2016-11-01T00:01:22Z raydeejay: is that about the transformation priority premise, or only tagentially related? 2016-11-01T00:01:38Z White_Flame: pankracy_: which would make the tests even harder to write with more initialization 2016-11-01T00:02:01Z White_Flame: in any case, I still think you're talking about multiple layers at once, and not a specific place for them 2016-11-01T00:02:10Z White_Flame: it still smells like full-system testing, for a deliverable system of a library 2016-11-01T00:03:13Z White_Flame: the "unit" level, at least as implied by the wiki page and my understanding, is not useful to spend time on testing. Those bugs can be found and fixed quickly from normal use or larger tests 2016-11-01T00:05:01Z pankracy_: how many lisp programmers do you have in your project? 2016-11-01T00:05:25Z White_Flame: we had up to 6 at once, I believe 2016-11-01T00:05:45Z pankracy_: and you're not writing tests? 2016-11-01T00:05:50Z White_Flame: not unit tests 2016-11-01T00:06:00Z pankracy_: so what are you writing? 2016-11-01T00:06:08Z White_Flame: full system tests 2016-11-01T00:06:42Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:06:51Z pankracy_: what do you mean by that? how long do they perform? 2016-11-01T00:07:18Z White_Flame: we're still working on automation of such 2016-11-01T00:07:38Z White_Flame: but it's mostly regression testing, performance testing, and smoke testing 2016-11-01T00:08:23Z pankracy_: and how long does it take to you to get information about bug in the piece of code you have just written and committed? 2016-11-01T00:08:47Z White_Flame: depends on the piece of code and the bug, but usually interactively 2016-11-01T00:09:34Z White_Flame: how much time do you put into fine-grained testing, vs time saved in tests highlighting difficult-to-find bugs to you? 2016-11-01T00:10:16Z White_Flame: (and why would you commit before bug testing?) 2016-11-01T00:10:19Z pankracy_: I'm not doing 100% coverage testing, I told you 2016-11-01T00:10:38Z pankracy_: because you can't test everything 2016-11-01T00:10:43Z White_Flame: then how do you correlate time to get information about bugs you commit? 2016-11-01T00:10:49Z pankracy_: you can't test edge cases by debugging code 2016-11-01T00:11:01Z White_Flame: if you don't have faith that yoru tests will exercise them? 2016-11-01T00:11:28Z pankracy_: I'm just putting my knowledge about previous fails into tests 2016-11-01T00:11:31Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:11:35Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:11:38Z White_Flame: it's basically always the same answer: "Well, if something breaks, we start to look into it" 2016-11-01T00:11:38Z pankracy_: so I don't need debug my code anymore manually 2016-11-01T00:11:51Z White_Flame: right, that's regression testing 2016-11-01T00:12:11Z White_Flame: but saying that means you don't have to do manual debugging? that's quite a wild claim 2016-11-01T00:12:14Z pankracy_: I had different view about regression testing 2016-11-01T00:12:19Z ikki joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:12:30Z pankracy_: I'm nevice in lisp 2016-11-01T00:12:37Z White_Flame: regression means that something that works doesn't stop working, and that something that was broken & fixed doesn't re-break 2016-11-01T00:12:59Z pankracy_: but in many different languages I wasn't doing any manual debugging 2016-11-01T00:13:14Z White_Flame: then how did bugs get found & fixed? 2016-11-01T00:13:26Z pankracy_: units 2016-11-01T00:13:28Z White_Flame: the only non-manual solutions I could think of would involve AI :) 2016-11-01T00:13:45Z White_Flame: you're starting to get pretty circular 2016-11-01T00:13:57Z pankracy_: I told you, I'm nevice in lisp 2016-11-01T00:14:11Z White_Flame: so units don't have 100% coverage,a nd aren't at the "unit" level, according to wiki and others' descriptions. You don't have faith for your tests to fully exercise code which might be bugged. 2016-11-01T00:14:18Z White_Flame: this really isn't lisp-specific 2016-11-01T00:14:21Z pankracy_: in Java/Python/Elixir/C# and many other languages I've used unit tests 2016-11-01T00:14:38Z White_Flame: so units as you described literally cannot achieve "no more manual dbugging" for you 2016-11-01T00:15:13Z pankracy_: I'm just saying I don't care about 100% coverage because 100% coverage doesn't matter 2016-11-01T00:15:20Z pankracy_: use cases matters 2016-11-01T00:15:25Z pankracy_: *matter 2016-11-01T00:15:38Z pankracy_: I develop function for specific use cases 2016-11-01T00:15:39Z White_Flame: and the cartesian of use cases tend to be unsearchable with 100% coverage 2016-11-01T00:15:50Z pankracy_: and it they pass tests, they just work fine 2016-11-01T00:15:53Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T00:16:04Z White_Flame: but that goes against what you said about not being able to test edge cases 2016-11-01T00:16:05Z pankracy_: sometimes yes 2016-11-01T00:16:09Z White_Flame: and edge cases aren't precluded by use cases 2016-11-01T00:16:39Z pankracy_: sometimes I get more than 100% coverage, of course it happens, but sometimes I don't care about edges because nobody use this 2016-11-01T00:16:54Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:17:12Z White_Flame: edge case bugs are found within valid use cases 2016-11-01T00:17:37Z White_Flame: "Oh, the user happened to click the commit button exactly at midnight, and the date was different in these 2 calls" etc 2016-11-01T00:18:37Z Anselmo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-11-01T00:18:38Z White_Flame: "This filename happened to match some internal indicator that we didn't think would ever be used" 2016-11-01T00:18:38Z White_Flame: etc 2016-11-01T00:18:38Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:18:38Z pankracy_: or I test it in integration tests 2016-11-01T00:18:39Z pankracy_: or QAs report such things 2016-11-01T00:18:39Z pankracy_: this is already gone to flamewar, I'm sorry but I need to go to sleep 2016-11-01T00:18:39Z pankracy_: it was nice to exchange opinions :) 2016-11-01T00:18:53Z watersoul quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-11-01T00:19:00Z watersoul_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:19:06Z White_Flame: Not flaming, just arguing :) 2016-11-01T00:19:11Z White_Flame: in the more formal sense 2016-11-01T00:19:20Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:19:49Z pankracy_: if you're telling me that by debugging code you can test more edges than by unit tests 2016-11-01T00:20:03Z pankracy_: than I can say that you're amazing developer 2016-11-01T00:20:07Z pankracy_: :) 2016-11-01T00:20:13Z White_Flame: My argument is that unit tests waste far more time than they save 2016-11-01T00:20:17Z White_Flame: developer time 2016-11-01T00:20:44Z White_Flame: and therefore really don't bring value, and tend to be a management-oriented distraction, hoping to turn skill into policy 2016-11-01T00:21:15Z pankracy_: I execute dozens of tests in less than second 2016-11-01T00:21:32Z pankracy_: you can debug each case with slime in less than a second 2016-11-01T00:21:36Z pankracy_: you're amazing :) 2016-11-01T00:21:39Z White_Flame: you have to spend time designing & writing tests, and ensuring they're part of the test harness 2016-11-01T00:22:11Z White_Flame: and part of my argument is that the value of that decreases as the complexity of the project domain increases 2016-11-01T00:22:31Z White_Flame: because more time is spent testing when greater complexity is involved 2016-11-01T00:22:41Z White_Flame: s/testing/writing tests/ 2016-11-01T00:22:43Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T00:23:33Z pankracy_: that's because you can assume that if you didn't test your code, it doesn't work at all 2016-11-01T00:23:39Z White_Flame: most tests will pass, so a full-use exercising of the system will suss out any little bugs 2016-11-01T00:23:43Z pankracy_: so testing is major part of delivering software 2016-11-01T00:23:47Z pankracy_: not writing code 2016-11-01T00:24:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds) 2016-11-01T00:24:13Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T00:24:38Z pankracy_: I can tell you that I can write software for spaceship in 10 minutes 2016-11-01T00:24:47Z pankracy_: how can you tell that I'm not 2016-11-01T00:24:49Z pankracy_: ? 2016-11-01T00:25:16Z White_Flame: I will agree that ensuring that the code you write is correct is a major part of delivering software. However, interacting with the software vs formalizing tests and patting yourself on the back for the quantity of always-passing tests is to be argued 2016-11-01T00:25:30Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:25:38Z pankracy_: specification is everything 2016-11-01T00:25:48Z pankracy_: tests are specification 2016-11-01T00:25:52Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T00:25:53Z White_Flame: specification is waterfall 2016-11-01T00:26:14Z pankracy_: not if customer pays for specific features 2016-11-01T00:26:23Z White_Flame: sure, but you're also talking about interanlly 2016-11-01T00:26:39Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-11-01T00:26:42Z White_Flame: I've never said anything bad about full-system tests, specification, and validation 2016-11-01T00:26:54Z pankracy_: internal library can become external if you put it on the github 2016-11-01T00:26:58Z Bike: don't stay up too late, pankracy. 2016-11-01T00:27:09Z pankracy_: xD 2016-11-01T00:27:34Z pankracy_: I need to sleep, thanks for watching for me Bike xD 2016-11-01T00:27:44Z pankracy_: good night :D 2016-11-01T00:27:47Z White_Flame: anyway, I won't keep you up longer either :) 2016-11-01T00:29:31Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-11-01T00:32:52Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:33:29Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:34:13Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T00:34:44Z reinisch quit (Quit: reinisch) 2016-11-01T00:35:47Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T00:36:20Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:36:53Z sdothum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T00:37:21Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-11-01T00:38:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:39:00Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T00:39:32Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T00:39:32Z deadk is now known as e 2016-11-01T00:39:33Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T00:39:40Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:39:43Z mrottenkolber: Hi 2016-11-01T00:39:56Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T00:40:00Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:40:34Z Xach_: aloha 2016-11-01T00:40:42Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T00:40:54Z Blkt joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:41:25Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:42:43Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:42:54Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-01T00:44:22Z edgar-rft: ʻŌlelo anei ʻoe i ka ʻōlelo Pelekāne? 2016-11-01T00:48:16Z mrottenkolber: So I want to remove an item from a list and tell if it has been in there in the first place, I came up with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/330011 I feel like there has to be a simpler way. 2016-11-01T00:48:34Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2016-11-01T00:49:23Z mrottenkolber: I know of a beautiful C implementation but that requires double pointer indirection, which I can’t substitute AFAIK 2016-11-01T00:52:16Z White_Flame: REMOVE will act on any sequence, not just lists. A C implementation with such indirection would presumably only work on arrays, too 2016-11-01T00:52:45Z White_Flame: if you roll your own with cons cell walking, instead of REMOVE, you can be quite elegant and direct, and locked to only processing lists 2016-11-01T00:53:06Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2016-11-01T00:53:33Z cromachina: and why is that not simple, whereas pointer arithmetic is considered so? 2016-11-01T00:53:35Z White_Flame: that type of indirection in Lisp probably entails holding on to a reference to a containing cons cell, and could very likely be comparable to the structure of the C version 2016-11-01T00:54:07Z cromachina: if you want to type less, you can use lambda too 2016-11-01T00:54:10Z White_Flame: pointer arithmetic is an incredibly low-level operation that has almost no abstractions linked to it. It's incredibly simple and tends to be quite dangerous 2016-11-01T00:54:41Z edgar-rft: in Lisp, a "list" is a pointer to the first element, and MEMBER returns the pointer to the Element occuring first in the list 2016-11-01T00:54:58Z White_Flame: for removal, though, you'd need to hold on to the prior cons cell 2016-11-01T00:55:18Z White_Flame: I think that the pasted version is perfectly reasonable for on that defers to REMOVE 2016-11-01T00:55:41Z cromachina: we mean simple as two different things i guess 2016-11-01T00:56:23Z White_Flame: I tend to use "simple" as Rich Hickey does. Basically, "contains fewer parts" 2016-11-01T00:57:03Z White_Flame: oh, was your original comment to mrottenkolber, and not me? if so, then yeah I'd tend to agree 2016-11-01T00:57:03Z cromachina: that's still vague 2016-11-01T00:57:49Z mrottenkolber: https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*GHFLYFB3vDQeakMyUGPglw.png <- elegant C version 2016-11-01T00:58:12Z mrottenkolber: kinda cool imho 2016-11-01T00:58:15Z White_Flame: that doesn't give you a boolean 2016-11-01T00:58:26Z White_Flame: and that's basically what happens behind the scenes anyway 2016-11-01T00:58:34Z cromachina: and only works on lists, again 2016-11-01T00:58:56Z White_Flame: also, it's destructive, which wasn't clear from your request 2016-11-01T00:59:13Z _death: you could write that using locatives.. 2016-11-01T01:00:19Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:00:19Z mrottenkolber: _death: ah I just remembered cool 2016-11-01T01:00:48Z White_Flame: since REMOVE is non-destructive, I assumed that was what you were going for 2016-11-01T01:02:02Z mrottenkolber: I had kind of hoped I missed a more obvious solution, kinda felt like something common I could not find the built-in function for 2016-11-01T01:02:36Z theseb quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-11-01T01:03:28Z mrottenkolber: looking at the C version again it seems kind of broken, what if entry does not exists. it will try to dereference NULL no? 2016-11-01T01:04:11Z _death: yes.. guess a precondition is that entry exists in the list 2016-11-01T01:04:38Z mrottenkolber: Weird that I need this function twice in my current hobby project and apparently its not very common. 2016-11-01T01:04:53Z White_Flame: The C version doesn't do what your pasted code does. YOur pasted code returns a bool on removal, and creates a (tail-shared) copy of the list 2016-11-01T01:05:21Z White_Flame: walk the conses and remove the next, using the exact same loop as C, using car & cdr instead of pointer walking. Same algorithm applies 2016-11-01T01:05:44Z cromachina: mrottenkolber: curious as to your use case for that, if you don't mind telling 2016-11-01T01:06:17Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-01T01:08:11Z mrottenkolber: cromachina: not at all, the first case is hard to explain without context, but in the second case I have a pool of reserved addresses and I want to claim one of these, claiming an address thats not in the pool is an error. RESERVE pushes to a list, CLAIM needs said REMOVE variant. 2016-11-01T01:09:27Z mrottenkolber: I could use REMF maybe 2016-11-01T01:09:28Z _death: you may also want :count 1 2016-11-01T01:09:50Z mrottenkolber: I should use REMF 2016-11-01T01:09:59Z mrottenkolber: hmm 2016-11-01T01:10:24Z cromachina: maybe a set or hash-table would be more appropriate 2016-11-01T01:12:00Z cromachina: it would provide both fast random access and removal, as well as the interface you desire 2016-11-01T01:14:07Z mrottenkolber: cromachina: in the explained case that might actually be a good choice 2016-11-01T01:17:38Z cromachina: now im really curious about the first case 2016-11-01T01:21:52Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T01:23:04Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T01:23:49Z ikki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T01:24:18Z jason_m: With cffi, is it possible to pass a pointer to a lisp object when calling a foreign function? (In particular, I'd love to pass a pointer to a lisp stream.) 2016-11-01T01:25:07Z jason_m: I would do this because I have a lisp implementation for a callback function, and the callback function allows for passing an arbitrary pointer (void*) 2016-11-01T01:25:24Z jason_m: So I would pass the stream from lisp, to c, and then back to lisp again 2016-11-01T01:25:30Z mrottenkolber: cromachina: https://github.com/eugeneia/erlangen/blob/reliable-spawn/agent.lisp#L166 2016-11-01T01:26:01Z cromachina: i recall this being asked before, and the general consensus was that you cannot trust the GC to not move objects around 2016-11-01T01:26:41Z cromachina: jason_m: an alternative is to pass an identifier that maps to your object in a table 2016-11-01T01:27:18Z jason_m: cromachina: yes, that's an alternative i was considering. or a very simple approach is to bind a special variable. 2016-11-01T01:27:40Z jason_m: but that's less flexible 2016-11-01T01:28:02Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-01T01:28:23Z cromachina: if you are fixed to a particular implementation and dont mind non-portable code, then you can see if it has an option to pin an object in the collector 2016-11-01T01:30:07Z Xisiqomelir joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:30:46Z jason_m: i primarily use sbcl and this is just a hobby project, but keeping things portable seems preferable. i think passing the identifier / table approach seems like the way to go. thanks for pointing out the potential trouble stemming from GC. 2016-11-01T01:31:04Z cromachina: np 2016-11-01T01:31:12Z cromachina: related SO question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21665636/store-a-pointer-to-lisp-object-in-system-area-memory 2016-11-01T01:33:07Z cromachina: mrottenkolber: i wrote something like this as well for a personal project and just blindly removed links 2016-11-01T01:33:15Z Xisiqomelir left #lisp 2016-11-01T01:33:35Z biocage joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:33:58Z cromachina: my channels had a memory leak and i never bothered trying to fix it.. actors also made debugging difficult 2016-11-01T01:34:10Z cromachina: at least my implementation of them did 2016-11-01T01:35:06Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:36:08Z cromachina: my erlang envy was short lived 2016-11-01T01:36:20Z mrottenkolber: cromachina: I am taking things slow and so far it looks good 2016-11-01T01:36:42Z mrottenkolber: I am in the process of making SPAWN over the network reliable 2016-11-01T01:37:08Z mrottenkolber: so far I learned that erlang is the way it is for a reason 2016-11-01T01:37:29Z mrottenkolber: that my initial goals were naive 2016-11-01T01:37:34Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:38:06Z cromachina: have you tried LFE? 2016-11-01T01:38:10Z mrottenkolber: I am now knowingly creating a leak because I don’t know a way to avoid it 2016-11-01T01:39:30Z mrottenkolber: cromachina: no, well, I have an existing CL app that I would like to continue to develop, but for that to be feasible it must be reliable. 2016-11-01T01:43:02Z mrottenkolber: I could probably try to just find the bug and not develop a whole distributed message passing framework, but it would be annoying if there was another bug after that and I wish I had rather spent the time solving the actual problem that its hard to write fault-tolerant programs without proper tools. 2016-11-01T01:44:18Z cromachina: it's give and take. my program is an irc bot, and i thought certain portions of it could fit the actor model well 2016-11-01T01:44:35Z cromachina: it worked well except for the leak 2016-11-01T01:44:44Z AeroNotix: cromachina: LFE is horrific 2016-11-01T01:45:04Z AeroNotix: It's a terrible lisp and offers absotutely zero improvements over Erlang 2016-11-01T01:45:09Z cromachina: then i reverted back to my threading model and covered my fault cases 2016-11-01T01:45:20Z cromachina: damn, what a shame 2016-11-01T01:45:43Z AeroNotix: There are good concurrency libraries for CL, though. I forget off the top of my head but there are good coroutine/actor libraries. 2016-11-01T01:46:07Z AeroNotix: Coupled with the pattern matching libs you can make a lisp that's a million times better than LFE can ever hope to reach 2016-11-01T01:46:29Z cromachina: yeah, i use optima heavily 2016-11-01T01:46:30Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T01:46:34Z mrottenkolber: my app slurps all sydication feeds it can find and does some statistical analysis, when it gets stuck I get gaps in the feeds, when there are gaps the analysis is... degraded. I really need to avoid downtime as much as possible. hence the groundwork. 2016-11-01T01:46:40Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:46:43Z cromachina: the actor libs on quicklisp are kinda weak 2016-11-01T01:46:49Z AeroNotix: If you're interested in the BEAM, I would suggest using Erlang itself and staying away from LFE 2016-11-01T01:47:04Z cromachina: and it doesnt help that threading models of most lisps use OS threads 2016-11-01T01:47:28Z AeroNotix: mrottenkolber: to develop a fault tolerant application you need to define what fault tolerant means to you 2016-11-01T01:47:35Z cromachina: so you cant abuse processes like in erlang, or sparks in haskell 2016-11-01T01:47:47Z mrottenkolber: well for my use case supervision trees are the core feature 2016-11-01T01:47:57Z AeroNotix: the BEAM can only offer so much, people use the terms "fault tolerant" in Erlang without really thinking what it means 2016-11-01T01:48:00Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:48:11Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-11-01T01:48:21Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:48:23Z AeroNotix: even with Erlang, depending on the application you can still have downtime and skipped processing. It merely gives you the tools to deal with failures better than other platforms. 2016-11-01T01:48:37Z mrottenkolber: well duh? 2016-11-01T01:48:46Z AeroNotix: well fuck off? Just trying to help. 2016-11-01T01:49:35Z cromachina: no need to get salty, ladies :^) 2016-11-01T01:49:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-01T01:49:49Z mrottenkolber: :^) 2016-11-01T01:50:15Z raydeejay: someone needs to have the glasses checked 2016-11-01T01:51:55Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-01T01:52:25Z AeroNotix: just usual scrubs with their "well duh" shit like they know everything all the time. Salty yes. Always happens in channels like this 2016-11-01T01:52:42Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-11-01T01:53:23Z AeroNotix: dude thinks he's going to magically get a distributed message passing library working on CL without even thinking what makes Erlang work 2016-11-01T01:53:40Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T01:54:09Z raydeejay: black majick and brute force 2016-11-01T01:54:12Z raydeejay: :D 2016-11-01T01:56:15Z cromachina: any lparallel devs in here? 2016-11-01T01:56:33Z AeroNotix: lparallel is the thing I was thinking of before. 2016-11-01T01:56:47Z AeroNotix: you got an issue with it? 2016-11-01T01:57:18Z AeroNotix: cromachina: worked quite well for the small use-cases I had for it in the past. 2016-11-01T01:57:46Z cromachina: yeah, so i use it for image processing and generation. the obvious choice for running some routine over cells in an image-like array is pmap 2016-11-01T01:58:06Z cromachina: but i found i did not get the fine grain parallelism i wanted, since each cell could have drastically different run-time 2016-11-01T01:58:17Z cromachina: i ended up using a channel 2016-11-01T01:58:29Z cromachina: and pushing each cell into it, which evened out the worker load 2016-11-01T01:58:37Z cromachina: it seems that pmap breaks things into chunks 2016-11-01T01:58:40Z mrottenkolber: AeroNotix: I really didn’t mean to offend, just imply I have spent some time thinking about this 2016-11-01T01:58:45Z cromachina: would be nice to just be able to specify the chunk size 2016-11-01T01:58:46Z AeroNotix: mrottenkolber: k 2016-11-01T01:59:41Z _death: cromachina: you can, iirc 2016-11-01T01:59:48Z cromachina: oh? 2016-11-01T02:00:21Z AeroNotix: mrottenkolber: What I'm saying is that depending on your definition of fault tolerance, this CL library might make sense. Implementing the distributed messaging is only part of a number of things Erlang gives you. 2016-11-01T02:01:15Z AeroNotix: I don't have experience with this particular library but I'm very familiar with Erlang. I sincerely doubt that this library emulates enough of the required pieces to get the same guarantees. 2016-11-01T02:01:39Z _death: cromachina: you can provide :parts/:size keywords before the sequences 2016-11-01T02:05:08Z cromachina: oh, that's what i get for skimming 2016-11-01T02:05:24Z cromachina: i wish they used the same word through out the document! 2016-11-01T02:05:27Z cromachina: 'chunks' 2016-11-01T02:08:19Z cromachina: hmm it also seems the :parts is the inverse of what i want to specify 2016-11-01T02:08:49Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:09:05Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-01T02:10:59Z mrottenkolber: AeroNotix: its a work in progress, currently it definitely does not 2016-11-01T02:11:54Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:12:08Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-11-01T02:12:08Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:12:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:16:56Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T02:29:34Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:30:24Z akkad: pine 2016-11-01T02:30:42Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:34:26Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T02:37:32Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T02:39:24Z loke joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:39:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:42:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-11-01T02:43:29Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-01T02:43:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T02:45:17Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T02:49:57Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T02:59:04Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-01T03:04:08Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T03:06:43Z taij33n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T03:18:26Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-11-01T03:21:00Z lnostdal quit (Quit: lnostdal) 2016-11-01T03:24:45Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-11-01T03:26:32Z nrp3c joined #lisp 2016-11-01T03:43:59Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-01T03:48:34Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T03:58:52Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T04:01:56Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T04:07:08Z Ando_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T04:07:48Z loke joined #lisp 2016-11-01T04:10:02Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T04:10:53Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T04:13:11Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-01T04:17:41Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T04:20:21Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-01T04:26:55Z stardiviner quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-11-01T04:39:40Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T04:40:19Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-01T04:47:05Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-01T04:47:33Z eivarv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T05:00:29Z ScaryBitch quit (Quit: Booom!) 2016-11-01T05:03:05Z reinisch quit (Quit: reinisch) 2016-11-01T05:10:21Z anton__ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T05:10:50Z anton__ quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T05:24:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T05:24:56Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T05:27:20Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T05:28:55Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-01T05:30:57Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-01T05:33:22Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T05:41:10Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T05:43:11Z loke: Hello Lisp! 2016-11-01T05:50:54Z kori left #lisp 2016-11-01T05:58:32Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:07:12Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-01T06:08:25Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:11:55Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:11:55Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T06:15:34Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T06:18:00Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T06:18:07Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:19:46Z White_Flame: Hello, Joe. Oh wait, that's #erlang 2016-11-01T06:21:49Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T06:27:06Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T06:27:12Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:28:50Z eivarv quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T06:32:48Z NeverDie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T06:33:30Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:37:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:38:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:38:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:41:15Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T06:44:39Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:45:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:54:55Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:58:10Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-11-01T06:59:31Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T07:00:21Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-01T07:13:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T07:16:37Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T07:25:18Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T07:25:24Z z3r0_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T07:25:26Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-11-01T07:25:55Z loke: HELLO Beach 2016-11-01T07:27:53Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T07:31:22Z GoZoner joined #lisp 2016-11-01T07:35:40Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T07:35:41Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-01T07:38:48Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T07:38:59Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-11-01T07:40:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-01T07:43:04Z thijso joined #lisp 2016-11-01T07:43:36Z GoZoner quit (Quit: Gone to sleep. 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#\Nul? 2016-11-01T09:00:52Z phoe_: #\Nul is basically the char whose code is 0. 2016-11-01T09:01:16Z phoe_: (code-char 0) ;=> #\Nul 2016-11-01T09:01:31Z phoe_: If that's what you're asking for. 2016-11-01T09:02:19Z shka joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:02:41Z z3r0_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T09:02:45Z flip214: yeah, thanks. 2016-11-01T09:02:51Z flip214: Problem with highlightning. 2016-11-01T09:03:02Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:07:42Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T09:17:38Z superancetre joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:19:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:21:32Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-01T09:23:21Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T09:26:44Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:26:44Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T09:27:10Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:33:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:49:01Z taij33n joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:56:50Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T09:57:42Z tfeb joined #lisp 2016-11-01T09:58:34Z tfeb quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T10:05:14Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T10:07:10Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T10:07:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:12:05Z _mjl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-01T10:18:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:21:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:23:08Z M-moredhel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T10:23:09Z lugus35[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T10:23:09Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T10:25:48Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:26:17Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:26:27Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:26:44Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T10:27:34Z prole joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:28:12Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:29:34Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:29:45Z nerk joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:29:46Z yoosi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T10:30:17Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:32:51Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T10:33:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:34:03Z nerk quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T10:34:09Z tessier joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:37:50Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T10:51:41Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:53:28Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:53:34Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:53:35Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-11-01T10:54:00Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T10:54:28Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T10:55:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:02:55Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T11:03:13Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:03:49Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:04:13Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:04:18Z z3r0_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T11:04:23Z klltkr: Hello 2016-11-01T11:05:24Z rjid: Hello klltkr. 2016-11-01T11:07:28Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:08:26Z lugus35[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T11:08:27Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T11:08:27Z M-Illandan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T11:08:27Z M-moredhel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T11:10:07Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:10:08Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:10:53Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:11:51Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:12:08Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-11-01T11:12:42Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:14:50Z rjid quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-11-01T11:15:34Z xuxuru quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:16:22Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T11:18:22Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:20:26Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:22:44Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:22:51Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:23:46Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:24:13Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:34:49Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:39:59Z des_consolado: hey I'm in guile in geiser in emacs, and I'm trying (iota 4 2.5 2) as it says here: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/SRFI_002d1-Constructors.html 2016-11-01T11:39:59Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:40:09Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T11:40:14Z des_consolado: I'm getting a wrong number of arguments, it only takes one argument apparently :( 2016-11-01T11:40:40Z des_consolado: what should I do to check my version/implementation and all that sort of thing? 