably need to talk about it.
2017-06-23T04:41:07Z whoman: jasom, does it actually? what does it do/provide?
2017-06-23T04:41:17Z jasom: whoman: dlopen() malloc() come to mind
2017-06-23T04:41:24Z whoman: thats libc, library
2017-06-23T04:41:31Z Zhivago: libc isn't a library.
2017-06-23T04:41:42Z Zhivago: And it can't be implemented as a C library.
2017-06-23T04:42:05Z jasom: glibc does in fact implement much of the C runtime; other parts are (possibly) intrinsic to the compiler (e.g. alloca())
2017-06-23T04:42:07Z whoman: but you can do asm in C. remember that C is fairly bare metal
2017-06-23T04:42:34Z Zhivago: There is no standard way to 'do asm in C'.
2017-06-23T04:42:54Z whoman: we can write C that doesnt link to libc, cant we? runtime would add extra code. well any library is a runtime then
2017-06-23T04:42:54Z jasom: just don't type-pun without unions or have signed integer overflow (both of which you can do bare metal on most archs)
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2017-06-23T04:43:27Z jasom: whoman: and I can write lisp code that doesn't ever CONS, so doesn't need at least the GC part of the runtime...
2017-06-23T04:44:13Z jasom: IIRC libc is not mentioned in the standard, it's just an implementation detail
2017-06-23T04:44:16Z whoman: well lisp is kinda executed at runtime so it needs something before any code, i think i would call that a runtime
2017-06-23T04:44:36Z vtomole: jasom: Doesn't CONS? So lisp code with no parentheses?
2017-06-23T04:44:37Z jasom: whoman: what about all the C code that runs before main (clear the BSS, initialize the heap, &c.)
2017-06-23T04:44:37Z Zhivago: Why not use a native lisp compiler?
2017-06-23T04:44:40Z whoman: yep. theres glibc and other C-standard-library implementations
2017-06-23T04:44:56Z whoman: vtomole=)
2017-06-23T04:45:21Z Zhivago: There is nothing fundamentally different between C and lisp run-times, except for the protocols required (e.g., GC vs malloc, class-of, etc).
2017-06-23T04:45:24Z whoman: jasom, thats true. very super tiny boot runtime
2017-06-23T04:45:53Z Zhivago: There are no portable C-standard-library implementations, for obvious reasons.
2017-06-23T04:46:00Z whoman: even homebrew GBA roms have that logo, like a bios is a runtime then also? boot code
2017-06-23T04:46:15Z jasom: Zhivago: slight correction: there are portable ones, just not indep ones
2017-06-23T04:46:16Z whoman: lets make one in lisp +P
2017-06-23T04:46:32Z Zhivago: What is 'indep' supposed to mean?
2017-06-23T04:46:43Z jasom: Zhivago: target independend vs. portable are two different things
2017-06-23T04:46:54Z jasom: s/independend/independent
2017-06-23T04:48:07Z whoman: C's malloc could be avoided, though. you can write your own in your C code. i think C's runtime is minimal tiny boot header to find main and dlink stuff to preload dynamic libs
2017-06-23T04:48:08Z Zhivago: Sure, and I'll point out that they're still not portable. How do you portably implement FILE, for example?
2017-06-23T04:48:25Z whoman: by using the system's c library =)
2017-06-23T04:48:27Z Zhivago: C's malloc cannot be portably avoided unless you want to limit yourself to auto storage.
2017-06-23T04:48:41Z whoman: nah, glib (gtk) has its own memory stuff
2017-06-23T04:48:53Z Zhivago: Which isn't portable.
2017-06-23T04:49:01Z whoman: even in objective-c i wrote my own and almost didnt need the built in runtime (which the standard libs require)
2017-06-23T04:49:11Z jasom: Zhivago: gtk and qt are both called "portable" but they acheive that by implementing code specifically for different targets
2017-06-23T04:49:24Z whoman: idk glib is ported to a lot of places that libc is - thats its main dependency
2017-06-23T04:50:04Z Zhivago: jasom: You're confusing gtk being portable, with things that depend on gtk being portable.
2017-06-23T04:50:34Z whoman: lisp has runtime for symbol lookup and macro expansion and a few other things
2017-06-23T04:51:24Z Zhivago: And C has runtime for longjmp, and handling floating point error modes, and i/o, and memory management, and character locale support, and ...
2017-06-23T04:51:44Z jasom: And pointer dereferencing
2017-06-23T04:51:45Z whoman: ok- "whatever parts of the development system required for executing what is developed with that system" - runtime. lisp needs the whole image then, it is the runtime. ok i understand now
2017-06-23T04:51:59Z Zhivago: There's really no fundamental difference, except in terms of which interfaces they provide with which semantics.
2017-06-23T04:52:22Z Zhivago: lisp needs nothing more than what lisp needs, just like C needs nothing more than what C needs.
2017-06-23T04:52:38Z White_Flame: and the C library isn't written in 100% C either.  Oftentimes it has asm as well
2017-06-23T04:52:44Z Zhivago: In lisp, (class-of x) needs to work -- how it works can vary -- it may need no run-time support at all.
2017-06-23T04:53:00Z Zhivago: Yes -- the C standard library isn't a library -- it's part of the C implementation.
2017-06-23T04:53:01Z whoman: yeah=)
2017-06-23T04:53:10Z jasom: whoman: there are many lisp implementations that can create images without parts of the runtime (e.g. the compiler) to make smaller images
2017-06-23T04:53:11Z White_Flame: (s/library/runtime/, right :) )
2017-06-23T04:54:08Z whoman: well now we got the word 'implementation' - for eg. GNU C compiler, one can swap out the c library. what do we call an implementation of C
2017-06-23T04:54:37Z Zhivago: One cannot swap out the C library with conforming C code.
2017-06-23T04:54:41Z jasom: whoman: I could write a separate runtime for sbcl, but still reuse the compiler.
2017-06-23T04:54:52Z whoman: jasom, but the images is the development environment, like needing a web browser to execute html.
2017-06-23T04:55:06Z Zhivago: Whatever you swap it out with will need to be tailored specifically to work as part of gcc.
2017-06-23T04:55:09Z whoman: jasom, ah?
2017-06-23T04:55:20Z whoman: yes
2017-06-23T04:55:42Z Zhivago: Images are largely due to having been developed prior to dynamic linkage.
2017-06-23T04:55:43Z whoman: jasom, if lisp images can be run under different implementations..?
2017-06-23T04:55:58Z jasom: whoman: sbcl creates a base image that is loaded; you could swap it out with any compatible image just as you can swab glibc for musl
2017-06-23T04:56:17Z whoman: Zhivago, yeah the C code swapped of course should work as a valid replacement part =)
2017-06-23T04:56:17Z jasom: the fact that nobody has written such an image is orthogonal to the fact that it is technically possible
2017-06-23T04:56:36Z Zhivago: whoman: Meaning that it isn't C codes -- it is GCC code.
2017-06-23T04:56:57Z whoman: jasom, oh wow. so... why not? sbcl --with-core ?
2017-06-23T04:57:09Z jasom: whoman: it's not even just GCC code, it's GCC code with a particular ABI (32-bit PowerPC had 3 different calling conventions in use on different OSes at one point)
2017-06-23T04:57:34Z whoman: Zhivago, but we can swap the library with other compilers after a produced binary of course. the compiler isnt needed
2017-06-23T04:57:40Z Zhivago: Probably the biggest issue for CL is that it lacks a declarative program definition.
2017-06-23T04:57:48Z jasom: whoman: the lisp runtime is much larger than the C runtime, *and* it is much more tightly coupled with the compiler due to garbage collection.
2017-06-23T04:57:58Z White_Flame points all the pointers at Zhivago's last statement
2017-06-23T04:58:03Z White_Flame: pet design peeve of mine
2017-06-23T04:58:23Z Zhivago: whoman: Only if it was written specifically to be part of GCC.
2017-06-23T04:58:25Z jasom: whoman: so writing a new runtime for sbcl would be much harder and less useful at the same time.
2017-06-23T04:58:48Z whoman: well, i think lisp *is* the runtime. and i think that C has a small bootstrap. what would the smallest C binary be produced, contain? just library linking info?
2017-06-23T04:58:57Z whoman: and main() of course ?
2017-06-23T04:59:19Z jasom: whoman: don't forget all of ld-linux.so
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2017-06-23T04:59:29Z jasom: (If we are on linux anyway)
2017-06-23T04:59:30Z whoman: ahh
2017-06-23T04:59:43Z Zhivago: Why would a C binary need either? Just use static linkage, and inline main.
2017-06-23T05:00:07Z whoman: so linux is the C implementation...
2017-06-23T05:00:13Z whoman: just wondering where that line is
2017-06-23T05:00:19Z White_Flame: the smallest C binary would probably just return an exit code
2017-06-23T05:00:28Z jasom: whoman: the smallest C program would be "int main() { return 0; }"; it's an implementation-detail how much runtime is needed to execute that
2017-06-23T05:00:36Z Zhivago: No. The C compiler realizes an implementation of a C program that is runnable on a target machine.
2017-06-23T05:00:44Z Zhivago: That implementation isn't C anymore.
2017-06-23T05:01:01Z whoman: hmmm
2017-06-23T05:01:01Z Zhivago: (Which is probably why most of this conversation is meaningless)
2017-06-23T05:02:05Z whoman: jasom, the smallest produced binary C program that is.
2017-06-23T05:02:31Z Zhivago: Just hand compile it.
2017-06-23T05:03:11Z White_Flame: there's mechanism to call main, take its return value and pass it back to the OS.  However, as has been mentioned above, that could conceivably be inlined with the bootstrap and collapse down to never actually entering a "C runtime environment"
2017-06-23T05:03:16Z whoman: well, this is what i think: for C compiled without optimizations, a simple return 0 in asm is likely produced. lets say we can produce the same unoptimized program from a pascal compiler without runtime. the binaries would be the same or not?
2017-06-23T05:03:35Z whoman: (without including standard library of C or pascal also)
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2017-06-23T05:03:49Z Zhivago: If hand compiled by the same person, why not? They're the same program, after all ...
2017-06-23T05:04:18Z Zhivago: Otherwise you're just waving your hands about uselessly imagining random compilers.
2017-06-23T05:04:45Z White_Flame: whoman: at that point, you're basically comparing function call conventions
2017-06-23T05:04:53Z White_Flame: because the meat of the routine is just "return 0"
2017-06-23T05:05:09Z whoman: i grew up with C, just trying to establish my beliefs about it since i havent really challenged them before (thank you) ^_^
2017-06-23T05:05:13Z Zhivago: Which don't need to be honoured, since we can prove that no-one will call them.
2017-06-23T05:05:22Z White_Flame: right
2017-06-23T05:05:26Z Zhivago: whoman: char c[3]; What is the type of c?
2017-06-23T05:05:30Z jasom: pascal on 16-bit x86 traditionally ordered the function arguments in the opposite order from C on the stack
2017-06-23T05:05:42Z whoman: White_Flame, aha true. because reduced to functions, unoptimized, any compiler is just asm dialect then.
2017-06-23T05:06:23Z whoman: hehe
2017-06-23T05:06:59Z Zhivago: That's a remarkably content-free assertion.
2017-06-23T05:07:21Z whoman: function-calling definately needs a runtime. C for sure has one
2017-06-23T05:08:13Z jasom: whoman: the C standard is very different from C implementations, sometimes surprisingly so.  Furthermore C implementations tend to try very hard to be compatible with whichever C implementation was used to compile the operating-system libraries (for obvious reasons), so multiple C compilers on the same OS happen to be compatible; this isn't required though.
2017-06-23T05:08:16Z White_Flame: again, for tiny degenerate cases, where there's provably no other callers, the conventions can be ignored
2017-06-23T05:08:29Z White_Flame: consider 'main' being inlined with what invokes it
2017-06-23T05:08:38Z jasom: e.g. the word "memory" does not appear anywhere in normative parts of the C99 specification.
2017-06-23T05:08:40Z Zhivago: function-calling needs no run-time at all, in general.
2017-06-23T05:08:57Z White_Flame: well, function calling assumes that pointers are at least valid
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2017-06-23T05:09:09Z Zhivago: That assumption has no run-time requirement.
2017-06-23T05:09:11Z White_Flame: to be written/read in ways expected from a function call
2017-06-23T05:09:30Z White_Flame: since no in-language mechanism sets that up, it's the runtime that establishes that before any function is called
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2017-06-23T05:09:39Z White_Flame: however, a runtime can also unload itself by the time the userspace code actually runs
2017-06-23T05:09:48Z White_Flame: having performed that setup
2017-06-23T05:09:51Z whoman: read macro is changing lisp runtime essentially ?
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2017-06-23T05:10:15Z Zhivago: White_Flame: What is it that you imagine needs to be set up?
2017-06-23T05:10:15Z jasom: whoman: no, it just changed READ, which is a library function, not part of the runtime :P
2017-06-23T05:10:28Z White_Flame: Zhivago: stacks
2017-06-23T05:10:53Z Zhivago: white_flame: C does not require stacks.
2017-06-23T05:10:55Z jasom: White_Flame: stacks are not needed for leaf function calls on some ABIs
2017-06-23T05:10:55Z White_Flame: and one might consider exceptions being part of the function call abi
2017-06-23T05:11:02Z whoman: i mean at expansion time sorry =) that is, adds a level of language scope for every macro level. if that makes sense.
2017-06-23T05:11:04Z White_Flame: Zhivago: yeah, I'm talking about languages in general
2017-06-23T05:11:25Z White_Flame: unless you specifically meant that "*c* function-calling needs to run-time at all"
2017-06-23T05:11:55Z jasom: whoman: but if you run a tree-shaker, it's possible that your runtime won't even include the function READ.
2017-06-23T05:11:56Z White_Flame: *needs no run-time...
2017-06-23T05:12:07Z Zhivago: white_flame: What I mean is that there does not fundamentally need to be run-time support for function calls in C (or any other language).
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2017-06-23T05:12:40Z whoman: hmm. implementation level can be different all the time. forth does its own stack doesnt it? it can be written in C. C could also be written in forth or whatever. just levels of implementations i think , i cant find the line between one and another now
2017-06-23T05:12:46Z Zhivago: Although there does need to be run-time support for constructing function calls in CL for programs which use that.
2017-06-23T05:13:24Z White_Flame: the program counter doesn't enter any runtime utility during a function call/return mechanism itself, right
2017-06-23T05:13:30Z whoman: jasom, unless it is referenced in the code which the tree shaker shook ? why would it shake out used things. lets imagine no shaking!
2017-06-23T05:14:05Z White_Flame: well, I can think of one language where the runtime is invoked for function calls:  forth
2017-06-23T05:14:12Z White_Flame: at least in many classic implementations
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2017-06-23T05:14:19Z jasom: whoman: just mentioned that as a parallel to "C that isn't linked with libc"; teasing out the runtime from the standard-library is ill-defined
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2017-06-23T05:15:40Z whoman: objective-c too, for method invokation, uses runtime/library (which can be swapped, even the way objects are malloc'd can be rewired) for class lookup and such. i am not sure if even c++ has a runtime for method calls
2017-06-23T05:15:47Z Zhivago: That's because he still hasn't quite understood that the C standard library is part of the C implementation, and is not a C library.
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2017-06-23T05:16:35Z whoman: jasom, ahh, makes sense +)
2017-06-23T05:16:41Z jasom: whoman: C++ non-virtual methods are called just like any other function (fixed functions at link time).  Most C++ implementations give objects with virtual methods a table, and every object has a pointer to that table
2017-06-23T05:16:45Z White_Flame: though certainly there are parts of the C stdlib that could be built up as standard C functions on top of a "core" runtime, like string manipulation, higher-level I/O, etc
2017-06-23T05:16:52Z Zhivago: The only really important thing to take away from this is that there is nothing fundamentally special in the difference between C, lisp, etc, runtimes.
2017-06-23T05:17:01Z jasom: whoman: google for "vtable C++" or somesuch to learn more
2017-06-23T05:17:02Z whoman: jasom, ah yes, cool. so its quite thin if anything
2017-06-23T05:17:10Z whoman: alright
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2017-06-23T05:17:26Z White_Flame: because many programmers don't deal with the lower level stdlib calls, but mostly with those which would have a pure-C implementation, I could see that assumption as being a normal library
2017-06-23T05:17:48Z Zhivago: white_flame: An implementation is free to do that, or free to apply special optimizations. This is part of why you may not replace standard C functions with your own code.
2017-06-23T05:18:01Z White_Flame: yep
2017-06-23T05:18:15Z Zhivago: e.g., many systems will happily turn printf into puts.
2017-06-23T05:18:24Z jasom: struct foo = bar; may compile into memcpy()
2017-06-23T05:18:45Z jasom: memcpy() may be open-coded
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2017-06-23T05:22:12Z whoman: well. C doesnt appear at runtime. but lisp does. as garbage collection, as exceptions, as image loading and code loading. C isnt there anymore when the binary is running. sorry i dont think C has the same kind of runtime as lisp. in practice very different.
2017-06-23T05:22:43Z whoman: the bare minimum of stuff needed to put into an executable binary is one thing. all binaries have that
2017-06-23T05:23:21Z whoman: thats all.. i just wouldnt use the term 'runtime' with C
2017-06-23T05:23:21Z flip214: whoman: C has a calling convention, and this will turn up in the binaries.
2017-06-23T05:23:27Z White_Flame: the C runtime handles things like signals
2017-06-23T05:23:33Z flip214: Lisp has different conventions, that's all.
2017-06-23T05:23:36Z White_Flame: and floating point exceptions
2017-06-23T05:23:45Z whoman: White_Flame, operating system, im fairly sure
2017-06-23T05:23:48Z White_Flame: so it's not pure "library"
2017-06-23T05:24:14Z whoman: OS catches and deals with signals for C execs as any other unhandled one
2017-06-23T05:24:32Z whoman: its why we get segfaults. C didnt do that, the OS did
2017-06-23T05:25:20Z flip214: whoman: but the C runtime eg. catches signals _during_syscalls_ and retries them, for example.
2017-06-23T05:26:29Z Zhivago: C has no calling convention. A C implementation may have zero or more calling conventions.
2017-06-23T05:26:40Z White_Flame: also, while C stdlib might shuffle heap data structures around during free(), so you might consider that user-invoked rather than autonomous, the same thing happens in Lisp, where GC is usually invoked during allocation, instead of on its own
2017-06-23T05:27:07Z Zhivago: whoman: You're delusional. C does appear at runtime as memory management, as non-local transfers, as dynamic library linkage, as ...
2017-06-23T05:27:31Z Zhivago: whoman: While the details differ, the fundamental problems remain similar, as to the implementation strategies.
2017-06-23T05:27:48Z whoman: there is 'runtime library' and 'run-time system' i am reading about
2017-06-23T05:28:02Z Zhivago: Meaningless distinctions.
2017-06-23T05:29:05Z White_Flame: at least, there's semantic categories you can lump various parts of the runtime into, but that's about it
2017-06-23T05:29:20Z White_Flame: there's no technical strata there
2017-06-23T05:29:27Z whoman: the C runtime is just a library. lets not call people names, we already have enough trouble with the terminology we have going.
2017-06-23T05:29:35Z Zhivago: C defines the C Abstract Machine. Whatever parts of the CAM a C implementation doesn't realize at compilation time will be realized at run-time, and be part of the run-time overhead.
2017-06-23T05:29:57Z Zhivago: whoman: You're wrong. The C runtime is not just a library. You're just not listening.
2017-06-23T05:30:14Z Zhivago: I suspect that the problem may be that you don't really understand C well.
2017-06-23T05:30:32Z White_Flame: and there's a difference between "C the language" and "C in a particular implementation", or even "C in common implementation strategies"
2017-06-23T05:31:12Z White_Flame: you can have a C source code interpreter, and that could be fully valid C
2017-06-23T05:31:20Z whoman: i do not know how i have offended you sir but i notice now that you have begun to take this discussion personally. like i said i am trying to clarify some terms for myself, that was all. i have thanked you earlier already but i thank you again.
2017-06-23T05:31:50Z whoman: @Zhivago
2017-06-23T05:31:54Z White_Flame: *a fully valid C runtime environment
2017-06-23T05:32:01Z whoman: White_Flame, yeah, Quake-C etc. emscripten
2017-06-23T05:32:28Z Zhivago: whoman: You just keep repeating the same errors over and over without appearing to learn.
2017-06-23T05:33:34Z White_Flame: C is defined in such a way that it _should_ be able to collapse down to a very low-level, low-overhead model, but there's no guarantee of that
2017-06-23T05:33:39Z whoman: Zhivago, i think you are trying to call me stupid because you are jealous when i said i grew up on C. what does that mean to you? or is it something else? i do not wish to continue to "learn" with you. not the way you want.
2017-06-23T05:33:54Z White_Flame: therefore the assumptions of the stdlib you have tend to be around what implementations are usually like, not what C allows/defines
2017-06-23T05:34:02Z Zhivago: whoman: I see that you've found a new strategy to avoid learning. :)
2017-06-23T05:34:23Z Zhivago: whoman: If you grew up on C, answer this question. char d[3]; What is the type of d?
2017-06-23T05:34:34Z whoman: White_Flame, well, i remember the days when glibc was being rolled out, and i think it was able to be swapped without relinking a binary, afaik
2017-06-23T05:34:52Z White_Flame: ((moving the goalposts, by renaming c[3] to d[3]!!!1 ;) )
2017-06-23T05:35:11Z White_Flame: whoman: which is absolute an implementation-specific detail
2017-06-23T05:35:13Z Zhivago: Well, I thought the name c might have been confusing.
2017-06-23T05:35:15Z White_Flame: +ly
2017-06-23T05:35:27Z whoman: wow haha
2017-06-23T05:35:53Z whoman: io thought that question was a joke.
2017-06-23T05:36:08Z Zhivago: It's a simple question -- do you have an answer?
2017-06-23T05:36:17Z whoman: not a wierd fraternity test. sorry i failed. i would rather not want to pass that. lets just grow up ok?
2017-06-23T05:36:37Z Zhivago: Well, like I said, I suspect that the real problem is that you don't understand C very well.
2017-06-23T05:36:52Z whoman: i didnt think it was serious at first so i avoided it. i was busy learning and exploring and figuring stuff out.
2017-06-23T05:37:12Z Zhivago: And that believing that you do understand C very well is preventing you from learning.
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2017-06-23T05:37:21Z whoman: good for you, that does not affect me. i have no reason to prove anything to you. can we continue ? i am going to read mezzano code for a bit. thanks for the link
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2017-06-23T05:37:50Z beach: Very few people have actually read the C standard, so there are a lot of (usually incorrect) assumptions about what C really is.
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2017-06-23T05:39:37Z White_Flame: beach: one could even say the same about Common Lisp ;)
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2017-06-23T05:39:53Z beach: About anything, really. :)
2017-06-23T05:39:54Z whoman: no im good. i know what i know. but i didnt know that a big part of the discussion was hostile. which i cant learn with
2017-06-23T05:40:06Z White_Flame: being that it's a slow interpreted language with only lists as datastructures
2017-06-23T05:40:30Z beach: White_Flame: You forgot about atoms. :)
2017-06-23T05:40:47Z White_Flame: atoms aren't datastructures, they're only symbols and sometimes numbers
2017-06-23T05:40:49Z beach: White_Flame: You obviously don't know squat about Common Lisp.
2017-06-23T05:41:18Z beach: White_Flame: Your definition of "data structure" is wrong. :)
2017-06-23T05:41:20Z Zhivago: No, atoms are everything other than lists -- but you're right that they're not datastructures, they're syntax.
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2017-06-23T05:41:30Z beach: etc, etc, etc.
2017-06-23T05:41:36Z White_Flame slaps a big "/s" over everything
2017-06-23T05:41:53Z beach: White_Flame: Sorry.  Couldn't resist.
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2017-06-23T05:42:10Z White_Flame: this is often too pedantic of a channel for humor.  but it doesn't stop me :)
2017-06-23T05:42:12Z Zhivago: Although the confusing is understandable since CL overloads the representations. :)
2017-06-23T05:43:10Z krwq: i just came back and realized i started endless subject
2017-06-23T05:43:41Z krwq: I can't believe this conversation is going for 4h ^^
2017-06-23T05:44:33Z White_Flame: nah, vtomole started the runtime thing, and isn't even here anymore
2017-06-23T05:44:37Z beach: krwq: Actually, I think vtomole triggered it.
2017-06-23T05:44:39Z White_Flame: (at least in this latest incarnation)
2017-06-23T05:44:45Z krwq: inception
2017-06-23T05:45:21Z krwq: you were right you can keep on splitting every data structure
2017-06-23T05:45:51Z krwq: sounds like cons should be an atom
2017-06-23T05:46:17Z White_Flame renames "bits" to "strings"
2017-06-23T05:46:47Z White_Flame: string theory vocabulary applied to programming languages would really mess up character-string naming
2017-06-23T05:47:25Z krwq: we could just call it text
2017-06-23T05:47:44Z Zhivago: (And get rid of the character types)
2017-06-23T05:47:48Z White_Flame: true, "string" is really weird old lingo that could use an overhaul
2017-06-23T05:47:58Z White_Flame: though "character" is still reasonable
2017-06-23T05:48:19Z Zhivago: Well, we could have a four hour discussion about why character isn't reasonable, if you like.
2017-06-23T05:48:20Z krwq: lisp messes with my brain
2017-06-23T05:48:32Z White_Flame: and because of BASIC as a kid, I often pronoune the "$" character as "string".  eg "A$" is "A-String"
2017-06-23T05:49:13Z Zhivago: Didn't basic use $X ?
2017-06-23T05:49:24Z White_Flame: home computer basic was X$
2017-06-23T05:49:50Z White_Flame: in all incarnations I've seen
2017-06-23T05:50:06Z White_Flame: not sure about university basic that predated that
2017-06-23T05:50:38Z Zhivago: Hmm, it looks like it was generally X$. Nifty.
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2017-06-23T06:04:19Z Zhivago: One thing I have come to appreciate more is having things like variables lexically distinct from syntactic elements.
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2017-06-23T06:05:39Z Zhivago: Prolog does a reasonable job of that.
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2017-06-23T08:38:05Z ParrotSec_: i have a server list in a specific format and need to filter out specific servers without loosing whatever content is below there server address/title, for example "stanzas\ninfo1...\ninfo2...\nstatus...\nadmins...\nusers...\ntotal_logins...\nban_list...\nwhite_list...\nblacklist...\n" and so on for each server, how would i do so and what "tool" would be best suited for the task
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2017-06-23T08:39:10Z beach: ParrotSec_: That's not a "list".  It is a single string where entries appear to be separated by newlines.
2017-06-23T08:39:51Z ParrotSec_: still
2017-06-23T08:40:11Z beach: ParrotSec_: If you can't influence that data structure, you will need to move contents around to "compact" the entries.
2017-06-23T08:40:17Z beach: clhs replace
2017-06-23T08:40:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm
2017-06-23T08:40:22Z ParrotSec_: technically everything that is percieved as a list is just seperated by \n
2017-06-23T08:40:46Z beach: Do you mean by #\Newline?
2017-06-23T08:41:10Z beach: Or is it literally a backslash followed by a lower-case #\n character?
2017-06-23T08:42:44Z ParrotSec_: say every server name contains <servername>:80 or something similar that is unique from its contents
2017-06-23T08:43:34Z beach: If all you have is a single string, you are going to have to move characters around, and REPLACE is probably the best tool for that.  But what you have is not a great data structure for this kind of manipulation.  Of course, if the length of the string is not too great, then it probably won't matter much.
2017-06-23T08:45:28Z beach: To find the place in the string of a particular sub-string, you could use SEARCH.
2017-06-23T08:45:31Z beach: clhs search
2017-06-23T08:45:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm
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2017-06-23T08:52:18Z ParrotSec_: something like this https://bpaste.net/raw/e0bf268ab31a
2017-06-23T08:53:58Z beach: ParrotSec_: I gave you the tools.  I am afraid I don't have the time to implement it for you.  But if you have more questions, I'll be happy to answer them if I can.
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2017-06-23T08:56:32Z beach: Hmm.
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2017-06-23T09:07:28Z beach: ParrotSec_: Like I said, I gave you the tools.  I am afraid I don't have the time to implement it for you.  But if you have more questions, I'll be happy to answer them if I can.
2017-06-23T09:08:07Z beach: ParrotSec_: Or, if you paste an initial attempt, we can figure it out.
2017-06-23T09:08:20Z ParrotSec_: but it sounds like u think i just want to grep or replace only the server name
2017-06-23T09:08:57Z beach: I guess maybe I misunderstood what you want to do.
2017-06-23T09:09:12Z beach: It sounded like you wanted to remove some entries.
2017-06-23T09:10:21Z beach: You would then have to search for the position of the server name, and the position of the first following double newline.  Given those positions, you would move all the characters following the last of those two position to the first of those two positions.  No?
2017-06-23T09:11:38Z beach: Or perhaps you want to extract an entry?  Same thing.  Find those two positions and use SUBSEQ to extract the entry.
2017-06-23T09:12:30Z beach: You didn't define what "filter out" means, so I am only guessing.
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2017-06-23T09:22:51Z ParrotSec_: finally got it to work in place of my original example
2017-06-23T09:22:59Z ParrotSec_: http://bpaste.net/raw/6418ae207e3f
2017-06-23T09:23:08Z ParrotSec_: thats my current method
2017-06-23T09:23:26Z beach: This doesn't look like Common Lisp.
2017-06-23T09:23:50Z beach: Perhaps you are in the wrong channel?
2017-06-23T09:24:06Z ParrotSec_: i know, im saying can lisp achieve what bash cannot
2017-06-23T09:24:56Z beach: For starters, it would be good to know exactly what it is that you want to do, i.e. what you mean by "filter out".
2017-06-23T09:25:35Z ParrotSec_: look at the output and u should be able to figure it out
2017-06-23T09:25:38Z beach: Common Lisp is a general-purpose Turing-complete language, so unless you are trying to solve some undecidable problem, it should be possible.
2017-06-23T09:26:06Z phoe: ParrotSec_: no, it's not obvious judging from the output
2017-06-23T09:26:49Z beach: ParrotSec_: I'll leave that to someone who feels he or she has the time to wade through all that stuff, which is unrelated to Common Lisp on top of that.
2017-06-23T09:26:57Z phoe: you're telling me to guess what a tool does from 340 lines of completely alien output
2017-06-23T09:27:11Z ParrotSec_: it is marked at OUTPUT:
2017-06-23T09:27:15Z phoe: yes, I know
2017-06-23T09:27:18Z phoe: and it's 340 lines long
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2017-06-23T09:27:29Z phoe: and you are unwilling to explain what it does and instead tell me to read it and guess it myself.
2017-06-23T09:27:41Z phoe: that's not a good attitude for asking for help, really
2017-06-23T09:27:44Z ParrotSec_: the problem lies with the the second read loop "server_port80/stanzas is ACCAPTABLE
2017-06-23T09:27:44Z ParrotSec_: IGNORING server_port80/stanzas"
2017-06-23T09:27:58Z ParrotSec_: and i dont know why it is happaning
2017-06-23T09:28:01Z phoe: ParrotSec_: why are you telling me to help me with bash?
2017-06-23T09:28:04Z beach: ParrotSec_: Good luck!
2017-06-23T09:28:27Z phoe: ParrotSec_: #bash is more likely to help you with bash things.
2017-06-23T09:28:49Z ParrotSec_: i know but im banned from there
2017-06-23T09:29:07Z phoe: >be banned from #bash
2017-06-23T09:29:10Z phoe: >go ask for bash help on #lisp
2017-06-23T09:29:27Z phoe: I'm sorry, but your bans are none of my concern.
2017-06-23T09:29:42Z phoe: I'd suggest you settle it with #bash operators and get yourself unbanned.
2017-06-23T09:29:57Z phoe: And ask for help there.
2017-06-23T09:31:07Z ParrotSec_: how
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2017-06-23T09:32:03Z phoe: It seems that a person with a nickname candide is an operator of #bash. You can query them in private and ask them the question.
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2017-06-23T09:40:53Z ParrotSec_: actually it is a bot
2017-06-23T09:44:44Z phoe:  /msg ChanServ access #bash list
2017-06-23T09:44:55Z phoe: this is a full list of #bash operators.
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2017-06-23T09:55:10Z dim: with Emacs/SLIME is there a way to see/interact/debug currently running threads?
2017-06-23T09:55:27Z dim: to list them, I am using C-c C-x t
2017-06-23T09:55:51Z scymtym: dim: d to debug, k to kill in thread list
2017-06-23T09:55:57Z dim: ahah, d then
2017-06-23T09:56:00Z dim: awesome
2017-06-23T09:56:27Z scymtym: also, you have to manually refresh the thread list using g
2017-06-23T09:57:46Z dim: Backtrace:
2017-06-23T09:57:47Z dim:   0: ("bogus stack frame")
2017-06-23T09:57:47Z dim:   1: ((FLET #:WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS-BODY-637 :IN SB-THREAD::%CONDITION-WAIT))
2017-06-23T09:57:47Z dim:   2: (SB-THREAD:CONDITION-WAIT #<SB-THREAD:WAITQUEUE Anonymous condition variable {10044081F3}> #<SB-THREAD:MUTEX "Anonymous lock" (free)> $
2017-06-23T09:58:02Z dim: I'm impressed that I can get live information that easily
2017-06-23T09:58:14Z dim: then I need to understand why things are blocked
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2017-06-23T10:01:13Z dim: 6: (QMYND-IMPL::READ-WHOLE-CHUNK 67 #<QMYND-IMPL::MY-PACKET-STREAM 0/67 [209]>)
2017-06-23T10:01:33Z dim: I think I found the blocker, it would again be the Qmynd MySQL driver
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2017-06-23T10:05:22Z dim: sbcl    9477  root   10u  IPv4 149607      0t0  TCP localhost.localdomain:52316->localhost.localdomain:mysql (CLOSE_WAIT)
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2017-06-23T10:12:21Z p_l: anyone using AllegroCL on windows and could suggest a way to make it open different browser than IE for everything in docs?
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2017-06-23T10:15:21Z flip214: p_l: do you know that a different browser is installed?
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2017-06-23T10:15:32Z jonssons: I'd like to thank the author of "Practical Common Lisp" for open sourcing his book with monetary value. However,  I do not want to pay taxes by purchasing the book. Any way I can send money to the author?
2017-06-23T10:15:58Z p_l: flip214: yes (Chrome), and there appears to be an option of embedded browser when writing CG GUIs
2017-06-23T10:16:00Z flip214: p_l: ie. can you be sure that eg. firefox or chrome will be installed?
2017-06-23T10:16:16Z flip214: oh, so you don't want to open a normal chrome window?
2017-06-23T10:16:18Z p_l: flip214: this is on my dev machine, and I'm concerned about IDE
2017-06-23T10:16:26Z p_l: flip214: normal chrome windows would be better than IE windows
2017-06-23T10:17:32Z flip214: I'd suggest to open regedt32, and look in HKLM/Software/Classes/.html/OpenWithProgIDs
2017-06-23T10:17:47Z p_l: flip214: Chrome is already the default
2017-06-23T10:17:54Z p_l: ACL seems to open IE on purpose :/
2017-06-23T10:18:26Z phoe: jonssons: hm
2017-06-23T10:18:49Z phoe: the author is available around here under the nickname gigamonkey
2017-06-23T10:18:56Z flip214: p_l: yeah, but there should be a reference to chrome available...
2017-06-23T10:19:07Z jonssons: thanks phoe
2017-06-23T10:19:08Z phoe: and if anything, there's a mail address over at http://gigamonkeys.com/
2017-06-23T10:19:16Z flip214: oh, this question is about changed the ACL default for a browser?
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2017-06-23T10:19:32Z flip214: p_l: (apropos "browser")?
2017-06-23T10:19:35Z jonssons: phoe: oh there is. now I feel silly, thanks :)
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2017-06-23T10:19:55Z flip214: perhaps there's a special for that purpose, already...
2017-06-23T10:20:09Z p_l: flip214: that's where I started going at the same time I wrote here :D
2017-06-23T10:20:18Z phoe: jonssons: no problem
2017-06-23T10:20:23Z p_l: I think I finally found the class that does ide configuration
2017-06-23T10:21:00Z flip214: oh, okay.
2017-06-23T10:21:40Z p_l: ehh, it's use-cg-html-browser in ide.base:ide-configuration
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2017-06-23T10:22:19Z p_l: in (ide.base::restore-configuration one needs to have :user-cg-html-browser t
2017-06-23T10:22:26Z flip214: sorry, I thought this to be more of a windows question and not so distinctly for ACL
2017-06-23T10:22:35Z p_l: it's not exported in GUI in the windows IDE
2017-06-23T10:22:39Z p_l: flip214: hah, happens
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2017-06-23T10:22:50Z p_l: I usually don't do much on windows but current job means windows...
2017-06-23T10:23:15Z p_l: and I decided I don't want to use Python for few things ;)
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2017-06-23T12:11:39Z python476: hi
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2017-06-23T12:19:07Z beach: Hello python476.
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2017-06-23T14:59:15Z drmeister: Is this a valid LOOP macro?
2017-06-23T14:59:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0dKLEaOk/
2017-06-23T14:59:31Z drmeister: I want to  use COLLECT before UNTIL
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2017-06-23T15:00:06Z drmeister: What I have is a double linked list p5 -> ... -> p3
2017-06-23T15:00:20Z drmeister: I traverse the list in the forward direction using (forward-node cur)
2017-06-23T15:00:32Z drmeister: I want to collect p5, everything-in-between, p3
2017-06-23T15:01:15Z drmeister: It's going to take me a little while to test this - so I'm asking about it here.
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2017-06-23T15:06:27Z phoe: drmeister: it seems so.
2017-06-23T15:06:28Z phoe: clhs loop
2017-06-23T15:06:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2017-06-23T15:06:34Z phoe: main-clause::= unconditional | accumulation | conditional | termination-test | initial-final
2017-06-23T15:06:49Z dim: looks like it's correct drmeister, can you write a small test?
2017-06-23T15:06:50Z beach: drmeister: Are you sure you want FOR on the first 2 lines?
2017-06-23T15:06:51Z phoe: so COLLECT which is an accumulation clause can happen before UNTIL which is a conditional clause.
2017-06-23T15:07:23Z dim: I've sure done loop-collect-until in this order before yes
2017-06-23T15:07:47Z beach: drmeister: Wait, is this an infinite loop?
2017-06-23T15:08:28Z beach: drmeister: When does the outer loop finish?
2017-06-23T15:08:30Z drmeister: Thank you.
2017-06-23T15:08:36Z dim: here's an example in the same vein, albeit with other clauses https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/7f55b21044047469413ab0e6b905a0e07f26ba9a
2017-06-23T15:09:23Z drmeister: Yes, I think I want for in the first two lines.   Each strand is an instance of a class that has a 'p5-end' slot and a 'p3-end' slot.   They describe the first and last (inclusive) nodes in a doubly linked list.
2017-06-23T15:09:38Z beach: drmeister: When does the outer loop finish?
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2017-06-23T15:09:53Z drmeister: The nodes in between are accessed using (forward-node cur) starting from the p5-end and stopping when you hit the p3-end.
2017-06-23T15:09:57Z beach: drmeister: Also, nothing gets returned it seems.
2017-06-23T15:10:33Z beach: drmeister: I am asking about the OUTER loop, not the inner.
2017-06-23T15:10:35Z Fade: collect it into a variable that is explicityly returned into the outer loop?
2017-06-23T15:10:46Z drmeister: Ok, hang on - in cutting the example down I mangled it.
2017-06-23T15:10:47Z Fade: s/into/in
2017-06-23T15:11:11Z beach: drmeister: Fix the indentation as well please.
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2017-06-23T15:14:10Z drmeister: Sorry, sorry - here's the fixed version.
