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knobo: When I load an asdf system, the init-hook is not run (for obvious reasons), is it a good idea to put initiation opreations like that in :preforme (load-op :after ....) in the system defenition, then? 2016-12-01T11:28:31Z knobo: the initiation would be different in load time, then it would be at core image start. 2016-12-01T11:28:34Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-01T11:28:46Z beach`` is now known as beach 2016-12-01T11:28:52Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:30:02Z knobo: Or should I stay away from the asf definition as long as there are other options. 2016-12-01T11:31:28Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-01T11:32:06Z jackdaniel: can't you put it in (eval-when (:load-toplevel) … ) ? 2016-12-01T11:33:44Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T11:34:07Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:35:41Z knobo: I'm thinking about a system for hosting multiple web sites in one lisp, each site will be it's own system, and when it is loaded, it should push some configuration to the web-server configuration. 2016-12-01T11:35:55Z knobo: Like here is my entry function for this site. 2016-12-01T11:36:55Z knobo: or, "I'll be handeling requests to this sub-path" 2016-12-01T11:37:16Z jackdaniel: eval-when should still work, right? 2016-12-01T11:38:02Z knobo: I'd just have to make sure that the eval-when is loaded at last. 2016-12-01T11:38:20Z knobo: So if I put it in a file, then it would have to depend on all other files. 2016-12-01T11:38:25Z knobo: Or make it :serial 2016-12-01T11:41:00Z jackdaniel: you may put it near the bottom of the last file. defining asdf method will work too of course, if you find it appealing go for it 2016-12-01T11:47:03Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:48:23Z knobo: Good to hear. I sometimes have too creative ideas, so I sometimes need someone to hold me back. 2016-12-01T11:48:24Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T11:48:27Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-12-01T11:49:14Z knobo: jeg skal hente i barnehagen klokken 15.15. 2016-12-01T11:49:19Z knobo: wrong channel 2016-12-01T11:49:21Z knobo: :( 2016-12-01T11:49:51Z Cymew: Inga problem. 2016-12-01T11:50:24Z brfennpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-01T11:52:03Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:52:21Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-01T11:53:46Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:54:08Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-01T11:54:32Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:56:01Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:56:58Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-01T11:58:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:58:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-12-01T11:58:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-01T11:58:31Z cibs joined #lisp 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and the more powerful ASTMatchers and all of the llvm AST classes exposed to Common Lisp. 2016-12-01T14:20:43Z shka: All hail CLASP! 2016-12-01T14:21:24Z jackdaniel: ,grab shka 2016-12-01T14:24:23Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:24:59Z drot quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-01T14:25:02Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:25:20Z Xach: Hmm, if I have :depends-on (:foo :bar) in a system definition, is it specified that foo is compiled and loaded before bar? 2016-12-01T14:29:12Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:29:13Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-01T14:29:37Z drot joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:31:09Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:32:02Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:32:24Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-01T14:32:30Z shka: ,shrug-of jackdaniel 2016-12-01T14:33:42Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-01T14:34:58Z alpert_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T14:35:17Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-01T14:35:34Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:36:50Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T14:37:54Z freehck joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:39:38Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-01T14:40:12Z travv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T14:40:17Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:45:11Z flip214: drmeister: thanks... is that available as a separate library somewhere, too? 2016-12-01T14:45:31Z flip214: Xach: don't think so. 2016-12-01T14:45:35Z drmeister: No - that would take an enormous amount of work. 2016-12-01T14:45:45Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:46:03Z drmeister: It's a large, C++ library exposed within Clasp - something Clasp handles easily and other Common Lisp's don't. 2016-12-01T14:47:52Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:50:12Z flip214: hmmm, thanks. 2016-12-01T14:50:20Z dim still wants a TLS implementation in CL 2016-12-01T14:50:35Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-12-01T14:50:36Z flip214: I want to look at an AST from a C program.... any ideas what's the easiest way to do that? 2016-12-01T14:51:02Z dlowe: using clasp 2016-12-01T14:51:22Z dlowe: Vacietis also has a parser 2016-12-01T14:51:34Z dlowe: but it doesn't support all of C11, IIRC 2016-12-01T14:52:23Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:53:05Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:54:18Z flip214: ah, right, Vacietis... 2016-12-01T14:54:30Z flip214: hasn't seen commits since 2012, but for old C code it might just work 2016-12-01T14:54:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:55:05Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-01T14:55:47Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T14:56:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:56:21Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:56:40Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-01T14:57:58Z moore33: jackdaniel: Hey, do you know if ECL works on Android 7? 2016-12-01T14:58:28Z jackdaniel: I havent tried it, but I don't see why it wouldn't 2016-12-01T14:58:36Z jackdaniel: it's just a shared object accessed via JNI 2016-12-01T14:59:57Z Niac_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-01T15:03:24Z moore33: jackdaniel: I ask because Maxima on Android doesn't seem to work anymore on Android 7. Of course a lot of things could be wrong, but before I dive in or file bug reports I thought I'd ask. 2016-12-01T15:03:51Z moore33: o 2016-12-01T15:05:20Z jackdaniel: speaking of C – it is a truly magic world. I've added printf for debugging purposes and bug stopped to manifest itself 2016-12-01T15:05:31Z jackdaniel: I've removed printf, rebuilt ECL and bug still doesn't manifest 2016-12-01T15:05:42Z jackdaniel: after adding printf again bug is reproductible again 2016-12-01T15:05:48Z jackdaniel: ^_^ 2016-12-01T15:05:56Z phoe: jackdaniel: software development is still mostly shamanism 2016-12-01T15:06:07Z shka: jackdaniel: SOLVED! xD 2016-12-01T15:07:19Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T15:07:43Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:07:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:12:55Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:12:58Z loke`: jackdaniel: what kind of bug is it? 2016-12-01T15:13:20Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/267 2016-12-01T15:14:22Z jackdaniel: two streams share the same FILE* pointer, during finalization fclose is called twice, what leads to the undefined behavior (usually crash with Double free or corruption after using drakma message) 2016-12-01T15:14:51Z jackdaniel: s/after using drakma// 2016-12-01T15:15:00Z jmignault joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:15:41Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:15:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-01T15:16:25Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:16:58Z loke`: How can two streams share the same fd? 2016-12-01T15:17:46Z jackdaniel: or maybe it's the one which is closed twice? still not 100% sure 2016-12-01T15:19:59Z jackdaniel: there is a small hack with socket-make-stream-inner, that's what makes me think that FILE* pointer is shared, but I may be wrong of course (generally to provide non-blocking read-writes on UNIX) 2016-12-01T15:20:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:20:36Z vicfred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-01T15:20:48Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T15:23:37Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-12-01T15:26:38Z warweasle quit (Quit: gye) 2016-12-01T15:29:10Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T15:30:07Z Harag joined #lisp 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with cl-graph or any recommendations for a library to construct a graph which can then be output in DOT file format? 2016-12-01T17:45:12Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-01T17:46:18Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-01T17:48:09Z beach: ejbs: You could look at the way I do it for the ASTs and the HIR program in Cleavir. It is not terribly difficult. Feel free to steal the code if you like (2-clause BSD license). 2016-12-01T17:49:26Z ejbs: beach: Okay, is it in the SICL repo? 2016-12-01T17:49:42Z beach: Yes, in Code/Cleavir/Intermediate-representation/HIR/graphviz-drawing.lisp 2016-12-01T17:50:23Z Xach: ejbs: cl-digraph is a new thing that does that 2016-12-01T17:50:56Z beach: AHA, maybe I can use that instead of my own thing. I'll investigate. 2016-12-01T17:51:12Z Xach: it is not yet in a quicklisp dist but will appear in the next release 2016-12-01T17:51:25Z beach: I will definitely look into that. 2016-12-01T17:51:33Z beach: Who is in charge of it? 2016-12-01T17:51:36Z Xach: writing dot files is initially very simple and many people roll their own, but a complete solution requires a lot of stuff 2016-12-01T17:51:48Z Xach: beach: sjl 2016-12-01T17:51:49Z beach: I can believe that. 2016-12-01T17:52:03Z Xach: it is on bitbucket 2016-12-01T17:52:06Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T17:52:09Z beach: Mine only works for the part I need for ASTs and HIR respectively. 2016-12-01T17:52:13Z ejbs: Xach: That one seemed pretty nice. Cl-graph seems to have more features though. Not that I can complain 2016-12-01T17:52:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-01T17:52:20Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-12-01T17:52:47Z ejbs: Ah well, I'll just write it in Dot language directly, I don't need to extract the data from a Lisp structure anyway or something like that 2016-12-01T17:53:21Z varjag: ejbs: i wrote cl-tulip-graph for visualizing large datasets in well, tulip 2016-12-01T17:53:26Z varjag: so no dot format 2016-12-01T17:53:43Z varjag: haven't used it in a while though 2016-12-01T17:54:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-01T17:54:40Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-12-01T17:54:50Z beach: Tulip syntax is S-expressions, right? 2016-12-01T17:55:32Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-01T17:55:46Z varjag: yep 2016-12-01T17:55:48Z akkad: yeah dot is pretty straight forward 2016-12-01T17:56:04Z varjag: not all the way down but pretty much it 2016-12-01T17:56:18Z varjag: certain properties are expressed as strings 2016-12-01T17:58:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T18:01:42Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-01T18:05:15Z swflint is now known as swflint_away 2016-12-01T18:05:18Z swflint_away quit (Quit: Leaving now...) 2016-12-01T18:06:16Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:07:05Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:07:36Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-01T18:07:36Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-12-01T18:08:57Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:10:40Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-01T18:12:58Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-01T18:13:18Z swflint joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:15:44Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:16:37Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-01T18:18:45Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:23:29Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:25:50Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:31:17Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:33:40Z gabriel_laddel is now known as gabriel_laddel_p 2016-12-01T18:35:40Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:36:48Z vshyba is now known as fulon 2016-12-01T18:37:36Z manuel__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T18:37:42Z alpert_ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:38:29Z brkr joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:38:43Z zymurgy1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2016-12-01T18:38:55Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:38:57Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T18:40:51Z ak5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T18:43:04Z prole quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-12-01T18:48:28Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:48:57Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:49:18Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-12-01T18:49:20Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:50:42Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:53:19Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T18:54:07Z gabriel_laddel_p quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-12-01T18:55:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:56:35Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-01T18:59:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:01:25Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:01:43Z shka joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:04:48Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2016-12-01T19:04:49Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:05:36Z pvaneynd_ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:07:18Z pvaneyn__ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:07:36Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:09:20Z pvaneynd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:10:46Z Tex_Nick left #lisp 2016-12-01T19:10:57Z pvaneynd_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:13:45Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-01T19:14:45Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:16:16Z giraffe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-01T19:19:36Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:22:28Z itruslove joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:23:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:25:28Z giraffe joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:29:04Z jasom: tulip looks pretty neat 2016-12-01T19:29:04Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:30:12Z jasom: beach: IIRC you're in Bordeaux somewhere; are you at LaBRI? 2016-12-01T19:33:00Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:38:43Z pvaneyn__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T19:39:27Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-12-01T19:40:49Z beach: jasom: Yes. I know the initial author of Tulip. 2016-12-01T19:41:09Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-01T19:43:41Z beach is off until tomorrow (UTC+1). 2016-12-01T19:46:53Z ejbs left #lisp 2016-12-01T19:47:30Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-01T19:48:04Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:52:19Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-12-01T19:52:34Z Carisius joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:59:33Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-12-01T19:59:33Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Changing host) 2016-12-01T19:59:33Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:01:01Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:04:13Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-01T20:04:26Z swflint quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-01T20:04:37Z swflint joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:04:37Z swflint quit (Changing host) 2016-12-01T20:04:37Z swflint joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:05:55Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T20:06:53Z nrp3c joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:07:07Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:07:09Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T20:07:18Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-01T20:08:53Z swflint is now known as swflint_away 2016-12-01T20:09:10Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-12-01T20:09:40Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T20:11:17Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-01T20:11:43Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:18:17Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:22:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:26:11Z francogrex joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:27:36Z francogrex: hi I have those two lists as examples on the right hand side that I would want to transform to the left hand side. The rule is the matching of the first and second sublist elements: http://paste.lisp.org/display/333017 2016-12-01T20:28:46Z francogrex: how would you conceptualize a straightforward way to do this (i.e. a general function)... know that the sublists could be > 2 elements per sublist, the first sublist being always the bigger one 2016-12-01T20:28:52Z Bike: you want it transformed in the opposite way of the arrow? 2016-12-01T20:29:22Z francogrex: no sorry did I mess the sides... 2016-12-01T20:29:33Z francogrex: left hand side to right hand side 2016-12-01T20:30:00Z francogrex: should be corrected in my first question above 2016-12-01T20:30:21Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:30:29Z francogrex: so the direction of the array is the way I would like it 2016-12-01T20:30:33Z francogrex: arrow 2016-12-01T20:30:45Z Bike: ok. well, beyond that it's pretty unclear what the numbers mean. 2016-12-01T20:31:53Z francogrex: those are number of certain events per country 2016-12-01T20:32:21Z francogrex: so in the first instance I have 1 event in DE (Germany) but none in Britain 2016-12-01T20:32:53Z francogrex: the idea is to then include the 0 so it becomes (0 1)... 2016-12-01T20:32:58Z francogrex: etc.. 2016-12-01T20:33:20Z nrp3c quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T20:33:50Z Bike: i think if you write out a specification of the transformation that someone else could understand, it will probably be obvious how to implement it. 2016-12-01T20:34:59Z Xach: espeically if that someone else is a cl implementation 2016-12-01T20:37:05Z francogrex: yes indeed if I write the specifications I would actually be wrting the program itself... 2016-12-01T20:37:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: francogrex: So, you have a list of three items: the first two are lists of country names and the third is a list of the number of events, each number corresponding to an item of the second list. 2016-12-01T20:37:32Z francogrex: fiddlerwoaroof: yes 2016-12-01T20:37:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: You want to fill in the third list with the countries in first list - second list by adding 0s in the appropriate locations and similarly updating the second list? 2016-12-01T20:38:06Z francogrex: true yes 2016-12-01T20:38:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: (where '-' is set-difference) 2016-12-01T20:38:08Z pvaneynd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T20:38:22Z francogrex: ? 2016-12-01T20:38:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just explaining my notation "first list - second list" 2016-12-01T20:38:50Z francogrex: yes 2016-12-01T20:39:50Z White_Flame: you should extend your example to where the 2nd list has more than 1 element 2016-12-01T20:39:54Z francogrex: like: (set-difference (nth 0 lst) (nth 1 lst) :test #'equal) 2016-12-01T20:39:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does that help you conceptualize the function you need to write, francogrex? 2016-12-01T20:40:04Z francogrex: White_Flame: yes true 2016-12-01T20:40:17Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T20:40:32Z White_Flame: s/2nd list/2nd element/ to be precise 2016-12-01T20:41:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd convert the second and third lists into an alist or a hash table and then loop over the first list, collecting the appropriate output. 2016-12-01T20:42:03Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:42:32Z pvaneynd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T20:44:26Z francogrex: so far a start maybe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/333017#1 2016-12-01T20:45:00Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:45:11Z _death: (list xs xs (loop for x in xs for p upfrom 0 for q = (position x ys) collect (if q (nth q zs) 0))) .. add equal for flavor 2016-12-01T20:45:43Z _death: (and remove p leftover clause) 2016-12-01T20:49:54Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:50:08Z francogrex: _death: yes good (loop for x in '("FR" "IT") for p upfrom 0 for q = (position x '("IT") :test #'equal) collect (if q (nth q '(3)) 0)) 2016-12-01T20:51:22Z alpert_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-01T20:51:24Z francogrex: works also for the general case: (loop for x in '("FR" "GB" "IT") for p upfrom 0 for q = (position x '("GB" "FR") :test #'equal) collect (if q (nth q '(3 1)) 0)) 2016-12-01T20:55:42Z francogrex: I will build on that seems the best.. thanks 2016-12-01T20:56:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:57:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I wonder how difficult it would be to make the reader recognize a char as meaning "close all open parentheses" 2016-12-01T20:57:39Z malice joined #lisp 2016-12-01T20:57:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It could be useful in the command line repl. 2016-12-01T20:58:09Z _death: old lisps had superparenthesis 2016-12-01T20:59:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool 2016-12-01T20:59:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.gavilan.edu/csis/languages/parentheses.html 2016-12-01T20:59:58Z _death: in the repl you can just C-RET 2016-12-01T21:00:06Z _death: (slime repl) 2016-12-01T21:00:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm talking about when you don't have slime yet 2016-12-01T21:00:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I'm in the middle of setting up a sbcl on a new computer) 2016-12-01T21:01:02Z _death: isn't it a matter of 2 mins 2016-12-01T21:01:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T21:01:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-01T21:02:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm on FreeBSD, and there are a couple of wrinkles with threading that means I have to manually test a couple things to make sure that slime will be usable. Plus, I don't really want to install emacs on this box. 2016-12-01T21:02:12Z _death: with quicklisp and the quicklisp-slime-helper.. 2016-12-01T21:02:54Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:03:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: ... unless I can figure out how to install a full-featured emacs without pulling in X 2016-12-01T21:03:27Z _death: does it not have an emacs-nox? 2016-12-01T21:04:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tried that once, I think, freebsd's packages/ports sometimes make weird decisions about which features to bundle together 2016-12-01T21:06:50Z _death: the problem with implementing a super paren reader is that you don't have a read-delimited-form function.. but you can find solutions online or write your own.. 2016-12-01T21:07:20Z _death: (also, it needs to be more generalized than r-d-l, of course..) 2016-12-01T21:08:02Z Reinisch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-12-01T21:08:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I suppose there isn't a standard way to get the number of open parens, is there 2016-12-01T21:08:54Z _death: nope 2016-12-01T21:09:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was mostly thinking of a reader macro on ] that would just expand to a bunch of closed-parentheses, but that probably won't work. 2016-12-01T21:09:21Z _death: of course it won't.. you need a macro for #\( 2016-12-01T21:09:25Z Bike: that's now how ( reading works anyway, yeah. 2016-12-01T21:09:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I wasn't thinking things through 2016-12-01T21:10:48Z _death: #\) macro just signals an error.. 2016-12-01T21:11:58Z _death: maybe #\] could signal a condition to exit the recursive reads.. 2016-12-01T21:12:22Z Bike: well it signals an error because read-delimited-list is w hat takes care of ) 2016-12-01T21:12:46Z _death: but that'd require a very different #\( reader.. 2016-12-01T21:12:52Z Bike: right. 2016-12-01T21:12:53Z _death: Bike: right.. except it's not r-d-l :) 2016-12-01T21:13:26Z fiddlerwoaroof feels like building any package from ports involves building every single port 2016-12-01T21:14:35Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-01T21:14:48Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-01T21:16:03Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:16:52Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-01T21:17:23Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:17:24Z tax quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-12-01T21:23:32Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:25:32Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T21:27:43Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T21:27:53Z pvaneynd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T21:30:33Z Largeaux joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:30:34Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T21:30:34Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T21:30:38Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-01T21:32:10Z minion joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:32:17Z specbot joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:36:19Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T21:36:47Z terpri joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:37:30Z warweasle quit (Quit: driving now.) 2016-12-01T21:39:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:40:09Z malice: Hi, noob question! I've got this short code: http://ix.io/1Jrc 2016-12-01T21:40:25Z malice: I am trying to write a method that accepts 2 optional arguments, both fixnums(or ints). 2016-12-01T21:40:38Z malice: I get an error message about fixnum being an undefined variable 2016-12-01T21:40:42Z malice: what am I doing wrong? 2016-12-01T21:40:44Z Bike: you can't specialize on optional arguments. 2016-12-01T21:40:58Z akkad: what was the recommended graphviz dotty generator in cl? 2016-12-01T21:41:02Z Xach: FIXNUM is also not a system class 2016-12-01T21:41:07Z Xach: not a standard one, anyway 2016-12-01T21:41:19Z Bike: it interprets &optional syntax same as regular defun does, so fixnum is interpreted as the form of the default value for the variable. 2016-12-01T21:41:32Z Carisius quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-01T21:41:48Z _death: also, you shouldn't refer to fixnums.. if you want a fixed size int, specify the fixed size 2016-12-01T21:43:13Z malice: _death: I was trying to just get an INTEGER but had the same error, (type-of 2) gave me fixnum, tried to go with it 2016-12-01T21:43:47Z phoe: Is there a waiting framework for Common Lisp? 2016-12-01T21:44:05Z malice: Xach: what is a system class? 2016-12-01T21:44:13Z phoe: Wait for predicate X to become true, waiting Y seconds between each try, with a total timeout of Z? 2016-12-01T21:44:14Z malice: Bike: thanks for clarification. Too bad 2016-12-01T21:44:25Z Xach: malice: it is a thing on which you can specialize, if you use the proper syntax in defmethod. 2016-12-01T21:44:41Z Xach: malice: methods specialize only on classes, not types. you should try (class-of 2) and see what you get. 2016-12-01T21:45:00Z malice: Xach: # 2016-12-01T21:45:07Z malice: I thought it's just FIXNUM for me? 2016-12-01T21:45:23Z Bike: some implementations have a fixnum class, but it's not required by the standard. 2016-12-01T21:45:28Z malice: Okay. 2016-12-01T21:45:30Z _death: phoe: I wrote some exponential backoff stuff.. don't know if that's what you mean.. also, you need to do the actual waiting yourself 2016-12-01T21:45:32Z Xach: FIXNUM is not a standard system class. INTEGER is, though. 2016-12-01T21:45:39Z malice: Good to know, thanks. 2016-12-01T21:45:44Z Xach: There is an exponential backoff library in quicklisp. 2016-12-01T21:45:53Z younder: malice, (defun pri (x y) (assert (and (typep x 'integer) (typep y 'integer))) (format t "~d, ~d~%" x y)) 2016-12-01T21:46:10Z Bike: malice: anyway, you can do what you want by defining a generic function that takes two required arguments, and then a regular function with &optional arguments that calls the generic function. 2016-12-01T21:46:13Z malice: Xach: Thanks. Looks like my implementation(sbcl) got this as a class 2016-12-01T21:46:42Z malice: Bike: that's an idea I might use. Thanks! 2016-12-01T21:46:48Z malice: Too bad defmethod has this limitation... 2016-12-01T21:46:48Z Xach: malice: every object has a class. not every class is something you can use in specialization. 2016-12-01T21:47:02Z malice: Xach: ah, okay. 2016-12-01T21:47:15Z malice: I hope to learn about it soon 2016-12-01T21:47:17Z Xach: Every object is of one class, but may be of many types. 2016-12-01T21:47:26Z Xach: 1 is a bit, an integer, a fixnum, etc. 2016-12-01T21:47:34Z Bike: well, i mean, you can specialize on FIXNUM in sbcl and i think ccl. it's just not guaranteed to exist as a class 2016-12-01T21:47:39Z Bike: in other implementations 2016-12-01T21:47:54Z antoszka is now known as starypryk 2016-12-01T21:48:00Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T21:49:29Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T21:49:41Z phoe: derrida: no, really? nobody ever wrote a reusable wait function for CL? 2016-12-01T21:49:44Z phoe: I don't want to believe it 2016-12-01T21:50:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't waiting mostly context-dependent? 2016-12-01T21:50:44Z _death: fixnum is considered a representational type, not a methodical type.. if you want to read about that distinction: http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/clos-cacm.pdf 2016-12-01T21:50:45Z Xach: phoe: what kind of X did you have in mind? 2016-12-01T21:51:01Z phoe: Xach: a lambda 2016-12-01T21:51:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I.e. if you're using an asynchronous I/O framework, you don't want to just sleep. 2016-12-01T21:51:17Z Xach: phoe: can you be more specific? what is the lambda testing for? 2016-12-01T21:51:20Z malice: I've seen a DEFGENERIC with :method option, which contained method definition. I think it's ugly. Is this something preferred, or not? 2016-12-01T21:51:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a matter of taste, mostly 2016-12-01T21:51:38Z Xach: malice: I like to use it when I have a default case or a small set of known cases. 2016-12-01T21:51:39Z malice: What I mean is this: http://ix.io/1Jrk 2016-12-01T21:51:42Z Bike: i don't think it's particular preferred or unpreferred 2016-12-01T21:51:45Z phoe: Xach: the lambda returns true if some predicate succeeds and nil otherwise 2016-12-01T21:51:49Z phoe: uh 2016-12-01T21:51:57Z Xach: phoe: I know. But what do *you* have in mind that you would use it for? 2016-12-01T21:52:01Z malice: Okay, thanks guys! 2016-12-01T21:52:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: malice: I sometimes like to put unspecialized methods and especially :AROUND methods inside the defgeneric 2016-12-01T21:52:25Z phoe: waiting until a list has a particular object in a multithreaded environment 2016-12-01T21:52:32Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: that is interesting. i haven't done :around methods like that before. 2016-12-01T21:53:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I figure that :AROUND methods can be surprising, so they should be close to the definition of the generic function 2016-12-01T21:53:08Z Xach: phoe: oh. it seems like that specific thing would require some coordination that generic waiting wouldn't satisfy. 2016-12-01T21:53:21Z phoe: Xach: no, why? 2016-12-01T21:53:29Z phoe: (lambda () (with-lock-held (...) ...)) 2016-12-01T21:53:39Z Xach: phoe: between the testing and the taking action, something could mutate your list. 2016-12-01T21:54:23Z phoe: I want the waiting function to return the object returned by the lambda 2016-12-01T21:54:26Z younder: fiddlerwoaroof, :around is what they in C called a thunk. add behaviour to a method like logging. 2016-12-01T21:54:36Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:54:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-01T21:54:55Z phoe: so if the lambda uses #'FIND for example, I'll get the concrete object and not a mutable list 2016-12-01T21:55:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I think channel-like constructs and message passing are generally better than watching shared state for multithreaded applications 2016-12-01T21:55:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: htop 2016-12-01T21:55:30Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: arrrrrgh 2016-12-01T21:55:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: :P 2016-12-01T21:55:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: (re typing htop into IRC) 2016-12-01T21:55:56Z phoe: I don't have the state of mind to rewrite my stuff into messagepassing now 2016-12-01T21:56:12Z phoe: but it looks sane, so I'll do it asap. 2016-12-01T21:56:31Z _death: phoe: do you mean something like presence-monitor in http://paste.lisp.org/display/333024 ? 2016-12-01T21:57:03Z _death: phoe: in any case, there are a bunch of event loop libraries for CL.. it's easy to implement such a thing with them 2016-12-01T21:57:17Z phoe: _death: fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: I'll just stop coding for now 2016-12-01T21:57:22Z phoe: I can't code while flu 2016-12-01T21:57:26Z phoe: which sucks ;( 2016-12-01T22:03:30Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:03:53Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T22:04:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:07:06Z phoe: Should I be using CHANL for channels? 2016-12-01T22:07:11Z phoe: Also, is there a portable way of locking a package? 2016-12-01T22:07:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's what I use, don't know if there's a better library 2016-12-01T22:07:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've also used sb-concurrency:mailbox from time to time. 2016-12-01T22:07:55Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-01T22:09:31Z akkad: in clos if you do not specify the :type on a slot, what does it default to? 2016-12-01T22:09:36Z _death: akkad: t 2016-12-01T22:09:54Z akkad: k 2016-12-01T22:10:07Z akkad: so on make-instance will it take any object type then? 2016-12-01T22:10:18Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:10:43Z akkad: ok so I do not need to default :type STRING as I have been doing. perfect 2016-12-01T22:11:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T22:15:28Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-01T22:16:17Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-01T22:17:10Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T22:17:30Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:17:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:20:12Z seg joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:20:51Z Largeaux quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-01T22:24:14Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:31:10Z malice: Was there some interface in CL to work with plists, but not these tied to slots? 2016-12-01T22:31:37Z malice: I want to get some property from plist, e.g. I get '(:something 1 :something-else 2). I want to do something like (get :something-else my-plist) 2016-12-01T22:31:44Z Bike: getf. 2016-12-01T22:32:15Z malice: Damn it, I must have missed it. Thanks a lot Bike and sorry for stupid question! 2016-12-01T22:32:26Z Bike: don't worry about stupid questions 2016-12-01T22:33:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:37:31Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:39:01Z jasom: phoe: see also lparallel for channels 2016-12-01T22:40:52Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T22:42:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-01T22:42:30Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T22:43:36Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:44:38Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:44:51Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:44:57Z phoe: jasom: thanks 2016-12-01T22:46:33Z jasom: phoe: though reading more context, I think chanl is closer to what you want 2016-12-01T22:47:04Z phoe: lparallel looks fairly complicated, too 2016-12-01T22:47:11Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:47:44Z _death: phoe: my paste makes use of lparallel channels 2016-12-01T22:47:47Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T22:49:09Z jasom: _death: IIRC lparallel only allows N tasks to run concurrently where N is the number of worker threads, correct? 2016-12-01T22:49:32Z _death: jasom: yep 2016-12-01T22:49:50Z jasom: It's very different from CSP where each logical task runs independently 2016-12-01T22:50:14Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:50:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyone have multithreaded code for stress testing a new server? 2016-12-01T22:50:25Z malice: I want to make a method for an object; the method isn't really generic though. I want to attach documentation. Should I make separate defgeneric and defmethod, use defgeneric with :method option, or do something else? 2016-12-01T22:50:29Z Guest16089 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:50:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suppose I could just spin up nProcessor threads with (loop) 2016-12-01T22:50:57Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: lparallel will let you run a map operation across a configurable number of worker threads 2016-12-01T22:51:22Z _death: jasom: well, maybe the right term in your statement is "in parallel".. the concurrency is not limited to N tasks 2016-12-01T22:51:41Z BusFactor1: fiddlerwoaroof: what kind of server? 2016-12-01T22:51:45Z jasom: _death: I mean not in parallel, but concurrent. e.g. if a task sleeps it doesn't free up another task to run. 2016-12-01T22:51:47Z Bike: malice: i'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence, but again, using :method versus defmethod isn't a big deal. 2016-12-01T22:51:57Z Bike: malice: make sure the documentation goes in the defgeneric though. 2016-12-01T22:52:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: BusFactor1: An HP Proliant DL360 G6 I got off ebay 2016-12-01T22:52:17Z BusFactor1: oh, i thought you meant server software :) 2016-12-01T22:52:18Z jasom: _death: if I have N worker threads and submit N tasks, then the next task will never make any progress until one of the previously submitted tasks makes progress 2016-12-01T22:52:21Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T22:52:28Z jasom: _death: if I have N worker threads and submit N tasks, then the next task will never make any progress until one of the previously submitted tasks completes 2016-12-01T22:52:44Z malice: Bike: (defun x (y) "do x with y" (do-x y)) then (documentation 'x 'function); I want to have the same for defmethod, but the documentation string doesn't work in defmethod that way, or I tested it inproperly. 2016-12-01T22:52:45Z _death: jasom: that is correct in the case of lparallel 2016-12-01T22:52:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just upgraded the CPUs, and want to test my new cores :) 2016-12-01T22:53:06Z malice: Now I'm asking if there's some elegant solution to this in CL. 2016-12-01T22:53:08Z Bike: malice: yeah, documentation in a defmethod is for the method itself, not the generic function. 2016-12-01T22:53:10Z malice: Or one that's preferable 2016-12-01T22:53:20Z Bike: malice: for the generic function you do (defgeneric x (y) (:documentation "do x with y")) 2016-12-01T22:53:29Z malice: Okay. I guess I'll go with :method for defgeneric then. 2016-12-01T22:53:41Z Bike: what i just said is unrelated to using :method versus defmethod. 2016-12-01T22:53:46Z malice: yes 2016-12-01T22:54:01Z malice: I also thought about dumping method and going with function 2016-12-01T22:54:09Z BusFactor1: fiddlerwoaroof: clone emacs, ./configure && make -j$((2*NCORES)) 2016-12-01T22:54:10Z BusFactor1: :) 2016-12-01T22:54:16Z malice: and assert the type of the argument 2016-12-01T22:54:25Z malice: but that looks like the worst idea out of these three 2016-12-01T22:54:26Z Bike: yes, insofar as i understand your first sentence it sounds more like a function to me. 2016-12-01T22:54:31Z BusFactor1: not in cl unfortuantely, but that's the first way i test my cores on a new system 2016-12-01T22:54:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-01T22:55:32Z malice: Bike: so (defun x (y) (assert (typep x 'my-class)) (do-stuff y)) is better? 2016-12-01T22:55:46Z _death: there's check-type 2016-12-01T22:55:53Z Bike: i'd just do (check-type x my-class), but yeah. 2016-12-01T22:57:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does the standard guarantee that assertions will run? 2016-12-01T22:57:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs assert 2016-12-01T22:57:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_assert.htm 2016-12-01T22:57:33Z Bike: it's not conditionally removed by compilers or anything. 2016-12-01T22:57:53Z Bike: it doesn't guarantee any kind of check for declarations, is the subtle bit. 2016-12-01T22:57:57Z malice: Thanks for the check-type :) 2016-12-01T22:58:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, I'm used to evaluation of assertions being optional 2016-12-01T22:58:35Z pillton: I hate that. 2016-12-01T22:58:55Z pillton: i.e. They shouldn't be optional. 2016-12-01T22:59:18Z Bike: i was under the impression that they were not optional in C, not counting NDEBUG 2016-12-01T22:59:43Z Xof: Xach: do you do spatulas for export? 2016-12-01T22:59:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, most of my non-Lisp programmin is python/php 2016-12-01T22:59:55Z pillton: Bike: Yeah, but CMake for example sets NDEBUG for optimize declarations. 2016-12-01T23:00:12Z Bike: nice, nice. 2016-12-01T23:00:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Python strips assertions with -O and I don't understand all the nuances of PHP's assertions 2016-12-01T23:00:59Z pillton: Kids these days. 2016-12-01T23:01:01Z Bike: well, that sounds more like lisp declarations. 2016-12-01T23:01:03Z Xach: Xof: I can make it so. 2016-12-01T23:01:04Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T23:01:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I think of assertions as debugging utilities 2016-12-01T23:01:40Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:02:06Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: Lisp assertions throw up errors if the assertee evaluates to false 2016-12-01T23:02:19Z _death: what's cool is that assert can take a list of places to help you restart 2016-12-01T23:04:19Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-01T23:05:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: That is cool 2016-12-01T23:05:22Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:06:13Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:07:09Z pillton: check-type does the same thing if I recall. 2016-12-01T23:07:16Z _death: yep 2016-12-01T23:07:37Z Bike: i don't think i've ever used the assert thing, but check-type lets you specify a description of the type, which is nice 2016-12-01T23:07:51Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:07:57Z pillton: Which stops the compiler from doing some optimisations. 2016-12-01T23:08:28Z Bike: what, specifying a string? or restarting. 2016-12-01T23:08:35Z pillton: The restarting thing. 2016-12-01T23:08:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: It doesn't reassert with the new value? 2016-12-01T23:09:00Z malice: pillton: does it? 2016-12-01T23:09:08Z Bike: it does, but it means the compiler can't propagate type information backwards 2016-12-01T23:09:33Z malice: I thought you could optimize for speed 3 and safety 0, which means that you better be sure your code is working or strange things are going to happen 2016-12-01T23:09:41Z malice: but you get fast code 2016-12-01T23:09:41Z Bike: like, if you have (progn (print (+ a 4)) (check-type a integer)) the compiler can't go "oh, a is an integer for (+ a 4), i can use easy addition" 2016-12-01T23:09:45Z pillton: Safety 0? are you nuts? 2016-12-01T23:09:57Z malice: :D 2016-12-01T23:10:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or does a typecase block that optimization? 2016-12-01T23:10:05Z Bike: malice: yes, pillton is talking about check-type making certain kinds of optimizations impossible regardless of optimization policy 2016-12-01T23:10:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/Or does a/ 2016-12-01T23:10:13Z _death: introduce safety -1 2016-12-01T23:10:13Z malice: Bike: okay, thanks 2016-12-01T23:10:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T23:10:48Z Bike: well, i guess with the print it can't move it back anyways since there's side effects, bla bla bla 2016-12-01T23:10:54Z pillton: malice: I have only ever used safety 0 for applications of row-major-aref. 2016-12-01T23:11:03Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:12:28Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:12:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: HP iLO's terminal is a bit annoying... 2016-12-01T23:14:03Z malice: pillton: I was using it mostly to see the different code that compiler produces 2016-12-01T23:14:18Z malice: CL's often fast enough for me 2016-12-01T23:16:33Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:16:34Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-01T23:16:43Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-01T23:18:57Z Guest16089 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:19:05Z NeverDie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:19:52Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:20:25Z malice: I have a function returning multiple values. Is there a way to change them to list, without multiple-value-bind? 2016-12-01T23:20:34Z malice: (values-to-list (values 0 2)) -> (list 0 2) 2016-12-01T23:20:39Z Bike: multiple-value-list 2016-12-01T23:20:57Z malice: Bike: Thanks! 2016-12-01T23:22:05Z nicdev` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T23:22:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: (multiple-value-call #'list (values 0 2)) #| => (list 0 2) |# 2016-12-01T23:22:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2016-12-01T23:24:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:25:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I can't seem to get cpu usage to 2400% . . . maybe this is a limitation of hyperthreading. 2016-12-01T23:30:26Z malice: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks a lot! 2016-12-01T23:30:34Z malice: That's a nice solution if I want to create a cons instead :) 2016-12-01T23:31:10Z BusFactor1 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-01T23:31:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, multiple-value-call can be helpful, if you want to avoid building up a temporary list for some reason. 2016-12-01T23:31:55Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:32:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:33:51Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:33:55Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:35:04Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: I whipped up a super-inefficient sieve of eratosthenes; uses lots of ram and cpu for large values (say 2 billion or so) http://paste.lisp.org/display/333028 2016-12-01T23:37:13Z aeth: I have a non-portable sieve from a while back that assumes fixnum (which should be good for most smallish primes, especially on Lisps other than clisp, which has a tiny fixnum) 2016-12-01T23:37:32Z aeth: I suppose I could cut it off at unsigned-byte 60 or 61 or something and get most Lisps 2016-12-01T23:37:42Z aeth: *signed-byte... but I could use unsigned byte there 2016-12-01T23:39:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: thanks, I'll look into it in a bit. 2016-12-01T23:40:09Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:41:21Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-01T23:41:51Z malice: Hey, another problem! I've created this macro, but I get an error. Here's code: http://ix.io/1Jsp ; the error is: the function :title is undefined 2016-12-01T23:42:22Z malice: I thought that this macro would prevent win-opts from being evaluated; is alexandria:once-only trying to evaluate it? 2016-12-01T23:43:42Z axion: malice: I would suggest you look into sdl2kit. It makes coding cl-sdl2 much less boilerplatey 2016-12-01T23:43:56Z axion: and join #lispgames 2016-12-01T23:45:31Z aeth: Does anyone know why clisp has a tiny fixnum? It seems like everything else uses the platform's integer (so e.g. unsigned-byte 64) with a few bits reserved for things (sbcl only uses one) but CLISP's is 49. You can find this with (1+ (integer-length most-positive-fixnum)) 2016-12-01T23:46:01Z aeth: iirc, sbcl is 63, ecl is 62, and ccl is 61. 2016-12-01T23:46:03Z malice: axion: I will look into that. However, I also get some fun from making these things. 2016-12-01T23:46:12Z malice: Anyway, my question isn't related to sdl I guess. 2016-12-01T23:48:33Z aeth: and ugh, it's signed-byte that fixnum uses. I keep forgetting about the existence of negative numbers. 2016-12-01T23:49:37Z warweasle quit (Quit: rebooting) 2016-12-01T23:51:49Z jasom: aeth: my prime sieve is most likely limited to fixnums since it allocates an array up fromt 2016-12-01T23:52:07Z jasom: in theory a lisp could support arrays of size larger than fixnum 2016-12-01T23:52:41Z aeth: they usually do 2016-12-01T23:52:42Z jasom: also, I assumed that (setf bit) is not thread-safe on sbcl, was I wrong? 2016-12-01T23:52:55Z younder: aeth, yeah, stop that positive thinking! ;) 2016-12-01T23:53:13Z aeth: Lisps can support arrays of (unsigned-byte 64), while the fixnum is (signed-byte n) where n < 64 2016-12-01T23:53:24Z aeth: usually only a few bits less 2016-12-01T23:53:35Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-01T23:53:55Z jasom: (fixnump array-dimension-limit) => T on sbcl 2016-12-01T23:54:03Z aeth: (type-of (make-array 1 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 64))) 2016-12-01T23:54:15Z aeth: That's only a simple-vector on clisp, at least of the Lisps I have installed 2016-12-01T23:54:19Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-01T23:54:37Z aeth: same with signed-byte 64 2016-12-01T23:55:08Z aeth: Although technically they're the same size, it's just that the fixnum reserves some bits 2016-12-01T23:55:20Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-01T23:56:43Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-01T23:56:54Z aeth: For the more literal "larger", I can imagine that a Lisp on a platform with quadruple-precision floating point as its long-float would allow 128-bit upgraed arrays even if its fixnum isn't 128-bit, but I'm not sure if there are any Lisps targeting that niche hardware 2016-12-01T23:57:13Z aeth: s/upgraed/upgraded/ 2016-12-01T23:57:13Z jasom: aeth: in any event I meant an array of size larger than most-positive-fixnum 2016-12-01T23:57:26Z aeth: ah, the other size 2016-12-01T23:58:24Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:00:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T00:00:19Z aeth: jasom: It's possible that there'd be a (fixnump array-dimension-limit) => NIL but that still isn't saying much imo because the fixnum isn't a 64-bit signed integer so they could have some sort of internal hack to use an (unsigned-byte 64) as the array-dimension-limit 2016-12-02T00:01:15Z aeth: i.e. I see no reason why a CL couldn't do something like (and (not (typep array-dimension-limit 'fixnum)) (typep array-dimension-limit '(unsigned-byte 64))) 2016-12-02T00:01:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:02:49Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T00:03:08Z aeth: (well the reason is probably that more code for that implementation wouldn't be able to be written in (portable) CL) 2016-12-02T00:03:57Z Einwq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T00:11:30Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-02T00:12:07Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T00:12:13Z macdavid313 quit 2016-12-02T00:13:22Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:13:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T00:18:18Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-12-02T00:19:38Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:19:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T00:20:21Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:24:55Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:25:29Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-02T00:25:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T00:28:12Z safe joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:36:04Z pierpa: CLHS: sqrt returns the principal square root of number. 2016-12-02T00:36:20Z pierpa: CLHS: principal adj. (of a value returned by a Common Lisp function that implements a mathematically irrational or transcendental function defined in the complex domain) of possibly many (sometimes an infinite number of) correct values for the mathematical function, being the particular value which the corresponding Common Lisp function has been defined to return. 2016-12-02T00:36:20Z Bike: array dimension limit is specified to be a fixnum, or am i missing something 2016-12-02T00:36:23Z pierpa: sigh 2016-12-02T00:36:33Z Bike: pierpa: yeah that's complicated, let me see if i can find the section 2016-12-02T00:36:51Z pierpa: it's not complicated, it's a circular definition 2016-12-02T00:37:04Z Bike: i mean, the underlying definition is complicated 2016-12-02T00:37:38Z pierpa: I know what SQRT is supposed to return, but CLHS fails to define it 2016-12-02T00:38:04Z Bike: "The branch cut for square root lies along the negative real axis, continuous with quadrant II. The range consists of the right half-plane, including the non-negative imaginary axis and excluding the negative imaginary axis. " 2016-12-02T00:38:39Z jasom: Bike beat me to it by 30s 2016-12-02T00:38:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:39:10Z Bike: clhs 12.1.5.4 2016-12-02T00:39:10Z specbot: Principal Values and Branch Cuts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aed.htm 2016-12-02T00:39:37Z Bike: has a few of the complex analysis concepts you're assumed to know for this, and a citation (groan, i know) 2016-12-02T00:39:47Z pierpa: ok. You are right. I stand corrected! 2016-12-02T00:40:41Z aeth: Bike: you're correct 2016-12-02T00:40:46Z Bike: i'm always correct 2016-12-02T00:40:52Z Bike: oh, about array dimension thing 2016-12-02T00:40:58Z Bike: swear to god it sounds like something from an anime 2016-12-02T00:41:06Z aeth: "A positive fixnum, the exact magnitude of which is implementation-dependent, but which is not less than 1024." 2016-12-02T00:41:32Z Bike: activate the array dimension limiter! 2016-12-02T00:41:53Z aeth: Someone should make a CL that makes the value 1 more than the minimum where a minimum is given :-p 2016-12-02T00:42:05Z aeth: so e.g. fixnum would be one more than the max of (signed-byte 16) 2016-12-02T00:42:25Z jasom: 32768 2016-12-02T00:42:38Z warweasle quit (Quit: bye) 2016-12-02T00:43:04Z aeth: jasom: you beat me to it only because I needed to bring up emacs to verify it 2016-12-02T00:43:08Z aeth: I need to install my SSD 2016-12-02T00:43:16Z jasom: I just did the math in my head 2016-12-02T00:43:43Z jasom almost typed 65536 but corrected himself 2016-12-02T00:43:53Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:44:03Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-02T00:44:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:44:11Z aeth: I only have the harder one memorized, 4294967296 2016-12-02T00:44:27Z aeth: not the hardest one, though, which is (expt 2 64) or 18446744073709551616 2016-12-02T00:44:53Z Bike: "four billion ish", "a lot", no problem 2016-12-02T00:45:27Z aeth: Bike: the trick to remembering it is to treat it like a phone number 2016-12-02T00:45:50Z aeth: (429) 496 7296 2016-12-02T00:46:04Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:46:06Z aeth: Suddenly it's easy, and you might even hear the dial tone in your head 2016-12-02T00:46:08Z Bike: geez, i thought you meant the second one, was gonna be like where the hell are you from, an arcology? 2016-12-02T00:46:23Z aeth: If you're out of the US, it'd probably be a broken up bit differently 2016-12-02T00:47:17Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T00:47:29Z slyrus__ is now known as slyrus 2016-12-02T00:48:17Z aeth: (Actually, a lot of people here have probably never memorized a phone number. People born in 2000 are almost adults now.) 2016-12-02T00:48:21Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-02T00:48:30Z pillton: Bike: That is the area code for Alpha Centauri. 2016-12-02T00:48:41Z Bike: and those of us that have had to memorize phone numbers aren't keen on continuing the practice 2016-12-02T00:48:54Z pillton: Wait until you lose your phone. 2016-12-02T00:49:18Z Bike: heh. yeah. 2016-12-02T00:49:41Z Bike: when that happened i went to the store and asked for an address book and the clerk looked at me like i'd walked out of a wormhole 2016-12-02T00:50:05Z aeth: I don't even have my own phone number memorized... I memorized my much easier Google Voice number 2016-12-02T00:50:24Z aeth: Google Voice was (idk if they still are) giving away numbers, so I just picked one in my area with enough 0s 2016-12-02T00:51:11Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-02T00:51:31Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T00:52:07Z aeth: Btw, another way you can memorize (expt 2 32) is #x100000000 2016-12-02T00:52:17Z aeth: That might be easier for some people 2016-12-02T00:52:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T00:52:52Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-02T00:52:56Z rpg_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-02T00:53:03Z aeth: And conveniently, 1 less than that (which is often also necessary) is the same amount of fs as that is 0s. #ffffffff 2016-12-02T00:59:13Z tax joined #lisp 2016-12-02T00:59:25Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-02T01:00:08Z nicdev joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:00:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:09:36Z younder: Setting up hash tables is a bit labor intensive so I made a macro 'create-hash-from-tuple-list' at http://paste.lisp.org/display/333035 2016-12-02T01:10:51Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:12:46Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:15:19Z younder: That should have been: (defparameter *table* (create-hash-from-tuple-list ... 2016-12-02T01:18:14Z Xach: Why is that a macro? 2016-12-02T01:18:32Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:19:09Z younder: I want all agument to be passed on to make-hash-table except the list of lists. I can't do that with a function. 2016-12-02T01:19:45Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T01:20:31Z Xach: younder: You can. (defun cht (list &rest args) (apply #'make-hash-table args) initialize-from-list)))) 2016-12-02T01:22:34Z younder: Yeah, but I though it would be easier to read if the :test #'equal came before the (("one" 1) ("two" 2) ...) 2016-12-02T01:23:01Z Bike: then you just have your function pick off the first two elements and make a new list for apply. 2016-12-02T01:23:34Z sucks joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:23:38Z Xach: younder: i don't think it's worth it. 2016-12-02T01:25:19Z Xach: No trace, no apply, no funcall, etc, etc. 2016-12-02T01:25:54Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:27:08Z younder: Do you really need those just to put some key value pairs in a hash table? If so do it the old way. 2016-12-02T01:27:17Z Bike: ie, (defun cht (&rest args) (apply #'make-hash-table (butlast args)) initialize-from-last-arg). but then you lose some of the point of keys. 2016-12-02T01:29:07Z sucks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-02T01:29:11Z younder: Well the way I thought to use it was in a lexer to recognize variable names. I start by etering reserved names and then enter new ones as they are discovered by the lexer. 2016-12-02T01:29:24Z sucks joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:29:39Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T01:29:58Z sucks joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:30:08Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:30:15Z younder: anyhow good night 2016-12-02T01:30:23Z Largeaux joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:31:52Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T01:31:52Z sucks_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T01:32:14Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:32:16Z sucks joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:32:27Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T01:32:27Z sucks_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T01:36:32Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:37:17Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T01:37:26Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2016-12-02T01:37:53Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-02T01:45:25Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:48:08Z Keep0wer joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:48:09Z Keep0wer quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-12-02T01:48:15Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-12-02T01:48:34Z Keep0wer joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:48:36Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T01:48:46Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T01:49:36Z pvaneynd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T01:53:36Z Largeaux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T01:54:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:01:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T02:12:21Z _leb joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:15:46Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:17:31Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:22:06Z pvaneynd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T02:25:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:26:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:27:05Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T02:28:52Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:29:57Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:30:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T02:32:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T02:33:01Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:34:34Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:36:42Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:37:30Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-02T02:39:16Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:42:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T02:42:43Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:43:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:43:46Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T02:44:21Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T02:48:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T02:52:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T02:52:34Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:52:34Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:53:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:53:28Z megalography joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:53:48Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T02:53:56Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T02:54:40Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-02T03:02:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T03:02:49Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:03:02Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:05:27Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-02T03:06:18Z SpikeMaster quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50.1)) 2016-12-02T03:06:28Z _leb quit 2016-12-02T03:06:46Z warweasle: Is there a nice macro for creating alists? besides `((a . ,b) (c . ,d) ...) ? 2016-12-02T03:07:46Z Zhivago: Why not just write one like (ALIST A B C D) ? 2016-12-02T03:08:13Z warweasle: Zhivago: I could, but if one already exists, I'd use that so others understand it. 2016-12-02T03:10:38Z loke: warweasle: (defun alist (&rest pairs) (loop for (a b) on pairs by #'cddr collect (cons a b))) 2016-12-02T03:10:42Z loke: There. Done. 2016-12-02T03:11:11Z _death: almost.. you want (defmacro alist (&rest args) `(list ,@(loop for (k v) on args by #'cddr collect `(cons ',k ,v)))) 2016-12-02T03:11:37Z Zhivago: Although (alist 'a b 'c d) might make it easier to distinguish the keys -- ymmv. 2016-12-02T03:11:48Z Arathnim: Is there any reason quicklisp and asdf wouldn't find a project in local-projects, even though the folder name, .asd file, and the defsystem all have the same identifier? 2016-12-02T03:12:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T03:12:21Z warweasle: Arathnim: I think there is a register-local-packages funcion. 2016-12-02T03:12:23Z loke: Arathnim: Is there another project with the same name somewhere else? 2016-12-02T03:12:31Z loke: Arathnim: Anyway, try deleting system-index.txt 2016-12-02T03:12:36Z warweasle: rathnim: (ql:register-local-projects 2016-12-02T03:12:53Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:12:57Z warweasle: Arathnim: I meant 2016-12-02T03:13:01Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:13:12Z Arathnim: warweasle: Thanks, completely missed that function in the slime apropos. 2016-12-02T03:13:15Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:14:22Z White_Flame: alexandria:plist-alist 2016-12-02T03:15:15Z warweasle: White_Flame: That's an idea. 2016-12-02T03:16:41Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:17:55Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:17:57Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T03:18:25Z warweasle quit (Quit: Done for the night.) 2016-12-02T03:18:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:20:13Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T03:22:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T03:23:02Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:24:22Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:24:36Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:24:53Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T03:26:35Z _leb joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:26:53Z _leb quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-02T03:30:18Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T03:30:59Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T03:33:03Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:41:34Z LooneyTu` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T03:41:47Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-02T03:42:49Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:45:35Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-12-02T03:47:06Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:47:17Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T03:51:01Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T03:55:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:02:57Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:03:06Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-12-02T04:03:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:05:30Z akkad: is this the right way to pass a class name and utilize it? https://gist.github.com/e5f2969de18ea24d0fc4c9ee559e67fa 2016-12-02T04:07:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T04:07:24Z pillton: You are better off using find-class to return the class meta object. 2016-12-02T04:07:44Z akkad: ok. thanks 2016-12-02T04:08:04Z pillton: That way klass can be a symbol or a class meta object. 2016-12-02T04:08:34Z akkad: ok so (find-class metis::klass)? was not sure if it would dereferfence or not 2016-12-02T04:09:38Z dmiles: LET can be safely be replaced with LET* , but not the other way arround.. correct? 2016-12-02T04:09:50Z pillton: akkad: Dereference? Find-class returns the class meta object that is bound to the given name. 2016-12-02T04:09:59Z akkad: k 2016-12-02T04:10:18Z akkad: (find-class (format nil "metis::~A" klass)) 2016-12-02T04:10:44Z pillton: (find-class klass) 2016-12-02T04:10:50Z akkad: k 2016-12-02T04:11:09Z pillton: I don't know what manard:doclass does so you may have some trouble there. 2016-12-02T04:12:11Z akkad: it's an iterable of all objects of the class 2016-12-02T04:12:16Z akkad: like dolist 2016-12-02T04:13:57Z pillton: Typically you would do (let* ((klass (if (symbolp klass) (find-class klass) klass))) ...). 2016-12-02T04:15:21Z Bike: manardb doc says doclass uses a class-specifier, so symbol name should be ok 2016-12-02T04:17:05Z pillton: If that is the case, then the value of the klass argument is not used in the pasted gist. 2016-12-02T04:17:38Z Bike: looks like it 2016-12-02T04:18:01Z Bike: so should be just (manardb:doclass (x klass ...) ... (make-instance klass ...)) 2016-12-02T04:19:06Z pillton: Out of curiosity. Is it convention to use klass for class meta objects? Isn't "class" sufficient? 2016-12-02T04:19:12Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:19:36Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T04:21:52Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:21:54Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-02T04:23:42Z loke: pillton: Classically used in Java where "class" is a reserved word. 2016-12-02T04:24:52Z pillton: Oh right. 2016-12-02T04:25:39Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T04:26:10Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-02T04:26:27Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:27:49Z terpri joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:27:53Z |3b|: dmiles: if you mean a single LET and LET* form and just directly replacing the operator, neither is safe in general. consider (let ((x 1) (y x))), y should not see the 2016-12-02T04:28:19Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-02T04:28:28Z LooneyTu` joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:29:28Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T04:30:03Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T04:30:34Z akkad: thanks folks. 2016-12-02T04:30:39Z |3b|: *y should not see the X binding created by that let form 2016-12-02T04:33:37Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:33:52Z dmiles: |3b|, oops, thanks that was what i was forgetting 2016-12-02T04:34:21Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T04:34:56Z phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 2016-12-02T04:35:11Z trn joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:36:02Z |3b|: LET* can be converted to nested LET, and LET can be converted to LET* if you rename variables as needed (would need a full code walker for that though), or maybe with temporaries (not completely general though, since the outer binding could be a symbol macro with side effects, and storing it in a temp would change order of side effects) 2016-12-02T04:37:58Z pvaneynd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T04:39:45Z dmiles: |3b|, i think now i understand a bug in my LET implemntion.. jeeze 2016-12-02T04:41:56Z dmiles: (defmacro let (var+list &rest body) `(let* (,@(mapcar #'trace-varinit var+list)) (trace-progn ,@body))) 2016-12-02T04:42:48Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-12-02T04:42:57Z dmiles: (define trace-varinit (var) (if (consp var) `(,(car var) ,@(trace-each (cdr var))) var)) 2016-12-02T04:43:42Z dmiles: well my program is pretty big.. but i needed to do those in temp vars 2016-12-02T04:44:19Z |3b|: actually, i guess if you make temp vars for all of the variables, it works 2016-12-02T04:45:18Z dmiles: i did that in my lambda.. but highnsight may &openooin paprms see each other? 2016-12-02T04:45:37Z dmiles: i did that in my lambda.. but highnsight maybe &optional params see each other? 2016-12-02T04:45:43Z |3b|: (let ((x 1) (y x))) -> (let* ((#1=#:x 1) (#2=#:y x) (x #1#) (y #2#))) 2016-12-02T04:46:30Z |3b|: &optional, &key and &aux should work like LET* i think, and see previous bindings in arglist 2016-12-02T04:46:42Z dmiles: (defun foo (&optional ((x 1) (y x))) ... ) 2016-12-02T04:46:43Z |3b| would have to check spec to be sure of that 2016-12-02T04:47:04Z |3b|: right, i think (foo) should get 1 for both in that case 2016-12-02T04:48:00Z dmiles: one hack i did is it was harder to create bod vars.. so i actualy created all my body vars as &optiomnal 2016-12-02T04:48:17Z |3b|: but don't use trace-varinit on those, since the 3rd argument is another variable binding not a value to be evaluated 2016-12-02T04:48:45Z |3b|: sounds like you wanted &aux there 2016-12-02T04:48:45Z akkad: is there a way to get a binding to the object created with make-instance? 2016-12-02T04:49:05Z |3b|: akkad: like (let ((x (make-instance 'foo))) ...)? 2016-12-02T04:49:12Z akkad: e.g. (setf foo (make-instance 'someclass :value "foo")) gives me nil 2016-12-02T04:49:43Z |3b|: that should return the instance and assign it to foo (assuming FOO names a variable or other place) 2016-12-02T04:49:50Z akkad: right 2016-12-02T04:50:05Z Bike: what do you mean "gives you nil"? setf returns the value, and make-instance never returns nil 2016-12-02T04:50:07Z |3b|: it doesn't create a binding though, just modifies an existing one 2016-12-02T04:51:15Z dmiles: "&aux variable processing is analogous to let* processing." nice 2016-12-02T04:51:21Z akkad: i must be doing something wrong then. https://gist.github.com/e4521fb2599a6dddb0792a700961cca3 2016-12-02T04:53:00Z Bike: so you mean get-obj returns nil? 2016-12-02T04:53:12Z Bike: my first guess would be that the body of doclass isn't running, then 2016-12-02T04:53:13Z akkad: i mean the format shows obj:nil 2016-12-02T04:55:21Z |3b|: what are X, NEW-VALUE and VALUE when that happens? 2016-12-02T04:55:43Z |3b|: or i guess the last set of those 2016-12-02T04:55:53Z akkad: get-obj: klass:EVENTID new-value:4c49c31e-18da-4498-8d81-cbb0991d673f obj:NIL 2016-12-02T04:56:17Z |3b|: though i guess if with-slots lets you access the VALUE slot of NIL, something is wrong 2016-12-02T04:56:51Z |3b|: try wrapping the make-instance in PRINT, and possibly the KLASS passed to it 2016-12-02T04:58:35Z akkad: i'm an idiot 2016-12-02T04:59:18Z akkad: k 2016-12-02T04:59:55Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:00:11Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:02:40Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-02T05:04:05Z akkad: was doing the make-instance in the iteration loop of doclass. this works. https://gist.github.com/c13c4a4eea070a03f48199d81c2c2bf6 2016-12-02T05:04:08Z akkad: thanks for the help 2016-12-02T05:04:46Z Bike: oh, a logic problem. aight 2016-12-02T05:05:08Z akkad: now to stop using string-equal on non-string types 2016-12-02T05:08:58Z LooneyTu` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:09:23Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:12:56Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-02T05:13:57Z wz1000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-02T05:20:37Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:21:37Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T05:23:20Z pillton: Why are you doing it this way? 2016-12-02T05:24:06Z pillton: Can't you have some sort of singleton issuing unique values? 2016-12-02T05:24:58Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:30:10Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:32:01Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:38:33Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-12-02T05:39:45Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:40:28Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:41:36Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:46:15Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:46:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:50:37Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:50:50Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:51:36Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:52:56Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:55:16Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-12-02T05:55:25Z pillton: G'day beach. 2016-12-02T05:55:46Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:58:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:58:57Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-02T05:59:04Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T05:59:37Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-02T06:00:37Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:02:35Z vtomole joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:06:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:07:33Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:08:05Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:08:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:10:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:15:17Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:17:48Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:18:00Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:25:57Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:26:13Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-02T06:27:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:27:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:29:25Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:35:41Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:39:07Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:39:28Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:39:37Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:40:42Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:42:25Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:42:58Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:43:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:44:50Z setheus joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:45:25Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:46:22Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T06:46:25Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:47:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:50:28Z eli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T06:51:53Z eli joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:51:53Z eli quit (Changing host) 2016-12-02T06:51:53Z eli joined #lisp 2016-12-02T06:52:14Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:55:01Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T06:57:38Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:07:40Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:09:38Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:11:18Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:14:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:15:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T07:18:06Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:21:24Z LooneyTu` joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:22:14Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T07:24:12Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:25:57Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:27:10Z LooneyTu` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T07:27:52Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:30:15Z aeth: Are compilers generally smart enough to handle (nth-value (truncate m n) 0) where m and n are both fixnums properly? 2016-12-02T07:31:01Z H4ns: is there a "generally" when it comes to compiler optimization features? 