2016-11-01T11:41:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:43:36Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:45:45Z beach: des_consolado: This channel is for Common Lisp only. 2016-11-01T11:48:57Z edgar-rft: des_consolado: the #scheme folks know that better than we 2016-11-01T11:52:54Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:53:27Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:55:51Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T11:57:05Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-11-01T11:59:19Z xuxuru quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T12:01:43Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:03:29Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:11:31Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:23:05Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:24:46Z klltkr: Is it possible to access a class-allocated slot of a superclass? 2016-11-01T12:26:07Z cromachina: clhs slot-value 2016-11-01T12:26:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 2016-11-01T12:27:50Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:28:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T12:29:20Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:30:36Z beach: klltkr: Class-allocated slots are inherited as usual. 2016-11-01T12:31:43Z klltkr: Sorry, I'm being a bit silly. What I'm actually trying to do is access a class-allocated superclass slot which has the same name as one of the subclasses slots 2016-11-01T12:32:19Z beach: Create an instance of the superclass, or use the class prototype of that superclass. 2016-11-01T12:32:26Z beach: Then access the slot using slot-value. 2016-11-01T12:32:48Z klltkr: Yeah, makes sense. Cheers 2016-11-01T12:33:09Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-01T12:37:26Z algae joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:37:32Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:39:06Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:39:47Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:39:48Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:40:15Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T12:41:14Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-11-01T12:41:17Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:43:28Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:43:33Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:44:12Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T12:48:44Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T12:48:46Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:49:11Z gensym joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:56:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-11-01T12:58:17Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:00:30Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:08:48Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-01T13:09:24Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T13:09:56Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T13:10:23Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:12:05Z jcowan joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:14:44Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T13:15:06Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T13:15:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:17:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T13:20:04Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:24:28Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:29:48Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T13:30:16Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:31:54Z phoe_: beach: klltkr: let me get this one right. 2016-11-01T13:32:34Z phoe_: (defclass foo () ((slot :initform 2 :allocation :class))) (defclass bar (foo) ((slot :initform 4))) 2016-11-01T13:32:37Z phoe_: Something like that? 2016-11-01T13:34:13Z rpg: Can I pass --eval arguments, after --script, to sbcl? 2016-11-01T13:34:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:34:48Z klltkr: What it is, I have "modes" in ulubis (https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis). A mode is basically a combination of mouse motion handler, mouse button handler, keyboard handler and render function. that specifies some interaction model: e.g. a normal desktop mode, an alt tab mode, etc. 2016-11-01T13:35:11Z beach: phoe_: Yes, that's how I understood it. 2016-11-01T13:36:09Z klltkr: Rather than have the keyboard bindings explicitly in the keyboard-handler method, I want to have a list of key bindings for that mode...but they should probably be common across all instances of said mode. I was going to inherit the key-bindings class-allocated slot but that is shared by all of the subclasses. 2016-11-01T13:36:24Z klltkr: I need a distinct class-allocated slot per mode 2016-11-01T13:36:56Z klltkr: Which is fine, that's what I'm going to do, but then I was thinking I could first loop through the current modes keybindings but then also loop through the superclass keybindings 2016-11-01T13:37:56Z klltkr: (say I wanted to be able to quit ulubis regardless of mode...have some keybinding defined in the MODE superclass that would be checked by all subclasses if that key binding was not overridden) 2016-11-01T13:38:22Z phoe_: Is "create an instance of the superclass" always viable though, beach? 2016-11-01T13:38:32Z phoe_: What if the constructor does some side effects? 2016-11-01T13:39:15Z phoe_: PCL tells me "Because you can't get at a class-allocated slot without an instance of the class..." 2016-11-01T13:39:27Z phoe_: Which looks pretty weird. Cannot MOP extract it? 2016-11-01T13:39:48Z klltkr: MOP can 2016-11-01T13:39:48Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for can. 2016-11-01T13:39:58Z klltkr: I wasn't speaking to you specbot :) 2016-11-01T13:40:16Z klltkr: class-prototype 2016-11-01T13:40:27Z klltkr: (e.g. sb-mop:class-prototype) 2016-11-01T13:41:07Z gigetoo_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:41:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:41:50Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:42:16Z phoe_: oh. 2016-11-01T13:42:31Z phoe_: I'd rather use that, since I wouldn't trust arbitrary constructors. 2016-11-01T13:42:53Z phoe_: If there's a class allocation for a slot, then you shouldn't really need to allocate any instance of it to be able to access it. 2016-11-01T13:42:59Z phoe_: I mean - it just makes sense to me this way. 2016-11-01T13:43:08Z klltkr: Yeah 2016-11-01T13:43:22Z phoe_: It's basically a "trait" that all classes of a particular type have in common. 2016-11-01T13:43:33Z phoe_: Like, for example, all horses are white. 2016-11-01T13:43:55Z phoe_: I don't need a horse to check that out if I say that all horses are white. 2016-11-01T13:44:13Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T13:44:20Z gigetoo_ is now known as gigetoo 2016-11-01T13:44:32Z klltkr: PCL also states that it was meant for saving space originally rather than for actually trying to reproduce, say, static members in C++ 2016-11-01T13:44:56Z phoe_: Nowadays space isn't limited though. 2016-11-01T13:45:06Z klltkr: Aye 2016-11-01T13:45:07Z phoe_: I mean - not *as* limited. 2016-11-01T13:45:36Z phoe_: Oh, wait. 2016-11-01T13:45:38Z phoe_: I just realized. 2016-11-01T13:45:45Z phoe_: (defclass foo () ((slot :initform 2 :allocation :class))) (defclass bar (foo) ((slot :initform 4))) 2016-11-01T13:45:56Z phoe_: It means that SLOT for BAR can be instance-allocated, right? 2016-11-01T13:46:02Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:46:16Z phoe_: And if I (defclass baz (bar) ...), then I can define SLOT as class-allocated again? 2016-11-01T13:47:14Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-11-01T13:49:39Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:50:07Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-11-01T13:50:08Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:51:21Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T13:52:05Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:52:30Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:56:36Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-11-01T13:58:07Z loke`: I did a talk, and they taped it. Here's the video 2016-11-01T13:58:07Z loke`: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/5aj6j0/i_did_a_talk_at_the_emacssg_meetup_group_about/ 2016-11-01T14:00:24Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-11-01T14:00:44Z beach: This rather? https://engineers.sg/video/web-development-in-emacs-common-lisp-and-clojurescript-emacs-sg--1245 2016-11-01T14:00:49Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:03:33Z klltkr: Is there something that allows me to find the subclasses of a class...something similar to FIND-CLASS? 2016-11-01T14:03:49Z Xach_: loke`: cool! 2016-11-01T14:04:04Z beach: klltkr: You have to use the mop. 2016-11-01T14:04:11Z beach: mop class-direct-subclasses 2016-11-01T14:04:12Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-subclasses.html 2016-11-01T14:04:15Z klltkr: Cheers 2016-11-01T14:04:49Z beach: klltkr: If you use CLOSER-MOP you get an implementation-independent layer of it. 2016-11-01T14:04:54Z phoe_: ^ 2016-11-01T14:05:26Z klltkr: Yeah, was looking at that last night. Was trying to avoid another dependency but I might just make it so 2016-11-01T14:05:41Z klltkr: :) 2016-11-01T14:06:08Z beach: It is not a severe constraint. 2016-11-01T14:06:36Z phoe_: Yes - and you might actually want it in your project to make your code more "portable" when it comes to MOP. 2016-11-01T14:06:58Z phoe_: Various implementations have inconsistencies when it comes to MOP support and CLOSER-MOP equalizes that al. 2016-11-01T14:07:01Z phoe_: all. 2016-11-01T14:07:11Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:08:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:08:36Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-01T14:09:48Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-11-01T14:10:09Z phoe_: so my bet is to use compatibility libraries like CLOSER-MOP and trust them as de-facto standards until HFR comes and hopefully fixes this. 2016-11-01T14:10:21Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:11:50Z klltkr: beach, yeah 2016-11-01T14:12:03Z klltkr: HFR? 2016-11-01T14:13:21Z phoe_: Hypothetical Future Revision 2016-11-01T14:14:25Z phoe_: that thing everyone discusses once in a while 2016-11-01T14:14:30Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:15:06Z klltkr: I hope it becomes a reality...all glory to the hypnotoad! 2016-11-01T14:15:11Z fluxit quit (Quit: ...) 2016-11-01T14:16:35Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:18:23Z fluxit joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:18:52Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:19:57Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T14:20:05Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:22:48Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:23:06Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:25:20Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:31:32Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:32:52Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:33:25Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:34:03Z rpg: Hypothetical Future Revision will be performed by the Messiah 2016-11-01T14:34:38Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:35:31Z phoe_: rpg: hey, we already have Paul Graham 2016-11-01T14:35:45Z rpg: We are not worthy... 2016-11-01T14:36:00Z phoe_: :< 2016-11-01T14:37:53Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:39:13Z loke`: Xach: thanks :-) 2016-11-01T14:39:38Z loke`: The talk is a bit disjointed because I didn't know they were going to film it, and I had prepared for more of a QA session. 2016-11-01T14:40:17Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:40:33Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:42:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:48:01Z EvW2 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:50:28Z EvW2 is now known as EvW1 2016-11-01T14:50:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T14:50:53Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2016-11-01T14:55:10Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:57:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:59:41Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-11-01T14:59:50Z MetaHertz quit (Quit: Всем пока! // Goodbye everyone!) 2016-11-01T15:00:47Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:04:40Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:06:00Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:07:43Z dcs joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:13:53Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:14:00Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:15:16Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Wicked. 2016-11-01T15:20:41Z _death: loke: you may be interested in my ssh-tunnels thingy.. 2016-11-01T15:20:52Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:21:14Z phoe_: _death: for tunneling slime connections? 2016-11-01T15:21:33Z _death: yes.. and other things 2016-11-01T15:22:29Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:26:33Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:27:56Z john-mcaleely quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2016-11-01T15:28:05Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:29:07Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:29:44Z alienbot_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:31:24Z ec\ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-11-01T15:31:41Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:40:04Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:40:37Z Joreji_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:41:16Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:41:19Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:41:36Z GoZoner joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:41:59Z ec\ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:42:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:43:10Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T15:44:39Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T15:45:24Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:45:27Z Joreji_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:54:21Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:55:03Z alienbot_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:55:38Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T15:55:40Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:55:53Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:56:54Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-11-01T15:57:15Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:57:36Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T15:58:11Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-01T15:59:50Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:00:11Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:00:12Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:01:15Z xuxuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T16:01:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:01:50Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:03:06Z creat joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:03:08Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:07:29Z arpunk1 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:08:41Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-01T16:09:02Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:09:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:09:21Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:09:29Z cpape quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T16:09:45Z cpape joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:09:48Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:10:28Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T16:11:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:12:48Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:12:53Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:14:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:18:59Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:20:36Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-01T16:21:08Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:21:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:22:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:22:39Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:23:41Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:27:43Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:28:17Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:29:08Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:34:21Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:36:43Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:37:01Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:38:32Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:39:13Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T16:46:37Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:52:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:52:59Z shrdlu68: Does adjust-array behave like `realloc`? Does it preserve the pre-existing element if the array grows? 2016-11-01T16:53:25Z shrdlu68: Does adjust-array behave like `realloc`? Does it preserve the pre-existing element if the array grows? 2016-11-01T16:56:29Z dlowe: shikhin: yes. 2016-11-01T16:56:32Z dlowe: it says so in the doc 2016-11-01T16:56:38Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:57:37Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-01T16:59:12Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:04:03Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:05:50Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T17:06:13Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:06:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:08:09Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-11-01T17:12:26Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:15:24Z pichar joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:17:48Z pichar: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-11-01T17:25:51Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T17:27:33Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-01T17:28:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:28:15Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T17:32:04Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T17:35:20Z msmith joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:36:19Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:36:21Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:37:33Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T17:37:34Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2016-11-01T17:38:02Z Weres joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:39:27Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-01T17:39:44Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:40:37Z creat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T17:43:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:46:57Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T17:48:04Z frgo joined #lisp 2016-11-01T17:54:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T17:56:40Z sjl: How bad is it to use with-accessors with something that's not strictly a lisp-generated accessor function? 2016-11-01T17:56:46Z sjl: clhs with-accessors 2016-11-01T17:56:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm 2016-11-01T17:57:08Z sjl: I'm reading the spec and can't decide if it's "fine" or "will probably blow up in certain situations" 2016-11-01T17:57:32Z dlowe: not guaranteed to not launch nuclear missiles 2016-11-01T17:57:43Z sjl: like, suppose I have a struct and then define functions foo and (setf foo) that do some reading/writing to an instance of it 2016-11-01T17:57:56Z sjl: and then do (with-accessors ((f foo)) ...) 2016-11-01T17:58:20Z sjl: on the one hand, the spec says: Creates a lexical environment in which the slots specified by slot-entry are lexically available through their accessors as if they were variables. 2016-11-01T17:58:34Z _death: think Exceptional Situations section makes it pretty clear 2016-11-01T17:58:38Z sjl: implying that it really wants these things to be actual slots 2016-11-01T17:58:55Z sjl: so yeah, exceptional situations says: The consequences are undefined if any accessor-name is not the name of an accessor for the instance. 2016-11-01T17:58:58Z sjl: BUT 2016-11-01T17:59:03Z sjl: if you look in the glossary for accessor 2016-11-01T17:59:18Z sjl: > accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer. 2016-11-01T17:59:38Z sjl: operator is just a function/macro/special form 2016-11-01T18:00:03Z sjl: if foo and (setf foo) are functions that read/write... do they not fit the definition of "accessor"() 2016-11-01T18:00:29Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T18:00:29Z sjl: the other thing is the bit at the end, about "expanding into the equivalent of ..." 2016-11-01T18:00:51Z sjl: if it's equivalent to that, I believe it should Just Work properly 2016-11-01T18:01:27Z _death: but then with-accessors doesn't seem like a well-thought-out macro anyway 2016-11-01T18:01:34Z sjl: (though that doesn't cover cases where there's a declaration or no body) 2016-11-01T18:02:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-01T18:02:13Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:02:23Z sjl: it seems mostly like a convenient way to avoid a bit of typing to me, though I haven't thought about the declaration stuff at all 2016-11-01T18:03:40Z rpg: sjl: I'd say given the exceptional situation warning, I would avoid using with-accessors for things that aren't conventional slot-accessors. 2016-11-01T18:04:11Z rpg: 2 reasons: your implementation may not agree with your interpretation of "accessor", and it confuses the poor person who reads your code later. 2016-11-01T18:04:26Z sjl: rpg: yeah, it seems to behave properly in SBCL but I think it might be safest if I just reimplemented the simple version myself 2016-11-01T18:04:28Z rpg: That person will look for slot accessors and have to figure out that you are doing something non-obvious 2016-11-01T18:04:41Z sjl: yeah 2016-11-01T18:04:47Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:04:59Z rpg: defmacro with-struct-slots .... 2016-11-01T18:05:24Z kp125 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:05:31Z sjl: my usecase is that I'm writing a gameboy emulator, and the gameboy's CPU has registers like B and C, but also has instructions that work with "pseudo-registers" like BC 2016-11-01T18:05:35Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T18:05:47Z rpg: cool.... 2016-11-01T18:05:50Z sjl: so you can write a 16-bit value to the BC register and it gets split apart and shoved into B and C 2016-11-01T18:06:06Z rpg: gotta run, doorbell.... 2016-11-01T18:06:17Z sjl: so I have a struct with slots b and c, but I'd also like to be able to say (setf (gb-bc gameboy) someval) and have it work right 2016-11-01T18:06:36Z sjl: and it would be nice if I could use that with with-accessors 2016-11-01T18:06:51Z sjl: and get (setf bc value) working 2016-11-01T18:07:38Z _death: seems PCL's with-accessors contains a small efficiency hint.. otherwise, no real good reason to use it 2016-11-01T18:08:33Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-01T18:09:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:09:30Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T18:10:37Z sjl: PCL? 2016-11-01T18:10:42Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:12:12Z _death: Portable Common Loops, the basis of SBCL's CLOS implementation 2016-11-01T18:12:18Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T18:13:30Z sjl: ah 2016-11-01T18:14:57Z _death: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/%22with-accessors%22/comp.lang.clos/GE210loK0xg/RUJJtG2P17sJ 2016-11-01T18:15:52Z _death: 1992 Kiczales says it should be OK.. fwiw 2016-11-01T18:16:12Z kp125 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T18:18:39Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:19:04Z _death: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/%22with-accessors%22/comp.lang.clos/0esioqFJwx8/CXT-UpaSjwgJ 2016-11-01T18:19:57Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:21:06Z sjl: also the "equivalent" code in the spec seems broken 2016-11-01T18:21:21Z sjl: > (symbol-macrolet (Q1 ... Qn) form1 ... formk) where Qi (variable-namei () (accessor-namei in)) 2016-11-01T18:21:36Z sjl: symbol macrolet takes (var expansion) pairs... what's that extra () doing in there? 2016-11-01T18:21:47Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T18:22:09Z phoe_: sjl: extra ()? 2016-11-01T18:22:11Z _death: yep 2016-11-01T18:22:56Z sjl: (variable-namei () (accessor-namei in))) 2016-11-01T18:22:58Z sjl: this------------^^ 2016-11-01T18:23:00Z sjl: phoe_: ^ 2016-11-01T18:23:32Z _death: you could add to http://www.cliki.net/Issue 2016-11-01T18:23:36Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:24:05Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T18:24:12Z _death: though http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications already has it 2016-11-01T18:24:16Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:24:27Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T18:24:34Z flak joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:24:41Z sjl: ah 2016-11-01T18:24:45Z sjl: I should bookmark that page 2016-11-01T18:25:19Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:26:35Z phoe_: ooh, the working book for Hypothetical Future Revision 2016-11-01T18:27:05Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-01T18:27:18Z Weres quit (Quit: Weres) 2016-11-01T18:30:46Z msmith quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T18:31:03Z phoe_: I just added FIND NIL in there 2016-11-01T18:31:36Z phoe_: because (FIND NIL '(1 2 3 NIL 5)) just doesn't work 2016-11-01T18:32:12Z dlowe: use MEMBER 2016-11-01T18:33:20Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-01T18:33:54Z phoe_: dlowe: I know how to find a NIL in sequence 2016-11-01T18:34:09Z phoe_: it's just that FIND doesn't work in this single case is not good 2016-11-01T18:35:46Z _death: "doesn't work" is meaningless 2016-11-01T18:36:02Z _death: I can say that it does work.. though the result may not be useful 2016-11-01T18:37:34Z mordocai: jasom: Hey! I tried the cl-whoize it briefly and it wasn't working by default. I haven't had time to look at fixing it yet. I gave the plump parse function a pathname and the code was just returning the pathname as the result from the function. 2016-11-01T18:37:34Z minion: mordocai, memo from jasom: did the cl-whoize end up being at all usable? 2016-11-01T18:37:40Z _death: I agree that the Notes section should mention this 2016-11-01T18:37:59Z mordocai: Only spent like <5 min on it though, possible I was using it wrong 2016-11-01T18:38:04Z phoe_: _death: okay, it works. 2016-11-01T18:38:17Z phoe_: but it doesn't help me know whether's a NIL in the list. 2016-11-01T18:39:40Z _death: phoe: that issue is more general than FIND and other functions also suffer from it 2016-11-01T18:40:06Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:40:23Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T18:41:37Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-11-01T18:41:52Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:43:04Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T18:43:04Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2016-11-01T18:44:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:46:48Z _death: I associate it with the pigeonhole principle.. though I remember it named in a CL book (maybe PAIP, unsure).. pseudoboolean problem or something like that 2016-11-01T18:48:58Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:49:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:50:27Z rpg: phoe_: I think you could use POSITION 2016-11-01T18:50:34Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-01T18:50:46Z msmith joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:51:08Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:52:21Z _death: phoe: also, I wanted to crack a wiseass remark at the HFR line, but I was missing the word I wanted to use.. until now.. it was "Quinquevirate".. points if you figure out why I wanted to use it :) 2016-11-01T18:52:24Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:52:25Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T18:52:37Z _death: rpg: yep, PAIP advises MEMBER/POSITION 2016-11-01T18:52:44Z phoe_: rpg: 2016-11-01T18:52:50Z phoe_: 19:33 < phoe_> dlowe: I know how to find a NIL in sequence 2016-11-01T18:53:23Z rpg: phoe_: Oh, I see. That had scrolled off my screen by the time I got back 2016-11-01T18:53:25Z phoe_: _death: yes, I know. 2016-11-01T18:53:40Z phoe_: _death: five wise men? so it looks like we need a new committee? :P 2016-11-01T18:54:25Z _death: well, it was more about the Second Commoning and Resurrection of the Quinquevirate ;) 2016-11-01T18:55:00Z phoe_: second commoning? 2016-11-01T18:55:04Z phoe_: I don't know what you're talking about 2016-11-01T18:55:10Z phoe_: I might be too young to remember, too 2016-11-01T18:55:14Z _death: phoe: that's good! 2016-11-01T18:56:18Z _death: it's a pun for Second Coming.. if you don't know what "Second Coming" is, good for you :) 2016-11-01T18:56:27Z phoe_: ... 2016-11-01T18:56:31Z phoe_: _death: I'm Polish 2016-11-01T18:56:59Z phoe_: we currently have some people in the government who are waiting just for that Second Coming to happen 2016-11-01T18:57:06Z phoe_: so, sadly, I know what you're talking about 2016-11-01T18:57:26Z phoe_: and I'd rather keep Lisp out of all that. xD 2016-11-01T18:59:03Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-11-01T18:59:15Z _death: yeah, sorry for nontechnical discussion 2016-11-01T19:00:02Z msmith left #lisp 2016-11-01T19:00:20Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:01:07Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:03:16Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T19:06:12Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T19:09:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:12:48Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:15:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T19:16:24Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:16:24Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Changing host) 2016-11-01T19:16:24Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:17:03Z kp125 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:20:36Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T19:27:34Z steelbird left #lisp 2016-11-01T19:38:13Z Weres joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:43:38Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-01T19:44:12Z Weres quit (Quit: Weres) 2016-11-01T19:45:51Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:46:25Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:47:10Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:50:41Z Rumbles quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-01T19:51:18Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-01T19:53:37Z GoZoner quit (Quit: Gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-01T19:57:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T19:58:48Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-01T19:59:52Z kp125 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T20:12:47Z xuxuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T20:13:21Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:17:10Z GoZoner joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:19:09Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:19:46Z razzy89___ left #lisp 2016-11-01T20:21:13Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:24:39Z Xach_: Can a bivalent stream be constructed from a gray stream? 2016-11-01T20:25:38Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:26:31Z Xach_: or rather, from the gray stream system 2016-11-01T20:27:36Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:36:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T20:36:52Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T20:38:10Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:38:47Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-01T20:40:13Z flak quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-11-01T20:41:38Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2016-11-01T20:43:06Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: yes. IOlib has one such immplementation 2016-11-01T20:43:35Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: thanks 2016-11-01T20:46:18Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T20:50:57Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:52:23Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:53:16Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T20:56:05Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:58:02Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-11-01T20:59:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T21:01:14Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-01T21:05:03Z fitzsim left #lisp 2016-11-01T21:06:43Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T21:10:26Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T21:15:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T21:18:26Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T21:21:03Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-11-01T21:25:12Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-01T21:28:22Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-11-01T21:28:30Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-01T21:29:13Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T21:30:42Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-01T21:33:19Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T21:35:41Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-11-01T21:36:41Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2016-11-01T21:36:54Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T21:37:39Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T21:38:34Z jcowan quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-11-01T21:38:39Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2016-11-01T21:49:40Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T21:50:03Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-11-01T21:50:50Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-11-01T21:54:26Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-11-01T21:54:53Z dcs quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-01T21:55:47Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-01T21:57:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T21:59:32Z pankracy_ quit (Changing host) 2016-11-01T21:59:32Z pankracy_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:00:02Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-01T22:00:05Z pankracy_ is now known as pankracy 2016-11-01T22:01:29Z heurist` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T22:02:29Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:04:22Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:06:20Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T22:06:44Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T22:07:52Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T22:08:23Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-01T22:20:31Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-01T22:23:36Z TMA joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:26:12Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-01T22:28:25Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:28:40Z moei joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:34:39Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-01T22:36:24Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T22:37:42Z |3b|: does uiop:run-program portably search PATH? 2016-11-01T22:43:35Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-11-01T22:43:36Z PosterdatiMobile joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:43:37Z _PosterdatiMobil joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:44:52Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-01T22:47:26Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-01T22:47:53Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-01T22:48:21Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:49:54Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:50:08Z rpg: |3b|: not sure I understand the question. 2016-11-01T22:50:24Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T22:50:40Z |3b|: will (uiop:run-program '("foo")) search PATH for foo on all lisp implementations 2016-11-01T22:50:44Z rpg: If you use :require-shell or just use string as command, it should look in PATH 2016-11-01T22:50:54Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:51:08Z |3b| has untrusted arguments to pass to command, so doesn't want to use string 2016-11-01T22:51:10Z rpg: I think (uiop:run-program "foo") will 2016-11-01T22:51:19Z rpg: otherwise you need :force-shell 2016-11-01T22:51:41Z |3b| sees :search t on sbcl, not sure what other platforms do though 2016-11-01T22:51:44Z rpg: run-program without forcing the shell tries to just run the program directly. 