2017-06-23T15:14:11Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349339#1
2017-06-23T15:14:19Z drmeister: I'm trying to move too fast.
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2017-06-23T15:15:02Z drmeister: What I needed to know was the main-clause::= unconditional | accumulation | conditional | termination-test | initial-final
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2017-06-23T15:20:16Z phoe: drmeister: well
2017-06-23T15:20:23Z phoe: I'll gladly recommend CLHS to you ;)
2017-06-23T15:20:50Z drmeister: I know - I was a bit lazy and I was showing a colleague #lisp.
2017-06-23T15:21:25Z beach feels exploited.
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2017-06-23T15:22:21Z drmeister: Please don't - I was showing a colleague that he can ask questions in #lisp and I'm explaining that you should do your homework first and look things up in the CLHS.
2017-06-23T15:22:22Z Fade: (make-instance 'beach :state :exploited)
2017-06-23T15:22:39Z drmeister: I explained that by asking a stupid question that I had kicked a bees nest and now I need to apologize.
2017-06-23T15:22:41Z drmeister: :-)
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2017-06-23T15:22:57Z Fade: :)
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2017-06-23T15:24:46Z drmeister: What is the name of the lisp for beginners irc channel?   #lispcafe?
2017-06-23T15:25:40Z beach: #lispnoobs or something like that.
2017-06-23T15:26:04Z beach: #clnoobs it seems
2017-06-23T15:26:07Z Fade: iirc #lispcafe is for offtopic chat.
2017-06-23T15:26:25Z beach: I get plenty of hits in the logs for #clnoobs.
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2017-06-23T16:02:45Z didi: Funny thought: I am computing the number of days between 2 dates by subtracting their universal-time and returning the quotient of it divided by 86400. But, with enough leap seconds, it will start to drift away. (as my unit measurement is a day, some leap second won't mess with calculations)
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2017-06-23T16:08:54Z _death: not just leap seconds.. some days have 23 hours, others 25
2017-06-23T16:09:11Z didi: waaat
2017-06-23T16:09:30Z didi: Ah, savings time?
2017-06-23T16:09:43Z didi: I didn't think of them. Dang.
2017-06-23T16:10:22Z _death: and there are more issues, of course
2017-06-23T16:10:29Z didi: stawp
2017-06-23T16:11:16Z _death: there's A Long, Painful History of Time
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2017-06-23T16:11:59Z didi: Cool, it is an article.
2017-06-23T16:12:05Z didi: Story time.
2017-06-23T16:12:10Z didi: _death: Thanks.
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2017-06-23T16:38:29Z dim: the article is awesome
2017-06-23T16:39:00Z dim: in particular the parts where the history takes an important play into how to best implement the internal time representation
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2017-06-23T16:41:44Z _death: there is also a book on my wishlist, Calendrical Calculations, by Edward Reingold, who also wrote the Emacs calendar package
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2017-06-23T16:56:19Z jasom: didi: unix times to not include leap-seconds, GPS time does.  At one point Android's clocks were 25s off for this reason.
2017-06-23T16:57:47Z jasom: Also, if it's 11pm you need to wait 13 hours for it to be 12pm
2017-06-23T16:58:16Z pjb: A very interesting subject, notably if you plan to program a time-machine navigation software.
2017-06-23T16:58:48Z pjb: It's probably the reason why we don't see more time travellers: it's not that they don't exist, it's that they're lost in time!
2017-06-23T16:59:17Z jasom: pjb: and depending how inertia works when changing time, they could easily be lost in space too
2017-06-23T16:59:34Z _death: we're all time travelers
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2017-06-23T17:00:46Z pjb: jasom: yep. Since fundamentally, you will have to get the absolute positions and movement relative to the whole universe (which is hard to determine because of the light cone).
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2017-06-23T17:16:02Z aeth: What if people have attempted time travel, but get the position of the Earth wrong?
2017-06-23T17:16:32Z aeth: They try to go back to ancient Rome but wind up going back to that time, but the Earth is in a different place in space.
2017-06-23T17:18:35Z pjb: Probably it's safer to do it in "empty" space, and travel back to Earth(t=t₁) with your space ship.
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2017-06-23T17:19:04Z aeth: How do you know that you won't wind up in the middle of a star?
2017-06-23T17:19:17Z pjb: You don't, but the probability is low.
2017-06-23T17:19:18Z _death: most space is "empty"
2017-06-23T17:19:24Z pjb: Also, it may be possible to use probes.
2017-06-23T17:19:46Z pjb: I'd be more worried by asteroid fields.
2017-06-23T17:20:44Z _death: nowadays, a lisp machine is a poor man's time machine anyway :)
2017-06-23T17:21:15Z kefin_: Why does concatenate require a type as its first arg??? O_O
2017-06-23T17:21:29Z aeth: in case anyone is wondering about how Lisp handles time, it has two ways. Something *almost* like a reverse-ordered ISO 8601 but as multiple return values, as well as non-leap-seconds since 1900. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_un.htm
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2017-06-23T17:22:02Z aeth: The distinction is afaik that ISO 8601 doesn't take daylight savings time into account, you move the offset, but in CL the offset is constant but with a boolean DST flag.
2017-06-23T17:22:21Z aeth: So your Lisp time machine will fail due to leap seconds, probably.
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2017-06-23T17:29:12Z _death: come december, one can replay cl-su-ai mails and have people join the discussion
2017-06-23T17:31:16Z _death: a 36-years shift, without the risk of hypoxia
2017-06-23T17:32:34Z _death: finally nonamericans will have a word ;)
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2017-06-23T18:35:10Z dlowe: kefin_: concatenate can return all kinds of sequences.
2017-06-23T18:35:47Z kefin_: dlowe: it could find out for itself tho
2017-06-23T18:37:39Z Bike: (concatenate 'list "hello " #(#\w #\o #\r #\l #\d))
2017-06-23T18:37:40Z _death: it could.. (defun my-concatenate (&rest sequences) (apply #'concatenate (prompt "What result type?") sequences))
2017-06-23T18:38:56Z _death: if you get tired of answering, an the answer is always the same, just hardcode it
2017-06-23T18:38:57Z dlowe: kefin_: yeah, it doesn't know which kind you want
2017-06-23T18:39:19Z dlowe: (defun strcat (&rest strs) (apply 'concatenate 'string strs))
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2017-06-23T18:50:07Z pjb: Notice that nothing prevents your implementation to provide a compiler-macro on concatenate (and map, etc), to optimize out the cases where the return type is known at compilation-time.
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2017-06-23T23:10:14Z rmrenner: Hey everyone. I've been looking at parenscript lately
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2017-06-23T23:11:34Z rmrenner: So in javascript, it's much more common to have functions called purely for their side-effects, and obviously sometimes these function calls end up being the final statement in a function
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2017-06-23T23:12:48Z rmrenner: So how do you keep parenscript from automatically sticking a return before the last statement in a function?
2017-06-23T23:13:36Z rmrenner: As an example, I'm looking at using parenscript to generate files that work with p5, the javascript implementation of processing
2017-06-23T23:14:35Z rmrenner: A simple setup function would look like function setup() { createCanvas(640 480); }
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2017-06-23T23:16:47Z rmrenner: However, if you write: (defun setup () (create-canvas 640 480)), parenscript generates function setup() { return createCanvas(640 480); }
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2017-06-23T23:19:56Z _death: so?
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2017-06-23T23:20:44Z Bike: nothing obvious in the manual. you could just return some useless value as a shim
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2017-06-23T23:23:30Z rmrenner: Yeah, it struck me as a weird omission since js functions don't necessarily return anything. The manual says "void" is a reserved word, but I couldn't find any info on what it's used for.
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2017-06-23T23:35:43Z rmrenner: Turns out this question has been raised on stackoverflow: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/28148147/parenscript-and-implicit-return
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2017-06-23T23:52:28Z jasom just found out a coworker has a symbolics machine at home
2017-06-23T23:52:50Z jasom: drives are dead, but is otherwise suspected to be functional
2017-06-23T23:53:09Z pjb: Drives can be replaced.  There are interfaces to USB.
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2017-06-23T23:56:09Z pjb: Assuming it's SCSI, SCSI to USB adapters are about 20 euro.
2017-06-23T23:57:12Z jasom: I doubt I'll be able to talk him out of it anyways
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2017-06-24T00:05:12Z pjb: If he wants to keep it, he will want to repair it, won't he?
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2017-06-24T04:28:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-24T04:29:39Z vtomole: beach: Good day beach.
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2017-06-24T04:30:54Z beach: vtomole: I am re-reading that paper about allocators, just because it is so good :)
2017-06-24T04:32:51Z vtomole: beach: How do you make time for those kinds of things? I always feel like there's too much to learn. It's overwhelming.
2017-06-24T04:34:01Z beach: vtomole: It takes practice to become efficient.  I have had a lot of practice.
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2017-06-24T04:36:25Z vtomole: beach: Ha! The paper mentions that there is difference between a heap and a heap data structure. It has always bothered me how they are the same name..
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2017-06-24T04:40:40Z beach: It's a common problem.
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2017-06-24T04:58:47Z beach: vtomole: By the way, I was very serious about what I said the other day.  If you want to become very good at what you do, then you should begin a systematic activity of learning about all this stuff, like garbage collection, compilation, computer architecture, etc.
2017-06-24T04:58:48Z beach: I personally think that every software developer should know about these things just in order to avoid making the wrong decisions.
2017-06-24T05:00:11Z vtomole: beach: I took an architecture class last semester, but thats all the experience I have with it. We studied MIPS.
2017-06-24T05:00:23Z beach: That's a good start.
2017-06-24T05:00:45Z beach: It may take a decade or so to get up to speed, but then the incremental work to keep it up is not so bad.
2017-06-24T05:01:11Z beach: For architecture, I recommend you read about SLE (Speculative Lock Elision)
2017-06-24T05:01:42Z beach: Many people avoid locks because they think they are expensive.  With SLE, they are much cheaper these days.
2017-06-24T05:02:10Z vtomole: I can put a decade into this stuff, I'm 20. It's hard for me to read books. I like to start writing code ASAP.
2017-06-24T05:02:21Z vtomole: I've been thinkin g about learning ARM 64
2017-06-24T05:02:37Z vtomole: Cause x86 seems to complicated
2017-06-24T05:02:41Z vtomole: *too
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2017-06-24T05:03:39Z beach: Unless you have direct access to the author, sometimes reading a book or a paper is the only solution.  You might as well try to get used to it.
2017-06-24T05:04:06Z Bike: arm is also pretty complicated, but you probably won't break down sobbing if you try to write an instruction decoder
2017-06-24T05:04:34Z beach: I was lucky to have direct access both to Paul Wilson and to Jim Goodman.
2017-06-24T05:06:13Z vtomole: beach: This? http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~rajwar/papers/micro01.pdf
2017-06-24T05:06:25Z beach: Yes.
2017-06-24T05:07:22Z beach: Goodman was (probably still is) at the university of Auckland when I was visiting there for a year.  I audited his advanced architecture class.
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2017-06-24T05:10:38Z vtomole: beach: How long does it usually take you to do enough research to write a paper?
2017-06-24T05:12:39Z beach: That's very hard to say.  It varies a lot.  And it is not concentrated time.  More than a month full time I would say.
2017-06-24T05:15:21Z vtomole: beach: It's a Common Lisp channel, but i did find that the Go garbage collector has sub-millisecond pauses.
2017-06-24T05:15:34Z vtomole: beach: Seems to be good enough for real-time
2017-06-24T05:16:17Z beach: For most applications, that's good enough, yes.  Even for applications involving sound, that's usually good enough.
2017-06-24T05:16:49Z vtomole: How do i test gc? Like find the pauses for SBCL?
2017-06-24T05:18:05Z beach: Good question.  I don't know.  SBCL's garbage collector is not very recent, and it is pretty basic technology from several decades ago.
2017-06-24T05:18:44Z pjb: (loop for i from 0 for c = nil then (cons nil c) when (zerop (mod i 1000000)) (setf c nil))
2017-06-24T05:18:55Z pjb: ie. make garbage.
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2017-06-24T05:19:55Z beach: vtomole: This paper: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf suggests a GC technique that has bounded pauses.
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2017-06-24T05:27:17Z vtomole: pjb: when i run that code "#1=(SETF C NIL) found where keyword expected getting LOOP clause after WHEN current LOOP context: WHEN (ZEROP (MOD I 1000000)) #1#."
2017-06-24T05:27:42Z beach: He forgot a DO.
2017-06-24T05:28:04Z beach: DO (setf c nil)
2017-06-24T05:48:45Z vtomole: haha It's been 15 mins and the loop hasn't stopped.
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2017-06-24T05:55:12Z Bike: there's no halt condition, it just makes garbage continously
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2017-06-24T06:00:48Z beach: vtomole: Perhaps you should run it while the statistical profiler is active.
2017-06-24T06:01:56Z vtomole: sbcl's profiler?
2017-06-24T06:02:03Z beach: sb-sprof.
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2017-06-24T06:05:23Z vtomole: Profiler sample vector full (38 traces / 1000 samples), doubling the size
2017-06-24T06:07:24Z beach: What you want to do is very SBCL specific.  Maybe you need to ask in #sbcl.
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2017-06-24T06:07:34Z pjb: you can add a repeat 1000000000  to make it stop eventually.
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2017-06-24T06:09:08Z vtomole: beach: #sbcl is usually quite, and sometimes hostile if it's not haha
2017-06-24T06:09:16Z vtomole: *quiet
2017-06-24T06:09:43Z beach: Hmm.  I see.
2017-06-24T06:13:00Z beach: vtomole: I have a better one for you...
2017-06-24T06:13:19Z beach: (loop repeat 1000000000 for i from 0 for c = nil then (cons nil c) when (zerop (mod i 10000000)) do (setf c nil) (time (gc)))
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2017-06-24T06:14:24Z beach: For that particular load, it looks like the garbage collector takes 0.1 and 0.3 seconds.
2017-06-24T06:15:30Z vtomole: CONS cells always go on the heap?
2017-06-24T06:15:35Z beach: Yes.
2017-06-24T06:15:48Z beach: I am guessing the difference has to do with how many generations are being collected.
2017-06-24T06:16:10Z beach: SBCL has a pretty standard generational copying collector as I recall.
2017-06-24T06:17:19Z vtomole: And the stack is for.. local variables and functions?
2017-06-24T06:17:42Z beach: Not functions usually.
2017-06-24T06:18:31Z beach: Anything with dynamic extent can go on the stack.  Whether the SBCL compiler allocates such things on the stack is a different matter.  A simple compiler would not bother.
2017-06-24T06:19:34Z jasom: IIRC sbcl pathologically allocates such things on the stack
2017-06-24T06:19:48Z beach: "such things"?
2017-06-24T06:19:56Z jasom: beach: things declared with dynamic extent
2017-06-24T06:20:17Z beach: I see.  Yes, I believe it takes the programmer's word for it.
2017-06-24T06:21:00Z jasom: and you can actually lose mutator throughput due to the low cost of garbage in an sbcl nursery collection by declaring things dynamic extent
2017-06-24T06:21:40Z beach: Interesting.
2017-06-24T06:23:10Z beach: vtomole: One more thing you need to know: with a copying collector, the time for a garbage collection is proportional to the size of live data.  It does not touch any dead objects.
2017-06-24T06:23:29Z jasom: vtomole: besides things declared with dynamic extent, in sbcl the stack is used for storing temporary values, call frames, and foreign stack values.  On some architectures there are separate control and data stacks in sbcl; x86 does not do this because prior to amd64 it lacked sufficient registers (and even at 16 registers, you get a performance hit for having split stacks)
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2017-06-24T06:24:48Z jasom: the advantage of a split stack is that one of the two stacks (and half the registers) were dedicated to storing and tagged values, while the other was dedicated to storing unboxed values, so you have precise roots for garbage collection.
2017-06-24T06:25:02Z jasom: s/storing and/storing
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2017-06-24T06:31:32Z beach: jasom: You can have precise roots anyway.  The compiler "knows" which registers contain tagged values and which ones don't.  It is just that the SBCL compiler does not make that information available to the garbage collector.
2017-06-24T06:32:10Z jasom: beach: right; doing so efficiently seems challenging, particularly in multithreaded situations.
2017-06-24T06:32:22Z beach: Why?
2017-06-24T06:33:27Z beach: It would be sufficient to have a table that maps values of program counters to a description of register contents.
2017-06-24T06:33:40Z jasom: and stack contents?
2017-06-24T06:33:54Z beach: Each stack frame has a PC value, no?
2017-06-24T06:34:14Z jasom: right, but I don't think there is a 1-to-1 mapping of the stack frame to registers
2017-06-24T06:34:29Z jasom: I haven't looked at sbcl, but in a typical C compiler there definitely aren't
2017-06-24T06:34:51Z beach: There ought to be such a mapping from PC values to contents of stack frame and registers.
2017-06-24T06:35:36Z jasom: I suppose, though it might not be true in the case of tail-call elimination
2017-06-24T06:35:45Z jasom: since stack frames get reused without changing the return address
2017-06-24T06:36:34Z beach: It has to be true, or else, the code that follows the PC value would occasionally do the wrong thing.
2017-06-24T06:36:46Z jasom: hmm, you're right
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2017-06-24T06:37:06Z jasom: whatever code pops from the stack knows implicitly what it is popping
2017-06-24T06:37:42Z beach: Yes.  And it suffices to have the compiler make this information available.
2017-06-24T06:38:58Z beach: In fact, I am surprised that this hasn't been done a long time ago, and I never see it mentioned when SBCL is being talked about.  Instead, I hear the argument about splitting the registers.
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2017-06-24T06:44:06Z jasom: It would be a lot of work; sbcl was doomed by it's history on targets with a lot of registers (I think sparc had the fewest of its pre-x86 targets)
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2017-06-24T06:44:31Z jasom: The PERQ workstation had 256 GPRs
2017-06-24T06:44:57Z jasom: and by sparc I meant power
2017-06-24T06:45:06Z beach: I understand.
2017-06-24T06:45:25Z jasom: both are 31-ish but sparc is confusing because of register windows
2017-06-24T06:47:39Z beach: Yes, I remember register windows.  For performance, one had better not take advantage of them. :)
2017-06-24T06:47:51Z jasom is now wondering how context switching works on sparc
2017-06-24T06:49:06Z jasom: The architecture allows up to 640 64-bit registers according to wikipedia; that would imply a rather large TCB
2017-06-24T06:49:40Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-06-24T06:53:27Z beach: It is good to know that I am not the only one thinking that SBCL is "doomed" (in that it will be hard to make it evolve according to new architectures, new GC techniques, new generic dispatch techniques, etc).  My thinking that is the reason why I started SICL.
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2017-06-24T06:55:25Z jasom: I looked into implementing a relatively simple incremental GC on top of SBCL; it's not ... impossible ... but it's certainly quite challenging, and it wouldn't get you as close to a concurrent one as I would like since a large amount of SBCL's code just disables the GC for a window.
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2017-06-24T06:56:28Z jasom: but any non-stop-the-world, moving, GC breaks the assumption that eq is a pointer comparison
2017-06-24T06:57:01Z beach: Won't GC "safe points" fix that?
2017-06-24T06:57:02Z JuanDaugherty: llvm backend doesn't address?
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2017-06-24T06:57:18Z JuanDaugherty: (if it were taken srsly)
2017-06-24T06:57:41Z beach: JuanDaugherty: I don't understand your question.
2017-06-24T06:57:43Z JuanDaugherty: (wrt doom)
2017-06-24T06:58:25Z jasom: beach: the point is that sbcl spends a lot of time transitioning in-and-out of safe points, which is bad for low-pause GCs
2017-06-24T06:58:40Z JuanDaugherty: as well as cheney?
2017-06-24T06:58:43Z beach: JuanDaugherty: LLVM is essentially a C virtual machine.  drmeister is having a number of problem making it work for a totally different language.
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2017-06-24T06:59:16Z JuanDaugherty: well llvm works
2017-06-24T07:00:01Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: llvm doesn't solve any of the GC issues (though it is much less GC hostile than it was when drmeister started)
2017-06-24T07:00:08Z beach: JuanDaugherty: For example, LLVM can not move code, so Clasp can not garbage collect functions.  When a new function is defined, the code just grows.
2017-06-24T07:00:27Z JuanDaugherty: i thought drmeister was doing an ecl like thing, not sbcl
2017-06-24T07:00:50Z jasom: beach: !! no relocations in llvm generated code?
2017-06-24T07:01:07Z beach: jasom: Apparently, it is hard to do at run-time.
2017-06-24T07:01:36Z beach: I don't know the details.  I just know what drmeister has said.
2017-06-24T07:01:45Z JuanDaugherty: i will be surprised if it inhibits zero address arithmetic but life is full of quelle surprise
2017-06-24T07:02:23Z jasom: If you generate PIC/PID  and are willing to suffer one level of redirection for all procedure calls, that *should* be sufficient
2017-06-24T07:03:28Z jasom: actually llvm ought not generate its own data on any non-arm target (lots of ARM compilers put immediate values alongside code and access them with pc-relative loads)
2017-06-24T07:03:32Z JuanDaugherty: also it's not a whole compiler, just pieces parts
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2017-06-24T07:04:41Z jasom: but there is a probably performance hit for that vs. having the moving gc apply relocations; position-independent code is often slower, as is the extra level of indirection for function calls.
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2017-06-24T07:18:14Z beach: Why would position-independent code be slower?  I know it is in the context of C and dynamic libraries, but in the context of Common Lisp?
2017-06-24T07:18:49Z beach: Also, the indirection for function calls is probably intrinsic to a dynamic language like Common Lisp.  I don't see a way to get around it.
2017-06-24T07:22:17Z beach: Speaking of which, it is interesting to see how people choose a language such as C or C++ for reasons of performance, but over time, things have gotten more complicated.  In particular, accessing a global variable used to be very fast, but now you have to go through the GOT, using PC-relative addressing, etc.
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2017-06-24T07:25:40Z White_Flame: you can avoid indirection for function calls if you halt the world, patch all references, and resume whenever a function is changed
2017-06-24T07:26:29Z beach: I guess so.  Doesn't sound like an attractive option, though.
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2017-06-24T07:27:19Z White_Flame: well, functions don't usually change often once an application is deployed & running, so if the function call overhead really is an issue (spoiler: it probably isn't) it could in theory work well
2017-06-24T07:27:49Z beach: That's a good point.
2017-06-24T07:27:55Z White_Flame: heck, 100% indirect function calling was used on the PS2 in whichever lisp-based game that was
2017-06-24T07:28:04Z White_Flame: and still kept 60fps
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2017-06-24T07:29:34Z White_Flame: jasom: position-independent code is often _smaller_, because it does not need absolute 64-bit references to point to things
2017-06-24T07:30:00Z White_Flame: specifically literals local to the function
2017-06-24T07:30:19Z White_Flame: (depending on many specifics, of course)
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2017-06-24T07:37:16Z beach: White_Flame: I wouldn't think there would be many such literals in a Common Lisp program, would there?  I know SBCL goes to great length to make NIL (and maybe T as well) literals like that, but other literals I can think of would more likely be part of the instruction instead.  Am I wrong?
2017-06-24T07:37:39Z White_Flame: unboxed doubles?  idunno
2017-06-24T07:37:55Z beach: Yeah, maybe so.
2017-06-24T07:38:18Z White_Flame: but yeah, I guess most of the stuff would just be heap pointers to data, not local pointers
2017-06-24T07:39:48Z White_Flame:  (defun x () '(1 2 3)) does disassemble down to MOV RDX, [RIP-86], so it is position-independent local data
2017-06-24T07:40:12Z White_Flame: looks like it assembles into a 32-bit signed offset, still savings over a 64-bit heap pointer
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2017-06-24T07:46:53Z beach: Ah, yes.
2017-06-24T07:54:41Z beach: In my code, quoted lists (other than '()) are usually part of tests or macros.
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2017-06-24T07:59:26Z beach: Hmm, what if the list contains (say) symbols?  Wouldn't the GC have to modify the list of those symbols move?
2017-06-24T07:59:36Z beach: s/of/if/
2017-06-24T08:00:38Z beach: I guess it can do that, even though the CONS cells to modify are located in the code.
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2017-06-24T08:50:32Z Posterdati: hi
2017-06-24T08:51:09Z Posterdati: Please is there any sufficient "well done" documentation for cl prometheus??? Thanks!
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2017-06-24T08:55:13Z akkad: the src luke
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2017-06-24T09:09:48Z Posterdati: akkad: :(
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2017-06-24T09:13:14Z pjb: beach: functions that are called in the same compilation-unit and that are not declared not-inline don't have to go thru indirections.
2017-06-24T09:14:05Z White_Flame: hence why it tends to be much safer to have SLIME recompile an entire buffer than doing piecemeal evaluations
2017-06-24T09:15:09Z pjb: Well, I would like the implementation to optimize only with some optimization level (like speed>1 and debug=0).
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2017-06-24T09:15:44Z pjb: Also, compilation-units may encompass multiple files (but I don't think ASDF let you specify that).
2017-06-24T09:16:13Z flavio81: pjb: is this not the same as "modules" in ASDF?
2017-06-24T09:16:22Z flavio81: pjb: <also, private messages sent>
2017-06-24T09:16:55Z flavio81: pjb: or you mean treating a group of files like if they were "one" to compile ?
2017-06-24T09:16:56Z pjb: I don't think so.  You need to to use with-compilatio-unit.
2017-06-24T09:17:02Z flavio81: ok
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2017-06-24T09:17:25Z pjb: flavio81: yes. (with-compilation-unit (mapc 'compile-file '("a" "b" "c")))
2017-06-24T09:17:35Z beach: pjb: Right.
2017-06-24T09:17:39Z pjb: then functions in a.lisp can call functions in b.lisp without any indirection.
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2017-06-24T14:44:59Z rk[ghost]: err.. how to coerce a string to integer?
2017-06-24T14:45:26Z Xach_: rk[ghost]: there is no coercion. parse-integer returns an integer given a proper string.
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2017-06-24T14:46:30Z rk[ghost]: Xach_: right-o.. just what i wanted
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2017-06-24T14:46:39Z dispersed: i guess you need to specify a gödel numbering on strings
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2017-06-24T14:47:26Z rk[ghost]: trying to convert my bash scripts to CL.. so far high friction =P
2017-06-24T14:47:43Z dispersed: bash is a domain specific language
2017-06-24T14:47:52Z dispersed: lisp is pretty much the opposite
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2017-06-24T14:49:51Z Xach_: rk[ghost]: sometimes the ideas are much more portable than the implementation.
2017-06-24T14:51:13Z rk[ghost]: dispersed: i disagree. lisp is a language for making DSLs
2017-06-24T14:51:22Z rk[ghost]: thus can be a DSL
2017-06-24T14:51:52Z rk[ghost]: Xach_: aye, the friction comes from how bash does stuff and how lisp wants to do stuff
2017-06-24T14:52:09Z rk[ghost]: i just want to migrate off of bash because it lacks everything
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2017-06-24T14:52:36Z rk[ghost]: however, when dealing with filesystem.. it is nice
2017-06-24T14:53:01Z rk[ghost]: lisp = everything is a symbol.. bash = everything is a string
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2017-06-24T14:56:14Z dispersed: since when do you implement DSLs in a DSL
2017-06-24T14:56:23Z dispersed: maybe if that's what the DSL is for
2017-06-24T14:56:28Z dispersed: but lisp isn't a DSL...
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2017-06-24T15:02:25Z rk[ghost]: you don't think lisp is a DSL for making DSLs?
2017-06-24T15:04:19Z _death: no need to be hung up on terms like "DSL", which tend to be used by nonlispers anyway, as lispers take it for granted and in a much more pervasive way
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2017-06-24T15:08:56Z White_Flame: lisp is a general purpose language that can make DSLs
2017-06-24T15:09:38Z White_Flame: DSLs are never general purpose (that would violate the D-S part), so Lisp itself isn't a DSL
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2017-06-24T15:27:32Z krwq: has anyone tried runnin any lisp on raspberry pi or arduino? does it make sense or is it better to go with C?
2017-06-24T15:29:28Z krwq: or compile lisp to C perhaps.. would like to know opinion of someone who has tried
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2017-06-24T15:30:33Z beach: What are the characteristics of one of those things?  Like size of memory, word size, etc.
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2017-06-24T15:34:06Z krwq: arduino seems to be running on ATMega328 and for some reason somone has chosen 16MHz quartz; for memory we are talking kilobytes unless you add some external memory, word size - need to check the spec, likely 16 or 8bit
2017-06-24T15:34:42Z krwq: 8
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2017-06-24T15:35:16Z krwq: raspberry pi runs linux so I think this one is more likely
2017-06-24T15:35:52Z beach: Yeah.
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2017-06-24T15:36:38Z krwq: ok i dont remember which version I bought - it was a while ago
2017-06-24T15:38:05Z krwq: do we have any implementation of susbset of common lisp for those?
2017-06-24T15:40:03Z krwq: hmm this looks promising http://www.ulisp.com/show?1LG8
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2017-06-24T15:41:19Z _death: there are several models.. for example arduino yún has an additional 32-bit processor and 64M ram, running linux
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2017-06-24T15:45:24Z krwq: I think I'll go with C on arduino, on raspberry will try ecl+(C/C++) if ecl works
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2017-06-24T15:46:45Z _death: you could also try lisp500 and friends, may work for certain kinds of projects
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2017-06-24T15:47:49Z krwq: _death: http://www.s2.org/~chery/projects/lisp500/lisp500.c ?
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2017-06-24T15:48:21Z _death: maybe more emphasis on "and friends"
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2017-06-24T15:48:41Z _death: https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=lisp500
2017-06-24T15:48:42Z krwq: yeh, this code scares the heck out of me
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2017-06-24T15:52:48Z krwq: _death: thanks, looking at this, so far it looks like it is being interpreted so that might be too slow
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2017-06-24T16:05:44Z rumbler31: I think I've forgotten this several times. and I keep missing the relevant part in the hyperspec
2017-06-24T16:06:16Z rumbler31: if I have a loop form, do the termination test cases happen before or after variable initialization clauses
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2017-06-24T16:08:56Z beach: rumbler31: After.
2017-06-24T16:09:16Z rumbler31: hmm
2017-06-24T16:09:17Z beach: Termination tests basically happen where they are physically located.
2017-06-24T16:09:30Z rumbler31: so the order of the clauses matter?
2017-06-24T16:09:53Z beach: You can't have a termination test preceding a variable clause anyway.
2017-06-24T16:09:57Z beach: But yes, the order matters.
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2017-06-24T16:11:43Z beach: ... so for instance, you can say (loop for x in '((a) (b) c) while (consp x) while (symbolp (car x)) do ...)
2017-06-24T16:12:06Z beach: but (loop for x in '((a) (b) c) while (symbolp (car x)) while (consp x) do ...) will signal an error.
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2017-06-24T16:15:42Z rumbler31: hmm
2017-06-24T16:17:07Z beach: Is there a problem?
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2017-06-24T16:24:27Z rumbler31: no
2017-06-24T16:25:32Z rumbler31: I was looping through a list by threes, and had a do set up to set the list to the cdddr of the list, then do an until null check, which seemed to end loop iteration before the collect clause
2017-06-24T16:26:32Z beach: Can you paste the code?
2017-06-24T16:26:34Z rumbler31: so (loop for a = (first list)... do (setf list (cdddr list)) ... until (null list) collect ((myfunc a b c) a b c)
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2017-06-24T16:28:01Z beach: That seems consistent with the clause order, no?  The termination test happens before the COLLECT.
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2017-06-24T16:29:10Z beach: ... aside from the fact that your collect clause is malformed.
2017-06-24T16:29:44Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349427
2017-06-24T16:30:16Z rumbler31: its right in the code, but not what I typed in irc
2017-06-24T16:30:54Z beach: The second version of your loop is not conforming.
2017-06-24T16:31:11Z krwq: (loop for (a b c) on '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) by #'cdddr collect (list a b c))
2017-06-24T16:31:13Z krwq: try this
2017-06-24T16:31:25Z beach: because you have a main clause (until) preceding a variable clause.
2017-06-24T16:31:36Z rumbler31: yes: the behavior is explained by the order but I'd been under the impression that order of clauses didn't (out of pure ignorance)
2017-06-24T16:31:51Z beach: I see.
2017-06-24T16:32:17Z rumbler31: i forgot to add the termination check until later and just put it somewhere in the loop
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2017-06-24T16:32:37Z beach: rumbler31: also listen to krwq.  You should probably write your loop differently.
2017-06-24T16:32:41Z rumbler31: thank you krwq I figured loop could handle it
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2017-06-24T16:33:28Z rumbler31: Its odd to say that I was in a hurry writing proof of concept code, but scotch didn't help lol
2017-06-24T16:33:51Z krwq: i used to overengineer with loop a lot but this is super powerful thing and covers most of the cases you can ever think of
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2017-06-24T16:35:41Z rumbler31: thank you all
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2017-06-24T18:29:57Z rmrenner: I just hit another snag with parenscript. The docs say that random is a reserved word and shouldn't be used to name things. Fine, except it turns out that p5.js defines a function called "random" with different semantics than the one provided by parenscript
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2017-06-24T18:33:11Z rmrenner: Is there a way to get parenscript to treat (random 1 2) as just another function? As-is, it throws a fit because the version it defines only takes one argument
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2017-06-24T18:37:13Z _death: you could modify it
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2017-06-24T18:40:24Z _death: but you know, in javascript you can use Math["random"]() to call Math.random
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2017-06-24T18:42:05Z vtomole: How does asdf load files? I'm calling a function that is defined in a different file and lisp is not able to find it even though i used a "depends-on" tag.
2017-06-24T18:43:58Z White_Flame: it's easiest to just poke into working .asd files from other projects
2017-06-24T18:44:21Z rmrenner: parenscript's default behavior is that (random) => "Math.random();" and (random 6) => "Math.floor(6 * Math.random());"
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2017-06-24T18:44:55Z White_Flame: :serial t is IMO the simplest way to list your files, instead of individual dependencies
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2017-06-24T18:45:46Z rmrenner: So I'd like to be able to type (random 1 2) and get "random(1 2);" --the "random" defined by p5.js behaves differently
2017-06-24T18:46:44Z _death: what about ((@ document random) 1 2)
2017-06-24T18:46:47Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-06-24T18:47:21Z White_Flame: can you make a little stump function in js, var p5random = (x,y) => random(x,y); ?
2017-06-24T18:47:43Z White_Flame: though _death's is probably more straightforward in execution
2017-06-24T18:49:16Z sausages: in SBCL, if a foreign function causes an exception, what are my options in finding out the actual name of that problem function and the .dll it came from?  SBCL's debugger just prints them as nebulous hexadecimal pointers in the backtrace
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2017-06-24T18:50:03Z vtomole: White_Flame: The function that is called in braiding.lisp is defined in qgame.lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349435
2017-06-24T18:50:17Z vtomole: I don't see what would be wrong with this..
2017-06-24T18:50:46Z White_Flame: you probably shouldn't mix :serial t and :depends-on
2017-06-24T18:50:53Z rmrenner: Nice, ((@ document random) 1 2) seems to work. And the way it was phrased made me realize that (ps (funcall random 1 2)) => "random(1, 2)"
2017-06-24T18:51:10Z White_Flame: other than that, did you forget an in-package on top of your files or something?
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2017-06-24T18:54:46Z vtomole: White_Flame: Those files are in the same package
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2017-06-24T18:55:31Z White_Flame: I think it's an issue outside fo asdf
2017-06-24T18:55:40Z White_Flame: if you manually load the files through slime, does it work?
2017-06-24T18:55:47Z vtomole: White_Flames: Oh i see what you mean
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2017-06-24T18:56:42Z vtomole: Whute_Flame: Thank you
2017-06-24T18:57:06Z White_Flame: don't start blaming random things ;)
2017-06-24T18:57:29Z White_Flame: because those questions end up being red herrings
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2017-06-24T18:58:19Z vtomole: How how do you mean?
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2017-06-24T18:59:43Z _death: the first rule of debugging: it's your fault
2017-06-24T19:00:04Z vtomole: haha for sure
2017-06-24T19:00:24Z _death: then you tread very carefully in trying to prove otherwise
2017-06-24T19:00:52Z White_Flame: yeah, blaming external libraries/tools/compilers/OSes etc is usually unfounded
2017-06-24T19:01:08Z White_Flame: and then you ask questions about those tools, which distract from your actual problem
2017-06-24T19:03:13Z Bike: can you have multiple slots with the same initarg?
2017-06-24T19:03:40Z _death: Bike: from the hip: no
2017-06-24T19:03:46Z drmeister: Does anyone do graphics with quaternions?
2017-06-24T19:03:57Z aeth: Yes. Everyone in #lispgames who does 3D afaik
2017-06-24T19:04:05Z drmeister: Great - right - thanks.
2017-06-24T19:04:17Z Bike: mop make-instance
2017-06-24T19:04:17Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/make-instance.html
2017-06-24T19:04:59Z Bike: hm, don't see either way
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2017-06-24T19:05:19Z rmrenner: woo ok so now I have a nice solution to calling p5.js's version of random: (defmacro rnd (&rest args) `(funcall random ,@args))
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2017-06-24T19:06:18Z _death: but I believe the converse is true, you can have multiple initargs for a single slot..
2017-06-24T19:06:25Z Bike: that is certainly true
2017-06-24T19:07:36Z aeth: drmeister: The implementation of quaternions varies greatly, though. e.g. I use multiple return values most of the time.
2017-06-24T19:09:34Z _death: clhs 7.1.4
2017-06-24T19:09:34Z specbot: Rules for Initialization Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ad.htm
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2017-06-24T19:12:12Z vtomole: drmeister:  You've done some work on Jupyter notebook. Have you ever run into a situation where you needed to call python from lisp? A python cffi of some sort?
2017-06-24T19:12:22Z Bike: how about that. how annoying
2017-06-24T19:12:43Z Bike: (thanks)
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2017-06-24T19:13:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: vtomole: there is burgled-batteries which does something like that
2017-06-24T19:13:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/pinterface/burgled-batteries
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2017-06-24T19:14:02Z vtomole: fiddlerwoaroof:  Thanks
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2017-06-24T19:24:39Z drmeister: vtomole: Bleh - no - calling Python from Lisp sounds like a horror show.
2017-06-24T19:24:57Z White_Flame: crossling languages is what sockets are for ;)
2017-06-24T19:25:00Z White_Flame: -l
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2017-06-24T19:28:10Z Bike: mop method-function
2017-06-24T19:28:10Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-function.html
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2017-06-24T20:49:33Z rmrenner: So yesterday I asked whether it was possible in parenscript, to prevent ps from blindly sticking a "return" before the final statement/expression in a function
2017-06-24T20:49:55Z rmrenner: The answer: no. And today that "feature" just introduced its first bug! I love software
2017-06-24T20:50:36Z Bike: so returning some nil value didn't work?
2017-06-24T20:52:09Z rmrenner: It does, but for a relative js novice, it's only obvious when you need to take that extra step when something breaks
2017-06-24T20:53:23Z Grue``: has anyone used PCALL? I'm so confused right now
2017-06-24T20:53:48Z Bike: i haven't used parenscript much, but i think it's supposed to compile some lisp-like language to javascript, so it beahves like lisp
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2017-06-24T20:57:39Z rmrenner: Yeah, it's Mostly Lisp. I'm fairly impressed with most of the things it does, but sticking points like the "return" issue I'm finding frustrating.
2017-06-24T20:59:08Z Grue``: if I make a http request that sends a file within pcall:pcall it produces 400 Bad Request error, but otherwise the same request produces 200 OK https://pastebin.com/raw/UUpjHLZE
2017-06-24T21:02:00Z Bike: mop c-a-m-u-c
2017-06-24T21:02:01Z specbot: compute-applicable-methods-using-classes: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods-using-classes.html
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2017-06-25T02:59:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-25T03:26:56Z vtomole: beach: Hello beach
2017-06-25T03:28:30Z beach: vtomole: Hello, what's up?
