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2017-01-01T00:22:40Z phoe: (happy-year-p (new-year)) ; => T
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2017-01-01T00:29:36Z White_Flame: (ql:quickload :local-time)
2017-01-01T00:29:45Z White_Flame: (new-year-p) ; => NIL
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2017-01-01T00:49:26Z edgar-rft: now that christmas is over, we're again in pre-christmas time!
2017-01-01T00:51:59Z Bike: the least magical time of the year
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2017-01-01T00:54:32Z edgar-rft: not when you're a magician!
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2017-01-01T02:26:36Z pseudonymous: jmarciano: If I understood you right then http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html shows you how you might write out a lisp data-structure and read it back in.
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2017-01-01T02:38:04Z aeth: Is the only difference between (let ((foo (lambda (...) ...))) ...) and (flet ((foo (...) ...)) ...) that the lambda one has to be called with (funcall foo ...) instead of (foo ...) or (funcall #'foo ...) or is there more of a difference?
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2017-01-01T02:40:09Z aeth: It looks like the easiest way to transpile a Lisp-1 to CL would be to just turn (foo ...) into (funcall foo ...) during the transpilation and use lambdas (perhaps with hidden parameters) as the functions and for the environment.
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2017-01-01T02:52:43Z axion: yes, different namespaces. consider this as well...
2017-01-01T02:53:07Z axion: try this in your repl: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/6411c8ff2d758195918befbd0a1bb0cd
2017-01-01T02:53:23Z axion: as you can see, different results whether funcall'ing a symbol or function designator
2017-01-01T02:56:53Z aeth: hmm, then afaik the only problem with using CL's environment would be handling the global environment
2017-01-01T02:57:40Z aeth: If I create a new top-level variable or function, it would need to be accessed if there is no locally-scoped thing of the same name
2017-01-01T02:58:01Z aeth: e.g. in a REPL
2017-01-01T02:59:08Z axion: the important bit is symboils are more than just tokens
2017-01-01T02:59:15Z axion: but have property lists, etc
2017-01-01T02:59:15Z _death: flet also sets up a block
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2017-01-01T03:05:01Z _death: but I don't think that'll work for such transformation (avoid nonsense term "transpile")
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2017-01-01T03:06:14Z aeth: _death: The thing is, the actual compilation comes when the CL compiles the generated code.
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2017-01-01T03:07:02Z aeth: This would just generate funny looking CL with a foo- prefix on every symbol so there's no collision with CL functions
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2017-01-01T03:17:01Z aeth: Actually, not even that is necessary... It could just not use CL.
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2017-01-01T03:20:36Z aeth: (A Lisp-1 faked the way I said would avoid *almost* all issues even without prefixes or packages, but there would still be issues if e.g. someone tried to set most-positive-fixnum for some reason)
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2017-01-01T03:21:44Z _death: ((constantly t))
2017-01-01T03:21:58Z aeth: Yes, but most-positive-fixnum isn't supposed to exist. :-)
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2017-01-01T03:32:15Z aeth: cl:* isn't supposed to exist, either, but there are probably ways around that, like interpreting cl:* as |CL:*|
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2017-01-01T03:42:28Z adlai: forget that, try most-positive bignum
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2017-01-01T03:59:33Z peterbig: System "map-set" not found
2017-01-01T03:59:35Z peterbig:    [Condition of type QUICKLISP-CLIENT:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND]
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2017-01-01T04:00:15Z peterbig: where can I find it
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2017-01-01T04:00:46Z peterbig: I use sbcl slime emacs in ubuntu
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2017-01-01T04:31:53Z adlai: peterbig: yknow this is not #quicklisp-support
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2017-01-01T04:32:26Z peterbig: ok thank you
2017-01-01T04:33:02Z adlai: you are very 'welcome
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2017-01-01T04:47:01Z Bike: it kind of is quicklisp support
2017-01-01T04:50:48Z adlai: yech, napflu jibborim
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2017-01-01T05:30:51Z beach: Happy New Year everyone!
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2017-01-01T07:41:26Z kammd: Hey guys which common lisp implementation supports AIX and HPUX along with linux/windows. I thought sbcl did but the downloads page doesn't mention AIX/HPUX.
2017-01-01T07:43:52Z hydan: kammd: I don't know if any have direct support but you could probably get away with ECL, as it can compile to C
2017-01-01T07:44:08Z Zhivago: AIX and PHUX are both approximately posix, so sbcl will probably just work.
2017-01-01T07:44:37Z Zhivago: You may just need to build from source.
2017-01-01T07:45:21Z H4ns: Zhivago: does sbcl have backends for power and hppa that "just work"?
2017-01-01T07:46:02Z Zhivago: Well, that's another question.
2017-01-01T07:46:05Z kammd: Zhivago: hmm yeah  true, I will give it a go. I just wanted to see if any implementation suports it out of the box.
2017-01-01T07:46:22Z H4ns: Zhivago: i think that was the question.
2017-01-01T07:46:38Z Zhivago: Given that AIX runs on x86, I don't think it was.
2017-01-01T07:47:34Z H4ns: kammd: if you're looking for a common lisp that runs on aix on power/powerpc or on hpux on hppa, i think it is not just a matter of compiling.
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2017-01-01T07:48:53Z H4ns: kammd: clisp seems to actually have supported both.  lispworks is (or at least was) available for aix.
2017-01-01T07:49:11Z kammd: H4ns: Yeah I am looking for common lisp for power4 and hppa.
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2017-01-01T07:58:26Z kammd: Hmm found a commit for ECL https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/merge_requests/18 which seems to fix issues with xlc
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2017-01-01T08:00:32Z rjid: Happy new year!
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2017-01-01T10:37:30Z peterbig: Happy New Year
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2017-01-01T10:41:13Z beach: You too, peterbig.
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2017-01-01T10:42:24Z beach: Did you figure out how to run the game?
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2017-01-01T10:44:01Z peterbig: yeah,I need download so many systems
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2017-01-01T10:45:34Z peterbig: sorry,My english is not well
2017-01-01T10:46:58Z beach: s/well/good/ :)
2017-01-01T10:47:26Z beach: "good" is an adjective, "well" is an adverb.
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2017-01-01T10:49:56Z peterbig: The game which we have discussed yesterday can't run well.
2017-01-01T10:50:13Z beach: Why is that?
2017-01-01T10:51:23Z peterbig: the coordinates are not right from my screen
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2017-01-01T10:52:15Z peterbig: author 's screen is not the same with me
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2017-01-01T10:53:03Z beach: Maybe you can fix it.
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2017-01-01T10:55:42Z peterbig: I'll try to fix it
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2017-01-01T10:55:56Z peterbig: thanks for you help
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2017-01-01T11:45:36Z prole: Hie, I have a little problem: my code is of this form: "(format t "enter this") (let ((var (read-line))) (..))". In the REPL, everything works well, but when I compiled it and use it in the command line, "enter this" appears only after (read-line). I have to type, press RET and then format make its work... I don't understand what is the problem
2017-01-01T11:45:59Z beach: clhs finish-output
2017-01-01T11:46:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
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2017-01-01T11:46:15Z prole: well, that was fast
2017-01-01T11:46:17Z prole: thanks :)
2017-01-01T11:46:27Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-01-01T14:37:50Z ludston: Here is a fun one for you
2017-01-01T14:38:15Z ludston: (sin (* pi 4)) has a different value in sbcl than to clisp
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2017-01-01T14:39:17Z ludston: -4*10^-16 vs 2*10^-19 respectively
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2017-01-01T14:40:13Z phoe: ludston: uh
2017-01-01T14:40:37Z phoe: looks like usual float inequality stuff
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2017-01-01T14:44:09Z ludston: phoe: Ya. Its a shame really. More annoying though is that (sin (* 8 pi)) has another value altogether
2017-01-01T14:45:45Z ludston: Just because in pen to paper math sin(360) = sin(0)
2017-01-01T14:46:31Z ludston: Ah well. I guess you have to suffer to be beautiful
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2017-01-01T14:51:58Z phoe: ludston: float math has surprisingly little in common with paper maths
2017-01-01T14:52:15Z phoe: especially when you take errors into account.
2017-01-01T14:52:49Z phoe: if you do paper math with accounting for all the possible computation errors that may arise, then you'll get similar values here, too.
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2017-01-01T15:25:25Z jmarciano: also is slightly different in ECL and in MKCL is similar to SBCL
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2017-01-01T15:29:32Z phoe: ludston: if you want algebraic-precise computation, use one of Lisp algebra packages/tools or, if you need to look away from Lisp, Mathematica, MATLAB, Maple or Octave.
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2017-01-01T17:55:25Z lisp192: Hey, I am trying to refresh my lisp skills and would like to ask what I should do so that my function
2017-01-01T17:55:40Z lisp192: goes inside the nested member and also outside it
2017-01-01T17:55:41Z lisp192: http://paste.lisp.org/display/335465
2017-01-01T17:55:43Z lisp192: here's my code
2017-01-01T17:55:49Z lisp192: cons works but it's kinda cheating I feel
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2017-01-01T17:56:37Z phoe: What does that PROGN do?
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2017-01-01T17:56:56Z lisp192: Well I was trying to do those two functions sequentially
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2017-01-01T17:57:10Z phoe: You compute something and then discard its value.
2017-01-01T17:57:40Z lisp192: ah, never was much of a progn user :D
2017-01-01T17:57:51Z pseudonymous: phoe: it kind of works like a block delimiter ( { ... } ) in C-style languages, grouping a bunch of forms together. Some forms, like 'if' only take a limited number of forms (if <test> <success-form> <fail-form>)
2017-01-01T17:57:53Z lisp192: so how would I go on about?
2017-01-01T17:58:12Z lisp192: it*
2017-01-01T17:58:24Z phoe: pseudonymous: I know what PROGN does.
2017-01-01T17:58:31Z phoe: I don't know what that PROGN is supposed to mean in that context.
2017-01-01T17:59:04Z phoe: MEMBER is a pure function, it is called twice inside that progn, so one can just discard the first call altogether.
2017-01-01T18:00:11Z pseudonymous: phoe: oh, I see, my bad.
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2017-01-01T18:00:35Z phoe: lisp192: you will want to use EQL and not EQ, because of numbers and characters.
2017-01-01T18:00:52Z lisp192: Ah, yes
2017-01-01T18:01:08Z jackdaniel: for numbers you want to use =, not eql
2017-01-01T18:01:09Z phoe: lisp192: also, what do you want that function to do? In English, I mean.
2017-01-01T18:01:25Z lisp192: Well it checks whether A is included in list B
2017-01-01T18:01:25Z jackdaniel: (eql 0.0 0) -> nil
2017-01-01T18:01:26Z phoe: jackdaniel: the standard test for #'MEMBER is EQL and not =.
2017-01-01T18:01:30Z jackdaniel: (= 0.0 0) -> T
2017-01-01T18:01:33Z lisp192: it also checks nested lists for the member
2017-01-01T18:01:43Z lisp192: so if it finds a nested list
2017-01-01T18:01:54Z lisp192: it goes both inside it and continues onwards
2017-01-01T18:02:26Z phoe: lisp192: (SOME #'MEMBER (CAR B))
2017-01-01T18:02:38Z phoe: uh, wait
2017-01-01T18:02:40Z phoe: lisp192: (SOME #'MEMBER A (CAR B))
2017-01-01T18:02:52Z phoe: uh, wait, no
2017-01-01T18:02:53Z lisp192: No idea what that does
2017-01-01T18:02:55Z lisp192: can you explain?
2017-01-01T18:02:57Z phoe: clhs some
2017-01-01T18:02:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2017-01-01T18:03:17Z phoe: (some (lambda (x) (member a x)) (car b))
2017-01-01T18:04:16Z lisp192: I've never  used these things
2017-01-01T18:04:28Z lisp192: I mean it appears to check the nested one
2017-01-01T18:04:29Z phoe: basically, #'SOME applies a target predicate function to a list (or lists) of arguments and returns true if *any* of the result values returned true.
2017-01-01T18:04:32Z lisp192: but does it move forwards?
2017-01-01T18:05:04Z jackdaniel: it does not, it stops when meets T
2017-01-01T18:05:05Z lisp192: so car b is the x here?
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2017-01-01T18:05:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: woops, my bad
2017-01-01T18:05:14Z phoe: right
2017-01-01T18:05:26Z lisp192: do I just add another cdr b after it?
2017-01-01T18:05:47Z phoe: I sadly don't have the concentration to respond to your question right now
2017-01-01T18:05:54Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/335465#1 <- this is the thing that I quickly whipped up.
2017-01-01T18:06:04Z phoe: and I have to run. hope someone else has the time to answer you.
2017-01-01T18:06:33Z lisp192: Thank you for your
2017-01-01T18:06:33Z lisp192: help :)
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2017-01-01T18:07:33Z jackdaniel: lisp192: first of all indent your code properly
2017-01-01T18:07:47Z jackdaniel: second thing member is already defined function, you could change its name
2017-01-01T18:08:10Z jackdaniel: third – what is the expected result? you want to check, if A is one of the B tree leafs?
2017-01-01T18:08:17Z lisp192: yeah
2017-01-01T18:08:49Z lisp192: it's practice I don't need to pay attention to names and the like....
2017-01-01T18:09:14Z jackdaniel: since it won't compile in your repl, then you need to pay attention to that
2017-01-01T18:09:26Z jackdaniel: also keeping things indented properly is essential part of the practice
2017-01-01T18:09:34Z lisp192: true
2017-01-01T18:10:10Z jackdaniel: regarding traversing the tree, you may use subst for that to hack something working
2017-01-01T18:10:46Z jackdaniel: another option is to settle explicit block over map-tree (map-tree would be a higher-order function which applies your predicate, which has (return-from my-block T) when it encounters the required value
2017-01-01T18:10:56Z jackdaniel: )
2017-01-01T18:12:39Z jackdaniel: here http://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl
2017-01-01T18:13:08Z jackdaniel: (regarding subst-based slution)
2017-01-01T18:13:46Z jackdaniel: good luck, I'm off o/
2017-01-01T18:15:23Z pjb: lisp192: (subsetp a b)
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2017-01-01T18:15:41Z pjb: lisp192: (subsetp a b :test (function =)) if you only have numbers and want to treat 0 and 0.0 as equals.
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2017-01-01T18:16:39Z pjb: lisp192: however notice that subsetp tests of set inclusion.  The notion of "a list A included in a list B" is not defined, you would have to be more precise on what you mean here.
2017-01-01T18:16:57Z pjb: lisp192: and actually, if you formalized your meaning, you'd be very close to have the code of your function!
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2017-01-01T18:34:32Z lisp192: sorry had lunch
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2017-01-01T20:54:18Z foobar_: anybody using blackbird package?
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2017-01-01T20:58:41Z phoe: foobar_: ask your question!
2017-01-01T20:58:59Z foobar_: how do i extract the value from a promise?
2017-01-01T20:59:55Z foobar_: like wait on the promise ?
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2017-01-01T21:02:57Z phoe: foobar_: when you have a promise, then it returns some sort of value
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2017-01-01T21:03:15Z phoe: ...at some point of time.
2017-01-01T21:03:24Z foobar_: well i would like the value returned by the callback
2017-01-01T21:03:28Z foobar_: when it's done
2017-01-01T21:03:33Z phoe: where do you want it?
2017-01-01T21:03:45Z foobar_: in repl
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2017-01-01T21:03:58Z phoe: then there's no point in doing async
2017-01-01T21:03:58Z foobar_: it seems i can onl process inside event-loop?
2017-01-01T21:04:09Z phoe: just call the function synchronously
2017-01-01T21:04:11Z foobar_: phoe yes i know
2017-01-01T21:04:16Z phoe: your REPL will block
2017-01-01T21:04:22Z phoe: and finally it will return a value.
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2017-01-01T21:04:37Z phoe: REPL is not asynchronous on its own.
2017-01-01T21:04:54Z foobar_: maybe i am not phrasing it appropriately
2017-01-01T21:04:57Z phoe: you might want the callback to push the value somewhere or set some variable to that value.
2017-01-01T21:05:29Z phoe: but you cannot just make the value "appear" in the REPL. it's not how the basic Lisp REPL works.
2017-01-01T21:06:10Z foobar_: well i should be able to wait on the promise and return the value
2017-01-01T21:06:44Z phoe: that's why I say - don't do async if you want it like that.
2017-01-01T21:07:03Z phoe: If your promise is going to block on some function call like (FOO), then just type (FOO) in the REPL.
2017-01-01T21:07:19Z phoe: You will wait on the function call which will eventually return the value to you.
2017-01-01T21:08:32Z foobar_: i was thinking more of l-vars passing promises around
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2017-01-01T21:12:07Z phoe: foobar_: hm.
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2017-01-01T21:14:11Z foobar_: as i see the cl-async is like epoll/select
2017-01-01T21:14:30Z phoe: This is actually interesting.
2017-01-01T21:14:31Z foobar_: we are expected to chain promises all the way to the top
2017-01-01T21:14:38Z phoe: Once I have a promise object, I can check whether it has finished.
2017-01-01T21:14:52Z phoe: But I do not see a function that extracts a value from a finished promise.
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2017-01-01T21:20:16Z jurov: phoe: if you read the promise.lisp, there is accessor #'values
2017-01-01T21:20:23Z jurov: or you meant something else?
2017-01-01T21:20:37Z jurov: er.. #'promise-values , sorry
2017-01-01T21:21:13Z phoe: jurov: it's not in the documentation then.
2017-01-01T21:21:42Z phoe: "It [the promise class] currently has no public accessors"
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2017-01-01T21:21:58Z jurov: last time i complained about missing docs, i was told to donate :)
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2017-01-01T21:23:21Z foobar_: yeah
2017-01-01T21:23:31Z jurov: anyway, the intent was that you get the values handed to your callback(s) and where it is stored, is just implementation detail
2017-01-01T21:23:43Z foobar_: i just found out
2017-01-01T21:23:44Z jurov: *probably was
2017-01-01T21:23:56Z foobar_: it's useful to read the source anyway thanks :)
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2017-01-01T21:29:06Z phoe: jurov: :D
2017-01-01T21:29:07Z phoe: I see
2017-01-01T21:30:42Z foobar_: i believe the promise library just assumes that you are running it under a event loop
2017-01-01T21:32:01Z foobar_: i think it should provide a wait method on promise if someone uses it on a different backend
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2017-01-01T21:37:50Z devon: Happy 2017 everyone!
2017-01-01T21:38:07Z phoe: foobar_: it has a wait method
2017-01-01T21:38:11Z phoe: that's mentioned in the documentation
2017-01-01T21:38:23Z aeth: devon: happy make-year
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2017-01-01T21:39:32Z foobar_: phoe well that wait throws the value away
2017-01-01T21:40:13Z foobar_: something that waits for the promise to finish and return it's value
2017-01-01T21:40:44Z foobar_: devon: happy new year to you too :)
2017-01-01T21:42:31Z phoe: foobar_: ugh, well
2017-01-01T21:42:40Z phoe: looks like you'll need to construct some sort of a wait yourself
2017-01-01T21:43:15Z foobar_: sure; i was just talking about the library
2017-01-01T21:43:22Z foobar_: i will file an issue
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2017-01-01T21:56:14Z phoe: foobar_: and a pull request, if the documentation is available anywhere in its source code form.
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2017-01-01T22:29:03Z jurov: phoe: i have looked to my code which used blackbird and you need to make-instance of your promise class yourself, and when later filled you will call blackbird-base::finish on it, it will resolve all callbacks
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2017-01-01T22:31:17Z jurov: neither is described in the API
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2017-01-01T23:11:42Z mada: I'm thinking of learning a bit of lisp. What are some of the strenghts of lisp when compared to ML-like languages?
2017-01-01T23:12:27Z phoe: mada: Lisp is strong in general when it comes to brevity of code.
2017-01-01T23:12:56Z phoe: Repetitive parts of code are likely to be abstracted away with macros.
2017-01-01T23:13:23Z mada: phoe: I see, yeah I've read that somewhere, that you can get a lot of leverage with little code
2017-01-01T23:13:43Z phoe: The same trait makes it easy to bend Lisp to absorb programming paradigms. If Lisp does not support a programming paradigm you enjoy, you can implement it yourself.
2017-01-01T23:14:22Z mada: So it's common to develop your own "dsl" for whatever particular task you have
2017-01-01T23:14:46Z phoe: The interactivity is also a huge plus. You can develop your application incrementally, playing in the REPL first, then picking pieces of that and implementing a solid piece of code in a stationary file.
2017-01-01T23:15:04Z phoe: Well, you usually end up not inventing a DSL but instead extending Lisp.
2017-01-01T23:15:37Z mada: ah
2017-01-01T23:16:23Z phoe: And Lisp is very extensible. Whatever sort of function or syntactical construct you create, it melds with everything else.
2017-01-01T23:16:40Z phoe: Like, looks the same.
2017-01-01T23:16:43Z mada: and how's the debugging experience?
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2017-01-01T23:17:21Z mada: I mean: do you step through code, test small pieces in the repl?
2017-01-01T23:17:22Z phoe: CL specification has a trace function, an inspector of live objects, a debugger and means of stepping through the code.
2017-01-01T23:17:33Z phoe: Yep. But the interactivity makes debugging so much more fun.
2017-01-01T23:17:33Z mada: oh nice
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2017-01-01T23:18:07Z mada: I gather this is a Common Lisp channel, right? :)
2017-01-01T23:18:24Z phoe: The REPL is amazing for this sort of things, especially when you go with the mostly-functional style that's common in CL.
2017-01-01T23:18:28Z phoe: mada: ayup.
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2017-01-01T23:18:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: mada: If an uncaught "exception" is raised, you're placed into a debugger that will allow you to pick from several options. You can define new options in code (i.g. skip a malformed entry, enter in an entry by hand, kill servlet). These options will be available from the debugger or for 'catch' blocks to use. You can also redefine and reload a function while you're in the debugger and just hit 'Retry'.
2017-01-01T23:19:35Z mada: phoe: a big part of trying to get into lisp so far has been spending some time waddling through different lisps, trying to choose one. I get in the end they'll all be "similar"
2017-01-01T23:19:46Z phoe: mada: not really.
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2017-01-01T23:20:14Z phoe: CL is a language designed to craft actual useful applications for people and companies.
2017-01-01T23:20:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: The only times you should ever have to restart a program are if you're messing with a bad FFI interface, the implementation is broken, or fixing the internal state of the program is just too much harder than a clean restart.
2017-01-01T23:20:17Z mada: Petit_Dejeuner: that sounds very cool
2017-01-01T23:20:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: mada: Smalltalk has something similar.
2017-01-01T23:20:36Z phoe: Scheme is more or less an academical language.
2017-01-01T23:21:03Z mada: I'm mostly a python programmer, so I spend quite a bit of time in the repl. Didn't think that much interactivity was possible though
2017-01-01T23:21:04Z phoe: Clojure has been gaining a lot of attention as of late, but it tastes somewhat different due to its much more functional nature.
2017-01-01T23:22:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: mada: For instance, if I enter the expression (+ 1 a), I'm thrown into the debugger with an unbound variable error. It gives me the options to abort evaluation and retry. If I retry, the program will fail again, but if I define a variable 'a' and retry, the program will work.
2017-01-01T23:22:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: (Assuming 'a' was not already defined.)
2017-01-01T23:23:04Z phoe: what Petit_Dejeuner talks about has a lot of interesting consequences in multithreaded environments.
2017-01-01T23:23:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: "interesting"
2017-01-01T23:23:14Z phoe: A thread may fail and you are thrown into a debugger.
2017-01-01T23:23:22Z phoe: Woop, let's get another thread with a REPL!
2017-01-01T23:23:25Z phoe: We fix things up.
2017-01-01T23:23:50Z mada: this all sounds very cool. I'll definitely check common lisp then
2017-01-01T23:23:51Z phoe: We choose the retry option in the debugger. The retry option is something we've defined ourselves, so it does whatever we want.
2017-01-01T23:23:56Z mada: real world apps sound like a big plus.
2017-01-01T23:23:58Z phoe: Boom, the thread continues.
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2017-01-01T23:25:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: mada: Common Lisp is some what difficult to get into. You almost have to switch to a new editor unless you're already using Emacs and the system for creating libraries is pretty complicated.
2017-01-01T23:25:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: But besides that it's one of the easiest languages to learn.
2017-01-01T23:25:32Z mada: oh, I'm a vim guy  :/
2017-01-01T23:25:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: You don't have to use Emacs.
2017-01-01T23:25:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: And there are Vim setups.
2017-01-01T23:25:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: But it's not as common.
2017-01-01T23:25:54Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: haha!
2017-01-01T23:25:56Z phoe: spacemacs.
2017-01-01T23:26:20Z phoe: it's a distribution of Emacs that started out as a means of converting vim users to the proper religion, but ended up being just an all-awesome editor package.
2017-01-01T23:26:33Z phoe: ...and, uh
2017-01-01T23:26:43Z phoe: it made me convert to vim modes and leader key stuff and everything
2017-01-01T23:26:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Right, but that's still not Vim. So he has to switch. Which is a bit of a nussiance.
2017-01-01T23:26:52Z phoe: Ayup.
2017-01-01T23:26:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Might as well use Lisp Work's IDE now.
2017-01-01T23:27:01Z phoe: Or.
2017-01-01T23:27:05Z phoe: slimv.
2017-01-01T23:27:12Z phoe: which is what you've meant by vim setups.
2017-01-01T23:27:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: Probably, I'm not familliar with them.
2017-01-01T23:27:27Z phoe: anyway - if you want to keep your vim experience, ask around, there are people who use slimv.
2017-01-01T23:27:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Anyway, the editor thing isn't that bad, but it's just one more hurdle.
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2017-01-01T23:28:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: In Common Lisp you ALWAYS have an interactive mode open in another window while you develop, like irb or ipython.
2017-01-01T23:28:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: @ mada
2017-01-01T23:28:39Z mada: brb
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2017-01-01T23:44:18Z sjl uses Vim with Common Lisp, it works fine.
2017-01-01T23:46:56Z Cthulhux: why?
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2017-01-01T23:53:02Z aeth: To be fair, emacs is pretty terrible in 2016. And its everything-is-a-buffer does have some strange behavior come up with the mini-buffer sometimes. Lots of spamming C-g when that sort of thing comes up.
2017-01-01T23:53:40Z aeth: One example of how emacs is holding back CL is that certain SBCL error messages break paredit in the SLIME REPL because they imbalance the parentheses and then paredit quits working... because the prompt is in the same buffer as the stuff that should be read only above it.
2017-01-01T23:54:57Z aeth: A proper editor would probably break a REPL into two things, one for input and one for history and output, and avoid that particular edge case. But doing this in emacs would probably really mess with the buffer tiling, if it works.
2017-01-01T23:55:19Z hydan: aeth: that seems like a limitation of line representation than everything is a buffer. f.e. take a look at deuce from opendylan, it has that solved.
2017-01-01T23:55:20Z aeth: Because what you'd really want for a CL REPL is to have one "frame" split into two "sub-frames" of sorts.
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2017-01-01T23:57:02Z aeth: Imo you also probably want visual feedback when you C-k a read-only thing (possibly highlighting what just got C-k'ed, because it's not necessarily just a line thanks to things like paredit), and you'd want the REPL except what you're editing to be read-only.
2017-01-01T23:58:11Z hydan: aeth: more info here https://discuss.atom.io/t/the-deuce-editor-architecture/2218
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2017-01-01T23:59:12Z aeth: hydan: I think the reason GNU Emacs doesn't do many of those things is because emacs is a terminal application with a (poor) port to X... and there's just a handful of features like PDF reading thrown onto that port. It's not really designed to be graphical from the start.
2017-01-02T00:00:06Z aeth: A graphical emacs probably would have grown in bloat into a web browser by now.
2017-01-02T00:00:39Z hydan: aeth: "One day, a fool wanted to run Emacs in a GUI as a native GUI program. The rest is ChangeLog."
2017-01-02T00:01:11Z hydan: aeth: It is not helped by the fact that there are still people around who keep insisting on using it from terminal
2017-01-02T00:02:02Z aeth: I use emacs in a sysadmin style from the terminal, binding "emacs -nw" to "e" so I can be lazy in typing it. It launches extremely fast this way.
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2017-01-02T00:02:41Z aeth: I also use emacs as a full-featured CL IDE, with SLIME and run graphically (but with a menu bar and tool bar turned off... the graphics are mostly for nicer fonts/colors and a few other nice features)
2017-01-02T00:03:03Z aeth: (I do use it to e.g. open PDFs sometimes too)
2017-01-02T00:03:43Z aeth: I don't think you can really have the same application handle both roles properly. Terminals are too different from modern graphical applications (mainly because terminals are frozen in time... they don't *have* to be that different)
2017-01-02T00:04:43Z hydan: aeth: there are some that try new stuff. f.e. Terminology
2017-01-02T00:05:34Z aeth: For instance, the emacs menu bar is almost useless for people who want to be keyboard-driven. It doesn't even give the keyboard shortcuts for most things. It seems to be anywhere from about half to most. And you can't Alt+F, Alt+E, etc., navigate to get the rest of the items that have menu entries but no given shortcuts. (For obvious reasons!)
2017-01-02T00:06:07Z aeth: Worse, sometimes it doesn't show the shortcuts when I know there are shortcuts because I know the shortcut! It should at least show the M-x foo.
2017-01-02T00:07:04Z aeth: The main way I learned most applications was the menu bar... that's the main way to learn the keyboard navigation in a lot of them. But not emacs. It's basically useless in emacs imo.
2017-01-02T00:08:17Z aeth: hydan: I think the issue is that you need to do both a shell and a terminal... and you also need to be compatible with existing ones. It's a large task.
2017-01-02T00:09:48Z hydan: aeth: I work from eshell and have some stuff run in term buffer automatically, works fine 99.99999 of the time.
2017-01-02T00:10:18Z aeth: A sufficiently advanced REPL in a sufficiently advanced editor could probably replace a shell and a terminal, though. e.g. a shell-mode CL that auto-imports certain libraries and when in shell-mode inserts ()s around lines with no ()s, so e.g. "+ 1 1" becomes "(+ 1 1)"
2017-01-02T00:11:14Z hydan: aeth: my personal gripe with Emacs is the original issue you mentioned, that it is not that good of a graphical program. And that its no that good of an editor in 2017.
2017-01-02T00:11:51Z mada: ok I'm back. Thanks Petit_Dejeuner and phoe, I'll start by getting set up and reading up
2017-01-02T00:12:11Z hydan: aeth: Specifically when working with cl and seeing what was possible in Genera, it is hard not to get annoyed.
2017-01-02T00:12:24Z mada: how's "A gentle introduction to symbolic computation" to get started?
2017-01-02T00:12:45Z hydan: mada: If you already know programming pick up PCL+CLR
2017-01-02T00:12:48Z aeth: Hmm... You could probably even make #'l (launch), #'r (run), or #'e (exec) the function that execs shell commands and just make it a REPL with no confusing issue between native "ls" vs #'ls... So "r \"rm -r foo\"" or something
2017-01-02T00:12:58Z mada: hydan: I'm familiar with programming, and the basics of functional programming
2017-01-02T00:13:08Z mada: hydan: PCL+CLR?
2017-01-02T00:13:18Z mada: practical common lisp + ?
2017-01-02T00:13:25Z mada: common lisp.. reference?
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2017-01-02T00:13:32Z aeth: hydan: I guess my main issue here is that GNU Emacs can't replace the terminal even if it was substantially reworked (it won't be) because most of the time it's run in the terminal.
2017-01-02T00:13:34Z hydan: mada: then go with practical common lisp and commol lisp recipes
2017-01-02T00:13:59Z mada: good. Thank you
2017-01-02T00:16:26Z pjb: aeth: the criticism you're addressing at emacs is ill-addressed: they are clearly problems in slime or in paredit. What you should realize is that  such problems in any other editor you'd be stuck, but instead here you have the sources, and you can write the emacs lisp code to make it work exactly as you wish!
2017-01-02T00:17:28Z aeth: pjb: emacs has never been the only editor under a FOSS license
2017-01-02T00:17:43Z aeth: pjb: Also, the source doesn't matter when it's 30 years of spaghetti.
2017-01-02T00:17:50Z pjb: without recompiling the editor itself!
2017-01-02T00:18:14Z pjb: You don't need to know C to make emacs do what you wish.
2017-01-02T00:18:23Z hydan: aeth: You can try your hand and hemlock or deuce, they are much simpler, and f.e. deuce solves some of the UI interaction things you mentioned.
2017-01-02T00:18:44Z aeth: pjb: The fundamental emacs model of everything-as-buffer is broken, at least based on what emacs has become, which is an IDE and an application platform.
2017-01-02T00:19:01Z aeth: pjb: Everything should be a *frame*, but the frame isn't necessarily best represented as a buffer.
2017-01-02T00:19:19Z pjb: Now, code quality is indeed another problem and the lack eg. of a package system in emacs lisp are indeed valid criticism of emacs (emacs lisp actually).  But this is never what is complained about emacs.  People always complain about things written in emacs lisp, instead.
2017-01-02T00:19:32Z aeth: pjb: M-x package-list-packages
2017-01-02T00:19:58Z pjb: buffers are objects.  They have all kind of attributes (buffer local variables). They don't even need to be visible ever.
2017-01-02T00:20:18Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is a horrible language, too. Emacs Lisp is basically a pre-CL Lisp, which shouldn't be used for serious things ever.
2017-01-02T00:20:31Z aeth: There's a reason we're using CL and not FooLisp, because CL was monumentally better than its predecessors.
2017-01-02T00:20:35Z pjb: You find it strange that the root class of all the objects in the emacs lisp object system contain a buffer of text, but since we're talking about a text editor, it may not be so strange to have this design.
2017-01-02T00:20:38Z hydan: coincidentally the third party packages are the main reason Emacs is slow in 2017 :D
2017-01-02T00:20:39Z mada: sjl: how's your vim setup for CL?
2017-01-02T00:20:44Z mada: what's*
2017-01-02T00:21:03Z pjb: Now you're starting to address the real problems with emacs.
2017-01-02T00:21:14Z aeth: pjb: The thing is, emacs isn't just a text editor anymore.
2017-01-02T00:21:49Z aeth: emacs is a full IDE, with things like a REPL, and multiple ways to interface with git, and multiple ways to do a terminal or shell (M-x term, M-x shell, M-x eshell, and probably 2 more I forgot)
2017-01-02T00:21:51Z pjb: But we still have the same problem: where are the tens of millions of USD needed to make a sizeable team of developers rewrite everything in CL in a couple of years?
2017-01-02T00:22:39Z aeth: That's a pre-Linux way of thinking about things. One sufficiently motivated person will probably start the ball rolling on a budget of $0 at some point.
2017-01-02T00:22:48Z aeth: (I mean the Linux kernel.)
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2017-01-02T00:23:18Z hydan: aeth: I think you hit the hammer on the nail with the "application platform" mention. What a true alternative to Emacs would be is that and that foremost. and with McCLIM revival going on... who knows..
2017-01-02T00:23:19Z pjb: Start up a corporation, sell it for hundreds of millions to google, and instead of financing ubuntu, spacex or some other silly venture, finance CL developments!
2017-01-02T00:23:44Z pjb: aeth: of course, you can do like RMS. It'll take 30 years.
2017-01-02T00:24:38Z aeth: If Google did their due diligence, they'd never buy anything of mine. I've been a very vocal critic of advertisements. :-p
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2017-01-02T00:25:31Z aeth: And somewhere in their giant data centers they have that information :-p
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2017-01-02T00:26:34Z aeth: Advertisements are basically exploiting bugs in human software to drain those humans of money.
2017-01-02T00:26:50Z hydan: pjb: if I had a penny for every lisp hacker that tried that and failed, including you I believe :D
2017-01-02T00:27:14Z aeth: But you don't need hundreds of millions of money that was derived from exploiting software in order to make an editor.
2017-01-02T00:27:20Z pjb: well, don't say failed, say sidetracked, had to work on something else for a living, etc.
2017-01-02T00:27:28Z pjb: aeth: yes you need them.
2017-01-02T00:27:59Z aeth: pjb: I am making a game engine because every self-respecting game engine eventually grows to the point where it has an IDE bundled with the engine.
2017-01-02T00:28:16Z pjb: To get a MVP of an editor that can convince users to switch from emacs (and all its third party libraries), you need to invest a lot of work.
2017-01-02T00:28:56Z hydan: pjb: still, you'd have way more fun writing something new, without terminal and all other limitations don't you think
2017-01-02T00:29:11Z hydan: pjb: and if you have a good core, you could start a chain reaction
2017-01-02T00:29:26Z pjb: I'd say you will need 20 developers over 3 or 4 years minimum, and that will cost you (* 20 4 200000) USD 16 million only in salaries. You will have to add all the overhead, the managers, the hardware etc.
2017-01-02T00:29:40Z hydan: pjb: didn't take much convincing for people to start writing stuff for all those new crappy editors.
2017-01-02T00:29:55Z aeth: pjb: *Or* I can make a niche editor that just happens to do many of the same things that emacs can do. The niche I'm going to be aiming at is tying it with a game engine. People do use IDEs when they're, um, "encouraged" to use those IDEs, which then creates a nice starting base of users.
2017-01-02T00:30:42Z aeth: It just so happens that a lot of the additions that would make it useful for making games would also make it useful for a general, graphical platform.
2017-01-02T00:30:50Z pjb: hydan: what are you talking about I must have downloaded and tried only one or two of them, perhaps spent 20 minutes in all in those other editors EVER!
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2017-01-02T00:31:31Z pjb: aeth: for example, I've been told there's a very nice niche editor named Xcode to do stuff for iOS and MacOSX.  I'm still using emacs and makefiles with xcodebuild…
2017-01-02T00:31:41Z pjb: Even the xcodeprojects, I generate them with xcodeproj.rb!
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2017-01-02T00:31:54Z hydan: pjb: exactly, they are crap, yet they have giant communities already writing all kinds of extensions, including many replacements for emacs features.
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2017-01-02T00:32:18Z aeth: pjb: Yes, but the hardest part with an editor is getting a community to use that editor... and the easiest way to get a community is to strongly encourage its use for a certain niche, usually an application platform of some sort.
2017-01-02T00:32:22Z pjb: hydan: well, have you any idea how many developpers Apple's paying to work on Xcode?
2017-01-02T00:32:32Z aeth: The hardest part is *not* engineering the editor. It's getting users.
2017-01-02T00:32:45Z pjb: And you don't have any spreadsheet, tetris or doctor in Xcode!
2017-01-02T00:32:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: So New Jersey approach?
2017-01-02T00:33:06Z pjb: Exactly!
2017-01-02T00:33:14Z aeth: Any bad editor will eventually grow in bloat over time to cover every feature. (Look at emacs, for instance.)
2017-01-02T00:33:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: The horror.
2017-01-02T00:33:15Z hydan: pjb: I don't think that is a fair comparison.. I am talking atom, vs code, sublime etc.
2017-01-02T00:33:19Z pjb: And to get emacs users, you will need to invest a lot!
2017-01-02T00:33:35Z aeth: The editors that aren't bloated are the editors that have died young due to lack of interest.
2017-01-02T00:33:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: If the base is good, then there's no need to grow vertically.
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2017-01-02T00:34:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: Emacs has a good base, so it doesn't have layers on top of it.
2017-01-02T00:34:38Z aeth: pjb: I don't really care about attracting emacs users. I just want an environment where I can write CL with emacs-style keyboard-first key-chord-oriented programming. Not supporting the terminal will lose the interest of more than half of the emacs users, anyway.
2017-01-02T00:34:54Z pjb: aeth: this already exists: Hemlock.
2017-01-02T00:35:11Z aeth: I hope to eventually bloat my game engine enough so that I can start editing my game engine in my game engine.
2017-01-02T00:35:15Z pjb: with a very nice implementation on Cocoa: Clozure CL.app.
2017-01-02T00:35:30Z hydan: didn't hemlock have a terminal support as well, at least in the past
2017-01-02T00:35:53Z pjb: It has, and X11.  But Hemlock on X11 is not nice at all, compared to GNU emacs.
2017-01-02T00:36:20Z pjb: aeth: but see how people still want terminal support :-)
2017-01-02T00:36:29Z aeth: And that's saying something because emacs still feels like X was an afterthought in 2017.
2017-01-02T00:36:35Z aeth: So Hemlock must be *really* bad.
2017-01-02T00:36:49Z aeth: Although to be fair, emacs on X has improved a lot in the last 5 years or so.
2017-01-02T00:36:56Z pjb: and it's a good thing: we can use 99% of the emacs features in the terminal.
2017-01-02T00:37:02Z aeth: Not too long ago, emacs felt like it was right out of 1995.
2017-01-02T00:37:26Z pjb: I wouldn't mind if it felt like 1962: it'd be what we'll have in 2462! :-)
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2017-01-02T00:38:18Z aeth: pjb: The problem is that the terminal itself is a terrible, messy hack that was frozen in time decades ago with only a handful of things added on top since then, such as mouse support and more colors (which is barely used and never used properly ime)
2017-01-02T00:38:19Z pjb: aeth: look is purely fashion, something Apple promotes to sell new variants of their products twice a year.
2017-01-02T00:38:30Z hydan: pjb: and it will still be slow, because x11 in a browser in a vm in a browser in a vm in a browser by then most likely
2017-01-02T00:39:04Z pjb: aeth: nope, the terminal is a perfect solution to a problem we still have today: perform I/O on a device that is far from the CPU, and with a bandwidth that is not always GB/s.
2017-01-02T00:39:30Z hydan: pjb: honestly, what is wrong with running terminal from emacs
2017-01-02T00:39:44Z aeth: pjb: The REPL is the perfect solution, although CL is an imperfect implementation of the perfect solution, so I still have to mix REPL use with sh use, at least for now.
2017-01-02T00:39:49Z pjb: hydan: running emacs in a terminal is perfectly good.
2017-01-02T00:40:14Z pjb: hydan: you can: chsh /usr/bin/clisp
2017-01-02T00:40:30Z pjb: Given how bad bash is, you should actually.
2017-01-02T00:40:40Z hydan: pjb: why would anyone do that when you can use eshell?
2017-01-02T00:40:55Z pjb: because eshell runs bash!
2017-01-02T00:41:04Z pjb: or does it?
2017-01-02T00:41:12Z hydan: pjb: shell does, eshell is elisp shell
2017-01-02T00:41:33Z hydan: pjb: term, ansi-term, shell, eshell... easy to get lost
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2017-01-02T00:42:24Z hydan: pjb: I personally use eshell for most stuff and term for some escape sequence heavy stuff, have not felt a need to run a separate terminal in years.
2017-01-02T00:42:27Z aeth: pjb: For one, I want a terminal that is graphical. That is, I want to be able to "cat foo.png" and see a PNG instead of having to inefficiently "xdg-open foo.png" and wait for a bloated application to load (and hope that GIMP didn't somehow become the default again, because it's much slower and I don't need to edit it)
2017-01-02T00:42:41Z aeth: iirc, there is *one* obscure image format that's not used today that you can in fact cat in a normal(ish) terminal
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2017-01-02T00:43:54Z aeth: The GIMP issue is actually another issue... Unix doesn't really distinguish between editors and viewers, and viewers are usually much more lightweight. A proper Superemacs would be able to distinguish between when I want to edit and when I want to view.
2017-01-02T00:43:54Z pjb: Yes, but images on a 300 b/s line are no good.
2017-01-02T00:44:20Z hydan: pjb: are you connecting to some rural police station? :p
2017-01-02T00:45:02Z aeth: pjb: A smart shell should know when it can display an image and when it cannot, based on the circumstances. If ssh is being used, it should know it can't... and it should by default loudly error rather than display the useless binary.
2017-01-02T00:45:21Z pjb: Yeah, right!
2017-01-02T00:46:15Z pjb: Anyways, time to go.
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2017-01-02T00:47:31Z aeth: emacs seems to know when it can show a PDF and when it can't (although when it can't iirc it just shows the raw contents of the PDF)
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2017-01-02T00:49:16Z aeth: If I want to inline draw or display an image in my CL REPL, I want to do that. And if running it in a terminal, obviously it won't work. I think racket lets you do graphical stuff within the REPL?
2017-01-02T00:50:01Z hydan: aeth: well, now you are back to your wishlist :) time to get coding!
2017-01-02T00:50:02Z aeth: Although I could actually probably ssh -X and run the graphical interactive REPL, at least if I was on a LAN or something.
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2017-01-02T01:00:19Z aeth: hydan: text/fonts are probably the things holding back a CL editor built on cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl rather than clx or a C/C++ toolkit.
2017-01-02T01:01:23Z aeth: I'd say text/fonts, physics, and networking were the weak spots of the CL side of the #lispgames ecosystem in 2016.
2017-01-02T01:02:02Z Zhivago: Perfect for smell based games.
2017-01-02T01:02:23Z Zhivago: Rather, smell based solo campaigns.
2017-01-02T01:02:49Z aeth: Well I suppose you can make a 2D platformer with what's there, since you can just take the text you need and make them bitmaps or something and for physics, you don't really want elaborate physics in a 2D platformer because that messes with the feel of the controls.
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2017-01-02T04:54:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-02T06:04:52Z farzad: anyone knows about a reporting library in common lisp? im looking for something like Pentaho or Jasper Reports for java or Crystal Reports for C#
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2017-01-02T06:17:51Z Fade: ected
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2017-01-02T09:46:32Z krwq: hey, i'm having some problem with log4slime. when i put something which loads log4slime inside my .sbclrc (i.e. quickload asdf system with dep on log4slime) and run slime it doesn't print anything when running from a thread. when running directly from console it does print properly on stdout or typing log:info directly in slime's repl works too. when commenting out line which loads log4slime it works again after res
2017-01-02T09:46:32Z krwq: tarting emacs
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2017-01-02T12:32:43Z `JRG: hello lispers
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2017-01-02T12:34:16Z jackdaniel: o/
2017-01-02T12:36:38Z `JRG: I have a little question for you all, don't you think that if by changing the EOL used in a file (e.g. via unix2dos) the file does not correctly compile anymore that's a tiny violation of the principle of least astonishment?
2017-01-02T12:36:55Z `JRG: what's your opinion
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2017-01-02T12:37:49Z flip214_: `JRG: well, each system has its EOL definition... if you violate that, you might need to tell every program using such a file about this standards violation.
2017-01-02T12:37:58Z phadthai: I wonder if it's also the case on windows, where it could be considered strange
2017-01-02T12:38:00Z flip214_: and most won't help you to work around that...
2017-01-02T12:38:19Z flip214_: that's why tar, zip, etc. have a "text mode" for extraction, to get the local EOL
2017-01-02T12:38:32Z phadthai: true
2017-01-02T12:39:11Z jackdaniel: either way I think that while characters shouldn't influence compilation (unless we talk about languages like python)
2017-01-02T12:39:19Z jackdaniel: s/while characters/white characters/
2017-01-02T12:39:30Z `JRG: true
2017-01-02T12:39:35Z `JRG: that's my point exactly
2017-01-02T12:39:43Z jackdaniel: `JRG: what is your CL implementation?
2017-01-02T12:39:46Z `JRG: problem is we have ~ newline
2017-01-02T12:39:51Z phadthai: yes I don't see why ignoring extra CR at end of lines could hurt anything in this case
2017-01-02T12:40:04Z `JRG: sbcl
2017-01-02T12:40:32Z jackdaniel: and it doesn't work on which OS? what is EOL atm?
2017-01-02T12:40:41Z `JRG: quicklisp.lisp is full of those ~#\Newline format directives
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2017-01-02T12:41:02Z `JRG: and my git setup *loves* to convert LF files to CRLF
2017-01-02T12:41:12Z `JRG: actually breaking quicklisp.lisp
2017-01-02T12:41:57Z `JRG: I would expect #\Newline to be CRLF under Windows
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2017-01-02T12:42:03Z jackdaniel: weird stuff indeed – maybe ask #sbcl? there may be some important rationale behind this
2017-01-02T12:42:15Z `JRG: but apparently it is not so with sbcl
2017-01-02T12:42:21Z jackdaniel: behavior which we don't know
2017-01-02T12:42:40Z `JRG: that makes sense, thanks
2017-01-02T12:45:13Z jackdaniel: btw, didn't know about POLA was defined, thanks
2017-01-02T12:45:18Z jackdaniel: s/about/that/
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2017-01-02T12:49:46Z scymtym: `JRG: the inability to decode CRLF as #\Newline is a shortcoming of SBCL's current external-format implementation. there is some work-in-progress to improve the situation but nothing finished yet
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2017-01-02T12:53:23Z `JRG: scymtym: thanks
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2017-01-02T14:43:03Z phoe_: I have a function declared like (DEFUN FN (&KEY FOO BAR BAZ QUUX ...) ...)
2017-01-02T14:43:34Z jackdaniel: (fn :... 3) ;-> 3
2017-01-02T14:43:48Z phoe_: I want to provide default values for the &KEY arguments, but I do not want them to show inside the minibuffer when I make a call of that function
2017-01-02T14:44:09Z phoe_: Mostly because the default values are either too long or they're (error "..." ...)
2017-01-02T14:44:29Z phoe_: Is there any recommended style or macro for taking care of such default values outside the lambda-list?
2017-01-02T14:44:54Z phoe_: Like, a series of (UNLESS FOO (SETF FOO ...)) in the beginning of the function?
2017-01-02T14:45:06Z phoe_: This does the job, but looks rather ugly.
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2017-01-02T14:46:23Z beach: phoe_: You could use &rest arguments, and then call a local function like (apply local-fun arguments).  The local function would have the default values.
2017-01-02T14:46:42Z beach: That way would also get the SUPPLIED-P parameters right.
2017-01-02T14:46:43Z jackdaniel: (defun yyy (&rest args &key bah) (apply 'xxx args))
2017-01-02T14:46:59Z jackdaniel: (defun xxx (&key (bah 4)) …)
2017-01-02T14:47:03Z flip214_: phoe_: or write a macro to do a series of  `(LET ((foo (or foo ,default))) ,@ body)
2017-01-02T14:47:10Z sjl: unfortunately that also loses the names of the keyword args in the lambda-list
2017-01-02T14:47:19Z beach: Why?
2017-01-02T14:47:34Z sjl: the lambda-list is now (&rest args) instead of (&key foo bar ...)
2017-01-02T14:47:37Z jackdaniel: phoe_: see my ↑ paste
2017-01-02T14:47:43Z phoe_: jackdaniel: yes, I see.
2017-01-02T14:47:45Z beach: sjl: What makes you think that?
2017-01-02T14:47:46Z sjl: the lambda-list of the function the user is intended to call
2017-01-02T14:47:49Z jackdaniel: sjl: it may be (&rest args &key a b c)
2017-01-02T14:48:07Z sjl: oh you're including the &key AND the &rest
2017-01-02T14:48:24Z phoe_: shouldn't &KEY come before &REST?
2017-01-02T14:48:31Z jackdaniel: no
2017-01-02T14:48:33Z phoe_: oh, wait
2017-01-02T14:48:40Z phoe_: this way &REST captures the key args.
2017-01-02T14:48:42Z beach: sjl: Of course.  Otherwise, you wouldn't get the keyword arguments.
2017-01-02T14:49:11Z beach: phoe_: Standard trick.
2017-01-02T14:49:23Z phoe_: beach: I saw it once or twice, but I never got to use it on my own.
2017-01-02T14:49:24Z jackdaniel: phoe_: declare all key arguments as ignored and apply args
2017-01-02T14:49:31Z jackdaniel: to have everything square
2017-01-02T14:49:34Z phoe_: jackdaniel: ooh
2017-01-02T14:49:38Z phoe_: nifty
2017-01-02T14:49:39Z phoe_: I see.
2017-01-02T14:50:01Z beach: phoe_: The AMOP is full of that kind of stuff.
2017-01-02T14:50:16Z phoe_: beach: I'll read it as time allows, yes.
2017-01-02T14:50:31Z jackdaniel has to buy amop some day
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2017-01-02T14:50:45Z beach: I learned a lot of such tricks from 1. the CLIM II specification and 2. the AMOP.
2017-01-02T14:52:49Z phoe_: CLIM II, yet another book to read.
2017-01-02T14:53:06Z jackdaniel: clim II isn't a book
2017-01-02T14:53:12Z phoe_: uh
2017-01-02T14:53:21Z phoe_: I meant the spec
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2017-01-02T15:19:28Z phoe_: jackdaniel: beach: does this &REST ... &KEY ... thing also work with DEFMETHOD INITIALIZE-INSTANCE?
2017-01-02T15:20:11Z phoe_: Like, can I declare a method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE that will take &rest args &key foo bar baz, and I can ignore all the keys and apply a function on args?
2017-01-02T15:20:12Z jackdaniel: why wouldn't it?
2017-01-02T15:20:33Z phoe_: jackdaniel: I'm being cautious when stepping on CLOS grounds.
2017-01-02T15:20:50Z jackdaniel: I think that a good strategy is to try things if they work ;-)
2017-01-02T15:21:05Z phoe_: :P
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2017-01-02T15:22:31Z jackdaniel: regarding defmethod (initialize-instance already has it), don't forget to declare &allow-other-keys in defgeneric
2017-01-02T15:22:47Z jackdaniel: for instance (defgeneric foo (a b &rest args &key &allow-other-keys))
2017-01-02T15:23:30Z jackdaniel: if you plan to allow extending key-arg set
2017-01-02T15:27:55Z phoe_: jackdaniel: I remember that one.
2017-01-02T15:27:57Z phoe_: thanks!
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2017-01-02T15:58:33Z Posterdati: hi
2017-01-02T15:58:53Z Posterdati: did anyone solved the static vector problem with antik?
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2017-01-02T16:03:26Z Posterdati: :(
2017-01-02T16:08:51Z H4ns: phoe: i would generally try to avoid &allow-other-keys - if you need to call a function with an argument list that includes keys which the called function might not know, you can also use the universal :allow-other-keys argument when _calling_ the function.  that way, you retain the checks for invalid keyword arguments.
2017-01-02T16:09:57Z beach: I second that.  Use &allow-other-keys only when it is absolutely necessary.  It is error prone in that it no longer catches typos in keyword arguments.
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2017-01-02T18:08:41Z phoe: beach: I only use it where required, so basically, in DEFMETHOD INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
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2017-01-02T18:18:55Z emaczen: How can I get the reader to evaluate (read-from-string "(a . b)") ==> (A |.| B)
2017-01-02T18:19:22Z emaczen: I tried set-macro-character nad just returning '\. from the lambda, but that didn't work...
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2017-01-02T18:21:13Z Bike: i think dot syntax is an intrinsic part of how ( works.
2017-01-02T18:21:13Z jackdaniel: modifying reader to treat . differently won't be portable. You need to do something like replacing all standalone "." to some gensym in the string
2017-01-02T18:21:19Z jackdaniel: then read from it
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2017-01-02T18:21:35Z jackdaniel: and after that replace all matching gensymed symbols with |.|
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2017-01-02T18:22:57Z jackdaniel: (replace-sym '|.| *my-gensym* (read-from-string (replace-string (symbol-name *my-gensym*) "." my-string)))
2017-01-02T18:23:03Z jackdaniel: in pseudocode
2017-01-02T18:23:37Z jurov: or convert the cons to list with |.| in the middle after reading?
2017-01-02T18:24:25Z jackdaniel: you don't know if there is dot, I think that he expects (read-from-string "(a b)") to return (a b)
2017-01-02T18:24:28Z pjb: emaczen: what Bike said means that you need to write a reader macro for #\( !
2017-01-02T18:25:25Z Bike: maybe also backquote. dunno.
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2017-01-02T18:28:08Z jurov: it can be combined, no? wrap reader macro for #\( , if the original macro returns cons (not list), fix it
2017-01-02T18:29:55Z jackdaniel: "(1 2 . nil)" and "(1 2)" – how will you differentiate these two *after* reading?
2017-01-02T18:30:34Z jurov: I will document it as corner case.
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2017-01-02T18:31:43Z jackdaniel: and declare, that your method breaks on such case?
2017-01-02T18:32:12Z jurov: Yes. In keeping with "try the simplest thing that could work" principle.
2017-01-02T18:32:28Z emaczen: Okay, I think I'm just going to replace symbols like jackdaniel said originally
2017-01-02T18:32:36Z jurov: Depends on what emaczen is going to read, of course.
2017-01-02T18:33:10Z jackdaniel was whispering "pick mine, pick mine" for good 2 minutes already \o/
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2017-01-02T18:33:52Z jurov: lol
2017-01-02T18:34:00Z pjb: jackdaniel: |.| is a perfectly good symbol, there's no need to go thru intermediary gensymed symbol.
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2017-01-02T18:35:00Z jurov: Is it desirable that reading (a . ( b . ( c . nil))) yields something completely different than (a b c)?
2017-01-02T18:35:18Z jackdaniel: yes, but I'm not sure if changing reader macro for #\( will work (I'm not saying it won't, I'm just not sure if its conformant, you know spec way better than I)
2017-01-02T18:38:18Z Bike: well you can do whatever the hell you want if it's your own readtable
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2017-01-02T20:50:03Z wondaria: hey lispers! I know, you are clever. Could you help me please to invent the name for IT company? Thanks.
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2017-01-02T21:24:52Z _death: Microsoft
2017-01-02T21:25:35Z aeth: For Microcomputer Software? Brilliant.
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2017-01-02T21:36:58Z JuanDaugherty wonders about wondaria
2017-01-02T21:37:24Z JuanDaugherty: "microcomputer" must sound funny to the average doer of computer programming of this time
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2017-01-02T21:41:10Z Bike: yeah, sizewise we're on nanocomputers, so nanosoft
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2017-01-02T21:41:34Z Bike: but that seems to taken by a company in karachi, so i guess stick with microsoft.
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2017-01-02T21:50:14Z jurov: i'd say more like yottasoft
2017-01-02T21:50:29Z jurov: that's where we're heading
2017-01-02T21:55:45Z Bike: you want to make a transistor smaller than an electron?
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2017-01-02T22:13:32Z pjb: emaczen: sorry for the delay, I've been sidetracked, but here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/335564
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2017-01-03T01:33:53Z antonv: who knows where uffi sources are located?
2017-01-03T01:33:59Z antonv: uffi.b9.com doesn't work
2017-01-03T01:34:30Z Bike: uffi is obsolete, i think
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2017-01-03T01:34:44Z Bike: but uffi.kpe.io seems to have it
2017-01-03T01:34:44Z antonv: quicklisp-projects refer to kmr-git uffi - you ned to kmr-git address
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2017-01-03T01:35:25Z antonv: Bike: yes, outdated but I need to check something. Thanks for the link.
2017-01-03T01:36:05Z Xach: uffi is still used for a few projects
2017-01-03T01:36:35Z loke: Hello Xach!
2017-01-03T01:36:41Z Xach: hi loke
2017-01-03T01:36:42Z loke: Happy new year all
2017-01-03T01:36:48Z Xach: and also with you
2017-01-03T01:37:00Z loke: Xach: You going to ELS?
2017-01-03T01:37:11Z Xach: loke: Not unless something extraordinary happens
2017-01-03T01:38:21Z loke: I see.
2017-01-03T01:38:40Z antonv: Xach, here - https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/qlc-meta/blacklist.txt - we read:
2017-01-03T01:38:51Z antonv:  prefer the real UFFI to CFFI's UFFI - some things just don't compile with it.
2017-01-03T01:39:10Z antonv: What if I checkout CFFI to quicklisp/local-projects - what UFFI is used?
2017-01-03T01:39:32Z antonv: The real one or CFFI's UFFI?
2017-01-03T01:40:07Z Xach: antonv: if cffi has an uffi.asd, it is cffi's
2017-01-03T01:40:42Z antonv: cffi/uffi-compat/uffi.asd
2017-01-03T01:40:44Z Xach: (ql:where-is-system "uffi") will show the path
2017-01-03T01:40:52Z Xach: that tells where asdf finds it
2017-01-03T01:41:03Z antonv: ok. how to disable that - remove the .asd file?
2017-01-03T01:41:07Z Xach: antonv: yes.
2017-01-03T01:42:10Z loke: Xach: I thought there was a SOW for the QL work you'd be doing for the fundraiser money? I was sure with was on the QL web page, but I can't find it. Was I dreaming?
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2017-01-03T01:42:33Z Xach: loke: there is the talk i gave in london outlining the out-of-beta tasks
2017-01-03T01:42:41Z Xach: loke: there is no formal SOW though
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2017-01-03T01:43:40Z loke: Xach: IIRC, one of the points was to make sure the downloads are signed, correct?
2017-01-03T01:44:26Z Xach: loke: yes - well, a file of cryptographic digests is signed, and used to validate downloaded archives.
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2017-01-03T01:46:03Z loke: Xach: "is", as in: "it already exists"?
2017-01-03T01:46:45Z Xach: loke: no, "is", as in, "this is the design"
2017-01-03T01:46:51Z loke: Ah :-)
2017-01-03T01:48:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: One day we'll be cool.
2017-01-03T01:48:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Roswel will have more scripts than CPAN.
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2017-01-03T01:48:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quicklisp will have cryptographic hashes.
2017-01-03T01:48:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...and the standard will be updated to be more like Ruby/C++
2017-01-03T01:48:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Victory.
2017-01-03T01:49:36Z antonv: Xach, after removing the .asd file  (ql:where-is-system "uffi") fails with "Failed to find the TRUENAME of /home/testgrid/quicklisp-asdf3/local-projects/cffi/uffi-compat/uffi.asd: No such file or directory"
2017-01-03T01:49:52Z antonv: The SBCL was started _after_ file was removed
2017-01-03T01:50:00Z antonv: someting needs to be reindexed?
2017-01-03T01:51:24Z Xach: antonv: yes, (ql:register-local-projects) will reset the index
2017-01-03T01:52:17Z antonv: ok (I already fixed that by moving cffi to other directory, starting SBCL once, then moving cffi back to local-projects and starting SBCL again)
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2017-01-03T02:13:11Z antonv: who knows how to build uiop from asdf source repository?
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2017-01-03T06:04:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-01-03T06:11:29Z H4ns: good morning beach!
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2017-01-03T07:32:50Z phoe: Morning!
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2017-01-03T07:49:27Z beach: Hello phoe!
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2017-01-03T08:03:18Z phoe: I'll talk more once I change locations.
2017-01-03T08:03:21Z phoe: Brb.
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2017-01-03T09:04:22Z flip214_: Running ABCL and calling (ql:quickload :hunchentoot) gives me "Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB." even though the .jar is in the current directory.
2017-01-03T09:04:31Z flip214_: how would I point ABCL to the right location?
2017-01-03T09:06:29Z flip214_: should I extend ASDF:*CENTRAL-REGISTRY*?
2017-01-03T09:06:38Z vtomole: Try that
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2017-01-03T09:10:28Z flip214_: no, doesn't work
2017-01-03T09:11:01Z jackdaniel: maybe try (require 'abcl-contrib) from repl
2017-01-03T09:11:16Z jackdaniel: asdf may get the dependency resolving wrong
2017-01-03T09:11:48Z jackdaniel: (and, after that, (ql:quickload :hunchentoot))
2017-01-03T09:11:51Z flip214_: jackdaniel: that's what I tried right now
2017-01-03T09:12:02Z jackdaniel: with what result?
2017-01-03T09:12:08Z flip214_: Failed to require  ABCL-CONTRIB because 'Java exception 'java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: No applicable method named getURLs found in java.lang.ClassLoader or jdk.internal.loader.ClassLoaders$AppClassLoader'.'
2017-01-03T09:12:17Z flip214_: #<THREAD "interpreter" {300F8555}>: Debugger invoked on condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR
2017-01-03T09:12:20Z flip214_:   Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB.
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2017-01-03T09:13:22Z jackdaniel: then, maybe, try (load "/path/to/abcl-contrib.jar")
2017-01-03T09:13:32Z jackdaniel: huh, looks like too much commas
2017-01-03T09:13:38Z jackdaniel: s/much/many/
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2017-01-03T09:14:48Z flip214_: Loadable FASL not found for '#P"/..."' in '#P"jar:file:/.../abcl-contrib.jar!/abcl-contrib._"'
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2017-01-03T09:15:17Z flip214_: never mind, thanks; I guess easye or ehuelsmann will put me on the right track.
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2017-01-03T09:18:12Z vtomole: Forgot to wish you a happy new year jaskdaniel, happy new year!
2017-01-03T09:18:19Z vtomole: *jackdaniel
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2017-01-03T09:18:54Z jackdaniel: thank you, same to you :-)
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2017-01-03T09:20:31Z vtomole: jackdaniel: The calling to hack scheme has been too strong on this new year
2017-01-03T09:22:05Z jackdaniel: I was lately reading eulisp specification – very interesting
2017-01-03T09:27:07Z vtomole: Thought it was a new implementation, looks like it's a dead one.
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2017-01-03T10:34:56Z KZiemian: Hello World!
2017-01-03T10:35:13Z beach: Hello KZiemian.
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2017-01-03T10:35:41Z KZiemian: I lost touch with a lisp world for a while, can someone tell me what important thing are going now? If any?
2017-01-03T10:35:54Z KZiemian: I apologized for my english
2017-01-03T10:36:03Z beach: Depends on your domain of interest.
2017-01-03T10:36:12Z loke: KZiemian: How long were you out?>
2017-01-03T10:36:24Z KZiemian: 6 monts or so
2017-01-03T10:36:40Z edgar-rft: that's not long in Lisp terms
2017-01-03T10:37:07Z KZiemian: but 6 month ago I bearly understend what happend then
2017-01-03T10:37:10Z jackdaniel: KZiemian: McCLIM development has been resumed, new releases of many implementation has been performed etc
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2017-01-03T10:37:13Z loke: KZiemian: well, then the biggest news is that the QL fundraiser was successful, and Xach now has a stack of cash to spend on developing the security model in Quicklisp.
2017-01-03T10:37:24Z loke: Which is great news.
2017-01-03T10:37:28Z jackdaniel: ↑ :)
2017-01-03T10:37:51Z KZiemian: What mean ,, ↑ :)''?
2017-01-03T10:38:09Z beach: KZiemian: It means "what loke said".
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2017-01-03T10:38:16Z jackdaniel: hm, if you have UTF-8 capable terminal, you should see an arrow pointing above my sentence and a smile
2017-01-03T10:38:32Z jackdaniel: and it means what beach said
2017-01-03T10:38:44Z loke: → jackdaniel ←
2017-01-03T10:39:06Z loke: 𝆹𝅥𝅯
2017-01-03T10:39:09Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: yes I have, but after yesterday I aware of jokes for returning man
2017-01-03T10:39:21Z phoe_: KZiemian: hello!
2017-01-03T10:39:35Z KZiemian: phoe_: Hello!
2017-01-03T10:39:49Z phoe_: welcome back to the round side of the world.
2017-01-03T10:39:50Z beach: KZiemian: I have not trace of your nick in the logs.  Did you change it?
2017-01-03T10:39:58Z KZiemian: phoe_: I can't find you since end of Ocotober
2017-01-03T10:40:11Z jackdaniel: beach: KZiemian was at last ELS – I believe you have talked
2017-01-03T10:40:20Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-01-03T10:40:23Z KZiemian: beach: on this channel I'm first time
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2017-01-03T10:40:28Z beach: Got it.
2017-01-03T10:40:29Z phoe_: KZiemian: my mail is just where it was. :P
2017-01-03T10:41:06Z KZiemian: phoe_: but lisp-pl don't see to work properly ;)
2017-01-03T10:41:45Z phoe_: KZiemian: you mean the mailgroup? It's had some issues, yes.
2017-01-03T10:42:03Z KZiemian: phoe_: yes I mean mailgroup
2017-01-03T10:42:13Z phoe_: Fsck. We'll need to fix it.
2017-01-03T10:42:23Z KZiemian: phoe_: jackdaniel send me here
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2017-01-03T12:52:36Z hjudt: in sbcl, is there any way to get from a (get-internal-real-time) to a universal time without having to do an extra get-universal-time?
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2017-01-03T13:01:52Z Xach: hjudt: I don't think so. But you only have to do it once per session, not once every time.
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2017-01-03T13:08:52Z axion: What would be an efficient way to check if a string contains only character codes in the range of #x20 to #x7e?
2017-01-03T13:11:37Z Xach: axion: (every (lambda (c) (<= #x20 c #x7e)) string) perhaps.
2017-01-03T13:12:13Z Xach: oops, throw in a char-code in <=
2017-01-03T13:12:26Z axion: Nice, that seems like a good approach. Thanks
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2017-01-03T13:18:40Z phoe_: https://i.sli.mg/D8ZwNK.png
2017-01-03T13:18:45Z phoe_: Is this piece of code properly indented?
2017-01-03T13:19:04Z phoe_: The body block of UNWIND-PROTECT is indented with 5 spaces. It surprised me, since I expected the standard 4.
2017-01-03T13:20:54Z Xach: "properly" often means "whatever emacs does"
2017-01-03T13:21:15Z Xach: I don't know why it uses 5 there. I never noticed, but it is the same here.
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2017-01-03T13:22:07Z beach: phoe_: Make sure you use the SLIME contribution for indentation.  It is named slime-indentation.