2016-11-01T22:52:00Z mood: |3b|: You can use cl-shellwords to escape program arguments 2016-11-01T22:52:11Z rpg: forcing shell means the shell should be searching your path. 2016-11-01T22:53:01Z |3b|: mood: was hoping to avoid manual escaping (i think uiop has shell escaping too though) 2016-11-01T22:53:42Z |3b|: ccl's run-program seems to search 2016-11-01T22:55:19Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-01T22:56:37Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-01T22:57:51Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-01T22:59:00Z _PosterdatiMobil quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-01T22:59:04Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:59:09Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-01T22:59:11Z ahrs joined #lisp 2016-11-01T22:59:40Z rpg: |3b|: I'm pretty sure all you need to do is add :force-shell t to your call. Give it a try. Sorry -- have to go! 2016-11-01T23:00:10Z |3b|: rpg: arguments will be properly escaped with :force-shell? 2016-11-01T23:00:24Z rpg: |3b|: If not, I believe it's a bug. 2016-11-01T23:00:24Z |3b|: on all platforms? 2016-11-01T23:00:27Z |3b|: ok 2016-11-01T23:00:37Z rpg: No promises on Windows! 2016-11-01T23:00:55Z rpg: This is if you are using a list instead of a string argument, right? 2016-11-01T23:00:55Z |3b| meant lisp implementations more than OS :) 2016-11-01T23:01:00Z |3b|: right 2016-11-01T23:01:01Z justinmcp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T23:01:16Z rpg: Anyway, if it doesn't work, drop me a line, or to asdf-devel, and I'll have a look 2016-11-01T23:01:19Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:01:56Z rpg: I'm not sure what is the right answer if you put a $ in, for example, whether we regard that as "should be escaped" or "should be passed through." I suppose likely the latter. 2016-11-01T23:02:01Z rpg: TTYL 2016-11-01T23:02:38Z |3b|: yeah, stuff like that is why i'm trying to avoid manual escaping :) 2016-11-01T23:03:08Z mood: uiop:easy-sh-character-p doesn't pass $ through 2016-11-01T23:03:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-11-01T23:03:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:03:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-11-01T23:03:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:05:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:05:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:06:05Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T23:06:52Z mrottenkolber: I found an alternative to my sillyness from yesterday night: http://paste.lisp.org/display/330011#1 2016-11-01T23:07:37Z kbtr joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:07:44Z |3b|: what's it trying to do? 2016-11-01T23:08:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T23:08:46Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:08:57Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T23:09:01Z mrottenkolber: delete a (unique) item from a list and indicate if it was deleted, elegantly 2016-11-01T23:09:31Z |3b|: destructively? 2016-11-01T23:10:07Z mrottenkolber: doesn’t really matter, but OK with me 2016-11-01T23:10:40Z mrottenkolber: inspiration was this C pseudo code: https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*GHFLYFB3vDQeakMyUGPglw.png 2016-11-01T23:11:47Z mrottenkolber: Warning: this is procrastination, nothing to see here ;-) 2016-11-01T23:12:58Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: oh, the Linus stuff 2016-11-01T23:13:28Z justinmcp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-01T23:13:47Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:14:04Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: yup, it haunted me for no reason 2016-11-01T23:14:17Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:14:30Z OriansJ joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:14:54Z |3b| would probably (loop for i on list when (funcall f i) collect i into b else collect i into a finally (return (values a b))) or something 2016-11-01T23:15:43Z phoe_: yeah, but that conses. 2016-11-01T23:15:44Z |3b|: oops, IN not ON 2016-11-01T23:16:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-01T23:16:36Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-01T23:16:45Z |3b|: phoe_: destructive wasn't a requirement, could share the tail if desired, but that would probably require 2 passes 2016-11-01T23:17:03Z |3b|: (to avoid consing a list if no element matches) 2016-11-01T23:19:44Z phoe_: hey, but you can destructively remove a single element from a list in one pass 2016-11-01T23:19:45Z |3b|: could set a flag instead of keeping removed elements too 2016-11-01T23:20:03Z |3b|: yeah 2016-11-01T23:20:06Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: all you need is a box :) 2016-11-01T23:20:11Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: a box? 2016-11-01T23:20:34Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:20:37Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: in my case a cons storing the head of a list, in case the element to be removed is the first element 2016-11-01T23:20:48Z mrottenkolber: otherwise you need a macro? 2016-11-01T23:21:04Z phoe_: oh, right 2016-11-01T23:21:07Z phoe_: a single cons 2016-11-01T23:21:13Z phoe_: and that's enough 2016-11-01T23:22:00Z pierpa: a special case for the first element would cost less than a cons, I think. 2016-11-01T23:22:53Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T23:23:21Z mrottenkolber: pierpa: but you can’t change a place from a function 2016-11-01T23:24:26Z pierpa: no, you should use the returned value 2016-11-01T23:24:43Z pierpa: just like all the standard destructive function 2016-11-01T23:25:12Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-01T23:25:22Z mrottenkolber: well then you need to cons 2016-11-01T23:25:30Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+72MZ/2 non-consing destructive, single-pass only removes 1 2016-11-01T23:25:34Z pierpa: as an empirical rule of thumb, a cons costs like some thousands of elementary non-consing operations 2016-11-01T23:26:06Z |3b|: as an empirical rule of thumb, millions of extra operations takes a ms and doesn't matter 2016-11-01T23:26:49Z pierpa: a ms doesn't matter? 2016-11-01T23:27:03Z yaewa joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:27:04Z |3b|: as a rule of thumb, no 2016-11-01T23:27:20Z yaewa quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-01T23:27:33Z pierpa: compared to, say, 1 ns? a millionfold difference doesn't matter? 2016-11-01T23:27:38Z |3b|: right 2016-11-01T23:27:48Z |3b|: compared to the amount a user will percieve 2016-11-01T23:27:48Z pierpa: good. let me take note. 2016-11-01T23:28:12Z pierpa: so, a user won't perceive the difference between 1 second and 1000000 seconds 2016-11-01T23:28:14Z Arathnim: It's probably less time than was lost by using loop instead of tagbody. 2016-11-01T23:28:42Z |3b| said 1ms, not 1sec :) 2016-11-01T23:28:52Z |3b|: as a rule of thumb, 1sec does matter 2016-11-01T23:28:59Z pierpa: yes, and then repeat this computation 1000 times :) 2016-11-01T23:29:05Z |3b|: scale matters, not ratios 2016-11-01T23:29:06Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:29:46Z klltkr: Holla 2016-11-01T23:30:27Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:32:51Z |3b|: sure, and if you have a million users, doing that every day, it might be worth the extra development time to use destructive operations 2016-11-01T23:32:53Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:33:24Z |3b|: but at that point, you probably want higher-level optimizations anyway :) 2016-11-01T23:34:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:34:40Z pierpa: the special case is also clearer. Allocating a cons and then discarding it in addition to being a big waste is also clever, and clever things are best avoided 2016-11-01T23:40:32Z phoe_: as an empirical rule of thumb, every time you make a wasteful cons, Paul Graham executes ten thousand Java programmers 2016-11-01T23:40:38Z phoe_: please think of the innocent Java Programmmers 2016-11-01T23:41:05Z pierpa: that could be read as an incentive to waste conses! 2016-11-01T23:41:20Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:42:12Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:42:42Z phoe_: pierpa: no, please 2016-11-01T23:42:45Z phoe_: I do Java for a living ;_; 2016-11-01T23:42:51Z phoe_: I might be one of them someday 2016-11-01T23:43:11Z Rumbles: oh nooooooo 2016-11-01T23:43:16Z Rumbles: save phoe_ 2016-11-01T23:43:54Z phoe_: Rumbles: I mean, uh, I'd be more than glad 2016-11-01T23:44:01Z phoe_: but then again, I don't think I'll find a Lisp job soon 2016-11-01T23:44:16Z pierpa: Save Phoe! use a special case! 2016-11-01T23:45:03Z Rumbles: the most valuable java programmer in existence: one who doesn't randomly drop dead 2016-11-01T23:46:49Z phoe_: Rumbles: not true 2016-11-01T23:46:54Z phoe_: there's always 15 others to replace you 2016-11-01T23:46:58Z raydeejay: isn't it the other way around? 2016-11-01T23:47:06Z phoe_: raydeejay: COBOL? 2016-11-01T23:47:17Z raydeejay: yes, you already said Java 2016-11-01T23:47:22Z raydeejay: what's your point 2016-11-01T23:47:23Z raydeejay: xD 2016-11-01T23:48:00Z Rumbles: they've gotta maintain their java programs somehow 2016-11-01T23:50:19Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-01T23:51:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-01T23:53:20Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-01T23:58:01Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T00:06:36Z klltkr: I need a job :( 2016-11-02T00:07:37Z klltkr: Anyone fancy giving me a job? 2016-11-02T00:08:35Z Rumbles: same lmao 2016-11-02T00:08:36Z phoe_: #lispjobs -> 2016-11-02T00:09:44Z klltkr: Doesn't have to be lisp 2016-11-02T00:10:01Z klltkr: I will write Java for rent money 2016-11-02T00:10:53Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T00:11:50Z klltkr: Preferably somewhere in the US or Canada because my American girlfriend can't get a job in the UK because we don't like foreign people anymore 2016-11-02T00:12:17Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-02T00:12:40Z ahrs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T00:14:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-02T00:16:48Z xuxuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T00:17:26Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-02T00:18:27Z edgar-rft: klltkr: as I wrote several times ago, I have *lots* of jobs, but I won't pay money. To me it sounds more like you need *money*, not a job. 2016-11-02T00:20:09Z klltkr: I need both...money for food and shelter and luxuries and somewhere to go for a few hours every day so as to not go insane 2016-11-02T00:21:58Z pichar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-11-02T00:22:22Z klltkr: (I currently have the gym for the latter but see the first requirement) 2016-11-02T00:24:13Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-02T00:25:21Z dmiles: i am dumb right now.. what is the way to eval a function before completing a special form? 2016-11-02T00:25:52Z Rumbles: set it to a variable and use that in the form? 2016-11-02T00:26:03Z Rumbles: is that based on a misunderstanding? 2016-11-02T00:26:08Z phoe_: dmiles: example please? 2016-11-02T00:26:25Z phoe_: because "completing a special form" is not something I recognize 2016-11-02T00:27:35Z dmiles: (let ((usedpackages (append '(:use :cl-user :sl ) (package-use-list :cl-user)) (cl:defpackage :cyc usedpackages ) 2016-11-02T00:27:56Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T00:27:57Z dmiles: so the special-form is defpackage 2016-11-02T00:28:19Z dmiles: sorry my parans are all out fo ballance there 2016-11-02T00:28:48Z phoe_: ooh 2016-11-02T00:29:06Z |3b|: if you want to build a package at runtime, maybe you should do it manually (make-package, use-package, etc) 2016-11-02T00:29:30Z |3b|: though #. might be an option if you really need to 2016-11-02T00:29:41Z |3b|: (and are willing to rearrange the code so it works) 2016-11-02T00:29:58Z |3b|: that happens before the evaluation of the special form though, not during 2016-11-02T00:30:38Z |3b|: you might also be able to use a macro to generate the defpackage form with desired contents, though again may require rearranging code, and happens before evaluation of the special form 2016-11-02T00:30:47Z dmiles: my actual goal is to import all accessable you'd come to expect in :cl-user into :cyc 2016-11-02T00:30:56Z TruePika: meh, threading issues <_< 2016-11-02T00:31:13Z TruePika: deadlocked (it appears) code running in `sbcl --script` 2016-11-02T00:31:17Z |3b|: yeah, probably easier to do that with code 2016-11-02T00:31:44Z pierpa: something like this: (loop for s being each extrnal-symbol in package1 do (import s package2) (export s package2) ? 2016-11-02T00:31:54Z |3b| would suggest a cyc-user package instead though, possibly also a fixed import list rather than just duplicating cl-user 2016-11-02T00:31:55Z TruePika: all my threads are alive (as evidenced by their being in the /proc/*/task tree), but nothing is happening 2016-11-02T00:32:32Z |3b|: keep in mind cl-user varies by implementation, so in either case you might fail on some platforms due to a conflict you didn't expect 2016-11-02T00:34:02Z dmiles: most people coding in CYC expext they will be in :cyc isntead of :cl-user .. :cyc inherets a poor lisp impl in :sublisp.. one thing i'll am going to do is even though :cyc only import :sublisp .. i will have it se :common-lisp fist 2016-11-02T00:34:24Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T00:34:35Z |3b|: would they object to :cyc-user? 2016-11-02T00:34:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-11-02T00:35:03Z dmiles: yeah .. .. though they wont object inheriting from something 2016-11-02T00:35:14Z TruePika: meh, my only guess is that the main thread is waiting for a child to finish, but the children are all blocked on a filled-up result queue 2016-11-02T00:35:55Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2016-11-02T00:36:19Z TruePika: hm, yeah, that could actually be a possibility; four workers yield about 120 entries for the result queue, but said queue is only 100 large IIRC 2016-11-02T00:36:20Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T00:37:32Z dmiles: |3b|, pierpa thanks.. looks like i better just play i smart and add some code that will impl the inheritance they might want without breakeaking compatiblity of the expected :sublisp 2016-11-02T00:38:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T00:39:02Z dmiles: most system nance scripts are coded to run from :cyc .. I will want them to switch to cyc-user when they common lisp repl 2016-11-02T00:39:29Z dmiles: most system nance scripts are coded to run from :cyc .. I will want them to switch to :cyc-user when they want common lisp instead of sublisp 2016-11-02T00:40:14Z dmiles: :cyc is supposed to see sublisp:defmacro vs :cyc-user can see cl:defmacro 2016-11-02T00:42:08Z dmiles: so thanks for suggesting :cyc-user 2016-11-02T00:42:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T00:43:27Z dmiles: now i sort of want :cl-user to see all of what :cyc nornmall has but without the :sublisp incompatibilites to commonlisp 2016-11-02T00:44:20Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T00:47:42Z dmiles: (oh btw the only reason i used defpackage is it has shadowing options whears use-package didnt) 2016-11-02T00:49:32Z Xach_: you call shadow before you call use-package in that case. 2016-11-02T00:51:20Z dmiles: i loop thru accessable symbols of the package and shadow them first ? 2016-11-02T00:51:47Z dmiles: erm extern symbols that is 2016-11-02T00:54:04Z dmiles: oh interesting .. all of :cyc and :sublisp symbols are publically external .. i can make all the conflixing symbols non external 2016-11-02T00:55:46Z dmiles: cyc's lisp wasnt designed with common lisp in mind 2016-11-02T00:56:34Z |3b| would suggest not modifying CL-USER automatically, people can use-package manually if they want it 2016-11-02T00:56:51Z dcs joined #lisp 2016-11-02T00:58:00Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-11-02T00:58:09Z |3b|: maybe have a 2nd set of packages with the cyc + cl version in addition to the packages with cyc + sublisp 2016-11-02T01:00:46Z dmiles: yeah io have three differnt types of programmer users.. system bootstrappers who are told thehy need to be in cyc package whom dont relay on haivng common lisp 2016-11-02T01:01:18Z dmiles: user whom thought they needed to be in cyc in order to write programs to extend the system 2016-11-02T01:02:11Z dmiles: 3rd type is the person whom wants to use cyc and not have it jank their CL 2016-11-02T01:03:07Z dmiles: cyc only recently even had a package system :) 2016-11-02T01:03:20Z dcs quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-11-02T01:03:55Z kamog` joined #lisp 2016-11-02T01:04:07Z wch is now known as heddwch 2016-11-02T01:04:13Z dmiles: i do vote to have it as you said |3b| .. make the 3rd user type the default .. even though i am prtobly the second type 2016-11-02T01:04:50Z |3b|: you can always have extra .asd files that load different configurations 2016-11-02T01:07:00Z kamog quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T01:07:16Z pkkm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T01:07:56Z minion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T01:08:45Z minion joined #lisp 2016-11-02T01:12:39Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-02T01:13:14Z jokleinn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-11-02T01:14:15Z pichar joined #lisp 2016-11-02T01:16:03Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T01:16:56Z pkkm joined #lisp 2016-11-02T01:21:15Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-11-02T01:22:43Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-11-02T01:34:27Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T01:37:56Z Rumbles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T01:41:18Z nrp3c quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T01:41:52Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-11-02T01:46:35Z _death: the joy of breaking into the debugger with an error, redefining the method to have a nice restart, and continuing to the next error with that restart available! 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-02T03:26:00Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-02T03:26:56Z reinisch quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T03:30:41Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-02T03:32:16Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-02T03:34:36Z sake quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T03:34:46Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T03:41:43Z sake joined #lisp 2016-11-02T03:50:04Z Reinisch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-02T04:00:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-11-02T04:02:23Z beach: OriansJ: As Bike said, very painful. What would be the point? 2016-11-02T04:08:01Z loke: OriansJ: LISP 1.5 was in assembly. 2016-11-02T04:10:37Z loke: Here's the soruce code: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp1.5/CTSS_LISP-Feb_1966.pdf 2016-11-02T04:12:28Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T04:15:00Z Arathnim: Did they just make a small interpreter in assembly and then write the full compiler in lisp? I need to read more about lisp history. 2016-11-02T04:15:37Z beach: For LISP 1.5? I seriously doubt there was a compiler at all. 2016-11-02T04:22:15Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T04:23:09Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T04:23:38Z loke: LISP 1.5 was an interpreter written in assembly. 2016-11-02T04:23:54Z loke: I'm not sure which was the first compiler. Zetalisp maybe? 2016-11-02T04:25:10Z eSVG joined #lisp 2016-11-02T04:25:51Z loke: Oh wait a minute... 2016-11-02T04:25:53Z beach: Or Maclisp. 2016-11-02T04:25:56Z Arathnim: Interlisp? 2016-11-02T04:26:07Z loke: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4mp4oy/lisp_i_and_lisp_15_manuals_source_code/ 2016-11-02T04:26:21Z loke: The guy states: "The compiler and assembler were written by Timothy P. Hart and Michael I. Levin. An earlier compiler was written by Robert Brayton." 2016-11-02T04:26:28Z loke: That suggests LISP 1.5 actually had a compiler? 2016-11-02T04:26:44Z beach: It does. 2016-11-02T04:27:29Z eschatologist: Sure, why wouldn't it? 2016-11-02T04:27:38Z eschatologist: Writing a compiler isn't all that much harder than writing eval. 2016-11-02T04:28:10Z loke: But LISP 1 didn't, right? I'm sure I saw the old Lisp being a pure interpreter. 2016-11-02T04:28:12Z eschatologist: Remember, thinking to write eval in the first place was a breakthrough. 2016-11-02T04:28:57Z eschatologist: The very very first initial implementation may well not have had one. 2016-11-02T04:29:07Z eschatologist: But it wouldn't surprise me if one didn't come along quickly. 2016-11-02T04:29:24Z eschatologist: Like I said, once you have Lisp running, compiling isn't that much harder than writing eval. 2016-11-02T04:29:58Z eschatologist: People seem to think there's some mystical magic that makes compilers hard. And good optimization is certainly hard. But the most basic codegen isn't. 2016-11-02T04:35:16Z bounb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T04:35:25Z bounb joined #lisp 2016-11-02T04:35:25Z bounb quit (Changing host) 2016-11-02T04:35:25Z bounb joined #lisp 2016-11-02T04:41:08Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T04:41:26Z vecchiricordi joined #lisp 2016-11-02T04:41:59Z vecchiricordi left #lisp 2016-11-02T04:45:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-11-02T04:45:47Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-02T04:47:50Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-02T04:55:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-11-02T04:57:59Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:02:03Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:03:16Z bounb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T05:03:54Z bounb joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:03:54Z bounb quit (Changing host) 2016-11-02T05:03:54Z bounb joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:10:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:13:00Z jostein quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T05:13:05Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T05:13:32Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:14:44Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T05:23:20Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:30:37Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T05:34:59Z jostein joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:37:44Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:48:58Z Jameser quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-11-02T05:51:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:54:04Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:57:39Z shka joined #lisp 2016-11-02T05:58:23Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T05:58:27Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:01:44Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T06:03:22Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:07:25Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T06:09:00Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T06:14:59Z macdavid313: Hello everyone 2016-11-02T06:15:21Z macdavid313: Can anybody start CMUCL on a Linux successfully? 2016-11-02T06:15:51Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:16:04Z beach: macdavid313: Do you have any particular reason for using CMUCL? 2016-11-02T06:16:15Z jackdaniel: macdavid313: works here without a problem 2016-11-02T06:16:55Z macdavid313: When I tried to do it, it tells me "No such file or directory", which is odd 2016-11-02T06:17:29Z macdavid313: beach: Not a particular reason, just wanna try its Motif toolkit 2016-11-02T06:17:37Z beach: OK. 2016-11-02T06:18:00Z beach: macdavid313: Do you have any particular reason for using Motif? :) 2016-11-02T06:18:03Z jackdaniel: macdavid313: I've build it like described here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-Quarterly-Volume-IV.html#orgheadline31 2016-11-02T06:19:15Z macdavid313: jackdaniel: Thanks :) 2016-11-02T06:20:11Z macdavid313: I think I can maybe try to cross-compile it ... 2016-11-02T06:21:24Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:22:12Z beach: macdavid313: Despite the smiley, that was a serious question. You don't have to answer it, of course. 2016-11-02T06:22:39Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:23:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:25:27Z macdavid313: beach: No, I just knew CMUCL had a new release weeks ago, wanna play with it while waiting for some other stuff 2016-11-02T06:26:44Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-02T06:26:58Z beach: I am asking specifically about Motif because, if you want a GUI toolkit, McCLIM is now actively maintained and improving on a weekly basis. 2016-11-02T06:27:17Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:27:44Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T06:28:40Z macdavid313: beach: Yes, that's really awesome 2016-11-02T06:29:41Z macdavid313: beach: I remember I even had an argument with another Lisper about this, who thinks work on the open-sourced CLIM released by Franz might be a wiser choice 2016-11-02T06:30:55Z beach: For those who use Allegro, yes, maybe so. 2016-11-02T06:31:36Z macdavid313: beach: exactly 2016-11-02T06:33:07Z macdavid313: beach: May I ask how's going on with the SICL project? 2016-11-02T06:34:16Z beach: macdavid313: Sure. Steady but slow progress. Bike has been working on type inference in the compiler, and I am working on a portable, fast, and maintainable implementation of the sequence functions. 2016-11-02T06:34:22Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:35:06Z macdavid313: beach: cool ~ :) 2016-11-02T06:36:13Z beach: The module containing the sequence functions was the first one I started working on in SICL, and now is the third or so attempt. I think I got it right this time. 2016-11-02T06:36:50Z beach: I am hoping to submit a paper about it to ELS2017, so if you show up there, with a bit of luck, I'll have a presentation. But that will depend on the referees of course. 2016-11-02T06:38:38Z beach takes a break. 2016-11-02T06:38:46Z macdavid313: beach: That's great. 2016-11-02T06:41:35Z JuanDaugherty used to run it on linux b4 sbcl 2016-11-02T06:41:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:42:46Z loke: Hello beachman 2016-11-02T06:48:48Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T06:49:54Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:50:36Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T06:50:50Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:52:32Z macdavid313: It's a bit of surprising CMUCL has a new release anyway 2016-11-02T06:53:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-02T06:55:59Z ASau quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-11-02T06:57:17Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-02T06:59:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:03:02Z aeth: beach: Does SICL run any major libraries or applications yet? 2016-11-02T07:03:29Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:05:03Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:05:59Z opengs7 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:07:34Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T07:09:23Z opengs7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T07:12:06Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:12:45Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-11-02T07:14:31Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:21:50Z beach left #lisp 2016-11-02T07:23:50Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:27:21Z damke joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:27:40Z Bike: cleavir is a core component in clasp, which can run... stuff. 2016-11-02T07:29:42Z damke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T07:30:52Z damke joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:32:17Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T07:33:57Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:37:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:41:26Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T07:41:43Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:42:50Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:44:22Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:44:51Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:46:39Z aeth: Ah, clasp. I've been waiting for CFFI support there. https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/162 2016-11-02T07:47:17Z aeth: Then I can finally see if my code runs on it. 2016-11-02T07:47:44Z Bike: he put callbacks in today (or so) 2016-11-02T07:47:48Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-11-02T07:50:17Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-11-02T07:50:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T07:54:00Z Bike quit (Quit: nelt) 2016-11-02T07:54:30Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-11-02T07:58:57Z flip214: If I've got a (multithreaded?) SBCL process, is there some safe way of forking a new process, running a specific function? 2016-11-02T07:59:26Z flip214: I don't think that simply calling posix functions will work out (locks in glibc, perhaps SBCL, ...), 2016-11-02T07:59:31Z flip214: so is there some assisted way? 2016-11-02T07:59:39Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:00:42Z flip214: I plan to call socketpair() and have the child communicate with the "main" process via that. 2016-11-02T08:02:49Z flip214: hmmm, there's https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/451111 2016-11-02T08:04:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:05:34Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:08:28Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T08:12:41Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:14:55Z Arathnim quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-02T08:16:28Z Rambles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T08:17:52Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T08:18:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:24:47Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:31:05Z shka joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:32:10Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:43:23Z Cymew: macdavid313: Why is that? CMUCL is actively maintained, so naturally there will be new releases. 2016-11-02T08:47:11Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:47:34Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:48:29Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T08:53:26Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:54:04Z f32ff_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-02T08:55:35Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T08:55:54Z shrdlu68: The ironclad manual states "Support for RSA encryption and decryption is provided as well, but it is "raw"--the various formatting schemes (e.g. PKCS-1) must be implemented by the user at this time.". Has this changed? I see a source file name "pkcs1.lisp" in the ironclad source. 2016-11-02T08:56:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:56:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T08:57:04Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T08:58:45Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-11-02T08:59:00Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T09:01:23Z lnostdal quit (Quit: lnostdal) 2016-11-02T09:02:07Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T09:03:38Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:08:03Z eSVG quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T09:11:58Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:13:08Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-11-02T09:15:57Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:16:30Z shrdlu68: It seems to be no, to answer my own question. 2016-11-02T09:22:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:23:58Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:26:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:27:39Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T09:31:39Z HDurer joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:34:06Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-11-02T09:41:58Z pichar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-11-02T09:53:21Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-11-02T10:00:54Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:05:38Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T10:10:58Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T10:11:16Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:11:31Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:12:23Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-11-02T10:12:45Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:14:31Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-11-02T10:21:55Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:22:07Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:22:45Z shka joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:23:52Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T10:26:01Z shrdlu68: I'm getting a warning about the read-non-zero being undefined, how do I declare it ignorable? (or otherwise get rid of the warning?) http://paste.lisp.org/+72PL 2016-11-02T10:27:16Z justinabrahms quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-11-02T10:29:37Z loke: shrdlu68: You're trying to recoruse inside a FLET. 2016-11-02T10:29:53Z loke: recurse 2016-11-02T10:29:59Z flip214: shrdlu68: use LABELS? 2016-11-02T10:30:19Z loke: shrdlu68: Also, don't try to loop using recursion. There is the LOOP macro that you should use. 2016-11-02T10:30:30Z loke: Recursion is not an alternative to iteration. 2016-11-02T10:30:31Z justinabrahms joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:31:23Z loke: You probably want something like (loop for r = (read-byte ...) while (zerop r) finally (return r)) 2016-11-02T10:31:36Z shrdlu68: So recursing inside flet is verboten? 2016-11-02T10:31:36Z shrdlu68: Ah, in that case I won't need flet at all. 2016-11-02T10:32:01Z loke: shrdlu68: Right. FLET does not expose itself inside the body of the function. LABELS, however, does. 2016-11-02T10:32:41Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: http://paste.lisp.org/+72PL/1 2016-11-02T10:34:19Z fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/+72PL/2 2016-11-02T10:35:00Z fe[nl]ix: oops, that will fill the whole array 2016-11-02T10:35:37Z shrdlu68: I get the point :) 2016-11-02T10:37:00Z shrdlu68: The := looks so backus-naur-formish :P 2016-11-02T10:38:08Z fe[nl]ix: that's the whole point 2016-11-02T10:38:34Z _death: can use displaced array with map-into.. though that conses 2016-11-02T10:38:50Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:40:44Z loke: _death: What is the current status of dbus provider support? 2016-11-02T10:40:54Z _death: loke: awaiting feedback 2016-11-02T10:40:59Z loke: _death: Once it lands in QL, I will release by dbus-stumpwm module 2016-11-02T10:41:08Z loke: s/by/my/ 2016-11-02T10:41:19Z _death: loke: it's already there I believe (my publish-objects) 2016-11-02T10:41:53Z loke: _death: and it uses a different API than the one that I use? 2016-11-02T10:42:04Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T10:42:26Z loke: I'm using the API from Marek. 2016-11-02T10:42:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T10:43:18Z _death: loke: yes. and introspection support is not there (though it's not hard to add.. it's real easy to build an xmls description) 2016-11-02T10:43:54Z loke: What is introspection support? Since I don't know what it is, I doubt it's something I use. 2016-11-02T10:44:48Z _death: loke: dbus objects can implement a standard dbus interface for introspection, that returns a description of them in xml format 2016-11-02T10:45:11Z loke: Oh, I see. 2016-11-02T10:45:17Z loke: I only implement the well-published interface. 2016-11-02T10:47:18Z _death: loke: ok.. it shouldn't be a big deal to modify your code to work with my impl.. but since I don't use dbus nowadays I'm just waiting for feedback from those who actually use it 2016-11-02T10:47:42Z loke: _death: I'll switch my code to use yours 2016-11-02T10:48:35Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:51:34Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T10:51:39Z Einwq joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:53:07Z flip214: _death: introspection would be nice; would make using interactively (shell!) much easier. 2016-11-02T10:53:38Z flip214: binding a name does make sense, too 2016-11-02T10:53:44Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T10:54:00Z flip214: and I'm trying to figure out how to pass complex arguments (maps, arrays) in/out 2016-11-02T10:55:38Z _death: flip214: yes.. I wrote some poc to do that (no need for xml-emitter, just cxml to convert xmls).. also the introspection xml string should be computed whenever a dbus object changes (methods/signal-handlers (re)defined) and not on Introspect 2016-11-02T10:57:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T10:58:51Z _death: if you want to tackle it be my guest :).. it's better if someone who actually uses it implements this stuff 2016-11-02T11:00:09Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T11:00:12Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T11:00:15Z flip214: well, not if the result gets thrown out anyway. won't my (old) branch be a good enough approximation for eg. introspection? 