2017-06-25T03:31:03Z vtomole: beach: Saturday night hacking lisp, couldnt get any better. Making some progress on the allocator paper too
2017-06-25T03:31:30Z beach: Excellent.
2017-06-25T03:31:42Z beach: I am re-reading it myself.
2017-06-25T03:32:06Z beach: ... just because it's such an excellent example of good science.
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2017-06-25T03:51:47Z vtomole: beach: I still need to hear an opposing viewpoint to this. Garbage collection protects you from "shooting yourself in the foot", but there are reasons why new languages that don't have automatic memory management are still being created.
2017-06-25T03:52:03Z vtomole: My only argument was the "real-time system one"
2017-06-25T03:52:49Z Bike: well, system programming as well. for example, programming a garbage collector
2017-06-25T03:53:29Z vtomole: Oh yeah forgot about that, mainly system program.
2017-06-25T03:55:13Z vtomole: "If you don't care about the overhead, then use a gc language"
2017-06-25T03:55:22Z vtomole: Is that a good conclusion?
2017-06-25T03:55:39Z beach: vtomole: I think the way to go is to use a concurrent and incremental garbage collector.  That way, it would be possible to take advantage of processors with multiple cores as well.
2017-06-25T03:55:57Z beach: vtomole: The overhead is greater with non-GC in general.
2017-06-25T03:55:59Z White_Flame: vtomole: use a GC language, unless you have a specific reason not to
2017-06-25T03:56:11Z beach: vtomole: At least if you use modern GC techniques.
2017-06-25T03:57:01Z White_Flame: right, most larger systems tend to build up a runtime of their own that isn't going to be as good as what you get from language-supported features
2017-06-25T04:00:38Z beach: vtomole: There are three different issued here, and they are mostly orthogonal. One is overhead.  There GC wins no problem.  Implementing malloc() and free() efficiently is very hard.  The second issue is real-time.  This one is tougher, because a real-time GC does have more overhead than a non-real-time GC.
2017-06-25T04:00:42Z beach: But then, you don't get real-time automatically with malloc() and free() either, because of the complex data structures that have to be maintained.  The final issue is development and maintenance cost.
2017-06-25T04:00:43Z beach: It is known that not using GC increases that cost a lot.  In fact I have seen projects that were canceled after a few million Euros were spent, just because they couldn't simultaneously create a modular system and one that did free() at the right time.
2017-06-25T04:01:38Z White_Flame: both malloc and free have arbitrary data shuffling & maintenance they might do per call, so they're usually far from predictable performance
2017-06-25T04:01:50Z beach: Exactly!
2017-06-25T04:02:02Z White_Flame: in either gc or non-gc, prealloc and reuse if you want performance
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2017-06-25T04:02:30Z beach: But it is common for (not so knowledgeable) developers to believe that malloc() and free() behave in predictable ways.
2017-06-25T04:05:43Z vtomole: beach: Reading this paper, it seems like a developer would want his/her language to support multiple types of garbarge collectors; So the user can pick one based on the goal.
2017-06-25T04:05:56Z beach: vtomole: More generally, you should be aware that phrases like "we need all the speed we can get", or "we need absolute bounded response times" really mean "we are willing to spend any amount of additional development and maintenance time for even a minuscule improvement in performance (or to get bounded response)".  Only when they realize that this kind of additional money is not available, it is too late and the project is canceled.
2017-06-25T04:06:24Z White_Flame: vtomole: ideally, the system would measure & detect which GC strategy would be most effective.  It can be incredibly difficult to manually predict properly
2017-06-25T04:07:29Z White_Flame: and different strategies woudl apply to different data, not just 1 GC for all of memory
2017-06-25T04:07:48Z beach: vtomole: Yes, that would be nice.  But we are in the business of free software (which is why we are on freenode) and already implementing a single bug-free GC is hard.  Implementing multiple ones, some of which are real-time, is extremely hard, and we don't have the manpower.
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2017-06-25T04:08:47Z White_Flame: "sufficiently advanced compiler^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H GC"
2017-06-25T04:09:11Z vtomole: Maybe borrow other languages' collectors ;)
2017-06-25T04:09:44Z White_Flame: GCs also don't stand alone.  The readers/writers in the code need to manipulate them in certain ways, obey different views of safepoints, etc
2017-06-25T04:09:46Z beach: vtomole: There are a few branches of industry that can afford such additional manpower.  Weapons, nuclear power, medical equipment.  But mostly, it is too expensive.
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2017-06-25T04:10:34Z adlaistevenson: Are there still tradeoffs that make having more than one collector implementation desirable in a language?
2017-06-25T04:11:13Z White_Flame: I think that if you get into the dozens to hundreds of GB range, it might be
2017-06-25T04:11:15Z beach: vtomole: What White_Flame says.  The GC is not standalone.  The entire system with its representation of objects etc depends on the GC technique, and vice versa.
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2017-06-25T04:12:48Z White_Flame: adlaistevenson: but azul's (mostly) fully concurrent GC has a lot of good claims there
2017-06-25T04:14:21Z beach: vtomole: For example, if you want an incremental GC (which you need for real-time or soft-real-time systems), then the compiler must generate code to take into account that objects may move at (almost) any point in time.
2017-06-25T04:18:30Z White_Flame: come to think of it, symbolics genera let you allocate "regions" which had their own memory configuration.  I don't recall if that meant you could have actually different GC strategies per region, or just tweak some preferences per region on the same GC strategy
2017-06-25T04:18:33Z adlaistevenson: Dijkstra's Tri-Color Garbage Collector looks fine because it has no pauses, that I remember. If pauses are avoided, it is good for real-time systems.
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2017-06-25T04:19:28Z beach: adlaistevenson: We have come a long way since.  But even that collector requires collaboration from the mutator for write barriers.
2017-06-25T04:20:09Z White_Flame dislikes the overloading of the term "barrier"
2017-06-25T04:20:33Z White_Flame: there's GC read/write barriers, assembly-level ordering barriers, and threading synchronization barriers, that at least spring to mind
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2017-06-25T04:20:43Z beach: adlaistevenson: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1134023 is one example of recent techniques.
2017-06-25T04:20:46Z adlaistevenson: Collaboration, i.e. don't write here
2017-06-25T04:21:55Z beach: adlaistevenson: More like "If you attempt to write a reference to a white object into an object that is black, then either revert the black object to gray, or color the write object gray.
2017-06-25T04:22:16Z beach: adlaistevenson: Because that collector has an invariant that no black object must refer directly to a white object.
2017-06-25T04:23:34Z adlaistevenson: One problem with GCs I've seen, at least Go's GC, is that if there is too much allocation activity in a short time, the program will run into OS-enforced limit and crash. Garbage collector waits too long :-(
2017-06-25T04:24:26Z beach: adlaistevenson: That sounds more like a buggy implementation than a problem with a particular GC algorithm.
2017-06-25T04:25:00Z White_Flame: if you allocate a lot before discarding references to what you allocated, that's a legit out of memory situation...
2017-06-25T04:25:25Z White_Flame: the one thing that I hate the most about GCs is that most require you to specify a heap size
2017-06-25T04:25:46Z adlaistevenson: Xmx
2017-06-25T04:30:03Z adlaistevenson: I wonder how people deal with long (multi-minute) GC pauses in production. Do they force the GC at certain times and rotate through the servers, so other instances are guaranteed not to be GCing at same time?
2017-06-25T04:30:35Z adlaistevenson: I know this is rare, but read it happens
2017-06-25T04:31:04Z White_Flame: single heap systems of that size aren't common
2017-06-25T04:31:15Z White_Flame: would mostly occur in research situations, not production
2017-06-25T04:31:37Z White_Flame: most huge systems are combinations of databases and distributed application servers
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2017-06-25T04:38:46Z aeth: The main thing I could think of that might test a GC in CL would be a game or simulation of sufficient size.
2017-06-25T04:38:53Z aeth: But you can probably write to avoid the GC in CL afaik.
2017-06-25T04:39:53Z adlaistevenson: I wonder if Swift figured out a workaround to cycles being leaked by ref counting.
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2017-06-25T04:44:23Z White_Flame: yeah, games and sims are ripe for static allocation
2017-06-25T04:45:02Z vtomole: aeth: Oh you mentioned games which reminds me how the gaming industry is  with C++
2017-06-25T04:46:24Z aeth: C++ is absolute overkill for modern computers. They use it because they're locked in by proprietary libraries (and engines) written in C++.
2017-06-25T04:46:56Z aeth: The ideal game language is probably much more static than CL, though.
2017-06-25T04:46:58Z adlaistevenson: Is C++ overkill for modern mobile computers?
2017-06-25T04:47:18Z aeth: The smartphone OS companies seem to think so.
2017-06-25T04:47:18Z adlaistevenson: Battery life is pretty important.
2017-06-25T04:47:30Z aeth: C++ isn't the default language on any of the major smartphone OSes afaik.
2017-06-25T04:47:34Z White_Flame: I have high hopes for rust in that area
2017-06-25T04:47:36Z aeth: Although the games probably use C++ for performance
2017-06-25T04:47:46Z White_Flame: C++ is just way too manual
2017-06-25T04:48:14Z aeth: If you're making a PC-only game, though, there's no reason but using existing libraries/engines to use C++, though, afaik.
2017-06-25T04:48:26Z aeth: Which is a huge reason, of course.
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2017-06-25T04:49:20Z aeth: Game dev literature often jumps through huge hoops to make C++ do things that languages like CL can do out of the box, like "hotloading", i.e. recompiling something while the program is running so development is faster iirc.
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2017-06-25T04:50:16Z aeth: But if you're writing a game engine in a language with poor interoperability with C++, congratulations, you're now writing a physics engine, too.
2017-06-25T04:50:45Z White_Flame: there's plenty of stuff around pygame, unity3d, etc, that aren't C++-bound
2017-06-25T04:50:55Z aeth: pygame is afaik mostly dead.
2017-06-25T04:51:00Z White_Flame: (although unity3d sucks from a programmer perspective)
2017-06-25T04:51:12Z White_Flame: ah, haven't done python game stuff myself, only heard from others
2017-06-25T04:51:17Z axion: How is it dead?
2017-06-25T04:51:25Z axion: It has an active community and is still maintained
2017-06-25T04:51:42Z aeth: The scripting language gamedevs have almost entirely moved to Lua and JavaScript. Python is not good for gaming. It doesn't embed well (well, it's not sandboxed) and it has some of the worst performance of any programming language (except Pypy, which targets enterprises and has its own issues)
2017-06-25T04:51:49Z axion: That is not true
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2017-06-25T04:52:10Z aeth: I think Lua with gamedev and JavaScript with gamedev are, relatively speaking, now much larger than Python for gamedev.
2017-06-25T04:52:44Z aeth: Python was once taken very seriously. E.g. some major MMO (Eve?) has its backend partially in Python. Civ 4 uses Python (Civ 5 uses Lua, I'm not sure what Civ 6 uses if anything). etc.
2017-06-25T04:52:57Z axion: That is a big difference compared to "..gamedevs have almost entirely moved.."
2017-06-25T04:53:36Z aeth: Absolutely speaking, Python gamedev is probably larger than Lisp gamedev because Python is huge, especially with beginners. In terms of % mindshare? It's probably gone way down in the last 10 years.
2017-06-25T04:54:54Z aeth: Games are probably the only niche in *anything* where Lua is more popular than Python as a scripting language.
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2017-06-25T09:37:36Z Grue``: I need a simple thread pool library that actually works (requirements: 1: must be able to wait until all tasks in the pool are finished, 2: must not use sb-thread:interrupt-thread to send signals to threads)
2017-06-25T09:37:55Z shka: lparallel does not work?
2017-06-25T09:38:40Z Grue``: it seems pretty complicated
2017-06-25T09:38:57Z shka: it is actually rather easy to use
2017-06-25T09:39:06Z shka: and well designed overall
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2017-06-25T09:39:58Z shka: anyway, I would try lparallel as It is my personal default for everything concurrency related
2017-06-25T09:40:07Z shka: it is just good
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2017-06-25T09:41:16Z Grue``: "`end-kernel’ should not be used as a substitute for properly waiting on tasks with `receive-result’ or otherwise." what's the correct way to finish all the tasks then?
2017-06-25T09:43:17Z p_l: make all tasks have an end (triggered or natural) that gives out a result for receive-result ?
2017-06-25T09:43:25Z shka: Grue``: future
2017-06-25T09:43:45Z shka: https://lparallel.org/promises/
2017-06-25T09:44:38Z shka: "When a future is created, a parallel task is made from the code passed."
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2017-06-25T09:45:05Z shka: it can do other cool stuff, but for now it should be enough
2017-06-25T09:46:15Z shka: so essentially, create list of futures and then call force on each
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2017-06-25T09:47:12Z Grue``: i was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but looks like this is my only option
2017-06-25T09:47:27Z shka: what is even wrong with that?
2017-06-25T09:47:32Z shka: it is nice api
2017-06-25T09:47:43Z Grue``: I need to maintain a list of all the tasks
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2017-06-25T09:48:10Z Grue``: even though the library should already know all the tasks I scheduled in it
2017-06-25T09:48:25Z shka: well, it is for getting result
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2017-06-25T09:48:43Z Grue``: but I don't need the result, I just need to run the tasks!
2017-06-25T09:49:06Z shka: noooo, you need to also synchronize your main thread, right?
2017-06-25T09:50:08Z shka: anyway, there are other options
2017-06-25T09:50:20Z shka: you can use pmap
2017-06-25T09:50:27Z shka: you can perhaps just use plet
2017-06-25T09:51:15Z shka: you could even use pdotimes perhaps
2017-06-25T09:51:49Z shka: but i don't know exactly what you are trying to actually do
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2017-06-25T14:43:58Z xmonader: https://pastebin.com/NwUABkNU checkmany2 doesn't really expand
2017-06-25T14:44:22Z xmonader: i'm trying to follow practical common lisp book
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2017-06-25T14:49:46Z beach: xmonader: Explain the problem a bit more!
2017-06-25T14:50:28Z beach: xmonader: Why do you have a backquote before (report-result ...)?
2017-06-25T14:50:47Z xmonader: beach, I've checkmany macro that takes a test cases and a function called test-v1 that uses (and it works okay with loop for f in forms)
2017-06-25T14:51:07Z xmonader: problem is with test-v2+ version and checkmany macro 2 that trying to use dolist macro
2017-06-25T14:51:26Z beach: It works in the first case because the backquote is inside a comma.
2017-06-25T14:51:50Z beach: In the second case, you removed the comma as well as the LOOP, so now the second backquote is no longer inside a comma.
2017-06-25T14:52:01Z beach: So you have double backquotes.
2017-06-25T14:52:34Z drdo: xmonader: You can always use MACROEXPAND to see what happens
2017-06-25T14:52:52Z xmonader: beach, and drdo thank you very much!
2017-06-25T14:53:13Z beach: xmonader: Sure.  Were you able to fix it?
2017-06-25T14:53:36Z xmonader: I'm trying right now
2017-06-25T14:54:01Z beach: xmonader: Also, the PROGN exists in the first case because the loop is going to generate a list of things at compile time, and those things must be wrapped in a PROGN since the macro only returns a single form.
2017-06-25T14:54:35Z beach: xmonader: In the second case, the DOLIST is not executed at compile time, so it is a single form, which means the PROGN is no longer required.
2017-06-25T14:54:40Z xmonader: i'm getting *** - LET*: variable F has no value
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2017-06-25T14:55:27Z Posterdati: hi
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2017-06-25T14:56:10Z Posterdati: how can I detect if /sys/class/gpio/gpioXX does exists?
2017-06-25T14:56:40Z beach: xmonader: In the LOOP case, f is a form.  In the expansion (as you can see when you macroexpand), report-result is called both with the value of the form and the form itself.
2017-06-25T14:57:34Z beach: xmonader: So if a form is [say] (= (+ 1 2) 3) then the call will look like this: (report-result (= (+ 1 2) 3) '(= (+ 1 2) 3))
2017-06-25T14:57:42Z beach: xmonader: Right?
2017-06-25T14:58:19Z xmonader: true and that's what i want
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2017-06-25T14:58:56Z beach: But in the second case, you do not generate a list of forms at compile time.
2017-06-25T15:00:07Z beach: Look at the expansion of the second macro.
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2017-06-25T15:01:24Z beach: You will have something like (progn (dolist (f ((= (+ 1 2) 3) (= (+ 1 2 3) 6) ...)) ...))
2017-06-25T15:01:25Z beach: Right?
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2017-06-25T15:03:36Z xmonader: beach, worked like a charm ^_^
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2017-06-25T15:05:01Z beach: xmonader: Now you have several problems.  For one thing, ((= (+ 1 2) 3) (= (+ 1
2017-06-25T15:05:01Z beach:         2 3) 6) ...) is now supposed to be evaluated, but it is not a valid form.
2017-06-25T15:05:13Z beach: er, ((= (+ 1 2) 3) (= (+ 1 2 3) 6) ...)
2017-06-25T15:06:15Z beach: So, then you might want to quote it, say using (progn (dolist (f ',forms) ...))
2017-06-25T15:06:46Z beach: But now you have only the forms at compile time, and not their values.
2017-06-25T15:07:06Z xmonader: then i need to pass them to eval
2017-06-25T15:07:51Z beach: ... and when you say (report-result ,f ',f), the comma before f makes f refer to something outside `(progn (dolist ...)) but there is no f outside.
2017-06-25T15:08:09Z beach: xmonader: Yes, but the entire point of the initial macro is to avoid EVAL.
2017-06-25T15:08:27Z beach: xmonader: He is doing the computation at compile time by preceding the LOOP with a comma.
2017-06-25T15:08:57Z beach: xmonader: You kind of removed the main point of the macro by not doing the DOLIST at compile time.
2017-06-25T15:09:57Z beach: xmonader: Now, if you can tell me what the purpose of this modification was, we might be able to patch it up.
2017-06-25T15:10:33Z xmonader: beach, not really a purpose it just came to my mind why not to use dolist instead :D
2017-06-25T15:10:47Z beach: So you just wanted to replace LOOP by DOLIST?
2017-06-25T15:11:03Z xmonader: yes
2017-06-25T15:11:34Z beach: OK, then you will have to perform the DOLIST calculation at compile time.
2017-06-25T15:12:42Z beach: I never use dolist myself, but you will have to precede it with  ,@ just as with LOOP, and you will have to return a list of forms pretty much the same way the LOOP did.
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2017-06-25T15:15:16Z xmonader: yup that was very interesting to know about the compile time / runtime generation
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2017-06-25T15:17:14Z beach: (defmacro checkmany2 (&body forms) (let ((result '())) `(progn ,@(dolist (f forms result) (push `(report-result ,f ',f) result)))))
2017-06-25T15:17:47Z beach: xmonader: I checked the macro expansion briefly, but didn't try to run it.
2017-06-25T15:18:01Z beach: xmonader: But as you can see, now it is basically doing the same thing as the LOOP.
2017-06-25T15:18:51Z xmonader: beach, that works :) :) many thanks
2017-06-25T15:19:06Z beach: Sure.  Next, we need to work on your indentation.
2017-06-25T15:19:58Z xmonader: ehm :D Yeah I'll do my best ^_^
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2017-06-25T15:42:51Z Posterdati: how can I test if /sys/class/gpio/gpioXX/ does exists?
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2017-06-25T15:55:00Z beach: Posterdati: You already asked that.  What is it?  A Unix directory?
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2017-06-25T15:55:47Z drdo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_probe_.htm
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2017-06-25T15:57:41Z Posterdati: beach: more or less
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2017-06-25T16:04:13Z drdo: Posterdati: I literally just gave you the answer
2017-06-25T16:04:31Z drdo: (probe-file "/sys/class/gpio/gpioXX/")
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2017-06-25T16:04:42Z Posterdati: drdo: does not work
2017-06-25T16:05:01Z drdo: What do you mean?
2017-06-25T16:05:19Z drdo: What did you expect and what happens?
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2017-06-25T16:12:34Z flip214: Posterdati: This is not a file name, but a directory name. therefore probe-file does not work.
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2017-06-25T16:12:56Z flip214: you could test for some specific file in there, or rely on other standard mechanisms...
2017-06-25T16:12:59Z Posterdati: flip214: plus, it is in /sys/class ...
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2017-06-25T16:13:22Z flip214: osicat:access with F_OK, R_OK, or W_OK, for example.
2017-06-25T16:13:28Z flip214: that it's in /sys is irrelevant here.
2017-06-25T16:13:52Z flip214: >  probe-file tests whether a file exists.
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2017-06-25T16:16:55Z compro: when is puthash used?
2017-06-25T16:19:23Z compro: always complains that its undefined
2017-06-25T16:20:55Z compro: elisp doesn't complain
2017-06-25T16:21:16Z compro: sbcl and clisp do
2017-06-25T16:21:47Z compro: puthash is implemented in the actual source though
2017-06-25T16:21:53Z Bike: puthash is not a standard function. sbcl defines an internal puthash that it uses to modify hash tables.
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2017-06-25T16:22:03Z Bike: for example (setf (gethash ...) ...) expands into a call to puthash.
2017-06-25T16:22:40Z compro: is it based on common lisp standards?
2017-06-25T16:23:20Z compro: it would be quite useful to call puthash easily
2017-06-25T16:23:50Z Bike: no, it is not a standard function.
2017-06-25T16:24:51Z Bike: you can (defun puthash (key table value) (setf (gethash key table) value)) if you want. i don't know why you'd want to, though.
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2017-06-25T16:26:12Z compro: simply because i will have to write less. don't know why this decision was made in the first place
2017-06-25T16:26:53Z Bike: decision?
2017-06-25T16:27:11Z beach: Bike: Not to include a function that would be useful to compro.
2017-06-25T16:27:13Z compro: of not providing a call to the internal puthash function
2017-06-25T16:27:32Z Bike: well, there's no guarantee there is an internal function.
2017-06-25T16:27:55Z Bike: an implementation could just expand the setf into an inline modification.
2017-06-25T16:28:39Z Bike: and if there is a puthash kind of function, setf can just expand directly to it, so it's just as efficient.
2017-06-25T16:28:46Z Bike: you can save seven characters i guess.
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2017-06-25T16:29:56Z compro: src/code/target-hash-table.lisp:840:(defun %puthash (key hash-table value)
2017-06-25T16:29:59Z drdo: flip214: It does work with directories too
2017-06-25T16:30:04Z drdo: At least it does on sbcl
2017-06-25T16:30:12Z Bike: yes, sbcl does have that function, like i said.
2017-06-25T16:30:22Z Bike: this does not mean a lisp implementation has to.
2017-06-25T16:30:33Z drdo: I had not read the whole chat yet :P
2017-06-25T16:31:01Z drdo: Oh, but it turns out it's not even the same conversation :P
2017-06-25T16:31:18Z compro: i think that i have no option but to use setf instead
2017-06-25T16:31:25Z drdo: Bike: I was talking about the probe-file thing
2017-06-25T16:31:46Z Bike: drdo: yeah, i didn't say anything to you. i hardly know the filesystem functions anyway
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2017-06-25T16:32:28Z compro: anyone here who sets the common lisp standards?!
2017-06-25T16:32:36Z Bike: no. it's like twenty years old.
2017-06-25T16:32:47Z Bike: setf is what you use to modify places. so use setf.
2017-06-25T16:33:30Z compro: :-(
2017-06-25T16:33:36Z Bike: is that a problem?
2017-06-25T16:34:14Z compro: no problem. just that now the standards are in a frozen state.
2017-06-25T16:34:44Z Bike: oh, yes, well. the standard is mostly solid, so there's not a lot of impetus for improvements.
2017-06-25T16:35:03Z Bike: and when there are it's not impossible to get widely used extension standards, such as bordeaux threads and CFFI.
2017-06-25T16:35:33Z compro: c++ changes after 3 years
2017-06-25T16:35:41Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2017-06-25T16:36:13Z beach: compro: Perhaps you should ask for puthash to be included in the next C++ standard.
2017-06-25T16:36:26Z Bike: i don't think changing rapidly is necessarily a good thing.
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2017-06-25T16:36:37Z beach: It definitely is not.
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2017-06-25T16:36:54Z Bike: the C++ book i learned some programming for in middle school is worth jack shit now. tragic.... (it wasn't good to start with, but still)
2017-06-25T16:37:21Z compro: it would not impact existing programs as far as I guess
2017-06-25T16:37:26Z beach: I am very pleased that I can :USE the COMMON-LISP package without having to fear symbol collisions in the next iteration of the standard.
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2017-06-25T16:38:33Z compro: is haskell more worth learning instead of lisp?
2017-06-25T16:38:42Z Bike: well, you're in #lisp, you can guess answers
2017-06-25T16:38:58Z beach: compro: Definitely.  They may add a puthash for you.
2017-06-25T16:39:10Z Bike: but, i think haskell is worthwhile to learn, and also that learning one thing or another thing should not be a competition.
2017-06-25T16:39:59Z compro: i was asking for i am a newcomer to functional programming
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2017-06-25T16:42:38Z beach: compro: Oh, you are in the wrong channel then.  Common Lisp is not a good example of a functional programming language.
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2017-06-25T16:43:02Z beach: compro: Modern Common Lisp code uses the Common Lisp object system extensively.
2017-06-25T16:43:19Z beach: compro: By the way, Common Lisp has one of the most powerful object systems around.
2017-06-25T16:44:01Z beach: compro: So if functional programming is what you want, Haskell or some ML variant might be preferable.  Or Clojure, I guess.
2017-06-25T16:44:42Z compro: So, common lisp is more relative to which language?
2017-06-25T16:45:17Z beach: "relative to"?
2017-06-25T16:45:23Z vtomole: It's multiparadigm
2017-06-25T16:47:43Z beach: compro: Oh, and by the way, PUTHASH would be a strange thing to want in functional programming, since it has side effects.
2017-06-25T16:48:44Z compro: that was a better point
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2017-06-25T16:51:21Z beach: compro: Not sure what you are asking, but "functional programming" typically means programming without side effects, so that calling a function returns a new object rather than modifying an existing one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming
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2017-06-25T16:53:09Z cromachina: instead of a hash table, you would probably end up using a tree or heap. further reading: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/theses/okasaki.pdf
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2017-06-25T18:13:27Z circ-user-2fvK9: When I'm using the loop macro, is there a way to do a "continue" like in C?
2017-06-25T18:15:04Z ebrasca: circ-user-2fvK9: what do you mean with "continue"?
2017-06-25T18:15:46Z ebrasca: circ-user-2fvK9: do you mean exit loop?
2017-06-25T18:16:19Z circ-user-2fvK9: no, I mean skip the rest of the processing for this loop iteration and proceed to the next loop
2017-06-25T18:16:20Z axion: wrap the DO clause in a continue block, and return-from?
2017-06-25T18:17:18Z axion: (loop ... do (block continue ... (when ... (return-from continue))))
2017-06-25T18:17:23Z circ-user-2fvK9: I think the body of the block drops me out of loop land though
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2017-06-25T18:19:09Z circ-user-2fvK9: e.g. in the body of the "do (block continue ..." I can't use the sum clause from loop because I think loop's macro expansion doesn't follow into there
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2017-06-25T18:21:26Z axion: I agree I don't like this, but a better question might be what you are specifically doing that requires this. It may turn out the DO family is a better fit.
2017-06-25T18:24:12Z circ-user-2fvK9: Yeah it has gotten a bit hairy http://paste.lisp.org/display/349485
2017-06-25T18:30:39Z axion: THis doesn't make much sense to me
2017-06-25T18:33:19Z axion: WITH initialized a variable before the first iteration, so IF VALID in each iteration does not seem to make sense to me, nor why WITH is written after iteration bindings
2017-06-25T18:33:34Z axion: THough I don't really understand the flow much
2017-06-25T18:35:01Z Bike: Regardless of that, how would it ever hit the sum?
2017-06-25T18:35:12Z Bike: if valid is true, it skips the rest of the loop. if valid is false, it returns.
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2017-06-25T18:36:12Z circ-user-2fvK9: axion: Is with only limited to initialization before for?
2017-06-25T18:36:19Z Bike: WITH is, yes.
2017-06-25T18:36:20Z axion: Yes
2017-06-25T18:36:29Z Bike: if you want to compute the value anew for each iteration you use FOR.
2017-06-25T18:36:47Z Bike: which looks like the case here
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2017-06-25T18:37:45Z Bike: also you could probably replace that with a call to digit-char-p.
2017-06-25T18:38:07Z Bike: (digit-char-p #\a 16) => 10
2017-06-25T18:38:14Z ebrasca: circ-user-2fvK9: maybe is better for you iterate.
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2017-06-25T18:42:57Z circ-user-2fvK9: so something like "for valid = ... then ..." where ... is the same in both places?
2017-06-25T18:43:09Z Bike: Yeah, but you can just do "for valid = ..."
2017-06-25T18:43:41Z circ-user-2fvK9: Ah nice
2017-06-25T18:43:42Z Bike: try it. (loop for x below 5 for y = (1+ x) do (print y))
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2017-06-25T19:03:01Z dim: I wonder if I'm on front of a MySQL bug of qmynd bug now
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2017-06-25T19:03:29Z dim: socket in CLOSE_WAIT but SBCL still trying to get more content from it, SB-IMPL::SYSREAD-MAY-BLOCK-P is waiting
2017-06-25T19:04:24Z dim: MySQL complains in the logs: Got timeout writing communication packets
2017-06-25T19:04:53Z dim: it might be that the read shouldn't have been for that many bytes (it wants 67 of them)
2017-06-25T19:04:58Z dim: (got 5)
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2017-06-25T19:18:30Z BW^-: what object databases are you aware of beyond AllegroCache and manarddb?
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2017-06-25T20:01:40Z dim: bug seems to be on me again, as exepected
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2017-06-25T20:07:46Z dim: (I might have fixed it)
2017-06-25T20:08:43Z dim: (the kind that would never have passed review, should we have some)
2017-06-25T20:09:35Z dim: btw, I would happily review other project's code in exchange for pgloader's code being reviewed (commit based, happens anywhen people have time, etc)
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2017-06-25T20:21:58Z shka: dim: ha!
2017-06-25T20:22:20Z shka: dim: we can discuss that
2017-06-25T20:22:25Z shka: tomorrow or so
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2017-06-25T20:35:46Z dim: sure
2017-06-25T20:36:06Z dim: I mean nowadays I am quite more available for CL than I used to be
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2017-06-25T20:50:42Z axion: Hmm, what's the best way to read the full contents of a file at once as an in-memory string?
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2017-06-25T20:56:54Z dim: alexandria:read-file-into-string
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2017-06-25T20:57:34Z axion: Was not aware of such thing. I was using w-o-f/read-sequence
2017-06-25T20:57:36Z axion: Thanks
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2017-06-25T21:04:41Z axion: Looking at the code, it seems to be doing a lot of un-necessary steps. Definitely much more inefficient than my method.
2017-06-25T21:06:46Z Bike: what's unnecessary?
2017-06-25T21:08:30Z loke___: I'd say it's the opposite
2017-06-25T21:08:51Z loke___: The function has no way of specifying encoding, which makes it pretty useless for all but specific use cases
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2017-06-25T21:09:30Z Bike: isn't that what external-format is for?
2017-06-25T21:09:49Z loke___: Oopo
2017-06-25T21:09:50Z loke___: oops
2017-06-25T21:10:12Z loke___: I looked at the arguments for read-stream-content-into-string
2017-06-25T21:10:24Z loke___: which of course doesn't need it, sicne the stream already has the encoding stuff
2017-06-25T21:10:37Z loke___: Great. The world order has been restored.
2017-06-25T21:10:54Z axion: The whole buffering. Testing the speed of 10,000 iterations of a small C source code file and it is about 0.5s compared to about 0.3 for mine
2017-06-25T21:11:38Z loke___: axion: So you preallocate the size of the buffer beforehand?
2017-06-25T21:12:42Z axion: Right, I do (with-open-file (in path) (let ((contents (make-string (file-length in)))) (read-sequence contents in) contents)))
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2017-06-25T21:12:53Z loke___: axion: Right, but that's not reliable.
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2017-06-25T21:13:12Z loke___: axion: The file size can change between the call to FILE-LENGTH and the actual reading.
2017-06-25T21:13:15Z axion: Trje
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2017-06-25T21:13:21Z axion: err true, rather.
2017-06-25T21:13:21Z loke___: The alexandroia function can't make that assumption.
2017-06-25T21:14:01Z loke___: Of course, it's possible to implement a function that attempts to do it that way, and then adjust if the file size changed.
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2017-06-25T21:14:43Z loke___: But the fastest way is likely involving CFFI and memory mapped files.
2017-06-25T21:15:08Z axion: Regardless, people using alexandria probably favor correctness over speed anyway. I know I have made a few contributions to the codebase that favors correctness anyway
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2017-06-25T21:15:42Z loke___: axion: Right. That's definitely what I'd expect from alexandria (after all, “everybody” uses it, so it better be correct :-) )
2017-06-25T21:16:00Z axion: Right...not too long ago I fixed lerp to be numerically stable
2017-06-25T21:16:19Z loke___: lerp?
2017-06-25T21:16:25Z axion: alexandria:lerp
2017-06-25T21:17:07Z axion: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/commit/926a066611b7b11cb71e26c827a271e500888c30
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2017-06-25T21:27:15Z loke___: axion: You're right. I'm looking at the old version, and your test case gives a really poor value for the old algorithm.
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2017-06-25T21:28:28Z axion: Yes, the lerp function used was the numerically unstable interpolation method
2017-06-25T21:29:50Z Bike: how do i make asdf work with .lsp files?
2017-06-25T21:30:05Z Bike: there's something about :default-component-class cl.source-file.lsp, but then it forgets what :file is
2017-06-25T21:30:20Z loke___: Bike: lsp files?
2017-06-25T21:31:40Z Bike: yes, as in the file extension is "lsp"
2017-06-25T21:31:49Z axion: lsp, the file extension for NewLisp
2017-06-25T21:31:57Z phoe: axion: tell that to ECL source
2017-06-25T21:32:00Z loke___: Bike: sounds crappy. what project is this, and why can't you just rename them?
2017-06-25T21:32:17Z phoe: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/tree/develop/src/clos
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2017-06-25T21:33:15Z Bike: i might rename them later, but i'd still like to be able to do this
2017-06-25T21:33:18Z axion: NewLisp tagline, "Puts the fun back in Lisp" couldn't be farther from the truth. Recently had to port some code to CL.
2017-06-25T21:33:37Z Bike: and it's lisp code, not newlisp or whatever
2017-06-25T21:34:27Z loke___: axion: There is real code written in newlisp? Now I'm vurious. Tell me more.
2017-06-25T21:34:45Z axion: loke___: I ported this https://github.com/hds1/Dual-Quaternion-calculus/blob/master/dualquaternion.lsp
2017-06-25T21:35:07Z axion: Well, excerpts
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2017-06-25T21:40:20Z loke___: axion: What does (args) do?
2017-06-25T21:42:02Z axion: This is why I dislike the language...It has a lot of functions that operate on an implicit argument. In this case I think it is returning the slots of the DQ object, though I could be mistaken.
2017-06-25T21:44:23Z loke___: axion: What's the implicit argument? Like... I call (foo 1 2 3) and (args) returns '(1 2 3) ?
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2017-06-25T21:45:59Z loke___: And what's the self function? As in (self 4) ?
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2017-06-25T21:47:54Z axion: I really do not know enough. It is confusing to say the least. (args) and (self) always return () and nil respectively for me.
2017-06-25T21:48:15Z axion: I never said I knew the language...just was able to understand the general algorithms to port it :)
2017-06-25T21:48:48Z axion: It took me a day of trial and error in its REPL to understand just how a few functions worked.
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2017-06-25T22:05:43Z axion: Hmm, I kind of wish multiple-value-list was setf-able, but I understand why not.
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2017-06-25T22:08:38Z Bike: meaning you want to set the elements of a list to match some values?
2017-06-25T22:09:10Z axion: Meaning I just wanted to push an element to the front without first lexically binding the call to m-v-l
2017-06-25T22:10:42Z Bike: (cons element (multiple-value-list ...))?
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2017-06-25T22:11:47Z axion: Yeah that's better.
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2017-06-25T23:40:34Z axion: Does anyone know how to convince Xach's salza2 library to compress with a higher level? It seems the default gzip compressor is using the least amount of compression according to FILE(1)
2017-06-25T23:42:48Z axion: or maybe phoe has plans to implement the lzma encoder too? :)
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2017-06-26T02:20:22Z krwq: I was able to run sbcl and swank on raspberry pi and turn on diode with it :P
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2017-06-26T02:35:23Z nydel: i haven't updated software in so long.. as a non-root user on a pub unix, is it better to compile slime at $HOME or to use emacs to obtain it via package-install? i'm at an openbsd system that offers both emacs25 and sbcl but no shared slime
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2017-06-26T02:54:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-26T02:56:25Z holycow: helo
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2017-06-26T02:58:47Z beach: holycow: Hmm, I had minion transmit a memo for you, but I don't see that you ever got it.
2017-06-26T02:59:04Z holycow: oh, i did not get it. :/
2017-06-26T02:59:22Z beach: Is minion getting flaky?
2017-06-26T02:59:46Z holycow: it is plausible that i did not notice it, so it is probably human error
2017-06-26T02:59:57Z beach: Anyway, it was "when does summer start for you".  Because there was something I was supposed to remind you about that you were planning to do this summer.
2017-06-26T03:00:13Z beach: No, you didn't get it.  At least not here in #lisp.
2017-06-26T03:00:21Z holycow: weird.
2017-06-26T03:00:26Z beach: Very.
2017-06-26T03:01:07Z holycow: umm .. the answer to the question is hard to know right now.  i have a ton of projects overlapping threatening to ruin my plans.  how much time should i be setting aside each week (theoretically)?
2017-06-26T03:01:55Z beach: Oh, I don't want to put pressure on you.  You were the one who suggested it.  If you no longer have time, don't worry about it.
2017-06-26T03:02:39Z holycow: naw.  if it needs to be done, it needs to be done. i offered, i am standing by the commitment.
2017-06-26T03:02:48Z beach: Oh, OK.
2017-06-26T03:03:10Z holycow: remind me of some of the specifics?  i know jackdaniel is supposed to engage me on the graphics side of things for his work
2017-06-26T03:03:48Z beach: I think the task was vague, something like "design a modern-looking, consistent-looking set of gadgets for McCLIM".
2017-06-26T03:04:22Z holycow: right.  that isn't a huge load.  i am waiting for an email from jack
2017-06-26T03:04:35Z holycow: technically if you guys wanted to start the work in the next two weeks, that would be fine by me
2017-06-26T03:04:45Z beach: OK.  He'll probably be back today after a weekend of partying.
2017-06-26T03:04:55Z holycow: hehe :)
2017-06-26T03:05:08Z holycow: that will work for me.  remind him as appropriate.
2017-06-26T03:05:19Z holycow: he sent me a link to the reference material he was looking at
2017-06-26T03:05:24Z holycow: i am slowing working through it
2017-06-26T03:05:29Z beach: I need to try to stay out of it, because I am very busy with the Concrete Syntax Tree library that is a show-stopper for many other projects if I don't finish it.
2017-06-26T03:05:54Z beach: "material design" is just one possible inspiration for this work.
2017-06-26T03:06:06Z holycow: i find mcclim a very exciting project.  i would be happy to help jackd while you complete your work
2017-06-26T03:06:16Z holycow: right that was it
2017-06-26T03:06:46Z beach: Great!  I'll remind him later today.  Monday mornings are crazy around here, so I don't know exactly what time I'll get to it.
2017-06-26T03:06:53Z holycow: same here
2017-06-26T03:07:02Z holycow: next week will be insane, but after that should calm down
2017-06-26T03:07:18Z beach: Famous last words. :)
2017-06-26T03:07:23Z beach: Hint: it never happens.