2017-01-03T13:25:17Z axion: phoe_: That is standard for all non-&body macro args in both SLIME or Sly with contribs
2017-01-03T13:25:17Z mood: It's surprising that slime-fancy does not include slime-indentation
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2017-01-03T13:50:16Z 
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: ccl-logbot mada easye AeroNotix isoraqathedh megalography varjagg kbtr watersoul_ jurov taij33n White_Flame misv Guest59936 Colleen minion aries_liuxueyang macdavid313 travv0 phoe_ stardiviner teksteiner cibs cmatei splittist l1x lugus35[m] M-moredhel RichardPaulBck[m creat Subfusc zygentoma Josh_2 malice` himmAllRight strelox kamog m00natic mrottenkolber ducasse mishoo groovy2shoes Mon_Ouie mklk d4ryus stepnem gingerale krasnal theethicalegoist lambda-smith
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: vlatkoB Sigyn john-mcaleely terpri ragepandemic heurist` `JRG rippa Blukunfando Harag flamebeard shka ChrisOei nrp3c MrBusiness karswell Tristam drot cpape sword antoszka foom Lord_of_Life angular_mike_ dilated_dinosaur rotty rebelshrug gigetoo k4rtik kilimanjaro makufiru gz_ LyndsySimon banjiewen mjl unrahul lancetw asedeno rvirding velvetcore zacts Khisanth yrk opt9 danieli SCHAAP137 setheus deank angavrilov impulse krrrcks Jesin mathrick boxxlab froggey
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: dan64- zagura voidlily troydm vaporatorius lonjil scymtym msmith jean377 __main__ mrcom moei kushal lnostdal fe[nl]ix QualityAddict alandipert MrWoohoo GGMethos neuro_sys marcoecc swflint cromachina wooden_ holly2 vibs29 bocaneri dcluna Quadrescence xantoz nimiux ym pseudonymous PlasmaStar razzy schjetne housel Guest57693 itruslove peccu1 adlai peterhil fkac srcerer cyraxjoe CrazyEddy dmiles shymega aaronjensen Xof p_l gabiruh lpaste SiCC ircbrowse pchrist
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: ecraven ferada snits tkd lxpz johs nullx002- e o`connor_ TeMPOraL cebreidian amoe danlentz tobel MorTal1ty trig-ger_ rann josh5tone Zhivago frug72 ogkloo eschatologist kini jdz clog axion roscoe_tw ft davsebamse AntiSpamMeta Zotan fjl_ zooey fitzsim aeth ski beaky norfumpit koisoke loke` akkad pacon Firedancer mach larme shikhin askatasuna ramus Nikotiini detergnet flip214_ WojciechK funnel finnrobi_ Patzy dsp__ anachrom1 pankracy_ larsen H4ns djinni`_
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: SAL9000 jackc_ eMBee ck_ tessier ineiros forgot Kaisyu phadthai pkkm araujo libre-man pjstirling omilu sukaeto thinkpad joast arbv Oladon jibanes drmeister gabot lemoinem gko brandonz jmasseo killmaster TruePika neuri8 nopf Lord_Nightmare fiddlerwoaroof vhost- unbalancedparen fluter chavezgu TMA oGMo sebboh N3vYn justinabrahms Posterdati arrdem Mandus hydraz jasom jackdaniel paroneayea nullman Ober sbryant grindhold trn Cthulhux drdo abbe kjeldahl cyberlard
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: CEnnis91 SlashLife tephra switchy phoe habs xristos harlequin78[m] Omarnem0[m] Tetsuo[m] M-Illandan Jach[m] ``Erik _death lieven derrida nydel vert2 Tordek tmc whartung Blkt cantstanya yeltzooo d4gg4d marsjaninzmarsa mnoonan kolko zymurgy redcedar schoppenhauer fulon Cymew Oddity mrSpec emerson guaqua Neet_ des_consolado z0d emma vlnx_ gendl mtd sepi`` toogley eagleflo djh gbyers wyan Glitchy NhanH sigjuice arrsim nhandler whiteline cross ggherdov tiago
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: Karunamon alms_clozure alphor pent_ zkat ozzloy jsnell PuercoPop Urfin_ vsync |3b| felideon XachX billstclair eschulte nicdev payphone heddwch tanuzzo brucem jself mikaelj les fouric sohail zerac otwieracz j0ni pok stux|RC joga leo_song newcup Hoolootwo rjeli qlkzy tilpner cods tokenrove cmpitg mood theBlackDragon tomaw dlowe solene hjudt samebchase mordocai luis raydeejay benny justinmcp arpunk ec\ fluxit Fade renard_ knobo copec tokik wizzo sshirokov
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: specbot pareidolia listp loke kjak yrdz rumbler31 eazar001 seg Xach
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2017-01-03T13:51:14Z mada: hi, I've gone through the first few chapters of pcl and so far the language feels pretty good. I have one question though, many people seem pretty excited about racket. How does it compare to CL?
2017-01-03T13:51:23Z mada: Also I guess I should ask this in a racket-focused channel as well.
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2017-01-03T13:52:24Z axion: phoe_: yes, that is expected behavior
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2017-01-03T14:09:42Z phoe_: axion: woah.
2017-01-03T14:12:12Z Xach: mada: that kind of meta stuff is not really topical. if you have a question about CL itself, many would be happy to answer.
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2017-01-03T14:15:10Z mada: Xach: thanks. I think the most important bit of info I needed to look for the answer myself was "Racket is a scheme".
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2017-01-03T14:17:06Z mada: Will keep that in mind about meta questions.
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2017-01-03T14:20:17Z travv0: Also, once you have some experience with CL it's easy to pick up Racket and judge both for yourself.  I think they're both nice languages in different ways.
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2017-01-03T14:21:03Z mada: Yeah honestly I'm surely over analyzing this. It's probably not that hard to get either after the other, even if they're not as similar as I thought at first.
2017-01-03T14:21:23Z mada: so I'll just stick with PCL and stop worrying about this.
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2017-01-03T14:22:04Z beach: mada: Modern Common Lisp code uses classes and generic functions a lot.  And CLOS is different from most other object systems.
2017-01-03T14:22:13Z Zhivago: CL has a lot of extra junk, which can be annoying. Scheme doesn't have a lot of extra junk, which can be annoying.
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2017-01-03T14:31:28Z mada: Zhivago: ha! good point
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2017-01-03T14:32:22Z mada: I see accounts of people missing the LOOP macro. One would think that's a pretty "standard" or "basic" thing though.
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2017-01-03T14:32:45Z mada: so it must be pretty powerful.
2017-01-03T14:33:01Z beach: It is.
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2017-01-03T14:38:56Z Zhivago: LOOP used in powerful ways is generally misused.
2017-01-03T14:39:08Z Zhivago: But it can be convenient in certain idiomatic ways.
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2017-01-03T14:59:35Z warweasle: What's a "Full Stack" Java developer?
2017-01-03T15:00:05Z jackdaniel: that is a kind of very miserable person ;-)
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2017-01-03T15:01:29Z warweasle: jackdaniel: How many stacks do you know? FULL.
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2017-01-03T15:03:42Z jackdaniel: full stack developer pop's everything his boss puts on the stack :)
2017-01-03T15:03:49Z jackdaniel: pushes on the stack°
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2017-01-03T15:05:28Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I prefer a deque...but that's STL and stuff...
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2017-01-03T16:55:39Z borodust: i'm working on certain tool and some concurrency model emerged during development that nicely maps to work tool is doing. This model is a mix of promises with data-dlow paradigm
2017-01-03T16:55:55Z borodust: example of how code might look like can be found here: https://gist.github.com/borodust/bba37b749c8dd1929f01347d35a3dc46
2017-01-03T16:56:37Z borodust: is anyone interested in adopting such a model?
2017-01-03T16:56:42Z malice`: borodust: where are the arrows from?
2017-01-03T16:57:17Z borodust: >>, ~> and -> are defined by model
2017-01-03T16:57:39Z borodust: some explanations of what they are inteded for are in the header
2017-01-03T16:57:44Z malice`: so there is no publicly available definition of these?
2017-01-03T16:57:55Z borodust: there are
2017-01-03T16:58:02Z borodust: if u meant implementation
2017-01-03T16:58:05Z malice`: yes
2017-01-03T16:58:20Z borodust: it's just it is integrated into the tool, and i'm thinking of splitting it into library
2017-01-03T16:58:22Z borodust: sec
2017-01-03T16:58:26Z malice`: that's what I meant, sorry. I was thinking in the programming language terms
2017-01-03T16:58:38Z malice`: I'm asking because I've seen a code using ~> before and I was wondering where it is
2017-01-03T16:58:49Z malice`: so far I only know https://github.com/hipeta/arrow-macros
2017-01-03T16:59:20Z borodust: https://github.com/borodust/cl-bodge/blob/0.3.0/engine/concurrency/async.lisp#L95
2017-01-03T16:59:54Z borodust: nah, that just a syntactic sugar i liked to explore :)
2017-01-03T16:59:56Z malice`: wow, another game engine in CL
2017-01-03T17:00:03Z malice`: do you hang out at #lisp-games?
2017-01-03T17:00:08Z borodust: yes, i do
2017-01-03T17:00:26Z malice`: I have to use IRC more often.
2017-01-03T17:00:43Z borodust: under the hood, that just a list of lists of callbacks of vertain format
2017-01-03T17:00:47Z borodust: *certain
2017-01-03T17:01:27Z malice`: Yeah, under the hood it's all 0s and 1s. Where did the syntactic sugar idea come from?
2017-01-03T17:01:37Z malice`: Or is it your idea that ~> just looks nicely?
2017-01-03T17:01:42Z borodust: exactly
2017-01-03T17:01:59Z malice`: Okay. Sorry, I won't be much help, but I wanted to ask these :)
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2017-01-03T17:02:08Z borodust: i already had >> and -> in mind, but couldn't come up with parallel operator)
2017-01-03T17:02:19Z borodust: malice`: no probs
2017-01-03T17:02:57Z malice`: anyway it looks kind of nicely except for the same names as arrow-macros
2017-01-03T17:03:02Z malice`: which probably isn't that big of a deal
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2017-01-03T17:14:22Z malice`: borodust: anyway, if you intend to spread the gist, there's a typo next to the -> explanation: atmoic instead of atomic
2017-01-03T17:14:50Z borodust: malice`: got it, tnx
2017-01-03T17:14:56Z malice`: np
2017-01-03T17:15:37Z malice`: so if I get it right, the -> with :any-thread works that way, because :any-thread is your implementation-defined reserved keyword for a designator meaning "all threads"?
2017-01-03T17:16:03Z malice`: or is the :any-thread just another name?
2017-01-03T17:16:03Z borodust: there's also one more concept i didn't mention, which is dispatcher
2017-01-03T17:16:24Z borodust: dispatcher looks into invariants and decides where execute next bunch
2017-01-03T17:16:49Z borodust: so user defines what those invariants/tags mean
2017-01-03T17:17:12Z borodust: but generally, they are introduced to distinguish code blocks that cannot be run in parallel
2017-01-03T17:17:40Z malice`: how do you pronounce "~>"? I understand that "->" is an "arrow", right?
2017-01-03T17:17:53Z borodust: bent arrow? XD
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2017-01-03T17:18:46Z borodust: seriously, i have no idea myself yet
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2017-01-03T17:19:14Z malice`: Okay, so if I had many arrows inside a bent arrow(needle?), two of which share the same tags, these would be not executed concurrently?
2017-01-03T17:19:26Z borodust: malice`: yes
2017-01-03T17:19:48Z malice`: so then it would work like progn for these arrows, right?
2017-01-03T17:20:10Z borodust: nope, because u would not know the order in which they are executed
2017-01-03T17:20:28Z borodust: to be certain of execution order one would need to use >>
2017-01-03T17:20:39Z malice`: so order would be undefined?
2017-01-03T17:20:49Z borodust: for ~> operator, yes
2017-01-03T17:21:02Z malice`: okay
2017-01-03T17:21:55Z malice`: do you have some working implementation in separate package?
2017-01-03T17:22:03Z malice`: it looks nice, I could play with it
2017-01-03T17:22:31Z borodust: i have working implementation, but asking exactly to see if there any interest in the idea
2017-01-03T17:23:01Z borodust: to distill it into separate library
2017-01-03T17:23:35Z malice`: I'm pretty sure I've seen some ~> operator for parallel operations...
2017-01-03T17:23:43Z borodust: i even have a test that cover some features
2017-01-03T17:23:47Z borodust: *covers
2017-01-03T17:24:25Z borodust: malice`: nice, that means ppl have somewhat same idea about of what ~>  could mean :)
2017-01-03T17:24:27Z oGMo: it definitely seems neat even if i personally have no immediate use for it
2017-01-03T17:24:57Z antoszka: I'd pronounce it “tilde-arrow”, if that matters.
2017-01-03T17:25:04Z borodust: ;p
2017-01-03T17:26:10Z borodust: alright, i'll try to make a lib out of it
2017-01-03T17:26:27Z borodust: i could merge it back into main tree anytime anyway
2017-01-03T17:26:38Z borodust: if there would be no interest
2017-01-03T17:27:11Z malice`: Or just keep it that way. I'm waiting for the link to the repo :)
2017-01-03T17:28:45Z borodust: malice`: with no interest it would depend on the needs of engine too much
2017-01-03T17:29:03Z malice`: right
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2017-01-03T17:53:20Z malice`: borodust: do you know lparallel?
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2017-01-03T18:14:03Z borodust: malice`: i've researched quite a few approaches/libs
2017-01-03T18:14:06Z borodust: lemme check
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2017-01-03T18:17:25Z borodust: malice`: looks good
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2017-01-03T18:18:56Z borodust: data-flow-driven sugar can be nicely put on top
2017-01-03T18:19:02Z borodust: i suspect
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2017-01-03T19:48:29Z borodust: oGMo malice`: https://github.com/borodust/cl-flow
2017-01-03T19:48:59Z borodust: unfortunately, tests depend on the home-grown concurrency lib, so my apologies
2017-01-03T19:49:34Z borodust: althou it is available too
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2017-01-03T19:50:31Z borodust: https://github.com/borodust/cl-muth
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2017-01-03T19:59:54Z oGMo: borodust: neat ;)
2017-01-03T20:02:02Z borodust: hopefully so :D
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2017-01-03T20:10:34Z jasom: borodust: Is there a need for -> ? Couldn't >> and ~> assume that any undecorated compound forms are to be executed?
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2017-01-03T20:12:34Z borodust: -> is needed, because any form cannot be actually executed
2017-01-03T20:12:56Z borodust: -> macroexpands to special callback that can be then used by other operators as they see fit
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2017-01-03T20:14:00Z borodust: i prefer to keep format of this callback as an implementation details for now
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2017-01-03T20:15:19Z borodust: essentially, >> and ~> operators work with list of lists of callbacks under the hood
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2017-01-03T20:16:51Z borodust: jasom: but, maybe somewhere in the future this feature might take plax
2017-01-03T20:16:57Z borodust: *place
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2017-01-03T20:19:15Z borodust: as a quick workaround i defined (define-flow value-flow (value) (-> :generic () value)) to use in the dependent code
2017-01-03T20:19:51Z borodust: it might be as well be just a defun
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2017-01-03T23:08:35Z phoe: https://github.com/npatrick04/timer-wheel <- I'm interested in this.
2017-01-03T23:08:46Z phoe: Are there any systems already on QL similar to that?
2017-01-03T23:09:01Z phoe: Something that will do its best to fire events every N milliseconds?
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2017-01-03T23:15:25Z antoszka: phoe: would that work for you? http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Timers
2017-01-03T23:18:14Z phoe: antoszka: it would, but is implementation-dependent.
2017-01-03T23:18:30Z antoszka: Definitely. That's why I'm asking.
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2017-01-03T23:23:42Z phoe: Basically, that timer has a repeat interval.
2017-01-03T23:23:56Z phoe: I want something to be executed every N milliseconds with an option of pausing and unpausing it.
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2017-01-03T23:24:42Z axion: Is this for a game by chance?
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2017-01-03T23:35:20Z phoe: axion: for a game server.
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2017-01-03T23:35:32Z phoe: I want internal commands to be issued every 100 milliseconds.
2017-01-03T23:35:51Z phoe: And I'm using an LPARALLEL queue for that.
2017-01-03T23:38:45Z axion: phoe: I would google for "Gaffer's Fix Your Time Step". This is actually a non-trivial problem.
2017-01-03T23:39:06Z phoe: axion: I know. With multithreading and non-deterministic GC, it's nontrivial.
2017-01-03T23:39:15Z axion: There is more to it than probably anticipated
2017-01-03T23:39:32Z axion: To avoid the spiral of death, etc
2017-01-03T23:39:32Z phoe: Actually, I'm more than fine with delays in this case as this is not a real-time game. So half a second here, half a second there would even be acceptable.
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2017-01-03T23:51:52Z phoe: axion: ugh, my implementation would be fine with something as simple and messy as (loop (when running-p (do-stuff)) (sleep 0.1))
2017-01-03T23:52:07Z phoe: but I want to find something better in order to avoid heresy
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2017-01-04T00:00:08Z phoe: Once again - I don't this need to run at a constant framerate. I want some things to occur about ten times per second on my server.
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2017-01-04T00:46:51Z aeth: phoe: afaik (sleep n) is okay for what you need, you just need n to be variable based on measured time.
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2017-01-04T00:47:33Z aeth: So afaik you just need a simple timer, time how long the loop takes, and then sleep the rest of the time.
2017-01-04T00:47:47Z aeth: It's not bulletproof, but it's better than (sleep 0.1) without taking days to implement
2017-01-04T00:48:07Z aeth: s/the loop takes/the loop iteration takes/
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2017-01-04T01:01:09Z phoe: aeth: I've just created something like that.
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2017-01-04T01:05:36Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-01-04T01:07:10Z phoe: raynold: it's 2 AM
2017-01-04T01:07:51Z raynold: hehe
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2017-01-04T07:50:18Z axion: I have an interesting problem
2017-01-04T07:51:24Z axion: Interesting because I never needed such oddness, but I'm wondering if there is anyway outside of the MOP, to get the name of the superclass of an object's class definition. I want to define a PRINT-OBJECT method that uses the name of the superclass instead of the direct class with :TYPE T
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2017-01-04T07:51:59Z Bike: getting a class's superclass is exactly the kind of thing the mop is for
2017-01-04T07:52:05Z Bike: i don't understand that last sentence though
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2017-01-04T07:56:34Z axion: Actually, I worded that a bit wrong.
2017-01-04T07:57:11Z axion: I have a METADATA class, with header and data slots. The data slot is another object that I want printed exactly as the print-object method for METADATA.
2017-01-04T07:57:49Z Bike: you mean, when a METADATA is printed, you want it to just print whatever's in the data slot?
2017-01-04T07:58:51Z axion: No, I mean when an object in the data slot is printed, I want it to actually print whatever metadata would print as. METADATA uses information in the header slot to print nicely, and I don't have access to that cleanly from the data object.
2017-01-04T07:59:29Z Bike: does the data have a link to the metadata?
2017-01-04T07:59:51Z axion: It does not and cannot as it represents a concrete syntax tree.
2017-01-04T08:00:04Z axion: This is pretty pointless, but would prevent a lot of headaches. I'm knee deep in a big hierarchy here, and getting a headache going through the inspector
2017-01-04T08:00:46Z Bike: well, naturally if the data doesn't know about the metadata, there's no way the printer could if it's just given the data
2017-01-04T08:02:22Z axion: I agree and I don't know what would cause me to think I can fix this cleanly. Lack of sleep has got to me I think.
2017-01-04T08:02:31Z Bike: it happens
2017-01-04T08:02:36Z axion: Thanks for listening. :)
2017-01-04T08:03:06Z Bike: "i can't do this" is probably a better conclusion than "i need to use the most obscure parts of the mop to print something" anyway
2017-01-04T08:04:15Z axion: Right.
2017-01-04T08:05:54Z axion: If I had it my way, I would just subclass HEADER for the different DATA types, but I am being pedantic about a specification
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2017-01-04T08:06:30Z axion: As anyone doing parsing should I believe :)
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2017-01-04T09:04:41Z hjudt: Xach: thanks for your suggestion yesterday. i am using this now, it seems to work ok: http://pastebin.com/DEUk5tA4
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2017-01-04T09:05:49Z loke: hjudt: But that difference isn't necessarily constant.
2017-01-04T09:06:03Z loke: What is it you really want to achieve?
2017-01-04T09:08:25Z hjudt: loke, why so? in effect, i want get-universal-time with higher precision. i am not quite sure about storing it yet, maybe the time difference will suffice too but i haven't made up my mind yet.
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2017-01-04T09:09:23Z loke: hjudt: I recommend you use the local-time library instead.
2017-01-04T09:10:24Z hjudt: maybe i should, yes
2017-01-04T09:14:51Z hjudt: i have to deal with epoch time anyway (external constraints), so better to ditch universal-time and use unix timestamps to be more in uniform. and i probably would have stored epoch time in the database instead of universal time.
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2017-01-04T09:19:01Z loke: hjudt: local-time has nice conversions between its format and unix timestamps.
2017-01-04T09:20:11Z hjudt: yes. i've used cl-epoch for that until now because it is smaller. but now that is a reason to switch.
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2017-01-04T11:20:17Z Xach: hjudt: you can get some more portability by using internal-time-units-per-second instead of 1000.
2017-01-04T11:20:41Z Xach: hjudt: I don't understand why it's a loop instead of a simple assignment. Can you explain?
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2017-01-04T12:47:54Z flip214_: Is there something similar to parenscript that produces LUA sources from CL?
2017-01-04T12:48:17Z Zhivago: Do people still use Lua?
2017-01-04T12:49:21Z flip214_: some things can accept lua plugins but not anything else
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2017-01-04T12:50:42Z Zhivago: I can't imagine that it would be very difficult to write an s-exp to lua transform.
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2017-01-04T13:18:03Z Xach: flip214_: there is nothing that exists.
2017-01-04T13:18:09Z Xach: flip214_: it sounds like an interesting project
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2017-01-04T13:39:17Z Xach: hjudt: the suspense is killing me
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2017-01-04T13:47:34Z flip214_: help for abcl, please.
2017-01-04T13:47:36Z flip214_: Running ABCL and calling (ql:quickload :hunchentoot) gives me "Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB." even though the .jar is in the current directory.
2017-01-04T13:47:54Z flip214_: how can I tell it where to look?
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2017-01-04T13:55:56Z fare__: if it's about jars, maybe by specifying the classpath?
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2017-01-04T14:02:39Z hjudt: Xach: sorry for delay, didn't want to hurt your nerves ;-) as for delay, i thought there might be a delay between the two calls and the offset calc might be wrong, so there's that loop to make sure two calcs match. but loke is right, the better idea will be to use local-time
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2017-01-04T14:05:20Z hjudt: and you're right about the internal-time-units-per-second var, i have seen it but simply forgotten about it. anyway, i have dropped that code already.
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2017-01-04T14:34:04Z flip214_: shouldn't the current directory be in the classpath anyway?
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2017-01-04T14:42:17Z H4ns: flip214_: the jvm does not have a concept of "the current directory"
2017-01-04T14:42:34Z H4ns: flip214_: consequently, the current directory is not in the classpath
2017-01-04T14:42:47Z H4ns: they went into length explaining that as being the right thing back in the day.
2017-01-04T14:43:12Z flip214_: oh, okay.
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2017-01-04T14:45:41Z flip214_: thanks
2017-01-04T14:49:01Z flip214_: hmmm, pointing CLASSPATH to the file or the containing directory doesn't work either
2017-01-04T14:49:40Z H4ns: flip214_: did you use an absolute path?
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2017-01-04T14:51:29Z flip214_: yes
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2017-01-04T14:54:16Z flip214: ASDF:*CENTRAL-REGISTRY* doesn't help either
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2017-01-04T15:21:24Z jonesy: i want to have top-level variable in that is private to a file/function. is this the way to go? http://paste.lisp.org/display/335709
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2017-01-04T15:26:26Z pjb: jonesy: this is a way to do it, but that makes the function a closure, which may be inconvenient. Also, it's more difficult to inspect this variable with the debugger.
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2017-01-04T15:26:49Z pjb: jonesy: so it may be more practical to (defparameter %foo% "foo")
2017-01-04T15:27:05Z pjb: jonesy: notice the use of % instead of *, to indicate that it's a "private" variable.
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2017-01-04T15:27:33Z jonesy: inconvenient when could it be inconvenient?
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2017-01-04T15:27:47Z jonesy: pjb cool, didn't know about %
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2017-01-04T15:29:16Z pjb: jonesy: well the inconvenience is theorical: it would be easier to serialize a function than a closure (which may contain multiple functions).  But since the only standard way to do it is via COMPILE-FILE, indeed it the only visible difference will be with the debugger and inspectability of the variable.
2017-01-04T15:29:28Z H4ns: jonesy: why worry about private?
2017-01-04T15:29:48Z H4ns: jonesy: just make the variable be a special variable and don't export the symbol, then it will be private enough.
2017-01-04T15:30:07Z jonesy: H4ns to avoid poluting namespace and to not allow user to set it directly and mess things up by doing it wrong
2017-01-04T15:30:31Z jonesy: Symbol's function definition is void: defparameter
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2017-01-04T15:30:49Z pjb: jonesy: are you programming in emacs lisp?
2017-01-04T15:31:08Z H4ns: jonesy: don't worry about "pollution", and also don't worry about the user messing it up.
2017-01-04T15:31:11Z pjb: jonesy: then: (defmacro defparameter (symbol &optional initvalue docstring) `(progn (defvar ,symbol nil ,docstring) (setq   ,symbol ,initvalue)))
2017-01-04T15:31:15Z H4ns: jonesy: in general: don't worry :)
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2017-01-04T15:32:01Z jonesy: pjb yes emacs lisp
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2017-01-04T15:33:57Z jonesy: pjb % doesn't seem to have any effect though. variable is still accessible
2017-01-04T15:34:18Z beach: jonesy: I am afraid you are in the wrong channel then.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-01-04T15:34:20Z H4ns: jonesy: by making your variable a special variable and not exporting its name, you're making your intent clear enough.
2017-01-04T15:34:36Z beach: jonesy: Common Lisp has a package system that is meant for that kind of stuff.
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2017-01-04T15:35:51Z beach: H4ns: Does Emacs Lisp have packages?  It didn't use to.
2017-01-04T15:37:20Z jonesy: beach I see
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2017-01-04T15:38:06Z pjb: jonesy: yes, the variable is still accessible, which is important to let you debug it. But since it has those % surrounding its name, people will be very afraid to use it.
2017-01-04T15:38:22Z H4ns: oh, emacs lisp.
2017-01-04T15:39:16Z pjb: jonesy: and unfortunately, emacs lisp doesn't have a package system similar to CL.  But you could implement one based on obarray. Then you'd only need to extend the reader.
2017-01-04T15:39:50Z jonesy: what are packages in this context? something like namespaces?
2017-01-04T15:39:55Z pjb: jonesy: but with macros you could still define variables in different obarrays and reference them.
2017-01-04T15:39:58Z jonesy: I missed those in emacs lisp
2017-01-04T15:40:02Z pjb: jonesy: yes, namespaces.
2017-01-04T15:40:29Z pjb: jonesy: so, name it: jonesy-mypackage--%foo% to avoid collisions.
2017-01-04T15:41:05Z jonesy: i am doing something similar for all my functions and vars
2017-01-04T15:42:11Z jonesy: just a bit annoying that i have to type "namespace" *all* the time
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2017-01-04T15:44:49Z beach: jonesy: I suggest you program in Common Lisp instead.  That way your problem will be on topic as well.
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2017-01-04T15:55:19Z pjb: jonesy: perhaps you could take this opportunity to wrap libecl.so into an emacs plugin module, so you would be able to run Common Lisp code from emacs?
2017-01-04T15:56:05Z pjb: jonesy: the alternative is to use emacs-cl, which is a Common Lisp implementation on emacs lisp, but it has bit rotten since the introduction of lexical binding in emacs; it'd need an overhaul.
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2017-01-04T16:10:50Z jonesy: hmm, i can't really see the value in using common lisp to extend emacs? is anyone actually doing that?
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2017-01-04T16:21:56Z pjb: jonesy: not yet. But eventually.
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2017-01-04T16:22:12Z pjb: jonesy: the value would be to not have to qualify all the symbols with your namespace!
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2017-01-04T16:30:55Z jonesy: pjb true
2017-01-04T16:32:01Z jonesy: maybe elisp will gain namespaces/packages though
2017-01-04T16:32:19Z jonesy: just like it gained lexical binding
2017-01-04T16:32:37Z jonesy: is there a cl emacs project like guille emacs?
2017-01-04T16:33:13Z jonesy: guile
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2017-01-04T16:34:22Z pjb: possibly.
2017-01-04T16:34:23Z phadthai: there is climacs
2017-01-04T16:34:29Z phadthai: I've never tried it
2017-01-04T16:34:37Z pjb: and there's Hemlock.
2017-01-04T16:35:09Z pjb: jonesy: but the only variant of Hemlock that's really usable is the one embedded in Clozure CL.app  (ccl on MacOSX).
2017-01-04T16:35:19Z mood: Guile Emacs implements Elisp, unlike Climacs, Hemlock, etc. I'm not aware of anything similar in CL
2017-01-04T16:35:32Z pjb: hemlock implements elisp.
2017-01-04T16:35:42Z pjb: But implementing elisp is not sufficient.
2017-01-04T16:35:42Z mood: Does it? Wow, I never knew
2017-01-04T16:36:18Z pjb: You need elisp, the emacs data structures, the emacs C libraries, and then to port the emacs lisp libraries.
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2017-01-04T17:26:04Z emaczen: If I override initialize-instance and then call shared-initialize, what should I pass to the second argument of shared-initialize?
2017-01-04T17:26:40Z beach: I don't think you are allowed to override the primary method of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2017-01-04T17:27:00Z emaczen: beach: You can
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2017-01-04T17:27:23Z emaczen: Maybe I mean specialize though
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2017-01-04T17:28:05Z beach: Hmm, I think I must be misremembering.
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2017-01-04T17:28:46Z beach: You can pass T as the second argument.
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2017-01-04T17:29:35Z emaczen: beach: that sounds right -- I've done this before but just couldn't remember what I did
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2017-01-04T18:36:29Z flip214: When my HANDLER-CASE receives some condition (eg. an ERROR), how can I retrieve the textual message?
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2017-01-04T18:37:02Z flip214: (STRING ) says "< ...> is not a string designator"
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2017-01-04T18:37:37Z jackdaniel: (print error my-string-stream)
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2017-01-04T18:38:54Z jackdaniel: princ °
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2017-01-04T18:42:24Z Xach: (princ-to-string error) also
2017-01-04T18:44:07Z flip214: jackdaniel: Xach: yeah, thanks.
2017-01-04T18:44:26Z flip214: can I get a backtrace of the offending code, too?
2017-01-04T18:44:45Z jackdaniel: not portably
2017-01-04T18:45:01Z jackdaniel: trivial-backtrace or uiop can give you that I think
2017-01-04T18:45:07Z flip214: well, (invoke-debugger) is even better ;)
2017-01-04T18:45:29Z Xach: Why do you want to look at the textual message and invoke the debugger from the handler?
2017-01-04T18:46:22Z flip214: well, I need the textual message to relay it back from the API I'm writing.
2017-01-04T18:46:45Z flip214: and invoking the debugger would be nice to find out why and where I get the (unexpected) error in the first place
2017-01-04T18:47:24Z flip214: hmm, is handler-case too late to give me the original code location?
2017-01-04T18:48:02Z flip214: the (invoke-debugger) call puts me in the (handler-case) part
2017-01-04T18:48:09Z Bike: handler case unwinds, yeah
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2017-01-04T18:48:54Z flip214: Bike: is there something that doesn't?
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2017-01-04T18:49:00Z flip214: handler-bind will do so, too?
2017-01-04T18:49:01Z Bike: handler bind
2017-01-04T18:49:37Z Bike: i think what xach was alluding to is that you don't usually need to call invoke-debugger because that's just what happens if the condition isn't handled
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2017-01-04T18:51:06Z flip214: yeah, but a macro in the (generated) apis _does_ catch all errors, so that it can return a failure code
2017-01-04T18:51:47Z Bike: if you call invoke-debugger it won't return
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2017-01-04T18:52:33Z flip214: I just changed the T in handler-case to a NIL, now I get the debugger at the right location.
2017-01-04T18:52:39Z flip214: thanks for all the help!
2017-01-04T18:52:39Z Bike: if by "return" you mean it stores it somewhere you could set up a handler (with handler bind) that stores and then doesn't handle the condition so that the debugger is entered normally
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2017-01-04T18:53:25Z flip214: can I have the catch-all T in the handler-case calculated, like as (WE-ARE-IN-PRODUCTION) ?
2017-01-04T18:53:35Z flip214: like the expression in COND clauses
2017-01-04T18:53:48Z flip214: But I guess that's not possible here, because it's only a type and not even quoted
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2017-01-04T18:54:25Z jackdaniel: every condition is a subclass of T
2017-01-04T18:54:32Z jackdaniel: subtype°
2017-01-04T18:54:45Z Bike: you could use a feature, or a janky satisfies type
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2017-01-04T18:57:27Z flip214: oh, yeah, a satiesfies function might be the best idea - then I can _dynamically_ check whether swank is connected!
2017-01-04T18:57:33Z flip214: great idea, thanks a lot!
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2017-01-04T19:03:03Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-01-04T19:15:09Z akkad hunts for cl help via paypal
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2017-01-04T19:21:32Z axion: akkad: ?
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2017-01-04T19:24:48Z akkad: axion: looking for cl help on a opensource project, and am willing to pay to get unblocked. :P
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2017-01-04T19:25:21Z axion: I may be free, depending on the task. You can /query me to describe it
2017-01-04T19:26:17Z akkad: figure paying for freeware work is cheaper than closed source apps
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2017-01-04T19:28:46Z drmeister: There doesn't seem to be any cap on the value of *read-base* - is there a reasonable value to cap it at?  (I'm asking in #lisp as well)
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2017-01-04T19:29:52Z quadresce: Anyone have recommendations on how to check if a pathname has any relative components, like ".."?
2017-01-04T19:30:19Z flip214: quadresce: as a string, or PATHNAMEP?
2017-01-04T19:30:27Z quadresce: any pathname designator
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2017-01-04T19:30:43Z quadresce: Look for :UP in PATHNAME-DIRECTORY?
2017-01-04T19:30:46Z flip214: (pathname-directory #P"../") (:RELATIVE :UP)
2017-01-04T19:30:55Z flip214: guess so
2017-01-04T19:31:05Z axion: uiop/pathname:relative-pathname-p
2017-01-04T19:32:05Z quadresce: axion, relative-pathname-p checks for any non-absolute path
2017-01-04T19:32:16Z quadresce: "./foo/bar.txt" is relative, for example
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2017-01-04T19:32:54Z axion: I took the question as not starting with an absolute component, but ok :)
2017-01-04T19:34:13Z quadresce: I guess that's reasonable, I made it sound like ".." was just an example.
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2017-01-04T19:36:33Z quadresce: I guess looking for :UP or :BACK is what I'm to do.
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2017-01-04T19:49:34Z White_Flame: Is a tilde the only magic character that FORMAT ever deals with?  If I have arbitrary (trusted but non-technical) user-supplied strings to use as format specifiers, is there anything else to watch out for?
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2017-01-04T19:51:56Z quadresce: White_Flame, all directives known to FORMAT start with a tilde
2017-01-04T19:52:27Z quadresce: White_Flame, But ~/NAME/ can call arbitrary functions
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2017-01-04T19:53:05Z Bike: "non-technical"?
2017-01-04T19:53:08Z White_Flame: my instructions to the operator are just "put ~a where you want the info embedded, don't use tildes elsewhere"
2017-01-04T19:53:16Z White_Flame: lazy solution
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2017-01-04T19:53:35Z quadresce: White_Flame, Why not just make a function to replace, say, @ with ~A or something like that in the string?
2017-01-04T19:53:47Z White_Flame: see above
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2017-01-04T19:57:31Z quadresce: White_Flame, I consider this to be a lazy minimum http://paste.lisp.org/display/335729
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2017-01-04T19:59:01Z Bike: no escape?
2017-01-04T19:59:35Z quadresce: no tildes allowed!
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2017-01-04T22:35:08Z aeth: I shouldn't expect any consing if I make a typed array that's local to the scope of a function, right?
2017-01-04T22:35:21Z aeth: Because (elt foo 0) is a lot clearer than foo-0, especially when there are four different foos
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2017-01-04T22:36:38Z aeth: sb-sprof doesn't appear to count any allocs there, if I'm reading it properly
2017-01-04T22:38:32Z aeth: (It's not portable to every CL, obviously, but I'm just wondering if it's an assumption I can make because people who are for some reason using very slow CLs probably aren't going to care anyway.)
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2017-01-04T22:50:47Z Bike: sbcl manual says arrays can be allocated dynamic-extent if they're simple, one dimensional, and have constant element-type.
2017-01-04T22:50:57Z aeth: yes, I was reading that
2017-01-04T22:51:27Z aeth: Is only SBCL not going to cons or do other Lisps behave similarly?
2017-01-04T22:51:31Z adlai: for a probabilistically-portable performance poost, (declare (dynamic-extent your-array))
2017-01-04T22:51:42Z aeth: ah
2017-01-04T22:51:52Z Bike: i don't know if other lisps document it as much
2017-01-04T22:52:05Z Bike: but yeah, declaring it dynamic-extent tells the implementation to stack allocate if it can
2017-01-04T22:52:45Z aeth: wow, that actually changed the massive pile of assembly somewhere
2017-01-04T22:52:50Z aeth: 2489 bytes instead of 2469
2017-01-04T22:53:01Z Bike: that sounds like enough for an alloca.
2017-01-04T22:54:13Z Bike: i see at least one place in the ccl source where an allocated string is declared dynamic-extent, which might indicate that it can do that
2017-01-04T22:54:51Z aeth: well, s-prof still shows 0 directly in the function so it doesn't look like it's *hurting* SBCL
2017-01-04T22:55:05Z aeth: That would be a nightmare... if portably doing it hurt SBCL
2017-01-04T22:55:13Z aeth: s/s-prof/sprof/
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2017-01-04T22:57:05Z names: knicklux Bike manuel_ Karl_Dscc moei Xach ryanwatkins Josh_2 zygentoma ChrisOei travv0 Jesin schjetne pierpa m_zr0 nopf oleo aries_liuxueyang Zhivago gingerale mada cibs al-damiri easye terpri stepnem d4ryus madmalik pegu Amplituhedron dmiles krasnal yeticry MrBusiness Cymew Walex ozzloy froggey ak5 dddddd marcoecc Omarnem0[m] Jach[m] Tetsuo[m] RichardPaulBck[m harlequin78[m] M-Illandan lugus35[m] M-moredhel Oladon adlai djinni` nicdev Khisanth heurist
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2017-01-04T22:57:05Z names: Sigyn Blukunfando Tristam drot cpape antoszka foom rotty rebelshrug k4rtik kilimanjaro makufiru LyndsySimon banjiewen mjl unrahul lancetw asedeno rvirding velvetcore zacts opt9 danieli SCHAAP137 setheus deank krrrcks dan64- voidlily troydm vaporatorius lonjil msmith jean377 __main__ lnostdal QualityAddict alandipert neuro_sys wooden_ holly2 vibs29 dcluna Quadrescence xantoz nimiux razzy housel Guest57693 itruslove peccu1 peterhil fkac srcerer cyraxjoe
2017-01-04T22:57:05Z names: CrazyEddy shymega aaronjensen Xof p_l gabiruh lpaste SiCC ircbrowse pchrist ecraven ferada snits tkd lxpz nullx002- e o`connor_ TeMPOraL cebreidian amoe tobel trig-ger rann eschatologist kini axion roscoe_tw davsebamse AntiSpamMeta fjl_ fitzsim aeth ski beaky norfumpit koisoke loke` akkad pacon Firedancer shikhin askatasuna ramus Nikotiini detergnet flip214 WojciechK funnel Patzy anachrom1 pankracy_ SAL9000 eMBee ck_ ineiros forgot Kaisyu phadthai
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2017-01-04T22:57:05Z names: mrSpec emerson Neet_ des_consolado z0d emma vlnx_ gendl mtd sepi`` toogley eagleflo gbyers wyan Glitchy NhanH sigjuice arrsim nhandler whiteline cross tiago Karunamon alms_clozure alphor pent_ zkat jsnell Urfin_ vsync |3b| XachX billstclair eschulte payphone heddwch tanuzzo brucem jself sohail zerac otwieracz j0ni pok joga leo_song newcup Hoolootwo rjeli qlkzy tilpner cods tokenrove cmpitg mood theBlackDragon tomaw solene hjudt mordocai luis raydeejay
2017-01-04T22:57:05Z names: benny justinmcp arpunk ec\ fluxit Fade renard_ knobo pareidolia loke kjak yrdz eazar001 seg
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2017-01-04T22:57:49Z akkad: Bike yes
2017-01-04T22:57:56Z aeth: Afaik, the only other Lisp that I wouldn't have to pay an arm and a leg for that supports all of the features required is ABCL, but I haven't been able to get it running to test it because of the JVM complexities. There's also a few others like Clasp, which don't have the features yet.
2017-01-04T22:58:05Z Bike: asdf:compile-op exists for me in 3.1.5
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2017-01-04T22:59:19Z Bike: and it is still exported by asdf/lisp-action on github
2017-01-04T22:59:19Z akkad: ok namespace i see. thanks
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2017-01-04T23:01:31Z akkad: perfect thanks. will review the asdf methods andf fix this up
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2017-01-05T00:59:40Z malice: Does standard forbid one from defining macro in non-toplevel form, e.g. function?
2017-01-05T01:00:02Z malice: (defun x () (define-compiler-macro foo ()))
2017-01-05T01:00:09Z malice: would invoking X create a compiler-macro FOO?
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2017-01-05T01:02:25Z PuercoPop: malice: any reason why not define it as a top level form?
2017-01-05T01:02:59Z malice: curiosity
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2017-01-05T01:03:27Z malice: I'm asking because I want to know if compiler that does not create a binding has a bug
2017-01-05T01:03:41Z PuercoPop: malice: from the defmacro entry at the very least it wouldn't be expanded in any later occurrences in the file
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2017-01-05T01:04:34Z malice: how about REPL?
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2017-01-05T01:07:41Z PuercoPop: malice: I'm not very knowledgeable on the intricacies of CL(HS), so I don't know. But given than compiler macros can decline to expand, it seems counter intuitive to have them in the middle of a function, plus they give the wrong impression (that they are local to the defun, like in scheme)
2017-01-05T01:08:27Z malice: Yeah, I am aware of that problem. I do not intend to use it as a feature
2017-01-05T01:08:33Z pjb: malice: a-priori, a function body is executed only when the function is called, at run-time. This is millenaries after compilation time. In all probabilities, the compiler doesn't even exist anymore!
2017-01-05T01:08:35Z malice: I want to know how a conforming compiler should behave
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2017-01-05T01:09:07Z malice: pjb: is there a clear distinction between these times in REPL?
2017-01-05T01:09:22Z malice: how about progn with define-compiler-macro and then a call to this macro?
2017-01-05T01:09:25Z pjb: No, not in the REPL. And also, you could call f at compilation time.
2017-01-05T01:09:59Z pjb: But this is still strange to put  def* in a def*.  def*s are for toplevel.
2017-01-05T01:11:19Z malice: I just want to know whether to report a bug or not :)
2017-01-05T01:11:26Z malice: SBCL works with defun
2017-01-05T01:11:54Z malice: and progn
2017-01-05T01:12:01Z malice: ECL does not work with both
2017-01-05T01:12:14Z malice: I want to know whether both are conforming, or one, and which one is.
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2017-01-05T01:13:45Z PuercoPop: (progn (define-compiler-macro ..)) should definitely work
2017-01-05T01:15:00Z PuercoPop: as progn preserves the 'top-level-ness' (And there are valid use cases, ej a defmacro expanding into a defun + its compiler-macro
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2017-01-05T01:17:42Z malice: Okay, thanks!
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2017-01-05T01:26:04Z pjb: That said, clhs define-compiler-macro doesn't describe compilation-time vs. run-time side effects, so I would say that even when not evaluated as a toplevel form we should get all the effects, as long as it's done at compilation time (with eval-when).
2017-01-05T01:27:24Z Bike: wow, what? that seems like a spec bug, that it doesn't work specially at top level
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2017-01-05T01:29:37Z pjb: What would it need to do specially at the toplevel?
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2017-01-05T01:30:31Z Bike: make the compiler macro available at compile time, like defmacro
2017-01-05T01:30:42Z Bike: i guess it would be hard to write that without letting the implementation not store anything
2017-01-05T01:30:44Z PuercoPop: pjb: I'm reading define-compiler-macro and it says it is the same as defmacro except for an exhaustive list of define
2017-01-05T01:31:06Z PuercoPop: wouldn't that mean that it has the same restrictions as defmacro?
2017-01-05T01:31:16Z pjb: WHat I mean is that (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (defun f () (define-compiler-macro foo ())) (f)) should have the same effects as (define-compiler-macro foo ()).
2017-01-05T01:31:51Z Bike: oh, sure yes.
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2017-01-05T01:35:29Z malice: how does eval-when actually work?
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2017-01-05T01:35:58Z Bike: complicatedly
2017-01-05T01:36:01Z malice: :)
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2017-01-05T01:36:11Z Bike: clhs 3.2.3.1
2017-01-05T01:36:11Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2017-01-05T01:36:26Z Bike: check out the helpful table!!
2017-01-05T01:36:57Z malice: I mean, does it create a separate environment?
2017-01-05T01:37:06Z Bike: no
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2017-01-05T01:37:41Z malice: I don't understand why does this not work:
2017-01-05T01:38:09Z malice: (put in repl)
2017-01-05T01:38:11Z malice: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (progn (define-compiler-macro foo ())))
2017-01-05T01:38:15Z malice: and then (foo)
2017-01-05T01:38:39Z Bike: well that "doesn't work" for two reasons
2017-01-05T01:39:04Z Bike: one is that the repl uses compile or eval rather than compile-file, so if it runs into an eval-when that doesn't include :execute it does nothing
2017-01-05T01:39:07Z pjb: Because the REPL is :execute. So this eval-when should do nohting.
2017-01-05T01:39:18Z Bike: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (print 'fuck)) => NIL
2017-01-05T01:39:46Z Bike: and two is that calling foo when there's a compiler macro but no actual definition isn't right.
2017-01-05T01:39:55Z Bike: also you don't need the progn, eval-when has one implied.
2017-01-05T01:40:24Z malice: I can see the progn
2017-01-05T01:40:34Z malice: what do you mean by lack of definition?
2017-01-05T01:40:40Z malice: the definition is implicit NIL, no?
2017-01-05T01:40:41Z pjb: defun or defmacro foo
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2017-01-05T01:41:03Z pjb: the reason being that the compiler macro can be ignored.
2017-01-05T01:41:08Z pjb: Notably, eg. on the REPL.
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2017-01-05T01:42:19Z malice: so if I put (define-compiler-macro ...) in my REPL, it's free to ignore it?
2017-01-05T01:42:28Z malice: I think I misunderstood that last phrase
2017-01-05T01:43:04Z pjb: wherever you put it, the code you run at the REPL may be interpreter, or compiled quickly so compiler macros may be ignored even more than when compiling files.
2017-01-05T01:43:16Z Bike: well the point is that nothing actually has to use compiler macros
2017-01-05T01:43:32Z Bike: they're optional, the implementation might just look at (foo) and say ok where's the foo function? isn't one? abort
2017-01-05T01:43:46Z pjb: function or macro.
2017-01-05T01:43:53Z pjb: You can write compiler macros for macros.
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2017-01-05T01:45:00Z malice: Bike: that's interesting, could you please show me CLHS part about compiler macros being optional?
2017-01-05T01:45:47Z Bike: clhs 3.2.2.1.3
2017-01-05T01:45:47Z specbot: When Compiler Macros Are Used: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbac.htm
2017-01-05T01:45:56Z Bike: second sentence
2017-01-05T01:51:21Z malice: So, long story short, (define-compiler-macro foo ()) and then calling (foo) might result in error, as compiler-macro is optional?
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2017-01-05T01:52:08Z Bike: yeah
2017-01-05T01:52:17Z Bike: semantically, compiler macros aren't really intended to be used standalone anyway
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2017-01-05T01:56:24Z malice: Thanks Bike.
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2017-01-05T02:02:19Z malice: one more question. If I were to use (compiler-macro-function 'name), then it will always return the same result?
2017-01-05T02:02:58Z malice: (e.g. calling name doesn't have to call compiler macro per standard, but compiler-macro-function does have to make proper checks)
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2017-01-05T02:05:15Z Bike: i think it does have to store the compiler macro, yeah
2017-01-05T02:09:32Z malice: That would make sense. Thanks.
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2017-01-05T02:50:06Z erjoalgo: how do I upgrade swank? "Can't locate module: SWANK-IO-PACKAGE::SWANK-MACROSTEP   [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]"
2017-01-05T02:50:06Z erjoalgo:  
2017-01-05T02:50:20Z erjoalgo: Versions differ: 2016-02-10 (slime) vs. 2015-06-01 (swank). Continue? (y or n) y
2017-01-05T02:52:23Z Xach: erjoalgo: how did you install slime?
2017-01-05T02:52:33Z erjoalgo: via package-install
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2017-01-05T02:54:04Z Xach: erjoalgo: I try to keep mine in sync by installing via quicklisp-slime-helper. I don't know if that is feasible for your setup.
2017-01-05T02:56:58Z erjoalgo: this slime/swank mismatch is so annoying
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2017-01-05T03:02:38Z erjoalgo: still get the same issue after (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))
2017-01-05T03:03:28Z Xach: erjoalgo: that usually means that slime.el is loading from somewhere else also, i think.
2017-01-05T03:03:49Z Xach: erjoalgo: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "swank")?
2017-01-05T03:04:03Z Xach: that could be the other side of the problem
2017-01-05T03:04:49Z erjoalgo: works after starting slime from another emacs session.
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2017-01-05T03:05:24Z Xach: phew
2017-01-05T03:05:25Z erjoalgo: Xach thanks for the quicklisp-slime-helper tip
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2017-01-05T03:05:35Z Xach: you can update slime by updating quicklisp with (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
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2017-01-05T03:05:54Z erjoalgo: so I should never install slime via package-install?
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2017-01-05T03:06:43Z loke: erjoalgo: Never.
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2017-01-05T03:07:08Z Xach: erjoalgo: well, i think it is supposed to work
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2017-01-05T03:07:19Z Xach: erjoalgo: i haven't tried it enough to say if it is good or bad
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2017-01-05T03:09:02Z loke: Xach: I did. Back when I was young and stupid.
2017-01-05T03:09:04Z loke: :-)
2017-01-05T03:09:20Z loke: Now I'm old and stupid, but at least I know better than to install that thing. :-)
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2017-01-05T03:10:15Z Xach: i thought slime's package-install support was relatively new
2017-01-05T03:10:18Z Xach: like, past year or two
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2017-01-05T03:15:32Z circ-user-jRgN6: Does it make sense to put (declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3))) in my ~/.sbclrc? When I load ASDF systems, will it apply that to stuff it builds?
2017-01-05T03:16:22Z Xach: circ-user-jRgN6: i'd use the restrict-compiler-policy thing instead. it will apply to the stuff you build even if they declaim/declare otherwise.
2017-01-05T03:16:26Z loke: circ-user-jRgN6: The declamation will only apply to the .sbclrc itself.
2017-01-05T03:16:48Z loke: Don't you have to use PROCLAIM or something?
2017-01-05T03:17:01Z loke never fully understood the difference between declaim and proclaim.
2017-01-05T03:17:39Z circ-user-jRgN6: OK thanks. Restrict-compiler-policy is an ASDF thing?
2017-01-05T03:17:47Z loke: circ-user-jRgN6: It's an SBCL thing.
2017-01-05T03:20:27Z Zhivago: loke: It's just a matter of quotation, iirc.
2017-01-05T03:21:08Z Zhivago: declaim is a macro which expands to a suitably quoted proclaim, iirc.
2017-01-05T03:21:51Z loke: You'r right. It becomes (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL :LOAD-TOPLEVEL :EXECUTE) (SB-C::%PROCLAIM '(OPTIMIZE (SPEED 3)) (SB-C:SOURCE-LOCATION)))
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2017-01-05T04:09:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-05T04:10:51Z Xach: allo
2017-01-05T04:11:03Z Arathnim: Good morning.
2017-01-05T04:11:57Z adlai: clearly, if everybody ACKed a broadcast SYN, the network would collapse in two shakes of a metaphrand
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2017-01-05T04:18:26Z Fare: beach: hi!
2017-01-05T04:18:58Z beach: Fare: How is progress on the paper?
2017-01-05T04:18:59Z Fare: beach: would you have time to proofread my submission to SNAPL 2017? I'm finishing my first draft tonight.
2017-01-05T04:19:30Z beach: As long as you give me some time to do it, sure.
2017-01-05T04:19:58Z Fare: beach: the ASDF 2017 paper is done, except that I have to switch the latex class from sigplan to the new acm class.
2017-01-05T04:20:20Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/asdf2017
2017-01-05T04:21:06Z Fare: when I'm done with snapl, I'll hopefully have time to create a new racket package for that acm class.
2017-01-05T04:24:04Z beach: Fare: For the ASDF paper, I recommend you do a CCS section as well, as the new ACM style requires.
2017-01-05T04:30:49Z beach: Fare: If you remind me once you have switched styles, I'll have a final look at the ASDF paper as well.
2017-01-05T04:32:41Z beach needs to make progress on his own submissions today.
2017-01-05T04:34:52Z beach: I made some progress on the path-replication paper, in case someone would like to have a look: http://metamodular.com/path-replication.pdf
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2017-01-05T04:42:29Z adlai: beach: broken reference at start of paragraph 2 of section 4 ?
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2017-01-05T04:43:32Z beach: Indeed.  Thanks!
2017-01-05T04:44:26Z adlai: np. good morning :)
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2017-01-05T04:46:05Z beach: Fixed.  Thanks again!
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2017-01-05T04:46:32Z Fare: My SNAPL proposal is at https://github.com/fare/fci2017 -- it's a very rough first draft, but the deadline is this Friday...
2017-01-05T04:46:54Z beach: In what timezone?
2017-01-05T04:46:59Z Fare: what's a CCS section?
2017-01-05T04:47:10Z Fare: "anywhere on earth"
2017-01-05T04:47:30Z beach: See the section right after the abstract in my path-replication paper.
2017-01-05T04:47:43Z beach: It comes with the new ACM style.
2017-01-05T04:47:55Z beach: You need some XML in there.
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2017-01-05T04:48:16Z Fare: so in practice saturday noon UTC.
2017-01-05T04:48:30Z Fare: beach: URL?
2017-01-05T04:48:56Z Fare: oh, found it above ^
2017-01-05T04:48:58Z beach: You will find some human-friendly instructions here: https://shinmera.github.io/els-web/2017/index.html#submissions
2017-01-05T04:49:35Z Fare: beach: does it matter that my asdf2017 proposal is a "demo" rather than a full paper?
2017-01-05T04:50:04Z beach: Define "matter"! :)
2017-01-05T04:50:42Z beach: I am not on the program committee this year, so I don't know how it is going to work.
2017-01-05T04:51:55Z beach: And I don't know the exact rules for the distinction between an ordinary paper and a demo.
2017-01-05T04:52:17Z beach: ... other than if it is more than 2 pages it can't be a demo.
2017-01-05T04:54:20Z beach: Fare, the link to the PDF in the SNAPL paper seems broken.
2017-01-05T04:55:12Z Fare: ouch, lemme fix that...
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2017-01-05T04:59:05Z Fare: please reload
2017-01-05T04:59:12Z Fare: the linked URL was wrong
2017-01-05T04:59:29Z beach: Works!
2017-01-05T05:00:09Z Fare: for asdf2017, I don't have time to make it more than a demo. Also I don't feel much interest for the details I'd give.
2017-01-05T05:00:52Z Fare: beach: you said submissions... what else are you working on?
2017-01-05T05:01:22Z Fare: I'm submitting at SNAPL and ELS, but have also submitted at LambdaConf and intend to submit to refuses.
2017-01-05T05:01:31Z Fare: https://refuses.github.io/
2017-01-05T05:01:33Z beach: Fare: this: http://metamodular.com/sequence-functions.pdf
2017-01-05T05:01:40Z Fare: also at ELS?
2017-01-05T05:01:50Z beach: Fare and this: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
2017-01-05T05:01:53Z beach: Yes, ELS.
2017-01-05T05:02:25Z Fare: I submitted 4 proposals to LambdaConf, but should probably retire the 2 that I'm sending to SNAPL and Refusés.
2017-01-05T05:03:29Z beach: Fare: I think I will only have time to capture superficial stuff in the SNAPL paper.  Trying to understand it well enough to catch real problems would take more time than what is available.
2017-01-05T05:05:46Z beach: WOW, you use the word "category" in the first sentence without a reference.  Many readers will not catch the fact that you are referring to category theory, since "category" is a common word, and most people on this planet are not that familiar with category theory.
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2017-01-05T05:07:33Z adlai introduced the dad to it over dinner this week. sadly he couldn't just "subclass of DGs, the ones with transitive links", but it doesn't actually take that many words more
2017-01-05T05:09:08Z beach: Fare: What is "arrows between the same nodes" supposed to mean?
2017-01-05T05:11:50Z beach: Fare: This is going to be tricky.  I will not be able to do a very good job in the time at my disposal, especially if I need to give you my remarks in time for you to fix and resubmit.
2017-01-05T05:13:37Z beach: Fare: French authors use "X (resp Y) .... is V (resp W)" a lot.  Please don't do that in English.  It is better to repeat the sentence.
2017-01-05T05:14:13Z beach: "X ... is V.  Similarly, Y ... is W."
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2017-01-05T05:16:15Z beach: Fare: "allows discrete computations to be implemented with discrete computations"?
2017-01-05T05:18:28Z Fare: beach: thanks a lot
2017-01-05T05:19:00Z beach: I'll do my best.  I think it's best I send remarks by email.  It is not really on topic here as far as I can tell.
2017-01-05T05:19:50Z Fare: full subcategory: the nodes of O are a subset of nodes of C. Given two nodes o and o', the set (O.arrows o o') is equal to (C.arrows (j o) (j o'))
2017-01-05T05:20:18Z Fare: it's a common definition in category theory.
2017-01-05T05:20:29Z beach: I wouldn't know.
2017-01-05T05:21:10Z beach: While I could read up on and understand category theory, it is not practical for me to do it before the deadline.
2017-01-05T05:22:04Z Fare: of course
2017-01-05T05:22:16Z beach: Again, I'll do my best.
2017-01-05T05:23:11Z beach takes a break.  It's been a very busy morning, and it's not even daylight outside yet.
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2017-01-05T05:23:42Z Fare: only thing you need to know: 1- it's got nodes and arrows (mathematicians usually call them "objects" and "morphisms"), 2- arrows with compatible end/start can be composed internally to the category and each node has an identity arrow to itself that is neutral for composition, 3- functors preserve the composition structure
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2017-01-05T05:24:54Z adlai apologizes, but the urge is too strong: 4- a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors
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2017-01-05T05:25:01Z Fare: and 4- it's a practical choice for a unifying paradigm because mathematicians have studied it so much, and it maps well with logic (e.g. Agda, Coq, etc.)
2017-01-05T05:25:28Z beach: Fare: It looks like it would be more practical for you to ask adlai to read the paper.
2017-01-05T05:25:29Z Fare: adlai: a monoid is a category with only one node.
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2017-01-05T05:25:47Z Fare: adlai: can you proofread my paper? https://github.com/fare/fci2017
2017-01-05T05:25:49Z adlai: Fare: if you're serious about the word 'practical' in there, maybe i need to take a serious crack at getting my friend to explain what he wants to dissertate about next year
2017-01-05T05:26:13Z adlai: Fare: not this second, i have intro linear algebra in 95 minutes ;_;
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2017-01-05T05:26:27Z Fare: the use of category theory in my paper is trivial -- you don't need to know more than the 4 points above.
2017-01-05T05:26:42Z Fare: adlai: possible before friday?
2017-01-05T05:27:13Z adlai: sure
2017-01-05T05:27:18Z Fare: yay
2017-01-05T05:27:36Z beach: Fare: You credit me with way more knowledge in mathematics and theoretical computer science than I have fresh in my mind: "composed end/start"?  "composed internally"? "composition structure"?
2017-01-05T05:27:53Z adlai: no guarantees about the quality of said proofreading, i'm much better at spotting broken references than broken logic
2017-01-05T05:28:01Z beach: Heh!
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2017-01-05T05:33:11Z Bike: is the "resp" thing french? i'm used to that in papers, if not conversation
2017-01-05T05:34:02Z adlai bets short -espectively
2017-01-05T05:34:08Z Bike: well, yes
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2017-01-05T05:44:37Z Arathnim: beach: The incremental parsing paper is neat, I'm working on a parser combinator based lisp reader, might have to see if there's a way to generalize that approach for fast re-parsing of any syntax.
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2017-01-05T05:53:36Z Fare: speaking of incremental parsing, you have of course all read Matthew Might's paper on parsing with derivatives...
2017-01-05T05:54:00Z Bike: i think i actually have. spooky.
2017-01-05T05:55:21Z beach: Arathnim: Glad you like it.
2017-01-05T05:56:36Z beach: Bike: Native speakers of French have a tendency to complicate their writing.  And this tendency spills over when they write English, something English is not well suited for.
2017-01-05T05:57:41Z Fare: bed time for me. Nity nite! (updated fci.pdf based on feedback so far)
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2017-01-05T07:56:38Z XdilaudidX: Hey fellas!  So, I got Open Genera up and running...
2017-01-05T07:57:07Z XdilaudidX: I'm no programmer (at least not in the classically defined sense)
2017-01-05T07:57:20Z XdilaudidX: but I love Genera.
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2017-01-05T08:09:08Z XdilaudidX: If anyone else uses it, see if DK Schmidt will let you have a peek at the backup tapes.
2017-01-05T08:09:52Z XdilaudidX: There was a GUI somewhere there, as a "private project", kind of Windows-like if I recall, by the name of Jinn or Genie.
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2017-01-05T12:10:56Z chream: Hi I posted a style related question on reddit. Any short thoughts on this? https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/5m5zn9/question_on_styleefficiency/
2017-01-05T12:11:22Z chream: been driving my insane not knowing what is the "correct" way
2017-01-05T12:13:17Z varjag: removed
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2017-01-05T12:20:36Z Zhivago: Correct is meaningless without a metric.
2017-01-05T12:22:41Z White_Flame: style means indent as emacs/slime does, annotate *specials* and +constants+ properly, don't use macros when functions would suffice
2017-01-05T12:23:15Z White_Flame: as far as semantic programming decisions go, there's many ways to do things, and many ways to invent new ways of doing things, see the channel title.  Have fun
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2017-01-05T12:24:54Z sjl: chream: I just see [removed] at that link
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2017-01-05T12:25:21Z axion: Judginjg by the post title, I am guessing this wasn't actually a question of style.
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2017-01-05T12:27:43Z John[Lisbeth]: I want to make some syntactic sugar
2017-01-05T12:27:52Z John[Lisbeth]: but I need the recipe
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2017-01-05T12:34:21Z chream: sjl: check reddit/r/lisp for the thread. I guess we cant post links (?).
2017-01-05T12:34:42Z chream: White_Flame: Ok so its a semantic question. would love some thoughts instead of debating details.
2017-01-05T12:34:42Z sjl: weird
2017-01-05T12:34:51Z sjl: when I click through the main subreddit I do see it
2017-01-05T12:37:35Z axion: I do not
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2017-01-05T12:37:49Z White_Flame: I see it now, same link as pasted above
2017-01-05T12:37:55Z White_Flame: I"m not a reddit user, so I have no idea what's up
2017-01-05T12:38:49Z White_Flame: but this example really doesn't explain what you're trying to do
2017-01-05T12:39:10Z White_Flame: the code is all very generically named to the point of non-informativeness
2017-01-05T12:40:29Z axion: Yes, I can't really make sense what it is they are trying to do, but it probably comes down to usage pattern choices.
2017-01-05T12:40:59Z White_Flame: and how far you want to abstract some activity is really project-dependent
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2017-01-05T12:41:30Z White_Flame: ie, (do-everything-for-me some-value) vs (do-this-to-that  value object context etc)
2017-01-05T12:41:53Z White_Flame: but if you just build up simple tools, you can always have convenience functions built on top that call them
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2017-01-05T12:45:30Z chream: hmm I think this is a very general choice one has to make. Lets say I pass an object to a method. This method needs both the object, information nested in the object and information nesten within the nestet information. I could write util functions that take as parameters: the object, nested information, and nested-nested information. OR I could write util functions that allways just take the object. (And all the nesting is done in the
2017-01-05T12:46:11Z chream: ah ok this is confusing. ill think of a good way to show it.
2017-01-05T12:46:19Z White_Flame: honestly, that's all just micro-details that don't really matter
2017-01-05T12:46:22Z White_Flame: either for speed or usability
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2017-01-05T12:47:02Z sjl: there was a usenet post or something that would be helpful here, but I can't seem to find it with google right now :\
2017-01-05T12:47:10Z axion: As for a style question, I am currently debating abbreviating argument symbols for LAMBDA forms. I've seen this done a lot in the wild and I can understand why, but at the same time I enjoy having descriptive names.
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2017-01-05T12:47:26Z sjl: it was talking about whether map/loop is more readable, and how the real issue is making good self-contained functions
2017-01-05T12:48:57Z sjl: dammit, I should have pinboarded it
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2017-01-05T12:57:02Z chream: anyone know of a portability library for MOP. Working on something using sb-pcl::method-combination-options object, sb-mop:generic-function-methods object, sb-pcl:method-specializers object. ie mostly reader functions for metaobjects.
2017-01-05T12:57:23Z axion: closer-mop?
2017-01-05T12:58:16Z Xach: closer-mop is exactly it
2017-01-05T12:58:19Z chream: nope, I havent found at least
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2017-01-05T12:58:38Z chream: had to write this for example
2017-01-05T12:58:40Z chream: (defmethod method-combination-options ((object method-combination))   #+sbcl (sb-pcl::method-combination-options object)   #+ccl (ccl::method-combination-options object)   #+allegro (excl::method-combination-options object)   #+ecl (mop::method-combination-options object))
2017-01-05T12:59:41Z Xach: chream: look at https://github.com/pcostanza/closer-mop
2017-01-05T12:59:54Z Xach: chream: it is a great project and i think it will help you
2017-01-05T13:01:21Z chream: already using it. Using :closer-common-lisp as default as well. but some reader functions are not in :closer-mop. At least I cant find them.
2017-01-05T13:01:25Z chream: but thanks!
2017-01-05T13:01:46Z Xach: ok
2017-01-05T13:02:48Z Xach: chream: I wonder if there is a reason why it is absent from closer-mop
2017-01-05T13:04:00Z chream: Xach: yeah I was wondering as well. Might put together something and make a pull request if Im satisfied.
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2017-01-05T13:09:45Z malice`: chream: regarding performance part of your question, I wouldn't worry much
2017-01-05T13:10:01Z axion: beach: Got a minute?
2017-01-05T13:10:03Z sjl: this is the post I was thinking of about "one function per function" https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/9SKZ5YJUmBg/Fj05OZQomzIJ
2017-01-05T13:11:16Z malice`: 1) it's still linear complexity, 2) some implementations *might* optimize it(e.g. sbcl caches last gethash; some implementations might choose to do the same with assoc). 3) the performance hit wouldn't matter for 99,9% of applications anyway 4) you don't use alists where performance matters
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2017-01-05T13:15:15Z chream: malice: yes I was thinking as much. Thanks! There is also the question of amount of code as well. I would have to access the value with a let binding (even nested if needed) for ALL functions in the top let binding. But I find this worth it. Especially since it (the let binding) can be easily parallized with lparallel.
2017-01-05T13:15:46Z beach: axion: Sure.
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2017-01-05T13:16:16Z axion: beach: I have a question regarding: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump/blob/master/Binary-tree/docstrings-english.lisp
2017-01-05T13:16:33Z beach: axion: I'm listening.
2017-01-05T13:16:45Z axion: beach: What editor are you using, or are you manually aligning subsequent line columns for those strings?
2017-01-05T13:17:01Z beach: I think I did that manually.
2017-01-05T13:17:09Z axion: Ok that is all, thanks :)
2017-01-05T13:17:19Z beach: Heh! OK.
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2017-01-05T13:22:56Z malice`: chream: though I guess I'd prefer version 1, since if something has to work on entry, I'd expect function to accept the entry
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2017-01-05T13:41:25Z borodust: axion: i sometimes use (format nil "~{~A~}" '("strings " "that " "gonna be " "correctly " "autoaligned in emacs"))
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2017-01-05T13:41:28Z mood: axion: If you align the second line properly and use M-q in Emacs, it'll align subsequent lines in the string the same as well. Probably doesn't work with the ~@'s though
2017-01-05T13:42:26Z borodust: one might also do  "~{~A~^~@~}" probably or whatever the correct control string is)
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2017-01-05T13:45:17Z borodust: or "~{~A~~^ }", meh ;p
2017-01-05T13:45:30Z borodust: *"~{~A~^ ~}"
2017-01-05T13:45:32Z borodust: jeez
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2017-01-05T13:58:11Z beach: Hmm, it looks like I have a good use case for "stealth mixins".
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2017-01-05T13:59:00Z beach: ESA provides a mixin class for BUFFER, but I want the code for Second Climacs to be as independent of ESA as possible, certainly at the level of a buffer.
2017-01-05T14:00:03Z beach: I think the solution might be to turn a subclass of ESA-BUFFER into a stealth mixin of the BUFFER class of Second Climacs.
2017-01-05T14:01:08Z beach: For those who don't know about stealth mixins: https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/aswec/2007/2778/00/27780111-abs.html
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2017-01-05T14:03:35Z flip214: beach: "INDEX TERMS
2017-01-05T14:03:36Z flip214: null
2017-01-05T14:03:44Z flip214: should at least be () or NIL ;)
2017-01-05T14:03:54Z beach: Heh!
2017-01-05T14:04:06Z flip214: brrr, "FULL ARTICLE [ ] PDF [.] BUY"
2017-01-05T14:04:28Z beach: Yeah, I am afraid I don't have a PDF either.
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2017-01-05T14:05:41Z flip214: ah, right. you wrote "for those who don't know...", not "for those that are interested".
2017-01-05T14:06:18Z beach: Yeah, can't do better than that.  The code is in Gsharp though.  Only a few dozen lines.
2017-01-05T14:06:49Z beach now suspects that he will be asked to provide the location of the repository for Gsharp.
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2017-01-05T14:08:03Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/gsharp/
2017-01-05T14:08:13Z beach: Only the tar download works, it seems.
2017-01-05T14:08:26Z XdilaudidX: Hey guys, anyone got gpled or mit licenced software for open genera?
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2017-01-05T14:09:16Z XdilaudidX: I've been running open genera, coding a little bit at a time, trying to get at least the user land up to fairly modern standards.
2017-01-05T14:10:00Z XdilaudidX: I might even have a bugfix for genera with modern x/xorg
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2017-01-05T15:14:56Z bmilk: hi guys...I want to know some recently news about cl. It's dead?
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2017-01-05T15:15:32Z Xach: No deader than usual.
2017-01-05T15:16:25Z phoe_: bmilk: no, why?
2017-01-05T15:16:32Z phoe_: I'm writing Common Lisp as we speak.
2017-01-05T15:16:42Z varjag: me2
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2017-01-05T15:17:14Z phoe_: https://i.sli.mg/8mgOFI.png
2017-01-05T15:17:20Z bmilk: In a Chinese lisp group, they said so. I am confused
2017-01-05T15:17:49Z phoe_: bmilk: well, they have words, I have proof.
2017-01-05T15:19:15Z bmilk: haha...thank you.
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2017-01-05T15:23:47Z flip214: I've got a reader macro that, upon encountering my macro character, reads the next characters, defines a symbol (with the same case) in some package,
2017-01-05T15:24:07Z flip214: sets its value to itself (mirroring the self-evaluation of keywords), and returns the symbol.
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2017-01-05T15:24:30Z flip214: but that doesn't work when some FASL only gets loaded, because then the symbol won't have its value.