2016-11-02T11:00:42Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-11-02T11:02:09Z _death: it's a starting point, but adds xml-emitter as dependency 2016-11-02T11:02:42Z _death: also, "thrown away" is a simplistic view of things.. after all, your implementation inspired mine 2016-11-02T11:03:49Z flip214: "inspiration" is no base for copyright ;) 2016-11-02T11:04:00Z edgar-rft feels expired 2016-11-02T11:04:17Z _death: in any case, I am indifferent on the issue, since I don't use dbus 2016-11-02T11:08:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-11-02T11:10:23Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T11:10:28Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T11:11:16Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-11-02T11:11:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T11:13:01Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-11-02T11:16:16Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T11:17:18Z Posterdati: hi 2016-11-02T11:17:24Z Posterdati: flip214: hi, how are you? 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Would using lisp be a good idea for such an attempt? I know there a lot of libs for both dialects but I'm not sure it's a good idea. Or to put it in a better way what are the cons of such an 2016-11-02T14:06:36Z dwts: idea if any? 2016-11-02T14:07:22Z dlowe: if you come to a common lisp channel, you will get the advice that common lisp is the greatest :) 2016-11-02T14:07:43Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:07:43Z dwts: but is it still a good choice? 2016-11-02T14:07:44Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:07:46Z dwts: :) 2016-11-02T14:07:51Z jackdaniel: dwts: I don't know how active is it, but there is #lispweb channel 2016-11-02T14:07:55Z dlowe: Sure. Most of your code is going to be in js anyway 2016-11-02T14:08:08Z dlowe: CL will handle the backend very well. 2016-11-02T14:08:28Z dwts: dlowe: I thought that there are libs that let you write cl that then transpile to js 2016-11-02T14:08:40Z dwts: jackdaniel: didn't know about that channel, I'll have to join there too 2016-11-02T14:08:43Z jackdaniel: dwts: there is, it's called parenscript 2016-11-02T14:08:47Z dlowe: no, not CL. There's parenscript. 2016-11-02T14:08:57Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/ 2016-11-02T14:09:20Z jackdaniel: it covers reasonable subset of CL 2016-11-02T14:09:30Z dwts: interesting 2016-11-02T14:10:00Z dwts: so, it seems like none is advising against trying something like this in lisp :) 2016-11-02T14:10:00Z jackdaniel: you may be interested in weblocks (again, not sure how well maintained is it), since it has continuation-based web application model 2016-11-02T14:10:02Z dwts: that's nice 2016-11-02T14:10:13Z Grue`: with any luck you'll be able to compile CL to WebAssembly at some point in the future 2016-11-02T14:10:22Z seg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:10:59Z jackdaniel: there are other web frameworks (caveman, ningle and lucrene) 2016-11-02T14:11:22Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:11:23Z seg_ is now known as seg 2016-11-02T14:11:40Z dwts: I was thinking lisp is a nice choice since even the math can be done with ease when using lists 2016-11-02T14:11:59Z dwts: like mapping the + to the set of wanted cells for example 2016-11-02T14:12:22Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:14:43Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:16:55Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:17:02Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:17:26Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:17:31Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:18:25Z dwts: dlowe: so CL for the backend, parenscript for the frontend is your suggestion? 2016-11-02T14:19:39Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:19:48Z dlowe: yep. 2016-11-02T14:21:02Z dwts: thank you guys, I'll share the project here if I come to a non-embarassing prototype :P 2016-11-02T14:21:37Z dlowe: have fun :) 2016-11-02T14:21:42Z jackdaniel: and good luck 2016-11-02T14:23:11Z dwts: hehe, thank you :> 2016-11-02T14:23:39Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T14:23:46Z Xach_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:23:58Z whiteline_ is now known as whiteline 2016-11-02T14:24:03Z whartung joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:24:06Z Dan1973: Hey guys. A question about standalone lisp excutables(sbcl for example). As far as I understand, the generatedimage contains the compiler, repl and all things. Now, what about the amcros defined in the program ? Lets say I want to describe behaviour trees for some entites in lisp and I use some macros for this description. And I want to keep the behaviours in text for easy modification, load them (they use macros) compile at run time 2016-11-02T14:24:06Z Dan1973: and enjoy the result. Is it doable ? 2016-11-02T14:25:05Z jackdaniel: Dan1973: macros are contained in the generated image 2016-11-02T14:25:29Z Dan1973: thanks 2016-11-02T14:25:43Z jackdaniel: (they are actually functions, but they run at the compilation time) 2016-11-02T14:27:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:27:45Z Dan1973: and lets say I have a mechansim to re-compile the source if it is modified by an external editor on the fly. Will it update in memory the functions while my program is running ? 2016-11-02T14:27:50Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:28:41Z jackdaniel: yes 2016-11-02T14:28:48Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:29:04Z kamog` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-11-02T14:29:16Z jackdaniel: keep in mind though, that it is possible, that your function call was inlined somewhere, then changing the function in the memory won't affect the other one 2016-11-02T14:29:36Z jackdaniel: but if you recompile also the function which calls your updated function, then there shouldn't be a problem 2016-11-02T14:30:53Z jackdaniel: essentially it is something what many CL programmers use – they use slime (emacs mode) and recompile functions during the development, so they don't have to recompile whole project whatsoever 2016-11-02T14:31:38Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:34:24Z Dan1973: jackdaniel: yeh, i used it as well in emacs with slime , but I just learn lisp and I wasnt sure if it will still work in a standalone executable which laods code on demand and compiles it 2016-11-02T14:35:27Z Dan1973: I guess this means that Ill also have a repl in my excutable, which I can expose trhough sockets if I really want to any tools, like sbcl exposes it though slime to Emacs,yea ? 2016-11-02T14:36:03Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:36:14Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:36:25Z jackdaniel: it is possible – you have to setup swank server in that case (it allows even remote connections) - keep in mind security issues which may arise from such approach though 2016-11-02T14:36:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:36:51Z MetaHertz quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T14:37:10Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:37:30Z jackdaniel: I'm developming on android via remote swank from my localhost 2016-11-02T14:37:55Z jackdaniel: developming° 2016-11-02T14:37:59Z jackdaniel: developing° 2016-11-02T14:38:14Z dwts: jackdaniel: are you developing adnroid apps with common lisp? 2016-11-02T14:38:28Z jackdaniel: prototyping, nothing fancy so far 2016-11-02T14:38:29Z Dan1973: jackdaniel: yes of course, thank you for reminding abt security. But as far things I build are just toys to learn lisp, I find I learn faster if i create things i like in the language, instead of fooling arround with simple functions in repl 2016-11-02T14:38:46Z jackdaniel: Dan1973: yes, it's very useful feature – just saying 2016-11-02T14:39:08Z dwts: didn't know that cl is good for that too? 2016-11-02T14:39:43Z jackdaniel: dwts: ECL runs as Android app (but it is in alpha phase atm) – I'm maintaining EclAndroid 2016-11-02T14:39:59Z Dan1973: thats really nice 2016-11-02T14:40:04Z rtmpdavid joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:40:21Z mordocai: jasom: Playing tag here, but per the docs "Using the PARSE function, plump will transform a string, pathname or stream into a document" 2016-11-02T14:40:29Z jackdaniel: there is not legit cl<->java bridge so far, but I have some ideas how to implement it in a clean way. For now it's java calling lisp 2016-11-02T14:40:45Z dwts: ah okay 2016-11-02T14:41:19Z dwts: well I always wanted to write an android app but without the paren fun I wouldn't enjoy it 2016-11-02T14:41:39Z jackdaniel: dwts: if you are curious – https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android 2016-11-02T14:41:54Z dwts: yep found the repo already but thanks :) 2016-11-02T14:42:21Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-11-02T14:42:53Z Dan1973: are there tools to create basic ffi wrappers to C automatically from headers ? 2016-11-02T14:43:16Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:43:45Z jackdaniel: Dan1973: groveller (part of cffi) does that I think 2016-11-02T14:43:58Z Dan1973: jackdaniel: many thanks 2016-11-02T14:47:33Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:48:30Z saturniid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T14:51:11Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:52:06Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:57:02Z heurist__ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:57:06Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:57:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:57:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:57:21Z pipping: |3b|: funny enough, I tested this just the other day 2016-11-02T14:57:22Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T14:57:29Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:58:06Z pipping: |3b|: (uiop:run-program "ls") worked for me on all the platforms I tested ( that would be same list as used here: http://139.162.161.212/asdf/summary.html ) 2016-11-02T14:58:40Z pipping: |3b|: that said, I didn't test with '("ls") 2016-11-02T14:58:43Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T14:58:56Z MetaHert` joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:59:08Z przl_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T14:59:19Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:00:04Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:00:25Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:01:01Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:01:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:01:50Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:01:54Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:02:44Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:03:01Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-11-02T15:04:18Z pipping: |3b|: would you mind explaining again which problem you're trying to solve? 2016-11-02T15:04:57Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:05:07Z pipping: (might also be worth mentioning: don't use :force-shell t unless you have to) 2016-11-02T15:05:20Z igam joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:06:18Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:09:40Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-02T15:09:46Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:11:38Z stardiviner quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-11-02T15:12:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:16:06Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:16:28Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:18:23Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:21:06Z pipping: |3b|: update: '("ls") resolves properly everywhere, too 2016-11-02T15:21:21Z |3b|: pipping: i want to pass untrusted data as specific arguments to a child process, so i need to make sure there isn't a shell interpreting ; or $ or > or whatever in a dangerous way 2016-11-02T15:21:47Z |3b|: so if run-program always searches PATH, i can skip the shell completely 2016-11-02T15:22:25Z |3b| supposes i might want to pass :FORCE-SHELL NIL to make sure 2016-11-02T15:22:40Z |3b|: or if it does call the shell, that it does so safely 2016-11-02T15:23:10Z phoe__ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:23:16Z igam: |3b|: to pass data to subshells, it would be better to use a pipe! 2016-11-02T15:23:42Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:23:46Z |3b|: igam: options, not data from the subprocess point of view, and i don't control the subprocess 2016-11-02T15:23:54Z igam: ok 2016-11-02T15:24:16Z igam: Then yes, you'd have to quote a lot of characters. 2016-11-02T15:24:49Z igam: In bash I do: function quote_shell_argument(){ echo "$1" | sed -e 's,\([^-+=:/_,.~^A-Za-z0-9]\),\\\1,g' ; } # perhaps a little overkill, but it works. 2016-11-02T15:24:49Z igam: 2016-11-02T15:25:31Z igam: -+=:/_,.~^A-Za-z0-9 are the shell-safe characters. 2016-11-02T15:25:32Z |3b|: yeah, skipping shell entirely is easier if i can do that :) 2016-11-02T15:26:39Z phoe__: igam: and it escapes all characters which are not on that list, correct? 2016-11-02T15:26:48Z igam: yes. 2016-11-02T15:26:54Z phoe__: sounds nice. 2016-11-02T15:28:57Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T15:29:23Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:30:08Z flip214: _death: please take a look at my "master" branch, there are a few commits for you to get "inspired" from. 2016-11-02T15:35:08Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:35:25Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:39:34Z prole joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:42:37Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:44:11Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T15:46:23Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:47:08Z salva0 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:47:38Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-11-02T15:47:48Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:51:49Z salva0 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:52:38Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:52:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:52:55Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:53:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:53:36Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T15:53:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:54:03Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:54:09Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:58:30Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:59:21Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:59:39Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T15:59:46Z sjl: j 2016-11-02T16:00:14Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:03:34Z heurist__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T16:04:38Z pipping: |3b|: As you don't interpolate the arguments into a string, the shell will not evaluate them 2016-11-02T16:05:05Z pipping: |3b|: (run-program '("echo" "$PATH")) will give you "$PATH" on every lisp implementation 2016-11-02T16:06:13Z igam: (run-program '("bash" "-c" "echo $PATH")) 2016-11-02T16:06:34Z igam: or (getenv "PATH"). 2016-11-02T16:06:52Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T16:07:31Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:09:01Z pipping: igam: the point to keep $PATH from being evaluated here... 2016-11-02T16:09:23Z igam: Oh ok. So (run-program '("echo" "$PATH")) is good. 2016-11-02T16:09:34Z igam: It'll execute /bin/echo 2016-11-02T16:10:18Z pipping: yes. (/usr/bin/echo in my case and /wtf/wtf/wtf/echo on nixos) 2016-11-02T16:10:50Z igam: wft? 2016-11-02T16:11:30Z pipping: also, if you wanted the value of $PATH you'd use (uiop:getenv "PATH") indeed 2016-11-02T16:14:00Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:18:54Z |3b|: pipping: cool, thanks for checking :) 2016-11-02T16:19:48Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:20:58Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T16:24:13Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-11-02T16:26:44Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T16:32:04Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T16:42:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T16:49:12Z flacko joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:49:55Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:51:00Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:51:21Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-11-02T16:52:58Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T16:54:35Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:02:39Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:03:56Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:05:02Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:05:15Z phoe__ left #lisp 2016-11-02T17:06:31Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:07:32Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:12:12Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:14:32Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:16:14Z holomorph joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:18:39Z holomorph: hi, i'm wondering what a possible use case is for "binding var to nil when evaluating result-form" in do-symbols and friends 2016-11-02T17:20:36Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:20:56Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:23:17Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:28:35Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:29:13Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:31:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:31:56Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:32:05Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:33:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:33:48Z MetaHert` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:34:17Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:36:34Z przl_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:37:53Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-02T17:39:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:40:47Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:41:18Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:42:45Z Dan1973 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-11-02T17:45:03Z phoe_: holomorph: what do you mean? 2016-11-02T17:45:59Z phoe_: as in (do-symbols (nil ...) ...) ? 2016-11-02T17:46:27Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:46:52Z Xach joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:47:09Z holomorph: phoe_: why would one have var in result-form in the first place, as in (do-symbols (var foo var) ...) 2016-11-02T17:47:30Z holomorph: or having result-form do any sort of operation on var 2016-11-02T17:47:53Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-02T17:49:04Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:49:34Z phoe_: I don't know. Where have you seen it used? 2016-11-02T17:50:43Z holomorph: phoe_: i haven't, but what i quoted above is paraphrased from the spec 2016-11-02T17:51:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:51:37Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:54:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:56:54Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T17:59:01Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:59:24Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-11-02T17:59:40Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:00:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T18:02:07Z macdavid313 quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T18:06:09Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:06:22Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T18:07:17Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:07:35Z White_Flame: holomorph: there's no defined traversal order for symbols in a package, so I think that binding to NIL is just to prevent relying on the last one being something particular 2016-11-02T18:07:42Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:07:55Z White_Flame: however, I think it would have made more sense if var was simply not bound when result-form is evaluated 2016-11-02T18:08:45Z flip214: Can I define a class with a :allocation :class slot that has a :initform (error ...)? Seems not. http://paste.lisp.org/display/330141 2016-11-02T18:08:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:09:12Z flip214: I'd like to make sure that derived classes override the :initform. 2016-11-02T18:09:20Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:09:55Z White_Flame: defclass creates the class, so that class slot has its initform run... 2016-11-02T18:10:36Z phoe_: flip214: :CLASS-allocated slots are allocated when the class is created. 2016-11-02T18:10:43Z phoe_: So basically during DEFCLASS. 2016-11-02T18:10:59Z phoe_: So when you call DEFCLASS STATIC-ERROR the ERROR is called which results in an error. 2016-11-02T18:11:02Z phoe_: Sounds sane. 2016-11-02T18:11:35Z White_Flame: of course, that error being thrown prevents the class from actually being created 2016-11-02T18:11:37Z phoe_: But hey, what are you trying to attempt by this? 2016-11-02T18:11:44Z phoe_: s/attempt/achieve/ 2016-11-02T18:14:56Z White_Flame: Is there some way to pass in a value of the allocation class slot that prevents calling its initform? 2016-11-02T18:15:25Z White_Flame: akin to initargs on instances skipping their slots' initforms 2016-11-02T18:17:28Z flip214: I could have the parent class with :allocation :instance 2016-11-02T18:17:35Z flip214: and then the child classes could override 2016-11-02T18:17:43Z White_Flame: flip214: I think you're going to have to get into the MOP if you want this specific behavior 2016-11-02T18:17:46Z flip214: as long as no parent class instance gets created that might work out fine 2016-11-02T18:18:01Z White_Flame: is that a legal override? 2016-11-02T18:18:33Z White_Flame: oh, you don't mean child classes overriding the allocation type 2016-11-02T18:20:47Z holomorph: White_Flame: agreed, thanks 2016-11-02T18:21:32Z flip214: White_Flame: yes, I meant "child classes overriding the allocation type" 2016-11-02T18:21:37Z flip214: why shouldn't that be allowed? 2016-11-02T18:21:48Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-11-02T18:21:49Z flip214: inefficient, perhaps, yeah, because they'd have the space reserved too 2016-11-02T18:22:00Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T18:22:05Z phoe_: uh 2016-11-02T18:22:12Z phoe_: you want to create children and not the parent? 2016-11-02T18:22:46Z White_Flame: as far as the code so far goes, he doesn't want the parent _class_ created? :) 2016-11-02T18:23:16Z phoe_: oh 2016-11-02T18:23:17Z phoe_: uh 2016-11-02T18:23:19Z phoe_: wait, what 2016-11-02T18:23:23Z flip214: no *instances* of the parent class 2016-11-02T18:23:26Z phoe_: oooh 2016-11-02T18:23:27Z phoe_: https://github.com/slyrus/mcclim/blob/master/protocol-classes.lisp 2016-11-02T18:23:29Z phoe_: this then. 2016-11-02T18:23:35Z phoe_: just define a constructor that errors. 2016-11-02T18:23:43Z phoe_: (defclass foo () ()) 2016-11-02T18:24:00Z phoe_: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((foo foo)) (error)) 2016-11-02T18:24:36Z flip214: phoe_: oh yeah, right. but then I'd need to have a :around in every child class, don't I? 2016-11-02T18:24:36Z White_Flame: that'll match all derived types by default, though 2016-11-02T18:24:43Z phoe_: flip214: no, why? 2016-11-02T18:24:47Z phoe_: oh, wait wait 2016-11-02T18:25:00Z phoe_: I oversimplified stuff 2016-11-02T18:25:08Z phoe_: basically - look at the McClim DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS macro 2016-11-02T18:25:12Z phoe_: which does exactly what you want 2016-11-02T18:25:35Z phoe_: the constructor also performs a check whether the allocated object has its most specific type equal to the protocol class 2016-11-02T18:25:40Z phoe_: if it doesn't, all's fine 2016-11-02T18:25:40Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:25:43Z phoe_: if it does, error 2016-11-02T18:25:58Z phoe_: it's in the code, basically 2016-11-02T18:26:19Z flip214: yeah, thanks 2016-11-02T18:26:29Z phoe_: (when (eq (class-of object) the-class) (error)) 2016-11-02T18:27:08Z flip214: saw that 2016-11-02T18:27:42Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:27:49Z phoe_: it's a very useful macro 2016-11-02T18:31:25Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:32:08Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T18:38:16Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T18:39:27Z holomorph left #lisp 2016-11-02T18:40:55Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T18:41:56Z ebrasca: phoe_: hi 2016-11-02T18:42:15Z prole quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-11-02T18:42:21Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:42:38Z phoe_: ebrasca: hey! 2016-11-02T18:45:04Z ebrasca: phoe_: Now I have some Context sensitive grammars but I need integrate with my project. 2016-11-02T18:47:33Z phoe_: ebrasca: gotcha. 2016-11-02T18:47:39Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T18:48:40Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T18:49:33Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T18:51:10Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:51:44Z ebrasca: phoe_: what will you do next friday? 2016-11-02T18:52:44Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:54:07Z ebrasca: phoe_: (meting?) 2016-11-02T18:56:59Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-11-02T18:57:08Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T18:57:20Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:05:59Z phoe_: ebrasca: probably some Lisp basics 2016-11-02T19:06:06Z phoe_: and helping people set their environments 2016-11-02T19:08:00Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:08:12Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T19:08:13Z ebrasca: Can I make symbol from gensym? 2016-11-02T19:12:17Z shrdlu68: ebrasca: Yeah... 2016-11-02T19:13:16Z ebrasca: shrdlu68: how? 2016-11-02T19:15:10Z shrdlu68: ebrasca: (let ((x (gensym))) (print x)) 2016-11-02T19:17:12Z flacko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-11-02T19:17:39Z shrdlu68: ebrasca: Or what do you mean? 2016-11-02T19:19:13Z ebrasca: shrdlu68: (let ((x (gensym))) 2016-11-02T19:19:13Z ebrasca: (setf (gethash x *l-system-clauses*) 2016-11-02T19:19:13Z ebrasca: 7) 2016-11-02T19:19:13Z ebrasca: (gethash x *l-system-clauses*)) 2016-11-02T19:20:06Z pierpa: looks ok. what is the problem? 2016-11-02T19:20:53Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:21:10Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:21:28Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-11-02T19:21:28Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:21:31Z shrdlu68: Are CLOS accessors just regular methods? 2016-11-02T19:22:21Z ebrasca: pierpa: shrdlu68: Thanks you. 2016-11-02T19:22:59Z pierpa: shrdlu68: afaik, yes. 2016-11-02T19:23:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:24:47Z phoe_: ebrasca: gensym *IS* a symbol. 2016-11-02T19:24:59Z phoe_: a GENerated SYMbol, to be precise. 2016-11-02T19:26:11Z phoe_: The only trouble with gensyms is that they are not printable in a readable way. 2016-11-02T19:26:24Z phoe_: As in - a gensym might print as #:G180. 2016-11-02T19:26:33Z phoe_: Reading #:G180 will create a *different* symbol with the same name. 2016-11-02T19:27:08Z phoe_: But in general (eq '#:G170 '#:G170) is always NIl. 2016-11-02T19:27:35Z shrdlu68: pierpa: So can I pass a method I've specialized on a class to `with-accessors`? 2016-11-02T19:28:44Z Xach: shrdlu68: you pass the name of a generic function. 2016-11-02T19:30:35Z shrdlu68: Wow. 2016-11-02T19:32:04Z Xach: with-accessors is a very thin wrapper that sets up symbol-macros and nothing else, really. 2016-11-02T19:32:06Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T19:32:29Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T19:34:10Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:36:17Z Xach: M-. into it to see how little it really does. 2016-11-02T19:38:23Z ebrasca: work nconcing from iterate like nconc? 2016-11-02T19:38:59Z shrdlu68: If I have a vector with different fields, such as ASN.1 or TLS, I can define a class and methods that access the different fields and return them. The only problem is that it would be something like a function call every time one of the fields is accessed. 2016-11-02T19:42:01Z ebrasca: http://pastebin.com/9ytf5UCp 2016-11-02T19:43:51Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:44:08Z ebrasca: why nconcing from iterate don't change original data destructively? 2016-11-02T19:47:02Z wccoder joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:47:09Z wccoder quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T19:47:14Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:48:12Z wccoder joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:48:15Z wccoder quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T19:48:37Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:48:46Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:49:03Z phoe_: clhs nconc 2016-11-02T19:49:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm 2016-11-02T19:49:20Z ewiltshi left #lisp 2016-11-02T19:50:12Z phoe_: because you don't modify original data at all? 2016-11-02T19:50:17Z phoe_: in that NCONCING clause 2016-11-02T19:50:20Z phoe_: you have an IF with two branches 2016-11-02T19:50:23Z phoe_: APPLY creates a fresh list 2016-11-02T19:50:27Z phoe_: LIST creates a fresh list 2016-11-02T19:50:34Z phoe_: so you NCONC freshly created lists 2016-11-02T19:50:37Z shrdlu68: ebrasca: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aaeb.htm 2016-11-02T19:50:42Z phoe_: so there's nothing to modify destructively 2016-11-02T19:51:25Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:54:02Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T19:54:57Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T19:56:02Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:56:02Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:56:20Z ismed joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:58:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-02T19:59:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:00:27Z ebrasca: The nconc (or nconcing) construct is similar to the append construct, " but its list values are concatenated as if by the function nconc. " 2016-11-02T20:00:58Z ebrasca: I don't understand what mean with second part. 2016-11-02T20:01:58Z phoe_: Look at what you're nconcing. 2016-11-02T20:02:05Z phoe_: You are not nconcing original data. 2016-11-02T20:02:10Z phoe_: You're nconcing newly created lists. 2016-11-02T20:02:14Z phoe_: The original data is not touched. 2016-11-02T20:02:51Z mood: ebrasca: APPEND copies its arguments (except the last), stitching those copies together. NCONC stitches all arguments together. You are creating new lists that are then stitched together using NCONC. 2016-11-02T20:03:45Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T20:05:27Z rpg_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-11-02T20:10:20Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T20:12:04Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-11-02T20:14:02Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:16:08Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T20:16:38Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:24:16Z neoncont_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T20:24:36Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:27:52Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_listen 2016-11-02T20:27:59Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T20:28:08Z warweasle_listen is now known as ww_listening 2016-11-02T20:33:56Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:35:15Z jokleinn quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T20:36:11Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:37:02Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:39:16Z ebrasca is now known as ebrasca-afk 2016-11-02T20:46:33Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-11-02T20:47:09Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T20:48:04Z defaultxr quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-11-02T20:48:35Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:49:13Z defaultxr quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T20:49:36Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:49:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-02T20:49:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:53:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-11-02T20:55:42Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:00:18Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:02:02Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:03:08Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:04:40Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:06:02Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:06:26Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-11-02T21:12:41Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:14:45Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:15:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:18:51Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-11-02T21:18:55Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:18:59Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:19:18Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:19:38Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:21:39Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:23:08Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:23:17Z Dan1973 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:23:36Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:24:49Z raydeejay: how do I say 'echo "blah" | festival --tts' in CL? 2016-11-02T21:25:28Z phoe_: raydeejay: what's festival? 2016-11-02T21:25:41Z phoe_: oh, speech synthesis 2016-11-02T21:26:17Z phoe_: I think you grab UIOP and run an application while feeling it a string "blah" as stdin 2016-11-02T21:26:39Z White_Flame: raydeejay: you need to start 2 processes separately, and configure their stdin & stdout 2016-11-02T21:26:44Z jasom: mordocai: ah, so it does. And it works with pathnames for me (make sure you are passing a pathname and not a namestring) 2016-11-02T21:27:02Z raydeejay: what, really, to send some text to festival? 2016-11-02T21:27:10Z White_Flame: oh, n/m, what phoe_ said, because you don't really have 2 meaningful executables 2016-11-02T21:27:16Z jasom: mordocai: e.g. (cl-whoize #p"/home/jasom/foo.html") will work but (cl-whoize "/home/jaosm/foo.html") will not do what you expect 2016-11-02T21:27:18Z raydeejay: ah xD 2016-11-02T21:27:39Z mordocai: jasom: Yeah, I think I was doing the latter. Will try the former. 2016-11-02T21:28:46Z mordocai: TIL that festival has a scheme interface 2016-11-02T21:29:52Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-02T21:30:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:30:32Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:30:45Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:31:22Z raydeejay: to answer my own question: (uiop:run-program '("festival" "--tts") :input '("hello")) 2016-11-02T21:32:26Z pipping: raydeejay: indeed 2016-11-02T21:37:02Z phoe_: raydeejay: :D 2016-11-02T21:38:48Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:41:33Z pipping: notably, input from a foreign stream is not as portable as input from a file (which is how input from a string is implemented iirc) 2016-11-02T21:42:13Z pipping: where by foreign I mean: one that the CL implementation's run-program didn't create and hand out 2016-11-02T21:43:54Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T21:44:23Z raydeejay: well, not a problem for me :) 2016-11-02T21:47:16Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:47:45Z pipping: raydeejay: just targetting sbcl? 2016-11-02T21:48:19Z trinque: hi, is a hash table a reasonable data structure in CL if I only care about key lookup? (i.e. have I seen this string before?) 2016-11-02T21:48:31Z trinque: I naively assume I could just use a hash table with t as values 2016-11-02T21:48:33Z raydeejay: pipping: yeah, this is a personal project 2016-11-02T21:48:34Z White_Flame: you mean a hash set? sure 2016-11-02T21:48:42Z White_Flame: I've done exactly that with T values 2016-11-02T21:48:53Z White_Flame: or sometimes just Key->Key can be easier 2016-11-02T21:49:07Z trinque: cool. I wasn't sure if there was a more appropriate data structure. 