2017-06-26T03:07:42Z holycow: heh, oh you heard me talk before?
2017-06-26T03:07:43Z holycow: yup!
2017-06-26T03:07:53Z beach: No, I am talking from experience. :)
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2017-06-26T04:45:25Z adlaistevenson: Non-statically-typed langauges considered harmful: "testing can only prove the presence of errors, never their absence"
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2017-06-26T04:45:48Z beach: adlaistevenson: What's your point?
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2017-06-26T04:49:15Z adlaistevenson: Err, I really like static typing and generics.
2017-06-26T04:50:30Z beach: So you are one of those numerous people who come here to tell us that we have made the wrong choice for so long?
2017-06-26T04:51:11Z beach: Hint: We have heard it before many many times, and we still don't believe it.
2017-06-26T04:51:50Z adlaistevenson: Well, not to troll or to cause trouble. Just to elicit the other view.
2017-06-26T04:52:49Z adlaistevenson: At least Lisp seems to be dynamically typed, which seems like far improvement over JS.
2017-06-26T04:52:54Z beach: adlaistevenson: Well, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so discussions about the relative merit of programming languages with pretty much the opposite design goals from that of Common Lisp are off topic.
2017-06-26T04:53:42Z adlaistevenson: Okay, no worries guess I better go to bed then.
2017-06-26T04:53:59Z pillton: Also, there is nothing stopping you from writing macros which require you to specify types.
2017-06-26T04:54:01Z beach: adlaistevenson: And, this channel is populated by a lot of very smart and very knowledgeable people.  So they probably already know the arguments of the other view.
2017-06-26T04:54:48Z adlaistevenson: I really liked the GC conversation. :-)
2017-06-26T04:55:21Z beach: Great!
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2017-06-26T05:06:21Z pillton: I'm surprised that there is very little discussion on the system class T.
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2017-06-26T05:06:45Z beach: What's to discuss?
2017-06-26T05:07:26Z pillton: I was meaning from people who come here to learn about common lisp.
2017-06-26T05:07:41Z beach: Ah.
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2017-06-26T05:08:26Z Zhivago: Hmm, why do you think it would be particularly interesting?
2017-06-26T05:08:33Z beach: Yeah, it is sometimes surprising what such people want to discuss. :)
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2017-06-26T05:11:04Z pillton: Well, I often found it weird in other languages to provide boxed and unboxed classes.
2017-06-26T05:11:56Z pillton: The system class T and the definition of EQ seem like a way to avoid having the distinction.
2017-06-26T05:13:06Z Zhivago: Well, only because class-of gives complete coverage and CL does immediates under the hood.
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2017-06-26T05:13:38Z Zhivago: If class-of gave only partial coverage and immediates were exposed, then you'd have the same situation with T.
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2017-06-26T05:16:02Z pillton: Sure. I presume (perhaps erroneously) that the existence of boxed and unboxed classes is for computational efficiency. The definition of EQ seems to be a good premise for the definition of class-of.
2017-06-26T05:17:27Z Zhivago: I don't think so. EQ predates CLASS-OF.
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2017-06-26T05:18:03Z Zhivago: If you consider a class to be a description of the implementation of an object, then it's easy to consider that you might well have objects without class -- and these would happily work with EQ.
2017-06-26T05:18:11Z pillton: That fits what I said then.
2017-06-26T05:18:22Z Zhivago: Fair enough. ;)
2017-06-26T05:18:38Z pillton: I was referring to EQ predates CLASS-OF.
2017-06-26T05:19:17Z Zhivago: The idea of class as descriptive is one that I think ought to be interesting to more people, but I think it's hidden by their preconception of what class is.
2017-06-26T05:22:03Z pillton: Hmm.. What operators would an object without class have?
2017-06-26T05:23:26Z Zhivago: Rather, what operators would operate on an object without class -- and the answer is, whatever operators operate on such an object.
2017-06-26T05:24:27Z Zhivago: Consider the operators on values, for example.
2017-06-26T05:24:40Z pillton: Yes. My apologies for the poor writing, but I think it is worth pondering what operators would be defined for such an object.
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2017-06-26T05:25:02Z pillton: One could define an object without class to be equivalent to an array of bytes.
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2017-06-26T05:25:44Z Zhivago: Just consider how lisps worked before class-of existed.
2017-06-26T05:26:02Z Zhivago: Generally they defined objects as vectors of cells.
2017-06-26T05:26:24Z Zhivago: (And we can see support for this approach lingering in defstruct)
2017-06-26T05:30:24Z pillton: Where do you find the dates? Is typep defined at the same time as class-of?
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2017-06-26T05:31:53Z pillton: It is interesting. If you consider objects as vectors of cells then it is feasible for two classes to have the same underlying structure.
2017-06-26T05:32:25Z Zhivago: Sure, and most do -- a header followed by slots.
2017-06-26T05:32:43Z Zhivago: What dates?
2017-06-26T05:32:57Z pillton: How did you discover that EQ predates CLASS-OF?
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2017-06-26T05:33:30Z malkss: Anyone think they can break my hashing function? (this is just a fun challenge I made): http://ideone.com/nSJa45 Goal: Determine the plaintext of the following hash: d0c0c93dcff308d1
2017-06-26T05:33:31Z Zhivago: If you look at the early lisps, you'll see that they don't have class-of, but do have eq.
2017-06-26T05:33:32Z malkss: This is an attempt to solve it: https://pastebin.com/raw/5cWSdmxe
2017-06-26T05:34:13Z Zhivago: malkss: The plaintext is "whatever I want it to be".
2017-06-26T05:34:16Z pillton: Zhivago: Oh right.
2017-06-26T05:35:22Z Zhivago: malkss: Are you in the right channel?
2017-06-26T05:37:29Z malkss: Zhivago: Thats test input
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2017-06-26T05:37:55Z malkss: Preimage attack is what you need to break it
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2017-06-26T05:38:05Z beach: malkss: Your code looks more like C than like Common Lisp.
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2017-06-26T05:38:32Z beach: malkss: Hence the question from Zhivago.
2017-06-26T05:42:23Z pillton: Zhivago: The problem is interesting, especially from a reflectance point of view. A "blob"'s meaning is only apparent on use.
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2017-06-26T05:43:18Z Zhivago: Hmm, well, we also have types.
2017-06-26T05:43:54Z pillton: You have the same problem with types.
2017-06-26T05:44:32Z Zhivago: Types are declarative, so they should be apparent prior to execution.
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2017-06-26T05:44:51Z Zhivago: That is, this code expects these types -- if you don't supply them, then woe upon you.
2017-06-26T05:45:26Z Zhivago: As opposed to dynamically deriving some representative type from the class of an object.
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2017-06-26T05:59:21Z pillton: I have written some software for data flow programming that adopts that approach. There are operators for checking the "vectors of cells" prior to use. This provides some sort of reflectance for debugging purposes.
2017-06-26T06:00:42Z pillton: I pondered building a class system on top of it. Perhaps I should.
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2017-06-26T06:43:16Z BW^-: what persistent object databases do you know of, and what GC algorithms for such do you know?
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2017-06-26T06:44:37Z malkss: Anyone think they can break my hashing function? (this is just a fun challenge I made): http://ideone.com/nSJa45 Goal: Determine the plaintext of the following hash: d0c0c93dcff308d1
2017-06-26T06:44:40Z malkss: This is an attempt to solve it: https://pastebin.com/raw/5cWSdmxe
2017-06-26T06:44:42Z malkss: 100USD up for grabs to anyone who manages to solve it :)
2017-06-26T06:53:33Z jdz: malkss: are you sure it is _your_ function?
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2017-06-26T06:54:08Z malkss: jdz: The original function was posted on reddit a couple years ago
2017-06-26T06:55:44Z jdz: It's not much fun winning a CTF if one don't solve the problem oneself..
2017-06-26T06:57:43Z malkss: not a ctf
2017-06-26T06:57:53Z malkss: just a thread
2017-06-26T07:00:10Z jdz: Anyway, "breaking" a hash function does not make sense.
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2017-06-26T07:01:07Z jdz: Many strings may have the same hash.
2017-06-26T07:01:34Z jdz: Especially with this function and things with characters out of the given set (c[]).
2017-06-26T07:02:18Z jdz: I.e., all characters not listed in c[] are treated the same.
2017-06-26T07:03:17Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2017-06-26T07:03:44Z jdz: This is also offtopic for this channel.
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2017-06-26T07:13:34Z nydel: i'm looking for advice installing slime on a public bsd system as a common end-user. we have emacs and sbcl up to date. is it better to compile slime from repo in my ~ or to use emacs packages to fetch it? thanking you kindly in advance!
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2017-06-26T07:16:23Z pillton: nydel: I think Quickloading quicklisp-slime-helper is the easiest.
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2017-06-26T07:30:30Z phoe: nydel: quicklisp-slime-helper
2017-06-26T07:30:34Z phoe: this and only this.
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2017-06-26T07:31:31Z phoe: and before you use it, make sure that you remove all other instances of slime - this is prone to clashes.
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2017-06-26T07:36:19Z beach: BW^-: What kind of features do you need for your persistent object database?
2017-06-26T07:37:37Z BW^-: beach: GC pretty much
2017-06-26T07:38:04Z phoe: BW^-: is your object database meant to be prevalent or not?
2017-06-26T07:38:13Z phoe: in other words, will all your objects fit in RAM?
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2017-06-26T07:38:41Z BW^-: phoe: wait, what do you mean by prevalent?
2017-06-26T07:38:48Z BW^-: phoe: ah - no - the objects will not fit in RAM.
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2017-06-26T07:39:04Z BW^-: phoe: i'm asking myself if even the marking would fit in RAM according to normal algorithms :o
2017-06-26T07:39:32Z beach: BW^-: Wow, that's a huge database.  What are you planning to store in it?
2017-06-26T07:39:39Z BW^-: phoe,beach: so i want to store numbers, vectors, strings, bools, pairs, and those pairs and vectors can do strong and weak references to other objects, that's it.
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2017-06-26T07:40:46Z phoe: BW^-: sounds like a case for a nosql database.
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2017-06-26T07:41:00Z phoe: I mean, if your data is semistructured but does not follow any set schema.
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2017-06-26T07:41:48Z BW^-: beach: i think a very naive marking algorithm would need to keep the object reference of each object in RAM. that quickly grows big. hmmmm.. though indeed inlined objects don't need a ref.
2017-06-26T07:41:52Z BW^-: beach: ..only variable slots.
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2017-06-26T07:42:49Z beach: BW^-: I am asking why you can't keep the entire data set in RAM, as in just start a Common Lisp process with a big heap.
2017-06-26T07:43:02Z BW^-: beach,phoe: maybe i could juggle with a functional form of the database with only few "forward references", to keep RAM requirements low
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2017-06-26T07:43:15Z BW^-: beach: yeah no, it might be a terabyte of data.
2017-06-26T07:43:20Z BW^-: the persistent data.
2017-06-26T07:43:23Z beach: I see.
2017-06-26T07:43:38Z BW^-: like, a list of all socks ever produce don earth, whatever.
2017-06-26T07:43:51Z BW^-: my favourite junk logs since ever
2017-06-26T07:44:18Z BW^-: beach,phoe: the absence of a maximum size requirement, is also a kind of mathemathical symmetry thing
2017-06-26T07:44:18Z BW^-: like
2017-06-26T07:44:38Z BW^-: as soon as you say "all your persistent data MUST be less than X megabytes" then you need to think through everything from that perspective
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2017-06-26T07:46:47Z beach: BW^-: A terabyte of RAM is only 4k USD.
2017-06-26T07:47:17Z beach: BW^-: And you might be able to have less and count on paging to disk for infrequently used stuff.
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2017-06-26T07:50:11Z ebrasca: beach: where you can get 1TB RAM?
2017-06-26T07:51:01Z beach: ebrasca: I assume you can get that anywhere.  But I suppose you need a computer that can hold it.
2017-06-26T07:52:11Z jdz: I'd just use PostgreSQL.
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2017-06-26T07:54:03Z beach: ebrasca: Here is one for instance: http://gizmodo.com/5365029/sgis-personal-supercomputer-handles-80-cores-1tb-of-ram
2017-06-26T07:54:46Z ebrasca: beach: Are you sure it is 1 motherboard?
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2017-06-26T07:55:00Z beach: ebrasca: I am sure of nothing.  I just Google for it.
2017-06-26T07:55:21Z beach: It is only 8k USD, which is less than the cost of 1 engineer-month.  Since I don't know the development situation of BW^-, I don't know whether it is a reasonable choice.
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2017-06-26T07:56:14Z ebrasca: beach: 4 * ASUS KGPE-D16 give 4 * 256GB RDIMM RAM
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2017-06-26T07:57:43Z beach: ebrasca: I don't know the properties of such a setup.  For it to be convenient, the RAM would have to be shared so that it can be accessed from a single process.
2017-06-26T07:58:26Z beach: I am just trying to argue that a traditional database might not be the ideal solution, depending on project goals, budget, etc.
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2017-06-26T08:01:40Z BW^-: beach: lol.
2017-06-26T08:01:45Z BW^-: beach: a smartphone doesn't have a terabyte of ram.
2017-06-26T08:02:37Z beach: BW^-: This is the first time I hear "smartphone" mentioned.  Is that what you are planning to run this thing on?
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2017-06-26T08:03:28Z BW^-: beach: yeah sure it's an interesting point you're making.
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2017-06-26T08:06:41Z BW^-: beach: that computer is really dated, http://gizmodo.com/5365029/sgis-personal-supercomputer-handles-80-cores-1tb-of-ram
2017-06-26T08:06:49Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2017-06-26T08:06:56Z beach: I bet there are others.
2017-06-26T08:07:14Z beach: BW^-: It upsets me that so many people take for granted the conceptual separation of primary and secondary memory, especially since we have known since before Unix how to make it disappear.  With the current situation, every somewhat sophisticated application has to find a solution to persistence, whereas the operating system should be in charge of it.
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2017-06-26T08:07:46Z beach: It makes me want to work harder on my book about operating systems.
2017-06-26T08:08:02Z shka: to be honest major thing in relation DBs are not relations but transactions
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2017-06-26T08:08:37Z beach: The relational model looks like Fortran to me.
2017-06-26T08:08:38Z shka: there are in memory stores, but most are just not as reliable as good old PG
2017-06-26T08:09:19Z beach: shka: What is unreliable about an in-memory store?
2017-06-26T08:09:30Z shka: beach: existing implementations
2017-06-26T08:09:39Z beach: Like SBCL?
2017-06-26T08:09:50Z shka: i was thinking about BigTable
2017-06-26T08:09:53Z shka: and clones
2017-06-26T08:09:57Z p_l: BigTable is not in-memory
2017-06-26T08:10:05Z p_l: HANA, Redis, etc. are in-memory
2017-06-26T08:10:36Z shka: p_l: actually, you can save stuff in Redis to disk so well…
2017-06-26T08:10:42Z beach: Can someone please tell me what an "in-memory store" is supposed to be that makes it different from (say) the SBCL heap?
2017-06-26T08:10:47Z beach: This is getting intersting.
2017-06-26T08:10:54Z beach: interesting, even.
2017-06-26T08:11:05Z p_l: shka: it's snapshotted, but doesn't use disk for operation itself
2017-06-26T08:11:27Z p_l: beach: in-memory store would be something like PCL's example 2kloc database running inside SBCL's heap :)
2017-06-26T08:11:33Z beach: Please don't tell me that we now dumb down not only disk to fit the Fortran model, but also RAM.
2017-06-26T08:11:51Z beach: p_l: Relational database?
2017-06-26T08:11:59Z p_l: beach: usually not relational
2017-06-26T08:12:04Z beach: Whew!
2017-06-26T08:12:20Z shka: beach: well, essentially, you will need to have some sort of transactional layer on top of that so people are operating on coherent state
2017-06-26T08:12:26Z BW^-: beach,phoe: i think needing supercomputer-quantities of RAM just to run the GC is a weird "assymetry", it's a weird constraint.
2017-06-26T08:13:01Z p_l: anyway, there are in-memory relational databases, and disk-oriented non-relational ones. It's not related
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2017-06-26T08:13:04Z shka: and since you can KINDA get away without it in non-relational models people are ignoring this issue
2017-06-26T08:13:07Z beach: shka: Oh, you mean like Clobber? https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber
2017-06-26T08:13:54Z p_l: Relational Databases tend to be maligned by developers who don't get *why* and *how* of them, often because they learnt them badly in the first place :/
2017-06-26T08:13:57Z shka: dunno, i was never using it
2017-06-26T08:14:42Z shka: anyway, relations are not essential, transactions are essential
2017-06-26T08:14:50Z beach: I see.
2017-06-26T08:15:28Z shka: and for some retarded reason common non-relational models are not transactional
2017-06-26T08:15:34Z p_l: transactions are a different idea in general
2017-06-26T08:15:41Z p_l: shka: not models per se, implementations
2017-06-26T08:15:47Z shka: yeah, implementations
2017-06-26T08:16:04Z p_l: and that's because a significant part of people involved have no idea
2017-06-26T08:16:08Z shka: implementations are the problem
2017-06-26T08:16:22Z p_l: AllegroGraph for example is transactional and non-relational
2017-06-26T08:16:35Z p_l: IMS I think has transactions and it's a CODASYL database
2017-06-26T08:16:52Z p_l: rucksack is an object store and it had transactions :)
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2017-06-26T08:17:34Z p_l: Relational model, oriented around sets (though often broken by things like cursors etc.) gives powerful tools to *enforce* data quality
2017-06-26T08:18:48Z p_l: but it's not a model that fits all
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2017-06-26T08:28:37Z shka: beach: point is, relational DBs are popular because they are widely avaible, transactional, inexpensive and don't eat your data
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2017-06-26T08:28:56Z shka: not because they are relational ;-)
2017-06-26T08:30:26Z shka: and as for memory vs on disk
2017-06-26T08:31:00Z shka: most of modern DBs are using some sort of log structured merge b-tree
2017-06-26T08:31:12Z beach: Right, and because developers are submissive and docile enough not to scream at the top of their lungs "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore".
2017-06-26T08:31:13Z shka: so in fact they are both in memory and on disk…
2017-06-26T08:31:18Z BW^-: shka: wait what's *merge* b-tree?
2017-06-26T08:31:39Z shka: BW^-: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log-structured_merge-tree
2017-06-26T08:32:07Z shka: beach: money
2017-06-26T08:32:10Z BW^-: ahh right.
2017-06-26T08:32:16Z BW^-: be back in a minute
2017-06-26T08:32:30Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-06-26T08:32:31Z shka: BW^-: it is actually simple
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2017-06-26T08:33:10Z shka: store tree in ram, when node overflows and needs to be splited, put stuff on disk
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2017-06-26T08:33:21Z shka: so you will have top levels of tree in RAM all the time
2017-06-26T08:33:37Z shka: and writes to disk will be performed in batches
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2017-06-26T08:34:26Z BW^-: so
2017-06-26T08:34:27Z BW^-: back
2017-06-26T08:35:27Z p_l: RDBMS' main advantage was really "can support many concurrent operations" AND "doesn't eat your data" with added side benefit of "often makes sure the data makes sense at all"
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2017-06-26T08:36:29Z p_l: Then there was additional issues, like Oracle getting a lot of clients not because of Oracle RDBMS, but because of Oracle *Forms*, which is how a lot of Universities ended up with Oracle, afaik :)
2017-06-26T08:36:54Z shka: anyway, I don't have relational model
2017-06-26T08:37:02Z shka: *i don't hate
2017-06-26T08:37:38Z p_l: beach: usually developers that scream about "not going to use RDBMS, I want my Mongo" have a) no idea about tradeoffs b) thinking very short term c) very junior
2017-06-26T08:38:31Z p_l: There's an ocean of difference between many people here who I can trust to write their own data storage engine, and typical dev "outside" who screams about "I want my schemaless world"
2017-06-26T08:38:40Z beach: p_l: Point taken.  I should read up before making further comments.
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2017-06-26T08:39:15Z shka: beach: i advice against it
2017-06-26T08:39:23Z shka: beach: you don't want to know what mongo is
2017-06-26T08:39:29Z p_l: hah
2017-06-26T08:39:34Z beach: Heh, true I don't.
2017-06-26T08:39:38Z TMA: oracle reportedly won a government contract because they conformed to the SQL standard back then. then they added nonstandard extensions as a vendor-lock-in measure
2017-06-26T08:40:27Z p_l: TMA: Oracle is the king of "shady practices" in IT, indeed, but I don't think there was a SQL standard old enough for Oracle to not have extensions ;)
2017-06-26T08:41:58Z p_l heard that supposedly Oracle started numbering some product from 2.0 to make it look stable...
2017-06-26T08:42:50Z TMA: borland did that with their Turbo Pascal 3.0
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2017-06-26T08:43:40Z p_l: when it comes to RDBMS, my go to is always PostgreSQL, especially since it carries on legacy of what made RDBMS successful in the first place (unlike for example MySQL which was "ok, people seem to be buying RDBMS with SQL, let's make a hack that acts somewhat like it")
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2017-06-26T08:59:29Z p_l: Also, most RDBMS were designed with datasets wildly beyond available memory
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2017-06-26T09:24:26Z beach: p_l: Yes, but many data sets now fit in the RAM of a reasonable PC.  For instance a complete social-security database for a country, the register of all automobiles in a country, the bank transactions of all customer of a particular bank, etc.
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2017-06-26T09:25:54Z beach: p_l: But I often see inexperienced project leaders and developers that are unable (or too lazy) to make this back-of-the-envelope calculation, so they will pay way too much  money for something like Oracle without actually needing many of its features.
2017-06-26T09:26:57Z beach: p_l: Furthermore, when I do the calculation for them, they get *really* angry, as if, deep down, they didn't want to know the truth.
2017-06-26T09:26:59Z p_l: beach: dunno about other countries, but in many cases the issue is not "will it fit in naive memory implementation" but "will it not eat data, is tested to hell and back, can survive direct aircraft strike (not joking)
2017-06-26T09:27:41Z beach: Sure.  The cases I have seen were all non-critical applications.
2017-06-26T09:28:01Z p_l: but you just mentioned datasets which are all critical
2017-06-26T09:28:06Z TMA: beach: that's not entirely accurate. Given that there are several billion transactions even in a small bank, just storing their ID would eat a good chunk of RAM
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2017-06-26T09:28:39Z p_l: UV3000 is not a "reasonable PC", and one of its marked use cases is running single-instance DB for single ERP instance
2017-06-26T09:29:19Z p_l: said DB is in-memory store
2017-06-26T09:29:22Z beach: TMA: "several billion" is no longer that much.
2017-06-26T09:30:27Z Cymew: That sentence is so scary.
2017-06-26T09:30:41Z beach: p_l: I guess we have different criteria for "critical".
2017-06-26T09:31:17Z TMA: beach: if you consider that each transaction is several hundred bytes worth of data, that makes the total several hundred gigs -- that's not a "reasonable pc" anymore
2017-06-26T09:31:35Z beach: For a bank? Come on!
2017-06-26T09:31:49Z p_l: yeah, UV300H is marketed exactly at banks
2017-06-26T09:31:54Z p_l: among other things
2017-06-26T09:32:02Z beach: They spend more than that on their Oracle license.
2017-06-26T09:32:09Z p_l: they generally fit one application
2017-06-26T09:32:23Z p_l: beach: many banks don't use Oracle RBDMS for accounts
2017-06-26T09:32:37Z beach: Good.  What do they use instead?
2017-06-26T09:32:52Z p_l: there are specialized banking DBs used for decades, often with data storage systems tailored for particular bank
2017-06-26T09:33:08Z beach: I see.
2017-06-26T09:33:24Z p_l: Oracle, SAP HANA, etc. etc. shows up in analysis applications or various non-account parts
2017-06-26T09:34:16Z p_l: for example, in a project I work with, we use distributed in-memory store from Oracle (it was acquisition) for various "funds" data (it's called even "General Funds Manager")
2017-06-26T09:34:42Z beach: Despite what shka says, if I ever get the time, I should read up on all these issues and then form an opinion about the current state of things.
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2017-06-26T09:35:11Z shka: beach: you will loose your faith in the humanity
2017-06-26T09:35:20Z p_l: some of the most costly (in licensing and hw) systems are on the other hand low-memory (comparatively) but very highly available and more concerned with huge I/O rates as they talk all over the world
2017-06-26T09:35:26Z beach: shka: Ah, that happened a long time ago. :)
2017-06-26T09:36:19Z beach: p_l: That sounds like a very valid concern.
2017-06-26T09:36:28Z p_l: beach: generally, there's a lot of in-memory stores in play in OLAP, while many OLTP tasks are low-memory intensive but need disk for persistence and I/O for comms
2017-06-26T09:36:49Z p_l: meanwhile with OLAP it's all about "load as much data as you can so we can analyse it in all directions"
2017-06-26T09:37:10Z shka: one those not loose faith until he sees mongo + node.js stack
2017-06-26T09:37:18Z p_l: It's usually only big customers that can afford in-memory, though
2017-06-26T09:37:43Z shka: well, it changes though
2017-06-26T09:38:06Z p_l: shka: well, yes, but I am not talking about lazy programmers who go with "what is easiest without considering drawbacks"
2017-06-26T09:38:20Z p_l: I'm talking about design tradeoffs that might be taken by serious people :)
2017-06-26T09:38:48Z shka: what could be done and should be done is distributed, P2P, transactional, in-memory storage
2017-06-26T09:39:17Z p_l: shka: guess what we use... from Oracle
2017-06-26T09:39:32Z shka: so I people could stack large numbers of unexpensive machines together
2017-06-26T09:39:55Z shka: p_l: oh, so oracle is already doing it?
2017-06-26T09:40:41Z shka: anyway, just let me finish my thought
2017-06-26T09:41:19Z shka: it is EASIER to build relaible system out of large number of crappy parts
2017-06-26T09:42:52Z shka: anyway, single machine with 1TB of RAM is just huge single point of failure
2017-06-26T09:43:01Z phoe: it is EASIER to build reliable software out of large number of crappy developers*
2017-06-26T09:43:03Z phoe: FTFY
2017-06-26T09:43:07Z phoe ducks
2017-06-26T09:43:13Z shka: and nowdays, almost everything is supposed to run 24/7
2017-06-26T09:43:31Z shka: phoe: yes, because they are exchangable :P
2017-06-26T09:43:38Z shka: that's how java works :D
2017-06-26T09:44:18Z phoe: shka: where are our 1000s of crappy lispers then!?
2017-06-26T09:45:04Z shka: phoe: lisp is not exactly popular, dunno if you noticed
2017-06-26T09:45:14Z phoe: shka: I noticed, yes.
2017-06-26T09:47:10Z shka: well, until big business will be able to swap developers in their lisp project, you won't see lisp projects in big business
2017-06-26T09:47:19Z shka: sad but true
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2017-06-26T09:53:19Z ebrasca: shka: I am not sure about it.
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2017-06-26T09:53:36Z shka: that's good i guess
2017-06-26T09:53:50Z shka: you don't have to see it all bleak
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2017-06-26T10:12:23Z p_l: shka: Oracle is a lot of products, even if you discount the ones they bought
2017-06-26T10:12:37Z p_l: I think they have two or three in-memory offerings
2017-06-26T10:13:00Z p_l: the one we have here even in its name suggests what it is about (Oracle Coherence)
2017-06-26T10:16:02Z p_l: heh, then one hits the prices that show up for in-memory hw platforms
2017-06-26T10:16:28Z p_l: 3m USD for just memory, for example
2017-06-26T10:17:17Z p_l: or 1m usd for certified parts and 750k for "from the street" memory
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2017-06-26T10:25:25Z shka: lol
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2017-06-26T10:26:01Z shka: p_l: honestly, those prices are crazy
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2017-06-26T10:26:51Z phoe: they ain't crazy
2017-06-26T10:26:54Z phoe: they're "enterprise"
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2017-06-26T10:26:57Z p_l: shka: now consider that some of those machines require 2x the memory vs. what you can use, due to RAIM in mirror mode
2017-06-26T10:27:25Z p_l: phoe: "on the street" is the pricing without "enterprise markup" (actually an extra guarantee among other things, important when dealing with that kind of money)
2017-06-26T10:27:52Z shka: there is room for competition
2017-06-26T10:28:38Z p_l: and if you deal with things like z-series mainframes you have a machine that has 2.5 the amount of memory you can maximally spec, because mirror RAIM and that .5 for internal use by machine itself
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2017-06-26T10:31:10Z p_l: I heard anecdotes of a big z-Series losing whole I/O drawer under max load and it having not affected the application
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2017-06-26T10:33:47Z flip214: well, we've got a customer who didn't notice that his RAID controller was dead for two weeks, because the data was accessible via the software-mirror (DRBD)
2017-06-26T10:35:23Z p_l: flip214: this is more a case where the I/O of the system, which was under load (including things like mirroring to another machine) was unaffected
2017-06-26T10:36:06Z p_l: IO drawer is where things like Ethernet, Infiniband and FC (plus occassional ancient ESCOM) cards sti
2017-06-26T10:36:07Z p_l: *sit
2017-06-26T10:36:20Z shka: p_l: well, thing is that mainframes are expensive
2017-06-26T10:36:37Z shka: it would be better to figure out how to use commodity machines
2017-06-26T10:37:31Z p_l: reliable in-memory systems tend to be expensive as well, especially when you don't want to directly deal with disk (either huge expensive NUMA systems, or RDMA)
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2017-06-26T10:53:52Z shka: p_l: RDMA is getting cheaper, and besides, even without RDMA you can build reasonable system
2017-06-26T10:56:16Z p_l: shka: yes, but the latencies make it very far from "let's just think of memory instead of multiple completely disparate systems"
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2017-06-26T10:57:00Z p_l: and in my experience, companies balk when I suggest "ok, let me hit ebay, I'll have the 56GBit low-latency fabric ordered by tomorrow on the cheap" ;)
2017-06-26T10:58:11Z shka: hehe
2017-06-26T10:59:19Z shka: anyway, those would be different beast, i agree, but this approach has some advantage over ultra expensive huge IO mainframes
2017-06-26T10:59:56Z p_l: most companies that lease mainframes have very specific reasons for doing so (combination of RAS requirements, power, software base, etc.)
2017-06-26T11:00:17Z p_l: yet companies still develop on them
2017-06-26T11:00:37Z flip214: shka: rdma is already cheap.
2017-06-26T11:00:40Z p_l: (it would be interesting to have CL on z/OS ...)
2017-06-26T11:01:01Z p_l: flip214: if you're willing to hit ebay, it's cheaper than 40/10GbE
2017-06-26T11:01:05Z shka: flip214: *cheaper
2017-06-26T11:01:05Z flip214: you can get 56gbit IB, 2 dual-port adapters and 2 cables (so two machines can talk 112gbps) for < €1000
2017-06-26T11:01:35Z shka: you can have rdma over ethernet nowdays
2017-06-26T11:01:40Z shka: btw :P
2017-06-26T11:01:42Z flip214: and that's new, with guarantee etc.
2017-06-26T11:01:47Z flip214: shka: yes, ROCE.
2017-06-26T11:01:51Z p_l: shka: which is a) expensive b) not as good
2017-06-26T11:01:58Z flip214: even over virtual network links...
2017-06-26T11:02:07Z flip214: and the latency is much worse than with eg. IB
2017-06-26T11:02:15Z shka: it should get better
2017-06-26T11:02:17Z p_l: you can of course emulate RDMA, you always could
2017-06-26T11:02:18Z shka: over time
2017-06-26T11:02:25Z p_l: shka: it won't because ethernet is ethernet
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2017-06-26T11:02:49Z p_l: the changes necessary to make it reach the same perf as IB are fundamental
2017-06-26T11:02:50Z flip214: shka: ethernet resp. UDP have the checksum at the front of the packet.
2017-06-26T11:02:59Z p_l: there's also flow control
2017-06-26T11:03:05Z flip214: so all of the data needs to have been seen before the first data byte can be transmitted
2017-06-26T11:03:10Z flip214: so latency is worse than with eg. IB
2017-06-26T11:03:28Z shka: uhm
2017-06-26T11:03:36Z shka: i guess i don't understand it
2017-06-26T11:03:54Z shka: i thought that UDP has nothing to do with ethernet on it's own
2017-06-26T11:04:16Z flip214: shka: ROCE is doing RDMA over ethernet, by encapsulating the data in UDP
2017-06-26T11:04:25Z p_l: shka: there are some low-level details that impact how fast you can go with Ethernet without changing it into non-Ethernet, including how it's designed for Store-and-Forward data
2017-06-26T11:04:28Z flip214: RDMA hardware like IB doesn't need that
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2017-06-26T11:04:40Z p_l: flip214: and combining it with the weird stack for loss-less ethernet
2017-06-26T11:04:57Z shka: ok
2017-06-26T11:05:19Z shka: well, i can't be huge fan of ROCE i guess
2017-06-26T11:05:25Z p_l: shka: IB doesn't have store-and-forward inside subnet (most sites anyone sees are single subnet)
2017-06-26T11:05:39Z flip214: ROCE is still better than TCP, for some use-cases at least.
2017-06-26T11:06:00Z p_l: and has better flow control (token system) with actually working SDN ;)
2017-06-26T11:06:02Z flip214: and yes, ROCE can be routed... IB cannot (TTBOMK)
2017-06-26T11:06:21Z p_l: flip214: DoD has continent-spanning routed IB network
2017-06-26T11:06:36Z p_l: IB on purpose uses IPv6 addressing to make it easier
2017-06-26T11:07:20Z shka: p_l: what for?
2017-06-26T11:07:26Z shka: radars?
2017-06-26T11:07:38Z p_l: shka: or possibly linking supercomputers
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2017-06-26T11:07:47Z shka: right
2017-06-26T11:08:05Z flip214: IB uses IPv6? I thought low-level addressing is the 20byte address?
2017-06-26T11:08:17Z p_l: Netherlands used Myrinet on mixed Myrinet/10GbE links, in poland I think we did something shitty with plain IP... ;)
2017-06-26T11:08:45Z p_l: flip214: IB uses IPv6 *addressing*, and intra-subnet packets have 16bit address for wormhole routing
2017-06-26T11:09:32Z p_l: the 16bit addresses are internal affair of the subnet that software stack is not supposed to bother itself with (outside of management software for subnet itself)
2017-06-26T11:11:54Z p_l: it's much harder to do wormhole switching when you have to match complex 128bit addressing to ports ;)
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2017-06-26T17:34:29Z Posterdati: hi
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2017-06-26T17:37:10Z shrdlu68: Posterdati: hi
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2017-06-26T19:27:33Z rpg: I suspect that CL-DOT cannot handle subgraphs, but I'm not 100% sure.  Can anyone confirm?
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2017-06-26T21:29:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to figure out if lisp-namespace is conforming
2017-06-26T21:29:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I quickload it in Lispworks, I get an error about defining (METHOD DESCRIBE-OBJECT :AFTER (SYMBOL T)) visible from package Common-Lisp
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2017-06-26T21:31:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess this settles it: "Users can write methods for describe-object for _their own_ classes if they do not wish to inherit an implementation-supplied method."
2017-06-26T21:31:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs describe-object
2017-06-26T21:31:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_desc_1.htm
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2017-06-26T21:32:52Z aeth: I would guess that quite a lot of things do not run in LispWorks. e.g. I try to test in everything but clisp (too many missing non-standard features) and the proprietary Lisps. And things frequently have broken in subtle ways by the next time I test in CCL, ECL, etc.
2017-06-26T21:33:43Z aeth: e.g. Once there was an issue with the way I coerced some numbers between numeric types that only showed up in CCL iirc.
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2017-06-26T21:35:31Z aeth: Anything large and complicated enough has a good chance to not run in a random CL without testing finding some minor things that the other CLs tolerate.
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2017-06-26T21:37:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lispworks 7 works pretty well, actually
2017-06-26T21:39:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've found that usually it works just fine and, when it breaks, the fix is fairly simple
2017-06-26T21:39:44Z aeth: There are a lot of things that aren't in the standard but are de facto standard, and an implementation not complying can cause pain. e.g. CLISP has a 64-bit fixnum that's far too small, and doesn't have double-float or single-float specialized arrays.
2017-06-26T21:40:05Z aeth: So a library that assumes single-float specialized arrays and assumes that the Lisp will have them and type check and error if the type is wrong will not work as intended on CLISP.
2017-06-26T21:41:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but this isn't really a question of unspecified behavior: the standard doesn't allow users to defmethod DESCRIBE-OBJECT on standard classes.
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2017-06-26T21:44:35Z aeth: My example was bad... Looks like ECL doesn't type error like SBCL and CCL or just put the double there (because it's a T array) like in CLISP.
2017-06-26T21:44:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, there's code to pick the continue restart that isn't working
2017-06-26T21:45:42Z aeth: ECL might coerce, I'm not sure.
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2017-06-26T21:51:14Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Well, a similar issue pops up, then. Sometimes only one implementation follows the standard correctly, and the bug is only spotted because the code tries to be portable.
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2017-06-26T22:30:15Z scymtym: rpg: afaik, true for upstream. i have a branch that adds support for clusters
2017-06-26T22:30:42Z rpg: scymtym: is this branch available somewhere?
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2017-06-26T22:34:49Z scymtym: rpg: let me check
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2017-06-26T22:34:56Z rpg: Thanks!
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2017-06-26T22:35:39Z rpg: I was just looking at some ways to draw, e.g., DAGs with sink nodes, and the techniques rely on putting certain graph nodes is a subgraph, and then setting the rank on the subgraph.
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2017-06-26T22:37:40Z scymtym: rpg: https://github.com/scymtym/cl-dot/tree/wip-clusters i'm not sure clusters do what you describe, though. the way i use them is as nodes containing nodes
2017-06-26T22:38:19Z rpg: Can you draw links from nodes inside a cluster to nodes outside the cluster, or only to/from the cluster nodes themselves?
2017-06-26T22:38:32Z scymtym: also, the branch has some unrelated stuff because i'm waiting for https://github.com/michaelw/cl-dot/pull/21 to be merged
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2017-06-26T22:39:01Z scymtym: rpg: i'm pretty sure you can do both
2017-06-26T22:40:13Z scymtym: for edges to connect to clusters, the graph may need the compound=true (or similar, i don't remember exactly) attribute
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2017-06-26T22:40:51Z scymtym: rpg: this is one example of clusters: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/25.png
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2017-06-26T22:48:18Z rpg: I think clusters are a more expressive sub-class of subgraph.
2017-06-26T22:49:28Z rpg: I think I'll have to tweak it a little, because I'm not going to add clusters and then add their components, but rather add certain nodes to subgraphs in order that I can control their rank.
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2017-06-26T22:50:02Z rpg: I'm not sure why, but it seems like things like [rank=sink] only work as subgraph attributes, not node attributes.
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2017-06-26T22:55:18Z rpg: Yes, rank as an attribute is limited to subgraphs.
2017-06-26T22:56:32Z rpg: So I think my needs are different. I'm actually going to assign nodes to a subgraph more like assigning an attribute to them (i.e., I need to generate the nodes *then* generate the subgraphs), rather than generating clusters and then generating their population.
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2017-06-26T22:58:29Z vtomole: How do hunchentoot dispatchers work?
2017-06-26T22:59:32Z rpg: scymtym: I have the uncomfortable feeling that this means assigning graph nodes to subgraphs in a second pass after most of the other processing is done.  That sounds icky to me.
2017-06-26T22:59:39Z rpg: thanks! gotta run
2017-06-26T23:01:35Z vtomole: I  have this:  http://paste.lisp.org/display/349562 (the /public/ directory has a hello.txt). But when I do "(:a :href "html/hello.txt" "hello")" in cl-who, it can't find that text file.
2017-06-26T23:01:48Z scymtym: rpg: you're welcome. i hope there is something useful for you in the code
2017-06-26T23:01:58Z rpg: I'll let you know!