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2017-01-05T15:25:06Z flip214: So I tried to return (LOAD-TIME-VALUE (progn (setf (symbol-value 'sym) 'sym))) instead,
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2017-01-05T15:25:33Z flip214: but that gives problems when somebody quotes the symbol (eg. for a GETHASH, like would be done for other symbols).
2017-01-05T15:25:52Z flip214: What can I do to make that work?
2017-01-05T15:26:44Z flip214: the reader macro can't simply inject a (EVAL-WHEN (load) (setf ...)), because that could be anywhere in the code. Right?
2017-01-05T15:27:14Z flip214: or is an eval-when (load) moved to the toplevel during compilation?
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2017-01-05T15:30:51Z phoe_: flip214: what problems?
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2017-01-05T15:33:58Z bmilk slaps phoe_ around a bit with a large trout
2017-01-05T15:34:20Z phoe_: geez
2017-01-05T15:34:30Z phoe_: been ages since I saw that line
2017-01-05T15:34:44Z flip214: well, GETHASH gets (QUOTE ...) as key and doesn't find the correct data.
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2017-01-05T15:34:59Z flip214: with the symbol only it did work fine, because 'a and a evaluated both to 'a.
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2017-01-05T15:35:28Z phoe_: so now you have (quote (load-time-value ...))?
2017-01-05T15:35:37Z flip214: reading eval-when using that with :LOAD is only allowed on top-level
2017-01-05T15:35:40Z flip214: yes
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2017-01-05T15:36:08Z phoe_: so you have trouble when the form is not evaluated. hm.
2017-01-05T15:36:38Z flip214: I'd like to avoid forbidding 'a, because that's what lisp programmers are used to...
2017-01-05T15:37:03Z flip214: even if the shorter form a is available (with that macro character only, of course)
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2017-01-05T15:37:24Z phoe_: no idea how to help you here. (load-time-value ...) gets spliced in the place of that reader macro during read-time, and during read-time we cannot really get any context of the symbol.
2017-01-05T15:37:45Z phoe_: So we cannot read the fact that we are inside the QUOTE context.
2017-01-05T15:38:06Z flip214: and deep within some lisp form I can't put a form for toplevel processing during load-time, right?
2017-01-05T15:39:40Z flip214: well, my reader macro could write/extend some other file that gets read after asdf processing,
2017-01-05T15:39:54Z flip214: and find out which symbols to set from there...
2017-01-05T15:40:11Z pjb: flip214: you might be able to solve it by definining make-load-form methods on each of those self evaluating symbols of yours.
2017-01-05T15:41:52Z flip214: hmmm, sounds a bit complicated, too
2017-01-05T15:41:57Z flip214: but interesting
2017-01-05T15:42:20Z flip214: my current idea was to have asdf set the symbol values after loading a file
2017-01-05T15:42:23Z pjb: This is the standard mechanism to do it.  Not our fault if you try to apply it to a simple self evaluating symbol.
2017-01-05T15:42:35Z pjb: why don't you use keywords?
2017-01-05T15:43:28Z pjb: flip214: it's more complicated to try to do it separately, since you have to deal with compilation environment, load-time environment, execute environment, and the crossing of data between those environment (the list of symbols that you need to initialize), it's not a simple problem.
2017-01-05T15:43:31Z flip214: pjb: because the reader will destroy the character case; and because I don't want to clutter the keyword package with all the things I'm going to put in there
2017-01-05T15:43:43Z pjb: flip214: return keywords!
2017-01-05T15:43:57Z pjb: (intern string-read-case-sensitively "KEYWORD")
2017-01-05T15:43:59Z pjb: and you're done.
2017-01-05T15:44:11Z flip214: well, all these symbols will be in exactly one package, so I only need to check this one
2017-01-05T15:44:29Z flip214: pjb: but that doesn't read that nicely, does it?
2017-01-05T15:44:34Z pjb: Now, you may also import keywords to other packages.
2017-01-05T15:44:56Z pjb: That reads very nicely: !FooBar --> :|FooBar|
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2017-01-05T15:45:13Z flip214: $:MyFunkySymbol   does an INTERN, anyway
2017-01-05T15:45:22Z flip214: hmmm
2017-01-05T15:45:35Z pjb: Yes, now you intern in keyword to get the self evaluation, and you import to your package to collect the list.
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2017-01-05T15:54:00Z drmeister: Can this be a type?   '(or :a :b :c)     or '(and symbol (or :a :b :c))
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2017-01-05T15:55:12Z drmeister: (member :a :b :c)?
2017-01-05T15:55:19Z beach: That's different.
2017-01-05T15:55:35Z beach: In the first case, I would think :a :b and :c would have to be defined as types.
2017-01-05T15:56:12Z flip214: pjb: grrr, not that easy.... I generated code with symbols from that package, and that doesn't work any more.
2017-01-05T15:56:15Z flip214:  :|port| is a keyword, and cannot be used as a local variable.
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2017-01-05T15:58:04Z beach: drmeister: So you define :a to be a type, :b to be a type, and :c to be a type, then '(or :a :b :c) is a type.
2017-01-05T15:58:49Z beach: '(member :a :b :c) is the type consisting of those three symbols.
2017-01-05T15:58:55Z drmeister: Sorry - I wasn't clear.   I'd like the type to be composed of keyword symbols that are in the set '(:a :b :c)
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2017-01-05T15:59:19Z beach: (member :a :b :c)
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2017-01-05T16:05:16Z drmeister: Excellent - thank you.  I'm composing a type error message when an incorrect parameter is passed to an LLVM function.
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2017-01-05T16:06:30Z drmeister: When C++ functions need C++ enum values as arguments I create a translator from Common Lisp keyword symbols to C++ enum values.   If an improper argument is passed that the translator doesn't recognize I want it to signal a type error.
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2017-01-05T16:07:45Z flip214: pjb: want to know how to get an unbound symbol in keyword? import it from another package...
2017-01-05T16:08:37Z pjb: You cannot, symbols in keywords are declared as constants.
2017-01-05T16:08:51Z pjb: You didn't say originally that you wanted them to be non-constant.
2017-01-05T16:08:59Z pjb: So you will have to use the make-load-form solution.
2017-01-05T16:09:40Z flip214: pjb: I want them to be constant. eq to themselves, right away!
2017-01-05T16:09:51Z flip214: but right now I got a :symbol that was unbound...
2017-01-05T16:09:58Z pjb: You cannot use constant variables as variable variables.
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2017-01-05T16:14:04Z flip214: no, but by returning my own keywords from a reader macro I loose the readers' implementation of defining them.
2017-01-05T16:14:16Z flip214: at least, that's my interpretation.
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2017-01-05T16:15:40Z pjb: flip214: it's not the reader that makes keywords, it's INTERN.
2017-01-05T16:15:51Z flip214: and using the keyword package has another disadvantage... previously I would accept keywords, but use their _lowercase_ symbol-names as symbols when looking up data
2017-01-05T16:16:05Z flip214: pjb: but does INTERN set the value and const-ness for keywords, too?
2017-01-05T16:16:11Z pjb: yes.
2017-01-05T16:16:37Z pjb: This is why I proposed to use keywords.  But since you use :|port| as a local variable, you cannot use keywords.
2017-01-05T16:16:49Z flip214: why did I get an unbound keyword, then?
2017-01-05T16:17:07Z pjb: I've seen no such error.
2017-01-05T16:17:08Z flip214: and I already changed the symbol that's used for argument names to a normal one
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2017-01-05T16:20:23Z flip214: phoe_: pjb: thanks for all the help, have to feed the kids. Really appreciated!
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2017-01-05T17:45:40Z axion: Which doc-type do I use with DOCUMENTATION for CLOS slots?
2017-01-05T17:47:13Z sjl: axion: spec says impl-defined :(
2017-01-05T17:47:16Z sjl: > This standard prescribes no means to retrieve the documentation strings for individual slots specified in a defclass form,
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2017-01-05T17:47:45Z axion: Ah, figures
2017-01-05T17:48:53Z sjl: closer-mop might have something
2017-01-05T17:50:42Z Bike: (documentation (find slot-name (mop:class-slots class) :key #'mop:slot-definition-name) t)
2017-01-05T17:50:45Z Bike: so easy.
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2017-01-05T17:53:04Z axion: While it is easy, it is not very intuitive for users. I am defining documentation in a separate file instead of contained in their respective forms.
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2017-01-05T17:53:30Z Bike: i was joking, this is ridiculous.
2017-01-05T17:54:02Z axion: No worries. Offline documentation it is for slots
2017-01-05T17:54:05Z Bike: that said, certain operators may print slot documentation as part of something else. DESCRIBE for example
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2017-01-05T18:01:56Z axion: Also, for CLOS class definitions, should the doc-type be 'structure or 'type? Both seem to return the same thing, which may only be because classes define types of the same name. In that case, what is the recommended style here?
2017-01-05T18:03:15Z Bike: probably type. i didn't know structure was even allowed.
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2017-01-05T18:24:40Z flip214: help about handler-bind and (values), please.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/335801
2017-01-05T18:25:04Z flip214: the :no-error case aborts with invalid number of arguments: 0
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2017-01-05T18:25:41Z Bike: wow, that's pretty obscure.
2017-01-05T18:26:05Z flip214: glad to be of service ;)
2017-01-05T18:26:09Z Bike: the no-error cause receives the values of the form. something like (multiple-value-call (lambda (result) (print result)) (foo arg)) here.
2017-01-05T18:26:20Z flip214: I'd expected the :no-error case to simple receive an empty list
2017-01-05T18:26:24Z flip214: but it doesn't work.
2017-01-05T18:26:39Z Bike: right. foo is actually returning no values, and this is one of the very few cases where that doesn't mean nil.
2017-01-05T18:27:25Z Bike: you could do (:no-error (&optional result) ...) to get the behavior you expected.
2017-01-05T18:27:30Z flip214: (handler-case (values) (:no-error (e) nil)) in the REPL is the minimum, I guess
2017-01-05T18:27:43Z Bike: ...note that if foo returns more than one value that will also fail for similar reasons.
2017-01-05T18:28:07Z Bike: the point is that handler-case through multiple-value-call is stricter about multiple values than  you are used to.
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2017-01-05T18:28:31Z flip214: ah yes, right.
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2017-01-05T18:28:54Z flip214: the multiple values get translated to an argument _each_, not simply to a list. ?
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2017-01-05T18:29:57Z Bike: multiple-value-call is strict. if we limit to the case of one argument form, (multiple-value-call #'foo (bar)), then what happens is that foo receives exactly the values returned by bar as its arguments.
2017-01-05T18:30:08Z Bike: if that's no values foo gets no arguments.
2017-01-05T18:30:34Z flip214: thank you very much for the explanation!
2017-01-05T18:30:52Z Bike: i think it's pretty intuitive, it's just that practically nothing else in the language doesn't put in some extra leeway for you
2017-01-05T18:32:03Z flip214: thank you!
2017-01-05T18:32:09Z Bike: no problemo
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2017-01-05T18:43:06Z sebboh: Hello!  How might I generate these docs locally? https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-graph/user-guide.html  ...I *think* that it is using docstrings from the lisp source itself.  ala https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-graph/blob/master/website/source/user-guide.mmd#L68
2017-01-05T18:43:27Z sebboh: The reason I ask is that the source is currently newer than those published docs.
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2017-01-05T18:49:44Z Bike: it looks like there's a .tmproj, suggesting you can put this together from TextMate somehow?
2017-01-05T18:49:47Z Xach: sebboh: i think gary king has his own doc creation pipeline.
2017-01-05T18:50:09Z Bike: don't see a makefile or nuthin
2017-01-05T18:50:16Z axion: Looks to be the case. I had problems with that library that I can't recall. I had better luck with http://eschulte.github.io/graph/ . Might be worth a try also.
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2017-01-05T18:55:05Z XdilaudidX:  Does anyone on here condone learning lisp as a first language?
2017-01-05T18:55:13Z Bike: sure
2017-01-05T18:55:21Z XdilaudidX: Instead of something like c or python?
2017-01-05T18:55:54Z Bike: C's not a good start anyway
2017-01-05T18:56:04Z XdilaudidX: I don't consider myself a programmer because I don't know the slightest bit of C
2017-01-05T18:56:21Z axion: I don't think one needs to know C to be a programmer
2017-01-05T18:56:43Z XdilaudidX: Yet I have a perfectly good office calculator in Lisp and soon to be an IRC client
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2017-01-05T18:57:04Z XdilaudidX: Somehow the linux guys think different.
2017-01-05T18:57:11Z Xach: Wherever you start, don't stop.
2017-01-05T18:58:28Z XdilaudidX: Can writing lisp code even be defined as programming?  I just get this nagging feeling that I'm basically using visual basic for big boys.
2017-01-05T18:59:13Z Bike: don't subject yourself to ridiculous patriarchal contests
2017-01-05T18:59:19Z XdilaudidX: Even though I've tried.  I've got me a working Genera distro and I'm writing actual code on that
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2017-01-05T19:00:44Z MrLawrence: Hello, is there a way to define variables that are only accessible in a particular file? like C static variables
2017-01-05T19:01:24Z Bike: not really, and in C it's actually a translation unit.
2017-01-05T19:01:28Z XdilaudidX: And today someone told me common lisp is dead.  Never mind that I can write a quick and dirty 6 line lisp script that does your C programs job.
2017-01-05T19:01:44Z Bike: usually you'd just define a dynamic variable (defvar, defparameter) and not use it outside of wherever.
2017-01-05T19:02:51Z XdilaudidX: It's only kept me wanting to keep Lisping.  Teco is a dead language and yet I use it as my day to day editor.
2017-01-05T19:02:58Z MrLawrence: I see, thanks
2017-01-05T19:03:09Z axion: Does anyone know how quickdocs and other documentation extraction tools cope with ~ and ~@ format directives?
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2017-01-05T19:04:50Z axion: Is it even good style to have a really long docstring on one line, but readable in a file with the ~ directive?
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2017-01-05T19:35:22Z XdilaudidX: Does anyone use common lisp/zetaliap on genera like I do/
2017-01-05T19:35:23Z XdilaudidX: ?
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2017-01-05T19:45:59Z eschatologist: XdilaudidX: there are a few peole who still use Genera
2017-01-05T19:46:14Z eschatologist: XdilaudidX: what are you using, a LispM or Open Genera on Alpha or x86-64?
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2017-01-05T19:46:38Z XdilaudidX: I'm using x64 Genera.
2017-01-05T19:46:39Z eschatologist has an XL400 running 8.3
2017-01-05T19:47:22Z XdilaudidX: In fact, my work in Lisp is basically to write the programs users of other platforms take for granted.
2017-01-05T19:47:49Z XdilaudidX: A gopher client, a calculator, a Web browser...
2017-01-05T19:48:39Z XdilaudidX: Basically, if you weren't a programmer and someone sat you down in front of a LispM, what would you want to do your work?
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2017-01-05T19:52:16Z eschatologist: I'm not sure why someone would sit me down in front of a LispM if I wasn't a programmer.
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2017-01-05T19:53:16Z eschatologist: Having some things in Genera would be convenient for not having to switch systems, but I don't think, relatively speaking, that it's worth the investment to be writing web browsers and things like that. Even for a new system like Mezzano.
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2017-01-05T19:57:45Z prole: but we need a conkeror clone written in lisp
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2017-01-05T20:16:40Z adlai: any idea when Fare returns?
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2017-01-05T20:19:54Z XdilaudidX: sorry about that
2017-01-05T20:20:19Z XdilaudidX: yeah I'm on pc genera basically
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2017-01-05T20:26:46Z MrLawrence: If I start learning Emacs Lisp, will I have acquired bad practices when transitioning to CL generally speaking?
2017-01-05T20:26:58Z MrLawrence: I'm guessing I should be fine
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2017-01-05T20:35:14Z williamyaoh: How do I override SLIME's default indentation?
2017-01-05T20:36:31Z axion: You don't, without hacks to the source, and making your peers very unhappy.
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2017-01-05T20:39:23Z williamyaoh: Well, I was more looking to override for just one macro, but I see your point.
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2017-01-05T20:39:57Z prxq: actually, that is possible.
2017-01-05T20:40:07Z prxq: http://shinmera.github.io/trivial-indent/  ;;; don't know if it works though
2017-01-05T20:40:55Z prxq: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Semantic-indentation.html ;;; some docs on the issue
2017-01-05T20:41:41Z williamyaoh: prxq: Thanks!
2017-01-05T20:42:16Z prxq: hth
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2017-01-05T20:54:42Z pjb: MrLawrence: most of the emacs lisp code you can find around is average, and some quite medricre, even in the GNU emacs distribution itself.   However, there are still a few good things, but not many.
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2017-01-05T20:55:22Z pjb: MrLawrence: in general the code quality you'll find in CL libraries is of higher quality.
2017-01-05T20:55:35Z pjb: MrLawrence: but in any case, this doesn't prevent you to write good emacs lisp code.
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2017-01-05T21:21:38Z sebboh: ...How could I have not have found eschulte's graph library before axion mentioned it, when I have used another project of his AND spent tons on time wandering around in the intersection of CL and graphviz??
2017-01-05T21:22:00Z sebboh: Folks, CL projects have a discoverablility problem.
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2017-01-05T21:22:45Z axion: sebboh: it really is an amazing library
2017-01-05T21:23:23Z axion: Not really, (ql:system-apropos "graph")
2017-01-05T21:23:34Z axion: Is how I found it
2017-01-05T21:23:47Z Bike: "Folks, system-apropos has a discoverability problem."
2017-01-05T21:24:07Z Xach: sebboh: quickdocs.org helps a bit
2017-01-05T21:24:33Z Xach: sebboh: I have been using it a lot when I am making new stuff
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2017-01-05T21:25:57Z sebboh: axion, I see, I see... https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/565 since 2013.  I have absolutely done apropos in QL for "graph"...  I must have seen it and passed for some reason.  Or gone down some rabbit hole before getting to that result. *sigh*
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2017-01-05T21:29:03Z sebboh: Xach, thanks!  I've read docs via quickdocs before, but when linked there from somewhere like a search engine or project page. I never tried visiting the root of the domain...
2017-01-05T21:29:15Z jasom: is there a short description for each system in ql?
2017-01-05T21:29:16Z sebboh: High fives all around.
2017-01-05T21:29:33Z Xach: jasom: no. i hope to have something like that soon.
2017-01-05T21:29:41Z Xach: jasom: something accessible in the repl.
2017-01-05T21:30:01Z jasom: IIRC I've grepped through ql monthly status reports to find those before
2017-01-05T21:30:16Z sebboh: jasom: yes, as have I.
2017-01-05T21:31:10Z sebboh: http://quickdocs.org/donuts/ <-- hm!
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2017-01-05T21:35:45Z yincha: hello guys, plese tell me how use terminal codes in CL output? for example: how write this 'echo -e "\033[1;31m red \033[0m"' in CL (using (format ...))?
2017-01-05T21:36:47Z jasom: yincha: \033 is the character #\Esc in most lisp implementations
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2017-01-05T21:37:12Z jasom: so (format "~C[1;31m red ~C[0m" #\Esc #\Esc) would be one way
2017-01-05T21:37:49Z jasom: (format t "~C[1;31m red ~C[0m" #\Esc #\Esc)
2017-01-05T21:38:10Z yincha: oh, thank
2017-01-05T21:38:48Z jasom: #\Escape might be more portable; (code-char 27) is even more reliable
2017-01-05T21:38:59Z jasom: (27 is the same as octal 33)
2017-01-05T21:39:05Z sebboh: Yeah, what jsom said.  Here's a line I use to move the cursor... I think. :) (format T "~c~a" (code-char #o33) "[1A")
2017-01-05T21:41:48Z jasom: If you're doing a lot of escape codes, you might want to make a function that generates the codes for you.
2017-01-05T21:42:30Z PuercoPop: jasom: It wouldn't be to hard to code, something like http://paste.lisp.org/+773Z (or probably having an optional argument key to change what field does apropos match against. The problem is ql systems don't store that information from the asdf systems, short-description is the accessor for the name property :'(
2017-01-05T21:42:32Z pjb: yincha: I use my com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ecma048 package.
2017-01-05T21:43:29Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ecma048.html
2017-01-05T21:47:13Z yincha: pjb thank
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2017-01-05T21:57:45Z jasom: yincha: here's an example using ~/ (because there's always more than one way to do it): http://paste.lisp.org/+7740
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2017-01-05T22:18:41Z eschatologist: There's API in QL for iterating the systems it knows about, right?
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2017-01-06T00:07:23Z Xach: eschatologist: yes
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2017-01-06T00:07:41Z Xach: eschatologist: the stuff in ql-dist is the core of ql, everything else is frontend to that
2017-01-06T00:07:45Z eschatologist: Cool.
2017-01-06T00:07:47Z eschatologist: Thanks!
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2017-01-06T00:18:37Z Xach: no problemo
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2017-01-06T02:49:37Z lexicall: hi, i'm looking around in CL's condition system. i want to ask that wether CL is able to save current computing frame into some object and return to that place again in future? What's the difference with RESTART in CL and CALL/CC in scheme?
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2017-01-06T02:50:31Z Bike: restarts don't have indefinite extent, no.
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2017-01-06T02:52:13Z lexicall: and is the third-party packages like cl-cont able to do so?
2017-01-06T02:53:20Z Bike: cl-cont rewrites code into continuation passing style (by which you can do continuations in anything with first class functions)
2017-01-06T02:53:46Z Bike: i don't know what the extents are
2017-01-06T02:54:46Z lexicall: ok, thanks for your explanation.
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2017-01-06T04:15:11Z drmeister: So - I need a UTF-8 encoder/decoder in C++ for Common Lisp streams - do I just write one myself?
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2017-01-06T04:24:30Z Fare: what do you meann "in C++ for CL streams"???
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2017-01-06T04:25:24Z Fare: Bike: how does sbcl + cl-cont compare in speed to your average scheme implementation?
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2017-01-06T04:25:36Z Bike: i have no idea
2017-01-06T04:31:13Z Zhivago: I expect it would be worse than bigloo.
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2017-01-06T04:34:23Z drmeister: I think I'll just implement the encoder/decoder myself - it doesn't look too difficult.
2017-01-06T04:34:54Z Bike: famous last word?
2017-01-06T04:34:55Z Bike: s
2017-01-06T04:35:12Z drmeister: Fare - Clasp's streams (other than Gray streams) are implemented in C++.   So I need the decoder/encoder to be implemented in C++ as well.
2017-01-06T04:36:49Z Bike: http://utfcpp.sourceforge.net/ this looks like it goes back and forth between utf32 and utf8, maybe what you need
2017-01-06T04:37:23Z drmeister: How bad can it be?   I want READ-CHAR to read a byte and if it's a UTF-8 start byte - read up to three more and convert them into a character - correct?
2017-01-06T04:38:31Z Zhivago: It's pretty trivial. The first character tells you how many more to read.
2017-01-06T04:39:34Z Zhivago: On the other hand, why do you expect read-char to read a byte?
2017-01-06T04:40:34Z Fare: drmeister, presumably, no one else who a decoder for your streams, unless ECL has it.
2017-01-06T04:40:59Z Fare: drmeister, you mean, READ-BYTE ?
2017-01-06T04:41:13Z drmeister: I don't use ECL C code.
2017-01-06T04:41:18Z Fare: Also, in Lisp, there are various kinds of gray streams that you could reuse (or simple-streams)
2017-01-06T04:41:42Z Fare: you can't bootstrap this stuff into Lisp land?
2017-01-06T04:41:46Z drmeister: I did copy ECL's approach to streams.
2017-01-06T04:41:58Z Fare: you might be able to copy their code
2017-01-06T04:41:58Z drmeister: Fare: It's a bit late to be asking that question - and no.
2017-01-06T04:42:54Z Fare: I'm sure there are plenty of utf-8 decoders in C++ already, so it would just be a matter of tweaking them to use your read-byte.
2017-01-06T04:43:07Z drmeister: Yes, read-byte.
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2017-01-06T04:46:23Z drmeister: Nope - wait - I'm wrong.    I did more or less copy the ECL stream code.
2017-01-06T04:47:01Z drmeister: I thought I did a rough translation but now that I look at it I copied the stream code pretty faithfully, translating it into C++.
2017-01-06T04:47:15Z drmeister: I say that because I copied the encoders and decoders as well.
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2017-01-06T04:47:48Z drmeister: My problem appears to be already solved. Yay.
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2017-01-06T04:48:57Z Fare: congrats!
2017-01-06T04:49:04Z Fare: how's clasp these days/
2017-01-06T04:49:05Z Fare: ?
2017-01-06T04:49:17Z Fare: do you have more patches for ASDF ?
2017-01-06T04:49:30Z drmeister: No patches for ASDF - everything has been working fine.
2017-01-06T04:49:49Z drmeister: I spent the last couple of weeks ripping out and replacing arrays/simple-arrays/strings/bitvectors.
2017-01-06T04:49:50Z Fare: maybe patches to issue the new not-implemented-error in some cases?
2017-01-06T04:50:04Z drmeister: They were fubar - now they are Common Lisp compliant.
2017-01-06T04:50:21Z Fare: how fast/slow is the compiler these days?
2017-01-06T04:50:45Z Fare: drmeister: you're the greatest yak shaver in the universe, you know?
2017-01-06T04:51:17Z drmeister: The compiler is still slow.   I suspect its because Cleavir makes heavy use of generic functions.   I've been working towards implementing the generic function dispatch implementation that beach published.
2017-01-06T04:52:43Z pillton: Are there fast ways of computing (+ offset (* index-0 stride-0) ...) where the result is known to be valid array index?
2017-01-06T04:52:45Z drmeister: Clasp now has UTF-32 strings and 8-bit character strings.
2017-01-06T04:55:14Z Bike: like an integer fma? i would guess not especially...
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2017-01-06T04:59:20Z Bike: if i want a class slot to have a default value computed from another slot, i'd do that in what, an :after on shared-initialize?
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2017-01-06T04:59:25Z pillton: Bike: Ok. Thanks.
2017-01-06T04:59:57Z Bike: i mean there's some stuff you can do. like if stride is known you can do shifts and crap instead of a multiply
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2017-01-06T05:03:28Z pillton: Bike: Yeah shared-initialize would be ok depending on your definition of default.
2017-01-06T05:07:20Z Zhivago: Pillton: Are you looking for row-major-aref?
2017-01-06T05:11:36Z pillton: Zhivago: No. The strides can be negative.
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2017-01-06T05:17:22Z pillton: Oh mask-field. Duh.
2017-01-06T05:20:39Z pillton: Zhivago: Sorry. My response must have been confusing. I interpreted row-major-aref as array-row-major-index.
2017-01-06T05:22:26Z pillton: Zhivago: That works too. Thanks.
2017-01-06T05:22:43Z pillton: ...where works means generates better code.
2017-01-06T05:23:18Z pillton: Bah...assembler.
2017-01-06T05:23:25Z pillton gives up.
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2017-01-06T05:23:54Z Zhivago: Good. :)
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2017-01-06T05:28:04Z akkad: so manardb:doclass interates. is there a way to exit on say, the first value returned matching the criteria in with-slots?
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2017-01-06T05:56:42Z akkad: Is there a way to compare clos object references in something a bit less awkward than this? (string-equal (format nil "~A" myclass-instance1) (format nil "~A" myclass-someinstance))
2017-01-06T05:57:47Z Bike: ...wha?
2017-01-06T05:57:59Z akkad: yes.
2017-01-06T05:58:03Z akkad: i know....
2017-01-06T05:58:12Z Bike: why are you doing that? in what way are you trying to compare them?
2017-01-06T05:58:41Z akkad: yeah. iterating through all instances of an object class, and trying to find the one that matches. without comparing actual slot-value
2017-01-06T05:59:04Z akkad: and since clos equality is not obvious to me
2017-01-06T05:59:35Z Bike: instances don't have any intrinsic equivalence classes except for eq-ness.
2017-01-06T05:59:48Z Bike: usually you'd define one for whatever you're doing. like comparing the slot values or whatever.
2017-01-06T06:00:30Z akkad: fetching from manardb, and wanted to avoid n number slot-value compares if one could compare the object actually stored in the slot itself
2017-01-06T06:00:51Z akkad: obviously no idea what i am doing.
2017-01-06T06:01:07Z cyberlard is now known as LK-II
2017-01-06T06:01:12Z Bike: so... do you want to consider two /different/ instances equal? as in, instances from different calls to make-instance or whatever.
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2017-01-06T06:03:01Z akkad: it should be a set, without dupes afa slot values go. the label as seen by format seems consistent
2017-01-06T06:03:16Z vtomole: lfam: I'm still getting "can't install grub on sda" for qemu
2017-01-06T06:03:18Z akkad: nvm. I'm just doing this horribly
2017-01-06T06:03:35Z Bike: ...i mean... if you'r ecomparing the strings you're comparing whatever is output by your print-object methods
2017-01-06T06:03:40Z Bike: and i don't know what those are
2017-01-06T06:03:51Z Bike: and i have no idea whether you answered my question or not.
2017-01-06T06:05:12Z akkad: bike:  https://gist.github.com/c0f35a94f74f726c11b3cb4a58c216cc is the actual code. the second function is the attempt to reduce compares/slot-value dereferencing. given srcaddr/dstaddr objects are far fewer than total flow objects
2017-01-06T06:06:43Z axion: akkad: You messaged me yesterday looking for ways to improve performance. You can pretty much forget about it anytime you use FORMAT for starters.
2017-01-06T06:07:00Z axion: And this is not how you check objects for equality anyway
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2017-01-06T06:07:49Z akkad: absolutely. was just testing it
2017-01-06T06:08:31Z akkad: axion: it was a secret, that I seek performance. :P
2017-01-06T06:09:09Z axion: Have you ever considered that the ancient manardb is the main bottleneck? I mean have you done your data transformations without touching the database first?
2017-01-06T06:09:11Z akkad: hmm cliki down again
2017-01-06T06:09:42Z akkad: yes. i was using postgres/mysql/sqlite for the last 2 years, and manardb was a major improvement.
2017-01-06T06:10:16Z axion: That doesn't say much. Any real database can be slow with an improper schema or for the usage patterns
2017-01-06T06:10:34Z axion: Esepcially without tx's
2017-01-06T06:10:47Z akkad: sure. please assume it was all the worst possible use case
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2017-01-06T06:10:53Z axion: Ha
2017-01-06T06:10:57Z akkad: no tranactions, or COPY.
2017-01-06T06:11:30Z akkad: my shitty code is the bottle neck, and silly ideas
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2017-01-06T06:12:53Z axion: You could always start over, and do it correctly in a fraction of the time. I would modularize it a bit more than the code you showed me though. Don't couple it to 10 different libraries preventing it from being properly optimized or maintained
2017-01-06T06:14:18Z LK-II is now known as the
2017-01-06T06:15:30Z akkad: agreed.
2017-01-06T06:17:21Z axion: Good luck, and I am sorry if I am being critical. If you do decide to go that route and need help, just ask me.
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2017-01-06T06:22:01Z akkad: no, it's valid feedback
2017-01-06T06:22:03Z akkad: i appreciate it
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2017-01-06T07:24:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-06T07:59:00Z Fare: beach: good morning!
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2017-01-06T07:59:28Z Fare: new improved version of my https://github.com/fare/fci2017
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2017-01-06T08:02:55Z beach: Fare: It's pretty tight for me.  I'll do my best during the day.
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2017-01-06T14:13:47Z axion: Anyone mind helping with some boolean logic I can't seem to get right?
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2017-01-06T14:18:06Z beach: Sure.
2017-01-06T14:18:40Z axion: I am feeling really stupid and deleted all my attempts of failure. I made a paste of what I am trying to do: http://paste.lisp.org/display/335878
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2017-01-06T14:21:51Z beach: (subseq ... 2 5)?
2017-01-06T14:22:05Z beach: Should that be 3 and 6
2017-01-06T14:22:26Z axion checks
2017-01-06T14:22:41Z beach: Or are you counting the first character as 1?
2017-01-06T14:23:04Z axion: yes, I am, sorry.
2017-01-06T14:23:32Z beach: That sounds confusing, especially since Common Lisp starts counting at 0.
2017-01-06T14:23:49Z axion: I know, I am following a specification. Sorry for the confusion
2017-01-06T14:24:17Z beach: OK, I think I understand it.  What is it that you need help with?
2017-01-06T14:25:03Z axion: I would like to come up with one form that short-circuits with the result as early as possible, while not erroring for subseq indices
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2017-01-06T14:26:14Z axion: I think perhaps this is incredibly easy and I just need sleep. Hence the second pair of eyes. If not, don't worry about it :)
2017-01-06T14:27:21Z beach: Isn't it just (or <1> (and (= (length ... 12)) (or <2> <3> <4>)))?
2017-01-06T14:27:54Z beach: By the way, if efficiency is somewhat important, don't take the SUBSEQ.
2017-01-06T14:28:12Z axion: Maybe. I'll see.
2017-01-06T14:28:14Z axion: Oh yeah?
2017-01-06T14:28:27Z beach: Yes.  You will allocate a new array then.
2017-01-06T14:28:37Z axion: Efficiency isn't that important, but what do you suggest?
2017-01-06T14:29:00Z beach: Since the number of characters you test is fixed, just test each one.
2017-01-06T14:29:36Z beach: Define local functions in-range-1 and in-range-2.
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2017-01-06T14:30:10Z axion: Ok, moment
2017-01-06T14:30:26Z beach: 1 becomes (and (not (in-range-1 (char 0))) (not (in-range-1 (char 1))))
2017-01-06T14:30:40Z beach: Sorry, 2 becomes that.
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2017-01-06T14:32:43Z beach: You can use LOOP too.
2017-01-06T14:32:56Z axion: So this is not exactly correct
2017-01-06T14:33:27Z beach: Tell me.
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2017-01-06T14:34:00Z axion: Oh sec
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2017-01-06T14:35:42Z axion: This does seem to work actually. Had a wrong char code in my test
2017-01-06T14:35:49Z axion: At first glance anyway
2017-01-06T14:36:41Z axion: Ok, well I appreciate your help. This makes sense looking at it. I am going to now take your improvement suggestion
2017-01-06T14:37:05Z beach: So we think it works?
2017-01-06T14:37:18Z axion: I am pretty sure. I haven't wrote every test case but seems to
2017-01-06T14:37:34Z beach: OK.  Glad I could help.  Get some sleep! :)
2017-01-06T14:37:39Z axion: Thanks :)
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2017-01-06T15:05:24Z drmeister: Why does the last test fail?
2017-01-06T15:05:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Zr3g3q8C/
2017-01-06T15:06:26Z drmeister: Is a simple vector filled with 0.1 not equalp to a simple vector specialized on double and filled with 0.1?
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2017-01-06T15:06:50Z drmeister: Ah - I have to fill the simple vector with 0.1D0
2017-01-06T15:06:56Z drmeister: Got it - sorry for the noise.
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2017-01-06T15:08:41Z malice: Hi all!
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2017-01-06T15:11:29Z malice: I've got a question about designing a class in CL. If you provide an accessor, does it work conceptually as a getter/setter?
2017-01-06T15:11:57Z malice: e.g. I create a class "queue". I don't want user to care how is it implemented, just to use the public interface(methods). Should I add :accessor, or not?
2017-01-06T15:12:09Z Xach: malice: here is what i do
2017-01-06T15:12:34Z Xach: malice: i start by writing the generic functions that define how i want the user to interact. then i define the class. if it is a natural fit, i make the reader/writer/accessor options add methods to the generic functions.
2017-01-06T15:13:07Z Xach: malice: otherwise, when i implement the methods for the generic function protocol, i have it use the reader/writer/accessor from the defclass to do the work, but i do not export the reader/writer/accessors.
2017-01-06T15:13:11Z Zhivago: Accessors are generally an anti-pattern in OO. But you have the choice of if you want the name of the accessor to be exported or not.
2017-01-06T15:13:51Z malice: One of the things I don't understand when I see Java code is that you have a private variable, and then "getVal", "setVal" all over the place. Why make it private then?
2017-01-06T15:14:39Z malice: Xach ah yeah, packages. I make too much code for myself and too little for others to remember about exporting from packages. This makes sense to have accessors, but not export them.
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2017-01-06T15:15:57Z malice: Xach: however, could you please reword the phrase "i make the reader/writer/accessor options add methods to the generic functions." ? Sorry for my bad english, but I don't think I understand it. Did you mean that you just define :accessor(or somethign else) option
2017-01-06T15:16:05Z sjl: malice: the idea is that if you can swap out the underlying data representation without breaking existing code
2017-01-06T15:16:06Z malice: and it created generic function automatically?
2017-01-06T15:16:23Z Xach: malice: no
2017-01-06T15:16:36Z sjl: e.g. you have Player.x and player.getX and player.setX, but now you want to store the player's location in an [x,y] vector
2017-01-06T15:16:49Z Xach: malice: I mean that say your queue might have a name, for display purposes.
2017-01-06T15:17:01Z sjl: if you're using getters and setters, you just make them poke at the vector and the code using it doesn't have to care
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2017-01-06T15:17:35Z Xach: malice: the generic function is (defgeneric name (object) ...)
2017-01-06T15:17:36Z Xach: malice: the queue definition is (defclass queue () ((name :reader name ...))) - it adds a method to the generic function. but you start with the generic function.
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2017-01-06T15:18:11Z malice: Oh, okay.
2017-01-06T15:18:17Z Xach: malice: and if it makes more sense to compute the name from some other source, that is a detail that doesn't matter to the user of the generic function. it just changes the definition of the queue object, and the (defmethod name ((object queue)) ...)
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2017-01-06T15:19:16Z pjb: malice: private variables is to avoid (setf (slot-value object 'name) "Random Name")
2017-01-06T15:19:20Z malice: sjl: I get the idea. I include getters/setters for this very reason. However, I also often see some very simple code that has getters/setters where things won't really change
2017-01-06T15:19:32Z pjb: malice: in CL this can only be avoided, if you use gensyms for the slot names.
2017-01-06T15:19:46Z pjb: (and even, you can still recover the slot names with the MOP).
2017-01-06T15:19:54Z malice: sjl: or changing the internal implementation would make no sense anyway since object is "low-level", e.g. typed node in C
2017-01-06T15:21:04Z sjl: it's possible to go overboard, but I generally try to err on the side of future-proofing things
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2017-01-06T15:21:22Z malice: pjb: yes, I'm aware. I thought that there was an idea that in CL, slot-value is low-level hackish way to get thing you want and it's not guarantteed to work across versions
2017-01-06T15:21:35Z sjl: especially in CL, I find (slot-value foo 'x) ugly
2017-01-06T15:21:45Z malice: and that any variable not defining some accessors is intended by creators not to be messed directly with, hence "private"
2017-01-06T15:21:55Z Xach: slot-value is fine to implement the details of a generic function protocol.
2017-01-06T15:22:06Z Xach: It is not particularly pretty, but it is not unreliable
2017-01-06T15:22:36Z sjl: when in doubt, read the docs to know what the maintainer considers the public API
2017-01-06T15:22:43Z sjl: except this is Lisp, so no one writes docs, so /shrug
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2017-01-06T15:24:16Z malice: Anyway, thanks for help guys!
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2017-01-06T15:36:47Z ecraven: is there any lisp that - upon redefinition of a macro - recompiles everything that uses that macro, to use the new definition?
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2017-01-06T15:37:10Z Zhivago: Probably.
2017-01-06T15:38:07Z pjb: ecraven: not that I know.  But you could probably do that yourself, by shadowing and redefining defmacro, defun, defmethod, defgeneric, and a few other macros where code can be included.
2017-01-06T15:38:10Z Zhivago: I think that clisp might effectively do that for some value of recompiles.
2017-01-06T15:38:42Z ecraven: does the hyperspec say whether this would be conforming behaviour?
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2017-01-06T15:39:26Z pjb: Yes, it would be.  The thing is that the minimal compilation (macroexpansion) can occur at run-time, in particular with interpreters.
2017-01-06T15:39:56Z Zhivago: Which is clisp's approach, iirc.
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2017-01-06T15:41:29Z Xach: ecraven: I'm not sure, but I do know some people work in interpreted mode precisely to avoid surprises with macroexpansion, and then compile when things are more settled.
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2017-01-06T15:41:59Z ecraven: thanks for all the answers!
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2017-01-06T15:42:56Z Zhivago: It may help you to avoid non-idempotent side-effecting macros. :)
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2017-01-06T18:23:29Z jasom: pjb: I thought the result of compile-file had to be with the macros already expanded in order to be conforming?
2017-01-06T18:24:38Z jasom: pjb: furthermore the macroexpansion  happens when the DEFUN is evaluated, not when the function itself is called, right?
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2017-01-06T18:33:44Z pjb: jasom: indeed, compile or compile-file will have expanded the macros.
2017-01-06T18:33:51Z pjb: jasom: but not all code is compiled.
2017-01-06T18:34:10Z devon`: Can (format t # ... '(foo bar baz)) print ... foo on the first line and indent following lines to vertically align foo, bar and baz?
2017-01-06T18:34:31Z devon`: If not, perhaps a macro expanding into something awkward like (let* ((head (format nil ...)) (indent (format nil "~%~v@T" (length head)))) (princ head) (loop for c across (format nil # '(foo bar baz)) do (princ (if (char= #\NewLine c) indent c))) (terpri))
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2017-01-06T18:44:10Z pjb: I'd say that it should be possible with ~< but I have no idea how.
2017-01-06T18:44:31Z devon`: I never got the hang of ~<
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2017-01-06T18:49:13Z jasom thought that  ~:i~<~{~A~%~}~> should do it, but it doesn't appear to
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2017-01-06T18:54:19Z scymtym: jasom: i think, a logical block is needed, i.e. (format nil "   ~@<~{~A~@:_~}~>" '(1 2 3))
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2017-01-06T19:00:29Z jasom: hmm I can't seem to get ~i to have any effect ever; slightly annoying
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2017-01-06T19:01:55Z pjb: scymtym: this doesn't work: (format t "   ~@<~{~A~@:_~^~%~}~>" '(1 2 3))
2017-01-06T19:01:58Z jasom: bah, of course ~% isn't a pplrint newline
2017-01-06T19:02:07Z jasom: need ~@:_ instead of ~%
2017-01-06T19:02:18Z pjb: This prints nothing (in ccl); I get "   123".
2017-01-06T19:02:31Z jasom: (format t "XXXXX ~@<~{~A~:@_~}~:>" '(foo bar baz))
2017-01-06T19:02:45Z pjb: (format nil "XXXXX ~@<~{~A~:@_~}~:>" '(foo bar baz)) #| --> "XXXXX foobarbaz" |#
2017-01-06T19:03:09Z jasom: pjb: that's a bug
2017-01-06T19:03:19Z jasom: pjb: does the equivalent (pprint-newline :mandatory) work?
2017-01-06T19:03:22Z pjb: ABCL, Clisp and ccl don't print the newlines.
2017-01-06T19:03:28Z pjb: Only ecl and sbcl do it.
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2017-01-06T19:04:41Z scymtym: pjb: check *PRINT-PRETTY*?
2017-01-06T19:05:00Z pjb: nil.
2017-01-06T19:05:16Z jasom: right
2017-01-06T19:05:23Z pjb: with t, no change in ccl.
2017-01-06T19:05:24Z jasom: works with *print-pretty* bound to t on ccl
2017-01-06T19:06:02Z jasom: pjb: works for me: http://paste.lisp.org/+776H
2017-01-06T19:06:06Z pjb: with t, abcl, and ccl work well for (format nil "XXXXX ~@<~{~A~:@_~}~:>" '(foo bar baz)).
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2017-01-06T19:06:30Z pjb: Yes, I tried scymtym expression, this one didn't work.
2017-01-06T19:06:54Z pjb: so (setf *print-pretty* t).
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2017-01-06T19:07:15Z scymtym: pjb: in you original response, (format t "   ~@<~{~A~@:_~^~%~}~>" '(1 2 3)), you used ~% and also ~> instead of ~:>
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2017-01-06T19:07:30Z scymtym: still no luck after correcting those?
2017-01-06T19:07:43Z pjb: On the other hand, (format nil "~10i~@<~{~A~:@_~}~:>" '(foo bar baz)) doesn't indent anything. indeed, ~i doesn't work.
2017-01-06T19:08:18Z pjb: scymtym: yes, but (format nil "   ~@<~{~A~@:_~}~>" '(1 2 3))  #| --> "   123" |#  doesn't work either.
2017-01-06T19:08:27Z scymtym: right, i don't know how ~i works, that's why i produced the initial indent differently
2017-01-06T19:08:53Z pjb: scymtym: you need ~:> for the newlines. (format nil "   ~@<~{~A~@:_~}~:>" '(1 2 3))  works.
2017-01-06T19:09:42Z scymtym: pjb: oh, i see now, i pasted the wrong line, sorry
2017-01-06T19:09:56Z scymtym: yes, ~:> is needed (logical block instead of justification)
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2017-01-06T19:27:55Z Devon`: (dotimes (i (length ccl::*format-char-table*)) (let ((f (elt ccl::*format-char-table* i))) (when f (format t "~&~:C	~A~&" (code-char i) (function-name f))))) ; reveals I know nothing of the $*/<?IW_ directives, back to the docs...
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2017-01-06T19:28:35Z Devon`: CCL at least supports $%&(*/<?ABCDEFGIOPRSTWX[^_{|~ and NewLine.
2017-01-06T19:29:13Z jasom: clhs ~$
2017-01-06T19:29:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccd.htm
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2017-01-06T19:30:36Z jasom: Devon`: that was the only one of "$*/<?IW_" I remember, but I read format docs in my spare time
2017-01-06T19:32:40Z jasom: s/remember/couldn't remember
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2017-01-06T19:55:52Z Devon`: (let ((*print-pretty* t)) (format t "nope ~-1/pprint-tabular/" '(1 2 3))) ;; nope 1 2 3
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2017-01-06T21:08:55Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-01-06T22:07:06Z flip214: OSICAT:stat returns always 6 in the STAT-DEV field... for /dev/null, for /dev/sda, etc.
2017-01-06T22:07:10Z flip214: I guess that's broken
2017-01-06T22:09:57Z flip214: or is it RDEV?
2017-01-06T22:10:30Z flip214: ah, the RDEV field it is. DEV is for the device the inode is on.
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2017-01-06T22:22:18Z Xach: Who is mr static-vectors?
2017-01-06T22:22:24Z Xach: (or ms static-vectors)
2017-01-06T22:22:41Z Xach: ahh
2017-01-06T22:23:04Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: are you going to make a new static-vectors release?
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2017-01-06T22:27:40Z fe[nl]ix: when do you need it ?
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2017-01-06T22:28:53Z fe[nl]ix: give me 10 mnutes
2017-01-06T22:28:56Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: ok
2017-01-06T22:29:12Z Xach: I am a little surprised how much static-vectors affects when it stops building.
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2017-01-06T22:31:02Z fe[nl]ix: it's very useful to interface with C libraries
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2017-01-06T22:33:58Z Xach: broken opticl has a wide effect too
2017-01-06T22:34:03Z Xach: today is not a good day for building
2017-01-06T22:34:08Z fe[nl]ix: done
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2017-01-06T23:50:54Z dlowe: now that html-entities has been booted from quicklisp, is there something else that people are using?
2017-01-06T23:52:03Z jasom: dlowe: I usually use cl-who which has a function that I think does the equivalent (I haven't used html-entities)
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2017-01-06T23:52:20Z Xach: dlowe: you can adopt it!
2017-01-06T23:52:47Z dlowe: Xach: There's an idea.
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2017-01-06T23:53:33Z dlowe: There's probably some html entity management in one of these better maintained libraries, though.
2017-01-06T23:54:21Z jasom: (cl-who:escape-string ">?\"&") => "&gt;?&quot;&amp;"
2017-01-06T23:55:02Z dlowe: jasom: and decoding?
2017-01-06T23:56:09Z jasom: dlowe: ah, no it doesn't do that.
2017-01-06T23:56:40Z dlowe: maybe there isn't :/
2017-01-06T23:58:23Z jasom: dlowe: plump:decode-entities
2017-01-06T23:58:46Z jasom: dlowe: I bet most html parsing libraries have similar
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2017-01-07T00:00:16Z dlowe: okay, plump will do both encoding and decoding.
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2017-01-07T00:00:31Z dlowe: I knew it would decode. Thanks, jasom
2017-01-07T00:02:14Z dlowe: it was already using plump too, so that's a dependency removed. Very satisfying.
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2017-01-07T01:03:42Z pjb: dlowe: I use com.informatimago, but it's been eliminated from quicklisp too.
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2017-01-07T02:55:12Z akkad: so if you store an object reference to a hash, then pull that value out, do accessors still work?
2017-01-07T03:00:38Z Bike: uh, sure? what is a "reference"?
2017-01-07T03:01:55Z akkad: symbolic reference I'd assume. e.g. (push array (make-instance 'myclass :foo "bar"))
2017-01-07T03:02:43Z Bike: that's not how push works? what about that is symbolic?
2017-01-07T03:03:36Z akkad: yeah args backwards
2017-01-07T03:04:03Z akkad: Bike: so how would you term that?
2017-01-07T03:04:17Z Bike: it's just... an instance. an object. you put it in an array.
2017-01-07T03:04:30Z Bike: and you take it out of the array and it continues to be an object.
2017-01-07T03:04:44Z akkad: guess the printed object format is confusing me with the actual object being stored.
2017-01-07T03:05:12Z akkad: was not sure if it was a pointer sort of reference, that could be followed, or if the actual object was stored, and merely printed in a condensed form
2017-01-07T03:05:29Z Bike: lisp is pretty simple. everything is a value. there aren't pointers or implicit copying or references
2017-01-07T03:05:55Z akkad: k
2017-01-07T03:07:05Z Bike: (there actually is implicit copying for fixnums and characters, but if you don't use eq it never comes up)
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2017-01-07T03:09:30Z akkad: #<DSTADDR  M@11118631(39:43432)> reminded me of a pointer/address/reference.
2017-01-07T03:10:19Z Bike: yeah, that is probably the memory address. but that only comes up in printing (it's the :identity thing in print-unreadable-object)
2017-01-07T03:10:26Z Bike: so, you know, visual, debugging, stuff like that.
2017-01-07T03:10:56Z akkad: rigfht
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2017-01-07T03:11:29Z Bike: (if you DO want to compare things by memory address, use eq)
2017-01-07T03:11:30Z akkad: just was not sure when iterating through objects to find all that match this exact object. same printed format, if one had any eql operator.
2017-01-07T03:11:35Z akkad: k
2017-01-07T03:12:27Z akkad: two object lists, one small, unique, and another at 410 million. so finding all those objects with the same memory address from the unique list, in the bigger list would be expensive
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2017-01-07T03:21:10Z akkad: bike: thanks for the clarification
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2017-01-07T03:21:27Z Bike: np
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2017-01-07T04:04:32Z shrdlu68: Does drakma url-encode a GET request or will be a case of double encoding if I do it manually?
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2017-01-07T04:18:27Z p_l: shrdlu68: it will encode parts of the request pushed through :parameters option, but it seems that for its uri argument you need to provide url encoded string
2017-01-07T04:19:44Z p_l: also remember to provide apropriate external format
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2017-01-07T04:26:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-01-07T04:27:11Z p_l: beach: Good morning! :)
2017-01-07T04:28:34Z eelster: Where are you all that it's morning?
2017-01-07T04:28:45Z Bike: orbit
2017-01-07T04:28:59Z eelster: But, good morning to all that it is morning for
2017-01-07T04:33:53Z shrdlu68: p_l: How do I do the usual percent-encoding on get params? Is there no built-in way?
2017-01-07T04:35:04Z shrdlu68: The flex-streams options seem to be for "character encoding", i.e utf8, utf32, etc.
2017-01-07T04:35:53Z shrdlu68: It encodes POST params fine.
2017-01-07T04:36:45Z p_l: (drakma:http-request "https://echo.getpostman.com/get" :method :get :external-format-out :utf8 :external-format-in :utf8 :parameters '(("秘密" . "です") ("°°żźżćż" . "zażółć gęślą jaźń")))
2017-01-07T04:36:46Z p_l: example
2017-01-07T04:37:09Z eelster: p_l: What flavor of lisp are you using?
2017-01-07T04:37:39Z p_l: eelster: that's an example from Steel Bank Common Lisp with Drakma library (http client)
2017-01-07T04:38:03Z eelster: p_l: Ah. SBCL is great. The Drakma was what was throwing me.
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2017-01-07T04:39:28Z shrdlu68: p_l: Ah, jeez. I could swear drakma once chastised me for using :parameters together with :method :get.
2017-01-07T04:40:34Z shrdlu68: I must have done something wrong, but I got it even wronger: I thought :parameters ought not to be used with :method :GET, because it complained something about not knowing what to do with the parameters.
2017-01-07T04:41:23Z shrdlu68: So since then I've been using my own function to create a GET request given the base url, and parameters.
2017-01-07T04:41:32Z shrdlu68: So ends this sad tale.
2017-01-07T04:42:19Z shrdlu68: A tragic waste of verterbrate life.
2017-01-07T04:42:45Z eelster: In the word of modest mouse, "someday you will die somehow and someone's gonna steal your carbon"
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2017-01-07T06:09:05Z ahungry: what would be the best way to provide output from sb-cover:report as a CLI based output?  The READ'able list from sb-cover:save-coverage is not really documented at http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dcover
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2017-01-07T06:21:13Z PuercoPop: ahungry: cl-coveralls scrapes the html output but that seems backwards. Have checked how to coverage info is stored in sb-c::*code-coverage-info*? you may be able to adapt it from there
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2017-01-07T06:28:52Z ahungry: I thikn I can use this as a good base: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/622c9daf9bb41ef9ad4b8a063c62c4baf59a1c1a/contrib/sb-cover/cover.lisp
2017-01-07T06:29:09Z ahungry: I'm going to change the output of HTML style to be JSON and then I'll submit it to SBCL or something
2017-01-07T06:29:19Z ahungry: then everyone can more easily re-use the json format for CI type things or other presentations
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2017-01-07T08:37:11Z ahungry: ok cool, this works https://camo.githubusercontent.com/0f3df8625021db572a7927d9c7dc1b7b84d04253/687474703a2f2f6168756e6772792e636f6d2f696d672f746573742d73686f742e706e67
2017-01-07T08:37:17Z ahungry: now to add color to it and do the json serializing thing
2017-01-07T08:37:51Z ahungry: full project link if any interested: https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-fleece
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2017-01-07T08:50:46Z axion: Is there SLIME functionality to lookup documentation of a toplevel form when point is anywhere inside? if point is inside a defun, looks up the 'function documentation for the symbol naming that top-level form?
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2017-01-07T08:55:58Z phadthai: ahungry: link it on clicky :)
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2017-01-07T12:20:18Z flip214: UIOP says :OUTPUT (:STRING :STRIPPED T) is allowed, and that :ERROR-OUTPUT is the same - but trying that gives me an error.
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2017-01-07T12:39:12Z Posterdati: flip214: hi
2017-01-07T12:39:36Z Posterdati: froggey: the mezzano image started with a sys.int window, how can I close it?
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2017-01-07T12:46:04Z Mezzanal: hi
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2017-01-07T12:46:23Z Mezzanal: I'm on Mezzano! Nice!
2017-01-07T12:46:43Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: hi
2017-01-07T12:47:49Z Mezzanal: hi ebrasca are you from nebraska?
2017-01-07T12:47:55Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: It work on my hardware (bare metal).
2017-01-07T12:48:02Z Mezzanal: wiw
2017-01-07T12:48:04Z Mezzanal: wow
2017-01-07T12:48:11Z Mezzanal: which hardware?
2017-01-07T12:48:17Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: I am from Poland
2017-01-07T12:48:54Z Mezzanal: ok
2017-01-07T12:49:06Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: intel I7-4790S
2017-01-07T12:49:10Z Mezzanal: on which hardware is it running?
2017-01-07T12:49:13Z Mezzanal: ah ok
2017-01-07T12:49:31Z Mezzanal: what is it? An industrial PC?
2017-01-07T12:50:08Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: Whait I go to up all spec info.
2017-01-07T12:50:29Z Mezzanal: oh thanks
2017-01-07T12:50:39Z Mezzanal: is it a commercial mobo?
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2017-01-07T12:52:54Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: http://ix.io/1PoR
2017-01-07T12:56:31Z Mezzanal: thanks
2017-01-07T12:56:42Z Mezzanal: is that an output from Mezzano?
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2017-01-07T12:57:57Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: It is from GNU/Linux lshw
2017-01-07T12:59:19Z Mezzanal: are you running it with qemu/kvm?
2017-01-07T12:59:37Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: now it is off.
2017-01-07T12:59:56Z Mezzanal: then it is not baremetal
2017-01-07T13:00:22Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: It don't have email video ...
2017-01-07T13:00:57Z ebrasca: Mezzanal: And it is baremetal.
2017-01-07T13:02:00Z p_l: ehhh, everything is layers upon layers of VMs, though
2017-01-07T13:02:19Z Posterdati: p_l: it is not baremetal
2017-01-07T13:02:32Z ebrasca: p_l: it can run over baremetal
2017-01-07T13:02:41Z Posterdati: p_l: baremetal is when you install "natively" on a machine
2017-01-07T13:03:23Z p_l: Believe me, I know. I also know all the VM layers you go through to see Grub run on "
2017-01-07T13:03:28Z p_l: "baremetal"
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2017-01-07T13:04:03Z p_l: You can safely ignore the grumpy old admin ;)
2017-01-07T13:04:45Z ebrasca: p_l: but it boot in mezzano with syslinux.
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2017-01-07T13:06:21Z p_l: IIRC, Mezzano can't boot natively under UEFI, so on pretty much all hardware from last decade it has to go through ROM-resident emulator that tries to play the role of 1981 computer booting MS basic from ROM or cassette tape
2017-01-07T13:07:13Z p_l: because 16bit calls tend to not work well with 64bit environments, among other things
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2017-01-07T13:09:45Z shrdlu68: I'm getting a static-vectors build error trying to quickload dexador. About a month ago I was encountering the same errors trying to quickload fast-io.
2017-01-07T13:10:11Z Posterdati: shrdlu68: welcome to static vectors
2017-01-07T13:10:56Z shrdlu68: It's the usual state of things, then?
2017-01-07T13:11:04Z Posterdati: then...
2017-01-07T13:12:37Z shrdlu68: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/static-vectors.html
2017-01-07T13:17:39Z shrdlu68: It works on CCL...
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2017-01-07T13:23:35Z froggey: Posterdati: once the desktop appears (icons and background picture) you can run (snapshot-and-exit) in that sys.int> window to finish the build
2017-01-07T13:24:18Z Posterdati: froggey: I cannot write anything in it!
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2017-01-07T13:24:47Z froggey: does the mouse work?
2017-01-07T13:24:57Z froggey: try clicking on it to give it focus
2017-01-07T13:25:25Z Posterdati: ok
2017-01-07T13:25:29Z Posterdati: done!
2017-01-07T13:25:35Z Posterdati: it is working
2017-01-07T13:26:50Z froggey: p_l: I added support for booting from UEFI about a month ago
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2017-01-07T13:27:21Z p_l: froggey: Nice!
2017-01-07T13:27:35Z p_l: froggey: How much ACPI is implemented, btw?
2017-01-07T13:28:09Z axion: Now we just need to port emacs :)
2017-01-07T13:28:25Z Posterdati: axion: isn't it there already?
2017-01-07T13:28:38Z froggey: not nearly enough. tables for detecting CPUs and legacy hardware (the PS/2 controller specifically) are parsed, but nothing beyond that
2017-01-07T13:28:40Z Posterdati: axion: edito icon I suppose
2017-01-07T13:28:47Z axion: That's not Emacs
2017-01-07T13:29:09Z Posterdati: axion: Meta+X worked! :)
2017-01-07T13:29:20Z p_l: froggey: So I guess no AML etc for now :)
2017-01-07T13:29:26Z axion: It follows Emacs conventions, but far from Emacs :)
2017-01-07T13:30:14Z froggey: p_l: nope
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2017-01-07T13:32:55Z shrdlu68: Wow ccl builds rather fast.
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2017-01-07T13:47:47Z Xach: froggey: for a moment i thought you meant a sony playstation controller, and got excited about a lisp-machine game console...
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2017-01-07T13:49:47Z shrdlu68: Is it possible set a new inferior-lisp-program without editing ~/.emacs
2017-01-07T13:50:54Z H4ns: M-: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
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2017-01-07T13:52:17Z shrdlu68: thanks
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2017-01-07T14:38:03Z axion: Can anyone help me make this a little better? Explanation of what I'm trying to do is in the comments. This is extremely bad I think, so I'm looking for improvements: http://paste.lisp.org/display/335961
2017-01-07T14:40:29Z loke: axion: You might want to take a look at the function REMOVE-DUPLICATES
2017-01-07T14:40:39Z loke: with a custom :TEST function
2017-01-07T14:40:44Z loke: I mean custom :KEY function
2017-01-07T14:40:56Z axion: But remove duplicates will remove all duplicates
2017-01-07T14:41:02Z axion: I want to keep the first one seen
2017-01-07T14:41:10Z axion: and the result is only those removed
2017-01-07T14:41:14Z axion: not the leftovers
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2017-01-07T14:49:19Z _death: what's the point of using mapcar there.. also the idiom is push/nreverse, not push/reverse :)
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2017-01-07T15:00:34Z axion: What should I be using instead of mapcar to traverse the list?
2017-01-07T15:02:45Z phadthai: I have not seen the code, but perhaps mapc, if you don't need the results (or loop, or do, etc)
2017-01-07T15:03:20Z axion: I do need the results, which is why I'm confused why I shouldn't be using mapcar
2017-01-07T15:03:24Z phadthai: err dolist I meant
2017-01-07T15:03:31Z phadthai: ok
2017-01-07T15:03:47Z axion: actually I am not looking at the correct revision. Ignore me
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2017-01-07T15:09:43Z phadthai: ok I have looked at your paste and indeed, the mapcar results were not used, another list was returned instead
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2017-01-07T15:10:30Z axion: Yes, sorry about that. I agree.
2017-01-07T15:11:13Z phadthai: not a problem, at least your question was answered :)
2017-01-07T15:11:37Z axion: I annotated it with another, faster solution...still kind of questioning it though
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2017-01-07T15:14:33Z _death: ugh.  the push/nreverse one looks better.. if the values are sorted of course you don't need a hash-table, just the last value processed
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2017-01-07T15:16:02Z axion: they are not always sorted like the example
2017-01-07T15:16:10Z _death: also, interesting if it's actually faster, what with all those nconcs/appends
2017-01-07T15:16:15Z axion: I know
2017-01-07T15:16:21Z axion: I was surprised
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2017-01-07T15:19:20Z pjb: push nreverse will be faster if you're within cache. keeping a reference to the end and updating it there would be faster if your result list is bigger than cache.
2017-01-07T15:21:15Z axion: The push/nreverse one completes 1 million ops in about 0.8s. the annotation is about 0.65s
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2017-01-07T15:23:12Z axion: the push/nreverse one is doing 4x the consing!
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2017-01-07T15:31:46Z loke: axion: consing is pretty fast though.
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2017-01-07T15:32:21Z axion: I can speed it up a LOT if i sort first and don't use a hash
2017-01-07T15:32:30Z axion: I guess that's good enough
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2017-01-07T16:15:32Z axion: final version fwiw http://paste.lisp.org/display/335961#2
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2017-01-07T16:18:48Z pjb: axion: no good. Works only on list of reals.
2017-01-07T16:19:44Z pjb: axion: you should pass in parameter a lessp function instead of hard-wiring #'<.
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2017-01-07T16:20:15Z axion: oh good call
2017-01-07T16:20:25Z scymtym: axion: in CL functions, test-fn and key-fn are typically just test and key. also, what happens if they are not supplied?
2017-01-07T16:20:49Z axion: well this is for a very specific use case, and will have them hard-coded anyway
2017-01-07T16:21:44Z scymtym: furthermore, assuming you still want to make this faster and don't have an FTYPE declaration, you can probably make it a bit faster by doing (let ((test-fn (alexandria:ensure-function test-fn)) (key-fn (alexandria:ensure-function key-fn))) (loop …))
2017-01-07T16:23:15Z loke 's eyes really twitch when I see the keyword prefixes for loop keywords.
2017-01-07T16:23:34Z axion: again, this is for a list of objects having a specific slot with integer values
2017-01-07T16:24:01Z axion: loke: why is that?
2017-01-07T16:24:07Z pjb: loke: this colorize them in a nice color.
2017-01-07T16:24:12Z axion: ^
2017-01-07T16:24:14Z loke: axion: Well, because it's ugly and pointless :-)
2017-01-07T16:24:48Z loke: pjb: Good point. Someone (perhaps me) should update the lisp colourisation in Emacs so that LOOP keywords gets coloured nicely.
2017-01-07T16:25:18Z loke: I wonder if I can do it without implementing a full LOOP parser.
2017-01-07T16:25:20Z axion: I use keywords for EQL specialization a lot to for the same reason
2017-01-07T16:25:24Z axion: too*
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2017-01-07T16:35:38Z haom: hello, does somebody have a good example of how a string class can be implemented, so that it works with the sequence functions like subseq, concatenate?
2017-01-07T16:36:32Z haom: i want to define a string with character attributes
2017-01-07T16:36:42Z loke: haom: There is no standard way to do that.
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2017-01-07T16:37:08Z loke: SBCL (and others) have extension API's that allows you to construct custom sequence functions.
2017-01-07T16:37:26Z loke: However, even if you do, those sequences will not technically be strings. They'll be sequences.
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2017-01-07T16:38:55Z haom: the best i came up with is a class where the string and the attributes are stored in separate slots, but then none of the string functions can be used, because they ignore the attribute slots
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2017-01-07T16:40:50Z haom: loke: can you point me to the sbcl sequence extensions? how are the extensions called?
2017-01-07T16:41:24Z loke: haom: It's in SB-SEQ or SB-SEQUENCE I think.
2017-01-07T16:41:56Z loke: It's not well documented, but if you create a class that extends from SEQUENCE the error messages when you try to use it will lead you in the right direction.
2017-01-07T16:42:11Z loke: haom: Do note that you still can't use it as a normal string.
2017-01-07T16:42:51Z haom: thats ok, a class that is recognized as a sequence, so i dont have to access it slots is sufficient, thank you.
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2017-01-07T16:44:39Z loke: haom: You can probably use that to create something that looks like and behaves like a string in most circumstances, but it won't be accepted as argument to a function that specialises on STRING for example (because it isn't a STRING). You probably need a function such as AS-STRING for those purposes.
2017-01-07T16:44:56Z scymtym: loke: it is documented here: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Extensible-Sequences . whether it is well documented or not is not for me to judge, of course
2017-01-07T16:45:11Z loke: I wish there was a way to extend COERCE to deal with custom types, but there is not (I checked the SBCL implementation of COERCE and all supported conversions are hard-coded)
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2017-01-07T16:48:16Z scymtym: loke: COERCE works with user-defined sequences: (defclass my-seq (sequence) ()) (defmethod sb-sequence:make-sequence-like ((s my-seq) (length integer) &key initial-element initial-contents) (make-instance 'my-seq)) (coerce '(1 2 3) 'my-seq)
2017-01-07T16:48:54Z loke: scymtym: Ah yes... Sorry. When I looked at it, I wanted to have a custom coerce from a custom numeric type, not a custom sequence. THAT is what isn't working.
2017-01-07T16:49:27Z scymtym: sure, i'm all for making COERCE a generic function
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2017-01-07T17:13:38Z malice: Do we have any ordered sets library in CL?
2017-01-07T17:14:08Z malice: I want to iterate over an ordered set, but I might add items to it during iteration which I want to iterate over during that iteration
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2017-01-07T17:26:56Z beach: malice: If you are going to iterate over it, you might as well use a list.
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2017-01-07T17:28:38Z malice: beach: yeah, I guess that's what I'll be using
2017-01-07T17:28:50Z malice: One more question: I want to use quicklisp to load my local project
2017-01-07T17:29:07Z malice: I have it in directory ~/some/dir/projectdir
2017-01-07T17:29:20Z malice: I added soft link pointing to ~/some/dir to my ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2017-01-07T17:29:26Z malice: or whatever that directory's called
2017-01-07T17:29:26Z beach: You need to be careful not to use iteration constructs that have undefined behavior when the list is modified.
2017-01-07T17:29:44Z beach: You can't use (loop for x in list ...) for instance.
2017-01-07T17:29:47Z Xach: malice: that isn't a question!
2017-01-07T17:29:58Z malice: but when I want to load it can't see it. The directory projectdir is cased(ProjectDir), I did the same with .asd file
2017-01-07T17:30:04Z malice: What can I do to load it?
2017-01-07T17:30:05Z beach: malice: You need to do something like (loop for x = list then (cdr x) ...
2017-01-07T17:30:16Z malice: Xach: I wanted to describe my problem to ask a question :)
2017-01-07T17:30:29Z malice: beach: that's a useful piece of advice. Thank you!
2017-01-07T17:31:11Z malice: Am I doing something wrong with the asd? Added wrong directory or something?
2017-01-07T17:31:13Z Xach: malice: you can't use mixed case in quicklisp systems.
2017-01-07T17:31:29Z malice: that's unfortunate
2017-01-07T17:31:55Z malice: does it search by the name of folder?
2017-01-07T17:31:59Z malice: or just checks all the folders?
2017-01-07T17:32:06Z malice: could I get away by making soft link names projectdir?
2017-01-07T17:32:16Z malice: s/names/named
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2017-01-07T17:34:36Z Xach: malice: the file named <something>.asd is the important thing. the <something> is the system name.
2017-01-07T17:34:45Z Xach: malice: the folder is of no consequence.
2017-01-07T17:35:05Z Xach: It is important that the (defsystem <something> ...) and the <something>.asd somethings match.
2017-01-07T17:36:08Z malice: Okay, so now I have ProjectDir/projectdir.asd
2017-01-07T17:36:14Z malice: Should that work?
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2017-01-07T17:36:20Z Xach: That will be loadable with quicklisp.
2017-01-07T17:36:33Z malice: Will the quicklisp see it off the bat? Should I update its database somehow?
2017-01-07T17:36:40Z malice: Because it's not working atm
2017-01-07T17:37:05Z Xach: malice: (ql:register-local-projects) might be necessary.
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2017-01-07T17:38:02Z Xach: malice: it can often detect things automatically, but not always. it depends on the depth of the directory structure.
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2017-01-07T17:38:24Z malice: Okay. The command worked. Thank you for your help, Xach!
2017-01-07T17:38:29Z Xach: no problemo
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2017-01-07T17:43:54Z shrdlu68: A server I'm trying to POST to is replying with a 403, advising me to use a different browser. I'm using drakma. I tried to use dexador instead and got the same error. It works in thw browser. Any pointers?
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2017-01-07T17:44:22Z Xach: shrdlu68: you could try using a different user-agent.