2016-12-02T07:31:11Z aeth: e.g. when the value is certainly even so the result is certainly (values m/n 0) 2016-12-02T07:31:33Z aeth: It seems like calculating the 2nd value would have *some* cost, and directly calling nth-value there might avoid it 2016-12-02T07:31:50Z Bike: depends on the architecture 2016-12-02T07:32:32Z Bike: for example, on x86 you have the idiv instruction, which stores both the quotient and remainder 2016-12-02T07:33:19Z aeth: Afaik the alternative is something like (the fixnum (/ m 2)) because in the more specific form of the hypothetical we know m is even, which seems uglier 2016-12-02T07:33:30Z aeth: And could just as easily cause issues 2016-12-02T07:33:36Z Bike: but yes, assuming truncate is optimized to inline to assembly with the types, it'll probably work out 2016-12-02T07:33:44Z Bike: (nth-value anything 0) is kind of weird though, i must say 2016-12-02T07:33:51Z aeth: yes 2016-12-02T07:34:32Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:34:33Z aeth: Unfortunately, in several places I'm doing integer division in functions in the last line, i.e. where there's returning 2016-12-02T07:34:50Z Bike: right. i guess i'm just used to (values anything) for that 2016-12-02T07:35:07Z aeth: oh, it's (nth-value 0 anything)... because nth value behaves like nth, which behaves like no other sequence in CL 2016-12-02T07:35:29Z aeth: one of my issues with the language actually comes up to bite me here because I haven't integrated SLIME with my IRC client 2016-12-02T07:36:13Z Bike: but yeah, with this specific problem, i wouldn't worry too strenuously about the values part, since machine arithmetic very often has an instruction to return both values. 2016-12-02T07:36:17Z aeth: Bike: Is that more idiomatic? nth-value seems clearer 2016-12-02T07:37:06Z Bike: i think? i mean it doesn't matter much. 2016-12-02T07:37:29Z |3b| would probably assume nth-value was getting something other than the value you would get without it, so would have to think about it more than VALUES 2016-12-02T07:38:49Z aeth: Bike: yeah, but maybe the hypothetical optimization (which I guess wouldn't be on x86 because of idiv so it doesn't *really* matter much) only works on the more idiomatic form for some reason! 2016-12-02T07:39:19Z Bike: if you have to worry about shit like that your compiler is just being annoying 2016-12-02T07:39:25Z |3b| would probably also guess that the common case of "known to only use the 0th value" would be optimized before nth-value 0 2016-12-02T07:40:21Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:40:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:40:28Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-02T07:40:44Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T07:41:56Z |3b|: though i guess nth-value would probably expand to the other anyway 2016-12-02T07:42:47Z Bike: on sbcl nth-value expands into some multiple-value-call lambda wackitude 2016-12-02T07:42:59Z Bike: which is probably run through again to simplify, but still 2016-12-02T07:43:01Z |3b|: for 0? 2016-12-02T07:43:16Z Bike: yeah, zero isn't special cased as far as i see 2016-12-02T07:43:25Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:43:26Z |3b| gets m-v-b which expands to LET when i try expanding it 2016-12-02T07:43:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:43:48Z Bike: oh. yeah, i misread, it expands to m-v-b for n < 10 2016-12-02T07:43:53Z Bike: <= 2016-12-02T07:44:18Z Bike: m-v-b special cases a singleton lambda list. neat. 2016-12-02T07:44:19Z |3b| wonders if LET vs VALUES would affect whether it gets TCO 2016-12-02T07:44:34Z Bike: with a comment saying they don't know what the point is, but cmucl did it 2016-12-02T07:46:43Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:47:19Z loke: vm-v-b for a single variable is optimised by SBCL though 2016-12-02T07:47:31Z |3b|: looks like VALUES with single arg turns into prog1, so also effectively a LET 2016-12-02T07:47:58Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:51:18Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:54:41Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T07:55:36Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:56:41Z Perce joined #lisp 2016-12-02T07:57:06Z |3b|: looks like in some special cases of constant N if it knows only 0th value of (TRUNCATE M N) is used it might only calculate that and not the other value, though in general it uses IDIV to get both (at least on x8664) 2016-12-02T07:57:49Z Perce: [Question] Hello, I'm new to lisp and I have slime installed but I can't figure out how to go up in history to repeat old commands. Could anyone lend me a hand? 2016-12-02T07:58:05Z |3b|: M-p ? 2016-12-02T07:58:30Z Perce: Yup, thanks so much 2016-12-02T07:58:35Z |3b|: possibly typing the beginning of the command you want to match first 2016-12-02T07:59:30Z |3b|: and M-n to go other way if you go back too far 2016-12-02T07:59:41Z Perce: Well in this situation it was a function that I messed up, but I see your point, also do you know if http://www.gigamonkeys.com is a good place to learn the basics? 2016-12-02T08:00:03Z |3b|: that is one of the usual suggestions for learning CL 2016-12-02T08:01:50Z Perce: Okay great, thanks a lot, I'm going to go back to learning now, but do you mind if I pop back now and then with questions? 2016-12-02T08:02:33Z |3b|: asking questions is fine 2016-12-02T08:02:45Z Perce: Okay thanks, appreciate it. 2016-12-02T08:05:24Z Perce: Haha I'm back already, so if I have (list :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) it returns the output (:A 1 :B 2 :C 3) 2016-12-02T08:05:36Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:06:25Z Perce: two questiosn how would i get lower case letters? why can't i do (list :aest 1 :best 2 :cest 3)? and 2016-12-02T08:06:41Z Bike: lisp upcases everything by default. 2016-12-02T08:06:47Z Perce: ah i see 2016-12-02T08:07:29Z Cymew: This must be case sensitive week. 2016-12-02T08:07:45Z Perce: And a property name can only one character right? 2016-12-02T08:08:09Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T08:08:10Z Bike: what? no, any symbol is fine. 2016-12-02T08:08:34Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:08:38Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:08:47Z Perce: really, why can't i create the list above, (list :aest 1 :best 2 :cest 3) 2016-12-02T08:08:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:08:56Z Perce: it gives me [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE] error 2016-12-02T08:08:59Z Bike: you... can? 2016-12-02T08:09:03Z Bike: you mistyped something. 2016-12-02T08:09:11Z Perce: hmm, okay give me a sec 2016-12-02T08:09:13Z Bike: left a space, like ": aest" maybe. 2016-12-02T08:10:10Z Arathnim: That actually makes me curious, does anyone else (setf *print-case* :downcase) to make everything easier to read? 2016-12-02T08:10:21Z Perce: haha *shamefully admits* yes it was ": aest" 2016-12-02T08:10:27Z Perce: thanks 2016-12-02T08:10:29Z Cymew: Arathnim: You do? 2016-12-02T08:11:01Z Arathnim: Yeah, I've had that in my .sbclrc for a long time. 2016-12-02T08:11:21Z Cymew: I never got the idea. For some reason I took it as part of life that my lisp was shouting at me. 2016-12-02T08:11:39Z Cymew: It felt fitting, when I made stupid mistakes. 2016-12-02T08:12:13Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:12:25Z Cymew: Now I'm also curious, do anyone else do that? 2016-12-02T08:13:25Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:13:54Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:15:07Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T08:15:17Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:15:21Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:15:48Z aeth: I've said this before, but it's annoying that that doesn't have :invert like readtables do in the readtable case. I invert when I write an s-expression to a file and read from that file so that in almost all cases no information is lost if it goes round trip 2016-12-02T08:15:59Z aeth: Although in a REPL it shouldn't matter except in even rarer cases 2016-12-02T08:16:12Z |3b| just got used to reading all caps, and lets emacs downcase it for me when i do care (like reusing it in code) 2016-12-02T08:16:48Z aeth: I just tried it and it looks less readable 2016-12-02T08:17:33Z aeth: e.g. "The function common-lisp-user::foo is undefined.\n [Condition of type undefined-function]" 2016-12-02T08:17:47Z aeth: Stuff that would normally stand out doesn't, although bold or something could help 2016-12-02T08:18:40Z ducasse quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:19:13Z |3b|: yeah, for things like that i think i prefer all caps as well 2016-12-02T08:19:30Z |3b|: (similar to typing symbols in all caps here) 2016-12-02T08:19:38Z aeth: It's kind of a mix for me. The code is more readable, the error messages themselves aren't. 2016-12-02T08:20:51Z Cymew: I know next to nothing about how slime works, but could the slime repl be made configurable for such features, possibly? 2016-12-02T08:21:06Z ducasse joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:24:06Z aeth: It already colorizes some things. I guess it doesn't colorize stuff that's distinguishable only by its capitalization because most people keep the capitalization 2016-12-02T08:27:28Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:28:55Z ducasse quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:31:10Z ducasse joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:31:36Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:31:44Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-02T08:32:10Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:35:15Z ducasse quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-02T08:35:47Z igam joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:38:26Z ducasse joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:39:48Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:42:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:43:48Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:44:00Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:45:34Z Bike quit (Quit: n) 2016-12-02T08:47:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:47:56Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:48:00Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:49:02Z Perce: So (defun dump-db () 2016-12-02T08:49:03Z Perce: (dolist (cd *db*) 2016-12-02T08:49:05Z Perce: (format t "~{~a:~10t~a~%~}~%" cd))) 2016-12-02T08:49:28Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T08:50:03Z Perce: is the function on the website, and when I entered it in there's no problems, when i call it however i get an error of [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE] 2016-12-02T08:50:04Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:50:06Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:50:22Z loke: did you define the global variable *DB* 2016-12-02T08:50:22Z Perce: when i just do (dolist (cd *db*) 2016-12-02T08:50:23Z loke: ? 2016-12-02T08:50:24Z Perce: (format t "~{~a:~10t~a~%~}~%" cd))) 2016-12-02T08:50:27Z Perce: yes 2016-12-02T08:50:54Z Perce: without (defun dump-db () i get my database 2016-12-02T08:50:58Z loke: By the way, there is no need to use DOLIST there 2016-12-02T08:51:34Z Perce: I'm new and following along with the practical lisp website 2016-12-02T08:51:51Z Perce: this is the code for the mp3 database but its not working for me 2016-12-02T08:52:20Z loke: you can do it this way instead: (format t "~{~{~a:~10t~a~%~}~}" *db*) 2016-12-02T08:52:58Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:53:13Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:53:26Z loke: Perce: Are you editing the function definition in a file, or typing it outright in the REPL? 2016-12-02T08:53:41Z Perce: repl 2016-12-02T08:53:52Z loke: If you just type *DB*, what do you get? 2016-12-02T08:54:04Z Perce: let me try 2016-12-02T08:54:27Z shka joined #lisp 2016-12-02T08:54:28Z rashmirathi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T08:55:10Z Perce: since I have "cd" in there but never use it I throws an error with the *DB* at the end instead of "cd" 2016-12-02T08:55:28Z loke: If you just type *DB*, what do you get? 2016-12-02T08:55:49Z Perce: oh 2016-12-02T08:55:50Z Perce: ((:TITLE "Home" :ARTIST "Dixie Chicks" :RATING 9 :RIPPED T) 2016-12-02T08:55:53Z Perce: (:TITLE "Fly" :ARTIST "Dixie Chicks" :RATING 8 :RIPPED T) 2016-12-02T08:55:56Z Perce: (:TITLE "Roses" :ARTIST "Kathy Mattea" :RATING 7 :RIPPED T)) 2016-12-02T08:56:07Z Perce: i thought you meant in the function 2016-12-02T08:56:30Z loke: OK, now type (defun foo () (print *db*)) 2016-12-02T08:56:35Z Perce: okay 2016-12-02T08:56:35Z loke: and run (foo) 2016-12-02T08:58:10Z Perce: I'm so embarressed, i forgot that parentheses are needed to call a function *facepalm*, sorry to waste your time 2016-12-02T08:58:23Z Perce: i kept typing dump-db instead of (dump-db) 2016-12-02T08:58:50Z loke: Perce: You might want to read the book from the beginning rather than from the end. IIRC, the cddb stuff is the last few chapters. 2016-12-02T08:58:54Z Zhivago: Well, you could set up a symbol-macro such that dump-db evaluates (dump-db), but I wouldn't advise it. 2016-12-02T08:59:10Z loke: Zhivago: I'm not sure he's ready for that. :-) 2016-12-02T08:59:28Z Perce: i read the begining and there was no mention of it, i'm on chapter 3 2016-12-02T08:59:40Z loke: Perce: Oh, I misremembered then. 2016-12-02T08:59:41Z Perce: i should've known though since all functions had parentheses around them 2016-12-02T09:00:03Z Perce: thanks anyway and sorry again 2016-12-02T09:01:19Z loke: Perce: Same as in C. Without parens you are referring to a variable, with parens it's a function call. Only difference is that in C the parens come afterwards, like foo() 2016-12-02T09:01:38Z Zhivago: Well, and foo is a variable name in C. 2016-12-02T09:01:47Z Perce quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-12-02T09:01:50Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:02:13Z Perce joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:02:45Z loke: Well yes. C is single namespace. 2016-12-02T09:02:47Z Perce: sorry i just quit irssi, what was it you said? 2016-12-02T09:02:52Z loke: (well, almost) 2016-12-02T09:02:59Z Zhivago: C has about 5, iirc. 2016-12-02T09:03:00Z loke: Perce: I just said “Same as in C. Without parens you are referring to a variable, with parens it's a function call. Only difference is that in C the parens come afterwards, like foo()” 2016-12-02T09:03:19Z loke: Then Zhivago said “Well, and foo is a variable name in C.” 2016-12-02T09:03:23Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:03:56Z Perce: haha i know a little C but not that much, lisp is my first programming language that I'm learning 2016-12-02T09:04:42Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:05:14Z Perce: anyhow, i got work in a bit, which is why i quit irssi, see you later loke and thanks again for the help 2016-12-02T09:05:56Z Perce quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-02T09:06:08Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T09:09:53Z `JRG joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:10:53Z deank quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T09:17:20Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:23:44Z flip214: does somebody have an idea how I can convert C sources to something that's easy to traverse in lisp or perl? 2016-12-02T09:24:04Z flip214: Vacietis doesn't do "union"s and a few other things. 2016-12-02T09:24:04Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:24:17Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:26:00Z scymtym_: flip214: there used to be something called gcc-xml which now, apparently, has been succeeded by this https://github.com/CastXML/CastXML#readme 2016-12-02T09:26:49Z flip214: thanks, looking 2016-12-02T09:29:06Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T09:29:43Z Arathnim: If you don't need something as standard compliant, eudoxia's cmacro has a C parser in CL, pretty sure it gives some form of s-expr. 2016-12-02T09:29:48Z |3b|: there is also https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi/ that makes json (and sexps, though last i heard the sexp output was not complete) 2016-12-02T09:30:10Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T09:30:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://llvm.org/releases/3.3/tools/clang/docs/IntroductionToTheClangAST.html 2016-12-02T09:31:06Z |3b|: ah, i guess if clang does it directly that might be easier than the others 2016-12-02T09:31:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure if it's available in normal and/or recent builds of clang 2016-12-02T09:31:46Z |3b|: ah :( 2016-12-02T09:32:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: But it might be fairly trivial to make clang dump its ast in a lispy format. 2016-12-02T09:32:28Z |3b|: mix of xml and sexp looks interesting 2016-12-02T09:32:47Z |3b|: (and not exactly the good kind of interesting :p) 2016-12-02T09:33:28Z |3b|: and not a sexp you could READ from CL without messing with the reader a bunch 2016-12-02T09:36:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://bastian.rieck.ru/blog/posts/2015/baby_steps_libclang_ast/ 2016-12-02T09:37:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: That might be simple to tweak into a sexp printer :) 2016-12-02T09:37:14Z |3b|: yeah, that's what CastXML and c2ffi use 2016-12-02T09:37:33Z |3b|: i think clasp can parse c/c++ with it too 2016-12-02T09:38:04Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T09:38:39Z flip214: I tried the python bindings, but the old blog posts don't work any more, and there's no recent documentation 2016-12-02T09:39:03Z flip214: and they seem to give me only a cursor to walk through... I'd prefer a big tree in ram, so I can seek forth and back 2016-12-02T09:40:09Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:40:24Z gensym joined #lisp 2016-12-02T09:40:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was thinking that you might use the sample code in the blog post to write a s-expression dumper and then either extern "C" the main routine and FFI to it or run it via a pipe 2016-12-02T09:42:14Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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In a lexer it stores names of reserved words and then adds varaible names. For each lookup returns a number which is quicker to process for the parser than a string. 2016-12-02T11:33:49Z younder: Here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/333064 2016-12-02T11:33:52Z younder: Comments? 2016-12-02T11:33:54Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-12-02T11:35:30Z beach: (let ((old index)) (incf index) old) -> (prog1 index (incf index)) 2016-12-02T11:36:18Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-12-02T11:36:36Z shka: not sure if that let over defun is the best idea 2016-12-02T11:36:40Z beach: Use three semicolons for top-level comments. 2016-12-02T11:36:52Z shka: it is a bit to global for me 2016-12-02T11:37:43Z shka: and it is strange, because store on it's own has dynamic scope 2016-12-02T11:37:51Z shka: so you can rebind it, but not index 2016-12-02T11:37:56Z beach: It's overkill. (loop for name in list for index from 0 do (setf (gethash name table) index)) 2016-12-02T11:38:09Z phoe: begin and next should be FLET'd 2016-12-02T11:38:13Z phoe: if anything 2016-12-02T11:38:21Z shka: yes 2016-12-02T11:38:41Z shka: and actually beach pointed even better solution 2016-12-02T11:38:44Z phoe: ayup. 2016-12-02T11:38:54Z shka: there is no reason to have those functions in the first place 2016-12-02T11:39:53Z beach: I guess NEXT is used in another place. 2016-12-02T11:40:03Z Zhivago: younder: Does it support micropayments? 2016-12-02T11:40:11Z beach: So it needs to be a global function. 2016-12-02T11:40:14Z younder: beach: The point it lookup adds new names if they are not there already so I need to update index anyhow. 2016-12-02T11:40:40Z beach: Yes, I saw it. 2016-12-02T11:40:55Z shka: younder: perhaps wrap both index and store into one object? 2016-12-02T11:41:08Z younder: Zhivago, no, it i exists to Goedelize symbols 2016-12-02T11:42:42Z younder: Could wrap it in a class, but I need only one. That said, reuse potential for the code is low. 2016-12-02T11:43:03Z shka: i would do it anyway 2016-12-02T11:44:17Z beach: (defun lookup-symbol (name) (multiple-value-bind (value found) (gethash name *symbol-store*) (if found value (setf (gethash name *symbol-store*) (next))))) 2016-12-02T11:44:23Z beach: The FLET is overkill. 2016-12-02T11:44:42Z beach: Not to mention MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL. 2016-12-02T11:47:41Z younder: beach: probaly more efficient, but I thought giving it a name made the intent clearer. 2016-12-02T11:51:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T11:52:02Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T11:55:11Z younder: shka_, You are right, it is better to put *symbol-store* in the closure as well. Inconsitent that one is world redable and not the other. 2016-12-02T11:55:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-02T11:56:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T12:02:06Z younder: Come to thing about it I'll keep it as a global var for now simply because it is easer to 'inspect'. 2016-12-02T12:05:39Z phoe: younder: if you want inspection, DEFCLASS and put the symbol store as one of its slots. 2016-12-02T12:09:37Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T12:09:46Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T12:11:28Z Xach: and the id counter 2016-12-02T12:11:31Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T12:11:31Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-12-02T12:11:46Z Xach: there are so many options, so many 2016-12-02T12:14:29Z younder: Yes, if you want the option to use more than one namespace defclass/defmethod is the way to go. 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akorotkov quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-02T16:19:52Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:20:58Z mrottenkolber: Hi 2016-12-02T16:21:17Z mrottenkolber: anyone used inlined-generic-function? 2016-12-02T16:21:20Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:23:37Z mrottenkolber: oh wait, I am using a really outdated version, that explains things 2016-12-02T16:23:48Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:25:36Z Xach: glad to help 2016-12-02T16:26:56Z loke` left #lisp 2016-12-02T16:27:01Z loke` joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:29:04Z mrottenkolber: hmm but now I can’t get QL to fetch the new version, worked for my other systems... 2016-12-02T16:30:13Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:30:27Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T16:31:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:33:48Z mrottenkolber: and uninstall doesn’t remove the old version... 2016-12-02T16:34:22Z Xach: quicklisp versions everything at once. 2016-12-02T16:34:36Z Xach: if your dist is out of date, you have to update everything. no individual project updates. 2016-12-02T16:34:40Z mrottenkolber: I did 2016-12-02T16:34:54Z mrottenkolber: and everything is updated, except inlined-generic-function it seems 2016-12-02T16:35:05Z Xach: mrottenkolber: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "inlined-generic-function")? 2016-12-02T16:35:25Z mrottenkolber: #P"/usr/lib/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/inlined-generic-function-20160628-git/" 2016-12-02T16:35:45Z mrottenkolber: (ql:dist-version "quicklisp") → "2016-10-31" 2016-12-02T16:36:04Z Xach: It looks, then, that you have the latest one that quicklisp provides. 2016-12-02T16:36:10Z mrottenkolber: (quicklisp:system-apropos "inlined-generic-function") → # 2016-12-02T16:36:18Z mrottenkolber: I disagree^^ 2016-12-02T16:36:33Z Xach: Intriguing! Ok! 2016-12-02T16:36:42Z mrottenkolber: quickload i-g-f does nothing 2016-12-02T16:36:45Z Xach: mrottenkolber: are you up for some troubleshooting? 2016-12-02T16:36:59Z mrottenkolber: Xach: quicklisp is love, quicklisp is life! 2016-12-02T16:37:27Z mrottenkolber: (that is a yes) 2016-12-02T16:37:34Z Xach: can you trace QL-DIST:SYSTEM-DEFINITION-SEARCHER and retry the ql:where-is-system bit? 2016-12-02T16:38:32Z mrottenkolber: uhm 2016-12-02T16:38:40Z Xach: not called? 2016-12-02T16:39:10Z mrottenkolber: nope 2016-12-02T16:39:24Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T16:39:25Z mrottenkolber: some invalid cache? 2016-12-02T16:39:26Z Xach: mrottenkolber: do you have an asdf registry config that adds all of quicklisp as a tree? 2016-12-02T16:40:40Z mrottenkolber: Xach: no, I have the following: (:tree "/usr/lib/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/") 2016-12-02T16:40:51Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T16:40:55Z cibs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T16:41:03Z mrottenkolber: in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/30-quicklisp.conf 2016-12-02T16:41:09Z Xach: Ok. That will interfere with how Quicklisp normally finds software. 2016-12-02T16:41:21Z Xach: Like digging up old systems or systems that should be ignored. 2016-12-02T16:41:22Z mrottenkolber: I see... 2016-12-02T16:41:55Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-02T16:42:19Z Xach: mrottenkolber: (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")) should remove all old systems, but your tree config will still make quicklisp unable to do its own system lookup. 2016-12-02T16:43:21Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:43:24Z mrottenkolber: Xach: I use this ASDF config to build images without QL (but with QL software) 2016-12-02T16:43:29Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:43:45Z mrottenkolber: The above is a workaround for my situation? 2016-12-02T16:44:15Z Xach: I use a different option, I use ql:write-asdf-manifest-file to get a file that can index all quicklisp systems as seen by quicklisp 2016-12-02T16:44:27Z Xach: then i have a search function that knows how to use that index (it is a very simple index) 2016-12-02T16:45:36Z Xach: buildapp knows how to use the file directly 2016-12-02T16:45:46Z Xach: it shouldn't be too hard to adapt to other image-making processes 2016-12-02T16:45:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:45:57Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:46:07Z Xach: i can completely sympathize with the desire to use quicklisp systems without quicklisp, but the :tree approach is, i think, not fine enough 2016-12-02T16:46:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:46:17Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T16:46:38Z mrottenkolber: ideally I would have a solution so that ccl -n (i.e no init loaded) would see QL systems but not load QL. 2016-12-02T16:46:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T16:47:02Z Reinisch_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T16:47:11Z sword joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:47:34Z sword is now known as Guest38302 2016-12-02T16:47:42Z mrottenkolber: difficult I guess 2016-12-02T16:47:45Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T16:47:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T16:49:59Z ym joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:50:04Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:55:43Z prole joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:56:26Z mrottenkolber: that should kinda be the default? 2016-12-02T16:57:25Z mrottenkolber: Xach: could we extend QL so that it would (offer to) write an ASDF config that makes it so on install? Maybe that would require a directory current-software with the current systems symlinked in? 2016-12-02T16:57:42Z mrottenkolber: imho ASDF and QL shouldn’t conflict in this way 2016-12-02T16:57:59Z macin joined #lisp 2016-12-02T16:58:45Z macin left #lisp 2016-12-02T16:59:07Z mrottenkolber: or... (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist $dist)) after a dist upgrade by default? 2016-12-02T17:01:52Z XachX: It should do that. 2016-12-02T17:02:41Z mrottenkolber: I would really like people to git-clone my project and run make which would optionally use the dependencies provided by quicklisp. Right now I expect them to configure ASDF correctly so that it finds the dependencies, but that’s much to ask in the current state, I just realized. 2016-12-02T17:02:47Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:03:28Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:05:35Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T17:05:53Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:06:15Z mrottenkolber: Xach: you mean the clean? 2016-12-02T17:06:40Z XachX: Yes. There is a problem on lispworks that holds me back. But it should be fixed. 2016-12-02T17:06:50Z mrottenkolber: Cool 2016-12-02T17:07:57Z mrottenkolber: I like the new ASDF configuration, and it would be nice to delegate dependency management to ASDF 2016-12-02T17:08:31Z XachX: The thing with tree and conf.d and stuff? 2016-12-02T17:08:40Z mrottenkolber: yeah 2016-12-02T17:09:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:10:30Z igam quit (Quit: Be seeing you!) 2016-12-02T17:10:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:13:07Z mrottenkolber: if optionally (recommended?) QL configured it so that it would find QL systems, that would make things simple for QL users, and flexible for everyone else 2016-12-02T17:15:16Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:17:44Z Xach: What if a system they need isn't installed? 2016-12-02T17:18:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:25:34Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:26:38Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:26:43Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:28:30Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:28:32Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:29:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:29:59Z phoe: Error, I guess 2016-12-02T17:30:02Z phoe: why should it be otherwise? 2016-12-02T17:30:22Z Xach: phoe: mrottenkolber is talking about something specific he is trying and I would like his specific view. 2016-12-02T17:31:15Z phoe nods 2016-12-02T17:32:33Z rashmirathi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:33:35Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:33:47Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:34:17Z Spelndid joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:34:25Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:36:01Z mrottenkolber: Xach: what phoe said though, error. Currently I expect the user to take care of dependency management, with QL or without is his choice 2016-12-02T17:36:16Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:36:17Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-12-02T17:37:04Z BusFactor1 is now known as kruhft 2016-12-02T17:37:34Z mrottenkolber: For maximum convenience I would offer pre-built binaries once there is demand 2016-12-02T17:38:24Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-02T17:39:49Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:40:50Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:41:46Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T17:42:03Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:42:34Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T17:43:40Z mrottenkolber: the alternative would be to bundle everything, but that wouldn’t play well if you wanted to embed the system in your own system tree 2016-12-02T17:44:08Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:47:28Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T17:48:00Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T17:50:39Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:51:29Z pvaneynd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T17:51:37Z Reinisch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T17:51:42Z Reinisch_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:52:07Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:53:54Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T17:55:19Z eschulte joined #lisp 2016-12-02T17:55:42Z eschulte quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-02T17:56:04Z eschulte joined #lisp 2016-12-02T18:00:11Z Reinisch_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T18:03:00Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-12-02T18:19:18Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T18:26:08Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-02T18:35:06Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-12-02T18:58:08Z automaton joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:05:24Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T19:08:40Z automaton: how can you program in any other syntax after having understood the beauty of lisp? 2016-12-02T19:09:48Z automaton: every other syntax seems wrong to me now 2016-12-02T19:10:53Z dlowe: oh? what have you written? 2016-12-02T19:12:05Z raydeejay: what syntax? :) 2016-12-02T19:12:12Z automaton: dlowe, I recently learned lisp, I programmed a bit in java/ruby/perl before, now their sources looks very ugly to me 2016-12-02T19:12:41Z oleo: https://youtu.be/4CAPMS93tPw 2016-12-02T19:12:51Z edgar-rft: I agree that e.g. english syntax looks completely wrong :-) 2016-12-02T19:13:00Z dlowe: automaton: I see. What are you planning to write in lisp now? 2016-12-02T19:14:13Z automaton: dlowe, I'm in university now, so I might build a simple website for an exam 2016-12-02T19:14:33Z raydeejay: I am currently considering some sort of tool for terraria 2016-12-02T19:16:01Z mjl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:17:57Z automaton: raydeejay, you can extend terraria with lisp? 2016-12-02T19:19:53Z raydeejay: well I guess that you could make a mod that exposed some stuff or something 2016-12-02T19:20:20Z raydeejay: I am thinking more on the lines of deleting all copper coins and mushrooms left behind, single blocks floating in the air, that kind of stuff 2016-12-02T19:20:22Z raydeejay: cleaning up a world 2016-12-02T19:20:58Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T19:23:48Z automaton quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-02T19:24:15Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:26:26Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:26:28Z whartung quit (Quit: whartung) 2016-12-02T19:28:34Z whartung joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:29:16Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:29:21Z dcluna joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:30:14Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:32:41Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:34:01Z LyndsySimon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:01Z gz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:01Z splittist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:02Z danlentz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:02Z makufiru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:02Z XachX quit (Broken pipe) 2016-12-02T19:34:02Z billstclair quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:02Z XachX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:02Z alms_clozure quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:02Z NhanH quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:34:03Z mbrock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:37:08Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T19:38:28Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:40:35Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:40:43Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2016-12-02T19:40:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:40:54Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:41:14Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:42:42Z Orion3k quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T19:43:11Z splittist joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:45:33Z baconicsynergy joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:47:59Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:48:33Z Xach: raydeejay: cool 2016-12-02T19:48:45Z Xach: raydeejay: my son is very interested in terraria (and creativerse) 2016-12-02T19:49:31Z gz_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:49:36Z raydeejay: I picked it back recently and there are lots of interesting things 2016-12-02T19:49:43Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T19:49:45Z raydeejay: and weird "wiringtronics" 2016-12-02T19:49:46Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:49:47Z raydeejay: :D 2016-12-02T19:50:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:51:51Z LyndsySimon joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:51:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:55:12Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:56:34Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-02T19:57:58Z avalokite joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:58:03Z avalokite quit (Changing host) 2016-12-02T19:58:03Z avalokite joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:58:53Z AlphaAtom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T19:58:55Z makufiru joined #lisp 2016-12-02T19:59:16Z avalokite quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-02T20:00:11Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:01:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T20:02:07Z danlentz joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:02:24Z mbrock joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:02:25Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:02:35Z billstclair joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:04:01Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:04:02Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-12-02T20:04:53Z XachX joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:07:11Z akkad: how radioactive is this? https://gist.github.com/93acb8afa8cb6acf993e640d3186503a 2016-12-02T20:07:59Z jasom: akkad: I don't understand the question 2016-12-02T20:08:48Z jasom: It's a white background, so I suppose when viewed on a CRT there would be a slight increase in x-ray radiation emitted by the tube. 2016-12-02T20:08:50Z Xach: more camelcaps than the mind can comfortably comprehend 2016-12-02T20:09:24Z jasom: oh, I missed the camel-case in the class names 2016-12-02T20:09:38Z akkad: oh that is from the fields aws provides 2016-12-02T20:10:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lisp automatically upcases symbols 2016-12-02T20:10:24Z akkad: haha sorry did not mean the full file. 2016-12-02T20:10:25Z jasom: akkad: it's typical to convert names from fooBarBaz to foo-bar-baz when translating from other languages 2016-12-02T20:10:34Z akkad: had one specific method in mind 2016-12-02T20:10:42Z akkad: k 2016-12-02T20:11:55Z axion: what is even the purpose of line 264? and why is 263 an IF? 2016-12-02T20:12:01Z jasom: otherwise you can't tell the difference between expertsExchange and expertSexChange when not using a case-inverting reader. 2016-12-02T20:12:31Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:13:47Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-02T20:14:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: akkad: why don't you simplify the first several classes? Either by making a base class that declares the value slot and accessor or something else? 2016-12-02T20:14:24Z axion: on closer inspection, everywhere IF is used, there is only 1 condition. 2016-12-02T20:15:05Z axion: err form 2016-12-02T20:18:29Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:19:24Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:22:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:23:28Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:23:48Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:24:24Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2016-12-02T20:30:31Z PuercoPop left #lisp 2016-12-02T20:33:51Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-02T20:34:14Z Tex_Nick left #lisp 2016-12-02T20:39:01Z akkad: Fiddlerwoaroof: good idea 2016-12-02T20:39:35Z akkad: Very much a wip 2016-12-02T20:39:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:40:05Z jasom: does sbcl have a way of recording the maximum GC pause over some period of time? 2016-12-02T20:42:07Z jasom: there's *after-gc-hook* but no *before-gc-hook* (the latter of which would only be safe if the code did not allocate) 2016-12-02T20:42:52Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:43:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:44:35Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:46:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: would it be crazy to open the sbcl sources in slime and add a *before-gc-hook* ? 2016-12-02T20:46:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/slime/emacs/ 2016-12-02T20:47:38Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:48:20Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T20:48:37Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:49:52Z jasom: The gc code is written in C 2016-12-02T20:50:11Z jasom: and I can add the instrumentation there, but didn't want to duplicate effort 2016-12-02T20:51:57Z phoe: jasom: that's what I've been thinking about, too 2016-12-02T20:52:02Z phoe: hooks just before GC hits 2016-12-02T20:52:23Z phoe: I'd gladly have it send something to logs, for example 2016-12-02T20:52:36Z phoe: so I know when GC begins and when it ends 2016-12-02T20:52:58Z kruhft: phoe: might be crazy 2016-12-02T20:53:17Z huracans joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:53:21Z kruhft: phoe: as the gc might be called when out of memory, so how would your code be able to run without doing a gc first? 2016-12-02T20:53:26Z foom: we have a patch for that already. 2016-12-02T20:53:35Z foom: submitted it upstream at one point, it was rejected cause it's dangerous 2016-12-02T20:53:47Z foom: But, YOLO. :) 2016-12-02T20:54:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:57:24Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-02T20:58:24Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T20:58:32Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-12-02T20:58:42Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:00:41Z bungoman joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:01:26Z Houl joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:01:57Z phoe: kruhft: well 2016-12-02T21:01:58Z phoe: uh 2016-12-02T21:02:11Z phoe: ignore the hooks when GC is called because of OOM 2016-12-02T21:02:20Z phoe: and somehow indicate that for the GC after hooks 2016-12-02T21:03:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T21:04:33Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-02T21:04:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, you could preinitilize a variable of an appropriate type for a timestamp, update it in *before-gc-hook* and do the actual logging in *after-gc-hook* 2016-12-02T21:06:51Z jasom: you can also just inspect the disassembly to make sure your hook doesn't cons 2016-12-02T21:07:06Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:07:13Z jasom: setf of a simple-array of known type will not cons, for example. 2016-12-02T21:07:20Z phoe: ^ 2016-12-02T21:07:25Z phoe: I'd actually do it that way 2016-12-02T21:07:44Z phoe: if any function in before-gc-hooks conses, undefined behaviour 2016-12-02T21:08:22Z jasom: IIRC T had the garbage collector implemented entirely in T, carefully coded to not cons. 2016-12-02T21:09:28Z phoe: T? 2016-12-02T21:09:34Z jasom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_(programming_language) 2016-12-02T21:09:52Z kruhft: And old lisp by Guy Steele I think 2016-12-02T21:09:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:10:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T21:10:26Z jasom: It's a scheme that borrowed from lisp 2016-12-02T21:10:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/util/lang/scheme/impl/t/ 2016-12-02T21:10:47Z jasom: writtem by the same people that later did scheme48 2016-12-02T21:10:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is that it? https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/util/lang/scheme/impl/t/0.html 2016-12-02T21:11:11Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:11:24Z jasom: yes 2016-12-02T21:11:28Z terpri joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:11:41Z jasom: oh, not all the same people; a subset of the T people worked on scheme48 2016-12-02T21:11:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool maybe I'll try to read through it's code someday. 2016-12-02T21:14:50Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T21:16:33Z baconicsynergy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-02T21:16:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:18:33Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:18:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://gist.github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/06bb902800a9275b15f8129e75faf446 2016-12-02T21:19:40Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:21:52Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T21:22:07Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:23:29Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:24:45Z phoe: hey, this is some sane lisp 2016-12-02T21:24:51Z phoe: I can read it 2016-12-02T21:25:36Z jasom: note that it uses lambda in code that is disallowed from CONSing 2016-12-02T21:25:56Z jasom: *that* requires some serious knowledge of your compiler works 2016-12-02T21:26:34Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-02T21:26:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suppose the compiler uses continuation passing style and then just inlines everything, or something? 2016-12-02T21:26:57Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:31:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T21:34:29Z kruhft: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, the point of T was that it was written based on Rabbit which was a compiler that converted to CPS 2016-12-02T21:34:31Z kruhft: IIRC 2016-12-02T21:34:47Z bungoman quit 2016-12-02T21:35:17Z phoe: jasom: LAMBDA conses? 2016-12-02T21:35:18Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:35:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to create a new closure 2016-12-02T21:36:02Z phoe: oh! right. 2016-12-02T21:36:37Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T21:39:31Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-02T21:44:21Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:49:30Z aeth: jasom: oh, *that* is how Scheme48 was written in 48 hours 2016-12-02T21:49:38Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-02T21:49:45Z aeth: It's always easier to write something in 48 hours when you've written something very close to it before. 2016-12-02T21:49:55Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:49:55Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-02T21:51:20Z MrMc joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:52:08Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T21:53:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:53:17Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T21:55:05Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:55:44Z MrMc: How do I concatenate integers to form one integer eg (concatenate-intagers #xCA #xFE) --> #xCAFE 2016-12-02T21:56:44Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-02T21:58:29Z younder: #xCAFEBABE perhaps (java bytecode file signature) 2016-12-02T21:58:53Z bungoman joined #lisp 2016-12-02T21:58:59Z TMA: MrMc: dpb 2016-12-02T22:00:02Z younder: with Bit-AND and ASH 2016-12-02T22:00:34Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:01:41Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:04:42Z Spelndid quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-02T22:06:45Z MrMc: TMA:How do I use dpd in my case what is newbyte and what does the byte spec look like 2016-12-02T22:07:17Z fourier: ^what younder said 2016-12-02T22:09:30Z fourier: regardless of the language, it is or and sh operation. in CL it is (format t "0x~X" (logior (ash #xCA 8) #xFE)) 2016-12-02T22:09:38Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-02T22:09:50Z fourier: MrMc: run in your repl 2016-12-02T22:10:55Z MrMc: fourier:thanks 2016-12-02T22:11:01Z bungoman quit 2016-12-02T22:12:08Z younder: (format nil "~X" (logior (ash #xCA 24) (ash #xFE 16) (ash #xBA 8) #xBE)) 2016-12-02T22:12:51Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-02T22:13:02Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:13:26Z fourier: MrMc: in C it will be something like printf("0x%x\n", (0xCA << 8) | 0xFE); 2016-12-02T22:13:46Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T22:14:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:17:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:17:40Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:18:58Z _death: MrMc: to create a byte-spec you use the function BYTE.. e.g., (byte 8 0) means 8 bits at position 0.. dpb returns an integer that has the bits at the byte position replaced with newbyte. so (dpb #xFE (byte 8 0) 0) => #xFE.. (dpb #xCA (byte 8 8) (dpb #xFE (byte 8 0) 0)) #xCAFE 2016-12-02T22:19:16Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:19:23Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T22:21:48Z MrMc: Thanks guys 2016-12-02T22:24:08Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T22:26:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:26:20Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T22:28:02Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:28:24Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T22:28:43Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:29:04Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-02T22:29:43Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T22:33:49Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:34:20Z Reinisch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T22:36:22Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:38:22Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-02T22:38:58Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: well more specifically *sometimes* you have to create a new closure; othertimes you can avoid that, which is what allows using lambda in the GC. 2016-12-02T22:39:49Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:39:50Z jasom: but yes, T was a fully CPS, they wanted to test Steele's claim that Scheme could be the basis of a practical, performant language environment 2016-12-02T22:40:23Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-02T22:41:20Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:41:55Z gilez quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-12-02T22:42:50Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-02T22:43:43Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-02T22:45:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I suppose you don't have to create a closure if you don't modify any bindings inside the lambda 2016-12-02T22:45:40Z jasom: And there is yet another way to do it: (let ((x #FE)) (setf (ldb (byte 8 8) x) #ca) x) => #xCAFE 2016-12-02T22:46:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or something like that, basically as long as the lambda is a pure function) 2016-12-02T22:46:46Z jasom: right 2016-12-02T22:47:08Z jasom: so if functions are immutable in your language you can make it a compile-time constant 2016-12-02T22:49:09Z jasom: And if you're trying to obfuscate your code, you can always: (parse-integer (format nil "~@{~2,'0X~}" #xCA #xFE #x0A #xBE) :radix 16) 2016-12-02T22:50:04Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:01:49Z _death: old lisps had explode functions.. so how about http://paste.lisp.org/display/333112 :) 2016-12-02T23:02:28Z MrMc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T23:03:47Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:04:27Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:05:04Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:06:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:07:55Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:08:47Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T23:09:08Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:10:23Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-02T23:11:59Z Houl quit (Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist) 2016-12-02T23:13:25Z aeth: hmm, interesting, Greek has two lower case sigmas, and one upper case sigma but apparently SBCL (and maybe all of Unicode? idk) gets around this edge case of Unicode by not upcasing final sigma to capital sigma in string-upcase, which would make string-upcase and string-downcase not round-trip, which would presumably break assumptions for an :invert readtable-case 2016-12-02T23:14:18Z aeth: (string-upcase "σ") vs. (string-upcase "ς") 2016-12-02T23:15:03Z aeth: So (string= foo (string-downcase (string-upcase foo)) holds for at least that edge case that I can think of. 2016-12-02T23:15:09Z Bike: «As briefly discussed in Unicode Technical Note #26,[16] "In terms of implementation issues, any attempt at a unification of Latin, Greek, and Cyrillic would wreak havoc [and] make casing operations an unholy mess, in effect making all casing operations context sensitive […]"» 2016-12-02T23:15:48Z Bike: i d on't remember the details, but unicode casing definitely doesn't round trip 2016-12-02T23:16:03Z aeth: interestingly, though, SBCL's assumption makes this NIL: (string-equal "Σ" "ς") 2016-12-02T23:16:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Linus Torvalds has a rant about HFS's (?) case-insensitivity 2016-12-02T23:16:36Z aeth: even though the Greek keyboard I used to type ς and σ has Σ and Σ produced from holding shift for both those keys 2016-12-02T23:16:46Z Bike: http://unicode.org/faq/casemap_charprop.html 2016-12-02T23:16:55Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-02T23:17:08Z fourier: aeth: apparently LW7 produces nil here as well 2016-12-02T23:17:13Z aeth: I'm wondering if (string-equal "Σ" "ς") => NIL is actually a bug on SBCL's part, or if the Greek keyboard is a bit incorrect 2016-12-02T23:17:16Z Bike: ah, here. 2016-12-02T23:17:17Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:17:28Z Bike: "Are case mappings reversibl?" "No, case mapping lsoes information" 2016-12-02T23:17:39Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:17:42Z jasom: aeth: not a bug 2016-12-02T23:17:43Z Bike: and apparently uppercasing does not remove all lowercase letters 2016-12-02T23:17:44Z aeth: Bike: right, but the case that I always think of for losing information does *not* in SBCL 2016-12-02T23:17:46Z Bike: excellent stuff 2016-12-02T23:17:52Z jasom: " might have an implementation-defined behavior for non-simple characters. " 2016-12-02T23:18:07Z Reinisch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T23:18:17Z fourier: aeth: same with clozure cl 2016-12-02T23:18:26Z _death: funny when "bug" is translated to "nonconformant" 2016-12-02T23:18:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, it seems like that makes string-equal significantly less useful. 2016-12-02T23:18:46Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T23:18:51Z aeth: So how do I go about implementing a simple client-server text-based chat in portable(ish) CL that avoids encoding nightmares? 2016-12-02T23:18:57Z jasom: right, could be a bug, but it is allowed by the standard _death 2016-12-02T23:19:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because, whenever you want to test greek strings for semantic equality, you have to special case sigma 2016-12-02T23:19:41Z jasom: aeth: I've been meaning to make sb-unicode portable; that right there would go a long way; cl-unicode might have enough for you though. 2016-12-02T23:19:48Z _death: jasom: yep.. and casing is complex enough that the expectation may be too simplistic 2016-12-02T23:19:56Z aeth: Text chat, I can probably try to do myself because it's fairly simple besides Unicode itself. Voice chat is also technically a basically required feature for modern MP games... I might just CFFI a library there and give up. 2016-12-02T23:20:13Z jasom: sb-unicode provides a lot more unicode data than cl-unicode 2016-12-02T23:20:14Z aeth: Text chat's something that I would be making as a separate library, though, for non-game uses as well. 2016-12-02T23:20:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: For some reason, I thought people generally just used something like Teamspeak/mumble for voice chat in games 2016-12-02T23:20:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: For text chat, just run an IRC server :) 2016-12-02T23:20:57Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:21:02Z Bike: aeth: well, what do you want to do with the text? babel and all is fine with the encoding part 2016-12-02T23:21:17Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Usually for games that have built-in voice chat, people can organize teampseak (almost always that, unfortunately) separately for a smaller clique, but the server itself uses the built-in thing 2016-12-02T23:21:29Z jasom: I also have a portable utf-8 decoder that uses fast-io that is nearly as fast as sbcl's implementation (sbcl manages to make a branchless statement where my code generates branches, and misprediction causes nearly all of the difference in my benchmarks) 2016-12-02T23:22:05Z jasom: but with chat, you can often get away with just storing it as bytes 2016-12-02T23:22:18Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:22:26Z aeth: Bike: what I need to do with text is actually *quite* complicated because it's being built directly on cl-sdl2 + cl-opengl 2016-12-02T23:22:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: yeah, I've never really played video games, except for roguelikes, so I have no idea what the expectations are. 2016-12-02T23:22:55Z aeth: Bike: but "everything" is probably not too far from the truth as far as requirements go, unfortunately. 2016-12-02T23:22:57Z Guest26 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-12-02T23:23:02Z Bike: that's a lot of things 2016-12-02T23:23:12Z aeth: yes, unfortunately. 2016-12-02T23:23:27Z Bike: like... do you need to case map? do you need sbcl string-equal to work differently with greek? 2016-12-02T23:23:58Z aeth: Bike: Well, I just found out that I can't really necessarily trust string-equal 2016-12-02T23:24:28Z Bike: so that's a yes? 2016-12-02T23:24:39Z _death: (sb-unicode:unicode-equal "Σ" "ς") ==> t 2016-12-02T23:24:48Z Bike: do you need to... wow, i don't know what half this shit is. determine the hangul syllable type of characters 2016-12-02T23:25:03Z aeth: _death: yes 2016-12-02T23:25:15Z aeth: _death: I found that already, but you beat me to writing it here 2016-12-02T23:25:24Z Bike: "determines whether STRING1 and STRING2 could be visually confusable according to the IDNA table" oh, neat 2016-12-02T23:25:26Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-02T23:26:58Z aeth: Fortunately a lot of the requirements can be fairly easily separated. E.g. text processing in menus/etc of the small GUI in OpenGL vs text processing in chat. 2016-12-02T23:27:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish people just used a 4 byte encoding of unicode. 2016-12-02T23:27:32Z Bike: this isn't really about encodings 2016-12-02T23:27:35Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:27:44Z Bike: and sbcl does use utf-32, so, merry christmas 2016-12-02T23:27:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I was just thinking about how difficult it is to sanely read unicode over a socket 2016-12-02T23:28:11Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: is '4 byte' roughly equivalent to CL's (unsigned byte 32)? 2016-12-02T23:28:26Z Bike: should be precisely equivalent 2016-12-02T23:28:37Z jasom: unless your bytes are 9 bits 2016-12-02T23:28:38Z aeth: depends on the byte size! 2016-12-02T23:28:48Z _death: (unsigned-byte 32) is a type covering 32-bit bytes 2016-12-02T23:28:48Z aeth: bah, beaten twice to a statement in less than 5 minutes 2016-12-02T23:28:49Z Bike: i mean, i assumed fiddler meant utf-32 2016-12-02T23:28:54Z jasom: 4 octet is precisely equivalent to (unsigned-byte 32) 2016-12-02T23:28:57Z Bike: ok i know 2016-12-02T23:29:07Z Bike: please do not tell me about word sizes on the vax 2016-12-02T23:29:19Z jasom: wasn't vax a 32-bit machine? 2016-12-02T23:29:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Pointers on IBM i machines are 128bit values... 2016-12-02T23:29:35Z Bike: oh god i'm sorry 2016-12-02T23:29:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because they can point to anything on any of the attached storage, as well as to anything in memory. 2016-12-02T23:30:12Z _death: those are words.. byte sizes I've read about are 6, 7, 8, 9 iirc 2016-12-02T23:30:21Z younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-02T23:30:25Z jasom: 5 2016-12-02T23:30:48Z jasom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code 2016-12-02T23:31:01Z aeth: So (unsigned byte 32) emulates a 32-bit byte with 4 8-bit bytes? Or is that a stupid question... 2016-12-02T23:31:17Z _death: jasom: nice 2016-12-02T23:31:22Z Bike: no it just... means integers between 0 and 2^32 - 1 2016-12-02T23:32:01Z aeth: I would love to run SBCL on a 65-bit machine so I can have 64-bit fixnums. 2016-12-02T23:32:03Z Bike: don't have to worry about underlying storage or whatever right off 2016-12-02T23:32:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Didn't Symbolics lisp machines have weird byte sizes? 2016-12-02T23:32:20Z _death: jasom: I have a bookmark http://worldpowersystems.com/archives/codes/#BAUDOT 2016-12-02T23:32:22Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:32:26Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: if I had to guess, I would guess 6, since that's what the PDPs had 2016-12-02T23:32:55Z lemonpie: wha? pdps had 8 or 9 bit bytes 2016-12-02T23:33:19Z jasom: _death: also the reason why a 16550 will support 5 bit bytes with 1.5 stop bits... 2016-12-02T23:33:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd think you'd want a 2^n+1-3 size byte for lisp 2016-12-02T23:33:37Z foom: I wish the .com registry would run confusable-p over their domain registrations... :( 2016-12-02T23:33:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Since it'd be preferable to use tagged values 2016-12-02T23:33:49Z Bike: yeah, it's neat that there's a defined relation for confusability 2016-12-02T23:33:59Z jasom: lemonpie: was it 6 or 8 bits per character on the pdp-6/10? 2016-12-02T23:34:06Z lemonpie: 9 2016-12-02T23:34:08Z jasom: er 6 or 9 2016-12-02T23:34:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: People used to domain squat by replacing o with omicron and the like 2016-12-02T23:34:23Z foom: For some reason, it's considered just fine to register names in .com that are *obviously* for the purpose of confusing people 2016-12-02T23:34:24Z lemonpie: the pdp-8 was 12-bit, it might have had a 6-bit byte, i guess 2016-12-02T23:34:25Z Bike: full unicode functionality has neat stuff like that too. 2016-12-02T23:34:49Z kregol joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:34:49Z jasom must have misremembered. I thought that the reason a lot of lisp symbols were truncated at 6 characters was to fit in a single word. 2016-12-02T23:34:51Z foom: e.g. using "latin small capital letter" 2016-12-02T23:34:52Z Bike: (digit-value cirno-nine), bam, 9 2016-12-02T23:36:17Z jasom: foom: you can sue to have it removed if you have a trademark. 2016-12-02T23:36:21Z kregol: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-12-02T23:36:43Z foom: jasom: sure. but they shouldn't allow it *at all*. Other TLDs have rules about this... 2016-12-02T23:37:47Z younder joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:38:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeuth: you should just use EBCDIC for your text chat :) 2016-12-02T23:38:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/aeuth/aeth/ 2016-12-02T23:38:57Z Arathnim: If I wanted to have a hook in sbcl's packages so that it was called on top level forms in loaded files and the repl, is there a single place that would be? 2016-12-02T23:39:35Z aeth: Maybe I should just give up on #lispgames and just write RPGs in RPG or something... 2016-12-02T23:39:35Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:39:52Z Xach: Arathnim: *macroexpand-hook* is one useful hook 2016-12-02T23:40:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can get a free account on an IBM iSeries from pub400.com :) 2016-12-02T23:40:04Z Xach: Arathnim: I use it to display progress bars during compilation in quicklisp... 2016-12-02T23:40:22Z aeth: RPG probably supports EBCDIC 2016-12-02T23:40:39Z aeth: meanwhile sbcl supports this whole Unicode mess of a thing 2016-12-02T23:40:45Z Xach: Pretty much every toplevel form in a typical file is a macro 2016-12-02T23:41:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, that's what the dots are 2016-12-02T23:41:18Z Xach: Except REQUIRE...what are some others that escape my mind? 2016-12-02T23:41:18Z Arathnim: But not from things that are evaluated in a repl. 2016-12-02T23:41:32Z foom: Or, here's a nice one too: normal letter "i" followed by COMBINING DOT ABOVE. :) 2016-12-02T23:41:38Z Xach: Arathnim: true, much less typical in the repl. 2016-12-02T23:41:57Z Xach: Arathnim: What is the goal? Maybe there's another way to achieve it? 2016-12-02T23:41:59Z foom: looks in every way identical to an i. But, sure enough, you can register it as a separate domain name! 2016-12-02T23:42:20Z younder: There are 26 primitive forms in CL if i remeber 'Lisp in small pieces correctly' 2016-12-02T23:42:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: foom: I think idna handles that, though 2016-12-02T23:42:43Z Arathnim: Currently, I'm intercepting them right after reading, in load-as-source and repl-read-form, I'm just wondering if there's a way that doesn't involve redefining sb-fasl functions. 2016-12-02T23:42:49Z Bike: younder: "special forms". they are not really "primitive". 2016-12-02T23:43:18Z jasom: younder: several special forms can be implemented purely as macros in terms of other special forms (and implementing special forms as macros is explicitly allowed by the standard) 2016-12-02T23:43:23Z Arathnim: The primary goal is to make them avaliable for code to operate on. 2016-12-02T23:43:38Z Xach: Arathnim: what kind of code? 2016-12-02T23:43:46Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:43:49Z Jammyham quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:43:54Z younder: well 'primitives'. That is they are not subdivided up further. You might prefer atomic forms. 2016-12-02T23:43:58Z jasom: younder: let* can obviously be implemented purely in terms of let, for an obvious example, and let itsef can be implemented with lambda. 2016-12-02T23:44:17Z prole quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-12-02T23:44:29Z Arathnim: Any kind. Currently, I'm implementing nicer forms of the underscore lambda macro, and making a nice shorthand for explicit lambdas, which doesn't require any special prefix. 2016-12-02T23:44:40Z jasom: younder: well macros that implement standard forms are permitted to expand to code that contains primitives that are not in the spec. 2016-12-02T23:44:51Z Bike: younder: right, that is not actually true, as jasom is explaining 2016-12-02T23:45:08Z Arathnim: (x y -> (+ x y)), and similar syntax extensions. 2016-12-02T23:45:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Arathnim: it sounds like you might want reader macros? 2016-12-02T23:45:33Z jasom: younder: e.g. I could have a lisp with a primitive "loop-forever" and implement loop in terms of that rather than tagbody/go. 2016-12-02T23:46:30Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:46:30Z Xach: Arathnim: ah. 2016-12-02T23:46:39Z aeth: I love that CL has tagbody and go 2016-12-02T23:46:41Z Arathnim: Doing this kind of work in the reader would be a lot harder. Additionally, it clobbers a value symbol unless I make sure it's not bound before the form starts, which requires code walking. 2016-12-02T23:46:49Z aeth: No one should use it, but I love that it's there. 2016-12-02T23:47:00Z jasom: aeth: state machines? 2016-12-02T23:47:46Z aeth: jasom: I can (macroexpand-1 '(do ...)) and several other things into let + tagbody + go, at least in SBCL, and it has been useful before 2016-12-02T23:47:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: tagbody is useful for pseudo-TCO 2016-12-02T23:48:08Z aeth: Although in almost every case, I directly write the macro or whatever to do because it's marginally higher level 2016-12-02T23:48:14Z aeth: Including psuedo-TCO 2016-12-02T23:48:26Z jasom: aeth: I was saying that using tagbody for statemachines makes sense 2016-12-02T23:48:34Z aeth: I'm sure there's something that can't be expressed in a higher level form that (probably) macroexpands eventually to tagbody+go 2016-12-02T23:49:25Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-02T23:49:50Z kruhft quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:50:08Z aeth: jasom: aren't there other ways to do that in CL? 2016-12-02T23:50:14Z aeth: Although I guess tagbody+go is probably faster 2016-12-02T23:50:29Z jasom: though I would likely *generate* that rather than writing it directly. Hand written state machines are for losers. 2016-12-02T23:50:41Z Bike: there are plenty of ways to do anything, tagbody is just a more convenient expression than do or loop or whatever sometimes 2016-12-02T23:50:50Z aeth: jasom: right, tagbody+go is a nice direct or indirect target 2016-12-02T23:51:39Z whartung: CDC machines had 60-bit words, and their text was either 6-bit, or 12-bit. (for lower case, you prefixed teh character with ^, so ^A was a) 2016-12-02T23:51:49Z aeth: Hmm... I wonder if it would be desirable to implement a full scripting language in a tagbody, actually. 2016-12-02T23:52:34Z whartung: good times printing out a mixed case file on the printer with out the proper setting or you ^E^N^D^E^D ^U^P ^W^I^T^H ^P^A^G^E^S ^O^F ^T^H^I^S 2016-12-02T23:53:11Z aeth: that's exactly the opposite of how case should work... 2016-12-02T23:53:11Z younder: Well scheeme makes do with 6 atomic forms and uses (tail) recursion to implement loops. 2016-12-02T23:53:19Z aeth: ^a becoming A would probably break fewer things 2016-12-02T23:53:30Z Zhivago: Scheme has a primitive DO operator. 2016-12-02T23:53:49Z aeth: Zhivago: no, in Scheme, do is written as a macro on top of tail recursion right in the spec iirc 2016-12-02T23:54:05Z aeth: It might depend on the version, though 2016-12-02T23:54:17Z aeth: It's definitely that way in r7rs 2016-12-02T23:54:24Z jasom: Oh, and obligatory lisp primitive page: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 2016-12-02T23:54:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:55:52Z aeth: Zhivago: r7rs section 7.3 "Derived expression types" (i.e. not primitive). page 71 2016-12-02T23:55:54Z jasom: it includes an implementation of lisp using only funcall, lambda, not and get 2016-12-02T23:55:59Z Zhivago: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/ 2016-12-02T23:56:01Z jasom: s/lisp/if 2016-12-02T23:56:07Z Zhivago: Ok, perhaps r7rs has moved on. 2016-12-02T23:56:12Z aeth: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs.pdf 2016-12-02T23:56:35Z aeth: Scheme is still improving its flaws via new versions of its standard 2016-12-02T23:56:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-12-02T23:56:55Z Bike: r5rs seems to have do as derived as well 2016-12-02T23:57:22Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-02T23:57:36Z whartung: Scheme is the epitome of "those who do not use CL are doomed to reimplement it" 2016-12-02T23:57:40Z Bike: well, soon enough we'll be able to move back to the real minimum of computer languages, anyway: search and replace 2016-12-02T23:57:46Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:57:47Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised, r7rs-small is very close to r5rs because the controversy of r6rs being a very different and unpopular standard 2016-12-02T23:57:51Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-02T23:58:03Z aeth: So in a sense, r7rs-small is kind of one step forward two steps back on purpose 2016-12-02T23:58:48Z aeth: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.3 2016-12-02T23:58:54Z aeth: r5rs has it as a dervied expression type here, too 2016-12-02T23:59:12Z aeth: It is confusing because it appears twice (in both standards) and it's only really clearly derived there, much later in the document 2016-12-02T23:59:24Z aeth: (do is the last form in that section) 2016-12-02T23:59:53Z whartung: someday, the 2 column journal format will go the way of the dodo... 2016-12-03T00:00:45Z Zhivago: Hopefully they'll reinvent CL better, because the current CL is getting pretty shabby. 2016-12-03T00:01:23Z Zhivago: Ah well, it looks like they haven't gotten rid of char yet, which is a bad sign. 2016-12-03T00:02:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:02:26Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:02:45Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:02:45Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:03:16Z PosterdatiMobile joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:03:19Z _PosterdatiMobil joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:03:24Z _PosterdatiMobil quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-03T00:03:29Z aeth: The future is probably something closer to a CLR or a JVM... both of them are centered around a particularly boring and dogmatically OOP language, though. 2016-12-03T00:03:36Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-03T00:04:01Z aeth: And looking at WASM, it looks like the web does everything worse still... :p 2016-12-03T00:04:04Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:04:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojure isn't too bad, even if it has too much syntax in some plces and not enough structure in others. 2016-12-03T00:05:15Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:05:53Z aeth: A lot of the limitations of Clojure are due to the JVM, though, afaik. 2016-12-03T00:06:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, it can't do proper TCO for one 2016-12-03T00:06:29Z aeth: It would be hard to make a common system for even just CL and Scheme, though. nil vs #f and '() 2016-12-03T00:06:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: On the other hand, it has an amazing GC :) 2016-12-03T00:06:45Z whartung: TCO? 2016-12-03T00:07:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Tail call optimization. I've read that something about the JVM makes it difficult or impossible. 2016-12-03T00:07:20Z aeth: whartung: in Scheme, (define (infinite-loop) (infinite-loop)) 2016-12-03T00:07:23Z whartung: ah yes 2016-12-03T00:07:35Z aeth: If you do the CL equivalent, where there's no TCO, you blow the call stack 2016-12-03T00:07:41Z whartung: si 2016-12-03T00:07:43Z aeth: sometimes there is though 2016-12-03T00:09:30Z aeth: What I'd love to see is a "systems" Lisp (no GC, closer to the metal in terms of abstractions, easy to be cache-friendly, etc.) used to help implement a common runtime for CL, Scheme, and other worthy languages. 2016-12-03T00:09:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, you could always try to resurrect PreScheme or Qi 2016-12-03T00:10:04Z aeth: prescheme? 2016-12-03T00:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreScheme 2016-12-03T00:10:37Z whartung: There's some "Bare metal" "lispy" things floating around in the interwebs 2016-12-03T00:10:51Z aeth: none took off, which is unfortunate 2016-12-03T00:11:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's in here, I think: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/util/lang/scheme/impl/scheme48/0.html 2016-12-03T00:11:02Z aeth: I think it needs some sort of novel alternative to GC 2016-12-03T00:11:07Z aeth: there are some of those 2016-12-03T00:11:14Z whartung: mark and release! 2016-12-03T00:11:24Z whartung: Like UCSD Pascal! 2016-12-03T00:11:25Z Zhivago: It's a fair amount of work for very little return. 2016-12-03T00:11:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I saw this floating around reddit: https://github.com/wolfgangj/bone-lisp 2016-12-03T00:11:40Z aeth: C isn't a particularly good portable assembly, but it's what people are for the most part stuck with. 2016-12-03T00:12:00Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:12:16Z Zhivago: It always ends up being simpler to do the very low level stuff in something like C which is set up for it and already ported everywhere, rather than re-inventing C and then needing to port it everywhere yourself, only with different parenthesization. 2016-12-03T00:12:57Z aeth: Zhivago: the types would be much saner, and the language would still be much safer. It would probably compete more directly with Rust 2016-12-03T00:13:16Z aeth: C is a nice language to get pwned by malicious users with 2016-12-03T00:13:25Z aeth: Even just including bounds checking by default would be a major improvement 2016-12-03T00:13:27Z Zhivago: You don't really want a portable assembly for most of the low-level stuff. Mostly what you want is what is required to set up a managed memory system suitable for GC. 2016-12-03T00:14:29Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:14:46Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:14:50Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:14:59Z whartung: At some level, you just need to write "cons-less" code against static structures. That's not impossible, but you certainly have to catch yourself. But if you had a away to stack-cons locally within the functions, that could make thing easier at the local level. 2016-12-03T00:16:07Z Zhivago: And then write byte-level layout descriptors, and then ... 2016-12-03T00:16:19Z whartung: ez mode -- how hard can it be? 2016-12-03T00:16:40Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:16:49Z Zhivago: ... make sure that it is either partitioned away from all of the managed code, or is compatible with the managed code while implementing the management. 2016-12-03T00:16:52Z aeth: Afaik, you can write cons-less code against static structures in CL (well, some implementations of CL). Modifying upgraded vectors. 2016-12-03T00:16:58Z kregol quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-12-03T00:17:03Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:17:04Z whartung: yip 2016-12-03T00:17:20Z aeth: So maybe you could write a GC in CL by expressing memory as a byte array or something? 2016-12-03T00:17:27Z whartung: you have to be conscious of your prmitives that you use 2016-12-03T00:17:59Z whartung: you would need a primitive to map a byte array to an arbitrary address. Then things get really dangerous 2016-12-03T00:18:32Z Zhivago: Well, for a managaged memory system you need to solve a couple of problems -- you need to have all live object references being provably discoverable. 2016-12-03T00:18:58Z aeth: whartung: afaik, things would only be really dangerous because foo-lisp-private::%dangerous-stuff could be accessed 2016-12-03T00:19:01Z aeth: due to how things work in CL 2016-12-03T00:19:08Z aeth: at least, in that CL implementation 2016-12-03T00:19:11Z Zhivago: So you need to write and enforce a subsystem within which objects can only be dealt with in ways that preserve that, while not being in such a system yourself. 2016-12-03T00:19:17Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:19:26Z whartung: We know this can be done, since it was done in the Lisp Machines. I imagine SBCL has suitable primitives as well, since it's mostly CL vs assembly, right? 2016-12-03T00:19:38Z Zhivago: Which brings you back to -- what benefit do you derive from trying to do that in lisp? 2016-12-03T00:19:51Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:19:52Z whartung: self-hosting code 2016-12-03T00:19:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good learning experience 2016-12-03T00:20:02Z Zhivago: SBCL uses C for the managed environment and GC, then CL and Assembly for the rest. 2016-12-03T00:20:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't Mezzano's gc written in Lisp? 2016-12-03T00:20:08Z whartung: oh ok 2016-12-03T00:20:18Z whartung: I didn't know SBCL had any C 2016-12-03T00:20:33Z aeth: Zhivago: if you have something all in one language, that's a major advantage in many ways imo 2016-12-03T00:20:47Z Zhivago: I'm not saying that you can't do it, but you're not looking at a significant return on your investment. 2016-12-03T00:21:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I think beach is trying to implement all of CL in CL. 2016-12-03T00:21:04Z Zhivago: aeth: If they're partitioned they're not the same language, really -- they just look similar. 