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2017-06-27T05:16:07Z flip214: vtomole: do you have (create-folder-dispatcher-and-handler) to handle static files in html/ ?
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2017-06-27T05:20:33Z vtomole: fli214: Yes. I also had: (setq *dispatch-table* (list 'dispatch-easy-handlers                              (create-ajax-dispatcher *ajax-processor*))). Later in my code to handle some ajax requests
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2017-06-27T05:21:07Z vtomole: fli214: When i commented that out it worked again. For some reason..
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2017-06-27T05:23:53Z vtomole: I'm trying to figure out why though. I'm not using the same *dispatch-table* variable
2017-06-27T05:24:34Z vtomole: The previous one is (hunchentoot:*dispatch-table*...)
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2017-06-27T05:33:05Z flip214: vtomole: well, "it does not work"... what do you see?
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2017-06-27T05:33:11Z flip214: a 404? no answer at all?
2017-06-27T05:37:05Z vtomole: flip214 Sorry, yeah its just , "/static/hello.txt file not found"
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2017-06-27T05:40:56Z flip214: and that's what the lisp side says, right?
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2017-06-27T05:41:14Z flip214: is that message about the URI not being found, or the file?
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2017-06-27T05:41:39Z flip214: ie. is the static file searched for in the wrong place, or does the folder-dispatcher not even run?
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2017-06-27T05:43:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-27T05:43:37Z easye: Heya, beach.
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2017-06-27T05:48:32Z vtomole: flip214: I changed the variable and it works now
2017-06-27T05:48:39Z vtomole: flip214: Thanks
2017-06-27T05:48:43Z shka_: beach: good morning
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2017-06-27T05:51:06Z vtomole: Man this bug has been killing me all day... I should defintely start to use some kind of testing framework.
2017-06-27T05:51:38Z ebzzry: What the Lisp version of ${BASH_SOURCE[0]}? (uiop:raw-command-line-arguments) returns only the basename of $0
2017-06-27T05:53:40Z ebzzry: s/the/is the/
2017-06-27T05:54:00Z vtomole: flip214: I actually have no idea what caused my bug. It works in the meantime.Maybe it will break again, I don't know.. Only time will tell.
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2017-06-27T05:55:16Z vtomole: I actually had a similar problem with cffi. It could not locate my .so file when i deployed it online. But it worked locally.
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2017-06-27T06:01:40Z beach: vtomole: Tests are good.  Testing frameworks I find are not terribly helpful.
2017-06-27T06:02:10Z vtomole: I playing around with prove right now:https://github.com/fukamachi/prove
2017-06-27T06:02:27Z vtomole: Does Fukamachi ever come here?
2017-06-27T06:02:35Z beach: I don't think so.
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2017-06-27T06:10:29Z vtomole: beach: Why are testing frameworks not helpful?
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2017-06-27T06:14:09Z beach: I find that using ASSERT is good enough.
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2017-06-27T06:55:22Z slyrus: beach: assert doesn't call itself. I've found that testing frameworks can be very helpful for automatically/periodically running tests. Thins like cl-test-grid are very useful for quicklisp's libraries.
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2017-06-27T07:09:26Z axion: Hello all
2017-06-27T07:10:04Z axion: I am trying to write a very simple function but falling short. I've outlined what I am trying to do here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349572
2017-06-27T07:10:39Z axion: Any help appreciated :)
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2017-06-27T07:17:45Z flip214: axion: looking for a solution, or want to program that yourself?
2017-06-27T07:18:13Z flip214: a library for that would be symbol-munger....
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2017-06-27T07:19:07Z flip214: well, I did a lot of perl, so I'd use cl-ppcre:regex-replace.
2017-06-27T07:21:29Z axion: flip214: I've annotated it with my solution, but I do not like it
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2017-06-27T07:28:50Z beach: axion: It is probably better to allocate a new string and more characters over as you traverse the input.
2017-06-27T07:29:39Z axion: Ok
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2017-06-27T07:31:54Z flip214: axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349572#2
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2017-06-27T07:32:09Z flip214: LOOP doesn't allow to put COLLECT into subclauses, so I used ITERATE instead.
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2017-06-27T07:32:36Z flip214: but you could do nearly the same with preallocating and a VECTOR-PUSH, of course.
2017-06-27T07:33:59Z axion: I am trying to not use third party librarie, else I would have used symbol-munger. The reason why is stupid...the other author of this software doesn't want dependencies for one-off functions.
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2017-06-27T07:35:44Z beach: flip214: There is probably no point in taking the string-dowcase first.  Might as well loop over the characters in the existing symbol name.  It saves an allocation too.
2017-06-27T07:37:33Z flip214: yeah, I just copy-pasted the existing code.
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2017-06-27T07:42:32Z flip214: axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349572#3  for LOOP
2017-06-27T07:43:41Z axion: How is that better than my new version just annotated?
2017-06-27T07:45:53Z beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+7HQC/5
2017-06-27T07:47:10Z axion: beach: flip214's is much faster it seems...but yours is much faster than mine
2017-06-27T07:47:24Z flip214: uh, I didn't benchmark.
2017-06-27T07:47:34Z axion: 100k ops, ~0.6s for beach. ~0.3s for flip214
2017-06-27T07:47:39Z beach: OK.
2017-06-27T07:47:45Z beach: Must be the vector-push-extend.
2017-06-27T07:48:02Z flip214: \o/    but that wasn't intended ;)
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2017-06-27T07:48:30Z beach: Instead of vector-push-extend, you might pre-allocate by counting the number of #\- in the original string.
2017-06-27T07:48:33Z axion: Thanks for the help though. I knew it could be done much better
2017-06-27T07:49:07Z flip214: beach: that'll traverse the data twice, trashing the cache on long strings ;)
2017-06-27T07:49:20Z flip214: not that this'll matter much, though.
2017-06-27T07:49:59Z beach: Oh, right, the cache. :)
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2017-06-27T07:51:18Z axion: To be honest, this is done once at macro-expansion time, for small strings, so :)
2017-06-27T07:51:30Z flip214: oh, then it won't matter.
2017-06-27T07:51:33Z beach: It's a fun exercise though.
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2017-06-27T07:53:02Z flip214: well, did you test with names like symbol--with--multiple--dashes too?
2017-06-27T07:53:19Z beach: I did not.
2017-06-27T07:53:28Z flip214: the results differ for such a case...
2017-06-27T07:53:43Z beach: I can imagine.
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2017-06-27T08:44:05Z shka: does performance even matters here ;-)
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2017-06-27T09:21:57Z beach: shka: No.
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2017-06-27T09:38:49Z shka: dim: not sure why (perhaps guys at #sbcl would provide better info) but it seems that arrays allocation in sbcl is somewhat cheap
2017-06-27T09:39:15Z shka: so i would try make-array approach and measure
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2017-06-27T09:50:10Z dim: thx
2017-06-27T09:50:24Z dim: actually I'm rewriting all the internal pgloader processing bits now
2017-06-27T09:50:36Z dim: will see how it still applies after I'm done ;-)
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2017-06-27T10:18:51Z jdz: If array element type is T then the array must be scanned on each GC; specialised arrays don't have to be scanned.
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2017-06-27T10:47:19Z dim: interesting, thanks
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2017-06-27T10:49:02Z dim: it's an array of arrays of :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2017-06-27T10:49:15Z dim: how would I specify that in the defstruct type form?
2017-06-27T10:49:55Z beach recommends using standard classes rather than structs.
2017-06-27T10:52:46Z shka: dim: slot-name 0 integer if i recal correctly
2017-06-27T10:52:51Z dim: beach, rationale?
2017-06-27T10:53:13Z dim: I mean I like structs, they are easy to declare and work with
2017-06-27T10:53:42Z shka: dim: usually structs are for optimization
2017-06-27T10:53:50Z shka: they are bitch to redeclare
2017-06-27T10:53:53Z shka: for instance
2017-06-27T10:53:59Z beach: dim: They are much more flexible.  For example, you can redefine a class, and the semantics are well defined.
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2017-06-27T10:54:22Z beach: Standard classes have better semantics I mean.
2017-06-27T10:54:57Z beach: They support redefinition and multiple inheritance.
2017-06-27T10:57:15Z dim: in that case I know I won't need that
2017-06-27T10:57:34Z dim: (short enough lived executions, no inheritance)
2017-06-27T10:57:50Z beach: So you exit your Common Lisp system whenever you redefine a struct?
2017-06-27T11:00:14Z dim: nope I don't, CCL makes it not that painful
2017-06-27T11:00:45Z dim: but the main idea is that the program I am writing is then shipped as a binary to its users, and only runs for the task at hand (importing data)
2017-06-27T11:01:27Z dim: it's not “exploratory” programming, it's utility distribution
2017-06-27T11:01:30Z Zhivago: These days compile cycles are pretty short, to be honest.
2017-06-27T11:02:07Z dim: I had lots of discussions here where the spirit usually is that you're in front of SLIME or something equivalent when you run lisp code, whereas my users don't even know the program is written in lisp...
2017-06-27T11:03:06Z dim: anyway, thanks beach for the rationale, it's one I had heard before and I don't think it applies to my case here --- not I also use classes in other areas of the code
2017-06-27T11:03:10Z beach: dim: It is not about the end users.  It's about being helpful to the developer.  But if you don't need or want the help, that's up to you of course.
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2017-06-27T11:04:23Z beach: I would like to know what CCL does to support the redefinition of structs, though.
2017-06-27T11:04:43Z dim: basically doesn't complain when you C-M-x over a new definition
2017-06-27T11:05:05Z dim: of course you still need to recompile all call sites, but that's a ql:quickload away
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2017-06-27T11:05:34Z dim: I don't have long lived instances in my test environment
2017-06-27T11:05:47Z dim: maybe that's another reason why I live with that
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2017-06-27T11:06:41Z shka: beach: well, i THINK standard allows to you to use same logic as in classes
2017-06-27T11:07:10Z shka: so perhaps they don't bother with any optimization of structs
2017-06-27T11:08:18Z Bike: you could use the same logic as classes. it says structure redefinition has undefined consequences. so an implementation can define it to work like classes, or not
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2017-06-27T11:12:31Z beach: That's what I mean by "support", i.e. what are the consequences in CCL when a struct is redefined.  I didn't mean that C-M-x is allowed.
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2017-06-27T11:13:30Z shka: well, if there is no all-to-familiar dialog from sbcl, i bet it just treats structs and classes the same
2017-06-27T11:14:10Z Bike: if you redefine a struct in sbcl it warns to recompile all call sites
2017-06-27T11:15:18Z beach: shka: I seriously doubt that.  Most implementations take advantage of the fact that it undefined in order to avoid the indirection of struct instances that is required for class instances.
2017-06-27T11:16:05Z beach: s/class instances/instances of standard classes/
2017-06-27T11:18:14Z beach: Once I get around to implementing structs in SICL, they will have the same nice properties as standard classes, simply because in SICL, every heap-allocated object except CONSes have a two-word header and a separate contents vector.
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2017-06-27T11:18:34Z beach: So the indirection is there anyway.  I might as well take advantage of it.
2017-06-27T11:19:13Z shka: now i just need to know what two-word header is…
2017-06-27T11:19:39Z shka: it surely contains tag
2017-06-27T11:19:43Z shka: not sure what else
2017-06-27T11:20:10Z dim: trying :type '(simple-array (array (unsigned-byte 8))), it seems to be accepted
2017-06-27T11:20:43Z beach: shka: No the tag is in the pointer that points to it.  The header contains a pointer to the class and a pointer to the contents vector (that I call a "rack").
2017-06-27T11:21:04Z shka: aaaaaah i see
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2017-06-27T11:21:47Z Bike: dim: that'll probably just be a simple-array t though.
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2017-06-27T11:22:20Z beach: clhs a-u-e-t
2017-06-27T11:22:20Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for a-u-e-t.
2017-06-27T11:22:23Z beach: Bah.
2017-06-27T11:22:33Z beach: clhs u-a-e-t
2017-06-27T11:22:33Z specbot: upgraded-array-element-type: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2017-06-27T11:22:46Z beach: dim: ↑
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2017-06-27T11:24:15Z beach: dim: An array (even a specialized one) must be represented by a pointer to some heap-allocated data, so if you want to store those in another array, that other array needs to be able to hold a pointer.  Most implementations would then use T as the upgraded array element type.
2017-06-27T11:26:06Z shka: actually, some implementations extend upon the above and allow stack allocated arrays (but that's extension to standard)
2017-06-27T11:26:44Z beach: Right, when I said heap-allocated, I included stack-allocated. :)
2017-06-27T11:27:02Z Bike: "probably not an immediate"
2017-06-27T11:27:02Z beach: I should have said "pointer to some blob of memory somewhere".
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2017-06-27T11:27:11Z beach: Right, that.
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2017-06-27T11:30:39Z dim: basically what I have is a batch of "rows" and each row is a set of columns, each column is a string
2017-06-27T11:31:28Z dim: then I prepare those columns for sending to PostgreSQL in the copy format, so then I (should) have a batch of simple-strings
2017-06-27T11:31:39Z dim: (each string encodes column separators)
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2017-06-27T11:38:26Z jdz: I once tried PG's COPY thing, and it was way slower than doing queries (using postmodern).
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2017-06-27T11:39:06Z jdz: For my use case, anyway (I'm moving around sizeable BLOBs).
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2017-06-27T11:40:15Z jdz: Serialisation to strings for COPY is quite wasteful...
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2017-06-27T11:44:25Z dim: so you did one insert at a time? or prepared a batch with many rows in the value statement?
2017-06-27T11:44:44Z dim: see https://www.depesz.com/2007/07/05/how-to-insert-data-to-database-as-fast-as-possible/
2017-06-27T11:45:14Z dim: copy did the job in 17.02 seconds --- best possible way of inserting with multiple rows was using 100 rows per statement, 100 statements per transaction, using prepared statements – it did it's work in 37.73 seconds.
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2017-06-27T12:47:21Z pjb: beach: how often do you write update-instance methods?
2017-06-27T12:47:58Z pjb: If you use defclass, normally you should write (or update) a update-instance-for-redefined-class method each time you modify the defclass.
2017-06-27T12:48:05Z pjb: I don't see it any easier than using defstruct.
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2017-06-27T12:49:57Z pjb: On the other hand, when you write applications (executable images), you have so many times to deal with that it is just easier to avoid data crossing them.  Ie. you have to minimize the data that is saved in your image, because most of it would become invalid anyways when the user reboots it.
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2017-06-27T12:50:35Z pjb: all the open files and streams, all the foreign data, foreign libraries, etc. So adding structures to the mix is not a big deal.
2017-06-27T12:51:07Z dim: and sometimes your application is not meant to keep state in between runs
2017-06-27T12:51:10Z pjb: Basically, defvar/defparameter with initial forms is a no-no, instead you set them to nil, and have a initialize function called at boot time.
2017-06-27T12:51:35Z dim: and you initialize from a configuration file, possibly .ini
2017-06-27T12:51:41Z pjb: Yep.
2017-06-27T12:53:16Z dim: ok after some careful consideration and a host of optimisation, I now deal with :type '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))
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2017-06-27T12:53:47Z pjb: Even the model we're using with slime, where we keep source files in an external file system to be recompiled/reloaded, imposes a development style and structure on the lisp image that is antinomic to the notion of persistent objects.
2017-06-27T12:54:17Z dim: (rather than using vector-push-extend I now count how many bytes are needed and pre-allocate the result at the right size already) (it costs an extra traversal but I think it's worth it in a memory hungry application)
2017-06-27T12:54:56Z dim: pjb: I usually have test cases that will re-init every needed object
2017-06-27T12:55:14Z dim: it's very rare that I have interactive things in cl-user (say) to play with in between calls and refactorings
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2017-06-27T12:55:52Z pjb: only when testing/developping.
2017-06-27T12:56:02Z pjb: Those are throwaway objects anyways.
2017-06-27T12:56:21Z pjb: (and again, you have a scratch.lisp file to initialize or re-create them).
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2017-06-27T13:04:15Z dim: I usually don't, I have test cases that are more like integration tests than unit-tests, those will recreate all I need
2017-06-27T13:04:42Z dim: e.g. with pgloader I test my edits with doing a full SQLite or MySQL migration to PostgreSQL, those tests run for 2.5s and 0.6s resp.
2017-06-27T13:08:53Z Xach: Hmm, can you recommend a system with an exemplary (asdf:test-system "...") setup?
2017-06-27T13:09:35Z dlowe: local-time!
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2017-06-27T13:09:55Z dlowe: at least I like it
2017-06-27T13:10:19Z Xach: Tusen tack
2017-06-27T13:12:28Z dlowe: Varsågod
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2017-06-27T13:17:44Z francogrex: hi I have users load a fasl file and use it (from another program)
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2017-06-27T13:18:02Z axion: Xach: Is it possible for salza2 to change the compression level when using the gzip compressor?
2017-06-27T13:18:23Z Xach: axion: No. There is only one algorithm in salza and it does not have tuning knobs.
2017-06-27T13:18:29Z axion: Ok
2017-06-27T13:18:30Z francogrex: i want to prevent users from loading and using an obsolete fasl (that they may have locallay copied and stored)
2017-06-27T13:18:45Z francogrex: what is the better way to do that in your experience?
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2017-06-27T13:19:20Z flip214: francogrex: a lisp implementation mismatch should be already detected, so you'd need to store your own version number, right?
2017-06-27T13:19:34Z flip214: would having the version in the filename be good enough?
2017-06-27T13:19:44Z flip214: I don't think that FASL allows selective loading...
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2017-06-27T13:20:04Z flip214: so the only thing that you could do is have the FASL store the version number in one special, the rest in another,
2017-06-27T13:20:10Z francogrex: flip214: we all use the same implementation
2017-06-27T13:20:33Z flip214: and if the version is acceptable split (and install) the rest from the other special
2017-06-27T13:20:34Z francogrex: i was thinking a date-control
2017-06-27T13:20:46Z flip214: (the latter might be as easy as (EVAL ;))
2017-06-27T13:20:46Z francogrex: but youir idea may be better
2017-06-27T13:21:02Z flip214: well, not necessarily.
2017-06-27T13:21:23Z francogrex: the version I can control better than the date
2017-06-27T13:21:25Z flip214: storing functions as an AST in the fasl, and EVALuating them, means local compilation etc.
2017-06-27T13:21:46Z flip214: or you could have the _expected_ version in a special _before_ loading the fasl,
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2017-06-27T13:21:57Z flip214: and have the fasl abort itself when the expected version is too new
2017-06-27T13:22:02Z flip214: that should be much better
2017-06-27T13:22:54Z dlowe: I seem to recall that in sbcl (load "lispfile") without an extension will load the most recently modified .lisp or .fasl
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2017-06-27T13:30:06Z beach: pjb: Often I have initforms that fill in the blanks.
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2017-06-27T13:33:06Z pjb: beach: it would be a problem if it was foreign data, and you'd save your lisp image: the foreign data would become invalid.
2017-06-27T13:33:41Z beach: Me, foreign data?
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2017-06-27T13:33:52Z pjb: ;-)
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2017-06-27T13:36:17Z beach: pjb: But, yes you are right.  Given the way we develop at the moment, the problem is not that great.
2017-06-27T13:36:32Z beach: pjb: I keep imagining myself as a LispOS user.
2017-06-27T13:36:45Z pjb: That would be different indeed.
2017-06-27T13:36:58Z dim: what would you use to profile a multi-threaded lisp program under SBCL?
2017-06-27T13:37:32Z dlowe: sb-sprof
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2017-06-27T13:38:03Z dim: as in http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Deterministic-Profiler ?
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2017-06-27T13:38:39Z dlowe: no, the other one
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2017-06-27T13:38:56Z dlowe: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Statistical-Profiler
2017-06-27T13:39:30Z dlowe: honestly, they're both pretty useful for different things
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2017-06-27T13:46:05Z shka: dim: you are using ccl, right?
2017-06-27T13:46:38Z shka: this one is portable: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/dkochmanski/metering
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2017-06-27T13:46:58Z shka: it is deterministic
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2017-06-27T13:49:56Z dim: I'm using CCL on the laptop, but remotely on linux systems, SBCL
2017-06-27T13:50:12Z dim: CCL isn't readily packaged for debian, and most users then use SBCL
2017-06-27T13:50:46Z dim: attempt to redefine the STRUCTURE-OBJECT class PGLOADER.BATCH::BATCH incompatibly with the current definition --- and now SBCL gives me that at first quickload of pgloader, even with a clean fasl cache ;/
2017-06-27T13:51:08Z dim: I can't understand where this “current definition” comes from
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2017-06-27T13:52:36Z shka: dim: ha!
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2017-06-27T13:53:45Z Bike: dim: on an sbcl you just started?
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2017-06-27T13:54:05Z dim: actually it's something I did I think the &aux and the :type are not agreeing
2017-06-27T13:54:14Z dim: the :constructor &aux sorry
2017-06-27T13:59:07Z dim: &aux (data (make-array max-count :element-type '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)))) and (data nil :type 'array) are finally compatible
2017-06-27T13:59:31Z dim: didn't work with :type '(simple-array (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)))
2017-06-27T13:59:32Z dim: anyway.
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2017-06-27T14:02:45Z ejt: hi, anyone here use slimv mode for vim?  I'm having some trouble getting the paredit 'wrap' command to work.
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2017-06-27T14:04:41Z dim: shka: having a look at dkochmanski/metering
2017-06-27T14:05:18Z shka: dim: it is nice if you have to profile on few implementations
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2017-06-27T14:20:06Z Reinisch: Hi ejt! I use slimv and vim. I know I've had some trouble with the shortcuts too, so I'll lend you the advice I've garnered.
2017-06-27T14:20:15Z ejt: Reinisch: great
2017-06-27T14:20:38Z ejt: whenever I hit ,W it just moves forward a word as if I'd hit w
2017-06-27T14:20:49Z ejt: I've tried changing paredit's <leader>
2017-06-27T14:21:04Z ejt: and commenting out a <leader>w command I had in my .vimrc
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2017-06-27T14:21:36Z Reinisch: I've found this aspect of using slimv challenging.
2017-06-27T14:21:42Z Reinisch: I use a custom leader key
2017-06-27T14:22:30Z Reinisch: for some slimv commands (like eval-defun, eval-expression), the correct shortcut is the one listed ( ,d or ,e)
2017-06-27T14:23:17Z ejt: I wonder if the problem is because I use <space> as my leader key in general, rather than ,
2017-06-27T14:23:20Z Reinisch: for others (like the paredit commands for wrapping or splicing), the correct shortcut uses my leader rather than the ,
2017-06-27T14:23:27Z ejt: ah
2017-06-27T14:23:33Z Reinisch: I use space too!
2017-06-27T14:23:47Z ejt: bingo!
2017-06-27T14:23:51Z ejt: that's solved
2017-06-27T14:23:52Z ejt: thx
2017-06-27T14:23:53Z Reinisch: yeah, I suppose the shorter version is "try <space>W"
2017-06-27T14:23:59Z Reinisch: no prob
2017-06-27T14:24:19Z ejt: so there is a bug in slimv then
2017-06-27T14:25:16Z flip214: I couldn't get myself used to paredit, so I switched that off
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2017-06-27T14:25:30Z ecraven: I love paredit ;)
2017-06-27T14:25:44Z ejt: y, I love paredit from emacs
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2017-06-27T15:30:40Z dim: ok the new writing of the code doesn't seem to buy much speed, but SBCL seems to be much happied with consing and its GC now behaves... apparently...
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2017-06-27T16:21:12Z drmeister: If I setq a symbol in the top level environment - it's assumed that it's special - correct?
2017-06-27T16:21:44Z |3b|: unspecified (many implementations do that, but i think at least one doesn't)
2017-06-27T16:22:59Z |3b|: (assuming it isn't a symbol macro or something which could make it defined, though even then it doesn't assume anything)
2017-06-27T16:23:46Z drmeister: No - I'm doing a (seq swank:*log-events* t) in clasp.lisp and *log-events* hasn't been defparameter'd yet
2017-06-27T16:23:59Z Bike: yeah, that's undefined.
2017-06-27T16:24:23Z Bike: usually the implementation will assume it's special, but maybe complain
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2017-06-27T16:33:49Z drmeister: Clasp's interpreter is choking on it - so it breaks slime.
2017-06-27T16:33:56Z drmeister: I'll fix it
2017-06-27T16:34:03Z drmeister: We are heading to the airport now.
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2017-06-27T16:43:27Z phoe: once I declare something globally special, is there a way to revert this and make it globally... uh, ordinary?
2017-06-27T16:43:35Z phoe: AFAIR not, but I want to check
2017-06-27T16:44:33Z dlowe: Nope.  It's special 4 lyfe
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2017-06-27T16:47:08Z phoe: (declaim (special dlowe))
2017-06-27T16:47:09Z phoe: ah-ha
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2017-06-27T16:55:52Z |3b|: yeah, closest is unintern and replace it, which is fairly limited usefulness
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2017-06-27T17:09:00Z Posterdati: hi\
2017-06-27T17:09:02Z Posterdati: so
2017-06-27T17:09:29Z Posterdati: it is paractically impossible to use /sys/class/gpio with common lisp :(
2017-06-27T17:09:58Z dlowe: Posterdati: what's the trouble?
2017-06-27T17:10:11Z dlowe: (I believe you, I'm just curious)
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2017-06-27T17:14:34Z pjb: drmeister: you can use defvar to re-declare it.
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2017-06-27T17:14:39Z pjb: (without an initform).
2017-06-27T17:14:59Z pjb: But if you're doing setq just after, just use defparameter.
2017-06-27T17:15:54Z pjb: (defvar *foo*) (defun f () (setf *foo* 'later))    (defparameter *bar* 'immediately)
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2017-06-27T17:35:08Z Posterdati: dlowe: problem is that it is not possible to configure udev to give necessary permissions to /sys/class/gpio/gpioXX
2017-06-27T17:35:42Z dlowe: Posterdati: I'm confused as to how this is a lisp problem
2017-06-27T17:36:07Z phoe: Posterdati: how can anything that's not lisp use gpio then?
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2017-06-27T17:37:35Z phoe: find out, and copy that approach.
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2017-06-27T17:42:42Z Posterdati: phoe: using c it works
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2017-06-27T17:45:37Z drmeister: pjb: good point - thank you
2017-06-27T17:46:30Z drmeister: We switched clasp to use the interpreter more - it revealed this problem when loading slime.
2017-06-27T17:46:31Z dlowe: Posterdati: when stating a problem, make sure to say what you did, what you expected to happen, what actually happened.
2017-06-27T17:47:14Z dim: (loop for item in list when predicate return item) leaves a taste behind, but #'find and #'some are not helping here, right?
2017-06-27T17:47:24Z Bike: Posterdati: so, what, you can configure udev from C? that doesn't sound right
2017-06-27T17:47:32Z Bike: dim: remove-if-not
2017-06-27T17:47:40Z Posterdati: dlowe: maybe common lisp is not a good choice for embedded computing...
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2017-06-27T17:48:05Z varjag: Posterdati: there isn't much to reading a file
2017-06-27T17:48:14Z varjag: you are doing something wrong
2017-06-27T17:48:36Z Posterdati: varjag: /sys/class/gpio are special files
2017-06-27T17:48:41Z dlowe: dim: I think you want find-if
2017-06-27T17:48:53Z Bike: oh, sorry, yeah that's find-if not remove-if-not
2017-06-27T17:49:09Z dlowe: well, if you want a list, remove-if-not is valuable
2017-06-27T17:49:26Z dlowe: alternately, (find thing list :test my-weird-equality)
2017-06-27T17:49:48Z Posterdati: varjag: you cannot open them with common lisp functions, you have to use iolib or cffi
2017-06-27T17:50:51Z varjag: ugh
2017-06-27T17:51:02Z Bike: why can't you open them?
2017-06-27T17:51:05Z varjag: so when you open them in sh, what do you use?
2017-06-27T17:51:21Z Posterdati: varjag: libc functions
2017-06-27T17:51:28Z varjag: fopen yeah
2017-06-27T17:51:36Z Posterdati: varjag: no
2017-06-27T17:51:40Z Posterdati: varjag: open
2017-06-27T17:52:05Z Posterdati: varjag: open and ioctl
2017-06-27T17:52:08Z varjag: no
2017-06-27T17:52:30Z varjag: you can 'cat' readable /sys files just as normal
2017-06-27T17:52:35Z varjag: in your shell
2017-06-27T17:52:54Z Bike: sbcl uses open(2), obviously inferior
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2017-06-27T17:56:08Z varjag: (with-open-file (s "/sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/max_brightness" :direction :input :element-type 'character) (read s)) >> 7812
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2017-06-27T17:57:20Z dim: Bike: good catch, thanks
2017-06-27T17:57:28Z Posterdati: varjag: try to write something in /sys/class/gpio/export
2017-06-27T17:57:34Z Posterdati: varjag: try to write something in /sys/class/gpio/export like 17
2017-06-27T17:59:19Z varjag: but my laptop doesn't have gpio nodes
2017-06-27T18:00:35Z Bike: i googled a bit and the first example i found is "echo 123 > export", which doesn't seem very magical
2017-06-27T18:00:51Z Bike: if you were more precise about the issue you ran into, it's possible we could find a solution
2017-06-27T18:01:40Z varjag: it is possible his computer doesn't have gpio nodes either
2017-06-27T18:02:10Z Posterdati: problem is that the driver creates the directory /sys/class/gpio/gpioXX as you echo XX > /sys/class/gpio/export
2017-06-27T18:02:12Z Bike: i think they said they got it blinking yesterday
2017-06-27T18:02:40Z Bike: okay, so it creates a directory. the problem is later?
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2017-06-27T18:02:44Z Posterdati: yes
2017-06-27T18:02:59Z Bike: and... what is it
2017-06-27T18:03:17Z Posterdati: I found that gpioXX has got no x flag for user and group
2017-06-27T18:03:42Z Posterdati: so I cannot open or fopen files inside them
2017-06-27T18:03:47Z Posterdati: so I cannot open or fopen files inside gpioXX/
2017-06-27T18:03:51Z varjag: are you running your c example and lisp example on very same machine?
2017-06-27T18:03:54Z varjag: under the same user
2017-06-27T18:04:08Z Posterdati: I always get lfp_open eacces(13)
2017-06-27T18:04:27Z Bike: https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/1117 seems like a whole deal.
2017-06-27T18:04:52Z varjag: no no must be a lisp problem.
2017-06-27T18:04:58Z flazh: wirte daemon running as root to acces gpios
2017-06-27T18:05:27Z Bike: you need to configure the XX directory files to have different permissions. that obviously doesn't have anything to do with whatever program you're using to interface with the gpios.
2017-06-27T18:07:12Z Bike: i don't know how ioctl would be involved. or even iolib.
2017-06-27T18:07:40Z Posterdati: Bike: I do not use ioctl for gpio
2017-06-27T18:08:17Z Bike: oh. earlier you said you use ioctl to open them.
2017-06-27T18:09:16Z Bike: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/gpio/sysfs.txt wow, edge interrupts. seems crazy and yet still more fun than verilog
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2017-06-27T18:26:08Z pjb: Posterdati: what's your umask before creating the gpioXX?
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2017-06-27T18:26:44Z Posterdati: 0022
2017-06-27T18:27:06Z pjb: ok
2017-06-27T18:27:47Z pjb: From the 1117 I understand it is actually created by a rules script. Have you checked it?
2017-06-27T18:28:03Z Posterdati: yes
2017-06-27T18:28:21Z pjb: And is it created according to the script?
2017-06-27T18:28:29Z Posterdati: no
2017-06-27T18:28:38Z pjb: So it's not a lisp problem.
2017-06-27T18:28:50Z pjb: Try #linux
2017-06-27T18:28:56Z Posterdati: in c/c++ works
2017-06-27T18:29:09Z pjb: Of course not, since it's a bash script!
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2017-06-27T18:29:41Z Bike: what do you actually do in C
2017-06-27T18:29:52Z Bike: just fopen? do you run it with different permissions? what?
2017-06-27T18:31:14Z Posterdati: same user, same udev script
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2017-06-27T18:31:20Z Posterdati: same operations
2017-06-27T18:31:43Z dlowe: strace the process to make sure it's doing the same operations
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2017-06-27T18:38:36Z ebrasca: Hi
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2017-06-27T19:06:56Z malice: Is there some Lisp library for imagemagick in quicklisp?
2017-06-27T19:08:44Z Xach: malice: I don't think so, though there are a few imagemagick lisp libraries like lispmagick and cl-magick
2017-06-27T19:09:11Z Reinisch: hi malice, to follow up Xach, see: http://www.cliki.net/graphics%20library
2017-06-27T19:09:13Z Xach: malice: i personally found it easier to construct command lines and call imagemagick tools on the command line than to try to make or use FFI bindings.
2017-06-27T19:09:24Z Xach: YMMV with your ffi comfort.
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2017-06-27T19:11:21Z Reinisch: also (depending on exactly what you're looking for) you may want to check out opticl here
2017-06-27T19:11:23Z Reinisch: https://github.com/slyrus/opticl
2017-06-27T19:11:26Z JuanDaugherty: cl-magick doesn't appear to be in ql
2017-06-27T19:11:40Z Reinisch: it's available through quicklisp (opticl)
2017-06-27T19:12:25Z Xach: I think quicklisp used to have a magick library, but it bitrotted against the library api, or something.
2017-06-27T19:14:16Z malice: I want to apply text to the image, to create meme.
2017-06-27T19:14:31Z Xach: hee hee
2017-06-27T19:14:45Z Xach: malice: i wrote a very successful website all in common lisp that does just that!
2017-06-27T19:14:53Z Xach sold it a few years ago though
2017-06-27T19:15:14Z Xach: malice: i used common lisp (vecto) to generate the text and imagemagick to compose the text onto the image
2017-06-27T19:15:37Z malice: yeah, I've found a utility here: https://github.com/cmdrkeene/memegen
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2017-06-27T19:15:50Z malice: but it's in Ruby, so I call it from inferior-shell making it a bit slow
2017-06-27T19:16:06Z malice: I mean, not too slow, but slower than it could be
2017-06-27T19:16:27Z Xach: You can try my old one at http://wigflip.com/roflbot/
2017-06-27T19:18:40Z malice: I see
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2017-06-27T19:35:58Z toon`: Hi. How to get substring from the end of string in cl?
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2017-06-27T19:36:35Z toon`: Is the only way to use reverse with subseq?
2017-06-27T19:37:03Z Reinisch: toon`: maybe (subseq SEQ :from-end t) or something?
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2017-06-27T19:41:41Z Bike: if you want to get the last n characters from s, (subseq s (- (length s) n))
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2017-06-27T19:49:59Z toon`: Reinisch: unfortunately the key :from-end allowed in find function, but not in subseq.
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2017-06-27T19:54:20Z Bike: does mine not work?
2017-06-27T19:54:24Z toon`: Bike: Is file-stream return character array with fill-pointer?
2017-06-27T19:54:52Z Bike: do you  mean "Does file-stream ..."
2017-06-27T19:54:58Z shka_: bah
2017-06-27T19:55:10Z toon`: Bike: yes Does
2017-06-27T19:55:17Z Bike: well, file-stream is a class
2017-06-27T19:55:35Z Bike: if you open a file, you will get a stream, not an array
2017-06-27T19:56:01Z toon`: sorry for my english :-)
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2017-06-27T19:57:34Z toon`: Bike: But type-of from read-line show that returned object is character array
2017-06-27T19:57:37Z Bike: the internet would be more boring if it was geographically constrained
2017-06-27T19:57:47Z Bike: read-line does not open a file. read-line reads a line from a stream.
2017-06-27T19:58:32Z Bike: you call it like (read-line stream). If you do (read-line), that's just short for (read-line *standard-input*), and standard input is a stream.
2017-06-27T19:59:06Z Bike: i don't believe that it is defined whether the string returned by read-line has a fill pointer. I don't understand the relation of this question to your initial question.
2017-06-27T20:04:32Z toon`: Bike: I see. My question is siple. If returned by read-line array have no fill-pointer,then function will be count character in array, that is not faster then revers. Certainly revers slower with all that memory alocation and string coping but in my case not much.
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2017-06-27T20:06:00Z toon`: Bike: And question how to do that in efficient way, get some chars from string tail?
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2017-06-27T20:06:13Z Bike: toon`: it's a string. the length is right there. O(1) operation.
2017-06-27T20:06:40Z Bike: ...right. yeah, no, in lisp strings are pascal style. a length is included. they're not null terminated or anything.
2017-06-27T20:06:57Z dlowe: but unlike pascal the length can be quite large :)
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2017-06-27T20:08:34Z toon`: Bike: Hm that is good in some way for strings. Mybe in pascal sting like in lisp? :-)
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2017-06-27T20:08:49Z Bike: maybe. i just learned the concept as "pascal string" for some reason.
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2017-06-27T20:08:59Z Bike: point is that an array is not just a pointer with no more information, like in C.
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2017-06-27T20:12:32Z toon`: Bike: Ok. I'll stick with lenght, tank you. I had cosider this erlier.
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2017-06-27T21:35:25Z dim: it's nice to see a day of efforts come to fruition, with SBCL RES memory bubbling from ~100MB up to ~500MB then down again
2017-06-27T21:35:55Z dim: I'm not sure how exactly but it seems like the GC understand better what's happening
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2017-06-28T02:48:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-28T02:49:38Z nydel: morning!
2017-06-28T02:54:41Z vtomole: beach: Morning
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2017-06-28T03:19:57Z vtomole: beach: In the Sequence paper, you show how SICL's find function performs better that SBCL. Has this function made it into the SBCL codebase?
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2017-06-28T03:25:44Z beach: I don't think so.
2017-06-28T03:26:07Z beach: I haven't tried to convince any of the SBCL developers to do that.
2017-06-28T03:26:36Z vtomole: The disadvantages don't seem that bad.. i don't think compared to the advantages.
2017-06-28T03:27:05Z vtomole: If it is fast for bit-vectors
2017-06-28T03:27:29Z beach: It is slower than that of SBCL for bit vectors, but that can be fixed.
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2017-06-28T03:28:12Z beach: I obviously think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but I am not going to put any effort into convincing the SBCL maintainers that it is worth it.
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2017-06-28T03:29:25Z loke: Have they been made aware of it?
2017-06-28T03:29:45Z beach: I don't know, and I don't care very much.
2017-06-28T03:31:50Z vtomole: beach: Why not? SBCL is the most used implementation. It would be good if it could reap the benefits of these functions and macros.
2017-06-28T03:33:49Z beach: Sure, it would be good for SBCL.  But that doesn't mean *I* have to make an effort.  I have so many other things to do.
2017-06-28T03:34:12Z beach: The SBCL maintainers very likely have other priorities.
2017-06-28T03:34:27Z beach: And I am not willing to spend time trying to convince anyone.
2017-06-28T03:34:32Z vtomole: beach: I would if i had enough knowledge to defend it...
2017-06-28T03:37:12Z beach: Also, frankly, it's a minor issue.  Not many people use the sequence functions on very long sequences.
2017-06-28T03:37:26Z beach: ... so performance doesn't matter much.
2017-06-28T03:39:41Z vtomole: beach: This is probbaly cause my tex program didn't build the PDF correctly, but this is the code that is displayed in the "Example implementation" section:http://paste.lisp.org/display/349628
2017-06-28T03:39:55Z beach: I have noticed that some of the SBCL maintainers care about time to build SBCL from source code.  The technique in the paper makes compile time *much* longer.  I am willing to bet that any suggestion for using our technique will be rejected for these reasons.
2017-06-28T03:39:56Z vtomole: There are not enough parentheses at the end
2017-06-28T03:40:57Z beach: Hmm, that's unfortunate.
2017-06-28T03:41:15Z beach: You might want to look for it in the SICL repository instead.
2017-06-28T03:42:51Z beach: I think a better idea than trying to convince the SBCL maintainers would be to create a separate repository that can be installed by SBCL users who care about the performance of the sequence functions.