2017-01-07T17:44:26Z Xach: shrdlu68: like one from a browser.
2017-01-07T17:44:50Z Xach: shrdlu68: it's hard to say what criteria the server is using to reject your request without knowing more about the server.
2017-01-07T17:44:55Z shrdlu68: Originally I was using :safari, and then switched to :firefox. No luck.
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2017-01-07T17:45:14Z Xach: shrdlu68: You could use exactly what your browser sends.
2017-01-07T17:45:25Z shrdlu68: The server says it's "gunicorn/19.0.0"
2017-01-07T17:45:33Z shrdlu68: Xach: I'll try that.
2017-01-07T17:45:56Z Xach: My browser sends "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_11_6) AppleWebKit/602.3.12 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/10.0.2 Safari/602.3.12"
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2017-01-07T17:47:12Z Xach: drakma uses "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/418.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/419.3" for :safari
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2017-01-07T17:48:27Z shrdlu68: I should have mentioned that it works for GET requests.
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2017-01-07T17:48:44Z shrdlu68: But let me try changing the user-agent.
2017-01-07T17:49:17Z Xach: shrdlu68: is it for a service that would want to restrict automation?
2017-01-07T17:49:29Z Xach: seems odd to reject non-browsers, but i can imagine various reasons
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2017-01-07T17:52:30Z Xach: shrdlu68: the suspense is killing me!!
2017-01-07T17:52:41Z shrdlu68: Xach: There would be no way to distinguish between browsers and non-browsers, would there?
2017-01-07T17:53:13Z shrdlu68: But yes, that would be a reason.
2017-01-07T17:53:19Z Xach: shrdlu68: I'm not sure. user-agent is a flimsy way, but maybe there are other browser fingerprints that are subtler and harder to mimic.
2017-01-07T17:54:12Z shrdlu68: I think I'll do a network capture and use that, then.
2017-01-07T17:54:32Z Xach: shrdlu68: so the user-agent didn't help?
2017-01-07T17:54:47Z shrdlu68: Nope.
2017-01-07T17:54:53Z Xach: dang
2017-01-07T17:55:34Z shrdlu68: It's something about drakma, I've tried changing the character encoding, that didn't work either.
2017-01-07T17:56:11Z shrdlu68: Disabled chunking, reenabled it.
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2017-01-07T17:57:03Z Xach: a network capture sounds sensible, then.
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2017-01-07T18:12:24Z Posterdati: (send 'froggey :ok)
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2017-01-07T18:15:00Z malice: Can I specialize methods on list of certain length and types of items? e.g. method to be invoked on list of length 2 where the first item is string, and second is character
2017-01-07T18:16:28Z Bike: nope
2017-01-07T18:17:02Z malice: That's too bad!
2017-01-07T18:17:24Z Posterdati: froggey: is it possible to shutdown mezzano from the repl?
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2017-01-07T18:22:08Z Fare: malice: Xof had sbcl extensions that allowed you to
2017-01-07T18:22:39Z Fare: Have any of you seen Masamune?
2017-01-07T18:22:53Z malice: Xof ?
2017-01-07T18:23:00Z malice: Fare what is Masamune?
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2017-01-07T18:24:48Z Fare: One guy's brilliant/crazy SBCL/McCLIM Linux distribution
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2017-01-07T18:27:14Z oleo: Fare ?
2017-01-07T18:27:16Z oleo: where ?
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2017-01-07T18:30:45Z williamyaoh: oleo: I assume Fare's talking about this: https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune
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2017-01-07T18:32:09Z Fare: williamyaoh, bingo
2017-01-07T18:32:33Z malice: Is WM written im McCLIM?
2017-01-07T18:32:56Z Fare: malice: Xof had a paper at ELS a few years back on extending the CLOS dispatch mechanism with user-programmable subclassing
2017-01-07T18:33:21Z malice: Gonna look around then
2017-01-07T18:33:23Z malice: thanks
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2017-01-07T18:40:50Z williamyaoh: Blargh, foiled by the Lisp reader.
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2017-01-07T18:57:31Z mada: 4
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2017-01-07T18:58:50Z oleo: hmm, thank you
2017-01-07T18:59:07Z oleo: i already have mcclim functional to some extent on my linux system.....
2017-01-07T18:59:17Z oleo: i don't need to tie in emacs even.....
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2017-01-07T19:01:58Z froggey: Posterdati: no, you have to close the VM if you want to shut it down
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2017-01-07T19:30:54Z Posterdati: froggey: ok, thanks
2017-01-07T19:31:13Z Posterdati: froggey: is it possible to install over a non x86 hardware?
2017-01-07T19:34:20Z froggey: no
2017-01-07T19:34:59Z Posterdati: :(
2017-01-07T19:35:10Z Posterdati: I hope that x86 would be ok too
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2017-01-07T19:37:20Z froggey: only x86-64 systems are supported
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2017-01-07T21:04:04Z phoe: How can I check the class precedence list for conditions?
2017-01-07T21:07:04Z Bike: you mean, get the cpl of a condition class?
2017-01-07T21:07:27Z phoe: Basically, I have an instance of SB-INT:CLOSED-STREAM-ERROR. I want to see whether it has some superclass that I can catch inside HANDLER-CASE.
2017-01-07T21:07:30Z phoe: Bike: yes.
2017-01-07T21:07:46Z Bike: same way as any other class
2017-01-07T21:07:51Z phoe: Bike: not really.
2017-01-07T21:07:52Z Bike: sb-mop:class-precedence-list for you
2017-01-07T21:08:13Z phoe: ...oooooh,
2017-01-07T21:08:19Z phoe: I need to FIND-CLASS and not feed it a symbol.
2017-01-07T21:08:19Z Bike: (sb-mop:c-p-l (find-class 'sb-int:closed-stream-error)) => wa la
2017-01-07T21:08:27Z phoe: Got it! Thanks.
2017-01-07T21:08:53Z Bike: yeah the mop functions don't take class designators so much
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2017-01-07T21:18:20Z bexx: hi
2017-01-07T21:18:28Z bexx: i have a problem
2017-01-07T21:20:20Z bexx: i'm learning common lisp and using slime with emacs
2017-01-07T21:20:20Z bexx: when i shrink the *slime-description* buffer he continually ignores and become large again when i pass him other function
2017-01-07T21:20:20Z bexx: sorry for my english
2017-01-07T21:20:21Z bexx: do you how to solve that?
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2017-01-07T21:21:01Z bexx`: any:
2017-01-07T21:21:02Z bexx`: ?
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2017-01-07T21:42:19Z varjag: is there a reasonably portable package to probe system capabilities?
2017-01-07T21:42:28Z varjag: number of cores, ram size tc
2017-01-07T21:42:30Z varjag: etc
2017-01-07T21:42:34Z fe[nl]ix: no
2017-01-07T21:43:10Z pjb: You can call sysctl on bsd like, and probe /proc and /sys on linux.
2017-01-07T21:43:35Z pjb: That should give you rather consistent APIs.
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2017-01-07T21:45:05Z varjag: that's not reasonably portable
2017-01-07T21:45:15Z varjag: not sure /proc on linux is consistent 2.4 through 4.
2017-01-07T21:46:05Z varjag: but fair enough it's not critical.. just didn't want to reinvent the wheel
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2017-01-08T00:01:53Z phoe: How does the Lisp reader read strings?
2017-01-08T00:02:07Z phoe: Let's assume I have a string "\"foo\"".
2017-01-08T00:02:27Z phoe: Will this always be a freshly created string when I read this with (read-from-string)?
2017-01-08T00:02:48Z phoe: Or is there a chance it will be coalesced by the compiler?
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2017-01-08T00:03:47Z Bike: wow, i'm not sure.
2017-01-08T00:04:10Z Bike: i mean, i'd expect it to be fresh
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2017-01-08T00:06:49Z Bike: since otherwise it would be a displaced string or something and that would be silly
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2017-01-08T00:14:21Z phoe: Does anyone have a corresponding CLHS chapter handy?
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2017-01-08T00:15:13Z phoe: Basically, it depends on how the #\" reader macro is implemented.
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2017-01-08T00:16:37Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/02_de.htm
2017-01-08T00:16:46Z phoe: "are made into a simple-string"
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2017-01-08T00:27:59Z edgar-rft: phoe: I think that (let ((s "\"foo\"")) (eq (read-from-string s) (read-from-string s))) returns T if the second READ-FROM-STRING re-uses the object created by the first one, if that's what you're interested in.
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2017-01-08T00:28:45Z phoe: edgar-rft: NIL. Thank you.
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2017-01-08T00:37:45Z sjl:  phoe: relevant bit of the Common Lisp Recipes book: https://i.imgur.com/hyoMV7L.png
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2017-01-08T01:06:38Z adlai: Fare: have you /used/ it?
2017-01-08T01:07:14Z adlai: masamune, that is.
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2017-01-08T01:32:07Z phoe: Okay - let me try to get this right.
2017-01-08T01:32:31Z phoe: (defun fn () (signal 'something) (print "foo"))
2017-01-08T01:33:26Z phoe: The fact that I signal SOMETHING can mean various things. If I define a handler that's basically (lambda (condition) (print "bar")), what will get printed is, "bar" and then "foo". Am I right?
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2017-01-08T01:37:27Z phoe: It seems that I am. HANDLER-CASE performs transfer of control where HANDLER-BIND does not.
2017-01-08T01:37:30Z Bike: yeah.
2017-01-08T01:37:44Z Bike: that is also correct
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2017-01-08T01:38:00Z Bike: or rather, handler-bind doesn't transfer control unless the handler does
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2017-01-08T01:39:26Z phoe: Ayup.
2017-01-08T01:39:31Z phoe: But, like, by default.
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2017-01-08T02:53:59Z habs: Is common lisp's format string langage Turing complete (without tilde slash extensions which would be trivially TC)? Has anyone tried to prove one way or the other?
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2017-01-08T02:55:34Z |3b|: probably not, if you mean a single call to format
2017-01-08T02:55:51Z Bike: it doesn't have a persistent state except the position in the string and the position in the arguments, both of which are finite
2017-01-08T02:56:28Z |3b|: well, if comparing it to an infinite turing machine it seems reasonable to remove those limitations
2017-01-08T02:58:08Z |3b| wonders about something like (loop for f = "?" then (format nil f)) or something though
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2017-01-08T02:59:17Z |3b|: or maybe (loop with p = "?" for d = "?" then (format nil f d))
2017-01-08T02:59:27Z |3b|: (format nil p d) i mean
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2017-01-08T03:01:40Z |3b|: probably even easier with multiple constant arguments in addition to the updating one, could use them for subroutines/program counter
2017-01-08T03:02:41Z habs: forgive my ignorance but which format directive can give you the position in the string?
2017-01-08T03:04:24Z Bike: within the format string? there isn't one.
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2017-01-08T03:04:55Z |3b|: actually, i wonder if just lots of arguments would be enough, calling eachother recursively
2017-01-08T03:05:12Z |3b|: lack of variables is probably still a problem though
2017-01-08T03:06:19Z |3b| still suspects not
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2017-01-08T03:16:36Z mada: what does it mean that functions and data are in separate namespaces?
2017-01-08T03:16:45Z habs: well, if we use the position in the arguments and consider that as a binary value, then we're getting something like a turing machine with 2 symbols
2017-01-08T03:16:47Z habs: where each bit in the position's binary representation is a variable that can be 0 or 1, and can be manipulated by format ~[~] (+1) or ~:* (-1)
2017-01-08T03:17:50Z Bike: but you can only add or subtract fixed amounts
2017-01-08T03:18:16Z Bike: mada: defining a function to take an argument called "list" is ok, since the variable "list" is unrelated to the function "list"
2017-01-08T03:19:44Z habs: Bike: can't you use looping ~{~} with those though if we can control the args passed? the question is can we 'read' the bits of the arg position with a format string and use that as a parameter for the loop, which may be possible
2017-01-08T03:20:11Z mada: Bike: I see, thanks
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2017-01-08T03:20:33Z mada: is this why one needs to use # to refer to thing-the-function?
2017-01-08T03:20:42Z Bike: #' yes.
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2017-01-08T03:22:39Z Bike: habs: you can't go backwards bitwise with ~{ looping, ie you can't ~^ out unless there are no arguments left.
2017-01-08T03:25:50Z pjb: You need to have a mutable memory to make a TC. Where's the mutable memory of format if you don't use ~/ ?
2017-01-08T03:26:21Z Fare: adlai: no, I don't intend to shell out the money and buy the only piece of supported hardware (thinkpad x220). I mean, it's probably nice in many ways, but I don't want to find myself in autistic software controlled by someone else
2017-01-08T03:26:47Z pjb: I wrote ~/ functions to generate indexed lists of items, because I couldn't find any other way to get the index (and increment/decrement such an index) with the other format specifiers.
2017-01-08T03:29:18Z adlai: Fare: aha, i must have too many preconceptions about software and hardware and the [in]significance of published sources
2017-01-08T03:29:53Z habs: pjb: we're trying to make our 'mutable memory' the position in the args, which is mutable, and if you want a tape then you can consider that as a binary string where each bit is a cell
2017-01-08T03:30:52Z Bike: you can't read it though.
2017-01-08T03:31:12Z pjb: And how do you index the bits?
2017-01-08T03:33:12Z pjb: So you need at least two big ints.
2017-01-08T03:35:08Z Fare: mix of genius and stupidity :-(
2017-01-08T03:35:49Z Fare: I just showed "Spirited Away" again to my 4.5 yo. I've said it before, but it's basically "Ode to Hufflepuff"
2017-01-08T03:36:09Z adlai: aren't two big ints just one big int if you squint at it right?
2017-01-08T03:36:23Z adlai: at the very least, clhs upgraded-complex-part-type
2017-01-08T03:37:21Z Bike: i don't want to be a hufflepuff if it means dealing with no face
2017-01-08T03:37:23Z pjb: well, yes.  But how do you switch the bit indicated by the pointer part in the data part, with format specifiers?
2017-01-08T03:37:32Z pjb: (and arguments).
2017-01-08T03:38:02Z pjb: Strangely enough, we still feel like it might be possible…
2017-01-08T03:38:55Z adlai refrains from opining about ~/ which lies outside the span of his cl experience
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2017-01-08T04:11:28Z Fare: packing two ints in one reminds me of this formula... (defun f (n &optional (a (expt 10 n))) (mod (floor (expt a (1+ n)) (- (* a a) a 1)) a))
2017-01-08T04:12:46Z Fare: pjb: I've seen action on the clisp front... will there be a new release soon?
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2017-01-08T04:21:57Z mada: does #\<character> work only with ascii? I just tried to run (char-equal #\ñ #\Ñ) and slimv kind of choked
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2017-01-08T04:23:23Z axion: No, sounds like a problem with your locale or editor
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2017-01-08T04:25:31Z mada: hm yes, plain sbcl repl works
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2017-01-08T04:35:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-08T04:43:13Z axion: Morning beach
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2017-01-08T05:39:45Z shrdlu68: What's wrong with this :additional-headers list? It cause an error "No space in status line 0" in drakma. I've isolated this as the problematic code, if I remove it everything is groovy.
2017-01-08T05:39:59Z shrdlu68: s/cause/causes
2017-01-08T05:40:32Z shrdlu68: http://paste.lisp.org/+779Y
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2017-01-08T05:51:11Z Bike: apparently that means that the http response from the server doesn't have a space like it should. can you look at the raw response?
2017-01-08T05:51:43Z shrdlu68: Ok.
2017-01-08T05:55:35Z shrdlu68: I've set *header-stream* to *standard-output* but the error happens before the headers are printed.
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2017-01-08T06:20:48Z H4ns: shrdlu68: (trace chunga:readline*) should give you an idea what the server responds with.
2017-01-08T06:21:00Z H4ns: shrdlu68: (trace chunga:readl-ine*) even
2017-01-08T06:21:08Z H4ns: damn.  dash between read and line.
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2017-01-08T07:04:29Z ahungry: ok, I had mentioned it last night, but I finished the working code coverage on https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-fleece, it basically extends functionality of sb-cover to allow producing report of code coverage in a CLI formatted table and also in a JSON format (to make it easier to integrate with other projects)
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2017-01-08T07:17:16Z Younder: #. is a read macro
2017-01-08T07:22:13Z beach: ahungry: There should be three or four semicolons for a top-level comment.
2017-01-08T07:22:35Z beach: ahungry: Your LOOP has the wrong indentation in af.lib.coverage.lisp.
2017-01-08T07:22:54Z beach: ahungry: Use the slime-indentation contribution to get it right.
2017-01-08T07:23:53Z beach: ahungry: There should (almost) never be any whitespace before a closing parenthesis as you have in report-json.
2017-01-08T07:24:17Z beach: ... and in other functions as well.
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2017-01-08T07:26:47Z beach: ahungry: WHEN and UNLESS should take a Boolean expression, and not an arbitrary value that might be NIL.  So it is preferable to write (when (null paths) ...) rather than (unless path ...).
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2017-01-08T07:27:16Z H4ns: beach: aha?  can you explain the reasoning for that?
2017-01-08T07:27:50Z beach: It is one of the rules of the LUV slides.
2017-01-08T07:28:02Z H4ns: i was not asking for a reference :)
2017-01-08T07:28:05Z beach: It violates the expectations of the maintainer.
2017-01-08T07:28:11Z H4ns: ah, ok.
2017-01-08T07:28:44Z beach: To me it is very disturbing.
2017-01-08T07:28:56Z H4ns: sorry, i thought you were giving general style advice.  i don't see how (when (null is any better than (unless, quite to the contrary, but if that is the project style, i'm not involved
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2017-01-08T07:29:46Z beach: (UNLESS stuff ... ) is fine as long as stuff is a Boolean expression.
2017-01-08T07:31:14Z H4ns: i don't concur.  i think explicit boolean conversion should be done only to avoid passing large data structures around when that would have an adverse effect on, i.e., tracing.  otherwise, i advise to embrace the fact that common lisp does not generally have a real boolean type, but represents nil as false and everything else as true, because that leads to more concise code.
2017-01-08T07:32:26Z beach: Noted.
2017-01-08T07:33:26Z williamyaoh: H4ns: The problem is that NIL might not be false, and instead be a legitimate value, the empty list
2017-01-08T07:33:33Z beach: ahungry: In af.lib.loggy.lisp, you have symbols with mixed case.  That is not the typical Common Lisp style.
2017-01-08T07:34:07Z williamyaoh: So I can see where being explicit helps to get around that particular duality of value and lack of value
2017-01-08T07:34:14Z H4ns: williamyaoh: yeah.  it helps to know what you're doing in general.  one of the down sides of not having a proper boolean type in a language is that the falsy value could have many meanings.
2017-01-08T07:34:33Z beach: ahungry: Furthermore, you have the same name of the slot as you have for the accessor, making it possible for client code to use SLOT-VALUE directly, without passing through the documented protocol.
2017-01-08T07:35:26Z williamyaoh: H4ns: It's not really the lack of a proper boolean type, but rather the fact that NIL can stand for both a value and its absence, creating an ambiguity
2017-01-08T07:35:44Z H4ns: williamyaoh: to me, being explicit about booleans because CL does not have them is re-stating the fact that CL does not have it, but not much else.  i don't see how being explicit would be more beneficial than easy to read code in this case.
2017-01-08T07:36:10Z axion: ahungry: Also, I think it is better to make use of SETF's &rest
2017-01-08T07:36:47Z beach: ahungry: It is usually a bad idea to :USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package.  The reason for that is that you then commit yourself to any future modifications of that package.  If a new version of that package exports a symbol that conflicts with one of yours or one from a different package, then your code breaks gratuitously.
2017-01-08T07:37:30Z beach: ahungry: There are two solutions to that problem.  My preferred solution is to use explicit package prefixes.  The other possibility is to selectively import the symbols you plan to use from the external package.
2017-01-08T07:37:38Z H4ns: williamyaoh: in the end, i guess it is a matter of style, not of reason.  to me, the "more concise" argument trumps the "there could be an ambiguity" argument because there is so much ambiguity in my code and in cl anyway.
2017-01-08T07:39:34Z beach: ahungry: There are also several solutions to the problem of not exporting slot names.  My preferred solution is to prefix slot names with `%' which is the traditional way of indicating "private", or "caution" in Common Lisp.  The other convention I have seen is to suffix the name of the accessor with "-of", which I find less attractive.
2017-01-08T07:41:01Z williamyaoh: H4ns: Fair enough, I'm just playing devil's advocate :) I rely on (if <form> ...) often, so I think it comes down to whether or not it's clear from context whether you're working with *just* lists or *just* booleans.
2017-01-08T07:42:26Z beach: ahungry: In alist-to-hash, you have a blank line between each COND clause.  That is just a waste of vertical space, and gives fewer visible code lines to the maintainer.
2017-01-08T07:43:20Z beach: ahungry: In the function STRINGIFY, you have two semicolons starting a comment on the same line as code.  The usual style is to use a single semicolon in this case.
2017-01-08T07:44:37Z Younder: hi beach, I'm back from California
2017-01-08T07:45:02Z beach: ahungry: You can simplify (if ... (setf <form> <a>) (setf <form> <b>)) to (setf <form> (if ... <a> <b>))
2017-01-08T07:45:22Z beach: Younder: Is that good or bad?
2017-01-08T07:45:42Z Younder: hi beach, yes something like that
2017-01-08T07:46:17Z Younder: we call it a fact ;)
2017-01-08T07:47:30Z beach: ahungry: In WITH-HASHY you repeat the same prefix (progn (setf fn ...)) in each branch of the COND.  You can extract that from the COND to simplify the code.
2017-01-08T07:48:55Z axion: ahungry: You also seem to be using CamelCase symbol names read the reader doesn't care
2017-01-08T07:49:13Z axion: This is annoying to most Lisp maintainers
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2017-01-08T07:50:10Z beach: It also makes an entire family of Emacs commands quite useless.  Now there is no distinction between M-f and C-M-f.
2017-01-08T07:50:55Z Younder: As far as I can see noone has ever used camel case in lisp, hence it is not annoying as much as it is non-existant
2017-01-08T07:51:25Z axion: It is bad style, and too often found in pastes here
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2017-01-08T07:53:12Z axion: His is particularly irksome in that he is mixing kebob-case with CamelCase in the same symbols
2017-01-08T07:53:58Z Younder: axion, His?
2017-01-08T07:54:09Z beach: ahungry: In the macros SUITE and DESC, you have (eq 0 ...).  There are two problems with that.  The first one is that the standard does not allow you to use EQ to reliably compare numbers.  The second is that it is a violation of the genera rule to use the most specific constructs that will do the trick.  Here, it would be (ZEROP ...).
2017-01-08T07:54:59Z beach: ahungry: In those macros, you use nested LETs, whereas in other places you use LET* for the same purpose.  It would be better to have a consistent style.
2017-01-08T07:55:25Z axion: also in those macros you have nested LET forms
2017-01-08T07:55:35Z beach: ahungry: Also, in those macros, you have considerable code duplication.
2017-01-08T07:56:18Z Younder: nested let's in macro's sounds like bad style
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2017-01-08T07:57:00Z beach: I personally use nested LETs only if I need some computation between the introduction of two bindings.
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2017-01-08T07:57:19Z axion: Right. in this case they are adjacent though
2017-01-08T07:57:25Z beach: Yep.
2017-01-08T08:00:36Z beach: ahungry: In FILE-GET-CONTENTS, you use WHEN in a position where its value is used.  This is another violation of maintainer expectations.  WHEN and UNLESS should be used only in a context where the value is discarded or unimportant.  It is better to use (IF <condition> <thing> NIL) in a context where the value is needed.
2017-01-08T08:00:56Z axion: ahungry: In CLONE-PROJECT, I do not see the point of the PROGN, and most of it's containing forms can be lifted into the LOOP construct via FOR clauses etc
2017-01-08T08:01:02Z beach guesses that H4ns will disagree.
2017-01-08T08:01:02Z axion: its*
2017-01-08T08:02:33Z axion: also not seeing the point of (format nil "~a" node)
2017-01-08T08:03:04Z beach: ahungry: Not only do your LOOP forms have the wrong indentation.  They also have inconsistent indentation as in FILE-GET-CONTENTS vs FILE-PUT-CONTENTS.  When a maintainer sees inconsistent indentation, he or she suspects that indentation was done manually, so that it can not be relied upon to determine program structure, effectively forcing him or her to count parentheses.
2017-01-08T08:04:04Z Younder: beach, Seems to me emacs does that
2017-01-08T08:04:33Z beach: Younder: Inconsistent indentation?  I don't think so.
2017-01-08T08:04:42Z axion: Emacs does not indent Common Lisp correctly alone
2017-01-08T08:05:12Z beach: ahungry: Your extensive docstrings introduce a lot of noise to the maintainer, because they are not indented as the rest of the code.  I recommend the use of #.(format nil "..." so that you can use the format directive ~@ to indent the lines of the docstring?
2017-01-08T08:05:15Z Younder: beach, yes I thought I was missing something
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2017-01-08T08:07:08Z axion: ahungry: When one has more than a few elements in some type of key/value list structure, as with *COLORS*, it is probably time to use a hash table.
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2017-01-08T08:07:39Z Younder: axion, I would put the llimit at about 100
2017-01-08T08:08:04Z axion: Younder: It is implementation dependent, and often much lower than that
2017-01-08T08:08:38Z Younder: The cost of that hash function though constant is pretty high.
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2017-01-08T08:10:34Z axion: ahungry: The proper style is to name predicates containing one word without the dash, so *COLORIZEP* instead of *COLORIZE-P*
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2017-01-08T08:14:33Z Younder: so the scheme style of ? and ! is out?
2017-01-08T08:14:54Z axion: Correct
2017-01-08T08:18:53Z _death: that's not a predicate though..
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2017-01-08T08:19:48Z Younder: ? is
2017-01-08T08:19:57Z axion: That is true, so it shouldn't have that suffix at all.
2017-01-08T08:20:02Z _death: (btw, I prefer to always -p..)
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2017-01-08T08:20:30Z axion: I did that for a while too, but I became much more pedantic of the style rules lately
2017-01-08T08:20:34Z Younder: -p is not correct style. it should be nameP
2017-01-08T08:20:44Z _death: what is "correct style"
2017-01-08T08:20:50Z Younder: NOT THAT IT MATTERS
2017-01-08T08:21:15Z axion: Fare's Google style guide is one that is widely accepted
2017-01-08T08:21:29Z _death: axion: very much doubt that
2017-01-08T08:21:58Z axion: Noted
2017-01-08T08:22:40Z _death: anyway, the -p/p style is described in CLtL.. in the first few years I followed that.. but then -p took over
2017-01-08T08:23:33Z axion: I like to stay consistent with the CL package, as well
2017-01-08T08:24:27Z _death: sure, I can see why you'd prefer that
2017-01-08T08:24:31Z Younder: Witch would make sense if it was consistent
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2017-01-08T08:24:53Z axion: When is it not?
2017-01-08T08:25:06Z _death: for example ATOM and NULL
2017-01-08T08:25:07Z Younder: Instead it is a mismatch
2017-01-08T08:25:14Z axion: NULL is the same as NOT
2017-01-08T08:25:22Z _death: it is a predicate
2017-01-08T08:25:36Z Younder: and no P or -P
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2017-01-08T08:25:49Z axion: But has the same semantic meaning
2017-01-08T08:26:04Z Younder: by accident
2017-01-08T08:26:16Z _death: it has the same extension, but different intension
2017-01-08T08:26:16Z Younder: not by intention
2017-01-08T08:26:45Z axion: It matters not which you use. CLHS mentions this I believe. Of course like CAR/FIRST, CDR/LAST it is preferable to use the correct one in the right context, but they do the same thing
2017-01-08T08:27:34Z beach: There are clearly some small differences between individuals when it comes to style, just like in text in natural languages.  Each author has to weigh the advantages of his or her preferred style against the possibility of disturbing the reader, so that the reader has difficulty concentrating on the message, and instead sees only style violations.
2017-01-08T08:28:15Z axion: Code after all is a portrayal of ones own mind
2017-01-08T08:28:48Z Younder: You might want to read Edi Weitz new book. Common Lisp recipes. He offers advice on these matters.
2017-01-08T08:28:51Z beach: And, just like with natural languages, some influential authors can change the accepted style, but mostly authors overestimate their ability in this respect.
2017-01-08T08:28:58Z axion: I read it cover to cover
2017-01-08T08:30:10Z _death: I'm 100 pages into it by now.. so far not impressed, but will finish it
2017-01-08T08:30:39Z axion: I disagree with some things, but overall it is a very good book I think
2017-01-08T08:30:48Z Younder: I'm about half way through
2017-01-08T08:30:56Z axion: Like his dislike for DEFSTRUCT because it creates implicit symbols
2017-01-08T08:31:20Z beach: What I have a hard time understanding is when people submit text or code for others to read, but then they ask the reader to ignore style violations and just give feedback on the message.  That is very hard to do in general, at least for me.
2017-01-08T08:31:26Z Younder: It does, but I am fine with that
2017-01-08T08:31:49Z Younder: Just as long as it is predictable
2017-01-08T08:31:52Z axion: beach: I agree
2017-01-08T08:32:17Z Younder: Whatever we have defclass now
2017-01-08T08:32:41Z axion: DEFSTRUCT can do things it cannot
2017-01-08T08:32:56Z Younder: so defstruct is deprecated
2017-01-08T08:33:24Z Younder: axion, oh! elaborate
2017-01-08T08:33:30Z H4ns: using defstruct is really a matter of style.  of bad style, i'd say, but that is just me.
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2017-01-08T08:34:17Z axion: Younder: creating types http://paste.lisp.org/display/336028
2017-01-08T08:35:08Z Younder: That's pretty cool
2017-01-08T08:36:48Z Younder: I've never have thought of using a defstruct like that
2017-01-08T08:37:21Z axion: I have, because I had to write a very efficient game math library, so I have lots of compiler helpers like that.
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2017-01-08T08:38:05Z Younder: So defstruct allows for better efficiency. Didn't know that
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2017-01-08T08:39:25Z Younder reconsiders defstruct
2017-01-08T08:45:17Z Younder: I bet there are a lot of dark corners of Lisp I am not aware about. I guess that's why I am here.
2017-01-08T08:46:03Z Younder: thx axiom
2017-01-08T08:46:04Z axion: Younder: You would be correct in that assumption. I've barely scratched the surface in my decade of explicit use
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2017-01-08T08:47:14Z _death: http://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/ if you have time..
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2017-01-08T08:57:24Z Younder: _death, RFC's from the original implementors! How did you find it
2017-01-08T08:57:28Z Younder: ?
2017-01-08T08:58:29Z Younder: bookmakred
2017-01-08T08:58:43Z _death: someone linked it on reddit some years ago.  I made a gnus-friendly version and spent some months reading it
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2017-01-08T09:00:08Z axion: How is Usenet these days, still low signal to noise ratio? I have been considering revisiting the groups I used to frequent many years ago.
2017-01-08T09:01:06Z _death: not much action on the lisp groups
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2017-01-08T09:01:30Z beach: Oh, my!  PSL.  Memories...
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2017-01-08T09:02:02Z Younder: I fear I am making up much of the noise, but the quality of information I have been given today is exceptional!
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2017-01-08T09:03:45Z Younder: Keep up the good work.
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2017-01-08T09:04:17Z jackdaniel: _death: very interested resource, thanks
2017-01-08T09:04:22Z _death: I believe that CL standardization committee was one of the first to use email for a collaborative effort
2017-01-08T09:04:23Z jackdaniel: interesting°
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2017-01-08T09:06:36Z _death: reading emails from 1981.. anyway, because it was one of the first there was even a sociological (I think) study based on it
2017-01-08T09:07:36Z _death: if you want the gnus-friendly version for that (and for LL1 mailing list).. check https://adeht.org/
2017-01-08T09:08:26Z _death: (now without google analytics!)
2017-01-08T09:08:45Z axion: Thanks _death for the resource
2017-01-08T09:08:50Z axion: s
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2017-01-08T10:55:06Z axion: Hey _death, you still there?
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2017-01-08T11:15:34Z devon: In CCL, :return-from-frame hangs.  The frame in question is wrapped in ignore-errors so I guess (error "get me out of here") should do the trick, any thoughts?
2017-01-08T11:29:43Z _death: sup
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2017-01-08T11:43:03Z phoe: axion: _death is around
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2017-01-08T11:57:45Z _death: then again, could be (defmethod answer :around ((message answering-machine-mixin)) (if (and (equal (recipient message) "_death") (eq (purpose message) :around-check) (random-elt *greetings*) (call-next-method))))
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2017-01-08T11:58:28Z _death: arf, misplaced paren
2017-01-08T11:58:59Z axion: _death: ignore me. I was having problems with gnus. Trying to set up your stuff but I'm making progress. I've been away from usenet for over a decade heh
2017-01-08T12:01:34Z _death: axion: ah.. I use gnus for more than usenet.. see https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/5cl5y1/a_webtorss_parser_in_common_lisp/d9xrqi8/
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2017-01-08T12:02:45Z axion: interesting
2017-01-08T12:02:59Z axion: for mail, i hop between mu4e and notmuch. i can't decide heh
2017-01-08T12:12:53Z phoe: I have a question about conditions.
2017-01-08T12:13:32Z phoe: I want to create a base condition class, FOO, and various subclasses of that: FOO-A, FOO-B, FOO-ERROR-A, FOO-ERROR-B.
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2017-01-08T12:14:35Z phoe: When I signal some of these conditions, the non-error ones namely, I'll want the computation to proceed. For errors, I will want to unwind the stack and invoke the proper handler instead.
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2017-01-08T12:17:16Z phoe: What syntax should I use for that? I want some means of defining handlers that will accept the condition class, a parameter that tells whether it should call the handler function in-place or whether it should unwind the stack, and the handler function itself.
2017-01-08T12:17:58Z phoe: So basically, ((foo-a :in-place (lambda (e) ...)) (foo-b :in-place (lambda (e) ...)) (foo-error-a :unwind (lambda (e) ...)) (foo-error-b :unwind (lambda (e) ...)))
2017-01-08T12:20:59Z scymtym: phoe: iiuc, that's just (block nil (handler-bind ((foo-a (lambda (c) …)) (foo-b (lambda (c) …)) (foo-error-a (lambda (c) … (return RETURN-VALUE))))))
2017-01-08T12:22:47Z phoe: scymtym: so the only difference is the fact that the returning handlers have RETURN-FROM in them?
2017-01-08T12:22:58Z _death: maybe the other way around (foo-a/b returning, foo-error-a/b declining)
2017-01-08T12:23:19Z _death: also, there are no condition classes, but condition types :(
2017-01-08T12:23:24Z phoe: uh
2017-01-08T12:23:26Z phoe: sorry about that~
2017-01-08T12:24:52Z scymtym: phoe: probably, i wasn't sure whether you were asking how to implement that behavior or wanted to design a macro exhibiting that behavior
2017-01-08T12:24:55Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: i am having some trouble with the new static-vectors :(
2017-01-08T12:25:02Z _death: but the question is a bit weird.. are you aware of SIGNAL?
2017-01-08T12:25:18Z phoe: _death: yes, I'm aware!
2017-01-08T12:25:30Z phoe: That's what I'm using.
2017-01-08T12:26:02Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336034
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2017-01-08T12:28:16Z phoe: Basically, when I call (SIGNAL 'FOO-A), I'd like to execute a function and let the computation proceed. When I call (SIGNAL 'FOO-ERROR-A), I want to unwind the stack and execute a function.
2017-01-08T12:28:25Z phoe: BBL - real life is calling.
2017-01-08T12:31:20Z _death: "unwind the stack" is the strange thing to want in that context.. and errors usually are signaled using ERROR/CERROR so that they break into the debugger if unhandled
2017-01-08T12:33:34Z _death: now, you may wish to handle the errors using HANDLER-CASE and the nonerrors using HANDLER-BIND.. given the order you just specified (unwind then execute)
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2017-01-08T12:38:57Z _death: scymtym: (you are right, it's not the other way around..)
2017-01-08T12:39:55Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/issues/10 created for tracking
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2017-01-08T13:10:58Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: thanks
2017-01-08T13:12:44Z devon: In CCL, is there a workaround for :return-from-frame hanging forever?
2017-01-08T13:16:37Z axion: Anyone have any advice on browsing comp.lang.lisp for interesting threads to read with gnus? Fetching the headers freezes my Emacs until I C-g after about 4k downloaded, and there are 210k
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2017-01-08T13:22:31Z _death: axion: there is a cll archive created by ron garrett that you can download
2017-01-08T13:23:13Z axion: What is the difference between that and downloading from my usenet provider?
2017-01-08T13:25:23Z _death: well, you could download the articles from the provider.. but maybe not use gnus for that
2017-01-08T13:26:03Z axion: sigh
2017-01-08T13:26:07Z Xach: the cll archive is not great for browsing
2017-01-08T13:26:26Z _death: Xach: in what way?
2017-01-08T13:26:52Z Xach: It is a linear file that must be processed for useful access
2017-01-08T13:27:00Z Xach: Much of it is spam
2017-01-08T13:28:33Z _death: I see.. I have it but did not use it, since I obtained it long after my usenet spelunking days
2017-01-08T13:28:47Z Xach: I am glad it exists, but I also had to write software to make it useful, and that took time
2017-01-08T13:29:38Z Xach: it was also not general-purpose :~(
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2017-01-08T14:00:23Z edza101: Does Common Lisp offer any real advantages over SBCL sans CLOS? It seems that the blazing fast speed of SBCL outmatches all the other implementations.
2017-01-08T14:03:18Z axion: Um
2017-01-08T14:03:19Z loke: edza101: What do you mean? Common Lisp is a standard, it's implemented by SBCL as well as several others.
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2017-01-08T14:09:30Z Xach suspects a missing word
2017-01-08T14:09:56Z beach: edza101: You can't not use CLOS if you use a Common Lisp implementation.  But perhaps you mean that you don't want to use generic functions and standard classes.  But then, I can't see why you would want to deprive yourself of one of the greatest advantages of Common Lisp.
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2017-01-08T14:12:00Z _death: (initialismexpand 'SBCL) ==> (STEEL BANK COMMON LISP)
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2017-01-08T14:13:59Z edgar-rft: AFAIK in Common Lisp even T and NIL are system classes. How would you want to use Common Lisp without T and NIL?
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2017-01-08T14:15:28Z _death: it's more accurate to say that T and NIL are instances of built in classes
2017-01-08T14:16:37Z edgar-rft: According to the CLHS T and NIL are system classes, where T is the superclass of all classes and NIL is the subclass of all classes.
2017-01-08T14:17:06Z _death: well, they are the names of classes too
2017-01-08T14:17:24Z beach: T is a system class.  NIL is a type.
2017-01-08T14:18:07Z jackdaniel: this may be useful: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/
2017-01-08T14:18:55Z edgar-rft: beach is right: NIL is the subtype of all types.
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2017-01-08T14:19:57Z edgar-rft: I once did a graphiz print of all classes and type, but it's quite big :-)
2017-01-08T14:20:25Z beach suspects that edza101 was not interested in having his/her opinions debated; just confirmed.  Oh well.
2017-01-08T14:21:07Z _death: edgar-rft: I took your remark to mean instances because then the argument could make sense..
2017-01-08T14:22:09Z edgar-rft: my arguments *never* make sense :-)
2017-01-08T14:22:10Z _death: all Lisp objects are CLOS instances, conceptually
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2017-01-08T14:23:24Z edgar-rft: I remembered that T was the CLOS superclass and all numbers are classes, too. With NIL I was wrong.
2017-01-08T14:23:41Z _death: (except conditions :)
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2017-01-08T14:26:50Z edgar-rft: According to the CLHS CONDITION is a subclass of T, or what do you mean?
2017-01-08T14:28:27Z _death: edgar-rft: I mean that for 4, I can say that its an instance of a BUILT-IN-CLASS.. for a structure, I can say that it's an instance of a STRUCTURE-CLASS.. but there's no CONDITION-CLASS in the standard.. when they added conditions, even if it was a late addition, they could have closed that loop hole
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2017-01-08T14:31:39Z edgar-rft: When it is no class, why has it then a class precedence list? I know there are some quirks in the CL specification and you're right that CONDITION is a type, not a class. But that's how life is :(
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2017-01-08T14:33:11Z jackdaniel: condition is a class, but it's not a sub-class of standard-class
2017-01-08T14:33:34Z _death: jackdaniel: it may be implemented as a class, that is not a necessity
2017-01-08T14:33:55Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/e_cnd.htm ← class precedence list
2017-01-08T14:34:04Z jackdaniel: it *is* a class
2017-01-08T14:34:15Z edgar-rft feels like an instance of T now...
2017-01-08T14:34:20Z _death: nope.. it says "Condition Type"
2017-01-08T14:35:04Z jackdaniel: class precedence list implies that it is a class, and it is unavoidable here
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2017-01-08T14:38:52Z edgar-rft: Hmm, is CONDITION then a class in the CLOS sense or must a CLOS class be a subclass of STANDARD-CLASS?
2017-01-08T14:38:54Z axion: what about strings?
2017-01-08T14:39:04Z axion: seems to be an SBCL builtin class
2017-01-08T14:39:18Z _death: axion: there is a STRING class
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2017-01-08T14:40:17Z _death: jackdaniel: it looks like a mess, I'll need to read the relevant issue and look for further discussion
2017-01-08T14:40:28Z beach: axion: A system class can be a built-in class or some other class (say a standard class).
2017-01-08T14:41:02Z beach: "system class n. a class that may be of type built-in-class in a conforming implementation and hence cannot be inherited by classes defined by conforming programs."
2017-01-08T14:41:04Z jackdaniel: once again, I recommend this graph of lisp types and classes: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/
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2017-01-08T14:43:37Z beach: "Conditions are generalized instances of the class condition."
2017-01-08T14:43:41Z beach: clhs 9.1
2017-01-08T14:43:41Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm
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2017-01-08T14:45:40Z _death: jackdaniel: according to this graph CONDITION and its ilk are built-in-classes.. which wrong according to the "Class Precedence List", even
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2017-01-08T14:46:26Z beach: _death: What?  Built-in classes have class precedence lists as well.
2017-01-08T14:47:02Z beach: clhs integer
2017-01-08T14:47:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_intege.htm
2017-01-08T14:47:18Z _death: beach: I mean that the class precedence list in the CLHS entry for (Condition Type...) CONDITION is (CONDITION T).. no BUILT-IN-CLASS there
2017-01-08T14:47:28Z beach: Oh, I see.
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2017-01-08T14:48:12Z beach: CONDITION would be an INSTANCE of BUILT-IN-CLASS.
2017-01-08T14:48:18Z beach: Not a subclass.
2017-01-08T14:49:36Z p_l: Instance of metaclass
2017-01-08T14:50:00Z beach: Just like "3 is an integer" means that "3 is an instance of the class INTEGER", "CONDITION is a built-in class" means that "CONDITION is an instance of the class BUILT-IN-CLASS."
2017-01-08T14:50:10Z jackdaniel: example of type system / class leak is lack of exactl float types specialization
2017-01-08T14:50:13Z _death: right, guess I need to sort it out at a better time
2017-01-08T14:50:24Z jackdaniel: (for instatnce you can't conformingly specialize on double-float)
2017-01-08T14:50:44Z jackdaniel: but you can specialize on float
2017-01-08T14:50:54Z jackdaniel: (sorry for delays, I'm cleaning the flat :D)
2017-01-08T14:51:26Z _death: (still, SBCL's SB-PCL::CONDITION-CLASS is not a subclass of BUILT-IN-CLASS)
2017-01-08T14:52:09Z beach: _death: It shouldn't be.
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2017-01-08T14:52:58Z _death: beach: that's why the graph is wrong
2017-01-08T14:52:58Z beach: _death: Oh, wait.  I shouldn't say anything about SBCL's internal stuff.
2017-01-08T14:53:38Z _death: because the standard does not specify any CONDITION class.. it specifies a CONDITION Condition Type.. which somehow has a Class Precedence List...
2017-01-08T14:54:01Z beach: clhs 9.1
2017-01-08T14:54:01Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm
2017-01-08T14:54:08Z beach: "Conditions are generalized instances of the class condition."
2017-01-08T14:54:48Z _death: see, that makes it even stranger
2017-01-08T14:55:18Z _death: where is the entry for Class CONDITION then
2017-01-08T14:55:27Z beach: I suspect sbcl's CONDITION-CLASS is a subclass of the class CLASS just like built-in-class, standard-class, etc.
2017-01-08T14:55:43Z beach: And that CONDITION is an instance of the class CONDITION-CLASS.
2017-01-08T14:55:50Z beach: ... in SBCL.
2017-01-08T14:56:28Z _death: beach: yes
2017-01-08T14:56:36Z beach: (class-of (find-class 'condition)) => #<STANDARD-CLASS SB-PCL::CONDITION-CLASS>
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2017-01-08T14:57:40Z _death: well, be back later
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2017-01-08T14:59:45Z beach: I think that is pretty standard practice.  Have the metaclass for condition classes be a (not necessarily direct) subclass of CLASS, but not a subclass of BUILT-IN-CLASS.
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2017-01-08T15:13:58Z edgar-rft: beach, _death, jackdaniel, p_l: thanks for the explanations, on #lisp one can learn every day something new :-)
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2017-01-08T15:15:56Z jackdaniel: :)
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2017-01-08T15:33:16Z beach: edgar-rft: Sure.  And I totally agree.  I learn something (almost) every day here.
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2017-01-08T15:39:43Z beach: jackdaniel: Are you still thinking of using Cleavir to write a compiler for ECL?
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2017-01-08T15:41:52Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, after merging new compiler infrastructure I want to incorporate it as an alternative compiler
2017-01-08T15:42:09Z jackdaniel: if it will prove to be better, then it will become default after transition time
2017-01-08T15:42:19Z beach: Great!
2017-01-08T15:42:33Z beach: Do yo plan to generate C code?
2017-01-08T15:42:39Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-01-08T15:42:47Z beach: I think that's wise.
2017-01-08T15:42:55Z jackdaniel: in fact, I have already working compiler switching
2017-01-08T15:42:57Z beach: ... for your use case.
2017-01-08T15:43:06Z jackdaniel: so one may generate C code and C++ code at the same run
2017-01-08T15:43:21Z jackdaniel: I want to incorporate python-boost approach for templates and such
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2017-01-08T15:43:40Z beach: Your working compiler is the improved existing ECL compiler?
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2017-01-08T15:43:44Z jackdaniel: yes, ECL is tightly coupled with posix systems
2017-01-08T15:44:04Z beach: I mean, have you started work on using Cleavir yet?
2017-01-08T15:44:05Z jackdaniel: right, I'm just refactoring it
2017-01-08T15:44:08Z beach: OK.
2017-01-08T15:46:47Z jackdaniel: I'm also documentin environment implementation
2017-01-08T15:49:37Z beach: Sounds like you are making steady progress.
2017-01-08T15:50:35Z jackdaniel: it only sounds that way I'm afraid :) but there is some progress fortunately
2017-01-08T15:51:36Z jackdaniel: also ECL witnessed some valuable contributions lately what is also very exciting
2017-01-08T15:51:53Z beach: Oh?  Like what?
2017-01-08T15:52:34Z jackdaniel: like bug fixes in form of pull requests, feature requests, fixes in external systems, adaptation for other OS'es (ECL was added to haiku-ports recently)
2017-01-08T15:59:56Z Younder: Yes I have negrown respect for ECL
2017-01-08T16:01:09Z Younder: messing (more than working) with clasp has given me more respect for implementing a Lisp.
2017-01-08T16:09:47Z p_l: https://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/functional-programming-section/metacircular-adventures-in-functional-abstraction-challenging-clojure-in-common-lisp/ <---- an usable cells tutorial! (among other things)
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2017-01-08T16:16:27Z flip214: hmmm, I've got an ASD file lying around, and doing sbcl --noinform ... --eval "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op #P"/.../name") results in a control stack overflow.
2017-01-08T16:19:02Z Xach: flip214: it shouldn't overflow, but loading a file is not a way to work anyway.
2017-01-08T16:19:55Z flip214: Xach: yeah, thanks; I could guess that I'm doing something wrong, but as you said - an overflow isn't nice.
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2017-01-08T16:26:42Z malice: Is there a way to give a hash-table a default held value?
2017-01-08T16:26:55Z malice: I don't mean DEFAULT optional argument to gethash
2017-01-08T16:27:07Z malice: Or is there some library that utilizes such an interface?
2017-01-08T16:27:22Z axion: default held value?
2017-01-08T16:27:52Z beach: axion: Wrap the hash table in a custom class.
2017-01-08T16:27:53Z malice: idk if I expressed myself clearly enough, but e.g. in Python, you have something called defaultdict
2017-01-08T16:28:04Z malice: beach: you wanted to adress me, I guess :)
2017-01-08T16:28:16Z beach: OOPS, sorry.  Yes.
2017-01-08T16:28:29Z malice: But, hash-table isn't CLOS, right?
2017-01-08T16:28:49Z beach: By "wrapping" I mean stick a hash table in a slot.
2017-01-08T16:28:50Z malice: I couldn't inherit from hash-table and have generic functions out of the box?
2017-01-08T16:28:53Z beach: But yes, it is CLOS.
2017-01-08T16:29:14Z beach: (defclass my-hash-table () ((%table :initform (make-hash-table))))
2017-01-08T16:29:34Z malice: So I could inherift from hash-table, and just add :around method to gethash that would return default value?
2017-01-08T16:29:44Z malice: in case the element isn't present?
2017-01-08T16:29:53Z beach: No, you can not inherit from hash-table.
2017-01-08T16:29:56Z beach: make it a slot.
2017-01-08T16:30:02Z malice: Too bad!
2017-01-08T16:30:08Z beach: Make it a slot.
2017-01-08T16:30:21Z malice: I understand, I wanted to know the possibilities.
2017-01-08T16:30:35Z malice: I have another question regarding your naming convention. Why %table and not table?
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2017-01-08T16:31:38Z beach: malice: Because typically when you write a class, you want to export the name of the accessor for use by client code (but maybe not this time) and not export the name of the slot.
2017-01-08T16:31:51Z beach: malice: So you typically need two different names.
2017-01-08T16:32:03Z beach: I fix this problem by prefixing the slot name by %.
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2017-01-08T16:33:02Z beach: malice: Another way of looking at it is that slot names are important for only one thing, namely so that DEFCLASS etc can recognize unique slots in a class hierarchy.  They should generally not be used for any access.
2017-01-08T16:34:05Z beach: malice: With this convention, for client code to break the protocol, it would have to write something like package-name::%slot-name which has two indications of danger in it, namely :: and %.
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2017-01-08T16:35:41Z beach: malice: But hash tables are still CLOS.  Try (class-of (make-hash-table)) for instance.
2017-01-08T16:36:05Z malice: Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.
2017-01-08T16:36:17Z beach: Sure.
2017-01-08T16:36:19Z malice: in SBCL it's STRUCTURE-CLASS
2017-01-08T16:36:25Z beach: So?
2017-01-08T16:36:53Z malice: Just wanted to report. Nothing specatcular. I believe the output is implementation-dependant?
2017-01-08T16:37:12Z beach: Yes, I think that's true.
2017-01-08T16:37:31Z beach: I just wanted to show that hash-table is a class, so CLOS is definitely involved.
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2017-01-08T16:39:51Z malice: Isn't CLOS involved for every LISP object in CL?
2017-01-08T16:39:59Z beach: Yes, it is.
2017-01-08T16:40:00Z malice: I mean, (class-of 5) also returns something
2017-01-08T16:40:34Z beach: Which is why "hash-table isn't CLOS, right?" is false.
2017-01-08T16:41:23Z beach: There is no such thing in Common Lisp as "a CLOS class".  Some people use that term to mean a standard class (i.e., an instance of the class STANDARD-CLASS), but there is no support for that usage in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  The only reasonable interpretation of "a CLOS class" is "a class that is part of CLOS" which makes it the same as "a class".
2017-01-08T16:42:59Z malice: That's good to know. What I meant by "hash-table is CLOS" was "can I make child class of hash-table?", which is false.
2017-01-08T16:43:33Z beach: I kind of understood what you meant, but wanted to correct your terminology for next time.
2017-01-08T16:44:00Z beach: And "child class" is really called "subclass" in CLOS.
2017-01-08T16:45:40Z beach: malice: But, subclassing is over-used in OO design anyway.  It is frequently preferable to wrap the object in a different class, so instead of using the "is-a" relation, use a "has-a" relation instead.  It gives much weaker coupling in the design.
2017-01-08T16:46:13Z malice: I don't subclass often, but in this design I guess it would make sense.
2017-01-08T16:46:50Z beach: What you seem to need is something that behaves a bit differently from hash tables, so it makes sense to create your own class.
2017-01-08T16:47:56Z beach: That way, you can do (make-instance my-hash-table :test ... :default-value ...).
2017-01-08T16:49:36Z beach: (defmethod my-gethash ((my-table my-hash-table) key) (gethash (table my-table) key (default-value my-table)))
2017-01-08T16:53:05Z beach: Even if you could subclass hash-table, and assuming GETHASH and (SETF GETHASH) are generic functions, you could not change the signature of GETHASH, so you would have to decide what value to return when the optional default value is given to GETHASH.
2017-01-08T16:55:11Z malice: Right.
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2017-01-08T17:50:24Z malice: Do we have the syntax found in other languages, e.g. Haskell or Python, that you cann use _ in place of value that you don't want to use?
2017-01-08T17:50:29Z malice: Or do we have some library that allows for that?
2017-01-08T17:50:36Z malice: Or am I stuck with (declare (ignore ...)
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2017-01-08T18:22:02Z attila_lendvai: malice: I like using metabang-bind instead of let, mult-val-bind, etc... an it supports _
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2017-01-08T18:46:54Z flip214: for SBCL, is there a way to find out which package uses the most space? Is there some way to get "number of bytes" starting from some pointer (eg. a symbol) or similar?
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2017-01-08T18:47:48Z flip214: yeah, trees of references, so it might not be that easy to find out what belongs to whom, but I'd have hoped for some
2017-01-08T18:47:58Z flip214: hint what part of the forest I can start shaking...
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2017-01-08T18:50:06Z flip214: For example, I guess that quite some functions from loaded systems are not used, and so shouldn't be referenced apart from their symbols...
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2017-01-08T18:55:09Z psylence: Best scheme interpreter?
2017-01-08T18:55:16Z psylence: I've been using chicken. Is there anything better?
2017-01-08T18:55:25Z beach: psylence: This channel is for Common Lisp.
2017-01-08T18:55:30Z psylence: Oh.
2017-01-08T18:55:36Z psylence: I assumed it was lisp+dialects.
2017-01-08T18:55:45Z psylence: My bad.
2017-01-08T18:55:46Z beach: I think there is ##lisp for that.  Not sure.
2017-01-08T18:56:16Z psylence: There's a #scheme. :)
2017-01-08T18:56:19Z psylence: Thanks.
2017-01-08T18:56:21Z psylence: Peace.
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2017-01-08T20:30:55Z aeth: I'm confused by http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/25_ada.htm
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2017-01-08T20:35:15Z phoe: _death: yes, HANDLER-CASE and HANDLER-BIND is something I want in this case. Errors using HANDLER-CASE and non-errors using HANDLER-BIND. And yes, I want the ERROR function. Thanks!
2017-01-08T20:35:18Z aeth: It's not clear to me if the hour it's giving is (- utc time-zone) or (+ utc (- time-zone) (if dst 1 0))
2017-01-08T20:35:47Z aeth: i.e. if the DST modifier changes the time-zone given or if it should be seen as a +/- hour modifier in addition to the time-zone
2017-01-08T20:36:31Z aeth: "does not depend on whether daylight savings time is in effect" unfortunately is also ambiguous imo. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_t.htm#time_zone
2017-01-08T20:37:35Z aeth: "does not depend" could mean that the time zone modifier is constant relative to UTC (i.e. changes with local DST), or constant relative to the local time-zone (i.e. doesn't change with local DST)
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2017-01-08T21:08:47Z aeth: I *think* this is the simple conversion between get-decoded-time and iso-8601-time. http://paste.lisp.org/+77BK
2017-01-08T21:09:27Z aeth: The only complication is the timezone part
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2017-01-08T21:19:20Z lisp613: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336081
2017-01-08T21:19:26Z lisp613: Here's my question
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2017-01-08T21:29:30Z Bike: you could do the same thing, or have it as a dynamic variable, or have the lower calls just return values that are composed into lists by the higher levels.
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2017-01-08T21:30:32Z Bike: ...dynamic variable being roughly equivalent to static, as far as i remember java
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2017-01-08T22:01:25Z antonv: anyone remembers how to get absolute pathname of a file?
2017-01-08T22:01:44Z antonv: the file might be non-existing, so truename doesn't work
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2017-01-08T22:18:26Z Xach: antonv: merge-pathnames might help.
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2017-01-08T22:21:55Z antonv: Xach: I don't remember how. Say file name is "file123", how can I get it's absolute path?
2017-01-08T22:22:22Z antonv: This means to get the absolute path of the default-pathname-defaults
2017-01-08T22:23:30Z Xach: antonv: (merge-pathnames "file123") might get an absolute path.
2017-01-08T22:23:49Z Xach: antonv: or (merge-pathnames "file123" (truename *default-pathname-defaults*)) perhaps.
2017-01-08T22:24:28Z antonv: (merge-pathnames "file123" (truename *default-pathname-defaults*))
2017-01-08T22:24:47Z antonv: This works - I found it in quicklisp.lisp
2017-01-08T22:25:03Z antonv: I remember learning some merge-pahtname tricks from quicklisp code, but forgot now what tricks :)
2017-01-08T22:25:15Z antonv: just (merge-pathnames "file123") didn't work on my CCL
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2017-01-08T22:25:43Z antonv: ok, thanks
2017-01-08T22:27:26Z Xach: so many tricks, so little time
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2017-01-08T22:28:28Z antonv: yes, yes
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2017-01-09T00:32:05Z malice: How can I check maximum fixnum value in SBCL?
2017-01-09T00:32:09Z malice: (at least my version)
2017-01-09T00:32:54Z Bike: most-positive-fixnum
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2017-01-09T01:24:11Z malice: thanks Bike
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2017-01-09T02:42:49Z Fare: Any young lisper around? ASDF could use new developers and future maintainers...
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2017-01-09T02:43:08Z Fare: rvirding, hi!
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2017-01-09T02:45:21Z antonv: how to inspect a LET variable in slime debugger?
2017-01-09T02:45:23Z antonv: (let ((read-val 123)
2017-01-09T02:45:23Z antonv:       (rand-val 124))
2017-01-09T02:45:23Z antonv:   (assert (= rand-val read-val)))
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2017-01-09T02:45:34Z antonv: when it fails, I want to check read-val and rand-val
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2017-01-09T02:58:03Z Xach: antonv: move to the frame and hit "t" to show what variables are available
2017-01-09T02:58:14Z Xach: antonv: if too few, recompile with high debug, perhaps with C-u C-c C-c or similar
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2017-01-09T02:59:23Z Fare: antonv: assert has more arguments
2017-01-09T03:00:39Z antonv: Fare: Xach, thanks
2017-01-09T03:00:58Z antonv: Fare: I'm using more arguments to assert, but see very strange output
2017-01-09T03:01:04Z Fare: Xach: what were the remaining issues if any preventing quicklisp to upgrade from asdf 2.26 ?
2017-01-09T03:01:18Z antonv: (assert (= rand-val read-val)
2017-01-09T03:01:18Z antonv:                      nil
2017-01-09T03:01:18Z antonv:                      "rand-val: ~A, read-val: ~A" rand-val read-val)
2017-01-09T03:01:23Z antonv: when fails, it prints
2017-01-09T03:01:44Z Fare: instead of nil, try (rand-val read-val)
2017-01-09T03:02:30Z antonv: it prints the same digits: "rand-val: 3808526385822096347, read-val: 3808526385822096347"
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2017-01-09T03:08:00Z antonv: Fare: what do you think about shipping asdf3 in Quicklisp as all other libraries
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2017-01-09T03:08:14Z antonv: so that I do (ql:quickload "asdf3") and get the most recent version?
2017-01-09T03:08:45Z Xach: Fare: I am content to let implementations lead the way.
2017-01-09T03:13:14Z antonv: Xach: how about adding "asdf3" as a library to Quicklisp?
2017-01-09T03:13:36Z antonv: to have it available as any other project (ql:quickload "asdf3")
2017-01-09T03:15:57Z antonv: IMHO, the most convenient way is to let user choose what ASDF to use
2017-01-09T03:16:37Z Fare: Xach: you could at least ship 3.1.2 or something compatible with cffi.
2017-01-09T03:16:59Z Fare: modern cffi will have serious issues with something older than asdf 3.1.2
2017-01-09T03:17:32Z Fare: shipping asdf 2.26 is more of a liability than asset
2017-01-09T03:18:04Z Fare: considering that all maintained implementations now ship asdf 3.1.2 or later, I'm not too worried, though
2017-01-09T03:18:55Z Fare: antonv, equality on floating point numbers can be "interesting"
2017-01-09T03:19:13Z antonv: Fare: they are integers
2017-01-09T03:20:37Z antonv: I have inspected them in debugger, very strange http://paste.lisp.org/display/336108
2017-01-09T03:21:31Z antonv: the same binary representation
2017-01-09T03:21:50Z antonv: but one has Integer-length: 64 and another has  Integer-length: 62
2017-01-09T03:21:55Z Fare: ?
2017-01-09T03:22:09Z antonv: 1.3031899E+19 vs  3.8085263E+18
2017-01-09T03:22:38Z Fare: antonv, oh, might it be an issue with fixnum vs (unsigned-byte 64) representation selection?
2017-01-09T03:23:43Z antonv: difficult to say
2017-01-09T03:24:07Z antonv: strange that = fails for them
2017-01-09T03:24:14Z Fare: a different version of the compiler and/or of optimize settings might make the bug disappear
2017-01-09T03:24:24Z Fare: who is "them"?
2017-01-09T03:24:46Z antonv: CCL, 32 bit
2017-01-09T03:24:46Z Fare: Xach: if you stopped shipping asdf at all, that would be good, too
2017-01-09T03:25:02Z antonv: default compilation settings
2017-01-09T03:25:10Z antonv: That's how I reproduce the failure:
2017-01-09T03:25:11Z antonv: (dotimes (i 100000)
2017-01-09T03:25:11Z antonv:   (let* ((rand-val (random #.(1- (expt 2 64)) *rnd-state*))
2017-01-09T03:25:11Z antonv:          (read-val (read-from-string (with-output-to-string (o)
2017-01-09T03:25:14Z antonv:                                        (pprint rand-val o)))))
2017-01-09T03:25:17Z antonv:     (assert (= rand-val read-val)
2017-01-09T03:25:20Z antonv:             nil
2017-01-09T03:25:23Z antonv:             "rand-val: ~S, read-val: ~S" rand-val read-val)))
2017-01-09T03:25:27Z antonv:  
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2017-01-09T03:29:54Z antonv: if shipping ASDF as a library, we can have it updated every month
2017-01-09T03:29:59Z Bike: see it here too. how bizarre.
2017-01-09T03:30:34Z antonv: Bike: what lisp implementation?
2017-01-09T03:30:47Z Bike: ccl 32 bit like you said. no error on 64 bit sbcl or ccl.
2017-01-09T03:31:40Z antonv: yes
2017-01-09T03:32:17Z Fare: antonv, asdf has to be loaded earlier than the rest, especially since quicklisp will patch and/or configure it, which may be lost on an upgrade.
2017-01-09T03:33:03Z antonv: Fare: as I know quicklisp doesn't patch it. Configuration doesn't survive upgrade?
2017-01-09T03:33:55Z Fare: antonv, depends what configuration, and upgrading from which version.
2017-01-09T03:34:02Z Fare: It's not guaranteed to survive upgrade.
2017-01-09T03:34:06Z Fare: in general
2017-01-09T03:34:47Z Fare: and btw, NOTHING survives an upgrade from asdf2 (including 2.26) to asdf3
2017-01-09T03:34:59Z Fare: so shipping asdf 2.26 is worse than useless.
2017-01-09T03:36:35Z Bike: works in the repl. maybe it's some kind of misoptimization.
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2017-01-09T03:42:34Z antonv: Bike: in repl versus slime?
2017-01-09T03:42:53Z Bike: i mean just doing the equality in the repl goes fine
2017-01-09T03:42:58Z antonv: Bike: it doesn't fail 100% of times, repeate several times
2017-01-09T03:43:13Z antonv: a, you mean when using literals?
2017-01-09T03:43:19Z Bike: yes
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2017-01-09T03:45:29Z antonv: Bike: it fails when one value is computed by randon and another is produced by read
2017-01-09T03:45:42Z Bike: not for me
2017-01-09T03:45:46Z antonv: when we use literals, both values are produced by read
2017-01-09T03:46:20Z antonv: Bike: how not for you? I thought you reproduced it
2017-01-09T03:46:52Z Bike: with literals, i meant
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2017-01-09T03:47:44Z antonv: yes and I explain that it fails when it's not literals; when one value is produced by cl:random
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2017-01-09T03:47:52Z antonv: instead of being read by lisp reader from REPL
2017-01-09T03:50:15Z Bike: arithmetic seems to fix it too
2017-01-09T03:50:37Z Bike: er, this makes no sense actually
2017-01-09T03:51:20Z antonv: I emailed openmcl-devel
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2017-01-09T05:55:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-01-09T05:56:58Z axion: Morning, beach.
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2017-01-09T06:59:39Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2017-01-09T07:06:39Z rvirding: Fare hi
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2017-01-09T08:35:51Z jdz: Hello rvirding!
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2017-01-09T09:35:24Z tetero: Morning! Why does (type-of ()) ==> NULL instead of nil, and why does both NULL and nil exist?
2017-01-09T09:35:50Z tetero: is it that NULL is the type of nil?
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2017-01-09T09:37:26Z tetero: (type-of t) ==> BOOLEAN which I'd expect (type-of nil) to do as well, but (type-of nil) ==> NULL as above
2017-01-09T09:38:59Z jdz: (typep nil 'boolean) => T
2017-01-09T09:39:48Z jdz: (subtypep 'null 'boolean) => T, T
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2017-01-09T09:40:03Z beach: tetero: Yes, the type of NIL is NULL.
2017-01-09T09:40:15Z beach: tetero: The type NIL is the type that contains no objects.
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2017-01-09T09:41:43Z tetero: Hmm
2017-01-09T09:42:02Z beach: The type of an object is not necessarily unique.
2017-01-09T09:42:17Z tetero: I still don't understand why (type-of nil) ==> NULL instead of BOOLEAN
2017-01-09T09:42:54Z jackdaniel: tetero: try (typep nil 'boolean)
2017-01-09T09:43:03Z beach: clhs type-of
2017-01-09T09:43:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm
2017-01-09T09:43:18Z jackdaniel: something may be for instance a float, but its type is also a number
2017-01-09T09:43:27Z jackdaniel: the most specific type is float though
2017-01-09T09:44:12Z tetero: jackdaniel: Yeah that I understand
2017-01-09T09:44:14Z beach: tetero: As you can see from that page, the implementation has some freedom in what is returned by TYPE-OF.
2017-01-09T09:45:39Z tetero: beach: Ah. I was thinking that it might be something in the lines of, since everything in common lisp is true except nil, it'd make sense that type-of nil ==> NULL and not BOOLEAN in some way
2017-01-09T09:46:17Z beach: NIL is of type Boolean as well, but the implementation can choose what it wants to return.
2017-01-09T09:46:18Z tetero: I'm still learning and I still haven't wrapped my head around the language
2017-01-09T09:46:37Z beach: NIL is also of type LIST.
2017-01-09T09:46:41Z tetero: beach: Ah. Yeah
2017-01-09T09:47:05Z beach: ... and SYMBOL.
2017-01-09T09:47:14Z tetero: beach: Really? I know () was equivalent to NIL but I didn't know that NIL was equivalent to (). Although that makes sense I suppose
2017-01-09T09:47:40Z beach: Er, equivalence is commutative.
2017-01-09T09:47:53Z beach: When the reader sees () it returns the symbol NIL.
2017-01-09T09:48:03Z jackdaniel: tetero: Common Lisp has two independent concepts – classes and types, the former has somewhat clear semantics, while the latter may be even undecidable for an object
2017-01-09T09:48:26Z jackdaniel: (to determine, if the object is of some type)
2017-01-09T09:48:27Z beach: jackdaniel: Not "undecidable".
2017-01-09T09:48:34Z tetero: jackdaniel: Oh.
2017-01-09T09:48:42Z jackdaniel: because you may put arbitrary predicate for a type
2017-01-09T09:48:46Z jackdaniel: beach: what do you mean?
2017-01-09T09:48:56Z beach: jackdaniel: "undecidable" means something very specific in computer science.
2017-01-09T09:50:08Z tetero: It came up while doing lisp-koans which was recommended here. I really enjoy it
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2017-01-09T09:50:25Z jackdaniel: if you may have arbitrary predicate for a type, you may define a type in terms of undecidable problem, no?
2017-01-09T09:50:32Z beach: jackdaniel: OK, I agree, it is undecidable whether X is of some type.
2017-01-09T09:50:49Z beach: jackdaniel: But it is always possible to come up with SOME type for any object.
2017-01-09T09:51:03Z jackdaniel: yes, I agree with that :)
2017-01-09T09:51:07Z beach: OK, good.
2017-01-09T09:51:14Z jackdaniel: everything is a subtype of T in a first place
2017-01-09T09:51:20Z beach: Indeed.
2017-01-09T09:52:33Z beach: tetero: Try (read-from-string "()") and you will see that the reader returns NIL.
2017-01-09T09:54:01Z tetero: One thing I've noticed so far (coming from Java originally) is that when lisp-koans challenged me to write a function for something I am often first trying to write it as I would in an imperative language. The second or third attempt is usually better lisp-approaches
2017-01-09T09:54:35Z tetero: beach: It returns NIL 2 :)
2017-01-09T09:54:37Z beach: tetero: Common Lisp is an imperative language.
2017-01-09T09:54:51Z beach: [among other paradigms]
2017-01-09T09:55:46Z tetero: beach: That I know. But my point is that I was limiting myself to the approach I would in my previous language in a language that offers more flexibility in doing it better in another way
2017-01-09T09:55:50Z beach: tetero: It is also object oriented.  CLOS is one of the most powerful object systems around.
2017-01-09T09:56:09Z beach: tetero: I see.
2017-01-09T09:56:11Z tetero: beach: I haven't gotten to the part of learning about CLOS yet
2017-01-09T09:56:47Z beach: tetero: Do you have a Common Lisp implementation installed already?
2017-01-09T09:56:56Z tetero: beach: Yeah. sbcl
2017-01-09T09:57:12Z tetero: beach: I'm reading practical common lisp and doing lisp-koans
2017-01-09T09:57:14Z beach: tetero: The usual recommendation here is to use Quicklisp to install SLIME.