2016-12-03T00:21:07Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: including GC? 2016-12-03T00:21:07Z whartung: there's nothing wrong with dangerous primitives. Just put them in the DANGEROUS-PRIMITIVE package to deter their use 2016-12-03T00:21:23Z aeth: Zhivago: it would still reduce the dependencies afaik 2016-12-03T00:21:53Z aeth: Zhivago: even though depending on a C compiler isn't that big, especially since CFFI will probably be used in places by some libraries anyway, it's still a dependency that could be removed 2016-12-03T00:21:58Z whartung: I'm curious how high level the primitives in the micro-coded Lisp machines were 2016-12-03T00:22:10Z Zhivago: aeth: It would change the dependencies to being on some weird system no-one has ported anywhere rather than on a horrible system that has been ported everywhere, certainly. 2016-12-03T00:22:18Z krwq: what's the easiest way to iterate over 2 dimensional arrays (columns on the inner loop, rows on the outer - (if reverse is better that's alright too))? do you just do regular double loop and iterate from 0 to (- (array-dimension arr 0) 1) etc or is there some shorter syntax? 2016-12-03T00:22:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Code/Garbage-collector 2016-12-03T00:22:55Z aeth: Zhivago: yes, but if you can bootstrap it somehow, it can still work, and it doesn't need to run *everywhere* that C runs, only the platforms you target 2016-12-03T00:23:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know what state that is in. 2016-12-03T00:23:05Z Zhivago: kwrq: You have row-major access, which provides a linear view, which may help. 2016-12-03T00:23:28Z aeth: I doubt a CL is going to target more than x86, x86-64, various major ARMs, and possibly e.g. MIPS, RISC-V, SPARC, PowerPC, etc. 2016-12-03T00:23:28Z Zhivago: aeth: Which brings it back to -- what is your expected return on investment here? :) 2016-12-03T00:23:30Z whartung: (dotimes (y row-count) (dotimes (x col-count) (print (aref array x y))) 2016-12-03T00:24:23Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: ah, bitvector, not bytevector. I was close! 2016-12-03T00:24:36Z whartung: in the end the problem isn't the CL runtime. the problem is the wifi drivers and GPU interface... 2016-12-03T00:24:51Z aeth: "though not represented as a common Lisp bitvector", interesting 2016-12-03T00:24:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:25:02Z krwq: Zhivago: do you mean ROW-MAJOR-AREF? whartung: that's pretty way shorter too - i keep forgetting there are multiple ways to loop :) 2016-12-03T00:25:09Z whartung: My favorite recent hackery is the Oberon machine built on an FPGA 2016-12-03T00:25:25Z whartung: my way is the "fotran in lisp" way :) 2016-12-03T00:25:30Z aeth: whartung: OpenGL support? It'll never come to a LispOS. Vulkan support? That afaik would be possible. 2016-12-03T00:25:52Z aeth: whartung: Then you'd just write a graphics API that's mostly or entirely compatible with cl-vulkan when it's ready, so that code written for Vulkan can run on that too 2016-12-03T00:26:18Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:26:22Z whartung: I don't know much about GPUs save the ones on my mac apparently aren't very good for games 2016-12-03T00:26:34Z aeth: That's Apple's fault, not the GPU's fault. 2016-12-03T00:26:43Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:26:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's the fault of a power-constrained environment :) 2016-12-03T00:26:50Z manuel__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:27:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: A laptop isn't much good if it only last 5mins on a full charge. 2016-12-03T00:27:03Z whartung: but the point is that getting the CL runtime up and runtime is really minor compared to getting drivers to let that system do anything on the bare metal of the machine its running on. 2016-12-03T00:27:19Z Zhivago: Indeed. 2016-12-03T00:27:21Z aeth: whartung: Apple wants to push the "Metal" graphics API to mobile developers because it makes almost all of its game money from mobile games for iOS. So they won't implement recent versions of OpenGL 4 or any version of Vulkan. 2016-12-03T00:27:50Z whartung: is metal cheaper than opengl or vulkan, or simply proprietary? 2016-12-03T00:27:55Z krwq: Zhivago: is there also any shortcut for total number of elements? 2016-12-03T00:28:06Z whartung: array-dimensions ? 2016-12-03T00:28:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/system/gc.lisp 2016-12-03T00:28:41Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-12-03T00:28:45Z aeth: whartung: Afaik, Metal is sort of in between OpenGL and Vulkan as far as "close to the metal" goes. But it was out before Vulkan and DX12 so it gets to pretend it's close to the metal, since it *is* closer than OpenGL 2016-12-03T00:28:49Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:28:55Z whartung: ok 2016-12-03T00:29:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:29:12Z Zhivago: ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE ? 2016-12-03T00:29:14Z whartung: so hard to complain it's not compatible with Vulkan when it came first 2016-12-03T00:29:18Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:29:56Z aeth: whartung: but now porters for desktop Mac software have to choose old versions of OpenGL or some sort of translation layer... so Apple's basically sacrificing its almost non-existent desktop gaming scene to try to anticompetitively force people to its proprietary Metal on iOS (which will hurt Android, which uses the open standard Vulkan) 2016-12-03T00:30:12Z whartung: ic 2016-12-03T00:30:18Z Zhivago: That's one thing that I think CL got wrong -- they should have made array a subtype of vector, which would have given a general sequence view for free. 2016-12-03T00:30:31Z aeth: They could support Vulkan on macOS, but then it'd threaten their iOS cash cow a bit. 2016-12-03T00:30:45Z krwq: Thank you Zhivago and whartung! 2016-12-03T00:30:52Z whartung: yw krwq 2016-12-03T00:31:29Z aeth: Oh, sorry, they'll probably use a translation layer for either OpenGL 4.ancient or Metal, and either way, it'll make Apple PC gaming worse than the equivalent hardware on a Windows PC in most cases. 2016-12-03T00:31:51Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:31:52Z aeth: Or they'll just not support Macs. I've seen some games that are only Windows+Linux, which probably wouldn't have happened a few years ago 2016-12-03T00:32:25Z aeth: But if you were to boot into a LispOS (or Linux or Windows or whatever), if your hardware is capable of Vulkan, I think you'd be able to use Vulkan there. 2016-12-03T00:32:33Z whartung: Holy…"Initially loading the whole system takes approximately 25 minutes " ouch… time to break out those "DO NOT POWER OFF" stickers from the past. 2016-12-03T00:33:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: whartung: what's that from? 2016-12-03T00:33:09Z whartung: Mezzano 2016-12-03T00:33:39Z aeth: whartung: Mezzano doesn't have Vulkan yet, but iirc, the creator said Vulkan's possible and OpenGL is basically impossible. 2016-12-03T00:33:47Z aeth: It was many months ago here so I'm not sure if the situation changed. 2016-12-03T00:34:03Z whartung: why is OpenGL impossible? to much dependece on proprietary GPU stuff? 2016-12-03T00:34:09Z aeth: It wouldn't be too useful for Mezzano to have Vulkan until cl-vulkan is implemented and in common use over cl-opengl, anyway. 2016-12-03T00:34:11Z whartung: I don' really know anything about it 2016-12-03T00:34:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:34:35Z aeth: whartung: OpenGL is a huge, fat driver. Vulkan is a smaller driver that requires you to do more. 2016-12-03T00:34:41Z whartung: k 2016-12-03T00:34:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, booting mezzano in a vm never took that long before. 2016-12-03T00:35:08Z aeth: whartung: OpenGL tried to strike a balance between e.g. CAD apps that want that sort of high(ish) level thing, and games that want performance above everything else. Obviously that didn't quite work. Hence Vulkan, for high-performance. 2016-12-03T00:35:22Z whartung: ic ok 2016-12-03T00:35:24Z aeth: Vulkan at the moment is only for high-performance until people write higher level libraries/frameworks on it, though. OpenGL is much easier to use 2016-12-03T00:35:44Z Zhivago: There is GLX which provides a thin interface. 2016-12-03T00:37:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T00:39:18Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:39:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:43:54Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-03T00:43:57Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-03T00:46:55Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T00:57:37Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:00:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T01:03:00Z ben_vulpes left #lisp 2016-12-03T01:05:56Z raydeejay: iirc mezzano took like five minutes to bootstrap on my machine a few weeks ago 2016-12-03T01:06:07Z raydeejay: possibly s/weeks/months/ ? 2016-12-03T01:07:32Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-03T01:07:51Z aeth: Is anyone working on a Wayland-based tiling window manager in CL now that distros are moving over to Wayland? 2016-12-03T01:08:03Z aeth: I'm guessing it'd have to CFFI a C lib instead of the way stumpwm works with X 2016-12-03T01:10:49Z aeth: It looks like there is a cl-wayland in Quicklisp, so someone might have already thought this far ahead 2016-12-03T01:11:51Z huracans quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T01:12:13Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:12:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T01:13:12Z aeth: It looks like there is a compsitor, too: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis 2016-12-03T01:16:18Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-03T01:16:21Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:16:27Z nullniverse quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-12-03T01:17:09Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:19:33Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:19:42Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:20:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T01:22:06Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-03T01:26:48Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:27:08Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T01:27:58Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-03T01:30:13Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T01:31:17Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:31:22Z rashmirathi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T01:32:26Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:34:39Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:40:10Z Arathnim: Xach: Would a project being tied to sbcl prevent it from being accepted into quicklisp? 2016-12-03T01:40:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T01:40:32Z XachX: Arathnim: yes 2016-12-03T01:41:06Z Arathnim: Which other implementations would need to be supported? 2016-12-03T01:42:50Z Arathnim: Or is that just "no non-portable code"? 2016-12-03T01:45:36Z Fare: Arathnim, how is it tied to sbcl? 2016-12-03T01:46:13Z Fare: between bordeaux-threads, cffi, uiop, trivial-*, etc., there are plenty of portability layers 2016-12-03T01:46:38Z Arathnim: Had to access specific internal sbcl functions in sb-fasl and sb-impl 2016-12-03T01:47:25Z Arathnim: I could extend it to other implementations, I'm just wondering how many and which ones. 2016-12-03T01:47:57Z Fare: what do you do? 2016-12-03T01:49:15Z nikki93_ quit 2016-12-03T01:49:22Z Arathnim: Provide a hook that's called with top level forms from file loading and repls for modification. 2016-12-03T01:49:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:49:52Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:50:19Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T01:50:42Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:51:57Z krwq: is there some kind of reverse (format ...)? (like scanf/printf) or only regexes or manual parsing 2016-12-03T01:53:23Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-03T01:53:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: This came up in another context on a Scheme mailing list. I don't know, but you could probably do something better using just the built in text processing or the cl-ppcre library. 2016-12-03T01:54:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: scanf isn't very good 2016-12-03T01:54:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: or flexible 2016-12-03T01:55:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: Writing a function that handles your particular example is probably a good way to solve your problem. 2016-12-03T01:55:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: my 2 cents 2016-12-03T01:56:01Z Fare: Arathnim, I still don't understand what your hook does. 2016-12-03T01:56:07Z Fare: Is it similar to asdf-finalizers? 2016-12-03T01:57:27Z Fare: krwq, Xof once wrote a reverse format for the fun of it. But for serious business, try a parser combinator library, or the new hotness with derivative based parsers. 2016-12-03T01:57:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: Fare: Did someone port parsec over to Common Lisp or something? 2016-12-03T01:58:29Z Fare: Dunno about this particular one, but e.g. drewc wrote a monadic parser combinator library 2016-12-03T01:58:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: The best parser language I thought we had was writing out cl-ppcre trees. 2016-12-03T01:58:38Z Fare: and I'm sure many others did 2016-12-03T01:58:56Z Arathnim: There's several implementations, in various styles. 2016-12-03T01:59:04Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T01:59:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: https://github.com/drewc/smug 2016-12-03T01:59:16Z Fare: derivative parsers also describe their grammars using combinators -- does that count? 2016-12-03T01:59:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: "There's several implementations, in various styles." Ah, the lisp way. 2016-12-03T01:59:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm not familliar with derivative parsers. 2016-12-03T01:59:54Z Fare: read the famous paper by Matthew Might 2016-12-03T02:00:06Z Arathnim: smug is on the functional side, using pure lambdas, although there's more macro-y solutions. 2016-12-03T02:00:18Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T02:00:31Z Fare: http://matt.might.net/articles/parsing-with-derivatives/ 2016-12-03T02:00:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks. 2016-12-03T02:00:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess I'll have something for small talk at Racket con. 2016-12-03T02:00:53Z Fare: a common lisp implementation: https://github.com/sellout/YACC-is-dead 2016-12-03T02:01:16Z Arathnim: Fare: When you add a hook, it's called with the contents of every top level form and everything sent into the repl, and the result is what is evaluated. 2016-12-03T02:02:18Z Fare: not just for the repl, but also while loading a file? 2016-12-03T02:02:40Z Arathnim: And also the slime repl. 2016-12-03T02:02:58Z Fare: reminds me of alex plotnick's custom REPL hacks 2016-12-03T02:04:04Z Arathnim: Pretty much. I'm trying to make it less hacky and safe to make syntax extensions and macros which use lexical information. 2016-12-03T02:05:59Z Arathnim: It was pretty trivial to implement scheme's cute syntax: (reduce #'max list :key (gethash <> table)) 2016-12-03T02:07:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: (gethash <> table) => (lambda (gensymed-symbol) (gethash gensymed-symbol table)) 2016-12-03T02:07:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: right? 2016-12-03T02:07:31Z Arathnim: Yes. 2016-12-03T02:08:55Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:16:17Z Fare: Arathnim, you should try Racket, for that 2016-12-03T02:16:34Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-12-03T02:17:00Z Fare reboots under Windows to try the next SBCL hotness... 2016-12-03T02:17:06Z Arathnim: Try racket for what? 2016-12-03T02:17:15Z Fare: Arathnim, macros that have more context 2016-12-03T02:21:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-03T02:24:15Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:25:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: I thought schemes were good for macros that had less context. 2016-12-03T02:26:54Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:31:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:32:37Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:39:42Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-03T02:42:57Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:44:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:48:03Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-03T02:50:04Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-03T02:54:16Z krwq: Fare: thanks! I'll read that but will probably go for cl-pcre unless will see some good benefit. (Sorry got to go afk soon after I asked the question) 2016-12-03T02:55:28Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-03T02:57:32Z felideon joined #lisp 2016-12-03T02:57:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T02:57:47Z aeth: Fare: is there a portability layer for asm in Lisp? That's probably a use case I can think of that would tie something to SBCL 2016-12-03T02:58:08Z aeth: I'm sure there's *something* that can only be done in assembly that needs to be done somewhere 2016-12-03T02:58:21Z felideon: hello. is there a list of , slime commands? google is failing me. I'm trying to figure out the command for use-package 2016-12-03T02:59:24Z felideon: err, in-package. 2016-12-03T02:59:51Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-03T03:00:07Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:00:17Z Arathnim: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Shortcuts.html#Shortcuts these commands? 2016-12-03T03:00:31Z aeth: felideon: the full form is (cl-user::in-package foo) so are you looking for tab completion of cl-user::TAB? 2016-12-03T03:00:55Z aeth: (Hmm, unfortunately, that also includes the package CL) 2016-12-03T03:02:00Z aeth: ah, that is in package CL, I always assumed it was a cl-user thing because in some cases I don't have access to it, strange 2016-12-03T03:02:00Z felideon: hmm no. i'm talking about mini-buffer commands. 2016-12-03T03:02:06Z Arathnim: Looks like you can use !p, in, or in-package. 2016-12-03T03:02:08Z felideon: like ,q 2016-12-03T03:02:13Z krwq: felideon: just type slime- and tab 2016-12-03T03:02:26Z aeth: M-x slime-TAB 2016-12-03T03:03:05Z krwq: or M-x apropos RET slime RET 2016-12-03T03:03:37Z Arathnim: felideon: ,in is the slime shortcut to change packages. 2016-12-03T03:05:59Z krwq: felideon: i'm pretty sure you're looking for slime-interactive-eval 2016-12-03T03:06:33Z felideon: Arathnim: hmm yeah that works. don't know why i thought it was , p something 2016-12-03T03:07:05Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-03T03:07:16Z felideon: Arathnim: thanks 2016-12-03T03:07:35Z Arathnim: ,!p also works, probably what you were thinking of. np. 2016-12-03T03:07:57Z felideon: maybe! 2016-12-03T03:14:37Z krwq left #lisp 2016-12-03T03:16:32Z Fare: aeth: there are many assemblers written in Lisp; but not really a "portable" one that what more would allow portable calling of code 2016-12-03T03:18:23Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-12-03T03:23:15Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:26:26Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-03T03:29:09Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:30:11Z safe joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:30:26Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:32:49Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-03T03:33:13Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:33:59Z Fare: any sbcl/windows user around? 2016-12-03T03:34:39Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:37:17Z krwq: got a question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/333130 - why is this not working? I'm getting both foo is being removed because it is not being used and foo is undefined in here - I know I can do it differently but just wondering 2016-12-03T03:38:06Z Bike: krwq: EVAL is just a normal function, and doesn't know anything about the environment it's being executed in, so t he code it evaluates is evaluated in a null lexical environment 2016-12-03T03:38:14Z Bike: which is a lengthy way of saying it doesn't know about the flet 2016-12-03T03:38:38Z krwq: Bike: is there a way of executing code in the same environment? 2016-12-03T03:38:59Z Bike: nope 2016-12-03T03:39:08Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-03T03:39:16Z Bike: having one would kill almost all optimizations, and such bad things 2016-12-03T03:39:21Z Bike: what would you like to do? 2016-12-03T03:39:24Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:39:55Z krwq: i wanted to generate code from encoded data coming from the network and execute it 2016-12-03T03:40:10Z Bike: well, sure. does it need local variables or what? 2016-12-03T03:40:58Z krwq: i was planning to make generated code only few types of forms which i wanted to bind with flet 2016-12-03T03:41:13Z krwq: it does 2016-12-03T03:41:32Z Bike: if the code format is very restricted, it might be advantageous to write your own limited evaluator, for security and speed and stuff 2016-12-03T03:41:34Z krwq: i wanted to parse some binary data to a set of functions which server should execute to create a response 2016-12-03T03:41:38Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-03T03:42:21Z Bike: like, if the code is just gonna be like (progn (foo) (bar) (baz) (badjl)) you could just send over the function names and have your evaluator call them in sequence. 2016-12-03T03:43:10Z krwq: That was the plan - that will work - thanks! I'm kind of disappointed that there isn't any way of passing some env to eval 2016-12-03T03:44:02Z Bike: i can understand the disappointment, but it's complicated to do well and not something you often need. 2016-12-03T03:45:17Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-03T03:45:59Z krwq: Bike: so what can eval do if you can't pass anything to it? only run funcs from cl-user? 2016-12-03T03:46:10Z krwq: or like a completely sandboxed lisp 2016-12-03T03:46:23Z Bike: it can run anything you could run in the repl 2016-12-03T03:46:45Z krwq: but it is fresh lisp starting always in cl-user or in the current package? 2016-12-03T03:46:58Z Bike: package is a reader thing. eval doesn't know or care about packages. 2016-12-03T03:47:16Z _death: you can do (eval `(flet ((foo () ...)) ,(generate-code))) 2016-12-03T03:47:56Z White_Flame: eval is like loading a file. It doesn't see "context" besides the global runstate of the image 2016-12-03T03:47:58Z krwq: i see - I didn't know it only makes sense in the read time 2016-12-03T03:48:12Z krwq: thank you! 2016-12-03T03:48:39Z White_Flame: same thing on the repl; you can't have any sort of LET style lexical scoping persist across REPL lines 2016-12-03T03:50:36Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-03T03:51:33Z Fare: 3 2016-12-03T03:55:34Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T03:57:04Z Fare: I'm trying to compile sbcl with msys2 and having weird conflict between win32/winsock2.h and various unix headers. 2016-12-03T03:57:12Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2016-12-03T03:58:11Z Fare googles and finds https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/33269448/ 2016-12-03T03:58:34Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T04:05:58Z Zhivago: krwq: It makes sense outside of read-time. 2016-12-03T04:06:14Z Zhivago: krwq: It just evaluates things in the null lexical environment. 2016-12-03T04:07:50Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T04:08:16Z krwq: Appears that it was 5 lines of code to write evaluator for what I wanted 2016-12-03T04:08:51Z krwq: Even supports list of bindings 2016-12-03T04:31:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-03T04:32:57Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-03T04:37:07Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T04:38:11Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2016-12-03T04:40:12Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T04:44:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-03T04:56:27Z axion: Where can I find a list of recognized asdf:defsystem fields in addition to :description, :version, and the more common ones? 2016-12-03T04:58:27Z krwq: axion: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/contrib/asdf/asdf.lisp#L191 ? 2016-12-03T05:00:14Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:00:27Z krwq: axion: or here https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html 2016-12-03T05:02:25Z axion: Thanks, but I see a lot more in the wild. I know it is free to the user which fields are added, but I was looking more for a style guide with widely accepted field names and their meanings. 2016-12-03T05:04:25Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T05:05:34Z Reinisch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T05:09:49Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-grammar.html should have all of them 2016-12-03T05:10:02Z Bike: i don't think you can just throw in new ones? 2016-12-03T05:10:09Z Bike: without defining a new system class or whatever, at least 2016-12-03T05:10:14Z aindilis2 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:10:31Z axion: Well I see pjb uses :maintainer and :properties, etc...which I do not see listed there 2016-12-03T05:10:58Z Arathnim: Bike: That doesn't list all of them, which is weird. 2016-12-03T05:11:00Z axion: I have also seen :maintainer used elsewhere, so prompted me to look for some style guide 2016-12-03T05:11:50Z Bike: huh. unfortunate. 2016-12-03T05:12:15Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:12:54Z axion: I am also interested in how/when/by what these metadata fields are queried 2016-12-03T05:13:08Z axion: such as asdf3's :source-control etc 2016-12-03T05:13:39Z Bike: perhaps https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/contrib/asdf/asdf.lisp#L499-L525 has them 2016-12-03T05:13:45Z Bike: the manual missing parts is worrying, though 2016-12-03T05:13:55Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2016-12-03T05:14:24Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:14:57Z axion: I think I was moreso looking for the individual purposes of them all, if they are used by other libraries such as Quicklisp, etc, or why they were added to the grammar, without the ability to add custom ones. 2016-12-03T05:15:21Z axion: Or are they largely unused by software and just for visual aid 2016-12-03T05:17:40Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:18:05Z Bike: hm. not sure. 2016-12-03T05:19:21Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-03T05:21:40Z Fare: axion: :properties is deprecated. 2016-12-03T05:22:17Z axion: Fare: ok, that answers one of my questions. Thanks. 2016-12-03T05:23:22Z Fare: the recommended way to define more initargs is to define subclasses of system, such as program-system. 2016-12-03T05:24:51Z axion: Fare: I was wondering what the standard is for their values. I can see for example :source-control is a 2-element list in asdf.asd. I was wondering what defining this actually does. Does any software read from this? 2016-12-03T05:24:57Z axion: and the other fields 2016-12-03T05:25:08Z Fare quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T05:34:17Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:35:48Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-03T05:35:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T05:36:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:38:09Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:40:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-03T05:43:26Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T05:45:08Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T05:46:49Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-03T05:47:54Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-03T05:51:51Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-12-03T05:52:26Z shrdlu68: Good morning. 2016-12-03T05:56:15Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T06:03:32Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-03T06:04:03Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T06:04:05Z 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(cdr x))) 2016-12-03T09:53:17Z papachan: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2016-12-03T09:53:28Z jackdaniel: papachan: (cdr x) gives you (180) 2016-12-03T09:53:30Z jackdaniel: not 180 2016-12-03T09:53:41Z jackdaniel: you may try (float (/ (car x) (cadr x))) 2016-12-03T09:53:44Z williampw: (180) is (180 . nil) 2016-12-03T09:53:54Z jackdaniel: or even better (float (/ (first x) (second x))) 2016-12-03T09:54:35Z lemonpie: or you could change list to cons 2016-12-03T09:55:17Z jackdaniel: so many possibilities 2016-12-03T09:56:25Z papachan: thanks, thats why i mess up 2016-12-03T09:56:32Z papachan: its clear now 2016-12-03T09:56:47Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-12-03T09:57:59Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-12-03T09:59:10Z msb joined #lisp 2016-12-03T10:00:34Z papachan: worked also with cons :) 2016-12-03T10:01:02Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-12-03T10:01:53Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-03T10:02:40Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T10:03:52Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 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late 2016-12-03T12:35:51Z phoe: ...geez 2016-12-03T12:35:56Z phoe: that's some short temper 2016-12-03T12:37:02Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-03T12:42:27Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-12-03T12:46:05Z deank quit 2016-12-03T12:51:33Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-03T12:54:14Z deank joined #lisp 2016-12-03T12:59:04Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-12-03T12:59:41Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-03T13:01:16Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T13:02:13Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-03T13:03:44Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-12-03T13:04:20Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T13:06:17Z Spelndid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-03T13:06:40Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T13:07:17Z Spelndid joined #lisp 2016-12-03T13:14:34Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-12-03T13:23:03Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T13:23:38Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T13:24:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-03T13:26:29Z alpert joined 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connection) 2016-12-03T15:55:24Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:00:21Z fourier: how to define a package which is "internal" to the asdf system, i.e. could be used by other packages in the asdf system, but not exposed to the users of this system? for example I want to define a package with shourt names like "gp" and use it in other packages inside the system, but afraid of potential package name conflicts (if anyone uses package with the same name and my asdf system simultaniously) 2016-12-03T16:01:32Z mrottenkolber: fourier: There is no formal destinction AFAICT, but I usually define them under a informal “namespace”, e.g. PUBPKG, PUBPKG.PRIV.UTILS ... 2016-12-03T16:01:50Z mrottenkolber: then I only document what’s public in the API 2016-12-03T16:02:10Z mrottenkolber: e.g. the documentation will only list the public packages 2016-12-03T16:02:49Z mrottenkolber: you can’t prevent people from accessing your internal packages, but imho its OK to trust them to think about what they are doing 2016-12-03T16:03:41Z fourier: mrottenkolber: yes it is what I'm doing. but I want to have a short nickname for specific package (like "utils", there are probably tons of packages wit the name "utils" around) 2016-12-03T16:04:40Z |3b|: no easy way to do so portably (at best you could add temporary nickname and remove it after loading), some implementations have extensions for things like that 2016-12-03T16:05:07Z fourier: it is a limitation of not having hierarchical packages in CL :\ 2016-12-03T16:05:16Z |3b|: and i think there are some libraries that add similar features, either with reader tricks or by doing implementation-specific things internally 2016-12-03T16:05:18Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:05:26Z mrottenkolber: but can’t you just :USE your packages? 2016-12-03T16:05:57Z russellw joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:05:58Z |3b|: hierarchical packages is one of the extensions some implementations have, not really a good solution in general though, since you might want short names for other people's packages too :) 2016-12-03T16:07:49Z fourier: I'm using :use of course for my packages. my idea is to define a wrapper around defpackage which will :use my other packages automatically, so I don't have to type them in :use for every of my package. but then the problem is how to export this macro (defpackage*) :) 2016-12-03T16:08:43Z mrottenkolber: fourier: I don’t think the efort is worth it, but you can create a library package+ that exports defpackage* 2016-12-03T16:09:13Z russellw- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-03T16:10:12Z fourier: mrottenkolber: yep, I just want to shorten the name for this ;) so it is only visible inside my asdf system 2016-12-03T16:11:18Z mrottenkolber: (defpackage myproject-asdf (:use :package+)) (in-package :myproject-asdf) (defpackage* myproject ...) 2016-12-03T16:11:24Z mrottenkolber: ? 2016-12-03T16:11:49Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:13:30Z zshlyg joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:15:04Z zshlyg: How do you change the electric/automatic indentation used when editing CL code in emacs? 2016-12-03T16:15:27Z fourier: mrottenkolber: need to think about it.. 2016-12-03T16:15:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: mrottenkolber: I think in-package/defpackage ignore the symbol's namespace 2016-12-03T16:15:47Z phoe: zshlyg: do you mean aggressive-indent perhaps? 2016-12-03T16:16:11Z mrottenkolber: zymurgy: (electric-indent-mode -1) 2016-12-03T16:17:07Z zshlyg: If cursor is on a "(loop .." line, and I press enter, it will put the cursor below LOOP at a position I want to change 2016-12-03T16:17:49Z zshlyg: If I have written a line inside a LOOP form and press enter, it will indent the line below the LOOP at a position I want to change. 2016-12-03T16:17:58Z zshlyg: ditto for COND and IF. 2016-12-03T16:18:21Z mrottenkolber: zshlyg: is this “new” behavior that came with 24.1? 2016-12-03T16:18:31Z mrottenkolber: zymurgy: if so, try (electric-indent-mode -1) 2016-12-03T16:18:51Z mrottenkolber: oh I get confused with nicks, sorry! 2016-12-03T16:19:01Z mrottenkolber: zshlyg: if so, try (electric-indent-mode -1) 2016-12-03T16:19:16Z zshlyg: mrottenkolber: let me test, please wait! 2016-12-03T16:21:29Z zshlyg: mrottenkolber: sorry it will at some test move the cursor to the next line starting at cursor-position 0. If adding a new loop sub-form it seems to work, but not if the form is directly afte the LOOP line. 2016-12-03T16:21:58Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:22:09Z zshlyg: Somewhere inside emacs there must be some indentation numbers that I would like to change. 2016-12-03T16:22:31Z mrottenkolber: zshlyg: oh ok, no idea about that, try emacs wiki? 2016-12-03T16:22:34Z lemonpie: i've said it before: lisp-indent-function annoys me 2016-12-03T16:23:02Z |3b|: zshlyg: you might try loading the slime-indentation contrib and see if it works how you want, if you don't already 2016-12-03T16:23:14Z lemonpie: (which is what is used in elisp-mode and scheme-mode so is probably the basis of indentation for CL and slime) 2016-12-03T16:24:12Z Tex_Nick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T16:24:13Z zshlyg: yes it seems if I disable lisp-mode, any indentation goes away. But I've tried to search the lisp-mode code but can't find out where it gets its numbers. 2016-12-03T16:25:04Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T16:25:21Z tmc joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:25:24Z lemonpie: if it uses lisp-indent-function then it's kind of obscurely done, basically an alist that can point to a number or a procedure, the number if positive assumes let style syntax and indents x lines extra before returning to normal indentation 2016-12-03T16:26:07Z lemonpie: i think it can also be 'define which means to treat the keyword as if it's a def* keyword 2016-12-03T16:27:13Z lemonpie: in theory pointing a keyword at a procedure lets you fine tune it, but i couldn't find any example of it done like that, and all the standard lisp-mode derived stuff just uses 'define or numbers 2016-12-03T16:28:48Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T16:29:20Z namosca joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:30:04Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:30:23Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T16:32:59Z warweasle quit (Quit: bbl) 2016-12-03T16:34:17Z zshlyg: |3b|: I've added slime-indentation to slime-setup and restarted emacs, I cant find any added slime-indent* functions to play with. 2016-12-03T16:35:19Z |3b|: does it change how LOOP is indented? 2016-12-03T16:35:59Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:36:01Z zshlyg: |3b|: unfortunately it didn't. 2016-12-03T16:36:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: zshlyg: why do you want to change the indentation? People often use the indentation of lisp code as a way to avoid having to count parentheses, so it might be best just to use the default settings. 2016-12-03T16:36:53Z |3b|: you might also try M-x customize-group RET lisp-indent RET and see if any of those look useful 2016-12-03T16:37:00Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T16:39:44Z |3b|: i think the slime contrib just loads a modified version of the default CL-indent, so just changes how it works rather than adding new slime-* things 2016-12-03T16:40:04Z fantazo joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:40:17Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-03T16:42:02Z zshlyg: I tried the (PUT 'if ...) example from https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/IndentingLisp but it will not work. I'll try it again on a clean emacs without slime,paredit and evil. 2016-12-03T16:43:36Z |3b|: zshlyg: also, if you were just hitting enter without typing more, try indenting an actual whole loop form, since the contrib does indentation based on the loop clauses (like indenting clause affected by WHEN more for example) 2016-12-03T16:44:21Z zshlyg: emacs -Q my.lisp will not take the changes suggested from the wiki. 2016-12-03T16:45:35Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:47:22Z |3b|: try common-lisp-indent-function instead of lisp-indent-function 2016-12-03T16:47:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:48:40Z zshlyg: |3b|: i'm looking at slime/contrib/slime-indentation.lisp, it doesn't seem to load/change anything out of the box, it just provides an function: slime-update-system-indentation 2016-12-03T16:49:12Z |3b|: it loads slime-cl-indent.el which does the indentation 2016-12-03T16:50:56Z |3b|: ah, i guess it is lisp-indent-function unless you tell it to indent with common lisp style 2016-12-03T16:51:38Z zshlyg: |3b|: ahh! Thanks! Do you think that by following how slime/contrib/slime-cl-indent.el changes the indentation, I could do the same? Or telling slime-cl-indent how I want things. 2016-12-03T16:52:23Z |3b|: well, it is just lisp code, so presumably you could make it do anything you wanted to :) 2016-12-03T16:52:33Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-12-03T16:52:52Z |3b|: if you can configure it to do what you want that would probably be simplest though 2016-12-03T16:53:29Z loke`: dig 2016-12-03T16:53:32Z loke`: Oops 2016-12-03T16:53:56Z zshlyg: |3b|: Thank you! I'll follow that code. Now I need to get back to the code, my heart is 20+ bpm too high due to frustration :) 2016-12-03T16:54:12Z |3b|: and make sure you are using the right indent function, see if the (emacs) variable lisp-indent-function is common-lisp-indent-function in your lisp buffers 2016-12-03T16:54:48Z zshlyg: |3b|: M-X lisp-indent-line is the only thing defined 2016-12-03T16:54:56Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:55:28Z |3b|: try M-: lisp-indent-function in a lisp buffer to see the value 2016-12-03T16:55:49Z |3b|: or M-x describe-variable RET lisp-indent-function RET 2016-12-03T16:56:18Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:56:54Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-03T16:57:11Z zshlyg: |3b|: M-: lisp-indent-function => lisp-indent-function 2016-12-03T16:57:25Z |3b|: with slime indent contrib loaded? 2016-12-03T16:57:38Z |3b|: and in a slime-mode buffer? 2016-12-03T16:57:39Z borodust joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:58:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-03T16:58:53Z zshlyg: |3b|: that was without any slime, let me retry! 2016-12-03T17:00:00Z |3b|: yeah, you have to set it manually without slime loaded 2016-12-03T17:00:16Z |3b|: slime should set it for the buffer when entering slime-mode 2016-12-03T17:00:17Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T17:00:26Z zshlyg: |3b|: same with slime 2016-12-03T17:03:00Z |3b|: in a lisp-mode buffer? 2016-12-03T17:03:30Z |3b|: does the emacs variable lisp-mode-hook contain slime-lisp-mode-hook ? 2016-12-03T17:05:16Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:06:02Z zshlyg: |3b|: Buffer has slime, paredit and evil mode. and lisp-mode-hook has slime-lisp-mode-hook 2016-12-03T17:07:59Z |3b|: is it lisp-mode? 2016-12-03T17:08:28Z zshlyg: |3b|: yes 2016-12-03T17:09:42Z |3b|: strange, i guess try M-: (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function) RET and see if that changes anything, and if so then try to figure out why it doesn't get set automatically 2016-12-03T17:10:01Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:11:06Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:12:10Z zshlyg: |3b|: some progress: setting lisp-indent-function to 'foobar disables all indentation. Setting it to common-lisp-indent-function gives me the same as behaviour as lisp-indent-function. 2016-12-03T17:14:11Z |3b| is out of ideas :/ (and also afk for a while) 2016-12-03T17:14:32Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:14:56Z zshlyg: |3b|: Thank you! You've put me on the right track! common-lisp-indent-function is defined in slime-cl-indent, I'll go dig there. 2016-12-03T17:15:20Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:22:54Z namosca: zshlyg, Are you still having problems with identation? 2016-12-03T17:23:23Z BlueRavenGT quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T17:23:38Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:23:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T17:24:20Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:25:47Z zshlyg: namosca: I took a break, my pulse was too high. 2016-12-03T17:26:17Z namosca: zshlyg, I am a complete beginner to lisp and emacs and had this kind of problem until one hour ago 2016-12-03T17:26:31Z namosca: zshlyg, I got a reasonable solution. If you want I can share 2016-12-03T17:26:54Z namosca: zshlyg, Of Indenting I mean... if you have any extra questions i cannot help 2016-12-03T17:27:58Z zshlyg: namosca: sure! Please tell me what you've found. I'm a beginner on emacs since many hears. 2016-12-03T17:28:11Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:28:41Z namosca: THe secret is not using slime-mode 2016-12-03T17:29:53Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T17:29:53Z zshlyg: namosca: what did you do then? 2016-12-03T17:29:56Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:30:01Z namosca: zshlyg, Go into slime by pressing alt-x then typing slime 2016-12-03T17:30:29Z namosca: zshlyg, then open a new file (buffer in emacs) by typing ctrl x b then enter the name of the new file you want it to be named 2016-12-03T17:30:52Z namosca: zshlyg, then, press ALT x and type lisp-mode 2016-12-03T17:31:08Z namosca: zshlyg, When you want to save the file (buffer), press Ctrl x Ctrl s 2016-12-03T17:32:10Z namosca: zshlyg, Thats how indenting worked for me 2016-12-03T17:33:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:33:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-12-03T17:33:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:33:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T17:34:17Z zshlyg: namosca: I want to change the indentation result, it is already working correctly, but not correctly for my needs. 2016-12-03T17:34:43Z namosca: zshlyg, Oh I am sorry... I thought you had no indentation at all and wanted to put it 2016-12-03T17:35:50Z zshlyg: namosca: Thank you for your kind intentions! I'll leave this to rest now, I just don't have the mental energy to wrestle with emacs every day. 2016-12-03T17:36:07Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:36:30Z namosca: zshlyg, hehehe 2016-12-03T17:37:00Z namosca quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T17:39:04Z zshlyg: I've spent the whole day translating a matrix/numpy heavy two pages of python code into CL. I'm exhausted :) 2016-12-03T17:39:07Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-03T17:40:02Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-12-03T17:41:01Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:45:00Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:55:40Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-487-cbf5c38 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-03T17:55:53Z fourier: zshlyg: but why ? :))) 2016-12-03T17:57:55Z tshirts4crime joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:58:01Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-12-03T17:58:50Z jackdaniel: because python ;) 2016-12-03T17:59:47Z fourier: but numpy is much more close to domain field (matrix stuff), so basically no reason for it 2016-12-03T18:00:02Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-03T18:00:12Z shka_: fourier: do you know how numpy works underneath? 2016-12-03T18:00:52Z russellw: fourier, if all your code deals with matrix stuff then yes you might as well stick with numpy - but that might not be the case 2016-12-03T18:01:16Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T18:01:41Z fourier: shka_: not really, I think it is some close to C parts 2016-12-03T18:01:46Z shka_: yeah 2016-12-03T18:01:59Z shka_: and it is a bit crazy there 2016-12-03T18:02:02Z fourier: russellw: it is not my code^ see above from zshlyg 2016-12-03T18:02:23Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:02:27Z russellw: Right, I meant 'your' in the general sense 2016-12-03T18:02:30Z shka_: in fact i would rather prefer to stay away from it if i can 2016-12-03T18:03:01Z shka_: cl at the very least can have unboxed arrays 2016-12-03T18:03:54Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-03T18:09:12Z pvaneynd_ joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:11:30Z zshlyg: fourier: I've done similar stuff going from octave to CL. I learn how it works meanwhile, and if I'm going to use it "internalize it" in my own code, I'd like to have native CL. In this case it is pure CL, I've used LLA, but not this time. 2016-12-03T18:12:25Z pvaneynd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-03T18:14:25Z zshlyg: fourier: a unheartening but not suprising, it runs slower in CL. 2016-12-03T18:18:03Z aeth: You could probably make it almost as fast, but it wouldn't look much like CL by the time you're finished 2016-12-03T18:19:42Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-03T18:22:18Z zshlyg: aeth: yes I need to have a compiler layer that makes the simples thing as (matrix1 + matrix2) a non-consing, type-matching operation, ie that would probably translate to a (matrix+_sf_sf_sf out mat_a mat_b), ie pure-code translated into an imperative machine-code style using only fundamental but fast operations. 2016-12-03T18:22:33Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-03T18:22:57Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:23:29Z aeth: zshlyg: you should look at the source of sb-cga, but it's only for graphical matrices, i.e. 4x4. https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga/ 2016-12-03T18:23:32Z borodust: zshlyg: what do u need exactly? i think CL have plenty of matrix related libs 2016-12-03T18:24:00Z borodust: aeth, matrices are not SSE optimized there either, though 2016-12-03T18:24:14Z aeth: only the vectors? or not even those? 2016-12-03T18:24:15Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:24:22Z borodust: vectors only 2016-12-03T18:24:49Z borodust: althou 4x4 matrices are optimized in other ways 2016-12-03T18:25:20Z borodust: like, unboxed arrays and macrolet expansions instead of loops 2016-12-03T18:25:56Z zshlyg: I'm talking about linear-algebra and possibly calling out to blast/lapack (like LLA), because the other alterative would be to implement sbcl VOPs to take advantage of cpu vector instructions. 2016-12-03T18:26:16Z aeth: https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga/blob/master/ports/sbcl.lisp 2016-12-03T18:26:27Z aeth: 29 matches for "vop" there. 2016-12-03T18:26:36Z aeth: It doesn't do everything you want, though 2016-12-03T18:26:49Z aeth: If that's 767 lines, you'd probably need 10x that 2016-12-03T18:27:23Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T18:27:40Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:28:09Z borodust: aeth, it even doesn only for vec3 2016-12-03T18:28:13Z borodust: vec4 won't work 2016-12-03T18:28:34Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:28:45Z aeth: borodust: right, which is unfortunate, because that makes quaternions much slower 2016-12-03T18:28:49Z borodust: cuz some operations explicitly work with 3 elements of 4-element SSE reg 2016-12-03T18:29:25Z borodust: zshlyg: there's already bindings for lapack and also pure cl libs 2016-12-03T18:29:39Z borodust: zshlyg: http://www.cliki.net/linear%20algebra 2016-12-03T18:31:07Z borodust: i've used clem and sb-cga from those list, albeit for 3d graphics application 2016-12-03T18:31:19Z aeth: And in the near future there's going to be a SPIR-V compiler for calculations that are best run on the GPU (and obviously also 3D graphics) 2016-12-03T18:31:22Z borodust: now I'm using rtg-math 2016-12-03T18:31:52Z zshlyg: borodust: yes I have settled with LLA. Tried other alternatives but those didn't work (not updated). 2016-12-03T18:32:05Z borodust: clem should work 2016-12-03T18:32:18Z borodust: but it is not exactly well optimized though 2016-12-03T18:33:11Z borodust: actually, i tried lisp-matrix too 2016-12-03T18:33:20Z borodust: afair worked fine either 2016-12-03T18:33:41Z zshlyg: aeth: Thanks for the link! I'll take a look at sb-cga, it could definitely be useful to speed up my own pure-CL linalg routines. 2016-12-03T18:34:17Z borodust: zshlyg: it is optimized only for sbcl thou 2016-12-03T18:34:34Z borodust: and a very little bit for ecl, afair 2016-12-03T18:34:47Z zshlyg: borodust: yes, I will go no-pure-CL, but I'm fine with sbcl-only code. 2016-12-03T18:35:30Z aeth: borodust: Although to be fair, you only really need to optimize for SBCL, CCL, and ECL. As far as FOSS Lisps go, they're the most dominant. Maybe clasp in the future will be popular. 2016-12-03T18:35:59Z borodust: zshlyg: this might help you get started then: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/08/16/how-to-define-new-intrinsics-in-sbcl/ 2016-12-03T18:36:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:37:14Z zshlyg: borodust: Thanks! I've done vops before. At some point you become a sbcl-developer, just wanting to add together two matrices :) 2016-12-03T18:38:51Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-12-03T18:38:57Z aeth: And if you want to support other Lisps, it's mostly Allegro and Lispworks for proprietary, and ABCL for the JVM niche if anyone uses it. 2016-12-03T18:39:18Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-03T18:39:20Z aeth: Keeping different optimization files isn't the end of the world. 2016-12-03T18:40:17Z borodust: to be fair, mostly u don't need to optimize ;p 2016-12-03T18:40:40Z aeth: This was on the topic of competing with numpy, wasn't it? 2016-12-03T18:41:24Z aeth: Of course in Python you need to optimize :p 2016-12-03T18:44:00Z aeth: The two reasons I stopped using Python are (1) it's too optinionated of a language and (2) it doesn't usually care about speed 2016-12-03T18:44:04Z aeth: *opinionated 2016-12-03T18:44:21Z aeth: #2 is huge. numpy exists because it has to in Python 2016-12-03T18:44:51Z Fare: Python is an attractive nuisance: it has a nice-looking surface syntax, and plenty of small bad design ideas everywhere that add up to making it a real pain to reason about. 2016-12-03T18:45:57Z aeth: It has an attractive syntax *if* you do things in its particular iterative way. Any other paradigm looks ugly and that is intentional. 2016-12-03T18:47:29Z drdo: python is one of those languages that really didn't need to exist 2016-12-03T18:47:57Z aeth: Python is a wonderful language for beginners. So I guess it's the new BASIC. 2016-12-03T18:48:16Z drdo: Some guy has some half-baked superficial ideas and goes and implements it and it accidentally becomes popular 2016-12-03T18:49:00Z aeth: It does have nice syntax for most of the major features... its OOP syntax isn't that great, though, but neither is CLOS's... maybe it's a hard problem to define classes with good syntax. :p 2016-12-03T18:50:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: The best part of clos's syntax is that you don't have any methods inside the class definition 2016-12-03T18:50:45Z aeth: When you first learn Python's syntax it's perfect... then when you do OOP you notice some syntax flaws that seem sort of unpythonic... and then when you try to do FP you notice quite a few flaws... Iirc, the lambda syntax is garbage. 2016-12-03T18:50:58Z aeth: And it deliberately tries not to do tail call optimizations iirc. 2016-12-03T18:51:37Z aeth: (Unless you hate whitespace, in which case you hate Python from the start.) 2016-12-03T18:51:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: For python the only one expression limitation on lambdas is reasonable. 2016-12-03T18:52:11Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: but if you want to make a fancier closure, what you probably wind up doing is creating a named function within a function for no good reason 2016-12-03T18:52:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I dunno I sort of like that 2016-12-03T18:53:12Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-03T18:54:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: But I tend to use flet as soon as lambdas in Lisp get very complicated. 2016-12-03T18:54:20Z aeth: Python also isn't quite Pythonic enough. If whitespace is significant anyway, require whitespace between things so you can use kebab-case. So, "1 + 2 + 3" is good and "1+2+3" is invalid or a variable name 2016-12-03T18:54:37Z MolluskEmpire quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T18:54:38Z aeth: That imo is the far more important significant whitespace, which only s-expressions really emphasize 2016-12-03T18:55:00Z aeth: People just want to be lazy and use "1-4*3" or whatever in the REPL-as-calculator so they'd complain 2016-12-03T18:55:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think that'd just make things confusing with infix notation. 2016-12-03T18:55:31Z aeth: Also, the "return" statement is imo useless. I like languages with an implicit return on the last line, like Lisps. 2016-12-03T18:55:47Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Most style guides require a space anyway. 2016-12-03T18:55:54Z aeth: Just like most style guides specify identation. 2016-12-03T18:56:04Z aeth: *indentation 2016-12-03T18:56:05Z aeth: Forcing spaces is just like forcing indentation. 2016-12-03T18:56:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean allowing operators inside of identifiers. 2016-12-03T18:56:38Z fourier: obligatory https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1803815 2016-12-03T18:56:49Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: idk, an exception could be made just for - because it's so important, and then you'd get used to it 2016-12-03T18:56:54Z aeth: *foo* might be too confusing in infix 2016-12-03T18:57:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, lisp and Haskell aside I think python is one of ghe best major 2016-12-03T18:57:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Languages around 2016-12-03T18:57:43Z aeth: Lots of file names, URLs, etc., use hyphens. It makes no sense that variables can't, just so people can be lazy with the - operator, and cause confusion, like the whole (while x-->0) thing in C++ 2016-12-03T18:57:57Z aeth: or however it's written, can't be bothered to find the real syntax :p 2016-12-03T18:58:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, the problems with python are nothing like the problems with PHP or JavaScript or ruby 2016-12-03T18:58:22Z aeth: Right. 2016-12-03T18:58:50Z aeth: The problems imo are (1) opinionated, (2) no care for speed, and (3) not Pythonic enough in syntax. 2016-12-03T18:59:08Z aeth: I'm adding #3 to my list from earlier because I'd really like to force "1 + 1 * 3" instead of letting "1+1 *3" be legal 2016-12-03T18:59:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Opinionated is an advantage 2016-12-03T18:59:45Z aeth: And implicit return, even in non-Lisps, is very useful for brevity that isn't confusing once you're used to the language 2016-12-03T18:59:49Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Opinionated against FP, though. 2016-12-03T18:59:57Z aeth: Read about it 2016-12-03T19:01:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have. But I don't really find fp in python that bad. Especially with list/set/dict comprehensions 2016-12-03T19:02:03Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:02:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways this is probably off-topic :) 2016-12-03T19:02:25Z _death: I find most python code I read less terrible than say Java, but still full of loops and straight-line assignments (leads to tons of names) that make it quite low level compared to how it could be.. i.e. I still see manual macroexpansion and boilerplate everywhere. I suppose it's sometimes easier to write the macroexpansion than the macro, so there's that. 2016-12-03T19:02:36Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: LOOP is the CL list-comprehension and it's also so much more powerful 2016-12-03T19:03:05Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I thought the subject was comparing Python to CL, which is half in topic 2016-12-03T19:03:19Z aeth: s/in topic/on topic/ 2016-12-03T19:03:23Z borodust: CL wins 2016-12-03T19:04:21Z zshlyg: what about code-reuse or modularity? It seems python gains alot there. CL kind of forces you to rewrite, add a macrolayer to get it "your way" etc.. 2016-12-03T19:04:22Z borodust: if not, u know, there's also #python channel somewhere probably ;p 2016-12-03T19:04:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: _death Yeah one of my constant frustrations with python was the lack of macros. Especially since I knew about lisp but never really got it until fairly recently. But, for the last year or so, I've never really had any use for python except maintenance 2016-12-03T19:05:10Z aeth: My frustration with most languages is the expression/statement distinction. Macros are nice to have but mostly optional 2016-12-03T19:05:55Z aeth: I rarely write macros for my CL code. Higher order functions are usually equivalent and clearer. 2016-12-03T19:06:29Z aeth: There's not much of a difference between a typical macro that takes a body and one that takes a lambda 2016-12-03T19:07:08Z zshlyg: aeth: yes, I also think that is the way forward. Macros kind of gets in the way sooner or later. The lambda forms you can process and perhaps compile away. 2016-12-03T19:08:18Z aeth: I see macros as sort of the final layer of a program, to clean it up to syntactical perfection at the end... which of course rarely happens. The only exceptions are ones with clear patterns like do-foo and with-foo, imo. 2016-12-03T19:08:41Z aeth: Patterns can manage the disadvantages of CL-style macros a bit. 2016-12-03T19:09:43Z aeth: If your macro doesn't fit a macro pattern, it might be too fancy. 2016-12-03T19:09:59Z Arathnim: Are you excluding language extensions, like iterate and pattern matching? 2016-12-03T19:10:19Z _death: nonsense.. you just need good taste.. :) 2016-12-03T19:10:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah. I like being able to wrap of 2016-12-03T19:10:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Writing API clients in macros, for example 2016-12-03T19:10:59Z aeth: Arathnim: Yes, but most of the macros I use from others also fit a clear pattern, too, like alexandria's doplist 2016-12-03T19:11:38Z aeth: I'd say do-foo and with-foo are the two main macro patterns, at least ime. 2016-12-03T19:11:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: S/of/boilerplate of/ 2016-12-03T19:11:52Z aeth: with-foo handles quite a bit of boilerplate 2016-12-03T19:12:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: With define-foo macros. 2016-12-03T19:12:20Z aeth: ah, oops 2016-12-03T19:12:28Z aeth: define-foo is just as popular, yes 2016-12-03T19:13:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then there are various versions of let to hide promises 2016-12-03T19:13:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: And get you out of callback hell 2016-12-03T19:13:30Z _death: I suppose may remark seems macro-focused, but you could also replace macroexpansion with inlining.. instead of using higher order functions they keep writing the same code over and over. 2016-12-03T19:13:54Z aeth: yes 2016-12-03T19:14:54Z aeth: I agree 2016-12-03T19:14:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also I've been thinking of using macros to embed a statically typed lisp in my programs for when I feel like writing Haskell 2016-12-03T19:15:12Z _death: so Norvig's python code is great.. but the typical code, not so great 2016-12-03T19:15:59Z aeth: _death: to be fair, Python is mostly where beginners start to program (if they're lucky) until they get frustrated by one of its limitations 2016-12-03T19:16:09Z aeth: So it'll skew things a bit 2016-12-03T19:16:28Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:16:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: These days people start with JavaScript 2016-12-03T19:16:33Z _death: aeth: usually when I read python it's not programs written by newbies.. 2016-12-03T19:16:47Z aeth: Python's probably the best beginner language besides maybe Racket. JS, Java, C, etc., are all worse for that thing 2016-12-03T19:17:44Z aeth: s/that thing/learning programming/ 2016-12-03T19:17:48Z aeth: I should be clearer. 2016-12-03T19:18:36Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I thought CL macros can't really handle types? 2016-12-03T19:19:14Z _death: aeth: it's simply that certain style is encouraged that is less than ideal for any complex program.. and you have to work within these limits.. in CL you can usually break out and come up with something that makes more sense, from the small things to the big things 2016-12-03T19:20:13Z aeth: Different purposes. The promise of CL is probably closer to something like Java or C++ than a scripting language 2016-12-03T19:20:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: With 2016-12-03T19:20:19Z axion: I don't like Python's "only one way" philosophy 2016-12-03T19:20:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ugh iPhone client 2016-12-03T19:21:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways. You just have your macro compile your statically typed lisp dialect to common lisp. Although I haven't thought this through much 2016-12-03T19:21:42Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:22:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically the macro would use a code walker or something the way parenscript does 2016-12-03T19:23:05Z aeth: CL can drop down to just about any level of abstraction or go up to just about any level of abstraction, with some issues with GC and cache friendliness at the low level and some issues where at the highest levels you are probably making your own language. 2016-12-03T19:23:54Z aeth: This isn't too unlike something like C++, where you can go a bit lower, but need libraries far more, and basically have to embed someone else's scripting language. 2016-12-03T19:24:07Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T19:24:47Z _death: aeth: ugh, I think that is very much unlike C++ 2016-12-03T19:25:15Z aeth: Interestingly, CL has lower level strings in a sense compared to C. C-style strings are how I'd expect them to be in a Lisp that put characters in lists, complete with null-terminating 2016-12-03T19:25:34Z aeth: _death: The role is similar, the means are very different 2016-12-03T19:25:56Z _death: aeth: it's OK, I tend to compare Haskell with C++ :) 2016-12-03T19:33:09Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:33:27Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:34:29Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:37:18Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:42:44Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T19:43:56Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T19:47:31Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:50:19Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-03T19:51:11Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-03T19:52:16Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-03T19:55:50Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:00:03Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T20:01:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:02:44Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:03:54Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T20:03:55Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-12-03T20:04:17Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-03T20:04:20Z Spelndid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T20:04:48Z Spelndid joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:05:55Z H4ns: Xach: http://bit.ly/2h5SMvB (skippy on ccl on a raspberry pi driving the game frame hardware) 2016-12-03T20:06:39Z tshirts4crime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T20:06:40Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:08:29Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T20:11:24Z attila_lendvai: H4ns: that link doesn't work for me 2016-12-03T20:11:30Z sweater quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-03T20:11:31Z axion: Neither for me 2016-12-03T20:11:48Z H4ns: hm. ok, will fix. 2016-12-03T20:11:50Z H4ns: thanks 2016-12-03T20:12:48Z H4ns: does https://goo.gl/photos/3eFV2PkDqGUDFZCw8 work for you? 2016-12-03T20:17:54Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T20:19:25Z attila_lendvai: H4ns: yes, thanks! 2016-12-03T20:21:06Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:21:17Z Fare: attila_lendvai, hi! 2016-12-03T20:21:27Z attila_lendvai: hi Fare 2016-12-03T20:21:59Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-03T20:22:26Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-03T20:27:36Z H4ns: Xach: https://goo.gl/photos/3eFV2PkDqGUDFZCw8 it is. 2016-12-03T20:28:53Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:34:45Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-03T20:38:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:42:05Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:42:09Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:42:40Z quazimod3 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:42:58Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-03T20:43:02Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T20:43:10Z quazimod4 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:46:18Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T20:48:10Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:49:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:49:09Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:49:17Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T20:52:26Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-12-03T20:52:39Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:05:43Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:07:18Z fourier: is where a pattern on how to exit prematurely (unwind-protect (progn ..)) block? 2016-12-03T21:07:50Z fourier: basically exit progn and perform cleanup steps is unwind-protect 2016-12-03T21:08:10Z Bike: use return or throw or error or something? maybe i don't understand the question. 2016-12-03T21:08:36Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:08:43Z fourier: (return) doesn't help: "Error: Not inside a block named NIL." 2016-12-03T21:08:52Z Bike: ...well, yes, you need to use return correctly. 2016-12-03T21:08:54Z Bike: clhs block 2016-12-03T21:08:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_block.htm 2016-12-03T21:09:24Z fourier: i've replaced progn with (block stuff .. (return-from stuff) ..) and it works for me. 2016-12-03T21:09:33Z younder: fourier, return-from and name the block (or use the function name) 2016-12-03T21:09:39Z Bike: so you have (unwind-protect (block ...))? 2016-12-03T21:09:49Z fourier: Bike: yes 2016-12-03T21:09:55Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:09:59Z fourier: that is why I'm asking is where a pattern to do it easier - block looks too low-level to me 2016-12-03T21:10:02Z Bike: i think you might have misunderstood what unwind protect does 2016-12-03T21:10:02Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:10:30Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:10:39Z Bike: for one thing, (unwind-protect form) is just the same as form, the cleanup forms are what make it different. but maybe you're just eliding them 2016-12-03T21:11:04Z Bike: for two, if you do (unwind-protect (block nil ... (return ...) ...) ...) you're not actually exiting the unwind protect with that return 2016-12-03T21:11:43Z fourier: yes I want cleanup forms to be executed. I just have some if-stmt inside the block to stop execution earlier (but still perform cleanup forms) 2016-12-03T21:12:21Z Bike: i'm just saying that if the only "exit" is with that return, there is no difference between using unwind-protect and progn 2016-12-03T21:13:01Z fourier: no, there are 2 exits: end of the block and this return inside the block. in both cases I need cleanup forms to be executed 2016-12-03T21:13:23Z fourier: or maybe even more exits, in simplest case it is 2 2016-12-03T21:14:10Z Bike: (defun test (n) (block nil (when (oddp n) (return)) (print 'even)) (print 'cleanup)) 2016-12-03T21:14:17Z Bike: (test 3) => CLEANUP. (test 4) => EVEN, CLEANUP 2016-12-03T21:14:53Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:16:25Z fourier: in my case there could be some conditions raised as well so I want to execute the cleanup form 2016-12-03T21:16:32Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T21:16:40Z Bike: ok. 2016-12-03T21:17:00Z Bike: just, it's important to understand what a non local exit is 2016-12-03T21:18:41Z fourier: yes thanks.. will try to make the code simplier 2016-12-03T21:18:54Z akkad: which is the proper test for two rerferences to the same object? 2016-12-03T21:19:24Z Bike: eq 2016-12-03T21:19:25Z fourier: akkad: eq ? 2016-12-03T21:19:49Z akkad: thanks 2016-12-03T21:19:53Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2016-12-03T21:19:59Z Bike: er, actually glossary wise "same" means eql 2016-12-03T21:20:19Z Bike: you probably don't care much about fixnum identity though 2016-12-03T21:23:42Z ogkloo joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:25:57Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:28:34Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-03T21:29:07Z younder: It is rare to see unwind-protect used in functions. It is used in macroes like with-open-file to make sure the file get's closed if something goes wrong. Here you would use return-from 2016-12-03T21:30:55Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:32:21Z quazimod3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:32:30Z quazimod4 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:32:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:32:49Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:33:06Z quazimod2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:35:22Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-03T21:37:20Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T21:37:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:40:06Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T21:41:00Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-12-03T21:44:13Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:44:16Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T21:45:04Z Fare: younder: false, you use it in call-with- functions, and almost NEVER in macros. 2016-12-03T21:45:35Z Fare: if you use it in a macro, you're probably doing it wrong. 2016-12-03T21:45:54Z fourier: younder: yes I probably could rewrite my code as a macro, but it is only one function I use it in so no actual reason to write a macro 2016-12-03T21:50:03Z Tex_Nick quit (Quit: In Linux, We Trust) 2016-12-03T21:53:27Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-03T21:54:01Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T22:00:08Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-12-03T22:00:58Z warweasle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T22:04:21Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-03T22:05:23Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-03T22:07:42Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:08:57Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:21:44Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-03T22:23:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:25:47Z warweasle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T22:26:49Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:32:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:38:58Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T22:41:21Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-03T22:43:48Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:50:06Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:53:14Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:55:30Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T22:56:04Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:57:06Z axion: Fare: I was wondering what the standard is for their values. I can see for example :source-control is a 2-element list in asdf.asd. I was wondering what defining this actually does. Does any software read from this? What exactly are the purpose of these fields, other than visual aid, if we cannot specify custom ones? Is this merely meant to standardize what is described in a system, or are the field names 2016-12-03T22:57:09Z axion: actually queried by asdf or other libraries for certain purposes? 2016-12-03T22:59:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:59:13Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:59:17Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:59:31Z quazimod3 joined #lisp 2016-12-03T22:59:52Z Fare: axion: no standard yet. Please submit. 2016-12-03T23:00:32Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-03T23:00:53Z Fare: if you write a standard, then herd all the cats from Quicklisp into adopting it, and/or write a parser than WARNs those who stray for the standard until they comply and then you make it an error... in about two years, you can get the "lisp community" to follow you. 2016-12-03T23:01:33Z axion: Ok, I'm moreso wondering what the purpose of the fields are, other than for humans. 2016-12-03T23:01:37Z Fare: my informal practice is a list of method and URL, i.e. (:git "https://github.com/fare/fare-scripts") or something. 2016-12-03T23:02:05Z Fare: axion: I'm not sure anymore. quicklisp-projects seems to be more of a definitive source. 2016-12-03T23:02:17Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-03T23:02:31Z Fare: axion: I believe my approach was (1) decide that component-properties were a mistake 2016-12-03T23:02:36Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-12-03T23:02:40Z 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http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 2016-12-03T23:28:01Z _death: see description for :probe 2016-12-03T23:28:56Z jsjolen: _death: Ah, I see, I should've read the code more carefully before I bothered anyone. 2016-12-03T23:31:15Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-03T23:31:27Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-03T23:33:56Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T23:35:10Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-03T23:36:29Z pvaneynd_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T23:37:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-03T23:38:32Z moei joined #lisp 2016-12-03T23:40:35Z jsjolen left #lisp 2016-12-03T23:40:38Z quazimod4 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-03T23:42:27Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-03T23:43:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T23:44:14Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-03T23:45:32Z younder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-03T23:51:10Z drot joined #lisp 2016-12-03T23:53:01Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-12-03T23:59:41Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:00:36Z younder joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:01:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-04T00:04:43Z aeth: PCL is on the front of HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13096576 2016-12-04T00:05:37Z aeth: This is actually the first time I've seen Lisp there in a while, but it's hard to actively check that site because articles decay off of the front page quickly. 2016-12-04T00:06:40Z fnord_ is now known as CrazyEddy 2016-12-04T00:09:07Z papachan: aeth yeah was reading that also 2016-12-04T00:11:55Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-04T00:13:18Z Spelndid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T00:13:45Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-04T00:23:52Z White_Flame: I do like HN's content format, but I hate that it's not just a chronological list of articles you can page through and catch up to your last read point 2016-12-04T00:25:36Z Lord_Nightmare: yeah that annoys me too 2016-12-04T00:26:34Z akkad: if you (setf foo "bar") and you want reference a variabled named bar, and you just have foo passed. will (intern foo) do it? 2016-12-04T00:26:52Z Bike: no 2016-12-04T00:27:09Z Bike: if foo is a dynamic variable you can use symbol-value. if it's lexical, it's not possible 2016-12-04T00:27:11Z White_Flame: you need to know which package 2016-12-04T00:28:06Z White_Flame: also, bar in your source code will likely read as BAR, while (intern "bar") will yield |bar|, since it skips the reader which performs the upcase 2016-12-04T00:30:40Z White_Flame: it'd be far better to (setf foo 'bar) 2016-12-04T00:31:44Z akkad: perfect thanks 2016-12-04T00:32:09Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:43:24Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T00:44:14Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:45:14Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2016-12-04T00:45:28Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:46:25Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T00:49:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T00:49:38Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T00:50:03Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:54:40Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:57:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: 90% of the hn thread is people criticizing Quicklisp for some reason. 2016-12-04T00:57:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: 2016-12-04T00:57:25Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-04T00:58:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I exagerate a bit, but still, this is the second time I've seen this on HN. 2016-12-04T00:58:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: from 21 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12938269 2016-12-04T01:02:12Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T01:03:44Z BlueRavenGT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T01:04:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-04T01:04:35Z Xach: There's no accounting for taste. 