2017-06-28T03:43:44Z vtomole: Are there a lot of those people?
2017-06-28T03:44:20Z beach: No.
2017-06-28T03:44:37Z beach: vtomole: I just checked the paper.  It has the correct number of parentheses.
2017-06-28T03:44:58Z vtomole: beach: Allright
2017-06-28T03:44:59Z beach: Look in the file app-implementation.tex
2017-06-28T03:45:13Z beach: in SICL/Papers/Sequence-functions
2017-06-28T03:45:19Z vtomole: There we go
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2017-06-28T03:48:01Z vtomole: Did a make clean and make again, stilll missing the end of that function. Oh well, probbaly need to reinstall TEX
2017-06-28T03:49:12Z beach: Strange.
2017-06-28T03:53:17Z beach: vtomole: So are you a student?
2017-06-28T03:53:27Z vtomole: Yes.
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2017-06-28T03:56:40Z jasom: beach: sbcl cares about compile time in general; partly because a lot more compiling happens at runtime than one might expect with sbcl's CLOS implementation
2017-06-28T03:57:15Z beach: OK.
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2017-06-28T04:01:31Z jasom just skimmed the paper; so it only affects compile times of the standard library, unless one were to inline the sequence functions
2017-06-28T04:02:14Z beach: Yes, it would only affect build time.  Not compile time as needed by CLOS.
2017-06-28T04:02:46Z jasom: but that means that you can't get efficient calls for known very short sequences unless you have a different implementation to inline
2017-06-28T04:03:28Z beach: Correct.  Yet another reason why I think it would be rejected by the maintainers of SBCL.
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2017-06-28T04:03:57Z jasom is looking at SICL/Papers now since there are papers he hasn't read in there
2017-06-28T04:04:37Z vtomole: Speaking about SBCL's CLOS, is there a difference between Portable Common Loops and CLOS? Cause SBCL has a "pcl" directory.
2017-06-28T04:04:54Z Bike: portable common loops is an implementation of clos
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2017-06-28T04:04:56Z beach: PCL is an implementation of CLOS.
2017-06-28T04:05:02Z beach: Heh!
2017-06-28T04:05:03Z Bike: and sbcl's pcl is based off the original portable common loops
2017-06-28T04:05:08Z Bike: sbcl's is certainly not portable
2017-06-28T04:05:50Z vtomole: And how does MOP fit into this?
2017-06-28T04:06:19Z jasom: IIRC PCL implements some, but not all, of MOP.
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2017-06-28T04:06:44Z jasom: MOP is not part of the common-lisp standard, but it's a de-facto standard in that most implementations include most of it
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2017-06-28T04:58:42Z axion: What would be an efficient way to remove characters from the end of a string until it reaches a certain character (value, not position), finally removing it and returning the result?
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2017-06-28T05:04:24Z axion: So, as a smaller input example than the intended use, "hello-world-foo-bar-baz/123/456" when operated on #\- would return "hello-world-foo-bar"
2017-06-28T05:04:33Z axion: Is this acceptable? (let ((str "hello-world-foo-bar-baz/123/456")) (subseq str 0 (position #\- str :from-end t)))
2017-06-28T05:04:52Z Bike: seems sensible to me
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2017-06-28T05:05:27Z axion: Ok, I just don't want it to be insanely slow, though I also don't want to be spending forever optimizing this part
2017-06-28T05:05:34Z axion: The datasets may be quite large
2017-06-28T05:05:38Z loke: axion: You just have to decide what to do if the character does not exist at all
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2017-06-28T06:02:08Z vtomole: How do I put a quote in front of an unbound to make it data? From hello to 'hello.
2017-06-28T06:02:40Z jasom: vtomole: I'm having trouble parsing your question
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2017-06-28T06:03:26Z jasom: quote prevents evaluation, that's all
2017-06-28T06:03:33Z axion: (quote hello), but you probably do not want to do that
2017-06-28T06:03:48Z axion: better to ask the real problem you are trying to solve
2017-06-28T06:04:09Z vtomole: I am getting raw data, and i want to write it to a string.
2017-06-28T06:04:35Z vtomole: But i cant do that without a quote in front of it
2017-06-28T06:04:38Z axion: define 'getting'
2017-06-28T06:04:49Z axion: and what is 'raw data' here?
2017-06-28T06:04:50Z vtomole: A user is entering input
2017-06-28T06:05:09Z jasom: vtomole: if you want to read a string, you probably don't want read
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2017-06-28T06:05:33Z jasom: vtomole: perhaps you want read-line instead?
2017-06-28T06:06:33Z vtomole: Thanks
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2017-06-28T06:07:35Z jasom: read is the same function used to read input e.g. for the REPL; read-line just reads a line in as a string
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2017-06-28T06:14:00Z nydel: it's be neat to use a read loop but as is i can only think of a way to do it with a carriage return at line's end. i'd like to do it with spaces signifying the next iteration and return signifying the end of recursion.
2017-06-28T06:14:51Z nydel: is such a thing possible with commonlisp? and if so, on what should i be reading documentation?
2017-06-28T06:15:40Z jasom: use a read loop to do what?
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2017-06-28T09:58:00Z tapioco: hi
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2017-06-28T10:11:20Z beach: Hello tapioco.
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2017-06-28T10:19:27Z dim: hi!
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2017-06-28T10:45:52Z tapioco: regarding the problem with gpio from sysfs, seems that udev took time to change rw permisisons for user and group, then CL is faster and cannot open files under /sys/class/gpio/gpioXX/value or other
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2017-06-28T10:46:51Z tapioco: if I use the functions from repl they worked! If I place them in the same sequence in a program they fail with permissions error
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2017-06-28T11:03:01Z ludston: Quick question: Is there a "blessed" short name for multiple-value-bind?
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2017-06-28T11:05:25Z dim: have a look at https://github.com/gwkkwg/metabang-bind
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2017-06-28T11:09:40Z ludston: Interesting lib, but otherwise no. Welp. Lucky nobody else has to read my code :)
2017-06-28T11:09:54Z _death: ludston: Paul Graham uses mvbind... if you keep your functions short there's no need to use a short name
2017-06-28T11:11:18Z ludston: _death: There is that then. Thanks.
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2017-06-28T11:13:37Z phoe: ludston: some people call it m-v-b
2017-06-28T11:13:59Z phoe: but standard Common Lisp has no shortcut for it.
2017-06-28T11:14:46Z _death: never seen m-v-b in code.. in a chat it's customary to use such shorthands
2017-06-28T11:15:23Z _death: also when typing.. then completing using `C-c C-i'
2017-06-28T11:15:26Z White_Flame: m-v-b tab completes to multiple-value-bind in slime
2017-06-28T11:16:51Z White_Flame: ah, didn't realize C-c C-i was the same
2017-06-28T11:17:12Z dim: C-i is TAB on qwerty keyboards
2017-06-28T11:17:41Z dim: C-c C-i works in your code buffers, tab on the REPL, right?
2017-06-28T11:17:45Z _death: TAB is ascii 9, I is the 9th letter
2017-06-28T11:18:05Z dim: I didn't realize ;-)
2017-06-28T11:18:37Z White_Flame: esc tab works in buffers, which is what I use
2017-06-28T11:18:57Z White_Flame: so does C-c tab
2017-06-28T11:19:03Z ludston: Such symmetry
2017-06-28T11:20:20Z ludston: I use alt-tab, for those who are wondering
2017-06-28T11:20:38Z White_Flame: so do I, but not for tab completion
2017-06-28T11:20:49Z White_Flame: :)
2017-06-28T11:23:08Z _death: if you use `C-q C-i' for example, it will insert TAB.. `C-q C-j' line feed, etc.
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2017-06-28T11:26:33Z dim: on qwerty yes, on azerty, not all of them, or none of them, can't remember
2017-06-28T11:27:28Z dim: another “nice” thing is that Alt-Tab is the same thing as C-M-i for Emacs, not for your usual window-manager
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2017-06-28T11:30:02Z _death: my usual window manager is stumpwm :)
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2017-06-28T11:36:14Z _death: dim: are you sure that it depends on the keyboard?
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2017-06-28T11:40:03Z _death: since it's a mapping from position in the conventional ordering of the english alphabet to ascii code, independent of the keyboard's layout
2017-06-28T11:40:04Z dim: I used to use azerty and lots of things you take for granted on qwerty simply doesn't apply there
2017-06-28T11:40:29Z dim: I switched to qwerty because I'm an Emacs user and couldn't stand azerty anymore for shortcuts
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2017-06-28T11:41:44Z dim: my rough uneducated guess is that the wiring isn't compatible due to needing more combinations for letters (such as à é ê µ and more that are directly available on azerty), despite sharing the same number of wires as qwerty
2017-06-28T11:43:13Z _death: maybe in some software there'll be a lookup table keyed by scan codes, and scan codes would be different.. but I never dealt with different keyboard layouts so not sure that is the case
2017-06-28T11:44:32Z dim: e.g. C-] is ESC in qwerty but not in azerty, that I do remember firmly
2017-06-28T11:45:42Z _death: well that's 27 :)
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2017-06-28T13:00:27Z varjag: is there any convenient way to typecase on array-element type?
2017-06-28T13:02:09Z dlowe: (typecase (array-element-type foo) ...)?
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2017-06-28T13:02:30Z dlowe isn't entirely sure this is a serious question.
2017-06-28T13:02:58Z loke___: dlowe: No. You have to use COND together with SUBTYPEP
2017-06-28T13:03:24Z loke___: You can build your own ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPECASE based on it.
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2017-06-28T13:05:19Z varjag: right
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2017-06-28T13:07:38Z knobo: By using (remove item vector), you might end up with a simple-array?
2017-06-28T13:08:20Z Bike: i'm not sure. clhs says the returned sequence is "of the same type"
2017-06-28T13:08:37Z Bike: oh, no. "If sequence is a vector, the result might or might not be simple"
2017-06-28T13:08:46Z loke___: Is the adjustableness part of the array type?
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2017-06-28T13:09:03Z Bike: not directly
2017-06-28T13:09:38Z Bike: varjag: what do you have in mind?
2017-06-28T13:09:59Z Bike: functions on arrays all preserve the element type, if i'm not mistaken
2017-06-28T13:10:16Z knobo: So I can not do (vector-push-extend (remove el vector))
2017-06-28T13:10:21Z dlowe: clhs also says typecase evaluates a form if "the test-key is of the type given by the clauses's type" which indicates a subtype comparison to me, but apparently not to sbcl implementors
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2017-06-28T13:10:41Z Bike: how would that be subtype?
2017-06-28T13:10:53Z Bike: typecase has an object, and if the object is of the clause's type, it does that clause
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2017-06-28T13:11:05Z Bike: knobo: seems not
2017-06-28T13:11:14Z knobo: Bike: but with delete?
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2017-06-28T13:11:30Z dlowe: wait, I will shut up now. Ignore me.
2017-06-28T13:11:43Z Bike: delete might also return a new array
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2017-06-28T13:12:27Z knobo: So I should do: (vector-push-extend new-item (coerse (remove item vector) 'vector))
2017-06-28T13:12:54Z Bike: that coerce won't necessarily return a vector with a fill pointer
2017-06-28T13:13:00Z loke___: knobo: I'd suggest using PUSHNEW instead
2017-06-28T13:13:09Z loke___: Oh wait. Vectors.
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2017-06-28T13:13:49Z knobo: loke___: but anyway, the push and remove is in two different functions. I'm just simplifying the example.
2017-06-28T13:14:08Z knobo: Bike: how do I upgrade with fill pointer then?
2017-06-28T13:14:13Z Bike: it's not as easy to write, but i guess i'd suggest not using remove/push, since you can do it without actually consing a new array oh well nevermind then
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2017-06-28T13:14:31Z varjag: Bike: simple thing, i want to generate alsa pcm format flags based on array element types
2017-06-28T13:14:58Z varjag: single-float, (unsigned-byte 8)..
2017-06-28T13:15:10Z Bike: well, the trick is to know which array element types exist
2017-06-28T13:15:45Z varjag: it's not a huge selection and i throw error otherwise
2017-06-28T13:15:58Z Bike: knobo: (make-array (array-dimensions original) :element-type (array-element-type original) :fill-pointer (fill-pointer original)). inconvenient, i realize
2017-06-28T13:16:39Z Bike: varjag: something like (cond ((equal (array-element-type array) '(unsigned-byte 8)) ...do shit...) ...) i guess.
2017-06-28T13:16:55Z varjag: right… that's where i am so far
2017-06-28T13:17:18Z Bike: or (typecase array ((array (unsigned-byte 8)) ...) ...)
2017-06-28T13:17:38Z varjag: hmm
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2017-06-28T13:17:52Z Bike: that might be faster, depending on underlying representation
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2017-06-28T13:20:36Z varjag: Bike: that should work on array subtypes too, right?
2017-06-28T13:20:41Z varjag: i.e. simple-array
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2017-06-28T13:22:28Z Bike: you can write (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)) sure
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2017-06-28T13:23:09Z _death: knobo: you could use REPLACE and decrementing the fill-pointer (or ADJUST-ARRAY) to remove an element
2017-06-28T13:23:30Z tonton: Hi! I've noticed slime is slow when calling an external command using sbcl with thread support (cf http://paste.lisp.org/display/349650)
2017-06-28T13:23:53Z _death: varjag: you can always write OCTET-VECTOR-P and (typecase ... ((satisfies octet-vector-p) ...) ...)
2017-06-28T13:24:58Z Bike: tonton: takes 12 ms versus 10 here. maybe there was some other factor?
2017-06-28T13:25:07Z tonton: seems to be an issue linked to slime, wondered if you already noticed this (I plan to investigate further)
2017-06-28T13:26:15Z tonton: Bike: without thread support, no difference, a soon as sbcl is compiled with thread support, 1 second of difference
2017-06-28T13:26:17Z varjag: Bike, _death thanks
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2017-06-28T13:27:37Z Bike: Oh, I'm sorry, apparently my sbcl is single thread. That's bizarre.
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2017-06-28T13:28:11Z _death: (time (uiop:run-program "/bin/hostname")) Evaluation took: 0.026 seconds of real time
2017-06-28T13:28:33Z _death: with slime and multithreaded sbcl
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2017-06-28T13:30:00Z _death: then again it's sbcl 1.3.18.104-674ae94ce
2017-06-28T13:30:24Z tonton: _death: thanks for your feedback. I'm using slime 2.19 + sbcl 1.3.18 under freebsd, can you tell me under which os you get those timings please?
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2017-06-28T13:30:42Z _death: ah, freebsd.. linux here
2017-06-28T13:31:54Z tonton: _death: Good, I'll make some tests under linux too then. I'll let you know if I find something.
2017-06-28T13:32:28Z Bike: if you do find a persistent problem, you'll probably have to reduce the case. use whatever sbcl function uiop calls for run-program, at least
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2017-06-28T13:34:07Z tonton: Bike: same performance issues with sb-ext:run-program by the way. Might be related to feeebsd/slime.
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2017-06-28T13:35:29Z knobo: So (map-into vector  #'identity (remove item vector)) (decf (fill-pointer vector))?
2017-06-28T13:35:57Z Bike: tonton: i just mean, if you get talking to the maintainers and such.
2017-06-28T13:36:27Z knobo: But then I could use delete instead. But i might have a bug here with delete.
2017-06-28T13:36:28Z _death: knobo: there are some issues.. if the item is not in vector, or appears multiple times..
2017-06-28T13:36:49Z knobo: _death: :count 1
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2017-06-28T13:37:25Z Bike: oh, hey. i built with --fancy and suddenly run program takes a whole second
2017-06-28T13:37:56Z Bike: on darwin
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2017-06-28T13:38:05Z knobo: _death: yes. the adjusting of fill-pointer
2017-06-28T13:38:17Z tonton: Bike: ok, good to know.
2017-06-28T13:39:14Z Bike: i also moved it up to .105, wonder if there was a regressionn... thing
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2017-06-28T13:40:43Z _death: knobo: perhaps DELETE is the one to consider.. even if it becomes a quality-of-implementation issue
2017-06-28T13:40:56Z tonton: Bike: looks like slime behaviour under threaded environments is really different, I'll dig later on. Thanks for your tests!
2017-06-28T13:41:13Z knobo: _death: I'm having some issues with delete here.
2017-06-28T13:41:43Z knobo: I'm ending up with an array with several of the same item.
2017-06-28T13:41:55Z Bike: tonton: tell me if i can help with anything else.
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2017-06-28T13:42:30Z tonton: Bike: fine, I'll let you know...
2017-06-28T13:43:01Z _death: knobo: produce a test case
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2017-06-28T13:44:05Z knobo: _death: yes.. It will take some time though.
2017-06-28T13:45:11Z knobo: not sure it's so easy without the whole web server setup.
2017-06-28T13:45:57Z knobo: and then digging in to the event-emitter library.
2017-06-28T13:46:18Z _death: knobo: I assume you know that you should always use the result of DELETE
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2017-06-28T13:47:26Z knobo: _death: yes I do (or, it does)
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2017-06-28T13:55:45Z knobo: I ended up replacing (delete item vector) with (alexandria:copy-array (remove item vector) :fill-pointer t), and the bug was removed.
2017-06-28T13:56:06Z knobo: So maybe there is a bug in the implementation of delete
2017-06-28T13:56:40Z knobo: or the fact that vector-push-extend should not be used on the result of delete
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2017-06-28T13:59:18Z _death: you should still look into it
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2017-06-28T14:00:46Z dim: doing (unless (member (type-of condition) '(cli-parsing-error source-definition-error)) ...) in an handler-bind form
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2017-06-28T14:01:07Z dim: so, is there a way for the handler to avoid getting listed for those conditions without doing that?
2017-06-28T14:01:19Z dim: also, how can I express "I didn't process 'em really?"
2017-06-28T14:01:40Z Bike: you mean, so that the condition is still signaled to outer handlers?
2017-06-28T14:02:06Z Bike: and for the first thing, you can use full type specifiers, so you can do (and overall-condition (not (or cli-parsing-error))) and stuff
2017-06-28T14:02:07Z _death: (and supertype (not subtype))
2017-06-28T14:02:31Z dim: ah thanks, didn't find the not for type specifiers in a quick reading of the standard
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2017-06-28T14:04:01Z dim: now trying, and it renders the signaling to outer handlers question moot of course
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2017-06-28T14:06:17Z dim: I am using a monitor thread that among other roles is outputing log messages to the console and a log file, and of course it didn't have time to output precious messages when I close the program :/
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2017-06-28T14:12:11Z dim: (looks like I might have used (unwind-protect ,@body ...) instead of (unwind-protect (progn ,@body) ...) in a macro. ahah.
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2017-06-28T14:15:27Z Xach: ouf
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2017-06-28T14:19:23Z dim: it is!
2017-06-28T14:19:47Z dim: (ouf in french can mean pfff or pfiou, or also fou, which is crazy in english) ;-)
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2017-06-28T14:20:59Z dim: ok, sometimes I still don't get the output, but it happens rarely, threads don't really want to process it all it seems
2017-06-28T14:21:07Z dlowe: Not to be confused with oeuf
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2017-06-28T14:23:37Z jdz: dim: another thing that has bit me a couple times is the use of PROGN instead of MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROGN.
2017-06-28T14:23:38Z dim: « œuf »
2017-06-28T14:23:57Z dim: (with french quotes, no breaking spaces, and the œ french letter)
2017-06-28T14:24:12Z dim: anyway, english is easier to type, mostly
2017-06-28T14:24:14Z jdz: Umm, make that PROG1 and MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG1.
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2017-06-28T14:27:06Z pjb: (defmacro multiple-value-progn (&body body) `(progn ,@body))
2017-06-28T14:27:59Z jdz: Yes, very useful.
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2017-06-28T14:29:45Z dim: are you using multiple values a lot?
2017-06-28T14:30:12Z dim: I tend to prefer returning a plist and use (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) ...)
2017-06-28T14:30:15Z pjb: Often enough.
2017-06-28T14:30:30Z pjb: multiple values are more efficient.
2017-06-28T14:30:40Z pjb: no consing, faster, register based, etc.
2017-06-28T14:30:44Z dim: good to know, thanks
2017-06-28T14:31:22Z dim: so many optimisation tricks to apply to pgloader still...
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2017-06-28T14:47:09Z _death: this plist use is not extensible, unless you add &allow-other-keys ... you could just use a class or a structure
2017-06-28T14:50:30Z dim: I usually do that "just" for helper functions
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2017-06-28T15:16:16Z Murii: Are there any books or papers on how I can write an interpretor for Lisp in C?
2017-06-28T15:16:56Z Xach: Murii: Lisp in Small Pieces is a good book on implementing Lisp.
2017-06-28T15:17:01Z beach: Murii: Yes, there are a few.  What is the purpose of this exercise?
2017-06-28T15:17:12Z Bike: you mean some toy lisp? i'd just read examples. lisp500, memory pool system's scheme, maru
2017-06-28T15:17:21Z phoe: Murii: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours and http://www.buildyourownlisp.com/
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2017-06-28T15:18:48Z beach: Murii: I am asking about the purpose of the exercise, because there is no particular reason to write an interpreter, and there is no particular reason to use C to implement Common Lisp.
2017-06-28T15:19:44Z Murii: I want to prove myself I can. I tried to write it using only me head but I didn't end up too far so now I'm asking for help :\
2017-06-28T15:20:19Z beach: Murii: Does it have to be Common Lisp, or could it be a simpler language?
2017-06-28T15:20:22Z beach: Murii: Common Lisp is pretty complex.
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2017-06-28T15:20:24Z Murii: phoe, Build Your Own Lisp using npc or however it's called
2017-06-28T15:20:26Z Murii: no thx :)
2017-06-28T15:20:42Z Murii: beach, I want it to be simple
2017-06-28T15:20:44Z Murii: nothing fancy
2017-06-28T15:20:53Z Murii: my purpose is to use it as a scripting language for my future projects
2017-06-28T15:21:11Z Bike: you should just an established one like lua or guile.
2017-06-28T15:21:14Z phoe: ^
2017-06-28T15:21:24Z Bike: writing an interpreter in C will be a nightmare of maintenance problems.
2017-06-28T15:21:27Z Murii: I'm already using Lua for my game framework
2017-06-28T15:21:28Z phoe: use something that's tested and relatively debugged, or waste time reinventing the wheel.
2017-06-28T15:21:29Z Murii: now I want lisp
2017-06-28T15:21:33Z Bike: well, guile, then.
2017-06-28T15:21:41Z phoe: Guile or Chicken Scheme.
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2017-06-28T15:22:01Z beach: Bike: "I want to prove [to] myself [that] I can".
2017-06-28T15:22:25Z phoe: beach: "my purpose is to use it as a scripting language for my future projects"
2017-06-28T15:22:38Z phoe: proving to oneself that one can write a language interpreter is one thing
2017-06-28T15:22:50Z phoe: having a *working* scripting language for future projects is another
2017-06-28T15:22:58Z beach: They are orthogonal goals indeed.
2017-06-28T15:23:15Z phoe: there's nothing better than writing your own simple Lisp - I did that in Haskell
2017-06-28T15:23:25Z _death: the txr project may also be of interest
2017-06-28T15:23:36Z phoe: but if I'm scripting for a game or other tool, the last thing I want is to debug the tool that I'm using for that
2017-06-28T15:24:23Z Murii: The idea is stuck in my head so I can't abandonate it
2017-06-28T15:24:35Z Bike: well, write an example then.
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2017-06-28T15:25:00Z Bike: maru is the simplest i know of that isn't terrible. it even has a garbage collector. MPS does too, but MPS is kind of involved. alternately you could use boehm
2017-06-28T15:25:57Z Murii: The idea is to write it myself. I'll search for some books or papers on the internet and see what I can use
2017-06-28T15:26:46Z Bike: right, i meant code to read.
2017-06-28T15:26:49Z beach: Murii: Lisp in Small Pieces has been recommended.  There is also an older book called "Anatomy of Lisp" which has some parts that are directly useful.
2017-06-28T15:26:50Z Bike: learn from
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2017-06-28T15:28:58Z beach: Murii: What kind of future projects do you have that need a scripting language?
2017-06-28T15:29:20Z larsen: "If there is a bug with your code or the compiler, trust the compiler, unless you wrote the compiler, in which case there is a 50% chance that it's the compiler."
2017-06-28T15:30:22Z beach: Murii: I am asking because there is usually no particular reason to use a language other than Common Lisp.
2017-06-28T15:31:02Z beach: Murii: And most people who think that such a reason exists, are the ones that have no idea about what Common Lisp is or what it can do.
2017-06-28T15:31:07Z loke____: beach: There is one that I can think of: Client-side web development. I'd love to be wrong on that though.
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2017-06-28T15:37:08Z beach: loke____: I must take your word for it.  I did use qualifiers such as "usually" and "most" in order to avoid being too categorical.
2017-06-28T15:37:36Z loke____: beach: Damn, I was hoping there was some amazing toolkit that I didn't know about :-)
2017-06-28T15:38:03Z beach: loke____: That might still be the case.
2017-06-28T15:38:09Z dlowe: we'll have to wait for our CL -> webassembly compiler
2017-06-28T15:38:13Z loke____: It's a bit sad that Clojure is a practical choice to use on the browser side, where CL is not.
2017-06-28T15:38:22Z loke____: dlowe: Is there one?
2017-06-28T15:38:31Z dlowe: loke____: that's the waiting part
2017-06-28T15:38:59Z loke____: dlowe: I wonder which of the current implementations are most likely to be ported to webassembly.
2017-06-28T15:39:03Z loke____: Clasp possibly.
2017-06-28T15:39:23Z _death: there's jscl
2017-06-28T15:39:32Z loke____: _death: What is that?
2017-06-28T15:39:40Z _death: https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl
2017-06-28T15:39:50Z loke____: OK, I did not know about that one.
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2017-06-28T15:48:21Z loke____: OK, checked it out
2017-06-28T15:48:52Z loke____: It's not clear to me how you'd deploy it in a browser. Also, it doesn't implement CLOS
2017-06-28T15:48:59Z loke____: But it's a good start.
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2017-06-28T15:56:13Z _death: nowadays I have javascript turned off and use a different browser for the few sites I care about that need it, so if I needed to do web development it'd likely be good ol' server-side work with a dumb client.. of course, I'm not constrained by a job :)
2017-06-28T15:57:44Z tonton: Bike: swank use the :spawn communication style for threaded sbcl, switching to to :FD-HANDLER provide a temporary workaround
2017-06-28T15:58:30Z tonton: Bike: using (setq SWANK:*COMMUNICATION-STYLE* :FD-HANDLER) in ~/.swank.lisp
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2017-06-28T15:59:59Z tonton: Bike: now I'll get my hand dirty and see why :spawn give those results under freebsd (and darwin) systems
2017-06-28T16:00:48Z pjb: You can write an interpreter or compiler of a SUBSET of Common Lisp.  This would be the best choice.  The only added difficulty compared to scheme is that CL is a lisp-2, so you need to have more slots in your environment.
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2017-06-28T16:01:18Z pjb: Bike: use clisp for scripts!
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2017-06-28T16:13:15Z jasom: loke____: fwiw, clisp and ecl are both non-starters for emscripten.  They both assume a unix-style stack
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2017-06-28T16:15:59Z loke____: Thanks jasom
2017-06-28T16:16:13Z loke____: Fixing jscl is probably the best approach
2017-06-28T16:16:17Z jasom: sbcl assumes that code can be put on the heap and run
2017-06-28T16:16:18Z loke____: Anyway, time to sleep now
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2017-06-28T16:18:48Z Bike: pjb: ??
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2017-06-28T16:23:04Z jasom: hmm, if you had delimited continuations in CL, how would you expect unwind-protect to work with them
2017-06-28T16:25:47Z Bike: doesn't scheme have some super complicated thing instead of unwind protect for just that reason
2017-06-28T16:26:21Z jasom: http://okmij.org/ftp/papers/DDBinding.pdf has a sane way of doing dynamic binding, but I'm not convinced it can be extended to an unwind-protect with side-effects
2017-06-28T16:26:21Z Bike: dynamic-wind
2017-06-28T16:27:04Z jasom: Bike: IIRC they also have a "only run on non-local exits" form that isn't affected by call/cc
2017-06-28T16:28:35Z jasom: hmm I was thinking of a guile extension apparently
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2017-06-28T16:30:02Z Bike: i guess dynamic wind is just unwind protect but there's also a nonlocal entry cleanup, that doesn't seem too bad
2017-06-28T16:30:08Z jasom: yeah
2017-06-28T16:35:10Z Bike: the first time i saw a detailed explanation of it it was combined with something like handler-bind, and it went in both directions
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2017-06-28T17:35:53Z Posterdati: hi
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2017-06-28T17:54:19Z flip214: Is there a way to have QL compile independent systems in parallel?
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2017-06-28T17:55:11Z Bike: there's a thing called poiu to do that, by forking the process
2017-06-28T17:55:31Z Bike: on sbcl the compiler does not run concurrently, so you have to do that kind of thing (not sure about ccl etc)
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2017-06-28T18:01:57Z jasom: was poiu before or after xcvb?
2017-06-28T18:02:13Z jasom: poiu does not work on ccl
2017-06-28T18:02:31Z jasom: or rather it only works if you patch ccl; qitab had a patch for it at some point
2017-06-28T18:02:35Z Bike: i think it's separate
2017-06-28T18:03:10Z Bike: and it had an .xcvb file when i looked at it
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2017-06-28T18:04:10Z jasom: also note that a large fraction of quicklisp projects have :serial t set so poiu gets zero gain
2017-06-28T18:04:20Z flip214: Bike: for SBCL compilation itself there's SBCL_MAKE_PARALLEL, so why not do something similar in QL?
2017-06-28T18:04:46Z flip214: jasom: but across multiple ASDF systems it would help.
2017-06-28T18:04:56Z Bike: because QL just uses ASDF
2017-06-28T18:05:04Z flip214: Eg. after compiling a new SBCL, recompiling all the QL systems might be done much faster.
2017-06-28T18:05:08Z Bike: asdf does do, like, multiple systems
2017-06-28T18:05:24Z jasom: forking rather than threads is more deterministic, as it will discard any changes to the global environment caused by compiling
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2017-06-28T18:08:05Z jasom: It looks like poiu predates xcvb; it was clear that there was influence, and they both came from ITA
2017-06-28T18:08:50Z jasom: on the other hand, poiu looks to be alive while xcvb is mostly abandoned
2017-06-28T18:09:13Z Bike: i was looking into it a bit since clasp can at least run the compiler concurrently
2017-06-28T18:09:31Z Bike: tragically, i cannot even remotely understand poiu source
2017-06-28T18:11:41Z jasom: At a high level it's just a parallel{ fork() compile}; load, but getting it right is non-trivial, and there's a lot of inversion of control with ASDF
2017-06-28T18:12:15Z Bike: yeah what i mean is, i wanted to do compile instead of fork, but i tried to understandn action plans and something in me died
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2017-06-28T18:37:40Z pjb: beach: Capability Hardware Enhanced RISC Instructions (CHERI) http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/
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2017-06-28T19:15:24Z dim: restart-case are only usable from handler-bind right?
2017-06-28T19:15:52Z dim: (I would like to select it from handler-case here, but maybe I just don't understand what I'm doing at this point)
2017-06-28T19:16:23Z jasom: dim: the restart needs to be available; with handler-case the stack has already unwound so it's not going to work
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2017-06-28T19:17:59Z dim: well in my case I need to redo all I've done in the function, so I don't need to stay at my position in the stack
2017-06-28T19:18:15Z jasom: dim: then you probably also don't need a restart, right?
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2017-06-28T19:22:06Z dim: right
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2017-06-28T19:43:35Z dim: (handler-bind (((x ...)) (handler-case (error ...) (condition (c) x)))
2017-06-28T19:43:43Z dim: oops
2017-06-28T19:44:02Z dim: (handler-bind (((b ...)) (handler-case (error ...) (condition (c) x)))
2017-06-28T19:44:16Z dim: b is the bind, x the case ; x is executed first right?
2017-06-28T19:44:55Z Bike: yes, and then the handler bind handlers won't be executed at all, unless x signals
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2017-06-28T19:46:59Z dim: (handler-bind ((condition (lambda (c) (format t "bind: ~a~%" c)))) (handler-case (error 'cl-postgres-error::crash-shutdown :message "plop") (cl-postgres-error::crash-shutdown (condition) (format t "case: ~a~%" condition))))
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2017-06-28T19:47:04Z dim: yeah, small test confirms
2017-06-28T19:47:18Z dim: so I don't know why my code doesn't handle the signal where I expect it too :/
2017-06-28T19:47:56Z Bike: you mean, you have a handler case, and there's an error, and its handler isn't firing?
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2017-06-28T19:48:22Z pjb: It may be clumsy to handle CONDITION, since there may be implementation specific non-error conditions that are essential to the good working of the implementation that need to be handled (by the implementation).
2017-06-28T19:48:42Z Bike: i was assuming that it was just for testing/example
2017-06-28T19:49:50Z Posterdati: pjb: I solved the problem with sysfs gpio
2017-06-28T19:49:51Z dim: condition, I should refrain yes, but then unexpected behavior happens leaving users in the interactive debugger
2017-06-28T19:50:06Z dim: I have to run now, will try again later, thanks for your help guys
2017-06-28T19:50:12Z Posterdati: pjb: problem seems to be related to udev, not lisp itself
2017-06-28T19:50:15Z dim: Bike: and yes the handler-case isn't firing
2017-06-28T19:50:35Z Posterdati: pjb: even if c version worked
2017-06-28T19:51:42Z Posterdati: pjb: basically I export the gpio, then poll the stat of gpioXX to see if (and mode #o664) = #o664
2017-06-28T19:52:01Z dim: ahah found it I think (famous last words)
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2017-06-28T19:53:41Z dim: yeah, got it it seems
2017-06-28T19:53:45Z Bike: you run quickly
2017-06-28T19:54:02Z dim: one command was before the handler-case and that's where the condition was signaled
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2017-06-28T19:54:49Z dim: (let () (execute ...) (handler-case ... (shutdown-error (c) ...)))
2017-06-28T19:54:50Z dim: anyway
2017-06-28T19:54:56Z dim: Bike: now I have to run even faster ;-)
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2017-06-28T19:56:39Z Posterdati: Bike: so no problem with lisp at all against sysfs special files :)
2017-06-28T19:56:52Z Bike: cool
2017-06-28T19:57:20Z Posterdati: Bike: I was forced to poll stat mode for /sys/class/gpio/gpioXX
2017-06-28T19:57:45Z Posterdati: until (and mode #o664) equals #o664
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2017-06-28T19:58:24Z Posterdati: Bike: infact the common lisp program is faster than udev :)
2017-06-28T19:58:53Z Posterdati: Bike: I cannot completely explain because a c example worked instead!
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2017-06-28T19:59:12Z Bike: well, as long as it worked out in the end
2017-06-28T19:59:16Z pjb: Posterdati: do you mean you wanted to test (= #o664 (logand #o664 mode)) ?
2017-06-28T19:59:30Z Posterdati: pjb: yes
2017-06-28T19:59:31Z pjb: Posterdati: or do you mean that mode could be nil?
2017-06-28T19:59:50Z pjb: (= (or mode #o664) #o664)
2017-06-28T20:00:08Z Posterdati: (= (logand mode #o664) #o664)
2017-06-28T20:00:41Z pjb: Posterdati: what you really want to do, is to test access(file,R_OK|W_OK)
2017-06-28T20:00:44Z Posterdati: is there a way to avoid iolib/syscalls:stat ?
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2017-06-28T20:01:00Z Posterdati: pjb: yes
2017-06-28T20:01:02Z pjb: ie. it doesn't matter if you can access the item thru the other, the group or the owned access rights.
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2017-06-28T20:02:01Z Posterdati: pjb: I nee the directory and files in it to be -rw-rw-r
2017-06-28T20:02:12Z pjb: No, you need to be able to access them
2017-06-28T20:02:19Z pjb: So use access(2).
2017-06-28T20:02:21Z Posterdati: pjb: and directory --x--x
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2017-06-28T20:02:32Z Posterdati: pjb: and directory --x--x--x
2017-06-28T20:02:42Z pjb: no, it could be --------x
2017-06-28T20:02:51Z pjb: Use access(2).
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2017-06-28T20:05:37Z Posterdati: pjb: nice! Thanks
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2017-06-28T20:10:27Z _death: you could also use inotify instead of polling, I guess
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2017-06-28T22:29:23Z mrottenkolber: When it says Mbps in an Intel whitepaper it means Megabits per second, right?
2017-06-28T22:29:45Z p_l: should be
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2017-06-28T22:31:22Z JuanDaugherty: B would be bytes
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2017-06-28T23:59:54Z dim: now working on having pgloader resilient to PostgreSQL operator interventions such as a restart... people have strange ideas about what is a bug sometimes, but at the same time, if we can handle it?
2017-06-29T00:00:09Z Xach: yeah!
2017-06-29T00:00:38Z dim: well apparently the create index threads don't want to be resilient, somehow
2017-06-29T00:03:35Z dim: the bug report reads: “When server restarts, or there is an issue with network connection, import fails with error:“
2017-06-29T00:04:09Z dim: (but then adds “but pgloader does not stop and is running infinitely” unfortunately, or it would have been great)
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2017-06-29T00:12:07Z dim: anyway not there yet and > 2am, have a good night/day people!
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2017-06-29T02:59:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-29T03:00:38Z vtomole: morning
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2017-06-29T03:03:32Z vtomole: beach: I think I understand your Sequence Functions paper. What should i do now? (with respect to SICL)
2017-06-29T03:05:18Z beach: There is a lot of obsolete code in the Sequences subdirrectory, so be careful what you believe.
2017-06-29T03:05:30Z beach: The current ASDF system is paper-sequence.asd
2017-06-29T03:06:14Z vtomole: Is this the most recent code? :https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Papers/Sequence-functions/Code/Find
2017-06-29T03:06:59Z beach: No, anything in Papers is just for the paper, not the final code.
2017-06-29T03:07:09Z beach: Look in the Sequences subdirectory.
2017-06-29T03:07:22Z beach: There is a system named paper-sequence.asd
2017-06-29T03:07:28Z beach: Look in that ASDF system
2017-06-29T03:07:44Z beach: The components you see in that system are current.
2017-06-29T03:07:59Z beach: Everything else is obsolete, but I am not willing to remove it yet.
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2017-06-29T03:09:28Z beach: As you can see, in Common, there is code for utilities, condition reporting and the sequence functions FIND, POSITION, and COUNT.
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2017-06-29T03:11:23Z beach: The first thing to do is to make sure you can build the paper-sequence.asd system.
2017-06-29T03:11:59Z beach: You will need to make sure ASDF does not fail on warnings, and you need to increase the inline limit of SBCL to 10000 or so.
2017-06-29T03:12:33Z vtomole: How long should it take? I have "CL-USER> (ql:quickload :paper-sequence) To load "paper-sequence":   Load 1 ASDF system:     paper-sequence ; Loading "paper-sequence" ........."
2017-06-29T03:12:51Z beach: I forget.  A few minutes.
2017-06-29T03:13:19Z vtomole: Why so long?
2017-06-29T03:14:13Z beach: As you can see from the paper, the body of the function (i.e. the LOOP) is duplicated many times, maybe thousands, so the code is very large for the compiler to process.
2017-06-29T03:14:45Z beach: Every time a macro does ,@BODY n times, the size is multiplied by n.
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2017-06-29T03:15:30Z vtomole: Yeah you mentioned that to me yesterday. I didn't register that it would be minutes, maybe 1 min max.
2017-06-29T03:16:25Z beach: But there are warnings that can't be silenced, and by default, ASDF fails when there are warnings, so you need to make sure that ASDF does not do that.
2017-06-29T03:16:30Z beach: Do you know how?