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2017-01-09T09:57:28Z tetero: Aye. quicklisp/slime/emacs
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2017-01-09T09:57:50Z beach: ... and to use the SLIME contribution SLIME-INDENTATION to get the indentation right.
2017-01-09T09:57:51Z tetero: I'm just using vim at the moment as I'm just doing koans and some small learning-projects still
2017-01-09T09:58:06Z beach: OK.
2017-01-09T09:58:22Z tetero: I just set the indentation in the vimrc
2017-01-09T09:58:45Z beach: It is tricky to get it right without SLIME-INDENTATION.
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2017-01-09T09:59:37Z tetero: beach: How so?
2017-01-09T10:00:12Z beach: Your editor needs to know quite a lot about Common Lisp to get indentation right.
2017-01-09T10:01:27Z beach: Even the normal Lisp mode of Emacs gets it wrong for some things, for example LOOP.
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2017-01-09T10:02:33Z tetero: beach: Yeah when doing certain things like using loop which is like its own little language the indentation can get a bit off with default vim settings. But it's nothing major when doing learning projects
2017-01-09T10:03:16Z tetero: beach: I tend to prefer vim for small learning things and IDE's for larger amounts of code
2017-01-09T10:03:56Z rvirding: Hi jdz
2017-01-09T10:03:57Z jackdaniel: tetero: with CL having good editor integration with language is essential, because you often do a surgery on a living organism of your code
2017-01-09T10:04:17Z jackdaniel: (I mean – you have access to REPL, you may compile code when application is running etc)
2017-01-09T10:04:47Z jackdaniel: so when you change something in your code it is *very* handy to be able to recompile it
2017-01-09T10:05:02Z tetero: jackdaniel: Yeah I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that I don't need it for the level of code I'm writing now while learning (lisp-koans, for example)
2017-01-09T10:05:03Z jackdaniel: and incremental development is very typical for Common Lisp programmers
2017-01-09T10:05:22Z jackdaniel: OK
2017-01-09T10:06:02Z djh: tetero: there are lisp koans? where?
2017-01-09T10:06:15Z jackdaniel: djh: on github
2017-01-09T10:06:17Z jackdaniel: made by google
2017-01-09T10:06:19Z jackdaniel: easy to find
2017-01-09T10:06:25Z djh: cool, ty
2017-01-09T10:06:26Z tetero: jackdaniel: I'm not anti-IDE or anti-emacs or anything like that. I just like vim as a quick-to-edit simple stuff editor that works great for stuff like lisp-koans. I used vim for early java exercises too. When I started doing something more serious I used intellij idea
2017-01-09T10:06:38Z tetero: djh: Do them! They're lots of fun! :)
2017-01-09T10:07:03Z djh: Oh, I shall, I've been looking for useful Lisp exercises
2017-01-09T10:07:11Z jackdaniel: tetero: right, I just wanted to inform you what you miss – since you are aware of that then its OK :)
2017-01-09T10:07:23Z beach: tetero: The reason I insist on indentation is that, whenever you want someone else to read your code, that someone else typically relies on indentation to determine the structure of your code.  And if it is wrong, that person can not trust it, so you basically force him or her to count parentheses, and that is not polite.
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2017-01-09T10:08:42Z tetero: jackdaniel: Ahh. No, I think IDE's are great when you're coding for real
2017-01-09T10:09:19Z jackdaniel doesn't like IDE's :P
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2017-01-09T10:10:11Z beach: jackdaniel: You don't like the existing ones, or you don't like the very idea of one?
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2017-01-09T10:10:24Z tetero: beach: vim by default highlights the opening and closing parenthesis so that hasn't been a problem. There's also plugins that rainbow colours it and so forth. The indentation is quite accurate and just messes up occassionally when (for example) using loop. But you just fix that manually
2017-01-09T10:10:55Z jackdaniel: beach: I don't like existing ones, they often get in my way
2017-01-09T10:11:03Z jackdaniel: instead of simplifying things
2017-01-09T10:11:04Z jackdaniel: brb
2017-01-09T10:11:21Z tetero: beach: Then you can of course add a bunch of plugins to vim to make it into more of an IDE. I'm pretty sure Emacs has an edge to that when it comes to Lisp though.
2017-01-09T10:12:26Z Cymew: Now I'm also kind of curious about these koans
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2017-01-09T10:13:56Z tetero: beach: In vim if your cur is on a closing parenthesis the opening parenthesis for it is highlighted, if you have one too many closing parenthesis it'll be highlighted in red and so forth. Without any additional plugins, so it's not that bad
2017-01-09T10:14:46Z beach: tetero: I believe you.  I am just telling you what to expect if you submit badly indented code for others to read.
2017-01-09T10:16:12Z tetero: beach: Ah. I'm not at that point yet. But I fix the indentation when vim doesn't automatically does it. After I learn more I'm most likely going to go for ql + slime + emacs
2017-01-09T10:17:06Z tetero: beach: But for stuff like lisp-koans I think vim is great. Even screwing up things that the IDE would've pointed out is a learning experience
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2017-01-09T10:33:54Z tetero: beach: But you know that there are slime integrations (and a bunch of plugs for all kinds of things) for vim right? In the case of lisp I'm sure emacs is better, but a lot of people just think that vim isn't very powerful
2017-01-09T10:37:24Z beach: tetero: I have no opinion about the power of vim.  I used vi briefly in 1983 before there was a version of Emacs on the Unix system I was using then.  I haven't used it or its successors since then.
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2017-01-09T10:38:16Z tetero: beach: Ah. Things have changed a bit from the days of vi :)
2017-01-09T10:39:20Z beach: tetero: I try my best not to have an opinion about things I know next to nothing about.
2017-01-09T10:39:41Z tetero: beach: That's not a bad philosophy
2017-01-09T10:39:44Z beach: ... which doesn't seem to be the case for some other people.
2017-01-09T10:39:57Z tetero: I have noticed that ^^
2017-01-09T10:40:25Z beach: Here in #lisp, we get more than our share of them. :)
2017-01-09T10:40:49Z tetero: beach: I also don't fanboi things so I never cared about the whole vim vs emacs things or any other OS politics. I just use what I like when I like it for what I like it when I feel like it
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2017-01-09T10:51:49Z flip214: tetero: do you know about the slimv plugin for vim?
2017-01-09T10:53:36Z tetero: flip214: I know -of- it, but I haven't installed it yet
2017-01-09T10:54:05Z djh is a vim user, has tried various ways to do vi-and-slime and not found any to be usable
2017-01-09T10:54:18Z tetero: flip214: I'm changing from vundle to plug and I've yet to update my config
2017-01-09T10:54:50Z tetero: djh: As I said earlier. Emacs probably has the edge to vim when it comes to lisp and that stuff
2017-01-09T10:55:00Z djh: yep, can't argue that
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2017-01-09T10:55:56Z tetero: Personally I view vim more as a powerful editor rather than an IDE. Even though you can transform it into one
2017-01-09T10:56:40Z tetero: If I want to quick-edit any text file I usually opt for vim. It probably wouldn't be my first choice for some big coding project
2017-01-09T10:57:35Z tetero: I view emacs as an IDE. Personally I wouldn't reach for it to quickly change a setting in a simple text file
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2017-01-09T12:00:58Z otwieracz: I need to access curent backtrace - how to do this properly?
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2017-01-09T12:01:20Z Xach: otwieracz: trivial-backtrace is one easy way
2017-01-09T12:02:29Z otwieracz: Thank you!
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2017-01-09T13:03:22Z XdilaudidX: Hey guys, anyone got sources for semi decent lisp basic system software that'll run in genera?
2017-01-09T13:04:05Z XdilaudidX: I'm coding something like a Genera distro, with everything you need.
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2017-01-09T13:04:31Z XdilaudidX: A calculator, some point and click games, etc
2017-01-09T13:05:30Z XdilaudidX: Even got an irc client going
2017-01-09T13:06:41Z Cymew: Not sure what you are asking about.
2017-01-09T13:07:08Z Cymew: You mean Genera like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_(operating_system)?
2017-01-09T13:07:25Z Cymew: In that case you might want to look at https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2017-01-09T13:08:00Z ecraven: XdilaudidX: in genera, *everything* is lisp
2017-01-09T13:09:06Z XdilaudidX: I know everything is lisp!  It's nice and elegant, I'm just trying to bring it a bit up to date.
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2017-01-09T13:09:36Z XdilaudidX: I wrote an IRC client for it, a calculator...
2017-01-09T13:10:02Z ecraven: are you talking about Open Genera?
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2017-01-09T13:10:19Z XdilaudidX: Yes, Open Genera
2017-01-09T13:11:32Z XdilaudidX: I wish I had some of the Symbolics backup tapes
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2017-01-09T13:12:02Z Cymew: Developing for Open Genera these days are not optimal if you want to share your code. It's not exactly widely available.
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2017-01-09T13:12:13Z XdilaudidX: Someone wrote a Windows like GUI for it called Jinn
2017-01-09T13:12:25Z XdilaudidX: Oh it's on archive.org
2017-01-09T13:12:39Z Cymew: Jinn?
2017-01-09T13:13:11Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-01-09T13:13:42Z XdilaudidX: And I've been legally advised to release it even more widely, because apparently the putative copyright holder hasn't got a leg to stand on.
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2017-01-09T13:14:33Z Cymew: Good luck.
2017-01-09T13:15:00Z XdilaudidX: The code, legally speaking, belongs to nobody.  Not M., not DKS, nobody at all.
2017-01-09T13:15:07Z XdilaudidX: Op
2017-01-09T13:16:15Z Cymew: If you want to do system development style things in cl and be able to share the code and have a solid legal ground without going through potential court battes, I'd look at Mezzano. But, I'm no lawyers, and not interested to dive into that morass.
2017-01-09T13:16:25Z XdilaudidX: Yeah thanks.  At least my IRC client for opengenera 3.0 actually works.
2017-01-09T13:16:45Z Cymew: That's good.
2017-01-09T13:17:35Z XdilaudidX: Mezzano is too slow and clunky for my taste, although I've told froggey and a couple others they could have my calculator.
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2017-01-09T13:18:40Z XdilaudidX: The irc thing too, although I wrote that after my conversation
2017-01-09T13:19:04Z Cymew: Well, it's not exactly "enterprise ready", no.
2017-01-09T13:19:18Z ecraven: how can the code belong to no one? shouldn't someone have "inherited" it?
2017-01-09T13:19:51Z Cymew: If Mezzano had as many hackers pound on it as Genera had, it would probably be a lot slicker.
2017-01-09T13:21:28Z dlowe: paid full-time hackers
2017-01-09T13:21:32Z dlowe: from MIT
2017-01-09T13:22:55Z Cymew: If I won a big lottery, I'd spend some time on it myself. Not sure it would help much, as I'm not great, and I don't buy many lottery tickets. ;)
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2017-01-09T13:58:57Z foobar_: hello do lisp programs stick to not more than 80 columns wide ?
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2017-01-09T14:01:41Z beach: foobar_: There is no such rule.
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2017-01-09T14:02:18Z beach: foobar_: I personally try to limit the width to 80 columns or so, but that is because of the kind of monitor I have, and the fact that I like to split the screen in two vertically.
2017-01-09T14:02:46Z foobar_: beach: ah i work with horizontal split so i was wondering
2017-01-09T14:03:07Z jackdaniel: I try to limit lines to 80 (to keep 3 columns horizontally)
2017-01-09T14:03:22Z beach: I want to be able to see as many lines as possible, hence the vertical split.
2017-01-09T14:03:26Z dlowe: My personal limit is 100
2017-01-09T14:03:41Z dlowe: with a soft limit of around 80
2017-01-09T14:03:53Z foobar_: sometimes it seems difficult to limit to 80 because of indentation
2017-01-09T14:04:07Z dlowe: Linus's answer to that is that you're using too much indentation
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2017-01-09T14:04:12Z beach: foobar_: Indeed.  Using LET* helps.
2017-01-09T14:04:13Z dlowe: and need to break it up into functions
2017-01-09T14:04:30Z beach: ... and that.
2017-01-09T14:04:43Z foobar_: well everytime i use nested loops it becomes more than 100
2017-01-09T14:05:12Z Cymew: Sounds like you need more line breaks. ;)
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2017-01-09T14:05:55Z foobar_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336149
2017-01-09T14:06:01Z foobar_: looks ugly :/
2017-01-09T14:06:10Z loke: Lisp code with only 80 chars width is unbearable.
2017-01-09T14:06:44Z loke: I used to stick with 80 chars, and then I realised that id had been 10 years since i had even seen a glass terminal, so I figured it was time to ditch that standard.
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2017-01-09T14:07:51Z beach: foobar_: You could probably turn the inner loop into another macro.
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2017-01-09T14:09:45Z Cymew: I tend to align AND sexps vertically, which would narrow it down a bit. Doesn't look excessive otherwise.
2017-01-09T14:11:30Z foobar_: beach: i am not sure
2017-01-09T14:11:55Z foobar_: besides i am only using a macro for conditional codegen
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2017-01-09T14:12:57Z beach: Why is this a macro in the first place?
2017-01-09T14:13:13Z beach: It looks like it ought to be a function.
2017-01-09T14:13:21Z beach: And it looks like the inner loop could be a function too.
2017-01-09T14:13:33Z foobar_: i didn't want to check cv1 cv2
2017-01-09T14:13:58Z beach: ?
2017-01-09T14:14:21Z foobar_: there are 2 functions solve1 with no optional and solve2 with both cv1 and cv2
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2017-01-09T14:14:47Z foobar_: but i didn't want to check for non nil cv1 cv2 for solve1
2017-01-09T14:15:56Z foobar_: it's like cpp template with a bool variable to generate 2 versions of the same function
2017-01-09T14:16:25Z dlowe: loke: it predates glass terminals by a bit :) The standard IBM punch card is 80 bytes wide.
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2017-01-09T14:17:53Z beach: foobar_: I think you have a violation of the standard in there.  As I recall there is a general rule that you can't mess with the contents of the hash table while you are iterating over its elements.
2017-01-09T14:18:26Z foobar_: pretty sure i can delete the one i am currently iterating now
2017-01-09T14:18:47Z beach: You are right.  I didn't look carefully enough.
2017-01-09T14:20:58Z beach: Anyway, I think you can easily break this macro into several if you do want to limit the line length.
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2017-01-09T14:22:53Z foobar_: probably can make the inner loop into a flet function
2017-01-09T14:23:25Z beach: Or just turn it into a macro called like this: (solve-aux ,cv1 ,cv2)
2017-01-09T14:23:46Z beach: The body of the macro solve-aux would just be the inner loop.
2017-01-09T14:24:11Z TMA: and the code should be in columns 7 to 72 IIRC. even the 80 is way too optimistic
2017-01-09T14:24:40Z foobar_: beach: right
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2017-01-09T14:26:30Z megachomba: hi im searching someone experienced in lisp for solve some problems of my exam. im whiling to pay if needed! anyone?
2017-01-09T14:26:48Z Devon: lol
2017-01-09T14:27:09Z beach: I should hope not.
2017-01-09T14:27:12Z Devon: shouldn't you be asking at plagiarism.com instead?
2017-01-09T14:27:37Z megachomba: well, nothing wrong in asking for help
2017-01-09T14:27:50Z Devon: in committing a crime
2017-01-09T14:28:05Z Devon: My advice to you is, don't rob that bank
2017-01-09T14:28:16Z foobar_: XD
2017-01-09T14:28:41Z foobar_: megachomba: you sound like a troll
2017-01-09T14:28:55Z foobar_: megachomba: you would get insta banned in ##c
2017-01-09T14:29:14Z megachomba: not robbing to the bank. i have lisp questions that i dont know to answer myself, im pretty sure those questions will be in tomorow exam, but i have no clue on how to answer them myself.
2017-01-09T14:30:31Z megachomba: as it takes a bit of time, im wiling to pay for people time that could help me out
2017-01-09T14:30:35Z Devon: Ask your classmates - oh wait, you're an avatar for the plagiarists' fund
2017-01-09T14:31:05Z Devon: Ok, but only with a note from your professor
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2017-01-09T14:31:53Z flip214: megachomba: it might have gone better if you'd just asked one question after another here, without all the explanations ;)
2017-01-09T14:32:10Z megachomba: i can try to
2017-01-09T14:37:33Z sjl: Suppose I've got a list like (1 2 3 :no-separator 4).
2017-01-09T14:37:35Z sjl: I want to add a separator element between each element, EXCEPT where :no-separator appears.
2017-01-09T14:37:37Z sjl: So for (1 2 3 :no-separator 4) I'd want to get (1 sep 2 sep 3 4).
2017-01-09T14:37:39Z sjl: Is there an elegant way to do this?  I've got a nasty (iterate) form but would like something prettier...
2017-01-09T14:38:10Z flip214: sjl: insert everywhere, and split sequences :no-sep sep :no-sep out?
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2017-01-09T14:38:28Z flip214: and with iterate and PREVIOUS it shouldn't be _that_ nasty, is it?
2017-01-09T14:38:57Z sjl: nasty version: http://paste.stevelosh.com/5873a07955f4c000082b7b9e
2017-01-09T14:39:16Z sjl: :. is the "no-separator marker" and a string space is the separator, in my case
2017-01-09T14:40:10Z sjl: split + reconcat could work
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2017-01-09T14:47:40Z XdilaudidX: Hey beach
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2017-01-09T14:48:04Z XdilaudidX: I got an irc client for lisp written too
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2017-01-09T14:51:58Z XdilaudidX: Anyone use genera or open genera as a semi production environment?
2017-01-09T14:52:29Z XdilaudidX: I've been pounding on it for a bit and the results are starting to feel somewhat usable
2017-01-09T14:52:30Z Xach: sjl: that's not especially nasty.
2017-01-09T14:53:18Z Xach: XdilaudidX: It's pretty expensive, isn't it?
2017-01-09T14:53:22Z Cymew: I actually find it kind of interesting what people consider as basic tools. Way back everyone made their own editor, or their own 'make' replacement. I wonder how many people consider an irc client "basic tools" these days. It is for me, but I wonder how typical I am.
2017-01-09T14:53:47Z dlowe: Cymew: erc is built into emacs now, so at least GNU agrees with you :)
2017-01-09T14:53:59Z XdilaudidX: Well it's expensive if you want to buy it from dks symbolics
2017-01-09T14:53:59Z Cymew: dlowe: Good point. :)
2017-01-09T14:54:18Z Xach: XdilaudidX: Is there another vendor?
2017-01-09T14:54:27Z XdilaudidX: But counsel has advised me that basically nobody holds on to copyright these days
2017-01-09T14:55:03Z Xach: I didn't have that impression.
2017-01-09T14:55:05Z varjag: ..ok
2017-01-09T14:56:34Z XdilaudidX: Essentially, the word Genera is a trademark that passed into the hands of someone I will refer to as M.
2017-01-09T14:56:58Z XdilaudidX: This is after Symbolics CEO died
2017-01-09T14:57:42Z XdilaudidX: M. owns the Symbolics name and logo, the word Genera, etc
2017-01-09T14:57:54Z sjl: slightly less nasty version: http://paste.stevelosh.com/5873a4db55f4c000082b7b9f
2017-01-09T14:58:12Z XdilaudidX: But not the Genera source
2017-01-09T14:58:14Z z0d: XdilaudidX: I think he already stated that he was not interested in open sourcing it
2017-01-09T14:58:28Z Xach: I am not interested in the history, sorry. I was under the impression that it was actively developed and sold, so I am not interested in discussing how to get it without paying.
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2017-01-09T14:59:17Z z0d: Xach: actively developed? well, I would be very surprised
2017-01-09T14:59:32Z XdilaudidX: How can you open source something you don't legally own?  That's the Manuel Lauro question
2017-01-09T15:00:01Z XdilaudidX: Sold yes, for military and hobbyists.  Actively developed, no.
2017-01-09T15:00:02Z Cymew: Genera being actively developed, that I don't think I've ever heard.
2017-01-09T15:00:33Z Cymew: At least not after Symbolics closed their doors.
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2017-01-09T15:00:59Z XdilaudidX: And because of trouble with Symbolics, the Army terminated the contract.
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2017-01-09T15:01:29Z XdilaudidX: They essentially came to the same conclusion as I did with Dr Lauro
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2017-01-09T15:04:34Z XdilaudidX: I'm trying to do a bit of development on it, while possibly sharing my work with the Lisp community
2017-01-09T15:05:26Z z0d: who owns the copyright then?
2017-01-09T15:05:43Z ecraven: XdilaudidX: why does that guy own everything *but* the source code?
2017-01-09T15:05:46Z XdilaudidX: Nobody does, theoretically.
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2017-01-09T15:06:00Z ecraven: but how did it move from being owned by somebody to being owned by nobody?
2017-01-09T15:06:06Z ecraven: wouldn't someone have to "set it free"?
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2017-01-09T15:06:27Z XdilaudidX: Because the previous owner died, is the short story.
2017-01-09T15:06:35Z ecraven: what about his heirs?
2017-01-09T15:06:38Z ecraven: wouldn't they inherit
2017-01-09T15:06:38Z ecraven:  
2017-01-09T15:07:21Z XdilaudidX: No kids.  Mallett was apparently designated to inherit company assets.
2017-01-09T15:07:38Z ecraven: siblings? parents? not sure how inheritance law works in the us
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2017-01-09T15:08:00Z dlowe: ecraven: state by state
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2017-01-09T15:10:46Z XdilaudidX: This is where the grey area sets in.  It was a corporation whose single shareholder was misspelled.  Somehow, the court couldn't figure out whether the source was an asset or not, because copyright you have to reassert periodically.
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2017-01-09T15:11:56Z XdilaudidX: In other words, if somebody infringes, you have to give them a cease and desist or a DMCA notice.
2017-01-09T15:12:23Z dlowe: You do not have to reassert copyright. It is trademarks that must be asserted.
2017-01-09T15:12:39Z XdilaudidX: Or you have to work on the code.
2017-01-09T15:13:26Z XdilaudidX: Well, in any case, this is what I heard from my lawyer after an investigation that cost me... Five figures is all I'll say.
2017-01-09T15:13:40Z Cymew: Ouch!
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2017-01-09T15:14:10Z XdilaudidX: No worries, I can play with that kind of money.
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2017-01-09T15:14:36Z XdilaudidX: I wanted an open source Lisp machine.  I got it.
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2017-01-09T15:15:32Z Devon: The hacker who seems to hold Symbolics' assets also wrote cl-http, is that still in use?
2017-01-09T15:15:46Z XdilaudidX: It was mostly because the putative copyright holder took pains to hide himself.
2017-01-09T15:16:26Z XdilaudidX: So actually finding that all roads led back to M. was the trouble.
2017-01-09T15:17:04Z Devon: Despite claims that cl-http is available, I was never able to get a copy except by collaring the author in person.
2017-01-09T15:17:43Z XdilaudidX: Jinn, a gui for genera, is also floating out there.
2017-01-09T15:18:20Z XdilaudidX: On one of the Symbolics backup tapes, I think.
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2017-01-09T15:18:55Z ecraven: I only know snap4
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2017-01-09T15:19:19Z XdilaudidX: Devon do you mean DKS or M.?
2017-01-09T15:19:31Z ecraven: Also, the cadr is open source, isn't it?
2017-01-09T15:19:43Z Devon: I now use LMITI System 130 developed by the bros. Silverman in Canada and RG who initiated the LispM project.
2017-01-09T15:19:57Z Devon: I mean M.
2017-01-09T15:20:34Z _death: sjl: here's a version using MAPCON: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336154
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2017-01-09T15:21:11Z _death: eh, unoptimal indentation
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2017-01-09T15:22:03Z XdilaudidX: He's talented, that I can say.  Surprised you got more than two words out of him.
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2017-01-09T15:23:17Z XdilaudidX: M. had military contracts worth six figures per year.
2017-01-09T15:23:21Z Devon: sjl: Here's another at http://paste.lisp.org/+77DN
2017-01-09T15:23:50Z XdilaudidX: I'm not surprised he's not interested in open sourcing.
2017-01-09T15:24:23Z Devon: XdilaudidX: lol, he's a busy guy but if you know his special passions, he'll give you time.
2017-01-09T15:24:39Z _death: Devon: good ol' trick :)
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2017-01-09T15:25:30Z XdilaudidX: Although the contracts have lapsed for two years now.  I'm curious to know what he's living off of but don't want to feed the lawyer
2017-01-09T15:26:15Z Devon: I'll ask about Genera next time I visit his Lab.
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2017-01-09T15:28:40Z Devon: I have a VirtualBox image running LMITI System 130 which is not nearly as grand as Genera, I just need a QFILE server on a file host to make it useful, that and port the emulator to SDL2 so I can have multiple windows and external copy/paste.
2017-01-09T15:28:47Z XdilaudidX: It's a good system.  I'm trying to keep it alive by writing the necessary application software.
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2017-01-09T15:29:36Z Devon: Does it still overprint when you re-render a decimal number as binary?
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2017-01-09T15:30:47Z XdilaudidX: Haven't tried it so can't say.  I bet it still would because Genera hasn't been developed since 1995 except for bug fixes
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2017-01-09T15:31:53Z XdilaudidX: I've mostly been using off the shelf Lisp code and wrapping it in whatever was used to replace Flavours
2017-01-09T15:32:03Z Devon: XdilaudidX: web browsers re-wrap, often rather badly.
2017-01-09T15:32:30Z Devon: Anyone have Flavors in Common Lisp?
2017-01-09T15:32:37Z XdilaudidX: Ouch.  Might try fixing it.
2017-01-09T15:32:50Z XdilaudidX: But it'll be a pain.
2017-01-09T15:32:58Z Devon: That's speed up porting the QFILE server from LispM System 130.
2017-01-09T15:33:07Z XdilaudidX: Still less of a pain than Java
2017-01-09T15:34:20Z XdilaudidX: I tried Java for a few days and gave up.  Haskell is more my bag but it too drives me to drink sometimes
2017-01-09T15:34:53Z Devon: lol (and I only write that when it's true) Haskell is great.
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2017-01-09T15:36:00Z XdilaudidX: I like Haskell.  As for many Brits, it was my first real programming language
2017-01-09T15:36:09Z Devon: How can I prove that no positive integer squared ends in the digits 012?
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2017-01-09T15:37:04Z XdilaudidX: But because everything is C and Java, I don't consider myself a real programmer.
2017-01-09T15:37:05Z Devon: (oops, wrong window, now all the real hackers are whipping out garlic and crosses)
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2017-01-09T15:37:44Z Devon: C and Java are toys!  You need 72-bit words to do anything useful.
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2017-01-09T15:38:50Z XdilaudidX: Like I work in Haskell and Lisp.  Exclusively.  Fortran 66 if I absolutely must but I hate it
2017-01-09T15:40:01Z XdilaudidX: If I need something quick and dirty, I try Lisp
2017-01-09T15:40:41Z XdilaudidX: There are the people that laugh at me, and then there are the people that stare bug eyed at the program.
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2017-01-09T15:42:25Z XdilaudidX: But every time I ask someone what programming language they use at work, they say C or Java.  So I'm feeling left out!
2017-01-09T15:42:46Z Devon: XdilaudidX: Q&D usually means posix for me, awful impedance mismatch with Lisp and CFFI still baffles me.
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2017-01-09T15:44:09Z XdilaudidX: I do law, but one of my hall mates at school is a PhD in CS.  I asked him what language he used.
2017-01-09T15:44:30Z XdilaudidX: "Haskell of course!"
2017-01-09T15:44:56Z Devon: XdilaudidX: That Lambda Lisp Machine emulator I'm hacking is in C, it has a reasonable role as portable assembler.
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2017-01-09T15:45:44Z XdilaudidX: I can't read C.  The syntax is mind boggling.
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2017-01-09T15:46:05Z beach: XdilaudidX: To get back to the topic of this channel, did you write your programs in Common Lisp and using CLIM (as opposed to Zetalisp and Dynamic Windows) as I recommended?
2017-01-09T15:46:53Z XdilaudidX: Yes, I used CL and you'll be pleased to know you have an IRC client too!
2017-01-09T15:46:57Z Devon: When you want to make sure your inner loop fits in the CPU cache, C is about all you'll find.  Ah, C is nothing but PDP-11 assembler with special characters instead of acronyms for opcodes.
2017-01-09T15:47:14Z beach: XdilaudidX: Oh, you should have asked first.  We already have one: beirc.
2017-01-09T15:47:41Z XdilaudidX: Shame.
2017-01-09T15:48:07Z XdilaudidX: We need a github for lisp machine programmes
2017-01-09T15:48:33Z beach: What is wrong with the existing GitHub?
2017-01-09T15:48:43Z XdilaudidX: True!
2017-01-09T15:49:12Z XdilaudidX: Well we need a git clone program for lisp machines
2017-01-09T15:49:39Z Devon: QuickLisp?
2017-01-09T15:50:29Z XdilaudidX: Its a pain to keep tabbing between Genera and Linux
2017-01-09T15:50:30Z beach: XdilaudidX:  Is the source code of the programs you wrote available?
2017-01-09T15:51:08Z XdilaudidX: Not yet, I'm traveling and don't have my Lisp Machine available
2017-01-09T15:51:21Z Devon: XdilaudidX: Do you have the Genera C compiler or Zeta-C?
2017-01-09T15:52:09Z Devon: My LispM travels with me in my MacBookAir.
2017-01-09T15:53:22Z XdilaudidX: Haven't tried writing C in Genera so don't know.  I've been using Genera for writing my books (someone write Vile in common lisp!!!), a bit of coding in lisp naturally
2017-01-09T15:54:05Z XdilaudidX: I've been trying to live in the lisp machine so to speak, and to speak lisp wherever possible.
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2017-01-09T15:54:34Z XdilaudidX: Lisp makes me want to listen to Elvis.  No idea why.
2017-01-09T15:54:55Z Younder: finally got my book "lattices and order" ordered it on november 20'th. Amazon be slow.
2017-01-09T15:55:15Z XdilaudidX: Devon: What do you use for a lisp machine?
2017-01-09T15:56:45Z Younder: Devon is being silly. Sure Lisp tags are a pain. In that they limit integer size.
2017-01-09T15:57:19Z XdilaudidX: I didn't think there was much aside from Genera and Emacs
2017-01-09T15:57:52Z Younder: But if it is critical, ad it rearly is, you can optimize that away.
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2017-01-09T15:58:05Z XdilaudidX: Oh and Mezzano.  Genera will run on Mac, so will Emacs
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2017-01-09T15:59:07Z Younder: Never the less using a non native register size is bound to be inefficient. (Am I missing something?)
2017-01-09T15:59:14Z Devon: RG intends to upgrade his design to 64 bits.  There's enough room in IEEE floating point NaN space for a complete tagged world - and we get fast floating point in stock hardware.
2017-01-09T15:59:26Z XdilaudidX: No clue about Mezzano, but I guess I could kick up Virtualpc and see
2017-01-09T16:00:51Z JuanDaugherty: november 20? sounds lost.
2017-01-09T16:01:31Z JuanDaugherty: i'd start a reconciliation/chargeback
2017-01-09T16:02:02Z Younder: JuanDaugherty, No I got it today. It actually arrived in December 27'th but I was on vacation then.
2017-01-09T16:02:08Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2017-01-09T16:02:17Z Devon: Amazon is a front end for many tiny publishers who may not even have full time staff.
2017-01-09T16:02:27Z JuanDaugherty: yes i know
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2017-01-09T16:02:41Z JuanDaugherty: but they enforce standards
2017-01-09T16:02:56Z JuanDaugherty: at least as far as the biz and transactioning are concerned
2017-01-09T16:05:16Z Devon: XdilaudidX: Git being mostly C, try compiling it on Genera.
2017-01-09T16:06:24Z Younder: Amazon has killed many bookstores. But to me it offers the biggest collection of books ever. Kinda seductive for a math major. Your average bookstore doesn't offer much for us.
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2017-01-09T16:08:48Z XdilaudidX: Urgh, I have terrible luck compiling stuff.
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2017-01-09T16:10:52Z Younder: Well I use Ubuntu and I can 'coerce' most stuff to compile here.
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2017-01-09T16:13:26Z Devon: XdilaudidX: When I'm done with class I'll compile Git on System 130, if it works you'll have no trouble on Genera.
2017-01-09T16:13:51Z flip214: Younder: apart from that, you're already starting with quite a list of software, and could even add debian repositories if the need arises...
2017-01-09T16:14:32Z XdilaudidX: Hmm, does someone have a hardware LispM?
2017-01-09T16:14:43Z Devon: Does QuickLisp compile on Genera?
2017-01-09T16:14:52Z Younder: flip214, Yes. I am quite fond of Ubuntu. Been using it since 2006.
2017-01-09T16:15:01Z Devon: lol, yes I do, TI Exploders.
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2017-01-09T16:15:17Z XdilaudidX: Although Sys 130 sounds more like an ibm mainframe
2017-01-09T16:15:31Z XdilaudidX: They always had system and a number
2017-01-09T16:15:54Z Devon: LispM System 99 was the last system RMS released before starting GNU so 130 should be 30% better.
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2017-01-09T16:17:02Z Younder: Still going on about Lisp machines. They died in the 1990's when ordinary PC's provided enough memory.
2017-01-09T16:17:03Z Xach: Devon: I don't think so. Last time I checked (a few years ago) there were basic ANSI issues to work out.
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2017-01-09T16:19:04Z Younder: For the record common lisp requires about 32 Mb to my memory.
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2017-01-09T16:20:57Z Devon: Xach: Does QL have a switch to disable all cacheing?
2017-01-09T16:21:21Z Xach: Devon: No.
2017-01-09T16:21:40Z Xach: Quicklisp does little caching on its own, but that caching doesn't have an off switch.
2017-01-09T16:22:03Z XdilaudidX: Is it an LMI lispm or a
2017-01-09T16:22:10Z Younder: Is there any reason it should?
2017-01-09T16:22:22Z dlowe: I wonder, theoretically, how hard it would be to make the genera compilers emit x86_64
2017-01-09T16:22:25Z XdilaudidX: An MIT lispm?
2017-01-09T16:23:21Z XdilaudidX: dlowe: No reason why it shouldn't be practically
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2017-01-09T16:23:48Z dlowe: in that case, you might be able to bootstrap into modernity that way
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2017-01-09T16:24:54Z XdilaudidX: The putative rights holder is neither acting to enforce his rights nor seems to actually HAVE rights.
2017-01-09T16:25:15Z Younder: I seem to remember Genera betting on MAC taking over, but that never really happened.
2017-01-09T16:25:30Z beach: XdilaudidX: So when can we expect to see the source code of the programs you wrote?
2017-01-09T16:26:00Z XdilaudidX: When I return from vacation.  Say a week or two.
2017-01-09T16:26:11Z beach: OK.
2017-01-09T16:27:15Z XdilaudidX: I wouldn't mind having genera on x64 but there would need to be a lot of application level code written to make it usable.
2017-01-09T16:27:54Z Devon: LMITI = LMI/MIT/TI Lisp Machine System - all the same.
2017-01-09T16:27:56Z XdilaudidX: I'm definitely a genera convert.  More natural than the unixes for some reason
2017-01-09T16:28:28Z XdilaudidX: For a single user operating system
2017-01-09T16:29:14Z Devon: The lack of any fence between OS and user code is a blessing and a curse.
2017-01-09T16:30:38Z Younder: XdilaudidX, whatever. Never used it myself, so who am I to juge. Seems a bit old faction though.
2017-01-09T16:30:39Z XdilaudidX: I can see what you mean
2017-01-09T16:30:58Z dlowe: if it ever became popular, the Internet wildlife would consume your computer alive.
2017-01-09T16:31:10Z Younder: lol
2017-01-09T16:31:56Z White_Flame: yep, beach and I had a long conversation here a while ago about how one might protect lisp code from other lisp code in the same image
2017-01-09T16:32:09Z XdilaudidX: Younder, it's like an old Thunderchicken.  Needs wax and an overhaul, but the car is fine
2017-01-09T16:32:44Z XdilaudidX: Or rather, the CDR is fine
2017-01-09T16:33:48Z Younder: My FIRST CAR was a CDR, but it was the same as all the REST. (/me recomplates)
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2017-01-09T16:34:13Z Devon: The LispM designers discussed barriers between subsystems but I'm not aware of any concrete proposals.
2017-01-09T16:35:00Z White_Flame: most ideas that were passed around here was to have private packages & symbols, which couldn't be name-collided
2017-01-09T16:35:08Z XdilaudidX: Devon: you joked that C was basically PDP 11 assembly, but that made me think: can TECO be ported to C?
2017-01-09T16:35:10Z Devon: lol... looking up the PDP-10 CAR & CDR instruction mnemonics.
2017-01-09T16:35:44Z Devon: Only in that the KLH-10 emulator is written in C.
2017-01-09T16:36:02Z XdilaudidX: I love TECO as an editor.  I use a visual variant of it as my daily editor
2017-01-09T16:36:38Z XdilaudidX: Hate emacs because it doesn't come with sensible keybindings
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2017-01-09T16:37:08Z aap: XdilaudidX: which version of TECO is that?
2017-01-09T16:37:09Z White_Flame: XdilaudidX: while I agree, that's only because "sensible" has changed over the years
2017-01-09T16:37:12Z Devon: Hmm, I should fire up ITS and see if it has a TCP QFILE server.
2017-01-09T16:37:35Z Younder: XdilaudidX, Do you like vim?
2017-01-09T16:37:37Z XdilaudidX: Yes, I know emacs came from teco but teco has vi like keybindings
2017-01-09T16:37:54Z XdilaudidX: Yeah Vim is my second favourite editor.
2017-01-09T16:37:54Z Devon: I'd say vi has teco like keybindings.
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2017-01-09T16:38:48Z XdilaudidX: Aap, it's called SciTeco
2017-01-09T16:39:24Z Younder: Wow, stange to find programmers from the 70's these days.
2017-01-09T16:39:35Z Younder: strange
2017-01-09T16:39:50Z aap: nice, i should finally learn teco
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2017-01-09T16:40:05Z XdilaudidX: I'm not, I was born in 1992 but vi and teco are easy on the hands
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2017-01-09T16:40:06Z aap: i can hardly use any pdp-10 software...
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2017-01-09T16:40:20Z aap: at least i know the hardware fairly well :)
2017-01-09T16:40:29Z Younder: ed, ed is the standard Unix editor ;)
2017-01-09T16:40:33Z XdilaudidX: For a non programmer, emacs isn't the best option.
2017-01-09T16:40:53Z aap: Younder: but what if you're using ITS or TOPS-10? ;)
2017-01-09T16:40:55Z XdilaudidX: We're talking VISUAL editors here
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2017-01-09T16:42:01Z sjl: is there a version of ELT in alexandria or serapeum or whatever that allows negative indices?
2017-01-09T16:42:12Z XdilaudidX: There's a fairly nice but outdated manual for SciTeco.  As I said, I use it as my daily editor when I can.
2017-01-09T16:42:45Z sjl: e.g. (elt% "bar" -1) -> #\r
2017-01-09T16:43:10Z XdilaudidX: And I'll explain why: we all know that Vim has nicer undo than Emacs.  Well, SciTeco has even nicer undo than Vim
2017-01-09T16:43:55Z beach: Could we stick to the topic, please?
2017-01-09T16:43:57Z XdilaudidX: In that your commands are greyed out in the bottom, so in case you need to redo, you can see what you typed
2017-01-09T16:44:32Z XdilaudidX: Don't you need a text editor to write lisp?
2017-01-09T16:45:27Z sjl: XdilaudidX: no https://twitter.com/stevelosh/status/310487495198523393/photo/1
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2017-01-09T16:46:03Z White_Flame: also, structure editors
2017-01-09T16:46:20Z XdilaudidX: That's true, but in a sense, pen and paper is an "editor"!
2017-01-09T16:46:39Z White_Flame: it's not a text editor, though
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2017-01-09T16:46:46Z White_Flame: ie, it's not limited to text characters
2017-01-09T16:46:57Z sjl: closest thing to my desired elt function I can find is slice in serapeum: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/blob/master/sequences.lisp#L613-L635
2017-01-09T16:47:18Z sjl: but that gives a whole subseq when I just need a single element
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2017-01-09T16:49:16Z beach: sjl: Surely, it is trivial to write.
2017-01-09T16:49:44Z sjl: beach: sure, I wrote it https://github.com/sjl/sand/blob/master/src/story.lisp#L32-L38
2017-01-09T16:49:48Z sjl: was just hoping to delete some code
2017-01-09T16:49:49Z XdilaudidX: iBoston, Masachussets$-fMas$is$fsse$-2cdftit$0tt
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2017-01-09T16:50:07Z Younder: I take it you guys want elt to work like python with negative indices's representing values from the lastmost. But elt would be very inefficient for lists.
2017-01-09T16:50:15Z XdilaudidX: Soe
2017-01-09T16:50:36Z Younder: It's fine for arrays
2017-01-09T16:50:38Z sjl: Younder: yeah, I'm fine with it only working on arrays for my use case
2017-01-09T16:50:52Z XdilaudidX: Sorry teco is a very useful program in my life and I like to evangelise.
2017-01-09T16:53:18Z Younder: So shouldn't you modify aref then?
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2017-01-09T16:57:25Z loke: XdilaudidX: I have recently played around with videoteco and it
2017-01-09T16:57:30Z loke: 's indeed quite nice.
2017-01-09T16:57:38Z loke: Better than vi in some repsects.
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2017-01-09T16:57:58Z sjl: Younder: sure, I could
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2017-01-09T16:58:10Z sjl: I mean ELT is always inefficient on lists for large N though
2017-01-09T16:58:20Z sjl: janky version of elt that only traverses it once: http://paste.stevelosh.com/5873c104d1d87b0008a9cb19
2017-01-09T16:58:48Z sjl: plusp there should be (not (minusp ...))
2017-01-09T16:58:50Z sjl: but yeah
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2017-01-09T17:05:00Z sjl: or I could do it a lot less stupidly with iterate I guess http://paste.stevelosh.com/5873c2add1d87b0008a9cb1a
2017-01-09T17:05:41Z sjl: though that does an extra N lookups
2017-01-09T17:06:10Z sjl goes back to doing actual work
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2017-01-09T17:12:36Z Younder: I like Iterate.
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2017-01-09T17:20:15Z Devon: sjl: That elt-list fails to err on -bignum and loops forever on circular lists.  Both easily remedied.
2017-01-09T17:20:38Z _death: it's better to use paste.lisp.org to paste stuff, because then people here can annotate
2017-01-09T17:21:41Z Devon: M-x paste.lisp.org
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2017-01-09T17:41:30Z XdilaudidX: @ loke sorry didn't  see your comment
2017-01-09T17:41:55Z loke: XdilaudidX: This is IRC. No one expects that their comments be seen. :-)
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2017-01-09T17:42:20Z XdilaudidX: Try SciTeco.  It's video teco mark 2
2017-01-09T17:42:53Z XdilaudidX: Video teco was written by my helicopter instructor by the way, Paul Cantrell
2017-01-09T17:43:41Z XdilaudidX: We bonded over our mutual love of Teco and the Bell 47
2017-01-09T17:44:23Z XdilaudidX: sciteco.sourceforge.org
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2017-01-09T17:45:48Z XdilaudidX: @loke It runs on macos, Windows, and all flavours of Unix.  Need a version for LispM because Zmacs sucks
2017-01-09T17:46:21Z XdilaudidX: Or at least Vile or Tile
2017-01-09T17:46:57Z loke: XdilaudidX: The main reason I don't actually use TECO is because it doesn't support Unicode.
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2017-01-09T17:47:38Z XdilaudidX: Yep, its primary failing.  I don't need Unicode so I use it all the time
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2017-01-09T17:47:56Z XdilaudidX: Both my books were written in Latex and teco
2017-01-09T17:49:31Z XdilaudidX: If I'm on android I use vim but otherwise I'm a teco loyalist
2017-01-09T17:50:33Z aap: what books are those?
2017-01-09T17:50:40Z XdilaudidX: @loke have you ever used it for editing offline as intended by is creators?
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2017-01-09T17:51:07Z XdilaudidX: I wrote a guide to study, and one on Latex
2017-01-09T17:51:11Z loke: XdilaudidX: Used what for offline? Writing scripts to modify data? No.
2017-01-09T17:52:12Z XdilaudidX: @loke basically.  That's one part of Teco I never got right.  Writing a correction file, munging it to find my draft mangled
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2017-01-09T17:52:33Z loke: XdilaudidX: There is very little reason to do that these days.
2017-01-09T17:53:09Z XdilaudidX: Faster!
2017-01-09T17:53:29Z XdilaudidX: @loke but not for mortals.
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2017-01-09T17:54:24Z XdilaudidX: @loke you can't do it in vi though, so vi < teco confirmed
2017-01-09T17:55:50Z XdilaudidX: My first teco experience was when I needed to capitalise every first letter of every line
2017-01-09T17:56:39Z XdilaudidX: Writing a lisp program for that is possible.  But longer than the text to be edited.
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2017-01-09T17:59:45Z loke: XdilaudidX: I'd still need it to support Unicode before I'd use for for any real editing. That'll never happen though.
2017-01-09T18:00:59Z XdilaudidX: Loke: Robin Haberkorn's working on it.  He's German, so he needs Unicode more than I do
2017-01-09T18:01:28Z loke: That's interesting. I didn't reaslise anyone did any development on it anymore.
2017-01-09T18:01:50Z m00natic` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-01-09T18:01:52Z loke: Where can I follow any new on this?
2017-01-09T18:01:57Z Devon: XdilaudidX: KMP (CLHS editor) used MIT TECO to parse s-expressions.
2017-01-09T18:02:08Z XdilaudidX: Loke: Google SciTeco
2017-01-09T18:02:58Z XdilaudidX: He was surprised I was using "his little editor" for Serious Work
2017-01-09T18:05:09Z XdilaudidX: Loke: SciTeco is Video Teco 2.0, then there's TecoC being worked on by Tom Almy and Blake McBride
2017-01-09T18:05:31Z loke: I know blake from the GNU APL mailing list.
2017-01-09T18:05:44Z loke: I contribued Emacs supprot as SQL support for it.
2017-01-09T18:06:41Z XdilaudidX: Well you can thank him for Teco as well.  Both are great editors.
2017-01-09T18:07:27Z loke: Anyway, time to leave the office.
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2017-01-09T18:08:26Z XdilaudidX: @devon that's some nice integration!
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2017-01-09T18:09:24Z XdilaudidX: Interesting that this channel even exists.  It's like dancing to rockabilly when there's Top 40
2017-01-09T18:09:59Z XdilaudidX: But I like rockabilly.  Besides, Common Lisp rocks.
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2017-01-09T18:10:42Z White_Flame: lisp is old.  irc is old.  Not that suprising if you think about it ;)
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2017-01-09T18:11:45Z XdilaudidX: I wrote some simple programmes for text manipulation in Lisp.
2017-01-09T18:12:29Z XdilaudidX: Half my comp sci friends laughed at me, half stared bug eyed at the source code
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2017-01-09T18:13:30Z XdilaudidX: They're mostly C and Java guys.  I still don't consider myself a real programmer, because I write 80 percent in Lisp
2017-01-09T18:14:55Z Devon: Real Programmers use duct tape.
2017-01-09T18:15:39Z XdilaudidX: That and Fortran 66, which I will use but only if you force me to.
2017-01-09T18:16:23Z Devon: C maps directly to elegant PDP-11 hardware.
2017-01-09T18:16:37Z XdilaudidX: Shockingly, the Fortran class at my university isn't even offered by the computer department
2017-01-09T18:16:59Z XdilaudidX: It's apparently taught by chemistry faculty.
2017-01-09T18:17:41Z Devon: MIT didn't either, they were going to lose accreditation, the faculty said ok, we'll see whose reputation suffers.
2017-01-09T18:18:40Z XdilaudidX: It's not that, I mean, Fortran and chemistry?  Isn't there a type mismatch in there somewhere?
2017-01-09T18:19:39Z malice`: I believe you don't need fortran class at university.
2017-01-09T18:19:49Z malice`: You need to teach your students computer science, not fortran.
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2017-01-09T18:21:57Z XdilaudidX: Well, you need A computer language of some sort.
2017-01-09T18:22:30Z XdilaudidX: Tried the normal kind and somehow they don't play well with me.
2017-01-09T18:23:02Z XdilaudidX: I tried Pascal, Visual Basic, C, the works.
2017-01-09T18:23:36Z Bike: fortran is fairly common in chemistry. it's a pragmatic choice of class for em
2017-01-09T18:24:00Z XdilaudidX: The only programming languages I understand are the weirdie ones like Lisp and oddly enough Haskell
2017-01-09T18:24:33Z aap: what about asm? :)
2017-01-09T18:24:38Z XdilaudidX: But I can't twist text as easily in Haskell as I can in Lisp
2017-01-09T18:25:06Z XdilaudidX: No.  Urgh.  No assembler.  Not willing to try.
2017-01-09T18:25:30Z Younder: Perl excels in twisting text.
2017-01-09T18:26:06Z XdilaudidX: I don't get the basic concept of Perl.  Its metaphor eludes me.
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2017-01-09T18:26:24Z malice`: Does fortran have any features that make it better than C or like?
2017-01-09T18:26:27Z XdilaudidX: Someone told me I think functionally.  That might be true.
2017-01-09T18:26:43Z Younder: If you know shell script sed and awk then perl sort of makes sense.
2017-01-09T18:27:01Z Bike: malice`: pointer aliasing stuff means it's easier to make faster if you know what you're doing
2017-01-09T18:27:12Z XdilaudidX: No, it's just what I learned under duress because my high school teacher wasn't a Lisper
2017-01-09T18:27:31Z Bike: probably other minor crap
2017-01-09T18:27:44Z malice`: I'm asking for abstractions stuff. The only Fortran code I know is number-crunching things, because Fortran can make these fast.
2017-01-09T18:27:46Z XdilaudidX: He said Fortran might help me think differently.  It didn't.
2017-01-09T18:27:55Z malice`: But that doesn't look like a reason to learn it.
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2017-01-09T18:28:00Z Bike: fortran is not very abstract
2017-01-09T18:28:20Z malice`: Lisp teaches nice things. Haskell is also nice. Erlang, prolog. These languages can show you different ways of looking at problems
2017-01-09T18:28:40Z XdilaudidX: He had us write AI code for a backgammon game.
2017-01-09T18:28:44Z malice`: But you also get to teach students the mainstream, so C++ or Python would be preferable. I'd prefer C++, and then maybe Ruby.
2017-01-09T18:28:47Z Younder: All good languages
2017-01-09T18:29:08Z XdilaudidX: I could do it... in Lisp.
2017-01-09T18:29:19Z malice`: But I guess that fortran class would make no sense.
2017-01-09T18:29:28Z Younder: I might add Mathematica
2017-01-09T18:29:46Z malice`: It's commercial, but I'm constantly impressed by its features
2017-01-09T18:29:52Z XdilaudidX: Not a mathy guy.  I write application code.
2017-01-09T18:29:57Z Bike: it makes insofar as you want people who do not care about computer science to learn a programming language. same as an engineering program teaching matlab.
2017-01-09T18:30:00Z malice`: Like in each code golf I see it seems that Mathematica has a function to solve it :D
2017-01-09T18:30:42Z malice`: Anyway, I think that universities should start teaching students with SICP, and not C/C++/Java/Python.
2017-01-09T18:31:12Z XdilaudidX: British universities teach Haskell in compsci class
2017-01-09T18:31:25Z XdilaudidX: There is also the option of Python
2017-01-09T18:31:39Z malice`: Haskell is nice
2017-01-09T18:31:48Z malice`: I don't really like Python, but well
2017-01-09T18:31:55Z XdilaudidX: I like Haskell and Lisp
2017-01-09T18:32:07Z Younder: Haskell confuses me but I am trying to learn
2017-01-09T18:32:08Z XdilaudidX: Well there, you've made your choice.
2017-01-09T18:32:55Z XdilaudidX: Fortran 66
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2017-01-09T18:33:17Z Younder: lol, how about Fortran 2006?
2017-01-09T18:33:47Z XdilaudidX: Not object oriented programming!  I hate Oop!
2017-01-09T18:34:03Z XdilaudidX: Yeah, I'll stick with Lisp
2017-01-09T18:34:04Z Younder: Like in Lisp there has been a HUGE development in Fortran.
2017-01-09T18:35:13Z XdilaudidX: Is lisp okay for a first language?
2017-01-09T18:35:19Z Younder: It's not really the same language.
2017-01-09T18:36:05Z Younder: XdilaudidX, I think it is. It is much harder to larn if you know C. (I speak from personal experience)
2017-01-09T18:36:16Z XdilaudidX: Like I think the reason I like Common Lisp is because I learned a bit of it when I was 16
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2017-01-09T18:37:06Z XdilaudidX: And then when I had to write in some other language, I kept thinking how much easier the job would be with lisp.
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2017-01-09T18:37:58Z malice`: Lisp is fine as the first language.
2017-01-09T18:38:17Z svetlyak40wt: Do somebody know, why some lisp systems from different maintainers have "trivial-" prefix?
2017-01-09T18:40:14Z Xach: svetlyak40wt: it was a trend for a while. it approximately means something that doesn't do much but which is useful.
2017-01-09T18:41:09Z svetlyak40wt: Does it makes sense to name a new library with limited functionality the same way?
2017-01-09T18:41:52Z Younder is listening to Ward Cunningham's live conference
2017-01-09T18:42:45Z Xach: svetlyak40wt: I am not personally a fan of the style.
2017-01-09T18:42:53Z Xach: svetlyak40wt: I think you should give it whatever name you wish.
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2017-01-09T18:43:12Z svetlyak40wt: Thank you for the advice!
2017-01-09T18:52:07Z Younder: Is heapsort more efficient that quicksort in Lisp?
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2017-01-09T18:53:34Z Younder: That problem was ill defined. Let's say we have 10000 elements, and it is in memory.
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2017-01-09T18:55:51Z Xach: Younder: If it was, what would you do with that info?
2017-01-09T18:56:32Z Younder: I belive it is difficult to make quicksort efficient in Lisp. Easier in C.
2017-01-09T18:56:43Z Younder: Xach, I don't know yet.
2017-01-09T18:56:56Z Xach: Younder: Why is it more difficult?
2017-01-09T18:57:58Z Younder: Well in C the array is on the stack. In lisp on the heap. There is more overhead in CL.
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2017-01-09T18:58:18Z Younder: Not sure about this it is just a feeling.
2017-01-09T18:58:38Z Bike: arrays can be stack allocated in lisp, and also how does being on the stack versus in the heap affect a sorting algorithm
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2017-01-09T18:59:21Z Younder: I should just code and see. I am probably being silly.
2017-01-09T19:02:16Z lisp048: Hey any way for that nil to not be printed?
2017-01-09T19:02:16Z lisp048: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336168
2017-01-09T19:02:21Z lisp048: excuse the formatting :D
2017-01-09T19:02:34Z Younder: return (values)
2017-01-09T19:02:54Z lisp048: I've not used return values in lisp
2017-01-09T19:03:00Z lisp048: I thought cond took care of that
2017-01-09T19:03:03Z Xach: lisp048: I like to help, but I can't follow the formatting of the code in this example, sorry.
2017-01-09T19:03:20Z Xach: lisp048: It might also be helpful to have a comment or docstring explaining what extract is meant to do.
2017-01-09T19:03:21Z lisp048: :(
2017-01-09T19:03:36Z lisp048: Sorry I don't know how to format lisp code but I will add comments
2017-01-09T19:03:58Z Xach: I know what a tree usually is, but start and finish could use some exposition.
2017-01-09T19:04:19Z Bike: if by "that nil" you mean the return value of the function, it's only printed by the repl. it won't show up if you call extract from elsewhere or anything
2017-01-09T19:07:24Z lisp048: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336168#1
2017-01-09T19:07:50Z lisp048: ((NIL ((7))) (8 (9 (10 ((11))) 12)) (13))
2017-01-09T19:07:51Z lisp048: I get this
2017-01-09T19:08:06Z lisp048: I'd rather I didn't have
2017-01-09T19:08:09Z lisp048: that nil at the
2017-01-09T19:08:12Z lisp048: start
2017-01-09T19:08:16Z Bike: oh, that's different.
2017-01-09T19:09:06Z pjb: lisp048: error Count is undefined.
2017-01-09T19:09:25Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2017-01-09T19:09:29Z lisp048: I added a comment below saying to set count for yourself
2017-01-09T19:09:32Z lisp048: I use (setf count 1)
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2017-01-09T19:09:42Z pjb: This doesn't define anything.
2017-01-09T19:09:58Z lisp048: it certainly is working on my compiler
2017-01-09T19:09:59Z pjb: Use let, let*, defvar or defparameter to define a variable.
2017-01-09T19:10:16Z lisp048: let as far as I know is not a global value
2017-01-09T19:10:17Z pjb: lisp048: but since it's not specified, you don't know what it really does.
2017-01-09T19:10:22Z lisp048: so only works locally
2017-01-09T19:10:23Z pjb: exact.
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2017-01-09T19:10:50Z pjb: (setf Count (+ Count 1) ) ;inc count   --> (incf count)
2017-01-09T19:11:13Z pjb: Why write silly code, then a comment with almost the right code?  Can't you just write the right code?
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2017-01-09T19:11:22Z lisp048: I know that, but it's how I wrote it
2017-01-09T19:11:38Z pjb:  (extract (cdr Tree) Start Finish ) ) ) ) ;rest of list -->     (extract (REST Tree) Start Finish ))))
2017-01-09T19:11:57Z lisp048: I mean fine, but these are more to do with the formatting of the code rather than the issue at hand
2017-01-09T19:12:08Z lisp048: I realize that I can write them like that and that it is better to write them that way
2017-01-09T19:12:09Z pjb: (and (>= Count Start) (<= Count Finish) ) ;if count is between start and finish   --> (<= start count finish) !!!
2017-01-09T19:12:27Z pjb: Stop writing lisp code, just write the comments, and then add parentheses!!!
2017-01-09T19:12:27Z lisp048: but I already wrote my code and so changing that won't change the problem...
2017-01-09T19:12:35Z pjb: Yes, it will.
2017-01-09T19:12:54Z pjb: The first big bug you have in your code, the main one, is Count vs. count.
2017-01-09T19:13:14Z pjb: Write consistent spelling and it will be much better.
2017-01-09T19:13:15Z lisp048: I thought common lisp didn't discern between lowercase and uppercase
2017-01-09T19:13:24Z lisp048: and instead transcribed everything to
2017-01-09T19:13:26Z lisp048: uppercase no?
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2017-01-09T19:13:43Z pjb: The default setting of the lisp reader doesn't distinguish them, but humans do, and lisp certainly does.
2017-01-09T19:13:51Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-01-09T19:13:55Z lisp048: so not a bug
2017-01-09T19:14:01Z pjb: (eq '|Count| '|count|)  #| --> nil |#  (eq '|Count| 'Count) #| --> nil |#
2017-01-09T19:14:28Z pjb: code is not written for the machines, it's written for the human programmers to read back!
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2017-01-09T19:16:16Z pjb: lisp048: what do you thing, is () an atom or not?
2017-01-09T19:16:37Z pjb: s/thing/think/
2017-01-09T19:16:39Z lisp048: it's not?
2017-01-09T19:16:49Z pjb: It is.
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2017-01-09T19:17:01Z Younder: () is nil
2017-01-09T19:17:11Z lisp048: right
2017-01-09T19:17:12Z Younder: nil is a atom
2017-01-09T19:18:11Z pjb: So when (car tree) is () = nil,   (not (atom (car Tree) ) ) is false.
2017-01-09T19:18:45Z lisp048: so listp would be a wiser choice?
2017-01-09T19:18:49Z pjb: Then if count is between, you return (cons (car Tree) #|cons atom with|# (extract (cdr Tree) Start Finish ) ) which will be a list starting with NIL.
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2017-01-09T19:18:59Z pjb: lisp048:  depends on what you mean really.
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2017-01-09T19:19:22Z Younder: listp is what you want
2017-01-09T19:19:42Z pjb: if you use listp, then it'll take conses and nil in that branch, and in (cons (extract (car Tree) Start Finish) …)   extract will return nil, so again , a list starting with NIL.
2017-01-09T19:20:31Z pjb: Now your function doesn't contain a single print expression.  So why do the comment say it prints something? It doesn't print anything!
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2017-01-09T19:27:44Z lisp048: well print as in outputs something
2017-01-09T19:28:09Z pjb: Neither outputs.  There's absolutely no I/O here.
2017-01-09T19:29:44Z pjb: lisp048: basically the question is how do you represent a tree containing symbols such as nil unit dual ?  There are not only integers such as 0 1 2 in life, but also symbols.  Because in lisp () = nil is both an empty list and a symbol, if you must be careful how you represent and distinguishes a node with no element (empty list) and a node with a nil element.
2017-01-09T19:33:32Z lisp048: so adding not (null (first tree) )
2017-01-09T19:33:34Z lisp048: should fix this?
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2017-01-09T19:39:05Z Younder: (null tree)
2017-01-09T19:39:56Z pjb: lisp048: finally, do you want to collect a "tree" or do you want a flat list of the atoms?
2017-01-09T19:40:07Z lisp048: tree
2017-01-09T19:40:43Z pjb: Well, what do you want to put in place of the branches not covered by the interval?
2017-01-09T19:41:11Z pjb: You don't really have trees there, but rather s-expressions…
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2017-01-09T19:43:04Z lisp048: the depth of the atoms should remain the same
2017-01-09T19:43:13Z lisp048: however only the atoms inside the interval should be represented
2017-01-09T19:43:42Z lisp048: so ( ( nil 2 ( 2 ( 4 ) ) )
2017-01-09T19:43:52Z lisp048: starting from 2 should be
2017-01-09T19:44:00Z lisp048: ( ( ( 2 ( 4 ) ) )
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2017-01-09T19:47:22Z pjb: lisp048: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336168#2
2017-01-09T19:47:32Z pjb: lisp048: your request is not consistent.
2017-01-09T19:47:46Z pjb: lisp048: draw the trees and you will see.
2017-01-09T19:48:27Z lisp048: left to right from 1
2017-01-09T19:48:43Z pjb: Instead of start finish,  we rather use start end in CL, with (and (<= start index) (< index end)).
2017-01-09T19:48:51Z pjb: No, never never ever from 1.
2017-01-09T19:49:18Z pjb: lisp048: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html
2017-01-09T19:49:32Z lisp048: I understand that, but the problem requires it
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2017-01-09T19:49:40Z pjb: Nonetheless.
2017-01-09T19:49:41Z lisp048: you can use count <= start-1 though
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2017-01-09T19:50:41Z pjb: You just call (extract (1- start+1) (1- end+1)) if you want to  store (1+ start) in start+1 and (1+ end) in end+1.
2017-01-09T19:51:59Z pjb: Now, in my solution, notice how everything is written only once.
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2017-01-09T19:52:12Z pjb: There is only one test for nil, which is the empty sexp.
2017-01-09T19:52:30Z pjb: Only one test for atom which is when you add 1 to the counter.
2017-01-09T19:52:45Z pjb: Only one test for the interval, which is when you collect the atom.
2017-01-09T19:53:08Z pjb: and foremost, only one place where we recurse on the cons cells.
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2017-01-09T19:53:39Z kodnin: Yesterday I was surprised by how fast `sbcl --script some-file.lisp` loaded compared to Ruby and Node. That got me thinking, how does Lisp compare in terms of speed to other popular and fast languages?
2017-01-09T19:53:49Z pjb: faster.
2017-01-09T19:54:24Z pjb: Last time I tested (more than ten years ago), clisp started scripts faster than bash or perl (I told you it was a long time ago).
2017-01-09T19:54:36Z Younder: pjb this is starting to sound like a lecture. You are not getting pompous on your old age are you :)
2017-01-09T19:55:22Z pjb: If you find lectures pompous, you've got a serious problem.
2017-01-09T19:55:23Z kodnin: There is the Computer Language Benchmark Game, but I was wondering if any of you had references to articles or benchmarks?
2017-01-09T19:55:50Z Younder: For the record pjb alias Pascal Bourmignon is one of the best Lisp programmers here.
2017-01-09T19:56:24Z kodnin: :-D
2017-01-09T19:56:48Z pjb: kodnin: well, program speed is a global feature.  Benchmarks only test benchmarks.
2017-01-09T19:56:58Z jmarciano: you sure that is the right last name of pjb...
2017-01-09T19:57:26Z pjb: Not the best, just one of the oldests, so I retain a few good nuggets.
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2017-01-09T19:57:41Z pjb: Bourguignon :-)
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2017-01-09T20:01:58Z kodnin: pjb: I know, but I'm mostly interested in what league Common Lisp (SBCL or CCL) is playing. Is it the C/C++/Java league or the Python/Ruby league? As far as there are leagues of course.
2017-01-09T20:03:02Z pjb: Definitely C C++
2017-01-09T20:03:08Z pjb: kodnin: http://cliki.net/Performance
2017-01-09T20:04:17Z kodnin: pjb: Thanks, that's what I was looking for.
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2017-01-09T20:04:43Z lisp048: Ok, well I am off
2017-01-09T20:04:53Z lisp048: thank you pjb and the others for your help :)
2017-01-09T20:04:54Z sukaeto: this thread has a pretty good summary of approximate relative language speeds: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?t=108685
2017-01-09T20:05:37Z sukaeto: as you can see, Lisp is ranked in "Tier 2 (fast)"
2017-01-09T20:05:40Z jmarciano: it means, when switching from Perl, I get few times faster...
2017-01-09T20:06:24Z pjb: If you put as many type declarations in your CL programs as you do in you C or C++ programs, then your CL programs will be as fast or faster than your C or C++ programs, with compilers such as sbcl.
2017-01-09T20:06:44Z pjb: To me, that qualifies as Tier 1.
2017-01-09T20:07:56Z sukaeto: IMHO, Lisp is "fast enough that I will never need to worry about it"
2017-01-09T20:08:14Z sukaeto: but I figure it's better to defer to more credible sources on such things ;-)
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2017-01-09T20:08:49Z kodnin: sukaeto: Awesome!
2017-01-09T20:09:04Z White_Flame: DISASSEMBLE is your friend when it comes to speed
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2017-01-09T20:09:48Z sukaeto: I am reminded of this essay: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
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2017-01-09T20:10:58Z jmarciano: access forbidden
2017-01-09T20:11:08Z kodnin: Oh, definitely... Common Lisp is more than fast enough. It's just a pleasant surprise to stumble upon that fact while getting to know Common Lisp.
2017-01-09T20:11:46Z sukaeto: jmarciano: odd . . . try the cached version? http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rkdFUuD1isAJ:www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=ubuntu
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2017-01-09T20:16:15Z jmarciano: got it... too high level for me
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2017-01-09T21:36:35Z jurov: When XdilaudidX returns, tell him about http://www.loper-os.org/?p=51
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2017-01-09T21:36:57Z jurov: Stan lives here on irc as "asciilifeform".
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2017-01-09T22:11:09Z mood: Is there something similar to (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) for CLISP?
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2017-01-09T22:31:55Z bexx: hi the
2017-01-09T22:32:03Z bexx: i have trouble with slime
2017-01-09T22:32:08Z bexx: anybody can help me?
2017-01-09T22:32:41Z borodust: shoot the question :)
2017-01-09T22:33:22Z bexx: i run a benchmark-init and slime is taking too long time
2017-01-09T22:33:39Z bexx: i want to load it only when i want
2017-01-09T22:33:42Z bexx: not automatically
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2017-01-09T22:36:39Z borodust: if u don't want to load slime module whatsoever, i guess u can comment out (require 'slime) in the config
2017-01-09T22:37:23Z bexx: and if i can run M-x slime?
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2017-01-09T22:37:53Z borodust: u need to to load module first
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2017-01-09T22:38:17Z bexx: oh i don't get that
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2017-01-09T23:43:34Z mood: I just found out CLISP's LOOP implementation is rather inconsistent. A variable bound using WITH, after a FOR (which, admittedly, is non-conformant) will often have the "expected" value in a FINALLY context, but sometimes it'll be NIL
2017-01-09T23:44:38Z akkad: wow
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2017-01-10T00:24:47Z jasom: kodnin: FYI if you ever find --script is too slow, you can save an image; thats quite a bit faster to load (about 7ms on my system).
2017-01-10T00:26:15Z kodnin: jasom: No, the opposite. I was impressed by its speed.
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2017-01-10T00:27:45Z jasom: kodnin: right; I just put the "ever" in as if you either have to load tons of libraries or want to call it repeatedly from a script, it can be even faster still :)
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2017-01-10T00:30:34Z aeth: kodnin: Be aware that the CL you write when you care about performance will be different than ordinary CL, sometimes considerably so.
2017-01-10T00:31:37Z kodnin: jasom: ah, cool!
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2017-01-10T00:32:13Z aeth: e.g. (make-array 4 :element-type 'single-float :initial-contents #(0f0 1f0 3f0 4f0)) instead of #(0 1 3 4) (at least if you know your numbers are going to be float anyway and you don't care about precision that much)
2017-01-10T00:32:18Z kodnin: aeth: you mean functional as opposed to OO?
2017-01-10T00:33:19Z aeth: If you want C-like performance, you can't always rely on the functional functions to work properly. You need to benchmark them, and probably need to add type declarations even if you don't change the optimization levels (I'm surprised that that makes a difference, but sometimes just the declarations alone are a 10x speedup)
2017-01-10T00:34:57Z kodnin: aeth: I never looked into type declarations. They're completely new to me in Lisps.
2017-01-10T00:35:04Z aeth: What I think is going on is that the sequence functions are *much* more efficient if the compiler knows what kind of sequence it is.
2017-01-10T00:36:38Z aeth: Since it can't assume immutability most of the time, that means you have to use upgraded arrays and type declarations if you want performance because it can't e.g. assume that (vector 0f0 1f0 3f0 4f0) will always just contain floats
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2017-01-10T00:37:26Z aeth: I'm assuming that a purely functional language with an immutable data structure there *could* make that optimization
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2017-01-10T00:38:10Z jasom: sbcl won't generate multiple entry points to user functions based upon the types it knows, so the ability to inline functions can remove a huge amount of type checking.
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2017-01-10T00:39:22Z jasom: well if you use "vector" tye type you get is well defined (vector t *) which is not what you want if it will always contain floats (array float (*))
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2017-01-10T00:40:01Z aeth: Oh, and upgraded arrays are just arrays with a type other than T, so e.g. (upgraded-array-element-type 'single-float) is usually SINGLE-FLOAT on Lisps (but on clisp it's T)
2017-01-10T00:40:38Z aeth: I didn't define a term before using it
2017-01-10T00:40:42Z jasom: Furthermore (let ((x (vector 0f0))) (declare (type (array float (*))) x) ...) is a type error on sbcl.