2016-11-02T21:49:32Z White_Flame: as far as the standard structures go, it's appropriate. there are certainly other data structure libraries around otherwise 2016-11-02T21:49:54Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:50:13Z raydeejay stores all his data in a Christmas tree 2016-11-02T21:50:23Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-11-02T21:51:30Z trinque: ah yes, the trusty red-green tree 2016-11-02T21:51:44Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:51:45Z phoe_: raydeejay: is your data '(HO HO HO)? 2016-11-02T21:52:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-02T21:52:42Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:54:45Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-02T21:58:20Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T21:58:22Z raydeejay: YES 2016-11-02T21:58:42Z raydeejay: and an occasional tangerine 2016-11-02T22:08:01Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-11-02T22:08:40Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T22:09:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T22:11:12Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T22:11:21Z pipping: raydeejay: great. now I can't wait for christmas anymore. :/ 2016-11-02T22:12:14Z jasom: pipping: only 53 days to go 2016-11-02T22:13:13Z pipping: fortunately, the rain of tangerines already sets in quite a bit earlier than that 2016-11-02T22:17:36Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-11-02T22:22:56Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-11-02T22:27:14Z Einwq quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T22:29:46Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-11-02T22:30:58Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-02T22:34:00Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T22:34:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T22:37:11Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-02T22:39:46Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-02T22:55:21Z klltkr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T22:57:27Z jasom: jackdaniel: I'm just curious which utilities in osicat you needed that weren't in uiop? 2016-11-02T22:59:21Z phoe_: https://common-lisp.net/project/osicat/ 2016-11-02T22:59:27Z phoe_: > on POSIX-like systems, including Windows 2016-11-02T22:59:36Z phoe_: o_o 2016-11-02T22:59:57Z jasom: well Windows is more like POSIX than it is like Genera. 2016-11-02T23:00:09Z mrottenkolber: :-) 2016-11-02T23:00:22Z jasom: though the NT internals have a pretty heavy VAX influence IIRC 2016-11-02T23:00:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:03:04Z phoe_: "Why is Windows POSIX?" 2016-11-02T23:03:07Z phoe_: "well Windows is more like POSIX than it is like Genera." 2016-11-02T23:03:08Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T23:03:24Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:03:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T23:04:56Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T23:06:02Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:07:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T23:12:32Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-02T23:12:41Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:12:41Z jasom: That threw me too, but in its defense it does say "posix-like" rather than posix. 2016-11-02T23:12:49Z jasom: It's still an odd choice of terms 2016-11-02T23:12:51Z phoe_: Yeah. 2016-11-02T23:13:10Z jasom: symlinks, directories, processes *c. 2016-11-02T23:13:11Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:13:24Z phoe_: but hey, Lisp is POSIX too - do one thing and do it well 2016-11-02T23:13:36Z phoe_: it's not like, uh, for example, you can write whole programs in LOOP 2016-11-02T23:13:37Z jasom: environment as a string KV store 2016-11-02T23:13:39Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-02T23:13:39Z phoe_: it's just an iteration construct 2016-11-02T23:13:46Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Does anyone happen to know if there's a lisp for the iSeries? 2016-11-02T23:13:50Z phoe_: right? 2016-11-02T23:13:52Z mrottenkolber: I met a guy last weekend, really nice guy, he works in software testing. Basically, he tortures software products before his employer buys them. When he said he likes C, I joked: “Naturally, since your job is to find bugs.”, when I said I like Lisp he said: “Ah, the language you can write, but can’t read!" 2016-11-02T23:13:59Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:14:05Z mrottenkolber: He had a point. :-O 2016-11-02T23:14:29Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: ...Perl? 2016-11-02T23:14:30Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof_: https://lispy.wordpress.com/category/ibm/ <-- google finds this 2016-11-02T23:15:16Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: I never really read much perl, but I also heard of that connotation 2016-11-02T23:16:01Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-02T23:16:29Z raydeejay: that's ridiculous 2016-11-02T23:16:37Z raydeejay: of course you can (READ) Lisp 2016-11-02T23:16:47Z mrottenkolber: haha 2016-11-02T23:16:55Z mrottenkolber: good comeback 2016-11-02T23:16:56Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof_: there is linux/POWER builds of sbcl, and you can run linux on an iSeries 2016-11-02T23:19:04Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-02T23:19:52Z pyx joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:19:58Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-02T23:20:10Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: yes, just what raydeejay said 2016-11-02T23:20:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:20:21Z phoe_: actually it's other languages which are not READable 2016-11-02T23:20:43Z raydeejay: I like Uncle Bob's comeback: 2016-11-02T23:20:53Z raydeejay: "first, write print("hello")" 2016-11-02T23:21:09Z raydeejay: "now, move the left paren to the left (print "hello")" 2016-11-02T23:21:16Z raydeejay: "THAT'S IT! YOU CAN READ LISP NOW!" 2016-11-02T23:21:41Z mrottenkolber: I guess Lisp code tends to be quite dense 2016-11-02T23:22:36Z Xach: Some can be pretty hard to read, but it depends on the author and the style too. 2016-11-02T23:22:45Z attila_lendvai: yes, it's easier to introduce higher level abstractions in lisp, and if people live with that possibility then code tends to get shorter 2016-11-02T23:22:48Z Xach: And how close the deadline was and how complicated the project. 2016-11-02T23:23:08Z phoe_: Xach: that applies regardless of the language 2016-11-02T23:23:33Z raydeejay would like to point out that software is not *really* about deadlines, the software "business" is 2016-11-02T23:23:52Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: but if you write bad lisp code, I think it can get *really* bad 2016-11-02T23:24:12Z mrottenkolber: Why is there no obfuscated CL contest yet? 2016-11-02T23:24:18Z mrottenkolber: omg we need this 2016-11-02T23:24:39Z mrottenkolber: winner gets invited to next ELS? :P 2016-11-02T23:26:56Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: obfuscated lisp? 2016-11-02T23:27:04Z phoe_: sure thing 2016-11-02T23:27:10Z phoe_: reader macros 2016-11-02T23:27:20Z phoe_: and suddenly *ANY* code is valid Lisp 2016-11-02T23:27:46Z mrottenkolber: hmm yeah maybe its too “easy” 2016-11-02T23:28:08Z raydeejay: it's not really obfuscated, but I'm fond of having a 🐟 function somewhere, if possible 2016-11-02T23:28:37Z mrottenkolber: raydeejay: is that a unicode turd? 2016-11-02T23:28:42Z phoe_: * (defun 🐟 () 'tasty) 2016-11-02T23:28:42Z phoe_: 🐟 2016-11-02T23:28:46Z raydeejay: FISH 2016-11-02T23:28:48Z phoe_: * (🐟) 2016-11-02T23:28:48Z phoe_: TASTY 2016-11-02T23:28:52Z phoe_: woop, works 2016-11-02T23:28:53Z pichar joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:29:00Z raydeejay: of course it works 2016-11-02T23:29:06Z raydeejay: why wouldn't it work? :D 2016-11-02T23:29:27Z mrottenkolber: I have used lots of greek/math symbols in lisp code in the past 2016-11-02T23:29:48Z fouric: ??? 2016-11-02T23:29:51Z phoe_: oh gods 2016-11-02T23:29:56Z phoe_: combining APL keyboard 2016-11-02T23:29:59Z White_Flame: The uneducated "Lisp is hard to read!" is just confused by parens. The educated "Lisp is hard to read!" doesn't like the fact that code can be configured to mean other things. 2016-11-02T23:30:00Z fouric: phoe_: are you using some sort of unicode symbol that isn't ignored by the reader? 2016-11-02T23:30:01Z phoe_: with Common Lisp's power 2016-11-02T23:30:06Z phoe_: fouric: ignored? 2016-11-02T23:30:08Z raydeejay: heh 2016-11-02T23:30:09Z phoe_: why would it be ignored? 2016-11-02T23:30:25Z fouric literally pasted that snippet into SBCL prompt and it tried to create a function named NIL 2016-11-02T23:30:44Z fouric: ...the reader will ignore most consecutive whitespace characters, right? 2016-11-02T23:30:49Z phoe_: yes 2016-11-02T23:30:54Z mrottenkolber: fouric: long live CCL :p 2016-11-02T23:31:03Z phoe_: hey, my SBCL accepted that though 2016-11-02T23:31:08Z raydeejay: of course 2016-11-02T23:31:10Z fouric: ...so wouldn't (defun () 'tasty) be read the same as (defun () 'tasty) then? 2016-11-02T23:31:13Z raydeejay: I bet it's the IRC client 2016-11-02T23:31:20Z phoe_: hey 2016-11-02T23:31:21Z phoe_: wait 2016-11-02T23:31:26Z _death: Lisp gives greater freedom in expression than many other languages, and so style and good taste become more important.. but the (Common) Lisp community is quite attached to Lisp traditions, and so the style of the Sages of Lisp is passed on 2016-11-02T23:31:28Z phoe_: fouric: you don't see the unicode symbol 2016-11-02T23:31:39Z raydeejay: yeah, you're lacking a fish there 2016-11-02T23:32:00Z phoe_: a #\FISH to be exact 2016-11-02T23:32:05Z klltkr: Poor fouric 2016-11-02T23:32:08Z mrottenkolber: I can’t render the fish either :/ I get a box with codes 2016-11-02T23:32:17Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: fonts 2016-11-02T23:32:23Z klltkr: Give a man a fish... 2016-11-02T23:32:31Z White_Flame: I can't render it either, but (describe #\) tells me it's FISH 2016-11-02T23:32:51Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:32:52Z raydeejay: if you're using emacs... http://endlessparentheses.com/manually-choose-a-fallback-font-for-unicode.html 2016-11-02T23:32:55Z raydeejay: no more legos 2016-11-02T23:33:11Z White_Flame: both the irc client and emacs don't render it for me 2016-11-02T23:33:56Z fouric can get SBCL to print it in a normal terminal 2016-11-02T23:34:00Z fouric: man 2016-11-02T23:34:10Z fouric: i was so psyched about the idea of a function named " " 2016-11-02T23:34:11Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-11-02T23:34:16Z raydeejay: sure 2016-11-02T23:34:21Z fiddlerwoaroof_ can see the fish in erc 2016-11-02T23:34:27Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-02T23:34:28Z White_Flame: you can name it | | 2016-11-02T23:34:28Z raydeejay: (defun | | () (blah...)) 2016-11-02T23:34:43Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:34:58Z raydeejay: for extra fun, also define | |, | | and | | 2016-11-02T23:34:59Z _death: or (defun \ () ...) 2016-11-02T23:35:02Z fouric: (it'O.o 2016-11-02T23:35:08Z fiddlerwoaroof_: fouric: you can also create functions with an non-breaking space in their names. 2016-11-02T23:35:16Z fouric: neat! 2016-11-02T23:35:18Z raydeejay: or an invisible space 2016-11-02T23:35:22Z fouric: erg 2016-11-02T23:35:27Z fouric: aren't spaces already... 2016-11-02T23:35:29Z fouric: ...invisible? 2016-11-02T23:35:32Z raydeejay: no 2016-11-02T23:35:33Z raydeejay: like 2016-11-02T23:35:44Z White_Flame: (defun \( () #\)) 2016-11-02T23:35:47Z ebrasca-afk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T23:35:49Z raydeejay: you can't tell that there is a sp⁣ace in the word "space" back there 2016-11-02T23:36:03Z fouric: oh 2016-11-02T23:36:06Z fouric: holy cow 2016-11-02T23:36:08Z fouric: that's evil 2016-11-02T23:36:11Z raydeejay: :D 2016-11-02T23:36:17Z fouric: so you could have a FOO and a FOO with an invisible space 2016-11-02T23:36:21Z raydeejay: or three 2016-11-02T23:36:29Z fouric: ...and they would look the same in source, but be completely different functions? 2016-11-02T23:36:31Z fiddlerwoaroof_: With a nbsp, the second word of the function name looks like the first argument 2016-11-02T23:36:32Z White_Flame: reminds me of https://twitter.com/peterritchie/status/534011965132120064 2016-11-02T23:37:07Z raydeejay: you can then write code such as (foo (foo foo) (foo) (foo foo (foo foo foo)))... 2016-11-02T23:37:43Z fiddlerwoaroof_: http://www.rubyinside.com/the-split-is-not-enough-whitespace-shenigans-for-rubyists-5980.html 2016-11-02T23:37:44Z raydeejay: lol, THAT thing in the tweet is eviler 2016-11-02T23:37:50Z mrottenkolber: raydeejay: ELS talk confirmed 2016-11-02T23:37:56Z White_Flame: (buffalo (buffalo buffalo) (buffalo) (buffalo buffalo (buffalo buffalo buffalo))) 2016-11-02T23:38:22Z raydeejay: mrottenkolber: um? xD 2016-11-02T23:38:53Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-02T23:39:02Z raydeejay: oh, brussels is a bit far away :/ 2016-11-02T23:39:18Z Xach: I would like to go to brussels 2016-11-02T23:39:19Z raydeejay: plus it's my birthday! xD 2016-11-02T23:39:49Z mrottenkolber: oh I didn’t know ELS was confirmed 2016-11-02T23:39:58Z raydeejay: have a beer for me ^^ 2016-11-02T23:41:28Z mrottenkolber: I am not sure what the colocation means, is it one fee for all, or an optional fee to also enter 2016-11-02T23:43:48Z klltkr: In Doric (the dialect of Scots in north east Scotland, where I'm from), the following is a legal sentence: fit fit fits fit fit 2016-11-02T23:43:57Z mrottenkolber: not sure if I want to submit a paper... I should kinda 2016-11-02T23:44:41Z raydeejay: klltkr: "no hi cap cap cap" is a legal (and meaningful) sentence in Catalan 2016-11-02T23:46:11Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:48:41Z klltkr: raydeejay, are you from Catalonia? 2016-11-02T23:48:55Z raydeejay: es 2016-11-02T23:49:00Z raydeejay: I mean yes 2016-11-02T23:49:12Z klltkr: Are you pro independence? 2016-11-02T23:49:32Z raydeejay: yes 2016-11-02T23:49:42Z klltkr: High five! 2016-11-02T23:49:52Z klltkr: :) 2016-11-02T23:49:58Z John[Lisbeth] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-02T23:50:00Z _death: isha naala naala naala naala et hadelet bifnei baala.. 2016-11-02T23:50:04Z TMA: I wonder why... what's the matter with independence? 2016-11-02T23:50:35Z raydeejay: there are many reasons for many people 2016-11-02T23:50:50Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:51:01Z raydeejay: some are about actual things happening now, some are about recent years, some date back centuries 2016-11-02T23:51:40Z raydeejay: some are ideological, some are political, some are economic, emotional... 2016-11-02T23:51:58Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-11-02T23:52:06Z mrottenkolber: raydeejay: klltkr: is it true that catalonia is a rich region compared to the rest of spain, and they see spain as a burden 2016-11-02T23:52:12Z mrottenkolber: ? 2016-11-02T23:52:28Z phoe_: looks like #lisp-catalonia 2016-11-02T23:52:32Z raydeejay: short and simplistic answer would "yes" 2016-11-02T23:52:38Z raydeejay agrees with phoe_ 2016-11-02T23:52:43Z raydeejay: which may not be a bad thing... xD 2016-11-02T23:53:05Z TMA: somehow the idea is that with independence THIS-OR-THAT would be better, but in the end it all depends where is the leadership on the corrupt -- inept scale ... which is a value independent of independence 2016-11-02T23:54:11Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-02T23:54:32Z phoe_: TMA: (WITH-INDEPENDENCE (CATALONIA) ...) 2016-11-02T23:54:39Z phoe_: 'tis but a simple macro 2016-11-02T23:54:46Z raydeejay: it's more about how the corruption doesn't matter in relation to the amount of moeny available, for example 2016-11-02T23:55:12Z TMA: phoe_: exactly 2016-11-02T23:57:23Z raydeejay: but this is really not the place to discuss it, for many reasons too, one being that it is #lisp :) 2016-11-03T00:02:23Z GoZoner quit (Quit: Gone to sleep. 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Are they elements to be tested by themselves, or are they empty sublists? 2016-11-03T00:36:38Z White_Flame: so it depends on your particular use of trees 2016-11-03T00:36:45Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T00:36:54Z Xach: is that a problem? the trees are made of conses. 2016-11-03T00:36:59Z Xach: Not of lists. 2016-11-03T00:37:19Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2016-11-03T00:37:23Z White_Flame: oh, true. I'm thinking of our deep-mapcar etc which recurses through lists 2016-11-03T00:37:47Z White_Flame: however, lists-of-lists do still count as trees. There's no requirement they be binary trees 2016-11-03T00:38:13Z White_Flame: (unless that's mrottenkolber's intent) 2016-11-03T00:39:08Z phoe_: the edge cases are pretty weird though 2016-11-03T00:39:27Z phoe_: (CAR X) ;=> NIL (CDR X) ;=> NIL 2016-11-03T00:39:33Z John[Lisbeth] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T00:39:37Z White_Flame: right. I've got a version that also processes the last elements of dotted lists, which brings in even more odd cases 2016-11-03T00:39:47Z phoe_: there are at least three possibilities of X that satisfy these constraints 2016-11-03T00:40:04Z phoe_: well, two actually 2016-11-03T00:40:12Z phoe_: since second and third are the same. 2016-11-03T00:40:29Z White_Flame: (NIL . NIL) and (NIL)? 2016-11-03T00:40:33Z scottj left #lisp 2016-11-03T00:40:34Z phoe_: yes 2016-11-03T00:40:46Z phoe_: NIL and (NIL) are the possibilities I was thinking of 2016-11-03T00:40:54Z phoe_: and also (NIL . NIL) which is the same as (NIL) 2016-11-03T00:52:43Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-03T00:54:18Z yrdz`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T00:54:52Z yrdz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T00:56:06Z drl quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-11-03T01:01:59Z mrottenkolber: there is no format directive that accepts a number and repeats the substring that many times, is there? 2016-11-03T01:02:48Z drl joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:04:29Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:15:53Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: (format t "~v@{~A~:*~}" 5 "hi") 2016-11-03T01:16:20Z mrottenkolber: oh nice 2016-11-03T01:16:22Z phoe_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24754552/repeat-string-character-with-format 2016-11-03T01:16:35Z phoe_: the first SO response I got when I googled "lisp format repeat" 2016-11-03T01:19:09Z dmiles: symbol-value is suppsed to ignore lexical bindigns right? 2016-11-03T01:19:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T01:20:58Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:21:39Z phoe_: clhs symbol-value 2016-11-03T01:21:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 2016-11-03T01:22:05Z phoe_: "symbol-value cannot access the value of a lexical variable." 2016-11-03T01:22:28Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-03T01:26:48Z raydeejay wishes * was a generic function 2016-11-03T01:27:39Z raydeejay: were*? 2016-11-03T01:30:26Z phoe_: well, you can always define your own CL-USER-2 package 2016-11-03T01:30:33Z phoe_: where you import everything except a few symbols 2016-11-03T01:30:42Z phoe_: and create custom wrappers around the ones you don't want to import. 2016-11-03T01:30:56Z phoe_: you can define * as a generic function in such a package. 2016-11-03T01:34:49Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T01:35:09Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:36:04Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:36:33Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:38:02Z ryan_vw quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-03T01:39:28Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T01:45:06Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T01:46:38Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:47:07Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:49:54Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-03T01:52:06Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-11-03T01:58:02Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T01:58:18Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-11-03T02:03:41Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-11-03T02:06:37Z _death: * is not a good candidate for generic function.. it can be built upon nullary-*, unary-*, binary-* 2016-11-03T02:07:41Z _death: then, there's the question of what nullary-* be.. 2016-11-03T02:18:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T02:20:09Z phoe_: (*) 2016-11-03T02:20:11Z phoe_: ;=> 1 2016-11-03T02:20:14Z phoe_ goes to sleep 2016-11-03T02:21:44Z Bike: point: missed 2016-11-03T02:27:31Z cromachina: i suppose you would want whatever you are using with * to satisfy a monoid classification 2016-11-03T02:27:56Z cromachina: and that nullary-* produces the identity element of that object 2016-11-03T02:28:32Z cromachina: such that (* x (*)) == (* (*) x) 2016-11-03T02:29:20Z Bike: the point is that if you define your own monoid and binary-* on it, there's no way for a basic (*) call to know that it should return an element of that monoid in context 2016-11-03T02:29:39Z cromachina: ofc you would need type inference to determine what that should produce with that syntax i guess 2016-11-03T02:29:41Z cromachina: yeah that 2016-11-03T02:32:08Z huza joined #lisp 2016-11-03T02:32:12Z cromachina: perhaps a method of * that takes a type as an argument and produces the identity element 2016-11-03T02:33:23Z dmiles: sorry i had to answer the door,, thank you phoe_ for the response 2016-11-03T02:34:54Z dmiles: really what i was going to be asking is if a symbol did have a value accessable with symbol-value and it gets lexically bound for a momnent, would the symbol-value change as well? 2016-11-03T02:35:27Z dmiles: for instance *standard-output* 2016-11-03T02:35:41Z Bike: No. 2016-11-03T02:35:42Z cromachina: standard-output is a special variable 2016-11-03T02:35:59Z Bike: Though you can't do that with standard-output particularly, for a dynamic variable you can do it with, the values are unrelated. 2016-11-03T02:36:22Z dmiles: so LETing a special varable is not a lexical operation then>? 2016-11-03T02:36:33Z Bike: Yeah. 2016-11-03T02:36:37Z cromachina: it's defined as dynamic 2016-11-03T02:36:48Z Bike: it's more like progv. i mean, that's what a special variable is 2016-11-03T02:37:01Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2016-11-03T02:37:57Z dmiles: (let ((*standard-output* :foo)) (symbol-value '*standard-output*)) ==> :FOO ok good 2016-11-03T02:38:15Z Reinisch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-03T02:40:27Z cromachina: you should also verify that it is truly dynamic by writing a function that gets the symbol value of stdout outside of the lexical scope of that let block 2016-11-03T02:40:34Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T02:41:08Z dmiles: cromachina :) i had to do that right after i posted to irc.. i was like.. wait.. 2016-11-03T02:41:20Z dmiles: #S(SYSTEM::SYSTEM-STREAM) 2016-11-03T02:41:24Z dmiles: (/whew) 2016-11-03T02:41:37Z creat joined #lisp 2016-11-03T02:42:26Z dmiles: (symbol-value ' *standard-output*) ==> #S(SYSTEM::SYSTEM-STREAM) 2016-11-03T02:56:26Z benny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T02:58:17Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T02:58:34Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T02:58:44Z TMA joined #lisp 2016-11-03T02:59:18Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:02:12Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T03:02:39Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:02:53Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T03:02:56Z ewiltshi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T03:04:14Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T03:05:36Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T03:06:05Z pkkm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T03:06:05Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T03:06:32Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-03T03:07:10Z ym joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:07:27Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-03T03:07:43Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:09:43Z pkkm joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:15:36Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T03:17:51Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:19:15Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-03T03:20:32Z joshe joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:20:43Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T03:23:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:29:24Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T03:39:05Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:39:22Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-03T03:47:53Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:49:35Z loke: _death: Are you around? I'm trying to use your new API, but I have some problems with it. About 3 of them to be precise. 2016-11-03T03:50:26Z _death: I am around but this will have to wait 'til tomorrow, because I'm going to sleep (it's 05:50) 2016-11-03T03:51:03Z dmiles: do i understand correctly that only dynamic, constant and macro expanded symbols are consireed special variables? 2016-11-03T03:52:01Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T03:52:11Z loke: _death: OK. 2016-11-03T04:10:48Z GoZoner joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:14:50Z beach joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:14:52Z Bike: dmiles: no, 'special' and 'dynamic' are pretty much synonyms 2016-11-03T04:15:04Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-11-03T04:15:39Z loke: Hello beach! 2016-11-03T04:17:28Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-03T04:17:45Z safe joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:27:08Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-03T04:28:54Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:33:59Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-11-03T04:39:02Z beach: I think I finally figured out how to test at least part of the incremental parser for Common Lisp in Second Climacs. I use PPRINT to generate random buffer contents, and I generate random updates to it such that I can predict the change to the expression. Then I invoke the parser and check the result against what I predicted. 2016-11-03T04:39:08Z gendl: Hi, how can I make drakma (on Mac Sierra) use openssl which I installed through homebrew? 2016-11-03T04:39:32Z gendl: the openssl in /usr/bin and /usr/lib are old and don't support TLS v1.2. 2016-11-03T04:39:50Z gendl: the homebrew one is in /usr/local/bin/ and /usr/local/lib/ 2016-11-03T04:40:00Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:46:27Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-03T04:46:43Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:48:15Z GoZoner quit (Quit: Gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-03T04:49:52Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:52:39Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-03T04:57:10Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-03T04:57:31Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T04:59:56Z gendl: Well, fixed it by copying the libssl.dylib into the same directory as the CCL/Gendl executable. Doesn't feel right but works. 2016-11-03T05:00:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:04:13Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:04:42Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:05:44Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T05:05:49Z vap1 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:07:27Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T05:09:01Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:10:27Z fouric: beach: incremental parser? like an incremental (READ)? 2016-11-03T05:10:37Z gendl: ok fixed it more properly by linking /usr/local/Cellar/openssl/1.0.2j/lib/libssl.1.0.0.dylib to /usr/local/lib/libssl.dylib. 2016-11-03T05:11:19Z beach: fouric: Yes, that's the novelty compared to (first) Climacs. I use (a slightly modified version of) READ to parse the buffer contents. 2016-11-03T05:11:54Z beach: Or, rather, I use the SICL reader, which can be customized to do what I need. 2016-11-03T05:12:01Z fouric: ...and i'm guessing that the "incremental" means that if the form it's reading is incomplete, it returns what it *was* able to read, right? 2016-11-03T05:12:35Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:12:41Z beach: Incremental means that if there is a modification in the buffer, it can reuse most of the results rather than parsing the entire buffer again. 2016-11-03T05:13:13Z beach: It has to be fast, because it must parse the entire buffer at typing speed. 2016-11-03T05:13:29Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T05:13:42Z fouric: ah! that makes sense 2016-11-03T05:14:00Z fouric: ...so if it attempts to parse an incomplete form, then, does it just fail like normal but...more quickly? 2016-11-03T05:14:23Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:15:23Z beach: If there is an incomplete form (it reaches the end of the buffer) then it can still reuse the result of reading nested forms, and then the reader is customized to indicate that the form was incomplete, and this fact will be indicated to the user by some form of highlighting. 2016-11-03T05:15:50Z fouric: neat! 2016-11-03T05:15:59Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:16:08Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-03T05:16:13Z beach: It is an editor after all, so it has to be tolerant when it comes to invalid buffer contents. 2016-11-03T05:17:12Z beach: I am hoping to get a significantly better Common Lisp parser than what (first) Climacs had, and way better than what Emacs can do. 2016-11-03T05:19:27Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:28:37Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-03T05:32:21Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-03T05:32:57Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T05:37:52Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T05:38:22Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:45:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:47:08Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-03T05:51:30Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T05:52:08Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:52:27Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T05:53:02Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T05:54:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T05:57:44Z rjid: beach, I was reading the last part of what you wrote on #lisp. I was thinking that maybe you're attaching rules (something like synthesized attributes) to the productions of the grammar. If not what kind of technique are you using in order to implement a more "tolerant" parser? Further, which kind of parser are you using: recursive-descent parsing or other kinds? 2016-11-03T05:58:54Z rjid: Sorry if my questions are too general and not very precise. 2016-11-03T05:59:23Z beach: rjid: In order to make the result as close as possible to what the compiler would do, I use the Common Lisp READ function to parse, so it is recursive descent, but with a twist (custom readtables and such). 2016-11-03T06:00:28Z beach: In (first) Climacs, I used a table-driven LR grammar, but that only works when the language is static. 2016-11-03T06:03:40Z beach: Maybe I am not explaining it very well. Sorry, if so. 2016-11-03T06:07:35Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-03T06:10:18Z drl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T06:11:42Z eMBee quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-03T06:11:52Z eMBee joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:13:19Z rjid: Your answer was very clear.If possible I would like to know additional information about the input buffering technique used to reduce the overhead required to process a single input character (at least I suppose so). 2016-11-03T06:14:40Z eSVG joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:14:55Z baroncharlus joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:15:11Z beach: I have not considered optimizing the input of a single character, but that may be needed at some point. The main idea is that I cache results of calling READ (even nested calls) based on the position in the editor buffer, so that most of the time, very few characters are actually read. 2016-11-03T06:15:37Z Rumbles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T06:15:59Z beach: Instead of reading characters and applying the reader algorithm, it can then return the cached result and skip large parts of the buffer. In fact, most of the buffer most of the time. 2016-11-03T06:16:19Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:26:44Z rjid: Instead of using this cache approach (I do not know nothing about the cache dimension) do you think would be effective use another approach based maybe on word lists by frequency? 2016-11-03T06:27:30Z beach: I don't see how such a thing would work. 2016-11-03T06:29:32Z rjid: The last question: READ is called for each single character? 2016-11-03T06:30:47Z beach: No. When the current position of the stream indicates that READ has been applied at that position before, then a cached result is returned instead, and the stream position is advanced beyond that result. This is what makes it fast. 2016-11-03T06:35:02Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:36:28Z StephanLahl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T06:37:35Z StephanLahl joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:38:56Z rjid: Yes, sorry for that question. I was searching for the implementation of the reader macro in the meanwhile. I remember I found some time ago an "algorithmic" description of the steps required by a reader but I'm not able to find it anymore. 2016-11-03T06:39:04Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T06:39:46Z Bike: clhs 2.2 2016-11-03T06:39:47Z specbot: Reader Algorithm: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 2016-11-03T06:39:50Z Bike: that? 2016-11-03T06:40:03Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:40:51Z rjid: Yes, it was the page I was searching for. 2016-11-03T06:48:08Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T06:52:39Z Kaisyu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T06:55:10Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T06:55:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T06:58:15Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T06:59:31Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:00:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:00:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:01:44Z beach left #lisp 2016-11-03T07:02:08Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-03T07:02:30Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:02:50Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T07:04:00Z wispy joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:04:02Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-03T07:04:43Z wispy: can someone help me? is there no native indentation in newlisp? 2016-11-03T07:06:16Z Bike: this channel isn't for newlisp, sorry. maybe there is a #newlisp channel. 2016-11-03T07:06:21Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:07:31Z wispy: Bike: ok. there isn't anyone there though 2016-11-03T07:09:26Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:09:44Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:11:54Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:12:09Z Dan1973 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T07:12:27Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:12:34Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:12:36Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T07:14:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:16:52Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T07:18:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:20:44Z JuanDaugherty: OK so I looked at the newlisp page. Which one of your bastards took the fun out of lisp? 2016-11-03T07:20:59Z JuanDaugherty: *you 2016-11-03T07:21:27Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T07:22:15Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:22:37Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:29:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T07:33:22Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:35:04Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2016-11-03T07:38:36Z younder: Looks like racket to me 2016-11-03T07:41:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T07:41:36Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:47:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T07:48:27Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:51:39Z loke: JuanDaugherty: Isn't the newlist that thing without a compiler, without first-class functions and without closures? 