2017-06-29T03:16:46Z beach: (setf asdf:*compile-file-failure-behaviour* :ignore)
2017-06-29T03:17:27Z beach: Then you need to bump SBCL inline limit, or it just won't do all the inlining that is required for things to be fast.
2017-06-29T03:20:25Z beach: (setf sb-ext:*inline-expansion-limit* 10000)
2017-06-29T03:20:30Z vtomole: Ok
2017-06-29T03:20:37Z vtomole: sb-ext means?
2017-06-29T03:20:54Z beach: Short for sbcl-extensions.  It's a package name.
2017-06-29T03:23:27Z beach: Then, in Test there are tests from the Paul Dietz test suite for ANSI Common Lisp.  It would be good to make sure that the three functions implemented so far pass those tests.
2017-06-29T03:24:51Z beach: But the test system depends on an obsolete main system, so that has to change.
2017-06-29T03:25:51Z beach: Probably the best thing to do is to rename the obsolete ASDF systems so that they mention "-obsolete" or something, and then rename the paper-sequence.asd system to sicl-sequence-support to correspond to the test system.
2017-06-29T03:25:55Z beach: Can you handle that?
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2017-06-29T03:27:28Z vtomole: Yes. Still waiting on this.
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2017-06-29T03:30:04Z beach: vtomole: Check your *inferior-lisp* and make sure you didn't run out of heap.
2017-06-29T03:36:51Z vtomole: On a different REPL?
2017-06-29T03:37:21Z beach: Normally, if you are using SLIME, you have a buffer named *inferior-lisp*.  Check it please.
2017-06-29T03:37:26Z vtomole: Ah yes " *GC-PENDING* = true    *STOP-FOR-GC-PENDING* = false fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 13093(tid 140737256617728): Heap exhausted, game over.  Error opening /dev/tty: No such device or address Welcome to LDB, a low-level debugger for the Lisp runtime environment."
2017-06-29T03:37:51Z beach: So you need to increase your heap size.
2017-06-29T03:38:14Z beach: In your .emacs, do (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000") or something like that.
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2017-06-29T03:44:51Z beach: vtomole: Maybe the sequence functions require too much fiddling at this point.  If you want to, I can try to find something that requires less of that.  But then you have to give me time.
2017-06-29T03:51:10Z vtomole: Its fine i can manage with this
2017-06-29T03:51:24Z beach: Great!
2017-06-29T03:51:46Z vtomole: inferior -lisp-program? Why inferior?
2017-06-29T03:52:16Z beach: That's Emacs terminology.  Everything that is not Emacs Lisp is called "inferior".
2017-06-29T03:52:40Z vtomole: haha
2017-06-29T03:54:26Z vtomole: What is the standard heap size in sbcl?
2017-06-29T03:54:36Z beach: 1GB I think.
2017-06-29T03:54:46Z beach: So I bump it to 10GB.
2017-06-29T03:55:14Z beach: Maybe something smaller is enough for the sequence functions, but I need that much for the bootstrapping process.
2017-06-29T03:58:03Z vtomole: Okay i set it in .emacs, and started a new REPL, I get "Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 8144 bytes available, 8208 requested."
2017-06-29T03:59:57Z beach: That's very strange.
2017-06-29T04:02:52Z vtomole: Also ran it in the buffer for good measure.
2017-06-29T04:05:11Z beach: Maybe before you try the compilation, check the heap size.
2017-06-29T04:09:13Z vtomole: CL-USER> (room) Dynamic space usage is:   120,958,224 bytes. Read-only space usage is:      4,944 bytes. Static space usage is:         3,168 bytes. Control stack usage is:        8,888 bytes. Binding stack usage is:        1,072 bytes. Control and binding stack usage is for the current thread only. Garbage collection is currently enabled.  Breakdown for dynamic space:   31,682,096 bytes for 1,980,131 cons objects.   29,299,584 bytes for
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2017-06-29T04:14:23Z beach: vtomole: Try (sb-ext:dynamic-space-size).  ROOM just shows how much is in use.
2017-06-29T04:15:18Z vtomole: 1073741824, so still 1 GB
2017-06-29T04:15:46Z beach: Yeah, that's the problem.
2017-06-29T04:16:54Z beach: You need to figure out why it doesn't change the heap size.
2017-06-29T04:28:24Z beach: vtomole: Try doing it outside SLIME first.  Just start SBCL from a shell with the --dynamic-space-size that I showed you.
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2017-06-29T04:34:45Z vtomole_: Ran it in terminal and it was able to load
2017-06-29T04:35:00Z vtomole_: Froze my computer as i only have 8GB RAM
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2017-06-29T04:35:25Z beach: vtomole_: Can I contribute to some more RAM?
2017-06-29T04:35:48Z vtomole_: No just talking to myself
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2017-06-29T05:52:37Z beach: Murii: What kind of future projects do you have that need a scripting language?
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2017-06-29T05:54:51Z Murii: beach, Hello, I basically require what Lua has without metatables
2017-06-29T05:55:01Z Murii: and the possibility to map my functions made in C/C++ to it
2017-06-29T05:55:21Z Murii: I also do not need GC
2017-06-29T05:55:37Z beach: I understand.  I was wondering what kind of C or C++ projects you have planned for the future.  You don't have to answer if you don't want to of course.
2017-06-29T05:56:40Z Murii: Right now I have a game framework written in C which uses Lua. A second scripting language will be nice. I also want to make a paint program (something basic like paint)
2017-06-29T05:57:07Z Murii: and the idea of maintaining a scripting language sounds good to me
2017-06-29T05:59:37Z beach: For the paint program, I strongly recommend that you write it entirely in Common Lisp.
2017-06-29T06:01:06Z beach: It will give a much simpler architecture, and you won't have to deal with debugging combinations of different languages with different semantics.
2017-06-29T06:05:00Z beach: I take it that's not what you wanted to hear.  Oh, well.
2017-06-29T06:05:09Z Murii: yeah :)
2017-06-29T06:09:52Z beach: Well, it's to expected that we recommend Common Lisp, given the channel you are in.
2017-06-29T06:12:54Z beach: And, no, I don't think scripting is a good idea.  It's a horrible kludge that is necessary because the main language chosen for the implementation is a static language that still uses 1960s linker technology so that it makes it impossible to redefine things at run-time.
2017-06-29T06:13:50Z beach: The obvious fix is to choose a better language for the main code base.  It avoids lots of problems and makes it possible to do all kinds of scripting without any particular effort on the part of the developer.
2017-06-29T06:14:35Z Murii: If I were to choose Java or C# then there's no need to a scripting language
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2017-06-29T06:15:51Z beach: But you said C or C++, hence my comment.  But again, this is #lisp, so Common Lisp is recommended over those languages.  Common Lisp has a much more powerful object system than those languages do (unless they have introduced such things lately).
2017-06-29T06:16:45Z beach: I am curious, what is your reason for preferring C, C++, Java, or C# over Common Lisp?
2017-06-29T06:16:47Z axion: Indeed, and no other languages apart from Smalltalk implemented multiple inheritance correctly, if at all.
2017-06-29T06:17:09Z beach: Not to mention multiple dispatch.
2017-06-29T06:17:23Z axion: C# for example has neither
2017-06-29T06:18:43Z beach: Murii: The reason I am asking is, like I hinted before, that most of the time when people have such preferences, it's because of ignorance about Common Lisp.  So I wanted to see whether that's the case or not.
2017-06-29T06:19:09Z Zhivago: You can run C or C++ interpreters if you feel sufficiently motivated.
2017-06-29T06:19:49Z beach: Murii: If you just happen to prefer any of those languages over Common Lisp, then that's fine of course, but it would be sad if you made the wrong choice for reasons of ignorance.  You could pay a pretty hefty price for that in terms of productivity and/or application performance.
2017-06-29T06:19:49Z Zhivago: Not that I'm recommending the approach -- just to point out that there's nothing particularly special here.
2017-06-29T06:21:56Z axion: Murii: What beach said. I encourage you to actually see why this language family is still kicking today, which by the way is even older than C, a language that has very little reason to be used for large projects such as the aforementioned game frameworks you are working on. I also invite you to join our #lispgames channel for more information regarding this.
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2017-06-29T06:33:43Z beach: axion: Oh, well.  We tried. :)
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2017-06-29T06:36:58Z Murii: idk, I have to think about it
2017-06-29T06:37:32Z beach: Again, if you need more information about Common Lisp to make up your mind, don't hesitate to ask.
2017-06-29T06:37:49Z beach: For example, some people think it is "interpreted" and therefore slow.
2017-06-29T06:38:04Z beach: Some others think it requires "functional programming".
2017-06-29T06:38:38Z beach: Yet others think that "it has lists as its only data structure".
2017-06-29T06:38:41Z beach: etc, etc.
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2017-06-29T06:54:09Z Murii: python is interpreted
2017-06-29T06:55:00Z beach: Murii: Python is a bit special.  For one thing, there is confusion about what is the language and what is the programming system.  Languages are neither interpreted nor compiled, because they can be implemented either way.
2017-06-29T06:55:18Z beach: Murii: Common Lisp, on the other hand, is just a language.
2017-06-29T06:55:35Z beach: Murii: It has several implementations, and most of the modern ones compile to native code.
2017-06-29T06:56:13Z beach: Murii: The other possible confusion is that when some people hear "compiled", they think of "batch", i.e. an object file must be generated and then the application has to be linked.
2017-06-29T06:56:50Z beach: Murii: But most modern Common Lisp implementation compile on the fly in the interactive environment, which is what some people confuse with "interpreted".
2017-06-29T06:57:10Z pjb: Murii: there are python compilers.
2017-06-29T06:57:36Z beach: Murii: As a result, a good Common Lisp implementation generates code that is comparable in speed to that of traditional batch languages.
2017-06-29T06:58:43Z antoszka: Another confusion might arise with “batch languages” as some think they'd be interpreted glue languages like sh/bash/awk/tcl et caetera :)
2017-06-29T06:58:46Z beach: Murii: And that is exactly why I asked.  Because some people choose (say) C++ because they think a typical C++ compiler generates MUCH faster code than a typical Common Lisp compiler.  That just isn't the case.
2017-06-29T07:00:31Z Murii: speed is not my problem
2017-06-29T07:00:48Z beach: So what *is* your problem.  You haven't told us.
2017-06-29T07:00:48Z Murii: only when making games (but they are 2D so it should be fine) I worry a bit
2017-06-29T07:01:15Z beach: Well, I know very little about games, which is why I was referring to the paint program you mentioned.
2017-06-29T07:01:27Z Murii: This idea of making a language is stuck in my head and I can't let it go because then I'll feel bad
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2017-06-29T07:02:28Z beach: That's fine.  But it's also orthogonal to the choice of language for the paint application.
2017-06-29T07:02:37Z axion: I run the lispgames community. I encourage you to ask your questions in the channel I mentioned previously.
2017-06-29T07:03:35Z Murii: axion, I'm not sure exactly what to ask. I mean I know lisp is used for games(Naughty Dog use it)
2017-06-29T07:03:45Z axion: We have some very elaborate game libraries, for both 2D on the CPU and 3D games on the GPU.
2017-06-29T07:03:51Z Murii: :O
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2017-06-29T07:04:02Z axion: and some of the most knowledgable programmers I have ever known hang out in there
2017-06-29T07:04:31Z Murii: what exactly is Scheme?
2017-06-29T07:04:38Z axion: A dialect of Lisp
2017-06-29T07:04:47Z beach: Murii: A programming language.
2017-06-29T07:04:48Z Murii: easier than Common Lisp?
2017-06-29T07:04:54Z axion: This channel is regarding the Common Lisp dialect
2017-06-29T07:04:55Z beach: Define "easy".
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2017-06-29T07:05:15Z Murii: with less keywords and features
2017-06-29T07:05:20Z pjb: Ask in #scheme for authoritative opinion about scheme ;-)
2017-06-29T07:05:22Z Murii: I guess the word is minimalist
2017-06-29T07:05:25Z axion: Murii: It's a simpler language, though not necessarily easier. Some argue it's focus is on acamedic use rather than practical.
2017-06-29T07:05:33Z Murii: I see
2017-06-29T07:06:05Z beach: Murii: Yes, but that's usually the wrong thing to aim for.  Obviously, a language with fewer features is also one that it harder to get things done with, at least in general.
2017-06-29T07:06:15Z Murii: true
2017-06-29T07:07:35Z beach: Murii: I used to use Scheme rather than Common Lisp, but I got real tired of having to invent my own object system and other crucial features for each application I needed.
2017-06-29T07:08:12Z beach: Murii: Furthermore, what I invented was not widely used (of course), nor portable to other Scheme implementations.  I converted to Common Lisp and never looked back.
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2017-06-29T07:08:59Z Murii: Hm,in that case I'll have to look over the differences between them two
2017-06-29T07:09:22Z beach: They are huge.
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2017-06-29T07:09:33Z axion: Common Lisp is a real ANSI standard. Writing code using it means that your code will work decades from now, as has code written decades ago still does.
2017-06-29T07:10:16Z Murii: with scheme is different?
2017-06-29T07:10:38Z axion: Much
2017-06-29T07:11:08Z pjb: Actually, you can run in CL code written in the 60s!  http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2017-06-29T07:11:56Z pjb: Not that those old programs be that fine in terms of style and structure, usually, but at least you can run them when needed.
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2017-06-29T07:13:32Z beach: That is truly impressive.
2017-06-29T07:15:25Z loke: pjb: To be fair, that wasn't CL code from the 60's. It's Lisp code from the 60's that CL can run.
2017-06-29T07:15:42Z beach: That's what he said.
2017-06-29T07:15:56Z beach: But he was using French word order, so it was hard to see. :)
2017-06-29T07:15:56Z loke: Good
2017-06-29T07:16:07Z pjb: No, formally I said CL code written in the 60s, but I meant lisp code written in the 60s.
2017-06-29T07:16:08Z loke: In my mind, the "in" disappeared.
2017-06-29T07:16:24Z pjb: Oh, right, run in CL, code written in the 60s.
2017-06-29T07:16:34Z beach: pjb: Right, "in".
2017-06-29T07:16:49Z pjb: I will have to revise English syntax…
2017-06-29T07:16:57Z beach: Nah, you're fine.
2017-06-29T07:19:19Z loke: pjb: Is that LISP 1.5 or LISP 1 code?
2017-06-29T07:19:43Z pjb: 1.5 apparently (from this user manual).
2017-06-29T07:20:22Z pjb: Well, it's compatible; originally LISP 1, but also ran on LISP 1.5.
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2017-06-29T07:21:19Z loke: I always found old lisp code to be written in a seriously bizarre way. However, once I start thinking of each line being a card, it makes more sense.
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2017-06-29T07:23:53Z splittist: And when the next generation of programmers move on from a two-dimensional field of characters they'll wonder why we obsessed over indentation.
2017-06-29T07:24:21Z loke: splittist: Speaking of that, did you see the 2D matrix reader for Scheme?
2017-06-29T07:24:45Z splittist: loke: no, sorry.
2017-06-29T07:25:16Z loke: https://docs.racket-lang.org/2d/index.html
2017-06-29T07:25:37Z loke: Someone (not me) needs to implement this reader in CL :-)
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2017-06-29T07:28:14Z pillton: ( 1 2 3 \\ 4 5 6 ) is pretty good.
2017-06-29T07:29:13Z pillton: This is shamelessly stolen from LaTeX.
2017-06-29T07:29:32Z loke: Does Racket require a #something to initiate a custom reader? In CL, one could declare ╔ as a dispatching macro character, and thus avoid that.
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2017-06-29T07:30:10Z pillton: I haven't used those characters since the Commodore 64.
2017-06-29T07:30:18Z pillton: Ahh
2017-06-29T07:30:25Z splittist: loke: interesting. Makes me wonder about a #2dMethods table...
2017-06-29T07:30:37Z loke: pillton: How do you mean it's stolen from LaTeX?
2017-06-29T07:31:03Z pillton: loke: The delimiter I used above.
2017-06-29T07:31:24Z loke: Ah
2017-06-29T07:31:47Z loke: splittist: Yeah, that soyunds pretty neat. I could use that.
2017-06-29T07:32:28Z loke: For this one in particlar: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/db.lisp#L47
2017-06-29T07:33:48Z antoszka: https://github.com/shaunlebron/history-of-lisp-editing ← some interesting stuff, especially the PILOT paper from 1966 ;)
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2017-06-29T07:53:13Z pjb: loke: once I wrote a CL macro to do that.
2017-06-29T07:53:29Z pjb: Not with the ASCII art, but with the cross-product of conditions.
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2017-06-29T07:54:49Z axion: To be fair, it's not ASCII art :)
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2017-06-29T07:59:27Z pjb: They enforce alignment of the line characters…
2017-06-29T08:00:27Z pjb: The second example is even more clearly ascii-art, with the zig-zagging lines.
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2017-06-29T08:00:49Z axion: Except they are not in the ASCII set, nor extended/latin-1 sets
2017-06-29T08:00:55Z pjb: All in all, a very nice reader macro.
2017-06-29T08:01:04Z pjb: Oh right :-)
2017-06-29T08:01:11Z pjb: unicode-art.
2017-06-29T08:01:14Z axion: :)
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2017-06-29T08:01:50Z loke: Unicart!
2017-06-29T08:02:00Z loke copyrights the word
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2017-06-29T08:17:27Z flip214: loke: ™, perhaps.
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2017-06-29T08:47:34Z beach: Since SICL has first-class global environments, it would be possible to dissociate packages from their names and make the names part of the environment instead of being intrinsic to the packages themselves.  Give me some advantages and disadvantages of this idea, please.
2017-06-29T08:48:28Z beach: One advantage: May avoid package name conflicts in some cases.
2017-06-29T08:49:38Z beach: Another possible idea is to allow for several different packages with the same name to co-exist, provided there is only one package with a particular name in a given first-class global environment.
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2017-06-29T08:52:07Z beach: Dissociating package names would allow per-environment package nicknames.  That way, one could have package names like com.informatimago.whatever and in an environment where such a package is referred to by some code, it could have a nickname specific to that environment.
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2017-06-29T08:57:43Z flip214: beach: a possible disadvantage is recompilation and not-sharing things, so increased memory/cpu usage
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2017-06-29T08:58:38Z beach: That should not need to happen, but there might be a risk for it, yes.
2017-06-29T08:59:02Z flip214: advantage might be to have _different_ versions of libraries in core...
2017-06-29T08:59:19Z flip214: if system A needs X=1.0, but B needs X=2.0
2017-06-29T08:59:25Z ludston: flip214: But this is a discussion about syntax, not RAM
2017-06-29T08:59:43Z p_l: it's definitely an advantage, especially if it provides an API and way to implement separate environment where you *do* want separation of code
2017-06-29T08:59:50Z phoe: ludston: "Give me some advantages and disadvantages of this idea, please."
2017-06-29T08:59:54Z beach: flip214: Yes, definitely.
2017-06-29T08:59:57Z phoe: I see no syntax mentioned here
2017-06-29T09:00:04Z flip214: but this might make code/data sharing harder again...
2017-06-29T09:00:14Z p_l: I'd love to have 2+ environments in which I have code in supposedly same package but modified
2017-06-29T09:00:32Z flip214: beach: so, you'd basically have "chroots inside a lisp process", which sounds like a nice idea to me...
2017-06-29T09:00:33Z p_l: the reason is that I'd like to have one environment manipulate (without contaminating itself) the other
2017-06-29T09:00:48Z phoe: flip214: yes, that's the whole point
2017-06-29T09:00:58Z beach: p_l: Bike is planning to implement first-class global environments in Clasp so that he can compile the compiler, so I guess that's one example of what you are saying.
2017-06-29T09:01:08Z flip214: if that could be combined with cgroups (to limit CPU use -- memory use is a different beast because of the shared(?) heap), it would be awesome
2017-06-29T09:01:09Z p_l: beach: exactly that
2017-06-29T09:01:10Z ludston: phoe: I mean, having nicknames for packages is a change to syntax/intepretation, and no a change to how CL manages the packages
2017-06-29T09:01:12Z jackdaniel: p_l: sounds appealing, especially for multi-user environment
2017-06-29T09:01:18Z jackdaniel: and experiments
2017-06-29T09:01:21Z phoe: ludston: actually, no
2017-06-29T09:01:32Z ludston: phoe: Help me understand
2017-06-29T09:01:52Z phoe: dissociating packages from package names is an internal change, in how the implementation handles and treats names
2017-06-29T09:02:05Z phoe: so it's actually less about syntax and more about how to implement this
2017-06-29T09:02:12Z flip214: beach: that might want/need another feature... recompiling the compiler itself in a new environment, and if all tests run okay, promote that to be the new one being used "system" wide
2017-06-29T09:02:23Z flip214: that should be possible then, too
2017-06-29T09:02:31Z ludston: phoe: I get it
2017-06-29T09:02:32Z flip214: "should" as in "technically"
2017-06-29T09:02:39Z phoe: flip214: so basically, atomic substitution of whole packages
2017-06-29T09:02:48Z flip214: phoe: that might not be enough.
2017-06-29T09:02:48Z phoe: sounds cool
2017-06-29T09:03:05Z flip214: atomic replacemant of global environments, or at least some XCHG
2017-06-29T09:03:07Z phoe: I know, someone can trap parts of code from the old package as variables, closures and so on
2017-06-29T09:03:24Z beach: flip214: Sure.
2017-06-29T09:05:20Z phoe: flip214: well, you can have a constraint then
2017-06-29T09:05:35Z phoe: if you want your code to be modular, use symbols instead of code objects
2017-06-29T09:05:43Z phoe: so 'foo:bar instead of #'foo:bar
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2017-06-29T09:06:13Z phoe: and for vars, 'foo:bar with #'symbol-value instead of foo:bar
2017-06-29T09:06:45Z beach: phoe: Funny you should mention that.  Before going to bed, nyef had a long description about that difference in #clim.
2017-06-29T09:07:04Z phoe: beach: oh, can you summarize it for me?
2017-06-29T09:07:16Z phoe: oh wait
2017-06-29T09:07:19Z phoe: I can see it in my logs.
2017-06-29T09:07:27Z phoe: I will read up on it later.
2017-06-29T09:07:29Z beach: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/clim?from=1498669879
2017-06-29T09:07:31Z flip214: so I imagine a tree of environments... a global one, a per-user one (using swank), and a subservient one where the compiler is being compiled...
2017-06-29T09:07:45Z phoe: flip214: yes, sure
2017-06-29T09:07:47Z beach: flip214: That's very close to my thinking.
2017-06-29T09:08:04Z flip214: and at some point the 3rd level one being "promoted" to "top-level"
2017-06-29T09:08:29Z flip214: perhaps it shouldn't be a tree, but some kind of graph (even allowing for cycles?)
2017-06-29T09:08:49Z flip214: and an environment may specify "its" parent/master environment to use for compilation?
2017-06-29T09:09:04Z beach: All very good ideas.
2017-06-29T09:09:19Z flip214: sounds like redrum might be a good idea, to reduce binary size in the image
2017-06-29T09:09:37Z flip214: beach: "but I already thought of all that", right?  ;)
2017-06-29T09:10:04Z beach: Notice, though, that the compiler has very few entry points.  One could very well leave the environments alone and just import new entry points to the current environment.
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2017-06-29T09:10:42Z beach: flip214: It is normal that I have been thinking of more things.  I have had more time for it, since I invented first-class global environments in this form.
2017-06-29T09:10:45Z flip214: in CL, yes. in SB-*, there are some more -- and these might need to be swapped one-by-one, for the compiler developers.
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2017-06-29T09:10:57Z flip214: beach: yeah, I know and understand.
2017-06-29T09:11:18Z flip214: I also fully appreciate the idea of having others brainstorm as well - there might be another good idea!
2017-06-29T09:11:27Z beach: But I still need feedback, because it is easy to get something like this horribly wrong by forgetting some major issue.
2017-06-29T09:11:35Z beach: Right.
2017-06-29T09:11:56Z flip214: (see also "Odysseus of Ithaca", in "A Perfect Vacuum"  ;)
2017-06-29T09:12:42Z flip214: well, I'm thinking about whether it might be good or bad to have environments "separate" themselves, ie. break all links to other existing envs
2017-06-29T09:14:13Z beach: Worth contemplating.
2017-06-29T09:14:52Z flip214: I've got something nagging me about these multiple environment idea... but I can't put my finger on it yet.
2017-06-29T09:15:27Z flip214: how about being able to dump a single environment as a new image, or some hierarchy of envs? the whole system?
2017-06-29T09:15:34Z beach: I am thinking that things can go wrong in too many ways if first-class global environments are used with moderation.
2017-06-29T09:15:51Z flip214: resp. loading an image as a new environment?
2017-06-29T09:16:09Z flip214: excuse me? is your sentence missing a negation somewhere?
2017-06-29T09:16:10Z beach: But, yes, if one starts allowing arbitrary graphs and arbitrary side effects to environments, then things could very well get complicated.
2017-06-29T09:16:20Z beach: heh, can not
2017-06-29T09:16:34Z flip214: oh, okay.
2017-06-29T09:16:34Z beach: I am thinking that things can NOT go wrong in too many ways if first-class global environments are used with moderation.
2017-06-29T09:16:40Z flip214: yeah, thanks ;)
2017-06-29T09:16:55Z phoe: beach: moderation is the basis of all good
2017-06-29T09:17:03Z beach: Right.
2017-06-29T09:17:09Z phoe: like, everything's poisonous when taken to the extreme
2017-06-29T09:17:09Z splittist: phoe: how Aristotelian
2017-06-29T09:17:23Z phoe: splittist: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Parenthesis_Hell
2017-06-29T09:17:25Z splittist: spaghetti environments!
2017-06-29T09:17:38Z flip214: perhaps a FASL should then have some UUID, and if another env loads that too the image in memory can just reference all the read-only data from the previous load
2017-06-29T09:17:58Z phoe: ^
2017-06-29T09:17:59Z beach: So I am king of thinking of starting out with a small list of features and a small number of environments.  Time will tell what additional features might be desired.
2017-06-29T09:18:51Z beach: flip214: In fact I do something like that in the current bootstrapping process, but what I do is simpler, because the read-only stuff never leaves meo
2017-06-29T09:18:54Z beach: memory.
2017-06-29T09:19:04Z beach: So, it is not in a FASL.
2017-06-29T09:19:42Z flip214: oh, and if multiple environments ask for eg. HUNCHENTOOT, ain't that loaded from a FAL?
2017-06-29T09:19:46Z flip214: *FASL
2017-06-29T09:20:00Z beach: flip214: That feature not only allows me to share all the complicated stuff like code of functions, but it also makes things much faster.
2017-06-29T09:20:37Z flip214: less code == more space in the cpu-caches, right ;)
2017-06-29T09:20:45Z beach: Right.
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2017-06-29T09:21:45Z flip214: replacing unix pipes with cross-environment queues....
2017-06-29T09:23:27Z beach: Thanks for all the ideas.  Keep them coming.  This is good.
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2017-06-29T09:24:14Z beach: So, it might very well be that Clasp becomes the first really usable Common Lisp implementation with SICL first-class global environments. :)
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2017-06-29T09:25:38Z beach is thinking that he really needs to hurry up and finish the CST library, so that he can then hurry up and finish Second Climacs, so that he can then, again, work on SICL bootstrapping. 
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2017-06-29T09:28:44Z flip214: brainstorming further on, I associate moving data from one env to another via S-expressions as a kind of replacement for the generic netlink layer and similar stuff...
2017-06-29T09:29:06Z flip214: perhaps the "kernel" in SICL is just some priviledged env that has a few IO queues?
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2017-06-29T09:30:55Z beach: flip214: Some of these sophisticated ideas would have to be experimented with once I have a simple system up and running.  It sounds like it belongs more on the OS level, so perhaps related to the LispOS that I have planned as one use for SICL.
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2017-06-29T09:31:17Z flip214: and one of them allows to atomically xchg that env with another one == atomic replacement of the running kernel
2017-06-29T09:33:07Z beach: What meaning do you put into the word "kernel"?  I am asking, because I avoid it in my LispOS specification, simply because it gives associations to a big blob of monolithic code, glued together by a 1960s-style linker.
2017-06-29T09:33:30Z flip214: well, this word might have been a bad idea here.
2017-06-29T09:33:43Z beach: "core system" then?
2017-06-29T09:33:46Z beach: something like that?
2017-06-29T09:33:56Z flip214: I was thinking about the lowest-level support code that talks to the "real" kernel (linux, hurd, bsd, ...)
2017-06-29T09:34:07Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-06-29T09:34:11Z flip214: ie. that translates OPEN to a syscall.
2017-06-29T09:34:19Z beach: Got it.
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2017-06-29T09:35:58Z flip214: another idea: having an active env, "export" (really fork?) that into a separately running process; this might incur cleanups in both processes, then a big GC
2017-06-29T09:36:16Z phoe: flip214: so you basically fork the whole process
2017-06-29T09:36:30Z flip214: not sure what to do with the currently associated threads, though
2017-06-29T09:36:36Z phoe: then delete different parts of everything in the two processes
2017-06-29T09:36:41Z flip214: phoe: as first step, yes. then remove all unused envs, do GC
2017-06-29T09:36:48Z phoe: yes
2017-06-29T09:36:50Z beach: phoe: I am totally against processes. :)
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2017-06-29T09:37:47Z flip214: beach: the thing is, I believe that processes _should_ be supported, because this is the major aggregation item for too many things right now.
2017-06-29T09:37:49Z beach: ... at least "processes" as "thingy with a private address space".
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2017-06-29T09:37:56Z flip214: memory limits, CPU limits, network/block IO limits, etc.
2017-06-29T09:38:20Z beach: Yeah, it's the separate address space that I think is a bad idea.
2017-06-29T09:38:38Z flip214: and being able to limit eg. "that hunchentoot instance in that env" would be a very nice feature
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2017-06-29T09:39:05Z beach: I totally agree.  But within the same address space.
2017-06-29T09:39:15Z ludston: beach: All shared libs are read only then?
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2017-06-29T09:39:50Z beach: ludston: I am not sure what a shared library is in the context of a running Common Lisp system, other than a bunch of functions and data in memory.
2017-06-29T09:40:49Z flip214: beach: "same address space" means "one bug crashes all", sadly
2017-06-29T09:41:13Z beach: Why is that?
2017-06-29T09:41:21Z ludston: beach: A potential negative branch is a "naughty" application playing with the internals of another lib which could corrupt everything else
2017-06-29T09:41:28Z flip214: and I'm not sure how easy it is to have memory limits, too -- see also https://sysdig.com/blog/container-isolation-gone-wrong/ for a similar linux-kernel problem
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2017-06-29T09:42:40Z beach: ludston: Oh, I should have warned you.  I am incapable of doing my thinking relative to dumb systems like Unix derivatives.  I am thinking about safe systems like Common Lisp.
2017-06-29T09:42:42Z flip214: beach: just as an idea -- how about having multiple heaps, and then share _one_ heap between multiple processes if they need to talk to each other? yeah, lots of caveats.
2017-06-29T09:42:56Z flip214: beach: even on safe systems bugs happen.
2017-06-29T09:43:14Z beach: flip214: Sure, and the Unix kernel can have bugs to.  Then it will crash.
2017-06-29T09:43:19Z beach: I see no difference.
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2017-06-29T09:43:42Z flip214: and especially the compiler writers need to produce low-level "data" == code - and a bug in code-generation will kill the whole "unix process"
2017-06-29T09:44:16Z beach: Just like the Unix kernel will be buggy of created by a buggy GCC.
2017-06-29T09:44:31Z beach: The solution to that problem is to fix the compiler.
2017-06-29T09:44:46Z beach: Not to dumb down the entire system the way we currently do.
2017-06-29T09:45:11Z flip214: beach: while I understand your wish about a single memory space, and see the advantages, I'm concerned about the implications. I've seen too many behemoths that tried to be the one-right-thing,
2017-06-29T09:45:29Z flip214: but all that I saw failed because of their complexity and the bugs.
2017-06-29T09:45:51Z beach: I'll take that into consideration.
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2017-06-29T09:47:00Z beach: Anyway, lunchtime.  I'll read the logs in case the discussion continues.
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2017-06-29T10:26:28Z flip214: "Mahlzeit"
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2017-06-29T10:34:33Z flip214: beach: am I right that the only change needed for the GC would be to have more root objects, ie. every environment (additionally to the already used roots, like registers)?
2017-06-29T10:35:14Z flip214: sounds more and more like a-little-bit-bigger-than local-nicknames to me
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2017-06-29T11:04:00Z axion: Is there a predicate for a generic sequence?
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2017-06-29T11:05:53Z flip214: axion: (typep X 'sequence)?  http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm
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2017-06-29T11:07:29Z axion: Thanks. Are there any gotchas to walking a tree to make a deep copy for _only_ sequences, leaving everything else as identity?
2017-06-29T11:08:37Z flip214: (copy-tree X) ?
2017-06-29T11:08:49Z flip214: hmm, not sure whether that copies arrays, though
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2017-06-29T11:09:06Z flip214: is it a well-formed tree, or can it have cycles?
2017-06-29T11:09:08Z ARg032: hello
2017-06-29T11:09:35Z ARg032: does anyone know how to run lisp file on windows?
2017-06-29T11:09:42Z ARg032: with ccl
2017-06-29T11:10:29Z ARg032: or is this wrong channel for that
2017-06-29T11:12:08Z ARg032: !help
2017-06-29T11:12:41Z axion: flip214: I would need this to be NIL, hence the deep copy: (let* ((a (vector 1 2 3)) (b `(,a))) (eq a (car (copy-tree b))))
2017-06-29T11:13:08Z axion: There will not be any cycles
2017-06-29T11:13:35Z axion: I am only interested in that all sequences are NIL to each other, but other objects retaining identity
2017-06-29T11:15:03Z flip214: hmmm, how about element-types of vectors? fill-pointers? do these need to be copied, too?
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2017-06-29T11:15:40Z axion: There will never be fill pointers in this usage, but element-types, absolutely so
2017-06-29T11:17:29Z phoe: ARg032: https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter2.5.html
2017-06-29T11:17:34Z phoe: so it would be:
2017-06-29T11:17:51Z phoe: ccl -l foo\bar\baz.lisp
2017-06-29T11:17:54Z phoe: on Windows
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2017-06-29T11:24:06Z ARg032: phoe, thank you for answer. I found this too, but there's only two exe files in ccl directory I downloaded, wx86cl.exe, and wx86cl64.exe and if I try to run this command it does nothing
2017-06-29T11:24:13Z ARg032: as I understand it loads the file
2017-06-29T11:24:25Z ARg032: so I need to type something more to execute it?
2017-06-29T11:24:43Z axion: flip214: Basically what I need is ELisp's copy-tree. Note, the vecp keyword argument: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Building-Lists.html
2017-06-29T11:24:50Z flip214: axion: there was some issue with copying an array a few days ago...
2017-06-29T11:25:03Z flip214: (array-element-type X) not being useable, or something like that
2017-06-29T11:25:37Z flip214: or was it just a vector with fill-pointer, and then confusion about the length when copying? this wouldn't apply to your usecase.
2017-06-29T11:26:12Z axion: Interesting, but that sounds like it's missing some context else I would have encountered it
2017-06-29T11:26:42Z axion: However, maybe I should look in Emacs source, however I thought maybe someone has done it before.
2017-06-29T11:26:45Z flip214: was a week ago or so... sadly I can't remember the details.
2017-06-29T11:32:25Z ARg032: what is lisp equivalent of "gcc hello.c -o hello1" if I have "hello.lisp" for example?
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2017-06-29T11:33:22Z axion: That depends on the implementation and the source file.
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2017-06-29T11:33:50Z ARg032: if I have ccl and source is just print hello world text
2017-06-29T11:35:18Z ARg032: (DEFUN HELLO ()   "HELLO WORLD" )
2017-06-29T11:35:25Z phoe: ARg032: oh
2017-06-29T11:35:32Z phoe: one of them is 32-bit CCL and the other is 64-bit CCL
2017-06-29T11:35:36Z phoe: run the one you want
2017-06-29T11:35:48Z ARg032: and what I want to do is don't run any interpreter, just execute bat file or something to run the probram
2017-06-29T11:35:51Z ARg032: program*
2017-06-29T11:35:54Z phoe: so: wx86cl64 -l foo.lisp
2017-06-29T11:36:03Z phoe: ARg032: what do you mean, execute bat file or something to run the program?
2017-06-29T11:36:17Z phoe: make a single-line /bat file that contains, "wx86cl64 -l program.lisp"
2017-06-29T11:36:22Z phoe: .bat*
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2017-06-29T11:38:45Z ARg032: when I do that, it just opens the interpreter and waits for commands
2017-06-29T11:38:46Z axion: If anyone could help with the 'generic sequence deep copier' it'd be appreciated.
2017-06-29T11:39:53Z ARg032: I was expecting something like executing C program where you write code, then the program has some entry point like main, and executes everything from there, or is it not how lisp works at all
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2017-06-29T11:40:59Z axion: It is nothing like that or C.
2017-06-29T11:41:15Z ARg032: right now I must also write (hello) for it to execute
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2017-06-29T11:45:02Z ARg032: so how do you run lisp programs?
2017-06-29T11:47:08Z Bike: usually interactively
2017-06-29T11:47:48Z Bike: (defun hello () "Hello World") and then (hello)
2017-06-29T11:47:49Z jackdaniel: ARg032: development goes through interactive use, when you dump binary you may specify the entry point
2017-06-29T11:48:23Z ARg032: so you actually manually write function that you call after loading, ok
2017-06-29T11:48:35Z Bike: or put it in a file and load it
2017-06-29T11:48:38Z Bike: plenty of options
2017-06-29T11:49:56Z ARg032: so if I write something in notepad, save it, I have to launch ccl each time and then load that file and then write the entry function to see result?
2017-06-29T11:50:33Z Bike: usually you'd just keep ccl running.
2017-06-29T11:50:41Z Bike: and when you're done you can dump an executable to actually deploy.
2017-06-29T11:50:49Z ARg032: maybe there's a way to always execute same function every time file is loaded
2017-06-29T11:51:23Z Bike: when a file is loaded it executes all the code in the file. if your file is (defun hello () (print "Hello world")) (hello) it will print "Hello world"
2017-06-29T11:51:23Z ARg032: hmm...
2017-06-29T11:51:30Z Bike: perhaps the lack of printing threw you.
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2017-06-29T11:53:12Z Bike: axion: (defun ct (x) (typecase x (cons (cons (ct (car x)) (ct (cdr x)))) (vector (map-into (make-array (array-dimensions x)) #'ct x)) (t x)))? or do you need other properties of the array
2017-06-29T11:53:31Z Bike: the element type, probably
2017-06-29T11:54:02Z axion: For this case, I need to copy an arbitrarily nested list containing other lists and different simple-arrays
2017-06-29T11:54:25Z Bike: this should do that
2017-06-29T11:54:32Z axion: well other objects too, but they should be identity'd
2017-06-29T11:54:36Z ARg032: Bike: yes, thank you, that was it
2017-06-29T11:55:06Z ARg032: but now it still instead of exiting waits for more commands after loading
2017-06-29T11:55:23Z Bike: yeah. that's usual.
2017-06-29T11:55:34Z axion: particularly (simple-array single-float (*))
2017-06-29T11:55:38Z dim: in (handler-case ... ((or a b c d) (e) ...)), I am using the same or list in seveal places, how can I declare it once?
2017-06-29T11:55:51Z Bike: axion: put in :element-type (array-element-type x) then
2017-06-29T11:55:53Z Bike: dim: deftype
2017-06-29T11:55:55Z dim: I would guess deftype or something like this?
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2017-06-29T11:56:10Z axion: Bike: Thanks, I'll play around with that
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2017-06-29T11:56:45Z Bike: ARg032: if you really really want to use it in batch, ccl apparently has a -b command line option you can use https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter2.5.html#Command-Line-Options
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2017-06-29T11:59:58Z ARg032: Bike: that sounds exactly what I wanted
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2017-06-29T12:01:39Z ARg032: doesn't work though..