2016-12-04T01:04:41Z stardiviner quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-04T01:07:50Z warweasle: Xach: I have no taste for accounting. 2016-12-04T01:11:42Z Fare quit 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The md5 system depends on sbcl internals not accessible in a custom core under certain conditions 2016-12-04T01:39:36Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T01:39:41Z axion: Solved, not a ql problem 2016-12-04T01:42:19Z Xach: ahh. 2016-12-04T01:42:33Z Xach: Is it an implicit dependency? I try to catch and report those. 2016-12-04T01:43:03Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-12-04T01:43:32Z axion: Its sb-rotate-byte not available if SBCL_HOME is unset with a custom core IIRC 2016-12-04T01:46:14Z mach joined #lisp 2016-12-04T01:46:58Z giraffe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-04T01:48:48Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T01:51:58Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Killed (card.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-12-04T01:53:58Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T01:55:51Z axion: Xach: yeah, for me SBCL_HOME must be set to the sbcl installation when using a custom core, otherwise SBCL_HOME's value is "." in the image. Alternatively, I get pass --no-sysinit instead to fix it. 2016-12-04T01:56:00Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-04T01:56:06Z axion: I don't think this is a problem, just a bit of prior misconfiguration on my part 2016-12-04T01:56:12Z Xach: ah ok 2016-12-04T01:56:40Z itruslove joined #lisp 2016-12-04T01:57:03Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-12-04T01:57:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-04T01:58:07Z axion: A third solution is to (require 'sb-rotate-byte) before dumping the core 2016-12-04T01:59:10Z giraffe joined #lisp 2016-12-04T01:59:36Z axion: The strange thing is I do not have a system init file...only a user init (~/.sbclrc) and only the usual quicklisp bit in there. So I'm unsure why setting --no-sysinit sets SBCL_HOME correctly 2016-12-04T02:00:04Z Xach: strange! 2016-12-04T02:02:39Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:03:57Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T02:04:11Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:05:20Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:05:57Z quazimod2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:06:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:06:17Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:06:39Z quazimod3 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:10:12Z fendral joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:12:53Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-04T02:13:07Z fendral: Is there a way to tell if i left a loop because of an until condition or because i went through the full list ? 2016-12-04T02:13:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T02:14:17Z fendral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/da173e2f161d8931a17a6523b5d14637 2016-12-04T02:14:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T02:15:31Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:15:56Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:16:27Z fendral: so in that code would it be possible to know when i exit out of the loop because of the until (>= counter cut-off-number) or if it iterated through each peg in guess and there were no more pegs? 2016-12-04T02:17:15Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:18:59Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:21:54Z pillton joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:22:33Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-04T02:23:20Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:26:55Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-04T02:27:00Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:27:45Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:29:14Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:31:45Z Xach: fendral: Not directly. Out of curiosity, what would you do different in the different situations? 2016-12-04T02:33:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:35:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:35:42Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:37:09Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:37:16Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:41:12Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:42:24Z warweasle quit (Quit: bed) 2016-12-04T02:43:59Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T02:47:48Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:48:21Z fendral: if it breaks out early i would increment counter by 1 otherwise leave it alone i think? i think i actually realized i don't have to increment the counter if i just use the proper cutoff value 2016-12-04T02:52:42Z slavka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T02:53:47Z slavka joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:56:53Z mach joined #lisp 2016-12-04T02:59:39Z fendral quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-12-04T02:59:53Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-04T03:08:25Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:09:57Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:13:50Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:16:16Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T03:20:33Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-04T03:21:03Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-04T03:22:30Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T03:23:54Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:30:19Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-12-04T03:41:00Z reepca` joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:41:02Z |3b| quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-12-04T03:41:32Z |3b|` joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:42:24Z quasisan1 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:42:40Z reepca quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-12-04T03:42:42Z quasisane quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T03:45:11Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T03:45:31Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:45:51Z M-moredhel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T03:45:52Z Tetsuo[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T03:45:52Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T03:45:52Z M-Illandan quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T03:45:52Z harlequin78[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T03:45:53Z lugus35[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T03:45:54Z Omarnem0[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T03:49:46Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:50:00Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T03:54:13Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:54:49Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-12-04T03:57:06Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T03:57:23Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:58:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T03:59:16Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-04T03:59:47Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:59:56Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-12-04T03:59:56Z Trystam quit (Changing host) 2016-12-04T03:59:56Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:00:16Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:02:07Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T04:02:20Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-12-04T04:08:34Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:11:49Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-04T04:14:39Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-04T04:15:27Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T04:15:35Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:15:47Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:16:26Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T04:18:21Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:18:33Z Omarnem0[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:19:35Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-12-04T04:21:54Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-04T04:22:18Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:22:18Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:22:18Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:22:19Z harlequin78[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:22:25Z Tetsuo[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:22:25Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:27:49Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T04:28:41Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:29:02Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T04:29:30Z ahungry joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:30:06Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:30:40Z tax joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:30:44Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T04:32:39Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-04T04:32:51Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-04T04:32:57Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:35:08Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:35:29Z akkad: "quicklisp makes lisp insecure due to their use of double rot-13 for encryption" 2016-12-04T04:37:22Z _death: when it doubt, quad it out 2016-12-04T04:41:40Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:42:13Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T04:42:45Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-04T04:43:24Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-04T04:43:46Z akkad: reading comments on lisp topics on hn is like those on bsd. usually quite uninformed on the topic. 2016-12-04T04:43:50Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:44:12Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-04T04:44:18Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-12-04T04:44:18Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:49:22Z aeth: It's not just HN... everywhere where Lisp is discussed, it's clear that the author hasn't really used Lisp 2016-12-04T04:49:41Z akkad: yeah 2016-12-04T04:49:49Z aeth: (Obviously not *everywhere* literally) 2016-12-04T04:50:29Z aeth: And people love being loose with language. The main area where this applies in Lisp is using "Lisp" to refer to both "the Lisp family of languages" and "Common Lisp" simultaneously, while still being specific about e.g. Scheme or Clojure 2016-12-04T04:50:45Z akkad: yeah 2016-12-04T04:50:54Z aeth: So if Lisp on the PDP-11 did something the incorrect way, it'll count as points against "Lisp" in a language comparison 2016-12-04T04:51:16Z aeth: like here... https://eev.ee/blog/2016/12/01/lets-stop-copying-c/ 2016-12-04T04:51:37Z aeth: "most older Lisps" don't have a module system 2016-12-04T04:51:44Z akkad: converting some folks at work. high level constructs and disassemble helps 2016-12-04T04:52:35Z aeth: and then that translates to a "91.7% rating" for "Lisps" here. https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/5fwce0/lets_stop_copying_c/danvoww/ 2016-12-04T04:52:49Z aeth: and the game of telephone about Lisp continues 2016-12-04T04:53:00Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-04T04:55:15Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-04T04:56:18Z aeth: akkad: The way I'd pitch Common Lisp is that it's like a scripting language, but with real data structures and a proper numerical representation. 2016-12-04T04:57:18Z aeth: So many scripting languages are 10 levels removed from everything, possibly relying on a JIT for performance. 2016-12-04T04:59:15Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-04T04:59:18Z aeth: That someone can do something like (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 32)) already makes it more powerful than quite a few languages of comparable features. 2016-12-04T05:00:09Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:01:50Z akkad: nice 2016-12-04T05:02:05Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:04:51Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T05:05:09Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:05:53Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:06:04Z FareWell joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:06:44Z FareWell left #lisp 2016-12-04T05:12:10Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:14:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T05:17:09Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-04T05:18:08Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T05:21:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:21:41Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:22:09Z eschatologist: I wanted to use Xach's timer package, but (ql:quickload :timer) appears to pull in a ton of dependencies. Is that expected? 2016-12-04T05:24:32Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:25:00Z eschatologist: Oh, it appears that that's trying to pull in the Gendl timer subsystem. 2016-12-04T05:26:01Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2016-12-04T05:26:49Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:26:53Z quazimod3 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:27:32Z gendl: Oh sorry about that. Will rename (or remove) the timer system for next time. 2016-12-04T05:28:35Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-12-04T05:29:15Z gendl: a quick fix for now would be to copy Xach's timer system into local-projects/. 2016-12-04T05:29:31Z eschatologist: Or to use trivial-timers, since my needs actually are pretty trivial. :) 2016-12-04T05:29:35Z phoe: Hey beach! 2016-12-04T05:29:38Z beach: zshlyg: In what way do you think Common Lisp "forces you to rewrite"? 2016-12-04T05:29:42Z eschatologist: Thanks though! 2016-12-04T05:33:23Z quazimod3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-04T05:33:36Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-04T05:33:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T05:33:40Z quazimod2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T05:43:40Z albertoefg joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:43:58Z albertoefg: hi :) 2016-12-04T05:44:05Z beach: Hello albertoefg. 2016-12-04T05:44:19Z albertoefg: i am learning to program 2016-12-04T05:44:35Z albertoefg: and i am learning lisp with emacs 2016-12-04T05:45:03Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:45:13Z albertoefg: is there a real difference at the begging if i learn common lisp or emacs lisp 2016-12-04T05:45:46Z beach: albertoefg: For simple stuff, they are similar. 2016-12-04T05:47:12Z albertoefg: oh i see beach :) 2016-12-04T05:47:26Z albertoefg: and which do you like the most beach 2016-12-04T05:47:43Z beach: albertoefg: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so my answer will be biased. 2016-12-04T05:48:12Z albertoefg: ohh :) 2016-12-04T05:48:16Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T05:48:23Z albertoefg: i didn't know that 2016-12-04T05:48:30Z beach: Now you do! :) 2016-12-04T05:48:55Z albertoefg: :) 2016-12-04T05:49:55Z albertoefg: and what kind of thing are discussed here 2016-12-04T05:49:57Z albertoefg: help? 2016-12-04T05:50:00Z albertoefg: learning? 2016-12-04T05:50:04Z beach: Sure. 2016-12-04T05:50:11Z beach: Anything related to Common Lisp. 2016-12-04T05:50:25Z albertoefg: do you recommended any website to learn 2016-12-04T05:51:13Z quasisan1 is now known as quasisane 2016-12-04T05:51:14Z beach: minion: Please tell albertoefg about PCL. 2016-12-04T05:51:15Z minion: albertoefg: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2016-12-04T05:51:51Z albertoefg: ohh great beach thanks :) 2016-12-04T05:51:58Z beach: Anytime! 2016-12-04T05:52:21Z albertoefg: and how are you my friend 2016-12-04T05:52:30Z beach: ? 2016-12-04T05:52:32Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T05:54:12Z albertoefg: yes you beach how are you :) 2016-12-04T05:54:24Z albertoefg: is middle night for me 2016-12-04T05:54:34Z beach: Oh, I see. I am fine. But that's off topic. :) 2016-12-04T05:56:10Z reverse_light joined #lisp 2016-12-04T05:57:20Z albertoefg: just wanted to be polite :) 2016-12-04T05:58:01Z beach: I understand. 2016-12-04T05:58:45Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-04T06:00:17Z jibanes joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:19:19Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:21:47Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:23:34Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T06:26:38Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-04T06:29:42Z cyberlard quit (Changing host) 2016-12-04T06:29:42Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:31:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T06:35:27Z neoncontrails quit 2016-12-04T06:38:12Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:46:01Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-04T06:48:34Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-04T06:49:43Z vtomole joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:49:58Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:50:00Z alpert_ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:50:04Z alpert quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T06:52:08Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:54:38Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-12-04T06:59:34Z vtomole: I probably made a stupid mistake that i can't track, but how does asdf look for asd files exactly?n a s I have project iub-directory of local-projects in quick lisp, but asdf can't find it. 2016-12-04T06:59:53Z vtomole: *in 2016-12-04T07:01:02Z beach: vtomole: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF.html#Configuring-ASDF 2016-12-04T07:01:17Z beach: I don't know how true that is for newer versions of ASDF. 2016-12-04T07:03:53Z jackdaniel: vtomole: try (ql:register-local-projects) 2016-12-04T07:04:01Z vtomole: beach! hey! I didn't know you work on weekends. 2016-12-04T07:04:06Z jackdaniel: in general asdf has a collection of search functions, one of the providers is quicklisp 2016-12-04T07:05:14Z beach: vtomole: I try to put in a few hours. But generally speaking, I am busy with other stuff. Today I will have lunch guests, so a lot of cooking to do. 2016-12-04T07:07:36Z vtomole: Awesome! 2016-12-04T07:08:04Z vtomole: Nice to see you here too jackdaniel 2016-12-04T07:08:40Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-04T07:08:51Z jackdaniel: I'm constantly on irc 2016-12-04T07:09:03Z jackdaniel: I'm monitoring it even during sleep :D 2016-12-04T07:09:28Z vtomole: haha :) 2016-12-04T07:12:45Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2016-12-04T07:13:42Z vtomole: beach: I'm actually trying to create my own repl using sicl-reader, I created a directory called Interpreter under SICL and also created interpreter.asd under that, but asdf can't find it for some reason. 2016-12-04T07:14:32Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T07:15:18Z Bike: is it in quicklisp local projects or what? 2016-12-04T07:15:28Z vtomole: yup 2016-12-04T07:16:05Z Bike: try... uh... i guess jackdaniel already told you how to fix it actually 2016-12-04T07:18:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-04T07:19:02Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T07:21:18Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2016-12-04T07:22:43Z vtomole: Thanks jackdaniel, I just had to enter the command twice. 2016-12-04T07:22:56Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T07:28:02Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-12-04T07:34:03Z vtomole: beach: You said the repl at ./Code/Compiler/Extrinsic-environment/repl.lisp doesn't work, but how about the one in ./Code/Backends/Extrinsic-HIR-compiler/repl.lisp? 2016-12-04T07:37:37Z Bike: if you want a repl you could just do it yourself with READ and EVAL and so on, no? are you doing something fancy? 2016-12-04T07:38:15Z vtomole: No, just getting oriented with SICL, I'm new to the the project :) 2016-12-04T07:38:31Z Bike: i mean, you don't need anything in sicl for it 2016-12-04T07:39:14Z Bike: (loop (print (eval (read)))) is the basic version, but extending it just means adding restarts and the variables and boring things like that 2016-12-04T07:39:49Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-12-04T07:40:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think vtomole wants a repl for SICL. 2016-12-04T07:41:29Z vtomole: I kind figured that, but i wasn't sure. beach told me that he usually develops SICL in SICL, right now I'm just shadowing symbols and such. He said that he won't be able to do that until he catches up to the update in cleavir. I'm just trying to figure out what he normally does. 2016-12-04T07:41:47Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-12-04T07:42:51Z Bike: well, SICL is a bunch of submodules... i don't think you need to load it as a whole thing 2016-12-04T07:43:05Z Bike: like, if you want to work on the sequence functions you just load those 2016-12-04T07:43:14Z Bike: that's more or less what i do for cleavir, though it's sort of a special case 2016-12-04T07:44:09Z vtomole: That's exactly what I've been trying to wrap my head around. If it's a cl implementation, then shouldn't there be a system that allows me to use the whole thing in one go? 2016-12-04T07:44:21Z beach: vtomole: I don't think anything works at the moment. It is not even possible to create a first-class global environment. I need to catch up with recently added methods that are required on global environments. 2016-12-04T07:45:01Z beach: vtomole: I use SBCL as a host when I develop SICL. 2016-12-04T07:45:03Z Bike: vtomole: it's a collection of tools for implemenations. maybe like the difference between a pile of microchips and a computer? 2016-12-04T07:47:28Z beach: vtomole: SICL is definitely a Common Lisp implementation, but it is not finished yet, so you can't build it. I have gotten as far as being able to create a REPL inside SBCL, so that I use most of the data types from SBCL (numbers, conses) and its memory management. 2016-12-04T07:47:29Z beach: But it uses the SICL first-class global environment, so I can have the SICL definitions of macros and functions. But right now, this doesn't work because of what I said before. 2016-12-04T07:48:11Z vtomole: Bike that's what i needed to hear, beach probbaly said that a lot of times, and i still thought it was a collection of modules AND it also had a system that put these modules together for you to have a full cl system. 2016-12-04T07:48:50Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T07:49:21Z Bike: i mean, he'd know better than me, obviously 2016-12-04T07:52:22Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-04T07:52:57Z rashmirathi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-04T07:53:53Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-12-04T08:01:50Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T08:01:55Z vancan1ty quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-04T08:09:26Z beach fears that he is not expressing himself very clearly. 2016-12-04T08:13:08Z Bike: extrinsic environments and all are exotic, anyway 2016-12-04T08:16:14Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T08:22:29Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2016-12-04T08:22:36Z S1ohy quit 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2016-12-04T09:28:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like (and vector (not simple-array) (satisfies fill-pointer-p)) 2016-12-04T09:29:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't think any optimizations happen as a result of satisfies. 2016-12-04T09:29:33Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-12-04T09:30:29Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-12-04T09:30:32Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-04T09:31:54Z phoe: There's no optimization. 2016-12-04T09:32:03Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T09:32:41Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-12-04T09:32:53Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-12-04T09:39:06Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2016-12-04T09:46:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-04T09:53:02Z avery joined #lisp 2016-12-04T09:53:44Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T10:00:34Z shka_: i simply want to be more specific 2016-12-04T10:05:17Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-04T10:06:01Z eivarv quit (Quit: Quit) 2016-12-04T10:07:23Z eivarv joined #lisp 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2016-12-04T15:18:37Z tristero joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:19:57Z varjag: what's the situtation with ecl and cffi? 2016-12-04T15:20:07Z varjag: any set of preferrable build flags? 2016-12-04T15:20:40Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T15:22:42Z jackdaniel: it should "just work" 2016-12-04T15:23:12Z jackdaniel: varjag: ↑ 2016-12-04T15:23:26Z varjag: ok.. i built one using --with-dffi 2016-12-04T15:23:31Z varjag: maybe should just drop that 2016-12-04T15:23:47Z jackdaniel: whenever possible ECL builds with dffi enabled 2016-12-04T15:23:56Z jackdaniel: (that means – practically always) 2016-12-04T15:24:04Z jackdaniel: unless you explicitly disable it 2016-12-04T15:24:45Z varjag: i see 2016-12-04T15:24:54Z jackdaniel: I've hit 88% today :-) https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/milestones/7 2016-12-04T15:26:33Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-04T15:26:48Z varjag: swift pace :) 2016-12-04T15:28:08Z varjag: cffi throws grovel error on me when i try loading my project in ecl 2016-12-04T15:28:14Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:28:33Z varjag: ":INPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle" 2016-12-04T15:28:34Z jackdaniel: do you have recent ecl? updated quicklisp dists? 2016-12-04T15:28:53Z varjag: cloned from the repo today 2016-12-04T15:28:58Z jackdaniel: yeah, I know that one 2016-12-04T15:29:16Z varjag: ql should be recent too 2016-12-04T15:29:19Z jackdaniel: see https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/272 2016-12-04T15:29:34Z jackdaniel: and https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/42 2016-12-04T15:30:01Z jackdaniel: the gist of it is that run-program can't run with gray-streams 2016-12-04T15:30:07Z jackdaniel: because it needs file handler 2016-12-04T15:30:55Z varjag: and that's what cffi does, when calling out to gcc 2016-12-04T15:31:03Z varjag: hm 2016-12-04T15:31:04Z jackdaniel: if grovel uses *standard-input*, then running ecl from console (not from slime) should work 2016-12-04T15:31:41Z bdr3552 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:32:51Z varjag: jackdaniel: thanks, it did the trick 2016-12-04T15:33:32Z jackdaniel: implementing support for streams w/o fd for run-program will require a fair amount of coding, so it won't happen before 16.1.3 for sure 2016-12-04T15:34:12Z jackdaniel: (unless someone happens to implement that and make a PR ;) 2016-12-04T15:34:14Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:34:22Z varjag: no rush for me, i'm just testing out how cl-pjsip stands platform wise 2016-12-04T15:35:08Z varjag: (tested cl-jpeg on this ecl build while at it, works fine) 2016-12-04T15:35:08Z jackdaniel: ah, I saw an announcement :) 2016-12-04T15:38:42Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:40:19Z Fare: varjag, are you using uiop:run-program ? 2016-12-04T15:40:56Z Fare: jackdaniel, any chance of fixing run-program on Windows? 2016-12-04T15:42:06Z jackdaniel: if I'll have time left after fixing all milestone issues 2016-12-04T15:42:11Z Fare: varjag: if not using Windows, you might have some luck with uiop:run-program (maybe with :force-shell t) 2016-12-04T15:42:27Z jackdaniel: it's grovel's call, not varjag's 2016-12-04T15:42:41Z varjag: yep, not me directly 2016-12-04T15:42:50Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T15:42:55Z Fare: jackdaniel, did you see my implementation of make-build on top of the supported asdf API ? 2016-12-04T15:43:18Z jackdaniel: I did 2016-12-04T15:43:53Z Fare: I'm not currently planning to add it to the next asdf release, but if you want I can add it as a deprecated style-warning-emitting function in 3.2.0 2016-12-04T15:44:13Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T15:44:37Z imprfcto joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:44:38Z imprfcto: hei 2016-12-04T15:44:48Z jackdaniel: ECL probably stays with 3.1.7.26 anyway, I'm not sure if I like the direction asdf is heading 2016-12-04T15:44:52Z imprfcto: is it possible to build android aps with lisp? 2016-12-04T15:44:57Z imprfcto: is there some toolkit? 2016-12-04T15:45:02Z Fare: what don't you like about it? 2016-12-04T15:45:03Z jackdaniel: imprfcto: ECL works on Android 2016-12-04T15:45:16Z jackdaniel: check out this experimental app: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android 2016-12-04T15:45:17Z imprfcto: what's the toolkit/sdk? 2016-12-04T15:45:38Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:47:17Z jackdaniel: ASDF becomes less build system and more systemd-like all-in-one tool. Also it constantly grows in size without well defined goals 2016-12-04T15:48:27Z drmeister: Hello 2016-12-04T15:48:39Z jackdaniel: o/ 2016-12-04T15:48:54Z jackdaniel: I need to fix the mess in the kitchen, see you later (: 2016-12-04T15:49:51Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-04T15:49:52Z drmeister: ASDF is an excellent operating system that needs a decent build system? 2016-12-04T15:50:47Z drmeister: Nah - that's a lousy nerd joke. 2016-12-04T15:53:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-04T15:56:01Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T15:59:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-04T16:00:53Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T16:03:16Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:03:35Z complain_ left #lisp 2016-12-04T16:04:50Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:06:15Z russellw- joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:06:39Z resttime joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:07:10Z Tex_Nick quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-04T16:07:16Z dim: well I would like for ASDF to provide an easy way to setup an image with all the installed systems marked as such at restart, so that you can quickload your main program without having to load again all the dependencies 2016-12-04T16:07:41Z dim: that would allow for --self-upgrade to work in pgloader 2016-12-04T16:07:52Z dim: I can only make it work on the developper machine currently :( 2016-12-04T16:08:21Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T16:08:40Z dim: https://github.com/renard/cl-image-builder is supposed to fix that but requires that I stop using buildapp 2016-12-04T16:08:49Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:09:13Z russellw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T16:11:15Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:11:16Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-04T16:11:34Z jackdaniel: dim: I think that if you make your dependency as (:require system-name), then if this system is already loaded asdf won't reload it 2016-12-04T16:11:36Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:11:42Z jackdaniel: but you have to verify that 2016-12-04T16:11:44Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T16:12:06Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:12:06Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:13:48Z dim: I currently use :depends-on, will have a look, thanks! 2016-12-04T16:13:54Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-04T16:14:13Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:14:14Z jackdaniel: :depends-on ((:require #:foo) #:bar) 2016-12-04T16:14:24Z jackdaniel: something like that, Fare will know for sure 2016-12-04T16:14:32Z jackdaniel: whenever I'm wrong here 2016-12-04T16:14:34Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2016-12-04T16:15:22Z manuel__ quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-04T16:15:23Z jackdaniel: dim: or try to load your system with (require-system 'pgloader) 2016-12-04T16:15:43Z jackdaniel: it shouldn't reload already-loaded comopnents neither I suppose 2016-12-04T16:16:11Z dim: I started a discussion here but don't have the energy to tackle it now I'm afraid 2016-12-04T16:16:28Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-04T16:16:38Z dim: spent too much time having a build system that works for my users, who don't care a dime about CL and just want things to work 2016-12-04T16:16:39Z jackdaniel: dim: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#index-require_002dsystem 2016-12-04T16:17:02Z jackdaniel: I think this is a thing you actually need 2016-12-04T16:17:04Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T16:17:12Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:18:16Z dim: I'm making a mental note to replace asdf:load-system with asdf:require-system in my self ugprade routine at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/main.lisp#L130 2016-12-04T16:20:07Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:21:57Z dim: It does it by calling load-system with a keyword option excluding already loaded systems 2016-12-04T16:22:08Z dim: well I already use asdf:load-system :force-not 2016-12-04T16:22:52Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:22:58Z dim: so it's all about having asdf:already-loaded-systems have the proper list at image restart, IIUC, and I've been working on that without success in the past already 2016-12-04T16:23:47Z strelox` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T16:23:56Z jackdaniel: ah, OK 2016-12-04T16:24:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:24:44Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:24:52Z Fare: dim: trying to depend on a (cl:require "foo") thingie? 2016-12-04T16:25:16Z dim: nope 2016-12-04T16:25:27Z Fare: dim: actually, no, don't use require-system just yet 2016-12-04T16:25:28Z dim: or at least not intentionnaly, I'm only using asdf promitives here 2016-12-04T16:25:47Z Fare: in asdf 3.3, require-system will become much less attractive 2016-12-04T16:26:15Z Fare: because asdf will manage a whole session of nested operate calls, and they can't have conflicting :force settings 2016-12-04T16:26:40Z creat joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:27:00Z dim: error-system-too-complex 2016-12-04T16:27:24Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp 2016-12-04T16:27:35Z dim: if you can have a look here and advice, that would be very welcome 2016-12-04T16:27:39Z Fare: and/or maybe I'll just remove the :force-not from require-system and leave the (unless (component-loaded-p ...) ...) correctly added by jackdaniel 2016-12-04T16:27:45Z Fare: yeah, that's the solution... thanks! 2016-12-04T16:27:51Z Fare: and yes, life is hard 2016-12-04T16:28:47Z Fare: so, you can keep your require-system, if you want, but I do not recommend it anywhere but the interactive command-line 2016-12-04T16:28:59Z Fare: especially not as part of .asd files 2016-12-04T16:29:27Z dim: I'm currently doing (asdf:load-system :pgloader :verbose nil :force-not *self-upgrade-immutable-systems*) 2016-12-04T16:30:09Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:30:10Z dim: but that still fails because when starting from an image then asdf thinks no system has been loaded yet, and so it only operates correctly on a full dev environment 2016-12-04T16:30:33Z dim: what I want is for my users to get a bug fix with git clone pgloader and pgloader --self-upgrade-from ./path/to/git/clone 2016-12-04T16:30:50Z dim: after all the image contains the full SBCL (or CCL) facilities... 2016-12-04T16:30:55Z Fare: dim: that file LGTM 2016-12-04T16:31:40Z Fare: except of course that a general solution for CFFI dll loading is called for 2016-12-04T16:32:00Z Fare: and/or using bazel for static libraries 2016-12-04T16:32:34Z Fare: not sure I understand your failure mode 2016-12-04T16:32:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:33:02Z Fare: do you or don't you want to reload the dependencies? 2016-12-04T16:33:09Z dim: see main.lisp at the same address and --self-upgrade argument processing (link above) 2016-12-04T16:33:18Z dim: I don't want to reload dependencies 2016-12-04T16:33:33Z dim: target used isn't having them locally, has no clue of CL, has not setup a dev env 2016-12-04T16:34:17Z jackdaniel: dim: maybe define a separate system pgloader/no-dep which has just files? 2016-12-04T16:34:25Z jackdaniel: and on upgrade load that one 2016-12-04T16:34:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T16:35:19Z Fare: woot, you use command-line-arguments ! 2016-12-04T16:35:21Z dim: that's an idea too, yeah ; or I could just kill the --self-upgrade option now that the Makefile works well enough for users 2016-12-04T16:35:37Z dim: it used to be quite complex to build pgloader, it's not anymore 2016-12-04T16:35:51Z dim: oh and I also have a "bundle" distribution now that I think about it 2016-12-04T16:35:59Z jackdaniel: dim: I'll have some questions to you in some time about ql-to-deb 2016-12-04T16:36:16Z dim: I just though it was crazy cool for CL to allow for --self-upgrade as a way to distribute patches/bug-fixes around 2016-12-04T16:36:24Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:36:27Z Fare: dim: do you want a :type :directory in your call to parse-unix-namestring ? 2016-12-04T16:36:41Z dim: jackdaniel: now is a good time, I'm killing another 20 mins or so before moving in the outside cold ;-) 2016-12-04T16:36:42Z jackdaniel: because part 3 of https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-Quarterly-Volume-V.html#orgheadline24 will be about software deployment 2016-12-04T16:36:51Z jackdaniel: dim: nah, I haven't started part 3 yet :D 2016-12-04T16:36:57Z jackdaniel: I'm sweating on the part 2 about McCLIM 2016-12-04T16:37:01Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:37:12Z Fare: jackdaniel, will you mention bazel? deploying mostly-statically-linked sbcl images rocks. 2016-12-04T16:37:44Z jackdaniel: I doubt it 2016-12-04T16:38:16Z dim: Fare: I like command-line-arguments yes, it's simple and to the point ; tho for "modern" style command lines (git inspired) I have developped something else entirely that you can see e.g. at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/utils/cli-parser.lisp (use case at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/pgcharts.lisp) 2016-12-04T16:38:19Z deank quit 2016-12-04T16:38:30Z Fare: dim: have you tried CLON ? 2016-12-04T16:38:34Z jackdaniel: dim: have you heard about Comman Line Option Nuker? 2016-12-04T16:38:40Z jackdaniel: it's covered in the link I've posted above 2016-12-04T16:38:47Z jackdaniel: (small introduction to it at least) 2016-12-04T16:38:53Z Fare: for multi-call binaries, I wrote and use cl-scripting. 2016-12-04T16:38:57Z jackdaniel: clon has awesome documentation and works very well 2016-12-04T16:39:16Z Fare: CLON is a wonderful case of over-engineering. 2016-12-04T16:40:07Z dim: ASDF is not far away in the competition, if you allow me saying that 2016-12-04T16:40:32Z jackdaniel: I think CLON has well defined goal and implements it in very elegant fashion 2016-12-04T16:40:32Z dim: Fare: links to that bazel thing? 2016-12-04T16:40:38Z jackdaniel: hardly overengineered 2016-12-04T16:41:01Z dim: and I didn't try CLON because it's doing lots of things I don't care about, last I checked 2016-12-04T16:41:17Z Fare: dim: in some ways yes, in others, no — ASDF is vastly under-engineered in some ways. But backward-compatibility is its motto "if it's not backwards, it's not compatible" 2016-12-04T16:41:34Z varjag: heh 2016-12-04T16:41:45Z Fare: dim: https://github.com/qitab/bazelisp 2016-12-04T16:41:48Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-04T16:42:24Z dim: I admit I started CL very late and don't care much about compatibility with things I don't even know existed before 2016-12-04T16:42:43Z Fare: but yes, my last month-and-a-half making asdf properly support defsystem-depends-on when obviously only 2 people on earth care (Attila and I), is probably over-engineering. 2016-12-04T16:42:55Z dim: jackdaniel: Comman thing, never heard about it 2016-12-04T16:42:59Z deank joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:43:16Z jackdaniel: dim: imo it's worth looking into it 2016-12-04T16:43:28Z Fade: I like CLON a lot. 2016-12-04T16:44:01Z fiddlerwoaroof also likes CLON 2016-12-04T16:44:39Z dim: Fare: how easy it is to try/build pgloader with bazel and have the C libs statically linked in the binary (ssl, freetds, sqlite) 2016-12-04T16:44:53Z Fare: dim: backward-compatibility eats you year after year: you only have to be compatible with last week's software, but by induction... 2016-12-04T16:45:14Z Fare: dim: very easy, as long as there are recipes for those libraries already... 2016-12-04T16:45:23Z _death: I also wrote a define-command thingy a few years ago.. supported &required/&value/&presence arguments 2016-12-04T16:46:34Z Fare: asdf-tools also has its ad-hoc define-cmd thingy, but it's designed for backward compatibility with being invoked three ways: lisp repl, make rule, shell command. 2016-12-04T16:47:01Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:48:35Z dim: jackdaniel: oh but it's clon again, right? 2016-12-04T16:49:59Z jackdaniel: dim: the thing worth looking into? yes :)https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php 2016-12-04T16:50:21Z jackdaniel: (website is in French, but resourcces are in English, bottom of the page) 2016-12-04T16:50:58Z dim: yeah I've been having a good look at it back when I needed to pick something, did pick command-line-arguments (much simpler and to the point), then grew my own command line thingy for git-like "verbs" approach 2016-12-04T16:51:09Z dim: anyway, termio support, completion, etc? no thanks 2016-12-04T16:52:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I like about it is that you define your command line arguments by basically defining your help page. 2016-12-04T16:52:03Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:52:28Z dim: things I'm worried about in pgloader are more like how to extend the command language I designed without falling into the trap of inventing a poor programming language, such as in https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/477 2016-12-04T16:53:04Z dim: or rather how to extend the community around the project 2016-12-04T16:53:17Z dim: jackdaniel: I'm french, no pb here ;-) 2016-12-04T16:53:26Z jackdaniel: ah 2016-12-04T16:53:50Z dim: (also I like what clon is, I just don't think it solves my problems) 2016-12-04T16:54:37Z dim: oh and I should move now, have a good sunday! (or what's left of it anyway) 2016-12-04T16:54:45Z jackdaniel: you too, thanks o/ 2016-12-04T16:54:46Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T16:55:26Z dim: and ql-to-deb, when you want! I'm not often here anymore, use email if you want ;-) 2016-12-04T16:55:39Z jackdaniel: will do, thanks 2016-12-04T16:57:01Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:57:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-12-04T16:59:48Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Is there a way to return immediately and return output/input streams so I can interact with the program? 2016-12-04T17:45:55Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-04T17:46:45Z Fade: how many of you guys use sly over slime? 2016-12-04T17:47:53Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2016-12-04T17:48:45Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T17:50:10Z Fare: dim: to discard the output, instead of with-output-to-string (*standard-output*), consider let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) 2016-12-04T17:52:28Z otjura quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-04T17:55:05Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-04T18:02:05Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-04T18:04:28Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T18:05:42Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:05:51Z flip214: luis: look for uiop:launch-program in the git version (or the latest release, if it's younger than a week); 2016-12-04T18:05:59Z flip214: else, use uiop:%run-program 2016-12-04T18:14:16Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:14:56Z mvilleneuve quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-12-04T18:15:19Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:17:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:18:02Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-04T18:19:32Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:19:56Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T18:22:12Z Tex_Nick quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-04T18:26:51Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:29:10Z bdr3552 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T18:29:35Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:31:55Z rjid left #lisp 2016-12-04T18:34:40Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:35:08Z nrp3c joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:37:12Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T18:38:32Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:38:36Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:40:31Z prole joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:40:37Z tristero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-04T18:43:39Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-04T18:44:29Z warweasle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T18:47:31Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-04T18:48:58Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-04T18:49:03Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:50:39Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:53:08Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:53:40Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:55:32Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-04T18:58:06Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:58:24Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T18:59:47Z axion: Fade: I do 2016-12-04T19:00:16Z axion: I know of at least 2 others here that do as well. 2016-12-04T19:02:49Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-04T19:10:12Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-04T19:11:16Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T19:14:41Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T19:15:28Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:19:18Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:22:55Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T19:23:00Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:23:29Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:25:37Z rashmirathi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T19:25:55Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:28:11Z Amplituhedron quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-04T19:29:01Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:29:49Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T19:31:16Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:33:58Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:33:58Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-12-04T19:34:59Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:36:33Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T19:42:43Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T19:43:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T19:44:12Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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He can be found on #lispgames if you want to reach him with any questions. 2016-12-04T20:55:41Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T20:57:00Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T21:01:02Z jurov: pls anyone can quickly point me how to create binary tcp socket? 2016-12-04T21:01:17Z jurov: there are so many socket libs and none mentions this... 2016-12-04T21:01:49Z _death: that very tutorial shows how 2016-12-04T21:02:07Z mrottenkolber: jurov: depends on which API you want to use :D 2016-12-04T21:02:42Z mrottenkolber: jurov: i.e. in Clozure socket streams are bivalent by default 2016-12-04T21:03:06Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T21:03:27Z jurov: i'm on sbcl, thanks :) 2016-12-04T21:03:39Z jurov: _death: that tutorial does not contain the word "binary", should i read id closely? 2016-12-04T21:03:40Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-12-04T21:03:41Z jurov: *it 2016-12-04T21:04:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-04T21:04:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-12-04T21:04:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-04T21:04:10Z mrottenkolber: jurov: it wouldn’t be called binary, look for :element-type 2016-12-04T21:06:37Z jurov: ah that's it. ty. 2016-12-04T21:07:33Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-12-04T21:08:09Z _death: jurov: netcat -l -p 8080 | (let ((s (iolib:make-socket))) (iolib:connect s (iolib:lookup-hostname "localhost") :port 8080) (write-byte 42 s) (close s)) 2016-12-04T21:08:52Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T21:11:01Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-04T21:11:07Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Has the project been around for a while? f 2016-12-04T22:15:40Z malice: What's the operation that ,@ performs called? 2016-12-04T22:15:48Z _death: splicing 2016-12-04T22:15:51Z malice: thanks! 2016-12-04T22:16:37Z mrottenkolber: Xach: working on it for some time now, the github repo has been up for a couple months. other than that... its the name of a town? :-) 2016-12-04T22:19:13Z malice: How can I get documentation for a class? 2016-12-04T22:19:28Z malice: I tried (documentation 'class-name 'class) but it didn't work 2016-12-04T22:20:00Z _death: (documentation (find-class 'class-name) 't) 2016-12-04T22:20:20Z Bike: hm, it's under (documentation classname 'type) 2016-12-04T22:20:59Z _death: Bike: nice 2016-12-04T22:22:11Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T22:22:25Z malice: _death: that's a bit ugly though 2016-12-04T22:22:39Z malice: Bike: is that supposed to work? 2016-12-04T22:22:47Z Bike: yes 2016-12-04T22:22:51Z Bike: it does, even 2016-12-04T22:22:57Z malice: I must be doing something wrong then. 2016-12-04T22:23:13Z Bike: (defclass foo () () (:documentation "test")) (documentation 'foo 'type) => "test" 2016-12-04T22:23:21Z malice: aaah 2016-12-04T22:23:29Z malice: you ommited the quote before classname 2016-12-04T22:23:33Z malice: but attached it to the type 2016-12-04T22:23:39Z malice: I thought you were supposed to omit it there 2016-12-04T22:23:44Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:23:45Z malice: this works, you're right, thanks. 2016-12-04T22:23:46Z Bike: documentation is just a function 2016-12-04T22:24:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-04T22:24:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:25:11Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:26:14Z Guest35216 is now known as sword 2016-12-04T22:26:22Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:27:10Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:28:11Z _death: mrottenkolber: intro looks good.. the last image has two agent 1s on the bottom left.. 2016-12-04T22:28:17Z S1ohy- joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:28:58Z S1ohy- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T22:28:58Z S1ohy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T22:29:29Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:29:57Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:31:46Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T22:31:54Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:33:01Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-04T22:33:16Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:34:11Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:34:28Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:34:42Z JoshYoshi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:34:44Z antonv: anyone uses roswell for Travis CI testing on github? 2016-12-04T22:35:22Z mrottenkolber: _death: good catch, thanks! 2016-12-04T22:39:52Z antonv: Why does cl+ssl Travis CI run fails on ECL with this error: https://travis-ci.org/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/jobs/181199920 2016-12-04T22:40:02Z antonv: :OUTPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle: 2016-12-04T22:40:32Z antonv: Is it because the ASDF version provided by that ECL is too old? 2016-12-04T22:40:40Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:41:30Z antonv: (ASDF had this bug on ECL - https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1232225, but launchpad says it is fixed in ASDF 3.0.3" 2016-12-04T22:42:07Z antonv: How can I find out what ECL version is used by roswell when run by Travis CI?" 2016-12-04T22:43:35Z Quadrescence: Has someone written a utility to count the # of logical processors? 2016-12-04T22:43:49Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:43:51Z adlai: antonv: most trivially, stick a (print (append *features* (mapcar 'funcall '(lisp-implementation-version lisp-implementation-type)))) in your travis-ci script 2016-12-04T22:47:26Z solidslatedrive_ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:47:38Z antonv: adlai: trying that, thanks 2016-12-04T22:47:39Z solidslatedrive_ is now known as solidslatedrive 2016-12-04T22:47:54Z solidslatedrive quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-04T22:48:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:51:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-04T22:55:53Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T22:58:15Z antonv: adlai: I did this: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/commit/44ee9e8bdfcd457b54ec2c6c73a0595e112b8eae 2016-12-04T22:58:32Z antonv: It fails now: https://travis-ci.org/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/builds/181203842 2016-12-04T22:58:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T22:58:55Z antonv: Complains about line 27 (https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/master/.travis.yml#L27) 2016-12-04T22:59:40Z antonv: What mapping values the error message means? 2016-12-04T23:00:22Z antonv: is it about the colon symbol? 2016-12-04T23:03:02Z fourier quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-12-04T23:03:06Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:03:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Quadrescence: does parsing /proc/cpuinfo help? Or are you not on linux? 2016-12-04T23:03:49Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:04:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:04:08Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:05:05Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-04T23:07:12Z borodust: Quadrescence: I'm plannig to use hwloc for this sort of thing 2016-12-04T23:07:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: On SmartOS/Solaris, there's a lxproc filesystem that can be mounted (or you can use psrinfo) and on FreeBSD, you can use linprocfs. On OSX `sysctl -n hw.ncpu` 2016-12-04T23:07:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://stackoverflow.com/a/1715612/13099 2016-12-04T23:07:50Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:08:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also a C API for sysctl on OSX: http://stackoverflow.com/a/22330309/13099 2016-12-04T23:09:07Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:09:10Z borodust: fiddlerwoaroof, Quadrescence: hwloc doing this cross-platformly 2016-12-04T23:09:13Z quazimod3 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:10:15Z borodust: althou might be a burden, cuz gonna be a foreign dependency 2016-12-04T23:11:08Z Quadrescence: fiddlerwoaroof, I would prefer a cross-platform solution 2016-12-04T23:11:29Z Quadrescence: fiddlerwoaroof, for unix I just ended up groveling, which is not ideal 2016-12-04T23:12:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, most of the modern unices have a linux-like proc file system available, which makes life easy 2016-12-04T23:13:09Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T23:13:11Z borodust: @all, how does asdf resolves system by its name _and_ version? I need to find system to fetch its metadata, but asdf:find-system does not accept version as an argument. 2016-12-04T23:13:21Z Quadrescence: If you can make a function I'll use it :D fiddlerwoaroof 2016-12-04T23:13:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been thinking about this :) 2016-12-04T23:13:34Z quazimod2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T23:13:34Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T23:13:34Z quazimod1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T23:13:34Z quazimod3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T23:14:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T23:14:10Z Quadrescence: On winders back a couple years ago, I shelled out to get the answer 2016-12-04T23:14:39Z Quadrescence: using `echo %NUMBER_OF_PROCESSORS` 2016-12-04T23:15:41Z _death: could be nice to have osquery bindings 2016-12-04T23:20:40Z Fare: borodust, it resolves only by name, then checks the version 2016-12-04T23:20:50Z Fare: asdf does version checking, not version resolution. 2016-12-04T23:25:28Z kregol joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:27:18Z Fare: borodust, the main problem with making asdf better than that is that existing .asd files are quite imperative, not declarative 2016-12-04T23:27:24Z Fare: that's a problem with CL in general. 2016-12-04T23:27:36Z borodust: Fare, i see 2016-12-04T23:27:40Z borodust: thank you 2016-12-04T23:27:49Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:27:59Z kregol: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-12-04T23:27:59Z Fare: even worse when asdf itself is being extended -- how would you deal with two different extensions to ASDF? 2016-12-04T23:28:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:28:47Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:28:56Z Fare: In an imperative setting of "let's side effect global variables, global OO definition tables, etc.", it's quite hard to maintain many versions of software at the same time. 2016-12-04T23:29:07Z Fare: unless you go all CL-in-CL virtualization. 2016-12-04T23:29:33Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-04T23:29:35Z pillton: We should look in to fixing this. 2016-12-04T23:29:49Z borodust: Fare, is breaking compatibility an option? 2016-12-04T23:30:25Z Fare: pillton: fixing the global side-effect philosophy of CL? Not gonna happen. Have a good CL-in-CL virtualizer? Conceivable... but then you might as well implement CL in Racket. 2016-12-04T23:30:35Z Fare: borodust, yes and no 2016-12-04T23:31:09Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-04T23:31:10Z pillton: Fare: Well you could make some headway by fixing packages. 2016-12-04T23:31:11Z Fare: I mean, you can, but then, what's the point of a 25-year-old standard to a 50-year-old language? 2016-12-04T23:31:24Z borodust: smth like in opengl: core profile and compatibility profile 2016-12-04T23:31:37Z borodust: not discarding old systems 2016-12-04T23:31:53Z Fare: pillton, sure, but since there are plenty of semi-maintained packages, and maintainer response is not guaranteed, you may have to end up forking hundreds of packages. 2016-12-04T23:32:09Z borodust: more like, want new features out of new version adsf? specify some sort of flag 2016-12-04T23:32:17Z Fare: Everything is possible and a SMOP. Choose your SMOP carefully. 2016-12-04T23:32:45Z borodust: this way all old packages would work as intended 2016-12-04T23:33:02Z Fare: borodust, I thought about that, of course. It's possible. Just a lot of work. Or maybe not — not going to happen with me, but if you want to try, go for it! 2016-12-04T23:33:49Z Fare: you'll probably have to decree that most ASDF extensions will be unsupported, etc., and provide a different extension mechanism. 2016-12-04T23:33:57Z borodust: well, every time I want to do smth involving asdf api, my head starts spinning with near light-speed when i'm looking into sources 2016-12-04T23:34:11Z Fare: And you have something like cl-test-grid to evaluate the impact of various forms of incompatibilities. 2016-12-04T23:34:29Z Fare: borodust, I'm willing to explain the source code, document it better, etc. 2016-12-04T23:34:47Z Fare: As part of the 3.2.0 push, I've walked through all the files, and added a lot of docstrings and comments 2016-12-04T23:35:29Z fiddlerwoaroof likes to be able to load old systems without worrying about whether ASDF will be a problem. 2016-12-04T23:35:34Z Fare: as part of the 3.3.0 branch in the pipeline, I've split a few files further, to make it clearer and cleaner, in addition to fixing the incrementality in presence of staging. 2016-12-04T23:36:20Z borodust: thing is, asdf is embedded into cl implementations these days, so when I'm trying to look up source from slime, there's none 2016-12-04T23:36:48Z Posterdati: does anyone experienced problem compiling sbcl 1.3.12 on x86-64? 2016-12-04T23:36:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: borodust: sbcl lets you specify a path to a copy of its source code 2016-12-04T23:36:54Z borodust: it is probably configurable, but i didn't look into that 2016-12-04T23:37:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location "/home/edwlan/sbcl-source/sbcl-1.2.15/") 2016-12-04T23:37:25Z borodust: fiddlerwoaroof: thing is, i can see sbcl sources, but not asdf's ;p 2016-12-04T23:37:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting. 2016-12-04T23:38:03Z borodust: like, M-. on some form, and it jumps to sbcl sources for that form 2016-12-04T23:38:18Z Fare: Posterdati, I didn't try 1.3.12 exactly, but a recentish git checkout had no issue 2016-12-04T23:38:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Posterdati: I've compiled a recent-ish git version of sbcl 2016-12-04T23:38:20Z borodust: if i do that on asdf or uiop - it can't 2016-12-04T23:39:01Z Posterdati: I experienced some problems with corrupted image during compilation from tha latest git version 2016-12-04T23:39:03Z Fare: borodust, you can install the asdf sources, and become able to M-. 2016-12-04T23:39:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: No problem, there was a sort of bug with package-locks that stassats fixed for me. 2016-12-04T23:39:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I had ...) 2016-12-04T23:39:28Z Posterdati: the official one from the site, compiles, but then generates an error loading quicklisp helper 2016-12-04T23:39:43Z Fare: but, yeah, I long had plans to not have to build a single asdf.lisp but instead compile asdf from many files and make sbcl happy 2016-12-04T23:39:45Z rashmirathi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-04T23:40:06Z Fare: basically, adding cross-compilation support to asdf. 2016-12-04T23:40:20Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:40:21Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-04T23:40:22Z Fare: which is now possible in a way it wasn't before, but still far away 2016-12-04T23:42:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Posterdati: you might try #sbcl, they've been very helpful when I've had issues. 2016-12-04T23:43:43Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-12-04T23:46:33Z moei joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:47:17Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-04T23:47:26Z brh joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:48:41Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:51:37Z Jubb joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:51:38Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:52:00Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-04T23:53:09Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-04T23:53:48Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-04T23:55:40Z warweasle quit (Quit: f) 2016-12-04T23:58:15Z antonv: jackdaniel: Hello. What ASDF version is used in ECL 16.1.2 ? 2016-12-04T23:58:37Z pillton: antonv: (asdf:asdf-version) 2016-12-04T23:58:59Z antonv: pillton: yes, but I don't have this ECl installed 2016-12-05T00:00:36Z phoe: antonv: "3.1.5.4" 2016-12-05T00:00:41Z phoe: $ ecl --version 2016-12-05T00:00:41Z phoe: ECL 16.1.2 2016-12-05T00:00:57Z phoe: But then I have Quicklisp installed and loaded if it matters. 2016-12-05T00:01:00Z antonv: phoe: thanks 2016-12-05T00:01:03Z phoe: Wait. 2016-12-05T00:01:11Z phoe: What is the command to load ECL without its init file? 2016-12-05T00:01:21Z antonv: I don't know, why? 2016-12-05T00:01:33Z phoe: Does the ASDF version depend on whether Quicklisp is loaded? 2016-12-05T00:01:42Z antonv: Quciklisp doesn't touch ASDF as long as it satisfies Quicklisp needs (ASDF 2.something is enough) 2016-12-05T00:01:47Z phoe: Good. 2016-12-05T00:01:51Z phoe: So, that's what I get. 2016-12-05T00:01:52Z antonv: so, no, it doesn't 2016-12-05T00:01:55Z antonv: Thanks 2016-12-05T00:03:16Z phadthai: phoe: -norc 2016-12-05T00:03:33Z antonv: Strange 2016-12-05T00:04:00Z antonv: I still have this error 2016-12-05T00:04:00Z antonv: :OUTPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle: 2016-12-05T00:04:06Z antonv: It's ECl 16.1.2 2016-12-05T00:04:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T00:04:41Z phoe: phadthai: uh 2016-12-05T00:04:48Z antonv: But the ASDF-ECL bug which signals this error was fixed in ASDF 3.0.3: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1232225 2016-12-05T00:04:48Z phoe: running ECL with -norc doesn't load ASDF at *all* 2016-12-05T00:05:33Z antonv: The error happens during cffi-grovel when ECL compiles static-vectors 2016-12-05T00:07:41Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-12-05T00:08:50Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-05T00:09:24Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-05T00:10:45Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T00:11:10Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-05T00:13:28Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T00:13:30Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-05T00:14:54Z Fare: phoe: ASDF works well without quicklisp 2016-12-05T00:15:29Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T00:15:43Z Fare: Quicklisp ships with an antique 2012 version of ASDF, which happily isn't used on any implementation anymore. 2016-12-05T00:15:49Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T00:15:59Z Fare: phoe: (require "asdf") 2016-12-05T00:16:18Z Fare: there were many bugs in ASDF and/or ECL. 2016-12-05T00:16:51Z Fare: I don't know what you're trying to do, but for a version of asdf with fewer ecl bugs, try the latest from master. 2016-12-05T00:19:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Posterdati: fwiw, I have no problems building sbcl from the latest git and loading quicklisp-slime-helper 2016-12-05T00:19:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just run sh make.sh --prefix=$HOME/sbcl --fancy to build it 2016-12-05T00:20:25Z phoe: antonv: yes, it's the same without QL loaded 2016-12-05T00:22:44Z antonv: Fare: I just have this error in Travis CI build of cl-plus-ssl: :OUTPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle: 2016-12-05T00:22:58Z antonv: I googled and found this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1232225 2016-12-05T00:23:04Z antonv: which is closed in ASDF 3.0.3 2016-12-05T00:23:44Z antonv: But I have the error in ECL 16.1.2 which ships wiht ASDF 3.1.5.4 2016-12-05T00:23:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T00:24:22Z antonv: The error happens during cffi-grovel of static-vectors 2016-12-05T00:25:27Z antonv: Here is the log: https://travis-ci.org/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/jobs/181217279 2016-12-05T00:25:59Z antonv: the lisp invocation starts at line 472 2016-12-05T00:27:27Z Arathnim: How does cffi want types passed to it? Using the name as a symbol causes it to be evaluated. 2016-12-05T00:28:23Z pillton: Types should be quoted. 2016-12-05T00:29:33Z antonv: What is strange, ECl 16.0.0 and ECL 15.2.21 load static-vectors OK: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/static-vectors.html 2016-12-05T00:31:39Z Fare: antonv, oops. Which implementation? ECL? 2016-12-05T00:31:44Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T00:31:44Z antonv: ECL 16.0.0 comes with ASDF 3.1.5.6 and static-vectors is loaded without problems: http://cl-test-grid.appspot.com/blob?key=50izoc3n4d 2016-12-05T00:32:23Z antonv: Fare: yes, ECL 16.1.2 give this error with ASDF 3.1.5.4 2016-12-05T00:32:34Z Fare: antonv, uiop:run-program probably doesn't distinguish between streams that can be used with run-program and streams that can't. 2016-12-05T00:32:49Z antonv: ECL 16.0.0 with ASDF 3.1.5.6 doesn't have the error 2016-12-05T00:32:58Z Fare: for this particular application, using :force-shell t might work... or might not. 2016-12-05T00:33:15Z antonv: Strange, did ECL downgraded ASDF version? 2016-12-05T00:33:39Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T00:33:42Z antonv: Fare: you mean the problem is the # ? 2016-12-05T00:33:43Z Fare: ECL changed its underlying run-program recently 2016-12-05T00:33:50Z Fare: antonv, that's possible 2016-12-05T00:33:50Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-12-05T00:34:10Z antonv: # 2016-12-05T00:34:11Z Fare: if you want no output, use :output nil 2016-12-05T00:34:15Z antonv: :OUTPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle: 2016-12-05T00:34:26Z Fare: or is that broadcast stream actually broadcast to other streams? 2016-12-05T00:34:29Z antonv: Does it try to to get a file descriptor from a stream? 2016-12-05T00:34:41Z antonv: Fare: I don't know, that's Travis CI 2016-12-05T00:35:01Z Fare: I don't know what the code is trying to do, so I can't tell what's the solution -- but run-program has various implementation-dependent limitations :-/ 2016-12-05T00:35:26Z Fare: it apparently tries to pipe run-program output into a broadcast-stream 2016-12-05T00:35:35Z Fare: which is not allowed on ECL 2016-12-05T00:36:18Z antonv: If found who signals this error: https://searchcode.com/codesearch/view/19682489/ 2016-12-05T00:36:26Z antonv: line 511 2016-12-05T00:36:37Z Fare: if the broadcast-stream is a lispy alias for /dev/null, and if the run-program is called via the deprecated run-shell-command which does stupid thing to the output, the solution would be to use run-program directly and not be stupid 2016-12-05T00:36:41Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-05T00:36:45Z antonv: It tries to do ecl_stream_to_handle(output, 1) 2016-12-05T00:37:02Z antonv: It's ECL sources 2016-12-05T00:37:09Z deank quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T00:37:19Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-05T00:37:24Z Fare: no, the problem is not ECL, it's whoever is misusing run-program 2016-12-05T00:37:47Z Fare: ECL is unlikely to remove this limitation 2016-12-05T00:38:30Z Fare: I believe SBCL and/or CCL works around it by spawning threads that copy from one stream to the other 2016-12-05T00:39:55Z antonv: So, the buld tries to run-program and direct it's output to a broadcast stream? 2016-12-05T00:40:06Z antonv: And that doesn't work 2016-12-05T00:40:13Z antonv: But worked previously somehow... 2016-12-05T00:41:16Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T00:43:17Z antonv: Here is where cffi-grovel passes this broadcast-stream to run-program: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/grovel/grovel.lisp#L282 2016-12-05T00:44:41Z antonv: How did that work in ECL 16.0.0 ? 2016-12-05T00:45:04Z antonv: Only if it was handling the :output parameter differently, maybe spwaning a thread 2016-12-05T00:51:04Z S1ohy is now known as s1ohy 2016-12-05T00:51:40Z s1ohy is now known as S1ohy 2016-12-05T00:52:30Z antonv: I give up 2016-12-05T00:54:06Z Fare: antonv: that's probably bogus 2016-12-05T00:54:23Z Fare: use :force-shell t might help 2016-12-05T00:55:41Z Fare: and/or :output :string 2016-12-05T00:55:48Z Fare: but cffi is clearly not portable here 2016-12-05T00:55:56Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:00:28Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:00:33Z Fare: antonv, are you filing a bug against cffi? 2016-12-05T01:00:57Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:02:13Z antonv: Fare: I'm not sure it's an cffi bug 2016-12-05T01:03:00Z antonv: although 2016-12-05T01:03:12Z Fare: it is 2016-12-05T01:03:13Z antonv: In a sense it is, at least partially 2016-12-05T01:03:39Z antonv: Fare: is it forbidden by run-program contract to pass broadcast-stream to :output? 2016-12-05T01:03:43Z ym joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:04:25Z Fare: this is unlikely to work, not just on ECL, but on many other implementations with similar non-unreasonable limitations. 2016-12-05T01:05:47Z Fare: if you want the output to two streams, the portable thing to do is capture to a string, and princ the string to two streams. 2016-12-05T01:05:50Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T01:05:55Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:06:04Z antonv: Fare, I'm reading https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Some-Utility-Functions.html 2016-12-05T01:06:29Z antonv: It seems that slurp-input-stream could be used in this case 2016-12-05T01:07:17Z antonv: when output is a broadcast-stream 2016-12-05T01:11:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:12:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:15:37Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:15:48Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:16:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:17:01Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:19:11Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:23:04Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:31:23Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:36:06Z NeverDie is now known as RandomText 2016-12-05T01:41:13Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:41:26Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T01:41:36Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:41:53Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:48:07Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:52:44Z M-moredhel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:52:45Z lugus35[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:52:45Z Tetsuo[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:52:45Z harlequin78[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:52:48Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T01:52:48Z M-Illandan quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T01:52:48Z Omarnem0[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:54:02Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:56:18Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:56:19Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:56:20Z lexicall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:57:01Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-12-05T01:57:54Z nrp3c quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:58:14Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T01:58:29Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-05T01:59:15Z Quadrescence: Is DEFSYSTEM-DEPENDS-ON with CFFI-GROVEL supposed to allow me to use CFFI-GROVEL:GROVEL-FILE? Right now, it errors (no package exists), and I have to do an EVAL-WHEN atop the DEFSYSTEM. 2016-12-05T01:59:53Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:02:53Z lexicall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T02:03:03Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:03:12Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:04:52Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:05:15Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-05T02:05:54Z _death: you can use :cffi-grovel-file 2016-12-05T02:08:42Z Quadrescence: let me try that 2016-12-05T02:10:15Z Quadrescence: _death, perfect, thanks! 2016-12-05T02:12:08Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:18:53Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:21:22Z Omarnem0[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:23:02Z loke joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:24:38Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-12-05T02:25:32Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:25:32Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:25:33Z harlequin78[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-05T02:25:33Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 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It’s a bit like me calling you a meat-based processing system.) 2016-12-05T09:22:32Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:22:32Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:27:58Z josteink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T09:31:02Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:31:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:31:32Z giraffe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-05T09:32:25Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T09:34:03Z froggey joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:37:04Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:37:42Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:37:44Z giraffe joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:40:40Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T09:41:15Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:41:53Z Omarnem0[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:42:46Z itruslove joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:44:51Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:45:44Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T09:46:15Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:46:15Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:46:16Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:46:16Z harlequin78[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:46:22Z Tetsuo[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:46:23Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:48:10Z igam: flip214: there has also been some research into parallel garbage collector, multi-threaded, etc. AFAIK, CL implementations never included any of it. 2016-12-05T09:49:30Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:49:53Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T09:50:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:50:52Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-12-05T09:54:18Z flip214: igam: I'm just asking about a comparison, having some numbers would be interesting. 2016-12-05T09:55:30Z jackdaniel: Clasp uses MPS, but it's not concurrent afaik 2016-12-05T09:58:57Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T09:59:24Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:00:37Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:01:57Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:01:57Z igam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T10:03:40Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:04:05Z impaktor joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:04:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:05:04Z igam joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:05:22Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T10:06:30Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:11:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:12:29Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:12:33Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:12:41Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:14:00Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:15:59Z deank joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:20:22Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:20:55Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:22:41Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:23:13Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T10:23:51Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:26:56Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:27:20Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:28:18Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T10:29:07Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:33:07Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:34:00Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:39:38Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:40:59Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:41:47Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:43:35Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:44:54Z zshlyg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T10:45:50Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:46:00Z impaktor: Hi! I need some hints how to access elements of a GSLL foreign matrix? 