2017-01-10T00:41:21Z aeth: jasom: Right, but what I'm saying is that an immutable vector in a similar language *could* make that optimization, but CL is not that kind of Lisp
2017-01-10T00:41:49Z jasom: aeth: It's wrong to make in lisp even when the compiler can prove that the value is never mutated
2017-01-10T00:41:57Z kodnin: This is too advanced for me, but good to see we're all learning.
2017-01-10T00:42:32Z kodnin: Thanks for the warm welcome here, good to know I can ask beginner questions.
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2017-01-10T00:43:16Z jasom: kodnin: we try to keep it friendly, though many (myself included) are often a bit too pedantic.
2017-01-10T00:44:10Z jasom: kodnin: the nice thing is that sbcl  has instruction-level profiling so you never have to wonder *why* the code is slow
2017-01-10T00:49:23Z kodnin: jasom: good to know in case I might need it.
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2017-01-10T00:52:41Z aeth: I think the main thing to keep in mind if you want faster CL is to use make-array with an :element-type that upgrades on most implementations (although probably not CLISP, it doesn't even support 'single-float) and test the type with (upgraded-array-element-type 'foo) to make sure it's not T (i.e. holds everything)
2017-01-10T00:53:36Z aeth: Afaik, it's just going to be numbers, pretty much every number that's not a really large integer (how big will vary depending on e.g. 32 bit vs 64 bit)
2017-01-10T00:55:00Z aeth: People who say Lisp is slow probably don't even know that this can be done.
2017-01-10T00:57:16Z White_Flame: people who say Lisp is slow probably don't even know it's a compiled language :-P
2017-01-10T00:57:24Z aeth: Upgraded arrays and type declarations are the low-hanging fruit of optimizations, and probably the only optimizations you'll want to do if something needs to be faster because they'll matter the most by far.
2017-01-10T00:58:03Z aeth: White_Flame: right, they probably think Lisp is all about lists because quite a few introductions to Lisps focus on inefficiently working with lists for everything.
2017-01-10T00:58:14Z aeth: Usually they don't even know vectors exist in Lisp
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2017-01-10T01:05:17Z aeth: Afaik, CL could at least theoretically be made to be extremely fast for numerical code, and when it's not, it's probably due to the particular compiler not having enough optimizations rather than a language flaw.
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2017-01-10T01:15:38Z eschatologist: Symbolics even had a vector processor add-on for the 3600 series. One or several boards with Weitek FPUs and some libraries for representing matrices and moving data to/from vector processor memory.
2017-01-10T01:16:17Z eschatologist: And then the Framethrower for the XL series had similar functionality for 2D and 3D graphics. (It did live 1080p HD in 1990.)
2017-01-10T01:16:45Z eschatologist: (That was the era when Symbolics, not SGI, was the dominant vendor at SIGGRAPH.)
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2017-01-10T01:31:29Z rumbler31: i've read about skiplists recently, but I don't really see how to implement them in lisp
2017-01-10T01:32:31Z rumbler31: i understand that building a new list with new content, and making the cdr of your new list equal to some exisiting list will result in the lists sharing content, but other than that
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2017-01-10T01:42:01Z akkad: so is there any short hand to reference a clos object? say in cases where I want to normalize an object store and instead of sticking in the value n times, just a pointer to an object of said value?
2017-01-10T01:43:37Z Bike: like... put it in a variable? i don't understand.
2017-01-10T01:44:27Z akkad: like a foreign key referencing a value in another table.
2017-01-10T01:44:35Z akkad: rdbms/sql
2017-01-10T01:45:09Z akkad: in the case of an object store. trying to reduce redundant objects that are of the same value
2017-01-10T01:47:46Z jasom: akkad: you can test by eq to see if two objects are the same; if you want to efficiently remove duplicates you'll have to assign a unique id field to each object
2017-01-10T01:51:40Z akkad: as a slot? ok. thanks.
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2017-01-10T02:58:05Z lexicall: hi, is the Elephant database ready to use in current SBCL release?  I tried it on both SBCL and Clozure CL, both failed on OPERATION-ERROR when I executed "open-store" command.
2017-01-10T02:58:32Z lexicall: in their official website they said no, but quicklisp has it.
2017-01-10T02:58:45Z lexicall: so any chance, I wander.
2017-01-10T02:59:11Z lexicall: replace(wander, wonder)
2017-01-10T02:59:26Z akkad: lexicall: i gave up and used manardb. which works fine
2017-01-10T03:00:25Z lexicall: akkad: i would head for that, too. but i'm curious about the elephant's model of database.
2017-01-10T03:01:23Z lexicall: akkad: and thanks, if elephant's not gonna work, i will try manardb.
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2017-01-10T03:05:45Z akkad: oh right. nvm. misremembered elephant. was thinking rucksack
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2017-01-10T03:10:33Z akkad: so with (defclass foo () ((bar :initarg :bar :accessor bar))) would't (setf (bar foo-obj) :baz) be equivalent to (setf (slot-value foo-obj 'bar) :baz)?
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2017-01-10T03:12:53Z Bike: if there aren't other methods defined, yeah.
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2017-01-10T04:15:57Z ahungry:  hi all, I am using the SBCL contrib sb-cover in a package.  Everything works fine if I either quickload my package/system in a fresh SBCL instance, or if I load an instance and explicitly (require 'sb-cover) before saving the core.  I'm not attempting to get it working in a pre-saved core that didn't explicitly (require 'sb-cover) and it fails to quickload my package with "The name "SB-COVER" does not designate any package.".  Any
2017-01-10T04:15:57Z ahungry:  advice on the best way to have a defsystem explicitly require an sbcl contrib?
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2017-01-10T04:22:55Z Bike: i think you can just put :sb-cover in the dependencies and asdf will figure out that it's an sbcl contrib.
2017-01-10T04:25:01Z akkad: a slot of :allocation :class set to a value on one instances of a class, should it not also exist on a newly created object of that same class?
2017-01-10T04:25:04Z Bike: durr, i've done it myself. yeah just put it in as a dependency.
2017-01-10T04:25:24Z Bike: like #+sbcl #:sb-cover
2017-01-10T04:25:33Z Bike: or no conditional if it's sbcl specific anyway, i guess.
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2017-01-10T04:26:30Z Bike: akkad: think so.
2017-01-10T04:28:16Z ahungry: Thanks Bike, I'll give it a shot.  I couldn't get it to work well the other day, but maybe it was an unrelated problem.
2017-01-10T04:31:43Z ahungry: Ah yes, that was it, if I try that, I receive SB-INT:EXTENSION-FAILURE "Don't know how to REQUIRE sb-rotate-byte." (if I attempt to add :sb-cover to my asdf file)
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2017-01-10T04:32:04Z ahungry: I attempted to add :sb-rotate-byte as well, but that doesnt do anything
2017-01-10T04:32:18Z ahungry: I think sb-cover must attempt to (require 'sb-rotate-byte) or something
2017-01-10T04:33:09Z Bike: according to the asd it depends on sb-md5, which depends on sb-rotate-byte. do you not have that contrib?
2017-01-10T04:33:16Z ahungry: Setting up my core like this works fine: https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-fleece/blob/master/Makefile.in#L9 , but that isn't good for setting this up as a roswell installable package
2017-01-10T04:34:45Z ahungry: I believe I have it, as loading via direct require is fine (when done directly). Maybe my quicklisp / asdf system is not looking in the right place for sbcl contribs
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2017-01-10T04:39:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-10T04:40:53Z ahungry: hi beach, good morning; thanks for reviewing my code the other night (I had went away shortly after linking it)
2017-01-10T04:41:11Z beach: Sure.
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2017-01-10T05:11:58Z dave___: hi
2017-01-10T05:12:13Z beach: Hello dave___.
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2017-01-10T08:28:58Z jdz: ahungry: I think the correct way is to put (:require "sb-ccover") in the :depends-on list.
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2017-01-10T08:29:52Z jdz: (sans the typos)
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2017-01-10T09:52:08Z loke: Good morning Lisp!
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2017-01-10T09:53:56Z beach: Hello loke.
2017-01-10T09:54:05Z loke: Hello beach from Paris :-)
2017-01-10T09:54:11Z beach: Yes, I remember.
2017-01-10T09:54:37Z loke: It's bloody cold here.
2017-01-10T09:54:47Z beach: It usually is.
2017-01-10T09:55:31Z loke: I
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2017-01-10T09:55:43Z loke: I've been here is summer, it's nicer then :-)
2017-01-10T09:55:59Z loke: At least it isn't raining now, as opposed to yesterday.
2017-01-10T09:56:01Z beach: Right.
2017-01-10T09:56:52Z beach: pjb: "Bourmignon".  That's cute (so to speak). :)
2017-01-10T09:57:48Z loke tries to actually spell pjb's name and fails spectactularly.
2017-01-10T09:58:07Z loke: Bourignon?
2017-01-10T09:58:17Z beach: Nope.
2017-01-10T09:58:28Z beach: Bourguignon.
2017-01-10T09:59:17Z loke: Wow.
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2017-01-10T10:00:36Z loke seriously cracked the screen on my Nexus phone. I googled for phone repar places in Paris and there are quite a few. How can I tell which ones to ask?
2017-01-10T10:00:52Z loke: beach: Any reputable site where I can check reviews of such things?
2017-01-10T10:01:03Z beach: I am not the right person to ask.
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2017-01-10T10:01:20Z z0d: probably not the right channel either :->
2017-01-10T10:01:54Z loke: z0d: I was hoping Beach would be the right person to ask :-)
2017-01-10T10:02:50Z beach: Don't you have colleagues in the office?  They probably know.
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2017-01-10T10:04:36Z loke: beach: I do, and I will, I guess :-)
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2017-01-10T12:51:35Z KZiemian: Hello World!
2017-01-10T12:51:52Z KZiemian: Does anyone use IRC client in Emacs?
2017-01-10T12:52:10Z KZiemian: If so, can you recomended one to me?
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2017-01-10T12:54:00Z Cymew: rcirc works fine for me. But I think you'd get better responses in #emacs.
2017-01-10T12:54:02Z Xach: KZiemian: that is not topical for #lisp - try #emacs.
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2017-01-10T12:57:34Z KZiemian: Xach: Thank you, I don't know that is such channel
2017-01-10T12:57:52Z Xach: I assure there is
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2017-01-10T13:11:07Z phoe_: I have a condition type FOO-TYPE and another type FOO-ERROR with supertypes (FOO-TYPE ERROR).
2017-01-10T13:11:57Z phoe_: What combination of HANDLER-BIND and HANDLER-CASE should I use to handle them to assure that handling instances of FOO-ERROR will unwind the stack but handling instances of FOO-TYPE and not FOO-ERROR will not unwind the stack?
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2017-01-10T13:19:38Z loke: HANDLER-BIND are handled before HANDLER-CASE and does not unwind. I'm pretty sure.
2017-01-10T13:20:07Z loke: so HANDLER-BIND you FOO-TYPE, wrapped with a HANDLER-CASE of FOO-ERROR.
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2017-01-10T13:30:32Z phoe_: Aaaaahhhhhhhh.
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2017-01-10T13:30:34Z phoe_: Geez.
2017-01-10T13:30:40Z phoe_: I screwed up when declaring types.
2017-01-10T13:30:46Z phoe_: Half an hour of debugging just to find that.
2017-01-10T13:30:47Z phoe_: <3
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2017-01-10T13:33:34Z ogamita: phoe_: why declare types? CL can infer types automatically and safely for you!
2017-01-10T13:34:32Z phoe_: ogamita: well, it cannot, in one case.
2017-01-10T13:34:40Z ogamita: Which?
2017-01-10T13:34:40Z beach: ogamita: These are definitions of new condition types, not declarations of existing types.
2017-01-10T13:34:46Z phoe_: when I declare CUSTOM-FOO ERROR as FOO-TYPE and not FOO-ERROR.
2017-01-10T13:35:01Z phoe_: Namely, PEBKAC cases.
2017-01-10T13:35:10Z ogamita: You mean it's a naming error here, not a type error.
2017-01-10T13:35:14Z phoe_: Oh yeah.
2017-01-10T13:35:15Z phoe_: Sorry.
2017-01-10T13:35:23Z phoe_: I put the wrong symbol in the wrong place.
2017-01-10T13:35:29Z phoe_: Or rather, wrong symbol in the right place.
2017-01-10T13:35:29Z ogamita: And yes, sometimes you have to name a type, like to signal a condition…
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2017-01-10T13:45:56Z knobo: When loading a system with quicload in emacs/slime and the compilation fail, I want to jumpt to the source file and location where it failed
2017-01-10T13:45:59Z knobo: Is that possible?
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2017-01-10T13:47:30Z jackdaniel: try "v" in the debugger when the cursor is above the frame
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2017-01-10T13:48:51Z Xach: That is not always possible, because it might be from a previous warning that only caused the build to fail at the end.
2017-01-10T13:48:58Z Xach: In other words, there is no debugger
2017-01-10T13:48:59Z knobo: right.
2017-01-10T13:49:06Z Xach: And the warning may be some distance back in the scroll
2017-01-10T13:49:18Z knobo: oh.. there is a debugger, but the frame is pointing to somehere else.
2017-01-10T13:49:43Z knobo: But in the repl, the message: " Line: 49, Column: -1, File-Position: 1085" shows up.
2017-01-10T13:50:01Z ogamita: And when the error occurs while compiling, the backtrace is that of the compiler, not of the source.
2017-01-10T13:50:02Z Xach: That's enough info to manually jump
2017-01-10T13:50:03Z knobo: So, somewhere the information is, but it is not accessable
2017-01-10T13:50:11Z Xach: It would be nice if it was automagic
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2017-01-10T13:50:31Z knobo: yes, I want magic :)
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2017-01-10T13:50:35Z ogamita: At best, the compiler has a stream to the source that is positionned close to the error, and slime can jump to the position indicated by the stream when you inspect it.
2017-01-10T13:50:41Z ogamita: But it's manual.
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2017-01-10T13:51:00Z knobo: But as I'm magical I can just jump manually, and it is still magic :)
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2017-01-10T13:51:43Z Xach: ha
2017-01-10T13:51:47Z Xach: That is the spirit!
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2017-01-10T14:20:08Z loke: Re
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2017-01-10T14:33:10Z rumbler31: how does one go about implementing skip lists in lisp?
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2017-01-10T14:34:10Z ogamita: the simpliest would be to use cons cells.
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2017-01-10T14:34:53Z phoe_: rumbler31: http://ticki.github.io/blog/skip-lists-done-right/
2017-01-10T14:34:59Z phoe_: look, these diagrams have cons cells
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2017-01-10T14:35:19Z ogamita: rumbler31: (loop for cell ON '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) by (function cddr) collect cell) #| --> ((1 2 . #1=(3 4 . #2=(5 6 . #3=(7 8 . #4=(9))))) #1# #2# #3# #4#) |#
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2017-01-10T14:35:36Z ogamita: Yeah, be sure to (setf *print-circle* t) when you deal with conses. :-)
2017-01-10T14:36:18Z ogamita: Notice how the whole list is in the first car of the result above, but in the following cars, you have #1# #2#, etc, that points to the following even cells in the original list.
2017-01-10T14:38:23Z ogamita: rumbler31: the important point is to change your mindset. Now, instead of dealing with lists at the element level using keywords such as :for e :IN list, you must deal with cons cells, with keywords such as :for cell :ON list
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2017-01-10T14:46:15Z Younder: The natural structure for cons cells is a directed tree. A list is just a degenerate case. I find it useful to keep that in mind.
2017-01-10T14:46:22Z dlowe: uh, that's not a skip list, ogamita
2017-01-10T14:47:24Z beach: rumbler31: I have some very old code I can show you.
2017-01-10T14:47:25Z dlowe: but yeah, cons cells
2017-01-10T14:47:34Z beach: I wouldn't write it like that these days.
2017-01-10T14:47:50Z Younder: Circular references are possible. But I wouldn't recommend it as it messes up garbage collection.
2017-01-10T14:48:49Z dlowe: maybe in perl it does
2017-01-10T14:49:04Z dlowe: it's fine in nearly all lisp implementations
2017-01-10T14:49:05Z ogamita: dlowe: no, it's an example of manipulating cons cells.
2017-01-10T14:49:08Z loke: Younder: In what way does circular references mess up GC? What lisp are you using that has a broken garbage collector?
2017-01-10T14:49:13Z dlowe: ogamita: oh, ok. nvm.
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2017-01-10T14:49:37Z ogamita: Younder: it doesn't mess lisp GC, only other languages GCs that are refcount based, how silly is that!
2017-01-10T14:50:17Z ogamita: loke: but you're right I should try harder. Next time I'll provide a whole implementation of skip lists in a single irc one-liner.
2017-01-10T14:50:20Z rumbler31: ok.. so uh
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2017-01-10T14:50:52Z dlowe: ogamita: you snarked at the wrong person :p
2017-01-10T14:51:01Z rumbler31: as i traverse this and wish to make new links, then really it comes down to setting the cdr and car of a cons to be whichever new conses I need them to link to
2017-01-10T14:51:54Z rumbler31: i'm sure this probably seems very simple, but I don't know why it hasn't clicked.
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2017-01-10T14:53:39Z loke: That's find. I'll happily accept the snark since I tend to be snarky too sometimes. I deserve it.
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2017-01-10T14:57:36Z ogamita: loke: Sorry. Indeed I meant dlowe.  You're too Hamilton-close :-)
2017-01-10T14:58:19Z dlowe: ... Hamming?
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2017-01-10T15:02:17Z ogamita: Ok, I'm tired, after a 2-week too short Holidays.
2017-01-10T15:03:01Z dlowe: Get some rest. If you don't have your health, you don't have anything
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2017-01-10T15:13:37Z phoe_: ^
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2017-01-10T15:35:13Z loke: ogamita: Where did you go on the holidays?
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2017-01-10T15:39:18Z dlowe: #lispcafe, please.
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2017-01-10T15:46:07Z Younder: So #lispcafe is a offtopic area?
2017-01-10T15:47:32Z dlowe: that's the idea
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2017-01-10T15:48:22Z dlowe: ##lisp is for other and any lisps
2017-01-10T15:48:52Z dlowe: http://cliki.net/irc
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2017-01-10T15:53:50Z axion: Is there a way to list new Common Lisp repositories on Github, and secondly, is there a way to make it an RSS feed if so?
2017-01-10T15:54:09Z rpav: yeah i already have that RSS'd
2017-01-10T15:54:25Z axion: Oh how so?
2017-01-10T15:54:34Z rpav: http://planet.lisp.org/github.atom
2017-01-10T15:55:14Z axion: Thanks.
2017-01-10T15:55:24Z jurov: many projects are on gitlab, not github
2017-01-10T15:55:29Z axion: I actually just checked that site before, and didn't see mention of that feed
2017-01-10T15:55:36Z axion: Wonder how you came across it :)
2017-01-10T15:55:48Z rpav: iirc Xach posted it awhile back
2017-01-10T15:55:59Z rpav: possibly created it, no idea heh
2017-01-10T15:56:11Z dlowe: I have it rssed too :)
2017-01-10T15:56:53Z dlowe: honestly, though, I hit something interesting on it ~never
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2017-01-10T15:57:04Z dlowe: it's almost entirely trash
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2017-01-10T15:59:06Z Younder: Well should get a
2017-01-10T15:59:17Z Younder: back to my work on lineedit
2017-01-10T16:01:05Z Xach: dlowe: when i see something that sounds interesting, it's usually just a stub :(
2017-01-10T16:01:29Z dlowe: yeah. I'm guilty of making stubs as anyone
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2017-01-10T16:02:16Z Xach: NO! projects must spring forth fully formed, documented, and ready to run
2017-01-10T16:02:40Z ogamita: loke: I went to iMac-land, saw some Common Lisp hills ;-)
2017-01-10T16:03:41Z ogamita: axion: github and gitlab have APIs, so I guess it should be possible to do something.  Even better if you do it in CL!
2017-01-10T16:04:52Z ogamita: Stubs remain as local gits. You can always push when you make your first commits.
2017-01-10T16:06:23Z PuercoPop: Once in a while there is an interesting proyect, I stumbled into cl-hamt that way.
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2017-01-10T16:06:46Z axion: ogamita: Your prose is familiar. Why the name change?
2017-01-10T16:07:22Z PuercoPop: Today, the thing of note is that rtoy appears to have moved series to github (and that series can be loaded with ASDF, news to me at least)
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2017-01-10T16:16:04Z ogamita: axion: depending on the point of access.
2017-01-10T16:16:22Z ogamita: axion: compare /whois pjb with /whois ogamita
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2017-01-10T16:20:02Z axion: ah
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2017-01-10T16:22:55Z ogamita: axion: eg. beach = playa = strandh depending on the point of access too.
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2017-01-10T16:35:41Z beach: ogamita: "spiaggia" rather than "strandh"
2017-01-10T16:36:37Z ogamita: Right.
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2017-01-10T16:37:20Z ogamita: Not to say that XMPP doesn't have some improvements over IRC…
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2017-01-10T16:37:58Z dlowe: I just use a znc bouncer to keep my session alive
2017-01-10T16:38:10Z beach: Here is the current state of our paper on implementing the sequence functions: http://metamodular.com/sequence-functions.pdf
2017-01-10T16:38:21Z beach: Not done yet, but significant progress has been made.
2017-01-10T16:38:44Z john_g_: hi folks, i'm wanting to pick up a functional language to expand my brain past (long time imperative dev), im looking for some guidance to picking a lisp variant to start with, if lisp is indeed a good first choice
2017-01-10T16:38:45Z beach: We intend to submit it to ELS2017.
2017-01-10T16:39:16Z beach: john_g_: This channel is about Common Lisp, which is not a particularly "functional" language in that sense of the word.
2017-01-10T16:40:12Z beach: john_g_: On the other hand, if you want a multi-paradigm language that does support functional programming, and which has a better object-oriented system than you might be used to, then Common Lisp could be for you.
2017-01-10T16:40:35Z beach: john_g_: It will certainly expand your views, either way.
2017-01-10T16:41:13Z john_g_: hrm, im not adverse to having an object system, i just don't want to mentally project my OO experience onto it, i guess
2017-01-10T16:41:37Z ogamita: beach: couldn't a compiler include a generalization of with-end, for any constant expression in the loop whose values could be of different type, or that determines a conditional?
2017-01-10T16:42:23Z ogamita: s/type/types/
2017-01-10T16:42:54Z beach: ogamita: Sounds right.  We haven't thought too much about constant expressions.
2017-01-10T16:44:02Z ogamita: For values determining conditionals, it would be trivial.  For values of different types, I guess the compiler could even perform a kind of symbolic type analysis to determine if it's useful (or for what types), to split the loops.
2017-01-10T16:44:11Z beach: john_g_: Common Lisp is a very pragmatic language, and it has some excellent implementations that will generate very fast code.  But it does not enforce many of the constraints that one typically thinks of when one hears "functional programming language" , such as absence of side effects.
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2017-01-10T16:45:20Z beach: ogamita: Well, for this particular work, we assume the compiler can not make such decisions, so we always duplicate the loop.  Then the compiler may remove code that it can prove will never be executed.
2017-01-10T16:45:20Z ogamita: well, constant expression is just a generalization for free variables. (end is a free variable in that loop).
2017-01-10T16:45:35Z john_g_: oh i see. is writing stateless code simple/idiomatic , or would i be fighting things?
2017-01-10T16:45:43Z ogamita: beach: yes.  I was thinking more about new compilers such as sicl ;-)
2017-01-10T16:46:04Z ogamita: john_g_: perfectly idiomatic, and rather simple.
2017-01-10T16:46:12Z beach: john_g_: It is idiomatic.  But it is mostly used in macro expanders, and for code that for some other reason needs to be purely functional.
2017-01-10T16:46:29Z beach: ogamita: Yes, different paper. :)
2017-01-10T16:46:31Z ogamita: john_g_: on the other hand, since we have both world available, we often use mutation to implement a function, but then consider the result immutable.
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2017-01-10T16:47:22Z ogamita: beach: it'd be interesting to compare a few sequence functions implemented this way on exiting implementations with what they offer.
2017-01-10T16:47:25Z beach: ogamita: http://metamodular.com/path-replication.pdf
2017-01-10T16:47:47Z beach: ogamita: Excellent.  Before the submission, or any time?
2017-01-10T16:48:16Z ogamita: :-) I'm quite buzy these times…
2017-01-10T16:48:18Z beach: ogamita: There is a messy implementation in the SICL repository.  If you need to, I can point out to you what system is relevant.
2017-01-10T16:48:38Z beach: ogamita: Let me know when you want to do this, and I'll assist as much as I can.
2017-01-10T16:48:51Z beach: ogamita: I am busy too, with, er, paper submissions. :)
2017-01-10T16:50:44Z ogamita: But you have slaves^W students?
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2017-01-10T16:56:40Z beach: ogamita: I do not.
2017-01-10T16:57:18Z beach: I have an excellent co-author, though. :)
2017-01-10T16:57:24Z ogamita: A mixed blessing then :-/
2017-01-10T16:59:13Z Younder: beach are you referring to DrMeister?
2017-01-10T17:00:05Z Younder: I have noticed clasp uses SICL.
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2017-01-10T17:00:24Z ogamita: Younder: Irène Durand
2017-01-10T17:00:39Z ogamita: cf. the two past references.
2017-01-10T17:00:39Z beach: No, I am referring to the person who is mentioned under the title of the paper that I posted the first link to.
2017-01-10T17:00:56Z Younder: oh yeah
2017-01-10T17:01:43Z Younder: I probably should have that somewhere here but I am just back from vacation. Sorry
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2017-01-10T17:04:25Z beach: Younder: Yes, when drmeister figured out that he needed a faster compiler for Clasp than the one he has written, he turned to Cleavir, the compilation framework that I developed as part of the SICL project.  Apparently, it is working fairly well for him.  And now, jackdaniel has hinted that he is going to try to use Cleavir as well, in order to create an alternative compiler for ECL.
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2017-01-10T17:05:19Z beach: As far as I can tell, Cleavir is the only attempt at an implementation-independent compiler framework for Common Lisp.
2017-01-10T17:06:09Z beach: It is fun, but the fact that it is implementation-independent (or rather customizable by the implementation) makes my life an order of magnitude harder than if I could write a compiler for a particular implementation.
2017-01-10T17:06:23Z Younder: Thanks for the heads up.
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2017-01-10T17:06:50Z beach: Yeah, well, it was for the benefits of all those #lisp participants who haven't heard me talk about it for some time. :)
2017-01-10T17:07:11Z dlowe: beach: it was clearly a great idea whose time had come
2017-01-10T17:07:21Z beach: dlowe: Thanks!
2017-01-10T17:08:04Z beach: I think I was lucky that Clasp needed something like that.  Otherwise, my projects tend not to be very widely used. :)
2017-01-10T17:08:44Z beach: But that's fine.  They serve as a vehicle for writing papers, which I use to justify my salary.
2017-01-10T17:08:59Z Younder: lol
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2017-01-10T17:49:46Z jasom: beach: how does Cleavir support GC?
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2017-01-10T17:50:50Z jasom: beach: I've looked at implementing alternative GC algorithms in other lisp compilers and find that I'd have to rewrite significant parts of the compiler if I want to have different semantics than the existing GC.
2017-01-10T17:51:45Z Bike: most of cleavir right now is more abstract stuff. there's GC in sicl but I don't know if things are far enough along to be integrated.
2017-01-10T17:52:55Z Bike: clasp has two GCs to use, so it works on some level, at least
2017-01-10T17:52:58Z Younder: Gc is a problem performance wise for now.-
2017-01-10T17:53:35Z jasom: Bike: I'm thinking things like write-barriers for incremental or concurrent GCs
2017-01-10T17:53:41Z Bike: sure.
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2017-01-10T17:56:49Z Bike: right now cleavir output is an intermediate representation control flow graph.
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2017-01-10T17:57:11Z Bike: buuuut it's all generic functions, and most of them have a "system" argument to specialize on, so you could have it generate different code based on that.
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2017-01-10T17:59:41Z Younder: I express my ignorance. I still don't really see the limitations of compile-macro.
2017-01-10T17:59:52Z Bike: you mean compiler macros?
2017-01-10T17:59:58Z Younder: yes
2017-01-10T18:00:38Z Bike: can't access information about declarations, or information from flow analysis that can't be done to regular source
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2017-01-10T18:01:05Z Younder: Ahh. I knew I was missing something.
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2017-01-10T18:48:25Z beach: jasom: Listen to Bike!  I am off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2017-01-10T21:01:27Z PuercoPop: Does anyone know what the relevant CLHS entry is on when can one depend on previous variables in the file to be referred to by the reader for read-time evaluation? (I'm guessing one can't depend on but want to be sure)
2017-01-10T21:01:39Z PuercoPop: It is in relation to this PR https://github.com/mmontone/djula/pull/38/files
2017-01-10T21:02:15Z Bike: i think that code is actually wrong
2017-01-10T21:02:22Z Bike: "If a defconstant form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that name names a constant variable. An implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time, load time, or both."
2017-01-10T21:02:35Z Bike: so it doesn't have to be available in the compiler.
2017-01-10T21:03:01Z PuercoPop: Bike: so not at read-time right?
2017-01-10T21:03:20Z Bike: not available at read time, no
2017-01-10T21:03:46Z PuercoPop: I'm not sure much is lost if the read-time evaluation is dropped and the previous define-constant wrapped in an eval-when
2017-01-10T21:04:18Z Bike: i think you can just drop the #. and not even add an eval-when and it will be ok
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2017-01-10T21:12:05Z PuercoPop: Bike: I just remembered that I submitted a patch to ABCL to give this character a name. aarvid must be on an older ABCL.
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2017-01-10T21:13:03Z Bike: well, even if you did that you might not be able to write it as a literal string
2017-01-10T21:13:12Z Bike: er... that doesn't matter. nevermind
2017-01-10T21:14:41Z dlowe: I have the weirdest thing right now. Two strings that are string=, but not string-equal
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2017-01-10T21:14:53Z dlowe: I'm wondering if sbcl at head was broken when I compiled this
2017-01-10T21:15:05Z Bike: string-equal is less case sensitive
2017-01-10T21:15:21Z dlowe: Bike: you got that backwards
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2017-01-10T21:15:29Z dlowe: er, no you didn't
2017-01-10T21:15:35Z dlowe: damn you logical negation
2017-01-10T21:15:54Z dlowe: anyway, that shouldn't even be possible, right?
2017-01-10T21:16:20Z Bike: (string= "Ab" "ab") NIL, (string-equal "Ab" "ab") T
2017-01-10T21:16:40Z Bike: oh this time i got you backwards
2017-01-10T21:16:41Z Bike: sorry
2017-01-10T21:17:03Z Bike: no, i don't think that's possible
2017-01-10T21:17:07Z dlowe: from REPL: (string= "threshold" "threshold") -> T   (string-equal "threshold" "threshold") -> T
2017-01-10T21:17:21Z dlowe: from IRC: (string= "threshold" "threshold") -> T    (string-equal "threshold" "threshold") -> NIL
2017-01-10T21:17:33Z dlowe: I don't even.
2017-01-10T21:17:48Z Bike: IRC?
2017-01-10T21:18:08Z dlowe: Yeah, this is occurring in the cl-irc library
2017-01-10T21:18:27Z dlowe: and it's just a simple check to see if a message is from your own nick
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2017-01-10T21:18:51Z _death: store those strings somewhere and inspect them
2017-01-10T21:19:36Z dlowe: good idea
2017-01-10T21:24:19Z dlowe: okay.
2017-01-10T21:24:58Z dlowe: IFF I have a function that calls STRING-EQUAL on a simple-string and an adjustable VECTOR of characters, it returns NIL.
2017-01-10T21:25:12Z dlowe: if I call string-equal on the REPL, it returns T
2017-01-10T21:26:43Z _death: (string-equal "A" (make-array 1 :adjustable t :element-type 'character :initial-element #\a)) ==> T here
2017-01-10T21:27:19Z dlowe: _death: on the repl?
2017-01-10T21:27:49Z flip214_: might be an interpreter vs. compiler difference?
2017-01-10T21:27:57Z _death: yes
2017-01-10T21:28:07Z dlowe: _death: I already said the repl worked.
2017-01-10T21:28:36Z _death: dlowe: well, repl/irc is not a meaningful distinction for me
2017-01-10T21:28:36Z dlowe: (foo (copy-seq a) b) works
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2017-01-10T21:29:55Z _death: maybe debug string-equal itself then
2017-01-10T21:30:17Z dlowe: yeah, I looked into that and it's a pretty deep rabbit hole.
2017-01-10T21:30:17Z Bike: if you know the context the calls are compiled in that could help
2017-01-10T21:30:42Z dlowe: Bike: (defun foo (a b) (string-equal a b)) is enough to trigger the behavior
2017-01-10T21:31:14Z dlowe: so on the REPL, (string-equal a b) => T, but (foo a b) => NIL
2017-01-10T21:31:34Z _death: dlowe: but don't you have the two objects you saved and string-equal results in nil from the repl?  how did you arrive at the simple-string/adjustable-vector hypothesis
2017-01-10T21:31:34Z Bike: not for me. assuming one argument is a simple-string and the other is like death had
2017-01-10T21:31:51Z dlowe: _death: I've saved the two object in a and b
2017-01-10T21:32:00Z dlowe: a is an adjustable vector
2017-01-10T21:32:58Z dlowe: ok, so it's not *just* being adjustable :p
2017-01-10T21:33:45Z _death: dlowe: string-equal uses with-two-strings macro, which according to a comment hacks its arguments into simple-strings.. maybe that's the culprit
2017-01-10T21:34:28Z dlowe: Bike: yeah, it looks like my a string is really special somehow :/
2017-01-10T21:34:58Z Bike: anything interesting from describe?
2017-01-10T21:35:15Z dlowe: Bike: yes!
2017-01-10T21:35:19Z dlowe: it's also displaced.
2017-01-10T21:36:50Z dlowe: that's it.
2017-01-10T21:36:59Z dlowe: (foo (make-array 1 :element-type 'character :adjustable t :displaced-to "ba" :displaced-index-offset 1) "a") will break
2017-01-10T21:37:27Z dlowe: the offset has to be non-zero
2017-01-10T21:38:07Z Bike: still T here.
2017-01-10T21:38:25Z dlowe: yeah, it's T in this other sbcl I'm using
2017-01-10T21:38:34Z _death: what version of sbcl..
2017-01-10T21:38:58Z dlowe: SBCL 1.3.12.56-764b322,
2017-01-10T21:40:35Z dlowe: was HEAD on 2016-12-12
2017-01-10T21:40:49Z _death: seems it was a bug that was fixed in commit bcf8eba
2017-01-10T21:41:15Z _death: (2016-12-19)
2017-01-10T21:41:43Z dlowe: first time being on HEAD ever turned out badly for me
2017-01-10T21:41:47Z Bike: "It ignored displaced-index-offset."
2017-01-10T21:41:59Z dlowe: yeah, I thought it might be something like that.
2017-01-10T21:42:12Z dlowe: welp, sorry folks.
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2017-01-10T21:42:27Z Bike: meh, that was subtle
2017-01-10T21:42:50Z dlowe will remember next time to use both inspect and describe
2017-01-10T21:43:01Z dlowe: in other news, slime-inspect doesn't show displaced arrays
2017-01-10T21:44:05Z _death: dlowe: it's just that your HEAD was a week too early ;)
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2017-01-10T22:04:36Z sebboh: Hi all.
2017-01-10T22:05:19Z sebboh: I used (loop ...) in a sentence! ... :P
2017-01-10T22:06:48Z Xach: watch out for knee-jerk anti-loopism
2017-01-10T22:07:21Z sebboh: But it's not quite right...   (loop for x in '("foo" "bar") collect `(tr (td ,x))) ==> ((TR (TD "foo")) (TR (TD "bar"))), which is close to what I want.  But I don't want that outer-most list, the one with two elements...
2017-01-10T22:09:04Z Xach: Do you want multiple values instead?
2017-01-10T22:09:04Z sebboh: because, there's a DSL that takes a bunch of (tr (td ...))  (tr (td ...))  (tr (td ...)) in series... not in a list.  Should I just let that loop return a list and then pop them out?  Or... something else?  I am a newbie.  ...Still, somehow. :P
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2017-01-10T22:09:21Z Xach: sebboh: ,@ is how that is solved in macro syntax.
2017-01-10T22:09:35Z Xach: Splicing a list into the structure, rather than putting it in as a list.
2017-01-10T22:09:41Z sebboh: Xach, ok, I'll look into this!
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2017-01-10T22:30:23Z sebboh: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336284
2017-01-10T22:30:45Z sebboh: Xach, I couldn't figure out how to use the at-sign reader macro thing.
2017-01-10T22:31:02Z sebboh: though it does sound like a solution.
2017-01-10T22:36:26Z Xach: sebboh: is html or table a macro?
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2017-01-10T22:49:07Z sebboh: Xach, just saw your question, but I can't check right now.  Thanks though!
2017-01-10T22:49:24Z Xach: ok
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2017-01-10T22:50:57Z drmeister: Does anyone know why in emacs the returned value from evaluating an expression is printed twice? As in...
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2017-01-10T22:51:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Stu5ELm0/
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2017-01-10T22:52:21Z drmeister: This happens sometimes when I use M-x shell
2017-01-10T22:52:51Z drmeister: I've got a second shell open where it doesn't happen - it only prints once.
2017-01-10T22:53:23Z PuercoPop: drmeister: do they have the same color? one may be printed to stdout and the other returned
2017-01-10T22:53:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/arEof7VO/
2017-01-10T22:54:33Z Bike: it looks like the first line is the command and the second is the output.
2017-01-10T22:54:36Z drmeister: Here's a screen shot:
2017-01-10T22:54:37Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/8912GBe.png
2017-01-10T22:55:04Z drmeister: I've seen this before and I've always ignored it - thinking it was some weird echo effect with emacs shell.
2017-01-10T22:55:15Z drmeister: Here's the bizarre thing and why I'm asking...
2017-01-10T22:55:40Z Bike: wow, it's very verbose, if you do echo !! it prints "echo !!" then "echo [last command]" then "[last command]"
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2017-01-10T22:56:11Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/1RLVvV9.png
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2017-01-10T22:56:43Z drmeister: I'm trying to debug array printing code in clasp and it's printing the result twice - two different ways!
2017-01-10T22:56:45Z Bike: yeah, so the #*11 is just an echo of what you entered, and #(1 1 1) is what clasp is actually printing. is my interpretation.
2017-01-10T22:56:56Z drmeister: Ok, that makes sense.
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2017-01-10T22:57:21Z drmeister: I must be tired - not thinking of that.  I was coming up with all kinds of weird scenarios.
2017-01-10T22:57:25Z Bike: if you put in (+ 2 2) i imagine it would print that and then 4.
2017-01-10T22:57:52Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/fjkHA3L.png
2017-01-10T22:57:55Z drmeister: Precisely
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2017-01-10T22:58:05Z drmeister: Ok, no huge mystery.
2017-01-10T22:58:32Z drmeister: So there is the mystery of why #*11 -> #(1 1)
2017-01-10T22:58:46Z Bike: i'm guessing that is clasp's problem.
2017-01-10T22:58:56Z drmeister: It's the pretty printer.  When I (setf *print-pretty*) it prints as expected.
2017-01-10T22:59:13Z Bike: if you (setq comint-process-echoes t) it might stop the echo behavior
2017-01-10T22:59:21Z Bike: setf print-pretty nil, you mean?
2017-01-10T22:59:37Z drmeister: (setf *print-pretty* nil)
2017-01-10T22:59:50Z drmeister: If that's what you mean.  That gives me the expected printing behavior.
2017-01-10T23:00:08Z drmeister: So pretty printing is not dispatching correctly for bitvectors.
2017-01-10T23:00:29Z drmeister: I'm still working on incorporating the new C++ classes into the CL class hierarchy.
2017-01-10T23:00:51Z Bike: i tried looking through clasp's printer before for some other bug but unfortunately, as you already know, C++
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2017-01-10T23:03:32Z drmeister: Found it - it's a bad predicate   (bit-vector-p #*1111) --> nil
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2017-01-10T23:04:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wLGCkJGE/
2017-01-10T23:04:22Z drmeister: Bleh
2017-01-10T23:04:46Z drmeister: Needs to be...
2017-01-10T23:04:47Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/BVXRMg90/
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2017-01-10T23:33:48Z emaczen: I'm testing a system whose values depend on a macro. It seems to me like the macro just expands, and that the expansion is never compiled becaus when I run asdf:test-system every test fails. However, if I visit the file and evaluate slime-compile-and-load-file, and then run asdf:test-system all of my tests pass.
2017-01-10T23:34:25Z emaczen: What should I add to my macro, and what causes it (I think) not to compile? These macros are standalone forms in this file.
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2017-01-10T23:49:12Z emaczen: My macros just expand into a progn form whose last form is a value of an object
2017-01-10T23:50:39Z Bike: it's kind of difficult to guess what's happening without more information
2017-01-10T23:54:40Z emaczen: Bike: Well asdf:test-system calls asdf:test-system which compiles each file in the system.
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2017-01-11T04:29:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-11T10:05:50Z hjudt: i have classes storing data with many slots that i want to access from other packages. i could of course add accessors for every slot, but this feels clumsy. so i have written a macro replacing with-slots that simply adds the package name and :: as a prefix of the symbol using intern: http://pastebin.com/uYxSVAb6
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2017-01-11T10:06:49Z hjudt: it seems to work fine, but are there any side-effects i did not think about? i will probably also add a data-slot-value similar to slot-value since this is really convenient.
2017-01-11T10:08:24Z jdz: hjudt: Why not export the slot names and use plain WITH-SLOTS?
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2017-01-11T10:11:23Z hjudt: hm. that means i will need to use the package, because importing all the slot names is not a viable way to go.
2017-01-11T10:11:45Z jdz: hjudt: why is that?
2017-01-11T10:12:16Z hjudt: because there are many slots and the list would be very long.
2017-01-11T10:12:23Z jdz: hjudt: also, you don't have to import them.
2017-01-11T10:12:52Z jdz: And this would allow you to use FIND-SYMBOL, instead of INTERN.
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2017-01-11T10:13:06Z hjudt: i cannot use them with with-slots if i don't import them
2017-01-11T10:13:14Z jdz: Which would trigger a compile time error when you have a typo.
2017-01-11T10:13:22Z hjudt: without specifying pkg-name every time
2017-01-11T10:14:06Z jdz: You could have all the slot names in a separate package, and use only that.
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2017-01-11T10:47:52Z phoe_: LOOP question: I have a list (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8). How can I bind two vars, let's say X and Y, inside a LOOP body that iterate along that list?
2017-01-11T10:48:12Z phoe_: So X = 1 and Y = 2, then X = 3 and Y = 4, ..., X = 7 and Y = 8, end.
2017-01-11T10:48:14Z flip214_: phoe_: with both having the same value, or successive values, one trailing the other?
2017-01-11T10:48:22Z phoe_: flip214_: by CDDR
2017-01-11T10:48:37Z flip214_: phoe_: (loop for (x y . rest) in list by #'cddr
2017-01-11T10:48:39Z flip214_: )
2017-01-11T10:48:46Z phoe_: Oooh. Thank you!
2017-01-11T10:48:52Z flip214_: or perhaps without . rest
2017-01-11T10:49:24Z phoe_: (loop for (a b) in '(1 2 3 4 5 6) do (print a))
2017-01-11T10:49:34Z phoe_: 1 is not a lift.
2017-01-11T10:49:35Z phoe_: list.
2017-01-11T10:50:03Z phoe_: It attempts to destructure 1.
2017-01-11T10:50:25Z scymtym: for (a b) in -> for (a b) on
2017-01-11T10:51:13Z phoe_: scymtym: thanks! It works.
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2017-01-11T11:46:20Z malice: Hi, I want to compile CL code and turn it into an executable file, what should I use?
2017-01-11T11:46:33Z malice: (it's a small project that has few dependancies defined in .asd file)
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2017-01-11T11:47:33Z jackdaniel: malice: use clon
2017-01-11T11:47:40Z jackdaniel: (arbitrary choice of mine of course ;)
2017-01-11T11:47:55Z phoe_: jackdaniel: clon is ambiguous
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2017-01-11T11:48:02Z jackdaniel: is what?
2017-01-11T11:48:11Z phoe_: http://www.cliki.net/CLON
2017-01-11T11:48:14Z jackdaniel: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php (documentation is in english)
2017-01-11T11:48:19Z jackdaniel: command line option nuker
2017-01-11T11:48:21Z phoe_: There are three packages by the name of "CLON" [...]
2017-01-11T11:48:48Z jackdaniel: and by their brief description you may easily find, that only one matches the requirements
2017-01-11T11:50:59Z jackdaniel: malice: "3.7 Creating standalone executable" in quarterly has an example of a simple synopsis definition (here https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/tag/quarterly.html#orgheadline24)
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2017-01-11T11:53:48Z phoe_: Is there an existing function that tells me whether a given string is a valid email address?
2017-01-11T11:54:36Z flip214_: phoe_: ha! good one.
2017-01-11T11:54:39Z JuanDaugherty: RFC valid would be involved.
2017-01-11T11:54:48Z phoe_: flip214_: :D
2017-01-11T11:54:53Z phoe_: I know, that's why I ask.
2017-01-11T11:54:53Z flip214_: http://emailregex.com/
2017-01-11T11:54:54Z JuanDaugherty: virtually nobody fully supports it
2017-01-11T11:55:06Z flip214_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/201323/using-a-regular-expression-to-validate-an-email-address
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2017-01-11T11:55:11Z flip214_: https://davidcel.is/posts/stop-validating-email-addresses-with-regex/
2017-01-11T11:55:17Z flip214_: and thousand other hits.
2017-01-11T11:55:23Z JuanDaugherty: although it is a fairly small re rule set
2017-01-11T11:55:36Z flip214_: simple answer: check for a "@.*\.", and send an email to really verify it.
2017-01-11T11:56:47Z phoe_: flip214_: gotcha.
2017-01-11T11:56:53Z JuanDaugherty: take users policy as a parameter to filter what they want to implement is one way
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2017-01-11T11:57:46Z hjudt: jdz: you mean i could export all the slot names into a separate package and use that everywhere. i am already generating the class/slot definitions with a macro, so exporting them wouldn't be much additional work. but i could also use find-symbol instead of intern anyway, couldn't i?
2017-01-11T12:05:15Z hjudt: using only exported symbols is probably much cleaner, though, so i will look into your proposal of using a separate package
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2017-01-11T13:11:32Z Xach: ahungry: why is sb-cover in ahungry-fleece?
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2017-01-11T13:40:19Z malice: I get 'heap exhausted' in sbcl. Is there something wrong with my code, or should I somehow get a bigger heap?
2017-01-11T13:40:56Z JuanDaugherty: prolly the first
2017-01-11T13:41:16Z JuanDaugherty: if the second doesn't work, then it's definitely the first
2017-01-11T13:41:49Z malice: I have a script that should process a (probably large) corpora, and algorithm requires me to store much in the memory
2017-01-11T13:42:00Z ogamita: Well, the second will "work": you'll double the heap size, and it will fail using twice the time!
2017-01-11T13:42:17Z malice: ?
2017-01-11T13:42:33Z ogamita: malice: you should check that your code doesn't keep references to "garbage" (old temporary values).
2017-01-11T13:42:34Z malice: so the lists that I create are created on heap, right?
2017-01-11T13:42:40Z ogamita: yes.
2017-01-11T13:42:44Z malice: hmm
2017-01-11T13:42:52Z ogamita: You can assume everything is on the heap by default in lisp.
2017-01-11T13:42:57Z malice: I'll see what I can do about this
2017-01-11T13:43:20Z ogamita: malice: also, begin with a simple estimation of the size of your dataset.
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2017-01-11T13:50:53Z phoe_: malice: when are you getting this?
2017-01-11T13:50:58Z phoe_: during compilation or during runtime?
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2017-01-11T15:09:27Z PuercoPop: Xach: When you say ILISP was 800% more awesome that SLIME do you mean at the time or still?
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2017-01-11T15:13:40Z Xach: PuercoPop: I don't recall saying something like that.
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2017-01-11T15:16:33Z PuercoPop: Xach: https://twitter.com/xach/status/818498816118849537
2017-01-11T15:16:55Z PuercoPop: ah you meant Slime was more awesome, sorry
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2017-01-11T15:25:49Z sebboh: Xach, re: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336284 .. yes, (html ...) is a macro.  (table ...) is not a macro, it is apparently slurped up by the (html ...) macro...
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2017-01-11T15:26:28Z sebboh: I added the defmacro for (html ...) to the paste.
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2017-01-11T15:27:10Z sebboh: And the code is here: https://github.com/tkych/donuts/blob/master/src/html-like-labels.lisp
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2017-01-11T15:28:56Z sjl: is there a version of mapcar that will work with improper lists hiding in some utility lib somewhere?
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2017-01-11T15:37:14Z phoe_: sjl: what should it do when it encounters an improper list?
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2017-01-11T15:37:27Z sjl: apply the function to the tail atom and cons it
2017-01-11T15:37:44Z phoe_: Cons it?
2017-01-11T15:37:49Z sjl: (mapcar% #'1+ '(1 2 . 3)) -> (2 3 . 4)
2017-01-11T15:37:55Z phoe_: Oh, I see.
2017-01-11T15:38:29Z sebboh: I wrote this loop:  (loop for x in '("foo" "bar") collect `(tr (td ,x))) ==> ((TR (TD "foo")) (TR (TD "bar"))), which is close to what I want.  But I don't want that outer-most list, the one with two elements... Because, there's a DSL that takes a bunch of (tr (td ...))  (tr (td ...))  (tr (td ...)) in series... not in a list.  That pastebin I just linked to has more information.  Xach suggested that I use the ,@ reader macro thing.
2017-01-11T15:38:29Z sebboh: I'm not sure how to use it.  ...And I don't know what question I should ask next.
2017-01-11T15:41:33Z Xach: sebboh: I think I understand the trouble now.
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2017-01-11T15:41:44Z Xach: sebboh: Are HTML and TABLE macros or syntax in the DSL?
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2017-01-11T15:42:11Z sebboh: HTML is a macro, TABLE is syntax in the DSL.
2017-01-11T15:42:15Z _death: sebboh: instead of COLLECT `(TR (TD ...)) it seems you should use DO (TR (TD ...)) .. also, you may want to use a better html generation library
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2017-01-11T15:43:08Z Webinary: What is the most active and modern Lisp implementation?
2017-01-11T15:43:28Z Xach: Webinary: This is a channel for Common Lisp. There are several active implementations.
2017-01-11T15:44:01Z Xach: Webinary: No single one is best at everything. I like SBCL because it's good at the stuff I like to do and runs well on Linux/amd64.
2017-01-11T15:44:20Z sebboh: _death, it's not html, it's a sub-language in graphviz dot language, it's used to express structures akin to a spreadsheet-with-horizontal-or-vertical-cell-merging. :)
2017-01-11T15:44:53Z Webinary: Xach, well, the channel is named Lisp. I am tired of CL because of manual memory mngmnt
2017-01-11T15:45:19Z _death: sebboh: then it's weird that it has an operator named HTML..
2017-01-11T15:45:35Z Xach: Webinary: Ok. Then it is probably better to look in another channel.
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2017-01-11T15:47:07Z phoe_: sjl: it's ugly
2017-01-11T15:47:13Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336343
2017-01-11T15:47:26Z flip214_: Webinary: do you _want_ manual memory management (as in malloc()/free()), or would you like a garbage collector?
2017-01-11T15:47:34Z sjl: yeah that's why I hoped a library already had this, so I didn't have to write the ugly
2017-01-11T15:47:36Z sjl: lol
2017-01-11T15:47:46Z phoe_: if you want to extend to &rest more-lists then replace the funcall with apply
2017-01-11T15:47:50Z phoe_: xD
2017-01-11T15:48:03Z Webinary: flip214_, garbage collector of course
2017-01-11T15:48:14Z flip214_: well, why are you tired of common lisp, then?
2017-01-11T15:48:21Z flip214_: it _has_ a GC.
2017-01-11T15:49:05Z phoe_: Webinary: Common Lisp and manual memory management? how? where?
2017-01-11T15:49:08Z sebboh: _death, in case you're curious: http://graphviz.org/content/node-shapes#html
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2017-01-11T15:49:56Z Webinary: flip214_, becauase CL doesnot have a GC
2017-01-11T15:50:04Z phoe_: Webinary: wat
2017-01-11T15:50:30Z Webinary: phoe_, what?
2017-01-11T15:50:36Z Webinary: phoe, CL doesn't have a GC
2017-01-11T15:50:51Z Xach: All CLs provide a GC.
2017-01-11T15:51:14Z Webinary: Xach, what? How? Why? When? Who?
2017-01-11T15:51:22Z flip214_: Webinary: Webinary http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Garbage-Collection
2017-01-11T15:51:30Z flip214_: as one example.
2017-01-11T15:51:47Z Webinary: flip214, is SBCL the most active CL implementation?
2017-01-11T15:51:52Z Xach: Webinary: If GC is your only objection, you can safely move on to a new one.
2017-01-11T15:51:57Z _death: sebboh: I see.. in any case, you can see from the def-tag macro that it defines a function for the tag.. so you just need to call that function
2017-01-11T15:51:58Z flip214_: Xach: well, aren't there some Lisps that don't, and which will just stop when memory is full?
2017-01-11T15:52:20Z Xach: flip214_: I welcome real counterexamples.
2017-01-11T15:52:40Z flip214_: ISTR some early and/or real cheap lisps. Though not CL, perhaps ;)
2017-01-11T15:53:09Z flip214_: google says https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp
2017-01-11T15:53:14Z flip214_:  A statically typed lisp, without a GC, for high performance applications
2017-01-11T15:53:44Z phoe_: Carp doesn't have a GC because of its design goals. CL ain't Carp.
2017-01-11T15:54:11Z phoe_: Webinary: I'm curious. How did you previously allocate memory in CL if you complain so much about it?
2017-01-11T15:54:40Z _death: it's obvious the guy is troll.. tired of CL because it doesn't have a GC.. tired of water because it's dry
2017-01-11T15:55:10Z flip214_: hmmm, dry ice.
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2017-01-11T15:55:46Z phoe_ shrug
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2017-01-11T15:55:58Z White_Flame: I have never been in any IRC channel with proper discussion, with as many random trolls popping in as #lisp.  What gives?
2017-01-11T15:56:06Z Webinary: I said I am TIRED OF LISP NOT CL
2017-01-11T15:56:31Z _death: maybe go to sleep then
2017-01-11T15:56:33Z flip214_: 16:44 <    Webinary> | Xach, well, the channel is named Lisp. I am tired of CL because of manual memory mngmnt
2017-01-11T15:56:45Z flip214_: seems to be a typo.
2017-01-11T15:56:51Z flip214_: what lisp are you tired of?
2017-01-11T15:57:06Z Xach: ahungry: the suspense is killing me
2017-01-11T15:57:24Z flip214_ finds himself behaving like any old lisper around here...
2017-01-11T15:57:28Z sebboh: It doesn't know.  It probably just has a list of trigger words for lispers.
2017-01-11T15:58:23Z Webinary: flip214_, Racket(?)
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2017-01-11T15:58:48Z flip214_: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/garbagecollection.html
2017-01-11T15:59:06Z flip214_: is the first result of a "racket gc" search
2017-01-11T15:59:15Z flip214_: sorry, will shut up now.
2017-01-11T15:59:18Z flip214_: have a nice day!
2017-01-11T15:59:24Z Webinary: yes, I am a noob
2017-01-11T15:59:44Z White_Flame: also, if you have a beef with racket, try #racket
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2017-01-11T16:13:38Z sebboh: _death I think you lost me around "you can see".  Ok, I'm looking at (defmacro def-tag ...).  Actually, I don't know why I should look at it, because I don't see that any other code in this project refers to def-tag... When I grep all the *.lisp files for "def-tag", case insensitive, the only matches are in the bottom four forms in html-like-labels.lisp...  So how does def-tag ever get involved in some (html ...) invocation?  (I'm sure
2017-01-11T16:13:38Z sebboh: it does, I just don't see it yet.)
2017-01-11T16:13:52Z Webinary: Is Lisp the best lang for AI?
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2017-01-11T16:17:42Z eschulte: any suggestion for "The name NIL does not designate any package." when building an executable with buildapp?  I think this may be due to my version of sbcl (1.3.12) because this stopped working after an upgrade.
2017-01-11T16:17:42Z _death: sebboh: line 92 def-tags with table/tr/td among others.. in turns this expands to a bunch of def-tag forms (line 90), in turn each def-tag form expands to a defun form (line 85)
2017-01-11T16:17:59Z ogamita: eschulte: (defpackage "NIL" (:use))
2017-01-11T16:18:17Z ogamita: eschulte: nah! just joking.
2017-01-11T16:18:48Z ogamita: eschulte: you have to find where the error occurs, and what variable contains nil that is used to name a package.
2017-01-11T16:19:02Z PuercoPop: Xach: IIRC angry-fleece exposes code coverage data as JSON, that is why sb-cover was added. I take it that goes against the quicklisp rule of building in more than one implementation?
2017-01-11T16:19:29Z eschulte: yeah, I looked in the dumper script generated by buildapp and didn't see anything that looked like it could be nil, will look again
2017-01-11T16:20:07Z sebboh: _death, wait, so there are now defuns named (font ...) (i ...) (tr ...) etc... because (def-tags ...) has been invoked during compile or load or something.
2017-01-11T16:20:09Z sebboh: ?
2017-01-11T16:20:21Z _death: sebboh: yes
2017-01-11T16:21:11Z sebboh: _death, ok, that's good to know.  Thanks. :)
2017-01-11T16:23:19Z sebboh: What do you call a symbol that like, has a value in it.  Like an instance (of an object) in Java.
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2017-01-11T16:26:02Z Xach: PuercoPop: well, it causes problems of clashing with the sbcl sb-cover. does ahungry-fleece work only in sbcl? ahungry, care to chime in?
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2017-01-11T16:31:50Z rumbler31: anyone played with drakma continuation style requests lately?
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2017-01-11T16:32:12Z Xach: rumbler31: I have used them for fetching big stuff in the past
2017-01-11T16:32:21Z Xach: and publishing big stuff
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2017-01-11T16:33:55Z rumbler31: Xach: i'm running into a case where I'm posting stuff to a server and when I'm done I invoke the (funcall continuation nil nil) thing, which is supposed to indicate to drakma that the connection should be closed "i think"  but it seems like after I do this, a tcp input timeout is thrown, as if the connection is left open
2017-01-11T16:34:25Z Xach: rumbler31: hmm
2017-01-11T16:34:32Z Xach: rumbler31: let me see how I used it
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2017-01-11T16:40:40Z Xach: rumbler31: hmm, I didn't use nil, I used an empty octet sequence when posting
2017-01-11T16:40:53Z Xach: rumbler31: I do not know if that is important, though.
2017-01-11T16:41:01Z rumbler31: so the last thing you do is post an empty octet string, then get out of your loop?
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2017-01-11T16:51:29Z Xach: rumbler31: yes
2017-01-11T16:52:48Z Xach: I actually send a short octet vector. It could be as short as 0, or not.
2017-01-11T16:53:00Z Xach: It's basically the remainder after reading full buffers from a file.
2017-01-11T16:53:04Z rumbler31: ok
2017-01-11T16:53:27Z Xach: i use TRUNCATE to find out how many full buffers are there and use the second value as the remainder
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2017-01-11T17:22:07Z sebboh: What do you call a thing that looks like this when printed? #<IN-DONUTS::TAG {10050D9293}>
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2017-01-11T17:23:49Z Bike: an in-donuts::tag
2017-01-11T17:24:17Z sebboh: ok, in-donuts::tag and in-donuts::foo are both instances of ____ ?
2017-01-11T17:24:23Z Bike: who knows?
2017-01-11T17:24:36Z Bike: most likely a standard object, but it's impossible to say. that output is from  print-unreadable-object  if that's what you're asking about
2017-01-11T17:24:52Z White_Flame: #< is the reader macro that means "This can't be read"
2017-01-11T17:25:35Z sebboh: I'm asking about terminology.  Ok, objects?  Ok, print-unreadable-object produces that output.  I'd like to modify the definition of this object so that it prints differently.  Where might I start?
2017-01-11T17:25:48Z White_Flame: clhs print-object
2017-01-11T17:25:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2017-01-11T17:25:49Z Bike: define a method on print-object
2017-01-11T17:26:28Z Bike: the problem is that "thing that looks like this when printed" is not something that has terminology because it's not a distinct type of things
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2017-01-11T17:27:17Z sebboh: In java, I would implement a toString() method.  Ok, define a method on print-object..  uh that's something like (defmethod print-object (my-object-type) ...)  (Of course I'm probably getting the syntax wrong here..)
2017-01-11T17:27:29Z Bike: if you'd look at the clhs page, you'll see the parameters
2017-01-11T17:27:38Z sebboh: ok
2017-01-11T17:28:17Z Bike: in lisp you have it write to a stream instead of a string. then if you want a string you can just use write-to-string or suchlike.
2017-01-11T17:29:00Z White_Flame: sebboh: in Java, methods are attached to object or interfaces.  In CL, methods are standalone, and dispatch on the type of their parameters
2017-01-11T17:29:19Z White_Flame: this neatly solves the problem of "ball collides with wall, does .collide go on Ball or on Wall?"
2017-01-11T17:30:54Z sebboh: White_Flame: yes, I have some modest knowledge of that... It's as if you register various types against a generic method.  The appropriate one is selected at call time...  I think. :)
2017-01-11T17:31:04Z White_Flame: yep
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2017-01-11T17:37:11Z sebboh: Alright! My (defmethod print-object ((obj tag) stream) ...) contains this string "~A; ~A; ~A; ~A" and is good enough for me to tell one tag from another when I print them. :)
2017-01-11T17:37:12Z loke: sebboh: Correct, but I'd like to add that the types are ‘registered’ against the arguments. That way you can dispatch on multiple types at the same time, i.e. you can have a function FOO that accepts two arguments, and you can have four methods on it accepting (int string) (string string) (string int) (int int), etc...
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2017-01-11T17:38:06Z sebboh: In the process I learned that I could probably have just called (name-of my-tag) or something like that.  Maybe (body-of ...).
2017-01-11T17:38:58Z sebboh: loke, would you say that foo has four distinct "method signatures" in that case?
2017-01-11T17:39:11Z White_Flame: it's a good idea to wrap your output in print-unreadable-object, instead of just naked string stuff, if you haven't already
2017-01-11T17:39:15Z White_Flame: clhs print-unreadable-object
2017-01-11T17:39:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm
2017-01-11T17:39:31Z loke: sebboh: You could say so, I guess. It has four different methods. Every method must have a different signature.
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2017-01-11T17:39:59Z White_Flame: The example on that page shows printing one object's field inside the normal #<type ... id>output
2017-01-11T17:40:22Z Xach: And don't forget call-next-method
2017-01-11T17:40:35Z sebboh: White_Flame: I happen to have it wrapped in print-unreadable-object, because the existing defmethod I used as a template had that. Cargo Cult ftw!
2017-01-11T17:41:45Z sebboh: Xach, I haven't heard of that one before.  Would it be used just as the last form in my defmethod?  Should I give it arguments?
2017-01-11T17:43:00Z sebboh: White_Flame, oh, does print-unreadable-object only prepend #< and append >, nothing else?
2017-01-11T17:43:04Z White_Flame: it's can be generally thought of as calling something like .super(), if only regular methods are used
2017-01-11T17:43:08Z White_Flame: -'s
2017-01-11T17:43:21Z White_Flame: sebboh: it also takes care of printing the object type & internal id/pointer
2017-01-11T17:43:41Z White_Flame: the latter can be especially useful if you have unique instances with the same printed fields
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2017-01-11T17:44:20Z sebboh: ... but it didn't print the internal number just now.  I used (with-slots ...)
2017-01-11T17:44:28Z White_Flame: I don't believe there's any other standard way of getting at an internal id/pointer of an object
2017-01-11T17:44:36Z Bike: you have to do :identity t
2017-01-11T17:44:45Z White_Flame: did you pass :identity t to print-unreadable-object?
2017-01-11T17:45:37Z sebboh: I think I can make these guys print readably, though I don't know what ramifications that may have with regard to unique instances...  Is it true that no readably-printed object is a unique instance anymore?
2017-01-11T17:46:07Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean by "unique instance", but that doesn't sound true.
2017-01-11T17:46:19Z Bike: it just means that you can make a similar but not identical object by reading the print output.
2017-01-11T17:46:26Z sebboh: ok
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2017-01-11T17:47:06Z Bike: you don't need to bother making it readable unless you need to do that, anyway.
2017-01-11T17:47:27Z White_Flame: generally the only way to read shared instances is by using #= reader macros
2017-01-11T17:48:02Z White_Flame: unless your output is a call to some sort of factory function which returns reused instancse
2017-01-11T17:48:15Z White_Flame: (which will share instances at runtime, not read time)
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2017-01-11T17:48:32Z sebboh: White_Flame: ah, ok.  A whole topic for another day.
2017-01-11T17:49:10Z sebboh: Whelp, I learned to not use semicolons in my print-object output.
2017-01-11T17:49:26Z Xach: sebboh: Why?
2017-01-11T17:49:30Z White_Flame: heh
2017-01-11T17:49:57Z White_Flame: whitespace is the acceptable delimiter in lisp land
2017-01-11T17:50:31Z sebboh: Xach, screws up syntax highlighting in slime buffer
2017-01-11T17:50:53Z Xach: sebboh: it might help to put it in double-quotes.
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2017-01-11T17:51:02Z sebboh: The ; comment matcher doesn't ignore ; inside #< ... >
2017-01-11T17:51:07Z warweasle: Hi.
2017-01-11T17:51:08Z sebboh: Xach, ok.
2017-01-11T17:51:31Z White_Flame: or use ~s instead of ~a, to get double-quotes around string parameters
2017-01-11T17:51:58Z sebboh: yeah I can just use "~A ~A ~A ~A" ... or ~s per White_Flame's suggestion.
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2017-01-11T18:37:01Z Xach wonders if things would be pretty awful using U+02B9 MODIFIER LETTER PRIME as variable suffixes
2017-01-11T18:37:21Z loke: Xach: Why? :-)
2017-01-11T18:37:42Z Xach: loke: why use it, or why would it be awful?
2017-01-11T18:37:50Z loke: WHy would it be awful?
2017-01-11T18:37:58Z Xach: loke: confusion with ascii single-quote
2017-01-11T18:38:15Z loke: If anyone has problems with it, they're using a bad font. Hence, it's their own fault :-)
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2017-01-11T18:56:38Z Younder: Math font's are rare and many systems don't have them installed by default.
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2017-01-11T18:58:50Z Younder: If you are using a browser the solution might be web-fonts.
2017-01-11T19:00:26Z Younder: something like <link href=//fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Tangerine rel='stylesheet' type='text/css' />
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2017-01-11T19:24:31Z PuercoPop: Xach: ah I see what you mean now, the implementation of sb-cover, sb-md5, etc. are included in the contrib directory. Now I'm curious as well
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2017-01-11T19:41:54Z Xach: ahungry can enlighten
2017-01-11T19:41:55Z Xach: someday!
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2017-01-11T19:47:44Z shka_: hi all
2017-01-11T19:47:54Z shka_: i'm looking for distributed memory library
2017-01-11T19:48:05Z shka_: common lisp or sane C api
2017-01-11T19:48:33Z shka_: is there anything worth using?
2017-01-11T19:48:39Z shka_: rolling my own is a huge task
2017-01-11T19:48:51Z rumbler31: what is distributed memory
2017-01-11T19:49:28Z shka_: divide address space on few machines, transparently get data trough network
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2017-01-11T20:01:18Z rumbler31: there is a library called NML that does this
2017-01-11T20:01:47Z shka_: ok
2017-01-11T20:01:48Z shka_: thanks
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2017-01-11T20:04:32Z shka_: rumbler31: link?
2017-01-11T20:04:36Z shka_: google does not help
2017-01-11T20:09:37Z rumbler31: https://www.nist.gov/el/intelligent-systems-division-73500/networked-control-systems-group/real-time-control-systems
2017-01-11T20:09:40Z rumbler31: eat your heart out
2017-01-11T20:10:17Z shka_: i don't know about the second sentence
2017-01-11T20:10:21Z shka_: but thanks for the link
2017-01-11T20:11:46Z shka_: rumbler31: this is closed source, right?
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2017-01-11T20:16:16Z rumbler31: i don't think so
2017-01-11T20:16:44Z rumbler31: the first link in that page is a link to dl the source
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2017-01-11T20:17:32Z rumbler31: eat your heart out is an expression that means, go nuts, good luck
2017-01-11T20:18:17Z shka_: ooh, ok
2017-01-11T20:18:40Z shka_: anyway, i would never expect to see anything like this is "real time control system"
2017-01-11T20:18:52Z shka_: i mean, what it has to do with real time?
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2017-01-11T20:24:17Z rumbler31: the library abstracts over memory buffers located in a shared memory space (like a backplane) or two hosts over a network connection, for example
2017-01-11T20:25:28Z rumbler31: so programs written that consume the library and an identical set of buffer specs will be compatible in terms of what data they are seeing and where they expect it
2017-01-11T20:28:57Z shka_: hm
2017-01-11T20:29:03Z shka_: this sounds useful!
2017-01-11T20:29:07Z shka_: rumbler31: thanks!
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2017-01-11T20:32:11Z aeth: What's more idiomatic Lisp? (coerce some-number 'single-float) or (float some-number 1f0) ?
2017-01-11T20:32:43Z shka_: i would use first approach
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2017-01-11T20:33:08Z shka_: but let me check something
2017-01-11T20:34:06Z aeth: The 1f0 is required because other floats aren't converted to single-float without it, and also it would only convert to single-float with it (you'd have to specify something like 1d0 if you want doubles no matter what)
2017-01-11T20:34:12Z aeth: In case anyone was wondering
2017-01-11T20:34:18Z shka_: ok, i think that first approach works just fine
2017-01-11T20:34:30Z shka_: and i prefer coerce
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2017-01-11T20:34:47Z shka_: at the very least it is a little more generic
2017-01-11T20:34:49Z Bike: they should be the same, shouldn't they? i don't think it's common enough to be important.