2017-06-29T12:01:42Z axion: Bike: That is great. Thank you.
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2017-06-29T12:07:37Z ARg032: is there a good way to write lisp without emacs or some other integrated ide, or emacs/lispworks like ide is basically a requirement to start developing with lisp?
2017-06-29T12:12:28Z mrottenkolber: ARg032: you can use pretty much any editor, but Lisp is made with interactive use in mind so using an interactive dev env like SLIME makes sense
2017-06-29T12:18:18Z Devon: I know professional Lispers who don't use Emacs but I can't imagine how they don't go mad.
2017-06-29T12:18:20Z Bike: ARg032: doesn't work how?
2017-06-29T12:18:39Z ARg032: Bike: it stays in interactive mode
2017-06-29T12:18:41Z Bike: it reads from standard input rather than taking filenames on the command line, it looks like
2017-06-29T12:19:06Z Bike: so maybe something like cat hello.lisp | ccl -b
2017-06-29T12:19:42Z ARg032: how would that be on windows
2017-06-29T12:20:15Z Bike: hell if i know. how do you pipe things on windows?
2017-06-29T12:20:38Z Bike: that can't be an uncommon task in batch files.
2017-06-29T12:20:42Z ARg032: I never do, but I'll google
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2017-06-29T12:34:21Z p_l: Bike: like this: type hello.lisp | ccl.exe -b
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2017-06-29T13:01:52Z beach: flip214: Presumably, the system has some (perhaps inaccessible) object containing references to all environments, so the influence on the GC is minimal.
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2017-06-29T13:34:26Z impaktor: In emacs+slime, it shows some of my function calls with font-lock-warning-face. I suspect it's some lint-checker, but how do I see what it is it is it's actually complaining about?
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2017-06-29T13:35:15Z Xach: impaktor: do they start with (check... ?
2017-06-29T13:35:41Z impaktor: Xach: yes!
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2017-06-29T13:35:55Z Xach: anyway, if it is not after compilation, it is probably some font-lock heuristic and not anything especially intelligent
2017-06-29T13:36:10Z impaktor: Is "check-" reserved for some other thing?
2017-06-29T13:36:11Z impaktor: OK.
2017-06-29T13:36:12Z Xach: impaktor: traditionally, check-... functions may signal an error instead of returning.
2017-06-29T13:36:24Z Xach: it is a reminder, but not a guarantee, of a kind of behavior
2017-06-29T13:36:57Z Bike: definitely not a reprimand to you. names starting with check- are perfectly fine.
2017-06-29T13:37:16Z impaktor: Well, renamed it now, and that helped.
2017-06-29T13:37:21Z impaktor: *fixed it.
2017-06-29T13:37:35Z Xach: yeah, it's more of a reminder of possible control flow.
2017-06-29T13:38:16Z Bike: it highlights calls to error, warn, check-type, etc in the same way. just to highlight that when you're reading
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2017-06-29T16:54:41Z Bike: there are archives of X3J13 issues that aren't in the clhs, right? anyone have one of those handy?
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2017-06-29T17:13:42Z jasom: Bike: this? http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/conference/iwoleas88/Masinter-CommonLispCleanup.pdf
2017-06-29T17:15:31Z Bike: no, i remember seeing issues that resemble the ones in the CLHS
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2017-06-29T17:16:33Z Bike: sort of like how there's http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html
2017-06-29T17:16:53Z Bike: let's see if there's more here, actually
2017-06-29T17:17:08Z Bike: it links to PARC's ftp server. right-o
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2017-06-29T17:18:53Z Bike: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/defsystem.html huh
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2017-06-29T18:01:48Z hackmk: Heyy ... Was wondering if anyone can help me with an issue I'm having with cl-async & sbcl
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2017-06-29T18:03:29Z hackmk: Basically if I start an event-loop that runs tcp-server and then connect to it via telnet ... SBCL tells me there is some memory corruption
2017-06-29T18:05:37Z knusbaum: A trace would be helpful. Sometimes there are bugs in libraries. Also make sure you're compiling your code with safety and debug on.
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2017-06-29T18:10:52Z hackmk: knusbaum, coming right up!
2017-06-29T18:11:23Z knusbaum: A paste of your problem code would be helpful too.
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2017-06-29T18:19:49Z hackmk: knusbaum, here ya go https://pastebin.com/EnE2Qan1
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2017-06-29T18:23:30Z hackmk: knusbaum, my SBCL version is 1.3.18 and libuv is 1.12.0
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2017-06-29T18:23:56Z hackmk: knusbaum, and I'm on Archlinux
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2017-06-29T18:24:36Z knusbaum: Hmm. The code runs fine for me.
2017-06-29T18:24:51Z knusbaum: I can't tell from the trace where the error is happening.
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2017-06-29T18:25:43Z knusbaum: Same versions of sbcl and libuv
2017-06-29T18:26:12Z knusbaum: Foreign function __clock_gettime
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2017-06-29T18:27:11Z hackmk: :(
2017-06-29T18:27:12Z knusbaum: Hmmm. maybe a bug in cl-async passing a null to clock_gettime
2017-06-29T18:28:09Z hackmk: But if that's true ... why don't you see it
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2017-06-29T18:28:36Z hackmk: Did you load cl-async from quickload or did you clone the repo
2017-06-29T18:30:00Z hackmk: I used quicklisp to download cl-async
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2017-06-29T18:38:04Z knusbaum: Yeah, I used quicklisp.
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2017-06-29T18:44:46Z hackmk: anyways ... think shall hit this again tomorrow ... thnx knusbaum
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2017-06-29T18:46:28Z knusbaum: np. Sorry I don't have any answers for you. :/
2017-06-29T18:46:34Z knusbaum: oh, he's gone.
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2017-06-29T19:16:19Z phoe: What are portability libraries to facilities such as save-lisp-and-die?
2017-06-29T19:17:06Z phoe: UIOP's DUMP-IMAGE?
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2017-06-29T19:25:24Z pjb: phoe: I believe cl-launch(er)?
2017-06-29T19:27:02Z jasom: phoe: cl-launch, roswell and dump-image are the ones I can think of
2017-06-29T19:27:13Z d0ngerTr0n is now known as COURYHOUSE
2017-06-29T19:28:20Z jasom: trivial-dump-core I found with googling
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2017-06-29T19:35:13Z jasom: should I give up on getting lz4-compressed core support merged into sbcl?
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2017-06-29T19:42:02Z aeth: If you're looking for a portable way to make and distribute a Lisp program, #lispgames might know of several solutions because they've been running Lisp game jams, where they make cross-platform executables for their games, probably in at least three variants of CL.
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2017-06-29T20:15:36Z _death: ha, I was reading about a very old book and its cover instantly reminded me of AMOP's (not just the style), although it's quite different in actuality
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2017-06-30T02:59:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-30T02:59:53Z beach: vtomole: I have a suggestion for you.
2017-06-30T03:00:58Z beach: vtomole: The suggestion is to work on the module for implementing Common Lisp packages.
2017-06-30T03:01:11Z beach: vtomole: There is a lot to be done.
2017-06-30T03:01:25Z beach: vtomole: Look in Code/Package/SICL-Specific/README to see what there is to do and let me know what you think.
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2017-06-30T03:06:01Z vtomole: beach: Looks good on first look.
2017-06-30T03:06:57Z beach: vtomole: Great!
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2017-06-30T03:07:46Z beach: vtomole: If you decide to work on it, I suggest you do minor improvements in many iterations, and send me a PR for each change.  That way, I don't have much to read and comment on in each iteration.
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2017-06-30T03:08:39Z beach: One iteration could be the creation of the separate files for conditions, one for splitting up the functions file, etc.
2017-06-30T03:09:02Z vtomole: Sounds good. I'll work on the ASDF file tonight.
2017-06-30T03:09:11Z beach: Great!  Thanks!
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2017-06-30T03:28:44Z vtomole: beach: When you say "It should be  modeled after", You want a copy of that file in the directory? Or are there things in those the files that will be different from the originals?
2017-06-30T03:29:02Z beach: Not a copy, no.  But the structure should be similar.
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2017-06-30T03:29:22Z beach: There is probably very little code to be shared.
2017-06-30T03:29:51Z beach: But the functions that are used, like the acclimation functions should also be used in the new file.
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2017-06-30T03:33:44Z beach: So you must read and understand the code in the original files, think of what it means, and create something similar for the package module.
2017-06-30T03:34:02Z beach: You can't just copy or count on any mechanical transformation.
2017-06-30T03:35:04Z beach: vtomole: And, of course, if there is ANYTHING in what you read that you do not understand, or that you do not see the purpose of, just ask.
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2017-06-30T03:44:35Z krwq: how do you find system defining package?
2017-06-30T03:44:56Z vtomole: beach: sicl-package system should depend on documentation-strings. Where is documentation-string system?
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2017-06-30T03:46:49Z beach: vtomole: Did I write that?
2017-06-30T03:47:32Z vtomole: "It needs an ASDF system definition.  It should depend on    acclimation for internationalized condition reporters and    documentation strings"
2017-06-30T03:48:04Z beach: "For things like condition reporters and documentation strings, it should depend on ACCLIMATION" is what I meant.
2017-06-30T03:48:15Z beach: So just ACCLIMATION.
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2017-06-30T03:53:11Z vtomole: beach: Where is the sicl-clos package defined?
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2017-06-30T03:53:42Z beach: vtomole: Yes, in the CLOS directory.  Where is it needed?
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2017-06-30T03:54:53Z beach: Ah, I see it.
2017-06-30T03:54:55Z vtomole: A function is functions.lisp calls it
2017-06-30T03:55:05Z beach: Change it to just MAKE-INSTANCE
2017-06-30T03:55:27Z beach: I no longer need a MAKE-BUILT-IN-INSTANCE.
2017-06-30T03:56:14Z beach: vtomole: More generally, there are some things you need to do in order to test this module in a non-SICL implementation...
2017-06-30T03:56:37Z beach: vtomole: For one thing, you need to :SHADOW the standard CL symbols.
2017-06-30T03:57:11Z beach: But you also need to remove the (:metaclass ...) option od DEFCLASS in such a situation.
2017-06-30T03:57:36Z beach: I suggest you do it with a reader conditional #+sicl or #-sicl.
2017-06-30T03:57:44Z beach: Do you know how to do that?
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2017-06-30T03:58:40Z vtomole: Maybe. So if this was bootsraped, we wouldn't have to do this?
2017-06-30T03:58:54Z vtomole: *bootstrapped
2017-06-30T03:58:59Z beach: Yes, sort of.
2017-06-30T03:59:19Z beach: In a real SICL system, this would be the standard definition.
2017-06-30T03:59:37Z beach: But if you want to test it in SBCL, all hell would break loose if you try to redefine what a package is.
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2017-06-30T04:01:19Z vtomole: "No package named SICL-CLOS" Does that mean i have to load the packages.lisp in the CLOS directory before i start the sicl-package system?
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2017-06-30T04:01:53Z beach: When you replace make-built-in-instance with make-instance, you also remove the package prefix, so the package is no longer needed.
2017-06-30T04:02:26Z beach: So replace sicl-clos:make-built-in-instance by make-instance.  No sicl-clos needed.
2017-06-30T04:03:48Z vtomole: oops yeah make-instance is built in. I really should use CLOS  in my own code for practice. Idk why i avoid it.
2017-06-30T04:04:34Z beach: In the package definition, I think something like (:shadow . #-sicl (#:package #:make-package ...)) should make it possible to test this code in non-SICL systems.
2017-06-30T04:05:04Z beach: In the class definition, you need #+sicl (:metaclass ...)
2017-06-30T04:06:32Z beach: The first of these will make it look like (:shadow) in a non-SICL system, and like (:shadow #:package #:make-package ...) in a SICL system.
2017-06-30T04:09:34Z beach: vtomole: Getting comfortable with CLOS is a good thing, and essential for SICL, since SICL is using it more than any other implementation as far as I can tell.
2017-06-30T04:10:35Z beach: vtomole: Most Common Lisp implementations were started before CLOS was part of Common Lisp, and then CLOS was added (usually in the form of PCL) when the standard was published, requiring CLOS.
2017-06-30T04:10:38Z vtomole: "(defpackage sicl-package   (:use #:common-lisp)   (:shadow . #-sicl (#:package #:make-package))"
2017-06-30T04:10:53Z vtomole: Like that?
2017-06-30T04:10:55Z beach: Yes, something like that.
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2017-06-30T04:11:54Z beach: vtomole: SICL, on the other hand, assumes the existence of CLOS, so the system code can be made much simpler and much more understandable by using CLOS.
2017-06-30T04:12:31Z vtomole: "Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when defining MAKE-PACKAGE as a function while in package SICL-PACKAGE."
2017-06-30T04:12:52Z beach: That should not happen if it is shadowed.
2017-06-30T04:13:04Z beach: So there is something about the shadowing that is not working.
2017-06-30T04:13:31Z loke: beach: Does the spec allow an implementation to implement functions that are described as normal functions as generic functions instead?
2017-06-30T04:13:46Z beach: loke: It does, yes.
2017-06-30T04:13:47Z jasom is 99% sure it does
2017-06-30T04:14:26Z loke: Thanks.
2017-06-30T04:16:10Z vtomole: It is pretty strange. Also tried "(:shadow #package #make-package)"
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2017-06-30T04:19:32Z vtomole: beach: Works now
2017-06-30T04:19:41Z beach: Great!
2017-06-30T04:19:45Z vtomole: beach: I was exporting make-package
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2017-06-30T04:20:11Z beach: OK, there is no need to export any symbols at this point.
2017-06-30T04:20:17Z vtomole: "Package SICL-SYMBOL-LOW does not exist."
2017-06-30T04:20:31Z vtomole: Guessing that is in the Symbols dir ;)
2017-06-30T04:21:08Z beach: Let's try to get rid of the dependency.
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2017-06-30T04:21:51Z vtomole: Line 97 in functions.lisp
2017-06-30T04:22:08Z beach: I see it.
2017-06-30T04:22:51Z beach: This is in the function INTERN.
2017-06-30T04:22:58Z beach: First of all, you need to shadow INTERN as well.
2017-06-30T04:23:12Z beach: Second, you don't have to include everything right away.
2017-06-30T04:23:16Z beach: INTERN can wait.
2017-06-30T04:23:55Z beach: vtomole: Besides, if you split up the big file as I suggested, then INTERN will be defined in a separate file, so you can exclude it from the ASDF system in the beginning.
2017-06-30T04:24:08Z beach: vtomole: Try not to attempt to do everything from the start.
2017-06-30T04:24:45Z vtomole: I wont split the file today, i just want to define the system.
2017-06-30T04:25:24Z beach: vtomole: OK, but in that case, do not include the functions.lisp file in the system.  Instead include a file containing a single definition, like MAKE-PACKAGE.
2017-06-30T04:25:42Z beach: Otherwise, you will get tons of error messages about package locks.
2017-06-30T04:26:00Z beach: Almost every definition in functions.lisp is a package-lock violation.
2017-06-30T04:26:08Z vtomole: For sure. How does functions-temp.lisp sound?
2017-06-30T04:26:08Z beach: So you need to do it incrementally.
2017-06-30T04:26:25Z beach: Sure.
2017-06-30T04:26:55Z beach: This is GIT so everything can be changed easily.
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2017-06-30T04:29:49Z vtomole: "file: /home/vtomole/quicklisp/local-projects/SICL/Code/Package/SICL-Specific/functions-temp.lisp ; in: DEFUN MAKE-PACKAGE ;     (SETF (SICL-PACKAGE::NICKNAMES PACKAGE (COPY-LIST SICL-PACKAGE::NICKNAMES))) ;  ; caught ERROR: ;   during macroexpansion of (SETF #). Use *BREAK-ON-SIGNALS* to intercept. ;    ;    error while parsing arguments to DESTRUCTURING-BIND: ;      too few elements in ;        ((NICKNAMES PACKAGE (COPY-LIST NICKNAMES)
2017-06-30T04:30:02Z vtomole: Oops too big should have pasted that one
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2017-06-30T04:31:51Z beach: Did you put a definition of make-package in your temp file?
2017-06-30T04:32:33Z vtomole: Yes
2017-06-30T04:32:53Z beach: Comment it out for now.  None of this code has ever been tested, so you can't count on anything working.
2017-06-30T04:33:21Z vtomole: Yeah it has 3 FIXME comments :)
2017-06-30T04:33:37Z beach: Again, it is best to do things incrementally.
2017-06-30T04:33:56Z beach: Get the structure right.  Only afterwards, work on the definitions.
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2017-06-30T04:35:16Z beach: You can basically consider the code in this system to be obsolete.  So to work on it, you need to understand what the Common Lisp package system does and then write code that does that.  This might take you some time, but it is a good learning experience.
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2017-06-30T04:37:21Z beach: To continue my musings about how existing Common Lisp implementation do things differently from what I do in SICL, here is a typical example: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/src/clos/hierarchy.lsp
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2017-06-30T04:37:42Z beach: This is the definition of part of CLOS from the ECL repository.
2017-06-30T04:39:02Z beach: Notice how this file contains definitions of slots in classes such as SPECIALIZER, CLASS, STANDARD-CLASS, etc.  But it is not using defclass to define those slots!!!!!!
2017-06-30T04:39:19Z vtomole: Am i missing anything? https://github.com/vtomole/SICL/commit/835dbb49c626fb43567407814d0ae503f0b0bc7e
2017-06-30T04:39:49Z vtomole: ecl is jackdaniels lisp right?
2017-06-30T04:40:17Z beach: He started maintaining it recently, yes.  But he didn't write it in the first place.
2017-06-30T04:40:51Z beach: vtomole: Looks good to me, but don't put closing parentheses by themselves on a line.
2017-06-30T04:41:27Z vtomole: Okay.
2017-06-30T04:41:41Z beach: vtomole: Oh and the DEFSYSTEM form.  Put a (cl:in-package #:asdf-user) in that file, and remove the ASDF: package prefix on DEFSYSTEM.
2017-06-30T04:42:15Z beach: vtomole: No blank lines in the middle of a top-level form or at the end of a file.
2017-06-30T04:42:16Z vtomole: Just personal taste or just how you should do it?
2017-06-30T04:42:35Z beach: No, the ASDF-USER is from the ASDF manual.
2017-06-30T04:43:12Z beach: It is not strictly necessary, because ASDF system definitions are always loaded into that package, but it helps SLIME determine the package.
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2017-06-30T04:44:48Z beach: [continuing my musings] So compare that ECL definition with this one from SICL: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/CLOS/class-defclass.lisp
2017-06-30T04:45:01Z beach: It just uses DEFCLASS to define the class CLASS.
2017-06-30T04:45:19Z vtomole: Sorry one more: "No blank lines in the middle of a top-level form" which files are you refering to?
2017-06-30T04:45:27Z vtomole: The placeholders?
2017-06-30T04:45:33Z beach: Line 10 of your DEFSYSTEM file
2017-06-30T04:46:18Z beach: (:file "functions-temp") followed by a blank line.
2017-06-30T04:46:51Z beach: But you probably removed it when you put the closing parentheses where they belong.
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2017-06-30T04:51:15Z vtomole: How about this:https://github.com/vtomole/SICL/blob/master/Code/Package/SICL-Specific/sicl-package.asd
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2017-06-30T04:55:49Z beach: Looks good, except I would like a single blank line BETWEEN top-level forms.  Not INSIDE them.
2017-06-30T04:56:34Z beach: Oh, and do not put multiple consecutive spaces as between defsystem and :sicl-package.  A single space is good.
2017-06-30T04:57:17Z beach: Does that make sense?
2017-06-30T04:59:56Z vtomole: Yeah
2017-06-30T04:59:57Z beach: Rules like that may seem silly, but uniform-looking code is essential to make some tools work.  Imagine someone doing: grep "defsystem :sicl-package" $(find . -name "*.lisp" -print)
2017-06-30T05:00:08Z beach: It will fail if there are two spaces.
2017-06-30T05:00:36Z beach: Stupid example, I know, but it illustrates the point.
2017-06-30T05:03:13Z beach: vtomole: I think this is great!  If you continue this work, you will learn tons of stuff.
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2017-06-30T05:04:30Z vtomole_: beach:http://paste.lisp.org/display/349726
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2017-06-30T05:04:47Z beach: Perfect!
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2017-06-30T05:06:02Z vtomole_: :)
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2017-06-30T05:11:54Z vtomole_: You were talking about ClOS. How many built in cl functions and macros are there? It seems to be a lot.
2017-06-30T05:12:13Z vtomole_: I keep finding new features everyday
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2017-06-30T05:16:09Z beach: Several hundred.
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2017-06-30T05:17:22Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm
2017-06-30T05:17:54Z beach: There are 978 symbols in the COMMON-LISP package.  Not all of them define functions and macros of course.
2017-06-30T05:18:59Z beach: vtomole_: It is worthwhile clicking on each chapter of this at some point: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
2017-06-30T05:19:23Z beach: If you then click on the "dictionary" section, it will give you an idea of what exists.
2017-06-30T05:20:08Z beach: For this particular SICL module, it is good to know about this chapter: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_.htm
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2017-06-30T05:24:45Z vtomole_: beach: It's a big language allright! haha.
2017-06-30T05:25:33Z vtomole_: I can't comprehend how one person can implement all of these in a couple of years...
2017-06-30T05:25:42Z vtomole_: One definition a day?
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2017-06-30T05:30:59Z beach: vtomole_: Some people work that way.  I think that would be hard.
2017-06-30T05:32:11Z beach: It would be hard, because if done that way, there would be no real design or consistent architecture behind the entire thing.
2017-06-30T05:35:18Z beach: For example, in SICL, I have first-class global environments, so a Common Lisp function such as FDEFINITION is defined like this (defun fdefinition (function-name) (sicl-genv:fdefinition (sicl-genv:current-environment) function-name)) or something like that.  So I had to design the entire first-class global environments protocol before I could define functions such as FDEFINITION.
2017-06-30T05:37:17Z loke: beach: Is SICL complete? (in the sense that it implements all of CL)
2017-06-30T05:37:36Z vtomole_: And clasp.. are they implementing these sysmbols in C++? Cause that would be insane...
2017-06-30T05:37:49Z beach: loke: No it is not.
2017-06-30T05:37:56Z loke: beach: What's missing?
2017-06-30T05:38:40Z beach: loke: Hard to say.  Lots of stuff, but mostly minor stuff.  Like packages, which vtomole_ is now working on.  But the main part is still bootstrapping which is not finished.
2017-06-30T05:39:38Z beach: vtomole_: People who write Common Lisp systems in some other language typically end up with a minimal subset of Common Lisp written in that language.  Then they write the rest of Common Lisp on top of that minimal subset.
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2017-06-30T05:40:17Z beach: vtomole_: That is why ECL can not use DEFCLASS to define the class CLASS.  Because at that point in the bootstrapping process, DEFCLASS does not exist.  It is not part of the minimal subset.
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2017-06-30T05:41:14Z beach: loke: I *think* all the major design decisions have been made, and I think I have implemented infrastructure to support them.  So it is mostly a question of filling in the blanks.
2017-06-30T05:41:40Z vtomole_: Clasp is 61 % C++, not really minimal. But I guess that is not a good metric since it takes more lines to express the same concept in C++ vs CL.
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2017-06-30T05:42:06Z beach: vtomole_: Right.
2017-06-30T05:43:16Z beach: vtomole_: By "minimal" I meant "a system that contains the smallest subset of Common Lisp that can be used to implement all the rest".
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2017-06-30T05:43:34Z beach: The problem, of course, is that there is not a unique such smallest subset.
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2017-06-30T05:44:42Z beach: Worse, it is often possible to write less code if the minimal system contains functionality that is NOT in the Common Lisp standard, but that happens to make it easier to implement the rest.
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2017-06-30T05:46:05Z vtomole_: I dont understand why someone would do that unless the platform they were developing on did not already have a CL implementation. But idk..
2017-06-30T05:46:49Z beach: vtomole_: Yes, that is the good question.  I am working on an article that tries to explain how people think in order to arrive at solutions like that.
2017-06-30T05:47:30Z beach: vtomole_: Clasp is a bit different from the others, though.
2017-06-30T05:47:52Z beach: Clasp needs LLVM and the interface to LLVM that it uses is in C++.
2017-06-30T05:48:41Z beach: So it seemed "natural" to implement Clasp in C++.  Though using (say) SBCL with FFI for using LLVM might have been possible as well.
2017-06-30T05:48:58Z vtomole_: It wouldn't take long to make a CL interface to LLVM
2017-06-30T05:49:03Z vtomole_: Ah here we go:https://github.com/sellout/CL-LLVM
2017-06-30T05:49:11Z beach: Yep, it exists.
2017-06-30T05:50:09Z beach: I think the real reason Clasp is written in C++ is that drmeister masters C++ quite well (according to himself), and, contrary to what he sometimes claims, I think he likes to program in it.
2017-06-30T05:51:02Z beach: Or, at least, I think that was the original reason.
2017-06-30T05:52:02Z beach: Lately, he has been known to utter things like "there are no specific features of C++ left that I use, except for templates, and now they turn out to be a pain in the neck too".
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2017-06-30T05:54:45Z beach: vtomole_: Having said that, I should point out that it is not trivial to write a Common Lisp system entirely in Common Lisp.  The main difficulty is bootstrapping.  And since nobody has done it before, there are still things to invent.
2017-06-30T05:55:00Z beach: SBCL comes close, but they also use a subset of Common Lisp.
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2017-06-30T05:55:31Z beach: So, for instance, the SBCL compiler is written without the use of generic functions and such CLOS features.
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2017-06-30T05:56:57Z vtomole_: beach: Mezzano is bootstrapped.
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2017-06-30T06:01:05Z beach: vtomole_: You mean it is written in Common Lisp?
2017-06-30T06:01:31Z beach: vtomole_: Yes, but as we saw the other day, it has a fair amount of assembly disguised as Common Lisp.
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2017-06-30T06:04:04Z beach: I should definitely study how Mezzano does its bootstrapping.
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2017-06-30T06:05:27Z beach: Oh, right.  It uses Closette for its object system.
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2017-06-30T06:09:50Z vtomole_: Haha yes that assembly disguised as Lisp.  I personally think it counts as Lisp.
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2017-06-30T06:14:53Z vtomole_: What is your ideal bootstrapped implementation?
2017-06-30T06:16:16Z beach: Well, ideally, most of the assembly code would be located as small code snippets in the code generator of the compiler.
2017-06-30T06:16:41Z beach: vtomole_: I think you are using the word "bootstrapping" in a non-standard way.
2017-06-30T06:17:11Z beach: vtomole_: The Common Lisp systems that are written in C or C++ also need to be bootstrapped.
2017-06-30T06:17:34Z beach: Do you mean Common Lisp system written entirely in Common Lisp?
2017-06-30T06:17:50Z vtomole_: Yeah
2017-06-30T06:18:14Z beach: As far as I know, there is none, except possibly Mezzano which I need to study more before I have opinions of it.
2017-06-30T06:18:46Z beach: vtomole_: Have you read the paper by Xof about bootstrapping?
2017-06-30T06:18:50Z beach: It is quite interesting.
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2017-06-30T06:19:16Z beach: https://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/s32008/sbcl.pdf
2017-06-30T06:19:48Z vtomole_: I've skimmed it
2017-06-30T06:21:05Z jasom: vtomole_: I think you mean self-hosting rather than bootstrapping?
2017-06-30T06:21:22Z beach: I found a comment in Mezzano saying that CLOS is not present in the "cold system", suggesting that a CLOS-free system is first created, and then CLOS is added later.
2017-06-30T06:21:24Z vtomole_: I thought they were the same thing. But yeah
2017-06-30T06:22:06Z vtomole_: beach: Whats a "cold system"
2017-06-30T06:22:20Z beach: vtomole_: I don't know.  Mezzano-specific terminology.
2017-06-30T06:22:41Z vtomole_: beach: Mezzano's gc:https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/system/gc.lisp
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2017-06-30T06:23:40Z vtomole_: jasom: So what is the difference?
2017-06-30T06:23:58Z jasom: vtomole_: "self-hosting" means a compiler can compile itself
2017-06-30T06:24:06Z beach: vtomole_: "bootstrap" usually just means "build".
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2017-06-30T06:24:45Z jasom: beach: for self-hosting compilers, it can also mean the way to get the first version that can compile itself
2017-06-30T06:24:59Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2017-06-30T06:27:36Z jasom: and the term comes from the american idiom "to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" which invokes the image of lifting yourself off the ground by tugging on your shoes (something physically impossible) which in non-computing settings refers to getting oneself out of a seemingly impossible situation (e.g. becoming very wealthy despite being born into poverty)
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2017-06-30T06:29:29Z jasom: google found one correction: it's a british idiom originally
2017-06-30T06:30:21Z jasom: booting a computer comes from the same origin
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2017-06-30T06:55:59Z pjb: jasom: it comes from Germany, Baron Munchausen  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping
2017-06-30T07:00:14Z jasom: pjb: the link says that bootstraps were not mentioned at all in Munchausen
2017-06-30T07:02:13Z jasom: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pull_oneself_up_by_one%27s_bootstraps#English claims 19th century US
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2017-06-30T08:37:38Z axion: Can someone help me write a version of alexandria:flatten that works with vectors too? I would like (flatten `(1 2 (3 4 ,(vector 5 6)))) => (1 2 3 4 5 6), rather than currently as (1 2 3 4 #(5 6)).
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2017-06-30T08:48:00Z flip214: axion: can a vector have non-atomic elements?
2017-06-30T08:48:23Z axion: no, in this case just floats
2017-06-30T08:48:38Z axion: but it would be nice to be robust, though not required
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2017-06-30T08:51:08Z flip214: axion: how about http://paste.lisp.org/display/349740
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2017-06-30T08:53:05Z axion: I just came up with something. Let me analyze your solution
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2017-06-30T08:54:39Z axion: I do believe those parens are unbalanced or something
2017-06-30T08:54:55Z axion: Was missing a closing paren, and getting variables defined but never used
2017-06-30T08:55:19Z flip214: oh yeah, sorry.
2017-06-30T08:55:31Z flip214: dropped a few lines and dropped a ) too much
2017-06-30T08:56:07Z flip214: axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349740#1
2017-06-30T08:57:12Z axion: I do appreciate the help, but mine seems to be slightly faster
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2017-06-30T08:58:10Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/349740#2
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2017-06-30T09:13:44Z flip214: axion: ain't you pushing NILs in your list?
2017-06-30T09:14:19Z axion: no
2017-06-30T09:15:57Z axion: If I removed the WHEN form, then yeah it would be
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2017-06-30T09:18:19Z axion: I can see the confusion though. The MAP just dispatches to inside the vector atom when it catches T next time
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2017-06-30T11:20:34Z pjb: jasom: Indeed, the last time I read about Munchausen, they talked specifically about boots and montain climbing, but now wikipedia talks about hair and swamps…
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2017-06-30T14:48:26Z dlowe: hmph. I just noticed none of my sbcl contributions are noted in the repository history.
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2017-06-30T14:56:53Z Xach: boo
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2017-06-30T14:58:41Z dlowe: It was a different time, when the maintainers would apply patches themselves instead of accepting commits from others.
2017-06-30T14:59:29Z dim: PostgreSQL still does that, they have a very small pool of committers. They still always are explicit about who's contributing, tho...
2017-06-30T14:59:40Z dlowe: I really only care because I was vaguely remembering a bug I fixed (in the runtime) and couldn't remember the details.
2017-06-30T14:59:59Z dlowe: *shrug* no biggie
2017-06-30T15:00:24Z dim: e.g. https://github.com/postgres/postgres/commit/8c55244ae379822d8bf62f6db0b5b1f7637eea3a
2017-06-30T15:00:26Z TMA: with git having author and committer as separate fields, there is no need to lose that information
2017-06-30T15:00:47Z dlowe: sbcl still doesn't use git, IIRC.
2017-06-30T15:01:02Z dim: dlowe: still it's good hygiene for Open Source projets to be careful about who's contributing, if only to encourage more contributors to join the Hall of Fame
2017-06-30T15:01:24Z dim: pgsql didn't use to use git until quite recently, it has been CVS a long time
2017-06-30T15:01:27Z Bike: pretty sure sbcl uses git, but maybe not github, canonically
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2017-06-30T15:02:15Z dlowe: ah, it does now. I wonder when they switched.
2017-06-30T15:02:27Z dlowe: (and why they chose sourceforge of all places)
2017-06-30T15:02:55Z jackdaniel: sourceforge was a very reasonable choice well before github was popular
2017-06-30T15:03:02Z Bike: i think they switched to sourceforge before it because uh, well, you know
2017-06-30T15:03:07Z Bike: became*
2017-06-30T15:03:23Z jackdaniel: so the question is - why didn't they change it. answer is probably - it works fine for them, and switch takes a lot of time.
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2017-06-30T15:09:24Z dim: given git it's pretty easy to target a new origin
2017-06-30T15:09:53Z dim: the problem is more about issues and mailing lists and whatnot
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2017-06-30T15:32:32Z dlowe: I don't feel sourceforge has been a reasonable choice since 2002, but whatever.
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2017-06-30T15:52:29Z dim: agreed
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2017-06-30T16:10:12Z Fare: and then, there's the bug tracker on launchpad...
2017-06-30T16:10:28Z Fare: but who am I to say, ASDF's bug tracker is also still on launchpad.
2017-06-30T16:11:23Z Bike: hey fare. i wanted to ask you if something like poiu could be used for building on a system where compile-file and such can run concurrently.
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2017-06-30T16:23:46Z Fare: not sure what you mean, but poiu is working, yes
2017-06-30T16:24:10Z Bike: i mean, poiu works by forking. i'm talking about running compile-file in threads
2017-06-30T16:24:18Z Fare: oh, threads.
2017-06-30T16:24:24Z Fare: What implementation allows this???
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2017-06-30T16:24:53Z Fare: I mean, without a global lock or some such for the compiler.
2017-06-30T16:24:54Z Bike: clasp dev, though i haven't tested it extensively
2017-06-30T16:25:13Z Bike: cleavir and llvm are both thread safe. there was only a global lock for one errant hash table
2017-06-30T16:25:21Z Fare: but yes, it should be trivial to modify poiu to use threads instead of forks.
2017-06-30T16:25:40Z Bike: i tried looking through it but the action plan stuff was beyond me.
2017-06-30T16:26:24Z Fare: now, if you're going to hack poiu, I recommend using the latest version, in the asdf3.3 branch, that relies on the "plan" branch of asdf.
2017-06-30T16:26:35Z Fare: you don't need change anything to plan.
2017-06-30T16:27:28Z Fare: it's a matter of replacing call-queue/forking by a call-queue/threading
2017-06-30T16:28:30Z Fare: and hacking doqueue/forking funcall the active one (stored in a parameter) instead of directly calling call-queue/forking
2017-06-30T16:28:39Z Bike: there was something in there about needed-in-image-p that concerned me
2017-06-30T16:29:15Z Fare: or making call-queue/forking itself should be the one using an extra parameter to handle either forking or threading.
2017-06-30T16:29:35Z Fare: nothing to be concerned about -- with threads, it's already in-image
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2017-06-30T16:30:16Z Bike: ok.
2017-06-30T16:30:47Z Fare: actually, adding a parameter to call-queue/forking that is an object with suitable fork/join methods sounds like a better solution
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2017-06-30T16:32:09Z Fare: I remember trying threads on CCL and SBCL, only to find that some crucial compilation steps happened inside a big lock (especially wherever CLOS is involved).
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2017-06-30T16:32:40Z Fare: if you can fork, do it... it's also better for the GC.
2017-06-30T16:32:47Z Bike: sbcl has a huge compiler lock. i don't know about ccl
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2017-06-30T16:33:09Z Bike: there's also a "world lock" on clos, and that's a lot harder to deal with, probably
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2017-06-30T16:35:15Z Fare: in any case, I tried threads once, and at least on SBCL and CCL it didn't help, so I dropped it. But you're welcome to do it on clasp — though forking should also be better on CLASP (except of course on Windows).
2017-06-30T16:35:51Z Bike: you think? all right, then.
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2017-06-30T17:07:48Z phoe: CL-YESQL question, the importing example on https://github.com/TBRSS/cl-yesql does not work anymore - it complains about (:all-as-functions) not being a a proper binding designator.
2017-06-30T17:08:06Z phoe: Actually - this is an Overlord question.
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2017-06-30T17:32:14Z phoe: ...how is this package even usable
2017-06-30T17:32:51Z phoe went from "wow, I can use this" through "wait, how do I use this" through "why the fuck do I get these errors" to "how can anyone use this" and "is this even usable"
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2017-06-30T17:39:04Z oleo: lol
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2017-06-30T18:00:43Z knusbaum: Question on handler-bind: How can I return a value from handler-bind, unwinding the stack, similar to handler-case? The only reason I don't just use handler-case is that some of my handlers need to invoke restarts, and I'd prefer to keep all the handlers together in one handler-* form.
2017-06-30T18:01:09Z _death: return-from works
2017-06-30T18:01:17Z knusbaum: Great, thanks.
2017-06-30T18:03:19Z _death: you can also check out the macroexpansion of handler-case.. on sbcl it uses GO
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2017-06-30T18:09:32Z knusbaum: Yeah, I was looking at that, but I figured there was a canonical way, and that relying on an implementation's particular expansion would be a bad idea.
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2017-06-30T18:10:46Z Bike: how it works is that if a condition is to be "handled", you do a nonlocal exit. return-from can do that, go can do that. in that sense either way is "canonical" - sbcl's expansion would work on other implementation as well (if you scrubbed dx-flet and such, i forget if it has that)
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2017-06-30T18:47:13Z phoe: What alternatives to CL-YESQL exist?
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2017-06-30T18:54:01Z PuercoPop: phoe: The author of yesql used to recommend using cl-interpol with parens as the outer delimiter
2017-06-30T18:57:45Z Fare: explaining things to rpgoldman, I found a way to improve ASDF (slightly). Yeah!
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2017-06-30T19:04:41Z Fare: oops, that optimization was already done. Sorry.
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2017-06-30T19:21:55Z phoe: PuercoPop: I like the idea of separating my SQL from my Lisp on a per-file basis
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2017-06-30T19:23:24Z phoe: and this means that I need to be able to use parameters/variables.
2017-06-30T19:23:31Z PuercoPop: phoe: I like the idea as well, but cl-yesql is a motivating example for an alpha-quality experiment ruricolist is writting
2017-06-30T19:24:17Z PuercoPop: *writing
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2017-06-30T19:25:25Z phoe: PuercoPop: I can't get it to work on my relatively simple example
2017-06-30T19:25:45Z PuercoPop: Also before leaving sexps behind, Take heed of the that Lisp is a jealous god as Henry Baker noted j/k
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2017-06-30T19:28:45Z phoe: PuercoPop: well, this god will need to share with people I might be collaborating with who don't know Lisp
2017-06-30T19:30:11Z phoe: and also because I want to learn SQL vanilla before I come back to the round side of the Force
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2017-06-30T20:35:52Z jasom: phoe: cl-dbi and SxQL, as well as cl-postgres and cl-mysql
2017-06-30T20:37:15Z raynold: Ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-06-30T21:04:34Z jsjolen: with (defgeneric f (a b)) and method (f ((a t) (b t))) then why does (compute-applicable-methods #'f (list "too" "many" "arguments")) return the (t t) method? I'm using SBCL, I'd expect the empty list.
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2017-06-30T21:09:38Z Bike: iit's not compute applicable method's job to check that
2017-06-30T21:10:03Z Bike: the mop actually specifically says it ignores extra arguments
2017-06-30T21:10:41Z jsjolen: Bike:Aight, thanks. I guess it's no-applicable-methods job
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2017-06-30T21:11:08Z Bike: no, it's the discriminating function, really
2017-06-30T21:11:30Z Bike: no-applicable-method is just a function for reporting an error
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