2016-12-05T10:46:37Z impaktor: It seems the gsl_matrix_get function of GSL isn't bound in GSLL 2016-12-05T10:46:43Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:46:50Z impaktor: Here's a minimal example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/333354 2016-12-05T10:48:02Z impaktor: (note might need GSL version < 2 installed, as latest GSL version isn't supported) 2016-12-05T10:50:44Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:50:58Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T10:52:00Z morphism quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T10:53:02Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T10:53:14Z Posterdati: hi 2016-12-05T10:53:17Z Posterdati: impactor 2016-12-05T10:54:12Z Posterdati: impaktor: (grid:gref object indices) 2016-12-05T10:58:09Z impaktor: Brilliant! 2016-12-05T10:58:13Z impaktor: Thanks! 2016-12-05T10:58:37Z impaktor: While I'm at it, is there any way to know the length/size of these arrays? 2016-12-05T10:59:16Z Posterdati: (grid:dimensions object) 2016-12-05T10:59:22Z impaktor: In "C-style" GSL, you know that the gsl-matrix is just a struct with two size_t that holds rows and columns 2016-12-05T10:59:29Z impaktor: Posterdati: Thanks! 2016-12-05T10:59:42Z Posterdati: you're welcome, use Common Lisp!!! 2016-12-05T10:59:51Z impaktor: More general question; how do I know when to use grid: or gsl: ? 2016-12-05T11:00:21Z impaktor: Posterdati: (yeah; I'm just starting out, I really like to get my existing code ported to Common Lisp, so that's what I'm doing now) 2016-12-05T11:00:52Z Posterdati: good 2016-12-05T11:01:55Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T11:02:10Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T11:02:11Z impaktor: Code will be publicly available, in Python, and octave/matlab, and CL (I hope). 2016-12-05T11:06:08Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T11:06:10Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:06:49Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:08:27Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:08:57Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:09:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:11:33Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:11:48Z Posterdati: impaktor: what is it? 2016-12-05T11:12:56Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:13:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:14:57Z impaktor: Posterdati: Code for an article submitted to a Nature journal. 2016-12-05T11:15:24Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:15:27Z Posterdati: impaktor: what is the subject? 2016-12-05T11:15:31Z impaktor: So, current manuscript says "code available in Python". Naturally, I want to expand that. 2016-12-05T11:16:10Z impaktor: Posterdati: it's for accurate error estimation of model fitting to _correlated_ data. Something people never actually think about, i.e. a very common error. 2016-12-05T11:16:54Z impaktor: There's a user in here with nick "e"? 2016-12-05T11:17:09Z e: there is indeed! 2016-12-05T11:17:49Z impaktor: Don't you get pinged a lot? 2016-12-05T11:17:52Z impaktor: Like i.e. 2016-12-05T11:17:56Z impaktor: Or in e.g.? 2016-12-05T11:18:09Z e: yes 2016-12-05T11:18:28Z e: i keep meaning to replace my highlighting with a script that ignores those 2016-12-05T11:20:40Z impaktor: By the way, for some reason I just got to thinking about, wasn't there some "rewrite emacs in common lisp" project a few years ago? What happened to that? 2016-12-05T11:27:37Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:28:29Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:32:42Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T11:32:46Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:33:44Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:35:28Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:35:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:37:20Z loke: I don't think I have ever seen e talk here before. 2016-12-05T11:38:04Z loke: Anyway, time to go home 2016-12-05T11:38:23Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:40:43Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:40:48Z otwieracz: CLIMACS 2016-12-05T11:41:25Z otwieracz: and Hemlock 2016-12-05T11:42:03Z jackdaniel: (and Portable Hemlock) 2016-12-05T11:43:48Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:46:38Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:47:58Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:48:37Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:50:28Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:51:30Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-05T11:55:03Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:55:14Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:56:15Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:56:15Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T11:58:18Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-12-05T12:02:55Z dcluna joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:05:25Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T12:05:55Z TeMPOraL joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:06:04Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:06:40Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T12:07:14Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:07:24Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T12:07:38Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:08:50Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:10:20Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:10:27Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T12:12:21Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:12:58Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:13:01Z papachan: hello 2016-12-05T12:13:13Z papachan: (defvar res '("7" "n" "x")) 2016-12-05T12:13:19Z papachan: (coerce res 'string) 2016-12-05T12:13:25Z papachan: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2016-12-05T12:13:27Z papachan: ??? 2016-12-05T12:14:39Z Xach: papachan: you can't coerce a list of strings to a string. 2016-12-05T12:14:43Z H4ns: papachan: (coerce '(#\7 #\n #\x) 'string) => "7nx" 2016-12-05T12:14:46Z jackdaniel: papachan: try '(#\7 #\n #\x) 2016-12-05T12:14:47Z Xach: papachan: you can coerce a list of characters to a string, though. 2016-12-05T12:15:02Z Xach: You can concatenate a list of strings with apply concatenate. 2016-12-05T12:15:11Z jackdaniel: cavalry has came 2016-12-05T12:15:14Z Cymew: "rewrite emacs in common lisp" is one of the holy grails that gets talked about here once in a while. A few attempts have been made, but none have conquered the mindspace. 2016-12-05T12:15:57Z Xach: There are multiple emacses in CL in "wide" use. 2016-12-05T12:16:04Z Xach: Just not as wide as GNU Emacs. 2016-12-05T12:16:59Z Cymew: Have you found any reliable data on which one is the largest one after GNU? 2016-12-05T12:17:36Z Xach: I haven't. I would guess the LispWorks editor, but maybe it's the Clozure GUI editor. 2016-12-05T12:17:56Z Cymew: Hmmm. Sensible guesses. I had not thought of those. 2016-12-05T12:19:13Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:19:35Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:20:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:20:42Z papachan: thanks xach 2016-12-05T12:21:12Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:23:27Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:29:16Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:31:57Z foom joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:35:36Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:36:40Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:38:57Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:40:00Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T12:40:19Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:40:44Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:42:18Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-05T12:43:51Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:43:59Z Cymew: Doesn't look like any editor except GNU Emacs interface nicely with slime. Seems like a key point these days. 2016-12-05T12:44:11Z jdz: I saw a console-only emacs-like editor written in CL recently, I think by a Japanese person. 2016-12-05T12:44:35Z jdz: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem 2016-12-05T12:46:11Z Cymew: Somewhat lacking in docs. 2016-12-05T12:46:38Z jdz: Cymew: but there's a screenshot! 2016-12-05T12:46:44Z Cymew: Indeed! 2016-12-05T12:47:22Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:49:01Z Xach: Cymew: lispworks and ccl provide their own slime-like features, of course 2016-12-05T12:49:07Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:50:48Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:52:14Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:54:48Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T12:55:42Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:56:45Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-05T12:57:53Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T12:58:02Z jurov: Cymew: actually, slimv worked fine for me. except for the bugs :( 2016-12-05T13:00:25Z jurov: had to switch to emacs and hate it, evilmode goes too much against muscle memory 2016-12-05T13:00:25Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:00:41Z deank quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:00:44Z jurov: / KILLITWITHFIRE 2016-12-05T13:01:12Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:03:50Z jurov: by the time i'll be wizard enough to fix slimv, i'll be unable to properly use either :'‑( 2016-12-05T13:06:07Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:09:15Z Tex_Nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:09:20Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T13:09:34Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:10:56Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:12:13Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T13:14:49Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:15:00Z rashmirathi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:19:55Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:21:58Z pvaneynd joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:22:39Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:25:57Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:26:57Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:33:11Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-05T13:34:32Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T13:37:57Z pvaneynd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:38:39Z Cymew: Ironic 2016-12-05T13:40:16Z flip214: jurov: which bugs in slimv? perhaps I have fixes for some of them. 2016-12-05T13:41:20Z jurov: flip214: it was quite some time, i'll retry and let you know 2016-12-05T13:41:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:41:22Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:42:41Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:43:09Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:43:42Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T13:44:03Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:44:29Z Walex quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-05T13:45:22Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:45:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:46:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:46:55Z Ioann quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T13:47:14Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:48:07Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:48:09Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:48:15Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:49:38Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-05T13:52:57Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:53:10Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-05T13:54:22Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-12-05T13:54:28Z Xach holds head as antik fails to build 2016-12-05T13:55:48Z flip214: ah, antik. that's SOOOO old (judging by the name) 2016-12-05T13:57:58Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T13:58:06Z jackdaniel: if someone spawns a fork of it, he should name it "retro" :) 2016-12-05T13:59:40Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:00:17Z Cymew: What does it do? 2016-12-05T14:00:22Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T14:01:36Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:02:08Z Cymew: Hmm. Maybe "retro" would be a fitting name... 2016-12-05T14:02:18Z Xach: It is a math project 2016-12-05T14:02:21Z Xach: (I think) 2016-12-05T14:02:25Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:02:46Z Cymew: Yeah, seems like it. My spelling when searching was totally off. When I could spell, I could find it. 2016-12-05T14:05:51Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:06:39Z Xach: Hmm, it also seems not to have changed in months. I wonder what happened. 2016-12-05T14:07:09Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:10:33Z Xach: Hmm, is there any portable fstat thing? 2016-12-05T14:10:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:10:59Z Xach: I guess osicat 2016-12-05T14:12:13Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:12:16Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:15:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T14:16:34Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T14:19:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:25:29Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T14:26:01Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:28:44Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:30:45Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T14:31:48Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T14:32:12Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:33:54Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-05T14:34:49Z Xach: so many problems today 2016-12-05T14:37:45Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:38:43Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T14:39:07Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:41:30Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:41:59Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:42:12Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-05T14:42:32Z attila_lendvai: Xach: let me know if you think there's something I can help with 2016-12-05T14:42:42Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T14:43:00Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:43:27Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T14:43:46Z Xach: attila_lendvai: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-12-05/failure-report/antik.html#antik - I can't find in the code the duplicate definition it complains about in the error 2016-12-05T14:44:04Z Xach: It could be from macroexpansion that I just don't notice 2016-12-05T14:44:47Z Xach: actually, maybe it's defmobject 2016-12-05T14:45:04Z tax joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:45:15Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:45:42Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T14:45:48Z Xach: yes, indeed. i wonder how this never came up before 2016-12-05T14:47:23Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-05T14:48:51Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:49:09Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:49:14Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I think it's broken by the latest commit in gsll, dec 4 2016-12-05T14:49:26Z attila_lendvai: i.e. yesterday 2016-12-05T14:49:34Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: ping 2016-12-05T14:49:52Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: latest gsll commit is broken, see link above 2016-12-05T14:49:56Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:50:08Z LiamH: Hmm 2016-12-05T14:50:55Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T14:52:17Z LiamH: Antik, not GSLL? 2016-12-05T14:54:00Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T14:54:33Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:54:43Z impaktor: Isn't Antik part of GSLL? I've installed GSLL, and have antik through that, I believe. 2016-12-05T14:57:02Z LiamH: There is a mutual dependency of the systems, but they are separate. 2016-12-05T14:57:21Z attila_lendvai: it's gsll, that link pointing to the error is confusing 2016-12-05T14:57:29Z LiamH: defmobject is part of GSLL though, that's why I'm confused. 2016-12-05T14:58:22Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T14:58:50Z LiamH: So the easy way to handle this I guess is to roll back the last GSLL commit and worry about it later - that way Xach can go ahead with the release. 2016-12-05T15:01:16Z Xach: That would make me happier 2016-12-05T15:01:19Z Xach: (than right now) 2016-12-05T15:01:48Z Xach: zlib has a problem now too...it does (setq length ...) on an undefined variable LENGTH, and SBCL now package-locks that behavior. 2016-12-05T15:02:08Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: by "roll back" you mean make ql point to HEAD-1? (you may consider setting up a "quicklisp" git branch and then you can have easy control on what goes into ql) 2016-12-05T15:02:31Z Xach: there was a quicklisp branch 2016-12-05T15:02:32Z LiamH: Yeah, exactly 2016-12-05T15:02:51Z attila_lendvai has a zlib from CVS :~/ 2016-12-05T15:03:05Z Xach: zlib is now in gitlab but last commit was almost a decade ago 2016-12-05T15:03:07Z LiamH is not responsible for zlib, breathes a sigh of relief 2016-12-05T15:03:11Z Xach: mvilleneuve last worked on it 2016-12-05T15:03:15Z Xach eyes mvilleneuve 2016-12-05T15:03:16Z Cymew: CVS is still around? Impressive. 2016-12-05T15:03:46Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:05:19Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:05:31Z sebboh joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:06:52Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I'm looking into zlib. forked, will record a fix and contact the admins 2016-12-05T15:07:22Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:08:34Z lieven: Joerg Schilling is still maintaining SCCS so CVS is a relative youngster 2016-12-05T15:09:44Z alpert quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:10:34Z sebboh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:10:43Z impaktor: By the way, might I ask how one goes about setting an element in an array from GSLL? Say I want to put the value 42 in matrix1[1,1], I've tried: 2016-12-05T15:10:44Z impaktor: (setf (grid:aref matrix1 1 1) 42) 2016-12-05T15:10:49Z sofini joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:10:49Z impaktor: But didn't work. 2016-12-05T15:10:58Z sofini left #lisp 2016-12-05T15:10:58Z impaktor: I'm sure I'm missing something fundamental here. 2016-12-05T15:11:10Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:11:55Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:12:12Z impaktor: "didn't work" = I get an error, saying |42| is unbound 2016-12-05T15:12:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:13:24Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:14:29Z LiamH: impaktor: not sure why that didn't work. Can you send an email to the mailing list? 2016-12-05T15:14:50Z Xach: |42| unbound sounds like a read base issue. 2016-12-05T15:15:57Z impaktor: So this is the way I would operate on a grid:make-foreign-array object? 2016-12-05T15:17:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:19:11Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:19:37Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-05T15:20:05Z LiamH: Yes 2016-12-05T15:20:47Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:24:08Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T15:30:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:32:18Z feriperrimerri joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:32:26Z feriperrimerri is now known as deank 2016-12-05T15:32:58Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:35:57Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:39:47Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:41:35Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:45:57Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:49:52Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:50:17Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:52:36Z sebboh joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:54:23Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-05T15:54:45Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-05T15:55:18Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-05T15:56:01Z RandomText quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-12-05T15:57:26Z sebboh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:01:23Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T16:01:42Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:01:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-05T16:02:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:04:17Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-05T16:06:11Z russellw joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:09:17Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:09:40Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:09:57Z russellw- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:10:43Z ramus joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:11:15Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-12-05T16:11:47Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:13:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:17:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:18:56Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:19:16Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-12-05T16:23:26Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:23:31Z Xach: mvilleneuve: hello! do you want to commit to zlib? 2016-12-05T16:23:52Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:24:04Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:29:59Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T16:32:21Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:32:26Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:34:12Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T16:34:27Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:35:21Z papachan quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-05T16:35:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:35:57Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:39:00Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T16:40:28Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:40:40Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:43:30Z giraffe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-05T16:44:25Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:48:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:48:41Z itruslove joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:50:37Z LooneyTunes joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:50:41Z giraffe joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:51:03Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:53:44Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T16:54:18Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:55:27Z LooneyTunes quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-05T16:56:01Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T16:56:27Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T16:58:15Z toogley quit (Quit: toogley) 2016-12-05T16:58:39Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-12-05T16:59:32Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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a single item 2016-12-05T20:44:44Z oleo: (if test then else) 2016-12-05T20:44:50Z oleo: he meant the cases maybe 2016-12-05T20:44:56Z akkad: right. yes 2016-12-05T20:45:07Z akkad: what is the proper pattern if there is no else? 2016-12-05T20:45:08Z oleo: you can call'em branches too 2016-12-05T20:45:20Z axion1: (when test) or (unless test) 2016-12-05T20:45:23Z oleo: it will default to nil 2016-12-05T20:45:28Z _death: I call them antecedent, consequent, alternative 2016-12-05T20:45:31Z akkad: (if (null foo) (format t "nil bro~%")) 2016-12-05T20:45:58Z akkad: ok. perfect thanks. 2016-12-05T20:45:59Z oleo: if you don't want a nil branch you better go with when 2016-12-05T20:46:28Z axion1: and for more than 2 branches, you'd use cond/case/etc 2016-12-05T20:46:33Z oleo: if is a minimum-2-branch 2016-12-05T20:46:56Z oleo: ya cond is for 3 and more 2016-12-05T20:46:58Z axion1: maximum of 2 2016-12-05T20:47:19Z younder joined #lisp 2016-12-05T20:47:26Z oleo: axion1: not maximum of 2 since the tail branch can be another if branch...... 2016-12-05T20:48:02Z axion1: yeah another root of a maximum of 2 branches 2016-12-05T20:48:20Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-12-05T20:48:25Z oleo: err, yes if you want to see it that way..... 2016-12-05T20:48:28Z prxq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T20:48:35Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-12-05T20:48:45Z leco joined #lisp 2016-12-05T20:48:55Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T20:49:47Z leco left #lisp 2016-12-05T20:50:44Z jurov: on similar note, i often wonder why there isn't standard if combined with let form 2016-12-05T20:51:12Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-05T20:51:23Z jurov: when the test value is useful in the then branch 2016-12-05T20:51:49Z axion1: Not standard, but IF-LET and WHEN-LET are commonly used by me 2016-12-05T20:51:55Z axion1: They exist in alexandria for those wondering 2016-12-05T20:52:17Z warweasle: axion1: alexandria has so much and I know so little... 2016-12-05T20:52:25Z jurov: ^this 2016-12-05T20:52:43Z _death: IF translates to one branch.. here or there. WHEN is the same. usual style advice is to avoid (if (foo) (bar)) and instead use (when (foo) (bar)) .. I follow it but I have no strong opinion about using the former 2016-12-05T20:52:45Z axion1: It's pretty small tbh. Read over the documentation in a half hour 2016-12-05T20:52:53Z axion1: You'll find lots of useful things 2016-12-05T20:53:05Z akkad: alexandria is very nice 2016-12-05T20:53:54Z phoe: it is 2016-12-05T20:54:08Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-05T20:55:32Z oleo: welp you right, a branch is 1 path split into two distinct paths, the new paths can be branches themselves or not, u call the distinct paths each branches too, dunno if that's correct tho.... 2016-12-05T20:56:00Z oleo: s/u/i/ 2016-12-05T20:58:16Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T20:59:28Z younder quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-12-05T20:59:45Z younder joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:00:03Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:01:57Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:02:18Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:03:48Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:03:53Z younder quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-05T21:09:08Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T21:10:08Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:11:18Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:11:18Z M-moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:11:21Z Omarnem0[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:11:23Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T21:11:26Z jpthing joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:13:16Z White_Flame: we still have tons of use of sym-if and sym-when, as inherited from On Lisp. (sym-when var test &body then) 2016-12-05T21:13:52Z White_Flame: it's very rare that we've needed the multiple variable facility of when-let/if-let 2016-12-05T21:14:08Z White_Flame: although we've been meaning on standardizing to alexandria, replacing the overlap with our internal utils lib 2016-12-05T21:14:38Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:15:28Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:15:36Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:15:42Z axion1: Who is 'we' in this context? 2016-12-05T21:15:56Z White_Flame: my company 2016-12-05T21:16:05Z axion1: Ah nice. One of the lucky ones 2016-12-05T21:16:33Z White_Flame: anybody can have a company :) 2016-12-05T21:16:55Z White_Flame: take some papers & a few monies to local office, now you're a CEO 2016-12-05T21:16:56Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:17:10Z phoe: White_Flame: I don't recognize sym-if 2016-12-05T21:17:17Z axion1: I have an LLC, but clients want code they can maintain :) 2016-12-05T21:17:18Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:17:57Z fisxoj left #lisp 2016-12-05T21:18:04Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:18:09Z White_Flame: phoe: might have been our own renamings & extension of things 2016-12-05T21:18:15Z akkad: pgloader is easy to maintain, it downloads its own code and recompiles. :P 2016-12-05T21:19:28Z attila_lendvai: yeah, I also have a lisp company... :D (didn't have much income for quite some time now) 2016-12-05T21:20:03Z White_Flame: we're a "software company" not a "lisp company". So people don't need to know what's under the hood ;) 2016-12-05T21:20:31Z akkad: might be a nice way to afford LW/ACL 2016-12-05T21:20:41Z White_Flame: we use SBCL 2016-12-05T21:20:48Z _death: axion1: solution is easy.. provide Lisp training as well :) 2016-12-05T21:20:55Z White_Flame: we used to have an ACL license way back, but way too much money to actually ship 2016-12-05T21:21:04Z akkad: oh yeah 2016-12-05T21:21:11Z akkad: insane fees for distribution 2016-12-05T21:22:39Z warweasle: White_Flame: "Anybody can have a company" That's my plan...Just have to get a product half way done. 2016-12-05T21:22:48Z harlequin78[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T21:22:48Z lugus35[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T21:22:49Z Tetsuo[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T21:22:49Z M-Illandan quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T21:23:00Z akkad: yeah delivery for android app on LW seems ok 2016-12-05T21:26:55Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:28:33Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2016-12-05T21:29:14Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:31:47Z phoe: White_Flame: I mean, what does this macro do? 2016-12-05T21:32:09Z White_Flame: it's like if-let, except just does 1 variable 2016-12-05T21:32:28Z White_Flame: (sym-if var test then else), where 'var' is bound in 'then' if non-nil 2016-12-05T21:32:32Z phoe: got it 2016-12-05T21:32:37Z phoe: bound to nil? 2016-12-05T21:33:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T21:33:38Z White_Flame: ah, I guess it's bound in 'else' as well. (let ((,var ,test)) (if ,sym ,then ,else)) 2016-12-05T21:33:50Z White_Flame: s/sym/var/, not pasting directly 2016-12-05T21:35:09Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T21:36:40Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T21:38:36Z whartung: huh -- what's a use case for sym-if? 2016-12-05T21:39:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:40:24Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-05T21:40:30Z jackdaniel: one pair of parens less 2016-12-05T21:41:13Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T21:41:30Z jackdaniel: (sym-if (bam 3) … …) vs (if-let ((bam 3)) … …) 2016-12-05T21:41:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-05T21:41:39Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-05T21:41:41Z jackdaniel: s/if-let/let-if/ 2016-12-05T21:42:25Z jackdaniel: (it's understandable to save parens for hard times :) 2016-12-05T21:47:50Z akkad wishes there was a way to make --dynamic-space-size actually dynamic 2016-12-05T21:49:40Z joshe: I think 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joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:11:36Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:15:26Z tristero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-05T22:15:50Z tristero joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:20:25Z _leb quit 2016-12-05T22:29:48Z jasom: akkad: set it to be something huge by default, and then forget about it. 2016-12-05T22:31:27Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T22:32:10Z jasom: akkad: the only downside to it being huge is that programs with runaway allocations won't die until the OS decides to kill it. 2016-12-05T22:32:45Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:32:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T22:34:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:36:12Z akkad: yeah... it tends to eat 100% of what it's given before giving up the ghost 2016-12-05T22:37:05Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T22:37:29Z jasom: If you have a reasonably sized swap partition, linux should kill it fairly fast (when your swap is too big, it can take a really long time). 2016-12-05T22:37:57Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:38:13Z _leb joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:38:58Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:40:32Z rashmirathi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T22:41:01Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:42:16Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T22:43:09Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T22:44:12Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T22:46:04Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T22:46:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T22:47:39Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T22:48:05Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:48:25Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:50:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-12-05T22:53:09Z S1ohy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-05T22:57:34Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-05T23:00:33Z akkad: yeah never run into the runaway condition on cmucl/ccl, just sbcl. seems gc is not kicking in, with the use case I have. probably crappy code on my part 2016-12-05T23:02:41Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:03:15Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:05:14Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:07:10Z terpri joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:07:49Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:08:59Z _leb quit 2016-12-05T23:10:55Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:13:19Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:14:28Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-05T23:16:45Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:17:20Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:17:35Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-05T23:17:47Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2016-12-05T23:19:52Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:19:56Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:21:02Z pillton joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:22:10Z jasom: akkad: you can always manually invoke the GC and see if space frees up. 2016-12-05T23:27:47Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T23:28:17Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:30:04Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:32:19Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:35:31Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:36:02Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:36:04Z vap1 joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:36:15Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-05T23:37:08Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:38:13Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:39:17Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:41:03Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:47:40Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:51:01Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-05T23:52:31Z tax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-05T23:53:22Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:57:24Z BusFactor1 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-05T23:58:11Z JoshYoshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-05T23:58:58Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-12-05T23:59:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T00:00:04Z albertoefg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:00:14Z _leb joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:03:41Z manuel__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:03:44Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:04:00Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:05:24Z rlatimore quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-06T00:05:47Z scissors_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:05:59Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:06:04Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:06:10Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:07:15Z scissors_: i'm wondering how to "dump" a variable. can't seem to figure it out. example at https://gist.github.com/anonymous/9332eec487db5bb9c71d77ed0257e166 2016-12-06T00:07:22Z scissors_: many thanks! 2016-12-06T00:08:15Z jasom: scissors_: not sure quite what you want, but (format t "~S" *db-names*) might do it? 2016-12-06T00:08:17Z jasom: clhs ~S 2016-12-06T00:08:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cdb.htm 2016-12-06T00:08:26Z dcluna joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:08:35Z jasom: or prin1 for that matter 2016-12-06T00:09:15Z jasom: though in general you won't ever see (FOO . (BAR)) since that is more naturally represented as (FOO BAR) 2016-12-06T00:09:24Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-06T00:09:52Z scissors_: jasom: an example of what i hoped to see is at the bottom of the paste. i'd like to see all of symbols that I can get off of `(car *db-names*)` 2016-12-06T00:10:20Z pillton: You are using get. 2016-12-06T00:10:27Z jasom: oh, you're using symbol plists... 2016-12-06T00:10:32Z scissors_: i tried format and prin1, but they didn't seem to do it. 2016-12-06T00:10:56Z scissors_: pillton: right. i'd like a list of all of the things possible to `get` 2016-12-06T00:10:57Z pillton: The data is available in (symbol-plist *db-names*). 2016-12-06T00:11:00Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:11:16Z jasom: scissors_: 1) don't use get. 2) (symbol-plist (car *db-names*)) 2016-12-06T00:11:37Z axion: Anyone know if I should be alarmed with the following, or ways to fix it. I like clean compile logs :) (alexandria:deletef place item :count 1) results in a note: The third argument (in keyword position) is not a constant, weakening keyword argument checking. 2016-12-06T00:11:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:12:01Z scissors_: pillton, jasom: `symbol-plist` was the ticket. many thanks. 2016-12-06T00:12:03Z phoe: axion: uh? like, :count is not a constant? 2016-12-06T00:12:04Z pillton: scissors_: I'm not a big fan of storing data in the symbol plist. 2016-12-06T00:12:06Z phoe: or 1 is not a constant? 2016-12-06T00:12:33Z phoe: also what pillton said. we got objects and hashtables for that. 2016-12-06T00:12:36Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-06T00:12:43Z axion: phoe: I'm not sure. the full result is here, with the actual code in the comment: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/cdde011fee95056f3c62c6bc968b70a4 2016-12-06T00:13:11Z scissors_: pillton: well, i'm definitely a CL newb, and just going through a book that is doing it the way i mentioned. so i'm sorta going backwards to see how it's working. 2016-12-06T00:13:47Z pillton: scissors_: Sure. I'm just offering my opinion. Which book are you reading? 2016-12-06T00:14:02Z scissors_: PAIP's Prolog chapter. 2016-12-06T00:14:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T00:14:19Z pillton: Ah right. 2016-12-06T00:15:11Z scissors_: plists, are those a linear-time lookup, and hence why they're being discouraged here? 2016-12-06T00:15:51Z jasom: scissors_: the other reason is that each symbol has exactly one plist 2016-12-06T00:16:44Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:16:52Z jasom: scissors_: so either 1) The symbols will be used by other code, which might also want to use the symbol plist, or 2) the symbols won't ever be used by other code, so you could just use your own variable and any associative data type you like (plist, alist, hash, ...) 2016-12-06T00:17:23Z pillton: scissors_: That is a good book. You will learn a lot. I would just treat the symbol plist stuff as "not the main point the author wants to get across." 2016-12-06T00:17:48Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:21:56Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:24:21Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:25:41Z _leb quit 2016-12-06T00:25:50Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:28:05Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:32:23Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:34:13Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:35:50Z phoe: symbol-plist used to be used a lot in the past, in the earlier days of Lisp. 2016-12-06T00:35:59Z axion: It compiles (and works) fine with CL:DELETE instead. No worries, though not sure if I should file a bug or not 2016-12-06T00:36:32Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:36:50Z axion: attila_lendvai: maybe you can look into it, being an alexandria maintainer? 2016-12-06T00:38:58Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T00:40:06Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:40:41Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:40:46Z attila_lendvai: axion: that's expected. the only way to get rid of that is to copy-paste all the keyword args of cl:delete and cl:remove 2016-12-06T00:40:59Z scissors_: pillton: right, i was just curious as to how it was all laid out. thanks to you and jasom for helping me get sorted out. 2016-12-06T00:41:00Z attila_lendvai: ...which is doable, but... 2016-12-06T00:41:21Z albertoefg joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:41:44Z axion: attila_lendvai: ah hmm 2016-12-06T00:42:21Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-06T00:43:03Z attila_lendvai: axion: SBCL prints notes for possible but missed optimization opportunities 2016-12-06T00:43:55Z attila_lendvai: if all the keyword args would be replicated, then at (speed 3) the keyword parsing could be done at compile time 2016-12-06T00:44:07Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-06T00:45:30Z axion: I see, so you're using &rest in favor of cleaner code 2016-12-06T00:46:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-06T00:46:43Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:47:01Z attila_lendvai: it wasn't me! :) and it's not necessarily cleaner. if the underlying function wasn't fixed by the CL standard, then it would be the only correct code. 2016-12-06T00:47:59Z axion: Ok :) 2016-12-06T00:48:28Z attila_lendvai: may have been me actually. how would I remember... 2016-12-06T00:50:09Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T00:50:48Z shdeng quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-06T00:51:04Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:51:21Z _main_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T00:54:15Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2016-12-06T00:58:03Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T01:03:23Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:06:34Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T01:07:11Z S1ohy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-06T01:07:34Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T01:09:29Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:12:50Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-06T01:13:12Z swflint joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:13:12Z swflint quit (Changing host) 2016-12-06T01:13:12Z swflint joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:18:12Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:19:22Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T01:20:12Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:22:22Z ja-barr left #lisp 2016-12-06T01:23:47Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:24:59Z swflint quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T01:29:31Z rashmirathi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T01:30:58Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T01:32:03Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(i.e. position) 2016-12-06T01:58:11Z krwq: should you just create a class and don't worry or is there some better rule to follow? (i.e. use cons) 2016-12-06T01:58:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: One possibility is (defstruct (position :type vector) x y) 2016-12-06T01:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This creates position-x and position-y that can be used on any vector to get the coordinates 2016-12-06T01:59:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: It also creates make-position which returns a two-element vector 2016-12-06T01:59:34Z krwq: fiddlerwoaroof: is it possible to specialize generic functions on structs? 2016-12-06T01:59:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think so, but this isn't actually making a struct, it's making a vector 2016-12-06T02:00:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/making/defining an alias for/ 2016-12-06T02:00:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs defstruct 2016-12-06T02:00:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 2016-12-06T02:00:44Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:01:21Z Bike: you can specialize on structs if they're actually structs, yeah. 2016-12-06T02:01:32Z krwq: is there any advantage of using struct over class? 2016-12-06T02:01:50Z Bike: structs are more limited, so they might be more space efficient. 2016-12-06T02:02:07Z krwq: can you force compiler to make class as optimized as struct? 2016-12-06T02:02:23Z Bike: not really. classes just allow too much. 2016-12-06T02:03:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, you might be able to some black magic with metaclasses... 2016-12-06T02:03:17Z Bike: you could probably make a class that is like a struct, i guess. 2016-12-06T02:03:41Z travv0 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:04:01Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-06T02:04:17Z krwq: so for stuff like position i should most likely use struct, is that correct? or is there no recommendation 2016-12-06T02:04:17Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:05:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Something that occurred to me recently (although I haven't really thought it through) is that you could use your classes and generic functions as code generators inside a macro. That way, you might be able to get some of the benefits of classes and generic functions without incurring the costs at run time. 2016-12-06T02:05:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd just use a cons or a two-element vector for position. 2016-12-06T02:05:34Z Bike: you probably don't need to subclass position, so yeah, you could give that a try. 2016-12-06T02:06:06Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T02:06:21Z swflint quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T02:06:23Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:06:24Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:06:34Z swflint joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:07:34Z krwq: Thanks! I think I'll go for class for now and abstract it so that I can easily switch to something else if I feel like perf is hurting 2016-12-06T02:07:47Z Bike: yeah, that's the normal thing 2016-12-06T02:07:59Z Bike: even if you used conses or whatever you should make accessors. 2016-12-06T02:08:08Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:08:31Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T02:10:49Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:13:15Z Zhivago: krwq: Generally don't worry about it -- the GC is optimized for common cases. 2016-12-06T02:13:36Z Zhivago: krwq: If it becomes the dominating factor there are ways to mitigate it which may require some redesign. 2016-12-06T02:13:49Z krwq: sounds good :) Thank you! 2016-12-06T02:14:17Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:14:36Z Zhivago: fiddler: Which benefits would you expect to get without run-time costs? 2016-12-06T02:14:39Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:15:02Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T02:15:08Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:15:33Z travv0 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-12-06T02:15:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:17:24Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:21:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not really sure, it just occured to me as a solution for situations where generic function invocation is too expensive (i.e. in the main loop of a game or something like that) but still want to keep your code well structured. Hence, I said "I haven't really thought it through) 2016-12-06T02:24:07Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:28:44Z Zhivago: So, where static dispatch can be inferred? 2016-12-06T02:30:23Z brfennpocock joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:36:04Z p_l: fiddlerwoaroof: you might be interested in the inlined generic function package 2016-12-06T02:36:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, you wouldn't make your classes implement the runtime logic they'd implement a code generator for the runtime logic. 2016-12-06T02:36:44Z p_l: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function 2016-12-06T02:38:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: p_l: I've seen that, it's slightly different from what I'm thinking of, but it has similar advantages and is probably less complex to use and debug. 2016-12-06T02:39:33Z moore33 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T02:40:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another use for my strategy would be to define a new programming language that can be used inline in lisp for specific use cases: i.e. an embeddable language with Hindley-Milner type inference or a prolog/forth for doing things that those languages are good at. 2016-12-06T02:42:45Z gko_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T02:45:01Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:45:57Z gko joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:54:55Z dcluna quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-705-2e6c8d9 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T02:55:59Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-06T02:57:27Z antonv: why not deploy ASDF-3 as a quicklisp system so that everyone is able to do (ql:quickload :asdf3) 2016-12-06T03:00:13Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: You mean like screamer and gambol? 2016-12-06T03:00:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Probably? Do they use CLOS to help structure the code generator? 2016-12-06T03:00:59Z Einwq joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:01:31Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know. I don't think gambol does, but you can steal a lot from both of them. 2016-12-06T03:01:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm more interested in the statically typed one because I want to learn about type inference 2016-12-06T03:02:11Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh, ok. 2016-12-06T03:02:32Z warweasle quit (Quit: night) 2016-12-06T03:02:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, thanks for pointing out those projects, Prolog has always been a fascinating, if impractical, language. 2016-12-06T03:02:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: (to me, at least) 2016-12-06T03:03:29Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:03:42Z _leb joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:03:50Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:05:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:05:54Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:07:41Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-06T03:10:00Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:10:46Z _leb quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-12-06T03:13:34Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-06T03:13:50Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:13:56Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:15:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:15:44Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-12-06T03:15:58Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:16:15Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-12-06T03:17:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:17:54Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:17:56Z moei joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:19:44Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:21:10Z dmiles: i've been working on extending PRolog with Lisp datatypes 2016-12-06T03:21:48Z dmiles: to be fast though i have to use a C version of prolog 2016-12-06T03:21:59Z dmiles: which i wish wasnt the case 2016-12-06T03:23:11Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:24:38Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:24:40Z Zhivago: Are none of the lisp implementations of prolog sufficient? 2016-12-06T03:25:01Z Cra2yZer0 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:25:57Z dmiles: some might be faster.. but 5x seems to be about the difference 2016-12-06T03:26:17Z dmiles: i have processes that take 4 seconds... so 20 seoncs is jsut too long 2016-12-06T03:26:59Z dmiles: i found a thread on this issue on comp.lang.lisp i think 2016-12-06T03:27:13Z dmiles: it might be that somone just needs to write the prolgo correctly 2016-12-06T03:28:19Z Zhivago: Did you try running them under SBCL? 2016-12-06T03:28:45Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:29:37Z dmiles: hrrm i better try that .. i trued in under Cyc's lisp and under clisp and gawd cant remmber the real lisp i used.. but wasnt sbcl 2016-12-06T03:30:04Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:30:36Z dmiles: it was perhaps allegro .. becasue i remember having to fart with editions that had membory limits 2016-12-06T03:31:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:32:50Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T03:35:58Z Zhivago: Ok. I'd expect clisp to be slow. 2016-12-06T03:37:07Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-06T03:37:25Z dmiles: hard also to say on cyc becasue at that time i wasnt compiling it 2016-12-06T03:38:14Z dmiles: compiled c-cyc is faster than allegro-cyc.. whats wild is jvm-cyc is faster than the other two 2016-12-06T03:38:24Z albertoefg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T03:39:16Z dmiles: i'd love to see sbcl-cyc but dont have access to the src 2016-12-06T03:40:19Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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SICL/Cleavir, Second Climacs, LispOS, etc, etc, etc. 2016-12-06T06:16:35Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:16:38Z django_: beach, i need an idea for software to work on lol 2016-12-06T06:16:44Z django_: possibly a web app 2016-12-06T06:16:51Z beach: Oh, that's an easy one. Hold on... 2016-12-06T06:17:06Z beach: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html 2016-12-06T06:17:13Z django_: hah 2016-12-06T06:17:31Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:17:38Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-06T06:18:18Z dmiles: how about a replacement for a SQL server? 2016-12-06T06:18:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe Common lisp bindings for Datomic? 2016-12-06T06:18:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.datomic.com/ 2016-12-06T06:19:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a bit annoying that it isn't open source, but Clojure people seem to love it. 2016-12-06T06:19:25Z beach: dmiles: I was told the other day that the world finally caught up with my ideas of a few decades ago, namely that relational databases are disappearing. 2016-12-06T06:19:36Z dmiles: one that will let you uninstall Oracle or Postrgreqsl server.. but still use their client drivers 2016-12-06T06:19:43Z mnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T06:20:27Z beach: django_: The difference between my suggested projects and many others, is that I want it to be pure Common Lisp, as opposed to involving bindings to code written in lesser programming languages. 2016-12-06T06:20:42Z Arathnim: beach: Ah, you keep a list of potential CL projects too? My org file is nearing 400 lines. 2016-12-06T06:20:43Z django_: ah 2016-12-06T06:20:56Z dmiles: beach: is it the relational part people are starting to realize inst helpfull becasue its too square? 2016-12-06T06:21:26Z beach: dmiles: Something like that I suppose, yes. 2016-12-06T06:22:30Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:22:38Z beach: Arathnim: Maybe you should show it to django_ and other #lisp participants? 2016-12-06T06:22:44Z alpert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T06:22:53Z dmiles: i worked on a MSSQL database at microsft that all automated hardware testing collequed into about 9,000 tables 2016-12-06T06:22:56Z alpert joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:23:15Z django_: so i have this idea of a brain dump web app 2016-12-06T06:23:34Z Arathnim: I like the idea of an actual CL reference manual, from your list, clhs isn't structured very well, and isn't really a reference at all. 2016-12-06T06:23:36Z django_: essentially you would write out everything about you 2016-12-06T06:24:25Z dmiles: it was that many so no over squarness of any one table screwed with the test programmer's abilty to store results 2016-12-06T06:24:35Z beach: Arathnim: Maybe that is being worked on, actually. 2016-12-06T06:24:57Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T06:25:12Z beach: Arathnim: Check with phoe. I think he knows more than I do. 2016-12-06T06:25:54Z dmiles: anyhow those 9000 table could be replaced by 2 :) 2016-12-06T06:26:24Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T06:27:39Z dmiles: i heard that someone projected the tables interdepency design into a solariam light show that rotated one year.. that devs were expected to sleep under it 2016-12-06T06:27:46Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:28:56Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:29:13Z shka joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:29:43Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:30:46Z leb quit 2016-12-06T06:31:08Z beach: django_: It seems you already had a good idea of an application to work on. 2016-12-06T06:31:18Z django_: lol im skeptical 2016-12-06T06:31:47Z django_: so do you make web apps in lisp beach ? 2016-12-06T06:32:04Z beach: No, I don't. 2016-12-06T06:32:25Z dmiles: fiddlerwoaroof: is datomic that good.. the website make isseem like it solves all my problems 2016-12-06T06:32:37Z beach: django_: But many other people here do. 2016-12-06T06:33:11Z dmiles: i want web-emacs picked back up and supported.. i'd also like it to run for any lisp 2016-12-06T06:33:28Z dmiles: from lisp as lisp bein gthe websever 2016-12-06T06:33:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: dmiles: I've never actually used it, but if you listen to clojure people, it solves every problem you might have :) 2016-12-06T06:34:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm a bit hesitant to adopt something non-opensource for something as central as a database 2016-12-06T06:34:31Z dmiles: hah its not opensrc.. gawd 2016-12-06T06:36:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:36:22Z dmiles: ok.. what it looks like is a middle federator 2016-12-06T06:36:26Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:37:13Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T06:37:17Z dmiles: gives you updatable views however you feel the tables should be 2016-12-06T06:37:21Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-06T06:38:27Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:38:41Z dmiles: for instance those 9000 tables i griped about would be insertable 9000 views of the 2 tables 2016-12-06T06:39:10Z dmiles: 9000 legal places to insert to 2016-12-06T06:40:48Z dmiles: i know a project.. an ISO-PRolgo impl in lisp that is fast as SWI-Prolog 2016-12-06T06:41:01Z dmiles: (or faster) 2016-12-06T06:43:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: link? 2016-12-06T06:44:13Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T06:44:16Z dmiles: http://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/doc_for?object=manual 2016-12-06T06:44:47Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T06:44:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nevermind, I just realized that you wanted someone to implement a prolog as fast as swi-prolog 2016-12-06T06:45:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I thought you were saying you new of a fast prolog 2016-12-06T06:45:34Z dmiles: oh that fast .. but not as fast as B-Prolog, Sicstus or YAP 2016-12-06T06:46:28Z dmiles: i picked out SWI because its a low enough bar to reach :( 2016-12-06T06:46:38Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:47:35Z ak5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T06:47:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suppose all three of those are proprietary? 2016-12-06T06:48:03Z dmiles: only Sicstus is propritary 2016-12-06T06:48:08Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:48:44Z dmiles: i found the source to B-Prolog i have not tested to see how fast it was but just heard 2016-12-06T06:49:17Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T06:50:55Z dmiles: fiddlerwoaroof: what do you need prolog for? 2016-12-06T06:50:59Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-06T06:52:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: No particular reason, as I said before I've generally found it fascinating 2016-12-06T06:52:33Z dmiles uses prolog for everything, is making a application framework in it 2016-12-06T06:53:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, my most recent achievment was figuring out how to solve the zebra puzzle in prolog 2016-12-06T06:53:07Z dmiles: basically what CYC was supposed ot be a very smart Lisp OS 2016-12-06T06:53:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I did most of it on my own, although I peeked a bit at PAIP's solution :) 2016-12-06T06:53:41Z dmiles: very smart in that all lisp code is supposed to be documented in FOL so new programs could ber synthesized or at least used "as kneeded" 2016-12-06T06:54:15Z dmiles: erm that lisp libraries could be swapped in/out depending on their real usecases 2016-12-06T06:55:06Z dmiles: OS is sort of a heavy term for a Blackboard.. but a Blackboard may was well be an OS 2016-12-06T06:56:06Z dmiles: Why i conflate that into an OS .. is that Bleackboard is an Applications Sever 2016-12-06T06:56:49Z dmiles: Why i conflate that into an OS .. is that Blackboard is an Applications Server (sometimes better to resend than to send s//g) 2016-12-06T06:57:30Z dmiles: CYC is PAIP in steroids 2016-12-06T06:58:48Z Zhivago: What is CYC's internal representation -- is it a triplestore? 2016-12-06T06:58:49Z dmiles: as in CYC uses unification to construct whatever data is needed 2016-12-06T06:59:02Z brfennpocock: FWIW, Comparison to Datomic, we implemented a simple SPARQL to SQL translator and found PostModern did quite well at doing almost what Datomic does, but open source and not simple-writer-threaded. 2016-12-06T06:59:26Z brfennpocock: Well (Datomic/SparQL/Prolog/type unification-thingie) 2016-12-06T07:00:17Z brfennpocock: ^s/simple-/single-/ 2016-12-06T07:00:18Z dmiles: naw Z, its actually just Conses containing lots of atomic hashmaps pointing at each others Conses 2016-12-06T07:00:22Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:01:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:02:54Z dmiles: atomic hashmaps = (knows Fido (likes (Occupant (NextDoor (HouseOf Fido ))) .. "Fido knows the next door neigbor likes him 2016-12-06T07:03:26Z dmiles: thats 6 hashamps and 5 conslists 2016-12-06T07:03:30Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T07:04:05Z dmiles: hashmap named 'Fido' points at the location it is at 2016-12-06T07:05:12Z Oladon joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:05:20Z dmiles: key being the type of meaning in the conses... fist cons is that it is the subject the last cons it is the modifier of HouseOf 2016-12-06T07:05:44Z dmiles: tripple stores this would be huge pain to represent 2016-12-06T07:05:58Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:06:17Z dmiles: oops i meant (knows Fido (likes (Occupant (NextDoor (HouseOf Fido )) Fido) 2016-12-06T07:06:38Z dmiles: that correction that stil left it at 6 and 5 2016-12-06T07:06:50Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:08:15Z dmiles: a predicate like knows/2 there has a map of query mo0des that mapped to a already ready iterator 2016-12-06T07:08:18Z beach: django_: Anyway, good luck with your web application. 2016-12-06T07:08:43Z django_: hah thanks 2016-12-06T07:09:25Z beach: django_: If you ever get rich from it, consider contributing to projects involving more Common Lisp infrastructure. 2016-12-06T07:09:59Z dmiles: (gethash '(#$Fido ?W) #$knows ) ===> # 2016-12-06T07:10:59Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T07:11:33Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:11:42Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T07:12:46Z django_: beach, im a python person :/ 2016-12-06T07:12:47Z django_: lol 2016-12-06T07:12:56Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T07:13:01Z Kaisyu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T07:14:01Z brfennpocock: triples store version not terribly hard to present? [knows Fido '[likes ?n Fido]] [occupies ?n ?hn] [occupies Fido ?hf] [next-door ?hn ?hf] 2016-12-06T07:14:47Z edgar-rft: django_: you're a CMUCL user? 2016-12-06T07:15:36Z dmiles: brfennpocock: my gripe is all the bnodes you'd create 2016-12-06T07:15:42Z django_: edgar-rft, no idea what that is 2016-12-06T07:15:46Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:15:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: CMU commmon lisp 2016-12-06T07:16:05Z dmiles: brfennpocock: like ?hn itself 2016-12-06T07:16:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: A predecessor of SBCL that is still actively developed. 2016-12-06T07:16:25Z dmiles: brfennpocock: though i know you are showing a query and not an assertion 2016-12-06T07:16:39Z Zhivago: dmiles: Seems compatible with a triple-store -- is there a reason you don't represent it that way? 2016-12-06T07:17:54Z dmiles: when you store cyc in RIF (rule interchange format) its spends 90% of CPU time in tripllfying it 2016-12-06T07:18:12Z dmiles: in un-triplifying it 2016-12-06T07:18:37Z dmiles: reconstructing the non tripled version 2016-12-06T07:19:16Z dmiles: since 1 arity 5 predicate takes 7 tipples to store it 2016-12-06T07:20:01Z dmiles gets an exmaple of an arity 5 pred 2016-12-06T07:20:29Z brfennpocock: No, that's just a notation for the assertion to avoid #1# :-) 2016-12-06T07:20:51Z dmiles: sorry 5s are hearder to find.. .. lets use arity 4... (TypeCapableFn behaviorCapable) TransnationalCriminalOrganization IllegalDrugActivity directingAgent) 2016-12-06T07:21:07Z dmiles: oops forget a paren ( (TypeCapableFn behaviorCapable) TransnationalCriminalOrganization IllegalDrugActivity directingAgent) 2016-12-06T07:21:54Z dmiles: that would take at least 6 triples to store instead of one cons or vecotr 2016-12-06T07:22:19Z edgar-rft: django_: Python is the compiler of CMUCL (= Carnegie Mellon University Common Lisp) 2016-12-06T07:22:57Z brfennpocock: I literally have [subj pred obj corpus temporal] in an (array (5 *)) and a hashtable to map the array indices to DB *shrug* but that's just game robots, not hardcore stuff :-) 2016-12-06T07:23:36Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:24:18Z brfennpocock: (But then stringification is stored separately so that's just packed full of fixnums) 2016-12-06T07:24:28Z radioninja_work quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:25:01Z Karunamon|2 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:25:10Z Karunamon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:25:18Z dmiles: {assertion666 pred pred666} {pred666 arity 1} {pred666 functor TypeCapableFn} {pred666 arg1 behaviorCapable} {assertion666 arg1 TransnationalCriminalOrganization} {assertion666 arg2 IllegalDrugActivity } {assertion666 arg3 directingAgent} 2016-12-06T07:25:50Z dmiles: is a triplfied version 2016-12-06T07:25:54Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:26:19Z tiago quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:26:35Z dmiles: brfennpocock>: you have an atom table :P 2016-12-06T07:27:17Z radioninja_work joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:27:26Z dmiles: now that i created those triples.. i'd need to index more structures 2016-12-06T07:27:45Z vicfred quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:28:14Z dmiles: i also have to do more re-refeing of the data to reconstuct the "meaning" 2016-12-06T07:28:41Z brfennpocock: I have a triples table of atoms-by-reference, a sparse table of global-atom-ID to local-ID, and a much sparser pair of tables of atom to string-presentation-forms (one for subj/obj, one for pred) 2016-12-06T07:29:50Z brfennpocock: Where “triples” are 5-tuples but the last 2 are housekeeping-type values (in what corpora is the fact “interned,” and what level of ephemeral/permanance is it given) 2016-12-06T07:30:00Z dmiles: also cyc has something called microtheories which turns this to a quadstore (still not a problem though) 2016-12-06T07:30:02Z Zhivago: Generally I would expect topical coalescence to help a lot, where the topic includes select substructure. 2016-12-06T07:30:03Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-06T07:30:05Z tiago joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:30:05Z tiago quit (Changing host) 2016-12-06T07:30:05Z tiago joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:30:13Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:30:28Z dmiles: yeah the last two as you siad is the context.. the "mircotheory" 2016-12-06T07:31:09Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:31:22Z dmiles: corpora is the fact “interned = in CYC is the context its from 2016-12-06T07:31:38Z dmiles: ephemeral/permanance = ephemeral/permanance (was it deduced or given) 2016-12-06T07:31:43Z brfennpocock: I don't see how a 5-tuple assertion → 7 triples though, should that be only at most 3 I would think. 2016-12-06T07:31:43Z vicfred quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-06T07:32:38Z dmiles: if it can be 3, i'd like to see 2016-12-06T07:33:58Z dmiles: Zhivago, you belive that and so do some really smarter people than me.. if we could get that 90% of the CPU to 0% then i ma all for it 2016-12-06T07:34:42Z dmiles: (i am not saying your incorrect.. i am saying you more likely are correct) 2016-12-06T07:34:48Z brfennpocock: I'm using Corpus analogous to CL Package; where certain robots have access to different areas of “common” knowledge and have private stores as well, and the 5th value is really something like, dynamic-extent-ness for persistence to DB / GC / chaos monkey 2016-12-06T07:34:53Z dmiles quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2016-12-06T07:35:00Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:35:25Z Zhivago: dmiles: I have the benefit of knowing that I am correct, but that doesn't really help you. 2016-12-06T07:35:26Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:35:42Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:36:04Z Zhivago: There's a lot of work that goes into getting everything through to that point. 2016-12-06T07:36:20Z Zhivago: So it's probably not feasible for you to pursue -- I was just curious. 2016-12-06T07:38:36Z brfennpocock: I'm not sure I follow the assertion you'd written, but I think what you stated was akin to (directingagent #1=transnationalcriminalorganization (behaviourcapable #1# illegaldrugactivity)) … not sure what a typecapablefn would mean though :-/ 2016-12-06T07:40:07Z brfennpocock: I merely teach cartoon elephants to sound like amusing idiots as an hobby, I am far far behind on my reading on all the fancier ways to get to the same place ☺ 2016-12-06T07:40:19Z brfennpocock: But it's quite late here and I must /part 2016-12-06T07:40:24Z fiddlerwoaroof just wrote yet another unit test framework :) 2016-12-06T07:40:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although it's not quite a framework 2016-12-06T07:40:40Z Zhivago: fiddler: Did you write unit tests for it? 2016-12-06T07:40:50Z jackdaniel: yay, lets celebrate 2016-12-06T07:40:53Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:41:05Z jackdaniel: do we have magic 42 of them already? :) 2016-12-06T07:41:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, it's too trivial to need tests: it's more of a couple macros and a wrapper around format 2016-12-06T07:42:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+7599 2016-12-06T07:44:45Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:45:16Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:48:54Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:49:42Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:53:56Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T07:54:09Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T07:55:25Z brfennpocock quit (Quit: OMG it's 0300 local) 2016-12-06T07:56:16Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:57:22Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:58:14Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:58:14Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T07:58:46Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:04:26Z alpert quit 2016-12-06T08:04:26Z brh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T08:08:15Z Cra2yZer0 quit 2016-12-06T08:16:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:17:42Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:18:09Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:21:44Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:22:00Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:26:07Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:27:19Z przl joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:27:43Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-06T08:27:51Z przl joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:29:34Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-06T08:35:53Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:36:24Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T08:36:53Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:47:48Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:48:19Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-06T08:49:05Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T08:49:39Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-12-06T08:52:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-12-06T08:53:06Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:00:16Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:05:32Z kini joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:06:11Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:07:42Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:09:00Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:12:24Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:12:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:14:20Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:23:12Z impaktor: Running (gsl:examples 'GSLL::NONLINEAR-LEAST-SQUARES) 2016-12-06T09:23:16Z impaktor: I get ((GSLL::NONLINEAR-LEAST-SQUARES-EXAMPLE 40 GSLL:+LEVENBERG-MARQUARDT+ NIL)) 2016-12-06T09:23:23Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:23:39Z impaktor: Not sure what to do with that. If I eval it, I get a 3 element list. 2016-12-06T09:24:34Z impaktor: I don't understand what the data they pass into it is, nor what the function to minimize is. And how it is even an example to begin with? 2016-12-06T09:25:34Z impaktor: - So the question I'm asking: How do I find out how to use (nonlinear) least squares in GSLL? 2016-12-06T09:27:05Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:28:06Z django_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:28:50Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:31:30Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:34:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:35:58Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:39:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:39:24Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:39:44Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:43:10Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T09:46:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:46:34Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:48:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:50:04Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:50:06Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:50:25Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:51:50Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:52:29Z quasisane quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-06T09:52:53Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:56:03Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T09:56:18Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T09:56:40Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:57:09Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T09:59:08Z HeyFlash- joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:00:34Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T10:01:19Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-06T10:01:55Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T10:03:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-06T10:08:00Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:10:09Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:10:23Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:10:32Z Spelndid joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:10:47Z MolluskEmpire quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-12-06T10:12:05Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:13:05Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-06T10:14:18Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:15:28Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T10:16:59Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:18:20Z malice` joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:19:52Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:21:56Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:23:21Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T10:24:10Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:26:07Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:26:09Z MolluskEmpire quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-12-06T10:26:16Z z3r0_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-12-06T10:26:43Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:28:36Z z3r0_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-06T10:29:41Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:31:26Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T10:31:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:36:48Z impaktor quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T10:39:08Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:39:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:39:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-12-06T10:39:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:43:45Z impaktor joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:44:54Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:45:17Z z3r0_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-12-06T10:45:48Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:45:56Z django_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:46:11Z younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T10:50:54Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T10:51:00Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-06T10:53:05Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-06T10:54:21Z younder joined #lisp 2016-12-06T10:55:54Z MolluskEmpire quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T10:57:05Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-06T10:59:31Z younder quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-12-06T11:02:20Z papachan_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:03:03Z younder joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:04:24Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T11:08:51Z vhost- joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:09:01Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:15:37Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T11:16:04Z z3r0_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-06T11:16:29Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:20:07Z clog joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:22:24Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:25:08Z bdr3552 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:32:52Z Tex_Nick quit (Quit: In Linux, We Trust) 2016-12-06T11:34:38Z ovenpasta quit (Quit: ovenpasta) 2016-12-06T11:38:32Z django_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T11:38:57Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:40:30Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:43:10Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T11:48:22Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:48:46Z jmignault joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:49:49Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:50:52Z justinabrahms_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T11:52:14Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-06T11:52:32Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-06T11:52:48Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-06T11:55:03Z jmignault quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T11:55:09Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-06T11:55:54Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T11:57:31Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:00:31Z justinabrahms joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:00:42Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:06:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T12:08:37Z jmignault joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:11:51Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:12:23Z dmiles: got klined Zhivago, sorry to disappear 2016-12-06T12:13:01Z Spelndid quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-06T12:13:06Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T12:14:23Z dmiles: I think the main issue would be sentences that use logical variables would need to be convert back to Horn clauses to re-unite the variables so they could be get bound to values. like (implies (marriedWithChild ?X ?Y) (thereExistsALeast 1 ?Child (and (parentOf ?X ?Child) (parentOf ?Y ?Child)))) 2016-12-06T12:15:40Z dmiles: this example predicates are arity 2 however just not easy because fact like ?X and ?Y would need to be Blank Nodes. 