2017-01-11T20:34:51Z White_Flame: btw, they compile down to the same asm instructions in sbcl with optimizations amped up
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2017-01-11T20:35:20Z aeth: Bike: It's common when using upgraded arrays because they don't auto-convert, they error when given e.g. 1/2 instead of 0.5 for a single-float array
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2017-01-11T20:36:31Z aeth: Also e.g. pi is double float in SBCL and in most Lisps (in CLISP it's long-float, which is distinct from double-float!) so that's probably the most common place where I personally coerce
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2017-01-11T20:37:21Z aeth: Even when using double-float pi I should probably coerce just to be safe because of Lisps that have a long-float (I didn't realize CLISP had one, I thought it was a mostly future-proofing issue until I checked)
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2017-01-11T20:38:05Z aeth: pi is required to be long-float, actually, so it can only safely be used with doubles on implementations that don't have a separate long-float. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_pi.htm
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2017-01-11T20:39:50Z aeth: I think it might be unspecified as to what happens with (* arbitrary-single-float long-float-pi) because in some Lisps it'll return single-float (clisp) and in some it'll return a float with the precision of pi (clisp appears to make the result single-float and sbcl appears to make the result double-float)
2017-01-11T20:40:31Z aeth: It looks like ECL is another implementation with long-float, and ECL (* pi 1f0) produces a long-float!
2017-01-11T20:41:39Z aeth: tl;dr: pi needs to be coerced to be used with doubles and singles if you want to be sure your result remains a double or single
2017-01-11T20:42:03Z Bike: actually it should use the better precision. as per uh...
2017-01-11T20:42:05Z Bike: clhs 12.1.4.4
2017-01-11T20:42:06Z specbot: Rule of Float Precision Contagion: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_add.htm
2017-01-11T20:42:39Z aeth: Bike: then Clisp fails the spec because (type-of (* 1f0 pi)) => SINGLE-FLOAT
2017-01-11T20:42:52Z Bike: tragic.
2017-01-11T20:42:55Z aeth: Bike: Every other implementation I have on hand makes it the higher-precision (long for ecl, double for ccl and sbcl)
2017-01-11T20:43:31Z aeth: I do need to get ABCL working so I can test with that, too.
2017-01-11T20:43:34Z Bike: ah, it's in the manual.
2017-01-11T20:43:46Z Bike: it is conformant if custom:*floating-point-contagion-ansi* is true.
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2017-01-11T20:44:57Z aeth: Anyway, ime it's the source of a lot of errors if you don't coerce your pis... Most of the rest of the time you can avoid mistakes just by being explicit with "1f0" "2.0f0", "3.0d0" etc.
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2017-01-11T20:45:45Z aeth: I think I understand why clisp would deviate from the standard there, although if no other Lisp deviates it's basically useless because either you write code that fails everywhere else or you coerce it anyway.
2017-01-11T20:46:26Z Bike: it says it's because it tries to use the actual accuracies of the numbers rather than the precisions.
2017-01-11T20:47:02Z aeth: +single-pi+ and +double-pi+ are probably one way to minimize the use of the verbose coercision in otherwise non-verbose math (usually trig, for radians
2017-01-11T20:47:05Z aeth: )
2017-01-11T20:47:38Z Bike: to convert to radians from degrees, you mean?
2017-01-11T20:47:40Z axion: aeth: type-of is implementation-dependent
2017-01-11T20:48:06Z aeth: Bike: yes, most of the time to convert to radians for use in trig... some of the time to hard-code certain radian angles
2017-01-11T20:48:15Z Bike: axion: it's actually pretty closely specified for floats.
2017-01-11T20:50:02Z axion: I have not tested floats. I do know the standard encourages implementations to have portable returns, but strings for example, produce 4 different results across 6 implementations.
2017-01-11T20:50:09Z axion: subtypep is the same
2017-01-11T20:50:25Z Bike: "For each of the types short-float, single-float, double-float, or long-float of which the object is an element, the typespec is a recognizable subtype of that type. "
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2017-01-11T20:50:35Z Bike: so type-of being vague is irrelevant to this.
2017-01-11T20:51:16Z aeth: axion: (typep (* pi 1f0) 'long-float) => NIL
2017-01-11T20:51:37Z aeth: axion: it's T on afaik every other CL, either because the CL actually has a long-float or equates long-float with double-float
2017-01-11T20:51:51Z Bike: in the first place, type-of does at least have to return a type the object belongs to.
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2017-01-11T20:55:55Z jmarciano: macro I cannot use in mapcar, is there other way how to apply macro on a list?
2017-01-11T20:56:28Z White_Flame: which macro?
2017-01-11T20:56:50Z jmarciano: (DEFMACRO SHELL-FUNCTION (NAME)
2017-01-11T20:56:50Z jmarciano:  "Creates a new shell function with optional arguments to be run as (shellcommand \"ls\" \"-l\")"
2017-01-11T20:56:50Z jmarciano:  `(DEFUN ,(INTERN (STRING-UPCASE NAME)) (&OPTIONAL ARGS)
2017-01-11T20:56:50Z jmarciano:    (SHELL (FORMAT NIL "~a ~a" ,NAME (IF ARGS ARGS "")))))
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2017-01-11T20:57:14Z jmarciano: I would like now to run /bin into that macro
2017-01-11T20:57:43Z White_Flame: there's no reason for that to be a macro
2017-01-11T20:57:50Z Bike: (lambda (name) (shell-function name))
2017-01-11T20:57:57Z White_Flame: oh wait, yeah, defun needs it
2017-01-11T20:57:59Z Bike: or (lambda (name) (shell (format nil bla bla bla)))
2017-01-11T20:58:13Z Bike: whichever you're doing.
2017-01-11T20:58:14Z jmarciano: aha let me try
2017-01-11T20:58:21Z White_Flame: but (lambda (name) (shell-function name)) will always try to (DEFUN NAME ...), not defun the value of NAME
2017-01-11T20:58:40Z Bike: oh. yeah.
2017-01-11T20:58:56Z jmarciano: I get just NAME NAME NAME...
2017-01-11T20:59:00Z Bike: well, if it's a macro you'd usually define another one.
2017-01-11T20:59:03Z White_Flame: since macros happen at compile-time, you need a compile-time expansion into multiple uses of those macros
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2017-01-11T20:59:18Z Bike: (defmacro shell-functions (&rest names) `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (name) `(shell-function ,name)))))
2017-01-11T20:59:22Z Bike: (shell-functions foo bar baz)
2017-01-11T20:59:37Z White_Flame: ...and that saved me the typing
2017-01-11T20:59:46Z Bike: that's what i'm here for
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2017-01-11T21:01:16Z jmarciano: the last one, it works on your side?
2017-01-11T21:01:24Z Bike: which last one?
2017-01-11T21:01:31Z jmarciano: the macro
2017-01-11T21:01:45Z Bike: i didn't test it or anything, i don't have a "shell" function.
2017-01-11T21:01:52Z Bike: but it's pretty straightforward.
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2017-01-11T21:02:45Z jmarciano: I just guess names is missing
2017-01-11T21:02:56Z Bike: I don't know what you mean.
2017-01-11T21:03:02Z Bike: oh. yes. forgot to map over it.
2017-01-11T21:03:58Z phoe:  
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2017-01-11T21:05:31Z jmarciano: well thanks. And how do I make it over list? It is nice like (shell-functions "ls" "expr") and how I put list there like (directory #p"/bin/*")
2017-01-11T21:05:53Z Bike: i can't parse what you just said.
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2017-01-11T21:06:21Z jmarciano: the string arguments are well working. Not if I give list to the shellfunctions
2017-01-11T21:07:09Z Bike: well, you can see that the macro takes a string, since it passes it to string-upcase.
2017-01-11T21:07:19Z Bike: so if you want it to take a list instead you should figure that out.
2017-01-11T21:07:34Z White_Flame: that's part of shell-function, not part of shell-functions
2017-01-11T21:07:41Z jmarciano: oh yes
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2017-01-11T21:09:45Z _death: since your interface separates name and arguments, it's unlikely that you want to use SHELL, which seems to take just a string, but rather a function that takes them separately
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2017-01-11T21:11:10Z jmarciano: yes there are other metods
2017-01-11T21:12:04Z yottabyte: what about static typing? do you guys like it? I have friends who say statically typed languages are easier to debug and the tooling is better
2017-01-11T21:12:37Z jmarciano: never ending story
2017-01-11T21:13:10Z Bike: it's ok in something like haskell. in C and derivatives it's bullshit. i guess.
2017-01-11T21:13:24Z JuanDaugherty: yottabyte, that question could be considered trolling here
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2017-01-11T21:15:17Z yottabyte: no, serious question
2017-01-11T21:15:31Z yottabyte: it's a conversation I was having with a friend who doesn't lisp
2017-01-11T21:15:44Z yottabyte: Bike: why is it ok in haskell but not c or java
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2017-01-11T21:16:15Z Bike: haskell has a solid theory behind it. C is thrown together and can't decide on what an integer is for more than two seconds.
2017-01-11T21:16:19Z _death: yottabyte: it's not relevant to this channel
2017-01-11T21:16:34Z phoe: yottabyte: _death: #lispcafe?
2017-01-11T21:17:11Z yottabyte: ok
2017-01-11T21:19:38Z jmarciano: it would be nice to get my REPL in colors
2017-01-11T21:21:46Z john_g_: static typing in C and derivatives is favoured, in general
2017-01-11T21:22:07Z john_g_: hence stuff like typescript for large projects
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2017-01-11T22:35:01Z sebboh: There's some "pplapi" thing on the front page of some news aggregator today.  I don't know what it is good for... But it has a CL API. http://pplapi.com/docs/learn/using_lisp.html
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2017-01-11T22:35:30Z sebboh: Do some folks in here work on that project?
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2017-01-12T00:26:51Z eschatologist: Whatever happened to IntelliCorp KEE?
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2017-01-12T00:32:50Z pjb: eschatologist: the company still exists https://www.intellicorp.com
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2017-01-12T00:36:45Z eschatologist: And only mentions KEE in its history.
2017-01-12T00:41:47Z pjb: Well, their customers don't seem to be using Lisp Machines, or even Common Lisp much.  It looks like they pivoted to SAGE customers.
2017-01-12T00:41:57Z pjb: Probably more money in that market.
2017-01-12T00:42:21Z pjb: And after a while, one has to pay for the raising and education of one's children…
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2017-01-12T00:58:07Z White_Flame: I'm curious about KEE as well.  Presumably it was a production rule engine you could inject any application's objects into?
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2017-01-12T01:16:36Z pjb: That said, there are similar packages, frame-based systems, etc.   https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/areas/expert/systems/frulekit/0.html   https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/areas/kr/systems/frames/parmenid/0.html
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2017-01-12T01:17:13Z pjb: Only this is old CL code, it would have to be refreshed, perhaps a little restructued to be able to be integrated with an asdf system, and pushed to quicklisp.
2017-01-12T01:17:50Z pjb: I'd guess the "modern" environment would be LISA: http://lisa.sourceforge.net
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2017-01-12T03:13:37Z aeth: Is there a recursive version of the asdf:system-depends-on function?
2017-01-12T03:13:56Z aeth: i.e. to see all of the actual dependencies of a system rather than just the direct dependencies
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2017-01-12T03:18:08Z PuercoPop: aeth: AFAIK asdf:component-depends-on is what builds the dependency graph
2017-01-12T03:20:02Z drmeister: Say I'm writing an EQUALP test for hash-tables.
2017-01-12T03:20:17Z drmeister: Say they are X and Y.
2017-01-12T03:20:25Z drmeister: If the entry count and test match for X and Y
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2017-01-12T03:22:39Z drmeister: Then I do (block compare (maphash (lambda (k v) (if (not (equalp v (gethash k Y))) (return-from compare nil))) X) T)
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2017-01-12T03:23:02Z drmeister: Would that satisfy the equalp test for hash-tables?
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2017-01-12T03:23:50Z drmeister: The CLHS says " it compares the keys of the tables using the :test function and then the values of the matching keys using equalp recursively"
2017-01-12T03:24:17Z drmeister: I'm not sure how to compare the keys of the tables unless I build a list, sort them and then compare them element by element.
2017-01-12T03:24:52Z drmeister: Actually, I'm sure I have to build a list of the keys from both hash-tables, sort them and then compare them key by key.
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2017-01-12T03:25:29Z Bike: sbcl equalp seems to do almost exactly what you wrote.
2017-01-12T03:25:30Z drmeister: It seems that mapping through all the keys of one hash-table and comparing the value from one table to the value from the next is sufficient.
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2017-01-12T03:25:53Z drmeister: Well, thank you for looking at it.
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2017-01-12T03:26:17Z Bike: as in, the mahash you wrote.
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2017-01-12T03:35:38Z aeth: PuercoPop: it seems like that function works on something other than ASDF systems
2017-01-12T03:38:55Z PuercoPop: aeth: IIRC the dependency graph is build with a generic-function that specializes on more than ASDF systems. But don't take my word for it, I may be missremembering
2017-01-12T03:41:35Z PuercoPop: it appears that the function was asdf:make-plan instead
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2017-01-12T03:50:12Z White_Flame: pjb: yeah, I've nosed around the scope of lisp rule engines (and LISA never built successfully for me), but KEE appeared to have some nice integration on genera; not sure of the scope of that
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2017-01-12T04:06:53Z drmeister: What would be a quick way to slice up a bit-vector into 8-bit words?
2017-01-12T04:08:21Z drmeister: #*0010100000010001101001000001000001 --> 0x28234841
2017-01-12T04:09:05Z drmeister: I suppose - just read it a bit at a time.
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2017-01-12T04:21:49Z ahungry:   /lastlog ahungry
2017-01-12T04:21:51Z ahungry: oops
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2017-01-12T04:22:36Z ahungry: so, Xach: I posted a comment on the quicklisp PR explaining it here https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1229
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2017-01-12T04:24:00Z ahungry: initially as a workaround for problems between quickloading the system in a pre-saved core using quicklisp, vs loading in a roswell saved core via roswell install, vs the way I'm setting up a saved image/binary in the repo's own makefile, but the more useful reason to keep it like that now is that I went through and repackaged the entire dependency chain
2017-01-12T04:24:26Z ahungry: so now my feature in af.lib.coverage (code coverage as a CLI table and as a JSON output) are not dependent on an external package's internal functions
2017-01-12T04:25:11Z ahungry: instead I have all those sb-contribs repackgaed as af.lib.contrib.sb-whatever, as the maintenance for such a small set of libs is not very difficult, but I can handle safely integrating any changes they make to my own copy, while making sure af.lib.coverage does not break
2017-01-12T04:25:25Z PuercoPop: ahungry: btw how do you like Roswell so far?
2017-01-12T04:26:53Z ahungry: its cool but it needs to default to a core file for the binaries it produces, I set up a roswell/script.ros structure, so when I 'ros install ahungry/ahungry-fleece', I do receive the ~/.roswell/bin/ahungry-fleece binary - however it takes 1.5 seconds to initialize even on an ssd because it isn't making a core to go with it
2017-01-12T04:27:59Z ahungry: if I run with a saved core, it is of course something like 0.001 seconds to initialize, but its definitely a step in the right direction for common lisp outside the existing CL ecosystem (CLI etc)
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2017-01-12T04:29:57Z PuercoPop: ahungry: so you use it as a buildapp replacement?
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2017-01-12T04:34:44Z ahungry: it can be used as one, atm I am providing it as an alternative to the makefile in ahungry-fleece (AF).  In AF, I was at first adding some simple convenience functions (a small util library), and then decided I like the structure I had set up for most my projects (cli based makefile unit tests), so now AF is pretty good (if you like that structure ) at quickly setting up a skeleton project that has: 1. a working defsystem showing how
2017-01-12T04:34:44Z ahungry: do module chaining and have unit tests depend on it, 2. a CLI based unit test / code coverage facility, 3. roswell files
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2017-01-12T04:36:37Z ahungry: So, with AF set up as a binary, I can now (from CLI or REPL): 'ahungry-fleece make-skelly-project /some/path/new-package' and if I git push to github, have others install it as simply as doing 'ros install ahungry/new-package' (and also hop in said directory and immediately 'make && make test' it)
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2017-01-12T04:38:54Z PuercoPop: ahungry: if all you want is calling CL from the CLI did you give cl-launch a spin?
2017-01-12T04:39:03Z ahungry: i think the bdd style test macros I added in af.lib.testy are easier to use than five-am or some of the other unit test packages also
2017-01-12T04:40:20Z ahungry: I haven't, I was trying to keep dependencies low, and since the binary building happens in a couple makefile commands, thats where I started (https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-fleece/blob/master/Makefile.in)
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2017-01-12T06:08:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-01-12T06:14:44Z akkad: (max (mapc #'(lambda (x) (parse-integer x)) '("1" "2" "3" "4" "5"))) ;; not quite working.
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2017-01-12T06:15:40Z Bike: you want mapcar, not mapc.
2017-01-12T06:15:55Z Bike: also, you need to apply max.
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2017-01-12T06:17:24Z akkad: k
2017-01-12T06:17:43Z akkad: thanks
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2017-01-12T06:35:09Z shrdlu68: Good morning!
2017-01-12T06:35:44Z shrdlu68: Been so busy lately I've hardly done any recreational coding.
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2017-01-12T07:32:47Z aries_liuxueyang: hey, I found some interesting which i am little confused. like this: (setf + 123)
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2017-01-12T07:33:05Z aries_liuxueyang: then the value of `+` is `(SETF + 123)`
2017-01-12T07:33:15Z aries_liuxueyang: anyone knows why?
2017-01-12T07:33:54Z White_Flame: the value of + should be 123
2017-01-12T07:33:55Z H4ns: aries_liuxueyang: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/v_pl_plp.htm
2017-01-12T07:33:58Z jackdaniel:  + is a special veriable (like *), it contains last sexpression
2017-01-12T07:34:16Z jackdaniel: what H4ns said :)
2017-01-12T07:34:54Z White_Flame: yep, the REPL overrides the value of + (and others) after each evaluation.  So while it might set it to 123 (I thought you were talking about internals), it'll get right overwritten
2017-01-12T07:35:01Z jackdaniel: on the other hand: "(let () (setf + 3) +)" -> 3
2017-01-12T07:37:49Z aries_liuxueyang: jackdaniel, White_Flame , H4ns, Thank you so much. I am reading that. I'm suprised it's in the documentation. :P
2017-01-12T07:38:53Z jackdaniel: another useful special variable is / which holds last returned values in a list
2017-01-12T07:39:43Z jackdaniel: and - which holds *current* toplevel form
2017-01-12T07:40:07Z aries_liuxueyang: does that works in lisp program or just in REPL?
2017-01-12T07:40:44Z Bike: these are all repl variables.
2017-01-12T07:41:04Z Bike: they're just for working convenience. they don't have much place in programs.
2017-01-12T07:41:35Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah, seen that in documentation. They're affected by lisp repl.
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2017-01-12T07:47:40Z Bylisp: What is the best and most active and most advanced Common Lisp implementation?
2017-01-12T07:48:36Z beach: Bylisp: That depends on the purpose.
2017-01-12T07:49:01Z Bylisp: beach, my purpose is AI and machine learnig and alike
2017-01-12T07:49:36Z beach: Bylisp: Many people here use SBCL.  But ECL is also maintained, and can be better for embedded applications.
2017-01-12T07:49:52Z beach: Bylisp: There are also commercial implementations that are maintained.
2017-01-12T07:50:06Z White_Flame: assuming statistical AI, SBCL is one of the faster ones.  ECL would be good for embedding with C libraries, Clasp (if it's mature) for C++ libraries
2017-01-12T07:50:39Z White_Flame: although all of them tend to be able to link to C libs via FFI
2017-01-12T07:50:53Z jackdaniel: Bylisp: SBCL is the fastest, CCL is fast more conservative regarding memory use, ECL is small
2017-01-12T07:53:39Z jackdaniel: s/fast more/fast and more/
2017-01-12T07:54:33Z Bylisp: i want the best one for ai
2017-01-12T07:55:10Z White_Flame: "ai" isn't a thing
2017-01-12T07:55:18Z White_Flame: it's a very wide collection of specific techniques
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2017-01-12T07:55:38Z White_Flame: so you either want to use existing libraries, or implement algos
2017-01-12T07:55:41Z Bylisp: general intellignence like human
2017-01-12T07:55:47Z White_Flame: have you designed how it will work?
2017-01-12T07:56:18Z Bylisp: i have some algorithms
2017-01-12T07:56:29Z White_Flame: then have at it
2017-01-12T07:56:38Z White_Flame: all the major CL implementations implement the specification
2017-01-12T07:57:06Z White_Flame: so there's not really any semantic difference, just performance tradeoffs & access to platform specifc
2017-01-12T07:57:10Z White_Flame: *specifics
2017-01-12T07:57:20Z White_Flame: depending on what you specifically need
2017-01-12T07:57:39Z Bylisp: conscious machine
2017-01-12T07:57:41Z White_Flame: but as a toolkit for playing around with algorithms, generally it's just pretty basic data you're working with and doesn't need too many tendrils elsewhere
2017-01-12T07:57:42Z beach: Bylisp: Just write your programs using the standard and any conforming implementation.  You can always change the implementation later.
2017-01-12T07:57:47Z Bylisp: that is my dream
2017-01-12T07:58:57Z Bylisp: beach, is Clojure better Lisp thanCL?
2017-01-12T07:59:54Z beach: Bylisp: This channel is about Common Lisp, so you won't get an unbiased answer to such questions.  Also, for general questions, you are better off not addressing any particular participant.
2017-01-12T07:59:57Z flip214_: it's a different lisp.
2017-01-12T08:00:25Z flip214_: AFAIK, CL has much better library support via QL than Clojure... but I could be wrong.
2017-01-12T08:00:29Z White_Flame: clojure is usually slower (by a lot for naive code), has more syntactic burden, and is focused in immutable data structures in applications
2017-01-12T08:00:56Z White_Flame: so for pure algo exploration, I'd personally stick to CL
2017-01-12T08:00:56Z flip214_: ABCL brings the advantage of being capable to use all the java libraries, too, in case that matters to you.
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2017-01-12T09:47:53Z tetero: How come (defun test () (format t "Input: ~a" (read))) always runs (read) before any of the other expressions? I've tried writing it a few different ways but I can't figure out how to produce something as simple as "Input: " being prefaced to the (read) operation
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2017-01-12T09:49:39Z ogamita: tetero: (+ (* 3 2) 4)  How can you compute the addition without computing the multiplication first?
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2017-01-12T09:50:07Z malice`: Hi all!
2017-01-12T09:50:12Z ogamita: tetero: actually, When you call (test), (read) is the 4th expression that is evaluated.
2017-01-12T09:50:35Z ogamita: tetero: the rule for function calls is to evaluate the arguments from left to right.
2017-01-12T09:51:14Z ogamita: tetero: Sorry, the 5th.
2017-01-12T09:51:32Z tetero: ogamita: Right, but I've also tried (defun test () (format t "Input: ") (setq x (read)) (format t "~a~%" x)) and it still runs (read) first?
2017-01-12T09:51:50Z ogamita: tetero: so calling (test), you have to evaluate this expression (test) first.  Then we have to evaluate (foramt t "Input: ~a" (read)), then we have to evaluate t (its value is t), then evaluate "Input: ~a" (it's value is itself), then finally, we only evaluate (read).
2017-01-12T09:52:05Z ogamita: tetero: your new function is better!
2017-01-12T09:52:11Z ogamita: tetero: but you forgot to flush your buffers.
2017-01-12T09:52:30Z tetero: ogamita: I've tried a few different variations. They all had the same result, so I chose the shortest one for convenience in pasting to irc
2017-01-12T09:52:32Z malice`: tetero: format is a function. A function needs to take evaluated arguments. Therefore, if there is any function call passed as an argument, it will have to be evaluated first before you step into the function
2017-01-12T09:52:36Z ogamita: tetero: (defun test () (format t "Input: ") (finish-output) (clear-input) (setq x (read)) (format t "~a~%" x) (finish-output))
2017-01-12T09:52:51Z ogamita: tetero: also, x is undefined.
2017-01-12T09:53:03Z tetero: Yeah I know it's undefined, but that's a style-warning
2017-01-12T09:53:04Z ogamita: tetero: (defun test () (format t "Input: ") (finish-output) (clear-input) (let ((x (read))) (format t "~a~%" x)) (finish-output))
2017-01-12T09:53:08Z malice`: use let
2017-01-12T09:53:18Z ogamita: it's not more complicated to use let.
2017-01-12T09:53:28Z malice`: ogamita is always one step ahead of me :)
2017-01-12T09:53:41Z tetero: No, but I was trying to make the code as short as possible by excluding irrelevant things
2017-01-12T09:53:48Z tetero: for irc
2017-01-12T09:54:03Z ogamita: sure. But it's always better to make it correct, still.
2017-01-12T09:54:16Z tetero: Yeah I do make it correct when I write the source
2017-01-12T09:54:24Z malice`: tetero: If you give us code Y for problem with code X, we can't help with code X
2017-01-12T09:54:29Z malice`: because all we see is code Y
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2017-01-12T09:54:37Z malice`: if your code is too long, you can use paste service - paste.lisp.org
2017-01-12T09:54:41Z tetero: As I said, the second function that you liked better I had already written before the first
2017-01-12T09:54:48Z ogamita: so, remember, for interactive I/O, you need to flush the buffers!
2017-01-12T09:54:56Z tetero: ogamita: Yeah that's new to me
2017-01-12T09:55:08Z tetero: ogamita: It's what I'm missing. Thanks for that, now I know what to google for
2017-01-12T09:55:16Z ogamita: Only for batch processing you can do I/O without flushing the buffers (they're flushed automatically when they're full, and that's the point of having buffer: that I/O calls don't cost us any actual I/O).
2017-01-12T09:55:35Z tetero: Either way I should know it
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2017-01-12T10:05:29Z beach: tetero: Defining a variable before using it or assigning to it is not "irrelevant".  it is a requirement on conforming programs.
2017-01-12T10:06:30Z tetero: beach: Nor have I implied so. I said that the style-warning was irrelevant to the problem I was having.
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2017-01-12T10:07:08Z beach: OK.
2017-01-12T10:07:58Z tetero: beach: That being said, I do get your point. That omitting code that I might deem irrelevant to the problem might lead to some serious headache for people trying to help in the case I was wrong about it being irrelevant. So noted :-)
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2017-01-12T10:24:00Z aries_liuxueyang: hey, this code snippet: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336409 shows that it seems I have to think carefully when I use functions like nconc or mapcan. Can anyone explains that? That constant list in a function can be changed.
2017-01-12T10:24:46Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: Modifying constant data gives undefined behavior.
2017-01-12T10:24:50Z ogamita: aries_liuxueyang: this is non-conforming code. The effects are not specified. Highly implementation dependent.
2017-01-12T10:24:53Z aries_liuxueyang: I know that nconc and mapcan can change a list. My question is that the constant in a function can be changed.
2017-01-12T10:25:19Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: Since it is undefined behavior, the implementation can do what it wants.
2017-01-12T10:25:20Z ogamita: aries_liuxueyang: they're "literal", not not exactly "constant".
2017-01-12T10:25:43Z aries_liuxueyang: what's the difference?
2017-01-12T10:25:52Z ogamita: They could be read-only (eg. if you compiled and the compiled stored them in the text segment).
2017-01-12T10:26:11Z aries_liuxueyang: ogamita, oh, they are implementation dependent. Thanks. :P
2017-01-12T10:26:13Z ogamita: Or they could be normal cons cells (eg. if you have an interpreter, or at the REPL).
2017-01-12T10:26:54Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: The code for the function will contain a pointer to the literal list.  That pointer remains the same across invocations, but the list that it points to is being modified.
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2017-01-12T10:28:53Z aries_liuxueyang: beach, Thank you so much. got it.
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2017-01-12T10:33:14Z aries_liuxueyang: ogamita, Thank you. :P
2017-01-12T10:34:00Z ogamita: You're welcome!
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2017-01-12T10:47:04Z sjl: is there a built-in type for (and symbol (not keyword))?
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2017-01-12T10:48:12Z flip214_: you could check the package of the symbol.
2017-01-12T10:48:19Z flip214_: but no, no built-in.
2017-01-12T10:49:10Z ogamita: (deftype non-keyword-symbol () '(and symbol (not keyword)))  (typep '#:foo 'non-keyword-symbol) #| --> t |#
2017-01-12T10:50:04Z sjl: ogamita: yeah I have that exact line in my code now, was hoping there was something built-in so I could delete it :)
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2017-01-12T12:04:23Z tetero: I just finished lisp-koans (incl extra credit) which was great fun. Is there anything more like it?
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2017-01-12T12:39:52Z knobo: I'd like something that reads html, and spits out cl-who expression.
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2017-01-12T13:15:37Z ecraven: knobo: there are some html parsers for scheme that produce sxml, would be simple to create cl-who from that
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2017-01-12T13:35:23Z phoe_: Is there any standard-compliant way to access condition slots that is other than its defined accessor?
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2017-01-12T13:35:58Z phoe_: Since #'SLOT-VALUE on conditions is unspecified.
2017-01-12T13:36:08Z ogamita: Yes.
2017-01-12T13:36:27Z ogamita: Yes, it's unspecified.  No, there's no other way.
2017-01-12T13:36:38Z phoe_: ogamita: gotcha. Thanks.
2017-01-12T13:37:19Z flip214_: phoe_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defi_5.htm uses an accessor function
2017-01-12T13:37:26Z ogamita: phoe_: as an optimization, on implementations that base conditions on CLOS, you can use slot-value (eg. #+sbcl), but on other implementations, you cannot.
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2017-01-12T13:45:09Z beach: phoe_: You should not access slots even when it is possible.  Slot names serve a single purpose, namely to make sure a single slot is created for the same names in a hierarchy.
2017-01-12T13:46:22Z beach: phoe_: Accessors are as fast as, or faster than, SLOT-VALUE, and they allow you to change the implementation of the protocol later, so that what used to be a slot is instead computed, without changing client code.
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2017-01-12T13:47:41Z ogamita: You can use:  (loop for accessor in '(acc1 acc2 acc3) do (format t "~20A : ~A~%" accessor (funcall accessor object)))
2017-01-12T13:48:00Z ogamita: (funcall accessor object) instead of (slot-value object slot-name)
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2017-01-12T13:54:47Z phoe_: flip214_, ogamita, beach: thanks.
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2017-01-12T14:43:37Z malice`: I need an ordered set that you can insert items to when iterating over it.
2017-01-12T14:43:47Z malice`: Is there some CL library that implements this kind of data structure?
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2017-01-12T14:44:21Z malice`: I know hash-set, but a) it's unordered, b) it's implemented on hash-table, meaning adding anything to it during iteration is UB
2017-01-12T14:45:11Z loke: malice`: How does a red-black tree sound to you?
2017-01-12T14:45:21Z loke: You can use my implementation:
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2017-01-12T14:45:31Z flip214_: malice`: why not use a list, and build a new list while iterating across the old one?
2017-01-12T14:45:45Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/rbtree.lisp
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2017-01-12T14:46:58Z beach: malice`: You can also insert into a list while traversing it, provided you do it "manually", i.e., not with DOLIST or LOOP... IN/ON.  You can for instance use (LOOP FOR X = LIST THEN (CDR X)...
2017-01-12T14:47:54Z malice`: beach: yes, but I might have a big set
2017-01-12T14:48:02Z beach: So?
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2017-01-12T14:48:22Z malice`: so if I wanted to check for the element in the set, I'd have to traverse the whole list
2017-01-12T14:48:25Z malice`: or am I wrong?
2017-01-12T14:48:26Z flip214_: malice`: you can also remember the previous CONS, and insert elements right before the "current" one.
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2017-01-12T14:49:01Z beach: malice`: I don't know, you haven't told us what kind of operations you want.
2017-01-12T14:50:10Z beach: malice`: If, for instance all the new elements you want to insert are located between the current element and the next, then you have no problem.  But since you haven't specified the details, that's hard to know.
2017-01-12T14:50:34Z malice`: What do you mean by "are located betwqeen the current element and the next"?
2017-01-12T14:50:45Z flip214_: malice`: depending on how many elements you want to insert, and whether they should appear immediately, you could also use a hash-table, and just fetch a list of keys beforehand.
2017-01-12T14:51:18Z malice`: flip214_: yeah, there's small problem with that
2017-01-12T14:51:21Z malice`: let me try to summarize what I need
2017-01-12T14:52:00Z beach: malice`: Suppose you are traversing the list (1 2 ... 46 47 ... 100000) and you are currently looking at (46 47 ... 100000) and you want to insert 46.1 46.2, then you don't need to traverse.
2017-01-12T14:53:10Z malice`: I want an ordered set. I want to be able to iterate over the set, and add items to the set during the iteration(specifically to the very back of the set). The set might be large. I want it to be fast, so I can't use list as a set. The elements might be classess, so hash-table isn't that satisfying.
2017-01-12T14:53:39Z beach: malice`: What does "to the back of a set" mean?
2017-01-12T14:53:40Z malice`: The element should "appear" immediately in the set after adding it(when I add the element during iteration I should be able to iterate over it)
2017-01-12T14:53:58Z malice`: beach: well, it's ordered
2017-01-12T14:54:09Z beach: malice`: Are you saying that the elements that are inserted are always greater than the existing greatest element?
2017-01-12T14:54:11Z malice`: so the back is the place after the last element
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2017-01-12T14:54:51Z beach: Sets don't have a "back" or a "last element".  Do you mean a queue?
2017-01-12T14:55:08Z malice`: No, when I say "ordered set" I mean that they stay in the order that I put them in
2017-01-12T14:55:10Z beach: If so, just keep a pointer to the last CONS cell of the list.
2017-01-12T14:55:18Z malice`: Yes, it kind of remains an union of queue and set
2017-01-12T14:55:45Z beach: malice`: But they won't stay in order if the "last element" is greater than the one you ad "to the back".
2017-01-12T14:56:00Z beach: So is it the case that the elements you add are always greater than the greatest existing element?
2017-01-12T14:56:52Z beach: malice`: Do you see what I am asking?
2017-01-12T14:57:11Z malice`: yeah
2017-01-12T14:57:20Z malice`: well
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2017-01-12T14:57:23Z malice`: I was reading this http://loup-vaillant.fr/tutorials/earley-parsing/recogniser
2017-01-12T14:57:31Z malice`: and I wanted to implement an earley parser myself
2017-01-12T14:57:47Z malice`: And there are "sets" in the sense that you don't store the same partial parse twice
2017-01-12T14:58:03Z malice`: but at the same time they behave like a dynamic array, in the sense that these are ordered
2017-01-12T14:58:08Z beach: But they are not "ordered" in the sense that the domain is totally ordered.
2017-01-12T14:58:22Z malice`: yes, I don't think of the elements as "greater" or "smaller".
2017-01-12T14:58:32Z malice`: I might have used a wrong nomenclature
2017-01-12T14:58:32Z beach: But that is what "ordered set" means.
2017-01-12T14:58:38Z beach: You are talking about a sequence.
2017-01-12T14:58:40Z malice`: Then I'm very sorry for confusion.
2017-01-12T14:58:43Z beach: In particular, of a queue.
2017-01-12T14:58:52Z beach: So just keep a pointer to the last CONS cell.
2017-01-12T14:59:27Z beach: And keep a parallel hash table to determine whether an element is already in the set.
2017-01-12T14:59:37Z beach: So that you don't have to traverse it.
2017-01-12T15:02:55Z beach: malice`: Before you code any more, I recommend you read the paper "Practical Earley Parsing" by John Aycock and Nigel Horspool.
2017-01-12T15:03:15Z beach: malice`: They have good data structures for Earley parsing.
2017-01-12T15:03:18Z malice`: Thank you, beach . I will be sure to read it
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2017-01-12T15:03:29Z malice`: And I'm sorry for introducing the misunderstanding.
2017-01-12T15:03:41Z beach: Don't worry about it.  It happens.
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2017-01-12T15:22:51Z phoe_: I have a list, '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9). What is the shortest way to remove elements 2, 7, 8 from it?
2017-01-12T15:23:17Z phoe_: I want something like (remove-from '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) '(2 7 8) :test #'=).
2017-01-12T15:23:47Z jackdaniel: (remove-if (rcurry #'member '(2 7 8)) *list*)
2017-01-12T15:24:35Z beach: phoe_: Does the list always contain integers?  Is it always ordered?  Are the elements unique? If not, do you want to remove every occurence?
2017-01-12T15:24:40Z beach: occurrence
2017-01-12T15:24:56Z phoe_: beach: yes, always integers. No, not always ordered. Yes, they are unique.
2017-01-12T15:25:14Z beach: clhs set-difference
2017-01-12T15:25:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm
2017-01-12T15:25:42Z phoe_: Yes, that's the one! I knew there was something like this in CLHS but I was looking at UNION.
2017-01-12T15:25:44Z phoe_: Thanks, beach.
2017-01-12T15:25:51Z beach: Sure.
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2017-01-12T16:04:55Z easye: This CI stuff is kind like a big edit/compile/[short debug] loop.  It reintroduces the need for a coffee break.
2017-01-12T16:05:33Z beach: minion: What does CI stand for?
2017-01-12T16:05:33Z minion: Conepate Interparoxysmal
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2017-01-12T16:29:59Z flip214_: beach: "continuous integration"
2017-01-12T16:30:41Z ogamita: beach: Continuous Integration: it's compiler farms that will checkout revisions from repositories, compile them and if successful, run the tests, all automatically.
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2017-01-12T16:31:46Z ogamita: beach: great advantage: each time you commit, you get as feedback compilation or test errors (or sometimes, success!).  Big inconvenient, it usually takes a lot of time to compile and test everything from scratch. Hence the batch nature of CI.
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2017-01-12T16:33:13Z ogamita: Where we are here, the CI are also remote, with the subversion repostories also some other place, so it takes a lot of network time too. Compilations can take 3 hours (depending on the components packaged), and the complete test set takes the whole night (hence "Nightly Builds").
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2017-01-12T16:33:34Z ogamita: So we get a roundtrip of one day, like in the good old times of punched card/printout development. :-)
2017-01-12T16:33:53Z ogamita: Happily, we may also compile and run tests locally, usually it's faster.
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2017-01-12T16:34:50Z ogamita: But there's this final advantage: the CI thus produces releases, which can be shipped to the customer when the tests passed.  So potentially we could ship to customers "anytime".
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2017-01-12T16:37:03Z malice`: the other advantage is that you set an environment to compile in, so (a) you what exactly you need to setup for the code to compile and (b) you make sure that "anyone" could build the code without problem(code does not depend on some of your exotic local settings)
2017-01-12T16:38:19Z ogamita: yes, "reproductible builds".
2017-01-12T16:38:40Z flip214_: Can I have an ITERATE:REPEAT conditionalized?  (IF count (REPEAT count)) gets rejected, "only at toplevel"
2017-01-12T16:39:17Z flip214_: (if message-count (while (plusp (decf message-count))))
2017-01-12T16:39:24Z flip214_: or is there some easier/nicer way?
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2017-01-12T16:42:28Z beach: flip214, ogamita: Got it, thanks!
2017-01-12T16:43:26Z ogamita: flip214_: well, I guess you should test count around the iteration: (if count (iterate (repeat count) …))
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2017-01-12T16:48:42Z flip214_: ogamita: this is just one of several clauses to stop the loop (early).
2017-01-12T16:52:07Z ogamita: flip214_: iterate use (repeat …) at compilation time, so you cannot conditionalize it. Either write or generate two alternative iterate forms, or use while.   (iterate (while (if message-count (plusp (decf message-count)) t)) …)
2017-01-12T16:52:46Z ogamita: assumedly, (iterate (while t) (other termination conidtion) …) can optimize out the (while t).
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2017-01-12T16:53:41Z flip214_: ogamita: thanks, have the IF from above.
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2017-01-12T17:01:30Z circ-user-Yxu9X: Having some trouble understanding why reinitialize-instance won't reset my slots in this example http://paste.lisp.org/display/336430 - at the end I would expect the bar slot to be 42, not 100
2017-01-12T17:02:23Z ogamita: circ-user-Yxu9X: reinitialize-instance will call shared-initialize and since you've not implemented one for this class, nothing is done.
2017-01-12T17:03:25Z ogamita: clhs reinitialize-instance
2017-01-12T17:03:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reinit.htm
2017-01-12T17:04:39Z beach: circ-user-Yxu9X: Since you haven't given any slots to re-initialize (which you would typically do with some :INITARG), then no slots are going to be modified.
2017-01-12T17:06:21Z circ-user-Yxu9X: Ah ok
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2017-01-12T17:14:43Z beach: circ-user-Yxu9X: What you could do is to use SLOT-MAKUNBOUND to make the slot unbound, and then call INITIALIZE-INSTANCE (and not REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE).
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2017-01-12T17:15:58Z beach: circ-user-Yxu9X: Because then, INITIALIZE-INSTANCE will call SHARED-INITIALIZE with T which means "all slots", and SHARED-INITIALIZE will then use the :INITFORM for any slot that is still unbound after all the :INITARGs have been processed (here you don't have any).
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2017-01-12T17:17:15Z ogamita: reinitialize-instance calls shared-initialize too. (They all call shared-initialize).
2017-01-12T17:18:20Z beach: Yes, but not with T.
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2017-01-12T18:18:36Z BusFactor1: I'm trying to read a csv file exported as UTF-8 from Excel with cl-csv on LispWorks and I'm running to the following error:
2017-01-12T18:18:39Z BusFactor1: External format (:UTF-8 :EOL-STYLE :CR) produces characters of type
2017-01-12T18:18:39Z BusFactor1: LISPWORKS:SIMPLE-CHAR, which is not a subtype of the specified element-type
2017-01-12T18:18:40Z BusFactor1: BASE-CHAR.
2017-01-12T18:19:01Z BusFactor1: Any clue on how to get the library to read the csv file properly?
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2017-01-12T18:59:03Z BusFactor1: Got it, just saved as non UTF-8 and set cl-csv:*default-external-format* to :latin-1.
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2017-01-12T19:18:28Z eschatologist: What's this I've seen around about a "System 130" based on CADR? Is there more detail somewhere?
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2017-01-12T19:46:18Z drmeister: In ECL if I set *print-readably* to T    and then (print #(1 2 3)) ->    #A(T (3) (1 2 3))
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2017-01-12T19:51:03Z Xach: that is not good
2017-01-12T19:51:30Z antoszka: jackdaniel: ^
2017-01-12T19:55:40Z sebboh: Suppose a list '("foo" "bar").  How do I return "foo" "bar"  (that's multiple values)
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2017-01-12T19:55:57Z Bike: clhs values-list
2017-01-12T19:55:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vals_l.htm
2017-01-12T19:57:03Z sebboh: Thanks Bike.  Strangely, in SBCL, (values ...) calls (values-list ...) but it must do so with some nuance I missed.
2017-01-12T19:57:18Z sebboh: (values-list '('a 'b)) certainly works.
2017-01-12T19:57:24Z Bike: nuance...?
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2017-01-12T20:13:08Z PuercoPop: (apply values  '("foo" "bar"))
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2017-01-12T20:21:02Z PuercoPop: TIL about values-list
2017-01-12T20:21:04Z PuercoPop: !
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2017-01-12T20:22:02Z Bike: well, on sbcl (defun values (&rest values) (values-list values)) so the apply does the same thing anyway
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2017-01-12T20:41:27Z jasom: the spec even has a note: (values-list list) ==  (apply #'values list)
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2017-01-12T20:42:56Z francogrex: Hi I see that SICL is out ("officially")
2017-01-12T20:43:21Z francogrex: how would one install it? does it run on 32bit?
2017-01-12T20:44:35Z PuercoPop: francogrex: it is more a collection of modules, clone it to your quicklisp/local-projects directory. Also, it is has no official release AFAIK
2017-01-12T20:46:16Z jasom: francogrex: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/RELEASES.md looks pretty not-released to me
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2017-01-12T20:48:20Z francogrex: ah ok. it's just that the README.md does not say "...meant to become..." anymore but rather: "SICL is a new implementation of Common Lisp"
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2017-01-12T20:54:53Z shka_: hey, anybody know when common-qt will get qt5 support?
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2017-01-12T20:56:27Z jasom: PuercoPop: my memory is telling me that the loop implementation in SICL requires the target lisp to have first class global environments; do you know if that's true?
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2017-01-12T21:06:11Z PuercoPop: jasom: no, just requires CLOS (let me check just in case)
2017-01-12T21:08:56Z PuercoPop: jasom: ok, the implementation does (transitively) depend on sicl-enviroment but they don't appear to be necessary. Just pulled in due to sicl-additional-conditions
2017-01-12T21:18:12Z Bike: SICL is not an independent implementation yet, but a lot of the parts work.
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2017-01-12T21:27:24Z francogrex: alright. good. great work. I hope to see it out as independent soon. thanks
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2017-01-12T22:06:23Z kodnin: Why does `((lambda (x) x) 123)` return 123 and `(defun return-lambda () (lambda (x) x)) ... ((return-lambda) 123)` result in an error? I can fix it with `(funcall (return-lambda) 123)`, but why is it needed?
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2017-01-12T22:09:32Z PuercoPop: kodnin: because variables and functions have their own namespace
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2017-01-12T22:11:02Z _death: because ((lambda ...) ...) is a hack
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2017-01-12T22:12:43Z kodnin: PuercoPop How do you mean? I guessed it was related to that, but how exactly. I'm returning a lambda from the return-lambda function.
2017-01-12T22:14:35Z kodnin: PuercoPop In my current understanding that's equivalent to the first form. But from what I see I guess that's not the case.
2017-01-12T22:16:34Z _death: in CL, the car of the function call form is not evaluated.. it is either a name of a function or a lambda expression (the hack)
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2017-01-12T22:18:52Z Xach: it is baked into the evaluator rules
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2017-01-12T22:22:22Z kodnin: Ah, I see. It must be my previous Scheme knowledge that is confusing me.
2017-01-12T22:23:04Z PuercoPop: kodnin: I mean namespace in the first meaning of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#namespace. So if one writes (defun foo (foo) ...). the symbol foo can refer to the function foo or the variable foo. Given that, the evaluation rules of CL mean that car of a form not evalauted but looked up in the function space. In Scheme and other lisps because variables and functions share the same
2017-01-12T22:23:04Z PuercoPop:  namespace (and hence you can't write (define list (list) or use list as an argument name!) you can use can an expression in the 'function position' of a form and it works. This difference is known as lisp-1 vs lisp-2.
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2017-01-12T22:23:20Z kodnin: So funcall is the way to go for that?
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2017-01-12T22:23:39Z Xach: How does the quip go?
2017-01-12T22:23:51Z Xach: Something like "You can learn common lisp in two days if you don't know anything, or three days if you already know scheme"
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2017-01-12T22:24:09Z PuercoPop: yeah funcall or apply depending if you know the arguments you are going to pass to the function when you are writing the code or not
2017-01-12T22:24:45Z _death: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2017-01-12T22:24:46Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
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2017-01-12T22:29:21Z sebboh: If I want to use something like :log4slime from quicklisp in another system, during development, the naive way would be to make the system depend on log4slime.  But what if I don't want to use log4slime at runtime?  How do lispers commonly handle that situation?
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2017-01-12T22:31:05Z kodnin: Ok I knew about Lisp-1 and Lisp-2, but I'm still surprised from time to time. Now I know where to look when the evaluator surprises me again. Thanks!
2017-01-12T22:31:38Z PuercoPop: sebboh ASDF has feature expressions for dependencies. You can push :dev or something into your *features* in your development machine to enable log4slime when developing only
2017-01-12T22:32:45Z sebboh: *features* is a global variable?  like *print-readably* ?
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2017-01-12T22:35:02Z sebboh: forget that last question, it's already defined, this is how all the #+sbcl stuff happens.
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2017-01-12T22:39:03Z PuercoPop: sebboh: yeah, but in ASDF don't use #+ but instead if-feature (https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-grammar.html#if_002dfeature-option). That way if you read the system definition and then push to features without loading ASDF will load the dependency
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2017-01-13T00:05:13Z jasom: PuercoPop: if-feature is still fairly early though; the main purpose is to have it visible in the defsystem tree, not to delay evaluation
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2017-01-13T01:55:11Z akkad hunts for how I previously converted a hash table swapping key with values.
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2017-01-13T02:05:45Z pjb: (let ((new (make-hash-table))) (maphash (lambda (k v) (setf (gethash v new) k)) old))
2017-01-13T02:06:24Z pjb: + return new at the end.
2017-01-13T02:07:27Z cromachina: optionally use push if you want to keep all keys for identical values
2017-01-13T02:07:54Z White_Flame: great read digging into Jak & Daxter's GOAL lisp system: http://www.codersnotes.com/notes/disassembling-jak/
2017-01-13T02:16:24Z akkad: pjb: looks like what I just did. :P
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2017-01-13T04:42:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-13T04:47:07Z akkad: hi beach
2017-01-13T04:48:05Z drmeister: Hey beach.
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2017-01-13T04:52:51Z drmeister: beach - what does this mean from your GF function paper?  "When a class is updated, every generic function that dispatches on this class5 is de- termined, and the call history of each such generic function is searched for entries using the class. These entries are removed and then..."
2017-01-13T04:53:02Z drmeister: Specifically "These entries are removed..."
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2017-01-13T04:54:04Z drmeister: This sounds like entries are removed from call histories of generic functions - but I thought the call histories only grow and never shrink.
2017-01-13T04:54:14Z beach: drmeister: The call history contains the association between the signature (as a list of classes) of some particular call, and the corresponding effective method.
2017-01-13T04:54:50Z beach: drmeister: They shrink when there is an entry that is no longer "correct".
2017-01-13T04:55:42Z drmeister: What's not correct about them?   The methods no longer exist?   Or does the call history store the stamps and the stamps are out of date?
2017-01-13T04:55:49Z beach: So when a class is updated, it gets a new stamp.  Then, calling the generic function with an object having the old stamp must ffail.
2017-01-13T04:55:51Z beach: fail.
2017-01-13T04:56:48Z beach: The way I make it fail is that I remove entries that dispatch on such classes and recompute the discriminating function.
2017-01-13T04:57:25Z drmeister: So a call history entry consists of the list of stamps for each argument?   I assumed it was a list of classes for the arguments.
2017-01-13T04:57:44Z beach: It's the list of classes.
2017-01-13T04:58:19Z beach: I think what you are saying is that the entry does not have to be removed?
2017-01-13T04:58:40Z beach: It would be enough to recompute the discriminating function with new stamps?
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2017-01-13T04:59:19Z drmeister: That's what I was thinking - but I haven't tried implementing it - that's when I usually learn how things really work.
2017-01-13T04:59:45Z beach: I am not quite awake yet, so I need to see how I implemented this stuff and what I wrote in the paper.
2017-01-13T04:59:58Z drmeister: I think I understand how the dispatching works.   I'm fuzzy on the obsolete object updating.
2017-01-13T05:00:07Z drmeister: Ok, fair enough.
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2017-01-13T05:00:34Z beach: You just have to make sure that no generic function contains a discriminating function that will let an obsolete object pass.
2017-01-13T05:01:01Z drmeister: Right now I can generate a discriminator function that has one "miss" state.   I'm puzzling out if that's the way it's supposed to be and what I do when I hit that "miss" state.
2017-01-13T05:01:44Z beach: The first thing you do is you test whether the object you were given is obsolete, and if so, update it and try again.
2017-01-13T05:02:07Z drmeister: And if there are multiple arguments - I have to check them all - correct?
2017-01-13T05:02:20Z beach: If it is not obsolete, you invoke the big machinery: COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS etc.
2017-01-13T05:02:23Z drmeister: Or do they get checked argument by argumentl.
2017-01-13T05:02:28Z drmeister: Yes, that I understand.
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2017-01-13T05:03:08Z beach: Updating objects is not going to be time critical, so you can have a single failure state and then test each argument.
2017-01-13T05:04:00Z beach: You can not know from the failure of one argument whether it is because that object is obsolete or just that you haven't seen the call before.
2017-01-13T05:06:46Z beach: OK, I think I know why I remove the entry (with reservations; I am not quite awake).  I think it is possible for the effective method to change in that case, because the precedence list of the class may have changed.
2017-01-13T05:07:37Z drmeister: I'll have to think on that one.
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2017-01-13T05:08:40Z drmeister: So you take the call history and create a copy with those entries removed just for the purpose of calculating the discriminating function?   Or do you subtract them from the call history altogether?
2017-01-13T05:09:05Z beach: I remove them.
2017-01-13T05:09:33Z beach: But I might do that by creating a copy first, thinking I might use the CAS instruction for thread safety later.
2017-01-13T05:14:30Z beach: drmeister: Why are you concerned about removed entries?
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2017-01-13T05:38:30Z drmeister: Sorry - got called away for a few minutes.   I'm just trying to understand the mechanics of obsolete object update.
2017-01-13T05:39:09Z beach: Oh, that's a different thing altogether.  As far as the generic-function code is concerned, all you need to do is detect the fact.
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2017-01-13T05:40:34Z drmeister: I implemented that optimization that you described, grouping together classes with adjacent stamp values and identical outcomes.
2017-01-13T05:41:37Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/1UF7S88S/complex.dot.png
2017-01-13T05:42:11Z drmeister: This is for this set of methods - they all have the same outcome (:CRASH)
2017-01-13T05:42:14Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ZXdFNGt3/
2017-01-13T05:42:54Z drmeister: The code it generates looks like this:
2017-01-13T05:42:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/O2Zt4Mak/
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2017-01-13T05:43:16Z beach: OK.
2017-01-13T05:43:36Z drmeister: The argument #:ORIG-VARGS30219  is like a CONS list - it's a C-style va_list pointer.
2017-01-13T05:43:50Z beach: drmeister: Do you have a minute for me to try to justify why entries are removed?
2017-01-13T05:43:56Z drmeister: Sure.
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2017-01-13T05:45:08Z beach: Suppose you have a class B that is a subclass of a class A.  Generic function F has been called with an instance of B.  An effective method is created that contains both methods specialized to A and to B, so that CALL-NEXT-METHOD works as advertised.
2017-01-13T05:45:24Z beach: Now, there is a change to B so that A is no longer a super-class.
2017-01-13T05:45:42Z beach: The instance of B is obsolete.
2017-01-13T05:45:54Z beach: But so is the effective method.
2017-01-13T05:46:07Z drmeister: Yes, I see that.
2017-01-13T05:46:23Z beach: So the entry must be removed, because it contains this effective method.
2017-01-13T05:46:35Z beach: OK?
2017-01-13T05:46:57Z drmeister: Ok.  So if you change a class you remove the entries that involve that class from the call-history of every generic function.
2017-01-13T05:47:14Z beach: Yes.
2017-01-13T05:47:31Z drmeister: ...of every generic function that dispatched on that class.
2017-01-13T05:47:31Z beach: That class and all its subclasses.
2017-01-13T05:47:38Z beach: Yes.
2017-01-13T05:47:45Z drmeister: Oh - and all of its subclasses.
2017-01-13T05:47:47Z drmeister: Ok - I see.
2017-01-13T05:47:54Z beach: Because they change as well.
2017-01-13T05:48:13Z beach: This information is kept for a class.
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2017-01-13T05:48:49Z drmeister: There are different ways to change a class - you don't try to behave differently depending on if a person updates a slot name or changes the direct super-class - correct?   Any DEFCLASS causes this removal.
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2017-01-13T05:49:20Z drmeister: It's just too complicated to do that kind of analysis.
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2017-01-13T05:50:13Z burton`: Can somebody help? https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/5nooh4/treeunion_help_with_findingwriting_function/
2017-01-13T05:50:13Z beach: drmeister: I try to optimize my remaining life expectancy, so I try to avoid too many special cases, in particular when my intuition says that there will be no impact on run-time performance.
2017-01-13T05:50:36Z beach: drmeister: I know we are different in this respect.
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2017-01-13T05:50:48Z drmeister: Your statement "This information is kept for a class" - what information is that specifically again?   I'm worried I missed something.
2017-01-13T05:51:06Z Bike: burton`: so it does union by level?
2017-01-13T05:51:26Z beach: drmeister: The MOP has information about the generic functions that have methods that specialize on a particular class.
2017-01-13T05:51:31Z beach: Let me dig it up for you...
2017-01-13T05:51:34Z Bike: and with no concern for ordder, hopefully
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2017-01-13T05:52:57Z beach: mop specializer-direct-methods
2017-01-13T05:52:58Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-methods.html
2017-01-13T05:53:08Z beach: drmeister: ↑
2017-01-13T05:53:56Z Bike: maybe the dependent maintenace protocol could be used for once. imagine
2017-01-13T05:54:18Z beach: drmeister: So you call this generic function and get all the methods, and for each one, you call METHOD-GENERIC-FUNCTION to get to the generic function.
2017-01-13T05:54:53Z beach: Bike: As I recall, that is for purposes other than those that are explicitly documented.
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2017-01-13T06:01:26Z burton`: Bike: yes, union by level
2017-01-13T06:01:51Z burton`: I'm having trouble figuring it out how to write it and it seems like a pretty basic function
2017-01-13T06:02:02Z Bike: then it's not part of common lisp and i've never seen anybody ask for it before, so you'll probably have to write it yourself.
2017-01-13T06:02:10Z Bike: i'm not sure how it would be used, honestly.
2017-01-13T06:02:19Z beach: Nor how it would be defined.
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2017-01-13T06:02:33Z beach: How many children can there be in each node?
2017-01-13T06:02:35Z Bike: probably you map over the lists, collect everything that's an atom, and then append together all the non-atoms and recruse.
2017-01-13T06:02:39Z beach: Does the order between those matter?
2017-01-13T06:02:41Z beach: etc, etc.
2017-01-13T06:02:54Z burton`: i'm looking to build a tree from paths
2017-01-13T06:03:11Z burton`: so i figure turning the paths into trees
2017-01-13T06:03:14Z Bike: if you smash up the order it doesn't seem like much of a tree.
2017-01-13T06:03:16Z burton`: and then doing a tree union would work
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2017-01-13T06:03:43Z burton`: sort of building a tree from the top down
2017-01-13T06:03:58Z burton`: the ordering of the nodes doesn't matter
2017-01-13T06:05:20Z burton`: just that each level of the tree is a union of the same levels of the other tree
2017-01-13T06:05:40Z Bike: i don't really understand, so probably just write it yourself to do whatever you need it to.
2017-01-13T06:05:48Z beach: burton`: So suppose you have (1 (2 (...)) (3 (...))) and (1 (3 (...) (2 (...))))
2017-01-13T06:06:02Z burton`: yes
2017-01-13T06:06:22Z beach: burton`: Do you get (1 (2 3 (...)) (3 2 (...)))
2017-01-13T06:06:33Z burton`: yes
2017-01-13T06:06:35Z beach: Or do you get (1 (2 3 (...)))
2017-01-13T06:06:42Z beach: Why, if the order doesn't matter?
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2017-01-13T06:07:15Z burton`: ok, i guess order does matter
2017-01-13T06:07:16Z beach: (1 (2 (...)) (3 (...))) is the same as (1 (3 (...)) (2 (...)))
2017-01-13T06:07:26Z burton`: or it does in this case
2017-01-13T06:07:36Z beach: burton`: I think step one is for you to specify a bit more what you want.
2017-01-13T06:07:58Z beach: burton`: It is impossible to help, when all we have is an example and an incorrect specification.
2017-01-13T06:08:29Z burton`: (merge-tree `(("usr" ("local" ("bin")))) `(("usr" ("local" ("doc"))))) => (("usr" ("local" ("bin" "doc"))))
2017-01-13T06:08:40Z beach: Another example.
2017-01-13T06:08:42Z burton`: to make it more concrete
2017-01-13T06:08:59Z burton`: i'm trying to merge directory trees
2017-01-13T06:09:11Z burton`: from using split paths into an actual tree
2017-01-13T06:10:25Z beach: In my opinion, you should not use lists here.  I think it would be much clearer if you defined relevant classes.
2017-01-13T06:11:02Z burton`: how would you go about that?
2017-01-13T06:11:11Z beach: clhs defclass
2017-01-13T06:11:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2017-01-13T06:11:29Z burton`: i mean the design
2017-01-13T06:11:35Z burton`: using classes, what would that achieve?
2017-01-13T06:12:01Z Bike: makes things more explicit.
2017-01-13T06:12:17Z beach: burton`: You could then distinguish lists that represent sub-directories and lists that represent, well, lists.
2017-01-13T06:12:27Z Bike: i'm not sure if ("usr" ("local" ("bin"))) is supposed to be /usr/local/bin or /usr//bin or what
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2017-01-13T06:14:02Z beach: burton`: A directory would contain a list of entries.  Each entry could be a CONS of a name and a (sub-)directory.
2017-01-13T06:14:16Z burton`: they're all just directories
2017-01-13T06:14:24Z burton`: Bike: /usr/local/bin
2017-01-13T06:14:57Z burton`: this format of list displays properly inside the tree view in lispworks, that's why i'm using it
2017-01-13T06:15:05Z Bike: and is ("usr" ("local" ("bin" "doc"))) the set of /usr/local/bin and /usr/local/doc, or is it /usr/local/bin/doc ?
2017-01-13T06:15:16Z burton`: it is the set of the two
2017-01-13T06:15:18Z Bike: i mean, i don't need to know, it's just not immediately apparent
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2017-01-13T06:15:39Z burton`: it's an n way tree
2017-01-13T06:16:26Z beach: burton`: So define it properly, and then convert it to whatever LispWorks needs when you display it.
2017-01-13T06:16:31Z Bike: well, yes, it's the list structure version of that that's not obvious.
2017-01-13T06:16:50Z burton`: beach: i'm trying not to go through that step if possible
2017-01-13T06:17:01Z burton`: i'm just wanting to work with the raw lists
2017-01-13T06:17:01Z beach: Whatever.
2017-01-13T06:17:19Z burton`: but it is an option that i haven't figured out yet
2017-01-13T06:17:20Z Bike: if i have /usr/foo and /usr/local/bin, is it ("usr" ("local" ("bin")) "foo") or ("usr" ("foo" "local" ("bin"))) or... etc.
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2017-01-13T06:18:01Z burton`: lots of good questions
2017-01-13T06:18:04Z burton`: thanks for the help
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2017-01-13T09:49:09Z malice`: beach: turns out the tutorial on earley parser that I linked yesterday covers the topics in the paper you mentioned(and refers to it), so I guess it's pretty decent tutorial. Still thanks for the reference!
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2017-01-13T10:46:47Z Hugo: What is lambda?
2017-01-13T10:47:02Z Hugo: And what are the relations of lambda and lisp?
2017-01-13T10:47:50Z easye: Lambda is a secret society of knights that has been in place since the crusades to acheive higher orders of functional programming.
2017-01-13T10:48:22Z Hugo: easye. I dont understad
2017-01-13T10:49:10Z Hugo: What is lambda for gods sake?
2017-01-13T10:49:21Z easye: Hugo:  Sorry making a joke.
2017-01-13T10:49:31Z easye: minion: clhs lambda
2017-01-13T10:49:33Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2017-01-13T10:49:49Z easye: minion: clhs reference for lambda
2017-01-13T10:49:50Z minion: lambda: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2017-01-13T10:49:59Z TMA: clhs lambda
2017-01-13T10:49:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm
2017-01-13T10:50:43Z TMA: Hugo: it is a concept from mathematics
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2017-01-13T10:52:20Z Hugo: TMA, okay
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2017-01-13T10:52:26Z TMA: Hugo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus
2017-01-13T10:52:40Z Hugo: TMA, most concepts of programming r all from math
2017-01-13T10:53:08Z beach: Hugo: In Common Lisp, you can think of lambda as a constructor for functions.
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2017-01-13T10:53:30Z Hugo: beach, what is constructor?
2017-01-13T10:53:41Z beach: A think that constructs other things.
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2017-01-13T10:53:46Z beach: A THING that...
2017-01-13T10:54:29Z Hugo: beach, what?
2017-01-13T10:54:59Z beach: Hugo: So, for instance (lambda (x) (+ x 3)) is an expression that, when evaluated, returns a function that takes one argument and returns the value that argument plus 3.
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2017-01-13T10:56:10Z Hugo: beach, this is complicated :(
2017-01-13T10:56:27Z shka_: Hugo: not that complicated :-)
2017-01-13T10:56:48Z shka_: what beach is trying to say
2017-01-13T10:57:06Z beach: Hugo: Of course, if you lack knowledge in some domain, that domain initially seems complicated.
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2017-01-13T10:57:22Z shka_: is that lambda after evaluation returns function object (to simplify)
2017-01-13T10:57:36Z shka_: you can say that it construct this function object
2017-01-13T10:57:41Z shka_: so it is constructor
2017-01-13T10:57:46Z Hugo: shka_, so instead of returing a value, returing a func
2017-01-13T10:58:00Z shka_: well, more like
2017-01-13T10:58:01Z beach: Hugo: In Common Lisp, functions are values too.
2017-01-13T10:58:03Z shka_: return function as value
2017-01-13T10:58:25Z beach: Hugo: Do you know any programming already?
2017-01-13T10:58:33Z shka_: well, it is what we call "first class functions"
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2017-01-13T11:00:44Z Hugo: beach, yes, but not in Lisp, but basic CPP
2017-01-13T11:00:59Z malice`: Hugo: C++ has lambdas.
2017-01-13T11:01:05Z beach: And constructors.
2017-01-13T11:01:18Z malice`: Since you know basic C++, you know that there are functions, right?
2017-01-13T11:01:56Z malice`: Do you know std::function or so called functors?
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2017-01-13T11:02:23Z beach: malice`: So you are making progress on the Earley parser?
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2017-01-13T11:02:59Z malice`: beach: not yet, I had some things to do yesterday so I couldn't write much, but I hope to write this parser this weekend
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2017-01-13T11:03:19Z beach: malice`: I would be interested in seeing the result once you feel like sharing.
2017-01-13T11:03:23Z malice`: and I'm hoping to release it in some usable form
2017-01-13T11:03:28Z beach: Excellent!
2017-01-13T11:03:38Z malice`: Of course, that's my plan. I have not seen earley parser for CL, hence why I intend to write it.
2017-01-13T11:03:51Z malice`: If I encounter any problems I will be sure to ask here for help :)
2017-01-13T11:04:15Z beach: I have written a few, but you know how it is: a few years down the road, that code looks awful.
2017-01-13T11:04:16Z Hugo: I know functions and parameters
2017-01-13T11:04:47Z malice`: Yeah, time is the thing we all don't have.
2017-01-13T11:04:57Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-01-13T11:05:58Z malice`: Hugo: Imagine a simple function that accepts an int and returns an int. The function will return argument + 3. Something like: int f(int x){return x+3;} .
2017-01-13T11:06:43Z Hugo: malice`, aha yes
2017-01-13T11:06:44Z Hugo: understood
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2017-01-13T11:07:38Z malice`: Hugo: do you know pointers to function?
2017-01-13T11:07:44Z malice`: callbacks?
2017-01-13T11:07:51Z malice`: I don't know what abstraction to use
2017-01-13T11:07:56Z malice`: so that you can understand
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2017-01-13T11:09:36Z malice`: I'll try for now to explain without going into too much detail. Imagine your friend wants to often write a program that asks user for input(some number), and prints the result of getting this number into some function.
2017-01-13T11:09:52Z malice`: For example, one of his program will print your number squared. Other program will print your number - 1, etc.
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2017-01-13T11:10:51Z malice`: He is tired of typing the same code every time and asks you to write a function that will do that for him. Therefore, you write a function that takes a function as an argument. Your function would ask for input, and print the result of calling function with an input.
2017-01-13T11:11:50Z malice`: Something like (pseudo-code): void print_func(function x){ std::cout <<"Please, give me number: "; int x; std::cin >> x; std:: cout << "The result is: " << x << std::endl;}
2017-01-13T11:12:29Z malice`: Now your friend could (almost, because in C++ it's slightly more complicated, syntax-wise) just call "print_func(square)", assuming he has a function called "square".
2017-01-13T11:12:46Z shka_: "slightly" :D
2017-01-13T11:12:51Z malice`: :)
2017-01-13T11:13:29Z malice`: Notice, that your friend would have to use an unique name each time he wants to pass a function. This essentialy means that he would have to sometimes use stupid names, and pollute his namespace, just so he can pass the function.
2017-01-13T11:14:09Z malice`: That's where lambda comes in. You see, everything interesting in your function happens in the body. Therefore, you could just pass the body, right? Except you also need to tell what arguments you need. But with that, you're good to go - no need for name.
2017-01-13T11:14:17Z malice`: That's what lambda is - a function, without a name.
2017-01-13T11:15:02Z malice`: So instead of passing a function name, your friend could do something like this(this syntax is fictional): print_func( (int x){return x*x;});
2017-01-13T11:15:10Z malice`: Hugo: I tried my best to explain this in simple terms
2017-01-13T11:18:00Z Hugo: Ok
2017-01-13T11:19:40Z malice`: Hugo: Did it help? Is there something you don't understand?
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2017-01-13T11:21:09Z Hugo: malice`, thanks, I understand it now
2017-01-13T11:21:34Z malice`: Great! Glad to help.
2017-01-13T11:22:20Z malice`: In Common Lisp, it looks like what beach showed you. In C++ it's much harder thanks to certain limitations and lambdas aren't as powerful there as they are in CL.
2017-01-13T11:22:25Z malice`: Plus, in C++ syntax is much worse.
2017-01-13T11:23:14Z Hugo: malice`, is CL the best Lisp dialect (better than racket and scheme)?
2017-01-13T11:23:22Z malice`: No
2017-01-13T11:23:42Z malice`: None of the dialects is best. Use the one you like the most. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
2017-01-13T11:24:03Z shka_: Hugo: cl is niece because every implementation has reasonable debugger
2017-01-13T11:24:06Z TMA: malice`: add [] in front of the (int x){return x*x;} and you have a valid c++11 lambda: [](int x){return x*x;}
2017-01-13T11:24:08Z shka_: and stuff
2017-01-13T11:24:26Z shka_: standard is also reasonable
2017-01-13T11:24:38Z malice`: TMA: yes, but that [] doesn't make sense unless you know what it does and I wanted to make it as simple as possible(and similar to function definition from C++)
2017-01-13T11:24:50Z shka_: at the very least it is stable and mostly well designed
2017-01-13T11:24:59Z malice`: I believe new standard would be nice
2017-01-13T11:25:06Z malice`: No major changes, but it could be improved
2017-01-13T11:25:09Z shka_: sure
2017-01-13T11:25:27Z shka_: but things that already are in cl, are mostly fine
2017-01-13T11:25:46Z malice`: well, some :P
2017-01-13T11:25:52Z malice`: I don't like inconsistency in few cases
2017-01-13T11:25:54Z shka_: there are what-the-fucks here and there
2017-01-13T11:25:54Z malice`: and some other things
2017-01-13T11:25:57Z malice`: but they don't matter that much
2017-01-13T11:26:23Z malice`: (defhygenic) could be added
2017-01-13T11:26:44Z shka_: overall, i don't think there is a lot to complain about
2017-01-13T11:26:45Z malice`: maybe some threads specification
2017-01-13T11:26:52Z malice`: yes, there isn't.
2017-01-13T11:27:04Z malice`: Most of the stuff you could complain about you don't use.