2016-11-03T07:52:01Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:52:07Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:54:01Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T07:54:25Z JuanDaugherty: loke idunno, heard of before i think but had forgotten. Juan tries to be kind. 2016-11-03T07:55:11Z JuanDaugherty: and as far as racket, they got standards which prolly is the main buzzkill, killjoy 2016-11-03T07:56:05Z JuanDaugherty: but pandora like, apparently, they froze the spec and left some fun in the box 2016-11-03T07:57:28Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T07:57:45Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T07:58:58Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T07:59:11Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:03:51Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:04:47Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:05:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-03T08:05:03Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-11-03T08:08:08Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T08:08:40Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T08:08:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T08:10:12Z jaziz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:10:55Z jaziz: Should I learn lisp or haskell? 2016-11-03T08:11:09Z loke: jaziz: Depends on what you want to do. 2016-11-03T08:11:17Z loke: But the correct answer is probably "both". 2016-11-03T08:11:27Z jaziz: loke, I just want to learn a "good" functional programming language 2016-11-03T08:12:06Z raydeejay: Standard ML 2016-11-03T08:12:08Z loke: jaziz: Then learn Haskell. Lisp isn't really a "functional" language. 2016-11-03T08:12:49Z loke: Lisp is more of a pragmatic language. Or "multi paradigm". You have functional aspects, but also plenty of imperative ones, as well as the most powerful object system you can imagine. 2016-11-03T08:15:25Z jdz: And let's not forget the condition system! 2016-11-03T08:15:26Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-03T08:16:12Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T08:16:50Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:16:52Z flip214: and a low-level assembler, if you wish 2016-11-03T08:17:46Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:17:59Z pipping: jasom: osicat gets symlinks right (and thus directories) 2016-11-03T08:18:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:18:27Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:20:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:20:39Z pipping: jasom: the behaviour of (directory "*"), (directory "*.*") and the likes is so vastly different from one CL implementation to another that it's almost impossible to build something portable on top of, although UIOP tries rather hard. OSICAT, in contrast, simply does an lstat through CFFI and works with that, which should be clean, fast, portable, reliable; I could probably find more words to praise what it 2016-11-03T08:20:41Z pipping: does. 2016-11-03T08:21:08Z flip214: "understandable" 2016-11-03T08:22:18Z loke: pipping: lstat doesn't work on Windows though. But then again, it should work reliably on every other platform, which is probably fine. 2016-11-03T08:22:34Z loke: My understanding is that people aren't really using Windows anymore. 2016-11-03T08:23:31Z flip214: loke: windows doesn't have real symlink. it has remount points, but these are different, and .lnk files, which are different, too 2016-11-03T08:23:45Z flip214: so on windows a "stat" should be good enough 2016-11-03T08:23:49Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-03T08:24:56Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:25:28Z scymtym: pipping: regarding that, when i looked at the DIRECTORY patch for sbcl, i realized that i first had to figure out what DIRECTORY /should/ do for the various combinations of :resolve-symlinks and "*", "*.*", etc. do you have a table of suggested behavior or something similar? 2016-11-03T08:27:28Z pipping: scymtym: unfortunately not; I'll ask Fare about that next time I see him 2016-11-03T08:28:11Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:28:36Z flip214: can uiop:run-program redirect OUTPUT or ERROR-OUTPUT to syslog, too? 2016-11-03T08:28:37Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:31:28Z scymtym: pipping: thanks 2016-11-03T08:31:55Z pipping: flip214: there's no native way to access the syslog from within CL without CFFI, right? I see there's cl-syslog and unfortunately with that it would not be compatible. If you had something that provided a stream interface, that should work on quite a few CLs then, I think 2016-11-03T08:34:00Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T08:34:35Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:36:27Z flip214: pipping: piping to "logger" might work, though not in multiple threads simultaneously? 2016-11-03T08:36:40Z flip214: can uiop:run-program pass environment variables? 2016-11-03T08:38:12Z pipping: flip214: It currently cannot pass environment variables, no; I recently looked into this topic only the other day and found that it couldn't be made to work across more than a couple of implementations 2016-11-03T08:38:44Z flip214: well, these would probably be good enough for me ;) 2016-11-03T08:39:05Z pipping: flip214: if you know that your data is sane or even constant then you can just call "env A=b C=d prog" though 2016-11-03T08:39:11Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:39:14Z flip214: not on windows ;) 2016-11-03T08:39:27Z pipping: oh, right, windows again ;) 2016-11-03T08:39:27Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T08:40:03Z pipping: flip214: here's the relevant bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1636903 2016-11-03T08:40:39Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:41:00Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:42:18Z pipping: the issue is this: (uiop:run-program "ls" :environment '(("PATH" . "something"))) would have the "PATH=something" assignment take effect during the name resolution of "ls" already on some platforms but not on others 2016-11-03T08:42:40Z Bike quit (Quit: late) 2016-11-03T08:44:04Z jackdaniel: jasom: for consistent across implementations filesystem interface 2016-11-03T08:46:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T08:46:24Z pipping: flip214: and that seems sufficiently dangerous and undesirable that we're calling it a showstopper for now 2016-11-03T08:50:25Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T08:52:04Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T08:52:06Z loke: flip214: Is there a "stat" on Windows? I thought they had a special function for that... GetFileAttributes? 2016-11-03T08:55:06Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:55:37Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T08:57:11Z pipping: https://github.com/osicat/osicat/blob/master/posix/windows.lisp indirectly suggests that it does 2016-11-03T08:58:05Z pipping: because that contains a blacklist of functions: those from https://github.com/osicat/osicat/blob/master/posix/packages.lisp that you can't have on windows. and stat isn't in there. 2016-11-03T08:58:20Z mvilleneuve left #lisp 2016-11-03T08:58:49Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-03T08:59:35Z loke: pipping: OK, I'll take your word for it. I never use Windows anyway. :-) 2016-11-03T09:00:57Z pipping: loke: Heh, well, why do you think I'm taking my info from a blacklist against a whitelist -- because I haven't found a sufficiently long pole that I'd touch Windows with ;) 2016-11-03T09:01:46Z loke: pipping: Hah. Yeah. As someone who lived through the dark ages (i.e. Windows dominance in the 90' 2016-11-03T09:01:59Z loke: s) I see very little attention paid to Windows these days. 2016-11-03T09:02:10Z loke: At least compared to back then. 2016-11-03T09:05:36Z Cymew: loke: I envy you, as I see that crap all around me. 2016-11-03T09:05:48Z Rambles joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:06:16Z loke: Cymew: Where? 2016-11-03T09:06:36Z loke: I see plenty of Windows crap around me, but I don't see much in the way of new software developed with a Windows focus. 2016-11-03T09:06:55Z Cymew: That's good news at least. 2016-11-03T09:06:56Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:07:31Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:08:16Z Cymew: I started a new gig and it took two days to get things working beacuse people insist on using active directory and windows as a SOA for logins. 2016-11-03T09:08:20Z Rumbles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T09:09:53Z loke: Getting AD to play with standard systems isn't impossible, and once one understands just in what ways AD is stuipd, it's quite easy. 2016-11-03T09:10:08Z loke: But yeah, reaching that point took me quite some time last I did it. 2016-11-03T09:10:51Z Cymew: loke: Annoying thins is, had it just been plain old LDAP and I had access, I had fixed it in 2 minutes. 2016-11-03T09:10:59Z Einwq joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:11:05Z Cymew: s/thins/thing/ 2016-11-03T09:12:38Z loke: Have you ever tried to link a Kerberos sub-realm on MIT Kerberos realm to a set of master realms on AD, and get single-signon via SSH working properly from Windows clients in the AD domains to the Unix ones? 2016-11-03T09:12:49Z loke: That one was... Fun :-) 2016-11-03T09:13:57Z Cymew looks disgusted 2016-11-03T09:14:14Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-03T09:14:33Z Cymew: I really hope we can loose that ad stuff one of these days, so we only have unix problems. 2016-11-03T09:16:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:21:00Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T09:22:42Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T09:23:20Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:32:58Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:42:47Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:43:11Z jaziz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T09:47:57Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-11-03T09:47:58Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-11-03T09:54:43Z wispy quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-11-03T09:55:54Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T09:57:47Z ramus joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:05:44Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T10:07:01Z igam joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:17:09Z eter joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:18:13Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T10:27:17Z phoe: loke: focus, correct 2016-11-03T10:27:29Z phoe: a lot has shifted to the Web which is platform-independent 2016-11-03T10:27:56Z phoe: so Windows isn't the World's Main Operating System as it used to be 10 years ago (eww, Windows Me) 2016-11-03T10:27:59Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:28:00Z loke: phoe: Which discussion are you replying to? :-) 2016-11-03T10:28:04Z loke: Ah, yes. 2016-11-03T10:28:11Z phoe: it's often just Another Platform nowadays. 2016-11-03T10:28:21Z loke: phoe: And often less well supported. 2016-11-03T10:28:23Z phoe: *Just Yet Another Platform 2016-11-03T10:28:25Z phoe: yep 2016-11-03T10:28:34Z White_Flame: it's the PC gaming platform, that's about its only absolute strength 2016-11-03T10:28:40Z phoe: ayup 2016-11-03T10:28:49Z phoe: and it's being undermined in that position, too. 2016-11-03T10:29:04Z White_Flame: and that's incredibly tenuous. THere's nothing that particularly windows-y about gamedev itself 2016-11-03T10:29:14Z phoe: ayup 2016-11-03T10:29:29Z loke: White_Flame: Well kinda not true. A lot of game development frameworks and tools are windows-only. 2016-11-03T10:29:54Z loke: White_Flame: That's actually the main reason you see smaller developers making their games Mac+Linux compatible, but the big budget stuff is still Windows only. 2016-11-03T10:30:22Z loke: They are kinda stuck in the 90's. 2016-11-03T10:31:29Z White_Flame: well, the main reason more people are making mac+linux compatible games is that they're using unity & unreal, and get that for free 2016-11-03T10:31:47Z loke: White_Flame: Exactly. 2016-11-03T10:32:04Z phoe: which is very good though 2016-11-03T10:32:15Z phoe: you get portability for free. 2016-11-03T10:32:20Z loke: But most major developers use heavily customised engines which are completely windows-centric. 2016-11-03T10:32:45Z Harag quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-03T10:32:49Z loke: Even if they're using Unreal, for example, it's hard to port, and even just upgrading is very difficult. 2016-11-03T10:33:31Z phoe: In these cases - I'm amazed at the job Wine is doing nowadays. 2016-11-03T10:33:35Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T10:33:36Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:33:39Z phoe: I remember it being barely usable and crashing in many, many cases. 2016-11-03T10:34:10Z phoe: Relatively new stuff won't run, like, for example, DX11 support is non-existent yet. 2016-11-03T10:34:30Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:34:31Z phoe: But it's a very good Windows replacement, at least for me. 2016-11-03T10:35:11Z White_Flame: the major hesitation I have about Wine is how to secure myself against badly behaving windows programs 2016-11-03T10:35:35Z White_Flame: windows in vmware is much more contained, especially if you just neuter the network to host-only 2016-11-03T10:36:05Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-03T10:36:29Z phoe: White_Flame: it's not hesitation about Wine 2016-11-03T10:36:29Z White_Flame: especially if you use wine for games, there's a lot of sniffing going on 2016-11-03T10:36:32Z phoe: it's hesitation about programs that are written like shit or spy on you 2016-11-03T10:36:47Z phoe: and that's a problem that is not solvable trivially. 2016-11-03T10:36:54Z White_Flame: I still remember finding a file in a realplayer directory years back with an entire directory tree of my filesystem 2016-11-03T10:37:12Z eter: hm. I have to use windows at my workplace, but at least I always have some bash scripts around in mingw 2016-11-03T10:37:39Z phoe: a program designed to nuke all files on your hard drive will do as much damage on Windows as it'll do on Wine 2016-11-03T10:37:39Z White_Flame: well, vmware is pretty good at containing that. Of course, running Wine as an alternate user also can contain some of that 2016-11-03T10:37:39Z phoe: or that too 2016-11-03T10:37:39Z phoe: in order not to allow it access to your userdir. 2016-11-03T10:37:40Z phoe: so it boils down to trust ultimately. 2016-11-03T10:37:47Z White_Flame: I haven't tried that, so I don' tknow what sort of weird permissions issues it might have in running the display seamlessly 2016-11-03T10:37:49Z PlasmaStar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T10:39:22Z White_Flame: in theory, without wine's default mount point to your homedir, it should only be able to see the drive_c tree. I think 2016-11-03T10:39:22Z phoe: ayup, correct 2016-11-03T10:40:56Z Dan1973 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T10:41:12Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:42:08Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:47:21Z raydeejay: speech recognition and dictation 2016-11-03T10:47:22Z raydeejay: linux 2016-11-03T10:47:25Z raydeejay: anything? :/ 2016-11-03T10:47:53Z jackdaniel: sphinx? 2016-11-03T10:47:54Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_recognition_software_for_Linux#Speech_recognition_concept 2016-11-03T10:50:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T10:51:04Z raydeejay: hm 2016-11-03T10:51:13Z raydeejay: why is that a paragraph on that page? :D 2016-11-03T10:53:12Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-03T10:56:21Z raydeejay: it's not apparently that difficult to make software that runs flawlessly under wine 2016-11-03T11:01:59Z pichar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-11-03T11:02:17Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:03:24Z woe joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:04:43Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:10:19Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T11:13:30Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:19:30Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T11:22:43Z trone joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:22:43Z trone left #lisp 2016-11-03T11:23:12Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:32:23Z Dan1973 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T11:34:45Z eter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T11:35:48Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-11-03T11:38:30Z knobo: Does anyone have an improved date/time parser that uses local-time? 2016-11-03T11:40:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:43:30Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T11:44:09Z flip214: knobo: I'm using net-telent-date, because I can specify the exact input format 2016-11-03T11:44:14Z flip214: but that's deprecated too 2016-11-03T11:45:23Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:46:11Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:46:33Z knobo: I think I'll try to do a transformation from "some-date-time-format" to "YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS+ZZ" and feed it to local-time. 2016-11-03T11:47:04Z knobo: Maybe not optimal though. 2016-11-03T11:47:49Z knobo: But it is easy for date format used in icalendar. 2016-11-03T11:50:20Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T11:51:00Z knobo: I have been using DTSTART:19980118T230000 2016-11-03T11:51:18Z knobo: sorry.. I have been using cl-date-time-parse 2016-11-03T11:53:43Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:53:48Z Jameser quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-11-03T11:53:54Z flip214: knobo: net-telent-date might be able to do that out-of-the-box 2016-11-03T11:58:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-11-03T11:59:59Z raydeejay: last time, I used a regex and crafted a local-time by hand 2016-11-03T12:00:18Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:01:43Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:04:36Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T12:07:45Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:08:15Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-11-03T12:08:15Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:14:47Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-03T12:17:13Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:18:42Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:19:27Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T12:22:59Z jurov: *sigh* every time i want to use something, I very quickly run into bugs. already reported two: https://github.com/commonqt/commonqt/issues 2016-11-03T12:23:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:26:01Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:26:47Z igam: jurov: if you want to have some fun, write a CL fuzzier, and apply it on the libraries in quicklisp! Perhaps better write an automatic bug submission function first… 2016-11-03T12:27:30Z jurov: why? my brain is good enough fuzzer :( 2016-11-03T12:29:22Z igam: Good, but not systematic :-) 2016-11-03T12:29:33Z igam: And humans are bad at generating random numbers. 2016-11-03T12:30:49Z jurov: also the reports will end up gc'd, like linux kernel bugzilla 2016-11-03T12:31:24Z igam: Depends on the developer. I'd be interested in them. 2016-11-03T12:31:54Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T12:32:41Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T12:32:43Z jurov: Good. *evil grin* Do you have some stuff in quicklisp I can look into? 2016-11-03T12:32:57Z igam: com.informatimago 2016-11-03T12:33:15Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:34:35Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-11-03T12:34:56Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T12:35:02Z jurov: i see 2016-11-03T12:36:49Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:39:09Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T12:40:57Z paul0 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T12:41:28Z paul0: how can I find the functions I can use with some variable? 2016-11-03T12:41:52Z igam: paul0: reading the source code. 2016-11-03T12:42:12Z paul0: igam, there are a lot of source code, and some required libraries 2016-11-03T12:42:31Z paul0: I wanted something like ruby ".methods", so I can easily know what I can do with some object 2016-11-03T12:42:43Z igam: paul0: given that you can always pass any lisp object to any function and get some result or some condition signaled, your question is not restrictive at all: you can use all the functions with the object bound to any variable. 2016-11-03T12:43:14Z igam: paul0: if you're looking only for generic functions, then we can filter some of them, indeed. 2016-11-03T12:43:58Z paul0: igam, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24924187/list-object-methods-in-common-lisp-clos 2016-11-03T12:44:34Z paul0: some time ago, someone told me about a quicklisp package that creates a web server with documentation for my local packages 2016-11-03T12:44:50Z Xach: paul0: manifest is one project like that 2016-11-03T12:45:11Z Xach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COEgRaf6acU 2016-11-03T12:47:07Z paul0: Xach, great! 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-03T15:54:13Z antoszka joined #lisp 2016-11-03T15:54:51Z antoszka: Guys, when using drakma:http-request to do some Google Searching (using the public API) I get random null-bytes in the middle of the response: 2016-11-03T15:54:54Z antoszka: http://wklej.org/id/2936260/ 2016-11-03T15:55:00Z antoszka: Is that a known issue? 2016-11-03T15:55:07Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-03T15:58:34Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-11-03T15:58:36Z antoszka: (that happends regardless of whether I request the XML or the JSON format response) 2016-11-03T15:59:25Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-11-03T15:59:53Z antoszka: It also seems to break the LENGTH detection, as the zeros fill up space and the output is truncated (possibly in the middle of an UTF-8 multibyte sequence). 2016-11-03T16:03:42Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:03:55Z H4ns: antoszka: that looks completely wrong. 2016-11-03T16:04:20Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:04:43Z antoszka: Yeah. 2016-11-03T16:04:48Z rjid left #lisp 2016-11-03T16:04:50Z jdz: It looks like a half-filled buffer from read syscall without checking the return value. 2016-11-03T16:05:02Z H4ns: antoszka: what implementation is that? 2016-11-03T16:05:03Z jdz: s/read/recv 2016-11-03T16:05:23Z antoszka: H4ns: sbcl 1.1.7 2016-11-03T16:05:29Z antoszka: x64 2016-11-03T16:05:53Z antoszka: I can see if bumping up sbcl is possible there. 2016-11-03T16:05:55Z H4ns: antoszka: do you have a minimal test case? 2016-11-03T16:06:38Z downloadico quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.2)) 2016-11-03T16:06:47Z antoszka: H4ns: Would have to give out the Google API keys, it's hard to reproduce without that. 2016-11-03T16:07:03Z antoszka: But I'll try to get a newer SBCL on that machine first. 2016-11-03T16:09:01Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:11:09Z e quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T16:11:52Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-11-03T16:13:45Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:14:24Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:14:26Z e joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:16:37Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:23:05Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T16:23:19Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:25:25Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T16:27:08Z raydeejay: antoszka: s/the key/INSERT-THE-KEY-HERE/ and problem solved 2016-11-03T16:27:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:28:11Z raydeejay should get keyus for his bot 2016-11-03T16:28:40Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:28:54Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:33:21Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:33:30Z eivarv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:34:04Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:35:10Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T16:35:29Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:37:26Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:40:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:43:19Z beach joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:43:28Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-11-03T16:44:44Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:45:33Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T16:46:38Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-11-03T16:46:46Z jdz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:48:19Z rpg_ is now known as rpg 2016-11-03T16:49:56Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-03T16:58:46Z fe[nl]ix: hello beach 2016-11-03T16:59:08Z paul0 left #lisp 2016-11-03T16:59:56Z raydeejay: o/ 2016-11-03T17:01:25Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Are you planning to go to ELS2017? 2016-11-03T17:01:41Z ryan_vw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T17:02:04Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T17:04:02Z fe[nl]ix: beach: yes 2016-11-03T17:04:20Z beach: Great! 2016-11-03T17:04:20Z fe[nl]ix: I think I'll even have something to present 2016-11-03T17:04:54Z beach: Even better. 2016-11-03T17:06:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:06:50Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-11-03T17:06:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:06:57Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:07:27Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-11-03T17:07:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T17:09:16Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-03T17:09:20Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:10:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:10:38Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T17:11:41Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:12:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:14:57Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-11-03T17:16:15Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:17:17Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:17:26Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:17:36Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:19:29Z beach: I made some progress on the incremental Common Lisp parser for Second Climacs. I am able to parse and cache all top-level forms in a buffer, so far starting with an empty cache. 2016-11-03T17:20:36Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-03T17:21:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:21:37Z beach: Next, I will generate modifications to a random line in the buffer, invalidate the appropriate parts of the cache, and parse again with remaining valid parse results in the cache. 2016-11-03T17:25:22Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:25:26Z eter joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:26:04Z Grue` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T17:30:02Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:31:00Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T17:31:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T17:33:47Z antoszka: raydeejay: yeah, still trying to upgrade the whole bundle, there are dragons from 2012 :) 2016-11-03T17:34:01Z antoszka: currently fixing some broken hu.dwim deps 2016-11-03T17:36:25Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T17:36:26Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-03T17:37:31Z rjid quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-11-03T17:39:02Z delan joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:43:13Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:43:15Z foom joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:43:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:46:47Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-03T17:47:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T17:50:25Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T17:50:35Z Bike: asdf doesn't know how to find one, and only one, system in this tree. friggin a. where does the system-index.txt in quicklisp local-projects come from? 2016-11-03T17:51:31Z mood: Bike: I believe it's generated using (ql:register-local-projects) 2016-11-03T17:51:48Z Bike: that did it! thanks 2016-11-03T17:54:55Z ismed quit (Quit: ismed) 2016-11-03T17:55:51Z delan left #lisp 2016-11-03T18:00:12Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:00:55Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:01:41Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:03:27Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:05:07Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:14:39Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:14:46Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T18:15:24Z beaky quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-11-03T18:15:37Z beaky1 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:16:09Z beaky1 is now known as beaky 2016-11-03T18:16:19Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:16:38Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:17:03Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-11-03T18:18:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:19:55Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:20:17Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:20:17Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:22:03Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T18:22:06Z sjl: what are some good Set data structure implementations these days? 2016-11-03T18:22:21Z sjl: cl-hamt seems nice except for a lack of a set-equal predicate... 2016-11-03T18:26:52Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T18:29:21Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:30:54Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:31:03Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T18:31:57Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:36:53Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:37:38Z beach: sjl: There is no good universal set data structure. It all depends on the operations you intend to use on your sets. 2016-11-03T18:38:20Z beach: For example, if your objects do not have an order and do not obey a hash function, the best you can do is a linear search. 2016-11-03T18:38:33Z knobo: dlowe: thanx 2016-11-03T18:38:39Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T18:39:13Z rocx joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:39:16Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:41:12Z sjl: s/good/maintained/ 2016-11-03T18:41:27Z sjl: as in, what are my options these days 2016-11-03T18:41:28Z beach: sjl: Use a Common Lisp list then. 2016-11-03T18:41:30Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:41:47Z beach: Most implementations maintain FIND, PUSH etc, very well. 2016-11-03T18:41:52Z sjl: my particular case is sets of integers 2016-11-03T18:42:00Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-03T18:42:12Z beach: You didn't say that, hence my initial answer. 2016-11-03T18:42:19Z sjl: okay, my question is 2016-11-03T18:42:29Z sjl: what implementations of sets are available and maintained these days 2016-11-03T18:42:34Z sjl: I know of cl-hamt 2016-11-03T18:42:44Z beach: *sigh* 2016-11-03T18:42:49Z sjl: and obviously the builtin lists-of-sets 2016-11-03T18:42:55Z sjl: are there any others? 2016-11-03T18:43:03Z beach: And Common Lisp hash tables. They are usually very good. 2016-11-03T18:43:30Z sjl: sure, if I don't need union/etc those could be an option 2016-11-03T18:43:42Z beach: But you didn't say what operations you wanted. 2016-11-03T18:43:55Z sjl: good lord 2016-11-03T18:44:05Z eter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:44:06Z sjl: I can describe in excruciating detail my particular use case today if you want 2016-11-03T18:44:17Z beach: I give up. 2016-11-03T18:44:19Z beach: Sorry. 2016-11-03T18:44:19Z sjl: but I'm really just asking for "hey maybe look at these two projects I know about" 2016-11-03T18:44:39Z sjl: because googling for "common lisp set" is useless 2016-11-03T18:44:52Z beach: And for good reasons. 2016-11-03T18:44:53Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:44:57Z beach: But I am done now. 2016-11-03T18:46:33Z sjl: oh yeah, fset has sets too of course 2016-11-03T18:49:14Z sjl: I bet cl-containers has something but damned if I can find it in the layers of abstraction 2016-11-03T18:49:15Z baroncharlus quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-03T18:49:24Z ismed joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:50:18Z megalography joined #lisp 2016-11-03T18:53:16Z sjl: lisp-interface-library has them too but that library is too advanced for my stupid brain 2016-11-03T18:56:13Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T18:57:29Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T18:58:13Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T18:59:24Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T19:00:54Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-11-03T19:01:24Z knobo: chronicity is not able to parse icalendar dates out of the box either. 2016-11-03T19:01:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:02:05Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:03:08Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:06:19Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T19:06:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:07:25Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:08:51Z phoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T19:08:53Z megalography joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:09:29Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:09:48Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:11:14Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:16:23Z _death: I like fset 2016-11-03T19:19:06Z rpg_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T19:19:11Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:19:29Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:20:28Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T19:21:00Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:21:22Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T19:25:04Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:26:01Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:29:44Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:29:44Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T19:29:51Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:31:06Z knobo: the local-time documentation says "ISO 8601 timestring formatted output and parsing 2016-11-03T19:32:15Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:32:26Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:32:30Z knobo: But according to wikipedia 20161103T183514Z is a valid date. which local-time can not parse. 2016-11-03T19:33:31Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:35:33Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:36:47Z knobo: it is called "basic format" 2016-11-03T19:37:00Z dlowe: it's more of an rfc 3339 parser 2016-11-03T19:37:33Z rpg_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T19:37:35Z rocx: dear diary, today i learned that ERC can parse RFC numbers and turn them into hyperlinks. 2016-11-03T19:39:11Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T19:39:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:41:50Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:42:14Z knobo: Actually, the local-time manual does not claim to follow any standard/spesification it parses. 2016-11-03T19:42:36Z knobo: cliki claims iso 8601 2016-11-03T19:43:02Z knobo: and the common-lisp.net project page. 2016-11-03T19:43:04Z dlowe: the error itself says rfc 3339 2016-11-03T19:43:16Z dlowe: which is a subset of iso 8601 2016-11-03T19:43:20Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:43:37Z dlowe: you will also not find satisfaction if you try to specify your date using iso 8601 weeks 2016-11-03T19:44:41Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:46:15Z malice joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:46:30Z malice: Hi! Is there some good way to scrap web in CL while respecting robots.txt? 2016-11-03T19:46:36Z malice: And by the good way I mean also an easy way ;) 2016-11-03T19:48:08Z dlowe: no, not really. 2016-11-03T19:48:20Z rocx: why respect robots.txt? 2016-11-03T19:48:20Z rocx: no one respects that. 2016-11-03T19:49:15Z malice: I'm a nice guy, you know. 2016-11-03T19:49:41Z rocx: what if a location you're scraping lacks robots.txt? fair game or off limits? 2016-11-03T19:50:01Z malice: dlowe: so I'm left with scrapy? 