2016-12-06T12:16:12Z dmiles: Oh, and we'd need to know which triples are part of the Antecedent and which triples are part of the Consequent. 2016-12-06T12:16:31Z dmiles: If this information is tracked well enough, we could reconstruct the original logic program to run in order to make it possible to use them in CYC. 2016-12-06T12:16:59Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T12:17:40Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:18:17Z dmiles: Where i was working (Teknowledge) my job was to convert these representations back and forth to changing the existing software when DAML/Semweb became part of our funding source. 2016-12-06T12:19:50Z dmiles: It wasn't the fact that I had to cache the reconstructed representations that was the problem, It was forcing field agent agents that wished to write our logic in RDF had to do the same conversions the software did.. But in their heads. 2016-12-06T12:20:28Z dmiles: Afterwards. i spent a few years working for a robotic company. What was crazy is my "works the first time rate" in S-expression (if (and (a ?x) (b ?x) (c ?x ?y) (play (d ?y ?x))) was 50% whereas i writing robot behavior in Turtle/N3 (converts to RDF). that same logic was 0%. Worse i was the one whom created the animation system (to the specs they gave) 2016-12-06T12:21:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:21:02Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T12:22:03Z dmiles: s training customers whom already struggle with writing behaviour trees for to write the same programs using only triples. And remember variable names they created between sentences/ Some customers accused us of making it so hard to do simple things.. they'd probably never get the the advanced topics the software was supposed to be able to do. 2016-12-06T12:22:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:22:54Z dmiles: If we could hide the concepts of triple stores from me and let continue to write logic programs in CycL, i am game. We would of at the robotics company. but big money wanted me to make it look like the semantic web everyone read about. Tool authors wanted the RDF to be human understandable.. So the best minds found a way to convince everyone it was. 2016-12-06T12:23:07Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:23:28Z dmiles: There is an amazing article from the JSON-LD creator whom explains what i am saying much better than I did http://manu.sporny.org/2014/json-ld-origins-2/ 2016-12-06T12:24:22Z dmiles: Think of a logic programming community who was spoiled for decades using tools like ONTOLINGUA, SNARK, CYC, LOOM. Going to RDF and even Turtle or OWL feels like we are back to writing algorithms on punch cards again. 2016-12-06T12:25:53Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T12:27:03Z dmiles: trying to rewrite LOOM, KM, or NSARK where the lisp programmers can uses conses anymore might not speed it up 2016-12-06T12:27:17Z dmiles: SNARK* 2016-12-06T12:27:28Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:27:40Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T12:27:41Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:28:22Z rashmirathi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T12:30:43Z dmiles: also RDF logic is not complete enough to be used by ONTOLINGUA, SNARK, LOOM, PTTP, CYC or typical higher order theorem provers 2016-12-06T12:30:44Z bdr3552 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T12:30:55Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T12:32:00Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:32:01Z dmiles: This was purposefull becasue RDF wanted to require theorem provers to be used 2016-12-06T12:32:04Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T12:32:12Z dmiles: did not want to require* 2016-12-06T12:33:48Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:34:39Z dmiles: interesting fact RDF was developed based on work by Ramanathan V. Guha, and was originally used in Netscape Navigator 4.5's Smart Browsing ("What's related?") feature, and by Open Directory. RDF followed from work Guha had done on the Cyc project. 2016-12-06T12:35:10Z dcluna joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:35:46Z dmiles: All the rules and higher order logic had to be stripped out of OpenCyc KB so we could convert it to RDF 2016-12-06T12:35:48Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T12:36:31Z dmiles: The public still considered it a devine contribution.. I was fired over it 2016-12-06T12:36:49Z dmiles: (why it is so interesting to me) 2016-12-06T12:38:57Z dmiles: I actually blame the Semantic web for crippling our software to the point of unusability. 2016-12-06T12:38:58Z Bhanu joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:39:07Z Bhanu left #lisp 2016-12-06T12:39:28Z cookienator joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:40:04Z russellw: You were fired over it? That sounds like someone in authority was being pretty cranky; how did it happen? 2016-12-06T12:40:57Z dmiles: I was told when OpenCYC was released if i didnt have my software compiant to the new standard.. I would be let go 2016-12-06T12:41:35Z dmiles: it was fine i got unemployemnt and then cycorp paid for training a few months later 2016-12-06T12:42:02Z russellw: ah, this was the part where they were demanding everything be RDF, and your stuff wasn't because RDF wasn't up to the job? 2016-12-06T12:42:11Z dmiles: it was they didnt understand the deadlock of trying to create smanticly viable rdf rules 2016-12-06T12:42:27Z dmiles: correct 2016-12-06T12:42:54Z dmiles: even 10 years later i dealt with the same issues at another Semweb job 2016-12-06T12:43:26Z dmiles: (the programming of Social Robots in RDF) 2016-12-06T12:43:57Z russellw: I can sympathise, having looked into some of the graph-related stuff developed for the semantic Web, and found it doesn't really seem to do anything very interesting 2016-12-06T12:44:45Z russellw: Not interesting as in, the fragment of prolog you get from a half hour tutorial, is a lot more interesting 2016-12-06T12:44:45Z dmiles: SEmweb has finanly accepted JSON-LD this means all the AI programs over the last DEcade can work 2016-12-06T12:45:03Z Xach: Let us chat of lisp 2016-12-06T12:45:34Z dmiles: getting there.. JSON-LD is basicaly doable as S-Expressions 2016-12-06T12:45:49Z russellw: Well that's hopefully promising 2016-12-06T12:45:53Z dmiles: also we can ebed lisp code as RDF lists 2016-12-06T12:46:13Z dmiles: (it just seemed wrong .. people gripe when you do that) 2016-12-06T12:46:40Z p_l quit 2016-12-06T12:46:46Z dmiles: JSON-LD you convert to the (s to { .. and everyone is happy again 2016-12-06T12:47:32Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:48:37Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:49:49Z rashmirathi joined #lisp 2016-12-06T12:50:53Z dmiles: 2014 "JSON-LD became an official Web Standard last week. This is after exactly 100 teleconferences typically lasting an hour and a half, fully transparent with text minutes and recorded audio for every call. There were 218+ issues addressed, 2,000+ source code commits, and 3,102+ emails " - all the guy did was justify what had been created 2016-12-06T12:54:48Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T12:59:28Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:00:08Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T13:01:18Z younder: dmiles, That is why 'real' web developers cgreated WHATWG 2016-12-06T13:01:43Z younder: https://whatwg.org/ 2016-12-06T13:01:45Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:03:25Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:04:54Z younder: Well actually it happened about 2002 when W3C started working on XHTML 2.0. The web developers felt this was not in their customers interest and Opera, Netscape et al made a separate work force. 2016-12-06T13:05:20Z dmiles: wow, interesting 2016-12-06T13:06:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T13:08:22Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:08:32Z john-mcaleely_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:08:44Z john-mcaleely_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T13:09:52Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T13:10:20Z dmiles: did w3c spend 10 yearts trying to get xhtml2 adopted and finally gave up 2016-12-06T13:11:24Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:14:00Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:14:50Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T13:14:56Z jmignault quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T13:15:19Z younder: Not exactly, they saw HTML 5.0 take shape and chose to incorporate it into their strategy. There is still a difference between WHATWG HTML 5 and W3C HTML 5. 2016-12-06T13:16:45Z younder: HTML 5 is more of a rolling release. It is ment to be final. Some components are added, some are upgraded, but there should be no HTML 6.0. 2016-12-06T13:17:17Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:17:32Z younder: At least that is my understanding of it. 2016-12-06T13:18:16Z Cymew: There's a lack of parenthesis in HTML 5. 2016-12-06T13:20:26Z younder: SGML is still way better than XML in cutting echoes and line noise. But yes, a Lispy syntax would have suited me too. 2016-12-06T13:21:09Z younder: Or JSON for that matter.. 2016-12-06T13:21:38Z psacrifice quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T13:21:58Z dmiles: :) 2016-12-06T13:23:00Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:30:34Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:30:41Z manuel__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T13:36:07Z younder: To get back to Lisp, I have taken a interest in the Clasp project of DrMeister. It is in a state of flux right now so I would wait to upload to they have a stable release. 2016-12-06T13:36:56Z texNick joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:37:47Z Tex_Nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T13:39:01Z texNick left #lisp 2016-12-06T13:39:25Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:39:37Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:41:53Z younder: From a personal point of view I am looking for a opportunity to incorporate NVIDIA's libraries for computer vision. Deep neural nets, OpenCV that sort of thing. 2016-12-06T13:42:20Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T13:42:24Z malice`: younder: can't you use ffi for that? 2016-12-06T13:43:09Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:43:12Z malice`: younder: https://github.com/melisgl/mgl https://github.com/takagi/cl-cuda 2016-12-06T13:43:16Z malice`: cuda is there 2016-12-06T13:43:47Z younder: Apparently there are problems with getting C++ libs to work witch Clasp solves. 2016-12-06T13:45:01Z younder: malice`, I might be trading one can of worms for another I guess. Let's see ;) 2016-12-06T13:45:44Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:47:57Z Cymew: younder: Clasp will probably be in a flux for some time, so don't hold your breath. 2016-12-06T13:48:12Z younder: I know. 2016-12-06T13:48:40Z younder: I am olso on the #clasp group. 2016-12-06T13:49:02Z Cymew: I wasn't aware there was one, but I'm not totally surprised. 2016-12-06T13:49:39Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:51:48Z giraffe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T13:53:17Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-12-06T13:53:35Z younder: malice`, I'll look into it. 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Common Lisp program have to have an entry function? 2016-12-06T16:04:17Z prole quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-06T16:04:31Z prole joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:05:52Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:06:21Z russellw- joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:06:48Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-06T16:07:11Z Xach: malice`: no 2016-12-06T16:07:20Z Xach: malice`: that is not a standard concept 2016-12-06T16:07:56Z malice`: thanks 2016-12-06T16:08:56Z russellw quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T16:09:55Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T16:12:42Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T16:14:11Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:15:00Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:16:59Z Xach: malice`: what prompts the question 2016-12-06T16:17:26Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:18:47Z froggey joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:18:58Z Xach: ? 2016-12-06T16:21:10Z malice`: Xach: I saw code-golf and wanted to write an illegal program that would print an error 2016-12-06T16:21:13Z malice`: for solution 2016-12-06T16:21:25Z malice`: but that was stupid for various reasons 2016-12-06T16:21:30Z malice`: e.g. the program wouldn't even compile 2016-12-06T16:21:33Z malice`: and I can load it as a script 2016-12-06T16:21:42Z malice`: but the program wouldn't include a function, so I was wondering 2016-12-06T16:22:58Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T16:24:06Z igam joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:25:15Z impaktor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T16:25:28Z impaktor` joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:25:39Z BusFactor1 quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-12-06T16:26:06Z ragepandemic joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:27:56Z warweasle quit (Quit: lunch) 2016-12-06T16:30:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:31:43Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T16:32:07Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-12-06T16:34:51Z impaktor` is now known as impaktor 2016-12-06T16:35:27Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-06T16:40:11Z 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(SBCL has it's kill-lisp-and die) 2016-12-06T18:37:07Z borodust: i don't think abcl is capable either 2016-12-06T18:37:09Z Xach: It is not part of the standard but is frequently implemented. 2016-12-06T18:37:24Z Xach: SBCL's is named save-lisp-and-die. 2016-12-06T18:37:43Z H4ns: it is pretty good that it is not part of the standard, because that makes ecl and abcl possible, as compliant implementations. 2016-12-06T18:39:01Z jackdaniel: (by ECL I mean also Clasp and mkcl forks, but GCL has dump-image, so it's certainly possible in Kyoto family) 2016-12-06T18:40:28Z younder: Xach, right you are. It gives funny annotations though. 2016-12-06T18:40:53Z wakulluk quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 45.3.0/20160802213348]) 2016-12-06T18:41:03Z nhandler joined #lisp 2016-12-06T18:41:07Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-06T18:41:56Z borodust: well, then mb I should just shoot main question then 2016-12-06T18:42:30Z borodust: right now, cffi loads sbcl w/o :dont-save flag being t 2016-12-06T18:42:30Z Xach: yes, always! 2016-12-06T18:42:58Z borodust: that means next time i load image sbcl will try to resolve and reopen library automatically 2016-12-06T18:43:45Z borodust: which is probably not what expected, because neither use-foreign-library nor load-foreign-library were not called 2016-12-06T18:44:19Z borodust: well, minus last not 2016-12-06T18:44:23Z easye confirms ABCL has no kill-lisp-and-die capability. "And it would be hard to see how to do one that would work across different JVM implementations." 2016-12-06T18:44:45Z Xach: kill-lisp-and-die seems somewhat easier than save-lisp-and-die 2016-12-06T18:45:07Z oleo: kill-java-and-save-lisp lol 2016-12-06T18:45:18Z easye: Xach: touche 2016-12-06T18:45:28Z borodust: so I'm wondering, should I create a patch for 'fix' that behavior or is that intended 2016-12-06T18:45:41Z borodust: and won't this break any dependent libs 2016-12-06T18:45:51Z borodust: *to fix 2016-12-06T18:45:59Z Xach: borodust: I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that, if you save an image with some foreign libraries loaded, you should not expect those libraries to be reloaded when the image is restarted? 2016-12-06T18:46:36Z borodust: Xach, well, I thought so 2016-12-06T18:46:55Z borodust: e.g. if image is restarted on the different machine 2016-12-06T18:47:12Z Xach: borodust: Ok. I think it makes sense to reload in some contexts. I don't know the design intention. 2016-12-06T18:49:07Z nrp3c joined #lisp 2016-12-06T18:49:33Z Xach: If I load a lisp library and save an image, I expect the library to keep working when I use the image, and not have to manage reloading foreign libraries. 2016-12-06T18:49:38Z Xach: I don't know if that expectation is justified. 2016-12-06T18:49:56Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-06T18:50:08Z lemonpie: if the library maintains state, it's not 2016-12-06T18:50:17Z borodust: Yeh, but then that means one should dump loaded foreign libs too 2016-12-06T18:50:34Z lemonpie: (foreign library, that is) 2016-12-06T18:50:40Z nrp3c quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T18:50:49Z nrp3c joined #lisp 2016-12-06T18:50:55Z nrp3c quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T18:51:17Z Xach: borodust: dump them how? 2016-12-06T18:51:17Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T18:51:29Z Xach: lemonpie: it is typical when saving an image to load what you wish, do nothing, and immediately save the image. 2016-12-06T18:51:38Z borodust: Xach, exactly 2016-12-06T18:51:50Z Xach: borodust: the bytes of the shared library file become bytes in the image file? 2016-12-06T18:52:09Z borodust: Xach, well, I don't know, but mb that 2016-12-06T18:52:19Z Xach: lemonpie: maybe some minimal state for configuration, but you would not do a lot of work and say "time to save!" and expect all the state to be coherent on restart. 2016-12-06T18:52:55Z lemonpie: unfortunately, i don't think you can safely make that assumption about .so or .sll files 2016-12-06T18:53:00Z borodust: well, i'm just saying no one gonna dump foreign libs anyway, so we cannot rely on them being correctly reloaded on image load 2016-12-06T18:54:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T18:54:20Z Xach: They are generally reloaded ok on the same machine. 2016-12-06T18:54:31Z borodust: cffi specifically has load-* and unload-* methods 2016-12-06T18:54:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-06T18:54:58Z borodust: problem is, most wrappers just use `use-foreign-library` toplevel 2016-12-06T18:55:18Z borodust: which autoloads all foreign code at loading time 2016-12-06T18:55:39Z borodust: Xach, yeah, problem arises when I want to distribute my code 2016-12-06T18:56:05Z Xach: borodust: You have a binary that uses foreign libraries and they are not reliably reloaded on other systems? 2016-12-06T18:56:29Z borodust: Xach, yes, because libraries can be missing 2016-12-06T18:56:53Z Xach: borodust: that seems like a tricky problem. are there exemplary solutions in other programming environments? 2016-12-06T18:57:06Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T18:57:20Z borodust: other environments don't dump images 2016-12-06T18:57:30Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-12-06T18:57:48Z Xach: borodust: well, they do produce binary files that must work with the linker to find shared libraries... 2016-12-06T18:58:01Z borodust: yes, but then no state is saved 2016-12-06T18:58:26Z borodust: actually, there's no state other than initial in those binaries 2016-12-06T18:58:49Z Xach: How does the absence of state help with the absence of a shared library on a target system? 2016-12-06T18:58:51Z borodust: so basically, u load libs every time on startup (or whatever time) 2016-12-06T18:58:53Z jackdaniel: borodust: did you consider using cl-store for serialization of the state? 2016-12-06T18:59:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T18:59:28Z jackdaniel: then you can bring it back in a "clean" image with newly loaded libraries 2016-12-06T18:59:29Z borodust: jackdaniel: i'm having problems with distributing foreign code with my lisp image atm, not saving state) 2016-12-06T19:00:08Z nhandler quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-06T19:00:29Z jackdaniel: in ECL case you may include static libraries inside your created image 2016-12-06T19:01:05Z nhandler joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:01:08Z jackdaniel: you may also include shared libraries of course, but if they depend on something else, then you'll have to ship it too 2016-12-06T19:01:18Z borodust: Actually, I think I just realized how can i fix my problem 2016-12-06T19:01:38Z borodust: mb i should just unload whatever was registered before image dump 2016-12-06T19:01:54Z borodust: hopefully this will work 2016-12-06T19:02:49Z borodust: *before dumping an image 2016-12-06T19:03:57Z borodust: jackdaniel: we discussed static linking problem earlier 2016-12-06T19:04:18Z borodust: this won't work for lgpl libs 2016-12-06T19:04:39Z nhandler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T19:05:12Z Xach: What does your app do? 2016-12-06T19:05:25Z borodust: but ecl doesn't have problem with dumping traces of foreign libraries with image, because it doesn't dump images, which is actually fine 2016-12-06T19:05:31Z jackdaniel: actually when static-library is bundled as FAS in ECL, it's linked dynamically and you can bundle shared objects too as I have already mentioned 2016-12-06T19:05:33Z borodust: Xach, it is a game 2016-12-06T19:05:44Z jackdaniel: OK, I'm going back to testing :) 2016-12-06T19:05:57Z whartung: no, to paraphrase a modern credit card campaign, let me posit "What's in your image?" 2016-12-06T19:06:20Z whartung: (I don't have an image, so I have nothing to contribute) 2016-12-06T19:08:37Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T19:09:09Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:09:38Z funnel quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-06T19:10:33Z phoe: whartung: quicklisp and slime 2016-12-06T19:11:04Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:11:22Z nhandler joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:11:38Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:11:40Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T19:11:54Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:12:16Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:12:21Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:13:00Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:15:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:16:36Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:17:31Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:20:46Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T19:23:59Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:25:08Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-12-06T19:26:02Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:27:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: whartung: A very sad man. He's looking for something. 2016-12-06T19:27:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh wait, not lispcafe. Can't be useless. 2016-12-06T19:29:32Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:29:55Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:29:55Z klltkr quit (Changing host) 2016-12-06T19:29:55Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:32:20Z robotoad_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:33:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:33:22Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:33:57Z housel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:34:02Z trn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T19:34:15Z Marsjan joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:34:18Z housel joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:34:19Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T19:34:40Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-487-cbf5c38 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T19:35:01Z radioninja_work quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:35:01Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:35:01Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:35:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:35:12Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:35:25Z radioninja_work joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:35:32Z Marsjan is now known as marsjaninzmarsa 2016-12-06T19:36:22Z ft joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:41:17Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:42:17Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:44:12Z trn joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:44:27Z ragepandemic joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:45:59Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:46:43Z fiveop joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:46:45Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:47:54Z fiveop: I have a global value *FOO* that is a list of lists. Each entry represents to arguments to two macros. How do I apply those two macros to the elements of the list? 2016-12-06T19:49:10Z eMBee joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:50:02Z fiveop: e.g. Instead of (macrolet ((bar (a b) `(defun ,a (,b) ...))) (bar c d) (bar e f)) (macrolet ((baz (...))) (baz c d) (baz e f)) I want to write something starting with (defparameter *FOO* '((a b) (c d))) ... 2016-12-06T19:50:42Z fiveop: *FOO* should be '((c d) (e f)) in the example 2016-12-06T19:53:03Z fiveop: I write a macro that takes the list *FOO* and produces a PROGN of the DEFUNs. 2016-12-06T19:53:24Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-06T19:54:23Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:54:30Z Xach: fiveop: When I find myself in that situation, I often do (macrolet ((do-defuns (...) ...)) (do-defuns (a b) (c d) (e f) ...))))))) 2016-12-06T19:57:53Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-06T19:59:04Z fiveop: I just have two definition sites in different files and I don't want to duplicate the list (a b) (c d) ... 2016-12-06T19:59:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-06T19:59:26Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-06T19:59:46Z fiveop: (macrolet ((do-defuns (...) ...)) (do-defuns #.*foo*)) works however, since *foo* is in a third file that is read first. 2016-12-06T20:01:22Z younder: do-defuns? 2016-12-06T20:01:39Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:01:54Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T20:02:55Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:03:23Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-06T20:03:24Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-12-06T20:03:54Z younder: do-defuns and thena read macro. It just seems oblique 2016-12-06T20:05:00Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-06T20:05:37Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T20:05:38Z fiveop: And does not work. If the (macrolet) file needs recompilation, while the *FOO* file does not, +%hook+ is not available during compilation of the (macrolet) file. 2016-12-06T20:05:51Z younder: Surely there is a more explicit way of announcing 'this' should run before 'that' 2016-12-06T20:06:00Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:10:57Z jasom: younder: you can use eval-when or have it in a file that is loaded first by asdf 2016-12-06T20:12:08Z jasom: younder: also I use +foo+ for variables that are semantically constants, even if they aren't defconstant; I'm not sure how universal that is. 2016-12-06T20:13:30Z fiveop: jasom: I did that too. My example was not a perfect reproduction of my actual code there. 2016-12-06T20:14:02Z younder: I may be stupid but I have never understood defconstant in SBCL so I just use defparameter. 2016-12-06T20:14:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: same 2016-12-06T20:14:26Z fiveop: jasom: The problem is, if you already have fasl for file A that should be loaded before file B, I had the impression that file B will be compiled before file A is loaded. (Though that sound wrong) 2016-12-06T20:14:52Z fiveop: DEFCONSTANT checks via EQ if the value was changed 2016-12-06T20:14:58Z jasom: younder: eql is the key there; any two integers '3 will be eql, so you can use defconstant with an integer; the same is not true of two strings "3" though, so you can't use defconstant 2016-12-06T20:15:02Z jasom: fiveop: eql actually 2016-12-06T20:15:06Z fiveop: so certain values work fine, while others (e.g. (list ...)) don't 2016-12-06T20:15:08Z fiveop: sory 2016-12-06T20:15:10Z fiveop: +r 2016-12-06T20:16:14Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:17:49Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-06T20:18:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:18:40Z jasom: If you need optimizations of literal forms, then you can always use define-symbol-macro, but that doesn't seem to be a common idiom, so avoid it where you haven't profiled and measured to know it makes a difference. 2016-12-06T20:18:42Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:19:07Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T20:19:46Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-06T20:20:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-06T20:21:19Z jasom: I'm sure that if you dig through my network code you'll find this somewhere: (define-symbol-macro +crnl+ #.(coerce '(#\Return #\Newline) 'string)) 2016-12-06T20:22:04Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-12-06T20:23:27Z fiveop: The only time DEFCONSTANT helped me improve performance (the only time I actually cared :)) I was dealing with integers, so I could use it. 2016-12-06T20:24:05Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:24:20Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T20:25:08Z younder: Well with defconstant defined with EQL the only thing you an use it for are numbers and symbols, right? 2016-12-06T20:25:56Z jasom: younder: characters too I thnk 2016-12-06T20:26:13Z younder: True 2016-12-06T20:27:11Z fiveop: Thank you, for the help 2016-12-06T20:27:14Z fiveop quit 2016-12-06T20:32:40Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:32:47Z watersoul quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T20:32:47Z jokleinn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T20:33:04Z watersoul joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:33:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:33:45Z Acherontius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-06T20:33:57Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:34:46Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:34:54Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T20:35:19Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:35:32Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:36:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-06T20:36:48Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T20:40:29Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-12-06T21:52:33Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T21:53:05Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-12-06T21:53:15Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: if you had (define-macro define-constant (name value) `(defconstant ,name (if (boundp name) (symbol-value name) value)) it would be incorrect. placing the conditional on boundp in a function call fixes the problem 2016-12-06T21:53:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, off to finish up this coursera algorithms course 2016-12-06T21:53:43Z jasom: oops, I was missing a comma, but you get the idea. 2016-12-06T21:53:51Z jasom: delaying the evaluation would also work 2016-12-06T21:53:55Z xaotuk1 joined #lisp 2016-12-06T21:53:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmmm, I'd think that (eql (symbol-value name) value) would be true in that case... 2016-12-06T21:54:09Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: but if you compile it, the macro is expanded 2016-12-06T21:54:13Z russellw- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T21:54:44Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T21:54:45Z xaotuk1 is now known as xaotuk 2016-12-06T21:55:09Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-06T21:55:17Z jasom: `(defmacro foo (n v) `(defconstant ,name (if (boundp ',name) (symbol-value ',name) ,value)) is correct `(defmacro foo (n v) `(defconstant ,name ,(if (boundp name) (symbol-value name) value)) is incorrect 2016-12-06T21:55:41Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-06T21:56:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, I see, I think you were thinking of the form in the macro and I was thinking of the macroexpansion. 2016-12-06T21:56:14Z jasom: because when you compile it, it's macro expanded, so the conditional is removed in the second form. 2016-12-06T21:57:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was saying that (defconstant +foo+ (if (boundp '+symbol+)...)) was conformant and I think you're saying that the if can't be evaluated at macroexansion time but has to be evaluated at compile and load time 2016-12-06T21:57:48Z jasom: correct 2016-12-06T22:00:13Z seg joined #lisp 2016-12-06T22:08:37Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-06T22:13:09Z rashmirathi quit 2016-12-06T22:17:27Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-06T22:17:27Z mtd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-06T22:20:11Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-06T22:22:18Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-06T22:23:09Z mtd joined #lisp 2016-12-06T22:26:22Z Sigyn quit (Quit: Can we drop the ‘artificial intelligence’? 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I know what you mean. 2016-12-07T00:34:40Z Xach: (ql:quickload "not-what-i-wanted") no match 2016-12-07T00:34:49Z pillton: That happens to me a bit. 2016-12-07T00:35:10Z pillton: I mostly run (asdf:test-system "XX"). 2016-12-07T00:35:45Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-07T00:36:32Z spacebat`: I have paredit in my muscle memory, and sometimes the things I throw together at the repl are a bit involved 2016-12-07T00:36:59Z spacebat`: but I might try smartparens in repls instead 2016-12-07T00:38:07Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T00:39:15Z Xach: If I get too involved in the repl, I start putting things in a scratch file. 2016-12-07T00:43:09Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T00:43:59Z spacebat`: me too, I just like paredit functionality everywhere there are s-exps 2016-12-07T00:44:11Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-07T00:44:42Z spacebat`: seems there isn't the magic fix I was hoping for, but I'll either make one or adjust my expectations 2016-12-07T00:49:19Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T00:50:02Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-07T00:51:08Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T00:52:19Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-07T00:53:57Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T00:54:38Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-07T00:54:55Z tristero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-07T00:55:14Z tristero joined #lisp 2016-12-07T00:55:16Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:02:53Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:05:18Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:06:32Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T01:07:02Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:07:11Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:10:24Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:11:25Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T01:11:34Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:11:43Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:11:43Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:15:07Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:15:47Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:16:21Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:16:48Z yjikuh joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:18:20Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:18:21Z Colleen_ is now known as Colleen 2016-12-07T01:18:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:19:20Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:19:39Z spacebat` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T01:20:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:22:54Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:28:47Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:35:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: paredit is better with evil mode: I bind various combinations of ,<> to pulling more things into the current form and ,,+,. to pushing things out of it and then ,~ to convolute (useful for swapping two forms) and ,A,S,D to various kinds of splicing (splice+delete before, just splice, splice+delete after) an finally ,W for wrapping with parens and ,w" for wrapping with quotes. (all this in evil's normal mode keymap). It's a really great 2016-12-07T01:35:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: experience. 2016-12-07T01:36:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I can do nearly anything by using search to get to the place I want to edit and then hitting two keys to change the code's structure. 2016-12-07T01:45:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Some stats about the Sbcl codebase: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/06e9l7i1yxq80ro/AAD1HJp5pdquR-1Qq_3zCc8za?dl=0 2016-12-07T01:45:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: From this guy's scripts: https://erikbern.com/2016/12/05/the-half-life-of-code.html 2016-12-07T01:45:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Was there some significant increase in interest in 2015? 2016-12-07T01:47:16Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:48:18Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T01:48:46Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T01:49:27Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:49:47Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:49:52Z floatingman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-07T01:52:09Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:55:15Z floatingman joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:56:28Z jdz joined #lisp 2016-12-07T01:58:27Z nhandler quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-07T02:01:32Z nhandler joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:06:05Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T02:07:35Z Xach: I had a program to chart that in my moviechart style 2016-12-07T02:07:49Z Xach looks for it 2016-12-07T02:08:33Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T02:08:49Z Xach: http://xach.com/charts/sbcl.html - only 8 years out of date 2016-12-07T02:10:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T02:10:15Z seg joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:23:12Z tristero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-07T02:23:19Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: is that program actually accurate? Wouldn't it e.g. count a renamed file as entirely new code for that year based on how git works? 2016-12-07T02:24:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I'm not really sure, I've seen some criticism of the tool's methods online I think it's probably good enough to be interesting, but not much more. 2016-12-07T02:24:54Z aeth: with Lisp you could probably go deeper and analyze the structure of things 2016-12-07T02:25:22Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:25:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Git is a bit annoying because, since it's content-addressed, you can't rename + change a file at the same time without losing history 2016-12-07T02:27:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:28:34Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:29:41Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T02:30:09Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T02:30:10Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-12-07T02:30:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:31:38Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T02:39:03Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T02:40:22Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:43:32Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:47:44Z o`connor_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T02:49:29Z Mynock^_^ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T02:59:41Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:01:21Z tristero joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:03:16Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:03:24Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T03:03:40Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:04:13Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-07T03:04:14Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-07T03:04:52Z ahungry`: is there a json package that allows selection based on formats similar to javascript? So if I decode a json string, I can refer to a sub-node via object.parent[0].child[0].name via that type of string, as opposed to (cdr (assoc 'name (cdr (car (assoc 'child (cdr (car (assoc 'parent object)))))))) for instance? 2016-12-07T03:05:01Z ahungry` is now known as ahungry 2016-12-07T03:06:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might consider implementing something like (get-in decoded-json #(:parent 0 :child 0 :name)) 2016-12-07T03:06:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: It shouldn't be too difficult. 2016-12-07T03:06:42Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:06:57Z ahungry: yea, if there is no such package, I think I'm going to make one, seems pretty trivial, but would make working with json in CL a much better experience 2016-12-07T03:07:01Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T03:07:27Z gendl: Hi, another json question - is it true that Yason 0.7.2 (from two years ago) handled nested plists with yason:encode-plist, but 0.7.6 doesn't handle nested plists? Or am I missing something? 2016-12-07T03:07:31Z ahungry: most the json libs seem to go with alists instead of nested hash tables, which also means its very cumbersome to modify these decoded values 2016-12-07T03:07:37Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:08:21Z gendl: I used to be able to do (yason:encode-plist (list :a "a" :b "b" :c (list :d "d"))) and get back a nested json sequence 2016-12-07T03:09:06Z gendl: 0.7.2: 2016-12-07T03:09:14Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/X8dZ3LFf/ 2016-12-07T03:09:49Z gendl: 0.7.6: 2016-12-07T03:09:54Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/pdkpXilo/ 2016-12-07T03:11:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:11:19Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:12:05Z psacrifice quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:12:28Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:13:30Z yjikuh quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-12-07T03:13:46Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:16:27Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T03:20:12Z loke prefers ST-JSON 2016-12-07T03:20:16Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:20:31Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:20:39Z gendl: loke: I just need something which can round-trip nested plists to/from json... 2016-12-07T03:22:18Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T03:23:36Z loke: I would do it like this: 2016-12-07T03:23:45Z loke: Oh wait... PLISTS? 2016-12-07T03:23:50Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:23:52Z loke never uses plists 2016-12-07T03:25:29Z loke: I'd have to write a recursive function to generate the ST-JSON data for that. 2016-12-07T03:26:21Z White_Flame: you'd to represent json arrays as lisp arrays instead of lists, so they wouldn't be ambiguous 2016-12-07T03:26:39Z White_Flame: and I doubt anybody doing json is doing that 2016-12-07T03:27:03Z loke: White_Flame: ST-JSON uses a special object to represent Json objects. 2016-12-07T03:27:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think yason can go from JSON -> hash-table, alist or plist 2016-12-07T03:27:17Z loke: But you'd still have to write some code to do the parsing of the alists 2016-12-07T03:27:18Z White_Flame: right, if they were plists, they'd be ambiguous with json arrays 2016-12-07T03:27:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: And vice-versa. 2016-12-07T03:27:51Z gendl: don't plists map into json dictionaries? with { ... } 2016-12-07T03:28:02Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-12-07T03:28:15Z White_Flame: gendl: then what would (1 2 3) map into, if not [1,2,3] 2016-12-07T03:28:16Z gendl: that's what yason does -- a plist just goes into a {... } 2016-12-07T03:28:31Z gendl: (1 2 3) would indeed map to [1,2,3] 2016-12-07T03:28:48Z gendl: but (:a 1 :b 2 :c 3) would map to {a: 1; b: 2; c: 3} 2016-12-07T03:28:49Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T03:28:51Z White_Flame: and (1 2 3 4) would map into {"1":2, "3":4}? 2016-12-07T03:29:07Z gendl: i'm not talking about trying to guess automatically 2016-12-07T03:29:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: yason is configurable 2016-12-07T03:29:24Z gendl: separate functions encode-list, encode-plist, encode-alist 2016-12-07T03:29:27Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:29:35Z White_Flame: but those are composite strucutres with nested data 2016-12-07T03:29:37Z gendl: so if i know i'm starting with a plist in Lisp, I just call encode-plist 2016-12-07T03:29:53Z White_Flame: {"a":[1,2,3,4], "b":{"a":1, "b":2}} 2016-12-07T03:30:26Z gendl: i know i'm starting with pure nested plist, where any values which are lists are gonna be plists 2016-12-07T03:30:44Z White_Flame: encode-plist only declares what the toplevel type is; you'd still have to figure out the nested objects' types 2016-12-07T03:30:50Z gendl: I know there will be no such thing as (:a 1 :b 2 :c (3 4 5)) 2016-12-07T03:31:12Z White_Flame: well, that's a pretty strict constraint, so you wouldn't find any existing json lib doing that. You'd certainly have to roll your own 2016-12-07T03:31:14Z gendl: yason:encode-plist used to handle nested plists no prob. Do you think that was just by accident? 2016-12-07T03:33:17Z gendl: and it would decode nested json dictionary objects into nice nested plists, if you said :object-as :plist 2016-12-07T03:33:36Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:33:55Z gendl: I'm just going to revert to yason 0.7.2 for now by putting it in my quicklisp/local-projects/ 2016-12-07T03:34:13Z loke: Here's my solution: 2016-12-07T03:34:14Z loke: (labels ((encode-plist (p) 2016-12-07T03:34:14Z loke: (apply #'st-json:jso (loop for (a b) on p by #'cddr nconc (list a (if (listp b) (encode-plist b) b)))))) 2016-12-07T03:34:14Z loke: (encode-plist '("a" "b" "foo" "bar" "xyz" ("q" "w" "a" "b")))) 2016-12-07T03:34:23Z gendl: and file an Issue with the yason github, asking if the loss of nested plist handling was intentional (or if the historical behavior was ever intentional ;) 2016-12-07T03:34:28Z White_Flame: erm, (yason:encode-plist '("a" "b" "c" ("d" "e" "f"))) => ["a","b","c",["d","e","f","g"]]. Maybe I don't know how to use it 2016-12-07T03:35:12Z White_Flame: (oops, mixed a line, one had "g", the other didn't) 2016-12-07T03:35:56Z White_Flame: gendl: interpreting what lists mean is too ambiguous. It might have a fixed interpretation in your project, but that's not really sensible for a standalone library 2016-12-07T03:37:16Z gendl: i'm not asking it to interpret. I'm telling it they are plists. 2016-12-07T03:37:40Z gendl: i guess the ambiguous part is whether any nested lists are supposed to be seen as plists 2016-12-07T03:38:40Z moei joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:38:44Z gendl: as you mentioned, encode-plist only declares what the toplevel type is. I suppose it could use another optional argument to nail down the type of recursively contained lists. 2016-12-07T03:38:52Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2016-12-07T03:39:09Z Colleen joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:39:31Z gendl: it used to assume they were plists, but it's not clear if that was by design or by temporarily happy accident 2016-12-07T03:40:03Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:40:43Z White_Flame: I'd guess a happy accident 2016-12-07T03:40:47Z gendl: loke: thanks for the suggestion. I suppose I can whip up a similar thing with yason 2016-12-07T03:40:53Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:41:06Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-12-07T03:41:28Z White_Flame: basically, you'd want an option to say "I have no json arrays; all lists should be converted to json objects" 2016-12-07T03:42:04Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:42:05Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:42:17Z gendl: "json object" means a thing with {...} and key/value pairs, right? (known in some circles as a "dictionary") 2016-12-07T03:42:30Z gendl: pretty much maps into a Python dictionary 2016-12-07T03:42:42Z gendl: or a Javascript dictionary 2016-12-07T03:42:45Z pillton: Format should be able to do it. :) 2016-12-07T03:42:51Z gendl: (or is that called an "object" in javascript) 2016-12-07T03:42:55Z arrsim joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:43:09Z White_Flame: yes, {} is a json object, [] is a json array 2016-12-07T03:43:18Z White_Flame: I don't think json uses the term "list" anywhere 2016-12-07T03:43:49Z White_Flame: I think array, object, string, number, and boolean are the types it supports. I think also null 2016-12-07T03:43:55Z gendl: pillton: I know, format can do anything if you twist its arm hard enough... 2016-12-07T03:45:06Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T03:46:52Z gendl: anyway thanks for the clarifications, I have a couple things to try now before lodging an Issue with yason... 2016-12-07T03:47:04Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-12-07T03:50:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T03:57:01Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:00:33Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:00:57Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T04:01:29Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:01:57Z psacrifice quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T04:02:43Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:02:54Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:05:58Z Jameser quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-12-07T04:08:51Z gendl: ... and by reading a few of the closed Issues on yason, it looks like Hans removed the previous nested behavior on purpose. The intention is for the application layer to take care of specific encoding functions for particular known nested structures. 2016-12-07T04:15:04Z sword joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:15:27Z loke: gendl: There are lots of gendl projects in QL by the way 2016-12-07T04:15:44Z loke: gendl: Seems to be part of a single repository? 2016-12-07T04:15:58Z loke: is it one project or many? 2016-12-07T04:16:55Z gendl: good question. 2016-12-07T04:17:58Z gendl: some of it could be considered "applications" and could or maybe should be broken out into separate repositories. 2016-12-07T04:20:15Z gendl: and gendl itself is made up of several layers, where the lower layers can be loaded without the higher ones (for example if you don't need geometry). 2016-12-07T04:21:00Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:21:44Z gendl: there's a #gendl room here if you'd like to talk about it some more, but bedtime for me here now... 2016-12-07T04:24:46Z loke: gendl: Is there a list somewhereof the different components and the features they provide? 2016-12-07T04:24:46Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T04:25:48Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:26:42Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:29:58Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:32:01Z _leb joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:35:24Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-12-07T04:37:04Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:40:15Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-07T04:43:59Z zooey is now known as zooey[m] 2016-12-07T04:44:47Z zooey[m] is now known as zooey 2016-12-07T04:47:08Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T04:48:09Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-07T04:56:46Z heurist` is now known as heurist 2016-12-07T04:59:31Z Mynock^_^ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T05:02:58Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T05:06:28Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T05:10:02Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T05:11:25Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 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2016-12-07T06:57:58Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-07T06:58:30Z mrSpec: namesnick: pass this variable as argument in the function. 2016-12-07T06:58:33Z beach: namesnick: Could you explain your problem a bit more? 2016-12-07T06:58:50Z namesnick: beach: sure 2016-12-07T06:59:18Z flip214: namesnick: it's dynamic extent, so for that call-chain. 2016-12-07T06:59:42Z flip214: use (LET ((*counter 0)) (my-function)) to give _that_ call chain some initial value, then the 2016-12-07T06:59:53Z flip214: function(s) therein can do (INCF *counter*) and check it. 2016-12-07T06:59:55Z namesnick: if the base case is not met it will loop some number of fixed times and call the function again 2016-12-07T07:00:02Z drot joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:00:28Z namesnick: it will save that value and find the max between the value it currently holds and the value returned by the function 2016-12-07T07:02:55Z beach: namesnick: Maybe it is better if you explain what it is that you want to accomplish. 2016-12-07T07:04:32Z namesnick: so for a more concrete example we would have (defun foo depth x (if (= depth 4) x (loop for i from 1 to 4 do (foo (- depth 1) x) )) 2016-12-07T07:05:34Z namesnick: in this case x is a local variable and I want to change it for each call to foo in the loop 2016-12-07T07:05:59Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:06:15Z namesnick: and lets just say that it takes the max of the current x and the result of foo and assignes that to x 2016-12-07T07:06:34Z namesnick: assigns* 2016-12-07T07:07:52Z beach: You don't make much sense (sorry). But you can change the value of X any way you want by using SETF. 2016-12-07T07:08:35Z beach: Like (setf x (max x (foo ...))) 2016-12-07T07:09:31Z namesnick: http://paste.lisp.org/display/333485 2016-12-07T07:10:18Z beach: Use SETF. 2016-12-07T07:10:37Z beach: namesnick: That code is not valid Common Lisp. 2016-12-07T07:10:55Z beach: namesnick: Your lambda list is incorrect. 2016-12-07T07:11:12Z beach: namesnick: And your indentation is wrong. 2016-12-07T07:11:17Z rageoholic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-07T07:11:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T07:13:13Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-12-07T07:14:38Z namesnick: beach: the issue with setting x globally using setf is that after one nested call returns the x would be overwritten 2016-12-07T07:16:18Z namesnick: if you consider this call stack : foo (where x is 0) -> foo (x=0) -> foo (x=0) -> foo (x is set to 7) 2016-12-07T07:16:31Z beach: namesnick: Again, you make no sense. Your code does not have a valid lambda list, so there is no way you can execute it. 2016-12-07T07:16:44Z namesnick: when the fourth foo is returned the third foo (where x is set to 0) is now set to 7 2016-12-07T07:17:22Z beach: ... and SETF does not "set x globally". 2016-12-07T07:19:12Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T07:23:03Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:25:17Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:26:00Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T07:27:00Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T07:28:45Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:31:32Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:32:45Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T07:34:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T07:34:52Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:37:12Z Warlock[29A] joined #lisp 2016-12-07T07:38:24Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T07:39:43Z cibs joined #lisp 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This effectively limits the message signing and verification to SHA-1. Doestn't this effectively limit the signature hash to SHA-1? 2016-12-07T13:04:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T13:07:03Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:07:28Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T13:10:52Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:19:02Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:21:23Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:28:58Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:31:25Z kang0 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:31:26Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-07T13:32:30Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:38:35Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:39:16Z manuel__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T13:43:23Z manuel___ quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-07T13:44:37Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:45:29Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:52:20Z kang0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T13:52:38Z kang0 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T13:53:11Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:01:38Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:01:43Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:03:06Z jibanes joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:03:21Z kang0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T14:03:34Z kang0 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:06:56Z aindilis2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:09:08Z djh quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-07T14:09:22Z djh joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:10:30Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-07T14:11:16Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:19:17Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:21:02Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:23:11Z warweasle: Has anyone implemented a logic based lisp library? Besides PAIP or Gambol? 2016-12-07T14:23:44Z flip214: warweasle: LOGAND LOGIOR LOGXOR? 2016-12-07T14:23:59Z warweasle: flip214: I mean similar to prolog. 2016-12-07T14:24:06Z shrdlu68: Nope. More like prolog, I would guess. 2016-12-07T14:25:33Z flip214: doesn't "On Lisp" also contain some prolog example? 2016-12-07T14:27:45Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:27:51Z warweasle: flip214: Is it mature and maintained? 2016-12-07T14:28:11Z warweasle: flip214: I guess not, since it's a book. 2016-12-07T14:28:47Z manuel__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:28:53Z shrdlu68: warweasle: What are you upto? 2016-12-07T14:29:29Z Xach: warweasle: KnowledgeWorks! 2016-12-07T14:29:30Z warweasle: shrdlu68: I have a specialized topological sort, I thought I could use a logic package to solve things for me. 2016-12-07T14:29:35Z setheus joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:30:01Z Xach: http://www.lispworks.com/products/knowledgeworks.html 2016-12-07T14:30:38Z warweasle: Xach: Can I access it from the free version? 2016-12-07T14:30:47Z imprfcto joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:30:49Z imprfcto: hei 2016-12-07T14:31:04Z warweasle: Although it will limit clinch to a single implementation.. 2016-12-07T14:31:13Z imprfcto: is a mp3 player a good project for a n00b in coding? 2016-12-07T14:31:40Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:31:55Z dmiles: warweasle: see http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mfkb/RKF/km.html 2016-12-07T14:32:17Z Xach: imprfcto: some parts of that project would be difficult in a way that is not especially educational. 2016-12-07T14:32:22Z warweasle will likely just hard code it for the near future. I'm trying to generate a render loop and shaders. 2016-12-07T14:32:48Z shrdlu68: imprfcto: Probably not, Unless you're coding the mp3 codecs. 2016-12-07T14:33:18Z imprfcto: like the ncmpcpp 2016-12-07T14:33:53Z warweasle: dmiles: That looks like a start. 2016-12-07T14:34:20Z dmiles: as Xach said KW is great to 2016-12-07T14:34:45Z Cymew: ncmpcpp? How the hell do you pronounce that? 2016-12-07T14:34:46Z shrdlu68: warweasle: Wouldn't the PAIP code suffice? 2016-12-07T14:35:12Z dmiles: here is the transcipt of what people do in KM: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mfkb/km/km-overview.script 2016-12-07T14:35:26Z warweasle: shrdlu68: It's memory intensive and slowish, iirc. 2016-12-07T14:35:32Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T14:36:13Z shrdlu68: Aren't there optimization fetishists around here? 2016-12-07T14:36:29Z warweasle: shrdlu68: You can find them in #lispgames 2016-12-07T14:36:30Z dmiles: this has been the fastest lisp prolog i've seen: https://github.com/Johnicholas/Hello-Github/blob/master/prolog-in-hundreds-of-loc/Boizumault/microPrologII/V4.lsp 2016-12-07T14:36:38Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:36:39Z shrdlu68: There you go. 2016-12-07T14:37:54Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:38:18Z warweasle: dmiles: Thanks! 2016-12-07T14:38:43Z dmiles: i do remember editing it a few times to make it work ight on various systems 2016-12-07T14:39:45Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-07T14:39:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:41:12Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:41:26Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T14:42:36Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:44:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:45:18Z dmiles: and here it is rewritten by pjb :P https://github.com/TeamSPoon/PrologMUD/tree/development/pack/logicmoo_nlu/prolog/e2c/pjb-micro-prolog-ii 2016-12-07T14:45:36Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:46:05Z dmiles: it loads/runs the benchmark.pl 2016-12-07T14:46:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:48:20Z dmiles: go one directory above and there are a few prolog like systems 2016-12-07T14:49:43Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:49:50Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T14:51:42Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:52:28Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:52:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:53:19Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:56:47Z tetero joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:57:15Z tetero: What do you lispers think of Clojure? 2016-12-07T14:57:36Z igam: That it should have been implemented as a Common Lisp library. 2016-12-07T14:58:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-07T14:59:18Z dmiles: it is replacablble with jss 2016-12-07T14:59:31Z dmiles: (well mostly) 2016-12-07T14:59:37Z tetero: igam: That's an interesting viewpoint. I didn't think of that 2016-12-07T14:59:49Z ragepandemic: jss? 2016-12-07T15:00:17Z dmiles: http://abcl.org/svn/tags/1.3.3/contrib/jss/README.markdown 2016-12-07T15:00:26Z beach: tetero: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you won't get an unbiased opinion. 2016-12-07T15:00:51Z tetero: beach: I'm not expecting an unbiased one 2016-12-07T15:01:02Z tetero: I like to get more than one opinion 2016-12-07T15:01:22Z dmiles: i do wonder what clojure has though that is special 2016-12-07T15:01:26Z beach: tetero: Also, since this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, other programming languages are off topic. 2016-12-07T15:01:29Z tetero: igam's response was something I hadn't thought of, for example 2016-12-07T15:01:49Z ragepandemic: Well, what about the literal syntax for persistent maps, vectors, etc.? 2016-12-07T15:02:07Z tetero: beach: Yeah. But I couldn't think of a better place to ask what people from clisp think of clojure 2016-12-07T15:02:26Z dmiles: ragepandemic: just a few macros would do it right? 2016-12-07T15:02:31Z beach: tetero: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp, and not an abbreviation for it. 2016-12-07T15:02:45Z tetero: beach: Oh. Common Lisp, then 2016-12-07T15:03:02Z igam: ragepandemic: indeed, it would be trivial to write reader similar macros in CL. 2016-12-07T15:03:18Z beach: tetero: There is a ##lisp channel for all Lisps, provided you think Clojure is a Lisp. 2016-12-07T15:03:52Z ragepandemic: IIRC Rich Hickey had a set of reasons for not writing clojure as a CL library 2016-12-07T15:04:40Z tetero: beach: Ah. I wasn't aware of it. I'll try that instead. I don't know enough about lisp/functional programming to know whether it is or isn't. It's definitely inspired by it 2016-12-07T15:04:42Z dmiles: before clojure there was this .. http://dotlisp.sourceforge.net/dotlisp.htm 2016-12-07T15:04:56Z igam: ragepandemic: Which reduced basically to a publicity stunt. He was successfull. 2016-12-07T15:05:15Z dmiles: DotLisp - A Lisp dialect for .Net - he then switched the code to the jvm and making clojure 2016-12-07T15:05:37Z ragepandemic: You guys really think clojure is redundant? What about the interop story? 2016-12-07T15:05:40Z beach: tetero: See, Common Lisp is not a particularly "functional" programming language. 2016-12-07T15:06:01Z tetero: beach: No? 2016-12-07T15:06:25Z beach: tetero: No. For instance, Common Lisp has one of the most powerful object systems around. 2016-12-07T15:06:53Z tetero: beach: Oh. Actor model? 2016-12-07T15:06:57Z Posterdati: hi 2016-12-07T15:07:04Z beach: tetero: No, generic functions. 2016-12-07T15:07:16Z Posterdati: did anyone port sicm to common lisp? 2016-12-07T15:07:16Z dmiles: object systems be even more powerfull if objects were forward chanined deductions 2016-12-07T15:08:16Z dmiles: (and some objects mere existance wound be based on backcaining over a unify) 2016-12-07T15:08:19Z beach: tetero: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrmHp1rRQ68 2016-12-07T15:08:37Z tetero: beach: I'm reading about it atm 2016-12-07T15:09:42Z travv0 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T15:10:11Z dmiles: i am stuill very shocked clojure was considered usefull 2016-12-07T15:10:13Z travv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T15:11:08Z ragepandemic: Well, what's your opinion on clojure's immutability for everything? I mean, from what I saw CL is a mostly mutable language 2016-12-07T15:11:37Z loke`: ragepandemic: It's quite silly. 2016-12-07T15:11:46Z dmiles: (and that clojure's irc channel for isntance is 50% larger) 2016-12-07T15:12:27Z dmiles: immutability is about pogrammer mistrust and abuse right? 2016-12-07T15:12:33Z beach: ragepandemic: I just went through saying that Clojure is off topic here. 2016-12-07T15:12:33Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-07T15:12:56Z tetero: ragepandemic, igam do you mind if we talk about this in ##java? I'd like to hear this conversation 2016-12-07T15:12:58Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-07T15:12:59Z tetero: err 2016-12-07T15:13:00Z ragepandemic: beach, alright sorry 2016-12-07T15:13:01Z tetero: ##lisp sorry 2016-12-07T15:14:41Z igam: tetero: sorry, I cannot allocate time for a full discussion right now. 2016-12-07T15:15:05Z tetero: igam: Could you share a few opinions via pm? 2016-12-07T15:17:35Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T15:17:35Z igam: tetero: I'm at work, not now. 2016-12-07T15:18:04Z tetero: All right. 2016-12-07T15:20:17Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T15:21:53Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-07T15:32:14Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-12-07T15:34:07Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-07T15:35:01Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T15:35:34Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-07T15:35:42Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-12-07T15:36:38Z Xach quit (Quit: brb) 2016-12-07T15:36:49Z shka_ 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2016-12-07T16:06:15Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-07T16:06:22Z mykon joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:06:24Z mykon: hei 2016-12-07T16:06:53Z mykon: I am the one who asked about mp3 project. 2016-12-07T16:07:02Z mykon: so what's a easy project then? 2016-12-07T16:07:48Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:08:00Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T16:11:39Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:12:17Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:16:26Z psacrifice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T16:19:44Z flip214: mykon: how about starting with some small web application, using hunchentoot as in-lisp http server? 2016-12-07T16:20:39Z mjanssen joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:21:11Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T16:21:49Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-12-07T16:22:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:23:20Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:23:26Z travv0 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:30:20Z kami joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:30:34Z kami quit (Changing host) 2016-12-07T16:30:34Z kami joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:30:44Z kami: Good evening 2016-12-07T16:31:08Z beach: Hello kami. 2016-12-07T16:34:19Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:34:21Z psacrifice joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:36:26Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T16:37:59Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_bbib 2016-12-07T16:38:09Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:38:28Z psacrifice quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-07T16:39:17Z trocado: hi! is it possible to step through the iterations of a loop with sbcl's debugger? 2016-12-07T16:39:23Z trocado: loop with the loop macro 2016-12-07T16:39:51Z igam: You can insert (break) in the source of the loop body. 2016-12-07T16:42:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:42:14Z trocado: for example: (loop :for n :in lst :collect (+ n 2)) 2016-12-07T16:42:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T16:42:22Z trocado: where do i put the (break)? 2016-12-07T16:42:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:42:53Z kang0 quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2016-12-07T16:42:58Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T16:43:06Z beach: (loop for ignore = (break) for n in list ...) 2016-12-07T16:43:06Z warweasle_bbib is now known as warweasle 2016-12-07T16:43:15Z igam: (loop :for n :in lst :do (break) :collect (+ n 2)) or (loop :for n :in lst :collect (progn (break) (+ n 2))) 2016-12-07T16:44:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:47:26Z trocado: that does it. sorry it was obvious... thank you both! 2016-12-07T16:49:05Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:49:24Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T16:49:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also (step ...) which sometimes works 2016-12-07T16:50:01Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:50:14Z seg joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:50:36Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T16:50:42Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:50:49Z igam: trocado: I would suggest using my cl-stepper… 2016-12-07T16:53:34Z prole joined #lisp 2016-12-07T16:53:55Z holly2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T16:54:18Z igam: trocado: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/nj3jFxcJYM0/QbzGkAbyAtMJ 2016-12-07T16:58:14Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2016-12-07T17:00:50Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-12-07T17:01:13Z holly2 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T17:02:12Z trocado: igam: I'll check it out, tks! 2016-12-07T17:03:34Z Spelndid joined #lisp 2016-12-07T17:04:55Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T17:06:07Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T17:06:50Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T17:06:59Z travv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T17:07:07Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-07T17:08:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T17:11:09Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T17:12:23Z LiamH quit (Ping 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2016-12-07T19:38:41Z Sergeeeek: Hello everybody! Can you recommend me a good lisp book? I'm a beginner 2016-12-07T19:38:58Z warweasle: Practical Common Lisp 2016-12-07T19:39:16Z warweasle: It's what I learned on. 2016-12-07T19:39:32Z jackdaniel: misv: tell Sergeeeek about pcl 2016-12-07T19:39:38Z jackdaniel: minion: tell Sergeeeek about pcl 2016-12-07T19:39:38Z minion: Sergeeeek: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2016-12-07T19:39:43Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-07T19:39:45Z jackdaniel: misv: sorry! tab completion 2016-12-07T19:39:57Z Sergeeeek: Cool, thanks :) 2016-12-07T19:40:04Z rudolfochrist: Land of Lisp is a fun read, too 2016-12-07T19:40:21Z warweasle: rudolfochrist: I agree, but I think it's a perfect *second* book. 2016-12-07T19:40:35Z rudolfochrist: plus it hash nice comics :) 2016-12-07T19:41:09Z warweasle: rudolfochrist: Also it has a music video. 2016-12-07T19:41:28Z rudolfochrist: warweasle: right. almost forgot about that 2016-12-07T19:42:12Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-07T19:42:31Z jasom: minion: tell Sergeeeek about gentle 2016-12-07T19:42:31Z minion: Sergeeeek: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2016-12-07T19:42:48Z phoe: Sergeeeek: did you do any programming before? 2016-12-07T19:42:56Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-12-07T19:43:23Z Sergeeeek: phoe: yeah, imperative programming mostly, but recently I've been trying to learn haskell 2016-12-07T19:43:33Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-12-07T19:43:51Z jasom: Sergeeeek: gentle starts very slow, but does cover a lot of the language. If you are "very comfortable" with any non-lisp programming language, pcl will probably be faster for you. 2016-12-07T19:44:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-07T19:44:25Z jackdaniel: if we talk about other books, ANSI CL by Graham is very good for people who already program in something what isn't lisp 2016-12-07T19:44:43Z phoe: ^ 2016-12-07T19:44:44Z jasom: Sergeeeek: well haskell and lisp are very nearly on opposite ends of the spectrum for higher-level languages, so if you learn those two, you'll be in a good position :) 2016-12-07T19:45:10Z phoe: While I greatly enjoy PCL and can recommend it without two thoughts, I like Graham's work and began understanding Lisp by reading his ANSI CL. 2016-12-07T19:45:22Z warweasle: jasom: You forgot Forth. It's the last corner of the great quadrilateral. 2016-12-07T19:45:29Z jasom: though really it's a multidimensional space 2016-12-07T19:45:33Z warweasle: jasom: You could say it's the forth corner. 2016-12-07T19:45:40Z Sergeeeek: jasom: what do you mean opposite? Is it because haskell is strongly and statically typed? 2016-12-07T19:46:02Z jasom: Sergeeeek: haskell is strongly typed and lazy. Lisp is dynamically typed and eager. 2016-12-07T19:46:20Z warweasle: Sergeeeek: The best way to explain it is: Haskell makes diamonds. Lisp evolves organisms. 2016-12-07T19:46:37Z phoe: diamonds are still expensive as fuck 2016-12-07T19:46:43Z phoe: while organic materia is everywhere 2016-12-07T19:46:50Z jasom: diamonds are organic :P 2016-12-07T19:47:08Z jasom: APL is in another corner of the multidimensional space for that matter. 2016-12-07T19:47:14Z phoe: 100% high-pressure-made carbon that hardly reacts with anything, hardly organic in my vision of the world 2016-12-07T19:47:16Z jasom ignores warweasle's incredibly lame pun. 2016-12-07T19:47:18Z jackdaniel: Lisp is like a mudball – any amount of mud added to it doesn't change its very nature (paraphrase ;) 2016-12-07T19:47:28Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T19:47:41Z rudolfochrist: jasom: CL is also strongly typed. A number will always be a number. 2016-12-07T19:47:45Z warweasle: phoe: Ok, crystals. You are forced to find the hidden structure of your code and then implement. Lisp...well evolves to the nearest maxima. 2016-12-07T19:48:07Z prole: CL is the language god chosed to code the universe. 2016-12-07T19:48:24Z warweasle: prole: I thought he hacked most of it out in Perl. 2016-12-07T19:48:35Z Xach: jackdaniel: i remember a scheme naming his project snowball, because you can add more snow and it is still clean and pure... 2016-12-07T19:48:38Z jackdaniel: Joel Moses: "APL is like a beautiful diamond – flawless, beautifully symmetrical. But you can't add anything to it. If you try to glue on another diamond, you don't get a bigger diamond. Lisp is like a ball of mud. Add more and it's still a ball of mud – it still looks like Lisp." 2016-12-07T19:48:40Z Xach: "schemer" 2016-12-07T19:48:41Z jasom: rudolfochrist: depending on the context one could call lisp "dynamically typed" or "untyped" those terms can be synonymous. 