2017-01-13T11:27:06Z shka_: malice`: envs should be in standard
2017-01-13T11:27:20Z shka_: and other things from cltl
2017-01-13T11:28:10Z shka_: a lot of work anyway
2017-01-13T11:28:56Z Hugo: Excuse me, but what is macro and macro system?
2017-01-13T11:29:00Z TMA: an ASSEMBLE counterpart to DISASSEMBLE perhaps?
2017-01-13T11:29:41Z shka_: TMA: that would be compile? :D
2017-01-13T11:29:48Z malice`: Hugo: It's a syntax in CL that allows you to write macros that generate code.
2017-01-13T11:29:52Z TMA: Hugo: if you evaluate ordinary code (+ 1 a) you take the value of 1 and the value of a and perform some operation
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2017-01-13T11:30:19Z malice`: You have preprocessor macros in C++(e.g. #include or #define), but C++ has very "stupid" macros. CL macros are advanced and can do great things, but it's harder to understand
2017-01-13T11:30:31Z TMA: Hugo: in a macro, you take the expression themselves and produce other code, that gets evaluated instead
2017-01-13T11:30:42Z malice`: Generally, macro is a piece of code that produces other code.
2017-01-13T11:31:39Z shka_: well, more or less
2017-01-13T11:31:57Z john_g_: malice`, i was googling how lisp macros relate to c++ templates, but i can only find superficial statements about sharing concepts, how far do they overlap?
2017-01-13T11:32:03Z shka_: to really explain how it works, we would have to describe evaluation times
2017-01-13T11:32:24Z shka_: john_g_: not same thing at all
2017-01-13T11:32:34Z shka_: not even remotly
2017-01-13T11:33:12Z TMA: shka_: first, DISASSEMBLE should produce some implementation defined structured form (perhaps when :format 'whatever would be supplied).
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2017-01-13T11:33:44Z shka_: john_g_: lisp macros operate on ASTs, templates operate on types
2017-01-13T11:33:59Z shka_: you can hack macros to produce types by generating code (not fun)
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2017-01-13T11:34:13Z shka_: you can hack templates to generate code (not fun)
2017-01-13T11:34:20Z malice`: One thing to note is that C++ is typed. This has a big impact the code. In C++, you can have a template with the same name, but different definitions for certain types. In CL, you'd have to use single macro and dispatch on what you got.
2017-01-13T11:34:41Z malice`: This said, as shka_ noted, CL macros can produce any valid Lisp code, and C++ templates produce either functions or classess.
2017-01-13T11:34:47Z malice`: classes
2017-01-13T11:34:48Z TMA: shka_: the output would be suitable for input to ASSEMBLE that would produce a function equal (in some sense of equal) to the one given to DISASSEMBLE in the first case
2017-01-13T11:35:13Z shka_: TMA: ok, cool -- if you actually enjoy reading assembly
2017-01-13T11:35:24Z shka_: honestly, i'm terrible at that
2017-01-13T11:36:24Z malice`: john_g_: so I'd say that macros are superset of C++ templates, but you have to remember that C++ has static typing, which makes it a bit different
2017-01-13T11:36:31Z shka_: if we could just extend env in lisp with new category of lexical objects, we could reimplement templates in cl
2017-01-13T11:36:50Z malice`: I don't guarantee that I'm 100% sure though. I use macros in CL differently than templates in C++
2017-01-13T11:37:17Z malice`: One of the reasons is that in CL if you write a function, you can accept any type, and if you write it generic enough, you are good to go
2017-01-13T11:37:26Z malice`: (e.g. #'+ <- accepts bignums, ints, fixnums, etc.)
2017-01-13T11:37:32Z malice`: where in C++ you use templates to do that
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2017-01-13T11:39:55Z TMA: malice`: in a sense, lisp macros and c++ templates are "just" some code, that runs during compilation; they both result in some new code being created, the workings are very different though
2017-01-13T11:41:08Z malice`: TMA: you can't create a template like macro in CL
2017-01-13T11:41:24Z malice`: e.g. with-macros; you can't do that in CL with templates. You can't accept block of code as an argument.
2017-01-13T11:41:39Z malice`: with-file("name", var) {something;}
2017-01-13T11:41:49Z malice`: you have RAII for that, however.
2017-01-13T11:42:14Z shka_: well, you in theory you can do everything with templates
2017-01-13T11:42:17Z john_g_: interesting, thanks for the elaboration
2017-01-13T11:42:33Z john_g_: however, what is an AST?
2017-01-13T11:42:35Z shka_: in practice, it is so complicated and error prone that it is not worthy
2017-01-13T11:42:41Z shka_: john_g_: abstract syntax tree
2017-01-13T11:42:46Z john_g_: ah
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2017-01-13T11:44:46Z malice`: john_g_: a representation of code in form of a tree
2017-01-13T11:44:54Z malice`: compiler uses that to compile the code
2017-01-13T11:45:06Z malice`: shka_: you mean you can do what I just showed?
2017-01-13T11:45:10Z malice`: I'm quite sceptic.
2017-01-13T11:45:54Z malice`: afaik templates are turing-complete, so you can write 'any' program using templates, but they don't allow you to extend the language in such way as macros do
2017-01-13T11:46:47Z shka_: well not that
2017-01-13T11:46:58Z shka_: because of semantics
2017-01-13T11:47:49Z malice`: then I agree with you
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2017-01-13T11:49:16Z shka_: i meant that actually templates are turing complete
2017-01-13T11:49:34Z shka_: ofc, it does not mean that any sane person would want to use those way
2017-01-13T11:50:14Z malice`: yes, I thought that's what you had in mind
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2017-01-13T12:08:48Z baltazza: is there a way to set *read-base* on a per file basis for asdf?
2017-01-13T12:09:44Z jackdaniel: baltazza: yes, check out asdf extension file-local-variables
2017-01-13T12:09:50Z jackdaniel: asdf-flv I think
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2017-01-13T12:12:21Z baltazza: the documentation for it seems quite lacking ...
2017-01-13T12:14:30Z jackdaniel: see appendix here: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/9/verna.11.cdr2.pdf
2017-01-13T12:15:23Z baltazza: and i don't see what this provides over just (eval-when (...) (setf *read-base* ...))
2017-01-13T12:15:59Z baltazza: what i was more looking for was some magic for .asd where i can say :read-base 8. -- or something
2017-01-13T12:16:25Z baltazza: asdf-flv requires modifying the actual source code .. and for that, i might just as well stick with eval-when clauses
2017-01-13T12:16:32Z jackdaniel: if you do (let ((*read-base* *read-base*)) (load "file")) then if file will modify *read-base*, then it won't influence things outside its own scope
2017-01-13T12:17:25Z baltazza: that is something i can either guarante or fix on my side though ...
2017-01-13T12:17:37Z jackdaniel: except the linked cdr (which isn't implemented anywhere yet) there is no other magic possibility for that. these functions may be called in the asd file, because it is unfortunately normal source file
2017-01-13T12:20:31Z baltazza: mm.. then i'll just use eval-when hacks.
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2017-01-13T13:55:48Z PuercoPop: jasom: Isn't if-feature meant for when *features* are modified between loading the system definition and loading the system?
2017-01-13T13:58:44Z jackdaniel: if-feature in asdf is meant for a reader
2017-01-13T13:58:53Z jackdaniel: rationale was for yet-not-developed archive-op
2017-01-13T13:59:22Z jackdaniel: you want to archive all files, but since asd file is read, read-time condition would hide some components
2017-01-13T13:59:38Z jackdaniel: s/archive-op/archive-op and such/
2017-01-13T13:59:55Z jackdaniel: and the resulting archive would miss important component
2017-01-13T14:00:25Z jackdaniel: so it is a "right" equivalent of saying #+sbcl (:file "bam")
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2017-01-13T14:03:34Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: not only archive-op would need that. In the case I'm mentioning above you would run a problem if you don't load a decadency but then when loading a file because the feature is now present, you'd evaluate the code that needed that dependency that the system definition wasn't aware of because it was not read when the system definition was loaded
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2017-01-13T14:04:43Z jackdaniel: yes, hence the "and such"
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2017-01-13T14:18:13Z FareTower: PuercoPop: decadency!
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2017-01-13T14:18:32Z oleo: 10 dancy
2017-01-13T14:19:39Z FareTower: there's a bug in asdf when a class is only defined when a feature is set, and is used in a component that is also only needed with this feature, but asdf errors anyway because it checks the class before the feature.
2017-01-13T14:20:21Z FareTower: I'm worried about the health of rpgoldman and his tenure as asdf maintainer :-(
2017-01-13T14:20:43Z oleo: heya Fare
2017-01-13T14:20:48Z FareTower: hola
2017-01-13T14:21:13Z oleo: how are you ?
2017-01-13T14:22:41Z Xach: FareTower: can you tell me what the failures in http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-01-12/failure-report/lisp-interface-library.html mean?
2017-01-13T14:23:00Z PuercoPop: FareTower: it appears to me that he is (justifiably) stressed about maintaining ASDF. It is thankless work basically.
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2017-01-13T14:30:50Z FareTower: Xach: oh, damn, it means I failed to make fare-utils compatible with old versions of UIOP.
2017-01-13T14:31:00Z FareTower: let me fix that...
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2017-01-13T14:34:29Z FareTower: which version of ASDF are you using? I need to debug with the same...
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2017-01-13T14:35:56Z jackdaniel: it's at the very top of a report
2017-01-13T14:36:45Z FareTower: weird, I can't reproduce the bug with asdf 3.1.5
2017-01-13T14:37:32Z FareTower checks that he did push his changes to lil and fare-utils... and I did
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2017-01-13T14:38:17Z FareTower: are you sharing the fasl cache between an old and new version of asdf?
2017-01-13T14:39:20Z Xach: The fasl cache is getting wiped out every time.
2017-01-13T14:39:22Z FareTower: OK, yes, I can reproduce in that case
2017-01-13T14:39:48Z FareTower: I compile fare-utils with asdf 3.2.0, and it reexports asdf's style-warn
2017-01-13T14:40:03Z FareTower: then I try to load fare-utils with asdf 3.1.5, and it complains that uiop doesn't have style-warn
2017-01-13T14:40:45Z FareTower: Hum. If the fasl cache is getting wiped... I'm not sure.
2017-01-13T14:41:50Z FareTower: are you sharing the fasl cache between loading uiop 3.2.0 on top of asdf 3.1.5 and loading lil without loading uiop 3.2.0 on top of asdf 3.1.5 ?
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2017-01-13T14:44:33Z FareTower considers removing style-warn altogether from fare-utils...
2017-01-13T14:45:29Z FareTower: (ideally, all of fare-utils should be removed or moved to alexandria and/or some other library, but oh well)
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2017-01-13T14:50:56Z FareTower pushed a new fare-utils without style-warn
2017-01-13T14:51:12Z FareTower: Xach: can you try with that new fare-utils? :-/
2017-01-13T14:52:34Z FareTower: (sorry for the inconvenience)
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2017-01-13T15:11:22Z Xach: The new fare-utils seems to have fixed things.
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2017-01-13T15:35:11Z Xach:  /win 3
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2017-01-13T15:40:38Z aries_liuxueyang: hey, I got a macro problem here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336476 I define a simple macro to replace lambda but confused what that doesn't work. Anyone can help me?
2017-01-13T15:41:50Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: The first position of a compound expression is not evaluated like the other positions.
2017-01-13T15:42:00Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: So it is not macroexpanded either.
2017-01-13T15:43:19Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2017-01-13T15:43:19Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2017-01-13T15:43:33Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: ↑
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2017-01-13T15:44:03Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: "If the car of the compound form is not a symbol, then that car must be a lambda expression, in which case the compound form is a lambda form."
2017-01-13T15:44:41Z aries_liuxueyang: beach, specbot  seems interesting.. I will read that. Thank you so much!
2017-01-13T15:45:05Z beach: Anytime!
2017-01-13T15:45:18Z beach: Yes, specbot is exactly for situations like this.
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2017-01-13T16:03:50Z aries_liuxueyang: beach, Does it mean that the first position of a compound form will not be evaluated or macroexpanded?
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2017-01-13T16:05:54Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: Yes, that's what I said above:
2017-01-13T16:05:58Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: The first position of a compound expression is not evaluated like the other positions.
2017-01-13T16:06:02Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: So it is not macroexpanded either.
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2017-01-13T16:08:39Z aries_liuxueyang: if it's a lambda forms. Didn't the repl have to evaluate the function object to apply it?
2017-01-13T16:08:52Z aries_liuxueyang: s/Didn't/Doesn't/
2017-01-13T16:09:09Z beach: No.  It treats it specially.
2017-01-13T16:09:57Z aries_liuxueyang: ok, got it. Thank you. :P
2017-01-13T16:10:04Z beach: Sure.
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2017-01-13T17:25:00Z varjag: anyone here used fset?
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2017-01-13T17:52:59Z loke: varjag: Yes
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2017-01-13T17:54:38Z varjag: loke: i'm new to it, wonder if there's a good way to make a seq out of bag elements sorted by multiplicity
2017-01-13T17:55:32Z loke: varjag: Not sure. It's been a while since I used it.
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2017-01-13T21:47:55Z sjl: Xach: I'm trying to understand what's going on with http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-01-13/failure-report/beast.html#beast-test but I'm not really sure how your build/load process works
2017-01-13T21:48:17Z sjl: Xach: if I have separate foo and foo-test systems, should foo-test depend-on foo?
2017-01-13T21:48:41Z Xach: sjl: I fetch the latest of every project, then make a big index of each .asd file, and then for each system file, I try, in an independent process, to load that system.
2017-01-13T21:48:54Z Xach: sjl: yes, definitely.
2017-01-13T21:49:50Z Xach: This tends to find a lot of implicit dependencies. e.g. because slime always loads systems x, y, and z, you can omit them without making your system fail to build. but it will fail in the quicklisp build process.
2017-01-13T21:50:09Z sjl: okay.  I usually run the tests by saying :in-order-to ((asdf:test-op (asdf:test-op :beast-test)) in the main system
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2017-01-13T21:50:16Z sjl: and then (asdf:test-op 'beast)
2017-01-13T21:50:31Z sjl: which means the main system would always be loaded to begin with
2017-01-13T21:52:04Z sjl: or test-system or whatever it's called
2017-01-13T21:52:40Z sjl: Xach: one more question: does quicklisp just always pull the latest from the master branch as its source?
2017-01-13T21:53:01Z sjl: i.e. if I want to push some in-development-but-not-ready-to-release code I need to make a development branch
2017-01-13T21:53:07Z Xach: sjl: No. It has a lot of options about what to pull. But absent any special requests, that is what it does.
2017-01-13T21:53:24Z Xach: It can pull the latest tag, or the latest release, or from a particular branch, or from an URL
2017-01-13T21:53:37Z sjl: does "special request" mean "ask you in IRC"?
2017-01-13T21:53:39Z sjl: heh
2017-01-13T21:53:49Z phoe: I have a question about restarts.
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2017-01-13T21:54:26Z phoe: I have a function call, let's say (PRINT (FOO)). Inside (FOO), a condition is signaled, a handler handles it and invokes a restart.
2017-01-13T21:55:01Z Xach: sjl: Means "make it part of the github issue asking it to be added"
2017-01-13T21:55:01Z loke: phoe: Is there a RESTART-CASE inside of FOO?
2017-01-13T21:55:08Z phoe: loke: I don't know yet.
2017-01-13T21:55:17Z sjl: ah okay, it's manual though
2017-01-13T21:55:26Z phoe: Basically - I want to return a value from (FOO) despite the condition being signaled.
2017-01-13T21:55:27Z sjl: I'll keep that in mind
2017-01-13T21:55:29Z Xach: sjl: often people say "please add my project from https://github.com/blah/blahblah.git" and in that case, it fetches from master.
2017-01-13T21:55:50Z Xach: sometimes people say "pull from the quicklisp branch" or "use the latest github release" or something like that.
2017-01-13T21:56:05Z pjb: phoe: then you need to establish a restart in foo.
2017-01-13T21:56:07Z phoe: If I return a value from the restart, will this value be returned from (FOO) as well?
2017-01-13T21:56:10Z sjl: ok cool, I might use that in the future, thanks
2017-01-13T21:56:13Z pjb: yes.
2017-01-13T21:56:14Z loke: phoe: (print (handler-case (foo) (error () nil)))
2017-01-13T21:56:42Z phoe: loke: so NIL will be returned if an ERROR is signaled, yes?
2017-01-13T21:56:46Z loke: phoe: yes
2017-01-13T21:56:50Z phoe: I see.
2017-01-13T21:57:07Z phoe: This is one of the best things about Lisp that I'm learning.
2017-01-13T21:57:11Z loke: phoe: For restarts, the value will be returned from the RESTART-CASE that provided the restart.
2017-01-13T21:57:19Z phoe: loke: I see.
2017-01-13T21:57:27Z Xach: The time is ripe for more automation, more predictable releases, continuous autmoatic builds with author notification, etc. But I'm working on pgp stuff right now.
2017-01-13T21:57:38Z loke: phoe: If you know Java, then RESTART-CASE is like try/catch
2017-01-13T21:57:38Z pjb: (defun foo () (with-simple-restart (if (zerop (random 20)) (error "bad") (return-from foo 42))) #|default value:|# 33)
2017-01-13T21:58:07Z pjb: (defun foo () (with-simple-restart (return-default-value "Return a default value") (if (zerop (random 20)) (error "bad") (return-from foo 42))) #|default value:|# 33)
2017-01-13T21:58:10Z phoe: loke: I see.
2017-01-13T21:59:10Z pjb: phoe: java has nothing in common with restarts. try/catch is equivalent to handler-case.
2017-01-13T21:59:31Z loke: pjb: Yes, sorry.
2017-01-13T21:59:37Z phoe: Oh, right.
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2017-01-13T21:59:40Z loke: I meant to say HANDLER-CASE, not RESTART-CASE
2017-01-13T22:00:00Z loke: Argh
2017-01-13T22:00:19Z pjb: phoe: notice that if you want a "retry", you will have to loop explicitely in foo.
2017-01-13T22:00:28Z phoe: Loop?
2017-01-13T22:00:54Z loke: phoe: Preferably.
2017-01-13T22:01:09Z pjb: (defun foo () (loop (with-simple-restart (retry "Retry") (with-simple-restart (return-default-value "Return a default value") (if (zerop (random 20)) (error "bad") (return-from foo 42))))) #|default value:|# 33)
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2017-01-13T22:01:19Z pjb: s/20/2/
2017-01-13T22:02:08Z pjb: oops,
2017-01-13T22:02:30Z pjb: (defun foo () (loop (with-simple-restart (retry "Retry") (with-simple-restart (return-default-value "Return a default value") (if (zerop (random 2)) (error "bad") (return-from foo 42))) (return-from foo  #|default value:|# 33))))
2017-01-13T22:02:31Z loke much prefers RESTART-CASE in favour of WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART. In particular in the case where there are more than one restart.
2017-01-13T22:02:37Z pjb: Yes.
2017-01-13T22:03:10Z pjb: case with no error:
2017-01-13T22:03:11Z pjb: cl-user> (foo)
2017-01-13T22:03:11Z pjb: 42
2017-01-13T22:03:11Z pjb:  
2017-01-13T22:03:19Z pjb: case with one error, retry:
2017-01-13T22:03:20Z pjb: cl-user> (foo)
2017-01-13T22:03:20Z pjb: Invoking restart: Retry
2017-01-13T22:03:24Z pjb: 42
2017-01-13T22:03:24Z pjb:  
2017-01-13T22:03:29Z loke: phoe: I think you might really want to read this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html
2017-01-13T22:03:35Z pjb: case with two errors, retry and default:
2017-01-13T22:03:36Z pjb: cl-user> (foo)
2017-01-13T22:03:39Z pjb: Invoking restart: Retry
2017-01-13T22:03:39Z pjb: Invoking restart: Return a default value
2017-01-13T22:03:42Z pjb: 33
2017-01-13T22:03:45Z pjb:  
2017-01-13T22:04:52Z pjb: Now, the funny thing is when you write handler-bind handler to select a restart!  The handler-bind can be either outside or inside the restart binding form!
2017-01-13T22:05:38Z phoe: loke: I am, I was.
2017-01-13T22:06:01Z loke: All right. I'm heading to bed now.
2017-01-13T22:06:04Z loke: See you guys :-)
2017-01-13T22:06:12Z pjb: Good night!
2017-01-13T22:06:23Z phoe: What about HANDLER-BIND though?
2017-01-13T22:07:31Z pjb: you can use compute-restarts and invoke-restart in a handler.
2017-01-13T22:08:15Z pjb: A handler-bind that is outside of the restart-case could still select one of those restats, if the error occurs during the restart-case expression.
2017-01-13T22:08:42Z pjb: this is good for general error handling.
2017-01-13T22:09:13Z phoe: If I have (handler-bind ((error (lambda (e) (bar e)))) (foo)).
2017-01-13T22:09:31Z pjb: On the other hand, a handler-bind (or handler-case) inside the restart-case is able to select the restart more precisely, in function of its body form, and assuming more knowledge about the available restarts.
2017-01-13T22:09:55Z phoe: Then, if I have (error) inside FOO, then (BAR E) will be called in its place. Am I right?
2017-01-13T22:10:33Z pjb:  (handler-bind ((error (let ((ntry 3)) (lambda (e) (invoke-restart (if (plusp (decf ntry)) 'retry 'return-default-value)))))) (foo))
2017-01-13T22:10:39Z pjb: automatic error handling.
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2017-01-13T22:11:26Z pjb: phoe: you can call BAR, but you couldn't "inject" a result for foo from the handler, unless you go thru global variables or some other channel.
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2017-01-13T22:12:38Z phoe: By "inject", do you mean that I cannot achieve something like (signal 'error) returning 3 if (bar e) returns 3?
2017-01-13T22:12:49Z pjb: exactly.
2017-01-13T22:12:56Z phoe: In other words, what happens to the return value of (bar e)?
2017-01-13T22:13:20Z pjb: But restarts take arguments, so you can (invoke-restart 'return-value (bar))
2017-01-13T22:13:34Z pjb: in error handlers it's ignored.
2017-01-13T22:14:00Z phoe: Is RETURN-VALUE a default restart?
2017-01-13T22:14:18Z pjb: nope.
2017-01-13T22:14:42Z pjb: brb
2017-01-13T22:14:54Z phoe: I see.
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2017-01-13T22:34:24Z libreman: What kind of test is used with ~case~?
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2017-01-13T22:35:52Z mood: libreman: eql
2017-01-13T22:36:00Z libreman: Thanks mood
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2017-01-13T22:50:49Z malice: Good evening
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2017-01-13T23:04:27Z clintm: In cl-rabbit, do any of you happen to know how to set the message prefetch count?
2017-01-13T23:04:45Z clintm: Was looking for something like 'qos' in other libs, but to no avail.
2017-01-13T23:05:10Z malice: When I was asking in here about making a hash-table with keys being custom classes, someone suggested their red-black tree implementation. Is this person in here? I forgot to save the link
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2017-01-13T23:17:46Z clintm: malice: http://ircbrowse.net/browse/lisp?q=malice
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2017-01-13T23:24:45Z malice: Thanks!
2017-01-13T23:25:17Z clintm: any time!
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2017-01-14T01:35:09Z lisp_in_2017_hah: hello XD
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2017-01-14T01:35:53Z lisp_in_2017_hah: what's the state of clim ?
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2017-01-14T01:40:45Z akkad: stateless
2017-01-14T01:41:03Z akkad: lisp_in_2017_hah: see #clim
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2017-01-14T02:45:18Z FareTower: Hi.
2017-01-14T02:46:01Z FareTower: philip-jose is utterly bitrotten. I started updating it to work with a recent iolib, but it also depends on things that have bitrotten in fare-utils. Sigh.
2017-01-14T02:46:37Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-01-13/failure-report/fare-scripts.html#fare-scripts
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2017-01-14T02:49:23Z FareTower: Xach: I pushed a fix for that already
2017-01-14T02:49:39Z FareTower: Xach: I would remove philip-jose from Quicklisp
2017-01-14T02:50:37Z FareTower: the green threads in local-task are worth saving somehow, but would ideally have to be ported to a better continuation library than arnesi
2017-01-14T02:53:46Z FareTower: alternatively, I can resurrect an old binary-heap from fare-utils, or finish porting it to lil, or have philip-jose use a different library for that.
2017-01-14T02:56:21Z FareTower: but lacking a user base, what's the point? (with a user base, the bitrot would have been discovered and fixed immediately)
2017-01-14T02:57:02Z FareTower: still, parallel tasks, rendez-vous, race-to-finish, etc., are fun.
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2017-01-14T03:09:04Z FareTower: Xach: thanks for Quicklisp, BTW!
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2017-01-14T04:10:41Z akkad: trying to generalize a function, the top one is specific to sourceport, but the second, I'm trying to rewrite to get passed a given field and = to it's value of slot https://gist.github.com/cdd33e91dd2df774c4bc3c68d1a3a7d4
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2017-01-14T05:27:43Z haxmeister: good evening
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2017-01-14T05:58:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-01-14T05:58:30Z beach: Hello haxmeister.
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2017-01-14T06:09:37Z haxmeister:  hello
2017-01-14T06:09:45Z haxmeister: hello beach
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2017-01-14T09:08:02Z lisp99: what library people use for common data-structures?
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2017-01-14T09:17:52Z beach: lisp99: I don't think you will find a single library for all common data structures.
2017-01-14T09:18:05Z beach: lisp99: Do you have any particular use case in mind?
2017-01-14T09:18:25Z lisp99: rbtree and queues for now
2017-01-14T09:21:36Z beach: loke has a red-black tree implementation.
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2017-01-14T09:22:12Z beach: A queue is so simple that most people just write it from scratch.
2017-01-14T09:22:51Z beach: What are the use cases you have in mind for those data structures?
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2017-01-14T09:23:38Z lisp99: rbtree for a db strcture
2017-01-14T09:24:24Z lisp99: i was gonna just write the queue myself but i realized i need a rbtree so if i could use some common library for them
2017-01-14T09:26:29Z beach: For a queue, you can also use my Flexichain.  It is a bit more economical in terms of space than a list would be: https://common-lisp.net/project/flexichain/
2017-01-14T09:27:42Z beach: You can install flexichain using Quicklisp.
2017-01-14T09:28:24Z beach: What operations do you think you will need on the tree?
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2017-01-14T09:30:38Z lisp99: insert remove search
2017-01-14T09:30:50Z beach: Search with a key?
2017-01-14T09:30:55Z lisp99: yes
2017-01-14T09:31:02Z beach: Then you are better off using a hash table.
2017-01-14T09:33:06Z jackdaniel:  (which doesn't require any library, because are part of the standard)
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2017-01-14T09:36:48Z lisp99: it will work for now
2017-01-14T09:38:01Z jackdaniel: Xach: I'm backporting some pull requests from 7max/log4cl to sharplispers – should I push to master, or make a pull request?
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2017-01-14T09:42:16Z beach: There are way fewer applications for trees than the literature suggests.
2017-01-14T09:44:05Z beach: Only when the element order is required are trees useful.  For instance if there is a requirement to traverse the elements in the order imposed by the domain.  Or when the tree is used to implement an editable sequence.
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2017-01-14T10:00:28Z jnknknk: .
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2017-01-14T11:19:40Z phoe: Afternoon.
2017-01-14T11:20:12Z shka_: phoe: hi
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2017-01-14T12:00:48Z Xach: jackdaniel: just push, I'd say. willing to defer to someone with more deeply felt opinion.
2017-01-14T12:02:43Z jackdaniel: I've made a PR, if nobody will blame for for breaking things till tomorrow I'll merge it :)
2017-01-14T12:03:07Z Xach: ou cannot escape the swift and unyielding blame
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2017-01-14T12:03:45Z jackdaniel: :)
2017-01-14T12:04:13Z shifty: what is the "#+SBCL" and "#-SBCL" syntax called?
2017-01-14T12:04:42Z jackdaniel: read-time conditionalization facility
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2017-01-14T12:04:58Z jackdaniel: I simply call it read-time condition
2017-01-14T12:06:23Z shifty: jackdaniel: thank you - I couldn't find any documentation without knowing what to call it :-)
2017-01-14T12:06:40Z jackdaniel: shifty: check out l1sp.org
2017-01-14T12:06:52Z jackdaniel: it finds even unsearchable quirks like "#+"
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2017-01-14T12:12:55Z jurov: is there fulltext search like this? like, when i query for "proper list" to get all mentions from clhs
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2017-01-14T12:13:45Z jurov: and before someone says "have you donated?" - does clhs license allow setting up a mirror with this functionality added?
2017-01-14T12:20:16Z beach: What you can legally do with the Common Lisp HyperSpec is fairly limited.
2017-01-14T12:20:52Z beach: But it was created from a public document, and there is a project to create a similar, but more modern looking document from the same public document.
2017-01-14T12:21:06Z beach: You may want to talk to phoe about that project.
2017-01-14T12:24:36Z Xach: There are multiple projects, I hope one comes to fruition.
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2017-01-14T12:25:03Z beach: Right.
2017-01-14T12:25:46Z Xach: I would like to have a bound, printed hyperspec someday.
2017-01-14T12:25:49Z Xach: sorry, spec.
2017-01-14T12:25:55Z Xach: not the hyperspec.
2017-01-14T12:26:51Z beach: That's a fairly easy one.  You can just build it from the TeX sources.
2017-01-14T12:26:56Z beach: I was able to do that.
2017-01-14T12:27:38Z Xach: Good to know
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2017-01-14T12:37:51Z beach: I would personally like a web version that can be annotated.
2017-01-14T12:38:36Z jackdaniel: I think there was such a project, not sure about the state
2017-01-14T12:38:44Z jackdaniel: let me look in my messy bookmarks ;)
2017-01-14T12:41:09Z jackdaniel: I have found only this, not sure if its the same thing I remember – it doesn't mention html nor annotations in readme
2017-01-14T12:41:12Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/LispLang/ansi-spec
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2017-01-14T12:47:00Z beach: Oh, right.  By eudoxia.
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2017-01-14T13:10:02Z phoe: beach: aaah.
2017-01-14T13:10:08Z phoe: you've reminded me of it.
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2017-01-14T13:10:39Z phoe: Well, the ELS is coming up. I might want to spend some more time on it.
2017-01-14T13:10:50Z MrLawrence is now known as IPXSam
2017-01-14T13:13:14Z phoe: The issue is - even when I have time now, I spend it on writing Lisp and not working on redoing its documentation.
2017-01-14T13:14:41Z smokeink: http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4260
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2017-01-14T13:15:24Z smokeink: has anyone tried literate programming with lisp? what tools do you recommend
2017-01-14T13:16:32Z easye: smokeink: Emacs with org-mode Babel is not a bad place to start.
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2017-01-14T13:28:11Z shka_: smokeink: i kinda like codex
2017-01-14T13:28:20Z shka_: it is sort of like sphinx
2017-01-14T13:28:24Z shka_: not as good
2017-01-14T13:28:31Z shka_: but pretty ok
2017-01-14T13:36:00Z smokeink: shka_: do you have a link to codex webpage/repo ?
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2017-01-14T13:36:24Z smokeink: oh i found it http://commondoc.github.io/codex/
2017-01-14T13:36:29Z shka_: yes
2017-01-14T13:36:36Z shka_: it is not that perfect
2017-01-14T13:36:59Z shka_: but result html is attractive
2017-01-14T13:37:44Z smokeink: this vid inspired me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av0PQDVTP4A
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2017-01-14T14:07:23Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-01-14T14:11:19Z smokeink: http://mainesail.umcs.maine.edu/pubs/Papers/2010/ilc2010.pdf
2017-01-14T14:16:03Z drmeister: Where does it say in the CLHS what happens when you do (make-array '(0 0 0))  - an array with zero elements?
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2017-01-14T14:20:08Z jurov: leo-editor is good multilanguage litprog tool
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2017-01-14T14:27:20Z shka_: jurov: it is actual editor or emacs extension?
2017-01-14T14:28:35Z shka_: never mind
2017-01-14T14:28:40Z shka_: i found it
2017-01-14T14:29:00Z pjb: drmeister: what wouldn't happen? You just create an array with 0 elements, with rank 3, with dimensions 0 0 0, and with element type T.
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2017-01-14T14:29:31Z jurov: there's life outside emacs :)
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2017-01-14T14:30:07Z pjb: drmeister: valid array dimension is also defined to be a fixnum >=0
2017-01-14T14:30:13Z shka_: jurov: yeah, bu emacs has slime
2017-01-14T14:31:23Z pjb: drmeister: also, make-array specifies a list for dimensions, not a non-empty-list, so (make-array '()) is good do.
2017-01-14T14:31:32Z pjb: (rank 0, no dimensions).
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2017-01-14T14:31:41Z pjb: (make-array '()) #| --> #0A0 |#
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2017-01-14T14:31:49Z pjb: (make-array '(0 0 0)) #| --> #3A() |#
2017-01-14T14:32:50Z pjb: drmeister: see also 15.1.1 Array Elements
2017-01-14T14:33:26Z pjb: notably 15.1.1.2 Array Dimensions and 15.1.1.3 Array Rank
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2017-01-14T14:55:22Z Xach: so much jackdaniel email this morning
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2017-01-14T14:56:38Z drmeister: pjb: Thank you.
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2017-01-14T14:57:04Z loke: Xach: I wish I had lots of Jackdaliens in the morning.
2017-01-14T14:58:39Z jackdaniel: :)
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2017-01-14T15:26:16Z knobo: varjag: are you there?
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2017-01-14T15:49:18Z lisp99: what's geographic distribution of lisp programmers? :p
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2017-01-14T15:52:05Z IPXSam: Hi guys why do you have to type (funcall #'+ 1 2 3) like that>
2017-01-14T15:52:09Z IPXSam: *?
2017-01-14T15:52:19Z IPXSam: the #'function is confusing
2017-01-14T15:52:56Z axion: #' is a function designator.
2017-01-14T15:53:12Z lisp99: IPXSam: it's because of lisp-2
2017-01-14T15:53:43Z jackdaniel: IPXSam: you may write (funcall (function '+) 1 2 3)
2017-01-14T15:53:52Z jackdaniel: or (defparameter + #'+)
2017-01-14T15:53:55Z jackdaniel: (funcall + 1 2 3)
2017-01-14T15:54:03Z IPXSam: I see, thanks
2017-01-14T15:54:11Z axion: You could just as well, type (funcall '+ ...), but #' will have precedence in local scope.
2017-01-14T15:54:31Z mood: jackdaniel: you should leave out the ' in your (function ...) example
2017-01-14T15:54:34Z mood: :)
2017-01-14T15:54:52Z jackdaniel: mood: right, my bad :)
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2017-01-14T15:58:29Z axion: a simple example of the difference: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/6411c8ff2d758195918befbd0a1bb0cd
2017-01-14T16:01:46Z beach: lisp99: When I spent a year in Auckland, New Zealand, there were about 4 Lisp programmers within a radius of a 3 hour flight.
2017-01-14T16:03:59Z beach: lisp99: There are quite a few in Europe, as the success of ELS shows.  There are regularly close to 100 participants.  Some participants come from elsewhere, though (Japan, America, etc)
2017-01-14T16:05:17Z beach: lisp99: The last ILC (International Lisp Conference) was held in Montreal and had 35 participants.
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2017-01-14T16:07:23Z lisp99: yeah i see a ja_lisp subreddit; i suppose there are quite a few from japan
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2017-01-14T16:10:28Z circ-user-QcIM5: why does some code I see use #:foo in it's defpackage form rather than :foo or "FOO"?
2017-01-14T16:11:17Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: A few reasons...
2017-01-14T16:11:18Z knobo: Could I get some help with this: I do  (ql:quickload :cl-jpeg) and then: (jpeg::allocate-buffer 1920 1080 3) and then sbcl crashes.
2017-01-14T16:11:21Z circ-user-QcIM5: I don't really understand the "introduces an uninterned symbol" bit in the CLHS
2017-01-14T16:11:47Z knobo: or maybe not..
2017-01-14T16:12:01Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: First, #:foo is less sensitive to how the reader handles case.
2017-01-14T16:12:31Z knobo: I have to do some more debugging.
2017-01-14T16:12:54Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: Second, it looks strange to use "FOO" and then prefix "foo:" on symbols.
2017-01-14T16:12:58Z circ-user-QcIM5: knobo: It seems to work fine in SBCL on Linux for me
2017-01-14T16:13:25Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: Third, #:foo does not create unnecessary symbols in the keyword package, the way :foo does.
2017-01-14T16:13:50Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: An uninterned symbol is a symbol without a package.
2017-01-14T16:14:25Z circ-user-QcIM5: Ah ok. That explains why I was seeing completions for keywords corresponding to my function names
2017-01-14T16:14:40Z knobo: circ-user-QcIM5: yes, it was not the problem after all. I have to debug more.
2017-01-14T16:15:14Z circ-user-QcIM5: So it seems better to use #: in defpackage in general?
2017-01-14T16:15:39Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: I always do it, but not everybody shares my obsessions. :)
2017-01-14T16:16:35Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: I also use that prefix for exported symbols in a package definition.
2017-01-14T16:17:20Z IPXSam: Whats the difference between (list i dont know whats happening) and '(i dont know whats happening) ??
2017-01-14T16:17:39Z IPXSam: the first one, if any of the symbols are ubnound, it fails
2017-01-14T16:17:47Z IPXSam: but in the second one, with the quote that's not happening
2017-01-14T16:17:48Z beach: IPXSam: The first one is a function call.
2017-01-14T16:18:10Z beach: IPXSam: ... so the arguments are evaluated before the function is called.
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2017-01-14T16:18:49Z beach: IPXSam: The second one is short for (quote (i dont know whats happening)), and QUOTE is a special operator that returns its argument unevaluated.
2017-01-14T16:18:58Z beach: clhs quote
2017-01-14T16:18:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm
2017-01-14T16:19:00Z beach: clhs list
2017-01-14T16:19:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm
2017-01-14T16:19:17Z IPXSam: right, right okay thats the important bit about the arguments not being evaluated, so how does it exactly return them?
2017-01-14T16:19:47Z beach: For QUOTE?  It takes a single argument.
2017-01-14T16:20:08Z sjl: IPXSam: I wrote something about this kind of stuff a while ago you may or may not find useful: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/06/symbolic-computation/
2017-01-14T16:20:10Z IPXSam: because say I do (butlast '(some random list)) they will be evaluated by butlast or is not the argument return unevaluted but some other property of the object?
2017-01-14T16:20:32Z beach: IPXSam: QUOTE is not a function.  The compiler treats it specially.
2017-01-14T16:20:58Z beach: IPXSam: Your sentence is incomprehensible.
2017-01-14T16:21:34Z beach: IPXSam: In (butlast '(some random list)), BUTLAST is a function.
2017-01-14T16:21:45Z beach: So the argument will be evaluated before the function is called.
2017-01-14T16:21:56Z beach: The argument is (quote (some random list)).
2017-01-14T16:21:59Z IPXSam: beach, the arguments I give to quote within ( and ) are not evaluated. So I wonder what is actually being fed to butlast
2017-01-14T16:22:18Z beach: So now we have to evaluate (quote (some random list)).
2017-01-14T16:22:51Z beach: QUOTE is a special operator so it has its own evaluation rule.  For QUOTE the rule is to return the argument unevaluated, i.e. (some random list).
2017-01-14T16:23:13Z beach: This (now evaluated) argument is then passed to BUTLAST.
2017-01-14T16:23:47Z beach: BUTLAST does its work and returns a new list, which is like its argument except that the last CONS cell has been removed.
2017-01-14T16:24:44Z beach: IPXSam: Do you understand?
2017-01-14T16:25:30Z beach: IPXSam: What is between ( and ) in the QUOTE expression are not arguments to QUOTE.
2017-01-14T16:25:57Z beach: IPXSam: There is a single argument to QUOTE and that is the list (some random list); a list with three symbols in it.
2017-01-14T16:26:16Z IPXSam: I get it now. Thank you.
2017-01-14T16:26:22Z beach: Anytime!
2017-01-14T16:26:52Z phoe: A function that accepts three arguments is like (MY-FUNCTION FOO BAR BAZ).
2017-01-14T16:27:55Z phoe: (QUOTE (SOME RANDOM LIST)) has one argument there: a list which has three elements in it.
2017-01-14T16:28:30Z beach: I think that is what I said, or at least I meant to. :)
2017-01-14T16:28:47Z phoe: beach: yes. :D
2017-01-14T16:29:13Z phoe: Basically, (QUOTE (SOME RANDOM LIST)) and (QUOTE SOME RANDOM LIST) are two very different things.
2017-01-14T16:29:29Z circ-user-QcIM5: beach: thanks for your explanation of #:
2017-01-14T16:29:31Z phoe: (And it's not just the fact that the latter will give you a compilation error.)
2017-01-14T16:31:13Z beach: circ-user-QcIM5: Sure.
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2017-01-14T16:39:16Z IPXSam: Guys if I have a two dimensional vector how can I get the first row? aref only extracts elements.
2017-01-14T16:44:16Z phoe: IPXSam: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12327237/common-lisp-how-to-access-a-row-of-a-certain-multi-dimension-array
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2017-01-14T16:46:02Z IPXSam: Makes me not want to use vectors lol
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2017-01-14T17:07:26Z lisp99: fixnums have 30 bits on a 32-bit platform for sbcl?
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2017-01-14T17:08:08Z lisp99: ah nvm it's 29 bits
2017-01-14T17:10:38Z beach: IPXSam: A vector is by definition a one-dimensional array.
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2017-01-14T17:38:59Z knobo: Opticl does not load jpgs with cmyk color space :(
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2017-01-14T17:58:54Z diogofranco: I had to write this lib, so I made some tests and docs and opened it up: https://github.com/diogoalexandrefranco/cl-cache-tables
2017-01-14T17:59:08Z shka_: diogofranco: thanks!
2017-01-14T17:59:52Z diogofranco: :) hopefully is useful to someone.
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2017-01-14T18:20:43Z lisp99: where do you envision the usage of timer based caching?
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2017-01-14T18:42:00Z diogofranco: lisp99: My usecase is caching a bunch of json specs that belong to a different system. I just retrieve the original when it expires and there is no need for cache invalidation, its fine for my usecase
2017-01-14T18:42:14Z diogofranco: not sure how common it is though. but redis is used a lot in this way
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2017-01-14T18:56:45Z beach: diogofranco: If you want to avoid that the docstring lines get indented, you can use a trick that I have started using, namely #.(format nil "bla bla..")  When you have a format string, you can finish a line with ~@ and the leading whitespace on the following line is ignored.
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2017-01-14T19:19:03Z IPXSam is now known as MrLawrence
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2017-01-14T19:21:58Z MrLawrence: so if I define  (defun sum (&rest set) (let ((total 0)) (dolist (x set) (setq total (+ x total))) total)) and later do (sum 1.2 1.2 1.2) I get 3.6000001
2017-01-14T19:22:07Z MrLawrence: What's going on?
2017-01-14T19:22:26Z pjb: MrLawrence: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html   and   What Every Programmer Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://floating-point-gui.de/
2017-01-14T19:23:07Z pjb: MrLawrence: also: (defun sum (&rest args) (reduce (function +) args))
2017-01-14T19:23:18Z pjb: MrLawrence: also: (defun sum (&rest args) (apply  (function +) args))
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2017-01-14T19:23:40Z pjb: Here we can use apply since the number of argument will be below call-arguments-limit, given they come from &rest.
2017-01-14T19:23:41Z MrLawrence: I was just testing my basic lisp skills
2017-01-14T19:23:47Z pjb: yep.
2017-01-14T19:24:03Z pjb: (setq total (+ x total)) --> (incf total x)
2017-01-14T19:24:34Z pjb: and you can use the third expression in dolist for the result: (let ((total 0)) (dolist (x set total) …))
2017-01-14T19:24:56Z MrLawrence: I see
2017-01-14T19:25:00Z pjb: MrLawrence: this is why Common Lisp provides ratio: (sum 12/10 12/10 12/10) #| --> 18/5 |#
2017-01-14T19:25:13Z pjb: MrLawrence: (round (sum 12/10 12/10 12/10))
2017-01-14T19:25:15Z pjb: MrLawrence: (round (sum 12/10 12/10 12/10)) #| --> 4 ; -2/5 |#
2017-01-14T19:25:24Z pjb: MrLawrence: (float (sum 12/10 12/10 12/10) 0.0) #| --> 3.6 |#
2017-01-14T19:26:15Z pjb: Notice that the error obtained above comes from the float-point sums.  Here the sum is exact 18/5 and the conversion to float is therefore more precise!
2017-01-14T19:27:16Z MrLawrence: I learned floating point as base and mantissa
2017-01-14T19:27:27Z MrLawrence: I don't know if that's fundamentally different from what this article is explaining
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2017-01-14T19:28:16Z pjb: MrLawrence: this is not fundamentally different, but you need to be conscious of the consequences of base and mantissa.
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2017-01-14T19:46:35Z lisp99: how do i see in-memory representation of heap objects for sbcl?
2017-01-14T19:47:18Z phoe: pjb: http://i.imgur.com/k1EeRAy.png
2017-01-14T19:47:31Z pjb: :-)
2017-01-14T19:51:22Z pjb: MrLawrence: we spend years in school studying ℕ, ℤ, ℝ and ℂ, but no time is spent on floating point numbers, or "manual" numbers we use to compute by hand.  Math teachers could certainly spend some time on floating-points, showing how strange a set of number it is, and how it fails to have the same good properties of the other sets of numbers, how "approximate" it is.
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2017-01-14T21:25:50Z _death: MrLawrence: if you still want to use floating point, you can use Kahan summation for better accuracy
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2017-01-14T22:02:06Z Marak: can anyone assist? i am trying to pass code into a lisp program as a command line argument. very close, but i keep getting my code wrapped in an additional (), which is causing eval to fail.
2017-01-14T22:02:23Z Marak: (print (format nil "~a" (cdr *args*))), end up outputting: "((format t \"Hello, World\"))", where i want: "(format t \"Hello, World\")"
2017-01-14T22:02:26Z Marak: i have no idea how to lisp
2017-01-14T22:03:11Z Marak: being run with:  clisp ./examples/services/echo/echo.lisp -c "(format t \"Hello, World\")"
2017-01-14T22:03:29Z Bike: (cdr '(1 2)) is (2) instead of 2. same here.
2017-01-14T22:04:38Z Marak: how do I fix Bike?
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2017-01-14T22:05:24Z Bike: use second instead of cdr. or something else, depending on what you're doing
2017-01-14T22:05:47Z Bike: you should probably learn how to lisp enough to work that out, it's very basic
2017-01-14T22:06:16Z Marak: Bike: confirmed, `second` worked perfectly, thanks
2017-01-14T22:06:40Z Marak: just learning the syntax and keywords. know how to program a bit, but not very well at all in lisp ( yet )
2017-01-14T22:06:45Z Marak: thank you very much!
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2017-01-14T22:16:53Z Marak: i'm writing some software that will take a JSON hash table and generate CommonLisp code so that the data can be used in clisp further down the pipe. is a clisp hash table a good data structure for this? http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/hashes.html
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2017-01-14T22:18:36Z Bike: a hash table sounds like a fine thing to use as a hash table, sure
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2017-01-14T22:22:54Z Marak: :-)
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2017-01-14T22:31:05Z Marak: okay, i got another one. i'm passing in this string to *args* : "(format t \"Hello there\")(format t \"Hello bear\")" and when i run: (print (read-from-string (format nil "~a" (second *args*)))), it's outputting: (FORMAT T "Hello there"), ignoring the second statement. is that expected?
2017-01-14T22:31:53Z Bike: remember how i said you should learn enough to work this out?
2017-01-14T22:32:01Z Bike: clhs second
2017-01-14T22:32:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_firstc.htm
2017-01-14T22:32:13Z Bike: you can see here what the function does
2017-01-14T22:32:23Z Marak: i'm doing my best, came here for help...sorry if i'm bothering. i have like 8 tabs open with googled clisp tuts
2017-01-14T22:32:33Z Bike: minion: pcl
2017-01-14T22:32:33Z minion: pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2017-01-14T22:33:02Z Bike: it sounds like you could use an organized book rather than disconnected tutorials
2017-01-14T22:33:49Z Marak: i lost my copy of land of lisp book, i should try to find a pdf
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2017-01-14T22:34:15Z Marak: i'm very close to what i need done here. :-)
2017-01-14T22:34:47Z Bike: well, to sum up, 'second' returns the second element of a list
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2017-01-14T22:35:04Z Bike: not the second and the third, which i guess you want
2017-01-14T22:35:05Z Marak: thats what i figured, but my second element of the list should just be that string of code
2017-01-14T22:35:34Z Marak: my intent is to have it all in one element, its come from -c command line argument, which value happens to be second in *args*
2017-01-14T22:35:42Z Bike: based on your first question, *args* is a list (something (format t "Hello there") (format t "Hello bear"))
2017-01-14T22:36:08Z Marak: yes, first item is "-c", second item is now,  "(format t \"Hello there\")(format t \"Hello bear\")"
2017-01-14T22:36:17Z Bike: apparently not.
2017-01-14T22:36:46Z Marak: i can confirm the string value is correct before i attempt to read-from-string
2017-01-14T22:36:55Z Bike: *args* is a list, not a string. i don't know how you're converting your string into a list.
2017-01-14T22:37:27Z Marak: i'm trying to run: (eval (read-from-string (format nil "~a" (second *args*)))), where second *args* is a clisp code as text
2017-01-14T22:37:33Z Marak: it works for one line scripts, but not more
2017-01-14T22:37:43Z Marak: its cutting off multiple statements, even if i put them on the same line?
2017-01-14T22:38:15Z Bike: okay, well, i know why that's happening. but first, why are you doing (read-from-string (format nil "~a" ...))?
2017-01-14T22:39:18Z Marak: because i'm a noob?
2017-01-14T22:39:30Z Bike: but how did you arrive at that
2017-01-14T22:39:47Z Marak: (print (read-from-string "(format t \"Hello there\")(format t \"Hello bear\")")) is ultimately what is trying to be run
2017-01-14T22:40:04Z Marak: no idea Bike, really.
2017-01-14T22:40:11Z Marak: assume its wrong
2017-01-14T22:40:50Z pjb: Marak: have you printed *args* at least once?
2017-01-14T22:41:06Z Bike: well, it's like saying (read-from-string (write-to-string foo)), ie it ought to be just foo. (though it's not because ~a doesn't try to produce readable output)
2017-01-14T22:41:42Z d4ryus: Marak: i guess its because READ-FROM-STRING just reads a single object, ur strings contains 2
2017-01-14T22:41:43Z pjb: Also, the argument following -c is not always the second argument.
2017-01-14T22:41:44Z Marak: Bike: that makes sense, could you suggest a better way of doing it?
2017-01-14T22:41:59Z Bike: (eval (second *args*))
2017-01-14T22:41:59Z Marak: i just got a pdf of land of lisp. i think i left my last hard-copy in india
2017-01-14T22:42:04Z Marak: trying now
2017-01-14T22:42:20Z Bike: but if (second *args*) is ((format ...) (format ...)) that won't work
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2017-01-14T22:42:59Z pjb: In any case, you have to test this case explicitely.
2017-01-14T22:43:44Z Marak: (eval (second *args*)) doesnt work though, no output when second *args* is: "(format t \"Hello tare\")(format t \"Hello bear\")"
2017-01-14T22:44:16Z Bike: wait, so it's a string.
2017-01-14T22:44:29Z Marak: (eval "(format t \"Hello tare\")(format t \"Hello bear\")"), don't work either
2017-01-14T22:44:38Z Marak: yes, its code as string coming in from STDIN
2017-01-14T22:44:42Z Bike: it ought to "work" in the sense that it returns that string without writing anything
2017-01-14T22:44:50Z Bike: okay, so you do need to read it first then.
2017-01-14T22:44:57Z pjb: Marak: what is *args*?
2017-01-14T22:44:58Z Bike: as d4ryus said, READ only reads one object
2017-01-14T22:45:19Z Marak: pjb: *args* is command line arguments scope on my system for clisp
2017-01-14T22:45:23Z Bike: so (read-from-string "(format ...) (format ...)") will just be the first (format ...)
2017-01-14T22:45:30Z pjb: Marak: Yes, but what type is it?
2017-01-14T22:45:38Z Marak: ahh! that makes sense. pjb how do i check?
2017-01-14T22:45:45Z pjb: *args*
2017-01-14T22:45:50Z Bike: from the sounds of it it's a list of strings
2017-01-14T22:45:51Z pjb: just print it and look.
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2017-01-14T22:46:00Z pjb: … as Bike says.
2017-01-14T22:46:14Z Bike: spoiler!
2017-01-14T22:46:23Z pjb: this is because it's a list of strings that you don't need (format nil "~A" …)
2017-01-14T22:46:32Z pjb: this is because it's a list of strings that you need read-from-string.
2017-01-14T22:46:54Z pjb: Now if you want to test for superfluous text after the first expression, you should test the second result of read-from-string.
2017-01-14T22:46:58Z pjb: clhs read-from-string
2017-01-14T22:46:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm
2017-01-14T22:47:27Z pjb: and there's also this point that being a list of command line arguments, the argument that follows -c is not necessarily the second one.
2017-01-14T22:47:29Z Marak: $ clisp ./examples/services/echo/test.clisp -c "(format t \"Hello tare\")(format t \"Hello bear\")"  ("-c" "(format t \"Hello tare\")(format t \"Hello bear\")")
2017-01-14T22:47:49Z Marak: pjb: it is in my case, i have control of the parent process
2017-01-14T22:47:56Z pjb: Nonetheless.
2017-01-14T22:48:28Z Marak: i need to be able to pass in a big string of clisp code into a clisp script from the command line and eval it. that is the goal here
2017-01-14T22:48:42Z Marak: so -c value could contain a lot of statements, unknown amount
2017-01-14T22:49:12Z pjb: (loop with args := *args* while args do (cond ((string= "-c" (first args)) (pop args) (if args (process (pop args)) (error "Missing expression after -c"))) (t (error "Unknown option ~A" (first args)))))
2017-01-14T22:49:19Z Bike: sounds like you need to loop then.
2017-01-14T22:49:39Z pjb: Marak: this is up to you: you may specify that -c is followed by a single sexp or by multiple sexps.
2017-01-14T22:49:40Z Marak: pjb: i will try that...i barely understand it
2017-01-14T22:49:46Z pjb: Marak: you can always use progn.
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2017-01-14T22:50:32Z Marak: *** - EVAL: undefined function PROCESS
2017-01-14T22:50:53Z pjb: Yes now you implement the function process that will process your expression arguments. (pop args)
2017-01-14T22:54:13Z Marak: pjb: i dont think that works. its ending up trying to run this: (eval "(format t \"Hello tare\")(format t \"Hello bear\")"), which still has no output
2017-01-14T22:54:32Z pjb: Now, in process you have to read the sexps that are in the string argument.
2017-01-14T22:54:33Z d4ryus: Marak: are u looking for something like this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/336594 (iam new to lisp too, so that code might be rly bad :/ )
2017-01-14T22:54:58Z pjb: Marak: for this check the 2nd result of read-from-string (and consider the :start argument)
2017-01-14T22:55:04Z circ-user-QcIM5: In SBCL, is it possible to get the memory address of a lisp object (fixnums, strings, arrays, etc.)? I'm hoping to poke around using gdb
2017-01-14T22:55:30Z circ-user-QcIM5: I think I'm looking for a SAP, but not sure
2017-01-14T22:56:19Z d4ryus: Marak: to evaluate ur *args* string you could do (mapcar #'eval (read-objects-from-string *args*))
2017-01-14T22:56:48Z Marak: d4ryus: yeah?
2017-01-14T22:57:16Z pjb: That said if you read everything before evaluating everything, then it will fail if you load something or define packages.
2017-01-14T22:57:56Z pjb: To be able to do: foo -c '(load "thingy-package.lisp") (thingy-package:foo)' # you will need to implement a REPL.
2017-01-14T22:58:20Z Marak: clisp doesn't have a command line argument to pass in code as string?
2017-01-14T22:58:27Z pjb: Of course it has.
2017-01-14T22:58:33Z pjb: man clisp
2017-01-14T22:59:03Z Marak: i checked that 3times before, couldn't find the flag/
2017-01-14T22:59:17Z Marak:  -x expressions ?
2017-01-14T22:59:21Z pjb: yes.
2017-01-14T22:59:35Z Marak: okay, let me go hide for a bit and try this. thank you all for the noob help, its much appreciated
2017-01-14T23:00:12Z pjb:  clisp -q -norc -x '(+ 1 2)  (* 3 4)'
2017-01-14T23:00:14Z Marak: to give some context, i'm trying to add common lisp as a language supported by the Functions as a Service platform. its all open-source.
2017-01-14T23:00:28Z Marak: https://github.com/stackvana/microcule is the core app server, https://hook.io is the platform
2017-01-14T23:00:40Z Marak: we already support 13+ languages
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2017-01-14T23:01:49Z circ-user-QcIM5: Marak: clisp the only implementation you're considering?
2017-01-14T23:02:09Z phoe: Marak: exactly, I wouldn't advise CLISP in that case. SBCL would do better here, IMO.
2017-01-14T23:02:21Z pjb: No, clisp is the best choice for CLI interactive stuff.
2017-01-14T23:02:29Z Marak: circ-user-QcIM5: it was the first lisp i tried. i'm very open to suggestion, as i'm not writing any production lisp at the time
2017-01-14T23:02:47Z Marak: this system support streaming HTTP, would be nice to have lisp used for stream transformations...
2017-01-14T23:02:50Z pjb: sbcl would have to compile stuff, is slower to load, etc.
2017-01-14T23:02:50Z Marak: thats how the Node.js version works
2017-01-14T23:03:04Z Marak: this need to be interrupted in real-time, not compiled
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2017-01-14T23:03:25Z Marak: we are executing code in real-time in response to incoming HTTP requests. can do fairly low latency responses.
2017-01-14T23:03:29Z Marak: kinda like a CGI
2017-01-14T23:04:28Z circ-user-QcIM5: Marak: most of the lisps include a compiler and the interpreter works by using that
2017-01-14T23:04:51Z pjb: But not clisp, which is why it will be faster.
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2017-01-14T23:05:23Z circ-user-QcIM5: Yeah clisp is probably a good first choice
2017-01-14T23:05:32Z Marak: the intention is that developers wouldn't only be uploading a single function, or small block of code per service. i think clisp is the way to go. i'm going to experiment more and see what i can do
2017-01-14T23:06:05Z Marak: if i can get lisp working for hook.io, i'll definitely let you all know. would in theory be a quick and easy way to turn lisp code into a webhook on a unique url
2017-01-14T23:06:20Z Marak: without needing to start a server
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2017-01-14T23:15:21Z phoe: Marak: how much code do you expect to be stored on a single webhook? what are your memory and time execution limits?
2017-01-14T23:15:33Z phoe: s/time execution/execution time/
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2017-01-14T23:21:45Z Marak: phoe: the only limitation we have for size now, is the operating systems limit for size of command line arguments. default timeout value for all services is 10 seconds. paid customers are able to increase this value at will.
2017-01-14T23:22:07Z Marak: phoe: most people behave themselves. we also have a bit of rate-limiting code for totals and concurrency
2017-01-14T23:22:56Z Marak: we run untrusted user code in an elastic worker pool in a fairly isolated env
2017-01-14T23:25:15Z phoe: Marak: for that limit, you could store the body of Lisp code in a file and feed it to the Lisp executable.
2017-01-14T23:25:32Z Marak: yeah, the worker env doesn't allow users to write to disk
2017-01-14T23:25:54Z Marak: so we can't write the file anywhere. need to use -x flag, or maybe a bash redirect
2017-01-14T23:26:09Z Marak: or just pass in code as command line argument and parse in script, probably -x flag is right
2017-01-14T23:27:16Z Marak: i already have the source code in a buffer in memory before it ever hits lisp. i can easily check the size before save for the users. not really concerned about total script size really
2017-01-14T23:27:20Z Marak: hasn't come up  yet as an issue
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2017-01-14T23:43:52Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I just ran the first physics simulation using the C++ Bullet engine from Clasp Common Lisp.
2017-01-14T23:44:04Z drmeister: Did someone here point me at that library several months ago?
2017-01-14T23:44:11Z phoe: drmeister: <3
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2017-01-14T23:45:40Z phoe: And it's night time for me. See you guys!
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2017-01-15T00:02:58Z pseudonymous: Can someone enlighten me ? (http://paste.ubuntu.com/23801345/) I seem to have successfully switched to another package, but defun forms don't seem to be affected
2017-01-15T00:03:57Z pjb: pseudonymous: what is the purpose of packages?
2017-01-15T00:04:39Z pseudonymous: namespacing/isolation
2017-01-15T00:04:56Z pjb: Yes. How does they do it, in lisp?
2017-01-15T00:05:46Z pjb: If you want, what is used to name things in lisp?
2017-01-15T00:05:51Z pseudonymous: Actually ? Not a clue. I do know that I can intern symbols and specify a package, but not really why this is so important.
2017-01-15T00:06:27Z pjb: Right.  The current package, bound to *package* is used as default package by the INTERN function.  This is the only function that uses it.
2017-01-15T00:06:47Z pjb: This INTERN function is called by READ, to read symbols that are not qualified.
2017-01-15T00:07:09Z pjb: Now, this is the important thing to understand.  *PACKAGE* is only used by INTERN, which is only used by READ.
2017-01-15T00:07:20Z pjb: So now the question, is WHEN is *PACKAGE* used?
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2017-01-15T00:09:14Z pjb: The idea, is to make it easy to answer those questions.  Where did I fail?
2017-01-15T00:09:26Z pseudonymous: I'm guessing we'll be talking about the exact order of things, read, macro-expansion, eval ?
2017-01-15T00:09:32Z pjb: Yes.
2017-01-15T00:09:48Z pjb: *PACKAGE* is used WHEN we READ an expression.
2017-01-15T00:10:02Z pseudonymous: I have a vague grasp of the theory, though admittedly so vague that more "complex" scenarios like these, I fail to apply it.
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2017-01-15T00:10:15Z pjb: pseudonymous: now you have to consider when things are read.
2017-01-15T00:10:28Z pjb: For example, when is the macro WITH-PKG2 read?
2017-01-15T00:10:29Z pseudonymous: I see. so 'in-package' accomplishes nothing in a macro because the reader has already done its job?
2017-01-15T00:10:49Z pjb: For the body form that is passed in parameter to the macro, yes.
2017-01-15T00:11:10Z pjb: But if this body calls read explicitely (to read some user data), then the in-package form will be effective for that data, that is read at run-time.
2017-01-15T00:11:34Z pjb: On the other hand, for this case, it would be preferable to use (LET ((*package* (run-time-package))) … (read) …)
2017-01-15T00:11:36Z pseudonymous: Why do I always get into the weeds with macros ;__;
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2017-01-15T00:11:46Z pjb: (actually, *package* is also used by PRINT to decide how to print the symbols (qualified or not)).
2017-01-15T00:12:08Z pjb: pseudonymous:  For more information about package, reading and evaluation, you want to read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html
2017-01-15T00:13:18Z pseudonymous: But isn't (read), (eval), (compile) and the like frowned upon? As the example showed, I was trying to locally override the definition of defun (failed due to a package lock). I'm sure I could've circumvented that too but I'm guessing anyone sane would tell me that I was doing something project-manhattan-level horrible
2017-01-15T00:14:04Z pjb: Yes, in general you don't need to patch the host language or libraries, just define your own package with your own version of things.
2017-01-15T00:14:40Z pjb: (defpackage "PSEUDONYMOUS-LISP" (:nicknames "P-LISP") (:use "CL") (:shadow "DEFUN") (:export "DEFUN" "FIRST" "CAR" …))
2017-01-15T00:15:02Z pjb: (in-package "PSEUDONYMOUS-LISP") (defmacro defun (…) `(…))
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2017-01-15T00:15:24Z pjb: Then in your programs, you (:use "PSEUDONYMOUS-LISP") instead of (:use "COMMON-LISP").
2017-01-15T00:15:53Z pseudonymous: pjb: here's the winner question - would *you* ever consider something so drastic as this ? Would you even ever bother to write something like (with-package ...) or do you consider the whole enterprise ill advised ?
2017-01-15T00:16:07Z pjb: Of course. See for example cl-stepper.
2017-01-15T00:16:56Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/common-lisp/lisp
2017-01-15T00:17:19Z pjb: I define all the special operators and a few macros in the CL-STEPPER package.
2017-01-15T00:17:31Z pjb: To use it you (:use "CL-STEPPER") instead of (:use "STEPPER").
2017-01-15T00:18:25Z pjb: with-package is not that useful, since as I indicated, (let ((*package* (get-run-time-package))) (read)) is what it would do, it's as simple to just write the let form.
2017-01-15T00:19:42Z pseudonymous: pbj: and generally, the method you advise would be less likely to have bad surprised. Sure, I could override defun and defvar, but what other functions might be similarly affected ? (read) solves all.
2017-01-15T00:20:22Z pjb: Depends on what you want to do. Why are you overriding defun?
2017-01-15T00:20:29Z pjb: Another example is ibcl.
2017-01-15T00:20:41Z pjb: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/
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2017-01-15T00:26:37Z pjb: pseudonymous: often, when you override defun, you need to also override lambda defmacro defgeneric defmethod define-compiler-macro flet labels macrolet and possibly also macros such as define-condition that take body forms that go into lambdas.
2017-01-15T00:26:45Z pseudonymous: pbj: I'll mull these things over. And I'll have to read this "ambitious eval" link to hopefully spare myself more days like this one. But this has been informative :)
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2017-01-15T01:08:32Z Marak: d4ryus: read-objects-from-string method might be working!
2017-01-15T01:08:37Z Marak: :-)
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2017-01-15T01:26:20Z circ-user-QcIM5: In lisp I tried this (make-array nil :initial-contents '(1 2 3)) and it gives me a 0 dimension array, but with elements in it #0A(1 2 3)  which seems a bit odd - does that make sense?
2017-01-15T01:27:27Z Bike: i think it gave you a 0 dimensional array with one element, which is a list.
2017-01-15T01:27:49Z Bike: i'm... not sure if that works.
2017-01-15T01:29:51Z circ-user-QcIM5: Can't seem to access elements afterwards though with aref
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2017-01-15T01:32:14Z Bike: (aref #0A(1 2 3)) => (1 2 3)
2017-01-15T01:32:16Z axion: There is 1 element. You supply no subscripts to aref to access it
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2017-01-15T01:32:54Z axion: I can't even think of any useful applications for that though
2017-01-15T01:33:22Z Bike: sowing confusion
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2017-01-15T01:43:06Z Marak: hey all. was wondering if it's possible to nest hash tables?
2017-01-15T01:44:15Z Bike: hash tables can be used as values in a hash table, if that's what you mean.
2017-01-15T01:44:28Z pjb: #0Ax is equivalent to the scalar x.  We could indeed make the type system such as any lisp object is an array.  But instead, CL expects an explicit wrapping in an array so #0Ax and x are distinct.
2017-01-15T01:45:11Z pjb: Now it's useful because you can still perform scalar operations on arrays (vectors, matrices, tensors, etc), using the same array x array algorithm.
2017-01-15T01:45:35Z Marak: yes they can Bike! i got it. my issue was trying to print the hash itself. i'm slowly lisping. thank you
2017-01-15T01:45:40Z Marak: its working now
2017-01-15T01:45:45Z pjb: Marak: in lisp, all the values are first class objects, so you can nest everything in everything.
2017-01-15T01:45:59Z Marak: lisp is nice. i like this so far
2017-01-15T01:46:05Z Marak: just a lot of new keywords to learn
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2017-01-15T03:49:58Z Marak: What's the easiest / best way to make outgoing HTTP requests in Common Lisp? Drakma?
2017-01-15T03:53:43Z Bike: drakma's pretty easy yeah.
2017-01-15T03:58:01Z Marak: nice, just landed my first Lisp commit! https://github.com/Stackvana/microcule/commit/71a7d95bb21e70647ec9af954fd0ebc56724e308
2017-01-15T03:58:18Z Marak: going to try and see if i can get drakma working then deploy this to production....
2017-01-15T04:00:19Z Marak: instead of parsing the incoming JSON in LISP i kinda cheated and used javascript to metaprogram lisp hashes. not pretty, but working well.
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2017-01-15T05:25:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-01-15T05:54:02Z Marak: can anyone make sense of this? *** - Error while trying to load definition for system drakma from pathname /Users/a/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/drakma-2.0.2/drakma.asd: SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (LOAD-SYSTEM TEST-OP) should be a lambda expression
2017-01-15T05:54:20Z Marak: is that a local environment issue, or a issue with the package?
2017-01-15T05:54:59Z Bike: what is (asdf:asdf-version)?
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2017-01-15T05:56:45Z Bike: i mean, basically what it says is you have invalid syntax in a form, but it could be caused by the system inappropriately interpreting some sexp as being a form when it is not, and clisp has an old asdf i think so it could be related
2017-01-15T05:58:58Z Marak: i tried to run:  (asdf:asdf-version), but it says, there is no package with name "ASDF"
2017-01-15T05:59:07Z Marak: sorry, i didnt know if you were responding to me lol
2017-01-15T05:59:29Z Bike: i was
2017-01-15T05:59:34Z Bike: how are you loading drakma if not asdf
2017-01-15T05:59:44Z Marak: (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") (ql:quickload :drakma)
2017-01-15T06:00:09Z Bike: do the asdf thing after loading quicklisp.
2017-01-15T06:00:48Z Marak: (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") (asdf:asdf-version)
2017-01-15T06:00:50Z Marak: no output
2017-01-15T06:01:09Z Bike: what? what's the return value?
2017-01-15T06:01:35Z Bike: are you just passing this to the command line?
2017-01-15T06:01:49Z Marak: sorry
2017-01-15T06:02:07Z Marak: "2.26"
2017-01-15T06:02:38Z Marak: i forgot i had to print the value to see it, i'm not a smart man
2017-01-15T06:02:53Z Bike: usually we use the repl and we don't have to print, so it works out
2017-01-15T06:03:18Z Bike: anyway, that's pretty old, so i'm guessing there's a version incompatibility. but that's just a guess.
2017-01-15T06:03:41Z Marak: i need to update what?
2017-01-15T06:03:50Z Marak: quicklisp? asdf?
2017-01-15T06:04:05Z Bike: asdf. current is 3.1.5.
2017-01-15T06:04:14Z Bike: i think you can just download an asdf.lisp and load it.
2017-01-15T06:04:33Z Marak: on it, thank you again
2017-01-15T06:04:34Z Marak: :-)
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2017-01-15T06:12:05Z Marak: *** - Error while trying to load definition for system bordeaux-threads from pathname /Users/a/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/bordeaux-threads-v0.8.5/bordeaux-threads.asd:       EVAL: unde