2016-11-03T19:50:12Z mood: "define malice: A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite." 2016-11-03T19:50:28Z dlowe: malice: or writing your own 2016-11-03T19:51:01Z malice: rocx: I guess I'd go fair, I'm not in a hurry and don't need millions of records 2016-11-03T19:51:05Z rocx: mood: maybe they're M. Alice. 2016-11-03T19:51:19Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T19:51:21Z dlowe: the pieces are there to put together. You use drakma for http, and closure-html or something for parsing. 2016-11-03T19:51:36Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:52:35Z malice: dlowe: Yeah, past hour or so I was playing with cl-html5-parser and xpath as well as css-selectors and chtml-parse 2016-11-03T19:54:40Z raydeejay: I love robots.txt 2016-11-03T19:54:52Z raydeejay: particularly when the frelling file has prevented archive.org from doing its job 2016-11-03T19:55:12Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:55:25Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:56:12Z flak joined #lisp 2016-11-03T19:56:25Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T19:59:20Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T20:02:40Z k4rtik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T20:04:04Z malice: Thanks guys. 2016-11-03T20:04:14Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T20:04:34Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T20:04:56Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T20:04:56Z rocx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T20:05:30Z pierpa: but RFC 3339 contains in Appendix A. A Complete ABNF of ISO 8601. Maybe they refers to that Appendix. 2016-11-03T20:05:50Z aeth: raydeejay: Wait until some troll buys every website of historical significance and then block everything in the robots.txt so the archives don't work 2016-11-03T20:05:57Z aeth: s/then block/then blocks/ 2016-11-03T20:06:22Z aeth: I'm glad most websites don't know about this, actually. Sometimes material is taken down that they probably *would* block if they knew about it. 2016-11-03T20:06:55Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T20:07:21Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2016-11-03T20:08:33Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:08:46Z GoZoner quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-11-03T20:09:23Z megalography joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:11:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:11:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-11-03T20:11:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:20:56Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:27:27Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T20:28:01Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:28:14Z rocx joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:29:06Z phoe_: blah 2016-11-03T20:29:46Z raydeejay agrees with phoe_ 2016-11-03T20:30:00Z raydeejay: I'd say even more: blah 2016-11-03T20:31:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T20:31:35Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:32:17Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-03T20:32:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:32:30Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:34:38Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T20:42:10Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:50:08Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:51:03Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:52:18Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T20:52:19Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-11-03T20:56:40Z ebrasca: phoe_: hi 2016-11-03T20:58:35Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T20:59:27Z phoe_: ebrasca: hey 2016-11-03T20:59:36Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:04:28Z ebrasca: phoe_: I have read others l system and there is l systems for GPU. 2016-11-03T21:04:32Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:04:39Z phoe_: ebrasca: good. 2016-11-03T21:05:20Z ebrasca: phoe_: can lisp have same code for cpu and gpu? 2016-11-03T21:05:28Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-03T21:05:47Z phoe_: ebrasca: I think it's doable 2016-11-03T21:06:07Z phoe_: You just need to tell something like CL-CUDA to compile it for the GPU instead 2016-11-03T21:06:54Z ebrasca: phoe_: but cuda is non free. 2016-11-03T21:06:57Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:07:48Z ebrasca: phoe_: there is varjo and cepl project 2016-11-03T21:08:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:11:44Z flak quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-11-03T21:11:44Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:14:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:14:46Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T21:16:03Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:16:54Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:23:23Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:24:33Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T21:25:58Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:26:33Z nullset68 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:26:34Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:29:22Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:29:28Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:30:52Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:31:13Z Bike: CPUs and GP Us are so differently architectured that you don't usually use the same kind of code for both 2016-11-03T21:32:19Z nullset68 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-11-03T21:33:16Z Rambles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T21:33:39Z ebrasca: Bike: why you can't do functional style on both? 2016-11-03T21:34:44Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:35:19Z phoe_: ebrasca: you can - in pure theory. 2016-11-03T21:35:29Z phoe_: and, to some extent, in practice. 2016-11-03T21:35:39Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:35:58Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:36:04Z Bike: there are a lot of assumptions in that question. that lisp code is functional, and that lisp compilers are oriented towards optimizing functional code. that i said you couldn't, rather than referring to other matters. 2016-11-03T21:38:20Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:38:27Z Bike: but like, http://chessgpgpu.blogspot.com/2013/01/branching-on-gpu.html sorta stuff is a factor 2016-11-03T21:38:47Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-03T21:39:04Z Bike: since you're presumably running stuff on the GPU for speed purposes, your code's gotta go fast. and that entails different optimization considerations than on a cpu. 2016-11-03T21:39:14Z Bike: you could hope for a sufficiently smart compiler but like, ha ha. 2016-11-03T21:41:15Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T21:42:20Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:42:54Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:42:55Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-11-03T21:43:05Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:43:53Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-03T21:47:25Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-03T21:48:22Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:50:34Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:52:20Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:53:12Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:56:37Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-03T21:57:18Z impulse- joined #lisp 2016-11-03T21:57:25Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-03T21:57:44Z impulse- is now known as impulse 2016-11-03T21:58:04Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2016-11-03T21:58:13Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I believe the book talks about much more manual ways to deal with that. It all changed once QL happened. 2016-11-04T03:54:36Z bigfondue: sort of like pip for python then 2016-11-04T03:56:17Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T03:56:21Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:00:13Z loke reads emacs-devel. The drama. The drama! 2016-11-04T04:00:18Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-04T04:00:27Z loke: Sorry, that was meant for #emacs 2016-11-04T04:00:58Z ewiltshi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T04:03:48Z fouric: loke: link anyway? 2016-11-04T04:03:56Z fouric enjoys drama he isn't involved in :D 2016-11-04T04:04:06Z loke: fouric: Hang on 2016-11-04T04:04:31Z loke: This is the one: 2016-11-04T04:04:34Z loke: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-11/msg00001.html 2016-11-04T04:04:54Z loke: It takes some 20 or so messages before the drama starts. Let me see if I can find the starting point. 2016-11-04T04:05:07Z loke: Ah, here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-11/msg00005.html 2016-11-04T04:05:12Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T04:06:05Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-11-04T04:07:22Z fouric: loke: :D 2016-11-04T04:08:08Z Reinisch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-04T04:09:48Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:12:16Z wheelsuc` left #lisp 2016-11-04T04:13:04Z nullniverse is now known as threshold 2016-11-04T04:16:55Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:31:34Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T04:33:19Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:34:15Z threshold is now known as nullniverse 2016-11-04T04:35:12Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:36:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:36:10Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T04:42:31Z andrei_chiffa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T04:45:43Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-11-04T04:48:28Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-04T04:49:31Z ak5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T04:49:46Z samebchase quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T04:50:28Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:51:12Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-04T04:51:14Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-11-04T04:54:05Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T05:02:03Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:05:37Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T05:07:28Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:08:18Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:08:52Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-04T05:09:10Z Reinisch quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-04T05:09:34Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T05:11:03Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:14:16Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:21:41Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-04T05:21:53Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T05:23:37Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:23:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-04T05:26:55Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-11-04T05:26:58Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:30:09Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-11-04T05:33:59Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:34:05Z H4ns: loke: is it not depressing to see our tooling requires bright minds spend their time on things like this? :/ 2016-11-04T05:36:36Z ismed quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T05:47:08Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:47:41Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:53:21Z loke: H4ns: It's very depressing. 2016-11-04T05:54:50Z ismed joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:57:14Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-04T05:58:08Z loke: I really have a hard time understanding where Eli comes from in this case. I mean, he has strange opinions sometimes but in this case he's just wrong. 2016-11-04T05:59:09Z andrei_chiffa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:07:28Z ryanbw` joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:08:23Z ryanbw` quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-04T06:09:14Z ryanbw quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:09:39Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:14:30Z eSVG quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T06:18:22Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:18:29Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:19:05Z fouric: .oO(concurrency is hard) 2016-11-04T06:19:25Z fouric: maybe we should throw everything away and rebuild everything with concurrency and security in mind? 2016-11-04T06:19:47Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:19:47Z fouric: (neither of which were very prominent in the '60s-'80s according to my knowledge of hacker history) 2016-11-04T06:20:16Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:23:06Z coyo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:25:09Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:25:15Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:32:06Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:34:24Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:36:11Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:38:58Z eivarv quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-04T06:42:57Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:43:10Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:47:37Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:48:50Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-11-04T06:49:09Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T06:50:31Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T06:50:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:50:51Z andrei_chiffa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:55:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T06:55:09Z H4ns: "we should", i love that expression 2016-11-04T06:55:53Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T06:56:42Z loke: No one is going to stop anyone from doing that. 2016-11-04T06:57:19Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T06:57:44Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:58:01Z flip214: but no one is really going to make any progress with that (alone), either 2016-11-04T06:58:09Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T06:58:40Z jackdaniel: well, some people work on more secure and painless solutions, but it's rather a matter of evolution (not revolution) 2016-11-04T06:59:03Z jackdaniel: for instance lparallel for concurrency 2016-11-04T06:59:24Z H4ns: common lisp is not a secure substrate to build on, i'd argue 2016-11-04T06:59:26Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-11-04T06:59:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:00:07Z jackdaniel: agreed, but identifying what's insecure and thinking hard how to solve it by morphing CL is arguably more sane than writing new specification from scratch 2016-11-04T07:01:32Z jackdaniel: (for instance lparallel works on top of bordeaux-threads, which works on top of non-CL functionality – extensions – sorry for sticking to the same example twice :) 2016-11-04T07:01:57Z H4ns: i disagree. i see all contemporary software development as research. at some point, there will need to be a clean slate approach to software engineering, and it will need to be driven by the users, not by cult members like ourselves. 2016-11-04T07:02:36Z jackdaniel: maybe, I'll think about that 2016-11-04T07:03:58Z H4ns: i would like to point out that common lisp is the result of users expressing their needs. if it were on the lisp programmers back in the day, common lisp would never have been created. 2016-11-04T07:04:15Z H4ns: users with deep pockets :) 2016-11-04T07:06:52Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:07:12Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:08:38Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:08:55Z H4ns: the tragedy is that back then, when lisp was large, it took the users too long to get the lisp folks to get their act together. when they were finally sitting at the table and writing the spec, the unix folks with their hacked-together wares already convinced the users that worse would be good enough. 2016-11-04T07:09:37Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:09:50Z H4ns: now they, the users, are learning what "worse" means, the hard way. 2016-11-04T07:09:56Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:09:56Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-11-04T07:10:04Z jackdaniel: do you have any opinions on eulisp? 2016-11-04T07:10:24Z jackdaniel: (or maybe I should move to #lispcafe with that question?) 2016-11-04T07:10:52Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:10:57Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:11:16Z H4ns: i have no opinion. 2016-11-04T07:11:18Z beach: H4ns: I don't see any evidence that people realize what the problem is. 2016-11-04T07:11:29Z H4ns: beach: they actually start learning. 2016-11-04T07:11:45Z beach: That's good if so. 2016-11-04T07:11:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:11:55Z H4ns: beach: the recent internet outage was very educative. it'll take more time and more catastrophes. 2016-11-04T07:12:46Z flip214: and you think that these will come often enough so that people learn from them? 2016-11-04T07:13:28Z H4ns: i certainly am convinced that progress can be made. we've made a lot of progress over the many generations of humankind, and i have no doubts that things are about to end. 2016-11-04T07:13:32Z flip214: I'm under the impression that the "oldtimers" with >15 years experience are more or less shoo-ed away, "ah bah, what you know is outdated. look, a new shiny web framework!" 2016-11-04T07:14:10Z H4ns: it is just that people tend to think that because we have faster computers now, we have made a lot of progress. that's not true, software engineering has not made a lot of progress in the last few decades. 2016-11-04T07:14:20Z H4ns: which is unsurprising, given the immaturity of the field. 2016-11-04T07:15:11Z H4ns: (i meant i have no doubts that progress will continue) 2016-11-04T07:15:21Z H4ns: anyway, breakfast time. progress for this day :) 2016-11-04T07:16:24Z ASau: I disagree on the latter. 2016-11-04T07:16:46Z ASau: Certainly, we have made a lot of progress within last five(!) years. 2016-11-04T07:16:50Z axion: If anything, faster computers has led to degenerative programming practices due to human perception of result performance 2016-11-04T07:17:47Z ASau: You notice it when you move between research project, new industrial project, and old industrial project where developers are stuck with technologies and approaches of 80-ies and 90-ies. 2016-11-04T07:18:48Z ASau: Faster computers also led to using better programming languages instead of those who sacrifice clarity and security in favour of compiler and code speed. 2016-11-04T07:20:02Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:21:40Z ASau: Examples: Java instead of C or C++, Erlang instead of C, Python and R instead of C and Fortran-77. 2016-11-04T07:22:23Z loke: I bject to any statement involving the suggestion that Python is a "good language". 2016-11-04T07:22:35Z axion: I feel the same way about Java 2016-11-04T07:22:44Z ASau: Python is certainly better than C. 2016-11-04T07:22:46Z loke: Besides, Python is so dog-slow that any actual computation in numpy is performed by native code. 2016-11-04T07:22:49Z Dan1973: Also Java beeing a good language 2016-11-04T07:23:01Z ASau: Java _is_ a very good language, actually. 2016-11-04T07:23:09Z Dan1973: C++ is still much much better than java imo 2016-11-04T07:23:53Z ASau: C++ is exactly from the group of those who sacrifice clarity and security in favour of code speed. 2016-11-04T07:24:10Z flip214: hooray, a language war! 2016-11-04T07:24:17Z Dan1973: perhapes, but java is anything but clearer than C++ 2016-11-04T07:24:30Z ASau: It certainly is. 2016-11-04T07:24:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T07:24:33Z ecraven: just compile CL to either Java or C++! 2016-11-04T07:24:50Z ASau: ? 2016-11-04T07:24:53Z ASau: Why? 2016-11-04T07:25:15Z ASau: You can compile it to JVM object code. 2016-11-04T07:25:16Z Dan1973: my perception is , use the tool you need for a aprticular situation 2016-11-04T07:25:24Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:25:25Z Dan1973: C++ has its place 2016-11-04T07:25:43Z Dan1973: and Java is known by hordes opf programmerts, so you can fire ppl at will 2016-11-04T07:26:05Z ASau: That's what we call "industry". 2016-11-04T07:26:31Z ecraven: Dan1973: are all java programmers equal? to me, it always seems strange to say "it's so easy to find programmers for language X", if from experience many of them just aren't good programmers (yet) 2016-11-04T07:26:32Z ASau: If you can't replace worker, that's not industry. 2016-11-04T07:26:43Z Dan1973: no they are not equal, ofc 2016-11-04T07:26:49Z Dan1973: but there are hordes of them 2016-11-04T07:26:54Z Dan1973: and in that pool 2016-11-04T07:27:03Z Dan1973: you can find more ppl above a certain skill 2016-11-04T07:27:34Z Dan1973: in my city I know 1 or 2 good C programmers 2016-11-04T07:27:38Z ASau: You can find people who strip JRE down to work within 32K, but they are exactly those whom you can't fire at will. :D 2016-11-04T07:28:20Z Dan1973: its sure, but in most cases you wont hire those , because you dont need them 2016-11-04T07:28:36Z Dan1973: industry needs a lot of average skilled, easily replaceable programmers 2016-11-04T07:29:00Z ASau: "Average skilled" is tricky formulation. 2016-11-04T07:29:09Z ASau: Industry needs skills it needs. 2016-11-04T07:29:25Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:29:26Z Dan1973: yes, you are right 2016-11-04T07:29:34Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:29:40Z Dan1973: I said it very badly 2016-11-04T07:30:17Z ASau: If programming language doesn't require memorizing numeric addresses of variables, you don't need that skill. 2016-11-04T07:30:49Z ASau: If programming language doesn't require manually deallocating memory, you don't need related skills either. 2016-11-04T07:30:55Z Dan1973: true, but why do what many young ppl do this day and lock yourself into one language ? 2016-11-04T07:31:04Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:31:08Z Dan1973: I tend to agree with grahham on the fact 2016-11-04T07:31:23Z ASau: They re not locked into one language, actually. 2016-11-04T07:31:24Z Dan1973: that you need to speak more than one language from several different paradigms 2016-11-04T07:31:33Z ASau: I don't understand where you see that. 2016-11-04T07:31:38Z Dan1973: to be in the top percentage 2016-11-04T07:32:10Z axion: I have been locked into Common Lisp for 10 years, but only after many successful leaps. 2016-11-04T07:32:12Z ASau: In many cases you don't need non-imperative paradigm. 2016-11-04T07:32:28Z Dan1973: but its good to know it 2016-11-04T07:32:53Z ASau: As for FP, Java incorporates a lot of it already to the point that this knowledge is required. 2016-11-04T07:33:02Z Dan1973: it does , ofc 2016-11-04T07:33:18Z Dan1973: most java programmers I seen cant seem to be able to use that part 2016-11-04T07:33:21Z ASau: Which paradigm are you talking about then? 2016-11-04T07:33:26Z ASau: Logical? 2016-11-04T07:33:40Z Dan1973: functional imperative and plain procedural 2016-11-04T07:33:46Z Dan1973: my point is 2016-11-04T07:34:03Z ASau: Both are required to work with Java in any sensible way. 2016-11-04T07:34:10Z Dan1973: despite Java having functional eleemnts in latest incarantion 2016-11-04T07:34:22Z Dan1973: ppl arround me seem to have a lot of trouble wrapping their heads 2016-11-04T07:34:29Z Dan1973: arrond it 2016-11-04T07:35:12Z ASau: There exist arguments that human mind is evolutionary tuned for "imperative" paradigm. 2016-11-04T07:35:38Z Dan1973: as in drawinian evolution ? 2016-11-04T07:35:44Z ASau: Yes. 2016-11-04T07:35:44Z Dan1973: I highly doubt that 2016-11-04T07:35:45Z Bike: we should just go back to training horses to do shit. fuck, man 2016-11-04T07:35:53Z ASau: If that's true, no wonder that they have troubles to think the other way around. 2016-11-04T07:36:19Z Dan1973: or they missed proper exposure 2016-11-04T07:36:34Z rjid: We should just go back to structured programming. :) 2016-11-04T07:36:39Z ASau: But then the same goes about scientific approach. 2016-11-04T07:36:40Z Dan1973: which is , imo, the simplest argument 2016-11-04T07:36:57Z ASau: Because confirmation bias is also wired into the brain. 2016-11-04T07:37:09Z Dan1973: true 2016-11-04T07:37:48Z Dan1973: yet its very far fetched to postulate an darwinian evolutinary barrier againsty functional languages 2016-11-04T07:38:29Z Dan1973: Good exposure to multiple paradigms is essential imo for a good programmer 2016-11-04T07:38:42Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:38:48Z Dan1973: no matter that you will end using imperative only 2016-11-04T07:38:53Z ASau: My original argument is that this is not necessary at all. 2016-11-04T07:39:01Z Bike: nah, back before the toba catastrophe there was this kind of bird that only preyed on haskell programmers 2016-11-04T07:39:12Z ASau: You don't have a lot of problems to solve within non-imperative paradigm. 2016-11-04T07:39:18Z Dan1973: it is not necessary 2016-11-04T07:39:32Z Dan1973: but then again, nothing but assembly is necessary to program a computer 2016-11-04T07:39:34Z Dan1973: :P 2016-11-04T07:39:39Z ASau: Imperative, besides, includes a lot of stuff from what was formerly strictly functional. 2016-11-04T07:40:07Z Bike: they called them terror birds, but that was less because of the haskell and more because they were like five feet tall 2016-11-04T07:40:19Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:40:22Z Dan1973: yes it does. Introduced in the language by top ppl which where exposed t multiple paradigms 2016-11-04T07:40:30Z Dan1973: bot by the typical blub user 2016-11-04T07:40:35Z Dan1973: not 2016-11-04T07:40:52Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:40:56Z Dan1973: There is inovation at work 2016-11-04T07:40:58Z Bike: in order to fly like that they had to be programmed in snobol, because otherwise the bones would weigh too much. 2016-11-04T07:41:06Z Dan1973: and typical programmers are not capable of it imo 2016-11-04T07:41:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:42:33Z andrei_chiffa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:42:45Z ASau: You always have distribution of skills reminding something Maxwellian. 2016-11-04T07:43:05Z ASau: It doesn't seem to depend on the domain. 2016-11-04T07:43:39Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:44:04Z Dan1973: gaussian . in every domain you can think of 2016-11-04T07:44:22Z Dan1973: the middle of the beell is not bale to innovate 2016-11-04T07:46:15Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:46:17Z ASau can't recall any domain where you would have negative skills... 2016-11-04T07:46:35Z Dan1973: in the end, all those are tools. Im grateful they exist and people att the top of their game continue to innovate them 2016-11-04T07:47:19Z Dan1973: you dont need to have negative skills to be enable to innovate :P just be average 2016-11-04T07:47:31Z Dan1973: and you are all set 2016-11-04T07:47:37Z Dan1973: :P 2016-11-04T07:48:03Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T07:48:24Z ASau: You don't need to innovate on any occasion. 2016-11-04T07:49:36Z ASau: In software industry we call it NIH syndrome usually. :) 2016-11-04T07:49:38Z ASau: Anyway, I have nearly reached my station. Thus, I have to part. 2016-11-04T07:49:38Z ASau: Have a nice day! 2016-11-04T07:49:46Z Dan1973: you toomate 2016-11-04T07:50:10Z rjid: Yes, sometimes to be lazy is better than to be eager for. 2016-11-04T07:50:27Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:51:44Z flip214: ASau: "negative skills" mean that coworkers have to do _more_ to keep the same "output". 2016-11-04T07:51:45Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T07:52:10Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:52:16Z flip214: and I know a few of these... 2016-11-04T07:56:17Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:56:28Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T07:58:17Z rjid quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-11-04T08:00:46Z ewiltshi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T08:01:05Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T08:05:07Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T08:05:42Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T08:05:55Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T08:05:56Z macdavid314 is now known as macdavid313 2016-11-04T08:08:55Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-04T08:13:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-11-04T08:18:25Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-11-04T08:18:28Z Bike quit (Quit: no such) 2016-11-04T08:20:10Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-11-04T08:24:45Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-04T08:25:44Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T08:27:13Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T08:27:15Z Dan1973: it's all good. 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2016-11-04T11:03:56Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T11:08:37Z andrei_chiffa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T11:09:55Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-04T11:12:09Z beaky: what is it like to work in the software industry 2016-11-04T11:12:48Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-11-04T11:13:53Z dwc: In software industry, HERE not invents YOU! 2016-11-04T11:14:06Z beaky: ah 2016-11-04T11:14:08Z raydeejay: it's like selling your soul to Satan, but more painful 2016-11-04T11:18:20Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-04T11:27:02Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T11:27:26Z varjag: it's pretty ok 2016-11-04T11:27:42Z varjag: the pay is good, the work isn't too hard 2016-11-04T11:29:44Z varjag: and for every story of burnout you hear, there are 30x people quietly slacking along 2016-11-04T11:30:05Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T11:30:33Z wispy: where is the emacs init.el for lispbox..i'd like to add scheme to the start. been looking for it but not in the lispbox folder. i have other emacs separate from lispbox 2016-11-04T11:30:35Z flip214: which are hated by their hard-working colleagues because they don't help in any way 2016-11-04T11:30:37Z raydeejay: popularity, of quietlu slacking around in this case, is a metric of popularity 2016-11-04T11:30:43Z raydeejay: nothing else 2016-11-04T11:31:25Z varjag: it was a bit tongue in cheek 2016-11-04T11:31:55Z wispy: sounds leisurely, sorry to interupt, but has anyone modified their lispbox (if they use it) to include scheme? 2016-11-04T11:31:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-04T11:32:23Z Dan1973: it's a good job. You dont freeze to death in winters, you dont get dehidrated and burned in the summer, pays good and in many cases is interesting 2016-11-04T11:32:35Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-04T11:33:11Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T11:33:20Z Dan1973: and there are many job oprtunites, so you can aspire for more and more interesting positions 2016-11-04T11:35:05Z varjag: wispy: most people use slime with lisp here 2016-11-04T11:35:12Z varjag: have no idea what lispbox is actually 2016-11-04T11:35:36Z Dan1973: a prepackaged Emacs, i guess it uses slime but i wouldnt know 2016-11-04T11:35:38Z Dan1973: for sure 2016-11-04T11:35:52Z wispy: just read the git. seems lispbox starts emacs with own config to run slime, so i guess i can't do what i want 2016-11-04T11:35:54Z varjag: ok.. 2016-11-04T11:36:00Z ww_listening quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T11:36:05Z wispy: thanks anyway. 2016-11-04T11:36:12Z phadthai: wispy: #scheme may be a better place to ask for scheme related questions 2016-11-04T11:36:29Z phadthai: but I know that slime can be used with some scheme implementations 2016-11-04T11:36:31Z wispy: i already did. little bit of both worlds. 2016-11-04T11:36:57Z wispy: so i need to install separately and not as aprt of lispbox 2016-11-04T11:38:12Z ghard joined #lisp 2016-11-04T11:38:16Z ChoHag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T11:38:37Z beaky: hmm lispbox sounds interesting 2016-11-04T11:38:55Z beaky: is that like racket 2016-11-04T11:41:28Z pipping: beaky: you're probably already at a point where it doesn't do anything for you that you can't do yourself 2016-11-04T11:43:16Z pipping: beaky: it's more convenient when someone comes in and says "I heard of CL and would like to try it out" to be able to say "download this single item" rather than "please follow the following ten steps". but once you feel comfortable with cl, slime, and emacs, you're far less likely to need it 2016-11-04T11:43:26Z beaky: ah 2016-11-04T11:43:41Z pipping: (you might still find it convenient if you find yourself stuck on another machine without anything on it and need to get going quickly, I guess) 2016-11-04T11:44:20Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-11-04T11:51:19Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-11-04T11:51:39Z JuanDaugherty: beaky the software industry is just like the capitalist workplace in other industries but accentuated because IT is pure labor 2016-11-04T11:52:04Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. intellectual property or service 2016-11-04T11:53:40Z JuanDaugherty: consequently there's an unusually high burn out rate, not generally observed in professions 2016-11-04T11:54:03Z JuanDaugherty: at least as far as people actually doing, executing said labor 2016-11-04T11:54:41Z JuanDaugherty: but beside that one big shitty it's mostly good feels 2016-11-04T11:55:52Z JuanDaugherty: in some locales the fact that it's intellectual activity also runs against the local culture 2016-11-04T11:56:21Z JuanDaugherty: so two shitties the big and lil 2016-11-04T11:56:46Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T11:59:57Z andrei_chiffa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:00:19Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:00:56Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-11-04T12:02:09Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:03:17Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:04:09Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:04:48Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:05:03Z subBunny left #lisp 2016-11-04T12:05:04Z leo_song quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-04T12:05:38Z wispy quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-11-04T12:07:31Z Cymew: Is lispbox around still? I was living with the delusion it had been abandoned. 2016-11-04T12:07:52Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:08:13Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:08:21Z Cymew: Now look at that. It has a c-l.net page and all. 2016-11-04T12:11:51Z dwc: "TODO Compile on Mac OS X 10.4, for compatability" 2016-11-04T12:12:09Z dwc: I think that one can get removed ;-) 2016-11-04T12:12:20Z Cymew: Is that version old? I guess it is. 2016-11-04T12:12:37Z turing_vm joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:13:14Z dwc: "The Mac OS X version currently requires OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard." 2016-11-04T12:13:19Z dwc: 2011 2016-11-04T12:14:01Z Cymew: I don't follow along with the bizarre naming scheme Apple uses, but that 2011 looked omnious. 2016-11-04T12:14:07Z newcup joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:14:13Z Cymew: But, it could just be the webpage. 2016-11-04T12:14:25Z dwc: Yeah, dunno 2016-11-04T12:14:47Z Cymew: lispbox.sh looks odd. It contains a SBCL_HOME but tries to start ccl and dumps me in the debugger. 2016-11-04T12:14:56Z nisstyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T12:15:26Z dwc: When I was trying to get going I decided to just do it myself. A bit of work but not that much, really. 2016-11-04T12:16:58Z dwc: Cymew: I would guess there are a number of things like that. Probably nothing that's hard to fix/update, if you are so inclined. 2016-11-04T12:17:07Z Cymew: I actually con't understand lispbox.sh and why it tries to start ccl. 2016-11-04T12:17:12Z dwc: But I'm just guessing 2016-11-04T12:17:19Z Cymew: Well. It looks like a neat idea. 2016-11-04T12:17:34Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:17:46Z Cymew: But, like you I can probably set up a CL env from parts in my sleep just as fast. 2016-11-04T12:18:00Z dwc: Yeah, it seems like a great thing to point newbies at, if it were updated 2016-11-04T12:18:17Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:18:36Z dwc: not sure why ccl instead of sbcl, but whatever 2016-11-04T12:18:55Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:19:12Z Cymew: The problem with bundling sbcl/ccl/slime/emacs is of course that if one of them changes... 