2016-12-07T19:49:15Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes, its snow-fort (something like quicklisp in fact) 2016-12-07T19:49:18Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T19:49:31Z prole: warweasle: :) 2016-12-07T19:49:45Z jackdaniel: it's paraphrase from Marc Feeley: "Scheme is like a ball of snow. You can add any amount of snow to it and it still looks like a ball of snow. 2016-12-07T19:49:48Z jackdaniel: Moreover, snow is cleaner than mud." 2016-12-07T19:49:58Z warweasle: jasom: Although most implementations can infer types from context and even allow you to specify them. I recently discovered it can limit values much like ADA. 2016-12-07T19:50:00Z phoe: prole: except he glued it up in perl afterwards 2016-12-07T19:50:05Z prole: haha 2016-12-07T19:50:12Z rudolfochrist: jasom: yes. nut this is a contrast to statically typed. On the opossit eof strong I see weak types. such that 1 + "2" results in "12". 2016-12-07T19:50:13Z Xach: I got to meet marc at one of the conferences and it was nice. 2016-12-07T19:50:23Z Xach does not think he can make it to ELS :( 2016-12-07T19:50:32Z rudolfochrist should learn how to type 2016-12-07T19:50:40Z jasom: rudolfochrist: (add 1 "2") could result in "12" in lisp if you created a generic function "add" 2016-12-07T19:51:03Z warweasle: Poor Sergeeeek. 2016-12-07T19:51:09Z jackdaniel goes back to polishing ECL on Windows 2016-12-07T19:51:26Z jasom: warweasle: yes, the compile time type checks that cmucl/sbcl does is very helpful in code correctness. 2016-12-07T19:51:30Z Sergeeeek: warweasle: why? lol 2016-12-07T19:51:47Z jasom: Sergeeeek: because you ask a question and we start arguing with each other :) 2016-12-07T19:51:54Z rudolfochrist: :) 2016-12-07T19:53:08Z phoe: xD 2016-12-07T19:53:27Z Sergeeeek: I actually had a question I thought you'd start arguing about, but I think I'll save it :) 2016-12-07T19:54:15Z rudolfochrist: Are we still on books? The Little Schemer was perhaps the weirdest programming book I've ever read. Weird as in good. 2016-12-07T19:54:36Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-07T19:54:46Z warweasle: Sergeeeek: Which implementation to use? 2016-12-07T19:55:03Z warweasle: rudolfochrist: There's SICP. 2016-12-07T19:55:17Z rudolfochrist: warweasle: great one 2016-12-07T19:55:48Z Sergeeeek: how many implementations are there actually? I haven't even looked 2016-12-07T19:55:51Z warweasle: rudolfochrist: Although I leaned a lot reading through the source for tinyscheme. 2016-12-07T19:56:04Z warweasle: Sergeeeek: Many. 2016-12-07T19:56:09Z jasom: Sergeeeek: probably 6 living ones and at least a dozen that you could find and possibly get to run. 2016-12-07T19:56:42Z warweasle thinks about trolling with javascript... 2016-12-07T19:56:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T19:56:53Z Sergeeeek: jasom: that's not so bad, I expected way more 2016-12-07T19:56:57Z warweasle does not think it's an acceptable lisp. 2016-12-07T19:57:12Z jasom: Alive Free implementations: ecl, mkcl, cmucl, sbcl, ccl, clisp, gcl 2016-12-07T19:57:14Z rudolfochrist: warweasle: Is it in C? 2016-12-07T19:57:20Z warweasle: rudolfochrist: Yes. 2016-12-07T19:57:25Z Xach: jackdaniel: abcl 2016-12-07T19:57:32Z jasom: Alive Free implementations: ecl, mkcl, cmucl, sbcl, ccl, clisp, gcl, abcl 2016-12-07T19:57:33Z Xach: sorry, jasom 2016-12-07T19:57:44Z jasom: thanks Xach 2016-12-07T19:57:53Z warweasle: What about lispworks, allegro and clozure? 2016-12-07T19:58:03Z Xach: clozure is in the free list. 2016-12-07T19:58:06Z Xach: LW and allegro aren't. 2016-12-07T19:58:13Z jasom: Alive proprietary ones: Allegro, LispWorks. 2016-12-07T19:58:15Z warweasle: Xach: Oh, right. 2016-12-07T19:58:25Z Xach: Zombie proprietary: corman 2016-12-07T19:58:27Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T19:58:29Z rudolfochrist: what about mocl? 2016-12-07T19:58:29Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T19:58:34Z jasom: Xach: it's MIT now 2016-12-07T19:58:35Z Xach: Uncertain proprietary: Scieneer, mocl 2016-12-07T19:58:49Z jasom: I don't think mocl is a complete implementation? 2016-12-07T19:59:00Z Xach: sort of 2016-12-07T19:59:11Z warweasle: I would love to see the performance of the proprietary lisps vs the free ones. 2016-12-07T19:59:15Z jasom: Scieneer, Genera, and Lucid are dead, right? 2016-12-07T20:00:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: warweasle: there was a paper about this somewhere 2016-12-07T20:00:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: it was sort of old, but sbcl was generally competitive with Allegro, iirc 2016-12-07T20:00:24Z jasom: warweasle: totally depends on the application space; sbcl is in a pretty good spot for balancing compile-times and run-time performance, particularly for machine-word numeric code (which is often a hot spot). 2016-12-07T20:01:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/rF1bGwsRxV4 2016-12-07T20:01:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T20:01:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also old... 2016-12-07T20:01:39Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Minor error in ECL compiled to c++: ctags: unrecognized option '--langmap=c:+.d' 2016-12-07T20:01:58Z warweasle doesn't care enough to write an issue. 2016-12-07T20:03:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone here know how modern C++ performance (with smart pointers, etc.) compares to a good lisp compiler? 2016-12-07T20:03:46Z blackwolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T20:04:31Z phoe: jasom: don't forget about mezzano 2016-12-07T20:04:38Z phoe: which is very much alive 2016-12-07T20:04:40Z Xach: so many lisps 2016-12-07T20:04:42Z phoe: despite being very... peculiar 2016-12-07T20:05:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T20:05:43Z aeth: As far as alive and popular the list is much shorter, though. sbcl, ccl, ecl for free. Afaik. And for proprietary Allegro and LispWorks although the list is longer than you think for those. 2016-12-07T20:05:47Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-07T20:06:08Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T20:06:19Z jasom: abcl still gets a decent amount of use too I think. 2016-12-07T20:06:22Z aeth: clisp used to be quite popular but I haven't really seen much use of it lately. 2016-12-07T20:06:37Z warweasle: aeth: Has it been maintained? 2016-12-07T20:06:59Z aeth: jasom: I'm not sure ABCL can count as popular because afaik it's the 3rd JVM Lisp behind Clojure and Kawa Scheme. 2016-12-07T20:07:05Z aeth: I could be wrong, though. I don't live in the Java universe. 2016-12-07T20:07:19Z jasom: aeth: it's the most popular JVM Common Lisp. 2016-12-07T20:07:31Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-07T20:07:36Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-12-07T20:07:42Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-07T20:08:00Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T20:08:35Z jackdaniel: warweasle: it's a known issue, thanks. You may safely assume that all gone fine (i.e make install will work) 2016-12-07T20:08:39Z warweasle: Did anyone mention clasp. 2016-12-07T20:08:49Z aeth: warweasle: it's not 1.0 yet 2016-12-07T20:08:55Z warweasle: Which is a really cool project, if not completely done. 2016-12-07T20:09:51Z aeth: Yeah, but until it can run the very popular libraries that are basically standard, you can't do much with it portably afaik. 2016-12-07T20:09:56Z phoe: jasom: it's the only sensible JVM Common Lisp 2016-12-07T20:10:01Z jackdaniel: if we're counting not completed (yet) implementations, there is mezzano, jscl 2016-12-07T20:10:34Z jackdaniel: gcl is also active 2016-12-07T20:10:51Z jasom: I mentioned gcl 2016-12-07T20:11:11Z jackdaniel: ah, sorry 2016-12-07T20:11:13Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/quarterly/img/vol4/all-hierarchy.png :) 2016-12-07T20:11:22Z aeth: Some key issues with clasp are https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/162 and https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/163 and https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/164 2016-12-07T20:11:31Z aeth: Coincidentally filed by the same person, in order, and set for the 1.0.0 milestone 2016-12-07T20:12:07Z jackdaniel: jasom: mocl isn't complete according to the author 2016-12-07T20:12:41Z tetero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-07T20:12:54Z warweasle: Or just write your own lisp, in lisp. 2016-12-07T20:12:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-07T20:13:21Z aeth: Oh, another issue with clasp that'll hurt non-server use of clasp (no Windows support): https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/133 2016-12-07T20:13:22Z jackdaniel: (defun repl (loop (print (eval (read))))) 2016-12-07T20:14:18Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh, you should write that down! 2016-12-07T20:14:34Z Xach: https://github.com/can3p/dpans-printer sounds neat. unfortunately there is no real code :~( 2016-12-07T20:15:22Z warweasle: Xach: It's more done than 3Dmacs. 2016-12-07T20:18:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-07T20:18:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T20:19:20Z jasom: jackdaniel: you neglected to set the * / + variables :P 2016-12-07T20:19:22Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T20:19:47Z jackdaniel: jasom: nobody said it has to be Common Lisp! :D 2016-12-07T20:20:04Z jackdaniel: or did he? 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2016-12-07T20:52:29Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: Macroexpand-dammit! 2016-12-07T20:53:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: warweasle: thanks. 2016-12-07T20:55:34Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T20:57:58Z safe joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:00:36Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:02:29Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:02:29Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2016-12-07T21:03:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:03:08Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:04:14Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:04:25Z Sergeeeek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:04:48Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:07:47Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:08:53Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:09:49Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-07T21:13:35Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T21:14:39Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:16:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, this should get more love: One notable 2016-12-07T21:16:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, http://pgc.com/commonlisp/ 2016-12-07T21:16:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: It claims to have a real time gc, which would make it the first (only?) free lisp with such. 2016-12-07T21:17:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, it was last updated October 19th... 2016-12-07T21:19:07Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:21:02Z bluezone: anyone see what the syntax problem is in my loop? http://ideone.com/7kEBCB 2016-12-07T21:21:13Z bluezone: It's the first time I write a loop in lisp 2016-12-07T21:21:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: you need a do before the cond 2016-12-07T21:22:18Z bluezone: I had tried that but it claims %EXPAND-FORM: (EQ ELT X) should be a lambda expression 2016-12-07T21:22:46Z bluezone: that's just my condition in cond, why should it be a lambda expression. I guess I made another syntax mistake 2016-12-07T21:22:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: You also have an extra parentheses in your cond: it should just be (cond ((eq ...)) (t ...)) 2016-12-07T21:22:58Z sjl: that's a problem inside the cond itself, you've got extra parens there 2016-12-07T21:23:21Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: wcl, yes 2016-12-07T21:23:26Z phoe: I was interested in it some time ago 2016-12-07T21:23:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: bluezone: Anyways, it's generally polite to format the code the way lispers expect before asking for help: parentheses shouldn't get their own line, two space indents and a couple other things. 2016-12-07T21:24:14Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Me voy) 2016-12-07T21:24:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Always put a space before an open parentheses. 2016-12-07T21:24:59Z bluezone: is the a text editor you use that can format it automatically ? 2016-12-07T21:25:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most lispers use emacs + slime, vim also has slimv that handles formatting 2016-12-07T21:25:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Other editors might have appropriate plugins, but I don't know of them. 2016-12-07T21:25:42Z bluezone: hmm 2016-12-07T21:25:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Someone might have a lisp library for automatically formatting code... 2016-12-07T21:26:13Z bluezone: I'm just lining up the closing parenthesis with their opening ones, otherwise I get too confused. Only just starting 2016-12-07T21:26:33Z Guest12607 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-07T21:27:30Z jasom: It looks like wcl is a CLTL1 implementation? 2016-12-07T21:28:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: not sure, I only just ran across it 2016-12-07T21:28:13Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:28:15Z jasom: bluezone: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent can autoindent if you aren't using emacs. 2016-12-07T21:28:36Z impulse is now known as Guest44690 2016-12-07T21:28:42Z reepca quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:30:14Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:30:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: it sounds like it's from 1992, at least, so it wouldn't be too surprising 2016-12-07T21:32:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: paste.lisp.org should have an option to reformat lisp submissions ... 2016-12-07T21:32:40Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2016-12-07T21:34:40Z Guest44690 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-07T21:35:30Z impulse-- joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:35:34Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-12-07T21:38:14Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:38:23Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:40:38Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:41:45Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:41:45Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2016-12-07T21:45:54Z bluezone: I present to you my beautiful class http://ideone.com/5UjF8K :) 2016-12-07T21:46:04Z ragepandemic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T21:49:36Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:50:50Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:50:51Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2016-12-07T21:51:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:51:55Z Xach: bluezone: is this for a classs or something? 2016-12-07T21:52:03Z bluezone: yeah :( 2016-12-07T21:54:16Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:54:17Z bluezone: Have to write the tests on paper too 2016-12-07T21:54:28Z bluezone hates school 2016-12-07T21:55:10Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:55:22Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:55:29Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:55:29Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2016-12-07T21:56:21Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T21:56:57Z Xach: bluezone: please do not setq variables that you did not introduce beforehand via let, or the lambda list, or some other binding form. or defvar/defparameter. 2016-12-07T21:57:31Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-07T21:57:42Z bluezone: what does setq do anyway? It's global or local? 2016-12-07T21:58:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: It sets the value of a symbol. Whether or not this has a local effect depends on the scope in which the symbol was defined. 2016-12-07T21:59:00Z bluezone: so what is the difference between setf and setq? 2016-12-07T21:59:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: setf works on places. 2016-12-07T21:59:30Z jasom: bluezone: setf is a complete superset of setq; there's not really any reason to use setq anymore. 2016-12-07T21:59:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: A place can be a symbol, but it can be other things to: like the location of an element in a hash-table 2016-12-07T21:59:59Z bluezone: hmm ok 2016-12-07T22:00:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, (setf (gethash :item hash-table) 2) sets the :item element of hash-table to 2 2016-12-07T22:01:28Z jasom: bluezone: (setf a b) and (setq a b) both do the same thing (a = b; for c-like syntax). (setf (aref x 2) b) however will be like x[2] = b; setq can't do that. 2016-12-07T22:01:54Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:02:28Z Xach: bluezone: are you allowed to use REMOVE? or are you limited to certain things to teach you how to do it on your own? 2016-12-07T22:02:52Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T22:03:41Z bluezone: depends on the question I guess. Sometimes they ask to implement a standard function on your own 2016-12-07T22:03:48Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-07T22:06:08Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-07T22:10:49Z seg joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:13:16Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:13:30Z bluezone: Is there any way to not execute a method call with the :before of the same method? I mean something similar to call-next-method in :around but instead it just halts and doesn't call the next method 2016-12-07T22:14:35Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:16:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could signal a condition 2016-12-07T22:16:22Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-07T22:18:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: And catch it in the :around method. 2016-12-07T22:19:07Z merlincorey joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:21:26Z seg joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:25:26Z igahena joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:25:49Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:26:33Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-12-07T22:27:37Z igahena left #lisp 2016-12-07T22:29:08Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T22:29:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:30:17Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-07T22:32:08Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-07T22:34:12Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T22:39:08Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-07T22:39:25Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-07T22:40:02Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-07T22:45:55Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T22:57:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:00:28Z S1ohy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:03:18Z pillton joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:03:56Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:04:38Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T23:05:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:05:24Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T23:06:13Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:07:02Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-07T23:07:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T23:07:38Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:07:49Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:08:12Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-07T23:08:18Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-12-07T23:08:40Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:11:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:11:14Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:12:44Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T23:13:07Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:17:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:18:57Z circ-user-lNHPq joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:21:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:23:31Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:24:02Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-07T23:28:53Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T23:31:58Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:42:10Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-07T23:48:08Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-07T23:48:51Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T23:51:38Z circ-user-lNHPq quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-07T23:53:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-07T23:53:32Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-07T23:54:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-07T23:56:51Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:02:36Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:04:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T00:04:23Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:05:47Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:06:39Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-08T00:08:23Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T00:08:52Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T00:11:49Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T00:17:39Z manuel___ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T00:19:46Z MrLawrence joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:20:04Z BusFactor1 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-08T00:20:20Z MrLawrence: Hello. I'm trying to learn Lisp. when using an if, how does one perform 2 things instead of just one when the condition is met or not met? 2016-12-08T00:21:09Z _death: generally you use COND in that case.. but you can always use PROGN 2016-12-08T00:21:47Z _death: (also see WHEN/UNLESS) 2016-12-08T00:22:07Z MrLawrence: I heard about lambda somewhere, how does that work? 2016-12-08T00:22:15Z pillton: Like _death says. You can do (if (test) (progn (then-1) (then-2)) (progn (else-1) (else-2))). 2016-12-08T00:22:52Z pillton: Can you be more specific? 2016-12-08T00:23:57Z Xach: pillton: lambda is cool, right? 2016-12-08T00:24:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (funcall (if (test) (lambda () ...) (lambda () ...))) :) 2016-12-08T00:24:22Z pillton: Xach: Yeah. 2016-12-08T00:24:36Z MrLawrence: so then isn't progn like lambda but taking no arguments? 2016-12-08T00:24:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, it's different 2016-12-08T00:24:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: progn just sequences operations, lambda defines a function 2016-12-08T00:24:59Z _death: lambda has an implicit progn 2016-12-08T00:25:31Z pillton: Well, you could think of it as (progn ...) <=> (funcall (lambda () ...)) 2016-12-08T00:27:32Z MrLawrence: oh I get it 2016-12-08T00:29:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T00:31:17Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:31:52Z pillton: Xach: I often ponder its awesomeness. 2016-12-08T00:32:44Z pillton: Xach: I like the macro. 2016-12-08T00:33:25Z _death: you can also have (if (test) ((lambda () ...))) then :D 2016-12-08T00:34:00Z pillton: Oh nice. I like those too. 2016-12-08T00:42:07Z MrLawrence: why does (unless (eq 1 1) 2 3) return nil ? 2016-12-08T00:42:38Z pillton: Use EQL. 2016-12-08T00:42:54Z Bike: numbers that are equal are sometimes not EQ. 2016-12-08T00:43:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Eq tests object identity, eql adds equality of characters and integers 2016-12-08T00:43:40Z MrLawrence: but (unless t 2 3) also returns nil 2016-12-08T00:44:01Z White_Flame: UNLESS is a differnt shape than IF 2016-12-08T00:44:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: (unless t ...) is (if (not t) (progn ...)) 2016-12-08T00:44:10Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-08T00:44:20Z White_Flame: (when test ...then) (unless test ...else) (if test then else) 2016-12-08T00:44:55Z White_Flame: the rest of the list in when/else is the form being processed. IF has 2 explicit positional terms 2016-12-08T00:46:54Z reepca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T00:47:09Z MrLawrence: I see thanks 2016-12-08T00:47:17Z White_Flame: if the WHEN test fails, or the UNLESS test passes, the whole form returns NIL 2016-12-08T00:47:41Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:47:57Z White_Flame: btw, when doing numeric comparisons you should use (= x y), not (eq x y) 2016-12-08T00:48:39Z tax joined #lisp 2016-12-08T00:57:54Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T00:58:58Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-08T01:03:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T01:10:05Z circ-user-QaADT joined #lisp 2016-12-08T01:14:03Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T01:19:04Z seg joined #lisp 2016-12-08T01:25:49Z bluezone: White_Flame: why 2016-12-08T01:26:29Z White_Flame: because eq tests object identity. If some numbers are boxed, they won't compare by value 2016-12-08T01:27:04Z bluezone: and eql checks object values? Can he use eql or equal? 2016-12-08T01:27:07Z White_Flame: = has special cases for all the mathy types of equality and such 2016-12-08T01:27:43Z White_Flame: eql extends eq to compare numbers and characters 2016-12-08T01:28:03Z White_Flame: but = is specific to numbers, so it should be used for numeric comparison 2016-12-08T01:29:16Z White_Flame: also, eql will not consider 0 equal to 0.0 2016-12-08T01:29:31Z White_Flame: or even 0.0s0 and 0.0d0 (assuming your platform supports distinguishing them) 2016-12-08T01:29:53Z White_Flame: eql is basically naive matching that understands boxed values 2016-12-08T01:30:20Z White_Flame: eq is basically a machine word comparison 2016-12-08T01:30:31Z White_Flame: = understands numeric equality 2016-12-08T01:31:52Z bluezone: kind of confused about all these 2016-12-08T01:32:33Z bluezone: = for numbers, eq to test two variables point to the same place in memory, eql or equal for everything else? 2016-12-08T01:33:31Z White_Flame: eq tests 2 machine words. So non-pointer literals that fit in a register can be compared, like small numbers 2016-12-08T01:33:52Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T01:34:07Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-08T01:34:20Z White_Flame: really, you shouldn't "default" to any given equality comparison. At each site, you should think about what kind of equality you need 2016-12-08T01:35:13Z White_Flame: the CLHS walks through all the specific cases & types the various equality operators work on 2016-12-08T01:36:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T01:38:31Z aeth: White_Flame: oops 2016-12-08T01:38:47Z aeth: I always assumed single-float was 0.0f0 vs. 0.0d0 2016-12-08T01:38:52Z aeth: I never knew about 0.0s0 2016-12-08T01:38:57Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-12-08T01:38:58Z White_Flame: f is default float format 2016-12-08T01:39:09Z _death: aeth: f is single-float.. s is short-float 2016-12-08T01:39:18Z White_Flame: well, then oops on me :) 2016-12-08T01:39:25Z White_Flame hasn't been in the details in a while 2016-12-08T01:40:16Z aeth: _death: Does any implementation actually use half-float as its short-float? I don't even think it's possible to do so and be conformant to the CLHS because: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm#short-float 2016-12-08T01:40:35Z White_Flame: ah, right, e signifies default floating point format 2016-12-08T01:40:53Z aeth: "Minimum Precision" "13 bits", "Minimum Exponent Size 5 bits"... vs the IEEE half-float: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-precision_floating-point_format 2016-12-08T01:41:01Z aeth: that looks like that uses 5 and 11 2016-12-08T01:41:31Z aeth: So short-float *cannot* be the IEEE half-float unless the CLHS is updated to reduce the minimum precision of short-float 2016-12-08T01:42:00Z aeth: Wow, I think I found the most concrete cannot-possibly-be-fixed-without-a-spec-update flaw in CL so far. 2016-12-08T01:42:26Z _death: I don't know what "half-float" is.. also, I don't know offhand of any implementation that uses distinct representations for short/single or long/double 2016-12-08T01:43:09Z aeth: _death: The IEEE half-precision floating-point format, binary16. I linked to it but not on its own line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-precision_floating-point_format 2016-12-08T01:43:25Z aeth: It *cannot* be short-float. 2016-12-08T01:43:42Z aeth: Any implementation that makes it short-float is out of conformance with the spec. 2016-12-08T01:44:03Z _death: aeth: do you know anything that makes use of half-float 2016-12-08T01:44:29Z aeth: Graphics 2016-12-08T01:44:44Z aeth: And IEEE 754-2008 2016-12-08T01:44:48Z _death: I mean software/hardware 2016-12-08T01:44:55Z aeth: All graphics cards? 2016-12-08T01:45:03Z White_Flame: so presumably there was an 18-bit float on whatever old iron, that fit the CLHS short float spec? 2016-12-08T01:45:33Z aeth: _death: I assume some programs that do graphics use half-float in places where they don't want to have to convert down to half-float to pass it to the GPU 2016-12-08T01:45:56Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T01:46:00Z aeth: But I think that's mostly a mobile thing. Modern consumer graphics cards are heavily optimized for single-float only... well, at least the nvidia ones. 2016-12-08T01:46:39Z aeth: the GeForce 1080 has 8873 GFLOPs with single precision, 257 with double precision, and 128 with half-precision! 2016-12-08T01:46:48Z aeth: s/8873/8228/ 2016-12-08T01:47:24Z _death: aeth: interesting.. so it looks like a recent modification of the ieee754 standard 2016-12-08T01:47:36Z aeth: It looks like consumer Radeons have identical GFLOPs in single and half, though. 2016-12-08T01:47:47Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T01:47:57Z aeth: AMD has been much better at giving compute GPU features to the consumer cards 2016-12-08T01:48:06Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-12-08T01:48:36Z _death: so, it doesn't look like a flaw in CL spec, but a flaw in IEEE754-2008 :) 2016-12-08T01:48:46Z White_Flame: yeah, and I thought that double-precision gflops were roughly half the single-precision 2016-12-08T01:49:25Z _death: also, since CL implementations generally run on the CPU, I don't think anyone cares :) 2016-12-08T01:49:29Z aeth: _death: It's more like a flaw in the CL approach of chiseling the spec in stone. :-p 2016-12-08T01:49:33Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-12-08T01:49:51Z aeth: When outside standards update, the written-in-stone spec can't. 2016-12-08T01:49:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I dunno, maybe it's a flaw with GPU vendors . . . 2016-12-08T01:50:00Z krwq: hey, is there some kind of wrapper for glut which would display compiler errors on screen or somewhere else - currently whenever i get an error it leaves the main loop and before i start implementing that logic myself i'd like to know if something like that already exists - i'd like to do some live coding 2016-12-08T01:50:24Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Afaik, there are machine learning applications (i.e. AI!!!!) that only need half-precision floats. 2016-12-08T01:50:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, those tell numbers basically mean that there isn't really a good reason to use half-precision on a GPU 2016-12-08T01:50:50Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Nvidia wants you to pay much, much more for GPUs that are more useful for computations 2016-12-08T01:51:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: They have lower precision and 1/80 the performance 2016-12-08T01:51:16Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-08T01:51:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: On any card I would conceivably buy 2016-12-08T01:51:43Z aeth: Those are the GeForce numbers. The Tesla numbers are probably different. Unfortunately, Wikipedia's table doesn't give the GFLOPs for half precision here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Tesla 2016-12-08T01:52:45Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T01:55:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-08T01:55:18Z aeth: Or maybe people who use half-precision just use AMDs 2016-12-08T01:55:49Z aeth: AMD already dominates the integer niche (e.g. cryptocurrencies that haven't been taken over by FPGAs or ASICs yet) 2016-12-08T01:59:32Z aeth: GPUs are messy, anyway. Maybe we'll all be using 4096-core RISC-V CPUs as co-processors in the near future. 2016-12-08T02:01:41Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-08T02:02:32Z MrLawrence quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T02:06:18Z dcluna quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-705-2e6c8d9 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-08T02:06:27Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T02:10:29Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-08T02:12:04Z aeth: Speaking of RISC-V, clasp will probably be needed to bootstrap another CL to RISC-V because llvm has already been ported. 2016-12-08T02:12:35Z dcluna joined #lisp 2016-12-08T02:24:42Z kang0 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T02:25:17Z kang0: Which services do you host on your devices? 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examples of Data Structures/Algorithms "general knowledge" questions that are amenable to multiple-choice testing? 2016-12-08T10:39:33Z beach: Xof: asymptotic complexity. 2016-12-08T10:40:10Z beach: "What is the asymptotic complexity of each of the following operations?"... "O(n), O(log n), O(n log n)" 2016-12-08T10:40:30Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-12-08T10:41:17Z Grue`: but if something is O(log n) then it's O(n) too 2016-12-08T10:41:22Z beach: Which of the following operations have a worst-case asymptotic complexity of O(n) (several answers may be right): ... 2016-12-08T10:42:08Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T10:42:46Z beach: Make that Ω(n) then; whatever the convention is. 2016-12-08T10:43:16Z Xof: yes 2016-12-08T10:43:17Z jackdaniel: "most accurate asymptotic complexity" would do the trick 2016-12-08T10:43:28Z Xof: I have a bunch of asymptotic complexity questions for sorting and searching 2016-12-08T10:43:45Z Xof: good to know that I have anticipated the first response :) 2016-12-08T10:44:36Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-08T10:44:59Z beach: "Given the following pseudo-code, what does it do?" "Find the first occurrence of x in a tree", "Find the last occurrence of x in a tree", "Nothing sensible". 2016-12-08T10:45:29Z Xof: yes! Nice idea 2016-12-08T10:45:43Z Xof: thank you, that gives me plenty of work to do for the rest of the day :) 2016-12-08T10:47:09Z beach: "The following code searches for the occurrence of an item X in the list L. What are the restrictions that the elements in L must respect in order for the code to work" "The list has to be sorted in increasing order", "The list has to be sorted in decreasing order", "The algorithm works no matter the order of the elements of the list", "The algorithm does not work at all" 2016-12-08T10:47:34Z beach: OK, off you go. :) 2016-12-08T10:51:40Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T10:54:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-08T10:56:21Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T10:59:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:07:13Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:12:31Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:15:34Z woef joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:23:52Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T11:27:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:27:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:27:54Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:28:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T11:28:05Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:28:05Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2016-12-08T11:28:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-12-08T11:28:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:28:07Z jdz joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:40:26Z MolluskEmpire quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:45:53Z Trenif joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:48:16Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:49:19Z Einwq quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:50:15Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:51:43Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:52:45Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:53:39Z xaotuk1 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:55:12Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T11:55:13Z xaotuk1 is now known as xaotuk 2016-12-08T11:56:00Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-12-08T11:59:44Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:05:24Z foom joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:10:58Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T12:11:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:17:30Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T12:18:03Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T12:18:32Z xaotuk1 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:19:44Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T12:20:07Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T12:20:07Z xaotuk1 is now known as xaotuk 2016-12-08T12:20:16Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:25:28Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T12:34:20Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:55:12Z switchy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T12:56:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:58:28Z malice` joined #lisp 2016-12-08T12:59:52Z switchy joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:01:19Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:02:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T13:03:10Z dcluna joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:03:59Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T13:07:13Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:17:52Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:21:16Z younder: I have fixed a few problems with linedit causing it to crash. I have also changed it so a previous-command gives the entire sexp, not just the last line. Anyone interested in me incorporation it? 2016-12-08T13:22:08Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T13:23:11Z Xach: younder: Send it to the author. 2016-12-08T13:24:32Z younder: I was thinking along the lines, making a new branch. Then asking 10 or so people to test it. Then, when requests and error corrections are completed, incorporating it into the main branch. 2016-12-08T13:25:45Z younder: Xach, will do 2016-12-08T13:26:30Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:33:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:34:52Z dcluna quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-705-2e6c8d9 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-08T13:36:05Z switchy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-08T13:38:04Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:38:49Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:38:49Z switchy joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:41:22Z younder: Motication: Vim actually has a decent Lisp mode and it is easy to load. SBCL's command line leaves a lot to be desired. People expect GNU read-line functionality. If given that VIM's inferior mode shell would work a treat. 2016-12-08T13:44:38Z younder: I know from Haskell that there are a lot of VIM aficionados that would abandon the language simply because it doesn't support Wim development. For better or worse, this might bring some of to Lisp. 2016-12-08T13:45:49Z younder: of ^them ^ to 2016-12-08T13:45:52Z Glitchy expects readline functionality, have had to alias sbcl to rlwrap sbcl 2016-12-08T13:46:34Z manuel__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T13:47:23Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:48:31Z travv0 left #lisp 2016-12-08T13:53:57Z drmeister: younder: How do you load the lisp mode in vim? 2016-12-08T13:55:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:55:57Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:56:20Z drmeister: younder: Rather - which lisp mode are you using in vim? 2016-12-08T13:57:09Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T13:57:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:58:17Z younder: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/333587 2016-12-08T13:58:35Z younder: Basically syntastic 2016-12-08T13:58:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-08T13:59:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-12-08T14:01:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T14:01:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:04:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:04:25Z papachan_ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:06:56Z papachan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T14:07:03Z papachan__ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:09:13Z papachan_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:12:54Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-08T14:19:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:21:37Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:22:01Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:23:18Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T14:23:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:23:24Z bluezone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:26:27Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:26:51Z younder: Syntasic is cool, but far reaching. Not so cool if you have hours setting up your .vimrc file exactly to your liking. But for me it (install of 16.04 Ubuntu) greatly improves the fell of the editor for MANY languages. 2016-12-08T14:27:12Z younder: s/fell/feel/ 2016-12-08T14:28:30Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-08T14:29:15Z younder: Note. I DO use EMACS, mostly.. 2016-12-08T14:32:05Z bluezone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:32:14Z Xach feels a little bad about cl-directed-graph and cl-digraph going into the same update 2016-12-08T14:33:05Z varjag: heh 2016-12-08T14:34:00Z drmeister: For those of you watching clasp - an update. 2016-12-08T14:35:02Z warweasle: Xach: I didn't know about those. I need to look then up because I might be doing something similar. 2016-12-08T14:35:09Z Xach: They are new 2016-12-08T14:35:40Z drmeister: In the last couple of weeks thanks to Bike, beach, jackdaniel and others, Cleavir has gotten a basic type inference engine, type checking and declares are now generating type checking code. 2016-12-08T14:35:54Z drmeister: All of these improvements are running in clasp. 2016-12-08T14:36:03Z circ-user-QaADT joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:37:21Z dlowe: Impressive. 2016-12-08T14:38:02Z warweasle: Xach: Is there a way to "walk" through a graph of overlapping states to find the fastest route through all of them? 2016-12-08T14:38:17Z Xach: warweasle: I don't know, sorry. 2016-12-08T14:38:46Z younder: warweasle, That is a NP-complete problem. 2016-12-08T14:39:12Z warweasle: younder: Cool...what does that mean? 2016-12-08T14:39:14Z drmeister: The best code that cclasp generates is still about 2x slower than that generated by SBCL - but we have a framework now to make improvements and optimizations. 2016-12-08T14:39:44Z younder: warweasle, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-completeness 2016-12-08T14:39:45Z warweasle never really understood P or NP... 2016-12-08T14:39:51Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:41:01Z warweasle: OH, nondeterministic polynomial time. 2016-12-08T14:41:47Z younder: warweasle, Basically it is not do-able in general in a reasonable amount of time (exponential growth) or possibly at all (halting problem). 2016-12-08T14:42:12Z varjag: any known ansi cl implementations of goertzel algorithm out there? 2016-12-08T14:42:16Z varjag: or should i roll my own 2016-12-08T14:42:31Z beach: warweasle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZyT9bayf8o 2016-12-08T14:42:42Z beach: [about P and NP] 2016-12-08T14:43:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:43:42Z warweasle: younder: So I just need to prove P=NP and I can dynamically create my render loop. Got it. 2016-12-08T14:44:01Z younder: warweasle, good luck ;) 2016-12-08T14:45:47Z papachan__ is now known as papachan 2016-12-08T14:46:38Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:47:33Z wty joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:47:54Z younder: warweasle, That is not to say you cant find a GOOD approximation. (Best 10 %) The last time I used a Metropolis algorithm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis%E2%80%93Hastings_algorithm 2016-12-08T14:48:17Z varjag: ok after updating sbcl from git master the gc invariant bug is quietly gone 2016-12-08T14:48:19Z varjag: *phew* 2016-12-08T14:49:10Z fausin joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:50:26Z wty left #lisp 2016-12-08T14:50:33Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:50:44Z mykon: what? lisp for web applications?? 2016-12-08T14:51:02Z mykon: doesn't strike me as exciting. 2016-12-08T14:51:24Z mykon: flip214: what would be a web based app in lisp? 2016-12-08T14:51:31Z joga: web applications are mehh :I 2016-12-08T14:51:48Z flip214: mykon: something that gets accessed via http? 2016-12-08T14:51:55Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-12-08T14:54:04Z fausin left #lisp 2016-12-08T14:54:10Z Arathnim quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-08T14:57:26Z younder: HTML is communicated through a CGI Common Gateway Interface). As such any language can interface. Including Lisp. It is neither better nor worse at this than most. 2016-12-08T14:59:03Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T15:00:29Z younder: I'ts a bit more work setting up than in Ruby on Rails, or PHP. 2016-12-08T15:00:38Z Xach: younder: That is now how it usually works in Common Lisp. 2016-12-08T15:00:43Z Xach: "not how", rather. 2016-12-08T15:00:47Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:01:05Z warweasle: Is mod-ecs still around? 2016-12-08T15:02:40Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:02:53Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T15:03:17Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:04:11Z younder: I'ts a bit more work setting up than in Ruby on Rails, or PHP. 2016-12-08T15:06:38Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:06:43Z circ-user-QaADT quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:08:28Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:08:40Z ragepandemic: since we're on topic, i was looking around for web libraries/frameworks, can anyone recommend anything noob friendly? 2016-12-08T15:10:41Z younder: uiop? 2016-12-08T15:12:07Z Xach: UIOP is not a web library or framework. 2016-12-08T15:12:21Z younder: Xach, sorry, misread 2016-12-08T15:13:26Z malice`: ragepandemic: I'm nnot doing any web development, but last time I wanted to do something I found caveman2 2016-12-08T15:13:35Z malice`: ragepandemic: you can try this tutorial: http://ahungry.com/blog/2015-07-07-Writing-a-Common-Lisp-Web-App.html 2016-12-08T15:13:46Z malice`: and see if it fits your "noob friendly" definition. I found it rather simple 2016-12-08T15:13:59Z Xach: ragepandemic: http://quickdocs.org/search?q=web%20framework has some stuff 2016-12-08T15:14:16Z Xach: I can't review any of them, sorry. I wound up rolling my own stuff. 2016-12-08T15:14:56Z ragepandemic: i'll check out caveman2, The tutorial seems pretty good 2016-12-08T15:15:01Z ragepandemic: thanks 2016-12-08T15:15:45Z SumoSudo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-12-08T15:18:06Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:18:13Z felideon: Xach: the number on the right is the number of times people have quickloaded that lib? 2016-12-08T15:18:49Z Xach: felideon: if that's what it's meant to be, I'm afraid it's out of date - i haven't published those stats in a while. 2016-12-08T15:18:55Z Xach: I don't run that site, so I can't say for sure. 2016-12-08T15:19:10Z felideon: ah, gotcha 2016-12-08T15:21:13Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:22:21Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:24:17Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:28:57Z woef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T15:29:24Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T15:29:24Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T15:29:52Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:30:39Z Blkt joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:31:04Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:31:52Z bluezone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:31:58Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:34:48Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:35:02Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:35:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:36:56Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:38:23Z glitch_ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:39:14Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:41:54Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:44:38Z ioa joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:45:03Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-12-08T15:47:23Z ioa: Hi, I'm trying to push my common-lisp hunchentoot based app (https://github.com/ioannad/jeffrey) to heroku and i get a build error which includes: .........bordeaux-threads-v0.8.5/bordeaux-threads.asd: You need ASDF >= 3.1 to load this system correctly. 2016-12-08T15:47:23Z ioa: But in my ccl repl i get: (asdf:asdf-version) "3.1.7.40", any ideas why it seems to think my asdf is not new enough? 2016-12-08T15:48:38Z kamog quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-08T15:51:50Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T15:54:37Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-08T15:58:18Z drmeister: Brain-f*rt - is there a way to get the list of classes that inherit from a class? 2016-12-08T16:00:21Z drmeister: clos:class-direct-subclasses and then I apply it recursively? 2016-12-08T16:01:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:01:58Z Xach: ioa: I don't know about heroku, sorry, but is there an easy way to see what is running in that environment? 2016-12-08T16:02:01Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:04:30Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-08T16:06:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T16:07:30Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:08:13Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T16:09:14Z ioa: Xach I searched the log in more detail and found out it's loading asdf from "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quickstart/asdf.lisp", which is version 2.26. So it seems there is an incompatibility with quicklisp and either heroku or the buildpack for heroku i'm using. Either way, I just found another server to host my app, thanks for answering. 2016-12-08T16:09:30Z glitch_ left #lisp 2016-12-08T16:11:20Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:12:59Z jackdaniel: ioa: it seems that you have some upstream asdf release loaded automagically on your system, I doubt CCL has updated to 3.1.7.40 since six days ago 2016-12-08T16:14:37Z ioa: jackdaniel: that is possible, I did my best to update my asdf today. So you think I caused some sort of conflict? 2016-12-08T16:14:55Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:15:10Z jackdaniel: as far as I understand, heroku is 3rd party build system (which has nothing to do with your host) 2016-12-08T16:15:13Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:15:35Z jackdaniel: so your local asdf-version has nothing to do with the one on heroku 2016-12-08T16:15:51Z jackdaniel: also, is it reporting problem with building on CCL or maybe for instance on CLISP? 2016-12-08T16:18:23Z ioa: Heroku hosts small apps for some hours a month for free, I was planning to use it for testing. Thankfully a better solution has just come along. It was reporting a problem with building on ccl (config: CL_IMPL=ccl) 2016-12-08T16:19:25Z holycow: /SET autostick_split_windows OFF 2016-12-08T16:20:33Z jackdaniel: ioa: it may have CCL built without ASDF, or some old CCL (I would bet on the former) 2016-12-08T16:20:37Z jackdaniel: heroku that is 2016-12-08T16:22:01Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:22:01Z klltkr quit (Changing host) 2016-12-08T16:22:01Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:23:27Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T16:23:34Z holycow quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-08T16:25:06Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:27:09Z hugo_dc joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:29:03Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:29:27Z z3r0_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-08T16:32:05Z circ-user-QaADT joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:32:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T16:35:15Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2016-12-08T16:35:32Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:37:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:37:53Z IPXSam joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:38:13Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:38:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T16:38:23Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2016-12-08T16:39:38Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:40:11Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:41:34Z jasom: ioa: for future reference, asdf is completely upgradable, so you can always load a newer adsf as part of your build process. 2016-12-08T16:42:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:42:03Z jasom: ioa: or just modify the lisp buildpack for heroku to have a newer version for that matter. 2016-12-08T16:42:26Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-08T16:43:55Z malice` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T16:44:28Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-08T16:45:13Z ioa: @jackdaniel @jasom, thanks for the hints, i gotta get prepared for uploading to the new server now, cheers 2016-12-08T16:45:13Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-08T16:45:26Z ioa left #lisp 2016-12-08T16:46:47Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T16:47:36Z holycow-2 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:48:19Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:49:01Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:50:36Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:52:30Z kang0 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:53:30Z kang0 left #lisp 2016-12-08T16:53:44Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-12-08T16:58:34Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-08T17:01:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:02:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:05:16Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T17:05:24Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:06:13Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:06:17Z shrdlu68: Is there a way to enter the debugger and have access to the environment? 2016-12-08T17:07:02Z rumbler31: while code is running, in slime, you can send emacs an interrupt that it passes to the lisp image, C-c C-c 2016-12-08T17:07:35Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T17:07:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T17:08:35Z Xach: shrdlu68: you can inspect local variables (depending on the debug level of the code that landed you there) 2016-12-08T17:08:38Z rumbler31: i'm trying to use interpol, but it seems like when I go to redefine a function where I inserted the #? macro, the operation complains that #\? is an undefined character of the #\# dispatch macro, but when I invoke the functionality from the repl it works 2016-12-08T17:09:19Z rumbler31: I should also mention that I invoked enable-interpol-syntax on the repl, so maybe the change it makes isn't seen by... everything? 2016-12-08T17:09:58Z shrdlu68: Xach: Ah, cool. 2016-12-08T17:11:33Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T17:12:21Z rumbler31: (inspect... is a great tool.. I wish i'd discovered it sooner 2016-12-08T17:13:22Z shrdlu68: Xach: Uh, debugger level one, got here through an error condition. Don't see to be able to access the local variables. 2016-12-08T17:13:23Z Xach: I haven't used "raw" inspect much. The slime inspector is pretty great. 2016-12-08T17:13:40Z Xach: shrdlu68: Normally you would see them by moving the cursor the the frame and using "t" to show them. 2016-12-08T17:13:40Z ragepandemic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T17:13:51Z Xach: shrdlu68: Is there anything there? 2016-12-08T17:14:25Z shrdlu68: Xach: Cursor? Do you mean in slime? 2016-12-08T17:14:28Z Xach: Yes. 2016-12-08T17:14:39Z Xach: Out of slime, the technique varies by implementation. 2016-12-08T17:15:09Z shrdlu68: Okay, let me load up slime. 2016-12-08T17:15:36Z shrdlu68: I tend to use M-X run-lisp more than slime. 2016-12-08T17:15:51Z rumbler31: also note that I use ccl and i've noticed that I don't see local variables all the time and I don't understand why yet. 2016-12-08T17:16:11Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T17:16:13Z Xach: I believe it has to do with the debug level. 2016-12-08T17:16:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:16:57Z Arathnim: shrdlu68: You probably need a higher debug level than 1. 2016-12-08T17:16:59Z dlowe: rumbler31: try compiling a function with C-u C-c C-c and see if you can see the variables in that function 2016-12-08T17:17:14Z Xach: Does that work in CCL? 2016-12-08T17:17:16Z Xach hasn't tried 2016-12-08T17:17:26Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:17:26Z rumbler31: dlow: I'll try that next time 2016-12-08T17:18:05Z dlowe: Xach: I don't know. Seems like it should if anything works 2016-12-08T17:18:23Z rumbler31: i'm currently blocking on trying to figure out how to make cl-interpol work 2016-12-08T17:19:21Z Xach: rumbler31: how are you redefining the function? 2016-12-08T17:19:36Z dlowe: at the top of the file in which you wish to use cl-interpol, put the enable-interpol-syntax form at the top 2016-12-08T17:19:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:21:07Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T17:21:51Z rumbler31: hmm, compiling the whole file seems to not yield any complaints, but C-c C-c on the form alone doesn't seem to do the trick 2016-12-08T17:23:28Z Xach: I think I have successfully used named-readtables with in-readtable at the top of the file to teach slime which readtable to use for C-c C-c. 2016-12-08T17:23:35Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T17:23:35Z Xach: But it's been quite a while. 2016-12-08T17:24:11Z rumbler31: hmm ok. 2016-12-08T17:24:23Z rumbler31: compiling the whole file should be enough for now 2016-12-08T17:24:31Z rumbler31: but I think I see where you're going 2016-12-08T17:25:39Z rumbler31: hmm or I guess it isn't working 2016-12-08T17:26:13Z rumbler31: C-c M-k doesn't seem to be enough for the changes I've made to the function to be picked up when later invoked on the repl 2016-12-08T17:28:42Z mnoonan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T17:39:34Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:44:50Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T17:45:31Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:45:48Z shrdlu68: Xach: It seems the local variables available are those passed to the function in the current frame only. 2016-12-08T17:46:03Z Xach: shrdlu68: That depends on the debug level. 2016-12-08T17:46:08Z Xach: shrdlu68: and the implementation. 2016-12-08T17:46:26Z shrdlu68: In slime, that is. 2016-12-08T17:47:04Z shrdlu68: I'm on sbcl, debug level 1. 2016-12-08T17:47:40Z shrdlu68: I'm issuing a #'break, hoping to examine the values of the lexical environment. 2016-12-08T17:48:14Z Xach: shrdlu68: with a higher debug level you will get more detail. 2016-12-08T17:48:33Z Xach: debug 3 usually has a lot of local variables (but not always all of them) 2016-12-08T17:49:35Z shrdlu68: How do I enter into a higher debug level? I know causing a condition in the current debug level causes an increment in the debug level, but I'm not sure whether that's what I should be doing. 2016-12-08T17:49:57Z rumbler31: i think you're confused about debug levels 2016-12-08T17:50:11Z shrdlu68: Haha me too. 2016-12-08T17:50:32Z rumbler31: Xach is referring to (declare (optimize (debug 3... or exactly what and where that should be I'm not certain 2016-12-08T17:50:44Z shrdlu68: Well it does say "0 to goback to debug level 1"... 2016-12-08T17:50:48Z rumbler31: you are referring to what happens when you get thrown into the debugger 2016-12-08T17:51:04Z rumbler31: you are 1 level deep into the debugger 2016-12-08T17:51:06Z shrdlu68: Oh, now I feel like an idiot, hehe. 2016-12-08T17:51:23Z Xach: Ah. You can use C-u C-c C-c to temporarily compile a defun with debug optimization setting 3 2016-12-08T17:51:51Z rumbler31: as in, you are currently debugging what happened with your code. If, while in a debug level, something you do throws some other condition, you will be thrown into a debugger where you get to play with the context of the new condition 2016-12-08T17:51:52Z circ-user-QaADT quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-08T17:52:31Z Xach: I made a video! https://vimeo.com/194845103 2016-12-08T17:52:39Z Xach: http://lispblog.xach.com/ has a transcript. 2016-12-08T17:52:43Z Xach: It's for Quicklisp support. 2016-12-08T17:52:55Z shrdlu68: I should probably declare (declaim?) level 3 at the top since I'm debugging. 2016-12-08T17:53:25Z rumbler31: I would start with Xach's suggestion of just recompiling the function for which you'd like to see locals and see what happens 2016-12-08T17:56:41Z jasom: rumbler31: I just compile the whole file; I've never really used C-c C-c 2016-12-08T17:57:30Z jasom: there are too many "gotchas" with C-c C-c (readtables, inline functions &c.) 2016-12-08T17:58:23Z rlatimore quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T17:59:06Z shrdlu68: Recompiling the function works, at least. I see everything, all the little evil buggy details. 2016-12-08T17:59:38Z jasom: Xach: glad to see you got matching funding! Just donated. 2016-12-08T17:59:40Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-12-08T17:59:45Z Xach: Thanks! 2016-12-08T18:02:05Z jasom: quicklisp has saved me 100s of hours of work since it was first released, so thank you :) 2016-12-08T18:02:43Z circ-user-lNHPq joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:03:28Z rumbler31: likewise donated. I came to CL after QL was up, can't imagine the amount of time saved... 2016-12-08T18:03:38Z rumbler31: jasom: thank you 2016-12-08T18:04:38Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-12-08T18:04:41Z jasom: rumbler31: I should note that's not typical; a lot of people use C-c C-c. I think I know one other person who avoids it like I do. 2016-12-08T18:05:44Z jasom: and the inlining issue is a non-issue with sbcl since I'm pretty sure sbcl never oportunistically inlines functions, even when the spec would allow it to. 2016-12-08T18:05:54Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T18:08:07Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb2 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-08T18:09:08Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:10:07Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:13:53Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-12-08T18:19:10Z rlatimore quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-08T18:30:07Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-08T18:30:37Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:34:52Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:36:38Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:41:23Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T18:41:41Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:42:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T18:44:16Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:44:18Z Aven: wow 2016-12-08T18:44:25Z Aven: this language is used? 2016-12-08T18:44:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Google even uses it . . . 2016-12-08T18:45:56Z Aven: If my parenthesis button is broken, I'm screwed right? 2016-12-08T18:47:48Z Xach: Aven: this is not a lisp joke channel 2016-12-08T18:48:50Z Aven: Xach :( 2016-12-08T18:49:19Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:49:30Z _death: jasom: I rarely use C-c C-c... usually I use C-M-x 2016-12-08T18:50:11Z terpri joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:50:32Z seg_ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:51:08Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:53:01Z k-stz joined #lisp 2016-12-08T18:53:06Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T18:54:50Z younder: This beautiful laguage is indeed used 2016-12-08T18:55:34Z younder: And it wil continue to be used as long as people care about it 2016-12-08T18:56:27Z younder: And I think that willl be a long time 2016-12-08T18:56:48Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:00:13Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T19:05:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:07:38Z warweasle: C-M-x doesn't do anything in my emacs. 2016-12-08T19:07:59Z cyberlard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T19:11:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T19:11:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:11:59Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:12:17Z younder: warweasle, Nor in mine. Should it? 2016-12-08T19:13:09Z younder: warweasle, Make no mistake I know my Emacs. What do you want? 2016-12-08T19:13:37Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:13:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Someone above mentioned using C-M-x for compiling or evaluating lisp cod 2016-12-08T19:13:56Z Arathnim: It's the default for slime-eval-defun, _death mentioned it. 2016-12-08T19:14:47Z IPXSam: Is Lisp side effect free ? 2016-12-08T19:14:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: No 2016-12-08T19:17:00Z younder: No language is. Haskell is the closest. But to make it useful you use monads which have side effects. 2016-12-08T19:20:03Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T19:22:20Z neoncontrails quit 2016-12-08T19:22:51Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T19:23:49Z drdo: Which package do I want for pattern matching these days? 2016-12-08T19:23:50Z younder: Half of haskell is about them monads 2016-12-08T19:24:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: drdo: people talk about optima 2016-12-08T19:25:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want prolog-style matching, there's gambol, screamer and cl-unification 2016-12-08T19:26:35Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:26:44Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T19:27:51Z younder: fiddlerwoaroof, all old school. But then there wouldn't be any new. Nothing new has happened 2016-12-08T19:33:31Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:34:50Z younder: I't not CL. It's the world. There are new areas like Computer visin and Machine learning, But that old pattern matching thing has been lead to it's conclusion. 2016-12-08T19:35:32Z younder: Corrrect me if I am wrong. 2016-12-08T19:36:11Z drdo: fiddlerwoaroof: Do I get nice quasiquoted patterns? 2016-12-08T19:36:41Z varjag: younder: it's simply not where the money is now 2016-12-08T19:36:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: drdo: I don't know, I haven't actually used any of the libraries I mentioned, I've been happy with destructuring-bind, etc. 2016-12-08T19:36:49Z varjag: it hasn't been led to any conclusion 2016-12-08T19:37:32Z varjag: all of ml/ai research is like that 2016-12-08T19:37:36Z varjag: initial progress 2016-12-08T19:37:42Z varjag: then plateau is reached 2016-12-08T19:37:53Z travv0 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:38:00Z varjag: then it's unhip until the next breakthrough 2016-12-08T19:38:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: drdo: https://github.com/m2ym/optima it's basically a fancy case statement. 2016-12-08T19:38:49Z drdo: I know what pattern matching is, I'm just asking about these libraries :) 2016-12-08T19:38:57Z younder: varjag, you are probaly right 2016-12-08T19:39:30Z drdo: destructuring-bind is only useful if you already know the structure beforehand 2016-12-08T19:40:18Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T19:41:22Z drdo: Hmm, I actually don't know how quasiquotation works in CL 2016-12-08T19:41:41Z drdo: Are there special forms corresponding to the abbreviations? 2016-12-08T19:41:49Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:43:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not ure exactly what you mean, OPTIMA:MATCH basically looks at the car of each subform and treats it as a description of the element to match, so (property :a x) matches a plist value stored under the key :A 2016-12-08T19:48:05Z drdo: fiddlerwoaroof: Turns out quasiquotation doesn't appear to be well-defined in CL 2016-12-08T19:48:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: It basically just is a syntactic shortcut for constructing lists in CL 2016-12-08T19:48:41Z drdo: That's the problem 2016-12-08T19:48:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are you coming from scheme or something? 2016-12-08T19:49:07Z drdo: There are is no actual standard translation of the reader abbreviations into special forms 2016-12-08T19:49:21Z drdo: So you can't write pattern match rules nicely 2016-12-08T19:49:49Z drdo: Apparently the proposed solution is to modify the reader with something like fare-quasiquote 2016-12-08T19:50:09Z younder: ahh 2016-12-08T19:50:24Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-08T19:50:40Z Arathnim: They get turned into implementation-specific macros. sb-int:quasiquote for sbcl. 2016-12-08T19:50:53Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:51:03Z drdo: Would be nice to have some standard updates 2016-12-08T19:51:46Z younder: drdo I don't think it has been high on the list. 2016-12-08T19:51:59Z drdo: younder: What list? 2016-12-08T19:52:14Z drdo: No one is directing CL, there is no list 2016-12-08T19:52:27Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:53:10Z younder: drdo, A conceptual 'not real' popularity list. 2016-12-08T19:54:05Z fiddlerwoaroof doesn't really understood why people want to update the standard for problems that existing libraries solve portably. 2016-12-08T19:54:29Z drdo: fiddlerwoaroof: Really? You don't believe in fixing problems? 2016-12-08T19:54:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: It isn't really a problem 2016-12-08T19:54:51Z drdo: It is actually 2016-12-08T19:55:03Z drdo: There are lots of little problems like this one 2016-12-08T19:55:08Z drdo: with CL 2016-12-08T19:55:13Z younder: Never been a problem to me. ;) 2016-12-08T19:55:30Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:55:43Z klltkr quit (Changing host) 2016-12-08T19:55:43Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:55:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a balance between standardization and giving implementations room to try optimizations 2016-12-08T19:56:20Z Arathnim: I've been thinking of writing a prototype matching library that uses lexical information to detect unbound symbols, so guards can be omitted, which also simplifies and/not/or, since those would just be the standard macros. 2016-12-08T19:56:26Z drdo: fiddlerwoaroof: It's not about optimisation 2016-12-08T19:56:32Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-08T19:56:40Z drdo: The standard can be changed to allow for *more* optimisation too 2016-12-08T19:56:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can fix your problem with a custom readtable 2016-12-08T19:56:52Z younder: We all have our different programming styles. I am sorry if the current standard gnisses against yours. 2016-12-08T19:56:55Z drdo: fiddlerwoaroof: You can fix lots of things, of course 2016-12-08T19:57:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if you need a predictable quasiquote expansion, the standard gives you that option 2016-12-08T19:57:21Z drdo: But it would be nicer if they were already without issue standardly 2016-12-08T19:57:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: But 99% of the programs people write don't actually need this. 2016-12-08T19:58:13Z drdo: So what? It's still a good thing 2016-12-08T19:58:33Z drdo: Standards do guide people's decisions. Being *possible* isn't good enough 2016-12-08T19:58:36Z varjag: and that's how your 600 page standard becomes 6000 page standard 2016-12-08T19:59:12Z younder: The standard is still the standard. Defined since 1994. For beter or worse we are stuck with it. 2016-12-08T19:59:28Z drdo: That is precisely the problem 2016-12-08T19:59:31Z younder: better 2016-12-08T19:59:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like being able to compile code from 20 years ago because we haven't had major synctactical changes 2016-12-08T19:59:50Z younder: drdo, that is exactly the strength 2016-12-08T20:00:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: In a couple years, the 1000s of lines of python 2 I've written probably won't run on any supported version of python 2016-12-08T20:01:04Z drdo: fiddlerwoaroof: You have to balance backwards compat against improvements 2016-12-08T20:01:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The nice thing about lisp is that improvements don't require updates to the standard 2016-12-08T20:01:38Z varjag: i agree with the sentiment that things which can be done portably within the spec are best left to libraries 2016-12-08T20:01:41Z drdo: Clearly the long-term solution to any technological problem can't be "we are stuck with this standard forever" 2016-12-08T20:01:44Z varjag: cl has certain redundancy already 2016-12-08T20:01:50Z varjag: car vs first and so on 2016-12-08T20:02:18Z drdo: varjag: Those are actual non-issues 2016-12-08T20:02:24Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:02:25Z drdo: I'm talking about fundamental things 2016-12-08T20:02:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: The standard doesn't even require quasiquote to expand to a cons, for that matter 2016-12-08T20:03:03Z drdo: This particular problem would be really easy to solve 2016-12-08T20:03:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: It could generate anything that can be used at macroexpansion time to generate a list 2016-12-08T20:03:25Z drdo: Just have quasiquote, unquote and unquote-splice or whatever be special forms 2016-12-08T20:03:36Z younder: To digress Haskell has the opposite problem. It is updated every several years. As a consequence programs written 5 years ago don't run today. 2016-12-08T20:03:38Z drdo: And translate the reader abbrevs to those 2016-12-08T20:03:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, for example, it could probably just store a string and delay expansion until the macro is used. 2016-12-08T20:04:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/expansion/parsing/g 2016-12-08T20:05:15Z drdo: younder: racket has been doing some cool stuff 2016-12-08T20:05:38Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-12-08T20:05:46Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-12-08T20:05:59Z younder: I have come to love the 'staticity' of lisp as I struggle to keep up with Haskell. 2016-12-08T20:06:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2bz5gl/sbcl_122_released/ 2016-12-08T20:06:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl has broken people's code by changing how quasiquote's internals work 2016-12-08T20:06:58Z drdo: fiddlerwoaroof: Because people started relying on non-standard stuff 2016-12-08T20:06:58Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:07:21Z drdo: Because this is something people actually need 2016-12-08T20:07:30Z younder: non-standard stuff is what you suggest 2016-12-08T20:07:39Z drdo: This issue arrises in a lot of areas 2016-12-08T20:07:54Z Arathnim: I don't think it's worth the cost, especially if every code walker has to be updated to walk three new special forms. 2016-12-08T20:07:58Z drdo: There are a ton of "portability librabries" 2016-12-08T20:08:34Z shrdlu68: Thin layers. 2016-12-08T20:08:44Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:08:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really think that the existence of portability libraries is a bad thing 2016-12-08T20:08:48Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:09:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: There is always going to be undefined/non-standard behavior 2016-12-08T20:09:29Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:09:31Z younder: I can speak of experience Common Lisp is better now that it ever was in the past. Mostly because of. Quicklisp, asp, ioup 2016-12-08T20:09:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:09:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if you need predictable behavior in a situation where behavior is undefined, you depend on a library that does specify that behavior. 2016-12-08T20:10:29Z shrdlu68: My only real grievance against the spec is gray streams, and even that isn't than big of a deal. 2016-12-08T20:10:33Z drdo: Which also isn't wonderful in CL 2016-12-08T20:10:40Z drdo: (the package system and so on) 2016-12-08T20:11:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like CL's package system 2016-12-08T20:11:19Z shrdlu68: Me too. 2016-12-08T20:11:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: The main issues I have is are with pathnames, but I'm not quite sure if that's my lack of knowledge of the spec or if it's a real issue. 2016-12-08T20:12:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: uiop, etc. help a bit, but there are still rough edges there 2016-12-08T20:12:06Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T20:12:13Z younder: no fiddlerwoaroof I have had thesame probem 2016-12-08T20:13:50Z younder: All languages have warts, we learn to live with them, even love them. 2016-12-08T20:14:11Z shrdlu68: What's the pathname wart, exactly? 2016-12-08T20:14:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's mostly what's unspecified about pathnames 2016-12-08T20:14:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've written code on SBCL that blows up on CCL and vice versa 2016-12-08T20:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Things like "what do you have to do when a filename has four dots in it" 2016-12-08T20:15:06Z drdo: younder: I'd prefer to fix them :) 2016-12-08T20:15:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, now that I've complained, I can't remember what exactly the edge case was 2016-12-08T20:16:02Z younder: drdo, You are talking to a language designer ;) 2016-12-08T20:16:08Z drdo: It doesn't really matter, there are *a lot* of warts in CL, and at this point we're only ranting 2016-12-08T20:18:27Z younder: CL gets the job done. It is a practical and usable language. That is enough for me. 2016-12-08T20:18:30Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: see what ASDF does to handle it; it has a lot of better behaviors for filenames 2016-12-08T20:18:36Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: and it's all available in UIOP 2016-12-08T20:19:06Z shrdlu68: I don't seem to be affected by the warts. Maybe in a few years I'll be all wise. 2016-12-08T20:19:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu68: I think it's this: (princ (make-pathname :name "a.b.c" :directory "/")) doesn't return what you want on sbcl 2016-12-08T20:19:38Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:19:53Z younder: UIOP is an a new and awesome addition. Love at first sight 2016-12-08T20:20:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: yeah, I went to UIOP eventually, I just think that pathname handling is pretty badly under-specified; although, it probably has to do with the variety of systems Lisp has had to run on. 2016-12-08T20:20:31Z hugo_dc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-08T20:20:36Z shrdlu68: fiddlerwoaroof: I've had an episode of weird pathname behavior on sbcl too, if only I could remember it... 2016-12-08T20:20:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/alimenta-feed-archive/blob/master/feed-archive.lisp#L13 2016-12-08T20:20:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think was where the issue came up 2016-12-08T20:21:42Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:21:59Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: here, maybe your expectations are wrong 2016-12-08T20:22:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: It probably was, although my code did work on one of the implementations I used 2016-12-08T20:22:57Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, the pathnames are basically "good enough to handle lisp source files and outpust" 2016-12-08T20:22:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which was annoying. 