2016-11-04T12:19:58Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:20:03Z Cymew: ccl have some nice qualities. I use sbcl mostly myself, but I know it's well regarded. I sometimes test stuff on it, just beacause. 2016-11-04T12:20:50Z dwc: yeah, same. sbcl mostly, but I have ccl mostly for testing 2016-11-04T12:21:22Z dwc: I keep thinking I'll do something with their awesome cocoa bridge, but I haven't yet 2016-11-04T12:23:14Z Cymew: Some MacOS thingie? 2016-11-04T12:23:33Z dwc: yeah, nice integration with the mac gui 2016-11-04T12:23:52Z dwc: but I'm not much of a gui person 2016-11-04T12:24:24Z Cymew: Me neither 2016-11-04T12:24:32Z Cymew: That reminds me of the McCLIM mail I got that mentioned a tutorial. Might be fun to check out. 2016-11-04T12:24:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:27:53Z Cymew: Ah, it is not done yet. I guess I will not become a gui person this week either. 2016-11-04T12:29:37Z Cymew: dwc: I guess you have heard of https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/mcclim ? 2016-11-04T12:30:25Z dwc: I have heard of it, for sure. 2016-11-04T12:31:08Z Cymew: I realized my statements might be a bit without a context withot that knowledge... 2016-11-04T12:31:27Z Cymew: s/withot/without/ 2016-11-04T12:31:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:31:37Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:34:45Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:37:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:41:42Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-11-04T12:42:34Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:42:55Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:43:07Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:47:20Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:53:11Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:54:44Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-11-04T12:57:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-04T12:58:53Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:02:19Z Xach finds a delightful reference to #+aix in some code 2016-11-04T13:02:34Z Cymew: Quaint. 2016-11-04T13:05:07Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:07:03Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:10:00Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:10:57Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:13:21Z Jameser quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-11-04T13:14:32Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:14:58Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:17:44Z gz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:18:29Z gz_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:23:11Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:23:26Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:23:38Z przl joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:24:03Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:26:01Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:26:58Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:28:01Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:28:05Z rpg_: Is there a way to get a backtrace from swank errors to debug a SLIME problem? 2016-11-04T13:28:09Z rpg_ is now known as rpg 2016-11-04T13:28:34Z Shinmera: Cymew: Lispbox may be dead, but there's Portacle now: https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ 2016-11-04T13:30:49Z _death: rpg: (setq swank::*debug-swank-backend* t swank::*debug-on-swank-protocol-error* t) 2016-11-04T13:30:59Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:31:04Z rpg: _death: Thanks! 2016-11-04T13:32:04Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T13:32:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:32:16Z _death: rpg: had to use it the other day.. but my fix was shallow as I didn't care to understand the actual details of the problem 2016-11-04T13:32:52Z rpg: actually looks like my bug straddles the two sides: I get an error in slime-edit-definition-cont 2016-11-04T13:33:24Z _death: rpg: ah, so it's a different issue.. mine was relation to autodoc/arglists 2016-11-04T13:33:29Z _death: *related 2016-11-04T13:34:01Z rpg: Looks like I have something bad stuck in the stack of definitions 2016-11-04T13:35:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:35:40Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:36:32Z rpg: (:error "Error: not finished with blah blah blah") is in the xrefs. 2016-11-04T13:37:38Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:39:12Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:42:00Z beaky: hello 2016-11-04T13:42:00Z beaky: does LOOP have something like c's continue statement (which unconditionally jumps to the enclosing loop body to the next iteration) 2016-11-04T13:42:16Z turing_vm: I don't think so 2016-11-04T13:42:22Z beaky: :< 2016-11-04T13:42:48Z turing_vm: You can write a own macro 2016-11-04T13:42:57Z rpg: At the expense of possibly being trollish, I think ITERATE does. Will check... 2016-11-04T13:43:31Z rpg: yup: NEXT-ITERATION 2016-11-04T13:44:18Z rpg: You might be able to use a label to get the right thing to happen but... ugh. 2016-11-04T13:44:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:45:00Z _death: usually there's a better way to describe what you want to do, so I don't miss continue 2016-11-04T13:45:02Z turing_vm: Yes 2016-11-04T13:45:32Z rpg: _death: If the LOOP conditionals weren't such a trainwreck it would be easier.... 2016-11-04T13:47:34Z MetaHertz quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.7)) 2016-11-04T13:48:20Z jackdaniel: top-level symbols in DO are tags, so you may use goto :p 2016-11-04T13:48:38Z beaky: wow i love ITERATE 2016-11-04T13:49:37Z jackdaniel: (do () () (print "a") (go end) (print "b") end) 2016-11-04T13:49:40Z EvW1 quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-11-04T13:51:26Z flip214: jackdaniel: you can use integers, too. (do () ... 10 (print "hello world") (go 10) ) 2016-11-04T13:51:30Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:52:12Z jackdaniel: oh, didn't know that 2016-11-04T13:52:13Z jackdaniel: thanks 2016-11-04T13:52:19Z jackdaniel: spec tagbody 2016-11-04T13:52:28Z jackdaniel: clhs tagbody 2016-11-04T13:52:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_tagbod.htm 2016-11-04T13:54:02Z rpg continues his ITERATE evangelism 2016-11-04T13:54:09Z creat joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:54:42Z rpg: beaky: I just got tired of reading my colleagues' code that all looked like this (loop for do ) 2016-11-04T13:55:21Z beaky: yes im not a huge fan of the do form too 2016-11-04T13:55:29Z Xach is reading some IF*-heavy code lately 2016-11-04T13:55:31Z rpg: No one could deal with LOOP's IF, so if there was a conditional, the whole body of the code went in a DO with a LET or PROGN. 2016-11-04T13:56:26Z rpg: Xach: Do you like or dislike? I am of two minds. COND is not something I would hold up as a great example of readability.... 2016-11-04T13:56:34Z Xach: Hate. 2016-11-04T13:56:43Z rpg: IF + PROGN is pretty horrible, too. 2016-11-04T13:56:56Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:57:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:57:18Z flip214: rpg: I'm a fan of ITERATE, too. 2016-11-04T13:57:25Z Xach: Strong sense of "I lost debates during standardization, but I am right, so screw you guys" 2016-11-04T13:57:33Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-04T13:57:41Z Xach: carried out over 30 years 2016-11-04T13:57:45Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-04T13:57:58Z Sigyn quit (Quit: Can we drop the ‘artificial intelligence’? It’s a bit like me calling you a meat-based processing system.) 2016-11-04T13:58:04Z rpg: Xach: you probably read about as much CL as anyone. Is there a way of writing conditionals you think best? 2016-11-04T13:58:08Z H4ns: john "i call the description of my fugly macro `style guide'" foderaro 2016-11-04T13:58:25Z Xach: rpg: I like standard stuff, so I use IF and COND. 2016-11-04T13:58:34Z Xach: And that's what I like to read. 2016-11-04T13:58:38Z Xach: If it's too complicated, break it up. 2016-11-04T13:58:54Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2016-11-04T13:59:04Z rpg: Xach: I am the same, but I can't say I love IF and COND. I love WHEN and UNLESS -- one-sided IFs really annoy me. 2016-11-04T13:59:24Z Xach: Oh, yeah, those are not good. WHEN, UNLESS, IF, COND, CASE, etc... 2016-11-04T13:59:51Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T13:59:59Z rpg: Sometimes there are just cases where COND + comment is the best I can do. 2016-11-04T14:00:58Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:01:07Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:04:16Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:04:21Z rpg: Xach: Looks like ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH might be helpful. Haven't used it myself. 2016-11-04T14:05:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:06:56Z dcs joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:08:25Z mrottenkolber: I have an IF, I have a PROGN, IF? PROGN? DEFUN time! 2016-11-04T14:08:31Z mrottenkolber: ;-) 2016-11-04T14:10:00Z mrottenkolber: I actually think if+progn is ok sometimes, it reads fine, I just find it hard to write 2016-11-04T14:10:18Z mrottenkolber: as in I will spent minutes trying to think of a way to avoid it 2016-11-04T14:11:10Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:11:33Z jackdaniel: (defmacro defun-if (name args (&body body1) (&body body2)) `(defun ,name (test ,@args) (if test (progn ,@body1) (progn ,@body2)))) ; mrottenkolber: ← ? ;) 2016-11-04T14:12:18Z dlowe: with a name like defun-if, I would expect it only to define the function if some condition were true 2016-11-04T14:12:40Z atgreen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T14:12:50Z jackdaniel: hm, defun-if* ? ^_^ 2016-11-04T14:13:44Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T14:15:52Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T14:16:50Z prole joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:16:58Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:18:09Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-11-04T14:20:00Z Rumbles quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-11-04T14:21:07Z Rambles joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:22:21Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:23:03Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:24:06Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T14:24:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-11-04T14:25:23Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-11-04T14:25:44Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:27:16Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:28:59Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:29:30Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-04T14:29:41Z raydeejay: def-if-fun 2016-11-04T14:31:20Z Dan1973: is there any way to get the precision of get-internal-real-time in units/ second or whatever ? 2016-11-04T14:32:39Z Xach: Dan1973: yes! internal-time-units-per-second 2016-11-04T14:32:42Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:32:43Z Dan1973: danke 2016-11-04T14:32:49Z Xach: it's been a while since a question was so literally answerable 2016-11-04T14:34:25Z raydeejay: that implied exaggeration :) 2016-11-04T14:34:51Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:36:42Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:41:36Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T14:43:09Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:48:22Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T14:49:21Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:51:03Z pmicossi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:51:33Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T14:52:03Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-04T14:54:06Z LiamH quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-04T14:54:07Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T14:54:16Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:56:45Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-04T14:59:04Z antoszka quit (Changing host) 2016-11-04T14:59:04Z antoszka joined #lisp 2016-11-04T14:59:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T15:01:52Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:02:25Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:04:52Z k4rtik joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:10:02Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:13:16Z jcowan joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:13:47Z zeissoctopus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T15:15:35Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:16:47Z woe` joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:17:28Z woe` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T15:17:43Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-11-04T15:20:55Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:28:55Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:29:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:30:00Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:34:32Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T15:37:35Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-04T15:37:40Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T15:37:43Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:42:17Z andrei_chiffa_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:43:15Z andrei_chiffa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T15:45:50Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:47:09Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-11-04T15:49:36Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:51:17Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:57:05Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-04T15:58:38Z Xach: Hmm, if I have a thread that has rebound some global, is there a way in CCL to see the "real" global value? 2016-11-04T15:58:43Z Xach: From any thread? 2016-11-04T15:59:20Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:02:32Z jcowan: There might be an implementation-dependent way, but binding a dynamic variable changes the value in the symbol-value slot, making all previous values inaccessible. 2016-11-04T16:03:09Z jcowan: By the same token, (let ((x 32)) (let ((x 45)) ...) does not provide any way within ... to find the outer value of x. 2016-11-04T16:03:26Z Xach: That is why I am asking specifically about threading and CCL. 2016-11-04T16:03:41Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T16:03:42Z jcowan: Ah, sorry. 2016-11-04T16:04:02Z Xach: In Allegro CL, it is available with SI:GLOBAL-SYMBOL-VALUE. But it may be that Allegro's threading system makes it possible but CCL's does not. 2016-11-04T16:05:49Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T16:06:08Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:10:07Z jcowan: You could do it by convention using CCL's DEFSTATIC. 2016-11-04T16:10:22Z jcowan: (defparameter *foo* ...) 2016-11-04T16:10:29Z jcowan: (defstatic **foo** *foo*) 2016-11-04T16:12:21Z ismed_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:12:21Z ismed quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-11-04T16:12:23Z ismed_ is now known as ismed 2016-11-04T16:12:30Z Xach: I'm working on a portability layer to run some Allegro code, so I have to work with what's in the Allegro code. But defstatic will help translate allegro's defvar-nonbindable. 2016-11-04T16:14:48Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:15:48Z Shinmera: Xach: horrible idea: launch a new thread and make it stash away the value it gets in a closure-referenced variable, then join the thread. 2016-11-04T16:16:00Z Reinisch joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:16:31Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T16:16:41Z ismed quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-11-04T16:16:41Z ismed_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:16:43Z ismed_ is now known as ismed 2016-11-04T16:17:15Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-11-04T16:17:35Z Xach: I suspect (ccl:symbol-value-in-process ccl::*initial-process*) might be one way. I wonder if there's a non-:: way. 2016-11-04T16:18:25Z moei joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:19:35Z pipping: ccl uses single colons sparingly 2016-11-04T16:20:06Z ismed quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-11-04T16:20:06Z ismed_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:20:08Z ismed_ is now known as ismed 2016-11-04T16:20:10Z msb joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:20:55Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:22:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:22:11Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T16:22:30Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T16:22:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:23:00Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T16:25:51Z Xach: well, it's a mixed bag. 2016-11-04T16:26:40Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T16:28:53Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-11-04T16:29:00Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:29:38Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Can you access the current process in global scope and stash it away in your own *initial-process* variable? 2016-11-04T16:29:46Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:30:33Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-11-04T16:31:07Z vtomole joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:31:13Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T16:31:27Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-11-04T16:31:36Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-11-04T16:32:28Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-04T16:32:51Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:33:42Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:34:23Z ismed quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-11-04T16:34:23Z ismed_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:34:25Z ismed_ is now known as ismed 2016-11-04T16:35:53Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:36:09Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:37:01Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T16:40:33Z ismed quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T16:40:44Z ismed joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:48:14Z ismed_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:48:14Z ismed quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-11-04T16:48:16Z ismed_ is now known as ismed 2016-11-04T16:51:47Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:51:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T16:52:54Z turing_vm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T16:52:58Z ismed quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T16:53:38Z beach joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:53:51Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-11-04T16:55:25Z axion: Hey beach 2016-11-04T16:57:04Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T16:57:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-11-04T16:59:57Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:00:27Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-11-04T17:03:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-11-04T17:03:33Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T17:03:56Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T17:05:24Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:05:26Z beach: In a text editor for Common Lisp code, what would be a good way of showing that an attempt to read (i.e., parse) some form results in a condition END-OF-FILE being signaled? 2016-11-04T17:06:02Z jcowan: make the monitor explode 2016-11-04T17:06:07Z turing_vm joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:06:37Z Shinmera: beach: In what context? In the context of syntax-highlighting/linting of the editor, or the inferior implementation evaluating/parsing a code snippet that is sent to be compiled or evaluated? 2016-11-04T17:06:59Z beach: The former. 2016-11-04T17:07:11Z raydeejay: make it black on red background? 2016-11-04T17:07:18Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:07:25Z Shinmera: I would highlight the line with either a red background or a red sign on the side (in the line numbering) 2016-11-04T17:07:39Z axion: I was going to say paren has a red background face 2016-11-04T17:07:52Z raydeejay: *then* make the monitor explode :) 2016-11-04T17:08:14Z raydeejay: actually... white on red background works better, I guess 2016-11-04T17:08:21Z beach: axion: Ah, not a bad idea, because then I can show nested parse attempts that result in EOF as well. 2016-11-04T17:09:12Z axion: Shinmera: welcome back 2016-11-04T17:09:50Z pmicossi quit (Quit: going home) 2016-11-04T17:10:06Z Shinmera: axion: I'm not sure yet if I'm back permanently again. 2016-11-04T17:10:14Z axion: heh 2016-11-04T17:10:32Z beach: Though, things other than parentheses can result in EOF, but I guess not very many. 2016-11-04T17:11:02Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:11:33Z Shinmera: Couldn't an EOF occur for any reason whatsoever due to reader macros? 2016-11-04T17:11:55Z beach: Yes, of course. 2016-11-04T17:12:14Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:12:19Z beach: I am just thinking of cases with respect to the standard readtable. 2016-11-04T17:12:38Z Shinmera: How about highlighting the last point at which a reader macro or token has been begun to be read? 2016-11-04T17:13:54Z beach: Yes, that's the idea axion had. The question is how to highlight. I was checking whether a red background would make the problem obvious. For an opening parenthesis it would be. 2016-11-04T17:14:04Z turing_vm quit (Quit: turingaway!) 2016-11-04T17:14:24Z beach: The other cases are single and multiple escapes, and that will be obvious too. 2016-11-04T17:14:35Z Shinmera: I would say something like what Slime does for compiler errors is a good idea. Highlight or underline to make it stand out and then offer the error/condition in a context menu on hover. 2016-11-04T17:14:46Z raydeejay: I hate that 2016-11-04T17:14:51Z raydeejay: having to move my mouse to read it 2016-11-04T17:15:00Z axion: I would signal some condition in the editor that draws the frame red too, or some other means to make it extremely obvious that form manipulation may not work. 2016-11-04T17:15:26Z axion: s/frame/border/ 2016-11-04T17:15:50Z axion: Perhaps with a static message in the message area 2016-11-04T17:16:25Z beach: I do plan to have a narrow border where additional information can be shown, for instance a little arrow when the indentation is wrong. 2016-11-04T17:16:29Z axion: Because the error location may not even be on-screen 2016-11-04T17:17:02Z axion: Ah perfect 2016-11-04T17:17:19Z beach: Well, it typically is, in that the error will happen as a result of a keystroke, and the problem will be near where that keystroke happened. 2016-11-04T17:19:03Z beach: The user types a left parenthesis in a context where everything is balanced. Surely, that left parenthesis will be part of an top-level expression that is not properly terminated. 2016-11-04T17:19:24Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T17:19:36Z beach: But yeah, it may also result from loading a file that is not balanced. 2016-11-04T17:20:23Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:22:09Z ismed joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:25:08Z beach: OK, so red background at the place where the unsuccessful parse started, and some global indication that an end-of-file was encountered. With the global indication, the user will know something is wrong. Then one can imagine a command to jump to the place where the unsuccessful parse started. 2016-11-04T17:25:55Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T17:28:51Z add^_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:29:35Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-11-04T17:29:44Z beach: Shinmera: I am hoping to blur the two aspects, and allow the underlying implementation to partially (minimally?) compile the expressions on the fly. I am not sure whether that is going to be practical, but I hope so. 2016-11-04T17:32:04Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:32:30Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:32:53Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:37:48Z raydeejay: maybe it shouldn't let the user introduce unbalanced parens by default in the first place? 2016-11-04T17:37:57Z raydeejay: it is a lisp editor, after all 2016-11-04T17:38:24Z Shinmera: beach: What would that be beneficial for? 2016-11-04T17:38:26Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:38:32Z beach: I am thinking that it would be could to encourage something like paredit, but not to require it. 2016-11-04T17:38:47Z beach: Shinmera: Semantic analysis, indentation, etc. 2016-11-04T17:38:50Z Shinmera: beach: Also, I would definitely want to be able to have a separate lisp process to compile and evaluate things to than the one running the editor. 2016-11-04T17:40:05Z raydeejay: beach: I think it's appropiate to do it the other way around, and default to paredit-like behaviour 2016-11-04T17:40:24Z beach: raydeejay: Yes, probably so. 2016-11-04T17:40:28Z raydeejay: well, you probably meant that with "encourage" xD 2016-11-04T17:44:31Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:47:56Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:49:18Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-11-04T17:50:19Z pichar joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:50:40Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T17:52:05Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:54:10Z clintm joined #lisp 2016-11-04T17:55:04Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T17:55:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T17:56:12Z clintm: might be time to update the topic, for SBCL if nothing else. 2016-11-04T18:02:32Z mrottenkolber: So I have accumulated a bunch of compiler warning (namely unused variables) for which I don’t have a solution (can’t declare ignorable inside LOOP). How does one deal with that? 2016-11-04T18:02:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:05:31Z Xach: mrottenkolber: loop variables that end up unused? 2016-11-04T18:05:45Z mrottenkolber: Xach: yep 2016-11-04T18:05:53Z Xach: mrottenkolber: is the loop-only destructuring feature of NIL helpful? 2016-11-04T18:06:07Z Xach: mrottenkolber: that is, a loop variable named NIL is ignored. 2016-11-04T18:06:31Z mrottenkolber: Xach: I actually need ignorable, its used but not always. 2016-11-04T18:06:36Z Xach: ok 2016-11-04T18:06:52Z mrottenkolber: but cool hint nevertheless, I didn’t know that 2016-11-04T18:07:13Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:08:10Z mrottenkolber: that gets me rid of one warning actually 2016-11-04T18:08:26Z ismed quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:08:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:09:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:11:32Z mrottenkolber: I guess rewrite the loop to do the destructuring in a form 2016-11-04T18:14:00Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:14:13Z elimik31 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:16:25Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:16:38Z mrottenkolber: Xach: on a second look that hint was actually very helpful! thanks :O 2016-11-04T18:17:31Z Xach: i gotta update lisptips.com with that info!! 2016-11-04T18:17:46Z kp125 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:18:05Z rjid quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-11-04T18:18:38Z kp125 left #lisp 2016-11-04T18:18:58Z mrottenkolber: Xach: I just decided I prefer to write () instead of nil in these cases, makes the intention clear and almost obvious imho 2016-11-04T18:19:07Z Xach: looks all right 2016-11-04T18:20:26Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:20:53Z ismed joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:21:11Z eter joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:23:08Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:26:02Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:27:39Z klltkr: Hello all 2016-11-04T18:28:36Z shymega quit (Excess Flood) 2016-11-04T18:28:36Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T18:28:59Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:29:08Z __shymega__ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:32:25Z rumbler31: I know this is probably old hat to many of you but I had to share since its a first for me... 2016-11-04T18:33:00Z rumbler31: I've been writing code to consume an audio stream hosted on a network device and play it using portaudio on osx 2016-11-04T18:33:31Z rumbler31: I got that to work, and I wanted to test my code on windows instead, so I now have that code running on an image in windows, while usin gmy osx emacs environment to continue iterating 2016-11-04T18:34:03Z rumbler31: while the windows image is of course using portaudio for that platforms audio io, obviously not groundbreaking but I feel like I'm cheating 2016-11-04T18:34:23Z rumbler31: *using swank 2016-11-04T18:34:34Z Xach: Cool 2016-11-04T18:34:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-11-04T18:35:35Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:35:55Z rumbler31: i was worried it would be a hassle but it really Just Works*tm 2016-11-04T18:36:29Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:38:48Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:38:52Z leo_song quit (K-Lined) 2016-11-04T18:39:05Z ismed left #lisp 2016-11-04T18:40:01Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-11-04T18:40:57Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T18:45:04Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:45:26Z MetaHertz quit (Quit: Всем пока! // Goodbye everyone!) 2016-11-04T18:46:11Z ewiltshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T18:48:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:49:13Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:50:45Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T18:50:56Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:53:12Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T18:53:41Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:54:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-11-04T18:54:54Z ASau quit (Read error: 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2016-11-04T19:43:41Z mrottenkolber: commits are free 2016-11-04T19:46:43Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T19:46:52Z TMA: ebrasca: you can fix it in the old comit by rewriting history (which is only advisable before you make the original history public, otherwise you create confusion among your users) 2016-11-04T19:50:37Z ebrasca: thanks you. 2016-11-04T19:51:13Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-11-04T19:52:13Z andrei_chiffa_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-11-04T19:52:18Z ewiltshi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-11-04T19:53:21Z ebrasca: is "Fix some grammar." good englis? 2016-11-04T19:53:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T19:54:38Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-11-04T19:54:38Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T19:55:01Z ebrasca: wrong chat. 2016-11-04T19:59:52Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2016-11-04T20:03:25Z Guest26724 joined #lisp 2016-11-04T20:04:13Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-11-04T20:09:28Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 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possible for no clashes between standard HTML tags and Common Lisp symbols? 2016-11-04T21:35:44Z kamog` joined #lisp 2016-11-04T21:36:04Z phoe_: Cthulhux: https://common-lisp.net/project/xhtmlambda/introduction.html#XHTMΛ%20Syntax 2016-11-04T21:36:07Z phoe_: this one, sorry 2016-11-04T21:36:08Z phoe_: wild space appeared 2016-11-04T21:36:57Z fiddlerwoaroof_: The tags are probably defined inside a package that doesn't import COMMON-LISP. 2016-11-04T21:37:44Z kamog quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-04T21:38:27Z fiddlerwoaroof_: You usually use them like (<:html (<:head ...) (<:body ...)) 2016-11-04T21:39:10Z phoe_: fiddlerwoaroof_: I don't see a single "<:" in that manual 2016-11-04T21:39:59Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Hmm, that's how I remember using it, I think the with-html-syntax-output hides it 2016-11-04T21:39:59Z fiddlerwoaroof_: 2016-11-04T21:40:58Z phoe_: actually 2016-11-04T21:41:03Z phoe_: from what I see 2016-11-04T21:41:20Z phoe_: the standard set of HTML tags may actually not clash with CL symbols at all. 2016-11-04T21:41:50Z isoraqathedh: HTML5 has a ton of extra tags though. 2016-11-04T21:43:54Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-11-04T21:44:00Z andrei_chiffa joined #lisp 2016-11-04T21:44:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-11-04T21:44:49Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-11-04T21:45:10Z Cthulhux: hm thanks 2016-11-04T21:48:19Z phoe_: I can see a single clash, #'TIME. 2016-11-04T21:49:44Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-11-04T21:50:36Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-11-04T21:50:48Z isoraqathedh: Okay, I found the overlaps. 2016-11-04T21:51:05Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-11-04T21:51:36Z isoraqathedh: TIME and MAP are the only two. 2016-11-04T21:55:21Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-11-04T21:55:35Z vicfred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-11-04T21:56:00Z phoe_: Hm. 2016-11-04T21:56:05Z phoe_: Bearable. 2016-11-04T21:56:11Z isoraqathedh: http://paste.lisp.org/display/330338 2016-11-04T21:56:23Z isoraqathedh: The (extremely quick-and-dirty) code that I used to determine this. 2016-11-04T21:56:26Z phoe_: Yes. 2016-11-04T21:56:29Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-11-04T21:56:41Z phoe_: But then again - you could just avoid using the HTML5 tags. 2016-11-04T21:56:49Z isoraqathedh: MAP is not an HTML tag, I think. 2016-11-04T21:56:55Z phoe_: These are much less useful than TIME and #'MAP. 2016-11-04T21:56:55Z isoraqathedh: It defines an imagemap. 2016-11-04T21:57:06Z phoe_: Oh wait. 2016-11-04T21:57:13Z phoe_: Hm. This might be useful. 2016-11-04T21:57:31Z isoraqathedh: Ack, I meant to say that MAP is not an HTML5 tag. 2016-11-04T21:57:46Z phoe_: Wait. 2016-11-04T21:57:47Z vicfred quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-04T21:57:48Z phoe_: It's not? 2016-11-04T21:57:49Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-11-04T21:57:50Z isoraqathedh: Yeah, it's an HTML4 thing. 2016-11-04T21:57:59Z phoe_: Welp, so we can ignore it. 2016-11-04T21:58:11Z isoraqathedh: Well, by that I mean that it is also in HTML5… 2016-11-04T21:58:14Z phoe_: :P 2016-11-04T21:58:20Z phoe_: Yes, I know. 2016-11-04T21:58:41Z vicfred joined #lisp 2016-11-04T21:58:42Z isoraqathedh: But I don't think #'map is very much used – at least I tend to use mapcar a whole lot more, say. 2016-11-04T21:59:24Z phoe_: If I wanted to choose between the two, I'd rather let #'MAP stay. 2016-11-04T21:59:35Z phoe_: And write a HTML-MAP macro for this case. 2016-11-04T21:59:56Z phoe_: Image map is a pretty rare use case in webdev, too. 2016-11-04T22:00:03Z isoraqathedh: This is true. 2016-11-04T22:00:16Z isoraqathedh: I mean, you can probably get away with HTML-TIME too. 2016-11-04T22:00:20Z phoe_: Same with a TIME html tag. I've never seen it used. 2016-11-04T22:00:22Z phoe_: ^ 2016-11-04T22:00:24Z phoe_: Yes, exactly. 2016-11-04T22:00:32Z phoe_: So all of HTML5 is importable. 2016-11-04T22:00:39Z isoraqathedh: It's kind of unsatisfying, I want to say. 2016-11-04T22:00:54Z phoe_: clhs satisfies 2016-11-04T22:00:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm 2016-11-04T22:00:55Z isoraqathedh: Isn't convention-based prefixing the thing that packages are made to solve? 2016-11-04T22:00:55Z jacek joined #lisp 2016-11-04T22:01:09Z isoraqathedh: Or remove, rather. 2016-11-04T22:01:13Z phoe_: isoraqathedh: not if you want to import your stuff into one package. 2016-11-04T22:01:18Z coyo joined #lisp 2016-11-04T22:01:41Z coyo is now known as Guest62014 2016-11-04T22:01:41Z isoraqathedh: Eh, I'll take the package nickname < over that. 2016-11-04T22:02:03Z jacek quit (Client Quit) 2016-11-04T22:02:04Z phoe_: Sure. Just - we started with the idea of importing CL symbols and HTML tags together and seeing if they fit. 2016-11-04T22:02:06Z phoe_: Well, they fit. 2016-11-04T22:02:12Z phoe_: Almost. 2016-11-04T22:02:34Z isoraqathedh: Just a bit of old cruft that aren't in common usage. 2016-11-04T22:02:50Z phoe_: So you could solve a problem of them not fitting and use different packages, or you could solve a problem of them being in different packages and make the unfitting parts have different names. 2016-11-04T22:02:53Z isoraqathedh: I would say that