2016-12-08T20:24:07Z jasom: there were also actual bugs that have been fixed (e.g. sbcl and ccl each had their own issues with files with "*" in the name and DIRECTORY) 2016-12-08T20:24:31Z younder: Portability has been a problem for as long as I have used Lisp nad I have used it since 1998 2016-12-08T20:24:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, my issue was that sbcl would throw a "too many dots" error 2016-12-08T20:24:35Z jasom: they would return pathnames that didn't actually open the file. Both have been fixed now though. 2016-12-08T20:25:28Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:25:31Z shrdlu68: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh yeah, file names like "[foo" and "bar.1.baz" borked, but I think the issue got fixed. 2016-12-08T20:25:39Z younder: SBCL has always been more knawrly than LispWorks 2016-12-08T20:26:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I eventually fixed the issues I had with a combination of forcing the dots to always go into the :name slot of a pathname and then using uiop:native-namestring to portably get a unix pathname 2016-12-08T20:27:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I did know from PCL that pathnames were going to be an issue :) 2016-12-08T20:27:52Z younder: ;) 2016-12-08T20:30:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, here's the fix: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/alimenta-feed-archive/blob/master/feed-archive.lisp#L35 2016-12-08T20:30:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's even packaged up in a nice restart 2016-12-08T20:30:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: One of my favorite lisp features 2016-12-08T20:30:33Z younder: Does it work? 2016-12-08T20:30:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think so 2016-12-08T20:30:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I run this every 15 minutes in a cron job 2016-12-08T20:31:04Z younder: Wooaa 2016-12-08T20:31:25Z younder: That just aint right 2016-12-08T20:31:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: What isn't right/ 2016-12-08T20:32:15Z travv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T20:32:37Z younder: "fiddlerwoaroof> I run this every 15 minutes in a cron job" that bit 2016-12-08T20:33:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I run the feed-archiver every 15 minutes: it checks a list of rss feeds and downloads them to a directory 2016-12-08T20:34:03Z younder: In your '' world perhaps it does make sense 2016-12-08T20:34:41Z varjag: does allegro use mit-derived loop or it's own? 2016-12-08T20:35:25Z younder: varjag, It's own 2016-12-08T20:35:26Z varjag: found a case where it is order of magnitude slower than in ccl.. 2016-12-08T20:35:27Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: One problem I found that you can't fix without changing the standard is the problem I talked about yesterday, where IEEE half precision float cannot be short-float because short-float's minimum precision is greater than the IEEE half-float's precision, which means there's probably never going to be a short-float that isn't single-float, even though some code could use short-float. 2016-12-08T20:35:39Z varjag: or even two 2016-12-08T20:35:44Z aeth: And if you're going to update one integer in section 12.2 you might as well update other things too :-p 2016-12-08T20:36:14Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:36:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, when people get around to Common Lisp, Perl 6 edition, I'll be looking on in trepidation 2016-12-08T20:38:20Z younder: fiddlerwoaroof, Well the only language they managed to implement Perl 6 in was Haskell. 2016-12-08T20:38:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I doubt they tried to implement it in common lisp 2016-12-08T20:38:42Z younder: The strictest to implement the laxest. 2016-12-08T20:39:21Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:40:24Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:40:38Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:40:43Z shrdlu68: How do imlementations churn out machine code for the different architectures? I've always wondered whether they have some sort of higher level assembly... 2016-12-08T20:40:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl has its own assembler 2016-12-08T20:41:28Z younder: Seriously Haskell's mathematical inevitability is a serious turn-on. 2016-12-08T20:41:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu68: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ 2016-12-08T20:42:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: younder: have you tried Shen at all? 2016-12-08T20:42:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.shenlanguage.org/ 2016-12-08T20:43:42Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:43:54Z younder: fiddlerwoaroof, not yet 2016-12-08T20:44:05Z varjag: (loop repeat 10000000 do (progn)) in allegro 10.1b is mega slow 2016-12-08T20:44:20Z aeth: younder: I like writing in imperative programming, though. 2016-12-08T20:44:21Z varjag: but is instant if you wrap it in (time..) 2016-12-08T20:44:22Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T20:44:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think beach has his own loop implementation 2016-12-08T20:44:38Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:44:54Z varjag: i just don't understand what's going on 2016-12-08T20:45:04Z aeth: younder: Imperative Common Lisp takes away most of the practical disadvantages of imperative programming, i.e. the mindless reptition of things that shouldn't have to be repeated. 2016-12-08T20:45:05Z gmpreussner joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:45:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: varjag: did you try macroexpanding it? 2016-12-08T20:45:18Z _death: varjag: likely it's compiled in that context 2016-12-08T20:46:23Z varjag: it's too slow even for interpreted imo 2016-12-08T20:46:29Z varjag: just a million iterations 2016-12-08T20:46:34Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-08T20:46:37Z _death: doesn't look like million to me 2016-12-08T20:46:41Z varjag: er right 2016-12-08T20:46:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: varjag 2016-12-08T20:46:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: try (defun () (loop...)) 2016-12-08T20:47:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: :P can't lisp today 2016-12-08T20:47:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defun foo () (loop...)) 2016-12-08T20:47:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: (foo) is really slow 2016-12-08T20:47:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: then (compile 'foo) (foo), it's really fast 2016-12-08T20:47:44Z varjag: ok, then it must be it 2016-12-08T20:47:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe the compiler optimizes the loop out? 2016-12-08T20:47:57Z warweasle quit (Quit: meh) 2016-12-08T20:48:10Z varjag: fiddlerwoaroof: it is slow when it does useful things too 2016-12-08T20:48:23Z shrdlu68: What does the safety optimization level do? 2016-12-08T20:48:28Z varjag: i just took it to the shortest case 2016-12-08T20:49:26Z varjag: fiddlerwoaroof: the same code works much faster in ecl, sbcl, ccl.. 2016-12-08T20:49:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, before compilation DESCRIBE says it's an interpreted-function, afterwards it gets to be a TENURED COMPILED-FUNCTION 2016-12-08T20:49:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: varjag: I wonder how fast it is in sbcl's interpreted mode 2016-12-08T20:49:57Z aeth: varjag: for comparison, maybe try writing the same thing in do? 2016-12-08T20:50:07Z younder: good night. 2016-12-08T20:51:18Z aeth: Usually loop and do should be about the same speed for doing the same thing. Ultimately, they're mostly let and tagbody+go, usually. 2016-12-08T20:51:24Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:52:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's interesting, on sbcl with *evaluator-mode* set to :interpret, the function is still really fast 2016-12-08T20:52:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, either sbcl's interpreter is better or there's something else going on. 2016-12-08T20:52:33Z varjag: aeth: tried it with dotimes, loop is visibly slower 2016-12-08T20:53:02Z varjag: oh well i'll just wrap it in defun i guess 2016-12-08T20:53:08Z varjag: even if that makes little sense otherwise 2016-12-08T20:53:26Z varjag: or should i do #+allegro with own baby loop counter 2016-12-08T20:53:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I think sbcl's compiler is better to: at least, disassembly of the compiled function produces much more compact code 2016-12-08T20:54:14Z aeth: Why doesn't Allegro just take from SBCL, then? 2016-12-08T20:54:19Z aeth: The license permits it 2016-12-08T20:54:55Z aeth: Actually, I don't think SBCL even uses its own loop, it uses someone else's. https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/loop.lisp 2016-12-08T20:55:31Z varjag: that's MIT loop 2016-12-08T20:55:34Z younder: Last comment: ACL probaly has the best optimizer 2016-12-08T20:55:42Z varjag: doubt it 2016-12-08T20:56:00Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T20:56:07Z varjag: at least not for my jpeg codec 2016-12-08T20:56:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Wasn't sbcl notable for numeric performance? 2016-12-08T20:56:29Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-12-08T20:57:07Z varjag: when i wrote it initially acl was faster than lispworks on it 2016-12-08T20:57:10Z varjag: and sbcl wasn't around 2016-12-08T20:57:13Z varjag: good old days 2016-12-08T20:57:18Z varjag: when fixnums were 30 bits 2016-12-08T20:58:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://metamodular.com/loop.pdf 2016-12-08T20:58:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach's loop & 2016-12-08T20:59:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T20:59:07Z varjag: anyway, the library had a compile-time optimization loop 2016-12-08T20:59:16Z varjag: to select the best arithmetic method 2016-12-08T20:59:35Z younder: Very last comment: CLOS 2016-12-08T20:59:49Z varjag: and with time, computers got fast and the loop got too short for calibration 2016-12-08T21:00:06Z varjag: so i bumped it by an order around 2012 2016-12-08T21:00:14Z varjag: turns out it's too slow for allegro now 2016-12-08T21:01:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I was reading an essay in "oop, the CLOS perspective" that mentions some metaclass that strips down CLOS for restricted systems 2016-12-08T21:03:11Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:03:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I cant' find it now, but has anyone used the MOP for interesting things? 2016-12-08T21:04:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially, interesting open-source things? 2016-12-08T21:04:31Z varjag: used it a few times, can't remember what for now 2016-12-08T21:04:45Z Arathnim: Why on earth does that implementation use parser combinators for symbols? What are they parsing it into? 2016-12-08T21:04:49Z varjag: i know it was popular for things like adding object persistence 2016-12-08T21:05:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: varjag: yeah, I've seen a bunch of that sort of thing 2016-12-08T21:05:38Z varjag: object migration and on 2016-12-08T21:05:51Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-08T21:05:55Z varjag: some aspect-oriented programming extensions 2016-12-08T21:05:59Z varjag: when aspects were hot 2016-12-08T21:06:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Arathnim: I think a major concern is making extensibility easy. 2016-12-08T21:08:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Last night I was thinking of using metaclasses to implement mvcc for slots 2016-12-08T21:08:52Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:09:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, basically, a class instance would have a version counter and all the slots would be stored as arrays. 2016-12-08T21:09:10Z failproneshark joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:09:38Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:09:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: When you access a slot, the instance would somehow determine which "version" you're at and deliver the appropriate value. 2016-12-08T21:10:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Setting a slot would increment the version counter and, consequently, mean that the write is stored in the next position of an array. 2016-12-08T21:10:12Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-08T21:10:18Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T21:10:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/write/written value/ 2016-12-08T21:12:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: (unless the writer's version is < than the latest version, in which case it'd signal a condition) 2016-12-08T21:12:33Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T21:12:59Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:15:00Z srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 2016-12-08T21:19:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-08T21:23:46Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:24:39Z jebes joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:26:11Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:28:32Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I was thinking about something similar, but for a different use case. 2016-12-08T21:30:03Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T21:30:13Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:31:33Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:32:05Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Instead of using one array, I might use several, too. e.g. allowing an object to have 2 single-float slots, an (unsigned-byte 32) slot, and a t slot. That would then allocate 3 arrays, two of them upgraded. 2016-12-08T21:32:33Z NeverDie_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T21:33:00Z aeth: I *think* multiple arrays would be simpler than only accepting bytes or things that can be turned into bytes by using undefined behavior. 2016-12-08T21:33:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, in my scheme, each slot would have its own array 2016-12-08T21:34:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every time the object's version increments you'd copy all the slot values forward to the nth item of its array. If this proves to be too complicated, I'd probably just store the version as an array of slot versions 2016-12-08T21:34:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/complicated/slow 2016-12-08T21:34:47Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T21:35:03Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure if I'd merge slots by type and store some kind of step-up thing or give each slot their own array 2016-12-08T21:35:10Z aeth: (OpenGL uses the term "stride" iirc) 2016-12-08T21:36:33Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T21:41:44Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:43:01Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-08T21:45:41Z Xach: Wow! Fantastico! 2016-12-08T21:47:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: fundraiser doing well? 2016-12-08T21:47:59Z Arathnim: Wow. Yeah, I'd classify that as "doing well" 2016-12-08T21:48:21Z Xach: A generous donor paid the entire target amount 2016-12-08T21:48:28Z Xach: Now I hope to see if it goes beyond 2016-12-08T21:48:48Z EvW1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T21:49:11Z Arathnim: Xach: Is the amount under "Current Campaign Status" matched or unmatched? 2016-12-08T21:49:18Z Xach: Arathnim: unmatched 2016-12-08T21:50:11Z Xach must go for now 2016-12-08T21:54:41Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-08T21:55:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:08:39Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:08:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:08:59Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-08T22:09:04Z defaultxr: anyone using Sly currently? i installed it from MELPA just now and doing M-x sly just makes the modeline say "Polling /tmp/sly.26596/..." forever. never connects, even when I try it with emacs -Q. anything else i have to do to switch from slime? the github page says it should pretty much just work 2016-12-08T22:11:55Z phoe: defaultxr: look at the *inferior-lisp* buffer 2016-12-08T22:11:57Z phoe: what does it say? 2016-12-08T22:12:47Z defaultxr: Package SWANK does not exist. 2016-12-08T22:13:27Z defaultxr: thanks, that would explain it i guess 2016-12-08T22:13:36Z phoe: defaultxr: woop 2016-12-08T22:13:38Z phoe: :D 2016-12-08T22:14:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:14:55Z defaultxr: yep, got it working now. Thanks! 2016-12-08T22:15:21Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T22:16:34Z defaultxr: not sure if you'd know, but is Sly still under development? looks like there hasn't been any commits in over two months, is the author just taking a break or something? 2016-12-08T22:17:21Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:20:37Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T22:20:51Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:22:49Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:24:56Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T22:29:19Z xuxuru quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:30:03Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:31:01Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:35:44Z IPXSam: Hello. I quite don't understand how REPL is used. I 2016-12-08T22:36:04Z rlatimore quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-08T22:36:13Z IPXSam: . . . I've heard you can connect to a running process and still use the REPL, how does this work? 2016-12-08T22:39:26Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-08T22:39:26Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:42:34Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:43:05Z White_Flame: IPXSam: that style of interactive system runs a TCP server in the lisp program, which multiple clients can connect to. This is mostly transparent when using emacs+slime 2016-12-08T22:43:28Z White_Flame: but when you just run a bare lisp from the commandline, it has a synchronous console REPL 2016-12-08T22:43:41Z White_Flame: roughly equivalent to what python/erlang/etc do 2016-12-08T22:44:07Z IPXSam: and what is the standard procedure to achieve such functionality? 2016-12-08T22:44:25Z White_Flame: start emacs, type M-x lisp or whatever 2016-12-08T22:44:30Z White_Flame: and you get a repl in a buffer 2016-12-08T22:44:49Z White_Flame: or, just type "sbcl" in your terminal, and have a native console repl 2016-12-08T22:45:09Z White_Flame: (replace "sbcl" with "clisp" or whatever lisp implementation you're using) 2016-12-08T22:45:09Z White_Flame: ' 2016-12-08T22:46:00Z White_Flame: re-reading your original question, do you mean that you have a REPL-based program, and you can have external connections to it like web browsers? That's just basic threading running socket servers 2016-12-08T22:46:16Z White_Flame: doesn't interfere with the repl at all 2016-12-08T22:46:17Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:46:23Z _death: you use swank:create-server on the lisp side, and slime-connect on the emacs side 2016-12-08T22:46:48Z White_Flame: (my .emacs is fairly custom, so I always forget what the default startup command is) 2016-12-08T22:47:18Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:47:33Z impulse-- quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-08T22:48:04Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:48:24Z xristos: IPXSam: read the SLIME documentation for details (https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/), also lots of videos on youtube 2016-12-08T22:48:28Z impulse is now known as Guest2149 2016-12-08T22:49:00Z Guest2149 quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-08T22:49:27Z impulse-- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:49:56Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-08T22:50:00Z impulse-- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T22:50:07Z IPXSam: White_Flame, a program running remotely that must run 24/7 and might need to get debugged, so some parts of the source can be edited in real time. That is the picture I had. 2016-12-08T22:50:10Z pillton joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:50:15Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:50:19Z White_Flame: correct, we've deployed like that 2016-12-08T22:50:35Z IPXSam: Great 2016-12-08T22:50:46Z White_Flame: the startup of the program invokes slime's backend, then emacs can connect to it 2016-12-08T22:51:02Z White_Flame: you can have multiple simultaneous connections to it, each with their own repl context 2016-12-08T22:51:18Z impulse-- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:51:31Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:51:48Z IPXSam: So what is actually running in the remote machine is a CL REPL like the one I get when I invoke "sbcl" while also initializing something called SLIME which I can use to connect to? does it have to be strictly Emacs or ? 2016-12-08T22:51:56Z vh0st- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:52:15Z xristos: it can be anything that talks the protocol 2016-12-08T22:52:19Z xristos: slime is the emacs-end 2016-12-08T22:52:27Z xristos: swank is the CL-end 2016-12-08T22:52:54Z White_Flame: the REPL you get when running slime is much better than the one you get at the bare console 2016-12-08T22:53:10Z circ-user-lNHPq quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T22:53:40Z IPXSam: right so swank is the "back end" that runs on the remote machine and SLIME is a front end for Emacs to talk to swank? 2016-12-08T22:54:44Z mood: IPXSam: Correct 2016-12-08T22:54:55Z White_Flame: SLIME includes an emacs front-end, and a Lisp back-end. The backend is called Swank 2016-12-08T22:55:12Z White_Flame: so swank is part of the slime project 2016-12-08T22:55:23Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:56:19Z IPXSam: I see. So does SLIME include within the project an alternative front end not being Emacs, or is this achieved outside of SLIME by just using the Swank component and talking to it directly from a CL REPL? 2016-12-08T22:56:59Z xristos: there is no alternative frontend that i know of, you can make your own if you implement the swank protocol 2016-12-08T22:57:00Z White_Flame: I think there's a plugin for Eclipse or some other major IDE that has support for talking to swank 2016-12-08T22:57:19Z White_Flame: such projects tend to be pretty rudimentary, though. Nothing's as well supported as SLIME for doing lisp dev 2016-12-08T22:57:40Z IPXSam: Thanks guys 2016-12-08T22:57:50Z mood: There's SLIMV for Vim, but I'm not sure how actively that is still developed 2016-12-08T22:57:55Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-08T22:58:19Z xristos: iirc slimv does not speak the swank protocol 2016-12-08T22:58:36Z xristos: it's a crude layer over copy/pasta 2016-12-08T22:58:45Z xristos: tmux or some other contraption 2016-12-08T22:59:23Z White_Flame: IPXSam: slime takes care of things like jumping the cursor to the definition of a symbol, intelligently indenting based on whether things are data or code, by asking the running Lisp what certain symbols mean, really nice debugger & introspection facilities, etc. The raw cmdline repl doesn't do this sort of thing 2016-12-08T22:59:31Z mood: xristos: Its README states it's a SWANK client for Vim 2016-12-08T23:00:17Z xristos: mood: my mistake then 2016-12-08T23:00:50Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T23:00:50Z mood: xristos: Thanks for making me look it up :) Apparently it's being actively developed still 2016-12-08T23:01:17Z pillton: IPXSam: There are a few projects listed here: http://cliki.net/Development. 2016-12-08T23:02:11Z impulse-- quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-08T23:03:06Z impuls- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:03:30Z pillton: You have to remember the Great Contradiction: everybody requires an editor but very few improve an editor. 2016-12-08T23:03:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:05:22Z impuls- quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-08T23:06:12Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:06:28Z impulse- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:06:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:06:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-12-08T23:06:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:07:08Z impulse-- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:07:14Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:08:35Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:09:27Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-08T23:10:46Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-12-08T23:11:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:12:25Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:12:46Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:14:06Z impulse-- quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-08T23:15:10Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:15:14Z trocado: hi! if I have a list like this ((a b c) (1 2 3)) is there a way to set variable x with (a b c) and variable y with (1 2 3) with a single form? 2016-12-08T23:15:23Z trocado: like multiple-value-something? 2016-12-08T23:15:52Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:17:36Z impulse quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-08T23:17:39Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:17:47Z phoe: (let ((list '((a b c) (1 2 3)))) 2016-12-08T23:18:06Z Arathnim: clhs destructuring-bind 2016-12-08T23:18:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 2016-12-08T23:18:07Z phoe: (setf x (first list) y (second list))) 2016-12-08T23:18:16Z phoe: or destructuring-bind 2016-12-08T23:18:19Z BusFactor1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:18:25Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:18:39Z Arathnim: Whoops. Sorry for interrupting your code block. 2016-12-08T23:18:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:19:20Z phoe: Arathnim: you could have guessed 2016-12-08T23:19:23Z phoe: I had mismatched parens 2016-12-08T23:19:27Z phoe patpats 2016-12-08T23:20:09Z phoe: like, I can type stuff like "(" and the whole chat oughtta pause until I finish typing 2016-12-08T23:20:15Z phoe: otherwise it's a race condition 2016-12-08T23:20:27Z pillton: ( 2016-12-08T23:20:47Z White_Flame: or, you can have an IRC client that lets you shift-enter, to post a multi-line message at once ( 2016-12-08T23:20:47Z White_Flame: like this) 2016-12-08T23:20:54Z Arathnim: Multiplayer repl. I like it. 2016-12-08T23:21:01Z pillton: IRC doesn't allow that. 2016-12-08T23:21:18Z trocado: that's it, thanks! 2016-12-08T23:21:21Z White_Flame: the client blasts out multiple lines very quickly, odds of being split are minimized 2016-12-08T23:21:23Z mhd joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:21:53Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:23:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:26:51Z phoe: humm 2016-12-08T23:29:33Z aeth: White_Flame: clients should limit it to around 4-5 or so, though, so you don't flood... and even when sending a multi-line message it should delay each for a second or so, just to be safe about flood limits 2016-12-08T23:29:39Z aeth: pastebins are much easier, though 2016-12-08T23:29:43Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:29:57Z White_Flame: right, but for 2-3 liners, multi-line input is nice 2016-12-08T23:30:28Z aeth: the problem is that you can trigger flood limits in different ways at different levels (e.g. bots, the network itself, or maybe manual intervention at either the channel op or network admin level) 2016-12-08T23:30:28Z White_Flame: actually, you can paste as much as you want into clients; they tend to spam the first few lines quickly, then mete out the remainder one a second or so as to try to avoid auto flood bans 2016-12-08T23:30:51Z aeth: any evasion of anti-flood triggers isn't going to be perfect 2016-12-08T23:31:00Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:32:07Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-08T23:34:00Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:36:13Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:36:37Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:38:57Z jurov: xristos: slimv indeed does speak to swank, dun haet 2016-12-08T23:39:31Z jurov: where did you get such nonsense? 2016-12-08T23:41:15Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-08T23:41:32Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:41:45Z xristos: jurov: said i was mistaken, memory playing tricks on me 2016-12-08T23:42:08Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:42:16Z jurov: oh i should read more carefully, too 2016-12-08T23:47:59Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-12-08T23:49:30Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-08T23:52:23Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:00:43Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T00:01:14Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T00:01:30Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-09T00:04:51Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:05:22Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:07:20Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:11:05Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-12-09T00:11:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:11:44Z pillton joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:12:09Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:12:49Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:12:56Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:12:59Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:15:14Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:15:21Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-12-09T00:19:33Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:22:14Z holycow-2 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-09T00:23:19Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:25:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:26:51Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-09T00:27:39Z xuxuru quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:28:50Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:32:44Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-12-09T00:33:28Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:37:51Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:39:17Z jasom: xristos: fwiw, originally simlv didn't speak to swank; it launched a REPL in some terminal program (screen perhaps?). They switched to swank about a decade ago though. 2016-12-09T00:39:44Z xristos: yes thus my confusion 2016-12-09T00:40:00Z xristos: it's been a decade or more since i last had a look 2016-12-09T00:40:27Z xristos: felt like it was yesterday 2016-12-09T00:40:33Z pillton: Hah 2016-12-09T00:40:48Z Xach: time flies 2016-12-09T00:40:49Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:41:17Z xristos: Xach: i contributed to the quicklisp fund 2016-12-09T00:41:34Z Xach: thank you! 2016-12-09T00:41:35Z xristos: hopefully we'll get checksum checking 2016-12-09T00:41:45Z xristos: and i'll stop complaining 2016-12-09T00:44:11Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-09T00:44:37Z Xach: that is my top priority 2016-12-09T00:48:21Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:53:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:53:41Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T00:56:12Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T00:59:33Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:03:52Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:10:46Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T01:12:02Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:15:03Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:18:22Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:18:48Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:19:37Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:19:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:20:46Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:20:58Z mykon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:21:09Z imprfcto quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:32:27Z terpri joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:32:28Z mykon joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:33:15Z imprfcto joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:34:57Z rumbler31: xach: earlier today you mentioned using slime's inspect feature moresoe than the implementation's 2016-12-09T01:35:28Z Xach: yes 2016-12-09T01:35:59Z rumbler31: I find myself often trying to inspect very verbose forms (lists with 10k+ objects, etc) and things get bogged down from what I can tell because slime and the implementation are doing a lot of work to print those forms to the repl 2016-12-09T01:36:55Z rumbler31: with swank:inspect-in-emacs, it seems that the form is returned to the repl while also opening a new buffer for the inspector, and the arg :wait signals to the inspect function to not return until the new inspector buffer is closed 2016-12-09T01:37:39Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:37:42Z rumbler31: when I use this, performance improves, but I have to specifically invoke slime-inspect-quit (or whatever it is) because pressing q in the inspector buffer simply moves focus to the repl without closing the inspector 2016-12-09T01:37:47Z rumbler31: is this your experience? 2016-12-09T01:43:01Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:45:09Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:49:15Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:50:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T01:51:32Z failproneshark quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T01:52:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T01:57:29Z Xach: hmm 2016-12-09T01:57:44Z Xach: i don't think i've had objects that big that i wanted to inspect 2016-12-09T01:57:51Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T01:57:58Z Xach: at that point things have to be broken down a bit to make sense of it, to me 2016-12-09T01:58:58Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:02:25Z qwename joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:02:36Z phf joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:03:48Z jokleinn1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-09T02:04:14Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_funded_crowdfunding_projects 2016-12-09T02:04:21Z aeth: I don't see Quicklisp on this list yet. 2016-12-09T02:04:35Z aeth: https://www.quicklisp.org/donate 2016-12-09T02:04:41Z Xach: heh 2016-12-09T02:06:36Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:07:22Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:07:31Z phf: hello, are there any implementations of autoload for sbcl cmucl or ccl? i know acl has some facilities for that. i'd like to have some symbols in my default image, symbol-value'ing or symbol-function'ing which results in a load of a corresponding system. i suspect that it requires vm level support, but maybe somebody had some hacks. also i know about save-lisp etc. 2016-12-09T02:08:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T02:08:30Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T02:09:21Z Xach: phf: I have to say I find the facility a little irritating. 2016-12-09T02:09:34Z Xach: phf: Mostly because of the output in the middle of doing something that seems unrelated. 2016-12-09T02:10:22Z Xach: phf: that said, i haven't heard of anything like that for ccl or sbcl or cmucl 2016-12-09T02:17:31Z phf: i often find myself in a situation where i have a repl, and some trivial task in mind, and the overhead of all the right ql:quickload calls makes it seem like too much work. i've been using acl for a bit and i quite like how they put everything into cl-user, but it's there on demand. maybe i should just use save-lisp 2016-12-09T02:18:19Z Aven joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:19:06Z Xach: phf: what kind of trivial task? 2016-12-09T02:19:13Z impulse- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-09T02:20:13Z Xach: I wonder if I could easily wrap the slime repl in an autoloader for CL:UNDEFINED-FUNCTION errors... 2016-12-09T02:20:27Z phf: ooh right 2016-12-09T02:20:32Z phf: i could just hook into the debug handler 2016-12-09T02:21:02Z Xach: "just"! 2016-12-09T02:22:11Z phf: trivial task like drakma something form url, split-sequence it, ppcre a bit on the data, maybe ironclad comes into the picture somehow, so i'm deep inside the sexp, i'd like tab to complete things for me, and then i press enter everything's just loaded :> 2016-12-09T02:23:13Z aeth: phf: are you saying that when foo-bar-baz is undefined you want to load the QL package that provides foo-bar-baz when in cl-user? 2016-12-09T02:23:14Z phf: Xach: well, "just" because my previous approach was to go patching whatever symbol-value fallthrough case 2016-12-09T02:23:35Z phf: aeth: yes 2016-12-09T02:23:45Z aeth: phf: what happens if two packages provide foo-bar-baz? 2016-12-09T02:23:51Z Xach: phf: have fun and please write about how it goes 2016-12-09T02:23:56Z _death: I just use an image with commonly used systems loaded 2016-12-09T02:23:58Z phf: aeth: mu! 2016-12-09T02:25:14Z phf: Xach: cheers 2016-12-09T02:25:16Z phf left #lisp 2016-12-09T02:26:49Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:26:54Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T02:28:27Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T02:28:28Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-12-09T02:28:57Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T02:35:37Z IPXSam quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-09T02:38:28Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-09T02:40:48Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-09T02:46:08Z Aven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T02:47:42Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T02:48:02Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:00:53Z loke: There. Made a contribution to QL 2016-12-09T03:04:16Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-09T03:05:13Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:10:31Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:11:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:13:13Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:15:13Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:17:33Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:18:51Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:20:08Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:20:56Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:22:16Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:22:29Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T03:22:40Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:23:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:27:50Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:28:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:30:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:32:28Z qwename left #lisp 2016-12-09T03:33:05Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-12-09T03:34:00Z pillton: G'day beach. 2016-12-09T03:34:08Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T03:35:15Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:36:01Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:45:06Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:45:39Z Orion3k quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:45:59Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T03:46:08Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:46:39Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:49:34Z Fare: beach: hi! 2016-12-09T03:50:49Z parsnip quit (Quit: parsnip) 2016-12-09T03:53:31Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-09T03:54:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: I am a bear of very little brain...) 2016-12-09T03:55:15Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T03:57:42Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-12-09T03:57:47Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:00:01Z Tex_Nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T04:02:44Z moei joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:03:41Z circ-user-QaADT joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:04:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:04:37Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:07:27Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:07:47Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:09:39Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-09T04:09:43Z omilu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:09:56Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:16:26Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:22:18Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:26:47Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2016-12-09T04:28:31Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:30:14Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-12-09T04:32:58Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:33:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:34:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T04:35:25Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-09T04:35:51Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:39:25Z vicfred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-09T04:39:42Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:45:27Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:47:22Z circ-user-QaADT quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:47:38Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T04:48:02Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-09T04:48:47Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:49:23Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:54:22Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2016-12-09T04:54:54Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T04:58:13Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T05:02:23Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:03:36Z Arathnim quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-12-09T05:04:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T05:11:02Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:11:36Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-09T05:12:26Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:14:46Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:15:07Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T05:15:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:16:09Z aksdad joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:16:18Z aksdad: Hi guys I have a little question 2016-12-09T05:16:30Z aksdad: I'm passing and storing a propety list using a fexpr 2016-12-09T05:16:48Z aksdad: macro and when I retrieve the value to check if it is equal 2016-12-09T05:16:55Z aksdad: it tries to evaluate it as a variable 2016-12-09T05:17:10Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:17:16Z aksdad: (eq f f) 2016-12-09T05:17:27Z aksdad: Error: Attempt to take the value of the unbound variable `f'. [condition type: unbound-variable] 2016-12-09T05:17:40Z pillton: It would help if you used paste.lisp.org. 2016-12-09T05:18:08Z aksdad: Can I use hastebin? 2016-12-09T05:18:17Z phoe: Yes 2016-12-09T05:18:17Z pillton: Hastebin is fine. 2016-12-09T05:18:23Z aksdad: http://hastebin.com/umadoburoh.lisp 2016-12-09T05:19:52Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-09T05:21:15Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-09T05:22:55Z aksdad: Its something in line 100-130 2016-12-09T05:22:59Z pillton: aksdad: Your code is a bit difficult to read because you don't use the typical coding style. Some good guides can be found here: http://cliki.net/coding%20convention. 2016-12-09T05:23:55Z aksdad: pillton: Sorry for that, tell me if you can't read something 2016-12-09T05:25:43Z loke: aksdad: You really shoul dbe using an editor with proper indetnation (like Emacs) and try to break lines more readibly. Also, don't leave dangling ) 2016-12-09T05:25:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:27:08Z beach: aksdad: It is worse than that. A Common Lisp programmer relies on the indentation and spacing to be automatically generated from the code. When such a Common Lisp programmer looks at code with incorrect indentation and spacing, he or she is forced to count parentheses, making it nearly impossible to understand the code in a reasonable amount of time. 2016-12-09T05:28:07Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T05:29:04Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:29:33Z beach: aksdad: So you are basically telling us: "Hey, I don't give a shit about conventions, and I am asking you to do a lot of work that you don't normally do, simply so that I can avoid learning about those conventions." 2016-12-09T05:29:54Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T05:30:17Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:34:08Z aksdad: beach: I'm just really new to lisp and this one problem has been chewing on my brain for the past hour or so. I do understand there are conventions and stuff but I'm just trying to get my feet wet with a new language. 2016-12-09T05:34:58Z beach: aksdad: It looks like you are going about learning Common Lisp the wrong way. For one thing, it is rare to use EVAL. 2016-12-09T05:35:18Z beach: aksdad: And you are invoking undefined behavior it seems. 2016-12-09T05:35:32Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:35:35Z Bike: heh, you're new but know what a fexpr is? 2016-12-09T05:35:37Z beach: aksdad: You seem to be using SETQ on variables that have not been previously defined. 2016-12-09T05:36:08Z beach: aksdad: What Bike says. FEXPRS are not part of Common Lisp. 2016-12-09T05:38:56Z Bike: you also don't really need them ever or hardly ever 2016-12-09T05:39:23Z Bike: defun.fexpr is probably wrong, that body is not valid code 2016-12-09T05:39:25Z aksdad: its a macro they gave us at college so that we can create functions that can take undefined variables 2016-12-09T05:39:31Z Bike: er, defun.fexpr deleteofficer 2016-12-09T05:39:35Z Bike: what? come on. 2016-12-09T05:39:41Z Bike: what the fuck happened in academics 2016-12-09T05:39:51Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T05:39:57Z aksdad: Yeah this course is just plain bad 2016-12-09T05:40:05Z aksdad: We're not really taught lisp 2016-12-09T05:40:10Z Bike: you don't want your function to "take undefined variables", you just write a normal function and pass it a quoted symbol 2016-12-09T05:40:14Z neoncontrails quit 2016-12-09T05:40:36Z aksdad: That's what I understood too 2016-12-09T05:41:17Z aksdad: but this assignment wants us to pass in stuff like (store john ((height . 160))) 2016-12-09T05:41:40Z aksdad: They specifically say that the input is going to unbounded :| 2016-12-09T05:42:00Z Bike: okay. whatever. everybody's school sucks for some reason. 2016-12-09T05:42:01Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:42:03Z Bike: regardless, line 95 is wrong 2016-12-09T05:42:36Z aksdad: I agree, deleteofficer doesn't work 2016-12-09T05:42:53Z beach: aksdad: What school is this? 2016-12-09T05:42:57Z aksdad: Haven't gotten around to that part yet 2016-12-09T05:43:28Z aksdad: Its a tech school in India 2016-12-09T05:43:50Z aksdad: I messed up the professor choice 2016-12-09T05:43:53Z Bike: it's pretty mysterious to me, you see, what kind of education would let someone know what a fexpr is but not that this is a ridiculous way to use em 2016-12-09T05:44:06Z Bike: but you're probably not super interested in hearing us all complain about your school 2016-12-09T05:44:35Z Bike: i only see you calling eq in l60 and l89 2016-12-09T05:44:53Z aksdad: It's alright I bash some of their teaching methods all the time 2016-12-09T05:44:58Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:44:58Z Bike: substituteoperators seems worrying 2016-12-09T05:46:00Z aksdad: What its supposed to is replace the certain symbols in the input which we get 2016-12-09T05:46:32Z aksdad: its a db so if I wanted to find something I'd input (find (eq sex female)) 2016-12-09T05:46:45Z vh0st- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T05:47:07Z aksdad: substituteoperators replaces that 'sex' with the value stored in a propertylist elsewhere where the key matches 2016-12-09T05:47:37Z aksdad: which converts (eq sex female) to (eq male female) 2016-12-09T05:48:04Z aksdad: but using eval on it treats male and female as unbounded variables 2016-12-09T05:48:35Z beach: aksdad: This just isn't the way to write programs. 2016-12-09T05:49:14Z Bike: yeah this is kind of bizarre 2016-12-09T05:49:31Z _death: removeofficer2 has (lst) as well.. 2016-12-09T05:49:39Z Bike: one disadvantage of using eval heavily is that eval doesn't know about local variables 2016-12-09T05:49:46Z Bike: but uh, i'm not even sure you have any?? 2016-12-09T05:49:50Z aksdad: yeah its mutated into something I don't like 2016-12-09T05:50:16Z aksdad: That's why I'm trying to avoid 2016-12-09T05:50:26Z aksdad: *what 2016-12-09T05:52:31Z aksdad: That's what I don't understand about this assignment, how do they want us to compare two variables that are unbounded 2016-12-09T05:52:37Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T05:53:00Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-09T05:53:26Z Bike: maybe they're not supposed to be variables 2016-12-09T05:53:29Z Bike: i couldn't even guess 2016-12-09T05:53:41Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-09T05:53:53Z Bike: this is like being handed a forty-year-old work order written by google translate 2016-12-09T05:54:37Z _death: and there's that funny stray colon on line 136.. 2016-12-09T05:54:50Z Arathnim: Are you trying to scan for unbound lexical variables to make lambda functions/callable bocks of code? Like (find (eq sex female)) => (find list :test (lambda (sex) (eq sex 'female)))? 2016-12-09T05:56:02Z aksdad: Bike this assignment was made in '98 lol 2016-12-09T05:56:17Z aksdad: _death typo lol 2016-12-09T05:56:27Z Bike: and it was too old then too :( 2016-12-09T05:56:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T05:57:26Z aksdad: Arathnim: something like that but not using the find function 2016-12-09T05:57:41Z aksdad: Its a custom find function 2016-12-09T06:01:11Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:01:48Z Arathnim: I'm guessing it isn't using the advanced technique for using unbound variables, but it takes arguments in the form of (equality-test category symbol-to-quote), not actual code with no bindings. 2016-12-09T06:02:36Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-12-09T06:04:04Z aksdad: Arathnim: I don't understand lisp enough to tell you that sorry 2016-12-09T06:05:28Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:07:35Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-09T06:09:09Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:13:08Z beach: aksdad: Notice the difference between "unbound" and "unbounded". 2016-12-09T06:13:38Z beach: "unbound" -> no binding has been established so it has no value. 2016-12-09T06:14:07Z beach: "unbounded" -> arbitrarily large or small. 2016-12-09T06:14:18Z aksdad: my bad this thing just has me on full tilt 2016-12-09T06:16:02Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T06:16:52Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:17:23Z beach: aksdad: Do you have the statement of the assignment available for public viewing somewhere? 2016-12-09T06:19:05Z aksdad: Unfortunately, no 2016-12-09T06:19:19Z aksdad: I'm sure you'd be entertained by it 2016-12-09T06:19:22Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T06:19:39Z beach: Well, I could write to the professor who proposed it. 2016-12-09T06:22:41Z beach: This kind of behavior gives Common Lisp a bad reputation. I mean, if students are told that this is the way to write programs, we have a big problem. 2016-12-09T06:23:55Z beach: And if students are not taught to respect the conventions of the language they program in, then they are not told about the very basics of programming, namely the importance of the code to be used in communication with other programmers. 2016-12-09T06:24:05Z aksdad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T06:26:36Z ASau` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T06:26:43Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-12-09T06:27:14Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:29:53Z _leb joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:30:27Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:30:34Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:32:27Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:34:30Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:34:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:34:44Z tmtwd quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-09T06:35:22Z flip214: Is this page legit? https://payments.common-lisp.net/project/quicklisp/sessions/1d2dbf4cd42/alternate-payments/index.html 2016-12-09T06:35:42Z flip214: just asking for confirmation before sending money to some Nigerian prince 2016-12-09T06:37:38Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-09T06:38:05Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-09T06:40:39Z beach: I believe that's the one that has been mentioned, yes. 2016-12-09T06:41:21Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T06:41:49Z beach: But the donation doubler has been reached, so you can donate directly to Xach instead. 2016-12-09T06:44:02Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:45:18Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:47:57Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T06:51:10Z shymega quit (Quit: (DEFUN LISPISGOD () (LISPISGOD))) 2016-12-09T06:51:53Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:52:01Z shymega joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:53:13Z akkad: B 2016-12-09T06:53:13Z vh0st- joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:55:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-09T06:57:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-09T06:58:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm sort of curious to know what the exact assignment given to aksdad was. 2016-12-09T06:59:26Z flip214: beach: that wouldn't be an European IBAN, would it? 2016-12-09T06:59:58Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:00:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: While the macro at the beginning is certainly odd, it sounds a bit to me like he's supposed to be using symbols as data rather than as names for data. 2016-12-09T07:00:07Z beach: Sounds plausible. The CLF is a Dutch organization I believe. 2016-12-09T07:00:13Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T07:01:51Z beach: flip214: I don't see anything that looks like one. Where do you see it? 2016-12-09T07:03:32Z beach: flip214: Oh, on the page for alternate payments methods. Yes, that's an IBAN for an account in the Netherlands. 2016-12-09T07:05:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the macro seems to be from here: https://www.cs.umd.edu/class/fall2011/cmsc420-0101/lisp/fexpr.lisp 2016-12-09T07:05:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.cs.umd.edu/class/fall2011/cmsc420-0101/ 2016-12-09T07:06:06Z beach: Wow, how did you find that? 2016-12-09T07:06:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just googled defun.fexpr 2016-12-09T07:06:43Z beach: Smart. 2016-12-09T07:06:55Z _death: and the particular assignment seems https://www.cs.umd.edu/class/fall2011/cmsc420-0101/lispp5.pdf 2016-12-09T07:06:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then, when the first lisp thing popped up, I shortened the url to what looked like a course url 2016-12-09T07:07:28Z beach: That's some very bad Common Lisp code for coming from UMD. 2016-12-09T07:08:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:09:36Z beach: _death: Right on. 2016-12-09T07:10:46Z White_Flame: really, s/defun.fexpr/defmacro/, and replace eval with commas, to get it mostly modernized 2016-12-09T07:11:15Z White_Flame: but if the only point of this is to be able to pass in unbound variables, it probably needs deeper surgery than that 2016-12-09T07:11:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:11:44Z White_Flame: none of the "fexpr"s look like they're really doing any code construction, just eventually works on values passed in 2016-12-09T07:13:39Z beach: So some teacher in India just ripped this one off, it seems. 2016-12-09T07:13:41Z Bike: an actual fexpr doesn't do code construction, it's something that runs at runtime on unevaluated arguments 2016-12-09T07:13:48Z fourier` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:14:08Z White_Flame: Bike: right, I mean replacing with macros, it doesn't do any construction, so that replacement isn't sensible 2016-12-09T07:14:34Z Bike: it works. fexprs in common lisp to begin with is what isn't sensible 2016-12-09T07:14:48Z White_Flame: The last page of the assignment says that defun.fexpr is "defined in section 10 of the LISP reference". I wonder if that's again course materials or some other external reference 2016-12-09T07:14:53Z White_Flame: Bike: right 2016-12-09T07:14:54Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T07:15:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: The course includes a short lisp reference 2016-12-09T07:15:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T07:15:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.cs.umd.edu/class/fall2011/cmsc420-0101/lispref.pdf 2016-12-09T07:15:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: It sounds like the professor probably started on Franz Lisp and hasn't given it up. 2016-12-09T07:15:59Z Bike: lol prog 2016-12-09T07:16:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, he came up with a macro to emulate Franz lisp's (defun fexpr (...) ...) 2016-12-09T07:16:17Z Bike: return is only valid in a prog 2016-12-09T07:16:23Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: That sounds like a very plausible explanation. 2016-12-09T07:17:32Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T07:21:45Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T07:29:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs prog 2016-12-09T07:29:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm 2016-12-09T07:29:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs progv 2016-12-09T07:29:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 2016-12-09T07:30:03Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:30:26Z johs joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:33:48Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T07:36:02Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T07:40:11Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:40:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:42:52Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-12-09T07:55:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-12-09T07:58:50Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-12-09T08:04:05Z reepca` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T08:04:41Z Trenif quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-09T08:07:06Z ragepandemic joined #lisp 2016-12-09T08:07:54Z reepca quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T08:08:01Z akkad: can you reference a variable by it's name in another var? e.g https://gist.github.com/01d162cd5a75ec79ae7d12265cdc0193 2016-12-09T08:09:07Z ecraven: maybe symbol-value or eval? 2016-12-09T08:09:15Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-12-09T08:13:04Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T08:14:34Z larsen: I noticed that #lisp-it is in the list of non-English IRC channels on common-lisp.net. It's usually just me there, but still, if someone wants to chat in italian... 2016-12-09T08:14:39Z jdz: akkda: I think SLOT-VALUE should do in this case. 2016-12-09T08:14:49Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-09T08:15:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: larsen: is latin close enough :) 2016-12-09T08:15:12Z jdz: larsen: va bene! 2016-12-09T08:15:19Z akkad: you think just pass abc to slot-value? or with-slots? 2016-12-09T08:15:30Z jdz: akkad: use SLOT-VALUE function. 2016-12-09T08:15:36Z larsen: I tried contacting a member of the italian community (www.lisp.it) to propose him to revamp the project, but I had no luck 2016-12-09T08:15:55Z larsen: fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2016-12-09T08:18:13Z jdz: akkad: also, you can use a getter function (since you have defined the accessors). 2016-12-09T08:18:25Z akkad: does work 2016-12-09T08:18:27Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T08:18:39Z jdz: akkad: like (check-object-value #'a bar 1) 2016-12-09T08:19:03Z akkad: ahh 2016-12-09T08:19:09Z akkad: nice 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#lisp 2016-12-09T11:14:55Z malice: Can I change "PWD" of my repl? So that commands that load files load them from the directory I want, not my home? 2016-12-09T11:15:00Z malice: (relatively to some dir, not home) 2016-12-09T11:15:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: *default-pathname-defaults* 2016-12-09T11:15:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Controls lisp pathnames 2016-12-09T11:15:39Z malice: Wow, that's a strange name. 2016-12-09T11:15:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs *default-pathname-defaults* 2016-12-09T11:15:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm 2016-12-09T11:15:54Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:16:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are also calls to posix like osicat-posix:chdir that will change the posix directory. 2016-12-09T11:18:20Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T11:18:26Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T11:20:18Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T11:20:43Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:21:08Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:21:42Z malice: Thanks, fiddlerwoaroof 2016-12-09T11:29:48Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:29:51Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T11:30:11Z myrkraverk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T11:31:13Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:34:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:35:33Z ASau`` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T11:42:54Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T11:45:11Z jdz: malice: if you're using slime there's a ,cd command. 2016-12-09T11:45:52Z malice: wow, thanks jdz! 2016-12-09T11:45:56Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:48:24Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:49:34Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-12-09T11:51:19Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-09T12:01:15Z varjag: ,sayoonara 2016-12-09T12:01:16Z varjag: :) 2016-12-09T12:01:30Z varjag: had no idea 2016-12-09T12:02:27Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:05:52Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:10:30Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T12:10:46Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T12:11:20Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:13:01Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:14:19Z impulse- joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:19:55Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:24:05Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T12:31:43Z Xach: malice: when you make pathnames, you provide a bunch of pieces to assemble. there's an option, :defaults, from which any otherwise unspecified pieces are taken. the pathname defaults. 2016-12-09T12:31:52Z Xach: the special variable provides the default value for those pathname defaults. 2016-12-09T12:32:01Z Xach: *default-pathname-defaults* 2016-12-09T12:32:54Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:36:30Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T12:41:38Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:43:09Z msb joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:45:54Z malice: Xach: thanks 2016-12-09T12:46:00Z malice: actually I was using sdl2:load-bmp 2016-12-09T12:46:03Z malice: so yeah, no :defaults for me 2016-12-09T12:46:06Z malice: but thanks for the info 2016-12-09T12:46:11Z d4gg4d quit 2016-12-09T12:46:27Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2016-12-09T12:46:33Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T12:47:52Z Xach never got to explain the merging behavior of all filesystem operations :~( 2016-12-09T12:49:21Z papachan: jdz didn't know about ,cd. thats great 2016-12-09T12:57:00Z trig-ger quit 2016-12-09T12:57:14Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:00:23Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:00:55Z attila_lendvai: Xach: maybe you can consult me whether this change makes sense in ansi-tests: in logical pathname translations, "aux;*.*" -> "aux;*.*.*" because SBCL complained for soemthing .NEWEST not matching NIL 2016-12-09T13:05:03Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:05:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:06:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:07:33Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:10:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:12:44Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:14:20Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:15:56Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:20:22Z rvirding quit 2016-12-09T13:20:37Z rvirding joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:29:25Z lancetw quit 2016-12-09T13:29:49Z lancetw joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:30:12Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-12-09T13:31:24Z attila_lendvai: is there anybody around who has knowledge/opinion about the ansi-tests project? I'm trying it with various lisps and I keep fixing stuff about how it's loading itself... why is this that bitrotten on e.g. SBCL? 2016-12-09T13:34:39Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: where did you get ansi-tests from? 2016-12-09T13:34:58Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test 2016-12-09T13:35:15Z jackdaniel: I've recently refactored it a little, but it's a big project 2016-12-09T13:35:28Z jackdaniel: well, "recently" 2016-12-09T13:35:42Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: that means you have unmerged patches relative to that^ repo, right? 2016-12-09T13:36:01Z jackdaniel: no, I mean I've merged them and they are in that repo 2016-12-09T13:36:50Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: is it a good idea to have all those logical pathnames in it? it gives me various different headaches on different lisps... 2016-12-09T13:36:51Z jackdaniel: I made a mistake of adding logical-pathnames there which I want to revert 2016-12-09T13:37:01Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: do you have the commit right? 2016-12-09T13:37:05Z jackdaniel: yes 2016-12-09T13:37:23Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: where do you prefer pull requests? 2016-12-09T13:37:24Z jackdaniel: no, it's not a good idea :) 2016-12-09T13:37:43Z jackdaniel: against the cl.net main repository 2016-12-09T13:37:54Z jackdaniel: (the one you linked above) 2016-12-09T13:39:13Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: is it supposed to run smoothly on main lisps like SBCL? I already have numerous small fixes: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alendvai/ansi-test/commits/attila 2016-12-09T13:39:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:39:55Z jackdaniel: brb 2016-12-09T13:40:17Z jackdaniel: (I run it with makefile, asd system is abcl's thing I think) 2016-12-09T13:40:58Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T13:41:36Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:44:14Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:46:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-12-09T13:47:37Z jackdaniel: . 2016-12-09T13:55:39Z milanj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:04:33Z younder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-09T14:06:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:07:27Z drmeister: Is there a way to get all primary methods for a generic function sorted from least specific to most specific? 2016-12-09T14:11:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-12-09T14:12:29Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:20:20Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-12-09T14:20:48Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T14:22:31Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:23:10Z beach: drmeister: As pointed out to you, the relative specificity of methods depends on the classes of the arguments. 2016-12-09T14:23:39Z drmeister: Right - got it. 2016-12-09T14:24:05Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T14:25:29Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:26:07Z varjag: what's the status of clisp 2016-12-09T14:26:44Z varjag: i see it's still on sourceforge 2016-12-09T14:30:34Z jackdaniel: varjag: afaik they have found a student for GSoC and they plan to make a release 2016-12-09T14:30:39Z jackdaniel: check out their mailing list 2016-12-09T14:31:18Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:32:28Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T14:34:17Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-09T14:34:25Z gendl quit 2016-12-09T14:34:41Z gendl joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:34:44Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:34:44Z klltkr quit (Changing host) 2016-12-09T14:34:44Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:37:03Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:37:15Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:37:16Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:38:20Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2016-12-09T14:39:33Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:42:50Z MorTal1ty quit 2016-12-09T14:43:14Z MorTal1ty joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:46:29Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T14:47:10Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T14:47:24Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:47:41Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T14:48:36Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:49:04Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:53:13Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T14:57:04Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:04:48Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-09T15:07:11Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:07:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:07:26Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T15:07:33Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-12-09T15:07:45Z AJavaIdiot joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:08:38Z wty joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:10:05Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:11:16Z wty left #lisp 2016-12-09T15:11:40Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:13:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-12-09T15:15:06Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:15:17Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T15:19:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:22:24Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T15:23:23Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-12-09T15:26:29Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-12-09T15:27:57Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:33:03Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:38:07Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:44:50Z gracefu joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:46:25Z varjag: jackdaniel: i see, thanks 2016-12-09T15:49:43Z gracefu: hm... i've been trying to figure out the rules for lambdas and the mechanism behind why variables get shadowed at whatnot. i think i figured it out though... is it right to say that you can convert ((lambda x e) arg) --> (let ((x arg)) e) ? 2016-12-09T15:50:25Z gracefu: so in a way a lambda call is like putting x=arg in the environment and just evaluating e? 2016-12-09T15:50:28Z beach: gracefu: No, (lambda x e) is not a valid lambda expression because x is not a valid lambda list. 2016-12-09T15:50:41Z gracefu: oh uhh 2016-12-09T15:50:55Z gracefu: ((lambda (x) e) arg) --> (let ((x arg)) e) 2016-12-09T15:50:55Z beach: ((lambda (x) e) arg) 2016-12-09T15:50:55Z gracefu: xP 2016-12-09T15:51:18Z unbalanced joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:51:24Z unbalanced quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-09T15:51:25Z gracefu: would that be correct for any kind of x, e, and arg? 2016-12-09T15:51:31Z beach: gracefu: I think you are basically right, but the term for that is "bind", not "shadow" 2016-12-09T15:51:36Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-12-09T15:51:52Z unbalanced joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:52:08Z beach: "x is bound to the value of arg when e is evaluated" 2016-12-09T15:52:39Z gracefu: right, i was thinking in context of something like (let ((x 1) (y 2)) ((lambda (x) x) y)) 2016-12-09T15:52:57Z gracefu: in this case the x in the lambda is a new binding 2016-12-09T15:53:04Z gracefu: i think in other langs we say the first x is shadowed 2016-12-09T15:53:33Z beach: Let me check that terminology... 2016-12-09T15:53:43Z gracefu: hehe it doesn't matter anyways :p 2016-12-09T15:53:46Z gracefu: thanks 2016-12-09T15:54:20Z beach: Yes, you are right. The term for that is indeed "shadow" also in Common Lisp. 2016-12-09T15:54:38Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-09T15:54:38Z beach: shadow v.t. 1. to override the meaning of. ``That binding of X shadows an outer one.'' 2016-12-09T15:54:38Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:55:10Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-12-09T15:55:10Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:55:49Z unbalanced quit (Client Quit) 2016-12-09T15:56:19Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:56:20Z gracefu: \o/ 2016-12-09T15:57:32Z gracefu: i started reading a lot of lisp related documents earlier today because i'm writing (yet another) lisp variant 2016-12-09T15:57:36Z gracefu: just for practice 2016-12-09T15:57:38Z gracefu: heh 2016-12-09T15:58:19Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-12-09T15:58:42Z gracefu: i think next i'll have to look into lisp internals, unless the cons cell is literally the only thing ever, in which case i'll have to look into how to set up the environment and implementing eval and the like 2016-12-09T15:58:51Z gracefu: ciao 2016-12-09T15:58:56Z unbalanced joined #lisp 2016-12-09T15:59:51Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:00:06Z beach: Do you have any good books to read? 2016-12-09T16:00:16Z gracefu: nope, just spamming google 2016-12-09T16:00:22Z gracefu: about to start reading http://www.buildyourownlisp.com/contents 2016-12-09T16:01:00Z gracefu: the roots of lisp was rather interesting... i read that twice :P 2016-12-09T16:01:13Z jackdaniel: minion: tell gracefu about pcl 2016-12-09T16:01:13Z minion: gracefu: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2016-12-09T16:01:34Z gracefu: wow 2016-12-09T16:01:37Z beach: jackdaniel: It looks like he will be writing it in C and not in Lisp. 2016-12-09T16:01:46Z gracefu: python 2016-12-09T16:01:55Z gracefu: it's all the same anyways 2016-12-09T16:02:03Z beach: Is it? 2016-12-09T16:02:11Z gracefu: ... feels like it xP 2016-12-09T16:02:39Z gracefu: especially since my toy lang's just going to be ultra esoteric 2016-12-09T16:02:41Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:02:47Z gracefu: details don't really matter 2016-12-09T16:06:12Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2016-12-09T16:08:01Z ragepandemic: I actually read some of "Lisp in Small Pieces" and it was really interesting 2016-12-09T16:08:22Z ragepandemic: don't know if that's useful to you 2016-12-09T16:09:16Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T16:09:42Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:09:46Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2016-12-09T16:10:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:11:58Z Xach: Lisp in Small Pieces is nice. 2016-12-09T16:12:52Z beach got the impression that gracefu is not interested in a book. 2016-12-09T16:13:09Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:14:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-12-09T16:15:34Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:15:45Z circ-user-QaADT joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:18:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:20:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T16:21:00Z ragepandemic: Xach, I only read the first 2 chapters, but I really enjoyed it. I ended up writing my own map function using only lambdas, if and cons 2016-12-09T16:21:11Z ragepandemic: and eq? 2016-12-09T16:21:31Z terpri joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:23:23Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-12-09T16:23:43Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2016-12-09T16:29:04Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-12-09T16:32:41Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-12-09T16:32:56Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T16:34:06Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T16:35:02Z unbalanced quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-12-09T16:36:47Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:37:55Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:45:08Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-12-09T16:49:31Z hlavaty left #lisp 2016-12-09T16:58:06Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-12-09T16:59:58Z floatingman quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-12-09T17:01:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T17:02:36Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:02:46Z bamorim joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:04:28Z floatingman joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:04:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:12:10Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:13:13Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-12-09T17:16:06Z ovidnis` joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:17:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:22:23Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:25:35Z klltkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-12-09T17:25:49Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:27:55Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-12-09T17:29:14Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-12-09T17:30:40Z failproneshark joined #lisp 2016-12-09T17:31:00Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-12-09T17:31:59Z BusFactor1: If I'm using cl-who, and I have a script text loaded into a variable, can I not go (:script +script-source+) to include it in the output? If I put a "string" like (:script "string") the string shows up encolsed in